Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII and Chapter XXIV.
© Copyright 2017 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
The “bait-and-switch”
from the surprisingly
frank Burn-Baby-Burn
“reincarnated”
Woodsman of Olde
into the “far safer and more politically correct”
Critic of Managerial Oversight Responsibility
(equally valid, tho’ it may be)
would seem to best be described, thusly…
“What are we
DOING
or
NOT DOING
to make BURN-BABY-BURN
more likely to be accident free
while providing an efficient service to THOSE taxpayers NOT
living in the Wildland-Urban-Interface, when it comes to wildfires in the US?”
** NEW CHAPTER XXVI ( 26 )
New Chapter XXVI ( 26 ) has been started.
As always… many thanks to John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA for the
continuing patience and support for this ongoing discussion.
Direct jumplink to the new chapter…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/
On March 29, 2018 at 10:19 pm, Robert the Second (RTS) said…
>> Good stuff Gary,
>>
>> Here is a link for Leadership and Biographical information on Dr. Putnam.
>>
>> https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/leaders_meet/interviews/leaders_TedPutnam.html
>>
>> I will follow up at another time with his article titled:
>> “Accidents, accident guides, stories and the truth.”
>>
>> This amazing paper is published in the Proceedings of 11th International
>> Wildland Fire Safety Summit, April 4-8, 2011, Missoula, Montana, USA;
>> Published by the International Association of Wildland Fire,
>> Missoula, Montana, USA
Here is a link to where that ( full ) paper by Dr. Ted Putnam can be downloaded…
Eleventh International Wildland Fire Safety Summit
April 4-8, 2011 Hilton Garden Inn Missoula, MT
Promoting the Story of Wildland Fire Safety.
Presentation Title: Accidents, Accident Guides, Stories and the Truth
Presented By: Dr. Ted Putnam, Mindful Solutions
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=05262454341263280395
WTKTT,
Thank you for once again using your sleuth skills to locate Dr. Putnam’s paper and post a very unique link for it.
PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ DR. PUTNAM’S PAPER AND WHAT HE HAS TO SAY ABOUT ACCIDENT AND FATALITY INVESTIGATIONS AND THE COVER-UPS THAT ARE A MAINSTAY OF THE OSTENSIBLE “FACTUAL” INVESTIGATIONS AND SAIRs!
“Accident Investigation Concerns
Although it seems obvious that accident investigations should strive to uncover the actual causes and conditions that led to the accident, this is seldom attempted let alone advocated in the relevant agency investigation guides used by wildland fire and other organizational (Airlines, NASA, Military, etc.) accident investigators. Failure to look for all discoverable causes and conditions leads to accident reports that are superficial in understanding or missing vital information on what really occurred as well as why it occurred. It is relevant for individuals and organizations to look at what accident guides investigations are focusing on compared to what
they could and ought to be focusing on. Specifically, we ignore the impact of the individual’s cognitive processing on accident causation.”
“Historically wildland fire entrapment investigations have operated with strong biases and typically left out entire quadrants of analysis, i.e. the cultural and intentional quadrants. Often these actions involve deceptive accounts but sometimes they involve misleading accounts. Why do people and agencies do this?”
“From accounts of [1949] Mann Gulch the only person known to be at the bottom of Mann Gulch, about the time the “spot fire” ignited, was the district ranger as he himself testified. What is noteworthy is that only the district ranger was allowed to talk about the spot fires in the bottom of Mann Gulch. At the Board of Review hearing NO ONE WAS ALLOWED TO CONTRADICT OR QUESTION THE RANGER’S STORY.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Unbelievable! THIS is the investigation where the “FIRST ESTABLISH A CONCLUSION, THEN FIND THE “FACTS” TO FIT IT” means of hiding the truth began resulting in a FULL cover=up.
“A Fire Expert who wanted to observe the spot-fires’ origins was FORBIDDEN TO DO SO BY THE TEAM LEADER, since it was not in the scope of the investigation. In the case of the Board of Review it is what they ignore and don’t talk about that screams of a cover-up.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
“My summary points are that MANN GULCH WAS AN ELABORATE COVER-UP FROM THE START, did little to help future firefighters and mostly protected upper level managers and the Agency’s images. I invite readers to go back and take a more thorough look at the available evidence and to realize, like I have, that the Mann Gulch investigation set the pattern for later fatality investigations, namely that it is ok to cover-up the truth and blame firefighters and fire behavior than mental errors, cultures, managers or organizations. If our accident investigations don’t promote finding and telling the Truth then Lessons Learned, firefighter safety and High
Reliability Organizations are just convenient buzz words; lullabies numbing us out rather than keeping us awake to underlying conditions and causal elements which best account for our collective firefighter realities.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Dr. Putnam then goes on to discuss the partial cover-ups and whitewash of the 1994 South Canyon Fire and why he refused to sign the report.
“Thus the South Canyon report has elements of deliberate cover-ups like Mann Gulch and elements of partial cover-ups, with the promise that another report is coming and “trust us to fix the problems later.” No later team report was written.”
Dr. Putnam also reveals untold truths about the Alabaugh Canyon Fire (2007) in South Dakota that resulted in a fire shelter deployment and burns to two WFs and the Crandall Ranger Station tree felling accident in 2010.
Dr. Putnam and I disagree on the value of the tried-and-true WF Rules, especially the “10 and 18.” I hold that they work every time you utilize the Ten Standard Orders and observe, recognize, and mitigate the 18 Watch Outs. Tens of thousands of WF and Supervisors successfully utilize the 10 and 18 every single fire season.
After all, the fire signals to you what it is going to do — every time.
Yes, thank you WTKTT.
And I never stated this specifically in my meandering diatribe down below, but the reason, and the only reason, the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride Developement Committee was nasty to me while Shawna was so sweet to me, because she is such a smooth operator, is because I started insisting they were on the wrong track with the lessons that should have been learned from the Battlement Crrpreek Fire and they were in the early stages of designing a Staff Ride based on factually incorrect information.
Shawna wasn’t the only whore (non gender specific) on that committee, every one of them were agency and system whores (non gender specific), Shawna was just the Whore-In-Charge (WIC), which was of course is non gender specific. The non gender specific whores were her henchmen who did her dirty work while she treated me with kindness and respect as she humored me right up to the point of telling the truth about the Battlement Creek Fire.
And what is really, really, neat…is the fact I re-read my “Smoking Gun” document the other day that proves the Battlement Creek Fire Investigative Report was a cover up, and it also proves I came right out of the starting gate advocating to have the true story told during the Staff Ride.
And when you read the Smoking Gun document, please keep in mind that although it is specifically is about the Battlement Creek Fire, it is an proof and therefore an indictment of how corrupt the entire system is because it is run by fire gods who are WIC’s who have corrupt hearts and intent.
Not corrupt intent in the sense they are directly receiving things of value for their systemic corruption and gross mismanagement from outside sources, their unethical pay offs come in the form of promotions and other related benefits that even their retirement in based on, so they are whores until death.
I need to go back through my records and find their names and post them here on this thread as part of the historical record of the people who have blood on their hands from the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Speaking of having bloody hands, I can’t help but wonder if I have blood on my hands as well? Could I have done more to force them to tell the truth, should I have done that instead of resigning from that committee? Am I complicit in the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots? Of course I am…not only did I resign from that corrupt committee rather than stay and fight, I helped build that entire corrupt system, I was on of those who were “in” as the Woodsman wrote.
Oh…and one more thing. The last meeting I had with BLM State Director, (who is the equivelant of a Regional Forester in the USFS) was regarding how to handle a felony investigation of a mining company operating on your Public Lands that I had been supervising.
So…what did I do after the meeting instead of calling “60 Minutes?” I went out with the Case Agent who was assigned to conduct the investigation and I instructed him to dig a hole. And then together and under my direction, we buried one more body for the BLM.
When I went to work for the BLM, we agreed on what I was, the only thing left for us to negotiate was which specific acts was willing to perform and for how much money.
#Complicit
Except I wasn’t in the situation poor FBI Special Agent Andy McCabe was in and 24 hours from retirement when they got him, I had a,ready reached full retirement age several years earlier, my finish line was artificially imposed by me.
But…when the BLM tried to find mental health professionals to find me unfit for duty, I was several years short of making it to my minimum retirement age and if they would have been successful, I would have been fired because my guns, credentials and Top Secret Security Clearance all would have been permanently taken away from me instead of just during my testing period.
I’m telling you straight up…the BLM has mostly .world class motherfuckers running that sorry agency because like I said, they are political appointees. Although some USFS managers can come close, even though they are career professionals who came up through the ranks. At some point, everyone who goes any higher has to be willing to at least compromise their integrity at least som of the time…am I right Mr. Mike Dudley?
Yes, Gary, you’re complicit. That’s the bad news. The good news is you are MORE than making up for it by having the brass ones to tell the truth. Hell, I don’t think you even knew the truth until much later when you had the time to really take it all in. If it makes you feel better I wasn’t able to see the truth until recently myself. We get caught up in the system until one day we say to ourselves, ” hey! Wait just a fucking minute! DO WHAT??” I’m as guilty as you are, friend. We are awake now. That’s one of the primary reasons why I’m so pissed off. We’ve been had.
RTS is guilty too. We are responsible. BUT, it’s never too late to make a change. We got this….together. Technology has increased our odds for success.
Now back to my anger management therapy.
THE Woodsman
No…when I started this “journey” more than five years ago, I primarily blamed Darrell Willis and the Prescott Fire Department. Now I understand they are just symptons of the disease, not the disease themselves.
And to quote the comic strip Pogo, “We have met the enemy and he is us.”
I honestly and truly believe that if we can finally admit what was really primarily responsible for the hotshots deaths on the Loop, Battlement Creek and Yarnell Hill Fires, it really will make a huge difference in whether the fourth hotshot disaster ever occurs.
Hotshots will still be killed and seriously hurt on fires due to inherently dangerous circumstances like occurred on the South Canyon Fires and the tragic tree strikes, which sounds like they were certainly preventable deaths.
On a side note, most hotshot sawyers aren’t really professional fallers, especially when falling really big trees under complex conditions. The men who are really trained and experienced to do that highly technical work come as contractors from the logging industry who have thousands of hours of experience and on the job training in falling. Hotshots sawyers get a lot of saw time, but most of isnt actually dropping trees, especially the really big ones.
But like so many other things on this thread, those are side issues. They are very important issues, like “How Big Is Big Enough”, but they aren’t the primary issues here.
Admitting you have a problem…we all know is the first step in correcting that problem. We have a problem….let’s take steps to correct it!
To expand on my statement, it’s not a simple process of placing each other in the appropriate “box” labeled COMPLICIT or NON-COMPLICIT as my words may be interpreted. We are all located somewhere on the spectrum of complicity, from very little to “all in.” It can be logically argued that even ‘civilians’ share complicity in fireline fatalities. When you examine people’s expectations of firefighters in protection of the forest resource and minimizing the impacts to private property, it simply must be considered by any rational human.
Using myself as an example, on July 28, 2002 I was on a crew as a basic firefighter near Happy Camp, CA engaged in the Stanza fire. 3 USFS engine crew members lost their lives when their engine lost traction at the edge of the road and rolled down the mountain. There were many causal factors to this accident. Has it bothered me since that night? You DAMN STRAIGHT it has! Even as an FFT2 (basic) I knew at the time of the hazard of that section of road due to the width, surface, and trouble with traffic on it. Adding smoke and darkness, it’s identified hazards killed three good people because management wasn’t sharp enough to change the way firefighters were using that section of road. BUT, I was a brand new guy, what the heck do I know? Double-BUT, I didn’t speak up other than to my crew boss. I certainly didn’t do everything in my power to stop it and it 100% could have and should have been stopped.
It takes time and experience for firefighters to build the toolbox that allows them to SEE…not merely observe but SEE! Until most gain this, through time spent on the line, we MUST rely on leadership to SEE FOR US and not merely OBSERVE!!!! Not only that, they must speak up about it and change how we are operating in the fire environment in response to the visual factors identified in the changing nature of wildfires.
Too many put their own self interests first as considerations for money, advancement, and to GO ALONG TO GET ALONG. The non-boat rockers possess something or things that are apparently more important than doing the right thing even though it may mean negative consequences personally. I’ve believed for a tragically long period of time that, as a wildfifre community, when it comes to safety: WE TALK THE TALK BUT WE DON’T WALK THE WALK!!! This must change or more will die in the future in similar incidents due to the human factors of sub-standard decision-making under stress.
So what does it take to effect real change in the business of wildland firefighting in the US? Courage and SELFLESSNESS!!! It takes people with their head on straight who have the intestinal fortitude to be able to tell management to shove it, “the people I’m responsible for ARE NOT going to do that!” In other words it takes the individual to first change themselves and others will follow. (thank you Mr. P)
In summary, the claim I made that you, me, RTS, and nearly everyone in this business is complicit in covering up after accidents is a very complicated matter. We should ask each other: “What are we DOING or NOT DOING to make wildland firefighting more likely to be accident free while providing an efficient service to the taxpayers when it comes to wildfires in the US?”
What are you doing to prevent injury/deaths on the fireline? What have you NOT done about it? Why? Give yourself an honest self-assessment. We have become specialists at lying to ourselves! We’ve got that down pat!
If you are responsible for others as a fireline leader, and you have concrete evidence of serial cover-ups by management in nearly every single major fireline accident investigation (and if you don’t by now, you must be brain dead or blinded by indoctrination into the system), what are you going to do about it? How will you go about making sure the people you are responsible for are safe on and off the line?
One more thing: the word “SAFE.” Maybe it has become over-utilized and by default a cliche’. “Let’s be safe out there!” ” Safety first every fire every time!” I propose we change it to PROTECTION of our people. My last sentence above should read:
How will you go about making sure the people you are responsible for are PROTECTED from harm on and off the line?
Woodsman
…And it is a monumental barrier to learning when “management” doesn’t allow firefighters to actually learn from fatality investigations due to the rampant conspiracy to commit fraud by explicit burial of the real causes of fireline deaths by the investigation teams. Incidentally, these investigation teams are always packed full of the types of personnel Gary refers to as fire god or those on the fast-track to fire god status…those who would sell their own grandmother in order to preserve their paycheck, status and retirement funds for the future. Selfish and sick bastards… every last one of them!
Reply to Woodsman post
on April 3, 2018 at 9:07 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> It is a monumental barrier to learning when
>> “management” doesn’t allow firefighters to
>> actually learn from fatality investigations
>> due to the rampant conspiracy to commit
>> fraud by explicit burial of the real causes
>> of fireline deaths
Monumental is right.
It’s as if the Airline Pilots Association is the only agency allowed to “investigate” airplane crashes.
As Gary has already pointed out… if that were the case then planes would be falling out of the sky and the only ‘explanation’ the grieving family members would be getting is “Flying is inherently dangerous. Get over it.”
At some point the responsibility for investigating Wildland fireline deaths has to be taken AWAY from the U.S. and State level Forestry agencies.
The argument that “We’re the only ones who understand what we do so we are the only ones qualified to investigate” is, and always has been, total bullshit.
The investigations must be TRULY ‘independent’.
As you and Gary have now both said…
Not just to LOOK… but to truly SEE.
Hallelujah brother! Can I get an amen? AMEN!
Reply to Woodsman post on April 3, 2018 at 8:57 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> To expand on my statement… ( snip )
Incredibly well said.
Thank you.
Your welcome. We have become experts at facade construction & replaced potential progress with extreme energy spent in the program of “covering the bases.” That’s why we have a Lessons Learned Center where the real lessons are not shared at all. It’s a sham.
‘Facade’. Good word.
Describes the situation perfectly.
——————————————————–
fa·cade
fəˈsäd/
noun
noun: facade; plural noun: facades; noun: façade; plural noun: façades
An outward appearance that is maintained to conceal a less pleasant or creditable reality.
——————————————————-
Woodsman,
I appreciate your ideas and words. They ring true!!
There is some confusion as to what I think of Eric Marsh. So…just to be clear, I don’t believe Mr. Marsh was a murderer. I do however, firmly believe Mr. Marsh was clearly guilty of 17 counts of manslaughter according to Arizona State law.
I believe that because I can read and comprehend the English language at a competent level. If you can do the same, then either you will agree with me, or you are a person who lives in denial and wants the world to be as you want it to be, rather than how it really is.
Now…both the police and prosecutors have enormous duscreation, we can even say they have complete discretion, as to whether to investigate and subsequently charge a person with any crime or not. But just because a person is never charged with a crime, certainly does not mean they are not guilty of that crime, it just means they are lucky or beyond the reach of the law…like being dead.
I am also a reasonable person, so if anyone can read the following law and explain why Mr. Marsh is not guilty of 17 counts of manslaughter, I would certainly like to read it. Othwise, there is no doubt in my mind, nor should there be any doubt in yours, that the acts of both Mr. Marsh and Jesse Steed leading up to the deaths of their crew clearly and squarely meet the very definition of, “Recklessly causing the death of another person.”
If knowingly and deliberately violating almost all of the rules and guidelines of wildland firefighting safety at the same against repeated warnings isn’t reckless, then I don’t know what reckless is? I didn’t write the law, shooting the messenger won’t change the facts…or the law.
https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/01103.htm
13-1103. Manslaughter; classification
A. A person commits manslaughter
1. Recklessly causing the death of another person; or
2. Committing second degree murder as prescribed in section 13-1104, subsection A upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion resulting from adequate provocation by the victim; or
3. Intentionally providing the physical means that another person uses to commit suicide, with the knowledge that the person intends to commit suicide; or
4. Committing second degree murder as prescribed in section 13-1104, subsection A, paragraph 3, while being coerced to do so by the use or threatened immediate use of unlawful deadly physical force upon such person or a third person which a reasonable person in his situation would have been unable to resist; or
5. Knowingly or recklessly causing the death of an unborn child by any physical injury to the mother.
B. An offense under subsection A, paragraph 5 of this section applies to an unborn child in the womb at any stage of its development. A person shall not be prosecuted under subsection A, paragraph 5 of this section if any of the following applies:
1. The person was performing an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on the pregnant woman’s behalf, has been obtained or for which the consent was implied or authorized by law.
2. The person was performing medical treatment on the pregnant woman or the pregnant woman’s unborn child.
3. The person was the unborn child’s mother.
C. Manslaughter is a class 2 felony.
Oh…and one more thing. The confusion regarding what I think of Eric Marsh is coming straight from Amanda, so I would like to take this opportunity to repeat other things I have also written in the past.
1. If I were with Eric now, I would hug him and we would cry together, but only after I had slapped the bitch (non gender specific) out of him. I have also written that I identify with Eric because I was a deeply flawed hotshot crew boss as well and fought my own demons…just like he did.
2. The data points I can see now and the threads that run between all three hotshot disaster fires, the Loop, the Battlement Creek and the Yarnell Hill Fire clearly reveal to me that Eric was also a victim and hero of that cursed fire, even though he was a deeply flawed hero of a corrupt and grossly mismanaged system.
Although the “Smoking Gun” I am in possession of, is directly related to the Battlement Creek Fire, it is evidence against and an indictment of the entire system led by people like Mike Dudley and Shawna Legarza who have sold their souls for professional advancement at the cost of hotshot lives in the past, as well as those in the future.
I know this because as I have written many times, once is an anomonly (the Loop Fire Of 1966), twice is a coincidence (the Battlement Creek Fire Of 1976) but three times (the Yarnell Hill Fire Of 2013) is a pattern, so it will happen again. It’s only a matter of when…not if.
And if management would have done the right thing after the Loop and Battlement Creek Fires, would the Yarnell Hill Fire have been avoided? I don’t know for sure, but one thing I do know, is that Darrell Willis told me that he was a student of the Battlement Creek Fire and I know Eric and his crew studied past disaster fires that certainly included both the Loop and Battlement Creek Fires.
The only problem with that, is that Darrell and Eric were studying the fake lessons and lies from the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride because after I told Shawna the truth and what needed to be studied, she thanked me for my interest, but informed she would be following the official accident report anyway. This, even though the two former hotshots, who were also Subject Matter Experts (SME) who had also been on the Battlement Creek Fire with me, told her the very same things I did at the same time.
This was in addition to Dr. Ted Putnam, who was not only an SME on the same staff ride because he had been a sector boss on the Battlement Creek Fire, he had been part of the Battlement Creek Fire Serious Accident Investigation Team (although it went by a different name) and he knew the report had been a cover up full of lies and he told Shawn’s Legarza the very same things we did, but she ignored him as well.
Like I said, I don’t know how much of a difference it would have made if the true lessons from the Battlement Creek Fire would have been learned, but if those lessons had been studied together with the true lessons that could have been learned from the Loop Fire instead of their lies…maybe the Yarnell Hill Fire would just be one more successfully fought and forgotten wildfire? Whatever those odds would have been…I would have gratefully taken them, wouldn’t you have done the same?
So…I’m sorry Amanda, but this isn’t about the dead hotshots of the past, it’s about the living Hotshots of the future. If you want to help, please let me know and we can work together to save the lives of all of the wildland firefighters of today and tomorrow, not just our beloved hotshots.
I can write a novel reply Gary yet all I am going to state to the world is when you ask for foias or public records…YOU FOLKS who contacted these entities tied to a govt email or cell (TEXTS) thinking it was private (THINK AGAIN-) may you been an investigator or a grieving loved one or whomever you are—- thank you because your personal or govt cell that called or texted these folks showed me who is who in this and I can confirm Gary if you gained such data boy you would have a field day on that- RTS too and as well a few others…Sad screwy world we live in when this site is labelled as the lead component for their current problems when there is no other area where you can freely share. Sad huh. I mean you can freely share at the local bars…I am sorry Rocksteady and Diane are not able to post…
CALLING JOHN DOUGHERTY…new chapter please! We know you visited recently John—
http://www.investigativemedia.com/trumps-former-attorney-john-dowd-petitioned-clinton-to-pardon-former-arizona-governor/
Everyone should be able to post. I don’t think it is the size of the chapter, I think it is the anti spam thing a ma jig, you just need to be patient, save your work and then hit he back arrow, and then the forward arrow, once or twice, back and forth, you might even have to close all of the way out and log in again, but if your work is saved, it doesn’t matter, it just takes some time. It is a pain in the ass, but hey…we get to post here and share our thoughts with the world! So…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/#comment-470716
Happy Anniversary Diane Lomas
Have you learned much else in the past year except maybe the site can make one a little stir crazy at times…
Gary, the Heckler & Koch 27 is not a battle rifle and does not have the punch or the distance. It just takes the place of the M-249 but it is lighter. Basically a heavy barreled M-4 with a piston driven bolt.
I would marry my Grendel if it was allowed…6.5 Grendel would still be alot better than 5.56
the .300 blackout is useless after 300 yard Gary- it drops like a rock
Gary said God Bless America and Our Troops! Somebodies children are dying and suffering life long injuries, including PTSD for the rest of us.
THAT ALSO CAN BE STATED FOR THE FIRE INDUSTRY NOT JUST THE TROOPS GARY
Gary, we were right to be there at Vietnam but the Generals should of fought the war not the politicians—oh and again much like the fire industry…war then would of been over in 2 years…
this is a broken promise me being here but I am not talking fire data and the end of that talk did not go to a healing as I had wished for so I am here but not for fire stuff just the love of educating on guns since Gary is well rounded in his view I like to always put a twist on it but not late at night; at dinner time (wink) (NUMBA 10 please),
I love talking guns and politics and numismatics.
Yes…but in Arizona you couldn’t marry your Grendel unless it is a male Grendel.
And I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on our particular choice of firearms, but I do respect your opinion, especially since you are…you know…a chick. :). But I am going to have to take a hard look at the .300 Blackout ballistics. I will admit…I didn’t do that.
Actually, I misstated what I said about Vietnam. I am sure we didn’t belong there, but I think I did (paraphrased from “Full Metal Jacket”).
I am pretty good at compartmentaling things and I can put the morality of that war and many of our other wars of choice in one box and the courage and valor of those who fought them in another box.
That is one way I survived working for the federal govt. for 30 years in the jobs I had, I could compartmentalized “things.” These shitbags like Mike Dudley have to be pretty good at it to or they couldn’t look at themselves in the mirror.
The Vets taught me how to do that in the aftermath of the Battlement Creek Fire. We didn’t miss a beat and joked about WF who got burned over as being “ Crispy Critters”; which was another Vietnam term I think.
They didn’t need to take us out of rotation for the rest of the entire fuckin’ season. It cost us a lot of lost fire money and we weren’t living in that barracks and showering in a communal shower because we liked each other. Wildland firefighting is first and foremost about making extra money, overtime, hazard pay, double time on holidays in addition to nighttime and Sunday differential, etc. no tree huggers need apply. The only good tree is on the back of a logging truck and sometimes you have to burn down the forest in order to save it.
Joy,
I have been thinking about it and I don’t think I have to check the ballistics on the .300 Blackout because I don’t think it matters if it drops like a rock at 300 yards, we are talking about a battle rifle…not a sniper rifle. And I think in both LE and with the military, those are considered to be effective out to only about 100 yards. I guess after that, you could use Kentucky windage?
As far as the HK 27, it’s advantage is that it is built around a completely different operating system and keeping the M4 and it’s ariations clean enough to operate without jamming has been an issue from day one in Vietnam.
Not for LE and most sport shooters because I think it takes thousands of rounds to start causing problems and I think they see something like one malfunction every 600 or 700 rounds and LE just doesn’t shoot them that much, I guess the military does?
In any case, the HK 27 eliminates the entire issue, as do the Sig Sauer assault rifles with the new and improved operating systems, so I want one (HK 27) and in a .556 because like I said before, a heavier bullet is academic to me because our culture is built around the cheaper NATO round.
And you know when the Zombie Apocalypse comes and we have to raid the National Guard Armories in order to survive, we are going to want to be able to shoot NATO rounds, so…
Hey Joy,
What do you think of the HK MP5? I hated it because it definitely wasn’t a battle rifle, so I switched to an HK 53.
But even though we have MP 5’s in this realistic training video, we also have some bitchin’ Hueys with some great sound effects from those big beautiful and magnificent machines, but it also comes with a really bitchin’ sound track personally selected by me. Enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56Zs9BKHpP8
Hey Gary- when I was younger I knew HOW MANY RBIs and TDs completed and I even tried to keep up with all the guys who counted all the tail fins and the hood ornaments back to the 40’s…but who’s dating me that far back…the bottom line “who gives a shit”…I know nowadays not many do…back to joining your boat you sailed on…have a good night. I know mine won’t be so swell yet it is the right thing to do…so if there is any of you out there debating if you should just keep the YHF data details to yourself please remember sharing is the right thing to do…what I am about to share to someone tonight will shift my life forever but it’s the right thing to do…so yeah Gary sorry but not a solid phase in my life to be cutting it up with you. I am in prayer mode. God Bless-
It’s okay, I already know what you think of a gun that can’t drop a man like a rock at 300 yards and beyond, it ain’t worth having. And I agree with you, So…
What do I think
of the 1960s technology- MP5?!?!
It was good for swat teams and anti terrorism units but was never designed to be a battle rifle.
I’m glad you switched to the short barrel 5.56…less over penetration…with the right ammo
Great video sir
I like the old army helicopters…the hueys…
I still enjoy the ride it like you stole it one…or take the wheel one….
you know for us folks who others claim as “crazy” or “not right”…in all reality there has to be something said because we are at least raw and pure and say it as we see it may it not always be the proper way to express…yet what is the proper ways nowadays…I know Gary you are thinking hmmm… “AI”…aka WTKTT ;)…he is all proper…so proper one has to think if we are on the set of the Wizard of Oz…who stands behind that curtain, eh?
I just spent a good hour earlier being very pure on a topic I thought was going to lead to a shift yet I walk away scratching my head…like a chimpanzee Gary. I think I even scratched under my arm pit. I do not want to keep this up- trying to do no more late night pop-ons but wanted to thumbs up the aerial shot videos—wonder what Rocksteady thought of it…He had to love it…
Wow…you really do know guns and stuff about them!
Particularly, when statistics are involved right Gary—the determination of what constitutes a credible fact (and what does not) can contain elements of personal subjectivity. Isn’t it our mission to minimize subjective information and to provide highly factual content or is that just wtktt’s area. Therefore- I just got notified you were writing my name on IM so I ended up over here but I was not even reading here lately…been training…I recently Gary attended ARIZONA WILDFIRE ACADEMY and I am now a long term student of fire—what’s your views on that…(do not answer rocksteady…or you Norb…or you RTS…) I just wonder what Gary thinks because the last I knew you called me what on my 40 day fast and I am still here…I lost more weight this week then I did on the 40 day fast being treated for strep A with antibiotics even though it came back zero and I did come back + with tonsillitis and pharyngitis- ugh so on their dang meds…
leave you with some trivia:
“American Sniper” Chris Kyle’s longest confirmed kill, at 1.2 miles, was made using this rifle?
SINCE IT IS SO LATE I WILL GIVE YOU
A B C D CHOICES -OK….
a. Mk-12 5.56mm
b. .338-caliber Lapua
c. .50-caliber Accuracy International AS50
d. L42A1 Enfield 7.62mm
if you guessed “B”…then try this one on for size….Tommy Gun”, the M1 Thompson shoots what bullet?
.45 acp
AK-47 shoots what bullet?
Actually when the AK-47 was being tested in the mid 1940s the bullet shells were so top secret that after firing they were collected and reloaded or destroyed.
where were you Gary when you “first saw” your first desert eagle and could a .44 mag be chambered in one?
I was in Chandler Arizona when one of the Phoenix Suns Player was taking me to my doctor appt then we chilled by pool side and as I went up their spiral stairs where all the awards laid and the pool table was on 2nd level he showed me his collection and I thought “hell no” I’m not gonna touch another man’s weapon I hardly know…right
Man, thank God I did not…tell you why in person…but I did like seeing that toilet spray water up at his place…that was another first to my life…I learned what a bidet was that day…
Life is surely funny
Happy Easter World
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Ftomfernandez28.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F12%2Fscreen-shot-2013-12-23-at-6-13-01-pm.png&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Ftomfernandez28.com%2F2013%2F12%2F24%2Fdear-god-where-did-we-go-wrong%2F&docid=qVHduOV5xPBUYM&tbnid=CLt_qoFnrnZZAM%3A&vet=12ahUKEwjet_WdypjaAhUJ2GMKHWiMA6E4ZBAzKB0wHXoECAAQHg..i&w=2014&h=988&bih=760&biw=1536&q=god%20created%20man%20sam%20colt%20made%20them%20equal&ved=2ahUKEwjet_WdypjaAhUJ2GMKHWiMA6E4ZBAzKB0wHXoECAAQHg&iact=mrc&uact=8
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fimage.spreadshirtmedia.com%2Fimage-server%2Fv1%2Fmp%2Fcompositions%2FP1012440574T812A231MPC1020611413PA1663PT17X19Y34D1008449835S59%2Fviews%2F1%2Cwidth%3D1200%2Cheight%3D630%2CappearanceId%3D231%2CbackgroundColor%3DE8E8E8%2Cversion%3D1515071979%2Fgod-made-man-samuel-colt-made-em-equal-men-s-premium-t-shirt.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.spreadshirt.com%2Fgod%2Bmade%2Bman%2Bsamuel%2Bcolt%2Bmade%2Bem%2Bequal-A105671288&docid=keIwt2AXapOq0M&tbnid=sMoE2xPnOmycmM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwiM34OyypjaAhVI2GMKHX0DDYMQMwhnKDUwNQ..i&w=1200&h=630&bih=760&biw=1536&q=god%20created%20man%20sam%20colt%20made%20them%20equal%20sam%20colt&ved=0ahUKEwiM34OyypjaAhVI2GMKHX0DDYMQMwhnKDUwNQ&iact=mrc&uact=8
SNAP
Happy April Fool’s Day too
Okay…okay…okay, Joy, you know more about guns and calibers, ballistics and gun trivia than anyone I have ever known and wayyyy more than me. And that bothers me…just a little bit. Say…when is the last time you had a psychological examination and passed it?
I had two of them in the late 90’s because there were some managers in the BLM who questioned my psychological fitness for duty. But I aced both of them and then I was the only person I knew that had not one…but two certifications I was mentally squared away and I think I was wayyyy more sane than most of the BLM Ring Masters who ran that fuckin’ CIRCUS!
And even though I am working on my MOAP that will show just how bad USFS managers were, even FIRE managers, (I mean…how do you think I came up with the title for my book anyway? I didn’t pull, “Betrayed By Our Fire God’s” out of thin air) all of them were bush league compared to the Major League players who ran the BLM.
And if you want to know why (of course you do) all, or almost all the top managers in the USFS are career employees, all, or almost all top managers in the BLM are political appointees and most of them come straight from the industries they are supposed to be regulating while they give away the candy store…your candy store.
And that included both Republican and Democratic administrations although the Republican ones were wayyyy worse. I worked under the Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton and Bush Fuck Up administrations, so I know.
I shudder to think what it is like now under the Spawn Of Satan’ Adminisration. It has to be like drunken school children raiding the candy store with Pukaski’s.
But hey…elections have consequences and barring a thermo nuclear war, our country will survive and somebody will be there to pick up the pieces. I’m just glad I won’t be one of them this time.
I mean…you can disagree with me all you want about politics, as most of you fire dogs do, but there isn’t any doubt the Democrats are better for land management agencies and the enviroment than Republicans. But if that isn’t your hot button issue…that’s cool with me, I don’t like electric cars anyway.
True story. When I went to the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride, I said I would only go if they would also send both of my two old friends who had been on the Battlement Creek Fire with me. Those other bastards on the committee were being pretty nasty to me and I wanted some back up, so they agreed to my demand. Both of them were still USFS employees, one in Alaska and one in Montana so it was easy for them to do…expensive, but easy.
Anyway, one of them was my old sawyer partner (he ran first saw and I ran the number two saw, in other words…he was THE crew sawyer) who had been jumpin’ out of Missoula since he left the crew 30 years earlier.
Wow…this is a long story with very little pay off, but here we go. When we went the first day to go meet Shawna Legarza for lunch so she could tell us she was going to sell out the WF as a management hack and we walked out to the parking lot where my car was parked, which was a Honda Accord Hybrid (I never made that mistake again) he stopped short…spread out his arms and exclaimed in dismay, “Where do you put your FIREWOOD!”
Notice how I did that, complimented Joy and then immediately pivoted to fuck with BLM managers, USFS managers, politicians in general and Republicans in particular and nailed Shawn’s yet again for selling her soul to get to the top of the USFS FIRE program.
Athough she did make it all of the way to the top, which is pretty damn impressive for an ex hotshot crew boss And I did all of that while spinning a yarn as cover. I love being an old guy…except for the old part.
Oh…and brag about myself yet again. Although I’m not sure bragging that I got sent in for two Fitness For Duty psychological examinations is something MOST people would brag about?
Those BLM managers thought I must be crazy to fuck with them as much as I did. But nope…I was a SANE person just trying to cope while working inside an INSANE agency. It really was a good thing I knew where so many bodies were buried (because I had buried most of them or at least dug the holes) or I never would have made it to the finish line.
Oh…those BLM managers didn’t like the results of the first tests..so the bastards sent me in for another set of tests with another whole different set of both psychologists and psychiatrist doctors in a different state.
Those BLM managers were some real motherfuckers…but hey, it’s all behind me now!
And you can tell I never even think about more than in the morning, the afternoon and always at night. Talk about PTSD…I have PTSD just from trying to be a good employee in a really bad agency.
Okay…I’m on a roll. The very first “one on one” meeting I went to with a BLM State Director just a few short months after I went to work for them as a Special Agent. I went in…sat there for a few minutes while he kept writing
Finally he looked up and said, “Gary…….long pregnant pause, you do good work but…..another really long pregnant pause…you leave too many bodies on the trail.”
And then he went back to writing and I finally got up and walked out of his big corner office.
The very last meeting I went to with a BLM State Director (and the entire state management team including the Associate State Director) when the meeting was over and everyone was starting to pick up their notebooks etc., the Associate State Director looked at me and said, “What are you going to do now Gary…call 60 Minutes?”
And I was so proud of myself…I replied without missing a beat, “No Carl…I know how the game is played.”
I didn’t think that hill was worth risking dying on yet again… mostly because I was so close to the finish line.
Oh…and one more thing. It’s no wonder I went to the epicanthic border to work as much as I could.
The people I met there were a lot better class of people than I met in BLM Management Team meetings.
Those managers were some real motherfuckers, whoops, starting to repeat myself…again. I love being an old man…except for the old part.
Epicanthic…what the fuck does that even mean Apple Automatic Spell Correct?
“MEXICAN Border”
Whoops…I should have written that everyone on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride Developement Committee were nasty to me except for the Chairperson of that committee, the San Juan Hotshot Crew Boss Shawna Legarza.
Shawna treated me with kindness and respect and humored me as much as she possibly could, right up to the point of telling the truth about what really happened on the Battlement Creek Fire.
The rest of the committee were all, or almost all, ex hotshot crew bosses who were in certified fire god level jobs at that point in their careers with grand titles.
Talk about about some really big egos, that bunch made me look as humble as Fred…almost. Their only problem was I had been beaten like a rented mule by some top shelf BLM managers who were some real motherfuckers for the previous 18 years, so none of those little bitches (non gender specific) intimidated or impressed me.
And needless to say, they didn’t think I belonged there and although their yapping and whining didn’t intimidate me, it did irritate me and since I was retiring, I was wayyyy over being irritated by a bunch of little bitches (non gender specific) so I resigned from Shawna’s committee.
I was really surprised that a lowly hotshot crew boss was ramrod for that bunch of ego driven arrogant bastards full of hubris, until I figured out Shawna had been identified for greatness wayyyyy early in her career.
And after I met her I understood why. Shawna was highly educated, intelligent, motivated, driven and squared away. And most of all, she was a really nice person who was politically savvy and very smooth. I could see why she was going far….and I’ll be damned, I was right. But just to be clear, being a woman certainly didn’t hurt her, but she had all of the boxes checked to get were she is at.
So….do I feel like a no good rat snitch bastard for doing what I am doing? Nope…like I have written many times. I’m not here to make friends or expand my Christmas Card List. If you can’t do the time…don’t do the crime.
And now it’s my turn…I control what I write here and elsewhere. Pay back is a real BITCH, (non gender specific).
Oh…and one more thing, I am very well aware that very few of you if any, are particularly interested in what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire or the Loop Fire.
You are interested in what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire as I am. BUT…here is where my connecting data points and common threads between all of those fires come in.
IF…the truth would have been told about the Loop Fire and IF…the truth would have been told about the Battlement Crrek Fire, then maybe…just maybe, however small the chance would have been, maybe the Yarnell Hill Hill Fire would just be one more forgotten fire by now, you know…except for those people directly impacted by it like the residents of Yarnell etc.
Have you noticed I quit throwing rocks at the Prescott Fire Department years ago? And have now quit bitchin’ about Hybrid Firefighters (I leave that task to the Woodsman) I can see clearly now what the real problem is.
And it isn’t the Prescott Fire Department or Hybrid Fitefighters, it is a systemic failure and a refusal by the entire fuckin’ wildland firefighting complex to be honest with themselves or anyone else.
Like I have written several times…thank God the National Trasportation Safety Board isn’t like them or none of us would be any safer now traveling by air or common carrier than we were when the NTSB was first formed.
Gary,
I am so glad that you are retired and can be candid in your remarks.
I am learning from your remarks about the BLM and the fire system.
Hi Diane,
Thanks and welcome back.
TO REPLY ON THESE:
Gary Olson says
MARCH 30, 2018 AT 11:11 AM
Wow…you really do know guns and stuff about them
————————
Gary Olson says
APRIL 1, 2018 AT 1:18 PM
Okay…okay…okay, Joy, you know more about guns and calibers, ballistics and gun trivia than anyone I have ever known and wayyyy more than me. And that bothers me…just a little bit. Say…when is the last time you had a psychological examination and passed it?….Notice how I did that, complimented Joy and then immediately pivoted to fuck with BLM managers, USFS managers, politicians in general and Republicans in particular and nailed Shawn’s yet again for selling her soul to get to the top of the USFS FIRE program.
——————————
JOY’S REPLY:
I will appease your distraction techniques Gary….
and reply below-
yet we do know most skim you and me when they come here when we talk this stuff because they figure
there they go again those two
so let’s think of something good this time around…got anything?
I don’t.
Happy April Fool’s Day
and
Happy Easter!
Very apropos that this would come up on Easter Sunday Gary about “crazy”
They also thought Jesus was crazy
to the point that they were willing to crucify him for speaking the Truth.
And even in their ignorance Jesus still said forgive them for they know not what they do.
I look at it this way Gary…look at how many truly celebrate Easter for its pure definitions versus the commercial end of it…
have you ever went to church and saw Mr. Norton snoring away during a sermon?
is it the modus operandi and that it is very routine? uninteresting? Is the Holy Spirit not in that sanctuary or is it so much so it puts you so relaxed you nod off? How does one get the requisite skills of passing the message to us the people from Above and how many get the best messages while asleep? Does it have to always happen in a church? One man who is older than the mountain said he thought it was his weekly nap hour and would awake ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
I love politics and I love talking religion…
I do not get scared away
like one side of my family trained me to be a lover to the government and the Govt’ wants and needs for me- that never happened Gary— I am free as they come and I do not see that changing…that is where I do not see me yet fitting in to your certain parts to the industry
now my new industry too as a student to fire…I might have to earn my way through and not be able to ride the gravy promotion trains—
I am not a bacteria egg as one named their brother recently and I am not a trashy bunch of lizard shit either- She is getting up in her age and high up in the Mormon church but she sure has a way with words…but most people of Faith do
back to the guns because all this other talk is making me sad I do not have a place to worship Him just in my heart…sooooooo
the .300 blackout is not a new cartridge
It came out in the late 80s and was designed to shoot with a sound suppressor and was called the .300 whisper and designed for hunting up to 200 yards quietly and why it was called whisperer and never meant to be a war fighting battle cartridge for wild boars and such. Its fat and slow…like me. They do load it faster but it still performs worse than a 7.62 x39 AK bullet
AK round is still better
As for the grendel and why I would marry it over man …the most distance and energy out of a standard AR. Most bang. Meaning power Gary. The grendel would never leave my side and makes me feel equal.
You have the right to keep and arm bears Gary….I mean bear arms…or is it bare arms?
https://www.google.com/search?q=you+have+the+right+to+bare+arms&rlz=1C1SNNT_enUS599US599&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj81OLtu5raAhUOEHwKHTzxAJcQ_AUICigB&biw=1536&bih=760#imgrc=R1apWU3snhc89M:
I have a hard time with comprehension one of my flaws I must say. I look forward to be a long term student of fire and good thing I have poor comprehension I will fit in just perfect with the party
The delayed roller block action of the HK was originally in the mg42…Hitler’s zipper so I was hoping Gary you would say I did not know ENOUGH about guns but you didn’t but in 1960s HK got the design from CETME in Spain for the HK 91 and then they made a smaller for the MP5.
Funny how a German company would pay a Spanish company for a German design. ?????
I had a psychological test almost 2 years into my trails with Sonny and they said I was a-ok and sharp and both licensed counselors are dear to me today on a personal level- we talk and hike and do medical massages together and always been great visits. I was being qualified to do contracted work and also passed those tests to help criminally minded mentally challenged folks learn the tools to lead a productive life vs homeless or gained more independence for the people struggling just to be a part to this modern life. I have taken a almost 60 year old Native American Lady who had a lobotomy and I was told to feed her pureed foods and I must feed her because she was unable to feed herself but I was able with no talk speak with her and in a much cave woman mannerisms by example showed her she can do it on her own. Same lady was in wheel chair and after a few months she was walking 3 miles the 7 day shift every other week that I worked and you saw how proud she was in how she stood and smiled. Sometimes some of us need that specialized time and attention to grow in life….
So yeah never be afraid of me Gary because I am God’s and I know and practice safety always even ask fire chief Pete Anderson…safety first with me always…and I am so glad Norb you got to meet Pete very much so—because human factors and safety will always be my platform on the aftermath of the YHF and many fires.
Good night. Rough 2 hours so nap time.
NEW CHAPTER PLEASE…
I have to hear Diane and Norb and Rocksteady, John.
please
also always write your comment than come here and copy and paste because the longer on page writing the better chance the captcha locks up
oh and Gary remember…yep… remember eyes and ears right here— are not working so well but well enough to know and feel truths…get your foia and public records or privacy act records today and include the names who you feel need to be included- I did the ones who did me harm to see where they laid in this all— I have to state some are just in a grieving process and that includes FFs and every day folks not just the ones affected by 6-30-13 directly…
Gee whiz, I already unconditionally surrendered, you win already!
Oh…and it goes without saying that now IF the truth is told about the Loop, Battlement Creek and Yarnell Hill Fires, maybe…just maybe…however small the chance may be…the next hotshot disaster fire will never happen?
This is because the fact is, none of those fires were the primary cause of the deaths of any of the El Cariso, Mormon Lake or Granite Mountain Hotshots. Their leaders were the primary cause of those deaths…that’s the truth.Oh…and one more thing, I am very well aware that very few of you if any, are particularly interested in what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire or the Loop Fire.
You are interested in what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire as I am. BUT…here is where my connecting data points and common threads between all of those fires come in.
IF…the truth would have been told about the Loop Fire and IF…the truth would have been told about the Battlement Crrek Fire, then maybe…just maybe, however small the chance would have been, maybe the Yarnell Hill Hill Fire would just be one more forgotten fire by now, you know…except for those people directly impacted by it like the residents of Yarnell etc.
Have you noticed I quit throwing rocks at the Prescott Fire Department years ago? And have now quit bitchin’ about Hybrid Firefighters (I leave that task to the Woodsman) I can see clearly now what the real problem is.
And it isn’t the Prescott Fire Department or Hybrid Fitefighters, it is a systemic failure and a refusal by the entire fuckin’ wildland firefighting complex to be honest with themselves or anyone else.
Like I have written several times…thank God the National Trasportation Safety Board isn’t like them or none of us would be any safer now traveling by air or common carrier than we were when the NTSB was first formed.
Double whoops.
On March 26, 2018 at 12:29 pm, Gary Olson said…
——————————————————————————————————-
As I have written before, I am a student of the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and the Yarnell Hill Fires. All of course are the wildfires that killed Hotshots with flames, as opposed to random accidental deaths.
I am researching and writing about the data points all of these fires have in common and the threads that run through all of them. These common data points and threads meet the very definition of George Santayana’s famous quote.
https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana
I hope to use my research and writing to beat “them” like the low down dirty dogs they are. These fire gods are now epitomized by my old friend…Shawna Legarza.
————————————————————————————————————
On March 26, 2018 at 6:57 pm, Woodsman said…
———————————————————————————————————–
“Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
George Santayana
———————————————————————————————————–
On March 28, 2018 at 11:20 am, Gary Olson also said…
( Regarding the similarities between the fatalities at the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and the Yarnell Hill Fires )…
———————————————————————————————————–
The system flaws were revealed for most to look at, very but few to see, which probably resulted in no changes and every since then we have just been lucky which will continue until the next time it happens.
————————————————————————————————————
“The system flaws were revealed for most to look at, very but few to see.”
And that is why so many have worked so hard ( for so long ) even just on this particular forum.
Not just to LOOK ( at every possible detail )… but to truly SEE… and genuinely increase the chances of saving the lives that have yet to be extinguished.
Carry on.
I’m impressed. I thought that was a “sleeper line” that would go unnoticed. And of course I was taking a shot at many, or maybe even most of “them”, but clearly I intended to exclude those who participate here on this thread.
I believe this impromptu crowd sourcing social investigation, review and analysis of the Yarnell Hill Fire is truly the first wildfire disaster investigation in the history that an honest alternative to what is the standard cover up and fairy tale that has always been the product of corrupt and mismanaged agency hacks with the heroic exception on Dr. Ted Putnam, who until now has been the one light in the darkness of deception, obfuscation, and obstruction systemically practiced by the agencies to cover up the true primary, secondary and causal factors in literally every serious accident wildfire investigation to date in order to protect those agencies and the civil servants running them and the careers of those who were directly responsible for the mismanagement, malfesonce, and incompetence with a conspiracy of lies, deception and half truths.
All of this while they were in reality committing very serious felony violations of federal law, one in particular everyone who watches the news should be very familiar with by now thanks to the Adminisrarion of President Trump. And that is 18 USC 1001 and not only sent Martha Stewart to federal prison for years, but may in the end bring down this current Presidency. I am not advocating or saying I want that to happen because I think there is at least some risk of serious civil disturbances and some level of civil war which will result in good people being killed on both sides…my people.
In other words, I am trying to emphasize this law, 18 USC 1001 isn’t an obscure and little known, understood or used federal statute. It is a workhorse and is used on a regular basis by all federal agents, not just those in the FBI.
I used this law all of the time in my previous life to help hold people accountable for their actions and enforce the rule of law that is currently being ignored and flaunted by SERIOUS ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION TEAMS on a regular basis in order to generate false and misleading SERIOUS ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION REPORTS AND CIVER UPS!
And guess what? Several experts have agreeed with me, my “Smoking Gun” from the Battlement Creek Fire Investigation is indeed a Smoking Gun, that now can’t be oversold because it is what it is.
And what it is, is a classic example of how the corrupt and mismanaged wildland firefighting agencies, specifically the U.S. Forest Service in this particular case, has been violating 18 USC 1001 among other federal statutes for decades now.
It is finally time for a little expose, which of course is well beyond the statute of limitations for prosecution, but hopefully the next one won’t be. And just as a little reminder, you need to be aware that federal law views the OMMISSION of facts…exactly like it views LIES pertaining to those same facts. STOP IT! AND DON’T DO IT ANYMORE! We the People, will be watching…YOU PEOPLE.
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 47 › § 1001
18 U.S. Code § 1001 – Statements or entries generally
US Code
Notes
Authorities (CFR)
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both. If the matter relates to an offense under chapter 109A, 109B, 110, or 117, or section 1591, then the term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be not more than 8 years.
(b) Subsection (a) does not apply to a party to a judicial proceeding, or that party’s counsel, for statements, representations, writings or documents submitted by such party or counsel to a judge or magistrate in that proceeding.
(c) With respect to any matter within the jurisdiction of the legislative branch, subsection (a) shall apply only to—
(1) administrative matters, including a claim for payment, a matter related to the procurement of property or services, personnel or employment practices, or support services, or a document required by law, rule, or regulation to be submitted to the Congress or any office or officer within the legislative branch; or
(2) any investigation or review, conducted pursuant to the authority of any committee, subcommittee, commission or office of the Congress, consistent with applicable rules of the House or Senate.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 749; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(L), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147; Pub. L. 104–292, § 2, Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3459; Pub. L. 108–458, title VI, § 6703(a), Dec. 17, 2004, 118 Stat. 3766; Pub. L. 109–248, title I, § 141(c), July 27, 2006, 120 Stat. 603.)
Good stuff Gary,
Here is a link for Leadership and Biographical information on Dr. Putnam.
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/leaders_meet/interviews/leaders_TedPutnam.html
I will follow up at another time with his article titled: “Accidents, accident guides, stories and the truth.”
This amazing paper is published in the Proceedings of 11th International Wildland Fire Safety Summit, April 4-8, 2011, Missoula, Montana, USA; Published by the International Association of Wildland Fire, Missoula, Montana, USA
Right on, need that for my book. Thanks
Gary,
I emailed you a copy
Need a new chapter… can’t post
Here is one of the main issues with the business of wildland firefighting in the United States: it’s an exclusive club. You’re in or you’re out. I’m lookin at you Todd fucking Abel, you wannabe wildfire guru battalion chief motherfucker. There’s two kinds of firefighters in the wildland arena: those who have progressed through the system the right way & those who have ‘fast-tracked’ bypassing the accepted advancement practices & poof! Big-time qualifications overnight. I’m lookin at YOU, Darryl Willis.
The life or death situation on the firelines of America manifests itself when those working on the fire don’t actually know which class their leaders come from either through ignorance or voluntary cognitive dissonance. So let me ask you: who is your supervisor & more importantly, how did they get there? Recognition of the answer to this question and hedging accordingly in your daily risk analysis JUST MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE!
Nothing can be taken for granted or assumed in the business of wildland firefighting. The sooner you accept this reality, the more likely you & those around will have an accident free successful mission. So, let’s THINK out there, people. It’s not rocket science!
The Woodsman
Lesson #2
The pervasive national Let It Burn Unofficial Official Policy
The powers that be want it all to burn. At first glance one may believe this ideology is in reaction to a hundred year philosophy of maximum fire exclusion from the landscape… but it’s actually more than that, way more. The people behind the curtain pulling the strings as it were WANT IT ALL TO BURN. Why, you ask? Because it’s good for fuel reduction therefore lessening the impacts from wildfires that are likely to occur? Well, yes but it’s more than that. It is believed by some of those in power that humans are a blight to the planet, fire is a natural part of the ecology of the land, and by default it NEEDS to burn for the cleansing of mother earth. Oops, I almost forgot: just as the enormity of the military/industrial complex was identified years ago our society has entrenched another similar phenomenon: the wildfire/industrial complex. Big fires pay, big time. So how about it residents of Curry county, Oregon? How about you, Gatlinburg? Ever wonder why it took the Park Service 3 freaking days to actually attempt to extinguish a small fire in the rocks? Now you know why.
THE Woodsman
.,.and if your home or your subdivision is in the way, TOO BAD, you shouldn’t have lived there anyway. You should live in a planned development with government water & sewer service. Mother Earth is more important than pesky human life. That’s the truth. You will not hear the truth, however. You will hear excuse after excuse. Failing to engage in aggressive initial attack in the name of firefighter safety is a common excuse. The old-timers know Exactly what I’m talking about. That’s what public information officers are used for: lying to the public in order to cover up the honest truth of what’s really being considered by fire managers in order to ‘contain’ a wildfire. FIRE USE, baby! Look it up.
Woodsman
And speaking of fire managers placing the needs of ‘the resource’ ahead of human life, I have a story to share. Before I continue, let me first say that I’ve reached the limits of my tolerance to keep my mouth shut in order to play along with the charade.
Look here, leaders of wildfire across the land, I’ve given you upwards of 6 MONTHS to give us a factual report on the 2, count them 2!, tree strike fatalies in Montana last July & August. That’s right 2 fatality by tree strike on the same forest 2 weeks apart.
#1 The condition of the Lolo & Beaverhead-Deerlodge national forests was shocking! Square mile after square mile of dead lodgepole, a true mess unlike I’ve ever witnessed before in 20 years of service. It’s my understanding that active forest management including tree harvesting & thinning has all but been eliminated from consideration due to special interest groups and subsequent litigation preventing stand thinning and other silvicultural practices from occurring. Thus the public forests are miles of standing & down timber ripe for burning when lightning strikes. What a shameful piece of ground!
I’ve carried this with me for over 6 months: I received an unsolicited in person first hand account of the events surrounding the death of hotshot Witham on the Lolo Peak fire. Fireline leaders opted for use of mechanized equipment for dead tree snag removal in the fireline construction area but were OVERRULED by forest personnel, their objection being it was in an area classified as PROPOSED WILDERNESS AREA. (It wasnt true designated wilderness yet) That’s right, no machinery allowed! Out came the mechanized tree harvester and in went the hotshots (hand crew.) On the first shift Mr. Witham was killed by a tree strike. In summary, I have one question for my readers: are fire managers putting the resource ahead of human life? My answer is YES, they are.
RIP, Brent Witham, you deserved better leadership across the board. Also, deepest prayers for the feller-buncher operator who related his personal account of the true happenings of that day to me. It’s not your fault!
Trenton Johnson of Grayback forestry type 2 crew was the victim of the tree strike fatality 2 weeks prior to this event on the same forest. While I have no first hand knowledge of the circumstances in his death, I wonder what if any unnecessary risks were taken due to consideration of the resource needs in comparison to the preservation of human life.
Woodsman
One can easily check behind my words if you don’t believe me. It’s written in black and white all over wildfire documents. Just go to the lessons learned center. There is an 11 min 26 sec video entitled ” Every Fire is an Opportunity to Treat a Landscape. ” This mentality has absolutely infected the management of wildfires in the United States today.
…….and everyone knows you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet, right? The civilians who lost their lives in Gatlinburg were the eggs. Afterall , every fire is an opportunity to treat a landscape. Read the management plan for GSM national park – reintroduce fire to the landscape as much as possible.
Dear Woodsman;
Whoa now…where did that come from.? What did I miss? In any case, you have certainly given me a lot to think about just after I finished watching the Stormy Daniels interview on “60 Minutes.” She is the gift that just keeps on giving!
And in return…here is what I have been thinking about today in the hope that it might give any WF who are still checking this thread something to think about while they are waiting for my much anticipated and highly acclaimed (at least conceptually) tome to be finished and published.
“I have been thinking a lot today about somebody in the USFS “authorizing” the El Cariso Hotshots and only them, to wear berets…black berets. I think that is really weird and the perfect metaphor or symbol for my theory that “Hubris is the number one killer of Hotshots.”
I mean…WTF, black berets? I knew that airborne units of the US Army are authorized to wear maroon berets and that Special Forces are authorized to wear green berets, like everyone else knows, but I was a little fuzzy on the black ones.
FYI…those used to be the sole honor for the glory covered 75th Ranger Regiment until General Shinseki, who was the Army Chief Of Staff at the time, fucked it up and decided everyone in the Army should wear a black beret…kind of like everyone getting blue ribbon for “participating.” And now the Rangers wear a tan one because Shinseki ruined what the black beret had come to symbolize for he elite Rangers first made famous for scaling the cliffs of Normandy on D Day.
But isn’t that weird, given the context of the time…1966, (while we were winning the Vietnam War, think John Wayne in “The Green Berets” and before Walter Cronkite decided we should just declare victory and withdraw after the disastrous Tet Offensive of 1968) that the El Cariso Hotshots would be considered so special somebody authorized them to wear black berets that were synonymous with the second only to Special Forces in fame…the storied Army Rangers?
As Hotshots, used to run in cadence to, “I want to be an Airborne Ranger, live a life of constant danger” etc. led by some an ex Vietnam door gunner and Huey Crew Chief who ended up being captured and held hostage by the Revolutionary Guard when the Shah was deposed because he was in Iran working under contract for Bell Helicopters for the Iranian Government and making a bunch of money at the time.
Anyway…I have been writing a chapter on the whole concept in my head today. Those black berets killed 12 El Cariso Hotshots (at least partially…no, they were symbolically totally responsible, or at least what the black berets symbolized was totally responsible for those deaths) and severely burned a bunch more of those stupid glory driven fucks who had a terminal case of “Hero Complex.”
Think about it.
Whoops, I meant to write, “as Hotshots, during my early years we used to “run in formation singing in cadence,” not running in cadence.
That tradition was lost once the Vietnam guys were all gone from our crew. But…it was inspiring while it lasted…I guess?
Running in formation and singing in cadence like Airborne Ranger wannabes was like a lot of things hotshot crew managers do to build esprit de corps that motivate ordinary people to do extraordinary things while working as the “tip of the WF spear” in situations that would make most people run the other way while saying…”FUCK THIS SHIT; I’m outta here!”
FYI,
As I have written before, I am a student of the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and the Yarnell Hill Fires. All of course are the wildfires that killed Hotshots with flames, as opposed to random accidental deaths.
I am researching and writing about the data points all of these fires have in common and the threads that run through all of them. These common data points and threads meet the very definition of George Santayana’s famous quote.
https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana
I hope to use my research and writing to beat “them” like the low down dirty dogs they are. These fire gods are now epitomized by my old friend…Shawna Legarza.
Unfortunately, my very own personal most beloved and respected fire god, Bill Buck is in this same group. Like I have written many times, I don’t have any secrets from you, who are indeed among my closest friends and confidants.
There are just things I haven’t had a chance to tell you about yet and that will eventually include the “Smoking Gun” I am in possession of that Bill used to kill the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire.
SPOILER ALERT – The Battlement Creek Fire SAIT was in possession of this smoking gun but…wait for it….they covered it up and it was not mentioned in their final SAIR or anywhere else until it was sent to me 30 years later.
God Bless America!
Oh…and one more thing. It took my participation in this on going discussion for the past five years to “see” these common data points and threads in context after staring at them for years without seeing them and understanding what they are.
Now…I just have to be able to paint a picture for you by connecting the dots (data point and threads) one at a time so your eyes will be opened as well.
I hope I can do it.
Well, Big G, grab a brush & a sheet of canvas & hop to it. Lives of good people are at stake here. There’s a better chance somebody will listen to you as your credentials are rock solid in the world of hotshots…if I recall, some of the best times of your life?
“Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
George Santayana
OK…I’m on it. I will actually work on a Readers Digest version so I don’t have to wait for my book to come out to share my nuggets of wisdom and insight.
Plus…with those of you who are still here, I can skip the lengthy back story because you already know that part and you “get it.”
And yes…being a Wildland Firefighter and specifically a grunt and a ground pounder was the happiest times of my life. I have to insist on that because I was always so jealous and resentful of the luxurious life those who showed up in either their own engines or helicopters enjoyed.
And as I have said before, my happy place is back in the shadow of the magnificent Sangre de Christo Mountains in the Land Of Enchantment, Nuevo Mexico.
I liked Flagstaff as well, but I didn’t work or live most of the time in Flagstaff. I worked all of the time and lived most of the time at Happy Jack on the Long Valley Ranger District in the middle of friggin’ nowhere. It was like being at a Special Operations Group, Forward Operating Base where the Lord Of The Flies meets Animal House. So it is kind of hard to call that my “Happy Place.” A great place to learn how to be a hotshot, but…
Fun Fact…New Mexico has to print USA on their license plates because so many ignorant people in the rest of the country think anyone with a New Mexico plate is from a foreign country.
Oh…and one more thing. Whenever I have floated my “Hubris is the number one killer of hotshots to people who are former hotshots or those who know what it means to be a hotshot, they invariably say something like, “Yes, but hotshots have to have that in order to do their job.”
Which of course I agree with, but it is nuanced. Now of course if RTS were responding to this he would write something about no one needs hubris to be an effective hotshot, humility and an absence of braggadocio is far more important. So, just to be clear…I use hubris and “confidence” on a level of between 1 and 10 at a borderline 11 interchangeably. It is just easier to type or say,
one word…”hubris.”
And at the risk of using yet another totally inaccurate military comparison to WF because wildfires can’t think and due to the simple fact it has to follow the laws of nature, I am going to use one simply because it is easy to visualize.
“Those who recruit, train, supervise and manage hotshots have to pump them up and convince them of their own superiority and invincibility in order to make them believe they can succeed by fully committing to a full frontal assault on the machine gun position because they are just that good.”
That is what prepares ordinary people to be able and willing to undertake extraordinary tasks when their primordial survival instinct tells them to run away.
Now…this concept works really good most of the time because those who are actually leading the hotshots on the fireline understand and know how to apply “nuance” while prosecuting their missions and they know you don’t really charge the machine gun nest, you just know you could and be successful if it was really necessary to do so, but it’s not necessary or a good idea because you will probably DIE and beating the wildfire is never THAT important.
We only know of three times in the history of hotshots when this system has experienced catastrophic failure because those who were actually leading the hotshots failed to appropriately apply nuance at the appropriate time in the appropriate way. And of course that was on the Loop, Battlement Creek and Yarnell Hill Fires.
Think about it though. On those three fires, those hotshots had the discipline, confidence, courage, commitment, loyalty and belief in themselves and their leaders…they followed them into the maw of hell.
Is “into the maw of hell” to corny? All of those who died were burned alive…so I don’t think so.
And just as a reminder, I always exclude the South Canyon Fire on Storm King Mountain which is often mistakenly called the Storm King Mountain Fire.
Based on my study of that fire, those 9 Prineville Hotshots died more like the 7th Calvary Troopers died with General Custer at the Battle Of The Little Big Horn. There was no leadership present that day or a Last Stand.
There was only chaos, confusion, disorganization and panic, retreat, disaster and ultimately…horrible deaths.
I received some constructive criticism for my literary use of the comparison of how the Troopers in the 7th Calvary died in the Battle Of The Little Big Horn, so I am going to try and explain myself.
I know that sometimes when someone asks me what time it is, I tell them how to build a watch. So I do try to keep it short, but by doing so, especially in this abbreviated format, a lot is left out and is open to interpretation.
If you detected a tone of disgust and anger in my comparison, it was there, but was not directed at either the 9 Prineville Hotshots, the 2 helitack or the 3 smokejumpers who were burned alive on the steep slope of Storm King Mountain and this includes the jumper in charge and IC Don Mackey, nor the 274 Troopers and Induan Scouts who died from the 7th Calvary.
My anger in both cases is directed at the government who was responsible for all of the loss in both cases. The BLM in the first and the Department Of Army in the second, combined with the arrogance and criminal stupidity of General Custer which I think has been well documented and accepted by mainstream experts.
I think the original sins in the Battle Of The Little Big Horn, staying completely out of the moral right or wrong of the Indian Wars, was sending Troopers to fight an adversary with inferior weapons because the federal government was just to damn cheap and corrupt to provide its soldiers with the latest and best weapons that were available that incidentally their adversaries did have.
It was not only a lope sided battle in terms of numbers (several hundred against several thousand) but the Troopers were armed with single shot rifles whereas their adversaries had repeating rifles.
In terms of the chaos, confusion, disorganization etc. during the Battle Of The Little Big Horn and ultimate horrible deaths, I was referring to the latest archeological research (that I believe is accurate) that shows that rather than a disciplined and organized defense of their position resulting in a heroic last stand, it was rather hundreds of separate battles between individual combatants in complete confusion resulting in a total breakdown of command and control which resulted in a confused melee and slaughter of the Troopers, which was the fault of management, not the individual soldiers who gave their lives for their country and deserved much better.
As far as the South Canyon Fire goes, I have expressed my opinion in some detail regarding that fire on this thread before.
But as a short reminder, those wildland firefighters deserved much better from the government represented by the BLM as well because the BLM’s incompetence and failed policies resulted in those WF losing their lives for their country as well when it was totally avoidable and unnecessary.
The specific policy I am referring to is the BLM’s policy to make the first jumper out of the door the jumper in charge and Incident Commander regardless of their qualifications or skill set.
This probably works okay most of the time on small isolated smokejumper fires with very few people and resources to manage, but I think it can quickly become problamatic on larger and more complex fires.
I think it has been well documented that Don Mackey, although he was technically qualified to be IC, was more suited to keeping his head down and building fireline than managing a complex fire with mixed resources and agencies in a real hodgepodge of personnel, because Mackey had his head down constructing fireline when he should have been heads up with complete situational awareness to see they were constructing fireline ABOVE an uncontrolled wildfire without any anchor points on a very steep slope in what the Colorado Division Of Forestry calls Fuel Type X, that is frost killed Gamble Oak up to 12 feet high that is so explosive, fires in that fuel type have been documented to run down and kill adult mule deer, in addition to the fact that the area had been burned earlier by a ground fire through the understory that further prepped the overstory to literally explode in what was a giant canyon and natural chimney, with the WF above the fire when it did finally go off like a bomb.
And on top of that, the senior BLM engine supervisor from the local area was in charge until the jumpers showed up and then Mackey was in charge for some things, but the other guy was still in charge for other things and it kind of went back and forth which resulted in no one really being in charge.
And into this mess went an entire squad of 9 Prineville Hotshots from Oregon by helicopter insertion who were unfamiliar with the area or Fuel Type X.
Neither the Prineville Hotshot Crew Boss nor their Number 2 were with the squad that was sent in, they were both still waiting down at the helibase with the second squad and never made it to the fire when things went to hell in a hand basket.
I don’t think it is uncommon for a squad boss under those circumstances to lack the juice (status and influence) to call bullshit on the situation and refuse to go along in order to get along.
Now…that is my short interpretation of just some of the things that went wrong on the South Canyon Fire. Iif I have it wrong, I will be more than happy to read or listen to an opposing assessment and if it makes sense, I will modify my position accordingly on both the South Canyo Fire and the Battle Of The Little Big Horn.
I know I do have a tendency to blame management first and ask questions later given my long and at times unhappy relationship with “the suits”, especially those in the BLM who fucked up the Battlement Creek Fire as well and then blamed the firefighters for their incompetence and malfeasance, whoops….getting angry again, time to sign off.
Oh…and one more thing. The reason all of those firefighters were cutting fireline in a giant chimney above an uncontrolled wildfire in Fuel Type X…is because that’s where they all initially ended up in the first place.
And then on one ever looked around and said wait a minute…something is wrong with this scenario.
The helitack flew in to a ridge top and constructed a helispot because that’s what helitack do.
The hotshots were transported by the helitack to the helispot on the ridge top because that’s what hotshots do.
The smokejumpers jumped in and landed by parachuteo on the ridge top near the helispot because that’s what smokejumpers do.
And then everyone started cutting fireline from there because that’s what wildland firefighters do.
In hindsight, they didn’t need a helicopter or a helispot or any smokejumpers because there was an interstate highway running along the point of origin and the base of the fire.
Everyone could have simply gotten out of their vehicles, hiked up to the base of the fire and started constructing handline along the flank of the fire with a solid anchor point like the manual and all of their training told them to do. WTF…Over?
Oh…and several smokejumpers were further up the slope and they made it to the top and over the leeward side and survived.
One smokejumper, Eric Hipke, barely made it and survived with serious burns just in front of what really does sound more like an explosion than a fire front.
And Don Mackey could have survived, but he ran back down the slope to help the hotshots, so there’s that then…
Everything looks simple from my La-Z Boy recliner. I have all of the answers…just ask me because that’s what old men do.
Gary,
Thanks for the South Canyon Fire refresher once again and the Little Big Horn information.
I have a few points of clarification and emphases to make.
First off, IC Mackey was not building any fireline but was sharpening his chainsaw instead of managing the fire, a clear sign of stress and resorting to what one is most familiar with,
Second, the frost-killed chaparral was a major contributor to both the 1976 Battlement Creek Fire and the 1994 South Canyon Fires. It becomes basically freeze-dried whereby all the fuel moisture is removed making it aggressively volatile and a kindling-like contribution to the extremely low fuel moisture making the entire fuel bed available to burn violently.
http://coloradofirecamp.com/battlement-creek/vegetation-fuels.htm
In August 1983 a grass fire occurred at the Little Big Horn Battlefield in
Montana,which allowed archeologists to use metal detectors to locate shell casings and bullets and such.
I am positive i read that they concluded that the movie version of the Indians riding around the 7th Cavalry in circles was mostly drama and therefore false. However, I am unable to locate the research on it.
What the archeologists actually found were numerous sniper shooting holes with remnant shell casings at each one where they picked off many of them that way.
RTS,
Thank you, it has been a few years since I have studied the South Canyon Fire and I have never really focused on it so I knew I was off on some details.
However, I was pretty sure I had the gist of it right and you have confirmed that because you didn’t rip me apart.
One very interesting thing though, is the new information to me that Mackey was sharpening his chain saw which I never knew. And yes, as I have written many times, when all of us are under stress we revert to our ingrained training, which of course is why good training is so important, especially that training that simulates real world experiences.
And I am far from an expert on the Battle Of The Little Big Horn. I have mostly just always focused on the fact that a mismanaged and corrupt federal government sent US soldiers to fight a dirty war with inferior and drastically outdated weapons, probably because I am a gun nut and I always identify with those grunts in the trenches. I have never been able to visualize myself as what the vets used to call a REMF.
And BINGO…you hit on one of my favorite bones to chew on I did not mention in order to keep my post…shorter. And that is Fuel Type X on the South Canyon Fire.
I am not a student of the South Canyon Fire because as I have said, I don’t consider it a hotshot fatality fire like the Loop, Battlement Creek and the Yarnell Hill fires. I think it is a hotshot related fatality fire because 9 hotshots were burned alive on it, but I personally don’t think the mistakes that were made on it were hotshot mistakes. Nor do I think Mackey was was primarily responsible for what went wrong, he was both a victim and a hero.
I do however, believe deeply flawed agency policies which were revealed in a catastrophic failure that reflected systemic faults that were accepted because the cascading events of the South Canyon Fire hadn’t lined up (Swiss Cheese Effect) since the Battlement Creek Fire, a whole 18 years earlier and we as a species, or at least as a culture have pretty fucking short memories, to fall like dominoes. In that, if any one of them would have been removed from the sequence or equation, no one would have died and the South Canyon Fire would just be one more forgotten wildfire that was “successfully” fought.
But instead…the system flaws were revealed for most to look at, very but few to see, which probably resulted in no changes and every since then we have just been lucky which will continue until the next time it happens.
Speaking of the perils of ignoring the lessons of the history, I am working on my next MOAP (mother of all posts) that is going to include the common data points and threads that run between the Battlement Creek and South Canyon Fires, even though as I said, I am not as interested in the South Canyon Fire as I am the others, I leave that task to “generalists” in wildland firefighter safety such as yourself.
I have however, always been interested in those common data points between the two fires, which I find dumbfounding and a true indictment of the BLM Fire management people, especially those in the local area of Grand Junction.
Here are some of them off the top of my head,
Both fires,
1. Were in the same specific fuel type, which was the infamous but little known and understood (outside of the Colorado Division Of Forestry, I guess?) nicknamed Fuel Type X.
2. Out of state hotshots were killed on both fires who were unfamiliar with the area and specific fuel type.
3. Both fires had mixed inter agency resources between the BLM and USFS, which made them inherently more complex and difficult to manage which required higher expertise than the first jumper out of the fucking plane had!
4. Both fires burned at the same time of year with very close dates of occurrence.
5. Both fires trapped and killed wildland firefighters working in huge canyons and natural chimneys ABOVE THE FIRES!
6. Both fires burned on very steep slopes in very rugged terrain.
7. Fire conditions were nearly identical, including severe but anticipated winds.
8. Both fires were managed by the BLM.
9. Neither Fire investigative report identified any agency or system failures and were cover ups.
10. And my favorite…wait for it…Battlement Mesa and Storm King Mountain are only about 50 miles apart. Fuck Me!
I don’t want to oversell my “ Smoking Gun” claim. I never intended to wait this long to publish it but frankly, I have never had the format to do so before now. And the reason I don’t want to oversell it it, is because it will probably mean precious little to precious few and maybe just me because I know the complete backstory and I can see it for what it is. Written proof of a cover up of the Battlement Creek Fire and as far as I am concerned, a damning indictment of the entire system of agency fire investigation cover ups and proof of the dirty way the U.S. Forest Service in particular has operated for decades.
You know Mr, Mike Dudley, there wouldn’t be so many crazy cover up conspiracy theorists out here if there weren’t so fucking many governments cover ups that are revealed at regular intervals. It is also proof to me at least that Shawna Legarza isn’t the first fire god, nor will she be the last to sell her soul for self advancement.
Although…in the meantime RTS, I am curious what you will think of it and if you read it the same way I do (I might be a little off in my perspective since I am more than a little off the Rez) so I will send it to you just in case the USFS has me whacked and my hard drive “disappeared.” This way, they will have to wack you as well…Good Luck old friend!
See…18 USC 1001 and know the law viers an OMMISSION the very same way it views a LIE.
Speaking of being s gun nut and providing the best battle rifle possible for our troops and going back to an earlier discussion between Joy and I, I just want to state for the record I am a huge fan of the new Heckler & Koch 27 they are starting to equip our Marines with even though they cost more than 3 times what an FN Herstal manufactured M4 does. I can’t wait to get one of those nasty little bitches (non gender specific) for myself.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M27_Infantry_Automatic_Rifle
Joy…although it looks like they are still way behind both of us on the need to upgrade to a heavier bullet like the .300 Blackout and I can’t remember you Serbian pick? Which is probably like I said before, we are too invested in the .556 NATO, probably because it was our idea in the first place?
God Bless America and Our Troops! Somebodies children are dying and suffering life long injuries, including PTSD for the rest of us.
As you can probably tell, I was heavily influenced by the few Vietnam combat vets on our crew at a young and very impressionable age.
I don’t know if we belonged in Vietnam or not, but I think I did. I think I would have made a good grunt and ground pounder. But then again…we all know what a high opinion I have of myself.
Woodsman,
Thanks for the good lessons.
This sure got you riled up Woodsman enough to write your spot post about “Todd fucking Abel, you wannabe wildfire guru battalion chief motherfucker” and “those who have ‘fast-tracked’ bypassing the accepted advancement practices & poof! Big-time qualifications overnight. I’m lookin at YOU, Darryl Willis.”
Good stuff sir. Feel free to share the details. Keep up the fine work.
**
** “ONLY THE BRAVE” MOVIE MARKETER WILL BE TRUMP’S 2020 CAMPAIGN MANAGER
You. Just. Can’t. Make. This. Shit. Up.
Brad Parscale, the guy who was hired by Blacklabel Media to help market the Yarnell Hill Fire Movie will now become Donald Trump’s actual 2020 Campaign Manager.
That is… if Trump isn’t in prison or hasn’t resigned or been impeached by then.
Variety magazine was the first media outlet to report about Brad Parscale being hired to promote the “Only The Brave” movie using both social media and tricks like HIRING former Navy Seals to ‘push’ the movie…
Variety
Article Title: ‘Only the Brave’ Taps Trump Digital Guru Brad Parscale
Published: October 19, 2017 2:00PM PT – By Brent Lang
http://variety.com/2017/film/news/only-the-brave-trump-brad-parscale-1202594267/
From that article…
———————————————————————————————————
Brad Parscale, the digital media director for Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign, was hired by the makers of “Only the Brave” to help the action-drama appeal to red-state moviegoers, Variety has learned.
Black Label Media, the film’s financier, retained Parscale to supplement online and social media marketing efforts. Sony Pictures is distributing the $38 million production.
Parscale advised the filmmakers to retain Marcus Luttrell, a former United States Navy SEAL whose heroic attempt to reach safety in Taliban-controlled parts of Afghanistan was dramatized in the 2013 film “Lone Survivor,” as an “influencer.” Luttrell was later paid to send out an email endorsement on the film’s behalf.
Parscale also suggested that the filmmakers emphasize charitable giving in an effort to avoid any criticism that “Only the Brave” was exploiting a real-life tragedy for profit. One suggestion Parscale offered was to create a digital ticker showing the amount that was going to charity. Parscale said they thought the approach might resonate with liberal moviegoers who wouldn’t be as interested in “Only the Brave.”
The film is targeted at heartland audiences, a group of moviegoers that Hollywood, a liberal-leaning industry, has struggled to reach in the past. Parscale’s efforts have been somewhat effective. Despite the weak tracking, insiders say the film is resonating more strongly in the South and Northwest, areas that are more receptive to President Trump.
The work was done through Parscale’s for-profit company Giles-Parscale. It has a number of corporate clients, including the Bank of San Antonio, Hotel Emma, and Trump International Reality. Parscale has said he is already working on Trump’s 2020 re-election effort. He was recently profiled on “60 Minutes,” where he talked about the critical role Facebook played in helping Trump pull off his 2016 election win.
