Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII, Chapter XXIV, Chapter XXV, Chapter XXVI and Chapter XXVII and XXVIII.
© Copyright 2019 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
I did not need to hear this–my Youngest Son, Jaime is in the hospital for prostate cancer–they won’t know how bad until they operate but the doctors says it is not a good situation. So I do believe in concerted prayer, meditation or good thoughts toward his healing. There is an ether that carries good intentions that the scientists call the Quantum theory. Whatever it is works.
This is something that is ;happening an despite a hundred years of the best medical science, cancer is on the rise. We live in a chemical world and everything from plastic and food additives to chem trails, air pollution and retardant only to name a few are involved in causing the rise in cancer rates. Jet fuel emits some of the greatest cancer causing toxins, retardants are extremely high agents, and even plastic that emits BHP is not good. Chlorine is used to bleach white flour so despite what they say there are small residues that add up in products made with bleached flour. But we can not live without our white bread –that brown stuff has flavor.
So the young folk inherit out generation’s corporate toxic pollution–their health and life at stake. Perhaps by collective understanding of how corporations are only hell bent on profits and have no interest in the welfare of the common folk, the new generation might effect positive changes.
My son is 45–these cancers are attacking people at younger ages and now even babies are being found with them. Can big Pharma medicate them back to health. Well not much success with cancer for sure. And now the super bugs people come down with don’t even have drugs that work.
This new carnovirus–is that one–is it a new government designer germ for low level hidden germ warfare that escaped some government laboratory? Or was it a purposeful experiment on people to see the effects. Governments, no matter whose they may be are not beyond doing these kinds of experiments on their own people. Shit, our own government allowed people to be subjects of downwind nuclear fall out without even warning them–to the tune of over 125 above ground tests at the Las Vegas Test Site. And what the hell is in that secret ingredients of retardant, and what besides aluminum dust are they filling the sky with? If you want to call it cynical, conspirator theory, have at it. But the truth is the truth and as you really got a good dose of government honesty, then look at Yarnell and the purposeful black out of truth.
I did hear some good talk from the Democrats about weening us from oil. Is this another thing like Regan–I am going to do something about excess spending and the deficit budget, then spends more than any other President in history. We are too jaded to liars—we accept them to readily and where it hurts everyone–in people allowed to leadership positions.
Nothing is more distasteful than to see 19 young men killed and no truth of the reasons for their deaths. But we are so used to killing–we wiped out several million Arabs for control of their oil. Worse we caused the deaths of thousands of our own young soldiers for the same reason and we continue to do so–America has to be Great Again. When I see Bush, and Colin Powell, I remember how they used the twin towers knocked down by the Saudis to attack Iraq. How they lied about all the nuclear crap Saddam was supposed to have and the lies they made up to cause all those deaths. Indeed they protected the big corporate oil interests and their own stocks and interests–but at what a horrendous cost.
Will there be honesty in government–certain there are many good people involved but even one bad apple in a power position is too many.
These are my requests, my opinions and beliefs–not necessarily those of the IM site.
New Chapter:
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-481695
Was anyone from flagstaff interviewed
Any
Bill?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qcq-fM-wvFk
If sonny were to tell you he has seen unidentified flying objects, even photographed them and had seen aliens in the raw–you would say–yeah we know–so has a bunch of others–and so what?
But if Dr. Edgar Mitchell, ScD, Phd, Sixth astronaut on the moon were to tell you the same, you ought to listen unless you are comatose. Yet he is not the only astronaut to tell such things and add ti that many hundreds of pilots and high ranking military personnel–your objections and excuses against such overwhelming evidence should make you the laughing stock. Yet the people in government covering up the reality of alien appearances is so well orchestrated that those that are pilots or in government circles dare not even report the sightings else they draw ridicule or loose their careers.
Well in the case of Dr. Mitchell and most of the others reporting they have no fear of loosing their careers–most as Dr. Mitchell are retired and can now talk–and do so despite the government having warned them and signed them to a mum order. These are Americans who have risked their lives and would again to defend this country–they are not ignorant of their first amendment rights and will speak about what they experienced. These are people that see it their duty to inform the public of what is in existence with the possibilities connected to what they have witnessed. If Dr. Mitchell said to me there on the moon I saw two huge alien craft and they were watching us–I would believe him. His witness backs up the many other sightings of alien craft by not only other astronauts but a multitude of other reputable people.
Yet when Presidents can not even get into the files that CIA keeps on these thing then I have to wonder do we have two governments–each with tremendous power? Well Kennedy found out that we did after his brother started looking into CIA actions.
So if you do not believe there are things outside your miniscule existence on earth where your 5 senses operate in a frequency band of less than .05% then you are one of the brain trained sheep. Science itself operates in the .05% band, yet even many scientists now espouse the idea that there is more than just the earthlings around. The Physicist Stanton Friedman, MSc has a book called Flying Saucers–check that out of a library and read just the Preface by Dr. Mitchell–if that does not pique your interest then go back to sleep.
It is a similar brain wash about Covid-19. Every President since I was born some 76 years ago has talked about the need for a New World Order. However getting a free people residing in America to accept such a thing has been a long and tedious path for the Elites that believe it is the world solution and the ultimate end to their goal. They believe their imagined god like wisdom with tight controls will not only empower them to rule wisely, but also to save the planet. Their patience is running out–they see the end near if something is not done, including what their scientists affirm–a drastic reduction in population–not in millions but in billions of souls.
The Covid-19 ordeal is just one method in the needed control mechanism. Most of us in the past had been downloaded with one religion or another. They are all very similar, yet causes of major wars. One section is set against another–and if you havr seen a gila monster fight with his brother the rattle-snake you would understand how humans are ready to kill over religious ideas–something that are only downloads operating and manufactured by the wisdom of the elite. Very useful, just as modern TV is to keep people confused and in sheep mode.
Of late, there is a step up in removing freedoms. The big pushers of the New World Order, began with the Clintons–their war on so called militia groups and bone heads like David Koresh–and such operations as Oklahoma City Bombing really opened up the use of force and stricter rules. That bombing was suspect since there were two seismic blasts and a second known terrorist that accompanied McVeigh was never found.
But the real kicker came in when Bush and friends allowed the 911 false flag event. That brought in the Patriot Act so all sorts of breach of privacy, perceived threats of terrorism, searches without warrant, and throttling of free speech and even press could be enforced–and were. If you were at Yarnell during the months of that martial law and necessity of a green card just to enter the town–one citizens were not allowed to pass though for months, then you would know the extent of power the government has in the name of protecting the people. By the way, they never did bother to investigate the many deaths of the elderly after the excessive retardant dumps about and in the town.
So the Covid thing not only follows the Chinese model of Tyrannical shut down of the livelihoods of the small business and common working man, it limits his freedoms and mandates his confinement to his residence. This all an excuse that it will save the elderly–and I have to believe the people instigating this whole ordeal designed this thing with the explicit purpose of targeting the elderly. They know these restrictions are not to protect the elderly–people would do that anyway and much better than the government controls will.
Now enters 5G and they are doing this despite knowing the power of microwave and the disastrous effects they can have on the population. But we are mostly sheep–our government would not lie to us–and especially the Corporations that own the government–or would they. Yarnell is a good example–but only one of the many, many that both corporations and their influence in government have proven that not all politicians are honest, nor are their puppeteers that finance their elections and provide millions of dollars in lobbyist costs.
And if you think Bill Gates and Elon Musk (they are the do- gooder fronts) are not privy to what is going on and New World Order advocates, then you have you head in the sand. Well maybe many do not and are also advocates of this New World Order agenda.
Do I believe all forest people are liars and government people and even politicians? Obviously not, when you see such as the astronauts stand up for truth, people such as Jesse Ventura, a well know politician and Ron Paul and others standing up–you have to say there is hope. Are they overwhelmed? Trump came in like a champ for the people but his colors are known–I saw them from the start and why I would not vote for either of the two liars available.
These are my opinions–likely not your own. But I appreciate your right to express your own. To deny a citizen that right is to limit possibilities–something religion, government, and tyrants would do- do not offend our inalienable rights beginning with the first amendment.
Hey Gary-
Are you starting the New Year ( 2020) with a bang-
using your new Franklin Armory binary trigger on your AR-15? I am sure Sonny already has his from Santa.
Happy New Year everyone. I took a fall yesterday keeping me at ease and resting-
God Bless you-
Yes…I am starting it out with a bang with a couple of Sig Sauer P939 Legion baby Sigs. I had to buy two of them because they are so small. And no…I don’t add after market parts or have gunsmiths monkey with my guns by polishing the actions or anything else because then they would no longer function according to factory and therefore approved specifications and I would be operating out of policy (Standard Operating Procedures) and I coloring outside the lines. How about you? Did you get a new high speed trigger as well?
No. I only like my shots to go off when I pull the trigger not to go off when I pull and release.
You meant the 938…right? I don’t like Cerakote…I like old fashioned blue or black nitrate or stainless..no coating.
Is that a corporal stripe on your grips?
Is this how it was for you Gary
https://youtu.be/zjBPHEnHsys
Gee whiz…kinda like that but nowhere near that level. Those guys are bad ass and kinda scare me and I am normally fearless. 😦
They have taken it to the next level. Scary.
And the BIA has always been in a league of there own and they can make up their rules as they go along. The U.S. Forest Service Office Of Personnel would never allow anything that takes training to that level of quasi military indoctrination.
American Indians have by far the highest ratio of volunteer military service compared to every other sun group. And they almost always join the Marines.
I think that that Chief and his instructors are all Marines since they say there is no such thing as a former Marine?
That was the same level of latitude I think that the GMIHC had?
Emulating the military service branches indoctrination training sure worked out great for El Cariso. (Cheap shot? Maybe. Truth hurts. )How about we talk about the green berets again. As a culture we’ve learned next to nothing in over a century of wildland firefighter training. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.
Here’s my advice:
1. Throw out ALL the training and start over. Hire Gary L. Olson to construct the framework and a road map
2. Establish federal oversight to the entire wildland fire service, soup to nuts and specifically exclude all of the traditional land management agencies from having any power in it. We need a 3rd party board for accountability.
3. Dissolve the entire fire retardant program. No more billion dollar red snot shows for the public that doesn’t do any good anyway. Rotorwing and SEATS with H2O only.
4. Claw back every single fire shelter in existence and put them through a woodchipper for recycling. Stop lying about their effectiveness and training good people to lay down and die. Never speak a word of them again.
5. Return to management of public forest resources for people and provide the boss (the taxpayer) unfettered access to the decisions that impact local communities and their economic interests.
I could come up with more but it’s a start.
That video is off all known charts R I D I C U L O U S.
Okay, okay, I accept take the position, but only as an independent contractor. I do have my pension and Social Security to protect. I can’t afford to lose one dollar for every two I make! That means…means…means…I would be losing 25% of my pay. 😮
Well actually…I did write a partial chapter where I compared the Black Beret El Cariso Hotshots with the legendary 75th Ranger Regiment, also known as Army Rangers with their black beret knock offs and connect the dots between that attitude and their deaths.
Gee whiz…I’m getting back up again on pieces I want to post!
No…it’s the symbol for the Legion Series of fine Sig Sauer handguns. And now I can buy LEGION SERIES merchandise because by spending a lot more money for Legion guns that those without Cerakote coating, I proved I am a sucker for the hype and I can now proudly display my extravagance on hats and other articles of clothing because I successfully demonstrated I have excess disposable income and not very much common sense, so they know now they could sell me just about anything by hyping it up as the next great thing.
Why do you ask? Do you want me to buy you a Star Trooper Legion Hat because that’s what it looks like me…the symbol for the new Space Force!
Yes…that’s right. the 938.
I don’t know…yet? I wanted to try the Cerakote. You are definitely a traditionalist and I usually am as well, but they have been really talking up the Legion series and I wanted to try them. As I have said before, I now only carry the cocked and locked because otherwise, I will just be standing there pulling the trigger on what my muscle and brain memory says is a standard double action on the first shot Sig like I carried for 30 plus years until the bad guy finally standing there trying to make to my gun go bang and he shots me dared because my brain couldn’t function properly under stress and I won’t be able to remember to click off the cocked and locked…lock that has never been there before. It’s one manual of arms at a time for me because I know how simple my brain works under extreme pressure.
As far as your other idea. It’s going to go something like this;
Mrs. Collara, it is true you are a killer…right?
No.
Well…isn’t it true you killed my clients loving family member?
Yes.
So you admit that are are killer then?
No…I didn’t admit that.
Well…you just admitted that you did in fact kill my clients son/husband/ brother. So according to your own testimony just a few minutes ago….you admitted are a killer.
Now…Mrs. Collara did you make any after market modifications to your gun?
Yes
Did you make those modifications because you wanted to be a more effective killer and make sure you delivered the kill shot?
No
What specific modification to you make to your rifle?
I installed a Franklin Armory binary trigger on my AR-15.
In order to make you a better killer and it a better instrument of death?
No
Why did you do it then?
Because the high speed and very expensive after market trigger has a crisper break and I can be more accurate with my shot.
Oh…so you did put in some kind of high speed special operations trigger so you could be a more effective killer didn’t you? It wasn’t good enough for you use the trigger that the engineers who designed that gun specifically intended to be used with that particular gun? Because why…it wasn’t a good enough instrument of death for you because you are a committed killer?
Yes…I mean no…I mean yes, I wanted to hit what I was aiming at.
You shot that poor man in the middle of his chest and the hydroponic shock wave cone from the bullet you deliberately fired at his chest area that was traveling at 33000 feet per second exploded his heart and it became just a gooey mess of fluid and muscle and he died instantly…didn’t he?
Yes…I dropped him in his tracks like the sack of shit he was.
Objection your honor. I make a motion to remove Mrs Collara’s inflammatory remarks from the record regarding the false narrative she is trying to spin about the victim in this case who was a God fearing and loving family man.
Motion approved. Let the record so show the victim was a God fearing man who loved his family.
Thank you your honor. Now…Mrs. Collara, with your high speed killing tool that had been modified to be suitable for special operations to use in a war zone, you deliberately killed that God fearing man who loved his family isn’t that true?
No…I didn’t kill him deliberately.
Well…you shot him center mass and caused his heart to be liquified in the hydroponic shock wave cone that travels in front of every one of the bullets you were using. What did you think was going to happen.
I don’t know?
Are you a good shot Mrs. Collura?
No…I am a great shot.
So you could have just wounded him without killing him? You didn’t have to kill him did you by shooting him center mass, did you!
But I was taught to aim for the center mass because that is the most likely target to hit.
Well…with your high speed after market killer trigger and your superior shooting skill, you could have just shot him in the leg…right?
I guess so?
BUT YOU DIDN’T SHOOT THAT POOR VICTIM, WHO WAS A GOD FEARING MAN WHO LOVED AND PROVIDED FOR HIS FAMILY IN HUS LEG…DID YOU! And in fact, the truth is…you murdered him with your special operations combat rifle, isn’t that true?
No.
You have already testified you did. Were you lying now or were you lying then?
I don’t know…neither I guess?
Now…about this after market high speed killing trigger system, which authorized, certified and duly trained armorer or gun smith made this major modification to your killer rifle?
I didn’t take it to an armorer or gun smith. I did it at home myself in my kitchen because it was pretty simple to install.
Oh…I see. Are you a trained armorer?
No
Are you a trained gunsmith.
No
Have you been certified by the Serbian military to work on there odd ball caliber combat killing rifles you favor?
No.
Your honor and ladies and gentlemen of the jury…I rest my case against this admitted killer of a God fearing man who loved his family and who died at the hands of a reckless kitchen trained tinkerer who thinks she knows more about her killing machine than the engineers who designed it and the manufacturing company who built it and brought it to market for this…this gun nut to specifically modify so she be sure and explode that poor man’s heart and cause the rest of his internal organs to partially liquify and be violently displaced as well inside his chest cavity. If she would have just used the factory trigger, she probably would have just hit his leg or missed him entirely. But she didn’t do that did she! This Black Widow made sure she killed him dead…DEAD….DEAD!
Judgement for the plaintiff. Court adjourned.
Wow. You read too much Massad Ayoob stories.
Gary, that is a two percent chance your story could happen … also remember it’s in who you know and money money money and your legal team that dance the dance 💃 in that court room. Sonny can tell you a good real time story about the court room and a Satanist.
Franklin Armory binary trigger is a waste of money and ammo and will probably be outlawed like bump stocks
Nahhhh, That scenario is only possible if you are a law enforcement officer and you modify your gun in violation of agency policy that always require issued guns (at least at the federal level) to remain at factory specs without any changes that aren’t specifically authorized by written agency policy. That even includes really little changing the grips. And….if you are found to be “out of policy” you get thrown to the wolves. Same thing for the ammo you shoot in your gun, it has to be specific issued ammo.
The factory triggers on most AR15 platform guns are atrocious, even Sigs, so I am saving up my lunch money to replace all of my Sig rifle with Geissele triggers at once. Or at least those that didn’t come with some form of an “enhanced” trigger. Sig actually puts Geissele triggers in some of their AR15 variants.
https://geissele.com/
Happy New Year! 🎈🎆🎊
If the description of the trigger in your rifle says Mil Spec…that’s the code word that means your trigger probably sucks.
So…there’s a chance?
😂
Objection! Badgering the witness.
Sustained.
Do you mean the Black Widow killer with her highly modified special operations weapon of war that was used to murder a God fearing, loving family man in his prime? I withdraw the question.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you are to pretend you didn’t hear that last question even though it is seared into your mind.
That Trump has stopped the providing of thousands of sniper rifles and propelled grenades among other warfare items to the Ukraine did not mean he objected to it–only that he expected an investigation into the dealings of his Biden rivals. The Bidens were certainly into some financial greed and gains from their political connections and Trump wanted to expose that and of course the Bidens made up some stories to try to distance themselves. But isn’t this what politics is about–you become one to be a power and to feather your nest–if you are honest you soon have to drop out since the corporations will find a way to squash you if you do not follow the agenda.
Why the hell are we not providing sniper rifles and ammunition to all the American patriots? They will be needing them down the line and instead we are constantly supplying foreign nations with arms. We keep interfering in the affairs of foreign nations where we ought to be taking care of our own.
But the facts are there that billions made in arms provisions to foreign nations. And who gets the profits–those arms manufacturers of course gain the most, the steel companies, the mines and the workers. So Trump would say as every President before him has said it is good business and good for the economy. Who pays for the aid money and these arms and so forth–the tax payer. But I am surprised since the country is so deep in debt, can the Tax Payer afford more debt?
The printing presses will be hot keeping up for the payments–printing more dollars. The interests the feds get is so the bankers get richer and the tax payer makes them fatter. But then you see how the worker is in debt for the rest of his life on a home mortgage, a car, his credit cards, college loans and trying to keep up with the Jonesies, he had become a slave to the system. And Lord have mercy should he or his pet get sick. The doctor might own his or her assets but the bank will always get a cut of what is left –usually the home and car to auction off for their interest of loaning out a debt note. And just to think it all happens with phony money created by a Ponzi scheme organized by world bankers. It keeps on working as long as no one notices but you best hope you are out of debt or near so and have a good sack of beans handy in case you happen to be around when the shit hits the fan.
Well we are a resilient people–warriors that are willing to kill even each other off as we did in the Civil War. We just get our wires crossed once in a while listening to the Political Hacks. Lincoln never was much interested in freeing slaves but he did not want to see the country broken up. I personally think all the slave holders should have been hung but that was never done. Jefferson and Washington were both slave holders–so what can you say there. And now the most of the country is enslaved. Karma is somehow tied in with the Leprechaun.
But most of us who came to this country were not slave owners, and pretty much enslaved ourselves by the system and industrialists. We would not enslave others. But certainly Karma always answers those actions and the country is getting some pay back for its ill deeds of those that we have allowed to do their dirty deeds. The Civil was was part of that pay back, but it continues on.
Now we have people in power doing the English thing of becoming an empire controlling world affairs–not because we should be minding our own business but because some organization wants to milk the third world countries.
Is there a silver lining to this cloud? The clouds are even fake these days–so yes there is a fake silver lining.
Happy. New Year Sonny
We all are on. New chapter on IM
Oh…and one more thing. I’m not saying that RTS is wrong with his views on wildland firefighter safety…I’m just saying they are aspirational. RTS is telling you how wildland firefighter safety would be in a perfect world. The Woodsman, Ted and I are telling you how wildland firefighter safety is in the real world. And life on the fire line is very much in the real world.
There are good reasons why part of everyone’s job was to keep an eye out for overhead in general and Safety Officers in particular making their way down the line. And then quickly nonverbally passing the warning on to others because we didn’t want them to get in the way of you know…our veni, vidi, vici the freakin’ fire!
And the universal hand sign for, “Heads up…Overhead coming” was to wave the flattened hand with all of your fingers and thumb together in short horizontal strokes right above your crotch. Get it…Overhead? 😂 It was acceptable for women to use the same hand gesture although it definitely loses something in the translation.
Thankfully…most Safety Officers spent most of their time sittin’ around the salamanders sippin’ coffee and bullshittin’ anyone who would listen to them. And the rest of the fire overhead? They expected the fire to be fought in the real world…they just didn’t want it done in front of them so they would have plausible deniability when something invariably went wrong.
The bold wildland firefighters are promoted and the meek are passed over. And after consecutive generations of wildland firefighters being raised that way, more than 100 years in the case of the Silverback Mountain Gorilla…the USFS and whose Standard Operating Procedures permeate throughout the entire wildland firefighting community…you end up with a very bold culture indeed and safety be damned.
And like I just opined a short time below…the question wasn’t whether I colored inside the lines or not because I always did. The question is…where were those lines? I was a very good wildland firefighting soldier who always happily and enthusiastically carried water for our fire gods…until I learned they have feet of clay and now I am conflicted 😐.
Or what your definition is of a line…
Take 2
My reference to coloring inside the lines is a metaphor that conjures up an image of a coloring book for children. What I am referring to without using a metaphor is following all of the principles outlined in the 10, the 18 and LCES, in addition to every other principle of safe and efficient wildland firefighting tactics and strategies that can only be described as fighting fire by following “best practices.”
The specific problem I have with the 10 and the 18, is that they are to specific while being overly broad and repetitive at the same time. Which isn’t a very easy thing to do.
As a matter of fact to get there…it took subsequent generations of committee work piled on top of committee work like layers of slopped on paint to arrive at their current status when they started with a deeply flawed and very 1957ish premise in the first place in the apply named, “Report of Task Force to Recommend Action to Reduce the Chances of Men Being Killed by Burning While Fighting Fire. (Nothing was said about saving the women.)
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5393525.pdf
And don’t blame me for this draft copy, I can’t even find the final (which I have) report anywhere by using the Google Machine.
Followed up by the now equally outdated and succinctly named,
REPORT OF THE FIRE SAFETY REVIEW TEAM, MARCH 1967, A PLAN TO FURTHER REDUCE THE CHANCES OF MEN BEING BURNED WHILE FIGHTING FIRES
https://www.coloradofirecamp.com/fire-origins/1967-introduction.htm
And yes I know…I am shameless while using the Colorado Fire Camp as a reference while trash talking them at the same time. But like I said, there is really good and really bad training out there and even the best isn’t using FLETC approved instructor methodology. And as everyone knows, FLETC is the finest law enforcement training facility in the world…according to them. They don’t say why they are better than the FBI Academy
The problem I have with the current way wildland firefighters are taught is that it is done by the numbers and by rote which is a, “a mechanical or habitual repetition of something to be learned.” I could write an entire chapter on how WF training should be conducted and where the current system fails young people.
And just as a reminder, after I was given what is probably nearly identical introduction to wildland firefighting training (what is commonly referred to as S-110, S-130 and S-190, which just all kinda run together in a cartoon format) in 1974, I was left with the impression that every fire line that was cut needed to be 1.5 times the fuel the fire was burning in.
And when I looked out the window, we were surrounded by mature Ponderosa Pine trees up to 100 feet tall…YIKES! Cut a 150 foot fire line? I sure was glad I was wearing a nice clean U.S. Forest Service uniform and they just wanted me to find nice people to talk to about being safe with their campfire.
As a matter of fact, the current system is so deeply flawed and outdated…they don’t even understand just how bad it is. If I had to sum it up in just one sentence, I would say that current law enforcement training is based on how to train adults and current WF training is based on just the opposite of that. And about 50 years behind current best practices standards because it is so outdated to boot.
Now…that being said, there are some very good instructors out there putting on very some good training. But it is hit or miss without any uniformity and without an appropriate level of oversight without quality control. And even the best WF instructors who are currently presenting the best training aren’t being given access to the most up to date methods and materials.
Training is always the FIRST thing the “agencies” cut during budget shortfalls and after decades of doing just that, especially when the training wasn’t very good and was hopelessly outdated in the first place, WF training can only be described as abysmal when evaluated as a whole.
What makes me such an expert? Well…here are just some of my instructors credentials.
1. I was actively engaged in training as an instructor in both FIRE and law enforcement for about 30 years. I was a law enforcement instructor at the national and interagency level for about half that time which even included teaching the military at Ft. Bliss, Texas.
2. My instructor training includes successfully completing the Law Enforcement Instructor Training Program at FLETC, (Glycolic).
https://www.fletc.gov/training-program/law-enforcement-instructor-training-program
Description: The Law Enforcement Instructor Training Program (LEITP) is designed to provide training in law enforcement instructional skills focused on curriculum development and delivery. Students are required to develop two lesson plans for delivery during the program. One of the lesson plans will be used to deliver a 50 minute practical exercise designed to evaluate your ability to instruct from a lesson plan that you have developed. The LEITP incorporates a variety of instructional methodologies including participative lecture, student-centered learning, demonstrations, role-plays, and presentation laboratories. The program provides students an introduction to presentation skills and curriculum development. The LEITP is a Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers (FLETC) Center Basic (CB) training program.
Prerequisites
Be employed in a law enforcement or law enforcement related position and have been assigned duties that require knowledge of the subject matter.
Be actively engaged in, or expected to be assigned as, a law enforcement instructor for your organization.
Program Curriculum/Syllabus
Ethical Issues in Law Enforcement Training
Principles of Adult Learning
Presentation Skills
Student-Centered Learning
Instructional Systems Design for Law Enforcement
Performance Objectives Development
Testing and Assessment
Training Tools and Technology
Lesson Plan Development
Instructional Methodologies
Introduction to Presentation Graphics
Evaluating Laboratories and Practical Exercises
Classroom Management Issues
Exam – Must score 70% or above
7-10, 30 & 50 Minute Presentations
3. And the highlights of my training duties came when I was name requested by FLETC Staff to participate with the course developmental committee that developed the following Advanced FLETC training;
Backcountry Tactical Tracking Training Program
https://www.fletc.gov/backcountry-tactical-tracking-training-program/backcountry-tactical-tracking-training-program
Advanced ARPA, which I don’t see being offered on the current FLETC training schedule, but here is the basic course to give you an idea of what the “Advanced” course included, plus.
https://www.fletc.gov/training-program/archeological-resources-protection-training-program-xp
4. In addition, I attended and successfully completed both the FLETC Uniformed Police Training Program and the Criminal Investigators Training Program in addition to at least a dozen other advanced FLETC training courses. at the Glynco, Artesia, Pinal Air Park and the Davis-Monthan Air Force Base when the latter two facilities were still operational back in the day,
I know good (appropriate) training when I take it, give it or review the syllabus for it.
That’s it man….that’s the answer. Excellent, standardized, and consistent training is the bedrock foundation to everything mankind does well. And when training is done and is dependent on a systemic patchwork of hit or miss efforts in addition to complex and highly fluid situational variables (e.g. excellent instructors teaching from excellent lesson plans) it adds up to a broken system with random, periodic and unnecessary catastrophic failures.
And for decades now…wildland firefighter agency managers have accepted those random, periodic and unnecessary catastrophic failures as simply the cost of doing business.
And so when those failures invariably happen, they excuse them in a variety of ways and move on as quickly as possible because they know that a thorough and complete review of what went wrong and why it went wrong would reveal all of their failures and the corrupt Faustian bargain they made with the budget Devil.
Thanks JD, I made a rookie mistake by starting to break my comment into sections without saving it in a word program first.
And I may be assuming to much with my assumption that all of you know who does WF FIRE training.
All WF FIRE instructors that I know about or have ever known about come from within the rank and file of employees or managers and supervisors of agencies who are selected at random based primarily on their availability and willingness to be instructors and their supervisors/managers/agencies attitude about letting their day jobs (the job they were hired ostensibly to perform) to go by the wayside for a given period of time.
And of course, at least in theory, those “volunteer” instructors have the appropriate level of knowledge, skills, abilities, experience and education. to be instructors for the subject matter they are teaching. And…it is best if they have a natural ability to effectively be able to be able to verbally (and otherwise) effectively communicate to the students they are trying to teaching.
And the reason I say “natural” ability, is because they never receive ANY formal training on how to be good and effective instructors. Some do and are…and some don’t and aren’t.
But once again, that is rarely the deciding factor in whether they are instructors or not, it is based more on their availability and willingness to be an instructor. And it is often a specific job any given person has that determines whether they will become an instructor by default. As a hotshot squad boss and later crew boss…I automatically became a hotshot instructor.
And once I became the Forest Dispatcher and Interagency FIRE Operations Coordinator, i automatically became a Forest and Region wide FIRE instructor on some subjects I literally knew nothing about and never had either the time or opportunity (or interest) to learn about them.
For example, my biggest epic failure as an instructor was trying to teach others how to set up, read, maintain and operate Remote Automatic Weather Stations (RAWS). They are placed out in the middle of nowhere in the forest on a semi permanent basis to provide the data via satellite in order to get more accurate and specific weather data for a given area.
Or they may be set up in advance of where large and complex prescribed burns are planned in advance of, during, and after the burn to reduce the chances the deliberately ignited fires will go to hell in a hand basket and burn down a big chunk of the forest or a nearby town.
If you accidentally stumbled on to one in the middle of nowhere, you would probably think it is satellite or other UFO just happened to land at that spot. So…given my grasp of mathematical principles, I was pretty much like a monkey trying to have sexual intercourse with a football when it came to my tenure as a RAWS instructor.
It was an ugly period during my career. It was pretty much the same thing when I was told to be a helper and back up instructor with the Santa Fe National Forest Assistant Fire Management Officer (Les Buchanan) teach Fire Behavior which is a mathematically based skill set that is part science, part art and part luck, or at least have the ability to extrapolate accurate conclusions from the available and predicted conditions of dozens of variable. Les was a brilliant nationally recognized Fire Behavior Analyst and once again, I was like that monkey trying to @#$& that football. It was ugly. Oh…and tye only reason the whole RAWS thing wasn’t a complete disaster is because Les had the lead and I was once again just his assistant. Les was brilliant with that stupid RAWS stuff as well.
I have a really poignant and (I can’t think of the right descriptive word or term right now and I need the Woodsman’s help) “Yeah…that figures and really sucks” story to tell as part of my “True Story” series that has been hanging since way back when while TWARE and I were going back and forth on control burns. And now that I am working on my book again…I will work on publishing that story. So all of you can say…”Yeah…that figures and really sucks!” Kinda a “Murphy’s Law” thing.
“Murphy’s law is a popular adage that states that “things will go wrong in any given situation, if you give them a chance,” or more commonly, “whatever can go wrong, will go wrong.” A number of variants on the rule have been formulated, as have several corollaries.”
So who creates the FIRE lesson plans who updates the existing FIRE lesson plans? I dunno 🤷♂️? But if I had to guess…I would say nobody does.
Oh…and one more thing. Being an instructor is a really, really, really hard thing to do even if you are good at it. Public speaking isn’t an easy thing to do, just you know…FYI. I did it…but I really didn’t want to do it, but to sometimes get from here to there…it came as part of the job and “other duties as assigned.”
IF you wanted to get ahead by chasing the grade and that was the one constant thing with me during my career. I guess you could say I was a whore? There was never any question of what I was, the only question was….how much were they going to pay me for doing the things they wanted me to do for them?
Oh…but I will give you a heads up regarding what I think it is like to be a Burn Boss of a planned prescribed fire.
It is like somebody handing you a revolver with one (1) bullet loaded in a six bullet cylinder (the typical revolver has a six bullet. cylinder, but there are some with five (5). seven (7), or even as many as nine (9).
And then telling you that they are going to spin the cylinder you have to put the revolver to your head and pull the trigger once.(which is commonly called Russian Roulette).
And every time you give the green light to ignite the prescribed fire again…you have to once again put the revolver to your head and pull the trigger after the cylinder has been randomly spun.
And every time you don’t blow your brains out…you get to keep living. That’s your reward. You get to keep your job and come in again the next day because you are still alive.
And if you just happen to hit on the chamber with the live round one of those times…well your life and career as you knew it is over.
Sound like fun? Now you know why all FIRE managers who have a normal instinct for survival would prefer to go their entire careers without ever playing Russian Roulette by green lighting a prescribed fire ignition. And to force most of them to do it…you have to beat them like they are rented mules.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OuGSXflBoWU
Oh…and even if you are a great instructor who does a great job of instructing, it is almost always a thankless job except for when you finally shut up and let the students who you are trying to teach go on break, go to lunch, or leave for the day and then they silently thank you inside their heads.
Except for when you have students like Joy…she probably buttonholes all of her instructors with additional comments or questions so that they don’t even get to go to the bathroom, get lunch or get home at a reasonable hour. 😂
I am training to be an instructor this year so I can see how it feels to be on the other side so I know both sides as a student and instructor as I push forward. I cannot speak for all instructors but there was a few who stated I intimidate them with my Wildland Fire knowledge and history of it. I am not in this to intimidate so I signed up to learn to teach and instruct to see how they come to that conclusion especially one of the top in the weather field said watch out world because if this housewife hiker can fix my software glitch and I am the best of the best, step aside he said because he said that is my future. Odd thing I got an email for precourse work and I did it but my instructor was on the YHFire…now that’s a small world…I am home Gary recovering from an injury…fun huh. My gosh it was great spending time with you on Christmas 🎄 (hee hee) even if it was your video out of breathe 👍
Okay…just one more random thought on the subject of training. And I hate to be the guy who always says law enforcement training is so great but FIRE training really sucks.
But the fact is by comparison to FIRE training…law enforcement training is really great and FIRE training sucks. And of course there’s a really good reason for that…money.
But that isn’t the most important reason, the most important reason is because a succession of top U.S. Forest Service managers like Shawna Legarza have taken the easy way out as they have followed the path of least resistance.
And now to FIX it, they would have to admit they (as an agency and WF community writ large) have done just about everything wrong for decades now, And they want to hit the reset button and start all over with one giant do-over.
Sonny actually instinctively knew what the problem is and he not only correctly identified the problem, but he told us exactly how to fix it many years ago…many times.
But everyone including me just ignored him. Most of you ignored him because you didn’t know he was right…I ignored him because his instinctive and correct solution isn’t feasible and will never probably happen because the WF agency managers, primarily the U.S. Forest Service, lack the will to fight in Congress for it.
The American people would probably support his idea if somebody just took the time to explain the problem to them. Because right now, the American people don’t even know there’s a problem, much less that the problem could be fixed for what in the big scheme of things would be a rounding error in the national budget.
If they were to hire me as an outside consultant, I could fix the problem for them by writing a white paper proposal that would consist of a single sentence.
“Okay…from now on we are going to conduct FIRE training based on mimicking Law Enforcement training as closely as we can but we will change key words where it is appropriate to do so, e.g., we will change “gun” to the appropriate wildland firefighting too, since there isn’t any need to reinvent the wheel so to speak. (Okay…it was one really long sentence, but you probably get the idea).
Additional details to follow.
Part 1,
My reference to coloring inside the lines is a metaphor that conjures up an image of a coloring book for children. What I am referring to without using a metaphor is following all of the principles outlined in the 10, the 18 and LCES, in addition to every other principle of safe and efficient wildland firefighting tactics and strategies that can only be described as fighting fire by following “best practices.”
The specific problem I have with the 10 and the 18, is that they are to specific while being overly broad and repetitive at the same time. Which isn’t a very easy thing to do.
As a matter of fact to get there…it took subsequent generations of committee work piled on top of committee work like layers of slopped on paint to arrive at their current status when they started with a deeply flawed and very 1957ish premise in the first place in the apply named, “Report of Task Force to Recommend Action to Reduce the Chances of Men Being Killed by Burning While Fighting Fire. (Nothing was said about saving the women.)
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5393525.pdf
And don’t blame me for this draft copy, I can’t even find the final (which I have) report anywhere by using the Google Machine.
Followed up by the now equally outdated and succinctly named,
REPORT OF THE FIRE SAFETY REVIEW TEAM, MARCH 1967, A PLAN TO FURTHER REDUCE THE CHANCES OF MEN BEING BURNED WHILE FIGHTING FIRES
https://www.coloradofirecamp.com/fire-origins/1967-introduction.htm
Oh no. It wouldn’t take my comment because I had to many links in it and so I had to break it down into 3 parts and now I have lost the other two. I just spent at least a couple of hours writing that comment, there is no way I can reproduce it and I was on a roll.
Maybe it will eventually come out of “moderation.” I am devastated because everything I type out is so very important for everyone to be at least given the opportunity to read.
Bummer…man.
I will email JD, maybe he can find it…somewhere?
Oh…and one more thing. Can you tell that I have started working on my book again now that I have successfully relocated to be near world class medical facilities? Well I am. And I am still following my Standard Operating Procedure of publishing key concepts here on the thread so you won’t have to wait for my book to come out to have access to my words of wisdom. So…your welcome.
Man…I can’t believe I lost most of that comment. In just that one comment…I outlined how to fix everything that is wrong with the current wildland firefighter training program. Double bummer.
And can you tell that I am now apolitical (because the Democrats have pissed me off as much as Trump has) and I have mostly cleaned up my potty mouth? Well…I am and I have…mostly. I shot my TV the other day with. a Federal .40 Hydra-Shok and had to buy a new TV. I told the police when they came by that I heard the shot also but I couldn’t figure out where it came from either.
Oh…and I bet you noticed that I am following good OPSEC now by not revealing where I have relocated to as my new base of operations?
I mean…C’mon people, Joy has apparently gotten some death threats or at least they inferred death threats. YIKES,! And we all know she is tougher, smarter, better armed and I better shot than I am.
And speaking of death and this is really getting down in the weeds. But I’m sure it took an insider to notice the detail on the cartoon Death Head I posted the other day from the old WF training?
Not only did someone reproduce a Death Head complete with crossbones and flames…but they put a Bullard hard hat on top of the skull. I mean…that is classic attention to detail.
Back in the day, a WF was very cool if they wore either an aluminum short brim or round brim Bullard (name brand) hard hat with the ridges on top of it.
You couldn’t buy aluminum Bullard hard hats even in my day because they had already gone to plastic ones as every other manufacturer had. That was probably because of safety reasons (like in lightning storms) and insurance liability. But we didn’t pay any attention to that nonsense.
The only way to get an aluminum one was to dig through the old fire caches in out of the way places, or find one at a garage sale, flea market or junk store.
Or…have it issued to you one like I was when I first started in 1974 and then I just kept it to use again the next year when i left the Prescott and went on to the Mighty Coconino.
All of the GMIHC were wearing plastic Bullards. And I immediately noted that both Marsh and Steed were wearing red ones whereas everyone else wore black ones. I didn’t need a different colored hard hat to tell everyone I was in charge once I became crew boss. All they had to do was look at how I carried myself and my command presence and they immediately knew who was calling the shots on that crew. Yep, still got it…hotshot crew boss hubris.
There were some giant A-hole Overhead who had their aluminum Bullards chromed. And your name would go down down in hotshot folklore if you managed to steal a chrome dome and put a giant Pulaski hole in it while crushing a good portion of it at the same time.
You never knew a one way conversation about hard hats could be so fascinating or informative did you? Don’t even get me started on writing about Whites or I won’t get anything done for the rest of tonight and most of tomorrow.
Oh…and one more thing…Bullards are by far far the most common hard hat worn by wildland firefighters and the difference between the aluminum and plastic hardhats was more than just style, although that was most of it.
Those damn plastic hardhats are much heavier than the aluminum ones and after shifts of to 36-48 hours long (at least on the first shift of a campaign fire) that extra weight can make a difference on your neck. Especially if you have a pencil neck…which isn’t one of my problems.
Plus…the plastic ones just look goofy as all get out. The best way I can describe the difference is by seeing the difference between how a red neck hillbilly White Trailer Trash cracker like me wears a cap and how either inner city youth or Japanese men visiting the Grand Canyon (and other places in Merida, but mostly the Grand Canyon) were their caps.🧢 Everything is EXAGGERATED on the plastic Bullards.
Gee…I hope none of that was racist or xenophobic? If it was that certainly wasn’t my intention and I sincerely apologize for my poor choice of words.
That should be ‘Merica.
‘Mer·i·ca
/ˈmerəkə,ˈmərəkə/
nounHUMOROUS•US
America (used especially to emphasize qualities regarded as stereotypically American, such as materialism or fervent patriotism).
“over here in ‘Merica we do what we want”
Gary,
Thanks for the links. I’ve now read 2 USFS safety reviews from 1957 & 1967 that were both apparently meant to address the issue of firefighter fatalities by being burned on wildfires. It’s now almost year 2020. Since 63 years have elapsed since the first of your 2 studies you posted links to, and we are still not only continuing to lose firefighters by being burned while working on the fire, in 2013 we lost almost an entire type 1 hotshot crew, what seems to be the problem?
If your answer is that you think we need to form a committee and publish a study, I think I’m going to lose my mind…
And…if someone comes in here and claims it’s “inevitable” I’m going ape shit up in here… (exaggeration for effect, not really going to happen. I’m just going to laugh at you & judge you as one with superficial intellect, unable to think with an open mind) 🙂
JD just needs to recover my lost post because I explain it all in detail and give specific examples. But the bottom line is this. Most WF training mostly sucks.
Oh…and because of hotshot hubris. Specifically hotshot crew boss hubris.
Cool me down because I am hot enough tonight to be @#$&% and I am on a roll!
And all joking aside, of course I don’t really have the answer to that complex question other than most WF training mostly sucks. Some is great…most isn’t. And there isn’t enough uniformity, standardization or oversight in any of it. In addition to of course hotshot (crew boss, mostly) hubris and the bold WF culture that has been painstakingly developed over more than the last 100 years.
But…that being said, I would START with the three most important things that are the cornerstone and foundation for everything literally everyone does…whether it is commercial fence building or open heart surgery.
1. Training
2. Training
3. Training
And not by either making new WF safety lists to learn by rote or adding to the ones that are already in use.
While I’m patiently waiting for your post to be recovered:
From the official USFS report on the 1966 Loop fire where 10 El Cariso hotshots were burned to death; here are the conclusions:
“CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS
Conclusions
Overall action from discovery to final control of the Loop Fire was generally good. Included in this action were some outstanding events in the evacuation of hospital patients, the rescue of the survivors of the Chimney Canyon accident and the coordination of a number of agencies involved in control of the fire and rescue operations.
From all that can be determined at this time, there was no evidence of negligence, disobedience or carelessness in the Loop Fire control operation based on present standards and practices.”
Sound familiar? Feet of clay indeed.
Okay, we will definitely include deliberate, sustained, criminal, outrageous, blatant, fraudulent lies and deception, etc. After Action Reports Of Disaster Fires engineered primarily by the U.S. Forest Service at the highest levels to our short list of why things don’t appear to have gotten any better?
And just FYI…the original hotshot body count from the official report (which you must be referring to) is incorrect which took me a long time to figure out. I think it might be because two more El Cariso Hotshots died later from their burns at the hospital…I guess?
In addition…most of the rest of the crew suffered severe burns to varying degrees depending on where they were at in the crew line as they tried to scramble out of the death chute.
Although I do think the Loop Fire Investigative Report is in a category all by itself for all of the above reasons and a bunch more. I’m pretty sure they never imagined the rise of the Goggle Machine?
But heck, apparently the authors of the Battlement Creek, South Canyon and even Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster didn’t either…I guess? It’s either that or they get very high marks for brazenness and they just don’t care what we or anyone else thinks of them…I guess?
And if JD can’t see my comment on his machine just sitting patiently waiting ti be moderated I will try my best to recreate it. But I really can’t promise anything because I was on a tear. It would be like asking Michelangelo to reproduce David because the cleaning person accidentally knocked it over and broke off his…some body parts. Michelangelo could try I’m sure…but there could only be one David…am I right.?
I mean…that is just how insightful my comment on why the very bedrock foundation of WF training is so deeply flawed and why if it is not THE problem, why it definitely is at the top of my short list,
Merry Christmas everyone!
Merry Christmas Bill.
I’m on my moms tablet.
Long travels..
Not near my email or blog for a few weeks.
Rest for me.
On Christmas day when James Lovell rounded the Moon, he said Please be informed there is a Santa Claus but it was astronaut Walter Schirra the first to use Santa Claus for a code word while on the Mercury 8 mission to refer to extraterrestrial craft. So you can truly believe in Santa Claus because the astronauts are at the top of the list of America’s finest heroes– they will not lie to you even if they have to speak in code.
For those that make light of extraterrestrial beings you might want to do some research on the revelations of some people you would be highly unlikely to challenge the veracity of their statements and revelations.
John Podesta, former chief of staff for Bill Clinton and advisor to Barack Obama stated “I am skeptical about many things, including the notion that government always knows best and that people can’t be trusted with the truth. The time to pull the curtain back on the alien presence on the Moon subject is long overdue. We have statements from the most credible sources. Those in possession to know about a fascinating phenomenon, the nature of which is to be determined.”
Dr John Brandenburg at a top secret viewing with Admirals and Generals present stated we were watching what appeared to be a firefight on the Moon. A General turned to me and said “Where do you think they are from”. I replied I don’t know. “I have heard they are from 40 light years from here.”,.
I pulled this information from a documentary titled ALIEN MOON., something I had found on the Tubi free documentaries. Scientists know that the moon is about 3.3 density while Earth is at 5.5. The Moon can only be hollow at that density and if it were not, it would not be able to sustain that perfect orbit.
But I won’t ruin your documentary viewing and I have a feeling that some will start to believe in Santa Claus after the viewing.
You there will have the talks of a number of influential people–none are kooks–not even Carl Sagan, nor the geologist that taught geology to the astronauts–Farouk El-Baz and others involved in these Moon missions.
Joy, you might enjoy that one–and send the info to your Mom–I know she would appreciate.
yes my mom is the sci-fi gal not me.
Merry Christmas Sonny
If these Govt Agencies claim to have this much information on everyone and everything, then they would certainly have relevant YH Fire data as well
An effective alternative to mass surveillance | William Binney | TEDxBerlinSalon
But nobody saw this coming …
( https://youtu.be/LufSe8-50-s )
Living in a surveillance state: Mikko Hypponen at TEDxBrussels
( https://youtu.be/lHj7jgQpnBM )
Sobering
Are you setting the stage to a future post of mine
I prefer to talk next about cell phone records of Willis…or the destruction to a home by loading damaged dozer on lo boy trailer…maybe Donut could fill in some areas there…
How did the dozer get damaged?
Have a Merry Christmas world 🌎
For Gary: 🎄🎁☃️🌧
Oh yeah … Donut let go of Yarnell and the memories … he just makes new kinds to honor the men:
https://youtu.be/koPWspJRz9M
He told me it’s my job to do this…
Job and a Joy don’t match
Unless you mean the one from the Bible…then I always been the female version.
I have a question … how come politics play so much in the Wildland Fire Industry?
a pal of yours Sonny sent me this:
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/there-are-more-300-us-military-bases-possible-toxic-forever-chemical-contamination
Hundreds of military installations have either known or likely water contamination caused by runoff from firefighting foam used in response to vehicle and aircraft accidents, according to the Environmental Working Group.
“Of these sites, 138 have not been previously identified on EWG’s map of known PFAS contamination at military bases, civilian airports and industrial sites,” according to a Tuesday new release.
“In addition, 42 of these sites were not included on a list of 401 locations the Pentagon gave to Congress of active and former installations where PFAS contamination was known or suspected.”
It would also require that military firefighters are testing for PFAS levels in their blood, as the chemicals do not break down over time and are known to build up in the human body.
https://www.ewg.org/interactive-maps/2019-pfas-crash-training-military-sites/map/
I am glad to see the media is doing a little to expose the Veteran experiments–so many of us had been used as lab rats including put next to Hydrogen Bombs, various vaccines to see their effects, use of agent orange, LSD experiments by CIA undercover operatives, depleted Uranium bullets, and the list goes on. The fire foam is a new one, but the warriors that fight the fires are more exposed even than veterans. Yet the families suffer as well since the illness extends to everyone–caring for sick veterans is not easy and even the families have to contend with polluted waters and whatever ill effects these chemicals cause.
One of the major problems is that the chemical corporations have put millions into the propaganda to make people believe these chemicals are harmless, yet with all the hundred years and billions put into fighting cancer and heart issues the disease rates have only been increased. Well what do you expect when these things are touted as harmless and dumped in thousands of gallons on residential areas such as we saw in Yarnell with the subsequent drastic increase in illness and death in the village. But what the hell, your friendly Forest Service and Wild Fire Manager will tell you the orders are going to help save your town and are harmless to you and the environment regardless of what happens in the aftermath of his toxic work. But he believes it, or at least acts like he does. I do not know how he sleeps well if he has any conscience at all–but then the doctors have chemicals to put you to sleep with temporarily unlike the retardants that work on a permanent basis.
So, thanks for the article–it shows that a few are beginning to admit tot he disastrous effects of these retardant chemicals and health. The Feds might even come to realize that the Firefighter deserves some financial reimbursement for the ongoing and eventual destruction of his health from being exposed to these toxins.
Of course it will take a Senator or Representative that is not bought into office by these giant chemical corporations to get the law proposed and slim chance unless the Media steps up that it will be ratified. A couple New Mexico Senators have reintroduced the proposal for Uranium miners that had years after the 75 date–and some do try. But getting something through Congress is tough when you know the corporations buy them in. It is not that the Corporations pay, but the tax payer but the corporations do not want it publicized that their shit is poison to the people and environment.
We have to depend upon Investigative Media and small similar Media, Internet and word of mouth to do anything. But if enough people become knowledgeable of the toxic problems and even hidden chemicals in retardant dumps some of these politicos will have to get off their ass and propose something to remedy the damages.
Sometimes I think it is like the man standing in front of a tank we saw in China–small wonder the tank driver did not squash him but I wonder what beating that fellow got afterward and if he survived. Only in America might we escape such despotism, yet we saw much subterfuge even at a death coverup at Yarnell.
Thanks to Joy on that article. I would hope on her site she would start putting up some UFO photos. You might say this is crazy stuff–or even that it is anti-religious, but what if these UFO’s are really government made? You can always use that as a front to save your religious beliefs but I have to believe that men like Buzz Aldrin, Edgar Mitchell, Gordon Cooper, Scott Carpenter, Clark McClellan, Niel Armstrong, James Lovell of Apollo 8 mission, Frank Borman, and lord have mercy even Russian astronauts Viktor Afanasyev and his partner either witnessed unexplainable craft dogging them in flight or in the case of Clark McClellan who in a supervisory position had monitored 650 NASA launchings and witnessed a craft in orbit right behind the shuttle with what appeared to be an 8 to 9 ft tall being talking to the astronauts tethered to the Shuttle –with what he says are six other witnesses–then I am beginning to believe there is more to this UFO-alien talk than our CIA and Army black ops under the highest National Secrecy clearance want us to know. I do think there are con artists out there trying to make a buck or get famous by their stories, but these American heroes now retired from NASA do not need the notoriety or the money by risking their reputations by putting out false statements.
