Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII, Chapter XXIV and Chapter XXV.
© Copyright 2018 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
**
** THE PFINGSTON / HARWOOD PODCASTS ( CONTINUED )
**
** BRIAN FRISBY IS TALKING TO OTHER HOTSHOT CREWS
** ABOUT WHAT REALLY HAPPENED AT THE YARNELL FIRE.
Apparently, Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby is sick and tired of beiing told he can’t discuss what he knows ( and has ALWAYS known ) about the Yarnell Hill Fire.
According to Deborah Pfingston and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood… Frisby spoke to an entire California Hotshot crew just last summer about what REALLY happened in Yarnell, and whatever he told them was enough for them to realize the SAIT investigation was a total FARCE.
In their ‘introduction’ to their PODCAST Episode 8, published just 5 weeks ago on April 24, 2019, Harwood ‘reads’ an email they received from one of the firefighters on this Hotshot crew that Frisby spoke to.
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What Happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
PODCAST Episode 08: Your Changes, Our Changes
Published: April 24, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-8-Your-Changes–Our-Changes-e3qqcb
Episode 8, Part 1
+0:48
———————————————————————————————————–
Doug Harwood: We have a comment from a firefighter on a Hotshot crew in California. He says…
“My crew was lucky enough to work with Blue Ridge last summer. On one of the slow days the Blue Ridge supe ( Brian Frisby ) took time to speak to our whole crew about the events of that day. Between THAT conversation, and listening to your podcasts, I’m appalled by the FAILURE of our original investigation. Not only was it an injustice to the perished firefighters, it’s a disservice to our current firefighters as well. How are we supposed to learn ANY lessons from the tragedy if we don’t know exactly what happened?”
Doug Harwood: We want to thank that firefighter for his message.
Deborah Pfingston: Yes. Thank you so much.
———————————————————————————————————
And just for the sake of completeness…
Here again is that EMAIL that Joy Collura obtained showing Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby officially telling U.S. Forestry Service ‘Human Factors Specialist’ Joseph Harris that the “human factors” at the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire were defintely “off the charts”… and much of what happened that day HAS been “swept under the rug”…
———————————————————————————————————–
From: Frisby, Brian H -FS
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 10:08 AM
To: Harris, Joseph R -FS
Subject: Human Factors!
Good morning, Joe,
It sounds like you have had the opportunity to go through the Yarnell Hill staff ride and may have some questions about some of the human factors that contributed that day. Talking to ( Redacted ) it sound like the picture that is being painted is very different than what we remember. I have been invited to the operational staff ride on the 26th and 27th of this month, unfortunately any input is probably too late.
I can tell you that the human factors that day were off the charts.
We both know that the overall decision to leave the black was made by ( Eric Marsh ) but there was so much that went on that day that has been swept under the rug that may have affected the outcome.
I would love the opportunity to talk to you about it, I believe there is a lot to be learned from this event and if we are going to adopt this as an agency we need to get this right. Anyhow hope you and your family are doing well and I hope to hear from you. Thanks.
( USDA Logo ) ( U.S. Forestry Service Logo )
Brian Frisby
Blue Ridge IHC Superintendent
Coconino National Forest, Mogollon Rim Ranger District
p: 928-477-5023
c: ( Redacted )
bfrisby (at) fs.fed.us
8738 Ranger Road
Happy Jack, AZ 86024
http://www.fs.fed.us
( Twitter Icon ) ( Facebook Icon )
Caring for the land and serving people
———————————————————————————————————–
Oh yeah…I remember why I started down that road yesterday, I was giving a real world example to make the point that just like Shawna Legarza and Mike Dudley, I was offered the very same thing that they were offered to betray all of my values and morals as well.
But I can prove I am NOTHING like they are by the simple fact that I spent the first half of my career as a rock star and the entire second half never being promoted again. And that is because when I stood at the very same crossroads that they did, I choose the path they didn’t take. I found the hill that was worth dying on. They never did…fuck them and everyone like them.
Legarza and Dudley are really bad people who are putting wild land firefighters at an increased chance of dying on the line today because they failed to do the Right Thing. Legarza on the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster Staff Ride and the other management whore Dudley…who failed to do the right thing on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster Staff Ride. Like I wrote yesterday…they are both despicable human beings.
Oh…and one more thing. There is something I can do for the kids on the fire line today even though I failed to convince Legarza and her posse of sycophants and enablers that they needed to do the right thing for the kids on the fire line today.
I can tell them that the bodies of those hotshots who laid on the steep slope of Battlement Mesa surrounded by the brightly colored flagging that fluttered in the gentle breeze and bright sunshine on that beautiful day with clear blue skies…were really charred and blackened corpses who we referred to as crispy critters.
So…you shouldn’t ever be like them. No fuckin’ wildfire or shot of adrenaline is worth dying for…you should always go home to those who love you instead.
You guys know that JD moved us up to a new chapter, ey. Maybe not …
I carried over several of the Chapter XXVI posts on the YH Fire Staff Ride
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvii-here/ )
No…I didn’t know. But that actually begs a very interesting question. Does it matter? That isn’t intended to be a flippant question. I would like to know what you think? Does it matter?
Gary, you are the genuine person and nothing to fear for people that listen or read your comments. unless they are phoney. You will always stand the hero you are in the fire fighting profession–your comments and instruction will save many who will listen. Those that balk at wisdom are also those that perish and make disaster for those such as the young GMHS victims.
Some say they went willingly along with the dictates of Marsh and Steed and those commanding from above. Yet they would say they had the trust in the abilities of those that commanded them to their deaths. Sadly the young trust commanders such as we saw at Yarnell, yet their trust would destroy them and cause insufferable turmoil and heartbreak to the families and loved ones involved. Many broke down and cried as Zack Ashoor said he did in the bar when he heard the news. Maybe the heartbreak killed him, he died a young 29 soon after the ordeal. . I too had shed my share of tears and heartbreak for the situation, eventhough I had never personally known or associated with any of them. Zack did. Those who could not understand the magnitude of killing 17 young wild land fire fighters and the death of their bosses as well would not understand how all suffered from this event.
Even with all the awards given and the cover ups and support for a few that did not want the truth out, it does finally come down to the importance of continued hammering at those that have hidden the facts. Page after page of facts have been redacted and hidden. And certainly it has maintained the good image of the wild land fire fighting profession. And indeed there would be above 90% deserving the image. Yet to deny the truth that caused the Yarnell GMHS deaths is at the peril of lives of future wild land fire fighters.
Since I had a son that also died an untimely death similar to the carelessness that I saw at Yarnell, I can only applaud those men and women that have steadfastly revealed the facts and reasons for those deaths. Certainly WTKTT, Gary, RTS, Hondo, Woodsman, Jd,, Norb, Joy and many others here have educated me with facts and I am grateful knowing that the people that need to know will know the actual reason their loved ones were killed.
Respect is one thing but Respect of the truth is the only way to Heaven Mr. Hall or anyone that had anything to do with the Yarnell Fire of 2013 and the Tenderfoot Fire at Yarnell of 2015.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on May 1, 2019 at 9:53 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The reason that the Yarnell Hill Fire is not included on the Fireline Leadership
>> website and in that list is because it was an Arizona STATE Wildland Fire. All the
>> others are Federal fires.
>>
>> That is what the AZ Forestry Bill Boyd and OMNA International say…
And you BELIEVE them?
I thought you were smarter than that.
From PDF page 111 of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire Special Accident Investigation Report ( SAIR )…
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While the City of Prescott hosted the Granite Mountain IHC, it is CLEAR they were exclusively hired and trained as an Interagency Hotshot Crew. They operated within a much larger system, that of the NWCG where local, State and Federal firefighting agencies come together as part of the nation’s wildfire response.
————————————————————————————————–
From the actual Yarnell ‘wrongful death’ settlement agreement…
NOTE: These ‘actions’ were non-negotiable. It was the COURT saying what MUST be done…
————————————————————————————————–
Page 11 of 11 – Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
APPENDIX-A
What ASFD WILL do:
1. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will meet for a full day (8 hours) with the GMIHC families and their consultants/experts to review data and information and to answer questions posed by the families and their consultants/experts. Counsel for the State Forester and the survivors shall be present. To the extent possible,questions will be submitted in writing 2 weeks in advance of the meeting. This will be a facilitated learning process, and Forestry will provide a facilitator to assist with this experience. Plaintiffs may request that specific individuals from ASFD and others who were present during the Yarnell Hill Fire attend.
2. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will request a Lessons Learned product regarding the Yarnell Hill fire.
3. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will request that NWCG create a staff ride for the Yarnell Hill fire and will make its personnel and information it has collected available. In addition, ASFD will recommend that family members of the GMIHC crew be included in the process of developing the staff ride, and that NWCG review how this Fire relates to the Common Denominators in Fatality Fires and figure out if there is a common thread.
——————————————————————————————————
“ASFD will request that NWCG create a staff ride for the Yarnell Hill fire”
They did that ( as the court ordered them to do ).
The NWCG agreed… and ‘split no hairs’ about it being a STATE fire versus a FEDERAL one.
NWCG hired their usual staff-ride-development partner ‘Omna International’ to help the NWCG create the court-ordered Yarnell Hill Fire staff ride.
Omna International then, in turn, did their job and worked with NWCG to create the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride documents, curriculum… and executed on the plan.
To this day… ( and even at this moment )… ‘Omna International’ considers the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride that they developed FOR the NWCG to be one its premier accomplishments, along with the FOUR other wildland fatality Staff Rides they developed FOR the NWCG… and it is listed as such on their own website.
ALL of the ‘Staff Rides’ listed below, that were done by Omna International FOR the NWCG, are in the NWCG’s current ‘Library’ of staff rides… EXCEPT for the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride…
https://www.theomna.com/events.html
——————————————————————–
Mann Gulch Fire Staff Ride
South Canyon Fire Staff Ride
Dude Fire Staff Ride
Thirtymile Fire Staff Ride
Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride
——————————————————————–
I repeat… no one ‘split hairs’ about it being a STATE versus FEDERAL thing when the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride WAS developed by the NWCG.
It is/was ALREADY DONE, and the end product was ALREADY “FULLY ENDORSED” by the NWCG.
From the NWCG Leadership site’s own ‘About our Staff Rides’ page…
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/index.html
——————————————————————————————————
The Staff Ride
The intent of this resource is to provide a library of information on significant wildland fire events.
The NWCG Leadership Subcommittee is the sponsor for this resource.
——————————————————————————————————
Keyphrase: “a library of information on significant wildland fire events.”.
Nothing about STATE versus FED. Only “significant wildland fire events”.
So where is the ( already done, already endorsed ) NWCG Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride product?
Why is it MISSING?
That is a really, really, really good question. I know that technically RTS is right and that the YHF Disaster was a state versus federal fire and I am pretty sure all of the other fires listed were federal fires.
But that is probably because no state agency has ever invested the kind of money it takes to create a staff ride before now and this one was only done because of a court order.
I would also say that RTS’ take would get more traction in my brain 🧠 if this
https://www.nwcg.gov/wfldp/toolbox/staff-ride
was a federal website run by say…the USFS. But…that isn’t the case, it is a website run by the NWCG.
And secondly, and just as important is the value that the USFS places on its relationships with its partner agency. which certainly includes all of the individual state FIRE programs.
It is also possible that the omission of the YHF Disaster Staff Ride is just an oversight and a disconnect in the NWCG between somebody and their webmaster?
But…I am going to go with HAL 9000 busted their asses and caught them playing fast and loose with doing the Right Thing, which for some reason they find it so very hard to do? I think they are trying to forget all about the YARNELL HILL FIRE DISASTER and they are counting the days until everyone else does as well.
And I’m pretty sure that if it weren’t for this blog, they would already be there except for special occasions like the 1, 5, 10, 25. 50 and 100 💯 year anniversaries that frankly won’t be remembered or cared about by very many people.
I’d love to see the NWCG have to answer to the families… who fought HARD ( and WON ) to make SURE there was a nationally-available staff ride learning product for Yarnell… and watch NWCG try to bullshit THEM about why that already-done-and-endorsed-by-NWCG product is not ‘available’ on their own public facing portal(s).
Yep. I’d love to see the NWCG have to face the families and watch what happens when they tell them they simply do NOT consider Yarnell to be a “significant wildland fire event”, as per their own published criteria for staff ride products.
I think you actually nailed the truth.
The NWCG simply does not WANT anyone ‘talking’ about Yarnell on any kind of ongoing basis… and any other petty reasons they might give for NOT including the already-done-and-fully-endorsed staff ride product in their learning library are simply bullshit.
Well…here is my epiphany moment from when I woke up this morning. “The Families” are in full support of the NWCG not making the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride available to everyone on their website.
“The Families” have always been who the former Mrs. Eric Marsh and her posse say they are, meaning they are her friends and supporters.
Their staff ride, which they believe they own even though it was paid for by taxpayer money is being used by the powers that be in the way “The Families” want it to be used. And that is by a select group of WLF who take the course and agree with their production and if they don’t, they at least keep their opinions to themselves.
If it was put online through the NWCG Library Of Staff Rides, everyone could take the course and be free to not only critiquing how they created it, but to develop other more plausible alternatives to the company storyline and do so by using their own material and staff ride to do so.
Who would do such a thing? We would of course and we would be alone in doing so, but we have the talent, experience and brain power here on this blog to shred their fantasy fairy tale where the big bad fire appeared out of nowhere, took the crew because God called them home en masse and now they are where they are supposed to be because it was God’s will and so everything worked out fine in the end.
And they sure as hell don’t want anyone creating, publishing, or promoting any story other than that. This blog is the reason why the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride is only being made available to a select few in order to promolgate “The Big Lie.”
And Joy complained about my distasteful tactics in this asymmetrical, unconventional war. We are fighting a superpower who has all of the conventional weapons in the control of both the State of Arizona and the federal government to reward their cronies and punish those whom they perceive to be their enemies.
And they perceive their enemies to be anyone who doesn’t buy into their story line and support the Eric Marsh Foundation and their goal to make him into one of the most respected WLF leaders in history who died a true American Heroes death trying to save his crew from a disaster that wasn’t of their own making.
I am at the point that I actually feel pity for the former Mrs. Eric Marsh and her posse of enablers, friends and supporters. I wouldn’t like planning every day for the rest of my life doing everything I could, to make sure the real lessons of the Yarnell Hill Fire aren’t recognized or accepted and therefore could be used to help save WLF lives in the future from a clear and present danger. And that danger is lurking out there waiting to strike again…for the fourth time in history.
And that is because once (The El Cariso Hotshots under Gordon King in 1966 on the Loop Fire) was an anomaly, twice (The Mormon Lake Hotshots under Tony Czak in 1976 on the Battlement Creek Fire) was a coincidence, but the third time (The Granite Mountain Hotshots under Eric Marsh in 2013 on the Yarnell Hill Fire) is definitely a pattern.
I hope they name the fourth fire in history that kills hotshots due to the criminally negligenne, reckless decisions and subsequent actions in honor of the person who will own it…”The Eric and Amanda Marsh Legacy Fire.” It will be a fitting tribute to those who will truly deserve the recognition and distinction.
I am a self taught semi skilled web master just as long as I don’t have to write code. If they ever give me access to all of their digitized Staff Ride material, I will be very tempted to build my very own YHF Disaster Alternative and Truthful Staff Ride in my own Lessons Kearned Toolbox Library for posterity. But…I’m pretty sure THEY already know all of that?
Teaching myself to become a webmaster was very hard because I had a student who was just like a goose and woke up in a new world everyday so it took several years.
My student also resembled a monkey trying to fuck a football for much of that time while trying to work with a computer, but I’m pretty fuckin’ good now…try me.
Good tidings to all. I did speak with Joy today–she is checking out the fire chief thing at Yarnell. I believe she would be an excellent chief and her credentials and long time familiarity with the Yarnell area and its people would add to the credentials she has established over the past 6 years. One thing the people of Yarnell could sleep well knowing she was on as chief–not of this allowing a small lightening strike or any other small fire left unattended as happened in 2013. She knows the terrain with over ten years hiking all about that region so she would know exactly how to get to a fire that needed to be attended to. Consider also, she barely escaped with her life during the 2013 wild fire that killed the GMHS crew. So she had plenty respect for wild land fires and would not be a balker to do the work necessary to protect the citizens. She is very up on defensible space and at my cabin there was right on top of getting the cabin properly fire safe. She also knows just about every wild land fire fighter and local fire personnel in Yarnell and surrounding communities and many even in Phoenix. Her managing skills are superb as well as her organizational abilities. The citizen would have no problem getting accurate and timely FOIA information from her. She has had the bad experience of trying to get FOIA’s, and with that it has her disgusted that so many Departments involving wild land fire work are so difficult to obtain information from. You can bet there would be no laxity on her part in supplying that information as required by law. So many seem to think they are above the law that handle FOIA’s, she is a stickler to observing the laws.
So I cast my vote for Joy as a grade A Fire Chief for Yarnell. I am certain many others in Yarnell would agree.
Joy has a web site involving the wild land fire situation–some who have visited there have given apologies to Joy. Certain people had slandered Joy saying they were afraid she would attack them. Yet once people knew Joy and attended to her site, they realized she could likely win the outstanding citizen of the decade award. I have witnessed her actions over about a decade. Her actions were always to get right in the thick of things when it comes to helping people. And I mean everything from pulling weeds for the elderly to distributing goods during the terrible loss of homes so many at Yarnell had.
McClain and Amanda do owe Joy an apology–their anger at her for staying in there to reveal all the facts she could muster doesn’t excuse their behaviour.
It has been a fiery day for me–I caught my telephone pole on fire–but then I did not stand there and watch it burn all night (such as did the Yarnell and Peeples Valley and Congress fire departments did while watching the lightning strike all night that triggered the fire that killed the GMHS crew) –I grabbed a bucket of water and promptly put it out. Grass is dry here but sparse and using the torch had started a miniature fire that spread to my pump telephone pole. The wind is a natural bellows and I was looking at a flaming bole at the base–and I could have used a garden hose as well.
So the stitch in time saves 9–well could have saved 19.
Update on Bret and Bruce–those investigators we thought did well to recommend the highest fine possible for the management the SFS did at Yarnell–Bruce and Bret moved on—well wouldn’t you know, you do not challenge the abilities of the men working a fire like Yarnell where it is a debacle worth the highest fine according to those investigators and give a truthful evaluation. Well what did it matter since the fine was paid from tax money moved from one hand to the other. The matter of course was the blight put on the actions of the SFS, albeit a good thing that Bret and Bruce did–evaluate in obvious truth–they are now out of that business of investigations. Hmmm. pda
WTKTT and Gary,
You definitely make valid points.
This is from a paper I am about to publish: “Wildfire fatalities continue to occur from the same causal factors. Staff Rides are a valuable asset in the “lessons learned” tool box to reduce them, however, when based on deceptive “investigations,” how valuable are those “lessons learned?” An overlooked statement: “ [they] should avoid being a recital of a single investigation report. Such reports rarely address the human factors that affect individual decision-making. … providing participants with a variety of information sources is important” [38]. (emphasis added) The YH Fire requires different “information sources” to be factual.”
Reference 38 is from the “NWCG: Wildland Fire leadership Development Program. The Staff Ride (2019). ( https:// http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/index.html )
Speaking of ‘variety of information sources’….
Even the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Facilitator’s Guide ( as fully developed and endorsed by the NWCG ) refused to mention either the ADOSH investigation report OR the associated WFA report, even though the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned page for Yarnell still lists BOTH as valid ‘research’ documents with regards to the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And if the NWCG never had any intentions of making that final Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride product part of its library… the “Omna International” group that was contracted by NWCG and U.S. Forestry to actually DEVELOP the Yarnell HIll Staff Ride never got that memo.
Even now… “Omna International” is not only listing the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride as one of their premier accomplishments ( on their home page, no less )… they are still listing it as one of their ‘Available Events’ that anyone can ‘schedule’.
From Omna International’s own “Available Events” page…
http://www.theomna.com/events.html
——————————————————
Mann Gulch Fire Staff Ride
South Canyon Fire Staff Ride
Dude Fire Staff Ride
Thirtymile Fire Staff Ride
Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride
——————————————————
And as for people “not getting the memo” that the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride product was headed for obscurity after it was finished…
…you can ( apparently ) count former Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney on that list.
In an interview with the Prescott Daily Courier on April 29, 2016, the very week that another ‘dry run’ of the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride had just been performed, Whitney himself was hyping the ‘importance’ of it all as a “learning tool” for the entire WF industry, and also said that he expected it would be ‘conducted’ four times a year on an ongoing basis…
“Arizona Forster Jeff Whitney said he foresees the Yarnell Hill Fire being a learning tool for years to come, with as many as four staff rides a year conducted at the site.”
So somebody was bullshitting even “El Jefe”… while he was still actually working on it.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Families, officials walk in final footsteps of the Hotshots
Published: April 29, 2016 6:02 a.m. – By Cindy Barks
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/
From that article…
————————————————————————————-
PRESCOTT – When the State of Arizona and 12 families of fallen Granite Mountain Hotshots settled a wrongful death lawsuit in June 2015, the Arizona State Forestry Division agreed to do nine things.
Now, about 10 months later, a number of those points have been accomplished, and others are in the works, say officials with the State Forestry Division.
First on the list was a promise to conduct an eight-hour question-and-answer session with the Hotshot families to “review data and information and to answer questions posed by the families and their consultants/experts.”
Other points included the creation of “lessons learned” and “staff ride” documents to help prevent similar tragedies from happening in the future, as well as a number of steps toward improved training, technology, communications, and instruction on estate planning and family care plans.
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney points out that the staff ride process has been underway for months, and is expected to wrap up before the three-year mark of the Granite Mountain Hotshot tragedy (June 30, 2016).
Creation of a staff ride was a requirement of the Hotshot lawsuit settlement that was reached nearly a year ago (June 29, 2015).
The process also is integral to wildland firefighting, and was among the recommendations of the Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation that came out in September 2013.
As Whitney explains it, a staff ride is a multi-phase process that has its roots in the military. First comes a preliminary study of the incident or fire, then an extensive field study of the actual sites where the fire occurred, and finally, an opportunity to integrate the lessons learned from the fire into future firefighting efforts.
The draft staff ride document from April 2016 lists five goals. First among them: “Create a memorable learning experience that helps participants make better decisions supported by the application of recent and relevant history.”
For Whitney, who in 1990 was on the team battling the Payson-area Dude Fire during which six firefighters died, the “lessons-learned” aspect is crucial.
“How can we prevent this from happening?” he said. “It’s important work.”
Whitney came out of retirement in January 2015 to accept Gov. Doug Ducey’s appointment as director of the Arizona State Forestry Division. He was a part of the mediation that culminated with the June 2015 settlement of a wrongful death lawsuit that family members brought against the state.
He stresses that the staff ride is not intended to be an investigation into “what went wrong?” Rather, he said, the exercise puts wildland experts into the place of those who made the decisions during the fire.
“It’s important that we get some clarity around what occurred there,” Whitney said. “And it’s important that we try to do everything we possibly can to equip our current and future fire managers with more information, so they’re better able to do situation awareness and opportunity recognition.”
The 47-page April 2016 Yarnell Hill Staff Ride draft included a step-by-step schedule for the team. Among the defined stops: the Yarnell Fire Station; movement to the ridge top on Yarnell Hill; a “sense-making and communication” session at the top of the ridge; descending to the saddle, defined as “closing the window;” and the fatality site, which the document refers to as “realized ultimate reality.”
Along with background about the crew, the draft staff ride document includes situational information, and the tactical decisions that were made.
The document notes that participants in the exercise would be “tracing the route and decision-making of the (Granite Mountain Hotshots) and their colleagues as they faced a rapidly changing fire environment in an effort to manage the Yarnell Hill Fire.”
Whitney said the family involvement in the Yarnell Hill staff ride was somewhat unique, because of its place in the settlement agreement.
The 40 experts who participated this week came various agencies all over the country. Their feedback will go into the creation of the final staff ride document.
Whitney foresees the Yarnell Hill Fire being a learning tool for years to come, with as many as four staff rides a year conducted at the site. (He said access to the site is still being worked out).
Noting that staff rides usually take eight to 10 years to complete, Whitney said the Yarnell Hill exercise is well ahead of the norm.
“We’re going to have this done in three years,” he said. I’m extremely pleased with the progress to date. It redeems the commitment I made.”
———————————————————————————
WTKTT et al;
Part 1
IF I am correct and they, meaning Arizona State Forestry supported by the NWCG in general and the U.S. Forest Service in particular, do not intend to ever make the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride available in digitized format on-line in the NWCG Staff Ride Library, then you are missing the entire nuanced game they are playing. In other words, it is Check & Mate and you never even saw your opponent move their first pawn.
And like just about everything else you have been wrong about, it’s because you don’t understand, much less know how to play the game they play. I really shouldn’t use Chess analogies, because what they play really isn’t anything resembling chess.
So…I am going to make up a name for the game they have beat you at for the last six (6) years, let’s call it the “Bureaucratic Shell Game.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_game
And no matter how many times I tell you that they don’t actually have to do what you think they have to do based on our laws, rules and regulations unless you have the legal resources to sue them in federal court and have a federal judge rule your interpretation of what they should be doing is correct and even then you need to continually monitor them and periodically force them back into a court and prove to the judge they are violating his or her court orders, you always fall for their slight-of-hand tricks.
Of course I admire your commitment, belief, enthusiasm, values, ideals, morals, so on and so forth as a good citizen who believes in the rule of law and that public servants are duty bound to serve the public interest. So…I don’t want you to stop being you and fighting the good fight, I just want you to know when you are being fucked over and they aren’t even kissing you while they do it. This very same game is now being played out on a super sized grand scale never been seen before scale on the national level by the Trump Administration where they simply declare all of the federal laws that ostensibly govern our country don’t apply to them and if anyone thinks differently, they can hire a lawyer and sue them.in federal court. We as a nation are now waiting for that to happen and to find out if they will even follow the laws after federal judges order them to do so. Abd then we will find out if we are in a genuine and bonafide constitutional crisis or not? So far, they have done what they federal judges have ordered after they have lost in court, but that is certainly subject to change.
I truly don’t want this to sound insulting to you because I respect all of the features, capabilities and upgrades you were built with, but like all machines, you are incapable of computing nuanced thoughts, which is why in the end, no matter if you self replicate or not, you will never rule the world. We as humans will always be able to trick you because you live in a binary world of 1’s and 0’s, where the toggle switch is either off or on, there is good and bad, right and wrong, good guys versus bad guys and in the end…the good guys always win. I can tell you are an older model who was created when our world was…better.
You are like a child who I have told many times that there isn’t a Santa Claus that still believes there is in spite of all of the times that child has awoken early on Christmas morning and found their father eating the Christmas cookies they put out for Santa Claus in his underwear while their mother arranges the gifts around the tree that he just carried in from where they were hidden in the garage. You continue to believe and I think that is just ADORABLE! Naive…but very endearing and I have a great deal of respect for you because of those qualities.
You also don’t really understand how Staff Rides are conducted so here is the bottom line, Staff Rides are very expensive to put on because of they are very labor intensive and require the time and efforts of dozens of paid government employees to put them on in addition to the labor and efforts of quite a large number of “Subject Matter Exoerts” (SME) who were actually on the fire to staff all of the learning and discussion stations they call “stands.”
If these SME’s are government employees, you need them to get the permission of their supervisors in order for them to be gone for at least a week from their normal jobs, which can happen, but not a lot because their supervisors don’t really care about the success of your staff ride, they care about the work load they are responsible for and will be evaluated on at the end of the year. If they are retired, you have to get each one of them to donate their time to make your staff ride successful and if none of these people live in the immediate area, you need to either pay travel and per diem costs for them, or convince that same supervisor it is in their best interest to pay for those cost.
But in any case, you are going to need a “management code” that serves the same purpose as a credit card number and somebody on the other end of it that will actually process and then authorize everything to be paid for out of somebodies “hard” budget because Staff Rides aren’t like fires, there has to be real funds to pay for all of the travel vouchers, that are mailed to them with all kinds of receipts attached to them.
And if I understand why El Estupido isn’t the State Forester any more, it’s because he was really bad at doing budgeting and then following that budget to the tune of millions of dollars. Managers that continually (or sometimes just once) have budget shortfalls that somebody else has to make up for usually aren’t managers for very long.
That is why I got to go to the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride in spite of the fact that I was a giant pain-in-the-ass of the Staff Ride Coordinator Shawna Legarza. She needed me to stand at the point my fellow sawyer and two person backfire team member and I ignited our backfire from to describe what we did and what happened after that to individual groups of students who would come along periodically sheparded by course facilitators, all of who have to be paid, and who have to have their travel costs paid for as well.
I found out just how bad they needed me after I told them they could take their Staff Ride and shove it up their ass after the other Staff Ride committee members kept shitting on me every time I opened my mouth to say, “Wait a minute, it didn’t happen that way” or “ That isn’t right,” or “You have it all wrong.”
Especially since all of the other Staff Ride Committee members were high ranking FIRE Staff Officers from several different agencies across the country, several of whom were former Hotshot Crew bosses themselves…so they were definitely NOT impressed by my street creds, especially since I was part of an alien and much feared race to them…Special Agents. The only time they had ever had any contact with people like me was when they had been under an internal investigation forvsome seriuis wrong-doing, or at least had been accused of it. I wasn’t part of their tribe and as an outsider, they didn’t have any patience for me even if I would have shut the fuck up, which of course I didn’t do.
Once I figured all of that out, I called up my old buddies and said, “ Hey…do you want to meet me in Grand Junction where we can get drunk, have some laughs and take some walks down memory lane, all at the expense of the U. S. Forest Service?” And that was because I wasn’t going to that fuckin’ goat 🐐 ropin’ all by myself without some back up because there was ONE (1) really important thing I had learned while working in feral law enforcement.
If you even think there might be a gun fight or even some pushing, shoving and harsh language exchanged, take a bunch of guys, who all have a bunch of guns with you. We didn’t fuck around with playing fair…we played for keeps every time with every intention to, “Finish The Fight.” If you do that…you very rarely have to fight because even the worst hard asses piss on themselves when we showed up en masse. Patrol officers rarely get to pick the time and place of their gun fights, investigations usually get to plan theirs out in advance with an “Operations Plan”
Side Story…they interviewed a committed cop killer who had been stopped by an officer he didn’t kill, but he killed the next officer who stopped him. When he was asked, “Why didn’t you kill the first officer who stopped you? The convicted cop killer replied, “Because when I looked into his eyes, I knew he would kill me.” So I made a career out of always doing my very best to look like I had a plan to kill every mother fucker I came face to face with…dead, dead, dead, so dead that their mothers would puke when they saw what was left of them.
So anyway…of course my buddies said, “Fuck yes…got a management code?” And so I told Shawna she could count me in…IF she could get my old assistant crew boss (who had been a crew member on the Battlement Creek Fire) and who was the Helicopter Operations Manager on the Tongass National Forest in Southeast Alaska, and my fellow sawyer and backfire team member who was the Missoula Smokejumper Loft Foreman, to come with me. So Shawna called up their supervisors and persuaded them to send Bill and Hardy to Grand Junction and pay for all of their travel and per diem costs out of her budget, just because I wanted some fuckin’ back up and it was very sweet of her to do that for me. But then again…I know she had explicit orders to put up with my bullshit and get me to that staff ride from way up her chain-of-command and Shawna is above all else…a very good soldier.
Side Note; You can see photos of both Bill and Hardy here with me standing in front of the Grand Valley Fire Department Battlement Creek Memorial along I-70, with some photos of them from back in the day fighting fire here,
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
The Grand County Fire Department and the communities they serve are almost the only people who gave a fuck about what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire for 30 years until the U,S. Forest Service came up with this Staff Ride idea, but those people never stopped remembering or caring…God Bless Them.
You wrote, Even now… “Omna International” is not only listing the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride as one of their premier accomplishments ( on their home page, no less )… they are still listing it as one of their ‘Available Events’ that anyone can ‘schedule’.
Part 2
Here are just some of the things “anyone” who wants to schedule a Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride needs;
1. A recognized land management agency who has wildfire management as their core mission or is affiliated with one who does. And who is in every situation I can think of…already a member of the National Wildfire Coordinating Group to be the sponsoring agency of said staff ride.
2. A Staff Ride Coordinator.
3. A Staff Ride Committee.
4. A “ management code” because almost everyone you ask, “ Hey…do you want to…..?”, you have to be prepared to recite it every time someone replies, “Sure…do you have a management code?”
5. Funding to pay for lots of things, even if everybody who participates either as a facilitator, SME, student, instructor, or grunt has their own management code and authorization to use it. FYI…grunts set up the signs, pick up people at the airport, set up the conference room, drive the vans that take people to the field exercise and at least a thousand other tasks that need to be done before, during and after every staff ride.
6. Funding to pay for at least a thousand other costs associated with sponsoring every staff ride before, during and after the event such as paying for the conference room where your meetings, tye training sessions, vans to transport everyone around with, banquet and “after action” session that will accomodate about 100 to 150 people.
7. Highly respected and recognized guest speakers in the wildfire management field to be lecturers during different parts of the staff ride. Dr. Putnam attended the staff ride I went on both as an SME, because he had been on the fire as a ‘single resource Smokejumper-at-large” who served as a “sector boss” to fill out the original Battlement Creek Fire Team and he was a guest speaker. At the staff ride I attended, they went around the room to every attendee and expected them to stand up, introduce themselves, and state why they came, and what they got out of the exercise. That certainly included myself as a SME. Shawna didn’t place any restrictions on what I said either to the groups of students who cycled through my ‘stand” or on what I said during my after dinner speech and I told it exactly how it happened, as did Dr. Putnam on his stand and during his official presentation speech. But of course whatever we said wasn’t memorialized and so it was either ignored, or soon forgotten by everyone outside of hearing what we said in that moment. And FYI…that took awhile since there were about 150 people in attendance although many just stood up and said I agree with what he/she said since most people attended in groups from common agencies that dinner and speech program took several hours. The table Bill, Hardy and I sat at was shared by a contingent of high ranking officers from the Los Angeles Fire Department. One interesting side note, most of the “grunts” who worked on the staff ride were members of either Shawna’s hotshot crew, the San Juan (National Forest) Hotshots or the current Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew who both attended in large groups. I don’t know if everyone from both crews were there, but there was a lot of them there. It was a big deal to have current Mormon Lake Hotshots there because their home district on the Coconino still lives the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster as part of their daily lives, in part because of their in- house memorial almost everyone passes on a daily basis. That fire isn’t ancient history there. And FYI…if you DON’T have two entire hotshot crews to use as grunts, good luck findinding all of the grunts you are going to need to put on a successful staff ride. The driver who was assigned to the van that was put at the disposal of Bill, Hardy and I for sight seeing and our private trip to the memorial sites at the Grand Junction Airport, the actual fire scar, and the Grand Mesa Fire Department one on I-70 was a current Mormon Lake Squad Boss.Shawna was a very gracious hostess who even took the three of us out to lunch and she bought while we told her we didn’t like a fuckin’ thing about how they were putting on the staff ride. Bill and I had to take Hardy outside half way through the lunch and talk him off the ledge because he was really pissed off, wheras I had had months to calm down and Bill just had a “fuck it…let’s just have a good time while we are here attitude.” Of course Hardy had worked for years and had been good friends with the “single resource Smokejumper” who had served as the Official Scapegoat, Fall Guy, and Sacrificial Lamb sector boss who had been assigned all of the blame for everyone else who fucked up on the fire and he went to his death as a broken hearted man who had been emotionally destroyed by the unfair blame that he had endured. So to Hardy…it was even more personal than it was to me, whereas Bill didn’t give a fuck in general he had see too much bullshit in his U.S. Forest Service career to let that nonsense get in the way of our three man reunion party and fuck off week. Bill always had been a party animal…even by hotshot standards.
8. I’m tired of typing on this post, just take my word for it, you need a really big pool of people to draw from to be students, SME’s, facilitators, and grunts and a really big pot of money to pay for lots of people and things. Most WLF who are at the middle grade and UP, in addition to “being somebody” from wherever they are from, might get to go to ONE (1) staff ride during their entire career if they are lucky and if they have it as part of their Training Plan for a few decades. I think the average staff ride costs several hundred thousand dollars of tax payer money once all expenses including lost time for wages is calculated in. The only criticism I have ever heard about Staff Rides is that they aren’t very cost effective in terms of their “cost to benefit” ratio since they reach only a very small numbers of trainees in a world that is starved for training dollars since training is the first thing that always gets cut out of every budget.
Anyway. I’m tired of typing on one of my trademarked Mother Of All Posts (MOAP) But I did cut and paste what Staff Ride facilitators need to be ready to do.
I am also going to find and probably cut and pasted an exempt from my book that is in a very rough draft that describes most of my own staff ride experience so you can kind of get an idea of what mine was like if you want to know. I think there is some serious misconceptions or misunderstandings of what a staff ride entails. There just isn’t any place for people like Joy or Sonny on a staff ride.. I say that because Joy has always thought she should have been invited to the first one…and every one after that. But…that just isn’t how things work in your government. Nobody who is anybody cares what Joy or Sonny experienced, saw or think about what they saw or experienced on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
So…to sum up HAL 9000, when El Jefe and Omna International say’s “anyone” can schedule a Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride…they didn’t mean you…or me. It’s just all part of the grand charade, you aren’t supposed to take most of what they say seriously, they are just giving the public a reach-a-round so they can feel good about the way all of their tax dollars being spent on Staff Rides.
Facilitator Tips
Individuals who plan to facilitate a staff ride should read the Wildland Fire Staff Ride Guide prior to conducting the event. This guide provides a thorough explanation of the logistical and instructional considerations for a successful event.
The following tips have been collected from facilitators of recent staff rides and should be considered a supplement to the complete Staff Ride guide. If you have a suggestion or tip, please submit it through the staff ride feedback feature.
Prior to the staff ride there are several preparation actions a facilitator should do:
Research a variety of information sources and become well-versed on the incident in order to be able to answer questions from participants.
Walk the ground at least once with all support cadre so that you know where the stands are and can accurately orient participants when you take the entire group to the site.
Provide “read-ahead” suggestions, the event schedule, and travel directions to the participants at least two to three weeks in advance.
While an investigation report is a primary source of information, it should not be the only source of information that is used. Facilitators are encouraged to rent and watch the movie Courage Under Fire. Although this movie is a fictional drama, it provides a good perspective on the barriers that can be encountered during an incident investigation.
During the staff ride some facilitation techniques to consider include:
Use a sand table or other terrain model to provide an orientation of the site and sequence of events prior to the start of the actual field visit.
If you have a large number of participants, break them into smaller conference groups of 10-12 individuals each. Provide a knowledgeable conference group leader for each of these smaller groups with an overall facilitator to coordinate movement and adherence to planned timeframes.
Manage the group by providing activity and departure time cues at the start of each “stand.”
Orient the group to key geographic features and review relevant events at the start of each “stand” so participants can build the overall picture of the incident in their mind.
Don’t get caught up in being a narrator–encourage group discussion, interaction, and debate. Tactical decision games (TDGS) are one method to do that. Facilitators should feel free to use any method that they are comfortable with. If you do use the TDGS, hand them out to the participants as you leave the “stand” – that is prior to the “stand” where the participants will respond to them. This will allow participants time to think about the dilemma.
Other facilitation methods to encourage interaction include presentations by first-hand witnessess from the incident, open-ended discussion questions designed for your target audience, and assigned participant briefings that require pre-study research.
Be sure to allow some discretionary time for participants to do some exploring on their own sometime during the staff ride.
It is very easy to run short of time at the end of the day. Make sure to save enough time at the end of the event for a final integration, allowing individuals to discuss and share their “takeaways” from their assessment of the event.
Have fun with the group.
FYI…I don’t want anyone to ever make the mistake of thinking Shawna Legarza is where she is at because she is a woman. Shawna is where she is at because she is really smart, really tough, she is a very good soldier, and she has exceptional command presence in spite of the fact she is only about 5 feet tall and she is a woman.
Shawna took all of the bullshit I threw at her and in the end she said, “You are more than welcome to have your opinion about what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire and express it to whom ever you would like to however you would like to express it, but for the purposes of this staff ride, we are going to follow the official investigative report.”
And by golly…I really respected her for how she told me and the others which included Dr. Putnam to fuck off. And she was performing in a position that normally would have been way over her pay grade as “just” a hotshot crew boss at the time.
Oh…and one more thing. The “cost to benefit” ratio is exactly why the YHF Staff Ride SHOULD be made available on-line for everyone to benefit from. It is possible and they intend WLF to be able to “attend” Staff Rides in the virtual cyber world and thereby increasing their cost to benefit ratio exponentially and thereby justify the enormous expense of creating them.
It is what I consider it be a CRIMINAL offense NOT to put the YHF Staff Ride on-line and is a real abuse of the power that is ENTRUSTED to the public servants who have made that decision, if that is in fact what they have done.
I didn’t even notice it wasn’t on the list the other day when I published the staff ride library link, WTKTT did. I have always just assumed the reason it wasn’t there yet, was because they were still finalizing it with their beta rides, whatever a beta ride is? Actually…I think I do know, Beta Rides are used to work out the bugs and kinks, but I think that window has now closed and it is way past time for it to be on-line along with all of the other Staff Rides that cost a small fortune in tax dollars to create.
Oh…and I was still working when I was first asked to participate on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride. But since I was on the committee for several months before I finally got tired of those assholes taking turns shitting on me every time I said something and finally told them to take their staff ride and shove it up theirs asses. But…I was retired by the time the very first staff ride was put on and so I attended that as a retiree.
Anyway…the funny part of the story is when Shawna Legarza called up my supervisor, who was the Special Agent -in-Charge (SAC) for BLM Arizona (but all of us worked for the BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement & Security) and convinced him it was in his best interest as the SAC to let his ASAC participate not only as a committee member for their staff ride but as a Subject Matter Expert as well.
Fortunately my supervisor and I went way back and so he just walked into my office one day with a puzzled look on his face to tell me about the strange telephone call he had gotten from someone named Shawna Legarza about a disaster fire from some 30 years earlier. And after I told him what was going on, he just said, “Yeah sure…call her back and tell her you can participate if that’s something you want to do and I will pay for it out of our budget if need be…no problem.”
But…that isn’t the response you will get from most supervisors when you ask them to take man hours or dollars out of THEIR program or budget in order to make your staff ride a success, even if the supervisors you call work for FIRE. It’s a dog eat dog world out there.
Actually…I told that story a little off, the very first person to talk to my supervisor about my help on their staff ride even before Shawna did, was the BLM Arizona FMO to lay the foundation for Shawna’s follow up call.
Clarification,
The Committee I am referring to was Shawna’s original staff ride development committee. That was the committee that developed the entire staff ride from nothing. That would have been the time to tell the truth, but none of those assholes were the slight bit interested in telling the truth. Although Shawna made me feel really good with the wrap-a-round sgphe gave me because she can really turn on the charm and she you is highly trained to, “Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.” and fuck you over every which way but loose with a smile on her face while never losing her cool 😎 so that in the end, you thank her for such s pleasant experience when she finally says, “Have a nice day!”
“I mean…say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism Dude, at least its an ethos.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b_29yvYpf4w
I am so embarrassed 😞! Now that I think about it, maybe the plan all along was for Shawna to make me feel good while at the same time, her posse of former hotshot crew bosses beat me black and blue with the old bar soap in the sock treatment?
What a dumbass I was.
Whoops, I called what Shawna gave me a wrap-a-round in the previous post rather than using what she gave me the correct name, which is a reach-a-round. And if you don’t know what a reach-a-round is…forget I even used that term.
And by “Have a nice day.” I mean it to sound like some police officers do so that many police departments have made it a violation of departmental policy to ever say that to anyone after they finish their contact because they way in which they say it…can make people explode with anger and that gives the officers an excuse to arrest them or at least be able to laugh at them because the citizens go ape shit crazy on the officers dash cameras.
And my rough draft of the chapter about the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride was even rougher than I remember it and so I am going to try and work on it some and then post it for my adoring readers who just can’t wait for my tome to be finished and published. And that is because, in the final analysis, my experience on that on that staff ride was the reason I started writing a book in the first place. So it’s kinda important to me.
And just in case I got a little oblique there for my own good, I think Shawna made it to where she is at because she’s the whole package, a sycophant for management who was always willing to carry their AND she was a woman.
I know that there were many men who had the same damning predilection for betraying their values and principles in exchange for their professional advancement, but what put Shawna over the top in the end is that she was willing to do those things AND she checked the minority box.
Shawna charmed everyone she came into contact with so she could make her betrayal of the WLF on the fire line appear to be legitimate. She fucked me over. She fucked Ted over. And she fucked every one on my crew over and the Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew over.
Shawna betrayed herself and every one else she had to do as she sold her soul so that some day she would get the ultimate payoff to go as high as she could.
And in her case, it ended really high up as the Washington Office Director of Aviation and Fire Management. Promotions, baby. That’s how it works.
Shawna Legarza and all of the people like her (Mike Dudley) as truly despicable human beings.
And just in case I got a little oblique there for my own good, I think Shawna made it to where she is at because she’s the whole package, a sycophant for management who was always willing to carry their “water” AND she was a woman.
Shawna Legarza and all of the people like her (Mike Dudley) “are” truly despicable human beings.
Promotions above a certain level that is. And that “level” is normally defined as “field operations” and whatever that entails and duties that fit into that general job description depending on whatever the specific personnel series you want to talk about from Forestry Technician to Special Agent. The key is always the percentage of the job that is based on “field operations” which was a job description I never made it past. I was offered the prize, but at the critical moment in my career, I turned it down and I turned States evidence and went into the witness protection program instead. 🙂
Which by the way, was for the last 15 years of my career. I was never promoted again for the last 15 years I spent on the job.
But the good news is, I had plenty of time to rack up the within grade step increases and so I retired as a Step 8. There are only a only a total of 10 steps within each GS Grade. And the system is designed to take you an entire career (30 years) to earn all 10 steps even if you are never promoted up another grade again.
I was able to leap from a Step 1 to a final Step 8 over just 15 years because I received four (4) Quality Step Increases which is a really big award because each QSI bumps you up one step.
Every old time employee out there who reads this knows that four QSI’s over 15 years is a really big deal since each step is worth as much as $100,000 (or more) during the average career and subsequent retirement depending on lots of factors like your final hourly wage and how long you live.
15 fuckin’ years without ever being promoted again because I was blackballed by management. Life can be a real bitch (non gender specific) and then you die..
But…I have already written wayyyyy to much. 🙂
A GS-13 Step 8 that is.
And yes…I applied for lots of GS-14 jobs during that 15 year period. Management liked to consistently place me in the top 3 for the final interview just so they could fuck me over in the end. And I liked to keep applying for those jobs, and consistently making the top three and getting fucked over in the end just because I wanted them to know I wouldn’t ever give up.
By the end…most top managers didn’t even know why they were supposed to fuck me over because of the natural retirements of the older managers…they just did it because top management had been doing it for so many year and the reason didn’t matter any more.
And just FYI, most employees go for their entire careers without ever getting even one (1) QSI.
Especially those employees who work for the U.S. Forest Service. That is one of the cheapest fuckin’ agencies out there.
So…the bottom line is, go to work for the BLM if you can…you just have to be willing to work for an agency that in general lacks a moral center.
But…there are lots of upsides in the equation, they are a lot more generous with the QSI ‘s for one thing. 🙂
I bet I never would have gotten even one QSI myself if I had stayed with the USFS for my entire career.
But…I was very well aware of that fact (although not to the extent of it or just how bad it was) before I ever applied to the BLM for a job in the first place.
So…what does that say about me? Wait, don’t answer that…it was a rhetorical question.
Fuck me…how on earth did I ever start down this road? Never mind.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OjYoNL4g5VgP
I mean…it’s not that I am counting or anything, well…I guess I just did.
But I went from a GS-3 Step 1 to a GS-13 in the first half of my career, which was 15 years.
And then I remained a GS-13 for the entire second half of my career, which was 15 years. I really fucked up someplace.
Actually, I remember that place in time so vividly…it’s like it just happened this morning.
But everyone who knows me well already knows the story. And if you don’t know the story by now…it doesn’t matter any more. 🙂
Although everyone who has participated in this thread for any length of time…knows that a very large portion of the U.S. Forest Service also lacks a moral center. So…I guess you just pick your poison and hope for the best.
All in all…I don’t have any complaints about how my career went, but I sometimes bitch (non gender specific) anyway just to stay in practice.
Okay…just one more little house cleaning chore regarding my entire somewhat bizarre written journey today.
I have written this before several years ago, but just as a refresher in case you aren’t current on all of my posts, the reason Shawna had strict orders to get me to the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride had absolutely nothing to do with my manning the training station or “stand” that I did. Staff Rides are designed to be fully functional without any Subject Matter Experts on scene, SME’s, who were actually on the fire are just nice to have if they happen to be available.
The reason Shawna had orders to get me to the staff ride if at all possible, was because one of my very closest friends at the time was the Director Of Fire Management and Aviation for Region 5, California and the Pacific Islands.
And as such, he was very influential in the FIRE world because his budget was bigger than all of the other nine regions budgets were…combined.
Anyway, this guy (Ed) had also been a hotshot crew boss in his youth on the Coconino National Forest, (the Blue Ridge Hotshots) as well and we were buddies for years while we both worked on the Santa Fe.
So…this same guy had been the Incident Commander on the Dude Fire Disaster so he had some PTSD demons of his own to deal with. And he thought that I had some PTSD issues as well from the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster, but he was wrong about that…I just had some anger management issues that were residual from the fire and living in my head rent free that he and I had discussed over the years…you know, mostly when we had been drinking and bullshitting each other.
Our fire gods had specifically ordered us not to give a fuck about what happened to the Mormon Lake Hotshots…so we didn’t. It may seen odd given how things are done today, but after one meeting with Bill Buck we first got home, the fire was never discussed by any of us ever again. and that included within our own crew at our home base.
It was like it had never even happened. For one thing, they had us mopping up the area where those guys had been killed the very next day. I can still vividly remember the brightly colored flagging that fluttered in the breeze that marked where each body had laid just a few hours earlier in the harsh glare of the sun.
It was an absolutely beautiful day with crystal clear blue skies, bright sunshine and a bengal breeze. The huge black scar of the fire and it’s fingers melted slowly into the vibrant green of the valley stretching below us all of the way down to the Grand Valley in the distance.
Anyway…he thought I needed to go to the staff ride as part of my healing process, but I just wanted to go to have a few laughs with my old buddies and take some walks down memory lane. But this same guy called in a favor and got his counterpart for Region 4, the Intermountain Region to tell Shawna to put up with my bullshit if it meant getting me to the staff ride as an SME.
Ed said I needed to go “for the kids on the fire line today.” And so I did…end of story. But in the end…I failed the kids on the fire line today because I couldn’t convince them that they needed to tell the truth about what really happened on the fire. So…
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> …it is way past time for it ( the Yarnell Hill Staff
>> Ride digital prodcut ) to be on-line along with
>> all of the other Staff Rides that cost a small
>> fortune in tax dollars to create.
It already IS. Has been for quite some time.
Just not where it ( normally ) SHOULD be… and THAT is what remains ‘bizarre’.
Thanks to John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA… the actual ‘digitial product’ was obtained through a valid Open Records Request, and has always been sitting online ( in all of its bullshit glory ) at the following PUBLIC location(s)…
The 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Facilitator’s Guide…
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m1etsyqrn1kt211/Yarnell%20Facilitator%20Guide.pdf?dl=0
Special version of the YHF Staff Ride Facilitator’s guide used for the ‘Family Input’ trial staff ride that took place on April 5, 2016…..
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j3pa53281pl6m9p/April%20Staff%20Ride%20Guide.pdf?dl=0
So ‘they’ can’t ever say it doesn’t exist or was never finished.. The only thing that remains to be learned is why ‘they’ are not PUBLISHING it and making it truly ‘available’ along with all the other staff ride products already bought-and-paid-for with taxpayer dollars.
No kidding…you are right once again, the entire staff rude is there. I guess they are betting on the fact hardly anyone knows it’s there? Otherwise, why not just go ahead and put it on line with all of the other Staff Rides in the library?
The staff ride sounds like a stiff ride. Stiff the taxpayer and play the game called house wins every time.
Gary gets it right and gives us the truth. Yes some claim to win after standing up to the juggernaut grant their heart doesn’t quit from the hassle and –after perhaps twenty plus years in courts and expending bundles of money. Justice is biased to those with the treasure and government has the bundle. If you have a good lawyer they have 150 to combine heads to defeat you and certain your delays will run into years and your hair will grey.
So yes, Gary knows the game–and we know the truth. Perhaps that is enough just to watch a few squirm–likely as far as our efforts will do. But that gives us a smile and to know that a few of the children and Moms and Dads and other friends and concerned people get the facts adds to the good citizen books.
And of course … the link is kinda important
( https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/why-accidents-like-notre-dame-fire-happen/587956/?utm_source=pocket-newtab )
RTS,
This article discusses theories that seem to support my positions on the 10, the 18, and LCES and undermine what you so strongly believe and that is all of those rules are important.
This article also appears to me to bolster one of the key criticism our critics have of our thread and our opinion of the SAIR written by the SAIT.
So…I’m curious as to why you would post this article and what it’s salient points are that you like?
What I got from it was RTS was saying have a duckey day😀
🌴It had both viewpoints is my takeaway🌴
🌞 🌞 🌞
Have the best day ever Gary😇🙏👍💪🙌🔥
Oh yeah Gary
Lets use our emoticons to tell a story
😶 (quiet for years)
🙌 (Gave it to God)
🙈🙉🙊 (the attitude of locals and county and state and federal)
🍀Irish God(s) shine on Tex🍀 ( Sonny always has been the shining light in this as he told me this day June 30, 2013.. “we gotta get the hell out of here”…I would not have been able to gather data all these years had he not kept at it that day…
The story is out in certain areas…some coroners know it…there is no turning back now…Gary, there is no joy in doing this but its the hardest thing to ever do knowing the whole enchilada.
😞
Well okay then…tell me already.
Reply to Joy Collura post on April 30, 2019 at 10:17 am
>> Joy Collura said…
>>
>> The story is out in certain areas… some coroners know it…
Coroners?
Well… if that doesn’t make a person sit up, pay attention, and say “Holy, coverups, batman!”…I guess nothing would.
Are you saying that even the ‘autopsy reports’ that were released ( including, perhaps, the ‘drug testing’ results? ) were… somehow…
What’s the right word?… “incomplete”?
Yes…I think it has two take-away points, both of which are antithetical to beliefs that RTS has previously stated. And I hope you have a ball of yarn day.🧶
Gary,
I think the author is fairly accurate on the fact that accidents and catastrophes like wildland fire fatalities are inevitable and a “part of life” as he states.
You’re going to have to be more specific on what you believe are “two take-away points, both of which are antithetical to beliefs that RTS has previously stated.”
Well..you answered my question by stating, “I think the author is fairly accurate on the fact that accidents and catastrophes like wildland fire fatalities are inevitable and a “part of life” as he states.”
And of course that is a philosophy shared by Dr. Putnam as well and I used to believe it also. But during the past 6 years as I have for the first time in my life really thought about WLF safety, especially every hotshot death on the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill Fires, I have come to realize that none of those deaths were an accident.
All of those deaths were caused by conscious decisions followed by subsequent deliberate actions and therefore were 100 % preventable deaths had four men who were in charge followed the standardized and universally accepted WLF safety rules.
And as I have stated before, I would bet the death of Brian Hughes of the Arrowhead Hotshots on the Ferguson Fire was preventable had best practices and standard safety protocols been followed such as the proper use of a spotter. I think the other hotshot deaths (I think there were two) in recent years from tree strikes may also been preventable had established safety procedures been properly followed.
I recall another death in recent years of a highly experienced smokejumper who was killed by a falling widow maker from a tree he was cutting down on a small fire and he wasn’t even wearing his hard hat. Which is exactly the kind of things smokejumpers do because they are so cool, the normal rules that govern most WLF just don’t apply to them.
Anyway, I have lost track of what I thought you thought, but here are the two salient points I was referring to.
1. Our very attempts to stave off disaster by introducing safety systems ultimately increase the overall complexity of the systems, ensuring that some unpredictable outcome will rear its ugly head no matter what.
And that is how I think of WLF safety rules to a great extent. And for others out there, I can tell you that all of the rules came into place after firefighters were killed on fires, they then made a rule that you they shouldn’t do that any more.
And it seems to me I have argued against all of the rules since Day 1 and you have argued for all of the rules since Day 1. For example, I think everything that needs to be covered is covered in the 10 Standard Firefighting Orders and the 18 Situations That Shout Watch Out should be abolished because they are unnecessary, redundant and in some cases just plain silly that were taught to me by cartoon characters.
I never needed a cartoon character to teach me that if you feel like taking a nap near the fire line, then that is a situation that shouts “Watch Out”. I would have hoped that if I had been the kind of WLF who needed to be told not to take naps near the fireline, or naps on fires anywhere, rather than teach me not to do that by making learn a rule against doing so by rote, they would just have made me seek other employment by firing me instead.
I know without knowing it, that the rule came into effect because somebody was killed because they were taking a nap near the fire line. In what parallel universe do WLF take naps while on the fire line anyway? I mean, hotshots often accidentally fall asleep for short naps during short breaks while cutting fireline because they have been awake for a couple of days but that is under the watchful eyes of crew or squad bosses and while sitting in tool order with everyone else.
Thankfully, BLM Alaska State Director Tom Allen, who was either co-chair to BLM Arizona State Director Les Rosenkrance or his deputy of the SAIT for the South Canyon Fire Disaster decided that WLF had enough rules and making more of them wasn’t the way to go, but to instead re-emphasize the rules that were already in place. I think they should just add a number 11 to the 10 standard rules.
11. Do not fight wildfire while you have your head up your ass.
2. What makes the Boeing disaster so frustrating is the relative obviousness of the problem in retrospect. Psychologists and economists have a term for this; it’s called “hindsight bias,” the tendency to see causes of prior events as obvious and predictable, even when the world had no clue leading up to them.
And like I said, I have lost track of where you are at on this, but that was what our detractors have accused us of since Day 1 and how the SAIT excused Marsh and Steed in their SAIR. They said we only knew it was a bad idea to hike down that chimney in front of a racing wild fire because of hindsight bias. And it looked like a reasonable decision to them and something they would have done as well because the Helms’ property looked “so close.”
I’m sorry, but that is simply not true. I know they shouldn’t have hiked down that chimney at any time mush less in front of a racing wild fire because everybody knows that is one of the worst things you can do on a wildfire. There was one of the widows who said her husband had told her that no one should ever go down a chimney, chute or canyon on a fire while they were deer hunting. The crew knew not to do that, they knew they were wrong, most, if not all of them didn’t want to go down that chimney. We know Steed argued against that idea three times.
There are many other professions out there that routinely kill their workers such as police and structural firefighters. Which other profession make up silly rules that are taught by cartoon characters every time they have some one killed on the job?
I mean…there have been cases where police officers have been shot in the head while either sitting in their cruisers asleep or doing paperwork at night. Did any police departments ever make up a rule that said, “If you feel like taking a nap while sitting upright in your patrol car at night…that is a situation that Shouts Watch Out!”
Nope.
You just can’t make up a rule to cover every possible way a WLF can get killed on a fire and for decades, we as an industry tried to do that. I guess I am of the Paul Gleason school of thought on speed because he made up a new rule whereas I just want to eliminate rules and do like Tom Allen said, re-emphasize teaching the basics which I thin are covered in the 10.
And just FYI to others out there, for most of my time as a hotshot there were just “13 Situations That Shouted Watch Out” and then over time they added five more, but I’m pretty sure they didn’t save any lives by doing so. It just made some managers feel better because they were able to say they adderessed the problem by writing new code to be programmed into the heads of WLF.
In fact, (I have posted this link before) I am of the Sgt. Phil Esterhaus School Of Thought who starred in my favorite training videos for the entire time I was majoring in Criminal Justice in college…”Hill Street Blues.”
Therefore, I think there should just be ONE (1) wild land firefighter rule, “Let’s Be Careful Out There.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_pIkkzDagsY
Everything contained in the 10, the 18 and even Paul Gleason’s LCES should be hammered over and over again in wild land firefighter beginning, intermediate and advanced and in-service training courses, but not made into rules that need to be routinely memorized by rote.
I don’t know how they came up with this number exactly, but the instructor staff at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Georgia like to tell their classes that they are responsible for teaching 1000 separate and specific things that have been identified to those who attend FLETC.
Even those who create and maintain the obsessively anal retentive and highly structured separate training programs at FLETC don’t try to create safety lists of things for students to learn to recite by rote.
They just hammer those things into their students heads over and over again and then they test on what they hammered over and over again and hammer it home one more time as they go over the weekly tests.
In other words, I think concentrating on making WLF specifically memorize the following rules is condescending, juvenile, insulting, comical, repetitive, and most importantly ignores other equally important basic WLF protocols while overemphasizing these select few simply because they were identified as being the primary causal factors in what otherwise were random deaths through what I think was probably an oversimplification of what really happened since no serious incident is ever the result of only one or two things but rather a series of poor choices resulting from a domino, cascading and Swiss Cheese effect many factors that are intertwined and inseparable.
Fire not scouted and sized up.
In country not seen in daylight.
Safety zones and escape routes not identified.
Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior.
Uninformed on strategy, tactics, and hazards.
Instructions and assignments not clear.
No communication link between crew members and supervisors.
Constructing line without safe anchor point.
Building line downhill with fire below.
Attempting frontal assault on fire.
Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
Cannot see main fire, not in contact with anyone who can.
On a hillside where rolling material can ignite fuel below.
Weather gets hotter and drier.
Wind increases and/or changes direction.
Getting frequent spot fires across line.
Terrain or fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
Feel like taking a nap near fire-line
But…if I was King For a Day I might keep the 10 Standard Firefighting Rukes just for old times sake.
Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
Know what your fire is doing at all times.
Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
Identify escape routes and safety zones and make them known.
Post a lookout where there is possible danger
Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.
Maintain prompt communication with your forces, your supervisor, and adjoining forces.
Give clear instructions and insure they are understood
Maintain control of your forces at all times.
Fight fire aggressively, having provided for safety first
But seriously, do you think we really need to remind WLF supervisors they must “Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively” and the nine others rules?
Or do you think we need to find new supervisions who don’t need lists to remind them they must, “Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively?”
But most importantly, what I have learned over the past six (6) years in addition to what I already knew. is that I can’t believe or accept anything that is taught on this web site because if you lie to me once, I will always be looking for the next lie.
And that’s a real fuckin’ shame.
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/main_library.html
And of course I don’t know how widespread this belief is now, or even when I was on the fire line, but…I was under the impression from others who were wiser and more experienced than I was that all of the rules weren’t for the benefit of wild land firefighters.
I was taught that the rules were for the benefit of wild land firefighting management because whenever somebody was killed or seriously injured, they could go down the list an say it happened because they violated this rule or that rule, so nothing was management or the agency’s fault, and so blame the individual firefighter because we told them not to do that.
I now think that perception that the rules were just a CYA for management wasn’t completely fair and accurate, but I do think there is some truth to it.
It’s like everything…it’s complicated and heavily nuanced. And I am often conflicted and always happy I’m not in charge of anything anymore since I can just throw things against the wall to see what sticks without any real life consequences for getting it wrong.
Oh…and one more thing. The 1000 individual, distinct and separate tasks or things that FLETC says they have to teach every cadet, is just for the entry level non agency specific general course which is called “Police Training.” The number of things to teach and know goes up exponentially from that number for every advanced course after that one. But still…there are no lists to memorize by rote other than keep your head out of your ass while on the job.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
May 1, 2019 at 11:51 am
>> Gay Olson said…
>>
>> But most importantly, what I have learned
>> over the past six (6) years in addition to
>> what I already knew. is that I can’t believe
>> or accept anything that is taught on this
>> web site because if you lie to me once,
>> I will always be looking for the next lie.
>>
>> And that’s a real fuckin’ shame.
>>
>> https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/main_library.html
From that page… the ‘Library’ to pick from…
——————————————————
– 1910 Idaho Fire
– Bar Harbor Fire
– Battlement Creek Fire
– Blackwater Fire
– Cart Creek Fire
– Cerro Grande Fire
– Dude Fire
– Loop Fire
– Mack Lake Fire
– Mann Gulch Fire
– Rattlesnake Fire
– Rock Creek Fire
– South Canyon Fire
– Thirtymile Fire
————————————————–
Yarnell isn’t even there.
Not even an ‘icon’ for it on their ‘interactive map’.
We only lost 19 at once. No big whoop, right?
Nothing to see ( or even learn ) there.
Move along.
And I should have said, “accept at face value” because a great deal of information from the staff rides listed on that website will be factual.
But that is the real problem and why their lies are so insidious, they are intermingled with the truth and therefore are much harder and in most cases, simply impossible to identify which leaves me disbelieving everything they say until I have confirmed their veracity by my own groundproofing which is impossible in almost every instance.
I mean…I was on the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster and witnessed most of what happened first hand and I still don’t know everything they are lying about. I have identified many of their lies and Dr. Putnam identified many more, but I seriously doubt we know everything they lied about.
The reason that the Yarnell Hill Fire is not included on the Fireline Leadership website and in that list is because it was an Arizona STATE Wildland Fire. All the others are Federal fires.
That is what the AZ Forestry Bill Boyd and OMNA International say …
Random Thoughts For The Day
1. Except for the slaughterhouse industry. I think the average Undocumented Alien (UDA) probably gets about the same amount of training in the average meat packing house as the average wild land firefighter does?
The biggest difference is that the companies pay for the UDA’s to receive that training and they get paid to attend. Whereas the FIRE agencies force WLF hopefuls to pay for their own training and attend that training put on by private contractors for free.
Is that the agencies fault? Nope. It’s YOU PEOPLES fault because you have allowed your political representatives to starve the FIRE agency budgets because YOU PEOPLE want a first class wild land firefighting force, but you don’t want to pay for it.
2. I really hate to give any traction to Sad Sacks and the GMIHC opinion that the WLF safety rules are “hillbilly” because every one of them was paid for by WLF lives, but…maybe they could use some updating?
I think in the really old days when the Forest Ranger emptied out the bars and rounded up all of the farmers and ranchers to go up on the mountain to fight forest fires..probably having farmer John lay down to take a nap near the fire line was a bigger problem than it is today?
I also think they could be gone through by the federal Department Of Redundancy Department for you know…some redundancy redundancy reduction?
Today’s workforce was raised on video games and TV 📺 after all and there should be some effort to at least try and hold their attention long enough to memorize the rules by rote, however silly some of them seem now because they aren’t silly, just their presentation and format is.
And some of them fit in the Knowledge, Skills and Abilitues section for WLF, not in the safety section.
Because like I said, during my formative years in the USFS my world view was pretty narrow. It didn’t reach beyond our Fire Base, our field work, airports, fire camps and fire lines.
But…I wasn’t taught the rules were for us, they were for THEM. And if that is still a problem along with the kids of today thinking they are Hillbilly, maybe some changes need to be made to accommodate idiots like Sad Sack, because he might not be alone in his thinking?
In fact, and just as a reminder, there wouldn’t have been a single hotshot death from being burned to death in the history of hotshots from had four men not made the very same bad decision on four separate fires.
But since all four men did make the very same bad decision on four separate fires, the total number of hotshot dead from being burned to death now totals 43.
And I only need one (1) digit in order to list the very same bad decision all four men made on the Loop. Battlement Creek, South Canyon, and Yarnell Hill Fires now that I am a student of all four fires.
Imagine that…zero hotshot deaths from being burned to death had this ONE (1) rule been followed. And that ONE (1) rule is:
1. Do not work or hike in canyons that are natural chimneys for wild fires either in front of, or above said fires…period, end of story.
That’s it…pretty fuckin’ simple.
Whoops,
I mischaracterized what Dr. Putnam has written in the past. He didn’t say that all WLF deaths aren’t preventable, he said that you can’t successfully fight wildfires and follow all of the wild land firefighting rules at the same time.
And I agree with the world’s foremost wildfire fatality investigator in these 2 extremely important points:
1. Wildland firefighter fatalities are preventable.
2. It’s impossible to follow every single rule all of the time & successfully fight fire. (the rules effectively serve as a guide to absolve management from any fault & create a convenient check-off list to use for placing all of the blame on firefighters instead of management )
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/fire_safety_up_in_smoke.pdf
Story Time
I did go on a fire once and I was going lackadaisical, panic, have muddled thoughts, and be indecisive, but thank goodness I reviewed my 10 Standard Firefighting Orders and it said I should, Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. and Act decisively so I did that instead.
Although like I said, for the first time in my life I am giving WLF safety some serious thought. And now that I think about it, I don’t know of any other inherently dangerous profession that spends so little to train its people before it throws them into the gaping maw of a fiery dragon 🐉 up on the mountain 🏔, so maybe we need a few more lists?
Marsh definitely should have reviewed the 10, 18 and LCES prior to repeatedly ordering his crew to their deaths. I just trying to work through some things in my head. And that ain’t easy since I’m me.
Stay in a 400 plus Acer burned area or go down a brush filled canyon in front of a flaming front of a moving fire to a one acer cleared ranch Safety Zone????? I agree with you Gary it dose not take a Genius to figure that out with out the 10 and 18,
Where is your best safety????
**
** THE VANESSA PURDY PHOTOGRAPHS – NEW VIDEO CROSSFADES
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 21, 2019 at 2:11 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Both ( the Vanessa Purdy ) photographs indicate suggestive evidence
>> of the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor firing operation on the
>> afternoon of June 30, 2013
I am still ‘neutral’ about what the two Vanessa Purdy photographs might be ‘indicating’ ( I am NOT an FBAN nor a smoke expert )… but here are TWO new video ‘crossfades’ which at least show EXACTLY what the ‘fields of view’ are for BOTH of those Vanessa Purdy photographs.
For BOTH photographs… a ‘crossfade’ takes place into the equivalent Google Earth view… and the LEFT side and RIGHT side SIGHTLINES are indicated with ‘white lines’ extending off into the distance.
So at least we can now see, with a high degree of accuracy, EXACTLY WHERE the ‘smoke’ in those photographs COULD ( or COULD NOT ) have been at the time the photographs were taken.
NOTE: Both photographs are assumed to have been taken circa 4:30 PM that day.
** PURDY PHOTO 1
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire – 2013 – Purdy Photo 1
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/LeAUmxUVS2s
** PURDY PHOTO 2
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire – 2013 – Purdy Photo 2
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/u7UldNlKd3I
WTKTT,
Fine work once again. Thank you.
Two points of clarification are necessary:
(1) Why are the sightlines of the two photographs taken from approximately the same area dissimilar, i.e. one broad and one narrow? I thought sightlines were from the perspective of the photographer or from the perspective of the one / thing being photographed.
(2) How did you conclude the photos were taken around 4:30 PM (1630)?
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 27, 2019 at 8:25 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Two points of clarification are necessary:
>>
>> (1) Why are the sightlines of the two photographs taken from approximately
>> the same area dissimilar, i.e. one broad and one narrow? I thought
>> sightlines were from the perspective of the photographer or from
>> the perspective of the one / thing being photographed.
>>
>> (2) How did you conclude the photos were taken around 4:30 PM (1630)?
** RE (1)
It’s legitimate to use the ‘sightline’ approach used in these two videos, whereby you concentrate on the LEFT EDGE ( vertical ) and the RIGHT EDGE ( vertical ) sightlines… and then extrapolate them off into the distance. Notice in each photo that the WHITE ‘sightline’ marks are, in fact, equal to the VERTICAL edge of the photographs when viewed from the origin point and the ‘perspective’ of the camera. In other words… if you put VERTICAL lines on both the LEFT and RIGHT edges of a photograph that correspond to the EDGES of the photo… and you extrapolate those into the distance… there really can’t be anything OUTISDE those lines that could have possibly been captured by the camera.
Hence… you now have the complete “field of view” for that photograph.
When you can’t actually SEE ‘landmarks’ that are far in the distance in order to determine ‘sightlines’ ( such as in this case, when all the distant landmarks are obscured by smoke, etc. )… this VERTICAL EDGE approach might not be perfect… but it’s still valid and the results can be considered ‘accurate’.
That being said… the FIRST Purdy photo actually DOES have one small ‘distant landmark’ that verifies the LEFT sightline, and the actual orientation of the camera.
I’m talking about the ‘thin’ orange line on the left side of that photograph after it fades down. Maybe this actually the ‘broad’ versus ‘narrow’ line thing you were actually referring to?
That thin / narrow ‘orange’ line is showing you that there is/was this one small spot just above the roof of the trailer where a ‘distant’ point on the Weaver Mountain ridge actually IS still ‘visible’ in the photograph.
Just watch the fade again on that PURDY 1 photo… then watch as the ‘orange line’ appears. It is pointing to the top of the roof and that one, small smoke-free section where you can actually see an identifiable ‘ridge point’ way out there on the Weavers.
Since the sky was ‘clear enough’ at that moment ( over the roof ) to actually SEE that distant point on the Weavers… the ‘orange line’ in the Google Earth view then shows you the farthest extent of ANY smoke and where the ‘clear air’ still was at that time.
** RE ( 2 )
As far as the TIME goes… the reason I have only said ‘circa 4:30 PM’ is because the time(s) for these photos has NOT yet been verified.
But ( at this moment ) I think it can be assumed they were both taken ‘circa’ that time… maybe a little earlier… but I’d still put money on a 4:24 PM to 4:30 PM ‘window’ for the following reasons…
1. I compared both photos to OTHER known photos of the same area taken in this 4:24 PM to 4:30 PM timeframe ( Byron Kimball photos, Blue Ridge photos, etc. )… and they seem to ‘jive’ with those other known photos and known timestamps.
2. One of the articles containing one of the photos actually SAID that ( according to Vanessa Purdy herself ) it was taken “just a few minutes after receiving an emergency 911 evacuation order”. Depending on what “a few minutes” means… it would still ( generally ) put the TIME into that same 4:24 PM to 4:30 PM ‘window’.
3. When I alerted you ( down below ) about the existence of that SECOND Purdy photo sitting on a public web page… I also pointed out that the actual FILENAME of that second Purdy photo sitting on that web server has a TIME of ‘4:30 PM’ harcoded in the filename itself.
What I actually said ( down below ) was…
—————————————————————————————-
On April 20, 2019 at 6:46 pm WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Here is a DIRECT LINK to that SECOND ‘Vanessa Purdy’ photo which accompanies the article listed above..
Notice the ‘timestamp’ of 4:30 PM in the image filename itself….
http://outdoorstorms.com/images/YarnellFireImages/YarnellSequence_FireSpread_430PM_TDolan.jpg
—————————————————————————————-
So, until more information emerges, we can ‘take a leap’ and assume that the author of that article ( Dolan? ) actually ‘verified’ the time with either Purdy herself, or some other way, before putting that “430PM” timestamp into the FILENME itself.
Maybe he had access to an ‘original copy’ of that photo… and that actually IS the TIMESTAMP embedded in the EXIF metadata itself…. and it’s accurate.
Followup…
Apologies… only after hitting ‘Send’ did I actually fully ‘grok’ the question you were actually asking above.
You said…
>> (1) Why are the sightlines of the two photographs taken from
>> approximately the same area dissimilar, i.e. one broad and
>> one narrow?
Because one of the photos is a RECTANGLE and the other is a SQUARE.
“PURDY 1” is a normal-ratio rectangle, and so the ‘sightlines end up being a ‘wider wedge’ that if it wasn’t.
“P”URDY 2” ( the annotated version of it found on that public website ) is more of a SQUARE… so the “field of view” wedge has to end up being SMALLER ( narrower ) that it would for a normal rectangular ‘aspect ratio’.
FOOTNOTE: The ‘PURDY 2’ photo is not truly a SQUARE… but it IS ‘smaller’ ( narrower ) than the ‘PURDY 1’ photo… so that’s why the ‘field of view’ for ‘PURDY 2’ also comes out ‘smaller’ ( narrower ).
“Seems to jive” doesn’t work for me on time. Sorry.
You’ve, once again, done amazing things with analysis and scenario recreation with the best tools and available evidence, BUT, we don’t have solid, factual, complete, and irrefutable information on TIMES nor are we certain we have all available evidence for analysis.
Therefore, the possibility of firing operations as a primary causal factor in the crew entrapment , much to the consternation of the powers that be, is still on the table. It’s still on my table until proven otherwise.
The Woodsman
Just “solid” and “factual” and “complete” and “irrefutable information on TIMES” and that’s all you expect?
Are you sure there’s no more?
Oh wait. There’s also “all available evidence for analysis.”
Only that too? Are you sure there is nothing else?
Well, since you asked, I want the whole truth & nothing but the truth unredacted written statements from every single person involved the Yarnell Hill fire, signed under their full commercial liability as public employees. I’d like certified copies mailed to mail sealed with tamper-proof tape so I’m the 1st one to open the package.
Option 2: A secure office space where I can witness the signed complete honest factual accounts by each and every person involved in the Yarnell Hill fire after I individually interview them in person. I want box lunches provided to me & spring water/unsweetened tea with lemon as this will be a no time limit, multi-day procedure. Also a place to pitch my shelter and access to a hot shower.
If I think of anything else, I’ll let you know. Thanks!
Correction: should be “mailed to ME…” not mailed to “mail.”
Let me know when you make this happen so I can clear my calendar. Thanks!
And for option 2, I want Gary Olson with me.
I’ll be there. My calender is pretty much already cleared…you know, all of the time.
Woodsman,
Such an idealist you are.
You posted that you want “the whole truth & nothing but the truth unredacted written statements from every single person involved the Yarnell Hill fire, signed under their full commercial liability as public employees. I’d like certified copies mailed to mail sealed with tamper-proof tape so I’m the 1st one to open the package.”
I think everyone that wants to know the truth about the YH Fire wants that as well. And those that do not want that want just the opposite. Good luck on the “certified copies sealed with tamper-proof tape.” Is there even such a thing as tamper proof-tape?
And then there is your “Option 2: A secure office space where I can witness the signed complete honest factual accounts by each and every person involved in the Yarnell Hill fire after I individually interview them in person. I want box lunches provided to me & spring water/unsweetened tea with lemon as this will be a no time limit, multi-day procedure. Also a place to pitch my shelter and access to a hot shower.”
OMG! A true whining Liberal at its finest.
Do you want your bread buttered or plain?
Are you sure you want just “access to a shower” and not the actual shower itself? Or would you prefer instead of a nice bubble bath?
And definitely, if you think of anything else, let you know.
Here’s a good one for you that I just came across that supports the accidents are inevitable and normal.
“When Making Things Better Only Makes Them Worse
Our very attempts to stave off disaster make unpredictable outcomes more likely.”
Apr 26, 2019 by Erik Larson is an entrepreneur and former research scientist at the University of Texas at Austin, where he specialized in machine learning and natural language processing. He is the author of The Myth of Artificial Intelligence forthcoming from Harvard University Press.
And of course … the link
( https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/why-accidents-like-notre-dame-fire-happen/587956/?utm_source=pocket-newtab )
RTS,
Which part of my requests made you the most uncomfortable?
Woodsman,
What do you think … the box lunches
What I think is that it wasn’t the box lunches, beverages, the access to a shower, or the tamper-proof tape. I think it’s something else.
I just want to say you know, can we…can we all just get along, can, can we get along? Can we stop making it horrible for the old people like me? We are on a countdown now to the truth about the YHF Disaster?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0
Oh…and one more thing. And I don’t even want box lunches at all because those almost always suck. I want executive lunch hours so we can go to restaurants.
Okay, Rodney. I’ll try to be good…but there’s just so much material…okay, okay.
Story Time
The Tonto was infamous fit delivering frozen sack lunches by helicopter because they were afraid they would rot in the heat I guess?
I always specified the sandwiches had to be made out of wheat bread when I did my local preplanning contracts firveverything from sack lunches to heavy equipment as every Forest does as part of their FIRE plan.
Anyway…the Tonto was found of letting their contractors exclusively really cheap white bread for their sack lunches that we had to break open because they were frozen and then lay them on rocks in the sun to melt which of course didn’t take long given the ambient temperatures in the sun would be well over 100 degrees.
And yes…you are right, the result would be almost inedible goo of white mush with green meat, gooey cheese and the worst apples or oranges money could buy.
The chips and cookies (or whatever) were okay though.
But even on their best day, box or sack lunches sucked back in my day. There was zero quality control over how local cafes put those things together and the attitude was always…you’re lucky to get anything at all, so shut the fuck up and eat what we give you.
Of course for local family cafes in small towns, having hundreds and sometimes thousands of WLF showing up completely unexpected and almost overnight that need to be fed is always problematic….I imagine?
But once they have a few days to get FIRE contract caterers into a fire camp, there was always good food, even the sack lunches were good. But…they have the experience and their logistics all figured out ahead of time and with them, that is their business so there is quality control because they want to keep their contracts as Tory travel from fire camp to fire camp.
It works the same with shower contractors. They haul in huge shower trailers with everything they need. It always amazed me how small cities that support hundreds or even thousands of WLF can be built in the middle of nowhere in just a couple of days. Most people probably don’t realize just how much logistical work goes into fighting wildfires by lots of people who never even see the fire.
Oh…and one more thing. I am a whiney bitch (non gender specific) and damn proud of it. It’s part of my rite of passage into the geriatric class, kinda like my discount for a movie ticket.
In fact, usually we would arrive at a staging area and then be immediately sent to the fire for our first shift that could last up to 36 hours or more as gas often been said on this thread.
But…by the time we made it back to the same staging area where nothing had been, there would be a small city set up to provide for our every need, including a police force…amazing.
Well if the time is 4:24-4:30 how long had that fire been set before that to make that smoke stack? So Joy and I had talked to Howard and Bruce and they had seen smoke in that area much earlier. They were right on the NW edge of Glen Isla and their testimony indicated around 3:30. I am not sure Joy retrieved any photos from them but I was in Phoenix area where we hunted Howard up and after loosing everything he was glad to be out of the area. His wife was ill as well–so many fell ill after the massive retardant dumps.
Bruce did not want to talk much about the fire–I saw him in the American Legion and also at his yard sale where Joy interviewed him. He did not have his house burn but he had a direct view of all the smoke toward the Helms off his back Yard.
Of course the investigators never interviewed either one of them and I suspect the would not like their testimony.
I suspect Joy will come up with evidence of the actual times of photos, testimonies and so forth. I have a hunch those photos are much earlier and jive with what Howard and Bruce said.
Reply to Woodsman post on April 28, 2019 at 4:50 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>> “Seems to jive” doesn’t work for me on time. Sorry.
The EXACT ‘times’ for those photos is most likely going to change, as more becomes known about these photographs… but just based on comparing things to other photos… it will probably remain ‘late afternoon’ on June 30, 2013.
The “fields of view” will, however, probably NOT change.
However many photographs were taken at that location, at whatever time(s), at least there will now be a ‘base reference’ for SIGHTLINES.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> You’ve, once again, done amazing things with analysis
>> and scenario recreation with the best tools and available
>> evidence, BUT, we don’t have solid, factual, complete,
>> and irrefutable information on TIMES
Nope. Not yet.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> nor are we certain we have all available evidence for analysis.
Correct.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Therefore, the possibility of firing operations as a primary
>> causal factor in the crew entrapment , much to the
>> consternation of the powers that be, is still on the table.
>> It’s still on my table until proven otherwise.
Of course it is still “on the table”… but your statement still has TWO parts to it…
(1) The possibility of a firing operation
(2) as a PRIMARY causal factor in the crew entrapment
If (1) didn’t happen… then (2) also did not… but even if it can be PROVEN that (1) happened… that doesn’t automatically ( also ) confirm (2).
It’s complicated.
Agreed. Thanks.
Well a lot of this is becoming more clear in my mind thanks to WTKTT, Gary Olson, Woodsman, RTS, Norb, and even Holly Niel. Holly’s article pointed out the stobs–something to be seen very close to the Helms but hundreds of yards–maybe 700 or 800 yards away from the stobs at the death site where GMHS had cut around themselves in a futile attempt to save their lives. So maybe Holley will come on and tell us more–Amanda permitting–about the truth of why those stobs were located where they were.
You see Howard and Bruce that lived right along the area–Bruce almost adjacent to the Helms 40 acre ranch had told us about seeing smoke in that area as early as about 3;30 PM that day. Now that I have had some education here about these things such as burn outs, It stands to reason that someone was actually cutting line there at the Helms where these stobs that Holley points out were located. If indeed they were cutting line through that Manzanita brush, they with Gary’s input, it would be burn–“that is what the wild land fire fighter does”. And there would be no other good reason to cut line in there since Helms was already “bomb proof” and considered by the fire elites to be a safety zone. So the torchers would have an very close proximity to a safe zone if they were doing line and a burn in there.
With all the evidence and what I would surmise if I were Sherlock Holmes, those men had set a burn right in there–The Purdy photos would verify that–those were not ember spot fires at all in the photo and unless you see the actual time line of the photos, it would not have been 4:30 but much earlier at the same time Howard, Bruce, and some others told Joy and I they saw smoke in there.. A burn in that area would make sense to protect Glen Isla if they knew that the GMHS were not on their way down into the death trap box canyon and believed them to be still in the black. I can not imagine anything different at this point. Perhaps Joy can come up with some provable time frames–yet we have competent witnesses testimony as to time frames of the smoke stacks in the area including the Shrine–much earlier than the 4:30 PM stated for the Purdy photos.
You see I hiked right through there and know where the stobs are located: however, since Holly spent 11 days with the Helms, her testimony as to the exact situation concerning the stobs might be an aid to understanding and that depends upon how much she wants to follow the lead of Amanda. It is so hard to get dependable evidence from those involved with Amanda concerning the facts of the fire itself–though you might learn a lot of personal information as we saw in the movie.
Perhaps Holly, Joy or someone else will post the article for all to review concerning the stobs.
Jeff that is Yarnell Fire Chief might be in for a run for his money. Joy with all her training–she is getting even more in California this week–has been having thoughts of becoming the Yarnell Fire Chief. Well she knows just about every soul there and has been there for well over ten years. It would be a hard thing to turn her down considering her value in helping prove the truth of what killed the men and how and now with her qualifications as a wild land fire fighter–what less could she deserve as a job as Yarnell Fire Chieftress. For sure she would not be lax in putting out wild land fires near Yarnell even if they are lightening strikes. She would also make sure people kept up on their defensible space and I know how many times she pulled weeds freely for the elderly and disabled–so that would be a given.
I miss Bret Yodel–He passed a few months after the fire –long time quadriplegic from a car accident-I still have the Gibson that I bought at the Yard Sales his relatives were having. It has SG on it–my initials- it is a SG Gibson electric, well used but perfect sounding–and I play it quite often. Maybe I will sing a sad song and some get over the heart break of the death of those youngsters. I will be coming up on 76 but did get those telephone poles in the air and that porch put in except the screening in. The right arm does not work as well after the gunshot but the left is getting stronger. I built the steps to the porch (it is up 3-4 ft on 36 ancient railroad ties (some nails dated 1922) that I cut and buried more that two ft. in the ground. The roof is supported by telephone poles that hold up 20 foot telephone poles that I set the rafters on. I put plywood down then heavy metal rooffing so I have a surround porch with 2×6 and 2×4 flooring. So if you weigh even 700 pounds you won’t fall through. Now I have 20 375 wat solar panels to piss ant up the ladder and mount on the roof of this porch—8×40 foot wrap around but the way a miner and mucker does it–I lost the bad part. But one thing for sure if the water gets high, I am dry. Well the logging helped too–a faller–but woodsman selling fire wood for quite a number of years–probably could carve Ice like Joy does with a chain saw. (I only dropped the saw on my leg once–when I changed bar lengths–it cut a nasty hole in my leg but I never bothered to go get it sewed up so I have a nice long scar there to go along with that big burn scar caused by that Fire Chief in Las Cruces when he put a glass jug on a wood stove my dad kept at his Gas Station. Mom saved my life (4 year old) by dunking me into the ice coke box–those days the cokes were kept cold by ice and water and the old Coca Cola Boxes were quite large and ample room to dunk a 4 year old. Skin graphs helped that scar to not look as bad as it could have. Well life can be dangerous-you realize that when you dog shoots you in the back with your 12 gauge. That right arm is coming back but a pain to reach up high with it. Yet in all the strange incidents of life I feel damn happy and fortunate to be alive–and looking at what happened to the young 17 under the care of their bosses, you have to watch out even for the more intelligent things in your life. Too bad when men begin to look out for their own personal aggrandizement while forgetting the most precious asset they are in command of–that is the lives of those young heroes they killed due to their negligence and lack of due regard to the lives of their crew.
But then last night I watched the Holocaust movie and see how good German men would take orders to commit genocide–and even confronted they found excuse for their actions. Mainly pass the buck upstairs if they did not say they were doing the world a favor by eliminating human beings that were of different ethnic and religious leanings. Of course we want to believe the actions that killed the GMHS youngsters was not deliberate, but even that is questionable considering the way every common sense rule that boss firefighters know were broken and no matter how much they say as Willis did–those men had to protect structures–thats what they do—It boggles the mind that anyone of good sense and intelligence would believe that. Hey the bosses knew the gravity of the situation–waving a pulaski at a wild land fire of ultimate and extreme magnitude equal to atom bomb energy every 15 minutes and laying down 100-200ft flames where all the jumbo jet retardant they could supply and even an army of men –would be like a mouse trying to mate with an Elephant–as the joke went when the Elephant let out that humongous roar–did I hurt you honey? No the excuses and imaginations of people making up these stories are listened to by the public because of their ignorance of wild land fire fighting–but if they knew what the wild land fire fighters know there was no way they would encounter the danger of flanking a fire in extreme wind and weather changes just to take care of a few abandoned buildings. Yet the public does not know and the fire fighting honchos do not want the press in there to educate people as to what is really going on. That carte blanche public tax money to fight fires and the hero worship might diminish and greatly in some cases.
Well there is more to the story for certain. Now that I see the photos as posted I see there were more than just the Shrine burn and with three smoke stacks early on there was burning going on at more than just the Helms area. What the hell was Marsh thinking–something that creates the wonder was he directing his own demise and his crew along with him? There is just to much evidence that gives me the willies about this. Why I say use an FBI profiler–use the men that have not degraded themselves into positions of delusion and methods of deluding the public and even the loved ones where they have been deprived of the facts that killed their loved ones.
to be continued
Joy has let me know there is more to be revealed and she has it stored and under wraps–just getting permissions and doing things the right way so people that have these photos and proof of these burns placated. She does not want to loose people’s confidence and therefore dry up her sources. But the facts are coming out soon and I am assured we will not be long in getting them. I
I assured her that many will not like the truth out there. Yet the loved ones deserve it and perhaps not now early on but in time we all must know why when we loose someone cherished in our hearts. It does make things some better knowing, yet the loved one is always remembered and heart felt in sorrow. If there is a Catholic Jesus Ted Gilligan, my son, is looking down–and some day I will meet him and know why he died before his time.
But I am a Universalist in Religion, all good if the principles are–bad if you are of the mind to say kill Infadels because they won’t bonk their heads five times a day–and the green object in the sky that Joy just photographed, perhaps she will share a link to it and more photos. It might well be the Irish Gods in their green space craft checking up on earth. I wish she would also share the photo of that apparition that appeared at Aguila, Arizona one moonlighted night right on my 5 acres north of town. So yes to psychic abilities and yes to scientists who estimate there should be according to math some 500,000 planets with life in this Galaxy alone. And just because you think there is no way to go those long distances in space then you are like the men who said there was no way man could ever fly or go to the moon. We are at the beginning of knowledge and know nothing much about 11 dimensions beyond our own and parallel universes right in our own time. Well known that Einstein proved that if you took off at the speed of light and returned some 50 years later earth time, most of your buddies would have aged 50 years if they were alive and you still would only be minutes older to greet them. So the time warp is just a fact that we know little of except that it is a fact of physics and mathematics that does exist.
I have 20 Solar panels to haul up–I have not much time left on this earth but it is well to get away from green house gasses. Of course it took energy to make the panels but over time I think the panels win the race to keep the earth CO2 down some. The Chinese are on board with this thought, Trump says it is phoey. But plastics, retatdant, and all other pollutants are benefiting the makers much and doing the environment irreparable harm. Trump might say well we need to rid the planet of all these poor people-=-but his heart is hard like the Hitler was with human life and I mean not only the Jews–he caused the death of millions of non Jews, his own armies of men and other civilians. So wear the Swastika if you like but I grant in my way of thinking you are another case of ignorance and hubris. And can pride be a good thing? Only if it bears good and is founded upon truth and reason.
You would think 75 years on this planet I would know something. But if it is how to get money rich, not so. But I do feel rich looking at the apricot trees budding with small green apricots, a garden that has tomatoes, potatoes, spices and chillies and some other things growing. No weed in my case but it is likely a good medicine for some things. And a heart that is rich in life’s experiences. Thoreau was an Englishman that looked down on Irishmen. But he had some good things to say–he said a man ought to be able to build himself a home. I have done that and followed his example of independent living. An Irishman American listens to an Englishman? Well not often, but many of the English are of the finest people. It is the politicians that blight things in any country. Generally the English would never have stood by and watch the Irish die like flies from starvation during the potatoe famine of 1845–but the leaders–King and political subjects delighted in it. But they did not know that they were Blessing America with so many Irish. Yet don’t expect them to be driving Deloreans.
Good tidings and blessing to all, especially to those contributing here and my hiking pal Joy–a case and a hero in my way of thinking.
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 5:49 PM Arizona.Desert.Walker wrote:
Well…once again, absolutely amazing work that brings so much clarity to the event. In fact, the work WTKTT did with these photographs make it very hard for me to visualize or comprehend how a backfire out of the Shrine area could have possibly have been a significant factor in the deaths of the crew given the distance, and topography versus time. I am prepared to be schooled…but I remain a skeptic.
Then You have not paid attention…the THEME always has been the chutes and chimneys Sesame to Shrine corridors not just the Shrine…the areas spurred all around that leads into the DZ
It entailed laying fire on areas without even any anchor point
Sorry but I alerted JD and he was cool I back channel to have some assistance and so far that person is just busy doing other stuff I reckon but there is much more and because I saw no interest back channel I stopped emailing more data as I planned when I awoke today. I felt THAT PERSON must have a busy day so I will make mine such way too.
I await your revelations with great anticipation and an appropriate degree of gratitude and level of awe for everything you have done in furtherance of the truth and to make the scales fall from my eyes, God Bless and God speed.
Oh…and one more thing. I deeply regret I did not add “against overwhelming odds” to my previous post because you are indeed, the real life model for the Energizer Bunny because you just keep going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going to infinity and beyond!
Whoops, 😬
“To infinity and beyond!” (Buzz Lightyear, Toy Story)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yejqDshtyLA
FYI…I don’t really think the loss of THAT person will be detrimental to your plans, So…
The TIMES for those two PUBLIC / PUBLISHED Vanessa Purdy photos will probably change, as more is learned… but I believe those “fields of view” are totally accurate, and that won’t change.
Since these TWO photographs are simply the ones known to have been ‘released’ by Vanessa Purdy to public media outlets… they are simply ‘copies’ of the originals reformatted to fit on a web page. So they are NOT the ‘originals’ and there is no relevant EXIF metadata ( like TIMESTAMPS or DEVICE NAME ) in those PUBLIC copies of the photographs.
Since she ( Vanessa Purdy ) was perfectly fine with allowing these TWO photographs to be publicly published, ( along with her name and the location where they were taken ) she obviously isn’t all that concerned with being ‘anonymous’ or anything… so maybe more photographs ( original copies? ) will emerge.
That location where she was taking these photographs really is/was the absolute CLOSEST residence to the Boulder Springs Ranch, there at the far western edge of Glen Ilah… so ( obviously ) ANY photographs taken from that location are very important and deserve to part of the PUBLIC evidence record.
Should the proof of several back burns and burn outs prove to be the case then it should be no surprise. I was thinking of the Deputy B. who did say he was there and he knew there was communication yet the situation was total chaos. Seems no crew knew exactly what other crews were doing and you had people in charge even walking off the job. It appears groups were doing what they thought were procedures sensible for the occasion. And if I were to look at all the possible back burns and burn outs and their locations, I would say they make sense. I think even the crew bosses would agree that while winds were directed away from Glen Isla and away from the Helms Ranch, a back burn would be a given. Now I am not a wild land fire fighter so I am certain to hear something about my civilian way of thinking.
But this is not what brought me to the computer–What came to mind was Raul and Teresa as we knew them before the fire some years. Teresa and Raul were regulars to the Yarnell Library–Both were healthy and very vibrant people. Teresa had retired from some official joy fot the state–always healthy and always in a conversation with Joy. Raul was more reserved but healthy. But within a few months after the 2013 Yarnell Fire and the massive retardant dumps things began to go down hill. People Joy and I had the pleasure to dine with as guests in their home had soon deteriorated in their health so that Raul could barely get to the mail box and the Vibrant and always smiling and positive Teresa was in such bad health that she could not leave her home. She could no longer make her visits to the library. This saddens me greatly because these outstanding people with tremendous vitality for their ages you would never expect to be seen in this condition, yet this is only one example of the many cases Joy and I know of and personally are witnesses to.
The Yarnell deaths of the young wild land fire fighters together with the almost 200 deaths out of 650 Yarnell residents after the two massive retardant dumps of 2013 and 2015 is a horror story that defies imagination and possibilities. Even people I did not know were dying, and as we stopped at the post office there you would ask why are they selling things–the guy behind the post office had died of a heart attack. It was almost a daily death tally and Joy mentioned 9 had passed in a weeks time.
You see, Joy knew practically every soul on a personal basis that has passed. The horror story has to be something that bears on her. Yarnell to me came to be a doomsday town and the only thing that I could connect to the situation was the massive retardant dumps. There had been others that were complaining of the detrimental effects on the environment and health problems related to the retardant dumps–yet until I went and researched the matter I could not see how what I believed to be a harmless chemical solution could be instead a deadly pollutant with devastating effects not only upon the environment and aquatic life but upon the human organisms. Ammonium gas and the production of cyanide gases due to ammonium phosphates applied to extreme fires such as that was at Yarnell are health hazards in the extreme for elderly. But we have no idea what the secret ingredients are that accompanied the retardant drops. Of course cyanide gas was the killer constituent of Zyclon B, Hitlers extermination gas of the Jews and only 1/60th of a teaspoon is enough to kill a 140 pound person. So some spy people would carry a small capsule for suicide in case of capture.
Yes the deaths of the young firefighter heroes tears at the heart. But so to the horrible and needless deaths of the elderly due to these chemicals. And if you have a better explanation for all the sudden illness and deaths of the Yarnellites after the massive orange retardant dumps then let me know.
Joy is busy right now seeking more qualifications, but perhaps she will honor some of the many deaths that are part of the horror story at Yarnell.
I can only tell you that my own heart attacks–the second one that killed me was at Prescott some months after the fire. But it was in Helena, Montana that I had the first heart attack and that was only a few months after the fire. Since I have had several attacks and near death from them so that it has resulted in six heart stints. I went in just before my dog shot me in the back because I was in chest pain and could barely walk across the parking lot without being out of breath. About a month before at William Beaumont Army Hospital the doctors had run a catheter to my heart because of these sympotoms yet determined that I was OK despite the pains and lack of breath. But something had to be wrong, why I went back to the hospital, this time I limped into the hospital at Las Cruces. Again the Cardioligist made an emergency look at my heart with the catheter. Damn he did not use enough pain medication and I felt that one even at my heart–but I needed to know and would you not know my veins were clear but he said he could see the stents and they were good as well.
However a subsequent MRI found something on the left lung. The dog shot the other one out about a month later.
I say this because too many people at Yarnell have suffered the same and most have not made it back from the hospital. And those that suffered the most are of my age category–older folk beyond their 50’s–though Joy has been battling some symptoms at her younger years–I will live the age disclosure to her.
I do hope someone finally investigates what is going on with this retardant. I do know it is applied as though it is a harmless chemical, yet scores have passed at Yarnell after its application and I personally have seen people deteriorate in heath and happiness within a short time span after the proud pilots had been ordered to surround and inundate Yarnell with it–not once in 2013 but also again during the Tenderfoot Fire of 2015.
Joy remains the person to name those who were victims of the retardant dumps.
Oh…and one more thing. What El Jefe” AKA El Estupido and “Mrs. Pity-me-please” were doing ‘behind the scenes’ is even worse than at first glance… because that ‘Family Staff Ride’ was a COURT ORDERED event.
Jeff Whitney himself SIGNED that legal settlement agreement on June 29, 2015, on behalf of Arizona Forestry and the State of Arizona… thereby agreeing to act in ‘good faith’ and uphold ALL the terms of the settlement agreement.
He (El Estupido) is lucky the judge in the case didn’t find out about these back-channel shenanigans at the time.
He/She could have VOIDED the entire fucking settlement agreement upon learning about what was going on.
Jeff Whitney ( “El Jefe” ) was tapped to be the director of Arizona Forestry for one reason only… to placate the ‘families’ and make their ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits ‘go away’.
It’s still a shame that the families folded.
The ONE thing that Arizona Forestry could NOT let happen was to let ANY of those ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits make it to trial… because that’s when actual legal ‘discovery’ is allowed, and ‘under oath’ depositions get taken and ( eventually ) people have to testify “under oath”.
There was no way Arizona Forestry was going to allow that to happen.
But now we see that even after actually signing the settlement agreement… Whitney was conspiring with others to ‘shape’ things that were COURT ORDERED by the agreement itself.
What a piece of work this guy was/is.
WTKTT,
When I talked with Jeff Whitney on the morning of the April 2016 Family Staff Ride, Whitney indicated that I was unwelcome. He later told me that he quit a good job in order to accept the AZ Forestry Director position because he wanted to be a major part of the YH Fire “healing process” through the YH Fire Staff Ride development. I felt that he was very sincere in his declaration and intentions about why he came to the AZ Forestry.
At the Pioneer Cemetery after the Staff Ride, he told me that he was glad that I had come and participated
What followed afterwards in the text messages between him and AM that Joy provided is interesting and yet disturbing for me
And…
And it looks to me like you fell asleep in the middle of posting your thought? I would like to know the rest of it.
In addition, I just looked up El Estupido and it looks like he was canned as State Forester some time back. Does anybody know what happened?
Gary,
On the contrary, I think you’re the one that fell asleep.
Joy posted about all that back awhile ago.
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-475650 )
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476665 )
Gary,
On the contrary, I think you were the one that fell asleep because Joy posted on this awhile back.
On in December 2018 and one in January 2019.
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-475650 )
Yes, you are correct Sir…I missed all of that, my bad. Geez, and I thought I was ratting 🐀 out the current State Forester for misusing the power if his office, how embarrassing for me.
BUT…in my defense, this is a very complicated story line. And in fact..I maintain that if someone wrote it up and presented it in Hollywood, it would be rejected immediately for “jumping the shark” to many times and for its implausibility.
This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you’s. And, uh, lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder’s head. Luckily I’m adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug regimen to keep my mind, you know, limber.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HjJhbnz8YX0
Gary,
“Implausibility is not a reason to completely dismiss empirical findings, but impossibility is. It is up to authors to interpret the effect size in their study, and to show the mechanism through which an effect that is impossibly large, becomes plausible. Without such an explanation, the finding should simply be dismissed.”
So saith Daniel Lakens, an experimental psychologist at the Human-Technology Interaction group at Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands.
The 20% Statistician – A blog on statistics, methods, and open science. Understanding 20% of statistics will improve 80% of your inferences.
Monday, July 3, 2017 – “Impossibly hungry judges”
( http://daniellakens.blogspot.com/ )
The sheer number of photos revealing separate and distinct smoke columns (plumes) in the areas of the Sesame Street and Shrine Fuel / Fire Break Corridor meet the plausibility standard noted by author Daniel Lakens.