———————————————————————————————————–
VOX
Article Title…
How Trump’s 2020 campaign manager is connected to the Russia scandal
Brad Parscale is linked to a data firm that has become a focus of the Trump-Russia investigation.
By Sean [email protected]@vox.com
Published: Feb 27, 2018, 1:55pm EST – By Sean Illing
From that article…
———————————————————————————————————–
President Donald Trump has named Brad Parscale to be his 2020 campaign manager.
On Tuesday morning, Trump released a statement calling Parscale a “longtime digital marketing strategist for President Trump” who was “essential in bringing a disciplined technology and data-driven approach to how the 2016 campaign was run.”
Trump is not being hyperbolic here: Parscale, who was in charge of the Trump campaign’s digital operations and worked closely with Facebook, Twitter, and Google to hone the campaign’s social media presence, was a huge part of why Trump won the White House. A 2017 profile on 60 Minutes called Parscale the “secret weapon” of Trump’s social media strategy.
“I understood very early that Facebook was how Trump was going to win,” Parscale said of the campaign’s use of social media during the 2016 presidential campaign. “I think we used it better than anyone ever had in history.”
But the young tech guru who ran the Trump campaign’s digital operations from his office in San Antonio is an extremely controversial choice to run the president’s 2020 campaign — particularly given that Trump’s 2016 campaign is still being investigated for potential collusion with Russia.
That’s because Parscale is intimately tied to a company called Cambridge Analytica, a shady data analytics firm that has become a major focus of both the House Intelligence Committee’s investigation into Russian meddling in the election and special counsel Robert Mueller’s probe.
Last December, Mueller requested that Cambridge Analytica turn over internal documents as part of his investigation into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia during the 2016 election.
The thread connecting Russia, the Trump campaign, and Cambridge Analytica is Michael Flynn, Trump’s former national security adviser who was forced to resign after he reportedly lied to Vice President Mike Pence and the FBI about his phone conversations with a Russian envoy in 2016.
A series of reports last July by the Wall Street Journal’s Shane Harris, Michael Bender, and Peter Nicholas revealed that Peter Smith, a pro-Trump GOP operative, sought to acquire 30,000 deleted emails from Hillary Clinton’s private server. Two of the groups Smith reached out to had connections to Russia.
Smith told Harris that he was in regular contact with Flynn, who at the time was still working closely with Trump’s campaign. Harris also reported on intelligence assessments that outlined the efforts of Russian hackers to retrieve Clinton’s emails and pass them on to Flynn, who would then share them with the Trump campaign.
Via an August 2017 Associated Press report, we also know that Flynn was later forced to disclose “a brief advisory role with a firm related to a controversial data analysis company that aided the Trump campaign.”
That “data analysis” company was ( Brad Parscale’s company ) Cambridge Analytica.
———————————————————————————————————–
SIDENOTE: Brad Parscale himself remains one of the leading suspects with regards to who actually “gave the green light” to Wikileaks to start ‘dumping’ stolen emails just 29 minutes after Trump’s “grab ’em by the pussy” Access Hollywood tape first hit the airwaves last year.
On October 7, 2016…
At 4:03 PM – The “Access Hollywood” tape of Trump boasting about sexually harassing
women and “grabbing them by the pussy” is first released.
Just 29 minutes later…
At 4:32 PM – WikiLeaks begins posting Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta’s stolen emails.
Correction for the post above…
Donald Trump’s “grab ’em by the pussy” video did not come out in October of LAST year ( 2017 ).
It was first released to the public on October 7, 2016… BEFORE the 2016 election(s).
Followup…
Just hours ago… Facebook announced that Brad Parscale’s company ( Cambridge Analytica ) is now SUSPENDED from participating in that social media platform.
Whoops.
Pretty hard to continue to be a social media advertising troll when you are now SUSPENDED from Facebook.
Maybe Brad Parscale can go back to just paying Navy Seals to promote movies, like he did with the Yarnell Hill Fire Movie “Only The Brave”.
CBS NEWS
Article Title: Facebook suspends data firm used by Trump’s 2016 campaign
Publshed: March 17, 2018, 12:16 AM – By Caroline Linton
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cambridge-analytica-suspended-facebook-trump-campaign/
From that article…
—————————————————————————————————–
Facebook on Friday suspended consulting firm Strategic Communication Laboratories, the parent company of data analytics firm Cambridge Analytica, for violating its policies on data collection and retention. President Trump’s 2016 data guru Brad Prascale, who has been named campaign manager of the 2020 re-election bid, hired Cambridge Analytica during the campaign. Cambridge Analytica has said it was key to Mr. Trump’s victory.
Julian Assange has said Wikileaks was approached by Cambridge Analytica in 2016 about potentially working together about the release of Hillary Clinton’s ( stolen ) deleted emails. According to The Wall Street Journal, Cambridge Analytica’s CEO Alexander Nix was emailed by Trump donor Rebekah Mercer asking if they might be able to better organize the release of ( the stolen ) Hillary Clinton emails by Wikileaks.
—————————————————————————————————
**
** HEAD OF U.S. FORESTRY RESIGNS
ABC News
Article Title: U.S. Forest Service chief steps down amid sexual misconduct investigation
Published: Mar 7, 2018, 7:03 PM ET – By Stephanie Ebbs
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/forest-service-chief-steps-amid-sexual-misconduct-investigation/story?id=53594798
From the article…
——————————————————————————————————-
The chief of the country’s forestry agency has stepped down amid an investigation into allegations of sexual misconduct, the U.S. Department of Agriculture confirmed to ABC News in a statement on Wednesday night.
A PBS News investigation first reported allegations against Chief Tony Tooke related to relationships with subordinates prior to when he assumed his current role. The U.S. Forest Service confirmed last week that an independent investigator was looking into concerns about Tooke’s behavior.
U.S. Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue confirmed that he accepted Tooke’s resignation.
The Forest Service is an agency within the USDA that fights wildfires and manages federal land. The agency had more than 35,500 employees as of September 2017, according to a federal database.
The agency has a history of problems related to sexual harassment and misconduct allegations.
The House Oversight Committee held a hearing on the issue after a Huffington Post Highline report was published in 2016 and multiple class-action lawsuits have been filed against the agency over the years.
——————————————————————————————————–
Pattern recognition is a survival trait.
you still exist Woodsman—
good to see you
started think you vanished like Norb and Diane
special note to world—
Norb and Diane did not vanish
they just have the hardest time posting on IM
yet we do miss your input so maybe John Dougherty will be kind and make a new chapter ssSSoooNnnnn
That’s interesting about Donald Trump, Gary.
It’s also interesting to see how the military is doing double time right now.
I see big bus loads of troops being brought it in and tanks are on the move.
I noticed the Convoy headed California way during the night time hours.
That is unusual to see them moving in the night. What does it mean? To me it seems like ramping up for a major war effort. We weren’t able to whip their North Koreans before, and I wonder if this will turn out to be another Vietnam situation. China is backing North Korea and they’ve got plenty of bodies to supply in case North Korea runs short. Hang around as long as you can because life is going to get interesting.
Joy, nine lives but I’ve already used 6 up so I’ve got to be more careful. I’m just drinking rye whiskey mixed with apple juice for my health. The doctors ran a catheter up to my heart a couple weeks ago and couldn’t believe how clear my arteries were. Sad part of all this is it the forest service killed us by ruining our lungs with that 500,000 gallon dump on June 28 2013 and another 500,000 gal dump 2 years later. You can’t call them murderers can you? Well the population of Yarnell was reduced by over 20% in the few years after those excessive dumps of retardant. Gary Olson believes he was never affected by those retardant dumps. I think if you look closer he was affected. Young people can lose a lung and carry on. But the elders when their oxygen is compromised face tragedy. They go the way of the 20,000 plus fish that the retardant killed when dumped in a river. indeed, the resident of Yarnell during the retardant dumps had become a guinea pig for the forest service. But did the forest service list the names of the deceased after they dumped the retardant around Yarnell? Did they ever bother to investigate the situation where 20% of the population is now deceased since the retardant dumps? Do they dare look beyond the 19 wrongful deaths of the Wildland firefighters? No, reputations might be tainted. Okay before the dumps and before we hiked so many times through that s***. You took me off life support Joy so you know I was dead but if there were one good thing we could do for people would be to stop those damn dumps anywhere near a town site or a human population. Well to stop them. Because those Wild land firefighters are going to suffer in their later years.
You make a good point Sonny, I don’t even know now why I disagreed with you in the first place. How would I know what that nasty stuff does to the human body, it is chemicals? ‘Like many WF, I was painted more than a few times because we would often be at or near the head of the fire where they would be dropping, especially during the first 36 to 48 hours while the fire was being managed by Chaos and it was a rippin’ and a roarin’.
I can also tell you what would is the biggest threat to WF, it’s when that nasty stuff dries on clothes and line gear and then those things are not changed out or cleaned for days, weeks or ever. This means when it dries it would be turned into a powdered particulate form and would then be breathed continuously by the WF over time.
To make matters worse, WF wear slurry as a sign of pride in fire camp because that means you were in the shit. Nobody wanted to get hit by it because it smelled like manure and could really chafe you when it dried like around your collar, but if you did…you did.
The protocol calls for WF to lay prone out facing the drop with your hard hat on and chin strap down, but if there were trees around, I preferred to step behind one and then wait while it comes down like rain if the mix is right, the airspeed isn’t to fast and the bomber isn’t too low. There are videos of drops that have tore vehicles apart so it can hurt or kill you. Plus it can dislodge rocks and widowmakers, although I never heard of anyone being killed by a drop. But there’s a lot of things I haven’t heard of
I can tell you something else that is probably even more dangerous. And that is the powder we used to mix up big batches of jellied gasoline, especially for large scale control burns, but I It is also mixed for heli torches or vehicle mounted terra torches…I guess? We never used any breathing protection or hazmat type gloves and it kind of gets everywhere in the process.
I did have a close friend who had been a Santa Fe Hotshots for many years and had mixed a lot of that stuff up in the off season who died from kidney failure and I do know he was convinced that stuff was killing him.
This is probably the safest place in the world considering you got 80 tanks here and busloads of troops coming out going out on the military range. They could wipe out j u a r e z and no time at all.. the only problem right here is the noise of the trains going by. Been getting ready for the rain stacking stuff and burning brush around the trailer. Lots of Mesquite and I saw two African antelope those big ones close by. Anyways doing pretty good but except for this hernia which slowed me up and my breathing is gotten worse than ever. Joy, if you came here I would give you two of these lots. There are five of them all together. Then you could build your own set up like you wanted.
I just got off the roof for this trailer. I went up there and sealed all the seams. I sealed myself as well. Me and paint and such don’t go together very well. Gary tells a sad story of how little the forest service and Wild land firefighting officials are concerned about the chemicals involved with slurry drops. The chemicals added to the slurry are trade secret, therefore, only a doctor treating a patient can find out what the hidden chemicals are. I suspect if people found out there would be quite an outrage. But that outrage ought to be expressed from just knowing the major constituents of the slurry. We do know that ammonia is a major lung cell killer. The least you breathe it the better off you are. Of course if it only depletes your lungs by 50% then you can still carry on. But the ammonia that comes off of that slurry has other dangers. Ammonium phosphate and nitrate content once applied to burning embers creates a certain amount of cyanide, a very deadly chemical well known or it’s killing effects. Now what the 5 to 15% hidden chemicals are, we have no idea. I haven’t been able to uncover any of those chemicals since I am not a doctor. And I can’t find a doctor interested enough to look into it. Even if he did he wouldn’t be able legally to reveal what he found. That stinks. How can the forest service or any government agent allow chemicals to be dumped on human beings or in the proximity of human life and human habitations without the public being informed of what those chemicals are. Life and health are being disregarded when this is allowed. When joy and I mention the deaths of so many people after the enormous slurry drops that surrounded Yarnell, we are very serious. Our own health has degraded to such a degree that both of us are limited in our actions and what we do after those slurry drops. Unbeknownst to us dangers of the slurry, we hiked through that chemical pollution many times soon after we were allowed back into the area. Joy even waded in the black chemical rain runoff. But noticing so many deaths after the drops, I began to research chemistry of the slurry. What I found and because more than 20% of the population is now deceased from Yarnell since the Yarnell fires, I now know how deadly this chemical slurry pollution can be especially to those compromised in their health already. If you go around the state where the elderly retire you will not find one city where 20% of the population dies within 3 years, unless of course it is Yarnell. We cannot let this tragic ending to people’s lives go unheard. Gary tells us of the carelessness of the forest service when they d o u s e t h e i r firefighters with these chemicals, knowing the dangers I am certain, yet not informing the men of the long term effects these pollutants will have on their health. This information that I have talked about is easily found out on Google. It is common knowledge among miners of old times that to make cyanide you simply put that dry ammonium nitrate or phosphate on to burning embers. Cyanide, as dangerous as it is, is used to release gold from sulfide ores. of course there are many old miners that suffered the side effects from being around cyanide, one of them being sudden death. It’s like my dad used to retort Mercury ores. He was very careful so he never got the effects, but Mercury ingested or fumes breathed causes one to lose all his teeth, hair to fall out, and as you have heard The Madness of Hatter’s. Hatters often we’re found insane because they were using Mercury in the process of making their hats. We are well aware that when billions are involved then many health issues will be overlooked by the and greed. when we needed uranium during the Cold War, miners were told that this low-grade uranium is harmless. that has been proven to be a lie, just as the cigarette companies told us smoking didn’t contribute to cancer. John Dougherty is doing a great work exposing the mining companies that could care less about the poor person’s health. They don’t mind creating dangerous pollution that harms people. For instance, the smelter in El Paso for years put off toxic fumes containing lead. When a psychologist tested people who had grown up within three or four mile radius of the smelter, he found that intelligent quotients we’re at least 10 points lower than people raised up outside the danger radius. the lead in the smoke was determined to be the cause, and God only knows what other effects that fumes had on people’s health. we will not tolerate continued disregard for the lives of humans. we will try to continue to educate people concerning the danger of the slurry drops.
FYI…the substance we used to make our own napalm is called Aluma-Gel.
https://www.frames.gov/fedb/13000/13663.html
I am going to take a wild guess and say that is made up of some really NASTY chemicals that most likely are hazardous to the health of those who come in direct contact with it.
The alarm Bells went off! 9 people from Yarnell died during the month of January. The young Kevin Black is now down with throat cancer , and Bill is about dead as well. Hello folks, talking about a town that only had a population of 645 residents. There is something deadly wrong when a town that has already been cleaned out of 125 people now this last January loses nine more in one month and add to that two more and Dire Straits. Joy and I k n e w personally most of those people that are dead or suffering on the verge of death. It is sickening to say the least how the retardant has taken lives and health from the individuals and Yarnell. Indeed there is many more deaths than the 19 firefighters that must be accounted for due to the Yarnell fire and subsequent retardant slurry drops. Do not forget Yarnell got a double dose of slurry drops from Jumbo Jets exceeded 500000 gallons during the first dump alone. the second dump came a couple years later and you can see now how the chemical retardant dumps are a deadly solution to slowing wildfires. Joy and I are saddened because many of these people where our near friends we enjoyed company with. What will it take to break through the callousness of heart the money greedy and reputation guarding Forest people, fire leaders involved, and companies profiting from these deadly chemicals. We need to know what was in that retardant trade secret ingredients that were in the solution to the tune of 5 to 15%. What is going on because I had written the EPA about this, yet they didn’t see any reason to investigate. I think had it killed 20 javelina they would be on to it.
Joy,
You know me…I hate to criticize what others say, think, or do, but I am pretty sure that in order to starve a tumor to death, you have to starve to death the tumors host. Just sayin your plan doesn’t make much sense to me?
Oh…and one more thing. YOU are the tumors host.
Not this again Gary—
I have so much to do in a day in my complex life which is rather boring and simple but let me explain since its raining here with heavy fog— YES it does mean packing only oxygenated nutrients IN with an extracted method and starving me the host of delicious succulent savory morsels but I take each day at hand and allow the body to do its healing and yes like I said last night the first meal I would beg to place on my lips was Cafe Monarch and hashtag it away all day and night or I would even like to visit my old Culinary crew and let them make me something unique and one of a kind because I know they make things for me with heart and love…and I think that would make for a great first meal…Clear fiber M-F helps me keep regulated and the weekends I allow the body r&r from that manipulated fiber method and I take in protein yet I can tell you this—the next vlog will show HOW MUCH the tumors are vanishing and I do plan to extend it past 40 days in a manner that I will keep current regimen EXCEPT I will mash and chew cucumbers and tomatoes and basil bananas and start bringing back in my avocado staples and asparagus and garlic and peppers and all the yummy stuff I am missing…It’s my one life- I did not get what Sonny got; 9 lives. So I want to be around a long time and so I know to do that I have to make sure I love the host in a way that shows her the beauties of this here world versus just getting by and saying I made it or I survived this or that…All my life I waited thinking someone else would show me the world through rosey glasses but I gave my heart a fresh start and this year I am my own Valentine…sounds gay huh…I made me my Valentine choice…it was soooo easy I said what do I want to hear this 2018 and I said I want to hear “Will you be my Valentine’s?” and so sappy me knows that is not gonna happen in real time so I said “Self, will you be my Valentine?” and I replied “Hell yes, you amaze me”
hee hee self love baby hee hee Who else better than me…I am always there for me…when you think about I am my own life experiment and I am a work of art…messy like VanGo Picasso; hee hee…thanks for the concern but I am locked in this method because I am once and for all going to balance my mind body and soul…I deserve it…
Well okay then. I don’t think I will try it for my tumor though, the process sounds just to darn complicated. And you know…Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY!
rather be a Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY than a Lounge Lizard
Although truthfully, whenever I talk about my brain tumor, it’s just a shallow ploy for sympathy. It was discovered by accident during a routine brain scan and it has never bothered me except for random outbreaks of something very similar to Tourette’ Syndrome whenever I go into Walmart to shop. Nowhere else…just Walmart, if you don’t count the outbreaks here on this thread, which I don’t.
After watching all of this news about background security investigations though, I think I might be screwed now if I was to ever need to have my Top Secret security Clearance renewed. Maybe I should have thought that one through before starting down this road? Whoops. I went through four of them over an 18 year period, and they were always stressful because no security clearance…no job.
Oh…and one more thing. The reason I don’t count my outburst on this thread is because my anger was righteous. And if you weren’t as outraged as I was…either you weren’t paying attention or you bought into “The Big Lie” being perpetuated by the agencies and the Yavapai County FIRE Cabal Cosa Nostra.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
I’m pretty much over it now though. My rightoues anger has been replaced by resignation and acceptance. They won…again. So…
News Flash….Dateline….New York City, In case you missed it.
OK…that’s enough for me! I am throwing down the bullshit card on President Trump! Omarosa has ratted him out on “Big Brother, Celebrity Edition “and that’s enough for me because she was his wing woman originally.
Omarosa said we would all have to bow down to him when he won because it was the ultimate revenge and now she says she wouldn’t vote for him again in a million years.
And furthermore, she said, “It’s not my circus, not my monkeys, I’d like to say not my problem but I can’t say that because — like, it’s bad,” She also said, “No,” she said, “it’s going to not be OK. It’s not.” And, “I was haunted by tweets every single day, like what is he going to tweet next?” she said.
I am pretty sure this means it time to begin impeachment proceedings and have Omarosa testify against him. You pickin’ up what I’m puttin’ down? So… it. News Flash….Dateline….New York City
OK…that’s enough for me! I am throwing down the bullshit card on President Trump! Omarosa has ratted him out on “Big Brother, Celebrity Edition “and that’s enough for me because she was his wing woman originally.
Omarosa said we would all have to bow down to him when he won because it was the ultimate revenge and now she says she wouldn’t vote for him again in a million years.
And furthermore, she said, “It’s not my circus, not my monkeys, I’d like to say not my problem but I can’t say that because — like, it’s bad,” She also said, “No,” she said, “it’s going to not be OK. It’s not.” And, “I was haunted by tweets every single day, like what is he going to tweet next?” she said.
I am pretty sure this means it time to begin impeachment proceedings and have Omarosa testify against him. You pickin’ up what I’m puttin’ down? So…
Whoa now! Repeat…repeat. That training I received from the Department of Redundancy Department is really paying off!
Oh…and one more thing. Watching the daily news pertaining to the Trump Administration is kinda like watchin’ the Jerry Springer Show in the old days except thermonuclear missiles may be launched on any given day instead of chairs being thrown. So…you know…it’s a lot more exciting for me to watch.
man..another Xanax moment for Gary
poor Gary
A reality show usually means FARTHEST from reality Gary…
MUCH editing for their agenda purpose and effect to make it popular and be influential to the cookie cutter minds that watch it and build trust in those engaging like you…ie. Gary
Those like Gary who are following the trails of the deepest darkest jungles ducking when they hear a noise between the vegetation looking and watching for the poison darts and spears hurtl’ing into Gary’s direction…
OK PEOPLE… take one…scene 2…
thank you Gary
I did not say the above because you said life is not all about me and the Bill Murray insert but because Gary reality shows, I would say that the producers AREN’T concerned with the truth. That’s not high on any producer’s list of things that they’re attempting to capture. I would say that in best case scenarios, the essential truth of a scene or scenario is conveyed, and in worst case scenarios, it is completely falsified. SO just because they edited that Omarosa bit as it was done does not mean REALITY…if people edited the insert I did on my area awhile back on you then it could be taken out of context…have you seen the hashtag “HootSuite”, TweetDeck, Monitter, Trendsmap, Google Feedburner, Klout, TweetLevel, Twitalyzer after some of the stuff you put out….have you ever seen your rating???…
When I say facts another labels it biased opinions yet it is facts when it reflects this phase to my life that is ever-changing…I can tell you this Gary…there is always perceptions…we all share diverse ones here…let me ask you Gary, do you like roses? Not because in less than a week a Holiday is upon us…I would like to know if I said the word ROSES…what color? I think of Sultry Sangria Heirloom Roses or the Koko Loko…or the Smokin’ Hot…or the palest pink…https://img00.deviantart.net/f9b5/i/2013/193/f/9/thy_rarest_rose_by_marsiams-d6c14uv.jpg
but we have to ask ourselves Gary when some are on IM saying we are all on the same page here; I sit back an ponder “are we on the same book though…” or can one read…or comprehend…do you know HOW MANY years it took me to comprehend Bob Powers and the infamous RTS, Gary…Yeah, something sooooo simple…I have some areas I am okay at…but alot more areas I never even discovered yet…My husband tonight when I was talking to Aclu fella when I hung up asked me “is your life always going to be about the fires” and I replied it really has no yet even begun…
So I ask Gary that rose you are holding…are you seeing its beauty or are you focusing to the thorns…and the ooohhs and ahhhs…recently I learned to become one step closer to engaging in adult life vs. being a housewife hermit…I thought it long and hard (33 seconds) because in reality I cannot ever see me wondering if Omarosa’s edited conversation is TRUTH or NOT…but I can tell you if you believe your political rant made an impact on me…I think we all should worry about when the lights go out in Georgia…because Julie Chen took a pay cut just to get these folks on tv…
44 y.o. Omarosa Onee Manigault should only be getting “happy birthday” from me as her bday just passed as far as my comments…Trump was not her first rodeo at the White House and you should know Gary her in 1990 there as a Deputy Associate Director in the White House…she has history…she is not a dumb lady and well calculated….Central State University is a historically black university located in Wilberforce, Ohio and she got her BA…in 97′ she started Studying M.A. from Howard University and then back to her white house job yet again…I like that God led her path to Aaron Harvey Stallworth…neat God blessed man…so whatever lies ahead FOR ALL OF US I feel pretty happy I know God is there waiting….Some of us walk away with degrees from community colleges or Universities or that school of hard knocks but no matter where we come from or where we are going I know one thing I am NEVER going to take the news from Gary because what a reality person says as GOLD but maybe by some backup water perhaps (just in case you are right ;)) hee hee
When I hung out in CA, Gary and NO not with Norb or Bob but down in the areas you mention … I was playing a version of myself — a character — and with a nudge here and a shove there, it was clear what character these Hollywood folks wanted me to play and it was never ME…point is IT IS ALL FAKE…I didn’t feel it was a discredit to my true character because the situations that I was put in and the things I was asked to say were so far beyond my own reality that anyone I cared about who saw they knew ME…so I will let you have your jaw dropping rants as I insert a jaw breaker…really, OMAROSA Gary???? ugh. “oh my”
sorry for typos
Okay, forget about using Omarora to impeach President Trump. I would be lost without the daily sideshow he produces for us at this point anyway. Removing him from office sure isn’t worth a civil war. I always just shrug and remind myself, “Elections have consequences.”
Maybe next time more people vote and those who don’t want another four years of a Trump Presidency won’t do really stupid things they thought were cute like casting protest votes for candidates who can’t possibly win like those idiots Sanders and Stein?
I guess I like roses? I never thought about it before. I can’t think of a flower I don’t like since I try to be inclusive at this point in my life. And if I had to pick a color, I guess I would do like almost everyone else and pick red. And no, I don’t like thorns of any kind and I do try to avoid things that hurt me. And no, I have never seen my rating, I didn’t know we had one.
Gary-
I was on hike and I tried to post via phone-
no luck.
Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 1:22 PM
Gary, I would never want to get a water Hemlock flower or the deadly nightshade flower and I reckon I think flowers are pretty outdoors but my mom likes them indoors for oxygen based reasons as she does Pilates and smokes Vantage 100s…I don’t get this world Gary…I am just making my way through it.
I can say this RAIN is in the forecast here so I did alot of hiking this weekend to make up the miles I will miss…I am on the 5th week as of yesterday of the fast and about 5 hours were hard today because I do all this activities and yet not getting some results I would like as FAST as my head would like yet Gary maybe that is a safe good thing…anyways I plan to extend fast until my goal is reached but incorporating soon say mashed cucumbers or gentle on the GI kinda oxygenated foods…I never liked red roses…I rather for the price of those to be practical and get me an inexpensive Blue Chinese Wisteria Tree or purple Yankee Doodle lilac bush or OMG how about hydrangeas (mmmmmm)….and some day I want a specific pine tree young one…do you like trees more than you do roses? I do. If I had a choice between a thorny rose bush I would pick a tree first…or cacti…The hardest loss I have had was my massive…mine was in the top 3 in the state of Arizona but a 100yr flood washed and killed it…SAD FACE indeed…and my other fav that just died this year was my massive saguaro and Aloe Ferox and it the feroc was 5 feet tall and so beautiful…I miss her indeed. Well enough about plants…I am trying to figure how to use a drone and SMOVE this hour than crash…I tried awhile ago to sleep then I tossed and turned and said forget it let me go answer Gary but I did at 1:22pm just never made it but I saved it in my inbox to post so there ya have it…Good night..
duh.
the one that died was an aloe dichotoma
sad face
na- na- na- na- na- (hum the McDonald’s your loving it theme song…)
the YHF is not the only place LYING …I mean I was laying there thinking how hard it is to reduce the scale # when in the day it was super simple (age and health most likely)…and I have not been near a Mcdonald’s (Sonny’s favorite place to get senior coffee 2 and 2) in almost a year…I never liked McDonald’s and I am not lying there…just was easy for Sonny to split a meal there as he was always in a rush and thankfully the visit was 1 time a month on the first..(thank you Jesus)…my father loved Burger King and I could not stand that place either for that fake smelling grilled burgers; chemicals….My mom NEVER has stepped into a fast food for food maybe to use restroom but never drinks or food; she is a sit down kinda gal in a nice high dollar spot…anyways it made me think Gary…how many are lying in this world besides some on the YHF who hiding stuff is to me the same as some layer to a LIE…how many billions has been sold at McDonald’s and yet how many millions are living? Do the math, huh…Yeah someone is lying that they do not go there to McDonald’s…”just saying”…and we all know that place is just as bad as throwing down a Hot Pocket which I never was into but my brother Bill did as a teen and Combos pretzel filled nougats; pizza flavor while my other brother was a Twinkie fan…anyways after being on this fast I thought would I ever go to a fast food place again? I rarely ate out much except the hot spotting phase and well that is dead and buried and never would do that again but I thought what place would I go to for my first meal out and I always enjoyed my old living spots eateries like HASHTAG Cafe Monarch…mmmm….I am a bit strange as they come because I have no quarrels in the day to drop $200-300 on my meal alone there…their steaks are my thing…I am blood type O so steak is my thing really…anyways my palette is not for Mickie Dees…only had shared meals because it was Sonny’s thing—if you had not ate solids for 40 days or more Gary what would your first meal be?
As a kid Gary my family would tell you I was into not only climbing trees and identifying their common name but their scientific name and I would watch the weather and how they were treated each year and at age 4 I would water them if I felt they were not getting enough naturally. I was indeed a tree dweeb for sure—I fell out of many in my day too up in Pine Arizona my family would call my name and I would be so tiny and wave all happy at all of them so high up and as they looked at me so scared and I would just think I could fly so yes I did end up in emergency rooms here and there…I will show you a pic back channel some time…indeed a tree nut…and indeed not the brightest girl on the block yet bright in other ways…
I
H E A R T
Trees.
What is Woodsman up to anyways???
retired yet
Sonny would say there is 2 kinds of trees too- the cord illegally cut in the back of his international
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gb0ax9cykwvrsav/AAC3HhPQPpMK8gqLUk1LTqCba?dl=0&preview=P1000177.JPG
or the one he had not yet chain sawed-
Gary- if he was not out loading cords of wood—the ol’ miner logger was also the most underpaid cowboy as he will tell you the Mexicans made more than he did…probably because the rancher did not care for Sonny staying in their humble abodes as Sonny took his pistol inside and shot mice of the wood rafters near the ceiling at night …but Sonny since young and even today likes old vehicles and fixing them up—
Sonny:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gb0ax9cykwvrsav/AAC3HhPQPpMK8gqLUk1LTqCba?dl=0&preview=P1000176.JPG
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Chicken noodle soup or whatever the experts recommend because your body is going to react negatively I think?
Well…you certainly know a lot about flowers. And yes, I like trees, who doesn’t like trees? Although it sounds like there are some flowers I wouldn’t like and I do know of at least one tree I don’t like that some idiot thought was a good idea to plant all along the block fence sepersting the house from the street in Paradise Valley where we lived in during my first five year sentence in the Valley Of The Sun.
Those were Russian Olive trees, because they didn’t need much water they seemed to be a favorite of desert landscapers in Land Of Mordor. I used to have to clean up around them and trim them. Talk about thorns, my arms would be streaming blood with the sweat…yes Woodsman, STREAMING blood I say.
Although that reminds me of one of my old standby stories from NAU. They have a highly respected and well known school of Forestry there and people would sometimes say to me, “Say…you work for the Forest Service, what kind of tree is that? I would always reply the same way, “I’m a Firefighter, there are only two kinds of trees, those that are on fire, and those that aren’t. That one is the kind that’s not are fire.”
Oh…and one more thing. I should have said the Trump Presidency reminds me of the Jerry Springer Show except the entire world is their stage and the cast of characters is infinite. Although I thought we had it all once Stormy Daniels was on set and we had see it all. But nope…they just keep coming.
I don’t know about you RTS…but I’m not willing to give him a mulligan on that one even though the Evengalical leaders are. I know forgiveness is a cornerstone of our common Christian Faith, but I also know sinners have to first repent and atone for their sins…right? And President Trump hasn’t even admitted what he did much less asked the Lord for forgiveness. What do you think?
Whoops, ….”that one is the kind that’s not ON fire.”
Nahhhh…I screwed that stroll down memory lane up. That was bougainvilleas the landscapers planted everywhere on that lot in PV. Those things are really nasty with thorns. Pretty…but NASTY.
I can’t remember now where I used to get hurt by Russian Olive trees? It will come to me and I will get back with uou on that one.
I posted this historical document (1977) to assist both Bob and RTS (and other US Forest Service old timers, it is in the shape of the USFS Shield) in taking a little stroll down memory lane.
I pasted one on the inside of my hardhat underneath the suspension webbing when I started as a hotshot in 1975 so I could study it during breaks. Pretty good idea huh?
I should have submitted that as an Employee Suggestion….or did everybody else think of that one too?
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
Like we discussed the other day, my favorite was always Number 10, which I also thought should have been Numba One. And technically…in support of my Minimalist Theory of Safety, if you always followed that ONE order, that was the only one you needed….right?
I mean…it kind of sums up the other 9 plus all of the other safety advisories, guidelines, suggestions, standard operating procedures, general orders, policies, directives and recommendations…right?
Oh…and one more thing. I have been watching wayyyyy to much news the past couple of days about this whole, “Memo” thing and how the FBI and the DOJ are corrupted by left wing people who let politics get in the way of them doing their jobs. And everyone who has been following this thread know I trash talked about the FBI, but that’s just because they think they know everything, but they don’t know how to go into the backcountry like those of us who have worked and lived in the backcountry our whole lives can and do. So anyway…I‘m pissed off, so it’s time for another one of my work stories because this is my only outlet to express myself and you are among my closest friends and confidants.
President Bill Clinton and Vice President Al Gore went to the Grand Canyon in 1996 to sign the Presidential Proclamation creating the almost 2 million acre Grand Staircase – Escalante National Monument, that dumb ass President Trump has now greatly reduced in size. As you can imagine, having both the President and Vice President in the same place at the same time was a really big security deal involving hundreds of security people from dozens of agencies. Most of these were variations of special operations type tactical teams because they were covering mostly outdoor areas and uniformed people because they were assigned to static posts like in stairwells or wherever. I had just been instructed to bring both casual clothing and BDUs and show up in the high school gym at Tusayan at a certain time.
I expected to be either guarding a tree or a doorway and I was good with that, it all pays the same as we used to say on the fire line. But when I checked in… they told me to go into a room off the gym and I found I had been selected to be the USDI departmental representative on the three person inter-agency React Team assigned to President Clinton’s security detail. The React Team was made up of a Senior Secret Service Special Agent, a Coconino County Sheriff’s Office Detective and me…go figure? But…I just rolled with it because you know, “Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you.” (The Cowboy in “The Big Lebowski”) I didn’t ask any questions since I learned early in my career to never ask the question I didn’t want to know the answer to which at the time was, “Why aren’t I guarding a tree or a doorway?” The inter-agency nature of that React Team was necessary because of the specific and compartmentalized nature of our nation’s laws.
The big deal was I got to be there when the President got off his plane which looked wayyyyy to big to be landing at the Tusayan airport and then I got to ride in his motorcade and hundreds of people were lining the streets waving to me as I went by; I felt very special and wanted. The only exciting thing that happened all day was some local Utah cowboys showed up with a big red, white and blue sign with a cartoon of the “Where’s Waldo” character that said, “Where’s OsWaldo?” as they were standing by their pickup truck on the motorcade route.
It was really a very clever sign and they had put a lot of work into it, but they screwed up because they had hunting rifles just like every other Utah cowboys has in their truck, which combined with the funny but implied threat against the President and Vice President of the United States backed up by high powered scoped rifles, made it turn into a very bad day for them. This was because the Secret Service guy I was with didn’t think anything about it was funny at all. And you know me, I do what I am told to do just as long as it isn’t illegal, immoral or any of those other reasons RTS is always quoting. And having those rifles in a National Park was illegal at that time and that was my area of jurisdiction on land administered on behalf of YOU PEOPLE by the USDI…my employer at the time. And I always tried my best to ride hard for the brand.
The only other exciting thing that happened as a result of that incident, is we weren’t where we were supposed to be when the President and Vice President got out of their vehicles at the historic El Tovar Lodge on the very scenic South Rim of the Grand Canyon. So we had to sprint from where we were with the cowboys on the entrance road to where the lodge was to catch up with the rest of the detail so we could be in position for the next problem, which thankfully never came. It was a good thing I wasn’t bullshitting you about not skimping on the Stairmaster because sometimes I did have to run or hike really long distances in the backcountry with a team, which was kind of like being on a fire with a hotshot crew, except we carried different tools.
So anyway…I was jogging as half speed as we ran in and out between parked cars in a huge parking lot that was packed with vehicles. And as I zigged when I should have zagged between one car in particular, a man stepped out of the front passenger side just as I ran past the rear of his vehicle. I immediately applied my brakes in an attempt to make a full stop but as you know, I weigh a lot. And forward momentum (velocity) X mass (my body weight) and E=mc2 because of the loose gravel on the asphalt meant I came very close to crushing the man who stepped out of that car because his back was up against his open car door, which wasn’t going to open any further in his favor.
Luckily for him (and me) I slid on the gravel and managed to stop just short of seriously hurting him but our noses were almost touching. Well technically…his nose was almost touching my sternum. It was another one of those weird moments in my life when my brain slowed down time by warping the space I was occupying and I saw his eyes get bigger and bigger the closer I got to him. By the time I managed to come to a complete stop…his eyes were about the size of small saucers. I was able to note one thing with interest as I was sliding towards him on the loose gravel, he had big blue eyes. The other thing I noticed as my mind once again took individual slides of what I was experiencing in slow motion with a…click…click…click, was the man with the big eyes was the actor Robert Redford who was attending the signing ceremony as a special guest of the President. The second good thing that happened that day, was they let us eat the fancy sandwiches after THOSE people were done eating lunch, because there were a lot of environmentally minded celebrities and political big shots there that day. But they had a lot of those little sandwiches and they were really good.
So…I know what you are wondering by now, IF you have made it this far. WTF does this have to do with my watching too much news today and being pissed off…right? The point of this story is this; the React Team just spent a lot of time that day just hangin’ out wherever the President was shootin’ the breeze while we waited for somebody to do something stupid. And IF they had and they had been lucky, they would have got to meet us and not one of the sniper or tactical teams. And this may surprise you, but at the time I had not yet morphed from a conservative caterpillar into a more progressive butterfly by digesting myself and converting an amorphous mess of cell soup into eyes, wings, antennae and other body parts of an adult butterfly.
And what is more…the Senior Secret Service Special Agent (who was Black or African American if you prefer) and detective (who was a standard Arizona White Guy) I was with, were also conservative law enforcement types and neither one of them liked President Clinton or Vice President Gore either. And so we spent part of the day bitchin’ about the damn liberals and you know…the damn Democrats. And while that was going on…I thought to myself, “What an amazing, wonderful and very special country I live in. Here I am hangin’ out with two guys I don’t even know and all of us feel free to complain about the politics of the people we were prepared to step in front of a bullet for without any fear…or even any concern of retaliation.” And today…I hope that very beautiful thing about our country isn’t changing?
So the bottom line is this; law enforcement is no different than FIRE. I worked for 14 years in FIRE and 20 years in law enforcement without ever knowing or even caring about of the politics or party affiliation of any person I worked except by sheer happenstance. And I never met, or ever even heard about any person who ever, at any time, for any reason, let their politics or personal opinions interfere with their job and the mission…period. And if I did find out by accident, they were almost always conservative Republicans because of the nature of those jobs and the people in those jobs.
There is ONE other thing that I witness that day that I found very interesting and humorous. Wherever the President or Vice President went, there was what they called Counter Assault Teams (CAT) very close to them. Even though I was prepared and willing to do my part and step in front of a bullet that day; not for President Clinton mind you, but for the President of the United States of America, I was pretty sure nobody was counting on me to actually save the day. And that is because I think they would loo to the CAT first.
These guys looked really bad ass crammed into armored Suburban’s with full black ninja suits, body armor, black balaclavas and ballistic helmets. And I didn’t even want to know what kind of firepower they had in those Suburban’s because I didn’t want them to have to kill me. Except at one point, and that is when they jumped out of their vehicles, stripped off their hoods and helmets and ran over to pose for a group photo on the edge of the spectacular Grand Canyon. They were laughing and joking for a few minutes and they looked like a college football team on spring break. And then the moment was suddenly over…and they looked really bad ass again.
And yes…IF you are wondering, IF I found myself in that same position today on a similar detail, I would take a bullet for President Donald Trump and you know how I feel about him. Not because he is President Trump; but because he is the President of the Untied States of America and everyone who is in the FBI, DOJ and every other serious American like most of you, would do the very same thing. So…lighten up on those agencies, they are staffed by patriotic Americans, just like you..
Oh…and one more thing. When the detail was finally over and I left the Grand Canyon National Park, nobody was lining the roadway to wave at me as I went by so I didn’t feel particularly special or wanted any longer.
And to round out my day, I did follow my old friend RTS’ advice and watch Fox News? To my surprise, anchor Shepard Smith said he thinks “The Memo” is a big “nothing burger” and anchor Neil Capitol said he didn’t know what to think?
I have taken a couple of Xanax and I have had some shots of bourbon and just as soon as the Xanax kick in…I am even going to check in with Breitbart, Mark Levin, Michelle Malkin (because she is HOT) and Alex Jones to hear and read what they think about the memo.
Neil Caputo, damn auto spell. What do you think RTS? Do you think Michelle Malkin is HOT and NASTY looking too?
Gary…did the bourbon kick in…??? We know the Xanax did.
Here is Michelle in her natural hot and nasty form RTS…please stick with Antastasia…Gary…she is a fire and I like Shell-
She reminds me of an old co-worker during college Kaja…
http://i.imgur.com/r00NtJU.jpg
Well I love freaking life. Love it.
No…they haven’t kicked in yet and this news cycle is driving me CRAZY!
I’m afraid I am going to have to paraphrase Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, Potter Stewart when he said, “I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [hard-core pornography]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that”
So…I shall not attempt to further define what makes Michelle Malkin look so NASTY, but I know it when I see it.
Although given that post and your earlier Email, I am starting to think you must be on…something?
Gary, I feel like I am on this fluffy cloud in Heaven….
I am at my 4 week part of a 40 day fast—it is life changing.
I mean serious I feel like I am “living” a book I would read….some kind of intense niacin flush that gives one a rush…
I feel like the angelic plane I have reached…
I am there.
it feels like I can feel every single beat of my heart…
the smiles that radiates my face feels so permanent…
I feel how close we are to the TRUTH to the forefront…
I feel like the part of my soul that was broken is just healing forever…
its freaking contagious this smile of mine…it is…
I was doing cartwheels and skipping down the Weavers today From Yarnell doing my 10 miles and getting texts from locals asking WHAT IS IT THAT HAS YOU CAPTIVATED?
I want that they wrote.
I move about like I am a fresh kid to life and jump up and down…it is too cool, Gary.
I said I love life…I do…I like it because noone but you Gary get it…Xanax or no xanax…you get it…Moab Baby Moab…jeep trails baby…Sonny gets you Gary…he is out jeeping right now in NM…I think he is tearing NM a new hole…as much as he gets…and he is getting around…
The GMHS shuttle bus driver had the hugest smile as I was twirling down the highway as he bussed the recent GMHS state park hikers back to Yarnell and his smile was HUGE as I was being so silly but I had just heard wonderful news…
I have bumper sticker idea Gary —- “Fire & Desire”—
I use to lay in the gray of my mind…where at time the blue haze would sting me…no longer…
Gary —you ready..get set…START
what is the first thing that comes to your mind when I say the word HEART?
For me, I think of chemicals…not beer or whiskey…I have to admit and my dad will tell you if he was still alive I am an adrenaline junkie…to get my heart racing…that is about rare…a cardiac electrophysiologist will tell you as I do their tests and they are like ???? but recently I feel the thumps … we are so close to having the data be to the surface…so close…
It is like we have all seen a 1000s winds blow…or that sun touch to the diamond glints on snow… adrenaline, epinephrine and norepinephrine; they are all pumped…do a 40 day fast, Gary…it will change you…
you will love it and may it show you areas to your life you only imagined in your head as I have had in 2018…Mother freaker Gary…I am not kidding….I am for reals…the fast will change you.
slow down (but not as much as Dr Ted Putnam)…enough to appreciate the blessings…smile and right now take in a deep breath…compliment one person today like say RTS since we both are always so hard on him here
and focus on how awesome life is and name 3 things you are grateful for RIGHT NOW…
me; what I am grateful for:
1) way close to the T R U T H being a public display for the world
2) being able to walk those 10 miles today and yesterday with a bad knee…bad groin…bad hip and one hell of a blister…but wasn’t wearing my Whites gary–shit…
3) having no fear to open up an area I feared to do and that is a miracle…and not talking about recent times of skydiving…yet that event was nuts…but when I talked to my brother and my husband about how I need them to get me and allow me this moments because really I do deserve it…I do…
was it you Sonny who said I am bad and that is good and I will never be good and that’s not bad ???
Sense of humor…taste of adventures…may you have an open confident healthy glow…life is funny…most girls I met like the bad boys and they expect the bad boy to be just good to her and then the guys want good girls but be just bad for them…strange world huh…
I will end this Gary by saying I am GLAD I have KNOWN sadness because it made for me to really appreciate pure happiness…I know what I am thinking would bother most cookie cutters especially in my own neighborhood…I do not care…have mercy on me…
I can say this much…all the funds and time put out to make this time happen soon enough…all the books and movies in the world that have been made or still gonna will be like I just wish I would of waited to call this true story
just saying…
over…you turn Gary
looking forward to see the people who were on that fire see their reactions…..I have to see if I can make that happen first….
Joy,
I am going to be completely serious right now and you need to read this. You are fuckin’ out of your mind crazy and if you were institutionalized right now they would have you strapped to a bed and on a feeding tube.
If your husband, brother and whoever else is in your real life love you they will have an intervention for you and get you some professional help and to a hospital like…right now.
And in this case, I am like our President Trump because I am like…a really smart guy who is using all the best words.
Joy,
I am going to be completely serious right now and you need to read this. You are fuckin’ out of your mind crazy and if you were institutionalized right now they would have you strapped to a bed and on a feeding tube.
———–
I read what you wrote (I do not agree)…what have I said or wrote that qualifies me such way? Because I live away from the normal way to life and hike M-F on the Weavers trying to keep gaining fire data? Or on the weekends you may see me fixing my pc or out at the shooting range or watching a movie or visiting the elders in town? Or because I allow myself to let go and let God work on my physical in the ways it needs to for healing? I cannot figure out what I did to make you feel I am crazy? Because I challenge the IC of YHF and one day it wont be a challenge just another chapter to this here journey of truths because to “know” me…is to know truth and heart…not craziness….I am respectful to self and others and fair and kind…even with my husband who I have said is my best bud and I did not enter that area normally or traditional and my husband would tell you like when Sonny use to wear his tshirts inside out (who does that)…my husband always felt if I just turned my shirts inside out to normal than I would be alright but you Gary have no idea the haunts of my earlier life that in real time I should be “crazy” for what I have seen to life but I am not—but I do believe in truth…I just do not roll in life like others…mine is all about happy energetic in the moments not programmed stuff and my brothers and my mother will tell you Gary I just have a unique style in living life…some use chemical liquids to make their day “happy” and well I am naturally just that way…so you have your perceptions and maybe others feel like you do but I do not live my life like the world—I live it like a joyful Wonder Woman using truth lassos…hee hee…I am a happy person and I follow heart in my own life…so I respect your perception but I do not agree…
————————–
If your husband, brother and whoever else is in your real life love you they will have an intervention for you and get you some professional help and to a hospital like…right now.
why? I do not get it. I reckon you never fasted for God before? I am doing good. Ask people here who have seen me…all is good…
And in this case, I am like our President Trump because I am like…a really smart guy who is using all the best words.
I am okay Gary…the only difference from 2017 to now is this fast and I have allowed God to use me and I agree there is a foreign newness but in the start of the year I had hard time getting going but now with the fast I am back to walking and the fast includes extracting oxygenated only nutrients and drinking alkaline water…I am watching Halle Barry in KIDNAP…I know what you mean about Heart Attack…I could not imagine to see my son be placed in a vehicle…intense highway scene…
Joy,
Although I am not a medical professional, or no longer a professional of any kind, I am pretty sure a 40 day fast is very unhealthy and potentially deadly. Or could simply result in permanent damage, like I don’t know…the muscle around your heart?
And even though not being a professional of any kind includes being a mental health professional, I am pretty sure anybody who is convinced a 40 day fast is a good thing to do could probably be classified as fuckin’ crazy.
BUT…I learned a long time ago that arguing with you is a complete waste of my time, even though I do have a lot of time to waste.
And in any case, I have done what I think is right and what I can do, which is to state my concern. So…you go girl!
Just don’t try to tell me even if this experiment works out for you it was a good idea. And that is because even somebody playing Russian Roulette can get lucky five clicks in a row…but the sixth one will be a real bitch (non gender specific).
And in any case, none of that means playing Russian Roulette was a good idea in the first place, even if you get a click when your turn comes. I mean…didn’t you even see “The Deer Hunter?”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OuGSXflBoWU
Oh…and one more thing. I made a career out of pushing the envelope (which I do not recommend to others by the way) you scare me and I try to be fearless.
And when the grid goes down, I am going to beg you to save me, so…
Whoops,
…BUT you scare me…
But…I’m not delusional since I know the weak link in my survival plan is the Internet won’t work when the grid goes down…so I might be screwed?
reply in bold below
Joy,
Although I am not a medical professional, or no longer a professional of any kind, I am pretty sure a 40 day fast is very unhealthy and potentially deadly. Or could simply result in permanent damage, like I don’t know…the muscle around your heart?
——–
as for the heart that is why I walk 8 to 15 miles M-F—as for protein I take that in my extract of oxygenated greens which is by essential living and organic with hemp protein AND I am properly hydrated and oxygenated every day and if I was not— that is dangerous Gary— Fasting for 40 days is a great way to transform your Spiritual and physical health. I also do it for autophagy Gary…I’ve seen that it releases atomic power in the Spiritual realm…It’s a missing piece in many Christian’s lives today…ask how many Christians do it or have done it…most say that is old testament or simply no…Down through the years, Godly people who have done Mighty Things for God have testified to the necessity of prayer with fasting.(gonna copy and paste for a sec)…It is a way to humble ourselves before God (Psalm 35:13; Ezra 8:21). It brings revelation of our spiritual condition resulting in brokenness and change. It brings personal revival through the powerful moving of the Holy Spirit in our lives. It helps us better understand the Bible by making it more vital and practical. It transforms prayer into a richer and more personal experience. the Old and the New Testaments (see Isaiah 58:5, Psalm 69:10, Matthew 23:12, I Peter 5:6, and James 4:8-10). Humility is an attitude of the heart. “A broken and a contrite heart, O God, you will not despise (Psalm 51:17) (KJV).” God will hear us and respond to our cry when we come before Him in humility and brokenness–acknowledging and repenting of our sins, and asking Him to cleanse us by the blood of Jesus and to fill us with His Holy Spirit.
Fasting is not always the easiest godly discipline to practice. For those unaccustomed to it, going without food can be a struggle. The mental and emotional battles that may break out when we fast can sometimes be unsettling. Veteran fasters say this is a sure sign of the need to abstain from food and draw close to God. (end of Donna Partrow copy/paste)
———————-
And even though not being a professional of any kind includes being a mental health professional, I am pretty sure anybody who is convinced a 40 day fast is a good thing to do could probably be classified as fuckin’ crazy.
I like to call it in tune with my mind and body and soul… you call it crazy…it’s all good
————————————–
BUT…I learned a long time ago that arguing with you is a complete waste of my time, even though I do have a lot of time to waste.
it is never a waste of my time to engage with people seeking the truth to the YHF… also I do chew slow but not swallow until well chewed basil and mint and tomatoes so my jaw has the chewing action just so you know Gary and I use clear fiber so that area never fails on me during ketosis…but my husband will agree I am stubborn or hard-headed and yet if a NY pizza sat on my lap right now I might give up but go to Walmart or the places I have to choose for as eateries…not really too many around…however recently I did have the broth only part of ThaiPho at Tara’s in Prescott so I could socialize if that helps your psyche mentality of starving myself…I am a hermit but not ever second… and El Gato Azul made a very nice posole broth so I can socialize but I did not eat the matter in it but at Thai’s I had 3 tiny mini broccolis I chewed on and oh was it delicious…so YES I am not eating solids and yes I am staying FULLY hydrated and taking supplements to support the heart and skin and muscles…I am not an idiot…well I am when it comes to certain folks in this fire dealio…I mean last August should of never happened but it did and that person was probably thinking something a norm to me and it was just one whacked out day in its entirety and well I don’t error much like that but it is what it is…but I look at silver linings from bad situations anyways…thanks for the concern but doubt I will die from this…I feel too damn happy and good…but the fear of something else in me…but that won’t work…
————————–
And in any case, I have done what I think is right and what I can do, which is to state my concern. So…you go girl!
I will go and take my sodium, potassium, calcium, phosphate, and magnesium supplements now
and when I bring foods back in I will start with 10 calories of body weight per day…Supplement with thiamine and other B vitamins 30 minutes before breaking the fast ….supplement with phosphorous, potassium, magnesium, and sodium before breaking the fast. —–
Just don’t try to tell me even if this experiment works out for you it was a good idea. And that is because even somebody playing Russian Roulette can get lucky five clicks in a row…but the sixth one will be a real bitch (non gender specific).
in a sense Gary— this is not my first rodeo when it comes to fasting silly— how do you think I can be so intuitive…
—————–
And in any case, none of that means playing Russian Roulette was a good idea in the first place, even if you get a click when your turn comes. I mean…didn’t you even see “The Deer Hunter?”
yes I did see the movie and you said Streep should play me remember…I think so too…she is a hoot… but that movie is a classic… how about this: https://youtu.be/fUJmVEB58TQ
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OuGSXflBoWU
do not be scared of me Gary
I am noone to be scared about—
shit, you are the polar bear
not me
Oh never mind. I just researched forty day fasts on the Internet and it looks like there is a variety of opinions and I’m pretty sure something has to be true before it can be put on the Internet so like President Trump used to say, “Who knows, who knows?”
At l east it doesn’t look like your body will consume your heart muscle. So…if you have that much willpower I should celebrate it with you rather than be like RTS and be a party pooper. So…good luck!
Nope, I can’t even watch the Deer Hunter scene again.
gary said-if you have that much willpower I should celebrate it with you rather than be like RTS and be a party pooper. So…good luck!
it is not willpower—you want to get better or you don’t…I was not even getting around and I was unsure if it was a rut or Winter hibernation laziness or food intake so I awoke and said reboot it all….and simple as that…why is it we always together pull RTS into our discussions…he is probably fast asleep…remember he is the normal one in this crowd not us…we stay up until late hours.
who is RTS to you Gary?
To me, he is the one to teach the lessons of responsibility, and lessons on associating, how to work for and with others, how to coincide viewpoints, and educate and organize others, and he has his core base and is not swayed…
and he works life through logic and facts…
he is confident.
Helps us here to explore our mental exploration sides and he gives us patience, time and effort.
He is a teacher of the fundamental natural laws.
I feel he is very independent and has a natural urge to initiate activities and is progressive by nature…
he not only has knowledge and understanding but he takes his time out and gives you the chance to absorb it at your own capability to learn the same.
His challenges if any is to understand the other peoples’ viewpoints if they are not balanced to his…
in some sense I feel RTS is responsible for you Gary and for Bob and even non industry me…to ensure we get what needs to be got…so he has a duty…I do believe in that alot.
I have found over the years him to be very generous of his time here on IM and in it he cultivates thoughtfulness by sharing his brilliant mind.
He has been original and resourceful (I know everyone now thinks I am talking about avatar wtktt but I am still on RTS)…
what I find to be stimulating is to see RTS here at IM engaging in group discussions often with Bob Powers right there with him as so many have challenged him but he never swayed..
he may say Gary I agree on this or that or I agree to disagree but overall he knows his shit…
I at times think my self-reliant independent thoughts make him flustered and the fact I dot…dot…dot…drives him mad…
I think he is about new challenges and opportunities…has a active relentless nature…I can see me doing menial tasks not RTS.
I can see him formulating new, more effective ways of doing things. Like my father, I feel if someone was to cause ill intent he would show caustic, irritable expressions but otherwise he really aims to educate not just himself but others…he is the right person to be in the area he is no matter what I heard months ago—“do not believe everything” others try to create— setups in life happen…I have seen it myself.
I strongly believe something going on in his life will flourish in 2019. so to sum one word CEMENT…he is the cement to your industry.
it is budding time for RTS
——————
Now let me cover you Gary
Now Gary— you know before I talk about you I will talk trash on me first—k…even the score up— I have a generous love for humanity and strong desire to be helpful to another. There is many depths that make me ME. I need to learn to develop emotion education (poor there; very unseasoned there) as well as giving more time to develop my intellect because as I know its there I sometimes am not mindful to try…I love being around philosophical older generation intellects vs fun party young folks…I have a deep appreciation for the outdoors and the beauties of nature. I have qualities of ingenuity and originality. My inborn independence and freedom side to me would be a versatile asset to someone needing every 10 days nurturing…and I am very pleased my plane is currently all about SELF expressing vs doing for another…like RTS should feel if he does not… I feel a duty and responsibility to this world to seek truth and ensure it come out…I am a very matter-of-fact person and I accept and get life as each day unfolds…I tend to disregard advice given to me and have no clue why I always been that way but always since a tot…so like I said earlier RTS does not like menial areas from my way of looking I do so I am the germinator ;)…so I am the one to take the time for the tedious stuff most would never ever…I am very sensitive worse than Gary…I am restless and can be creative…and one word to sum me up is MUD…I love mud…where that fits in have no clue but I wear mud about every time I go hiking…Mud acts as a physical barrier between my skin and the sun by blocking the sun’s UV rays. When the mud eventually dries out and cracks off, it leaves behind a residue that also blocks UV rays. The sun’s UV rays are constantly on the prowl for skin to damage. The white powder found on the aspen tree trunks has an SPF of 5…I like to learn the Earth and use it…vs chemical store bought stuff so I am very ancestral like—and I have a pet peeves like leaving lights on…my family leaves lights on growing up and it always bothered me and same with brushing my teeth or showering- I turn water off when brushing or washing…am I brain-washed because that is all self-taught because noone else does it….and I just trying to be picky…oh well…NOW TO GARY—>
——————
Firstly, I think Craig is a kick ass guy and I am sorry…same with the lioness loss…and wishing your family at least one “gets” all you are and have done….you are a polar bear I know that much…Gary, you have a natural gift of self expression…which was to be developed to educate others…you are born to uplift and are for the betterment of humanity…you are to impart the heavy facts people cannot handle may it be philosophical or just the basic truths to life…you have a heart and mind for others…you are made to co-interact and shake the mundane ways to life…you are a natural born counselor…you use the power of language to bring happiness to people’s face even if at times its a “oh my” kind of smile you give the world. Great sense of humor especially in politics…you crack me up…you live to the maxim but you also LIVE TO GIVE…you are the one who can easily earn and learn the trust to just about anyne…so who is the scary one; you. hee hee You have an obligation not a duty to the people— you cannot be around folks like me too long due to the emotional imbalance I can radiate your way—you use better judgement than me
You are free from monotony and limitations—you stretch the limits—you have some scattered efforts and one day Dr Ted Putnam may have a chapter in your book dedicated to him but hell Ted might have a book long before you and he is still on the Mann Gulch stuff…”just saying” You and RTS share the same stuff as I said to RTS would go to you as well…yet you are more of a serious thoughtful shrewd efficient business minded fella in areas RTS would not do what you do….I feel like you make the decisions in all of your life paths and not easy to sway…You and I share the same when it comes to independence and freedom and noone is gonna interfere that…you seem more like a stable settled guy that jokes about xanax and bourbon but maybe the Arizona Republic will do an article as a bourbon hound like they did old Sonny…so you get a world label like ol’ Sonny…I think you are serious in your private spots but the public display is another side…I worry about your head/sinus area; where RTS I worry about his gut areas…and I worry as you age about your eye health…
add-on or correction—
RTS if he sees harm– he is firm to correct you asap and not allow you to go at your pace— he sets you straight on SAFETY…lces…10 & 18…GROUPthink…etc
Well…you are right about one thing, Ted will have his own chapter in my book, he has already written it.
It is the story of the Battlement Creek Fire from his perspective. I’m very fortunate to have it.
My oldest daughter (who couldn’t keep Una) and my son in law have a German Short Hair Pointer. I dog sat him for a few weeks this summer when they moved and he is a really neat dog and I can tell that would be a good kind of dog to own. He is always hunting wherever he goes and whatever he does, he is always hunting. Una on the other hand was always in a moderate to high alert tactical mode.
And FYI…when Una leapt off that platform, she didn’t have any idea what was out there.
In the dark. She had never seen a raccoon before, all she knew is there were two of them and they were inside our perimeter and she was driven to protect us. For all she knew, there were two Velociraptors out there in the pitch black night.
And she still went because she believed that yea, though she walked through the Valley of the shawdow Of Death, she feared no evil because she thought she was the meanest and bravest one in the Valley.”
Which wasn’t true of course, but we all know if you have faith and believe in yourself, it will always go better than if you don’t. Una was an inspiration to me and a great watch dog. Una lived her entire life in Condition Orange and always positioned herself in a tactical position and was always looking for threats. If there were multiple entrances or approaches to wherever we were, she would choose where she could watch all of them (even if she has to expand her perimeter) at the same time and she would always place herself between me and the rest of the world.
And besides that, she didn’t have to be the baddest, all she had to do was alert me. I have the opposable thumbs and can rack the rounds and reload a bunch of different guns depending on where I am, what I am doing and what the threat level is.
I got tired of this news cycle so I started looking for GIF and memes for my website. And I found a perfect one for you, and a perfect one for me. I will post them later using my other computer.
I have learned my lesson about criticizing your fast, but I’m not sure you will be able to fast long enough to get rid of tumors or even shrink them down? I know this is a stupid question, but have you discussed your plan with a doctor who knows about tumors? Although just in case you are right, how long do you think I will have to fast to get rid of this tumor in my brain?
The following may be a repost, this tablet is a pain in the ass? But my computer sucks even worse.
Ted and I collaborated on the history of the BCF over several months a couple of years ago and he gave me a copy of his final product and permission to use it in my book. And I feel very fortunate to have his perspective on the fire. He was right there in the middle of it all. I was down at the bottom of the bowl that we burned out. I think it was many hundreds of acres? Anyway…it was big and steep.
Although for a 20 pound Yorkie mix, two bad ass raccoons are almost as bad. As you know, those things have claws like tactical fighting knives. I mean she had some deep slashes, especially on her underbelly and I didn’t have anywhere near enough money for a vet at 5he time. I just bought a bunch of tubes of antiseptic cream and changed the bandages a lot, but I couldn’t do anything about the puncture wounds but she was up to date on her shots. I did think she was a goner and on her way to Valhalla.
I didn’t have much money because my wife left me for 18 months right after I retired. So I have already had my practice run. Now…I don’t give a fuck. It’s been over forty years, but it seems like it has been much, much, much longer.
Oh…and one more thing. That basket I took a photo of Una In wasn’t her bed. That bed belonged to my youngest daughter’s Toy Fox Terrier who was a real little bitch who was always snarling and snapping at Una. But Una had quickly learned she couldn’t fight back so she retaliated by taking naps in that little bitches bed so she couldn’t use it. When Una went to sleep, she always slept in a hallway so she could guard all of the bedrooms at once, or where hallways intersected or a central area so she could watch all points of ingress or egress into the house I’m telling you, she was 20 pounds of tactical energy just waiting to explode. She also changed her position several times a night to confuse and disorient whatever may have been watching her from the shadows to confuse it. I’m telling you, that dog was scary smart. If she would have had opposable thumbs, I would have gotten her her own little gun with a laser sight and a backup tactical knife and then she would have been the biggest bad ass in the Valley Of The shadow of Death.
“Blessed is she, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for she is truly her brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And she will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy her brothers….Badass!” (Pulp Fiction)
Oh…and one more thing. Una’s favorite quote she liked me to repeat for her is, “In Your Darkest Hour When The Demons Come Call On Me Brother And We Will Fight Them Together”
Okay, enough about my fuckin’ dog, she is waiting for me in the Great Hall of my people in Valhalla. I just have to try my best to be worthy to join her.
Joy,
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
The Bill Murray one is mine. The other two are yours…obviously.
I totally get you there—
I have been a goofball lately huh
even my neighborhood pals and elders noticed—
I guess yoda is me huh
and you right I do have life all backwards and in some odd order yet I just finally fulfilled my bucket list and this Saturday will be my 5th week of the fast—
pretty cool willpower for Yoda indeed
and as for Bill Murray- that is how I feel about my foias and public records—– same pond but HUGE redundant game mess they played me
and you right
correction
YOU ARE RIGHT
How can I fix it Gary?
is it even fixable?
I guess there is a group for these kind of things huh…
Yoda Therapy. Watch this you must.
https://youtu.be/Ck067-D7KvQ
do you think I can one day be a Jedi or will I always be making my way through the dark side of life Gary….
Gary, one thing I know in this aftermath=
there is alot of lies…alot of misleads…
Yet I am human and I live from my heart not what the world expects me to do…not even anywhere near traditional…
I would like to start a tradition and change mine and Sonny’s bucket list to what one felt was a more uplifting phrase and call it a LIFE LIST…so there you have it Gary…the only bad part is on my LIFE LIST I want know list just live the unexpected and spontaneous hours…breathing in good exhaling any toxic left in me….
By the way Gary—how the heck are you doing lately—
What made you think of Yoda today? and to post it here?
I know, bored huh-
I know it was not the Xanax or bourbon…Yoda is pure
here is a bumper sticker idea for you:
https://anewkindofhuman.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/803e86052f46b83569a8942c976057b9-zen-art-yoda-quotes.jpg
I want know list just live the
STUPID PC
it changed my NO to KNOW
correction
Bored.
Thank God for the Trump White House Reality Show. It’s very entertaining, a little scary…but very entertaining.2
I said the Bill Murray meme was for ME not YOU. Not everything is all about YOU.
1.. I think Bill Murray is really funny.
2. That is how I feel most days, I don’t have some or any of my ducks in a row, but they are all in the same pond. So..;I do have that going for me.
I’m not even sure what a “meme” is?,
Ted and I collaborated on the history of the BCF over several months a couple of years ago and he gave me a copy of his final product and permission to use it in my book.
Nope…way to young for me to even admire from a distance. The furthest I will go is the young people doing “Shuffle Dance Steps” to Haddaway’s “What Is Love”, (that I posted for RTS because the girl at the beginning blew him a kiss) which is a timeless song made famous in the classic movie, “Night At the Roxbury”,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRVfysTXhNA
Here is my favorite video of dance steps…another timeless classic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IvnPB5vLDk&list=RD_IvnPB5vLDk&t=97
Whoops, the Xanax are starting to kick in…gotta go.
Okay…time for just one more. One time Una and I were camping out and two raccoons were raiding our camp in the middle of the night. I kept telling her everything was okay and we didn’t care, but before I could grab her, she jumped off the sleeping platform I had in the back of my Jeep and engaged those damn raccoons in a death match.
By the time I scrambled out of the back of the Jeep, they were all locked in mortal combat in the pitch black night. Those raccoons where shrieking like banshees straight outta hell and Una was snarling and howling to boot.
I started kicking where the screams and shrieks were coming from and eventually flew up into the air and landed on top of Una and then the raccoons were able to escape into the night.
Una was cut up pretty bad and she was a bloody mess when I picked her up. I thought I was going to lose her for a few days…but that crazy little bitch eventually pulled through. But she never stopped challenging anything and everything that got in our way and violated whatever perimeter she has set in her mind…man or beast, she was fearless and CRAZY.
classic movie, “Night At the Roxbury”,
Gary, what is truly funny about above is on the Seaside Shore in the early 90s there was guys really like that at the clubs…and I remember this guy who was training to be a FBI agent asked me to go outside get out of the noise and as we walked out my heel broke and one of those kind of guys in that flick begged for my broken heel and I said take the whole pair…they had a freak dance with those heels like in the flick that went on local tv station news…me and Rich cracked up…Rich was good friends with the girl Lisa I went with to the club (we loved to dance)…we walked the boardwalk and went out on the house boat and talked about his ex and at the time I was going to movies with his famous movie critic mom and those messed up guys who had my heels came on the boat and did that freak dance again…now I know WHY Gary I moved to a ghost town in the desert where most just keep dropping like flies around here since the fires away from those freaks….and at Bumper’s – Clifton, (part of a hotel on Rt. 3) NJ (now a Red Robin) and Bloomfield NJ you saw the Greek guys like those 2…it was hilariouuuuussss Gary. You couldn’t make that shit up…well SNL did but it was real stuff happening back then…
Thank you for the bluegrass link…I will show my mom…we use to every year have a family reunion in September in Mississippi and our family got down with the banjos and got ripping…dancing and all…I sure miss dancing…that was the only reason I went to clubs because you knew you can dance for hours on end and that was fun…Gary, do you remember Rockin Rodeo in Tempe or The Mint…Rockbar or Talking Sticks…those were great dance places in the day…Club Tribeca…or how about old school The Devil House or same place later Club Rio…what was the place my brother and I would go dance and hang out at…oh yeah Mill Ave…him and I together on the dance floor…we had people moving…anyone remember Dooley’s? (Apache Boulevard in the 70s/80s) My pops took us kids to the Yucca Tap Room…do you remember that place?
Joy, I pray this post finds you…NOT DEAD!
1. I have been on some crazy diets in my life that ultimately proved unsuccessful in the long run, but I am pretty sure you have taken it to the next, and perhaps the final step of Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY!
2. A 40 day fast? No thank you, I can think of a lot of better ways to die, or at least put my life on the line.
3. What comes to mind when you say “heart” at my stage in life? “Attack.”
4. Sonny has the right idea, I always liked the sunsets in New Mexico. I think it had something to do with the wind and red dust of the Navajo Rez between me and the setting sun. I also really liked the way the setting sun played off the snow during the Magic Hour in the Sangre de Christo Mountains above Santa Fe.
maybe I will follow him?
5. It must have been Sonny who said that, although I like it and I will start using it.
6. I did manage to find the right balance between Xanax and bourbon last night so I was able to check in with most of RTS’ echo chamber news sources last night regarding “The Memo” and it’s just as I thought…they are still Texas Road Armadillo CRAZY.
7. No…I didn’t go to any of those places. If I was goofing off in Phoenix it was with some guys from the crew…and we went to dance places, but not those kind.
8. And in case anyone is wondering. and I’m pretty sure you’re not, I never went looking for any dog much less a crazy Yorky mix who thought she wa a lioness trapped in a small dog’s body. I had to really watch out for her because although she had the heart of a lioness, she still had the jaws and teeth of a Yorky. So she was pretty good at starting fights she couldn’t finish. She was a rescue dog from my oldest daughter who couldn’t visit her apartment enough times to take care of her…and then on her way to a new home, she decided she was my dog. I had her for 13 of her 14 years. Bob told me what it would be like to lose her a long time ago…and he was right. She’s actually been gone for several months now., you know…so **** It!
Correction, I didn’t “lose her”, I followed Bob’s advice and let her go.
And yes, I like clogging. I just wish I could do it. I wrote a long time ago I liked it ever since I fought fire in North Carolina. And you know…I fought fire from an office so of course it was mandatory that we party like Salamander Huggers and Biches (non gender specific) at night.
Whoops…”BITCHES”.
MY REPLY IN BOLD
Joy, I pray this post finds you…NOT DEAD!
Oh ok Gary…I do daily urinalysis and PH tests and it is quite an interesting thing to watch different hours be so perfect and others be like hurry up like really hurry up (the storm of it)….it has its moments the 40 day fast— yet I am very much alive Gary and it is life changing and if my tumor is not dissolved at 40 day mark I am extending it either until tumor is gone and the one is 75% gone and is not a grapefruit size but the size of the old toy silly putty egg container and that gives me hope to keep at it…sometimes it takes longer than 40 days…the only time I missed emotionally eating food was last Sunday when I thought an area was closing (emotion based) and last night was my 1st day of hunger pangs…and I always say do it under medical supervision if you do it…
Sonny is near T&C areas right now…probably in the hot springs…his cousin and him have been enjoying life…I was so pleased to hear he has trailed wherever his trails took him
1. I have been on some crazy diets in my life that ultimately proved unsuccessful in the long run, but I am pretty sure you have taken it to the next, and perhaps the final step of Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY!
I wish it was a diet but it is not…it is to bring the final clearing before the truth is presented Gary…a 40 day fast should reflect as a reboot to the system…if it was for diet reasons I would of gave up already because the weight does not drain off on the fast like one would think because it is working too much on alkalizing the body and removing the tumors and t cells.
2. A 40 day fast? No thank you, I can think of a lot of better ways to die, or at least put my life on the line.
it actually helps your life if you do it proper
3. What comes to mind when you say “heart” at my stage in life? “Attack.” you and Sonny both
4. Sonny has the right idea, I always liked the sunsets in New Mexico. I think it had something to do with the wind and red dust of the Navajo Rez between me and the setting sun. I also really liked the way the setting sun played off the snow during the Magic Hour in the Sangre de Christo Mountains above Santa Fe.
maybe I will follow him? he would enjoy that…he tends to like Grants NM for nostalgia so maybe you can meet at the junkyard bar in Grants…
5. It must have been Sonny who said that, although I like it and I will start using it. it does sound like Sonny
6. I did manage to find the right balance between Xanax and bourbon last night so I was able to check in with most of RTS’ echo chamber news sources last night regarding “The Memo” and it’s just as I thought…they are still Texas Road Armadillo CRAZY. I think alot of the media is fluff and you have to answer me this Gary for the bleachers…what are you going to do when the power grid is down?
7. No…I didn’t go to any of those places. If I was goofing off in Phoenix it was with some guys from the crew…and we went to dance places, but not those kind. oh my than you probably saw my giant dad there
8. And in case anyone is wondering. and I’m pretty sure you’re not, I never went looking for any dog much less a crazy Yorky mix who thought she wa a lioness trapped in a small dog’s body. I had to really watch out for her because although she had the heart of a lioness, she still had the jaws and teeth of a Yorky. So she was pretty good at starting fights she couldn’t finish. She was a rescue dog from my oldest daughter who couldn’t visit her apartment enough times to take care of her…and then on her way to a new home, she decided she was my dog. I had her for 13 of her 14 years. Bob told me what it would be like to lose her a long time ago…and he was right. She’s actually been gone for several months now., you know…so **** It!
same here Gary- every pet here was once at Sonny’s place…I never thought I would have a tiny dog myself…I am a hunting type dog like a german pointer dog and if I ever got one it has to be a pure breed w/ papers with certain pattern like this pup:
https://gfp-2a3tnpzj.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/German-Shorthaired-Pointer-Puppies-For-Sale-600×600.jpg and some day I will get one…my grandpa had one and I always wanted one…I see me as an old lady owning one later down the road…
Oh…and one more thing. I wasn’t the only one who noticed how the red sunsets were reflected off the snow in the Sangre de Christo Mountains above the City of Holy Faith during the Magic Hour because that is why the Spanish Conquistadors named them the Blood of Christ Mountains in the first place.
And thinking about hiking for long distances in rugged and steep terrain in the backcountry with a Special Operations Team was like being with a hotshot crew on a fire except the tools we carried were different and the overall objectives were different made me think of a photo.
And you know me, when I can post one of my photos to illustrate a point…I like to do it. So I posted my favorite “hero” photo of me in the type of helicopter I had an unnatural attraction to…a Vietnam Era Bell Iroquois “Huey.” I love those helicopters and those of you who flew in them or 206’s and especially the Bell 212’s and 214″s know that familiar and distinctive sound of their rotors beating the air into submission, “Wop .wop .wop wop.”
I spent the first half of my LE career in Huey’s and the second half in Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawks, but I never fell in love with the UH-60 helicopter like I did with the Huey’s. They aren’t proportioned right…know what I mean, their tails are to damn long? I guess they have to be for aerodynamic reasons, but they are ugly?
But forgive me, I digressed. So check out the photo and you will see at my feet the very same green North Face tear drop day pack I carried for years as a hotshot that I liberated from the USFS and pressed into service on behalf of the BLM.
And to keep things equal, I posted one of my favorite “hero” photos of me with a wildfire. It was pretty hot where I was standing, but you can see the wind pushing the flames with dark smoke parallel to where we were cutting hotline.
I don’t know why young men like to take hero photos with fire (except for RTS, he isn’t full of himself), maybe it’s like counting coup and smacking your enemy with physical contact without engaging it in actual combat?
That’s why I now think all hotshot crew bosses should be women. I have never met the woman who I would recommend as First Pulaski (I’m not saying they don’t exist, I’m just saying I haven’t met her…yet), but I have met a lot of women who would make good hotshot crew bosses. Partly because you can count on them to never yell, “HEY…WATCH THIS!”
And I posted another photo of my best Jeeping buddy because I could. She (Una) was tired after a tough day of Jeeping with me in the backcountry. I mean…how cute was she? Una didn’t have any idea she was cute, she thought she was a lioness trapped in a Yorky mix’s body on steroids.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
Yes Had one in my hard hat still have the hard hat meatal with the sticker in it.
Me too, short brim Bullard. Were you a round brim Bullard or short brim man? I know RTS was a round brim Bullard man because they standardized theirs the way I remember it. I gave everyone a choice because I promoted and valued the expression of individualism whenever and wherever possible.
That sawyer we had was lucky he was a round brim Bullard man or he might have cut his throat, and it was a night shift wayyyy up in the mountains. He wasn’t medevacced until the next day because as you know our slicks weren’t flown at night.
The old Flagstaff crew boss (Mark Zumwalt, I bet RTS knew him) at about that time did cut his throat limbing a tree on project work, but he got control of it in the nick (no pun intended) of time.
I doubt they let anybody wear those old aluminum Bullard anymore because of lightning…maybe? But I bet the old timers fought hard to keep them. They were a lot lighter for one thing, but of course style and status. were the biggest reasons.
Our standard issue were the new plastic Bullards after about 1979; but guys were always watching for the metal ones at flea markets and garage sales and quite a few of them had them.
It was the short one. Had it till around 1990 when the full switch to Plastic happened. Never knew or herd of any one getting hit by lighting that wore one. We were seldom around power lines back then either..
Gary,
Nice faux pax. This statement smacks of utilizing a Participatory Leadership style.
“I gave everyone a choice because I promoted and valued the expression of individualism whenever and wherever possible.”
Ahhhhhhhh dagnabit, you caught me! Damn…you ARE smart!
Gary,
Regarding Fire Order Number 10 – Fight fire aggressively having provided for safety first. you posted: “… if you always followed that ONE order, that was the only one you needed….right?”
“I mean…it kind of sums up the other 9 plus all of the other safety advisories, guidelines, suggestions, standard operating procedures, general orders, policies, directives and recommendations…right?”
Yes it does sum up the other 9 orders, however, you have to already know those Fire Orders and apply them. So then, I agree with you in part and disagree in part, with both you and the Woodsman that we can get away with only one.
And yes of course I agree with you, all of them must be known and applied, or you will end up dead. I was just taking it to the extreme to illustrate the point that technically, if you always provide for safety first in every situation, you will have it covered. I have never disagreed or challenged the Ten, I didn’t even use the challenge or ever question the Thirteen. I only started rolling my eyes when they took those to Eighteen and now it’s way beyond that. I am just trying to say that I really think Paul Gleason was on to something.