I am more inclined to believe in their later years they want the public to know exactly what their tax dollars paid for–information they did not get about many things in space that those men knew, encountered and were ordered to keep their mouths shut about. Add to that the many hundreds of pilots and thousands of other reputable reports and one has to think about this–and why are our moon photos vetted, why are the astronauts sworn like your wild land fire fighter to keep their mouths shut? Why is the tax payer that puts these lunks in office so treated as nobodies?
Well I have been watching some UFO activity that arrives from out of Mexico and comes into the states at night traveling north from Juarex-EL Paso but skirting the White Sands Missile Range while some accompany some set in a fixed position for hours and some go almost directly west. That was the story on five last night. The one was stationary for some time I got a photo with this new 83x Nikon Coolpix 900P camera. These must be huge since when I can’t bring it up all the way to 83X or I get only a part of the craft. But what I have is circular and it has a dark inner ring so I do not thing I am looking at an orb per se but the bottom of a circular craft. I tried to make a video when it started going north and also of the one going West. I did get the one going west when it stopped on what appeared to be the Florita Range then the damn thing came straight back to look like it was going to come directly over my trailer. I did get a photo on its way back but me, cameras, and the new fumbling around in the dark technology are tough. The think blacked out just after my photo half way between my location and the Floritas where it landed and reversed. Yet looking at what I have is amazing and unexplained.
Well what might be interesting around El Paso and Juarez? That is one hell of a big testing base and Holloman Air Force with all the testing and technical works around Alamogordo as one Physicists told me when I was logging 16 miles up the mountain in the Cloudcroft area–you would not live in this town if you knew what was here. Well I don’t live there now but over the mountain some 90 miles as the crow flies from the town, though pretty near (about 27 miles from the base boundary that I believe stretches some 400 miles north near Albuquerque. I do know the Army has tunnels into the mountain near that edge–maybe they have a few MRE’s stored there and some ammo since the entrances will allow tank entry.
I though well the Mexicans are not real happy with the US so wondered why the government might be hanging in the sky above Mexico? They do have jet fighters and missiles on them but nothing like US and there is one famous photo where their jets a few years back when we were more friendly with Mexico were using American technology and had turned in photos of 11 circular craft following them on a drug surveillance job. Radar detected those yet only the infrared cameras on board were able to photograph them. That event was released by the Mexican Defense Department and on Sunday it is still sometimes brought up on Mexican TV by Jaime Maussan–long time researcher of UFO activity and with a long running Mexican UFO program on Sundays.
Juarez is the murder capital of the world right now. In the past 11 years they have averaged 1357 deaths per year–by August of this year there were already 889 deaths–mostly drug war related. 2010 had 3,042 deaths, more than the twin towers that year and 2,658 the year before–so looks like the killing has come down some. I used to go there fairly regularly importing agates out of Mexico by pick up. But now, not advisable place to hang out. Conversely right across the border in El Paso–the safest place in the USA–they even saved my life at the trauma center–only an average of 16 homicides per year over the past 11 and only 5 the year that 3042 died right across the border. Are the UFO’s looking at that and the Missile Range activities? Your guess is as good as mine.
But the reason for the drug wars is mostly hard drugs that here people can only get at a high cost from doctors if they will even prescribe them. Those bastards killing their own kind and anyone in their way for selling drugs can be stopped in their tracks–it is all about poor people wanting to survive or get rich.. And mostly the gringos are the problem since they are the market.
A drug addict will go to all lengths to get his drug–when will we realize this is just another government scam sort of like the retardant scam? Those amphetamines and cocaine supplies can be offered freely by our tax dollars much much cheaper than the cost of drug enforcement costs and prison costs by simply providing the addict with his drug. It will stop the killing and stop the drug cartels since there will be no market or their suspect drugs will no longer be purchased when they are provided free. Folks, most of these addicts can not help themselves–and we need to own up to providing drugs and treatment facilities where the addict can find safe areas to either continue his addiction for a time or find treatment.
I have counseled and managed a half way house for drug addicts–I am not a drug addict nor ever have been but I do know the horrors these people live and the horrors they put their families and friends into. The solution is not spending billions on drug enforcement and ruining people’s lives by making felons out of them and incarcerating them for long periods only to see them return to their habit.
Despite what law enforcement wants you to believe and the billions they receive to “fight the drug war” that only increases in volume despite their efforts and what the prison system loves–like the fire fighting system–it can be remedied but truth needs to be out there. Education is freedom from false ideas and ways and simple methods can be taken to stop the drug war insanity.
So now you can add me to the Astronaut nuts that say they were dogged, that there were beings on the moon before us, that UFO’s and aliens are real. Trump constantly rails against aliens across the border. But I have photographic proof despite my inept camera ways and I think i was even able to date the times of the photos correctly. This thing has a GPS as well once I figure it out.
I do have a mind to visit the Las Cruces Sun News–a place I am well known as the guy that was shot by his dog. Now it will even get crazier when I show the photos and a small news paper might just print the photos. People just do not look up–but for some reason these things do not appear in daylight at least yet–I will keep this camera handy and if they do I hope to get a big alien smile.
Happy trails and don’t accept any UFO rides–they do nasty things to humans according to some very reputable reports. I do believe however–there are not that many of these thing around so your chances of abduction are slim.
Firefighting?–can you imagine having one of these things that can deliver a half million gallons of sea water at a time in a few seconds and can sit and observe a forest for hours, days or months by beings that might not even be biological entities? It would guarantee a wild fire control system without retardant.
Two Aussie Firefighters Die During Wildfires
Two Australian volunteer firefighters were killed during the nation’s current wildfire emergency when their apparatus struck a tree and rolled off the road. Firehouse online – December 20, 2019
( https://www.firehouse.com/lodds/news/21118954/two-australian-firefighters-killed-during-new-south-wales-wildfires?utm_source=FH+Newsday&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS191220029&o_eid=5668G1183545G6J&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C5668G1183545G6J&oly_enc_id=5668G1183545G6J )
“The volunteers were in a fire truck travelling in a convoy near the town of Buxton on Thursday night when the vehicle hit a tree and rolled off the road, the New South Wales (NSW) Rural Fire Service (RFS) said.
Earlier on Thursday, three firefighters were injured with burns after their truck was overrun by a bushfire in the same area. Additionally, two firefighters were treated by paramedics for smoke inhalation.
Fire and Rescue NSW duty commander Kernin Lambert called the blaze “a horrendous fire.”
“Around the Balmoral village, we had two fire fronts come together and they merged. We were experiencing firestorm-type conditions,” he told Australian broadcaster ABC on Friday.
And then there is this author’s fauz pax – “ come together and they merged ” tautology and maybe they can add these to their list ( http://www.pilinutpress.com/EditingReference/Tautologies.html )
“Lambert said crews faced winds over 100 kilometres per hour with 60-metre-high fire fronts so fierce they sucked the oxygen out of the air.”
Pretty serious bushfire conditions Down Under and may these Vollies RiP
Gary L Olson is a pure artist.
Keep being the “Guiding Light” sir
Here is Tex’s notification sent to CDC: Hopefully it will spark an interest in the Yarnell extreme count of dead and ill after the Yarnell inundation by retardant.
CDC contact by email as follows—
It is my understanding that you investigate environmental deaths concerning American citizens. My concern is about the people in Yarnell, Arizona, because in my studies concerning the aftermath of two wild fires–the Yarnell Wildfire of June, 2013 that killed the 19 Granite Mountain Hot Shot Crew and the Tenderfoot Fire of June, 2016. The aftermath of those two fires has seen the population originally of 645 to be reduced by about 200 deaths withing 6.5 years. Many are sick as well. I myself with a heart attack in 2015 and several since.
Because the town was heavily inundated and surrounded by many loads of the Phos Chek retardant and trade secret hidden chemicals, I believe obviously related to the skewed illness and death rate of the Yarnellites. I do know that phosphates have killed hundreds of thousands of fish especially in Florida from mine pollutant leaks an that of 20,000 killed in the Fall River, Oregon incident from only about a 1000 gallons of retardant.
The average per 650 residents should be about 6 deaths per year for USA. Here we are looking at something around 30 per year. Granted these are deaths are for mostly elderly such as myself at Yarnell, yet many are in their 50’s and souls I knew to be robust individuals before the inundation of Yarnell with the retardants.
I also know that legionnaires disease was found to be specific to elderly and those with taxed immune systems.
If this has not been an experiment then it should be looked at closely to see that these retardants are kept far from residential areas if they must be used. It is well known that they have created ocean dead zones from the phosphates and nitrates that feed the red algae. But very little has been done to see what these chemical are doing to health.
For more reference there are excellent posts on the matter Yarnell Hill Fire Investigative Media Chapter 29 and Joy Collura’s website (friend and knowledge of all deceased. Thanks for your interest, Tex Gilligan
For those not familiar with CDC, they are one of our public health protection agencies employed by the Federal Government to look into problems of health involving disease and environment and related issues.
I was amazed to find they had even published a paper on how to protect yourself in case of a Zombie Apocalypse. Few realize there is technology to turn people–possibly masses into Zombies and where there is technology to use such, we know there is always a Hitler psychotic type that may eventually attain and use it. After all, Truman had no qualms using the Atom Bomb and Hitler did sacrifice millions of his own to try to attain his goals.
My understanding is there are at least three ways it can be done. The Zombies are made by poisonous herbs and poisonous aquatic life extractions. Technology uses radiation ray techniques and biological methods through virus spreading. This stuff is real and documented in people actually attacking and eating their own kind–a lady decapitating and eating parts and the brain of her baby–a man in Florida attacking a homeless guy and eating his face away stopped only by a cop’s bullet and of course documented Zombies in Haiti. So yes, there are some very advanced technologies and possibilities of virus outbreaks that are real when people such as CDC have concerns enough to address them.
Perhaps my endeavors to understand why officials and even the public to deny the fact evident concerning the deaths of 19 young hot shots at Yarnell may be in vain–but human curiosity and desire makes me want to understand how something so blatant as the reason for those deaths not being an accident.
So looking at other government agencies might give us a clue. One thing is the military There is probably not a single one of us whom have served that would not return and serve this nation again if we were threatened here at home by invading foreign forces. We would, along with most citizens, just as the early revolutionists under George Washington did, be willing to sacrifice it all for the protection of our freedom and rights that this country has even at their diluted state thanks to Bush and others they are in today. Most of us are still loyal to the country and see that the New World Order thing is no more than an extension of what Hitler wanted and attempted causing the loss of millions of lives. Lives were a high loss for that attempt, and the new attempts are still loosing lives at planned and instigated wars such as Afghanistan, Iraq and the ongoing Terrorist thing. The constitution in the New World Order thing is out the window and as Bush once said–it has no relevance.
Certainly to a New World Order Charter it has no relevance yet we as Americans have seen so many millions of heroes defend the flag with their lifeblood and for which it stands that we see much relevance to the freedoms the Constitution and its Bill of Rights protections to citizens guarantees us. Certainly after the Twin Tower ordeal the Patriot Act (what brainwasher made up the term?) we had our freedoms minimized right to the edge of martial law that I saw at Yarnell right after Fema took over in the aftermath of the fire. The press was censored, the roads were blocked for months allowing only green carded residents to use State Highway 89, and even mum orders were officially given to firefighters involved and even individuals present that heard and witnessed things. Joy and I were not censored–we were not state employees other than we were empoyed as all citizens duly paying our state taxes—and there are many on fuel, groceries, paychecks and so on.
But what is so amazing to my way of thinking is that people in Yarnell for a big part were so happy to go along with the government abuse of first amendment rights.
There is a psychology to understand that and a good place to look is the prison system. Once these people are trained long they will often times commit crimes just to get back into the system–they can no longer function independently. So it is with the citizen–we have lived under the thumb so long we willingly give our rights over to Big Brother to bring in his enforcers to insure we have our green cards, the press is denied access, right of passage and highways closed and freedom and right of free speech is hindered, even legally to those that want to tell the story as it was and not the script handed down from higher command.
I think what few people know is that wild land fires ultimately fall under National Security and the US Army. That came about by legislation after the Japanese started attempting to start wild fires by sending incendiary devices over in air current by balloons. A few actually landed in the Oregon area but did no damage.
So now who wants to take on the Army? The Army could not have stopped the Yarnell Fire, and the military training of the GMHS crew failed in their instance or rather they failed in the proper performance of their duties yet they did not fail in Strictly obeying orders on a daily basis. If the Captains say charge that is what you should do. Disobeying orders can get you a court martial and desertion the firing squad.
And how about the retardant situation? Retardants are provided by giant corporate groups including Chemical companies such as Monsanto as well as huge mining corporations that provide the phosphates and nitrates. These companies can drop a million dollars like some of you do a hundred on watching the Stealers or Cowboys get their ass kicked or not. Their pleasure in profits come at a similar cost as your pleasure in watching a game does.
I may be wrong on the football figure–maybe my son said more like $500 for a game–yet the ratio is about the same.
The idea is they can control politics, media, men/women in charge of such operations as wild land fires and if they do not want something presented as it really happened then it will not happen. And after all why deprive the public of the beautiful orange retardant dumping–it is like a Fourth of July event that all want to see.
So things are really compartmentalized to the point there is not much allowed except need to know categories. For instance Donut did not need to know why he was stationed below the grader and he did not bother to ask or why he was abandoned there out of sight from the crew even though he was the designated look out. And he was a nice simple fellow willing to strictly follow orders on a daily basis. Then he kept following orders like the secret ingredients in Phos Chek–you can not talk unless Papa allows and Papa did not. So the real story was squelched as far as he had any information to share. But like wise the Blue Ridgers and all other involved unless the Honchos with the ponchos first heard should you dare ask.
It kind of reminds me of the moon photos==never mind they can read a license plate from satellites in the air–those moon photos are presented even closer to be out of focus and grainy–yet there are photos presented with extreme clarity. Since the Army also owns NASA, the moon photos are first vetted before presentation to the public. Do they have any good reason? Some very competent and respected people say they are in the habit of brushing out structures there as well as UFO’s that the Astronauts nearly all say dogged them throught out their journeys in space. Of course the astronauts are under strict orders to remain mum–but they have not after retirement.
I can see how the Army can keep down information for Security reasons about moon flights. Maybe this country would go ape shit like they did when HG Wells portrayed an alien invasion by radio. And what about religious people, what will it do to their ideas if you have structures there and alien craft and aliens hanging around the moon? The Feds, even Fema would have their hands full and people would be highly disgruntled knowing that officials knew but held back the truth.
But with wild fire deaths–it is not National Security–or is it? What is really going on that a lightening strike is allowed to burn and thousands of gallons are ordered to be dumped on a small village with toxic chemicals? I do not see much we can do about it, or that much will change–the system has its agenda, purpose and plausible cause to bend the facts.
we go through life doing some things to try to understand what is behind it all–then you look at natural things, the dog, the quail, birds, animals in the wild and you see how damn contented they are never complaining and smiling when there is plenty and on the move when not trying to forage–but just accepting things as they are. That is what humans got away from–and you will say some of your best memories were living among nature and where life was not dealing with the bullshit and Riff Raff. People would say I have a boring life, and can’t understand how I detest city living and the control issues there. I like the natural thing but then I am not hooked by a job to do unless I want to do it. I do think there will be soon a big catastrophe brought about on purpose because the real powers of the world are seeing that the population of earth is getting too big for them to manage and besides they only need so many slaves at their bidding.
Do what you need to do –maybe not what you want to do–but even the CIA always has plausible reason. This is the bold New World Order and Bush, Trump, etc. and company and their masters are smiling off their golf courses somewhere saying ain’t it great. And I say ain’t it great I ain’t one of those turds.
Reply to joy a collura post on December 15, 2019 at 6:00 pm
>> joy a collura said…
>>
>> https://youtu.be/C65FcpAi_-4
>>
>> At 5:34 of the video- who took the video and what is the metadata…
The video clip inside of that ‘Weather Channel’ video that begins at +5:34 is in the original SAIT ‘Photos and Video’ public evidence folder.
It’s in the Blue Ridge Hotshots photos and videos folder, under the subfolder named ‘Mccord’, and it has a filename of “yarnell 081.MOV”.
It is one of the videos shot by the Blue Ridge Hotshots when they were ‘staged’ in the Sesame clearing area, just south of where the GM Crew Buggies were parked.
It was taken at 10:46 AM, just a few minutes after the Blue Ridge Hotshot crew carriers had arrived there at the top of the Sesame clearing and parked just south of where the GM crew carriers were already staged.
Some of the metadata embedded in that ‘Mccord’ video is as follows…
————————————————————————————————————
File Name: yarnell 081.MOV
Camera Make: NIKON
Camera Model: COOLPIX S01
Video Duration: 0:00:30 ( seconds )
Creation Date/Time: June 30, 2013 – 10:46:27 AM
———————————————————————————————————–
Here is a link to the video clip itself that was used in that Weather Channel video…
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Mccord / yarnell 081.MOV
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAA6NfZNgzsJRCDEtQXdUR-La/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Mccord?dl=0&preview=yarnell+081.MOV&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
>> joy a collura also asked…
>>
>> …and is that Eric Shane Marsh or a GMHS
>> past the buggy in the bush to the right?
No.
That ‘dark feature’ you are referring to in the video clip is not a person.
It’s simply the dark trunk of a small tree, or a dark piece of vegetation, or some combination of both.
That same ‘dark feature’ is clearly seen in MANY other photos and videos taken at various times at that same location where the GM crew carriers were ‘staged’ at the top of the Sesame clearing area.
I will follow this post with some ‘Replies’ that contain direct links to many of the other photos and videos showing this same ‘dark feature’ at that exact location.
Followup…
The same ‘dark feature’ seen in that Blue Ridge Hotshot ‘Mccord’ video is also seen clearly in another video shot a few hours later by Blue Ridge Hotshot ‘Desoto’
It’s pretty clear in THIS ‘Desoto’ video that the ‘dark feature’ there in the bushes just beyond the GM crew carriers is NOT a ‘person’.
Blue Ridge Hotshots Photos and Videos – Desoto Folder
————————————————————————————————
File Name: yarnell-desoto 003.MOV
Camera Model: iPhone 4S
Camera Make : Apple
Content Create Date: 2013:06:30 13:40:19-07:00 ( June 30, 2013 1:40:19 PM )
Video Duration: 26.07 seconds )
————————————————————————————————-
Video of a 1:40 PM retardant drop taken from exact same location as Weather Channel vide clip. Very sharp focus. Shows the ‘dark feature’ there just beyond the hoods of the GM Crew carrier.
The ‘Desoto’ Folder itself…
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Desoto
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAny7hds6QmhtPbhnpc9j0Ka/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Desoto?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Direct link to the Desoto video…
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Desoto / yarnell-desoto 003.MOV
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAny7hds6QmhtPbhnpc9j0Ka/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Desoto?dl=0&preview=yarnell-desoto+003.MOV&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
** Another still photo ( PNG photo ) in the same Desoto folder showing the
** same ‘dark feature’ there just beyond the GM crew carriers
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Desoto / yarnell-desoto 004.png
Filename “yarnell-desoto 004.png”
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAny7hds6QmhtPbhnpc9j0Ka/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Desoto?dl=0&preview=yarnell-desoto+004.png&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
** Another Desoto photo showing the same ‘dark feature’. there in the bushes…
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Desoto / yarnell-desoto 006.png
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAny7hds6QmhtPbhnpc9j0Ka/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Desoto?dl=0&preview=yarnell-desoto+006.png&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
** Yet another still photo ( PNG photo ) in Desoto folder showing same ‘dark feature’…
Filename “yarnell-desoto 007.png”
NOTE: This one has been ‘color enhanced’ and shows the same feature with higher contrast and resolution.
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Desoto / yarnell-desoto 007.png
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAny7hds6QmhtPbhnpc9j0Ka/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Desoto?dl=0&preview=yarnell-desoto+007.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
** Another photo showing the same ‘dark feature’ there in the bushes.
** This time it’s in the Blue Ridge Hoptshot Papich Folder
IMG_3952.JPG ( Taken at 12:20 PM on June 30, 2013 )
Matches what is seen in the Weather Channel video clip.
You can see right over the hoods of the GM Crew Carriers just like
the view at the start of the video clip above.
But this time, there are other vehicles parked just to the south of the GM buggies.
This photo was taken at the moment when that ‘meeting’ took place there at that
staging area between DIVZ Rance Marquez and the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
The time was 12:20 PM ( 20 minutes after NOON )
————————————————————————————–
File Name: IMG_3952.jpg
Camera Make: Apple
Camera Model Name: iPhone 4
Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 12:20:49
————————————————————————————–
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Papich / IMG_3952.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADuqXo3pgQkUJGLvRf_h3yLa/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Papich?dl=0&preview=IMG_3952.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
** Another Papich photo ( IMG_3948.jpg ) taken with a
** network-connected iPhone 4S smartphone at 10:40 AM on June 30, 2013.
This photo was taken at 10:40 AM, just 10 minutes after the Blue Ridge Hotshots had arrived at the north end of the Sesame clearing area and had parked their own crew carriers just south of where the GM crew carriers were already parked.
Photo IMG_3948.jpg shows the same perspective as the video clip. Same ‘dark feature’ there in the bushes on the left side of the photo and just beyond the front hoods of the GM Crew Carriers.
Link to the Blue Ridge Hotshot ‘Papich’ folder…
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Papich
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADuqXo3pgQkUJGLvRf_h3yLa/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Papich?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
Direct link to his IMG_3948.jpg photo…
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Papich / IMG_3948.jpg
—————————————————————————————
File Name: IMG_3948.jpg
Camera Make: Apple
Camera Model Name: iPhone 4
Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 10:40:20
—————————————————————————————
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADuqXo3pgQkUJGLvRf_h3yLa/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Papich?dl=0&preview=IMG_3948.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
** Also in the same Blue Ridge Hotshot Papich folder…
IMG_3953.mov
Another video clip taken from the same vantage point as that ‘Weather Channel’ clip.
He was filming one of the VLAT retardant drops out in the middle bowl.
This one’s a little blurry as compared to the other Blue Ridge Hotshot photos and videos, but it still shows the same ‘dark feature’ there in the bushes just north of the GM crew carriers.
SAIT / Photos and Videos / BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos / Papich / IMG_3953.mov
—————————————————————————————–
File Name: IMG_3953.mov
Make: Apple
Model: iPhone 4S
Creation Date: 2013:06:30 13:40:19-07:00 ( June 30, 2013 – 1:40 PM )
—————————————————————————————–
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADuqXo3pgQkUJGLvRf_h3yLa/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Papich?dl=0&preview=IMG_3953.mov&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
thank you for taking the time to “define” an area for someone- I am focused on part 3-5 posts so it was worth asking when it was brought to my attention yet I was busy elsewhere-
General and Belated Housekeeping:
This post is in response to a question asked by Sonny some time back. My father was killed August 8, 1958 (age 32) in a fall down an underground mine while working in the Kermac Nuclear Fuels mine near Ambrosia Lake, Northwest of Grants, New Mexico.
I want to express my deepest appreciation and gratitude to Sonny for all of the background information surrounding my father’s death that he has provided to me both here on this thread and in private on the back channel. And now I also want to thank Joy for adding some additional context with her comments on this thread. Before learning what both Sonny and Joy wrote, I didn’t know anything more than was contained in the short article on this page, some of which I know is incorrect.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/20518943/lee-merton-olson
For example, my father wasn’t a resident of Grants, New Mexico and Sonny has informed me that he couldn’t have been a shift foreman because they were all busted down old miners who worked for low wages. In addition, we lived at the mining camp near (or in) Ambrosia Lake and not in Grants.
And whoever named that Godforsaken piece of real estate Ambrosia Lake had a very twisted sense of humor since there hasn’t been a lake there for eons or probably much longer. That area is nothing more than an ugly, flat, wind swept, alkaline high desert that is freezing in the winter and burning hot in the summer. In addition to being an underground depository for uranium from millions of years ago when all of New Mexico was deep under an inland sea.
On a side note, the Grand Canyon was formed when this inland sea eventually joined the rest of the world’s oceans flowing down what is known now as the Colorado (Red) River and if you have never seen it up close, I would call it the Liquid Mud River. In my job with the BLM, I saw countless and absolutely fascinating petrified remains of many different Dinosauriformes and other animals that once thrived in the Four Corners region while working deep in the backcountry.
My older sister remembers she and I used to run around and collect leaflets dropped from an airplane that would occasionally fly over the mining camp where we lived in order to fold them up and stuff them in the gaps between the boards of the miners shack we lived in while paying exorbitant rental rates to Kerr – McGee, the evil parent corporation of Kermac Nuclear Fuels that was made infamous in the movie, “Silkwood.”
In addition…my father’s military service as a Marine during WWII, which is emphasized on his gravestone has nothing to do with his death except that the Veterans Administration paid for it, so they got to write his short epithet. Interestingly enough, my father wasn’t a miner any more than he was a heavy equipment operator, a logger, a cowboy, or a butcher, baker or candlestick maker. My father was a blue collar worker who had a family to support so he worked at relatively high paying but very dangerous jobs.
I am still reading this thread, I am just not posting because I don’t have anything new to add to the discussion. I know that hasn’t stopped me before, but I am now really focusing my efforts on what of course will be the greatest book ever written about wildland firefighters and hotshots in particular, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods.”
I am no longer writing a book about the Yarnell Hill Fire because I’m not qualified to do so and I am much to fragile and vulnerable as a person to withstand a withering book critique by WTKTT. HAL 9000 is the only one qualified to write that book which should only be written in a Case Report format rather than as a nonfiction book.
I will however, include a chapter or two about the biggest blunder in wildland firefighting history. And I pray to God we never have another one, but of course we will, because one time (the Loop Fire of 1966) is an anomaly, two times (the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976) is a coincidence, but three times is a pattern (the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013). God Bless America and wildland firefighters in particular! Amen.
Oh…and one more thing. If I don’t see you beforehand, I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas 🎄🎁 and a Happy 😃 New Year 🎉
🎊 🍾
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
I will see you during the Holiday Gary 🌲 🥶🏕⛰
See my tree there above
Needs help decorating 🙏
And last I knew you had the ⚽️ 🏀 🏈⚾️🏐🎱🥎🎾 ❄️🥴🤪👩🏼🚒⚒🗺
Gotta film ya 🎞 🤩🕵️♀️
I know .. I know
Retired means pension not tension but have you
seen how they are running the fire industry
👩💻👩🍳👩🌾 you can be just you…just keep living…
Seems everyone is dying off that was tied to Yarnell and it’s aftermath 🤯
True about AI9000🤖
Merrymaker you…thanks for the compliment about Sonny and me
and Wtktt but what about the woodsman and rts and bob powers
and Diane Lomas and rocksteady and norb and ttware etc..🎁🎉✝️🍾🎄☃️🌬
I was specifically thanking you and Sonny for the background information surrounding my father’s death some time back and those other people didn’t add to that body of work that I know of. And I admire your use of emojis!
Sonny of course provided most of the backstory of what it was like to work in those mines and even the very same mine my father was killed in years later, both on the thread and in private emails.
But you added some from when you were in Santa Fe way back downstream. (right? That was you wasn’t it?) I haven’t been able to read it all yet or very closely, but I will…eventually.
And as far as the FIRE industry goes, I want to wish them the best of luck because they have a lot of young peoples lives in their hands and I want to see everyone eventually get to where I am. Which is a state of contentment. Happiness is overrated, I just shoot for being content with occasional flashes of happiness. 😎
Oh…and one more thing. I have been really busy for the past several weeks relocating to have better access to medical facilities. And I can neither confirm nor deny that I am now living in Pattaya, Thailand. But if you look closely…you might see me in the background of this video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HmkKj2BSGxY
In the meantime…I am seriously considering pursuing Far Eastern religious studies in Mexico City. So…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VABCnLvze3I
That was the sad part of the Uranium Miner legacy. You see how his death report was posted on the back pages in a small notice. He should have been hailed on the front page–A Marine and Hero gives his life in the Uranium mines– Two honors and medallions earned by his ultimate sacrifice. It was that way because the Kerr McGhee and the Feds wanted to downplay any deaths concerning Uranium mining.
Kerr Mac started those mines in 1953 as I recollect–by 1958 they were deep mines indeed. My Dad could dig a 70 ft shaft in a few months by his old hand steel methods and windlass to pull the ore out–I know because I helped him do one that very depth. Those KerrMac shifts had about 300 men going down into that rat hole and the cage that went down had a cable that was 2 and half inch in diameter to hold. The cage had two levels of men, one above the other so that about 50 men were above or below you as you dropped down. So they dropped down about 100 men at a time and with several working levels and more than thirty miles of tunnel works you could see they were busy getting ore to the surface to get to the mill that stood out in the open an that desert plane and could be seen for miles as you passed it to go to Section 30. Kerr Mac made billions courtesy of the tax payer. Yet the miners and families that suffered loss of loved ones or injuries had to resort to legal action since they only concerned themselves with profits. Miners in later years got compensated if they turned up with cancer or Uranium listed diseases such as COPD and Lung issues–but the catch was that it had to be before 1975. My years were some before that time but most after that year so I did not make the grade even though I have the years in and cancer issues. And it turns out the tax payer, not Kerr Mac, United Nuclear, Standard Oil, Hamilton, or any of the other mine owners have to pay for subsequent health issued due to Uranium Mining. Aren’t these trillion dollar industrial giants grand?
The fight for Uranium Miner Compensation was long and arduous and took Congressional Approval –New Mexico Senators championed the legislation so miners, mill workers, people exposed in the Military and so on that wound up with expensive medical bills could get some compensation. If they update it for elgibility to go past 74 I will be elgible for $250,000 one time payment for having cancer and COPD related to mining that shit. There has been proposed legislation but it is never acted upon.
So hopefully you wild fire and other firemen will get some legislation–you all deserve at least 250 grand for having your life shortened and degraded health issues due to that retardant crap you are exposed to.
Uranium is almost double the weight of lead in equal volume and almost the same density as gold (19.3) but its hardness is at 6 on Mohs scale which means it is close to cast iron. But because it is dense and hard it was used in Iraq for penetrating bullets. It’s radiation is trapped by carbon in the lungs so that it remains until metastasizing the cells. Plutonium is associated with Uranium in the mines and later separated to make the Hydrogen bombs and also in powering satellites, etc. It is known that as much as 17 pounds may be in a satellite and Canada was one place where one scattered a goodly amount. These events are kept low key like the deaths of Uranium miners. Plutonium is touted to be the most toxic substance on earth. One atom of Plutonium in the lungs or skin is enough to start a cancer and a tiny bit killed the Russian Spy in England–closely related is Polonium 210, a rare thing only extracted in making the Hydrogen bombs.
None of the radioactive elements are good for health–and despite what they say about using depleted Uranium in bullets–a damned lie. Any extra radiation is dangerous and can cause ill effects to humans or animals.
They say that cancer has passed heart disease as the leading cause of death in fire fighters. Some study says that there is only a modest 14% cancer incidents in fire fighters over the national average. Who the hell does these studies and how can you call a 14% increase in deaths a modest thing? I swear these people do studies financed by the chemical and retardant companies and that is about 95 % true and any independent studies will be challenged by authorities.
You don’t need to be a lame brain to look at the histories of most long time fire fighters to know that the smoke and chemicals have done them all harm no more than you need to look at people that were down winders of the many nuclear bombs set off at Mercury site have high incidence of leukemia and other cancers including defective births. Yarnell is an excellent example of the lame brains not taking notice of how dangerous these chemicals are to human health–especially once the immune system gets taxed by age or other causes.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mazd2wv8u4ku9ds/AAChbobXnkLtpDTUfrFyjtGaa?preview=IMG_0412.JPG
what always bothered me about reviewing YH Fire photos was that investigators from both SAIT SAIR and ADOSH did not take the time in the interviews and make sense why people took this photo or that photo- even my own set. Dr. Ted Putnam, Charlie Moseley and Johnny Kirkley were the only people who did take that time on my set. If I was a parent or loved one I would have demanded it.
At 5:34 of the video- who took the video and what is the metadata and is that Eric Shane Marsh or a GMHS past the buggy in the bush to the right?
https://youtu.be/C65FcpAi_-4
Another one bites the retardant dust. Doug that we met and Joy interviewed for his witness to the Shine burn has pass in October–Joy just had informed me. Whew, who in Yarnell will be able to witness anything–kill them off with retardant, then who is to say anything?
The list goes on–I have been on and near registered to the list a few times thanks to those retardant dumps at Yarnell. You will do well to avoid the town, although hopefully by now the rains have washed away enough of the toxins.
I hope Raul and Teresa are OK, she was hanging in on a thread going from a vivacious person to home bound and ill with Raul also not so well within the year after the retardant dumps. This is part of the horrror story of Yarnell and due to the chemical destruction it has caused to the health of the people there.
Will the WHO or EPA investigate–don’t hold your breath unless you are in Yarnell–and if you can for two minutes breeze through and find safer air.
Maybe there were be a plaque placed there in memory of the Yarnellites used as Lab Rats to prove the danger of having retardant dumped profusely about your village. Add me to the list since I died once from its effects.
Look at the facts then form your opinion–you may agree with those I opine.
I should clarify–Doug was owner of the Grotto–thing that looked like a castle and he was atop his Grotto watching all the action–including who was using drip torches at the Shrine area–very near and just below the Shrine. There are two things that people always went to visit in Yarnall–one was the Shrine where full sized statues of Jesus and a nice trek up the mountain to a cross is and then the Grotto with rocks painted into animals on the way up.
Oddly the Shine buildings burned away except one and the stature of Jesus also had burning around it but not harmed. The Irish Gods might have been looking out for it. At any case, you don’t have to be a Catholic to visit the Shrine and it is a worthy trek–maybe leave a buck in the donation box for that lady that cares for the place if you feel like it. I don’t know if you can visit the Grotto now but at least get a photo–looks like a Spanish style small castle up on the side of the hill below the Shrine area. Easy road and not far off the main highway and you are within a mile and a half of the death zone of the 19.
So before I close it down for the night and do a good slug of triple distilled Irish Clontarf–Joy might post Doug’s age–I though him to be a young 60. But of course that area had heavy doses of retardant with all his hillside looking like an Vietnam agent orange zone. But what part of Yarnell did not get the look?
Happy trails–breath shallow in the orange zones..
h t t p s ://www.legacy.com/obituaries/ncenterprise-info/obituary.aspx?n=james-douglas-camblin-doug&pid=194444636
This is the Grotto owner you mentioned above where I took many to see a homeowners video/photos on June 30, 2013 of the Grotto angle of the Sesame to Shrine Corridor areas-
Yet there is ONE Northern Arizona Firefighter who was THERE on June 30, 2013 who never made it to the reports yet REACH ME- I know your story already but would like to fact check some stuff by you-
(4 8 0 ) 5 5 9-1 9 7 1
Finally! Posting both Parts 1 and 2 of our latest 2019 Applied Human Factors and Ergonomics (AHFE) posts. Please share as you see fit.
Part 1 of 5 – Underneath every simple, obvious story about human error,’ there is a deeper, more complex story – a story about the system in which people work. Will these formerly unrevealed public records change the account of what occurred on June 30, 2013?
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2019/11/28/Part-1-of-5—Underneath-every-simple-obvious-story-about-human-error%E2%80%99-there-is-a-deeper-more-complex-story—a-story-about-the-system-in-which-people-work-Will-these-formerly-unrevealed-public-records-change-the-account-of-what-occurred-on-June-30-2013 )
Part 2 of 5 – Underneath every simple, obvious story about human error, there is a deeper, more complex story – a story about the system in which people work. Will these formerly unrevealed public records change the account of what occurred on June 30, 2013?
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2019/12/15/Part-2-of-5—Underneath-every-simple-obvious-story-about-human-error-there-is-a-deeper-more-complex-story—a-story-about-the-system-in-which-people-work-Will-these-formerly-unrevealed-public-records-change-the-account-of-what-occurred-on-June-30-2013 )
Simply stated, Sonny, on your recent comments.
just archiving old data to new data – simple as that
before more folks die I want to ensure I documented some certain areas
It is a deep concern the slurry drops, indeed.
As far as reaching me to share – I am always there for that yet as far as a documentary … I will not be making a book or movie yet it is stimulating to talk documentary yet premature but it does perk my attention to maybe put some final areas that way.
I wanted your account again because you are key in this even if some are emailing me what is happening with all this UFO stuff and Sonny – until you meet the folks he use to know and know his pure path; it all just seems “odd” yet I stand by him in his paths he seen because there is witnesses too. People fail to remember- days before the fire CBS producer for film interviewed Sonny on THAT topic of his UFO moment and they took him very serious. It is just “different” and so many are awaiting people to TALK YARNELL like the areas still hidden.
I have to due to legal counsel and my good ethics head to my blog and redact a section on post 1.
Happy Bday again Sonny.
If a documentary was to be made- seems one would want all to know except people fail to remember there are folks in this who do not want the facts out so keep that in mind that-
If you want a documentary to happen then let God direct it and it does not even need others to produce it- we need the fresh real stories in its organic raw forms, Sonny…nothing made for profit.
Just pure people sharing … that is what is needed-
so if you are in that way of thinking then reach me and tell me more …
but I said that for years – nothing new there.
Of Course we do need a documentary and to some great degree there is one right here on Investigative media and supplemented with Joy’s Website we have plenty information that would change the way things are managed concerning wildfires, wild fire deaths, and retardant toxin dumping. Someone will hopefully organize and produce a movie that is not strictly about the lives of the GMHS crew–truly a heart breaker to understand how men of such worth and youth were sacrificed for the fire gods.
So hopefully some famous producer like Michael Mann or James Cameron will orient a documentary more in the direction of what went wrong to kill 19 experienced wild land fire fighters and what can be done to change reasons men are being led into deadly situations that are proven to be entirely opposite to principles of wild land fire fighting actions and safety. It had killed 14 at the Storm King fire, 13 at Mann Gulch and many other needless deaths that were presented as unfortunate accidents and not the real reasons the men were killed. The world and the fire community deserve the truth and it needs to be out there in a big way–not watered down and as many are trying to do–forget it and find no reason to change.
Will people tire of the Yarnell Fire Deaths? I think not–Mann Gulch was over 50 years ago, yet it has taken over 50 years for data to be revealed to prove the real cause of those deaths and who was responsible. Fortunately these days we have computers, easy communication, and people in position to contest the thin whitewash over a dirty work.
I do not believe the many efforts and keen investigative work of the elite firemen and other wise individuals that contribute on this site is in vain. There will be results and those results are necessary for lifesaving changes.
Cameron the movie producer was in the news just a couple days ago–something about setting up to drag an astroid into moon orbit so it could be mined. I think probably one they know to be rich in Nickle content?
Just do not let one get loose and drop off to engage earth–one about 70 miles in diameter would pretty much kill off life on earth if it came in at the velocity of what the Astronauts do in their capsules. They have to do it at the right angle or they make a big hole in the earth–but angle and parachutes won’t stop a big asteroid.
I think I have a tektite or at least ejecta from the Chicxulub astroid that destroyed the dinosaurs 65 my ago- but you can get a tektite from ebay for $5 or so that came from a crater 700,000 years ago–interesting thing to have and some of the new worlders use them to attract good tidings since they are actually also a form of a meteorite.
Science is pretty good so I am sure Cameron has the system down so an asteroid does not escape the moon and is sucked in by earth’s gravity. Happy asteroid watching.
Yes the UFO stuff is real and you only have to visit my abode and look out every night to see them. The 2.3 Trillion Cheney said some time ago that was unaccounted for was his story of course and Cheney and company highly benefited for accountable as well as I would have to believe some unaccountable tax dollars. I have to believe if he said 2.3 Trillion is mission then the figure is more like double or triple that amount used on black opts by this date. I would think he knows more than he dares say. On the UFO thing he said if he knew anything it would be top secret so he would not be able to speak about that.
Certainly with those monies, a number of Mercedes have been provided–even Lamborghinis but you have to know that there is technology 200 years ahead of what is known under these secret black opts programs. Most are hidden under Military and Defense secrets but involve everything from weapons and spy satellites to creating the new Warrior. Already they are implanting human DNA mixed with pigs to grow human hearts and you have to believe foreign countries such as China, Japan, Korea, India and others have melded humans with such things as cattle, lions, or apes to create chimeras –those Minotaur of old were real and creations of alien visitors playing around with DNA. We may be creations of their making and perhaps the many alien abductions are to upgrade our rather dull operating brains.
For certain the technology to tap a computer into the brain is already creating super brains and you have the hybrids and cyborgs that are already in action. The future fire fighter will be able to not only think faster and devoid of emotion, he will be able to carry 200 pounds at a increased pace for long distances without tiring. That is already working in the Military Departments and the new Warrior like the Wild Land Fire fighter will be able to sustain situations and stress that far surpasses the human threshold. The hidden tax dollars have developed some interesting technology to say the least.
Yes I have anywhere from one to four obvious UFO appearances that usually last the whole night–they move around and are proud of their lighting systems–green, red, orange, white, blue and one photo I sent Joy has windows of different colored lights. I do suspect they are not aliens per se from other planets manning these things but some of the shape shifters we have in top government –or at least some brain farcked underling that operates these things. They might be watching dope smugglers or the big influx of illegal aliens or again it is possible they are keeping tabs on the White Sands Missle Operations–at least those more to the North would be. I have ordered an optical 83x with 166 digital so I might be able to see if these are lizard men or something more like the earthly varieties we have hanging around Washington DC.
Anyway, hang on to your hats because the world is changing fast–and maybe why the fire gods are not in a mood to change things. Maybe they know that the old time fire fighter is about to be replaced with the new warrior type that will be programmed and fitted up so well that he will make the toughest old wild land fire fighter a thing of the past.
I don’t see retardants doing anything different since these new wild land fire fighters will be immune to toxins–maybe even designed to breath smoke like oxygen. Anyway if we keep pumping green house gases like methane and carbon dioxide in the air and destroying the forests, mainly the Amazon rain forests-maybe we are needing to redesign ourselves so we do not need oxygen–and I do think oxygen gets the alien sick–so we could use some redesigning there.
This world will be fun–for one thing the paper dollar Ponzi scheme where the government gets the Federal Reserve board to print up the billions every time they spend them off and the banks just give them a paper with an official seal for all this paper that is green and purple with some computer stripe to trace it some day will devalue to what it really is–printed paper and nothing but a debt note with nothing to back it. It is moving toward the German Mark or Confederate money–although they are worth more now for their historical value. I keep saying buy yourself some silver–I bought a few silver 50 cent pieces–only in America do you pay $6 for 50 cents. “But I know it is a bargain because the 50 silvers will always be valuable but that dollar is sliding bad. I saw some things in Wal Mart jump lately–99 cent canned dog food is now $139 in just three months. Now that is Speedy Gonzalez on hormones to move like that.
Smile you are on camera, maybe even as you write your Senator on the Internet. Happy trails but leave your phone at home unless your dogs have learned to shoot.
Good idea to check folks out before they pass on–with over 200 now dead in Yarnell, you will have to hurry. Yes and I know you figure I couldn’t stand a third death–and the clock keeps on ticking so you better get those witness statements as soon as possible. I think some of your prime witnesses are already gone—look to your left if you are living in Yarnell, then look to your right–Both neighbors will be dead by now and you are likely ill from something related to a heart, lung or cancer issue. That retardant is strong stuff.
Is Paul stll alive? He lived across from the retired newpaper editor that was fortunate enough to be out of town and live out of town for a long spell before returning. I know he and his wife are still alive since they were away during the first year but that guy next door is dead–the man with the wife that talked a lot. Is she still alive. You can put names to them Joy–they were all on the Northwest edge of Glen Isla with frontal views of the incoming Yarnell Wild Fire.
The editor and wife had a daughter making a honey tequila–Mormon folks as I remember. They were fortunate since they did not live in Yarnell with their tequila factory. But the editor was the last one on the block so he had only one neighbor to die–and I believe the Witness across the moved to Vegas right after the fire. The fortunate ones got the hell out of Dodge after the fire but no one knew that people would be knocked off like flies after the retardant dumps of 2013 and 2016.
Take a look at wild land and city fire statistics concerning heart, lung and cancer issues. You will see that these men suffer way beyond what the statistics should be–how do you repay them for a service that assures them a retirement of doctor and hospital visits and medical expenses add a shortened life span. Once you see their statistics you can better understand why the elderly and those with taxed immune systems were killed off at Yarnell.
There are no long term studies except they do not want you to know that the fish are killed off immediately and the dead zones are being steadily increased in the oceans. They certainly don’t want you to know the obituary list and number of people sick after the retardant dumps at Yarnell. Those politicians are easily convinced that the retardants are harmless when their coffers for election and re election are filled by the corporate giants–like advertising, just a part of their budget to buy politicans–doing business has its costs.
But the human health and environmental concerns are not part of their idea of costs–the clean up and costs there will go to the tax payer who also pays for the distribution of their toxins.
Just that people are ignorant of the facts or are too busy trying to make ends meet. Only a few of the old ones and then the young ones that will inherit the mess are speaking out. The fat cats that are bulging in money will remain as anonymous as possible–power in money and knowledge kept from the public eye. And besides the corporate 1% that own the wealth also know it does not matter how much you harp about their polluting ways, people will continue to apply the retardants despite what they know. That pretty orange is great to Americans for its look–even they loved it in Vietnam but the Vietnamese did not–nor did the soldiers later once they began suffering the harmful effects of having been exposed to it.
When people look at the orange dumping they thing they are getting a good deal for their tax money. I was not until Bill, our Canadian friend did a bit of research and educating himself that he said how he once looked at the drops with admiration–but now sees it entirely differently. Education is a great liberator and even life saver, yet few people actually change. For example, despite the known facts that smoking is guaranteed to shorten your life, eventually cause horrendous health problems, you still see people lighting up.
In so called free America, you have the right to commit suicide your way–I just don’t want to be the one handing you the loaded pistol–rather be trying to talk you out of it. I know what it is like to be on the heart attack death bed. or having numerous cancerous tumors cut out and other medical nightmares. Sometimes I think I deserved the cancers from mining Uranium, adding to the pollution of the world, but I certainly did not deserve the heart attacks that resulted after the retardant drops no more than any other resident of Yarnell did. I see the dumping of retardant toxins on the village of Yarnell as criminal acts covered by propaganda that these corporations produce. I see the way these phosphates, ammonium nitrates and hidden chemicals under trade secret laws as more blatant criminal activity. Maybe you have a more politically correct term for these actions–I can’t think of one.
My opinions of course but they did not come easily–they came from lying on hospital beds, suffering loss of mobility and seeing the many ill and dead of Yarnell, then researching what these chemicals really do. My college Chemistry was a B+ on the verge of an A–that is not an easy course but one that gives you an idea of how chemicals react and how even new chemicals are made once a wet solution of retardant is applied to heat from wild fires. You can even get Zyclon B (cyanide gas) in the mix but the phosphates and nitrates are bad enough for human health and certain instant death to fish but what are the hidden chemicals these fools are adding?. So don’t let the ignorant dispensers of these toxins convince you that they are doing the right thing with their deadly concoctions–they are not! Too many Yarnellites are screaming from their graves–beware of the greedy dispensers of toxins.
Here’s your big chance – NPS Fire Management Specialist (Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (LLC) Manager )
Location: Tucson, AZ OR Boise, ID
“This may be your greatest opportunity to contribute to the growth and well-being of the wildland fire service.”
“Not interested? Please forward to someone you think could handle this challenge.”
“The Federal hiring process is setup to be fair and transparent.”
( https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/553704800 )
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (LLC)Fact Sheet
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (LLC)Fact Sheet – Mission Statement – The Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center(LLC)actively promotes a learning culture to enhance and sustain safe and effective work practices in the wildland fire community. The LLC provides opportunities and resources to foster collaboration among all fire professionals, facilitates their networks, provides access to state-of-the-art learning tools and links learning to training.
“The LLC helps the entire wildland fire community use lessons from the past and present to improve for the future.” And what do you think – how about using the June 30, 2013, Yarnell Hill Fire debacle and the GMHS tragedy as a start?
It was in the fall, 2018 issue of “Two More Chains” magazine where it was ‘announced’ that Brit Rosso, the director of the National Park Service’s Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( WFLLC ) would be retiring.. and not by choice.
Brit Rosso had been the director of the WFLLC since 2010 and is being forced to take mandatory retirment next month, in January of 2019.
Here is that WFLLC “Two Chains Issue” where Rosso’s retirement was announced and WFLLC writer Travis Dotson does an ‘interview’ with Brit Rosso…
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/viewdocument/two-more-chains-fall-2018
Correction for above…
Brit Rosso has ALREADY been forced to take mandatory retirement, back in January of 2019. It’s not ‘upcoming’. It’s already happened. WFLLC is only now getting around to hiring some more management help.
In the Fall, 2018 article above… Brit Rosso said that he wanted to retire back in 2013…. when the Yarnell Hill tragedy took place.
Here is exactly how he described the feeling of FAILURE when Yarnell happened…
———————————————————————————–
Travis Dotson: Were you eligible to retire in 2013?
Brit Rosso: Yes.
Travis Dotson: Did it cross your mind after Yarnell?
Brit Rosso: Yes, actually more than once. I mean that night for sure, and the next day as we learned more. It crossed my mind multiple times;
I was just done.
I don’t know if that’s because of going through South Canyon in ’94, the loss of 34 firefighters that year. And then, losing almost a whole crew in 2013. Our LLC program assistant said to me right afterwards:
“We failed. Everything we’ve done has been for nothing. We failed because this happened again.”
She had this perspective that all the energy and effort that we put in from basically 2002 to 2013 was for naught because it happened again, we lost 19 firefighters.
I had a long conversation with her and said, look, this could happen again tomorrow. That’s how much risk and complexity and uncertainty is baked into this environment that we engage with on a daily basis, it’s an incredibly hazardous environment. And no matter what we do here, we’re not going to be able to stop it, we’re not going to be able to get to zero, we’re not going to be able to keep bad things from happening to good people.
But our hope is with everything that we’re doing here we can decrease the chances of these things from happening.
So yes, I did think about retiring after Yarnell — multiple times.
———————————————————————————–
Newsflash: The BEST way to “decrease the chances of these things from happening” is to, first and foremost, do the best investigation(s) possible and ( then ) tell the TRUTH about what actually happened.
WTKTT,
Thank you for posting this. I missed the ‘Two More Chains’ original article.
Former WLF LLC Center Manager Rosso took the June 30, 213, YH Fire debacle and GMHS tragedy pretty hard stating “I was just done.”
“I don’t know if that’s because of going through South Canyon in ’94, the loss of 34 firefighters that year. And then, losing almost a whole crew in 2013. Our LLC program assistant said to me right afterwards:
“’ We failed. Everything we’ve done has been for nothing. We failed because this happened again. ”
“She had this perspective that all the energy and effort that we put in from basically 2002 to 2013 was for naught because it happened again, we lost 19 firefighters. ”
Pretty bold statement to make here, like THEY were the ones responsible for the GMHS decisions, actions, and outcomes that day.
“I had a long conversation with her and said, look, this could happen again tomorrow. That’s how much risk and complexity and uncertainty is baked into this environment that we engage with on a daily basis, it’s an incredibly hazardous environment.”
“And no matter what we do here, we’re not going to be able to stop it, we’re not going to be able to get to zero, we’re not going to be able to keep bad things from happening to good people.” I agree with this statement. WF deaths from wildfire are inevitable due to Human Factors, Errors, and Failures.
“But our hope is with everything that we’re doing here we can decrease the chances of these things from happening.” Agreed here. That is all we can strive for – reducing WF deaths from wildfires.
“So yes, I did think about retiring after Yarnell — multiple times.”
———————————————————————————–
And spot on with your “Newsflash: The BEST way to ‘decrease the chances of these things from happening’ is to, first and foremost, do the best investigation(s) possible and ( then ) tell the TRUTH about what actually happened.”
And add on to this – why it happened!