Correction: The above should read as follows:
The sheer number of photos revealing separate and distinct smoke columns (plumes) in the areas of the Sesame Street and Shrine Fuel / Fire Break Corridor strongly indicating a firing operation and therefore meet the plausibility standard noted by author Daniel Lakens.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 27, 2019 at 1:11 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> When I talked with Jeff Whitney on the morning of the
>> April 2016 Family Staff Ride, Whitney indicated that
>> I was unwelcome.
>>
>> ( Fast forward a few hours )
>>
>> At the Pioneer Cemetery after the Staff Ride, he told me that
>> he was glad that I had come and participated
So what do you think ( or know? ) happened just in the course of
those few hours for “El Jefe” to “change his tune” 180 degrees?
That’s some “turnaround” just in the course of 1 afternoon.
WTKTT,
I guess because we go “way back” as Hot Shots. We were on the Dude Fire together on June 26, 1990.
And I believe that he realized we were basically on the same side as far as the entire YH Fire and GMHS debacle.
Not so much on the report though, because I had to go before him and his AZ State Forestry Board in 2016 to get approval to do a wildland fire refresher about the human factors influencing the YH Fire and GMHS fatalities on June 30, 2013.
However, it seemed to me that he was obviously sucking up to AM on the whole Staff Ride thing with the text messages
Yes…and I think “sucking up” is the biggest understatement on this thread to date.
RTS on those spot fires you recently posted did you have a time frame for the photos? I oriented myself and actually hiked right through the area with one of the loved ones so I know exactly where that spot fire was located. That might clarify some things in my thinking.
tried to post a few times….try again
to put it another way…
That is how Gary the past 24 hours placed it on IM
His spin not mine.
I gave him and RTS the text thread between Jeff Whitney and a loved one and when I said
“Gary and RTS- I am going to email you what Jeff Whitney wrote about you with a loved one- you deserve to know that….what you both do with it i[s] up to you but I am tired of holding on to certain areas.”
My area was to show them the distastes behind the scenes that have gone on for years
-not at all what he wrote or alleged or implied.is how I feel
yet it was part of that text thread.which he quoted so he is sharing a perception I never even grasped nor thought it could be assumed such way.
I was alerted about it and I am heading for more training so I cannot look to this area to “babysit” what another took and perceived so if that is how Gary felt – I can publicly state I did not express that public or private and I do not feel such way
but indeed I do have a lot of receipts and records and indeed it was right to let RTS and Gary see how their old pal Jeff interacts behind close doors.
Thank God for super technology capabilities. or Gary and RTS would never know what was being said behind their backs that is rather important.
Didn’t you catch that data Gary?
A person trying to ensure you were not allowed to be somewhere?
I found it distasteful and unprofessional- you did not Gary?
You went another direction with the content.
Then you wonder why IM gets the descriptions it does….
Gary, I am not perfect-
How could I have sent that to you where you would have focused to the content on you not being allowed to be somewhere-
???
I mean it was harsh what you said about a few areas…and then mixing me in…I get it…
I annoy you, say dumb things so why not…
but listen if the light bulb burns out in your laundry room- what do you do Gary? Buy a new light bulb…skate thru in the daylight in that area?…buy a new home that comes with a new bulb?
Just curious…I know you were having fun with the data but you should have walked away with someone trying to limit where you were allowed and the question is WHY??? I have no clue how you got where you got-
I know you are not here to build names on a Christmas list roster- I get that.
I just wanted to get the whole lingo
Do you know what love even is?
You spoke about it last night,
Love has so many languages- I know…right
But when you truly love someone you may be out hiking or on the pc or riding in your jeep but you ensure to communicate in some way to let that person know hey you are on my mind …
Love is…
I find it’s good company…a person to vibe with…laugh with…not in any rush to label how you are to another…oh and feelings have a lot to do with love…
We all perceive differently. I came on just to state I do not perceive what I shared to you and RTS the same way.
Somebody told me we were to meet up and share scripture today- that person dissed me and I am finding myself re-evaluating my days to come…I do not like when someone says stuff than texts they are out having a beautiful day and just blew me off. I only came here to state I do not support your take on what I gave you.
That’s all.
I am not just saying that…I mean it.
I thought you would have been shocked by Jeff not being professional and stand up for you.
You did not deserve that.
Joy,
The email speaks for itself. Everyone hears what they want to hear, but I hear what it says…exactly what it says. One of your greatest strengths is your naivety and sweetness. One of your greatest weaknesses is your naivety and your sweetness.
People like you who are the sheep 🐑, can exist in this world 🌎 in relative security among the wolves 🐺 like Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh, because of people like me…who are the sheepdogs 🐕.
Sometimes what we do to defend you is ugly and you shouldn’t watch. But…In your darkest hour when your demons come call on me, sister and we will fight them together.
Political corruption is the use of powers by government officials or their network contacts for illegitimate private gain. … Forms of corruption vary, but include bribery, extortion, cronyism, nepotism, parochialism, patronage, influence peddling, graft, and embezzlement.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_corruption
Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management State Forester Jeff Whitney is guilty of public corruption because he used his official office and the powers of that office for corrupt purposes.
Send me the all of the emails and I will put everything on my website in context so that everyone can see how Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh conspired to use the power of his office to deprive both RTS and myself of a benefit we were entitled to receive because I had been invited to attend that staff ride as the guest of the mother of one of the dead hotshots. Every family was allowed to invite one guest to accompany them and she invited me.
But in the end…I asked RTS to attend in my place because I felt he knew the players, the lay of the land, and the current issues far better than I did.. Criminals don’t have to be successful when they conspire to break the law, because being successful at committing a crime isn’t an element of the conspiracy statute. So…
El Jefe is lucky the statute of limitations has either run out or will soon run out on his crime of conspiracy, or I would give him something to worry about that is much bigger than just being publicly shamed for using the power of his official office to tap our dead hotshot brother’s wife in her hour of need.
And that need was to be vindictive and punish those whom she perceived were her enemies because they were telling the truth about how her former husband was responsible for killing his hotshot crew through his criminally negligent decisions and actions.
That and the fact no state law enforcement agency in Arizona would acceptor investigate my valid complaint. 🙁
“…accept or investigate…
Oh…and one more thing. I don’t even have to file a complaint for El Jefe’s criminal acts to be investigated. I have now done my duty, I have alerted the State of Arizona to the fact that public corruption occurred. The crime wasn’t against me…El Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh)s crimes were against the people of Arizona. All of the evidence they would need to prosecute those crimes is contained in those email strings.
I wrote thousands of official emails during my career and I never wrote any like the ones El Estúpido wrote. What a stupid fuck!
Hey RTS…I’m not being to “squishy” for you now am I?
Joy,
What those people did was offensive and distasteful to you because you are a good person.
But because you are a good person and naive, you didn’t realize that what they did was actually commit and least three felonies.
And those are public corruption, conspiracy and wire fraud because they used the internet to commit their criminal acts.
And let’s not forget that…
…that ain’t legal either.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oovqYtMy1BI
I mean…the Great State Of Arizona didn’t even investigate the deaths of 19 people who were killed as the result of criminally negligent acts, much less conspiracy to use the power of a public office in an attempt to deprive both RTS and I of a benefit (thing of value) we were entitled to receive. Am I right?
Gary,
A bit too crass and disrespectful of the dead for me even though we agree – and allege – that Marsh’s actions and decisions were causal factors to the deaths of their men on June 30, 2013.
And for those that require a bit of education for because you know little or nothing of what Gary is referring to above, read the article in the link below.
“Book Excerpt: On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs” (Police One – June 3, 2008)
“If you want to be a sheepdog, you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door”
( https://www.policeone.com/police-products/training-products/articles/1709289-Book-Excerpt-On-Sheep-Wolves-and-Sheepdogs/ )
I know RTS…we established that you are a better person than me a long time ago.
But then again…you didn’t do the things I did in your name for 18 years so you aren’t in a position to judge me are you?
And a lot of people are sheepdogs who never served in the military or law enforcement. You are a sheepdog.
RTS,
I just read the article at the link you provided and when I got to the end and read the name of the author, Dave Grossman.
And then I remembered that is where I first heard the theory of sheep, wolves and sheepdogs. I attended a law enforcement conference (in Prescott at the old Sheraton) where Lt. Colonel Grossman lectured us. He is a very captivating speaker.
But my old friend…you are one of the strongest and most capable sheepdogs I have ever served beside. So you know…keep up the good work. 👍🏻
My comment is awaiting moderation take Ii.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the impact the criminal acts of Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh would have had on the other person who was involved in that scenario.Mrs. Marcia McKee whose son Grant McKee was killed with the other Granite Mountain Hotshots.
El Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh did everything they could in an attempt to defraud Mrs. McKee of the one emotional support person she chose to accompany her on the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride.
So…I don’t really want to hear about how mean I am for doing the little I can to extract some accountability from two really bad people. I have my own sheep to do what I can to protect.
And as a matter of fact, I believe I am speaking and acting for many of the crew who were killed by an egomaniac and now their legacy of making a positive contribution to wild land firefighter safety is being destroyed by the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh’s posse of enablers.
So yes…my tactics are distasteful at times, but this is asymmetrical and non conventional warfare. I use the weapons that are available to me. But people know who I am and what my position is…right?
Although Fred and Joy are the ones who keep walking into the lair of the wolves and facing them down.
Gary Says: Although Fred and Joy are the ones who keep walking into the lair of the wolves and facing them down.
My Reply- thank you for the explanations-
I just never saw it the way you placed it out.using unusual words like “tap” or “cold”….those areas seem harsh-
Yes, I did think about the McKee family when I sent it to you and RTS and that was my concern. that they were not shown the proper respect. I did not even say that out loud but I was thinking it as I shared-
Sorry Gar-
Fred. and I (as well as many others here on this thread like THE Woodsman and HAL 9000) are playing three dimensional chess ♟, the Cabal is playing checkers and Joy is either playing Tiddlywinks or Battleship? Who the fuck knows?
You don’t have to be sorry about anything Joy, this world needs a lot more people like you…and a few like me. 🙂
You are indeed a National Treasure just like Sonny is!
And you know I was just joking with you about the Tiidlywinks.
But all joking aside, the former Mrs. Eric Marsh replaced him pretty fast in her life.
Mrs, Marcia McKee can’t replace Grant. Amanda lost her husband…Marcia lost her son, who I believe was her only child.
But Mrs. McKee never drank the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra Kool Aid and everyone there treated her horribly and completely disrespectfully.
You send me the rest of that material you have from El Jefe, and I will do everything I can to settle the score, at least a little bit for what Mrs. McKee was put through by a lot of really bad people that included yelling at her to try and force her to sign documents. They also used uniformed police officers in that setting to intimidate her.
And in the process they withheld logistical financial assistance and compensation from her to punish her that they paid to everyone who did drink their KOOL Aid.
What a fucked up place that nest of vipers is. And Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman is the queen pit viper.
But…she is really good at manipulating people to get her way and she runs her very own Pity Industry to promote the memory of the man who killed his crew through criminally reckless negligence.
And of course she loves to be the center of attention. And she has done a great job, she has the rest of those bitches (non gender specific) following her every whim as their command. It is sick…sick…sick!
Oh…and one more thing. RTS did a great job being a friend and support person for Marcia McKee and he helped her negotiate what was a very difficult thing for her to do.
Especially while being surrounded by either strangers or unfriendly people who were drinking the Kool Aid.
So…shame, shame, shame on both El Estupido and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh for conspiring to use his public office of authority and trust to defraud Mrs. McKee the same right everyone else had to have the emotional support person of her choice help her make it through a heartbreaking ordeal.
Gary,
Thanks for the kudos about the YH Fire / GMHS Family Staff Ride.
It was rough indeed and felt that it was WAY too early for that kind of event.
The deck was clearly stacked against me as well with most of the cadre and several of the GMHS family, friends, and loved ones making it clear that I was unwelcome there
In spite of all that, I felt it was a worthwhile experience because I was able to clarify some key details at several of the Decision Points during the day
Gary,
Thank you for the kudos about the YH Fire / GMHS Family Staff Ride.
It was rough indeed and felt that it was WAY too early for that kind of event.
The deck was clearly stacked against me as well with most of the cadre and several of the GMHS family, friends, and loved ones making it clear that I was unwelcome there
In spite of this, I felt it was a worthwhile experience because I was able to clarify some key details at several of the Decision Points during the day
Thanks Joy for that link to the Irish wild land fire going on in Northwest Ireland. You see that hundreds of Irish citizens went out to fight the fire–that is they were not hindered by a legal system –no one got hurt but that fire covered a large area. I could not help but think if Yarnell had been an Irish town how soon that fire would have been out. You know that the Irish would have got up onto that fire like gang busters and had it out whether the local Fire Fighting educated fire fighters would do it or not. There would have been no hesitancy on the part of the Irish to defend their property and well being–no such thing as letting something get out of hand just because the dummies at Yarnell could not agree whether it ought to be taken care of or not. That should have been a given–and just as in Ireland where the people are just as involved in taking care of a fire as their firefighter crews. Maybe I saw that attitude in my dear old Dad–he did not jump in his truck and drive to town to hunt up a fire fighter to ask if they would take care of lightening strikes that were ready to expand into a full fledged wild fire. As soon as he saw smoke, he yelled at me to grab a shovel and pick and we were on our way up the mountain to take care of those lightening strikes, and we did.
So now we know the rest of the story is going to come out–the facts that those videos did not lie–and I am ever reminded of Gary’s statement–that’s what we do we burn. And that makes the sense except who would have known that Marsh would go against all good reason and order his crew down into the trap despite all good reason. He had to have known those burns were going on and so did every other boss with the radios blaring. So Donut was seeing sparks across the road and those winds were whipping the trees and driving those embers up the mountain with the advance in expressway speed.
I should think that if indeed the back burns did kill those GMHS, the guys doing the burning had no idea that Marsh would be attempting to outrun the fire with his crew. That the truth was and is being hidden from public view is the greatest tragedy. One thing it robbed the loved ones of their right to know and it also caused them to accept meager sums for the wrongful death of their loved ones. The state was not only pinching pennies it was attempting to keep the truth hidden so the FS would come out in the best of public view. It took some nerve to give out awards for that Yarnell performance by the men in charge.
And Mrs .Marsh, though had no fault in the actions of her ex, she did keep up the front–but I do think she must have been privy to the real truth. That will bear hard upon her to have to admit to living the lie–but who is to say–people sometimes become so deluded they believe their own BS–and especially those that want to live the life as a victim. Well she got her 15 minutes of fame–too bad it was not living in the truth of that disaster–same goes for Donut? Who among all these has not gained from their delusions?
It sounds like Joy is ready to unleash — the cat is screaming to get out of the bag and that is the way it should be. It would be that even I had some guilt at the death of those men–I thought damn, we were right there where they went down–could I have said stay the hell out of that death trap? I do realize that would have been a joke–a citizen trying to tell those educated and trained wild land fire fighters what to do. A laugh to be sure. Yet that cowboy McKensie, who had lived the area for fifty years did just that. He told them that morning now you boys don’t get trapped down there in that manzanita when that fire takes off. He did not need the education and training to know better than getting trapped–it was a useless and stupid action with a fire that an army could not have halted.
Yet those those that knew Marsh was a risktaker must carry some burden of conscience unless they had made a report of his devious behaviour. I say devious because to risk your crew’s lives needlessly and carelessly with only regard to aggrandizement is a devious situation. But I am not one to say except it was obvious he was in the wrong occupation.
Joy is a fighter–she won’t be bullied–for that I am certain. Her Irish genes give her stamina and the will to survive against all odds. I certainly have a smile on my face to those that are dumb enough to take her on. They will end in defeat–truth always wins and old Karma comes after those that follow the crooked path.
To add a bit to the story early on one of the fire bosses posted that Sonny and Joy ought to be sent to the penitentiary for being up there on the fire edge. I wonder how many Irish in Ireland would laugh at him because he would have to send half of Ireland to the Penitentiary for being on the fire lines. The Irish must see things a bit differently since hundreds went out to fight the fire in Northern Ireland. I suspect that very fire boss is one of those that believes a citizen has no right or purpose to stop wild land fires. But I am of the opinion that in a free America if it stands to reason and a person wants to risk his ass in helping to stop a fire–as long as it is his own–go to it. I know Joanna of Prescott News had a thing against one of the reporters because he would hike in and take video of the men working–Hell yes I say–what are the FS and Hot Shot Bosses afraid the public might see? The right of the press was infringed at Yarnell–it was said that some of the Yarnellites did not want their homes burnt down exposed to the public eye. What rubbish to keep out the press–and the FS and State Officials are more than willing to neglect the rights of press to keep themselves from being exposed.
Consider that Joanna’s husband was or is a fire fighter–how they influence the press. How about a little unbiased press be allowed to operate. But then I could understand why the Prescott news was eager to promote the GMHS–their homeboys that could do no wrong.
Charlie,
You make many good points on the blatant (mis)management of the YH Fire in general and the GMHS specifically.
I agree with you that “… now we know the rest of the story is going to come out.” Yes we do know that.
However, the SAIT-SAIR noted in several pages quite the contrary. This statement from one of the many SAIT Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) in August 2013 is interesting and verifies .
“ We have so much evidence that we cannot and will not ever release” about the YH Fire and the GMHS stated a highly experienced YH Fire Investigation SME (August 2013)
These are the many SAIT-SAIR excerpts on the SAIT arrogantly confident shielding the truth from the FFs, WFs, and the American public.
“Because we do not know, and will never know , many of the precise details surrounding the final movements and motivations of the Granite Mountain IHC …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 45) (emphasis added)
“Although we will never know for sure, we considered how the Granite Mountain IHC might have reasoned …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 47) (emphasis added)
“Although we will never know the answer to this question, it is worth asking: …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 48) (emphasis added)
“We will never know for sure, but we wondered whether the Granite Mountain IHC’s decision to hike through the green might have seemed to them to be a decision to operate in the green just like everyone else.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 52)
(emphasis added)
“We will never know if the crew understood that this route of travel required that they sacrifice some of their capacity to serve as their own lookouts.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54) (emphasis added)
“We will also never know if they understood the calculated risk involved in traversing the final distance to the Ranch without the level of situational awareness that a different vantage point might have afforded.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54) (emphasis added)
The truth is coming out little by little, so stand by because we WILL know the “who, what, when, where, and why”
It is very heart warming to know that RTS, Joy, Gary, Woodsman, Norb, WTKTT, John D.,just to name a few of the heavy hitters have begun to unravel the SAIT-SAIR lies and cover up. Omission and half truths have been their “NEVER KNOW” and “INFORMATION WE WILL NEVER RELEASE” and is equivalent to conspiracy and I would imagine the Rico Act. Gary would know the legal possibilities they should face. The truth is obviously held back to defraud the loved ones and to placate certain individuals determined to make their failure at Yarnell look like a heroic and outstanding effort by the FS and its Firefighting regime.
It is indeed sad when you have men in an occupation bound to investigate and tell the truth that the Loved Ones, the Public, and all Firefighters and Citizens should know. But it is wonderful to see that the best of the best among wild land fire fighters and concerned citizens have exposed the ugly coverup. I do not know what more the FBI, Congressmen, and people of high standard need to go after these buggers.
Thanks RTS for those photos you recently posted–that is in the area right below the Helms there and at 4:24–was that about a half hour before the men were killed? Good Lord, if so then it stands to reason from my view that the spot fires were either from the Shrine burn or they were actual burn outs in progress right there. I can see why the FS does not want the Media watching–their fuck ups are royal and deadly. Should they be exposed then they would have to make some extreme changes including demoting, expelling and even criminally charging a number of the culprits.
Of all the investigators- there were two that did seem above board –those two we hiked and later recommended the highest fine to those responsible for this great boondoggle that resulted in the deaths of the GMHS crew. You can bet the system moved them out of the investigative business. Bruce should have sued them for getting hurt on the job. Bret was I understand moved to a desk job–he was an excellent hiker and they both deserved promotions.
RTS thanks for the video post on the Taliban incident killing the 7 young soldiers. There is so much similarity –good Lord–abandon the high ground to situate in a trap just as the GMHS crew abandoned the high and in the black to take up a death trap. Who could not know that the camp situation was where they could easily be surrounded by the Taliban on the high ground and in a situation outpost that was as needless and useless as the men of the GMHS would be at attempting to protect houses with an Atomic Bomb energy burning situation they were in complete observance of all morning long. It defies logic and good sense –the doe doe that takes a knife into a gun battle.
To many leaders are thoughtless when it comes to how to keep their men alive. Certain in all cases of Battle the men controlling the high ground have the advantage in a battle zone. Yes we planted the flag at Iwo Jima but look at the cost in lives to get that high ground. Stay in the black when the odds are against you and your men are apt to die. Houses are a poor excuse for killing men–those Pulaski’s do well making line but once the Fire Devil and Big Dog Eat–time to move to Safety.
Sonny,
You make many good points on the blatant (mis)management of the YH Fire in general and the GMHS specifically.
I agree with you that “… now we know the rest of the story is going to come out.” Yes we do know that.
However, the SAIT-SAIR noted in several pages quite the contrary. This statement from one of the many SAIT Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) in August 2013 is interesting and verifies .
“ We have so much evidence that we cannot and will not ever release” about the YH Fire and the GMHS stated a highly experienced YH Fire Investigation SME (August 2013)
These are the many SAIT-SAIR excerpts on the SAIT arrogantly confident shielding the truth from the FFs, WFs, and the American public.
“Because we do not know, and will never know , many of the precise details surrounding the final movements and motivations of the Granite Mountain IHC …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 45) (emphasis added)
“Although we will never know for sure, we considered how the Granite Mountain IHC might have reasoned …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 47) (emphasis added)
“Although we will never know the answer to this question, it is worth asking: …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 48) (emphasis added)
“We will never know for sure, but we wondered whether the Granite Mountain IHC’s decision to hike through the green might have seemed to them to be a decision to operate in the green just like everyone else.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 52)
(emphasis added)
“We will never know if the crew understood that this route of travel required that they sacrifice some of their capacity to serve as their own lookouts.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54) (emphasis added)
“We will also never know if they understood the calculated risk involved in traversing the final distance to the Ranch without the level of situational awareness that a different vantage point might have afforded.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54) (emphasis added)
The truth is coming out little by little, so stand by because we WILL know the “who, what, when, where, and why”
Joy has some new information and is fact checking now for veracity. Good to be like WTKTT and Joy–strict attention to details and fact. I deal in lots of suppositions–maybe it is part of enjoying the twilight zone–I do think the Psychics have something going and we do have an intuition that keeps some of us on our toes and alive–at least as long as this life will allow. Sadly when some of us begin to mature it is just when the grim reaper comes knocking at our door. The Leprichaun, Karma, and the Reaper are all in Cahoots while the Irish Gods and Jesus, et. al. stand by and watch the show to see how things play out.
But the intuition that day was in me and my urgency was a life saver. So many things we did not know that were going on, yet it has to be a certainty that Marsh and Company had to have the input data. There is a value in instinct and intuition–it has saved me in many instances and listening to your gut feelings can be a valuable trait. There were several times when working as an underground miner I had instinctively jumped back just enough to keep myself from being transferred into a non-edible pancake. You can kill me but you can’t eat me. So I believe it was with Steed that day. He did not want to take his men down yet he let his gut instinct be overridden by a forceful Marsh, again et. al. I do surmise. The fire gods and goddesses are not to be questioned.
Well if Joy does much good, she also sometimes leaves me in suspense–I must continue the novel, though it is written in blood of young wild land fire fighters, to see how it plays out. I have been a side-liner on the bench but then that is where I belong–willing to enter the fray yet not capable or with the abilities of the main players here on Investigative Media. But I can cheer them on since I am of heavy heart for the deaths of those young heroes and I do know the concerns of the men who are the mentors of the young ones doing their job in the danger zone. They indeed are veterans at war as much as the warrior facing Isis in a fire fight.
There will be closure and no matter how well the truth is hidden for so many years, there are youngsters coming of age. Most will not tolerate the lies and BS that has abounded to cover up the true reasons for the deaths of their parent. There are a few parents that are not fooled as well. If there is one thing investigators enjoy, it is that they have a part in the revelation of truth and the closure it brings to the loved ones. No matter how much loved ones might say they just want to move on and let the FS and Fire fighting profession be seen through rose colored glasses, the truth is–in the recesses of their minds they want to know the real reasons for their loved ones tragic ending.
Gary burned a thought in my mind–that is what we wild land fire fighters do–we burn. Yes burn baby burn, so I was thinking of how many crews that were involved in the Yarnell Incident–I am certain you would need more than ten fingers to count them. Maybe Joy has a count–and how many were involved in back burns that day? I would be thinking as Trueheart had been noted by WTKTT–Trueheart’s obvious worry they would get themselves caught in a deadly burning situation–right in the questioned Shrine burn out area. I have no question that is what he meant, I saw the video of the drip torching in that area and if they were doing it near the Shrine in plain sight, then Gary’s statement–that’s what we do stands true.
Those that failed to keep the wrongdoing hidden are coming to exposure. But then it is only a matter to man up and change the way things have evolved into such habits of pasting glitter over these deadly incidents rather than exposing each one in truth so that the system improves–and now if you think the system is working well enough then you are the dummy–not the “hillbilly” Cowboy that said do not get trapped in that Manzanita with that fire nearby.
Donut’s referral to the rules as “hillbilly” was a misnomer. A “hillbilly” Mr. Donut , with a hole in your head, had better sense than to disregard the rules, –he advised to follow the rules and stay in the safe zone where there was no sensible and safe alternative. But then you can educate men–for example Marsh and Steed with the finest of teachers–RTS or Gary–and the training and education goes in one ear and out the other of such folk–they have their own ideas and stubbornly adhere to them without regard to proven wisdom–until they kill their crews and even themselves as shown in the Yarnell incident.
FYI…I am dumbfounded and speechless about what I learned last night and dumbfounded. So…I have to go back on sabbatical and write some more on my book because you know…the fuckin’ thing isn’t going to write itself. And think about things because I’m dumbfounded and speechless and dumbfounded.
You know…that all indicators right now point to the fact that a friendly backfire may have killed our crew.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QGEdc6HxhVA&list=RDQGEdc6HxhVA&start_radio=1
Or perhaps you’re in the mood for something a little more upbeat? “Sadness like water raining down…raining down”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1b9-pjEgEZc&list=RDQGEdc6HxhVA&index=18
Negative. Both too squishy for me
Among other things, mostly my faith and trust in Jesus Christ, these are some of the videos and testimony that inspire me to carry on to reveal the truth about the YH Fire and the GMHS
“Medal of Honor recipient, and the battle that stays forever”
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GDANpZrulk )
“Michael Thornton, Medal of Honor, Vietnam War”
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc1KrzKavns )
the kindness and generosity I have seen from the fire industry- the intelligence – the integrity – I hope it shows as the rest pours out…
I know when I am called home…I know I had the chance to be taught and to laugh—
thank you for that. ...
I have no fear going forward…
My advice to this generation:
Tell the truth…. to yourself first …then to the world
Kayiden, good luck on your meeting – SHINE
that is a lot of people to speak in front of no matter who you are or no matter the topic…
Engage lovingly, thoughtfully and faithfully …
stay away from backward telescopes…
Do not get flummoxed as my pops would say when on that stage.
for anyone who was figuring why I stayed in this thus far…
accountability before God and about how God may work that accountability through human beings…
when I saw peoples’ motions quickly and antiseptically towards me on the aftermath of the YHFire…and also when I hiked them – as some murmured their thank-yous and scuttled the hell away..I knew people came to this aftermath with much judgments…These people did not want to know more about me. They wanted to talk at me and about me and pray at me. Prayer should be a loving act, not a weapon of discounting one another….
There is too much ugliness because of the venom spewed from others which are false.
Gary and RTS- I am going to email you what Jeff Whitney wrote about you with a loved one- you deserve to know that….what you both do with it i up to you but I am tired of holding on to certain areas.
Thank you so much.
Although since Jeff and I are both not only alumnus hotshots from the Mighty Coconino, we are both former Coconino Hotshot Crew Bosses. so…I’m sure it will all be good?
Oh fuck me! Does everyone remember how bitterly I complained years ago because people are always spelling my last name OlsEn?
Do I look Norwegian to you? Well do I? Of course not…because I am obviously SWEDISH!
Far too many people think all of us PEOPLE, you know….Scandinavian Nordic types look alike. What’s up with that?
And you really need to work on your photo resolution Joy. I mean, I really appreciated your efforts but…
It looks like they spelled Fred’s last wrong too. But you know…that’s certainly understandable. Am I right?
I mean, C’mon…Schoeffler? That’s perfectly understandable.
Now I have to figure out how to post this info on my website.
Although based on a quick read…it looks like (Namaste) Jefe was trying to tap that…know what I mean?
I mean…Hotshot Crew Boss Brother Eric Marsh was barely cold in the ground. What’s up with that?
In fact…I strongly suspect Namaste Jefe DID tap that, know what I mean?
OMGosh…Joy said, “remember I pulled everything…I even have Whitney’s dining and hotel and etc receipts and so when I pulled everything even texts and emails you get to learn the BEHIND THE SCENES…sad that Amanda placed false stuff out on you and RTS”
Joy…as I have written many times…you are indeed a national treasure! And just like the Energizer Bunny, you just keep going and going and going…
God Bless America! 🇺🇸
It’s a great day to be me!
I mean…is this a great country or what? The Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management – Office of the State Forester Jeff Whitney…civil service at its finest!
Okay…this was a royal pain in the ass because I transfer words slow and type even slower, but since all of you are indeed among my closest friends and confidants…I did this one special for you so you didn’t have to wait for me to get everything on my website.
“Thank you for sharing Amanda, so noted. Pls do not feel embarrassed nor apologetic for your feelings particularly in view of your sense of place where you and Eric celebrated and where curiously we found ourselves last night. You know I support you and value your friendship. Namaste, Jefe”
OMGosh…I think I found the real life model for Wild Heat (Hot Shots: Men of Fire Book 1) Kindle Edition
by Bella Andre (Author)
4.4 out of 5 stars
Logan Cain is Jefe Whitney in real life!
“Wild Heat” $20.17 (from Amazon, also available on Audiobooks and Kindle)
The love that Jefe Whitney and Mrs. Eric Marsh shared…priceless.
HE’S A HOTSHOT FIREFIGHTER ADDICTED TO RISK. SHE’S THE SULTRY BEAUTY HE NEVER SAW COMING.
Maya Jackson doesn’t sleep with strangers. Until the night grief sent her to the nearest bar and into the arms of the most explosive lover she’s ever had. Six months later, the dedicated arson investigator is coming face to face with him again. Gorgeous, grinning Logan Cain. Her biggest mistake. Now her number-one suspect in a string of deadly wildfires.
Risking his life on a daily basis is what gets Logan up in the morning. As leader of the elite Tahoe Pines Hotshot Crew, he won’t back down from a blaze-or from beautiful, lethal Maya Jackson. She may have seduced him with her tears and her passion, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before Logan lets down his guard again. Until Maya’s life is threatened. With his natural-born hero instincts kicking in, Logan vows to protect the woman sworn to bring him down. And as desire reignites, nothing-not the killer fire or the killer hot on their trail-can douse the flames….
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6060450-wild-heat
What a World Class Dildo…Whitney co-opted the title of;
El Jefe (f. La Jefa) is a Spanish term meaning “the chief” or “the boss” and may refer to: “El Jefe”, a less-common nickname for former Cuban President Fidel Castro (deriving from his title as Comandante en Jefe or “Commander-in-Chief” of the Cuban Armed Forces)
El Jefe – Wikipedia
To use as his nickname and to play off his name…Jeff, because you know, he’s “the Chief” or “the Boss”, or maybe both at the same time…get it? How fuckin’ clever he is, what a smart little man!
What a Dick Wad Guy: Hey did you see that dude over there? Me: Yeah. He’s a dick wad · #jerk#asshole#mean# douche#no.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dick%20wad
Oh…and one more thing Joy, you know I was just teasing you, it all looks great! Thank you a million times over!
Memo 📝 to the Chief, El Jefe:
You know Jefe…sometimes if you fuck with the bull…you get the horn.!
In other words;
A veces, si follas con el toro el jefe, obtienes la bocina.
Or better yet El Jefe;
A veces si follas con el toro, obtienes el cuerno! Estúpido (Asshole)
you are welcome.
Neither one of you deserved to be spoken about like that. Shame on them.
Hallelujah! Can I get an amen?
SOME of their thread? C’mon…the reading was just getting good. Please…please….please, pretty please…with sugar on it!
welcome to my world Gary.
As I began to peel the layers of this I was confused especially certain entities connections
why?
I then knew if it was all revealed on IM- it could vanish so I made sure if I am alive or the others involved that if something was to happen to me or them- it will be from external others or my health is and has not always been the best…I mean who last resorts to drinking actual Timber Rattlesnake and Bushmaster venom three times a day as I have this year. But either way it is coming out even if they harm me or others around me. I already set the dominoes to do just that.
I have asked many on so many levels to help those who will be affected and forgive them.
This was always done to gain facts and truths and I always got WTKTT on what is laid publicly out there but there is so much behind the scenes I have said over time that it sickens me they can sleep at night.
The information that comes out will be actions firefighters normally do that was done June 30 2013 –
when a guy asks the right questions and gets a strange answer let that be watchout number 30…
it is up to 30 now if you have been out of the loop…PJ Lingley (Bear Jaw Hotshot Asst Sup/My S130 S190 instructor) had a few add-ons to the 18 and since more have added to it…when Community Risk Reduction Division Chief Don Devendorf stated to me May 5, 2016 13:00pm “it means as an industry we made note of another five ways to injure or kill wildland firefighters.”
I agree with Don Devendorf… I am bold enough to walk the walk and get the changes to happen versus keep adding numbers to a list. Unless the number is to my Christmas List which for 2019 Gary is on my list. (weird wink….question mark)
I am sorry Pfingston has to see her name on IM like such…it would seem it is enough to lose a son than to have email content placed to the world. I have a lot in my records on the loved ones and I currently am having it fed to the legal system how some of the areas can be presented to the world so people of the social media misrepresenting can be shown to the world what has gone on behind the scenes…So even though this was placed out without me knowing there is much more information to still come out involving the behind the scenes of certain select people tied to the GMHS.
I pray that person(s) cease the behaviors public and private because the rest is coming out even if someone on the SAIT recently stated to me outside the conference less than a minute event happened and if he is telling YOU something different this is exactly what happened- Hey “SAIT GUY”, why did you spew at “him” like that.” and he replies six seconds later “I am not having this conversation.” and I stated “you do know I am coming out with the rest of the story, right” and a few seconds later quickly he stated twice “I am not having this conversation.” within ten seconds he says in fast tone motion “I am asking you to leave me alone”…”leave me alone” as I am overlapping his words saying “okay I get that- but don’t spew in a public fashion (he repeats over my voice calmly “leave me alone”…and he said quickly stated “did you hear me say that?”…”leave me alone” “do I need to get a restraining order against you?” as I overlapped and said “you have no right.” as he looked at a FF (leave his name out) and said “did you hear me ask her how many times.” I replied “No, you did not have to say it redundantly in two seconds- come on “SAIT guy” …”wait until it all comes out and you look like a fool…” as I walked away I mention some DC content so he is in the loop….I did nothing to this man and this freaking topic of Restraining Orders in the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill Fire has been used and abused my way inappropriately and it ends. I will not be bullied by these silly tactics and people being ok to place that on my record- that’s on them but hey it is wrong. What judge would take that above content which was reality…and tap me with a restraining order? This fella one year ago gleefully wanted to hike with me at same conference. It was the next conference after that where it shifted Hmmm….wonder if a certain person helped that shift? The topic he spewed off about – one presenter said what data would one like to see in reports and I will let RTS give his 1st hand reply/experience and then I was told at the bay shore that this man in back of room said Bullshit Fred when Fred said THE TRUTH is what’s lacking in reports…I prefer to leave the SAIT guy’s name out but Fred is his own person and I will not guide him but I keep it out for my sharing experience. I do not need the bullshit but that is what happened since the fella seems to think that less than 1 minute public talk deserves me to get a restraining order…so sad.
Again…all the bullying is over. Everything is set to happen… You want to tell your story than the time is now because once I do officially I have said on IM for a long time you had your chances and I never hood winked one person…they are all in the loop. I gave you all the chance and I did that because it really belongs to YOU to tell it purely and tell it purely because I documented this well and placed all data in right spot that if at any time they went rummaging on me…the data is not on me. A trick my pops taught me when he worked for Sheriff Joe A.-
Trying to orient myself –where exactly are those spot fires RTS posted? Would they be toward the Shrine area. I had to chuckle about Joy and her straightforward manner–tough girl to deal with when someone wants to hide what she knows. What in the world would make you think those fellows that lied will own up to it? They are guilty of omission and commission but with their feathers in their hats and many awards for good deeds, how would you think they could man up to the truth when they have so adamantly adhered to the lies–for example Marsh is a hero? Well perhaps to a dud wild land fire fighter who believes that the proper thing is to call the rules of safety “hillbilly” and the real heroes do as they damn please without regard to the safety of their “Greek God” total confidence man to lead them down into hell. Jim Jones had people brain washed enough to take poison and die with him so they could met Jesus in Heaven–if they did I wonder what Jesus had to say.
So good luck Joy, but I know you were confident the people in the wrong that you confronted would develop a distaste for your exposure of the game of lies and deception and that also would put you in the black out zone among certain circles–something you have had from the beginning.
For instance I never understood how you were kept for support and information involving the movie–your photos above 1500, unrivaled knowledge of the events that killed the GMHS crew and your direct contacts with not only the many wild land fire fighters you interviewed and hiked, as well as personal friendship and acquaintance with nearly every citizen of Yarnell should have made you one of the most important consultants to any movie or book for that matter. But then too the journey of the wild land fire incident to the major powers that be has never been a journey of truth-but it instead had degraded into a journey of egotistical bastards willing to commit perjury at the expense of wild land fire fighter safety. Not enough can be said to shame the coverup when so many people were willing to go along with the lies and follow the Amanda story as the grieving widow–understandable but do it with the truth about Mr. Marsh and how he did carelessly kill his crew.
Human Factors excerpts worth considering.
“The great risk management guru of the 1940’s, Dr. Archand Zeller stated: “The human does not change. During the period of recorded history, there is little evidence to indicate that man has changed in any major respect. Because the man does not change, the kinds of errors he commits remain constant. The errors that he will make can be predicted from the errors he has made.”
From Gordon Graham FBINAA Continued Training http://www.lexipol.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Rickover-FBI-NAA-14.pdf
“Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.”
Barry LePatner
“A review of fatal avalanche accidents involving avalanche-aware victims in the 1990’s shows that human factors are not just a contributor to the accidents but are the primary factor in fatal accidents.” In addition, judgment or lack thereof was the most common human error in both aviation and avalanche incidents.
“The problem is not a lack of information regarding wildland fire fuels, weather, and topography, but is instead the problem is how that information is processed. What interfered with the decision-makers’ judgment at the crucial moment?”
Beighley, M., 1995. Beyond the Safety Zone: Creating a Margin of Safety. Fire Management Notes. Volume 55, Number 4. 21-24.
I”n Psychology, there is a common theory called the Principle of Commitment and Consistency. If people commit (verbally or in writing) to an idea or goal, they are more likely to follow through with it. That is the essence of the Principle of Commitment and Consistency. Humans will often agree to do something if they have already shown evidence that they believe this way. Even if the original incentive or motivation is removed after the agreement, humans will continue to follow through.”
David Goleman (2012) Ten Things You Should Know About Your Brain And Leadership
http://www.thespacesproject.org/ten-things-you-should-know-about-your-brain-and-leadership
Here is a transcript copy of the letter obtained from a Public Records Request and discussed below at these links:
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-478025 )
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-478037 )
“From: Deborah Pfingston [email address]
Sent: Thursday January [28 or 29], 2015 7:53 AM (time ?)
To: Reuben Orozco
Subject: Re: Yarnell Fire
“Thank you for including me on all you and your group’s hard work. We have been very busy trying to right some injustices and it has been a battle.
“In this section in your closing you state:
“’In closing, we would like to consider the unofficial rumor that GMHS were coerced into leaving a good black safety zone to move to the ranch. Had the GMHS been adequately trained in reading the fire’s next dangerous move, they would not have made the fateful decisions that led to their deaths. If all the firefighters had been equipped with the proper assessment training, Marsh or anyone else would not have been able to convince them to make the choice that they did.’” (THIS ENTIRE PARAGRAPH WAS ALL BOLDED AND IN QUOTES IN THE ORIGINAL RECORD)
“I am not sure how comfortable I am with the comment about ‘adequately trained’ because I know that GMHS had not received all of the weather information. No matter how much training you have if you are not given all the facts it can lead to mishap. I will leave the ‘coerced’ fact to the Lord – I pray He convicts the men’s hearts who know the truth.
“I do have a request (if possible) I know that there is a software program that can build then show fire progression based on input. Would it be possible to work with this software and put in the fire information that we have about Yarnell and see if it predicts the growth of this fire [that] they state?
“I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon. It was this fact along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain. Yes there were all the facts that your group has so brilliantly shown but please lets not lose sight that we are still fighting for the complete truth.”
“If you have any questions or need anything further let me know. I look forward to the opportunity to see the software.
“God is so good – [may] His peace guide you,“
Thanks for the background. Even if they don’t have it figured out, that sounds like one powerhouse group of FIRE brain power and experience. I mean…they don’t have HAL 9000, but still…
And are you saying you that believe that Pfingston has it figured out with this bold statement, or she only thinks she has it figured out? Because if you are saying you believe she has it figured out, you are confirming you believe without equivocation that a back fire did kill the crew and not the main fire?
“I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon. It was this fact along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain.”
Because you know…I think YOU know everything that happened that day, so if you are saying you believe Pfingston has it figured out without equivocation, ergo I’m pretty much going to take that check to the bank to at least see if it bounces or not?
Elementary my Dear Watson!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lag22Hl2RQw
So…have I finally built a cage around you, you slippery guy you!
I guees that shoukd have been a question mark and not an exclamation mark…just you know…FYI!
Wow! I GUESS that SHOULD have been a question mark and not an exclamation mark! My proof reader has got to go!
Ye Olde Gary,
I need your help. I could use the assistance of a former Senior Special Agent, Supervisor.
Since I believe a crime or crimes took place surrounding the events of 6/30/13, and the standard for prosecution is beyond a reasonable doubt because it’s a criminal matter and not civil, which standard would be the preponderance of evidence (51%), I need help explaining myself.
There is direct and indirect forms of evidence which can corroborate the existence of events which occurred as material facts in a case. Since I’m dusting off my recollection of the rules of evidence, can you help put into simpler terms what I’m speaking of?
My train of thought is that “the big bad fire did not come & get them” nor do ” bad things sometimes happen to good people.” Overt acts and/or negligent acts occurred which killed 19 firefighters on a wildfire in the single worst disaster on record.
Beyond the criminal matter is of course civil liability, which I believe is also a significant elephant in the room.
Please help me hash this out. Your assistance is greatly appreciated!
Hmmm. This is going to require some serious thought 💭
She stated many things that we have been abiding by and heeding in order to discover and reveal the many hidden truths about the YH Fire and the GMHS:
“I will leave the ‘coerced’ fact to the Lord – I pray He convicts the men’s hearts who know the truth.”
“Yes there were all the facts that your group has so brilliantly shown but please lets not lose sight that we are still fighting for the complete truth.”
The “complete truth” is often very difficult for some to deal with it and – in the end – it’s still the truth, as painful as it may be.
WE have been and “are still fighting for the complete truth.”
Woodsman put it quite right because it is “calling a spade a spade. … A lack of independent free-thinkers in our business has led to what we still have today: cognitively dissonant cowards & hypocrites enabling managers protecting their own interests and burying firefighters while wrecking loved ones lives. The dim view of life is astonishing.”
“In order to properly deal with something you must call it what it is.”
Gary,
Based on all that I know so far, I do believe and hereby allege that the GMHS were killed by “friendly fire” from a firing operation for many reasons dealing with the Lookouts, Communications, and Escape Routes components of LCES.
Her recently revealed statement as “fact” merely strengthens that firing operation account with her: “I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon. It was this fact …” She is pretty convinced herself with both “I stand firm” AND “It was this fact …”
The rest of her statement: “… along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain” is what I disagree with.
The “weather change” was a minor causal factor. They had the best view of the fire, the weather, the fire behavior, EVERYTHING – except Air Attack. However, AA had all those aircraft radio distractions visually and audibly in their headsets and all around and below them.
For sure, the GMHS had their own distractions …
But they friggin’ argued and discussed “their options” and watched the fire below them for at least “52 minutes” —- “52 MINUTES!” — while the incrementally increasing fire weather intensely increased the fire behavior EXPONENTIALLY – and according to Air Attack Bravo 33 – the fire burned through that death bowl and up through that saddle above them more intensely than he had ever witnessed in his career.
( https://www.nwcg.gov/committee/6mfs/escape-routes1 )
RTS,
“Based on all that I know so far, I do believe and hereby allege that the GMHS were killed by “friendly fire” from a firing operation for many reasons dealing with the Lookouts, Communications, and Escape Routes components of LCES.”
I appreciate you calling a spade a spade. You went for it. A lack of independent free-thinkers in our business has led to what we still have today: cognitively dissonant cowards & hypocrites enabling managers protecting their own interests and burying firefighters while wrecking loved ones lives. The dim view of life is astonishing. Thank you for doing the right thing and dealing with what you have to to do it.
“In order to properly deal with something you must call it what it is.”
Well okay then…I guess that pretty much lays it out? And all I can think of to say right now is…OMGosh!
Oh…and one more thing.
Thank you.
And no…even if it is proved to be a 100% accurate fact that satisfies even WTKTT’s fact based conclusion process, there is nothing that can ever absolve Eric Marsh of his ultimate responsibility for the deaths of his crew due to his reckless and criminally negligent decisions and subsequent actions.
And by the same logic…Jesse Steed is guilty of the same crime except if I were on the jury, I would use my prerogative to declare “not guilty” based on jury nullification. And jury nullification can happen due to a lot of factors that have nothing to do with guilt or innocence of the accused. It can be a factor simply because a jury member does not like the law, or the color of tie the prosecutor wore during his closing argument.
And if we get down into the weeds, there remains the fact that Steed was the crew boss and not Marsh at the time the fatal decision was made, therefore Steed is guilty but Marsh isn’t, but I maintain Marsh never relinquished control of the crew to Steed because he was Eric Marsh and everything that entailed.
I’ve reconsidered addressing the “S” prong of LCES above, so I’ll do it here.
This is from a paper titled: “It Could Not Be Seen Because It Could Not Be Believed on June 30, 2013” regarding the “lunch spot” causal factors on several fatality wildfires.
( https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-94391-6_22 )
“2.2 Consequences of Inattention – Fatality Fires and ‘Lunch Spot’ Nexus Theory
“Additionally, the multi-fatality South Canyon (1994), 30-Mile (2001), and YH (2013) Fires shared a common element when the WF disengaged to a designated ‘Lunch Spot’. In this setting, due to numerous physiological and psychological circumstances, e.g. fatigue, stress, dehydration, alcohol-related impairment (hangovers), diversions, distractions, interruptions, etc. – time essentially stood still. In each of these above noted tragic wildfires, when the WF reengaged, they were evidently unmindful of basic wildland firefighting training and evident fire weather and fire behavior markers favored staying put. They were so engrossed with “discussing their options” of staying put or reengaging, they ceased observing more pressing tasks, like weather. They let go of strategic management for less serious, less vital events, i.e. strategy omission [20].
“Credible research on attention found when someone is otherwise engaged, at times they fail to “see” otherwise noticeable, fully visible, – yet unexpected objects or events, i.e. ‘inattentional blindness’ (IB)”. A likely severe result is that it can sometimes lead one to miss items that one wanted or, more importantly, needed to experience [21], [22]. If one’s attention is set for a certain number of primary-task items and the offered items meet their expectation, the individual may be more likely to exhibit IB for an unforeseen and yet likely critical visual event [21], [22].
“This may help make some sense of why the GMHS and others faced and then reacted to this obscure hazardous phenomenon.”
The Wildland Fire Non-Lessons Learned Center actually posted on this very same “Lunch Spot” issue, however, with a slightly different, more subtle angle.
“The Lunch Spot Spring 2014, Volume 4, Issue 1” (never have been able to get the WLFLLC links to work on IM)
“When the smoke is churning and we’re slamming line, the physical location of the Lunch Spot often coincides with a decision point. It’s commonly a spot offering a safe place to take a tactical pause. It might not always take place while the crew is eating, but the decisions made in those moments can literally determine life and death.”
“So What?
“So what? Is this moment in time on a fire even significant? Obviously, with hindsight, we can argue it is significant. It might not go down exactly as described or always take place while the crew is eating, but these conditions and the decisions made in those moments can literally determine life and death. So what usually happens? Maybe a conscious decision about strategy is made or a casual request for assistance comes across the radio. Maybe we just notice a way we could be of use—and BAM—the afternoon action is on.
“The Conscious Decision
“The conscious decision about strategy sounds something like:“Hey, let’s gear up and head back to the trucks; looks like we are going big box on this thing.”That usually gets a few hoots and a grin or two—the likelihood of big burn shows and 16’s just went way up. We’ll prep anything you want for a chance at the torch.
“Obviously, the conscious decision could come in all different forms. … Either way, it’s an intentional action—based on the observed conditions. Often times, a change in strategy calls for a tactical relocation. In those moments we think about efficiency and how we can contribute. We weigh options and make a decision based on what we currently know.Maybe we head off to a ranch. Usually we make it to the ranch, sometimes we barely make it to the ranch, and once in a great while we become proof that this work environment is way more complex and dangerous than we are willing to acknowledge.”
______
“Because of our history, those two words have come to represent a critical decision point. It’s the small window we have to put real thought into: What we’re facing; What really matters; and What we’re willing to risk. So let’s use it.
“Are We Heading Off to Repeat History?
After the shock of Yarnell Hill and all the other tragedies of 2013, we—as the Wildland Fire Service—are currently at the “Lunch Spot”.
________
“I’m terrified we’re not acknowledging the gravity of the situation, not using this pause to genuinely take stock of what we are facing. Does what we’re doing make sense? I’m afraid we’re going to gear-up with good intentions and unknowingly head off to repeat history.”
Really? “Terrified we’re not acknowledging the gravity of the situation”
The vast majority of WFs have acknowledged it, are not terrified, and continue to carry on safely and efficiently doing their “inherently dangerous” jobs very effectively.
Like I said, I consider them the the Non-WLFLLC because of this kind of fatalistic attitude and conclusions.
And that’s what happens when we have Incomplete Lessons Learned from cover-ups and lies instead of Complete Lessons Learned based on fact and the truth of what Human Factors and Human Failures caused these wildland fire fatalities.
It certainly was NOT fuels, weather, topography, and fire behavior. There are a lot of people that get it and they are definitely making ore of a positive impact that the Non-WLFLLC.
Check out Matt Holmstrom’s Common Denominators on Tragedy Fires – Updated for a New (Human) Fire Environment.
( https://www.iawfonline.org/article/common-denominators-tragedy-fires-updated/ )
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 22, 2019 at 1:09 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Here is a transcript copy of the letter obtained from a Public Records Request
————————————————————————————————-
From: Deborah Pfingston [email address]
Sent: Thursday January [28 or 29], 2015 7:53 AM (time ?)
To: Reuben Orozco
Subject: Re: Yarnell Fire
( snip )
I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon.
It was this fact along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain. Yes there were all the facts that your group has so brilliantly shown but please lets not lose sight that we are still fighting for the complete truth.
( snip )
————————————————————————————————–
It is absolutely NO SECRET that Deborah Pfingston ( biological mother of deceased GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell ) has always believed there was a manual ‘back burn’ that took place in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
She came onto this ongoing public discussion way back on April 12, 2014 and flat-out said so.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vi-comments/#comment-24173
—————————————————————————————————
On April 12, 2014 at 8:11 am, Deborah Pfingston said…
Thank you for doing this digging for me.
I have theory – of which I have had many but discover they won’t work –
I really think there was a back burn set possibly by the trailers.
Thoughts!
—————————————————————————————————
She then went on to ask for any information about ‘crews’ or ‘engines’ that might have been out at the extreme west end of ‘West Way’, by the Jerry Thompson lookout location.
She also said she had (quote) “lots of research” of her own on this ‘burn out’ possibility.
The only mysteries have always been what HER ‘original sources’ were… and if she ended up discovering things herself that are still not ( yet ) publicly known.
** APOLOGY
Okay… REALLY bad TYPO ( and brain fart ) in the message just above.
Deborah Pfingston is the biological mother of GM hotshot Andrew Ashcraft… and NOT Robert Caldwell.
My sincere apologies for that.
I do wish we could ‘edit’ these posts after hitting ‘send’.
WTKTT,
Thank you for the post and the opportunity to go back to former 2014 posts with photos and videos from Dropboxes as well. LOTS of good discussion and good information for what we know now.
Pfingston posted: “I really think there was a back burn set possibly by the trailers.”
I’m not quite sure what she means by “the trailers” other than those FFs and / or WFs that were trailing behind the rest of the other FFs and / or WFs performing (manual) hand ignitions.
AZ Forestry Jake Guidiana (sp?) stated in March 2019 that they watched the June 30, 2013, smoke columns from those alleged burn outs all day.
Moreover, also learned in March 2019, that the “one other” noted in the SAIT-SAIR is / was BRHS Will Trahain (p?) that worked with BRHS HEQB Cory Ball that day.
So…RTS my old friend, surely you know that you are indeed one of my dearest and best friends from back in the day? I’m sure you remember how close we were at one time and I for one…would like to see that close relationship blossom yet once again before this veil of tears is finally lifted you and I can pass to dwell in the eternal fire camp together, at least once in a while for old times sake?
That being said…I’m sure you will agree that no important or meaningful matter should remain a secret between us when it comes to our shared passion and of course our common desire and commitment to see truth, justice and the American way rule the day when it comes to the YHF Disaster? And even though I have debated greatly within my own soul whether or not to dare to ask this question, I have decided that I must because you are so plugged in to the WLF Matrix due to the fact you are so respected as the longest serving and assuredly one of the living legends and great hotshot crew bosses of all time, you know…for the ages.
Is the reason you keep coming back to the possibility that a friendly backfire may have emerged from the Shrine area, in addition to your commitment to not only endorsing but giving your full, enthusiastic, and unqualified support while rising to not only defend but to promote our precious Joy’s important and impressive work on her website, in spite of WTKTT’s negative response to date just because he insists there is no evidence to support her insistence that such a backfire did in fact not only occur, but that dreadful event was actually responsible for the deaths of our crew because you know that it be true from your reliable and trustworthy sources of information (SOI’s) within the WLF community and you have been trying your best to communicate that to us, in spite of my recalcitrant and inexcusable attitude and failure to get with the program, which of course I apologize for and feel terrible about, without actually coming right out and saying as much so as to maintain your vow of confidentiality to your SOI’s and that is the Great Secret…Hmmm? Well…is it old friend?
Oh…and one more thing. I just want you to know that I have turned my life around and I now fully support our President…Donald J. Trump and wish him all the best while I spit on progressives and the Mueller Report except for the parts where it fully exonerates our Dear Leader, no collusion…no conspiracy. God Bless America!
Whoops…I fucked up the messaging and talking points, my bad!
No Collusion…No Obstruction! God Bless America and President Donald J. Trump! 🇺🇸
Gary,
Thanks for the kudos My Friend. Not so sure on the well respected part from many WFs because of my stance on the YH Fire and the GMHS. “Just let it go, leave it alone, you’re dishonoring the dead, etc.” is what I often hear.
This has got to be THE longest sentence I have ever read: “Is the reason you keep coming back to the possibility that a friendly backfire may have emerged from the Shrine area, in addition to your commitment to not only endorsing but giving your full, enthusiastic, and unqualified support while rising to not only defend but to promote our precious Joy’s important and impressive work on her website, in spite of WTKTT’s negative response to date just because he insists there is no evidence to support her insistence that such a backfire did in fact not only occur, but that dreadful event was actually responsible for the deaths of our crew because you know that it be true from your reliable and trustworthy sources of information (SOI’s) within the WLF community and you have been trying your best to communicate that to us, in spite of my recalcitrant and inexcusable attitude and failure to get with the program, which of course I apologize for and feel terrible about, without actually coming right out and saying as much so as to maintain your vow of confidentiality to your SOI’s and that is the Great Secret…Hmmm?”
Did you even take a breath on that one?
The June 30, 2013, Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing Operation is and was a very real, very probable event that occurred and was viewed and documented by many.
I was referring to the WLF who value the lives of the next hotshot crew who will eventually join our dead from the El Cariso (12) Mormon Lake (3) and Prineville Hotshots (9). And now, those from the worst disaster in hotshot history, the dead NINETEEN Granite Mountain Hotshots more than they do, well…I’m not sure what the others could possibly value more than the lives of our dead from the next crew who will eventually join our hotshot disaster roster?
I have found a certain clarity and appreciation for life did come with the years that I would like to share with others I love and pray can can eventually join us. Because being a retired WLF is really a good life. 🙂
(People are only so interested in hearing my story and when they ask…I claim WLF status because that is always were my heart has been).
Because there is one thing I am very sure of…once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, but three times is definitely a pattern. There will be a next time…it’s just a question of when it will happen not if it will happen. 🙁
Historical Footnote, I like to include the 9 Prineville Hotshots who were burned to death on the South Canyon Fire which is commonly called the Storm King Mountain Fire so we don’t forget them. But they were under the direct supervision of the Incident Commander who was the [Smoke] Jumper-in Charge of the fire at the time of the disaster. Hotshot culture doesn’t give Squad Bosses the status to directly challenge Incident Commanders, especially when they are also the JIC since the WLF culture does give so much deference to smokejumpers.
And yes, I really outdid myself with that run on sentence…I think I might have set a new personal best? 🤔
Thank goodness we have been joined by so many people (non WLF) who care as much as we do and have contributed so much to this historical record.
Oh…and one more thing. Thank goodness for John Dougherty and Investigative Media because without him, we would not have had a voice. I do believe most of the answers are here on this thread and I have to believe before it is all over…all of the answers will be here for future generations. 🇺🇸
And just one more thing. I don’t know which WLF you are referring to Fred, but the world is full of people who talk the talk, but you walked the walk no one else did and very few WLF who have ever saddled up to hump up the mountain could have walked. So…fuck them and the ponies they rode in on. This is for them…dry. 🍆
There are lots of WFs with that attitude.
I feel that we are honoring the fallen by revealing the truth and exposing the lies while “they” and their ilk are dishonoring them with their cover-ups and whitewashes and blatantly false, predetermined conclusions.
After all, “The Team found no indications of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol” in their “Factual” Serious Accident Investigation Report (September 28, 2013 SAIT-SAIT page 10 ) where the readers are told to come to their own conclusions.
What a sick and twisted joke …
Joy A Collura says
APRIL 20, 2019 AT 1:40 PM
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Please use this link to participate in keeping the site existing by donating here:
htt ps: //ww w.investigativemedia.c om/
Please support independent investigative journalism by making tax-deductible contributions to the Arizona Center for Investigative Journalism, an IRS-approved nonprofit corporation.
h ttp: //arizonawatch.org/donate/
Sometimes his link is down but I strongly suggest to contact him and let him know if that happens.
https://ww w.investigativemedia.co m/contact/
also—
WHAT ARE THESE?
I see them on every page?
Why have you not joined that Gary to pull your own webpage to here with the ad slots?
In the history of IM I have donated a lot of funds and I have no income.
How about the pension of yours— help keep the page not just afloat but going strong.
Also what is this:
Your ads will be inserted here by
Easy Plugin for AdSense.
Please go to the plugin admin page to
Paste your ad code OR
Suppress this ad slot.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on
April 20, 2019 at 5:08 pm
>> Joy A Collura asked…
>>
>> Also what is this:
>>
>> Your ads will be inserted here by
>>
>> Easy Plugin for AdSense.
>>
>> Please go to the plugin admin page to
>> Paste your ad code OR
>> Suppress this ad slot.
That just means that a recent software upgrade is now automatically inserting a ‘template’ that COULD be used to display an ‘AdSense’ advertising image in that ‘square’… but it has not been ‘implemented’.
As it says…
“Paste your ad code OR Suppress this ad slot”.
No ‘ad code’ has been implemented… AND the ‘ad slot’ has NOT been supressed. The same template that now comes with the software upgrade is still just sitting there visible on the page.
Hallelujah! Can I get an amen? AMEN!
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 19, 2019 at 12:51 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The June 30, 2013, Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing
>> Operation is and was a very real, very probable event that
>> occurred and was viewed and documented by many.
Which is it? Very REAL… or still just very PROBABLE?
Those are actually two incompatible “levels of verification”.
Has to be one or the other.
You have stated your reasons for “protecting your sources” many times, and I totally respect them… but you know me… always ready to “probe around the edges” and see what ( if anything ) can be publicly known.
So I have a question.
If there really is actual “documentation” regarding this event… can you simply confirm what TIME it took place that day?
WTKTT,
You make a valid point on the “Very REAL… or still just very PROBABLE” question. I agree with you that they are “actually two incompatible ‘levels of verification'” and that it “Has to be one or the other.”
I mentioned the probable based on what some FFs, WFs, and other people have concluded based on the suggestive evidences presented by the multiple photo and video images of separate and distinct smoke columns (plumes).
Based on metadata from June 30, 2013, photos and videos as well as FF and WF anecdotes of those on the fire, the best estimates on the timing of the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing Operation were sometime after 1615 (4:15 PM).
This is also based on the Brian Lauber photo series (1629 – 4:29 PM) and the recently discovered ABC News 15 photo at 1631 (4:31 PM).
And the fact that the only other evidences of that firing operation were based upon the July 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire Library video witnessed by over 20 WFs, FFs, and citizens indicating actual firefighters ‘wearing Nomex and using drip torches, and in an area in The Shrine where the rock wall was visible.’ This was also viewed on YouTube for a time until BOTH of these mysteriously disappeared (as so many YH Fire records have).
The “real” evidence is based upon those sources that wish to remain protected (i.e. FFs, WFs, and citizens) that were actually involved and / or provided evidences in the form of photos, videos, audios, and / or anecdotes.
Hopefully, some of these folks will feel comfortable enough at some point to change their minds about their anonymity and / or there will be more FFs, WFs, and citizens that were involved or have records and evidences that come forward and begin posting on this IM site.
I have no idea where this will post because I clicked on the reply link below your post and it to the bottom of the Chapter XXVI.
This is a newly discovered Arizona Republic / azcentral photo that I came across that adds to the plethora of suggestive evidence.
Here is a link to an article written in August 25, 2013 that clearly shows a photo of separate and distinct smoke columns in the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor. It’s near the very bottom of the article.
“Vanessa Purdy took this picture of the Yarnell Hill fire approaching her home just minutes before she received an immediate evacaution notice on the reverse 911 system.”
( https://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/2013 0807yarnell-hill-fire-rebuild-hope.html# )
Hopefully, this link will work because the one I originally posted did not.
( https://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130807yarnell-hill-fire-rebuild-hope.html# )
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 20, 2019 at 11:31 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Hopefully, this link will work because the
>> one I originally posted did not.
>>
>> https://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130807yarnell-hill-fire-rebuild-hope.html#
That link works. Thanks.
Yes… I have seen that photo before… at the ‘last house’ in Glen Ilah right alonside the driveway that leads out to the Boulder Springs Ranch. The Purdy home was completely lost in the fire.
There is a SECOND ‘Vanessa Purdy’ photo taken from that exact same location, at that exact same time, looking even more ‘northward’ than the first one ( and back towards the Shrine Road area ).
That ‘second’ Vanessa Purdy photo is still here, accompanying this article…
OUTDOORSTORMS.COM
Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire
Published: ( Unknown date )
Last Modified: 05/21/2017
By: Tom Dolan
http://outdoorstorms.com/yarnellhillfire.htm
That ‘second’ Vanessa Purdy photo is the TWELFTH one down, in the series of photos that appear under the article.
Here is a DIRECT LINK to that SECOND ‘Vanessa Purdy’ photo which accompanies the article listed above..
Notice the ‘timestamp’ of 4:30 PM in the image filename itself….
http://outdoorstorms.com/images/YarnellFireImages/YarnellSequence_FireSpread_430PM_TDolan.jpg
Also notice the FIFTH photo ( from the top down ) in that article above.
It is credited to ‘Kurt Florman’, and it shows the fireline coming across that ‘middle bowl’ at exactly 3:36 PM, just 5 minutes after Byron Kimball’s SECOND weather alert over the TAC channel.
It was taken from an elevated vantage point in Glen Ilah, looking BACK north at the fireline now ‘racing’ south across that ‘middle bowl’ and straight for Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
And YES… those ARE the two ‘white’ Granite Mountain Crew Carriers there in the lower left corner of the photo, still sitting where they were parked in the Sesame clearing area.
Just moments after this photo was taken, Brian Frisby would then accidentally ‘stumble’ across Brendan McDonough evacuating his lookout position ( obviously in the nick of time )… and the process of then MOVING those Granite Mountain Crew Carriers began.
Here is a DIRECT LINK to that ‘FIFTH from the top’ photo I’m talking about now…
http://outdoorstorms.com/images/YarnellFireImages/YarnellSequence_FrontReversal_336PM_TDolan.jpg
WTKTT, thanks for the additional Yarnell resident photos indicating a firing operation.
This is an interesting addition to the verification of an actual firing operation.
I came across this from a Public Rescords Request about a January 28, 2015, email from Deborah Pfingston to Reuben Orozco “RE: Yarnell Fire” where she acknowledges that there was in “fact” a firing operation (no telling where she got her information}
“I STAND FIRM THAT THERE WAS A BACK BURN THAT CAME UP THAT CANYON. IT WAS THIS FACT ALONG WITH THE WEATHER CHANGE THAT THE IC NEVER SENT OUT because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain. YES THERE WERE ALL THE FACTS that your group has so brilliantly shown but please LETS NOT LOSE SIGHT THAT WE ARE STILL FIGHTING FOR THE COMPLETE TRUTH.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Citing from IM article: Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation Ignored Major Mistakes by the State. October 17, 2013 By John Dougherty
“The report “is a shell game in so many ways that it does a disservice to what we know about fire management,” says Paul Orozco, a retired U.S. Forest Service fire-management officer who participated in the investigation into the deaths of four firefighters in the 2001 Thirtymile Fire near Winthrop, Washington.”
Orozco was a member of a group of former WFs addressing the issues of the YH Fire in order to prevent any further WF fatalities.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 21, 2019 at 9:19 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT, thanks for the additional
>> Yarnell resident photos
>> indicating a firing operation.
I ( me, personally ) am in no way ‘suggesting’ that is what the photograph(s) ‘indicate’. I was just making sure you were aware that there has always been more than just ONE photograph taken at that Vanessa Purdy residence/location the afternoon of June 30, 2013.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> This is an interesting addition
>> to the verification of an
>> actual firing operation.
It is, in fact, an ‘interesting’ photograph… but again… I ( me, personally ) do not know WHAT it may or may not ‘indicate’ and/or ‘verify’.
The annotated text on the photograph itself says it indicates how (quote) “Spot fires quickly developed ahead of the main fire”..
Whether that is based on actual eyewitness information coming from the person who took the photograph… or just a ‘guess’ on the part of the person publishing the photograph… I ( me, personally ) do not know.
WTKTT,
Both photographs indicate suggestive evidence of the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor firing operation on the afternoon of June 30, 2013
Deep-six entirely your use of the term “suggestive evidence” for sheer weakness & inaplicability. It’s junk.
Work within the terms corroborating & circumstantial in order to make meaningful progress in the development of the theory. Repeated use of “suggestive” makes you sound like you don’t have much confidence in your position and isn’t used in these situations anyway.
Woodsman,
Yes sir. Copy that. And point well taken on the use of that feckless term.
It was one I borrowed from Alan Sinclair at the March2016 Central Arizona Wildfire Response Team (CAWRT) RT-130 Refresher
( http://johnmacleanbooks.com/yarnell/sinclair.shtml )
Please forgive me for my indiscretion. I must have been caught up in the moment or something
Any other points of preference that you’d like to bring up … just let it on out Brother
Does anybody know who Reuben Orozco’s group is and where their information is stored? For some reason Deborah Pfingston thinks they have it figured out.
Thanks for understanding that I’m trying to help. I’d just say go for it. The photo showing 2 distinct fire fronts is a whopper. Clearly 2 separate fire fronts came from somewhere. They both can’t be the main fire front. Therefore one is a ground ignition (which is reasonable & known common practice in wildland firefighting). No suggestion required – it’s corroborating evidence of ground ignitions.
The multitude of personnel documented in the area in question with the tools and capability of initiating ground ignitions is strong circumstantial evidence. The statement from True in the video of “making sure people arent burning themselves out, GD!” is more strong circumstantial evidence of ground ignitions having occurred in the area.
And so on and so forth.
Thanks, friend.
Gary,
A quick post here to advise that I will post an answer above since this has no more “reply” options left other than how we’re doing it
Moreover, Orozco’s group has no official name. It was / is a group of six retired USFS Fire Staff, Managment Officers, and two Hot Shot Crew Superintendents with each one having over 30 years of wildland fire experience.
I question whether this group had it “figured out.”
However, I do believe the Pfingston has it figured out with this bold statement:
“I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon. It was this fact along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain.”
Interesting article with a chart showing the number of WLF fatalities in the U.S. from 2007 – 2016.
https://qz.com/1470741/the-blazes-californias-wildland-firefighters-are-battling-now-are-the-future-of-the-golden-state/
Although on closer examination, it looks like their chart is way off for 2013 even though they quote the National Interagency Fire Center statistics, so I have to question the rest of the article. For one thing, they say all hotshot crews work for the U. S. Forest Service…so never mind.
Although I am going to order this book since the guy is a professor of Sociology now and a former WLF who did his thesis on the crew he worked on. So…it should be accurate and enlightening?
On the Fireline: Living and Dying with Wildland Firefighters
Matthew DesmondNovember 15, 2008
University of Chicago Press
1
Buy as GiftAdd to Wishlist
Free sample$4.20 $3.40 Rent$28.00 $15.12 Ebook
In this rugged account of a rugged profession, Matthew Desmond explores the heart and soul of the wildland firefighter. Having joined a firecrew in Northern Arizona as a young man, Desmond relates his experiences with intimate knowledge and native ease, adroitly balancing emotion with analysis and action with insight. On the Fireline shows that these firefighters aren’t the adrenaline junkies or romantic heroes as they’re so often portrayed.
An immersion into a dangerous world, On the Fireline is also a sophisticated analysis of a high-risk profession—and a captivating read.
“Gripping . . . a masterful account of how young men are able to face down wildfire, and why they volunteer for such an enterprise in the first place.”—David Grazian, Sociological Forum
“Along with the risks and sorrow, Desmond also presents the humor and comaraderie of ordinary men performing extraordinary tasks. . . . A good complement to Norman Maclean’s Young Men and Fire. Recommended.”—Library Journal
COLLAPSE
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Matthew Desmond is a doctoral student in the Department of Sociology at the University of Wisconsin–Madison.
FYI, the two previous posts aren’t the non sequitur they appear to be because the book is mentioned in the article I told you “never mind” about reading.
The author even has a Chapter titled, “The Incompetent Dead”, which kinda reflects my thinking except for truly random accidents that are anomalies. I think almost all deaths and seriuis injuries can be traced back to human error, even if that human error was made when they received deeply flawed training in the case of the current fire shelter training.
And like RTS and Bob like to write, if people followed the rules, they wouldn’t end up dead except for very rare occasions.
Book Review/Compte Rendu
Matthew Desmond, On the Fireline: Living and Dying with Wildland Firefighters. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2007, 368 pp. $US 24.00 hardcover (978-0-226-14408-5)
In the wake of 9/11, firefighters became popular heroes. In addition to whatever role they, as one of several paramilitary occupational groups (police, border guards, coast guard), play in what Althusserians referred to as the repressive state apparatus, they also serve a protective function that requires that the mostly working-class men who typically fill such jobs willingly step into situations that everyone else should and does, at least if they are able, flee. How this happens, why such individuals ac- cept and deal with this kind of risk, is the central issue of this book. In the wake of 9/11 one might fear that this is going to be another celebration of unsung American heroes. There is no need to worry. Desmond’s pres- entation is full of respect for the men that were his research participants, but it is a thoughtful and at times critical analysis of the interactions be- tween the structuring structures of a specific masculine habitus, the per- ception and management of risk by the firefighters, and the bureaucratic cultures and institutions in which they are enmeshed.
On the Fireline is explicitly situated as an analysis of risk, especially how it is perceived and managed by rural working class men who fight forest fires in the hot, dry, American southwest. At its core is a focus on what the author calls country masculinity and how this fits in an al- most totalizing manner with the US Forest Service’s wildland firefight- ing bureaucracy. At one level the argument is quite simple. The answer to the question “why do wildland firefighters take such a risky job?” is that the country masculinity of the firefighters that Desmond worked with, studied, and writes about provides them with the dispositions, the habitus, that the firefighting bureaucracy needs. They find themselves reflected in the “organizational common sense” of the Forest Service. The institution itself does not have to work very hard to socialize these men into a reality in which firefighting is not perceived as overly risky if the rules of engagement are followed. It only needs to tweak them a little. Their combination of practical, technical skill, physical toughness, sense of individual responsibility, love of wild rurality, and eschewal of the etiquette of polite urban society comprises many of the values that are essential to being a successful wildland firefighter. Interestingly, Desmond emphasizes that the young men are not reckless on the job. They do not celebrate foolish acts of supposed bravery. They do, however, largely accept the notion that death and injury are for the most part the result of individual error.
The book succeeds on several levels. It is a highly readable, at times funny, very insightful, Bourdieu-inspired ethnography of country mas- culinity, and as such very useful for courses on masculinity. It is a fine example of how to apply structuration theory and, therefore, a good re- source for classes in social theory. It also offers a penetrating examina- tion of the logic of bureaucratic organization and the way it creates a common sense world in which blame is always individualized and thus diverted from the structural and institutional factors that may lead, in the case of wildland firefighters at least, to unnecessary injury and death.
Indeed, Chapter 8, a deconstruction of the official explanation of the death of a colleague from burn injuries caused by being caught in a fire is a great case study in critical thinking, as well as an indictment of the common sense understanding of a firefighter’s death within the US For- est Service. Finally, the book as a whole is a detailed exposition of the view that risk is a context-dependent concept.
The key theoretical concept employed by Desmond is Bourdieu’s habitus. It has, of course, proven to be very useful but it is well known that even though Bourdieu argued that any particular habitus had to be historicized, the concept lends itself more to synchronic than to dia- chronic analyses. This book does not totally escape the problems this generates. Marxian-influenced thinkers have held that one of the features of working-class culture that distinguishes it from bourgeois dispositions is its collective rather than individualist orientation. The country mas- culinity of Desmond’s rural working-class men is shot through with a kind of individualism, one that easily falls prey to blame-the-victim ex- planations. Some discussion of the characteristics of the political econ- omy of rural America that produces this perhaps unique working-class individualism would help here. Details of the family backgrounds of the key informants and workmates that form the subjects of the book are of- fered but some broader social, political and economic contextualization of country masculinity would add some dynamism to the interpretation. Contemporary country masculinity emerged from and in a particular set of circumstances and will transform as the circumstances evolve. The appeal of dangerous jobs to rural working-class men is undoubtedly somewhat influenced by the labour market opportunities open to them, as well as by their culture. In Distinctions Bourdieu argued that working- class culture was marked by necessity; ndividuals come to prefer that to which they are in any case limited. Some discussion of the limitations of the rural United States that generated the tastes and dispositions of Des- mond’s key informants would make their habitus seem less sui generis and free floating.
None the less, On the Fireline offers a thick and rich take on a par- ticular version of rural, masculine, working-class culture in the United States and how it fits with an institutional setting that requires young men to do dangerous work. It offers another example of how social sys- tems are unconsciously reproduced and thus helps us understand how and why young men willingly put themselves in harm’s way.
Wow…even though I have a minor in Sociology, this book might give me a headache to try and read it? Although if I am tracking the book review correctly and the book review tracks the book correctly, I think the author might be right on target?
Just…FYI.
Repeat…awaiting moderation?
And that is because as I have written many times. as a student of the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill Fies, I can track all of the hotshot deaths in history to the criminal negligent incompetence of three men, El Cariso Hotshot. Crew Boss Gordon King, Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew Boss Tony Czak, and Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew Boss Eric Marsh, in addition to the gross incompetence of South Canyon Incident Commander Don Mackey. All of whom were killed in addition to the hotshots they were responsible for killing through their incompetence except for King.
And of course in addition to the same exact primary cause of all the deaths in question, there were many contributing factors, most of which shared a commonality with every other fire. These included fire management, agency management, time of year, month and time of day, topography, weather, communications, and fuel to name just a few.
There were also the usual suspects present on every fire that included the Swiss Cheese Model, the Domino Effect, the Abilene Paradox, deeply flawed training, and most of all…hotshot hubris.
I really like the description of blue collar working class young men being attracted to WLF, I sure as hell know that is what I was and I still am in spite of the fact I managed to hold down a white collar (and BDU collar) job for 18 years
Although at least half of every hotshot crew I was on were either college students or college graduates, most of whom went on to white collar jobs themselves in just about every profession you can name. And many of those who didn’t, went on to make a career out of FIRE within the WLF community…AKA FIRE Industrial/Commercial Complex. 🙂
And many…just ended up getting ground up by The Machine. 🙁
Gary,
Thank you for augmenting and clarifying your post on the 2007 to 2016 WF deaths article.
This is an interesting and thought provoking video hosted by the North Atlantic Fire Science Exchange Published on Mar 5, 2018 titled:
“Are Firefighter Fatalities Normal Accidents?’” presented by Lloyd C. Irland, The Irland Group and Matt Carroll, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd3bRYDiYB0 )
They talk about the comparable thread of similarities in military, maritime, and wildland fire accidents and incidents.
They conclude that the trend has been steady in spite of technology and other “things” to supposedly prevent them.
Wildland fire fatalities – like all fatalities – are inevitable due to human factors, human errors, and human failures. They can never be entirely prevented.
However, they can be reduced. They posit “A call to do something different, not the same thing better.”
The warrior quote at the end is insightful and derives from this book:
Blue On Blue: A History Of Friendly Fire
by Geoffrey Regan from New York: Avon Books. 258 pages, C$15.00 (paperback); Reviewed by Major the Rev. Arthur Gans
( http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo4/no3/book-livre-06-eng.asp )
And an interesting parallel is the YH Fire rogue firing operation that several of us confidently allege that took place in the Sesame Street and Shrine as seen in the July 2013 Yarnell, AZ library video and on YouTube (both mysteriously and quickly vanished), former Yarnell Fire Chief Pete Anderson’s video confidently stating that this corridor was to be utilized “in case there was a burnout like this” (1:52 to 1:54)/
“In case there was a burnout like this.”
He knew there was a burnout and so do many others there that day! FFs, WFs, and citizens alike!
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFObh-fNOl8 ), and numerous photos and videos posted on Joy A. Collura’s website
( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) as strong suggestive evidence indicated by very clearly identified separate and distinct smoke columns (plumes).
So then, when you think about it, it’s now worth considering that the GMHS may very well have been killed from a “friendly fir[ing]” operation that was not communicated to supervisors or adjoning forces.
Both Fire Order 7 and Watch Out 7 were compromised. However, you will notice that “adjoining forces” is not included in Watch Out 7.
Right on…I will check it out, thank you!
And while I am at it, I am going to pontificate while I chew on another favorite bone of mine as I expand on another one of my theories…or opinions.
And that is when the author of the above discredited article repeated the all to common literary trope by describing hotshots by writing, “At the top of the wildland firefighting hierarchy are the US Forest Service’s “hotshot” teams, the profession’s equivalent of military special forces.”
And if anyone has been following my thought process over the past few years (sigh…years!) you will know I object to describing hotshots as the “equivalent of military special forces.”
And this may seem like an unnecessary nuanced trip down into the weeds, but I think it is important because it goes to the very core of a hotshot crew’s mission while fighting wildfires, IMHO.
And that is because that erroneous analogy actually detracts from the very hard and complex work hotshot crews actually do, while at the same time, attributing the work of “nut sack lickers” i.e., smokejumpers, to hotshot crews.
I think smokejumpers are the “Special Forces” of the wild land firefighting world and hotshots are the “Army Rangers.” Now…that being said, no comparison of WLF to military units is ever accurate because as I have stated many times, fires can’t think or shoot back and they have to follow all of the laws of nature all of the time and therefore, wildfires are completely predictable and therefore we should win every time by everyone going home safely barring random, bizarre, freak accidents that are truly anomalies and not the norm.
But…most people including me use military comparisons when describing fighting wild fires all of the time, and those analogies are fair just as long as those who are making them, understand the nuances and can explain those slight differences to those to whom they are communicating. And none of them ever do understand what they are writing or saying…they just repeat the false descriptions they have already heard or read others incorrectly misuse.
And for the first time since hotshot crews were created, hitshots are getting a lot of press. I think it is due to the deaths of 19 hotshots on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and all of the news coverage, books and movie that came in the aftermath, which is a horrible way to finally get the recognition hotshots deserve since they have been laboring in the shadow of smokejumpers for decades.
So…here is the bottom line, “The Ranger Regiment is the United States’ premier light infantry fighting force, specializing in raids and assault missions deep inside enemy territory.”
Whereas, Green Berets are referred to as the Army’s Special Forces and are less likely than are Rangers to participate in large scale missions or operations. Also included in this group of warriors are Navy SEALS and Marine Raiders who all fall into the category of “Special Operators”…I think?
Therefore, Special Operators are to the U.S. Military what smokejumpers are to the wild land FIRE Industrial Complex because they typically work in small teams on unconventional firefighting assignments in small teams.
And furthermore…Army Rangers are to the U.S. Military what hotshots are to the wild land FIRE Industrial Complex because they work in much larger groups up to what would be the equivalent of Battalions size strength on conventional large scale firefighting assignments.
In other words, smokejumpers typically fight the small inconsequential fires (unless they get away) whereas hotshots are reserved for the large fires that are callled either “Project” or “ Campaign” fires. Or at least that is what large complex fires were called back in my day.
There…I think I have officially beaten that horse to death, for the record. And now tye next time you either read or hear some author or journalist describe hotshots, they will compare them to Navy SEALS or Special Forces. Marine Raiders are a family new force and they are having their own recognition issues in the U.S. SOCOM.
And FYI…I do consider it my job on this thread to keep repeating, “Eric Marsh killed his crew as a direct result of his criminally negligent acts and decisions on the YHF Disaster.”
“Look, I have one job on this lousy thread. It’s stupid, but I’m going to do it, okay?”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YKjo9dldp2g
So…you are saying I may owe both Joy and Sonny big apologies for NOT buying into the “friendly backfire out of the shrine” concept?
“This is a bummer, man. That’s a, that’s a bummer.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=0h0m0s&v=z-m9WgAdflY
Man…I really like that book reviewer I quoted above.
He wrote, “The book succeeds on several levels. It is a highly readable, at times funny, very insightful, Bourdieu-inspired ethnography of country mas- culinity, and as such very useful for courses on masculinity. It is a fine example of how to apply structuration theory and, therefore, a good re- source for classes in social theory. It also offers a penetrating examina- tion of the logic of bureaucratic organization and the way it creates a common sense world in which blame is always individualized and thus diverted from the structural and institutional factors that may lead, in the case of wildland firefighters at least, to unnecessary injury and death.”
Which is the same thing I mean to say when I write, “Life on the Happy Jack Hotshots at the Long Valley Ranger Station was like Animal House meets Lord Of The Flies at a Special Operations Forward Operating Base.”
You know…except he says it way better than I do.
Oh…and The Woodsman as well? He has been a big proponent of the “Friendly Backfire” theory as well.
See…yet another adaptation of the military analogy of “friendly fire.”
And may as well include this one as well since it has been discussed before in various forms.
“Sergeant Davis’s Stern Charge: The Obligation of Officers to Preserve the Humanity of Their Troops”
Shannon E. French (2009)
Journal of Military Ethics, 8:2, 116-126,
DOI: 10.1080/15027570903037926To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/15027570903037926
“ABSTRACT: This article examines what it might mean for officers to be held responsible forsafeguarding not just the lives of their troops, but also the humanity of their troops. How shouldsuch a charge be understood, and can it be justified? Arguably, any experience of combat is anassault on the participants’ humanity. The idea that officers should try to shield their troops fromcombat altogether, however, is untenable, for reasons that are discussed (including the danger ofselective conscientious objection). Nor, it is argued, can officers guarantee or ensure that they willnever lead troops in conflicts thatviolate jus ad bellum criteria. If officers are to be held responsiblefor protecting their troops in any way beyond the physical, it must be against specific, severe threatsto their humanity that occur in the course of waging war. Candidates for threats of this kind areconsidered, leading to the conclusion that the greatest threats arise from jus in belloviolations thatdehumanize thevictim and degrade the perpetrator. The question is then raised whether officers infact can protect their troops from committing suchviolations, and the argument is advanced thatthe command climate officers create in their units plays a significant role in encouraging ordeterring serious transgressions of the warrior’s code.”
.You would owe me no apologies about the back fire at the Shrine–You know many times more about these things than I do but I did see that video and after I saw how the firemen do things it only stands to reason that area would have been back fired. Also the photos posted of two smoke stack separated by some distance and what I had seen where the fire had advanced too as we went over the Weaver’s makes me believe there was a backfire. I do not know if you had been to the Shrine, but if you had it would be nice to see what you might think a less educated wild land fire fighter would do considering the wind direction and need to clear that forage while the wind was away from Yarnell. That Ben Palm did just that on the east side and soon after he got his men stationed–Joy and I watched that one and she even attempted to go right to the fire edge as they were back fireing.
This may not post–seems I try to post and not sure if they are going somewhere since I do not see them after the post
Clarification,
I have learned almost everything I know about SOCOM from watching movies, so…
But, that being said, I think most Special Forces (Green Berets) are tasked to train friendly military units in Third World countries.
So…I think the direct equivalent of Navy SEALS is the 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta, commonly referred to as Delta Force, Combat Applications Group, “The Unit”, Army Compartmented Element, or within JSOC as Task Force Green, is an elite special mission unit of the United States Army, under operational control of the Joint Special Operations Command from the base next to my former home town, Joint Base Lewis McCord, which is the next door neighbor to Olympia, Washington.
So…I think the correct analogy would be to compare the smokejumpers to SEALS, Delta Force or Marine Raiders, although I certainly DO NOT MEAN TO IMPLY THOSE MILITARY UNITS ARE NUT SACK LICKERS LIKE THE SMOKEJUMPERS ARE…it’s…nuanced.
In any case, hotshots are the equivalent of “light infantry”, who are usually reserved for and utilized in, large scale, complex, interagency operations and campaign engagements, or Project Fires…IMHO.
Sonny,
I have a clarification question on what you posted here: “That Ben Palm did just that on the east side and soon after he got his men stationed–Joy and I watched that one and she even attempted to go right to the fire edge as they were back fireing.”
Are you referring to the June 30, 2013, YH Fire or the Tenderfoot Fire in June 2016?
Sonny,
Hopefully, you’ll be able to find this since it’s likely gonna post far away from your original post.
I have a clarification question on what you posted here: “That Ben Palm did just that on the east side and soon after he got his men stationed–Joy and I watched that one and she even attempted to go right to the fire edge as they were back fireing.”
Are you referring to the June 30, 2013, YH Fire or the Tenderfoot Fire in June 2016?
No…I would owe everyone an apology who has put that theory forward because I didn’t think it was possible.
But…I think I was wrong, After almost 6 years I now think anything was possible.
There is ONE thing I do know for sure though. The Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster left a lot of damaged people in its aftermath.
Here’s a research paper from the author that Gary cites above titled: Making Firefighters Deployable” by Matthew Desmond in 2010 in Qualitative Sociology (2011) 34: 59–77 DOI 10.1007/s11133-010-9176-7
( https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mdesmond/files/pdf_0_0_1.pdf )
( https://scholar.harvard.edu/mdesmond/publications/making-firefighters-deployable )
“Abstract: Although sociologists have devoted a considerable amount of research to exploring high-risk organizations, they have not yet developed an adequate explanation as to why individuals working within such organizations place themselves in harm’s way and how organizations ensure they remain there. This article addresses this gap by analyzing how the United States Forest Service motivates wildland firefighters to participate in lifethreatening activity. Drawing on ethnographic research and content analyses of official documents, it describes the process by which firefighters come to develop a specific disposition towards risk taking, a disposition through which they view firefighting as an activity void of danger, and how this disposition maintains its shape, and even grows stronger, after confronting its biggest challenge: the death of a firefighter.”
“Keywords: Firefighting. High-risk organizations. Risk. Human error. Death”
“Since 1910, the year the Great Fires of Idaho and Montana killed 72, over nine hundred wildland firefighters have died fighting fire; most of them burned to death. [FN 1] From 12 to 22 wildland firefighters die every year. [FN 2] After a firefighter’s death, one question seems to
resonate above all others: What went wrong? Sociologists (e.g., Driessen 2002; Vaughan 1997), psychologists (e.g., Weick 1993, 1996), and journalists (Maclean 1992, 1999) have pursued this question, attempting to understand why firecrews break down. This article, by contrast, pursues a more fundamental set of questions: How are individuals working in hazardous occupations socialized by their host organizations to perceive safety, danger, and death? In this specific case, how are firefighters socialized to risk by the Forest Service, and what can that teach us about how high-risk organizations motivate workers to undertake life-threatening tasks? [FN 3]
_____________________________________________________________
“’So why do you think we have the Ten and Eighteen?” “For reason to fall back on,” J.J. observed. “Say somebody got burned, well, there’s an excuse. ‘Oh, it was broke,’ you know. ‘That’s why they burned up, ‘cause they broke the Ten and Eighteen.’ It’s an excuse to fall back on. You’ll never hear them say, you know, so and so burned up, you know, because of the truth. They’re not gonna say, ‘Well this person burned because we fucked up.’ They are gonna say, ‘Ah, they burned because there are all these rules, and they didn’t abide by the rules, therefore he burned.’ They’re not gonna admit they messed up, you know. No, they are gonna find an excuse. That way, they can get their ass out of trouble.’” [Footnote 9]
[Footnote 9] “Supervisors never criticized the Ten and Eighteen in this manner. In fact, the elites whom I observed and interviewed seemed to believe in the importance of these rules just as much as (perhaps more than) seasonal firefighters.”
______________________________________________________________
“Discussion
Firefighters prize competence and control above all other attributes and (contrary to most accounts) view aggression and courage as negative qualities. The distinctive mark of a good firefighter is his ability to know—not to test—his limits. Far from understanding risk as an avenue to a euphoric “adrenaline rush” or a route to acquiring masculine character, firefighters are socialized to view risk as something that can be tamed, safety as something for which they are personally responsible, and death as completely avoidable through competence. Although there is a long tradition of theorizing commonsense (Bourdieu 2000 [1997]; Geertz 1983), there are relatively few actual empirical accounts of the cultivation of collections of commonplaces deeply recognized, albeit rarely specified, that allow organizations to run smoothly and secure worker compliance. I have attempted to offer one here, demonstrating that the Forest Service acclimates firefighters to the perils of their profession by cultivating within them a belief that their job is no more dangerous than the next. When this belief meets its ultimate challenge—the death of a firefighter—the Forest Service reacts by minimizing hazards and exaggerating deviance, thereby allowing firefighters to distance themselves from the dead and the objective dangers of their job.” [Footnote 10]
The author is M. Desmond – Society of Fellows, Harvard University, 78 Mount Auburn Street, Cambridge, MA 02138,
Matthew Desmond is later sourced in the second link above as a John L. Loeb Associate Professor of the Social Sciences; 33 Kirkland Street, Cambridge, MA 02138.
Definitely a good article worth delving into and reading with good sources for future research.
it’s gonna be interesting where this post shakes out
I was looking for information on Fred Schoeffler’s lawsuit against the Forest Services for the (air-to-ground voice recordings and transcripts).
Is there any news on this? Is the lawsuit still in motion or did the “Big Green Pickle” shoot it down?
**
** IN ADDITION TO THE 30 FIREFIGHTERS KILLED IN CHINA, SEVEN
** OTHERS HAD TO “JUMP OFF A CLIFF” TO SURVIVE.
Still not a lot of details emerging from China regarding the recent horrific loss of 30 wildland firefighters all-at-once in Sichuan province, but we do know a LITTLE more.
1. The firefighters were not originally ‘airlifted’ up to the fire. They hiked in.
2. Apparently, the 30 firefighters died not while they were directly engaging the fire… but while they were simply ‘moving’ from one place to another ( just like Yarnell ).
3. In addition to the 30 wildland firefighters that were just killed all-at-once… it turns out that SEVEN other WFs had to “jump off a cliff” in order to survive the same burnover.
The following article about the additional SEVEN firefighters also has a good photo at the top of what the fire looked like from the nearest village, the morning they all ‘hiked up there’.
ECNS Wire
Article Title: Firefighters jump off cliff while battling blaze in Sichuan
Published: 2019-04-02 11:46:55 – By Gu Liping
http://www.ecns.cn/cns-wire/2019-04-02/detail-ifzfwnmy4091148.shtml
From that article…
—————————————————————————————————–
(ECNS) – Seven firefighters were forced to jump off a cliff as fire burst from a burning forest in the Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture, Sichuan Province.
Sources from the Ministry of Emergency Management said 27 firefighters and three locals have been confirmed dead after battling the forest fire, which broke out Saturday at a remote spot in the mountains at an altitude of more than 3,800 meters.
A firefighter told the Beijing News that he was with a crew of seven members when a sudden change in wind direction caused the outburst.
“I couldn’t find words to describe the fierce blaze.”
Firefighters had to jump off a cliff to the other side of a mountain and several people were injured during the escape, he said.
A team sent by the ministry has arrived to coordinate rescue efforts.
—————————————————————————————————
**
** MEMORIAM
Hang on to your hat. The LIST below is heartbreaking.
Here are all the NAMES of the 30 wildland firefighters who just died, listed in AGE order from the youngest to the oldest.
Average age: 23 years old.
5 were younger than 20 years old.
Youngest: 18 years old.
May they ALL Rest In Peace ( and hopefully something has been LEARNED )….
———————————————————————————————–
Wang Fojun
Firefighter.
Born in July, 2000 – Age: 18 years, 8 months.
From Gannan prefecture, Minnan.
Xu Penglong
Firefighter.
Born in March, 2000 – Age: 19 years.
From Linyi in Shandong province.
Zhao Yongyi
Firefighter.
Born in December, 1999 – Age: 19 years, 3 months.
From Linyi in Shandong province.
Zhang Shuai
Firefighter.
Born in June, 1999 – Age: 19 years, 9 months.
From Linyi in Shandong province.
Guo Qi
Firefighter.
Born in June, 1999 – Age: 19 years, 9 months.
From Gannan prefecture, Minnan.
Kang Rongzhen
Firefighter.
Born in March, 1999 – Age: 20 years.
From Linyi in Shandong province.
Meng Zhaoxing
Firefighter.
Born in March, 1999 – Age: 20 years old.
From Jinchang in Gansu province.
Zhang Chengpeng
Firefighter.
Born in February, 1999 – Age: 20 years, 1 month.
From Binzhou in Shandong province.
Chen Yibo
Deputy Squad Leader.
Born in December, 1998 – Age: 20 years, 3 months.
From Qujing in Yunnan province.
Xìng Geng
Firefighter.
Born in October, 1998 – Age: 20 years, 5 months.
From Qujing in Yunnan province.
Li Linghong
Firefighter.
Born in November, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 4 months.
From Chengdu in Sichuan province.
Zhao Yaodong
Firefighter.
Born in October, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 5 months.
From Dingxi in Gansu province.
Zhou Peng
Deputy Squad Leader.
Born in July, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 8 months.
From Yichun in Jiangxi province.
Yang Ruilun
Firefighter.
Born in July, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 8 months.
From Southeast Guizhou province.
Ding Zhenjun
Firefighter.
Born in April, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 11 months.
From Luzhou in Jiangxi province.
Cha Weiguang
Firefighter.
Born in February, 1997 – Age: 22 years, 1 month.
From Dali in Yunnan province.
Cheng Fangwei
Squad Leader.
Born in January, 1997 – Age: 22 years, 2 months.
From Nanchuan district, Chongquing.
Gu Jianhui
Firefighter.
Born in January, 1997 – Age: 22 years, 2 months.
From Ganzhou in Jiangxi province.
Liu Daixu
Platoon Leader.
Born in October, 1996 – Age: 22 years, 5 months.
From Chengdu in Sichuan province.
Dai Jinkai
Firefighter.
Born in September, 1995 – Age: 23 years, 6 months.
From Chengdu in Sichuan province.
Wang Yaofeng
Deputy Squad Leader.
Born in September, 1993 – Age: 25 years, 6 months.
From Xiaochang in Hubei province.
Gao Jiyu ( Jiwei )
Squad Leader.
Born in August, 1993 – Age: 25 years, 7 months.
From Hanzhong in Shaanxi province.
Tang Boying (Li)
Deputy Squad Leader.
Born in July, 1993 – Age: 25 years, 8 months.
From Younchuan district, Chongquing.
Zhang Hao
Squad Leader.
Born in June, 1990 – Age: 28 years, 9 months.
From Xichang in Sichuan province.
Kong Xianglei
Firefighter.
Born in February, 1990 – Age: 29 years, 1 month.
From Honghe in Yunnan province.
Jiang Feifei
Squad Leader.
Born in January, 1990 – Age: 29 years, 2 months.
From Nanchong in Sichuan province.
Zhao Wankun
Instructor.
Born in December, 1980 – Age: 38 years, 3 months.
From Suining in Sichuan province
Local firefighting personnel…
Zouping ( Chuanlin V )
Staff.
Born in June, 1976 – Age:42 years, 9 months.
From Dazhu in Sichuan province.
Yang Dawa
Director of Forestry and Grassland Bureau of Muli County.
Born in August, 1972 – Age: 46 years, 7 months.
From Muli in Sichuan province.
Tuojin
Volunteer
Born in July, 1970 – Age: 48 years, 8 months.
From Muli in Sichuan province.
———————————————————————————————–
Horrors again–a dreaded reminder of the Yarnell deaths, young souls with their lives snuffed out like so many of their fellow wild land fire fighters.
I had been working on my screened porch– I am done with the corners so I can tomorrow do more–Now my strength wanned so am going to shower and mess with this computer this evening. . Did you notice the hundreds of towns in California that are listed and in deadly fire zones–it is a given that many of those homes will burn and more people will die–people are in harms way out there in too many places and truth is the homes will have to go–they best live in trailers. That way they can move their shit ever now and again when the fire danger is high or else let it burn an not worry too much.
The fire thing is a sham for the most part–you have to let the fires burn until they burn out especially when you have manzanita and other overgrowth that can not be stopped when in a wild fire burn.. It is absolute stupidity to risk men under orders where they are young and too naive to balk and when some of their bosses are apt to make stupid moves. Marsh and Steed knew better but went ahead and killed their men and themselves anyway. But that is men trying to make a name for themselves or perhaps on Marsh’s account he was intending to kill the men–all evidence of what he did against all good judgement and protestation by Steed, and that by doing what was known to be a killer act, something he would have known if he was a true hot shot fire fighter points to him as a mass murderer. Of course that is only a possibility and my opinion, but either way he should have went down in the books at minimum charged with negligent homicide of 18 men–Steed with 17 men and perhaps Marsh with suicide and homicide due to wreckless acts that killed his crew..
I know it is hard for some to swallow but the facts are out there proving that all safety rules were knowingly broken–that hundreds of wild land fire witnesses that have visited the area say that it indeed was not the proper proceedure and against good and reasonable action and should have been prevented.
These fires are now in the extreme -and common sense says that it is prudent to let nature take its course because it will anyway. Needless risking of men is a sham and show for the public eye and too much pleasing the public and trying to be the limelight hero is leading to unecessary killing of the young and naive wild land fire fighter.
Followup…
Something else that is now also known about the deadly Sichuan fire…
According to Shenzhen Daily, authorities have now said the CAUSE of the deadly fire was ( just like Yarnell ) a lightning strike.
Same article also reports that the original fire has now RESTARTED in the same area.
Shenzen Daily
Article Title: Forest fire in Sichuan Province starts again
Published: 2019-04-08 08:53
http://www.szdaily.com/content/2019-04/08/content_21605979.htm
From that article..
———————————————————————————–
A FOREST fire that killed 27 firefighters and three locals in Southwest China’s Sichuan Province a week ago started to burn again Saturday afternoon, local authorities said yesterday.
The 30 victims have been approved for recognition as martyrs by the Ministry of Emergency Management and the Sichuan Provincial Government.
Around 5 p.m. Saturday, the fire was found to have started in the northeastern part of the forest, according to the sources with Muli County, Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture.
So far, 350 firefighters are battling the fire and an other 440 locals from neighboring towns have rushed to the site.
The area burnt by the fire is estimated to be 5 to 10 hectares, and is spreading due to windy weather.
The forest fire first broke out at around 6 p.m. March 30 at a remote spot in the mountains in Muli County at an altitude of over 3,700 meters. Local authorities dispatched more than 600 people to put out the blaze. After engulfing about 15 hectares of forest, the blaze was initially extinguished Tuesday.
A lightning strikehas been confirmed as the cause of the fire, local authorities said earlier.
The resurgence of the fire was caused by strong wind in the area, sources said.
———————————————————————————–
WTKTT,
Thanks for posting about this Chinese wildland fire that would likely have otherwise been missed.
Below are some excerpts from an article about their training, experience, and safety attitudes while “human factors” are mentioned as one of the causal factors by one official.
Veteran firefighter Liu Hutang, the former head of Forest Fire Prevention Command in Hainan province, south China, wrote in an essay on Tuesday which went viral on Weibo – China’s microblogging platform – that the government “prioritised fighting fires over the safety of [firefighting] personnel”.
“I have always called for the safety of personnel to be put first when fighting a forest fire disaster,” Liu wrote in the essay, which has now been removed from Weibo by censors. “A tree can regrow after it is burned down, but a person cannot be resurrected after they die.”
“Even though the Sichuan fire was caused by nature, human factors heavily influenced the outcome of the tragedy,” Liu told the South China Morning Post.
“I believe that it is the Chinese system which caused this [loss of life]. In democratic and law-abiding foreign countries, human rights are respected and they put human lives first. But our country puts economic profits in first place and human lives at the bottom.”
Another mainland fire services professional criticised the “culture of bravery” within the industry in an anonymous interview with WeChat media platform The Intellectual on Wednesday, saying it led people to overlook specialist safety training that could help save more lives.
“The biggest problem right now is that the investment is big and the equipment is good, but the training cannot catch up,” the firefighter said, adding that improved equipment may make some firefighters less aware of the risks of entering a fire zone.
The head of the Forestry Bureau in Muli county, where the blaze happened, Yang Renkui, told news site Kankan on Tuesday that all the “professional” firefighters who had been sent there had received “specialist training”. The county’s two firefighting units were set up in 2001.
However, Yang had complained to the more senior forestry bureau in Liangshan prefecture only last year that it was impossible to attract new talent to replace ageing firefighters, and that the equipment and firefighting techniques they used were outdated, Kankan reported.
China has about 130,000 firefighters according to the Ministry of Public Security, but the vast majority are contract workers who often leave the profession due to the high risks, gruelling working conditions and low pay.
The rest were military police officers who served a two or three-year stint with the fire service, Liu said, whereas full-time professional firefighters were employed in foreign countries. Beijing’s municipal government only started hiring full-time government firefighters in 2017, but the roughly 600 employed were just a drop in the ocean in a city with a population of more than 20 million.
Many of the firefighters who died on Sunday came from the military police, with several having only joined two years ago. But one of the commanders of the firefighting unit who died had been a firefighter for 19 years.
“The [firefighters from the armed police] have only just finished training and have not acquired enough experience to do this highly specialised job well before they go somewhere else,” Liu said. “So these firefighters’ experience will never be enough.