Making # 10 #1 was for a reason to me although in reverse of the safety first being a reminder at 10. As #1 it would have set the stage for the 9 safety directions that followed.
No one that I ever knew ever believed that we could NOT fight Fire Aggressively and still provide for Safety. As Wild Land Fire Fighters we always attacked the Fire Aggressively and provided for Safety First..
Bringing this up out of the weeds as they say.
This is a VIMEO video from a contract Engine Crew on the 2012 Holloway Fire in Nevada and southern Oregon. It is subtitled: “… we saved the Granite Mt. Hotshot buggies from burning up!” by Oregon WF Colby Drake – the video was later removed from VIMEO site. and you cannot find this video clip anywhere else.
The GMHS engaged in Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes THREE TIMES on the Holloway Fire (2012) in Nevada; what they referred to as the “Nevada Fire” during their PFD ‘public record’ Squad Boss interview when the candidates were asked to give an example of ‘good leadership’ on a fire.
On two separate occasions, they posted no lookout(s) and the fire basically snuck up on them and they then had to fire out around themselves and their Buggies. They downplayed it by saying “… everything turned out alright.”
Another time on the same 2012 Holloway Fire, they were fortunate to have a contract Engine Crew save their Buggies because they parked them in the unburned and left nobody behind.
Go to (2:40-3:25), TURN OFF THE VOLUME in order to concentrate on what is occurring. Watch as the Engine Crew (one wearing a helmet cam) videos as the nozzelman squirts water on the flaming grass and sage brush, Then you see the GMHS Buggies come into view and notice the fire has jumped their road and/or dozer control line, with flames within about 20 feet of one of the Buggies.
As the nozzleman moves back to the left, concentrate on the upper left part of the screen and you will notice a handline adjacent to the black. Then begin to freeze-frame through the images and you will notice a GMHS with a black hardhat running downhill, down the handline in the upper left screen.
This is best visible when the nozzleman’s hardhat aligns with the handline in the upper left of the screen.
http://vimeo.com/48411010
The FIRST time someone else ‘saved’ the GMHS Buggies was on the 2012 Sunflower Fire (TNF) when they had parked their Buggies on the road above an unburned bowl of chapparal that was heating up. A HS Supt warned the GMHS and offered to move them, however, Marsh declined the offer.
McDonough later admitted in one of his interviews that “they took a little heat.” This was also reflected in the GMHS Crew video as they drove past flames coming up from below the road. I was unable to locate this video on YouTube any longer.
The SECOND time someone else ‘saved’ the GMHS Buggies from burning was on the 2012 Holloway Fire depicted in the VIMEO video clip above.
The THIRD time was when the BRHS ‘saved’ them on the YH Fire the morning of June 30, 2013.
In addition, the Holloway Fire was where the Zuni HS Crew filler deployed her fire shelter because she was getting overrun by the fire when she got separated from her Crew. The Holloway Fire SAIR is on the Wildland Fire LLC and has been posted on IM in the past.
The similarities of fuels, weather, topography, fire behavior, and HUMAN FACTORS closely mirror what took place on the YH Fire, which includes them having to fire out around themselves because of no lookout, the contract Engine Crew ‘saving’ their Buggies, and the ZUNI HS fire shelter deployment.
The video is up and working and available.
On VIMEO?
Yes, I haven’t done anything to remove it or take it down. It has always been available. Might be a browser issue if it won’t play correctly.
I said VIMEO, not you, took it down and it cannot be found there.
firstly, great to see you Methods-
Been since September-
Hope all is well…
is this the old link?
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/#comment-472591
Wow. I didn’t know that 10 died in the last month. That area is contaminated and shouldn’t have been open for hiking. Trouble is we didn’t know all this until time elapsed. Had we known we certainly wouldn’t have like that area after the dumps.
Maybe people can start realizing how dangerous to health those retardant dumps are
The human body is very resilient. You know that looking back I have been through so many different injuries and even illness that would tax the survival-ability of just about anyone. But as time goes on our immune defenses and organs become compromised. You know from my uranium mining I have had well beyond 20 cancers removed from my body including tumors of melanoma and carcinoma period fact I’ve lost track of how many there are. Of course working Underground you breathe plenty of dust, diesel smoking a lot of those mines especially Union Carbide at the church Rock Mine, Dynamite explosion fumes also loaded with ammonia, the many heart attacks I’ve had, and yet my brain works enough to keep me going. The point is that the older we get the more compromise we are from the many things that may have happened to us and the many pollution we are exposed to
Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is but a dream, today is all I have.
Life Goes On and we have to make the best of it today. I’m not finish just yet, but sometimes I feel like I am. Take heart, there’s one thing certain, things will change.
Happy trails. I count myself more the fortunate 4 knowing you, Joy. You make me smile and laugh. I guess I’m too simple. My advice on divorce is don’t do it. and why do it. Yet you are always welcome back on the trails with me. Gary would agree, you should be raising hell with old Sonny here. I need someone to work the wood burning stove. You can chop and load wood. Bad hernia here. Dogs aren’t much good for that. You are the finest person I have ever met or will know. Nobody can know how special you are as much as me. I mean what man in the world not even your husband can say he saw you in an extreme snow blizzard in the freezing cold in my outdoor shower with freezing water. You are some kind of Eskimo. (or) in the freezing blizzard chopping up wood and stacking it up the entire day until dark as I drank my Guinness or my snow cone whiskey bowls. My dad said the french men did that kind of thing. Make the woman work while the men watched and drank beers. My dad use to call certain ladies “40” as him and his pal buy a bucket of beer when they passed 2 stories buildings the ladies would peak their head out and say .40 cents today; 80 cents tomorrow. They were prostitutes. Times sure have increased. Beer was a nickel a bucket in the Chicago area and the ladies only cost 40 today 80 cents tomorrow. what a bargain. You are really just like one of the guys in alot of ways but definitely one of a kind. May the Irish Gods keep you well, prosper, and just know we all here care about you.
Too many of them are brainwashed into believing what the big money corporations want them to believe. Get that retardant killer away from our populations. Certainly there are a few so-called Elite individuals who believe it is okay to kill off the elderly, with the exception of themselves when they are elderly. In fact the elderly are a precious commodity to this world. They are bastions of experience and knowledge to pass along to those younger folks. That is just proven by reading the post on investigative media where the older retired bosses share their knowledge and wisdom with the younger men in their profession. Gary, RTS, Bob, Rocksteady and Norb. Hope you are doing good.
Good Lord Joy that is just too damn many people to die in that short of time. You can see that both you and I have suffered from the retardant. Me more than you I think because I’m older but you have gotten some bad effects from it as well. It’s amazing how people have skirted the issue.
I think the other thing beyond the death of the 19 firemen are the deaths of over a hundred and twenty of the elderly in the Yarnell area. Seems that people turn their heads when you mentioned that the more than 500,000 gallons of retardant dumps surrounding Yarnell and even on top of some residences watch the main contributing factor to those deaths. Anyone that wants to Google the retardant will find that it emits a deadly gas. When tank cars will that ammonia gas break open whole communities have been evacuated. It is highly poisonous and a killer to the lungs which never regenerate. Most elderly people are already compromised in their lungs. Not only that, ammonium nitrate and phosphate when applied to a fire or and burning Embers produces cyanide. Of course cyanide gas was wants you to kill prisoners. And the old way to make cyanide was to apply this ammonium phosphate and nitrate 2 charcoal Embers to make cyanide. They got a different method these days but the old one work very well and the cyanide is used to release gold from sulfide ores. So you see the forest service and the powers-that-be as well as the Israeli companies that make billions of dollars out of selling you the 95% ammonium nitrate sand phosphates that are dumped on you are not about to tell you the truth of how poisonous and dangerous their concoction is. Fortunately these days the internet has educated many people who are interested to be informed of the truth. The truth is sometimes hard to find but it is there if you can wade through the lies.
Dumping of retardant should be labeled the killing of the elderly. This is Germany all over during the Third Reich. Get rid of those that have low-iq and those that are ill at physical labor and the j e w and any of those that do not accept the f u e r e r ideas and commands. You and I would have been top on the list to add to the death list. Pointing out the death of the elderly would have been against his will
retardant is killing lots of people but it’s being kept Under Wraps kind of like the truth of the 19 deaths. Yes a dirty bomb would have been safer then the retardant dumps they made. Either way Yarnell should have been evacuated for quite a long time until the effects of the retardant we’re totally washed away. It is a fine thing to draw attention to that retardant problem. Despite the obvious deaths of people in the aftermath of those retardant dumps people are looking the other way as if these deaths never happened.
You see most of those firemen do not believe that retardant is at all dangerous. It kind of reminds me of the uranium mining where they had us brainwashed that low-grade uranium was not dangerous at all. Fact of the matter is one molecule of plutonium is all that is needed to start a cancer and there’s a certain amount of plutonium amongst the pitchblende uranium radiation. Always you will find that when big money is involved, the corporations operate without conscience.
Yes it would have been wise for and the whole town to be evacuated much like an area of radiation. I think the death toll is even higher than if Yarnell had been struck by radiation. Radiation is a slow killer if you get past the original blast where as this retardant has been Swift to kill its victims.
The Irish and leprechaun green. That guy is set up for St Patrick’s Day. And Ireland it be called The Emerald i s l e. Emeralds are beautiful Stone mostly come from Brazil. An emerald stone can approach the prices of diamond and to me it’s a more beautiful g e m. I bought another one of those recorders like the one I gave you Joy. But it’s a complicated I couldn’t record like I wanted to On My Guitar so went down and bought one of those cheap type that you put a cassette in and that damn thing sounds garble so I got to take it back to Walmart. That is unlike you to hear the news of your divorce. Must be something because your animals are your world. Your husband is what did you call him “Your Rock”
I would have to calculate this as a rare moment of emotions. Is it your health? your fast? May the Irish Gods keep you well.
The comments lately on IM are more of a personal discussion among friends and cohorts and people involved in the fire industry. I can imagine couple of old ladies who follow here have probably quit posting after recent times. Wives appalled.
Those kind of discussions are fine among friends privately but I didn’t see that the content is going to benefit the promotion of finding out the truth about the death of 19 young firefighters. It is True the tragedy always brings forth some levity. You see people at funerals laughing.
All things being said the truth is hidden because of politics. Someone up top decided it would be better to hide the truth than exposed those people whose reputation would be ruined. Someone wants to make wildland firefighter bosses look clean. But there was a lot of dirty work there in killing those men. So someone’s covering their own ass as well as comrades asses. Marsh & steed carry a heavy burden when they killed those men under them. But the public was done no justice by being fed a lie and young Wildland firefighters who risked their lives daily in the land of fire fighting are shorted.*
Hope you are doing good, Wants To Know The Truth.
I speak in my phone.
So forgive the punctuation and English errors.
Some of the school teachers that watch this they’re going to grit their teeth.
Where is Ms. Lomas by the way?
Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 5:56 PM Gary is right. he gives terrible advice.
My husband thought I was joking when I brought it up like I saw it on Candid Camera episode or something. ??? I was just trying to do right…if Gary can…why not me…I am about the same time in as Gary…I liked his reason so I ran with it…it did not even reach first base on believable at Date: Jan 25, 2018 12:08 PM….what kind of skills you got to pull that off—let me know back channel…I get laughed at…Well, Sonny is right. Probably because he heard it over and over for over six years…my husband is my best buddy…it confuses many over time…but early on I married my best friend…literally…I am not looking for trouble nor wanting trouble to find me…however this week was an odd week that I had know clue how to vlog that…but I can tell you this get well Paul My brother has his brain tumors in same areas as me and he got knocked real bad with pneumonia and I am less than 24 hours from me being at my 2 weeks of fasting of a 40 days fast…nice…I have had about over 30 hours of rough moments overall I think doing good; thumbs up. One guy fasted for 385 days and he went from 400 to 180— cool! I was going to sleep but I had to email my list to hubby so since on I finally am replying and YES Sonny just recently the rancher who had that burn barrel she died in December and Monday night Bob died over here and the book store owner and our friend Kathleen died of cancer….ALL cancers…and many NEVER had anything wrong with them before YHF…the numbers keep growing and the towns keep getting smaller. It is messed up. Sonny, I have had a research team assigned awhile back on this and they did state you were on to something when your neighbor in Yarnell died. There should be a true investigation. I sure miss going to all your old mines and it is by far the most unique situation and you cannot make this shit up…who goes west of the Grand Canyon with an old miner and journey off from the cookie cutter world…remember the opal mine…you sure know your stuff…no doubt…I never met a person who tells you drop your back pack and gear and just go out with yourself and “live”…and you took Earth and grass and what else? and you made us dishes and utensils out of earth clay than you taught me where water is and you taught so many ways to properly make a campfire with nothing…you taught me I can do it with a smile and sleep under the moonlit stars with all those different wildlife…I remember those little men with guns and you said take a photo and I ran across those pics and the Vernon one too…I liked the part where you stated YOU ARE FORTUNATE TO KNOW ME…I had to hidden chuckle on that…there is not 1 person on this site I can see doing that or 6 years like you showed me…In your honor in recent times to warm my body on a cold night I did have a pretty decent glass of Tullamore Dew on my fast to keep me warm…and to settle my tummy…I am still part Eskimo but not chopping wood lately or taking freezing showers where that plane took that photo and put it up in the local hardware store DO IT BEST in Dolan Springs of me taking a shower (the skies have eyes)…if anything I really want to let you know how your brother is so remind me to do that…I am like one of the guys when you think about it…I am the longest lasting female on IM 
probably because the others came to their senses…where are you Diane? Maybe Sonny is right…maybe our side smack got her to wash her hands of IM…or maybe she is just enjoying life like Bob Powers and Norb (you still coming out Norb?) and Otis with periodic stop bys…we know Rocksteady’s hidden joy is coming to America on this site…poor Woodsman was neglected in the post…out of sight out of mind…maybe he is on to other Folklore, Legends, and Traditions of the Valley…Sorry Sonny we gave RTS a hard time and you felt that talk should be private…maybe it should of been but someone from the bleachers wanted to hypnotize the site with Anastasia…it’s all good. Due to data I know I am not on the same wave length as RTS and Gary and Sonny about the 2 leaders and just so you know that area is shifting to a commercial foia…and I hope to bring light there. It is almost like the old Appalachian superstitions that locals and readers “just believe” to believe yet facts are still pushing forward…I have to say you do have a point of the many deaths…yet my main focus is the 19 and all fallen…so I keep at it for them…have a good night…I keep saying I am going to sleep but someone emailed you were here so came to say hello…and welcome back to IM or is this a Norb kind of visit?
That’s a great offer Sonny…thanks.
what did Sonny offer, Gary?
RTS,
I was asked in an email if I can explain the infomation at this link? But I can’t because I am…dumbfounded. Can you explain it?
https://www.us-hotshots.com/user/dougfir777/
Try this one.
https://www.ushotshots.com/user/dougfir777/
Panko,
Although frankly, I feel…violated. Like someone broke into my house and slept in my bed, sat on my throne and took a big dump. WTF…Over?
http://mrgabe.com/dictionary/spanish/index.asp?startrow=650&maxrows=896
Oh…and one more thing Panko, IF it is true and you sat on my throne and took a big dump, the least you could have done was flush…you fuck.
Gary,
The US Hot Shot Association website link is messed up. I sent them an email about it.
Oh thank God…I not only felt violated, I felt like I had been raped.
RTS,
I hope you understand, what with our little “rilvary” and me being so jealous of your accomplishments in the Hotshot world.
Being the founder and crew boss of the Santa Fe Hotshots is my second biggest claim to fame in life and I didn’t want to share it with YOU.
Of course we all know my biggest claim to fame. And that is I was the youngest hotshot crew boss in his…Oh never mind.
I totally understand. It’s a Hot Shot thing My Friend
Aren’t they kinda the same thing?
This post is in response to this from you: ” not only felt violated, I felt like I had been raped.”
Maybe…but I was detailed to the Department of Redundancy Department for several months. So….it’s not my fault, you can’t blame me.
I know there has been alot fluff on here lately but this serious—-
Are any of you on IM up for making a IM Firefighter Calendar with us in it?
I will wear suspenders and boots — I am not sure about the Helmet
might mess up my hair…
We need pole shots— and we need pulaski shots— we need to do structural and wild land…cross over…speaking of cross over— maybe some other genders in the calendar… anyone game?
Than the proceeds can go to John Dougherty to OPEN a new chapter on here
Please John
I will think about doing a photo shoot while doing a pole…dance. I’m pretty sure that would be a big seller.
Gary Olson says
JANUARY 20, 2018 AT 12:37 AM
I will think about doing a photo shoot while doing a pole…dance. I’m pretty sure that would be a big seller.
MY REPLY:
can you use fire in your dance like this:
https://youtu.be/I_Brl2KWf4o
or if you scared to carry fire then the fire ring in this video may be better huh:
https://youtu.be/nncKE12Ni4s
please do not do this dance… you may attract the wrong ones…
https://youtu.be/42m4c7HHtjg
keep it simple
its a photo shoot.
Yes indeed, the Ukrainian dancer has my vote.
I am going to have to go with RTS on this one. I found the fire used by the french pole dancer to distracting and got in the way of my admiring her technique.
So…I think Anastasia Sokolova nailed it. What is up with the name Anastasia anyway? It seems like all of the women I am communicating with from that part of the world are named Anastasia? And they all say they will love me long time if I help them get their Resident Alien card, but I don’t know?
Oh…and one more thing. This thread takes forever to load on my old computer too. Maybe that Canadian mining conglomerate finally assassinated JD. I sure hope not because I need him to maintain this blog.
Of course our very own safety matter RTS picks the video with the one where the fire ring versus carrying fire…you are right RTS…safety matters so rule out the act carrying fire. Good choice RTS.
So RTS wants to do the pole dance too…is that right?
John, as my house fills up with yummy aromas and I am on my fast….that was easier than I thought…drank kale juice with ginger and as I was cooking I put silver spoon in mouth that cuts off my sense of salivating aromas smells…
The only thing sticking around here besides my boredom behaviors is I am still not yet in new chapter…
I will arrange for that shot in photo shoot so which one of you is getting that scene again with the pole dancing?
Seems RTS being tall it would be a challenge so give it to Bob Powers because never seen Polar Bears on poles except the South Pole
Well…we would definitely have to reinforce the pole AND the floor.
RTS will only do a pole dance with the beautiful Anastasia Sokolova
RTS
Your attack hose psi is not high enough to handle her; is it?
I meant as the safety officer standpoint…I think she the fire ring would require higher psi…I thought I better clarify..
Joy has been paying attention and she is a quick learner because that is a female WF joke and a borderline female hotshot joke.
And FYI…I don’t think we need to worry about his PSI blowing out any hose.
My bad…I should have just written, WF joke and Hotshot joke and left off the “female” part. It’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks, I want to be a better dog…I really do. Wuff, Wuff!
On the contrary, my attack hose PSI is goona be just fine for the beautiful Anastasia Sokolova
Aren’t you the funny one …
that comment sounds as weak as the PSI in question
RTS,
YES…I think I have my moments of jockularity…thank you.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=RDXPmBnnon0Ek¶ms=OALAAQE%253D&v=XPmBnnon0Ek
Gary,
Nice moments of jockularity. I can see why you enjoy them.
The shoes that have motion activated neon lights and the cool dance steps?
tried to correct my statement with clarification many times-pc glitch- it was for gary
Routine Housekeeping
I’m not trying to tell the whole Scott Fire experience, which was by far the worst experience I ever had by far on a fire, here on this thread, but I forgot a minor but important point I want to make.
The Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher, who I eventually replaced was named Cyndie Hogg. She could drink and party like a hotshot and frequently hung out with us. Anyway…she was married to Jeff Hogg, who RTS mentioned the other day. Give me a fuckin’ minute…I’m trying to get to the point of the story.
Anyway, Jeff was a Forester on the Santa Fe but he transferred to the Carson and so that is why Cyndie left. But before she did, she had been working in expanded dispatch down on the Coronado and for whatever reason, she was on the specially chartered jet that the Santa Fe Hotshots were being sent home on.
Of course throughout my encounter with the fire boss, line boss and division boss, I didn’t blink. This was because had I backed down in front of my crew, they never would have respected me again, but…I didn’t feel nearly as confident as my face and words in front of the crew indicated.
So anyway, half way through the flight home, Cyndie came up front where I was sitting because the crew boss always gets on everything last as he counts his crew, but the first seat is always reserved the crew boss.
So Cyndie walks up to where I was sitting, stood in front of me and said, Ray Page (Forest FMO on the Santa Fe and the man I went to see when we landed) and Dickhead (since I can’t remember his name) are old friends.
Well…of course this made me feel much worse, but everyone really liked and respected Cyndie including me, so I know she was trying to be helpful.
I managed to respond to her without missing a beat, “So what…all these guys (meaning the Fire Gods) are old friends.” Because it was one big good ole boys club.
Ray and Dickhead may have been old friends…but Ray never blinked when it came to supporting me and the Santa Fe Hotshots. And I have always been greatful for that.
Oh…and one more thing. The last time I saw Cyndie, I was a Special Agent attending a training session because FLETC West which was at the CIA Air Base at Marino, Pinal Air Park, Arizona.
Anyway…Cyndie was there working for the National Advanced Resource Technology Center, so maybe that when Jeff ended up down there. Marana was also a huge fire cache and an air tanker base.
It used to be interesting at breakfast trying to identify the wide variety of air crew uniforms and nationalities in the dining hall. It was like a meeting of the UN in flight suits and spooks.
Routine housekeeping,
Joy asked me down below who the guy in my video is with the hurt and heavily bandage foot. That is the sixth Happy Jack Hotshot who joined us in Santa Fe beginning in our second year.
I don’t remember how he hurt his foot. His name is Dale Stephenson. He left us and served for two years with the Peace Corps in Mali, which I think is a sub Saharan former French Colony.
He went on to get his PhD in science and worked for several years at the Los Alamos National Labratory and then went on to work for a large research university the last time I heard from him.
The guy laughing at him is Craig Sawtelle, who was also a Happy Jack Hotshot who went with me to start the Santa Fe Hotshots., Craig was by far one of the best hotshot sawyers and fallers I ever saw work.
I think the more interesting story is the guy with the heavily bandaged up face. We were working on the night shift, maybe on on a fire on the Modoc? So anyway…we were mopping up and he was working on a steep slide slope bucking up a large downed and burning tree.
His name was Bill Panke, and his foot slipped and his head and shoulders picked forward as his saw bar came up screaming at full throttle. Within a split secon, the bar was hitting his round brim metal Bullard and it skipped all around his hard hat beginning in the front and making a notch in his hard hat every inch or so. It was pitch black in the middle of the night when the medics called for me to come over to where they were working on him.
I have never seen that much blood before on a hotshot because every time the bar touched his hard hat brim, it cut his face, and then skipped around cutting several notches in his face and of course, we all know how much facial wounds bleed. But he was okay and the medics were able to get him medevacced that night down off the fire line to a hospital.. after that night he had a new nickname…Scarface.
I think he came pretty close to amputating his one pwn head. And I would have had to fill out a lot of paperwork, so I was glad he was okay and I only had ti fill out some paperwork.
Routine housekeeping
Captain Jesse Steed did not lead his crew down that chimney to the deaths because he was a Marine. Captain Jesse Steed led his crew down that chimney because he was a family man, who had two young children at home and a wife who did not work outside of the home who depended on both his paycheck and benefits such as health insurance for their survival.
Captain Jesse Steeds experience as both a Marine who served in a combat zone and a Wildland Firefighter, with an emphasis on Hotshot work had made him qualified for a position in the fast food industry where he would have to ask, “Do you want fries with that” if he lost his great firefighting career.
Captain Steed also had two petty, vindictive and unreasonable supervisors by the names of Willis and Marsh who had destroyed Captain Steeds predessor’s career and life for petty and vindictive resons which weren’t even violations of policy, he violated the unofficial version of how Marsh and Willis viewed themselves on their sanctimonious high horses and unprofessional domination over a petty kingdom of their own creation.
Gary,
I agree with you in part here.
I think Steed’s Marine Corps experience and training to “follow orders” did influence his decision to lead the GMHS from safety to their deaths.
Credible and significant research on this “deference to authority” has also been found to be responsible for many aircraft mishaps, fatal and other wise.
I agree with your point on vindictive leadership
Technically, that was me disagreeing with what you said downstream blaming what Steed did on his Marine Corp background just as you aleays do and then I object…but why quibble?
What is far more important is the fact that you agree with me about the petty and vindictive leadership, especially since my conclusion were reached solely based on the information presented here, whereas yours is from real world exposure…I think?
Gary,
Yes, I blame what Steed did on his Marine Corp background just as I always will. Go ahead and object, it’s not quibbling, it’s much more serious than that.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/07/24/marine-veterans-among-19-firefighters-killed.html
The Ultimate Sacrifice
“On June 30, Travis [Turbyfill] and fellow Marine Jesse led the Granite Mountain crew into the toughest fight they had ever faced with no second-guesses. They had a mission to accomplish — protect the community of Yarnell — AND JUST LIKE THEIR TIME IN THE MARINE CORPS, THEY WERE WILLING TO LAY DOWN THEIR LIVES TO ACHIEVE THAT GOAL. and just like their time in the Corps, they were willing to lay down their lives to achieve that goal.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Unfortunately, they failed to mention GMHS rookie Billy Warneke, also a Marine veteran.
And there is also the video interview with PFD Wildland Chieff Willis.
“… Every [GMHS] knew that they were gonna protect … Yarnell. And if they laid down their life, it’s JUST LIKE IN THE MARINES, THEY KNEW WHAT THEY HAD TO DO AND THERE COULDN’T BE ANY MORE HONORABLE WAY TO DIE THAN THE WAY THEY DIED.” (EMPHASIS ADDED) PFD Wildland Division BC
http://www.military.com/video/specialties-and-personnel/veterans/marine-vet-killed-fighting-wildfire/2581462564001/
Roxanne Warneke on her husband Billy being a marine and following orders:
“Warneke said she believes her husband would only have abandoned a safe ridge and hiked into danger if he was directed to do so. “Orders,” she explained. “He was a Marine who was used to taking orders.””
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2015/06/29/yarnell-hill-fire-lawsuits-settlement-press-conference/29463359/
RTS,
I remember all of that and more. The personality of the Coconino Hotshot program during the Bill Buck years was dominated by the power, presence, charisma and presence of one Marine…Bill Buck that made us into a quasi Marine force.
I used to say the US Forest Service FIRE program was more military than the military, which I think was true because at the time the military was at its lowest point in decades in terms of reputation etc., because we were at the very end of our war of choice in Vietnam.
Which reminds me of something that I learned recently ( from the Pentagon Papers) that STUNNED me. We paid for the Frech war in Indochina that caused them to try and hold on to a colony they otherwise would have let go of. And that resulted in the deaths of more than 90,000 French soldiers, followed up by the deaths of more than 58,000 American soldiers and I do t know how many allied troops. Oh…and more than 2 million Vietnamese. What were we thinking?
So yes, I get it…I really do. Jesse Steed was multi dimensional person as we all are and there isn’t a single reason why he led his crew down that chimney, but I’m afraid this is just one more area we are going to have to agree to disagree on.
Having been there and done that…I believe to my core that Steed did what he did because there were two little beings waiting for him at home who meant more to him than he would ever have believed possible prior to their arrival in his life. Steed led his crew to their deaths primarily because he was a daddy…not a Marine.
Oh…and one more thing. I don’t want to see Cory Iverson’s training records anymore. I have the answer I would have been looking for. he was a former Hotshot.
Cory wasn’t killed by poor or incomplete training, he was killed by Hotshot hubris.
I know all to well how infectious, dehabilitating, and deadly Hotshot Hubris can be,
The disease of Hotshot Hubris is more commonly known by colloquial vernacular such as a “can do spirit” or a “hung ho attitude”, but I know it by its technical and more designation.that is more specific..
Almost all WF suffer from a can do spirit and a gung ho attitude, but it takes a current or former Hotshot to take it to the next level that is the “19th Situation That Shouts Watch Out” C. G. Olson, 2018.
Hotshot Hubris is dehahilitating in the sense it dulls specific brain stimulus that I think is related to the activation of the hypothalamus.
And yes, I am a former ground pounder and grunt but I can two finger type queries into internet search engines. So…
See…Instinct for basic primordial human self preservation and survival.
Gary,
Does this statement you made: “Having been there and done that,” mean that you led your Crews down chimneys?
“Steed led his crew to their deaths primarily because he was a daddy…not a Marine.”
Really? That’s what is called a Non Sequitor because it does not follow.
If he was a “daddy” as you say, which he was, then he would have and should have known that what he was going to do was going to get him and his men killed.
RTS,
No…my having been “there and done that” was in reference to my having many things throughout my working career, almost all of which happened while I was with the BLM, that I did because I had to do in order to keep my job and not because they were the right thing to do.
You have never mentioned children that I recall, so I have no idea of whether or not you have any or not? But…I think that people who do have children, or even dependents who are truly dependent on them for their survival, often do things they would not do otherwise.
In other words, I think for single people who do not have children or other dependents, the threshold for the ole, “take this job and shove it” is much, much, much…much lower. I know it would be for me.
I think I have been an outstanding example of that ever since I turned renegade and left the rez on the run. I just go around looking for people to tell, “Fuck Off!”
I don’t have any dependents. My children are all way grown. I still help them of course, because I am me and being an ATM is a hard habit to break. But I do it because I want to, not because I have to.
Steed had to go down that chimney because he was a daddy and two little beings were waiting for him at home for their survival. Historically….men who DO NOT meet that standard, usually find themselves alone and their kids calling another man “daddy.”
And to make matters worse for Steed, and if I understand the situation correctly, his wife did not have a readily marketable skills, maybe especially in the small inbred town of Prescott.
(Editorial) FYI….for all of the Trumpers out there who want to live in their same little town they were born in and where their comfort level is, work at the same factory where their fathers and their grandfathers worked and don’t like to go to school. I understand completely and I can relate.
I have ADHD, I hated school, much less four years of college. I was vary happy and very, very, very comfortable living in Prescott. But I had to leave for a future. I was very happy and very, very, very comfortable living in Flagstaff and working out at Happy Jack. But….I went to New Mexico, which was like moving to another planet.
After Santa Fe became home, I went to Phoenix for the job….I repeat, I WENT TO PHOENIX. When I left Phoenix I went to Albuquerque, which really sucks, and then I followed the job to Farmington, NM, which I don’t even like to think about because I have PTSD from there.
And then I was asked to return to Phoenix to take a promotion….I went even though I had a really long commute to ground zero in Phoenix again, and you know….it’s like living in Mordor without the Big Eye of Sauron, the Abhorred, Gorthaur the Cruel, Thû the Necromancer, Lord of Wolves, greatest of the servants of Morgoth, dwelling in the Elvish watchtower on Tol Sirion; later name Sauron, in addition to Mt. Doom.
But even without those things there, it is still like living in Mordor but I moved there TWICE for the job for 8 years….so don’t cry to me. Get off your asses, get an education and move to where the jobs are. Tell grand pappy, grandma, mom, dad, your siblings, aunts uncles and nieces nephews, and first, second, third, fourth and fifth cousins goodby and you will write when you find work. I am ONE generation out of the mountains myself…the White Mountains around Alpine, Arizona. That is where my ancestral homeland and family are. Thank God I don’t live there.
And now I am a tumbleweed and will ever know the joy of being a potted plant.
And just for the record, I think Steed led his men down that chimney more because he was a hotshot than because he was a Marine.
But…like I already said, Captain Steed was a multi faceted and multi dimensional person just like all of us are, well…except for you maybe? Steed led his men down that chimney for lots of reasons.
And clearly Steed knew what he was going to do was an unacceptable risk and COULD get them killed, but I don’t think he KNEW it was going to get them killed.
Captain Steed thought they could make it. And his crew believed in him.
My record was 6 weeks at the Pinal Air Park 5 miles or so north of Marana in one year. And I always spent between 1 and six weeks there.
And many of you have spent a great deal of time at “Marana” yourself, (which is actually the Pinal Air Park) for advanced training and even ONE night there really sucks.
And I spent a total of about 12 months at FLETC counting police, investigator and advanced training. And I really hated going to FLETC.
Advanced training to keep up with the changes in the world is the price of living in this century.
Whoops, that was over the top hyperbole, and I never do that so…
Moving to Northern New Mexico wasn’t like moving to another planet, but it was like moving to another country. A country I grew to love…or at least like more than Prescott.
Gary,
“And just for the record, I think Steed led his men down that chimney more because he was a hotshot than because he was a Marine.”
I agree in part to this with my angle on it.
I think Steed led his men down that chimney because he was a Marine first and THEN a hotshot which he equated to being back in the Marine Corps.
And I totally agree with this post with the caveat that the GMHS under his leadership had done nearly the same thing THREE TIMES on the Holloway Fire (2012) in Nevada, that they referred to
as the Nevada Fire. .
Twice when they posted no lookout(s) and the fire basically snuck up on them and had to fire out around themselves and their Buggies.
And once on the Holloway Fire when they had to have a contract Engine Crew save their Buggies because they parked them in the unburned and left nobody behind.
VIMEO video – “… we saved the Granite Mt. Hotshot buggies from burning up!”
Colby Drake – the video was later removed from VIMEO site. and you cannot find this anywhere else.
Go to (2:40-3:25) and then freeze-frame through and you will notice a GMHS with a black hardhat running down the handline in the upper left frame.
Best visible when the nozzleman’s hardhat aligns with the handline in the upper left of the screen.
http://vimeo.com/48411010
“And clearly Steed knew what he was going to do was an unacceptable risk and COULD get them killed, but I don’t think he KNEW it was going to get them killed.”
“Captain Steed thought they could make it. And his crew believed in him.”
LOTS of Human Factors and psychology to support why this occurred, including Groupthink, Abilene Paradox, Plan Continuation, The Filter Effect, False Consensus, Pluralistic Ignorance, Normalization of Deviance, Lack of Assertiveness, Deference to Authority, Mitigating or Hinting Speech, Suspension of Belief, Habituated Action Theory , Habituated Action Theory, Social Action Theory, the Exclusive Alternatives Trap, Latent Errors, the Halo Effect, Illusion of Control, Availability Cascade, Collective Ignorance, and a whole bunch more ….
Just GTS these phrases and research yourself
Staw and Ross (1989) Understanding behavior in escalation situations. Science, 246
Human Error and Marine Safety. Dr. Anita M. Rothblum
U.S. Coast Guard Research & Development Center
http://bowles-langley.com/wp-content/files_mf/humanerrorandmarinesafety26.pdf
I remember the photo of the GMIHC crewman running down the hill because their buggies were going to get burned up.
We aren’t every far apart in what we think. This discussion is now down to some really fine points. I don’t think we are in disagreement on any of the major factors in this catastrophic disaster.
What really pisses me off…is when people try to NORMALIZE this disaster by comparing it to other disasters.
You can’t compare what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire with any other fire in US history, even other hotshot disaster fires because of the reasons I keep stating.
South Canyon doesn’t really count as a hotshot disaster fire, it was a WF disaster fire and due to the IC having his head down working rather than managing a complex fire. And that wasn’t even his (Mackey) fault in my opinion. That should fall directly on the idiot BLM policy that states the first smokejumper out of the door is the Jumper-In-Charge (JIC).
But back on point. I think we have to compare Yarnell Hill to Battlement Creek and the Loop Fires. To say that a hotshot crew from 1976 and 1966 had any real resemblance to a modern day hotshot crew is a real stretch.
We were a bunch of cowboys who rode hard for the brand and shot from the hip, but a professional crew…we were not. The professionalization and the advanced understanding of fire behavior, should have made such an incident impossible to happen.
Gary,
There is NO photo of the GMIHC crewman running down the hill because their buggies were going to get burned up.
It is only reflected in the VIMEO video clip.
My apologies, I meant to write “vidoe” when I wrote “photo”.
I do have a brain tumor you know, so how about cutting me a little slack? Most other people do since I have gotten so old, everyone just more or less ignores me while I walk around talking to myself and cussing out the world.
Well…sometimes they do call the police, but I just badge them and so they drive me home.
Gary,
Yes, we were a bunch of cowboys and many of us shot from the hip, … a professional crew, we were not.”
Hopefully, you are speaking about YOUR Crew(s) here.
“The professionalization and the advanced understanding of fire behavior, should have made such an incident impossible to happen.”
There is no way to totally prevent these wildland fire disasters and so, all we can do is lessen them.
And one more thing, I have been cutting you slack every day since the 1980 Murdock Basin Fire, so get over it. And if you’re getting old, that’s good because that means you’re still alive and better than the alternative.
So many were so ficuated to Anastasia you were blinded by the truth.Polar bears live in the Arctic, near the North Pole. Penguins live on Antarctica and the neighbouring continents, near the South Pole.
So
I
Say
This
Because
Some
Say
I
Talk
In
Circles
yet
I
Have
Over
Time
gave
Enough
Solid
Clues
What’s
Happening
and
What’s
Coming…and
there
Was
a
point
in
the
message
and
some
day
looking
back
all these
areas
that
probably
has
not
only
offended
some
Wives
amd
others.
It
will
make
sense.
Happy Anniversary RTS-
https://youtu.be/L5fo7wpe0Ek
https://www.courthousenews.com/firefighter-demands-info-on-yarnell-hill-fire-disaster/
The case is in AZ Federal District Court awaiting the Judge to rule on the Federal Government’s Motion for Summary judgement.
This is a link to a report titled: “Civil Case Processing in the Federal District Courts” by the Institute of Advancement of the American Legal System.
The AZ District Court Filing to Rulings are listed in at least Tables 11 and 14 on pages 51 and 54 respectively..
http://www.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/iaals_civil_case_processing_in_the_federal_district_courts_0.pdf
Oh…and one more thing RTS. You know I am essentially writing chapter drafts here on this thread and then I flesh them out in my book draft. The whole Scott Fire story will be much better if I can name that Scott Fire Boss.
I am sure you must know him and I’m sure you think he is a Dickhead, everybody thought this guy was a Dickhead except for his mother…and I’m pretty sure she would have had some serious doubts about him.
So…he was the Forest FMO on the Coronado in 1983. He was young, very aggressive and considered a Blue Flame up and coming guy. I know he was at least a Type II (or Class II) Fire Boss and then Incident Commander and he must have been in some overhead job like Ops on one of the Type I Fire Teams.
In fact, he probably ended up as a Type I IC and he was a big enough Dickhead he probably ended up as a Director Of Aviation & Fire Management in one of the regions. And then maybe even the WO unless somebody killed his sorry ass on his way to the top. What is his name…please? And even if you don’t know him, you know who does.
Gary,
Anything for you My Friend when it comes to exposing those types.
I will do my best. I did a brief search the other day after you posted this and didn’t come up with anything that caught my eye.
The Coronado NF, back in the day, was where the SW Region USFS always sent their ‘disciplinary promotion’ candidates to, when they f**ked up on another Forest in the Region.
Gary,
From Inquiring Minds Want to Know
FIRE MANAGER HISTORY: What HotShot Crew did they start on?
http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/imwtk-ic.htm
Steve Gallegos D-Coronado NF R3
Greg Greenhoe
Jeff Hogg — Area Commander from ’01 to ’05
Wow…anything?
I certainly do appreciate your help. Are you saying you think it could possibly one of the three listed above? If, so, Steve Gallegos doesn’t sound right, and I used to know Jeff Hogg, so…
For some reason, I thought it would be pretty easy because this guy really had the rep as a fast rising Blue Flame Type? Maybe he flamed out?
Maybe f*uckin’ with me did him in? LOL
I mean, being Forest FMO and at least a Type II IC should have made him well known?
Although now that I think about it, that was 25 years ago. Time really flies by when you’re having fun…and even when you’re not.
Gary You are right. WOW
I have always said even in my training of new FF.
Rule 10 should have been rule 1.
Fight fire aggressively but provide for SAFETY FIRST.
In 1972 I was on a Fire censing group for R5 That group was called SAFETY FIRSI.
FIRE IMPROVEMENT REGIONAL SAFETY TEAM.
All the rest of the Commandments and watch outs fall under NUMBER TEN it really says it all.
The rest are all cause and effect suppression decisions.
Make all decisions based on SAFETY.
Gee, Bob…I guess this will be a perfect place for me to stop blogging about the safety rules if you and I are finally in agreement on them, unless you are messin’ with me?
Will the REAL Bob Powers please stand up…
Man
I am shocked
Bob?
Gary maybe he is trying to make you feel better after last night’s comments
Maybe he saw your sadness and empathizes
Wow…I do not know what to say…this beats Mika in the morning huh Gary
I doubt if you can find it but I had a long discussion with Elizabeth way back I think on here maybe on my E-Mail as well.
I have said over and over That Safety First has always been my number one Commandment/Order.
Fight Fire Aggressively but provide for safety first.
Check LCES, Weather,,whats your fire doing current and expected, act decisively, Maintain Control give clear instructions insure they are understood. All 10 in a nut shell. Always check the 18 and provide for safety first.,
Mr. Bob,
Hope you are well this year. Your comment is interesting as when I started in this business 19 years ago, Fight Fire Aggressively while providing for Safety First WAS FIRST! Then ‘those who cannot help changing, adding to, and switching around stuff’, waved their magic wand and deemed it last. They just can’t help themselves. Must be grant money involved or something? Can’t wait for my DeathBag 3.0….gonna be awesome. Not!
When I started in 1961 it was #10 when I retired in 1994 it was #10 what can I say???
It was always 10 with me too? But yes, it was really Number 1, Vietnam vets used to say…Numba 1 if something was really good and Numba 10 if it sucked, and Numba 10,000 if things were really bad. Ahhhh….memories.
I am still going to publish my photos from the Ship Island Creek Fire and the Crossman Peak Fire. I know all WF like to look at them, they may not have been on those particular fires, but they were on fires that looked just like them….it’s hard to remember which was which sometimes.
Gary,
Here is but one small yet shining example of a perfect violation of rule number 1, Don’t Do Stupid Shit:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MYENvpiv1WA
Yeehaw! That’s what I’m talkin bout, right dere…
Yes…that is a really good example. Famous last words, “Sorry I got you into this mess,”
At least they had a decent size deployment site, you know…compared to an area the size of a three car garage with at least horizontal 60 foot flame lengths and 2000 or more degree temperatures with.
“How Big Is Big Enough” and “Size Does Matter.”
i have made up some WF bumper stickers for fun, I think I will add those.
“How Big Is Big Enough” and “Size Does Matter.”
I will post a photo of my current bumper sticker when I post some more photos.
Gary,
Your slogan for bumper stickers is not a good idea. It’s a great idea! Using humor to draw attention to a topic that has not received the proper study is genius!!! But don’t stop there, the concept of how big is big enough for safety zones is vitally important for keeping wf alive & nobody seems to know the answer.. So you need to make hats, t-shirts, beer holders, key chains, cell phone cases…you know, the works. Develop a marketing strategy like yeti & you’ll have enough $$ in 2 years to build all the rock-crawling buggies you could never break.
Nahhhhh, wildland firefighters need to learn that from a formal, standardized, professional and approved lesson plan taught to everyone by qualified instructors using modern techniques and updated training materials.
Now that…is a good idea.
And gee, it looked bigger from the video…but that’s what she said.
But they don’t absorb knowledge (learn) that way anymore, Gary. Today you have 3.7 sec, on average, to gain someones attention and keep it or there on to the next tweet and/or hash tag. This is our new self-absorbed populace reality. Hey look, something shiny! Distractions, diversions…
Well THE Woodsman…you did get me motivated so I made up some mock up bumper stickers regarding THE theme I would very much like to see turned into a lesson plan by the NWFCG.
I will donate my concept etc, to the NWCG for the cause if they will get off their dead asses and do the right thing for wildland firefighters and train everyone on the concept of “How Big Is Big Enough.”
So…here are my new uploads.
1. A photo of my van with the only WF bumper sticker I have brought to production. I carry a folder of them in my van and give them out to wildland firefighters who approach me at gas stations, stores or restaurants…wherever while I am on road trips.
If the NWCG never get off their dead asses and run with my idea, I will make up a bunch of “Size Does Matter’ bumper stickers if I ever get off my dead ass. And if I ever get my bumper sticker business going,I will give out a free “How Big Is Big Enough” bumper sticker with every order.
2.A neat photo of my best friend, In Memorium, Rest In Peace Best Jeeping Buddy.
3. How Big is Big Enough – Size Does Matter mock ups.
4. Miscellaneous mock ups.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
Oh…and one more thing. I have tried to think up some specific bumper stickers for other WF with limited results so far.
“Wildland Firefighters Do It With Long Hoses”
for engine crews.
“Smokejumpers Do It In Sticks” Nahhhh.
maybe
“Smokejumpers Do It On Speed Racks” Nahhhh.
maybe
“Smokejumpers Do It Both Ways” Nahhhhh
maybe
“Helislacks Do It At The Motel”
maybe
“Helislacks Do It In The Pool” Nahhhhh.
maybe
Helislacks Do It With Autorotate” Nahhhhh.
I have obviously got some more work to do in this area.
Gary
bumper sticker idea
too funny on helislack ones…
sounds like miners…
How about
“Smokejumpers Get The Job Done”
“I put out”
and have a pic of plane/slurrydrop or fire extinguisher in background
or
“only we can start fires”
wildland firefighters with flares
(instead of prevent fires)
“slacker”
boss turned away from ff
let me rest for a minute bro-
its late night and this is a hard one…
You sure have great ideas…
not me.
“50 Shades of Grey”
plumes in background
or
“Insane in the Membrane”
or
“Fueled by Fire”
or
“In case of emergency, pull hose”
or
for your sports people or for the recent New Years Eve ball drop mentions:
“I’m a FF because football baseball and basketball only require one ball”
or
“I’m Innocent”
or
lastly…
“A controlled burn is like a controlled fart…it can turn to crap in a matter of seconds”
Can I hear a A M E N brother…
good night
How about,
“Five seconds is a long count for Smokejumpers”
“Smokejumpers Do It On Facebook”
Woodsman and Gary-
shouldn’t we add a bumper sticker that says
Mushroom atomic Explosion image as the background and right across the Mushroom image—>
your state’s advice 21 on minutes and thereafter?
ugh
correction
“your state’s advice ON 21 minutes and thereafter?
Hmmmmm….I don’t follow?
you cannot follow?
first off I am female
second off you are a Leo
Lead the way Gary…
Another late night here—in cold Congress…Today is forecast to be MUCH COOLER than yesterday. not really…56 now…
You actually have a couple of good ideas there. Please keep em coming.
And that goes for everyone else, how about if we have a “help Gary come up with WF slogans for bumper stickers contest. And if you don’t want to post here, please send them to my email.
[email protected]
And FYI, this isn’t a shadow email, this is the email address I use for everything. I wanted anybody who wants to flame me for my attitude and the things I have written to be able to do so.
I don’t have much to hide from anyone now that I have been off the rez for so many years now and I don’t plan on ever going back except on my shield.
Which is just another statement loaded with fake hubris and is from what the Spartan women used to tell their men, “Come back with your shield…or on it!”
I really don’t have much hubris anymore…RTS really can have my balls since I don’t use them anymore.
If you look carefully at the flyover near the end of the video you will see the actual size of the “deployment zone” is really damn close to the size of a 3-car garage….0.41 acre my ass! Look at the co-dominant or dominant (full-size) pine in the middle of it. Definitely not the place to be. I’m just relieved that the effective use of shelters was not tarnished… would have been a shame. Don’t you know they save lives?!!? Hey, it’s a dangerous job & there’s nothing we can do about it. I’d also like to give a double thumbs up for the great job the HEQB trainer performed for their trainee on that fire, but I’m not that cold-hearted…. The hell I ain’t, WTF!!!! Look after your people, dumbass!
I’ve said it before, a DIVS is a huge responsibility. Kudos for the clear thinking. Umm, maybe get the fuck away from your truck with all the inflammable shit in it? Great googly fucking moogly.
That feels better. Proud to say 11 more years & I’m out! (1 less than last year)
That was such a good diatribe, I feel better just reading it.
I would tell you the time will drag by, but once it’s over…you will wonder how it ended so fast. So…I can give you one piece of advice that isn’t hollow.
Start getting your training plan angled towards logistics, supply, and even safety if you are still going to be in good enough shape to hump the line. I would say
comunications, but that job is too boring.
That whole AD gig is just about the greatest retirement gig I can think of, because in spite of what you think now…you will miss it once it is gone…but that what she said, LOL.
I have thought several times about hiring myself and van out to deliver lunches and equipment from fire caches, but then I usually just take a nap until the thought goes away.
I’m working on being more positive because some people think it’s better or some shit. Sounds weak but what the f.
OK, I should have said:
1. If your trainee dies…at least you won’t have to go through the hassle of signing his task book.
2. If my work truck has a lot of miles on it & I’ve run the dog piss outta of it anyway…besides, it will start costing some real $ to keep going. Good thing I burnt the fuck out of it both inside & out parking it next to a running crownfire, not only providing a heatsheild for my shelter deployment, the taxpayers will save money on maintenance buying me a new rig. Time value of money, ya know.
3. At least this IMT is no longer in the dark about whether a county rescue unit will or will not respond to a call.for assistance based on the ability to answer the highly complicated question of whether they have an actual patient in need of medical assistance. If we don’t know, they won’t go.
4. At least we got great video, & it actually WAS NOT ‘accidentally’ lost.
5. The flames were beautiful.
No, I really fucking mean it. The video footage was great quality. I thought I was watching one of those fire science behavior research motherfucking made up in the great white northern Canada Alberta or some shit like that. It looked like someone video shopped a couple of tall sacks of dumbshit into one of those fire behavior videos as a joke…but it was real! Its like i was there. Cool!!!
I agree,
“The flames are beautiful; but they kill or destroy everything they touch without anger or malice and without forgiveness or compassion.”
“Betrayed By Our Fire Gods”
I do understand however, that none wildland firefighters may have a hard time understand where THE Woodsman and I are coming from, so here is an excerpt from my much anticipated and highly acclaimed book, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods” where I try to explain the love hate relationship we have we FIRE!
“Betrayed By Our Fire Gods”
Chapter 1 – Wildland FIRE
Fire is beautiful. One of my favorite memories is sitting in front of the flagstone hearth at home watching the bright flickering flames from the fireplace, especially if the ground outside was covered with a thick blanket of white snow. I remember camping out often near clear mountain streams surrounded by some of the most beautiful forests in the world, drifting off to sleep as our campfires slowly died down to a glowing beds of red hot coals.
I can still hear the pop as embers shot out from the fire ring followed by a trail of sparks as the bright flames consumed the juniper logs. I can vividly recall the distinct aroma of burning Piñon wood and see the flaming hard oak that made the fire last longer against the crisp cold night air. Clear mountain streams, cold nights, blue mountains and towering forests of western Ponderosa pine trees are some of my fondest memories from growing up in northern Arizona.
After heating a large house for several years in a rural area outside of Santa Fe with nothing but firewood however, I am now content to occasionally sit and rock my granddaughter to sleep while being hypnotized by the bright flickering flames from a gas log fireplace.
I spent almost all of my free time scouting for wood, cutting wood, loading wood, hauling wood, splitting wood, stacking wood, carrying wood into the house, building the fires, stoking the fires, hauling out the ashes and then making sure the ashes did not set something on fire either at our house or at the county dump. Not to mention constantly worrying about the kids getting burned either by playing too close to the fireplace or by touching the cast iron wood stove, or by goofing around with the campfire while roasting marshmallows. The very first word my youngest daughter learned to speak was “hot,” and she damn well understood what it meant. I am now a big fan of central heating in my home and day trips into the back country in my Jeep rather than camping out for the night.
There is nothing however, beautiful about wildfire. The only adjectives that can be used to describe wildfires are synonymous with words like devastating or terrifying. Sometimes words like awesome can be used, but never beautiful. Wildfire is a deadly enemy that relentlessly kills and consumes all life in its path of total destruction.
Firefighters have a love/hate relationship with fire. Wildfire destroys everything it touches and must be extinguished down to the last hot spot before the hard and time consuming job of “mop up” is finished. On the other hand, fire is one of the most important and useful tools in a wildland firefighter’s arsenal. because we often fight wildfire…with fire. This is just one of the many paradoxes that exist in the world of wildland firefighting.
I specify wildland firefighters fight fire with fire, because it is unimaginable that any other kind of firefighters do. I know almost nothing about structural firemen except I hope they come quickly if my house catches on fire. In my time as a firefighter, there was no relationship between structural firefighters and wildland firefighters. And frankly, that is the way we thought it should be. Our world was centered and we knew who we were and what we did better than anyone else.
This has radically changed in the past three decades with structural firefighters receiving cross training and getting more and more involved in fighting wildfires, although to my knowledge a wildland firefighter would still be a fish out of water going into a burning building wearing a self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA). There aren’t any SCBA’s or any of the other highly advanced and technical firefighting equipment and support systems structural firemen routinely rely on to do their jobs. The closest thing wildland firefighters have to SCBA’s are handkerchiefs worn bandit style.
The locations of wildfires are too remote, the distances too great, areas of operations are too large and shifts are too long, and the physical exertion required is too great to make wearing breathing apparatus feasible or make it possible for wildland firefighters to carrying very much equipment at all. Although I know from personal experience a simple respirator can be a real advantage since I carried and sometimes used. I bought for myself after a few years on the fire line and when I began to experience serious problems from smoke inhalation and permanent damage to my larynx and vocal cords. If, and that is a big if, you are more or less working in a stationary position or in a limited area while mopping up a fire. If there is much physical exertion involved such as hiking through the smoke, much less up a mountain, breathing with a respirator is like trying to breath into a paper bag and you would soon hyperventilate and pass out.
Yep, I can testify to that, Wildland Firefighter Safety has always been Bob’s Number 1 priority…me? I am all over the map, so that’s why if I got Bob to agree with me I’m going to stop blogging on the rules now.
Speaking of being a gossipy little scamp, check out what I got in an email today. which us men are, we just like to call it “bullshitten’” or “shootin the breeze” or a “tailgate sesssion” or something else instead of gossiping.
It turns out that if Mrs, Lohman spends an inordinate amount of time around and communicating with wildland firefighters….some of them get the wrong idea. I never would have seen this coming!
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bd6LSWDFUPh/
And one more thing…my experience on the Scott Fire didn’t end when my story did the other day since we were after all, a national resource in the middle of fighting an out of state fire when things went side ways.
There was a lengthy investigation by NIFC and Region by a team that interviewed everyone who worked with us on the fire or had information regarding the incidents that led up to the showdown and the showdown itself, that took several weeks to complete with a big report that was put out in the end. I never got a Day On The Beach and my crew was never taken out of rotation or disciplined in any way.
Fuck that Fire Boss…I just wish I could remember that assholes name. He was Forest FMO on the Coronado National Forest in 1983 if anyone knows him, I would like to get his name for my memoirs.
And guess what? I was exonerated and my crew was forgiven for pelting the Division Boss (I wrote Sector Boss the other day, but it was a division boss backed up by the line boss and fire boss) with spit cups, fruit, soda cans, and half eaten sandwiches.
Note to overhead…don’t ever put a hotshot crew’s back up against the wall or you will probably find out why they are a hotshot crew…right Bob and RTS?
I know that down deep…RTS still loves me, he just finds it hard sometimes to do so.
He remembers how we picked up his slack on the Murdoch Basin Fire of 1979 in the Wasach Mountains when he and his crew were shirkers.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BdwWnO0llz5/
Ya know…I guess the Colorado Fire Camp is one of The independent training outfits that are okay, but I’m old school who thinks Wildland Firefighting training should be done by agency employees who have been trained with updated training materials using standardized and approved training techniques.
My model is the Federal Law Enforcement Ttaining Center and individual state peace officer academies like Arizona POST.
https://post.az.gov/
https://www.fletc.gov/
I mean YOU PEOPLE don’t turn the training of your professional police officers to Tom, Dick, Harry. Eric Marsh and company that he started in his living room…do you? WTF…Over?
Here’s a scary thought, the same core group who were responsible for the biggest single fuck up in wildland firefighting history, has trained thousands of wildland firefighters in their techniques at almost $1,000.00 each including my son. Am I the only one who sees a potential problem with this system?
And of course my point is this…I still want to know who trained Cory Iverson and the four who were with him. What lesson plans did they use, were they qualified instructors, and did they use approved up to date lesson plans and techniques.
But then again…I still have the very same questions for the Granite Mountain Hotshots. Please let me share something with YOU PEOPLE your training money bought you when you paid to have me trained, for years by the best.
Every time something bad happens…the first questions that should be asked is…show me where all of their training materials are kept. I want to see everything and then interview those who had been through the same training and I want to talk to every instructor, coordinator, supervisor and manager who participated or approved their training.
But first….give me their personnel files with their training plans…NOW! I will tell you what else I want when I am finished with all of that.
Yeah, as a line supervisor, if I’m in a conflict with a shot crew it’s not only time to pause & take another look at what’s going on, the problem more than likely is with me or other overhead…and I say this not as a ihc worshipping groupy but as someone with a tremendous amount of respect for them.
Man, Gary, I would really, really love to read the report on the Scott fire. That’s one of my favorite Olde Gary stories!
Well…the whole story will be in my memoirs, if I ever get them done. The trouble started when I was ordered to load my crew up in an open truck with all of our chain saws and tools to be transported from a Drop Point to the army base and I refused.
So we hiked down the road towards town until they sent a bus, which really, really, really pissed them off, but you know as well as I do that is a big violation. Everything would have been fine…right up to the head on collision.
And yes…you are correct thank you…bless you. That was the only time in 7 years as a crew boss anyone ever challenged me, so I was shocked when it happened. The discussions would always go like this,
Me…”What do you want us to do?”
Overhead…”You are the hotshot crew boss…what do you think you should do?”
Me…”Well…I think we should do blah, blah, blah.”
Overhead…”Sounds good to me…let me know if you need anything over the radio.”
And then we usually never saw them again. That’s the way it’s done…right?
And FYI…for others, the open truck wasn’t the problem, that was often done but usually there were military transport trucks that did have benches. The issue was riding with the tools and the crew in an open truck together…that was prohibited in all of the safety manuals.
In fact…I think I was so surprised the first and only time someone challenged my authority when it came to the welfare of my hotshot crew…probably all I could say was…”Oh yeah…well FUCK YOU and the horse you rode in on. And one more thing…FUCK OFF ASSHOLES!
Which of course wasn’t well received by that Blue Flame Fire Boss who was also the Forest FMO where the Scott Fire was burning. He thought he was in charge of my crew. He was in charge of me…but not my crew. That was my job.
And this is really getting down in the weeds, but I find it interesting. Since I was the one who was cross ways with the division boss, line boss and fire boss, and not my crew, they could have hit the reset button after I was relieved of my command and told I was being sent home.
In fact, that is what they tried to do when the fire boss and line boss sent the division boss onto the bus. But my confrontation had taken place in front of the crew, it was dark, but everything that was said…or yelled was certainly heard by the entire crew.
So…theoretically, all they had to do was talk to my assistant to start over, but that is where things really went sideways for them. This was because the crew was really angry by that time, so my assistant never even stepped forward to talk to them and things went really bad really fast starting with the throwing of things at the division boss and cussing out the overhead. It was about to get worse because some guys stated moving forward to engage in a physical confrontation when all three overhead got the hell out of there…fast.
Of course I could have stopped it with one word, but since I had been relieved of my command and I was still angry, I just stood there and watched it go down.
So…that is a long story to tell you how proud I was of US Forest Service FIRE, which not only included our home forest, but BIFC and Region as well when the final decisions were made once the investigation was finished and the report was finalized.
There really wasn’t any excuse for how my crew behaved, but under the circumstances…the USFS figured what my crew did…was exactly what a good hotshot crew should have done.
But that was all done informally because the report only reported on my actions and everybody just forgot about and glossed over what the crew had done.. That is just one reason I loved USFS FIRE. It’s probably not that way anymore so…
But maybe it still is…I hope?
Woodsman,
” … if I’m in a conflict with a shot crew it’s not only time to pause & take another look at what’s going on, the problem more than likely is with me or other overhead…and I say this not as a ihc worshipping groupy but as someone with a tremendous amount of respect for them.”
Yes, definitely take a tactical pause, however, you know what is the right and safe thing(s) to do, so it may n fact be their problem, and just looking to see what they can get away with.
I know you know this one — NEVER allow yourself to be intimidated by a HS Superintendent. They do that as a matter of testing Overhead to see how far they can go.
Respectfully and professionally stand up to them if they are playing that game. Because most of them think like OPS Chiefs, they already have a plan(s) in mind. Otherwise, put the onus on them to scout things out and come up with a good plan(s) with options.
And you know this one as well. Not all HS Crews and Supts. are created equal, i.e. GMHS and the deadly YH Fire debacle.
RTS,
Good advice. Thanks! That statement I made didn’t come across exactly how I wanted and I definitely hear what you’re saying & agree. Sometimes I put myself in a dream world where everything is as it should be knowing full well it’s not. Thanks for the reality check.
Woodsman,
You need to be the atypical Overhead, because they are going to expect you to be just another “qualified,,” yet inexperienced DIVS, who doesn’t really know his ass from a hole in the ground. So, of course, you want to and must prove them wrong.
As you well know, you must maintain a consistent command presence knowing when to correct them and call BS on indiscretions or slacking as soon as possible, preferably through their chain of command. Learn to perfect the ability to chew someone out and then, if appropriate, kind of smile to let them know you know their indiscretion was unacceptable and you likely have done that yourself a time or two.
For the most part, with hopefully few GMHS-type exceptions, they know and perform their jobs really well, so take full advantage of that and allow them to be part of the solution(s), with alternative options for the expected fire behavior plan(s)..
A HS Crew’s overhead are usually rife with fully qualified and experienced operational and even some aviation Overhead, e.g. TFLD, STL, FIRB, FELB, HEQM, Helislack quals, and even DIVS. If they are willing to oblige, use their Overhead and DELEGATE with authority AND responsibility, especially during firing operations and while maintaining or creating Defensible Space rather than Structure Defense.
You MUST set the example for them to follow. Remember to tell people what to do instead of what not to do. This especially includes using and wearing your PPE properly.
Read Extreme Ownership by Jokko Willink and Leif Babin and Turn Your Ship former Navy SEALS Around by retired U.S. Navy Captain L. David Marquet.
Here’s a link for a TedTalk by Jokko Willink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljqra3BcqWM
Geez…you’re no fun!
I clicked on the link you shared on the lady who lost Eric-
I think she looks amazing and she has gone through some body changes since the YHF
and well she looks like she is on top of the world “happy” …real genuine happy…healthy happy…
and probably she just is placing it public because in the link you shared it does show her with quite a few different men standing next to her but none appear to be her husband
so that may of caused some wild land firefighters to think maybe they were okay to try and see where she was at—on that area not realizing she is private and not gonna post public certain stuff probably because of this site…
or she is just naturally like that…private or
maybe they too notice like me that she looks good after all she has gone through…
some guy just wanting a part to it because I learned this week women are God’s gift to men so maybe he thought she was gifted to him…who knows… and maybe some do not know she is married
I mean you have to admit Gary—she really is doing a great job for Eric and the foundation…and I read this comment she made from link—
“ericmarshfoundationwildland Thanks! Most people are amazing! But there are those few who push too far. Most people don’t. But this guy just was pressuring me to call him, commenting on the way we look and just a bit aggressive. It happens a few times a month. Best to just make it known that I am happily married and a widow for crying out loud, and I don’t need nor am I seeking attention. And instead of an apology, the guy seemed to blame me and was super insulted that I stood up to him. Anyway, back to business as usual. The foundation is awesome and we are doing amazing things:) ”
in that comment I saw that she said she “stood up” to the fella and I ain’t no looker like her not even close to being pretty as she is nor can I ever be… poor genetics …but I also do not get a couple times a month hit on like her (never in my life) as she stated on the comment—
well if I do get hit on
it is deadly rattlesnakes (2009)
and timing is odd I recently was paid a compliment not hit on for my weight loss…been a journey…(so maybe these are just compliments from the men…and so who knows…)
lost 81 pounds so far…I did lose more but gained some back thru Holidays and lost some…so a few pounds more to go for that 100 pound loss again…
I have no clue how a women is to handle a situation like such
( I live in a ghost town and hang out with critters and caves and very old people and read Louis L’Amour books Sonny’s sis gave me and Charles Casmir Lipinski)
except in the day when I kept females on my roster I was way too shallow and had only hot girls around so I never was bothered myself…but that phase happened because I was well sought after to airbrush them to look spot on…I knew how to light and shadow the entire body to looks it best…man or woman even rugged men I airbrushed…because they like their liquor and had the richard cranium do disease they had…so I made it appear a 6 pack and toned…not their reality.
but there were alot of moments those ladies had ALOT no matter if we went to the spa or wherever and they were always just kind to them regardless the men’s tones or behaviors and so that would be my suggestion versus doing that just appreciate the fact you are getting comments…alot of women don’t.
I, myself, just be me and that is take a ice soak and do zip but if I take the time out to get ready I can and even then I don’t bother because makeup is a waste of energy… rather be out killing me a wild animal than getting comments from one…I am too rugged and reserved that way…I rather be fishing…and not for that…
HOW DO MEN EXPECT WOMEN TO REPLY WHEN THEY ARE APPROACHED LIKE SHE APPARENTLY IS—GOOD PLACE TO WRITE ON IT IS ON THIS SITE WHERE WF COME—HOW DO YOU MEN LIKE WOMEN TO BE?
Fourth day of fast almost done and today I feel it but Holiday poundage is gone…whatever bad I did is temporarily erased and I say temporary because that scale likes to fluctuate…”motherf’er”
———————
gary said-
I know that down deep…RTS still loves me, he just finds it hard sometimes to do so.
MY REPLY: yeah I think he still loves me too even though I give him hard moments, Gary especially so late at night
I ramble the most on here…that late because what else is there to do at 3am?
“boredom stop bys”
Gary said:
He remembers how we picked up his slack on the Murdoch Basin Fire of 1979 in the Wasach Mountains when he and his crew were shirkers.
MY REPLY:
how come RTS has not shown young pics of him like you and Bob and Norb…???
I remember June 1983 Gary–Firefighters battling blazes in Chiricahuas, Huachucas…near the Methodist camp, the fire was moving away from the camp… Lee Poague maybe can help you…he is almost 90 and lives by Sonny in Alamogordo NM..shit I was 11 when that fire happened…time flies…they had so many on that fire…
Small world Joy…the Scott Fire in 1983 on the Coronado National Forest was in the Chiricahua Mountains above Sierra Vista. The fire camp was being run out of Fort Huachaca when we weren’t spiked out, which was the entire time we were there until we got sent home early because where we were was a long helicopter flight to the very top of the mountain range until we got rained out, but we were supposed to go back to finish and tie off the fire lines.
Most wildland firefighters don’t have photos of the fires they go on Joy. Cameras are discouraged and most people don’t have time or access to where the fire is for lots of reasons. That is why the most of the photos I have are so unusual and special.
I had a guy on my crew for all three years I was Crew Boss on the Coconino who was a professional photographer. He was a hippie kind of guy and a very close friend of mine. He spent the off season primarily hiking to very remote places in the Grand Canyon to take photos, although he also traveled to other remote locations.
He always had photos in the Sierra Club Calender and in other publications like that and a lot of his photos were made into post cards. The last time I heard he was photographing up in Alaska in and around Glacier National Park.
He was a senior crewman who was our equipment manager. I have a few photos I took with an instmatic camera in 1974-1977. But I stopped carrying one when I became crew boss and I don’t have any photos of the Santa Fe Hotshots because he couldn’t move there with us so I lost him. That is why so many of my photos are really professional grade photos if you look at them closely.
He (Mark Jefferson) was such a hard worker and so good, he could do the work of 1.5 Hotshots and take photos. Every year at the end of the fire season, we would have an entire evening with a slideshow of all of his photos for the entire year in our dining hall and every crewman could write down the number of the photos they wanted and then in a few weeks, Mark would give each of us our photos.
He put a little on top to compensate him for the extra work, but nobody cared, and if they did, they just didn’t order any. That is why most of my photos are of my favorite subject…me. I also tried to order a wide range that showed the job of being a hotshot in general.
Of course all of my photos spent decades in photo albums with no one ever seeing them. I mean…who could ever have seen the invention of scanners, computers, the Internet, web sites and this blog. But now it is here and I have something few other WF do…photos.
I have about five hundred Jefferson photos. He took thousands every year. Can you imagine what his photo library looks like?
Everyone who is interested should watch the video I made out of most of my photos. That is one more thing I never saw coming…a video I could make with my photos with a cool soundtrack I made up from fire sounds, helicopter sounds and a pop song that is very cool.
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
I just watched my video. All of the poor quality photos are ones I took with that instamatic camera and have my name on them.
All of the professional photos were taken with a professional grade camera Mark carried. I put his name on his photos when I made the slideshow.
At the very beginning there are two guys standing in front of my Dodge Powerwagon that was parked at the Grand Canyon. Mark is the guy on the left, there are also other photos of him including on with him using spikes to limb a tree next to our barracks. We went hiking in the canyon every year while we were laid off.
I do have two photos from the Santa Fe Hotshots. One is at the end with some of the crew around the esprit de Corps sign I had made and put in front of our offices, fire cache and training room…it is a very cool sign no one could get away with today, I made up the slogan.
The other photo is of me sitting on a log at the very end of the slideshow wearing a Santa Fe Hotshot jacket because it was cold and wet on a fire on the Gifford Pinchot National Forest at Thanksgiving time. In Washington State. It had been a control burn that got away from them. You can see black charred lines on the trees around me.
The very last photo is of me standing on a hill explaining how I wanted things done to one of my squad bosses. He is on the right hand side and looks like he is standing at attention. Maybe I wasn’t a very nice guy as the crew boss?
We were very proud of our Santa Fe Hotshot logo.It is what we called “The Three Horsemen” It has a Spanish Conquistador, an Indian Brave on a war pony, and a Anglo mountain man in the middle, which of course represented the three equal and proud races that made up the Santa Fe Hotshots.
They still use a similar loge with all three, but it is just the busts, like the head and shoulders of all three which I don’t think is anywhere near as cool as our original logo, but I’m not Crew Boss anymore. So…
I still have the original artwork that was actually done by a crewman from the Laguna Pueblo named Richard Lastyona…my mind works funny. I can’t remember what I did yesterday, but I can remember Richards name?
The chick in the bikini at the beginning is my wife. But we are getting a divorce, so….I might have to redo the slideshow?
A couple of other interesting notes…if you care? The young woman sitting at the picnic table at the shop reading a training manual near the beginning of the slideshow…is Mary, the first female hotshot on the Coconino who married the squad boss from Mormon Lake Hotshots, Rus Copp.
Check out the photo of the crewmen who were sharpening some tools using a grinder inside the shop very near Mary’s photo.
Over their shoulder, is a large photo of a wildfire on the wall. If you look at it close it looks kind of strange. And that is because it is one of Mark’s photos I shrunk down and placed over what was always in that spot.
What was there, was a nude calender…and I don’t mean a nude calender with bare breasts, I mean it was a NUDE calender of all Native American women the Hopi engine and heavy equipment operators kept there.
The photo of the nude woman for that month really showed up in the original photo…so I had to cover it up. Now….given the current time, that is pretty funny, nobody even thought about back then, including the various women who were up and around the shop at different times like engine crewmembers or Fire Prevention Techs etc.
The shop and the heavy equipment operators (who were all Hopi) were run by a Hopi foreman who was about five feet tall and five feet around everybody called The General…and he gave us Hotshots hell, all of the time and he was always scowling while he cussed us out in Hopi.
And of course things have changed again with the explosion of smart phones with video cameras, so the internet is filled with WF today doing all kinds of things.
But…I don’t think you will find much from back in my day, like I said, not only were cameras discouraged, it just wasn’t something most people did…they were too busy fightin’ fire or they just didn’t care.
Joy,
You also have to keep in mind, in the old days photos didn’t have much value. Wildland firefighters knew what fires looked like, and nobody else cared. Nobody cared about my photos for decades and you could probably make the argument hardly any one cares now. You had some photos, you look at them once, and then you put them away and forget about them. Most guys on my crew back then didn’t really buy that many of Mark
,s photos for those very same reasons. I bought more than anyone else did, because I was so into being a hotshot, but most guys were on their way somewhere else and being a hotshot wasn’t their lives, things have really changed as I keep saying. Crews are so much more professional today.
And do you know what that means?
IT MEANS IT IS JUST THAT MUCH MORE SHOCKING THAT 19 GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS, ALMOST THE ENTIRE CREW EXCEPT FOR SAD SACK…WERE BURNED ALIVE IN THIS DAY AND AGE WITH THE HIGH DEGREE OF PROFESSIONALISM, EXPERIENCE, ORGANIZATION, STRUCTURE AND UNDERSTANDING OF WILDFIRE, FIRE BEHAVIOR. I AM STILL…DUMBFOUNDED AS OF TONIGHT. I STILL CANT ACCEPT WHAT HAPPENED ON THE YARNELL HILL FIRE!
FIRST OFF if that is YOU in the middle in grey shirt
I am FOREVER gonna be nice to you (mainly out of polar bear fears I have)— holy shit —you got crushing arms—and RTS even dares to use intellect next to those arms? whoah now we must reroute the set of balls lowered to RTS—how do you RTS challenge Gary…man, no way…HUGE girth….
Yeah you could pass for Jabba’s girth measurement—
YOU ARE SOLID…shit. I only seen this Moab arguement video and it was more mouth fire in that video—so yeah that was a shock…
GARY SAID:
Small world Joy…the Scott Fire in 1983 on the Coronado National Forest was in the Chiricahua Mountains above Sierra Vista. The fire camp was being run out of Fort Huachaca when we weren’t spiked out, which was the entire time we were there until we got sent home early because where we were was a long helicopter flight to the very top of the mountain range until we got rained out, but we were supposed to go back to finish and tie off the fire lines.
MY REPLY- so is this the same time fire with the Carr Peak south of Sierra Vista?….so what I learned about that fire was appx 70-80 FF were on that Chiricahua fire—and 30-40 on the Huachuca blaze…it was a 10 to 1 ratio Federal winning out on who was fighting it…Did you find the 7 aerial tankers to be helpful on that fire, Gary? What team was the one that went in by mules…or did some just look like jackasses…So you got helicoptered in…ok….Was Dr. Ted Putnam on this fire? Was this where the smokejumpers arrived for duty but due to the winds and steep terrain they did not use them? So the Huachucas were the focus huh? So who is Terry Dyess on this fire? Man all these 70’s and 80’s talk of fires reminds me of when my dad’s best friend the logger hated your industry with a passion…and also reminds me of Ben Franklin and YellowFront stores and Tom’s Tavern…and AJ Bayless/Alpha Beta/Lucky’s/Neb’s Market and fill the card up to get free milk…and my favorite Smitty’s where you can shop for food and ammo
or Legend City…Gemco…McCrory’s, TG&Y, Fedmart, Sprouse Reitz,..Woolco, Newberry’s, Wards and Yates. and I use to go crazy dancing with the employees at Ed Debevics…miss those days….
A night out consisted of family dinner at the Lunt Avenue Marble Club. Their deep fried mushrooms were great….Blakelys gas…the great drive ins where dad smashed us all in the trunk to get in…Pinnacle Peak was a spot in the late 80’s/90’s we took business clients just to get their tie cut off….my brother and I just did castles and coasters and did the rope course and roller coasters and stuff…but do you remember when Metrocenter Mall had a below-grade ice skating rink. Watching skaters from the overlook above was the best way to escape the summer heat and I met/spent time talking as a young teen to Alice Cooper and his family and never knew who he was until my cousin walked up and “freaked out” asking for his autograph and I was actually talking chill with a famous guy; no clue…good ol days…of A R I Z O N A….where my brother met Mick Jagger at circle K….Metrocenter also had a Farrell’s ice cream parlor. My pops dad subscribed to the Phoenix Gazette (afternoon newspaper) and the Arizona Republic on Sunday….You remember when the Brass Armadillo antique mall was Angel’s – a building supply warehouse similar to Home Depot…..We ate breakfast at Sambo’s or Bob’s Big Boy or Furr’s…..You drove to Central and Thomas to have strawberry pie at Big Boy’s because it was a car hop and they brought it to your car…Thrifty’s ice cream IS MY ALL TIME FAV MEMORY…You remember when houses were built with carports instead of garages. Roofs were covered with wood shakes or asphalt shingles instead of stone tiles….still all cookie cutter visions…I remember my dad and I went to Lake Pleasant and he got drunk at that white building bar and handed me a few telephone books to sit on and the keys and said drive kid as a KID and he says STOP THE CAR—he runs so fast—my dad was VERY tall and he ran killed a javalina with his bare hands and carried it back and threw it in the bed of the truck and said drive…and he was bloody as all hell and I thought how did he get blood on him with no knife or gun? He snapped the neck to the point the blood oozed out of the mouth…he took it home and he hung it up in the carport and all the neighbors were disgusted especially Lee Miller who was long term employee to Honeywell…I remember going over to see his kids and I knocked and he said to his wife do not let her in- we have to make a neighborhood point to shun that asshole Bill …because my pops took a knife and drained the javalina on the carport then he took it to be taxidermist and the man asked him for his tag and my pops said no I just saw it and got it- no tag…the man said no you have to have a tag- it’s the law and he is a giant and was like “no, I am the law”…(and he was working for Arpaio I think then so technically…) point was the days where INDIVIDUALISM was ALIVE…more than today due to fear of fines and jail time except Sonny has never ever changed and is an individual who holds no fear and just LIVES…I think Rocksteady comes off like that too…just LIVE…You remember when Big Surf was the place to go to beat the heat. Then hitting the drive in theater to see movie across the street. Here I say I am a 30’s-60’s girl but all I remember is the good times of the 70’s and 80’s…Cheese Crisp at Smitty’s was the best…
I forgot what I was replying…oh well
I sure like memories and I am having nice ones this week
in your video-
who is the injured foot guy
call me Miss Attentive
aced this—
nice.
can you?
https://youtu.be/wtbXPdCEhPk
Joy,
Yes…that is me in the grey shirt. And I did spend a lot of years in a lot of gyms lifting a lot of weights. I didn’t skimp on the Stair Master, but I think I have a water retention problem. I’m pretty sure it’s not because I eat too much food? I think it’s maybe a thyroid issue? You made me really laugh hard over the whole polar bear comparison.
That photo was taken just after I retired on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff ride where we were Subject Matter Experts. That is where I first met Dr. Putnam since he had been on that fire as a single resource smokejumper in an overhead capacity.