There IS the common argument, “don’t let perfect be the enemy of good,” but your position is taking the concept way too far. Your “inevitably” claim is 1 short side-step to the doctrine of acceptable losses (highjacked from the military) and applied to wildland firefighting. While net zero losses may not be possible in the end, it should remain the goal. Accepting any losses due to inherent dangers associated with the job is defeatest and not the premise wildland firefighters should employed under. This is not warfighting and is not akin to taking a risk to save a life. It’s trees and shrubs.
Woodsman,
My “inevitably” claim is NOT a “short side-step to the doctrine of acceptable losses (highjacked from the military) and applied to wildland firefighting.”
Factually, it is a solid conclusion in all work areas across the board, (e.g. motor vehicle transportation, aircraft, maritime, railroad, law enforcement, health care,
Latent conditions are “the inevitable “resident pathogens” within the system” that arise from decisions made … ” (Reason, 2000, p.769).
Since errors are inevitable, workplace safety needs to allow personnel or employees to detect, correct and recover from those errors, which applies to the HRO prong of :deference to expertise.
Dekker further noted: “In the human performance system, human error is merely a symptom of some trouble deeper in the system (2006).
Human factors researchers note that a system approach to human error and workplace accidents puts the emphasis on safety management and the “system defenses” that prevent accidents.
Dr. James Reason asserts that the best way to prevent workplace accidents is to take a system approach and look at “error traps” in the workplace that give rise to accidents, rather than taking a person approach and focusing on human fallibility, which is inevitable.
He also noted in a paper on operating room safety that “There are nearly always losers. In judging uncertain futures, it is inevitable that some of the shots will be called wrongly. We cannot prevent the creation of latent failures, we can only make their adverse consequences visible before they combine with local triggers to breach the system’s defenses. ”
Reason further pointed out that “… gradual culture change [is] occurring in health care, which is learning to admit that human error is inevitable, universal and ‘… a completely normal and necessary part of human cognitive function. ‘Incident, near miss, and adverse event data are now being meaningfully gathered. This is leading to the development and application of effective preventive strategies … referred to as ‘closing the loop.'”
And English researchers Rasmussen, Nixon, and Warner believe that characterizing high professional skill, and a large gamut of heuristic know-how rules, will develop through by an adaptation process in which ‘errors’ are unavoidable side effects of the exploration of the boundaries of the acceptable performance envelope.
I totally agree with you here: “While net zero losses may not be possible in the end, it should remain the goal. Accepting any losses due to inherent dangers associated with the job is defeatest and not the premise wildland firefighters should employed under. This is not warfighting and is not akin to taking a risk to save a life. It’s trees and shrubs.”
“And no matter what we do here, we’re not going to be able to stop it, we’re not going to be able to get to zero, we’re not going to be able to keep bad things from happening to good people.” I agree with this statement. WF deaths from wildfire are inevitable due to Human Factors, Errors, and Failures.
You posted: “But our hope is with everything that we’re doing here we can decrease the chances of these things from happening. V/b> ” Agreed here. I still think we’re saying the same thing here. That is all we can strive for – reducing (decrease the chances) of these WF deaths from wildfires.
Thanks. All of those quotes were not mine, by the way.
How about we take a different tack on this one. Rosso, the recently forced to retire director of the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center, was quoted at the end of his interview by a subordinate saying we cannot fight fire safely.
The final question in the interview was, “Can we fight fire safely?”
The retiring director of the WFLLC said “No.”
What are your thoughts on that? If this is the case than aren’t we lying to firefighters and the public with Fire Order #10?
This comes back to the orders serving to protect management from culpability in the case of an accident. Management has forced the workers to adhere to basic rules that can’t be followed. All of the responsibility for accident avoidance is placed on the ground forces. Management has admitted that we can’t fight fire safely; no matter what and sometimes “bad things happen to good people.” Sounds very similar to the SAIR from Yarnell Hill.
Woodsman,
You posted “The final question in the interview was, “Can we fight fire safely?” with Rosso saying “No.”
My thoughts on that? I disagree with him. I believe – and know – we absolutely can fight wildfires safely
You are correct, based on what Rosso claims, we are certainly lying to firefighters and the public with Fire Order #10. However, it’s up to the WFs, FFs, and Supervisors themselves to ensure that, and not the public.
I have never believed in the claim that the Fire Orders serve “to protect management from culpability in the case of an accident.”
I do subscribe to the notion that “Management has forced the workers to adhere to basic rules that can’t be followed.”
I absolutely believe that MOST “of the responsibility for accident avoidance is placed on the ground forces” and the rest on Management.
Indeed, some of management has admitted that we can’t fight fire safely; no matter what and sometimes “bad things happen to good people.” And it certainly does sound very similar to the YH Fire SAIT-SAIR.
I firmly believe in and subscribe to Brazilian researcher Maurizio Catino and his Individual Blame Logic (IBL) and Organizational Function Logic (OBL) method where both are at fault.
Catino, Maurizio. 2008. ‘A Review of Literature: Individual Blame vs. Organizational Function Logic in Accident Analysis.’ Journal of Contingencies and Crisis Management 16(1):
Catino notes that most safety experts believe that IBL, which seeks to allocate blame, can lead to scapegoating of one individual and impede identification of means of prevention that would come from a more systematic understanding of the many factors leading to the accident. OFL, on the other hand, seeks to identify organizational and structural factors that create conditions under which an accident is likely. OFL proponents argue that “blame culture, reinforced by a certain type of legal action, becomes the first obstacle to the creation of greater safety.” And so, the focus on wrongfulness of individual decisions inherent in traditional negligence doctrine can be counterproductive.
Friedman, Ezra (2018) SHARING RESPONSIBILITY INSTEAD OF ALLOCATING BLAME: REFORMING TORTS AND REDUCING ACCIDENTS Univ. of Illinois Law Review
( https://illinoislawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Friedman.pdf )
Well…I wasn’t going to post again but wouldn’t you know it, I read the discussion between RTS and The Woodsman and I have gotten sucked in again.
The following is an incomplete draft of a piece I wrote the other day for to publish here, but then decided I wasn’t going to publish it, but now I need to jump in and support The Woodsman because HE IS RIGHT AND RTS IS WRONG…AGAIN.
I am have been very interested in the discussion below among sever people so I just had to jump in with my opinions on the subject. I have been refraining from posting because I am on sabbatical but the posting of the link to the article by Robert Much by RTS was enough to also bring me here today. The reason I haven’t been posting is because I don’t have anything new to add to the process that will help explain the specific reason why the GMIHC left the black and broke almost all of the protocols that have been created to keep wildland firefighters safe over more than 100 years of organized wildland firefighting in the U.S. by land management agencies, specifically the U. S. Forest Service.
And I don’t have anything new to add to that process today either, but I do have some random thoughts on WF safety protocols and my own interpretation of those protocols and how I implemented them in the real world of fighting fire on the front line as a hotshot crew supervisor for 8 years.
I do have one new thing to add to our on going general discussion however, and that is to answer the question poised by Sonny some time back while he and Joy were discussing my own father’s death. I didn’t even read everything they wrote but I did scan it and I caught the question regarding the date of his death. The reason I didn’t read what they wrote is because it is to painful for me to read and hurts to much. I will eventually read everything and even write about it in my book because the topic is important to be and I believe his death can be directly linked to the deaths of our crew in many ways. But I have to do it in small increments so as not to be completely overwhelmed with grief. I don’t know how the loved ones of the crew can follow this thread, I assume some of them are, but most probably aren’t because it must certainly be overwhelmingly painful. I can see the attraction to just accepting the Big Lie perpetuated by so many regarding how and under what circumstances the crew perished to become not only the most catastrophic single event in WF history, but also the most inexplicable and the event that should have been theoretically impossible to occur. But…taking the easy way out won’t help keep current and future WF from dying under similar circumstances because as I like to write ad nauseam, “Once is an anomaly (the Loop Fire of 1966) twice is a coincidence (the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976), but three times is a pattern (the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013).
For example, both my father and the crew died providing for their families or for the families they hoped to have someday by building their resumes one day at a time in order to better their lives and opportunities for a good job with adequate pay and benefits that could support a family which most of them didn’t have at the time. And all of them died furthering the goals of their employers that would benefit others while engaged in what were both inherently dangerous jobs where a making a mistake at work can and does have catastrophic consequences. Furthermore, I believe the most relative connection is that my father and our crew died in the “danger zone” to borrow a phrase that was made popular in our pop culture by the movie, “Top Gun.”
The danger zone is a term I just made up to help explain what safety at work means to me and is self explanatory. The second phrase I am going to adopt to help explain my understanding of WF safety is the “twilight zone.” The dictionary defines twilight as, “a conceptual area that is undefined or intermediate” or, “the period of the evening when twilight takes place, between daylight and darkness.”
Both of these definitions apply to the concept pertaining to worker safety that I am attempting to explain with this post. In fact…I have just discarded my use of the term danger zone because I think the twilight zone is more descriptive and accurate for what some WF face periodically and is where hotshots are bred by the fire gods to routinely and effectively operate in on their own without requiring any support or additional supervision. And for the purpose of this metaphor, daylight is clearly the safe zone and darkness is unmistakably the danger zone everyone should stay out of if possible unless they are really heads up and maybe even then as well?
Now that I have set the table, here is the meat of the meal or in deference to vegetarians out there, we could call it the entree and this way, the main course of our meal can be whatever you want it to be and we won’t take the risk of sickening vegetarians by the thought of eating rotting animal flesh. I mean all meat is rotting animal flesh…right? It just depends on the degree and what specific stage it is in when you actually consume it. Omaha Steaks always advertise their most popular box of decaying and rotting beef on TV this time of the year and it comes with 4 (2.88 once) Potatoes au Gratin and 4 (4 ounce) Caramel Apple Tartlets. Anyway…they advertise their 4 (5 ounce) Filet Mignons are aged for 21 days and that makes them so tender they melt in your mouth. A process that the natural enzymes in the meat to break down the tissue through dry aging. So by eating aged meat, you are chewing on meat that has been given a head start in decomposing…yummy.
My brother, who died from cancer a few years ago and who I have written about many times on this thread was a fanatical vegetarian his entire adult life who liked to travel to many of the places I refused to go with him because I couldn’t take the U.S. Constitution and several guns with me to study far Eastern religions of East, South and Southeast Asia seeking to something…although it never clear to me exactly what he was looking for. Answers I guess? Although I don’t know to answers to which specific questions?
Anyway…my brother used to be a real fun guy to eat at Mexican Taquerias with because he would often discuss the rotting animal flesh I was trying to enjoy in either my Chile Colorado or Chile Verde burritos and what specific stage of decay the beef or pork was in that I was eating. What does this have to do with WF safety or the deaths of the crew? Maybe nothing…or maybe everything depending on how you apply my new metaphor to think of WF safety. And that is because all of the actions undertaken by WF in general and hotshots in particular happen in that conceptual area that is the twilight transition zone that is undefined and intermediate. And that is just like the meat we eat because it’s not from a fresh kill (daylight) like my Uncle [Mule] Skinner Slade and the cow hands used to make right in front of my horrified eyes and it isn’t rotten (darkness)….yet.
Blah…blah…blah. What does this all mean (if you have managed to stay with me this far, however unlikely that may be) to WF safety in general and hotshot fire line safety in particular? There isn’t an obvious, bright, unmistakable, clearly defined and unambiguous line in the sand out there that you shall not cross, however much those on the other side of this argument would like you to believe there is. I think most decisions I made as a hotshot crew shot caller were made in the grey darkness at dusk. The decisions that are made during the day or those made at night are easy calls.
And just for the record…I think the call made by Eric Marsh to move his crew out of the safe black and order them to hike down a brush chocked natural chimney in front of a raging wildfire of Biblical proportions over the repeated objections of his second-in-command who was the Acting Crew Boss of the GMIHC wasn’t a close call. It was criminal negligence and made during the harsh glare of bright sunlight for all to see and subsequently evaluate. That is why in spite of all of the WF safety protocols that include the 10 Standard Firefighting Rules and the 18 Situations (there were only 13 back during my time on the fire line) That Shout Watch Out, in addition to Paul Gleeson’s LCES
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/leaders_meet/interviews/leaders_PaulGleason.html LCES (Lookouts, Communication, Escape Routes and Safety Zones) concept that has become the modern foundation of WF Safety.
And just FYI…the side of the argument I come down on are the 10 Standard Firefighting Rules are just that…rules. And I interpret the 18 Situations That Shout Watch Out as guidelines. As a matter of fact, (here is where my old friend RTS goes apoplectic) I even take it one step further because I believe LCES should be the cornerstone of all WF Safety Protocols and should replace the 10 and the 18 (to use the colloquial WF culture vernacular) in their entirety.
And that is because I think the 10 and 18 are “hillbilly” to quote Sad Sack McDonough in the way they are organized and taught. In addition the 10 and the 18 are unmanageable, outdated, redundant and redundant and redundant, and because they are to specific and overly broad at the same time. And mostly just because the 10 and 18 checklists are to much for the average WF to memorize and effectively apply under real world conditions on the fire line.
The rules aren’t hillbilly, but they way they are taught are as outdated as the cartoon figures that are found throughout WF training. All of the concepts capsulated in the 10 and the 18 need to be taught, but not by the numbers and not by rout. I know I have gone back and forth over the past 6 years on this thread while trying to discuss the very complex issue of WF safety. I have gone back and forth mostly because whenever I tried to “keep it real” both RTS and Bob P. would double team me and because I am a very vulnerable person with a fragile ego and low self esteem. And in the end, I let them dominate me by collectively humping my head. But those days are now over, I have put my big boy panties on, hitched them up to my midsection and I’m now going to stand up for what I believe in by speaking “truth to power”, which is another phrase that is way to pretentious for me to use under normal circumstances. But…we aren’t in normal times and getting my message out requires extraordinary effort and corny phrases like “keeping it real” and “truth to power.”
Now…I need to be a little more specific and the concept I am advocating isn’t new or original. This concept was first proposed (that I know about) by Dr. Ted Putnam in his white paper, “Fire Safety: Up In Smoke.” And when I first read it many years ago it was an enlightening experience for me because that was the point in my life as a “Student Of Four Fires (most people just say, “Student Of Fire) but I have to be more specific since I only have the interest and capacity to study four fires and of course those are the Loop Fire Of 1966, the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976, the South Canyon Fire Of 1994 and finally, the worst wildland Fire in history…the Yarnell Hill Fire Of 2913. And as I have written before, this is because all I ever was or wanted to be on the fire line was a hotshot. I love and care about all wildland firefighters equally, but I love and care about hotshots more equally than all of the others.
And the reason why reading “Fire Safety: Up In Smoke was such an enlightening experience for me, was because for the first time, someone who is recognized and in my opinion, the wisest and most respected WF Safety expert in the world let me know what I believed and had been taught as a hotshot wasn’t heresy. And I wasn’t a heretic who should be burned at the stake, no matter how much some would like to do that about now.
There is however, a world of difference between what Eric Marsh et al taught Sad Sack and what I was taught. I wasn’t taught that the 10 and 13 were hillbilly, I was simply taught that they were written by management for the protection of management of what is commonly referred known as “the agencies.”
This description includes every member agency of the National Wildland Coordinating Group (NWCG) including city, county, state and federal entities. And furthermore, I was taught that the rules were there to always provide a convenient level of deniability for management and a mechanism to blame the firefighter while hanging them out to dangle in the wind. Or at least we believed that was the primary purpose of all of the WF safety protocols. No matter what happened to go wrong, there were enough rules written and they were vague enough that those protocols allowed the managers of not only the agencies but the overhead of the specific fire in question to say in effect, “It wasn’t our fault, we told them not to do that”, all while blaming the lower level firefighters. You can learn more about the NWCG at the following link and most likely, they will always be multiple rules and guidelines that were violated in any given situation that is closely examined in every investigation.
And because Dr. Putnam’s white paper isn’t really that long, I am going to copy it here so I can point out some of the specific areas I found so groundbreaking and put into organized words, what had been up until then just a unorganized jumbled concept floating around in my cerebellum where my cognitive (“the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses”) functions most likely reside. I have added my own thoughts in key areas in all caps and in parentheses. And that isn’t because I am SHOUTING, it’s because I don’t know how to differentiate my thoughts from those of Dr. Putnam.
THIS PAPER ACCURATELY CAPTURES AND PORTRAYS THE WORLD OF FIRE THAT I KNEW AND LOVED. AND OF COURSE YOU CAN TAKE THE DESCRIPTION OF HOW THE ENTURE SYSTEM WORKS AND MULTIPLY IT TIMES X FACTIR FOR HOTSHOTS LIKE EVERTHING RELATED TO HOTSHOTS
HIGH OCTANE, HYPER DRIVEN, ON STEROIDS, “We will live up to the hype or die trying.” Gallows humor, Fred and I disagree. Death Head Hotshots. (A fictitious crew I have made in order to illustrate safety issues) of course Fred disagrees with both the name and the concept.
Part II
FIRE SAFETY: UP IN SMOKE?
Dr. Ted Putnam, Ph. D. Psychologist
“The safety record of the 2000 fire season was a good one and a credit to firefighters. Ironically, this was due partly to the intensity of the fires. Aggressive tactics were clearly imprudent in the face of massive flame fronts and aberrant fire behavior. These conditions dictated (and justified) a conservative approach where firefighters spent less time in harm’s way.
So the 2000 safety record was more a function of the fires themselves rather than any objective organizational changes that made the fireline a safer place.
In fact, there remain inherent safety problems in wildland firefighting that go unaddressed and which make substantive safety reform impossible.
While a Forest Service employee, I investigated many of the entrapments that occurred in the past twenty plus years. In my early years as a firefighter I was told and believed that fire management provided safety fixes after “the ashes had settled.” Because of that belief, I helped cover up the real causes of the fatalities on the Battlement Fire in 1976. I bit my tongue on many more, including South Canyon in 1994 and Sheppard Mountain in 1996, due to promised improvements. As the promises faded, I began to speak up at firefighter conferences because if fire safety is ever going to be “fixed,” the real causes of fatalities, injuries and near misses must be clearly understood. If organizational safety practices and training are based on the “official records,” which many times are not based on the facts, how effective can these practices be?
In this article I outline six areas in which firefighter safety has improved little, despite clear lessons like South Canyon.
Lack of fire management support for human factors.
When looking at the fatalities, accidents, near misses and unsafe actions, fire organizations historically have focused on physical causes and ignored mental and cultural causes – the human factors. The rule of thumb among safety experts in the military and private sector is that only 20 percent of the causal factors are physical, while 80 percent are mental or cultural. If safety is to be No.1, on the fireline why have wildland fire organizations suppressed or minimized the mental and cultural causes of accidents?
Recent examples where human factors (mental and cultural) aspects of accidents were largely ignored includes: (1) mediocre entrapment investigations, many of which involve cover-up’s and misinformation (South Canyon, Shepard Mountain); (2) forcing human factor concerns to be removed from the 1998 Butler et al. report; (3) under funding then canceling the human factors effort at the Missoula Technology and Development Center (MTDC), including the human factors newsletter (USDI, 2000); (4) the Center for Lessons Learned at Marana tracks only physical causes (USDI, 2000); (5) the new incident reporting system tracks physical and equipment causes, but ignores human factors; (6) failure to adopt Crew Resource Management (CRM) for firefighters after it was recognized nationally as a need that had the potential to reduce accidents and fatalities by 50 percent. (I don’t know enough about how the current system operates to know if there have been any improvements in the areas identified since this paper was written, but I think there have been in the human factors category?)
Why safety is not No. 1.
Safety has never has been No. 1 and may never be. What then are the behaviors that compete with safety? After many discussions with firefighters and 35 years in the fire organization, in my opinion they are in order of potency and priority:
1. Putting the fire out. We are a can-do organization. This is the most heavily reinforced behavior on the fireline and most likely the leading cause of fatalities. See South Canyon Fire (USDI, 1994) and Sadler Fire (USDI, 1999) for examples.
2. Financial concerns. Personal financial incentives, while necessary, too often bias firefighters to work to the point of mental and physical deterioration, making accidents more imminent. This is more likely a cause of injury and near misses than fatalities. Fire managers and Incident Management Teams often under spend to save money in initial fire outbreaks. This results in insufficient resources attacking the fire. This alone or in combination with factor No. 1 puts firefighters at risk and can lead to fatalities (South Canyon, 1994).
3. Self and/or crew image. Who am I and who are we if we fail to put out the fire? We love to discuss and take pride in what we do. We don’t brag about the one that got away or the one we chose not to fight (but we should when it involves excessive risk, i.e. the Sadler Fire). Esprit de corps can turn into excessive risk, especially when the public, media, and politicians are watching (Weick, 1995).
4. Agency/ Fire Organization image. The argument here is similar to self and crew image. We strive to accomplish No. 1 so the image of all firefighters is enhanced. This factor is more potent when we try to minimize an agency’s causal connections to fatalities such as BLM fire management on the South Canyon Fire (Maclean, 1999). Interagency cooperation is the reason cited for allowing BLM smokejumpers to use inherently more dangerous parachutes (ram-airs) on USFS lands when much safer parachutes are available (rounds). This factor, image before safety, can be a primary barrier to fire organizations becoming learning organizations. See Karl Weick’s book: Sensemaking in Organizations and Peter Senge’s The Fifth Discipline.
5. Safety. Here safety is the concern for self and others. For safety to move up the list firefighters and agencies must look more closely at the higher reinforced factors and how to reduce or neutralize their potency. Firefighters must learn to think more clearly and then take the relevant factors into account before committing to strategies and tactics. And they must mindfully review the associated risks, especially following changing fire behavior and weather conditions. See my related article Mindful Of Safety (2001) recommending the practice of mindfulness.
Failure to change. A reoccurring factor in many accidents and fatalities is the failure to change strategies and tactics when fire behavior changes. Incident Action Plans often are mindlessly followed and push others into unsafe, potentially life-threatening actions (Shepard Mountain Fire, 1996) even though the conditions they were based upon no longer exist. This factor is often more potent than No. 5.
No one can follow the 10 standard fire orders.
It is humanly impossible to follow the 10 Standard Fire Orders and still fight the fire. How did this come about? What do we mean when we say, “We don’t bend them, we don’t break them”? In discussing these issues with fire managers, they say the orders pertain to each and every firefighter-not just to the crew superintendent or the crew collectively. Since no one can follow them, it is not surprising that investigations into fatalities and accidents show some or all were violated. Using the 10 Standard Fire Orders and the 18 Situations that Shout Watchout is still SOP for wildland fire entrapment investigations (Sadler Fire, 1999) even though such methodology is considered archaic and much better methodologies exist (Munson, 2000).
What is a personal example? Look at order No. 5: “Obtain current information on fire status”. The behavioral problem here is that as soon as you make any fire observation it becomes a static conceptual memory and a moment later it is no longer current. A picky detail? Not when you consider how your mind processes information. We make decisions on the past remembered fire behavior (concepts) rather than the current fire behavior. Normally the direct perception of the actual fire behavior is short circuited by the concept, which has only a fraction of the information of a direct perception (de Charms, 1998). Most of the time we are unaware of the conceptual substitution and the corresponding gaps in our perception. To learn more about the underlying psychology refer to Daniel Goleman’s Vital Lies, Simple Truths and Karl Weick’s Sensemaking in Organizations.
Now consider a management example. Whenever I hear a fire manager say we don’t bend or break the 10 Standard Fire Orders, I issue them the challenge to identify which, if any, should never be broken. Their normal answer is all of them. But if I clarify, that the same fire order then becomes the basis for never engaging a fire and the basis for disengaging the fire if it can’t be followed, they go strangely silent. To date I have not had a single Fire Order recommended by anyone, once the clarification and added contingency are stated. Clearly, fire management wants and enjoys a system where they can seldom be held accountable.
Most wildland fire entrapment investigations involve covering up evidence. Often these actions are done deliberately but sometimes they are done out of ignorance. Why do we do this? Deliberate reasons include: (1) other organizations do it (such as structural fire departments, the military, etc.). (2) The agency will be sued if we don’t. (3) Key individuals have suffered enough. (4) The agency will look bad. (5) We’ll correct the situation when “the ashes have settled,” i.e., South Canyon IMRT effort. Cover-ups, involving ignorance, include: (1) sending untrained people to investigate the entrapment (a favorite of wildland agencies). (2) Don’t send someone who is getting wise to all the ways to cover-up evidence (as happened to me after the South Canyon Fire). (3) Send interested parties as investigators (biased towards covering up) (USDI, 1994). (4) Send only people with firefighting expertise, as that is primarily what they will notice and report (no psychologist or sociologist allowed). (5) Removing evidence before the team arrives (another favorite). (6) Ineffective interviewing skills that lead to short, incomplete accounts, i.e., lack of sufficient detail to understand the underlying causes. We then report all the superficial old favorite causes and can recommend the perennial “back to the basics” (South Canyon Fire, USDI, 1994). If it’s not reported, you don’t have to fix it and can’t be held responsible for similar future occurrences.
Active concern for safety is punished.
This is usually passive punishment (withholding something normal or positive). An example of passive punishment is when I was no longer allowed to go on entrapment investigations when I did not sign the South Canyon report. Sometimes punishment is subtle, like labeling safety recommendations and presentations as “Mickey Mouse.” This safety attitude is very visible organizationally since safety is poorly positioned, funded and staffed at all levels of government showing it’s true importance with top management.
We are a long way from becoming a learning organization.
Senge (1990) defined a learning organization as one “where people continually expand their capacity to create the results they truly desire, where new and expansive patterns of thinking are nurtured, where collective aspiration is set free, and where people are continually learning how to learn together”.
We will continue to put people at risk if we never learn from our mistakes. Multiple fatality reports, such as South Canyon, look all too similar to those generated as long as 40 years ago; a sure sign of management failure. A persistent and vital need identified as a remedial action for more than 40 years is an incident reporting system (similar to the airlines). If safety is to ever be No.1 why has such an easy remedial action taken so long to implement? The data generated by such an IRS would become a baseline for assessing if organizational changes reduce accident frequency. Both the incident reporting system and the need to become a learning organization were identified in the first human factor conference in Missoula (USDA, 1995) as well as the follow-up 1999 conference in Reno (USDI, 2000). Fire management has also been slow to implement Tri Data recommendations, which are a large part of what has been learned so far to make fire culture safer.
Summary
Currently the fire organization is not very proactive in making safety a major influence in strategies and tactics. Getting the job done, money and image concerns push firefighters into taking excessive risk. What is needed organizationally is truthful fire investigations, an honest reporting system that tracks physical, mental, cultural and social aspects of firefighting and a willingness to become a learning organization. If safety is ever to become No. 1 in the fire community then the fire community must be willing to spend more time, money and effort to make it No. 1. The fire community must get beyond its superficial practices like saying over and over again that safety is No. 1 without any true, longer-term, institutionalized commitment. Part of this commitment should involve adopting CRM throughout the organization, following-up on the Tri-Data contract recommendations and promoting clearer thinking through the practice.”
Risk a lot to save a lot is an completely alien concept and complete and total anathema to to everything I was I was taught to fall back as far as I needed to in order to be safe and backfire the next drainage or one of the ones after that. I never gave a thought to somebody’s slice of heaven on s bun in the wikdland urban interface where they should have built three tree with doors and windows in the first place.
So…to sum up my opinion regarding wildland firefighter safety on the fire line make no mistake about it, the system is designed to reward and promote the bold and punish while passing over the timid. I agree with everything Dr. Putnam wrote in the preceding white paper. That’s the system and culture that I knew and loved. It is the height of hypocrisy to pretend it was any different and most likely still is with some slight modifications around the edges.
And as I have written many times, I always colored inside the lines but that isn’t the issue. The real question is…where were those lines? Wildland firefighter supervisors and managers really earn their money while making the hard calls, the decisions that are made in that spectrum of light between sunset and nightfall.
Oh…and one more thing. With that kind of latitude in a freewheeling environment within which to operate, just how far off all of the standard WF charts and graphs, while simultaneously going beyond any known datum point of acceptable and condoned behavior do you think Eric Marsh had to go in order to earn the distinction of being universally condemned by the WF culture for making the biggest blunder in our history? Marsh’s decisions and actions on the Yarnell Hill Fire shocked us to our core while rocking our world to its very bedrock and left us dumbfounded in disbelief as we stumbled around in the pitch black night vainly searching as we grouped for some valid explanation to the inexplicable that doesn’t seem to exist in this world. Pretty darn far I would have to surmise.
And just as a reminder, the reason I objected to RTS posting an article about WF safety by Robert Much is because he is the fraud and phony who was called in to Bill Bucks’s office on the Mighty Coconino where he was told Buck’s real inner thoughts on why the Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew Boss, in addition to two crew members were burned to death on the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976 and a squad boss was severely burned, but he choose to omit that information from the official report and thereby helped to write a false, fictitious and fraudulent federal document in violation of 18 USC, 1001 because under the law, an omission is treated the same as a lie.
Buck told him the real reason why those men died, they were living the official motto of the Death Head Hotshots, “We will live up to the hype…or die trying.”
Correction, “Robert Mutch.”
And once I pointed that fact out to Mutch in an email, he immediately stopped all further communication with me regarding the Battlement Creek Fire which he had begun so he could “learn more” about the fire from my first hand observations from that day and what else I knew about what Mormon Lake was doing on the fire.
Gary said:
“Oh…and one more thing. With that kind of latitude in a freewheeling environment within which to operate, just how far off all of the standard WF charts and graphs, while simultaneously going beyond any known datum point of acceptable and condoned behavior do you think Eric Marsh had to go in order to earn the distinction of being universally condemned by the WF culture for making the biggest blunder in our history? Marsh’s decisions and actions on the Yarnell Hill Fire shocked us to our core while rocking our world to its very bedrock and left us dumbfounded in disbelief as we stumbled around in the pitch black night vainly searching as we grouped for some valid explanation to the inexplicable that doesn’t seem to exist in this world. Pretty darn far I would have to surmise.”
Good point. To put it into even more perspective, apparently many of the SW crews had the opinion GM was basically an accident waiting to happen. See the “final link” quote from a superintendent heard from at a staff ride. How’s that for double-shaking our core?
Pretty darn bad I would have to surmise. Thanks for repeating the link, I missed it somewhere?
And if this program had a correction feature as WTKTT has pointed out before, I would have more specifically written, “just how far off all of the standard WF SAFETY charts and graphs, while simultaneously going beyond any known datum point of acceptable and condoned behavior ON THE FIRE LINE do you think Eric Marsh had to go in order to earn the distinction of being universally condemned by the WF culture for making the biggest blunder in our history?”
Wait…where is that link?
It’s a quote not a link. Sorry. Hotshots superintendents said at a staff ride that they saw it coming and peer pressure didn’t work, etc. RTS can quote it I’m sure…after he recovers from the trauma of Putnam’s crown jewel, Safety, Up In Smoke, was quoted. 🙂
I remember that…thanks. And RTS has written many similar things over the past more than six years and I believe him.
And just in case anyone is wondering how I came up with the name “Death Head Hotshots” as the name for a fictional crew to help illustrate some of the fire line safety points I want to make, it’s not completely original.
RTS and his crew already used a rendition for a gag T-shirt (he was kind enough to send me one) for the Murdoch Basin Fire Of 1990 that is similar to the original illustration from a OFFICIAL USFS FIRE SAFETY VIDEO!
I mean…c’mon, this is absolutely AWESOME. My next challenge coin is going to be based on this logo, I will let you know when I am taking pre orders!
Standards For Survival training video image at about 9:22 spot and all throughout the rest of the video at fatality wildfires
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=44aLbVed9Ds
I mean…I was so wrong to criticize the use of cartoon figures in so much WF training because this one is totally AWESOME! I am going to use the exact image for my crew logo. I’m going to make up T-shirts as well, “Honorary Member, Death Head Hotshots, “We will live up to the hype…or die trying!”
It’s goin’ to be absolutely AWESOME!
Question: So Gary…how do you think the challenge coin, t-shirts, patches and hats you are going to make up using the Death Head Hotshots logo are going to turn out?
Answer: FREAKIN’ AWESOME MAN…FREAKIN’ AWESOME!
Question: Gary…don’t you think you should be working on your book instead of wasting your time and money taking a trip down this particular rabbit hole?
Answer: Yeah…I guess so? Party pooper!
I thought to post this for friends and wild land fire fighters in the outback. If you have down time such as we watched the GMHS crew killing time for a long while and tossing rocks for a bit of entertainment–I thought these guys in places they could find a tektite or meteorite–and some are more valuable than their weight in gold. A small ounce meteorite could be worth more or less than 1200 buckeroos–shit you could buy a few rounds with that. It would also supplement the puny wage you are paid for the dangerous work you do.
96% of all meteorites that fall are stones, not irons–but it turns out that about 90% of those found are irons since they are black and heavy and easily seen and identified. Irons will always be strongly magnetic and if you grind a bit on them you will see silvery specks of nickle metal dispersed about. Just about all meteorites, stones or irons have nickle content–earth rocks are very rare to contain nickle.
The trouble with stone meteorites is that the generally black shiny fusion crust soon erodes away leaving a stone that fits in with earth rocks in appearance. But when you see a stone that has a black usually crazed surface –maybe mostly weathered off but easily seen then you could have a meteorite and if a Mars one only 224 are around to date–you hit a damn good jack pot there. Most will be common chrondites but they are valuable as well and plenty of scientists and others are willing to pay to get to study these things.
So I will share this e-mail I had sent to Joy since I know she is always interested in rocks–space–UFO photos and other interests that give her a little respite for the fire fighting and retardant abuse investigations.
Joy, I did check my work and this time work more consistent and carefully using two different digital scales that are accurate to .01 gm. That is plenty to get an accurate reading for Specific Gravity –with checking my work and more care I came out with 2.48 SG which puts it as a Tektite for certain. The upper limits are at about 2.52 so it is quite a bit under the upper limits of known Tektites. Agate runs about 2.60 and Quartz a bit heavier at 2.65. The Quartz and Agate I did by my method and they check with the book figures so I know my results are valid.
Tektites vary in Specific Gravity to a low of about 2.3 to a high of 2.52 according to the chart I am looking at on SG of Tektites. But this tektite is in a high range only seen in Javanites that range up to 2.495. And as I understand the Java Crater has not been discovered but believed to be in the range of what Chicxulub would be from here. The only Chicxulub Tektites that they think are tectites are some small beads in clay so nothing that you could have large enough to easily identify as a tektite. Well this will be a big news story if it plays out as it should because this is certainly a tektite and nothing that has ever been found or known in this area.
Bediasites are found in Texas now and again but this is out of that range and also the Specific Gravity Range does not ragne this high–they have 469 specimens listed range is 2.329-2.433 while Javanites 68 specimens tested at 2.396-2.495 making them averaging the densest of the tektites. So you see 2.48 SG puts this tektite right in that range and also in the distance graph for the Chicxulub event 65 MY ago. The next thing will be paying that guy up in Socorro to date this and if it dates right by their equipment to about 65my then this will be one sought after tektite–either way it identifies as a tektite and whatever date comes of it if not the Chicxulub then they will be hunting an unknown crater.
You might like to know that day I had old Shiek of Geronimo hanging around so I told the good Spirits I was tired of looking for meteorites and not coming up with one so I asked to be directed to one. Well would you not know I soon hit upon that tektite–immediately knew it to be one–and said well Tektites can also be considered to be a meteorite though originating from craters on earth. I was happy with the find but thought the Spirit world was leading me along a bit since I had in mind a Mars or Moon thing. Ain’t it good though and I smile–Thank you Irish Gods and Jesus-But I don’t like heights nor entertain the idea of a saucer ride–I was always glad to get off those aluminum jobs men glue together–and I don’t intend to walk out on that Grand Canyon thing they built while we were there. I will leave that to the astronauts.
Happy trails and may you find a good one.
Brit Rosso was forced to take early retirement almost a year ago, in January of 2019, and his position at WFLLC is still vacant.
Here is a list of the current STAFF at the WFLLC, and which positions are still VACANT…
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/aboutus
——————————————————————————————
WFLLC Center Director: Vacant
Program Assistant: Vacant
Assistant Director: Alex Viktora (520) 799 8748
Writer/Editor: Paul Keller (503) 622 4861
Analyst: Travis Dotson (520) 468 1618
Field Operations Specialist: Breanne Orcasitas (520) 799 8761
—————————————————————————————–
WTKTT,
I’m having trouble finding the info about Rosso being “forced” to take early retirement. It’s not that I don’t believe you (i do), I just want to see it for myself. I didn’t know this happened. Thanks
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( WFLLC )
Hosted by the National Park Service
“Two More Chains” – Fall, 2018 Issue
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/viewdocument/two-more-chains-fall-2018
Summary of the Fall, 2018 Issue of “Two More Chains”…
——————————————————————————–
Traumatic Transitions
How to cope and navigate through changes and their associated dangers. Brit Rosso, OUTGOING Director of the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center, shares his firsthand insights into how to prepare yourself for moving through difficult transitions.
——————————————————————————-
From the Fall, 2018 issue itself…
——————————————————————————-
Traumatic Transitions
Article by WFLLC writer: Travis Dotson
Brit Rosso is the Director of the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center — but not for long.
Brit is retiring in January 2019, and not by choice.
This winter Brit gets the old “golden boot” — the federal wildland fire mandatory retirement.
This is a big transition. So while we still have Brit, we wanted to get his perspective on big transitions. You might be surprised where we end up
( Interview with Brit Rosso about his upcoming forced retirement )
——————————————————————————
National Wildfire Coordinating Group ( NWCG )
Risk Management Committee
Winter Meeting, NIFC Boise ID
October 30, 2018 through November 1, 2018
Meeting Minutes
https://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/committee-meeting-notes/rmc-mt-2018-10-30.pdf
On PDF page 8 of those NWCG meeting minutes…
————————————————————————-
Brit Rosso will be retiring in January 2019.
————————————————————————-
https://youtu.be/LmSyIwPsOXY
You have to really smile … we do not have a Congress Independent in my town so you know that I am aware of … but Iraqi is now interested in Yarnell Hill Fire … you have to take a moment to go watch this video or at least hit like on the comment area –
here is the link to the project-
https://globaltiesarizona.org/event/firefighting-in-the-us-ivlp-project-for-iraq/
oops- wrong link:
http://www.globaltiesdetroit.org/events/list/Iraq6#966
Jeff and them are gonna explain the 2013 YH Fire-
I had to laugh
will it follow the SAIT – SAIR???
No. It was Willis and Palm who were at Yarnell showing the Iraqi Firefighters about Yarnell🔥 🇮🇶
More to be shown …
I had thought to desist from posting for a while since generally my posts are from the view point of a non-professional fire fighter, often some off the line as well. However information from Joy tells me that Gerald Lawson had passed away at Yarnell. His wife had developed a serious illness after the wild land fire dumps of retardant. Joy and I would often see them at the local restaurant–very congenial people and has served in the ministry as well. As it was we expected that she would not last long since her illness had gotten so bad she could hardly walk–Joy is trying to learn if she is passed as well.
Add to that, Pete the Miner tht most everyone knew–his rock shop and rock works were just as you topped the mountain. He was a stout and robust individual and looked to be in his late 50’s –a fellow you would expect to still be strong in his 80’s. Those retardant dumps are no respecter of persons. You may as well have a nuclear fall out on the town and I am not sure it would surpass the terrible toll this retardant toxin has taken on the Yarnellites–especially those along in age.
So honor goes to Gerald and his wife and Pete the miner–long time honorable residents of Yarnell and victims of the Yarnell retardant experiment. They will be missed along with the many other residents whom have suffered the chemical toxins of the copious secret chemical laden retardant drops.
There are many issues to address concerning the Wild Fires of Yarnell. Most of course regard the June, 2013 wild fire that killed the 19 GMHS crew but there was also the subsequent Tenderfoot fire of June, 2016 that involved more retardant dumping and exposure to residents and the environment directly adjacent to Yarnell. These dumps were such that in many instances the retardant was even atop homes in the small community. Yarnell inhabitants were by census before the retardant exposure listed at 645. The population in only 6 years has been reduced by more than 200 residents, the deaths generally due to heart attack, cancers and lung issues. Of course we know this is highly skewed since the aver deaths of National Statistics in the US should figure out to about 6 people per year in a population of 645. Here of course we are only addressing deaths and not the many illnesses that people are down with–a goodly number I witness in the two years after the 2013 fire, including my own demise from a heart attack and subsequent ones resulting in 6 heart stents, during that period before moving away from the area.
I believe my move from the area saved my life yet after the extreme exposure to the retardant including the over 100 hikes through the retardant dumps with Joy Collura and her contacts and willingness to tour wild land fire fighters and other interested persons including media and friends of the wild land fire fighters, I personally had my lung capacity and breathing compromised to the point that I could often find myself so out of breath and with chest pains to the point I was checking into the hospital in full symptoms of more heart attacks. The result was several excursions by catheter to my heart yet the six heart stents had opened my veins up enough to find that the symptoms were due more to lung issues than heart.
But I was fortunate except that also I have since had rampant increase in skin cancers–after nine that almost all required Mohs surgery and many stitches I am still in line in the next few weeks to remove again another that has quickly advanced. I have before the fire had many cancers removed, generally by freezing with nitrogen, but never by such quickly advancing cancers and those requiring much tissue removal and many stitches. For those not familiar with Mohs surgery, it is where the doctor removes the cancer and is able to within thirty minutes or so determine whether he got it all. If not, which happened generally with me, he/she puts you back on the operating table and removes more tissue to again see if the cancer was all removed. So you might wind up with two or more cutting sessions but that is better than going home then having to return a few weeks later to again do the surgery. I am an long time hard rock miner and over two years of that was in Uranium mining so I did have much exposure to radiation. However, never until the exposure to the phosphates, ammonium and hidden and trade secret chemicals in the Phos Chek retardant had I such rampant cancer problems. The main chemicals in retardant is dangerous enough, but do you trust the hidden chemicals allowed by trade secret laws? I do not, but the politicians are happy to allow these dumps on citizens and they mostly have nothing but a high school knowledge of chemistry if any at all–and after all these billion dollar industries do help get these officials elected and add to that even lobby hell out of them. How often do these politicians have a hundred grand found in their freezers? It sometimes happens.
I am still a survivor, even after my dog shot me in the back with a 12 guage point blank range and with the right lung pierced splintered clavical, three ribs cracked and an ounce of lead shot I still carry dispersed about my chest. You might say it is a wonder, and it is but despite my injuries, I am concerned because I know that even Joy Collura in her younger age suffers illness that she does not deserve. She had hiked over 900 times with people interested in the route and reason behind the 19 deaths of the Granite Mountain Hot Shot Crew. But you must understand that neither she nor I understood the danger of hikes through retardant contaminated areas. But neither did Zack Ashoor, 29, but taxed with asthma understand, now deceased. Neither did the 200 hundred residents of Yarnell who are deceased since the retardant dumps, mostly elderly with taxed immune systems, nor the other residents there, many with illnesses they can not account for.
Now of course these are my opinions, and you are more than welcome in this free America to your own and if you like breathing and polluting the environment with this crap–have at it–the government is more than willing to provide the retardant with plenty of pretty Agent Orange looking media displays to entertain you with.
However, thousands of dead fish, dead ocean zones and sick and dead humans may they haunt these polluters. And if you think I am ignorant of the facts, go see the statistics to heart failure and other diseases our hero fire fighters suffer–much like the Yarnell guinea pig statistics.
I am one that does not like being a lab rat, yet that is how I feel I have been treated. But my ignorance was corrected once I saw that I was not the only one getting sick and I started doing some research–something anyone can do–simply go on line to start with and look at the images of thousands of dead fish on the beaches in Florida after phosphate mine leakage —the main ingredient in Phos Chek for a wake up starter.
If you study a something like 30 page documentary made by the PhD Fire Scientists Wooten and Morrison on the Yarnell Wild Fire, you will see that the retardant useless in Yarnell–the destruction was the same had no retardant been used and the advance of the fire was hindered very little if none due to the high winds. The hundreds of thousands of gallons of retardant did nothing but pollute the town and environment about it yet it did line some pockets and add to the industry giants profits. Will they give a shit about the lives and environment they tainted? Will they go visit Gary Olson, hero and long time wild land fire fighter crew boss now lying on his sick bed? I would suspect their happiness is in some grand meeting drinking wine and toasting to the uptake in stock prices of the retardant and chemical industries due to the increased wild fire incidents.
It goes without saying that the wild land fire fighter exposed to these retardant chemicals is highly underpaid, yet he does not know it no more than the Uranium Miner knew he was underpaid. He will only recognize it in time since even the young ones will eventually suffer the horrible effects of the chemicals they are exposed to. Once age takes its toll on the immune system the chemicals begin their horror works of destroying good health with heart, lung and cancer disease, often all combined. The retardant and chemical companies and Forest Officials and Political Hacks that all gain from this financially and politically will deny that the evidence as long as they can. Only those that know and suffer will front the battle to stop these disastrous retardant dumps.
One of the reasons I thought to post this morning–it is cold outside and I wanted to delay my daily hike until it warms a bit, but more that I had a person that is doing a true documentary on the Yarnell Fire deaths–I do hope he will also include some about the actual effects on the life, death and suffering of Yarnellites after the wild fires of 2013 and 2016 and the retardant inundation of that little village of mostly retired folk.
This man is connected with some very astute and well funded movie producers and was in company with a wild land fire fighter investigator and a long time wild land fire fighter official with impeccable character and indesputable wild land fire fighting credentials. Of course there is quite a long list of individuals of high standing in the wild land fire fighting community that are involved in this ongoing documentary and revelation of the truth of the fire and its causes, coverups and new revelations after the years of investigations and expositions have come to light. I was glad to speak to the issue, not as a wild land fire fighter, but as one of the actual witnesses that was there at the fire edge, watched the wild fire evolve into a mega fire and stood with Joy Collura at the very spot on the two track where the GMHS crew descended only a short time before they decended to their demise.
I am not a wild land fire fighter–my experience during my youth and only that of helping my Dad clear out debris around burning pine trees hit by lightening strikes.
He had a tent dwelling and mining tools to protect in the Burro Mountains out of Silver City, New Mexico and we managed to contain those fires by our crude methods. I have often wondered how the Forest Service Mangaged to not contain a lightening strike in an easier location to go to and even in a bouldery area less vialble than in a dry pine forest loaded with pine needles and farther from our camp than what was at Yarnell where even a two track road navagatible by quads would take you within 50 yards or so of the strike? Common sense goes a long ways, yet the education of these men that costs them many man hours and in some cases thousands of tax dollars or their own to educate them also failed them. Cowboy Rick McKinsey might have also said if you fellows can’t handle a lightning strike let us know, and I will get that old hard rock miner Tex Gilligan and we will damn sure get it out before it spreads.
But for the documentary, the world does not need my unexperienced wild land fire fighter input. This man needs the men who have hands on experience and were there when burns were being done during the Yarnell Fire.and other information pertinent to the cause of the deaths of the Yarnell Fire as well as practices they know that need to be changed that caused the needless deaths of the GMHS crew. There is so much that was avoided, redacted, and misstated in order to preserve reputations and make the incident look like and accident versus the real truth of it being negligent action that caused the killing of the Granite Mountain Hot Shots.
Any witness or person of concern that testifies in the documentary won’t be ashamed or afraid to talk the truth because they will be standing with men and women of years of wild land fire fighting experience, some with direct experience of the Yarnell fire and knowledge of the cause of death of the 19, and others with as such experience as lead investigators in wild land fire deaths that there will be no fear of retribution. Many of these men have over 20, even 30 years experience managing wild land fire crews, fighting wild land fires, smoke jumping and college degrees as well up to PhD levels so that just as an astronaut would tell your or a five star General–you know you are being spoken to from a person that has wisdom and integrity.
Some do not know that Congress passed a law that mum orders become void when they involve covering up actions that turned out to be for the pupose of covering the truth or for criminal actions. You can not be prosecuted for breaking the mum order–it is invalid under those conditions. That was why so many militalry and astronauts came forward with information concerning what they saw such as unidentified objects following them in space and what they saw while on the moon. Once the law was passed it allowed for freedom of expression–something in America that ought not be throttled anyway but a means by where by excuse of supposed National Security issues information could be hidden from public view. The tax payer is considered a security risk–and is especially if they find out they have been used as a dunce crowd and kept in the dark and lied to by the hacks using their hard earned tax dollars.
I believe if truth become known about the retardant toxins and the deaths of wild land fire fighters such as the carless causes of the 19GMHS crew, not only will the issues be addressed to stop these type deaths, but wild land and other fire fighting wages will at least triple with the health benefits absolutely available and free as first options for these men. You only have to look at Fire Fighter statics in illness and death to know they are high above the normal working person death, especially concerning heart, lung and cancer incidences. Chemical exposure is high with these men whether in wild land fires or in urban fires. Like the Uranium miner, the health factors are played down, but then profits–as Trump would say–you are a looser if you can’t show finantial gain—and environment and health is a secondary if a consideration at all. Too many have this attitude until they lie on their early death beds and realized they had believed the lies about how inert these chemicals are because they did not show their death dealing effects until that person’s immune factors were in a depleted state.
So if you want to join the many that reject the idea that 19 men died because of an accident and that retardant is really an inert chemical you can have for sprinkles on your breakfast cereal, then add your name to the list and perhaps became a live part of the new documentary that I knew would eventually evolve about the truth of the ongoing sickness and deaths of Yarnellites and the demise of 19 young brave souls at Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
I suggest a good contact is through Joy Collura and her website to be a part of the upcoming documentary or even post here –the truth will make you free but it will even do more, it will save some young lives and certainly many elder lives as well-maybe even your own friends or grandfolks.
Happy Trails around the retardant toxic zones.
When your religi0n is money and you have little concern about the environment and what the pollutants are doing to the health of the people and the environment then you do not belong as a leader in any country. Certainly we want our folk to be financially sound and well taken care of to have a decent abode and health benefits but blatant disregard for the environment and issues involving toxins causing rampant cancer and heart disease need immediate and strong measure to cure the problem.
When our politicos and media present lies to get us into wars to protect oil at the expense of thousands of our own soldiers lives and health then those politicians and media and other people involved have committed war crimes and do deserve to stand before a world court action. My opinion, if truth would come out that starting with Trump and going to Franklin Roosevelt, these men would be war criminals–some worse than others for how they caused millions of deaths both civilian and military for reasons of economy and unjustified reasons or for reasons they had created by false flag information. Pirates used a false flag to get close to a ship acting as a friendly before they raised their Skull and Bones flag and did their actual purpose–to maime, kill, rape and plunder. The Skull and Bones flag is still flying under the guise of the American Flag in too many instances. Bernie Madoff comes in many forms and guises–nicely suited and sweet until you see the real Bernie and his cohorts.
It seems like we could blame presidents and corporate media journalists for the situations and propaganda to divert the truth form the common masses. But they are truly bought and owned by giant corporations that operate world wide. I can tell you that if you are my employer I will have to look over your ways and in some cases even be a part of your means to provide me my living wage. If I am in a position that arguing with my boss is going to cost my children to go hungry or the loss of my home and reputation then I might fudge my real feelings to stay solvent.
When Steed argued with Marsh he knew he was entering into something he did not want to do–that is get into a situation that could and did cause the demise of himself and his crew. There was a possibility, although slim that he would get to the Helms Ranch and then possibly to Yarnell to possibly help save some burning structures. Maybe he thought there was at least a roulette spin of the pistol change that he could make it before the fire changed direction–after all Marsh had made it earlier but now the odds were slimmed by time. The roulette pistol had already been spun by Marsh so more spins meant a lesser chance to not hit the bullet–but you can die even on the first spin. Yet if you keep spinning you eventually will die.