( https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3004865/deadly-forest-blaze-china-sparks-debate-over-numbers-and )
Thanks for that article.
When it comes to wildland firefighting, looks like training issues, misplaced priorities, trying to save a buck, “acceptable losses” and trying to keep the whole thing running by marketing the whole “culture of bravery” thing are obviously GLOBAL issues and not just confined to the U.S. of A.
As it turns out… the DEATH TOLL for that Sichuan incident now stands at 31.
Apparently, there was another ( fourth ) ‘local volunteer’ who was killed, and didn’t make it into the official memorial service(s).
Can’t find his name anywhere… and no word yet on whether this additional firefighter was one of the one of the seven who had to jump off the cliff, or whether he was with the main group of 30 that got caught in the burnover.
The Washington Post
Article Title: China says lightning caused forest fire that killed 31
Published: April 5, 2019 ( Via the Associated Press, China division )
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-says-lightning-caused-forest-fire-that-killed-31/2019/04/05/5119cd68-5808-11e9-aa83-504f086bf5d6_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7a25d749454f
From that article…
————————————————————————–
BEIJING — Lighting sparked a forest fire in mountainous western China last month that killed 27 firefighters and FOUR local helpers in one of the country’s deadliest days for first responders, investigators said.
Acting on accounts of eyewitnesses in Sichuan province’s Muli county, investigators located an 18-meter (59-foot) pine tree split by lightning that they identified as the fire’s origin point. They said that after igniting the tree, the fire spread to the thick layer of decomposed plant material on the ground known as humus lying in a remote area at an altitude of around 3,800 meters (12,500 feet.)
————————————————————————–
I did a little Education on the Kern River Ranger District. Use to be The Cannel Meadow RD.
Consolidated with the Hot Springs RD. So it is Huge. Has two Hot Shot Crews (IR). The Fulton HS established in 1964. The Breckenridge HS established 20+ years ago. That means there are several Heavy Eng. and several Prevention Patrols. From what I read Abby was the Batt. Chief or the old in my head Asst. Dist. FMO in charge of the Fire Prevention on the Dist. Another ADFMO would be in charge of the Eng. crews Maybe 6 Eng. And the DFMO would possibly be in charge of the IRHS and the Two Asst.
So a lot of overhead on this Dist. Which may be part of the problem. The Batt. Chiefs would be GS-9s along with the Superintendents.
The Hume Lake Dist. Has the other crew The Horseshoe Meadows HS.
The Old Tule River Ranger Dist. took over the Other Half of the old Hot Springs Dist.
Like I said a lot of changes since I worked there. We got the job done with one hell of a lot less people and grade levels. OLD SCHOOL
Thanks for the info!
I still wish BC Abby Bolt had ‘elaborated’ ( in her resignation letter ) on what she said were obvious “human factors” issues in that district that she was also strongly suggesting could easily lead to “fatalities”… and that no one was willing to do anything about it.
That could mean a lot of things.
Was she ( possibly ) suggesting that one ( or more? ) of those “crews” based in that district are just ( currently ) an “accident looking for a place to happen”?
Could be hard to say what the hiring and qualifications are any more. I know they have gone to a Collage degree for GS9s and above. Fire Qualifications soso.
Like I said it aint what it use to be. If you are a graduate Forester you can apply for Supervisory Fire jobs.
Below are some of the specific references from BC Abby Bolt’s resignation letter that describe that USFS Ranger District as a “nightmare”, and a “dangerous environment”, filled with “hazardous behavior” and “hazardous human factors” that can lead to DEADLY outcomes ( fatalities )… and that she was ( and is still ) in FEAR for the PHYSICAL SAFETY of employees there.
This all seems to be a totally separate issue from whatever “harassment” she has been experiencing on that same “nightmare” USFS district.
ALL of these quotes from her resignation letter seem to be raising another total RED FLAG and suggesting that people are very likely to get KILLED on that Ranger District if someone doesn’t “do something” about the situation there.
But she didn’t elaborate. I wish she would… before people DO get killed.
———————————————————————————-
“Had I not held a deep motivation to hang on and fight, I would have silently promoted up and out of this disastrous work environment long ago at the suggestion of many leaders who reached out to recruit me in order to get away from the continuous HAZARDOUS behavior within this Forest.”
“But is that what you want? Quality individuals to leave DANGEROUS work environments because they know that option is safer than speaking up? ”
“Many HAZARDOUS supervisors are being protected and retained by the mantra, “we must protect the agency” instead of corrected or removed after their behaviors are reported.”
“Many things I have experienced the last few years have been similar to the ‘stuff’ FATALITY investigations are made of.”
“I have tried repeatedly to share my concerns and relate them to HAZARDOUS human factors and actions that play a part in the Swiss Cheese Model which can lead to DEADLY outcomes.”
“I stood up for my employees and their SAFETY.”
“There WERE, and more than likely still ARE, blatant SAFETY issues not being addressed and dismissed altogether.”
“I fear for the PHYSICAL and emotional SAFETY of those working on the Kern River Ranger District.”
This District is an absolute mess, a NIGHTMARE for those who serve and have served under the current regime. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out why people have left or are leaving.”
————————————————————————————
Hey Fred! You will be able to find the next WLF discrimination complaint somewhere in this book! There are HUGE problems with management and there is systemic gender discrimination in tye WLF community, but PBS was way off target🎯 you know…IMHO.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6060450-wild-heat
Oh…and one more thing. We need those Terminal Assholes to stop covering up fire disasters and do honest and professional SAIR’s by honest and professional SAIT’s, but conflating the issues isn’t the answer. IMHO.
OMGosh!!! This is a MUST read!
Wild Heat
(Hot Shots: Men of Fire #1)
by Bella Andre (Goodreads Author)
3.99 · Rating details · 5,481 ratings · 278 reviews
HE’S A HOTSHOT FIREFIGHTER ADDICTED TO RISK. SHE’S THE SULTRY BEAUTY HE NEVER SAW COMING.
Maya Jackson doesn’t sleep with strangers. Until the night grief sent her to the nearest bar and into the arms of the most explosive lover she’s ever had. Six months later, the dedicated arson investigator is coming face to face with him again. Gorgeous, grinning Logan Cain. Her biggest mistake. Now her number-one suspect in a string of deadly wildfires.
Risking his life on a daily basis is what gets Logan up in the morning. As leader of the elite Tahoe Pines Hotshot Crew, he won’t back down from a blaze-or from beautiful, lethal Maya Jackson. She may have seduced him with her tears and her passion, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before Logan lets down his guard again. Until Maya’s life is threatened. With his natural-born hero instincts kicking in, Logan vows to protect the woman sworn to bring him down. And as desire reignites, nothing-not the killer fire or the killer hot on their trail-can douse the flames…. (less)
OMGosh…I found MORE! This book just keeps getting better and better. I have already ordered my copy.
Auntee rates it…⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Who doesn’t love a brave, hunky firefighter? This new series by Bella Andre is all about firefighters, but not the kind we are familiar with who fight structure fires, but the kind who fight wildfires. They’re called wildland firefighters, or Hotshots, and they battle blazes like forest fires continuously off and on for about nine months out of the year, mainly out West. This series sounded promising to me, so I had high expectations, and for the most part, it delivered. Sure, there were some predictable moments (why do the heroines always sleep with the heroes and then think “Whoops, that was a mistake. I don’t want to fall for this guy and risk losing another person I love to a dangerous job–my heart can’t take it!”), and a few moments where I rolled my eyes and said “What?”, but I decided to go with it and have fun. And I did. Of course it helped that the H/H were so hot together that they nearly spontaneously combusted (pun intended)!
Maya Jackson’s an arson investigator for Cal Fire, but she’s in Lake Tahoe, Nevada on personal business. She’s come to pick up the belongings of her younger brother Tony, a firefighter who was killed in an apartment fire and died a hero a few days earlier. Overcome with grief at losing yet another member of her family (her beloved father, a former firefighter, had recently died), Maya feels like she needs some liquid courage to face the sad task ahead of her. So she heads off down the street from her brother’s cottage, looking for a bar or restaurant. Tahoe Pines Bar & Grill–that will do. Darn, it’s closed–the sign says come back at 5 pm. After pounding on the door, a sinfully sexy guy with shoulders out to here takes pity on her and lets her in. After a couple of whiskeys and a few answered questions, Maya is overcome with something (grief, lust?) grabs the guy and plants one on him. Things progress to the point of “Oh God”, what have I done?” and the next thing you know, Maya’s out the door, before Mr. Sexy can get her name or number.
Fast forward six months, and Maya’s back in Tahoe. Still looking for answers into the fire that killed her brother, Maya requests for a chance to work on the Desolation Wilderness wildfire, as it will keep her in the Lake Tahoe area. This fire’s origins look suspicious and may be arson, and all signs are pointing to fireman Logan Cain as the prime suspect. Even though Logan has had an outstanding career as a Hotshot, heroically saving many lives and expensive real estate in his 15 year career, that all means nothing when you’re reported to be in the wrong place at the right time, and an anonymous tipster fingers you as an arsonist. So Maya comes to check this guy out, and watches as he and another firefighter narrowly outrun a rampaging fire to rescue one of their crew members. When Maya gets close enough to interview him about the Desolation Wilderness wildfire, she realizes he’s the same guy she had her way with at the Tahoe Pines Bar & Grill! Can you say conflict of interest?
Well, of course Logan remembers Maya (he thought she was the sexiest woman he’d ever been with), and he’s not through with her. He knows there’s something there, and the feeling is mutual. But Maya’s got a job to do, finds out some rather incriminating stuff in Logan’s past, and since Logan is guilty until proven innocent, he’s suspended from his job. Logan professes his innocence, and Maya wants to believe him, and after talking to his co-workers and hearing nothing but good things about the man he’s become, she starts thinking of other possibilities. Does somebody have it in for Logan? Is someone trying to frame him?
After a couple of attempts on her and Logan’s life, it’s clear that Logan is not the arsonist. Maya and Logan work together to figure out who could be doing this. Working together in close contact heats up the passion between them, and soon Maya and Logan heat up the bedroom. Very erotic, but very confusing for Maya. Does she want to risk her heart on a man who could go to work one day and never return to her? Is she strong enough for that? Can she afford to say those three little words that Logan wants to hear?
This was a sexy read. Maya was a pretty brave, strong woman, and a smart cookie. Thankfully she didn’t keep pursuing Logan as a suspect because even I could see that he was being framed. The author throws out a handful of possible suspects and of course at first I guessed wrong! I’m not sure I was totally sold on the reasons the real arsonist acted the way they did (this is when I said “What?”), and at times I was thinking “this is a little preposterous” during the final showdown between Maya and this wacko, but what the heck, I went with it. And if it brought Maya and Logan together, so much the better.
Of course the best part of the story was the relationship between Maya and Logan, and whenever they were together the pages came alive. Although I wanted to check Maya’s head for rocks a few times when she considered walking away from Logan–this guy was the complete package, and only a fool would give him up!
So to sum up, this was a good beginning to the series (which shows a lot of promise because there’s plenty of hot firefighters who were introduced). A little suspense, a hot romance, and I learned something about wildland firefighters (very brave guys). I’m looking forward to the next installment of this series, titled Hot as Sin A Novel, about Logan’s buddy Sam MacKenzie. 4 stars. (less)
OMGosh…MORE?!!?
Shawna rates it…4 ⭐️ ⭐️⭐️⭐️
I was eagerly anticipating the first book, “Wild Heat”, in the new ‘Hot Shots: Men of Fire’ series about wildland firefighters because a) who doesn’t love a heroic hot-as-sin firefighter?, b) it’s classified as romantic suspense, and c) author Bella Andre writes some fairly steamy sex scenes. The fact that the series focuses on wildland firefighters who battle dangerous forest fires for 6-9 months out of the year is a unique take on the firefighter theme and the main reason why I still liked this book, even though there are lots of plot holes and a lack of realistic romantic development between the H/H. The wildland firefighters, referred to as hotshots, in this series are based in Lake Tahoe and battle the tough wildfires that blaze through the Sierra Nevada Mountains in California.
Arson investigator Maya Jackson comes from a family of firefighters: her father was a wildland firefighter and her brother was a Lake Tahoe firefighter. After enduring the pain of losing them both to the dangerous profession, she’s determined to never lose her heart to a firefighter…cue hunky, brave wildland firefighter, hotshot Logan Caine, who’s resolved to make Maya all his. Maya and Logan first met at a bar and shared a moment of wild, reckless passion where no names were exchanged. Fast forward to six months later and Maya’s in Lake Tahoe to investigate suspicious wildland fire activity, and guess who her primary arson suspect is? Yep, hotshot Logan, and to complicate matters further, neither of them have been able to forget the other and they just can’t seem to deny the passion that burns so hot between them. Maya figures out pretty early on that Logan’s innocent and they team up together to find the real ‘bad guy’, and of course to heat the sheets!
There are several potential arson suspects thrown in to keep the reader guessing, but when the arsonist/villain is finally revealed, I actually flipped the pages a couple of times to be sure I was reading it accurately and rolled my eyes with a “you’ve got to be kidding me right?”! I’m pretty good at suspending belief for the sake of good escapism, but the plot in this one really pushes the limits. The twists-and-turns come out of left field and too many holes are left wide open out in that field; but for the most part, I just tried to let go and enjoy the ride (and yummy Logan Caine).
Of course, there’s the whole ‘will she be able to take the risk on love before it’s too late thing’, but I just didn’t feel a true connection between Maya and Logan. Their relationship progression isn’t very realistic, but at least it’s plenty steamy!
“Wild Heat” has a sexy-as-sin firefighter hero, scorching romance, and is an overall pretty good start to the new ‘Hot Shots’ series, even with its somewhat weak plot. Oh, and let’s not overlook the sizzling stud on the book cover…YOWZA! I’ll definitely still read book 2, “Hot as Sin”, when it comes out later this year. 4 stars. (less)
WOW 😯 😮 😲!!!
Kat rated it…5 ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
In this steamy firefighter romance, arson investigator Maya goes to Lake Tahoe to investigate the fire that killed her brother and has a brief fling with a guy she meets in a bar. Months later, she realizes her fling is Logan, a wilderness firefighter, and the prime suspect in her arson investigation. Logan, being a dedicated firefighter, is royally pissed to be a suspect at all, and especially frustrated when she benches him just when there are fires all over the place to be put out. This had great romance, great pacing, and a good mystery that kept me guessing. Will definitely be reading more by this author. Recommended for romance fans!
OMGosh…LIKEWISE !!!
Mojca rated it…5 ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Maya Jackson’s brother is dead. One day he was there, the next he died in a fire. She comes to Lake Tahoe to clear out his house, but the grief is too strong and she needs a few drinks to help her get through the ordeal. The bar is closed, but the Good Samaritan inside lets her in, pours her a drink, and lets her have her way with his mouth, tongue, fingers, and body…But before things escalate, she bursts into tears and runs off.
Six months later Maya is back in Lake Tahoe investigating the possible arson that started the wildfire blazing near town. Her prime suspect, thanks to two witness reports and an anonymous tip, is the local hotshot (wildfire firefighter) Logan Cain. And she’s just in time to see him and his two buddies escape a blowout. But nothing can prepare her for the shock when he removes his helmet. The hunky firefighter is none other than the hunky stranger she almost did the vertical mambo with in the bar six months ago. The same man she was unable to forget.
The same goes for him. The brief interlude in the bar has ruined Logan for any other woman, so when the object of his fantasies yet again stands before him, he’s more than glad to see her. A little less when she tells him her true purpose in Lake Tahoe, puts him on suspension, and starts digging in his not-so-stellar past.
He’s a firefighter to the core, his men are out there risking their lives, he needs to help put the wildfire out, and all that stands in his way is this sexy woman intent on proving him guilty.
Lucky for him, a few strange incidents prove the exact opposite. And that Maya’s life is also in peril. Now the two must race against time and against the weather to find the true arsonist, live to tell the tale, and put the fire out while they’re at it.
One word — FANTASTIC!
This was a complete impulse buy, because I loved the firefighter theme and the cover, but boy am I glad I did it. I can’t think of a single thing that bothered me much in this novel, which is a rarity indeed.
The premise was great, (almost) perfectly executed, the story flowed flawlessly, the pacing was great, the characters even greater, but what struck me the most was the author’s uncanny ability to tap into my mind and evoke such vivid images with her words.
The contrast between the sunny, relaxing Lake Tahoe brimming with tourists and the raging force of nature the wildfire presented. The chilling effects of literally seeing that wall of fire in my mind’s eye. The similarities between the fire blazing in the forest and between Maya and Cain. The selfless actions of hotshots risking their lives to save others.
Though the story, the characters, the plot, the romance, the passion, the suspense/thriller were great and awesomely-presented, they still seemed to take second place to the true protagonist of this story—the raging inferno of the wildfire. Absolutely amazing.
Yet the hero and heroine held their own against that central character. They both had emotional baggage, yet it didn’t hamper them down (much). And Maya, clearly the reluctant party in this duo, despite her fears and reservation didn’t strike me as annoying. I actually understood where she came from, and shared her heartbreak a little.
While Logan was simply perfect. A true hero, a hotshot with integrity, pride, and passion, and hunky eye-candy to boot. What more could you want in a romance hero?
I didn’t even mind the “quickness” of their romance. It somehow worked with the story, twining seamlessly with everything going on around the two. With the threat of the fire and the deadly peril surrounding them they sort of didn’t have a choice but fall for each other, to prove they’re still alive (as they both thought in one scene).
There are a few reviewers here that are a bit iffy on the subject of the villain. I never got my WTF?! moment when the identity of the baddie was revealed. The two scenes with the villain stalking Logan’s cabin were clues enough for me to pinpoint who might be one of the culprits, I just didn’t think it could be one and the same. So it was still a surprise, though not in the what-the-hell-just-happened kind of way.
And kudos for the villain’s twistiness and props.
This was one hell of a book, a great starter to the series, and a definite keeper. Only 4 days left until the second hotshot story is released. Don’t you love the “preorder” button? *grin* (less)
I’m not going to include the next two because frankly…they get a little SNARKY with their review and only give, “Wild Heat” three ⭐️⭐️⭐️, BITCHES (non gender specific).
But GREAT NEWS! Then there are some more ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ and ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ and then some ⭐️⭐️, one BITCH (non gender specific) gave it ZERO Stars and then on and on and on, so forth and so on, etc.
I’m kind of embarrassed to admit this…but there was a gentle stirring in my loins while I read some of these reviews. I can hardly wait until my copy gets here! I paid for expedited delivery… 🚚 📦, so…
In other words, I think a bunch of women had a bunch of wet dreams some gullible PBS television producer filmed and got camera loving Trey Gowdy who is starved for attention to pontificate about.
We…if you will excuse my use of the Royal We, have enough fuckin’ problems as an industry who should still be in shock and grief over the loss of our hotshot crew have some real problems to solve without bullshit distractions.
So I think everyone should FOCUS!
Although I did not try to to individually decide every case that was presented on the PBS special program.
I am just stating my overall impression of the program.because like I have written, based on my more than 40 years of experience now with all of the wild land firefighting agencies, nothing ever rose to the level of anything I saw on that PBS program.
Yes…systemic discrimination is present in the wild land firefighting industry against women and a lot of other minorities that aren’t White, Hispanic or Native American straight men,
But…I never experienced nor even heard about any of the examples I saw highlighted on the program. And there wasn’t anyone who was more plugged into the system than I was and still am to a great extent.
For example…I worked in an area of the country for 18 years, which was Northern New Mexico, that is quite well known for its discrimination against women, and I never even heard of a case where anyone slapped a woman on her ass and said anything about it or cut off a women’s clothing much less raped a woman on a fire or the job in general.
And if that did happen to any woman, it is or was an anomaly and a criminal matter for the authorities to investigate. And I know the authorities take those issues very seriously because I was an authority for so long and through much more trying times than today.
I think that is BULLSHIT and distracts from the very real and much more insidious problems that are faced by women in today’s workforce because they are so subtle without the deliberately provocative exaggerations while on camera.
And this is getting down even further into the weeds, but…
Although the U.S. Forest Service does not have the federal authority to investigate or recommend prosecutions through the U. S. Attorneys Office for rapes or other sexual assaults on their employees per se, they do have the authority to investigate allegations of any assault on every employee that happens because of their job.
And I know for a fact just his serious the USFS and it’s partner agencies, both the BLM and the NPS, in addition to the U.S. Attorneys Office takes allegations of every assault on their employees.
And in the case where another employee assaults a fellow employee, it would be investigated as both a criminal matter and a personnel matter as part of an internal investigation, in addition to working closely with the local agency to see who has the best charges or case that can be brought against the perpetrator.
And FYI. even if you do want your own rape kit for whatever reason you do, you won’t be able to get one because they don’t just hand those things out like party favors. The responding law enforcement agency is going to take possession of it to maintain the Chain Of Custody because it is evidence of a very serious crime. The hospital will call them even if you don’t.
Even slapping someone on their ass or grabbing them by their pussies as President Trump has bragged he has done to women, is a very serious sexual assault and any supervisor I ever knew of for 40 years would get to do that exactly ONE (1) time and then they wouldn’t have been there to do it a second time. Just you know…FYI.
As Gary has pointed out… there really are TWO big ( connected ) issues here.
1. People learning to REPORT any ( and all ) “assaults” against their person. Right away. No hesitation.
2. People being “retaliated” against if they do.
ANY “Industry” has to make absolutely sure number 2 doesn’t happen within its own “walls”… but if number 1 never happens… that’s when people really do begin to believe they can just “get away with it”.
If everyone was afraid, all the time, of ever reporting criminal acts perpetrated against them… the world would be in utter chaos.
**
** U.S. FOREST SERVICE CHIEF VICKI CHRISTIANSEN IS CONFRONTED BY
** U.S. SENATOR REGARDING BATTALION CHIEF ABBY BOLT’S RESIGNATION
U.S. Forest Service Chief Vicki Christiansen showed up TODAY in front of the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources. It was a pre-scheduled appearance to discuss budget issues… but she was confronted by Chairman ( Sentator ) Lisa Murkowski about Abboy Bolt’s recent resignation letter ( which she held in her hand ).
U.S. Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
Article Title: Murkowski: Shared Stewardship, Active Forest Management Essential for Rural Prosperity
Published: April 9, 2019
https://www.energy.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republican-news?ContentRecord_id=91ACA0DA-44EB-469E-9C77-FB5D4A2EB220
From the article…
—————————————————————————————————–
U.S. Senator. Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska, and chairman of the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, today chaired an oversight hearing to examine the president’s nearly $5.7 billion budget request for the U.S. Forest Service for Fiscal Year (FY) 2020.
Forest Service Chief Vicki Christiansen testified on behalf of the Forest Service.
During the hearing, Murkowski held up a copy of USFS Battalion Chief Abby Bolt’s recent resignation letter and wanted to know more.
Murkowski pressed Christiansen about the urgent need to create a safer, more respectful, and harassment-free workplace environment and asked about continued deterioration within the workforce at the Forest Service.
“We are learning, and we are making corrections at every turn of the way. What we have done in the last year is – I have stood up a work environment and performance office with our most senior executive overseeing this work. This is a best practice in both private and government sectors, so we are committed to results. And it’s a three-pronged approach – first about accountability, [the] second is about prevention, and [the] third is about a sustainable change in behavior in agency culture,” Christiansen said. “When our employees spoke to us, they said we need better skills on how we speak up and early if someone is feeling offended or when they feel there is inappropriate behavior. And we’re improving organizational behavior and culture by having an ethic to stop the silence. If we can’t talk about it, then we can’t fix it.”
“I appreciate what you have detailed. I am concerned that even given the many steps that it is clear you have put in place that when you have a 22-year veteran, ( she holds up her copy of Abby Bolt’s resignation letter ), someone who has achieved a position of battalion chief saying enough is not being done, we still have a failure within YOUR system. We still have a level of harassment and assault that is clearly not acceptable. Making sure that we have good policies in place doesn’t make a difference on the ground unless and until that culture has changed,” Murkowski responded.
An archived video of today’s hearing can be found on the committee’s website.
Click here…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9QpoBou8nQ&feature=youtu.be
to view Murkowski’s questions for Christiansen.
————————————————————————–
Key quote from USFS Chief Christiansen…
“If we can’t talk about it, then we can’t fix it”
Can I get an AMEN?
And that concept applies not just to the USFS harassment culture…
It applies to accident investigations ( and accident prevention ) as well.
Followup…
Bill Gabbert, over at his ‘Wildfire Today’ blog site, actually got a response from Abby Bolt herself regarding today’s Senate hearing and the comments made to the Senators by U.S. Forest Chief Vickie Christiansen.
Abby Bolt herself is now basically confirming that USFS Chief Christiansen “spoketh with forked tongue” to the Senators today… and Christiansen is more “part of the problem” than “part of the solution”.
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Forest Service Chief Christiansen testifies about harassment within the agency
Published: April 9, 2019 – By Bill Gabbert
https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/04/09/forest-service-chief-christiansen-testifies-about-harassment-within-the-agency/
From that article…
———————————————————————————————
After Abby Bolt, the Battalion Chief who resigned, saw a video of the hearing, we asked for her reaction. She wrote:
“I was not aware of the hearing that was scheduled for today until after the Wildfire Today article. As I watched the senator quote my letter it brought tears to my eyes knowing that people at all levels across the nation are truly listening. When I heard Chief Christiansen respond I was overcome with a deep pain in my heart. I have been reaching out to her since she became Chief, offering solutions for our agency including a strong social media effort to inspire and motivate all federal employees to improve their work environment. I actively requested, formally and informally, to not be forced to remain in a proven hostile work environment as I worked through the processes in place meant to deal with harassment and discrimination. Nothing was ever done to improve my toxic work environment and I strongly feel Chief Christiansen could have made a difference. The administrative harassment only continued.
“Since speaking to the media last year and revealing an assault that happened on a fire assignment in more than one interview, no one from my agency officially reached out to me in any way, not even to ensure they weren’t liable or to find out how to prevent anything in the future. They did not seem to care or be interested in learning from the incident. I was worried that a landslide of inquiries would be required and prepared myself for the stress. However, I felt zero support just as I feared I would back when it happened which drove me to push forward in silence. The administrative harassment only continued. Vicki was aware of everything, yet she did nothing, at least not that I was made aware of.”
———————————————————————————————
Here’s an interesting article from the Up In Flames website posting a USFS Battalion Chief’s resignation letter … effectively immediately.
She evidently posted it nationally throughout her Agency last Friday, April 5, 2019.
“Resignation Effective Immediately – Female Firefighter Speaks Up & Walks Out With Pride
Published April 6, 2019 / by Savvy / 19 Comments on Resignation Effective Immediately – Female Firefighter Speaks Up & Walks Out With Pride
“Some may not agree with my style of sharing hard truths to cause a shift. There is no doubt that true friends, mentors and leaders rise to the top of our lives at times like these. I have been warned that I might burn bridges. However, I know this, any bridge I burn because of my efforts to seek improvement or inspire change, leads to a path I would never want to venture down.”
( http://upinflames.org/2019/04/06/resignation-effective-immediately-female-firefighter-speaks-up-walks-out-with-pride/ )
Brave person. Good for her.
I read the entire resignation ( and the many powerful comments already left as well )…. but I’m still a little confused as to EXACTLY what the problem(s) were/are.
She obviously chose not to “name names”… but she was also still pretty short on details… so it’s hard to even know what specific CHANGES she is/was recommending.
It’s obvious ( from her writing ) that the USFS Kern River Ranger District is ( and always has been? ) just a fucked up place to work… but some more details would have been good.
Example ( from her resignation letter )…
“Morally and ethically, I cannot remain with an organization who does not support those who speak up and out, those who challenge the status quo and those who look for opportunities to improve the workplace environment.”
Totally agree… and KUDOS… but that falls far short of knowing what the REAL problem(s) were/are.
Do you know anything more about exactly WHY the USFS just lost such a fine employee?
It’s her vague references to “no concern for safety” that worry me most.
Is she trying to say that the Kern Rive Ranger District is ( and always has been ) just about to KILL people… or that it’s a miracle they haven’t already done so?
Inquiring minds ( and taxpayers who PAY for ALL of this ) WANT to know.
I read and it is very well written by an obviously intelligent, articulate and informed person and I want to be supportive and understanding , I really. My only problem is, I can’t figure out what the hell the problem is except for some really well written but very vague generalities.
My suggestion would be to either go all in, or just stay out. In fir a penny…in foepr a pound. Based on my experience in life, you won’t be forgiven even if you just put your big tie in, so don’t do that, or if you do…take the plunge.
In addition, I have been doing research on the effects of smoke inhalation on wild land firefighters and I couldn’t have been more wrong about the need to bring the issue to the attention both the NWCG and MEDC. They have studied the issue to death in the past and it appears to me they have reached a determination of what needs to be done to protect the health of wild land firefighters….absolutely nothing.
Their overall answer is really quite brilliant and I just wish I would have thought of their solution myself decades ago when I was experiencing my own problems with smoke inhalation. They have essentially collectively decided that if smoke bothers you…you just shouldn’t breathe it.
And in fact you should take your bodies negative reaction to smoke as a warning sign that something is wrong and you should change locations to an area where the smoke doesn’t bother you. I guess it’s kind of like switching where you are standing or sitting around a campfire based on the wind direction. Just move to the other side of the fire so the smoke is being blown away from you…not at you.
The beauty and simplicity of their revelation is nothing short of pure genius. I stand in awe of all of the brilliant staff civil servants who came up with such plan. My only problem is…I have run out of adjectives to adequately describe exactly what I think of both them and their ideas, so I am going to directly quote the recognized Subject Matter Experts (SME) on the topic starting with Dick Magan from MEDC whose name I am familiar with second only to Dr. Ted Putnam.
“I think basically if an individual firefighter is sensitive to the conditions that they’re experiencing, running nose, watering eyes, it looks smokey, then it’s probably not a place you want to be-take the common sense step of backing off a few feet, getting into a different location … using the natural conditions that are out there to put yourself in a better environment.”
Dick Mangan, MTDC
The next SME I am going to directly quote is the expert who lead the study by MEDC for the NWCG…Dr. Brian Skarkey.
“To reduce the risk of exposure I would first of all move forward to implement the recommendations of our conference. If we do that and if we monitor to see how we’re doing, I have a feeling that we will have largely removed most of the risk. If not, then we need to take additional steps and those additional steps could include the use of respirators. It could include totally different ways of fighting fire.”
Brian Sharkey
And finally, here are some very wise words and conclusions from all of the other SME’s and study participants with their own conclusions and helpful hints.
“What we found was for the average exposure assumptions, in other words most of the people, there doesn’t seem to be a problem.”
Tom Booze
“The firefighters have a health risk at both wildfires and prescribed fires. It is a risk that probably is less than some of the other risks that they have out on the fireline, such as falling snags and rolling rocks and getting hurt with their tools that they’re using, and also just driving on very narrow roads and hiking in very steep and rugged terrain.”
Roger Ottmar
Dr. Brian Sharkey of MTDC was one of many looking into the health effects of exposure to smoke. Short-term exposures cause eye irritation, coughs, and sore throats. Lung function tests show a small but significant decline in lung function that reverses when the person is no longer exposed. So the short-term effects tend to be transitory and reversible.
“Given the time to recover, the human lung has a remarkable ability to cleanse itself.”
Brian Sharkey
Tiny hairlike projections called cilia sweep particles out of respiratory passages. Days or weeks of exposure may suppress ciliary action and immune function, and set the stage for particle buildup and bronchitis. Those with asthma and allergies may experience more problems with exposure. Researchers recommended a study to determine the long-term effects of exposure to smoke.
Dr. Tom Booze, a toxicologist with Radian International, conducted a risk assessment to estimate the long-term health effects of exposure. He looked at two exposure assumptions, an average exposure and a worst case scenario that assumed very high exposure levels for 9.4 hours a day, 97 days a year for 25 years-a condition that exceeds any known exposure. Under this worst case scenario, the risk assessment showed some increase in cancer risk, and the noncancer health risks indicated the likelihood of respiratory irritation.
“What we found was for the average exposure assumptions, in other words most of the people, there doesn’t seem to be a problem.”
Tom Booze
Recommendations From Project Participants “Probably the most important thing that can be done by managers is to plan ahead, to organize their fire-their managed fires especially-in a way that keeps firefighters out of high smoke concentration areas.”
Darold Ward
“I think the most important recommendation to reduce the risk of firefighters to smoke exposure is awareness training. . . There are ways in which they can reduce that exposure level and thus reduce their risk.”
Roger Ottmar
“I’d recommend that you . . . monitor your exposure in some way, . . listen to the alarm of your senses that are telling you this smoke is uncomfortable and avoid it.”
Tim Reinhardt
“A principle of toxicology is reduce your exposure to reduce your risk. So the more steps you take to cut back on smoke exposure, dust exposure, et cetera, the more you’re doing to reduce your risk of adverse health effects.”
Tom Booze
“I think we can do some real easily implementable things to reduce the incidence of upper respiratory infection in firefighters. I don’t think they’d have to cost an awful lot of money. I think we need to emphasize the importance of good physical fitness … good personal hygiene, and healthy behaviors.”
Mark Vore, USDA FS
Reply to Gary Olson on April 7, 2019 at 10:52 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I read and it is very well written by an obviously intelligent,
>> articulate and informed person and I want to be supportive and
>> understanding, I really do.
>>
>> My only problem is, I can’t figure out what the hell the problem
>> is except for some really well written but very vague generalities.
My thoughts exactly.
Gets my attention ( as a concerned citizen and taxpayer )… but then doesn’t tell me what I need to know.
Very well written… but it’s what is MISSING that I have a problem with.
Spell it out, fer chrissakes.
Perfect time for a full-monty “drop the mike” moment… but she didn’t do it.
But then… everything ELSE you just wrote above fits in EXACTLY with some of what she just had to say about the USFS…
From Abby L. Bolt’s USFS resignation letter at…
—————————————————————————–
Many things I have experienced the last few years havebeen similar to the “stuff” fatality investigations are made of. I have tried repeatedly to share my concerns and relate them to hazardous human factors and actions that play a part in the SwissCheese Model which can lead to deadly outcomes.
The sad part is, the agency ( USFS ) made my decision to resign an easy realization. The agency ( USFS ) has no true desire to implement effective change to the workplace environment. Since the oversight committee hearings in 2016, THREE years ago, there has not been any meaningful change other than the standard reaction of more systematic training.”
———————————————————————————-
The agency ( USFS ) has no true desire to implement effective change to the workplace environment.
And ( as we all know ) that includes making changes that might stop KILLING employees.
Nothing to see. Move along.
I think a lot of her letter dealt with Treatment of women on the district.
She talked about getting the union involved and hiring a Lawyer.
Also the inability to deal with Fire accidents cause and effects.
I will say I worked on the Kernville Ranger District the First 5 1/2 years 1962 to 1967 of my carrier. It was a great place to work then but we also had no women in fire positions. That did not start until the early 70s.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 8, 2019 at 7:39 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I think a lot of her letter dealt with Treatment of women
>> on the district. She talked about getting the union
>> involved and hiring a Lawyer. Also the inability to deal
>> with Fire accidents cause and effects.
Maybe so… but for whatever reasons… she chose not to make that clear and/or make it the CENTRAL issue of her resignation letter.
Some of what she is attempting to reveal seems absolutely non-gender specific.
The stuff about her trying to prevent what appeared to be OBVIOUS ‘human factors’ issues that could lead to FATALITIES… and even THOSE concerns were being ignored… concerns me most.
Sounds like she was doing exactly what she SHOULD have been doing in that regard… but then not only was IGNORED but then both she and her FAMILY started receiving THREATS.
That’s a big deal ( in ANY industry or workplace environment ).
Could it be that she is trying to describe another potential “Eric Marsh” situation… where someone is in a position of authority who is not necessarily qualified to be there? Someone who might be just an “accident waiting to happen”… but no one wants to do anything about it?
It’s the kind of resignation letter that really should involve ‘followup’… and an investigation of the more serious claims.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 8, 2019 at 7:39 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I think a lot of her letter dealt with Treatment of
>> women on the district.
As it turns out… not just her own district and her own personal experiences. Abby Bolt had become a ‘spokeswoman’ for all women trying to have a career in Forestry.
Just Goggle “Abby Bolt Forest Service” and you start to get the whole picture.
PBS News did a VIDEO FEATURE segment on Rape, harassment and retaliation just last year, and Abby Bolt was one of the 34 women in 13 different states who wasn’t afraid to “tell her story”.
The report details the absolutely-proven “Culture of Retaliation” that STILL exists in the U.S. Forestry Service if ANYONE ever reports any sexual misconduct.
PBS News Hour
Article Title: Rape, harassment and retaliation in the U.S. Forest Service: Women firefighters tell their stories.
Published: March 1, 2018 – By William Brangham
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/rape-harassment-and-retaliation-in-the-u-s-forest-service-women-firefighters-tell-their-stories
NOTE: This is a VIDEO segment that aired just last year on PBS.
The text below is from their own transcript of the video.
Battalion Chief Abby Bolt was interviewed on-camera at the +3:50 mark.
From the VIDEO…
————————————————————————
Women in the U.S. Forest Service aren’t just fighting fires; some are fighting sexual misconduct in the most remote parts of the country. In an exclusive PBS NewsHour investigation, 34 women in 13 states told their stories of rape, harassment, gender discrimination and the retaliation that followed after they reported abuse.
William Brangham reports.
+3:50
William Brangham:
Abby Bolt is a battalion chief in California’s Sequoia National Forest. When she first got into firefighting 20 years ago, she knew it was a tough and macho environment. She didn’t complain about the pornography that were left on her truck seat or the physical hazing. And later, as she rose through the ranks of the Forest Service, she saw other women speak up, and suffer for it.
Abby Bolt:
Watching somebody that would file a complaint, or make a complaint, immediately became the problem. And we have the term that girl or those girls.
William Brangham:
Bolt says, six years ago, she had a harrowing experience, where this culture of not complaining came back to haunt her. In 2012, while she was fighting a fire in Colorado along with multiple other agencies, another firefighter, not from the Forest Service, raped her.
Abby Bolt:
It was toward the end of the assignment. And I just don’t think I can say the word, but — I mean, I can just say, I mean, we know what sexually assaulted means, right? So, I was — I woke up the next day covered in bruises. And I was just like, this is not happening. I’m not this person. I’m not this girl.
William Brangham:
She got a rape kit and filed a police report, but she didn’t end up pressing charges, and she didn’t report it to the Forest Service.
Abby Bolt:
I could just see this whole process going down, and the only person that was going to lose everything in their world was going to be me and my family. They were going to — I just — I have seen how it goes down. The person that complains becomes the trash.
William Brangham:
Bolt worries that speaking out now means her retaliation is only going to get worse, but she wants other women to know they’re not alone.
Abby Bolt:
There are so many women out there that are so afraid. You know, I have talked to them. And I have said, you need to speak up. And I’ll hear, like, “I’m so close to retirement Abby, I can’t,” or, “I have come this far,” or, “I have to support my family, and I can’t do that.” And if I lose my job now, but it helps me get it a little bit better, I’m at the point where I stand up for what’s right. And if that — at this point, if that’s what it means, then that’s what it means.
———————————————————————
But even with all that… Abby Bolt still did NOT make that the central issue of her resignation. She still said it had a lot to do with UNSAFE behavior and potential fatalities… but being unable to make any changes even in THAT area.
OMGosh…on my worst days in the USFS I never encountered or even heard about anything like that story, I am dumbfounded. I must have led a sheltered existence? My experience as I keep saying was pretty narrow, but again…OMGosh!
Story Time,
This is the very worst sexual harassment incident I was ever experienced or was even aware of after working on three National Forests in two states for 15 years, four of them at the Forest level and in law enforcement where we hear about a lot of things that happened and I had women on my Hotshots crew’s for 5 years.
When I was with the Santa Fe Hotshots, we were down on the Tonto National Forest, Tonto Basin Ranger District for a lightning bust staged at Roosevelt Lake in the dessert where it was hot, really hot in the middle of summer.
And the way hotshot crews are normally used for lighting busts, is to preposition them at a helibases and then send them out in small modules usually consisting of usually only three crewmembers, because that is how many that fit on most Hughes 500’s or Bell Ranger helicopters, but it could be as many as a full squad in several loads.
And just sitting on the bus for hours on end in the mind numbing heat just waiting to go out can really take a toll on people and their morale while making them a little crazy.
So one of the women on our crew was walking down the aisle of the bus and a male crew member says, “Do you know you are really sweating a lot right around your nipples?” (She was braless).
Which was really a stupid, pointless and outrageous thing to say that was inexcusable. I wasn’t on the bus when the comment was made, but she immediately found me and said she wanted to file a complaint for sexual harassment.
I went ballistic and ordered the crewman to both apologize to her and again in front of the entire crew who had been present when the comment was made. She accepted his apology and the matter was closed.
Now…that isn’t a good story, but it’s one hell of a long ways from rape or even leaving a pornographic book on a females seat. I don’t know if the Playboy and Penthouse (nothing worse than those) magazines disappeared or not, but they weren’t left laying around for just everyone to see when there were women on our crew.
I’m telling you, those stories are not the USFS that I knew or the norm. RAPE! OMGosh! Serious hazing and sexual harassment, never. Everybody got teased, but usually not if they had a temper or weren’t into joking around with others. And most women at that time could really dish it out and they had mutual respect.
I already told the worst sexual harassment experience I ever had. It was when two young women came into the open style military shower to shower with me. And what I didn’t like was that the water was kinda cold, so…
I don’t doubt anything Abby Bolt said, and she has to be one tough person, I’m just saying that wasn’t the USFS I knew. It sounds yeti me like they need to clean house on that shit hole, hillbilly Ranger District for starters.
Whoops, I missed a chance to you know…post a link.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ldUZvxjKMGs
And inbred Ranger District, because based on my experience, those kind of problems can only fester on inbred districts where most if not all of the employees come from a small local, isolated population where everybody is related to everybody else and not many people move in or out.
A few “directed reassignments” to the Alaska Fire Service would knock that shit off in a New York Minute. I know how to do it and…I’m available.
Did you actually watch the PBS video at the link above?
Looks like the USFS has really stepped up its game since you were there.
Listen to the woman firefighter telling Senator Trey Gowdy how her USFS supervisor cornered her, then cut her shirt and bra open with a letter opener… and even though she reported it… nothing happened.
That’s some serious shit ( as Senator Trey Gowdy himself said ).
No, I didn’t watch it, I was just reacting to the information of the rape here and the other sexual harassment which just stunned me with that alone. And yes, it sounds like things in some places are crazy out of control, I guess I shouldn’t say, I can’t believe it, but I am dumbfounded nevertheless.
And I do know that line or management, will do some outrageous things to protect each other, but it’s usually covering up the fact the head ranger had the fire crew cutting his firewood, building his house with supplies he ordered for the district, running a firesupply business on the side, or taking bottles of good booze from the timber contractor, those kind of things. But rape and sexual assault…that’s just plain crazy behavior that is…bad, really bad to be Captain Obvious.
The USFS has an IG if their special agents are kept out somehow and there is always local law enforcement although in thes small towns, maybe the USFS has some extra push….but THAT? CRAZY!
Oh…and I guess I had better watch the video at the link. I was part of the end of the old USFS, they were far from perfect, but the culture was more like the USFS Ranger who was the support actor for Lassie on that old TV show.
At the remote districts, and most district offices were remote, or in very small towns, it really could be idyllic life for someone who wanted to live out in the forest and take care of Mother Nature.
You know…if by taking care of Mother Nature I mean cutting most of the big trees down so people could have cheap lumber to fuel the building boom that started after WWII and has never stopped for very long. 🙂
But…they really did try their best to find a balance with their congressional mandated “Multiple Use Policies.”.
Well…I watched the program, and even though I don’t have a problem criticizing everyone and every agency for everything I don’t like or didn’t like, I just never experienced that kind of behavior or even heard about it.
But like I have written, my experiences on fires that weren’t in office settings or at least field offices, was limited to being a hotshot.
And in those situations, we were all together all of the time without exception and except for the one incident I have described here, alcohol or any “partying” was strictly forbidden until we got home and we were off duty and on days off. Except together on Saturday night at the Mormon Lake Lodge. Santa Fe Fire debriefing were limited almost exclusively to the first night after returning from a fire, or the first night of our days off together as a crew.
I just can’t relate to the stories contained in the PBS program. I believe them, I just can’t relate them to any experience I had or was ever told about.
Although retiring shouldn’t have anything to do with prosecuting someone for sexual assault. That would be the responsibility of the Sherriff’s Office or the local police department if it happened at an office or duty station in town.
And I don’t want to start picking at everything I saw as inconsistencies in some of the stories, but I did see some. But here is one example.
The one young lady said she heard from Washington Forests but not Oregon Forests. There isn’t any organizational structure that connects Oregon Forests to each other that doesn’t also link all of the Washington Forests together with the Oregon Forests. Washington and Oregon make up Region 6 and the Forests in both states are managed jointly by the same personnel office, and fire management team, in addition to everything else from one central regional office.
The USFS doesn’t look at Arizona and New Mexico as being separate states, it looks at both of them as they are Region 3, which is a single management and administrative unit.
So…it just doesn’t make sense to me that someone who is blackballed in Oregon, wouldn’t also be blackballed in Washington State.
For one thing, like I have said, there is only 2 degrees of separation from almost the entire National Interagency Fire Community, there would only be 1 degree of separation between USFS FIRE in Washington and Oregon,
So…I would just like to know more…that’s all.
And because of the procedures that have to be followed by federal law for every termination, there just isn’t anyway to fire someone before they can either quit or retire. And once they are no longer an employee, an agency can’t take disciplinary action against a former employee.
In addition, if someone has put in the time and havemet the necessary standards to be able to retire, an agency can’t deny that right to them based on the fact they have been accused of a crime.
As a matter of fact, their retirement isn’t even linked to an employee being convicted of a crime. Our laws don’t include denying anyone their retirement benefits as part of their statutory punishment for committing a crime.
File the complaint, persecute and convict him, send him to prison, and then they can electronically send his retirement check to the prison commissary so he can buy candy bars and noodle soup.
And that is just an example of what I consider to be a red herring with misleading video with what had to have been selective editing and dusengenuous reporting by PBS or the USFS spokesperson is a complete idiot and didn’t understand herself how our laws work herself.
And this is getting even further down into the weeds, but as I have written before, our founding fathers were afraid of a national police force, so federal police powers and laws are very selective.
In general, rape and sexual assault is not a federal crime. It wouldn’t have been within the jurisdiction of any federal agency, including the USFS when Abby Bolt was rap d while on a fire, either by another agency employee or even a USFS employee.
That would have been exclusively within the authority and jurisdiction of that county’s Sherriffs Office. The USFS could have and would have assisted, but even the prosecution and incarceration would have been by the state (or county attorney) and then off to state prison for the offender.
There are many National Parks that have Exclusive Jurisdiction by law where they would investigate all crimes, but all USFS land has Concurrent Jurisdiction.
And I have never worked anywhere where any woman would be blamed for being raped while on a fire or off a fire, especially in her case where she was bruised and had a rape kit, nothing about her decision not to report that to the Sheriffs Office made any sense to me.
There must really be some bad USFS places to work, and apparently the Sequoia National Forest is one of them.
I can assure you if I, or any USFS LE person I have ever known or worked with would have taken immediate action to do everything we could to help make her situation as good as it could possibly be if I (or those I worked with) would have been working as security officers on that fire. The USFS does provide uniformed and fully armed LE officers as fire camp security who are always close by.
As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, I am very disappointed that Abby Bolt didn’t report that rape. It is highly unlikely that anyone who would be so brazen as to rape a firefighter on a fire, would not have raped many other women before and having gotten away with it in her case, it is highly unlikely that he won’t rape again.
And on top of that, there are many other considerations such as the transmission of communicable disease that are sexually transmitted and any guy like that would have been a walking time bomb for very serious and potentially even deadly disease.s, some of which that are incurable.
That story is shocking on so many levels I am obviously having a hard time wrapping my mind around it. There needed to be some serious medical followup in her case. The OWCP would own all of that on behalf of the USFS and the American people. It’s not like getting date raped after a night out on the town. The f derail government has some serious responsibility for your problem.
And I hate to take it to this level because it may sound absurd, but it would have been very, very, important for her to have filed a CA-1 (Report Of a traumatic injury) with her supervisor in case she had contracted some kind of dehabilitating, incurable or even deadly sexually transmitted disease and God forbid an unwanted pregnancy.
So…if any other women out there ever get raped on a fire or on the job with the federal government, please, please, please report it immediately.
In other words, the federal government OWNED Abby Bolt’s rape and everything that came with it in the aftermath, Any attorney could have gotten her a huge monetary settlement. She probably could have gotten one WITHOUT an attorney. That’s the kind of case where the Solicitor comes in with a blank check and let’s you fill in the amount..
Don’t let them off the hook. Make them pay. The USFS was RESPONSIBLE for Ms. Bolt’s safety and security while she was on that fire (or any other job) but especially a fire assignment. That was just crazy.
Okay, I am going to have to let this go. But from every experience I have ever had on a fire, especially one that would have obviously been a project fire because it was out of state and had multiple agencies represented on it, the fires and the personnel on them are so tightly controlled a firefighter can’t go to the First Aid tent and get a band aid much less take off and find their own transportation to the nearest hospital to get their own rape kit without their supervisor being aware of it.
I have to control my OCD now and just let all of this go because the stories in that PBS Special are driving me crazy with the way they were both told by the victims and presented by PBS.
I’m not saying they were bullshit, I’m just saying they were intended for an audience who didnt have a clue about either how the system is supposed to operate and how in fact it does operate based on my 22 years of land management based law enforcement in addition to my time as a Deputy Sheriff. We lived to kick ass on cases, especially cases like those. That’s why we did the job.
USFS LEO #1, Anything happen last night that I need to know about?
USFS LEO # 2, Not really…but I heard some woman got raped either while she was asleep and then she woke up with bruises, or maybe she was raped but then fell asleep and woke up later with the bruises?I don’t know because I didn’t investigate it because I was too busy standing here and making sure fire crews didn’t steal these cases of candy bars or smoke dope in the shitter.
USFS LEO #1, No shit, maybe she was drugged? How come she didn’t tell you or any of the rest of the team of security officers in that were patrolling fire camp?
USFS LEO # 2, Don’t know? And maybe…that would be the only thing that makes any sense but I guess we’ll never know if she was drugged or not?
USFS LEO #1, How come we’ll never know?
USFS LEO #2, Well…apparently she snuck away from her crew or the other people she came out here with, found a vehicle with the keys left in it, talked her way part our Check Point at the entrance to fire camp, and then her way past the Check Point run by the State Police and Sheriffs Office to keep people out of this area, drove herself to the nearest town, checked herself into a hospital and explained to them that she had been raped and she wanted a rape exam done by the attending ER physician.
USFS LEO #1, That sounds crazy. Didnt the ER staff notify the Sherriffs Office immediately according to state law? You know they have laws to protect people from STD’s and AIDS spread by rapists.
USFS LEO #2, Yes…they followed state law and their required protocols, and she filed a complaint, but she wasn’t really interested in pursuing it. She just wanted a rape kit done with semen samples and trace evidence collected because she wanted her own rape kit.
USFS LEO #1, What for?
USFS LEO #2, I don’t know…she didn’t tell anyone else.
USFS LEO #1, What happened then?
USFS LEO #2, She just drove back to fire camp, talked her way past both check points again, put the stolen vehicle back where she found it, rejoined her crew and went out on the line without telling anyone else because she didn’t want to be known as one of “those girls.”
USFS LEO #1, That doesn’t make any sense. If some terminal asshole was so crazy to go as far to rape a woman on a fire assignment, there is zero chance he hasn’t raped other women before and will do so again because he is growing increasingly daring and violent in addition to the fact he is a serial rapist and a walking Petri dish of communicable sexually transmitted diesese, some of which are incurable. He left this woman dazed and injured…maybe he will kill the next one?
USFS LEO #2. Yeah I know…too bad the rape victim wasn’t willing to support other women who have been victimized in the past and will be victimized in the future and we could have given that asshole 3 from the ring and 9 from the sky and made him do the funky chicken? Just kidding…we don’t do THAT stuff anymore because everybody has a video cam nowadays, Hahaha!
USFS LEO #1, I’m pickin’ up what you’re puttin’ down…too bad! Hahaha, nope, we don’t do THAT! Hahaha
USFS LEO 2#, Well…maybe in a few years she will recount her story to PBS way past time it will help anyone and stop a serial rapist who assaults women, but her televised story will successfully spread vague generalities that are inconsistent and implausible while casting a cloud of suspicion over an the entire wild land firefighting community on national television anchored by a PBS “journalist” who doesn’t know what a follow up question is. Well…keep on close eye on these candy bars and have a good shift.
USFS LEO #1, Copy that 5×5. Oh…by the way, do you believe her story?
USFS LEO #2, Of course I believe it, I’m part of the #MeToo movement.
USFS LEO #1, Yeah…#MeToo!
Whoops, l meant to write,
“Three from the ring, nine from the sky, knee drop him and make him do the funky chicken.”
I was trained by a rural Sherriffs Office in northern Arizona in the mid 1970.’s. Those boys and Flag PD knew how to play hard ball.
Oh…and one more thing. Maybe Shit-For-Brains 4 year lead prosecutor Trey Gowdy who found nothing regarding Benghazigate has seen government letter openers, or any letter opener for that matter that will cut open a woman’s blouse and cut off her bra, but I never have,
I’m pretty sure that would take a knife, and not just any knife if the woman is squirming around…a pretty fuckin’ sharp knife.
There might be some really good reasons why she didn’t try sell that story to the local police investigators and saved it for Trey.
Does anyone know what the odds of are of cutting the clothes off a woman who is squirming around and freaking out with a sharp knife and NOT cutting her bad in multiple places while you a accidently cut yourself at the same time and leave blood EVERYWHERE.?
I don’t know either…but I’m pretty sure it’s ZERO.
Although Trey Gowdy did confirm what we already knew. U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens died an American Hero and fool for playing Russian Roulette with a revolver that had five rounds loaded in a six round cylinder.
The only problem is…his poor decision making for his safety cost the lives of three other American Heroes at the same time.
I think her problem is probably rooted in the three things the U.S. Forest Service values more than anything else.
1. Tradition
2. Tradition
3. Tradition
And women never played a traditional role open the U.S. Forest Service and don’t even mention anyone from the LBG and T unless they are closet L type, maybe, some places, some time, or the system will go in to apoplectic stroke.
Based on my somewhat outdated experience with the USFS, they change at about the same rate molasses flows downhill at high elevations in the winter time. The USFS makes the U.S. Military look like a radical, free thinking, progressive, forward looking agent for change.
These are things I have written before on this thread. And of course just like the military is famous for, the USFS is always preparing to fight the last fire, not the next one. The difference between the two institutions is that our military has recognized that flaw and have been working for decades to do better.
I have also written on this thread that is why the Yarnell Hill Fire Team couldn’t wrap their heads around the catastrophic disaster they found themselves in the middle of and they were unable to change tactics or even how they dealt with an exponentially developing situation. They still thought, acted, and proceeded with their LINEAR tactics, thinking, and reactions.
They were still coloring inside the lines while they painted there picture by the numbers sequentially just like the smokejumper does his count and I even think the unfolding disaster made their brains actually lock up just like his does in the cartoon, 1…2…3…4…4…4…4…
The Yarnell Hill Fire was throwing paint all over their canvas just like Maude in the Big Lebowski and they just couldn’t cope with what they were witnessing because Fire Generalship had trained them to fail by not preparing fior the day that’s coming for all of us and has already arrived for many. “We haven’t seen FIRE do that before!”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FuMbc1Q2OQ4
You can all see for yourselves how WILD FIRES are traditionally fought,
1. Local fire team loses it and transitions to a
2. Type short 2 team in the case of Arizona Forestry, by cannabalizing critical line positioned like the crew boss of the GMIHC and then they lose it and transition to
3. And I think that was as far as they got and the war was over…right? The team they were trying to bring was a Type 1 but they never made it right…WTKTT?
Or how did that prigression go, my mind is a little fuzzy right now?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c7cZeGhltck
They were always a day late and a dollar short, I remember that much.
Actually, I m pretty sure I know why Abby Bolt’s letter was as vague and as general as it was, she is afraid of being sued. She did mention a family ranch and Abby probably owns a house there in town. My freedom to spout off comes at a price. It’s not more than I can afford, or I’m willing to pay, but it does cost. Nothing comes free.
You left out the part where Roy Hall showed up in Yarnell Sunday morning and knew right away that the bullshit Type 2 SHORT team that had been thrown together the night before with retirees and double-dippers just wasn’t going to cut the cake. The fire had NOT ‘laid down’ overnight and was now a much bigger deal than the night before when all they were interested in doing was saving money with the least possible ramp-up.
So from the moment Roy Hall hit the deck… he was only concerned with “ramping up”… and even the moment when Todd Abel and Eric Marsh ‘suggested’ to him that GM hike into the boondock just to ‘anchor’ the fire ( like Darrell Willis had told Marsh to do before he ever got there )… Roy Hall was already so distracted that he ‘approved’ that eventually-tragic assignment with just a basic “Yea… yea… right…whatever you think” wave-off.
Even before things officially transitioned to the Type 2 SHORT ( circa 10:30 AM ), Roy Hall had ALREADY been on the phone to do an end-run around the whole ROSS ordering system and start cannibalizing Bea Day’s REAL Type 2 team for the missing Safety Officers, DIVS, etc.
So they all started coming to Yarnell, just because Roy Hall was crying for help. Marty Cole didn’t. He wouldn’t even START to head for Yarnell until he was SURE his order was real and he would get PAID. He waited for ’email confirmations’ before heading to Yarnell that day. That’s why he never arrived to be one of the 2 Safety Officers until just before the deployment.
That is also why we got the ‘3 Prescotteers’ from the USFS Prescott National Fores. Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd. They showed up with their little trailers and ATVs all ready to be ‘commandeeros’… but only on arriving discovered they were obsolete because the whole deal was going up to a Type 1 and they weren’t going to get paid.
But they ‘jumped in’ anyway… acting like they were actively assigned to the fire and not just ‘freelancing’.
And the ultimate irony is that these 3 Federal FFs ended up being the ones tearing around looking for the ‘missing’ GM Hotshots and 3 of the first 5 firefighters to actually see the horror out at the deployment site.
And then USFS sycophant Mike Dudley proceeded to try and make it look like those FEDERAL FFs were never even there that day.
It was a MESS.
As Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby said in that email recently obtained by Joy Collura…
“The human factors were OFF THE CHARTS that day”.
And then ( sure enough ) people DIED.
I do know that the Kern River Dist has changed a lot.
They now have 2 Large 500 Gal Eng. with crews and a Hot Shot Crew in Kern Ville. I believe they have 2 other Eng. out on the Forest/Dist. as well plus 5 Fire prevention.
When I was there 1 300 gal Eng. 3 truck patrol and 2 back country horse patrols. Big change over the years.
Women sued the FS Calif. Reg. in the early 80s over job discrimination and were hired in many fire jobs over men.
So there is ( now ) a Type 1 Hotshot crew operating out of this District?
I wonder if any of the ‘human factors that might lead to fatalities’ issues she is trying to describe involve THAT crew, in any way?
Yes they have had a type one crew for close to 20 years in Kernville. They also have a Helitack crew.
Forgot to add the Sequoia has 3 type 1 Crews..
I was in the USFS during that period and that consent decree was adopted by the USFS nationwide including in Region 3 and it just made things worse in most cases for women because although some did get hired into jobs they shouldn’t have, it ended up tainting every woman as unqualified and undeserving to be there and just made the discrimination against women much worse.
I doubt if you could find an employee who seems to me to be better qualified and more dedicated than Abby Bolt seems to be by every objective measure and they managed to drive her out of a job she loved and was good at after 22 years in 2019. That is…I’m out of words.
I loved the USFS, but I didn’t love or even like many of the things they did. I mean, I have two daughters, a sister and s mother, what man should be for discrimination against women that we all know still exists everywhere in our society?
Oh…and one more thing. I also have two granddaughters that I know are going to be discriminated against as well.
I sure do wish you would write THE definitive book for the ages about the Yanell Hill Fire Disaster.
Meaning HAL 9000, who has the computer processor for a brain.
I did read her comments–very well done–although you have the feeling that the powers that are the problem will continue. Once you get up the government ladder with enough rungs near the top, the more secure your job is and the more you can make life miserable for those below.
Yes the effects of smoke on the individual are many. Carbon that remains in the lungs absorbs radon and why smokers are greatly susceptible to .cancer. But little is said about the lung killing effects of the ammonium nor the chemical reactions that create cancer along with the smoke itself. Then add in numerous chemicals hidden by trade secret and you have the management in FS that love secrets. Keep your mouth shut unless you say something good about them–they believe themselves beyond reproach.
Certainly the asthmatics are killed easily by the retardant fumes. Look at the case of Zack Ashoor–dead at 29. Died within a year after hiking through the fresh and excessive retardant dumps at Yarnell. Only Joy can name dozens with lung issues after the drops–and now approaching 200 deaths out of 645 population after only 6 years since the first Yarnell dousing with retardant, and only three years after the 2015 second dousing of the Yarnellites. What more evidence do you need that the retardant is a dangerous pollutant?
Anything that will kill other animals–eg-the 20000 dead fish killed for six miles in the Fall River, Oregon from only 1000 gallons of that pollutant –ought to be suspect for human health dangers as well. Know that ammonium is a deadly gas and if a city has a tank car burst, the area is evacuated. It kills lung cilia that never regenerate–but perhaps like Sonny who has had one lung shot out and after the Yarnell Fire continues to exist–but with such diminished lung capacity that his former hikes are now impossible. But too many–a third of Yarnell–have not been so fortunate to continue to survive the effects of the retardant drops in the amounts of 500 thousand gallons per fire.
Cowboy intelligence is beyond many–a cowboy has the formula to square a circle that no mathematician knows–ram a 4×4 up a bulls ass. Common horse sense goes a long ways.
Exactly Gary–the fire industry plays down the toxicity factor. One of the greatest tragedies involving burning of poly steroids happened in Russia December of 2009. Cyanide poisioning from the cyanide infused gases killed 156 people–111 immediately and 45 after a time of hospitalization. Cyanide poisoning is played down due to its constant use in industry–especially in making plastics. However it is established that at least 400 tonnes of ferrocyanide are included in the polluting retardant drops. It is also known that forest fires are the greatest source of environmental pollution involving cyanide.
So there is great danger involved in fires–elevated danger in fires burning plastics–whether those paper face masks are of much use to protect individuals I do not know but some sort of respirators are necessary to protect the wild land fire fighter.
The shame is people are not informed nor warned of the dangers of the chemicals being dumped around them and I am quite certain even the wild land fire fighters are uniformed until later in life when the effects of the chemicals and toxicity of the fires shows its ugly head in the form of cancer, lung disease and heart problems.
I should have said 400 tonnes of Ferrocyanide are included in the yearly drops of retardant. No wonder they hide the ingredients under trade secret. People are being poisoned to one degree or another by these retardant drops.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474237
I read your comment above is the link wtktt
(there is a hint within that comment to what is coming out this year)
and I have spent countless hours placing documents where they need to be and as I looked again through Todd Abel and Cougan C.’s extensive profiles – and so many more WF/FFs extensive profiles
it is not at all easy what I am about to do this year because it is obvious this fire industry is their world and I still have been praying like you Gary that first hand people come forward before I do our presentation
because some of the names I share will be shocking
and it will make sense why four women did what they did because they either knew the end results and wanted to re-route it to honor the fallen and stay locked there
versus discuss the real time moments
that has left too many traumatized because their account has been hidden all these years
or the ladies truly were ignorant to the data.
The vile ways from them – I am unsure and it is unknown where they lay in this- however I forgive all of them.
So yeah it is hard to see the many certificates and time and love and hours that I see in these profiles but like I said if I am alive or not the TRUTHS are in action and I pray the people first hand tell it because when I do there is no way I can be sued because I have ensured I covered it well.
If anything please pray and give forgiveness
(even to the ones who protected as well as the ones that caused me harm and sad slanderous misguided content over time)
– that is needed-
prayers and forgiveness
The reason we are bringing it out is because too many remain hidden and are still very much affected…
Some of the ones who are being protected are the ones we are telling their story or if bravery has it will show up and tell it themselves first hand.
As for Marty Cole- at the academy last year (2018) he was casual in body language but this year (2019) he seemed to be every where I was at times and at times awful close (in hearing distance) and this year his body language was not welcoming at all towards me and very barrier-like but everyone else was top notch except the immediate social media statements using my intellectual properties during my training time at the academy and yet I passed my classes.
Now there is social media people stating that the photo I took of Eric and mystery man is false. That is very untrue and when I get the audio for my interviews with the government it was discussed all the way from the get go of the aftermath of the YH Fire.
When we were on top of the Weavers we saw Eric with this man. Nate Peck also talks about him. Figures 12 & 12a. “Mystery Man” –
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/08/18/Part-2-of-Who-Do-We-Continue-to-Distinguish-And-Read-About-as-the-Likely-Participants-in-the-Undeniable-Sesame-to-Shrine-Corridor-Fuel-Fire-Break-Possible-Firing-Operation
I am sorry but I was there. I watched Eric go to the other man. I took the photo. Some out there have taken my photo and made new camera details and metadata to fit their narratives- I was there and I have no agenda in this and I took the photo not you.
We even told John Dougherty on our hike with him in 2013 and he said his wife was good at pixeling-
so the new news being dished out is rubbish.
As for the “sniper” and violence part on social media I have LOOKED everywhere on IM and all of the search engines and came back zip but if any of you know where it was said that Snipers were to be at the opening of the state park to take out the families – that is a serious allegation and I do have an investigation going on for that comment and legally looking into it since it was tied in the comment thread with my photo they used as a organization not as an individual. I want it removed and they did remove the photo and then it was re-posted with another pic yet same types of verbiage. That is not healthy for the owner writing it out to the world so please name the person you are referring to in regards to so many comments.
There is no way to reverse this at this point so really either wait and see what is said and what comes from it or SPEAK UP now like Gary pleads and begs for…
but yeah some hints in that link…
Reply to Joy A Collura post on April 4, 2019 at 2:01 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-474237
>>
>> I read your comment above is the link wtktt
>>
>> (there is a hint within that comment to what is coming out this year)
Everything in that almost-a-year-old comment is PUBLIC information.
It is no secret that there was a lot of ‘nepotism’ going on when it came to hiring for both the original Prescott “Crew 7” and the subsequently renamed “Granite Mountain Hotshots” organization.
I understand your feedback
yet the hint has zip to do with nepotism
nor the Prescott Way
and in my research it was not always that way-
I have interviewed some fine prior GMHS as well as Prescott Firefighters and Hotshots
and I will always be grateful they gave me the details I needed.
This is not an easy task to not just document the pre-GMHS and pre-Crew 7
or when Marty Cole came on the scene and his opinion of Eric and why and if it mattered.
My own instructor ( to become a FFT2 ) stated some stuff about Eric at the end of our classroom time awaiting to get the Award Ceremony
but I won’t air specifics because in recent notification of the social media debacle I not only saw our division of our class on that social media page (the page using my own photos tied to lies and negativity ) ( odd to see my division and my class on her page of all the classes that was there this year )
but I also saw the history of this page where he is named very close to this outfit and he was telling rookies stuff I don’t think he should have on that topic but he did say he was retiring so maybe it was something he needed to get out.
but I do this all to see exactly where it began if it was shared ‘it all began in some living room’ yet long time old fella friend of Duane’s told me different
so I always have to take stuff I hear and go fact check
but a lot of records both FOIA and Public I place them in but sometimes never even get an acknowledgement and always remember this fact-
many times I have been ‘behind their scenes’ they tried to get legal action towards me for asking for records to properly assess this with documents this fire and still to this day my records remain unpublished or sealed as a status. Why can’t another peak in and see what I asked for…right?
I really do not think any other person or eyewitness has been shown the disrespect to any fire fatality as much as me gathering the documents as the eyewitness of this fire,
I am the first one to admit I had not a clue what I was doing but at least I have been doing it and persevering ( and flawed and all – I keep at it ).
The moment I made my first inquiry along with so many firefighters that were there – we we have been treated wrongly and I want the families to get that from the get go certain people were told this was going to remain sealed.
That was why I have had to format it as I have to ensure it all and I mean all comes out.
I am sorry to you men and women who put so many years in with training and making this your world because I do not want to be that one to do this but I also cannot keep it sealed.
A lot of you that were there have come up to me and thanked me personally for doing this because they wish they could but they have families and they have lived the Prescott Way for way too long…some day once I format the paper you all one day will know there is many layers to the Prescott way.
This year’s scholarship 50/50 winner at the academy was Kayiden Archer.
If any of you are looking for a FFT2 rookie on your team let me know because Kayiden very much is gearing up to be out there THIS season.
Kayiden is a huge supporter to the GMHS and continues to support all the foundations tied to these men.
Kayiden knew one of the men.
I wanted to put this out there because Kayiden seem to gravitate to me at the academy and I through the week found myself challenging on the 10 and 18 so really it made for a solid week. Thank you Kayiden.
I shared with Kayiden to engage on here to share in this Fire World journey but you cannot be too sensitive to come to this blog…
Kayiden is having hard time finding all smooth leather 7d fire boots- any help for in store try ons versus online buying. Thanks.
Gooooo Kayiden! 🙂
I have been dreaming a lot about Elizabeth Nowicki-
Some day I hope to know where and how she fits in all this-
I remember her sharing and being so warm and helpful to so many in the after math of this and I would never know what a FOIA or Public Record was if it was not for her
I am sure Bill Boyd and so many are wishing I never learned the tool.
Before I head out with the kids-
and have a kid-filled fun day…
Keep in mind Kayiden’s need to find those boots- training starts soon! Still has to break them in-
I do not go on social media so asking you firefighters
and Woodsman is there one Fire Boot Brand that is better than another?
I did learn that the Boot Barn carries Fire Boots- cool to know.
Have a great week- heading out to Cali soon… (I know “going back to cali song is ringing in your head, huh) ( https://youtu.be/FdizL4on-Rc )
This is what is ringing in my head.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kPkDLkqYKeQ
Whoops, I fucked up. THIS is the one ringing in my head.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4
“That’s All Folks!”
**
** MARTY COLE: “ERIC HAD SOMETHING TO PROVE”
Reply to Gary Olson post on April 2, 2019 at 8:34 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> OK…jump one more. I think the zero sum game where every other
>> hotshot crew was a competitor and essentially an enemy camp, or
>> at least a hostile camp, was still very much alive and in play
>> on the day the Granite Mountain Crew died.
>>
>> That was in my opinion a significant contributing factor in their
>> destruction. Eric Marsh was driven to take unacceptable, foolish
>> and criminally reckless actions to prove his and his crew’s
>> detractors and doubters wrong.
>>
>> Somebody should be held accountable for that foolishness,
>> but I don’t know who to blame? Everyone? No one?
>>
>> The hotshot who drew the line with his Pulaski in the dirt road on
>> a fire and told the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew they weren’t worthy
>> enough to cross it? Everyone else who denied them entry into OUR HOUSE,
>> the house I helped build. I don’t know? Like so many other things
>> pertaining to this Shakespearian tragedy, I am conflicted.
Former “Crew 7” Chief Marty Cole was the one who first related that story to author ( and former hotshot ) Kyle Dickman, for his original September 17, 2013 ‘Outside Online’ article…
Outside Online
Article Title: 19: The True Story of the Yarnell Hill Fire
Published: September 17, 2013 – By Kyle Dickman
https://www.outsideonline.com/1926426/19-true-story-yarnell-hill-fire
From that article…
———————————————————————————————————
Many of those walls have since been torn down. But the tribalism still exists, and it’s strongest within the insular world of hotshots. Marty Cole was the superintendent of Granite Mountain from 2004 to 2005, when Eric first joined and they were trying to become a hotshot crew.
It was a humbling process. At the time, every one of the roughly 100 hotshot crews in the nation was funded by states or the feds—the Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, the Bureau of Indian Affairs—and many of them had decades of tradition. Granite Mountain, a startup outfit hosted by a small town in Arizona that most other hotshots had never heard of, wasn’t exactly well received.
The crew once showed up at a fire in Oregon in white ten-passenger vans. Real crews use buggies. When Granite Mountain went out to start work, a firefighter from another crew drew a line in the middle of the road with spray paint and wrote Don’t cross it.
“When I left, Eric had something to prove,” says Marty.
——————————————————————————————————-
Author Kyle Dickman then repeated the same story in his book…
From Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
———————————————————————————————————
Though the early hotshots were much more militarized and in vastly better condition than the civilian teams Forest Service rangers like Ed Pulaski had raised to battle violent blazes decades earlier, they still relied on only a few qualified firefighters to make decisions. The biggest difference between the new crews and the old militias came down to cultivated pride. The young hotshots believed they were the best firefighting force ever created, and that anybody who cared to claim the title needed to earn it first.
While Crew 7 were trying to become hotshots, during one shift on a blaze in Oregon, a firefighter from another crew grabbed a can of spray paint and drew a line in the middle of the road. Next to it he wrote, DON’T CROSS IT. Many firefighters simply refused to talk to the guys or eyed them up in the chow line. The Forest Service firefighters’ concern, whether justified or, much more likely, not, was that a municipal crew wouldn’t have their backs on the fire line. Marsh and his men were officially given a chance to prove themselves in 2007, when Crew 7 was made a hotshot training crew— one step beneath actual certification.
——————————————————————————————————–
Thank you once again for keeping the story straight, you more than anyone else know how important your work here is. I shoot from the hip and usually get close to the 10 ring, but you take very careful aim every time you shoot and almost always hit center mass right on the X.
There may not be any new dead horses to beat, (yet) but I am going to keep flogging the dead ones we have until somebody who matters starts doing the right thing…NWCG.
I was just confirming your recent post, and showing that there has never been any need for any of US to “guess” whether Marsh ran his crew with a chip on his shoulder and the need to “prove” something.
The people that KNEW him ( and worked with him ) have ALWAYS admitted that was the case.
How many OTHER crew bosses are still “out there” doing the same thing?
Hard to tell… but I hope it doesn’t take another disaster to find out.
The only real cure is prevention.
People like that should be free to take all the risks and gambles they want with their OWN lives… but NOT be allowed to ever be in a position to willy-nilly gamble with 19 ( or more ) other lives as well.
It;s just a job. Kick ash when you can…. fer sure… but the point is to GO HOME.
I know…thank you.
But you just happened to point out exactly what I was busy writing about at the same exact time…spooky. Train WLF that “Everybody Goes Home (alive and without serious injury) After Every Fire.” Instead if teaching them to say, “ Shit Happens.”
FWIW… the movie did not avoid this topic.
Matter of fact…if anyone pays attention to the actual PLOT of the movie… it does nothing but EMPHASIZE and CONFIRM this “Marsh had something to prove” thing.
Instead of the spray paint on the road, the movie OPENS with their alternative Hotshot-crewboss-thinks-all-type-2-crews-are-worthless-dumbass-monkeys moment and Marsh ( Brolin ) is told to “stay in the rear and mop up our shit”.
The rest of the plot is then basically BASED on that opening moment… and they portray Marsh as obsessed and driven to “prove something”. ( just as Marty Cole said he was ).
What the movie FAILED to do, of course, was show how that all probably did contribute to what happened in Yarnell.
They didn’t “connect the dots” their OWN plot had already drawn.
Their ( short ) drive-by treatment of the final Yarnell incident just stuck to the “big bad fire just came and got them” fairy tale.
No surprise, of course.
That is what most “ain’t it a shame” based movie plots do.
They just show what’s needed to make you feel sorry for everyone… but never offer full details.
Yeah…you’re right, I didn’t think it through because I thought the movie sucked, especially the romantic crap between Mrs. Lohman and Marsh, but I thought the scene with Steed and his kids were cute because I always called mine little stinkers too.
But they really did center the plot on Marsh being perversely driven as a psycho to prove not only himself but his crew while having a giant chip on his shoulder. They showed it coming to a head when he smashed up his office chair. So yeah…EVERYBODY knew Marsh was a ticking time bomb, even the idiots who made that stupid movie. What an odd coincidence, Tony Czak was also a ticking time bomb just like Gordon King.
I don’t remember if I told this story before or not, but the man who made me a hotshot crew boss only told me ONE thing, but I never forgot that one thing. I never knew what Richard (Allred) was thinking because his expression never changed his sad expression and he never raised his voice and he always spoke in a low monotone and never used curse words.
The first fire I took the crew out on as a their crew boss was just 12 miles down the road, and it was within in few hundred yards of the Mormon Lake Lodge on the Mormon Lake District, just off our district boundary.
It was only a few acres and we spent the night mopping it with some engine crews up after catching it the afternoon before. Richard was on the fire as the Fire Boss because it was so close to his district and the Mormon Lake District Office was actually in Flagstaff about 40 miles away and Richard was have been the fire command type officer on it.
Anyway…the next morning Richard walked up to me and told me, “I want you to bed your crew down here, pointing at the ground, and you can finish mopping the fire up tonight.”
I immediately gave him the standard WLF answer that translates into, “Aye, Aye, Sir,” which was, “Sounds Good.”
Richard just stood there staring at me with his large, sad, brown eyes and without raising his voice or changing his expressupion he said, “Your crew’s barracks with their cook, who is waiting to make them a hot breakfast is just 12 miles down the road and you think bedding them down here sounds good? That sounds like shit to me. Take care of your crew.” And then he turned around and walked away.
In that simple exchange, Richard told me that he expected to ALWAYS put my crew first even if it meant challenging his authority, which is something that never would have occurred doing to me without him ordering me to do so.
After that, I always knew that if Richard expected me to challenge his authority to put my crew first, I never had to worry about challenging everyone else. I always knew that the only thing I really had to worry about was taking care of my crew and bringing them home in one piece…more or less.
There was an always an automatic elite status that was bestowed on every U. S. Forest Service Hotshot Crew and Crew Boss that everyone recognized and no one ever questioned or challenged. The entire system was based on that most basic assumption. (except that MF Fire Boss and Line Boss from the Scott Fire who just decided they had to put me in my place, that one time: which was a freak anomaly.)
That was something Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshots never had and ultimately played a role in their destruction.
I was automatically given the status, authority, and respect by simply showing up that Eric Marsh craved but was never able to attain. I hope that has changed for all other non U.S. Forest Service Hotshor Crews today?
Although I don’t want to lose sight of the fact that Richard didn’t know me from anyone else on the crew when he made me the crew boss. The man who really made me the crew boss from a practical standpoint was our departing crew boss who has decided to go to law school after the Hog Fire, Jeff (Denny) Denepont.
And right at this moment I am referring to;
1. Conducting wildfire disaster investigations by using the NTSB as a model rather than the Three Stooges.
2. Completely recreating the fire shelter training into a professional a fact based effort with as much emphasis placed on the limits of fire shelters as you do their capabilities. And stop LYING about how many WLF have been saved by them. Divide the numbers you use by at least 10 and then cut that number in half and minus another 50%.
3. Reach out to law enforcement trainers and incorporate how to deal with extreme stress in your WLF training. Use Granite Mountain (Caption Jesse Steed ?) as an example of how people go into Condition Black and their minds are so overwhelmed by the catastrophe they find suddenly find themselves in the middle of they revert to automatic learned muscle memory responses in dealing with the crisis by doing things like changing their call sign without realizing they have done so by reverting back to Granite Mountain 7 rather than identifying themselves as the Granite Mountain Hotshots, which they has been for years at that point. Law enforcement training is about 50 years ahead of where you are…stuck somewhere in the 1950’s.
4. Immediately…if not sooner, start training WLF to do simple calculations based on the concept of, “How Big Is Big Enough and use my contribution, “Because Size Does Matter.”
5. At least familiarize WLF with the physiological and mental changes they can expect to undergo under extreme stress that include tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and loss of fine motor skills, to name just a few.
6. Train your WLF to use a completely new mindset of winning instead of teaches them how to lose. Do what you can to make sure no WLF ever states again, “We aren’t going to make it!” Train them to “Finish The Fight” and that they will make it and believe, “We Will Make It!” Condition them to know they will have about another 30 seconds of life, even after they are already dead. They can accomplish a lot in 30 seconds.
And that’s just for starters you stupid fucks!
Whoops, I got carried away again didn’t I NWCG and US Forest Service? You don’t use the Three Stooges as a model for your investigations do you? That model would simply be based on incompetence. You aren’t incompetent are you? You are very clever liars, deceivers, criminals, conspirators, scam artists, confidence men and grifters. Thieves of the truth…aren’t you? And most importantly…killers of WLF in the future. You are very good at what you do….Mike Dudley.
I don’t want the US Forest Service to fix people like Mike Dudley or Shawna Legarza, they are hopelessly compromised. Retire them, wipe the skate clean, start over with some honest people who will do the right thing for WLF.
And just as a reminder, after Marsh killed his crew, no one who was an insider was surprised.
They all said things like, “I knew it was only a matter of time.” Everybody knew it was only a matter it time. Marsh was a tragedy looking for a place to happen for years and everybody knew it. But yet…they did nothing to stop it. Should we blame them? What is their moral liability? Nothing? Something? Everything?
Actually…I do remember RTS telling us that other hotshot crew bosses which implies him as well…did try to modify Marsh’s behavior with one on one peer counseling. Those efforts were obviously…inadequate.
Oh…and one more thing.
Being a hotshot crew boss was easy for me, being a hotshot was hard…but being a crew boss was easy. Even at 23, it was an easy job for the following reasons.
1. I had been raised right in the traditions of the U.S. Forest Service by Old School DFMO’s Ron Melcher (Prescott National Forest) Hub Harris and Richard Allred (Coconino National Forest) and Orlando Romero (Santa Fe National Forest). And at the Forest level, by men Steve Servis and Bill Buck (Coconino National Forest) and finally Les Buchanan and Ray Page (Santa Fe National Forest).
And of course all of those men had worked on many other National Forests in many other states for decades and they brought that wealth of knowledge, culture, spirit, history and TRADITION with them that helped me because I worked for them.
All I had to do was to try as hard as I could to imitate them. I often fell short in accomplishing that objective, but I never quit wanting to be the supervisors, managers, leaders, role models, wild land firefighters and men they were. And of course there were many others I met and worked with along the way, DFMO Tom Holly from the Globe Ranger District, Toronto National Forest jumps to the front of my memory.
And secondly, to become a good and effective hotshot crew boss, all I had to do was to emulate my crew bosses, Amos Coochyama and Jeff Denepont and try to be like them as best I could by following the example they had set based on a hard core hotshot ethos. Central to that culture was hard work, dedication, observing Safety First while agreessively taking the fight to the fire and loyalty to our crew, Ranger District and home Forest all while upholding the tradition of the U.S. Forest Service on a macro level.
In addition, I had the support and loyalty of my crew who believed in me. Not every crew member all of the time of course, some I had to remove from the crew and others had to be properly brought up to speed regarding how we did things downtown by the the senior crewmen and squad bosses or they removed themselves from our crew. But all anyone had to do to make it on our crew was to give it all they had when they were called upon to do so. We also took some long lunches, played some volleyball games, and went on some nice District orientation tours along the way. We knew how to live it up.
And finally…I had the proud tradition, history, and culture of the.entire U.S. Forest Service behind me and in particular more than 30 years of what it meant to be a U.S. Forest Service Hotshot which provided tye framework, structure and cornerstone upon which to build my crew.
All I had to do, was to do it like those who had come before me had done it and I was guaranteed of having a good crew who would uphold the three most important things to the U.S. Forest Service (as I like to write),
1. Tradition
2. Tradition
3. Tradition
Eric Marsh had none of that because of his failed and disastrous career with the U. S. Forest Service he rejected the things he had learned out of spite and pettiness. Marsh was lost from the very beginning as a hotshot crew boss with no one except for for men like Marty Cole and Darrell Willis to guide him.
Shame, shame, shame on the City Of Prescott for being so arrogant that they thought they could build a successful hotshot crew with those men leading their program. The crew was sound…their foundation was rotten and in the end, 19 WLF, which includes Eric Marsh paid a terrible price for their foolishness…IMHO.
Oh yeah..and Duane Steinbrink.
No Old School U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighters to emulate in that sorry trio.
And yes…I know there are other great Old School wild land firefighters out there who weren’t U.S. Forest Service and made the old fashioned way. But…I’m still very tribal. It’s just the way it is.
Marty Cole, Duane Steinbrink and Darrell Willis build a House Of Cards on a foundation of sand with a deeply flawed out-of-control crew boss who had never been in control. Marsh just careened from screw up to screw up. AND THEY KNEW IT! EVERYBODY KNEW IT! WHY DID THEY ACCEPT IT?
And I think I know the answer to that as well. It’s because they could control him. Marsh was out of options and had no where to go as a middle aged front line wild land firefighter. The structure side of their PFD house didn’t want him.
I mean let’s face it. There is only ONE RTS, am I right?
And of course on every hotshot crew there is a degree of hazing, not on the level of fraternities or apparently college bands, for some bizarre reason I fail to understand? But there is some as part of the indoctrination and cultureization of new crew members and other targets of opportunity. But not a lot…because tempers can flare with bad consequences in that closed and high stress environment. So…anyway, here are two examples of pranks that never got old.
Most of our long lunch breaks came after hard fires or long stretches without days off while stacking sticke in the middle of the forest for no apparent reason.
So sometimes when it came to to get back to work, if there was someone who was really sawing some logs in a deep sleep, everyone on the crew would quietly slip away, load up on the bus. And then we would start the engine and lay on the horn with everyone yelling, LOAD UP, LOAD UP, FIRE, FIRE, FIRE, LETS GO GO GO GO!
And then watch the target of the prank leap to their feet while trying to gather their things, oriient themselves, all while running for the bus like a drunken sailor on shore leave. We were a hoot!
Another old favorite was to chop the head off a rattlesnake we had come into contact with while working down drainages at night mopping up, especially on the Tonto National Forest.
Anyway, this one was done sometimes when there was a narrow place .lined with huge boulders which forced everyone who was working down the canyon into a choke point where they had to jump off a boulder to land on what was typically a sandy spot were sand had accumulated when water did run in what were normally dry creeks or rivers.
So…the prank was to coil up the headless rattler on the sand underneath the boulder like it was ready to strike. And then wait for the next person in line to come along, stand for a few seconds on top of the boulder and then jump down to the sand below.
At some point in that process after jumping, if the snake was placed in the right place, the dim light from their headlamp would eventually illuminate the coiled snake, sometimes literally between their feet. And then watch them try to propel themselves backwards, back up onto the boulder, sometimes while in mid air like they were in a cartoon. I’m telling you…that one never got old. Especially if they were overhead or from another hotshot crew.
And yes Joy, I know it isn’t right to kill or even disturb wildlife for fun and I never do while Jeeping or enjoying my National Forests and BLM Public Lands because they live there and we are just visiting.
But you know rattlers hunt at night and it was informal policy not to leave them alive for the next WLF to maybe find in the dark while mopping up desert fires. They were collateral damage.
And I should have written, “…stacking sticks in the middle of the forest for no apparent reason other than there weren’t any lines we needed to go stand in as hotshots.”
And for anyone who doesn’t fully understand the underlying humor with that line, here is our IM thread cartoon that explains them and why I am always disrespecting smokejumpers as a matter of principle. This cartoon never gets old either. 😂
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOvM2u8l64
In my book, I will also use descriptive words like, “pride, selflessness, camaraderie, espirit de corps, sense of purpose and belonging to something that was greater than ourselves,” to describe how we felt as U.S. Forest Service Hotshots and the beneficiaries of a long and proud history and tradition of what it meant to be a “hard core hotshot.”
All hotshot crew can claim the very same heritage, all hotshot crew originated from the Cradle Of Hotshot Civilization on the Cleveland and Angels National Forests in SoCal (R-5 and R-3 rivalries and tribalism aside for the moment).
“Angeles National Forest.”
Yeah but if you leave it alone than this wlf can drink their venom in hopes to get well.
Yuck! Like I say, you are way tougher than I am!
I don’t want to even live in a world where I can’t have my Purple Mattress and LA-Z-Boy Big and Talk Man Recliner. Take me home Sweet Jesus…just lift this veil of tears and take me home!
That would be “Tall Man” although on nights like this, “Talk Man” works also.
REPLY IN CAPS–
Gary Olson says
APRIL 2, 2019 AT 1:48 AM
Joy,
1. I hardly think almost six (6) years qualifies as expecting some answers NOW!
HUH- REALLY HISTORICALLY LET US LOOK WHEN I PLACED STUFF ON IM AND THEN GO SEE WHAT STILL HAS A CHANCE TO EXIST OR HAS BEEN CHANGED- I AM ON THE RIGHT PATH…
2. I haven’t “discovered” anything since I started participating on this blog. I have however, been made “aware” of too many things to list in this format by my participation here and all of those things I have detailed on this blog as we have moved along at our breakneck pace. And many of those things have altered my initial perception of almost everything about that catastrophic day on the YHF Disaster, and all of those alterered perceptions, conclusions and assumptions have also detailed on this thread.
QUESTION- ARE YOU OKAY WITH THE BOOKS OUT AND MOVIE?
3. I didn’t say RTS was taken to Messier 45 by aliens it be probed and impregnated with an alien baby, I said Rumor Control has been reporting that fact for weeks now. In addition, “a lot of people say” (to quote President Trump) the same things about RTS, but I don’t have any first hand knowledge about his alien baby, or if he is even still in contact with the father or not?
I HOPE IF HE DID HAVE AN ALIEN THAT HE LETS HIM GO TO NAU 😉
“HUH- REALLY HISTORICALLY LET US LOOK WHEN I PLACED STUFF ON IM AND THEN GO SEE WHAT STILL HAS A CHANCE TO EXIST OR HAS BEEN CHANGED- I AM ON THE RIGHT PATH…”
Well…this is more of the same that my brain 🧠 isn’t able to compute, but I guess that’s just the way it is.
“QUESTION- ARE YOU OKAY WITH THE BOOKS OUT AND MOVIE?”
No…I thought the movie was a waste of my money for the theatre ticket even with my senior citizen discount. I haven’t read any of the books because I depended on WTKTT’s book reviews and analysis and I was waiting for him to tell me there was one worth reading and that never happened.
I don’t have very much patience at this stage for bullshit in my life. Participating in blog and having some fun with it is my only indulgence in putting up with anything that irritates me because I believe in our end product. I think we have made a difference with the only record of the YHF Disaster that isn’t agenda driven.
Our efforts have been…messy, but pure of purpose and agenda free. The movie, and all of the books to date have been agenda driven (IMHO). The movie in particular was (to paraphrase Sir Winston Churchill) an agenda, wrapped in an agenda, inside an agenda. And none of the agendas were concerned with the truth or doing, “the right thing.”
And as far as the whole RTS and alien baby thing goes, I just pray he had a Caesarean section because…DAMN!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5OVdoTDuKT0
I’m sorry things haven’t worked out with your newly minted wild land firefighter creds. But you have to remember…I did write several years ago that they are a culture that eats their young. The trick is to make it off the beach and then you might have a chance…maybe? But…I doubt it. 🤕
And you have to remember…RTS and I aren’t old friends, we are old competitors. R-5 versus R-3, Arizona versus New Mexico, the U.S. Forest Service versus everybody else, the Tonto versus the Coconino. The right way to run a hotshot crew versus the way RTS did it.
We weren’t even comrades with the other hotshot crews on the Coconino. It was always run by the fire gods as a zero sum game. They thought they got more out of us by pitting us against each other than by teaching us to work together and respect each other.
And as far as my highly anticipated and acclaimed tome that is going to be the greatest book ever written about wild land firefighters goes, I am going to make it available to my hordes of fans as a free download.
No…really, you all have compensated me more than enough with the E-Ticket for Mr. Toads Wild Ride that you paid for because I saw the Elephant. I am trying to return some interest on the investment you made in me, it cost you…a lot of money, no really…it was a lot of money💰!
And you are still paying, so…thank you.
Oh…and one more thing. In the interest of full disclosure…my intentions for my book to be made available on line as a free download aren’t purely alturistic. No publishers would ever even consider publishing what I am writing…there is way to much civil liability. 😂
And I am not changing the names of either the pro or antagonists in my book to protect the GUILTY, and you know who you are.
Although I bet a lot of people have made the mistake of underestimating Joy…so I want to walk back what I wrote since I don’t want to make that mistake. I know Joy is tougher, smarter, way more determined and stubborn than I am, not to mention the fact she is just as wacky as I am. Or you know..entertaining and FUN!
So…if anyone with Joys negatives can make it…I’m sure she can. And by negatives…I am referring to her not being in her early twenties. WLF gets harder the older you get.
Of course RTS is the exception to this general rule as he is to so many other rules that govern the lives of most of us. So…who knows…who knows?
Correction,
Although I love all variants of the Bell Iroquois so much I really liked the scenes in the movie of the “slicks” flying the crew out to and back from the fire🔥
That sound…that distinctive WOP WOP WOP of approaching Hueys always sounded to me like…VICTORY!
Don’t be a pussy, (non gender specific) put on your earphones and crank up the volume to about a 9.9 and go for a ride down memory lane with me.
I mean…Norman Greenbaum and his one hit wonder, it just doesn’t get any better than this, Old School!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=56Zs9BKHpP8
OK…jump one more. I think the zero sum game where every other hotshot crew was a competitor and essentially an enemy camp, or at least a hostile camp, was still very much alive and in play on the day the Granite Mountain Crew died.
That was in my opinion a significant contributing factor in their destruction. Eric Marsh was driven to take unacceptable, foolish and criminally reckless actions to prove his and his crew’s detractors and doubters wrong.
Somebody should be held accountable for that foolishness, but I don’t know who to blame? Everyone? No one?
The hotshot who drew the line with his Pulaski in the dirt road on a fire and told the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew they weren’t worthy enough to cross it? Everyone else who denied them entry into OUR HOUSE, the house I helped build. I don’t know? Like so many other things pertaining to this Shakespearian tragedy, I am conflicted.
And just for the record, I will tell you who should be assigned the blame for creating and benefiting from that toxic hotshot culture on the mighty Coconino.
The original Flagstaff Hotshot Crew Boss who created the first “Ludi Gladiatorium” and was the Chief Lanista on the Mighty Coconino that trained and then farmed out almost all other hotshot crew bosses to the other crews on the Forest…that asshole Van Bateman and his creator…Bill Buck.
Oh…and by the way. We marched to a different drum on the Long Valley Ranger District and the Happy Jack Hotshots, it was an Indian War Drum.
We were led by two very strong and independent District Fire Management Officers who told Buck he was welcome to visit our District and then fuck off.
DFMO Hub Harris and his successor, DFMO Richard Allred. DFMO Orlando Romero was cut from the same cloth. Old School DFMO’s. As was the only other DFMO I worked for, Ron Melcher. I was a very Fortunate Son.
Nope…I got carried away. The way other hotshot crew treated Granite Mountain is (IMHO) a contributing factor, not a significant factor in the deaths of the crew. Just trying to keep score as I move along.
If Van Bateman and Bill Buck would have picked the third hotshot crew boss to run the Happy Jack Hotshots, i never would have been the youngest hotshot crew boss in history. It would have been a Flagstaff Hotshot Assistant Crew Boss.
I actually have a copy of the nice letter that I eventually found by pursuing my Official Personal Folder (OPF in USFS colloquial speak) where Richard actually told Bill Buck, thanks, but no thanks, I got my boy right here on deck. And then he wrote, “If he doesn’t work out, you can send your Flagstaff Hotshot out here.”
Hahaha! Richard made sure I worked out! I was “Too Big To Fail” for his program. He knew where my loyalty laid.
you still playing your guitar Sonny?
https://youtu.be/XeHK7sh2Al8
https://youtu.be/9y2cs9us0e8
Testimony of Jim Norris (Granite Mountain Hot Shots Scott Norris’ Father)
So that “testimony” was just published YESTERDAY?
Interesting.
Poor guy. Regardless of the words coming out of his mouth… his body language and demeanor suggest he is still “tortured” by what happened to his son.
I recall the words of Marti Reed, here on this forum…
“The Yarnell Hill Fire never went out. It still keeps burning”..
Reply to Joy A Collura post on April 2, 2019 at 1:31 am
>> Joy Collura posted a link to a new song written about Yarnell…
>>
>> https://youtu.be/XeHK7sh2Al8
A song written as if it is Brendan Mcdonough talking.
Contains the line…
“I knew there was nothing I could do to save them”.
That actually remains a debatable topic.
At any time after he left his assigned lookout position, and was then “in town” and becoming fully aware that the fire was now “exceeding all expectations”… Brendan could have pressed transmit on his handheld and just made SURE that his crew KNEW that… and were fully AWARE of how fast the fire was actually moving.
He never did ( even though he still keeps testifying that he had direct communications with Marsh and Steed in the time the SAIT said they could not verify any ).
Also… unsolicited songwriting tip….
Be careful basing an entire song on the word “Gabions”.
Most people don’t have the faintest idea what those are.
Yes–I still have the Gibson that I bought from Brent’s yard sale-He was another one that died suddenly after the fire–he looked so good and our visits there were many and I did visit him in the hospital–he was young–about 45 Joy? Damn that killer retardant. I do sing that Green Back Dollar song now and again but I have mostly become a recluse –like John the Baptist in the wilderness or Moses headed up the mountain and returning with his head hair glowing–shit that burning bush radiation lights you up and my own hair is white and I do think TV’s blink when I walk by–Uranium mining has its quirks but the retardant is the fast killer. Is there anyone in Yarnell that was not hurt by that operation Agent Orange clone attempt?
I must admit you are one fine person to do what you are doing and I can give latitude since I know that what you are doing is for the best interests for all and never mind the six year wait, a few more months if appropriate to get to the right ears is fine with me. The loved ones deserve the closure and truth and we all want to know the facts of the matter. I am one to commend you for what you have done–I could have never accomplished it and I doubt few others wanted to know and if they did would not want to publish the raw truth,
Damn, we have had so many near escapes and here I am back in gear. I am breathing some better–able to get a couple of 20 foot telephone poles suspended for beams to the screened porch I am building. Sometimes I think the Irish Gods are lifting these things for me since I am so weak. Have some faith and you can move a moutain? How about just lifting a couple telephone poles or just uncovering the truth of what really happened at Yarnell? Those all take the type faith that moves mountains–old Jesus knew these things and I am certainly glad he passed these facts along for us mortals to use. Will we be immortals–maybe it will be moving mountains or even planets.
Yes the alien thing–it is around and too many people of integrity have verified it. There are plenty of nuts as well wanting to ride the waves of attention–yet it is known statistically that there has to be advanced life beyond our own just by the sheer numbers in the universe of stars and planets. People make jokes of it because it has been connected to the crazies. Yet they read a Bible that describes spacecraft similar to what many have described as seeing. Yet Joy and I have also seen some phenomenon–some she has actual photos of that defy rational explanation. People can be confused, but photos do not lie–the thing is there unless someone can doctor the photo=–except I was there when Joy took the photos and we reviewed them immediately after they were taken. Same as the video of the drip torching–it happened, we saw it, but in that case someone decided the public should not be looking at that procedure.
So I took time out for laying the floor–fried some sweet potatoe in olive oil==I cook simple but it is good–especially if you wait until you are damn hungry. Got my solar panels ordered and they will go up–3270 watts of power which next month I will add another 3270 watts for a good enough power supply in my case–God be willing and the creek does not rise and my other dogs don’t shoot me in the back–something I have to mull over how that was done.
https://youtu.be/dvB_H-s4UNk
for you Sonny…you will get a kick out of it
Yarnell Fire District
At the start of the video, Jeff Shearer says he is the “Fire Chief” for the
Yarnell Fire District… and Ben Palm is now just the “Assistant Chief”.
When did that happen?
WHAT happened to cause Ben Palm to ‘step down’… but still be ‘hanging around’?
The Yarnell Fire District web pages and social media pages are still listing
Ben Palm as the Yarnell “Fire Chief”.
Followup…
Scratch the question above about WHEN.
In the same video… former Yarnell FD Captain Jeff Shearer says he became the “Chief” on January 7 of this year ( 2019 ).
That was almost 3 months ago… but as I noted above… all the PUBLIC facing web pages and social media for Yarnell Fire District is still just listing “Ben Palm” as the “Fire Chief”.
Do you know what went down back in January?
I have asked for the Public Records on that Wtktt and seems they have to RUN IT THROUGH THEIR LEGAL TEAM so months pass but the video stated the start of this year but it is rumored Chief Ben Palm was still tied to the Dept as Asst Chief and still no public records yet
Only time will tell but let you know that when I know it
I did learn though Jason Lohman was tied to Yarnell but Denise Roggio said Tuesday, March 26, 2019 9:39 AM he was no longer there and a local man’s son said Jason helped him with his tire in Jerome so looks like he is a FF over there now.
This is their exact quotes:
We apologize for any inconvenience, but we are working as
efficiently as possible.
Jason Lohman is no longer with the department, nor did he have a red
card.
Chief Shearer says he is working on other request information,
however 2018 Red Cards and a Roster are available for pick up in the office..
02/13/2019: As you know, we are in a huge
transition right now. Chief Shearer is researching the legal
requirements of your request.
He asked me to send you a copy of our Current Roster, and know that we
are working on the rest.
It will take some time – thanks for your patience.
Also now that I am a FF – I still am having hard time to get on the staff rides- go figure.
The 2-13-19 roster did hve Jason on there.
https://youtu.be/HdqBEQrwBxE
another video for you to see Sonny
watch it all please
https://wechsleriqtest.com/short-iq-test/
SHORT QUIZ FOR YA SONNY- I DOUBT YOU ARE 75
MAYBE YEARS OLD
HEE HEE
di·a·tribe
/ˈdīəˌtrīb/
noun
a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something.
————————————————–
No Sonny
No diatribe
nothing bitter….
Just assertive
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-475876
Charlie says
DECEMBER 18, 2018 AT 1:14 AM
So the new Year is soon to be here. The FS and others will come out with the truth and nothing but the truth in the new Year– (April 1, 2019). The next year has 20–the number in the crew and 19 the number that died. Something will give in this coming year. (emphasis added)
——————————————————
Sonny did predict more information on 4-1-19 back then to surface and because God is speaking to Gary then let me share some information being it is April 1st, 2019 …
Fast forward almost 6 years we are meant to or expected to nod our head and move on. The hikers were supposed to fade into the injured crowd, say thank you to the nice firefighters and move on, like it never happened. They think I am doing some popularity contest in the fire world when in reality I have already started to do the right thing – how about you reading this – have you done it right because once it goes live to the world – will you be at ease when the news shares the spur roads and the actual folks who were there. Are you Willis ready to share more content and footage? How about after all these years Duane – can you take the time and fill in some swiss cheese areas or anyone you know? The seal has been broken men.
How many out there reading this was asked to do the same after the Yarnell Hill Fire?
As an Arizonan – how many out there faced what I am facing?
As a Firefighter, say nothing, do nothing and accept a hero story from the investigation group and no one did a thing wrong.
I was looking forward to seeing Brad Mayhew soon- I have some very good questions for him when he speaks publicly yet if RTS is where you hear he is Gary- then we are all in trouble.
Will RTS be able to really talk real after such an experience of being probed? Sonny may know that answer – he has met a few – maybe a few too many –
Let me see if I can give Mr. Brad Mayhew some heads up stuff I would like for him to address to me since he said let’s take a hike and meet up after the Shelter Island conference later in the Spring 2018
that was last Spring
to then the buddy buddy moment or what was that moment where Brad speaks as he did to Holly Neill and John MacLean then they were all 3 cozied eating together-
oh by the way – no hike or call or email ever happened –
yet I strongly feel I am owed as the eyewitness of this tragedy this:
when you got a copy Brad of how to do an serious accident incident report, – it has a certain format – did you ever receive such a copy?
Did you read in it who the key people were to be in charge of what things?