The guy on my right, was the lead sawyer (Hardy) and I was running the second saw for our crew on Battlement Creek. The guy on my left (Bill) was there as a crewman. who later became my Number 2 for seven years and he swamped for me when I was a sawyer.
Hardy left our crew at the end of that season and spent the next 30 years as a USFS smokejumper out of Missoula. He was actually still jumping when that photo was taken and didn’t retire until maybe five years later. Bill was the Helicopter Operations Manager on the Tongass National Forest in southeast Alaska. He is still working today.
You can see the Battlement Creek Mesa in the background and the photo was taken at a roadside memorial built and maintained by Colorado and the Grand Mesa Fire Department who took the initial suppression action on the fire before it got away from them.
As far as the Scott Fire goes, I always prided myself (as I have written many times) on being a grunt and a ground pounder and so I never knew anything about anything on fires except for what my specific assignment was and that was the way I liked it.
There would usually be three or more divisions on a big fire and maybe three or more sectors in each division. And there would maybe be three or more crews per sector. So…I just focused on the fire line I was responsible for and I let others worry about everything else.
And yes, we were on top of the mountain when the Scott Fire topped out on the and I do remember some air tankers there but I had my hands full since things were going to hell in a hand basket on our line, that fire hit our line with a vengeance in a full frontal crown fire so I didn’t pay much attention to anything else, it was kinda scary, I thought we were going to lose it and then all of our packs and gear would have been lost on the Helispot. It was one of the more exciting fires I was on.
We spiked out, eventually got rained in, helicopters couldn’t fly, so we had to hump it all of the way down off that mountain in the mud carrying our full packs and all of our tools. And when we finally get to the Drop Point, those stupid fucks told me to load my crew with all of our tools tools into that stakeside truck and it was downhill from there. So…I don’t know who else was on that fire or what they were doing, there could have been some jumpers there?
MY REPLY IS IN CAPS BELOW
Gary Olson says
JANUARY 18, 2018 AT 3:31 AM
Joy, HI GARY
Yes…that is me in the grey shirt. And I did spend a lot of years in a lot of gyms lifting a lot of weights. I didn’t skimp on the Stair Master, but I think I have a water retention problem.
WATER WEIGHT—I GET THAT
I’m pretty sure it’s not because I eat too much food?
NO WAY—I GET IT—HAVE YOU EVER DONE A 40 DAY FAST—I AM WORKING ON BUILDING TO DO IT…USUALLY BY DAY 12 OR 17 I GIVE UP—
I think it’s maybe a thyroid issue? You made me really laugh hard over the whole polar bear comparison.
SHIT YEAH- THAT IS WHAT I FIRST THOUGHT OF—POLAR BEAR…
That photo was taken just after I retired on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff ride where we were Subject Matter Experts. That is where I first met Dr. Putnam since he had been on that fire as a single resource smokejumper in an overhead capacity. YEAH I RECOGNIZED THE CONOCO GAS STATION…RIGHT…WHATEVER…
As far as the Scott Fire goes, I always prided myself (as I have written many times) on being a grunt and a ground pounder and so I never knew anything about anything on fires except for what my specific assignment was and that was the way I liked it.OH OK–
neat link
http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/imwtk-ic.htm
FIRST OFF if that is YOU in the middle in grey shirt
I am FOREVER gonna be nice to you (mainly out of polar bear fears I have)— holy shit —you got crushing arms—and RTS even dares to use intellect next to those arms? whoah now we must reroute the set of balls lowered to RTS—how do you RTS challenge Gary…man, no way…HUGE girth….
Yeah you could pass for Jabba’s girth measurement—
YOU ARE SOLID…shit. I only seen this Moab arguement video and it was more mouth fire in that video—so yeah that was a shock…
GARY SAID:
Small world Joy…the Scott Fire in 1983 on the Coronado National Forest was in the Chiricahua Mountains above Sierra Vista. The fire camp was being run out of Fort Huachaca when we weren’t spiked out, which was the entire time we were there until we got sent home early because where we were was a long helicopter flight to the very top of the mountain range until we got rained out, but we were supposed to go back to finish and tie off the fire lines.
MY REPLY- so is this the same time fire with the Carr Peak south of Sierra Vista?….so what I learned about that fire was appx 70-80 FF were on that Chiricahua fire—and 30-40 on the Huachuca blaze…it was a 10 to 1 ratio Federal winning out on who was fighting it…Did you find the 7 aerial tankers to be helpful on that fire, Gary? What team was the one that went in by mules…or did some just look like jackasses…So you got helicoptered in…ok….Was Dr. Ted Putnam on this fire? Was this where the smokejumpers arrived for duty but due to the winds and steep terrain they did not use them? So the Huachucas were the focus huh? So who is Terry Dyess on this fire? Man all these 70’s and 80’s talk of fires reminds me of when my dad’s best friend the logger hated your industry with a passion…and also reminds me of Ben Franklin and YellowFront stores and Tom’s Tavern…and AJ Bayless/Alpha Beta/Lucky’s/Neb’s Market and fill the card up to get free milk…and my favorite Smitty’s where you can shop for food and ammo
or Legend City…Gemco…McCrory’s, TG&Y, Fedmart, Sprouse Reitz,..Woolco, Newberry’s, Wards and Yates. and I use to go crazy dancing with the employees at Ed Debevics…miss those days….
A night out consisted of family dinner at the Lunt Avenue Marble Club. Their deep fried mushrooms were great….Blakelys gas…the great drive ins where dad smashed us all in the trunk to get in…Pinnacle Peak was a spot in the late 80’s/90’s we took business clients just to get their tie cut off….my brother and I just did castles and coasters and did the rope course and roller coasters and stuff…but do you remember when Metrocenter Mall had a below-grade ice skating rink. Watching skaters from the overlook above was the best way to escape the summer heat and I met/spent time talking as a young teen to Alice Cooper and his family and never knew who he was until my cousin walked up and “freaked out” asking for his autograph and I was actually talking chill with a famous guy; no clue…good ol days…of A R I Z O N A….where my brother met Mick Jagger at circle K….Metrocenter also had a Farrell’s ice cream parlor. My pops dad subscribed to the Phoenix Gazette (afternoon newspaper) and the Arizona Republic on Sunday….You remember when the Brass Armadillo antique mall was Angel’s – a building supply warehouse similar to Home Depot…..We ate breakfast at Sambo’s or Bob’s Big Boy or Furr’s…..You drove to Central and Thomas to have strawberry pie at Big Boy’s because it was a car hop and they brought it to your car…Thrifty’s ice cream IS MY ALL TIME FAV MEMORY…You remember when houses were built with carports instead of garages. Roofs were covered with wood shakes or asphalt shingles instead of stone tiles….still all cookie cutter visions…I remember my dad and I went to Lake Pleasant and he got drunk at that white building bar and handed me a few telephone books to sit on and the keys and said drive kid as a KID and he says STOP THE CAR—he runs so fast—my dad was VERY tall and he ran killed a javalina with his bare hands and carried it back and threw it in the bed of the truck and said drive…and he was bloody as all hell and I thought how did he get blood on him with no knife or gun? He snapped the neck to the point the blood oozed out of the mouth…he took it home and he hung it up in the carport and all the neighbors were disgusted especially Lee Miller who was long term employee to Honeywell…I remember going over to see his kids and I knocked and he said to his wife do not let her in- we have to make a neighborhood point to shun that asshole Bill …because my pops took a knife and drained the javalina on the carport then he took it to be taxidermist and the man asked him for his tag and my pops said no I just saw it and got it- no tag…the man said no you have to have a tag- it’s the law and he is a giant and was like “no, I am the law”…(and he was working for Arpaio I think then so technically…) point was the days where INDIVIDUALISM was ALIVE…more than today due to fear of fines and jail time except Sonny has never ever changed and is an individual who holds no fear and just LIVES…I think Rocksteady comes off like that too…just LIVE…Bikini Car washes…You remember when Big Surf was the place to go to beat the heat. Then hitting the drive in theater to see movie across the street. Here I say I am a 30’s-60’s girl but all I remember is the good times of the 70’s and 80’s…Cheese Crisp at Smitty’s was the best…
I forgot what I was replying…oh well
I sure like memories and I am having nice ones this week
Joy,
You posted: ” …and RTS even dares to use intellect next to those arms? whoah now we must reroute the set of balls lowered to RTS—how do you RTS challenge Gary…man, no way…HUGE girth…. … Yeah you could pass for Jabba’s girth measurement— YOU ARE SOLID…shit.”
I don’t know why this is a big surprise to you. And I would change some slight punctuation by removing the “…” to make this a more accurate statement. YOU [Gary] ARE SOLID shit..
He is not solid shit all the time, just some of the time..
RTS,
I really feel like our relationship is finally making some significant progress. I really like the way you are opening up and sharing your feelings. I think we both have room to grow while working towards common goals and interests in the future.
XOXOXO
Gary,
Anything for you My Friend when it comes to exposing those types.
I will do my best. I did a brief search the other day after you posted this and didn’t come up with anything that caught my eye.
The Coronado NF, back in the day, was where the SW Region USFS always sent their ‘disciplinary promotion’ candidates to, when they f**ked up on another Forest in the Region.
Gary,
The one above mysteriously reposted from a reply above and then crashed once and posting this now for the third time, which indicates you must be f**king worth it..
I too really feel like our relationship is finally making some major progress. I really like the way you are opening up and sharing some of your innermost feelings. I think we both have room to grow while working toward future common goals and interests.
I have also included a link to a good article that may help us in our growth, especially you.
Thanks, but I will pass on the hugs and kisses.
https://www.theblaze.com/news/2014/10/21/liberals-will-unfriend-you-for-disagreeing-with-them-and-six-other-things-revealed-in-huge-study-about-how-americans-see-the-news
RTS,
I’m pretty sure this issue isn’t preventing our relationship from going to the next level. I get most of my news from Breitbart and what doesn’t come from there, I get from monitoring the Drudge Report and Alex Jones, so…I think we’re good.
Gary Olson says
JANUARY 19, 2018 AT 12:11 AM
RTS,
I’m pretty sure this issue isn’t preventing our relationship from going to the next level. I get most of my news from Breitbart and what doesn’t come from there, I get from monitoring the Drudge Report and Alex Jones, so…I think we’re good.
MY REPLY:
all media is not sharing you everything Gary…
I don’t believe the media but I take tidbits from them and fact check it
but I don’t take it at face value…
Anytime in life when I think something is pure that I read
ends up I am the laughing joke…
so I do not anymore trust what is shown to me…
Call me just too sensitive for the real world…
I can post the bumper sticker pics if you want…
I am on but I have Rim Rock bible studies from 5 to 8 pm today via conference skype
and last week I did not “pay attention” much and was writing someone else and my week proved that…
due to back channel incoming…
I am sorry if I am offending anyone lately by my late night writings—good points and hope to work on that…
as well when you placed the link to the widow’s area- it is not our world or our judgement
just felt to write what I did because only she knows what is going on there not us
yet I always felt if during the PR of ONLY THE BRAVE you never saw her husband in the public online areas
except on here someone mentioned it was on her husband’s private public profile then it vanished…
that maybe just maybe men did not even know she was even married…
and if someone says something to you in compliments or try to attempt to know you in ways you feel are inappropriate married or not or whatever your status is…
then still speak kind is all because we all are His…
aggression is not needed. We all have our flights and plights and moments…
Some quite innocent…some a Freudian slip…some just to mess/joke around
…some to boost your day 
…whatever the case I learned I myself need to tame my tongue and for that I am very sorry the one(s) I offended on my fast…
I wish my eye sight was better like some…
Have a great weekend
John, new chapter please
https://www.ushotshots.com/user/dougfir777/
thanks—got it—
Gary said:
He remembers how we picked up his slack on the Murdoch Basin Fire of 1979 in the Wasach Mountains when he and his crew were shirkers.
MY REPLY:
how come RTS has not shown young pics of him like you and Bob and Norb…???
Because RTS is not prideful and vain
RTS,
Please don’t piss on my little parade and be so grouchy. I am just an old man now who isn’t making any new memories so I have to roll in the old ones. You will get here someday and then you may find more compassion and understanding in your heart.
XOXOXO
Gary,
I am not pissing on your parade, just making an observation and a comment. I am already there as well except not as grouchy as you.
I have to tolerate you, so you have to tolerate me. it goes both ways.
Unless you are in the USFS and one is tolerant only if one agrees with another’s Liberal blather, otherwise one is intolerant.
Whoa now…Joy wasn’t joking about your liberal use of “intellect”, except now I think you might be showing off.
Although I am still trying to figure out what she meant when she was wrote about “rerouting your balls?” How would that even work, and why is Joy messin’ with your balls anyway?
But…back on point, the last paragraph (this tablet won’t let me copy and paste it) above went right over my head. Whoosh!
Although I did notice you upped your game the other day when you described my posts using the word I prefer, which is
“diatribe”, rather than the cruder word…”rant.” So…I do want you to know I appreciate that courtesy…thank you!
FYI…I was giving you full credit for your post retirement gigs when I referenced some day you will join me just spending your days monitoring Breitbart, the Drudge Report and Alex Jones like I do, while daydream-in’ about my glory days.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6vQpW9XRiyM
Yes indeed, those are definitely good sources. I also like Wall Street Journal and definitely FOX News, with all the beautiful women, especially for their amazing minds, and their gorgeous legs.
MY REPLY BELOW
Gary Olson says
JANUARY 19, 2018 AT 12:24 AM
Whoa now…Joy wasn’t joking about your liberal use of “intellect”,
I KINDA FIGURED YOU WERE GONNA WRITE THIS GARY
except now I think you might be showing off.
DOUBT HE IS-
Although I am still trying to figure out what she meant when she was wrote about “rerouting your balls?”
I WAS REROUTING YOUR SET GARY
NOT HIS
BECAUSE MANY TIMES I HAVE SAID THE NEW YEARS EVE BALL FALLS BUT MIGHT BE YOUR SET
ON HOW YOU WRITE AT TIMES
YET NONE HAS EVER SUED YOU
AND BECAUSE I SAW YOUR GIRTH AND CRUSHING ARMS AND I HAD NIGHTMARES ON POLAR BEARS—AND YOU REMIND ME NOW OF POLAR BEARS—
I THOUGHT AND WONDERED IF RTS EVER SAW YOU BECAUSE HE CAN BE BRAZEN AT TIMES GARY AND LIKE I SAID DUE TO YOUR GIRTH I BOW OUT…
AND I WAS AMAZED THE SET HE MUST OF HAD TO WRITE AS I HAVE SEEN HIM BE
BOLD
AND
UNAFRAID
WAS ALL—WAS NOT A LITERAL SENSE YET APOLOGIZE FOR THE PERCEPTIONS…
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=have%20the%20balls
I AM SORRY GARY…
WAS VERY LOCKER ROOM LINGO…
BLAME IT ON ALL MY CELEBRITY CHARITY GOLF TOURNAMENTS I PARTICIPATED IN…
LEARNED IT THERE
WHERE THE GRASS IS GREENER….
(BECAUSE IT IS FERTILIZED WITH BULLSHIT)
SO ITS JUST ME BULLSHITTING…
TO FERTILIZE FURTHER JOKES…
SORRY.
How would that even work, and why is Joy messin’ with your balls anyway?
YEAH NOW I GET WHY I GOT WHAT I GOT THIS WEEK—
I WROTE IT FROM ANOTHER PERCEPTION BUT SURE CAN SEE HOW IT WENT THERE
WOULD IT BE BETTER IF I AM A TRANSGENDER ;)’
WHEN EVOLUTION HAPPENED THEY TOLD ME TO TURN AROUND…GARY…
SOMETHINGS GONE WRONG I WAS TOLD
…I THOUGHT THEY MEANT MY MIND…MAYBE NOT.
Although I did notice you upped your game the other day when you described my posts using the word I prefer, which is
“diatribe”, rather than the cruder word…”rant.” So…I do want you to know I appreciate that courtesy…thank you!
I NOTICED THAT TOO— HE WAS OFF THIS WEEK— MUST OF BEEN JOKING WITH YOU…HE CAN AT TIMES…
That’s okay, I can’t think of anything I need my balls for at this point in my life…so, if RTS can use them, he can have them.
No thanks, I have my own set, so I’ll just hang onto them. Thanks anyway
Gary Olson says
JANUARY 17, 2018 AT 12:46 AM
Joy,
RTS made me too sad to respond to anything you said…because as usual you’re…complicated. Please keep me up to speed on Sonny’s condition on the back channel.
MY REPLY—
no way…there is no way YOU got sad on THAT…I gave the good points to Jabba…
Complex Joy saying good night…zzzz
Sonny emailed a little bit ago and he is recovering…he had his son get him out “sooner” little while ago and is recovering with his dogs and he next does the hernia thing and he confirmed when I went into his body and saw what was happening that every point I brought up was spot on…and the doctors confirmed with those diagnosis what I saw so now the Irish keeps keeping on…Amazing huh. He is cut up…and so he as to be careful but I am not gonna say that anymore…he is gonna do what he is gonna do…and he is….and always will…he was a miner and a logger and welder and probation officer and taxi driver and counselor and bartender…7 dangerous jobs and married 6 times another dangerous job…and still alive in spite of all that…so applause goes to this fella who has so many lives…
Gary said:
I am watching Morning Joe and checkin’ out Mika, I am old…not dead.
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s–ULyxGFJj–/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/kdd8xuty3djigkxymmor.gif
MY REPLY- let me guess it’s a man thing…right…is this a lesson week for Joy….geez….this site is not for the young and new…oh my.
Waking up with Mika huh—-I like her neck, Gary…she sure sticks it out there on Trump and her books and speeches
huh
by some of the videos I saw from your recent inserts…are you a masochist? I would find it quite painful to watch daily their resentful squawking— a true trainwreck indeed…I never saw the show because I am up at noon due to schedules–have not seen a morning after 6am in almost 6 months because I go to sleep at 6am—
what I saw from what little I saw was a man telling a woman how wrong she is…then back and forth it went…I can think of BETTER pre-caffeine jolts than that—
-or better than waking up to her…but that is me—I prefer the sultry looks and clean look of my ever so lovely Veronica Lake…but I am very old fashioned there Gary…I always like the 40’s….the men were such “beef cakes”….
maybe watching them makes you feel like you are in a much better darker place…YOUR HAPPY PLACE…
here is an even much darker spot for you—you should be more interested in watching our own Eric Marsh actor currently on Youtube giving himself his own wedgies nowadays… ( h t t p s ://youtu. be/CdzgUwsgKOI )
Now that’s news…huh
either way that media shit is just morphed into some kind of fascination
and shit if it was not for one of you IM folks I might of spent another second on that tv but I got off that funk…I mean I never thought my fun night with nieces would less than 24 hours get my first moment to my life of incoming newness but it did and I was like a broom beating the shit out of it…so you can have Mika, Gary and I will keep with no media just my INVESTIGATIVEmedia moments is enough…
what I got from what you said was bottom line situational awareness
even from the higher ups who hide behind these rules
as well use them to protect them when need be
even when things fail and they just blame the ones on the line for not following the rules
even though like you said it’s a keep a job thing
but I do find that hard to absorb
because if I am in the black videoing and taking photos and audio recording and I say NO to my bosses order—
believe you me they are not gonna put my job out the door because I got the data to prove why I made that sound decision to not move out of the black…and stay alive
they can try all they want to do their political bullshit much like they are to me as the eyewitness to YHF…
they can have their push and deny and hide all day long or create something I am not like I saw with some authors who support a narrative…I hang out with folks 80+ years old and I am good with it because that generation you can just be you and not worry…when I ask them which came first THE SWAMP THING or THE MAN THING … they know I mean Marvel comics….marshy curiosities not sexual…and at their age if we talked man thing it usually meant prostate cancer…
anyways let’s agree that we need a “good sense of humor” to get through this here life and if you want to tell me Mika is a man thing….Than sorry about that and your toilet will glow with radium seeds…you got that to look forward to…
but I assure the truths no matter if they decide to give me some outrageous “commercial” fee because I fall under OTHER than at that point John Dougherty gets wind of that and I lay it in his lap but I think they rather play the “waiting” game….or it got lost…can you make a new one…
and I would make a new one…I persevere- on day 3 of my fast and almost the day 4 mark and well I am so very very happy
Joy,
I was just being facetious about the Mika, if you (meaning me) are bored enough you will watch almost anything. I did however, think the SNL skit was really funny. I should go back to Moab…or somewhere.
Yeah…I get the boredom and tv…they go hand in hand…
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 13, 2018 at 9:21 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Recently revealed, according to several WF, in September 2013,
>> several of them hiked the likely suspected route of the GMHS
>> on the afternoon of June 30, 2013. Bailing off the mid-slope
>> road down toward the BSR, and near the bottom in the lower
>> third of the slope, they located a Sky Probe antenna from a
>> Bendix King radio, similar to the one depicted in the link below.
>>
>> https://www.vincentcom.com/p-1010-super-skyprobe-oem-high-gain-telescoping-portable-antenna-part-ssp58fmk2-02b.aspx
>>
>> This is strong support for the conclusion that the GMHS traveled
>> down through the unburned brushfield on their way to the BSR.
>>
>> I do not know if any of them revealed their finding to any of
>> the SAIT and/or ADOSH Investigators
IF this is true… then that ‘antenna’ is potentially a very important piece of evidence.
Still need to know more details, however, such as whether or not the antenna showed any signs of damage.
Was it ‘burned’?
Was it ‘broken’ in any way ( as in, signs of it ‘breaking off’ a handheld )?
A lot of ‘investigators’ with their own radios and gear had been traversing that same ground between June and September of 2013. If there is no sign of fire damage, then perhaps someone dropped/lost it out there AFTER June 30.
If there ARE signs of ‘fire damage’… and if it really does show any signs of having ‘broken off’ something… then this piece of ‘evidence’ COULD lend more credence to the theory that ( perhaps ) one of the GM hotshots had taken a bad FALL during the descent into the fuel-filled box canyon… and that this might have caused the whole team to be DELAYED during their descent.
Proving that one of them had FALLEN and suffered an injury would, in no way, excuse the bad decision making which put them where they were… but it would add to the details of what happened that day and why SPGS1 Gary Cordes would later testify that not only did he KNOW they were “headed to the BSR”… but that he also felt (quote) “they had plenty of time to get there.”
The existing evidence that this *might* have happened starts with the autopsy reports and the significant blunt-force-injury BRUISES that were found on the head of Clayton Whitted.
They were the kind of ‘bruises’ that can only happen while you still have some blood pressure in your system to cause the ‘subscalp hemorrhaging ( bleeding )’.
In other words… they could have only happened while Whitted was still ALIVE.
This has all been discussed before on another InvestigativeMEDIA thread…
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: After years of delay, the Granite Mountain Hotshot autopsy records are released
Published: December 9, 2015
http://www.investigativemedia.com/after-years-of-delay-the-granite-mountain-hotshot-autopsy-records-are-released-to-the-public/#comment-319523
From one of the discussions in the comments section about the injuries to Clayton Whitted’s head listed in his autopsy report…
———————————————————————————————————-
** CLAYTON WHITTED’S FOREHEAD INJURIES
From the Medical Examiner’s report…
Clayton Whitted – Evidence of blunt force injuries include a 4×3 cm area of left frontal subscalp hemorrhage and a 3×1 cm area of right frontal subscalp hemorrhage.
DIMENSIONS…
4 x 3 cm area = 1.57 inch x 1.18 inch area ( Slightly smaller than a book of matches ).
3 x 1 cm area = 1.18 inch x 0.39 inch area ( Slightly smaller than the one above ).
Definition of Hemorrhage…
A hemorrhage may be “external” and visible on the outside of the body or “internal,” where there is no sign of bleeding outside the body. Bleeding from a cut on the face is an external hemorrhage. Bleeding into the spleen or liver are examples of internal hemorrhage.
So basically… ‘Hemorrhage’ means ‘Bleeding’ and ‘subscalp’ obviously means ‘under the scalp’.
‘Left frontal subscalp’ is referring to the the LEFT forehead, as you are facing the person, and ‘Right frontal subscalp’ refers to the RIGHT forehead, as you are facing the person.
So what this is all basically saying is that Whitted took some ‘blow’ to the forehead ( while he was still ALIVE ) that was hard enough to cause bleeding under the scalp ( but not break the skin ) in two places on either side of his forehead, above his eyebrows.
The spot on the left side of his forehead was pretty big ( 1.57 inch x 1.18 inch ).
That’s just slightly smaller than a standard ‘book of matches’.
The spot on the right side of his forehead was smaller and thinner ( 1.18 inch x 0.39 inch area ), which is the same ‘width’ of a book of matches but only about as tall as the ‘striking area’ of the matchbook.
NOTE: The Medical Examiner’s report for Whitted makes NO ATTEMPT to explain the head injury or what might have CAUSED it.
My guesses for Whitted’s head injury might be ( in order of probability? )…
1. He ‘stood up’ during the burnover itself, then passed out and fell face first onto one of those rocks that were all over the ground where they died.
2. The possibility of him trying to ‘knock himself out by banging his head on a rock, or something, DURING the burnover. This very thing has been reprted by others who have survived burnovers. When the pain becomes unbearable… it is not uncommn to consider trying to ‘knock yourself out’ in an effort to escape the pain.
3. Whitted *might* have had a fall and suffered the head injuries sometime prior to the deployment, but it wasn’t all that bad of an injury to report on the radio or request any medical attention ( at least in their minds, anyway ).
If it happened on the hike down into the canyon… it MAY have been the source of a DELAY in their hike while everyone huddled around him to make sure he was OK.
In other words… it wouldn’t have taken an actual sprain or ankle break to cause a serious DELAY while they were hiking down and completely blind to the fire.
We already know they were so unconcerned about the ‘move’ they had decided to make that they weren’t even ‘hurrying’ on that first part of their hike on the two-track, from the ‘resting spot’ south to the ‘descent point’.
That same ( false ) sense of ‘no reason to hurry’ might have persisted as they dropped down into the blind box canyon.
So any ‘fall’ on the way down… with ANY kind of injury… would have caused an unanticipated DELAY while everyone stopped to make sure that one man was OK to continue, and they didn’t realize how much trouble they were getting into with each passing minute.
NOTE: The SAIR report actually tells us that Clayton Whitted was, in fact, found lying prone ( FACE DOWN ).
But it does also say his shelter was ‘partially on him’ when he was found.
So maybe he did try and ‘stand up’, but then fell face down again and hit his forehead on the ground, causing those ‘blunt force’ injuries at that time.
From page 96 of the Arizona Forestry SAIR document…
———————————————————————————————————-
Clayton Whitted – Granite Mountain #4
3. Body Position: The firefighter was found lying prone with feet towards the northeast.
4. Shelter Use – It is unclear whether the firefighter was able to fully deploy the shelter. The firefighter was mostly deployed inside the fire shelter; the legs and back were covered by the shelter.
——————————————————————————————————-
But now… if some ‘broken antenna’ really was found on the ‘descent path’… it would increase the probability that Clayton Whitted fell *might* have fallen during the DESCENT into the fuel-filled box canyon, and not at the deployment site itself.
Any chance you can just tell us WHO these FFs were that ( supposedly ) found this antenna?
Gary said:
Therefore, the only rule that is worth being redundant with is, “Fight fire aggressively but provide for safety first”, in my opinion. That is the way I was taught to fight fire and that is the way I fought fire and the way I taught others to fight fire. Others can, and have fought fire as they have find or have found best for them.
MY REPLY- RTS, do you think Gary is right here stating Fight fire aggressively…shouldn’t the word fight be changed to LIGHT fires aggressively? Help me understand.
Smiling.
I did not see anyone raise their hands for a new chapter so we are stuck in this rabbit hole of a chapter. Who gets the role as the mad hatter?
Another chapter would be good.
This chapter is already failing to completely load in some smartphone browsers.
WTKTT,
Thanks for the reply with your details and the other insight.
I am hoping that Joy will chime in on this because she may some knowledge about this as well.
I will do my best on finding more details on the condition of the antenna, however, very unlikely on the WF identities unless they give me their okays to do so..
Recently revealed, according to several WF, in September 2013, several of them hiked the likely suspected route of the GMHS on the afternoon of June 30, 2013. Bailing off the mid-slope road down toward the BSR, and near the bottom in the lower third of the slope, they located a Sky Probe antenna from a Bendix King radio, similar to the one depicted in the link below.
https://www.vincentcom.com/p-1010-super-skyprobe-oem-high-gain-telescoping-portable-antenna-part-ssp58fmk2-02b.aspx
This is strong support for the conclusion that the GMHS traveled down through the unburned brushfield on their way to the BSR.
I do not know if any of them revealed their finding to any of the SAIT and/or ADOSH Investigators
Sonny was hospitalized in the past 24 hours- keep you posted—
My dad was always puzzled when I was a tot reading Og…that man is ingrained into the person I am, Gary
I hiked today and on the hike I made typo errors below due to sun glare and IM glitches
I came back and fell asleep thinking about your ONE RULE and as it has its point it is also dangerous to sum it up that way
Bob Powers and RTS firmly spoke of these rules so early on here on IM…
I was a pain always prodding and always asking and re-asking…
I would inquire sooooo much that I dragged it into muddy waters and back because I was like what?
So lets blame the men breaking rules RTS and Bob?…I back then pondered
but I did that because I know more data than RTS and Bob that always TRUTH will push to the forefront at His time…
but I never disregarded these fine men. They must of been like get this girl off here with these redundancy debates and inquiries
but I am am better person because of those times.
I “listened” and I learned and researched…and I am not a firefighter yet those rules are so ingrained in my daily life and I applaud and appreciate the debates and firm stand-hold of these 2 men we had over and over.
I am a better hiker because of them. A better person. I know me who gave them such a hard time is on a public forum saying this…because it is the right thing to do because you have spoken Gary to say you have ONE RULE…
Just today Gary-
I saw my leg giving out but I thought about not telling John and just push myself and I was at 2.47 miles out at that point when I saw myself pushing on and I credit RTS’s wisdom of sharing here for this week’s push…
I looked around and knew I had a lookout and I knew he was there if I needed to communicate a need if it aroused then as I climbed the hill I was looking for easiest escape route and safe areas in case I passed out or collapsed…
what those men wrote on IM is ingrained in all my walks and I am not a firefighter but I am safer because of them…
and if its ingrained than its just natural as my one foot in front of the other…
and it is not something to be remembered but lived and felt…you should know all the rules by just being a wild land firefighter and if you do not when you wake up “read them” silently and at lunch “read them” silently and at dinner “read them” silently and when you go to bed “read them” aloud. It should be a part of your fire industry DNA and each one out there’s souls…to keep you alive.
You follow them then you come home alive.
when I go outside I see the sky..the terrain..the weather…and recently there was a fire here and I called the residents to alert them and they said should I stop watching tv and I said I am here to make you aware…its your duty and responsibilities to do with the data to be safe not my duty to run to your rescue IN PERSON…and they said oh ok Joy the fire dept will send us a evacuation alert if I need to get up away from my tv…
so you all here have that ingrained in me too…keep my eye on the fire and watch the size and the color of plumes and watch weather…
YOU ARE A TRUE LEADER BOB AND RTS…and not institutionalized…those are rubbish comments of Gary…and a disrespect to the DNA…and you both.
and the 10 and 18 and lces are crucial as water is to a firefighter…or any human being…it is a dangerous role Gary is spreading this one rule because dropping down a canyon he will lack the essentials…
like when we live each day not getting our bodies NEEDS… water and antioxidants and etc…food is life…basic knowledge like the learning center LCES AND 10 AND 18…we need them…
it actually is easy…but Gary is making it very complicated by one rule but without me knowing and feeling and living with my water and the rules to live healthy…things happen to the body and it shows on my vlog the changes that happen when I don’t stay mindful…
I also would ingrain in my crew the terrain we step on know it…so many times with these research tools you see what they are doing real time on their fire tactics and yeah some are just not getting it or not trained enough or not adult enough…but there is areas needing improvements…otherwise I would not be at the level I am at trying to ensure changes are made…
Now Gary is not wrong by his ONE RULE content but its well known you do not drop down into a canyon with fire in the areas yet you also know you do not leave the black a safe zone either when there is additional data and activities happening and one can obviously see it from their standpoint…yeah so there is more than one rule…
You remind me when I cook or bake I never go by a recipe I just make from the heart of love and damn is your palette left salivating for more…I never followed rules or instructions unless I worked for Naples or a restaurant that had to have “consistency” so I had to follow their recipe rules…but my jobs respected me soooo much I was in charge of the daily specials that had no rules or recipes…mine was what people internationally came to the place for—the specials- the owners knew it too. They wanted my specials on the menu but I never could because I do from the heart and I cook with love; no recipes…Sonny can tell you I can make a steak melt in your mouth and you can cut it with a bread knife after I have worked my marbleizing magic…caramelizing was also one of my favorite things to do—I love to capture you through your tummy…always has been my passion….
anyways I was hurt when Gary was debating the rules…yes, me…I was like I can see me not a firefighter not grasping it but Gary???? Man, Gary. Seems each year when that New Years Eve ball drops…we are talking your set gets lower and lower and more brazen and not thinking too much about the future because dropping down in the canyon could be a good golden rule but there has to be more to this…because I am not comprehending…and that is not too hard…but you survived and lived through all the years you put in and you are saying ONE RULE so help me understand and feel that ONE RULE…help me disregard the DNA of set rules and learn your way…
I ask myself is Gary’s comment a good habit to adapt to FORGET ALL RULES but ONE?
Should I erase all I learned from RTS and Bob and listen to Gary…a new way…a new life on things?
I guess your reasoning I find myself at the decision corner or countering?
I love the qualities of IM and what it offers and challenges and disregards…this site on here and off here “back channel” has made me THINK not just of fire actions but life actions too…
recently a topic I had almost 6 months ago came up in another way and I am not mature enough to know how to interact so I found my self OVER analyzing a simple comment
and I did not know if I was doing it because I thought God was testing/seeing if I learned from my error (growth level)(like testing me) because at that moment did not seem like an error…shit it ain’t no different then anyone who has a vice to life may it be substance or chew or whatever makes you feel like you are alive and living…
but I felt it was not ever a comment I get incoming for my life so didn’t know what to do with the data…just say “thanks” and move along……???…on something that lays foreign to my existence. Yet yesterday what it did Gary was put a shine in my eyes, unwrinkle my brow, brought a smile to my lips, and echo in my heart and voice…I had not been able to move literally and that moment I said let’s go walk tomorrow and we did today and I USE all the rules of your industry…even the one rule one too…I am happy because of the people here sharing…it means something to me. I know it means alot to many as I get the back channel feedback…There are some who think John Dougherty will one day turn this blog into a book and I do not see it but RAISE YOUR HAND FOR A NEW CHAPTER at least…
HEY JOHN—- new chapter request please
thanks.
Joy,
If you follow sound wild land firefighting principles, tactics and strategies you are automatically following all of the rules that have been named here and all of the rules that are inherent in the job that haven’t been formally identified yet.. Naming some of them while failing to name all of them, is absurd and is the provenience of the Department of Redundancy Department and the Department of Incompleteness..
Therefore, the only rule that is worth being redundant with is, “Fight fire aggressively but provide for safety first”, in my opinion. That is the way I was taught to fight fire and that is the way I fought fire and the way I taught others to fight fire. Others can, and have fought fire as they have find or have found best for them.
You are oversimplifying what I wrote. The memorializing some of the rules but excluding others was a knee jerk reaction by those in the Chief’s Office of the U.S. Forest Service in 1957 when they started with 10 of them. And then they said, whoops and added some more. And then they said whoops and added some more. And then they said whoops and added some more. They are still saying whoops and adding them today.
I started out observing all of them on day 1 and saved all of the whoops and adding more every time someone else was killed. So….to review. IF you are following sound wild land firefighting principals, tactics and strategies all of the time, you are also fighting fire aggressively but providing for safety first at the same time.
Those who lack competence, experience and common sense need to write them down and constantly review them, but unfortunately by doing so, they are standing to close to the elephant to see the elephant and therefore putting themselves and other at risk..
Do you think wild land firefighting is the only job that is inherently dangerous? How about structural firefighting? How many of their rules are written down for everyone to memorize and constantly review? That isn’t a rhetorical question since I don’t know anything about structural firefighting and they may have some for all I know?
I do however, know about another inherently dangerous job and that is law enforcement. And the inherent dangers are to numerous and varied for anyone to write them all down for others to memorize and follow. It makes more sense to competently train those who do the job on sound law enforcement practices, tactics and strategies and then tell them something like, “Let’s be careful out there” to remind them that they should, “Fight crime aggressively but provide for safety first.”
Now….I just repeated everything I wrote down below which if you would have read and comprehended first, you could have saved me the time of repeating what I have already wrote. But since I like you….I think you are worth it. And if you don’t agree, that’s okay because when you are a wild land firefighting supervisor you can do it your way…or not.
The whole, “Hotshot Rule of One”, which is, “Stay out of canyons above or in front of a wild fire” is just being tongue-in-cheek and if you don’t understand that, I am more than happy to clue you in since I value your participation here on this thread because that is a rule that should have been written by the Department of Obvious just like, “If you feel like taking a nap near the fire line you are really one stupid dumb ass” but apparently some really stupid dumb ass did fe
el like taking a nap near the fire line and was either hurt or killed so they wrote a rule that say’s you shouldn’t do it.
But…do you want to know how disingenuous and hypocritical that rule is? That is a rhetorical question because I have been bedded down by fire team overhead in numerous spike camps on the fire line that were burned over while we were sleeping in them. Sometimes we had to evacuate the spike camp and sometimes we just waited for the wildfire to burn around us. The point is, that is one stupid rule to write down for some stupid people to waste their time memorizing.
And the reason most agencies even try to memorialize rules and put them in “General Order”, “Standard Operating Procedures” or whatever they call their internal rules and regulations is so when an employee does violate one of those rules and something bad happens, the agency can say “Hey…it’s not our fault, we told them not to do it” IF they want to hang that employee out to dry.
If on the other hand, the agency violates one of those rules or they are violated by someone who they don’t want to hang out to dry, they pretend the rules don’t exist, or don’t apply. It’s just a “Cover Their Ass” if they want to use it which is normally referred to as a CYA which stands for “Cover Your Ass.”
Like everything. It’s complicated and only simple people who aren’t capable of nuance like RTS don’t get it.
And IF you remember, or even if you don’t…I started this whole conversation by stating I have gone along with RTS and Bob up until now and showed my belly numerous times in the face of their bullshit just because I didn’t want to go down this road because it is complicated and nuanced and requires those who participate in this king of discussion to be ably to distinguish what works for them and makes sense and what doesn’t.
For example…the entire SAIR by the SAIT is an example of this issue. No one includes them believes that NONE of the rules were violated by Marsh and Steed…that is a colossal JOKE, EVERYONE, including them know Marsh and Steed violated almost all of the rule that have been written down and some that haven’t…like, “Don’t deliberately lie and deceive the fire overhead team and everyone else what you are really doing because you want to pull a fast one and get away with being wayyyyy to cute for your own good, not to mention the good of those whose lives you are responsible for.”
That’s a pretty good fuckin’ rule wouldn’t you say? That’s a pretty fuckin’ important rule for everyone to follow…right? But have you seen that fuckin’ rule written down on any of RTS’ or Bob’s lists of rules? No? How come? It’s because not all of the rules are written down…just some of them are.
So…why are the SAIT lying with their SAIR? I think there are at least three reasons and all of them are right to some extent. But that all depends on how you feel about the SAIT and the fuckin’ agencies they represent.
Here is a copy of an email I received in the back channel that describes those reasons better than I can.
“I think there’s guilt involved and an attempt to heal the living in the report not ripping GM a new one. There’s also considerations of protecting major players in the game. Call it double-cya.”
Except it is actually a triple-CYA depending on how you count your CYS’s.
Or I guess depending on your count, it is a quad-CYA, now that I re-read it, I think it has four CYS;s.
“CYA’s”
As a matter of fact, Overhead on the Hog Fire of 1977 on the Shasta Trinity National Forest bedded hundreds of WF down in a spike camp and they could see the fire, or they should have been able to see the fire, would reach the camp that night.
Our crew boss saw that it would and he pulled us out to a safe location and then we watched as hundreds of WF went running down the back slope in the middle of the night and at least one person ran into a tree and knocked herself unconscious.
So…if it is a written rule that if, “You feel like taking a nap near the fire line” is a situation that “Shouts Watch Out!”, what is it when overhead bed hundreds of firefighters down ON the fire line that is about to be burned over?
It is actually the unofficial second rule that should always be observed by wild land firefighters in addition to, “Fight fire aggressively but provide for safety first” and that is, “Watch Out for Death From Above From Overhead.”
But…if you are already, “Fighting fire aggressively but providing for safety first”, you are already ignoring Overhead when you need to so it is a Redundant Order written by the Department of Redundancy Department. Get it? It’s complicated and should only be part of an “Advanced Discussion.”
Joy,
Let me try this another way by using the original 10 Standard Firefighting Orders.
If you were a professional, experienced, competent, capable, knowledgeable, etc., wildland firefighter, would you really need a list to tell you to keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts, know what your fire is doing at all times, base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire, identify escape routes and safety zones and make them known, post lookouts when there is possible danger, be alert, keep calm think clearly. act decisively, maintain prompt communications with your forces, your supervisor, and adjoining forces, give clear instructions and ensure they are understood. maintain control of your forces at all times. and fight fire aggressively, having provided for safety first?
Or would you do those things because you professional, experienced, competent, capable, knowledgeable, etc., wildland firefighter?
Would you ever say to yourself, or others…well, I was going to NOT be alert, NOT keep calm NOT think clearly. and NOT act decisively, BUT…thank God there is a rule that I should be alert, should keep calm, should think clearly and should act decisively…so I am going to do that instead?
Or are you going to be alert, keep calm, think clearly, and act decisively because you are professional, experienced, competent, capable, knowledgeable, etc., wildland firefighter?
I know what I would do and did do when I was a professional, experienced, competent, capable, knowledgeable, etc., wildland firefighter, I did those things because those were the common sense and OBVIOUS things to do as a professional, experienced, competent, capable, knowledgeable, etc., wildland firefighter.
Just go down the list and ask yourself…do I need any of those things on a list in order to do them? Or are those the things I am going to do because I want to put the fire out and then go home?
But that is not to say, that everyone who goes through the training to become a professional, experienced, competent, capable, knowledgeable, etc., wildland firefighter shouldn’t be trained because those are all sound principles of competent wildland firefighting techniques, tactics and strategies.
Is this horse dead enough for you? Or should I keep beating it?
Okay…just one more point because you wrote so many things above that are really insulting to me even though you didn’t understand that when you wrote them.
Don’t structural firemen and police officers among just two professions need to be alert, keep calm, think clearly, and act decisively?
Yes…they do. Why don’t they have a similar lists that tells them that is what they should be doing?
And the answer is…it’s because no one from the U.S. Forest Service Office of the Chief, sat down in 1957 (or anyone else at any other time) and wrote such a list up for them as a knee jerk reaction to fix a problem by making a list.
The danger with that kind of list…is that IF a wildland firefighter does not keep alert, calm, think clearly, and act decisively they can use violating those orders as a means to discipline up to firing that person…IF that is what they want to do.
Now…that is once again an over simplification, but similar things happen every day to someone somewhere in this country. Law enforcement is really bad at doing that and federal law enforcement is really bad at that and people lose everything they have worked their entire lives for if someone has the ass for them…and they don’t know where enough bodies are buried as an insurance policy to use as blackmail…or whitemail.
That’s why Jesse Steed took his crew down that chute even though he knew he was putting his crew at an unacceptalbe risk. Jesse Steed knew he had to keep bringing home a paycheck and his kids and wife needed the health insuracne he provided and he worked for two vindictive and petty supervisors, one was named Eric Marsh and the other is named Darrell Willis. So Jesse Steed took his crew down that chute or canyon or chimney, whatever you want to call it because he didn’t want to lose his job or even jeopardize it.
I was faced with the same choice on the Scott Fire on the Coronado National Forest (and many other times) and thank God I was always confident enough in my position and my supervisors so I was never afraid enough of being sent home from a fire with crew after being relieved of my command for disobeying orders and that was before there was a form you could fill out in order to officially disobey orders.
And the termination letters go something like this.
To; Captain Jesse Steed
Re: Immediate Termination For Cause
On June 30, 3013, while on the Yarnell Hill Fire you did not keep alert, calm, think clearly, and act decisively in direct violation of General Order 13.1.
Your immediate supervisor, Division Alpha Eric Marsh ordered you three seperate times to obey his direct order to keep alert, calm, think clearly, and act decisively and you refused his direct order.
Therefore, you are hereby terminated from your employment from the City of Prescott, Prescott Fire Department for disobeying the direct orders of your immediate supervior and General Order 13.1.
If you disagree with this decesion, you have the right to appeal this decision to the Merit System Protection Board or whatever within 30 days, but you are going to be doing it from your kitchen table at home and your paycheck will already have stopped and your insurance cards for your kids will have already stopped working…so good luck with that you stupid fuck. You should have done what you were ordered to do, your replacement will know better next time and follow the orders that have been given to him.
P.S.,
And even if you do win when and if you appeal our decision to the Merit System Protection Board and get your job back…it will be five years from now, you will have already lost your house to foreclosure, your wife will have left you three years earlier, your kids will already be calling another man daddy, you will be an alchoholic by then and you will get A job with the City of Prescott back, but it won’t be with the Prescott Fire Department, you will have negotiated with the city attorney because you don’t have an attorney and you live in your car to take a job at your old salary minus all of the overtime, hazard pay etc, you used to earn at whatever department we want to stick you so you will be the most miserable.
Been there…done some of that and was afraid of the rest of and I wouldn’t recommend it.
Oh…and one more thing.
None of that happened because Captain Jesse Steed led his crew down that chimney as he followed Eric Marsh’s flagging into wildland firefighting infamy.
And you know the rest of the story…right?
commonly known as…
the Dweeb here
Hi Gary
http://0.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/97/57/f04eda52a697958fdc8ddb9c6c5cb03e-tweeting-a-dead-horse.jpg
It appears the horse is dead, Gary….
unless it is a centaur…
then you might see the head pop out
and say
“Look at me”…”I am the centaur of attention”…
but after that photo if it is a centaur he might want to change his online dating profile from the waist up…
he looks roughed up…anyways, Gary…I want to say I got it
but I am like WTH on breaking news today with David Turpin & Louise Turpin…
Seriously? I mean where was the awareness or being weary from the people who lived near them? Shit, imagine if that was one of yours being mistreated…that is messed up…And how many kids was it…man…shew…I can see that in the 1700s and that being a good thing but WTH…
http://abcnews.go.com/US/13-siblings-ages-29-held-captive-parents-shackled/story?id=52364267
here is the story to the names I mentioned
ugh
Joy,
I am watching Morning Joe and checkin’ out Mika, I am old…not dead.
So…here is the bottom line for me if I can sum it up. All of those rules and guidelines are good and should be followed. I mean, who is going to argue that you shouldn’t base your actions on current and expected fire behavior?
All I’m trying to say is that not all behavior needs to be or can be codified and memorialized by someone in order for a professional Wildland Firefighter who has been properly trained to competently fight fire using sound wildland firefighting principle, tactics and strategies to do his or her job the right way.
.And now that list is up somewhere around 50 written rules. I think Paul Gleason was on to something when he advocated condensing and simplifying those rules into a form that is more manageable.
And the reason I never led my crew down any canyon to their deaths is because I never had any petty or vindictive supervisors or managers I was afraid of and I was never afraid of losing my job as a hotshot crew boss. I would be lying if I said I wasn’t concerned when I was flying home with my crew to Santa Fe in a jet that had been charted special to send us home from the Scott Fire, that was…concerning.
But…when I arrived in Santa Fe I went immediately to the Forest FMO who was friends with the IC who had sent us home because all of those guys were friends, it’s was one big good ole boys club and I said…Ray (Page) do you want to see me? He leaned back in his chair and said…”About what?”
I replied about being sent home with my crew from the Scott Fire. Ray swiveled around and looked out his window and said, “You can’t please all of the people all of the time” and he went back to working on whatever he had been working on when I walked in.
The reason I think Captain Jesse Steed did work for petty and vindictive supervisors and managers is because he clearly recognized how dangerous it was going to be to lead his crew down that death chute because he refused three times to do so…but in the end he did it anyway and they were all burned alive and died horrible deaths.
After I was relieved of my command on the Scott Fire, I was the only one being sent home at first. The Sector Boss then climbed onto the bus with the Line Boss and Fire Boss standing behind him and ordered my crew to get off the bus. The crew then threw spit cups, coke cans, sandwiches and anything else they could get their hands on at the Sector Boss while they cussed up a blue streak until he ran off the bus.
My crew always called me Dad, so RTS can go fuck himself and the horse he rode in on for being so insulting to me below by saying I identified with the warden from Cool Hand Luke.
So there. Nana nana poo poo to him. And FYI…I won his stupid bet because I referenced Dr. Putnam months before he did.
Fuck with the best…die with the rest.
Oh…and one more thing. I didn’t even bother to go see my immediate supervisor, who was District FMO Orlando Romero because I knew he had my back. Orlando always had my back.
P.S. Joy,
I am also being facetious about Finns and Finland. I’m just playin’ off a centuries old rivalry between Swedes and Finns hating or at least really disliking each other. Tribal divisions are strange. According to my History channel, all of us can be traced to one woman who was in Africa a really long time ago. So…can’t we all be friends?
And along those lines, I deeply regret fuckin’ with my old friend…the longest serving hotshot crew boss in history, who has certainly earned our respect for just that, and that alone.
Gary,
You posted: “Those who lack competence, experience and common sense need to write them down and constantly review them, but unfortunately by doing so, they are standing to close to the elephant to see the elephant and therefore putting themselves and other at risk.”
Negative, it ensures that we will always remember them and follow them to the best of out ability.
Watch Outs are just that., more like Guidelines, and we experience them on every fire on every shift. You cannot violate the watch Outs. They are not Rules which can be violated.
You can and should always disobey orders if they are illegal, immoral, unethical, or unsafe..
Steed did not disobey any of Marsh’s orders three times to go down the hill. Steed ultimately followed through on Marsh’s commands, however, Steed numerous times used classic ‘Mitigating and Hinting Speech’ in deference to authority because he was a Marine and Marines follow orders.
Please provide me the link where you allegedly referenced Dr. Putnam”s ‘Up In Smoke’ article before I did. Thank you
The rest of your spew and childish diatribe above is not worth responding to.
Gary,
Even though we are and always will be Hot Shot Brothers, there are times you remind me of the odious Jabba the Hut
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZy6G_vz_Ng
Robert the Second says
JANUARY 16, 2018 AT 10:26 PM
Gary,
Even though we are and always will be Hot Shot Brothers, there are times you remind me of the odious Jabba the Hut
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZy6G_vz_Ng
MY REPLY:
shit, first we are falling down my rabbit hole awaiting the NEW CHAPTER and the hole leads to Star Wars??? as me as Yoda and Gary as that—let me think which character RTS is?
hmmm….
going retro junk on me RTS—are ya…hard one…
so this is the throne room if Gary is this character you say….that means if going by the movie…everyone in this throne room are the vilest, most grotesque CREATURES ever conceived in the universe…oh crap…??? Don’t call Gary that…pick a new nickname please…
ok so you are gonna be either han d. solo…or obi one….is that how you saw obi? my brother was the sci fi guy not me…
hey Gary
I took the test
I am not Yoda—see:
http://www.seabreezecomputers.com/starwars/index.html?pic=rey&result=Rey
Crafty and industrious, you can turn the trash of others into creative treasure. You don’t give yourself enough credit for how talented and special you actually are.
Rey
75%
Han Solo
73%
Obi-Wan Kenobi
71%
Chewbacca
71%
Lando Calrissian
70%
Poe Dameron
69%
Qui-Gon Jinn
67%
R2-D2
66%
Luke Skywalker
65%
Yoda
63%
http://www.starwars.com/news/quiz-which-star-wars-the-last-jedi-character-are-you
THIS WAS MY RESULTS AND SOOOOOO VERY TRUE:
You’re Luke Skywalker!
Like the legendary Jedi, you are strong and capable but prefer to keep to yourself.
If you had it your way, you’d spend your days in a cave meditating, but when others need your help, you’ll always do what’s right.
Congratulations — you’re the courageous yet mysterious hero Luke Skywalker
RTS,
Ouch!
a long time ago
in a galaxy far away
I like nicknames
but jabba was harsh…??? wasn’t it RTS?
plus Gary aren’t you thin? Jabba has an enormous girth like me one year ago
Jabba who is the most sexually exploited character in the film—naked the entire time…
Jabba isn’t a hero, he’s clearly a good guy trying to do right for his community. So if we look at it this way then it is a good character for Gary—
plus Gary white women love Jabba—
last I heard Jabba ate only raw veggies
BUT
Gary couldnt be Jabba
There were three puppeteers, including Philpott, inside Jabba: a little person in the tail, one person working on arm and the head and another right next to him working the mouth, other arm and tongue.
AND THERE IS ONLY ONE GARY
Jabba’s two radio-controlled eyes included dilating pupils.
AND WE KNOW GARY’S EYES ARE NEVER DILATED
all funnin’ aside or whatever this was
late night boredom
WHAT CHARACTER DO YOU LIKE THE MOST?
Me, it was Spock.
oh wrong movie,
it was Darth Vader.
THE LAST ONE POSTED WRONG
how???
hmmm
a long time ago
in a galaxy far away
I like nicknames
but jabba was harsh…??? wasn’t it RTS?
plus Gary aren’t you thin? Jabba has an enormous girth like me one year ago
Jabba who is the most sexually exploited character in the film—naked the entire time…
Jabba isn’t a hero, he’s clearly a good guy trying to do right for his community. So if we look at it this way then it is a good character for Gary—
plus Gary white women love Jabba—
last I heard Jabba ate only raw veggies
BUT
Gary couldnt be Jabba
There were three puppeteers, including Philpott, inside Jabba: a little person in the tail, one person working on arm and the head and another right next to him working the mouth, other arm and tongue.
AND THERE IS ONLY ONE GARY
Jabba’s two radio-controlled eyes included dilating pupils.
AND WE KNOW GARY’S EYES ARE NEVER DILATED
all funnin’ aside or whatever this was
late night boredom
WHAT CHARACTER DO YOU LIKE THE MOST?
Me, it was Spock.
oh wrong movie,
it was Darth Vader.
Joy,
RTS made me too sad to respond to anything you said…because as usual you’re…complicated. Please keep me up to speed on Sonny’s condition on the back channel.
a long time ago
in a galaxy far away
where WHO is who getting picked on….
I like nicknames
but jabba was harsh…??? wasn’t it RTS?
plus Gary aren’t you thin? Jabba has an enormous girth like me one year ago
Jabba who is the most sexually exploited character in the film—naked the entire time…
Jabba isn’t a hero, he’s clearly a good guy trying to do right for his community. So if we look at it this way then it is a good character for Gary—
plus Gary white women love Jabba—
last I heard Jabba ate only raw veggies
BUT
Gary couldnt be Jabba
There were three puppeteers, including Philpott, inside Jabba: a little person in the tail, one person working on arm and the head and another right next to him working the mouth, other arm and tongue.
AND THERE IS ONLY ONE GARY
Jabba’s two radio-controlled eyes included dilating pupils.
AND WE KNOW GARY’S EYES ARE NEVER DILATED
all funnin’ aside or whatever this was
late night boredom
WHAT CHARACTER DO YOU LIKE THE MOST?
Me, it was Spock.
oh wrong movie,
it was Darth Vader.
Joy,
Oh…and one more thing. I agree with you that RTS was very harsh with me. He knows how fragile and vulnerable I am and I have asked him numerous times to be sweeter to me.
Please refer him to my post down below next to his challenge for the link he is requesting. Thank you.
Although I think we all got some great news today about our President’s cognitive skills and I no longer think he is going to be throwing his poop at reporters during the State of the Union Speech.
God Bless America!
https://www.amazon.com/Only-Brave-Blu-ray-Andie-McDowell/dp/B076M9MG17
buy yours today
Very cool. Thanks for the heads up. I am thinking about buying one just because I like watching a movie that shows just how great it is to be either a current or even former Hotshot…gotta love it, I guess? The movie does show how stupid we can be, not to mention arrogant (which often crosses the line into hubris) to boot, (which can be a deadly combination), but what the heck…any press is good press?
Anyway…I am seriously considering revealing another one of our dirty little secrets because you know…that’s kinda my job as a blogger here. I started it years ago but backed down and showed my belly after pushback from RTS and Bob and because of the fact I didn’t want to find out some young dumb ass WF who read what I wrote done went and got themselves kilt!
So I am thinking about writing the truth again and having one final epic on line battle with RTS and Bob who were trained on the Pollyanna Hotshots. And if someone does get kilt because of what I end up writing….please just don’t tell me about it.
I thought I had actuallly found a video of the Pollyanna Hotshots training while memorizing the 10 and 18, but then some woman showed up in a pair of running shorts and interrupted them. Sadly…it turned out to be an old commercial for Apple computers, but I will keep looking.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2zfqw8nhUwA
I also have to apologize to our President Trump…he isn’t INSANE, he just has some kind of deterioration of his mental abilities which are probably related to old age…bummer. If I am right, he is going to start throwing his poop at reporters while exposing himself and beating off life a horny monkey soon enough and then we will be able to stop arguing about what the hell is WRONG with this guy?
I am definitely going to watch the State of the Unuin Speak this year. This just keeps getting better and better as every day goes by. This is certainly a good time to be a Christian, Conservative, White person with Nordic heritage who will get to keep my large tax cuts while most of my people lose their little ones pretty soon. God Bless America!
Gary,
Allow me to offer some one/two word ques for remembering the all-important Ten Standard FF Orders:
1) WEATHER
2) OBSERVE
3) ACTIONS
4) E/R + S.Z
5) LOOKOUTS
6) RE-EVALUATE
7) COMMUNICATE
8) INSTRUCTIONS
9) CONTROL
10) FIGHT FIRE
We can work on the 19 Watch Outs at another time.
Good YouTube video clip revealing directive-style leadership and likely what your Slanted Fake HS Crew experienced under your leadership.
Thanks for sharing.
RTS,
I can’t figure out the “Slanted Fake” angle, please clarify.
I think you are finally on the right track. And if you can get the 10 down to seven letters, I think you will really have something. I have perfected my own and I got my down to remembering only ONE thing. Unfortunately, my is a lot more than seven letters, but the letters it does use, make a catchy acronym that is easy to remember.
“Don’t do stupid things.”.
Although I guess I could reverse it and make it a positive “Rule Of One.”
And I am going to drop the “hotshot” specific angle and just go with the “Wildland Firefighter Rule Of One.”
“Do smart things”
Nope…I don’t like that one. I’m sticking with, “Don’t Do Stupid Things.”
Although for the dim witted WF, maybe I should go with, to cover all of the bases.
“Don’t do stupid things, do smart things.”
Gary, it’s mo re effective to speak positively and tell people what to do instead of what not to do. So I prefer the Do Smart Things.
The Slanted Fake HS angle is payback for hour Polyanna HS angle.
I know it was payback…I just don’t get it. I know it is supposed to be insulting, I just don’t understand what the insult is?
XOXOXO
Oh…and one more thing. You have never heard of the “Hotshot Rule of One”, because I made it up. I thought you knew that and we were on the same sheet of music…for once? But alas, our synchronicity as short lived.
Okay, so if you made it up, then how am I or anyone else supposed to know what it means?
What is the “Hot Shot Rule of One?”
Geez…either you are having a real problem with comprehension or I am having a real problem communicating? Although…at this point, it has to be me because I’m pretty sure you aren’t this fucking obtuse…right?
The whole angle I was going for, until you derailed me, was all of the 28 weren’t used or even needed by any of the 43 hotshots killed (other then by individual accidents and I am tired of putting that caveat in every time, so let’s just stipulate it from now on…okay?) because they only needed to do one thing and one thing only which has never been specified except in general, vague, all inclusive terms like, building fire line downhill towards a fire shouts, “watch out dumb ass” and that is the “Hotshot (or even Wildland Firefighter) Rule of One.”
And the “Rule of One” is,
Stay out of canyons above or in front of a wild fire”, and that is where our little train left the tracks with the exact langueage, because the exact language doesn’t really matter…the point is, stay out of canyons that are either above or in front of a wild fire.
And IF that simple rule would have been followed on the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill Fires, there would never have been a hotshot killed on a fire in the entire history of hotshots. The score would be:
Hotshots X Wildfires
Wildfires 0 Hotshots
Okay thanks. I still don’t get how you came up with the “Rule of One” as a title or definition for this.
Definitely not obtuse …
And I come up with about 43 WF Rules, including the 10 & 18, LCES, Downhill Checklist, and the Common Denominators. And I actually have 19 Watch Outs to include Number 19, Death From Above.
Your welcome! And I came up with the “Rule of One” because apparently hotshots only need one rule instead of 28 of them. Stay the fuck out of fuckiin’ canyons above or in front of a fuckin’ wildfire!”
And yes…I do think all of the vulgarity IS necessary…it helps hotshots FOCUS. I am starting to think Marsh and Sad Sack might have been on to something after all.
All of the old rules might be “hillbilly.” According to my exhaustive research and clinical studies of all of the hotshots deaths in history of hotshots, they only needed to follow the “Hotshot Rule of One” C. 2018, G. Olson, and that is,”Hey stupid fucks….stay out of canyons above or in front of a wildfire…okay?”
So…I think we need to train hotshots on sound wildfire firefighting tactics and strategies and the. “Hotshot Rule of One” and call it good.
I think all of the other WF still need all 28 plus LCES AND the, “Hotshot Rule of One” becuase all of the reasons so many other WF are killed is really hard to nail down and for me to wrap my head around because there are so many other variables.
But for hotshots…it turns out it is pretty FUCKIN” SIMPLE!
Sounds like a kiss and makeup moment…glad to see that vs kiss ass…both have valid points.yet I would tell my kid also to be. mindful to.question authority if he is making me leave a safe area. Its like this you know its wrong …kinda like folks who cross to have affairs in life…sometimes you can do it ans make it but sometimes you can get burned so its better to not even think about sis is than to take that kind of risk. My way of thinking…
Or how ever many WF rules you come up with. There were only 28 back in my day and frankly, I gave up after seven of them. And not seven rules…seven words! It was the same principle as remembering my telephone number.
Did I ever tell you how I made squad boss? No? I was the First Pulaski on Squad One and it was at the beginning of the year and we were cutting fire line for “time” with the crew boss using a stop watch, although now that I look back on it, we were starting in the middle of nowhere in the forest and cutting fire line to the middle of nowhere, so what was the stop watch for?
Anyway….I got excited and shattered the handle of my Pulaski and I felt stupid just standing there so I picked up the Pulaski head that still had about 18 inches of broken handle on it and kept cutting line.
The crew boss made me the new squad boss on the spot. He never even asked me how many of those stupid hillbilly rules I could recite like a robotic clone who learned them by rote.
He just made sure I knew about how to fight wildfire using sound tactics and strategies and the ability to make spit second decisions faster and better than Deep Blue instantly calculating an unimaginable number of variables and possible outcomes on the run which was helped because I have adult ADHD and my people were hunters and warriors going back eons just as yours were. We are all predators, you can tell because our eyes are in the front of our heads.
Here is something for you to think about IF you can open your mind to the possibility that your way might not be the best way.
No other industry that I know of that is inherently dangerous has a lists of rules that everybody has to learn by rote. They teach sound tactics and strategies instead.
They say, and don’t ask me how the they added these up except they do have a lot of people they need to keep busy at FLETC, but they say they teach every new cadet more than 1000 new individual things during basic training.
So…let’s take a LE vehicle stop because I don’t know any other inherently dangerous things other people do on a daily basis and make those into Written Rules. And this is off the top of my head and I’m not putting a lot of thought into them, so…I probably left some things off the list.
Action….Routine Vehicle Traffic Stop Rules (after observing a traffic violation)
1. Follow vehicle for a period of time to observe them.
2. Call in their license plate to dispatch for a 28/29, Wait for response.
3. Jot down the license plate and other facts like vehicle type and color etc.
4. Activate lights in a tactically favorable and safe area if possible. Observe reaction of vehicle occupants.
5. Stop patrol vehicle safe distance behind suspect vehicle. Turn wheels toward traffic. Continually observe suspect vehicle. Radio dispatch you are exiting patrol vehicle.
6. Walk to the shoulder of the road and approach vehicle on the passenger side with flashlight etc. in non gun hand.
7. Check trunk to make sure the it is fastened down, the back of a truck bed and the rear seat for hidden or previously unseen occupants..
8. Position yourself to the slightly to the rear while assuming a Field Interrogation/Modified Weaver combat stance.
9. Introduce yourself to the vehicle occupants and tell them the reason for the stop as you ask them for their drivers license, registration and insurance papers.
10. Etc…etc…etc, so on and so forth and when you are done, be sure and tell them to, “Have a Nice Day!”
Or maybe we should just teach our police officers to do those things and a whole bunch of other things automatically without thinking about them like watch traffic and everything else that is going on around them all at the same time without even thinking about it because we taught them sound police tactics and strategies at the police academy with constant reinforcement at in-service, on the job training and certification procedures with Field Training Officers.
In other words, maybe we should train and treat them and our wildland firefighters like they are highly trained adults instead of robotic, mindless clones who learned countless written rules because somebody in the USFS Chiefs Office thought that was a good idea as a knee jerk reaction in 1957 and we have been adding to the list ever since? Just askin’?
Here is where my old work videos are posted on my YouTube channel I made because I was bored.
https://www.youtube.com/user/DeadEndPSA
Watch what this BLM Ranger does at the end of this video…do you think he is thinking about those 10 rules or any other rules? Or do you think he is following his training without even thinking about it?
His field tactics are FLAWLESS. I wasn’t in the vehicle,he was alone and the footage is from his dash camera.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4WvosIq7a0
This is how every hotshot should do everything…without THINKING about it. All actions should be automatic because of extensive and outstanding training with constant repetition.
As I have written before…wildland firefighter training is decades behind law enforcement training…and the field results show.
Oh…and one more thing. The REASON wildland firefighter training is DECADES behind law enforcement training is because YOU PEOPLE (tax payers) put a lot of MONEY into law enforcement training and you don’t put hardly ANY MONEY into wildland firefighter training.
Almost ALL training materials are DECADES old and hopelessly outdated and frankly….most of it is a sad JOKE!
And to make matters even worse, wildland firefighting managers abdicated what little responsibility they did take for wildland firefighitnt training at one time and turned it over to either “for profit” or “non profit” ad hoc outfits. Some of which are okay and others aren’t okay.
And in any case, they are all using materials and teaching techniques that were developed several decades ago and haven’t been updated since.
I paid almost one thousand dollars for Eric Marsh and Company to train my son with the very same training the USFS gave me back in the mid 1970’s for God’s Sake!
Do you really want to know what the problem is? CAN YOU HANDLE THE TRUTH?
You fucking (FOCUS) people are the fucking problem! FIX IT!
In other words, maybe we should train and treat them and our wildland firefighters like they are highly trained adults using the limited (43 WF Rules) written rules because the USFS Chief’s Office thought that was a good idea in 1957. We have added to the list only a few times.
They work, every single time!
Memorize them, understand what they mean, mitigate the Watch Outs as you encounter them, and safely fight fire.
Pretty simple.
You are standing too close to the elephant to even see what the problem is. In other words, you are the problem…so you can’t be the solution.
If I were doing a PowerPoint presentation I would make a Venn Diagram for you and then you might be able to see the problem. Or…you could just take a few steps back and realize you what you are looking is an elephant.
Nahhhh….fuhgettaboutit, you have been hopelessly institutionalized my old friend.
Gary,
I can clearly see what is going on and definitely have the Big Picture. and definitely NOT hopelessly institutionalized.
I have been and continue to be confidently and thankfully blessed by The Good Lord by following the WF Rules that work, every single time!
Memorize them, understand what they mean, mitigate the Watch Outs as you encounter them, and safely fight fire.
It’s really very simple and very effective.
Name or show me ONE fire where the WF Rules were followed and someone was burned over, Fire sheltered up, or died from a wildfire.
There are NONE!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj60OAh7O5U
Too many rules have been written, and following tragedy, added TO, that not only has made it more difficult to keep them all straight, an argument can be made that all they do is effectively help protect management from liability. At a certain point there are so many rules it’s becomes harder & harder not to ever ‘bend’ one….even just a little.
Did LCES, while formulated by Mr. Gleason so many years ago to exactly address the issue of too many rules to keep straight, contribute to the death of the GMIHC? They employed a lookout (check the box) …and almost killed him. Instead of staying in a safety zone they travelled what the bossman perceived as the best escape route to their PRE-DETERMINED ‘bomb-proof’ safety zone. In their minds were they following the rules that day of LCES? Probably. But they failed the most basic rule: Don’t Do Stupid Shit.
In order to grasp what Gary is saying it will take a very flexible open mind IMHO.
And…since we know GMIHCs decisions were not made in a vaccum that day or any other day, we can seek out both the internal & external factors that led to the outcome. Robots who can memorize safety rules isn’t good enough. Freethinkers who are not afraid to stand up to management & follow the most basic rule of all, is what’s required.
Woodman,
I disagree that too many rules have been written, and following tragedy, added TO, that not only has made it more difficult to keep them all straight,
There were NO rules added TO for quite some time now. And LCES was basically a mere simplification of the Fire Orders.
I also disagree that the WF Rules are designed to protect management. On the contrary, these are designed to protect the WF.
You posted that the GMHS “… travelled what the bossman perceived as the best escape route to their PRE-DETERMINED ‘bomb-proof’ safety zone.”
I have always had several problems with this one. First, they were IN a perfectly good Safety Zone. Second, you utilize an Escape Route to get FROM danger TO safety, so the GMHS totally perverted the meaning and spirit of the viable and specific term Escape Route.
Third, abandoning their perfectly good SZ and traveling to the predetermined BSR Safety Zone was the gist of the ‘discussing our options’ argument between Steed and Marsh.
Fourth, the “.Robots who can memorize safety rules isn’t good enough. Freethinkers who are not afraid to stand up to management & follow the most basic rule of all, is what’s required.”
I’m in total agreement here and this is the.basis of the Participatory leadership style. Unfortunately, Marsh succeeded in threatening his Crew with his authoritarian directive leadership style and they the entire GMHS buckled and went to their deaths.
In other words, the GMHS were doing just what you posted, acting like robots, and not thinking about what they were doing and the eventual likely outcome.
Gary, the Cool Hand Luke video clip fits you perfectly. You clearly identify with the prison warden …
Gary, here’s a couple in depth analyses of the whole Cool Hand Luke and authoritarian prison warden and his “What we have here is a failure to communicate”
I know that you identify with the prison warden, so they may be too in depth for you though, so heads up …, do your best if you can handle it
The Laws of God, The Laws of Man: Power, Authority, and Influence in ‘‘Cool Hand Luke’’ Univ of Puget Sound
https://www.pugetsound.edu/faculty-pages/haltom/cool-hand-luke/
Film as Art and Psychology: Cool Hand Like as Exemplar by Frank Barron
https://www.northernhighlands.org/cms/lib5/NJ01000179/Centricity/Domain/115/CHL%20Art%20Psychology.pdf
RTS,
Well, the current situation is clearly not working very well. Why? Iverson had a lookout, right? He was told ‘we’ve got eyes on you.’ So the communication check-box is good….Nome sayin?
Let me ask you something. In your words. What is the most important rule of wildland firefighting? And you can’t answer that it’s to follow all of the rules all of the time, that doesn’t cut it. If you had a crew of 18-23 year olds to take care of on a fire crew & you know they would only remember one thing under any kind a stress possible, what would you want that to be?
You must understand that I’ve been screwed by management in the past so I’m predisposed to distrust in that area. I don’t believe that rules should be thrown out or they are not valuable, I just want it all boiled down to one simple concept that anyone from a seasoned firefighter to a rookie can easily understand and abide by not matter the situation and stress involved.
Thanks
Woodsman,
Iverson’s CDF “Lookout(s)” – in my professional opinion, contributed to his demise and added to his inexplicable continued travel downslope, chasing spots,in the unburned, etc, etc, etc …by likely encouraging him to keep going. All they ever told him was they “have eyes” on him and never warned him about anything so just keep on going deeper into the s**t! The underlying message the Lookout(s) gave him was keep going.
What is the most important rule of wildland firefighting?
Tough one because the WF Rules work so well when you use them properly.
Probably take care of yourself and those you supervise and are responsible for by safely applying good sense and tactics.
Welcome to The Club My Friend. I’ve been screwed by management in the past so many times that I too am predisposed to distrust them. That’s why i depend on doing the difficult right thing to the best of my ability
I too believe that good, solid, viable rules should be maintained when valuable – as all the WF Rules are!
This is about as boiled down to one simple concept that anyone from a seasoned firefighter to a rookie can easily understand and abide by not matter the situation and stress involved, as I can get.
Dear Captain Obvious,
What we have here is a failure to communicate is just a Pop Culture reference to the difference between you and me.
That and the fact that can admit I am a Dickhead whereas you fancy yourself as a sanctimonious Richard Cranium, which you are… congratulations Dickhead.
The Woodsman summed up what I was trying to say very nicely just as Dr. Ted Putnam does here,
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/…/fire_safety_up_in_smoke.pdf
You on the other hand, delight in being obtuse in your mistaken belief that denial is just a river in Egypt rather than a summation of your slavish devotion to the obvious.
And whether it is working in a meat packing plant, a mine, law enforcement, a construction site or a convenience store, if you make a rule for everything that can possibly go wrong or ever has gone wrong that has lead to a fatality or a serious injury doesn’t make you an expert on workplace safety, it makes you Captain Obvious.
It’s just that I choose to acknowledge that fact by summing up all of those, “rules and guidelines” by stating the obvious…”Don’t do stupid things.” And even more specifically for hotshots, “Stay out of canyons in front of or above a wildfire.”
Although violating that rule isn’t what killed any of those 43 hotshots, what killed all of those hotshots is the very same thing that is going to kill the next 43 hotshots at some point and that is…”Hotshot Crew Boss Hubris.”
That is after, what killed the Granite Mountain Hotshots on the Yarnell Hill Fire…Eric Marsh’s hubris and Darrell Willis’ and many others criminal negligence culpability, conspiracy and COLLUSION in putting that career fuck up in charge of a hotshot crew.
Nothing would have saved the GMIHC from themselves on the Yarnell Hill Fire. Captain Jesse Steed tried three (3) times but he was overruled three (3) times by Division Alpha Marsh.
And once again, I was using hyperbole to make a point, I did more than learn seven letters of the rules, I learned the only one anyone needs in addition to knowing and correctly applying professional standards of wildland firefighting techniques, tactics and strategies and that is…”Fight fire aggressively but provide for safety first.”
Although my second favorite has always been, “You feel like taking a nap near the fire line…Duhhhhhhh.” I am however thinking about adding one more…”Don’t roast wieners or marshmallows in your backfire unless you have really long sticks” just for you…Captain Obvious.
Woodsman,
Another one might be:
Do your inherently dangerous job of wildland firefighting safely and to the best of your ability.
Well…that link doesn’t seem to work so just type, Dr. Ted Putnam and some other identifiers like U.S. Forest Service into any search engine and “Up In Smoke” and all of his other white papers and related articles show up.
Gary, I get it, i really do. I was the one that posted Dr. Putnam’s ‘Up In Smoke’ paper. I talk with him on a regular basis about this stuff.
I too admit to being Richard Crranium, however, I feel that it’s you that fancies yourself as a sanctimonious Dickhead, so congratulations Dickhead.
It’s okay to disagree and have a different point of view
Captain Obvious,
Thank you Captain Obvious.
RTS,
Yes, we both know the effect Iverson most likely felt from being assured that ‘we have eyes on you.’ But how many out there believe if they just check the box they’ll be fine. Lookout: check. Communications: check. Escape route: just run back the way you came: check. Safety zone: this 20’x30′ clearing looks good enough: check.
You know it, I know it but how many new young folks know it? That’s the problem. What’s obvious to us is not across the board to others. It’s a failure of training & breaking it down into what will provide results under stress each time, every time across the wf community.
Thanks for not taking the easy way out in answering the question. It is a lot to think about, isn’t it?
Oh and one more thing.
I hate to sink to your level Captain, but if anyone wants to put the research into it, I am sure they will find that I was the first one to post any of Dr, Putnam papers here including “Up In Smoke.”
And as you know, I have frequently talked to Ted several times over the past few years while we worked together on an analysis of the “ Battlement Creek Fire”.
So…nana nana poo poo to you.
Woodsman,
How about this compound sentence:
Perform your inherently dangerous wildland firefighting tasks to the best of your ability, monitoring the weather, after observing the fire, to make your best estimates of current and expected fire behavior, while posting lookouts and providing escape routes and safety zones, after re-evaluating those choices, while clearly communicating these intentions, controlling your forces, while aggressively and safely fighting fire..
Now you’re just being silly. Still needs a lot more boiling down. You’re going the wrong way, man! You should stop worrying about leaving something out (institutionalized knowledge) but instead be certain to include what’s most important…… & the key is that it has to be reliable under stress for all wf.
Gary,
How about you putting the research into it since you are so sure you will find that you were the first one to post any of Dr, Putnam papers here including “Up In Smoke..”
Gentleman’s bet. I say I posted it before you.
“So…nana nana poo poo to you.”
REALLY?! That’s the best you can do? A man that supposedly was a Federal LE Officer that carried a gun and arrested people?
Pretty friggin’ immature and childish and then some …
Woodsman,
You MUST include basic things like weather and communication and more. There is no other way
That’s not the best I can do, but it is better than you deserve.
Oh…and you’re on. I just don’t trust you to do the research, so WTKTT would have to do it. And I don’t know if he has as much time to waste on you as I do?
Gary,
Here’s ahead start for you, so see if you can do any better to prove your point.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/#comment-4941
I misspoke. Hotshot hubris killed the last 34 Hotshots. IC incompetence killed the 9 Hotshots on the South Canyon Fire.
RTS,
I’ll see your bet and call,
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-the-granite-mountain-hotshots-never-shouldve-been-deployed-mounting-evidence-shows-2/#comment-1957
There are so many great adjectives to describe how wonderful it is to be me in this day and age of Trump White Nationalist Bigotry I forgot some important ones such as Straight, Male and really sweet…covered by Federal Blue Cross/Blue Shield insurance plan my former employer stills pays three quarters of the cost of.
So I don’t even really notice health insurance cost increases. Now, most of you either couldn’t or didn’t want to do what I did to earn my retirement package because we all started at the same place, more or less and you choose other paths.
But still….it’s pretty sweet and when the rest of my people get kicked out of the state exchanges and lose their government safety net, it will just be too bad for THEM PEOPLE because elections have consequences and THOSE PEOPLE chose …poorly (Indiana Jones – Templar Knight quote).