Steed had to say boys It looks bad and a damn risky thing to do but Boss Man wants us to do it. Hell he took the risk and made it–what do you say? Hell yeah, we ain’t cowards, if he can spin the cylinder and not hit a bullet, we can too. Well if we don’t our whole outfit will look like it has suffered subordination and are derelict of duty on what we know even better than wild land fire fighting–structure fire fighting. We are game to take the risk and what the hell, these fire blankets saved us before so we can at the worse suffer some uncomfortable burn over that may injure us some but we will make it through.
Donut did not know the technicalities of fire fighting–things like simple common sense rules to keep you alive. He had no idea that fires double in velocity every 10degrees in elevation rise or that manzanita fires have no problem melting lead and reaching temperatures at 1500 degree levels and that manzanita fires take on thin fire protection blankets like bed sheets at those temperatures. He could tell you good weed from bad weed and the difference in Johhny red and Johnny black. But technical details and safety concerns belong to the bosses. He did not even know they had put him in the worse position possible for a look out and disappeared leaving him to his own devices alone and about to be killed along separate to the rest of the crew.
Yet Steed was bound like the President is to those that bought him into power. Steed had to strictly obey orders on a daily basis–even though he knew he would be the last man holding the fate of his crew. A risk of those young live under his direction–or the alternative the risk of his reputation as a fire fighter who does not take orders from superiors, something that can cause great harm to your career. The men considered him the “Greek God” of fire fighting. They trusted his judgement and if he said we can make it, but risky–they said we will go if you go. They did, they died.
The question is how do you break such group think? It is almost like a mass mind thing–despite the dangers–if one man that has respect says so, it must be so–or if it is the thing to do then we do it without question.
This is where you absolutely need a Dr. Ted Putnam and people he would involve to change things. Dr. Ted is worth a million dollars a year to educate people–15 years smoke jumping, a life saver in several instances of other men, especially those of Donut fire fighter abilities and understanding, and even a refusal to sign off as lead investigator on 14 lives that were killed during the Storm King wild land fire simply because he knew that the investigation was too cursory and did not cover the things needed to insure these situations did not recur. Despite his threat to his career he stood fast in integrity. Superiors said it was enough–the investigation had to be cut short. Time was wasting. So despite Dr. Putnam’s credentials, years of fire fighting experience and now PhD in Psychology–he was skirted and the investigation closed even at his protest. But Ted’s wisdom was true–the event repeated several times and eventually in a few short years big time at Yarnell with 19 deaths of the GMHS crew.
The truth I have written above would not be allowed on main media. John Daugherty has tasted some of the ill effects off telling the truth and exposing the godless gods that mangle the lives of people and environment so he is not one to censure unless he sees that it is a lie–and as a journalist and investigator he has a very good inherent lie detector. It is the small media outlets that are not bought out but detested by larger outlets because here truth is not throttled.
I could see when some great Journalists retired such as Dan Rather and a long time New York Times Editor–they lamented about how they were subjects of greater forces they could not oppose–their writings were not always the way they wanted to say things and things they wanted to say could not be said because they were in business and owned by corporate interests. You could not give the rest of the story if it was not allowed despite what Paul Harvey claimed.
But I must assure you, errors here are not intentional and are corrected by the expertise of many years of experiences of wild land fire fighters that have learned their wisdom by being on the fire fighting lines. When they speak, we must listen. Not to will cost the lives of more wild land fire fighters. Thanks to John and his Investigative Media you are getting the “Rest of the Story”.
Charlie says comment on December 12:
Your analysis of why GMHS left the safety of the black and followed Eric Marsh’s orders to go to BSR rings truthful to me.
I have also wondered if an analysis has been proposed what the outcome could have been if there had been no burnout in the Shrine area.
Sonny- they have a winner!
Preparedness Notes for Sunday — June 30, 2019
JAMES WESLEY RAWLES JUNE 30, 2019
SurvivalBlog Writing Contest
Today we present another entry for Round 83 of the SurvivalBlog non-fiction writing contest. The more than $12,000 worth of prizes for this round include:
First Prize:
A $3,000 gift certificate towards a Sol-Ark Solar Generator from Veteran owned Portable Solar LLC. The only EMP Hardened Solar Generator System available to the public.
A Gunsite Academy Three Day Course Certificate. This can be used for any one, two, or three day course (a $1,095 value),
A course certificate from onPoint Tactical for the prize winner’s choice of three-day civilian courses, excluding those restricted for military or government teams. Three day onPoint courses normally cost $795,
DRD Tactical is providing a 5.56 NATO QD Billet upper. These have hammer forged, chrome-lined barrels and a hard case, to go with your own AR lower. It will allow any standard AR-type rifle to have a quick change barrel. This can be assembled in less than one minute without the use of any tools. It also provides a compact carry capability in a hard case or in 3-day pack (an $1,100 value),
Two cases of Mountain House freeze-dried assorted entrees in #10 cans, courtesy of Ready Made Resources (a $350 value),
A $250 gift certificate good for any product from Sunflower Ammo,
American Gunsmithing Institute (AGI) is providing a $300 certificate good towards any of their DVD training courses.
Second Prize:
A gift certificate from Quantum Harvest LLC (up to a $2,200 value) good for 12% off the purchase of any of their sun-tracking models, and 10% off the purchase price of any of their other models.
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A Glock form factor SIRT laser training pistol and a SIRT AR-15/M4 Laser Training Bolt, courtesy of Next Level Training, which have a combined retail value of $589,
A Three-Day Deluxe Emergency Kit from Emergency Essentials (a $190 value),
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An assortment of products along with a one hour consultation on health and wellness from Pruitt’s Tree Resin (a $265 value).
Third Prize:
Three sets each of made-in-USA regular and wide-mouth reusable canning lids. (This is a total of 300 lids and 600 gaskets.) This prize is courtesy of Harvest Guard (a $270 value)
A Royal Berkey water filter, courtesy of Directive 21 (a $275 value),
Expanded sets of both washable feminine pads and liners, donated by Naturally Cozy (a $185 retail value),
Two Super Survival Pack seed collections, a $150 value, courtesy of Seed for Security, LLC,
Mayflower Trading is donating a $200 gift certificate for homesteading appliances.
Round 83 ends on July 31st, so get busy writing and e-mail us your entry. Remember that there is a 1,500-word minimum, and that articles on practical “how to” skills for survival have an advantage in the judging.
————————————————————
Thursday, December 5, 2019 8:58 PM, James Rawles wrote:
The winner of Round 47 was Sophie for “Prepping the Texas Cowboy Way”, posted on July 12, 2013.
Regards,
– Jim Rawles
———————————————-
h t t p s://survivalblog.c o m/prepping-the-texas-cowboy-way-by-sophie/
Fact is stranger than fiction–that sounded interesting–something I did not do but I can imagine that there were some interesting stories.
I will send you some UFO pictures and you know I am about the worst photographer with a cell phone with my fumbling manner. Some of us old guys can manipulate a slide rule that kids say what the hell is that thing. We even know how to use a logarithm book and that book is a relic now. But oddly trying to manipulate a cell phone to make it take photos is not so easily done with all the little hard to see do dads on it–so I usually take a photo of myself first then fumble around trying to figure out how to get the damn thing to photograph the other way. I once turned the phone around and tried to punch the button on the other side–whew kids are so quick with these. But computers and phones are getting better and soon I will just have to say take the photo the other way not my own–government has enough of them already–you will give them a photo every time you go to town here since you must check in at the border patrol station on I-10. What ever happened to the probable cause to stop law? I-10 is beginning to look like coming out of Juarez–a log jam of cars lined up=sometimes for a mile. Shit talk about Trump making America Great Again–this is America and wouldn’t it be great to use a freeway without having to be checked to see if you are an illegal here on a main Interstate? If they can’t catch these illegals at the border or the dope runners then what the hell are you going to gain by a few illegals you catch at these points. Once in a while I see them having some car pulled over that the dog sniffed and it is usually college aged kids that likely were smoking a joint and now will have to spend time in the hoosegal. The real runners are smart and get around these points with a hell of a lot of better methods than playing a fool and running though a check point like that with all its tech and dogs and ten government agents.
There are in fact dirt routes around and I sometimes take them–never stopped but I did once watch some U hauls going around on a rough dirt road and the border patrolman that was on the road did not bother to inspect me or that outfit behind me. I wondered if there was a collusion there but what the hell–I am not one to interfere in federal business concerning dope. They likely are not Iran Contra affairs and if they are you best leave it alone. The CIA is very unforgiving for any exposures and Jerry Tefoya, who was a former friend got 9 years after shooting that dissident Arab in the eye with a 22 pistol up in Colorado. He kept telling them he was CIA–but they did not know him. Well I did and I can tell you that former Green Beret whose Dad was New Mexico State Cop was not a bullshitter and but he and his buddies were serious animals. Fact is always stranger than fiction because we can’t expect it to be the way it often turns out. Of course Jerry got a decent sentence even though the CIA denied they knew him–and he was soon out and working with some small news paper. I don’t know if he is still around –a few years older than me but I would not want to mess with him or his buddies even these days.
So Happy Trails–And may God and Trump do a good job at making America greater–God forbid we have anymore golf courses unless you do it right–desert sand dunes–we have enough in New Mexico and Arizona–no grass or use of water and no pesticides, herbicides –just insert those flags and glass cups and yell fore. Hire some homeless guy to clean the cups now and again and drag those bags around for the snoot or non-snoot. It can be done and the greatestest mass of Americans will say great and if Trump does it that way he might even gain votes. Just a suggestion–and I did find a golf ball 3 miles south of me so who the hell is playing desert golf?
Happy trails and desert golfing.
OK so I have been watching UFO situation here but I knew about it and told my true experience. It was strange that the final false flag event such as we saw at the Twin Towers will according to Werner Van Braun on his death bed–would be a staged alien invasion that would bring in the final total control of nations under one small ruling body. Now why on his death bed would Werner–a man with intelligence and genius who had worked under Hitler and understood methods and governments beside his Rocket Science–say something like that?
Of course the dollar bill has in Latin plain language for the Americans to understand–NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM- and above the pyramid the all seeing eye–the gods that will rule to complete the pyramid. So when Bush family would say as nearly every president has said–New World Order–they were just quoting your dollar. And who are these gods that already have a good hold on the world–just not quite done with the finishing touches. These of course are the 1% you never much hear about –those Rothsheild, Morgan, Rockefeller types who own the banks, giant corporations and world banks. And some of us really believe we are a democracy and our vote make one iota of difference. Well it does if in your mind think it does but only for you and not the way the 1% have it figured out.
I kind of liked how the French president gave some working over of Trump–and Trump knows the powers that be can and will tone him down–He is a little cog with a big ego.
But other than that I was looking how the powers that be–Australian and British in the New Guinea area had torn into the little country stealing the resources and leaving behind an open pit mine and mess ruining the water and environment for a people there and leaving them in poverty and worse straits with nothing to show for the rape of their country but a copper and chemical laden river that is now devoid of fish and even had extincted the flying fox. Australia is pumping some money back in to their credit but also they want to reopen the mine while the indigenous people are generally against it. Aren’t we a nice country since we do as much and go into countries with the same methods and never mind the killing of thousands of our own young men and women–and especially never mind killing millions of Arabs because we “need?” their oil. And our lying ass corporate bankers and oil men are so damn worried they will be found out because the technology to divorce us from such murderous acts and destruction that threatens the life of the planet is known. Their refusal and knowledge puts them on the high crimes list of war criminals no better than we saw at the Nuremburg Nazi trials. I heard Bush accuse the Iraqui’s to be equal to Nazi’s and then he goes in and kills millions and destroys the country and our young men are brought home in body bags–Hey the facts speak for themselves and Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Muhammad Obama, and a host of other Presidents are just as guilty–and every one spoke of the New World Order many times with Reagan and Eisenhower even speaking to the idea that we need to understand that we may be up against the greatest of all terrible situations–a war against alien invaders.
OK so sign me up for the nut list if you haven’t already done so–take an oil bath while you are at it–certain to kill bugs. But I did get stopped by the border patrol last night just after leaving my gate and I had to call the commander after since I am a known Zombie in the area for the dog shooting. He said they do not need any probable cause==if they want to pull you over and treat you like a common criminal then they can go at it no matter if you are the mayor or just a bloke. Bush and his Twin Tower Destruction and now the Patriot Act to harass patriots.
So this was supposed to inform you I did video tonight some undeniable UFO activity. I am hoping Joy can put some of the videos on her site. I do notice the mother ship has as many as a dozen babies and the mother ship at least avoids being over Ft. Bliss but is not too far away across the border into Mexico. These are fun photos–night time and some of the lights given off are out of this world.
They are not orbs but in a few do appear that way but mostly the classical saucer shape with dome all lighted up nicely for the world to see–why I was out with my pickup last night –mama ship was headed west early but after a bit I went out nd she and babies had move instead back to the West South of El Paso. For some reason they like the area to the SW of me–highly volcanic region and desolation of desert for hundreds of miles. But a few of those trillions Cheney verified are unaccountable for must have back engineered the balloon that fell at Roswell so that it works well enough to move around like a Movie Space Patrol.
Happy Trails–Get your tin fold hat ready.
correction back to the east and south of me and now I just went out and it is 12:30 for Sat. Dec 7 2019–new day and I started filming this since dusk and now this thing is moving back to the West again. Late photos and now some look cigar shape but a disc if thick would look cigar shape then oval and sometimes like a saucer depending on how you looked at it as it turns. This has all shapes in different photos–But what the hell would that thing be looking at and it has to be humongous to be that thick and yet some I would guess 30-40 miles from my sighting point. There is one dimmer in conjunction with it with all those smaller craft. What are they really up to?
Correction–Feds dragged their feet for 7 years instead of 10–no independent investigations were allowed –they said a diesal tank cause the building to collapse–crock but who can question these power mongers.
Joy–when you have virtually every astronaut saying they were dogged with UFO craft on their missions and some, for instance Buzz Aldrin saying he saw structures on the moon and alien craft were there–then either the government is sending crazies up or these men with their hero status and impeccable reputations are bald face liars or what is more reasonable they are telling the truth just as Donut could not and even Blue Ridge could not because they are under strict mum orders. In fact so were the astronauts but legally they know and men of their stature can’t me held back since they are strictly the top Heroes of America. Mess with those fellows and whether you be government high up or even CIA then you would have the masses of American people upon you. So they have no fear like a Blue Ridger would have for his job–and in fact anyone that would ride a piece of junk rocket that is likely to blow up as not–(it did in many instances even killing many (7) in one but even more and also Russian cosmonauts) then you have men of an order of fearlessness at the top of the line only seen in such people as Navy Seals and the like. I should qualify that because just about any person can muster courage in situations even without the training needed to create the ultimate warrior.
I will give you access to any of my UFO photos–these damn things seem to follow me but in truth they are there for all to see–it is just that people don’t look up. You see the afternoon chem trails and those trails that have puffs that look like some bulbs falling down–those are heavy laden with powders of aluminum and barium oxide. I am not certain why they are being put out so often—here the skies get so much by evening you think you live in a haze like we see in the valley.
Las Cruces lives in the Rio Grande Valley so you drop off into a depression and right behind Las Cruces are the Organ Mountains–a place that my Dad was mining gold and had also dug out amethyst crystals–one the size of a small barrel. That area is now all military–any UFO or unidentified aircraft flying over it would immediatel be shot down so these UFO’s are playing a dangerous game unless they belong to the government. I thiink they do and the trillions of tax dollars missing have developed technology under black ops that many say make the star wars and Independence thing look limp. If you take time to research this stuff you get testimony from people that risk reputations that were not easy to come by–I mean becoming a four star general then talking about UFO’s and alien technology and craft and even bodies that the Army and other Military have acquired? You are either loony or else there is something to it. The fact is most of these men–even the astronauts that have testified are generally in my age category–they no longer are under the influences of the powers that be and can speak freely –and who is more brave than an astronaut?
So now to tell you how much we are watched–I am receiving stories on google–Why I Wished I Never Worked for Alex Jones (maybe his dog shot him)–which I have not read but goes to show how quickly we are tracked and fed pertinent information. If I had been on ebay looking at cameras you can bet I would be getting add pop ups on windows trying to sell me a camera. The brain wash is so intense in this age of the internet–and these are my own opinions–ain’t America Great already–you can labelled and still voice your opinion–or can you?
Actually I have not listened to Alex Jones in ages–though I do believe he comes up with some strong and generally verifiable opinions–even facts. Building 7 is a clincher if you know anything at all about how buildings come down and can understand why the government waited ten years to investigate the destruction of it–and only after 1500 engineers signed a petition demanding it. Building 7 was very important and housed the ongoing investigation evidence about the missing tax money that Cheney talked about and Cheney and his ties to Halliburton could talk–It cost the taxpayer a cool Trillion for that Iraqi war and despite Bush saying the Iraqi oil would pay us back –we knew that was a line of shit–the American taxpayer wound up paying for the war crimes our leaders instigated over there. Colin Powell was good at lying right along with the Bush Bunch. But I would guess that most Americans would say these are conspiracy theories and they are since these are things that would be classed as that–conspiracies. But with the ownership of main media, it is easy to fool the masses– My opinions-radical to be sure but sometime look up the meaning of radical–some like to look at the facts.
Did you remember Bush involved with the children in a school when an agent came in and whispered in his ear about the twin tower being hit with a hijacked airliner full of Americans ?
What did he do? From a Psychologist point of view his reaction would say he already knew something about the ordeal. An appropriate reaction would have been to immediately get up and tell the class I am sorry your President has an emergency to handle and leave to do that–or something appropriate in such an “act of war”. The Jersey Girls came up with that one and their insistent and reasonable questions were never answered except as I remember on the order of 10% leaving them as many of the GMHS with doubts and questions. These are my opinions –you enjoy your own.
Happy Trails–get out your tin foil hats.
Enough is Enough: Just Leave the Line
( https://firesafemt.org/news/2013-10-02-enough-is-enough/ )
” Just Leave the Line
By Robert Mutch: Chair, Painted Rocks-West Fork FireSafe Council
“On the Dude Fire in Arizona, 1990, 6 firefighters died in their fire shelters while trying to save homes.
“On the Esperanza Fire in California, 2006, 5 Forest Service firefighters from Engine 57 died while trying to save the unoccupied Octagon House.
“On the Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona, 2013, 19 firefighters from the Granite Mountain Hotshots died in or near their fire shelters while trying to save homes.”
“… A posting at the Wildfire Today website on July 5, 2013, said: “The fact is that firefighting is dangerous and deaths are unavoidable even if protocol is followed to the letter.”
The Wildfire Today “… even if protocol is followed to the letter” must be based on the SAIT-SAIR conclusion of finding ” NO INDICATION OF NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS ACTIONS, OR VIOLATIONS OF POLICY OR PROTOCOL. ” (emphasis added) SAIT-SAIR (2013) p. 4.
“These comments shed light on an unfortunate belief that is all too prevalent in some wildland firefighting circles. This longstanding belief equates wildland firefighting with war and acknowledges casualties and fatalities as inevitable. When people adopt this stance, their view that death is an inevitable outcome too often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.”
Absolutely fact, that WF and FF deaths are inevitable (due to human factors, errors, and failures on wildland fires, all we can do is reduce them. And full speed Bovine Feculence on the ‘self-fulfilling prophecy’ assertion.
Very good comment–any citizen except maybe one whose house is being threatened by wild fire will tell you please–no not risk your life in any unnecessary manner to try to save structures. First off, no structure existing is worth a human life to save the damn thing. Next, if that person did not have the place defended by what is called defensible space–he/she likely did not give too much value to that property. And finally people that do value homes usually keep up insurance–and those that don’t as in Yarnell will likely get a new home courtesy of good old American generosity. And if my damned tent burns let it burn, I can always build a lean to and I don’t believe in insurance so if this trailer burns let the damn thing burn–don’t stop me from trying to rescue what I want out of it and sorry but I have no feelings for a structure over young lives as we saw the stupidity that went down attempting to protect structures at Yarnell.
Personally I believe insurance policies to be a racket. How do you think the insurance companies came to own so much wealth? This insurance package ought to be for every home owner and come out of a public fund–that wealth should belong to the people not a bunch of sorry insurance companies that you have to sue to get a premium in most cases.
There are just so many things that should be free public services–internet and OS for you computer–Microsoft has made a racket out of it making billionaires for Gates and a few others and it continues with all sorts of scams and new versions even to screwing up your computer so you get angry or buy their shit to keep their shit off your OS. Linux is fine and free and the way it should be and a system I use and judge to be many times as good as Windows—It is upgraded regularly and has very little garbage. I still have windows–I used to use Grub and have both on this fast computer–but I still have windows 10 on my lap top that i have not used in 6 months nor upgraded–though I did turn it on to try to install a disc for my microscope camera–and would you know the damn thing won’t even recognize the disc so I am bound to have to call Microsoft and see the problem or the company that made the camera–you would think a $300 camera would work–well of course it is supposed to work on Linux according to the company and Linux recognizes the Windows disc–so I still have to call the company or spend a little more time screwing with it when I get ready to use it.
It is a game and the public is unaware how they are being rooked in so many ways. Energy is a situation that should be free or near that since I know damn well the technology is there to provide every american home and even the world practically free energy. The fat dogs that run things are not about to allow their oil stocks, interests, and magnates down. They will keep the general public dummed down at all costs. Power and Greed are just too powerful of motivation to overcome and in the main these people are convinced of their good acts for the benefit of mankind. Shit.
Probably the most stupid thing is to put into office a billionaire thinking he is going to look out for the 99% that are not billionaires. There ought to be a law that the rulers can only represent the 99% if they are in that 99% and the lower the rung the better to represent the masses. Billionairs and Trillionairs that are over them represent the 1% they are in–their peer my friends–not your peers. They will continue to pollute, molest and control the masses, and do everything possible to maintain their office of control and make it stronger. Bush was a classic example with his Patriot Act, and Trump an example of giving a shit less about the environment–even forcing his will for more polluting and water draining golf courses on people that had fought him for years to keep the damn things out of their country (Scotland for one but Bosnia and others beside). But he has a beutiful slogan “Make America Great” what with more golf courses and Trump Towers and more billionaires running things.
Lots of parallels with wild land fire fighting incidents. Look at how they gave a shit less about how they took advantage of the loved ones of the 19. And even less that they polluted and killed and sickened so many in Yarnell. These are the elite 1% you vote for–not the 99% masses else every one would be off oil and on free energy technology that exists. But the Bankers, the Corporations and those in charge are not about to allow you to take the country back to the people and not to a bunch of world Bankers living in Europe or anywhere they thing the air is fresher and rubbing shoulders with the oil magnates and Giant Corporate interests that already own the media, the educational system–another corporate deal and even the prisons that some Judges were found to be assuring their stocks would do well by populating hell out of them.
One of my Thesis Papers was published in a Psychology Journal–It was titled Recidivism–
A thesis requires lots of references, lots of thought and time and study–If you have done one you know the game. It was well accepted to be published. I think most psychologists will tell you the prison system only breeds recidivism. They will also agree that our systems–the largest and most loaded in the world are unnecessarily overloaded. Certainly violent crimes and criminals need to be detained–and that includes about 20% of the prison population. There are just too many ways of dealing with the non-violent criminal, yet now that it is a big business on the stock market–do you expect improvement any more than knowing that retardant is killing or making ill our elderly, killing our aquatic life, especially fish, screwing up the environment and creating dead zones that in some instances such as coral reefs will never be replenished> If you do then you have more faith in the Trillionaire, Billionaire ruler class than I do.
And you will not find a media that will allow such posting as I did above except a few that truly are honest and concerned about the people and environment and truth. Even Internet is hard and now your Trillionaire-Billionaire rulers are doing everything possible to make sure they control information, know everything about the citizen and with these contents know exactly who to extract already–but a few of us old Zombies will haunt them and a few fearless Journalists and witnesses of wrongdoing will add to their miseries.
Happy Trails.
Sometimes reading your posts is like watching an automobile accident in slow motion over and over, hoping for a good outcome this time but it never materializes.
Woodsman,
Here’s one for you from July 1, 2013. Pretty quick to get an article out like this one.
High Velocity Human Factors
Preventing Tragedies in Wildland Fire Fighting
( http://hvhfsciences.blogspot.com/2013/07/preventing-tragedies-in-wild-land-fire.html )
Woodsman
Do you mean rts comment or Charlie?
I know mine can be
Time and facts may possibly remove the scales from our eyes–keep on with the facts and some more may see the light. It is of course a great effort to remove oneself from the web of convention. If you want to entertain a belief or perpetrate a lie even in your own life repeat it 21 times–and the more authoritative the stronger the implant. This is Psychology 101–sort of like Pavlov putting windows in dog’s stomach to see that it salivated if you rang a bell along with the feeding–even after stopping the food–ring the bell and the dog salivates. A cowboy could have told him that and the formula to square a circle also–but I got my A in 101 anyway.
Woodsman,
If sometimes reading my posts are like watching an automobile accident in slow motion over and over, hoping for a good outcome this time but it never materializes, then maybe it’s about time for you to get with Joy A. Collura to post your own on her Yarnell Hill Fire Revelations website.
I’m sure you could do better.
Check this one out, especially the “all 19 were found together” photo. ( https://azdhs.gov/documents/preparedness/emergency-preparedness/conferences/2015/fatalities/Maricopa-Mass-Fatality-Yarnell-Fire.pdf )
And interesting references were pursuing
And this one from the Archive Wayback Machine
( https://web.archive.org/web/20140912053140/http://www.azfamily.com/video/?id=265221861&ref=rcvidmod&sec=906678 )
Remember Pearl Harbor day
The ” Firefighter who was at Yarnell Hill recalls tragedy, aftermath ” link (the main article) is the only link that is valid. All others are not
Thanks for the links & sorry for the drive-by.
Holloway Fire Zuni Hot Shot (filler) Fire Shelter Deployment (2012) video published by Wildland Fire LLC – November 10, 2018 (This seems like a long time between the incident and these recent lessons learned)
“Fire Shelter Deployments: Stories and Common Insights” is a program developed by the US Forest Service Missoula Technology and Development Center (MTDC) that will help you understand what you may experience in a fire shelter deployment.
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43_lZQI31jM )
Let’s avoid discussing or talking about the Standard Firefighting Orders, LCES, or the Watch Out Situations that got you into that predicament, so we’ll just instead talk about using your Fire Shelter and the need to share your stories with others.
The NWCG “Fire Shelter Deployments: Stories and Common Insights” program is a joke because it treats fire shelter deployments as a success! I thought utilizing the Rules of Engagement toward Entrapment Avoidance were the goal and the true success stories.
The 2012 Holloway Fire Shelter Deployment video comments are pretty nauseating applauding her for being a hero and more for using her fire shelter, a “last resort” option.
I believe that the GMHS, also on this Holloway Fire, were adversely influenced by the surprising “success” of this shelter deployment; similar fuel type, similar topography, initially – similar fire behavior, and then ….
Now consider this from former USFS Fire Director Jerry Williams about the Rules of Engagement
One key challenge is the need to shrewdly draw lessons from the past and use them in a smart and useful way. Compare this duplicitous and very misleading “Progressive Thinkers” mindset to “Old School” WF worldview in 2002. Jerry Williams, the former Director of Fire and Aviation Management, USDA Forest Service, Washington Office, Washington, DC, wrote an article for Fire Management Today (Issue 62, pp. 31-35) that specifically addresses the value of the Fire Orders. What follows is based on remarks made by the him at the National Fire and Aviation Management Meeting from February 25 to March 1, 2002, in Scottsdale, AZ. It is most unfortunate that the USFS has strayed far and wide from this man’s sage counsel.
In other words, this germane wildland fire information and these valuable lessons learned that Mr. Williams offered in 2002, were clearly available to ALL WFs and FFs engaged in wildland firefighting in 2013, including the GMHS. Apparently, all others on the YH Fire that day followed Mr. William’s sage advice. Similarly, literally tens of thousands of WFs and FFs engaged in wildland firefighting effectively utilize them every single fire season. This is NOT hindsight bias! Go to
( https://www.fs.fed.us/sites/default/files/fire-management-today/62-4.pdf ) and then scroll down to the “Next Steps in Wildland Fire Management” on pages 31-35.
“Firm Rules of Engagement
“The Ten Standard Firefighting Orders must be firm rules of engagement. They cannot be simple guidelines, and they cannot be “bargained.” They are the result of hard-learned lessons. Compromising one or more of them is a common denominator of all tragedy fires. On the Dude, South Canyon, and Thirtymile Fires, the Fire Orders were ignored, overlooked, or otherwise compromised. (Williams 2002)
“The Fire Orders mean little after we are in trouble. That is why we must routinely observe them and rely on them before we get into trouble. We know that no fire shelter can ensure survival all of the time under all circumstances. Entrapment avoidance must be our primary emphasis and our measure of professional operational success. (Williams 2002)
“Conditions on the fireline can rapidly change. In the pressure of the moment, it is easy for people to overlook something important. That is why we must encourage our firefighters to speak up when they notice safety being compromised. As Weick and Sutcliffe point out, “people who refuse to speak up out of fear enact a system that knows less than it must to remain effective.” We must promote a working environment where even our greenest firefighters feel free to speak up. (Williams 2002)
“Following an accident, a “stand-down” should be an accepted practice for those involved, until the facts can be sorted out. However, it is a shame that our focus on accountability too often occurs after an accident. Culturally, we must shift the weight of accountability to the time before an accident takes shape. We must embrace the rules of engagement as a way of doing business—as a professional standard. Violation of any Fire Order must prompt management or supervisory intervention and, unless rapidly corrected, be unarguable grounds for release from the fireline, release from the incident, or – if egregious – serious personnel action. (Williams 2002)
“However, we must not adhere to the Fire Orders for fear of punishment. We must embrace the Fire Orders because we owe it to one another. In that sense, the Fire Orders must become a shared obligation, where the leader’s situational awareness depends on participation by the entire crew and where the crew’s participation is tempered with respect for the leader’s responsibility. Borrowing from the aviation community’s model of Cockpit/ Crew Resource Management, we must focus fireline operations more on what is right than on who is right.” (Williams 2002)
And once again, the challenge is still out there to provide even one wildland fire where the Fire Orders were followed and the 18 Watch Outs were utilized and mitigated, and a WF or FF was killed by the wildfire.
https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfThe10StandardFirefightingOrders
I tried to tell some of you fossils that the orders were rearranged over the years & I got crickets…looking at you, Bob. In 1987 order #1 was Fight fire aggressively having provided for safety first. I remember from surplus training materials. This was done to spell out the mnemonic “FIREORDERS” to attempt to make them easier to remember. Like everything government, they’ve can leave it alone & constantly change things.
There are 2 camps regarding the 10 standard fire orders: there are those that believe they are hard rules which must be followed and there are those that believe they are guidelines. I have personally spent many hours studying & thinking about this situation. (I lean into the RULES category) While I believe that they are a type of contractual agreement amongst firefighters and fire managers, I also believe Dr. Putnam has made a series of very significant points in his research, primarily while I can readily admit that following them is the key to wildland firefighter survival, they can at the same time secondarily serve management’s desire for blame post-tragedy to be assigned places “other than management. ”
All that being said, this begs the question, which camp do you believe GMIHC stood within? Rules or Guidelines? One camp will certainly increase the odds of tragedy striking, in my opinion in most situations.
It’s a tough one. Although it sounds like an easy call to make there’s a lot of human psychology involved in risk management and the decision making process. “Expectations of Management “, for one. The desires of management can kill you, folks.
Alright! It’s not “a tough one.” Don’t do stupid shit and you’ll be OK most of the time. Sorry, everybody. The truth is the truth. RIP, guys. I hope and pray for comfort for those who grieve. I wish it all didn’t turn out the way it did, but it did, so…
I think the GMHS had their own camp – neither orders or guidelines
I think if just one of you who gave me your account that was there the last 18 minutes signed my release waiver form then we can go more in details there.
I think as I awoke sobbing today because if only those people spoke – after you hear it through you will get why I await those release signatures.
But I firmly have thought and fought with RTS on the Orders because Dr Tedd made sense on Guidelines so it could be either or is how I took it for years yet if they were followed the ten like an order and as well investigated with accountability in such manners than we would have less injuries and deaths and more punished and more responsibility for your actions
Happy Holidays Woodsman
And am I correct to assume you can’t divulge what this “3rd camp” is that GMIHC fell into that was neither “rules” or “guidelines” until you get permission from others? If not, what kind of “camp” would you call it?
Happy Holidays to you as well, Joy.
I asked a rhetorical question because obviously based on past issues that people have testified about AND McDonoughs claim that the rules are “hillbilly” and they were operating in some advanced dimension that the remainder of us need to get with the program on, GMIHC was in the “guidelines ” camp. What else could it possibly be?
If it was some rules some of the time, that’s guidelines, for example. If you make up your own rules then the accepted general principles of wildland firefighting (standard orders) are merely guidelines. I’m having a difficult time imagineering another camp besides:
1. RULES. Don’t bend em don’t break em
AND
2. GUIDELINES. We’ll follow em if we want, maybe
Inquiring minds want to know.
Woodsman,
Fossils ey, WTF is that all about?
I think the GMHS selectively followed the Ten Standard Fire Orders and LCES while also selectively heeding or ignoring and failing to mitigate the Watch Out Situations.
The August 2012 Holloway Fire in northern NV and southern OR was a classic case involving NUMEROUS near misses without actually learning any valuable “complete” lessons from any of them – with the typical GMHS response of ‘we’re [GM] and we think we can pull it off.’
And likely also because of “The Prescott Way” based on PFD Wildland Battallion Chief Will (former PFD Chief) comments during the July 2013 News Conference video stating something to the effect that (PARAPHRASING HERE) ‘the GMHS had LCES, however, when you’re on the move you don’t always have those standards in place’ and two of my all-time favorites – ‘no wildland firefighter is satisfied sitting in a safety zone doing nothing while the fire progresses below them’ and “firefighter safety was a last resort.’
Woodsman,
YH Fire Report and Twitter Analysis and Public Opinion with “fire expert” Jim Paxon drinking the YH Fire kool-aid and nauseatingly taking the Party Line and standing on it and he’s totally disagreeing with you!
( http://cyberspaceandtime.com/80tkfi8yXdQ.video+related )
I’d be much more interested in reading an opinion of a person who’s not an entrenched bureaucrat. I stopped the video when the “hindsight bias” and “armchair quarterback” terms were throw out, straight out of the gate btw.. With all due respect, Paxon, you’re part of the problem.
And this is the same guy who says he’s one of the founders of the Arizona Wildfire Academy…the same one originating from Marsh’s living room? If so, I think I see the bias now.
https://www.azbw.com/Jim_Paxon_Joins_AZGFD.php
https://youtu.be/TUNeCgHRY8g
I had a bad health evening so I wanted to have post 1 of 5 out last night yet just got up to get it going Sonny-
I have to travel far to my doctors tomorrow so be in travel mode but Happy Holidays to the world-
There will be some snippets in the post from this video-
I will not be sharing it all that I know on the post because someone who knows it all too said keep that area quiet until we get a signature but I was correct to lead and walk/hike Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair and Michael Kodas and Jim Roth and his lady and Fred and Deanna Thompson (Fire20+) there ages ago-
to all affected by this fire
I want to first hand know this five posts and the more to come has brought much darkness
God is mightier than such
I trust in Him
yet in it, it is the hardest path I have thus far
I feel strongly the first hand people should be the ones doing this
and I am going to start my post with a former IM post’r and their team of disinformation from this Spring 2019
I had to run a lot of my information through the legal areas to ensure I share where it matters versus seeming like an attack on people places and systems – since they are the ones who opened the door, not me.
I am doing it from a pure heart
I think too many inaccurate narrations are out there on me so I am going to explain WHO I AM-
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2019/11/24/Part-1-of-5—Underneath-every-simple-obvious-story-about-human-error%E2%80%99-there-is-a-deeper-more-complex-story—a-story-about-the-system-in-which-people-work-Will-these-formerly-unrevealed-public-records-change-the-account-of-what-occurred-on-June-30-2013?utm_campaign=9b46de97-1372-443e-a03a-5f66a0bb4de5&utm_source=so&utm_medium=mail&cid=9202d425-3bcd-4891-a3e7-9630ebc1828d
part one is done, sonny. I had to make sure the links worked- now let me see if I can get 2 thru 4 out tonight.
Back at it.
I am about twenty percent efficient for the next post, Sonny-
I am tired- I have a long Holiday full of event week so
Happy Holidays-
I will after this week keep cracking on post two.
Last time I waited for all five to be done and look where it got me so this time I am posting it one at a time but it does stink to rebuild what I spent too long building-
Good night
Cheerio
Good Posts by Joy on her Blog. They do reveal the shortcomings in the investigations, the outright deceptions, and the sickening failure of Donut to go under oath to expose the cover up. It shows the power structure in the system that mandates situations according to how they believe a situation should be publicly presented instead of exposition by the bare and true facts.
Much credit to WTKTT in these matters–his precise revelations have done much to reveal the truths along with the many well informed, all long experienced professionals such as RTS, Gary Olson, Powers, Woodsman, Honda, Dr. Ted Putnam, DND and many others reporting on Investigative Media. When added togethere, we are looking at hundreds of years of hands on experience in wild land fire fighting by these men–many whom have retired with excellent records in keeping their men safe and fighting wild fires. Our salute to all of them.
It is certain the system has failed in many instances with the Yarnell hill tragedy a prime example of bad wild land fire fighting and terrible investigative techniques. If you avoid the facts and take only those to prove your premise you have by half truths proven a lie. Joy’s presentation and years of hard work has exposed the lie–although not necessarily the motivations which need to be addressed as well. It will help to bring people to their senses and to telling the truth–those exposed should be reprimanded–not given accolades so they can carry on their pretenses. Lives are at stake and at Yarnell that was 19 young lives killed–easily explained by the errors made–yet covered up by all sorts of deceptive and authoritatively mandated practices. It shows utter disregard for the loved ones and future wild land fire fighter lives–and even the public who pays the taxes to employ the firefighter and the wild fires.
I would suggest that the men are indeed warriors but not in the sense that they have to kill themselves in order to save buildings. Utter disregard for the safety of your crew is a crime. Of course Marsh paid dearly with his own life as did Steed for giving in to his orders. And whoever encouraged Marsh must have some culpability as well–even the person responsible for putting him in charge of a crew as well. But there should be a strict lesson there to the fire fighting community so that when a man is seen to be unfit for a leadership job involving the safety and lives of young heroes, he is immediately removed from that position. It also goes to hiring practices and whether these men understand and respect safety procedures–Marsh obviously did not and Steed was too weak to resist orders that would have saved the crew.
I was saddened to see those young men again in Joy’s synopsis of events. It gives mixed emotions of sadness and anger knowing that it was all such a preventable tragedy.
Certainly it is a war, one against people and motives and inertia. But more revelations give us a bright side knowing that a few will not break their moral values to present a false face to the tragedy.c
To give you an idea of how little Trump cares for the environment or the common man, he owns sixteen golf courses around the world–even in Scotland, Ireland, Bosnia, and even Dubai. He put those in despite 19thousand signatures against and against the will of the local Scots who had opposed him for eight years. But Trump and his billions buys influence everywhere he goes so he gets it done.
Golf Courses are environmental nightmares–they use heavy water sources and those fertilizers, herbacides, and inseticides enter the water table and what does not also enters the ocean to add to the pollution. It is a fact that the golf courses around the world–only 72, ( maybe more since China is getting in on the act,) use water that would supply 80% of the world’s needs. But these fat billionaire Americans can go to other countries and spread our golf course sickness so some billioaire can chase that little ball around. This is the arrogance of our president and his lack of concern for scarce water supplies–the buck comes first and if you need a couple hundred grand to start a membership in on of his exclusive clubs then you can’t expect him to represent the real needs of the environment and future inheritors of the earth.
It is good to have clout since his golf club in New Jersey lives on the cheap for water. The common household there pays 16 times what he does for his golf course water. I think he will make America Great, at least for the hoity toits–millionaiers, billionairs and snoots–he surely will give us more golf courses–something America really needs-and look how he wrecked things in Scotland for the common folk.
But it is fun when you see some other Billionaire like Bloomberg working to replace him. And you think there is a real choice for the average person in America- my opinions only–I know a few are in love with Trump.
I have taken some photos–similar to the ones Joy has since to the South and West–also South and East I have been observing night time objects that should not be there, must be enormous in size and can hover for half an hour then suddenly disappear–There were four about a week ago and then only one to the SW four nights ago that sat there for at least a half hour before doing its disappearing act,. Where that one was located and the distance in the sky would put it into Old Mexico territory and unless the US has a treaty with Mexico to use craft in that area one has to wonder what these UFO’s are up to. One thing they have a nice light system–green, red, yellow, blue and even white lighting and the way they are arranged and distance they can not be small craft. Maybe my photos can be blown up off my phone–it is 12mp and might give someone an idea of what these might be.
I had at one time thought to share my experience with an encounter but one is always wary of being assigned to the insane class. Yet I know what happened similar to the Walton Case in that I wound up in another location after being chased by these small beings and a quiet intense light hovering over my head something like I thought maybe a hundred yards. All I know I wound up 20 miles away from home in a condition sort of like Donut-without a clue as to what had happened to me. My memory was blank from the time of the light until I found myself walking down the SP railroad track–I estimate a time of approximately 8 hours of blank memory and yet I remember distincly everything before that light hovered–and no I wasn’t smoking that whaky tabacky our using any other drug. Anyhow that ought to put me int he nut classifications since people do not believe such things can happen.
I think this came about because I had been reading THE DAY AFTER ROSWELL and had seen that virtually every astronaut had been tracked by UFO, numerous pilots, people with impeccable credentials such aa Colonel Corso who wrote the book and a host of pilots and reputable people such as police and military have reported these things. If you have not read Corso’s book, it is an eyeopener–but there is such denial and too many people want to call these the devil. But if you see the technology Corso was able to pass on to industry all the way from night vision equipment to computer chips and fiber optics–and fathom the advanced technology that suddenly appeared over the past 50 years you have to consider the possibility. And to think these men of such high standards and positions would risk putting out lies that would taint their reputations.
Col. Corso, along with Gen Trudeau believe these creatures are not friendly and may have scouting agenda’s. He states the laser was also developed from articles removed from the craft–to keep the story under wraps he was giving stuff out to the big corporations and allowing them to back engineer and patent as if they discovered the inventions themselves. The military had reason to keep their discovery hidden due to the cold war and his states it was well known at the time the CIA was infiltrated by KGB so this was even kept from CIA. One thing the way he presents it, it is hard to not believe–you just can’t make something up like that.
Well I do know the Government has holographic technology and somehow I once thought I was part of an experiment that way. And the laser cut cow I photographed down about 3 miles south of me is on my damaged phone–I went back to get another photo but rains kept me back since it is in the middle of a dry lake bed and now scattered. But I had the experience when I came home from Dolan Springs and I noticed that Leroy–my pit bull- had a perfect circle about the size of a half dollar cut on his neck exposing bare flesh below the cut. It always baffled me because whatever cut that section of hide out was like a perfect laser cut in a perfect circle showing his flesh. No flies were bothering and this was summer time so I never figured that one out.
There must happen some strange things in our lifetimes–that is if you can hang around long enough. Joy has some amazing photographs that would have you scratching your head–but these things are out there and I am not sure these have our interests at hand despite people that say they are friendly visitors. Look how the Spaniards slaughtered the Indians in Mexico and then made slaves out of them–and the Great American Settlers decimated whole tribes of people they called savages.
Well I can see the Government keeping wraps on Technology for National Security and likely they believe the masses would panic if they knew the whole story. But I just can not see all these dignitaries being a pack liars about these alien experiences.
The other thing about Leroy–that section removed had absolutely no blood on it and the perfect cut could not have been done with a knife–and Leroy was a bad dog–shit he killed my cow dog and another dog I had some time before this–not a dog you could mess with if you did know him. But that perfect circle and cut reminded me of the photos of mutilated cattle and even the one I photographed south of here.
Sometimes I think I am just trying it find first–how a fire could start from lightening on a clear day and second how so many men could be enticed into that death situation–I have nightmares on it since I can not for the life of me understand how Joy and I survived the tragedy –well we almost did not–but we need the answers and the truth–something Government and its minions have fine tuned to keep from you–unless by accident or determined effort the FOIA’s and a few men/women of good repute come forth.
I am almost through the book THE DAY AFTER ROSWELL as was written by retired by Lt Col Corso–looking at his 19 ribbons, his many contacts and even working as battalion commander and Intelligence officer I have to say this man must be telling the truth. His son has followed in supporting his Dad. But even more significant, Edgar Mitchell who actually walked on the moon states that the Roswell incident was an actual alien craft crash landed and alien bodies were recovered. Here again we are dealing with two people of impeccable reputations–you damn sure would not be able to represent the United States as an astronaut that walked on the moon without being a person of the highest moral integrity–so now do you laugh at Edgar Mitchell.
But it goes beyond Mitchell since virtually all the astronauts say they were dogged by alien craft and even talk of alien presence on the moon. Add to that the hundreds of pilots that “off the record” report these things and people of all walks of life that report everything from sightings to abductions and you have to start looking at the evidence–so much that in a court of law even less than this type circumstantial evidence would put a murder to the gas chamber.
I do believe Lt. Corso has uncovered a government cover up–and perhaps government had a plausible excuse in those days but these days? Researching this just reminded me so much of the Yarnell cover up–especially when Physicist Stanton Friedman held up government documents he had gotten by FOIA about UFO information–the documents were clearly blacked out and he stated something like 142 pages he received there were only a few words on each page that were readable.
I do believe the craft that crashed were expendable organisms designed to withstand forces, etc as Corso described and that our military through billions of tax dollars was able to back engineer and produce so much technology in so little time. Corso believed the saucer was actually a small craft off a mother craft and Joy does have photos of a mother craft with 5 craft around it (or was it 6). At any rate you could not see the small craft in the photo until she blew the photo up then there they were in that long distance photo.
Now whether the feds are in some sort of contract with the aliens to allow abductions and animal and people mutilations, I do not know or if what I think is that some of those high ranking feds–presidents, queens, etc are alien hybrids and lying shape shifters themselves sounds more reasonable. Well I doubt the actual trillionaire reptilians would hire anything but something really close to their agenda and blood lines to run a country. But you look at how easily these presidents sacrifice millions of lives and even their own young citizens with lies then you might understand the latitude of the situation.
So certainly those astronauts are heroes in every sense of the word and I do believe their word–what man would risk his life in a piece of shit you hope stays together ( it did not on that one that killed 7) and then come back to earth and make himself into a liar? But we have been so brainwashed by the system that we would doubt these men and hundreds of pilots–even people that saw the Phoenix Lights that crossed Arizona before disappearing were made fun of–thousands saw that.
I think we need to go beyond the earth controllers that want to deny these things and start using some good sense–common sense and good evidence goes a long ways.
Always when I read about cover ups and disinformation Yarnell and the 19GMHS investigative techniques come to mind. But the US is not the only place infested with the problem. The Brits have their problems as well. In Reading what a five star Admiral and former head of the British Ministry says about the Brentwaters Incident.
If you are not familiar with the incident, then it is well described by many Testimonials including Deputy Commander of the Base at the time and a lot of his soldiers all of high security standing since that base contains some highly secretive stuff including nuclear weapons. You see the methods of coercion and threats made to people despite their obvious integrity which most did not wish to compromise and some did not.
Interesting that because of the intense nature of what happened and perhaps for clandestine reasons the base has the highest number of suicides for a military installation.
But who is to say the reasons in each individual case and the plausible denials such as we saw in the Iran-Contra affair. And when a 19 year old with a high security clearance and a strict religious background witnesses three foot high beings step out of a triangular craft and is told to keep his mouth shut, he never saw anything but lighthouse lights then you can understand. Not only seeing something of that sort must distort your whole life view about religion but the fact that you would be cleared because of your honesty and now told to shut your fucking mouth cause you never saw what you saw–then you could at that age do what he did and perhaps some others–use his M-16 to blow the top of his head out. Military has no qualms to do what it wants to do and you damn sure best strictly follow orders–as I was told–equipment and orders are hard to come by but shit heads like you are easily replaceable.
Stuff like Dr. Greer has documented in Testamonies from highly respected individuals would easily send a man to his doom in a court of law if it were testimony against a criminal. You just can not make things up that people report in gross numbers and knowing these people know they risk ridicule from the general public. But some individuals are attuned to telling it like they saw it and not like they were told to see it-some have the fortitude to relate the truth despite peer disapproval or pressure to float along with the plan–don’t rock the boat with truth.
Likely you have read the book but if it is an interest that there might be something beyond us since there are hundreds of thousands of exoplanets out there and I don’t know which one Jesus is hanging around on–but life is abundant and some of those planets have a better computer. You can make that premise since the Universe is about 10 billion years older than earth so don’t be surprised if you find out someone had visited or is visiting the moon long before our relatively backward efforts have allowed us the opportunity. Maybe it is true that back engineering of some of the extraterrestrial visitors that ship wrecked at Roswell, et. al., gave us the wherewithal to preform the task.
And don’t commit suicide if Jesus happens to return in a space suit with a ray gun.
I forgot to mention the title of Dr. Greer’s book is UNACKNOWLEDGED– Dr. Greer is quite the fascinating individual but so are the many people that testify through out his book. Read the book in secrecy so you won’t be worried about ridicule.
Happy Trails after the Read.
It has been one of my deep interests to understand why the deaths of 19 of America’s Heros had such a quick and cursory investigation.
Over time I came to understand that foremost is to present these wild land fire incidents as accidental and incidental to being a fire fighter–the public will always assume the wild land fire fighter crews and bosses know their jobs and any death can only be incidental to the job, It is an easy premise to present to the public since their faith is in the management system and very few will challenge the information put out by the investigators and their management teams.
There of course is the solid thought that our wild land fire fighting managers are competent and in the main I think that is a fair statement. No one we hope intentionally goes out to kill his crew, and we would generally believe that crew bosses would avoid at all costs taking unnecessary action that would injure or kill their crews. We believe that along with this the investigators are people of integrity who would present a truthful investigation of deaths, even more careful and precise when looking into the deaths of 19 young souls.
So as I have watched this unfold over the past six years and realizing that those men went down into an absolute trap breaking every common sense rule to keep them alive and certainly for no good reason–(Pulaski’s and 5 gallon water containers can’t detain a megafire we were watching nor save houses against such inferno)–except they were in a mind set to strictly obey orders on a daily basis. Their minds were programmed to believe that the bosses demand instant and non questioned obedience and they trusted these leaders.
So the mystery was not so much a mystery there as it was to why the investigators would white wash the investigation by so many methods to come up with a report–no one erred, no reason to point out error or misdeed–there was none.
We know the benefits of skirting the truth for the State began with saving lots of money–no blame then no reason to pay large sums due to negligence of the State in their hiring and managing methods. Then for the managers of the Yarnell wild fire and others involved, there was a great face saving–no blame and no shame. Even for the investigators, it was much easier–no blame and no game–you can imagine if it had turned into a homicide (likely negligent but to be seen and understood) investigation as it should have been then there would have been properly spent much time and money doing that.
As Dr. Ted Putnam told me about the Storm King investigation that he headed involving the deaths of those 14 wild land fire fighters, there was pressure to get it done and over with without the proper allocation of resources and time needed to do the investigation properly. I think this was even more evident in the death of the 19GMHS crew. Dr. Putnam had risked his career by refusing to sign off until the investigation had been properly investigated–so true to form those above his station went ahead and presented it the way they wanted without his signature. He, of course, suffered much back lash over the years–yet his integrity in the final analysis stood firm–and example we did not see in the Yarnell incident with any of those investigators.
However, we were fortunate to see that the two federal investigators–to their credit did do as good a job as they could and with their limited experience concerning wild fires could easily see there was mismanagement and wrong doing to the point they placed a maximum fine against the State Forest Service for their careless actions. We were fortunate to hike with these men and you could see they were not attuned to that type investigation by their backgrounds but they were in every way fulfilling their work in a forward and honest way.