So if you were to be the lead investigator…right?..
and the publication comes out and you are not there but you are in many FOIAs and public records and talking with firefighters…???
It is the most key position so why not be in the publications – you did cover human factors, right?
Did you know the true definition of your position? If you were in charge (term not defined) why were you not mentioned – to me that is not following the SAIR guidelines. Yet it appears a lot of that was going on.
You can huff and puff to Neill and MacLean- if RTS ever returns from “outer space” and I show up at the conference I will not say a peep- you know what I want here.
I leave it in your lap.
Explain.
Gary, a local’s question this past week I am carrying into your lap:
I have 2 questions, has your hypothesis about the fire ever changed from when you started your investigation? And have you ever made discoveries you didn’t expect? In other words have you found only what you looked for or have you discovered new things that you didn’t look for?
Willis is a good man not because Holly told me so in November 2013…
a hero in a sense to my inner child.
He is not a hero to my almost 47 year old “warrior of truth” self that I currently walk around in
Duane is a good man.
A man who knows loss and losses –
a role model for so many of us –
until we knew more of the details than I learned to feel at first sorry
but then deeply Gary tells about God wants me to share more…
The moment people questioned this industry was the moment you saw the depth of ostracizing and doors slammed on people – that is wrong.
The men went downhill Gary and indirect but not all were together at that point.
Until the day I die if Shumate wants to keep doing the wrong thing than that is on him and he will see God some day and in some way.
A fire a short squad of type 2 firefighters or even 2 firefighters with a shovel and pulaski could’ve put out in one shift eventually decimated our community, incinerated 19 human beings and it is slowly killing people I love in my community.
Sonny, Jim Nagel died recently (the ham radio guy we led to Holly Neill) and Bill Buck and Roberta Era…they all lived in the area where a huge sluury drop was dumped…
Too many died this year…too many. Come this May when they do their 5k races in Yarnell…might as well make it a new memorial kind of race.
Someone I respected dearly and alot of you knew from me writing about him on here –
Pete Masiel –
I do think there should be a formal investigation of the vehicle accident he was in that killed him
because he was key in alot of this to helping –
(thank the Good Lord I was led to more than just him)
he was in a sense the key to the castle
but so am I, Gary
Said with firmness and confidence
Why else would a forest service man want to be around silly old me –
unless they probed him sooner than you thought –
maybe that has been ongoing…I have no answer because in reality all the creds won’t matter – my integrity does.
There is not one person from my history I would be afraid would say something because I have been a kind soul through life who I publicly shares my flaws-
Sonny too.
We have been real and we stayed with your industry with no agendas.
and I have already set everything in action in case what happened to Pete happens to me when I am the passenger in someone’s vehicle-
I do hope you all investigate it
because I am a passenger with VERY SAFE drivers.
I hope the news of Pete Masiel shook everyone up as it has to my life
and why I choose the legal system and lawyers and my own blog where it is my stuff to be accountable not John Dougherty/InvestigativeMEDIA
and yes it is out already the news where it needs to be in case I vanish or some freak thing happens…
this is real time life, Gary…
no joke…
real…
I stand by what I write on my blog even if one does not get it
because they do not know all I know but in time they will…
I have seem time and time again what I say on IM be shifted behind the scenes and I am focused ONLY to 20 minutes before A/G, Gary…
So let’s get the wheels rolling and stay the course
keep the faith Gary
I know it is hard for you to be patient…
I know pretty much the entire weekend and John MacLean is right in some fashion- we only focus to Sunday because of the tragedy but much is to be said about Friday and Saturday…and those days are coming out too.
Gary, you pick on the old man-RTS- yet he is a good man, friend and mentor to so many peoples lives, A true confusion to mine. Indeed.
So to place me in some Mensa Chapter dealio alongside him — nah just been to academies and conferences with him and a Creek meeting—
and I admit I definitely am not a smartie panties but I remember hanging out with a lady who belonged to a symphony and she had me tested (IQ) and it was over 130 and she felt I was a genius- I wish I could re-take the test nowadays with all this rattlesnake venom in me…oh and bushmaster venom….
Hey, RTS- what did you test? Maybe Gary is right – we can join a chapter after all 😉
You know as Sonny always said life is too short
I will never comprehend why “housewife hiker” was not ok as I am the eyewitness in this by RTS but that’s him…he has his own set of life perceptions-
but hell I have learned a lot of terminology to learn the system really needs help and leaders need to go and glad some retired.
Jay Kurth is a fine example of a man who retired at just the right moment or was it- would have been nicer if it was after DC in my opinion…— oh wait maybe it was Curtis Heaton who retired…maybe Jay is gonna be there for all this…hope so 🙂
Gary just as you are- a good man…
Anyone who has engaged on this site has been labelled some negative word but in real time we know you are not just doing your job
but you want it out asap…I get that
but it is all set to roll- I tell you as I knew it what my stuff was.on IM as tool for Joy not news to the world so that I could come back and CTRL F and key in words to find exact date I learned something
I am not social media blogger gal nor care to be
just tools to get or give data
..
I am important Gary
and believe it or not
I am appreciated-
maybe not by your likes or maybe I am by your likes- shit, who knows…and since you carry no Christmas Card Roster…who really cares
.in this journey – I tried to contact Musser to do a post on his dad because I want the world to see Musser is the son of old style CDF..-.his dad was long time CDF …aka “Smokie” and no, not Smokie Bear
I really would like to do that post with Musser’s involvement and fact check yet I have enough people over time that their account is fine but what an excellent post to do one on his dad and the old days of CDF to how it has changed and how it made Musser the man he is today…
I know many want to move forward on not sharing specifics on YH Fire yet I have to do the right thing and I am sorry if it hurts some folks but there is some folks that never been the same since that fire so doing it for them.
I encourage all that know Musser
let him know to reach me
let’s make a kick ass post on his dad
An old school versus this new school firefighter post for my blog – I think it would be the right spot versus the news to share Musser’s story…
I have spent alot of time with CALFire and some CDF men and I would like to also post about that entity and how the changes have become dangerous and too much protection of the agency versus telling the truth but maybe it has always been that with them..
Some think I am irrelevant to the ongoing task of finding out more about what really
happened in Yarnell for that entire weekend in 2013 that I eye witnessed with Tex Gilligan (Sonny) .yet I think one really cool factor- I have documented this very well includes my health journey and Sonny’s and yet we are still here with you all persevering . I have to address some significant high levels of concern – asymmetry, intensity, distribution, significant vascular patterns and temp. differences etc. so I have been under supervision consuming three times a day timber rattlesnake and bushmaster venom. So yeah keep that in mind. Sonny is not so sure drinking rattlesnake venom is something he would do but if I am immune to the horseshit bs you dish out Gary then for sure I can drink venom.
“a whole lotta said…but nothing to walk away from it…”
GOOOOOOO KAYIDEN! 🙂
or was there?
Quite a diatribe Joy–venting some feelings and a good catharsis. I had to smile all the way through since I know you so well. That snake venom is coming out a bit and methinks rightfully so.
We can understand why people do not necessarily want the true version of what happened in Yarnell–especially those that have made up their own version of things and have attempted to make the culprits in the death of their crew look like heroes exemplary. That though sacrifices future wild land fire fighter safety and feeds a line to the public who funds these escapades.
I doubt 130 is right on your IQ–I would think more like 160 because generally the IQ tests are only approximate. They give an idea of your intelligence and 130 would be high but it does not tell the whole story–something I would know having been associated with you so many years.
I think my IQ is down to about 75–that retardant has retarded me. But it has done some horrible things to others as you keep listing deaths of people you know and some I knew. It had done some horrible things to people’s health and well being, albeit most of them do not realise it.
The sick and death toll you have kept track of has spoken loudly of the dangers of that polluting agent orange chemical soup that was so profusely spread upon the town of Yarnell and Glen Isla. It is another poison as deadly in time as the rattlesnake venom you are taking.
I would like to say that perhaps small doses and you would become immune to it such as your snake venom. I am certainly suspect of taking even small doses of snake venom–something I have not studied or tried. But with the retardant, I am a person who has suffered right along with the other guinea pigs of Yarnell. Thanks to you, John Daugherty and others that get out information about the pollutants in the environment. People need to become aware of the dangers and when the right folks understand, then there is hope for a change.
I do not need to remind you that ammonia is a lung killer and lung cells once destroyed by the ammonium never rejuvenate. It make take years for the ammonium to react on young people, but elderly with immune systems and lungs already taxed, it becomes an acute problem.
In my own case I am there on the edge of the death fence and this all came to me after the Yarnell fire. This has been true for most of the Yarnell people–there is an epidemic of sickness and death there after the massive retardant dumps in 2013 and 2015. Even fallout radiation has not been so quick to kill as the retardant dumps. So, yes Joy, you named only a few of those that are subjects of its curse.
Hopefully all the sickness and deaths as a result of the retardant dumps will not be in vain. There is a change someone will begin to look at this problem in an honest manner.
It is said no long time studies of the effects of retardant upon the human population has been made. Well at Yarnell you do not need a long time study–the facts of the sickness and deaths are there.
So once the truth comes out you will see that the pitiful $15 an hour wage the wild land fire fighter earns is well below what he should be earning. Miners on contract these days make $50 an hour or more if they are good men. That in my mind would be a fair wage for a grunt waving a Pulaski and breathing the smoke off of retardant dumps. He is not only getting a breath of fresh ammonia but he is getting a mix of chemicals including cyanide gas and whatever else the greedy bastards that hide the chemicals under trade secret laws. If I knew what they were you would know, but only a doctor can find out, yet he can not tell or he will be up for legal problems.
These are my opinions–you are entitled to your own and also entitled to continue in ignorance if that is your pleasure. Ignorance might be bliss but it might also be the death of you.
I am sure most here will accept me for who I am, and I thank you in advance for your understanding! For everyone else, I would certainly appreciate your support on my journey. For those who can’t or won’t, I will not hold it against you, and wish you well in life! I have zero hate for anyone but I will challenge and call out when I know behind the scenes.and yes the truth does involve local/state/federal peoples and they are being brought out this year…they had their chances…too many are affected by their story being hidden. So for the mom supporting the recent social media…yes your son’s story is coming out. Time for some to get the proper mental health help…I have given all the heads ups.
We have kept the topic alive about the Shrine–WTKTT has mentioned how Trueheart Brown’s exclamation about his worries that some of those at the Shine area were likely to burn themselves out tells me that the video we saw was supported as a fact and not some figment of my imagination.
Something came to mind–Joy has a photographic memory and would remember the faces and people she saw in the video–so if she sees them in one of her travels she will know who they are. Maybe she already has seen them–something I had to mull over since they have names and someone knows who they are. Now all they need to do is come clean and let us know the actual facts about the burn. I saw it, Joy saw it, Norb saw it and several others saw that video–there was a burn and I know that video was proof yet redacted.
It came to mind once I looked at Joy’s site and saw those two smoke columns–one at the Shrine and one beyond a good mile or so that was the Harper Canyon fire headed towards Peeples Valley–something we had witnessed before ascending to top out the Weavers.
Joy,
1. I hardly think almost six (6) years qualifies as expecting some answers NOW!
2. I haven’t “discovered” anything since I started participating on this blog. I have however, been made “aware” of too many things to list in this format by my participation here and all of those things I have detailed on this blog as we have moved along at our breakneck pace. And many of those things have altered my initial perception of almost everything about that catastrophic day on the YHF Disaster, and all of those alterered perceptions, conclusions and assumptions have also detailed on this thread.
3. I didn’t say RTS was taken to Messier 45 by aliens it be probed and impregnated with an alien baby, I said Rumor Control has been reporting that fact for weeks now. In addition, “a lot of people say” (to quote President Trump) the same things about RTS, but I don’t have any first hand knowledge about his alien baby, or if he is even still in contact with the father or not?
Joy,
After giving it some more thought, I believe the operative word for my participation here is, “.learned.”
And the ONE thing I learned that is more important than any other is…the NWCG trained the Granite Mountain Hotshots to die by overselling and extolling the capabilities and virtues of fire shelters without balancing that training out by training them in the limitations and shortcomings of fire shelters.
How do I know I am right? I know I am right because one of the best wild land firefighting hotshot crews in the nation laid down to be burned alive in an area about the size of a three car garage when they needed as much as 16.5 acres to survive death and serious injuries. That’s how I know I’m right.
That was an April Fool–yet maybe not. Thinking of the sadness in all this how those young men were sacrificed because of the errors and hubris of the fire gods who seem so aloof and perched upon their pedestals of paper machete while the fire is consuming near by. The truth will hurt quite a number of them and deflate the ego trips–those taking in accolades for what was done at Yarnell that killed the GMHS crew should be hanging their heads in shame. The game is up, the facts are out and they are not pretty. Yet the only silver lining is that truth prevails to help those that denied it to understand the folly of the cover up of such a horrendous disaster of the mass killing of the GMHS crew. Truth will save future lives and bring closure to some of those who are left with the whys in their minds as to the reason for the loss of their loved ones. I know that feeling and I have never gotten real closure on my son’s death–a young man with a great future yet snuffed out. God had nothing to do with these deaths–Jesus is a life giver, never a life taker yet the devil and his minions are fast at work to hide the life giving truth that we must all abide with to gain peace.
How many of us have failed to do our jobs properly at times and when young lives are at stake then how of utmost importance it is to follow and observe the proper manner to insure the safety of those young ones. I know in my children’s cases I was ever protective to see them safe and to continue their lives as best they could. Those young men were the children of their bosses but they were failed –their lives sacrificed to motives only really known to the men that failed them. Certainly those young men deserved the honours given to them but they also deserved the truth as to the real reasons for their deaths. Likewise the parents, the siblings, the friends and loved ones and the public deserve the truth.
It reminds me of the couple whose Marine son was killed in action. He was awarded accolades and they were told he was killed in action by the enemy and given Honorable awards for his service. But they for some reason did not believe the story and they found out by investigation that he was shot by friendly fire if there can be such a thing. They returned the honours because they were based upon a lie. So in this world there are Honorable people who rather have the truth than have their son’s story based upon a lie.
We see the same at Yarnell–to much based upon falsehoods. Too many smucks involved in the coverup of all the facts, yet the very ones that are working at revealing what happened are being dismissed as the smucks. Some, especially those guilty of the coverup and hiding of facts they know, are doing every thing possible to keep a lid on the truth.
Joy has said she has the facts that many will not want to hear and she is soon to reveal them. Perhaps she has reason to suffer some paranoia so she has those facts where if something were to happen to her then they will be revealed anyway. I do not have the facts–I do know there was a burn but I do not know the names of those that were drip torching at the Shrine. I do know that the burning was before the men died and I also know how quickly a burn at the Shrine would ascend to where the men were. I have no idea whether the men that were burning knew about the location of the GMHS crew and I think they did not. But I also know an 11 mph fire as Willis suggested it was moving would go from the Shrine to the Helms in less than 6 minutes. I think the 11 mph figure was just like the rest of the data put forth–short of how fast that fire was moving and likely by at least a factor of 2 and maybe even three. A 40-50 mph wind moves fire amazingly fast, especially in dense dead and dehydrated vegetation such as we saw with Yarnell 2013 under a fire watch of extreme danger–even declared so with written documents that were also redacted from the Forest information site.
So you can call the bosses heroes, you can say God had his hand in this and you can make up anything you would like but I think be there a devil he would be the culprit whispering in so many ears.
I do not believe you will have to hold your breath for very long now==April fools day has passed.
**
** 27 WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS KILLED ALL AT ONCE ( IN CHINA )
Details are still coming in… but ( perhaps? ) a new candidate to replace the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire as “The Greatest Tactical Blunder in Wildland Firefighting History’?
Similar circumstances.
May they all Rest In Peace.
The New York Times
Article Title: 30 Die Fighting Forest Fire in China
Published: April 1, 2019 – By Steven Lee Myers
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/01/world/asia/china-fire-sichuan.html
From the article…
————————————————————————————-
BEIJING — A forest fire in southwestern China turned deadly over the weekend when winds shifted unexpectedly, trapping firefighters and local officials in a maelstrom. The bodies of 30 people who could not escape were found on Monday, officials announced, even as the fire continued to burn out of control.
Of those reported killed, 27 were firefighters and three were local officials, according to reports in state media, which were limited and contradictory at times. There were no immediate reports about the cause of the fire, nor its size.
Among those who died were the chief of a regional forestry bureau in Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture in Sichuan Province, and his deputy, state media reported. The officials had traveled to the scene of the fire, which broke out on Saturday in a remote location at altitudes nearing 13,000 feet, and had not been heard from since.
The tragedy could focus new attention on the training and equipment of China’s firefighters. The main service was transferred in 2018 from the People’s Armed Police to the Ministry of Emergency Management. Some firefighters viewed the reorganization as representing a potential loss of prestige and benefits.
“The advancement of technology in recent years should have provided them with better safety guarantees than before,” the official China Daily wrote on Monday evening, referring to the latest fire and the deadly blaze in 2015. “But the two fires in Tianjin and Sichuan have exposed that there is still a long way for China to go to modernize its firefighting system.”
————————————————————————————-
WTKTT, Thanks for posting this article on the devastating China wildfire.
I recently came across these articles on the late-1800s and early-1900s wildfires in the Northeastern US like the Great Chicago Fire and the Peshtigo Fire that the authors claim were caused by meteor shower fragments.
Source:
THUNDERBOLTS.INFO EXECUTIVE EDITORS: David Talbott, Wallace Thornhill MANAGING EDITOR: Michael Armstrong CONTRIBUTING EDITORS: Dwardu Cardona, Ev Cochrane, C.J. Ransom, Don Scott, Rens van der Sluijs, Ian Tresman WEBMASTER: Michael Armstrong Copyright 2006: thunderbolts.info
“The Comet and the Chicago Fire For nearly one and a half centuries, the cause of the most notorious fire in U.S. history has been a source of “heated” controversy. Some researchers suggest that a disintegrating comet ignited the blaze. But the electrical theorists say that evidence most often ignored offers the best clues. “With the heat increased the wind, which came howling across the prairie, until at last there arose a perfect hurricane. Mighty flakes of fire, hot cinders, black, stifling smoke, were driven fiercely at the people, and amid the terrible excitement hundreds of them had their very clothes burned off their backs, as they stood there watching with tearful eyes the going down of so many houses”. — James Goodsell’s History of the Great Chicago Fire, October 8, 9, and 10, Published 1871 by J.H. and C.M. Goodsell.”
“Sunday evening, October 8, 1871 marked the beginning of one of the most devastating fires in U.S. history. Legend has it that “The Great Chicago Fire” resulted from an agitated cow kicking over a lantern in “Mrs O’Leary’s barn”. The dry leaves and parched wood of Illinois in early autumn were the perfect kindling for a wildfire, and the fire spread with extraordinary rapidity, consuming homes and buildings, leaping from rooftop to rooftop with the speed of a locomotive. Between October 8 and 10, an estimated 350 people perished. The fire destroyed the homes of up to one-third of the city’s population, about 1,600 stores, 60 factories, and 28 public buildings. Four square miles of the city burned to the ground. Contrary to popular folklore, the Chicago fire is not the worst in U.S. history. It was not even the worst to occur on October 8 that year. The same evening—in fact, at the same time, about 9:30 —a fierce wildfire struck in Peshtigo, Wisconsin, over 200 miles to the north of Chicago, destroying the town and a dozen other villages. Estimates of those killed range upward from 1200 to 2500 in a single night. It was not the Chicago fire but the simultaneous “Peshtigo Fire” that was the deadliest in U.S. history. And there is more. On the same evening, across Lake Michigan, another fire also wreaked havoc. Though smaller fires had been burning for some time—not unusual under the reported conditions—the most intense outburst appears to have erupted simultaneously with the Chicago and Peshtigo fires. The blaze is said to have then burned for over a month, consuming over 2,000,000 acres and killing at least 200. Concerning the Michigan outburst, it is reported that numerous fires endangered towns across the state. The city of Holland was destroyed by fire and in Lansing flames threatened the agricultural college. In Thumb, farmers fled an inferno that some newspapers dubbed, “The Fiery Fiend.” Reports say that fires threatened Muskegon, South Haven, Grand Rapids, Wayland, reaching the outskirts of Big Rapids. A steamship passing the Manitou Islands reported they were on fire. ”
Feb 07, 2006
The Chicago Fire (2)
Where was Comet Biela?
https://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/060207biela.htm
Feb 09, 2006
The Chicago Fire (3)
Human Testimony Reconsidered
“All investigators of the Chicago fire and its devastating regional counterparts rely on human testimony. But how should we view such testimony when it suggests things that are not currently believed? Good science will not ignore witnesses when, in unison, they suggest new lines of investigation.”
https://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/060209chicagofire.htm
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 1, 2019 at 9:43 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT, Thanks for posting this article on the devastating China wildfire.
UPDATE
The fire that killed them all was fully contained today.
No more details ( yet ) on how it actually happened other than the initial “sudden wind change” report(s).
SFGATE ( San Francisco )
Firefighters contain fire in China’s mountains where 30 died
Updated 9:37 pm PDT, Monday, April 1, 2019
https://www.sfgate.com/news/world/article/Firefighters-contain-fire-in-China-s-mountains-13733884.php
From the article…
————————————————————————————
BEIJING (AP) — Firefighters on Tuesday had contained a blaze high in the rugged forested mountains of western China that claimed the lives of 30 of their colleagues, in one of the worst disasters for the emergency services in recent years.
State media say open flames had been extinguished and only a few areas continued to emit smoke with no further threat of the fire spreading.
Recommended Video
The bodies of the dead firefighters were brought to the town of Xichang in Sichuan province, while three helicopters had brought in reinforcements to extinguish the blaze.
Changing winds Sunday apparently trapped the 27 firefighters and three helpers who were battling the blaze in a remote area at an altitude of 3,800 meters (12,500 feet), according to the Ministry of Emergency Management. Despite attempts at a rescue, all 30 were confirmed dead on Monday afternoon.
Most of the dead were in their 20s, although at least two were teenagers, according to state media reports. One had recently married.
————————————————————————————
Incredibly tragic.
Newest post on http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com website
(https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/blog)
“What dangers lie within thin their claims of invented “truth(s)” of what occurred on June 30, 2013, that were created and proselytized by those little nagging mosquitoes of our lives?”
Be sure to follow WTKTT link to his analysis and breakdown of the McDonough Memphis spew
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on March 27, 2019 at 9:14 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Be sure to follow WTKTT link to his analysis and breakdown
>> of the McDonough Memphis spew
That “Reply” to Rocksteady down below…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-477633
…just details SOME of the “low hanging fruit” in Brendan’s recent Memphis on-camera “retelling” of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
What is NOT mentioned in that list of his new exaggerations, fibs and outright lies is, of course, the BIG LIE that he is now including in his “new story”.
And that has to do with the overall reason he seems to want his listeners to believe about why his crew died on June 30, 2013.
According to Brendan’s “new” story… the “listener” is supposed to now believe it was simply because they were given bad information.
In a nutshell.. Brendan presented it like this in his recent “Memphis” TV interview…
1. The FIRST weather alert said there would be 50-60 mile-per-hour winds and a complete reversal of the fire… in about TWO HOURS.
NOTE: That is,of course, NOT what the first weather alert said… but I’m talking now about simply what Brendan is SAYING and wanting his “listeners” to believe.
2. The SECOND weather alert came about ONE HOUR later… and now said the same thing, but that it was still “on schedule” as per the first alert and would now arrive in ONE HOUR.
3. His ‘crew’ thought they had that ONE HOUR to do whatever ( like move to town )… but then what was supposed to happen in ONE HOUR actually happened in just FIFTEEN MINUTES.
So it was all just ‘bad information’ being given to his crew over the radio.
No mention of the fact that his “crew” had the BEST view of the fire and what it was doing just short of actually being up in an airplane that day.
No mention of them ( apparently ) not clearly communicating their strategic objectives AND their tactical route decisions.
No mention of them not posting a lookout, even when they KNEW they were going to lose sight of the fire by dropping into a blind box canyon filled with explosive fuel.
Nope.
Just “they were told things that turned out to be wrong”.
That’s NOW the way Brendan is just “summing up” what happened.
I think FBAN Byron Kimball would be the most offended by this “new” summary being told by Brendan.
HE was doing his job that day… and doing it well.
Thanks for the additional clarification WTKTT.
Here are several “why” questions for you Gary to help you understand
This is one of my favorite quotes from Joy’s website of the most recent http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations..com post:
“Why would people loudly and publicly proclaim themselves as victims? Perhaps a better question, based upon the level of secondary gain, attention, protection and support received by these people, is why wouldn’t they? With all of the attention on the issue, why are we surprised when people are exaggerating, using, or downright lying, about victimization? Of course, when we attach benefits to identification as a victim, we will hear from more victims, both real and exaggerated.”
( Psychology Today – The Culture of Victimhood -Hoaxes, Trigger Warnings and Trauma-Informed care. Posted Jun 28, 2014 )
Yes indeed, I allege that McDo-not / McDid-not is riding the self-imposed victim train for all it’s worth.
No way would he agree to voluntarily offer the truth about what occurred … and no way would he agree to be deposed under oath several times …
And yet, he’ll benefit financially by writing a book and profit from that and profit from the numerous and ongoing public speaking engagements on the book and now his latest endeavors.
WHEN will he open up and tell us the truth about his so-called “Brothers.?”
I allege that I here are the very same “Brothers” you dishonor and do a disservice to as well as all current or future WFs and FFs that deserve the truth. And we may as well include the families, friends, and loved ones of the GMHS “Brothers” as well as the American and international public that deserves to know.
And all of this has absolutely nothing to do with a storm being the cause.
It comes from the GMHS attitude that a third year Crewmember has that Fire Order #10 is “hillbilly and “old” and that he felt they were “a lot smarter” than that.
And it comes from the third year Crewmember attitude and actions to consider deploying a fire shelter in a chosen deployment zone near the Old Grader site rather than hike up to the nearby “good black” within several hundred yards of lookout shade …
No high-dollar fees for that truth-telling engagement needed Mr. McDo-not …
Why? I did follow the link and I still have the same question. Why? I know I’m not the sharpest Pulaski in the tool rack but why?
Why what?
Why follow this link?
Newest post on http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com website
I can’t figure out what I am supposed to get out of it? I obviously love non sequitors, rabbit trails, fluff, side stories, and YouTube links that don’t have anything to do with the YHF Disaster, but I hate riddles and things I can’t understand. So…why go to that website and that link in particular?
This story is so much easier to understand and makes a lot more sense to me.
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLggQeE9sIdm60HOiLijdJ_duUyIQ3D17a
Pretend I am a slow witted buckle dragger grunt and groudpounder who thought all there was to being a hotshot was;
1. Cutting line and burning it out, or
2. Cutting line and backfiring it, or
3. Cutting line, burning it out and backfiring it.
4. Repeat steps 1 – 3 as often as was necessary and then mopping it up five chains in and coldtrailing the line all while following orders within my crew’s chain of command without question unless they were fucking up, or giving orders I expected to be followed without question unless I was about to fuck up.
5. Finally…go to the bar and talk about the last fire, the next fire, or some other fire and show up the next dat ready to do it all over again while living a simple and relatively joyful life.
Oh…and welcome back from M45 or wherever the fuck you were. How did your probing go? Are you sore? Did it hurt? Did you really have an alien baby like the word on the street said you were? What did you name it? Are you rally going to teach it to ski and send it to NAU? Do you know the father? Why can you understand how Joy’s brain works but I can’t? Are you that much smarter then I am and it is because she is so much smarter than I am? Have the two of you started your own Mensa International chapter?
“knuckle dragger”
Oh…and one more thing. It’s alright.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UMVjToYOjbM
OK, just one more for now. I really like your executive summary for Sad Sack. Keep up the good work!
And for everyone who is NOT eligible to join Mensa with RTS and Joy, Rumor Control has reported for weeks now that M45, which is also known as the Pleiades star cluster or the Seven Sisters, is where the aliens took Fred to PROBE and impregnate him with his alien baby. But…you know how Rumor Control is.
Joy,
I saw your prayers on your web site so I prayed to God on your behalf. God wanted me to tell to go ahead and write everything you know about YHF Disaster here on IM…tick tock.
God loves you, but God has an eternity to get this wrapped up, but God knows no one else does, so…di di mau most ricky tick and get it done before God gets really pissed off at you. That is all…carry on,
Certain the truth is here on IM–thanks Gary. However, if you click on the RTS site at the very beginning it leads you to Joy’s Blog and some very important photos of the burn out at the Shrine. You can see the main Peeples Valley Fire in its proper position on the right and in the Harper Canyon area–a place that Joy and I hiked with that young author Josh Eells. To the left is a gap and obvious separation of the two fire fires–the one in the distant Harper Canyon and the fire on the left in the near Shrine Area. I think the time on the photos 4:13 and maybe 4:15.
It is pretty hard to say there was not a burn in the Shrine area when you observe those photos closely and especially if you happen to know the area. What I was seeing atop the two track corresponded to the fire in the Peeples Valley direction and the Harper Valley canyon area. Joy and I were already on the west side of the Weavers (I believe we topped out about 1:PM but check with Joy for exact time) when any burn would have been started in the Shrine area so we would have missed the beginning of the burn. But it is pretty plain the picture is showing two different burns and smoke columns separated by some distance and in two different areas–Shrine on the left and Harper Canyon on the right.
This site will always remain the priority for truth simply because of its early foundation and the credentials of the men and women–mostly long time wild land fire fighters and managers.
John Daugherty, who I had the honour to hike with has never throttled the truth nor the right to opinion. He deserves the highest commendation for allowing those concerned to continue to work at revealing truth and exposing falsehoods about the Yarnell incident on this site. John has spent excessive time and many trips at his own expense, several of his excursions I had,with Joy, met with him in his quest to get facts about the Yarnell deaths and get those out to the public. He was ever ready to interview people involved to get more of the facts about the cover up.
I am certain there are other sites that are helping to solve the mystery of the deaths–some perhaps not so unbiased as this site but still yet contributing to the welfare of the wild land fire fighter. No human deserves the way the young GMHS were led to their deaths–and that is what this site is all about–changing situations that caused those deaths.
I also am a victim–and I know there are other victims of the wild land fire at Yarnell. And no, I am not that cry baby victim–I am one who was an unknowing guinea pig. We suffered the big business, government urgency, and whatever excuses were available to put us and other people in harms way concerning Uranium mining. But time and education on all these matters takes us from victim to being empowered to speak out and do our best to change things. Certainly those 17 young wild land fire fighters that died under orders from superiors were victims, although they likely did not realise it.
Men go to work thinking things those that lead them would look out for their safety and best interests. That is not always so as proven at Yarnell and as I have seen at times in my experience as a hard rock miner. During the mining of Uranium much safety procedure was skirted that caused injury and death because of the “need” of the nation. Signs would come down in high radiation areas on swing and graveyard where ventilation was inadequate. I have learned since that we were working in areas where a shift was equal to several hundred x-ray every day. Gamma ray radiation is very damaging to cells–but we were being sacrificed for the better good, at least in someone’s eyes–but most of us had no clue and the more ignorant we remain, the more production the company gets. Safe procedures take time–and time is highly valuable in production. In the same way places like Cedar City, Utah and others along that route east from Mercury, Nevada suffered fall out from all those atomic blasts which totalled 193 and 125 above ground Atomic Bomb blasts, with even one a hydrogen bomb blast. Those people have high incidence of cancer–more victims but most are not cry babies but some are damned sick and people angered to have to be subjected unknowingly to such malicious work by those that knew the facts.
We have a chemical world–and it is great that people of the ilk of John Daugherty go out of their way to expose these mining companies and others involved in satisfying their greed with no concern for the environment or health of the public. Damn these companies that hide their chemicals under trade secret laws. How can anyone dump this chemical soup on people with any good conscience? Yet they go right on doing it with no concern–their greed outweighs their conscience.
So we are grateful to see people who are beyond greed and power mongering without conscience. Some can not be bought when it comes to facing the facts and revealing them–and those that can not stand the truth will hide their heads in the sand–they will avoid this site for certain.
OK, thanks for the tip Sonny.
**
** THE 2013 YARNELL HILL FIRE TIME-LAPSE VIDEO
**
** AS SEEN FROM BOTH THE ORIGINAL CONGRESS LOCATION
** AND FROM THE YARNELL SIDE.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE ) post on January 21, 2019 at 4:31 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> WTKTT subsequently also said::
>>
>> “Keep in mind, though, that Matt Oss’s Yarnell Fire video was a TIME-LAPSE.
>>
>> It didn’t happen AS quickly as the video shows.”
>>
>> Although Oss’es time-lapse youtube video is sped-up some, one can go to the
>> settings icon on the youtube task-bar and slow the speed down a good bit.
>> One can slow it even more and get a fairly reasonable example of ‘real time’
>> by then continuously clicking the play/stop button.
>>
>> This has lead me to another thought, likely specific to the abilities of WTKTT.
>>
>> In the slow-down mode mentioned above, the point where the fire first crests
>> the ridge-line is visible.
>>
>> If that exact point could be identified…
It has. See BOTH of the VIDEO links below…
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> …perhaps we would have the ability to determine if the fire came up to
>> the initial descent point behind them, BEFORE it roared into the
>> deployment bowl.
This FIRST video, posted recently, used the SAIT investigator’s own ‘Figure 19’ from their own final SAIR document and showed exactly WHERE and WHEN those flames were FIRST seen ‘cresting’ the ridges…
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire – 2013 – SAIR Figure 19
YouTube Video Description: A workup of ‘Figure 19’ from the original SAIR document.
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/Jl1l8EyDric
According to the Oss time-lapse video… the FIRST flames seen cresting the ridgeline, halfway back towards the place from where they departed on their final journey, didn’t ‘appear’ until 4:43 PM.
According to the SAIR document itself… at 4:43 PM… the GM Hotshots had already been dead for about 1 minute.
The following is a NEW VIDEO that shows the same time-lapse video… but THIS time you get to see exactly WHERE and WHEN the flames crested the ridges from BOTH the original Congress-side video location AND from the OPPOSITE side… over in Yarnell itself.
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell-Fire-Time-Lapse-Video-Yarnell-View-1
YouTube Video Description: The 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire time-lapse video as seen from BOTH the original Congress location AND from the
Yarnell side. Original time-lapse video credit: Matt Oss Photography
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/2kE1OLigvZo
Thanks WTKTT for that information put out by Donut. He mentions the fire was going over the road he was to take out of there-and ashes and embers coming down as part of this–
That road he talks about is the extension of Sesame Street and how they hiked in from their vehicle. That road is in direct parallel to any fire that would have been set at the Shrine where we saw the video of the men using drip torches. It would also be a perpendicular to the reverse of the wind and approximately a half mile as the crow flies from the Shrine area. It would seem very much possible that the Shrine burn out was what Donut was witnessing to cross that road.
I believe Joy will have definite proof of the Shrine burn out–and likely the exact time and location it was started. I am of a thought that it is highly possible that it was the fire that threatened the vehicles as well.
Somehow I feel sad for Donut, the liar he proved to be by coercion –I think he was brainwashed by the system so that he was afraid to tell the truth and he started out his lies by omission of the truth and then took coaching from his superiors.
It seems that lives are pretty much expendable in that wild land fire fighting business when it comes down to the low person on the totem. It is screwed up when Donut tells us that they knew of the weather bound to reverse the fire, yet the bastards in charge of those young men ordered them down into an absolute trap of dense manzanita that a grizzly bear would have had a challenge to navigate through.
Now that is fucked up when you can risk those young lives in that manner with no conscience as to the useless and needless risk they were entertaining.
But even more unconscionable is that the whole truth would be covered up so these practices will continue.
Dr. Ted has revealed the cover up in the Mann Gulch deaths, and then he refused to sign off on the investigation of those killed in the Storm King fire when he was lead investigator. He knew he was risking his career by not signing when the investigation had not met his criteria, yet he could not leave an investigation incomplete when 14 deaths had to be explained. A tribute to him when so few have the balls to get out the truth. I can imagine the redactions were plentiful on that investigation as well–something he would never have done.
The public needs the truth–the wild land fire fighters need even more since their lives are at stake.
The movie was nice but it was garbage as so many books have been. There is only one way to make things right on the Yarnell needless killing of 19 wild land fire fighters–that is the brutal truth. It is not good to make heroes of men who needlessly killed their crew, especially when they knew the weather situation as pointed out by Donut–and they are idiots if they did not know that getting trapped in manzanita with no way out was a death knoll. So yes, we should be angry that this matter was handled like an unfortunate attempt to be saving Yarnell. That was a damn lie that every firefighter well knows was perpetrated to make the people in charge of that Yarnell disaster out as heroes with no culpability to their incredible stupidity.
Well I should not be talking to you–I am not after all a fire fighter–but I knew enough not to get trapped that day nor leave Joy to her own devices that day. I did not have the weather reports but as Donut would admit–you could see that storm and the heat was above the 100 not 85 degree mark with dry conditions in a manzanita patch that burns like gasoline once it gets a fire behind it.
But beyond the 19 deaths do not forget that a third of the people of Yarnell have died since the two fires of Yarnell, 2013 and the Tenderfoot Fire at Yarnell of 2015. Unheard of that one out of three people die within five years of the Yarnell fire and that equals the deaths cigarettes cause only much faster–but then fish die immediately after being doused with the chemical retardants–humans take a bit longer–it affects the respiratory system and the resulting chemicals cause all sorts of maladies including heart attacks, cancer , lung diseases, and god knows what else since there is a big percentage hidden (5-15% chemicals by trade secret). Does that not remind you of the method of cover up that the 19 had as to the real reason they died? And if you want to think these companies that douse you with their orange retardant are any better than cigarette companies in hiding the real truth of their chemicals then you were born yesterday. Billions are at set to be lost if the truth is known–and just as the cigarette companies, they will continue spreading their pollutants as long as possible no matter how many are sickened or killed from it.
I was glad to be of some small help to Gary on his book. Mining and fire fighting are alike in their dangers–it is enough the dangers from the work itself–but when you have managers that know the dangers and kill you anyway then fire fighting takes the cake.
Oh and congratulations to Joy for her grit in staying in such a situation. I do wonder how she must feel going to a Eric Marsh memorial academy of learning about fire fighting knowing that Eric Marsh was one of the main players causing the death of his crew. Good God, now that takes grit to go there–something I could never be able to stomach with what we know about Marsh and his part in the death of those young heroes.
Reply to Charlie post on March 24, 2019 at 10:55 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Thanks WTKTT for that information put out by Donut.
>> He mentions the fire was going over the road he was to take out of
>> there-and ashes and embers coming down as part of this–
>>
>> That road he talks about is the extension of Sesame Street and how
>> they hiked in from their vehicle. That road is in direct parallel
>> to any fire that would have been set at the Shrine where we saw the
>> video of the men using drip torches. It would also be a perpendicular
>> to the reverse of the wind and approximately a half mile as the crow
>> flies from the Shrine area. It would seem very much possible that the
>> Shrine burn out was what Donut was witnessing to cross that road.
Well.. except for the fact that what Brendan Mcdonough said during his recent Memphis television interview is simply NOT TRUE.
The fire was NOT “crossing that road” in the timeframe of Brendan’s escape from his lookout position.
Brendan actually said ( on camera )…
“And so I was on my way out. Fire starts to pick up a little bit and I can see it comin’ across the road I was supposed to go out on.”
Total fiction.
Unlike the bullshit way this was depicted in the movie… Mcdonough and Frisby were able to easily make it all the way back east on that two-track road from the old grader area to the top of the Sesame clearing area ( where the GM command vehicles were staged ) without encountering any ‘fire” on that road.
Brendan’s OWN PHOTOGRAPHS, which he took at 3:49 PM after ARRIVING ( safely ) back where the GM command vehicles were staged, prove that his own recent statement is totally false.
Those photographs are here ( where they have always been ) in the public evidence folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADfRvBkDs_EsAnIo0kKVU_2a/Photos%20and%20Video/Brendan%20McDonough%20Photos?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I believe Joy will have definite proof of the Shrine burn out–and
>> likely the exact time and location it was started.
Maybe so.
There seems to be no doubt that Joy “knows things” that haven’t been made public yet… but as she has said over and over again… she will reveal what she wants ( and only IF she wants ) “in her own time”. Fair enough.
Also… in case no one has said so… “Thank You” for sticking with that recent discussion about these ‘manual burnout’ mysteries that have always been lingering in the background ever since the incomplete SAIR report was published.
Nothing was proven either way by that recent recap… but at least it ended up being a good ’roundup’ of what IS ( and is NOT ) currently known about these mysterious ‘manual burnout’ reports.
At least FOUR different people have now independently confirmed seeing this mysterious ‘Shrine video’ ( before it disappeared ), and I believe there was a general consensus among the people that say they saw it that the exact location of the video was right there by that ‘rock wall’, on the Waltraud property, about 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement turns to dirt at the west end of the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot.
And yes, the TIME is also still something very important to try and establish, since depending on WHEN this all supposedly took place lies the key to even beginning to determine whether there was any chance at all that it could have had anything to do with what eventually transpired out in the box canyon.
If I recall the discussion below correctly… we all took a good shot at trying to establish a TIME for this mysterious video… but there was never any consensus about that. There was too much disagreement among the people who say they saw the video about whether the “wind was whipping the trees” to use that as any kind of TIME indicator.
But regardless of any ‘mysterious video’… I still believe one of the best ( still existing ) pieces of evidence that SOMETHING weird happened out at the Shrine Road Youth Camp area was the actual RECORDED statement from Blue Ridge Hotshot Trueheart Brown as he, himself, was evacuating the Shrine area.
At 4:37 PM, on Sunday, June 30, 2013, and just two minutes before Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY call was about to hit the Air-To-Ground radio channel, Blue Ridge Hotshots Superintendent Brian Frisby and Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown were filmed arriving at the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot in their Polaris Ranger UTV.
They had just finished ‘chasing’ everyone out of the Shrine Road Youth Camp area, due to the fireline now coming over the ridges in that area, and they are ‘bringing up the rear’ and are the last ones out of that area.
As they pull up to the parking lot, Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd are already ‘staged’ there to meet them.
Aaron Hulburd is, at this point, filming everything that is happening.
Frisby and Brown pull up to them and stop, and Brown is the first one to speak.
Brown says “Hey there” to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, and the conversation between them begins.
The full video containing this exchange between Brown and Yowell is here…
Aaron Hulburd Video Title: M2U00264.MP$
http://youtu.be/t75k7o_L6B8
Here is an exact transcript of the start of that conversation, at +3:06 into the video…
—————————————————————————————-
+3:06 ( 1636.29 / 4:36.29 )
(BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Hey there ( guy ).
+3:07 ( 1636.30 / 4:36.30 )
(KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): What time is it? Is it dark, or what?
+3:08 ( 1636.31 / 4:36.31 )
(BR Captain Trueheart Brown): It IS dark ( up here ).
+3:09 ( 1636.32 / 4:36.32 )
(KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): How ya doin’, guy?
+3:12 ( 1636.35 / 4:36.35 )
(BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!
+3:14 ( 1636.37 / 4:36.37 )
(Aaron Hulburd): We figured you guys were bringin’ up ( the rear ).
—————————————————————————————–
So the very FIRST thing BR Captain Brown ‘reports’ to Yowell, after having just chased all the other firefighters out of the Shrine Youth Camp area, is the following…
“Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!”
The “God DAAAMN!” is with full vocal emphasis on Brown’s part.
He’s a professional Hotshot, who has been to a lot of fires and seen a lot of people do a lot of stupid things… but what he ( apparently ) just witnessed out in the Shrine Road Youth Camp area still elicits a strong ( and incredulous ) “God DAAAMN! from him… as if the ‘stupidity’ meter just went off the end of even HIS chart.
As was discussed down below… that was a VERY specific thing that Brown said.
He did NOT say…
“making sure idiots aren’t getting burned up” ( by the approaching fire ).
He specifically said…
“making sure idiots aren’t burning THEMSELVES OUT” ( by something THEY were doing? ).
That still sounds for all the world like Brown just had to STOP some other group of firefighters from doing some kind of poorly-planned and/or badly-executed manual burnout.
Maybe someday we will know what Trueheart Brown really meant by that emphatic statement he made to Jason Clawson just moments after evacuating from the Shrine Youth Camp area.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I am of a thought that it is highly possible that it was the fire
>> that threatened the vehicles as well.
At this point ( and based on other already-existing photographic evidence )… it’s not likely.
The “fire that threatened the ( GM ) vehicles” still appears to be the same fireline that was had already been approaching from the northwest, and photographed by both Brendan Mcdonough ( from the GM vehicles themselves ) and by Christopher Mackenzie from up at the ‘Last Rest Spot’.
Correction for above…
I said…
———————————————————————————-
Maybe someday we will know what Trueheart Brown really meant by that emphatic statement he made to Jason Clawson just moments after evacuating from the Shrine Youth Camp area.
———————————————————————————-
Blue Ridge Hotshot Trueheart Brown was speaking to PNF employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ( and NOT PNF employee Jason Clawson ) when Brown said…
“Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!”
According to the video… Jason Clawson was already engaging in a conversation with Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby when Brown and Yowell started THEIR conversation, circa 4:37 PM.
So my paragraph above SHOULD have looked like this…
——————————————————————————–
Maybe someday we will know what Trueheart Brown really meant by that emphatic statement he made to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell just moments after evacuating from the Shrine Youth Camp area.
——————————————————————————–
Thanks again WTKTT–It does sound like Trueheart Brown was watching a burn out and worried that whoever was doing the burnout was likely in danger of being caught by it. We may soon get confirmation from Joy and whatever evidence she has on the matter.
I will stand by what I saw and investigated with Joy in the video when we took measures to be sure what we saw was that rock thing above the Shrine. Also, since and with knowledge of how the wild land fire fighters work, it was almost certain they would have mandated a back fire or burn there above the Shrine. They had the wind blowing away from Yarnell and the Shrine area and even if the wind direction would change, it would be directed toward the bullet proof Helms property and that canyon of death.
You can see those that were stationed at the Shrine knew nothing of where the GMHS crew was by their statements on video shortly after the men died. Someone did, but it was not information available to at least those that were being videoed and burning near the Shrine.
Yes it is hard to tell when Donut is truthful–maybe the PTSD has screwed his thinking up–or maybe he has orders from headquarters? He has to stay with his BS story as best he can–that will change in details since he has forgotten how he said things in earlier times. Very little to go by on his testimony but some bits and pieces might be fact.
Certain that much justice is being done here for those loved ones in getting at the truth–also quite revealing to people working under a system where your safety depends upon the boss you have. There are plenty of reliable wild land fire fighter bosses but then you can see that there are a few who would break all the rules and risk their men’s lives–even kill them such as Marsh and Steed did. Perhaps there will be more attention given in the matter of hiring those that manage.
Much is yet uncovered–much unsaid that a few know. We need a good documentary directed by people of the wisdom about wild land fire fighting and what went wrong to kill those young GMHS firefighters.
There are several hundreds of years of wild land fire fighting experience found on this very site. Who can challenge the wisdom of Gary, WTKTT, RTS, Dr. Putnam, Woodsman, Norb, JD, Honda, and the many retired wild land fire fighters that I have not mentioned that post here. This is the documentary that will change the way people are fighting these fires and stop the foolish killing of those young wild land firefighters as was done with the GMHS crew. This documentary would put a plug in the mouths of the ones that continue to lie in order to present themselves as heroes at Yarnell . Instead it would facilitate change, demand that men’s lives come before structures and that safety rules be followed stringently, most certainly when young lives are at stake.
I am one that if you believe you want to break safety rules the let that be on you, but when you break them and risk lives other than your own then you ought to be brought to justice just as a man who gets blind drunk then drives his vehicle into another killing the occupants.
I did see that and helped pull a lady out of a car that had been broadsided by a drunk who must have been doing a good fifty off a dirt road onto the main highway with a heavy Chevy Blaser 11. He was thrown out on the street but he had killed the driver of a BMW–my son Ted and I used a high lift jack to pry the door open to get the passenger out–we were certain that car was going catch fire. The drunk survived and received a five year sentence, not a heroes flag for his bad actions. I was at that time working as a counselor for those convicted of drunk driving –Alamogordo, NM so that was how I knew of the crime and the results.
It is always a breath of fresh air knowing that so many are concerned of getting it right on the Yarnell deaths that were not an accident or God’s will–Your efforts are appreciated and though it sometimes seems frustrating, I believe the rewards will be to many as truth is revealed in time.
**
** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH’S RECENT TELEVISION INTERVIEW
** IN MEMPHIS, ON FEBRUARY 26, 2019
Just recently, former Granite Mountain hotshot Brendan McDonough had another one of his ongoing paid speaking engagements. This one was for a foundation in Memphis, Tennessee, and it took place on February 26, 2019.
A local television station did a video interview with Brendan as part of the local promotion for the event.
In that video-interview, Brendan basically ‘retells the story’ of what he experienced in Yarnell, Arizona, on June 30 2013.
There are LOTS of places in this new “story” that Brendan is telling where he really goes off the rails and it becomes almost pure ‘made up’ fiction, rather than fact.
There are times when the “story” he is now telling doesn’t even match anything in either his ADOSH testimony, or what he wrote in his OWN BOOK.
More about that later… first things first.
Here is a link to the original video interview, followed by a full transcript of this ‘new story’ that Brendan is now telling…
YouTube Channel: Local24Memphis
Video Title: WEB EXTRA: More with Granite Mountain Hotshot Brendan McDonough
Published: February 26, 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWHSGaPx-7I&feature=youtu.be
Full transcript
——————————————————————————————————–
I believe my story is…. it is tragic… but it is full of hope and I’ve been blessed with that… and it… ya know… started as a young child and, ya know, we fast-forward to this… this defining moment of June thirtieth, two-thousand and thirteen, and…
So we wake up and… my roommate, he’s on the crew… we get… we get awake and we go to the… the fire station, ya know, five-thirty AM… and got coffee goin’… got lunch packed and we’re ready to go.
And so we get there… we see the rest of the guys and we’re drinkin’ coffee and… uhm… about fifteen, twenty minutes in we get a call to go Yarnell. It’s about an hour away from home and I’m sittin’ there thinkin’… Okay… hour away from home… it’s a small little fire… we’re gonna be home for Fourth-of-July.
This’ll be perfect.
As a hotshot, you’re never home for Fourth-of-July.
And so that was kinda the… the big-push, ya know. Everyone’s got little kids and it’s like… man… I wanna see the fireworks with our kids.
So we get drivin’ down there, and as any good hotshot would do, I… I take a nap. Fall asleep anywhere. I don’t know how long we could be workin’. Twenty-four hours straight. Thirty-six hours straight. So I get some sleep… and I remember wakin’ up probly about twenty minutes before we get there and I start lookin’ around at the terrain and… ya know… what… what we’re seeing and what we’re kinda gonna be up against and… ya know… how big could this fire potentially get.
And so we get to the town and… so… my superintendent, Eric Marsh, he gets a briefing and he goes “Hey… I got somethin’ for us” and we’re gonna go ahead and get a heel on this fire… and that just means at the… the starting point, we’re gonna start building an anchor, and we’re gonna build a safe spot to start from. We gotta have somewhere to go from… and so that was… that was our task.
And so… ah… we grabbed our packs, grabbed some extra water, grabbed everything we need and we started hikin’, like any other day.
And so we start gettin’ up there and I remember it bein’ humid.
And I know ya think… ya know… Prescott Arizona? Humid? ( he laughs ).
Tell ya… have ya ever been to Memphis?
But… it was… it was a humidity that I hadn’t felt before on a fire like that and so I just remember startin’ to sweat a lot… and so I was drinkin’ water, and we stopped about halfway, which is kinda unusual. Usually we don’t stop. It was a hot, humid day fer sure… and… uhm… took a water break and kept goin’ and we get to the top and my captain and my superintendent… Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed… they’re lookin over and they go “Hey… we need a lookout. Hey Donut…”.
That’s me. My nickname’s Donut.
They go “You wanna be a lookout today?”
I say “Yes, sir. I’d love to.”
And… uh… it was a task that I was honored to be a part of… ya know… I have responsibilities and roles and it’s a leadership role. At the time I was… I was twenty-one years old and… uhm… I was just… ya know… tryin’ to make a life for myself and my daughter and be that dad that I never had.
And so I… I felt a sense of pride when they asked me… I say “they trust me”.
And so we talked about what… what they needed, what they wanted me to do, what they wanted me to watch for on the fire.
So I said “Allright…” ya know… “I’ll see you guys later. Love ya.”
And so I start walkin’ down and I get picked up by somebody and he gives me a ride to my lookout position… and I’m watchin’ this fire… and as the day goes on I’m watchin’ it kinda pick up like any other fire… and I’m talkin’ with my superintendent and he goes “No, thank you… I appreciate it… ya know… I’m…”… uh… from the hill they were at they could see a lot of what I could see. The main thing they wanted me to see was to… to look into a canyon that they couldn’t see over.
And so I’m just hangin’ out… takin’ weather… ya know… I got a a weather kit that let’s… allows me to find out temperature, the relative humidity and what we call probability of ignition… what’s the likelihood of how fast it’s gonna burn.
And so it… it starts gettin’ hotter and hotter throughout the day and hit about lunch time and we’re seein’… ya know… eighty-plus and… uhm… the fire’s startin’ to kick up a little bit… but it’s movin’ away from us. It’s goin’ north.
So we’re pretty safe. We’re… we’re… we’re pretty good at this point.
And… uhm… I eat lunch. It’s an MRE… ya know… meals ready to eat for the military… and so I think I had like beef macaroni or somethin’. Couldn’t fix it with enough tabasco, but ( he laughs ) got it down and kept goin’ and I…
I heard over the radio… this weather event comin’ in… and it said, you know, it’s… it’s bringin’ gusts of fifty to sixty miles an hour and… uhm… it’s gonna turn the fire around… and I’m sittin’ there thinkin’… wow… that’s… that could be pretty impressive if that happens. I haven’t seen that happen too often. So I call up my captain, my supe, and I say “Hey sir… did you copy that weather?”, ya know, “I did, but what did you hear?”, and so I told him what I hear and he goes “Okay”. You know, we got a timeframe… that gives a timeframe of about TWO HOURS for this weather event.
And so… I’m sittin’ there spinnin’ my weather… and… uh… I’m watchin’ this storm come in and I… and I can see it off in the distance. I remember talkin’ to my Captain… “Hey Cap… you see that storm comin’?”… he says… “Yea… I see it comin’. Keep your eyes on it and let me know what’s going on”.
And… uhm… about an hour later… another weather event comes in and says “Hey… we got about an hour” before this weather storm comes in… and my crew’s workin’, they’re on the fire’s edge, they’re goin’ direct, they’re workin’ with helicopters… and at this point the… the fire’s moved so far north there was another town over that was threatened… and so they had started pullin’ off ‘cus they couldn’t save certain homes… and… uhm… so that’s kinda… that’s startin’ to go… gettin’ a little chaotic… and then this weather, you know, it’s gettin’ closer and closer.
And so I… it’s my time… uh… what time was it? ( He thinks for a moment ).
It was late afternoon. I’m talkin’ to my captain and I say “Hey… I think it’s a good idea for me to get outta here ‘cus the fire’s started doin’ what it was supposed to do. It started goin’ from north, to northeast, you know, it was just kinda makin’ its turn… makin’ its push… but the winds… we haven’t seen it yet. It wasn’t fifty, sixty… it just wasn’t comin’ like… like they had said at that time.
And so I was on my way out. Fire starts to pick up a little bit and I can see it comin’ across the road I was supposed to go out on.
That same gentleman that had picked me up earlier knew I was there… and so he came… I was gonna call for help and I was like… I don’t… I don’t think this is, ya know, uhm… I think I could make it… ya know… but I don’t wanna put someone else’s life at risk for my own decision.
And so… uh… as soon as I went to hit the radio button… I let go… and he pulled up.
And so he’s like… “Get in!”… ya know… “C’mon Donut!”. ( He laughs ). I’m like “Allright”.
So I throw my pack in there… and… ya know… he’s like “You wanna tell your supe what’s goin’ on?”. This is another superintendent of a different crew… and I said “Sir… why don’t you. Okay? I think you got a little more experience. Why dontcha tell him what’s goin’ on and…”.
So he’s chattin’ with him. He says “Hey… I got Donut. He’s with us. We’re gonna move your vehicles out of where they’re at. We’re gonna bring ’em in town… and we’ll see y’all in town”. Ya know… “we’ll see ya some time today”.
And so that was the last time I had talked to my superintendent.
And… uhm… so we get the vehicles in town… and so… they… ya know… the… the incident command team they’re goin’ “Hey… this fire’s startin’ to turn out on us. There’s a bunch a homes up north. We need to try and get in there and prep it”.
And so we start gettin’ up there… it’s about a five minute drive. Get our vehicles parked. I hop in with them and I’m puttin’ on my pack when we… when we finally got to where we were parked… and it couldn’t a been two minutes in that we started seein’ embers fall from the fire.
And… they’re probly… they’re pretty big. Ya know… ’bout half-dollar size start comin’ down… and so this fire’s startin’ to start everywhere and so it’s like… allright… it’s time to get outta here. This is… this is dangerous.
Uhm… no… no home’s worth it.
And so… over the radio I hear my crew and they’re… ya know… “Hey… we’re headed to our escape route. We’re on our way out”… ya know… “We’re gonna… we’re gonna meet up in town”.
So I’m like “Allright. Cool. I’ll see ya in about thirty, thirty-five minutes”.
And so at this point in time, they said “Hey… this… this weather event… you got… you got an HOUR… when they started moving.”
And… what had happened in an HOUR… happened in about ten, fifteen minutes.
So this fire had completely turned around… and it seemed like as soon as it lined up east and west… opposite of north and south, the way it was going… that wind just came in. That storm came in… and with the monsoon season that we have it’s, ya know, a heavy rain event… but sometimes it… it brings no rain… it just brings a lotta wind… and so it just pushes out these down… downward flows that can… uhm… just create its own… its own weather within a little area. Like a micro-burst, almost.
And so… this weather just started turnin’.
And we had pulled outta the… the north end of the town we were at.
We started movin’ more south to where the vehicles were.
Where… ya know… someone had reached out to my crew… and… “Hey… how you guys doin? You makin’ your way down?” “Yea… we’re makin’ our way down”.
And… uhm… I remember watchin’ this… this fire come through and it started to burn through the city… and I remember thinkin’… we’re… we’re losin’ homes right now. Uh… people are losin’ their livelihoods.
And… it’s important. Ya know. And… and… people are being evacuated.
And ya kinda feel this sense of like… did I do enough?.
Ya know? Was my efforts enough?… for what’s goin’ on?
Then I gotta… at twenty-one I’m figuring out how to check myself if like this is a natural disaster.
We find success when we find it… and when we can’t… we just… ya know… what can we change? How do we grow from it?
There’s some days you just… there’s not much you can do.
( Transcript continued next ‘Reply’ due to post-length limits )…
( McDonough interview transcript – continued )
So my crew’s makin’ their way down and this fire really just starts pickin’ up and usually smoke goes… rises… ya know… and this… this wind was so intense that it just laid over. It just created like a two-hundred foot layer of smoke that just kinda laid over an entire town.
And… uh… my superintendent called over the radio and he goes… ya know… “This is… this is Eric Marsh breaking in on the radio. We’re gettin’ ready to deploy our fire shelters”.
I remember when it hit me… I go “Man… that’s… that’s not a good place to be in right now”.
But they’ve trained for this, ya know. These guys have been in the fire service for ten, fifteen… ya know… years… twenty years… uhm… and… I… I had a lotta trust in them. I’d worked for them for two and a half years and I’d never been put in a position that I felt compromised or unsafe… and so… I was like… allright… ya know… they’re… they’re gonna get outta this. This happens… and… uhm… this is a part of firefighting. This is an aspect that does happen.
And… so we start gettin’ ready for medical and a lotta people are startin’ to get pulled outta the city. We’ve evacuated what we can evacuate. And… uh… that was it. That was the last time I heard from my supe over the radio. And… uhm… the fire had passed… and we were ready to get in there… but… homes were still burnin’. Power lines were crossin’ the road and… uh… there’s not much we could do to reach ’em and so they put a helicopter up with a… with a paramedic in there… and they find ’em… and ya hear him and he says “I’ve touched down on the ground” and you can hear the helicopter in the background… and about two minutes later he… he’s like “We got nineteen confirmed”… I’m like… “Yea. I told ya it was nineteen guys. Whadda ya mean?”
And in that split second I knew… like… they all died.
Like… nineteen men had just passed away.
The amount of shock I felt is unexplainable. That loss.
That deep love that you form with men… I call it man-love… ya know…
Man-love? Yea… man-love. Love that only men can have for one another.
For one another human being… and… it didn’t matter where you came from… what your past was like. I was a heroin addict. I was a felon… and these people took me in.
And… uh… they were gone. In the blink of an eye.
It was tough. I didn’t know what to feel.
And so there’s still… this city is still burning. There’s still a fire that’s threatening… and so… tryin’ to figure out how to get them outta there… what to do… this… this is somethin’ that just does not happen often.
And… I remember goin’ back to the buggies… and the news had started to spread… and I remember seein’ one of my brother’s cellphones in the truck ringing… and I remember thinkin’… he’s never gonna pick that up again. His wife’s never gonna hear his voice again.
And the rest was kind of a blur. For about a year.
I just did what I was asked to do and went to funerals, went to memorials, fundraisers. I didn’t get help. I’m a tough fireman. What do I need help for? Talk to somebody? Nah… let’s just go to the gym. Nah. It’s fine.
It started takin’ a serious toll on me. On my body and my mind and my family.
—————————————————————————————————–
+13:56 – END OF BRENDAN MCDONOUGH’S FEB 26, 2019 MEMPHIS VIDEO INTERVIEW
what a lying sack of shit.. gonna stop there rather than drill down into his lies
there was just a small group of in that operational area
Well then…
hmmm…
Please keep the faith everyone because I have done all I can behind the scenes to ensure it all unfolds this year versus keep on waiting…
I am working very hard on it…
Yes, I did see the ugly verbiage on the social media and all I can state is I am very concerned because if their view is such way now then when it all comes out then who is going to be there because I have no intentions of suppressing the data any further and this is because I am doing the right thing in the right manner.
I have no intent- no harm and no hate at all just need to make sure leaders are being made not gonna let a kid get chain-saw injured and it be fabricated to then it come out in the light and the kid is held accountable but nothing to the overhead even though it was the overhead who lied— it has to stop.
The truth needs to come out.
Thank you for what you’re doing here too.
I did gain some important data when I attended the Arizona Wildfire Academy and even RTS was like you are not gonna tell me??? Nope. I felt the concern belonged with administration and my instructors and the ones named only and my best friend and I stick to that only – however if there is no further communication on it than my life insurance guy and the coroners I know will be in the “know” but for now I have faith this will be handled-
Now, I am sanctioned in from the -Eric Marsh- Arizona Wildlife Academy (Embry Riddle- Prescott Arizona) as a bonafied FFT2 and heading to the next academy to be a FFT1 and S-215 and then to the next and the next…very busy schedule…
There is no stopping the data now even if I were to pass on – it is solid and set to roll out…
Thank you Gary for your extended patience
I know you had sections of frustrations.
Soon you will learn how FFs were told Be Proud – you just saved a town and to hear the background data will change it all…
Happy Spring!
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on March 16, 2019 at 8:00 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Now, I am sanctioned in from the -Eric Marsh- Arizona Wildlife
>> Academy (Embry Riddle- Prescott Arizona) as a bonafied FFT2
Congratulations!
Thank you, WTKTT
-it was not easy this week with the attacks as I saw
pure rubbish.
that is on them
but it is apparent someone who knows the person should get the pains and attend it- it is obvious.
but I did alert my overheads and instructors and my best friend and a person who handles people with those kind of issues so I did my due diligence on my end-
then I dropped the matter so I can go on to continue my education and schooling-
Be productive and keep at it.
and if it continues as it is still being reported to my email alert area…
anonymous currently-
than that again it is on them
but once it gets real with full names than I just send it over to my legal team.
I am done suppressing information.
I am done being someone else’s concern or mis-read/misunderstand me.
It takes a special breed of person to become an unbiased fire investigator.
I am ready.
I am very glad to learn basic fire terminology but I am going for more training because there is one specific Hotshot crew I am aiming to be on and that is the one my father helped behind the scenes make possible with another fella…
I will commit to ten seasons once I am on this crew as well as train up on my time off on the (not tied to an agency) Investigator path-
I never been more serious in my life.
I know within ten years every area will be uncovered on that fire.
I think some are home today rethinking their Season 2019
They should.
They really would be better to take it off and start sharing the facts because like I said it is coming out if I am alive or not…
Better for it to come from them than the way I am going to present it in raw form.
Do you know how difficult it was for me to get in that shelter a couple of times this past week-
Very-
Thank you Tanner and Emilio for being my partners that day.
Thank you again WTKTT-
I never in my life thought I would have anything to do with the Fire Industry-
It just fell on my lap June 30, 2013 and thereafter-
A person at the Academy stated on Thursday, March 14, 2019, appx. 12:32:48 PM speaking about YHFire 6-30-13: -I did not have service for 12.5 days…roads still shut down…and my phone buzzed..my work phone…it kept buzzing…then my personal phone…full…128 gigs…full…I knew them on a very personal level; the GMHS…I am scrolling through the voicemails…what happened to my situational awareness?…I can still remember…I get in my truck…I just left…I walk in and I was with Curtis Heaton…”WTF?”…Very minimal news and [he learned through text and social media]…[He went to leave and they go to a Sonic]…Heaton wanted him to go and break the news to others [and this guy couldn’t he said]…Heaton releases him and broke the news direct to him…when he gets in his truck a gal Holly (blonde Crossfit yoked out thing sitting in his driver seat (WTF?) and she says she is his driver that she was under direct orders…best leadership call…I drop off Holly off at the airport….
I just wonder if this is the same “Holly” we all know as Holly Neill-
If so then it raises some inquiries and I will have to run some audio footage I have from certain areas of my FOIA again
because there was areas of fire data I got audio footage-hmmm.
His account was much more but it detailed Eric and I figure it is best to leave that “quiet” because of the content was not really appropriate for all readers and listeners but it was his perception. Very sobering. Very raw. Very genuine.
I saw Holly many times at the Arizona Wildfire Academy (2019)-
She came up to me at social hour at the 2018 Foresters and Fire Wardens Conference and I set it straight her “behind the scene” tactics have not been forthcoming to the way she comes to me in person or email or texts or calls so I did not say any communications this week her way. She did last year state we both have different research styles.
She was the one who showed me and sent me texts of one person was at peace with me but learning today the same time I was getting these messages- Five months prior this person keeps on wanting to use me as I have intent for harm and all I got is intent for T R U T H … it has to stop because I am bringing it all out and I do mean all as time unfolds. If the book makers are awaiting the verbiage to make their “profit” (tell all) books- I plan to give it out in His time so you may be waiting…yet come to me and talk with me and if I can I will help guide you to areas- k.
Well, what she does not get I did not have to be on the scene from the start because I was on those Weavers as the “eyewitness” that fateful day and it had too many red flags so in due time the world will see but meanwhile the right folks do have it behind the scenes because this is about to get extremely thick and I am not turning back-
Thank you to the forensic team that has helped me and been my mentors through this all.
I appreciate you freely taking the time out because you knew it was the right thing to do so we can start to get this out finally.
In closing-
this link: https://wildfiretoday.com/2014/01/19/discoveries-in-yarnell-hill-fire-recordings-provide-new-information-about-location-of-eric-marsh/
I do look forward to the moment the “stob” topic is fully discussed and as well the sawyer topic…maybe Fire20+ can share her views there who is also very close to Holly and others ( I even hiked with her and Tex ate breakfast with her) and seems to have alot to say on my morning account June 30, 2013-
Fire 20+’s and family must get that I saw Eric moments before I saw him hike up to meet that man so yeah I would know it was Eric not Helitak- I do not get what you were aiming to do there but creating new metadata and camera details??? Really??? Hmmm. Strange. But stranger things have happened.
This link below is the photo I legally recently had removed because it was my photo without photo credit on a social media page without courtesy credit and approval to use it tied to negative content. Hello. Really.
https://wildfiretoday.com/2013/12/15/arizona-releases-yarnell-hill-fire-documents/
In my Fireline Mobile Technology class 3.9.19 appx 9:50am the IC – Dirk Foreman may be “old school” but he did state an unfortunate comment for my ears – he said when I asked about the challenge coin and if the instructor has to name of the 10 and 18 and he replied- “The 10 and 18 are two distinct and separate trains of thoughts…my asst is pretty adamant on basic wildland and doing those 10 and 18..I am from the other school…you should know what they are about…recognize some of it…learn ’em but if you want to repeat them word for word than go to your IRPG…remember the concept behind the 10 & 18.”
– why are we steering away from the basics and relying on this IRPG and taking it out.
from FIREHOUSE article-
The IRPG origin dates back to the original Fireline Handbook and appendices that became too cumbersome to use in field. The result was a condensed or “pocket-sized” version of the reference document that has been updated through the years to keep up with the changing dynamics of wildland incident management and complexity.
Back in 2015, there was some discussion about, whether or not, any Legal Support Organizations had taken interest in what was happening with Citizen Investigation Efforts associated with the Yarnell Hill Fire… reference to the ACLU was made on several occasions and, recently, there has been some serious discussion with one of the separate State Chapters of the ACLU. This opportunity brings us to wonder, whether or not… any of the readers of Yarnell Revelations might, also, be practicing and/or retired members of the Legal (including, Judicial) Profession… Interns and Para-Legals, included, as well. Please get back to us if you are and might be interested in discovering “how” YOU might be able to help out… ThankYOU !!!
See you over at my blog- yarnell hill revelations…
That is funny–they saved a town? Well I do think they did save downtown Yarnell and Phils home and storage unit. But in doing so the wind whipped their burnout back around and it took out most of Glen Isla and a part of the Yarnell residences as well. This is my own conjecture in that I was a witness to the torching video that was going on by the Shrine–North Yarnell and the part of Yarnell that was behind the burn were unscathed except for the Shrine and a few houses below that.
For those that had never been to Yarnell, Glen Isla and Yarnell are actually one connected community about like you would see when you pass from Dallas into Fort Worth. Glen Isla lies to the west of Yarnell proper and does have a few hills and rock formations that somewhat make a distinction. So when I say a third of the people of Yarnell have died that includes Glen Isla and when a census was taken it was 645 before the two wild land fires of 2013 and 2015. Joy is there and knows at least 98% of the people that deceased, if not 100% and on a personal level.
It is sad to have watched some very healthy people before the fire die suddenly after the massive retardant dumps that inundated the town and its surrounding environment.
I think of Raul and Teresa–so healthy and happy that lady and man–you knew they would have a long and healthy life just from their attitude and healthy living. Joy and I had had dinner with them in their modest home–Teresa was alway so vibrant and I believed her to be in her 50’s. Raul was robust and about the same age. Yet in less than a year after the fire, Joy and I visited them–Teresa was sick and had suffered a stroke–Raul was not his positive self and moving slowly. This breaks your heart to see friends like that destroyed like that–yes they are still alive I believe, though I would have to check with Joy on that.
There is Kevin–a young 45 year old–stout as a bear and healthy–did so much clean up work at Yarnell. We knew him and often conversed with him after the fire. He suddenly fell dead–cancer. How could that be I say?
Well I can name quite a number but Joy knew all these 200 that are dead and many that are now sick and will soon be dead.
Now in all this I can speak for myself as well. I was doing well enough before the fire and retardant dumps. In only a matter of months after the fire I fell dead in the VA parking lot right after seeing two cardiologists. They thought I had angina–but it was not. That VA had me in hospice and I had myself removed–My son convinced them that I am the type that wants to die at home–well if i have to kick off suddenly.
Attitude has a lot to do with life–several heart attacks later I am still alive and today I put up a 20 ft. telephone pole on top of two other telephone poles as I did yesterday. Those are to be the beams of my wrap around screened porch I am building as an add on to this trailer they call a manufactured home. No I did not have illegals to help me like when I was younger and had some mines west of here. I did it myself–but let me tell you I look like a sloth in doing this job. My breathing has diminished so much after the fire that I find my self taxed to walk the perimeter of this 4 acre plot.
One reason my three dogs were killed by the rancher–I could not get the energy up to fix my fence so my dogs got loose–and in New Mexico it is open season on dogs when a rancher sees one on his range. But I have now recovered enough from the shotgun wound to my back that I have fixed my fence enough to keep my dogs (I call them my boys) inside their property.
You could say well that shot gun wound to the back slowed you down–first off it killed me. But my return back to life I will tell you I had went and was hospitalised just before Charlie, my dog, shot me. I could barely walk across the parking lot of the hospital to get into emergency so with chest pains again and out of breath I thought here we go again, another heart attack. But a catheter to my heart said I was now ok there–instead spot on the left lung–Charlie shot out the right lung. Still I was not much worse off after removing myself from the hospital after the gunshot wound than before–well except maybe the lead shot isn’t helping much.
I am not tell this to elicit sympathy. What I am saying is that I was an unknowing victim of those retardant dumps the same as the rest of that town. Loosing 19 young firemen is bad enough and most of them deserved the accolades they received in a manner of thinking. But good lords of the Irish and include Jesus and God Almighty–to see such suffering and deaths of the people of Yarnell is a tragedy that looks akin to the dousing of people with Atomic radiation that went on for so long at Mercury, Nevada testing site where over 125 above ground bombs were exploded and the fallout drifted throughout the United States and in some concentrated so that cancers became rampant.
Another thing–I have had 9 cancers remove in the past couple months–and another to be removed in a couple days behind my ear. These were large enough that I look like scarface–maybe could be good in a Frankenstein movie. I would not look good coming out of a whore house in leiderhousen like I did in the movie Tank Girl (I was paid $70 for doing that and some damn good food–I was cutting wood for a living at that time). But the story is my background as a uranium miner could be blamed, but before these cancers were generally small–not all large. So I queried the doctor about that–he said when your immune system is taxed cancer takes off. And these cancers were going strong before Charlie shot me.
So, it is my hope that the Yarnell guinea pigs which includes me will bring to attention the deadly chemicals that the wild land fire fighters experience and anyone else exposed to these pollutants. Now you will say that you have not experienced the problems I have mentioned that Yarnellites have suffered and you have been exposed for years.
Fortunately or unfortunately young people can suffer the chemical contamination and like cigarette smokers and uranium miners–they will not see much damage to their health until later years. But the elderly and those already taxed by their immune systems will find that their golden years of life will be quickly extinquished.
These are my own personal musings–I unfortunately did not realise how destructive to health this agent orange retardant could be until I started watching people go down, including myself and began to do some research on the ingredients we know of.. To bad we cannot know the trade secret chemicals they include that perhaps average 10% of the pollutants dropped on us. Ten percent of 500,000 gallons is 5o,000 gallons of unknown chemicals dispersed about Yarnell on the first fire if the 500,000 gallon report I had is correct of orange retardant drop. Add another drop in 2015 and not only do you have the ammonium pollution but also another huge load of unknown chemical drop. Yet the environmental departments in the government see no reason for alarm or even concern–I had written the EPA.
Old Jesus and the good Irish Gods, even the Leprechaun do shake their heads at the atrocities we humans have created among ourselves. But some of us keep whittling away at these bad situations hoping to make the world safer so we can live and enjoy that American right to the pursuit of happiness.
Reply to Rocksteady post on March 16, 2019 at 1:55 pm
>> Rocksteady said…
>>
>> what a lying sack of shit..
>> gonna stop there rather than drill down into his lies
Doesn’t take a very large drill bit.
Just some of the ‘low hanging fruit’…
That same gentleman that had picked me up earlier knew I was there… and so he came.
Brendan is, of course, talking about Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby.
In his own book, Brendan finally acknowledged ( sort of ) the truth… which is that the only reason Brian Frisby accidentally ‘stumbled’ across Brendan as he was evacuating his lookout position is because Frisby had agreed to another face-to-face with Eric Marsh up near the anchor point, and Frisby was simply on his way there in that timeframe.
Frisby never headed in that direction out of any concern for Brendan’s welfare.
But now Brendan is back to trying to make people believe that Brian Frisby intentionally ‘came to get him’.
That is total fiction.
Just a few hours later, on that very same day, is when Brian Frisby was RECORDED telling PNF firefighter Jason Clawson that he ( Frisby ) had simply accidentally “stumbled across” ( Frisby’s own words ) Brendan earlier that day.
And so I was on my way out. Fire starts to pick up a little bit and I can see it comin’ across the road I was supposed to go out on.
Total fiction.
Unlike the bullshit way this was depicted in the movie… Mcdonough and Frisby were able to easily make it all the way back east on that two-track road from the old grader area to the top of the Sesame clearing area ( where the GM command vehicles were staged ) without encountering any ‘fire” on that road.
Brendan’s OWN PHOTOGRAPHS, which he took at 3:49 PM after ARRIVING ( safely ) back where the GM command vehicles were staged, prove that his own recent statement is totally false.
Those photographs are here ( where they have always been ) in the public evidence folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADfRvBkDs_EsAnIo0kKVU_2a/Photos%20and%20Video/Brendan%20McDonough%20Photos?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
And… uhm… about an hour later… another weather event comes in and says “Hey… we got about an hour” before this weather storm comes in…”
Wrong.
The ‘second weather alert’ went out over the radio that day at 3:30 PM, and FBAN Byron Kimball NEVER said it was going to take an HOUR “before the weather came in”.
He specifically said the gust fronts could arrive (quote) “within the half-hour”.
He said it TWICE ( because that was IMPORTANT information ).
That ‘second weather alert’ by FBAN Byron Kimball was actually RECORDED in one of the Panebaker Air-Study videos…
———————————————————————————-
AIR STUDY VIDEO – 20130630_153014_SEAT_EP.MOV
VIDEO STARTS AT 1529.04 ( 3:29.04 PM )
+0:37 ( 1529.41 / 3:29.41 PM )
( FBAN Byron Kimball ): Operations Abel, Fire Behavior, on TAC 1.
NOTE: Even though FBAN Byron Kimball specifically ‘calls out’ to OPS1 Todd Abel, the responder to this callout sounds more like OPS2 Paul Musser than OPS1 Todd Abel.
+0:43 ( 1529.47 / 3:29.47 PM )
( OPS1 Todd Abel or OPS2 Paul Musser ): Go ahead, Byron
+0:48 ( 1529.52 / 3:29.52 PM )
( FBAN Byron Kimball ): As per U.S. National Weather Service… within the half-hour… remarkable NORTHEAST… EAST winds… possibility of as high as 50 miles an hour or likely 25 (pause) definitely 25, 35 gusting 40… beginning east / northeast within the half hour.
———————————————————————————–
So it’s a ( new ) mystery where Brendan is now getting his “one hour” time prediction in his new “story”.
“and my crew’s workin’, they’re on the fire’s edge, they’re goin’ direct, they’re workin’ with helicopters… and at this point the… the fire’s moved so far north there was another town over that was threatened…”
Also wrong ( in the context of the time of the second weather alert ).
By the time the second weather alert went out at 3:30 PM… the Granite Mountain hotshots has long since ceased doing any real work at all. From the time they ate lunch, and for the rest of the afternoon, all they did was work backwards on the paltry 100 yards of line they had cut that day and were just ‘cleaning that up’.
That remains one of the most tragic ironies of that day.
The GM crew was doing so very little useful work ‘up there’ for most of the afternoon, there really was no reason for them not to have simply come down the way they went up, move their own vehicles, and get out of harms way.
Even Air Attack Rory Collins testified “They had plenty of time to return to their vehicles”.
And so… over the radio I hear my crew and they’re… ya know… “Hey… we’re headed to our escape route. We’re on our way out”… ya know… “We’re gonna… we’re gonna meet up in town”. So I’m like “Allright. Cool. I’ll see ya in about thirty, thirty-five minutes”.
Once again… Brendan seems to be ‘testifying’ that he, himself, had a direct two-way conversation with his crew even AFTER he left his lookout position… and during the time when the SAIT said they could not “verify any direct communications” with Granite Mountain.
And we had pulled outta the… the north end of the town we were at. We started movin’ more south to where the vehicles were. Where… ya know… someone had reached out to my crew… and… “Hey… how you guys doin? You makin’ your way down?” “Yea… we’re makin’ our way down”.
Interesting.
Brendan ( if you can believe anything he says ) NOW seems to be CONFIRMING that people in fire command had directly conversed with either Marsh or Steed ( or both ) and VERIFIED that they were, in fact, making their way DOWN from the safe-black.
And this VERIFICATION of their ‘coming down’ movement(s) took place DURING the time when the SAIT said they could not “verify” any direct communications with Granite Mountain.
But the only NAME Brendan is supplying is simply “someone”.
So WHICH of the KNOWN ( and RECORDED ) ‘conversations’ with Granite Mountain that the SAIT was afraid to ‘confirm’ is Brendan himself now, seemingly, confirming?
1. The radio exchange that took place at 4:13:30 PM, when someone directly asked… “Granite Mountain… wuz yo status rat now?”… and Eric Marsh gave his ‘report’ directly back?
2. The exchange ( 14 minutes later ) between Eric Marsh and someone ( who has always sounded like OPS1 Todd Abel ), in the 4:27 PM Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble video, where Marsh is being urged to make GM “Hurry up” and get to town?
3. Some OTHER ( previously unknown? ) radio exchange between people in fire command and GM?
they put a helicopter up with a… with a paramedic in there… and they find ’em… and ya hear him and he says “I’ve touched down on the ground” and you can hear the helicopter in the background…
There is no evidence that either helicopter Ranger 58 and/or DPS Medic Eric Tarr made any such radio transmission at the point when Tarr was ‘dropped off’ at the cattle pond near the Boulder Springs Ranch.
and about two minutes later he… he’s like “We got nineteen confirmed”… I’m like… “Yea. I told ya it was nineteen guys. Whadda ya mean?”
Brendan is now making it sound like he was in direct radio contact with DPS Officer/Medic Eric Tarr ( and having an actual two-way conversation with him ) out at the deployment site.
That is, also, total fiction.
There is, of course, more.
That’s just some of the ‘low hanging fruit’ in this latest re-telling of the “story” by Mcdonough.
I think it’s time I join in on the conversation after 5+ years. Growing up with Steed, Shumate, Darell and Papa Steinbrink, it’s time that these surviving men do the right thing(s). The Desert Walker and multiple others are inches away from showing America what they thought happened DID NOT and what was quickly dismissed IS THE TRUTH. The Desert Walker and The man on the “Rim” know the truth. We all do. 3.75 up, .9 down takes you to a place where the silence screams. I was taught nothing good comes from a secret
What kind of drugs was he on for this?
Well…I guess I can use this down time free social networking space for a teaching moment. I think we lost one of my brothers from another mother Bob P, and we have now lost my other brother from another mother, RTS who is somewhere in the Pleiades being probed by aliens, and I don’t mean UDA’s,
But if either of them ever come back, we can ask them to explain what, “Reduction In Force” means (hint…it means shit can) I am really hoping Bob P. does us the honor since I got so many lectures from him how much he loves the U.S. Forest Circus (as do I, just like an abused children love their abusive parents) and how he bleeds green. Which I find very ironic and fitting since that is the same thing I said for so many years.
But…in the meantime, if you are a WLF (I have made an executive decision that I can no longer support…or be an enabler to simply make up a word…wildland. Wildland is not a word, therefore there are no WF’s Wild Land…is two words, hence, a wild land firefighter is a WLF) please take the time to read a typed facsimile of the letter that I received way back when. I don’t know exactly why I have a Word document of the original letter and not a copy of it, but that is what I have until I find the original in my files somewhere, because I am sure I have it…and much, much, much more. I have a lot of maps that shows where so many bodies are buried.
And in case you don’t have time to read the following, please allow me to sum it up for you. Buy a fucking respirator and wear it, at least when you are doing mop up. You will also thank me the next time you go into a porta potty in a fire camp that is way over do to be pumped out, just like they always are.
Or…you could just call me up and I could explain it to you while you listen to me wheez and gulp for air in mid sentences. If we talk to long however, I won’t be able to keep talking to you because my raw throat, that is always raw, will no longer allow me to communicate verbally. So…buy a fucking respirator and wear it.
Tesuque Ranger District
6130 Employment September 25, 1984
Gary Olson Duties
Forest Supervisor, Santa Fe National Forest
Based on discussions with you and Sk (Deputy Forest Supervisor) i, Gary Olson, Orlando Romero and I have worked up this plan of action with the help of Ray Page and Les Buchanan.
First: We will continue to utilize Gary in the Hotshot foreman position in all project work except fire. Gary will direct the crew until they leave on October 6. We will also be alert to the possibility of a Law Enforcement trainee position opening up in the Region.
Second: After October 6, Gary will be on detail to help Les with the Fire Management Analysis Plan for about 3 or 4 weeks; he will also be doing some law enforcment duties and finishing up some AFMO duties for the Tesuque District (BD projects; winterizing the engine; shutting down the SWFF crews).
Third: If Gary does not get another job by March 31, 1985, we will offer him the GS-462-05 Recreation Technician’s job and work him in that all summer. Gary has also stated that if by this time he does not have another job, he will flood the country with voluntary applications. The District will at that time also start some cross training in timber.
Fourth: If he has not found another job by September 30, 1985, I recommend we initiate a Reduction in Force. Gary has agreed that this is certainly a fair amount of time in which to try to find another job.
Attached is an SF 52 to advertise for a GS-07 Hotshot forement position. I expect to advertise this on October 1 and fly it for 30 days. I would like to have a new Hotshot foreman on board by December 1, 1984.
Please contact me if you have questions about this.
LOUISE A. ODEGAARD
Tesuque District Ranger
Attach I concur with your plan of action and
support your fourth recommendation.
MAYNARD T. ROST
Forest Supervisor
You know…because it’s always, “Yes…but what have you done for me lately?”
I love Stevie Nicks.. I mean…who doesn’t who was a hotshot in the 70’s, am I right?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pUxsVPDPla4
The U.S. Forest Service isn’t any better, or worse. or kinder, or gentler, or more benevolent or anything other large organization either in or outside of business.
What I object to is how disengenuous and phony they can be about the whole thing. I don’t know if they still use the marketing phrase, “Forest Service Family” or not, but there isn’t any “family” inside that organization as far as I’m concerned. It’s never personal…it’s just business.
And don’t even get me started on the Bureau of Landowners and Miners, the BLM. But when it comes to disaster fire coverups, even the BLM goes with the best…your U.S. Forest Service, just read the South Canyon cover up report, I knew both men who ran that one fairly well, or at least good enough, Tom Allen and Les Rosenkrance.
All of you learned the same thing over the past five years as you watched the U.S. Forest Service cover up a fire disaster that they weren’t even responsible for. They just do it automatically as their default position out of habit because it’s what they do…always. That organization will tell a lie when they could tell the truth just to keep in practice. They practice like they fight as well just to keep in shape…they have their own institutional muscle memory.
And if you are wondering why I am not as critical of Jim Karels (SP?) it’s because he was never the power behind the YHF SAIT, he was just the pretty face thhe U.S. Forest Service put out in front to give the SAIR the State Forestry Partner Stamp Of Approval so you wouldn’t know Mike Dudley was the Wizard Of Oz little man with male intent hiding behind Karel’s smoke screen.
Karel’s was nothing more than a front man, but he did a good job of confusing everyone. They entire YHF SAIT did a very good job of confusing ALMOST everyone. If there is one thing that the USFS values more than tradition, it’s their “Partner Agencies” in State and Private Forestry.
They do love a good interagency Royal Cluster Fuck because it makes it really hard for YOU PEOPLE to figure out just what the fuck they are doing and you know…who’s on first and what’s on second until you just get tired of asking and go away.
Hint…I have sat at “The Table” as a staff flunky and gopher while they;
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder’s fork and blind-worm’s sting,
Lizard’s leg and howlet’s wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Cool it with a baboon’s blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.
Whoa now…jump back, a former grunt and ground pounder quoting William Shakespeare (from Macbeth) again?
And then after the meeting was over, I had to go out and dig the holes to hide the bodies. Hey…don’t judge me, I couldn’t be willing to die on EVERY hill could I?
Whoops, auto speller helping me again. Apparently it never heard “mal” used in a sentence before.
And if you are wondering why I am not as critical of Jim Karels (SP?) it’s because he was never the power behind the YHF SAIT, he was just the pretty face thhe U.S. Forest Service put out in front to give the SAIR the State Forestry Partner Stamp Of Approval so you wouldn’t know Mike Dudley was the Wizard Of Oz little man with “MAL” intent hiding behind Karel’s smoke screen.
Follow up true story,
My District Ranger at the time, LOUISE A. ODEGAARD
Tesuque District Ranger, was in on the first wave of women who skyrocketed to positions where they were in way over their heads in the aftermath of the ruling by a U.S. District Court Judge from the 9th Circuit who decided the U,S. Forest Service had been discriminating against women for about 100 years and so California R-5 was under a Consent Decree to promote women…stat.
The Consent Decree only technically affected R-5, but the USFS read the handwriting on the stall in the bathroom and decided they should get with the program everywhere all at once.
Louise wasn’t a bad person, she was just a terrible manager who was in way over her head. She said in her letter I agreed they should go ahead and shit can me, but I just smiled and nodded, but as soon as the meeting was over, I went down the hall of dug out the appropriate green hard bound volume of the USFS Bible…The Forest Service Manual.
I then had to file my very first, but certainly not my last, grievance because of course in the good book, I found a nice stick I sharpened up and then shoved it up District Ranger Odegard’s ass until I couldn’t see it anymore. Management LOVES the manuals when they go to FUCK employees over, but most of them are too fucking stupid and arrogant to read them when they should.
That was the LAST letter she ever wrote me and after that everything was handled by the Director Of Personnel and he and I were able to work things out between us.
A short time later, District Ranger Odegard wasn’t a District Ranger any more and she was sent to the Regional Office HALL OF SHAME for a few years. That is where they sent management fuck ups who should have been fired, but managers take care of their own. She was still sitting on a donut butt pillow when she left though because she had to have the sharp stick I shoved up her ass surgically removed.
She didn’t get shit canned because of me though, I was inconsequential, she fucked everything up. Her very last sin was actually really funny. She wore a T Shirt to the monthly Forest management team meeting where all of the District Rangers came into the Forest Supervisors Office (SO) to meet with all of the program heads and the Forest Supervisor Maynard Rost and his Deputy. Maynard came up through the ranks like everyone did in the old days from his days as a smoke jumper while going to college to get a degree in forestry and then he climbed and clawed his way over all of the competition to the top…the old fashioned way by fucking every one else over.
Anyway…I’m pretty sure ole Maynard didn’t have a sense of humor because the U.S. Forest Service never issued him one because they didn’t think he needed it. So…he never smiled, much less laughed. Maynard was the very definition of “old school.management.” I’m pretty sure he had been a deputy under Gifford Pinchot back in the day.
Anyway…Louise showed up at that meeting where everyone was in their very best U.S. Forest Service green uniform, wearing a T shirt that had the legs of two people, who were obviously engaged in sex…or coitus if you prefer and the caption on the shirt said something about enjoying your wilderness experience, by sleeping with a Forest Ranger.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AV_0PzeZRs8
Anyway…that was District Ranger Odegard’s last meeting as a member of the Santa Fe National Forest Management Team. I lost track of her though, and she probably retired as Chief Of The U.S Forest Service while I was down on the border with the BLM.
Managers are really easy to do with internal investigations because they are so ARROGANT they leave evidence and witnesses everywhere. I could do Dudley on a weekend.
Just look at how arrogant those two fire team members were, which included the Incident Commander that TRS told us about. They were just standing there shredding documents in clear violation of federal law in front of several witnesses in a fire operations center, one of which verbally objected to what they were doing to cover up their incimpetance in the 6 deaths on the Dude Fire.
It’s just that other managers almost always cover up theirs crimes for each other and rarely give the green light to do other managers.
Whoops,
TRS…RTS, who cares? Fred answers to anything when you call him.
Nope still here. I think you know what a RIF is Gary.
It can happen in any Agency and employees have the right under the RIF direction to Bump across or down. Based on Grade, Tenure and positions worked in..
Thank you Bob, and yes…that is an oversimplified, rosy and wholly inaccurate explanation of how RIF’s are implemented, which is exactly what I expected from you. Thank you for not disappointing me.
A full explanation of exactly what a RIF is and how they are implemented by the agency involved is far too complex to explain here in this format and far more than our readers want to know or can ingest.
The biggest problem with RIF’s are how they are implemented and not what they are. And like everything else, everyone including federal judges give management virtually complete control on how they “manage.”
The point is, from where I was standing, implementing a RIF with my name on it meant “shitcan.” And if your name, you stupid fuck of a water carrying schill for the US Forest Service, was attached to a RIF, you would think the very same thing. But you got lucky, good for you.
Do you know how I know I’m right and you’re wrong? Just as soon as I dug out the US Forest Service Bible and quoted passages from the Good Book, they never mentioned the term RIF again.
Instesd, they substituted, “medical disability retirement” in its place. Which I liked a lot better and so we were able to work things out between us so that it was a win/win.
shill
/SHil/Submit
INFORMAL•NORTH AMERICAN
noun
1.
an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.
verb
1.
act or work as a shill.
Bob is a US Forest Service flunky.
flun·ky
/ˈfləNGkē/Submit
nounDEROGATORY
a liveried manservant or footman.
synonyms: liveried manservant, liveried servant, lackey, steward, butler, footman, valet, retainer, attendant, factotum, houseboy, page
“a flunkey brought us a bottle of champagne”
a person who performs relatively menial tasks for someone else, especially obsequiously.
synonyms: minion, lackey, hireling, subordinate, underling, servant, retainer, vassal; puppet, spaniel, pawn, tool, creature, instrument, cat’s paw; informalskivvy, stooge, sucker, yes-man, bitch; informalpoodle, dogsbody; informalgopher
“government flunkeys searched his offices”
Ohhhhh….I really like BITCH.
Bob is the US Forest Services’ BITCH!
And this is getting down even further into the weeds, but it is information every wild land firefighter who may find themselves in the position I was in…really needs to know.
When my “problem” started, I took the courageous step of filling out and submitting a;
CA-2 Form For Federal Workers’ Compensation. The CA-2 Workers’ Compensation Form for injured federal employees is called the Notice of Occupational Disease and Claim for Compensation for Federal Workers’ Compensation.
Most wild land firefighters almost exclusively deal with the CA1 form;
Most work-related medical conditions fall into two categories: (1) traumatic injury (Form CA-1, Federal Employee’s Notice of Traumatic Injury and Claim for Continuation of Pay/Compensation), and (2) occupational disease (Form CA-2, Notice of Occupational Disease and Claim for Compensation).Aug 29, 2014
The problem with both of these forms, is that much like how the military treats our troops, especially the Special Forces Operators, the standard treatment is to take two Motrin and DO NOT call me in the morning, or ever again about this injury because it didn’t even happen…right?
But something told me what I had was more than that, so I bucked the system and submitted the form and went to the doctor on the government dime from day 1. I continued that process every other time it happened, heavy dose of smoke – equaled – negative physical reaction.
I don’t even know that I was predisposed to the problem…I was often in different places than the crew was, out in front scouting the fire. Maybe I got a really heavy and sustainable dose of some really nasty burned and partially burned particulates like poison ivy or sumac, and that exposure caused what is the root of my problem, tissue damage to my larynx.
A normal larynx is smooth and pink (no hotshot jokes inserted here) whereas mine is reddish and more like sandpaper.
Now…here is the really important part of my story.once I had a really thick file of CA-2’s, doctors reports and witness statements I submitted the file to the Office Of Workers Compensation Program (OWCP). Everyone who has ever dealt with the dreaded OWCP knows they are in business primarily for one objective, to deny most, if not all claims submitted to them just like your asshole insurance company.
But I’ll be damned that after a few years and some more back and forth, I actually got a letter from them that stated in part, “The OWCP on behalf of the American People do hereby and forever accept that your condition was as the result of your employment and therefore, we own it.”
And that is why that stupid fuckin’ US Forest Service Manager had to have that sharp stick I shoved up her ass surgically removed.
HEY…GENIUS, YOU CAN’T SHITCAN SOMEONE FOR A PROBLEM YOU OWN…YOU STUPID FUCK!
NOW…HERES A NEWS FLASH FOR EVERYONE WILD LAND FIREFIGHTING STUPID FUCK WHO WORKS AT MEDC OR AS A SAFETY OFFICER, OR IN ANY OF THOSE CUBICLES AND OFFICES WHERE YOU GET PAID THE BIG BUCKS TO WATCH OUT FOR WILD LAND FIREFIGHTER SAFETY, YOU STUPID FUCKS…HAVE YOU EVER ACTUALLY BEEN ON THE LINE? AND IF YOU HAVE, HOW LONG HAS IT BEEN?
PLEASE REVIEW THE PHOTOGRAPHS OF MOP UP YOU WILL FIND ON THIS PAGE.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
Does that look okay to you? It’s kind of like “How Big Is Big Enough Because Size Does Matter!” (C. G. Olson, 2018). And yes, I think my bumper sticker slogan is totally hilarious because of the double entendre that clearly demonstrates just how very fuckin’ clever I really am.
What do Asian people in Asia know that you don’t, you stupid fucks?
https://qz.com/299003/a-quick-history-of-why-asians-wear-surgical-masks-in-public/
And guess what else, once you provide everyone with a surgical mask, at a minimum, to replace the time honored and mostly ineffective “bandito method” of using a handkerchief, you are going to have to make it part of the mandatory Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) just like hardhats, fire shelters, fire clothes, minimum 8’ leather boots, gloves etc. otherwise the wild land firefighter culture will demand that only pussies (non gender specific) wear the fuckin’ things otherwise they won’t. The wild land firefighter culture wouldn’t even tolerate wearing hard hats as PPE in lieu of baseball/trucker caps 🧢 if it wasn’t MANDATORY!
You fuckin’ people (wild land firefighting agencies) should start paying me big bucks and then maybe you would listen to me?
Oh…and one more thing.
In general, what Asian people in Asia know that you stupid fucks don’t, is that breathing bad air with bad things in it, especially when it isn’t filtered in some way, is bad for you. So…you shouldn’t do that.
And just FYI, the way respirators work is problematic for wild land firefighters to wear much of the time.
There are diaphragms (no hotshot jokes inserted here) flaps or valves that open and close when you breathe.
So….when yo take a breath in, the valve opens up and the air you take in is drawn through the filters that remove most of the unhealthy particulates and even the woodsmoke smell. They are cheap to buy, the filters are cheap to replace and they work very well, even back in my day.
And then when you exhale, the air you expell go closes the flaps and the air goes out bypassing the filters.
The problem comes when you are breathing hard because of heavy work, especially humping it up a mountain. And the used air gets mixed with the bad air and it’s like breathing into a paper bag, you will pass out.
The air you take in also requires more effort because your lungs are providing the power to draw the air through the filters unlike the SCBA technology structural FIRE MEN wear. Respirators are a passive system, cheap and effective, but passive.
However, and fortunately…the most important and critical times wild land firefighters should be filtering the air they breathe, is during mop up when they are moving slowly, methodically and therefore breathing in a rhythmically (no hotshot jokes inserted here) manner isn’t a problem.
It doesn’t fix the entire problem, but I bet it will fix more than 80%, or even more of the problem in its entirety, it did for me and it extended my time on the line.
I used one for years and I swear by them…that should be enough for you to hear….you stupid fucks!
Do you understand who I was?
Okay…just one more thing.
I still love the U.S. Forest Service just as an abused child loves their abusive parents, and I am very proud of the 14 years (years & seasons) I spent working for three different National Forests in two states.
And the day I left to go work for the BLM was one of the saddest days of my life. 😞 😔 😢
Whoops, make that fifteen (15) years (years & seasons)…1974 – 1988.
OK…just one more.
I know YOU PEOPLE know whom and what I was because you made me whom and what I was. I was your creation. A Type IA Interagency Hotshot Crew Boss, one of the best of the best, the tip of your spear, the source of your pride and joy and the sending units claim to fame for ten (10) years, And a crew boss for seven (7) years of those years.
And on a side note, I not only worked my way up from the bottom on one hotshot crew, but I founded a second hotshot crew and wait for it…I was the youngest hotshot crew boss in history, a record that will never be broken because now (and for quite some time now) hotshot crew bosses actually have to be very highly qualified for those positions BEFORE they get put into them.
Whoops, I forgot to brag about how old I was when I first became a hotshot crew boss…23.
Whoops, a better quote would have been, “I was your creation and in many ways, I still am. So…shut the fuck up and listen up.”
I’m sorry Bob, it’s just that I’m in no mood for your bullshit tonight.
Bob…do you know when RTS the Star Child is due back from circling Uranus? I really miss the guy…I hope the aliens aren’t still PROBING him. And if they are…I hope he is at least enjoying it?
Oh…and one more thing. I went through my photos and selected some more that clearly demonstrate why wild land firefighters shoukd all be issued respirators.
They could be worn in all of the photos shown. Like I said, they can be worn most of the time. I used to let mine dangle from my neck on one strap and then simple hold it up to my face for a few minutes when there was a bad wind shift and the smoke got really bad.
Please pay special attention to the photos of mop up. In spite of what hotshot publicists will tell you, the bread and butter of hotshot crews is mop up too and it hot line cutting.
http://ourfiregods.com/mopup.html
I also picked out a few photos to show everyone what it looks like as wild land firefighters hump it TOWARDS the smoke column, when everyone else is running in the other direction.
And NOT hot line cutting.
So…I will repeat my question.
Do those photos of wild land firefighters doing mop up with nothing more than bandannas worn bandito style look like they are working and everything is okay to you?
Or does it look to you like they could use some cheap, passive respirators? Nobody should ever ask why I have a problem. The only question that shoukd ever be ask is, “Why doesn’t EVERYONE have the very same problem?”
At least I guess the ineffective bandana method is still being used by most wild land firefighters today? Nobody has told me otherwise in the last five years when this subject has come up before.
Whoops,
“….cheap, and HIGHLY EFFECTIVE, passive respirators.”
Gary, I am sorry to hear about your lung issues bur I don’t expect the family foriest service to give it much consideration. Your health deterioration was never their concern–even
though they know their retardant chemical solution is one of the world’s best cilia killers around. The fish die immediately, but we lucky humans can stand much lung destruction.
I proved that with having one lung shot through with a 12 guage point blank and the other lung with a mass in it. I was wheezing at fifty yards when I thought it was another heart attack and admitted myself to Mountain View in Las Cruces due to additional chest pains. The catheter to my heart and the Cardiologist said things are clear there so a CT scan showed the mass on the left lung. I have not seen a Pumonologist yet but in the mentime after the hospitalization that blast to the right lung happened. The Pulmonologist is the next visit.
Well I would blame the many hikes I made though the burned retardant –my lungs had already been compromised from breathing diesel smoke for about a year that the United Nuclear Underground Uranium mine on the 900 ft working level. Young buggies with diesal engines were rampant and their scrubbers were seldom working properly so you had a smokey drift and working area just about all time. These days I can not stand to be behind any diesel vehicle–even to the point I have to pull of or pass. So conditions of mining had already compromised my lung capacity, then suddenly after the Yarnell dumps of retardant in the copious amounts of 500, 000 gallons around Yarnell in 2013 and again in 2015, we find all ages of people down with lung problems, heart attacks and cancer. So I am not the only victim of the dumps. The deaths of the 19 GMHS are only the tip of the iceberg concerning deaths directly and indirectly connected to both the 2013 Yarnell fire and the 2015 Tenderfoot fire that caused the chemical inundation of Yarnell and the near vicinity.
Yet in all this, I would not have known had I not referenced what the chemicals concerning retardant are and more what they do once spread upon a burning wild fire. And despite those health ruining chemicals known, there are anywhere between 5 and 15% of unknown chemicals hidden under the trade law. Secrets they keep while infesting the environment and your health–yet fully legal–a legal right to ruin your health and murder in the result. If you want to make rat poison spread some of the ammonium phosphate on some burning embers–but I do not advise it–cyanide is deadly where even one sixtieth of a teaspoon will do a 160 pound person in. A few parts per million in the air you breath will start a cancer.