I don’t even have to tell anyone I have an affinity for Mormons so people like that bigot Reverend Franklin Gramhan and most of the Fundalmentalist Charissmatic Christian Leaders won’t discriminate against me because the obvious racial terms to describe my people originally where “Sqaureheads” and thought we were extra dumb. But compared to most, I mean really….how hurtful are those things anyway? And we have even lived those down, I mean…I don’t even remember the last time somebody called me a Squarehead to hurt my feelings.
And besides that, my President and I even come from the same gene poool originally, I mean Scandinavia people where extra restless immigrants from Northern Germanic Tribes, so…we’re good! Most of the rest of you people…are fucked!
But still…my years with my beloved U.S. Forest Service (FIIRE) where dominated by those who were non white people. They were Hispanics and Native Americans and they treated me as one of their own.
So…I got to stand up for them when that stupid man who is masquerading as the President of the United States spews his racist, bigoted, disgusting rants.
And I can appreciate recent immigrants because they pick the fruits and vegetables I eat, clean the hotel rooms I stay in, do my yard work (I hate to mow a lawn, can’t stand the two cycle exhaust anymore or particulates in my throat) and build most of the houses I have lived in and have cooked the food I have eaten out and cleaned my dirty dishes because Americans just don’t want to do that kind of work…including me and my kids.
Gary, how about the Slacker Fe HS instead?
OK…now that one I get…thank you so much.
XOXOXO
Yep…things are really looking up for my people. I think this chain migration thing could really work out for the Nordic people. I would like to sponsor some family members, but I can’t find any who want to move here.
I mean…like, Denmark is the happiest country in the world, nobody from Sweden wants to move here IKEA, Saab, and Husquvarna have full employment and they ask some people on the street in Norway if they wanted to come here, they just laughed and walked away. WTF…OVER?
I am going to put some feelers out in Iceland, but don’t get your hopes up. Maybe we can get some vitamin D deficient people from Greenland….nobody in their right mind wants to live there…am I right?
Historically….I think realistically we only have one real shot at getting some Nordic types to move here. We are going to have to look to Finland. But…I don’t think even the Finns (and we know how THOSE PEOPLE are) are going to come here and pick fruit or harvest vegetables, clean our motel rooms, wash our dishes in restaurants,or clean our office buildings, or cut my damn grass! Maybe they will work in our coal mines….but we don’t have any openings there.
I wonder if we can get some of those forgotten, poorly educated, low paid blue collar hillbilly redneck crackers from those Red states who voted that reality TV actor to deconstruct the damn country to come do my damn yard work? Fuck me! What am I going to do now, this ain’t funny no more?
Oh yeah….and just try to get a job at Volvo and see how far you get!
Now this…is funny. I know this is going to surprise you, as my closest friends and confidants, but I do watch Morning Joe and they do a drop dead perfect Mika and Joe. Check it out.!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mZXNqic_Zi8
Whoops.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AiyZ92_JZxA
Especially Mika…I have to admit…I think she is kinda hot the way she always sucks on her Starbucks straw ans squirms in her seat, but she kinda looks Nordic so it’s not my fault, its hereditary.
Oh…and one more thing. I have watched some specials on Iceland. The women there are all HOT…and it a sex free for all. You what I mean…Dean.? The men ain’t cumin’…here!
Thomas Fire Fatality on December 14, 2017
CDF Green Sheet
The Wildland Fire lessons Learned Center LLC would not post, so just go to the LLC website for it
17-CA-VNC-103156 California Southern Region
SUMMARY
On December 13, 2017, a CAL FIRE Engine Strike Team (STEN1), with a leader
(STL1) from the San Diego Unit (MVU) was assigned to Branch III, Division X of the
Thomas Fire above the community of Fillmore in Ventura County, California. On the
morning of December 14, 2017, a Fire Apparatus Engineer (FAE1)and four Fire Fighter I’s (FF1, FF2, FF3 and FF4) from STEN1 were engaged in the placement of a hoselay in support of a dozer line with fire established above the line. At approximately 9:27 AM, while attempting to suppress spot fires below he dozer line, FAE1became entrapped and suffered fatal injuries. The four firefighters on the dozer line retreated up their escape route without injury.
INCIDENTAL ISSUES/LESSONS LEARNED
Steep terrain, hazardous weather (erratic winds,record low RH, red flag warnings) and heavy fuel loading made access difficult and fire behavior extreme. The Fuels and Fire Behavior Advisory
for the Southern California Geographic Area Coordination Center, dated December 15, 2017, states
“Fire behavior that has been observed on the Thomas Fire as well as some of the other recent fires,
has been extreme. Fires are actively backing downhill and into the wind, in both the fine dead fuels, as well as the heavier chaparral. The 100-hour dead fuel moisture is normally in the mid-teens, but values of around 2% have been commonly observed. Fires have exhibited extremely high resistance to control, and retardant in many cases has been proven to be ineffective. (This is a testament to the
terrain, fuels and fire conditions FAE1 faced, on the morning of December 14, 2017.)
A regular review of the Foundations of Safety for Wildland Firefighting is warranted. The Standard Orders and Watch Out Situations were developed in 1957 after fires cost firefighter lives. The Common Denominators were published in 1978after careful analysis of previous fatal fires.
One spot along the dozer line was safe enough to pick up. When there were spot fire(s) that
prevented safe travel back to the dozer line, a re-evaluation should have taken place.A change in he current or expected fire behavior,that changes tactics, requires a tactical pause and re-evaluation of he situation.“Is the plan still good,with viable identified escape routes?”
“And what is the risk versus gain?” Provide for Safety First,so we can “Fight Fire Aggressively”.
Please GTS the WF LLC and Incident Reviews of even the Thomas Fire Green Sheet.
Classic Sundowner / Santa Ana winds, aggressive downslope / downhill fire behavior, increased spotting, decreasing and local winds prevailed, high nighttime temperatures followed by warms days, very low RH values, high Energy Release Component (ERC) values, decadent and thick chaparral, the WF running into the unburned fuel into a drainage, and died. He did not attempt to use his fire shelter.
The color photos included in the report are fairly revealing.
Classic Rattle Snake Fire 1953 similar sun downer winds. Ran down hill overtaken by the fire. We have trained and trained on these fires in northern Ca.. Yet here we are again. 4 went to the black I guess he headed for the orchard?
And I guess this was the worst I have been expecting. And since I don’t have any deep appreciation or understanding for how complex the world of wildland firefighting has become, I probably should keep my opinion to myself, but then I would be betraying my values as a blogger on this thread, so I am going to give it anyway.
And here it is, “WTF…Over?”
I am just not used to having only one firefighter dead, I think there either should have been more dead, which would have made this tragedy all that much worse multiplied by the number of additional fatalities, or none at all which would have made this a close call instead of a catastrophe.
The only time I know of a single WF being killed (as I wrote downstream) was on the Buchanan Fire that had been the Buchanan Prescribed Burn before it went to hell in a hand basket and on the Ship Island Creek Fire.
On the Buchanan Fire, a single WF from a Type II crew left her crew without telling anyone where she was going (which was probably to relieve herself) and therefore was alone when the fire blew up and out.
On the Ship Island Creek Fire, there were actually two overhead together in a saddle on a ridge when the fire blew up and out and they were burned over in fire shelters so the man who died wasn’t even alone. I have some photos of the ridge and saddle I will post later for those who may be interested in seeing what the fatality area looked like.
So…here is what I would be looking for in an investigation. Why was this man alone and where did his training (and that of the other four WF) fail him? In other words, I don’t believe this incident wasn’t an accident, I think it was probably a screw up.
Oh…and one more thing. As I have written before, I think wildland firefighters are like grapes, they should come in bunches…in life and death or serious injury. No wildland firefighter should ever find themselves alone on a wildfire.
Whoops,
“I don’t believe this incident WAS an accident, I think it was probably a screw up.”
I usually do proof read my posts, I just miss a lot of mistakes.
Red flag warming. Fuelscand fire advisory but no heightened sense of awareness, tried to action spot fire by himself?
WTF ?
over
??
I agree completely.
WTF!?
Classic Sundowner / Santa Ana winds, aggressive downslope / downhill fire behavior, increased spotting, decreasing and local winds prevailed with decreasing Sundowners, high nighttime temperatures followed by warms days, very low RH values, high Energy Release Component (ERC) values, very early morning aggressive fire behavior decadent and thick chaparral, the WF running into the unburned fuel into a drainage, chasing multiple spot fires alone, and died. He did not attempt to use his fire shelter.
Classic CDF. Fight fire and ignore all the cues, W/O’s, indicators, warnings, and everything else, until you get burned over.
Here is a link for the classic Carl C. Wilson research paper titled: “Fatal and Near-Fatal Forest Fires – The Common Denominators” (1977).
http://wildfiretoday.com/documents/CommonDenominatorsCarlWilson_1977.pdf
Please note the Southern CA fires in Table 1, right off the bat has the 1971 Romero Fire on the Los Padres NF and strong Sundowner winds pushing the fire downslope.
Note also the fires where the Santa Ana winds either strengthened or weakened and the local winds prevailed – just like on the 2017 Thomas Fire
Gary,
The Buchanan RX Burn went awry due to aerial ignition into the Ponderosa Pine timber pockets below the WF resulting in what I refer to as aerial induced fire behavior because it cannot be replicated by hand. The intensity of the intense run was so strong that it burned the boots off the WF’s feet.
On the Ship Island Fire, a DIVS and a Safety Officer stayed on the helispot and considered it a Safety Zone even after piling all the gear and equipment on the helispot into the center. These stacked items included flammables, nylons, etc.
Supposedly, they had told all the Crews to leave the area and seek safety elsewhere while they stayed and ultimately deployed fire shelters on the helispot-considered-Safety-Zone.
Obviously, the flammables burned very intensely and one of the Overhead had no gloves or wore no gloves and was unable to move around and away from the additional heat sources and ultimately burned to death. The other Overhead had and wore his gloves and safely accomplished the heat avoidance.
We worked for this fella on a fire years later and he was still pretty gun-shy and messed up from the incident.
You were there and I wasn’t so you experienced it first hand …
I look forward to seeing your photos
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 8, 2018 at 4:54 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Thomas Fire Fatality on December 14, 2017
>> CDF Green Sheet
>> The Wildland Fire lessons Learned Center LLC would not post,
>> so just go to the LLC website for it
>>
>> 17-CA-VNC-103156 California Southern Region
Thank you.
Here is a link to the page for the Thomas Fire Entrapment FATALITY that contains this latest report along with all the other related documents that have been published ( so far )…
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
A lesson is learned when we CHANGE OUR BEHAVIOR
Thomas Fire Entrapment Fatality( 2017 )
Incident Date: 12/14/2017
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=eae947bb-4440-472b-9e38-cd825563e0a5
And here is a direct link to the newly published ‘Green Sheet’ document…
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=8d7098f8-eafc-90bc-7d79-fd70cdf246fa&forceDialog=0
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The color photos included in the report are fairly revealing.
Yes. They are.
According to the photos… the actual location where Cory Iverson died is…
Decimal Latitude: 34.436277
Decimal Longitude: -118.957608
If you ‘cut and paste’ the following line ( including the comma ) into the Search Bar of either Google Earth or Google Maps… you will get a ‘red balloon’ right on the spot where his body was found ( at the bottom of that ‘gulch’ )…
34.436277, -118.957608
The report DOES mention what has already been reported about Cory Iverson having been in the 25th hour of a 24 hour long work shift when he died.
He and his engine crew had been working 24-hour-on / 24-hours-off shifts on the Thomas Fire since December 5, 2017… until his death 9 days later on December 14.
On the morning he died… Iverson had already completed another 24-hour shift but was then asked to ‘stay on the line’ to do a hoselay for a dozer line.
What’s really painful to read in this report is how LONG it took from the moment Iverson knew he was in deep trouble to when he actually died… how CLOSE he was to safety that whole time… and that many people were just WATCHING him desperately try to make it to safety.
From the report’s own ‘timeline’…
9:10 AM – Iverson leaves the dozer line he was standing on ( alone ) with only his ‘scrapiing tool’ to attack a spot fire that was ( supposedly ) just a mere 20 feet off the dozer line.
9:15 AM – The spot fire erupts and Iverson is cut off from the dozer line. He heads southwest, parallel to dozer line and through the green trying to get to safety.
9:20 AM – Iverson himself calls for ‘Air Support’ on the TAC channel.
9:25 AM – FC1 is now telling Iverson ( on the TAC channel ) to “Get out of there”.
9:27 AM – FC1 declares a MAYDAY on the TAC channel… “MAYDAY – Firefighter DOWN”.
9:27 AM – FC1 immediately clarfies his MAYDAY with… “MAYDAY – Firefighter TRAPPED”.
9:28 AM – Three helicopters ( Copter 1 and 2 CWN choppers ) all report actually seeing Iverson still retreating dowslope through the green trying to make it to safety.
9:30 AM – FC1 can also see Iverson this whole time, and now reports seeing him FALL and then loses sight of him. Copter 1 also sees Iverson FALL… but also reports then seeing Iverson get back up and continue running downslope. This was the last known ‘visual sighting’ of Iverson.
9:40 AM – The approximate time of death for Cory Iverson at the bottom of a gulch.
So from 9:15 AM through ( approximately ) 9:40 AM ( a full 25 minutes ) Cory Iverson was ‘trapped’ and ‘on the run’ through the green and just trying to make it to safety.
And for most of that time ( at least 15 minutes ) he could be SEEN by other firefighters and helicopter pilots desperately running through the green and trying to make it to safety.
He died of burns and smoke inhalation… and made no attempt to deploy his fire shelter.
Followup…
Here is where it was originally reported ( by a CALFIRE Fire Chief ) that Cory Iverson had already completed a full 24 hour work shift before he was asked to stay on the line and keep working the morning he died…
KPCC 89.3 RADIO – SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
Article Title: Friends, family celebrate the life of firefighter Cory Iverson
Published: December 23, 2017 – By Brianna Flores
https://www.scpr.org/news/2017/12/23/79239/cory-iverson-funeral-celebrate-thomas-fire-friends/
From the article…
——————————————————————————————-
Family, friends and colleagues gathered Saturday morning to celebrate the life of San Diego Cal Fire engineer Cory Iverson.
The 32-year-old firefighter died in the line of duty on Thursday, December 14 while battling the Thomas Fire.
San Diego Cal Fire Chief Tony Mecham said Iverson and his strike team were finishing up a 24-hour shift and were scheduled to be taken off the fire line. But the team was asked to continue working when the fire began to threaten the city of Fillmore.</b?
An autopsy found Iverson died from burns and smoke inhalation. Officials previously said he died after some sort of accident but they have not released additional details. A serious accident investigation team is looking into Iverson's death.
—————————————————————————————–
WTKTT,
And thanks for posting the Wildland Fire LLC link … once AGAIN
And how about one or more of his fellow WF telling him repeatedly that he “had eyes on him.”
What good did that do, except maybe encourage him to keep going.
He supposedly spent several years on a reputable Southern CA HS Crew, so that even makes the whole incident even more mind boggling. WTF?
This is a recent (January 7th) Wildfire Today post on tracking devices titled: “Field tests of tracking devices for firefighters.”
http://wildfiretoday.com/2018/01/07/field-tests-of-tracking-devices-for-firefighters/#comments
Read the comment from Aloysious calling BS on the whole thing.
And I guess this was the worst I have been expecting. And since I don’t have any deep appreciation or understanding for how complex the world of wildland firefighting has become, I probably should keep my opinion to myself, but then I would be betraying my values as a blogger on this thread, so I am going to give it anyway.
And here it is, “WTF…Over?”
I am just not used to having only one firefighter dead, I think there either should have been more dead, which would have made this tragedy all that much worse multiplied by the number of additional fatalities, or none at all which would have made this a close call instead of a catastrophe.
The only time I know of a single WF being killed (as I wrote downstream) was on the Buchanan Fire that had been the Buchanan Prescribed Burn before it went to hell in a hand basket and on the Ship Island Creek Fire.
On the Buchanan Fire, a single WF from a Type II crew left her crew without telling anyone where she was going (which was probably to relieve herself) and therefore was alone when the fire blew up and out.
On the Ship Island Creek Fire, there were actually two overhead together in a saddle on a ridge when the fire blew up and out and they were burned over in fire shelters so the man who died wasn’t even alone. I have some photos of the ridge and saddle I will post later for those who may be interested in seeing what the fatality area looked like.
So…here is what I would be looking for in an investigation. Why was this man alone and where did his training (and that of the other four WF) fail him? In other words, I don’t believe this incident wasn’t an accident, I think it was probably a screw up.
Great, my copy and paste didn’t work this time so now I have to retype my entire response.
Yeah…well, I think both you and Aloysious are dead wrong. In this day and age with the widespread availability and low cost of GPS tracking devices. every wildland firefighter should be wearing one on large complex fire.
When the Special Forces soldier was killed in Africa, it still took two days to find his body a significant distance from where they apparently thought it should have been and it sounded to me like the bad guys found him first, which would have been as bad as it sounds and he was wearing a body tracking device.
The only people who would think it is a bad idea for WF to wear GPS tracking devices in this century are either Luddites or shirkers. just sayin….
Gee…what if the some of the Granite Mountain Hotshots would have just been seriously injured as one hotshot who lived on the Battlement Creek Fire was? Don’t you think it would have been a good idea to be able to find them sooner rather than later which would have been serendipitous rather than just plain dumb luck for what very well could have been life saving measures to be taken?
Oh…and one more thing. As we have discussed on this thread many times, most if not all large complex wildfires are potentially dangerous and always dynamic events for at least the first 36 to 48 hours and sometimes for the entire duration the wildfire is out of control. They are always kinda serious and potentially deadly versions of Abbott & Costello”s, “Who’s On First” comedy routine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg
I think having GPS tracking devices on wildland firefighters, especially those who are the tip of the spear (to borrow a military term) is as much of a no-brainier as having a standardized emergency call, which is just INSANE things haven’t progressed in that area since back in the day.
I was after all, with a hotshot crew who was inserted by helicopter into a remote sector of a large BLM desert wildfire and then forgotten about for a couple of days until a returning supply helicopter flew over the ridge were we on and landed to ask us who we were? I didn’t know they had lost us until that happened, but I was glad they found us when they did…accidentally.
I will post some photos of that area as well for anyone who doesn’t know what a large complex wildfire usually looks like in the Sonoran and Mohave Deserts (this particular fire was in the Mohave Desert). When I post those photos, ask yourself the following question, “If I were lost out there for a couple of days or maybe even longer in high daytime temperatures without any water, would I like to be wearing a GPS tracking device…or not?”
I can also think of a lot of really good reasons, strategic planning options and logistical benefits to having GPS locators on some if not all resources on a campaign fire in addition to the obvious tactical and safety reasons.
The only people I may not put them on would be Type II crews, but I would have them on their Crew Liaison Officers and crew bosses at a minimum. And I am certainly including all overhead, engines and their crews in the “minimum mandatory” mix.
Or better yet, here is the updated version of the skit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0Jg7pvVzKk
Real time beacons do no goid when wff have their heads up their assets.
Teach them fire behaviour and awareness not relying on big brother techno crap
Gary, since these writers think I’m the town drunk maybe they would send me some money to buy more booze with.
I only have had 3 Guinness Stout in the last couple weeks.
One today that I didn’t quite finish cuz I was having this pain.
So I bought two six packs and I might spread them out for the month and then again I might drink the bastards all at once just for the hell of it.
It’s great to be a f****** drunk and be written up that way in the books motherfuckers want to say.
Yeah if they can ruin your reputation well enough then your words don’t mean s***. and in Joy’s case they tried a lot of s*** but it ain’t working worth a tinker’s damn.
The sad part of this is that Joy and I witnessed the situation of that day.
Once that fire exploded at about 11:30 there was absolutely no reason to have men on the line.
It was a situation once that fire hit that dry Manzanita that we were watching 50 to 100 foot flames and even longer flames laying down nearly parallel to the ground as that fire moved toward Peeples Valley and by 12:30pm up the Harper Canyon Hill.
Everyone had to know that was looking at the situation that if the wind changed and you happened to be flanking the fire your life would be snuffed in a few seconds or whatever time it takes to burn you to death which might be minutes if you’re in one what Gary Olson calls turkey roasters, but what Forest Service wants you to call Fire Protection blankets or something of the order.
Of course all the writers and so forth that know so much about firefighting have skirted the issues that caused these deaths. They have label me a common drunk and and Joy they have worked every angle to shut her up.
But the facts are that we actually fought our way through that very brush they dropped into early morning as we were headed up to the fire Edge that was in the rocks on top of the mountain. And I mean almost within 10 feet if not right on top of where they died later in that day. And in that very area brush we were having to get on our bellies many times to get through the brush.
We were often finding ourselves working like in a labyrinth where we were having to backtrack and find another way to get through the brush.
There was so much old dead growth among the green that you add all kinds of problems trying to penetrate that stuff.
The hours it took for us to get through it we’re quite exhausting. There was no possible way to run in that stuff and been a logger for some time myself, I can tell you a chainsaw is not much help at all in situations like that. I called those places bear wallows because you can see where bears and other wildlife have had to wallow through it.
But the truth is photos are worth a thousand words in this case. Joy took over 1500 photos that day but did you know the forest boss wasn’t too anxious to get them when we offered to turn them in.
It seems they’re not too anxious to know anything but what they want to say.
You have over 1000 years of experience speaking on investigative media buy some of the finest Minds working to expose the truth here.
Most of these people are involved in firefighting and many of them have Beyond 20 years experience in running Crews as well as those on the line experience.
Everyone here in this site agrees that there were gross errors made that caused the demise of those young men.
Careless bosses we’re top of the list for the reason they died.
Good God you don’t want your son or daughter working for someone that would risk their lives needlessly just as Marsh and Steed did those 17 young men under their care.
You can label me what you want but what I s a w and Joy recorded with her camera can give no other conclusion. I am sorry for Marsh and his subordinate, but if they have done one thing good here, it is to show us that we need to take a very close look at those bosses that are willing to risk lives on the fire line needlessly.
Certainly those young men are heroes that went to their death and I for one still choked up when I think of them or speak of them. I know what it is to lose a son and I know what it is for bosses who carelessly risk those that are under their command.
Shame on these movies and books that continue to promote a lie. You can denigrate me or Joy or those people that promote the truth and there are some very honorable people you attack, but you will never change the truth.
However, your actions in hiding the truth from the public and from people working in the forest fire sector they sure to allow these type unsafe practices and dangerous type bosses to continue to kill their young subordinates.
Charlie, let’s all take a moment to
underline this
or
highlight it
or whatever one does…..or just sit back and barely SKIM and relax as I share….or reply…or ramble
Has one director
or
author
made the vow
or
promise as we have
since day one
to ensure to push the
facts forward to public light
versus beliefs and opinions and narratives only
even if it means exposing areas like we seen FRAUD …
and we did not do that just for the 19 but all fallen
as well for the ones on the lines who yet do not have the courage or safe feeling to come forward and just say it like it is…
and for all people who lost property/homes because they put too much trust that they fight fires to suppress vs what we keep seeing and they keep blaming and YES some do not yet GET what defensible space means as a homeowner but then again some of this industry burning certain areas do not get it either…
so maybe when allowing fires to expand think about who you are allowing this fire to expand to is all I am saying…just this week the county and HOA are responsible from the street to my external wall but if you drive past then you will see the ugliness on my area except my property external wall areas because I do not allow any type of fuel to lay between me and my space…especially knowing how they handle fires nowadays…so the external county/HOA street is ugly but my area and that is because I do not trust the fire folks to suppress the fires anymore so I make sure there is no fuel even if it is THEIR JOB to rid of the weeds I do not wait for them to do it—-I just do it…plus that keeps rattlers from hiding in the brush and foxes too…safety matters!
Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 7:54 AM a back East man in the fire industry, Charlie, walked away from YHF with this to feel and say:
Charlie, you mention fire blankets but you forgot Zack Ashoor and your hike with him but here is what one said this morning on that topic of Zack:
“In my honest opinion I don’t believe it is practical to wear any type of breathing apparatus as a wild-land firefighter other than what is already available on the market today. I look at it as a “risk vs. reward” type of thing.
If you are wearing a cumbersome breathing device this will add to heat and physical stress on the firefighters bodies which is already a huge problem.
The answer to me is not to put firefighters in situations where breathing apparatus are required.
As firefighters we often will try to do something even if it is futile in nature as opposed to just standing by.
There is a cultural thought of “firefighters don’t just stand around” That seems to be what gets us into trouble too.”
then he went to add his thoughts about YHF—-
“As far as my conclusion on the YHF. I think Marsh either directly or indirectly ordered Steed to move the crew. I think he put a lot of pressure on himself to perform and that translated to a feeling of “we gotta do something!”
In the end as the Div Supt. Marsh was responsible for everything that happened on his division.
As crew Capt. Steed was responsible for everything that happened on the crew in the absence of the crew supt.
I don’t want to lay blame on the dead but the fact is in the chain of command you accept that responsibility when you are in a position like that. You are responsible for the safety and welfare of your subordinates! That is the cold hard fact.
In regards to the active winter fire season in the southwest this year. In my opinion it is just a really bad year. Sure there are other environmental factors but when you have so many people living in a fire prone environment and so many potential sources of ignition unfortunately this is the result.
I guess the phrase “Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it” applies. I have seen first hand people living in the middle of tinder dry forests that do little to nothing to take steps to safeguard there property from wildfire…just my two cents..I don’t mean to come off as insensitive, I apologize if it sounds that way…”
If you lived under my Leo father’s roof then you better know Shakespeare as he quoted him oh too often…and his antic dispositions…my father in his deep Staten Island voice would say “Joy, you talk in riddles and I have not the time nor energy to participate in this circle cuckoo-talk, matter of fact you remind me like this Hamlet play itself, all an act…is it? If not say it just say it….say it kid”
and I would turn around and just SAY IT not even yet a teen staring up to this giant man – my dad and I said firmly with fair respected tone:
“Dad, I am done taking your calls from your boss and if you do not want to work around Arpaio and your co-workers than you take the calls but I am done being your voice secretary to say you are sick- you do it”…
so I learn so early on just saying it is not always easy or recommended with certain Leos
so I GET some of the folks on the fire line…Altho’, you’ve oft covered the potential dangers to me and Sonny you on the line that day
I do understand the dangers of speaking up too…
Unfortunately, there’s not enough discussion on this topic…of the elite who fight fire with fire or their actions…and I am not speaking about the Four Horsemen either…
“To Be or Not to BE…”…that is the question I have for those NOT in the SAIR or ADOSH reports—and when will YOU be…
There’s a lot more to ponder, of course, and only very few forums seem to have anything current on this…they can hide but I SEE their shadows peaking out while they are in hiding…
when will one of us strike a chord for those who know more…
who can I feel is safe/trustworthy and consider germane and pertinent to my neck-of-the-woods?
I am concerned that others in the industry at the high up levels who met in person never realized these areas are currently happening.
Gary is right when he talked about the hiring system — no different in the field I was in either when I had to hire my staff… sometimes you get what you get but I also put alot of training and women manipulation and my staff all these decades still keep in touch…when I went to get a massage Sonny’s counselor met them and she was impressed the warmth level—that’s because to me always LIVES MATTERS! and safety too.
Charlie, we can talk about your “drinking” and shit to one another or others (just funnin’)
just like its okay for certain ethnic areas want us to be clear, we are focusing here on a narrow part of the phenomena, namely, those camaraderie uses of the en word….and varied shades and tones as one uses the word I because I am white avoid to even type the word out…So to talk about you and your Irish ways…. “as a term of endearment.” …but as well when I seen too much of a good thing… derogatorily, offensive…so it is perception and delivery one wants to share their point across and I am sure it felt comical in John’s presentation to him and I guess he was trying to reach his audience and well…who are we Charlie…we have no clue who his audience was except his friends apologized to us due to his words in presentation so that has to tell you the audience coming to us and even one of his team apologized to me for his words in presentation so that told me something too…should you too Charlie…do not worry about that and I won’t worry about my flaws…we all are imperfect…
The basic idea is that when some person addresses another by the expression, he or she is attributing certain characteristics and/or traits to the statement’s target.. how do we explain appropriated use…our world Charlie is so silly that when enough people (or the right person or persons) says something in a certain tone then that sets a stage for BELIEF but you and I do not have to worry or fret for we have F A I T H in the T R U T H.
Now- I wish this item was around when I cared about this area…technology is too cool:
https://www.onetwocosmetics.com/presentation/index_010318.php?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlY-qtITF2AIVRheHCh3mBApwEAEYASAAEgKWsfD_BwE&utm_expid=.gf1xhbK6QHSxN2aXwmICng.1&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fgoogleads.g.doubleclick.net%2Fpagead%2Fads%3Fclient%3Dca-pub-8101658338626046%26output%3Dhtml%26h%3D250%26slotname%3D9732434677%26adk%3D1779591782%26adf%3D1480696129%26w%3D300%26loeid%3D38893312%26url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fafricanamericanenglish.com%252F2010%252F10%252F22%252Fwhy-black-people-can-use-the-n-word-a-perspective%252F%26ea%3D0%26flash%3D28.0.0%26wgl%3D1%26adsid%3DNT%26dt%3D1515300006879%26bpp%3D12%26bdt%3D3195%26fdt%3D13%26idt%3D16%26shv%3Dr20180102%26cbv%3Dr20170110%26saldr%3Dsa%26prev_slotnames%3D2743834722%252C6953390117%252C2410798561%252C6027172911%252C8419352374%252C7832836572%26correlator%3D680206048743%26frm%3D23%26ga_vid%3D645240720.1515300004%26ga_sid%3D1515300004%26ga_hid%3D1536434866%26ga_fc%3D0%26pv%3D1%26iag%3D15%26icsg%3D2%26nhd%3D2%26dssz%3D2%26mdo%3D0%26mso%3D0%26u_tz%3D-420%26u_his%3D3%26u_java%3D0%26u_h%3D864%26u_w%3D1536%26u_ah%3D826%26u_aw%3D1536%26u_cd%3D24%26u_nplug%3D5%26u_nmime%3D7%26adx%3D300%26ady%3D3253%26biw%3D1519%26bih%3D760%26isw%3D300%26ish%3D250%26ifk%3D3331026987%26eid%3D21061122%252C38893302%252C191880502%252C20040061%26oid%3D3%26nmo%3D1%26ref%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F%26rx%3D0%26eae%3D2%26fc%3D528%26brdim%3D0%252C0%252C0%252C0%252C1536%252C0%252C1536%252C826%252C300%252C250%26vis%3D1%26rsz%3D%257C%257CoeEbr%257C%26abl%3DCS%26ppjl%3Du%26pfx%3D0%26fu%3D20%26bc%3D1%26jar%3D2018-1-7-4%26osw_key%3D1035151896%26ifi%3D7%26dtd%3D28
good night Charlie-
Always remember be proud to be Irish…
be more proud you still breathe with all your health stuff
even though those docs want to rush you for more surgeries…
if anyone has had heart disease and blood clots in leg..tummy and lungs (hip issues) and you so bad want to do a hernia surgery for relief— that too is a personal choice…for me I would have to rule out does this doc need a new Mercedes or does he give a shit of I live or die…
let’s not let another year pass making bullshit resolutions and JUST DO THEM once and for all
zzzzzzz…night
Charlie, they mention GROUPthink…I call it EXPANDthink myself…
pause
commercial time
https://youtu.be/N8fkjTjM-lE
wrong commercial ad—this was the one Charlie:
https://youtu.be/jcXaR3V38Zw
Sorry Charlie!
Some of those who took advantage of both your and Joy’s good nature should have been more appreciative and respectful.
Oh…and one more thing. If, when and how much you may or may not do anything is a right you have earned at this point in your life, just as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else. So…
And FYI…we, RTS and I are not debating whether “participational” or “directive” leadership styles are the best way to supervise an appropriately trained and experienced workforce who meet or exceed all of the KSA’s, (knowledge, skills and abilities) required for the job in question, which are the key buzz words for every successful federal job application.
We are debating whether participational or directive leadership styles are the best way to supervise the average hotshot crew, which is usually comprised of at least 50% of FNG’s (Fucking New Guys). Of course I agree with RTS that participational leadership is not only the correct way, but the only way to supervise a workforce who has all of the KSA’s for the job they are hired to do.
I did after all…supervise about 12 percent (4 guys LOL…we were a pretty small outfit) of all of the Special Agents who worked for the BLM as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator. All of these agents had an average of more than 15 years of experience and had been hired from the DEA, U.S. Customs Service or the Border Patrol because there was such a strong emphasis on counter drug investigations and operations in Arizona during the years I worked there.
Gary,
“You posted: … the more I research the issue and write about it, the more ridiculous I realize this controversy is because it would be impossible to run every hotshot crew that has ever been in existence, is in existence now, or will ever be in existence until YOU PEOPLE start hiring hotshot crews like you hire your structural (not volunteer) firefighters …”
I think I agree with you on these points. First, there is no ONE right way to run a Hot Shot Crew. And second, if the Feds could hire WF after vetting them properly without all the PC BS to hire Rainbow Crews, then I agree.
“… except for the Payson Hotshots when RTS was in charge because that crew was his special pet project he devoted his life to creating in his image.”
They were kind of a special project because that was my job. As far as creating them in my image, I totally disagree with you. We followed the ways of many accomplished and renowned Warriors using a mix of directive and participatory leadership based on the Crew make-up, the circumstances at the time, whatever.
“… how about this time we focus on getting people to FUCKING FOLLOW all of the rules and guidelines we already have that have been developed and written in the blood of wildland firefighters over more than the past 100 years….what do you say?”
I say I totally agree with you on this and always have. We required that you know them and follow them to the best of your ability.
I will never concede to the Easter Bunny thing because that sets you up for total Groupthink.
“… except for the Payson Hotshots when RTS was in charge because that crew was his special pet project he devoted his life to creating in his image.”
Now you know this was just me being me…you know, a certified Richard Cranium. But since I know you love me just the way I am, more or less, okay…mostly less, so…I don’t want to change who I am at this point. I just wrote that because it is actually the polar opposite of what you value the most, which is an emphasis on the individual…I think?
Now…the only thing I find disturbing about what you think is this whole Easter Bunny thing. There aren’t…nor have never been any bunnies in any of my scenarios, Easter or otherwise. But…if you visualize a bunny in yours, I would be willing to work on that with your at least try to recommend someone who might be able to help you.
I have never been very successful in explaining the nuances of what I valued the most, but it wasn’t on the individual…unless it was. For example, I have said many time that what makes a hotshot crew a hotshot crew, is that the sum of the total is greater than the sum of its parts.
And everyone brings their own individual characteristics, strengths, unique skills and life experiences to the crew. The easiest examples are someone will be a car mechanic, or know how to repair small engines, someone else will be proficient at welding, rock climbing, hydraulics or helicopter operations. Some will be deep thinkers who can resolve complex problems, others will have exceptional upper body strength and make good First Pulaski’s, whereas one of the most valuable skills to bring to a hotshot crew is Emergency Medical Technician training up to and including working in hospital emergency rooms, while others will have strong people skills, natural leadership abilities, be peace makers or be someone others can coalesce around, while others will have strong organizational skills for special projects, or have exceptional communication skills and of course every crew needs the person who can scrounge around and find whatever the crew needs. You also need a good mix of hell raisers and those who can follow the rules, college students or graduates, ex military, experienced construction workers with a variety of skills and those with an interest in fire science, etc. And then all of those people can come together and transform into Myrmidons…except when they don’t need to be to best accomplish the particular task at hand, it’s…complicated. And I am really hesitated to even use the Myrmidons analogy because that description probably fits your worst case scenario for what I think.
And although I am interested and concerned about all wildland firefighter serious injuries and deaths, I have written before I focus the most on those involving hotshots. I have also written that I consider myself a student of only four fires, the Loop Fire of 1966, the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976. the South Canyon Fire of 1994 and now the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013.
And out of those four fires, there are really only three of them that relate to flawed hotshot wildland firefighting tactics that resulted in the deaths in question, in my opinion. And that is because the deaths on the South Canyon Fire as I’m sure you know, aren’t related to hotshot tactics per se, but are more related to a confused mix of standard wildland firefighting strategies managed by an engine supervisor and the jumper-in-charge who alternated as the Incident Commander which resulted in no one being in charge…I think?
But in any case, if you look closely at the other three fires, which account for all hotshot deaths in history that are not related to random individual accidental deaths, they can all be traced to a single cause. And that is working in chimneys, or chutes, above a wildfire, which I find very interesting and revealing. Furthermore, in all three of these fires, the specific danger was clearly identified by many of those present, including all three hotshot crew bosses in a timely manner prior to the tragedies. Which is something I find to be completely inexplicable and very sad.
In the case of the El Cariso Hotshots on the Loop Fire, several other crews who were present on that fire actually refused the assignment to go into the chute to construct the hand line above the fire the overhead wanted done. I think I remember Bob saying one of those crews was the Oak Grove Hotshots but it was before his time.
But anyway…Gordon King then agreed to take his crew into the chute above the fire to build the line and then the fire did exactly what apparently many others were afraid it would do. So…in my opinion hotshot hubris is what killed 12 El Cariso Hotshots and seriously injured (burned) almost everyone else.
In the case of the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire, Tony Czak clearly recognized the danger they were in and he sent most of his crew to the predesignated safety zone but kept a small burn team consisting of a squad boss and two crewmen with him to finish burning out their line directly above the backfire in a huge canyon and then the fire made a run up a smaller canyon and cut off the escape route entirely.
They literally watched the backfire come at them for hours and then they tried to time their pullout shortly before the fire reached their position thinking they could outrun it. And they could have except for the separate run it made up the smaller canyon.
So…in my opinion, hotshot hubris and working above the fire in a canyon is what killed the three Mormon Lake Hotshots and seriously injured (burned) the fourth.
And I think we all know now what happened to the Granite Mountain Hotshots on the Yarnell Hill Fire, although I think there are still some particulars I don’t know yet?
So…in my opinion, hotshot hubris and working in front and above the fire in a canyon is what killed the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.
I think we could sum up everything hotshots need to know about safely fighting wildfires based on our 70 year history in really simple terms, such as;
“Don’t do stupid things, e.g., working above or in front of a wildfire in canyons.”
Or maybe we could say;
“Keep your hotshot hubris in check.i.e., if what you are thinking about doing looks really dangerous or if others have told you what you are thinking about doing is really dangerous, it probably is so you shouldn’t do it.”
Which I don’t really like because it is complicated and has so many words to specifically describe what you shouldn’t do. So we could simplify it by just saying, “Keep you hotshot hubris in check.” or simply, “Don’t do stupid things”?
Or how about using the rule of one except changing it into a compound sentence;
“Keep your hotshot hubris in check and don’t do stupid things.”
Yes…I like that one. We could even expand it to everyone else by simply changing one word and adding another.
“Keep your wildland firefighting hubris in check and don’t do stupid things.” Except it really gets a lot more complicated when you add in all of the variables and other reasons a lot of other wildland firefighters were killed or seriously injured which really takes away from the “Rule Of One.”
I think Paul Gleason was on the track with his LCES. But I like the Rule Of One even better because it’s easier to remember. Or how about;
“Stay out of canyons above or in front of a wildfire.”
That is pretty simple.
*
Gary,
Excellent lesson! You started with this: “Keep your hotshot hubris in check and don’t do stupid things.” and then finished with the POSITIVE version by telling WF what to do, instead of what not to do – “Stay out of canyons above or in front of a wildfire.”
Excellent!.
How about adding this? Stay alive – Stay out of canyons above or in front of a wildfire.
My humble apologies for the Bunny thing. I first type these posts out in a Word document because there is more space, I can copy and paste, and other benefits. And then there is also the dreaded Auto-Correct thing. That and not proof reading it before posting is all I can think of.
It was unintentional. I meant no disrespect.
It’s okay about the misunderstanding over the bunny, I would have even worked with you on including a bunny if you wanted one, I don’t want to be a judgemental person in my Golden Years. But…back on point, I think our informal working group has arrived at a something that is a final product which is something I have always wanted which is a…purpose.
I’m not saying this is the final or only product, because there very well could be more. But in the meantime, this is something we can point to as a positive result from our efforts…points we can put on the board.
And once again, it’s not that I don’t care about all wildland firefighters and the reasons they get killed, but once you add engine crews, helitack and smokejumpers and others, there are just too many variables for me to wrap my mind around…the problem is just too big and complex to deal with in this format.
I do think however, we have distilled the reason why all hotshots have been killed on wildfires in the entire 70 year history of hotshots, excluding random accidental deaths from things like falling trees, etc. And for our purposes, I think we can even include the deaths of the 9 Prineville hotshots on the South Canyon Fire.
The only thing that makes them an outlier is who was responsible for them being where they were, doing what they were doing and why they were doing it because their crew boss wasn’t involved in the decsion making process and the squad boss was following the direction of whoever was on charge at the time of the incident, which was either the local BLM engine supervisor or the USFS jumper-in-charge Mackey and I think it was Mackey.
But…the basic circumstances were the same. Hotshots were constructing hand line in a canyon above the fire. There are unique variable in each fire like the size of the canyon, the strength of the wind event, the steepness of the topography and significant preheating of the lower crowns (whatever that is called?) of Gamble Oak and larger trees,. etc.
But there are also a lot of similarities like time of day, RH, middle of summer which was late June to early July etc, but that is getting down into the weeds and not particularly relevant to what we are talking about here.
The size of the canyon and the strength of the wind event doesn’t matter either because the bottom line is there was enough wind to cause the fire to go to hell in a hand basket in the canyon the hotshots were in above the fire in question, regardless of its size. I think it was really extreme on the Yarnell Hill Fire because it was a relatively small canyon and very high winds?
So…anyway, I really like your improvement on the basic, “Rule of One” C. 2018, Go, I always suspected your extensive experience in wildland firefighter safety, training and tendency to be a brainiac would pay off some day…it’s just been a very long, in addition to a mentally and psychological arduous journey.
Your addition is catchy, yet retains what I like most of all…it is simple and the entire rule is contained in a single sentence so it will be easy for hotshots to remember. And most important…it would have been 100 percent effective if it would have been followed based on all hotshot deaths in the history of hotshots to date.
Here is the total body count to date not counting serious burn injuries.
* Loop Fire of 1966, 12 El Cariso Hotshots
* Battlement Creek Fire of 1976, 3 Mormon Lake Hotshots
* South Canyon Fire of 1994, 9 Prineville Hotshots
* Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013, 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots
Grand Total…43 hotshots
Citizen Hotshot Safety Working Group Recommendation.
Include the “Hotshot Rule of One” in all future hotshot and basic wildland firefighter training.
“Stay(ing) a(A)live – Stay (Keep) out of canyons above or in front of a wildfire.”
It really sounds simple and detractors might say it is just stating the obvious Which it is…but once again, if this simple and obvious rule would have been followed, there wouldn’t have been ANY (excluding random individual accidents) hotshot deaths in the entire history of hotshot crews. Which is really sad once you recognize that simple fact by distilling the direct cause of all of those deaths down to its lowest common denominator.
And once again…in three out of the four cases, all of those who were killed or watched them die were aware they were working in a canyon above or in front of a wildfire and clearly recognized the danger. I don’t know if anyone was aware of the danger those who were killed on the South Canyon Fire recognized and discussed the danger they were in or not?
If we didn’t try to make the distinction of the situation the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew was in, we wouldn’t even have to say “in front”, of a wildfire, we would only have to say, “above” a wildfire. And the canyon they actually died in….was above the wildfire in the end, but maybe that is getting down into the weeds again and it would be better just to leave it as it is?
I got lost again and didn’t point out the significant problem of pre drying out the fuels was on the South Canyon Fire. I think I remember that is called the “understory?”
And the suggestions in the parentheses are just that…my suggestions. Somebody has to make the final call and you are in the WF loop, how about you make it?
And I don’t remember all 28 WF rules and I am too lazy to look them up. Is the Rule of One specifically mentioned anywhere in the 28? I guess it must be by at least inference or deduction…or whatever?
Or maybe it was the overstory that was dried out and preheated when the understory burned? The point is…it sounds like that canyon went up like a Roman Candle with a lot of WF in it constructing hand line above the fire.
I did look all of them up and the Hoshot Safety Rule Of One isn’t specifically mentioned. There are some that have a warning from witch it can be inferred, or it is implied, but that is obviously not good enough.
For example,
In the 18 situations That Shout Watch out
9. Building fireline downhill with fire below
The copy and paste feature on this iPad is hard for me to use, but here they are.
The 10 Standard Fire Orders
The NWCG Parent Group just approved the revision of the Ten Standard Fire Orders in accordance with their
original arrangement. The original arrangement of the Orders are logically organized to be implemented systematically and applied to all fire situations.
Fire Behavior
1. Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
2. Know what your fire is doing at all times.
3. Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
Fireline Safety
4. Identify escape routes and make them known.
5. Post lookouts when there is possible danger.
6. Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.
Organizational Control
7. Maintain prompt communications with your forces, your supervisor and adjoining forces.
8. Give clear instructions and insure they are understood.
9. Maintain control of your forces at all times.
If 1-9 are considered, then…
10. Fight fire agressively, having provided for safety first.
The 10 Standard Fire Orders are firm. We don’t break them; we don’t bend them. All firefighters have the right to a safe assignment.
The 18 Watch Out Situations
Fire not scouted and sized up.
In country not seen in daylight.
Safety zones and escape routes not identified.
Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior
Uninformed on strategy, tactics, and hazards.
Instructions and assignments not clear.
No communication link between crewmembers and
supervisors.
Constructing line without safe anchor point.
Building line downhill with fire below.
Attempting frontal assault on fire.
Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
Cannot see main fire, not in contact with anyone who can.
On a hillside where rolling material can ignite fuel below.
Weather gets hotter and drier.
Wind increases and/or changes direction.
Getting frequent spot fires across line.
Terrain or fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
Feel like taking a nap near fireline.
Courtesy of National Interagency Coordination Center (NIC
10 10 Standard Fire Orders & 18 Watch Out Situations
The 10 Standard Fire Orders were developed in 1957 by a task force studying ways to prevent firefighter injuries and fatalities. Shortly after the Standard Fire Orders were incorporated into firefighter training, the 18 Situations That Shout Watch Out were developed. These 18 situations are more specific and cautionary than the Standard Fire Orders and described situations that expand the 10 points of the Fire Orders. If firefighters follow the 10 Standard Fire Orders and are alerted to the 18 Watch Out Situations, much of the risk of firefighting can be reduced.
The 10 Standard Fire Orders
The NWCG Parent Group just approved the revision of the Ten Standard Fire Orders in accordance with their original arrangement. The original arrangement of the Orders are logically organized to be implemented systematically and applied to all fire situations.
Fire Behavior
1. Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
2. Know what your fire is doing at all times.
3. Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
Fireline Safety
4. Identify escape routes and make them known.
5. Post lookouts when there is possible danger.
6. Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.
Organizational Control
7. Maintain prompt communications with your forces, your supervisor and adjoining forces.
8. Give clear instructions and insure they are understood.
9. Maintain control of your forces at all times.
If 1-9 are considered, then…
10. Fight fire agressively, having provided for safety first.
The 10 Standard Fire Orders are firm. We don’t break them; we don’t bend them. All firefighters have the right to a safe assignment.
The 18 Watch Out Situations
Fire not scouted and sized up.
In country not seen in daylight.
Safety zones and escape routes not identified.
Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior
Uninformed on strategy, tactics, and hazards.
Instructions and assignments not clear.
No communication link between crewmembers and
supervisors.
Constructing line without safe anchor point.
Building line downhill with fire below.
Attempting frontal assault on fire.
Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
Cannot see main fire, not in contact with anyone who can.
On a hillside where rolling material can ignite fuel below.
Weather gets hotter and drier.
Wind increases and/or changes direction.
Getting frequent spot fires across line.
Terrain or fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
Feel like taking a nap near fireline.
Courtesy of National Interagency Coordination Center (NIC Fire Orders & 18 Watch Out Situations
The 10 Standard Fire Orders were developed in 1957 by a task force studying ways to prevent firefighter injuries and fatalities. Shortly after the Standard Fire Orders were incorporated into firefighter training, the 18 Situations That Shout Watch Out were developed. These 18 situations are more specific and cautionary than the Standard Fire Orders and described situations that expand the 10 points of the Fire Orders. If firefighters follow the 10 Standard Fire Orders and are alerted to the 18 Watch Out Situations, much of the risk of firefighting can be reduced.
The 10 Standard Fire Orders
The NWCG Parent Group just approved the revision of the Ten Standard Fire Orders in accordance with their original arrangement. The original arrangement of the Orders are logically organized to be implemented systematically and applied to all fire situations.
Fire Behavior
1. Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
2. Know what your fire is doing at all times.
3. Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
Fireline Safety
4. Identify escape routes and make them known.
5. Post lookouts when there is possible danger.
6. Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.
Organizational Control
7. Maintain prompt communications with your forces, your supervisor and adjoining forces.
8. Give clear instructions and insure they are understood.
9. Maintain control of your forces at all times.
If 1-9 are considered, then…
10. Fight fire agressively, having provided for safety first.
The 10 Standard Fire Orders are firm. We don’t break them; we don’t bend them. All firefighters have the right to a safe assignment.
The 18 Watch Out Situations
Fire not scouted and sized up.
In country not seen in daylight.
Safety zones and escape routes not identified.
Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior
Uninformed on strategy, tactics, and hazards.
Instructions and assignments not clear.
No communication link between crewmembers and
supervisors.
Constructing line without safe anchor point.
Building line downhill with fire below.
Attempting frontal assault on fire.
Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
Cannot see main fire, not in contact with anyone who can.
On a hillside where rolling material can ignite fuel below.
Weather gets hotter and drier.
Wind increases and/or changes direction.
Getting frequent spot fires across line.
Terrain or fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
Feel like taking a nap near fireline
I think the ones that have a message from which the Hotshot Rule Of One can be extrapolated from are to vague to be useful…obviously, with all hotshot deaths in history being specifically caused by their failure to observe and follow the Hotshot Rule Of One. So…
Gary,
I am going ahead and proclaiming my ignorance on the “Rule Of One” that also seems to be the “Hotshot Rule of One.”
What is that and what does that mean? I’m sure I know the answer once you reveal it, just not a phrase I have used.
I still know ALL the WF Rules by heart and in order too …
Dear RTS,
I would be lyin’ if I wrote I am not deeply disappointed in your most recent response. It is however, going to take me some time to think of the right thing to write in response to your response.
But…I just wanted to let you know how much you have disappointed me in the meantime. I know this was not your intent because you are a better person than than your response suggests, but I suspect you may not be a brainiac after all.
In fact…you might be as dumb as a bag of hammers, or at least as unimaginative and open to new ideas as a box of rocks.
Oh…and one more thing. There have been times that not everyone knew what was rattling around inside my head…so I guess the problem could be me? Nahhhh…no way!
Gary on the Loop fire it was the Chilao Hot Shots. I believe Bear Divide as well.
Also El Cariso had another burn over 5 or 6 years prior on the Cleveland NF. The Wounded duck was truly their Mascot.
Right thanks Bob
All Storied Hotshot Crews from the Cradle Of Hotshot Civilization!
So if I was a hotshot…there is something about Norb’s professionalism that has always striked me as unique and without a doubt worthy of accolades and I would as a hotshot learn about my Sup before taking a job and I would for sure have pick ed Norb’s crew because he has proven himself to be one of the neatest people in leadership. He has no ego so to me that should be taught too when training leaders…check egos at the door…just my 2 cents…
I’m not talking about egos in general yet focused in on the glazed brown hued noses ones who have egos in that industry so don’t misfilter what I say Norb as the non ego and you all are…that’s not the case…just feel ego should be checked at the door because that too can save lives was all I meant
Joy,
It’s more complicated than that and I don’t think you should assume that getting on any hotshot crew is easy just because I have written so much about the high turnover rates and the level of inexperience on any given crew at any given time.
The only thing I can say is that, “Personnel works in mysterious ways” What you are saying is that if you wanted to be a professional basket ball player, you would find which team has the coach who you like the best and then sign on with that team. It works that way if you are somebody like Michael Jordon, but for most aspiring professional basket ball players…they just hope they get picked up by somebody and most…don’t.
Here is my best example of just how screwed up federal personnel is and just how frustrating and disappointing they can make the entire process in pursuit of what they think is important, which may or may not make any sense, but it usually make absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I have told the story of how I went to Santa Fe to start a new hotshot crew and that four former Happy Jack Hotshots went with me and it is only because they were there that I was successful…probably. All I know is that I would not have wanted to try it by myself.
I was the ONLY one who received any preferred consideration whatsoever. In fact, the Coconino National Forest simply transferred my Official Personnel Folder to the Santa Fe and both offices filled out some forms and suddenly I was there with a paid move.
That happened in January of the year I left the Coconino, although since I was only guaranteed 6 months of full time employment at the time myself, I was actually laid off when my transfer went into effect. Had I not gone over at the very same pay grade, the Santa Fe would have to have advertised the position and I could have been beaten out for the job by, Oh…I don’t know, probably several hundred other people including disabled veterans who had only worked on the east coast for the National Park Service taking money for admission at a National Seashore and nobody would have understood why except somebody somewhere in the personnel office but it could have been any number of personnel offices at several levels. It gets really complicated and very difficult to successfully manipulate and even the very best manipulators aren’t always successful and then the system melts down…at least if you are me or the guy who wanted to hire me on the Santa Fe to be his new hotshot crew boss.
Now for the rest of the story. There were actually five former Happy Jack Hotshots who wanted to go to Santa Fe and could because most couldn’t because of a lot of personal reasons…like their families, girlfriends or wives worked or were going to college in Flagstaff, Arizona.
So anyway…all five of those other guys had to apply to go to work for the Santa Fe National Forest just like everyone else who wanted to work for the Santa Fe National Forest without receiving ANY consideration except for me searching through hundreds of names hoping theirs were high enough on the list using a complex point system only THEY understand.
But you can’t get to number 87 until number 88 through number 100 are hired by you or somebody else. It gets really bad if the people you want to hire are much further down the list and everybody above them are disabled veterans who have never worked for anyone except the National Park Service on the east coast taking admission money at an entrance station.
But there are dozens, if not hundreds of them and they all had all the time in the world and all of the imagination to FLUFF up their applications with lies or gross exaggerations that make all of the fee station attendants at the National Sear Shore on the East Coast look they are God’s gift to a hotshot crew in Santa Fe New Mexico and personnel doesn’t give a darn what your needs or wants are, they only care about their needs and wants which are NOT in alignment with yours.
So anyway…one of the five guys I was counting on didn’t even make the certification….period. Personnel suing their algorithms didn’t rate him as qualified to be a hotshot on the Santa Fe even though he had prior hotshot experience on the Coconino and nobody knew or even cared why that happened.
I mean, we cared and he certainly cared, he and I were both devastated, but personnel didn’t care and there was nothing anyone could, or would do. So anyway….he became a bank manager instead, which probably worked out for him in the end, but it was a blow to my plans…I needed him. Then the next year a fifth guy who had been in the Peace Corps finished his time and he joined us, but I never got the original fifth man.
Oh never mind….I don’t have the patience or ability to explain to you just how bad the system is and you don’t have the patience or ability to comprehend just how bad the system is. I don’t have the ability to comprehend just how bad the system is is and now I have given myself post traumatic stress just thinking about dealing with federal personnel officers, rules, regulations and laws again.
Joy,
It would be better and produce superior hotshot crews if hotshot crew bosses could hire whoever they wanted to like I think the Granite Mountain Hotshots could do. But…that can lead to problems like…I dunno, say somebody just wanted to hire Fundamentalist Charismatic Christians or whatever….that could be a problem?
Or if somebody didn’t want any women, Gays, Hispanics, Black people or White people of Nordic descent, Mormons or big guys who eat too much food, drink too much water and can’t take the heat…that could be a problem as well?
So…I guess we should just leave personnel alone with the understanding there are pretty good reasons for their stupid algorithms, rules, regulations and laws and just work within the system and have hotshot crew bosses produce the best crews they can given their limitations and restrictions?
I have usually been harsh and opinionated on this blog regarding issues I feel strongly about. I have also however, always. tried to retract or apologize when I have been proven to be out of line. Well…another such time is now upon me and I am aghast…yes, aghast. Which is not a word I have ever used in a sentence before now, although I have read it in sentences others have written, but not from this century.
Anyway, wayyyy downstream I wrote that I thought the First Lady of our great nation was a Slovakian or a Slovenia whore, I can’t remember which? I was offended that Melanie didn’t want to live in, “This Old House”, because it wasn’t good enough for her, so somebody had to pay, was reported, one (1) million dollars a day extra in additional security costs so she could continue to live in New York City on 5th Avenue.
I was also disappointed that she has never held the promised news conference to produce the documents to prove that she didn’t enter this country illegally to take work from American whores. Although a Great Wall that Mexico paid for wouldn’t have stopped her from being a ”espalda mojada” because she arrived by an intercontinental airplane on a “tourist visa” to work illegally in this country as a “model.”
But now…I find out she was in on the joke from the very beginning of The Donald’s self promotional tour masquerading as a presidential campaign and she had been promised he didn’t have a chance to win by Donald Trump himself, because nobody in his camp, including The Donald himself didn’t think enough people would actually vote for him for President Of the United States…then they did and ruined the joke.
So anyway, come to find out Melanie was very distraught and in tears when he actually won because she knew first hand how fucking INSANE that crazy old man is and just how much of a clear and present danger he represented to the rest of us. So…I can’t be mad at her, it want her fault. It was my peoples fault, so I actually feel complicit. #poorlyeducatedbluecollarlowwageforgottenamericansfromredstateswerentreallysupposedtotakehimseriouslyandactuallyvoteforhimbecauseitwasjustafuckingselfpromotionalcharade…whoops
Oh…and one more thing, I am still working on my response to RTS regarding which is the better way to manage a hotshot crew, by participational or directive leadership because the more I research the issue and write about it, the more ridiculous I realize this controversy is because it would be impossible to run every hotshot crew that has ever been in existence, is in existence now, or will ever be in existence until YOU PEOPLE start hiring hotshot crews like you hire your structural (not volunteer) firefighters except for the Payson Hotshots when RTS was in charge because that crew was his special pet project he devoted his life to creating in his image.
Kind of like crazy Colonel Kurtz, you know…”We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won’t allow them to write “fuck” on their airplanes because it’s obscene!. I’ve seen horrors… horrors that you’ve seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that… but you have no right to judge me. It’s impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror… Horror has a face… and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies! I remember when I was with Special Forces… seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate some children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn’t see. We went back there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember… I… I… I cried, I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out; I didn’t know what I wanted to do! And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it… I never want to forget. And then I realized… like I was shot… like I was shot with a diamond… a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, my God… the genius of that! The genius! The will to do that! Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we, because they could stand that these were not monsters, these were men… trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love… but they had the strength… the strength… to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men, our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral… and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling… without passion… without judgment… without judgment! Because it’s judgment that defeats us.”
Which is cool…but you won’t find any other hotshot crew bosses willing to do that because they are either like Bob, who used that job as a “carrier” move in order to move up the food chain to a good job and career, or like me. And In my case once again, I was not only an accidental hotshot, I was an accidental hotshot crew boss because I was the last man standing and they yelled, “Hey you…yeah you fatso, you’re in charge until we find somebody better. In the meantime, try not to fuck it up…too bad, okay Cupcake?”
And since YOU PEOPLE are to fucking cheap to do that because you want a lot for a little and have been successful in getting it so far, you think, “Hey…why buy the cow if I can get the milk for a ridiculously discounted rate?” So…I keep deleting my white paper on the subject because I feel like I am writing, why 1+1=2, why 2+2=4,why 3+3=6…etc. in other words…I am reluctant to spend so much time writing something so obvious that will insult your intelligence, although it has never bothered before now.
I kind of got lost there a couple of times and didn’t finish my thought, well…actually I finished my thought, I just didn’t finish it in the appropriate paragraph. But…I’m pretty sure you got the gist of my argument. You can’t run a hotshot crew or any other wildland firefighting crews except for maybe some engine crews, helislack crews and all smokejumper gaggles (see…disorderly group of noisy people) because most of them are former Hotshots by “participatory leadership!”
Or…to put it in simpler terms for the dim witted, the fucking turnover rate is too fucking high because the job sucks, unless you are like Bob and you are simply using the job as a stepping stone to one of the greatest careers youwill find anywhere.
News Flash…Dateline Olympia Washington…The experience level of the average crewmember of the Granite Mountain Hotshots was an anomaly…because they weren’t restricted by onerous personnel federal or even state personnel rules, regulations and laws…thay were actually above average because they could play “loosey goosey” with ALL of the rules and even hire ex felons who snorted coke and committed crimes to support his habit (that wasn’t the ONLY crime he committed idiot…that was just the ONE he got caught committing) because he was a fucking loser and couldn’t either get or keep a good job and so the another alcoholic former (maybe “former”, maybe “current”) controlled pharmaceutical addict self identified with him and gave him a chance to work four or five years to prove he deserved a second chance, but thought he deserved one after three or four months so he could have what I never did…time with his family.
And so once upon a time…the Granite Mountain Hotshots did what all hotshot crews are trained and conditioned to do, they started looking for Easter Eggs because the man they respected for his abilities and experience as a hotshot crew boss under extremely dangerous and fluid conditions by the name of Jesse Steed announced, saddle up boys…it’s Easter.
Don’t over analyze it asshole…it’s what the Greeks called a parable.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable
Whoops…I was too tired two finger typing on this damn machine to properly state the most salient point of my entire diatribe, which I prefer over the cruder word…rant.
And so once upon a time, on June 30, 2013…the Granite Mountain Hotshots did what all hotshot crews are trained and conditioned to do. They immediately started looking for Easter Eggs because the man they highly respected and trusted with their lives for his abilities and experience as a hotshot crew boss under extremely dangerous and dynamic conditions by the name of Jesse Steed announced while fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire as they were kickin’ back and very comfortable and safe on a ridge in the black overlooking and appreciatively watching one of the Great Creator’s most magnificent displays, a firestorm of Biblical proportions, “SADDLE UP BOYS…IT’S EASTER!”
And I didn’t beat the horse called”Why did Steed do that?” to death again, but I have beaten the very same horse to death a number of times over ypthe past four years…so I don’t want any clueless asshole, even one by the name of John Maclean, to bullshit a bulshitter with the Great Lie that is the Granite Mountain Hotshots couldn’t stand to merely sit by and watch so they were driven by the overwhelming urge to take what their crew boss declared an unacceptable risk three (3) fucking times, but finally acquiesced to because his egotistical and very vindictive supervisor who had a huge chip on his shoulder and wanted to prove everyone wrong, ordered him to follow his flagging down a death chute that everyone knows to stay the fuck out of ever since Gordon King killed 12 members and seriously burned most of the rest of the El Caruso Hotshots on the Loop Fire Of 1966 and they started writing the rules and regulations that were written in the blood of crispy critters from the lessons learned over more than 100 years, starting with the 10 Standard Fire Fighting Rules. And then it happened again and again, so they wrote the 13 Situations That Shout Watch Out. And then it happened again and again and again, so they added 5 more Situations That Shout Watch Out! And then it happened again and again and again! And so Paul Gleason said, hey nobody under stress or any other time except for some anal retentive former members of the Oak Grove Hotshots because they were potty trained by their mothers using a magnum handgun can remember 28 (it is well known that the average person can only remember 7 things at a time…hence 7 digit telephone numbers) rules or guidelines depending on which side of the debate you come down on, so he came up with LCES. And then it happened again…but this time it was really bad on the South Canyon Fire many people mistakenly call the Storm King Mountain Fire and Tom Allen (BLM Associate Director, BLM Washington DC Office who I personally knew quite well, and Les Rosenkrance, who I also knew quite well because I worked for him as the BLM State Director in Arizona said, “Hey…wait a minute, every time this happens, we react by coming up with more wildland firefighting rules and guidelines, depending on which side of the debate you come down on and we already have more than anyone can remember except for a few anal retentive former members of the Oak Grove Hotshots can remember…how about this time we focus on getting people to FUCKING FOLLOW all of the rules and guidelines we already have that have been developed and written in the blood of wildland firefighters over more than the past 100 years….what do you say? Well…fuck it, we’re in charge so we are going to do it our way regardless of what you assholes think! Both Les and Tom were pretty good managers and Tom retires as the BLM Alaska State Director and Les retired as the Director Of NIFC, even though Les is a former smokejumper, but you know…fuck it!
Whoops…I’m only going to correct one (1) mistake because it’s the only one that is important. It was the El Cariso Hotshots on the Loop Fire Of 1966, not the El Caruso Hotshots…damn Apple spelling corrective feature. and yes…I do know I could turn it off if I wanted to bad enough.
Oh…and one more thing in the category of trivia and Pop Culture minutia I like to include with my posts for extra debate credit.
The reason I always like to write “written in blood over more than the past 100 years” is because wildland firefighting time began with the creation of the U.S. Forest Service in 1905 under the guidance of Gifford Pinchot. Our creator who now has a forest named after him where I fought fire back in the day…on the Gifford Pinchot.
Kind of like time began for everyone else when Jesus Christ was born, as in B.C. (Before Christ) and A.D. (Anno Domini) which means “in the year of the Lord” and is taken from the full original phrase “anno Domini nostri Jesu Christi”, which translates, “in the year of our Lord Jesus Christ” when using the Julian and Gregorian Calenders to label or number years…Booyah! I’m on a fuckin’ role this afternoon. Somebody got a good nights sleep last night…your welcome!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forest_Service
FYI…because you are indeed my closest friends and confidants and I don’t have any secrets from you…and to build my own street creds to emphasize just how much of an insider I was and therefore know what the fuck I’m talking about as opposed to people like I dunno….John Maclean, I’ll share with you just how well I knew the former Associate Director of the BLM Washington, D.C. Office (the number two person in the entire BLM) and the retired Director of BLM Alaska, Tom Allen.
I spent an entire afternoon sitting on a shop stool in a bay in Tom’s son’s garage (who happened to own the shop I took my cars to in Phoenix, although that was a random coincidence, small world) telling him about all of the corruption and misconduct I had personally witnessed and been involved with in my official capacity as a Special Agent for the BLM.
Nobody can tell me squat about being a hotshot or being an insider! There are plenty of people however, who can tell me what the, “Hail Mary” plan on the Yarnell Hill Fire was that made Eric Marsh take such a reckless and unacceptable risk that ended up killing his crew.
Tom Allen was actually the one who said we shouldn’t make any more rules or guidelines our wildland firefighters don’t follow because the Executive Summary for the South Canyon Fire Investigation was presented to him by the head of said investigative team, Les Rosenkrance…who just happened to be my state director at the time.
Oh…and one more thing. That World Class Asshole Dudley Do Wrong said he hates it when the, “Crazy Conspiracy Theorists” come out of the woodwork…or whatever the fuck he said, it was something like that.
That stupid asshole doesn’t have any idea how many bodies I buried for management. And that includes U.S. Forest Service management. Management often thinks just because somebody has a badge and a gun and happens to work for the same agency they do…it’s their job to do the black bag jobs for them.
And well…you have to pick your battles, you can’t die on every hill, there are just too many of them.
Well…just one more, I hope. That is why there are U.S. Forest Service Special Agents and USDI Office of Inspector General Special Agents. I myself have been investigated twice by USDI Office of Inspector General Special Agents but I never did a, “Day On The Beach”, which means I never did anything wrong, or they never could prove I did anything wrong. Somebody has to investigate the investigators.
Fuckin’ Dudley…he thinks I don’t know his job was to bury the bodies for management regarding the YHF SAIT SAIR…stupid fuck? Who the fuck does he think I am…or was?
Whoops, I forgot one. I was investigated three (3) times by USDI Office of Inspector General Special Agents. And I came close a few other times, but close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, ROTFFL!
Double whoops…I wrote that wrong, too much thinking and typing today., I am wearing myself out. I need a nap before I go to sleep for the night.
“…but I never did a even one day, “On The Beach”, which means I never did anything wrong, or they never could prove I did anything wrong.” So…
Olde Gary,
There’s so much here I don’t know where to start.
So, you’re saying that shot crews are run authoritatively by design & as such rely on responsible bosses/supervision to ‘keep em in the upright position.’ I agree. Apart from the longest running hotshot supe of all time, an oulier, a non-conformist (whom I respect for that), crews are run ‘my way or the highway.’ Now, that doesn’t mean a crew member will never question actions taken on a fire, but let’s be honest, is anyone other than a squadie or a very experienced senior crew member ever going to actually have the serious opportunity to do so? I don’t think so.
I’ve worked with somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 shot crews over the years and while they are all unique in their own right, they share many commonalities – the supe rules. I regret that I’ve never had the opportunity to work along side Payson because I really want to know if they are an outlier.
Additionally, you’re saying the problem lies in that in the aftermath of tragedy, as an institution we create more rules to later be broken when the original rules were never followed in the first place? Are you also saying the problem is institutional and as such the wildfire community is almost 100% devoid of the willingness (or ability) to repair itself while also being totally against those on the outside to have any opportunity whatsoever to have a seat at the table to discuss needed change?
The first step is to admit we have a problem. We have a problem.
I’ll keep it up on my end until I retire. Will anyone listen? Nope. Not as far as I can see.
Yes…there is a lot to unpack there. That is my most favorite buzz phrase from last year…”so much to unpack.”
THE Woodsman wrote,
“So, you’re saying that shot crews are run authoritatively by design & as such rely on responsible bosses/supervision to ‘keep em in the upright position.’ I agree. Apart from the longest running hotshot supe of all time, an oulier, a non-conformist (whom I respect for that),
crews are run ‘my way or the highway.’ Now, that doesn’t mean a crew member will never question actions taken on a fire, but let’s be honest, is anyone other than a squadie or a very experienced senior crew member ever going to actually have the serious opportunity to do so? I don’t think so.
I’ve worked with somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 shot crews over the years and while they are all unique in their own right, they share many commonalities – the supe rules.”
Yes…that is indeed what I am saying. You get it. The crew boss rules…or if the crew is broken down into squads or smaller modules for special assignments like small dispersed lighting fires…the squad boss or senior crewman rules. Or in the case things go to hell in a hand basket and the entire crew command and control structure has disintegrated, which does happen some times…the Senior Crewman rules.
Anybody but the new guys they just hired, which are about 50 percent of every hotshot crew because the turnover rate is so high. Unless they find themselves alone…and in trouble, which can also happen. In which case, they are just going to have to step up to the plate and swing for the fences because often the right thing to do in common sense and everyone there has had been trained in the basics.
It is however, much better with the “professionalization” of today’s hotshot crews because there are a minimum of 7 full time positions. Back in the day, my day…hotshot crews were often built on one (1) full time position (the crew boss) and sometimes one or two more which were the squad bosses.
THE Woodsman wrote,
“Additionally, you’re saying the problem lies in that in the aftermath of tragedy, as an institution we create more rules to later be broken when the original rules were never followed in the first place?”
That is exactly what I am saying. Up until the deaths of an entire squad (nine) of Prineville Hotshots, two helitack and three highly experienced smokejumpers on the South Canyon Fire…the wildland firefighting community (management) responded to every tragedy by making more rules and guidelines when we already had to many to remember and too many people weren’t following them anyway.
This was managements attempt to feel good about what they were doing while what they were doing was the equivalent of applying a band aid to a sucking chest wound and calling it a day. Tom Allen broke that viscous circle and they haven’t done it again since 1994/95.
Although now they seem to do nothing except cover up the screw ups, just like they did on the Battlement Creek Fire. This even occurred on the South Canyon Fire because Dr. Ted Putnam refused to sign off on the latter, even though they persuaded him sign off on the former as a member of the SAIT by promising him they would implement institutional and structural changes in the way we did business, but then they promptly broke their promise to him.
THE Woodsman wrote,
“Are you also saying the problem is institutional and as such the wildfire community is almost 100% devoid of the willingness (or ability) to repair itself while also being totally against those on the outside to have any opportunity whatsoever to have a seat at the table to discuss needed change?”
Yes…that is exactly what I am saying.
And he said,
“The first step is to admit we have a problem. We have a problem.”
Can I get a hallelujah? Can I get an amen?
Whoops….forgot a really important point. Nobody on any of my crews were ever afraid to tell me I when I was making a bad call…but frankly, I never did except on the Valdez Fire. And I have admitted my mea culpas on this thread for that one.
As I have proudly written many times on this thread, my crews always called me “Dad.” And that started my first year when I was 23. Nobody called the two crew bosses before me Dad. They were respected, but we didn’t call them Dad. A good dad doesn’t ever risk the lives of his charges, or forbid anyone from telling him when and if he makes a mistake.
The very first fire I ever took my crew on as their crew boss was actually just off our district near Mormon Lake. Our District FMO and my immediate supervisor, the man who made me a crew boss, was also on the fire as the Fire Boss.
After our first shift…he told me, “I want you to bed your crew down here (pointing at the ground) and be ready to go tomorrow morning by 0600. How does that sound to you?”
I gave him my standard response, “Sounds good!” Richard then looked at me like I was as dumb as a bag of rocks and he said, “That sounds like shit to me!” And Richard never raised his voice and very rarely ever used a cuss word, in fact…that was the first one I ever heard him use. He didn’t have to, when Richard spoke, people listened.
Richard went on to say, “Your barracks is just 12 miles down the road where you have a cook to feed your crew dinner and cook them breakfast, and you think eating rats tonight and tomorrow morning by bedding them down here, “Sounds good.”
That was a teachable moment for me from an old school wildland firefighter. Richard was telling me that he expected me to stand up to anyone…even him, when looking out for the best interests of my crew.
I never made that mistake again and I paid for it by being sent home with my crew, the Santa Fe Hotshots, from the Scott Fire in 1983 on the Coronado in Arizona. But I didn’t back down from even the Line Boss and Fire Boss together. Richard would have been proud of me, if he ever heard of that incident, although he was retired by then so he probably didn’t.
And even when I was discussing my failure on the Valdez Fire with one of my former squad bosses after the Yarnell Hill Fire…he said he was okay with what I did because I made the call. But it really wasn’t okay…the entire crew had to run for our lives, in a crew line…together.
Stupid Fuck Dudley was wrong when he wrote that you get to do that 99 times out of every hundred and get away with it. I would like to know what hotshot crew he ran while pulling either an Eric Marsh on the Yarnell Hill Fire or a Gary Olson on the Valdez Fire 99 times and getting away with it.
You might get away with it a few times…maybe? Nobody gets away with it 99 times out of a hundred. And like WTKTT wrote at the time, even if you do…you only get to die once, now that is…logical.
Here is a GREAT photo and Richard and I. It is really hard to tell whether Richard is angry, happy, surprised, disgusted, sad, afraid or joyful in this photo because his facial expression never changed and he always spoke in a quiet voice.
I am guessing however, from my body language and facial expression that I am not particularly enjoying our conversation, nor am I eager to answer him because I am not making direct eye contact, I have my hand in front of my mouth and I am looking up to my left while I try to remember an acceptable answer to whatever question Richard is asking me as I try to tap into the memory part of my brain for recall while he is speaking.
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
I shouldn’t have written, “crazy Colonel Kurtz” because in doing so I glossed over and missed the whole point of the movie. Colonel Kurtz was one of the few people who wasn’t crazy in that scenario. He saw the situation as it really was with brutal honesty.
And so if you take my anology and follow it through to it’s logical conclusion, RTS is one of the few people who is still part of the system who isn’t crazy and is being brutally honest to himself and his values and ideals.
Mike Dudley and his ilk are the crazy and dishonest ones. RTS is just wrong about how most, if not all hotshot crews are managed other than his old crew because he was willing to put some real effort into creating the perfect hotshot crew…in his image.
I kind of got lost in my diarptribe on one point I want to drive home. The Granite Mountain Hotshots weren’t chomping at the bit to bail off that ridge. Look at the last photos and video taken of the crew. It was their normal day off after a long stretch, it was hot, they were tired, thirsty and most of them were hung still hung over if not still under the influence. They would have been more than happy to sit on that ridge and watch that fire storm go by and then move towards the ashes to help pick up the pieces.
They were good Hotshots, not suicidal heroes looking for a place to die. Only one man fit that description in that scenario. None of them should have ever been on that fire that day. And one of them should not have ever been on any fire leading a hotshot crew. There is a long list of complicit people who knew that and that is the story none of them want you to know.
It is the same story that was acted out by Gordon King and Tony Czak and now they are joined in wildland firefighting infamy by Eric Marsh. So…like THE Woodsman wrote, until we first admit there is a problem, we can’t hope to FIX IT!
Whoops, I should have written something about RTS’ vision of TRYING to create the perfect hotshot crew, not my vision. You already know my vision of the perfect hotshot crew;
They should stand up, water up, tool up, saddle up, line up, shut the fuck up, listen up and then hump up the mountain.
Although just for the record, I don’t think I ever told anyone to shut the fuck up, but I do like hyperbole to make a point! And I don’t ever let the facts stand in the way of a good story…or making a good story even better. ::)
Woodsman,
Happy New Year!
You posted that the HS Crews you have worked with “… are all unique in their own right, they share many commonalities – the supe rules.”
I agree totally with this whether directive or participatory leadership.
Someday, you will have the opportunity to work along side the Payson HS and come to realize that they are an outlier.
Yes indeed, we have quite a problem in the entire upper echelon WF community and culture.
Please keep it up on your end until you retire. I’m listening and so are many others. They’re just not as open about it as some of us. And NOBODY is as open about it as Gary.
You will hopefully avoid having to endure many of the trials and tribulations of speaking truth to power, trying to make worthwhile changes, have solid friends and trusted coworkers that will stand beside you and support you and and give you wise counsel.
Remember one of Winston Churchill’s sage counsels:
‘You have enemies? Good. That means you have stood for something in your life.’
That is my favorite Churchill quote, because damn…I have made some enemies in my life and I like to believe it was worthwhile.
And like I have said many times, I share with you so much because you are indeed, my closest friends and confidants. In addition to thr fact I am off the reservation and I’m never going back!
And of course my second most favorite one is,
Winston Churchill once said, “You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else.”
Joy, http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/#comment-470954
I disagree with some of what you said. I think everyone who is anyone in WF or related to WF reads this blog. I don’t think most of those check here on a regular basis or even very often…but they do check. This has been proven time and time again over the past four years with reactions we get here, in emails, and on other sites that include all of the social media platforms where the Yarnell Hill Fire is being discussed or those who have an interest in the fire live their social media lives.
This was most recently clearly demonstrated by what our old friend Full Sail wrote. He said he came here to check us out after reading a reference to this site in his official capacity at work that was within their internal communication. I ask him (here on this blog) what the context was, but he never answered my question. But the point is…he came back here to check up on us because this blog was referenced in some kind of official communication. Perhaps the reason he didn’t respond to my question is because by answering, he would have identified the agency he works for?