Sometimes I wondered why I look at the UFO thing and compare it to what I saw at Yarnell–the investigations into UFO situations carry the same psychological methods used throughout the federal system. Here is a MD Dr. Steven Greer backed by the testimonies of many highly respected people, backed by Apollo Astronaut Dr. Brian O’Leary, sanctioned by over 800 testimonies with more than 100 of those in his book stating that aliens craft have been recovered by our government, that even alien bodies have been taken, yet with all the credentials involved, including FOIA letters recovered by Herbert Hoover complaining that the Army has recovered flying saucers but won’t let him have hands on experience–then I begin to question how our government has set itself up to deceive the people so easily.
Of course in the case of other worldly entities totally able to enter our military zones and even completely shut down systems that would set off nuclear missles–you can perhaps understand how guarded people in charge might be. Perhaps the test that George Orwell did in presenting an alien invasion has our leaders in high military positions afraid to tell the public–but also that we have suddenly since 1947 and the Roswell crash been able to back engineer alien craft technology taking us almost from a barley past the horse and buggy stage to walking on the moon in just what–60 years?
The thing I notice is that these people that come forward on the UFO thing are men who no longer fear the government. They are also men and women of high integrity and will not compromise their moral standards and what they know and saw as truth.
Yet over time the debunkers, such as you see at Yarnell set up a quasi system to investigate incidents–and practically every incident that came forward as a sighting was attributed to mass hysteria, bog gas, or a kook. Look at even how thousands had seen the Phoenix lights–some so close that one commertial pilot said what he saw was about a mile wide and nothing on earth would equate to it. The governor at the time made a joke out of it and the Air Force said it was flares. That govenor later apologized and after he left office said it was real–he saw it himself.
Yet the method of authorities continually discounting these incidents as kooks incorporated put fear into people to report sightings or incidents involving aliens. In the military or as a commertial or air force pilot–you would risk being relieved of your license to fly or if a radar operator and witness you would be questioned why you wanted out of the service or possible relegated to the nut ward crowd if not dismissed or if you had saw too much and might talk –even disappear
The psychology is there and it is being used clandestinely and overtly but few recognize it, and even fewer if they do will dare challenge the authority figure. A lie told often enough –especially by authority figures and the more collusion the more it is believed publicly–becomes truth in the minds of the public.
Only a few will be able to stay the straight and narrow and forge ahead to get the facts as we see with the Yarnell tragedy. Sometimes it takes years before the FOIA information and people who retire or no longer fear the system come forward and stating the truth. Time is no respecter of persons and the closer we approach that threshold of physical death the more intolerable we become of lies–even our own.
The naive of the public–something I would know that our friend Gary Olson would have much to tell about—
One thing that array of shit on tracks out of Socorro–dishes headed at the sky by the dozen supposedly to catch and alien signal. Radio, microwave, light and the like all travel at 186,000 mps–now that is fast earth and even moon time since it would take less than two seconds for light or radio to reach the moon. What was the delay Nasa was using–was it 4 minutes–they needed time to clip anything that they did not want public to see or hear. Be that as it is, the nearest star situation is about 1000 light years away. And galaxies are hundreds of thousands of light years away.
So what makes these brilliant scientists think that aliens would be using radio waves to transmit or listen to messages if they are flying around the universe? The problem is that you can forget any conventional flight, even at the speed of light to get you anywhere outside a few uninhabitable or very hard to inhabit planets with our delicate biological systems. But it must be fun spending federal funds on bogus projects and as one Forest Boss that quit the forest service–those retardant dumps sure impress the public but do damn little good in effectively fighting forest fires–and likewise all those dish things moving around on tracks make a fine sight to public eyes. Give em a little bang for the dollar.
Scientists are not stupid–they know this and quantum physicists point out technologies that any entity wanting to transverse the universe would have to have knowledge of and abilities to use–these technologies are way beyond the speed of light. I think Dr. Putnam himself uses some–and we are wired for them yet most unable to access them.
The trick is to use quantum methods to make these travels and not with outdated carbon fuels and even at the speeds of light.
I know when Rumsfeld said some time ago that 2.3 trillion dollars can not be accounted for and the Iraq war cost about a trillion–then I wondered how so? Gary Olson ought to have an idea on that more that I would–but I wondered what amazing technology that 2.3 trillion has uncovered beside buying a few cronies some nice homes and Mercedes to look good in front.
I know I have 20 solar panels capable of producing power more than I really need and those panels will last beyond 20 years–meaning they will still work fine in 20 years at 80%capacity so I might have to add a couple if I need to maintain the same level of power–yet of course it would be another Lazarus thing if I even live another 10 past the 76 I am about to become in a few days.
But to the point–your lovely President and his minions and his board of Directors and Overseers will not allow what they have–and that is much better technology than my simple and relatively cheap solar system–they have a zero point technology that would give the world virtually free energy–that makes them a pack of thieves to humanity and they know it, therefore this technology will be hidden from public view at all costs. They will instead maintain the oil and polluting thing and the war profit thing (trillion dollar for Iraq war, etc.). If these world prostitutes were exposed they would face some heavy duty humanity crimes.
But this has been going on for so long–Korea was a start and Viet Nam and either war what can you really say was the reason we were there. Korea was we did not want to have the commies spreading their brand of bullshit. Vietnam again yet there we had to have the Gulf of Tonkin lie backed by Kennedy’s successor Johnson, and of course Iraq and taking down of the Twin Towers got the public all fussed up over Iraq and Terrorists–and most of us feed into a line of shit., I mean how could a lovely guy like Bush or Johnson lie to us? Dick Nixon got caught in his lies but that was cause someone he had to have pissed off that got him where he was. You don’t bite the hand that feeds you–and these Billionaires and Trillionaires that buy these babies into office are known to get furious when their puppets don’t pay attention. Give me some more golf courses–we are world travelers–how about Argentina Trump or an underground one in the Arctic? Likely already there.
Well imagine if the world were honest–I as a kid thought these world leaders were people of highest honor and in many instances they are. Yet the traps some of them have allowed themselves into have caused them to mislead for agenda’s they personally often do not have yet must espouse. I think your forest service and wild land fire fighters can attest to a number of these instances they have seen play out.
It is sometimes sad getting at the truth–sometimes fun- can even in many instances be draining and even dangerous–yet somewhere in the depths of our conscious the need to get at it and share it with our friends and fellow earth traveler pushes us to do that. Why do you think so many on their death beds tell what they always needed to tell. Fortunately some do not wait until their death beds to reveal wrong doing that would be good for the whole despite threats.
There will be more pain in withholding than the truth. If you are ordered to stay mum when an illegal act is committed then you can not by law be legally bound and prosecuted. If anyone knows what physical and mental pain are, I certainly do. There is nothing that will torture your psyche than the loss of a beloved son–and physically sciatic pain from a crushed vertebrae in a mine accident, heart attacks that you prefer jumping out of a copter several thousand feet in the air over the pain, or a direct shotgun blast that shatters a clavicle into a hundred bone fragments, pierces your lung and cracks three ribs will put you in the realm of knowing physical pain. But in all I have to believe that carrying a lie such as many do in government, in the Yarnell incident involving 19 young lives, in the aftermath of elderly sickness and death from retardant dispersion–then you would do well to unload before you meet the next dimension.
In reading the book Unacknowledged you see that some testified anonymously. Government in certain departments can be dangerous if exposed. So it is reasonable and understandable to do it that way–and for me if I had fear and some knowledge that should be known to help get the truth of Yarnell out–that might be my way. Of course I am not tied to any agency but would not fear expressing what I know in this polite American Society. I however do not expect to be invited as a guest at the Trump Tower–and if I was would politely decline.
If you have something good for truth and to help your fellows please reveal–don’t patent but be a hero and give of your free energies.
Happy Trails.
Some simple facts–since 1950 to now the CO2 levels in the air have risen from 200ppm to 400ppm and expect to go to 1500ppm within ten years with population and increased use of fossil fuel. From 1950 back 800,000 years the carbon dioxide (CO2) levels have never been above 180ppm. So we passed the 800,000 year concentration threshold in 1950 and doubled it since then.
That was something easily determined since the arctic studies where ice was drilled to a depth equal to the deposition time for 800 thousand years. CO2 is trapped in the ice right on up to our modern date and can be compared throughout the ages. The problem with CO2 is that not only are the industrial and transportation additions to the air in excess but also since forests and vegetation convert CO2 into breathable oxygen, we have cut the forests down–particularly the Amazon to 6% from 14% in these years. There are of course other green house gases such as methane which add to the formula.
In some cities the oxygen level is down to 17-19%. Past ages earth’s levels have been as high as 35%. It is known that we experience reduced brain function at levels below 19.5% and optimal levels should be at 21.5% to 22.5+%. Now most scientists working in the atmospheric studies conclude that we are soon to reach a maximum and threshold level where there will be no reverting back to normal and healthful CO2 and Oxygen levels on earth. Of course we are an ingenious bunch and instead of worrying about fucking up the environment, air, water, etc–we can build more golf courses, spread more fertilizer, insecticides, and fire up the coal and oil and gas burners and fit ourselves with gas masks and perhaps like Zack Ashoor was doing find a way to wear a smaller oxygen device to keep ourselves healthy.
I can tell you oxygen depletion is not a good thing for health–similar to our polluting the rivers, lakes, oceans and lands. Our cancer rates, despite the billions and golf comedian now passed –Bob Hope who raised millions–cancer is still unsolved and on the upswing even in kids you see so much of on TV. Something like 80% up since the 1900’s and add to that Heart Disease–both connected to pollutants mixed with low oxygen, COPD and the like. So global warming or not, you want your air to be clean, fresh and without too much methane and benzene–both cancer factors. And God forbid some asshole decides to inundate your town with tons of retardant with unknown chemicals since the ammonium and phosphates are deadly engough–especially when applied to hot fires.
And I do believe too much carbon in the air and other pollutants are reflecting heat back enough to make changes—not to mention the constant chem trails–something few people beyond outdoor types pay attention too. And we do know these are barium and aluminum particles–used in technology someway but also pollutants you do not need to be breathing into your lungs. Well known that Alzheimers and other diseases have brain concentrations of Aluminum and add to that Aluminum that was (is?) being used in vaccines is a certain health ruination. But do not take my word for it–research it for yourself and you just might be amazed what Monsanto and big Pharma have gotten away with–yet certain there are medicines despite the many side effects that might do well. When I complained my Doctor explained–you must suffer to get the benefits in any medicine. Well my breath is bad when I take garlic–but the salesman is the one that suffers–or maybe my dog who does like bad smells anyway.
So I am just saying, I did not take 9 years of medical school, know little about medicines and actually use few–baking soda stops my gut acid fast– read the side effects as the Pharma tells you so they don’t get sued and if you feel sick there is always a medicine to stop that and so on in the progression. I may die young in self medicating but in my own case since I have been dead already twice then I should not concern too much about medication unless it does have bad effects–in other words in your retired years you should not have to live with too many side effects after 75 years on the planet, so hopefully we have a good doctor and not a quack.
Here is the sad state of things and likely the source of Trump’s tirade against the press other than his tirades against anyone that challenges his ego–NY times Former Managing Editor and New York Sun Managing Editor John Swinton states:
“The business of the jornalist is to destroy the truth: to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press? We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping Jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes.”
How well described are the main stream media puppets for the powers that be and who can deny a man who had served the master puppeteers for so long? I detect a bit of lament but a fact well known and when I see Bloomberg telling the people through the mainstream media what he will do for them I can only say to myself now that is mass hysteria to believe his bunk or the bunk of Trump should they oppose each other–for their position is no different than that editor is.
Former CIA diretor William Colby said “The CIA owns everyone of any significance in the major media And who owns the CIA?–Colby was found floating in the water after 56 Congressional Hearings.
Power mongering is a strong situation–once people attain it they are certain to do all things to maintain it. The last thing they would want is someone exposing them or disparaging their name or operations. These days government is so compartmentalized and even down to the last fellow.
The poor youngster working line at the wild fire has no need to know much beyond how to drag brush or swing the Pulaski–to even advance to stringing out fire is only allowed in due course of his work as determined by a superior. Donut tells of his excitement to be able to do so. Yet that fellow is also like the Editor –under the thumb of a superior–his words and opinions and witness only allowed after it is first heard by those above him to see if it is allowed. Even the foreman of Blue Ridge had mum orders and could speak only if allowed and of course that whole crew included were ordered mum. And this militaristic method of mind and physical control of the 19 GMHS crew had much to do with their deaths and most certainly to do with how their deaths were presented so no reputations and no challenges of the methods could be made.
The quotes came from a book by Stephen Greer MD pages 100-101. Quite enlightening and amazing are the writings of Dr. Greer in his book UNACKNOWLEDGED and so many parallels to the Yarnell incident and to government in gerneral.
He points out that indeed the government is now everywhere, in our minds in control issues, in our pocket books and becoming the omniscient physical entities and as far as I can see at the higher levels aligned with religious entities in the control and deceptions to the masses. A reading of his work and the many testimonies in the book . with his credentials and the obvious credentials of people that have testified are informative of how business is done in the federal sector. And few even are cognizant of their involvement.
Happy trails–and may that Pulaski ring true.
Yea, a long exposition and necessary to understand the truth–as much as can be revealed these days.
People who do not believe such shenanigans happen should refer to a documentary JKK The Smoking Gun, something I came across on TUBI. It has taken more than fifty years and expert witnesses to come out with a conclusion–Lee Harvey Oswald did not kill the President, although he did maim and get off two shots. Colin McLaren, an Australian of fame for solving crimes for 18 years in Australia and putting away 11 Mafia Crime bosses tackled the investigation along with an American expert at ballistics, Howard Donahue. Donahue along with 11 marksmen attempted for CBS to replicate getting off 3 shots in 5.6 seconds as Oswald would have had to have done during the Kennedy assassination CBS had rigged a set up with a tower six stories high and a moving FBI man sized target moving on tracks at 11 mph–oddly the same claimed movement velocity of the Yarnell fire that overtook the GMHS crew.
As it turns out Donahue was the only one to equal the feat but it took him three trys to do it. I did actually own one of those Caricano Rifles back in my earlier days when I had a FFL and was coyote trapping and bluing rifles as a side occupation. You could get one off Shotgun News for something like $50 and at that time I had an interest in collecting various military fire arms. As the documentary states that rifle was a piece of junk. About the only ammo that would function half way decent through it was that hard nosed military ammo. If you shot reloads of soft nosed or hollow point design you were sure to get jams, especially if you operated the bolt quickly as Oswald would have had to do. The bold fit was loose and it was inherently a poor weapon to use–even the head space was suspect making it some dangerous to use. Not even close to a well made early German Mauser. In my tests I found the thing to shoot poorly enough you could miss the end of a wash tub at 50 yards–not even a good deer rifle, nor hope to make it one. However Oswald did manage to hit Conolley sitting two people over from President Kennedy with his wife between and he also managed to hit the pavement outside the vehicle–but the third shot was the mystery of how Kennedy’s head was blown apart.
In the documentary you will see how things are covered up and after seeing how this professional investigator and ballistics expert investigated the tragedy, if you believe Kennedy was killed by Oswald, then I would suggest you will continue to believe Marsh did the right thing by aiming to protect structures with his troops of Pulaski bearers. But watch the documentary carefully and especially note that the entry wound was measured at 6mm, not 6.5 mm and Kennedy’s wound came from a frangible bullet known by the many small lead fragments about his brain–something a military bullet does not do–explode into tiny fragments. So watch the documentary before making any decisions–it does solve many questions for my mind since I can remember exactly where I was on the Brock Ranch out of Lordsburg, NM when I was told by Charlie Ray–Kennedy has been shot and invited inside to watch the news on his black and white TV set. Although I am prone to think it was not an accident due to CIA agent Hinkley’s careless handling of a weapon no more than it was an accident that the 19 GMHS are dead and clueless Donut was placed in a deadly situation that only the fortunate circumstance of the Blue Ridge Foreman being in the area saved his ass. Did the Blue Ridge Foreman get a public award for that? But view the documentary before you decide–yet in my estimation it makes me think that a goodly number of these state and national investigations are based on how the outcome is best presented to the public–not how the facts prove reality.
The ongoing revelations of Joy Collura, et. al., are well worth the careful study. She and others involved have spent years piecing this information together. It is true there are people that could put a firm stamp on things, yet at this point have neglected to come forward. Let us hope that people deserving the information do not have to wait more than 50 years such as the Kennedy investigators have to reveal the truth. It is a heavy burden to carry and a psychological illness to hold on to information that would give closure to loved ones and reveal the truth that bears upon wild land fire fighter safety as well as public understanding. Hiding truth by avoiding it is indeed an illness that can manifest itself in physical ways as well.
One thing of interest you should note was that all the witnesses, even CIA testified that what they heard sounded like firecrackers or pop pop stuff. If you have ever been around rifle gun fire you damn well know that you can easily distinguish rifle fire from firecracker type sounds. Rifle fire at that close range carries a significant difference–both the explosion of the rifle and the crack of the rifle bullet breaking the sound wave. What they were hearing were suppressed rounds or rounds reloaded to less than the sound barrier used by undercover agents in covert operations.
The AR-15 is a truly versatile rifle. With minimal practice you can switch barrels to a larger caliber in a matter of seconds so you can carry one designed to operate with a larger caliber and revert it back to the 223 usual military issue caliber. There are only two pins easily pushed out with a pen or a sharp bullet point that hang loose while you slide in the different upper. But people in the crowds do not know simple facts like these and want to believe that the officials working off public tax money will always tell the truth in public matters.
Well you would want to believe that after 50 years and all the rascally doings of CIA, and other government officials, things would have gotten better. The fact is after looking at Yarnell and not only including the deaths of the 19 GMHS crew, but the deaths of 200 dead Yarnellites and the sickened people among the 445 survivors, some on their death beds this very day, I would conclude that no–instead coverup methods have worsened by fine tuning the methods. Fortunately there are a few websites and Internet and a few people challenging the falsifications and false fronts and as Trump would say “fake news” presented to the public.
I have contributed little to the investigation at Yarnell, but as a concerned citizen and eye witness to events there, I am grateful that such sites as Investigative Media and the professionals that contribute here are challenging the poor investigative techniques that presented the Yarnell Hill Tragedy and the Yarnell Deaths in a down played manner and as accidents of nature. Nothing could be farther from the truth but it takes the professionals who have been at this wild land fire fighting business for decades along with even professional wild land fire death investigators to prove that the Yarnell fire fighting incident was instead a boondoggle of the needless and careless killing of 19 of the Nations finest and a slaughter of townsfolk by the massive retardant dumps surrounding the small village. Of course the last statement is my own and not necessarily the belief of others–so look at the facts and make your own decisions.
And something I should add–Joy I know has had much resistance in her incessant pursuit of the truth. Some say why don’t you just drop it–can’t you just forget it and let go? Some are angry and say why are we bothered–our trusted public servants would not lie to us–and even if they have why bother. Well, I can say how erroneous these attitudes since the safety of our young heroes doing this dangerous wild land fire fighting depends upon truth and exposure of fire fighting practices and attitudes that need to be changed if such tragedy is to be avoided. It is callous of conscience to hinder people working to prevent such tragedy by revealing the truth. Reputations and structures are not that important when compared to the safety of these young heroes.
Take your time on the posts-there is plenty left to do and more to be said. Meantime do you see that Bloomberg has dropped 30 Million dollars just on one week’s campaign funds for advertising. It takes money to buy voters these days and the banks, corporations and big oil are keeping America entertained. With that kind of money it looks like the corporations have one of their candidates laid out and I wonder who will be their alternative–Trump? Are they tiring of meeting in the Trump tower by now?
Anyway, the charade is on and if you watch the Voice or Spin the Wheel for Dollars, you will get intermittent interruptions to have a look at the smiling Bank investor Bloomberg telling you how much he is going to do for America–and on Tweeter you will get more social gibberish. I have never listened to a Trump Tweet–are they sweet? Not a Trump or Tweet visitor though that seems to be a cheap way to reach America.
I do wonder what it has to do with firefighting–but it does since I am certain the retardant corporations will have a favorite candidate and will want to know which side to put the most money on. I think the millions they lay out for candidates is kept fairly confidential–and either way they will certainly want to keep up their big contracts and increase them for future wild fires. They must have high hopes for plenty wild fires–or I should say plenty of retardant dumps. Who with their mind set should worry about polluting the environment and what presidential candidate is going to refuse the millions these corporations grease their political machines with. And wow–30 million for one week worth of grease?
It is obvious that you can buy a lot of influence with a few million and we know the top players are the banks, oil companies, and corporations–and the money flow and lobbying does not stop at the election polls with two sacked and purchased candidates. There is plenty more to keep up the big business of presenting the good effects of retardant, oil, plastics, pharmasuiticals, chemicals, and polluting vehicles, war machines that keep up the economy, and so forth. When does the insanity end and people begin to realize that corporations care less about efficiency, cleaning up the environment, issues about the chemicals and plastics killing the oceans, and pharmaceutical companies often selling junk medicine more deadly than helpful. Don’t expect a bought and sacked presidential candidate to make a difference and these days there is virtually no possible way for an honest candidate to get to the top. The system has itself in a trap just as you see in the wild fire situation. Money and power set the outcomes of elections and corporations reap the profits and a few top dogs smile all the way to the bank–well they even own the banks in many instances.
Yet I do believe there is lots of power out there to change things for the better. Most of it is in the people only though–not the candidates they believe represent them. It gets scary for those on top when the masses start becoming more educated–they would prefer more doping of the masses–and more laws to incarcerate the masses–
An education in prison life really makes a slave out of an individual–Look at Donut and how he had to go to Willis and others to make vital decisions–fear from his prison programming had him so he could not even tell the truth. These of course are my opinions and you have plenty of right to say oh he was hurt by the death of his fellows (some likely true there) and that is what kept his mouth shut- (very unlikely true).
But the point is, this Twitter and internet is likely the last hope for the masses to start getting at the reality of the world and what is really taking place. The retardant and chemical business is world wide now with wildfire business a huge market for mining companies–especially those in the phosphate business. They are churning out billions–and very little is put back into cleaning up the mess they are making in killing our oceans, destroying the environment and sickening the people that work in those industries and the people and environment that gets splattered with their toxins.
In fact, their retardants do little good and much harm if you look at Yarnell for an example. The retardants actually did nothing to save Yarnell yet the millions spent dumping them did sicken the town and kill of about a third of the town. The rains soak phosphates and other poisons into the waters as well as join the rivers to kill more fish and other aquatic life and eventually end up feeding the red algae that is a toxin and a newly created dead zone killing off every form of ocean life even to the coral and vital elements below the algae so nothing can live in the dead zones.
If Yarnell is any example, you are much better off letting nature take care of itself without the retardants–those water bags and defensible zones are deterrents and would have done much better at Yarnell and would have left health and environment intact to recover as it does. However, you would eat into the profits and industries involved in polluting the environment–they would have to look at other ways to pollute.
yeah
came here to say Happy Thanksgiving Sonny-
I plan to spend it at neighbor Dan’s and see some up the hill in the snow-
Trying to figure how to get the last blog post link “live” again
????
Head there now-
Because I understand the significance of the idea of a God or Gods in people’s visions of how things ought to be–for instance as mandated by that particular god or set of gods, I seldom discuss religion. So much has been interpreted and reinterpreted over the ages concerning writings and so much hidden–there are books in the Vatican that are restricted to only a few select –unavailable to the common scholar who might want to investigate them. Others are considered apostate works and forbidden. But as Constatine 300 years after Christ was killed had seen a cross in the sky–he gave new impetus to Christianity and melded it with paganism–for instance the worship of the tree and cutting of it from the forest and decorating it was an old custom mentioned in the old testament and part of the pagan religions of the ancients. They too had a son who was killed and reborn–and the tree was an incarnation of one of them. But attaching Christ to what had been happening and the same way more or less of dying on the cross and resurrection as the saviour of mankind has been going on for some time. This is not conjecture–read your old testament if you are inclined to be religious and while you are at it look at some old Indian art work and even paintings during the middle ages–I believe even the Lord’s supper painting has a UFO painted into it as does Indian Rock Art including aliens standing next to their saucers.
God did not say make man in our Image–he said make them in our Image–them could mean monkeys or primitive man and this happened some time ago. The angels or those aliens that mated with man caused a hoard of Giants and as well the pure gods or aliens did get pissed and the flood on mankind and hybrids was a result of the anger. This flood is written about in clay tablets thousands of years before the Bible came about–namely in Sumerian Tables for one–and from that area, now in Iraq sprang immediately civilizations with laws, sciences and mathematics and agricultural knowledge.
In charge of all this were the blood line Kings and Queens–hybrid alien types and those blood lines have been jealously guarded down through the ages–although some depleted from earlier times when more of them were giants and perhaps more intelligent than the modern day Queen and King lines that so many people worship along with their particular religion and some pontiff or preacher that people so want to adore.
And do not think these gods did not have their flying machines–mention of them in the old testament and even of people being taken up into those things–for instance Enoch–so yes these higher shape shifting intelligences do exist and in other dimensions that can appear or disappear at will. The Mexican Air Force with American technology could not see some visually but on the infared cameras they were quite apparent and being tracked on radar as well, yet they could also take themselves off radar. Why they often harass planes–perhaps even hijack the whole thing I don’t know but it is known by Jet Fighters that you can not catch up to them nor can you bring them down–their technology is likely thousands of years ahead of ours. So yes there is life on other planets–and I have to think they have done a good job of using mankind and keeping us under control–religion being one method but there are others–politicians, royalty, and an elite group of watchers or angels that are top notch manipulators. Angel is another word for Shining One–and that requires some research but you might imagine it relates to those other worldly intelligences. So choose your God and make up your vision of he or she and add your ideas to the mostly inherited ones you already have been induced into your mind. And maybe Buddha or Confucius would tell you to meditate on it–I think Allah would want you to bump your head toward Mecca.
So, truly there is a universal intelligence–hopefully it is much more kind and loving than the Old Testament Father God or for my part some more sane than causing people to roll on the floor or play with rattle snakes until they get a nasty bite or even take poisons to escape the government fellows that want to take away their hypnotic controls over people–for example Jim Jones and 900 dead of his poison kool aid.
The world is in trouble–if you see how that even fire deaths are treated to benefit reputations and depriving dues to loved ones while the chemicals used to fight these fires are part of the great chemical toxins destroying oceans, making people sick and tearing up natural environments all to make some fat cat even fatter–while half the world is living on less than $2 a day we see a sickness that the watchers do not seem to give a damn about.
About 6 billion tons of waste are dumped on the earth every year these days–toxins, chemicals, plastics and so forth that seeps into our water, our oceans, and lands and what we can of it goes to the poor countries because we do not want our wastes in our back yard. Approximately half the food in the US is thrown out–and meantime people starve to death at the rate of about a million a year in poor countries. Scientists tell us that species of plants and animals are disappearing at the rate of about 30,00 per year–due to the toxins spread world wide in the lands, oceans, rivers, air and so forth. Rainforests in the 1800’s were 14% of the earth and now down to 6%–Coral reefs are being killed off by the pollutants so fast that scientists say the Great Coral Reefs of Australia will be extinct by 2050 if the rate of depletion continues.
Over population is the main problem–and although fracking has given us new sources of oil–that should be gone by the world demand in only 10 years. We do have a rich country but by 2050 you should expect a 44% increase in population–and the world is booming.
Greater Tokyo has 35million people–more that the whole country of Canada. The planet is at 7.5 billion and places like the United Kingdom with 70 million can not sustain that population with its fields and resources without imports. England had to ration food for ten years after the Germans worked them over in WW2.
So if you have a favorite religion–ask that fellow in charge of you if you should be quitting plastic and using your own bag to pick up groceries. See if he knows anything about the effects of retardant and ask him if he still thinks that God put Trump in charge with his Trump Tower the holy site of worship.
Happy trails–smile it gets worse before it gets better–remember the Brits turned rabbits loose in Austrailia and since there were no predators the damn things ate up the crops so bad they were causing economic disaster and famine. But their intelligent scientists came up with a rabbit disease and that killed them off–we as humans are multiplying so fast that we are over polutting the earth, wiping out its resources, and creating the extinctions of an alarming rate of 30,000 per year. Is one of the elite blood lines of shape shifters or else the coming supe inlelligent computers going to do the rabbit thing with us?
This is a horror story but likely many years beyond my limited allotment of time. It is hard for most humans to thing beyond 150 names, much less a world situation. But it is moving fast upon us and people who are in the problem are hard put to solve the problem–for example look at how the fire gods handled the Yarnell thing.
OK, I did skim your additions Joy–The revelations you are airing hopefully will get out to main media as well–Six years and someone in that department should be able to handle the truth by now. Early on it would have been a no-no to reveal the facts on main media since they would have had the State and Fed FS breathing down their necks in a harsh way. They were treated badly from the start but those reporters who do want to get out the truth are under the scrutiny of their owners and of course the major media outlets are owned and controlled by big money–they must stay within safe parameters.
Right now, you can go to Robinhood–free way to buy stocks–and purchase shares in CBS, Fox, NBC or any of the big media networks. Their goal is to keep their stockholders happy–that is stay in the profit area. Who do you think owns the overwhelming portion of these companies shares and interests? It ain’t you the little fellow–it is the Rockefellers, and Bankers, Oil Magnates, McDonalds, and Chemical Corporate Giants, Mining Companies and so forth. These media people stay in line and your local Sheriff’s and Fema are going to make sure they do. None of this getting the real news out–and it is all cleaned up so that no one’s toes are stepped on–especially those big interests that hold huge shares and control the way things are done. Don’t think that reporters that insist on telling it as it is without censorship will last long in the big media operations. Have you heard anything about the culprits and their corrupt and polluting Peruvian mining program in main news? That man that is running that situation is a rip off artist–exposed here on Investigative media. He gives a shit less about the environment–his greed has him by the balls but you would not hear about this on standard media–that Canadian outfit is tied in with the big boys that make the politico dance to their tune with big payouts of American greenbacks–well purple now.
I question everything these days–common sense goes a long ways–and I believe people informed will make the difference. I can understand that with the slave and bee hive mentality–people having to tie down two or more jobs to live the cookie cutter American dream world have little time to do much beyond a Monday night football viewing and a few beers to relax from their hum drum existence. But they do watch the news–and sometimes when small media gets the truth out the main players have to tell a more truthful version of such things as the wild fire deaths at Yarnell or the Gulf of Tonkin situation, or why Pearl Harbor was allowed, or the Lusitania ship not protected in WW1 or the CIA Contra affair, or the Cuban idea to sink an American Ship and blame it on Cuba so we could invade–something Kennedy might have gotten himself shot for since he turned the idea down from his General, CIA operatives and others that thought it was a good idea. And if you think the two Kennedy assassinations were a coincidence, there were a lot of coincidences with CIA working in Latin America–Leaders down there that disagreed with CIA ideas of how the country ought to be run were knocked off right and left.
And if you think we ought not question the way things are done then you better know that you ought to do a bit of research–perhaps Joy’s postings of FOIA information will take the blinders off some eyes. FOIA allowances exposed the CIA dope dealings and other criminal actions during the Iran-Contra affair. George Bush was CIA director and ordered files destroyed despite three Congressional Warnings not to–hey when you got such a charismatic President as Reagan as Commander in Chief and part of the game–you can destroy the Twin Towers and still get a get out of jail pass. But somehow files of about 20,000 pages had been misfiled and were not destroyed but discovered by a whistle blower–I know it is said he would wind up killing himself in despair since his career had been ruined.
The question is–Have things gotten better or is the system working with fine tuning. Billions have been spent on how to convince people of Bullshit. Why the polluting and plastic world killing the oceans and ruining our water sources and destroying world environments
Do you think it is going to change? I have a bathide in Psychology–turned into graduate work named Counseling and Educational Psychology–I took within two hours of a Masters degree there but wound up in another Religious School to finish out in Religion. It was at that time in the 80’s after a mine cave in that I could have opted to take a degree that involved Commercial Psychology–you go to work big bucks for corporations to use your skills and learning to promote their products. CIA has used plenty of Psychology majors and Psychiatrists as well to also work on mind control studies–and plausible explanations I might say–yet some of these studies have been done –LSD for example fostered upon unknowing subjects by the thousands to observe effects–all in the name of keeping Americans safe. Trump would say Great!
So a study that Joy has been laying out will be called by some another whistle blower move–and if you want to disparage people call them conspiratorial thinkers. Yet the conspiracies are abundant and it is after all an American Citizen’s duty to question government–it is supposed to be a government of and by the people not a people of and by the government–yet over the past 300 years or so this has changed. It is truly at the threshold of the Orwellian nightmare.
The Canadians had a four day conference–it was made up of many scientists and dignitaries unhappy about the twin tower investigation (sound familiar Yarnellites?)
The Canadians give us a bit of fresh air and they are trying to keep their air fresh. You see they lost 24 people in the twin tower ordeal and six times that amount in the following Afghan and Iraqi wars based on the false flag Twin Tower ordeal. We of course lost thousands of young soldiers and now are dealing with Gulf war syndrome and other problems. Well we came out killing millions of the Arabian brand of people–something that makes America Great screwing up other countries?
The concensus was that since we are in a New World Order thing that there should be a world court hearing with a high possibility of prosecuting certain individuals for crimes against humanity–nothing was mentioned about crimes toward environment. It is a documentary called The Great Deception and after viewing the testimonies you think the government had not fine tuned deceptive practices then I would suggest you go back to watching volley ball.
If one thing Yarnell had done for me it was to see that a few really care about the truth–but they are going to be flogged for their efforts to share it..
Well if you are religious the Irish Gods are a good start. Maybe the Guru’s are not bad either–they might have you in an orange jump suit –our government does that too. Certain people need to stand out like a throbbing thumb that has been hit with a hammer–I don’t think I want the orange jump suit no matter who dishes it out. I prefer the camo brands–but hard to do these days since you can already get a chip in your dog and even yourself if you are a soldier or a volunteer for the New World Society. Of course with CIA antics of undercover set ups such as the past shit they have pulled (doping of public, etc without their knowledge) we all might already have a chip to make sure the powers that be know where they can find us in case we are needed–in the salt mines? that would be me since I am a miner by trade.
But in a way they don’t yet really need the chip implants–it is just that they would be a quicker more efficient way to round you up. Of course this well informed society will want the chip without any arguement–only a fool like Tex Gilligan would reject it, yet when ten black suited jack asses with AR-15 pointed at your face you will have no alternative. Its the law you know–what the fuck is wrong with you they will say.
Well Orwell scared hell out of people with the alien story, but he was telling more truth by fiction than you might imagine. And of course once we are a One World Society managed by a few Watchers and Shape Shifters such as the Bush Clan, all responsible for a few million deaths, then you can bet us common folk will be expected to walk the line according to the one they draw. It might just be the orange jump suit or the pink one that that Phoenix Sheriff used to degrade his prisoners with.
But then Bush gave us more safety with the Patriot Laws–meaning tighter clamps on freedom–and you have to boil a frog in steps or he will jump out of the skillet. It has taken centuries to perfect the One World Order thing and George Orwell had it pegged to be in effect by 1985–so he might be right since we have been brain washed enough that we do not even realize the mind control methods in effect this very day.
There is more universal control than you can imagine. We are programmed to be a consumer waste society buying plastic replaceable garbage that winds up where it belongs so we buy more and continue the cycles of pollution. This is called keeping the economy working. Our lives are pretty much laid out for us from the day we are born to be a part of the bee hive at the mercy of the decisions of the queen and king bees–those elite you seldom even get to see and certainly can not approach unless you are a “Sir” and something over the masses. You will go to war for these entities whether you like it or not and you will do their bidding–even if it means dropping a bomb or even an A-Bomb on a city of folks not even involved in the war. It is because the queen bees and kings need the slave mentalities to keep producing for their needs–the need is gross–greed and control over the masses. Don’t think that old President wants his adoration to go away no more than the glittery Pope does or some Guru driving Rolls Royce’s around while he has his crowd all dressed in orange. Shit the world is almost laughable at the fools they are giving their power away to these shit heads that are no more than a murderous bunch of shit heads screwing over humanity and the environment to fill their coffers and need for control and adoration.
But they are smart–call it the Patriot Act and not what it is–or destroy the twin towers and kill a few thousand Americans so you can make America mad and go to war and cause the deaths of thousands of young heroes and millions of people where we do not even belong–because the fat cats want the oil and control over those resources. They have no more respect for the young lives they kill of our own than they do the people they kill. And would it not be lovely if you saw the Bush’s and Trumps on the front lines leading the troops. Politicians are as easy to replace as tin foil. But those young lives they kill are irreplaceable. Where have they managed to screw over the minds of people with their actions?
And if you have not given it any thought to how easy it is to replace the monkeys in charge just know that there are five more already in line anxious to be in that adorable spot starting from the Vice President on down–look how fast Johnson was sworn in after the Kennedy Assination–he couldn’t even wait till he got off the plane. You have a hoard of these shape shifters standing in line.
Ok –I did not spell assassination correctly–apologies and good humors. I have a plausible cause–I had been watching copious amounts of chem trails (if that is all they are?). They are mostly being dropped over the Juarez, Mexico area so those migrants are being well dusted. Well fortunately on this side the troops (I took my basic at Ft. Bliss, El Paso TX next to Juarez) are required immunization for flue and whatever else might be in that soup dropped out of the air. Also veterans and citizens in El Paso and Las Cruces are being pushed to take the free flue shots offered at many places like Wal Grens and Wal Mart–It might be advisable to listen to the TV propaganda–I mean ads to do that. I did not, there fore having to use my home based formula of crushed garlic swallowed with a swig of water to burn off bacteria internally. I am some better today after about four doses–and still able to cut wood and fire the tin heater. Trump a good deal? I did–no shots for me at least for the chem trail soup.
New Memorial Idol to Yarnell:
https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/fallen-granite-mountain-hotshot-crews-honored-with-new-memorial
https://youtu.be/neXnN2gu0Og
https://youtu.be/YrOF2b36IVE
I want to refresh old content here
https://youtu.be/TUNeCgHRY8g
(go to 0.31 seconds to 0.36 seconds, 0.49 sec to 0.54, and the key ones 1.27 to 1.30)
It Matters! It will in the future…
If any of you have Facebook
PLEASE get the time stamp of the video from Dakota.
I will not do SOCIAL MEDIA just for this-
https://youtu.be/Bx0GW5r-DT8
Joy A. Collura says
JUNE 25, 2014 AT 6:12 PM
http://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=483079711774485
the man shown in Video lost his home and lived by the Shrine—
they have a home already rebuilt and live in it.
Reply
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
JUNE 26, 2014 AT 1:25 AM
Just to be clear… the link above is actually Dakota Slone Movie 6 on his Facebook page.
Movie 6 – Sunday, June 30, 2013
Talking to people up on Crest Way.
NOTE: Road sign in video says intersection of ‘Crest Way’ and ‘Happy Way’… so it would appear THIS video was shot BEFORE they were evacuating out the NORTH end of Crest Way and BEFORE his previous two videos.( 4 and 5 ).
Sonny-
you remember this kid
he is the son of the lady Penny Duncan we ended up saving that day on June 30, 2013 and all her pets.
Remember we saw her at the Diner awaiting her other son to pick her up so when we were “tossed out” of #15 by Mary we went to this very area and Penny was told her son could not bring her down nor the other one could not come up so we saved her pets and her that day but if anyone has social media it will help assist in the process of help time stamp my own pics too since we were at her place later after this video
Also around the same time was this-
Information says
JULY 2, 2014 AT 7:29 AM
https://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vii-2/#comment-53450
Joy – when you say things like this that make it seem like there was a burn out when there really wasn’t it causes agony and pain to the families of the deceased GM they actually believe what you are saying. If there was a burn out it is pretty likely that people would know about it by now. Somebody would have said something. The fire that killed GM ws most probbly a spot fire that got out of control. Look at the way Glen Ilah burned. That was all spot fires from the ember wash.
You have already asked people to come forward with their pictures and they will not. Unless you are willing to name names and tell people who to approach to ask for more information I am not sure why you keep posting rumors that only upset and confuse the families of the deceased GM guys. No offense intended Joy.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vii-2/#comment-481384
joy a collura says
NOVEMBER 15, 2019 AT 10:19 AM
Information-
I just read this now
I stand firm about the words I write
As far as naming names … I have in my best way pointed and guided where people can search yet I know the behind the scenes too so yeah I will do it in the best way that gets final results versus toss names out and then it vanishes the data and it has happened in prior times so I am more aware but the family members should know I would not place out information to hurt or harm but to get those people to SPEAK UP! That is facts!
Joy–few people wanted the truth of Yarnell–I was there when you interviewed the former Fire Chief of Peeples Valley–He had told you that he was billing for a more expensive type fire vehicle because it paid more? Was he admitting his fleecing the tax payer or was he just joking? You had him on tape and I don’t think he realized it. Did he not also say that his Peeples Valley responded to Yarnell Hill Calls and vice versa since it paid more to do out of town calls? So who the hell cares about the truth?
I see John Daugherty survive Peru–indeed he was brave and fortunate because exposing wrong doing when it concerns big money and people like Bear Creak Mining Company is an absolute danger in South American countries. Peru is about like Mexico or Guatemala when you threaten government profits there–their politicos are being well paid by the mining companies involved in those open pit operations.
My own Dad had dealt with Bear Creak back in the early 60’s–He said they were a subsidiary of Phillips Dodge and you know their billions involved in places like the open pit at Tyrone, NM and Santa Rita. Here in the states they use political pressure and in the lower rung the police are used through legal wrangling to get a property. But in Mexico in the 80’s when I married that Mexican gal, Angel Consuelo Johnson and spent time in Mexico getting her legal resident papers, it was well known that $300 bucks was the going price for a hit man. Peyuko whom I had bet against in a rooster fight in Casas Grandes, Chihuahua, Mexico had a 45 obvious in his belt. He was known to have 9 notches on it and would have continued except a couple guy from Juarez with a cab took him for a ride outside of Palomas, Chih. and he was found with 32 bullet holes in his body. Likely he killed one of a family that got their revenge–but in those countries La Vida es no mas que un puno de tierra. Puno should have a tlde over it and is pronounced pun’yo and the saying means life is nothing but a hand full of dirt.
So here in the states, the money grubbers kill people by ruining their reputations, taking away their careers, threats, demeaning, and lies. And if you do not think that government agencies are above this then look at the FOIA revelations of the goings ons of the CIA sanctioned by such illustrious Presidents as Reagan, Nixon, and the list goes on. Or look up the Tuskegee incident where 399 black men were given Syphilis and told they were being treated for it with penicillin in a study that was to last 6 months. The truth by a whistle blower proved our Government Health Agency was giving them no treatment at all and was only to observe how the disease progressed for 40 years until in 73 when the whistle blower came on the scene. God only knows how many women those men laid and gave the disease–yet this was an experiment for National Security Reasons? So why would we be concerned about a little lie in the government Forest Service annuals. By now we ought to be calloused to the way things are done–and for certain if big money or reputations are involved then you can bet there will be wilful cover up.
I know Joy has walked a tight wire pretty high up in the air–but give her credit as I also credit John and his Peruvian adventures. I know the Yarnell death incident of killing 19 men was a white wash, but even worse is the white wash of the actual toxic effects of Phosphate retardants on human health and the environment. In fact you can name Yarnell the Guinea Pig town of a massive retardant experiment on human health. With the death count up around 200 in six years after the retardant dumps you are looking at about a third of deceased persons in a town of 645. If that is not a tragedy then what is?
It is kind of like the down winders when over 900 atomic bombs were exploded from the 50’s on and 125 above ground A-bombs, even one hydrogen bomb were exploded at the Nevada test site. The consensus was that it certainly caused many needless cancer deaths downwind and yet people were never even warned they were being doused with atomic fallout. Actually the whole country and other countries suffered from that since the fallout, though mostly west of Nevada Test Site, also spread out across the Northern Hemisphere. Again, so what? They were doing their jobs
An now fracking for oil has increased our oil supplies so much that we are now the chief exporter of oil even above Saudi Arabia and Russia. Thousands of new wells are being drilled since this new invention of taking oil from shale has caused a boom–oil obtained in volume where before it could not be. Yet these wells are spewing benzine, methane, ethane and other deadly chemicals into the air. People living within 500 ft. of a well are now proven to have 40% more cancer–mainly leukemia –from the effects. And I can tell you people outside the area–especially those of taxed immune systems such as the elderly of Yarnell were–will get these cancers and other diseases quickly. Benzene is a deadly chemical and methane is 20 times stronger than carbon dioxide as a global warming factor. But do you expect these trillionaire conspiring oil magnates to pay any mind to the facts?
Knowledge is the beginning of freedom–Wisdom comes from the application of facts.
Before I leave for my daily 6 mile hike and search for more tectites and meteorites–Has anyone heard of any political candidate–including our illustrious President Trump discuss anything about getting us off oil dependence and onto clean energy? What excuse are they using to avoid that move—folks, Solar Energy costs are way down and if you have any do it yourself ability at all, for about $3000 and ebay–especially that guy out of Gilbert, AZ you can set up a system that will run an average American home. So if I can do it even cheaper then I know damn well the government in gross amounts could provide every home and even a set up to charge electric cars for a hell of a lot lest than I would pay. The facts are there and do you wonder why the feds do not want to pay attention? Oil is King –ask King Trump.
Nor can you expect a political candidate to know much–they can’t solve problems but they can talk about them and the costs. They are all owned by corporations–bought and paid for before they get into any office. And who goes there that either supports the status quo.
Trump talks about false news–that is one point that he has going for himself. After all they do belong to the huge corporate and banking institutions. Do you ever hear about them doing anything much beyond the political dance? You have to go to small media or the internet to get decent coverage of things that matter. It really doesn’t make a rats ass whether Trump is there or some Hillary type replacement–there will still be a silly argument over building an iron curtain or not.
Meanwhile there is plenty of technology to get us off oil all the way–solar, wind, tidal waves and geothermal which is forever renewable. Japan has already built a rail system that will do 361 mph off magnets and with way less use of electrical energy cost than the diesel polluting locomotive out of date technology–and the Japanese technology is even outdated with a system that can go through a vacuum tunnel at above 4000 mph–you can be in Japan in less than an hour since the set up can be built underwater and it operates on clean energy and magnetic fields. Yet do you think oil companies are going to let any of this technology out?
Free energy a bug a boo to the oil companies–yet the technology is there and you have not one politician talking about giving it away–that old sun produces enough every day to service the world for many days–but we are told oh this would be too costly to do and so many lies when in truth we should be using that free power and every automobile ought to be out of the oil usage program.
Let me tell you my kids Tesla hits a hundred in a few seconds and will take any old Crysler Hemi that burns hell out of rubber. This electrical technology has been around for a hundred years and better, yet oil is where the profit is –so why develop something that takes away from that giant industry. The real crooks are those wearing the ten thousand dollar suits and gold studded slippers–they are the owners of the corporations and why you see the treachery when someone attempts to challenge them when they do their dirty work.
As an example Bayer had to stop selling blood products tainted with aids to hemophiliacs causing an outbreak in the US so they had to clean it up here–so they sold it in other countries and you can see they are being sued by thousands of HIV victims–yet you can bet the profits will outweigh the cost of the suits. People are just not aware of how heartless and dangerous these people are in big corporations–Business rules the world–not people like Trump or Clinton –purchased puppets of the elite. Countries in a fashion do not really exist–and with the Banks and Companies in charge.
Certainly these companies prefer using the slave labor in other countries, yet we see much of the same here. True that 40% of the wealth of nations is owned by 1% of the population while 35,000 kids die every day. The US spent 162 billion on military expense against Global Terrorism in 2007 because sixty eight Americans had been killed by terrorist attacks in 2004 yet twice as many died of peanut allergies during the same year and 450,000 died of the major cause of US deaths. Yet only 3 billion was spent on heart disease solutions. And the real kicker came in when on Sept. 9, 2011 Bush had full plans to invade Afghanistan then 9-11 happened two days later so the plan went into full war against Iraq and the Taliban. Note that in there was no production of heroine during the Taliban rule of Afghanistan and now that the US is involved 90% of the worlds heroine production is out of Afghanistan. What gives–someone is making big bucks in the heroine business and we don’t care.
So politicians are good for making laws, figuring out how to spend tax monies and budgets–but solving energy problems or how to do technical things like desalinization of sea water or providing better and cleaner energy sources–not going to happen. As for religion and since there are at least 35,000 of them around–throw a dart to one that you might like–maybe you can get some solace there but know that your preacher or priest might be even a molester, murderer or philanderer looking to bed your wife. It is a hard world to look at but with enough knowledge you can free yourself and feel at ease at least to some degree–but trust in this system? The Forest Fire fighting system speaks loudly through Yarnell–but make your own estimations.
There are some solid solutions but as often as not it gets worse before it gets better. My own observations and opinions–not the general public usual way of thinking.
Before I retire for the night–I did do my daily hike and found some interesting rocks. I also took some pictures of aluminum and barium oxide toxins being dispersed–something I wish I could share since the distribution is so obvious. There is a new term used called non lethal war fare–and the dispersion of certain chemicals, biological products and germs can be done that go unnoticed yet escalate debilitating situations for the enemy–is overpopulation the enemy and are these just benign tests? I don’t know but these are certainly not con trails and you only need look up to know.
I was thinking about Joy and how she had saved some by encouraging people to hike–some ladies suffering from extreme obesity where they could barely walk to their refrigerators had taken her advice since she herself had proven by example the good effects of these walks. She had them doing a few hundred feet at a time and there were a few that later had met up with her–she could not recognize them and they were thanking her for saving their lives–they had come down from a weight of in excess of 300 to 400 pounds to a normal weight for their height. People were grateful for the time she gave to encourage them.
As many of you know, I have had several heart attacks–one fatal that put me on life support and another that did also with the others requiring heart stints as well. Six total heart stints, although three attacks took only two stents per attack. Joy had taken me off the fatal one since I had instructions for no life support–that is when I came back immediately. Drug removal of morphine as well helped. I blamed these maladies on the Yarnell retardant drops and our many hikes through them.
They started some time after the drops of 2013 and continued until I left Yarnell. I did not slow down my physical labors until my dog shot me with my 12 guage–then my already lung taxed abilities due to the retardant were really taxed. I could hardly make it to my front gate and it was a chore even getting from my bed to the bathroom for months. Yet after more than a year since I had the clavical shattered, the right lung pierced, three ribs cracked,and shot dispersed throughout the from of my chest, I am hiking 6 miles–not fast but able to mosey along like a turtle.
I say this because it might help someone–my hikes had to start as from barely making it to my pickup to making it barely to the end of God’s four acres to miles. That heart doctor in Phoenix had told me to get a good TV since I was going to be mostly home bound–yet fortunately I have only 10% hearing so I heard only 10% of his prediction.
I have Casino gambled on occasion but it would be hard for me to make a habit of. It is a better gamble walking the desert and many of those people that sit at those machines day after day would do better at walking the outdoors and there gamble on finding a rare thing like a meteorite or a gold nugget–the chances run better than a casino and the hikes are health improvements. Health requires good oxygen intake and hiking improves that–we know in this modern world the oxygen level has been depleated so much in some cities that it is down as low as 5 or 6% where the normal content of air should be above 20%. Without oxygen we die and with little we develop diseases such as heart and lung disease and especially cancer–an anaerobic disease. I am not a medical practitioner but common sense goes a long ways.
So happy trails and good health–and do stay away from the smoke and retardants.
yeah but they may gamble in the desert and come across a bad ombre or rattler too-
hee hee
night, sir.