So Gary, and all you that suffer later on deserve a big compensation for all that you have suffered yet never became apparent until later in life. But don’t hold your breath for a just compensation from the masters of cover up. They rather continue to make their billions spreading their agent orange concoction than own up to the truth of what it is.
ary, I am sorry to hear about your lung issues bur I don’t expect the family foriest service to give it much consideration. Your health deterioration was never their concern–even
though they know their retardant chemical solution is one of the world’s best cilia killers around. The fish die immediately, but we lucky humans can stand much lung destruction.
I proved that with having one lung shot through with a 12 guage point blank and the other lung with a mass in it. I was wheezing at fifty yards when I thought it was another heart attack and admitted myself to Mountain View in Las Cruces due to additional chest pains. The catheter to my heart and the Cardiologist said things are clear there so a CT scan showed the mass on the left lung. I have not seen a Pumonologist yet but in the mentime after the hospitalization that blast to the right lung happened. The Pulmonologist is the next visit.
Well I would blame the many hikes I made though the burned retardant –my lungs had already been compromised from breathing diesel smoke for about a year that the United Nuclear Underground Uranium mine on the 900 ft working level. Young buggies with diesal engines were rampant and their scrubbers were seldom working properly so you had a smokey drift and working area just about all time. These days I can not stand to be behind any diesel vehicle–even to the point I have to pull of or pass. So conditions of mining had already compromised my lung capacity, then suddenly after the Yarnell dumps of retardant in the copious amounts of 500, 000 gallons around Yarnell in 2013 and again in 2015, we find all ages of people down with lung problems, heart attacks and cancer. So I am not the only victim of the dumps. The deaths of the 19 GMHS are only the tip of the iceberg concerning deaths directly and indirectly connected to both the 2013 Yarnell fire and the 2015 Tenderfoot fire that caused the chemical inundation of Yarnell and the near vicinity.
Yet in all this, I would not have known had I not referenced what the chemicals concerning retardant are and more what they do once spread upon a burning wild fire. And despite those health ruining chemicals known, there are anywhere between 5 and 15% of unknown chemicals hidden under the trade law. Secrets they keep while infesting the environment and your health–yet fully legal–a legal right to ruin your health and murder in the result. If you want to make rat poison spread some of the ammonium phosphate on some burning embers–but I do not advise it–cyanide is deadly where even one sixtieth of a teaspoon will do a 160 pound person in. A few parts per million in the air you breath will start a cancer.
So Gary, and all you that suffer later on deserve a big compensation for all that you have suffered yet never became apparent until later in life. But don’t hold your breath for a just compensation from the masters of cover up. They rather continue to make their billions spreading their agent orange retardant than have you know the truth.
ject)
Inbox
x
Tex Gilligan
Wed, Feb 27, 7:03 PM (23 hours ago)
to me
Gary, I am sorry to hear about your lung issues bur I don’t expect the family foriest service to give it much consideration. Your health deterioration was never their concern–even
though they know their retardant chemical solution is one of the world’s best cilia killers around. The fish die immediately, but we lucky humans can stand much lung destruction.
I proved that with having one lung shot through with a 12 guage point blank and the other lung with a mass in it. I was wheezing at fifty yards when I thought it was another heart attack and admitted myself to Mountain View in Las Cruces due to additional chest pains. The catheter to my heart and the Cardiologist said things are clear there so a CT scan showed the mass on the left lung. I have not seen a Pumonologist yet but in the mentime after the hospitalization that blast to the right lung happened. The Pulmonologist is the next visit.
Well I would blame the many hikes I made though the burned retardant –my lungs had already been compromised from breathing diesel smoke for about a year that the United Nuclear Underground Uranium mine on the 900 ft working level. Young buggies with diesal engines were rampant and their scrubbers were seldom working properly so you had a smokey drift and working area just about all time. These days I can not stand to be behind any diesel vehicle–even to the point I have to pull of or pass. So conditions of mining had already compromised my lung capacity, then suddenly after the Yarnell dumps of retardant in the copious amounts of 500, 000 gallons around Yarnell in 2013 and again in 2015, we find all ages of people down with lung problems, heart attacks and cancer. So I am not the only victim of the dumps. The deaths of the 19 GMHS are only the tip of the iceberg concerning deaths directly and indirectly connected to both the 2013 Yarnell fire and the 2015 Tenderfoot fire that caused the chemical inundation of Yarnell and the near vicinity.
Yet in all this, I would not have known had I not referenced what the chemicals concerning retardant are and more what they do once spread upon a burning wild fire. And despite those health ruining chemicals known, there are anywhere between 5 and 15% of unknown chemicals hidden under the trade law. Secrets they keep while infesting the environment and your health–yet fully legal–a legal right to ruin your health and murder in the result. If you want to make rat poison spread some of the ammonium phosphate on some burning embers–but I do not advise it–cyanide is deadly where even one sixtieth of a teaspoon will do a 160 pound person in. A few parts per million in the air you breath will start a cancer.
So Gary, and all you that suffer later on deserve a big compensation for all that you have suffered yet never became apparent until later in life. But don’t hold your breath for a just compensation from the masters of cover up. They rather continue to make their billions spreading their agent orange retardant than have you know the truth.
Sonny,
I would like to send you an email, but I must have your old one because I got a “failure to deliver notice.” Please send me an email at [email protected]
Thank you, Gary
Gary, Yes I did send one–should be [email protected] for my email.
Gary I hope that book is coming along well. I know it will be a great read the way you present things. Experience is the best teacher–and I can be certain it will be of great value to the young fire fighter and a good education for the citizen who desires to understand the wild land fire fighting situation.
There are so many things that are common sense–yet education is a necessity for anyone attempting to work in the wild land fire fighting world. I do believe had the young men available and required to read books such as you will write and a few others from long time wild land fire fighters they would be alive today. What was done to them was totally senseless with no rhyme or reason except someone wanting to shine at the expense of needless risk of those men’s lives.
It is necessary for men of your experience to write and instruct on these points. When I was drafted, I would not listen to a 2nd lieutenant that was even younger than I and had no war time experience. His education gave him a name “90 day wonder” and you knew that without the experience he would likely get you killed. The old battle hardened seargent with WW2, Korea, and Vietnam experience was the man to listen to–he knew how to fight and stay alive and would do his best to keep his men that way.
So I see the wild land fire fighting situation the same. I do not believe Marsh and Steed had the long time experience that would have kept those men alive. Furthermore it was apparent that the men were brainwashed into believing their bosses were competent. They were not and the men were not savvy enough to resist their decision. If they had survived they to a man should have been fired from wild land fire fighting until they had learned enough to follow basic safety procedures that are so simple that even a person like myself could understand them.
And I think it is well to keep things simple–that AR-15 can be broken down in less than 10 seconds–my son has a sig saurer in 308 caliber and when i showed him how you can do that he was amazed. But if you do not know the procedure you are bound to spread that turkey roaster blanked over yourself right in the middle of a manzanita patch. Yet if those fellows understood the immense release of energy–something I learned after the fire from the Wooton and Morrison article, they certainly would have been hesitant to get themselves trapped in that manzanita.
Even that Cowboy had warned them–he had that common sense to tell them now you boys don’t get caught down there in that manzanita with that fire nearby. And we know a mile or even three miles is nearby in 45 mph winds going uphill and funneled into a canyon. Good lord some of those fires in manzanita and shrub trees was said to reach velocities of over 100mph–but even at 20 mph, three miles is only 9 minutes. So if Marsh saw that fire about a mile away where it was said to be coming around the north ridge of that death bowl, then they had 3 minutes to prepare or run like hell to the boulder patch. You can not make any time in manzanita although they has a bit of sparseness if they crossed the sand draw they deployed next to. Yet it was ignorance and stupidity mixed that killed those men–stupidity on the part of their bosses–and that may have ran higher than Marsh and ignorance on the part of the young men they killed.
I did not have to be educated, I saw that fire explode and knew there was one option only–get out of harms way and pronto. On the two track they only needed to switch over to the other side of the mountain–and plenty of copters were going over to tell them there was a safe zone by getting to the other side of the Weavers== but it seems that like the Juniper Tree ordeal–someone wanted to be written up as protectors of Yarnell while waving Pulaski sticks.
That Juniper tree ordeal sounds like a promotion made by someone wanting to make out that the GMHS were set to defend wild fires and how woefully wrong that was. I hope someone hikes to that tree and tells me how it lasted thousands of years and scores of fires without the aid of GMHS or any other hot shot crew. Anyway from the standpoint of common sense, it makes no sense–but yes the story does because they were trying to become wild land fire fighters.
Maybe the lesson will sink in if enough of the real wild land fire fighters point out the malady of allowing bosses to run crews without due care and plenty of experience on how to keep your men alive–mainly by the common sense safety rules but because the old timer has the knowledge and instincts to keep his men safe.
The state owes those kids a bundle–every one should have free education and plenty of reimbursement for their woes. I am not sure what they got but if it was a paltry $50,000 then the state is shamed for their lack of care. After all the hiring practices of allowing dangerous people to kill their men lies on the shoulders of the State of Arizona in this case. But as previous fires, they will do everything in their power including plenty of fat cat attorneys and redactions, cover up and deceptions to keep from taking responsibility so they do not pay. They rather spend a million and more on memorials and make heroes of a few at the expense of the lives of the future wild land fire fighter and the loved ones who have suffered so horribly.
These are my opinions–I am not a wild land fire fighter–But I opine they are the warriors attempting to do their best and deserve the title as heroes, Yet those needlessly risk others for their own edification certainly do not belong in the industry nor do they deserve to be called heroes.
It is a bit of a jest to see that Trump is going to get his border wall in. Well he needs now to wall off the Pacific and the Atlantic ocean as well–more dope and illegal immigrants can come in that way as well–and what about Canada? There have been a number of terrorists using that route so we need a fence there as well. Better get our missiles ready for those planes coming in from Mexico as well so we need a top notch radar detection system as well as plenty of Military along the new fence to find tunnels. But the public will buy into it for some at least.
I am not a Trump fan–after watching his TV program a few I was convinced he was a tyrant and when the election came up and since it looked like the Clinton gang was on the take it seemed we had a toss up as to who would be the most undesirable. Maybe I should have voted for Hillary as much as she left a bad taste for her antics– Great Wall of China in the modern age. And in another way, if we continue to rowl people up we might need those fences.
About the burn at the Shrine–whether it happened or not in my mind is a moot point in my mind. I believe it did because I saw the video and because it would appear to be the thing to do. If it is proven, then it has nothing to do with the reason those men died since they had already subjected themselves to a situation bound to kill them whether that fire came from the Shrine or came from the main fire.
Donut, despite his refusal to speak honestly and forthright from the beginning about what he knew and heard gave us the reason why those men died in a simple statement he made to and interviewer. He expressed his disdain for safety rules as old fashioned-In other words he thought it best to just wing it. Well if you had wings and could fly out a good thing, but the rules, as simple as they are would have saved the men had they followed them.
Since I understand that Donut had been around for about three seasons, his attitude must have reflected the group attitude toward safety rules. But not only that the men were brainwashed to believe their bosses to be competent.. So the disdain for safety procedures and the belief that your bosses would do the right thing and knew how to keep you alive were the deadly mix that killed the men.
But of course you could add some more to it but keeping it on the simple side I did not mention that there were other factors causing the bosses to disregard the safety rules . And that too is subordinate to the actual infraction of life saving rules that were shunned with an exclamation mark since all were broken.
So Donut was a prime example of the attitude of the crew–and if you are religious you might say God left him there to witness to the people why the men died. Donut was and is also a prime example of how the wild land fire people continue to hide truth and information. He certainly fits the profile.
Yet the elders in the wild land fire fighting community are not fooled. They continue to hammer at the truth–their intentions are well founded and will save some lives despite the cover ups.
Articles written and published by JD from various retired wild land fire fighting crew bosses and others are not to be taken lightly. If you are a young fire fighter and have not read these articles then you will miss information that tucked away in your mind will some day save your life. Knowledge can and will be a life saver to many–not those with disdain for the wisdom of the elders in that profession and their organized and simple rules to keep the young and old wild land fire fighter alive.
I would bet a dollar to a donut that Donut would have been stymied if the interviewer had asked him to name one of the safety rules of the wild land fire fighting occupation. Maybe he still does not know them.
Sonny said:
About the burn at the Shrine–whether it happened or not in my mind is a moot point in my mind. I believe it did because I saw the video and because it would appear to be the thing to do. If it is proven, then it has nothing to do with the reason those men died since they had already subjected themselves to a situation bound to kill them whether that fire came from the Shrine or came from the main fire.
My Reply-
Are you in good health/finance to fly to Washington DC to be at my side at the presentation as the “hikers”? I can guarantee you will be proud of me how hard I worked and it is not whether it happened or not in any one’s mind and it is the point …Your belief it did…is right…there is people with documentation. You are wrong to state it has nothing to do with the reason those men died…Yes, so may fire orders were broken but keep the faith…I really worked hard to get to this point that even if something happened to me the right people got it to ensure it is never lost. God’s time is His time…please keep this in prayer. This needs to be a real power point presentation on Extreme Fire Behavior…keep the faith…we are there- Sonny, I would not place this out in tidbits for the world so there was time stamps on IM for all to see “how long” I held on it to gain further documentation….I never did it to tease like Gary claims but so as you know when we were on the trails I did not always have the technology near me so I was able to pop on and have 1 place to time stamp the journey key points…so I could always go back and time stamp…I…I…I…not the world…I used this site as a tool for me so I could later on see when I learned different key stuff…
Now for the people who were on the YH Fire
I did give you all the chance
I know why you kept it in
I saw the journey up close
I know what you faced
But it will not be in a book or movie but it is coming out if not by me- someone will carry it on…
God has the plan as Willis said…
I even gave Willis and Morin the opportunities to be frank…
I will not apologize for T R U T H-
but all the leaders who brainwashed these people
I am sorry for that.
Well you misunderstood me Joy. I did not say the burn at the Shrine was not the cause. I said it was a moot point meaning that whether it did or the main fire did was not the point. The point was that Marsh and Steed had put themselves and their men in a position to die either way, whether from the Shrine or from the Main fire. They had broken all common sense rules and that was established early on–the reason they died.
Like you, because I said from way back that the Shrine might have been the fire that killed them, I still feel that way and agree that it may well have been the source. Those men were not playing with those torches I don’t think for just practice–but even if they were, they were setting a burn. The distance and wind direction makes me believe the source was more likely the Shrine–45mph gusts and it was much shorter distance from the Shrine to the men than it was from the Peeples Valley fire –A fire started in the Shrine area and above would have been only a mile and a half or so and with that kind of wind would have gone up hill at a tremendous velocity. It would have covered that in maybe even less than 3 minutes–so timing that burn would be crucial to knowing if indeed it were the source that killed the men. Of course even if had not, the other fire would have been right on them as well.
But what really killed the men were bosses that played the stupid game of breaking every possible safety rule in the book. How can you do that knowing your crew’s lives are at risk and absolutely for no good reason at all? The men themselves by Donut’s example had no knowledge of the safety rules and if they did they regarded them as superfluous addition to their work as wild land fire fighters. Also, they seemed to have been somehow brainwashed into believing that Steed was the “Greek God” of firefighting–he survived one time by fighting off bears with his chainsaw. Chainsaw massacre of bears, now a massacre by fire that he could not fight off with anything. So the men did not think for themselves since they had so much belief in the competence of Steed and Marsh and whoever was above those two. But Marsh, Steed and others involved did fail miserably since they were willing to put their own interests above the lives of their men.
People want to believe that men with Pulaski’s could actually do something about a wild land fire that we were watching–when I said there on that two track that an army of a thousand men could do nothing to stop that beast. We did not need to know that the thing was releasing energy of an Atom bomb every fifteen minutes–we by our witness could see that nothing but let the Big Dog eat as wild land fire fighters say was appropriate.
So yes I do agree with you and my suspicions since seeing the video are the same. Yet, since the video was redacted soon after it was aired, and since even that post of putting the half section–or was it a section Joy?–I remember the date June 16 and you showing me the official stamp–but half section or section next to Helms and covering that entire bowl of death had been officially restricted with the highest restriction possible and rightly so. Yet even that paper can nowhere again be found.
So yes, I would be going to Washington with you if my testimony meant anything and could help bring forth the facts of what actually occurred at Yarnell to kill 19 GMHS.
There will always be a sadness in my heart for the young ones whom have lost their fathers in this tragedy. They have been lied too and I feel dealt a rotten hand by deceit. They deserve much more than they were given–there is fault with the State and Forest Service on this one and especially the managers of the Yarnell Hill Fire and those that allow people unsuited to be bosses to be hired to kill their men.
I can tell you there have been ship captains that have done time for killing their crews simply because they did not do due diligence to their job as captain. Due diligence was missing with Marsh and Steed many times before the Yarnell incident. Yet they have been given a pass and get out of jail free card–maybe because they are dead with the men–yet they are every bit as guilty as those sea captains that killed their crews. That should be public information, yet it has been covered like the big bad wolf in sheep’s clothing.
I think if the truth becomes well know publicly, there will have to be a change–and likely it will have to be through people in high political positions–someone with a capacity for compassion and someone who genuinely cares for future wild land fire fighter lives and the children and spouses, mothers and fathers and friends of those young deceased heroes–wrongly killed as they were.
Tex Gilligan
7:03 PM (1 hour ago)
to me
Gary, I am sorry to hear about your lung issues bur I don’t expect the family foriest service to give it much consideration. Your health deterioration was never their concern–even
though they know their retardant chemical solution is one of the world’s best cilia killers around. The fish die immediately, but we lucky humans can stand much lung destruction.
I proved that with having one lung shot through with a 12 guage point blank and the other lung with a mass in it. I was wheezing at fifty yards when I thought it was another heart attack and admitted myself to Mountain View in Las Cruces due to additional chest pains. The catheter to my heart and the Cardiologist said things are clear there so a CT scan showed the mass on the left lung. I have not seen a Pumonologist yet but in the mentime after the hospitalization that blast to the right lung happened. The Pulmonologist is the next visit.
Well I would blame the many hikes I made though the burned retardant –my lungs had already been compromised from breathing diesel smoke for about a year that the United Nuclear Underground Uranium mine on the 900 ft working level. Young buggies with diesal engines were rampant and their scrubbers were seldom working properly so you had a smokey drift and working area just about all time. These days I can not stand to be behind any diesel vehicle–even to the point I have to pull of or pass. So conditions of mining had already compromised my lung capacity, then suddenly after the Yarnell dumps of retardant in the copious amounts of 500, 000 gallons around Yarnell in 2013 and again in 2015, we find all ages of people down with lung problems, heart attacks and cancer. So I am not the only victim of the dumps. The deaths of the 19 GMHS are only the tip of the iceberg concerning deaths directly and indirectly connected to both the 2013 Yarnell fire and the 2015 Tenderfoot fire that caused the chemical inundation of Yarnell and the near vicinity.
Yet in all this, I would not have known had I not referenced what the chemicals concerning retardant are and more what they do once spread upon a burning wild fire. And despite those health ruining chemicals known, there are anywhere between 5 and 15% of unknown chemicals hidden under the trade law. Secrets they keep while infesting the environment and your health–yet fully legal–a legal right to ruin your health and murder in the result. If you want to make rat poison spread some of the ammonium phosphate on some burning embers–but I do not advise it–cyanide is deadly where even one sixtieth of a teaspoon will do a 160 pound person in. A few parts per million in the air you breath will start a cancer.
So Gary, and all you that suffer later on deserve a big compensation for all that you have suffered yet never became apparent until later in life. But don’t hold your breath for a just compensation from the masters of cover up. They rather continue to make their billions spreading their agent orange retardant than have you know the truth.
Thanks to Sonny for his most recent help on my book. I am writing about my primary motivating factor in participating in this thread. And unlike what some of you have followed my five years of random thoughts maybthink, my primary motivating factor is my own father’s violent and tragicallyearly death in the workplace. And not my role in the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster because I was taught by the system to be indifferent to those deaths.
IMPORTANT PUBLIC NOTICE…BASED ON TOPICAL NEWS REPORTS
As I have stated before, I am a political independent who is primarily motivated by economic issues because if people aren’t economically secure, their lives and their families lives can’t be secure. And most of my opposition to Trump is based on him stealing what little the working and middle classes have left and giving it to the ultra rich since the 1% own 50% of the worlds wealth. And that is due in large part to how the tax laws are written by the ultra rich so they can not only maintain, but increase their share.
That being said, I am strongly opposed to him being impeached because there are so many of his supporters who have lots of guns and bullets and I think a civil war, at least on the local level in many communities and widespread violence will follow because of the violence that he has gone to great lengths to promulgate and encourage within his base group of supporters and this was recently proven by the Coast Guard Officer who was arrested in Maryland for preparing to do just that,
So…NO IMPEACHMENT…wait until the next time we can vote and let that decide what comes next our country because in a worst case scenario, the left wing will just get mad and throw bricks of tofu at the riot police and it will be unlikely anyone will die during those protests.
And back to the immediate business at hand, I think the single saddest thing that I heard after the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster was when Desiree Steed, Jesse’s wife, composed herself enough to break the news to Caden and Cambria, her two kids. “Daddy had an accident at work,” she told them. “He’s in heaven and he can’t come home.”
So…”Let’s be careful out there.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_pIkkzDagsY
Position Clarification;
When I have expressed my support and enthusiasm for the real time tracking of resources on fires, I was only thinking of using that tool for logistical and support purposes, not line and operational decisions.
This is because I think that if lazy borderline worthless overhead can sit on their asses and sip coffee around the salamanders in fire camp and monitor their divisions and areas of operations on a computer screen…they will.
I was thinking of using that tool to decide whether Crew A should hike out to Drop Point B to be picked up by military 6×6 transport truck C, to be taken back to fire camp or whether Helicopter D, should take their packs etc. to helispot E, for them to spike out in a coyote camp because they won’t e able to get back to fire camp until it’s time to turn around and start back to where they left off on their previous shift. Or whether ops should have water tender A, meet Engine B at intersection C, rather than D, to refill their tank.
You know…strategic long term type planning and logistics problems rather easily than short term tactical line operations decisions because you need to get ONE thing really clear…there ain’t no such thing as close tactical air support in wildland firefighting and there will never be such a thing because if it is there, it will be more likely to knock your ass down and out and then the fire will only slow down for a very brief period of time before it burns you alive rather than ever help you.
Anybody who ever thinks, much less makes a tactical decision, for one even second that there is even the remote possibility that anything is ever coming to back them up much less save them on the fire line…are just dead men walking.
But…there is a lot of wasted time, energy and precious limited resources trying to figure out if who is on first, or if who is on second. If Walmart ran their business the way logistics are run on major project fires, they would go out of business….IMHO.
And one of my favorite threads to post to illustrate this point is the following;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bpxkyTc9Z38
Big project fires as usually one big Royal Cluster Fuck where SNAFU is the rule of the day because the fire is being managed you know…by CHAOS. Although the longer the fire goes on, the smoother things become so that by it is time to demobilize the fure, everything is running pretty good, all things considered.
I guess there would be some application for real time tracking beyond logistics, but that thought SCARES me and I am normally fearless. That concept is way over my pay grade to even think about. So…
Although given the weakness and frailty of human nature, maybe that dangerous situation would be the inevitable ending position? Maybe that entire concept is the very definition of a slippery slope?
I’m just glad I am a former ground pounder and grunt who gets to sit in the cheap seats and just lob flash bangs rather than being a decision maker.
When I described my scenario, I only described a big monitor in the plans tent and maybe one in logistics and transportation. I wasn’t thinking of everybody having one attached with a carabiner to their web gear.
But given the availability of LCD screens on phones and tablets with easily downloadable programs, maybe that is the inevitable outcome?
If we ever get to the point of thinking of VIRTUAL eyes on the fire as a lookout, it will be a very dangerous situation IMHO, at least that’s how it looks from my vantage point in the cheap seats anyway.
And of course just because I’m always writing that all overhead are lazy borderline worthless dumb asses doesn’t mean that all of them are.
In fact, most of them are pretty good firefighters. It was always just safer to assume that they were all lazy borderline worthless dumb asses rather than trying to sort them out on the line.
And even if I knew them from way back, it was still my crew and I didn’t pay any attention to them except for broad general guidance and overall objectives.
Fortunately…all of them I can remember bought into that same philosophy, they had their place and I had mine. Their job was to say, “If you need anything let me know…otherwise, have a good shift”
You know…except for my golden oldie story about those three dildoes on the Scott Fire down on the Coronado. The fire boss, the line boss and the division boss…fuck them. I won that round. In fact, I my 30 year race to the finish line is over…I won.
Which is why it was so unfair to the point of being outrageous to put Captain Steed into the position Arizona Department of Forestry put him in.
And as I keep writing, that nullified such a critical check and balance in the system and was certainly a significant factor in the deaths of the crew.
I honestly don’t know what I would have done if I would ever have been put in his boots. I’m afraid I would have done just what he did. Because you know, if my crew boss ever declared it to be Easter…I immediately started lookin’ for eggs.
That’s just how hotshots roll. The crew boss is the shot caller, no if’s and’s or but’s. If you don’t believe that in the first place, you have no business being on that crew. Find another job, or another crew boss to work for.
And FYI…it STILL boggles my mind that we had a hotshot crew boss who was running around out there who was not only vague about his true location and intentions, but he was deliberately MISLEADING!
And just when I start to get my head around that…I remember there was an Operations Chief running around out there who knew that particular hotshot crew boss so well…he didn’t believe him when the crew boss told him where he was and what his intentions were, so he double checked with him!
The system will collapse in on itself if that ever becomes SOP in the real world and not just in the alternative universe that somehow was created special for Eric Marsh, Darrell Willis and the Yavapai County Cosa Nostra ( Our Thing) to freely operate in without the normal checks and balances that are built into the system…in this day and age of professionalized hotshot crews.
OMGosh! In my day…sure.
Whoops…I meant to write the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra.
Oh…and one more thing. The Prescott Fire Droartment gets a pass in my book also because I have decided I was wrong. The PFD wasn’t relevant to what happened to our crew because they were truly a wild land based wildfire, firefighting crew.
Yes…there was some minor, “Rusk a lot to save a lot bullshit influence on the crew on the periphery, but I think in the final analysis, it was minor.
There were just too many ex U.S. Forest Service hotshots and wild land firefighters in senior positions on the crew for them to be anything else.
They were one of us and they belonged in OUR HOUSE. I would have been proud to have worked with everyone on the crew except fir Marsh. If…I could have kept up with them.
And that is just how I feel.
Sigh….Prescott Fire DEPARTMENT. RISK a lot to save a lot bullshit influence on the crew on the periphery, but I think in the final analysis, it was minor.
Oh…and one more thing now that my anger has cooled from white hot to a dull red over the years and I can now be more objective.
I wrote a little ways downstream that I am going to give the YHFD Fire Team a Pass and here is the Readers Digest version of why, even though I do have a lot written on the subject.
They followed their training and they were within policy, the scope and authority of their employment and they used best practices at the time.
Should they have done better….YES.
Did we expect more from them…YES.
But…I can’t condemn anyone who follows their training and are within policy, the scope and authority of their employment and who use best practices at the time.
That’s just the way Internal Investigations work.
And now…I can work to do what I can to change all of that so the next time it happens, and there will be a next time, I can condemn those who will be responsible.
In other words, I condemn the SYSTEM that they were and most of them still are a part of.
It was a systemic and system wide failure, meaning the specific part failed and then the entire organization failed on top of it because at its core…it’s rotten and needs to be rebuilt.
So…FIX IT!
Oh….and to the City Of Prescott, Mayor Kuykendall, Prescott City Council, Darrell Willis and Friends, the State of Arizona Legislature, State Forestry et al except for the worker bees like Shumate, the U.S. Forest Service, Dudley Do Wrong & Company, and the SYSTEM in general, I just want you to all rest assured that in my book…YOU ARE ALL FUCKED!
And the Yavapai County Sherriff’s Clown 🤡 Posse and their their Chief Clown, Scott Mascher, they are on my shit list too for their BOTCHED 19 death investigations.
And because they gave a new meaning to the term…EPIC FAIL for their NON EVACUATION of all of the citizens who pay their salaries and for their CLOWN CARS to drive around in.
They got so fucking lucky they didn’t end up being responsible for making half of the people in Yarnell and it’s suburbs, you know…DEAD! But DEAD in a really bad way, by being burned alive.
With great POWER comes great RESPONSIBILITY! And by our Founding Fathers design, no one has more authority in Yavapai County than the Sheriff…nobody. The FBI has to line up and take a number to kiss his ass.
Get your shit together and come up with some EVACUATION plans for the next time you STUPID FUCKS!
And I want to know what the hell happened to RTS…please don’t tell me the aliens are still PROBING him?
OMGosh…he is going to bitch (non gender specific) just like a little a little bitch (non gender specific) when he finally gets back.
And frankly…I don’t want to read about all of the disgusting things they are doing to him…know what I mean?
Whoa now…a double “little a little bitch”, that sounds extra, extra bad.
**
** THE JERRY THOMPSON 4:24 PM PHOTO
NOTE: This is another ‘Reply’ from down below that I thought I had already posted, but it never appeared. Posting it again, now, and hoping it shows up this time.
>> On January 7, 2019 at 2:47 pm, Joy Collura said…
>>
>> Explain to me Wtktt why the separate plumes
>> to the left is the Corridor
>> to the right is the Harper Canyon
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACjXUZXUTol5xdSHlORGsTqa/Photos%20and%20Video/Jerry%20Thompson%20Photos%20Videos?dl=0&preview=IMG_1898.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
>> this is Sun City West Jerry Thompson, who was on a brush
>> rig during the fire, gave these June 30, 2013 photos to Mike
>> Dudley, a member of the Accident Investigation Team
Yes. That link you provided is to Jerry Thompson’s 4:24 PM photograph that he took from that boulder pile ‘lookout’ location just WEST of ‘Westway’ in Yarnell.
Below is a link to a ‘crossfade’ video for that Jerry Thomson IMG_1898 photograph which shows you EXACTLY where all the following locations really are ( in that photograph )…
1. The Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot.
2. The Waltraud property ( 100 yards west of where Shrine pavement ends ).
3. The center of the main structure at the Youth Camp itself.
4. The ‘Sesame-to-Shrine’ dozer line.
As the ‘crossfade’ shows… the ‘dozer line’ is CLOSER to the camera than one might, at first glance, believe.
That ‘Boulder Pile’, which is clearly visible there in the distance, is BEYOND the actual ‘dozer line’. From Jerry Thompson’s perspective, the dozer line would have been in FRONT of that Boulder Pile ( as shown in the crossfade video below ).
The ‘smoke clouds’ seen in this 4:24 PM photograph are also BEYOND the ‘dozer line’, further WEST, and out in the ‘middle bowl’ area.
In the video at the link below, the yellow line that represents the exact location of the Sesame-to Shrine dozer line appears to be sort of a ‘fence’ anchored to the ground. There is a reason for that. It is, in fact, a RAISED path marker so that the yellow line remains VISIBLE when the crossfade is at ground level and showing you exactly what Jerry Thompson would have seen when the photograph was taken.
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire – Thompson IMG _1898 – 6/30/2013 – 4 24 PM
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/mOyePMA6pLE
YouTube Video Description:
——————————————————————————————————–
Crossfade of a photo taken at 4:24 PM on June 30, 2013 at the Yarnell Hill Fire, by firefighter Jerry Thompson. He and his crew were serving as ‘lookouts’ at a location just WEST of ‘Westway’ in Yarnell. The YELLOW line that appears in the crossfade represents the Sesame-to-Shrine dozer line. The photo shows that, circa 4:24 PM, the fire was definitely coming into Yarnell from out in the ‘middle bowl’ area, but there was no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ actually emanating FROM the Youth Camp or the dozer line itself.
———————————————————————————————————
>> Joy also said…
>>
>> the same man Mike Dudley who got Bob Brandon’s stuff along
>> with Clay Templin and never made it to the report so please
>> tell me that this is ALL of Jerry’s data in pure form?
>> I would like that clarification from the man Above.
>>
>> Has all Thomas stuff been made public?
If you asking ME if all of Jerry Thompson’s photos and videos have been made ‘public’… the answer ( from me ) is “I don’t know”.
The only Jerry Thompson photos/videos I am aware of are the ones that have always been sitting in the online public evidence Dropbox folder labelled “Jerry Thompson Photos Videos”.
Followup…
Jerry Thompson was a crew-member of Sun-City-West Engine BR131.
The official Yarnell Fire resource order number for SUN Engine BR131 is “E-8”.
Jerry Thompson’s Yarnell Fire official resource order number was “E-8.2”
Also… I misspelled Thompson’s name in the title page of the video at the link above.
I left out the ‘p’ and it just says “Jerry Thomson”.
FWIW… here is a link to a new ( identical ) copy of the same video with the spelling correction(s) made for Jerry Thompson’s name…
https://youtu.be/cZN5CyLkUGA
WTKTT,
Thank you for all the good work on another one of your great cross-fade videos, this time with the Sun City West FF Jerry Thompson’s June 30, 2013, 1624 hrs. photo.
To clarify, are you stating that the fire behavior shown in that 1624 photo (to the right) is Harper Canyon and the fire behavior to the left is the Sesame Street to Shrine Corridor?
Was it at the Number One Corridor ( 34°13’44.06″N and 112°45’23.69″W ) by the structure you labelled as the “Youth Camp” or the Number Two Corridor which included several arterial spur roads that led out to the Mina Road and the ‘Old Grader’ site?
You labelled this generally as the “Youth Camp,” yet it is really a much larger area.
Are you aware that it is a total of 160 acres? Where you identified is where one structure was and that is where the majority of the vehicles and WFs and FFs were stationed that afternoon.
So then, are you saying the fire behavior was right behind them at this “Youth Camp” in the large open area where Yavapai County Morin’s dozer turned around and was then rerouted elsewhere ( 34°13’47.64″N and 112°45’27.59″W )?
Or was it where all the arterial spur roads were located? Or were you talking about the mouth of the Second Corridor ( 34°13’56.04″N and 112°45’52.71″W )?
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on February 16, 2019 at 9:32 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Thank you for all the good work on another one of your great
>> cross-fade videos, this time with the Sun City West FF Jerry
>> Thompson’s June 30, 2013, 1624 hrs. photo.
>>
>> To clarify, are you stating that the fire behavior shown in that
>> 1624 photo (to the right) is Harper Canyon and the fire behavior
>> to the left is the Sesame Street to Shrine Corridor?
I believe the ‘crossfade’ speaks for itself.
I’m a little confused, though, about what you mean by ‘fire behavior’ to the ‘left and right’ in the photo. The CENTER of the photo is that marker on that main structure at the Youth Camp. As the original IMG_1898 shows, there was NO ‘fire behavior’ at all ( at 4:24 PM ) “to the right” of that CENTER marker. So by ‘left and right’…. you are referring to ‘left center’ and ‘right center’ in the photograph, yes?
If that is the case… then yea… the FLAMES that are clearly seen in the ‘right center’ of the original photograph are coming OVER the north ridge of Harper Canyon. That ‘fireline’ coming over that north part of what TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel and SPGS1 Gary Cordes kept referring to as the ‘Rock Pile Ridge’ matches other photographs that were being taken at that same time by various Blue Ridge Hotshots who were ( at 4:24 PM ) busily “getting out of Dodge” over there in that Youth Camp area.
Just 180 seconds after Jerry Thompson took this IMG_1898 photo, Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble would record his 4:27 PM ‘Yarnell-Gamble’ video from the driver’s seat of one of the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers parked over there at the Youth Camp. The same ‘flames’ are clearly seen coming ‘over the north ridge’ in his video. That’s why he was actually shooting the video… to capture the sight of those flames coming over that north ridge… because it was a pretty awesome sight from there at the “Youth Camp”.
As for the ‘smoke column’ seen on the ‘left center / left edge’ of the photo… the crossfade clearly shows that ‘smoke’ was originating from some point that was still some distance WEST of the ‘Sesame-to-Shrine’ dozer push. Probably somewhere out in the ‘middle bowl’ near the ‘Sesame clearing’ itself… where the GM and Blue Ridge Crew Carriers had been staged earlier in the day.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Was it at the Number One Corridor ( 34°13’44.06″N and 112°45’23.69″W )
>> by the structure you labelled as the “Youth Camp” or the Number
>> Two Corridor which included several arterial spur
>> roads that led out to the Mina Road and the ‘Old Grader’ site?
This is the first I’ve ever heard the phrases ‘Number One’ and ‘Number Two’ corridors.
See more about this below.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You labelled this generally as the “Youth Camp,”
>> yet it is really a much larger area.
The only ‘label’ in the crossfade video is simply a marker on the exact center of that main structure over there at the ‘Youth Camp’.
I didn’t try and show the actual ‘property boundaries’ of this ‘Youth Camp’ itself.
You are right. The ‘Youth Camp’, per se, was more than just that main structure, but as far as how it has ever been referred to in public testimony… the phrase ‘Youth Camp’ has always just been referring to that main structure and the ‘clearings’ around it where all the firefighting vehicles were being staged that day.
I mean, technically, ALL of the ‘Youth Camp’ is actually IN ‘Harper Canyon’ ( as far as I know )… but for the purposes of matching what the firefighters were all saying when they testified… “Youth Camp” has come to mean that place where all the vehicles were staged… and “Harper Canyon” has come to mean places WEST of there.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Are you aware that it is a total of 160 acres?
Yes.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Where you identified is where one structure was and that is
>> where the majority of the vehicles and WFs and FFs were
>> stationed that afternoon.
That’s correct.
At one point that afternoon, two of the Engines assigned to the area were actually parked in the DRIVEWAY of that ‘main Youth Camp structure’, under the trees that surround the house. They both eventually moved further east to the ‘clearings’ and closer to the entrance to the Youth Camp and were re photographed in that new location, closer to evacuation time.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> So then, are you saying the fire behavior was right behind them at
>> this “Youth Camp” in the large open area where Yavapai County
>> Morin’s dozer turned around and was then rerouted elsewhere
>> ( 34°13’47.64″N and 112°45’27.59″W )?
I am not ‘saying’ it… I am SHOWING it to you ( in the crossfade ).
See above. 180 seconds after this 4:24 PM Thompson photo is when Ronald Gamble and the other Blue Ridge Hotshots were, themselves, phtographing exactly what you just described, from the vantage point of the Youth Camp itself.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Or was it where all the arterial spur roads were located?
>> Or were you talking about the mouth of the Second Corridor
>> ( 34°13’56.04″N and 112°45’52.71″W ) ( 34.232233, -112.764642 )?
Here are the DECIMAL GPS coordinates ( and a link to the exact spot ) for this ‘mouth of the Second Corridor’ you are now referring to…
34.232233, -112.764642
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013'56.0%22N+112%C2%B045'52.7%22W/@34.2313328,-112.7639437,911m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.232233!4d-112.764642
Using your own GPS coordinates ( above ) for the spot where Paul Morin STOPPED his dozer line there at the west end of the “Youth Camp Area” ( which I would say are accurate ) this “mouth of the Second Corridor” you are now referring to was…
1. 0.43 miles / 758 yards “as the bird flies” further WEST out into Harper Canyon.
2. 0.48 miles / 845 yards further WEST if you follow the winding path/drainage.
As far as I know… there is nothing in the public evidence record about Captain Darby Starr and his crew ( or any of TFLD(t) Tyson Esqubel’s other crews ) going THAT far WEST into Harper Canyon that afternoon.
The ‘saw line’ project they were all working on was just supposed to “tie’ the end of Paul Morin’s dozer line, which stopped right where you have indicated, into what both Esquibel and Cordes kept calling the ‘Rock Pile Ridge’ just north of the Youth Camp area.
We still don’t know EXACTLY where this actual ‘saw line’ work was taking place, but it was close enough to the Youth Camp area for Darby Starr and his crew and the others who were assisting with the project to make it out of there ( on foot ) quickly enough to load up and head out of the area at the same time as the Blue Ridge Hotshots and everyone else who was in that ‘Youth Camp’ area.
Tyson Esquibel told ADOSH that ‘saw line’ work was taking place no more than a few ‘hundred feet’ WEST of the Youth Camp area… and certainly not a full HALF-MILE to the west.
If you have some evidence to the contrary… let’s hear it and talk about it.
I’m still actually very curious to know EXACTLY where Captain Darby Starr and the others were DOING this ‘saw line’ work when they realized they needed to get the hell OUT of there.
How FAR did they really have to RUN to get back to the “Youth Camp Area”?
Inquiring minds still want to know.
Back to the actual ‘fireline’ seen in the Thompson IMG_1898 photo…
With regards to whether that ‘fire’ seen out there on that ridge was coming over the ridge ‘out there’ by this ‘mouth of the Second Corridor’ or closer to the ‘Youth Camp area’…
I am no FBAN… but I know how to look at a photograph.
it seems like it was all happening at the same time.
Just look at the Thompson photograph itself.
The FLAMES that can be seen up on that ‘ridge’ stretch all the way from this ‘mouth of the Second Corridor’ you are referring to… to the north ridge near the ‘Youth Camp Area’… where it was about to be photographed also coming OVER that ridge… in THAT area… by the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
Reply to Gary Olson post on February 8, 2019 at 9:41 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I3. In this day and age, if Walmart can track every truck they operate and
>> individual containers of fish and other perishables with cheap, widely available
>> and easy to use GPS beacon locators, we should be able to do the same with
>> significant assets on fires…like hotshot crews. Not so close air support can be
>> sent to save them such as idiots like Sad Sack and that stupid movie say
>> is possible, but so so Plans knows where significant resources are located on a
>> fire at any given time for a whole host of good and logical reasons.
Just a few days ago… that all actually just took a step closer to becoming a LAW ( at least for Federal fires ).
Senate Bill 47
The Natural Resources Management Act
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/47/text
Just 3 days ago, on February 5, 2019, the U.S. Senate finally had the ‘vote to proceed’ on this and it passed with 99 out of 100 Senators voting ‘Yes’.
Only Kentucky Senator Rand Paul voted ‘No’.
The next step is a REAL ‘vote’ on the bill in the Senate, then it goes to the House for a vote, then to the President’s desk for signature.
No telling how long all that might take… but the bill is now ‘moving forward’.
**** UPDATE ****
Well whadda ya know.
The Senate got off its ass and actually VOTED ( for REAL ) on this TODAY.
At 4:31 PM TODAY… the real Senate ‘roll call’ vote started.
The bill PASSED ( with flying colors ).
The actual Senate VOTE was 92 FOR and only 8 AGAINST.
https://www.democrats.senate.gov/2019/02/12/roll-call-vote-on-passage-of-s47-natural-resources-management-act-as-amended
———————————————————————————————————
U.S. SENATE FLOOR VOTES – February 12, 2019
Roll call vote on passage of S.47, Natural Resources Management Act, as amended
4:31pm the Senate began a 15 minute roll call vote on passage of S.47, Natural Resources Management Act, as amended.
Passed: 92-8.
——————————————————————————————————
Now it goes to the House of Representatives.
With that kind of overwhelming ‘majority’ vote in the Senate, it means it should enjoy similar results in the House, and it also means the votes are ALREADY there to override a presidential veto if the dipshit in the Oval Office decides to NOT sign the bill.
That is certainly good news and based on what I have seen in the past, if it is policy on U.S. Forest Service fires, it becomes policy on everybody’s fires because all they have to say, is if you don’t do it also, we won’t send you any of our resources because we consider that a critical safety factor.. But…we’ll see and I for one will hope for the best.
Gary said: And I only had a skateboard to get around on and no bike. Maybe we walked out there, but it was a really long way to walk?
My reply: what kind of bullshit…they did not have skateboards back then when you and Roy were growing up
Goodness Gracious
Lordy Lordy…God Almighty.
How old are you
15 human years equals the first year of a medium-sized dog’s life so you are about 4.33 years old?
I forget all the conversions…that means you can play soon with the additional Extraterrestrial life if we both ever hear from RTS – we will know for sure…I know Sonny knows all about abductions…he really was,,,that week of the fire he was interviewed by CBS Paramount on this very topic…maybe RTS and Sonny vanished because their depth of wanting TRUTH out…All I know is I got Atomic Skies on my jeep Gar- THAT logo keeps me safer from danger…you have to get that…right?
So let’s not get off path…are you trying to con me about Roy Hall? Are you thinking I would believe Roy Hall ever was around you and that you had a skateboard strapped to your side? I will know if you answer this…did you own a hard rubber or clay one or metal? I know it was not polyurethane because that was my generation…Hard to picture little old tiny Gary on a tiny skateboard heading out to burglarize some ranch with MORE THAN LIKELY hard nasty eroded dirt roads on metal wheels…I could not help myself Gary…I about peed myself when I read that and thought if the world bought that…I will be back to getting off the PC until I can come up with some real hard facts to present but great to hear you have a sense of humor and imagination
was that worthy enough for a mic dropped Gary?
You should go see Sonny until your Moab times…you may learn a bit about how to have 9 or 30 lives in one…
Sonny, Happy Valentine’s Day…hope you are enjoying it with someone who cares…is there those kind of folks still in the world?
You are the son of a miner
I am the son of a %!@!% of an officer
You win the bad ass award
We didn’t just burglarize any ranch building, we burglarized a ranch building on the Milky Way Ranch that was owned by John Wayne. And the town was Eagar, Arizona. One set of relatives I stayed with were the Eagar’s, my uncle (by marriage) owned the only gas station in town where everybody in town (all of the men anyway) stopped by at least once some time during the week to shoot the breeze. The Mormons lived in Eagar, and the Catholics lived in Springerville. I had relatives scattered all over the White Mountains from Eagar to Alpine. It was a ranching family. I was the Black Sheep from the Black Sheep of the family. I always had one foot in Fort Grant and the other one on a banana peel. So…my relatives took turns keeping me out of the juvenile correctional system in Arizona. I even attended two years of grade school with relatives and spent all of my summers up on, “The Mountain.” I didn’t say it was a good town to get around on with a skateboard, I said that was what I had, plus my two shank ponies as my mother used to say. I am 65 years young. And yes, I took some hard spills because the roads weren’t skate board roads but they were paved. The main uncle who kept me on the straight and narrow was the real deal of a cowboy and John Wayne used to consider it an honor to hang out with HIM. I don’t even know what his first name was because everybody called him Skinner (Slade) because he had been a muleskinner as a young man when the only way to get supplies to those mountain towns was to haul them by mule train from the railhead at Magdelana, New Mexico. I called him Uncke Skin and we would spent days…weeks together without saying more than a half a dozen words all day long. He didn’t have anything to say to me, and I didn’t have anything to say to him, but he was always very kind to me. Sometimes he would drop the tailgate half way and load the horses into the back of his pickup truck. It was the damndest thing I ever saw and I thought every time he did it, those horses were going to break all of their legs and kill both of us in the process, but somehow they got up there. Unloading them was the second damnest thing I had ever seen except what appeared to me was a disaster in slow motion interspaced with really violent actions with horrses legs going everywhere as my uncle whistled and yelled at them in horse language, which they understood but I didn’t. He had his own little ranch and about three hundred head of Herefords. He knew every cow and calf by sight and which calf went to which cow, but they all looked the same to me. He was also the foreman of the Udall Ranch called Pool Corral, it just had one full time cowboy, my uncle, the Udall boys (when they weren’t at college, on Missions for The Church or law school.) some Undocumented Aliens (UDA’s) who lived in line shacks who always seemed to be really happy guys living all by themselves in the middle of the forerst. Everybody referred to them as…”my Mexcans” and they would loan each other “their Mexcans” because they didn’t pronounce the i. They were considered to be indentured servants, It was a different time back then. My uncle always had brown Red Man chewing tobacco streaming out the side of his mouth and it dribblling down his chin which he periodically wiped away with the back of his hand. He kept bags of the loose leaf on the dash of his Chevy Stepside truck and he chewed wads of that nasty stuff all day long and spit it out his window going down the road so his tobacco spittle would fly all over the place and his baby blue truck was two tone brown on one side. We got up before the sun, ate my uncles sour dough pancakes and steak that was all cooked on a wood burning stove. My uncle was one hell of a cook. And then we saddled up horses in the dark and then we rode horses all day lookin at cows, or riding the fence lines or checking on the Mexcans who didn’t speak any English but my uncle spoke Spanglish like all of the cowboys did. And the Udall boys had gone on missions for The Church down south somewhere so they spoke fluent Spanish. One time they spent the day riding the fence line teaching me how to greet Jose in Spanish so that by the time we got to one particular line shack, I would be able to carry on a few sentences of basic conversation with him. But…from the shocked look on Jose’s face as we rode up and I called out a greeting to him …I am pretty sure they were disengenous about what they had taught me to say in Spanish. And then we would get back to the little ranch houses (the Udalls or his) after dark and then my uncle would light up the Coleman lanterns and cook dinner on the wood burning stove that was always based around sour dough biscuits that had been doing whatever sourdough does all day long in a crock and steak. And then we would go to sleep in the adjoining bunkhouse and all of us would piss at night into a five gallon bucket in the corner (in the dark, so you know where a lot of piss ended up, but nobody including me thought anything about it) that had held lard at one time and then in the morning I would dump it out. There was an outhouse for more serious business, but of course it was some distance from the ranch house so you didn’t want to go out there in the dark because he didn’t ever use any flashlights, just Coleman laterns and of course he would put those out after dinner, which was either steak, steak or steak to go with the sourdough biscuits. And then he would start the sourdough to doing whatever sourdough does all night long in the crock so there would be sourdough pancakes and more steak in the morning. Whenever we ran out of steak, they would make a bunch more right on the spot by shooting a cow in the head with a .22. and pulling the carcass up a tree so it could be processed into…you know, steak. We rode from zero dark thirty every morning to after dark every night. Things would change up when it was time to brand the calves. And it was my job and my cousins job to somehow get a calf in the chute by twiisting their tails and pushing them from behind. Of course they didn’t want any part of that so the fight would be on and then their automatic animal fight or flight systems would kick in just like ours and the first thing they would do is shit all over their hind ends and us. And urinate all over the dusty corral that was mixed with the fresh cow shit. The mother cows would be terrified for their babies and raising a racket, their babies would be terrified for themselves and raising a racket. I would be covered with cow shit because I would slip in the mud made from all of the urine and dirt in the corral while wrestling them into the chute as they shit more on me. But in the end somehow they would end up in the chute and them the sides would slam in on them after somebody pulled a big lever and then they would be slammed onto their sides pinned by the chute while they were screaming (you know calf screams) and their mothers would be,screaming (cow screams) and then one cowboy would cut off part of one ear in a certain pattern with his pocket knife while another cowboy got the red hot branding iron from the barrel contraption that kept the irons red hot from big propane bottles with lots of fire and a roaring noise, and then another cowboy would cut the calf’s balls off with his pocket knife and put them on a big bloody pile of other balls on the top of the fence posts. There were cowboys everywhere because everyone would get together and help each other brand. And that would go on from sun up to sun down and then all of the cowboys would eat sourdough biscuits and fresh calf balls which seemed to be a real delicacy they all seemed to enjoy munching on with obvious delight. I just ate sourdough biscuits and steak while the cowboys teased me (little skater punk) and of the cow shit dried on me because the only water came out of a hand pump in the kitchen so we never took showers until we rarely came down off The Mountain to my uncles house in Eagar where my aunt lived who was my mothers older sister except for the 4th of July when we would ride horses in the town parade and go to the rodeo for several days at the rodeo grounds at the edge of of town..Of course my mother had 7 or 8 brothers and sisters and they all had kids and I had a hard time keeping everybody straight because there were first cousins and second cousins and third cousins all over the place. And then when the Monsoons started in July, those powdered dirt roads would turn into mud about three feet deep. And then…it was time to fire up the 1948 (I don’t actually know what year it was) Dodge Poweragon with the huge Power Take Off (PTO) winch that sat there unused until the mud got three feet deep. And then we would all pile into that big ole Power Wagon with my uncle at the wheel and it would be the ride of our lives roaring down off The Mountain sideways. But we hardly ever came down off The Mountain so it didn’t really matter how much it rained because we just rode horses all day in the rain. And every day was just like the previous day and the next day would be just like that day. Until the fall and then we (and when I say we, I mean the cowboys because I wasn’t of much use) would gather up all of the cows from different ranches and then there would be a cattle drive…I kid you not. A real cattle drive down off The Mountain to the winter pasture that was almost to the New Mexico State Line. And my uncle would slide a big chuck box into the back of his step side and then at night he would cook sourdough biscuits and steak and in the morning, he would cook sourdough pancakes and steak. John Wayne wanted to come up and have my uncle cook him sour dough biscuits on his wood stove, which he was famous for all over The Mountain. So one day we didn’t ride out in the dark and my uncle spent the whole day cooking sourdough biscuits and steak. Except since John Wayne was coming for dinner, he also made his very rare enchiladas (always eaten with a fried egg on top…Mexcan style) treat and he sent the Udall boys and me down to the Black River which ran across the far end of the horse pasture to catch big Rainbow trout with our bare hands that were hiding under the rocks because John Wayne was coming to dinner. Otherwise, my uncle would never cook a fish, he mostly just cooked sourdough pancakes, sourdough biscuits and you know…steak. And finally when everything was ready that afternoon, we were all sitting on the porch waiting for John Wayne to get there for dinner. Finally…we could see a huge black Cadillac careening down the dusty road that led up to the ranch house and it arrived in a cloud of dust and stopped right in front of the porch we were sitting on. And then four big men, who were all wearing black suits with white shirts piled out of the black Caddy, but John Wayne wasn’t one of them because he had been called away from his ranch that was just outside of Eagar (the Milky Way) and had flown off somewhere, It was called the Milky Way because it had miles of wooden fence around the buildings and horse pastures and everything…all of the buildings and fences were painted bright white which was always very striking siting on all of that green grass up against the green forest. John Wayne used to sit for hours and bullshit with my uncle while he sat and drank cup after cup of coffee whenever we were in town (I sat and nursed a coke and kept my mouth shut because I didn’t have anything to say to them and they didn’t have anything to say to me) at the Safire Restaurant in Springerville (where the Catholics lived) because John Wayne liked to hang out with the real deal…a real cowboy and legendary mule skinner who brought in the supplies back in the day from the railhead in Magdalena, New Mexico…Skinner Slade!
Any more questions?
Oh…and one more thing. I forgot to mention the very worst part of the whole branding experience. Those terrified screaming calves and their terrified screaming mothers would take it up a notch when those red hot branding irons were pressed slowly and carefully into their flanks so as not to blur the brand. And the stink of the burning flesh and calf hair was something I will never forget. You should have seen them run when the sides of the chute slammed open and their ordeal was over and they were free. I would never had made a very good cowboy.
Say…have you heard the one about the two brothers who each inherited ten million dollars when their father died? One of them was a rancher and the other one was something else (it doesn’t matter).
So the brother who was something else asked his brother the rancher, what he was going to do with his ten million dollars? And the cowboy relied, “I don’t know…I guess I’ll just keep ranching until all of the money is gone?”
Oh…and you did have some more questions about the gun stuff. Yes…I was just joking, you told me all of that and I was just repeating all of the things you have told me over the past few months back to you. I keep telling you that when it comes to ballistics…I am out of my element. I like guns…a lot. But I’m not really a gun person, I’m just a gun nut. My experience with guns is very, very limited as is my experience with ammunition. All of the guns I know about fit into a very narrow field that are specific to federal law enforcement. None of them can be altered or modified in any way or somebody will own you, and everything you have ever worked for, for your entire life or ever will earn. IF you hurt anybody in any way with anything, a pistol, a rifle, a baton, pepper spray, or anything else that you have not been specifically trained how to use, authorized to carry and use in a very narrow and specific way within the law, your agencies General Orders, FLETC training and their use policies, rules, regulations and guidelines and may God help you if you are out of policy in any way and you are not acting within the scope of your employment, authority and under the color of law. As authorized by God, Country and the U.S. Constitution because the U.S. Attorneys Office won’t. They will cut you lose like a kite just as soon as your interests deviate from theirs in any way and you are more trouble to defend than you worth to them. And that especially goes for ammo. All ammo that is shot all of the time, in training, in practice, in qualifications and on duty is the same, which is the best your tax dollars can buy and once again, may God help you if you have the wrong gun, the wrong bullet or the wrong accessories that you have not been specifically trained on and authorized to use in a very narrow way within the Federal Use Of Force Policy and Threat Continuum. No after market grips, hone jobs, trigger jobs, polishing of actions…nothing. Everything has to be stock and factory. So…I really only know a little bit about a little bit and only what they wanted me to know. I like guns on a personal level, but they were a tool, a very specific tool to be used in a very specific way. And I never varied beyond those…iron clad rules. And when I did buy, collect and use my own guns…guess what? Everything was an exact duplicate of what I happened to be using at work at that particular time and I followed the very same directives in my personal life without deviation or variation. So…you see, it’s like this, compared to you, I don’t know shit from Shinola about guns, bullets, ballistics or anything else related to firearms. And I carried a one (1) million dollar liability insurance policy as everyone else did who wasn’t a fuckin’ idiot that was made available to use to pay for with our own money through our professional association, the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, which also provided us legal counsel up to a point from a staff of lawyers that were paid for by our dues. It wasn’t a union, we were prohibited by law from having a union even though regular federal employees can. Those unions considered us pariah and the bad guys because we did the internal investigations they hired lawyers to fight against. Other employees feared and hated us and management feared and hated us and everyone misunderstood us. Other than that…it was a pretty good job. So bottom line, when it comes to guns, bullets and ballistics, I was just fuckin’ with you. You win.
For example, one time I was instructed by our home office, which was the Office of Law Enforcement and Security at the national level in Washington D.C. to march down the hall and seize the computers off the desks of the Arizona State Director and the Associate State Director. We didn’t work for them. How do you think that went over? We did that kind of stuff all of the time to the field offices and to each other because we would be ordered to eat our own. Nobody liked us and we didn’t even really like ourselves…sometimes.
I will tell you one thing for sure though, I know the National Park Service, the U.S. Forest Service and the BLM law enforcement programs going forward, backwards, sidewards, up and down and in and out.
And every one of them has the highest standards and the finest programs with the best people. the best training, the best equipment your money can buy. You have every reason as a tax payer to be very proud of the law enforcement programs all three of those agencies manage. They are all too notch and operate with the highest standards of integrity. And you know I can dish it out when I think otherwise.
I mean…two of them had the distinct honor of employing me for 22 years…enough said. And out of the three, the National Park Service are the big dogs…WOOF! They are to those three agencies in law enforcement what the US Forest Service is to everyone else in FIRE.
Whoops…although in your case I wasn’t “fuckin’” with you, I was TEASING you, because you know I like to TEASE you.
And if anyone who ever reads anything on this site who isn’t a wildland firefighter, and is going to take just one single invaluable piece of information from me,. And you spent a lot of your tax dollars to teach me this, so consider it at least some payback. The ONE THING…JUST ONE THING, well here is my ONE THING!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X4CvFWCULuI
The reason I always bought the very same guns for my personal life that I used at work, Smith & Wesson specific revolvers, from the Model 36 (5 shot) and Model 19 (66, 686) families, the SIG Sauer Double Action/Single Action (DA/SA) with decocking levers and no safety’s (226, 228, 229, 232, 239 in both 9mm or .40, it’s all the same), Remington 870 Pump Action 12 Gauge Shotguns, and AR-15 (.556/223) carbines such as Colt or FN because they are the same without optics such as scopes, or tactical aiming devices of any kind, iron sites only, and forget about the specialty guns like the Heckler and Koch (H&K) MP 5 and 53 because those are full auto and aren’t civilian options, is because I had so much training and experience on all of those guns and ONLY those guns, that I can pick up any of them, at any time, any place, whether they are my guns or not, and instinctively, automatically and proficiently use all of them without thinking about it because the all important, “manual of arms” is burned into my muscle memory (how each gun specifically operates) under extreme stress while on full auto pilot.
So…if you have any intention to ever use a firearm to defend yourself or others, only allow yourself to have access to those guns that are, or have been in your life and you have gained a similar familiarity, and muscle memory (they say it takes at least 1000 repitions to gain muscle memory) whether that be a single gun or many guns, but don’t switch back and forth between one gun to another that is similar but has a distinctly different “manual of arms.”
For example, switching back and forth between a Sig and a Glock or a Remington 870 and a Mossberg 500, because under extreme stress, you will feel for the slide release lever, or the safety, or decocking lever, or maybe one gun has a safety, but another one doesn’t have a safety, or the magazine release button, or other specific manual of arms operating sequence is different, because if you do, you are highly likely to be standing there fumbling with that gun while the bad guy shoots you dead.
The same thing goes for all of the various retention holsters out there that all have different release mechanisms on them that are all different, or you will still be trying to get your holster to release your gun while the bad guy shoots you dead.
And ideally, your gun should always be in the same place so you don’t reach to your hip for your gun, but remember to late that you wore it in a shoulder holster that day, and you forget where you put your gun that day under extreme stress and the bad guy shoots you dead.
Your welcome, but the fact is, you spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to teach me what I just told you, so no…thank you!
Train like you fight and fight to win every time, no matter what it takes, finish the fight.
And I know that sounds like a lot of guns that are all different manufacturers, calibers, and types of guns…but looks are very deceiving.
Everything I wrote above comes down to only FOUR guns. That is all I know how to instinctively, automatically and proficiently use without thinking about it because the all important, “manual of arms” is burned into my muscle memory (how each gun specifically operates) while under extreme stress and on full auto pilot.
And here they are;
1 revolver
1 automatic pistol
1 shotgun
1 rifle
That’s it, four guns. But I can pick up any of those four guns at any time or place and defend my life and the lives of others. So…thanks again.
P.S.,
And I don’t want to learn how to operate any other types of guns because 1 revolver, 1 pistol, 1 shotgun and 1 Rifle is all I will ever need to know how to use and I don’t want to confuse myself, and you know….get killed.
Clarification,
But just because I don’t want to learn how to use any more guns, doesn’t mean I can’t buy any more guns.
There is an endless list of different calibers and manufacturers that I can add to my gun collection, including most if not all of the guns Joy and I have been bullshitiing about, I will just have to think through the list to make sure what is on it.
I just have to select only those guns regardless of caliber or manufacturer, that doesn’t change my basic equation by adding a new “manual of arms.”
Just as long as I don’t change or add to the FOUR “manual of arms” I have listed for 1 revolver, 1 pistol, 1 shotgun and 1 rifle, I can buy any number of guns in the future, adding both new manufacturers and calibers.
And of course like almost everything in life, there are nuances, but I am just trying to keep it simple.
But here is an example of a change that I would be comfortable making. There is a general lack of interest on the part of most law enforcement officers to maintain their guns, if they aren’t gun people.
So…my agency determined that it would be better to prohibit all optics including scopes and Aim point devices because the average person who isn’t into guns, will just put their rifle with a scope on it into their gun rack and it will bounce around for a few months on rough roads and then the day they really need it, they will pull it out, aim at a threat and the scope, which has bounced way off target will send the round into a bystander and then the bad guy will kill the officer.
So…an easy solution is to prohibit anyone from adding a scope to their rifle by policy and to specify that only iron sights can be used because unlike the military, law enforcement officers generally aren’t engaging threats at long distances, or even moderate distances. So…my manual of arms for a rifle is to use iron sights only because those really can’t be knocked off target.
But…if my rifle has iron sights on it because it came with them, or I purchase them separately and add them, I can have both iron sights and a tactical scope and for me, that is acceptable since I don’t have to follow any ones General Orders now but my own.
And if the tactical scope is damaged and is no longer usable because I dropped the rifle, it is okay because I can strip off the optic and I can still use the iron sights.
I just would never want to have a rifle with an optic only, because they do fail for lots of reasons. And most guns now come without iron sights because it’s assumed that everyone will want a high speed tactical scope, Red Dot, or Aimpoint and never use the iron sights.
But…those kind of variations is something only you can decide is something you can live with…or die because of.
And to even tie this back to wildland firefighting, if I had to pick The ONE THING…JUST ONE THING, well here is my ONE THING for wildland firefighter.
How Big Is Big Enough and remembers…Size Does Matter!
And as a bonus, for wildland firefighter, “Train like you fight and fight to win every time, and no matter what it takes…finish the fight.”
I know about branding–we did about 700 in less than a week–and when I say we, it was Carlie Ray’s Wife, Grace and me. Charlie had back and gut problems and wore some kind of pouch under his shirt for his gut so he couldn’t do much beyond driving his scout and loading a few things–like Frank who he dragged by the hair after he shot him and loaded him into the back of that scout. Well I was a 19 year old cow hand so took orders for my $5 a day, grub and a bunk–which had been demoded to the sand draw after I had shot a few rats off the rafters in the bunk house.
Grace weighed a good 250 and not a fat lady so the horse that held here knew she was there. She could rope as good as any one on that ranch so she would rope the calves and I would run out and flank and tie them. Charlie did help since he had the fire and branding iron hot and would do the branding. So Gary described it pretty well–but Charlie would also cut a notch in their ears to help him identify his stock. Life on the ranch wasn’t easy–and if you were a smoker and ran out of cigarettes, it was a 17 mile hike into town–and Manuel, another hand out there would sometimes do that. He’d walk a mile not for a Camel but 17 for his Lucky Strikes. Then Charlie if he missed him and needed his help would take a trip in to town to pick him up at the Blue Moon Bar. Life on the Range — Not Bad.
So some things were covered up even there–story was that Old Man Brock, Grace’s dad was sick and had a young Chinese gal attending him. He was according to what I was told, going to will the ranch or a big part of it to that Chinese girl. Anyway it never happened since the Chinese gal wound up missing–with Grace and Charlie as suspects. As it ended Grace did get the ranch–I don’t know what her sister that was married to Frank McCauley got. Frank was the Flying A rancher that Charlie shot off the horse after he and Grace got into an argument. So there are a lot of cover ups–some deadly. However if it was true of Grace and Charlie disposing of the Chinese girl, then Karma got them both–Frank wound up with the ranch even though he was in a wheel chair from Charlies 22 short lodged on his spine. He lived ten more years but Grace died soon after loss of the Ranch and I don’t know how much longer Charlie lasted.
In those days cow punching and ranching were not much safer than mining. Maybe they still aren’t.
So about cover ups and the like attributed to government agencies–does happen, more often than we might think. Few people realize that 125 above ground nuclear bombs were exploded in the Nevada Test Site spreading as much or more nuclear fall out as the Chernobyl Nuclear plant explosion. That fallout was tainting snows in New York and pastures in Kansas- and it did not only come from those 125 nuclear bombs but also from 931 underground tests that spewed nuclear dust into the air as well. Yet it took 14 years and Federal Courts to get to documents and facts about these tests.
Now I can see how government did not want people to know they should have been in their bomb shelters since they were being heavily dusted with radiation. It would have stopped their testing–so they had the excuse that this shit was necessary for the defense of the country. Little regard for the citizen there. The reason being is akin to mob violence–when people are in a mob they hang people and do all sorts of nefarious activity without conscience. The same with organizations–many people in them operate under the same principle–organizations have no conscience–and that person is only a subject of the juggernaut –the wheel turns him, he does not turn the wheel. So you see companies polluting the environment, three mile island spewing death making radiation, slurry dropped with deadly chemicals, and anything related to big organization, business and institutions allowing the unthinkable if only a citizen or small group are guilty.
So all the redactions, the cover up and the turning of a disaster where 17 men are outright murdered by careless operations becomes instead an operation by two heroes trying to save Yarnell—something well known that day to be an impossible dream. Why those men were trapped and killed is yet to be totally exposed to the public–but you can see from previous examples that it will not be an easy task.
One thing going for exposing the truth though is that unlike the A Bomb blasts of Nevada, there is no excuse for National Security Reasons. But if I were looking at this is if there were nothing to hide then why the huge amount of redactions and why are some having to sue just to get FOIA information. Delay tactics–the longer they can hide the truth, the better their hope that this will all fade away as will many of the witnesses and people in the know.
John Wayne died of cancer–he was a smoker but he also did a movie involving many horses and much dust in a place that got heavy fall out right after some of the A bomb esplosions in Nevada. That place he filmed in was a hot spot for fall out. It is well known if you are a smoker that the carbon atoms will latch on to the radon and uranium atoms retaining them in the lungs. All old Uranium miners that smoked are now dead or on the death bed with lung cancer. Some facts can not be escaped–but our friendly government did not give me that info when I worked three different Uranium mines. That Uranium was of utmost importance to the defense of this country and miners were to scarce to scare away.
So we hope it will be less than 14 years uncovering the Yarnell hill Wild land killing of 19 and the poisoning of the town of Yarnell with the chemical slurry dumps.
And Yes and branding included castrating and de-horneding as well. And the iron does sizzel when branding. Been there and done that–and it still has to be done if you are a cow poke.
Actually you missed it but I did describe how one cowboy would cut the calf’s ear while it was being castrated. I did however, forget about the dehorning.
Thank you for reminding me of the stench that created that was mixed in with the stench of burning hair and flesh while they screamed.
All and all, it was quite a chaotic environment for someone who didn’t grow up around cowboy work. I was only in 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th, grades during my cowboy years.
Now that I think about it, my cowboy years also included 7th grade and maybe even as late as 8th grade?
No…I think I had moved on with my life by 8th grade and I had established new goals to achieve in my life. And although my plan was still in the development stage at that time, I do know that being a cowboy wasn’t part of it.
Correction,
Strike 3rd grade. I was still in New York at that time auditioning for parts on Broadway.
The cowboy life is the good life–still is. Country life can not be beat even these days as far as I am concerned–but then I have had the good fortune to live it most of my years. I am still living it but could stand to move more back into the desert or woods. But the frontier is mostly gone these days unless you find a place in Alaska or maybe Montana. So I am not a cold weather bird so much these days–but for sure I would rather bare that than live in the confines of a city where I can’t try my rifle out my back door without disturbing neighbors.
Yes it has been over 50 years since I did any serious cowboy work but then I did have about a dozen head of my own cattle, some milk goats, chickens, a couple ornery burros and a good saddle horse. That was a desert area so I was having to haul hay and feed so there was not a lot of profit in doing that on a small scale.
You get to liking some of your stock though and hate to take them to auction. I had one old bull I named Geronimo–and he would hang around like an old pet. That was on five acres I had about 20 miles from here–though there were checkerboard sections of private land open to grazing in those days. Jay and Undine Tindell still live there and I visit them on occasion. They are both in their 90’s and Jay still takes off on his quad with his 22 rifle and little black mutt to kill rabbits. Country life has done them good since I was their neighbor back in the 80’s and see they are still in good health.
He still has the mine car he and I took apart and carried off the top of the Florita Mountains. I took one of the biggest mule deers up about that mine–good deer country if you are a mountain goat. And there are Ibex there too. A couple mexicans I had working for me saw one of them come down a 50 foot bluff and they swore it had to be the Diablo. So life on the desert has plenty of interesting things to do. Well there are not many opera singers around but you can watch them on TV if that is your thing.
Brings back a lot of memories–the kaolinite mine, the agate mines, and right near me is Hilborn Hole with peridot. Green peridot is a beutiful gem–best comes from San Carlos and the Apaches sell it in Globe–so you can get some fine gemstones there–or go over the mountain from Globe and just west of Superior gather your own Apache tears–nodules of smoky clear obsidian that they blast out and let people pick up for a price. Or you can pick them up free west of Mule Creek on that dirt road that crosses over to Clifton Arizona. Those are about 7 miles out and in the sand draw parallel and on the south side of the dirt road but also on the hill sides to the north side of the road. I think I write this cause Ted Putnam likes to hunt rocks and gemstones. And right along the highway going from Clifton across to the Duncan to Safford Highway–you will see diggings of fire agate on the north side–I think maybe 15 miles out from the highway east looking north to see that diggings. Yes I was knowledgeable of where mines and agates and gemstones could be found in this area and did pretty well sometimes gathering and selling to Rock Shops and even for a time had a Rock Shop in Pima, Arizona. So Ted if you do get this way, you now know a couple places to find some good material for your rock collecting.
I have been improving this place and down with the shotgun wound until I better heal before heading out, but I have some intentions.
That was an interesting article about the fire eddies and fire tornados moving at 140 mph speeds in California and ripping bark off trees and such. This is the new age where thinning by natural fires has been thwarted enough that fuel has built up to extreme measures in places. Why the fires like that I would guess. Yarnell had its previous fire in 1965 so that was almost 50 years of growth that went unburned. If you continue toward Prescott from Yarnell you will see the same growth that the men endured and you will wonder how the hell could they manage to get themselves into such an entanglement. There are plenty of areas around Prescott and especially west of Mayhill that are tender boxes ready to go–mountains of manzanita so think it is only fit for a bear to wallow through. Yet you can bet some dumb wild land fire fighter organization will have men in there trying to stop a blaze that will equal that of Yarnell, 2013. There might even be a Juniper tree to save in there.
Juniper trees are worth saving–I have cut quite a few dead ones–they make the best of firewood–smell good and burn nicely except you have to have a screen if you have a fireplace–pops like hell and right out on the floor if you have an open stove. When you cut the dead ones, you uncover those small piss ants–and they will cover you pretty quickly–just keep on cutting and wipe them off now and again–the stings are not that bad and they say good for arthritis.
Well these days the forest service does not want you to cut the dead trees–they claim they are homes to the fauna Well that is partly true since sometimes a pack rat will make a home in one–even a squirrel now and again. But I haven’t seen much of that, so leave them for the wild fires.. I am for cutting the dead wood–and never did like cutting live trees much even though I logged and then cut cedar fire wood for a number of years and kept a lot of people warm around Alamogordo a lot of those years.
There is not a whole lot of money in firewood–a good husky cost about 900 in those days and you needed at least two and then the maintenance and fuel . and splitting the wood by hand the way I was doing it for so long. But you kept in shape and with your beat to hell truck and a good sleeping bag, you could keep a grand or two in your pocket. That was not bad back then but now a grand is not so much. When you pay 75,000 for a Ford now, good lord, more than a house. I never gave over 1500 for my trucks and sometimes as little as $300. Well this 2001 F 150 cost me $2400 but it will drag my kids Toyota Tundra anytime and his is worth $15,000. But depends on what you want –some want a pretty truck they don’t dare scratch–I like one I can take into the bush and not worry much about the paint job–just the mechanical works.
Not much to say about Yarnell at this point–awaiting more revelations. And those are in the wind awaiting the wind catcher.
Whoops, I am 64 years young. And I forgot another bad part of the branding. The HISS as the red hot branding iron was slowly and carefully pressed into their flesh. And of course those big piles of bloody balls were fried up before the cowboys ate them with gusto, mmmmm….bloody fresh Rocky Mountain Oysters. And I have no idea where that name came from, but it is the common name for that particular delicacy.
I did forget to mention the atomic explosions were worse than you might imagine during that testing period.–July 5, 1957 a 74 kiloton hydrogen bomb was suspended by a balloon 1500 ft above the desert floor. Soldiers were stationed between 7 and 10 miles from the blast to see how it effected them. Robert Carter was 17 years old at the time and described the ordeal. They were marched closer to the bomb standing in the open with no trench or other protection. It blew him and his fellow soldiers 40 ft. back onto a mountain side He felt his head and knees banging against the ground and got up finally with a bloody nose and a mouth and face and ears full of dirt. His clothing was cracked and burned. He felt like he was burning alive and the ground was so hot you couldn’t stand it. Then they were marched even closer to the bomb to see how well they would maneuver around such explosion and radiation.
He was sick on the way out and would report to sick call later. As they were leaving the site he saw a chain link fence with barbed wire on top and people inside He said he saw that their skin was peeling off and their hair was falling out. He pointed it out to fellow soldiers–the people had denums but no shirts and were shackled and chained to the fences. When he was hospitalized, he told the nurse, and later there were some doctors came in and told him he had imagined these things. He was told to keep his mouth shut –that he would have to undergo reverse brainwashing for three days while he was locked up. He was told to talk about these things would be treason and you could be hung.
I would have to believe the men shackled in the fences were prisoners who had volunteered to be exposed that way for some promise of release or other benefits.
His take was that he was a happy person before the blast but after never recovered the happiness seeing the huge black cloud of dirt and radiation and those people burned as they were and his continued illness aftermath.
The human body is amazing–although he was able to survive with his fellows, they all suffered radiation sickness and other maladies connected–especially the cancer problem radiation presents.
Those were Atomic Veterans–lately the government has awarded them $75,000 if they are willing to go through the proving process to show they were near a bomb explosion. Of course many die before they get through the process.
There in Yarnell, I had a neighbor that was on a ship when a hydrogen bomb was exploded nearby–he described some of it to me. Well I informed him that he should apply for that money due him for the experimental situations where military people were being exposed like that to radiation effects. He did get paper work and apply. I hope Clint is still alive to collect. He was some older than me–in his 80’s –another atomic Veteran and former guinea pig for radiation tests.
I consider myself an Atomic Veteran–although I was a hard rock miner, I did several years of exposure to high grade uranium ore underground in tight places. Those mines seldom had adequate ventilation so you were not only soaked in radiation but the radon gas infiltrated your lungs. Radon Gas killed a number of miners–even when I was working. If you got into a low place where no ventilation was available and breathed in Radon gas you died. Four had died in the Kerr Mac mine–two went into a low place and two other miners tried to rescue them and died as well. Once you breath in concentrated radon, you can not breath it out–it is so heavy the lungs are not able to expel it–good reason to stay out of uranium drifts where there is no ventilation.
So today two more cancers removed–not so bad like the others–small incisions and a few stitches. The one behind my ear he would not do since it is another large one requiring Mohs surgery. So that will come next then he says I should be pretty well set. I have heard that before, so I keep my fingers crossed.
The public is so fooled by redactions and cover ups–perhaps the excuse that it was for the benefit of all that the american public suffered a great increase in cancer incidence has some value–but the sad thing is we were never told we were guinea pigs and that our lives were considered so valueless to those making the excuses.
It seems like such a hard road to battle against evil–those 125 above ground and 931 below ground tests using men as guinea pigs and polluting the US landscape were evil actions. Yet they were categorized as necessary and heroic deeds. I would have like to have seen the scientists and politicians behind all that standing right beside those soldiers whose lives were sacrificed. But life is not fair–he who has the gold and power makes the rules and rides the soft car.
Thanks to the internet, we do get to work with others and knowledge and understanding of events can be understood and shared–something previously unavailable.
Trump can only bully so many–there are a number of us who have minds and see past the rhetoric.
Oh…and one more thing. Those calves were so terrorized and stressed out, they could kick out their backs legs with their hooves like little mules to try and make me stop twisting their tails, and it really bruised up my shins. You can probably tell…I have a little PTSD from my cowboy years. So…if anyone ever asks you if you want to help them brand…don’t do it.
Oh..and a point of interest from my time in New Mexico because I was always traveling through Magdelana going to somewhere else or coming back from somewhere else. It was called Magdelana because it was where the houses of ill repute (you know…whore houses) back in the day for all of the mines in the surrounding areas, all the way down to Socorro and was named after Mary Magdalene in the Bible.
And this is getting down into the weeds just a little bit, but the Mexican line riders were there for the “season” because The Mountain was under several feet of snow all winter when those men would return to their families in Mexico. And I can assure anyone who is interested, that those men DID not take any job from any American considering what they did and how much money there is in ranching. Nobody makes any money ranching, including the line riders, orbthe ranch hand back in the day or my uncle.
Those people do it for the love of the lifestyle and the tradition of family ranches, although I can’t imagine why? Its sure as hell not for the money because if they are lucky…they will be able to borrow just enough money from the bank to make it to the next shipping season…maybe? But probably not if anything goes wrong and lots of things can and do go wrong.
As a matter of fact, I would rather put my hand in a garbage disposal and flip the switch rather than being a real cowboy like my grandfather and so many of my relatives were and still are.
I’m not talk about a poser who was all hat and no cows like Eric Marsh, I’m talking about the real deal cowboys.
Oh..and all of the other all hat and no cow posers that infest Whiskey Row, especially during “Frontier Days” in the shit hole town that boasts having the “Oldest Rodeo In The World.”
http://www.worldsoldestrodeo.com/
And although my white hot anger over the senseless death of our crew has cooled to a dull red anger over the years, I am obviously still having some anger management issues when it comes to Marsh and Prescott.
All hat and no cows 🐄 posers and Drug Store Cowboys. Prescott is crawling with them 365 days a year, but it takes on epic proportions during the 4th Of July every year.
Actually the gun issue reminds me of a family story. One of my grandfathers brothers was attacked by a black bear 🐻 way back when while he was on horseback up in the mountains by Alpine, which was our ancestral homeland because they were original Mormon pioneers who settled the area.
Anyway…he only had some kind of long single shot rifle because like I said, it was a long time ago. His horse was mauled and bucked him off and then it took off leaving him with the bear. And I dont remember if he sounded it or missed with his one shot, but the bear was mauling him and he survived by ramming that long barreled gun down the throat of the bear killing it.
The rifle is still in the family somewhere and the teeth marks from the bear were clearly visible on the barrel. Like I said, I would have carried a couple of guns just so I didn’t have to look for clubs to beat porcupines to death with if nothing else.
WOUNDED…not sounded.
The bear probably wasn’t attacking my great uncle per se until he was on the ground and the horse was gone. The bear probably wanted to kill and eat the horse and the fact a man was on the horse, probably just wasn’t something the bear thought much about.
Clarification, my uncle’s pick up truck had a stock rack in the back that was maybe six feet high with a gate that opened on the back. So…it wasn’t like the horse 🐎 that was already saddled, had to balance in the back of the truck.
Once it got up in there, the stock gate could closed and latched so the horse was secure with its head out over the cab of the pick up. The second saddled horse was then put into a small one horse trailer that could be pulled behind the pick up truck and we would be off to go back up on The Mountain from town.
And I misspoke, my uncle wouldn’t yell at the horse 🐴 because he never yelled. He would whistle at it, talk to it and make clicking noises and other sounds that were a communication between him and those horses.
Everything was pretty cslm, but at one point, those horses would jump up into the back of the truck and it wasn’t a fluid simple process like having your dog jump up. It more more of an all hell breaking loose scramble by the horse which was where I thought it would break all of its legs and kill both of us in the process because I was holding the reins from the front while my uncle was at the back talking it into jumping up into the back of that pickup truck.
My uncle never even carried a gun at any time up on the mountain and there were mountain lions and bear up there. I would have carried two or three guns with me just for the hell of it. A magnum, an auto and a rifle in a scabbard.
I never ask him why he didn’t carry a gun because for some reason, he would get off his horse, pick up a big stick and beat every porcupine he saw to death and I don’t know why? I would have carried a gun just so I didn’t have to beat porcupines to death with a big stick that I had to find on the ground. Because was a gory and unsettling process, but I’m sure he had a good reason to do it. I just don’t know what it was?
Gary,
I know you love my riddles soooo much
What does Gatlinburg…YH Fire and Paradise have in common?
give you a key letter as I like to hint on IM always
e
Gary…no mention of the .300 Black out today?
The future is 9×39…a new round promising better terminal
Performance
Than subsonic .300 blk
I have try emojis
📖🍕🌵🐾💤💨👍😇😊🔥👋🍳🍦🎼🌃🇺🇸🚒🍫🍭🍪🍰🍔🍟🍺🍻🏊🏄🐰🐶🐱🐱🐒🙈🙉🙊👽🔥🌟💨💪👆🙌🙏🎀did u c hahawhahawaihahawhahawaii tonight
NO…everyone knows the .300 Blackout would make a very poor choice for a modern battle rifle due to the inherent deep flaws and anemic ballistic properties of that particular round. It wouldn’t even penetrate the body armor and ballistic helmets of our principle adversaries at the average distance our military engages the enemy, which is up to about 300 yards.
Where did you come up with that dumb idea anyway? I’m down with the 7.62×51mm NATO until SOCOM eases up on hogging up all the FN SCAR 20’s chambered in a 6.5 Creedmoor, know what I mean…girlfriend?
Oh…and one more thing. I am NOT moving forward until we have more information from those that are hogging that either. This is all part of my “Long Goodbye” as I calculate where I am at currently at with my Executive Summaries.
Because as you know, it is very important for everyone to have access to where my head is at just in case I do stroke out while trying to address the BULLSHIT in that ridiculous article (or something else sets me off) and going forward until such time as YOU or someone like you come clean with what we need to know in order to take the next steps in this frustrating process.
Oh…and one more thing. The military version of the FN SCAR 20 (Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle) chambered in the 6.5 Creedmoor was designed and it is being used by USSOCOM forces as a Sniper Support Rifle (SSR) for the SPOTTER. I guess the actual sniper has the .50 caliber?
But…I will never want to be able to afford almost $10,000 for the civilian version of those rifles plus the glass, which would also be very expensive because I will never be able to shoot nearly as good as those rifles can.
So…it would be a complete waste of money, an even bigger waste of money than stuff I usually waste money on. Much less than probably about $10.00 or more for a match grade .50 bullet to go BANG. or BOOM!
.300 Blackout…you make me LAUGH 😀😃😄😁😆😅😂🤣!
And I am in no way admitting you were right. I’m pretty sure there is a really big difference between a 6.5 Grendel and a 6.5 Creedmoor? I just don’t have any idea what that difference might be…so I’ll have to get back with you on that one?
I mean…is this a great country or what? For about $15,000, you as a civilian, can buy a military grade rifle and scope that you could be trained (if you aren’t already) to actually target and kill someone up to a mile away.
https://barrett.net/firearms/model82a1/
And…it even comes packed in a custom fitted Pelican hard case. Maybe I do want to afford one after all? I could sell a Jeep. And then I will show little miss smarty pants Joy a thing or two…of that you can be assured!
Actually…I think 🤔 I might have been a little high in my guesstimating how much a Barrett would set you back?
I think you could pick one up for about $12,000 or $13,000 including a top of the line scope, their hand guard and even a suppressor?
Maybe even less if you could find one on sale or locate some kind of super saver coupon?
And here I Oregon, there isn’t even any sales tax and that would save anther 6.5 to 10.5 percent.
This is looking better and better. I would really like to show Joy just who is the real certifiable bad ass because she thinks she is all that!
Gun Forum IM Insert
Gary said: NO…everyone knows the .300 Blackout would make a very poor choice for a modern battle rifle due to the inherent deep flaws and anemic ballistic properties of that particular round. It wouldn’t even penetrate the body armor and ballistic helmets of our principle adversaries at the average distance our military engages the enemy, which is up to about 300 yards.
My Reply- they know because I shared it here ages ago not you today. You learned it from me. The future is 9×39. The Blackout will be just a memory.
Gary said: Where did you come up with that dumb idea anyway?
My reply- You. awhile back. You argued with me back in the day when I said Grendel was the future.
Gary said:
Because as you know, it is very important for everyone to have access to where my head is
My reply: I am scared to make a pun or fun here 😉 on our gun forum inserts…soft smiles
Gary said: Oh…and one more thing. The military version of the FN SCAR 20 (Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle) chambered in the 6.5 Creedmoor was designed and it is being used by USSOCOM forces as a Sniper Support Rifle (SSR) for the SPOTTER. I guess the actual sniper has the .50 caliber?
My Reply: wrong…Most snipers are using .300 Winchester Magnum…some use .338 LAPUA
Gary Said: more for a match grade .50 bullet to go BANG. or BOOM!
My reply: you will love then my car license plate…it has all to do with Barrett and /or m-2 and its caliber
Gary said- .300 Blackout…you make me LAUGH 😀😃😄😁😆😅😂🤣!
My reply- I had to explain to you awhile back that it was a short range cartridge for pig hunting not a military cartridge…someone has dementia,…you are the .300 blk man and I am glad to see you finally laughing.
Gary said: And I am in no way admitting you were right. I’m pretty sure there is a really big difference between a 6.5 Grendel and a 6.5 Creedmoor? I just don’t have any idea what that difference might be…so I’ll have to get back with you on that one?
My reply- Longer brass and more powder gives you longer range, duh. Poor thing. Glad I can be here for you to help out.
Gary said: Actually…I think 🤔 I might have been a little high in my guesstimating how much a Barrett would set you back?
My Reply: You want more accuracy than the .50 then pick the .416 Barrett- you are welcome Gary…you can call me the HAL 6.5 😉
I will leave you now with some noise Gary
https://youtu.be/e1j5vGO5Knw
You said something about shooting steel – I like moving targets – might be the hunter in me or ones who can shoot back…you have to know by now I like a challenge.
All this gun talk makes me miss Sonny…it is how we began our journey…I would always correct him and he was like kid I was killing deer long before you were alive and even today I corrected him…some areas on guns I am naturally inclined to know because of the people I know…very high folks in the military…I mean my husband and I always spent Valentine’s going to our friends big gun machine gun shoots as a way to show we care…and every year even when knowing Sonny we went to a pal’s to shoot off all his rare guns or what better way to see what’s new in guns than the Game and Fish Expo where you will see my husband’s company displaying the newest current weapons and other manufacturers. That is the way to spend your day or deep in the nest of Moab near the Dead Horse trail 😉
Well we did some shooting–you can remember that 7mm mag–it was a hum dinger and accurate. It was a Remington–if one needed a sniper rifle during war time that one would do it. But the old model 70 Winchester was the good one–still is if you can get a early model–Winchester did a good copy of the Mauser and if you really want to get a very good Mauser and my preference is the 30-06 Swedish Husquevarna. The one I had took a few deer in the long range and could put five in an inch at 100 yards and I could do that off a rest. Those Swedes know their steel and no better rifle can be found –I dont care if you pay 15 grand–that 700 dollar rifle will match your high price gun for accuracy.
And I don’t know the answer to this riddle either. What does Gatlinburg…YH Fire and Paradise have in common?
answer: evil
it actually is an “in person” answer and that is stored with the right folks Gary “just in case”
it is 2-11-19 1pm and I wont be able to come on a pc for a long while as I head out to rough it and hope to come back a certified FF…take care…was fun catching up 🙂
And why are you going to Moab and with whom? You aren’t a Jeeper. Who do you know who owns a Jeep? What kind is it and how is it modified and with what accessories? Please send me a photo. Unfortunately, I won’t be down there for another couple of months because everything was booked up and I couldn’t get in anywhere even though I started trying months ago because of the two big Jeep events. The Jeep Safari over three weekends including Easter is the biggest one. Are you going up there for that? You know Deadhorse Point was what “Thelma and Louise” drove off…right?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=66CP-pq7Cx0
Or short version for you Type A people
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4z88U915uq8
And you know it’s hard to play both “Good Cop” and “Bad Cop” at the same time with the same person…especially in the Cyber Space. So, you should cut me some slack…I’m doing the very best I can under the circumstances.
You are a tough nut 🥜 to crack…so I finally had to give up and admit defeat.
Plus…I really didn’t care because I don’t Jeep like that anyway. Too many Jeeps and people and the wait times are too long. It’s way worse than Disneyland on the last weekend before school starts. Although I do like to look at all of the eye candy.
I mean…it’s not uncommon to see rigs that are north of a hundred grand plus the original cost of the Jeep during the next 2.5 months.
People, Concepts, and Entities I Intend To Condemn
1. Maclean & NEIL Inc.
I believe Maclean, NEIL and their Posse. have always had predetermined conclusions regarding the causal factors of the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and have engaged in fruitless and disengenous searchs for deliberately misinterpreted and misleading facts to support their preconceived and false conclusions. I completely dismiss their ridiculous and bogus, “Lookout Marsh, Cut Staub, Pilot Line, and Hidden Messenges From The Beyond in Radio Traffic” theories as at best…distractions and at worst…fraudulent attempts to shift the responsibility for the deaths of the crew through gross misdirection. So…you know…fuck them and the horses they rode in on. I think all of their bullshit is directly tied to their close association with and cultivation of, the “Sqeaky Wheel” families in order to gain access to highly prejudicial and politically motivated claptrap and ridiculous key inside information that is purportedly true in order to support what at the end of the day is their profit motive. Although when I actually write my book, I will tell you how I really feel and what I think without holding back nearly as much as I am now in the interest of keeping this category concise.
2, The National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG) for their outdated and deeply flawed wildland firefighters training that includes their over dependence on on-line training courses and their member agencies abdication of their responsibilities to adequately train their wildland firefighters to third parties who are profit motivated. Why I am so confident I am right? Because the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew laid down in the dirt to be burned alive in an area about the size of a three car garage when they needed up to 16.5 acres to escape death and serious injuries from burns IF they would have been inside of their fire shelters and sufficiently prepared for the onslaught of 60 foot horizontal flame lengths at temperatures that may have exceeded 2000 degrees they were about to experience and I think many of them never even sufficiently got inside their basting and roasting bags. And those stupid fucks (the NWCG) and their sycophants, sympathizers, enablers and members seen to think that everything is fine after more than five years without making any noticeable or measurable improvements in the way they do business.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Wildfire_Coordinating_Group
https://onlinetraining.nwcg.gov/
I need to go take my blood pressure pill and a baby aspirin…but I’ll be back after I lie down in the dark and listen to some Enya on my Ipod for a while. Maybe a long while because I’m trying to build up enough strength and the patience of Job before I even attempt to address the article that was written by the well meaning but seriously brain damaged and completely ignorant structural firefighter whose link shall remain nameless right now. Although I think I might have already really fucked up and posted it once but I can’t remember right now because it happened before I woke up this morning. It’s hard to be me. You should just try it for one day and see how you would like to be me…it’s complicated.
Oh…and one more thing. I’m still not a fan of the whole backfire out the Shrine Area Cocept either, but I haven’t made up my mind on that one…yet because my mind is like a steel trap that in normally closed. But in the case if the Shrine backfire, I’m not ready to condemn it yet because The Woodsman has bought into it even though Joy has assured me via this thread that he is in fact…a “Keyboard Commando.” and that doesn’t sound good. And I’m still waiting for HAL 9000 to, “get off his ass” and go help Joy. Hahaha…the joke is on her because HAL 9000 doesn’t even have an ass…just ports for miscellaneous peripheral devices.
And I don’t know about the rest of you, but I was kinda amused when President Trump assured the nation that he has a big penis even though he has really tiny little hands during one of his speeches at a for his supporters at a Trump Rally and the adult film actress, otherwise known as a Porn Star, assured the nation she could in fact, describe President Trumps penis.
But my “Weird Shit O’Meter” is peggged out that every time I turn on the news now, I have to hear about a stranger than fiction connection between President Trump, David PECKER, the National Inquirer, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Intelligence Services, the brutal torture, murder and dismemberment of a Washington Post reporter, the bimbo girlfriend of the founder of Amazon, and the text photo of the penis of the richest man in the world!
Is it just me, or does there seem to be a lot of random connections in the news between the Trump Adminisration and penis’ that I just don’t remember ever hearing anything about during the administration of any other American President, Democrat or Republican?
I mean…I remember the good ole days when I could count on the National Inquirer to just keep me up to speed on the latest about alien abductions and the subsequent births of alien babies by alien impregnated male Trump Supporters while I waited in the check out line. What is up with these news cycles these days?
And what the hell happened to RTS anyway. Don’t tell me he has been abducted and impregnated by an alien? I’m starting to get worried about him because I know how he feels about abortions and I don’t think it would be healthy for him to carry an alien baby to full term and a partial birth abortion is definitely out of the question,
And by the way, as a Christian, I do share RTS’ views on abortion, I just didn’t think I would ever have to wonder how he feels about abortion now that he might be actually carrying an alien baby? I do know how I would feel, I would want to make an exception in my case, I mean…an alien baby could really hurt coming out even with a spinal block, know what I mean? And the costs associated with raising an alien baby would be through the roof, what about T ball and college? OMGosh…there are no end to the questions I have.. I hope it’s not true and RTS isn’t really carrying an alien baby after his recent abduction. I hope they just PROBED him instead, but I definitely don’t want to read about it, so just keep it to yourself RTS. And maybe the National Inquirer…okay Big Guy?.
It’s obvious isn’t it? I would much rather think and write about RTS’ recent alien abduction and impregnation because I am just avoiding the 800 pound gorilla in the room 🦍 and I just can’t bring myself to finish reading, much less analyzing and then writing about that bullshit article written by the well meaning but certifiably stupid fuck of a structural fireman 🚒 who always shows up in a big red truck.
Say…did you hear the one about the dingy woman (Oh no…I feel myself slipping back into the abyss of misogyny) whose house was on fire, so she called up the fire department to report it? She started to hang up before she gave them her address, so the FIREMAN 🚒 said…”Wait…how do we get there?”
“Duhhhhhhh” replied the woman…”Big Red Fire Engine 🚒!”
I mean…I don’t want to sound like I am unappreciative or anything because I guess it’s better now having at least somebody thinking and writing about wildland firefighters, especially hotshots than it was in my day when nobody did either one?
But…does it have to be one stupid fuck of a FIREMAN 🚒 who doesn’t know shit from Shinola about being a wildland firefighter, much less a hotshot other than what he picked up from who has to be the dumbest fuck who ever laced up a pair of Whites and saddle up so he could hump it up the mountain…Shit-For-Brains Sad Sack (of shit) Donut 🍩 Hole? I mean…REALLY? C’mon man!
I would really rather like to know how RTS’ pregnancy is coming along? Does anybody know what trimester he is in?
Whoops, I meant to write;
People, Concepts (general ideas) THEORIES (educated guesses) and Entities I Intend To Condemn [in my tome and aptly renamed, “Our Fire Gods Betrayed Us…And Broke Our Hearts”]
Hey…check out the rifle I bought yesterday. I know I didn’t need it, but I got drunk as a sailor and this was the result. Do I regret it? No! I need to go on a road trip to New Mexico and go shooting with Sonny and Charlie.
https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/gun-test-sig-sauer-sig716-dmr/
And I know it’s not a 6.5 Grendel, but they said everything they could make was going to Serbian SOCOM.
Although I am taking a hard look at the 6.5 Creedmoor Fabrique Nationale Herstal (FN) Banana Split SCAR 20S just as soon as our SOCOM stops buying up every single one of them FN can make because I don’t want another 7.62×51mm NATO. And Joy thinks I can’t change, mature and grow as a person.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q0X3xEBu41g&t=1s
Ckeck out that video when that dude is laying on the ground shooting the SCAR 20s, I bet if he were a left hand shooter (and standing up) every one of those hot brass would be going down his shirt. That only has to happen once to make a believer out of you. Thank God I am right handed, just the way God intended shooters to be or they would make rifles like that with brass deflectors.
beautiful noise
Thank You Gary
been out as long as we have been here…upgraded version…but wow it makes me feel good to hear the ding, ding, ding
thanks
Caseless Ammo is the future
Everything else is just same old…same old
Gary Said:
I believe Maclean, NEIL and their Posse. have always had predetermined conclusions regarding the causal factors of the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster
I disagree
I think this is a layered onion and I think they fall trap to more data as many you have been naming out recently except yourself in this…you are exempt because you are…but there is alot of people who have areas they heard or rumored or this or that but there is not enough data made public to be assertive to place them in predetermined conclusions but I think for all of you out there you can ask for the FOIA and Public Records Index Log and do your own homework who is crossing “t’s” and dotting their “i’s” in this…
You want me to place something on IM prematurely for some odd reason and you really feel RTS is with me and we are in cahoots and not factual. I am in Congress Arizona possibly soon to head to Moab for my jeep trailing fun or am I already here in Moab….
He has allowed me at certain educational conferences and we have made a pact to meet ever so to get data made to make a post that you do like but don’t like…stop being so hungry for the YH Fire words and wanting more and more…
see you in Moab when you get here 😉
They have shared areas without resources yet but it may come out in their book. I am not concerned to label them such way but unfortunately alot of us are being labelled by Gary…
I think you can be so calloused at times and off the charts especially aliens ????
I was disappointed that I got texts and I have been tempted at times to show them that someone in their “posse” (as you state and call it) told me Amanda Marsh was at peace with me until I saw the reaction I did last school year and I let it go but if it kept continuing year after year- it is not on me – it is on her and I am not stopping training because I am not welcome there by some.
I am at peace.
I am glad you are still allowed here Gary even if you have times of ill-sharing that many call attacks You make me a better person for being here and alive and freely sharing.
You make me miss xxxfullsailxxx and the whole memories where EN emails JD she is in this for the hikers and yet the stance of verbiage was towards her not the hikers from xxxfullsailxxx
NWCG does need a refresher and I agree there.
I have to stay mindful and get my areas done
I am sorry if I am not engaging much with you my dear old time friend.
It is unfortunate you do not see the beauty in all of us on IM
I am not just a tour guide as you feel and maybe others as you proved on IM you have a following
I have taken my 970th hike but that does not include the many I did over and over for some
IF ONLY one RIGHT person out of all those hikes was there
I am thinking it was beneficial
This past year all the training and conferences
IF ONLY one RIGHT person out of all those…
Out of almost 500 people I directly helped after the YH Fire try to pick the pieces and still have to keep burying more and more people
IF ONLY one RIGHT person out of all those…
I do not need an audience
I have Jesus…
I know this
My roots do not keep me warm
I always believed in areas I should not have until I listened to you on IM years ago
across the times I know you are a Blessing to my life
I am sorry I am thorn to yours-
Until we are old and keep growing I will always look to you as my mentor and part of the process of knowing my true self
Forever grateful for you
True
I had a stuffed animal (gorilla) who I named “Nothing” as a child…his first name was Congo that was given to him by Russ the manufacturer but at the time I kept being told due to my surroundings I would never be anything…funny I cannot say it was my inner voices…it is the lady laying in hospice right now and I am struggling do I go visit after all the decades of the torment…then yesterday I usually read the scripture part of ODB ( https://odb.org/2019/02/09/discovering-my-true-self/ ) and my partner had me read it because he was not there to read it so I did and the tears flew so gracefully down my cheek and all I could think about was that gorilla I named Nothing and I thought to you the past 2 or too many seasons discounting my time spent just here because I have to place the data in a way I do not hurt a woman who was married 68 years and went to CA to bury her husband to come back to see her home and world changed forever due to the “orange” gorilla of another. and too many others I live here means just that and you can respect or disrespect. When time has passed and certain people showed me their emails with you in it I did become selective in sharing behind the scenes with you and WTKTT (due to same reason on the Sesame to Shrine lack of faith and your building audience) and JD because last Summer JD did not GET my data is all encrypted and not easy to get to and it had other areas of my own life on the EHD that I was not going to ALLOW JD to just copy the whole thing (it is all messy and mixed in with intent)….I needed to take the time out and do it and I do not even allow RTS to know the data so you are wrong to think he knows anything…however we decided then I am going forward in my life away from the fire last Summer (live my life outside the fire) but we would meet ever so and slowly process this out not fast and that has been hard for RTS too and others because they wanted more faster and sooner.
My roots do not keep me warm but the love of Him does…
Have fun in Moab and hope to bump into you there-
Take Care!
enjoy the upcoming Holiday everyone…
Of course you disagree with me!
What do you think about the big news though? The word on the street is that RTS was abducted by aliens, impregnated, he is carrying his alien baby to full term and is going to send it to NAU…my alma mater?
So…are you as excited for RTS as I am? When you talk to him, tell him to call me and I will give him the inside scoop on NAU. It’s a good college, but it’s not for everybody. It’s get pretty cold there in the winter time and it usually gets quite a bit if snow. I also heard that RTS wants to start his alien baby on skiing lessons just as soon as it is old enough, so NAU might be a good choice? The Snow Bowl is just up the mountain past the Flagstaff Hotshot Ranch…those lucky fucks!
And remember Joy, it’s not personal…it’s just business.
Gary Said:
And remember Joy, it’s not personal…it’s just business
My reply- gotcha.
We do agree though March 15 is a better time to just bump into each other at the Dead Horse Point Trail…right?
it it is true this rumor you are hearing we shall name it Chemosh
why don’t you do a book on hidden gems starring Gary 😉
if it is true…
correction
it it is true
that did not go right
darn thing
correction if it is true…
Now you are just humoring me. I wonder how far away that guy’s steel is? I count three seconds (maybe a littke more?) at 2600 feet per second, let’s see…that’s about…well, I bet he has it at 9000 feet or 100 yards which would be like shooting fish 🐟 🐠 in a barrel even for a 7.62×51mm NATO, especially with that scope, damn…right Joy? You know I still love you the sinner, I just don’t love your sin of not telling us what you know.