For example, if the past indicates what is presently happening, and I believe it does, Holly NEIL’S WF posse emailed her about my recent blunt force trauma attack on John Maclean. She then reported it to him and he came here and read what I wrote as she did. I only hit on the low hanging fruit from his presentation because frankly…I couldn’t listen to very much of it because I found his demeaning, arrogant, condescending and ignorant tone and attitude…made me throw up a little bit in my mouth and pissed me off at the same time.
The same thing is going to happen again because of what I am writing now. And besides that…do you think a professional and very successful author like Mr. Maclean is going to ignore a source like this while researching material for his book? Even if he doesn’t agree with what we have said, this blog is by far the most complete and exhaustive study and collection of facts pertaining to the Yarnell Hill Fire that exists.
I know they have to sort through some of our chaff…or maybe even a lot of our chaff in the process. But…the information and a through analysis of it by a wide range of subject matter experts that include the questions and points made by intelligent and inquisitive readers who aren’t connected to the WF community is here and easily accessible from wherever there is an internet connection, for free.
So…don’t worry, THEY are keeping tabs on this blog, even if all they want to do is feel good about how stupid and wrong they think we are. Although we can’t be wrong about everything…since we use the shotgun approach while firing in all directions which include within our own circle. : )
And I am going to bring this discussion back to my favorite topic…me. There isn’t anybody out there who could look at my education, training, experience, knowledge, skills and abilities and conclude I don’t know what I am talking about. I know what a judge would think and do if I asked for a search warrant based on my “information and belief” given my background. And I know how much weight a jury would place what I testified to under oath regarding what I believe to be true based on my background.
If I am wrong…then may God help the system because whatever else I am, I am a product of that system. And I represent millions of dollars (including salary and expenses for on the job training) that you people paid to get me up to speed to deal with a wide range of problems you either didn’t want to deal with, or couldn’t deal with yourself.
Hells bells…you people paid about 20 grand a year just for me to have a take home vehicle for 18 years (usually a Tahoe, but I could order whatever I wanted every two years) just so I could get up in the middle of the night, or the weekend or in the middle of Thanksgiving dinner and respond to whatever your problem was without first going to the office to pick up my rig and equipment. I wore out at least 9 different vehicles during just my time as a special agent.
And I am by the way, a FLETC trained, certified and experienced Wildland Fire Investigator. I was IT…there were a lot of times I was all you had. I can’t be easily dismissed now just because I am retired and I can tell you what I really think. You may not like how I say it, or what I say…but in general you can’t argue with the validity of what I say without completely undermining the system you completely depend on. Whether it was a thin RED line, or a thin Blue line…I was YOUR line.
Oh…and one more thing. Thank you for the honor of serving you for more than 30 years. I would do it all over again. And I know RTS, Bob and many others who participate here feel the very same way I do, including those who haven’t retired yet like THE Woodsman. May God Bless America (and our Canadian friends)!
As a matter of fact, I just reminded myself of a “no foolin’ story” about responding to one of your problems at a moments notice that happened to me when I was a uniformed law enforcement officer (the ONLY one) for the Santa Fe National Forest. And that was when I didn’t even have a full time take home vehicle.
Although I was often authorized to take my US Forest Service rig home if I either knew or strongly suspected I might need to response quickly. All US Forest Service LEO’s now have really bitchin rigs they do take home with a full light bar, sirens, spotlights, PA system, shotgun and AR-15 locking gun racks etc. with full LE markings. Mine was NOT like that because those were the, “In The Beginning” years.
The Santa Fe National Forest maintained their Forest Fire Cache of fire supplies, several warehouses for other disciplines like surveyors, heavy equipment operators, the hotshot offices and crew headquarters and even the horse stables for the horses the Forest Range Conservationists used for official business along with several good old fashioned “bone yards” where everything was stored in fenced in areas that wasn’t kept inside a warehouse.
This complex was in the middle of Santa Fe bordered by one of the St. John’s College campus’ in Santa Fe, the New Mexico National Guard Artillery Battalion (hundreds of them were captured when the fort on the Philippines island of Corregidor fell at the beginning of WWII for the U.S. and many of them died or were executed during the Batann Death March. And the rest spent the war in Japanese prison camps, so that event is remembered every year in Santa Fe) and a city park that includes a huge soccer field where we did physical training and running every day as hotshots.
All of that complex, including the land the college campus occupies, was originally a giant military hospital complex during WWII. And the old buildings and warehouses the Forest Service used were part of the original hospital or the support for it. It was a great place for a hotshot headquarters the Santa Fe Hotshots still use the last time I checked. And it was all surrounded by an 8′ industrial grade chain link fence.
At the very back of the complex, which was actually outside of the chain link fence, the US Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Laboratory maintained an original house for what…I don’t know since I never saw anyone there? But there were a lot of old nasty chemicals stored there inside that old officers quarters.
So anyway, we went through a period of time when a cult, or a coven, or just a bunch of degenerate Devil worshipers were meeting there where they sacrificed animals (cats and dogs) and some of them were tortured to death by using those chemicals and then burning them at an alter while they carved pentagrams and similar symbols into everything.
And I was determined to catch the little bastards in the act…but they would show up very infrequently and obviously during off hours…like in the middle of the night. So I got a bunch of sensors that were activated by different methods because false signals can and are a real pain in ass to deal with. These sensors included those that used infra red beams, motion detectors and trip wires to be activated. And then a creepy metallic voice would come over a monitor and identify which sensor was going off with an, “Intruder Alert, Sector 9.” That last part was just fluff to make the story better, they really just gave the sensor number.
This went on for a few weeks with nothing but a few false alarms. And then on Christmas Eve, at exactly the stroke of midnight…all hell broke loose on my home monitor and every sensor was going crazy, all at once. So naturally, I thought okay, this is it…this is big one. So I jumped in my beat up old Honda Civic hatchback and raced across town for the complex with my .357 magnum revolver and some speed loaders just in case I had to kill the whole damn coven. I also had a big black police style flashlight that is the reason the U S Border Patrol calls Undocumented Aliens, TONKS. And that is because that is the noise they make when you hit them on the head with that kind of flashlight.
Due to my inexperience and reluctance to ever ask anyone for assistance (like Santa Fe PD) as a result of my U S Forest Service upbringing that conditioned and trained me to believe that only weak people who are unsuitable for the job in the first place ever ask for help or admit they can’t handle the situation with the equipment and personnel at hand.
I had also responded to so many false alarms when just some of the sensors were going off randomly in the preceding weeks, I was just geared to go by myself. That is one thing that experience can teach every person because you eventually realize and relearn that in spite of the history, tradition and culture of the agency, or more specifically the FIRE people within that agency, not everything can or should be handled with just the equipment and personnel on hand and sometimes you do need to ask for help. And if you do…it’s okay.
But I wasn’t there yet…so I went on to that pitch black compound and then into that pitch black house (the electricity wasn’t turned on) alone. I had never been so scared in my life and I swear to God…if some dumb ass kid would have stepped out from a closet, I would have blown a hole right through the middle of him with those .357 magnum hydra shocks at point blank range, I would have been able to put my arm right through him…or her.
And then I would have been in big trouble because I went in there by myself and created the conditions that resulted in some persons (maybe some college kids) death, even if that person would have been a witch or warlock, or a whatever. So anyway…it took me about an hour to begin clearing that house room by room and thank God no none was there by then, that I could find anyway and then they never came back, but they had been there that night.
Case Status; Closed pending further leads. Maybe they saw that huge stainless steel Smith and Wesson .357 magnum revolver (Model 66) with a four inch barrel shaking in my trembling hands and figured the party was over?
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 27, 2017 at 5:52 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> If I am wrong…then may God help the system because
>> whatever else I am, I am a product of that system.
>> And I represent millions of dollars (including salary
>> and expenses for on the job training) that you people
>> paid to get me up to speed to deal with a wide range
>> of problems you either didn’t want to deal with, or
>> couldn’t deal with yourself.
>>
>> Hells bells…you people paid about 20 grand a year just
>> for me to have a take home vehicle for 18 years (usually
>> a Tahoe, but I could order whatever I wanted every two years)
Just thought of a great title for at least ONE of the books that you really ought to write…
“Thank You For My Service”
Thank you, great title.
Clarifications
1. The 20 grand you paid every for me to have a take home vehicle was not the total cost of operating said vehicle. That was just the extra they calculated it cost to allow them to be taken home.
They would periodically go through spasms of threatening to take them away or make us pay tax on the 20 grand. But in the end after they completed their cost benefit studies, they would leave things as they were.
I kinda hoped they would take them away except for when I worked in downtown Phoenix because I drove a long way to work and the underground parking place was really nice. And that is because they were so many restrictions on how those vehicles could be used, and tha only thing they could be used for was official purposes even though they had “cold plates” on them and you couldn’t tell they were G rides because they had undercover grill lights, siren and PA system.
So…if you ever needed to make a stop on the way home you couldn’t because if you got in an accident…the mandatory one time misuse of a government vehicle penalty was immediate termination.
2. I could order any type of vehicle I wanted, specify the color and the options, but the actual vehicle would depend on who had the GSA contract at the time. It was usually Chevrolet, but there were a few years I drove Broncos and one Ramcharger.
I also usually had a Tahoe, but that Cougar we totaled was mine, I tried a Crown Victoria one time because I was driving so many highway miles and I felt sporty one time, so I had a Monte Carlo for a while. And I even had one bad ass jacked up Suburban with a really bitchin lift kit.
All of the US Forest Service LEO’s vehicles I have seen are 3/4 ton full size pickup trucks with lift kits on them, oversized off road tires and big winch bumpers with winches. BLM Ranger vehicles are very similar and they also take those home.
As far as wearing them out, like l have written before, you people own a lot of land scattered over vast areas and the BLM alone manages 200 million acres on your behalf that is worth hundreds of trillions of dollars counting all of the subsurface minerals.
The New Mexico State Office for example, manages over 13 million in New Mexico alone, but they also manage several hundred thousand more acres in the states of Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas and the vast Aneth oil and gas fields in southeast Utah. It takes a lot of driving to get around to protect your land holdings.
3. I am not suggesting you have to accept what I say based on my experience, I am simply saying I can’t be easily dismissed without at least considering what I think.
Everyone is free here to step up to the plate, identify yourself if you can and at least cite your background and experience to support your position and tell us what you think. Hell bells…Joy argues with me about everything and never accepts what I say at face value and sometimes she dismisses me no matter what I say.
We also usually beat every horse to death and then we keep beating the dead horse just to make sure it’s dead while we consider every possible angle and alternative explanation.
For example, by the time RTS and I get done arguing, or I should say debating over whether hotshot crews should be run by participatory versus directive leadership, it will be time for hell to freeze over, but you will be free to most likely decide I am right. But if you are smokin’ crack…you might side with RTS? Or, you are free to come up with your own theory and put that forward for discussion.
4. And as far as my arrogance bordering on hubris goes…you don’t want those who man either your thin red or blue lines not to be confidant they can handle whatever comes out of the tree line do you? I am far from alone with my sense of self worth and confidence.
Take Bob for example, he is convinced he was God’s gift to the Oak Grove Hotshots and he never even cut Hotshot fire line, but that doesn’t stop him from being all he can be and don’t even get him started on his Air Attack qualifications!
And RTS likes to give me a hard time about my ego, but does he come off as an insecure person who lacks confidence in himself to you? I mean…he is wrong about the best way to run a hotshot crew, but he is pretty damn confidant about his position on the subject anyway even though it really doesn’t make much sense.
And the same thing goes for Norb, THE Woodsman and Rocksteady, there isn’t anyone here who doesn’t believe in themselves and their WF abilities. It’s an industry wide phenomenon.
So…don’t be afraid to come out of the shadows and bitch (non gender specific) to our faces, we can take it. Tell us why we are stupid and wrong and maybe you are right and everyone except for Joy may change their minds and in the end, we will have a better product to leave for future generations. I think there are some young people out there today who may eventually want to know the real reasons why their fathers didn’t come home from work on June 30, 2013.
I never felt I was Gods Gift to Oak Grove. It was a job a Great job and I would do it again. And yes I cut line as a Hot shot Squad boss on at least 10 fires with Chilao HS. So I spent 3 years with Oak Grove HS. By 1972 I had 10 years cutting line and working with Engines. I have a grunt background too. In Calif. you did not get to the 6 or 7 level with out Crew Boss Rating and Engine Foreman.
R3 was different RIGHT????
OH YA as asst. I also cut line ran chain saw brush and fell trees. Through dirt dug trenches and Moped up. I wasn’t the Superintendent. I worked with the crew just like any other foreman.
So I assume you are trying to pull my cord.
Also as RTS said below I was a Ass Hole when it came to Safety and grab ass games while on duty. Like you my basic training as a supervisor came from a Master Sargent during the first 4 years with the Forest Service.
So I guess I was a directive Supervisor.
Now see…I knew you could punch up that story, it’s gotten a lot better with my help! Your welcome.
But since I was God’s gift to both the Happy Jack and Santa Fe Hotshots, I guess Bob and I aren’t that much alike after all?
Thank God. We cant all be the same.
I still love you man…even if you are different! In fact, you might even be one of a kind?
Merry Christmas from me
and our hearts go out those loved ones with best wishes for Christmas holidays
And may the Irish God bless everybody.
Happy New Year!
And the same to you and yours Sonny, except I pray Odin and all of the Norse Gods bless you as well. I have also asked Odin for a “killed in battle” waiver for you as well so we can meet and drink in the Great Hall of my people in Valhalla some day. Odin knows how many battles you and I have both valiantly and bravely fought. He understands it’s not our fault we weren’t actually killed in any of them because we damn sure tried our best.
No Joy, there aren’t any good movies on…just some movies. The only thing worse than retirement is going to work. But…if anyone does feel sorry for me, please remit funds immediately and I will go back to Moab ASAP to work some more in battling my Jeep up and down those big red rocks in your name!
Although interestingly enough, I did find a documentary last night on Netflix about “The Big Burn” in Idaho of 1910, which I have mentioned several times on this blog that I am going to watch tonight. I am letting you know about it just in case you have never been bored enough to scroll that far down in their documentary library.
As usual, I have been depending on WTKTT to supply me with pertinent updates on the situation regarding our brother Cory Iverson. I am expecting the worst though, because those fighting wildfires are like grapes, they should come in bunches. And the fact that Cory was alone when he died, tells me automatically there was a big screw up some where, but we shall see…eventually I hope.
I mean…usually more than one WF are killed in any single incident and I think having only one die is in itself an anomaly? The last one I can think of off the top of my head, is the Buchanan Prescribed Burn that got away and was declared an escaped wildfire.
I used to work for Les Buchanan on the Santa Fe who was the architect of the burn, although it happened many years after I left my beloved U.S. Forest Service. Les was the best Fire Behavior Analyst in the nation and probably the world, so I do know that fighting wildfire….even wildfires that were once controlled burns is inherently a dangerous job…but still?
And I may not understand how all current hotshot crews are managed, but after four years of being a student of how the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew was run, I think I understand them as well as anyone could who never worked with them. And that is because like I have written before, I recognized a long time ago, they were in many ways a mirror of my crews. Starting with the fact that both Marsh and I were called “Dad” by our crews. Although in my case, different variations of that honorary title were also used such as “poppa” or “pappy.”
And in both of our cases, we didn’t create the system, we simply played the hands we were dealt. Most of YOU people created it, or it was created for you and in your name, so you own it. In addition, I do have a news flash for you as well…there are a lot more hotshot crews out there just like Granit Mountain and my old crews who are operating on borrowed time thanks to almost everyone’s refusal to even acknowledge the problem exists, much less take affirmative and meaningful corrective steps and preventive actions to do everything they can to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Because as I have also written many times…once is an anomaly (the Loop Fire) twice is a coincidence (the Battlement Creek Fire); but three times is a pattern ( the Yarnell Hill Fire).
And yes…I do understand Cory was probably working with an engine on that fire, but normally being killed in bunches also includes engine crews….see the Esperanza Fire.
Oh…and one more thing. If I find out Cory died because he was not trained in the limitations of his fire shelter and he deployed it in an area that wasn’t survivable, I am really going to be…upset.
FYI – And as a reminder, Sonny worked in the same underground uranium mine where my father was killed.
I remember early on learning about brotherhood from hikes with Fernanda Santos of NY Times
and listening to Phillip Maldonado and others about the GMHS and your fire industry of brotherhood …
we are all members of the same Divine family. We have to understand the needs of other individuals in order to assist them as part of our service to one another.
As we learn to give, so must we also learn to receive, thereby achieving the necessary balance for our lives….so what does it mean really that Bill Gabbert did not post your comment…why take the energy to call names vs call out what it is he did not post…
to me the essence of life is not who can or who cannot but ensuring when you cannot, I can…or when I cannot, you can…that to me is brotherhood…so help me understand when these men were on that mountain top same as me and they have this brotherhood then why in error in which way their directional paths ended up happening —why remain and burn out in a dense vegetation box canyon around you versus running to those boulders…there is a serious element I am not understanding after all these years…we know what Bruce and others saw…why not share…put the litigation and liabilities aside and just share…those who have not shared who should will understand I really did give them a chance and there will be no turning back…sorry…I know everything I have done has come back to me with repercussions…You cannot escape the consequences of your actions. What you do comes back to you. Alright…you all have the greatest Holidays— Merry Christmas and Happy New Year—Gary had the right idea—where is my blanket and dvd….movie time….good night
Sow a thought
you reap an act.
Sow an act,
you reap a habit.
Sow a habit,
you reap a character.
Sow a character,
you reap a consequence.
Wildfire today…
Bill has banned me from posting…
35 plus years fighting fire and the bald headed chicken pluckers won’t let me post reality..
Typical head in the sand… Nothing to see here.. move on..
What a dick…
Jason Hershberger – FF/EMT came by the water company when I was talking with Bri and he shared to us his popcorn from h t t p s:/ / http://www.chefsshoppe.c o m /popcorn-menu/ (Pizza) (try also Beer)
—it does take like pizza from Chicago versus pizza flavored
h t t p :/ /wildfiretoday.c o m/ is a nice area — great place to visit for data to then go reach other data..alot of my foias made could not be possible if that site did not exist (also “E” is the core to my knowing of foias) because it was a great learning tool and still is to further my education on the industry plus I do love alot of the aerial data…I am infatuated with the aerial areas indeedbecause of my family roots.
so I am sorry your comment never made it…yet you can make it here and post link to where it was to be on wildfire today.
maybe he is on Holiday vacation and has comments set on moderation only
and has not viewed it yet
and not yet posted…that could be an option
but I really cannot see him until it is fact checked that he banned you unless he said it behind the scenes direct to you said you were banned
but maybe it was just the comment not you that was not posted…
so what did you say—you already said bald headed chicken pluckers on IM and was not banned so what got you allegedly banned on WildfireToday?
Inquiring minds want to know….
I was taken back you of all folks used “what a dick..”…https://youtu.be/heBvS3NajiY…
what it sounded like to me was when I use to jump the gun on Holly Neill on wildfire today and here vs going direct to her behind the scenes back in 2014 when she wrote that article but I believe it was because early on people got in my ears but Holly was amazing as she did not have to explain anything to me but she lives far away and she spoke to me “in person” to go over the things I was getting incoming….
so I Rocksteady have jump the gun at times on areas versus breathe in and breathe out and just chill but at times this whole fire stuff can get at me and it can be REAL frustrating…especially when books/films come out that I have document that prove they are just another narrative area (sigh)
and I am praying the presentation of John MacLean was just a light hearted insert and he learned from it that there is a bigger platform he is to fill then just comic relief of a tragedy and as well fact check data and really get to know certain areas as if it was without a doubt ingrained in him…
his opinion on us was just to be “funning” but the disturbing parts was taking the purity out of my original photos and sharing his story which did not match to that weekend so maybe he did not spend the proper time with me because I have alot of data since that weekend that solidifies my testimony no matter the glaze of anyone….
I can guarantee there is no entity at this date that can challenge me as I have been pure…and with eyebrow raised on left with confident certain elvis curled lip look…and as well very well documented at this point too….while others made movies and books I went fact digging….and will never make a profit but I will hope to see change in the way they do these fires—
Purity is NOT about what one decides NOT to do…it is about bringing forth T R U T H S
even if you like someone or do not like in this research on fires (YHF or any) and they do wrong you expose all areas to properly assess…I have exposed my flaws as well fixed my problem areas and currently publicly displaying it all publicly in a manner that is a challenge for me but I want to continue to show ; guarantee not for ego…could care less…The essential thing is to be honest.
There is many times I pre-warned certain areas and they do not realize the world is ever-changing and if I got funds outside what I need to buy diapers and house stuff— if my day comes when I have added funds or endless funds then I will guarantee my monies focus would be a huge exposing party internationally because I believe and have faith and hope that people are just living life avoiding some very important realities…and I do seem to think some are just now waking up…
when you said what a dick…Rocksteady…not to cock block ya but I just want to know a little more data…I guess because I do…
Thank you, thank you, thank you Rocksteady for letting us even know though a comment did not make it over at Bill’s—I have had that happen at times…but there was always an explanation…
Just wanted to say I love what you’re doing. So powerful. Alot of people do not even know how amazing you are…I DO…you have rippled your way into my life and I thank you so much…Merry Christmas…Joyeux Noël…eh…
I looked up bald headed chicken pluckers and this was all I could find:
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bald%20Headed%20Chicken%20Fucker
THAT’S CRAZY
Is that Canadian talk? Is there a whole village of these folks Rocksteady?
soft smiles-
He banned me 2 years ago.
Welcome to the CLUB
There are certain comments if you feel need to be addressed then just back channel him because I was very shocked when I saw some of my own comments did not make it right away due to moderator system and when they did it was edited but it is his site and his audience so the way to address that is not form a club but say the link you commented and what comment did not make it….when I hear clubs…I envision nothing good comes from it and no lessons learned…bring up the areas he is not allowing…that’s the important part. ESPECIALLY for people like Diane Lomas and myself who do not have the background like you 2…us people need to know what’s being filtered.
I cannot see a man who spent his life in the industry and retired and still educating folks and making the dedicated time for the world deserves the label WHAT A DICK…
breathing in and out on this one but then again I have been like that on here…frustrated…you never saw me even call John MacLean a dick or what a dick or anything to that nature because I know he used actual words and just made it his way…no different than a moderated system site putting out only certain stuff…if you made a comment to Bill with proper source versus humble opinion I do see him posting and when the exposing party of mine happens I do see him selecting what he needs of my content to cover it yet I know it will be placed out in best way he needs to..
So I did get moderated but I won’t be saying join the club…
Bob did have that happen too and I did forget the explanation that was given but it was discussed.
Rocksteady…again what was left out on wildfiretoday that Bill rejected or has not yet seen the comment due to Holiday moderated system vacation
He Banned me because I disagreed with him. He said he would not allow his Blog to be like IM. I guess he thinks he is more pure.
Bob Powers-
this has zip to do with his site being more pure-
come on.
really,
Would you allow your wildfire page you made have alot of the stuff that lays on IM…for sure I would edit alot of JOY A COLLURA’s comments-
and some of Gary’s rants on RTS and Bob and vice versa
but who cares
“whatever”
it is his page
I am proud Bill never gave up on sharing a webpage on your industry and I wish more men like yourselves had a site—
oh yeah Gary does: http://ourfiregods.com/
Gary, would you let me or one of the GMHS loved ones write what we wanted on that link above without your say?
hee hee
You missed the point Joy. He absolutely dose not like any negative reply’s………….. He will not agree to even allow me back if I do not say any negative things. spent several Emails to him about this.
He is a Ass Hole. Its his blog he can do what he wants. When it comes to Granit Mountain they get a free pass just like the investigation No one did any thing wrong. ..
Wildfire Today
I went fishing (digging) to see what is going on with this topic.
Comments are closed is quite often found on his page not like here where a year later the same thread is open.
Then I began to search for Rocksteady
to see what area could of made him state what he did
because Rocksteady is the coolest so I am thinking there has to be something to it IF he is saying THAT about Bill….
Bill Gabbert always came off as a man who wants the world to talk about widlfires education and news and opinions—I guess I was taken back that he would ban someone…maybe some sensitive topics maybe…
and I felt Bill wanted to discuss HOW can we make these FFs safe out there so Jim Roth and David Turbyfill and others like them do not have to face this again
so I did find a few comments from our Canadian commenter
and you know what it confirms to me Rocksteady is spot on…
he is right so maybe things did happen outside my rainbows and unicorn outlook on life so I apologize Rocksteady and the rest here-
it is just I have alot of respect for Bill as it showed in my replies and felt maybe there was more to it
but I believe Gary Olson’s book on the hybrid FF really will show alot we need to know…right Gary…will it be in Chinese?
So anyways Gary—no I am not a 拍马屁 (pāi mǎ pì)….just a gal who has alot of admiration for alot of you fellas who are taking the time to share about fires so us people not in the industry can learn….I appreciate you all so much…Like you said I am one hard one to deal with…
some day some day (maybe)- 有钱就是任性! (yǒu qián jiù shì rèn xìng!)
last statement I saw by
Rocksteady says:
November 26, 2015 at 5:10 pm
Totally preventable.
Do not, ever, put your people in that sort of a vulnerable position.
Wrong on so many levels…
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/11/22/twisp-river-fire-report-released-as-injured-firefighter-leaves-hospital/
rocksteady says:
August 20, 2015 at 3:24 pm
Sometimes the best thing to do during extreme fire behaviour, is to do nothing at all.
Condolences to those lost and injured…
h t t ://wildfiretoday.c m/2015/08/20/not-enough-firefighters-available-for-the-70000-acres-burning-in-the-twisp-washington-area/
Rocksteady says:
February 15, 2016 at 8:21 pm
Killing 3 firefighters is not acceptable….
(Review of the 2015 wildfire season in the Northwest)
I just want to say Charlie “Irish You A Merry Christmas”…may each sunrise hold more promise and each sunset hold more peace for you…enjoy…
Joy,
The answer to that question is totally irrelevavt because I do not have a blog on my website where anyone can comment about anything including a public discussion, or debate about the Yanell Hill Fire.
If I did however, I would certainly encourage those who disagreee with me to post there, I would however, like to know their background so I can ascertain how much weight to put on what they say and I would like them to explain why they disagree with me giving specific rationale.
Yeah but you must agree/admit
Wtktt
is
just an avatar but a lot of the reason people keep coming back is for the one who is not known of their background who has given very resourceful data
Agreed?
Yes…but WTKTT doesn’t claim any particular expertise, especially in wildland firefighting. What he has always offered is information, intelligence and analysis based on pure logic.
If he is not Artificial Intelligence, he is at least some kind of extraterrestrial alien like First Officer and Science Officer Spock of Starfleet Command who lacks human emotions.
If however, we were studying a failed mission of the USS Enterprise and WTKTT was offering any of the above mentioned services based on his service to the Federation, I would expect him to state his specific and related credentials.
This, however Gary, is inconsistent with the fact that the significance component of appreciation appears to require the positive capacity for emotion and in the history of this site WTKTT has indeed had emotions—many times showing his gratitude to us.
Many times he has said thank you
and showed the EMOTION “appreciation”-
more than once…
and significantly I do remember
WantsToKnowTheTruth says EMOTIONS
on November 28, 2014 at 8:58 pm
with his gratitude of words…
gratitude has its origins as a distinct emotion. Typically, the feeling lasts for only a few seconds, as a recognition of the intentional, beneficial actions of others.
Gratitude is a personality trait, a mood, and an emotion.
it is argued that gratitude/appreciation, a central theoretical concept in many contemporary approaches to competence, has important emotive components that are seldom sufficiently recognized or acknowledged.
I want to take the time out and recognize and acknowledge I believe WTKTT has emotions…and has shown them here.
Happiest New Years…it is such great year…
Hmmmmm, whenever a machine that has been programmed to say, “Thank you” to me, actually says “Thank you” to me, I don’t take it personal or attribute that automatic response as human emotions being present in that machine.
Nor am I saying WTKTT is always right in his analysis, sometimes it’s a case of garbage in…garbage out, other times it is probably just a flawed or incomplete programming that doesn’t account for some variables.
IBM’s Deep Blue finally beat reigning World Chess Champion Garry Kasparov, but it didn’t happen until the mid 90’s. And the good Lord knows our task of sorting out the truth of the Yarnell Hill Fire is harder than beating Kasparov because there are so many layers of lies, deceit, and obfuscation by almost everyone.
But…WTKTT does a pretty good job (unlike me) in keeping the normal human emotion dips out of his work on behalf of an ungrateful wildland firefighting community. Emotions like anger, grief, revenge, pettiness, and even happiness. It’s all pretty much matter of fact…or “Just the facts ma’am” as Dective Sergeant Joe Friday always says.
And I expect to get extra debate points for all of the Pop Culture references and obscure facts that I manage to include with my posts. It makes them more interesting…don’t you think?
Rocksteady, welcome to the Banned by Richard Cranium Bill club. Have you noticed there is no substantive Wildfire Today mission statement or real poster or Author Guidelines?
He banned me long ago for anything that was at all controversial, especially if it had to do with the YH Fire and the GMHS.
Gary O- come on now—“honey hush”—that’s rough—I see Bill in a different way and no I do not have my head up my ass or my head so high up in the skies nor am I glazed above the Northern Lights…I appreciate his site and the energy to keep it going and again HIS site so who cares if it is not a freedom to share like here…I do not care….I doubt Bill ever reads here even if he was led here…I would think he would think why waste the energy or feed into it— you all feel the way you do and that’s it….just like John MacLean feels how he does and how irrelevant the hikers were June 30 2013 and that we “oh my” took photos and the way he said it made it sound off like we were ordered off the mountain…we were not just that specific area so they can drop slurry drop…but he made it seem like a wrong versus being proud that we historically showed the placement of terrain and vehicle and people and that red flags me as strange too because in the end John MacLean will see how relevant I become to that tragedy thanks to his recent encouragement. I have already set in motion some areas to come to commercial fruition….and I will give him all the credit….but never in this do I have any ill thought or action for anyone…this is a tough journey…my only focus is to keep pushing facts and TRUTHS to the forefront…never will change…
MY REPLY IS IN CAPS THROUGHOUT AND BOLD BUT NOT MEANT TO MAKE STATEMENT JUST SO YOU KNOW WHO IS WHO
Robert the Second says
DECEMBER 22, 2017 AT 2:47 PM
Rocksteady, welcome to the Banned by Richard Cranium Bill club. Have you noticed there is no substantive Wildfire Today mission statement or real poster or Author Guidelines? I DID REMEMBER HE USE TO HAVE A BIO PAGE ON THERE AND SO MAYBE IT IS GOING THROUGH CHANGES. WHATEVER THE CASE IS PLACE YOURSELF RTS WHO KNOWS ALL KINDS OF FOLKS IN THE INDUSTRY AND YOU STARTED YOUR OWN WILDFIRE WEBSITE NOT HERE ON IM AND YOU STARTED TO SEE ME ON YOUR SITE WRITING WHATEVER I WANTED…I CAN GUARANTEE YOU IF I HAD A SITE I WOULD NOT ALLOW ME ON THERE AT FREE WILL BECAUSE I RAMBLE (sigh)…I WOULD EMAIL MY EXPECTATIONS FOR ME AND EXPECT IT TO BE SUCH WAY SO CLARITY IS SHOWN VERSUS CIRCLE TALKS OR WHATEVER THE CRAP I DO. (woo hoo) I CAN GO OFF ON TOPICS LIKE POPCORN AND ALL KINDS THAT HAVE ZIP TO DO WITH YHF BUT YARNELL DID FACE ANOTHER FIRE LAST NIGHT…THE PURDUE FAMILY LOST THEIR HOME….SONNY AND I HELPED THEM MOVE THERE INTO THE HOME JULY 2013 SO IT WAS SAD TO HEAR THIS NEWS ON SUCH A VERY COLD NIGHT….THEY HAD SOMEONE ON THE SCANNER TALKING (FF) CHAOTIC AND JIBBERISH AND NOT COHERENT AND LOCALS WERE LIKE ????? WHAT’S GOING ON ???? (RIGHT NEAR MANZANITA….22860 S Lakewood Dr-.82 ACRES…GONE FOREVER THE HOME…THESE FOLKS IN THEIR 70S DISPLACED RIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS…SEND THEM YOUR PRAYERS TO PO BOX 335 YARNELL AZ 85362) BUT INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW CAN A LOCAL ASK FOR RADIO TRANSMISSIONS THEY HEAR ON THE SCANNER- IS THEIR A TRANSCRIPT OR JUST AS YOU HEAR IT- THAT WAS IT…NO FIGURING OUT WHAT CHAOS HAPPENED????…THEN I SADLY HAVE TO REPORT YET AGAIN ANOTHER DEATH…REMEMBER THOMPSON WHO WAS CRIMINALLY CHARGED FOR THE BURN BARREL THIS SUMMER…WHAT A MESS FOR HIM…AND DURING THIS ARRAIGNMENT MOMENTS…HIS WIFE LEARNED SHE HAD A VERY BAD CANCER SO BAD SHE IS NO LONGER WITH US ANYMORE…I AM GLAD I AM ONE OF THE LAST ONES TO GET ONE OF HER BEAUTIFUL SNAIL MAIL LETTERS OF HOW SHE WAS GLAD THE 2 OF THEM SPENT MORE TIME TOGETHER TRAVELLING…NICE…YEAH I DO RAMBLE BUT IN THOSE RAMBLES USUALLY HAVE A WORD OR 2 THAT HAVE ANY MEANING…USUALLY :;
He banned me long ago for anything that was at all controversial, especially if it had to do with the YH Fire and the GMHS. I UNDERSTAND HIS POINTS THERE— IT IS HIS PAGE AND WOULD YOU RTS ALLOW ANYTHING ON YOUR PAGE IF YOU HAD ONE? I KNOW I WOULD NOT HAVE ONE SO FREE LIKE IM…JUST FOR AN EXAMPLE…I POSTED MY VLOG BECAUSE MY VLOG IS INCOMING STUFF AND SO I SET IT TO PRIVATE RECENTLY BASED ON INCOMING STUFF WE HAD SO I FIGURED THE WORLD DOES NOT NEED TO KNOW THAT BUT MY BROTHERS AND FAMILY CAN OR THE WEEK I SPENT TIME WITH SOMEONE SONNY KNEW GROWING UP AND THEY DID NOT WANT ME SHARING OUR VISIT SO THAT ONE IS PRIVATE BUT NONE OF THEM ARE ON PRIVATE BECAUSE I WANT IT PRIVATE IT WAS USUALLY TO RESPECT ANOTHER EITHER FROM HERE OR A GMHS LOVED ONE…BUT I DO PREFER TO JUST SAY IT ALL BUT I KNOW SOME AREAS SOME PREFER TO KEEP PRIVATE AND BACK CHANNELED AND THROUGHOUT THIS I CANNOT TELL YOU THE MANY PEOPLE I HAVE GIVEN THE REAL NAMES YET ARE AVATARS AND THEY WILL GO TO MY GRAVE AS JUST AN AVATAR AND I RESPECT THEM AND THEIR PART IN THIS SO YES AT TIMES I DO BELIEVE IT SHOULD BE WITH GUIDELINES AND I THINK IT DOES STATE IT SOMEWHERE BUT I DO NOT THINK ALL OF YOU ARE BANNED JUST MAYBE SOME CONTENT…YOU ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO FEEL AS YOU DO BECAUSE YOU HAVE ALOT OF YEARS IN THE INDUSTRY BUT MAYBE BILL GABBERT CAN BACK CHANNEL YOU ALL WHERE HE DOES NOT SEE IT FITTING INTO THE SITE AND WHY OR MAYBE HE IS BUSY DOING WHAT RETIRED FOLKS DO AND DOES NOT WANT TO SPEND SO MUCH ENERGY ON YHF AND STUFF WHEN HE SEES HOW IT IS ROLLING WITH NARRATIVE FICTIONAL BOOKS THEN THE MOVIE…I WAS GLAD WHEN DONUT WAS ASKED ABOUT THE RATTLER SCENE- I WANTED THAT TO BE SHOWN SO PEOPLE “AWAKE” SAW THERE IS MANY AREAS THAT MOVIE HAD FACTUAL ERRORS—HAS ANYONE AND I ASK SERIOUS TAKING THE TIME OUT OF YOUR LIFE TO FACT CHECK AND SEE THE SURVIVOR’S DONUT’S BACKGROUND AND WHEN AND IF HE GRADUATED AS HE STATED IN BOOK AND MOVIE—HOW MANY CERTIFICATIONS DOES DONUT HAVE LAYING IN HIS FILE? (IF ANY?) HOW MANY OF YOU PERSONALLY HAVE IN HAND THE PAYROLL RECORDS OR ANYTHING TO FACT CHECK WHAT IS BEING FED OUT…SPEND LESS TIME DOGGING ONE OF YOUR OWN IN THE INDUSTRY AND BE GRACIOUS WE ALL HAVE A PLACE LIKE INVESTIGATIVEMEDIA TO SHOW GEORGE CARLIN HE WAS WRONG WHEN HE SAID HE LOVES AMERICA – WHERE THE FREEDOMS USE TO BE BECAUSE JOHN DOUGHERTY LETS US ALL SPEAK OUR WAY AND DOES NOT SAY I DO NOT LIKE YOUR STYLE AND OFF YOU GO—HE DOES TAKE AND REMOVE FOLKS WHO HAVE HASSLED HERE BUT AS WELL BEHIND THE SCENES AND THOSE WERE VERY FEW IF ANY…SO TAKE TIME OUT AND DONATE TO JOHN TO SHOW YOUR APPRECIATIONS FOR YOUR FREEDOMS HERE…
Bill Gabbert is without a doubt a real douchebag and an embarrassment to all former hotshots, even R-5 hotshots and the fabled Oak Grove Hotshots. I think he should be banned for life from ever telling anyone he was a hotshot. I however, am very proud of the fact that I never gave him a chance to ban me, because I never thought his blog was worth any of my time. I learned a long time ago, you should never cast your pearls before swine.
In case anybody is wondering what I am doing this weekend other than watching movies half the night and napping half the day….I am working on a MOAP as a rebuttal to my old friend RTS.
I am however….taking my time because like many of our discussions, the best methodology for running a hotshot crew has really taken on an inevitable pattern of circular arguments. In fact, other than RTS and I disagreeing on whether he and his crew were shirkers on the Murdock Basin Fire of 1988 high up in the Wasatch Mountains and we had to pick up their slack, our disagreement on this subject is probably first on the list.
I do think however, it is worth spending some time on because the answer to this question is THE underlying reason why a hotshot crew marched in front of a firestorm of Biblical proportions. I am just hoping I don’t get distracted…again.
In the meantime, here is a YouTube video from one of the best movies ever made (that I was recently reminded of) just make you smile. And if we don’t communicate before Christmas….I want to wish all of the participants here a very Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzsNh3-FnHQ
OK…I get two links so here is one more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncbEucjsNFU
Like I said…I’m more the Big Joe type.
The RTS comment I am struggling to respond to is here;
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/#comment-473351
Oh…and one more thing. Speaking of douchebags, wayyyyy downstream, I told WTKTT that I thought the hotshot crew in the movie about Granite Mountains, called Granite Mountain “douchebads”, instead of what he thought they called them.. We were both wrong…after watching the movie I heard them call the crew, “deuces”, which must be a slur based on the fact they were a Type II crew instead of a Type IA?
I personally never heard that slur used during back in the day, but we established a long time ago that my hotshot experience differs quite a bit (I started off saying I thought it was pretty much the same) from what is happening today.
What do you think RTS…is Big Joe a “participatory leader” or a “directive leader”?
Joy…I give up, why did you need to know if I speak Chinese?
Whoops,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQM9JSux3Ew&index=42&list=PLXZ9rVmNvNrqHhE2VWVhb9rjcCNfBceXy
OK…just one more, I hope.
I found a clip of how a hotshot crew that is run in a “participation leadership” style looks like on R&R.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwqxrY59RqE
Full Disclosure
None of my comments are intended to disparage, sully, or otherwise cast a shadow on the vaulted reputation of RTS or the storied Payson Hotshots. After all, they did have the coolest hardhats in the nation, nay I say…the world!
Sgt. Oddball and his boys could be all business when there was work to be done!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC4lVoCFZvk
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I found a clip of how a hotshot crew that is run
>> in a “participation leadership” style looks like on R&R.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwqxrY59RqE
He is SO PROUD when he says…
“These are my boys!”
Hilarious.
Gary,
I think Big Joe would be a “directive leader’ because that’s all he seems to know, however, he might work out to be a good “participatory leader” with time and experience and challenges.
Smooth seas don’t make good sailors. African or Chinese proverb depending on Internet hit
by the time your book is published it is possible you might want it to be written in Chinese is all
soft giggles
With Donald Trump as our President, I should write it using Cyrillic script. With him running the country, Russian is probably the language of the future.
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 22, 2017 at 9:42 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>>
>> Oh…and one more thing. Speaking of douchebags,
>> wayyyyy downstream, I told WTKTT that I thought the
>> hotshot crew in the movie about Granite Mountains,
>> called Granite Mountain “douchebags”, instead of what
>> he thought they called them..
>>
>> We were both wrong…
>>
>> after watching the movie I heard them call the crew,
>> “deuces”, which must be a slur based on the fact they
>> were a Type II crew instead of a Type IA?
Yes… we were both wrong.
The actor playing Eric Marsh ( Josh Brolin ), wasn’t insulting his own crew by calling them “losers” and/or “douches”.
The insult he was using was, in fact, the word “deucers” ( as in… just a lowly Type 2 crew ).
The word they put in Marsh/Brolin’s mouth could have been ‘carrots’ and the point I made previously about all this still stands.
At that point in the movie… the script writers needed to showthat THEIR ‘Eric Marsh’ felt like just being a lowly Type 2 crew was like being the dirt beneath the feet of the illustrious, glorious, super-duper ‘Type 1’ crews.
For the 2 hour movie plot to make sense… the screenwriter(s) decided that movie-goers had to be made to believe that Type 2 crews were, essentially, worthless.
And it worked. People left the theaters believing that.
Even the line out of Marsh/Brolin’s mouth about how his lowly, Type 2 crew (quote) “won’t even be able to set foot on the fireline” was complete and total horseshit… but helped to drive THEIR little fillum along.
For a movie that said it was supposed to be ‘honoring’ ALL Wildland Firefighters, they still found a way to INSULT the thousands and thousands of brave, ass-busting men and women on Type 2 crews all over the nation just to push their own 2-hour plotline along.
Shame on them.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> I personally never heard that slur used during back in the day,
>> but we established a long time ago that my hotshot experience
>> differs quite a bit (I started off saying I thought it was
>> pretty much the same) from what is happening now.
Someone ( anyone? ) correct me if I am wrong… but I don’t think anyone is actually using that phrase today, either.
I think that was just something screenwriter Ken Nolan ( who also wrote the script for the military movie Blackhawk Down ) ‘made up’ just for the movie.
The only thing in any Dictionary ( Regular, Slang or Urban ) about ‘deucers’ would be stuff like the following…
1. Someone who weighs over 200 pounds.
2. A double-shot of hard alcohol.
3. Going to the bathroom for a ‘number 2’ versus a ‘number 1’.
4. Hitting a baseball really, really hard.
5. Getting arrested for a DUI / DWI.
6. A two dollar bill.
Yada, yada.
Nothing about it being commonly used by any organization to refer to the status level of any kind of ‘crew’ or ‘unit’.
Scriptwriter Ken Nolan just needed a quick derogatory phrase for ‘Type 2’ Wildland Crews… and seems to have just made up the slur ‘deucers’ for the movie.
In his first ADOSH interview, Darrell Willis was asked to give a brief synopsis of how the original Prescott ‘Crew 7′ Fuels Crew ( local work only ) turned into ( first ) a Type 2 crew… and then ( later ) into a Type 1 crew.
Willis’ says it was simply all about proving that the ‘business model’ could work, and that the crew could PAY for itself.
The way Willis describes it ( to the ADOSH investigators ), is that once they proved being a Type 2 crew could end up ‘making a little money’… then the decision to go for Type 1 status was just a “What the heck” next step to the better MONEY that can be made being a Type 1 crew.
Nothing ‘heroic’.
Nothing about it being anyone’s ‘dream’.
Nothing about any dissatisfaction about just being a Type 2 crew ( ‘deucers’ ).
It was just a logical ‘Why not try it’ BUSINESS decision.
A way to make MORE MONEY and keep the program paying for itself.
From ADOSH’s first sit-down interview with Darrell Willis on August 19, 2013
PDF page 38 ( of 62 pages )…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A: Darrell Willis, Prescott Wildland Division Chief
————————————————————————————
A: And so Eric came to work for us a full-time employee and we talked about it and we got to the Type 2 IA level, uh, and we were able to prove the business model worked. We could make a little money, we weren’t gouging people. Under the National contract for, uh – we were charging less than the National Type 2 IA crews. We said, “Well, gosh, we got – we got full-time employees, we got this, we’ve got equipment. Why don’t we go to the next step?”
Q1: Mm-hm.
A: – take it to the Type 1 status. We had the full time employees, we – we met everything and so we did a – a year of, uh, training as a training crew in 2007. Had three s- different superintendents go along with us on, uh…
Q1: Who – who were those?
A: Jeff Andrew was one. Uh, he’s with Prescott.
Q1: Uh-huh.
A: Um, I’m trying to think who the other guy was. There was two others, and I can’t remember the other two. But they…
Q1: So they essentially went on assignments with them and – and signed off…
A: Just watched them.
Q1: Signed off on their task books as accomplishing all the things their…
A: The Interagency Hotshot Crew has a standard – uh, guidelines. And they have to be evaluated in these certain areas, and they did those evaluations.
Q1: Oh, okay.
————————————————————————————–
Followup…
Notice in Darrell Willis’ summary above ( to the ADOSH investigators ), that he never mentions Duane Steinbrink… Prescott’s FIRST Wildland Division Chief.
Regarding the MOVIE that was made… there has always been ( and still remains ) a lot of confusion about the ROLE these TWO men played ( Steinbrink and Willis ) in the creation of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
At no time in the movie is there ever any mention of anyone named Darrell Willis.
At no time ( in any of his ADOSH interviews ) does Darell Willis EVER mention anyone named Duane Steinbrink.
In his ADOSH interviews… Darrell Willis takes COMPLETE credit for the creation of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and makes it sound like every decision to move ‘up the ladder’ from a local Fuels Crew, to a self-sustaining Type 2 job-out crew… to ( finally ) a high-dollar Type 1 Crew was the result of ;decisions; being made by JUST him and Eric Marsh.
In the MOVIE…. the opposite is true.
The MOVIE contends that this ;up the ladder’ movement was ONLY the result of decisions being made by someone named Duane Steinbrink in conjunction with Eric Marsh.
Darrell Willis was the top-level Prescott Fire Chief when HE ( Willis ) decided to create the position of ‘Wildland Division Chief’ in the Prescott Fire Department… and it was Willis himself who ‘hired; Steinbrink to be Prescott;s FIRST Wildland Division Chief.
Whatever organizational decisions Duane Steinbrink was making as that FIRST Wildland Division Chief still had to pass muster with his BOSS… Darrell Willis.
The MOVIE goes nowhere near that reality.
I still think the reason there is absolutely NO mention of anyone named Darrell Willis iin the MOVIE is because Willis himself probably REFUSED permission early on for his ;name; and.or ‘likeness’ to be used, in any way, shape or form, in this blatant commercialization of the Yarnell tragedy.
As for Willis himself choosing to NEVER mention the name ;Duane Steinbrink’ in ANY of his various interviews… I think that was Darrell Willis simply just trying to keep Steinbrink ;out of it and spare HIM from being dragged in for any post-tragedy interviews.
Duane Steinbrink SHOULD have been officially ‘interviewed’ by both the SAIT and by ADOSH investigators.
He never was.
The term “Duece” to refer to a Type 2 Crew is common and has been in certain circles for several years now.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
December 23, 2017 at 11:27 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The term “Duece” to refer to a Type 2 Crew is common
>> and has been in certain circles for several years now.
Thank you.
So perhaps screenwriter Ken Nolan had access to these ‘certain circles’ and didn’t make that up after all.
Just curious… what ( exactly ) do you mean by :”certain circles”?
Only certain regions and/or certain parts of the country?
Only ‘management circles’?
Something else?
The screenwriter was definitely not making it up
Only within the Western US WF and no ‘management circles that I am aware of.
Thanks again.
Gary said:In case anybody is wondering what I am doing this weekend other than watching movies half the night and napping half the day….I am working on a MOAP as a rebuttal to my old friend RTS.
any good movies worth watching?
**
** R.I.P. CORY IVERSON – UPDATE
**
** HE WAS ALONE WHEN HE MADE HIS OWN MAYDAY CALL
The wagons have fully circled regarding the death of Cory Iverson at the Thomas Fire.
Officials are still not releasing ANY details of the circumstances surrounding his death.
Not even to his family ( except for one detail… see below ).
But at least two things have ( apparently ) been confirmed.
1. Autopsy results say Cory Iverson died from “thermal injuries ( burns ) and smoke inhalation”.,
2. Cory Iverson himself was the one who sent out his own MAYDAY call that morning before he died… and he was ALONE when he did so.
Unlike their wildland-only firefighter counterparts… these HYBRID wildland firefighters from municipal fire departments ARE, in fact, fully trained and rehearsed on how to make a proper MAYDAY call if/when they need to.
The ’cause of death’ from the autopsy results first appeared in the LA Times.
The confirmation about the MAYDAY call ( that it was Iverson himself sending it ) comes from the mother of Iverson’s widow, Ashlee…..
KSBW – Channel 8 – Salinas, California
Article Title: Wife of fire engineer killed in Thomas Fire is from Carmel Valley
http://www.ksbw.com/article/wife-of-fire-engineer-killed-in-thomas-fire-is-from-carmel-valley/14443052
———————————————————————————————————
Cory Iverson was married to Ashlee Iverson.
Ashlee’s mother Gwen Urgo. “I never thought something like this could happen,” she said. The family is “doing the best we can,” Urgo told KSBW Action News 8.
Cory Iverson was an engineer with a state engine strike team based in San Diego. He had been with the state since 2009.
“All we’ve heard is that he sent out a mayday and he was alone,” Urgo says.
Fire Chief Ken Pimlott of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection has not provided any details about the death but said it was under investigation by an accident review team.
———————————————————————————————————
This statement from deceased firefighter Cory Iverson’s mother-in-law sort of ‘jumped off the page’…
Ashlee Iverson’s mother, Gwen Urgo, said…
“I never thought something like this could happen,”
Seriously? Never?
That statement represents quite a ‘disconnect’.
What did she think he was doing when he went to work?… even during the seven years he spent working for the Elfin Forest ./ Harmony Grove Fire department?
Just washing and polishing the engines?
Given the quantity, size and ferocity of the wildfires this season ( especially in California )… it’s a miracle even MORE firefighters haven’t been killed.
Agreed there.
How many READ INSTRUCTIONS when you buy an item?
Does it DEPEND on THE ITEM?
I think you do Gary- I think you read the instructions plus the ones in other languages.
and there was a family member who use to tell me he wished women especially me came with instructions and at age 6 I would say to him why bother- what man really reads instructions….and what lady is meant to be understood….
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8b/5c/e7/8b5ce7febcb0c4b435ce03869164cf91–writing-humor-writing-tips.jpg
Elephant in the room is an English-language metaphorical idiom for an obvious problem or risk that no one wants to discuss, or a condition of groupthink that no one wants to challenge.
I do want to challenge the DNA of the fire industry but over time I see only select few who even get WHY I desire such…over time I became to understand that some rather think of me as a slinky…”I don’t do very much and quite useless but throw me down some stairs and see them smile and be entertained…” just like a slinky offers-
At least I am not the Armenian man who seen 2987 already or Andrew Basiago….I do not even give a crap if one reads or listens to me but I did hope my photos told the true story but then there is John MacLean and that taught me different..that my photos can tell someone else’s story that has factual errors as it was presented…
I am proud to state the Arizona Attorney General just funded me today some monies so I will be turning some areas into commercial foias and I thank them for the large amount of cash on a settlement that was reached… now that was the best Christmas gift ever…
Feliz Navidad….Geseënde Kersfees….
Christmas Mubarak (کرسمس مبارک)….. Eid Milad Majid (عيد ميلاد مجيد)…
Vrolijk Kerstfeest… Frohe Weihnachten
for you Gary….Sheng Dan Kuai Le (圣诞快乐)
Mele Kalikimaka
Keshmish ya’at’eeh
Quite fitting for your terrain
Navajo
I sure love the Chinle Spider Rock indigenous folks…learned A lot about life from them.
Dine bizaad bihoosh’aah.. Do hozho diist’ada ndi bihoosh’aah.
Diné bizaad doo shił bééhózin da
tôi không thực sự nói tiếng việt
ຂ້ອຍບໍ່ເວົ້າພາສາລາວ
Kuv tsis tshua hais lus Hmoob
我不會說中文，但是謝謝你，聖誕快樂
**
** R.I.P. COREY IVERSON
Not many details yet… but ( apparently ) some similarities to Yarnell.
1. Working in steep terrain with ‘draws’ and ‘canyons’.
2. Sudden weather change / wind shift.
3. Crew unable to reach a safety zone.
4. Crew was then ‘overrun by the blaze’.
But ( unlike Yarnell and the Granite Mountain Hotshots ), at least someone knew how to make an actual MAYDAY call.
BBC NEWS
Article Title: California firefighter dies as Thomas blaze rages
Published: December 14, 2017
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42361964
———————————————————————————————————-
A California firefighter has been killed by a wildfire burning across Ventura and Santa Barbara counties.
Fire chief Ken Pimlott said the victim was apparatus engineer Cory Iverson, 32, a father-of-one whose wife is pregnant with a second child.
Iverson was part of a crew battling the Thomas Fire, one of six major blazes currently raging in the state.
The California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (Cal Fire) did not give out any more details about Iverson’s death, but it followed reports earlier in the day of a fire unit being overrun by the blaze near the town of Fillmore.
Radio traffic between firefighters and their controllers on Thursday morning gave a glimpse of the terrifying reality of tackling this monster blaze.
“Fire is coming right at you,” said one message as units in the Fillmore area on the far eastern edge of the wildfire were ordered to pull back.
The weather had apparently changed suddenly, posing a threat to the lives of the firefighters in the area.
There were reports of a MAYDAY call
A rescue helicopter was scrambled and controllers attempted to contact a firefighter who was said to be “down” in the area.
The confirmation that a fire engineer had died came quickly. The man’s family have been told of his death.
———————————————————————————————————-
Other articles put the actual time the MAYDAY call went out at 9:30 AM, Thursday morning.
Just a few days ago ( in response to Diane Lomas’ question about whether ‘Breaking in on Arizona 16’ constitutes an actual ‘Mayday call’ ) I said the following…
———————————————————————————————————-
Following the settlement of the 12 Yarnell wrongful-death lawsuits… Arizona Forestry ‘blew off’ any requests from the family members to implement any kind of ’emergency radio protocol’.
There would be NO official ‘recommendation’ to finally implement any standard emergency ‘Mayday’ radio procedure ( or its equivalent ) in the world of wildland firefighting, even though 19 lives were lost at the Yarnell Hill Fire and we can HEAR them being unable to properly declare their own life threatening situation.
So… to this day… ( and even right now in California ) you have structural firefighters ( who are also trained to participate in wildland firefighting ) battling fires in the Wildland Urban Interface right alongside regular wildland firefighters…
…but while the ‘structural’ FFs are all fully trained in the use of the ‘Mayday’ radio protocol… their ‘wildland firefighter’ counterparts STILL haven’t been instructed or trained on how to issue a ‘Mayday’ call because both State and Federal Wildland Firefighting managers still all have their collective heads firmly embedded in their collective asses.
———————————————————————————————————–
**
** MAYDAY CALL CONFIRMED
Daily News
Article Title: Firefighter killed while battling Thomas fire identified as San Diego CalFire engineer
Published: December 14, 2017 at 10:46 am
Updated:: December 14, 2017 at 5:03 pm
http://www.dailynews.com/2017/12/14/firefighter-sounds-mayday-alert-as-thomas-fire-rages/
—————————————————————————————————–
Firefighter sounds MAYDAY alert as Thomas Fire Rages
A firefighter from San Diego has died while battling the Thomas fire in the Fillmore area of Ventura County, officials said Thursday, Dec. 14.
The firefighter, identified as Cory Iverson, was an engineer for Cal Fire based in San Diego, officials said. Authorities have not yet released details on how the accident occurred.
Earlier in the day, officials confirmed a firefighter sounded a “mayday” alert while working the fire…
“Something did happen,” said Cal Fire deputy chief Scott McLean just before noon. “We’re trying to gather information as we speak … we’re in the fact-finding phase at the moment.”
A mayday call “means a firefighter is in trouble,” McLean added.
“It’s a very fluid situation,” McLean said.
The Ventura County Fire Department confirmed the “mayday” call earlier Thursday.
Unconfirmed reports suggested the firefighter had been working in the 1700 block of Grand Avenue in the city of Fillmore.
Kuredjian added that “our helicopter was dispatched to assist.”
—————————————————————————————————-
thank you wtktt
https://sofrep.com/81884/army-marine-corps-want-big-changes-infantry-arsenals-congress-seems-board/
Gee whiz Joy, I guess the military should hire you!
Gary, its not the military that should hire me…its everyone.
Im no expert
but I do believe if I pull my trigger
which is engraved LOVE GOD…
one connected shot should keep them down for good
not 3 or 4 shots.
That’s why its the future… 6.5 mm Grendel
God Bless the 2nd Amendment
And our troops especially our snipers…
Thank you for taking the time to understand me. Now I hope we can get back to YHF.
Who is Eric Conrad Jackson? My scrumpled up napkin I tossed but had this chicken scratched on it… napkin says Conrad. Besides US Forestry wff 7 years…Science Teacher 8 years…PFD ff…UofA 88 to 93 (biology)…what’s the tie to Timberline foods and is that a food line for the fire industry…did he ever live in Tucson in the 90s…he just sounds so familiar…but I have so many napkins over time that when we were at events I would overhear folks talking yhf and very early on this man was mentioned and always wondered what was his tie in this whole dealio and to Brendan…Diane Lomas learned with Paul that going direct has not always been easy in this…so I always have his name on hmmm anyone know anything about why someone was talking about him tied to yhf? It could of been a simple thing but I always had gut to research more…so I would not know where to begin because isn’t PFD just structural or all the entities now becoming both wildland and structural even PFD?
That procedure fits into my definition of switching out parts. If I wanted to shoot a 6.5 Grendel, I would just buy a rifle that shoots that caliber because by the time you buy the the entire upper, you could almost buy a complete rifle. And then you would have two rifles, one as a backup.
But all of that is a moot point anyway, the point is, our world turns on the 5.56 and 7.62 NATO rounds. And until the 6.5 Grendel is adopted by the U.S. military and NATO, you will be better off investing in standard rifles that shoot either 5.56 or 7.62, rather than waste limited resources on an intermediate cartridge.
And even after that happens, you are still going to be better off with the 5.56 or 7.62 because once you are no longer competing with the military, those guns and bulk ammo will be even cheaper because most people will be chasing the latest and greatest…the 6.65 Grendel.
Because like I already wrote. If I am ever facing a problem that can’t be solved with a 5.56, a 7.62 or a 12 gauge slug/00 buck, I am going to pull up my pants and go home anyway because for me…that party will be over anyway.
Here is the bottom line, but I don’t expect you to buy it because you are…stubborn You don’t like being in a box and you color outside the lines. I don’t…or at least I prefer not to.
“Proponents assert that the Grendel is a middle ground between the 5.56×45mm NATO and the 7.62×51mm NATO. It retains greater terminal energy at extended ranges than either of these cartridges due to its higher ballistic coefficient.[2] For example, the 123 gr (8.0 g) 6.5 Grendel has more energy and better armor penetration at 1,000 meters than the larger and heavier 147 gr (9.5 g) M80 7.62 NATO round.
In order to obtain ballistics that are superior to the 7.62×51mm cartridge, a weapon with a longer barrel and firing a heavier bullet is necessary. To achieve the same results from shorter length barrels, even heavier bullets are needed.”
and
SERBIA is in process of adopting a rifle made by ZASTAVA ARMS [16] in 6.5 mm Grendel caliber as main armament for its armed forces. USA manufactured rifle in 6.5mm Grendel caliber will also be adopted in armament for special forces units after it passes testing in Technical Testing Center. Three types of 6.5mm Grendel ammunition produced by PRIRVI PARTIZAN UZICE SERBIA will be tested for use with these rifles.
I’m pretty sure SERBIA isn’t even a member of NATO. So…I’m going to stick with Sig Sauer 5.56 and 7.62 since I have moved up form Colt.
https://www.sigsauer.com/products/firearms/rifles/
I will however, pass along what you have written to the Pentagon. And I do admire your enthusiasm for experimentation and thinking outside the box, I just don’t want to emulate it.
Oh…and one more thing.
The reason I am so critical on John Mclean, other than he made fun of Joy and Sonny…is because he has swallowed the hook, line and sinker in addition to drinking the Cool Aid from the agencies, the Yavapai County WF Cosa Nostra and Mrs. Lohman and her posse by blaming the deaths of the crew on the lie that the crew left the black willingly so they could reengage the fire. Which is BULLSHIT!
The discussion between Marsh and Steed was all about Marsh ordering them to beat the fire to the ranch so Marsh could save the Wildland Fire Division and the crew from the City of Prescott’s budget ax. There was going to be plenty of good work a hotshot crew could safely do if they would have waited another 30 minutes and they could have hiked all of the way down in the black. That nasty type of fuel burns hot and fast, but it doesn’t stay hot for very long.
It is obvious to me the crew did not want to go down by their reaction to the discussion. That was not a hotshot crew who was willingly following those orders. The scowls on their faces and the one guy spitting in disgust tells me everything I need to know.
In addition to that, I have information that I believe to be true, that Captain Steed refused to follow Marsh’s orders at least two times and only acquiesced on the third time.
I believe the Steed was ordered to take the crew down the chute against everyone’s better judgement and in violation of almost all of the WF rules and guidelines in addition to common sense becasue Marsh had flagged that route when he went down.
So…fuck Maclean and his posse.
And as a reminder, I still think the reason Marsh miscalculated the crew’s descent time was because he based it on his time, either forgetting or not taking into account that for every second he lost due an obstacle, the crew lost more than 19 seconds.
That adds up to some real minutes after a few delay’s due to what I have called the “accordion effect” of how a hotshot crew hikes through rough terrain in single file.
But Steed and the crew knew that there was an unacceptable chance Marsh was ordering them to their deaths. And they didn’t go due to either Group Think or the Abilene Paradox. They went because that is what hotshots do…they follow their crew boss, which like I have written several times, has always worked out except for three shifts in the history of hotshot crews.
Maclean is also full of shit comparing comparing Mann Gulch to South Canyon and trying to come up with an acronym that has anything about structures or houses in it.
There weren’t any structures on the Loop Fire, the Battlement Creek Fire or the South Canyon Fire and those are the only fires that should be compared to the Yarnell Hill Fire.
He isn’t comparing apples to oranges, he is trying to compare fruits to vegetables.
John Maclean is ignorant of hotshot history or what it means to be a hotshot and what makes a hotshot crew…a hotshot crew.
Whoops…I forgot I call it the “Slinky Effect” not the “Accordion Effect.”
And as a preemptive strike against my old friend RTS…there is one thing that he was known for, is known for, and will always be known for.
RTS is different, he is an anomaly, he marches to the sound of a different drum (a Native American drum in his case), he colors outside the lines and thinks outside the box…he is to one of a kind and they broke the mold when they made him. He is to the world of hotshots what Oddball was to Kelly’s Heroes.
Oddball: Hi, man.
Big Joe: What are you doing?
Oddball: I’m drinking wine and eating cheese, and catching some rays, you know.
Big Joe: What’s happening?
Oddball: Well, the tank’s broke and they’re trying to fix it.
Big Joe: Well, then, why the hell aren’t you up there helping them?
Oddball: [chuckles] I only ride ’em, I don’t know what makes ’em work.
Big Joe: Christ!
Oddball: Definitely an antisocial type. Woof, woof, woof! That’s my other dog imitation.
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/kellys-heroes-the-best-quotes-ever-we-know-this-is-going-to-make-you-smile.html
And just to be clear, Maclean is ignorant of not only the history of hotshot crews and what that means, he is clueless regarding the culture and the tradition of hotshot crews as well.
As I have written before…all hotshot crews can trace their lineage back to the U.S. Forest Service. There are regional, agency, and even local variations and differences between hotshot crews. But at the core of their culture, ethos, and values…the things that make all hotshot crews stand up, water up, tool up, saddle up, listen up and then hit the fire line can be traced back to the Angeles and Cleveland National Forests in 1947-48.
Go back and review the work history of the key members of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew, that crew was built on a U.S. Forest Service foundation even more so than many “other” hotshot crews.
Who do you think wrote most if not all of the current standards? As goes the U.S. Forest Service…so goes the wildland firefighting community. They are always the 800 pound silver back Mountain Gorilla in the meeting.
The U.S. Forest Service respects and values all of their partners…but they set the standards that every other agency follows and seeks to emulate. Period…end of story.
FYI Joy…for people who think the 5.56 under performs and have lots more money to spend on ammo than I do, I have already mentioned the next great thing that is nicknamed the “5.56 Killer” and that is the 300 Blackout which is explained pretty good here;
https://www.blacksheepwarrior.com/an-argument-for-300-aac-blackout/j
Never mind, that Link isn’t working…just Goggle it, the Internet has lots of articles and videos on it.
Gary,
I agree with almost everything above. I take issue with two things.
1) “And they didn’t go due to either Group Think or the Abilene Paradox. They went because that is what hotshots do…they follow their crew boss, which like I have written several times, has always worked out except for three shifts in the history of hotshot crews.”
It’s not that you’re wrong, I just disagree with you on your reasoning there, because not all HS Crews blinding follow “do what your f**king told to do” orders.
2) The Slinky or Accordian effect generally comes in to play hiking UPHILL.
Like it said,I just disagree with you. It’s a matter of Professional Opinions..
And one more thing, I’m pretty sure you missed this one yesterday.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/#comment-473335
And there are SEVERAL research papers coming to the same conclusions.
RTS,
I think the “Slinky Effect” comes into play anytime there is an obstacle in the path that forces the crew line to pause.
I explained this is in great detail way back downstream, when a rock, heavy brush or any other obstacle blocks the path of a hotshot crew hiking up, down or on level ground, it creates a ripple effect through the entire line that is compounded by each and every person in the line.
For example;
If the first person takes five seconds to clear the obstacle…the other 18 all have to wait that 5 seconds before they can proceed. But once the obstacle is cleared, the first person resumes a normal pace. But now 17 are waiting another five seconds for the second person to clear the same obstacle.
Once the second person clears the obstacle, that person resume a normal pace, but they are now their normal safety spacing plus 10 seconds behind the first.
Once the third person clears the obstacle, they resume their normal pace but they are now their normal safety spacing plus 15 seconds behind the second person.
By the time the last person clears the obstacle, they resume their normal pace but they are now their normal safety spacing plus 1 minute and 35 seconds behind the leader.
If they encounter 10 five second obstacle’s without the leader ever stopping and waiting for everyone to catch up, the last person will be their normal spacing plus almost 16 minutes behind the first.
But the leaders of most hotshot crews will pause every few minutes to regain the integrity of the single file crew line, which subsequently results in the slinky effect.
I guess I don’t understand why you think that happens regardless of whether the terrain is up or down? I think that phenomenon is dependent on whether there are any obstacles in their path, not on whether the terrain is up or down?
Thank you for the link, but I don’t normally read things like this;
“… regardless of the gender composition of the groups significantly lower quality decisions arose from groups with a directive rather than a participative leader. … and [their] findings suggest that in terms of decision outcome quality, good leaders encourage open inquiry to yield diverse alternatives for problem solutions.”
…because it makes my head hurt. I’m more of the “Big Joe” kind of guy. So…ask yourself, would Big Joe read that research paper, or would he just say, “Well, then, why don’t you just shut the fuck up and get back to work and leave that kind of thinking to the people who are getting paid to be research brainiacs?”
I am pretty sure I agreed with you a long time ago that although a participative leader style may be be preferred to the directive leader style, that just isn’t how hotshot crews are run.
You lived and operated in what I now understand was an academic and psychological workshop that masqueraded as the Payson Hotshot Crew. I knew the Payson Hotshots to always be a respected crew, so it must have worked out for you.
I think all hotshot crews however, now that you have retired, are based on the “cult of personality” leadership style. Hey…don’t shoot the messenger. I didn’t invent that system, or create hotshot crews to function that way, I am merely a product of that system.
I’m sure you knew Van Bateman back in the day. Do you think he was a participative leader or a direct leader? I only mention him because he was always help up as the Gold Standard for a hotshot crew boss on a forest where the entire FIRE program was based on a “cult of personality” around Forest FMO Bill Buck.
That is just the way it was…and the way I think it still is. I’m sure you knew all of the Coconino hotshot crew bosses back in the day. Bob Smith from Blue Ridge, an ex Navy SEAL who had served in Vietnam, Ed Hollenshead who retired as the R-5 Director of Aviation and Fire Management, Biggy, Milford Suida, Mark Zumwalt and we know all to well about the history’s of Gordon King, Tony Czak and Eric Marsh. Which one of those guys do you think was a participative leader as opposed to a directive leader?
I’m not saying you’re wrong…I’m just saying you were unique and one of a kind. I was the standard, run of the mill, cog in the machine type, I took orders and I gave orders and the giant wildland firefighting industrial complex machine made up of people just like me….heaved forward.
Whoops…”I guess I don’t understand why you think that happens IRRESPECTIVE of whether the terrain is up or down?
Although who I used to know really is inconsequential. You must know dozens of current and recently former Hotshot crew bosses. You are in a perfect place to know if a participative or directive leader is the current standard?
You should also know whether or not most, if not all current and recently separated crew bosses ran/run
“Cult of Personality” crews like we know Marsh did?
I would guess that there have been at least some improvements, because there have been dramatic improvements in the professionalization of hotshot crews in recent years as I have written several times?
As you know, things were very different back in the day as far as a very high turnover went, which as I have freely admitted was far more responsible for my dramatic rise through the ranks than my abilities as a hotshot.
But in any case, it is very clear to me that whatever the current situation is…Eric Marsh missed out on those memos and the studies you used. because Marsh ran his crew based on his cult of personality more than even Bill Buck, Famous Amos, or Jeff Denepont, trained me to manage a hotshot crew.
Gary,
Trust me, I am clearly familiar with the Slinky thing.
Most of my experiences with this were when climbing uphill and there were occasions with obstacles in our path, and likely some going downhill at times.
If Big Joe had any brains and was looking to get smarter, he would read the research paper. And if he said: “Well, then, why don’t you just shut the fuck up and get back to work and leave that kind of thinking to the people who are getting paid to be research brainiacs,” then he is following the path towards Groupthink.
There are literally scores of research papers verifying the benefits of a participatory leadership style and opposing the directive style, which leads to taking a Trip to Abilene or Groupthink.
Yes, we did discuss the various leadership styles. And once again, both directive and participative styles occur. I have worked under both leadership styles and chose participative. When I worked for Bob, I thought he was an asshole with his directive leadership.
Not initially, but yes, we lived and operated in a Team Member style of leadership and except for a few minor struggles, it worked fine. You considered it an “academic and psychological workshop that masqueraded as the Payson Hotshot Crew.” You are entitled to your opinion. Yes indeed, the Payson Hotshots were almost always a respected crew by other Crews. Not so much by certain IMT’s where we refused unsafe assignments and such or refused to be “Team Players” and “go along to get along.” That’s Groupthink.
I had to look up the “cult of personality” leadership style. So, no way did we practice that form of leadership and the articles and papers I read spoke out against it as being a poor form of leadership, more like dictatorships and authoritarianism. You say you didn’t invent that system, or create hotshot crews to function that way, and neither did I.
So then, you are saying you are “a product of that system,” a product of this so-called “cult of personality” system?
I absolutely think Van Bateman was a participative leader back in the day. And you may be correct that the Coconino fire program was based on a “cult of personality” around Forest FMO Bill Buck. I don’t know because I never worked for him outside of fire assignments.
Yes, I knew and enjoyed working with Bob Smith from Blue Ridge. Ed Hollenshead and I,never got along after the Dude Fire debacle and ensuing coverups, .The feeling was and still is mutual. I remember Biggy, Milford Suida, and Mark Zumwalt and their leadership style varied with some choosing one style over the other, but definitely not all directive.
I know the history of Gordon King and Tony Czak but never knew them or worked with them personally, so can’t tell you about their leadership styles.
I worked with Crew 7 under various leaders prior to them becoming the GMHS. Marsh and the GMHS only after leaving the Crew in 2007, and certainly heard of his exploits and how others distrusted him. He was most definitely a strongly directive leadership style.
I appreciate the compliments and yes, I was NOT a “go along to get long and don’t rock the boat” Team Player. Yes indeed, I took orders and I gave orders and I also questioned orders and refused orders plenty of times if they were unsafe, illegal, immoral, or unethical. And even several if they were just plain stupid.
Yes indeed, the giant wildland firefighting industrial complex machine was, and still is, made up of people just like you. All Hot Shot Crew Superintendents were ‘created’ by the system that we had to work in so that we could safely mange or Crews, our ultimate responsibility.
The leadership styles of current and former Hotshot crew bosses vary between the numerous leadership styles, including some that are less than acceptable in my view. Many of these young supervisors want to be everyone’s ‘friend’ and that is definitely NOT a good leadership style. And I do not know whether or not most, if not all current and recently separated crew bosses ran/run “Cult of Personality” crews like we know Marsh did. I would tend toward saying no on that.
.
It is very clear to me that he certainly was privy to, and had access to. “those memos,” case studies, fatality and shelter deployment reviews, lessons learned, and much more that we all used. He just never actually heeded and learned the lessons they taught.
They practiced a much different brand of leadership based on their attitude and actions toward securing their Crew vehicles on two other fires, prior to the YH Fire, where other resources had to get involved in order to save them from burning up.
Then you have the classic safety attitude regarding the Fire Orders with McDonough and his comment that at least one of the Fire Orders (#10) was ‘old, it’s hillbilly, and we are smarter than that, much smarter.’ Third year Crewmembers do not come to those conclusions on their own. That had to have been spoken of on a regular basis or he/they were coached.
Gary,
“The greater the perceived social pressure and the greater the perceived control, the more likely will the individual perform the behavior”
(Ajzen, 1985; The Theory of Planned Behavior Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes 1991)
Tried answering this down below…haven’t hard time posting so doing it here…on cell
Sports stadiums? I thought they were promising the horizon on the ocean and the beautiful sunsets…so you do not swap parts you just swap the
Complete upper receivers to whatever ammo is available…just 2 pins…the parts are in the upper receiver…swap your 5.56 upper for 6.5 upper or 7.62 x39 upper. Good night…not well tonight.
WTKTT,
Thanks for the post and the details, with more to follow.
According to WF on the Thomas Fire, in the same Division, these guys were part of a contingent firing off a road as the fire was aggressively backing down the hill. Chaparral only backs downhill when fire weather and fire behavior conditions are just right. You can take that hearsay for what it’s worth.
And I think we agreed back when we talked about this before, that the MUNICIPAL Fire Departments always had and used a MAYDAY protocol. It was the WF that needed to adopt and recognize and use it, right?
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on December 15, 2017 at 10:28 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Thanks for the post and the details, with more to follow.
>>
>> According to WF on the Thomas Fire, in the same Division, these guys were
>> part of a contingent firing off a road as the fire was aggressively backing
>> down the hill. Chaparral only backs downhill when fire weather and fire
>> behavior conditions are just right. You can take that hearsay for
>> what it’s worth.
Copy that. Thank you.
Some articles are reporting that no details will be released until the
Ventura County medical examiner’s office finishes the ( required ) autopsy.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And I think we agreed back when we talked about this before, that the
>> MUNICIPAL Fire Departments always had and used a MAYDAY protocol. It was
>> the WF that needed to adopt and recognize and use it, right?
Correct.
It’s been part of municipal/structural firefighter training for decades… but the ongoing problem is that even firefighters who are TRAINED to call a ‘Mayday’ are often reluctant to do so because of the well-ensconced “We are all heroes and we don’t make mistakes’ mentality / culture.
This article was published by ‘Fire Engineering’ a full year before the 19 Granite
Mountain Hotshots died in Yarnell…
Fire Engineering
The Protocol of the Mayday Call
Published: 01/01/2012
http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-165/issue-1/departments/real-world-rit/protocol-mayday-call-full.html
From the article…
———————————————————————————–
According to the results of a 2009 survey of 187 firefighters across several Midwestern states, most firefighters felt that their coworkers wouldn’t know when to call a Mayday. Almost half said they would not call a Mayday even if they were in a flashover or a backdraft. The research project, “Human Factors Affecting Mayday Decisions,” asked questions that, although not scientifically developed, were intended to determine how firefighters decide whether to call a Mayday and how comfortable they were with calling one.
One of the research project’s more positive results revealed that about 92 percent of firefighters felt they knew how to call a Mayday; at a minimum, this means that we are doing our jobs with regard to Mayday training. Unfortunately, these same firefighters said they felt only about 50 percent of coworkers know when and how to declare a Mayday. So, although we are training our people, we aren’t making sure that they have faith in each other’s abilities.
Are we so unwilling to admit that firefighters sometimes get in over their heads that we don’t want our people to call for help? Maybe we just aren’t encouraging it because we naively think it will never happen. Maybe we hope that if we never talk about it, it won’t happen. As for being judged, looked down on, or made fun of by your peers for calling a Mayday, get over it. If you are in trouble, call for help.
How will firefighters begin to call for help when they need it? Start by changing your organization’s culture. Support and encourage Mayday training as well as firefighters calling a Mayday when needed. Also, develop a safety culture that eliminates all opposition to Mayday decision making. Reports and logic both indicate that a lack of safety culture contributes to firefighter LODDs. Removing these cultural roadblocks will lead to safer organizational operations. Help everyone to understand when, why, and how to call a Mayday. Have them train on it repeatedly so they won’t get it wrong in a real-life scenario. Once you’ve done that, figure out why your firefighters aren’t calling Maydays. When doing a postincident analysis for an incident where a firefighter should have called a Mayday but did not, talk about it with that firefighter. Find out why he did not call for help, and use this information to train the rest of your firefighters.
———————————————————————————–
I found the research paper/survey titled: “Human Factors Affecting Mayday Decisions” with a subtitle of: “Will they call for help when they need it?”
And it was written by the author (Robert N. Goplin) of your article when he worked for the Green Bay (WI) FD. It’s 76 pages long and details the whole thing.