I did take some hours tonight to rebuild the D.C. posts and aim to get them out before I hit the road again to my next stop- Hoping no more glitches – it is a lengthy post so I am breaking it up into I think four-
I think I will title it:
Part 1 of 4 – Underneath every simple, obvious story about ‘human error,’ there is a deeper, more complex story – a story about the system in which people work. Will these formerly unrevealed public records change the account of what occurred on June 30, 2013? (my D.C. post – I have read and re-wrote so many notes I took from July 2019 – it has been draining.
night Sonny
the lady you mentioned had cancer too so by her getting off that what is tamofen- is that the stuff? and cutting sugars to every ten days – she still remains looking good. I ran into Jeffrey; Anne Marie’s man from the legion … you should see “how many” homes are for sale up in Yarnell- and he seems to think it is because who’s left? It should be a case study some day. Even Scott from Peeples Valley FF I think he had cardiac arrest in such a way they said he ranked that only 1% survive the stuff he went thru in recent times…it is crazy.
Yes it is good news to hear that lady you helped is still doing well even with cancer. I am sorry for the fire fighter–I know how low his chances are of survival–was it nine that died of heart attacks while I was in that hospital for a week at Prescott? Your chances of heart attack survival are slim and if you happen to be a fire fighter your chances of getting a heart attack sky rocket much like the many deaths at Yarnell after the retardant dumps.
Of course they blame those attacks on anything but retardant for the fire fighter–if it were known a fire fighter wage would have to increase by a factor of 2 to 10 since life is guaranteed to be shortened in that occupation due to the hazardous chemical exposure. Do not expect the companies or the high stepping fire fighting gods to inform you but you can bet they are more content sitting in their trucks acting big britches drawing a big check and watching the action from afar of off their monitor on an office desk or sucking on a martini in a meeting somewhere with the girls or boys.a They can assess things in the aftermath and hand out awards and tell the stories to appease the public and offer tissue to the loved ones for the way things get done. Whew if their wisdom was at work at Yarnell then someone ought to start taking a long look at how wild fire situations are handled.
So do not think much will change–If looking back at the history of wild land fire fighting deaths and political subterfuge has any meaning it says things will not get better in time–and if Trump is more honest than the previous knot head then I will eat my hat. But the system is set up so they can not be honest–they are beholden to those monies that put them there and it ain’t that $5 or $100 some dummy sent in to get himself a letter stamped with Trump or Hillary’s name on it. It is the billionaire that dropped a few millions in the bucket because he wants to make sure oil is king, chemicals remain on the market, or pharmaceuticals get a go and so on.
I don’t tell people what to do–that lady doing less sugar and keeping up her hikes has kept herself alive–You know I have a bad memory and have fogotten my meds too often–that doctor at the VA sees me every 6 months and he said you haven’t picked up meds for three months–and I told him well they haven’t sent me any–and he said well you have to order them. So I have been doing the same thing she does–self medicating to a large degree–and some how by nip and tuck was able to survive when I was told that 9 out of 10 I would be dead in a year after the first heart attack. Now that is not good odds but that was some years back–what 5 or 6 and even after the shotgun blast my heart still ticks like a timex watch.
So alternative health measures work wonders for some of us–but we can appreciate life saving procedures to get us back on our feet–one thing blood transfusions –had I not had them on this last ordeal and had been a Johovah Witness, I would be looking at Jehovah instead of my pooch Whitey-Mila. Well maybe not some think I might be looking at the devil–but I see that enough in the shape Shifting Trump or the Reptilian Hillary. Anyway do some blueberries–maybe smoke some weed if you can handle it–they say it is a good cancer cure and I see some documentaries of people swearing their tumors went down and maybe they were seeing some nice sights while they did. That is on a documentary called Marijuana-Gods Plant? You do not know who to believe but people on their death beds are generally quite honest and maybe that could have saved Peggy?
Which reminds me of the over 80 witnesses interviewed about the Roswell incident some were on their death beds beside being high up in the military–and some that said they were threatened with death if they talked about what they saw. Good lord over a balloon? Doesn’t it remind you a bit of Yarnell?
A highlight on that Roswell incident–the undertaker was called at his office to see if he had baby coffins by an Army Officer the day after the Roswell thing went into the paper as a flying saucer. He said he had a a couple on hand and they said they would like to have four. They had some plausible excuse for needing them other than burying babies. Anyway if the Army was doing this to bury balloon parts then that would make sense–I know I was cleaning a toilet floor in basic training because that is the way they cleaned toilet floors in basic training. So story or not–if it were balloons they were damned small occupants when it exploded.
But I must say seeing is not always believing–holograms have gotten really good and God can speak to you via the Army paraphernalia. Just hope he tells you to do the right thing.
Are you talking about Scott that ran the Senior Center? Hell he was young and healthy as a young Bull–another example of life in Yarnell after the retardant dumps of 2013 and 2015–the great massacre of Yarnell starting with 19 young firemen and ending with more than a third of the Yarnell residents–total deaths 19 plus 200 tacked on after in a small village of 645 people.
Scott was a great fellow well liked among the people of Yarnell–especially the elderly whom he served well.
https://ms-my.facebook.com/PeeplesValleyFireDistrict/photos/a.2240393096252214/2273970679561122/?type=3&eid=ARBZeGj2AlW2uSelPC7QgiUhDP3b8rHSRcpAgOYMEs5FpfPCzrYweJ8SRHc1bCxSk-sNViZ2rHm57seA&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARClzaUfFbNgQ0sygEUFqPlR-XLWKjNNzlQSb5R1EuEvx-C6K4UD3JdFQdNOye_gXCBvRnG-s7aqUBrWg54JfNUcEIOScT6gT3TjBsY2VQ4UfdFNT3v54ptdI022bpl5cOIfCowF7YFxJle7B9EAF5-tQ_JT-zwJTf4DZAEqyvte485t_9Lr4PpNlzeLufMSW9BR_E9FD1B8nlyxLNEpOs1KKF9AP6PTXTcRhWe-b4FLR-pwfDe9Sj7f8zlE8f8yIvPGxakkcumfuuyrB0TVg6bx6oTb57x7lNYLcEdbs1sQAzgTdOx3ehf4u6YSCzbBzZhmGfDCxpXrn9w-LSaIC7zT3kDoOG9cgOLKjVfQ-yvLDs3zOr98iunnAmAK7GWeuzHGLn4ImHFJMIaWiWEVJO-5IQsFzsN0RbunboJ4ejNEVRoyzlqFDbgB9ZqC-2vzEjXFVN3fykrR63kYfT5yaJoY-c9v0QtGG6eH0BbQ4EBsL7rkSJqX9PvNLw&__tn__=EHH-R
Peeples Valley FF Scott Mayer not Scott Shephard but Scott Shephard went to Prescott long ago—I think he runs a martial arts place after he left Wickenburg Humane Society
See the new item to Yarnell-
the guy second in on the left in above link is Scott Mayer
I would say the older folks have less reason to fabricate than those in their earning days. Someone beholden to his/her boss for his/her career is likely to overlook fabrications in the institution he/she is involved with. They would be apt to go along with the peer group, but of course there is always the exception–that person that will blow the whistle despite the element of peer disapproval. But people that have retired have less fear of peers and are not so hesitant to tell it as it is. Death bed confessions are also considered as generally reliable.
I though it interesting that Brigadier General Arthur Exon, former commander of Wright Patterson Air Force base testified that there was recovered both bodies and wreckage of alien craft. He said there was a group called the Unholy 13 that managed the secrets and information concerning UFO involvement with earth. Colonel Philip J. Corso retired wrote a book before his death concerning the Roswell Crash. Corso had a very illustrious past, working in intelligence, four years on President Eisenhower’s Defense Staff and dealing with Army contracts to corporations including information he says was back engineering of crashed alien craft at Roswell.
I wonder who would go up to a Brigadier General and call him a bald faced liar or even a Colonel Corso? Military men are prone to stating only the facts–so what are we then to believe? Corso said he was distributing things for back engineering that brought about technology such as kevlar, fiber optics and computer chip technology. It seems like fantasy but when I listen to men retired from wild land fire fighting, perhaps not so far fetched. People like that have no reason to lie and sometimes they prefer to get a lie off their chest and after retirement can do so.
There are many unexplained situations–or maybe the truth is hidden and so unbelievable that we must go along with the norm–call that General and Colonel crack pots? What about the many astronauts that claim they have seen UFO’s that have even tracked their craft within 50 ft. Are they Crack Pots also? Who do you believe when it is a set up so that people are under the thumb of fear–fear of loss of their job or career–fear of peers looking down upon them–fear to offend–fear of judicial proceedings for breaking mum orders and so on.
We know why so many kept their mouths shut at Yarnell–it was generally fear again. If telling the truth is going to cost your job or your retirement then you best sit on your hands and keep mum until you do retire and no one can any longer hold that club over your head. Why you need to come to IM to get at the truth of matters–people here are generally old enough they have lost that fear or have no need of worrying about whether they will be fired or not. Your chances of truth increase greatly with these people–but there will always be a few that will tell the truth even at the risk of their career.
One thing, this Cosmos is said to be over 14 billion years in age–the earth only a bit over 4 billion. So indeed there are trillions of stars and systems out there–and now the new technology has identified at least 3000 planets that could have life–yet with the amount of galaxies and star systems that is said to be a drop in the bucket of how many there really are. So we are in a wee corner of the galaxy–quite primitive since 4 billion years puts us behind some of the hang outs that have existed for 14 billion years. But then there are some that still think the earth is a flat disk you can fall off.
I paid for an on line subscription to the NY times–we all like to keep track of what is going on in the world–and for the past month–all you read about is Trump and his impeachment proceedings. I wondered when something important might come on–for instance what are our Congressmen and leaders doing about weaning us from dependence on oil.
For God’ sake if oil is our only energy source then why the hell are we shipping it out of the country? Personally I think it is a favor–but to be doing that, Trump ought to be yelling at the top of his lungs that someone is a traitor by depleting such a vital resource sending it away to other countries instead of conserving it for our own uses and the future inheritors of this country.
Yes, important thing such as the polluting of our oceans, mining interests that wreck river and natural environments, and plastics–an oil and coal product pollution source –more ocean and land environment pollution, and chemical industries that wreck havoc on health–retardant a big source–all are downplayed while the New York Times worries over petty matters.
I can tell you it makes not one damn difference if Trump is in office or another Yahoo working for the corporations guilty of putting these people in office. If you think it does, just look back at the records of these Presidents in recent history–they are all bought and paid for and all turn out to be nothing more than puppets of big corporations.
Engineers not beholden to these big operations will tell you that the cost of energy should be way down next to free because the technology is there but not used. Environmentalists specializing in keeping track of environmental issued, counts of fish, endangered species with so many going extinct, and situations intolerable in the ocean and the air we breathe will tell you we are in danger of ruining the habitation of the planet for life. Our politicians sometimes give talk but do little and it makes no difference if you have a pretty movie star like Reagan or an ugly fellow like Nixon or a donkey like Clinton–it is not at all important as long as people are kept in the dark about the real issues and making their life easier. Instead, as the years go by and your dollar which continues to devalue, you see more and more need for people to fight debt–needing two jobs, needing all the family slaves to some kind of job just to support a decent life style.
I have lived homeless on the street for more than a year at a time–I am one that would never ask for a hand out as I see many young people standing on the street with a sign begging. So I used to do day work–you can walk into a Labor Ready office in any good sized town and they will put you to work for minimum wage and pay you that same day –you can do it every day and especially if you are a good hand, you will be called out every day. But the wage is minimum wage–while Labor Ready hires you out for more that they keep. The Jobs are temporary and you might find your self loading furniture to stacking cases of food stuff at a factory or even janitorial work. I think I have done them all, even to welding since I have a welding certificate and on that job they tried to keep me for months at a higher wage. Yet when you receive a minimum wage check, it is hardly enough to afford a motel room and since your stomach comes first, you might find yourself sleeping on the street if you don’t have a vehicle or the alternative which I could not do–sleep in a bunk next to a bunch of snoring and farting and unkempt and smelly street people. Similar to what Joy and I did on cots for a week there in the Gym at Yavapai College under Red Cross conditions while Fema had Yarnell under lock down. Of course that was a Cadillac compared to the situations encountered with the street people dives–yet in a place like Helena, Montana in the winter, perhaps a life saving situation. I can tell you that if you do go homeless–try a staition wagon or van, you can always find a shower at a gym and if you can stand the food, the Catholic Charities usually have places and they also will give you a bag of groceries ever so often and will even tell you where other Churches and Charities will help you along. If you become citified and homeless, it is well known that it can become a habit hard to break–there is a certain freedom there and once people have spent a year or two doing it, they are hard put to place into four wall and expect to take up that lifestyle again. And yes there are people with PhD,s out there, and all walks of life from scumbags to genius, kind to animals so it takes a good bit of discernment and street smarts–but doesn’t life in all areas? A Bible in hand is almost like a loaded weapon on the street–scares hell out of many and keeps the flies away pretty well.
So what is sad is to see how little care our politicians have for the environmental issues yet when we look at how they get into office we can understand. You see, Hillary spent 969 million dollars to run, almost a trillion dollars–Trump spent over half a trillion at 561 million to get in. No wonder she is mad–he got in for half of what she raised–but either way who do you think put these millions up–It is a money game, and only corporations and people with big bucks and big agendas lay money out there and in many cases mining interests, oil, pharmaceuticals and other billionaire companies lay money on both sides. They win no matter who looses because they own both candidates. These candidates can not represent you, they have to represent the magnates that own them.
That is not a healthy system–but you see it too much in all governmental systems–When I was Uranium mining, the signs would come down in those hot areas that were not ventilated well enough–dangerous because you were breathing heavy doses of radon gas. Radon Gas is so heavy if you get it concentrated enough such as in a low dip, it can not be expelled from the lungs so it will suffocate you to death. I has happened a number of times in Uranium mining. But regardless of that, Radioactive Radon adheres to carbon from smoking or other sources and metastasizes the lung tissue so you would want a good blower blowing it out through ventilation shafts. And if your are a wild land fire fighter or a smoker, it is not advisable to take up a second job in mining–especially one with radioactive elements involved.
Our only real hope of learning the truth is through people and places that are not tainted and influenced, even coerced into playing the lie. Even our educational systems are drummed down so that you can only find truth through the internet and people outside the box. If you still believe Columbus with the first white man to discover America then you better check out the Norwegians and actual history. The Vikings were here long before Columbus arrived and even had settlements. Any archeologist knows that but most American kids are still celebrating Columbus day–even more appropriate would be Lief Ericson day, yet we ought to celebrate Geronimo day or maybe Pocahontas day–anything since we really don’t know who among the Indians first landed here–but it sure was not Columbus.
How about a little truth in this world–It is sometimes hard to find–and we are good at living out delusions and allowing them as well. Yarnell is a prime example of that–Yes, Joy is out there with the rest of us as a front runner with all those here on IM trying to get the facts out to the public. But generally people involved shamelessly keep back what they know because fear has them buffaloes and Frank Roosevelt said the only thing to fear is fear itself–people thought him so great he was elected a third term–something against the constitution but you can see all good things can be circumvented.
I will keep harping now and again against the retardant dumps–damn sure when they are against a city–but also because those young men have to breath the shit and later in life will pay dearly. Health is most important, especially in the retirement years when people want to be doing life away from the nasty work. Maybe you believe that the multibillionaire world wide phosphate mining companies and retardant dispersers are telling you the truth about the chemicals they dump on you and your towns and environment–but that would be because you have not looked at the facts–how many dead in Yarnell after the massive retardant dumps–and the dead zones of the oceans, proven caused by ammonium and phosphate run off from fertilizers and retardant applications, and the millions of dead aquatic life.
I almost went into environmental studies once for the college major. But in my younger years I was pretty much brainwashed by the corporate assholes that give a damn less about environment, health or giving you free clean and safe energy–unless they can make big profits. JP Morgan shut off Tesla because he said there is no money in free energy. The Tesla motor runs off the same induction electrical motor that Tesla invented in the 30’s. So education and understanding tells us that the way things are and go are too often not the way they should be.
Internet, small media not owned by corporations, people of good and honest reporting and intent, and questioning the veracity of and motives behind such tragedies and how they are reported and investigated as we saw at Yarnell can do the right thing–make the changes need to better living conditions, health, the environment and keep people alive doing the good work.
Do the good journey of truth–It will help alleviate the effects of the chemical retardants that the corporations and FS are so prone to promote.
Correction–Hillary spent almost a billion–and illustrious Trump the business tycoon he is, spent onl a bit over half a billion. Meantime something like 32 thounands of kids die from starvation or disease due to poverty related causes and 40% of the worlds populations live on less than $2 a day–something if you give a homeless guy he will only be able to get one small cup of coffee–not even a large one in a paper cup– I know I pay 1.89 there for a small cup plus tax. The sugar and cream are still free but you can bet they are worth a nickle a pack. in today’s money–
This morning, drinking my own brew and it is good old cowboy coffee you can float a horseshoe in. Just throw the grounds in on the boiling water–and once black enough, sprinkle a little cold water on top to settle the grounds unless you like chewing them–add condiments if you like and go about your business–that would be my pooch and I want to do a hike–she more than I since she became a country dog and found out that chasing a rabbit across the wide open desert without a noose around your neck is marvelous. So is chasing a look at a meteorite even if you never catch one.
Excuse my errors–I will excuse yours if they are unintentional and even maybe in ignorance—but not if you knowingly poison our people, our wild life, our lands, our air, our oceans, and our environments and abuse our lives.
Looking at some Lachatelierite I made myself with an acetylene torch–Tectite silicate (glass).
https://ericmarshfoundation.org/products/a1-4-erics-brew
I wonder if we can do a PEPSI / COCA COLA challenge with your coffee Sonny to the one above-
I think yours is the STOUTEST I ever had 😉
I am still growing hair on my chest-
oh man … oh mud
hee hee
the voice you hear in this video is Dakota and none other but Steve Keehner-
later on it will matter:
https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=483079345107855
Joy I remember that Dakota was Penny’s son. But the video does not make sound on my computer–was the sound taken away since my computer works well on U-tube, etc. So what was said there?
During my never-ending search for the truth about the YH Fire and GMHS debacle, I came across these two Law and Society presentations in Seattle, WA (2015) and New Orleans, LA (2016) respectively, from one of our dear fellow IM truth seekers that many will immediately recognize.
Where Were the Lawyers, Yet Again? Closure, Candor, and the Yarnell Hill Fire Tragedy by Elizabeth Nowicki of Tulane Law School (2015)
( https://www.lawandsociety.org/Seattle2015/docs/2015_Program.pdf )
Investigating Disasters, Wildland Firefighting, and Lessons From The Legal Community by Elizabeth Nowicki of Washington and Lee University (2016)
( https://www.lawandsociety.org/NewOrleans2016/docs/2016_Program.pdf )
Very noble presentation titles indeed.. However, the Law and Society folks apparently keep no archived records of their past papers and presentations which kinda contradicts what they claim below in their Commitments section.
Here is their ” About us ” spew – “The Law and Society Association is an interdisciplinary scholarly organization committed to social scientific, interpretive, and historical analyses of law across multiple social contexts. For sociolegal scholars, law is not only the words of official documents. Law also can be found in the diverse understandings and practices of people interacting within domains that law governs, in the claims that people make for legal redress of injustices, and in the coercive power exercised to enforce lawful order. Sociolegal scholars also address evasions of law, resistance and defiance toward law, and alternatives to law in structuring social relations.
” Our Commitments
“In pursuit of our core vision, the Law and Society Association is committed to:
” Supporting scholarly research and publishing in the field of sociolegal studies, broadly defined
“Bringing together present and future scholars across disciplines, across countries and regions, and across theoretical and methodological traditions
“Recognizing outstanding examples of sociolegal research
“Assisting members in developing their academic careers
“Promoting the study of law as part of a liberal education
“ Disseminating sociolegal research about important public issues to a broad array of audiences
“Advocating the causes of diversity and inclusion in academic and social life”
According to one of the L & S support officials claims that ” Unfortunately, we do not have any papers or presentations from past meetings. ”
So then, apparently – for whatever reason – the commitment prongs of “Supporting scholarly research and publishing in the field of sociolegal studies, broadly defined” and “Disseminating sociolegal research about important public issues to a broad array of audiences” fell by the wayside.
Go to page 72 for the Seattle, WA (2015) paper / presentation and page 119 for the 2016 New Orleans paper.
Where Were the Lawyers, Yet Again? Closure, Candor, and the Yarnell Hill Fire Tragedy by Elizabeth Nowicki of Tulane Law School (2015)
( https://www.lawandsociety.org/Seattle2015/docs/2015_Program.pdf )
Investigating Disasters, Wildland Firefighting, and Lessons From The Legal Community by Elizabeth Nowicki of Washington and Lee University (2016)
( https://www.lawandsociety.org/NewOrleans2016/docs/2016_Program.pdf )
They were kind enough to respond to my inquiry.
“… we do not ask presenters to give us full papers nor do we have the capacity to do so. I would suggest reaching out to the presenter directly to find out if the presentation was every published and where or if they could provide a working draft of the paper that you are interested in. For papers published in our journal, you can access those through the publisher’s website for the Law & Society Review: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/journal/15405893.
I hope this helps. Good luck,
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
Law and Society Association”
Here are my search results from the Wiley Online Library link above for the two Law and Society papers / presentations.
“JSTOR Support Search results
“Search results
“No results for “Investigating Disasters, Wildland Firefighting, and Lessons From The Legal Community – Elizabeth Nowicki, Washington and Lee University”
“Knowledge base
“We couldn’t find any support articles related to “Investigating Disasters, Wildland Firefighting, and Lessons From The Legal Community – Elizabeth Nowicki, Washington and Lee University.” Try browsing our knowledge base”
And the second one …
“Search results
“One result for “Where Were the Lawyers, Yet Again? Closure, Candor, and the Yarnell Hill Fire Tragedy”
Knowledge base
“How to Use Your Free Reads with an Individual Account 195
“JSTOR Support JSTOR Support Independent Researchers 2 years ago
“You read an article, and now you need to reference it again .”
In the original knowledge base search results, the words “and” and “again” are hilited in yellow.
And this was the result of a “chat line” with a JSTOR employee:
“(04:30:29 PM) xxxxxx x: We are a database of journals and publications. We have archive issues of content that has been published by the publishers we work with
“(04:30:49 PM) xxxxxx x: but if something was not published and shared with us, we would not have a record of that content
“(04:30:59 PM) xxxxxx x: you can think of us as a digital library
(04:31:55 PM) xxxxxx x: You may want to try reaching directly out to Elizabeth Nowicki, she may still have the presentation files
“(04:33:03 PM) xxxxxx x: I’m sorry I can’t help you much further than that”
So, in other words, the JSTOR knowledge base browsing for both papers / presentations was equally negative.
Hey Sonny- look at Ered:
https://youtu.be/34CXnod_tOg
http://www.changeinthewind.org/the-artist.html
this is Ered you hiked, Sonny
Wow–just looked at Ered–he went from a young man to looking my age in months–good fellow worked so hard at getting at the truth and carried a lot of concern for the GMHS losses. I know those deaths burdened him much–even his hair greyed in a short time.
Those deaths affected so many in and outside the fire fighting community and there many unhappy that the truth was never officially recognized or told.
https://www.mtexpress.com/news/health/for-attendees-trauma-conference-gives-new-perspective/article_5d77bd62-058d-11ea-979e-b3b8fb83bbdd.html
Another conference for Donut-
600 attendees at this one-
Wow.
Funny part is he told me on 9.28.19 – it was my job and anothers to finish this through not the Survivor’s at all??? Ohhhh …ok….he is on another path… ??? same one as some authors I reckon…
Two days sober off a heroine addiction and he was hired as a wild land fire fighter? Who was doing the hiring practices there–Donut was in no condition to be taking on a job as a wild land fire fighter in that condition. Say, I ran a half way house for over a year as a counselor for alcohol and drug addicts trying to get back on their feet and back into a stable mental and physical condition to where they could cope with life without a drug–it takes more than two days just to detox off a drug much less take on a responsible job–and especially one where your wits must keep you alive.
Those days they were given a 90 day protected environment to keep them away from the drug scene–the temptation to get back on drugs is just too much for an addict if he/she is not kept away from the source and active users. AA and NA work to some degree but drug addicts especially need time and support away from the scene to have a chance at getting clean and sober.
I understood that Donut was back on drugs after the tragedy of the killing of the GMHS crew. I also understand that Marsh had previously used weed although I do not think he used hard drugs and was not using any mind altering substances during the deaths of his crew. But it does show that he was lax in his judgement by allowing a fresh drug user onto his team–and maybe there was a reason he had Donut placed away from the crew that day.
One thing, you can usually tell when someone is on a drug and I suspect that may have been why Marsh had sent a strong young scrapper off to be a watcher instead of a worker that day. And another thing, the crew had a better view of the fire from the two track and in their area only a few yards to the north of where they were working on the hillside would have been the ideal place for a look out. I had often wondered why they would send him down the mountain in a worse position that they were to keep tabs on the behavior of the fire. It was obvious Steed wanted him a long distance from the main crew when he was better stationed only about 50 yards from the crew as a look out position. So that adds up but whether
Donut will ever fess up to the truth–you make that decision off how he has done things from the beginning. And yes his life for the two years likely was quite a blur–and maybe for reasons he has already stated.
Page 72 of the SAIR is the only place it mentions any
evidence of lightning and/or thunder that afternoon
and it was just two quick in-cloud strikes at 4:20 PM.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/state-forestry-divison-fined-nearly-560000-for-mistakes-in-managing-yarnell-hill-fire-that-killed-19-hotshots/#comment-5883
just curious did the SAIR ever insert a PROFESSIONAL meteorologist’s (full name of person) who made such professional analysis to put the above in the SAIR? Just wondering …
Reply to Joy A Collura post on November 14, 2019 at 4:34 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> just curious did the SAIR ever insert a PROFESSIONAL meteorologist’s
>> (full name of person) who made such professional analysis to put
>> the above in the SAIR? Just wondering …
Apparently so ( yes ).
On PDF page 119 of the original SAIR…
—————————————————————
Investigation Team
J. Brent Wachter, Incident Meteorologist, National Weather Service ( NWS ), Albuquereque
—————————————————————
J. Brent Wachter’s ‘zoominfo’ business profile online…
https://www.zoominfo.com/p/Brent-Wachter/172747561
—————————————————————-
Brent Wachter Business Profile
IMET and Fire Weather Forecaster at National Weather Service
—————————————————————-
U.S. National Weather Service
What is an IMET?
https://www.facebook.com/NWS/posts/an-incident-meteorologist-imet-is-an-nws-meteorologist-specially-trained-to-prov/10154646706429041/
————————————————————————-
An Incident Meteorologist ( IMET) is a ( professional ) NWS meteorologist specially trained to provide onsite weather support at wildfires and other all-hazard incidents.
————————————————————————-
the same man who was a part to my original interview-
interesting.
Sorry, Brent because I actually have enjoyed your work but as we move forward-
are you standing firm with the SAIT SAIR, sir? and the weather insert(s)? Just would like to know-
Your name was on page 119 (huh) yet are you okay with all that was placed out public or have you went to the Fire Weather Forensic depth yet on the topic and would you be willing to state public you firmly stand by the SAIT/SAIR?
just wanna know
thanks wtkkt.
Maybe there is room for more … ya think. sir?
are you sure, wtktt?
Was Byron Kimball acting like weather guy only on YH Fire and Maxwell?
I am thinking there was no IMET on this and Brent was just part of the SAIT investigation not so much a weather anlaysis guy-
I will have to re-peak at page 119
Reply to joy a collura post on November 14, 2019 at 9:19 pm
>> joy a collura said…
>>
>> are you sure, wtktt?
There is no documentation I know of that establishes exactly WHO wrote WHICH parts of the actual original SAIT.
I’m just assuming that the only professional meteorologist listed as part of the SAIT investigation team ( J. Brent Wachter ) actually had a part in writing the weather-related parts of the report.
I don’t think they would have used him for the fire-shelter damage sections… but hey… ya never know.
The National Weather Service employs some 80+ IMETs, and they are available to be assigned in real-time to serious wildland fire incidents… but there was no actual IMET assigned during the first 3 days of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
All they had ’employed’ and ‘onsite’ on Sunday, June 30, 2013 was an FBAN. ( Fire Behavior Analyst ).
That FBAN was Byron Kimball.
Just wondering as I train up and get more educated that Sonny is right about his PhD- P.- PILED H.- HIGHER D.- DEEPER- piled higher and deeper-
blows me a way how the ones all these years just let it go that know much more- I am working on action behind the scenes besides the norm conferences and presentations and schooling/training/courses…may seem like I vanished because my blog had been under investigation and that part is awaiting to break the posts smaller so they can properly assess and analyze it. Meanwhile some pretty huge blessings are happening and I know we all get frustrated but boy you cannot make this shit up if I could chat freely but unable to- but I need to ensure the rest of this gets out in a very powerful way that documents/interviews/photos/videos do not just vanish and etc. …
Sonny, remember the embossed land restriction on June 16, 2013 – there is also a mention with same date in SAIR –
“The Southwest Coordination Center’s Predictive Services issued a Fire Behavior Advisory on June 16, 2013 that discussed critically low fuel moistures and increased fuel loading.” (Background. pg 8 SAIR) so maybe we will be able to re-surface that document eh.
with my learning the advanced technologies available as a common civilian – now “student of fire” – do you think when THAT MANY MEN die that this was sufficient for a weather insert with the advanced tools available to those in that field … just asking…shame on the folks for not going the extra when so many died.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
November 15, 2019 at 9:05 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Sonny, remember the embossed land restriction
>> on June 16, 2013 – there is also a mention
>> with same date in SAIR – “The Southwest
>> Coordination Center’s Predictive Services issued
>> a Fire Behavior Advisory on June 16, 2013
>> that discussed critically low fuel moistures and
>> increased fuel loading.” (Background. pg 8 SAIR)
In the article linked to below is a copy of that same June 16, 2013 SWCC Predictive Services advisory.
Here are some of the notable WARNINGS contained in that SWCC June 16, 2013 advisory…
Keep in mind that these WARNINGS were being issued by the SWCC to ALL Arizona and New Mexico firefighting agencies and personnel just 14 days before the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy.
—————————————————————
Surface fire intensity and fire behavior may change abruptly…
Firefighters should acknowledge that fire growth and fire behavior they encounter this year may exceed anything they have experienced before due to the drought factor.
Normal strategies and tactics may need to be adjusted to account for the drought factor.
—————————————————————-
Here is the article that contains a copy of that June 16, 2013 SWCC Predictive Services advisory…
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Another Fuels and Fire Behavior Advisory — this time, Arizona and New Mexico
Published: June 18, 2013 – By Bill Gabbert
https://wildfiretoday.com/2013/06/18/another-fuels-and-fire-behavior-advisory-this-time-arizona-and-new-mexico/
From that article…
—————————————————————–
One of the Predictive Services offices has issued another Fuels and Fire Behavior Advisory. The last one, issued June 10, was for California. This new one, dated June 16, is for portions of Arizona and New Mexico.
The advisory does not mention the “Southwest Monsoon,” an event that typically starts in early July and generally begins to draw the curtain on the fire season in Arizona, New Mexico, West Texas, southern Utah and southwestern Colorado.
——————————————————————
Below is the full text of the June 16 SWCC advisory…
——————————————————————
Southwest Coordination Center ( SWCC )
Predictive Services
Fuels and Fire Behavior Advisory for Arizona and New Mexico
Date Issued: June 16, 2013
Subject: Persistent multi-year drought across much of New Mexico and Arizona has dropped fuel moistures to critically low levels in the large dead and live foliar fuels. These critically low fuel moistures increase available fuel loading which contributes to and supports active crown fire in timber fuels when critical fire weather is present.
Discussion: The multi-year drought has reduced the fine fuel loading across most of the region so the focus for this advisory will be the timber fuels within the region.
Difference from normal conditions: Drought creates more available fuel in timber fuel types which will increase fire intensities, crown fire potential and difficulty of control for fire suppression resources. Short duration rain events provide only short term fuel moisture improvement in timber litter fuels (1, 10, and 100 hour dead fuels). Fuels rebound quickly to previous dryness levels. Short duration rain events provide no fuel moisture recovery in large dead and live foliar fuels.
Concerns to Firefighters and the Public:
– Surface fire will quickly transition to crown fire and only requires low to moderate surface fire intensity to transition.
– Active/running crown fire has produced long range spotting up to one mile under the influence of an unstable atmosphere.
– Active fire behavior can extend well into night and early morning hours even with moderate RH recovery.
– Thunderstorm activity will create a mosaic pattern of surface fuel moistures.
– Surface fire intensity and fire behavior may change abruptly when fires cross these boundaries of moist and dry surface fuels.
Mitigation Measures:
– Local briefings need to be thorough and highlight specific fire environment conditions. These include but are not limited to local weather forecasts, Pocket Cards, ERC’s, live and dead fuel moistures, and special fuel conditions such as drought and insect mortality
– Lookouts, both on the ground and in the air, can help identify the initiation and location of crown fire. They can also provide the location of resultant spot fires from active crown fire.
– Firefighters should acknowledge that fire growth and fire behavior they encounter this year may exceed anything they have experienced before due to the drought factor.
– Normal strategies and tactics may need to be adjusted to account for the drought factor.
The timber fuels within this area of concern are the target for this fire behavior advisory.”
————————————————————–
There were no claps of thunder heard by us or any rain drops at all and even as we were leaving Yarnell and descending down the mountain–Joy has good hearing and I hear the lower ranges where thunder sounds–nothing and yes there was plenty of falling ash and cinders as we decended the mountain and passed the Ranch House Restaurant where all the FF were already assembled and the GMHS by that time were dead. So if anything, thunder should have had them running the other way, not down into a trap.
and where is that true weather analysis- We heard Elizabeth Nowicki did a presentation on Yarnell Weather so I would like to see a copy of that presentation- is that in the wayback archival anywhere?
CDF / Cal Fire Kincade Fire Shelter Deployment (2019) Blue and Green Sheets
Go to WFLLC Incident Reviews
“It appears that the small burnout done by DIVS1 provided a shelter deployment site that did not receive direct flame contact – important for a successful shelter deployment.”
What prepares you for a successful entrapment?
19-CA-LNU-019577 – California Northern Region
SUMMARY
On October 25, 2019 at approximately 4:23 PM, while assigned as a Division Supervisor on the Kincade Fire, in Sonoma County, California, a CAL FIRE Fire Captain and two civilians became entrapped when their route of travel was cut off by fire. The Fire Captain defensively fired out the area and deployed a fire shelter, protecting the group from the fire’s radiant heat. During the deployment, the group needed to relocate due to the changing conditions. The Fire Captain and two civilians were transported to local medical facilities to be evaluated. All three individuals were released the same day with no injuries.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on November 14, 2019 at 3:37 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> CDF / Cal Fire Kincade Fire Shelter Deployment (2019) Blue and Green Sheets
>>
>> Go to WFLLC Incident Reviews
Here is a direct link to the documents…
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( Hosted by the National Park Service )
Kincade Fire Shelter Deployment (2019)
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=b4ff8da4-3254-420c-80ca-75d4e5c68ee5
CDF / Cal Fire Kincade Fire Shelter Deployment (2019) Blue and Green Sheets
Go to Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center Incident Reviews
“It appears that the small burnout done by DIVS1 provided a shelter deployment site that did not receive direct flame contact – important for a successful shelter deployment.”
What prepares you for a successful entrapment?
19-CA-LNU-019577 – California Northern Region
SUMMARY
On October 25, 2019 at approximately 4:23 PM, while assigned as a Division Supervisor on the Kincade Fire, in Sonoma County, California, a CAL FIRE Fire Captain and two civilians became entrapped when their route of travel was cut off by fire. The Fire Captain defensively fired out the area and deployed a fire shelter, protecting the group from the fire’s radiant heat. During the deployment, the group needed to relocate due to the changing conditions. The Fire Captain and two civilians were transported to local medical facilities to be evaluated. All three individuals were released the same day with no injuries.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/#comment-4252
“I don’t know if it will ever be proved
whether your items were ‘mysteriously
confiscate’ or just truly stolen… but
it still seems odd that someone would
take that list of items you just provided
and then also take an SD card.
Something just doesn’t quite seem
right there. I hope we learn more about
that someday.”
—————————–
(timestamp for Joy) (July 19, 2019 I learned a huge possibility to who and whys) ( Unfortunately not yet for in depth public discussion but much will be shared in His time )
But yes there may be a final closure to that inquiry and when able I will share first to WTKTT behind the scenes in person.
Alot is unfolding behind the scenes that it screams to be out and I am still at it … a lot is on their legal review as well as my own- but it is still rolling …
Wtktt, is there three main areas ( or more ) you want to see out in the public eye right now
It will help me in the flow and you can back channel if it you want yet you have been a solid devoted person and I wanted to make sure your questions get answers when this rolls out …
the world does not even realize how much you matter and how misjudged you have been treated over time and I want that to be covered when it all unfolds. Thank you for all your hardwork from the get-go when you began to light up IM October 2013 the most with so much dedicated hours.
God Bless People like WTKTT-
early on – his video https://youtu.be/HhN2wNNS2no
Sonny, https://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/#comment-4882
I would like you to review that video and “confirm” that was the way what was to happen that day by watching that video without me adding any data- just want your pure feedback not what you think I want to hear…just your opinion with looking at the video again-
It matters.
And here is another wildland firefighting research paper titled: Performing Under Uncertainty:Contextualized Engagement in Wildland Firefighting by Michelle A. Barton, Kathleen M. Sutcliffe, Timothy J. Vogus, and Theodore DeWitt published in 2014.
Yet any and all mention of the June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire is conspicuously absent.
( https://www.academia.edu/15544792/Performing_Under_Uncertainty_Contextualized_Engagement_in_Wildland_Firefighting?email_work_card=view-paper )
The authors “… test our hypotheses in the context of wildland firefighting,a context in which surprises can be deadly, and making adjustments to ongoing action before they can turn into a tragic flaw (Perin, 2005) is critical.”
“Managing uncertainty and ambiguity requires attention and alertness, but it also requires discernment, understanding what emerging cues signify, interpreting changes in those cues and determining how [behaviors] can be adjusted in response.”
The authors point out that “… ‘important signals’ change as the details of the current situation change (Sutcliffe & Weick, 2008).”
Sounds a lot like the June 30, 2013, YH Fire and GMHS debacle, but apparently that was not enough to even be mentioned in a research paper in 2014 examining performing under uncertainty … or were they performing under certainty?
You certainly can not understand how they could leave out mention of Yarnell, the most screwed up wild fie attempt of the century and a historical event of the greatest fire tragedy of 19 young wild land GMHS fire fighters that was caused by failure to even consider safety rules or apply them to the situation at hand. But you can understand if you see what the situation among wild fire fighter educators lies.
It can be compared to Andrew Gilligan’s being fired from BBC. (Joy sent me this) He wrote an article that did not hit well with the Muslim community–when we talk Muslims we also talk oil, big money, interests in media by proxy and by financial interests–so like anything else people are walking a tight rope with their careers at stake should they make implications that those in charge see their money trees threatened. A money tree can only survive by being watered with money–something the Muslims that matter in politics have plenty of besides the ever threat that oil could be cut off. Trump, Bush, and every political donkey or fat elephant does not want–nor do the Rockefellers or any other industrialist–car companies plastic induatries,, etc. whose money trees also depend upon oil. So Andrew has his Journalistic career threatened–maybe even his life now since he is not a favorite of Muslims. I have a grandson named Andrew Gilligan, but this Andrew is of British birth best I can tell–only related by distance and time.
In my way of thinking, I agree with Andrew–though he erred by not getting his facts correct==he was generally intending to say the Muslims are not necessarily your friend and generally the Imams do not object to the killing of Jews and other Infidel types. I have not heard of any of the Imams setting themselves afire or doing the terrorist thing of blowing themselves up in a crowd of infidels (does Allah give them special privileges?)-but many of them certainly encourage their followers to do so.f People die for lack of knowledge–and the religious leaders take advantage of that ignorance. Any Muslim of half a brain would demand that the Imam give example–at least be along with extra fire works when the terrorist act is committed. But as the rule goes, few will question the self acclaimed authority.
One British General had a good idea of how to stop the Muslim onslaught–shoot the Imam and wrap him in a pig skin. to bury him. He did it to everyone he could that was a Muslim and it did put a lull in Muslim attacks on his troops. What the hell was he doing on Muslim lands in the first place?–Oil of course–we can not live without oil–or at least the greedy oil magnates can not do without the profits and while they get filthy rich most of the populations where they steal the oil live in the worst of conditions and tragedy brought on by this oil business.
I would be one to keep out of Muslim lands, but on the other hand I would want them to keep out of American Lands. Of course Bush, et. al., say welcome to the New World Order where there will be no National Borders–and I sometimes wonder if that is why Trump is so detested by the other side. Trump is not friendly to the poor or minorities–yet he does want to defend Sovereignty–so like all politicos at least he puts up a good show on a few things. Yet, if he really wants to make America Great Again then get the rest of our troops out of those Muslim lands and wean this country from the oil dependent economy–but he can not–he is the business man with no concern for anything but money. Sadly, we have the technology to do just that–and I suspect know how to lock into almost totally free energy with that sun beaming down on us the way it does. But don’t hold your breath–even the water you drink makes profit for someone since our water supplies are polluted. But this should not be-yet we live in a world that your soul has been sold for profit.
So it is with the powers that be in the FS and Wild Land Fire fighting–
This a test for a YouTube video of the August 2018 Howe Ridge Fire in Glacier NP just commented on. Posting this to see if my post posted.
Very impressive nighttime fire behavior
“Video shows rapid growth of Howe Ridge Fire in Glacier National Park”
( https://youtu.be/M6ZmJLOqq5s )
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6ZmJLOqq5s )
You okay RTS?
I went to the links and I did not see any at all
not one
do you see any comments on that link, Sonny?
Joy,
Thank you for pointing out the shortcomings of my YouTube posts on the 2018 Howe Ridge Fire in Glacier NP.
It was the actual, original website links that messed it up. Just separating the https to h t t p s and www to w w w remedied it, so try it now.
It posted as “edited” on my end and that’s removed now
RTS,
nope it shows ZERO comments
No, could not see them but here he is on IM. So who knows?
What I would like to see–a person run for office that would demand that redacted and blacked out pages of FS investigative documents in death cases be open to FOIA –Forest Service documents relating to deaths during fire fighting situations are not National Security related–they should never be redacted except for perhaps addresses and phone numbers of people involved.
I would want UFO documents obtained by the CIA opened up just as the FS documents. Good lord the documents sent out on UFO’s by the CIA have nearly every page totally redacted on 154 documents. What is it like the FS that the government does not want the public to know–makes me think we really do have shape shifting liars of alien blood in the White House and high public offices. Give us some truth for God’s sake–we can handle it–and if you don’t you show your true colors.
Someone that will wean us from the oil industries. I know he/she will need a bullet proof vest since America has hit men about as cheap as anywhere and there are mind experiments that work–psychologists and psychiatrists have proven it and CIA has fine tuned the process in the name of National Security issues.
A person that knows the concerns of chemicals on health and the welfare of the people and environment and the causes of the death of aquatic life and the cause of ocean dead zones–well known but continues.
This person will be concerned about the welfare of Americans and know that house cleaning begins at home. I can not run my business and yours too–we need to let other nations take care of their affairs without believing we are the masters of taking care of the world of problems. It is bull shit to interfere and generally when our politicians do it then it is for reasons to benefit some big interests. What did the Bush gang after all gain out of the Iraq wars?–Oil and money and support for their own personal and friends benefits–those big operators in Oil generally and even Halliburton and War Industries.
A person determined to produce free energy for the people and stop the pollution leading to global warming.
That should be enough for starters–but I am sure people can add some important issues that need to be on the forefront.
There was a time I would have believed Global Warming a false science–however, Satellite Maps give a different story and world temperature averages are up. Regional Climate changes are certain.
But natural or unnatural world changes–oil and coal products are world pollution–I certainly can remember when your eyes would water in the 60’s in Pasadena, California until laws were passed to slow down some of the polluting effects of oil, gasoline and diesel burning machinery. Yet this world’s population has increased almost to the 7 billi0n mark and other countries such as India, China, Brazil and others are becoming major polluters along with the US. There is a good documentary made up by 250 scientists that spent a year in Arctic studies for a year with every country involved with Canadian scientists well represented–their conclusions are based on a years study on site–and they conclude that yes there is global warming escalated by increased carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, Florine, methane, and other pollutants. Increasing these type gases in the atmosphere will increase trapping the heat and yes the regional changes but they eventually translate to the world.
Clean air is good. Polluted not so good. And oily air very noxious.
You have to trust and verify satellite maps too
I know that when a leak was placed out
Just because a map shows something…does not necessarily mean the true form and message…
Here’s another worthwhile wildland fire research paper to check out titled: “Career stages in wildland firefighting: implications for voice in risky situations” from the International Journal of Wildland Fire (IAWF), 20 (2012) pp. 115–124
( https://www.academia.edu/11549601/Career_stages_in_wildland_firefighting_implications_for_voice_in_risky_situations )
Their abstract will hopefully convince you to check it out. And like most PhD-type papers, unless you really want to delve into the weeds, focus on the Abstract, Discussion, Conclusion, and avoid the Methods and Results sections.
The three authors explore factors influencing speaking up (‘voice’) in the wildland fire arena.
“Abstract. Avoidance of injury and death on the fireline may depend on firefighters voicing their concerns, but often this does not occur. Reasons for employee reticence identified in the literature include a perception of various personal costs or a belief that raising concerns is futile. Additionally, the social context may play a significant role. In a qualitative study using in-depth interviews with 36 wildland firefighters in the US, we explored reasons firefighters do or do not voice concerns. Findings revealed two primary themes related to initiating voice (limits to environmental perception and social
influence) that vary considerably depending on a firefighter’s career stage. Additionally, the tactics that firefighters use similarly vary with career stage. Rookies (novice firefighters) often lack the ability to discern and interpret environmental cues, rely on others to ensure safety, fear being stigmatised if they voice worries, and may believe no one will listen to them. Veteran firefighters – both mid-career experienced firefighters and expert veterans in high-experience leadership roles – are better able than rookies to perceive and describe risky situations and feel more confident to raise concerns.
However, experienced firefighters still face social pressures that may lead them to remain silent. Expert veterans face fewer social pressures, but their roles can put them in situations where they are either complacent or distracted. Implications of these findings for firefighter training and fire leadership are discussed.”
It focuses on three groups of WFs – the Rookies (novice firefighters) and the Veteran firefighters – both mid-career experienced firefighters and expert veterans in high-experience leadership roles.
The anecdotes are qualified by male / female, type of resource (Engine, Hand Crew, Hot Shot Crew, etc.), and number of seasons / years of experience.
This research was supported by funding from the USDA Forest Service so definitely keep that in mind. However, I think you’ll readily notice that the participant comments are fairly forthright and credible.
Good to see there is after all some in the FS taking safety issues seriously. It would be even greater should they begin to address the chemical issues in greater detail. But I can tell you it will not happen simply because any FS person presenting details on how phosphates, ammonium nitrates, halogenated barium and unknown chemical slop added under secret ingredient laws, are all poisons. Hundreds of thousands of fish–photos proving this where phosphates enter streams–will continue to be killed by the abundant dumping of these chemicals into drainage areas. But any FS person presenting this type evidence–including the retardant caused ocean dead zones–will be placed on a shit list to end his/her career. Honesty can not be the best career policy should you work in Wild Land Fire Fighting or Forest Operations.
Trump will back the idea that billions are made–jobs are made and America is all the greater for these chemical products. He and his cronies have dollar signs in their eyes–they can not see the dead fish photos, the dead elderly by the scores at Yarnell, the dead ocean zones from the chemical retardants and the ruination of people’s health from these chemicals.
Though they deny phosphates and ammonium nitrates as poisons, they have banned some of the hydrogenated Bromides or at least attested to their danger–and Barium salt is a deadly poison to humans as well as wild life.
You may not need embalming if they can add a few more to your diet and smoking is a disaster to health–and smoking retardant will dim your wits (retard you and your health.
And why do people think we would be harmed by free or near free energy—Trump would say if we get off oil the economy will go to hell but what really would go to hell would be the huge industrial giant profits.
A huge part of people’s income is spent on energy–the electric bill, the gasoline use, the motor oil, and the like. Yet if energy becomes free or cheap your salary needs will decrease–maybe even your household can survive without both married couples having to work. Producing goods will be much cheaper and prices lowered substantially– In reality life all around would be much easier and more time to pursue outside interests beside the job. There will be many people in Phoenix type areas of extreme or even extreme cold that the energy bill will not be a concern and those that could not afford the expensive oil-coal-nuclear energy based economy will be able to live comfortably by the free energy.
This is not a pipe dream–solar energy from panels that are now down to $100 for a 325 watt panel last for beyond 20 years-depleated by only 20% in that time. Yet there are newer more technical improvements over those. But do you hear even one of the political leaders and wanna bees saying one damn thing about doing what is right for the people? O h they argue over so called better health care plans and whether Trump and Biden are liars or not–and Trump crap on the news or on Face Book–but when will they talk about matters that concern people and the environment?
Global warming is real–carbon monoxide and other chemicals are causing changes–oil and coal are the big offenders–but how do you change anything when your politicians depend on money from the oil based industries When will someone step up to the plate and let the public know we are being fleecedl? Trump came in knowing people are fed up with the political bullshit–too many now know that the system is wrong–Trump and every other billionaire or Trillionaire have enough–it is time that the oil, coal and nuclear industries are shut down and the cheap sun, wind and water energies be provided to the poor and middle classes at the expense of cutting some of the profits of those oil based magnates.
So when I see someone talking sense to the masses, then I will cast a vote.
I disagree. Global warming is based on junk science and not real.
And 31,000 scientists say there is “no convincing evidence” that humans can or will cause global warming.
( http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/myths/31000-scientists-say-no-convincing-evidence )
Estimated 40 Percent of Scientists Doubt Manmade Global Warming
( https://www.nas.org/blogs/press_release/estimated_40_percent_of_scientists_doubt_manmade_global_warming )
Our planet has been warming and cooling for thousands of years, so count me in with the Global Warming deniers
” Unseasonably Cold Arctic Airmass East of Rockies; Warm Conditions in the West
( https://www.wpc.ncep.noaa.gov/discussions/hpcdiscussions.php?disc=pmdspd )
It’s GLOBAL Warming NOT Regional Warming!
“Short Range Forecast Discussion – NWS Weather Prediction Center College Park MD – 258 PM EST Sun Nov 10 2019
“Valid 00Z Mon Nov 11 2019 – 00Z Wed Nov 13 2019
” The next surge of arctic air is poised to bring the coldest
temperatures so far this season for much of the central and eastern U.S.
for early in the week.
” The second Arctic intrusion in less than a week is now arriving across the Plains and Midwest Sunday afternoon, with a pronounced cold front quickly dropping southeastward along and east of the Rockies. This episode of cold weather is associated with a 1045 mb surface high, which is close to some monthly pressure records for November. By Monday evening, the front is expected to reach northern Mexico and the Appalachians with an abrupt drop in temperatures behind it, leading to some impressive 24-hour temperature changes on the order of 30 to 40+ degrees possible! It will feel more like the middle of January for the beginning of the week, with numerous record low temperatures likely from Texas to the Great Lakes.
‘ Snow is expected for much of Montana and the western Dakotas through Sunday evening owing to upslope flow behind the front along with a shortwave passage aloft. Winter weather advisories and some winter storm warnings are in effect, mainly for central and eastern Montana where snowfall totals in the 4 to 8 inch range could be realized by Sunday night. Snow is also expected to develop over northern New England by Monday night and early Tuesday as a surface low develops along the arctic front, and lake effect snow will increase across much of Michigan. Winter storm watches are in effect for some of these areas.