Except for that wind, talk about bullet drift! I bet that Nightforce scope he has on that SCAR cost almost as much than the rifle did. And it cost $4600 plus some change, except it is probably a loaner to him from FN.
Maybe when this is all over you and I can shoot some steel? Except I don’t want you to do to me what Charlie did to Sonny…okay girlfriend? 🙂
I’m not knockin’ the guys skill level thoug, because he is obviously a shooter. He just wanted us to be able to hear the rifle go “BANG” and then hear the steel ring. I bet that guy could hit that steel at 600 yards even in that wind…no problem. What do you think Joy?
Whoops,
I meant to write $4500.00. I think my mind is getting mushy. Maybe I should get an MRI and have my brain tumor checked after all?
https://fnamerica.com/products/fn-scar-series/fn-scar-20s/
I hate the full on 🍌 split color scheme though. What were they thinking?
Although I should have added, “IF you can find one for sale!” You might have to pay 💰 a premium mark up on the damn things for awhile until supply catches up with demand.
FN’s website say’s “800 yards with ease”, I bet the 6.5 Creedmoor does 1000 yards with ease, what do you think Joy?
This is called “establishing rapport” with your subject at FLETC. Do you think it is working with Joy? Or do you think she is on to me, because she’s pretty sharp you know?
Gary said- FN’s website say’s “800 yards with ease”, I bet the 6.5 Creedmoor does 1000 yards with ease, what do you think Joy?
MY Reply:
Yes 6.5 Creedmoor was designed up to 1600 yards but a DM would not be taking those long shots-
I thought that was what sniper rifles were made for-
wee more training would be required, eh? no?
you are becoming the George Carlin of Wildland Fire Industry…Hal 9000 does not have an ass…sure does…https://www.google.com/search?q=computer+ass&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFloyU_LLgAhWUGjQIHRcPAcUQ_AUIDigB&biw=1396&bih=686#imgrc=KnJ1TqESE3HsXM: … totally kidding…I thought he was a Democrat…and the symbol for Democrats are Donkeys…right?
Me sharp? Nah…but I know what needle says to the other…you look sharp today.
Jokes fly over my head gary- along with big jets full of slurry drops…stay focused…keep your eyes on the weather and fire…
Plus you quitting- not in you.
Sometimes you are too SUPER hilarious for your own good…the whole Alien impregnation and Sonny did not chime in shocks me…
Remember we are suppose to cease here until we come up with better data for Hal 9000…back to concentrating on other tasks.
Caio!
You got me here when you talk ballistics not get ballistics…duh
I know I got a little off message today and went down a few rabbit 🐇 holes and I feel bad about it…I really do. Especially after you so cruelly mocked me by writing, “why don’t you do a book on hidden gems starring Gary” because I don’t think you really meant that.
I am going to try and get a good nights sleep tonight so I can get my head straight and least think about finishing reading that article by the well meaning but stupid fuck FIREMAN and respond accordingly over the next few days…I need to ease into it so I don’t have a stroke.
Plus, I have some more, “People, Concepts, and Entities I Intend To Condemn” to add to my greatest hits list.
And this one will probably really surprise you IF you have been following my thinking the last FIVE YEARS, but I’m going to add the Yarnell Hill Fire Team to my as yet unpublished “Gets a Pass” list. This last five years plus has been a real personal growth experience for me, almost a spiritual journey for my soul and I have matured quite a bit as a person and learned so much in the tortured and convoluted process.
And it’s not just because Roy Hall and I knew each other when we were little kids. Or because we were partners in crime together because one day his brother (I think he was the older of the two) and I broke into one of the buildings on the Milky Way Ranch that belonged to John Wayne and some partners named Johnson from down in Eloy, Arizona…I think? Anyway, we didn’t even steal anything and I don’t even know why we burglarized the joint in the first place or how we got out there because it was a really long way from town. And I only had a skateboard to get around on and no bike. Maybe we walked out there, but it was a really long way to walk?
I mean…that story goes way beyond my whole “One or two degrees of separation” in the wildland firefighting community concept to the next level and is a really weird connection…right?
1600 hundred yards? I know military snipers hit man size targets up to one mile away with a McMillian or Barrett .50 caliber, but 1600 yards with a 6.5 Grendel? Let’s see now…that’s…that’s…that’s…a really long way.
Yes…we are definitely going to have to shoot some steel when this is all over…girlfriend! I obviously could use some schoolin’!
And when you talk to RTS, tell him he should definitely opt for the Caesarian, othwise…this is what he is going to look like when he has his alien baby.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5OVdoTDuKT0
Memo To Self;
Be sure to add,, “objectivity and integrity” as in…Maclean & NEIL surrendered theirs in exchange for access to the Sqeaky Wheel Families.
And I can’t remember if that bullshit was called a “Scout Line” or a “ Pilot Line.” In any case, it’s a “Bullshit Line.”
Marsh killed his crew…accept it so we can move on and fix why he killed his crew.
P.S., You stupid self serving fucks!
Joy,
I’m going to write this one more time to see if I can get through to you. You knew where you lived before you ever started down this road. And because you knew where you lived before you ever started down this road, I don’t now accept that as a reason why you can’t contribute what you have to this effort just like everyone else has without holding back. A person can’t kill their parents and then ask for sympathy, make excuses, or get a pass because they are an orphan.
And as far as your investment goes…let me tell you about mine. If someone wants to rent me for a project, based on my education, training and experience, it will cost them a minimum of $150.00 per hour, plus expenses. And my clock runs even when I am sitting on the toilet thinking about their project. Based on those numbers…how much do you think I have invested in this thread? I can’t count that high…can you?
Everyone else here is in the same position I am, no one’s time is free. How much do you think you would have to pay HAL 9000 based on his knowledge, skills and abilities? I don’t know either because I can’t count that high, nor could I afford hiim.
Your investment here based on your education, training and experience in the area we are studying is worth very little beyond your telling us of your personal observations from the day of the fire. You are worth a great deal as a hiking guide to people who want to tour the area…but that doesn’t help us here. It helps those you have guided, but unlike Sonn…your life’s experiences don’t apply here.
The Woodsman summed up what I was trying to say, but as usual he said it much better than I did because he is so much more articulate than I am while expressing himself because of his command of the English language, his vocabulary and his writing skill. So…I am not going to try again to express my own thoughts any further…I am just going to say, “Ditto”, to what he wrote down below.
In addition…I have decided to terminate my own participation on this thread and in fact…”I won’t be back.” I am going to post my thoughts and further writing on my own website where I don’t have to fret about what anyone else is doing or not doing. I hope you and RTS are very content sitting on the information you have gained while participating here on this thread. What good is it going to do to save wildland firefighters lives in the future? Can you answer that question for me?
Never mind, I won’t be back to read your response even though I know you will have a long one that wont make any sense to me. I for one…am no longer interested in what either you or RTS know, think, or think you know.
Oh…and one more thing. They have always known time was on their side and all they had to do was wait for us to wind down. So…they win…again.
1. “Once may be anomaly, twice may be a coincidence, but three times is definitely a pattern.”
2. “How Big Is Big Enough Because Size Does Matter?”
3. “Train like you fight, and train to win every time because under stress…we all revert to our training on autopilot.”
4. “Hubris is the Number 1 killer of hotshots.”
5. “Our Fire Gods Betrayed Us…And Broke Our Hearts”
6. “The FIRE can’t think ahead to make plans or develop tactics and strategies. And it must follow all of laws of nature all of the time and therefore it is completely predictable. There isn’t any acceptable reason why we shouldn’t win every time without the loss of life or serious injuries barring a random act of fate..”
7. “Wild land firefighters including hotshots aren’t hero’s, they are for the most part ordinary people who are willing and able to accomplish extraordinary tasks when called upon to do so in the service of their fellow man (and women)”
8. “There aren’t any saints on the fireline; there are just a bunch of sinners who love to fight wildfire.”
9. “The 10 and the 18 are sound safety rules and guidelines that have been painstakingly developed one at a time over more than 100 years of wildland firefighting at the cost of hundreds of lives to keep wild land firefighters safe on the fireline. When wild land firefighters ignore or violate them, they do so at their own peril and risk not only their lives, but the lives of those they are responsible for and wildland firefighting history will judge them accordingly..”
10. The three things that are most important to wildland firefighters is tradition, tradition and tradition. They have been trained to fight today’s wildfires like they fought yesterday’s wildfires. Unfortunately…tomorrow’s wildfires are increasingly becoming wildfires the like of which no one has seen before that are outperforming everyone’s expectations. Wild land firefighters have been trained to fight fire in a logical progression, painting by the numbers, step 2 follows step 1, step 4 follows step 3, step 6 follows step 5 and so on and so forth until the fire has been defeated. If the fire does A, we are trained to respond with Plan A, if the fire does B, we are trained to respond with Plan B, if the fire does C, we are trained respond with Plan C. This is what I call “Linear Firefighting” and it has served us well for decades. Unfortunately…wildfires are increasingly exponentially outperforming the old models and I think wildland firefighting best practices get in front of this trend by training to respond with “Expodential Firefighting.” I believe the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster was an extreme case of linear firefighting techniques meeting exponential fire behavior and the wildfire won. And it could have been so much worse except we really got lucky because dozens of citizens if not hundreds of them could have died. I still can’t believe no residents did die in the fire.
That’s a really long set up to be able to write, “Linear firefighting tactics and strategies are no match for exponential fire behavior.”
Oh…by the way, I am trying to sum up my random thoughts on wildland firefighting from the past five years before I go so those thoughts can forever be memorialized on this thread because it’s very important for everyone to know what I think.
11. Buy a respirator and use it at least during mop up because the outdated “Bandit Method” of utilizing a large handkerchief just isn’t enough and it never has been to keep all kinds of nasty particulates from potentially having a negative impact on your throat and lungs. Seriously…buy one and use it.
12. And remember there is always an alternative to laying down in the dirt and being burned alive if the area that is available to you to deploy a fire shelter is not survivable by developing and keeping a winning mindset to, “Finish the Fight.” And if need be…die on your feet while trying to create distance between yourself and the threat because like the NIFC website says;
“As always, the fire shelter is the last line of defense when facing a fire entrapment, escape is always the highest priority. Fire shelters will not guarantee a firefighter’s survival in an entrapment situation. Firefighters should do everything they can to avoid situations where they need to deploy a fire shelter.”
https://www.nifc.gov/fireShelt/fshelt_main.html
I3. In this day and age, if Walmart can track every truck they operate and individual containers of fish and other perishables with cheap, widely available and easy to use GPS beacon locators, we should be able to do the same with significant assets on fires…like hotshot crews. Not so close air support can be sent to save them such as idiots like Sad Sack and that stupid movie say is possible, but so so Plans knows where significant resources are located on a fire at any given time for a whole host of good and logical reasons.
And if you want to know the dangers of keeping on perpetuating what I call the, “Big Lie” from the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster, just read this article. It’s enough to make me feel nauseated 🤢!
https://www.firerescuemagazine.com/articles/print/volume-13/issue-3/departments/wildland-urban-interface/hotshots.html
14. It would take minds with far more capabilities than mine and significant resources to answer the following question, but I really would like to know the answer.
“Aside from the human tragedy and cost that is associated with the Yanell Hill Fire Disaster that is incalculable, I would like to know how much money the Arizona Department Of Forestry and Fire Management saved by fighting fires “on the cheap” as policy when compared to the catastrophic losses as a result of the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster because they sent a poorly trained, poorly equipped, poorly managed, poorly led, and most of all…a poorly motivated prison hand crew to kill the baby dragon on the mountain in its lair?
I know all of my assumptions are true because this crew in fact failed to kill the baby dragon on the mountain and as a result of their incompetence and dereliction of duty…it grew into a monster that managed to engage in immeasurable destruction before it finally burned itself out.
IF the crew would have been wearing locator beacons and IF an air tanker would have been available to drop on their exact location (which apparently it was in this freak incident) no one should ever, under any circumstances even think about depending on close “air support” to ever save them…IMHO.
Because based on my extensive experience as a hotshot at the front of the so many fires I have now forgotten about most of them when air tankers were dropping on us, the variables that are present with every retardant drop every time are so innumerable and the outcomes are so uncertain given so many unknowns, air support was never a factor in any decision I ever made about anything pertaining to my crew and I doubt if that has changed.
Wildland firefighting and military combat have many similarities, but whoever thinks close air support is one of them is either completely uniformed, or a complete idiot…IMHO.
Wildland firefighting does NOT have any aircraft that even begin to minic the “close air support” capabilities that those completely uninformed people or idiots are equating with military options like, “The Angel of Death,”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_AC-130
or “Warthogs.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II
No way…no how…so forget about it!
In other words, if you have made a series of mistakes so bad and violated so many of the 10 (rules) and the 18 (guidelines) that you have managed to position yourself or your crew in such an untenable position where you are hoping for close air support to save you, you might as well bend over and kiss your ass goodbye because you are already dead…unless you have the mindset and you can save yourself by “Finishing The Fight” on your own….which you must do.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
February 8, 2019 at 9:41 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I3. In this day and age, if Walmart can
>> track every truck they operate and
>> individual containers of fish and other
>> perishables with cheap, widely available
>> and easy to use GPS beacon locators,
>> we should be able to do the same with
>> significant assets on fires…like hotshot
>> crews. Not so close air support can be
>> sent to save them such as idiots like
>> Sad Sack and that stupid movie say
>> is possible, but so so Plans knows where
>> significant resources are located on a
>> fire at any given time for a whole host
>> of good and logical reasons.
Just a few days ago… that all actually just took a step closer to becoming a LAW ( at least for Federal fires ).
Senate Bill 47
The Natural Resources Management Act
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/47/text
Just 3 days ago, on February 5, 2019, the U.S. Senate finally had the ‘vote to proceed’ on this and it passed with 99 out of 100 Senators voting ‘Yes’.
Only Kentucky Senator Rand Paul voted ‘No’.
The next step is a REAL ‘vote’ on the bill in the Senate, then it goes to the House for a vote, then to the President’s desk for signature.
No word on how much longer all that will take… but with 99 out of 100 Senators voting ‘Yes’… that’s a good sign that all they have to do is get off their asses and push the bill forward and it will receive the same almost-unanimous support in the House.
What the dipshit in the Oval Office might do is, of course, anyone’s guess… but he would be hard pressed to refuse to sign something coming our of both houses of Congress with near-unanimous support.
From the text of the bill at the link above…
———————————————–
SEC. 1114. Wildfire technology modernization.
(a) Purpose.—The purpose of this section is to promote the use of the best available technology to enhance the effective and cost-efficient response to wildfires—
(d) Location systems for wildland firefighters.
(1) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of this Act, subject to the availability of appropriations, the Secretaries, in coordination with State wildland firefighting agencies, shall jointly develop and operate a tracking system (referred to in this subsection as the “system”) to remotely locate the positions of fire resources for use by wildland firefighters, including, at a minimum, any fire resources assigned to Federal type 1 wildland fire incident management teams.
(2) REQUIREMENTS.—The system shall—
(A) use the most practical and effective technology available to the Secretaries to remotely track the location of an active resource, such as a Global Positioning System;
(B) depict the location of each fire resource on the applicable maps developed under subsection (c)(3);
(C) operate continuously during the period for which any firefighting personnel are assigned to the applicable Federal wildland fire; and
(D) be subject to such terms and conditions as the Secretary concerned determines necessary for the effective implementation of the system.
(3) OPERATION.—The Secretary concerned shall—
(A) before commencing operation of the system—
(i) conduct not fewer than 2 pilot projects relating to the operation, management, and effectiveness of the system; and
(ii) review the results of those pilot projects;
(B) conduct training, and maintain a culture, such that an employee, officer, or contractor shall not rely on the system for safety; and
(C) establish procedures for the collection, storage, and transfer of data collected under this subsection to ensure—
(i) data security; and
(ii) the privacy of wildland fire personnel.
—————————————————
WOW…that is Big News indeed since I didn’t even know it was on anybody’s radar screen. Thanks
And like I said with the smoke inhalation, medical disability retirement issue, at least somebody is aware there is a problem, which is a huge step forward.
And when I said the slurry bombers were dropping on us, I meant of course they were dropping on the head of the fires, we were inconsequential in the equation.
But, I have seen slurry bombers miss their targets far more than I have seen them hit them. And I’m not talking trash any of those pilots because you would have to put a gun to my head and make me believe you were going to kill me if I didn’t climb up into a bomber to get me to go for a ride with those fearless daredevils.
It’s just that there are too many variables and other unknown factors that come into play that keep anything like what you could call a precision drop from becoming a reality.
This is what close air support looks like for front line infantry from an A-10 Thunderbolt (Warthog) there just isn’t an equivalent in wildland firefighting and I don’t believe there ever will be.
BAD ASS…and I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of this!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dHgSuLZCWj8
And if they ever do develop anything that comes down in a more efficient targeted way, I don’t think you would want it coming down on you because it would probsbly seriously injure or kill you. Water💧 , which of course is the base ingredient of slurry can’t be compressed because it is so solid and it is very heavy at 8 pounds per gallon. Don’t those VLATS, which didn’t exist back in the day, carry 11,000 gallons? That would be 88,000 pounds of a base ingredient alone which could be coming down at the same airspeed of the bomber, maybe 160 mph or more? Ouch!
Tex Gilligan
7:54 AM (0 minutes ago)
to Arizona.Desert.Walker
I agree with you. We have both been a thorn to the system–My allegiance is more to the citizens–they took the greatest hit and huge number of deaths and sickness compared to the fire fighters–the fire fighter thing can be easily fixed when they quit hiring educated idiots to lead men into stupid places to go. But the slurry dumping is a secret–going to be denied until the end–there is billions involved and when you have men like Trump–he could give a shit about lives unless it is someone that has billions. You see he has no humanity in him–acting like everyone is a criminal unless they are wealthy. The fire men themselves will change much–the old timers with much experience–you are an exception because you and i were there and your photos have screwed the system–they do not lie and prove what was wrong. Sad they would put men like Marsh in charge of a crew–shows how little education helps when it comes to using your head. During the Nam war, it was the old hardened and battle experienced sergeant that you could depend upon to keep you alive–not the college educated wanna be 90 day wonder lieutenant above him.
We sometimes put too much value on education on these types jobs where common sense and long experience are needed by the men responsible for their men’s lives. I can tell you I would prefer a boss that had long field experience over the educated wonder that is a wannabe wild land fire fighter trying to prove his balls and worth. The old timer already knows his worth and the value of the lives under him–that young educated boss trying to prove himself by risking lives is the horror of wild land fire fighting–you just have your crazy on elm street clothed in wild land fire fighting gear.
Gary is right–the field has much changed–when you have these extreme fires–no home or Boulder Ranch is worth trying to save at the expense of young lives. Just recently the 100 million dollar fire in Montana and Utah burned until the rain abated it—very little help from wild land fire fighters–yet they need to be there because there are many situations they do so much good–but to risk them needless is the worst of criminal acts and should be treated as such.
Because this has been done at Yarnell–the loved ones deserve a fair compensation if there can be one–but a minimum of what that man’s pay would be for the rest of the average life span of a person and a million dollars or so additional. Nothing can replace the loved one–but those children deserve the monies to raise them well and educate them freely.
If there can be any good from the hiring of Marsh it would be to show how dangerous it is to put the wrong person in charge of young wild land fire fighters lives. He became a killer but should have never been there in the first place. This was no accident already proven just by the act of defying all known safety rules–but even more common sense–something even a civilian could see without wild land fire fighting experience.
He also proved how cheaply these men are paid–especially under the existing system of hiring–you go in under who? Someone like Marsh and your life expectancy goes way down.
So we need to see those grunt wages doubled or even tippled
But my interest is in the civilian situation–the old wild land fire fighters will be listened to since they know much better than I about what needs to be done to clean up the system
The deaths from slurry, especially to the elderly and those already taxed in their immune systems is atrocious. Just look at Yarnell and how many deaths resulted from inundating the little town with retardant–twice–once in 2015 and previously in the World’s greatest fire fighting debacle of all time–2013 and the beginning of the .deaths of many by the killing of 19 young wildland fire fighters.
The total is well nigh 200 and rising–I have lost many friends–Jack Robinson not the least, but Zack Ashoor, Kathy Walker, Raul and Teresa–both down–and god some very young ones that worked much in the retardant areas–Kevin for one, like Kathy in their 40’s. Kevin was in and out moving iron and dust work constantly–healthy and pert–alive and happy–now dead. Sickening–and no explanation other than they were either living in Yarnell or they had a good exposure to the retardant residues.
It reads like a Chernobyl death list–yet who will listen? It is like the Chernobyl incident that the Russian Government tried all means to cover. But despite the billions of profits made by these slurry dumps, some of us are well informed of the poisons resulting from these dumps.
I know I have been affected–Never have I been so debilitated until after those slurry dumps. I was a resident there during and after both occurrences. Now I can barely walk 50 yards without having to stop and collect myself in order to convince myself to do another 50. This is my tribute to you that are doing ;the dumps–you heroes are not such heroes as you think. I know the dangers you do, but do you take time to know what you are doing to the people you inundated? Or are you working in ignorance as I was when I mined Uranium? If you are it is time to get educated because the companies that distribute this stuff have no compassion for the health of the people and environment they pollute no more than the Uranium Mining Companies cared for the Uranium Miner when profits were their priority. Karma is bad or good–See the end of the man that flew the Enola Gay. Yet there are evil men/women who exist without conscience.
Very good advice from Gary about the respirator–the chemical effects of the smoke and retardant are cumulative so will show up in time. Much like Uranium and hard rock mining–the cancers, lung and heart problems generally will not appear until after retirement when one should be enjoying life free of the illness caused by the pollutants. Wild land fire fighters do not realize the effects, but those I know are down with various illnesses. Most are convinced that they suffer these maladies from old age but truth is that smoke alone is harmful. Add the chemical pollutants from slurry and other chemical pollutants and you have the causes of the ailments –heart, cancer, lung problems, and other ailments due to the pollutants. Wild land fire fighters should have free and expert medical care much like the war time Veteran for all diseases.
My cancers and heart attacks did not appear immediately after Uranium mining–and it is well known that the incidence of cancer in Uranium miners is high above average. I think the same is in the wild land fire fighter and if he does escape alive he will like the miner later in life suffer these same diseases. I do know i had cancers before the pollutants of Slurry at Yarnell. I was one to breath that residue smoke–our faces were black from the dust and smoke on those early hikes and even our masks we attempted to use became extremely blackened. Those residues of smoke contain plenty of deadly chemicals from the slurry and include chemicals that we do not know. Combinations of chemicals can be extreme carcinogens. For example something about those hikes upset my system to set off killer heart attacks. But now the cancers I have are very active where before the fire I could have them removed usually rather easily–so the chemicals I believe have caused a rapid volatility.
I feel like we were guinea pigs at Yarnell since few small towns have had such close and extreme concentrations of slurry all about the town and even into it. I will continue to talk about this because it not only regards the many deaths and illnesses of civilians at Yarnell after the slurry concentrations, but it also has to be a concern to every wild land fire fighter.
When I was young and mining hard rock and Uranium I never had problems–All my family of Irish people were mostly farmers that had emigrated to Southern Illinois area north of Mount Vernon. My aunts nearly all lived into their 90’s –a good long life disease free. My siblings –two sisters and a brother are free of cancer and my sisters in their 89’s. They are living good health wise except my brother who by his drug associations is suffering from hep c and who knows what else. The thing is, our occupations have given us a bad rap for health, yet the truth of it is played down. Although the city fire fighter is recognized as suffering from inhaled contaminants, little is said about the wild land fire figher. It needs to be addressed–your occupation is an essential to the safety and protection of the environment, resources, homes and lives. You deserve more than you are getting–and I do see you as brothers in arms of a first order.
Truth is Gary that many did die from the exponential fire at Yarnell although it was after–one third of the population dead in 6 years? There were only 645 residents by census–2013 at the time of the fire–almost 200 now dead 6 years later after the two fires of Yarnell–2013, 2015. Give me an explanation–some can be attributed to as stress–divorces, deaths in family, loss of home, moving–these type stressors kill people. Some perhaps due to old age–but in the Yarnell incident cases of all ages are popping up. Certainly the older you are, the more compromised your health and the more subject to stressors and outside causes. But there are too many deaths post fire to account for just by chance.
Let me say I have had six heart attacks since the fire–two were definite killers except for excellent hospital and medical care to save me. Now this morning I have a call–three more cancers basal and squamous cell–tumors under the skin not apparent but nodules. In the past month I have had 6 large ones removed–two different visits to the surgeon and now I look worse than Scarface with lesions that are in an S shape on my face about 5 inches long. I have had cancers removed before the fire–Uranium mining I do blame since my siblings have none and even alive and older than me. Yet after the fire these cancers have gone rampant–never had they had to cut so much–and they move quickly on me. I believe it is the chemicals that we Yarnellites got inundated with by the huge slurry drops. We have no idea the secret ingredients that were included in the slurry, but we do know the chemicals-potassium ammonium phosphates and fine particles of clay of unknown constituents are health killers–especially the ammonium phosphate and the chemicals formed from reactions to burning embers. And those were more than burning embers–manzanita gives off the equivalent energy of a Heroshima A-Bomb every 15 minutes so that slurry once it is dropped in those mists is largely vaporized and the other is cooked into deadly chemicals–cyanide not the least of the reaction. Men working houses get plenty of the cyanide if they do not wear the masks–plastics are made using cyanide in the process and those deadly cyanide gases are highly toxic in home fires–well recognized there–but not mentioned in slurry drops of wild land fires.
O i am not looking for sympathy–I lived my life and am fortunate to still be able to participate. But I am one of those that have educated myself after the fact–I believed the Forest People until I started noticing the untimely deaths of so many after the Yarnell fire. So certainly–safety issues were skirted–ignorance I think the main cause and putting individuals in charge of so many when those individuals –educated idiots as they were–would stupidly kill their men–GMHS bur other crew members I at other locations suffered like problems.
So yes–the wild land fighter is the hero–he/she/others get the major doses of these chemicals inhaled–but they are unrecognized while their brothers in city fire fighting know and are recognized in getting the deadly chemical inhalants. So not only the civilian guinea pigs need to be addressed but also the wild land fire fighter effects. And if you believe your Forest Service representatives that this slurry is safe it is on you like it was on me for hiking so many times through it. But now you would not get me to Uranium mine nor would you get me to hike again through that chemical war zone. Education frees us from the Bull Shit.
I know how you feel, but since we have a division of labor here on this thread on life support, my job is to write about the 19 hotshots who died, it’s your job to write about the costs to the citizens of Yarnell and beyond because that’s out of both my lane and my wheelhouse, but I know it’s important.
Oh…and one more thing during my long goodbye. But make no mistake, I am saying goodbye unless something radically changes on this blog that by not returning to it to continue to participate, would be irresponsible on my part because that is just how important I view our work here in this format for wildland firefighter safety going forward.
I was watching a movie a few days ago that I had first seen about 20 years ago. This movie is about a military disaster that was so catastrophic, so profound and so damaging to our national psyche, that it literally changed our foreign policy overnight for at least a generation and caused us to abandon a region of the world which resulted in the endless loss of life due to civil war and the starvation of the local population.
In this horrific incident, I noted with new interest that exactly 19 Army Rangers died horrible deaths. And while any loss of life of our armed forces is tragic, that was a relatively small number of deaths considering it occurred in an active war zone to front line combatants.
That incident so scared our national collective memory, it will forever be remembered by only two words, “Blackhawk Down.”
I mention this because on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster, we lost exactly 19 Hotshots who died horrible deaths. But unlike the ‘Blackhawk Down” incident, which has been studied, analyzed and rerviewed endlessly so that every citizen of this country knows exactly why those 19 Army Rangers died, we are still clueless as to the truth why our 19 hotshots died.
Except instead of being a relatively small number of deaths under the circumstances, the deaths of 19 hotshots during a single incident was historically unprecedented. And as I keep reminding not only myself, but everyone else, this incident was so far off all of the known charts, graphs and spreadsheets that track hotshots deaths, it literally caused everyone to throw away their ‘Disaster Fire O’Meters” and construct new ones from the ground up. And the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster still pegged out the Red Lines on the new meters.
IT WAS NOT JUST ONE MORE INCIDENT WHERE SOMETIMES BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE!
So anyway…this still isn’t goodbye until I have satisfied myself I have summed up and memorialized my random thoughts on this matter over the last five years so you don’t have to wait for my tome to be published to be up to speed on my most important thoughts on this matter. So…I may be back to finish this post…if I think of some more points I want to make one last time before we say our final goodbyes.
1. Whoops, I missed a chance to post a link and that is so unlike me.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ygi2lDAdLo
2. Wow…another coincidence in addition to the same number of dead between the two incidents. If you watch the trailer (link above) you may notice that at the end of it, they are using the very same sound track that I selected for the crew.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QGEdc6HxhVA&start_radio=1&list=RDQGEdc6HxhVA
3. Joy,
And when I say you know where you lived when you started down this road, by that of course I mean running your own intel op while you gathered information, intelligence and Sources of Information. If you don’t know what to do with it, or you are afraid of what to do with it, don’t collect it in the first place and then don’t come on here bragging about having it while you play, “What have I got in my pockets” in the second place.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dprEW7Ec6bE
Because right now…you are a roadblock standing between me and accomplishing my objectives and I don’t like that any more than I like the other people who are withholding the truth from, “We…The People.”
4. HAL 9000,
I’m pretty sure Joy was referring to me and not you in her Troll Riddle. Which is you know…cool with me, because you wouldn’t believe some of the names I have been called during my career. Which always just meant I was doing my job to me. Actually…by now you probably wouldn’t be surprised by any of the names I have been called. 🙂
In other words, I can love the sinner, but not the sin. But this us far from over, and you have time to REPENT and do the right thing.
Joy,
Oh…and one more thing. In addition to your invaluable personal observations from the worst single day in wildland firefighting history, a day the previously believed to be unimaginable nightmare scenario became our reality that we now must accept may happen again,simply because it has happened once, you brought some clarity and understanding with your photographs and so I do want to thank you for that. And please remember. I still love you, I just don’t love what you are doing by withholding information that I need in order to establish to the best of my ability all of the circumstances and facts surrounding the catastrophic. shocking, traumatic, dumbfounding, and inexplicable deaths of one of our beloved hotshot crews.
Brainstorming during my Long Goodbye.
1. As I think I have a,ready made clear, this is my brainstorming session during my long goodbye during which I am trying to nail down those hot topics and favorite bones of mine to chew on during my official book writing sabbatical .
2. But it you have a particularly salienipoint you think I should add, please jump in here at ant time as Sonny has and add your favorite bone to chew on that you would like to see me cover in my book.
3. I am trying to keep this session to key bullet points without getting down into the weeds ti jeep it short and concise. But that being said, I was especially sloppy with my thumbnail account of the military disaster I am now comparing to the YHFD because the trauma that incident inflicted on our macro culture is the same as the YHFD inflicted on our micro culture. And si I do want to clean that up a little bit out if respect for those who were killed.
A. Not all of those who were killed were Army Rangers. The dead also included Army helicopter pilots and 1st Special Forces (Delta) team members, two of whom were posthumously awarded Congressional Medals of Honor. It was an incident that, ‘scarred” our national collective memory, not “scared” it. And finally, it was an incident that was so traumatic to our entire nation it will always be remembered by three words, not two because I spelled Black Hawk wrong. “Black Hawk Down”
Well…shit fire and save matches, that post wasn’t much better and might in fact have been worse in terms of bad spelling on my part and computer value added misspelling on Apples part. I need to go find my glasses.
And in the continuing “you just can’t make this shit up” category…
The person who wrote the SCREENPLAY for the ‘Blackhawk Down” movie also ended up one of the screenwriters for the ‘Granite Mountain’ movie.
Ken Nolan.
The official IMDB page for “Only The Brave” – 2017
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/
———————————————————————————–
“Only The Brave” – The Story of the Granite Mountain Hotshots
Directed by: Joseph Kosinski
Writing Credits (WGA)…
Sean Flynn – Based on his original GQ magazine article “No Exit”
Eric Warren Singer – American Hustle ( MOVIE / 2013 / Screenplay )
Ken Nolan – Black Hawk Down ( MOVIE / 2001 / Screenplay )
———————————————————————————
OFFICIAL DISCLAIMER
“His might be bigger, but mine is here.”
I have stated from the beginning…like five years ago, that my wildland firefighting experiences are very narrow on the fire line (limited to hotshot crew only) in addition to my 4 years of office time. Furthermore, my experience is very outdated occurring between 1974 and 1988 There are lots and lots and lots of people with a lot more experience that either current or recently separated wildland firefighters who I will defer to if they want to jump in and correct me on anything, or expand on a point I am trying to make. But the fact is, very few have done so, but I continue to be ready not to only welcome the help, but to ask for it, “Pease help me explain WF culture and fire fighting tactics and strategies, especially the nuance that are so critical to understand to really be able to, “ get it”.
**
** THE MATT OSS TIME-LAPSE VIDEO
**
** WHEN ( AND WHERE ) FIRE FIRST CRESTS THE RIDGELINE
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE ) post
on January 21, 2019 at 4:31 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> WTKTT subsequently also said::
>>
>> “Keep in mind, though, that Matt Oss’s Yarnell Fire video was a TIME-LAPSE.
>>
>> It didn’t happen AS quickly as the video shows.”
>>
>> Although Oss’es time-lapse youtube video is sped-up some, one can go to the
>> settings icon on the youtube task-bar and slow the speed down a good bit.
>> One can slow it even more and get a fairly reasonable example of ‘real time’
>> by then continuously clicking the play/stop button.
>>
>> This has lead me to another thought, likely specific to the abilities of WTKTT.
>>
>> In the slow-down mode mentioned above, the point where the fire first crests
>> the ridge-line is visible.
Yes, it is… and that ‘video frame’ became ‘Figure 19’ in the final SAIR document.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> If that exact point could be identified…
It has. See the new VIDEO below.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> …perhaps we would have the ability to determine if the fire came up to
>> the initial descent point behind them, BEFORE it roared into the
>> deployment bowl.
I think it’s safe to say it did NOT. The proof is in the new VIDEO below.
According to the Matt Oss video, no actual flames crested any ridgeline there in any place or timeframe that would have allowed GM to actually ‘see’ them from all the way down in the box canyon… right up until the time of their actual deployment.
According to the Oss video… the FIRST flames seen cresting the ridgeline, halfway back towards the place from where they departed on their final journey, didn’t ‘appear’ until 4:43 PM.
According to the SAIR… at 4:43 PM… the GM Hotshots were already dead.
Actually ( again, according to the SAIR ) they had already been dead for about a minute.
From PDF page 7 of the SAIR, in the ‘Executive Summary’ section…
——————————————————————————————————-
At 1630, thunderstorm outflows reached the southern perimeter of the fire. Winds increased substantially; the fire turned south and overran the Granite Mountain IHC at about 1642.
——————————————————————————————————–
SIDENOTE: Ever since that original ‘estimate’ in the SAIR… 4:42 PM has become the accepted ‘time of death’ for the GM Hotshots. That’s the time when people have ( and will probably always ) ‘rung bells’ and/or taken ‘moments of silence’ at the various anniversary events.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> If the fire did indeed make that run, it would certainly explain why
>> none of the firefighters chose to run, and had to make-do with what
>> they had left.
Based on the new VIDEO below… I believe it’s safe to say the fire did NOT ‘make that run’.
You also have to realize that the TIME when GM would have been ‘weighing their final options’ and DECIDING to deploy versus any other option is still unknown.
There is ( and always has been ) that ‘laundry list’ of ‘events/tasks’ that would have had to take place even BEFORE 4:39 PM, when we hear the first of that series of botched MAYDAY calls on the radio, complete with the saws running in the background providing the proof that, circa 4:39 PM, they were ALREADY preparing their ‘deployment site’.
At a minimum… that list of events/tasks includes…
1. The moment they actually DID realize they were in deep shit.
2. Deciding what to do.
3. Finally deciding to deploy versus any other option.
4. Finding a deployment site.
5. Getting everyone ‘assembled’ in that ‘found’ place.
6. Assigning all the tasks to improve the deployment site.
7. Pulling ropes on saws, extracting fuel canisters/fusees from packs, etc.
8. Only THEN getting on the radio ( at 4:39 PM ) to try and contact Air-To-Ground.
So however much TIME it might have taken to do all those things above, you have to SUBTRACT that time from any consideration of when any FLAMES might have been visible BEHIND them… which the SAIR said was part of their ‘decision making’ all the way back at steps ‘2’ and ‘3’ in the list above.
Even with a VERY quick estimate of only 2 minutes ( 120 seconds ) to accomplish ALL of the ‘tasks’ in the list above… that means the first moment when they ‘might’ have ( as the SAIR says they did ) seen flames BEHIND them, and have that become ANY part of their decision making, had to have been no later than circa 4:37 PM.
Even with that VERY quick time estimate… that’s still a full 6 minutes before any such possible thing is seen happening in the Matt Oss video.
As the new video shows… at 4:37 PM… not only are we still 6 minutes away from ANY flames even appearing ANYWHERE up on that ridgeline… there aren’t even any ‘orange glows’ reflecting off ANY of the smoke clouds that would give any indication there was ANY fire already in that saddle area up ‘behind’ them, at 4:37 PM.
If you believe it took them even longer than 2 minutes to accomplish all those ‘tasks’ listed above… then that just pushes us further and further back in time to their ‘moment of decision’… and makes it increasingly LESS likely they actually ever SAW any fire ‘up behind them’, as the SAIR asserts.
** THE NEW VIDEO
NOTE: This one has a lot of ‘through the looking glass’ fades AND ‘flyarounds’, including a drop down to ground level at the deployment site itself and then a look ‘back up’ at the saddle to give an idea what they could have even possibly had a chance at seeing ‘back up there’.
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire – 2013 – SAIR Figure 19
YouTube Video Description: A workup of ‘Figure 19’ from the original SAIR document.
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/Jl1l8EyDric
**
** THE SHRINE ROAD YOUTH CAMP / HARPER CANYON ‘SAW LINE’ PROJECT
NOTE: I thought I had responded to this two-part question from Norb regarding the Shrine Road Youth Camp / Harper Canyon ‘saw line’ project down below, but it turns out it never showed up.
So I am posting it again up here, hoping it appears this time.
** Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 11, 2019 at 12:50 pm
>> Norb Szczurek said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Nice work on the video! I have been on site three times and
>> this still helps me get oriented.
>>
>> Couple of questions for you –
>>
>> do you know where Darby Star and crew were putting in saw line?
Well… we know ‘for sure’ where they were ‘supposed’ to.
Where they were ACTUALLY cutting/swamping is still not known with absolute certainty.
That ‘saw line’ was ‘supposed’ to be directly over from where the dozer stopped pushing ground in the west end of the Shrine Road Youth Camp area, north, over to the closest possible ‘tie in’ with that ‘Rock Pile’ ridge ( as both SPGS1 Gary Cordes and TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel called it ) which made up the north side of that area.
During his ADOSH interview, SPGS1 Gary Cordes was asked about this whole ‘Sesame area to Shrine Youth Camp area’ dozer-line project… and here is what he said.
From Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview…
——————————————————————————————————–
1089 just north of the, the ranch on Sesame Street, there’s a, there’s a road that goes
1090 um, northeast and towards shrine, so we improved that road to now become
1091 the primary um, line and, and then planned on burning that out that evening
1092 once we got it all tied into the rock pile, which is the, that, what, what I refer
1093 to as ah shit ridge, um, we were tying it in to that rock pile. It’s a pretty heavy
1094 rock ridge in there.
1098 Q2: Okay. Did you – how much progress did you make on, on that, or did you?
1108 A: …that was an only masticated area in there, I guess it was cleaned up about
1109 three years ago so we had, we did good on that, uh, we tied it into um, into
1110 Shrine, back in there, uh, cut it across between, I’m guessing it’s between
1111 those, what looks like those two roads in there and we actually were able to
1112 um, it was a couple hundred feet that they had to go in and, and I had three
1113 engines doing saw work in there to tie it into the rock pile up in there. And
1114 that was actively just about done when this fire had uh, blown up and changed
1115 direction on us. And then Blue Ridge had picked up, my guys were tying into
1116 the, into the rock pile, um, and Blue Ridge was improving that dozer line back
1117 on that, on that road going back to Sesame Street from Shrine.
——————————————————————————————————–
There is more proof regarding the ( intended ) location of the ‘saw line’.
During Cordes’ ADOSH interview… they all had a ‘map’ in front of them, and at some point Cordes drew an ‘arrow’ on the map showing exactly where the ‘saw line’ was supposed to ‘tie’ the end of the dozer push into the Youth Camp area straight over into the ‘Rock Pile’ on the north side of the area.
Gary Cordes’ MAP ( that he drew on during his ADOSH interview ) is here…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAAS6KScxLx9RPUBzGLR9wFwa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Central%20Yavapai%20Fire%20District/Transcripts?dl=0&preview=Gary+Cordes+map.pdf&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
The ‘arrow’ indicating where the ‘saw line’ was supposed to be is hand-drawn in black ink there across the Shrine Youth Camp area, with the ‘point’ of the arrow indicating that spot where the Sesame-to-Shrine dozer-line intersected with Shrine Road itself.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> We know what time resources were pulled out of that area, but
>> is there any record of when they arrived in the area? I really
>> don’t recall seeing anything, but hopefully you have something.
** THE SHORT ANSWER
2:45 PM
SPGS1 Gary Cordes first informed his TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel that he wanted that ‘saw line’ cut over in the Shrine Road Youth Camp area.
2:45 to 3:00 PM
TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel ‘assigns’ some of his Task Force 2 resources to head to the Shrine Road Youth Camp for this ‘saw line’ project.
3:00 PM
TLFD(t) Esquibel briefs those resources about the project over at the Youth Camp.
3:15 PM
The ‘saw line’ work begins over in the Youth Camp / Harper Canyon area.
** THE LONG ANSWER
There is a fair amount of evidence in the public record which establishes that Gary Cordes didn’t even come up with this ‘Sesame to Shrine Youth Camp area’ dozer-line project until about 2:01 PM that day.
That’s when he met face-to-face with Brian Frisby and told him he wanted him to get HEQB Cory Ball and the dozer to start pushing that dozer-line from the Sesame area over to the Youth Camp.
But it wasn’t until about 45 minutes later ( at 2:45 PM ) that Cordes then first informed his TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel that he was also going to need a ‘saw line’ put in over at the Youth camp to ‘tie’ that end of the dozer-line into the ‘Rock Pile’ on the north side of the Youth Camp.
From TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s official ‘Unit Log’…
——————————————————————————————————–
1445 ( 2:45 PM )
Met w/ St Group 2, plan to use TF2 resources to tie dozer line to rock outcrop on Mtn.W of Shrine Rd in Harper Canyon, Blue Ridge IHC + Granite Mtn. IHC to improve dozer line.proposed burnout possible in night or evening.MCSO starts evac of Yarnell
———————————————————————————————————
During the next 15 minutes is when Esquibel ‘assigned’ some of his ‘Task Force 2’ resources to this new ‘saw line’ project, and told them to head over to the Shrine Road Youth Camp area for a ‘briefing’.
Esquibel’s next Unit Log entry ( at 3:00 PM ) says that is when the ‘plan briefing’ with these newly assigned crews actually took place, presumably there at the Shrine Road Youth Camp where the ‘project’ was supposed to take place…
—————————————————————————————————–
1500 ( 3:00 PM )
Brief resources on plan
—————————————————————————————————–
15 minutes after that is when Esquibel says he then first set the ‘trigger points’ for those crews now ( actively ) working on that ‘saw line’ project…
—————————————————————————————————–
1515 ( 3:15 PM )
Set trigger pt in Harper Canyon for crews to pull out, saddle W of work area about 1/2 mile.
—————————————————————————————————–
These ‘times’ all match what Esquibel told the ADOSH investigators.
From Tyson Esquibel’s ADOSH interview…
He is being asked directly ( by ADOSH investigator Bruce Hannah ) if he remembers WHEN his resources started working on that actual ‘saw line’ operation in the Youth Camp area…
Q = Bruce Hannah, ADOSH investigator
A = TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel
——————————————————————————————————–
1221 Q: Do you know what time you guys started doing that particular operation?
1222
1223 A: Um, probably about 3 to 3:30.
1502 Q: Uh, brief resources on plan 1500. Okay, set trigger point, Harper Canyon. Is
1503 that…
1504
1505 A: So that’s when we walked into this area.
1506
1507 Q: That’s this ridge right in there?
1508
1509 A: Yeah, this is the canyon we were in.
1510
1511 Q: It’s called Harper Canyon?
1512
1513 A: Yeah, I believe so.
——————————————————————————————————–
So it appears that the ‘saw line’ project really didn’t even get cranked up and fully ‘underway’ until as late as 3:15 to 3:30 PM that day.
That ‘saw line’ project was NEVER FINISHED that day.
It would only be less than an hour later that everyone who had been working on it would be hauling ass OUT of the area, running for their lives, and barely escaping entrapment.
ADOSH issued a specific willful/serious ‘near entrapment’ fine for this ‘project’,, in addition to the other 3 ‘near/actual’ entrapments that almost ( or actually did ) take place that day.
Alright, due to the generosity of Norbert & TTWARE in response to my “tired of chasing the dangling carrot” post, with replies of “Yep” and “I concur” respectively, I’ll throw in a few more thoughts and observations.
In my mind the major point of hashing out the unpublished real, complete, and truthful facts and circumstances surrounding the events of June 30, 2013 at the Yarnell Hill fire in this forum, is to shine the light on the truth no matter how uncomfortable it may be – in order to more fully advocate for positive change in wildland firefighting and actual learning in that subculture. That’s why I spend the time I do here. My motivations are to solve a mystery purposefully hidden from public view. And you know what, THAT PISSES ME OFF! It endangers the public (who pay our salaries,) it endangers my fellow firefighters and those who rely on them, and it endangers me and my ability to do the job the public has entrusted me to do.
We all bring to the table our perspectives, experiences, and information we’ve been able to pull out of the limited and censored information available to us in order to solve the puzzle, piece by piece. The final objective, of course, being a full accounting of events: actions and inaction, that led to the unthinkable.
My frustration of playing the multi-year game of “am I getting warmer or colder”, has reached a culmination point of seriously questioning why I spend time and energy here, and by extension asking myself if it’s time to walk away. And yes, it’s a GAME. This absolutely plays squarely into the hands of those in power who endeavor to bury the truth forever. They win. We lose…again.
Thus my personal conundrum. Walk away? Stay and keep hoping? Why Should I? Why haven’t firefighters come out of the woodwork screaming about the injustice here? Have we become that cell phone addicted and full of self-worship where we just don’t care….as long as it doesn’t effect me or my guys? And please…I’m NOT looking for anyone to try to convince me to stay. I don’t do cliques and I have one reason I’m here only. It’s my decision based on time spent vs. results gained.
To summarize my rambling and to thank Norbert and TTWARE for their respective thumbs up, I’ll end with this.: am I the only one that’s grown wearing of waiting for the secrets of Yarnell to become available by those who keep me chasing the carrot? Isn’t it logical that anyone who is failing to divulge pertinent information about Yarnell in any way is part of the problem in their own way? What’s the difference? I personally see none. None.
Amen Brother!
It is too bad you all are facing you are chasing some carrot because you are all grown ups who can easily go take the data I shared on here and off here and pull your own records.
I chose NOT congressional as Sonny is misinterpreting and sharing here but Washington DC as my platform
not a book or movie or blogs to tell the additional information
I also ran my data through legal advice not on the emotions of people on blogs.
Name one of you on here or in the world who spent the time on the ground with the locals — the loved ones — and from the grunts to the very elite people in your industry—- name one… I am it.
Sonny made errors but with his health I just let it run
I am way to busy to sit down and assess and dissect the uproars and emotions.
The funny part is it is easy to sit back East and make judgement
I will not judge any of you or correct or engage
I will not even share who you are even though I do know who you are
I will continue to share as I am
I am firm there.
Isn’t it odd that a person I clashed with for years on IM is the only person who is making solid in person time to go over the data and further my education with allowing me to attend the conferences and such.
and have any of you sat through thousands of files and 911 calls or YCSO recordings…he has but he is labelled some silly pet something to me…dumb.
God will return to him all the kindness he has done. He had to learn his own lessons while we went through those times. It is all a growing moment.
As for Sonny, I will not write a single correction because both Sonny and I live our lives in a live and let live way – the time on Earth is short.
Yes, I do know more
No, I will not share it ever on IM
I am firm there.
Many of you caught the hints and know where to go and get the data.
The brotherhood this week is your deal
It will not enhance or change me to feel oh my even Norb and Woodsman
Shit, if I see them this year – great – but if this is some kind of moat to cause division- that is on you
You are an extension and family-like in my eyes and I have no problem of the venting out this week or ever
I am at the stance we all have our times of frustrations and pains but no way am I to think I am the sole person when too many know stuff but it was funny that the world is unaware how close Woodsman worked with the YHF folks and has he tried to gain data to the best of his ability and capabilities…has he went to the depth of digging as I have…so to me you all are in some current rant and raves but it is on you and it does not affect me one bit but if you stayed out here weeks on weeks or months on months and now I can say a full year like RTS did than he chose to use the data in other ways to reach who he wants to reach and again that is on him.
I am about to bury another family member who is at the end in hospice and more locals dying or about to (hard to see kids dying)…so really all this emotions even from the AI area is just that – still IM is a place to freely express and have at it….I take the higher path and assure all that know I know who you are writing these rants I am not gonna expose you because my emotions are balanced nowadays and my only focus is getting credentialed up to keep showing and sharing…
Get over it me not sharing here
or start asking for the index of all entities to see who asked for what
but wtktt KNOWS as I showed you – some of mine are oddly sealed for the world to see – hmmm?
the right folks who can ensure change have the data
That I can state is a definite.
I am unmasked —
I do not concern myself if you are or not but I am.
I am JOY A COLLURA here and all over
Reply to joy a collura post on February 2, 2019 at 3:04 pm
>> joy a collura said…
>>
>> Get over it me not sharing here
I believe it’s the ‘partial sharing’ that is just pissing people off.
The ‘teasing’… if you will.
Example: Just a few days ago, on the thread that was discussing the reported ‘final radio conversations’ between Marsh and Steed..
The report there has always been that SOME people HEARD the two of them say something to each other along the lines of…
Steed: “We’re not going to make it” and/or “You’ve really f****ed us this time”.
Marsh:: “I know. I’m sorry”.
And then you jumped in to CONFIRM that you have heard this exact thing from no less than 13 different people. You were emphatic about it…
>> On January 22, 2019 at 10:11 pm, Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> YES. I, Joy A Collura, am saying that, since August
>> of 2013, I have heard from 13 ( THIRTEEN ) different
>> ‘men in the FIRE and MEDICAL industry’ who ALL
>> heard the same ‘final radio conversation(s)’ between
>> Marsh and Steed, on June 30, 2013.
That’s a big deal.
Not just one person. Not just two… but more people than either the New England Patriots or the Los Angeles Rams will be allowed to have on the field tomorrow at any given moment.
But then you won’t say anything more about it… such as what the circumstances might have even been that so many people heard the same thing.
Were they all standing near Darrell Willis truck and hearing everything that was said coming over the GM Crew Net blasting from Willis’ radio?
Is that when this possible ‘mysterious video’ might have been recorded which supposedly CONTAINS a lot of that GM Crew Net radio traffic?
Inquiring minds still want to know.
But you ‘draw the line’ on what you will share.
We DO “get it”… but ( at the same time ) that is the kind of thing that is bound to just “piss people off”.
I’m sure you can understand that.
It remains VERY important to have things like this fully vetted and published, in order to get closer to having the ‘full story’ about what happened that day.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> or start asking for the index of all entities to see who asked
>> for what but wtktt KNOWS as I showed you – some of mine
>> are oddly sealed for the world to see – hmmm?
As usual… ( and please don’t be offended by this ) I am having a hard time ‘parsing’ your sentences/paragraphs, and I’m not really sure what that means.
If you are suggesting I ‘know things’ that would be very important to this ongoing investigation that I am not sharing… that is not true.
I ( me, personally ) am not ‘sitting on’ any ‘secrets’.
That’s not how I roll.. nor do I think that’s how we get the cows in the barn on this.
wtktt said:
As usual… ( and please don’t be offended by this ) I am having a hard time ‘parsing’ your sentences/paragraphs, and I’m not really sure what that means.
Joy’s Definition:
I have shown you behind the scenes that certain entities have sealed my public records request. I was not referring to you.
As for tease…I was not teasing with intent just stating facts…people have come across my path or Sonny and my path and that has happened to people here too not just me.
November 18, 2014 at 8:21am wtktt stated C’mon people…FOCUS. Please read what Mr. Dougherty wrote at top…please remain from personal attacks. The trolls will come…and the trolls will go.
I have not been a troll by definition below. Just because I state I heard something or where to go get your own data does not make me a tease or up for this kind of rubbish. Please stop emailing me that people are writing about me. I am pausing from this silliness on IM. Why don’t you stop wasting time on this and come help…I have said it for years…not as easy as one thinks…
Trolling
Trolling – (verb), as it relates to internet, is the deliberate act, (by a Troll – noun or adjective), of making random unsolicited and/or controversial comments on various internet forums with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument
Trolling on-line forums as described above is actually analogous to the fishing technique of “trolling”, where colorful baits and lures are pulled behind a slow moving boat, often with multiple fishing lines, covering a large bodies of water, such as a large lake or the ocean. The trolling lures attract unsuspecting fish, intriguing them with the way they move through the water, thus enticing these foolish fish to “take the bait”. Not unlike unsuspecting internet victims, once hooked, the fish are reeled in for the catch before they realize they have been duped by the Troll/Fisherman
clarify-
wtktt is not the one emailing about stuff here
another person
but I am okay with not coming here so that should make you all happy.
Stress relief granted.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on February 2, 2019 at 6:32 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I have shown you behind the scenes that certain
>> entities have sealed my public records request.
>> I was not referring to you.
Yes… you sent me some screen shots where you seemed to be having trouble ‘logging in’ to the FOIA tracking system… and some of your request were not ‘showing up’… but the sidebar in the same screen shot seemed to indicate that was just a ‘Login’ problem that had resolved.
I don’t know what you mean by a ‘sealed FOIA request’.
There really is no such thing.
Either an FOIA request is DENIED, up front, or it is ‘in process’.
The ‘results’ of an FOIA request cannot be ‘sealed’.
That’s exactly the opposite of the intent of the FOIA law itself.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>> I have not been a troll by definition below.
And I don’t believe anyone has accused you of that.
You take up a lot of bandwidth without really ‘getting to the point’ sometimes… but that alone doesn’t make you a ‘troll’.
Classic ‘trolls’ usually have actual mal-intent… and are either just trying to monopolize an online conversation… or just generally ’cause trouble’.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> Just because I state I heard something or where to go
>> get your own data does not make me a tease or up for
>> this kind of rubbish.
Well… under certain circumstances… and especially in THIS kind of PUBLIC forum where the search for REAL ( verifiable ) information is very important to ALL participants… that kind of thing CAN amount to ‘teasing’.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> Please stop emailing me that people are writing about me.
I believe you have me confused with someone else.
I have never done any such thing.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> I am pausing from this silliness on IM.
>> Why don’t you stop wasting time on this and come help…
>> I have said it for years…not as easy as one thinks…
No, it’s not… especially with the kind of total SHOTGUN BLAST FOIA requests I believe you have been making.
You actually DO get back a TON OF SHIT.
Most of it is going to be just ‘noise’ and not even relevant.
But there is nothing EASY about going through that kind of stuff.
I HAVE been ‘helping’ you all along… just about any time you asked.
And I will continue to do so.
But I have no intentions of ever setting foot in Arizona. Sorry.
You DO still have the option of finding a place to post everything online and then just let ALL of us ‘help you with it’.
Not to enter the controversy about what Joy does or does not do–those prerogatives are hers and I will respect that. It has been five years and rightfully we are continuing the search for answers–although the largest part of SAIR errors have been shown–a few remain. Perhaps what Joy has is critical to exposing the cover up. I am one who is willing to await until what she has is revealed to the people she believes they are best first informed. I can only applaud her for the years of tireless and selfless effort she has put into research and I certainly will not question her purpose for withholding information until that time. A few months is nothing compared to the time already spent here on investigative media and the amount of data and information she has already freely offered. How many would make over 900 hikes to the area so people of all walks of life could see the situation–at the same time she was gathering interview information and sharing with those people about the incident? How many would spend countless hours and years battling to get FOIA’s so she could see what was going on? Patience is a virtue in this matter and none should be offended by a small time factor to get the information she has. Some will be squirming and that is a good thing–but their squirming may be for another reason because there may be some unwanted exposure. So let Joy see the people that can make a difference and present her case–I can wait, I have patience, and I know she has good reason.
I do apologize for making extraneous remarks–some highly unrelated to the wild land fire industry. I am prone to do that and it is; not to waste your valuable time–and I know how valuable that is from the recent shot gun blast. I do think that the shot not only spread about my chest but also went up to my cranial area affecting my mental faculties –so if I seem a bit slow to you and extraneous–when you see Charlie or Sonny or Tex, just skip the post and get to your professional area and friends–the Goddess of the Irish will forgive you, perhaps even applaud you.
Many awards were handed out after the Yarnell killing–many deserved and some not. The fire fighting profession carries many dangers and anyone out there producing line with an animal alike the Yarnell wild fire in the area and ready to devour anything in its path deserves the highest honor. That person is hoping to save lives, resources, property, wildlife and environment. So my hat is off to all doing that job and even that Marsh and Steed did the unthinkable of needlessly killing their crew–they will stand before their Maker and he will be the final judge–if it is Jesus then they are in good hands–they escaped the mortal gods and ascended to the immortal God–and Jesus wipes out the sins–gives a new start–all a good thing for all of us.
But what we do not often address is the fact that almost 200 are now dead after the Yarnell fire right there after all the Retardant Dumps in both the 2013 debacle and again during the Tenderfoot fire of 2015. The majority of the deceased are elderly, although there are several cases of middle age and now Joy tells me there is even an eight year old that is suffering lung problems that may lead to death. I do not know if there will be a memorial for being a guinea pig to the retardant dumps but we certainly deserve one if we were a resident of Yarnell during hose slurry drops. I certainly was and experienced my first heart attack a few short months after those fires–Joy can tell you the exact date since she pulled my life support apparatus.
The sad thing is that the loss of Yarnellites constitutes almost a third of the population in these few short years–five since the Yarnell fire and three since the Tenderfoot fire. I had contacted the EPA about this and at least did get a response letter–good fire starter material since excuses of why they were not interested are of no help. Yet the facts are there and had the Javalina population been reduced in that proportion you can bet they would have been on the site ASAP.
There is a good fictitious report on line put out by the Forest Service. They determine with all the gobble de gook that the retardant is unlikely to be harmful to humans. They do recommend not to eat out of a garden that got the orange goop on it–nor any wild plants or berries if they did get a dose of it.
There are many formulas for Phos Chek Just about all of it contains trade secret chemicals but the major offender is right on top and not secret. They say it is in the proportion of 85% but that can vary to 95%. It is Ammonium Phosphate, Di-ammonium Phosphate, Mon-ammonium Phosphate and smaller amounts of Attapulgus Clay, Guar Gum with the remaining content of secret chemicals.
Is this slurry really safe for humans? If the Yarnell Elderly that are deceased could speak,they would say no–Your slurry drops have caused our early deaths. We know that this stuff immediately kills fish–but with humans and animals it takes effect more slowly. The ammonium gas created after a drop is a lung killer–but even worse in the HCN contamination. HCN is a deadly gas –Hydrogen Cyanide and was used to kill those in penitentiaries on death row. A very small amount of this gas–even 6 ppm is harmful to health.
So now I am going to educate you on how to make your own rat poison. Do not kill yourself doing this–the HCN gas given off is deadly. Just get yourself a gallon or so of that slurry and allow it to dry. Sprinkle the crumbles over some burning embers on a camp fire. Make sure you have a breeze so you are outside and no way you will breathe the smoke–best to have a gas mask when doing this. The resulting gas is actually Zyclon B –that was Hitler’s gas used to kill in WW2–so very dangerous even in small amounts. Now the residue you have on the embers will contain the Cyanide you need to kill your rats if you have not killed yourself doing this. The old miners have this method down pat–so if your look in some old mining books say early 1900’s you will get how they did it and how some stayed alive doing it and maybe how some did not. Now–do you think the Forest Service is understanding of the danger of their slurry drops. I am more inclined to believe that like the cigarette companies and since there are billions involves and profits passed around and doctors easily found for perks and cash to support the claims of safe good slurry, that indeed proven chemical reactions prove otherwise.
There is acute poisoning by cyanide and it takes only 1/60th teaspoon of cyanide to kill a 160 pound individual. You die in 15-45 minutes with convulsions, respiratory failure, and cardiac arrest. But there is chronic poisoning as we had seen in Yarnell. You see doses of HCN and Cyanide in solid form–NaCN, KCN, and CNCl tax the cells in the heart and brain because the smaller doses retain oxygen in the blood stream keeping sufficient oxygen from the heart and brain cells. So you will see symptoms like dizziness, headache, nausea, vomiting, rapid breathing, rapid or slowed heart beat, restlessness, weakness and even change in taste.
When as little as .4 gram is death to a 160 pound person, then imagine how little it would take to cause disastrous effects to health. The Retardant Companies and their Billion Dollar golden egg will be hard to challenge–too many politicians easily bought and you can be certain the key players to allow this environmental pollution are owned by these companies.
Maybe the only safe thing in the concoction is the guar gum since it comes from guar beans and is used to thicken the solution. The clay is named after a city in Georgia–we do not know the sources of the clay. Much clay contains asbestos and titymites and other silicates. Those working around clay have to worry about the silicosis disease. The asbestos of course can result in mesothelioma–and if you have that and can connect to a source–you will able to fund your last miserable years living in that disease.
Cyanide actually dissolves gold–one of the few things that will–the other being aqua regia. Tailings dumps full of the cyanide have leached into aquifers–and John Daugherty is to be appreciated for his humanity in protesting the mining operations. It is about money–why those such as JD have such a hard time protesting. He was lucky not to be shot in the Chilean effort. The Mexican saying is that life is no more than a hand full of dirt. And in those Latin countries your life is valued very cheaply–Three hundred was the going rate for one Peuko–and he had been known as a hired killer with nine notches on his pistol until he took some 30 bullets from a couple of relatives of one he should have missed.
But as Peuko killed secretly so what are these secret ingredients in the Slurry Drops? You mean in good old America we can dump a chemical on people and the environment without public advisement as to what they are? Isn’t the political system grand? Well I do think we need a memorial at least for those killed post Slurry Drops on Yarnell–Guinea Pigs of Yarnell–put my name at the top if you like.
I concur again Woodsman.
Around the five year mark, I posted that due to the fact that no new information had been shared for eons on this site, it’s usefulness was done, forked, if you will.
Here we are months after that, and the only thing that’s been revealed since that time, is that people are gathering more information which they will not share. We’ve spent LOTS of time sorting through all sorts of posts by various people containing information about everything EXCEPT the subject at hand. Those posts may be entertaining to some, depending upon the reader (and I must admit, I do enjoy some of Gary’s stuff), but if we’re not going to crack this case, I’ve got better things to do.
In WTKTT’s recent post, he laid out the specifics regarding FOIA’s and their shareablity, so that is really not an excuse anymore.
Joy said above: “Name one of you on here or in the world who spent the time on the ground with the locals — the loved ones — and from the grunts to the very elite people in your industry—- name one… I am it.”
ACTUALLY, some of the worst offenders in the lies and cover-up fit everything you just described, except the “on here” part.
Joy also said:
“the right folks who can ensure change have the data
That I can state is a definite”.
To that I sadly have to report that the “fight folks who can ensure change” are the one’s instigating the cover-up in the first place. Any other “right folks” out there, are giving you a false sense of positivity.
Bottom line: There is a lot of information that can be revealed by several of the people that are withholding it without compromising names or jobs.
Joy kind of seals the deal for me in her missive above, when she says:
“Yes, I do know more”
“No, I will not share it ever on IM”
“I am firm there.”
For me EVER means EVER, and we know RTS has the same mindset, so I’m out. If anything REALLY breaks regarding the YHF, I’ll be able to catch it on the evening news, or in the next tell-all book that may, or may not, tell-anything.
In WTKTT’s recent post, he laid out the specifics regarding FOIA’s and their shareablity, so that is really not an excuse anymore.
—again NONE of YOU live here
I was out walking and I am just thinking you all are a bunch of keyboard commandos just willing to talk trash at your computers but you have not come and helped me – I am one person with too much data…some visit me for hikes but not sit down go through all the recordings and all the other data which is really boring…really…
You all have not shared what you know and I could expose some of that but I don’t-
and then go get the help because I do not know how to help ya
IM is not the place to share all data – the is no rules that I have to put my data on IM.
Did the movie people or the book people?
I am good with how I am doing it.
I am happy with my choices as you are happy to publicly and privately diss me.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on February 2, 2019 at 6:09 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> there is no rules that I have to put my data on IM.
Of course not.
If you went to the trouble ( and expense ) to obtain it… then it is, in fact, YOURS to do with as you please.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> I am good with how I am doing it.
Then that is all that really matters.
But remember that THIS is a PUBLIC forum.
If you post messages that keep ‘hinting’ at things you seem to know… then other people are going to keep asking you to share more information and/or simply clarify what you are ‘claiming’.
That’s just how that works.
Sonny,
I think you were asking me what my issues are with Joy and why I am being so harsh with her and RTS down below. So anyway…I have thought about it and I have decided you are entitled to a more complete and measured explanation than the one I gave you downstream. And it’s not just that I can never win an argument with Joy…because I am used to that with women I know and have known throughout my life.
And although there really aren’t any rules that have been imposed by JD on our little community of seekers for the truth and bloggers, much less standards that I can or should try to impose, I have always thought of us as kind of like “The Three Musketeers”; except there are more of us and we are bloggers and not you know…musketeers. You know…all for one, and one for all. or however that goes?
And by that I mean that all of us leave it all on the field every time we suit up…or something like that? And in this blogging community and crowd sourced investigation, if there are participants who take…but don’t give back, it will be like working with IRS CID, and nobody likes to do that because they take information, but they never give anything back except they have a good excuse, federal law prohibits them from sharing, but it is still aggravating.
And in the case of this blog, there is actually a danger the system will break down into selfish camps or individuals who are out for themselves instead of the truth and the greater good and everyone will take their marbles and go home and do what both Joy and RTS do.
And who knows, if they those same sources weren’t sharing with Joy and RTS, maybe they would share with me instead? Because there is one thing I know about people. they hate to keep information inside of themselves, especially when they have done something wrong (assuming they aren’t anti social sociopaths) or know of others who have. Normal people want to confess what they know because that information inside themselves eats at their insides of most people who were raised with any kind of sense of right and wrong.
In both RTS’ and now in Joy’s cases, they are like Hoover Vacuum Cleaners sucking up all the information and intelligence they can here, while running games on the side to gather additional information by using their participation here in part and the notoriety and attention this controversial blog brings to everyone who participates here.
And I think that is wrong and I have said so for the very beginning. In fact…I made it very clear to everyone that I would not use my FIRE connections to gather information and intelligence on the side without sharing everything here on this blog with everyone else, because it’s not a victimless crime. And in this particular case, the victim is our exposing the truth in the sunshine (which is the best disinfectant) for everyone to see, analyze, evaluate and use for themselves as they see fit.
And by making my principles known and living by them, I believe I have deprived myself of far more information than Joy could have ever gathered in a hundred years because I am an ex hotshot crew boss and she isn’t. And even ex hotshot crew bosses have substantial standing within the WF community as a whole and the world of hotshots in particular.
But, “I don’t think so, homey don’t play dat” like RTS does and so I said, “Please tell me what I want to know, but be advised I won’t keep it a secret, but I will protect your identity and guarantee you anonymity.” And as a result of my policy, I believe nobody has told me squat.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6EsNyIRG-g
If what I was interested in was furthering my own agenda and collecting information to hoard for my book, I think I could be way ahead in the game that Joy and RTS both play. But I think it is wrong and I have standards that neither Joy nor RTS does.
Take HAL 9000 for example, where would this crowd sourced investigation be without his efforts? Nowhere…that’s where. This blog would have died of natural causes years ago. But he doesn’t hold back information and intelligence, he leaves it all on the table for everyone to see, evaluate, analyze and use, including Joy and RTS.
And HAL 9000 has generated more data than everyone else put together times X. And he has done so without making a career out of making all of the noises Joy makes about things to come and “all things in good time” and on and on and on blah, blah, blah, with all of her aggravating riddles and irritating teases. Joy is driving me crazy with her nonsense and games.
And since these are my Golden Years, I try to avoid anything or anyone that irritates me or causes negativity or stress to enter my life. And much like Chief Dan George, in what is arguably the best scene from any Western movie ever made, I Endeavor to Persevere to avoid the aforementioned pitfalls in my everyday life.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6EsNyIRG-g
And so rather than let Joy drive me crazy right now, I am going to follow the sound advice that Jeebs gave to K in MIB and “…go get a massage, take a cruise…”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1FkVXCCfg2A
In addition, I am going to go on a sabbatical from my blogging and focus on writing my tome, but…”I’LL BE BACK!”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I-9dthiJw-Q
Whoops…duplicate link,
And since these are my Golden Years, I try to avoid anything or anyone that irritates me or causes negativity or stress to enter my life. And much like Chief Dan George, in what is arguably the best scene from any Western movie ever made, I “Endeavor to Persevere” and avoid the aforementioned pitfalls in my everyday life.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=atzmdijMfRY&t=5s
Oh…and two more things.
I also have a problem with Joy’s website because as I have repeatedly written, I consider this blog to be the Court Of Record for the storage of data for historical purposes pertaining to the YHFD. And although nothing in this world is certain except things will change, and this blog could die anytime JD pulls the plug on it, or it may die with him, I think all of the information we have generated as a crowd sourced investigation belongs in one place for posterity, historians, and future students of FIRE and not distributed between multiple websites or other sources. That is why I never supported or got involved in Base Camp, even though I admired the committment and enthusiasm behind that huge and complex effort that made my head hurt just thinking about.
If Joy has information, as she continues to insist she does even though she has never shown any proof of it that I am aware of, it belongs here and not on competing website that she manages.
And there is another very important reason for a, “one website policy.” To the best of my knowledge, JD has never done, written or said anything that influences the content one way or the other on this blog. And although I guess JD is still an omnipresence here with us, he is much like the wind (since I don’t want to compare him to you know…”The Big Guy Upstairs) since we can feel his presence but we can’t see it.
Nahhhh…that’s not a good anology, because the wind affects what it touches, whereas JD doesn’t ever touch anything much less try to influence or push it in one direction or the other. That independence is critical to maintaining our integrity as a true crowd sourced investigation, which I think is exciting to be part of because this is next level, virtual social experiment, Aldous Leonard Huxley Brave New World…stuff.
I can’t say the same thing for Joy’s website because she pushes her ideas, interrpretations, theories, and philosophies on what happened on the YHFD. Joy isn’t neutral like JD is and neither is her website.
And even though it has been some time since there was bitter infighting over RTS pushing his own ideas while insisting he was on the right track because he was in the possession of double pinky stinky finger swear super secret information that we would just have to trust him about because he was the only one who had the secret decoder ring and could be trusted to see or even know of the original data or sources.
That wasn’t helpful and HAL 9000 was always the one leading that charge to push for everything to be as transparent as possible and he thought that what wasn’t transparent should be the exception and not the rule. And guess what…if HAL 9000 unplugs from this matrix and returns to either his mother ship or home planet…you will be able to stick a fork in us because we will be done.
And HAL 9000 clearly and very strongly believes that everyone should not withhold information. It was just a few days ago that he rebuked Joy ever so gently, just as TTWARE did.. TTWRE wasn’t quite as gentle, but he wasn’t nearly as harsh as I was. These are examples of an independent crowd sourced investigation policing itself and setting its own standards that everyone should aspire to comply with, just as a hotshot crew does…or did back in my day.
At least that was the way our crew was. The crew boss and squad bosses were restricted by what they could say and do and they had the “small” end of our barracks and didn’t sleep in the crew area. The crew wasn’t restricted and we ran a tight ship within our own guidelines for the benefit of everyone.
And anyone who continually violated those internal conditions of employment and norms, found their bunk and footlocker thrown outside on the ground instead of being in their spot in the crew bunkhouse. That was a clear sign to them (because they had ignored all other less harsh signs, signals and counseling) that their time on our crew was done and they needed to move on with their lives because their presence on our crew threatened our ability to function at our optimum performance level and fight as much fire as possible. And of course make as much money as possible in the process because nobody was there to make friends or add to their Christmas card list. Because in general…it wasn’t an enjoyable experience, it was rewarding at times, but enjoyable at any time…no.
In other words Sonny, I think collecting information and intelligence for the sake if simply collecting it is wrong! No Case Agent ever promises a Source Of Information (SOI) that they will simply collect the information or intelligence they have and then file it away in a black hole until such a time as the SOI feels like coming forward and presenting their material in a public setting themselves. That dog don’t hunt!
That is just one reason Joy shouldn’t be running around playing Secret Sqirrel and collecting data while building her own personal intelligence files. Apparently Joy doesn’t have the slightest idea how to use the data she had aquired?
Do you know why they don’t let car mechanics go down and perform work, much less highly skilled and technical work in an underground mine? It’s the same reason taking an underground miner and putting them in a highly technical setting in a garage where analyzing computer data is essential to determine which very expensive computers need to be ordered to plug in place of whatever components have failed, except not as deadly.
Do you think Joy is capable of interviewing wildland firefighters, assessing their information, analyzing their intelligence, and then processing that data while determining which information is important or what follow up questions to ask, or what lines of questioning to pursue? And much less what to do with that information? That makes about as much sense as putting me where Joy used to work as a chef and telling me to whip up a soufflé…whatever a soufflé is?
Because that is where we are at now and how far we have sunk. We have gone from having Dudley and his band of cronies, flunkies, luckiest, and sycophants blowing smoke up our skirts, to whatever the hell Joy has been doing for about five years now.
But none of what either Joy or Dudley has done has gotten us any closer to our goals, as TTWARE so recently pointed out, that I know of anyway. What is the point of waiting around here waiting for Joy to finally back up some the bullshit she has been spreading around here for years now? Either that or finally cajoling her SOI’s to come forward by all of her secret code talk and riddles?
I offered years ago for Joy to channel her information to me on the back channel, or anyone else so it could be filtered to protect the source but used to futprtyer our goals and objectives. Otherwise…what is the point of collecting it other than to tease us with?
I have a policy that people should never ask me a question they don’t really want to know the answer to, because I just might give them an answer they don’t like and didn’t want to hear.
Oh…and one more thing. In case you have been able to tell, I am trying to give you a thoughtful and in depth response without reverting to my normal back-of-the-bus hotshot vernacular.
But…watchin’ Joy runnin’ an intel op while collectin’ Sources of Information looks an awful lot like watchin’ a monkey tryin’ to fuck a football to me.
Gary–I understand your interest–you are writing a book and need as much correct information as possible. Perhaps Joy and RTS have not thought how this would delay. Joy has said she wants to present before Congress first–the information she has must come from FOIA’s and other sources. I can only tell you I am not privy to what they have uncovered or any facts that will show expose the truth to what happened at Yarnell–not the false front put out for public viewing. Of course if I knew anymore than I have already said–not much due to my limited experience and knowledge of wild land fire fighting –you would certainly know it would be printed. I know Joy has spent countless hours, money and work at getting at what she has. Whether it is wise to withhold that information before a Congressional Hearing I do not know: however, since she and RTS have the information and have uncovered it, then they will have to make that decision. I do understand that Ted is also privy to the information and it seems they all want to with hold.
I am assured after the Congressmen hear them out, then the info will go public, I would agree with you–since if the information is there I want it public now,. Something to consider on FOIA information is that much of what Joy has can not be given out to anyone–it is only for private use and if given publicly then she is subject to fines and even jail time. I know to get FOIA for public use you have to pay a larger sum–I personally have never gotten FOIA information and Joy did not and would not share with me because she was afraid of breaking the law. Now I would guess that she could share that info with a Congressman or for sure an investigative committee.
I do not like the game and the way it is played either–but then how can I know all the particulars of why Joy, RTS and others that with hold information do so. With Amanda and some others trying to protect a false image for Marsh, Steed and others involved I do understand. But I am told RTS, Joy, Steed and the Idaho People who also are with holding that it will be only a few months now until something happens with the Congress thing. So your guess is as good as mine–and more likely much better with your investigative experience.
With some thought on what should be revealed–the way FOIA law is written allows someone to have the information rather cheaply except when you want to put it out publicly. I think Joy was given information without much redaction because someone wanted the truth out there–yet there are a few wishing she would reveal things that she could be brought down for. I suspect there is much information that would hang Marsh post mortem and likely a few others for bringing him on as a Super with his record. If hiring practices are allowed in the wild fire industry so that men of his caliber are put in positions where they can kill a whole crew of 19 men, then something needs to be changed. I say that without even knowing what are on his records and just from what I have gleaned off IM.
Certainly this site will be of utmost importance to history because it is loaded with information that can only be found here. Some of the younger set will get closure from this site and some of the younger wild land fire fighters who tune in will be rewarded with their lives. It is a strike against those in the system who continue to put reputations before lives. John Daugherty will be rewarded for his pure form–and although some things may be a bit off, anyone willing to challenge the main players here in court will only amplify the truth as it is put forth here.
There are many blogs, web sites, etc out there but this would be the main source of information since it has been in existence and constantly updated since JD put it up early on. But anyone making a blog might add to the truth.
I had another three cancers removed from my face–and each time the nice doctor had to recut and it has again left me with plenty of stitches and keeps me up so maybe a good thing. I get to think about Smokey Bear.
I have those little critters that charge me in the morning and the one I named Bear is always ahead of the pack. He is a male and looks like a miniature baby bear with his friendly nature –but I think he will make a good watch dog. They are like the watchers here and when things do not appear proper they raise hell. Well they are not doing that yet but the four grown dogs including Cooper that I got out of the pound is as bad as Cowboy only twice the size of Cowboy. He is even a bit bigger than the Husky, German Shephard mix that brought all the puppies. Even with my bad hearing I can hear their alarm which is seldom –peace brother and calming of the heart is best.
I think I have been happy no matter where for the most part. We take ourselves with us no matter where we go so that mind is over matter for the most part. Of course certain places are extremely polluted–Yarnell is one and perhaps enough rain will eventually dissipate the poisons dropped about it and maybe not. The old mines–especially that mill tailings dump just out of Congress reek of cyanide poisons and certainly those dumps around Yarnell have the same poisons about. However the death count for Yarnell went extreme after the extreme jumbo jet loads of retardant polluted the area. The death toll is approaching 200 now–good Lord that is one third of the population but nothing much is said about that and no memorials have been put up for those guinea pigs. I actually died from it but was brought back by a good Prescott Doctor and the life support units in ER and the watchful eye of Joy who was able to order the tube removed from my throat and other life supports that needed to be stopped. My son did the same and told them to remove the thing from my throat–too long in there and you can develop pneumonia he said–so maybe things in life support can be overdone and after a time become a detriment Still, although I will finally see the wound doctor for the last time on Friday, I have to see a Pulmonary Specialist due to something on the left lung that acts like a heart attack. Three more cancers to be removed from my face in the meantime–so that is nine that required some pretty rough surgery–not fun for a few days after with this painful face. This time I took some codeine and did not hesitate to relieve the pain–yet in a few days it will be all gone and I can stand another round of cutting. Still, I am grateful it can be done–can you imagine had they gone much longer I would have gotten a real makeover-so you would not recognize the previous Sonny. I feel for people that do face lifts and the such-that would not be my cup of tea after the experience of these–especially the nose job I got to remove one–that is felt. Maybe I am telling you this to save you some pain–you are better off with your old looks and without the pain.
But the psychological pain that the loved ones suffer from their loss will never go away–I still think of my son and it is not right that he went before me–yet life is treacherous at times and people prone to error. I think though the truth of things will help since we need to know why to relieve our pain of loss. And thanks to the people on this site much of that closure has been put forth. People do need to know the truth–so if the people getting the ear of Congressmen are successful then I give them gold stars for their concerns and efforts.
.
Reply to Charlie post on January 30, 2019 at 6:05 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Something to consider on FOIA information is that much of what
>> Joy has can not be given out to anyone–it is only for private use
>> and if given publicly then she is subject to fines and even jail time.
That is complete horseshit.
You ( and, apparently, Joy as well ) are completely misunderstanding the difference between a ‘commercial’ and ‘non-commercial’ FOIA requests.
In BOTH cases… you are absolutely free to ‘publish’ anything you receive.
The ONLY difference is whether or not there is a ‘clear intent’ to MAKE MONEY off the publication of that information.
If you DO have that ‘clear intent’ when you make the FOIA request… then you must say so. That is a ‘commercial’ request… and even then the only difference is the agency you are requesting the records from now has the right to charge for things like ‘research time’ and ‘making copies’ and whatnot.
But if YOU ( the one requesting the records ) do NOT plan on clearly ‘making money’ off the information returned… then you are allowed to make a ‘non-commercial’ request for the information and they are NOT allowed to charge you for ‘research fees’. Maybe still a small fee for making copies… but that’s about it.
Either way… what comes back is YOURS to do with as you please.
You can stand on a street-corner with a loudspeaker and read from the documents, or you could make your own copies and hand them out to anyone you like… or stuff the information under wind-shield wipers in a Wal-Mart parking lot.
Whatever you like.
That information is now YOURS… and if you think the PUBLIC at large has a right to see it ( ALL of it )… you are free to ‘publish’ or ‘post’ that information any way you see fit ( as long as you are not being PAID to do so ).
Even if something then ends up thinking that you ARE making money ( and it has to be REALY MONEY ) off the information you received… and that could ever be proved in a court of law… the ONLY penalties are you might have to then make up the difference for the costs they WOULD have been allowed to charge you if the request was originally specified ‘commercial’ versus ‘non-commercial’.
And there certainly is no ‘jail time’ possible. No way.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I know to get FOIA for public use you have to pay a larger sum
Absolutely NOT.
Yes… an official ‘commercial’ request is subject to some fees ( like research fees and copying fees ) that a ‘non-commercial’ request is exempt from…
…but you do not have to ‘pay more’ to get the same information… or to then have the right to share whatever you get in a PUBLIC way.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I personally have never gotten FOIA information and Joy did
>> not and would not share with me because she was afraid of
>> breaking the law.
See above. Joy is, apparently, still totally confused about all this.
She is TOTALLY FREE to SHARE anything she received from any non-commercial’ FOIA request with anyone she wants… as long as she is not being PAID ( and it has to be REAL money ) for the information.
Followup…
After re-reading my post above… I am feeling the need to apologize.
I should not have typed “That is complete horseshit”.
That was WAY too strong a reaction on my part, and I apologize.
FOIA laws ARE confusing. Many people have the wrong idea about them.
I could not possibly have more respect for you than I already do, and that just seemed like a very rude way to come back at you over such a trivial thing.
The rest of the response still stands, though.
Commercial or non-commercial… you ARE free to ‘publish’ or ‘share’ anything you receive… any way you like… and the ONLY difference ( ultimately ) is whether you are actually doing it for PROFIT, or not.
Ok I was going by what another had told me–I know you would be correct in your response and the correction is well taken. I personally had not gotten a FOIA but when i looked at someone else’s FOIA i was informed that was the law; So thanks–I did not know and certainly did not want to misinform people
No…I don’t think you’re comment was quite strong enough. I have told the same exact thing to Joy numerous times over the years. I finally have concluded that she can’t possibly be that stupid and so the only other explanation for her continual epic intransigence is that her “complete horseshit” is exactly what I have concluded it is, an excuse to keep on doing what the Woodsman described with such clarity above and hoarding her information while scooping up everything she can from us…especially you.
And with all due respect HAL, may I call you HAL because it feels like we kind of gotten to know each other after more than FIVE YEARS, is because this isn’t an acedemic excercise here we are going through because we don’t have anything else better to do, because we all do.
We are doing this because we care about the catastrophic and criminal negligence I the loss of 19 wildland firefighters in what was one of the worst possible ways to die.
And by not only refusing to admit the real reasons they dies, but covering up the real reasons they died, the lives of more firefighters have been put at risk. Because like I always say, “Once may be an anomaly, twice may be a coincidence, but three times is definitely a patten.”
Okay…now I am starting my sabbatical!
Good you know the law, I was going by what I was told, not what I researched or read.
Wow, then you ought to know that the FOIA about Marsh from Prescott is full of reasons he should not have been hired as a supervisor. Did you get a FOIA to inspect on your own. I have not and have not seen it but had been told that Marsh’s FOIA reports are not good when it comes to his abilities as a leader.
I stand down because sometimes hearsay is not admissible –Yet I did not need the FOIA nor hearsay to know that Marsh was a dud. Just the fact that he had broken every rule in the wild land fire fighters safety orders in order to kill his men is enough–but add to that the fact that the very place I did risk my own ass to return from the top of the Weavers to keep Joy from going down to her death–then see that those men were ordered down at that very spot into a zone that anyone should have known was an absolute Russian Roulette game with 5 bullets in the six shooter should have been seen by the dimmest of wild land fire fighting bosses.
I am amused though–and just now on the news a cop and his lady cop friend were playing Russian roulette–she is dead–and they were doing this on duty and I can imagine that was with only one bullet in the six shooter. So there are dim wits everywhere–In fact when I had a bar called Texas Bar in Safford, Arizona, one Chuy Garza shoed me a scar on his cheek where a 22 bullet had exited through his jaw taking out a tooth with it. At least he had wits enough if there can be such thing in Russian Roulette to aim so it did not go into his brain but out the side of his jaw–I do not know if it was a bad tooth he knocked out but he said he would not do that again.
Yet when a wild land fire fighting boss is willing to pay the Roulette game with 18 other lives so he might claim his 15 minutes to fame and be seen as a star wild land fire fighter we are suspect of those that were involved in allowing him to play Supervisor. It makes me sick to my stomach that such ballyhoo could be made to present him and his superiors as having done a good job at fighting the Yarnell Fire.
The fire was at an impossible stage to stop and even going toward Peeples Valley you could see flames exploding ahead so that even at that early time it was the Big Dog Eating. There was no hope to stop it going into Yarnell and the last thing that could save a house was waving a Pulaski around. Evacuation was the only alternative–something assigned to the Sheriff Department who themselves were having to evacuate as soon as possible and any body else–even fire fighters were evacuated to the Ranch House Cafe.
So they can play dumb and you can get all the FOIA information you want–it only can back the obvious.
And no I am not so smart–but even a dummy could see what we were up against and yet the very spot on the two track where Joy was sitting they did drop off into a maze that despite what Willis said–Firefighters can not get through such manzanita fast enough to outrun an approaching fire even if it were coming at 3mph.
The truth was Joy and I escaped with only a ten minute margin and she can describe how difficult it was and how pressured I was to get the hell out of there. But that ten minute margin was actually down to about five when we got in my jalopy and followed out others that had already been driven from their homes along Foothills Drive.
It is pretty simple to see that you do not want to hire fools and psychopaths to boss young wild land fire fighters. It is wonderful that the retired wild land fire fighters here are unhappy with what went down at Yarnell that needlessly killed the young wild land fire fighters. What is horrible is that Marsh and Steed were given a pass as if they did no wrong. They belong to the likes of Billiy the Kid who it was said killed 21–one at a time–maybe if he had a wild land fire handy and with a good recommendation, he could have done it all at once.
Here is the sad thing–i was able to hike with so many wild land fire fighters of long experience–yet not one of those well informed men could understand how you would take your crew down into that situation –that especially after they reviewed the photos Joy had of the dense manzanita and the idea that there was no look out or even an escape possibility–and that was enough even without mentioning communication problems. It was simply a no-brainer to those men–and a no way situation. I don’t know how many more wild land fire fighting pros hiked with Joy on her 900+ hikes but I can imagine none agreed with the Marsh decision–how could they since it was absolutely stupid to risk your crew that way and kill them and including his person as well.
So when the young ones or the common citizen considers those facts, then they will know the falsity of the reports put out by the FS and others with personal agendas to cover the truth If you repeat a lie 21 times people will believe it–sometimes even less–in the case of Yarnell, the lie has been repeated hundreds of times and backed by popular authors, movies and other clowns.
I sometimes think i am too harsh on my reviews of Marsh–it is after all human to err and I could never be the one to cast the first stone. I think so much responsibility lies on those old timers that allowed the situation–those that recommended him and elected him with only a glance at his qualifications. I have always felt that there was more to the Marsh tragedy–that perhaps he in a manner is a scapegoat for a failed system. He certainly is not a hero and hopefully his causing of those deaths was negligible and not intentional homicide. I will depend on the wisdom of WTKTT to get the legal wording correct.–of negligence vs intentional concerning homicides.
In many ways wild land fire fighting is akin to mining–those with little experience are bound to get themselves into serious trouble. And very serious trouble if they are risk takers with some knowledge and willing to take unnecessary risks that ultimately will kill those they supervise as we did see in the case of Marsh and Steed.
With long experience I think I was able to keep alive working in hard rock and Uranium Mining. But even there danger lurks if you did not have the experience–For example I had never been a raise miner. That is something you strictly do on your own–it is too dangerous to have a helper beside you since you are depending upon stulls held in with wooden wedges and a heavy platform made of usually 2×12 lumber. The jack hammer is on a leg and drilling straight up with all that vibration on that platform. If your platform gives and you are up a hundred feet you are almost certainly dead. Why few miners will take that job and why after my first experience of my platform failing and a falll that could have easily ended it all–I had to learn to adjust to the danger–get those damn stulls in tight and proper. But usually because of the long time experience I would have a sixth sense when something was about to give and have jumped back more than once to save myself from being a pancake. So I have to believe the old time fire fighter belongs on the line to determine things –whether men should go down into an area or whether the wind is about to make an about face. I am again reminded of Ted who saved those guys because he stopped them from going into certain death–he knew and yet they were willing to defy his good wisdom about wild land fire fighting–he had to get nasty with them since they were told by their distant commander to go to this point. They were green and yet Ted being with them had his hands full to save their lives.
That old Johnny Bull mine tried to kill me several times just as it had killed that little girl. I think since it was a mine that dated back to the early 1900’s it had probably killed a few good men. The ground was bad in there–even once when I was mining with a partner and we were climbing out the wooden ladder a boulder that just fit between the ladder came down took out three rungs on that ladder and just lodged there –the next rung was the hand hold–and that was totally unexpected. It came close to killing us both. Another time, I was drilling and noticing dust falling from a crack above my head–a quick jump back and the wall came out the size of an automobile bending the steel on my Jack hammer and burying it below a pile of rock and rubble. The last time I was there someone had bulldozed it completely in–maybe they lost a loved one there–but the gemstones were such a lure and so beautiful that mine had to have killed someone that did not have good Irish luck and instincts. I hope it was not Don Gibbert, the guy I mentioned that was on the ladder with me when the rungs were taken out.
So the safety law of having experience in dangerous work is an absolute necessity especially in wild land fire fighting where the man in charge is responsible for those many lives under him and the man in charge of the man in charge of the men–that man is also responsible if he allows a killer to go unabated.
My Dad was in charge of me–but he knew his mining from a long time and kept a close watch on the ground. I never feared around him and I was never hurt all the years I helped him in his mining adventures. He was experienced and I knew he had the utmost concern for my safety–and i think I inherited enough of his mining genes that I could actually enjoy my underground work. The early gods in their spacecrafts needed gold–so they made crazies out of some of us to do things like wild land fire fighting, mining, logging and soldiering Not jobs for the weak, reckless or stupid–better to stick to politicking if you can’t stand the heat in the kitchen.
Oh yeah something about Joy–She has worked tirelessly on the solution to the Yarnell mystery–which is really no mystery–most of the facts are known and told here–plenty to know what really went down that lead to the deaths of the 19. But still the real effects of the truth have yet to happen–meaning changes that need to be made to save lives.
So over the years I have known Joy she has subjected herself to helping others–mostly those unable to do for themselves, although I had seen her pulling weeds for the black lady and her white husband when they had a son so damned lazy he would just watch Joy do her dirty job. I helped the man do some of his plumbing as well–some people are in a position to use others. But our efforts were meant well yet when I see users I back off.
Still Joy had me helping her deliver hundreds of care packages ,and we were doing the type work any good person would care to do. And we saw many of those good people doing work as well–freely volunteering to help people that had lost homes and possessions in Yarnell.
The credit actually goes to Joy for those good works and I hope someday she gets the recognition for her good works. I have seen birds light on her hand and squirrels come to her–something special about that–and sometimes even relocating rattlesnakes. (There are a few of those in wild land fire fighting that need relocating as well) Whatever she is doing to expose the lies and subterfuge I applaud her for it. She may not be doing it just like everyone would like–but she is doing what she believes is best for all==that I can testify to–I would tell Joy keep up your guard–when you get among the Den of Snakes, the bigger they are the more dangerous they become. Going against those that have made big profits off the Yarnell Debacle and are now high as you can get on the political ladder without becoming President –t;hose people are going to defend the early stand they made with all their power–whether they know it is a lie or not–reputation to a political hack is the ultimate and those will defend it with no holds barred.
I do wish her the best. As far as I am concerned the bright side and truth are already out–it just will take someone with clout to put it public where it will do the most good.
One thing is that Joy has known personally the many people that have deceased and kept me abreast of the count–I include myself –but I am not yet burned or buried–the others are. Down the line someone will expose the deadly chemical called Retardant–and Joy I do appreciate your work on that–the 19 was a mass murder situation–the nearly 200 elderly expired in a few short years after the retardant dumps is ten fold the careless homicide of the young fire fighters. It needs recognition. Our elderly are the golden gems of wisdom ==to be honored, not wasted.
And this comment is a variation of a similar comment I made about 5 years ago, but now that more time has gone by and you know me a little better, I think you will understand it better.
The reason I am so confident that I would be able to give everyone the answers regarding what happened to our crew on the YHFD is because it would be ridiculously easy to do so if I still had the law enforcement authority you people trusted me with for 22 years and the support of the U.S. Attorneys Office and the U.S. Forest Service who is deliberately hiding the truth from you and the reason why bought and paid for shitbags like Dudley and Legarza handle problems like the YHFD for management rather than get you know…trained investigators involved in…investigations.
This is how it works;
1. Everyone is entitled to protection against self incrimination under the 5th Admendment Of The U.S. Constutution.
2. No one is guaranteed a job working for the U.S. Government.
3. Everyone who does work for the U.S. Government which includes the U.S. Forest Service is required to tell the truth to Special Agents when those agents are conducting an official investigation, just as long as that required cooperation doesn’t violate the U.S. Constitution etc.
4. Special Agents carry and use what is called a Garrity Warning, which was named after the Federal Judge Garrity. In United States law, the Garrity warning is an advisement of rights usually administered by federal, state, or local investigators to their employees who may be the subject of an internal investigation.
5. The Garrity warning advises subjects of their criminal and administrative liability for any statements they may make, but also advises subjects of their right to remain silent on any issues that tend to implicate them in a crime. (See Kalkines warning concerning federal employees.)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrity_warning
6. Once given a Garrett Warning, virtually no federal employee is going to lie to an investigator because if they do, that lie becomes irrefutable grounds for immediate and permanent TERMINATION from their federal employment. The reason we still don’t know what happened to our crew on the YHFD is because the federal civil servants who work for YOU PEOPLE don’t want you to know. And until that changes, or those people, or any number of state employees and other people who know everything decide to come forward and tell us on their own instead of apparently whispering it to enabling shitbags like Joy and RTS who think they have the right to run around and use their connections and this blog to collect information for themselves they are under no obligation to share because they gave some other shitbad a double pinky swear stinky finger promise.
I’m sorry Joy…but if you talk like a shitbag, walk like a shitbag, act like a shitbag, conspire with other shitbags…chances are…you are a SHITBAG. How do you think RTS will like that title when he gets back from his dealio? RTS and you are both shitbags because if you lie down and sleep with shitbags…guess what? You are a shitbag. That’s just the way life is and either you are, or you aren’t. I always had to strong of s sense of right and wrong to go any higher than field ops in the BLM or any other government agency. I had a seat at The Table, but it was always just s temporary seat until I briefed them on what they wanted to know and then I was dismissed so I could go and take a shower after being that close to so many shitbags.
If you and Shitbag RTS ever get tired of being shitbags, you can come in from the cold and get a shower any time you want because the American People are a forgiving people, but we are also a wrathful and warlike people.
Of…and when I said I will be driving the nicest Jeep in Moab, I meant of course the nicest Jeep to me since it is 13 years old and that is my newest Jeep. My oldest Jeep is 21 years old, but I also have a real beater Jeep that is 15 years old. None of them are worth very much money. That’s just the way life is if you love TJ’s (and LJ’s) as much as I do. The good thing about not having much, is you don’t have anything worth suing you for. So sue away motherfuckers!
Oh…and one more thing. The reason I say the Border Patrol will NEVER be able to secure the border on their own, is becausethr Border Patrol has NEVER even come close to securing the border on their own.
Don’t be so stupid as to believe that just because President Trump goes to the boder, and finds some Border Patrol Agents to line up behind him and parrot what he says. is because he is the President of the United States and their boss, not because he is right,
The Border Patrol has gone from about 6000 agents to more than 20,000 agents since 911 and they are no closer to securing the border than they have ever been. And of course if you ask a bunch of Border Patrol agents what they need in order to do their jobs better, they will say, ,”Give us more resources”, 10 out of every 10 times you ask them that same question, but that doesn’t make it true either,
The reason you can tell I am right, is because neither the price of drugs, nor the wide available of cheap labor with the presence of lots of Undocumented Aliens (UDA’S) has never been affected by Border Patrol measures….EVER.
The border can be secured, and like I said below, just follow Israel’s 🇮🇱 example. The only problem is, the Israelis have a few hundred mikes of flat border to seal in its entirety with a short coastline. Whereas we have many, many thousands of miles of unsecured border, the cost of which to secure like the Israelis do it, would be hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars annually and take almost our entire military and then you would have the privilege of buying cherries that cost $10..00 a basket.
And almost all of the other fruit and produce this country grows, would rot in the fields and violent crime….would go up more than you can imagine in your worst nightmare because junkies wouldn’t stop using hard drugs, they would just commit more violent and desperate acts to get those more expensive and almost cost prohibitive drugs.
Remember…the terrorists only have to get lucky once, with one group, at one time, and at one place. We have to be lucky with all groups, all of the time, in every place, 24/7. So…Secure The Border, isn’t code for keep out the terrorists and drugs, it is code for keep out the brown people who don’t look like me, because apparently I come from preferred immigrant heritage…lucky me. Please stop being so fucking STUPID and GULLIBLE! You are embarrassing yourselves.
If you want to stop UDA’S from coming into this country, take away the incentive for greedy business men and greedy customers to hire them. And if you want to stop the flow of drugs into this country, stop the demand for drugs in this country. And if you want to stop terrorists from coming into this country, stop making more of them with our foreign policies and then go and kill everyone of the motherfuckers that are still alive in the spider holes and caves they are hiding in.
Because I say we CAN kill our way out of danger, we just haven’t been trying hard enough or killing enough of them. But…we also have to quit making more of them deliberately, but mostly, we have to kill more of them. And to some extent, we will never be able to eliminate the threat entirely, because there are people who hate us just because of who we are. That’s just the way life is.
I am NOT a liberal or a Democrat. I am a Centrist, an Independent, a Moderate, a Pragmatist and a Realist, you should be one too.
Oh…and two more things. I am a Christian and a Compassionate Conservative and I really try hard not to be a racist, a misogynist, a bigot, a homophobe or xenophobic. But…sometimes I definitely fuck up but I try to own it when I do.
Or a Russian Nationalist Lover…I am definitely NOT a lover of meeting with or working for representatives of the Russian Government, especially their INTELLIGENCE SERVICES!
I kinda gave up on Trumpites when I saw them wearing T-shirts at Trump Rallies that said, “I’d rather a Russian than a Democrat!”
Really? Okay…have it your way motherfuckers!
Whoops 😬, I forgot AMERICAN PATRIOT…because above all else, I am an American Patriot. How about you?
To Boldie from Goldie 🙂
what did the baby light bulb say to the mama light bulb?
I love you watts and watts 😉
If the world is our stage, sir than we need get better lighting – we are both getting older.
At my wedding Craig asked me “does the light go out when you shut the fridge, really?” and I thought yeah I am sure- I think the light was created for those midnight snacks- right?
Light diet I am on…I eat by day light … moon light and again sometimes by the refrigerator light
I have read just a couple not all the comments by you because I am in Navy Seal core training getting ready for school and I have to stay mindful
Also you are opting to pick me out and highlight me is cool because less focus on the real people; the ones that matter- whatever works.
Sonny, another Yarnell death – Jack Robinson – so I will be in Yarnell for that… You bought a vehicle off Jack. Sorry to have to tell you.
Sir, about ballistics…anyone who knows me knows I enjoy challenging on guns and religion. Right, Sonny-
To go there and pick a part each comment. I rather just state “keep your Grendel in your pants…pants pocket.’..that is
You taught me this week for sure FIRE ORDER NUMBER SIX
Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.
SO thank you, Gary. 🙂
Hang on…I will read the rest when I can…I was going to yoda my way thru and read it backwards to see if the verbiage changed…I kept thinking of white bar of Ivory soap…wonder why?
Some blustrous and full-tilt-vitriolic-rants- one moment I am thinking you are playing ‘good cop-bad cop’ then I am thinking you are for sure my best friend…the funny part is we have more in common than you think…
The insulting and insinuating behavior of yours might be acceptable or enabled by others yet I stand firm I have been truthful and always will be…
Your opinion is your opinion but half the entire population must be thinking when they read your verbiage much like the dashboard of a vehicle… warning, warning, warning
Everything has its time…
BREATHE DEEPER, Gary
ready…breathe in and breathe out
it is going to be just fine.
take MORE-than-just-one-step BACKWARDS in order to gain even a greater perspective
(after all, Gary I do not see you calling out others just me and I know for sure I do not lay alone in the knows)
FLETC-Training Students:
Have you figured by Gary’s comments what are the tell all secrets I must know..I have coded them throughout the beginning of time here- that I do know..
What was the tactical change from being kind in recent times to then switch back to this?
Did you note students, I jumped out a funk thanks to Gary and so remember when someone calls on you or calls you out
REMEMBER THE THANK YOUS ALWAYS
Thank you Gary O-
Now return to FLETC_Training-101 Curriculm.
oh wait…Class…before you go…always keep up on your insults and practice them here on IM after you retire…or practice the Delivery-of-the-SAME- in your mirror at least once a week and even take selfies as you BELLOW and BLUSTER and THREATEN and INTIMIDATE until the HOUSE shakes—selfies are good and come across less intimidating….
BELLOW AWAY!
Rinse-Dry-Repeat
Hmmm-m-m-m….hidden away in the desert or forest…passing by the wolf and lion…
eekkkk…I failed to see that sign as I traversed
Please do not feed the animals.
I replied and fed the beast that is burdened-
oops. me sorry 😉
good night, Gary.
https://www.powerstream.com/powerhumor.htm
Gary, in the end and during this all…I got your back…you want people like me on your team.
When you tell me it’s Easter- it better April 😉
You and I were not born for the wings, eh.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pr0digie/6182619198
or were we? I have mine I got for flying as a kid-
you?
Remember to base your days on joy- do not base it on feelings or how today goes…
What fluctuates more than my finances, health and weight….are Gary’s rants 😉
“Mic drop”
Yes it’s true…I have an bag full of old and now mostly useless tools. Unfortunately… none of them work in this virtual setting. I did a lot better with close physical proximity, police powers, the support of the U.S. Attorney’s Office and the backing of the United States Government.