.https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=695453
John Macleans presentation at the 2016 Wildfire Conference held here in BC last year..
https://vimeo.com/209478600
ok. I dreamnt about you last night (actually I slept 6:51am until 10:56am)
so funny time you show up-
I also dreamnt I was at one of Eric Marsh’s Gala events and this one reporter was telling one of the loved ones something as I clicked “record” and said what about this desert walker character you say and as the reporter went on I saw myself telling the bleachers do not tell points quite yet to the reporter and it became viral all the documented stuff too premature and I about sunk in my world…one of the hardest things for me is knowing data like I do and I wish even John MacLean would invest in some additional data and public records and I am about to watch and reply to this video as I did skim it and felt it was worthy enough to drop some events to the day and reply my humble opinions to the video so funny timing of your post since at 7am I was dreaming of you rocksteady….
Routine Housekeeping & Thoughts For The Day For Joy
1. I do remember reading The Woodsman’s post that included his reference to carrying two drip torches. I believe he was referring to the large and rather heavy drip torches that are typically used for large prescribed fires to emphasize the fact that he would always put himself forward for the most difficult assignments and arduous tasks.
So…if you are asking me if I did the same the answer is…yes. My history as a hotshot speaks for itself. No one is assigned to be a swamper for the sawyer, that is the hardest and most unpleasant job on a hotshot crew. And I was a swamper…enough said.
I yield the floor to RTS, his brother Bob and every other WF who has posted here or anywhere else pertaining to every other WF position and their knowledge of, and experience regarding those jobs.
But…I refuse to take a backseat to anyone regarding being a hotshot. I was never the ideal hotshot because I was too fucking big (as RTS has written, he said Hotshots like me ear too much food, drink too much water and can’t take the heat, which is the truth…so how fucking good do you think I had to be to overcome those prejudices from almost everyone?) or some might say too fucking fat, but my dedication, enthusiasm, and refusal to quit managed to compensate for my shortcomings.
And once again, the reasons I take this position is because I started as the second to the last Shovel on a hotshot crew on the second squad,,which is the least important position on a hotshot crew. And three years later I had volunteered and worked in every other position on a hotshot crew and ending up as the Superintendent.
There are very few people who can say the same thing, and I did it for the love of the job, not because it was a “carrier” move as Bob always says…it wasn’t even a career move for me since I considered my time as a hotshot merely a youthful fling with my WF mistress with my drug of choice…pure adrenaline while I delayed starting my career in law enforcement. Unfortunately…I became an adrenaline junkie in the process and I have been suffering terrible withdrawal symptoms ever since I retired.
For example, if I understand Bob correctly, he started on a hotshot crew as the Number 2 on Oak Grove without ever working as a crewman, much less a sawyer! And then he only did that job for two years as a carrier move before moving on up the foodchain. I am not taking anything away from Bob…I am simply pointing out the differences in our career paths, while wondering how somebody became the Number 2 on a hotshot crew with that history (R5 standards maybe?)
It never would have worked on the Mighty Coconino…of that you can rest assured. The path to a hotshot leadership position on the Coke went right through the hotshot gladiator school of hard knocks.
And…my good friend from the old days RTS never writes about his experiences as a hotshot swamper or sawyer, so I’m assuming he doesn’t have any. Once again…that isn’t intended as a slight, it is just as a reminder of my hotshot resume.
And who can forget my main claim to fame…being the youngest hotshot (Bob tried to take that away from me with Lyn Biddison’s record, but The Woodsman proved him wrong, Lyn went to the highest levels as a fire god, and I was never more than a grunt and a ground pounder, but my record as the youngest hotshot crew boss will never be broken…because Hotshot crew bosses now have to be highly qualified now with many, many years of experience as opposed to how it was in my day…”Hey you…you’re in charge until we can find someone better!”) crew boss in the history of hotshot crews AND the fact that I founded a new hotshot crew from the ground up…with a little help from my friends.
So yes…I always carried 2 drip torches and everything else that needed to be humped up the fucking Mountain. Nowadays it looks like they have little tiny plastic high tech drip torches for pussies (non gender specific) to carry, so carrying a dozen of them wouldn’t be a big deal.
2. As I have written before, you are without a doubt, one of the most naive, hard headed and difficult people I have ever tried to help and you are never going to change, but here is some more good advice anyway.
I agree with you that that FUCKING ASSHOLE wannabe WF John MacLean used you as a “colorful character” and the butt of his presentation jokes to further his career as a WF wannabe and author. He is NOT a nice person or a good person…you should NOT like him, he used you (and Sonny) and then threw you away. Holly and her husband are no different…or at least Holly is as a wannabe WF but never really was.
I don’t know anything about her husband except he used you too…and then threw you away. Quit letting people use you, throwing you under the next bus and then writing about how much you like them and what good people they are.
John Maclean is nothing more than a good author whose main claim to fame is that his father wrote a book about WF and he has used that notoriety to gain access others can’t get to write his own books.
You ask is he an WF EXPERT? FUCK NO! He is a clever parrot who can taught to regurgitate key phrases while he pursues his fraudulent goals of being a recognized WF expert. He is a good and successful AUTHOR…nothing more.
Alister MaClean is a good author as well…but no one is really going to send him on Special Ops or to save the world, but we can enjoy his literary work and his fantasies.
FYI…you can’t sue Maclean or anyone else because you aren’t a wealthy person who has money to burn (about 100 grand to START with) for filing a lawsuit against them, nor can you show any monetary damages because of their libel and slander, which is a key element of that kind of lawsuit. And as far as your emotional distress and psychological damages…who the hell can tell what those are with you, much less put a dollar amount on them. (Just kidding, you know how much I love you).
3. I am tired of two finger typing, so I am going to keep this one short. You asked about what kind of book we can expect from Maclean. We can expect a FICTIONAL one.
Maclean has completely prostituted himself and compromised his objectivity in exchange for access and be allowed into the defensive Wagon Circle of Mrs. whatever the fuck her new name is and her posse, the Yavapai County WF Cosa Nostra (Our Thing) and the YHF disgraced pick up sand lot collection of misfits and used to be’s fire team.
JOHN MACLEAN AND HIS POSSE ARE APOLOGIST FOR THE BIGGEST FUCK UP IN WILDLAND FIREFIGHTING HISTORY! Reading his book on this subject would be a complete waste of time unless you want some well written fiction,
And by the way, I am living proof it is very hard to sue someone for libel and slander…I have been doing everything I can to get somebody to sue me over this bullshit for four years so I can spout off in court, but I can’t get any takers. John Maclean is a fraud, a con artist and a charlatan, in addition to being a phony and a really good bullshit artist. Fuck him and his posse, I would use his book on the YHF to wipe my ass with but I’m not going to spend any money on it. Maybe I will wait and buy one at a charity book fair and then use that one to wipe my ass with?
Any more questions?
Oh…and one more thing. I didn’t really write any of that for Joy or anyone else. It was all just filler so I could tell the world what I think of the phony, fraud, charlatan, in addition to bullshit and con artist artist, but pretty good author John Mclean, in addition to his fucking posse of no nothings.
Joy…what is it with you and Alan [Sinclair ?] anyway? Why do you feel sorry for him and like him? What the fuck has he ever done worth talking about? As far as I know, he is another apologist, a wanna be, a gadabout and a gadfly? Who cares about him? Never mind….I don’t really care because I’m pretty sure it doesn’t matter and it’s not important because he’s not important or matter.
I didn’t like Mclean talking trash about the two people who were witnesses to wildland fire history being made…while he just pretends he knows what happened that day.
If you talk the talk…you had better walk the walk. I learned that as a walk on to a hotshot crew after I was hired to be a Fire Prevention Technician, which has about as much real world worth as the title suggests..more or less.
I was an accidental hotshot…and then I was an accidental hotshot crew boss. But it was one helluva E Ticket Ride! And I would do it all over again….except I would try harder to get it right next time! .
Whoops…”in addition to his fucking posse of KNOW nothings.”
I was taught to type using phonetic sounds..
FYI…info pertaining to an earlier discussion. Like I said, this model of gun (M4) completes me. What would I be willing to give up in order to prevent another Sandy Hook shooting by a mentally unstable person who everyone who knew him, knew he was unstable like the mother he murdered who had bought him the gun so she could bond with the little whacked out freak of nature? #Complicit
Unfortunately…giving up my M4.’s won’t help. There are wayyyyyy more than 3 million of them in circulation now.
The last time I bought one with an LE discount (gun manufacturers love to get their tools into the hands of LE so they give out sweetheart deals to make that happen) you bought a Colt or a Colt, or a Colt.
Then came Bushmaster and Olympic Arms and now everyone else like the Singer Sewing Machines company making .30 carbines during WWII.
Now EVERYBODY is making them including the start up company Sad Sack is schilling for…WTF? In those days…you had to pay way more than a grand for a Colt, about a grand for a Bushmaster in dollars 20 years ago…and now you can buy a Colt for wayyyy under a grand in today’s dollars.
They are almost giving the “Black Rifle” away, although now it comes in every color under the sun including pink.
Very few people who want to control that weapon have any idea just how bad it is…how easy they are to obtain without any paperwork being submitted to anyone or how cheap they are, or they would just go home and curl up in a ball because if they outlaw that gun tomorrow, it will take wayyy more than 100 years to get the supply of them off the market.
Outlaw the ammo and you might have a little better luck. The last time they outlawed them, all it did was drive the price up to wayyyy over two grand and I made a lot of money which I rolled back over into a new collection after the dust settled. Hey…I admitted I love that nasty little gun.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/14/health/ar15-rifle-history-trnd/index.html
Whoops…I should have written “dollars from 20 to 30 years ago” in retail dollars, not what I paid. : )
And I live the M4 above all others, but there are many variations I love almost as much. And for you other gun nuts out there who love the Black Rifle…I owned a Colt H-Bar Elite AR -15/SAS/DMR Sniper Rifle one time…until I was offered so much money for it I couldn’t say no.
Sighhhhhh…”l LOVE”. not…”I live.”
good to see the model of gun (M4) completes you.
I like to say the future is 6.5 mm Grendel
I like the way it performs..
that is what is great about the grendel- it fits in your M4 magazine well
after 450 yards it has more energy than a .308
less wind drift than a .308
and less drop then a .308
and less recoil…
and it fits in a standard size ar-15 not a ar-10 size
it stays supersonic a lot longer— 200 yards further than a .308
Yeah I may be hard headed Gary and difficult but 5.56 is lacking for a military cartridge and I am good on the line…a keeper there…
so forgive the rest… 
“please”
I was thinking about how John who was not there and I was
and I have reported FROM THE BEGINNING
on that final time with Marsh (9:08am)
who came down from top from talking to some fella and it was THAT talk he said in a fatherly tone if he ever could have one- “you cannot be in this spot because they want to make a drop and we are not geared up for it”…He looked at Sonny and said “better me to tell you then…” as he tilted head above “someone else”…we said sure…
and headed down and passed the rest of his crew (9:18am) as I made the comment “my jobs over- shew- your turn”
as we tried to get to the bigger boulders so I could use the restroom “finally” hiding…HE NEVER SAID ON ANY TALKS SAID GET OUT OF THE AREA OR OFF THE MOUNTAIN AND NEVER ONCE SAID WE COULD NOT TAKE PHOTOS BECAUSE WE SAID IN FIRST TALK (8:07 to 8:11am) OUR REASON FOR GOING UP WAS TO GET CLOSER PICTURES OF THE FIRE…SOOOOOOO IF HE HAD A PROBLEM WITH IT THAN WHY NOT TELL US THEN AT THE BASE ???? OR IN PHOTOS WHEN HE WAS TYING RIBBONS TO BUSHES…
that part of the presentation is so off and just his thoughts of it all…
you know what is terrible…he could of said Joy took pics of the vehicles and the terrain and thank God she did so we can understand it better but not I had some nervous tick (THAT IS MADE UP SHIT THERE)
for everyone knows that day I had my camera swung on me and I have a photo of me up there to prove it up until 10:30am then it was in my backpack until Sonny said take a photo of this and that…
Thank you for that “food for thought” Gary and I will reply below-
Number one. Routine Housekeeping eh…might need a one of those famous Wildland firefighting tools to clean this up like a Husqvarna 380BTS or an unmanned drone or better yet a Hoover WindTunnel Multi-Cyclonic Vacuum.
Thoughts for the day—I wish I could carry a thought than maybe my vlogs would carry some interest— (soft giggles)
The insert about torches and Woodsman was the bleachers who seems to nap more than sleep…but he made the inquiry on Woodsman
Many folks have wished RTS did write more as he pushes more into retirement about his experiences because he has a long history and a neat position- safety officer– pretty cool I think—and I do not think RTS was ever a part in any lemonade or Kool-aid stands Gary…in my research he is a good guy too
Gary, you know HOW there is posting glitches to this site- earlier I “almost” opened a can of worms on Donut.
Had this site posted it versus the 7 glitches and attempts and I gave up…
now I have reached legal assistance to get the proper way to do this because when I do—it will be here at this IM page and I think that was God covering my ass earlier…man
when I told one of the people what almost happened even he was like whoah…I know…
Donut, it is coming…I gave you plenty of time and I did…Sorry buddy—I feel for you and I do…
and if I had the extra funds I would of already turned this into a commercial situation
but I have to address some areas on you…in my opinion it is very necessary…if it was not for John Maclean’s presentation I would not even thought to Donut
so thank John for it
so yeah I am going to have to take my Holiday funds from Santa if any and turn a foia into commercial…
sorry Brendan…I am…I kinda was hoping this was coming from you…sheesh I do…shaking my head…
once its out Donut no turning back and I am not the only one aware of this so you know…man…
the way I look at it is I am withholding data knowing this and it is not right…
and its only withheld because of how I obtained it and I need to switch it to right format…
I was hoping one of the lawyers gave a shit in this and it was gonna be turned over to them
and hey John Dougherty you are media and if you want to open a can of worms I have it here…
come visit…
we can thank John’s presentation for waking up my senses to the data…
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Gary are you talking about the man who died due to injuries sustained in a vehicle accident in Albuquerque couple years ago on legacy? Where they state:
Lynn followed in the footsteps of his father, who was a wildland firefighter with the Civilian Conservation Corps and later on the Angeles National Forest in the 1930s. He later cited his dad and two other veteran “fire dogs” as his role models, noting they had the common traits of being “tough and fair to all” as well as being direct and decisive.
Lynn was hired as a fire tanker crew member at the age of 16, and throughout the rest of his career, his specialty was aviation and fire management. He joined the U.S. Navy in 1945 and served with the Seabees in the Philippines until the end of World War II. He promptly resumed firefighting on the Angeles National Forest in California, where he went on to work his way up the ranks, but always keeping involved in the trenches. By 1953, he was among the first “heli-jumpers” who dropped into fire zones from helicopters.
Not shying from academics, Lynn went to the University of California at Berkeley in 1948, studying forestry until he graduated in 1951.
Lynn advanced to district ranger and fire control officer positions in California, and was regularly dispatched to fires all over the country. It was during these years that Lynn played an instrumental role in developing an “incident command” system for the agency that involved establishing standing fire management teams. In 1968 he moved to Forest Service Region 3 in Albuquerque, where he became Regional Fire Director. He left 12 years later for his last posting with the Forest Service, as Regional Fire Director for Region 5, based in San Francisco. After retiring in 1982, ending a nearly 40-year run with the Forest Service, Biddison worked as a representative for Firetrol, a company that provided fire retardant products to agencies in the U.S. and other countries.
Lynn was a proud and loyal Forest Service soldier well after retirement. He played a big part in organizing a retirees reunion in Albuquerque that was held in the days following the car crash. He was a driving force in an effort to establish a National Museum of Forest Service History in Missoula, Mont., a project that is still in the works.
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without a doubt, I agree I am one of the most naive, hard headed and difficult people but I am a work in process and a survivor and an optimistic person…and I own up to it yet I do not hide like some on the line have…I stick with it…I am still here (like it or not)
I never said John MacLean was a “F” “A” wannabe WF but I did say as I am not in the industry “learning” the industry and I am innocently not facetiously asking who can who make the person an expert- that is all…no cuss words in my delivery at all…
I am asking it like how I became known locally as the desert walker because everyone “saw” me walk 76 miles a week in a desert and Charles Casmir Lipinski stated “Who the “f” are you on my property down there? and I replied “Cheese and crackers who is asking me such in such a way?” and he replied “a pissed off angry old man that this lady thinks she can just come on my property.” as he walked closer he realized I was on an easement and he had no say- he said he saw me every day almost walk from somewhere and I explained I walk from Congress to Wickenburg Filiberto’s than back home and he said that is far- I do not believe you—I told him the many stops I make along the way and one day he can drive by and see I am of truth and he sure did…he would in a way I will never forget…he gave me the label desert walker and it just stuck…but who gives a person labels was all I really meant because I like seeing leadership folks and seeing how they got there…but experts was always a hard topic for me…I know quite a bit on culinary yet I would never lay claim as an expert—to me labels like that means feeding egos is all…sorry how I feel…maybe its wrong how I think…maybe there is folks deserving to be labelled experts…I shot alot and I am really well advanced in my techniques and even the labelled experts call me an expert beyond them…but I also lived and learned from some of the old rugged best gun slingers…I still keep in touch daily with Clark Gable’s stunt man…he is a great man…he was in my fav tv show The Life and Legend of Wyatt Earp—I miss that show and Combat was my other tv show—I actually liked Tour of Duty too…I am not into the bubble gum shit shows of today so don’t name any off—I won’t know it…Also Sonny is very good with a rifle..(sorry Sonny not so much the pistol folks…soft giggles)
I did not feel used by John just wanted him to match his presentation words correctly to my photos that did not get the courtesy credit I requested as the link shows it as title of page there where the photos laid.
I still think he is a good man.
I doubt I helped further his career by being in the presentation Gary—that was too funny—
now I do think he has been around some of the MOST elite folks in your industry and I think many would never even question or comment or just let him say what he wants to my photos- it’s his show
but I do not like when I am hood winked with a surprise like that and it confirms what people of very high elite areas have shared to me then it was like I hope people see through it and do not buy into it…that was all.
I enjoyed his book that he gave us the hikers. I also think others enjoy his book but many told me over time read it with the understanding that what is presented is not always how it was behind the scenes so I say oh ok…
I could not say on a daily basis if he is nice or not like you stated yet on the hike and the cafe and all my experiences he was beyond kind and warm and truly someone I can see others looking up to throughout life and he took time to gt a stubborn splinter out for me—
he came off as this quiet type fella much like Michael Kodas but he radiated he was a numbers man—so I would not be shocked if he had a side kick job that he worked in accounting…I can see that…
I really think he is a great man and that is for reals…something very neat about him…
now Holly she always has come forward and make things right and never liked to leave things wrong if there was an air of it surfacing and both Sonny and I think the world of Wayne her husband…when you mention them that seemed very facetious and not heartfelt from you…How did Wayne use us? He was the MOST influential in teaching the hikers on the ground in person what we saw from our eyes and put into what firefighter do out there…he really took alot of energy helping us absorb it…neat man.
They threw me away? I do not know if that needs an answer but threw me away…they did not throw hard enough—I am still in Congress…can they throw me harder next time where I land in Alaska
you are something else…about letting people use me…yeah I have officially simmered down on who is in my space…
it was shocking Gary to see Rocksteady’s insert video link that I had removed and I think due to recordings I have I think they will leave it lay that way—some recordings I do not think they want to surface especially if a book is due out…it will not make me look bad at all but it will on them…
I think it is kind of cool he is the kid to Norman…and so I do not how to reply to that…yes on him being an expert and your reply “OH MY”
I have no intentions of ever suing anyone in my lifetime—one of my doctors is quite relieved of that too
I hope it is not fictional the book but I will call out any area publicly that is fictional with in it—I want someone to give a shit about T R U T H- it matters.
that one paragraph is your thing—ain’t going there…
Now for Alan Sinclair- yeah I saw on the hike..I know…and yes I do feel and mother freaker my eyes swelled up with heavy tears just now when I think to that hike and yeah he has to live on in the industry and I know inside he is making a living and getting his kid to make a living but inside you get him around a campfire on late night and with mother nature earth with paradise city ( https://youtu.be/GhUKuNRInSE ) blasting in the background and yeah this man faced a loss big time so yes I do feel bad for him…Sorry he had to see this in his lifetime…really…I feel bad for him more than alot of the folks….I saw the pain…it’s real. Real deep.
I also did not like when MacLean spoke on us when I was hoping to see a classy presentation and fill the holes in with better stuff then the hikers and the way he presented it…agreed there. I expect MORE from him…indeed I did and do-
phonetic sounds? what is that?
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Now that you got it off your chest and me too on MacLean…can we get back to business- YHF
like this man said to me about MacLean…
I wish I had time to read all the messages but maybe at 4 to 5 am at the close to my day but I did read some of the folks and some the fire industry messages and let me share to you some words shared:
C.B. stated: “Good morning Joy, only you could answer those questions about that day. GOD put you there to document the facts and the families will have their questions answered along with the peace and closure as a result. Reminds me of a children’s game when the first one whispers into the second child ear and on down the line and at the end the statement is totally changed much to the surprised participants. Then the discussion begins to find who started the change and no one wants to admit it. Well, I hope that the truth will finally be disclosed for all and the proper people held accountable. Rise above the good opinion of other people and don’t be drawn into playing others games or trying to figure out their motivations. Stay objective and factual. Take your emotions out of it, defensively and offensively and remain the incredible lady you are. Have a great day.”
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firefighters thanked me for being so courageous to file that claim to remove video and some who did not see it yet—it is still behind the scenes available…did you think I would file a claim without documenting it…come on now…
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Thu, Dec 14, 2017 a
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Thu, Dec 14, 2017 a
t 12:19 PM Daniel Perrakis and Kendrick Brown (Fire Research Scientists
Natural Resources Canada – Canadian Forest Service, Victoria, BC, Canada and
Co-Chairs (past), Wildland Fire Canada 2016) stated “Hello there,
We are very sorry you were upset by the content of our video. Wildland Fire Canada 2016 was a Canadian conference held last year in Kelowna, BC, designed to bring together wildfire managers, researchers, firefighters, and the public to discuss issues around community and landscape resilience to wildfire. Some of the keynote presentations were filmed during the conference and uploaded to Vimeo. John McLean was one of our keynotes, and gave a very informative and touching presentation which most attendees felt was one of the conference highlights. As a keynote, he was responsible for the content of his presentation. We will be in touch with John and hope he will reach out to you to resolve this concern.
The conference was a non-profit event, as are the videos; they are only there for education and information purposes for the public and are not making any money for anyone. The video of John’s presentation, as of last night, had been viewed 42 times in total in the 6 months it has been up. Other content from the conference (including the links to other videos) can be found at wildlandfire2016.ca.
We received your email last night and went to remove the video this morning, but saw that Vimeo had already taken it down. We have also deleted all links and references to the video from our website. We will not repost this video or presentation. We never had any intention of violating anyone’s rights; our sole intent for this video was for educational purposes relating to a tragic event for the international wildfire community. ”
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and I replied I am not upset just request photo courtesy credit and facts tied to my photos was all and any communications made to Vimeo or them they can share to John…I like John…just have to express and keep it pure— and when you speak in front of a large audience and anyone who privately or on here on IM saw that privately shared link it is specific throughout captions and on title YOU MUST GIVE ME COURTESY CREDIT if my photos are used and I only have 9 folks that are tight and are my family/friends that were excluded not even Sonny had the rights to use my photos without courtesy credit; a man I spent 6 years around…so yeah due to the odd layers of that presentation I had to have them remove it. And after watching the presentation I would question if John MacLean could even lay in a friends label even though all his emails came off that way and he even called me his friend and source on Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 10:38 AM when he heard about a certain situation that arose and hoped I could let him be out of the loop on it- I did keep him separate.
They can dispute it yet I have enough documentation that I think it will lay quiet.
I mean in the state of Arizona I have been recorded time after time without the person telling me in the aftermath of the YHF (ill mindedly throwing me under the bus) so I began doing it too;recording. I think the one conversation alone from one of his team members is enough that I have faith he will leave it alone. That is a conversation I think he would not like to see daylight.
I am not looking for monies or apologies just Gary USE FACTS and photo credit is all- That is it…and talk fire data- I have given enough that you do not have to add the other layers…the photos tell the story if you use them in order and correctly and add mine along with the homeowners and others on the line that day
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another incoming message I got —>>>Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:30 PM
“This author is full of himself and talks down about others”
I will close that each day I go out and walk…I have this song on my mix…
One foot in front of the other…
h t tp s:/ /youtu.be/xo1VInw-SKc
by the way Gary— do you speak Chinese? I need to know…
OK…if you forgive it so can I. I haven’t heard of the 6.5 mm Grendel and I am a gun nut like I am a Jeep nut, which means I shoot em and drive em, I don’t work on them and I am not a ballistics expert.
BUT….that being said, I have some serious doubts about loading a 6.5 mm cartridge into a chamber that is .556 and engineered to either fire commercial cartridges in the .223 or the NATO 5.56×45 mm or both of them.
The 5.56 military already is as hot as anybody should be shooting out of an AR 15 and has thicker brass walls than the commercial .223 Remington does. I would have even more concerns loading a cartridge into an AR 15 that can either mimic or out perform a .308 simply because I like face the way it is, (more or less) and I don’t want to have the charging handle or bolt assembly embedded into it. There is already a head spacing problem shooting the .223 in a 5,56 with the thinner brass and the explosion causes the brass to distort.. What are you…nuts?
That’s is one thing about federal LE, they are really big as in your ass will be fired, definately sued and maybe even criminally prosecuted for using ammo that is not factory ammo and manufactured to stringent standards and issued to you. And the same exact thing is true for no modifications whatsoever to any firearm carried on the job…hone the trigger, shoot somebody with it…once is is torn down by the BATF&E lab as part of every shooting investigation…lose everything and maybe go to jail.
And…there is plenty of cheap surplus NATO 5.56 ammo out there that is hot enough to destroy just about anything with a projectile moving at 3300 feet per second and if you are worried about heavy brush or want to shoot engine blocks, move up to the 7.62 NATO.
That is what the shooter in Las Vegas was mostly using because his victims were further away. The shooter in Miami nightclub used the new high speed low drag 300 Blackout at point blank range, (no wonder the death toll was so high) but most mass killers just stick with the .223 or 5.56.
You like living life on the edge to compensate for your cookie cutter house and what you consider to be an unflattering image as a housewife. I like living in a box and following the rules while I color inside the lines. Or at least I did until I was driven off the reservation…now I am a wild card and a loose cannon.
Yep…that was Lynn Biddison who went to the top as a primary fire god and a highly respected legendary figure in the WF world . Except for people like Bill Buck, to be a fire god, you have to be a Regional Director of Aviation and Fire Management like Lynn or a Regional Coordinator like the man who made me into a hotshot…Hub Harris.
Other than those type of people, you need to be a Type I Incident Commander, in my opinion to meet my definition of a fire god. To determine if a fire figure is a true fire god…just ask yourself the following question.
Can this person impact the lives of hundreds or even thousands of WF on any given day?
And if the answer is yes, for good or bad…then that person is a fire god.
Lynn Biddison is however…most respected and renowned because he is on record as being the SECOND youngest hotshot crew boss in history of hotshot crews at age 24.
Lynn’s record however….is somewhat questionable because he was a crew boss of a California R5 hotshot crew and well….we know about THOSE people don’t we?
Lynn became a hotshot crew at the age of 24, which is one year older than the youngest hot shot crew boss in history. That distinction goes to Gary Olson who was 23, even though when he was made crew boss they told him, “Hey you…ya you…you’re in charge until we find somebody better. In the meantime….try not to fuck it up….okay Cupcake?
And I said I didn’t know anything about Wayne. I just think Holly’s theories are wacked out and she is an apologist for Marsh and part of Mrs. Lohman’s inner circle of enablers and cronies.
No…I don’t speak Chinese, just Laotian, Vietnamese and I can get by with Hmong. Why do you ask?
And finally typing or spelling words phonetically means you do it by how they sound, which can really screw people up when they are learning how to speak English. For example…if you are spelling the word “know” phonetically, you would spell it “no”, like I did.
I think that’s it, but if I missed one, I will try and pick it up later or you could repeat the question or issue. Have a nice day! ; )
Gary,
I agree with most of all you posted down below and it was most confusing on where to answer some of your posts.
Lynn Biddison was a great man and a great mentor, even though he was from California.
‘Back in the day,’ on the Oak Grove Hot Shots in 1973, we only had two Homelite XL-12 chainsaws. The rest of the cutting tools were strap Brush Hooks, amazing tools. I too started out as a shovel and worked my way up to a Brush hook, and an honorable position at the time.
I was both a sawyer and a swamper on a Hot Shot Crew in the 1980’s.
I am conditioned to keep my guns and ammo stock with no modifications. If I am ever facing a problem that can’t be solved with a standard .556, a 7.62, or a 12 gauge slug, I am just going to pull up my pants and leave.
But…I still question using the same lower and bolt carrier group to shoot rounds like that because once again, I like my face without any parts from my gun embedded in it. But…I certainly admire your enthusiasm for experimentation.
Right on brother hotshot sawyer! From your posts over the past four years I thought you worked just one year on Oak Grove with our brother Bob and then you were born again as the Payson Hotshot Crew Boss for the next 26 years.
This just goes back to our age old argument, which one of us has the bigger junk. And even if you do…I will insist that it doesn’t matter because I use mine so much more skillfully than you do.
I guess it really just comes down to you holding the record for being the longest serving hotshot crew boss in history versus my being the youngest hotshot crew boss in history…who also founded a new hotshot crew. Mike Drop!
I obviously also didn’t like you writing that you discriminated against people who look like me in your hiring practices just because you think we eat to much food, drink too much water and can’t take the heat even though I agree with you as everyone else would.
Which again begs the question…just how fucking good do you think I had to be to walk on to a Mighty Coconino Hotshot Crew under Bill Buck and end up as it’s crew boss three years later facing that level of prejudice in the WF world? That’s why I can relate to women and gay men…I wasn’t wanted either, but I proved everyone wrong…including you brother.
Gary,
You posted: “This just goes back to our age old argument, which one of us has the bigger junk. And even if you do…I will insist that it doesn’t matter because I use mine so much more skillfully than you do.”
Okay. And,how do you know that you used yours “so much more skillfully”” than I did?
You also posted: “I obviously also didn’t like you writing that you discriminated against people who look like me in your hiring practices just because you think we eat to much food, drink too much water and can’t take the heat even though I agree with you as everyone else would.”
A good WF supervisor ‘discriminates’ every day in his or her position, but not in the legal sense of the word. It’s quite legal to ‘discriminate’ against large WF applicants that eat too much food, drink too much water, and can’t take the heat.
For being the self proclaimed youngest and roughest and toughest HS Supt. in the West from the alleged Mighty Coconino, you sure come across as what they call a “Snowflake” these days. .
Wikipedia ‘Snowflake’ definition
“Snowflake as a slang term involves the derogatory usage of the word snowflake to make reference to people. Its meaning has varied, but may include a person who has an inflated sense of their own uniqueness, has an unwarranted sense of entitlement, or is easily offended and unable to deal with opposing opinions. Common usages include the terms special snowflake, Generation Snowflake, and snowflake as a politicized insult”.
I have always admitted how sensitive, vulnerable, and fragile I am to my closest friends and confidants.
You’re like most men…you just don’t listen! You and your brother Bob have always been harsh with me and I will appreciate it if the two of you start being just a little bit sweeter towards me.
Oh…and one more thing. I never said your discrimination was illegal…I just said I didn’t like it. I also said back then and most recently I agreed with you.
Now who’s the snowflake…Snowflake?
It’s certainly not me. Just following through on the agree to disagree thing. Thanks for clarifying things and letting me know. You’ll be just fine, it’s okay to be a Snowflake.
Gary,
An interesting research paper for you if you are interested, concluding that “… regardless of the gender composition of the groups significantly lower quality decisions arose from groups with a directive rather than a participative leader. … and [their] findings suggest that in terms of decision outcome quality, good leaders encourage open inquiry to yield diverse alternatives for problem solutions.”
In other words, the “directive” – shut the f**k up and do what I tell you to do” method is inferior to the ‘participative’ leader. Feel free to read the paper to better understand this.
I don’t think you’re wrong, I just disagree with you.
Groupthink: Deciding with the leader and the devil
Chen, Zenglo; Lawson, Robert BAuthor InformationView Profile; Gordon, Lawrence R; McIntosh, BarbaraAuthor InformationView Profile. The Psychological Record; Heidelberg Vol. 46, Iss. 4, (Fall 1996): 581
. https://search-proquest-com.ezproxy.libproxy.db.erau.edu/docview/212668876?pq-origsite=summon
Who said anything about using a 5.56 barrel…I said it was lacking…
Of course you use a 6.5 barrel
How can you put a bigger bullet thru a smaller hole?
And a different bolt
Same carrier
And a metal magazine with a 6.5 follower
There is a lot of new cartridges that outperform the 5.56
Check out .22 Nosler and .224 Valkrie
And yes they use different barrels
Food and guns are my thing and widdling
And if you want to shoot those particular cartridges, why wouldn’t you just buy a gun that shoots those cartridges in the first place rather than substituting all of those gun parts?
And besides that, you do know that during the Zombie Apocalypse that is coming, the whole point is to have weapons that can shoot standard ammo that is readily available.
Plus the fact that when you build up your stockpile of ammo for the apocalypse, you can buy bulk full metal jacket .556 and 7.26×45 NATO…right?
And good luck finding those oddball rounds after Day 1 of the New World Order and Muslim jack booted thugs from the United Nations who arrive in black helicopters start putting God Fearing White Christian Citizens in FEMA concentration that are currently disguised as sports stadiums. : (
AHHH but you just. while I did not start on a Hot Shot crew I did start on a Dist. Engen for two years. Spent a lot of time on the working end of a shovel/McCloud/ and Yes a Chain Saw on the Sequoia NF. I even had the duty of packing those old metal 5 Gal Pumps. I ran a chain saw summer and winter
we Did thinning during the winter. Used the old Home lite 870 with a 36 inch bow bar. By the time I was a Eng. Foreman GS 5 I was a certified Faller. Lots of lighting Fires on the Sequoia.
I put in my time just did not start on a HS crew. .
Okay brother Bob…you win. In any case…I have always acknowledged that I stood on the shoulders and followed in the footsteps of men like you.
Especially those from the cradle of hotshot civilization…SoCal. You bad boys see the standards for the rest of us to emulate! God Bless you old timer!
I would just lighten up on the whole “I stated out as a hotshot supervisor in a hotshot culture where not even squad bosses work and then I only stayed two years before I leveraged that experience into a better job on up the ranks, in fact…I just did the hotshot thing as a carrier move, not because I loved the job.”
It makes guys like me question your dedication to the culture…guys that started at the bottom and worked up to a position like you walked into because that means you NEVER cut line as a hotshot…get it?
I’m just thinking of you and giving you some good advice on how you can fluff your story. You were a big shot in the other jobs you did like air attack…but to grunts and ground pounders like me…that don’t mean jack shit.
Almost all Asst. Sup. were already GS6 Tanker Foreman or other GS6 positions. Required a Crew Boss Red card and Past supervision.
Not more than 2 newbies were hired per crew. You had to have a minimum of 1 year as a FF to apply for a crew in Calif.
I also had 10 details on 10 fires as a Squad boss Chilao and 90 days as a detail as asst. sup Oak Grove Prior to Applying for the Job as Asst.
That was the way Calif. worked we also had 25 person crews.
Rocksteady,
Thanks for the 2016 BC Wildfire Conference presentations.
I consider Mr. John Maclean to be an accomplished, published author on wildland fire fatalities – certainly NOT an expert by any means.
His spew on the alleged ‘Climate Change’ was troubling because it has absolutely nothing to do with the GMHS dying on YH Fire June 30, 2013. I never drank and never will drink, the Climate Change (formerly known as Global Warming), kool-aid, which I believe to be junk science along with tens of thousands of skeptical and unbelieving scientists..
Dually noted RTS.
Good topic.
How does one know an author is an expert in what he claims in presentation?
There were many throughout the entire video factual errors and encouraged false leads.
How much attention was he paying to copyright law when he created slides for his presentation without crediting the origin?
I feel like when people mention “climate change” in a speech it is like they are gonna get published and get grants…and accolades…and a huge pat on the back and maybe a front page coverage….as the new world WFFs go in with 2 torches shouting “CLIMATE CHANGE,, AMEN!”—“Hoorah”
There is an awful alot of narrative concerning JOY A COLLURA’s private life and personal decison making capabilities that may or MAY NOT be true leading to insinuations that could lead under certain circumstances to litigation.
And all that odd personal inserts- what did that have to do with YHF clarity?
When you listen to the air to ground pilots they were all about “no joy”…but when you listen to John MacLean it was ALL ABOUT JOY
??????
If that is what he is presenting in this video on YHF—
I wonder HOW MUCH editorializing humor will be in the book or factual errors and encouraged false leads.
I encourage everyone to fact check now that I see this kind of rubbish.
YHF is a serious matter.
This is not Shakespeare people…we do not need comedy within a tragedy told in a public fire industry presentation-
19 men died-
Capture the video for it is in process to be removed.
Also WORLD NOTIFICATION-
so when google hashtags JOY A COLLURA — Yarnell Hill Fire Photos — Eyewitness to YHF
(by the way all you folks early on 2013 when you hiked me and asked me odd real estate stuff because you assumed I was a realtor…I was not online except hikeaz.c o m and the zazzle.c o m/congress _arizona* but to fill you in there is MORE THAN one JOY COLLURA in this world…(14 I know I of) one is 69 out of WI and likes gardening…one is 63 and is married also to a JOHN and SHE IS THE REALTOR out of FL…one is 45 out of PA…but let me close on this topic that is why you see me add “A” to my name
because there is only ONE JOY A COLLURA…(good thing too)
Due to the odd layers of the presentation of JOHN MACLEAN
I am requesting from this day forward from his team and retroactively (Per photo) must have my permission to use my data in any format unless it laid public already which a lot is out public but regardless it has always been well known to always give me photo credit and to obey copyrighted laws which this presentation failed. and to fact check data before placing it out.
And what does that have to do with the YHF and clarity- his inserts on us?
I feel it was unbecoming.
Not knowing me…. watching video
would you guess I have known my husband since 88’…dated in 91′ and married in 93′?
always been together…I just did not like the 5am to noon sleep pattern due to his work so took some adventures so I could get up early mornings versus sleep them…and other reasons…
and how is this insert in tone made appropriate for a long term marriage tying me to this older man Tex? Tex is classier than that and would not bed with a married lady especially some fat chick.
Would John like that if someone said that about his wife or family
if someone hiked with his wife (non-sexual but the guy would like to)—
that was dumb and to have a room laugh…what was even funny…real dumb.
I hiked John— should I tell you how far and details like such…come on really…
there is alot of reason I am asking for video to be removed and you will see just a glaze of some here…
I was Tex’s legal volunteer VA caregiver and AZ state legal POA and known him from Aug 2011 to Aug 2017 as he has had 7 heart attacks/leg thrombosis/stomach aneurysm concerns.lung blood clot and major heart disease and bad case of melanoma.
How can I address this author who if you read my emails from him came off more as a person who appreciated us and thought to us with adoration and admiration and calls me a friend and a source.
??????
why didn’t John MacLean talk on the presentation how we have found more data and evidence on our hike with him (pink ribbon tape) or as shown in photo below we took the time out of our lives FREELY to share the natural watering holes that were closer than the Hidden Ranch spot…and invested alot of our time for his crew which was more than just him and Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair… many more …. see in this photo we show in the background the watering spots to John:
https://plus.google.com/u/2/photos/112068160404980104272/album/5922175655744920065/5945430306147784514?authkey=CNDDgaG_gt2UAQ
https://plus.google.com/u/2/photos/112068160404980104272/album/5922175655744920065/5945426485700223522?authkey=CNDDgaG_gt2UAQ
and even Murry early on alerted our world to JOHN MACLEAN Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 8:01 AM when he said to us “Sonny, Again, I’m really interested in what you’re doing with this fire investigation. I’m wondering if the fire writer, John Maclean has shown up down there. I’m sure he will, but wondering what story he would write. This is very important what you are doing–I suppose you know that, but for firefighters it is really the case. So, keep me in the info. loop. All the best, Murry Taylor”
Yes we did not know WHO John was prior to Murry alerting us.
I bet the world did not even know this—
on Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 7:39 AM Willis wrote this to us—
Joy,
Wayne and Holly are special people who are set on finding out the truth. I trust them as well as John Maclean and provided them anything they wanted or needed from me. Thank you for spending time with them and giving them the details you have. I am committed to the truth on this tragedy as I know you are. Again, thank you for the e-mail and your encouraging words. I truly hope God blesses you. DW
I never got any negative vibes off them all EXCEPT people current and retired in the industry since December 2013 cautioned us about this crew and I thought why ???
I think in my humble opinion John was being light in his presentation and a hidden roast too because there is some errors when talking for example “squelching” area— he said that was area squelched; yes to 1 pic but other pic was Harper Canyon not an area squelched also he named 2 photos to be around noon and that is not accurate so I am factual when I say he needed to not use my photos and give false data to the public…and at 1:10pm we NEVER said the word SOUTH…hand gesturing our movements was said to Marsh a little after 8am not as it was shared in presentation.
..my take on presentation:
20:06 marker John, we walked from Prescott towards Yarnell recently before this hike events and we hiked Friday and Saturday too so YES WE WERE ASKED TO GET OUT OF THAT FIRE AREA SO THEY COULD DROP SLURRY DROPS…never was directly told to GET OFF THE MOUNTAIN just that area so they could make their drops because we were not geared for it…the photo you show we left THAT SPOT at 1:11pm but had not YET left the ridge or Weavers but were heading out and it took a couple hours later to go Sonny’s way (WHICH IS TODAYS GMHS MEMORIAL TRAIL STATE PARK)…
.20:17 that is misleading FOR REALS…we never saw Eric up close again at 1:10pm…we saw him hours before and was told to leave that specific area so they could make a slurry drop because we were not geared for it…never was told to leave the Weavers…and also we never ever said SOUTH…the very first meet and greet he asked best way to fire and Sonny told him and then we said our intentions and he never said TURN AROUND on the 1st meet and greet or 2nd but he did ask what way we were going and I pointed never even said SOUTH…I said after getting a few pics for the locals because Sat. the YFD said it was all under control so we were getting a few pics then I pointed to away from the fire to the 2 track ridge with a right to left movement with my right hand pointing…
for almost 40 minutes Sonny took off and left me not 10 minutes…and JOHN MACLEAN…Joy DID NOT PLOP ON THE GROUND— I have bilateral peripheral neuropathy and I was wearing snakeboots and I had hiked from Prescott to almost Yarnell recently before this weekend and I was already just that week documented over more miles than you do in a year on a HOT week WITH edema flairing up so let’s not make me LOOK LAZY with the PLOPS ok…I wanted to check my feet out for they hurt alot…so I took my boots off…we never said SOUTH…and I did not say I was tired; I got tired in the wash by Acri’s area the most and that is facts but above the Helms I was just HOT and missing the WATER Sonny took for the 40 minutes not 10 minutes…I just needed to check my legs but Sonny was aggravated because he saw that fire and he wanted to get the hell out so I said go on…I think he came back because he realized he left with the pack with all the waters in it and realized if he did not go back and get me he may get a murder charge but he did not callously leave me to die and he took my bag thinking I would hurry up and follow since he took my bag…we were both overheated….and we disagreed on where to go down because I wanted to go the cattle tank way and Sonny wanted to go less vegetation
…by the way the whole mention of SENIOR MATCH; why???…I WAS NOT LOOKING FOR A HIKING PAL…truth…Kat in June 2011 asked me to look at her profiles…I do not do internet then…I said NO…July she reasked…NO…she wrote down the link and she made me a profile to sign in on because she said she knew I did not want to waste the time doing that so she did it NOT ME (investigate the ip address who signed up and confirm I am right) and I was waiting for my hubby to get home and I peaked at her profiles way early in the morning 3rd week in August 2011 and I laughed SOOOO hard at Sonny’s profile and it is still all on there for anyone to view….I sent Kat a comment and said maybe he would 2 step with you…I emailed him about history…numismatics…guns…and our hikes…and one time he came and got me for the hike BUT because he got pulled over by the cops that night my husband picked me up because we learned Sonny did not carry good insurance and that matters to us in case of an accident …call us cookie cutters I reckon…but we began hiking adventures West of the Grand Canyon and then it carried on to other areas— for him it was good at times to have company but I was too much the motherly kind…yet there was and will always be that dysfunctional emotional layer only because of the roots of our beginnings as kids…we were like 2 kids out there but hell at times we did have the label “the old married couple…he’s old and I am married” but we were never anything traditional or normal just a thing where we both loved the outdoors so intensely and so much…the twist or failure happened when I misunderstood a loved one and their path and I am glad looking back it all unfolded as it has because I like being in Congress—we have the most wiggley hearted folks…learned alot more than I could ever in a book living off the land with Sonny…yet from this point forward I have to learn to understand cookie cutter life again…there was alot of layers to me knowing Sonny and yet I am not made to know anyone 24/7…how could I do all that when I am married? Which you do not see John even mentioning on that presentation that I have known my husband since 1988 and dated in 1991 and married in 1993…if a newbie saw that presentation there is no talk of my husband and that long history I still have with him…but my husband has this God awful ODD schedule and it is not easy to live those weird hours—my sleep times are 5am to noon…and I am a morning person so yeah I really did like the wake up times hanging with Sonny…but it was WEIRD to see those jabs on me from John MacLean so now when his friends told me John is making front of you…I see….but knowing John MacLean it is not to be misleading or mischievous just being light hearted I hope ???
7:28 Eric is on right photo…
I do not have a nervous tick and Sonny is WITNESS that on June 30 2013 I had my camera in my backpack and Sonny would ask me to take it out so BLAME SONNY because he wanted the pics not me….I am given the less than professional respect…but maybe because I am a housewife hiker…who cares…but I am still gonna correct areas…we ain’t famous figures…funny…yes we did some endurance hikes…huh…
at 13:28 when John mentions winds…what about the Lewis crew interview I had that shared more than that…what about their tactics on the fire…because the homeowners have shown me a well bedded down fire and they have documents showing folks up there Friday and Saturday…just because the crew is quiet—there is a story in the photos of the locals and some of the people that were there for the fire even the Lewis prison crew. 14:32- some WERE over-fatigued and there is proof of that.
19:04 marker was a joke for Marsh and us to see—that was fudged up moment….we actually saw the reactions of that moment…that is where you see the photo of them at bay where he does not show you but John has that photo—the men at rest. AND I did NOT LOSE 1000s plus photos—they were stolen….John is identifying my mystery man???? he has opened the can of worms….
there is plenty more—
yet I am tired.
I have other areas to work on…
I like John. I like Holly. My heart breaks for Alan.
All I ask when people watch that presentation that there are areas that are not anything but glorified editorializing and inaccuracies…
Now due to so many books that are already out that did not fact check with the eyewitnesses—
I think I need to make a public statement on any future areas of books due out or whatever platform—-any area using us in their whatever it may be—
Both the hikers sincerely request that you adhere to the following conditions of use:
(1.) each separate photo and or cropping or graphic editing of the same intended to be incorporated in any/all forms of presentation to others, requires both eyewitnesses written permission as well look at final product to make sure nothing of value was removed from photo to mislead.
(2) Captions are to be fact checked and agreed upon by us, also, it is important to note, that research by other parties into the causes and conduct of the YHF, independent of your own efforts, continues to this day, as such, subjective coloration or snide remarks, casting adverse aspersions on, either, mine or Tex’s character and or conduct with respect to my overall first person witness “credibility” and or the “veracity” of specific statement content (attributed to myself or Tex) will not be tolerated.
Your apparent preference to frame mine and Tex’s words and character as being, little less than, comedic relief is demeaning and only succeeds in providing your audience with a false perception of TRUTH and FACTS , the video presentation (https://vimeo.com/209478600) as it stands, serves as little else than a pretension of absolute truth and might, otherwise serve as the basis of claims constituting libel or slander. This instance might have, easily, been avoided…had you and your team taken the opportunity to fact check with us, aforehand.
side note: I do have a recording from one of his team members apologizing to me in person and I exclude this person and they know who they are- I exclude them from being any part to this presentation yet they too must follow above request now thanks to John-
Special thank you from people in the industry who tried to find that video for a long time from the West Coast to East Coast in the USA and they personally thank Rocksteady of another country for showing the hikers this video. We too thank you. I heard third party stuff over time but it was nice to see this video as it helps me prepare for the future of his book that we all have longed to read…
the only ones who will see my video this week will be ones who are added on to email list for it will be set to private so I can really share more to my family and friends…
Sorry, this video is unavailable
Vimeo has removed or disabled access to the video WFC2016 – From Storm King Mountain to Yarnell Hill: Common elements of multiple fatality wildland fires. John Maclean. as a result of a third-party notification by Joy A Collura that claims this material is infringing on their copyright.
This video was removed on Thursday, December 14, 2017 At 9:46 AM. A public record of this claim is available here.
when you posted above it ended with HERE
so here is the HERE:
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**
** NOW YOU CAN GET YOUR OWN COMMEMORATIVE ‘GRANITE MOUNTAIN ASSAULT RIFLE’…
** CO-DESIGNED BY BRENDAN MCDONOUGH
The madness continues.
Brendan McDonough has worked with a company called ‘Battle Tested Equipment’ to co-design a new ‘commemorative’ ‘Granite Mountain Assault Rifle’.
Yes. You heard right. ASSAULT RIFLE. ( AR-15 style ).
The first 19 are being ‘raffled off’ with 100 percent of the proceeds going to the ‘Wildland Firefighter Foundation’.
I kid you not.
https://www.facebook.com/brendan.j.mcdonough/photos/a.464554590378071.1073741828.463942307105966/910280829138776/?type=3&theater
On that page on McDonough;’s PUBLIC Facebook site…
PHOTO: Brendan McDonough holding one of the new Granite Mountain commemorative assault rifles.
PUBLIC COMMENT ( by Brendan McDonough )
——————————————————————————————————-
Had an amazing time with Battle Tested Equipment today, using flamethrowers, shooting machine guns and launching bowling balls, but most importantly we had a great day honoring our veterans and first responders. We raffled 2 of of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial rifles with many more to come to benefit the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. I had the opportunity to safety test fire the first memorial rifle and will safety test fire the remaining 18 rifles. You can buy raffle tickets through Battle Tested Equipment. Check out my Instagram for videos (at)donut_928!!! #freedomfridays #flamethrower #machineguns #tributerifle #gmihc
———————————————————————————————————–
Brendan McDonough also posted the following message on his public Facebook page when the new ‘Granite Mountain Assault Rifle’ first became available and verifies that he himself helped ‘design’ this assault weapon…
———————————————————————————————————-
Brendan Mcdonough – November 5 at 9:16am
Battle Tested Equipment has created an amazing tribute rifle for my 19 Brothers. The owner George took a great sense of pride and dedication to ensuring the rifles were authentic and honoring. We worked hand in hand to make sure this rifle was a true tribute.
They are donating 100% of the proceeds from the first 19 rifles to the Wildland Firefighter Foundation. They are also donating 50% of the proceeds from rifles 21-9999 to the WFF as well as other NonProfits.
These rifles are 100% hand built in Phoenix Arizona using Battle Tested components made by proud and free Americans. These rifles feature our mil spec receiver sets and our lightweight free float hand guards. We also used our match grade 5.56 barrels, Nitride Bolt Carriers, Recoil Management System and 3.5# Match Trigger.
To learn more on how to purchase raffle tickets or purchase a rifle check out Battle Tested Equipment on Facebook, Instagram, and there website https://www.bte-usa.com/
———————————————————————————————————-
You. Just. Can’t. Make. This. Shit. Up.
Dumbfounded, I am…dumbfounded. I would really like to share my thoughts other than just that word about this latest very disturbing development with you….who are indeed my closest friends and confidants. But I can’t…my mind is blank right now except for the word…dumbfounded.
Well…that’s not exactly right, my mind is actually swirling with a veritable kaleidoscope of confused thoughts. Kind of like a “Clockwork Orange” confusion as in a, “Why did they make this movie?” bewilderment, breakdown in logic and the natural order of things.
I mean…the last time I heard about Brendon McDonough, he was a relapsed cokehead rookie hotshot with a criminal record who is best known for wandering around on the Yarnell Hill Fire looking for the right spot to be burned alive who thought he deserved to move up in life after a few short months on a hotshot crew because he wanted to spend more time with the daughter he accidentally fathered because his condom broke..
How sweet. Here’s another true story from my time on the job. When my oldest daughter turned 23, we had a family birthday party for her during which she said, “You know dad, this is my first birthday I remember you being here for.” She made this statement without sarcasm, bitterness or rancor, but rather as a simple statement of fact.
Yes…being away from home is tough while doing those kinds of jobs, but until everything people who do those jobs get paid to do happens close to home, it comes with the paycheck and now…retirement : ) . And if you can’t accept those conditions, don’t apply for those jobs…bitch! (non gender specific)
Wait…I have sat here long enough reminiscing about my glory days that the right words to describe how I feel about this latest sad chapter in the aftermath of Yarnell Hill Fire have finally come to me. Those words are…”non sequitur.”
The disconnect in my brain between a firearm manufacturing company named, “Battle Tested Equipment, commemorative Granite Mountain Hotshots assault rifles, and Brendon McDonough writing, “These rifles feature our mil spec receiver sets and our lightweight free float hand guards. We also used our match grade 5.56 barrels, Nitride Bolt Carriers, Recoil Management System and 3.5# Match Trigger.” is just too wide for my mind to bridge and confusing except for the words…”non sequitor” as in, “it does not follow.” WTF…Over?
U.S. Forestry employee and SAIT Co-lead Mike Dudley said ( publicly ) that as far as ignoring the rules of the profession and dropping into a blind box canyon full of explosive fuel with no lookout and less than 1/2 mile in front of a wind-driven, spotting wildfire goes…
…that “99 times out of hundred things things will turn out okay”.
You only get to DIE once.
Eric Marsh himself also said, in his own employee evaluation report just a few months before he and the men in his charge would all burn to death…
“It is a challenge for me to run a program that has minimum standards that I am unable to meet”.
So in order for this to be a ‘true’ Granite Mountain Commemorative Assault Rifle…
…does that mean it just barely passes safety standards and might fire okay for a while… but then it will suddenly blow up in your face and kill you?
Well…given the fact that Sad Sack helped them design the rifle and he thinks the rules are hillbilly and don’t have to followed because they are so much smarter now…I would say who knows what standards were used in their design and manufacturing process?
So a catastrophic failure of their commerative firearm is not only likely to happen, it is just a matter of time. And when it does finally happen, no one will be surprised and just shrug and say, “ I always knew it was going to happen sooner or later.”
The other word I thought of to describe my feelings is, “inappropriate.” But then again, perhaps Sad Sack has been following the progression of and techniques utilized in the marketing of GMIHC and YHF memorabilia by the Eric Marsh Foundation For Wildland Firefighter Safety and has noticed how loose their standards are in doing anything to make a buck…so he figures, “why not, who cares?”
I mean…Mrs. Lohman is offering her photos for sale and she is going to donate 20% of her profits to the foundation. And I don’t even know where to start with her mixing the whole saving the horses thing in with their goal of saving future wildland firefighters from supremely arrogant and egotistically driven supervisors like Eric Marsh who will put their career advancement before the safety of their firefighters.
And besides that, I had wayyyyy to much experience with dealing with the wild ferrell herds of mustang horses and burros whose ancestors were left by the Spanish Conquistadors who now roam public lands and are protected by the Wild Horse and Burro Act. All because Congress designated the BLM as being the primary enforcement agency of that act.
Unfortunately….those animals are kinda like the rabbits in Australia and since they don’t have any natural predators who keep their population in check and they breed like rabbits while overgrazing and tearing up public lands…my sympathies to save horses were severely tested and as far as I am concerned..we should sponsor all you eat buffets for the French. I mean…”They Shoot Cows Don’t They?”
And that way we could start to pay down all of the new national debt we are getting ready to put on the national credit card to give corporations giant tax breaks even though they are already sitting on historically record amounts of cash.
I would say 99 out of a 100 never make that choice when they have 400 Ac. of black. One made the choice and 19 died.
Agree.
You have to love that phrase that Mike Dudley so casually used when he was speaking to that roomful of firefighters on June 20, 2014.
“99 time out of a hundred”.
Anyone who coins that phrase is actually saying…
“The odds are one hundred to one.”
That doesn;t mean ( as some people think ) that you can do something risky 99 times and only on attempt one hundred will your risky behavior bite you ( and the people in your charge ) in the ass.
It means it could happen on ANY attempt.
What if the FIRST time you roll that one-hundred sided dice they come up snake-eyes?
You only get to DIE once.
The only cure is prevention.
If you want to gamble… go to Vegas and use your OWN money…and NOT the lives of the men/women whose lives you are responsible for.
Well said for the both of you.
Regarding Bob’s comment: “One made the choice and 19 died.” I would add that yes, ‘one made the choice and 19 men,’ with a select few of the GMHS knowing this was wrong, and yet all under the dangerous influence of Groupthink, followed each other down the steep slopes and chutes filled with decadent chaparral, into a deadly bowl at the worst possible time.
And FYI, I am still not surrendering my original position that all hotshot crews with the exception of the Oak Grove Hotshots under Bob, the Payson Hotshots under Fred and possibly a few other hotshot crews who might also have been infected with the even more potentially deadly malady for Type 1A crews known as “individualism”, which is also commonly called, “what about ME and what I think” fallacy have flourished under “groupthink”, which is also known by the more common hotshot name of, “Shut the fuck up and do what you are told to do, when you are told to do it, how you are told to do it and for as long as you are told to do it, or until somebody under whose authority you are laboring…tells you to stop doing whatever it is you are doing and start doing something else” which is the very definition of what it means to be a hotshot while managing to capture the very essence of what it means to be one of the best of the best.
That was how I was raised to perform on a hotshot crew, and that was how I raised every crewman on my hotshot crews to behave. That is the hotshot way…and the right way. If you would have ever been able to examine what was in the thought bubble over my head up until it was my job to think about what I should have been doing as a hotshot…you would have seen a blank, empty bubble. That is because I was not only trained to follow orders…I instinctively knew that the senior crewmen, the squad bosses, but more likely my crew boss knew what I should be doing better than I did. That was why they were in charge and I wasn’t. I also instinctively knew that fighting wildfires is much more of an art than it is a science because of the very dangerous, highly volatile and dynamic circumstances hotshot crews can find themselves in at any given moment while battling a wildfire where split second decisions may mean the difference between life and a really bad death which in my book includes being burned alive where you would find yourself coughing up chunks of your charred lungs so hard the frenulum in your mouth would no longer connect your tongue to the back of your mouth.
The system I describe has been very successful and has managed to make sure every hotshot has gone home (not in a body bag, not counting random accidents) after countless fires for 70 years now except for 12 members of the El Caruso Hotshots on the Loop Fire of 1966, 3 members including the crew boss of the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Crref Fire of 1976 and 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots including their crew boss on the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013. I believe the deaths of 9 Hotshots from the Prineville Hotshots on the South Canyon Fire on Storm King Mountain is an anomaly because they were under the direction of an Incident Commander and not their crew boss at the time they were killed. I will take those odds any time and be willing to bet not only my life on, that gamble, but the lives of those I love as well.
Therefore, I firmly believe ”Shut the fuck up and do what you are told to do, when you are told to do it, how you are told to do it and for as long as you are told to do it, or until somebody under whose authority you are laboring…tells you to stop doing whatever it is you are doing and start doing something else”, which is also known as the, “If I want any shit out of you…I will squeeze your head” Hotshot Crew methodology is the correct way for every hotshot crew to operate…period.
Any questions?
Oh…and one more thing. If there is anyone out there who is still following this blog who is thinking about trying to get on a hotshot crew. and make it, .you had best follow my model rather than the fantasy that Bob and Fred have pushed for four years now.
If…on the other hand, you want to have a very short career as a hotshot? Just start off by explaining to your squad boss and crew boss how important you are as an individual, just how fucking Special your mother thinks you are, how many good ideas you have, and how many Blue Ribbons you earned in your life as a successful “Participant.”
Be sure and let me know how that works out for you, because I would like to conduct a scientific experiment to evaluate and determine just how ridiculous and unsuccessful the Oak Grove Hotshot Way actually is when applied to real life.
I am pretty sure I couldn’t get a job as a laborer on a construction site or any other job for that matter and have that work out for me. How about playing for a professional, college or sand lot team? Do you really think the coaches want to hear about whatever is rattling around inside your head?
Fuck me…can we at least bury that stupid idea?
On the contrary, your “Shut the fuck up and do what you are told to do, when you are told to do it, how you are told to do it and for as long as you are told to do it, or until somebody under whose authority you are laboring…tells you to stop doing whatever it is you are doing and start doing something else” is the very essence of Groupthink.
And then there is the amazingly successful, Israeli Defense Force’s “10th Man” doctrine. Allegedly, if 9 people in a room agree on a certain thing it is the DUTY of the 10th man to disagree.
“Following the Yom Kippur War (1973) which took Israeli military intelligence by surprise, institutions were put in place to reduce the chances that group think and overly dominant commanders would prevent diverse opinions from reaching decision makers or from being initiated at all. One of these was a unit often referred to as the devil’s advocate office.
“As described by Yosef Kupperwasser, who used to head the Research Division of the IDF, in Lesson’s From Israel’s Intelligence Reforms.
:
“The devil’s advocate office ensures that AMAN’s intelligence assessments are creative and do not fall prey to group think. The office regularly criticizes products coming from the analysis and production divisions, and writes opinion papers that counter these departments’ assessments. The staff in the devil’s advocate office is made up of extremely experienced and talented officers who are known to have a creative, “outside the box” way of thinking. Perhaps as important, they are highly regarded by the analysts. As such, strong consideration is given to their conclusions and their memos go directly to the office of the Director of Military Intelligence, as well as to all major decision makers. The devil’s advocate office also proactively combats group think and conventional wisdom by writing papers that examine the possibility of a radical and negative change occurring within the security environment. This is done even when the defense establishment does not think that such a development is likely, precisely to explore alternative assumptions and worst-case scenarios.”
Sources: Deep Politics Forum, KING’ORI, Lifehacker.com.
Well…I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I will continue to pray to the fire gods for your redemption and eventual salvation because I think you are worth it!
Gary,
It’s a very simple and permissible conclusion to draw on your “Shut the fuck up and do what you are told to do …” rant. It is Groupthink.and certainly encourages it at a minimum.
So yes, we will have to agree to disagree and because I am right.
Yes…it is.
You heretic! May the fire gods have mercy on your soul.
And like I wrote four years ago…everything I think is “ generally speaking”, because there are exceptions to everything.
For example, when I was a crewman…I decided how to use the tool they put in my hands, but I did it like I was trained to use it, generally speaking. And if either the Lead Pulaski or the Last Shovel yelled take more, I decided how much more I should take.
If one of them yelled, “take less”, I determined how much less I should take, because that wasn’t an exact science either.
And I tried at all times to watch my spacing to do everything I could not to amputate the foot of the person in front of me and to reduce the chances the person behind me amputated mine.
It got a little more complicated when I became the Lead Pulaski, and then a swamper for the sawyer, then a sawyer, then the second squad boss, then the Number 2 and finally the crew boss.
But it was still pretty simple…all I had to do was follow the examples of those who came before me, because I also instinctively knew how important tradition, history and culture…in addition to TRADITION was to a U.S. Forest Service Hotshot Crew.
And when the National Park Service started the very first “other” hotshot crew, the Arrowhead Hotshots back in my day, they did the same by following the example of the U.S. Forest Service Hotshots they hired to start that crew and so on and so forth.
One hotshot crew begat the next, all of the way back to the cradle of hotshot civilization in SoCal…on either the Angeles or the Cleveland National Forests in either 1947 or 1948…who the fuck knows?
GARY SAID:
For example, when I was a crewman…I decided how to use the tool they put in my hands, but I did it like I was trained to use it, generally speaking. And if either the Lead Pulaski or the Last Shovel yelled take more, I decided how much more I should take.
JOY’S REPLY:
what about Woodsman and his 2 torches—how many did you carry Gary? how many did you bring back “empty”?
I guess I missed that one?
But…we never used drip torches to either ignite backfires or for burning out pockets of unturned fuel. We only used fuses, which are large road flares and I think they are also called “railroad flares”?
We did however, use drip torches exclusively for broadcast or prescribed burns and for burning cat or hand piles.
As far as the fire line went, the standard issue number of fusees for everyone except for the swampers or sawyers to carry was two when we weren’t expecting to need any for planned burn operations. Those were for emergency use if things went to hell in a hand basket.
For planned operations that were built into the shift plan, we carried as many fusees as we could manage or were available to us, because you can never have too many fusees.
It’s a little more complicated than that because we often ignited backfires and did burnouts independent of planned operations because their were no plans, Plans Chief (Operations Chief -Plans…I think) etc. yet because that usually happened during the first 36 hours (or more) on the fire line when the fire was being managed by Chaos.
So…when flying out we would often take the case of fusees we always traveled with because fusees were never available where we were going yet.
Just like nothing else was available on the fire yet either. That is what made Hotshot crews…hotshot crews. They showed up ready to hit the fireline independent of anything anyone else was doing or had done.
And…Hotshots could be sent out to independently operate safely and productively without any support or oversight from the fire team, who was working as hard as they could to bring some order to complete chaos…without worrying about hotshot crews pulling a Marsh behind their backs.
That is the lasting damage Eric Marsh did to every hotshot and every hotshot crew in the nation…now and forever.
Oh…and we would take all of the extra supplies we traveled with in addition to the case of fusees with us as well.
Those supplies were In addition to everyone carrying their own water and food supply based on their projected needs for the first 36 hours. We also took out extra saw gas, cases of rats, headlamp batteries and cubes of water, etc. if it was possible depending on how we were going from a base heliport or drop point to were the flames were or other place we were starting from.
There are an infinite number of variables that come with every wildfire, which is why the fire gods created hotshot crews in their image.
I mean…think about it. Hotshot crews have worked countless shifts in the worst conditions imaginable on countless wildfires over the last 70 years and only three of those shifts have ended in what I would call a catastrophic way. Which are pretty good odds…I think.
And I guess I am going to have to revise the military equivalent for a hotshot crew, if there is a military equivalent because fires don’t aim while shooting back from Marine Infantry, to a Special Forces (Green Beret) A-Team during small fires where Hotshots go out in modules rather than in squad or crew strength and during the time period complex wildfires are being managed by Chaos.
I am however, sticking with any WF comparison to SEALS (if there is one) as belonging to the smokejumpers.
isn’t funny…when I was just learning about the industry
Murry Taylor- he was our first person in the start of your industry to talk with us-
http://www.jumpingfire.com/author.html
he is a hoot. Some have other names depending who is speaking but he laid it straight to us from the get go-
Hybrid Norb explained the BEST in person though and Dr Ted Putnam almost another year older is still on Mann Gulch…
correction—
isn’t it funny not isn’t funny
I think it is time for a boiled with skin on banana
and I think Alaska Smokejumpers are the elite ones— after seeing all the different industries I have humble preference to the neat stories of those- and probably because Sonny and I were next to go to Alaska when the YHF happened and I had to stay for doctor visits….so probably because I get lost in their stories like reading an old western…
Murry A Taylor will be 77 this Spring and yet you hear him talk—he does not seem that age—
This once in blue moon kinda guy Murry I will never forget…the planning and the selecting…maintaining the proper equipment, getting your body and mind into the right condition and that was not for smokejumping but for the artistic flair of deer hunting— Sonny knows all too well what he was saying for he fed his own family as a kid…I just listened…
Murry is more rare than a lunar eclipse…there is something to be said about the ebb and flow because without him entering the picture I do believe both Sonny and I would of went on with our lives and away from the YHF but it was HIS WORDS that stuck with us…as I like to be tethered to the ground both Sonny and Murry soar freely into the sky…
Since 2011 the back and forth nature of the mountain man and desert walker sort of kinda created this elastic bond which certainly gets stretched to its limit, yet somehow remained unbroken with both of us sacrificing along the way…we are no longer on the trails for Sonny is soaring in the skies and I am well grounded to Congress…yet the foundation is there- we are in it to see the YHF and other fires get their TRUTHS told…
But had to say something Gary when you said what you did on smokejumpers…
I also like Charlie Moseley (CJ-62) who died at 73 in April 2014…Moseley spent many years working for the U.S. Bureau of Land Management as a smokejumper fighting forest fires in Oregon and Alaska and also worked for Air America in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War. He sure was the best- He really loved Sonny and how we trailed…he called us and kept in touch the most out of everyone…
then there is the super cool Johnny Kirkley that John MacLean is really the core reason I got to meet all these fine men…thank you John…
http://johnmacleanbooks.com/SmokejumperMagazine0714.pdf
I mean John introduced us to Dr Ted Putnam and Wayne and Holly Neill and Stephen Pyne and Charlie and Johnny Kirkley…and someone behind the scenes and not yet fact checked or confirmed but even EN has been told to me to be tied and never formally told to me from John or EN but I never even bothered to ask either because I don’t much need to know so it is rumored third party that maybe my intro calls from EN in the start (2013) was from him and makes sense because it fits in with all the others coming in the pic same time…but Efran and weather channel was John Dougherty…what a journey hearing so many stories but yeah I do like the Alaskan stories and maybe just maybe I will get there some day…
Mmmmmm….boiled banana with the skin on…one of my favorites.
You said something, but you didn’t say anything about the Woodsman and his two torches, what is that about.
As far as Alaska jumpers being the best, that isn’t what I have always heard. Of course I heard it from U.S. Forest Service smokejumpers from the lower 48 and they were talking about BLM jumpers in Alaska since there aren’t any USFS jumpers in AK and there aren’t any BLM jumpers down here except when they exchange those on details I guess.
So anyway, I always heard AK was where the sick and old jumpers go to die because up there the trees don’t grow over 5 or 6 feet tall and all of the landing zones are flat and very soft tundra to land on.
But…like the Woodsman say’s, WTF do I know? I never flew the friendly skies…I just humped it up the mountain as a ground pounder and a grunt.
And as far as jumpers being the ones to be compared to SEALS, I was just trying to explain which box I think they are in because people like to make those comparisons to the military to help themselves and others understand how firefighting works and what the different types do.
The think smokejumpers are the SEALS because they are higher trained than Hotshots are, their physical fitness standards are higher and they tend to be older and more experienced WF who are often former Hotshots. But mostly because they go to small remote fires they handle on their own and never suit up on fight large project as smokejumpers, they only do it as overhead who just happen to be smokejumpers and that was how Dr. Putnam ended up on the Battlement Creek Fire.
It’s complicated, but it is all part of what I have always seen my job on this thread…explain stupid stuff to outsiders ad nauseam while I write my book on this thread by drips and drabs.
to answer you Gary about torches:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/#comment-473012
In other words, almost all of the interior of the Great State of Alaska where the fires burn is nothing more than vast, empty tundra with small stunted trees from the long and very cold winters.
As you know…I am a native Alaskan and most people are disappointed to learn the only remarkable thing about most of Alaska is just how fucking big and plentiful mosquitoes are among the hundreds of thousands little lakes surrounded by nothing but flat marshes and tundra except for more small lakes surrounded by some more flat marshes and tundra…with a few stunted trees thrown in.
My advice…stick to southeast Alaska except for Denali or if you are willing to go as far north as the Brooks and Alaskan Mountain ranges, but by then you will be above the Artic Circle where it really gets ugly.
Generally speaking….Alaska sucks.
I met some of the finest people in our hikes, people you want to add to your friends list because they are the front-liners and heroes that America looks up to.
That’s what makes it’s so hard to see the truth hidden from public view since that truth would save many lives in there future firefighting efforts.
Just as Doctor Ted Putman, psychologist and smokejumper, puts it quote
“it is sad when reputations are put before lives. Joy’s journeys with you will always remain a fascination.”
If the limits were stretched many times but the experiences are invaluable.
There’s much more to this life then that cookie cutter Realm can understand.
Thanks for the Post.
I have tried alot of times to post this
and it says DUPLICATE yet not posted
ugh
ok
thank you Gary for that insight—so grimm
Gary I am looking for back country and off beat paths to Alaska…or Katmai for salmon but I would not challenge a bear for a shot at one…but sure like the ice caves too…
Yes Sonny to answer you- invaluable…priceless— yet it was our opposing values as I am a water sign and you are a fire sign that we had to work diligently to find common grounds…the great outdoors was just that; our common grounds. Trying to conform to one another’s lifestyle literally goes against our very natures….both head strong… you always gave me the feeling like a bird whose wings have been clipped and I always felt we both knew at a distance the value in what we embarked on because you never knew about state land permits
And if you want to really KNOW history most these folks hired on have their own interesting colorful pasts yet they get to gladly give you a ticket and tell you ignorance is not recognized–
-know the law….
Recently Dan J. said to these prospectors they can do this and that and after they left I told him I know you are almost 90 and a retired Yavapai sheriff but he is not up on the current laws himself I explained…
Recently I hiked a city boy with Danielle, Grace and Annie and he said we cannot go in that area we are all illegal and the girls all stepped in and said no Joy has us all good and Joy has not only written permission of the law but even private land owners permissions….
Yes I do.
There is a cold case investigation going on in my desert and one of my vlogs is on PRIVATE with email invite only because I did not want to publicly embarrass an officer of YCSO for what I found of his/hers that should be on them at all times and with the timing a few weeks back of the PV police chief missing his weapon 4 days without knowing it—
I thought lay low
but I knew it was not a prospecting event YET no proper identification or boundaries or taping was done for it is highly a dangerous spot they now created
so I reported it and they temp. taped it
but it is not properly handled still as I travel the area the tape was taken down…it is a high level liability on their part on state land area 1.3 miles away from the nearest home and about same to the elementary school…
they expect us to follow the law but not them…so again to my point Sonny alot of these folks in charge are not doing right themselves but it does not matter— tickets and fines made and you are in court doing a bullshit so you did learn from me do not be ignorant—
Remember Sonny they were going to give you 6 felony counts that one time until I flashed them your credentials that I carried with me because I knew you would tell them you were grandfathered in….
We both learned alot on that long journey path and wishing you only the best wherever life is allowing you to soar…
but I want the world to know Sonny is beyond borrowed time with all those stents and 7 heart attacks and leg thrombosis and a stomach aneurysm concern and heart disease so bad and this couple cm blood clot on your lungs…and not attending that melanoma…you are just not properly caring for it and maybe you are ready to see Ted but remember He has the plan…maybe it is Ted Putnam you gotta see not your son
For each petal on a shamrock may you feel the Irish blessings-
and as time unfolds may the hinges of our friendship never grow rusty….
Dia dhuit mo chara…saol ghrá
h t t p://w w w.telegraph.c o.uk/travel/destinations/north-america/united-states/alaska/articles/alaska-most-beautiful-state-in-usa/alaska 14/
h t tp s://w w w.adn.c om/resizer/pCW5ITxxUPC95Hm9PXBsZ1JC4b8=/1200×0/s3.amazonaws.com/arc-wordpress-client-uploads/adn/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/27091050/wild-ice.jp g
(I SHOULD be getting a commission from the state for how many people I educated and they purchased one)
(also do know there is the FREE permanent hunting card for disabled veterans h t t ps://w w w.azgfd.c o m/PortalImages/files/licenses/specialLicense/specialLicenseUpdated/Disabled%20Veterans%20License%20Application%20052016.p df )
(h tt p
s:/ /land.az.g ov/sites/default/files/Individual-Family_Printable_Permit_Application_0.pd f )
and the very NEW PROGRAM most have no clue about because they LOVE to sleep out on BLM but the new thing is EVEN BLM has joined in on this money making permit situation-
h tt p s:/ /w w w.blm.g ov/programs/recreation/passes
h ttp s:/ /www.blm.g o v/node/7475
even Forestry is a part in the permit stuff but you know that Sonny by all the many warnings when you were once a logger—no, Sonny not for wood— enjoy: ht tps://w w w.fs .fed. us/visit/passes-permits
Let us not forget the OFF THE GRID folks— a permit for you all too—they call them Long Term Visitors To An Area—ht tp s:/ /freecampsites.ne t/bl m-ltvas/
Do not collect wood, even downed wood, in the desert for your campfires or any other purposes; please leave it in place, as it provides necessary habitat for desert wildlife.
Long Term Permit
Valid for the entire season or any part of the season which runs from September 15 to April 15. Is valid for all winter LTVAs in both California and Arizona.
Cost $180 (about $0.86 per night)
Short Term Permit
Valid for 14 consecutive days from the purchase date.
Cost $40 ($2.86)
Off-Season
Between April 16th and September 14, you may stay at an LTVA for up to 14 days. There is no fee to do so.
——————————————-
Arizona Winter LTVAs (2)
The permit fees for Arizona Winter LTVAs are the same as the California. However, unlike CA LTVAs, AZ LTVAs are not free in the off season. A $10 per vehicle fee for day-use, $15 per vehicle for overnight use, or $75 annually per vehicle, for up to 5 people per vehicle is charged. $1 per additional person over the 5 person limit. The maximum stay is 14 days in a 28-day period.
La Posa LTVA
Located approximately 2 miles south of Quartzsite, this is the most popular of the LTVAs. Every winter, Quartzsite transforms from a sleepy little desert town to RV Central. The population normal population of a few thousand surges to 1.5 million people as people come for the rock shows, car shows, swap meets and the RV show.
10 vault toilets (handicap accessible), dry dump station, dump station with water, water station (eight faucets), trash services, some paved / improved roads, dance floor and ramada.
This is the largest of the LTVAs at 11,400 acres in size. It’s flat landscape is sparsely vegetated with plants such as Creosote bushes, Palo Verde trees, Ironwood trees, Mesquite trees and various species of cacti.
Cultural sites, rockhounding, watchable wildlife, unique desert scenery, solitude, hiking opportunities and security.
Imperial Dam LTVA campers at Imperial Dam LTVA
RVers camping at Imperial Dam LTVA
This LTVA is located a distant 22 miles from services in Yuma, but that hasn’t kept it down. It’s thriving. There is definitely a sense of community here. Volunteers set up organized activities available such as yoga, music performances, race car meets, hiking, aerobics classes, cookouts, model airplane groups and even a lending library dubbed “Liberry”.
Grey water dump sites, two restroom facilities with outdoor showers, black water dump site with water, trash removal, ramadas and dance floor/music performance area.
The campground is approximately 3,500 acres in size, flat landscape, sparsely vegetated with plants such as Creosote bushes, Palo Verde trees, Ironwood trees, Mesquite trees and various species of cacti.