Yeah right … Global friggin’ warming indeed … ‘
Well said RTS. And don’t even get me started on the amount of recourses, energy and chemicals it takes to create a solar panel.
The disposal of it when it wears out is even worse. I am all for clean air and water but it has to be done sensibly.
Reply to Charlie post on October 26, 2019 at 8:47 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> We have enough of our own slave labor in the prison system–even use
>> them to fight fires and now need more of their free labor with
>> the fires growing and more intense.
New article…
CNN News
Article Title: Prison inmates are fighting California’s fires, but are often denied firefighting jobs after their release
Published: 3:46 PM ET, Thu October 31, 2019 – By Isabelle Chapman, CNN
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/31/us/prison-inmates-fight-california-fires-trnd/index.html
From that article…
————————————————————————————————————
When a roaring wildfire approached Janet and Dan Condron’s door in Santa Rosa, California, in 2017, they were certain their home would be destroyed. The retired couple decided to evacuate. That’s when an unexpected firefighting crew appeared on their cul-du-sac and got to work, creating a break in the fire that ultimately saved the Condrons’ home.
These firefighters weren’t from the fire department — they were from a nearby correctional facility.
“I don’t think we would still have our homes if it wasn’t for those 26 individuals,” said Dan Condron.
Prisoners on the front lines
California employs about 3,100 inmates as part of the state’s Conservation Camp program, which provides critical support to state and federal agencies responding to emergencies such as wildfires, floods and other disasters. About 2,150 of those inmates are authorized to fight fires.
As multiple fires rage across California, the role firefighting inmates play is coming under renewed scrutiny.
Despite their extensive training and heroic efforts in times of crisis, these inmates are often denied roles in fire departments after they’re released…
“These inmates go through the training and then they want to go on and pursue additional training and that door is closed to them,” says Mark Farouk, a spokesman for California Assemblywoman Eloise Reyes, who earlier this year introduced a bill that seeks to ease restrictions on ex-convicts. The bill has stalled in the state government, but may be considered again in January, Farouk says.
On-the-job training
Under the Conservation Camp program, which is jointly run by the Department of Forestry and Fire Protection and the Los Angeles Fire Department, only low-security prisoners with a record of good behavior are eligible.
Those who volunteer receive the same entry-level training that the state’s seasonal firefighters receive. The inmates work long hours, earning between $2.90 and $5.12 a day, and an additional $1 an hour when they’re battling fires.
The wages are higher than most other prison jobs, but come with significantly greater risk. Since 1983, at least six incarcerated firefighters have died on duty.
Last month, Gov. Gavin Newsom signed legislation that will help former prisoners assist in emergency response units, but stops short of allowing them to become full-fledged firefighters.
“Inmate fire crews consist of men and women who have trained through a special program and risk their lives to protect the public,” said Assemblywoman Wendy Carrillo, who authored the bill. “Once an individual has paid their debt to society and served their time, they should be able to reintegrate back to society and have an opportunity for a good job and live a stable life with dignity.”
But some say the law doesn’t do enough to fix the problem. “This is a bill that puts lipstick on a pig and doesn’t tackle the real problem,” says Katherine Katcher, the founder of Root & Rebound, an advocacy group for former inmates.
California has plenty of applicants for fire department jobs, says Carroll Wills, a representative for California Professional Firefighters, an advocacy group. But the state needs more people who can assist in emergencies by clearing brush and trees.
“As these incidents become more frequent and more dangerous, additional resources are necessary,” Wills said.
———————————————————————————————————-
Education and knowledge are powerful–The influences that peddle the chemicals, those that operate outside of good knowledge and wisdom and others making bad decisions are happy to keep that knowledge from the public and too much of the public is happy not to bother to get the education. It is easier to trust the so called experts do their thinking. When a politician or any other authority of the situation says trust me, especially more that once–then I am really looking at what I am told.
The experts that put Building 7 and even the twin towers together are suspect? Lots of people think Building 7 especially was an expert job on how to demolish a building by implosion. Once I saw the method, I could have done it myself. It is really a fairly simple operation to do but you need to know how to use explosives and they have some special ones to cut steel with. But you can not light a fire on the 7th floor and make the building fall–I has never happened before in the history of since they have been putting buildings up with steel–just not possible. –but people believe an office fire brought the building down–knowledge of 1700 wise engineers has been over ridden by political clout. Big money rules–and we are not the wiser.
I believe Joy, WTKTT, RTS, Honda, Woodsman, Norb, DND, Gary, and so many other professionals have taken on the false story put out by the FS, et. al. to a good degree with revelations still cropping up to make the original take look like Swiss cheese. That is good since truth matters–especially to those that lost loved ones and also to the safety changes needed to be addressed for future wild land fire fighters. Lives matter but also tax payers weigh in–citizens need to know and not be fed a line of baloney-they after all provide the funds for the public servants.
But I am concerned as well with the chemical situation–and how these chemical companies are raking in huge profits at the taxpayer expense and health as well as environmental damage. As an example, fluorine was a chemical waste product good only for rat poison. It is actually one of the most deadly neurotoxins existing. In fact if you talk with pilots who have transferred this deadly chemical, it comes in a yellow barrel with cross bones on four sided of the barrel–poison. Anyone even touching the barrel with bare hands is told to immediately seek medical attention. Yet this stuff is dumped into your water supplies. Sorry but not my water supply–it comes from my own well and is a pure spring water situation. But isn’t it amazing how little people know about the chemicals used on them. We just want to believe that our governing bodies and chemical companies would never lie to them–Yet few have really read the history of companies like Monsanto and how they have thought their decades of existence have knowing poisoned the populace–were fined on some occasions, yet continue–profits are king and just as fluorine is nothing but pure neurotoxin rat poison, it continues to be dumped into the citizen water supplies.
So too are the neurotoxin Bromates used in fire retardants as well as dispersed in the air in small particles along with the aluminum oxides. One wonders if indeed there is a conspiracy to bring the population down to what is considered an acceptable level. And if 800 million is an acceptable level that 160 brilliant scientists decided needed to be done by 2030, then they need to get busy doing their dirty work. That is only ten years away. And believe me there are many that opine like the billionaire Ted Turner–“this world has too many eaters”.
For water–I prefer distilled if it is going to be town water–leave off the fluorine rat poison. I don’t want any of that neurotoxin rat poison in my body.
Now few know that the government was able to use 28 billion in 96 as black operations money. How much more since then. The users have developed some fine technology. In fact back in 1963 during the Cuba thing they were able to put holograms of the Virgin Mary in the skies above Cuba in hopes of causeing people to revolt against Castro. It did not work but you can imagine that since 1963 the technology had immensely improved. So were the Phoenix lights a part of that Technology–some think so, just as there are patents now where messages can be sent to the human brain by riding sound waves on microwave. Some of the Iraqi soldiers were getting messages they thought were coming from God telling them to do things.
So, my way of thinking, Yarnell is only a small example of how people can be fed a line and yet the great majority are happy to accept without protest. Don’t give us the facts–we can’t handle them.
https://youtu.be/FtbIXt5R2p4
Sorry that should have been messages from Allah —I don’t think they like the American God nor want any messages from God or especially Jesus the non murderous type god.
So I had to think about technology–The fellows who are in the think tanks believe in a few decades 50% of the jobs will be done by robotic action and technologies. So the on the line fire fighter might be a robot and certainly we can imagine a bulldozer being operated by remote and even without remote if you consider that cars are already able to get around without driver control.
So I had mentioned something about underground cities and even the idea there are miles of tunnels underground perhaps to make connections and so forth. When working for Union Carbide in their Uranium mines in the 70’s we were driving drifts that were 15 foot to the back. To drill the back holes on a round I was having to climb a ladder and balance the jack leg as I went up and also apply air pressure on an extra long leg to lift the drill machine. It sounds tricky but if you are good at handling a jack leg it is like a pilot that has been at it a long while–things come automatic that would initially seem difficult. Those were tall and wide drifts (tunnels and back is the top of the tunnel). They had to be since they were using big diesel powered machinery.
But in another location was an actual mole machine that was carving out a tunnel that was of the same dimensions as what we were doing. That thing was actually outdoing us miners except that there were occasions when it would break down and be out of action for some weeks, then wour footage would match it. But that was technology of the 70’s and I have to believe by now they have perfected that animal to where it does not break down like it did in those days–and I can imagine there is even better technology since the ability to produce diamond has also evolved. Those machines had carbide –which is the hardness of ruby or on the hardness scale of 9 where diamond will cut through so much easier. Most rock is a silicate –quartz at about 7.5 and some of the feldspar’s at 6 and stuff like coal and mica can be soft enough to cut with hard steel. So with the billions spent perfecting these things you can imagine how efficient they would be by now.
So what will Trump types to do make up for that 50% job loss which has to be progressive as technology evolves? Maybe building more iron curtains and bombs? Lets see, 50 million lives were killed in World War 2, 16 million in WW1, 3 million during the Korean conflict, 1.5 million during the Civil War, a couple hundred thousand in Vietnam and so on. But with our new technology an all out war can make the war to end all wars (WW1) together with WW2 add all wars including the Civil War look like a walk in the park. And strangely we actually have spent above a trillion dollars on producing the war materials and technology that can easily turn civilization into extinction–something the dinosaurs met with only a bad meteorite explosion.
And a trillion dollars on this war technology and we see more than half the world in starvation and without any of the amenities most of us enjoy. If I were an alien looking in on human kind I wonder if I would want to have any kind of dealings with this barbaric world–and considering that this earth has only been around some 4 billion years while the Universe is 14 billion years old–there certainly has to be smarter beings way beyond our intelligence and they are hopefully peaceful types.
Maybe they have been looking in–since 1947 at Roswell and not long after the atom bomb was exploded 7-16-1945–these saucer and UFO sightings have started in bunches–It is said 70% of Americans believe there are UFO’s from outer space that visit or have in times past been here. Even the Catholic Church now says there must be intelligent life out there somewhere. They have one hell of an observatory on top of Mt Graham out of Safford, Arizona and have had observatories in many places for a very long time. Maybe the Pope thinks he will see Jesus coming in on a space craft?
So I did see that famous Nuclear Physicist Friedman hold up some pages from CIA documents on the UFO issue. Of 154 documents he says there are only two or three words per page with the rest blacked out. This UFO stuff the CIA keeps is very much redacted, maybe even more than the FS documents.
It makes us wonder why so much is hidden from the public–do we all look like a pack of dummies while these people work off our tax money. Even Trump gets paid by our tax money and he redacts hell out of things. Maybe we are after all–I watched some of the World Series and I don’t even have a bet on it. I think it was Houston against Minnesota–but I was not paying attention as to who won–fell asleep somewhere in the middle.
I would like to see Joy get some of those UFO FOIA’s and see if she can read through the black–maybe there is something to them–I always thought those photos were the Feds spending some of those black ops billions on new technology to make America Great Again. Maybe she will post some of those UFO photos on her blog–I can tell you they are real photos and I was there. I can imagine more than a few will go there to view them–and are those green lasers a factor in causing wild fires? Maybe someone that looks at them can tell us.
Happy trails and safe fire fighting–if that is possible.
That 28 billion figure of 96 was minuscule to the new figure of 13 trillion tax dollars unaccounted for in black market uses. Nasa gets a big chunk of that money and you can bet it is put to use in ways some tax payers would object to. However you can also know that it has developed some very unique technology–and highly secret under the National Security cloak. No doubt some of it is very useful–and some is directed at some highly technical war designs as well as methods to control masses of people–domestic and foreign.
With all the secrecy and the trillions used on secret projects, it is no wonder that so many conspiracy theories evolve. Some even believe there are projects on the moon and Mars that we know nothing about. At least a dozen astronauts including many of the Russian variety say they have had alien craft follow them during their flights and considering the impeccable reputations of these men. For instance Buzz Aldrin said we were not the first to visit the moon, that he saw bases there and photographed a foot print that NASA has. Nasa said that he had a nervous breakdown and this was their reason to deny his report.
Dr. Edgar Mitchell after his visit to the moon stated that UFO had visited in our past and are real. You wonder how a man of his reputation would risk that by stating this if he did not have grounds for his statements. Buzz Aldrin said a UFO craft followed him around the moon –something he photographed and were given to NASA officials. Gordon Cooper reported seeing UFO’s not only in flights when he managed a flight situation in Germany during the 70’s but also when he was on space missions. Scott Carpenter said there was constant surveillance by UFO’s on his mission to the moon. Lt Col. Duynne Arnesson, USAF said a UFO hovered near missle silos and nuclear missiles were deactivated. In fact, Captain Robert Salas, USAF said there was a bright red glowing object right outside the front gate–we lost 6-8 nuclear weapons –the other base lost all ten of their weapons. General Nathan Twiney, head of Air Force Materials Command said UFO’s are real, not visonary or imaginary. Aage Nost, commercial pilot with 10,000 hours of flight time has witnessed them and says just about any commercial pilot with long time experience –if you talk confidentially with them–will tell you they have seen UFO’s. The phenomenon has been photographed by the Mexican Military using the latest technology following their craft. Their infared cameras and radar picking up 11 following their mission –radar and infared screens showing the craft yet to the naked eye invisible. The Mexicans released those photos publicly. Lt. Col. Corso, former Army chief of Arms Research Development and former staff member of Eisenhowers National Security Command said the Roswell incident was a crashed alien craft and he oversaw the distribution leaks to industry from the reverse engineering to industry including fiber optics, partial beam devices and laser beam devices
The list is so long that it would take a book to list all the reputable people that believe in these things and report first hand accounts on the situation. It challenges the mind since we have the mind set developed that anyone believing in flying saucers is a bit flakey. Yet I would not call those men that were flying to the moon as flakes, not hundreds of pilots and others with high reputations as flakes.
I have always had my doubts about UFO sightings yet when I saw that documents on UFO reports that CIA handles–(and they only handle solid sightings by such individuals of reputation such as Gordon Cooper, etc).– and I saw that scientist Friedman has the FOIA documents of 154 incidents with all pages blackened out except a few word per page, then I wonder what is under those redactions. It is even more than the FS investigations–what are they trying to hide from the public under National Security ploys? We can see that government loves redactions–what the public does not know and they do will not tell.
I have seen a few things in my 75 years that have no explanation–what we saw at Yarnell did have an explanation, yet the truth was denied at the expense of the loved ones and future wild land fire fighter lives and the tax payer, who by the way was relieved of paying the loved ones a decent settlement, yet in the long run will pay with no changes in the system.
These are my own observations and opinions–I am off to a hike and hopefully the UFO’s are not reading IM–seems they want secrecy as well.
So are these people we would make light of their statements? I hardly think so and they are a small list of
So to update the black ops figure it is in the trillions now–some experts say it is at the 13 trillion mark–so flying saucers are real for certain–both the alien kind and the secretly produced kind–only there are photos and demonstrations by the USAF of their versions.
Whew with that kind of money going into top secret military and security situations you have to know there is technology we have no idea about.
One thing for sure they are using some of that cash to muddy up the skies–yesterday I hiked and photographed the so called con trails but since it was a long hike of at least 12 miles–6 out and 6 back, and I am slow but old–those con trails had turned into fake clouds. It may have had something to do with weather since it started to look like a rain situation near dark and today we did get some showers near and some sprinkles here. So maybe they are putting out something to attract moisture? Either way, I would not advise drinking the rain water unless you are out on the desert and it is the last resort.
I did see that the NY times is talking about Phoenix–not so much daytime temperatures but the night time temperatures there and how something like 150, mostly elderly end up dead from heat stroke. They shut off their air conditioners or else the electric company does and that is the main problem other than street people that fry their eggs on the pavement there.
Not my favorite place to live–I have had too many close calls with heat and you do not need to push your luck if you like the outdoors.
I haven’t heard how Yarnell looks as far as regrowth since 2013 but the million spent on the parking lot would have been better spent bulldozing a fire line around that town and preparing for the next fire. The weather is not apt to change except for the worse concerning
drought. And you can expect that Arizona will be footing another 7 million dollar burn–if that figure was right on the Yarnell Fire incident. Oh well, who ever expected the politicos to do much but put on a show–and that they did.
Happy trails–and good fire insurance business for Yarnellites.
And so how do you think ex vice president Biden’s son got all his business advantages in the Ukraine? Whew it is great to be a politician–especially one high up and great also if you happen to be a relative or good friend of the cause. So Trump the wise politico caught the Biden’s with their hand in the tax payer cookie jar. So Biden turns out to be the victim? No, they all do the same and you can bet Biden if elected would have made sure the Ukraine got that money if Trump did not and you can see Trump was angry at the Ukraine since he knew that Biden had them on the line. So Trump said no money if you don’t expose the Biden influence. Ha, what a charade this all is.
Throw them all out and find someone that is not affiliated with anyone but the American Public. It will be hard to do–the money flow is too big and people as they say all have a price. Maybe that is true and maybe not so true with a few. Hopefully there will be some honesty and someone that will be a righteous leader–but best forget it–chances are slim and none–grow your garden, stay out of debt so you don’t make the usurers fatter and you skinny. Live and let the bastards live unless they threaten your life and then try to only wound them so the psychiatrist can use them to experiment with–you know drive needles into their brains to mix up the lobes to see how to make men docile. But do not be too serious in your own tracks–it can shorten life with a harsh look all the time.
No I won’t vote but god not for Trump or Biden. And the fire ants have drones in my garden.
Hey Sonny…better the fire ants 🐜 than a 👩🏼🚒 Firefighter with a drone in your garden
Just saying…
Just watch out for the fire ants 🔥 that wear bandanas …
They are not bandits.
I meant bandants
Auto correction
It was a pun on bandits though
Well some might think no, the technology makes the new Caddy worth more–but technology has also made the process of creating the new plastic versions much cheaper to build. It cost much more to build a car in the 50’s than it does today with all the robotics and the less need to pay labor. So that knocks that arguement out and also–I would not trade my 1986 Nissan for a newer version–It has a carb, 4×4, AC, heater, and even tilt steering which I occasionally use. The damn thing has new tires as well and sets up so I clear some big rocks. Well it even gets 25 mpg while my modern all electronic chevy two wheel drive only gets about 17. What happened with all that computer tech that they can’t do better? Even the brand new chevy PU can only expect about 17–shit.
And I am going to get rid of a lot of junk on that 4×4–put a Weber on it and weld hinges on the hood so I can lift the whole front end up to work on the motor without all these fenders in the way. KISS–why complicate life and these engineers that you have today are generally in the idiot classes–you know I don’t need a vehicle made so I have to tear up my hands to get to a bolt or work on my vehicle–;yet these damned things are built so you need to have a childs hands to get to some of the crap they hide.
Well to my way of thinking–but Trump would say–the American way–keep us Great by selling us crap that needs replacing every 5 years–after all who wants to work on his own shit and there is profit to be made in the cycling of shit. If Hitler had one good point it was in making the folks wagon–something the common folk could use, fix and made economical sense and part fit from one year to the next. But we are brain washed by propaganda (ads) to make us believe that we need to be very different and have one up on someone–and it winds up we are one up on ourselves instead. But to each his own–My Mom actually bought one of those Silver Streak British things at 125 grand–the gas tank was leaking by the time we got from Tucson to El Paso and had to be replaced. Ha they are head turners–another reason I would not want one of the damn things and they do not ride any better than a 86 Nissan sport car. So save your dough and don’t feel bad cause you ain’t got one. They pollute more too–I think the mileage was only 10 or 12. Or better yet get one of those DeLorean’s–they are fast and efficient but not suitable for off road.
And just think my son and daughter both have Land Rovers? Where did I go wrong?
Joy–I went to your site–some difficult for me to navigate but that is likely not your fault. It has to be simple for me since I was trained on a slide rule and have had to adjust my brain to the more complex ways of life–difficult and maybe some of that lead has migrated to my brain as well. Sometimes when I shake my head I think I hear my brain rattle–it is said they shrink in old age–but then since most of us use only 10% it does not seem to matter a lot.
But no wonder the dense ones–even the smart sneaks–do not want to be interrogated by you. If people have not seen your phone interrogation they should take the trouble to go to your site and see what you did there. And certainly the FS does not want your presence on a hay ride—though they likely will provide you with one where you are the only occupant.
No I can see they are not interested in facts–only learning–but how do you learn without facts? Apparently the FS people feel they are not necessary –what is necessary is how to present, redact, provide false information (political polite word is disinformation not lies) and have a good smile and demeanor. It would help to wear a clown suit while presenting on one of those rides.
Anyway, well worth the visit, great work and valuable exposition–KISS why I like IM–go there, easy locate the talk and articles by JD–and be done with it.
Still you do a nice job and most are not as dense as I am nor as simple.
So I was watching the Mexican news-My TV speaks little English–22 Stations mostly out of Juarez and four dull and overly ad infested channels of the American Variety out of El Paso. I get to see the blood and gore of Mexican life–wouldn’t be good for kids maybe, and even that there are at a minimum of 12 wild fires in Baja California–that state below California in Mexico–It was showing Tijuana getting some wildfire action and houses getting burn and at the same time telling people not to burn trash? Ha what a time to warn people–but better than never –Yarnell repeat in Mexico?
Get your generator –maybe at least a flash light if you live in California with the price of electric due to sky rocket –there is plenty of revamping to do they now know. Those power lines are a big factor in starting wild fires? Any excuse to charge more? I don’t know but I suppose sparks could do it but if you leave a bottle on the ground or even a plastic one and the sun shines through it just right it also will cause a fire kind of like a magnifying glass by concentrating the sun rays. I wonder if fire flies are a danger–glow worms too–but I know damn well arsonists and careless people are the worst cause of wild fires. So is that what the hay rides are about-no facts, just talk and learning each each others names and what is happening in the celebrity world of wild land heroes?
WE CAN’T HANDLE THE FACTS–Attitude I observed from Joy’s interrogation by her subject under the light:
Fictional synopsis of Joy’s interview by Tex Gilligan–Joy paid for this ad with blood, sweat and tears.
Joy –I would like to do the Hay (Staff) Ride since I could contribute some facts being an observer that day and a long time study of the Yarnell Incident.
Subject: We don’t want the facts–We already have our minds made up.
Joy–But I saw things and photographed them, even walked the very path of the GMHS crew and had taken some 1500 photos that day and have interviewed so many people involved.
Subject– What the public doesn’t know we are not going to tell.
Joy–But I have been on other Hay (Stiff and Staff) rides and had no problem getting accepted.
Subject–Please quit boring us with the facts. You must fill out a form for application to this hay ride but it is a waste of your time–this ride is for special people only.
Joy–But I am a certified Wild Land Fire Fighter and in route to being a Wild Land Fire Investigator.
Subject under his breath–doesn’t this gal get it-We don’t want any investigative types snooping around.
Subject to Joy–Well just fill out a form and send it in. We will consider it. (File it under section 13T-the trash bucket)
Is that a fair interpretation of fiction/ fact or what?–You decide after reading the real phone conversation. I woke up late, but Joy–how patient you be–It can’t be fun getting the “run around”. And they don’t know what they are missing by excluding you–or maybe they really do.
I’m really struggling with the current fast and my surroundings and in the waiting room at Simon Med about to do my scan. It’s at 2pm.
Crazy but true what you recapped. That was months ago so it took me awhile to get the content.
If you hear on YouTube the actual conversation it was better to hear the tones.
It’s crazy the journey and when people say they can go through foias with me I better have them sign a liability and contract in the future that they cannot bail when they get stuff that scares them or find information that they feel unsafe to their lives. This is a very serious journey and it takes people that get the whole package and not playing devil’s advocate or playing both sides or more than two sides or a family’s advocates because this is beyond any warfare once you begin digging outside reading stuff on Google or here….when I see a serious person I will know it…they will drop their own life to do this because that is what it takes not taking any income in doing it.
That MRI stuff is not for me.
It was 30 minutes for one and forty on the other and the other was detailed focus to chest versus the general body one but why do they call it whole body MRIs when it really focuses to just the organs not so much limbs eh…
The contrast I have been reacting since and when you google it Sonny…Reading Chuck Norris and his wife’s dealings…I hope it fades the side effects…
Anyways..back and away from medical stuff until tomorrow and Monday…The drive is nuts…remember Peyman in Surprise…I see him soon because since the 10th I regained limb feelings and that has been new journey and he will run tests on that for me.
I am unsure if I get will get on my pc to do emails…just resting until my morning appt. not asleep just lay here thinking holy cow I am finally addressing all the head to toe areas because I need to assess how I plan to go forward on schooling
Night
Something I learned from Joy is that these learning sessions the Wild Land Fire Intellectuals dish out cost a bundle. It sounds like you better be well healed or else have connections to advance in that trade.
I was listening to an address the nation thing by the Mexican President Andres Obredor to his citizens. Of course, like all political hacks he is promising great things–increase in gas and oil production by 20%, no oil fracking, air port improvements, land allocations, help for the disabled and poor, etc.
But the one thing he said that stood out was that Education is a right not a priveledge–he was out to insure the poor along with the rich would be offered free education. In Europe that is mostly so but in America it has become another racket enriching people and placing those smart enough and willing to go on to higher education in debt so that they become slaves to debt simply for something that in this country ought to be a right not a privilege.
How is it that a third world nation such as Mexico sees education correctly. But here in the states if you can’t put a dollar sign on and profits to some organization then it can’t happen. We rather put people in student debt and in many instances for the rest of their lives simply because they wanted to advance their mental capabilities. Yet there is several trillion dollars used in black opts projects that can not even be accounted for–building seven coming down destroyed much of those records that some claim would have put some very high officials away for very long sentences.
Corruption has infested this nation so badly that even our educational system and if you don’t have a Bush type recommendation forget places like Harvard or Yale. And even if you get in on the minority ticket expect to pay about 50 grand for a semesters tuition. That means for a four year bat hide there you will need $400,000 just for tuition alone not even considering the cost of books and living. This leaves out the bright kid that can not afford that enormous amount and if he goes into debt with student loans he will be a slave to debt the rest of his life. So yes it is a damn racket cheating the common citizen and an education system monopolized by such families as the Bush, Trump, Rokefeller, Arabian Billion air crowd and so on.
But a public thing like fire fighting costing the person wanting to advance is a shame and has set itself up for a good ole boy organization again based on cronyism that we see in that organization and not on good old American ideals of equality for all and the basic idea of pursuit of happiness and fulfillment of abilities and good intentions.
In researching and understanding the ease that money is kited around and hidden in “National Defense Security Operations” so that no one is able to look into secret expenditures–even Congressmen and Presidents can not where the security ratings are as high as 38–then trillions are missing and can not be traced, I do believe there are as the wise Dr. Steven Greer points out–technologies already known and usable yet hidden from public because this is an oil based technology keeping certain elite families and individuals in power and in strict control of the masses with hopes of even amalgamating the countries even more into as the Bush’s say the New World Order.
Yet if they are hiding technologies that would provide free energy and relieve the planet of major polluting factors as they have been hiding the rape of the tax payer to the tune of trillions of dollars to produce their zero point energies and zero gravity machines then they indeed have fear of exposure much as the culprits at Yarnell that dump retardant and make up false presentations of the deaths of 19 young heroes. In general the American Public is a nice public but when they understand how they have been screwed over and are being screwed over they can get downright nasty and will demand justice.
These are my own opinions and estimations of truth and I realize the brain washing the main public has suffered–when knowledge is withheld, facts distorted into half truths and outright lies, and catastrophes downplayed while undeserved awards are handed out and at the same time toxins dumped and made to appear as valiant efforts of the fire fighting gods then it is time to take scrutiny of what is real and what is fiction. House cleaning must happen when the house begins to clutter and stink.
Happy trails.
“House cleaning must happen when the house begins to clutter and stink.”
And what better person than a housewife hiker to do just that 😉
Please take some time to remember today, October 26th, was the 2006 Esperanza Fire anniversary of the USFS San Bernardino NF Engine Crew fatalities
( https://wildfiretoday.com/documents/Esperanza_Fire_OIG_Report.pdf ) Oddly enough, the alleged SAIT “Factual” Report (Exhibit 2) link on page 3 goes nowhere with this gem: ” Nothing to see here. ”
“The SAIT Factual Report (Exhibit 2), dated May 22, 2007, is a comprehensive report of the SAIT’s findings. The report was provided to the Chief of the Forest Service and the Director of CAL Fire.”
You can always GTS Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center Esperanza Fire Entrapment Fatalities (2006) and go to their site for numerous (ten) links.
The decision to engage in structure protection needs to be based on available facts, not emotion.
Here is a primary Colorado Firecamp link to the October 26, 2006, Esperanza Fire links containing the several key documents of the SAIT-SAIR.
( https://www.coloradofirecamp.com/esperanza/timeline.htm )
In addition, GTS the following document from four of the surviving BDF Engine Captains countering many of the findings in the Esperanza Fire SAIT-SAIR.
It should show up in your GTS search as the “Peer Review of the: Esperanza Fire Accident Investigation”
ESPERANZA FACTUAL REPORT ANALYSIS
September 10, 2007
The participants of this Factual Report Analysis are:
Richard Gearhart – Captain 51
Chris Fogle – Captain 52
Anna Dinkel – Captain 54
Freddie Espinoza – Captain 56
“All of the participants were present on the morning of October 26th, 2006 as module leaders of their respective Type III Engine Companies from the San Jacinto Ranger District, San Bernardino National Forest and were assigned to the Twin Pines area to assist the Structure Protection Group Supervisor and Branch II with structure protection and the evacuation of the residents during the Esperanza Fire.
“This analysis consists of 7 Exhibits and relates directly to the Esperanza Factual Report prepared by the interagency Serious Accident Investigation Team (SAIT).”
RTS-It would seem that structures unless occupied would be the absolute last thing on the list to protect by the wild land fire fighter. Consider their equipment–a homeowner is better equipped with a water hose than a wild land fire fighter with a Pulaski and maybe a 5 gallon water pack. He would be better off pissing on the fire than fighting it with his limited equipment. There is something wrong with the system’s needless risking young men to save structures when even structure type firemen take plenty precautions dealing with structures. I know Chief David of the Dolan Springs fire department explained to me that the reason I never saw structures saved around that area was because they were generally too dangerous to involve and needed only to be watched to perhaps save any adjoining structures.
In the case of Yarnell people that had insurance came out with new homes–those that did not also were provided new homes and in some cases trash homes were replaced with decent living quarters. So some had an advantage to have the old burned away.
In a way Yarnell was a sad situation concerning structures. The millions spent fighting that fire could have been avoided by providing a buffer zone about the town and there were plenty of residents there that did not provide themselves with decent defensible space. If you live in a dangerous area then you should know you better keep plenty of defensible space such as was provided for the Boulder Ranch property even though it was some distance from Glen Isla-Yarnell proper.
It was well known that money was available in a government fund to the Yarnell Fire Department before the fire to pay for defensible space since many of the people there either could not afford or were not able to provide it themselves. However for whatever reason the fire department officials at that time did not use the money or engage in defensible space. What sucks is that the FS would have hybrid wild land fire fighters–fairly new at wild land fire fighting and apt to think they needed to prove themselves as structure watchers use the excuse to kill their men by needless action. Willis should have kept that quiet if he was trying to keep up face. From a wild land fire figher view, their leader’s actions of trying to protect structures would have been considered ludicrous had they not been grounds for negligent homicide.
More fire on the horizon-180,ooo evacuated in the San Francisco area and power shut off to a million since it might make sparks and cause more fires. Go West young man–there is gold out there–fire fighting jobs galore, re construction jobs, clean up work, setting up tents and camps and plenty work for the needy. My son and his wife are both nurses, maybe they even ought to go that way–government money will be flowing in big amounts, insurance companies that own half the wealth of the nation will loose some goodly amounts and the world will be aflame with action.
Sad but there is plenty of that in the world except Trump hit a lucky streak and killed Ali Baba and a few of the 40 thieves along with some of their offspring. It ought to help him in his blight that brought on impeachment proceedings–but I doubt it will really have any effect on reality. We killed nearly half a million in the Iraqi war and plenty of civilians everywhere–our killing methods are with kids that are good at war games and need only press a button to wipe out ten or 40 off a circling drone.
So we have done our mayhem as well as that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi if you can even pron0unce his name–Ali Babi is close enough. But he will be quickly replaced with another and all those kids we killed there will be replaced as well and a few of their survivors will hate Americans even more. But what has to be done has to be done to protect America and keep on killing those assholes that keep on killing people that show up on their lands from America. In some ways I can’t blame those crazies–I don’t want them here but if you are going to stop thieir screaming in those Arabian waste lands then you will need to make it a radioactive waste land and wipe it clean of inhabitants. Otherwise the thousands of years and more of wars there will continue –we will never bring peace to those lands–and we have plenty to deal with on our own turf. So yes Trump, do leave those war lords to their wars–and as far as I can tell this guy just wants Americans out of Syria and all oil and desert waste lands of the Arabian countries.
Is there to be a commendation to Trump. I should think the men did well following orders of the Commander in Chief to have gone and returned without a bunch of helicopter crashes as past Commander in Chief’s had on such escapades. And thankfully those brave soldiers were returned mostly with minor injuries.
Now I wonder if Trump will get the idea that we need to start weening ourselves from oil and providing alternative energy–even the Saudi’s are smart enough to be going that way as much as they hate Americans and the invasions and appropriations of oil we have done in those countries. It is all about oil and profits and will continue to be –right now Trump being a business man does not see much profit in Solar and alternative energy. After all once you put up a solar panel it is good for 20 or more years before the efficiency is down to 80% or so. Not much future and continuing profit there and just think you can fill an electric car up for negligible cost during those 20 years–no profit there either. God that is a business man’s nightmare and no vehicle pollution or noise except the teen age rap crap will be heard easier.
Maybe even the jets will have no excuse to say they have con trails when we know they are chem trails but then do they have technology for electric powered jets?
The wind is blowing here at about 25mph. California, I hope the predicted winds of 90 on national media is just what Trump calls false news. I had no trouble getting a mesquite fire going–my chimney was sucking air and I did not need to blow on the embers to get things started–that extra oxygen moves a fire quickly as the structure wild land fire fighter knows. Stay out of the danger zones-the structures are not worth lives.
Sonny:
this is my third attempt to post today.
The electricity pops off then boots me off then I lose it all but this time I copy and paste and saved as I re-built the post.
You know me a long time, Sonny – you know I always keep in touch with you – yet lately has been very odd that I cannot even begin to share the types of FOIAs or public records I have pulled or awaiting or the setups of ill intent harm that has been happening since DC- I can state the past few months could be turned into a movie for sure- especially how I was treated in recent weeks in certain sections of Arizona- it is horrible. 100 times worse than any moment we had on an off time.
I have not heard back from Weather Channel but I did spend time with Donut on the 28th and I sure learned a lot in our time spent together … I thank Donut for giving me that blessing and I truly understand why God is doing so much but I just want some down time to feel like me again… Some day I will share a post on Donut but I am not even allowed on the Wix until I get cleared-
I am ready to sit down with you, Musser if you are wanting that this Fall 2019 or Paul Morin….
I also am in a Wildland Firefighting Human Factors and Safety mentoring program and I signed a confidentiality paper and I honor that yet I can say this much I was paired to one of the most important pieces and that has helped me understand the whole enchilada and even helped me get Gary too. I want to thank you Gary for you always had a tough public position in this but thank you for remaining an staying the course- I get it. I also learned what it means to be “hostage” to an industry- and as well more empathy to certain areas those first 72 hours after the fire-
I wish I could sit by a campfire with you and enjoy the moonlit stars, Sonny-
shoot the shit-
maybe have one of your hot toddies or two or three at this point in life yet
God has a firm grip on me all along external areas got their dark tries on me too….
I am trying to get into my emails-
the very first one I saw was this:
“Flickr regarding Eric Marsh … I am grateful for the people, like yourself, who have shared your knowledge and very impressive tech talents. In you, God obviously put the task on the right woman. The information you have acquired and put together is, well, for lack of a broader vocabulary, awesome. Thank you.”
To answer you (KJ) from your Friday, October 18, 2019 11:32 AM –
I am unable to access to any sites currently not even the blog-
some areas are under formal investigation still
I plan to call today to ask “what’s up” … to the people working on it.
On the woman and her name you mentioned- this is a “pause” phase for me for technology areas so I am just logging on today and I have to attend my class stuff first of the incoming emails
( I am in Investigation Training phase and I am trying to focus just to that ) – I have been highly compromised – yet I smirked when I saw the name – boy, you seem to get what it is like for me when I saw that name. Her story matters!
I do not want to further that name quite yet. There are though hundreds of names who can help.
If any of you feel like leaking crucial stuff then I would for the first time in this, state: call me, so I can reroute you to HOW because my areas are compromised-
Recently I was to be in Women In Fire Program – my health and some “heads up” paused that ( I have been so drained ( beyond drained ) from all the meds they placed me on ) but I did meet by God’s path ??? ( I thought at that moment but looking back who knows if it was a setup or not ) one of the Instructors in a whole other way outside the program when I went to do a RX Burn analysis in New Mexico recently-
So she ends up in my space area and if you know me I don’t give up a sleeping area/my space especially when ill or tired and take the floor yet I truly thought God placed her there to be of solid encouragement based on what a certain “other” person assured me of during my recovery phase on so many levels yet she got to see some of the warfare and tiny wee bit of the crucial data and pending odd areas of “MDMM” that I am fact checking and JCH named me her soul sister
yet one of her Sedona/Cottonwood area friends spoke to her in which I to this date to my life never felt a betrayal as I felt as she said she told her friend this and that I spoke to her in confidentiality ( we even sported bandannas in the middle of nowhere by her choice and she wanted to speak that way but here I am with no facial coverage sharing here on IM- yep, no bandanna ) so how is it she freely shared out the stuff?
I will not engage in the whispering winds world … no way … I am too old for it especially when the incoming data did not fill in any swiss cheese holes or gaps just pure against the mission and not even really want to engage just speak their peace and go – I felt the disconnect the day before so it was no shock to me- I even washed the sheets because I already knew …
so if you want to pop in my life such way I am all for you cutting out like you have but of all people when I saw this lady – I saw me when I was young ( that is how she was able to get that near to my space plus I had no choice because she was guest to another (not my place or home and at the end of my designated time to be in area) and I wanted to pass on the social moment indeed
( due to my lack of spunk ) but the other said let it happen even though I was not up for having in home company vs out visiting at some place to eat or something )… I also saw like you see at some fraternities like P i S i g m a … “Serve the People” … something very conceptually captivating caught my attention and that was why she was able to be in my spots and space – there, on our hike, I saw on her body something I saw early on in a meditation state… I was able to see she understands the “celeb” and “govt” world like me …
she “knew” the “how many are leading the “coach and modelling” ways that are wrong” … it needs HELP! Some of her own family (K) run with my old crowd in the celeb world. I would love to have spent time with her mom and K, Z, J, C, E/L but I just was floored how she can ask to do bandannas in the middle of nowhere yet spew our confidential talk so freely so quickly…it was a sour taste left…it took a moment to just let go and let God and leave it as that’s her path
the funny part ( or reality – serious part ) is God is in control so when she had to all of a sudden cut the trip short but hang with someone I led her to days before- I just made the walk away that “MTW” was meant to bridged to her and I was the messenger for that and as well I do feel our talk on 10 and 18 hopefully helped her for her future in American Leadership.
I know “MTW” has helped me and I soon go for tests to confirm that I am Bilateral Neuropathy Free since October 10th an 11th, 2019 and still on path to Divine healings.
I will privately share his name to others in person only and each person to this date that I did show him – they have seen immediate health healing results as well. I have not felt my legs fully since 1991 so it is a weird ass time to now feel (when ill) and as well I feel my jaw chewing; I feel that too. I truly think there is something to his “lightning strike” moments that may have something to do why and hows … I know I have spent my time helping as well in his healing with much prayers and I hope you all add him to your time of prayer too-
Then there is a massage ladies kid “MDMM” who first tells me one thing about one of my team that was just so “off” and I fact checked then she told about another one but meanwhile she reaches out and gives us some of the most crucial data ever and does not give clarity or any further and she just dumps in one time all the folks against the truth and I fact checked so many but when she spoke about my grandfathers the way she did I just shut off because the bullshit I got there was off the chart rubbish – it then jeopardized the whole entire mission. Then the funny part was she was not taking any of my messages but she told a team player that Jesus does not want her working on the mission anymore due to safety reasons.” ( cough, cough … bullshit ) (she lays out THAT KIND OF HEAVIES and drops out ???) ( God is all powerful and He shields and protects … that is the facts … how do you think I have got this far especially when I know some know I know what I know … God protects! )
Yet she invites us all to pray and after she gave us the information (serious leak) she felt our best possibility for the mission was to pass this off to the proper lawyers or such … Jesus is fine with her helping outside that but not on the mission ??? and as well not for me either but my mom is ok to be around just not me… what kind of crap is that … Jesus and God are L O V E … so this whole bullshit I just shake it off and think “oh okayyyyyyy” … whatever. I do not want a person near unless they want to be there so it is totally fine by me.
God governs all things even though Government seems to think they have a role in this Earthly time … just because I am seeing and learning that evil does exist ( boy does it when you try to put truth to the front ) the facts are God has chosen to allow and time does not lessen the evils …
When I see the people I allow in – okay to allow the system to keep rolling as it is – and they cannot even as a Hotshot name off the 10 and 18 ??? not even the one I call out …. hmmm … NIFC or NWCG- can we work together and let me rebuild the video on that? The flash cards with the guy stripping on you tube when you search 10 and 18 is not working out.
I am researching out old friends and associates because I want to redo some of the current training methods
and so I will be taking some courses that was not planned but I now feel after meeting JCH because she has the natural attributes of a leader yet the part to get spooked off because she told confidentiality information to a friend who said stay away permanently because her friend lives near the heart of so many who were in that Yarnell Hill Fire and that friend does not comprehend there is a much bigger message outside June 30, 2013 between 4-5PM Arizona time and that is the message we want to make sure comes to the front as well… and then some … and once it is out – there is no turning back so I have to ensure it is done just right.
The devil exists … I have learned when I have been recovering I am not me lately and I have to keep praying and breathing and asking the Holy Trinity to cover us all with Blessings and to get stronger and defeat all challenges including the Devil and I need to grab that Bible and use His Words more intensely to rebuke the devil because it has been a true nightmare since Washington DC but I am trying… I stay away from the fluff of Sedona yet there is a place one of my family member has always enjoyed going that focuses on your chakra and aura and mine have consistently stayed in the white, yellow and forest green hues so if you are in that type of stuff then let me know what it means because I do not want to be learning that area yet would not mind skimming what it comes down to in meaning and my friend was Indigo Turquoise- so drop me an email if you know how to define it- I was not going to pay for that kind of stuff but I did get to see the hues but have no clue what it means and not dropping a buck or many to learn either-
Anyways to the two ladies who recently felt they both had to share individually to me they were my soul sisters and the one was caught in changing the course of reality a few weeks back and the other had seen something sad and really to answer that second person – the people I am bringing the T R U T H out with – there is layers of toxicity as you named it but there has been more blessings than bad moments. We are dealing with something very serious. Also remember those times of bad has happened when I am ill or tired so I have to learn the tools that at all times even if sick or tired that I can resist the evil and the demands and focus more to Faith an God .
Oh Gary- remember you said Meryl Streep should play me- have you watched the recent the Laundromat- she did do some key-point words in that film that I think you will be like smiling…
and ladies- God may have you “pause” and that’s fine but shit I am okay with you both- you came in my space during a very drawn out weary phase- you know most humans have days off or fun- where are mine?… my focus is God and most would only take this task if it meant a story or Victory and I do it due to obedience to Him and remember this take away that there is nothing necessarily righteous in this all…the going down in a blaze or the near miss or the suicide attempts or the hail of bullets or the ones who got burned in that fire…and I remember one of the widows say he died in his boots doing what he loved and for so long I did not want to dig into my story of us being on the Weavers because I felt the loved ones would misjudge or not comprehend what needed to happen but I am on that path and no I am not going to give it to some lawyer or another to muddle it up or hide it more- no way!
Forensic Fire Weather is the future.
I am still honoring one of you soon ( dinner event ) on that same time you know about and if you show- great and if not- still a moment of honoring you. I am not stopping God’s plan based on my emotions of not getting how I am in recovery phase and what unfolded.
Make sure you know we have to criticize and point out their idiotic and evil policies!
I do it seasoned with Grace.
I have to Glorify God and meanwhile I know the devil hates it and is trying every way to use me and people around to cause the disconnect but I will stay firm. Remember to keep your humor right by the Truth and hold on to that no matter what because the devil will try to make you look foolish or even spooked when things are getting too close to His Glory-
Stay a Gospel-centered Believer!
Attitude is everything and realize we all have our down times and if you see someone not feeling well – don’t just bail on them because you feel a certain way or some message came to you to “get out” – God is Love.
This a courageous journey, right Sonny-
any links to your UK Documentary?
I better get back to my training course stuff.
I just wanted you to know I have not been online they said since the 9th on site but I did pop on to do my mentor program stuff and get back off last week but yeah been staying away from technology even got rid of so much of it and nice to not have that cell- yet miss hearing about the dogs.
heading to emails now-
if you emailed and I did not reply … there was close to 70 and my school stuff is first then if time the other but I will try again later in the week to get on- just wanted Sonny to know I will email him for the next 30 minutes if you are there we can catch up-
Nothing there about the documentary or what will be done there Joy–Channel 5, Brighton, England–the producer said it would go to five channels in England so would be seen everywhere–It is about pets and likely a humorous but true documentary of Who done it–Charlie my pooch was only a suspect–you have Scooter and Cowboy and was it a conspiracy? Dogs are smarter than people want to give credit and maybe this will be slanted that way. So no, I have not inquired about when it would be aired–I do think it should be entertaining and likely I will be the clown. That won’t be the first or last–sometimes you are when you ain’t.
Nothing makes sense except maybe the Irish Gods and Goddesses and even they are sometimes suspect. About the only thing you can count on are your fingers if you have any left when this is all over and if God made little green apples, ok and if he wanted the 19 GMHS somewhere in heaven so he bumped them off then who is going to question God except maybe me. I might get another shotgun blast but if he made that move then he is pretty nasty for a God. Dying isn’t so great–at least the last time I died–but sometimes living ain’t so great either.
We just have to make the best of it as we are handed the day–or maybe the worst if we want so in the final analysis it is what we decide for the day that helps it along, yet certain we can not avoid death–maybe taxes if you are an Eskimo near the north pole. Tax collectors don’t like getting frost bite and even the Vikings could not stand Iceland when a cold wave hit–yet the Inuits managed through it as if it were just another thing in life. On that one Religion killed the Vikings-while the free thinking Inuits survived.
Yes–you will encounter all kinds of problems spreading the truth. Especially when it involves money and the fellows that are the big players. This is a commercial world and everything hinges on profit for the most part. For instance did you see the Democrat hopefuls mention anything about weening us from oil and getting solar and other clean energy technology to the forefront. The trillions they spend (put the taxpayer in the chains of debt) could be well spent on providing clean energy both in homes and transportation and home use for the American people. Let those Arabs enjoy their black oil–we have enough in this country to last forever if we go to Solar, Hydrogen, Wind Power and energy saving devices already available.
New World Order folks will tell you (the 1% that own 90% of the wealth) is that we need a world government–pretty much there already. What they fail to inform you is they believe
their scientists (160 top ones from 160 countries) that say this world is overpopulated and in order for the planet to survive 6 billion people need to disappear off the planet.
There are at least 4 identified underground cities available in the Unites States–I haven’t gotten an invitation to one when the shit hits the fan–have you. Those cities will only hold about 20,000 residents in each–but there may be more secret underground places and I am sure there are. Maybe the Bible has a point of 144,000 chosen to survive the Apocalypse. I have been underground enough in my life that I don’t mind relinquishing my spot to some celebrate and especially if it is a child–and World Bankers, Snoots,stiff collars and hoity toats, etc. would not be my style to start with–I would keep them uncomfortable in a survival situation I am certain.
Science is so advanced–and I have always suspected that anyone visiting from another planet or Galaxy is likely a super computer since the computers we already have are more than a trillion times more intelligent that humans. They will get to the point of being able to replicate themselves –Gods in themselves since they can continue to go on and understand how to live in the worst of conditions–outer space and travel forever. Science fiction on TV is behind the times on what really exists–and right now science is able to put a human head on a bulls body just as we saw in representations of Minotaurs and the like in Ancient drawings.
Darwin was right in some respects except that someone was doing what we are now doing thousands of years ago–and yes whoever wrote the DNA package wrote in adaptive measures. But monkeys did not evolve into man–the DNA is close but someone added some packages just like scientists can do these days.
But horror of horrors–worse than the horror movies. Russian and America have on hand enough poison gas to kill the world 40 times over–they have agreed to destroy it since looking at what it did in WW1–and more recently in Iraq and now Syria. How much they will secretly keep we do not know.
But next we have the designer diseases that can be spread like the aluminum and barium oxices that we see in the skies almost daily. That is real and Joy and I had watched them smoke up an entire valley around Aguila regularly. That fog is not con trails when it settles and makes a clear Valley into a fog zone. That is how they plan to spread the Anthrax, Ebola, and other designer diseases if they need to for war time purposes–a good way to rid the planet of billions if there is a antidote to save those that are chosen. And there are patented antidotes to most of those patented designer diseases.
The latest one is a bit scary. You see the zombie movies–the new patented disease is a mutation of rabies–people become zombies with the brain destroyed except to violence and eating the flesh of another human or even their own. There have already been a few cases of it–one where a man was eating the face of a homeless man in Florida and the only way it was stopped was by a cop shooting the zombie. Welcome to the new world order of things.
I do not know if you have ever seen a rabid animal–I have seen several–I was once charged with a rabid coyote but dispatched him before he got to me with a 12 guage. As a youngster we had to kill a couple dogs with rabies foaming at the mouth and staggering similar to people you see in movies that present zombies. Then I have killed a skunk and a racoon near a lake bot rabid. This stuff is real and I can only imagine how they have mutated the disease to make it worse–yet I hope they also have the antidote.
Lyme disease by the way is named after the town in North Carolina where it started–spread by tics. Twelve miles out from that town was a government lab working on biological diseases–military and restricted. That facility moved soon after the spread of the disease–it was known they were working on being able to spread disease through insects such as tics, mosquitoes, flies, etc. After all to make America Great and keep it great we need to keep up with the latest and most virulent disease for warfare–the Russians have it–so shall we.
So life ought to be interesting–and looking at how people in government are prone to compartmentalize, add cover up and even lie (called disinformation) do not expect to read the daily news unless it is about a gun mass killing or a terrorist attack , some bunch of skin heads trying to do mayhem or an illegal alien that commits some heinous crime. Prison business is booming in America–good commercial money there–even a good thing on the stock market if you play that game.
Not much about the things that JD writes about on the major news–they can’t afford to offend the people that own them –the commercial enterprises–no more than the politicians can afford to offend the same enterprises including big oil and chemical interests. Make America Great Again–Really?
Joy mentions God a lot–and most of our principles come from religious training. In fact my thesis was 175 pages about the Greek interpretations of the Bible with a support of the Scofield Bible as the best version of the Bible. Of course the Old Testament was in Herbrew and not all of the New Testament was Greek with Matthew translated from Aramaic.
I have since that thesis revised much of my own thinking and opinions. Something that did happen when writing the thesis and that I had kept for a time was a page where I had written several paragraphs and the word God came at the beginning of the next line. I was using an old time word processor made in Korea–but the thing took off on its own writing the word God just as this now is at the beginning and then that word processor took off on its own with the word God replicated just below the letter d in a diagonal completely down the page. So I had a page with a couple paragraphs and then a diagonal of the word God for the rest of the page. How that word processor could take off writing by itself was strange enough but that it was only the word God was even stranger and in a perfect diagonal down to the exact bottom of the page. You can imagine–I felt a presence there even though I was alone–maybe something like some do when they feel they are communicating with the other side.