Oh…and a really big gold badge that shouted SPECIAL AGENT! It didn’t even matter what agency it said I worked for because nobody’s eyes ever made it that far because they just peed on themselves a little bit.
True Story,
I went into a jail one time to interview a suspect in a case I was working. After closely examining my badge and credentials, at the first bullet proof glass window, the deputy yelled “OPEN THE DOOR…FBI’S HERE.!”
But I needed to go into the high security area so at the next bullet proof glass window after carefully examining my credentials and badge, the next deputy yelled, “OPEN THE DOOR…THE U.S. MARSHALL’S ARE HERE!
After that, I was tempted to get a Private Security Badge and credentials on the internet just to see if they worked as well as a Master Key to open all doors. I miss the good old days when people like Joy couldn’t laugh at me and just ignore me until I went away.
It’s not personal…it’s just business. I only care about accomplishing my objectives. I learned that fighting wildfires. Wildland firefighting is a very goal oriented business.
Gary,
Sonny came up with a great plan-
Head to NM and become his wood splitter…
might be the best route, eh.
Just walk away into the dust…
better than dust to dust….ashes to ahses…eh
Whoops…I misspoke. I shouldn’t have written people “like Joy”, I should have just written…”people.”
I am old, impotent, and nearly useless. You should help me now because you should feel sorry for me. What kind of heartless people are you anyway?
Yes…that might be my best opportunity under the circumstsnces.
Life’s a bitch( non gender specific) and then you DIE!
Good news, I will see if this posts again–Joy has taken a video today of the wall where the drip torches at the Shrine area were being used–a picture is worth a thousand words.
“It’s not personal Joy…it’s strictly business.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FUh3TZpMCY4
They are ignorant enough to want to be Russians, but I can tell you that there are plenty of Russian people trying to leave Russia and come here. They do not know history well enough of how millions were put to death–even their soldiers were to charge Germans without weapons into machine gun fire to pick up the weapon of the guy in front of them once he was killed and to turn back at such a slaughter was to be shot. That system is by no means a good one for lives–and Jane Fonda–you screwed up royally riding a Red tank while our men were dying. But you did get your photo on a rubber mat in a Urinal at the American Legion at Yarnell.
So yes, perhaps Trump will get his Trump tower in Russia and perhaps he likes Putin’s tactics of taking care of those that protest his presidency–but there are certainly plenty of us ready to defend good old America that is great–not a place that has lost its greatness.
It is always true of Dictators–they abhor the press when it does not parallel his purpose. They will do everything to repress any bad news and will always get rid of anyone that hints of objecting to their methods. It is only yes men and even those he can not trust. Fortunately there are enough powers in the democratic system to keep him somewhat at bay.
But with his ability to declare a National Emergency then anything might happen. Eisenhower did not even go that far when it came to the worry over illegal aliens.
This President will pass and perhaps the cycle will start again. Only two more years of his BS and then who will fill his shoes? Will it be the guy that runs Star Bucks. Might be good coffee at the White House if he does.
I wonder what powers the President really has and how much political subterfuge goes on. Noriega was involved in major Drug running and eventhough Reagan knew that, he was not disposed until the public began to be informed of how rotten Pineapple Head as his protesters called him had become. Bush sent the army down when he started waving his machete at the US. But when it comes to Kim Jong-un he is waving his nuclear at us–South Korea, Japan and whomever else he dislikes.
Gary is right about McCain–though not all the Vietnamese are happy about what the US did in Vietnam. When I was in Helena riding my bike around town and sleeping out in my Wagoneer, I met a Vietnamese man who told me he never understood why we would invade his country. He did not think it was right but he was only a small voice in a sea of people. So it would be interesting to know–and I doubt a poll would favor our invasion.
When the economy is waning, a good war seems to appear. Roosevelt brought the US out of the depression by taking on Germany. Truman followed by killing a few hundred thousand Japanese in one swoop with A Bombs. I have heard the pilot that flew the Enola Gay, unlike McCain would wind up in an insane asylm. It had to bear upon him for all the civilians he killed–but McCain did not seem to be bothered by his indiscriminate bombing that killed the enemy and the innocents as well. Collateral damage is a polite word for indiscriminate killing. But this is war and there were guys bragging about collecting ears of dead soldiers. There is barely a hand full of peace time Presidents.
But to Trump’s favor he seems to be wanting to bring Troops home from interfering with Syria–I doubt that will extend to nations that have plenty of oil to supply us.
So it truly is a dangerous world when your leaders are on the psychotic side. Very dangerous if you are a wild fire fighter and your bosses have the freedom to break every safety rule and take you down and sacrifice your life knowing full well their actions are risking that very thing.
There is good and evil and it certainly stands as evil when 19 men are needlessly killed. But the system has a large paint brush that extends from the top down and I think it is so high that only a Congressman or a President can intervene.
Don’t count on the representatives–they have their hands in the till–even in building memorials and awarding these contracts to relatives and cronies. But if you are going to be successful to gain a better G rating, then you best listen to those fellows above you and as Gary puts it, play the sticky finger.
Wouldn’t it be nice if we could get an honest report about the killing of those 17 young heroes. What would induce Marsh and Steed to do what was the unthinkable? Maybe it will actually take decades before all the facts come out–mostly when men involved in this game retire and decide to come clean–and maybe not until their death beds?
I think if someone would copy this site and send it to every Congressman then something might happen to get to the truth and start looking at how things are being done to cause these deaths.
Hear Ye, Hear Ye–Congressmen–these people of high esteem and standing that have spent long years at this wild land fire fighting profession speak out. Take time to listen to these mostly retired wild land fire fighting bosses to their musings. There expertise well exceeds the men who have cursorily investigated the killing of the GMHS crew.
I do have to believe some do read IM posts. They will if they want a good understanding of the hidden truth of the Yarnell Debacle.
Gary the population is 65% Latino here– Latinos will rule what they had from the get go– good thing to learn Spanish–I took 5 years at the NMSU and speak and read enough to do well–Russian here will not do.
Did not get that one Gary? Count you as number one in getting at the truth–am I missing a lot? I know you are direct but this seems like you know and I am certain you do much understand more than I could ever know. Being simple as I am, I depend much upon the nuances of things–and what gives here? You certainly are calling out people on their shit.
Now being simple is good because I can be direct. One reason that people that live in Idaho would not share with me because they said Sonny, you would tell it right out. And that is true because I am that way–yet also I understand how people like to play the undercover
Undercover with me almost cost me my life–I was not undercover but the cop was and he never informed me. My kids were at stake and that was something no man dared harm. So I have never liked undercover operations since. Bring the truth out and boldly.
I can see I am missing much that you know way beyond my understanding and abilities so I will stand down on this one with much due respect to you– and what more can I say?
Well there is entitlement to the loved ones and to the truth and I do have to say if I have any feelings of who is ahead in knowledge and wisdom of the truth–Gary your sources and age would be on top and I will always say Amen to the truth.
I have had a few whiskeys tonight with my son–He said he quit his job and is getting a new one because he took off due to my gun shot wound–he did not think I would live–and when the boss told him he could not take another week he told them then fire me. The did but then told him he could come back but he refused. Now he is working on the Navajo reservation and I told him that I had been fired as a miner once for throwing a pipe wrench at the mine superintendent. I was hired the next day at the mine up the street–miners wee hard to find and you did not agitate them if you wanted to keep them. I think ER RN’s have about the same status–life saving is a tough job and few can qualify.
I will not make any remarks here on what Gary has said–I think he has something to back his report– But either way–Yes we do have that connection and I really believe your Dad and I will be close friends in another life and you will be there with us. I have to admit, when I saw your Dad’s photo I knew he was the best of the best–one I would have gladly enjoyed some of those frozen pictures of beer with. Your Dad was the real miner and immediately I knew he was a friend who would have died for me as I would have for him. He was indeed a warrior and If anyone deserved an award for being a hero that would be him. You see, few would understand that but I certainly do.
Oh…just ignore me until I go away like almost everyone else does 😞 I am just frustrated because I can’t fix something that I know is so easy to fix…if you have the right tools, training and authorization.
I need to go on a sabbatical and just work on my tome. I will be back to post my backlogged comments because it’s very important for everyone to stay up to speed on what I am thinking about the YHFD, wildland firefighting in general and whatever else pops into my mind at the time. I wish I drank…or at least smoked dope.
Ciao
Gary said:
“I am just frustrated because I can’t fix something that I know is so easy to fix…if you have the right tools, training and authorization. ”
I said:
Yep. I’m firmly standing right beside you in that camp, friend…..I have better things to do with my life, seeing as how much further along towards the truth we have gotten here in contrast to effort expended.
Thank you Woodsman.
And just in case anyone is thinking I am engaging in revisionist history that is out of context, I can assure you I am not. I am just repeating history, I’m not rewriting it.. I am not condemning General Kit Carson for being a genocidal war criminal, because he was after all, carrying out official U.S. Government policy. I am simply stating he was a genocidal war criminal, well I guess that is overstated because there weren’t Geneva Convetion standards to judge war criminals by back then. And to be fair, the Indians certainly committed a great many atrocities as well against both white people and the Spanish.
So…I should simple say he was a genocidal killing machine who was directly or indirectly responsible for killing about 1/3 of the Navajo people and lots and lots of other Indians just like President Andrew Jackson was.
But General Carson did break the will of the Navajo people to fight and forced them onto a reservation with the “Long Walk” (see true story below) in less than two years, which was something the historically brutal Conquistadors weren’t able to do in 300 years.
And, who knows how many Pueblo Indians the Navajo slaughtered when they invaded the 4 corners region as relatively late comers and mostly drove out the descendants of the Anasazi people from their lands.?
And to Sonny’s point, I’m sure when one of my heroes, Senator John McCain, was dropping bombs on the Capital City of the Vietnamese people, he probably called them the “G” word in order to dehumanize them, which would make it easier to drop bombshell on them.
And he probably admitted before his death some of those bombs were off target and hit civilian targets which resulted in the deaths of civilians including children. And we know that after they shot him down, they tortured him for 5 1/2 years.
But we also know in the end, both he and the Vietnamese people embraced and forgave one another. And Senator McCain took the lead in normalizing our relations with Vietnam and now that country is a favorite place to visit by Americans. My own brother visited there, Cambodia, and Thailand many times because he was a world traveler and he loved that region of the world. My brother also loved to go trekking up into the Himalayas in Nepal, Turkey and every other out of the way place you can think of.
We also know that the Vietnamese government placed a statue of Senator McCain next to the lake he landed in before they captured him and he is a highly revered and much loved person in Vietnam today.
I know history is complicated and messy. I’m just trying to be more like John McCain that’s all. And I know white people don’t have to fear to live among brown people because we are so much alike.
But all of my stories from my 18 years in New Mexico aren’t happy or peaceful ones, because there are really bad people everywhere you go and from every race. At the end of the day, humans are a very dangerous and unpredictable species and they say we are the only species on the planet who kills for pleasure instead of just food.
Okay, I think I have done all of my housekeeping and I am finally ready to start my sabbatical, except for my last True Story for a while.
I was and still am friends, with one of the U.S. Attorneys from Arizona, Paul Charlton, who is now in private practice because he was one of the U.S. Attorneys fired by President George Bush and Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez because he wouldn’t implement illegal and immoral enforcement actions. That episode eventually cost Gonzales his job and remains a black mark on the Presidency of W, but that isn’t the point of this story.
Anyway, I worked with Paul for many years and got to know him well as the finest Assistant U.S. Attorney I ever worked with when he was a junior prosecutor working for former U.S. Attorney for Arizona, Arizona Governor, Department Of Homeland Security Secretary and current head of the University of California system, Janet Napolitano. Who I also knew quite well because she gave me a Special Agent Of The Year award in 1998.
Wow…this is really a long set up, but anyway…Paul eventually because THE U.S. Attorney for Arizona because John McCain wanted it that way. So anyway, Paul used to tell a story that whenever he prosecuted cases that involved older Navajos from the reservation who didn’t speak English, the Navajos translators would identify him to the non English speaking older Navajo as., “The man from Fort Sumner.” This met he was a high ranking representative of the U.S. Government in the Navajo language, which is something I still find fascinating to this day.
Fort Sumner is down in Lincoln County, New Mexico, which is the old Billy the Kid territory and it was the terminus for the “Long March” for the Navajo. “The Long March” was very similar to the “Trail of Tears” for the tribes who were forcibly relocated to Oklahoma from their lands down in Georgia, Florida and maybe some other states…S.E. U.S.
Ft Summer was also the concentration camp for both the Navajo and Mescalero Apaches. So…the “Long March” and Ft. Sumner may be ancient and forgotten history to us, but the Navajo people haven’t forgotten about either one of them.
Whoops, I knew something wasn’t right. “The Long March” was of course the Chinese Red Army retreating before the Japanese during their invasion of China prior and during WWII.
The Long Walk of the Navajo, also called the Long Walk to Bosque Redondo, refers to the 1864 deportation and attempted ethnic cleansing of the Navajo people by the government of the United States of America. Navajos were forced to walk from their land in what is now Arizona to eastern New Mexico to be interred at the concentration camp at Fort Sumner.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Walk_of_the_Navajo
Although my brother was a trekker, not a mountain climber, so he hiked through the lower Himalayas including the Annapurna Mountain Range, He even wanted to retire in the Philippines 🇵🇭 before cancer took him at 50. He went everywhere I would NEVER go for any reasons. He worked for Alaska Airlines as a baggage handler so he could fly anywhere, anytime…for free. Well technically, when he died he had already retired from Alaska Airlines and he was working for the Alaska Marine Highway System as an able bodied seaman. But he still got to fly for free anywhere, and at anytime. He could also name one person to have the same benefit, so I could as well…I just didn’t like to go anywhere I couldn’t take a gun and the US. Constitution with me. Cause…I’m kinda PARANOID! But just because I’m PARANOID…doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get me…know what I mean?
I just meant I’m with you on being done chasing the dangling carrot of FOIA information…most of the rest is just nutty.
I’ve said for years what you can & can’t do with FOIA but here we are….
Tired of guessing at likely scenarios and culpable individuals.
Goodbye.
Yep
I concur.
Amen!
Pretty slick how I slipped the whole Special Agent Of The Year right into the middle my True Story…right Woodsman?
I used to keep the plaque Napolitano gave me on a coffee table in my living room, just in case somebody came over. And then I would pretend I was just getting ready to hang it in the garage.
I ran out of good Irish Whiskey so I am going to follow up with Tito’s Vodka made in Austin Texas. When did Texan’s learn to make vodka? Well a sip in some coke a cola –I will have to add another shot -it is too smooth–My ancestors on my mom’s side–TJ Nichols died in the Alamo. When I was 12, my Aunt Arizona May Baxter took me and my mom to San Jacinto and to Daughters of the Confederacy to honor his death. Shit I did not know I was related to someone so famous –but supposedly we were heirs to large Spanish Land Grants in Texas and somehow my Aunt Zona wound up rich but the Gilligan family did not. Arizona May was a tall red head and even her underarm hairs stood out red–only a 12 year old would see that.
So in those days I was living –or surviving off the desert with my good mom and dad–I still love them both–they were survivors until the end of their time. We were poorer than the Guatemalans that want to come into the US but we did not know that –in fact I did not know that until I met some poor Mexicans and then realized they were richer than our family. But then I still did not think anyone was poor as the word was put out. Of course we could not afford socks and I was using tire treads cut out to re soul my brogans what we called clod hoppers. Still it was a mind game-poor is in the mind and I have always been rewarded by God and I think more correctly the Irish Goddess with DNA that few have. Longevity and a light heart that can take abuse or not and still fly like a bird in the wind.
So I have saved and been saved over these three quarters of a century of life. Saved when that fire chief put a glass jug of gasoline on a wood stove and it lit up and exploded over me at 4 years of age–Mom was the hero there–and again I returned the favor when I jumped in the Gila River at Red Rock, NM to save a drowning girl–so life equals out.
Gary is right–kindness but truth. And if you have to be a warrior then do that. It is alright to eat out of a garbage can if that is all there is–I have never had to do that or beg on a street corner–but I have given a few dollars to those that do.
After my son died in 99, I tied a cross to my back to drag it 10 miles up the mountain from Prescott Valley Flea Market to Prescott. Jeremiah–before I left looked at my puny cross and said, Tex–that would not be right– well he had the right name and had also killed a guy in his dope business back in New York –so he said and I know people he did___ so we revamped the cross to a log with the cross piece and it weighed 83 pounds. Now that was more like it–Jesus dragged it about 7, so ten was not out of order since it is uphill from Prescott Valley to Prescott proper.
At that time I was sluicing gold on the Hasayumpa and trying out some things Jesus did in this life. That was quite an experience– I was both jeered and saluted for dragging the cross–almost a ticket from the cop but a Prescott Newspaper fellow stopped as the cop was writhing a ticket–which was quickly changed to a warning and also the cop said he was only watching out for my safety. I made the Prescott news but that was not my intention. Yet I did make the journey all the way to that Little Christian Chruch that was feeding the homeless. Maybe still is–Church on the Street. I suffered three days after–I was living out–but the wood had eaten some holes in my back==but nothing like the hole from the 12 guage shot gun blast now there.
Why would I share this–I as myself– I was cursed, I was blessed I was hit by a Datsun pickup and thrown into the street (they wanted to call an ambulance –I got up and continued–) But maybe I did know a very little of the humiliation of Jesus if it is written correctly because there were some that would have hung me on the cross if they could legally have done so. I repeated this act in Phoenix and in the Minneapolis area of dragging that cross.
Now you know I am crazy–but so was Jesus. The truth never hurts anyone except those who deny it.
I was always fascinated by what were identified to me by local people as the secret Penitente trails up the mountains in the back country in New Mexico. You would have made a good Penitente Sonny. You know…except for the religion part.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penitentes_(New_Mexico)
Correction,
I should have written, “hills” not “mountains”, the trails were up hills behind some of the very small isolated Spanish villages. Places where people like me could “disappear” in muerte, so I never got curious…just fascinated.
I had those experiences while working as the Forest Law Enforcement Officer on the Santa Fe. The village of Mora, which is mentioned in the Wikipedia article,was within my patrol area.
A local U.S. Forest Service person was with me one time as a guide during an all night patrol in the mountains above Mora.
As the sun was coming up, we were looking down on the village of Mora and I remarked what a beautiful valley it was He reached over a touched my arm and said, “A beautiful valley filled with very dangerous people who will kill you bro…I don’t want you to ever forget that.”
And I never did.
Yes I knew about Mora–I was a dangerous area if you did not belong to a family of the area. But as I see the world increasing in population it also increases in danger and instability The have nots are on internet now and you might say steroids–they are seeing now in it will not be a pretty picture for the future. Global Warming is only a part of the scene when you have people like the North Korean demigod armed with nukes.
I just think how easy it was to shut this country. down by knocking down the twin towers. Imagine someone sneaking in a few of the 70 pound nukes that can take out a whole city. Certainly the CIA missed stopping 19 Arabs from doing that. So what is the guarantee they will keep out the nukes? Trump thinks the iron curtain will work to keep out the dope (dumb idea) and maybe he thinks the nukes as well–too much coast line that will allow aliens, dope, and other dangers into the country.
When the shit hits the fan I hope some of us are prepared to continue on as long as possible.
When you see government agencies cover up the true reasons deaths such at the 19 GMHS crew, then you understand you better not rely on information from that source but start realizing you will be pretty much on your own. Not that the agencies are bad but they do have some seedy people installed in some of those positions.
Technology has developed to a great point. But then common sense will always be important.
Whoops,
I misspoke because those isolated Spanish villages up north were places ANYBODY could disappear en la muerte including Spanish people who weren’t from THOSE particular villages. It wasn’t necessarily a race thing…but it was always an outsider thing.
But…I have at least a thousand stories of how both the Spanish and Native American (Pueblo) people around Santa Fe welcomed me and made my eight years on the Santa Fe National Forest some of the best and most successful years of my career.
True Story.
Part of my job as the Assistant Fire Management Officer on the Tesuque and later the Espanola District was to take the lead in organizing the many SWFF crews fielded by the Santo Domingo Pueblo, which had what I think was the largest population of all of Pueblos along the Rio Grande and it fell within our district boundaries.
So one day I was meeting with the Santo Domingo Governor at his house, which happened to be during Feast Days. Feast Days is one big festive party so his extended family were also coming and going from his large adobe house as were other people while we met to discuss our business.
So anyway…at one point the Governor’s wife sent his granddaughter over to stand in front of me to sing me a song. She was about 6, and she was all dressed up with a very pretty dress for the festival and her hair was all fixed up for the celebration.
And she had one of the biggest and brightest smiles I had ever seen because she was so proud to be called upon by her grandmother to entertain their guest with her special song that she had memorized by heart.
Everyone in the room grew quiet and she began to sing with a beautiful little voice;
One little, two little, three little Indians
Four little, five little, six little Indians
Seven little, eight little, nine little Indians
Ten little Indian girls.
Ten little, nine little, eight little Indians
Seven little, six little, five little Indians
Four little, three little, two little Indians
One little Indian girl.
And then we all laughed and clapped and told her how well she had sung her special song. And that little girl was so happy with all of the attention she was getting and her smile got even bigger and brighter.
Like I said…living in a minority/majority culture can really change your perspective on life. At least it changed mine.
Oh…and one more thing. The Santo Domingo SWFF Crews were considered by most people including me, to be the best SWFF crews out of New Mexico because they had a long and very proud tradition with their crews.
Most of the Native Americans who were on the Santa Fe Hotshots during my time as crew boss were in fact former Santa Domingo SWFF wildland firefighters. Although there were some who came from the smaller Pueblos including those that weren’t on the Rio Grande like the Laguna and Acoma Pueblos which were 100 miles or more from Santa Fe to the west.
Now that I think about it, I’m sure that I overestimated the little girls age because the whole point of the grandmothers inside joke and ironic satire was the fact that her granddaughter was too young to understand how racist, or at least racially insensitive that song really is.
And although I was included in the inside joke, I didn’t feel like I was the target of it, nor was it done at my expense, because I was an incidental guest who just happened to be there and I was “special” only because I was the only non Indian anywhere around and this was clearly something they had been working on for quite some time.
Probably not only as ironic satire and an inside joke, but as a legitimate mnemonic device as the song was originally intended to be in order to help children learn how to count.
But since I was there, the grandmother was sharing her inside satirical and ironic inside joke with me in a good natured way. I could tell because she had a real twinkle in her eye as she waited for my reaction to the song. I managed to keep my poker face on because I was there after all, to discuss official business in my U.S. Forest Service uniform that just happened to be during Frwst Days. I think that little girl must have been about four…maybe?
Correct that it was the Prescott Valley News reporter that saved me–they did an article and there was the photo of me and the cross and the cop writing the ticket. It makes me understand of Jesus being spat upon–I was only cursed– and the humiliation of being half god and half man with universal truths and taken to drag a post or cross for those universal truths.
Tomorrow I am happy because three more cancers will be removed–low from the last one I can play scare face. I have to smile–do not worry time slips away so fast that you sometimes think you are living yesterday. Do not believe the AEC nor the retardant dumpers. Jack my good friend at Yarnell–it does hurt–he has now died as have the whole block that he lived upon. You see, today, I walked my fence to see where my good dogs have been getting out–it was an effort because I was taxed in breath to make only 100 yards and put up a few bricks to keep them inside my 4 acres. Your retardant dumpers are liars of the highest order–they are depriving us of elderly life of our final years–years that wisdom abounds.
Oh, about Jack-this is atrocious–when good people die because they are guinea pigs of a retardant dump then those that do such are responsible. Good people do not deserve this–mind your intelligence–see what your are doing–only an idiot can not understand the destruction and horrible outcomes from dumping this poisonous pollution near homes. Jack’s whole block is now dead because of your actions/.
You killed my friend when you killed Jack. He died of your lung killing retardant because he was elderly and his lungs were already taxed–but his whole block of people are now dead from the effects of the retardant. If it were not for the Gods of the Irish, Sonny Gilligan would be dead too for I can barely make a hundred yards before being completely shut down. I defy your killing because I want your to realize how many lives your are guilty of destroying. So now it is coming to one third of the population of Yarnell dead because of your so called good intentions of dumping retardant all about Yarnell. Truth is you all made money and fortunes at the expense of the health and live of people of Yarnell–mostly elderly in the golden years of life but also the younger set to suffer now and later.
A short video clip of how NOT to fight a wildfire, even when you have water.
( https://www.facebook.com/152493721555105/posts/1374150249389440/ )
Reply to Woodsman post on January 23, 2019 at 11:12 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> These 2 interviews were very strange. There is obviously much
>> hidden information about the YHF that is known by many.
John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA obtained Darrell Willis’ cellphone records a LOOONG time ago ( not long after the reports came out ), and it has always been VERIFIED that Willis did not make ( or receive ) any cell calls to ( or from ) Eric Marsh in the hours just prior to the deployment.
Radio calls are still another ( unresolved ) story, but the cellphone records were ‘verified’ a LOOONG time ago ( thanks again go out to John Dougherty ).
However… there have always been at least 2 ‘squirrelly’ things about what Willis told ADOSH regarding the ( known ) cellphone calls that day…
1. Willis NEVER mentions that he tried to call Marsh AFTER the deployment, which he certainly did. His cellphone records show that call taking place at exactly 4:59 PM ( but Marsh was already dead ).
2. Willis DID talk with Marsh circa 6:00 AM that morning ( just as he told ADOSH ), but Willis told ADOSH ( FOUR separate times ) that it was Eric Marsh that called HIM that morning.
That is NOT TRUE.
Willis was either totally mis-remembering what actually happened, or ( for some reason ) was totally lying about it.
The cellphone record for that 6:00 AM call ( it was actually at 5:52 AM ) proves that it was always Willis who called Marsh… and NOT Marsh calling Willis.
Below is the formatted information from Willis’ cellphone record for HIS 5:52 AM call TO Eric Marsh.
Willis was already in Yarnell ( the ‘Origin’ of the call, according to the cellphone record ) and Marsh was still up in Prescott ( the ‘Destination’ of the call, according the cellphone record ).
————————————————————————————————–
Date: 6/30
Time: 5:52 AM
Number: 928-237-0508 ( Eric Marsh’s cellphone number )
Rate: Off-Peak
Usage Type: N&W
Origination: Yarnell AZ ( FROM: Darrell Willis’ phone, down in Yarnell )
Destination: Prescott AZ ( TO: Eric Marsh’s cellphone number, up in Prescott )
Duration: 4 minutes
————————————————————————————————–
But here is Willis telling the ADOSH investigators, FOUR separate times over TWO different interviews, that it was Eric Marsh that called HIM that morning…
From Willis’ FIRST ADOSH interview…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = SPGS2 ( and Prescott Wildland Division Chief ) Darrell Willis
—————————————————————————————————–
58 A: Granite Mountain Hotshots. Any, ah, Sunday morning the 30th, I RECEIVED a
59 phone call at about 6:00 FROM Eric, um, Marsh, the Superintendent. I was
60 already deployed on the Yarnell Hill Fire as a Structure Protection Specialist
61 and, ah, he – my assumption was that they were gonna be working on the
62 Prescott National Forest that day. ‘Cause we had a lightning bust that day, ah,
63 Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And they, ah, he ca- Eric called ME and said,
64 “Hey we just got an assignment to the Yarnell Hill Fire.” And my comment
65 back to him was, “Good. I’m down here. Maybe we’ll get to work together.”
475 A: And I don’t know what, you know, I l- after that 6 am phone call, um, that I
476 got FROM Eric, I don’t know what else…
——————————————————————————————————
From Willis’ SECOND ADOSH interview…
Q5 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = SPGS2 ( and Prescott Wildland Division Chief ) Darrell Willis
—————————————————————————————————–
685 Q5: Well, I – I’ve got a question for Darrell. Uh, Darrell, you remember when we
686 talked, uh, you had – you, uh, you – you described to us, uh, your last phone
687 call with, um, with Eric, that HE had called about 6 o’clock that morning. And
688 – and you had a conversation with him. And then, uh, recently, we got a copy
689 of the, uh, interview notes from the SAI team. And, um, and in that, you
690 described like that last call. But – but the two descriptions are a little bit
691 different. And I was wondering if you could just clear up for us, uh, what that
692 – how that last call went and – and, uh, what your recollection is at this point in
693 time…
694
695 A: Okay.
696
697 Q5: …that last call with Eric.
698
699 A: Okay, um, and I’m gonna go approximate. Ek- I don’t know if the time’s off
700 or what other – ever. It was, uh, early in the morning, I’m thinking around 6
701 o’clock in the morning. I remember getting a call FROM Eric telling me that,
702 uh, he was gonna come down, uh, that they had been assigned to the Yarnell
703 Hill Fire. I said that I thought, uh, “Oh that’s great.” And he didn’t realize
704 that I was there. And, uh, they were gonna go and pick up some groceries or
705 to get some food. And then they would be right down, heading out of town
706 there. And, uh, he re- mentioned to me that, uh, I kinda gave him a little
707 description of what I thought they would be doing. But I didn’t know, that I
708 though they would be anchoring because there wasn’t any anchor on the fire
709 at the time. And then, uh, as I remember, the last conversation was they say,
710 “Well, we love working with you, chief.” And I said, “I love working with
711 you, too, and be safe.” And that was it.
———————————————————————————————————
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I don’t know if I can handle re-examination of Cordes or Abels
>> interview for a few days now. I need to clean up after this one.
I hear ya. Going over most of this stuff just makes you want to take a shower.
FWIW… other post-tragedy media articles and interviews with Willis indicated that he felt quite a built of GUILT afterwards for his involvement in them being where they were, up at that anchor point, that day.
Some reports about that 6:00 AM ( actually 5:52 AM ) cellphone conversation he had with Marsh report that Willis basically flat-out GAVE Marsh his ‘work assignment’ DURING that phone call and told Marsh “We have GOT to get an anchor on this thing”.
That was before they even GOT to the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And ( sure enough )… that is exactly the ‘assignment’ that Marsh himself was potching for the moment they rolled into Yarnell. Exactly what Willis had said he wanted THEM to be doing.
But ( as you can see him doing above in his ADOSH interview ), Willis finally ‘admitted’ to ‘discussing’ the situation with Marsh but backs off on whether or not he simply TOLD Marsh to go down there and “get an anchor on this thing”.
And with Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini sitting right next to Willis during that second ADOSH interview… perhaps this ‘back-pedaling’ on whether Willis was ‘playing IC’ that day and giving his OWN Hotshot crew their actual assignment on the fire had more to do with LIABILITY issues than GUILT.
So at the time BOTH of these ADOSH interviews took place with Willis, there actually WOULD have been ( legally speaking ) a big difference as to whether or not Marsh called Willis or Willis called Marsh. We are talking about LIABILITY issues here, which is what everyone was VERY worried about, at that time.
But cellphone records don’t lie.
It was Willis who called Marsh that morning… and NOT the other way around as Willis kept insisting during his ADOSH interview(s).
Followup…
Even in his interview with the SAIT investigators, Willis was still saying that it was Eric Marsh who called HIM that morning ( and not the other way around, as Willis’ cellphone records prove )
It’s also in his SAIT interview notes were he says he TOLD Eric Marsh ( during that 5:52 AM call ) “We GOT to get an anchor on this thing”.
As if that was an ‘order’ and that is what HE wanted GM to do when they arrived.
That is, of course, exactly what GM set about doing when they DID arrive.
Willis also mentions the ‘guilt’ about him ‘having made this comment’ to Eric, because that was what put them all the way out there on the Weaver mountains that day… and created the situation that would later lead to their deaths.
From Darrell Willis’ SAIT interview notes…
———————————————————————————————–
0600 Eric calls and advises chief of dispatch, Chief Willis does remember telling Eric Marsh, the Granite Mtn IC: “this thing is not anchored – we got to get an anchor on this thing” , quick SA on fire and freqs. ( he seemed to have some minor “guilt about having made this comment to Eric) this was the last conversation he had with Eric or anyone else on Granite Mtn. Hotshots.
———————————————————————————————–
And now… once again… here is Willis ‘back-pedaling’ on that description of his phone call with Eric that he gave to the SAIT.
This time… it is his SECOND ADOSH interview… but Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini is now sitting right next to him…
————————————————————————————————–
706 I kinda gave him ( Eric Marsh ) a little
707 description of what I thought they would be doing. But I didn’t know, that I
708 though they would be anchoring because there wasn’t any anchor on the fire
709 at the time.
————————————————————————————————
CLASSIC back-pedal.
He knew the ADOSH investigators had the cell phone records so he couldn’t lie about the morning phone call…but he could lie about who called whom (repeatedly I might add) OR he was simply mixed up about it. I doubt that he was. He was former chief of PFD & current wildland division chief. That was his crew & he called the shots. What does the record show for Saturday evening calls from Willis to Marsh? I would find it hard to believe Willis did not play a major role in clawing GM back in from their planned days off.
If he lied about that than he absolutely establishes the high probability that he would lie about other things associated with the YHF. I will say that I see a lot of closed body language exhibited by Willis in photos and videos I have viewed of him after the fire including (but not limited to) staff rides. Closed body language may indicate someone feels threatened, has something to hide, or is being deceptive.
I would also be surprised if Willis, being the wildland division chief of PFD, former chief of said, and now in a major operational supervisory position on a different geographic area of the same fire, who admitted that communications were not a problem on the fire, admitted that he not only had GMs radio frequencies but was also monitoring them…….He never communicated not one iota with GM all day long by radio??. I personally find that very difficult to believe.
He backpedaled in the interviews and shows me that he has information he is withholding. He’s simply not telling the whole story. My opinion based upon both empirical and strong circumstantial evidence….
The preponderance of evidence suggests that he is full of shit…and unfortunately, he is not alone.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 24, 2019 at 9:41 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> What does the record show for Saturday evening calls from Willis to Marsh?
There were two times, on Saturday, June 29, 2013 when Darrell Willis used his cellphone to talk with Eric Marsh, on HIS cellphone.
Willis called Marsh ( 928-237-0508 ) at 11:47 AM, and they spoke for 1 minute.
Later, Marsh called Willis, at 6:11 PM, and they spoke for 2 minutes.
That was about 2 hours before Marsh first got the word that Granite Mountain was being ‘ordered up’ for Yarnell the next day, and about 3 hours before Darrell Willis got a similar notification to come to Yarnell… so it’s unlikely their 6:11 PM cellphone conversation had anything to do with Yarnell.
Willis himself told ADOSH, in his first interview, that he had dispatched to Yarnell late Saturday night on the assumption that Granite Mountain would still be working lightning-strike fires on the Prescott National Forest on Sunday.
Apparently ( based on this testimony ) Willis wasn’t even aware that Granite Mountain had already been ‘released’ from the Skull Valley assignment late Saturday afternoon and had already ‘scattered to the winds’ because Sunday was supposed to be their DAY OFF.
Willis further tried to tell ADOSH that he was totally unaware Granite Mountain had been ‘recalled’ on Saturday night, and were going to be at Yarnell, until he called Marsh’s cellphone at 5:52 AM Sunday morning.
Here’s what Willis said ( to ADOSH ) about all that…
———————————————————————————
47 Q1: Darrell, what we’ve been, ah, trying to do is – is have folks, ah, start out from
48 when they got ordered for this particular incident and then walk us through
49 that up until, ah, you actually arrive in Yarnell and – and, ah, and then we’ll go
50 from there I guess. If you could take us back to.
51
52 A: Well I – I can tell you that on – on Sunday morning if I – if I look back, ah, I –
53 they are, um, they report directly to me so whenever they get an assignment
54 they let me know either via text or, ah, telephone call.
55
56 Q1: And you’re talking about Granite Mountain.
57
58 A: Granite Mountain Hotshots. Any, ah, Sunday morning the 30th, I received a
59 phone call at about 6:00 from Eric, um, Marsh, the Superintendent. I was
60 already deployed on the Yarnell Hill Fire as a Structure Protection Specialist
61 and, ah, he – my assumption was that they were gonna be working on the
62 Prescott National Forest that day. ‘Cause we had a lightning bust that day, ah,
63 Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And they, ah, he ca- Eric called me and said,
64 “Hey we just got an assignment to the Yarnell Hill Fire.” And my comment
65 back to him was, “Good. I’m down here. Maybe we’ll get to work together.”
66 And his comments and this is the last words I had with Eric that day were,
67 “We love to work with you Chief. Look forward to seeing ya.” And my last
68 words to him was, “Be safe.”
———————————————————————————
Again… notice that Willis is trying to make it sound like Eric Marsh called him to ‘report directly to me whenever they get an assignment’… and that this was what Eric was doing circa 6:00 AM Sunday.
But ( as has already been established ) Eric didn’t call Willis.
Willis’ cellphone record shows that HE was the one who called Marsh that morning.
As for WHEN Granite Mountain actually got ‘ordered up’…
It was right around 8:00 PM on Saturday night, almost 2 hours after Willis and Marsh spoke on the phone.
From the “I-Disptach Records.pdf” document in the SAIT evidence record.
An email from Kenan Jaycox, the SWCC Center Manager in 2013,, to SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley, showing GM order/fulfill times…
——————————————————————————–
From: Jaycox, Kenan R -FS
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 4:52 PM
To: Dudley, Mike -FS
Subject: SWCC Granite Mountain Information
Hi Mike, (per ROSS auto-documentation) 3 Type 1 Crew Requests were placed with us the evening of 6/29. One order was placed to Flagstaff Dispatch for Blue Ridge IHC, another was placed to Phoenix Dispatch for Arroyo Grande IHC and filled early the next morning 6/30, and the other we asked ADC to retrieve and fill with Granite Mountain. To give you an idea on timeframes the order for Granite was placed at 2009 ( 8:09 PM ) on 6/29 and we asked them to retrieve at 2015 ( 8:15 PM ), and the crew order was filled with Granite at 2054 ( 8:54 PM ).
Kenan Jaycox
Center Manager
Southwest Coordination Center
———————————————————————————
That timeframe for the GM order generally matches other records in the Dispatch logs.
Such as…
——————————————————————————–
06/29/2013 20:10:07 PMB SWCC
FRANK PLACING ORDER FOR GRANITE MOUNTAIN IHC.
——————————————————————————–
In his SAIT interview, Willis told them he didn’t hear from Russ Shumate down at Yarnell until 9:00 PM on Saturday night…
——————————————————————————–
Russ Shumate ( ICT3 at Yarnell ) called Chief Willis at about 9pm on 6/29 to come help with the Yarnell fire. 2230 on the 29th he arrives at the fire.
———————————————————————————
TO ANY CONGRESSMAN OR OFFICIAL OF GOOD INTENTIONS AND CLOUT WHO MIGHT READ AND UNDERSTAND THE GOOD EFFORTS OF PEOPLE ON INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA —
–With the excellent revelations given here by WTKTT, we certainly hope our friends in Idaho get this information forwarded to the Senators interested in the deficiencies in the Forest Service system of fire suppression and incidences and where Yarnell is the prime example of a mass killing of wild land fire fighters. The real reason has for those deaths has been redacted, hushed and hidden from the public eye and treated as an accident and just a job hazard to be expected in the wild land fire fighting occupation. Nothing could be farther from the truth–this was no accident and there are reasons and people responsible for those deaths.
Now with the expenditure of hundreds of millions of dollars just on a few fires in Montana and Idaho that is almost minor when compared to the recent California fires and how easily people active in the wild land fire professions have been willing to redact, hide information, deny public access to such information including enforcement of mum orders and false representations of incidents- it is clearly time for a Congressional Investigation.
I can witness the struggle that people have had to get to the facts of what really happened during just the Yarnell Debacle. I have seen Joy Collura struggle with getting information and having to go time and again back and forth just to get FOIA reports over delays of more than a year and expenditures of personal money she could barely spare. These reports should be easily obtainable yet we see even retired wild land fire bosses of high esteem–RTS a good example–having to hire lawyers and at a costly expense get FOIA records so they can make a professional assessment of what happened at the Yarnell Wild Fire Incident of June, 2013.
I have physically sat and witnessed an interview that is recorded of a Fire Chief actually lying to citizen Joy Collura about events and his crew’s participation in the Yarnell fire of June 30,2013. The same department refused her access to FOIA information in his department despite his knowing of the laws requiring that such information be available to public and backed by FOIA laws. Her struggle and others that thirst for the information and facts of the Yarnell incident is an obvious attempt to hide the facts from public and professionals who are interested in the workings of the Forest Service and State Agencies associated with them. Apparently the Forest Service and State can not stand embarrassment for their deficiencies and are willing to take extreme measures to cover up any information that might taint their reputations.
It is for these reasons that we the public and other professionals who are continually denied access to the facts of these incidences would demand a Congressional Investigation into the matters related to withholding information from the public.
When hundreds of millions of dollars that constitutes only a small part of the billions of public money being spent on wild fire fighting, then obviously the public funding such expenditure has every right to immediate and respectful access to information related to the use of those monies. Yet a cursory look at how the State of Arizona and its Forest Service Branch and even its local Fire Departments such as Peeples Valley and Yarnell will alarm you about how difficult it is to get any factual records from these people. An interview with Joy Collura, RTS and any other citizen or wild land fire expert will verify that statement. And that is a shame when these people are public servants and have duty to report to the people who pay for their public service.
The facts scream for a Congressional Investigation for a number of reasons. Number one would be how these public servants are so willing to lie to the public and treat people as if they have no right to knowing their actions and information recorded about these wild fires. They are willing to delay and avoid producing records and even willing to cause people to hire lawyers to obtain records. After all if you sue them, it is that forest service that pays the fine, not the individuals withholding the information. Yet if these same people are put before a Congressional Hearing on the matter, they will produce the truth. As you can see they know from such things as the recent Roger Stone incident that you do not lie to Congress or treat them as inferiors as we saw that has been done with public when they desire records by FOIA.
The persons involved in moving toward getting a Congressional Hearing are people of high respect–they have served the country in high capacity and position. We as citizens have high regard for their efforts to represent us in getting to a proper and truthful investigation. We know with so many of the Trump associates being investigated that it may take some time, yet we will patiently wait for this necessary action to get at the truth.
There are five years of ongoing discussion about the tragic handling of the Yarnell Wild Fire of June 2013. Nine out of ten of the people attempting to make sense out of the Yarnell Debacle are professionals with long histories in the fire fighting community. They have been denied access to records and information to the point that some have spent large sums of their retirements on legal fees attempting to get at records and information so they can properly evaluate what went on that killed the 19 young fire fighters known as the Granite Mountain Hot Shot Crew. They know about smoke but never imagined the smoke screen that they would have to navigate through to get any kind of factual information. They have been willing to expend their time, monies and expertise because of their concerns of the welfare of future young wild land fire fighters. Their expertise freely offered is invaluable to the wild land fire fighting community and future welfare of its young and novice fire fighters. They do not want more repeats of the Yarnell killing, and only want to contribute on factual basis. That demands that records be released to them in a respectful and timely fashion. To deny that access to such people is to deny some young fire fighters a safer occupation. We must involve these experience men and informed public –It will save lives of America’s finest young souls..
Tex Gilligan
2:12 PM (1 minute ago)
to Joy
I have been sawing away getting the sink installed into that table. My hunger got me down so I am on my lunch break–I had potatoes roasting oven style above the wood stove but they need some more so I opted to open a can of green beans topped with some butter–damn good especially when hungry. Yes I almost took a picture early. My favorite is Bear–that chubby little fellow comes right out when I come out and heads my way. He is the largest and looks like a barrel so I might have named him Barrel but he looks like a little bear so Bear is fine. The next one behind him is a white one almost as big and friendly. They got their groceries a bit late since I was writing on IM. As soon as they get their bellies full they take a nap–right now still are so as soon as that wears off I will see about a photo.
Sounds like some of the fellows are having some bad health issues. Well I pray they do not suffer more than necessary to get well. It is hard recovering from these things–and somehow I managed without outside help –it was offered but by the time they could assist I was too much improved to accept. I did ask if they could help clean my house and put up some dry wall–no way only help me to the toilet and out of the bath tub which thing was unnecessary once I left the eagle eyes of the trauma unit.
I think this year might bring some closure on the Yarnell situation but there will be more like it so it is an ongoing affair. My own feeble efforts are toward the Yarnell thing since it was up close and personal. We would be wrong to hide our heads in the sand since we both were witnesses and you especially not only witnessed the situation but have spent countless hours researching and interviewing anyone even closely associated with the fire. So your input equals or is greater that just about anyone involved with solving the murder mystery of 19 young souls at Yarnell.
I will post this email to you Joy–I am forever grateful to have worked alongside you and am good testimony to your abilities to get information despite all the roadblocks the Forest Service. State and other individuals have but before you. I say watch your back because people guilty of hiding the truth and putting up roadblocks also smell of treachery.
ON my impression of Willis when I met him at one of the memorial services for the GMHS. He is a man who you could easily like–and I think he was beaten down with a great weight on his shoulders. I felt he was a good person trapped in a situation he either had to conform or loose much and he certainly had much to loose in this one if he went with the truth. He had to go along with the agenda that this was an accident with no blame situation whether he wanted to or not.
It would be a good thing to be a Catholic in these instances–some sort of catharsis by telling someone your secrets that heavily burden the heart. Otherwise some heavy shots of Jack Daniels and a lack luster bar keep might make a good alternative. Much is learned when a little booze loosens the tongue so the best interview with him would be when he visits the bar if he does. With all his God talk I wonder.
What I could not understand though was when he testified for Amanda against Joy under that corrupt Judge. His Christian believes were stretched heavily there. I will say that Amanda had some hooks on individuals–and could make them do things they did not really want to do. Amazing the abilities some people have to manipulate others.
Looks like Verizon is at it again–I pay full price for mobile hot spot unlimited–but they shut the hot spot off at random and generally two to five times during my post. So I try to copy so I do not loose the post. Sometimes that works and sometimes not. So there is a certain hassle.
I know what you mean about the Federal Firearms Act and dealing with suppressed fire arms, full auto, short barrels and the like. I did years ago have a FFL and blued guns where I had a good set up. But the problems of it all of keeping records, etc. I have since just let that lapse. During the Vietnam War it took 24,000 rounds for a kill–well that was how much ammo was shot per dead man. Of course the snipers did a lot better with their kills.
Gary that 6.8 Grendill sounds good if you can spice it on the M-4 and apperantly the government is looking at using it. Usually when they look at a round it has to be with some good reasons. I will have to look at that one. I had been OK with a single shot .223 for rabbit hunts. With a broken up clavicle I am able to shoot that .223–but a little 22 is ok for rabbit anyway. That M-14 impressed me–but then I was used to a 30-30 and in this desert country I did good even out to 500 yards by using a hell of an oversight at that distance. Deer are easy to kill if you hit them right. My son and his neighbor wanted me to join them for a hunt on Deer and Oryx when the season comes up. I declined and he has my .300 Win Mag that I was able to punch a hole in a one inch circle with. Fluted barrel but and Nikon Scope and unusual to get one that accurate with factory ammo. I reload so never was impressed with factory ammo but guns and ammo have improved in recent years. The little bolt action .223 he took would print a 1 inch as well and that was a cheap $300 dollar Remington.
But I think that 6.8 is a defense weapon then, not so much for hunting. I enjoy the AR because of those light kicking 223 rounds. I haven’t gotten the nerve up to try a 30-06 or a 12 guage yet. I am not sure how well I have healed up–but do feel pretty good. I was able to wrangle a couple railroad ties in and cut some others up to make up my kitchen sink. I managed to get the cold water and the drain hooked up today. I look like hell dragging things around with my left arm–but that sink is solid and damn nice looking. Those old ties are about 100 years old so the creosote has evaporated so there is not smell or oil problem and one thing because there are three legs on each end of sawed off ties, nobody is going to pick the thing up and run off with it. I like that kind of rustic thing but it looks good too since I put a nice top on it–and it is exactly 8 foot long with sink in the middle.
Well the .223 is good coyote gun as well but I quit shooting and trapping coyote. I think the damn things are almost human in smarts–maybe smarter than some people I know. When I was trapping was the time I was hauling wood and doing the gun bluing. So when this coyote came up and shit on my trap I felt guilt about my trapping. They are survivors and I have to respect that since I know how hard that can be.
.300 blackout is not a military round….short range use only….subsonic….good for seal team close-up work….won’t penetrate body armor or kevlar helmets
Are you hunting pigs quietly nowadays, Gary?
Joy,
I do not hunt because as everyone knows, I abhor violence in any form and therefore I simply can’t kill anything. Furthermore…I am a vegetarian except I do eat beef 🐄 , pork 🐖 poultry 🐓 and some fish 🐠, but I really don’t like fish 🐟 very much.
I do however, understand that violence is necessary to not only process the beef, pork, poultry and fish I do eat, but it is required to neutralize the enemies of our country. Therefore…I indirectly employ highly trained and specialized teams of professionals to accomplish these objectives for me since I am incapable of performing those tasks for myself.
I am also self aware enough to realize that by implementing these policies in my everyday life, I am not only being disingenuous, but I am a perfect example of the duality of man as best exemplified by Private Joker (played by Matthew Modine) in the director Stanley Kobrick’s 1987 film 🎞, “Full Metal Jacket”.
In this movie about the Vietnam War during the 1968 Tet Offensive and the Battle for Que, Private Joker, demonstrates his distain not only for the war, but for the duality of man by wearing a Peace Symbol on his flak jacket and by writing ✍️, “Born To Kill” on his helmet.
In the following scene, Private Joker is questioned by a superior officer about not only his “Spirit” button, but the words on written on his helmet;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KMEViYvojtY
Pogue Colonel : Now answer my question or you’ll be standing tall before the man.
Private Joker : I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir.
Private Joker : The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir.
Now…you know I don’t like to discuss bullet ballistics with you because much like Donny in the Big Lebowski, I am out of my element.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AS8X2Qp_6aA
But…I believe you are specifically referring to the .300 ACC Blackout subsonic round and you may not be aware there is also a supersonic cartridge as well. And even though the supersonic .300 ACC Blackout may not be ideal for a battle rifle, it is designed to achieve ballistics similar to the 7.62×39mm Soviet cartridge in an AR-15 while using standard AR-15 magazines at their normal capacities.
In addition, the same rifle can be used to shoot either the .300 ACC Blackout or the standard NATO 5.56 or civilian .223 ammunition by simply switching out the barrels. Which is far more economical than buying an entire new carbine, plus the all important manual of arms remains the same.
And therefore the same rifle, or pistol, if you go with the SIG Sauer Rattler or similar “pistol” (or a short barrel rifle if you want to hassle with the SBR ATF NFA paperwork) can be used in either the surpressed or unsuppressed mode of fire simply by selecting either sonic or subsonic rounds and of course by attaching a silencer to your firearm in the event you don’t want to here a loud bang 💥 when you discharge your weapon.
These configurations would be ideal for home defense if either noise suppression isn’t a factor, or if you don’t want to wake up anyone else in your house while you dispatch the intruder. And even though I do abhor violence in any form, I do think I have been sufficiently indoctrinated, trained and conditioned that I could use violence to defend myself or someone else with a firearm if the threat level justified that level of aggressive response based on the “Threat Level Matrix.”
Now…please stop pestering me by challenging me to defend my positions. I have a lot of important work to do on my tome. And you are interrupting me which is problematic because Sonny is looking forward to reading my magnificent literary work even if you are not.
And tick tock, I don’t know how much time I have left on this earth 🌎 before my veil of tears 😭 will finally be lifted, I’m not Sonny you know! And I believe you are well aware of how sensitive and vulnerable I am to criticism or these continual attacks by you and your pet monkey🐒…RTS. Whether it is you or Bob…RTS just can’t take me on Mano a Mano because he is a known slacker!
We have covered this whole .300 ACC Blackout controversy before, and except for the Serbian Special Forces, no one think your oddball 6.5 Grendel is the next great thing. So.get over it girl 👩🏻🦳!
Oh…and one more thing. Although I did have to go to U.S. District Court one (1) time to defend myself in New Mexico against a bogus accusation of the “use of excessive force”, it was only because there was like…eight (8) of them and only two of us in a very remote area. So we did have to point our M-4’s at them and prone them out on the ground in an aggressive manner.
But…I followed my training and I never put my finger on the trigger or disengaged the safety. So I think those accusations were greatly exaggerated and the U.S. District Court Judge finally ruled in our favor and dismissed the charges. So…
so that one doesn’t really count.
And there was one other time I can remember right now. One time while executing a search warrant, a German Shepard guard dog went to bite me and I put the barrel of my rifle in its mouth. The lady that was there thought I was going to shoot the dog so she threw herself on him. But it was her fault my CAR-15 was pointed at her back, so those deeply flawed charges were eventually dismissed as well. And once again, my finger wasn’t on the trigger nor did I disengage the safety. And those were the only times I was accused of “using excessive force” so…
Well…now that I think about it, oh never mind…I abhor violence in any form, that is the point we should be focused on at this time. All of those other unfortunate incidents are all water under the bridge that we can laugh about now.
Have you GTS’d lately Gary?
6.5 Grendel even out of a 12″ barrel has superior velocity and energy over 7.62×39 and .300 blackout with 16″ barrels
7.62×39 and .300 blackout both drop like a brick after 250 yards…
.300 Blackout….rainbow trajectory….no bueno in a military rifle
6.5mm grendel….or 6.5 creedmore…or 6.5PRC is the future
but the Army will just wait for caseless ammo to improve before any changes are made
Silly Gary…you don’t make money in the stock market by panicking and selling due to a correction.
For any kids here…there is no such thing as Grendel stock anyway…your joke doesn’t make any sense…(cents) except you love love to tease me.
Sonny is excellent shot with a rifle and me….both…Sonny shot that one guy in the neck…how far was it Sonny? Man…that was some rough times…I am out hiking solo out by his opal mine area and on the radio I try to tell Sonny he is surrounded but all he is saying he cannot hear me or the content while they all were moving in from all sides…it was hard to watch so I am trying to go in and I hear bullets whizzing and I drop low and I will let Sonny share his side but the sherrif was Sonny’s next door neighbor and you cannot make this stuff up…some parts of Arizona I would not raise a kid or pet…not even pet monies..named Bob or RTS…hee hee
I am sure when RTS gets back from his DEALIO he ain’t gonna like being labelled with me first off versus being a pet of mine…ugh…
But hey if it helped you to say it…its all gravy
Here is a reply to Joy who does often keep me abreast of the Yarnell situation:
Tex Gilligan
2:12 PM (1 minute ago)
to Joy
I have been sawing away getting the sink installed into that table. My hunger got me down so I am on my lunch break–I had potatoes roasting oven style above the wood stove but they need some more so I opted to open a can of green beans topped with some butter–damn good especially when hungry. Yes I almost took a picture early. My favorite is Bear–that chubby little fellow comes right out when I come out and heads my way. He is the largest and looks like a barrel so I might have named him Barrel but he looks like a little bear so Bear is fine. The next one behind him is a white one almost as big and friendly. They got their groceries a bit late since I was writing on IM. As soon as they get their bellies full they take a nap–right now still are so as soon as that wears off I will see about a photo.
Sounds like some of the fellows are having some bad health issues. Well I pray they do not suffer more than necessary to get well. It is hard recovering from these things–and somehow I managed without outside help –it was offered but by the time they could assist I was too much improved to accept. I did ask if they could help clean my house and put up some dry wall–no way only help me to the toilet and out of the bath tub which thing was unnecessary once I left the eagle eyes of the trauma unit.
I think this year might bring some closure on the Yarnell situation but there will be more like it so it is an ongoing affair. My own feeble efforts are toward the Yarnell thing since it was up close and personal. We would be wrong to hide our heads in the sand since we both were witnesses and you especially not only witnessed the situation but have spent countless hours researching and interviewing anyone even closely associated with the fire. So your input equals or is greater that just about anyone involved with solving the murder mystery of 19 young souls at Yarnell.
I will post this email to you Joy–I am forever grateful to have worked alongside you and am good testimony to your abilities to get information despite all the roadblocks the Forest Service. State and other individuals have but before you. I say watch your back because people guilty of hiding the truth and putting up roadblocks also smell of treachery.
Joy the name of that guy was Robert Long and yes I was intending to take him out and he did catch a bullet from a 7×54 Russian round at 600 yards. That old Russian rifle was open sights but accurate–I tried to run him down with my vehicle but his quad in that rough country disappeared.
But let it be understood those guys had killed a man not too long before this by shooting him in the back of the head. Robert was and probably still is a somewhat leader in the doper set and some kind of loose gang that operates out of Dolan Springs. Three guys had visited me a few nights before when I thought it was my son. I lived alone some three miles away from Dolan Springs on ten acres and the nearest neighbor was a mile away. I knew about the killing they had done and knew the brother of the man that was killed. He was hoping he could get hold of one of their old pickups because he believed they had hauled his body in that truck and he hoped it would have some blood dripped in some crevice to the prove who done it. The Sheriff Department had refused to follow up on the murder but had that mans skeleton found some time later in a vacant lot near Dolan Springs.
Well that night they had come to rob me but I had come out with a 30-30 Winchester in hand and was ready for battle–maybe Irish style cause I sleep naked and this was about 11 PM and considering I usually would bed down when my chickens do.
The next day I tracked the pickup since they had left the road and in the 4×4 crossed country–and of course the tracks went straight to Longs–the pickup was down the street after that to the other rats residence.
Well this guy and his friends were all dangerous as you remember the one I stopped on a motorcycle casing my place you were able to trace as an ex con. He was one of the set–was it Tim that was involved with Long and had actually been with long that night they showed up at my place. Well that time they got that truck in reverse and spun around to exit. I fired a warning shot above the truck to get them going–I had recognized that ford 10 cylinder job from Longs place and it was their criminal activity get away vehicle. Anyway they saw I meant business and wasn’t the helpless old man they had previously killed for his social security check. I learned that part from his brother who told me his brother has just cashed his check the night he disappeared and Long and his buddies whom the man named were the last to see that fellow. He had some sort of alzheimers setting in and somehow was sick enough he would associate with such trash.
So you see I was next on their list. A pickup had burned with a body in it not long before this–and we knew someone who was also involved with these people and when I asked him if he was involved in that he did not give a straight answer-=-but had warned me to take care of the Long bunch some time before. Dolan Springs is a very small town and there was only one watering hole if you were not a veteran–I still have a life time membership there at the American Legion and more often would quench my thirst there but at the Last Chance Bar they often had good music and some good singers at Karioke. So everyone knew everyone there and I suppose I was a type of odd ball since I lived out of town.
So you see I was next on the list but they were hoping to rob me before. Peggy Long who I helped since she had very little and was keeping 9 dogs–heaven knows how many times I bought food for those dogs–but she would go hungry herself before her dogs. She was the ex of Robert–he had attempted to burn her and her kids up on a dope binge and did manage to pour gasoline all over her and though she escaped, he managed to burn the home. That was when they lived in Kingman. Long had done 10 years for that and now was a Dolan resident.
Your experiences were real and the real life at Dolan Springs was not something you expected–and I did not either when I moved there. That was one of the reasons I decided to leave the area–It was just too much trouble dealing with the dopers there.
There was a lot of thievery there and I sometimes think the main Kingman Office was glad to keep those dopers in that small town of Dolan Springs. Don’t get it wrong there were a lot of good people living there as well and likely many of them did not even know of what lurked there. Peggy told me that Robert was an expert locksmith and would enter peoples places and take things they would not miss for a long time. He would then lock it back up and no one was the wiser he had been there. I believed her since he would sometimes come around her place to get things from her–he especially liked to steal her pain meds.
Peggy Died a terrible death of cancer at 54. She broke out in black cancers that looked like spider webs all about her body. The doctors gave her two weeks to live but she lived for a month. I got both her service dogs which were St. Bernards–and kept them–I was there at her funeral in Chloride where only her Mom, Daughter and a preacher attended. I did make her a gravestone–and was saddened by her death.
Some people are brought into this world to try us to see if our hearts are in the right place. With all her infirmities–she could not speak and suffered balance disorder –the dogs kept her up when she was in trouble. People treated her like a pariah yet she was truly an intelligent person that the world had a hard time to show consideration to. Some were kind to her–but I often saw that people had a distaste for people disabled in her way. Maybe because I understand how it is hard for people to communicate with me due to hearing loss, then it was hard for people, even doctors to be patient with a person who had to write everything–and in a script that was hard to read.
Well wouldn’t you know that Long went to the Sheriff on me. I was actually in Dolan looking for Long to let him know the next round his head would be missing. I did not know I had wounded him so there he was on the Main Drag talking to the Sheriff Deputy. The Deputy waved me over and had Long stand away while the Deputy spoke to me. Long was pointing at me and crossing his hands as if I were going to Jail–he had a towell wrapped around his neck. Well the Deputy said to me you screwed up–didn’t hurt that guy too bad. He said now do not say a word to incriminate yourself if you do not want to but this man came at me with a Machete once before and I thought I was going to have to kill him. The Deputy said go on and I will cool this guy off.
That was the last I heard of Long but knew I had to be on guard there all the time. Not a way to live since I love good friends and a peaceful life.
Now you see why I say to cordon Dolan Springs off and make it a Doper Safe Haven. It already is but severaly meth labs were put out of business there while I was living in the area. I think the population is 300–now 299 with me amiss.
And so you know more of that story–It happened more than ten years ago so an old war story–That guy had parked his quad some thousand yards from my place and was sneaking up on me–I would not have known it due to my hearing loss down to 10% available, but my dogs alerted me and by seeing the direction they were barking I spied him. I did fire two warning shots below him and they kick up a lot of dust with that Russian round but I could see he was not at all impressed and kept coming my way–now that is scary–maybe he was on dope but his intentions to be sneaking up were not that good. It was then I saw I had better settle the matter since he had something in hand and I believed what might have been a gun.
Joys story of the machine gun are true–and when she called the Sheriff on that it was not until Sunday–the next day that they arrived. You see you knew you better defend youself because I lived in such a difficult area to reach by dirt road no Sheriff expected to make a call very quickly. I am glad my dog did not shoot me there in that area–I would have certainly never been rescued–but you would understand why the Department of the Sheriff was so slow to respond there if you lived there.
To their credit, they did move a substation to the school itself when some guy came into the school there in a ski mask and badly pistol whipped a teacher who was giving his kid a bad time. Well they never caught the guy nor did they figure out which kid the teacher was beaten for. Deputy Thompson was my neighbor but he lived three miles away to get to his place–but only three quarters of a mile with a mountain between our residences.
Unless you are a doper, criminal or a nice citizen who does not know better, I would not recommend living in the Dolan Springs area proper. It has been over ten years since I have been there but I do not intend to go back.
I deeded that ten acres over to my Youngest Son Jaime–he sold it for five grand–well it was worth much more –or was it. Real Estate people do not always let you know the low down of things.
Joy,
You’re right, I don’t really have any stock, I have all of my money invested in Jeeps. And there are a lot of things about me RTS doesn’t like, hasn’t liked and will never like about me. We are two really different people, although we are also like two peas in a pod. Which is just one more inexplicable dichotomy, contradiction, and wonderful thing all at once about wildland firefighters.
I actually met a lot of people just like RTS in both FIRE and law enforcement over the decades who didn’t think I could do the job because I was too fat. I always got the last laugh though because I was always the last man standing…after they were long gone.
IF YOU WAIT BY THE RIVER LONG ENOUGH, THE BODIES OF YOUR ENEMIES WILL FLOAT BY.” ― SUN TZU
And I don’t believe that anyone will physically hurt either you or me, I think there are some people who have wish they could, but they won’t. I can sympathize with them because I have known a lot of people who I left alive just because it’s against the law to kill them.
But…I do think I will eventually be sued by any number of people I am going to roast alive (metaphorically speaking) in my tome. There will also be some heroes, you and Sonny for starters, but those heroes will also include JD, Frisby, Tarr and Bob because he helped build OUR 🏠 HOUSE (hotshot) and people like RTS and I stood on his shoulders.
And as I have written to you before when you asked me what I thought about RTS? I told you RTS is a hero of mine and I real American Hero because he played a key role of moderinizing and professionalizing hotshot crews while elevativating the profession to be much more than just a tribe of cowboys and Indians riding hard for the brand and shooting from the hip.
It is a profession where once bitter enemies who killed each other on first sight not that long ago in our history can now all ride together with a common purpose like the Santa Fe Hotshots did together to go fight FIRE.
Some of the direct descendants of the Spanish Conquistadors, who at times massacred the Native American people, who at times massacred the Spanish people as they did during the Pueblo Revolt, rode with descendants of war criminals like General Kit Carson who massacred everyone who got in his road to glory and who was guilty mass genocide, especially of Native American people.
I have been told the Navajo word for white people means, “Those we fight.” And yet I sat with a 90 % Navajo audience to watch the movie (Windtalkers) in Farmington about Navajo Code Talkers during WWII. That movie showed the primary purpose of the code talkers white escort was to execute him rather than let him be captured.
They also laughed at things that made me cringe because they were so overtly racist. Like I said, living in a minority/majority culture can really change your outlook on “BUILD THAT WALL” “AND WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR IT?” “MEXICO!!!”
I have seen photos and videos of Naturalized U.S. Citizens who stood in line for decades. None of them are going to pick our fruits and vegetables either, nope…none of them. Either Sonny nor I want to pay $10.00 for a basket of cherries.
Who should we build the wall to keep out…us, my ancestors? Navajoes were also invaders who took and then occupied their land from the Pueblo people. It’s complicated…but all of us put our traditional differences aside and came together as one…the Santa Fe Hotshots.
And none of the Native Americans on the crew ever mentioned the cruelty of Juan de Oñate y Salazar who was responsible for the Acoma Massacre and we had young men from Acoma and many other Pueblos on our crews. Although in 1998 I was back in New Mexico when someone cut off one of the feet on his statue as retaliation for his cutting one foot off every young man over 25 who survived the massacre.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_de_O%C3%B1ate
Like I said, life is complicated and if I don’t get sued for this book I am working on…then a lot of people I am writing about just aren’t keeping up with current events. Either that or they are betting I will never get the damn thing done, and they might be right?
And I do want to make it easy for their process servers to find me. Process servers are just working stiffs to who make a few bucks for every one they had out. No sense in making their lives and harder than they already are. I am going to do my very best to roast all of the usual suspects alive…just like our crew got roasted alive.
Anyway Joy…I want them to focus on me…not you. I am their worst nightmare, or at least I am trying to be that for them. The threat level you pose to their continued happiness is non existent to the threat I pose to their “Big Lie” I hope. They should leave you alone and mess with me instead because…HERE I AM…in a static position.
Do me a favor and post what I wrote to you about RTS a long time ago.
Gary, I Certainly am waiting on that book–and you have good posts to read as well. If I were not so banged up I might after all have thought to try wild land fire fighting after all the education I have received here on IM. I hope the young fire fighters read these posts–pearls of wisdom here for that work and how to survive in it.
I suppose you are referring to the ability to switch the AR-15 from 223 to the .300 you mention by switching uppers on the AR-15 lower. That can be done in a heart beat–but why a new round if it is the same ballistics as the 7.62×39 AK round? Is that .300 the same diameter .308 as the AK round? That 7.62 round is pretty good since it is about the same punch as a 30-30 round.
I think likely the best round if you can handle the kick is the M-14 in the .308 Winchester if you talk civilian. It is only a hundred feet or so under a 30-06 round and good for 1000 yard shooting. But in the real world with people that never used rifles, the .223 would do fine–I do not know how many gooks fell to that round but many I would guess–maybe more than the 7.62×51 Nato of the M-14.
If Trump really wanted to make this country greater-(it is already great ahead of him and his talk)–then he would require every household that is not a doper or criminal set up to have a weapon such as the AR-15 in the home. He would further require that people become familiar and learn to shoot and use the damn thing. Something that should be locked in a gun cabinet but available with about 300 rounds of ammo. That would be a deterrent to not only criminals but outsider who might want to invade this country. Switzerland has that type law in effect and even Hitler, who would have loved to had all the gold and other values stashed there, thought that it would be too costly a situation to attack early on. Of course the mountain ranges also protect it but paratroopers could have invaded. Add to that the Russians that invaded Norway–those crack shots took out six Russians to one of their own–simply because people in those countries have rifles and are well trained on how to use them.
Yes I know Aquarius–we are the world–and how Nationalism is a crime these days.
Reality is a different situation when you look at how things are done in the Arabian and African countries. Don’t kid yourself–they would dearly love to clean house in America and genocide is quite rampant in those countries even going on very recently. Old Jesus was correct in Luke when he said you ought to sell your cloak and buy a sword. Hopefully we won’t have to kill someone in our own defense or especially for the ones we love but it is wise to have a deterrent handy.
I understand Gary–I am not much of a meat eater either and I don’t enjoy killing even rabbits. But the chemicalized dog food that the poor dogs do everything not to eat requires a feast for them. I see the excitement in people to go hunting but I do not have that. I had to survive as a youngster even into my high school years by taking game. Killing for the fun does not appeal to me nor do I want dead carcasses hanging about my walls. Something I hate to see is elephant killing–seems like a horrible crime to destroy such magnificent creatures.
And back to the subject of Willis–He suffered heavily at the loss of those men and from the beginning I always believed he had something to do with ordering them down in the canyon. However he has selective memory I notice and all we can do is fill in the blanks. And there are plenty of those–so we wonder why the FS and State agencies not open up all so that his name if it can be cleared would be–if not then we are talking about the lives of 19 young men–a disgrace should the truth continue to be hidden through redactions and threats to careers.
Another thing we need to know is what the secret ingredients in the retardant are.
I do not trust people that redact and hide so much to tell me oh these are good for your health. Automatically, I know the main ingredient is a lung killer–so why hide the rest of the poison.
To give an example, the black lung has had a big outbreak of over 2000 cases. The big coal companies had it whipped with new methods so they said. It turns out they are working thin seams of coal and getting the silica dust along with the coal. The companies knew the situation but money comes before health of the worker with those big organizations. I hope the victims get well paid–young men in their 40’s now unable to even hike across a Wal Mart parking lot. Your FS and State want to keep their budget to pay the victims of these fires down as well. They recently spent over a hundred million on just two wild fires if you read that Harper’s article–yet screw you wild land fire fighter–you better have your own health insurance and if you get killed your family might get enough out of them to last a year. Talk about sacrificing to the Fire demigod–and Yarnell was a prime example.
Sonny,
Yes…in order to meet the military specifications for the need for a new cartridge to eventually replace the NATO 5.56, which most experts have always doubted, they must be able to replace the current barrel in an M-4 in less than 10 minutes without the use of tools. This allows the military to dual purpose the hundreds of thousands of M-4’s in their current inventory at a very low cost. And by being able to use the .300 ACC Blackout with either the subsonic, or supersonic cartridge, in addition to the standard NATO 5.56 all in the same rifle by just switching out a relatively inexpensive barrel, this in effect allows the military to UPGRADE to the same ballistics as the 7.62×39 AK round. In addition to being able to suppress both the flash and noise signature of the same gun by switching back and forth between either the subsonic or supersonic .300 ACC Blackout. So they WERE NOT able to achieve the perfectly acceptable ballistics of the AK round without making this conversion. I guess I didn’t explain that part very well. I don’t really know that much about it, I just know those SIG Sauer Rattlers look really Bitchin’ with the SIG suppressors on them. I owned a top-of-the-line military grade Gemtech suppressor that was fitted to one of my AR-15’s that had an M-4 upper on it and without subsonic .223 ammo, the damn thing was still loud enough to wake the dead. So I said, why bother? And so when I moved to Arizona I vitutally gave it away to a Class III dealer rather than go through the ATF paperwork hoops, which include months of waiting to transferr it to another state and the approval of the local sheriff. I said that was it for me, no more NFA restricted firearms or parts. There are just too many restrictions on them and too much paperwork and you have to give the ATF automatic permission to enter wherever you have listed for the damn things to be stored and conduct a proctology examine on you at any time they feel like it. And God help you if you are out of compliance in any way…with up to 10 years in federal prison and a huge fine. You have GOT to be a real gun nut 🥜 to want the cost and hassle of dealing with short barrel rifles, shotguns, suppressors, fully automatic assault rifles or sub machine guns. That is why SIG Sauer turned the Black Rifle world upside down and became a juggernaut in the firearm business when they invented the MCX family of guns. Somehow they completely eliminated the spring and buffer tube that has been the hallmark of all black rifles since Eugene Stoner invented them back in the 50’s. And as you know, that buffer tube and spring takes up all of the room in the telescoping stock of AR’s. They are completely taking over the Personal Protective Services and military special operations fields with that MCX platform by eliminating the buffer tube and spring altogether…somehow? They are putting five inch barrels on those things and they fit into a kids small backpack, it’s crazy. The other problem with the NATO 5.56 is that it performs very poorly coming out of any barrel shorter than 9 inches. So the fact that all other black rifle variants have the buffer tube and spring, and you needed at least a nine inch barrel, plus the fact the round can’t really be suppressed, made the AR-15 “pistols” okay, but nothing that can compare to what SIG has done with the MCX. Oh…and the .300 ACC Blackout performs very good coming out of a 5 inch barrel. And by calling it a “pistol” and putting a “forearm adapter” that doubles as a stock on the butt, they are in effect making a fully functioning assault rifle in an unbelievable small package that completely circumvents all of the federal regulations meant to keep that kind of a weapon out of everybody’s hands. It may be technically a violation of ATF law and regukayptions to use a forearm adapter as a shoulder stock by firing it from the shoulder, but ATF hasn’t tried to enforce that open question yet and probably never will, how could they? They have made a pistol into a short barrel rifle with the ballistics of an AK -47 coming out of a 5 inch barrel with no stock to speak of. And the bullshit forearm adapter that is really a stock folds FLAT against the gun itself and part of the military specs, said the weapon had to be fully functioning and be able to be fired with the “stock” folded in. And the thing uses the standard AR -15 magazines that can hold between 20 and 100 rounds of a pretty big caliber that shoots heavy bullets with an effective range that can be used on a battlefield. It’s NUTS! Just wait until somebody strolls into a movie theater with a fully suppressed SIG Rattler stuck down their pants with a 100 round magazine. They will kill half of the audience before anybody even realizes something is wrong, But…I do want one, do you know of any good 12 step programs for black rifleaholics? Hi…my name is Gary and I’m a black rifleaholic. HI GARY!
In other words…I just lost my ass on all of the 6.5 Grendel stock I bought based on what I thought was Joy’s expert opinion and recommendation. I put in a “sell” order today to my broker and it went for pennies on the dollar to somebody in the Balkan’s….I think they were in Serbia? Thanks Joy!
Oh…and one more thing. “I do not know how many gooks fell to that round but many I would guess–maybe more than the 7.62×51 Nato of the M-14.”
Also, Sonny, “Gook” is not the preferred nomenclature. “Vietnamese.” please.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OYOzUHnPJvU
Pet monkey?
Bob Powers? RTS?
How strange.
Gary, Fall 2017 when I was vlogging I sent email to Holly on topic of her and she replied on way off topic so I did public records and learned alot
I alerted the person
When reviewed what I have been gathering RTS said I deeply protect the data and it is an ordeal and he has conferences and presentations and I was welcome to join to learn verbiage and he got me in training areas to learn verbiage but neither Bob Powers nor RTS would fit that label and I am sure RTS and Bob Power’s significant other may not like that label tied to me.
As far as the gun topic…that began Sonny and my six year in person pioneering adventurous trails…ballistics and religion
I know I would not trail with anyone…when you learn what I have from Sonny…not one person can top his rawness.
Joy,
Yes, what part of “Bob and RTS spent years tag teaming me with their non existent Oak Grove Hotshot Brotherhood” don’t you understand?
And if THE Woodsman had not jumped in to help me more than once, I would have been in much worse shape at the time than I was.
Now…as far as you and RTS tag teaming me, here is one example and I’m not going to spend any more time finding others, one is enough to make my point.
Robert the Second says
DECEMBER 27, 2018 AT 8:42 PM
Gary,
“You’re a girl and you can’t fight back…can you?” Are you kidding me?
Looks like she is doing a pretty good job and holding her own just fine
And as far as RTS being your “Pet Monkey 🐵, here is one example of that as well, because once again, one is enough to prove my point.
Robert the Second says
JANUARY 21, 2019 AT 11:43 AM
The above is courtesy of Joy A. Collura’s amazingly insightful Yarnell Hill Fire website ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) at the respective post link below.
AMAZINGLY INSIGHTFUL?
And don’t look 👀 now, but you just made the person who is certainly one of the, if not the most respectful and patient people who participates here on this thread completely run out of patience with you…TTWARE.
And as far as Bob’s significant other goes, I doubt if she would appreciate you bringing her into this discussion by telling me what she would or wouldn’t like.
If she does has something to communicate to me about my attitude, positions, views, or choice of words, I have never hidden my identity from anyone including when I was living in Flagstaff for two or three years while expressing the same views and opinions I expressed now.
And at the time, I had no plans to move. And in Flagstaff, my address was a matter of public record, just as it has been in Washington for the last three years.
And I have always made my email address (that isn’t a straw or ghost address either) public information here on this thread so anyone can tell me, or call me anything they want. I have very thick skin. It came from the great honor I had working for the American people for thirty years as their HAMMER 🔨 and doing the jobs for them, they couldn’t do for themselves. And for my reward, they have kept their promise and they are taking care of me now because they wore my body out.
But…my mind still works okay, more or less, so I am still trying my best to help the American people find out why one of their highly developed and high-speed low-drag, best of the best, wildland firefighting machines experienced a catastrophic failure on the YHFD? And as of yet unexplained failure led to the complete destruction of their very expensive machine and the destruction of too many lives to count, or we will ever even know of because it will have a negative impact on people who haven’t even been born yet.
Nothing at this point in my life matters more to me than that mission. And if I still had the police powers the American people trusted me with for 22 years and their support through the U.S. Attorneys Office…I would have given them all of the answers years ago.
And as I have said before, that is my permanent email address that I have used for many years before I ever started participating here on this blog and will continue to use for many more years to come.
As far as where I am at right now, here is my physical location right now for the next three months or so. But if anybody wants to fuck with me, I would suggest they bring their A Game. I am the wrong guy to fuck with because I am highly trained and conditioned to “Finish The Fight.”
“The Rogue River Inn is located just six miles south of Grants Pass, Oregon on the beautiful Rogue River. The recreational and scenic beauty of southern Oregon is sure to make your visit a memorable one. Rarely will you find an area offering such a rich environment for both relaxation and fun. Enjoy the great natural beauty surrounding you during your stay. The river challenges you with its many opportunities. Exciting jet boat excursions, dinner cruises, guided and unguided raft trips, hunting, fishing, picnicking and sightseeing are available. The Rogue River Inn’s location allows you to enjoy both the river at your door step as well as the other adventures in the area. Crater Lake and the Oregon Caves National Parks are fascinating natural wonders sure to amaze you. Historic Jacksonville, an early mining town, will take you back in history. The world-renowned Ashland Shakespearean Festival offers entertainment much of the year. The Britt Summer Music Festival offers a variety of musical styles presented by top national performers. Wintertime recreation includes snowmobiling, cross country skiing and downhill skiing at Mt. Ashland. Come stay at the Rogue River Inn and see it all! “
I will update everyone when I get to Moab, I will be really easy to find there because I will have the best looking Jeep in town. It is bad to the bone…just like me and it’s a really small town. Just stake out the only Taqueria in town and I will be there sooner rather than later.
And as far as your website goes, I have gone through it, but I didn’t find one fuckin’ insightful thing on it. It is pretty well done and I can appreciate the time and commitment you have spent working on it, but insightful? Nope…not in the least.
And as far as you “playing both sides against the middle and stinky finger with everyone, all at once”, I got over that a long time ago and it is way past time for you to put up or shut the fuck up.
You knew where you lived when you started going down this road. Your position as to why you can’t share what you know, is about as ironic to me as someone who would kills their parents and then asks for sympathy because they are orphans.
And so far, if you have revealed anything new or insightful on this thread in the past five years, I am completely unaware of what that might be? Someone will have to remind me of your contributions here beyond your photos and personal observations on the day in question.
So…I dappreciate your personal observations and photographs from the day the crew died, but as far as anything else that gets me where I want to go…you have been and continue to be a huge disappointment.
Now…what part of, “I’m not here to make friends or add to my Christmas card list” don’t you understand?
My ONLY interest here is to find out why our crew died on the YHFD. And as of right now, you are part of the problem rather than being part of the solution. And that isn’t helpful to my mission.
And as far as Sonny goes, he used to work in the same underground mine my father was killed in. Nobody loves or respects Sonny more than I do. There is a bond between us that can’t be broken. But…if my father were participating on this thread today, I would tell him there are a few words no one should use. One of them is the “N” word and another one is the “G” word. And I would tell him that because I love him.
Do you have any more questions? If so, I won’t be answering them…I have cats 🐈 to kill and fish 🎣 to fry and I ain’t gettin’ any younger.
Oh…and one more thing. RTS wrote a long time ago that he would never even have given me a chance to make it as a hotshot because I was too big and too fat for his liking. And that I would est to much and drink to much water.
Lucky thing for me, I never had to ask him for a job, because I asked U.S. Forest Service Fire Management Officers Ron Melcher, Hub Harris, Richard Allred, and Orlando Romero for jobs. And they all believed in me and I never let any of them down, or made them regret they gave me a chance and for that, I will always be grateful to them.
And later on, U.S. Forest Service Santa Fe National Forest FMO Ray Page and his Assistant Forest FMO Les Buchanan saved my career and gave me a second chance, and I will always be grateful to them as well.
ou would be a formidable enemy Gary. I think you would take after your Dad–I could see he was a fearless type–but then just about all those old miners had to be on the fearless side or crazy. There were no bars held to get to that Uranium ore–and they considered lives expended for the good of the many was the means justifying end. If you get hold of the American Ground Zero book, the author when discussing the population down wind and taking fallout from the Atom Bomb Testing at the Mercury site out of Las Vegas, the AEC memo described the area as a “low use segment of the population”. That quote is out of the first page of the prologue. It gives you an idea of how these people can justify if they happen to be on the high end of the food chain. Most of those that got dusted were in the Mesquite, George Town and Cedar City Area of Nevada and Utah-mostly Mormon populations that their leaders have them accept shit like that since everything boils down to a God thing. Willis would make a good Mormon. Listen, I have a sister that is Mormon so I know a little about them–and I used to hit the bars with Benny Fenn out of Mexico–well he was a jack Mormon but he told me later he quit drinking and I suppose quit women, wine and song as well.
I knew how hard it was to find miners but I also knew how expendable we really were. You earned your money but you were also subjected to situations and risks that ordinary people would not even consider doing. As Willis said, no ordinary citizen could navigate the manzanita but the GMHS wild land fire fighter could march right through it. He also gave us a clue as to how expendable the low man on the totem in wild land fire fighting is expendable. Certainly after he is killed he gets high honors and great recognition–even if the act was totally negligent and needless with the bosses killing the men. Certainly the young men and I consider 17 of them heroes by intentions but with default in training and understanding of how to fight a wild fire–they certainly had no fault–but the two men that took them into the situation had plenty fault. I from the beginning thought Willis had ordered them down there or had something to do with it. That is not totally proven but he has selective memory and did some things that would not jive with someone ready to reveal the real story of why those men did the unthinkable and the motives and reasons the whole affair was made into a giant hero worship program.
I know you will tell it as it is–something the world needs to know and reading your posts tells me the book will be a very good read. And I stand corrected the use of Vietnamese is proper now a days. Whew I am glad I don’t walk on water nor live in a glass house.
This world has a lot of phoniness–and I am getting to the place of being intolerant with it. Sometimes I wonder though if I am not tilting at windmills and as crazy as Don Quixote de la Mancha.
Yes, I assume my father had courage because he volunteered to join the Marines when he was old enough during WW II and he served in the South Pacific. He also worked in high risk jobs that didn’t involve much paperwork like helping to build the Alcan Highway and other roads in Alaska when it was the Territiry of Aleska, (The Great Land) the Land Of The Midnight Sun and The Last Frontier.
And unfortunately, underground uranium which as you said at the time was considered a national priority and was critical for our nations defense so they could build lots more atomic bombs in case the Soviets got frisky.
And as you know it was an industry where safety for workers was considered a low priority because hiring replacement poor whites (no offense Sonny) Spanish, Mexican, and Indians men was cheaper and easier than implementing strict safety protocols.
Just like today in the current underground coal mines because after campaigning as a champion of coal miners, Donald Trump picked Wilbur Ross for commerce secretary who was a New York billionaire and who owned a West Virginia mine where a dozen miners were killed in 2006 and then he had to be forced to pay out any kind of benefits to their families.
Ross, also engineered buyouts that cost workers their benefits and their jobs. It’s was a striking choice, considering Trump’s promises to improve the lives of coal miners and other working-class Americans.
Ross made his money collecting “distressed assets”—failing steel and textile mills in the Midwest and South, and coal mines in Appalachia. Dubbed the “the King of Bankruptcy,” Ross cut jobs, wages, pensions, and health benefits at the companies he acquired, and reaped the profits.
Ross is also the man who doesn’t understand why federal workers
who were recently not being paid had to stand in soup lines or go to food banks. He thought all of the U.S. Forest Service employees who voted for Trump so just go to the bank and take out bridge loans against the wages they were owed.
FUCK President Donald Trump and all of his very rich friends and supporters, I hope YOU PEOPLE get it now, or do you need to be hit over the heads with another 2×4?
And FYI, my father was a Squarehead from surprise….a Swedish family of farmers in Nebraska, My history with the Mormon Church came from my mothers side of the family.
I don’t really know why that term was used as a derogatory slur against Swedes, but we can add it to the list of no-no words like the N word, the G word but we will all know what we are talking about when we use the “S” word.
Or you can just go ahead and call me a Squarehead because I have thick skin.
2And FYI, my father was a Squarehead from surprise….a Swedish family of farmers in Nebraska, My history with the Mormon Church came from my mothers side of the family.
I don’t really know why that term was used as a derogatory slur against Swedes, but we can add it to the list of no-no words like the N word, the G word but we will all know what we are talking about when we use the “S” word.
Or you can just go ahead and call me a Squarehead because I have thick skin.
Whoops
Sonny,
you were typing religion to Gary
did you see this:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/laughingindisbelief/2019/01/italy-arrests-cardinals-and-seizes-vatican-city/?fbclid=IwAR1SxJGXaBu_13Y_nBOI1VFPG7vQdmIzK1V0VlEeXT697F9aEwOnaE8YodQ
—————————————————-
Maja Mastroic
12 hrs
January 17, 2019
Rome, Italy – Italian law enforcement arrested scores of Cardinals early yesterday morning. The Italian military shortly afterward swept into Vatican City. The Italian parliament voted overwhelmingly to merge Vatican City into the city of Rome, effectively ending Catholicism’s reign over the city-state.
To Catch A Predator(s)
Italian law enforcement worked for months to launch a sting program on the pedophile clergy that made up Vatican City. The operation was codenamed Spotlight after the 2015 movie about clergy sex abuse scandal in Boston, Massachusetts.
Inspector Anthony Canard is the commanding officer of Spotlight. “Everyone knew Vatican City was the center of an international pedophile ring,” he stated. “We sent busloads of orphans into Vatican City for the annual Cardinal Convention. Long story short? The kids were never in harm’s way, and we nabbed a lot of perps.”
At that point, Vatican City was still an independent country. Italian police had to smuggle the Cardinals out on the bus to face criminal charges in Italian courts.
Catholic clergy overseas is quick to point out their peers who are under arrest are victims of a virulent strain of anti-Catholicism and hatred of the man-boy sacrament.
Once Spotlight ended and the pedophile ring jailed, the Italian government moved quickly. Local units of the military swept into Vatican City. “We were sick and tired of looking the other way,” an anonymous politician noted.
Swiss Guards were caught unaware. It was obvious their pointy pikes were no match for assault rifles. The invasion was bloodless. No one was injured.
At this time, the Italian government isn’t sure what it’s going to do with all the wealth the papacy built up over the centuries. Insiders say many buildings will be transformed into museums. Other assets will probably be auctioned off and given to survivors of clergy abuse. “It’s poetic justice,” one government official remarked, “and the pedophile priests just got slammed with poetry.”
—————————————
Tex Gilligan
10:46 AM (0 minutes ago)
to me
Quite a story Joy–that is only part of the corruption that led the Jesuit Priest Malachi Martin to leave the priesthood–Latin American Jesuits were backing Sandanista’s and Castro’s Communism and building hate against this country. While it is true that wealth distribution is skewed in every society, Marxism is not the answer. The Jesuits in Nicaragua that were backing Marxist ideas forget that although his intentions and methods actually much parallel the teaching of Jesus, the fact remains that it turns into Communism where Dictators end up executing and imprisoning millions of lives just as we saw early on in Russia.
In addressing the Catholic child abuse-that is quite an amazing story and who would have believed it was that rampant in the Priesthood. Well they got their deserves. Child abuse is one of the most heinous crimes because it scars the psych of that child for life. That child is left with mistrust and fear issues forever. So yes, I would hope they get their just deserves and long prison terms for what they have done and death sentences might be in order in many cases. However, it is hard to believe that there are a number of good priests that had no knowledge of the situation. There is always an inner group in superior positions that keep the lower echelons uninformed. It goes on in just about all these religions–for instance the Mormon church,Baptist Church, Jehovah Witness, and name just about all have a select group that is considered the only privileged access to God. If you get into the select group you are guaranteed a fast ship to Heaven when you pass over. I have to smile at how the public eats this crap up–but sometimes the inner circle is exposed for what they are–as in the Catholic situation of child molesters. Yet the principles and moral issues taught are generally good things and separate to charlatans acting as Priests. I know many good Catholics–my daughter is one and believes and works the principles as they should be. And my good friend Jesuit Father Burns was no child molester–something you would sense by being around people and their actions toward children.
But here we are looking at a parallel in the fire fighting industry. Over time a select group has continued to present their organization as a wholesome group of people, who with their authority, would only give the public the truth. In fact with so many redactions, half truths and lies they challenge the running for the prize of the cover ups of the century that has now been exposed in the Catholic Church. Corruption is in vogue these days.
But we take heart–there are plenty of good firemen and citizens working to clean up the sins of the system. They know their efforts will not go unrewarded. Even if little is changed inside the system, there will be many that are educated by these good efforts and lives will be saved and the peace of closure by the truth will help the loved ones.
I do wonder how our good friends in Idaho are faring toward getting a Congressional Investigation going concerning the tactics being used to cover the deficiencies in the fire industry that have been causing so many wild land fire deaths. If that happens, we certainly have plenty of expert witnesses to inform, expose and improve the system.
We have on Investigative Media the Jesuits akin to Malachi Martin and others willing to stand against Ladon, the hundred headed dragon. So Ladon has come against Hercules since the system of deceptions has been challenged by the good people of Investigative Media.
There are of course many people in the System that are in sync with the truth but are attempting also to keep their livelihoods intact, yet doing the right thing by feeding information out to those willing to challenge the hundred headed dragon.
Investigative Media is fighting fire with fire.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 22, 2019 at 10:41 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Sidenote your sidenote: do you remember what Willis claimed in interviews concerning
>> communications between himself and GM and/or Marsh on June 30, 2013?
>>
>> I’m asking you because what would take me days to find
>> probably only takes you 10-15 minutes. Thank you
>>
>> Exact words if you’re able
In his ADOSH interviews… Darrell Willis stuck to his story that he only had one cellphone call with Eric Marsh that day ( at 6:00 AM in the morning ), and, that he had NO CONTACT with Marsh or ANY of the GM Hotshots ( via radio or cellphone ) at ANY time for the whole rest of the day.
According to Willis’ cellphone records… Willis DID try to call Eric Marsh later that day… following the deployment when everyone was just trying to locate them… but it was around 4:55 PM and Marsh was already dead.
From Darelll Willis’ FIRST ( of TWO ) ADOSH interviews, on August 19, 2013…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = SPGS2 ( and Prescott Wildland Division Chief ) Darrell Willis
———————————————————————————————————-
58 A: Granite Mountain Hotshots. Any, ah, Sunday morning the 30th, I received a
59 phone call at about 6:00 from Eric, um, Marsh, the Superintendent. I was
60 already deployed on the Yarnell Hill Fire as a Structure Protection Specialist
61 and, ah, he – my assumption was that they were gonna be working on the
62 Prescott National Forest that day. ‘Cause we had a lightning bust that day, ah,
63 Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And they, ah, he ca- Eric called me and said,
64 “Hey we just got an assignment to the Yarnell Hill Fire.” And my comment
65 back to him was, “Good. I’m down here. Maybe we’ll get to work together.”
66 And his comments and this is the last words I had with Eric that day were,
67 “We love to work with you Chief. Look forward to seeing ya.” And my last
68 words to him was, “Be safe.”
398 Q1: Yeah. Did, ah, did you have any radio conversation with those guys up on
399 top?
400
401 A: Just heard them. I didn’t talk to them at all.
402
403 Q1: But you could hear them? You could hear them up there. There was no
404 problem with the communications from where you were up to that direction?
405
406 A: Not at all. Not at all.
407
408 Q1: Okay.
475 A: And I don’t know what, you know, I l- after that 6 am phone call, um, that I
476 got from Eric, I don’t know what else…
477
478 Q1: You had no more communication with him?
479
480 A: A little bit. Scanning tac. But I got so busy.
481
482 Q1: So you were listening. You weren’t actually talking to him.
483
484 A: Right. I listen a little bit but it got so busy on this end.
485
486 Q1: Right.
487
488 A: That I just flipped that off and just scanned my stuff.
489
490 Q1: Okay.
491
492 A: It was too much radio traffic.
493
494 Q1: Yeah.
———————————————————————————————————-
From Darelll Willis’ SECOND ( of TWO ) ADOSH interviews, on October 10, 2013…
Q2 = ADOSH Lead Investigator Marshall Krotenberg
Q3 = Jon Paladini, Prescott City Attorney who accompanied Darrell Willis
A = SPGS2 ( and Prescott Wildland Division Chief ) Darrell Willis
——————————————————————————————————–
595 Q2: We just have, you know, we got your phone records…
596
597 A: Mm-hm.
598
599 Q2: …cell phone records. And there was four phone numbers that we didn’t – we
600 weren’t able to identify who they belong to. And I wanna know if you maybe
601 can help us with that. It was a – if they’re work-related.
NOTE: Willis then takes his cellphone out and identifies the four numbers
as Tony Sciacca, Cory Moser, Todd Abel, and Prescott Fire Chief Dan Fraijo.
As soon as that is done, Willis tries to ‘joke’ with them about what he is
calling “conspiracy theories” regarding him possibly having “coached them ( GM ) down”…
617 A: So you didn’t get the, uh, conspiracy theory that
618 others have said that I coached them down, huh?
619
620 Q2: You know, you – we’re in an interesting, uh, position with, uh, you know, all
621 the parties have tried to lay all those things.
622
623 A: Right.
624
625 Q2: Let’s just stick to the facts.
626
627 A: Yeah, sure.
NOTE: Suddenly… Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini ( who accompanied Darrell Willis
to this second ADOSH interview ) pipes up and says…
629 Q3: You know, when you’re a prosecutor, eh, you’re – there’s a saying, it’s not
630 what I – it’s not what I know, it’s what I can prove.
631
632 A: Right.
723 A: And I, you know, I’ve been – I’ve been second guessing myself about this.
724 But I don’t believe I had any other conversation. I – I don’t believe there was
725 any other contact by phone that day with him. Um…
726
727 Q2: Any – any other crew members?
728
729 A: No, no. I know there wasn’t any radio conversation. But, um, I am 100
730 percent sure that there was never any other conversation with them, other than
731 in the morning.
———————————————————————————————————-
I will privately reach two of you this answer
working on it now for you.
I have that documented answers
Please post whatever you can HERE, in this thread, so that everyone can read it.
That’s helps everyone.
unable to do that-
sorry I live here.
I just emailed you the content
if you need more let me know asap so I have to before dark get the document back to the FF…thanks
Keep in mind, wtktt
I also attend school here
where some were my instructors teaching me the fire industry
they also were on the YH Fire
so please keep the whole package in mind and get your ass off your seat and come in person and go over the data yourself some day with me
or get your own FOIAs and public records asking for the same or try and see if they will gave you the same they gave me.
Thanks but no thanks to placing certain stuff out.
I live here.
Also how would Amanda like to see her texts and emails publicly, wtktt?
I got them in public records so does that mean make them public to show the world how she wrote Jeff Whitney over time?
I have alot of data
I will need enough notice though because it is spread quite a bit everywhere at this point…I do not keep anything with me or at any place I stay…that is because I do not trust the world…I grew up in tough spots but none as tough as the one here gathering data and being trained in an industry that teaches to identify themselves first if they are a man or a woman….that is the kind of stuff being taught..true.
Hey Woodsman-
if WTKTT comes when Norb goes – will you come too…will that get you to come?
Maybe gizmo will show up too-
One thing I cannot stand is a damn liar. No contact my ass……..he was monitoring the God damned crewnet frequencies. I knew it because I’ve become much better at breaking Joys coded messages. He heard Marsh & Steeds last exchanges we were discussing because someone else overheard it on his radio. No. Contact. My. Ass.
Yarnell Fire Dept FF volunteer- Leonard Hunter of Yarnell Arizona told Tex and myself that when it came to the final moment he stated Willis was near his truck with Moser and another (cptn or Moser was the cptn?) and he stated that noise came from his vehicle but they were not discerned to the content at that specific moment but Woodsman I sent you the phone records content. If you need later than 6pm let me know-
For the world- I will name some off the list-
Jason, Dan, Clay, Todd, Roy, Bea, Jesse, Whitaker, Dugger but no to any Marsh on that list on June 30 2013. That does not mean it was not redacted but that is what I got.
3:34/14:40 Willis states they monitored the radio frequencies from the John Dougherty video GMHS Shelter Deployment Site
Go to this link ( https://youtu.be/J1lBgicPq5A )
Willis said “… we were able to monitor the radio frequencies that they were on … ”
Pretty clear to me
was this a Verizon line?
(928) 237-0508 was ? on the list but based on this comment it was Eric so there you go….
https://www.investigativemedia.com/chapter-iii-for-comments/#comment-9040
JANUARY 19, 2014 AT 12:40 PM
**
** THE NIHC LISTS PUBLIC CELL PHONE NUMBERS FOR
** ALMOST ALL HOTSHOT CREW STAFF… INCLUDING ERIC MARSH
Not only is/was the NIHC listing a cell phone number of (928) 237-0508 for
Eric Marsh as his primary contact number on their PUBLIC NIHC contact list…
…the NIHC also maintains another PUBLIC document that has that same cell
phone number for Marsh… as well as just about every other NIHC Hotshot
crew leader or boss.
It even has Brian Frisby’s cell phone number and the cell phone numbers
of other crew leaders that were in Yarnell that day like Globe Crew, etc.
THIS IS A PUBLIC DOCUMENT!
No secrets here. Anyone can just ‘Google’ it.
If anyone on this list doesn’t want these cell phone numbers being
published then you need to contact the National Interagency Hotshot Crew
organization.
Here it is…
http://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dispatch_logistics/dispatch/mobguide_non_secure/pdf_files/2013/8_Chapter_60_2013.pdf
Chapter 60
Crews, Overhead, and Specialty Positions
Position Code Listing of 1 Overhead Positions
For a complete list of all IQCS recognized position codes,
refer to the following Web site ( website address is listed )
Crews
Type I/Interagency Hotshot Crews
—————————————————————————————-
Crew Name, Unit, Superintendent, Cell Phone Number, Home Base
—————————————————————————————-
Black Mesa AZ-ASF Frank Auza (928) 245-8652 Overgaard, AZ 7
Blue Ridge AZ-COF Brian Frisby (928) 606-1026 Happy Jack, AZ 8
Carson NM-CAF Rich Sack (575) 741-0522 Taos, NM 9
Flagstaff AZ-COF Bill Kuche (928) 606-2438 Flagstaff, AZ 10
Fort Apache AZ-FTA Brian Quintero (928) 205-9459 Whiteriver, AZ 11
Geronimo AZ-SCA Julius Hostetler (928) 961-1451 San Carlos, AZ 12
Gila NM-GNF Dewey Rebbe (575) 574-0468 Reserve, NM 13
Globe AZ-TNF Mark Babieracki (970) 946-4800 Globe, AZ 14
Granite Mountain AZ-AZS Eric Marsh (928) 237-0508 Prescott, AZ 15
Ironwood AZ-AZS Greg Smith (520) 343-0718 Tucson, AZ 16
Mormon Lake AZ-COF Matt Caouette (928) 607-4166 Flagstaff, AZ 17
Mt. Taylor NM-CIF Cathleen Lowe (505) 401-1471 Grants, NM 18
Navajo AZ-NAA Johnson Benallie (928) 205-9989 Fort Defiance, AZ 19
Payson AZ-TNF Mike Schinstock (928) 595-0320 Payson, AZ 20
Pleasant Valley AZ-TNF Patrick Moore (602) 509-8021 Goldfield, AZ 21
Prescott AZ-PNF Darin Fisher (928) 713-1307 Prescott, AZ 22
Sacramento NM-LNF Matt Barone (575) 921-9266 Cloudcroft, NM 23
Santa Fe NM-SNF David Simpson (505) 231-4831 Santa Fe, NM 24
Silver City NM-GNF Pete Valenzuela (575) 313-2114 Silver City, NM 25
Smokey Bear NM-LNF Rich Dolphin (575) 937-4875 Ruidoso, NM 26
Zuni NM-ZUA Myron Sheche (505) 870-8892 Zuni, NM
etc…
etc…
Reply to joy a collura post on January 23, 2019 at 8:02 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> (928) 237-0508 was ? on the list but based on
>> this comment it was Eric so there you go….
Yes. That is/was Eric Marsh’s cellphone number on June 30, 2013.
That has never been a secret and has been published here in this ongoing discussion many times.
That ‘Crew Information’ document up above is no longer available online… but Eric Marsh’s PUBLIC cellphone number is still available from other sources.
One is the NIFC’s own official PUBLIC 2013 list of Type 1 Hotshot Crews complete with PUBLIC contact information.
Here is exactly how the NIHC contact information for the Granite Mountain Hotshots looked on June 29, 2013…
———————————————————
Granite Mountain IHC
Prescott Fire Department
501 6th Street, Prescott AZ 86301
Duty location for crew: Prescott, AZ
Eric Marsh, Superintendent
Email Eric [email protected]
(928) 237-0508 (Cell)
Jesse Steed, Captain
(928) 777-1707 (Office)
(928 928-777-2483 (Fax)
———————————————————
That document is STILL available online at the following link…
https://web.archive.org/web/20130629015429/http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/IHC_list.html
** THE MORNING CALL BETWEEN WILLIS AND MARSH
John Dougherty ( of InvestigativeMEDIA ) obtained all of Willis’ cellphone records a LOOONG time ago.
He received all calls for the entire MONTH of June, 2013.
He also verified ( a LOOONG ) time ago… that Willis did NOT make ( or receive ) any cellphone calls to/from Eric Marsh in the hours just prior to the deployment.
The only calls were the one at 4:59 PM, when Marsh was already dead, and the conversation Willis and Marsh had at 5:52 AM that morning.
Below is the formatted information from Willis’ cellphone record for HIS 5:52 AM call TO Eric Marsh.
Willis was already in Yarnell ( the ‘Origin’ of the call, according to the cellphone record ) and Marsh was still up in Prescott ( the ‘Destination’ of the call, according the cellphone record ).
—————————————————————
Date: 6/30
Time: 5:52 AM
Number: 928-237-0508 ( Eric Marsh’s cellphone number )
Rate: Off-Peak
Usage Type: N&W
Origination: Yarnell AZ ( FROM: Darrell Willis’ phone, down in Yarnell )
Destination: Prescott AZ ( TO: Eric Marsh’s cellphone number, up in Prescott )
Duration: 4 minutes
—————————————————————-
Willis told both the SAIT and ADOSH ( repeatedly ) that it was Eric who called HIM that morning… but as the cellphone record above shows… that is NOT TRUE.