Cultural sites, rockhounding, watchable wildlife, unique desert scenery, hiking opportunities, security, fishing, boating, and swimming.
Summer LTVAs (4)
All of the summer LTVAs are located in California on the eastern side of the Sierras. They are just off of the scenic Highway 395.
Long Term Permit
Valid for the entire or any part of the season -first Saturday in March through November 1st.
Is valid for all summer LTVAs in California.
Cost $300 (about $0.86 per night)
Short Term Permit
The summer LTVAs do not offer them. You must pay by the day.
Cost $5/day camping fee.
Off-Season
The BLM’s summer LTVAs are closed between November 2nd and the first Friday in march.
————————————————-
I know you are freely crossing the USA but I am thinking of the big burro mountains you once took me to and the whole Senator saving us that night…and your roots and
EVEN in New Mexico you have to have a permit Sonny—see:
New Mexico State Park Pass
Cost: $180 for residents
$225 for non-residents
Primitive camping is free with the New Mexico State Park Annual Camping Pass which is good for one year from the date of purchase.
Website: h tt p :/ /w w w.emnrd.state.nm.u s/SPD/FeesPermits.html
Sonny? OMG…it’s great to hear from you…how are you doing, all things considered?
And as far as how I’m doing
very good.
Pull my pump out of the well
been laying my floor in and getting ready to paint the house.
I went to town today bought myself to six packs Guinness Stout and had a couple of them
I finally got around to celebrating my birthday couple days after and have been doing so since this morning.
Went hunting rabbits in the Mesquite and drove probably 30 miles of dirt road
did see one rabbit but by the time I got my rifle up to take a shot he was gone and I thought that’s good cuz that’s the only rabbit I’d seen in 30 miles probably be a tragic thing to kill the only rabbit on the desert.
The desert and I love each other but I sure hate running over Mesquite.
I do have one flat to fix and all it is is a slow leak from Mesquite thorn.
My big German Shepherd barking and driving me crazy so I’m going to call him in the house.
The Catahoula seldom barks unless a person shows up but the shepherd seems to hate coyotes.
And it is good to hear from you Gary Olson
as well he’s done so much 2 make people realize how screwed up the investigation was and how few really know the truth that went down causing the deaths of those 19 young soldiers.
I think all fireman or heroes in a way but there were a few that should never have been bosses since they’re tragic and careless action risking their Men’s Life needlessly cause those deaths.
I had a little bit of a cry today thinking about them as I wrote about them to a person in the Philippines.
They are still in our hearts and bless their efforts despite the situation that caused their deaths.
*
wtktt-
what is the closest mega burn sized grass fire or forest fire that has come to where you live such that you have been able to observe at first hand and not just on tv all the perimeters of wild fire and what did you think of how it was being conducted? was it a state run or federal run fire? I am asking you vs the others because we understand the others have been on the line so I am just trying to learn how close you or your town have been to being affected by a wild fire? That was one of the questions the locals wanted to know –
Does your town participate in going to other states like ours and make money and get free vehicles? Do they do defensible space there? have you/your area ever had to evacuate? In your area was slurry drop aftermath/consequences ever complained about or even these silly ideas and concepts of burns within a burn operations?
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 3, 2017 at 1:55 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Dumbfounded, I am… dumbfounded.
An ‘Assault Rifle’ only has one purpose.
It is specifically designed to KILL whatever is on the business side of it in an expedient and efficient manner.
It obviously has not occurred to these idiots that maybe ( just maybe ) the family members of any/all current or future wildland firefighting deaths would be horrified to know that some of the support money they might be receiving has come from the sale of deadly Assault Weapons.
But I guess that’s what can happen to your brain after you wolf down far too many 2nd amendment twinkies and chase them with a few too many gallons of red/white/blue kool-aid.
The ‘Battle Tested Equipment’ public Facebook page is here…
https://www.facebook.com/BTEUSA/
Just yesterday… they posted the following…
—————————————————————————————
We are only 22 Tickets away from the next raffle for the Granite Mountain Hotshot Tribute Rifle which we are hoping raffle off this week. Tickets for the Rifle are available for sale on our Website using this link https://www.bte-usa.com/hotshotrifle
———————————————–
Notice that the NAME they chose for their webiste page to purchase tickets is ‘hotshotrifle’.
The photos of the Assault Rifle accompanying that post show the following ‘inscriptions’…
On one side of the weapon…
HOTSHOT MULTI GMIHC0001
All ‘serial numbers’ will apparently begin with ‘GMIHC’ which, of course, stands for ‘Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew’.
On the other side of the weapon…
IN HONOR OF THE 19 HOTSHOTS LOST
LAST ALARM 6/30/2013
BTE / USA
PHOENIX / AZ
Other posts on their public Facebook page say the ‘plan’ is to sell a minimum of 200 raffle tickets for each of the first 19 Assault Rifles at a price of $20 per ticket.
So that’s $4,000 for each of the first 19 Assault Rifles.
Assault Rifle with serial number 20 ( GMIHC0020 ) is being ‘donated’ to Brendan McDonough himself, free of charge.
For Assault Rifles 21-9999 ( they plan to make at least 1,000 of them ) the retail price will be $1,395 ( One Thousand Three Hundred and Ninety-Five dollars ).
They are using PayPal to sell the raffle tickets ( and the Rifles themselves ), and here is just one public exchange about that on their public Facebook page…
——————————————————————————————
Public comment from: Michael Anthony
( Your Paypal ) Link doesn’t go to cart brother …
Public Reply from: Battle Tested Equipment
( George Urmston is President of BTE )
…unfortunately we have to use PayPal for the payment processing…. It is probably you however if you say it isn’t you then we will be forced to burn that motherfucker down and only accept cash for the raffle…. Kindly let us know….
—————————————————————-
“We will be forced to burn that motherfucker down”
Charming. ( Can you say… ‘Terroristic Threatening’ ? )
This is all beyond ‘inappropriate;. It goes all the way to ‘disgusting’.
If there’s anyone left at the ‘Wildland Firefighter Foundation’ that has a shred of integrity they should immediately issue a press release stating that they will REFUSE to accept ANY of the money from the sale of ANY of these ‘Granite Mountain Assault Rifles’.
Ditto for all of the ‘other firefighter non-profits’ ( which they fail to list ) that they say they will also be donating Assault Rifle sale money to.
I suppose a public apology from McDonough for even being stupid enough to get involved with such a hair-brained money grab would also be in order… but yea… like that’s gonna happen.
He is doing his own share of eating the twinkies and downing the kool-aid.
Notwithstanding the ongoing moronic McDonough’s actions, I think the same can easily be be said for the other camp. I guess that’s what can happen to your brain after you wolf down far too many anti-second amendment twinkies and chase them with a few too many gallons of rainbow colored kool-aid..
Assault weapons are functionally identical to many other common hunting and target rifles Assault weapons sometimes share cosmetic similarities with military weapons
Typically assault weapons fire low or intermediate power cartridges
No functional features uniquely distinguish assault weapons from their “sporting” counterparts.
Because there is no consistent definition, comparison of data from different political and legal jurisdictions is impeded and legally defining assault weapons as a class is impossible.For example, despite California’s ban of over 60 models of assault weapons, cosmetic changes in banned guns allow the legal sale of functionally identical weapons.
Please refer to the Johnson TD. Report on a Survey of the Use of “Assault Weapons” in California in 1990. Office of the Attorney General, California Department of Justice. September 26, 1991 study documenting the minuscule prevalence of assault weapons amongst crime guns.
More New York City police officers were attacked in 1992 with roach spray, wood chisels, fire extinguishers, radio amplifiers, or any other of a readily available array of household objects than were attacked with assault weapons according to: Cerar JC, Deputy Inspector and Commanding Officer, New York City Police Academy, Firearms and Tactics Section, New York City Police Department. 1992 Firearms Discharge Assault Report. New York City Police Department. 1993. p. 7.
Assault weapons are increasingly used in national and international target competitions sponsored by the International Practical Shooting Confederation, the US Practical Shooting Association, and other groups. The varied and extended courses of fire and the movement of the target or the shooter in these competitions demands the ergonomics and capacity of assault weapons, even for the highly skilled competitor.
Our Constitution’s Second Amendment grants our citizens the natural right and the common-sense duty to protect themselves, their families, their communities, and their property. The use of assault weapons by citizens in community defense can be demonstrated. During the Los Angeles riots made memorable the video footage of law-abiding shop and homeowners using guns, including assault weapons, to protect themselves, their families, and their property. Determined display and appropriate use of their protective weaponry was effective. No major American city can claim freedom from similar riots and the associated deaths and damage.
As several national studies show, including the definitive study by the National Institute of Justice and studies commissioned by gun-prohibitionist organizations, guns do protect good people; they are used defensively by law-abiding citizens at least 606,000 to 2.4 million times per year — as many as 75 lives protected by a gun for every life lost to a gun — lives saved, injuries prevented, medical costs saved, and property protected. This exceeds all estimates of criminal misuse. Using a gun to resist a crime or assault is safer than not resisting at all or resisting with means other than firearms. Guns not only repel crime, guns deter crime as is shown by numerous surveys of criminals. Arguably, when faced with mob or gang violence or multiple assailants, assault weapons represent the most appropriate means of protection.
Where the powerful images of children and innocent bystanders injured by guns are concerned, any analysis of the exaggerated extent of the problem is met with, “if it saves only one life….” Since protective uses exceed criminal misuses, a gun ban impacts more on compliant, good citizens than upon criminals. One must admit, therefore, that a good citizen’s life lost because a gun was absent is at least as valuable as a vicious predator’s life lost because a gun was present.
Regarding the the myths of police protection, it has been argued than guns are not needed by citizens because they are protected by the police and the military, including the National Guard. In view of the current crime rate, the effectiveness of that protection can be rightfully questioned. A significant, if not majority, of police activity involves “mopping up” after the crime has already occurred. Research suggests that police apprehension offers less deterrent to criminals than the threat of encountering an armed victim.
Statutes and legal precedents are clear that the police only have a responsibility to provide some general level of protection to the community at large. Police are under no obligation to protect any individual, even if in immediate danger. An oral promise to respond to an emergency call for assistance does not make the police liable to provide protection.
The withdrawal of police protection from riot-torn areas of Los Angeles and the two-day delay in putting National Guard soldiers on the streets of Los Angeles exposed the illusion of public protection. Additionally, it is disturbing to recall that armed citizens had to protect themselves from the police and US National Guard soldiers who were looting in the aftermath of Hurricane Hugo. Throughout American history we have innumerable examples of crime, terrorism, civil disorder, and natural disasters, where the police and military forces have been unable or unwilling to protect citizens, often for racist or political reasons. One can rightfully question the wisdom of reliance upon the police or military in times of trouble.
While certain state and federal gun controls may be constitutional, gun prohibitions are clearly unconstitutional. The US Supreme Court has explicitly protected an individual right to keep and bear arms, especially and explicitly protecting military-style weapons, “part of the ordinary military equipment….” Some have erroneously believed that the Second Amendment reference to “militia” designates only a right of the National Guard; however, the National Guard is only one component of the militia because: “The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age… and under 45 years of age.” — United States Code, Title 10, Section 311(a). Though the debate often focuses on the Second Amendment, current and historical legal scholarship finds support of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in the Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments and natural rights theory.
The constitutional authorities cited above, and others are quite convincing of the inherent, irrevocable right to self- protection against criminals, rioters, and tyrants. The right to keep and bear arms — and ammunition — is essential to that self-protection and has nothing to do with duck hunting or subjective assessments of “legitimate sporting uses” of guns.
In Switzerland, the army sells a variety of machine guns, submachine guns, anti-tank weapons, anti-aircraft guns, howitzers and cannons. Purchasers of these weapons require an easily obtained cantonal license, and the weapons are registered, In a nation of six million people, there are at least two million guns, including 600,00 fully automatic assault rifles, half a million pistols, and numerous machine guns. Virtually every home has a gun.
The above cited from numerous anti- and pro-gun sources.
Hmmmm? Sporting rifles built on the AR-15 and M16 platforms typically are chambered in one of two calibers with some oddball ones like the 9mm and the new one, the 300 Blackout, which is designed to be on par with the 7.62×39 mm Soviet.
The .223 Remington and the hotter military version in 5.56×45 mm NATO and the larger 7.62×51 mm NATO which is similar to the 30.06 Springfield and the civilian 308 Winchester are however, by far the most common calibers for “assault” rifles AKA…sporting rifles.
Some rifles can shoot both the military and the civilian versions of these calibers, but not all of them can without risking catastrophic failure of the firearm, so…be sure and read your owners manual before you buy a bunch of ammo and start blazing away.
The .223 and the 5.56 have muzzle velocities of more than 3000 feet per second. And the 7.62 and 308 Garand have muzzle velocities just under 3000 feet per second.
So…my point is this, both rounds are designed to make little holes going into a human body, then they create a cone shaped cavity that explodes or displaces organs with the resulting shockwave because the human body has so much water in it and then make really big holes when they exit the body.
You can say a lot about all of these calibers, but saying they are low to intermediate power cartridges…definitely isn’t one of them. The high velocity of the bullets fired from all of these cartridges is what makes them so deadly. And the maximum destruction they are designed to inflict on flesh make them unsuitable for hunting, IMHO.
And on top of that, if the shooter is using ammo with lead in them (which are outlawed by the Geneva Conventuion) that mushroom instead of the full metal jacket rounds used by the military, the resulting damage to the target will just that much worse.
Law Enforcement ((and hunters) use the lead versions for two reasons, to make sure the intended target is destroyed and because the lead bullets will explode and disintegrate upon hitting the intended target or walls etc. and stopping there instead of destroying an unintended target several blocks away.
I guess what I am trying to share with you is that I am not a gun owner…I am a gun nut. And I love the AR 15 in the M4 variation more than any other gun…it completes me. And I am convinced I need at least one for the Zombie Apocalypse that I know is coming sooner or later.
And I know all of the reasons why I shouldn’t own one, but I also know all of the reasons I why I should. I also know all of the reasons every American should have the choice of whether to own one or not.
But with all of that being said, it is impossible for me to forget that a madman legally owned one and used the weapon that was specifically designed for the military to kill and maim enemy soldiers on a battlefield as quickly and efficiently as humanly possible at a range of up to 100 yards and a lot further than that with random fire using ammunition that was specifically designed to do as much damage as possible to the human body with bullet spalling and fragmentation while creating huge cone shaped wound channels by causing devastating body cavitation using high velocity hydroponic shockwaves that instantly convert human flesh, blood, bone, muscle cartilage and organs into piles of goo at point blank range on 20 babies and 6 educators at the Sandy Hook Elementary School.
And I can’t help but feel…complicit. And I don’t think another variation of that same weapon should be used to commerative the deaths of the GMIHC.
I also don’t think any of this would be happening if Mrs. Lohman and her posse of enablers hadn’t created such a entertainment circus in the aftermath of our national tragedy.
That…I don’t feel complicit in because I have done the best I could to introduce some realism into the mix…even though my efforts haven’t had the slightest effect on even slowing down the circus train much less stopping it.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
December 4, 2017 at 12:16 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Notwithstanding the ongoing moronic McDonough’s actions…
>>
>> ( snip )
>> Typical “You can pry my cold dead hands” argument(s). See above.
>> ( snip )
So… just to be clear… I take it you APPROVE of the proceeds from the sale of ‘Assault Rifles’ going into the coffers of organizations that supply financial support to family members of deceased or injured wildland firefighters?
Without them even being made AWARE that is where some of the support money is coming from?
Let me make it easier for you…
Just check ONE of the following boxes…
[___] Hell yeah ( I approve.).
[___] Money is money. Who the fuck cares WHERE it comes from
[___] Hell no. ( I disapprove ).
[___] Hell no. ( I disapprove ).
Thanks for the clarification prompt
And thanks for the clarification.
BTW… I am a lifelong gun owner… and I am more than familiar with a lot of the research you were quoting above.
But I still think the Wildland Firefighter Foundation ( and any other wildland firefighter support organization ) should ( publicly ) REJECT any of the proceeds from this stupid “Granite Mountain Commemorative Assault Rifle” nonsense.
Yes thanks and BTW, I knew that. I wanted to make it much more clear for those uninformed, that actually drink the rainbow colored kool-aid.
You can have the last drink of kool-aid on this one.
All I wanted to know was how you actually felt about the proceeds from the sale of Assault Rifles going into the coffers of Wildland Firefighter support groups.
Okay then, I do not drink the kool-aid
Is “ breaking in on Arizona 16” the same as a mayday call?
Diane-
this sounds like yard 16- DOC lingo—
where you getting this stuff—
is this data tied to the sadly new CA fires or the YHF?
Joy,
It’s from the Yarnell Hill fire when Granite Mountain was trying to get help from air attack and were using the words “breaking in on arizona 16”
so frequency line—
I am not ignoring your question just asking folks that were on the line back channel and or people who know that lingo—
Diane,
“Arizona 16 is the Airguard frequency, an emergency frequency that all aircraft have programmed into their radios and monitor. It appears the Granite Mountain crewmember thinks he is breaking in on Arizona 16 but he is on the air-to-ground frequency”
SAIR page 27.
In my career there was never a set standard on woodland fires for communicating an emergency. The most common was “break for emergency traffic”, this would let all the firefighters putting the fire out via the radio( sorry I couldn’t resist) that something with a high priority was taking place so stay off the radio. Was that the best way, probably not and if something positive comes out of this entire tragedy maybe it will be a solid “mayday” procedure. I have been out of the business for almost four years so maybe it’s in place, if not it needs to be!
Diane,
This is from the SAIT SAIR on page 27.
““Breaking in on Arizona 16, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of the flaming front.” 9”
“9 Arizona 16 is the Airguard frequency, an emergency frequency that all aircraft have programmed into their radios and monitor. It appears the Granite Mountain crewmember thinks he is breaking in on Arizona 16 but he is on the air-to-ground frequency.”
Reply to Diane lomas post on December 6, 2017 at 1:43 pm
>> Diane lomas asked.
>>
>> Is “ breaking in on Arizona 16” the same as a mayday call?
Nope.
As RTS already pointed out… ‘Channel 16’ ( also known as the ‘Air Guard’ channel ) is labeled in most Incident Radio Communications plans as an ’emergency channel’, but just starting a radio callout with “breaking in on 16” in no way constitutes the ‘declaration’ of an actual ’emergency’.
Below is what Arizona Forestry’s own official ‘Radio Communications Guide’ has to say about using the ‘Air Guard’ channel.
NOTICE that while it DOES say that the ‘Air Guard’ channel CAN be used to declare an actual ’emergency’… it can ALSO be used for ‘other things’ such as the simple call, recall or re-direction of aircraft.
So just because a radio call is initiated on the ‘Air Guard’ channel doesn’t automatically mean the caller actually has any kind of life-threatening EMERGENCY.
The Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management
Wildland Fire Radio Communications Guide
Version: 2.0
Revised: March 20, 2017
https://dffm.az.gov/sites/default/files/documents/files/2017%20ADFFM%20Radio%20Communicatins%20Guide%20and%20Channel%20Plan.pdf
———————————————————————————-
Air Guard channel ( 16 ) usage:
Tx/Rx168.625 tx pl tone only- 110.9- there is not pl tone on the receive.
Most agencies follow the prescribed standards for Air Guard being the last channel on a group of frequencies, usually on channel 16 on each group for radios that are configured for 16 channels per group. This prescribed standard of an AIR GUARD channel was developed so that in the event of an emergency, a user could turn the radio channel knob to the last channel and place an emergency call without looking and searching for an emergency channel.
The AIR GUARD channel CAN be used for all of the following:
Air-to-Air emergency contact and coordination, Ground-to-Air emergency contact, Initial call, recall, and re-direction of aircraft when no other contact frequency is available.
————————————————————————————
So even if you make a callout on the ‘Air Guard’ channel… you would still need to DECLARE you are in a life-threateniing situation ( if that is the reason for the callout ) using either the standard MAYDAY protocol or its equivalent.
All of that being said… RTS has also already pointed out that Jesse Steed’s initial radio callout of “Breaking in on Arizona 16” was NOT actually taking place on the actual “Air Guard” channel 16.
Steed was making the call on just the regular ‘Air to Ground’ channel ( 10 ).
Steed may have ‘thought’ he had set his handheld to transmit on channel 16 before making the call… but he had NOT.
So there was no way for anyone hearing that initial callout on that Air-To Ground channel to KNOW ( for sure ) he was in any-kind of actual life threatening situation.
Steed ( and Robert Caldwell ) had NOT been trained how to properly DECLARE their own life-threatening situation on ANY radio channel.
When the ‘settlement’ of the 12 wrongful-death lawsuits was finally announced the actual ‘Settlement Agreement’ contained a provision that was added by the family members REQUIRING Arizona Forestry ( ASFD ) to consider adding the standard ‘Mayday’ call ( or its equivalent ) to their wildland fire radio training courses.
Here are some excerpts from that official ‘Settlement Agreement’…
————————————————————————————
6. State Forestry Division Practices
Plaintiffs ( family members ) provided the Arizona State Forester ( Jeff Whitney ) a list of proposed improvements in wildland fire safety. The Forester agrees that wildland fire safety is a high priority, and has already begun to implement improvements on his own.Through discussion and negotiation, Plaintiffs and the Forester compiled a list of items that the Forester agrees to do or is already doing in the spirit of improving wildland fire safety, learning from the Yarnell Hill fire and helping to make Arizona a model for wildland fire safety. Those items are attached as Appendix ‘A’ to this Settlement Agreement and Release.
APPENDIX-A – Page 1 of 4
What ASFD is REQUIRED to do:
7. ASFD will evaluate including a formalized emergency radio procedure in its Communications Plan.
————————————————————————————-
Sounds good, right?
Sounds like Arizona Forestry was (now) perfectly willing to ‘learn’ something from the needless deaths of 19 men in their own workplace, and that (finally) adding a codified ’emergency radio procedure’ to their standard communications would be a perfectly reasonable place to start… right?
Not so much.
In the very same APPENDIX-A of the ‘Settlement Agreement’, Arizona Forestry had a paragraph that says they had ALREADY considered ‘Item 7’ and they had ALREADY decided NOT to do anything about it because ( in their opinion ), adopting the standard international ‘Mayday’ emergency call procedure would just be too ( potentially ) confusing.
Here is that other paragraph further down in the same ‘Settlement Agreement’ document where they ‘blew off’ this request from the family members…
————————————————————————————
What ASFD has already done:
32. Plaintiffs had requested that ASFD discuss use of a “Mayday” button on all radios with IDIP. Unfortunately, upon further review, ASFD reports that large fire organizations ( Type 1 or 2 ) would not be subject to IDIP recommendations. They operate their own incident level dispatch. This type of system coming off a Dispatch console would only reach Initial Attack resources. Use of a “Mayday” would be on a single frequency that may not reach all personnel or would not be directed at appropriate resources thus adding more confusion rather than removing. If it generates a blanket “Mayday” across all frequencies, this can cause issues at incidents that may not be involved in the “Mayday” situation.
————————————————————————————
So that was the end of that.
There would be NO official ‘recommendation’ to finally implement any standard emergency ‘Mayday’ radio procedure ( or its equivalent ) in the world of wildland firefighting, even though 19 lives were lost at the Yarnell Hill Fire and we can HEAR them being unable to properly declare their own life threatening situation.
So… to this day… ( and even right now in California ) you have structural firefighters ( who are also trained to participate in wildland firefighting ) battling fires in the Wildland Urban Interface right alongside regular wildland firefighters…
…but while the ‘structural’ FFs are all fully trained in the use of the ‘Mayday’ radio protocol… their ‘wildland firefighter’ counterparts STILL haven’t been instructed or trained on how to issue a ‘Mayday’ call because both State and Federal Wildland Firefighting managers still all have their collective heads firmly embedded in their collective asses.
wwtktt said ” both State and Federal Wildland Firefighting managers still all have their collective heads firmly embedded in their collective asses.”
Joy’s reply: since I am always not understood—some will understand this–
go raibh maith agat, wwtktt. Tá tú an ceann is fearr.
Just a quick reminder…
“The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.”
Winston Churchill
Churchill’s refusal to give in, even when things were going badly is what I remember about him…We need a new Winston Churchill more than ever some may feel…Everywhere we turn, we see discord, uncertainty and potential disasters…Everywhere is peril, and yet we have a government riven by discord and personal ambitions…sad huh….https://youtu.be/69rDtSpshAw…yet in all this judging how is it wwtktt when I ask for a general word YARNELL tied to an entity because I need to sift through all data and not sure I can be specific …How can I even be a TOPIC in 2017 tied to a legislative level for abusing public records when I do not know the industry and kept it general and asked for all emails with certain names and as well YARNELL but not limited to just the incident 6.30.13…How can they decide to tie my name JOY A COLLURA to have their counsel try to get me for abuse when I am a tax paying civilian asking for PUBLIC RECORDS and when they hired a company to do this they get a bill for $3800 and are not pleased because they cannot ask me to pay that bill they seen…I am confused where I lay in being abusive when the entity in 2014 said a statement on Shrine Rd. and I am making and taking the time to fact check that data.
Joy,
Can you tell us what the statement about shrine rd was?
No.
Can you tell me firstly Diane when I heard something and I want to fact check it first before placing it public with statement and person who said it…do YOU think I would place it out on IM where I know obviously what’s going on here…but heck I will start December off by saying Happy Birthday to all December borns…and in loving memory happy bday Deford and Zup-
Please tell me what is, “obviously what’s going on here” because I am dazed and confused.
I hate to engage because next step is Gary will be working on a MOAP but my reply—-
“Can’t do it, I’m way too toxic. I have been too aggressive on this site to ever be considered a reasonable, logical, prudent, and honest broker of facts who can work within the system for reasonable changes.
I have made way too many enemies. Based on my experience, you can either be an astute and politically savvy operator who can work with the system, or you can be a caustic bomb thrower who uses hyperbole and “colorful” language to make certain you get your point across, but…you can’t be both.”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/#comment-472828
oh yeah forgot the “source” to my reply
FEBRUARY 5, 2017 AT 12:17 PM was said on here—
This is the ‘issue’ that still includes the fact that there is clear evidence of a potential ‘coverup’ on the part of Arizona Forestry ( and US Forestry ) in the aftermath of the Yarnell tragedy, the details of which can ONLY be fully known if/when this case is ALLOWED to PROCEED.
I can state THIS…why stop with that entity…look all over to make a proper assessment—
Who would be stupid enough to write something like this nonsense on a public blog?
Wait…oh no. : (
Excellent and memorable Winston Churchill quote. Thanks for sharing.
NEWS FLASH…DATELINE UPDATE….OLYMPIA, WA.
Well…for the “whatever it is worth” category, the movie “Only the Brave”, or as I like to put it, “Only the Dumber Than a Bad O’ Hammers”, and in Eric Marsh’s case, “Shit For Brains” for killing his crew, just left the theater here in rainy Olympia, Washington, ground zero for the nations only Rain Forest…I think.
Whoops, forgot about southeast Alaska, how could I? It had a really long run here, or at least a lot longer run than I expected given the reports from WTKTT that the movie wasn’t doing well at the box office. A lot of other movies have come and gone in that same time period. So…
Oh…and one more thing. In reference to my second favorite bone to chew on.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/lowest-income-americans-bigger-hit-161206148.html
What about the Unaffordable Careless Act ?
https://www.theburningplatform.com/2013/11/12/unaffordable-careless-act/
Well, the experts say…that even if they put $50.00 (for example) in the pockets of the dim witted angry old blue collar uneducated (my degree is in Police Science which is only one step up from uneducated) white men (people like me) they are going to take $200.00 out of their other pocket.
Don’t get me wrong…I am on your side. You know my health insurance is part of my retirement package (I have a so-called Cadillac Plan, thank you American Taxpayers) and since I make more than $75,000.00, my taxes are going to go way down…and stay down.
The 1.5 trillion that is going to be added to the deficit, I will never have to pay back…so it is all good. And since our economy is humming along with near full employment and Goldman Sachs is foreseeing a 4 per cent growth next year, a stimulus package for the wealthiest among us and corporate America is unnecessary and will never generate enough growth in the GDP to outpace the hole this plan is going to blow in the federal budget.
But…I’m with you brother and the man representing us in the White House, because I am like you…Conservative, Christian, White, Old, Angry, and in the upper tier of those who a lot of people consider well off, although I am like everyone else and I spend it as fast as I get it like a drunken sailor.
God Bless America! You and me…we are on top of the heap and **** everyone else…right? And as far as those who get kicked off their health insurance and have to start going back to the emergency rooms to be treated where it costs several times what it would cost to treat them in their primary care physicians office…insurance rates will continue to skyrocket, but we can afford it, because our insurance is underwritten by Uncle Sugar by about 75%..
Is this a great country or else…at least for you and me! What Would Jesus Do who gives a ****, we got ours?
Matthew 25:40 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
New Living Translation
“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’
English Standard Version
And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Berean Study Bible
And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
Berean Literal Bible
And the King answering, will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did it to Me.’
New American Standard Bible
“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
King James Bible
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
“And the King will answer them, I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
International Standard Version
The king will answer them, ‘I tell all of you with certainty, since you did it for one of the least important of these brothers of mine, you did it for me.’
NET Bible
And the king will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’
New Heart English Bible
“The King will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And The King answers and says to them, ‘Amen, I say to you, as much as you have done to one of these my little brothers, you have done that to me.’
GOD’S WORD® Translation
“The king will answer them, ‘I can guarantee this truth: Whatever you did for one of my brothers or sisters, no matter how unimportant [they seemed], you did for me.’
New American Standard 1977
“And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
Jubilee Bible 2000
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brothers, ye have done it unto me.
King James 2000 Bible
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Since you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me.
American King James Version
And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me.
American Standard Version
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
Darby Bible Translation
And the King answering shall say to them, Verily, I say to you, Inasmuch as ye have done it to one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it to me.
English Revised Version
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.
Webster’s Bible Translation
And the king will answer and say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye have done it to one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it to me.
Weymouth New Testament
“But the King will answer them, “‘In solemn truth I tell you that in so far as you rendered such services to one of the humblest of these my brethren, you rendered them to myself.’
World English Bible
“The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Young’s Literal Translation
And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren — the least — to me ye did it.
And I am going to take a shot in the dark here and assume that “theburningplatform.com is on par as getting your information from Alex Jones is?.
But once again…don’t get me wrong…I think Mr. Jones makes a lot of really valid points for people like you and me…brother.
I know God loves you and me more than most other people because we are on Top O’ The Heap, you know…because we are Conservative, Christian, White, U.S. Citizens and have guaranteed health insurance we get for a fraction of the cost of the actual plan that all other retirees would have to pay.
I like being me…and being you wouldn’t be bad either. We won the Rat Race! It was touch and go for both of us a few times….maybe more than a few times for me, ROTFL, but I did make it.
Now I get sit in my recliner and bitch (non gender specific).
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=granitemountain.htm
Only The Brave
Domestic Total as of Nov. 26, 2017: $17,856,353
Distributor: Sony / Columbia Release Date: October 20, 2017
Genre: Action Runtime: 2 hrs. 13 min.
MPAA Rating: PG-13 Production Budget: $38 million
Total Lifetime Grosses
Domestic: $17,856,353 83.8%
+ Foreign: $3,462,483 16.2%
= Worldwide: $21,318,836
Oct 20–22 5 $6,002,665 – 2,577 – $2,329 $6,002,665 1
Oct 27–29 7 $3,502,095 -41.7% 2,577 – $1,359 $11,992,152 2
Nov 3–5 9 $1,920,075 -45.2% 2,073 -504 $926 $15,300,542 3
Nov 10–12 12 $936,889 -51.2% 1,207 -866 $776 $17,060,805 4
Nov 17–19 18 $242,406 -74.1% 363 -844 $668 $17,655,285 5
Nov 24–26 31 $95,814 -60.5% 134 -229 $715 $17,856,353 6
Widest Release: 2,577 theaters
In Release: 38 days / 5.4 weeks
The Players
Director: Joseph Kosinski
Actors: Josh Brolin
Miles Teller
Jennifer Connelly
Jeff Bridges
Taylor Kitsch
James Badge Dale
Genres
Genre Rank
Fire / Firefighter 10
Charts
Chart Rank
All Time Domestic 3,504
Top Movies in the Past 365 Days 101
Opening Weeks 2,739
Worst Openings – Saturated 74
Opening Weekends 2,804
Smallest Drops, 2,500+ theaters (Saturation) 582
Smallest Drops, 2,000+ theaters (Very Wide) 853
Smallest Drops, All Wide Releases 2,112
Charts (Premier Pass Users Only) Rank
Opening Weeks Adjusted 3,668
Worst Openings – Saturated Adjusted 45
Worst Openings – Very Wide Adjusted 138
Opening Weekends Adjusted 3,777
wow my first non Yoda comment Gary above
a first for everything
may be a shocking week of happy surprises if I can pull that off—what else is in store?
Also update on Weavers in order for a surviving spouse or family member to receive Federal Benefits they must sign that they will not sue the government to collect the benefits. All work related Fatalities.
Here’s an interesting story about Tom Ashcraft and his wife doing good things in honor of his GMHS son Andrew Ashcraft and their efforts to Firewise properties in Prescott.
However, the article erroneously gives the GMHS credit for something they did before the 2002 Indians Fire, as “Hotshots” before they were a certified Type 1 HS Crew in 2009..
“From tragedy comes a place to start healing. Project Andrew, Healing Haven spring up in Prescott neighborhood”
https://www.dcourier.com/news/2017/nov/20/tragedy-comes-place-start-healing/
Andrew Ashcraft didn’t join the GMIHS until 2011…. so he *may* have had something to do with whatever ‘assistance’ was provided building the pond… but nothing to do with the 2002 Indian Fire in that area.
In 2002, Andrew Ashcraft was still just a ‘junior’ in high school.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Obituary for Andrew Sterling Ashcraft
Published:: September 11, 2013 6:02 a.m
https://www.dcourier.com/news/2013/sep/11/obituary-andrew-sterling-ashcraft/
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2017/11/17/former-nau-professor-melissa-ann-santana-accused-stalking-members-hotshot-fire-crews/874467001/
Are there any developments with Fred’s lawsuit?
It’s in the Summary for Judgement phase waiting for the District Court Judge ruling
Thank you RTS
Case 3:17-cr-08284-GMS Document 1 Filed 10/28/17 Page 1 of 39
US District Court District of of Arizona
https://arizonadailyindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/show_temp.pdf
Interesting …
Interesting is one word for it, but it wouldn’t be my first choice, I don’t think I could make up a story that crazy?
I mean c’mon….Special Agent Sophia Fong gives the entire story line a whole new angle. Because believe me…she is not your average USFS Special Agent and makes the entire story just a whole lot more…interesting. I would like to meet her, she took that entire case to the whole next level…very impressive!
Mrs. Santana may have just a touch of the crazy, but I’m not a medical professional.. so…
On another note (& at the tremendous risk of glossing over the wack-job stalker story) I couldn’t help but lmao at another AZ local news story:
Headline:
“Prescott Valley PD looking for chief’s gun after he left it in bathroom”
Really?
The PD is now turning to the public to help find it…didn’t realize it was missing for 4 days…
…my random low-value contribution for the day…
Woodsman,
Give yourself more credit. Hopefully, helping out here with a link to the subject of PVPD incompetence. for those that may be too lazy or whatever to GTS,.
https://www.dcourier.com/news/2017/nov/20/pvpd-chief-leaves-his-gun-restroom-search-continue/
Now THAT is another another funny story. I don’t know why so many people dis this blog, we exchange all kinds of interesting stories and facts here…bunch of haters.
Well….as someone who carried a full size Sig Sauer handgun (progression…P226 9mm, P229 .40, P228 9mm and last but not least, a P239 .40, plus several different variations of a Smith & Wesson Model 36 ending with an Airweight in an ankle holster, plus two full extra magazines and a pair of handcuffs and if you know guns, you know that every chance I got as the years went by, I got a smaller and lighter one) for 18 years and an even heavier Smith and Wesson 66 revolver for four years before that in a side holster.
I can tell you first hand that managing those heavy beasts can be a real problem when nature calls if you are not at the office. So…I can at least empathize with the Chief even while I am smiling. : )
And FYI….not dropping any of that stuff on a dirty floor and causing an accidental discharge (AD) was always a challenge, so…please be kind. And then putting it all back together without an AD without leaving any of it behind was another challenge.
Now….here is another funny story. There once was this little guy who worked for USDI OIG and he was using a public toilet. One day the guy in the stall next to him said, “courtesy flush”.
The little agent didn’t react and so the guy then yelled, “Courtesy Flush”, The little agent still didn’t react because he wasn’t sure what was going on and so the guy banged his fist on the side of the stall and screamed, “COURTESY FLUSH ASS HOLE!” The agent still didn’t react…so the guy climbed up on his toilet seat and leaned over the top of the stall to yell at him again.
The only thing was, that little agent was sitting there holding this really big black gun in his hands and he instinctively pointed it at the man in reaction and then the man suddenly forgot all about the courtesy flush and couldn’t get out of that bathroom fast enough!
Now forgetting about your duty weapon for four days, that’s another whole different issue. Although I had to go retrieve a guy’s gun once from a motel after he realized he didn’t have it after he got home…about 400 miles away.
I also know of this other agent who left his gun in a booth at an adult theater one day. But everything turned out okay in the end…his gun was recovered after it was used in a robbery because the prostitute the agent had been with had found it after he left and sold it for drug money.
He was a BLM Special Agent for a short time…but he had been hired from the DEA, so I always thought of that one as a reflection on the DEA. And it was just about what I would expect from the majority of DEA agents I worked with over the 22 years Those cowboys ride hard and play even harder, kind of like the Secret Service does…or did..
One that was not funny was the young woman who was shot and killed a couple of years ago on that pier in San Francisco by an Undocumented Alien (UDA). The gun that was used to kill her had been assigned to a BLM Special Agent who had left it in his personal car that day and the UDA had broken a window to steal whatever was inside it.
I was really happy to ditch all of the big Sigs when I retired and was able to switch to baby Sigs (P239’s 9mm). Some people think carrying a gun is a good idea, but very few people realize just how much trouble and responsibility comes with that privilege until they try it, especially if you will get in deep trouble IF you don’t have it with you.
There are a lot of things that can get an agents badge and credentials pulled, and then he or she is fired. And then no pension Joy likes to bitch about us getting.
Lots of people are jealous of a federal pension….until they find out what they have to do get one like Fred, Bob and I earned. And then they go and find something else they would rather do. And if you are lucky….or good, or better yet…lucky and good, you make it to the finish line and then yes, life is pretty sweet…thank you taxpayer!
I saw your random low-value contribution Woodsman….and raised you.
Oh…and one more thing. I hope you, my closest friends and confidants have a very Happy Thanksgiving! I for one, am happy to have this blog to vent on.
And I am especially thankful I am old, angry, Christian, male, white of Scandinavian and northern Germanic descent, my health care is tied to my retirement package and NOT Obama Care because my taxes are going way down if the Republicans have their way very soon.
And most importantly…. since I make more than $75,000.00 per year, those taxes aren’t going to go way back up in a few years like they will for my people…the white blue collar workers from Red States (Trump voters) who are very soon going to get a really good fuckin’ from the Pied Piper (Putin’s Bitch, non gender specific) they are following off the cliff like lemmings.
And since I will be dead when the huge bill comes due in terms of our national deficit….I will never have to pay any of that money back.
Like, I said way back when on this blog, I am really scoring since Putin’s Bitch got elected! Thank you….angry, white, blue collar, low wage, Christian workers of this country.
I owe you more than one, but I will NEVER have to pay you, Hee, hee, LOL, ROTFL laughing my ass off!
You people lose…you love your state health exchanges, but you hate Obama Care…stupid people! You are going to lose it all!
God Bless America!
All that is seriously awesome although I can’t find anything that convinces me that it’s OK for an Leo to misplace his service weapon for 4 days. Get off the thin blue line bullshit. You & I both know you’re way better than that.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Love,
Woodsman
That confirms at least ONE person who goes by the moniker of The Woodsman (as opposed to A woodsman) doesn’t read my meandering, random, spontaneous, convoluted, musings masquerading as posts on this blog.
I said, “Now forgetting about your duty weapon for four days, that’s another whole different issue.” So….as you see, I did not give that idiot a pass. I always liked the scary bed time stories they told us at the academies and at our yearly in-service training refresher.
Why…I still remember this one about this LE from a small town who went to draw his service weapon on his Big Day when his fate selected his number at random and it wouldn’t come out of his holster and he was immediately shot dead by the bad guy.
When they did the post mortem, they discovered his gun COULDN’T be removed from his holster. they estimated it had been in the same holster without ever being removed for ANY reason for more than 20 years and because of moisture, accumulated material and decay, the gun and holster had essentially become fused as one.
At least I had to qualify twice a year (and was encouraged to shoot in between with lots of free ammo) with my primary hand gun, backup, shotgun and AR-15 (or whatever I was using at the time, sometimes it was a full auto Sig rifle or MP5 sub-machine gun, thanks again to you taxpayers for all the expensive ammo you bought me since we had to qualify with bullets than cost more than one dollar each, no seconds allowed for quals).
Oh…and one more thing. For those of you who are old enough to remember that warm shower you got in 1986 from trickle down economics? That was really someone pissing on you head and the piss trickled down over your head and torso.
And furthermore, you are in luck, you are just about to get another warm shower. I hope you enjoy it because I will be one of the chosen few will be pissing on your head while I ask, “Is the water warm enough for you!” ROTFL
My apologies for my lack of understanding your post. As you were, Big Buddy.
Hugs,
Woodsman
(Hey, it’s thanksgiving, I’m feeling sentimental)
PS: free boolits rule!
Gary Olson says
NOVEMBER 22, 2017 AT 4:53 PM
Now THAT is another another funny story. I don’t know why so many people dis this blog, we exchange all kinds of interesting stories and facts here…bunch of haters.
Well….as someone who carried a full size Sig Sauer handgun (progression…P226 9mm, P229 .40, P228 9mm and last but not least, a P239 .40,
———and in another area I scrolled ———–
At least I had to qualify twice a year (and was encouraged to shoot in between with lots of free ammo) with my primary hand gun, backup, shotgun and AR-15 (or whatever I was using at the time, sometimes it was a full auto Sig rifle or MP5 sub-machine gun
JOY’S REPLY:
West German stamped slide Sigs are still head and shoulders above the poor quality milled slide Sigs that they make today so be glad you are retired on your pension-
The P225 grip is still one of the best ergonomically produced pistols ever.
The AR-15 chambered in 6.5Grendel is the way to go nowadays and out-performs 5.56 and even the .308 past 400 yards.
You talk guns and I was like I gotta come one here and say Happy Thanksgiving there Gary—
I am going to have to engrave Gary on my pistol…to remember this moment…too bad I only have a pot metal Gennings nowadays— and your better than that to put it on my lousy gun like that— your name belongs on something alot better like a Lorcin or a Jiminez—
oh and 1 more area— gotta crash—zzzzz
I just got home and I thought hmmm if I was Gary and I had to choose between FREEDOM OF SPEECH OR HIS GUN…I bet Gary would choose his gun and then he would say whatever the hell he wanted BECAUSE HE HAD THAT GUN
I had a lovely time with someone Sonny grew up knowing and then my brother and his family –
but he did 
long Holiday drive and wanna sleep but couldn’t when I heard you talk guns…but then I bet you are wishing that DARN CAVE MAN BACK IN THE DAY never taught us ladies to speak…
Sometimes we look for inspiration in the wrong places. In my opinion it’s not just the obvious like the genius in the world like Einstein — take Yoda Gary—-
“Do or do not. There is no try.” said Yoda
So true. You can’t ‘try’ to do something. Try and pick up a pen now. Go on. Try to do it.
You can’t.
We can only take action when we commit to ‘doing’. Trying simply does not exist.
—————————————————-
Gary Olson says
NOVEMBER 22, 2017 AT 4:53 PM
Now THAT is another another funny story. I don’t know why so many people dis this blog, we exchange all kinds of interesting stories and facts here…bunch of haters.
There are a lot of things that can get an agents badge and credentials pulled, and then he or she is fired. And then no pension Joy likes to bitch about us getting.
JOY’s REPLY:
this blog is dissed because it has so many areas where people just be who they were born to be and are individuals expressing themselves some uniformed…some not so much…then me YODA imitator…and then there is AI…I reckon that is why but mainly because from the start BEHIND THE SCENES IF YOU GET FOIAS AND PUBLIC RECORDS then John D and RTS have been the focus in many of emails that I read and those 2 asked the wrong or depends who is looking because I DO FEEL SOME QUESTIONS are crucial and not wrong but RIGHT….
Thank you for these 2 men for asking the questions—I did not feel so alone when I began to too—
——-
I have no problem on pensions—some are WELL EARNED AND DESERVED yet there are some that silver spooned through the system in my humble opinion and their noses are quite the brown hue as they retired— “just saying”
Joy,
I still own a couple or three or maybe four Sigd that are stamped “Made in West Germany”
Other than that…I don’t know what to say other than you are one of a kind and a reel keeper even if you are to hardheaded to give up your FOIAS, I guess if I went to that much time, trouble and expense, I wouldn’t give them up either.
And yes…I remember Stella.
it has nothing to do with time and monies but who is on the other end that I am reading about and after ONE comment on HERE getting me into a court setting—I just want to avoid there little good old boy room again…so it is avoid-ability…I see now how I can be treated locally…over non-sense.
when I dig…I dig…and well don’t want my hole to be mistaken by them for something else
Trivia—- First women Hot Shot 1976 Los Padres Hot Shot Crew.
She also became the first Women Smoke Jumper in 1981.
Woops Her Name Was Deanne Shulm.
Do you know which base, how long she jumped for and what she did after that?
I guess what I am asking is do you know if she was a lifer and was able to leverage that experience into moving up, or over, or whatever? Or maybe that wasn’t her plan or interest?
Yes But don’t have the Info looking for it.
Hope you’re well, Bob.
Deanne Shulman apparently was the first female hotshot & first female jumper out of McCall. According to my cursory glance, it wasn’t without challenges. She retired in 2011 from the USFS International Forestry Program. So to answer old Gary’s question: Lifer.
There may have been a female hs on Mormon Lake before Ms. Shulman. I suppose I should leave the research on this to former hs. Don’t want to sell someone short. As you were…
I was trying to find the rest of her positions thanks for what you got. Haven’t herd of the Mormon Lake HS.
The Sawtooth HS hired their first Women in the early 80s I am thinking 82 or 83.
Women were going out on FS Regular crews from severial different work positions or JOBS as early as 1973. I had women on My Brush Crew and a Eng. in 1974 on the Six Rivers Mad River Dist. (I was the Asst Dist FMO) back then..
No…there wasn’t ANY woman on ANY Coconino Hotshot Crew until I hired the first one in 1980 on the Happy Jack Hotshots (don’t you people ever READ my long boring posts?) as I wrote about down below.
And then as far as I know, there hasn’t been a woman on any Coconino Hotshot Crew since then either. The Coconino used to be ground zero for male domination…and probably still is today.
California was ground zero for the Judicial consent decree that forever changed the life of everyone male in the USFS FIRE organization. Although Ms. Shulman may have been hired before that consent decree (and although it only officially applied to California, and the Pacific Islands which is in the 9th Judicial District the entire USFS followed it so they didn’t get sued in every judicial district in the U.S., and so she would have gotten on the LP Hotshots and then in McCall the hard way, without a court order.
I’m glad to hear she was able to leverage that experience into some long term benefit because there are so many who (the overwhelming vast majority) get run through the meat grinder and never get anything more than a temporary paycheck and some memories out of it.
Thanks Woodsman!
You may want to check with Ms. Gloria Eighmey as she was apparently (according to her) a member of Mormon Lake in 1976. But what the the fuck do I know? Her nickname was “Glo.”
Love,
Woodsman
Of course it’s certainty possible that “Glo” was lying so, like I said, what the fuck do I know?
Love,
Woodsman
http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/imwtk.htm
Read it & weep, mofocka!
Wait, what?
Love,
Woodsman
Well…in this particular case, I do believe you are in error. I just happen to be very familiar with the Mormon Lake Hotshots from 1976 and I don’t know of a woman who was on that crew, or any other Coconino Hotshot Crew prior to 1980, when I hired the first one.
And that fact is printed in big letters on the Certificate of Achievement hanging on my “I Love Me Wall” that came with the 500 bucks for receiving the Forest and then one of the Regional Civil Rights Awards for breaking that glass ceiling for women in 1980..
That just happened to be the year the Mormon Lake and the Happy Jack Hotshots met at the crossroads of history on the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976, which happened in early July.
Mormon Lake is only 12 miles from Happy Jack and we frequently interacted together, drinking at the lodge even if nothing else.
After that incident, they took both crews out of rotation for the rest of the fire season and neither crew ever went on another fire that year and really ceased to exist.
Here is the crew photo from that year.
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr10/hist_photo7.jpg
Now, there may have been others who were on the crew who aren’t in that photo, but early July is pretty early in the fire season and neither crew was hiring after that since we were taken out of rotation and never put back in. And it cost us a lot of money in lost revenue.
Now….assuming Glo was not lying, there may be an explanation.
1. As you know, the stories told by wildland firefighters get better every time they tell them. and mine are no exception. And Glo may be the same and just a little fluffing here and there is perfectly acceptable because everyone enjoys a good fire story about the last fire, the next fire or some other fire…right?
2. As you might know, hotshot crews typically go out with fill-ins because someone quit, or got hurt, or is in jail. So…Glo may have been on an engine and filled in and maybe even more than once?
But FYI….1976 was the year Bill Buck tricked personnel into sending out the, “So You Want To Be a Hotshot Letter” which you can find an original copy that I received here,
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved3.html
Which really scared me and made me look for another job but I couldn’t find one because I didn’t think I could handle being a hotshot even though it was my second season.
If you knew Bill Buck, or even if you didn’t, you know that letter was specifically written to scare off any women who wanted to be Coconino Hotshot and Bill Buck was still riding high at the apex of his career as the most famous or infamous and influential Type I Incident Commander in the nation.
After he got in trouble for sending that letter out, he tried a new approach. In addition to passing the step test and running the 1.5 mile run in less than 11 minutes, even though the manual said we could have a couple of more minutes as adjusted for altitude because we were well over 7000 feet in elevation, he added a new requirement to be a Coconino Hotshot.
The new requirement mandated that all Coconino Hotshots run/walk 2 miles with a 60 pound sack of cement strapped on a wooden military ammunition pack frame with thin cotton straps.
I have never personally met a woman who could have passed that test to this very day. I know they are out there, but I have never met one including all of the women hotshots I worked with over the years. I don’t think Shawna Legarza could have passed that test because the cement weighed almost as much as she did when she was a shot. And frankly, she was in AWESOME shape and trained hard, she was just really little.
For one thing, that is about half the body weight of your average woman firefighter who can still do the other stuff like the step test and the run.
So….now that I think about it some more, I have reached a different conclusion. Glo was bullshitting you.
Which is okay, maybe the gig is either getting her a lot of free shots or laid, or both? Were you suitably impressed enough by her bullshit story to do both?
But like you said, what the fuck do I know? I was just the youngest hotshot crew boss in the history of hotshot crews on a Mighty Coconino Hotshot crew for 6 years, three of those as the Crew Boss and then started a new hotshot crew from scratch and ran it for another 4 years while I was a collateral District AFMO, after which time I became the Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher and an Interagency Fire Center Coordinator while traveling from the Brooks Range in Alaska to east coast to still fight fire with a telephone and Data General computer (just about the first computer on the market), and at one time knew everybody who was anybody in Region 3 FIRE and still do for the most part.
My FIRE bona fides and credentials are NOT to be questioned or challenged by Glo or anyone else!
Or are you just fuckin’ with me because my initials are Glo….Gary Lee Olson?
RTS and I have both been communicating in the back channel about just how much bullshit and incorrect information there is out there in the haphazard fire history bullshit floating around. I still think Glo is pulling somebody’s leg…or whatever?
I think Glo must of had a connection (or she isn’t a bullshitter, she is a liar)…but a bona fide Coconino Hotshot in 1976, she was NOT!
I’m afraid you are going to have to produce something more than a blog post that was written by Glo herself to convince me.
I don’t actually have a dog in this fight, after all, it’s not like I am trying to claim the title of being the first woman hotshot on the Coke.
After all, the Coconino National Forest Office of Personnel Management which hired and manged the personnel files of the Mormon Lake Hotshots gave me the award for hiring the first woman in 1980 and they aren’t coming to take that off my “I Love Me Wall” anyway and the money is long gone. Oh…and THEY filled out the award language, I didn’t write it on a blog myself.
Have you ever heard of the concept of “Stolen Honor”, I guess Navy SEALS aren’t the only victims.
Oh…the time for the pack test was under 22 minutes. The guys who took it seriously came in with blood running down their backs from the straps cutting into their shoulders and the pack board banging and rubbing on their back as they ran for time.
We had guys who could do it around 12 minutes or less. Me….I paced myself and did it just under 22 minutes because I was saving myself for the Big One.
And, we ran uphill one way on the same narrow highway used by logging trucks and old people in big RV’s. It was uphill one way and down hill the other, both of which were more challenging that a flat track would have been.
Coming down, if you weren’t careful, that pack would send you face first into the pavement and really beat our knees up. Uphill was actually easier on the body.
Personnel actually banned that test three years later because no woman could pass it and they knew that was why Buck initiated it. I was never so happy in my life when that test went away.
Okay just one more piece of dirty laundry. Tony Czak killed himself and the others because he was doing everything he could to become the next Bill Buck Clone because Van Bateman had moved up from Flagstaff Hotshot Crew Boss to be Buck’s Fores AFMO and the suck up clone job was wide open.
Czak had the best shot at getting the job because he had been the top squad boss under Bateman and was already certified to be the Buck/Bateman Clone Trainee.
Tony Czak did NOT ever hire a woman to be on the Mormon Lake Hotshots, he was as old school red neck as they came. And after he was dead, the crew wasn’t really ever put back together and like I said, didn’t go on any more fires for the year and was not rebuilt until the next year when the next Certified Buck/Bateman Clone who had been the new top squad boss on the Flagstaff Hotshots took over the crew and rebuilt it with a lot of ex Flag Hotshots and some Happy Jack Hotshots because we were already gone to Santa Fe.
His name is Milford Suida. Milford didn’t hire ANY women either. Milford was the Mormon Lake Crew Boss for many hears after that until I think he became the Mormon Lake AFMO.
Like I said before, the Flagstaff Hotshots were Bill Buck’s Gladiator School for crew bosses on the Coconino. I was the exception because my FMO wanted HIS boy in the job, NOT Buck’s boy.
Like I said before, we were TRIBAL…and didn’t want no Flagstaff Hotshot fuckin’ around in OUR house.
Historical Trivia…the first female hotshot on the Coconino according to the Coconino National Forest Personnel Office was/is named Mary.
She married Russell Copp who was a long time squad boss on….wait for it…the Mormon Lake Hotshots.
The last time I talked to Rus was shortly before I retired in 2006.
You know me…I hate to rub it in when I am right. But that crew photo either shows everyone on the Mormon Lake Hotshots of 1976 or lists those not shown in the photo and I do not see Glo’s photo or name listed anywhere.
And like I already said, that crew was shattered on the Battlement Creek Fire in early July and MAYBE went to some small on district fires although we didn’t because the monsoon and rainy season had begun by the time we got home.
We really got fucked because Czak was so fucking stupid. Our crew was really okay, we didn’t think (or care) that much about what happened to Mormon Lake because they ordered us to never talk about it, think about it, or mention it…so we didn’t.
They never told us they took us out of rotation, we just never went to another fire. Fuckin’ Asshole Fire Gods!
Yep. You schooled me & you should because I’ve never served on a hotshot crew. I actually mean it when I say ‘what the fuck do I know?’
Even though I’m not arrogant enough to question your street creds in the world of hotshots, from here on out, when I feel like you need to get your big ass up & out of that recliner & get the blood flowing again, I’m going to come on here & call into question your bonafides in the world of hotshots. Deal? Good.
I agree that there is a lot of ‘misremembered’ erroneous, mistaken, AND/OR outright fraudulent claims on the internet & in life. Now this is a cheap-shot but you know low-hanging fruit is the easiest for a lazy man…and besides, I’ve delivered to RTS a disproportionately high number of cheap shots while treating you better. Time to level it out:
You said you had some crew members that passed that 2 mile 60lb walk/run uphill one way, downhill the other, in 12 minutes or less. (The description of blood on their backs from the straps cutting in was a particularly nice touch.)
I call B U L L S H I T right here, right now. There is no fucking way they ran a 6 minute mile or less with a 60 lb sack of concrete on their back in an old pack frame at 7000′ elevation. Unless you left out the part where it wasn’t actually 2 miles & they were on skateboards with a towli ne attached to a 68′ Dodge pickup.
Colorful embellishment indeed. I caught this fish one time & I’d love to tell the story about it…
Oh, and it’s Stolen Valor. It’s most common in the special forces arena. I can’t see how people can be so stupid. They just have to go for broke & claim they were an enlisted officer scout sniper recon pararescue ranger seal…secret slot only the secdef knows about. If you get really bored YouTube the hell out of it. Iove the videos of our honorable servicemembers policing their own. If you’re going to wear the uniform fraudulently at least research proper insignia. Lmao!!!
And right about now you’re fairly pissed…’how dare that little bassturd question me about what we did or didn’t do back in the day!’ I’m calling 100% BULLSHIT on the time of 12 minutes or less. I have no doubt most or all of your crew could accomplish that test in 22 minutes… & some probably did bleed from the straps rubbing through with that shitty pack. That test would be brutal at an 11 min/mile pace. Hey, at least you were allowed to run. I wish I could run my work capacity test. Our required rate to meet or beat is a 15 min/mile pace for 3 miles with super high-speed low-drag state-of-the-art 45lb weight vest.
Anyone still paying attention to this out in cyberland from the non-fire circles can try it out. Disclaimer: you’re on your own, seek medical advice before attempting, etc.
Go to a track at your nearest school. Walk 4 1/4 mile laps in under 15 minutes. One foot must be in contact with the ground at all times…you can’t run or shuffle or skip…walking only. Brisk pace, ain’t it? Now strap on 45 lbs & do 12 laps. Same rules. No running. Do it in 45 minutes or less. This is current standard for actual wildland firefighters in the US. Some Canadian provinces have a different test which includes what I’m calling ‘the knee wrecker.’
Like I said, if you do this, you’re on your own. Seek medical advice etc.
And back to GLO (haha!), its the time you claim, man. My wife held a highschool record for the mile at 5:01 for over a decade. Full-ride track scholarship to a major university. Ran marathons for fun. Qualified for New York & Boston. 6 minute mile with no weight is a great time in an all out run. 2 back to back in 12 is fantastic. 60 lbs? No fucking way.
The Woodsman
On second thought, GLO, I’m going to rescind that…the most brutal part of that test is the prehistoric pack you had to use. If allowed to run I could pass that without too much trouble & I’m knocking on 50. Hell, it’s only 15 more lbs & back in the day we used to WALK 36 min 3 milers…& that was in boots, jeans, & a bladder bag! Now I’m not saying I would be happy about but I could get it done.
THE Woodsman
PS: how do you like your T-,day gift?
I’m lovin’ it because most people just ignore me until I go away so any attention is good attention…thank you.
And I’m glad you recalibrated those pack test times because that wasn’t intended to be fluff, that is the way I remember it, but of course I have often admitted that memory was the SECOND thing for me to lose.
Now…I will clarify the “blood running down their backs” because that was fluffed a little bit. The “runners” on our crew really prided themselves on their running and so they ran for “time” every time they ran…period.
Whereas I always paced myself because even though I didn’t look like I was in very good shape, I was like a coiled steel spring ready to leap into action any time the Big One (big campaign fire) was in front of us. And if I was a true bullshitter, I would have told you I ran it around 12 minutes.
Now…back to the blood. The runners would always run with their shirts off and that included the pack tests, I never ask why they did that, maybe that extra weight slowed them down?
And you are right about the shitty pack, but that was the only thing laying around the shop that looked like a pack that we could tape a bag of cement on with “hundred mile an hour tape.” The engine crews had those surplus pack boards to carry heavy hose rolls up or down the mountain when building their extended hose lays. The other crews might have had something better?
And if WTKTT goes back to one other time I bragged about this test, you will see that I clarified the fact that we weren’t completely stupid because we did tape some cloth using the same tape (military grade duct tape) to those narrow cotton straps, but they were still narrow and still not padded very well.
So…the “blood” was the equivalent of having a blister on a blister on a blister, and you know those bleed, but it is “ runny” blood.
So…now that we have all of the back story out of the way and the scene set, here is the real complete story without any fluff.
Those crazy runners, who were not big guys, you know runners are usually kind of scrawny with very little or no body fat. And they were always competing against each other for the fastest times with their shirts off.
So when they came back in over the finish line where the stop watch was, they hadn’t done any walking or jogging, they did the whole test running.
And the combination of those narrow straps, and the wooden unpadded sides and bottom of that ammunition pack board without a waistbelt rubbing and banging, rubbing and banging, rubbing and banging as they ran hard for time with their shirts off full of adrenaline pumped up to beat the stop watch and the others, it resulted in some serious “wear” marks on their shoulders and backs because they either didn’t notice or care that was happening.
As a result, the “the blood running down their bodies” was just from those deep “wear” spots and what made it run down their bodies was the extensive amount of sweat pouring down their upper torsos. So it was mostly bloody red colored sweat…but it was graphic.
Now….those knotheads could have fixed that problem by wearing their shirts and slowing down just a little bit to keep that packboard from banging and rubbing quite so bad. But that wasn’t the point or their main concern, it all fit in with the hotshot mentality and they liked the blood streaming down their bodies with their sweat because that meant they embraced the suck and were better than those of us sans blood.
Now…I will also tell you that what made the situation even worse, was the helislack foreman (Steve Jenner) always took the test with us even though he didn’t have to because that little guy could RUN (the forest helicopter was on our District) and he liked beating everyone on the hotshot crew which he could usually do. And that really amped up the whole competitive thing with our runners trying to beat him.
And you are right…the test wasn’t really that hard, what made it hard were the circumstance we were in. Namely….shitty packboard and a narrow state highway with logging trucks and RV’s that would force us over to the broken edges of the road and soft shoulder. and mostly because it was uphill one way and downhill the other, both of which were bad.
Every male hotshot who could run the 1.5 miles under 11 minutes at that altitude could also pass the packboard test, but no women could pass it.
That was why that specific test was created. It was dreamed up by Bill Buck because it combined upper body strength with leg strength and caridiovascular capacity. And that particular combination targeted women who genetically lacked the upper body strength because that is just how women come without an excessive amount of weight lifting with some juice (steroids) thrown in.
The test wasn’t a reflection of the actual job requirements, it was the equilelent of a literacy test in order to vote in the Jim Crow south.
And after three years without any women passing that test…the EEOC and personnel office finally figured out what Buck was doing and put a stop to that targeted discrimination.
Now…an example of my fluffing a story was when I said I stayed in the shower taking a really long one until those young ladies (I was a young man at the time…NOT a Judge Roy Moore) who had joined me had dried off and left because I didn’t want to admit I was embarrassed to be showering with two good looking babes who had great looking tits.
But after RTS told the story of how that other WF freely admitted he was embarrassed to take a dump sitting next to a woman…I realized, it’s okay to admit my insecurities to you people, who are my closest friends and confidants.
It was kind of like passing a bad car crash. You want to turn and stare, but you know you are supposed to keep your eyes straight ahead and not peek. Which is an uncomfortable position to be in.
And then I fluffed the story by saying the water was cold in an attempt to use self deprecating humor by suggesting the cold water had made my penis extra small in an attempt to make myself more likeable.
The truth is…like all contractor showers, the water was hot and there was lots of it. Contractor caters and showers in fire camp are always first rate.
Oh…and one more thing. The reason that test did not reflect the actual job requirements for a hotshot is because upper body strength is important, but not that important.
As you know, the primary reason Hotshots exist is to cut hot line under challenging and dynamic conditions. But Hotshots [almost] always work as a team, in a crew line, a squad line or in even smaller modules, but hardly ever alone.
And a fireline is usually about 18 inches wide down to mineral soil, which is really pretty easy to make and doesn’t require a lot of strength because each person only takes a little bit, but by the time the last shovel gets there, all organic material has been removed so that person is just doing quality control and regulating the speed by which the unit is working by constantly yelling back and forth with the lead Pulaski or squad boss.
FYI….our squad bosses were always working supervisors, they normally led their squads by cutting line in front of the first Pulaski, but they could leave to scout the line, or meet up with someone such as a saw team or overhead to discuss and resolve an issue.
So…the first couple Pulaski’s were always the big beefy guys, but strength wasn’t as important as endurance to be able to keep making the same repetative body motion over and over again for hours on end.
And that primarily required a strong and determined mind set and attitude. I never noticed women made our crews weaker. Everyone on a hotshot crew contributes their particular strong points to the overall effort, which is what makes a hotshot crew a hotshot crew. And that is where “the whole Is greater than the sum of its parts” concept comes in.
Women can and do bring contributions to any effort even if the average women doesn’t have as much upper body strength as the averahpge man.
For one thing…they are almost always smarter and don’t do as many stupid things to prove there are macho as most men do.
I would bet you my retirement that no woman hotshot crew boss is ever going to kill her crew, or any part of her crew like Gordon King, Tony Czak and Eric Marsh did. It ain’t goin’ to happen.
And IF it seems to anyone that I am being harsh on King, Czak and Marsh…I am. I am pretty sure I am simply stating publicly what everyone else is thinking because I am in a situation where there aren’t any ramifications for me because I bluntly state the truth.
I want every WF supervisor out to know that if you fuck up and kill those you are responsible for…history will remember and brand you as one “stupid fuck.”
It is all about accountability and accepting responsibility, or no one will be safe on the fire line. With great power…comes great responsibility. And crew bosses and WF supervisors have life and death control over those under them. Especially in the high speed low drag, can do, gungho, amped up world on steroids of Hotshots! God Bless America!
Clarification – In my arrogance, I believe my street creds can’t be challenged as far as being a hotshot in the old days…not as a WF in general, because you all know how much I pride myself on never being more than a grunt and a ground pounder on the fire line.
Correction – I should have written “the average fireline is only 18 to 36 inches wide.”
And except for the really odd image and my self esteem as a hotshot…I really would have liked being the, “First Leaf Blower.” Or any Leaf Blower for that matter. Talk about not needing exceptional upper body strength!
I have learned some amazing things on this thread…the introduction of brooms, small yard rakes and leaf blowers into the hotshot tool lineup are just some of them. Whatever works…I guess?
Gary,
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Clarification needed here: “But after RTS told the story of how that other WF freely admitted he was embarrassed to take a dump sitting next to a woman …”
What I said was BILL BUCK was embarrassed attempting to engage a woman in a conversation while, sitting next to him in a communal open latrine,
Contractor showers were not always the greatest. I remember open-air showers with enclosed by fence posts and canvas and wooden pallets to stand on. Cold as f**k when the wind blew and at night but there was a benefit. That means the women also had open-air showers …
And thanks for clarifying on the cold water effects to your junk. It’s a given, the shrinkage is embarrassing.
The Southwestern HS Crew Squad Bosses were always working supervisors, That was not the case with the California HS Crews where their Foremen and Squad Bosses do not actually work and build line.
In general, the big guys ate too much and drank too much water and could not handle the heat very well, so we focused on hiring the more wirey cross country runners and wrestlers. However, we did hire at least one big guy each year for moving the heavy stuff.
I totally agree that women can and do bring many contributions to the HS effort. They are almost always much smarter than most guys and don’t do as many stupid macho BS things.
I agree that no woman hotshot crew boss is ever going to kill her crew, or any part of her crew like Gordon King, Tony Czak and Eric Marsh did.
Andi also agree withe this: “every WF supervisor out to know that if you fuck up and kill those you are responsible for…history will remember and brand you as one “stupid fuck.” Or worse!
Great discussion, GLO & Arty!
1. You to ought to get together on a project to straighten out ihc history for real. I read so much incomplete & erroneous info on the web concerning them. Think about it.
2. The competitiveness of shot crews is legendary, both from personal observation & your info. Did you know that the feds are studying the possible need for a new fitness test for shot crews? I read some of the study. In their research they have found beginning of shift pack weights north of 45lbs & subsequent huge energy expenditures beginning of shift in full gear hike-ins. Apparently the crew members involved in the study would swallow a capsule in the morning which allows research teams to monitor exertion levels. Given the competitive nature of shot crews, who of you thinks there may be a little bravado involved in participants in the program to show how hard they work (badass,) which may skew the results? I agree the current fitness is a minimum standard that for most is easy to pass (unless you are short!) but I question whether making a harder test is truly reflective of what hotshots need to be. Moderate steady all day long workers with a good head/attitude vs. the fitness freak? I think they should manditorily reduce the new pack weights by an amount equal to the weight of a fire shelter…for starters. Throw em in the trash!
I’m a deep thinker. What say you?
Happy Thanksgiving to you too, Arty & old Bob.
RTS,
OMG…A woman came in and sat down next to our Primary Fire God in the latrine…now that is really a funny story! Thanks for clarifying that, priceless!
And yes…I guess you are right about both the shower contractors and probably the caterers as well. I think there were some cold and muddy showers and we were usually to short on time and sleep to take one anyway. I have a tendency to just remember the good things about the job but that is easy to do when you haven’t been on the line for over thirty years…OMG!
And I agree with you about the ideal hotshot, if the USFS ever starts genetically engineering and breeding them, I rethink they should use your model.
THE Woodsman,
I don’t know what to think about the things you wrote about except tracking down and correcting all of the erroneous information out there would require far more than what I can do,
I have tried several times just to correct the wrong information on the Santa Fe Hotshot official website by emailing the webmaster listed on the site, and he just ignores me. He has never even emailed me back much less made the corrections,
The genesis of Hotshots in general and probably all crews is so murky and lost in time, especially before what I will call the “professionalization” of the job, is the biggest problem. And that happened whenever they created the current organization with the standardized structure and the written manual I was so impressed to find out about from you.
The bottom line is the USFS viewed Hotshots just like they did paper sleeping bags or other property that wasn’t important or valuable enough to inventory and assign a tracking number to. They call it “disposable property” that has very little value and is easily replaced. Hotshots crews used to be made up of nothing but people in transition to being or doing something else…almost anything else.
I think the worst thing and something that is very telling…is the fact the USFS itself doesn’t even know what year they first formed the first Hotshot crew.
The official timeframe is either in 1947, or 1948 on either the Angeles or the Cleveland National Forests, which is pretty sad if you think about it. At least there have been huge improvements and important changes since my day. RTS has been there for all of it.
The only thing I know for sure, is that no hotshot should ever stand up, water up, tool up, line up, saddle up, listen up and hit the fireline with anything more than can fit into a teardrop daypack plus water and fire shelter. And yes…the fire shelter should be placed on the trash pile of history and then forgotten about.
We all have our pet peeves and bones to chew on about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire. Mine is the realization that I was not trained, and they are still not training on the proper use and deployment of a fire shelter they condition everyone to depend on to save their lives.
There is just no other explanation than the Granite Mountain Hotshots were trained to die horrible deaths by deploying worthless placebo fire shelters in an area that was not surviveable because it was about the size of a three car garage when they needed as much as 16.5 acres. Which means it wasn’t anyway near a close judgement call. If that isn’t criminal negligence…I can’t imagine what is.
Every wildland firefighter must be trained immediately on the concept of, “How Big Is Big Enough?” and be able to answer that question in at least the abstract, even if they can’t spit out the specific calculations.
I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving!
Deep Thinking Woodsman,
The “capsule” that you referred to is “just a little purple pill” that is virtually harmless say the Test Administrators.
Really, virtually harmless?
How about them really containing insidious NANOTECHNOLOGY and really being kinda hazardous to one’s health.
http://www.futureforall.org/nanotechnology/risks.htm
I agree with you on the moderate steady all day long workers with a good heads / attitudes vs. the fitness freaks. The fitness freaks tend to ‘cut line and whine’ a lot.
The pack weights definitely need to be reduced, especially the sawyers and swampers. Rather that reduce them by an amount equal to the weight of a fire shelter, make them optional, unless one feels the need to carry one.
Make knowing, mitigating, and then following The WF Rules MANDATORY instead of security blanket fire shelters.
Name me one fire where a WF was burned over, deployed a fire shelter, or was killed by following The WF Rules.
Daily Courier article today titled: “New book chronicles Yarnell Fire tragedy ground zero.
Couple survived fire inside Glen Ilah-area ranch house”
Joy has posted about some of this already.
“At about 11 p.m., though, they had a visit from two local fire officials that foreshadowed the significance of their ranch location.
“The fire officials came to the ranch to ask Lee if they could use the ranch – named Not Muchuva Ranch, not Boulder Springs Ranch, as has been widely written — as a “safety zone,” if it became necessary.
“Lee told them they were welcome to use our place as their safety zone and they could put the pumpkin (an inflatable, orange, 5,000-gallon pool-like water tank) next to our own 5,000-gallon water storage tank,” Helm wrote in her book.”
“Contrary to what many people have heard, that the Yarnell Hill Fire went around us leaving us unscathed, it didn’t!” Helm wrote. “The reported 50-to-100-foot flames hit us straight on, rolling up, over, and around our shop, barn, and house.”
“Sometimes I wondered if our side of the story really mattered,” Helm wrote, adding that she was encouraged by author John Maclean and former wildland firefighter Holly Neill. “They believed our experience was significant in relation to the overall telling of this tragic event,” she said.
“Each of them has a story, a separate life from the others, but 19 were side-by-side, as one, facing the flaming front, together,” Helm wrote.”
To the PFD, it was “just one of those things that happened … you can call it an accident.”
SIDE-BY-SIDE AS ONE FACING THE FLAMING FRONT TOGETHER..
However, that was totally unnecessary after succumbing to the insidious power of Groupthink and leaving a perfectly good Safety Zone, traveling down through thick, decadent unburned chaparral at the worst possible time because of . And a PFD mindset that was “ingrained in them … not going to sit up there when [there is a] potential for people to be at risk somewhere … that structures came first … and they protected themselves as a last resort. …and that’s why foremen run into burning buildings …and no wildland firefighter is satisfied sitting in there [in the black] and watching the fire progress … without taking some action.”
I was in Yarnell making visits
In one visit today of many- the man said he was with Lee Helm that weekend and they looked at the fire one moment and next moment it was by the Shrine to Sesame area separate from the one out by Peeples—he said when he got back from evacuation and they gathered at a local eatery a Peeples Valley FF admitted they were stationed out there and doing a burnout operation with Blue Ridge and by 3pm were told to start leaving that area and there is actual video footage that backs that up of PV water tender leaving that area. So this fella said noone is gonna see anything from YHF if crap like CA is happening…yet I really WANT the CLASS ACTION SUIT for CA to reach me so I can cut to the chase and guide them as I am already ahead on that fire and can share where to begin…on their research…I also by chance am playing scrabble on facebook with someone that lost their home on YHF and is mentioned in Helms book and they said by 3pm Friday she SAW the quads and tools up in the Weavers…so why has she never been formally interviewed—she has alot of data on film…I did not make facebook for that but has become that it seems—it is just to show how I shifted from desert walking to street to passing out/seizures to now over at the old trading post for my walks which I am going to have a few stop by Saturday to sing with me and dance—some all the way from Nova Scotia and Cornville/Payson areas….blues and jazz and gospel…should be a good old fashion porch time fun…but yeah I do not GET why most that were on that YHF were relocated or transferred or no longer EASY to get to and talk and we just cannot keep making books or movies UNTIL someone YES someone gets to the bottom of what too many SEEN between Sesame and Shrine…why was it NOT in the official reports—WHY?
Happy Thanksgiving everyone-
Cross-posted in the research paper article (but probably lost in the comments):
Joy,
I haven’t been maintaining the Basecamp site — I’m considering taking it down (due to security issues and lack of activity). If you still have the Yarnell Hikers account you signed in with, you should get an update to that effect, and we can discuss it. Thanks!
Good to see people still working here, particularly with the new article posted. Some hope, anyway.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-deaths-were-avoidable-if-crew-had-followed-wildfire-safety-rules-research-paper-concludes/
Sitta-
yeah that email closed this year
yeah I did post and it said 46 comments but it also said MODERATION so looks like it never went on there but I posted right when you posted- Sorry I never rechecked.
This week is 80s week on my vlog
and my 80s stuff does not fit me
except the stuff gramms and gramps sent me so long ago that I said “Im not wearing THAT Mom and Dad”
so they are up in Heaven thinking SHE FINALLY IS WEARING IT…
it was a blast today…
from 130-530 pure fun and dancing…
and I got so zoned out on Gloria Estefan blasting the Congo as I had every part perfect where 9 cars pulled over and a few video taped it for me to soon give it to me…
they said my salsa timing and rhythm was so spot on
but how I did it at 200 pounds ???
but I did my normal 80’s double cartwheel and flip so perfect
but tonight ICE is my best friend…aging sucks in some ways…Ace Bandage has joined my friendship list tonight too
maybe even some warm fresh ginger in hot water…then I will boil some bananas/water because that helps the body go into heal mode and sleep mode too…
bananas…
??????
you gone bananas Joy
???????
I do not do pharmaceuticals…I learn the body and what can it take naturally…
my google reply because I am tired to give ya a yoda one…Potassium and magnesium are natural muscle relaxants, and bananas are a good source of both. They also contain the amino acid L-tryptophan, which gets converted to 5-HTP in the brain. The 5-HTP in turn is converted to serotonin (a relaxing neurotransmitter) and melatonin.
B-A-N-A-N-A-S
not to get all hollaback girl on you
Ha ha, I’m listening to early Depeche Mode and OMD right now. Just can’t get enough….
Yay for bananas. And avocados. Never could dance or do those gymnastics moves, myself.
Glad I could reach you at this site. I’m going to go ahead and shut down that other one.
ok, Sitta…close shop
I ended up bilaterally spraining both ankles when I got them assessed and tore an area and bruised a few areas…and my bilateral neuropathy has advanced since last visit and the passing out is not helping…but still around…”I think” it is me….
here is a night cap for ya Sitta— because I “understand you”
hee hee
https://youtu.be/EFeh8TGOVrQ
https://youtu.be/5evrkeNpOBg
oh Sitta—
this song best represents YHF aftermath===
https://youtu.be/suvxVcdRlr8
“I’ve got a secret and I can’t explain
All the time I’ve waited for this day
All along I was never in doubt
I’ve always knew it could ever get out
There are things that I cannot tell
And there are things that you know damn well
This is getting very hard for me
I guess you’d better just wait and see
Shut up!
This is all
This is all
Secret.
You brought a message and the message was clear
All the time you wipe away that tear…”