So I do not know what this has to do with life or death but I am certainly convinced there is more than just our physical existence.
I did ask some computer whiz if there was something like an electrical static charge that could cause a word processor to type something out on its own. He did not know if that could happen–but I left off that it had typed that single word. Maybe you have an explanation.
So in the summer of 99 I did drag a 83 pound cross from the Prescott Valley Flea Market past the court house square and up to a little church (Church on the Street) a few blocks up from the court house that fed the homeless and there were always a lot of needy hanging around the courthouse in those days. I was camped on the Hasyampa and the flea market was my week end survival tool between my gold panning and prospecting. One Jeremiah guy and I thought it would be a good idea–but I had planned a skinny cross–he said no that would not do–Christ would have hauled a log along. So we found a log and nailed a cross piece to it then weighed it on a bathroom scale, how I remember the weight and doing the ten miles dragging that thing won’t let you forget.
I was actually hit by a small Toyota pickup coming out a side street past where that Wal Mart Store is about a mile. It threw me into the street and people stopped thinking to call an ambulance but I refused. Needless to say that guy and his wife were quite upset but I was not. They thought I was hurt but the only thing hurt was his pickup fender and I was on a mission that I did complete a bit after dark.
Oddly I received both cheers and insults from people–some thought it was a blasphemous thing to do, others thought it was a great thing–the cross means much to many and its symbol represents positive –yet a few are angered by its vision.
On that mission I was only a quarter mile out from the swap meet when a state cop stopped and was upbraiding me. He was about to write me a ticket and had his book out when a reporter from that Prescott Valley Paper stopped and photographed the scene. That made front page news there in the paper–a scene of a cop writing a ticket to a guy dragging a cross. But as soon as the cop found out he was a reporter he told the reporter he was just making sure I was ok and would be safe. He put the ticket book down but it is in the photo.
So I am not sure what this has to do with wild land fire fighting–maybe nothing–or maybe it can give hope to some that need it. I don’t advise anyone to drag crosses around –that church pastor asked me to remove it from his lawn when I went there after for one of his free meals and so I did and dragged it once more on a ten mile drag along a stretch in Phoenix to a small church that fed the homeless–they kept it and asked me to plant it in front of their church–something I dutifully did after a free meal there on a Sunday.
Ha–I remember dragging past a barber shop and some guy said in a loud voice only in Phoenix do the nuts come out. Another passed me in his vehicle and came back and said the Lord put it on him to give me a $5 bill. I thanked him and donated it for that little church.
So there you have it–not the rest of the story but enough maybe to make you scratch your head.
We know the best thing is the truth–and that will make you free.
With 600 wildfires in California in the past three weeks one had to wonder if this is not some sort of work of an organization or terrorist group. Certainly drought must play a part of this but the fires seem too frequent to be happenstance.
I do see that 50 thousand residents of LA have been evacuated this past week–even the electric companies are shutting off power since they do not want to be blamed for sparks starting wild fires off their power lines. Suits could cut heavily into their profits if they happen to be found responsible for firres?
So wild fire fighting ought to be a secure profession for some time now. So will insurance adjusting and appraisals as well as the construction professions. Medical work will always be a great occupation–so America will continue to be busy and great.
The fires will come back as soon as rains bring back the grass, manzanita and vegetation such as we see at Yarnell. But more drought will bring back the fires again and global warming will continue in its cycle.
You did not see any of the illustrious candidates address such things as substituting solar for oil or in any way attacking the plastic and chemical industries that are continuing to destroy our ocean and land environments. No, they can not afford to take on the lobbyists and backers that provide the millions to their campaigns–how would they get elected in this era of election by your account balance.
And does it after all matter which candidate gets elected? You see that Trump–though he is doing a good thing pulling out of Syria and any war in those Alibaba and 40 thieves countries, Trump still is going to protect the oil. Shit what a sorry president who would support everything against the wanning environment and destruction of the planet–yet at least bring our young men home and let those poor bastards fight it out. We certainly need to quit acting like England had for so many years by being the World Empire and bleeding these countries of all their resources and using their people for cheap slave labor. We have enough of our own slave labor in the prison system–even use them to fight fires and now need more of their free labor with the fires growing and more intense.
Yes even the Russians finally pulled out of Afghanistan–and now they want to take up where we left off in Syria? Good Luck and if that means anything. To my way of thinking even the Devil can do a few good things and sometimes does in order to look good–after all he was the Light Bringer for some time and maybe still does once in a while–and we do see Priests preach a good sermon yet some of them are doing the unthinkable on the side, but lets not lay it only to the Priest hood–some people are Boy Scout Leaders, Protestant Preachers and even Holy Rollers that have been found to be scoundrels preaching the good word and acting like fools. Either the Devil made them do it or else their human nature on the evil side overtook their good appearances and intentions.
So with all the wild fires, problems we have here in this country with pollution issues, social issues and immigration issues just to name a few tacked on–we have our hands full to take care of our own business instead of trying to control the business and affairs of other countries. Our Soldiers belong here and let those Arabs become martyrs in their own lands killing each other–they like death for their cause since it sends them to Allah in a hurry–they don’t have to wait around on earth for their reward whatever that might be Allah might allow. But our western way of thinking is to live out this life without the glory of being a martyr by killing another human if possible–yet we would defend our country and family and friends.
So it is an oil thing with Trump–was with Bush, and with every president for some time since the Rockefeller’s got rich off oil production and the politicians became puppets of the Industrialists, Bankers and other world billion and trillion air individuals. So buckle yourself in for a ride and if you believe one president will be any different than any other to change the direction this country is going– you have a different opinion than my own.
I think about our best bet is change among ourselves and through small media operations that are not under the control of big money that has bought them out. They have certain guide lines and it better not be too informative against big business and just as Trump–they must protect the oil and Chemical, big Pharmaceutical and big Industry–keep people into plastic and debt whatever you do. Did you not see Trump celebrate and put a big billion ton a year plastic company right by the Ohio river–this is what he calls making America Great again–but so would have Hillary I do believe.
So look at the real situation–retardants have killed plenty in Yarnell–they have caused huge dead zones in the Ocean, killed hundreds of thousands of fish and other aquatic life, oil continues to pollute the air with carbon dioxide so that oxygen levels that should be at 22% are down to as low as 5 -10% in some cities and we have an ignorant president who is protecting oil, wanting to spend billions on an iron curtain that could provide billions in pollution free solar, wind, hydrogen, etc–yet people are willing to kill over that clunker. Ignorance in the land and lack of wisdom.
Seven Billion people on earth–15 billion by the end of the century predicted–well minus a few of us-so hopefully the young ones will sprout some smart ones. We could use a few WTKTT’s and Joy’s and Gary’s–RTS, Norbs, Woodsman’s and JD”s and such–without them the planet is in trouble and even with but they might alleviate some.
A GMHS loved one wanted to let you know she was thinking of you.
Her exact words: “If you get a chance please tell Sonny I think he’s amazing!”
I have a few hundred emails to catch up on, Sonny-
today is my only day online.
Few more hours left.
Logging out by 4pm.
It is all fire stuff related emails
It seems I need to now shorten the blog posts and then the Developer will re-look at the situation so have to go back and do that and it is really like I have to do that to move ahead kinda thing so I was not expecting that-
They think there was no compromise of the pages and they feel it is more technical at this stage so …
Your post which still is one of the highest views to my blog, Sonny, I need to break it down into three posts and so if you want I can add your UK stuff in there- just send it- where people can look to see you 1 year later after being shot by your dog.
??????? recap the messages:
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September 1, 2019 9:10 AM (UTC-04:00)
Hi,
Thank you for contacting Wix Support. Your ticket has reached the Support Security Team.
Firstly, please note that Wix takes security related issues very seriously…
Please also provide any relevant information, such as screenshots that had peaked your suspicion.
Awaiting your reply.
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September 3, 2019 9:20 AM (UTC-04:00)
Please note, that we’ve checked our logs and can see that on the 31 August 2019 your blog writer under email: …We aren’t able to restore data from the deleted blog post. In addition, we’ve checked the logs on the possible bruteforce login attempts and were not able to locate any.
Regards,
Charlie
Production QA and Security Teams
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September 4, 2019 4:29 PM (UTC-04:00)
Hello, multiple members of our security team have thoroughly reviewed your account and site just to be sure and we detect no indication of compromise. We can confirm that this is not a security issue (on our side).
Your issue sounds more technical in nature…”
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on to the … -Escalated to Developer Phase-
then ????
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September 13, 2019 5:31 PM (UTC-04:00)
“Hello, This email is to let you know that the issue that you are experiencing is being investigated and you will be contacted as soon as we reach a resolution…”
————————————–
September 16, 2019 10:41 AM (UTC-04:00) and said:
“Hello! Thank you for reporting the problem to us, we have escalated it to the development department.
We will update you once we get any news.
Thank you for your patience and understanding.
Have a nice day!”
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September 23, 2019 9:48 AM (UTC-04:00)
“Hello, We don’t have any updates to share with you just yet regarding this issue. Due to the nature of web development, we cannot provide any estimates or ETAs regarding a possible resolution. As soon as we have any news to share with you regarding this issue we will be sure to reach out.”
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September 30, 2019 8:27 AM (UTC-04:00)
“Hello! Thank you for the additional information.
We regret that it takes so long to resolve this issue.
We will contact you as soon as there are any news.
Thank you for your patience and understanding as we are working on solution.”
——————————————
Wix Support)
October 22, 2019 10:10 AM (UTC-07:00)
The blog…issue is still being looked at by our development team and while we have no updates to share at the current time, we will reach out as soon as we do have new information.
We appreciate your patience.
——————————————————————-
(Wix Support)
October 24, 2019 11:11 AM (UTC-07:00)
Hi, We have investigated this issue…some of the posts in the old blog are too big for the new blog. Currently, we do not have an estimated time to fix for this issue…Have a good day.
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This was the final report??? for my blog ???
That I have to shorten the posts and I will have one of my contributing authors do it if he is willing with his jam packed schedule – otherwise do my best in November to work on it but for me to do it – not easy – not near pc much and I am in training mode until Spring 2020.
an Sonny if you remember in Dec. 2015 after many months of “in person” bullshit I wrote a comment on IM … right then weeks later the “injunction” moment happened then when the judge said he could not restrict me off the Weavers then remember the State did what they did- do you remember all that by the Yarnell library with YCSO and me thinking what a bogus bullshit … such narration but then in recent
B I N G O realization — they knew they can hand me the restricted area and Don Glasgow would do his job about the Ranch properties but we were known to be on the Weavers in its entirety so guess what happened Sonny the first few months in 2016 but the many types of Staff rides ….that was why they figured if they restricted me then you would not go out there except you did with Zack Ashoor and now he is dead…so many are dead Sonny….Do you remember Chas who’s wife was the thin bartender Adria at the legion who had the two pretty little girls (Taco Tuesday the girls came to us) – the biker guy Chas is dead even Eugene Criner who lived near the Helms died this year…even Wickenburg’s fire chief Ed- his dad Earl died not too long ago…remember the lawyer (John Burke) in my neighborhood who would stare you down with your old trucks he died of lung cancer… (JR) Magness was only 50, Sonny…when are these folks gonna wake up …shit Happy Anniversary to a man who should be dead- YOU after all the ex wives and heart attacks and being shot by your dog which was a year ago carrying all that lead with you…God Bless you…we will keep at this…and we also know another book is due out on the Yarnell Hill Fire…let’s get pumped –
and remember one of the GMHS loved ones wanted me on the Staff Ride 2016 and so it makes sense they made that public distraction because I have never been a threat or harm to any – unless you wanted TRUTH hidden
right, Sonny?
also with all the recent behind the scenes bullshit –
please note I still harbor hope that something will come to the front even if some have done their best to ensure it does not-
I use to think and say on IM ” How do they live with themselves? ” but now that I am paired and in contract in areas that I am and know the first week more in depth then I so get it and I am not taking away that comment and question yet I think there truly are good people who were assigned to do a task and were unaware of the depth and scope to what they were assigned to on June 30, 2013 to the week after…but what has happened since is they went on … and maybe when they retire we can “hope” they speak up because we know when I spent time with Donut Sept 28th, 2019 he really felt it was my job to do the rest …really…and with a newborn son and such and the Holdfast Recovery program then maybe it will take the hikers and IM folks to finish it out not him…
Joy I still have the ounce of lead–my blood tests three times the lead level allowable in water which is 5 ppm. I think I might have an alien implant as well–hell something is keeping me alive. I do hear sounds in my ears but the doctor says it is due to the lead–causes tinnitus–but I am accustomed to it enough now–I just have not received any messages from Mars or the beyond–perhaps I will.
But do not be surprised by much of anything–consider that fires, even small office fires are very dangerous–You know Building 7 came down fast even though it was hit by nothing such as the Twin Towers that were hit with airplanes. The government got around to investigating that incident 7 years after it happened–I think because 1700 civil engineers needed to know how it could have happened and signed a petition (1500 of them) to get the investigation going. So anything can happen from a fire and no wonder when you go back and see how those buildings came down–and you had to wonder if you had any engineering ability at all why Number 7 came down.
So my old Dad, with a 4th grade education was smart as hell–he said that Roosevelt actually ignored warnings about the Japanese coming in to bomb Pearl Harbor–Americans at that time had had enough with WW1 and 95% wanted nothing to do with the second world war some 4000 miles distant. FOIA’s have since proven my Dad correct in his way of thinking although he did even go down and try to enlist in the second world war after serving in the first. He was 45 at the time and had 4 children so they refused and put him in the 4-F category to be used if things got to where he was needed. He had too many kids so they put him on the back burner. He also said Hitler never committed suicide and FOIA’ showed the FBI did not believe he had either. And no it was not 19 Iraqui’s that flew into the twin towers but instead those friendly Saudi’s under the Saudi Ben Lauden that did the dirty work. So we do get played as buffons quite often since we are of the masses and too ignorant to see through the ruses. Well some of us are at least capable of some scrutiny of what the politicos say.
Well it was known that something had to happen to America to get us angered enough to enter the war. And the powers that were involved had to convince the masses–something Hitler did himself by burning the Reich stag and blaming it on the Russians. How are the people really to know the truth when these leaders can lie through their teeth and since most are hung to a TV or stuffing themselves with pizza and beer and knowing more about football than what it really taking place then you see how easy it is to fool the masses by the Corporations, etc.
Well when I was getting a bat hide in Psychology at NMSU, you could actually specialize in Corporate Psychology where you learn how to buffalo the masses into buying–corporate jobs doing that were at a premium compared to such things as counseling Psychology. A Psychology to help corporations peddle their shit–well why not–isn’t this country a consumer country–so much so we need Psychologists to entice us to buy and make up the methods and means to help the corporation profits and get the citizen deeper in debt. Debt after all is touted as a good thing–how will you live without a dishwasher for god’s sake? You might get chapped hands from washing dishes.
Or you need to be like my son–drive a 100 thousand dollar electric car-Tesla–his Chevy electric was not fancy enough. God knows how much debt he is in but then he is an RN so maybe he has the payment money. I now have three vehicles–one cost 600 then the tires another 800 and the other I came by from my son since he needed money. I keep two since mine are older and one is apt to conk out so it gives me an alternative until I get it fixed.
So debt might be good but it can also be a form of slavery. The corporate American rich folks in the 1% with 90% of the wealth will keep you in debt, the more they can make for usury. Let me tell you they prefer to sell you something on credit rather than cash.
So what is happiness–plenty of junk hanging around or a teepee with an inside toilet, hot water and a bath tub–or living the high life with a debt hanging over your head that you will never pay off even if you live to a hundred. In my case give me the teepee–but each to his own and I respect that. Just don’t buy your groceries in plastic if there is paper available–the oceans and lands are already overburdened by it.
So on the lighter side I did get a load of mesquite today and picked up one of those tin cans that has a lead seal in the center. It is rusted badly with part of it rusted away so on this desert that can looks to be 50 or more years in age. Strangely we knew lead was dangerous for health since the early 1800’s but Carnation Company and others disregarded and used it for a sealer anyway. These days if you have lead anywhere near food you would be fined. But it was amazing how long the corporations could seal that cheap way yet knowing it was unhealthy. And things have not changed that much when you see the prolific use of toxins–especially retardants and plastics and oil products.. Profit before health?
Those old cream cans near the old grader at Yarnell had the lead melted into a grey tear drop–appropriate to the situation and a reminder of how bad things can be when too little care was taken concerning the lives of those young heroes.
And yes Joy, I remember the two little girls from the American Legion visits and their mom and Dad–They were about 7 or 8 and now would be teen age now–little will they understand that he is another casualty of the retardant drops–he was not that old–in his 50’s as I remember. Did you know what he passed of? Give my condolences when you see that family again.
Whew–that count keeps going up yet few realize how toxic those chemical retardants are. Yes, I have suffered as well and damn sure know it was because we hiked through those retardant contaminated areas and lived in that Yarnell area–My heart attacks started some months–was it about a year after those huge retardant dumps that surrounded Yarnell.
I am one of the fortunate ones so to speak since I moved out of the area after a time. I believe had I stayed in the area I would be among the dead instead of the debilitated person I am. So we owe it to the survivors and others to warn them of the consequences of these retardants. In my opinion, anyone supporting retardant dumping should be charged with a crime most certainly if they are cognizant of the deadly toxins involved and how these retardants are ruining health, killing people, wrecking the environment, killing aquatic life, hundreds of thousands of fish, and creating dead zones in our oceans as well as polluting our underground fresh water sources.
But as your FS official was interviewed in your phone conversation you had recorded–People, especially those involved in these misdeeds, do not want the facts and certainly do not want the public to have the facts. But they are there and can not be denied–only blacked out, redacted, twisted, and kept from public access.
Fortunately, there are a few sites that allow freedom of expression and freedom for the flow of ideas. I certainly express my opinions and own them. And what I post is from study and research that anyone that has a brain can do themselves–and anything that I write that needs to be corrected or refuted is fine with me. We are after all a free society and in my own case what I post is to the best of my knowledge and with good intent to inform those that are not inclined to post what they know or are unable to spare the time to research the truth about the chemical inundation of our planet.
I am one to believe we have little effect attacking Godzilla but if we can get some out of the way of his destructive ways and save a life then we certainly have saved a world–maybe even our own and a few close to us.
Sadly this world has turned into somewhat of a nightmare–one of those we saw when the media sources were denied into the Yarnell area for months after the wild fire of 2013 so reporters could not uncover facts and interview individuals and get photos of the situation. Sadly too many residents were brainwashed into believing this was a good thing. The town was closed down under martial law for months as well so that no one could pass without being a resident with a green card in their window. The pretense that looting might happen was the cry–and there were a couple looters but during the fire acting as helpers. Always a few rotten apples, but after the fire residents fended well and none was reported–what was left to loot–people that had homes were back and they watched their neighborhood and neighbors burned homes well enough. When have you ever heard of a media person being a looter?
So the people are so brainwashed that they would give up their freedoms to think they are more secure. And they have no clue as to the destructive forces of the chemical drops believing the propaganda of the chemical supporters. Yet you have the solid death statistics of Yarnell and the fact that the town residents were by accident or by intention lab rats to the excessive dispersion of chemical retardants. At any rate it proved to a few of us that you will suffer dire consequences from the exposure to the retardant chemicals and most especially if you are elderly or compromised in your health already. The fish and the environment are not the only ones subject to the deadly effects of these chemicals.
JD has written some strong articles against the Mining Companies and others –even risking his life in protest against the cyanide dispersions and other chemical and oil and mineral related disasters that threaten the environment. It is this type of intestinal fortitude (raw guts) to stand up and protest these huge money backed felons.
They will continue to do their dirty works of pollution but some will continue to expose the tragedies to the people and environment.
Joy–I do not understand why you are not able to share FOIA information–those are public information that can be legally shared –WTKTT has made that clear several times. So if you can not then give it to someone that can–do you have a mum order legally keeping you from sharing? I know the legal assholes that did that thing with Yarnell were part of the system to keep from paying proper dues to the loved ones of the fallen 19. It was obvious the state was using all methods to keep the public ill informed and save the state money and I would guess many tax payers were happy about that. But to my way of thinking not justice to American standards.
So get the FOIA information out–I see nothing to restrain you–perhaps WTKTT and others of good wisdom on legalities will confirm what I think is correct.
I am sharing on my blog the foias and public records
I am doing something
I did not just hold on to it and that’s that
It’s not an easy process
I tried to allow a team to help with the records but now they are scared so yeah I have no interest in people getting involved just to gain and see then cop out and play they are scared
This is not an easy path once it is all out
But remember it took six plus years gathering so it will take that or longer to get it out
If you think it will take you less time than get the foias too then maybe some will get unsealed because the reply I got was mine were unpublished on some because I am the only requester… ??? So I always encouraged everyone to get their own but for me after reading some I preferred to go get an education so when I show the world I can explain them
I have no mum orders and I have a blog and I have shared and if you want more faster than pull them yourself because I am looking now at only three to five percent I lack in this and I made the choice best for all areas.
If you think 🤔 you can do it quicker and think you won’t get hit with road blocks then I am just one person so I have always gave key points here for the world to get their own
I am solid in what I have said so far
I am not under a gag
I have real stuff happening that cannot be discussed for the world especially when I am about to get some private areas handled so the pc world is not even a thought
I’m on a friend’s iPad right now to reply
I won’t be near my pc until the weekend
This week I finally get a full body assessment for cancer
That has been my priority this Season …
Health and healing
But Look back and skim all my posts and you will know WHERE to look for records on what to ask for
Caples RX Burn is also a focus to my life because if you see who was on the aftermaths of Yarnell and you have been affected by such then you will for sure want to pull the records on that RX burn. I said on Gabbert page the right folks know and that burn will not be swept under any rug and it might help to bridge some areas this Season.
I am headed to sleep.
Today was hair cut and sleep day 😴 💤
But yeah nothing I want to place out public yet but maybe some day
Right Michelle
Maybe some day
She should be the first hand person telling what she knows
Maybe she will stop saying what she did which at this point without further comment and communication falls under defamation so yeah I have areas in the works Sonny but none I can say on here or back channel.
But I will tell you if I was wealthy I would have got some areas done sooner.
Call Moser, Sonny…see if his pact part Is done or if it still exists
Listen Sonny….I gave MORE to the public than the SAIT SAIR ever did so I am ok with that for now
The SAIT SAIR can get endless funds if the time was needed
I on the other hand … different story.
You pull the records yourself in your name and place it out
Sound good.
???
Otherwise I will place information out when able…and I will continue to time stamp as long as allowed on here when I learn stuff.
I’m not in this to hold on to data but some requires much more digging and documentation before sharing it out,
Joy–I admire your abilities–and that answers my question–Ha you are giving nightmares to some but I am not one of those. Karma is giving a number of withholders, redactors, and fairy tale makers some bad nerves. Good Work, Joy–the Devil made ’em do it but you are prolonging their suffering.
You know some think I am a nothing in the aftermath of the YH Fire just some annoying public records puller yet it did and does take “me” to pull them because if YCSO or SAIT or YOU do…None of you know the people like me.
Lets take 911 calls that I have for countess hours reviewed and YCSO’s deputy radio communications. If you did it then it is just listening to countless hours of blah blah blah (yawn) but when I do it I know the deputies and the firefighters and the homeowners so that is a gem. I can time stamp the rythm when so and so was where and what time. Can you? Do you know I can know where fire behavior was by listening to the calls. I am able because I know the people. Thats why God created the paths he did before the YHFire as me as the desert walker. I also know it takes all of us to do our parts and it is not just me because as I showed firefighters and homeowners and cops that their own photos has the GMHS in them and I am not the only one with pics but again since I eyewitness it all then it takes me to show in their pics where all activities were so yeah….even though lately some layer out there I am a nobody to the Wildland Firefighter Industry…in time you will see I will teach the tools for anyone to face a Wildfire and its aftermaths. I know the index logs do not lie (or do they) on who asked for records and who went by biased perceptions and I know I have the most documents on Index Log History on many entities so the records hold weight. I hold weight. Literally. I mean I dropped 20 pounds the past week some how but I can gain it right back just how it rolls. Today is my full body cancer MRI and I am ready to see the results and my two surgeries are soon to assess some areas but I am still in this just have to make pauses here and there. Yet I have not said forget it. I know how much each of us matters. Its not a sole journey like the journalists and authors think that the facts will come out of their writing because some of the best writers will tell you they wait and take what others gather to make their story…they are not the original diggers…I am the original digger so much my grave is set and ready and until I pass on I will keep at this as much folks should have done from the get go instead they became family’s advocates versus pure research and writers…its true. I seen it up close.
Well said Joy–you deserve the gold star for your work and I am a witness to your efforts–right up front–many days, weeks, months and years seeing your incessant efforts and progress at getting the full story and truth of the killing of the 19 as well as the truth of the Yarnell wild land fire fighting debacle.
You photos are a book in themselves but your interviews and keen insights from the years of study and investigations into the wild fire incident can’t be rivaled. Your story and revelations will be the history to go to for the facts and actions that happened at Yarnell during the wild land fire of 20123.
I support and know of your good works. You are the encyclopedia and top investigator to the Yarnell investigation–the one to lead the future documentary of the 2013 wild fire at Yarnell that killed the 19 GMHS crew and became the centuries worst needless tragedy of wild land fire fighting events.
What were we looking for on the Weavers where the fire started from what was believed to be a lightening strike and ended in the deaths of 19 GMHS wild land fire fighters? Maybe someone hiking to that spot can find the spot that lightening hit.
Joy and I hiked there to the co ordinates given for point of origin of the wild fire but were never able to find evidence of the lightening strike. You would think that would have been of importance so that evidence of a lightening strike if indeed that were the cause.
Too much was presented about the Yarnell fire that had no evidence to prove the origin of that fire. You could not have seen the actual lightening strike from anywhere in Yarnell or anywhere east of the Weaver Range. It is just not possible since the point of origin is down hill on the West side of the Weaver Range and out of sight of anything to the east of the top of the Weavers.
Joy and I were looking for evidence of a tree or bush being struck and since there is very little of that type vegetation where the beginning of the fire was posted the lightening would have struck dirt in the area. There should have been fulgerites if indeed that were the cause. Fulgerites are melted dirt, sand or earth that has been heated above 2900 F. by a lightening strike. They consist of melted silica and in the case of sand or dirt they would be in the shape similar to what you see wjhen soap bubbles up from a soapy solution. For that area, their color would likely be brown or tan and glassy in appearance.
Fulgerites are a form of melted silica called lachetelierites used for ligtening strikes on sand or earth. Lachetelierites are found at the Trinity Site where the first atom bomb was exploded and on some meteorites. They are clear to various colors depending upon trace elements present. Because they are only formed at extreme temperatures they are not a natural silicate found on earth except at such places as an atom bomb site or from the surface of a meteorite where temperatures reach above 3000F. So if you find them, they are a rare occurance–it is illegal to gather them from the bomb site but if you go to that rock shop near the Trinity Site you can purchase some samples that fellow and wife had gathered before the restriction law was passed. I saw them but did not purchase–I have been exposed to enough radiation from my Uranium mining years and don’t need to add any to my already radioactive bones.
I did have the co-ordinates to where the FS posted the origin of the fire but could not find them. I was amazed that the FS investigators did not find and photograph for posterity the actual point of beginning of a fire that would be the worst fire fighting boondoggle in wild land fire fighting history. You know with 19 lives lost you sould have had that as a priority.
Remember when they started having fires deliberately set in California that eventually netted a life sentence to a fire investigator, they were going and fine screening the places the fire began to even finding the chared matches tied to a burning cigarette he was using for a delay tactic to distance himself from the fire.
His murders eventually resulted in as I remember 3 deaths of civilians. Here at Yarnell we are talking about 19 deaths of America’s finest. What gives?
So perhaps WTKTT or Joy or someone has those co-ordinates handy and would post them. Those that read this might just go to that area–a hike up the two track so not too bad but some steep in a couple places and a point not far off the beaten trail. Someone will get lucky and find the spot and have a rare prize if they find fulgarites and if they find the strike a prize photo that would be an important clue and part of the history that should be included in the Yarnell History of the deaths of the 19 GMHS crew.
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**
** R.I.P. CHRISTIAN JOHNSON
A date has finally been set for a memorial service for Okanogan County volunteer firefighter Christian Johnson.
Johnson was severely burned over 50-60 percent of his body back on Sunday, September 1, 2019, at the Spring-Coulee fire south of Okanogan, Washington.
He spent a full month in intensive care at the famous Harborview Medical Center Burn Unit in Seattle, Washington.
He had been reported to have been making good recovery progress and, according to public announcements from family members, had already undergone a number of successful skin-graft surgeries.
On September 26, 2019, his family again publicly reported that he was still doing well and was scheduled for even more surgeries… but Johnson died just 6 days later on the morning of October 2, 2019.
Johnson was born in 1963 in Salem, Oregon. He was 55 years old.
A public memorial service for Johnson will be held at the Okanogan County Fairgrounds Agriplex, Thursday, October 24, 2019, at 1 pm.
In lieu of flowers, the family would request that you make donations to the following organizations, who were all doing whatever they could to help from the moment the incident was reported…
1. The Washington State Council of Firefighters Burn Foundation.
2. The Wildland Firefighter Foundation.
3. The Okanogan Volunteer Fire Department.
4. The American Red Cross.
The Spring-Coulee fire started around 4:00 p.m. Sunday, Septermber 1, 2019, near B&O Road North, between Fletcher Loop Road and Spring Coulee Road. The fuel type was primarily GRASS. Mostly flat terrain, with a few small hills.
The suppression effort only lasted 90 minutes, and the fire was reported to have been contained ( at 142 acres ) by 5:30 PM.
During that 90-minute suppression effort, Christian Johnson and another ( still unnamed ) Okanogan County volunteer FF went to the north end of fire in their Type 6 Brush Truck.
At some point, they both exited their vehicle and began walking up a hill.
The fire came over the hill, right at them.
The second volunteer FF with Johnson was able to outrun the flames, but Johnson was not.
Their vehicle was NOT burned over and remained operational following the incident.
FIREHOUSE.COM
Article Title: Flames Overcame WA Firefighter after Leaving Truck
Published: September 4, 2019 ( By the The Wenatchee World, Wash. )
By: Reilly Kneedler
https://www.firehouse.com/safety-health/news/21095463/flames-overcame-seriously-burned-okagon-county-wa-firefighter-after-leaving-truck
From that article…
———————————————————————————————————-
OKANOGAN, WA
Authorities have determined that flames overtook firefighter Christian Johnson after he left his brush truck on the north side of the Spring-Coulee Fire on Sunday.
“The fire was coming over the hill … then the fire overtook him,” said Maurice Goodall of Okanogan County Emergency Management.
Johnson, an assistant chief with Okanogan County Fire District 3, was with another firefighter who wasn’t injured in the incident, Goodall said.
Authorities are still determining why the pair left their truck, which was still operational after the fire, he said.
“We’re still putting together all the pieces on that,” Goodall said.
Johnson, 55, was treated on the scene by Lifeline Ambulance and then airlifted to Harborview Medical Center in Seattle.
Johnson suffered severe second- and third-degree burns on 50-60% of his body.
His airway was scored a two out of four for damage, with four being the worst, according to an Okanogan County Emergency Management press release
Okanogan County and the Department of Natural Resources are jointly investigating the fire, Goodall said.
It began around 4 p.m. Sunday near B&O Road N between Fletcher Loop Road and Spring Coulee Road, according to the release. It was contained at 142 acres by 5:30 p.m. on Sunday.
———————————————————————————————————
** SECOND ENTRAPMENT AT THE SAME SPRING-COULEEE FIRE
According to media reports, there actually was ANOTHER entrapment at the SAME Spring-Coulee fire where Christian Johnson suffered his injuries.
This OTHER entrapment involved a unit from Riverside Fire District 7, which had also responded to the same Spring-Coulee fire as Johnson’s Okanogan Brush Truck.
According to the Omak-Okanogan County Chronicle, this Riverside fire unit radioed to dispatch that it was caught behind the fire line.
A state Department of Natural Resources helicopter had to be called upon to ‘rescue’ them.
The helicopter did a water-drop and then the Riverside unit ( and crew ) was able to reach safety.
It is still not known if this SECOND entrapment involving the Riverside unit happened BEFORE or AFTER the incident which burned Okanogan FF Christian Johnson.
If/when a report about the Spring-Coulee fire is ever released, it will be interesting to see if it acknowledges this SECOND entrapment at the SAME fire.
**
** THE OTHER ENTRAPMENT AT THE SPRING-COULEE FIRE
The following article has 6 still photographs taken at the September 1, 2019 Spring-Coulee fire.
It’s also one of the articles that mentions the other ( Riverside Fire District ) vehicle and crew becoming entrapped…
The Omak-Okanogan County Chronicle
Article Title: One injured as fire sweeps across hills southwest of Okanogan
Published: September 1, 2019 – By: Dee Camp
https://www.omakchronicle.com/free/one-injured-as-fire-sweeps-across-hills-southwest-of-okanogan/article_ac3cff5a-cd1d-11e9-9ab8-933a42515f30.html
From that article…
—————————————————————————————————–
SLIDESHOW: 6 photographs taken at the Spring-Coulee Fire, Sep 1, 2019.
OKANOGAN – Firefighters from several departments battled a wildfire Sunday afternoon, Sept. 1 off B&O North Road southwest of town.
Fire District No. 3’s Okanogan, Malott and Omak stations were called around 4 p.m. to 181 B&O North Road for the fire, which spread quickly with flames reaching 40 feet in height Riverside Fire District No. 7 and Conconully Fire District No. 9 were ( also ) called to assist.
At least one person was injured, apparently a firefighter. Details are sketchy at this time.
LifeLine Ambulance was called to assist the person, who apparently suffered burns.
Okanogan County Emergency Management issued a Level 1 (be aware) evacuation notification for residents of the area. Flames burned close to several homes.
Fire units were staged at several sites, including homes and the Animal Foster Care Cat Shelter, 4 Spring Coulee Road, for structure protection. Some items outside homes burned.
The fire burned into the Fletcher Loop Road area.
At one point, a Riverside fire unit radioed to dispatch that it was caught behind the fire line.
A state Department of Natural Resources helicopter dropped water nearby.
The Riverside unit was able to reach safety.
DNR also sent a couple airplanes.
By 6 p.m., local firefighters were in mop-up stage. Several units had left the scene by 6:30 p.m. DNR also remained on the scene.
Deputies, the Washington State Patrol an state Department of Fish and Wildlife monitored roadblocks, as several roads were closed. The U.S. Forest Service also responded.
The state Department of Natural Resources is investigating the cause of the fire, which blackened nearly 142 acres of grass and brush.
UPDATE (Sept. 2): The injured firefighter was flown from the scene to Harborview Medical Center, Seattle. No further information is available.
SECOND UPDATE (Sept. 2): The injured firefighter has been identified as Okanogan Fire Department Assistant Chief Christian Johnson. He is in a medically induced coma with second- and third-degree burns over 50 to 60 percent of his body.
—————————————————————————————————–
WTKT –are they using city fire fighters to do these wild land fires? It seems like that might be the case considering that they have poor understanding of wild land fires. I would guess that seasoned wild land fire fighters are becoming a rare breed these days. I have to believe the urban-rural hybrid fire fighter is at a great disadvantage with his safety greatly compromised by lack of understanding wild fires.
I also think the GMHS crew greatly lacked in understanding wild fire situation assessment. For instance, Donut not only did not understand safety rule importance but was left in a deadly position by his boss. Where he was left was an invitation to death, obvious if you had any common sense and happen to have been on that two track looking down his situation. He was in dense manzanita and it was dense all around him with the fire going NE away from hiim but also so when it turned it would be quickly cutting off his escape route. He could not have escaped by climbing the Weavers and the way out on that dirt trail was a couple miles of dense manzanita.
I could not understand Marsh or Steed ordering him out of there to a safe zone at about 10-10:30 when it was obvious that the fire had gone berserk and was at a lower elevation than his position ready to reverse with the winds at any moment. That management of men was more important than supposed attempted management of a wild fire that an army would not have been able to contain.
The only explanation of the risk to Donut was that Marsh or Steed had left him to fend for himself with no thought of how ignorant of safety and how dangerous and deadly the situation he was facing. I am surprised he did not have his boots off non nonchalantly watching the fire when Frisby happened by.
Reply to Charlie post on October 13, 2019 at 9:08 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> WTKT –are they using city fire fighters to do these wild land fires?
>> It seems like that might be the case considering that they have poor
>> understanding of wild land fires. I would guess that seasoned wild
>> land fire fighters are becoming a rare breed these days. I have to
>> believe the urban-rural hybrid fire fighter is at a great disadvantage
>> with his safety greatly compromised by lack of understanding wild fires.
The Okanogan County volunteer fire departments are, in fact, ‘hybrid’ fire departments.
Similar to Peeples Valley fire department and Yarnell fire department.
They are typical ‘all-service’ volunteer fire departments that respond to all kinds of different things like structure fires, wildland fires, car accidents, generic 911 calls, etc. etc.
Christian Johnson had been an Okanogan County volunteer FF for 20 years.
So he was no ‘rookie’.
According to the caption on the photo below, the following article contains a photo of Christian Johnson at a wildfire in 2015.
The article was published September 13, 2019, and it was about Johnson being injured in the Spring-Coulee fire on September 1, 2019, but the photo at the top of the article shows him helping with a burnout at a wildfire in 2015.
In that photo, Johnson is NOT wearing wildland fire gear or PPE.
He is in his regular ‘structural firefighter’ TURNOUTS.
The other Okanogan County volunteer firefighter in the photo ( Andy Cruz ), is the one with the drip-torch. He has a Nomex shirt on, and he is, in fact, wearing gloves while doing the burnout, but his pants are blue-jeans and he has no helmet or goggles or any other PPE at all.
KGMI NEWS
Article Title: Firefighter burned in wildfire faces long recovery
Published: September 13, 2019 10:09 am
https://kgmi.com/news/007700-firefighter-burned-in-wildfire-faces-long-recovery/
Direct link to the photograph of Christian Johnson in his structural TURNOUTS…
https://kgmi.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/70/files/2019/09/AP_438008392781-1200×768.jpg
From the article…
——————————————————————————–
TOP PHOTO CAPTION:
Okanogan fire captain Christian Johnson, right, walks past as firefighter Andy Cruz torches grass to burn out an area between a house and a main wildfire Saturday, August 22, 2015, in Okanogan, Washington.
————————————————————————————
It is still not known what volunteer FF Christian Johnson was wearing when he suffered his fatal burn injuries at the September 1, 2019, Spring-Coulee fire.
He and the other volunteer FF responded to the fire in a Type 6 Brush Truck, but they may have just been wearing their regular ‘structural’ TURNOUTS instead of wildland PPE.
It’s also not known whether it made any damn difference WHAT kind of gear Johnson was wearing. From what is known so far, the fire came over the hill he was walking up so quickly that it probably didn’t matter if he even HAD regular WFF gear on and a fire shelter with him. It sounds like he didn’t have time to even consider deploying a fire shelter, even if he had one on him that day.
Perhaps this will be mentioned if/when a report ever comes out about the Spring-Coulee fire and the circumstances surrounding Johnson’s fatal injuries.
Maybe what he was wearing DID make a difference.
Maybe Johnson WAS wearing his full sturctural TURNOUTS when he went to climb that hill with the other volunteer FF, and the other FF was NOT ( as shown in the 2015 photo above ). Maybe that contributed to the pther FF being able to run fast enough, but Johnson was not.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I also think the GMHS crew greatly lacked in understanding wild fire
>> situation assessment.
It has ALWAYS been ( and will probably ALWAYS be ) a head-scratcher how a crew that many people have said had all kinds of wildland fire ‘experience’ could have been making so many poor decisions on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
As I have said before… just looking at the evidence for THAT day and the decisions that were being made THAT day ( alone )… it’s almost as if this was one of the first wildland fires that crew had ever been on and none of them had any idea what COULD happen ‘out there’ in that fuel type.
Eric Marsh’s ( and Jesse Steed’s ) decision making that day led to the greatest tactical blunder in the history of wildland firefighting.
NOTE: That 2015 photo of Okanogan County vounteer FFs Christian Johnson and Andy Cruz performing a burnout has suddenly been REMOVED from the top of that KGMI article mentioned above.
But the original photo is still sitting there on the KGMI news server.
Direct link to the 2015 photograph of Christian Johnson in his structural TURNOUTS…
https://kgmi.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/70/files/2019/09/AP_438008392781-1200×768.jpg
That original 2015 photo of Okanogan County volunteer FFs Christian Johnson and Andy Cruz is also preserved in the ‘Internet Archive’ ( Wayback Machine ) at the following link…
https://web.archive.org/web/20190917234518/https://kgmi.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/70/files/2019/09/AP_438008392781-1200×768.jpg
Ditto for the original September 13, 2019 KGMI article.
It has been preserved in the ‘Internet Archive’ ( Wayback machine ) just as it was published, including the photo and caption at the top of the article.
https://web.archive.org/web/20190914013924/https://kgmi.com/news/007700-firefighter-burned-in-wildfire-faces-long-recovery/
Horrible to fathom the demise of Christian Johnson and the ordeal he suffered before death. These burns are tremendously painful–and that I can speak from experience. Before I had mentioned about a fire chief in Las Cruces had put a glass jug of gasoline on a wood stove when I was a child–the jug cracked and I was afire. Quick thinking by my Mom doused me in an old time coke box that used ice and water to keep those cokes cold. Still I had to have skin grafts to my leg and that long scar remains the full length and half the circumference of the calf of my right leg. Probably one of the reasons I have respect for fire and would not want to be a fire fighter due to subconscious memories of a painful situation.
So my condolences to Christian Johnson’s family. I feel their pain. Considering that he had so many years fire fighting experience, I hope the investigation is not treated like the Yarnell incident. Too many wild land fire fighters are getting hurt or killed and truthful investigations are the only way to stop the problem.
Thinking of Norb–I know he ran two crews for something above 20 years without any significant injuries or deaths. He also is a city and urban interface and wild land fire fighting person. In his case he must have had some good understanding of wild fires to have been successful at keeping his crew and himself intact. And being in the Lake Tahoe area he must have some thoughts on that intentional burn gone bad.
Joy by all means share your experience and conversations with Donut. He has gained himself a terrible reputation and lack of sympathy for withholding and distortions of facts—so what might help his past errors of life? Did he step into the Jesus realm, repent and find the strait and narrow? Did God or an alien implant impose upon his conscience to come forth from the closet of cover up and deception? Pray tell us since we have been the prey of deception for so long.
And I know you are the one that can get to the conscience of people–they either love you or hate you and that is always a good sign for an investigative person getting at the bottom of it.
The sooner the better–your enemies may have your demise planned so that knowledge will never surface. Better it does then no reason to do you harm if it is out and public.
Sonny
If they have a demise for me…the right folks have it.
It will not die with me.
I am not the sole person to the data.
They had plenty of reliable NOAA NWS warning that red flag conditions were coming with cold fronts to follow and they still lit their RX burn!
Prescribed fire escapes on Eldorado National Forest
The fire has burned over 2,000 acres 15 miles southwest of Lake Tahoe in Northern California
( https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/10/11/prescribed-fire-escapes-on-eldorado-national-forest/#comments )
I hope you all are watching CA fires…
Norb…are you? Its ridiculous
I know so many would love to know me in person about right now…to chime in to be the Safety Officer on that fire…I have the bubble gum creds but isnt that the new way…right…major lawsuits already in action…and wait until they see the TRUE story on that…that shit will surface faster and easier than Yarnell…too many in the right spots are on it and documenting that to high heaven…and wasnt someone on yarnell and its aftermath gonna be tied into that…man I am so sick of the bullying….the crap…if you all knew how dangerous this year has been and how bogus…its off the charts…the bullying is on them…I keep my head high and just keep on documenting this fake ass way of the world
God is good…all the time even during the pressures and SQUASH rumors you hear on me please…they are trash people out there right now…
Bed time for me…
What a freaking crazy world…
Are you talking about someone playing both sides of the coin Joy? Maybe the double agent kind of thing–I do not know why someone would want to do that but I could see how it could work playing along with a lie to get the truth. The Jews did it in the old testament and still do it with Assad as does the CIA, KGB substitutes and so forth. But is this really a national security issue. I lke the JD approach–flat out tell it like it is and if you don’t like it check the facts or keep your head stuck in the sand.
Yavapai is at it again–JD’s article on the attempt to manipulate the water system so that the cronies control and can profit. Here El Paso Electric was bought out for 4.2 Billion–good money in selling people electric. The bills will go up–and if mine get past $50 per month then up goes my 20 solar panels of 385 W each.
Trump if he wanted to make America Great again would instead of building the Iron Curtain furnish every home with solar panels with that money. Ween us from the Arabs and the worries of the terrorist groups and let those people do their thing–kill each other as we did during the civil war. Humans are barbarians and that group is high on that scale yet we keep screwing with theiir countries since they have the oil. In a way you cant blame them for being pissed at the US–if they fucked with us like we do with them we would be bombing away.
Bush and his cronies lied about the Iraq having nuclear facilities–and the falling of the twin towers was the good excuse to hit Sodomy Hussein. Halliburton profited greatly and Bush keep the oil coming our way and protected the Bush interests in oil. Even Building took a hit and so records of a lot of undercover and illegal activities must have been destroyed. But you can bet people would never believe that such a nice guy could be such an ass. But even bigger asses have appeared and none are willing to turn loose of the oil economy–they rather continue the pollution and play the oil game despite technology to ween us from almost all oil and nuclear energy. But then the powers that be are beholden to the oil magnates, World Bankers, and other such corporate entities that own the media and politicians.
Yavapai is just one small example–but the big picture of the US and its system are bought and the main public has no clue and you can bet the media these days is going to be hard to present stories that matter unless it is something designed to change laws to the corporate benefit or increase government safety measures. We saw it in the cover up at Yarnell where Forest and Fire Fighting reputations and actions should have been exposed remained unquestioned and intact. No blame-no shame and no change.
Few people know that to find some real truth they must for the most part use the internet and such sources as Investigative Media–independent individuals that do not fear giving us the facts. If you remember Gary Webb, the Journalist that killed himself after exposing the CIA and its looking the other way–even engaging in the humongous drug smuggling by the Contras into the US. He was working for a relatively small paper but the big ones like CBS, ABC, etc. played his story down. It took a year or so before the CIA had to come clean on that because of Congressional investigations. But Gary lost his job over it and every where he went to try to get a journalistic job he was blackballed. Gary Olson had his experience and knows the game–he managed to beat it somewhat but had to have had plenty of stresses doing it.
And President Reagan sanctioned all that drug thing while yelling we are at war with the Drugs killing our kids out of the other side of his mouth. So you see when I hear Trump saying things about the media or how he is treating corporations I also wander if this is all a ploy to appease the masses. You can hardly believe a damn thing out of any politicians mouth and about the only thing the public might know that was certain was that Bill Clinton was getting a blow job off Monica since he said it wasn’t sex.
So anyway–keep up the good work if you are able. Maybe we will have a place among the stars–there is no guarantee except one–good deeds and truth bring good Karma to the soul but might also be dangerous,.
Chapter 29.
Wow.
Anyone here use Facebook
Im thinking about joining
Any tips?
I rather stay off social media
Yet for some odd reasons I seen the platform be used for pure disgust…
I never knew the valuable information that came from that site and did anyone else in regards to YHFire?
It is funny to see the folks on the YHFire have such a depth pact…sick really.
Anyone who used their fireboot on YHFire causing harm to another…I am almost there in gathering YOUR data…how do you all sleep at night? I can get some loved ones wanting to lock on image and hero stuff but us there on those Weavers doing such mannerism..sick….
The light shines….no matter how dark you want to orchestrate…in His time it is coming all out not just some…yes ALL…there is no books or movies or competition in this yet I will ensure these mens true story surfaces and hear me on this …from AIR to GROUND..again from AIR to GROUND and I will cover Battlement Fire and other fires too…Shawna will have her story told some day too…and Vicki and others…too many watched your stories unfold…
One of you are an avatar here yet use FB and well…interesting to see…double agents about???
I know some are tied up in areas or have their hands tied or whatever label but again the light will come…and I turned down my first Fire assignment based on watchouts and human factors even if it was gonna pay well…safety matters…how about that CA bullshit they are dishing out…so far from the truth what they are doing…too many are watching for them to think its going unnoticed…Caples RX Burn….when are they gonna wake up and learn…the water sheds will be affected…
Who is the avatar and what was said on Facebook Joy?
Not really a good idea to join Facebook for you Joy–but only my opinion–too many trolls and your sensitive nature might drive you to depression and depressive acts. Oh would Hitler have loved these social media formats. Good lord, he would be able to pick and choose the willing from the not so willing and hand pick the yes men to his cause and save the no sayers for his other cause-extermination.
As you can see I would not subscribe to such but it would not matter–anyone posting on IM would be suspect anyway–unless as you say they were a double agent.
I am pretty sure now that God is a super computer way beyond anyones imagination except how to play with mankind and experiment with our genes, DNA and behavior. Everything about you is on a data base in the cloud and easily fetchable by the Super Computer. God has the 144 thousand already known before they are known. And a super computer that is above all maximum super computers is able to shape shift and shift from one time zone to another and one dimension to another with no problem or resistance–especially from a finite creation of his own making. Of the 7 billion hanging loose on earth—what are his plans–144 thousand is minuscule to his discretion on things.
Well it says in the Scriptures that if he does not intervene then no flesh would be saved alive–so if you believe the Scriptures then an underground city will be of little help, if any. And if the government let loose of all its truthful information, and what may scientists say as we go about our daily lives–;you indeed would be wanting a reserve ticket to someplace besides earth.. Aldrich said there were footprints on the moon when he arrived which he dutifully photographed and now does not know what NASA did with them. They claim he had a nervous break down–the moon trip was too much for him. But what about Cooper, Mitchell and also the numerous Russian Cosmonauts that reported seeing alien craft? And the numerous, Military of high rank and thousands of Pilots–are these highly reputational people liars? A General reported craft above nuclear facilities that were totally and inexplicably shut down as the craft hovered. Are these false information providers to the public? Some strange stuff -convince Joy to share some photos she took while I was along–she is a celebrity as a UFO photographer in her own rite. Green lasers? I saw them in her photos yet we could not see them out of the photo. Scratch your head but you could bet those would be active enough to shut down any reactor.
Now what has this to do with wild land fires? Turn those lasers up and they will melt a hole through a rock and start fires without even being seen.d And what about these little drones we are so fond of to use to kill terrorist with. You can buy one on the cheap at Wal Mart. Can you rig it to drop off an incendiary device? Who would ever know if it were sent off to some deserted place in the forest?
I thought of buying one for a camera thing but I don’t like fooling with junk. Yet your local terrorist cell has already thought of these things–if not then you must think they are dunces. Most have been educated right here in our engineering departments–don’t spend much time on TV but rather bumping heads to Allah and dreaming up schemes I would believe.
Too many agenda’s and the masses are none the wiser. Maybe they can’t be in dummed down environment. Buckle up for the ride on this one seat belts mandatory.
On second thought–maybe I lay too much blame to terrorist groups–they are shadowed pretty closely and must know it. But what of an arsonist–say one like that fire investigator that did over a 100 arsons? I have a feeling that drones will be outlawed somewhere along the line but these fellows will then start floating balloons or some other idea–but the more restrictions the more the prisons benefit. Good luck if you own a drone–all I have are in the ant beds.
I am not the same sensitive gal you pioneered with
I am very much thickened in that area since 2011…or even when we last saw another in 2017.
I think education does that.