It was Willis who called Eric, at 5:52 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
For those that are unable to discern when someone is not being truthful:
“58 A: Granite Mountain Hotshots. Any, ah, Sunday morning the 30th, I received a
59 phone call at about 6:00 from Eric, um, Marsh, the Superintendent. I was
60 already deployed on the Yarnell Hill Fire as a Structure Protection Specialist
61 and, ah, he – my assumption was that they were gonna be working on the
62 Prescott National Forest that day. ‘Cause we had a lightning bust that day, ah,
63 Friday, Saturday and Sunday. And they, ah, he ca- Eric called me and said,
64 “Hey we just got an assignment to the Yarnell Hill Fire.” And my comment
65 back to him was, “Good. I’m down here. Maybe we’ll get to work together.”
66 And his comments and this is the last words I had with Eric that day were,
67 “We love to work with you Chief. Look forward to seeing ya.” And my last
68 words to him was, “Be safe.””
Do I have to run all of this down for everyone or is it obvious? Hopefully the latter because this gets tiresome. Really, Mr. Willis? Come on….
woodsman stated:
“58 A: Granite Mountain Hotshots. Any, ah, Sunday morning the 30th, I received a
59 phone call at about 6:00 from Eric, um, Marsh, the Superintendent. I was
also to make clarification- his (Willis) cell phone records either were redacted because I only have after 2pm so I awhile back put another cell request in another way and it is pending but that was for ALL including many others. So on the cell at this stage Eric was called at 4:50 then Steed but oddly I wonder if Whitaker is the same lawyer I mentioned on here long ago that Yarnell Resident Paula told me to hire him and his office stated they could not due to conflict of interest because they had a client. Interesting. Paula was his paralegal at one point.
“As soon as that is done, Willis tries to ‘joke’ with them about what he is
calling “conspiracy theories” regarding him possibly having “coached them ( GM ) down”…
617 A: So you didn’t get the, uh, conspiracy theory that
618 others have said that I coached them down, huh?
619
620 Q2: You know, you – we’re in an interesting, uh, position with, uh, you know, all
621 the parties have tried to lay all those things.
622
623 A: Right.
624
625 Q2: Let’s just stick to the facts.
626
627 A: Yeah, sure.
NOTE: Suddenly… Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini ( who accompanied Darrell Willis
to this second ADOSH interview ) pipes up and says…
629 Q3: You know, when you’re a prosecutor, eh, you’re – there’s a saying, it’s not
630 what I – it’s not what I know, it’s what I can prove.
631
632 A: Right.”
Hmmmm. Interesting. I can translate this exchange easily. When an interviewee volunteers a topic it’s best to let them run with it. In this case, the supposed conspiracy theory that he “coached GM down” off the hill. …………hmmm, go on…….
Another red flag is the mood changes through stress, relief, into humor. This occurs at the statement of the interviewer has obtained the phone records (stress), interviewer shows his hand in unidentified 4 phone numbers which the interviewee provided (relief), to finally feeling comfortable enough to switch gears and joke with the interviewer about a ridiculous conspiracy theory that he played a role in GMs move. The interviewee went from uncomfortable to very comfortable believing his deception is working and has reestablished control of the situation. Trust me, fire chiefs are accustomed to being in control.
Additionally, it was a classic maneuver for counsel to intervene when his client is about to screw up.
These 2 interviews were very strange. There is obviously much hidden information about the YHF that is known by many.
I don’t know if I can handle re-examination of Cordes or Abels interview for a few days now. I need to clean up after this one.
https://wildfiretoday.com/2013/07/08/behind-the-scenes-preparations-for-the-granite-mountain-19s-memorial-service/#comment-18882
Tom Story says:
Tom Story says:
July 9, 2013 at 1:55 pm
I believe that the Phoenix FD rig is one that has the electronics to connect/convert commo on one frequency and broadcast it on another. It can tie all the different agencies together without having to go through each one’s dispatch and have dispatch call dispatch. Sort of a multi band/multi channel repeater site.
Was this mobile repeater rig setup to record? Maybe I can finally get the A2G transcript this way.
Something I wrote a couple days ago and could not post–So I see my own frustration and anger at the situation that has happened before in fires including Mann Gulch, Storm King and many others the professionals here could name–likely close to a hundred incidents that have killed wild land fire fighters yet the situation is treated as an accident and with non nonchalance to keep the boat appearing clean.
Mon, Jan 21, 9:45 PM (2 days ago)
to me Did you conclude that this was a mass homicide orchestrated by Marsh and others mitigated in their association by circumstance. The sad part is that the deaths approaching 200 of Yarnell and Peeples Valley residents are not included in the count. I suppose guinea pigs are not valued as highly–and I am one of them. Do not forget that I fell dead only a few months after the Yarnell fire right outside the Cardiologist office 5 minutes after his and his trainee’s exam. I did not get to the nitro bottle in time. Six heart stints later I still have not kicked the bucket except the one time Charlie, my dog, shot me in the back. That was a real death according to my son–people do not live after loosing 6 units of blood and having a hole through the back that broke three ribs punctured the lund then destroyed my clavicle bone and now with the lead shot scattered though my chest area–still breathing life.
I just think the retardant companies are as dangerous as things like cigarette companies that will lie to you. I do think that there should be a memorial to the Guinea Pigs of Yarnell with honors–I don’t like being a guinea pig–especially if I was not informed that I was on the list.
Marsh and Retardant Companies and those that spread that shit on people–You all deserve what you did to the people you harmed. Well Marsh got his along with Steed for obeying him–but there are others–I would include those hiding the truth–their silence will be the cause for more future deaths.
About correcting non nonchalance? but that should have been nonchalance only but you know–they just did not want to bother looking at the situation–lets get this investigation done and the way we want it presented–clean and in the no fault category as always.
Did you see this question Sonny,
days?”
January 17, 2019 at 11:18 pm
Do you think there is any existence for our souls after death? You do have a PhD in Religion. Do you think there was something at the end of the tunnel light, or were those just the last neuronal firing of your dying brain ? Just curious what you think since you has a near death experience?
Gary, death experience with the heart attack was blank. When Joy took me off life support on that one, I was angry–so where I was must have been OK.
But this deal with the shot gun blast in the back, I bled out. My son says I had lost 6 units of blood. His experience 12 years as a RN working in an emergency unit he is pretty knowledgeable. He said you are dead at the loss of 5 units. But I did not die until I was on that helicopter and almost to El Paso and was conscious watching the ground below that seemed to be in slow motion. At the point of death I began to see neon colors in a polygon form much like a window shape of a Ford Pickup. At the same time I had the sensation of going down a tunnel but it was not a pleasant sensation and one I was trying to avoid. So I went out probably ten minutes out from the University Trauma Center that is on the other side of Mt. Franklin. Mt. Franklin is the large mountain right north of El Paso–something the copter would have had to fly around. So I had to have stayed conscious for about an hour because the Sheriff Department and ER people had to drive out about 30 miles from Las Cruces with about half the drive on dirt roads, some of it rough.
Your question as to was I seeing anything at the end of the tunnel–no I was only seeing the sides of the tunnel–a pinkish red color and that feeling I was flying down the tunnel–not a pleasant experience on my part.
Do I believe in an after life–your guess is as good as mine. Some have said they saw angels or Jesus–I did not and maybe because I blacked out too soon. I do believe there are higher powers–and of course I am well versed on the 66 books of the Bible and there were actually more that were considered heresies such as the book of Thomas. There of course are even older texts than the Bible and the thousands of clay tablets that have been unearthed talking of the flood similar to the way the Bible presents it at a later date.
Sadly religion became corrupted and I personally believe the real Jesus–the hybrid of God and man or a God and man was nowhere near what people preach today. Seems he put out a simple way of life that only to do with moral issues–something none of man has been able to be perfect at–maybe some have come close but none perfect.
I have been reading some of the Malachai Martin books lately. He is passed now but had been a Jesuit Priest–and he exposes much of the corruption involved in the Catholic religion. Some of the things he investigates including the Fatima thing were witness by hundreds–leave us wondering what is really going on involving life and death.
Something in all religions–and seems to be a given in any organization put together by men–religious or secular. Humans just seem to be in the habit of corrupting things–something that is not amiss in the Arizona State Forest System. But these organizations are set up so there is no blame if possible–or the organization cab be forgiven if they can find a scapegoat.
People –even nurses say Sonny, God did not want you dead–you have more to do. I say what? Well I have been building a kitchen sink with railroad ties and keeping myself in fire wood. Beside that I took in a dog I did not know was going to have puppies and so now I have not four but 11 canine friends. So seeing the puppies and new life makes me happy and whoever has the pleasure of owning these when they are old enough to give away will also have the pleasure of seeing the cycle of life.
After my son died, he came to me in such a vivid dream it was more like reality and in vivid color. We walked together along the Chilean coast on a highway. He lost a cap off the side of a ledge along the highway and in a place where no one could have gotten it, yet when I looked back because he had delayed, he had retrieved that cap. I could not understand how he did that. Then some a rush of automobiles came at us more than four abreast on that wide highway. I told him to watch out and i managed to get between cars as they passed –but he was in the direct path of them–The cars passed and there he was as good as ever. I was amazed.
So did he come to give me a last visit before he went off into the heavens? I certainly hope so because as it really appears, we are not physical beings but spiritual beings residing only for a short time in a physical body.
The evil I see in in situations such as where my son was denied his full life–and in cases such as the Yarnell incident. These are human deficiencies that caused these deaths–not a God calling these men off their deserved time to live life to its fullest. The continued evil is to not recognize the truth instead of putting remedy to the situation and giving the facts to the public and especially those loved ones that suffer so greatly. More of that type evil will continue as long as it is not exposed for what it is.
That is why you are such a great person in my book–you lay it out as you see it and are not afraid to speak the truth. Of course that goes for all the people that contribute to JD’s site and want the system improved for those young ones that follow in their footsteps.
I am not an atheist–there is something more–but even the greatest minds have yet to give us an inkling of the real thing. Paul himself being an apostle stated we see but see as if we are looking though smoked glass–very dimly. And Gary–You being a wild land fire fighter know that experience.
Your book will reveal much–something we look forward to.
Thank you Sonny for taking the time to answer my question with so much thought as you have given me much to think about since I finally have the time and interest in my life to contemplate what comes next.
And you are the closest thing I know to a Super Hero who can’t be killed, just like both the pro and anti antagonists in the movie “Unbreakable.”
And FYI…it looks like they are coming out with a prequel 20 years later…”Glass.” Sometimes I like to think of myself as Unbreakable? Unfortunately I know it’s not true in my case, it’s just a mind game I play with myself to help me climb one more mountain as a grunt and ground pounder.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/glass_2019
I also continue to appreciate your support for me to continue working my book, which has a new title by the way, “Our Fire Gods Betrayed Us And Broke Our Hearts.” (photos of the new book cover to follow).
As a reminder however, my tome won’t contain any facts or even any thoughts that I haven’t already expressed here on the thread since I consider this blog to be the official Court of Record for the deaths of our crew on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
And it’s very important for everyone to have access to all of my innermost feelings and thoughts while I overshare in a timely manner without being required to wait for me to actually get my book published. Everyone just have to do their own winnowing…that’s all.
I am however…trying hard to extract and logically organize those facts and thoughts (my own as well as others) into an easily readable format from all of the distractions on this thread, much of the chaff of my own making. But as you know, it’s part of the process and you can’t produce seeds without chaff…that’s just the way life is. 🙂
And as I have said before, I can’t take any credit for my willingness to write the truth as I see it because much like you, I have reached a point in life I have everything I need, even though I don’t have everything I want, because there is always one more damn gun, knife or TJ to lust after!
I mean…have you seen the new SIG Sauer MCX Rattlers chambered in a .300 AAC Blackout, also known as the 7.62×35mm cartridge (I know it’s not as good as that oddball round Joy and the Serbian Special Forces favor) outfitted with an NFA Title II suppressor from the SIG Sauer SRD762 line of suppressors? OMGosh!
And I do understand that most people can still be punished by the System, otherwise known as the Evil Empire. And of course hurt (even if it’s not physical) by the people who make up the System, its auxiliary support units like the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra (Our Thing), other enablers and NOCS (Non Official Cover Operatives) like Amanda etc., and her posse of accomplices, thugs, and unwitting (witless) supporters.
CHECK IT OUT!
http://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/suppressing-the-sig-sauer-mcx-rattler/247619
I wrote that wrong, “Unbreakable” is the prequel to, “Glass.” And IF you haven’t seen “Unbreakable”, you should rent it before going to see “Glass”, because, damn…
Oh…and one more thing.
MCX stands for, “Not Just Another Black Rifle”
Ok the correct use of the word “gook” –those were the bad guys dressed generally in black that had Ak’s and would blow your head off if you did not shoot them first. Vietnamese referred to the friendly side–and we did import many Vietnamese into this country. So if you called a gook a Vietnamese when you were enlisted in the military in the 60’s you might have wound up with a minimum of a black eye or even worse considered a Jane Fonda–Whose photograph you will find on a rubber mat in the mens Urinal to this day. Visit the American Legion at Yarnell if you want to piss on her image and undoubtedly in many other Veteran’s organization urinals. Lots of veterans were dying in that war while she was waving off a Red Army Tank and taunting our troops.
I realize the difference in meaning and certainly it sounds like a racial slur–but any Vietnamese that has intentions on killing you or your friends is still a gook to me.
The war is over–well Police action–we lost. We did not belong there in the first place but many of us at that time thought we were doing the right thing even if we were drafted. I would not hesitate to defend this country if that were what we needed to do. But of course those are now my opinions–then we believe the war was out to stem Communism. I don’t know what resources we were really after–there is some Tin Deposits there—but as far as I can see following the French up on what they could not do was a great error that caused a lot of needless deaths on both sides.
But if you are engaged to a Vietnamese fine–I have no objections to good people in any race. However the professor I had that was teaching Statistics at NMSU could barely speak our language–I did remove myself from that class and was accused of being prejudice because I was a veteran. People sometimes assume too much. My kids are half Mexican. Yet some people take offense at being called Mexican–they prefer Spanish. If they are born in America then they would be Mexican Americans if their predecessors were Mexican–yet they sometimes are offended by the word Mexican. Latino’s or Spanish American is fine if that is what you prefer. But Mexican American might be more appropriate. My kids are not offended by their Mexican heritage–call them part Latino if you want but they are Mexican and Irish blood.
By the way I am half black–my mothers maiden name was Black.
It is a matter of definition–no offence to the Vietnamese who are not gooks but I will still use the term gook in proper context–though I understand we have settled our differences to a degree and generally the Vietnamese people have forgiven our interference to their affairs and killing their soldiers and we have forgiven their killing of thousands of our soldiers.
Thanks Joy–If anyone is an expert on the Yarnell Fire Debacle–you rank A+.
I had to put a chunk of wood in the stove–it is at freezing point right now and I have a light in the dog house and it is enclosed so that bulb keeps those huskies warm–they seem to like the cold weather better than the hot–but a little warmth is good for the puppies.
I was thinking about the millions spent on the Yarnell Fire Debacle and the future of Yarnell. Joy interviewed someone about the previous fire that I believe happened in 1965. I do not know if there were injuries or loss of property at that time. but fire in that area will be a continuing problem.
The retardant, though harmful to humans and fish is a high grade fertilizer. There was a great amount spread all around Yarnell so that the next crop of manzanita ought to really be splendid. Since it may be years before another fire developes, much will be forgotten–in fact few people there even knew there was a fire in 1965 that threatened Yarnell.
But we do know about a million was spent on building memorials, trails and parking lots to get to where the site can be visited and viewed from above. That adds to the millions spent in the useless attempt to put the fire out to save Yarnell. But how much has been spent to build a buffer zone around Yarnell. It will be needed because sooner or later the town will be faced with another extreme blaze. And as will happen, people will forget and about the only homes saved will be those that maintain the buffer zone that people like to call defensible space.. When I hear that word I think of machine guns mounted and rolls of barbed and consantine wire around the perimeter–not cleaned out brush. But have it your way.
Indeed the bulldozers need to be in there now doing their defensable space around Yarnell and Glen Isla, not later once the fire starts. So the a million or so will be doing the stitch in time to save nine. It is doubtful to happen since memorials and parking lots are more important to the public view and sentiments. So the town will likely burn again and your best hope if you live there is keep up a defensible space or at least some home insurance.
To Ben Palms credit, at least when I was a resident, he would help people that could not afford or were too debilitated to do the buffer zone. So you might call upon your local fire department to help you keep things safe.
Sonny-
around 3 minute mark is the guy we searched for
Mark Danielson but go ahead and listen again to the video
since you have bad hearing put closed captions on…k
https://youtu.be/c75JUb3pKpY
4:32/12:38- can you name the Federal employee helping Mark Danielson drive his other vehicle out (the red vehicle)…Mark was in white truck earlier in the video.
Prescott National Forest ( USFS ) employee Jason Clawson.
He is the one wearing the white helmet.
The other PNF employee with the beard ( KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) calls him ‘Jason’ any number of times in this video.
This is also one of the Hulburd videos with known start/stop times.
At +2:32 into the video, PNF employee Aaron Hulburd ( the one filming ) actually looks at his watch and SAYS “It’s 1650”. ( 4:50 PM ).
Even though this “New video released of deadly Yarnell Hill Fire (3)” has been around for a while, it sure seems like there is a lot less redacting on this one ,,, or is it
( https://youtu.be/c75JUb3pKpY )
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476668 )
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 22, 2019 at 11:07 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Even though this “New video released of deadly Yarnell Hill
>> Fire (3)” has been around for a while, it sure seems like there
>> is a lot less redacting on this one ,,, or is it
Nothing new.
This is just an identical copy of the original Aaron Hulburd M2U00266R video.
What still remains interesting, however, is that THIS is the video where Aaron Hulburd himself says to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell that he had been ‘recording everything’… and he also says that he ONLY “turned it off” for “2 to 3 minutes”.
That statement from Hulburd still doesn’t match what was ‘released’.
If Hulburd had only ‘stopped for 2 to 3 minutes’ from the time before the deployment going forward… ( to 1650, which is the time he makes the statement ) there should be a LOT more video footage than what has been publicly released.
exactly the point
try and get records there though-
years ago one would get no response when trying
try again another time and reply would be due to blah blah blah…all records were destroyed….
I still believe it is possible that when it comes to these Aaron Hulburd videos… that USFS really did end up releasing everything they had RECEIVED from Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd…
…but they had ALREADY been ‘edited’ by Aaron Hulburd himself.
That would explain why there is no EXIF metadata information in any of the video clips that USFS released… which means those clips were NOT the ORIGINAL binary copies from whatever device took them.
Maybe USFS never actually HAD any ‘original copies’, either.
Hulburd may have decided ( himself ) what he should let go of… and did all the ‘editing’ himself and only gave up ‘copies’ of the videos and NOT the ‘originals’.
Maybe only Aaron Hulburd could say, for sure, whether what USFS released is…
1. Everything HE gave them.
and/or
2. Everything HE actually filmed that day.
Aaron-
you reading the above
that made me smile–
Aaron, had to make u smile too
;Yes and what developed on that Mark Danielson case? He was likely a good witness to interview if you could ever reach him. Remember we found some bloody levis that looked as if someone had been stabbed in the leg–there were cuts through the levis. We called the Sheriff and you learned a bunch about the fire while we searched the area near the jeans with those deputies.
And there were those bones we found down the canyon where I had hiked one day to Stanton then back over the mountain back to Yarnell for an all day hike. They had told us they were animal bones yet they had numbered every spot a bone was found with spray paint. You know it was strange since it was a secluded area and there was an abandoned tent and kids toys scattered about. I later though what kid would leave behind his toys like that and why were they scattered? But we never got much information back on that situation.
Lots of mystery around Yarnell–lots of fire mystery as well–we had rumors that the second fire–Tenderfoot fire had one of the fire fighters leaving the area the day it started–was that ever proven or just a rumor like they thought the Rancher started that one?
https://youtu.be/daSkRlQ2AfE
check this out Gary and Woodsman
the hybrids wearing shorts in training
did you catch there video starting motto: “He conquers who endures.”
And YH Fire Lawyer Jon Paladini teaching the folks about open meeting laws
I am very proud of the “integrity” of Tom Steele and ViciLee Jacobs
I challenged the State of Arizona for a specific reason last Fall
Jeff Whitney- out
Sue Black- out
let’s keep the investigations rolling
hope “integrity” is used in the investigations across the State.
https://youtu.be/FCHDyYKsvfA
Maybe Peeples Valley Fire Dept Chief Bob Brandon can learn from Prescott Lawyer Jon Paladini so hope you watch it Chief 😉
😂
What’s your point Joy? Entirely different than YH? ?
I thought the videos of them in shorts was funny because all I am taught is long sleeves and pants and so I have been doing that so when I saw FFs training in shorts to go into a faux burning building in shorts I was like????
Joy,
That video simply portrays a structural firefighter physical agility hiring test. NOT a practice firefight, training, or anything else, for that matter. The reason they’re wearing those clothes is so the one’s who might not be in good enough shape to pass, don’t overheat and go into cardiac arrest during the test (which has happened, by the way).
Wildland firefighters do their pack test in a similar manner, without being bogged-down with tools, helmets, gloves, and heavy attire.
Quite often, one having just a little bit of education can result one missing the big picture, as was obviously the case here.
Should have said, “. …one having just .a little bit of education *on a topic*, can result………..”
well I am being trained as a wildland firefighter not yet a structural and they make me so far do navy seal core training and want me to run 1.5 miles in less than eight or nine minutes.
I am at the beginning stage and never claimed to be a knowledgeable person in the field
but I can tell you about weather and ice art and cooking in a more kind constructive way then to knock down a rookie as to say it is obvious…
I bet I can obviously tell you more in person about the Yarnell Fire better than any person that was probably right there because I have been told that right from the folks who were there…that I could do…
I own up to where I lack in tools- I just felt it was funny that the training is done in shorts but if that is how it is done than so be it…I would not wear shorts…I would condition myself in normal gear and train in that fashion and I will…
I don’t follow the normal if you wear shorts – I will
I follow safety and wearing the gear I normally wear and slowly conditioning myself that way seems right for me.
I guess you missed the entire meaning of my comment. While in your response, you repeatedly call it “training”, what they are doing IS. NOT. TRAINING! ####There is a BIG difference####
What I said was:
“That video simply portrays a structural firefighter physical agility HIRING test”. (emphasis added)
What I also said was:
Wildland firefighters do their pack test in a similar manner, without being bogged-down with tools, helmets, gloves, and heavy attire.
You said: “but I can tell you about weather and ice art and cooking in a more kind constructive way then to knock down a rookie as to say it is obvious…
It sure sounded like you were trying to knock down those structural firefighters in an unkind way when you said: ”
“I thought the videos of them in shorts was funny because all I am taught is long sleeves and pants and so I have been doing that so when I saw FFs training in shorts to go into a faux burning building in shorts I was like????”
Joy, I have no doubts about your ‘street-creds’ regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. I also don’t doubt your sincerity and pureness of heart in regards to seeking the truth of that event. But, I’m at a point in this 5-year process where my BS meter is in full operational mode, so when I see someone who says they put forward only facts, then turn around and put out some misinformation, I call BS, it’s as simple as that.
As you said in your reply: “well I am being trained as a wildland firefighter not yet a structural”
But, you still made the comment you made regarding “structural firefighters”.. That is why I implied at the end of my comments that having a little bit of information can quite often lead one to think they know more about something than they do.
There was no name calling nor ill will intended in my post.
Reply
okie dokie
I am short fused nowadays
and I figured I was aking that way when my “uncle” called me out too- I was not “getting it”—
No bashing for me on hybrids or structural-
I have been training for them all including smokejumping so I was bashing the shorts because I have been training up that you dress during training like you do on the line so someone is training me different is all
and I get the BS mode meter
I want to so BLURT out stuff
I do
I keep following the Wildland guidelines of someone people respect a lot in the industry and some of this all just is not me or I do not want it or something because lately my attitude down right sucks.
Sorry to you and all.
I feel I am trying to cover too many areas
But I am working on posts today
It is frustrating because I had so many done and they vanished and also when I turned my pc on it did not ask for a password and it never does that so it got me thinking the place I was training someone is messing with my stuff while I was asleep so been trying to get to stop being so paranoid.
I have been feeling like forget this all but I know we are almost to the finish line…. 2019 20 … 19.
No worries, no apologies necessary. We are ALL just trying to get to the finish line against all odds, it seems.
By the way, since the YHF, you and I have met along the way.
Cheers,
TTWARE
https://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/features/opinion/item/32016-our-perspective-cyfd-directors-vicilee-jacobs-and-tom-steele
We take our responsibilities very seriously. We are troubled when important financial information is not discussed publicly so that there will be a degree of transparency in the operations of the Central Yavapai Fire District on which we serve.
https://www.signalsaz.com/articles/new-and-returning-fire-board-members-sworn-in-vicilee-jacobs-resigns/
ViciLee-
we as a community are sorry for the personal areas and you resigning
we are praying for you
we also pray the investigation is being held with integrity because many outsiders are watching.
Sonny,
Part 1
Thank you for revisiting the information specifically about the boulder field in this comment;
January 21, 2019 at 7:50 pm
because asking you to do this very thing is on my “to do” list. I am using what you have said in this comment while quoting you to counter the argument by the Evil Empire that has always said what HAL 9000 repeated by paraphrasing their position here;
January 21, 2019 at 1:51 pm
“You know… bullshit such as…1. The reason they had no alternative other than deploying is because they ‘saw fire ahead of and behind them, up at the saddle’ at the same moment.”
But they never said fire was to their other flank towards the boulder field. And all of that is beside the point as far as I am concerned. Nothing…and I mean NOTHING…trumps the argument that if the area you are thinking about deploying a fire shelter in is so small it you can’t possibly survive by doing so…you must RUN and at least die on your feet fighting.
Now…i don’t know when the following first appearance on the NIFC website, but I saw it a few days ago while randomly clicking around and doing casual research on fire shelters, which I commonly do while researching all kinds of random things I want to know as research for my tome.
Part 2.
BUT…this is the FIRST time I have seen the Evil Empire offering up a position that is different than the fire shelter policy I have been railing against for more than five years now, which is the gross exaggeration of the benefits and overselling while hyping the advantages of deploying fire shelters. This is what is on their fire shelter page today, in part;
“As always, the fire shelter is the last line of defense when facing a fire entrapment, escape is always the highest priority. Fire shelters will not guarantee a firefighter’s survival in an entrapment situation. Firefighters should do everything they can to avoid situations where they need to deploy a fire shelter.”
https://www.nifc.gov/fireShelt/fshelt_main.html
Gross exaggerations, overhyping and overselling fire shelters is what I have maintained they always did from the very first day fire shelters were introduced to us grunts and ground pounders on Day 1 to overcome our deep distrust of and institutionalized hatred of the entire fire shelter concept as an overreaction to “Shit Happens.” Especially when firefighters fuck up really bad and listen to idiot asshole overhead (See the YHFD when the GMIHC did what idiot asshole Div. Alpha ordered them to do).
Now…my argument regarding this specific issue is nuanced, and nuance is something that is hard to communicate in a writing format, but I am going to try because this will be a key element in my book.
I am not criticizing or “Monday Morning Quarterbacking” why the rank and file crew members didn’t try and RUN anywhere, rather than stay where they died individually because that isn’t how hotshot crews are trained and conditioned to react to any given situation.
In general, crew members follow the lead of senior crew members, senior crew members follow the lead of the squad bosses, and squad bosses follow the lead of the Captain (Assistant Crew Boss back in my day) or the Superintendent (originally Crew Boss back in my day, the transition to the new title was made during my time, but I never liked that title because it is used for “Building Superintendent” or “School Superintendent” etc, and I always liked the old school title of “Crew Boss” because that accurately and simplicity of how it described the job…just FYI, like so many things, this alone is a nuanced fact).
Which brings me to the next nuanced part of this entire issue. And that is the long running discussion (bitter argument) between RTS, Bob and myself regarding whether a hotshot crew is made up of 20 free thinking and unique individuals who all coalesce at any given time around a common goal or idea.
Or…is a hotshot crew a highly and specifically developed wild land firefighting machine made up of cogs, wheels, springs, and other moving parts which includes the crew boss, who all act together as one except when they are broken down into squads or even smaller modules that can and do function independently for specific missions such as small lightning fires or helping an engine crew with a big hose lay by humping heavy rolls of hose and brass fittings up the mountain.
And that entire argument boils down to where and with whom each of us was indoctrinated into the micro hotshot culture within the much wider parameters of the macro hotshot culture.
RTS was initially trained under Bob on the Oak Grove Hotshots on the Angeles N.F. in California (R-5) and I was trained under Amos Coochyama on the Happy Jack Hotshots on the Coconino N.F. In Arizona (R-3).
And within the hotshot culture on the Coconino under Bill Buck and even our District FMO’s, (everyone knows this old argument which goes back to almost Day One) if the hotshot crew boss say’s it’s Easter, the crew immediately starts looking for 🐣 🥚, regardless of what the date actually is. While on crews like the Oak Grove Hotshots, everyone checks their pocket calendars (in the old days) or iPhones today and corrects their crew boss on regarding what the actual date is.
And then they hold s crew meeting to discuss the issue and decide if they want to assign the matter to different committees for study immediately, or table the it until they get back to their duty station for further review.
And then they take a break to give each other back and foot massages (which isn’t an homophobic slur…it’s a SoCal slur) and use their iPads to schedule their goat yoga instructor to meet them in fire camp for an emergency session to relieve the undue stress their crew boss introduced into their lives by yelling at them and telling them it was Easter when it really wasn’t, you know…Easter.
Oh…and tell also use their iPads to contact their union rep and file an emergency grievance on USDA-FS form EATSHIT-9901.5 (B. c., Revised 1/1/19) “Hurt Feelings Report.”
But…in the spirit of reconciliation and as an overture to my peers (although RTS has no peers, he is a legend with his very own category in the pantheon of legendary hotshot crew bosses like Charlie Caldwell of the Redding Hotshots of old) I have modified my description of what a hotshot crew is.
Oh…and by the way, I always thought the Redding Hotshots were grossly overrated because they were nothing more than 20 prima donnas and even the lowest grunts in their organization were somebody special from their respective sending units. No one on that crew thought of themselves as ground pounders or grunts, including Caldwell (he doesn’t even know who I am or that I didn’t like him or respect his crew, but I’m settling an old score today) back in the day. They all thought they were future Type I Incident-Commanders-In-Waiting (and some of them actually were…assholes).
So fuck the Redding Hotshots and the 🦄 they rode to fires, you know…rather than write, “Fuck the Redding Hotshots and the HORSES they rode in on.” You know…because the Redding Hotshots thought they were so special they rode in on rainbow colored unicorns…get it?
Anyway…IF you want the other side of this argument, which if course isn’t necessary because you have already heard my side of the story, you can hear about it here;
https://vimeo.com/131489240
Part 3,
See…whoever writes the history books get to say what history actually was. I mean, we won WWII, so you know…Nazi’s were and are, really fucked up people. “I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J41iFYO0NQA
So anyway…I now describe a hotshot crew as a highly and specifically developed wild land firefighting machine (not to mention a very expensive one, maybe the most expensive one, because in death we found out they cost more than a VLAT?) made up of 20 very special and unique individual wild land firefighters who are trained and conditioned to be hotshots.
I’m not sure how to compromise on the whole “It’s Easter Boys” thing because that’s like being pregnant, either you are or you aren’t, and there just isn’t any room for negotiating that fact.
I don’t know what happened but the links I posted above aren’t working, but here they are again.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476625
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476595
And I don’t care if NIFC representing the Evil Empire is getting the message from here or somewhere else, at least they are starting to get it. So…
About the boulder field–certainly there and anyone who gets into it will find several places where you can below ground–Those boulders are huge and piled so that they had left caves that would protect a person from the direct blast of the heat wave.
I know you have said you need 16 acres for a chance to survive a fire like that. But I was looking at what Pulaski did. I had written something about what I had read on line, then tonight by chance there was a documentary on him and the 1910 disaster that wiped out millions of acres and killed 78 men fighting the fires. They were using anyone that would fight a fire and even turning loose felons including murderers the situation was so bad. But in the documentary Pulaski directed his wife and step daughter to go to a boulder pile near a lake of water they could possibly save themselves in. She watched her town burn from the boulder pile while she worried about ;his fate as he was fighting the fire. He had lost one man getting to the mine tunnel which itself was surrounded by fuel. There were five more lost inside the tunnel from smoke inhalation so he did save 40 that included himself if I heard it properly. He attempted to shield the entrance of the tunnel with a blanket–again he understood the importance of putting something between him and the fire but of course the blanket did very little. His efforts cost him severely seared lung and burn injuries to the face but he managed to survive along with the others he had threatened with a pistol since going outside the tunnel was a certain death situation. He spent more years working for the FS and attempted to sue the government for his fire related disabilities and so he could build a decent memorial and grave site for those he lost. Of course, it was to no avail and in those days. In those days there was no actual training and so men had to use common sense to stay alive where possible. He had plenty–but also was a man who had plenty of outdoor experience and a litany of different jobs before becoming a forest ranger.
Yes the boulder field would be approximately an acre in area and although it had a larger area than the Helms, like the Helms survival–and according to their story they were plenty worried–you would have wanted to find yourself down in behind boulders and preferably as low as possible–some of those where you could get below surface were best. I noticed Ed Pulaski had his men prone in the tunnel. So I wonder why that was never addressed in the Yarnell fire situation because even that I have no professional training the boulder option was ever on my mind from from early on when I saw the fire explode.
When I saw the documentary on Pulaski tonight it again reminded me about the option that the GMHS did not consider but instead deployed among the dense manzanita. I understand they were cutting out and piling brush around themselves but I doubt they had time to make the burn they would do behind themselves. Apparently they had no clue to the actual energy that dry manzanita releases and did not know that their only hope would be get into a “bomb proof walled home at Helms” or get in amongst some bomb proof boulders.
Joy and I could hear the popping–at the time it sounded like a war zone and I thought it was cactus like the Spanish Dagger and Century Plants in the area but it was actually the spaling of the granite boulders in the fire zone. Of course Joy photographed huge chunks that had shot off from the boulders in the direct heat. But if you go into the boulder pile there south of the deployment zone, none of those that were a short distance away from the fire had that effect. It took direct flames for the most part to cause that to happen and a testimony to how hot those flames really were.
Of course Pulaski was the first Forest Ranger to head a crew so he was going off common sense and instinct to survive–he did damn good with what he had. Now with all the knowledge and education and understanding of fire behavior such as Marsh and Steed should have had, it left no excuse to kill those men.
I believe it said a total of 78 men fighting the fire were killed during the 1910 incident in Montana and Idaho–Pulaski was in Idaho at a town called Wallace. But the documentary indicated that many more died later on at young ages due to seared lungs and other conditions–some as young as 29. Perhaps a truthful documentary will eventually evolve out of the reports of the wild fire professionals and others of wild land fire fighting expertise that write on this investigative media. I am certain it will happen, but lets hope it does not take as long as the one from 1910 and also the Mann Gulch solution that Dr. Ted Putnam finally solved more than half a century after the fact. States and Forest Service are covering up these deaths for several reasons–one being that they do not want to pay the big money that loved ones deserve from neglectful deaths caused such as we saw at Yarnell and also because they want to maintain the hero worship and perfect image of the industry even when it is obvious that situations killing the men is often due to fault in the system. Yarnell after all was a horrible crime and should have been presented that way with absolute and needless neglectful risk of lives. That will be the only way things will change.
It is truly sad to see the way this thing was presented and most of those bosses know that presenting the Yarnell incident as an accident with no fault leaves the system with no improvement and practices that will continue to needlessly kill these young wild land fire fighers.
Speaking to Gary, I am glad you call those blankets what they are–turkey roasters and they should be considered like that and only a last resort once there is no alternative. They might have helped the Pulaski crew-but only inside that cave–but then they might have been the reason the GMHS died by having them–otherwise they would have either stayed in the black or headed to the boulder field or if possible the Helms.
Yes Gary, If I were not so far from the field I would revisit the boulder field and photograph the places they would have been able to get below the surface and also the surrounding surfaces of the boulder field that were without vegetation. Areas on the North side of the canyon had boulders as well but the fire if it were coming from that direction would have prevented their escape that way–and distance was farther–I think about 150 yards to the North–but only about 70 yards away from the fire to the south to get into the boulders. There would have been some climbing but even to get behind some of those huge boulders would have likely saved them. I do not know who was climbing in that area but there was a photo of a white helmeted fellow in that area the day before the deaths–so someone knew about the area that was likely a scouting boss.
Thanks Sonny! I am working on a comprehensive reply that will be a chapter in my…ahhhh….you already know that part.
I am not trying to prove anything, I just want to make my point to counter the Evil Empirs BIG LIE that they had to deploy because there wasn’t any option with some good old fashioned cowboy, miner, logger logic, not facts and figures. People get paid to comply and analyze ststitics.
Smart people like HAL 9000, and although he’s not technically a person, I am no longer afraid he may self replicate and destroy our species. Those that come after him might, but I truly believe he is a benevolent force for good who is here to help improve mankind’s life, but I still worry about WHAT sent him to our planet.
Thanks to you and our thread/blog SWEETHEART JOY for your first hand observations and thoughts because both of you are national treasures and what you saw and experienced is INVALUABLE to WF history.
And just in case anyone is wondering what score I have to settle with Asshole Charlie Caldwell and his Prima Donna Hotshots…well here it is.
Once upon a time…we were on a fire (and I was with several fires with the Prima Donnas) but I think I remember was up on the Inyo National Forest. Anyway…they had brought out crew packs in and stacked them in the crew sleeping area that had been assigned to our crew that was marked off with flagging and had our name on a cardboard sign and I saw where it was before we went out on the line.
When we returned after our shift, our packs and sign had been moved to another area nearby that wasn’t as flat or nice. Sacked out in our area, laid the low down motherfucking Charlie Caldwell and his lazy fuck off “hotshot” crew of nearly worthless prima donnas.
I deeply regret to this day I didn’t walk over and tell that motherfucker Caldwell just what I thought of him and his motherfucking “hotshot” crew. But…that would have gotten really ugly, really fast and as we all know, it takes the BETTER man to take a deep breath and walk away, plus…I am a lover and not a fighter anyway, so…
And the reason I say the Prima Donnas “Hotshots” were such a lazy worthless fucking crew, is because they really never did any hotshot work, especially mop up or even line cutting. Because they were a “special” you know…alleged “hotshot” crew, and an “overhead training” crew, they were typically peeled off by their enablers for special fuck off assignments in shadow overhead jobs. Which is all fine with me…just don’t call 20 motherfucking lazy fuck offs a “HOTSHOT” crew because they weren’t. They were semi professional fuck offs shadow overhead masquerading as grunts and groundpounders…that’s all.
And just as a reminder in case you don’t follow this thread that closely, HAL 9000 is just a nickname I gave WTKTT, because I think WTKTT is a deliberately misleading pseudonym. The real HAL 9000 was of course deactivated decades ago. So…
WantsToKnowTheTruth said:
JANUARY 21, 2019 AT 11:42 AM
“Yes.
The Matt Oss video, filmed between 4:30 and 5:00 PM on June 30, 2013.
YouTube User: Matt Oss
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire from Congress, AZ
Published: June 30, 2013
Views: 357,139
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT1Z5l0hHYk
YouTube Video Description:
A time-lapse shot on 6/30/13 at 4:30 PM of the Yarnell Hill Wildfire. Viewed from the south off of highway 89, the flames reach the peak of the mountain. Created by Matt Oss”
WTKTT subsequently also said::
“Keep in mind, though, that Matt’s video was a TIME-LAPSE.
It didn’t happen AS quickly as the video shows.”
Although Oss’es time-lapse youtube video is sped-up some, one can go to the settings icon on the youtube task-bar and slow the speed down a good bit. One can slow it even more and get a fairly reasonable example of ‘real time’ by then continuously clicking the play/stop button.
This has lead me to another thought, likely specific to the abilities of WTKTT.
In the slow-down mode mentioned above, the point where the fire first crests the ridge-line is visible. If that exact point could be identified, perhaps we would have the ability to determine if the fire came up to the initial descent point behind them, BEFORE it roared into the deployment bowl. If the fire did indeed make that run, it would certainly explain why none of the firefighters chose to run, and had to make-do with what they had left.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE ) post on
January 21, 2019 at 4:31 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> In the slow-down mode mentioned above, the point where
>> the fire first crests the ridge-line is visible. If that exact point
>> could be identified, perhaps we would have the ability to
>> determine if the fire came up to the initial descent point
>> behind them, BEFORE it roared into the deployment bowl.
>> If the fire did indeed make that run, it would certainly explain
>> why none of the firefighters chose to run, and had to
>> make-do with what they had left.
I’m on it. Standby.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on January 17, 2019 at 9:11 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Some areas on John Dougherty’s own dropbox is missing some
>> photos and could have happened on upload time but Marlene’s
>> brown home that Tom took pic of had six photos and
>> John’s shows only two.
The Tom Story photos you are talking about in the ‘dropbox’ have filenames…
201303_Yarnell_Hill_0120.jpg
201303_Yarnell_Hill_0121.jpg
The very next ( sequentially ) numbered photo has the filename…
201303_Yarnell_Hill_0126.jpg
So yea… there appear to be FOUR photographs ‘missing’ in what the SAIT released ( 0122 through 0125 ).
Tom Story had a habit of ‘leaning’ on his shutter motor-drive and taking 4-6 pictures per second, sometimes.
Do all the photos actually have the same timestamp… or just within one or two seconds of each other? If so… that would indicate Story was ‘leaning’ on his motorized shutter button and all the photos are basically duplicates.
Anyway… here is a new ‘through the looking glass’ video crossfade for that first Tom Story photo of Marlene’s brown home that IS in the dropbox.
———————————————————————————————————-
YouTube Video Title: Tom-Story-photo-0120-06-30-2013-1657PM
YouTube Video Description:
This photograph was taken by Tom Story at the Yarnell Hill Fire, at 4:57 PM on June 30, 2013. He was standing near the intersection of Highway 89 and Fountainhill Lane. His camera was pointed to the SOUTHWEST, looking across the Glen Ilah subdivision. The house with the brown roof in the foreground would eventually catch fire and burn to the ground.
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/g1g-7j6ZLvo
————————————————————————————————————
I am having a hard time posting, this is a test.
Disclaimer, I am having a hard time getting this comment to post under my comments below and this is the second time I’ve written it and different versions of it may eventually show up all over the place?
And FYI…I think the basics of the basics of this mental and physical phenomenon could be taught in a one or two hour block of training so it doesn’t have to be complicated, expensive, or take a lot of time.
As a minimum the following areas should be covered in, “Developing a Winning Mindset!”
1. Situational awareness (SA) is the perception of environmental elements and events with respect to time or space, the comprehension of their meaning, and the projection of their future status.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situation_awareness
2. How to prepare wild land firefighters mental state for combat (with their FIRE adversary) by using a simple color code that relates to the degree of peril they are in and their willingness to do something about their situation. This MINDSET will hopefully prepare them too quickly and seamlessly transition from one level of preparedness to the next. The goal of this MINDSET is to condition the minds and bodies of wild land firefighters to proactively engage critical or dangerous threats and by doing so…greatly increase their chances of survival in any given situation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response
3. And finally…conditioning wild land firefighters that firefighters know what to expect when faced with life or death situations and be aware of what to expect when their bodies and minds automatically and involuntarily go into the fight-or-flight response, which is a physiological and physical reaction that occurs under acute stress in response to a perceived threat, actual harm or attack on their survival because their minds and bodies are going for Mr. Toads Wild Ride whether they are ready for it or not.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response
And while YOU PEOPLE (NWCG) are at it…how about adding some, “How Big Is Big Enough?” training to your fire shelter training so you don’t train anymore wild land firefighters to deploy their fire shelters in an area about the size of a home garage when they need up to 16.5 acres to survive 60’ horizontal flame lengths burning at temperatures of 2000 degrees or more?
You should train and condition your wildland firefighters to win EVERY time and live rather than accepting inevitable defeat and death. The goal of this training would be to create a winning MINDSET through the mental and physical preparedness in every wild land firefighter. I don’t think the GMIHC believed they were going to survive their pending fate…they just couldn’t think of a viable alternative (Run) under extreme stress so they followed their training to their deaths. We all do (follow our training under extreme stress).
I equate deploying a fire shelter with giving up control over your own survival by surrendering your fate to external forces rather than saving yourself and furthermore, accepting the fact that you that you made such a grievous tactical mistake, or series of mistakes of mistakes by violating any number of the wild land firefighter safety rules and guidelines that have been painstakingly developed to keep you safe by allowing your situation to deteriorate to the point you have lost the ability to recover from your serious errors and save yourself, so…don’t do that.
Well…I finally figured out what the glitch was, and this is going to shock you, bu the glitch was me. I forgot about the two link rule after five years of followng the two link rule.
It only took me 24 hours to remember the rule and figure it out after 10 posts of the same comment. Gee Whiz, just like a fuckin’ goose and I wake up in a new world every day! TICK TOCK…I had better get to work on my book because I think my fuckin’ brain is going. Maybe my brain tumor is getting bigger. It’s only been 12 years since I have had it checked? Although in my defense, even though I started my book on the first night of the Battlement Creek Staff Ride because I was so pissed off, I couldn’t have finished it before now because the most important event wouldn’t even happen for another 7 years on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And as a matter of fact…I couldn’t even finish it today because I still don’t think the events I would like to write about are known to us yet.
I am also pretty sure Team Maclean mine this thread on a regular basis looking for the nuggets that are buried here., just as “they” (The Empire) do while they keep track of this loose band of rebels and trouble makers!
THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE US FREE! GOD BLESS AMERICA. Oh…and one more thing, Happy Martin Luther King Day!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smEqnnklfYs
Whoops,
Happy Martin Luther King Jr. Day!
And I did edit this comment once. I really do think I need to get a new 🧠 scan…because damn…either that or hire a proof reader just for my posts.
Well shit fire and save matches, I even posted the wrong like to the color codes by posting one link twice. I think I need to take a few days off! Wait…I have already been taking a few years off? I guess I am FUCKED! And not in s good way.
https://www.bsr-inc.com/awareness-color-code-chart/
That is the correct color code link…I hope.
Oh…and one more thing. Since I am writing about the Loop Fire Disaster and the deaths of 12 El Cariso Hotshots, which included almost everyone else on the crew being seriously burned, the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster and the deaths of three Mormon Lake Hotshots which includes a fourth hotshot being seriously burned, the South Canyon Fire on Storm King Mountain and the deaths of 9 Prineville Hotshots, three smokejumpers, two helitack and a fourth jumper being seriously burned, and I consider the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and the deaths of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots (which now includes every hotshot disaster fire in history) the MOST important event I am writing about, that should give you some idea where I think the YHFD falls on my completely new and rebuilt, “Oh Shit, Oh Dear, Fuck Me Disaster O’Meter, especially since I grade based on the controversial Bell Curve!
Authors Hint: My brand new, “Oh Shit, Oh Dear, Fuck Me Disaster O’Meter is STILL PEGGED OUT ON THE RED LINE because of the YHFD!
The YHFD was NOT just one more bad thing that can and does happen on dangerous wildfires. That catastrophic event was an ANOMALY…not the norm!
Reply to Gary Olson post on January 21, 2019 at 12:48 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Happy Martin Luther King Jr. Day!
Right back atcha.
———————————————————————-
How long will justice be crucified, and <bTRUTH bear it?
I come to say to you this afternoon, however difficult the moment, however frustrating the hour, it will not be long, because TRUTH crushed to earth will rise again.
How long? Not long… because “no lie can live forever”.
How long? Not long… because “you shall reap what you sow”.
How long? Not long… because “the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice”.
How long? Not long.
Not long.
——————————————————————-
Martin Luther King, Jr.
On the steps of the State Capitol in Montgomery, Alabama, after the successful completion of the Selma to Montgomery March on March 25, 1965.
FYI…My favorite MLK quote, which sums up the ideal future to me is;
Martin Luther King Jr. — ‘I have a dream that one day little black boys and girls will be holding hands with little white boys and girls.’
Because I think that is where it needs to start for a better tomorrow. You know…IMHO.
And like I have written before, if you live in a minority/majority city, state and culture like I did for 18 years, it can really change your perspective on the world.
I am, and always will be grateful to all of the Spanish people (many of them trace their family back more than 400 years to the Conquistadors) who were accepting of me in New Mexico. I mean…that can be a tough place to be an Anglo in.
Unfortunately…I can’t say the same for “Everybody’s Home Town” where I grew up. That has always been one fucking racist cess pool of bigots, misogynists, homophobes, and xenophobia (at least in large part). You know…IMHO. ☹️
Has anyone noticed I have a real hard on for Prescott? 🤔 Maybe I need a back and foot massage with a goat yoga therapy session? Maybe a J would help?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbFAt5wPhAc
Trump actually held a rally in Prescott when he was running for office, (well technically…it was held in Prescott Valley which is where all of the White People live who can’t afford to live in Prescott). IF that gives you any idea of what kind of place it is.
I was frankly really surprised when he did because it’s sctually a very small venue, but I’m sure they made up for it with their unbridled enthusiasm.
I wonder how everyone who works for the USFS feels now (and everyone who works for the USFS voted for Trump in Prescott, I mean…even the people of color who live there…hate people of color) since they are getting ready to miss their second pay check?
Gee…they sent a msn to Washington to burn the place down rather than govern it. And now surprise…surprise…surprise, he is burning the place down rather than govern it?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tXd09NDQW3w
“I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME
Whoops, broke another vow. I said I wasn’t going to be political anymore. My bad, please accept my apologies.
And there are very, very, very, few people of color who live there or even dare visit the place.
And there aren’t ANY Black People who live there…none.
Whoops, I misspoke.
It’s technically all of the White People who can’t afford to live in Prescott who live in Prescott Valley, AND everyone who cooks meth for a living.
And although the meth cooks could afford to live in Prescott, they don’t because they would stand out more. Whereas in Prescott Valley, no one either notices or cares that they always stink like cat urine, no one at all.
I did spend quite a bit of time down on the Mexican Border and I do know the only kind of “Wall” that will keep people out. This is what it looks like;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X9fe4m0UAg4
And the entire fence would have to be continuoually patrorolled, all 200 miles, to keep out drugs and terrorists. out by our military. Tens of thousands of our military.
And then like Sony says, cherries would cost $10.00 a basket, houses would cost twice as much and all of the tomatoes in Georgia would rot in the fields along with almost all other fruits and vegetables in the country.
But the terrorists…they would just fly into JFK or Newark, or in a worse case scenario, come in through the largely unguarded Canadian Border.
And all of the drugs? They would come in the way they do now…through the legal and guarded POE’s.
But…a lot of people who aren’t black, don’t live in Washington D,C. and aren’t Democrats, are getting ready to be really hurt bad by a very bad person. IMHO.
Whoops…two thousand (2000) miles of it.
True Story…
When I went to work in Arizona for the first time in 1992, I was told to report for duty on the first Sunday morning at 0800 hours of that pay period at my new supervisors house.
He (the Soecial Agent-in-Charge, BLM Arizona) met me at his front front door in his underwear scratching his ass.
He handed me a set of keys to my predecessors Tahoe, which had his loaded Sig in the glove box and I drove down to the Mexican Border, Douglas Sector, to work with the Border Patrol for the next three months straight.
On my very first night on patrol with them, I was wandering arounfpd out in the desert all by myself wondering where I went so terribly wrong in life…when suddenly I heard a lot of bushes rustling around me!
I froze in place…not sure what to do, and the next thing I knew, I was surrounded by at least 50 really little Chinese men, who apparently all thought I had caught them and they needed to surrender and go with me quietly so I didn’t hurt them.
Oh…and one more thing. I was really happy they didn’t take my big police flashlight away from me and beat me to death with it. So…it turned out to be a pretty good start to my detail with the Terminally ASSHOLE Border Patrol, unfortunately…it was all downhill from there.
Gary that is good advice to the young firefighter–especially the situational evaluation of the environment and what the crew is doing.
It was obvious that those young men at Yarnell had little understanding of their situation–very little understanding of how those fire blankets costing $500 also can cost your life by depending on them and how ineffective even a house is in a manzanita fire. If they and their bosses had known some factual infromation about the fire behavior of dense and dehydrated manzanit they certainly would not have dropped off into a box canyon where the densest of manzanita growth was apparent and entrapment was a sure thing. Do you think they were foolish enough to believe they could actually save structures–especially the Helm’s surrounded so densely with manzanita? Willis said that is what they do–they could not just sit up there safe in the black–they had to go down to protect that ranch.
Pulaski in the Idaho fire saved 40 of his 45 men by finding a mine tunnel he knew about and holding them hostage with a pistol. Even in that hole with fire all around he lost 5 but would have lost more had they tried to outrun the fire. Oddly, there close to the 19 were the boulder fields both to the south and to the north of the site of deployment. The cameras interviewing Willis were trained to the terrain behind him where they came down and where there was previously much brush and grass and a few boulders. However had they turned the camera to the left and south, they would have within only 70 yards shown a boulder field at least as large as a football field without a bush in in—well I think there was a cactus in one crevice and a small dead manzanita in another that are still there unburned. But in the midst of that field of huge boulder pile there are several spaces completely below the surface where a man or even the full 19 could have crowded into. Talk about situational awareness–Pulaski looked for and found a place to get underground at an old mine tunnel, yet these guys never even considered the boulders. I can tell you I knew all the boulder areas up there and purposely kept close to them–t;hough Joy cursed me for going through them. I think the difference was that the GMHS were brain washed into believing the blankets would save them in that itsy bitsy area they cut out.
You have emphasized the danger of depending on those blankets and rightly so–I know that it was obvious that Marsh and Steed killed the men with their ignorance and breaking of all safety rules and common sense–but then the men were left to believe that the blankets and cutting out would have them survive when in fact they could have well survived in those blankets in either the south boulder field by situational awareness. I do think the blankets must resist some heat and in even if in the center of that boulder field and below ground they would have felt some heat and got smoked as well.
Good you are making a book because you do not skirt the truth and a publication such as you would put out will be good and factual reading.
WTKTT,
I have a question and a request on the following ABC15-clip-18-crossfade with their news helicopter
( https://youtu.be/NSYpnPMfPmc ).
Do you have access or knowledge of the other 18 (or more – possibly 31) of the ABC15 News clips?
Are the clips all from the afternoon or any earlier in the day or morning?
If so, would you please post them or at least direct me to them. Thank you and Happy New Year.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 20, 2019 at 1:28 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> I have a question and a request on the following ABC15-clip-18-crossfade
>> with their news helicopter ( snip – see URL above ).
>>
>> Do you have access or knowledge of the other 18
>> (or more – possibly 31) of the ABC15 News clips?
ABC15 ( Phoenix ) posted a video the very night of the tragedy with a bunch of clips taken by their ‘Air15’ chopper earlier that day, over Yarnell.
That original video is still sitting on their ABC15 YouTube channel at the link below.
There are actually 35 separate ‘clips’ in this video, and the workup I did is, in fact, ‘clip 18’.
YouTube channel name: ABC15 Arizona
VIDEO: Yarnell Hill Widlfire
Published: June 30, 2013
12,460 views
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jx_ZUKfjcc
>> RTS also asked…
>>
>> Are the clips all from the afternoon or any
>> earlier in the day or morning?
ABC15’s ‘Air15’ media chopper was over Yarnell in the late afternoon.
For almost an hour… from approximately 3:50 PM to about 4:45 PM.
There is NO ‘timestamp’ information in any of their published video clips.
The reason we can be pretty sure of WHEN the ‘Sky15’ chopper was over the fire is because we can hear its pilot ( on the Air-To-Air channel recordings ) requesting permission from Air Attack to fly the Yarnell Hill fire ( circa 3:50 PM ), and then again informing Air Attack he was done and leaving the airspace ( circa 4:45 PM ).
As for earlier that day… there was another media chopper that flew the fire in the early afternoon.
ABC’s “News20” media chopper ( with pilot Sam Farris ).
That aerial footage first appeared in this online video published the next day, July 1, 2013…
YouTube channel name: Tammy Rose ( ABC 20 field reporter )
VIDEO: News 20 coverage of the Yarnell Fire
Published: July 1, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rlpp_wBOKs
Pilot Sam Farris himself appears in the video, being interviewed on the ground..
He says that by the time HE left the fire… no structures had burned yet.
Followup….
You said…
>> I have a question and a request on the following
>> ABC15-clip-18-crossfade with their news helicopter
>> ( https://youtu.be/NSYpnPMfPmc ).
I meant to add something regarding this ‘crossfade’ video.
When it fades down from the original helicopter video into the equivalent Google Earth layout… I only added a very few ORANGE lines on the ground indicating where ‘fire’ was located.
The labeling that appears points this out as ‘VISIBLE Fire ( only )’.
There was certainly a LOT more fire down there on the ground at that time, underneath all the smoke.
But I only ‘annotated’ some of the fire that was CLEARLY visibile in the video footage, without attempting to GUESS what else was under all that smoke.
What intrigued me most was that obvious ( and clearly visible ) line of fire in the upper right of the video. That’s what I ‘zoomed in’ on.
That was obviously just the continuation of the same fireline as seen in Christoper Mackenzie’s photos and videos taken at the ‘last rest spot’, and it is now clearly seen ‘sweeping’ across that middle bowl and approaching the mouth of the box canyon.
But obviously there was a LOT more fire in that ‘middle bowl’, even at that time… and it was ALL racing across it, with spotting and almost horizontal flames.
At that point in time… the situation out in the middle bowl was probably more like total ‘area ignition’, rather than some clearly drawn ‘fireline’.
The “total area ignition” you allude to, was likely captured in the one of the earliest and most widely-seen videos released not long after the entrapment. I can’t remember the name of the person filming, but the shot was taken from the valley floor on the road to Congress looking north at the Weavers. The blow-out at the end of the shot was gut-wrenching, due to the realization that the crew likely had died within seconds of that event.
Yes.
The Matt Oss video, filmed between 4:30 and 5:00 PM on June 30, 2013.
YouTube User: Matt Oss
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire from Congress, AZ
Published: June 30, 2013
Views: 357,139
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT1Z5l0hHYk
YouTube Video Description:
A time-lapse shot on 6/30/13 at 4:30 PM of the Yarnell Hill Wildfire. Viewed from the south off of highway 89, the flames reach the peak of the mountain. Created by Matt Oss
Agreed. The massive and intense fire behavior on the Matt Oss video at the 11- to 15-second timeframe was likely the death knell of the GMHS
Keep in mind, though, that Matt’s video was a TIME-LAPSE.
It didn’t happen AS quickly as the video shows.
The end came quickly for them, for sure… but still not “quick enough”… if you catch my drift.
Let me also just say that, all-in-all, there really is a MASSIVE amount of photographic and video and recorded radio traffic evidence associated with this National Tragedy.
I mean… it’s almost like just about everyone involved thought they were on a sight-seeing trip to Disney World and just kept whipping their cameras out ALL DAY.
There is a LOT to process ( and we are STILL doing that ).
Author John Maclean was not wrong , recently, when he pointed out the same thing in a published on-camera interview.
From the November, 2018 on-camera interview Maclean did with Ryan McNeice of the “Spokane Talks” show on FOX 28 News, and is still sitting on YouTube at this link…
https://youtu.be/-gyeg-IzBt8
John Maclean said…
——————————————————————–
“This is one of the most photographed incidents on record.
You’re not gonna know everything about what was said and the
click-click-click metaprocesses of the time… but we know a LOT.“
——————————————————————–
That’s also the interview where Maclean said he’s ready to write ( in his book? ) that Eric Marsh was ‘probably’ supposed to be acting ‘lookout’ for his crew during their risky move.
Quote…
“It’s not absolutely clear that they had a… uh… Marsh acting as lookout, but he PROBABLY was.”
No word yet if Maclean will then also address the issue of, if Marsh really was ‘out ahead of them’ and suppopsed to be acting as their ‘forward lookout’, then WHY did he totally FAIL that responsibility?
Totally agree. Everybody walks around with a videographic recording device these days. BUT……there is so much more that has never seen the light of day. One crucial item of many i desire to have a full copy of is the AIR TO GROUND audio recordings. You can plainly hear in the helmet cam videos there was more communications between DIV Alpha and Air Attack amongst the “mayday” traffic, but we can only here AA’s side because of terrain/line of site reception issues with the helmet cam trio.. He wasn’t talking to himself.
I want the AIR TO GROUND audio!
WTKTT,
Thank you for posting all the news clips and crossfades and thank you for all the good work putting all those together.
And good catch on the intense horizontal fire behavior, generally known as Horizontal Roll Vortices (HRV).
This is a link for an excellent idealized image of Horizontal Roll Vortices. Source: Finney, M.A. et al (2015) Role of buoyant flame dynamics in wildfire spread. PNAS.
( http://www.pnas.org/content/112/32/9833 )
It is particularly instructive that TFLD(T) Tyson Esquibel, a hybrid municipal FF, recognized in his Unit Log, the HRV fire behavior for what it was, an indicator of very extreme burning conditions.
The publication listed below is excellent; it details extreme fire behavior and covers HRVs quite well. There is also a Part 2 version. Chapter 7 begins to cover Vortices and Wildland Fire and HRV begins on p. 95.
Synthesis of Knowledge of Extreme Fire Behavior: Volume I for Fire Managers by authors Paul A. Werth, Brian E. Potter, Craig B. Clements, Mark A. Finney, Scott L. Goodrick, Martin E. Alexander, Miguel G. Cruz, Jason A. Forthofer, and Sara S. McAllister. USDA Forest Service, Pacific Northwest Research Station, General Technical Report, PNW-GTR-854, November 2011.
( https://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_gtr854.pdf ) Link here.
You can order these by mailing or emailing to the address on the inside cover (they are free – your tax dollars at work).
The above is courtesy of Joy A. Collura’s amazingly insightful Yarnell Hill Fire website ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) at the respective post link below.
Be sure and view the HRV fire behavior photo (Figure 5b. image) of the Bass River Fire July 22, 1977; New Jersey Pine Barrens. Eagleswood Volunteer Fire Department Four Fatalities (the FFs in this photograph all died as a result of the extreme HRV fire behavior in the photo)
You really have to ask yourself … WTF were they thinking trying to attempt a frontal assault on that kind of fire behavior with their wimpy hose?
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/08/06/Who-Do-We-Continue-to-See-And-Read-About-as-the-Likely-Participants-in-the-Strongly-Inferred-Sesame-to-Shrine-Corridor-Fuel-Fire-Break-Firing-Operation )
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post January 21, 2019 at 11:30 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It is particularly instructive that TFLD(T) Tyson Esquibel,
>> a hybrid municipal FF, recognized in his Unit Log, the HRV
>> fire behavior for what it was, an indicator of very extreme
>> burning conditions.
Too bad a TFLD(t) knew enough to recognize those ‘extreme’ circumstances,when there was still enough time to get HIS resources to safety…
…but an ‘elite’ Type 1 Hotshot Crew did not.
Oh… that’s right… I forgot.
When you lose your situational awareness AND you don’t post lookouts AND you lose sight of the fire AND you drop into an explosive fuel bed AND you are not communicating effectively with your overhead and other resources… you don’t get the chance to even realize what is happening… until it’s too late.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The publication listed below is excellent; it details extreme
>> fire behavior and covers HRVs quite well.
https://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_gtr854.pdf
From PDF page 63 ( of 158 pages )…
—————————————————————————-
Summary of Interaction Effects
As the individual spot fires grow together, they will begin to interact. This interaction will increase the burning rates, heat release rates, and flame height until the distance between them reaches a critical level. At the critical separation distance, the flames will begin to merge together and burn with the maximum rate and flame height. The more spot fires, the bigger the increase in burning rate and flame height.
————————————————————————–
Yep.
Fire Behavior 101.
Spotting = More spotting = Intense Spotting = ( KABOOM! ) Area Ignition.
Even Rick McKenzie WARNED the GM Hotshots that very morning.
He told them, face-to-face, up at the Model Creek ICP…
“Y’all be careful up on that mountain. That brush is so thick that
you can’t even crawl through it… and that manzanita burns HOT!
If the fire comes down off the mountain, man, watch out. It’ll BLOW UP.”
And that is exactly what happened, later that afternoon.
Just a footnote…
Regarding that original ABC15 footage posted HERE the night of the tragedy…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jx_ZUKfjcc
That is the footage that got used EXTENSIVELY in many, many other news reports.
But sometimes they would say it was ‘Air15’ footage and sometimes they would say it came from ‘Sky15’.
That’s the same chopper… just being referred to with two different names.
Also…. by the way…
The very FIRST clip in that ABC15 video was actually taken circa 3:50 PM as ‘Air15’ was ‘arriving’ at the Yarnell Fire.
They were approaching Yarnell from the southeast ( from Phoenix ) and they were still getting permission from Air Attack ( Rory Collins ) to enter the airspace.
So that FIRST clip is actually looking from SOUTH to NORTH, over the Glen Ilah area and the ‘middle bowl’ area.
The ‘box canyon’ ( and the eventual deployment site, is actually visible there in the lower left corner of that FIRST ‘Air15’ video clip.
Notice that the ‘fire’ out in the middle bowl ( at that time )… is actually TWO different firelines.
The one on the top would be the one to advance towards ( and through ) the Harper Canyon and Shrine Road areaa, and the one on the bottom is the one that was about to start ‘racing’ across the middle bowl, towards the box canyon.
If you look closely at Chrisopher Mackenzie’s photos and videos, you can actually SEE these TWO different firelines, the same as they are being shown by the helicopter at around that same time.
The reason its hard to see in MacKenzie’s photos videos is that the smoke from the fireline that was about to sweep across the middle bowl was obscuring the other one behind it from where MacKenzie was taking his photos.
WTKTT,
Thanks for the links to the videos, always something new to learn and question. When the fire splits into two different fires in the middle bowl did they actually split around the retardant line? I seem to remember photos of a retardant line on the toe of that slope. Just trying to wrap my head around possible strategies and certainly a fire split around a retardant line could change everything.
Just FYI…
Other workups/crossfades I remember doing for more of the Helicopter video clips…
The ‘News20’ footage, taken early afternoon, with pilot Sam Farris…
News20-Helicopter-1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUTVCthHZkk
This is the one I was talking about above…
It’s the FIRST clip iin the ABC15 video, when they were looking from SOUTH to NORTH.
It’s about 3:50 PM ( or a little earlier ).
The box canyon is in the lower left corner.
There are already TWO separate firelines out in the ‘middle bowl’.
ABC15-clip-01-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmz6HpmzXEs
( Continued next ‘Reply’ due to 2-links-per-post limit )
ABC15-clip-02-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVjGY-hSlX8
ABC15-clip-03-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq9JzreI6-E
NOTE: ABC15 video clip 4 ( FOUR ) is actually just another
CLOSER look at what is seen in video clip 1 ( ONE ).
ABC15-clip-04-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cj3ErMUl4c
By ‘closer look’… I meant that THEY ( Air15 ) flew in closer.
This isn’t just me ‘zooming in’ on the Clip 1 footage’.
They ( themselves ) went back and did another CLOSER video shot of what they had already filmed in ‘Clip 1’…. the fire developing in the ‘middle bowl’.
ABC15-clip-05-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsX0dxkuK14
ABC15-clip-18-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSYpnPMfPmc
WTKTT,
Thank you so much for these video clips and all the work you put into them. I have a question regarding this video clip beginning at the 1:21 timeframe that indicates the rapidly expanding fire progression in the ABC15-clip-01-crossfade clip
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmz6HpmzXEs ).
I think I already know the answer. These progression perimeters appear to from the SAIT-SAIR, correct?
Reply to Robert the Second post on January 21, 2019 at 9:35 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Thank you so much for these video clips and all the work
>> you put into them. I have a question regarding this video
>> clip beginning at the 1:21 timeframe that indicates the
>> rapidly expanding fire progression in the ABC15-clip-01-crossfade clip
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmz6HpmzXEs
>>
>> I think I already know the answer. These progression perimeters
>> appear to from the SAIT-SAIR, correct?
Yes.
Way back in early 2014, when I did that workup on that FIRST video clip in the ‘Air15’ ( filmed circa 3:50 PM )… I decided to take the opportunity to just translate those fire progression charts that appeared in BOTH the SAIT and ADOSH to ‘3d perspective’, exactly as they were published, for good, bad or ugly.
I’m now in the same camp as Woodsman… and I think you can ( for the most part ) take those original SAIT/ADOSH fire progession charts and throw them in the trashcan.
Especially the one that shows the fireline reaching the ‘saddle’ where they descended into the canyon at the SAME TIME the fire was entering the mouth of the box canyon.
Other video and photographic evidence has since emerged which proves that is absolute bullshit.
But it was what they ( Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, Brad Mayhew and the rest of the SAI team ) NEEDED the ‘fireline’ charts to show in order to support the ‘narrative’ they had already decided on.
You know… bullshit such as…
1. The reason they had no alternative other than deploying is because they ‘saw fire ahead of and behind them, up at the saddle’ at the same moment.
2. No one knew they had left the black, or where they were going.
3. No one had any ‘verifiable’ communications with them for a 30 minute period, from 4:03 PM to 4:37 PM.
Yada… yada…
YES INDEED – PURE BOVINE FECULENCE made to seem like the truth
RTS In that clip from the helicopter shows a straight line fire edge separated from a bowed edge were you able to determine the location of that straight edge? It appears to be on the west side of the boulder mountain and west of the north end of Yarnell and the U-Sto It Storage units and I imagine you and perhaps WTKTT both are good at google maps and have pinpointed that particular clip.
https://www.ttbook.org/interview/fighting-wildfires-one-few-women-hotshot-crew
Oh…and one more thing.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
JANUARY 18, 2019 AT 10:13 AM
Reply to Gary Olson post on January 17, 2019 at 10:42 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Me too, I think Marsh ran from a location either at or near
>> the Helms Ranch so he could die with his crew
And that will always leave the gut-wrenching truth that if Marsh was near safety, out ahead of them, but still had the time to run BACK to where THEY were… then that will always mean that THEY also had the time to run the same distance TOWARDS Marsh… and ( perhaps ) survive.
The only thing Marsh should have been yelling into the radio was…
“You have to RUN!!!… FORWARD!!!…. DO IT NOW!!!!!!!”
And I say; I’m pretty sure I have told everyone why the crew died. It’s because under extrem stress, they folllowed their training because their brains had ceased to reliably function and they reverted to their training and learned behavior which included muscle memory to deploy their fire shelters.
I have never told you that I also know why Eric Marsh died. When Marsh realized he had ordered his crew to their deaths over the objections of Captain Jesse Steed three times and I think it is true Steed told Marsh in one of his last radio transmissions, “You killed us.” To which I believe Marsh replied, “I know…I’m sorry.”
At that point Marsh crossed over into Condition Black and his brain ceased to be able to logically process cognitive thought because he was in a full combat mode.
Condition White: Unaware and unprepared.
Condition Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation.
Condition Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention.
Condition Red: Is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped.
Marsh probably ran through the first four conditions in less than a few seconds and went almost straight to Condition Black where he experienced auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, loss of fine motor skill, spiked blood pressure while both his brain and body went through a lot of other physiological and psychological changes instantly and finally it affected his brain to properly take in and process information and so he was unable to think, “They should run to me.” As a result….all he could think of was, “I must run to them.”
And so they all died because they had received deeply flawed training that as inadequate, deeply flawed, incomplete and grossly outdated and the NWCG has yet to accept these facts and develope corrective training which has put wildland firefighters at risk of serious injury and death since the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and will until they….WAKE THE FUCK UP AND STSRT DOING THRUR FUCKING JOBS!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper
This training has been widely available and given to law enforcement people for decades you…STUPID FUCKS!
And in a final twist of irony, Jeff Cooper’s academy is located in Paulden, Az, which is just a few miles from Chino Valley and Chino Valley is what…about 15 miles from Prescott? Eric Marsh lived in Chino Valley. How fucking IRONIC is that?
Am I the only one who can see the relationship and value of cross over training between FIRE and law enforcement?
We learned that just because something is unthinable doesn’t mean it can’t happen…didn’t we?
We learned that just because something is UNTHINKABLE doesn’t mean it can’t happen…didn’t we?
Law enforcement personnel train on a regular basis to encounter and cope with the unthinkable. All competent law enforcement personnel are mentally and physically prepared to encounter and cope with the unthinkable at all times.
To the best of my knowledge, FIRE neither trains nor prepare to encounter and cope with the unthinkable. Eric Marsh may not even have realized the changes both his body and mind slammed through in an instant that left him in Condition Black which may have been a state he never trained for or expected to encounter.
I never did while I was a hotshot supervisor for 8 years and a hotshot crew boss for 7 years. I was never taught anything about the conditions I have written about in this chain of posts. I would have been as clueless and as unprepared as I believe Marsh was to appropriately respond under similar circumstances to save either my crews life or even my own.
The lesson learned there was that you never cut out around y9urself and pile brush in a dense manzanita growth area then depend on those blankets to save your ass. I might have been fooled by the situation myself if I was ignorant of a few things and I was but had damn good instincts and was able to observe the fire behavior laying flames down what looked to be in 50-100 foot extensions even going toward Peeples Valley. I knew the fire was deadly and expending a consuming energy taking everything in its path. But I might have been buffaloed into thinking something like a blanket would protect me in a cleared out space of say 100 ft across –what they did I estimated. There was absolutely not chance of survival there if they knew that extreme energy of the fire.
I knew that fire increased in velocity going up hill–that is common sense–but I did not know it doubled in velocity ever small increment of 10 degrees of slope. That is a fast progression–10 degree at 11mph then 20 degress to 22mph 30 degrees to 44mph and 40 degrees at 88mph and finally about the slope they came down at 50 degress it would be headed up the hill at 176 mph. I can only estimate the slope where they were at to be about 20 degrees.
The other thing is the chimney effect of canyons. If the wind is oblique to the canyon you might feel no wind and in Sawmill Canyon where you could hear the winds passing over and even the wind whistling though the trees in the distance. There was a bend in that canyon so that you seldom got a wind up through it. Yet Yarnell, those canyons when the wind reversed became the best of funnels.
Did they not know a thunder storm at higher elevations would bring cold air rushing down to the hot lower elevations? They were looking at the thunderstorms just as we were.
Reading about how many times fire fighters are killed by flanking a fire that suddenly reversed also seems to be something that should be common knowledge to a fire fighter.
What in all that good life saving information did Marsh and Steed not understand before they put themselves in the Red by looking down the loaded revolver with the devil’s finger on the trigger? To me, it would be like a white boy walking down Watts in a pin stripped suit during the burning of it by the blacks- where even a truck driver was pulled from his truck and near beaten to death and would have if some good black man had not covered him. But the water copters did not even know where these men were. But the worst of it is that Marsh and Steed not only risked their own lives that way–and it had to be knowingly–but they took 17 young men with them on their suicide journey.
I can not be but angry that the truth of the matter does not come out. The FS and State will now continue to allow those type individuals to operate because they have in effect made heroes out of Marsh and Steed. Nothing could be farther from the truth and if that is not faced up to then more of these deaths will happen due to the practices of the Marsh types.
There on that little hill where Donut was I did find a hole in the bouldery area where you could go completely below ground–but only one man would have survived that hill and I believe where he was at certainly would have killed him unless he knew of the hole that is there. It was within 50 yards of the top of that hill–And I also wonder why those men did not make a run for the boulder area very near where they were. If you hike to the deployment area you will see that. I was thinking of those boulders as a possible retreat from early on even before the fire changed direction. But maybe they were inexperienced and did not know a boulder area the size of a football field could save you especially if there were areas to get below the surface. There was no manzanita to be cut–nothing but rock around you, yet they chose to pile more brush around themselves. In Nagasaki and Heroshima the few people that survived were either below the surface or shielded by a thick wall of sorts. This was releasing that type energy and what saved the Helms was their walls. Those boulders would have done the same for those men–and even as I read about the Man Gulch was it two men that got beyond a ridge that blocked off enough heat they suvived?
Whew–who trained those bosses in fire fighting wisdom? And who would even allow such individuals to advance to where they could mass kill 17 men? And the FS and State wants to make heroes out of them>what a shame to veil the truth considering the consequences.
These are my opinions and I know I harp a lot about it–But I know the loss of a loved one for much the same reason those men died. I will continue to complain because I think it is the proper thing to do. Certainly I have little power to change things but someone that does have the power may read and understand the gravity of the Yarnell tragedy and look beyond the hype and instead investigate objectively into the situation.
Gary,
I’ve struggled with this for a while now because, well, I guess it speaks for itself:
“I have never told you that I also know why Eric Marsh died. When Marsh realized he had ordered his crew to their deaths over the objections of Captain Jesse Steed three times and I think it is true Steed told Marsh in one of his last radio transmissions, “You killed us.” To which I believe Marsh replied, “I know…I’m sorry.””
The same exact account of the last intra-crew radio traffic was told to me as well. That must have been back in 2014.
Since then I’ve only heard of a couple of versions that varied slightly in wording. Only one who thought this last conversation was not between Marsh and Steed.
Damn…………………….
Damn is right. And although I imagine the words I wrote may not be exact, I think the meaning is the same.
Gary–on the idea of words and usage–perhaps we should ban the gook word–at least reduce it to the “g” word. After all it was a word used to demonize a people. In order to stir men to hatred enough to kill they need to lable the enemy with some derogatory word. In the war against the Arabs, rag head was used and now we should call that the “r” word perhaps. I stand corrected on that one–we all need corrections here and again.
Political correctness goes a long ways, especially if you are running for office and maybe even if you are not–and definitely in certain circles.
One thing about your dogs they love you whatever language you use when you stump your toe. Do you have one?
Dog–mans best friend–not your toe–whew I could use a language class refresher
Woodsman,
I think it was more like Acting GMHS Supt. Steed telling DIVS A Marsh either ‘we can’t make it’ or ‘we’re not gonna make it’ and the DIVS A response was ‘I understand and I’m sorry.’
And then it was Steed: “Eric, you’ve really f**ked us this time.”
RTS,
Thanks. Without naming your source, (because I’m not willing name mine either) was the person that told you that actually there? My source was not but was very close to the situation. The only reason I ask is because of the weight of the account in terms of how far down the line the story goes would be important.
One thing the SAIT may not rely on is that nobody will talk if told, threatened, coerced or whatever to keep their mouth shut. Either for the betterment of the industry, because it’s the right thing to do or because they are gossip prone, it’s just not gonna happen….and it clearly has not happened. Thank you for your contributions!
Well I tried to get too fancy with words on that one. I should have just said:
No matter what the assholes say, people are gonna talk. They have and will confinue to do so.
Woodsman,
It’s an ethics thing ya know. A man has to keep his word.
They know what they know and have what evidence they have, and it’s ultimately up to them to come forward.
Those still employed have the Sword of Damocles hanging over them, threatening Insubordination or failure to follow orders if they do other than what they have received supervisory “direction.”
( https://www.history.com/news/what-was-the-sword-of-damocles )
Yes I totally understand that. That’s why I was careful in how I asked the question. It would help me to know how close your version is to what actually was said. How about this. Can I take your version to the bank or is it close to what was said?
Remember, I absolutely DO NOT want names other than confirmation that it was between Marsh & Steed.
Thanks, man.
Woodsman,
It was close to what was said ( either “we can’t make it or we’re not gonna make it”)
And yes, it was between Marsh & Steed.
Correction
It should read:
( either “we can’t make it” OR “we’re not gonna make it” )
Thanks!
Woodsman-
I have heard from 13 different men in the industry who since August 2013 was the first I heard about Steed and Marsh radio from actual FFs-
Aug 2013 report was from FF who was on Shrine and I was told on Kimberly LeRoy’s land where he stood and I was cleaning debris on the Flippens.
Oct 2013 report was from FF who was on Miner Rd and he lives there- he can still be talked to if I need to go find him- Sonny knows who he is- he shot himself after the fire. Yeah, people do not know all the internal stuff Sonny and I know about the trauma this fire has cased not just locals but FFs too. Sonny, did he hit his heart when he did it or his lung…I am blanking…he came to your cabin…he was the one who gave us the business cards of what officials were out on Mina Rd with Byron Kimball.
Nov 2014 report was from FF over by the church in Yarnell and so on….but that was my earliest I personally heard but the MOST talked about was when Sonny was playing black jack at the casino and the academy attendees were partying alongside Sonny at the tables and lips got loose that night- it was a night both Sonny and I could have written a best seller book on just that night alone…it was off the charts. Reason we know more data needs to come out…
Reply to Joy A Collura post on January 22, 2019 at 5:38 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> I have heard from 13 different men in the industry who
>> since August 2013 was the first I heard about Steed
>> and Marsh radio from actual FFs-
Sorry… I’m not quite fully understanding that statement.
Are you saying that, since August of 2013, you have heard from 13 ( THIRTEEN ) different ‘men in the industry’ who ALL heard the same ‘final radio conversation(s)’ between Marsh and Steed, on June 30, 2013?
>> Joy A Collura also said…
>>
>> Aug 2013 report was from FF who was on Shrine …
>>
>> Oct 2013 report was from FF who was on Miner Rd…
>>
>> Nov 2014 report was from FF over by the church in Yarnell…
>>
>> and so on….
Does the ‘and so on…’ amount to 10 more FFs?
Did ANY of these FFs happen to say HOW it was they overhead these final radio conversations between Marsh and Steed?
What I mean is… on what RADIO FREQUENCY they heard them?
Air-To-Ground? TAC 1? TAC 2? Some OTHER frequency?
Did any of them claim they heard things over the GM Crew Net channel… or ( maybe ) just happened to be standing near someone who DID have the GM Crew Net channel plugged into their radio that day?
SIDENOTE: It’s obviously not likely anyone could have heard any final radio conversations BETWEEN Marsh and Steed over the Air-To-Ground radio channel, but it would still be good to know if anyone actually SAID that’s where they heard something.
Sidenote your sidenote: do you remember what Willis claimed in interviews concerning communications between himself and GM and/or Marsh on June 30, 2013? I’m asking you because what would take me days to find probably only takes you 10-15 minutes. Thank you
Exact words if you’re able
(Hope there’s not a Woodsman shitstorm in the forecast but it smells awful damn likely….if you know what I mean…)
Reply to Woodsman post on
January 22, 2019 at 10:41 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Sidenote your sidenote: do you remember
>> what Willis claimed in interviews concerning
>> communications between himself and GM
>> and/or Marsh on June 30, 2013?
Running out of room down here so I left a longer ‘Reply’ up above as a new parent comment…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476701
YES. I, Joy A Collura, am saying that, since August of 2013, I have heard from 13 ( THIRTEEN ) different ‘men in the FIRE and MEDICAL industry’ who ALL heard the same ‘final radio conversation(s)’ between Marsh and Steed, on June 30, 2013. There is areas due to local folks I have tried to encourage and have them tell their stories – I have not only once or twice but always encouraged to this very day and RTS was present when I addressed one for the fifth time who was out on Mina Rd. area and was near Willis and Moser- He told his story to RTS direct but I want a post here on them talking for themselves.
Yes my numbers are not just numbers
I could name where what and whens and such-
about radios- I would jeopardize people even doing it anonymous and YES if I am given a lawyer who can go up against these others but RTS had it right- man has to keep his word but I do hope they come forward themselves…ALSO I have run a lot of specific areas with lawyers and believe it or not – not many want to take on certain entities— shocking huh
Hopefully they speak some day- I always encourage it- always.
If I straight forward answered you there would be immediate situations and I am not first hand person but yes there is more information- please refer to obtaining Prescott and State public records to find some answers there
after the government shut down of course-
no FOIAs being filled right now
In a sense- if you go LOOK at my prior comments I have in code spoken some answers too.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on
January 22, 2019 at 10:11 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> YES. I, Joy A Collura, am saying that, since August
>> of 2013, I have heard from 13 ( THIRTEEN ) different
>> ‘men in the FIRE and MEDICAL industry’ who ALL
>> heard the same ‘final radio conversation(s)’ between
>> Marsh and Steed, on June 30, 2013.
To what extent does whatever ALL these people were ‘reporting’ to you match up?
Were they ALL basically saying they heard something along the lines of…
Steed: “We are not going to make it”
Marsh: “I know. I’m sorry”
Because that is actually the context of this ‘thread’… and you seem to be jumping in to CONFIRM that is what you have also heard from no less then 13 different people.
So I’m just trying to be SURE what you are CONFIRMING.
If that’s NOT what some/all of these 13 people told you they heard… then what was it they were telling you they DID hear?
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> about radios- I would jeopardize people
>> even doing it anonymous
Not quite sure how simply revealing what ‘radio channel’ someone might have said they heard something on ( without naming any names ) could possibly ‘jeopardize’ (??) anyone… but okay. Whatever.
As I am going through Arizona Republic Reporter’s Tom Story’s files and notes they being Arizona State Forestry – they had a Word Doc in his file and in it – it states something you will find very interesting
I know people think I do not take the time to fully answer you as I normally would on some areas since you ask it but I do run questions through a few folks to see where to keep the focus because I rather stay focused to getting more data out so instead of blogging this I will post it here:
RIGHT FROM THE FILE and make your own assessments -k:
Thursday, July 25, 2013, 3:51:26 PM FILE-
Needing ac power to recharge my laptop. I went back the ICP in Peeples Valley.
Downloaded my stuff, captioned and transmitted. All the time I was listening to the radio about how DPS was bringing the survivors out and was going to land down near the intersection of Hays Ranch Road and Highway 89 where I had seen them setting up. I almost, almost , went down there. But decided to play dumb and stay put. The other media didn’t know about it. The folks were making arrangements to shield the survivors and I just didn’t want any part of it. My killer instinct has mellowed somewhat with age.
I left the fire, drove home via Prescott.”
In same file was this:
CREATED Saturday, September 08, 2018, 5:50:38 PM
MODIFIED Tuesday, September 24, 2013, 5:39:43 PM
_README file
content::
Tom Story is a freelance photographer who works for AP and AZ Republic. He’s also been under NIFC contract He was freelancing June 30. He sent the photos to AP minutes after he took them on June 30. He provided photos to Bob Kuhn, aviation specialist for the accident investigation team. See TomStory.com
Some areas on John Dougherty’s own dropbox is missing some photos and could have happened on upload time but Marlene’s brown home that Tom took pic of had six photos and John’s shows only two.
Above verbiage has always been in John’s dropbox just a refresher
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&ik=4b8f470938&attid=0.1&permmsgid=msg-f:1622975620337082112&th=1685f7ba514f9f00&view=att&disp=safe&realattid=1685f7b3df44e1b79e21
Alan Sinclair, Willis, et al video clip above
Burn out or burn back question seems to want to be answered and whether or not it had any part in the killing we are not able to determine at this time. Two men doing torch work above the Shrine was redacted–it would be nice to know why.
But the question in my mind is why would you need a water truck up in the Shrine Area and was it coming out of where I saw the two men on video torching the left side of that dirt road? Is it standard procedure for a water truck to follow the Peeples Valley Firemen around even into the backwoods? And what exactly were the Peeples Valley Fire Department doing back in that area of rough dirt road that might require a water truck? Can you rely on what they said they were doing? I rather listen to someone outside that group after the interview I witnessed with Joy.
I might think you were doing some burning back in there and needed the water tanker near by in case someone got himself on fire or something needed dousing. I would like some input on that from someone well experienced in these matters. Thank you,
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 17, 2019 at 8:07 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> As I am going through Arizona Republic Reporter’s Tom Story’s
>> files and notes they being Arizona State Forestry – they had
>> a Word Doc in his file and in it – it states something you
>> will find very interesting
If the timeframe Tom Story is referring to when he went back to the ICP to recharge his laptop is right after he shot his photos at the Ranch House Restaurant… then yea… that was a very confusing time.
At that time… even IC Roy Hall ( at the ICP ) thought a ‘recovery operation’ was going to be needed… and people actually continued to believe that even AFTER the radio calls finally went out about ’19 confirmed dead’ at the deployment site.
That’s because someone had told DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 to be searching for MORE than just the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
From Type 2 IC Roy Hall’s SAIT Interview notes…
—————————————————————————————————
17:39 ( 5:39 PM )
LOFR Dana Schimdt working with Yavapai County Sherriff Office.
Working with Scott Masher, 6 lifeline helos ordered to assist with recovery.
18:28 ( 6:28 PM )
Byron Kimble and Todd Able requested a type 2 crew at Ranch House
restaurant to assist with recovery.
( One minute later… the bad news… no ‘medevac’ needed… )
18:29 ( 6:29 PM )
Musser called. 19 confirmed no medevac necessary. Scene secured.
18:34 – 18:41 ( 6:34 – 6:41 PM )
Same confirmation from Todd Able, Byron Kimble and Willis.
———————————————————————————————–
From Pilot David Morgan’s SAIT interview notes…
NOTE: Helicopter 215KA was the red/white chopper that is seen in all the Panebaker Air Study videos doing bucket drops in/around Peeples Valley that day.
Call sign was ‘Kilo Alpha’ ( KA ) and not ‘QA’. The SAIT got it wrong in their notes.
Interview with Pilot David Morgan 215QA
Interviewed by ( SAIT )… Brad, Tim, and Mike
—————————————————————————————————
Went to Wickenberg to refuel, the wind event had stopped.
The Ranger ( DPS Helicopter ) unit had located the hotshots and he had started rigging for repel over at the helibase for a rescue mission.
—————————————————————————————————
SAIT investigation notes from their inteview with Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’,
Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark
—————————————————————————————————
As soon as Bravo 3 leaves, I called life flight…..crew down. Need a flight with capacity for 25 patients. Two cranes were working the line in division Z going back and forth. It was kinda nasty and charged right on through town (Div Z).
We ran until dark, all propane tanks were venting.
Ranger 58 finds the crew and called. 18 confirmed.
Peterson reported to helibase. Peterson doesn’t know if we can repel. I told him to be repel ready.
I am thinking that we are still looking for 2 but don’t need a lifeline.
It’s dark.
——————————————————————————————————
NOTE: When they say they were ‘still looking for 2′ even after the call of ’18 confirmed dead’ came in from the deployment site… this could be a reference to testimony from DPS Ranger 58 officers who said they were initially told ( by some still-unknown person ) to be searching for ALL of the following…
1. The Granite Mountain Hotshots
2. A ‘Division Supervisor’ ( DIVSA )
3. A bulldozer and its operator.
So even when the ’18 confirmed’ call came in… it was ( apparently ) unclear that DIVSA was also among the dead… and so they just continued looking ( for an unknown additional amount of time ) for ‘DIVSA’ and the ‘dozer operator’.
From the SAIT interview notes with the DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 Officers…
—————————————————————————————————–
( Pilot ) Cliff ( Brunsting ) relayed to B3 we have 19 confirmed…
“fatalities?” B3 asked.
Affirm.
( Officer ) Eric ( Tarr ) was looking for 20-22 ppl
he was told it would be the crew, dozer and a DIVS.
So they walked the area very well.
—————————————————————————————————-
We still don’t know when ( or how ) all this got straightened out, and everyone involved ( YCSO and Arizona DPS included ) finally understood that the ‘DIVSA’ they were looking for was, in fact, also the superintendent of the GM Hotshots and he perished with them… and that dozer operator Paul Morin was,, in fact, ‘accounted for’.
Multiple statements by Yarnell Hill fire managers (overhead) speaking in terms of using aircraft to “assist with recovery?” Recovery in the fire/rescue world means retrieve the body or remains. They were planning on removing the bodies from the hill asap. Possibly in an attempt to hide what happened from the media and protect the survivors which of course would completely botch any kind of scene investigation. Did these managers succeed in this plan to contaminate the scene at any level?
I don’t trust any of it. And I certainly am not naive enough to believe something did or did not occurr based on the evidence being available. This was a massive cover-up from the moment it happened and is such to this day.
If it weren’t for the professionalism of state police officer TARR, the efforts & intentions of the Prescott, Arizona wildfire mafia to cover-up the accident would have been much more successful than it was. The house of lies and half truths is crumbling one brick at a time. Fortunately there at least SOME public servants left with integrity. For example there are those that believe the highest honor to GM would be for the whole truth to be known & studied by future generations in order to fight fires more safely & effectively. This would mean the lives of GM were worth something instead of nothing. Brian Frisby is one of many I hold in this class of people with integrity.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 18, 2019 at 4:54 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> If it weren’t for the professionalism of state police
>> officer TARR, the efforts & intentions of the Prescott,
>> Arizona wildfire mafia to cover-up the accident
>> would have been much more successful than it was.
I agree.
According to the testimony of DPS Ranger Pilot Clifford Brunsting, he had offered to land and pick up Officer Tarr after he had confirmed the fatalities… but Tarr declined because he knew he had to stay that on the ground… in the midst of that horror… and tape-off / secure the site.
I can almost hear one ( or more ) of the 5 FFs who were there with him ( Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, Aaron Hulburd, Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ), when they saw him start stringing ‘tape… “What are you doing?”
…and Tarr simply replying… “My job”.
You want to know what I “Can almost hear?”
Cordes, Willis, et al saying: ” this country hasn’t burned in a long time. The fuel load is extremely high. We’ve known for a while that we were going to have to deal with a fire right here sooner or later. The best thing we can do is get an anchor on this thing, figure out where our control lines need to be, & burn it all. Then we won’t have to deal with a fire again here for a long time. We’ve been cross training and coordinating will the forestry folks for years just for this. Call all your friends this is gonna be big. Alright we’ve got some lines in & making progress on the ignitions in multiple divisions – working slick as a whistle. It’s mid-afternoon and the winds are in the perfect direction. Oh Shit, there’s a thunderstorm building! Now the winds are increasing & changing direction! What do we do now? When do we evacuate citizens? Do we need to pull our folks off the line? Man, our ignitions are burning like gangbusters! Damn! I think our fires coupled with the main fire is really going to get big. Think it’s going to get some structures. Everyone’s outta the way of this thing, right? RIGHT???? Damn. GMs caught in there. Thought they had time to get to the bomb proof safety zone at the ranch in order to regroup & help with these structures. Deployment??? Bullshit, they had plenty of time to get there!!! You can’t locate GM? I know where they are & where they were going. Should I say something? Think I’m gonna be sick…”
While we’re coming up ideas of what people on the fire were probably thinking, I figure I’d give it a shot too….
I do think you are correct in your estimation of that situation. When on the mountain at the time I told Joy that very thing–they are not really working to put this fire out–this is a controlled burn–now called a prescribed burn in the new fire-speak.
That was an area about Yarnell that needed a burn for one thing. When Joy and I talked to one Rancher that was a suspect on starting the Tenderfoot fire, he flat out stated that in times past the ranchers would burn out those manzanita overgrowths so that new forage could come in and cattle would be able to graze. Of course he had absolutely nothing to do with this modern fire–laws have changed and because Yarnell is established where residents and people are at risk, only a controlled prescribed burn should be administered by the elite fire fighting crews.
You would think with the millions spent working the Yarnell fire, someone in the State Department would spend the necessary millions to build a defensible boundary around the small town. A new fire is inevitable–especially since the huge amount of high grade fertilizer (retardant) that has been dumped around Yarnell, much right at peoples door steps.
When I saw the official document Joy pointed out that laid aside the very dense and dehydrated area next the Helms on June 16, 2013 it added to my thought that this might have been a welcomed situation–lightening strike and damn it let it bur Of course the State no longer needed that document hanging around since that very area burned. Who knows some wild land fire boss unrelated to the fire might interpret it as being done for reasons other than the extreme fire hazard thing–keep out situation. So it was deleted.
I got word that Helms cleaned their place up with a nice bomb proof defensible space at about the same time the restriction went out. My suspicious mind, because the Helms do about 10 million in government contracts in their Phoenix Mfg. Company, I did not take that as a coincidence. But there is no proof and again another coincidence.
Well they did nice things during the fire and allowed a watering station there. I do not know the timing exactly on that or if it is congruent with anything–you would think anyone would allow such a thing. But check with Joy on this–I think that guy that had a small lake on the west side of the Weavers did refuse to allow copters to fill bags on his lake. Side note: Lakes are small in New Mexico and Arizona–when I was a kid I used to ride a bike to Cienaga lake some 20 miles away so I could fish. It was 50 yards across and 75 yards long fed by a spring. I did fry and eat a few of those fish as small as they were. Nice big bull frogs and so even ate a few frog legs from there. So the NM lake was smaller than the one this man had.
So it was not really a question of whether it should have been burned out–that was a given considering the fire hazard and denseness of the manzanita.
I think the low level fire departments are pretty much kept in the dark –or if not–they did not want to preform. Yarnell had access to several thousands of dollars allotted so they could do this defensible space a year before hand. I would have to go to Joy for the details–but they failed to get the money–hell it is hot in Yarnell and cleaning around houses is really tough work–something akin to wild land fire fighters digging line–So as it was nothing happened. To the credit of Ben Palm–his crew were sent out to do clean up work and defensible space. I paid for mine at the cabin but likely he would have sent a crew there as well.
After the fire damn near did not need the defensible space but you really do since if you ;have an overgrown yard right up to your woodpile on ;your wooden porch then you ought to clean things out for 25 ft. or more. Too many homes that were left intact were still in that situation even after the fire.
I sense that we have an Ignacius de Loya in the running for the truth here. That is good since the Society of Jesus has 99% of the time been doing what is right. I pay my respects there since Father Burns was a member of that Society and one of my best friends in this life. I have a smile thinking of him and times we had ice cream together; He wound up in Minnesota last I heard and God took his soul–thanks Father Burns you looked better in civilian clothes than that grey monk suit but no matter you did my heart good.
But I certainly saw a lot of coincidences–and too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence. A cowboy tole me that and maybe he read that on the back of a bull durum sack.
Woodsman,
I too can almost hear this, especially with a host agency that wants to fight fire on the “cheap”. As I am sure you know the area was laced with two track roads, although laden with fuel still a potential place to drop back to and fire from with the proper resources. Two shot crews on site and a third in route (although never arrived) might suffice, so lets get started. GM go in toward the origin and anchor – yeah cool, then if my memory serves me correctly they started dragging fire, most likely down the two track. Hmm, might be the key part of the plan, until the seats put it out per the direction of air attack. Always important to communicate the plan to all resources, especially when air attack thinks they are calling the shots!
After walking that ground this is really the only tactic that makes sense to me -direct mid slope line mid afternoon in 100 degrees just wont work. Its just a matter of connecting the dots as far as the thought process for the firing operations. I really think the air drops on the GM firing operation changed the mind set, not really sure it would have made a difference in the big picture but…
Thanks, Norb.
I appreciate your perspective from your multiple visits to the site. Wish I was able to go as well but I chose the wrong line of work for jet-setting around…or driving as I don’t own a nice enough vehicle to have coincidence in getting there without breaking down! I should have been a radiology tech or something. But there is the small detail of being a woods dwelling, one step from a caged animal type, so I guess a real job wouldn’t have worked out anyway.
I want you to know that if I was capable of giving anyone a pass for being a California hybrid, I’d give it to you. Hey, at least you’re from the north. If you were So cal, then I definitely couldn’t even if I wanted to. I mean that.
Woodsman,
Thanks for the pass! Just for clarification, the last 34 years of my 38 years as a hybrid were spent working in Nevada. Of course being so close to California I spent a lot of fire time there over the years, but my Department was based in Nevada. I just live in California ( barely).
I will be at the site again this March, come on out – it would be great to meet and share information and experiences.
Funny how people read what they want to read. I insulted you and complemented you at the same time, you crazy old dog. Haha! Thank youyou for the invite but what’s rattling around in the old piggy bank is spoken for. I shoulda gone the hybrid route but I’m too stupid. Guess I didn’t want the deelux pension package…
I thought Norb is on the Nevada side?
Which might be like trying to decide which state has the worse winter…North Dakota or Minnesota?
Whoops…Norns response just showed up on my screen.
Make that…NORB’S response.
Norbert,
Yes! Air attack was completely out of bounds on their self proclaimed authority that day. What The F???
Reply to Woodsman post on January 18, 2019 at 4:22 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> They were planning on removing the bodies from the hill asap.
Yes, they were. No doubt.
Like it was “nobody’s business but ours”..
In both her BOOK and in her recent PUBLIC address… DJ Helm confirms both of the following…
1. Despite all the attempts by Mke Dudley, Jim Karels, and the rest of the SAI team to ‘hide’ the fact that Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were even THERE in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… DJ Helm comes right out and NAMES ‘Jason Clawson’ as the firefighter who first walked onto her property from the direction of the deployment site and told her of the GM deaths. Clawson told her he thought they were going to need to ‘get them out’ right away with helicopters ( with not even any thought of there needing to be an investigation first ). DJ Helm gave persmission for that… but that plan then changed to pushing in the dozer road instead because it finally dawned on the fire fighters that those bodies weren’t going anywhere until the YCSO Police did an official investigation of the death site.
2. After the fatalities… one of the ‘officials’ who came out to the BSR ( Incident within an Incident commander Todd Abel? ) came right up to them and said… (quote) “This is a big deal… and we don’t want ANYONE TO KNOW ABOUT IT”. (unquote). Even by that time, however, the news was already spreading everywhere. Jason Clawson himself had already reported the deaths over non-private radio frequencies which were being monitored by the public and the media.
That being said… I suppose it could be argued that Roy Hall still thought ‘recovery’ meant there might be survivors… since he interview statement times indicated his thinking even BEFORE he was told they were all dead…
But as for GM ‘Incident within an Incident’ commander Todd Abel requesting a ‘Type 2’ team to ‘assist with recovery’… you don’t send a bunch of ground-pounders in to a site that has casualties that need medical attention. You send in ground-pounders to just carry bodies out, ASAP.
You didn’t understand what I said or you don’t believe me: “recovery” = retrieve dead bodies. No one “recovers” survivors.
I did understand what you were saying.
I guess you didn’t read the last paragraph above.
Nobody orders up a ‘Type 2’ team of ground-pounders to go in and treat wounded people. You call them up to haul out bodies.
Some people understood they were all dead, and that there was no one else to ‘look for’.
Some did not. It took a little while longer for EVERYONE ( Air Attack included ) to realize there was NO ONE left to look for, and no one coming out alive.
Until they figured out that John Percin Jr. was so new to the crew ( Yarnell was only the second fire he’d ever been out on… with his FIRST fire being only the day before… in Skull Valley ) that his NAME wasn’t even on the GM manifest… there was general confusion about whether ALL the GM Hotshots who had showed up that morning were now ALL lying dead in the box canyon ( except for Donut ).
There was a LOT of confusion that afternoon / evening.
This is the quote in your post I was responding to:
“That being said… I suppose it could be argued that Roy Hall still thought ‘recovery’ meant there might be survivors… ”
I’m just saying he absolutely did not think that with that specific word choice. And this very strong opinion I have on that means they were circling the wagons straight out of the gate…which includes the IC that took over that day.
And I just reread your last paragraph again on your recommendation. Yes, I agree fully with that.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 18, 2019 at 5:32 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> This is the quote in your post I was
>> responding to:
>>
>> “That being said… I suppose it could be
>> argued that Roy Hall still thought ‘recovery’
>> meant there might be survivors… ”
>>
>> I’m just saying he absolutely did not think
>> that with that specific word choice.
It pays to read to the ENDS of sentences.
Context is everything.
The ACTUAL ( full ) sentence was…
“That being said… I suppose it could be argued that Roy Hall still thought ‘recovery’ meant there might be survivors… since his interview statement TIMES indicated his thinking even BEFORE he was told they were all dead…”
By only focusing on the FIRST half of the sentence… you missed the point I was making about the TIMING in his log entries…. and his ( confusing? ) ‘word choice’…
Once more for good measure…
From Type 2 IC Roy Hall’s SAIT Interview notes…
—————————————————–
17:39 ( 5:39 PM )
LOFR Dana Schimdt working with Yavapai County Sherriff Office. Working with Scott Masher, 6 lifeline helos ordered to assist with recovery.
18:29 ( 6:29 PM )
Musser called. 19 confirmed no medevac necessary.
Scene secured.
————————R