Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI and Chapter XXII.
© Copyright 2016 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
joy is tough goes up the hill with sonny. See I do not like to talk but joy is there and in the know. Sorry to say but Marsh and Steed dd kill the men they had supervision over. World facts and we yet do not know who prodded Marsh. Steed and Marsh are not heroes they did the wrong thing even knowing that. It is like a nervous cop killing a citizen.
I did not remember that post–Nov.30, 2016, yet I am still alive and kicking today against all odds and Joy is still climbing mountains in more ways than one.
The pill companies get richer selling the pills, the doctors get rich selling the pills
Tex Gilligan
6:04 AM (7 minutes ago)
to Arizona.Desert.Walker
Then the lawyers are getting rich suing the companies and doctors , then a few sick patients are getting rich collecting but whether they have time left to enjoy the booty I doubt it–and if you are a Yarnell retardant victim then you die poor because no one thinks the retardant does anything to health. You damn well know how healthy I was before the Yarnell life as a guinea pig–now I need that cripple tag on my pickup–maybe I looked silly loading lumber at Home Depot today and last week but I think guys see the cripple tag and run over to help–and that is ok these days–maybe they see something I don’t.
I did get a haircut today so I looked a few years younger and felt it too.
Tex Gilligan
6:11 AM (0 minutes ago)
to Arizona.Desert.Walker
and the retardant companies get richer at the expense of killing the elderly and ruining long term the health of all–yet the guinea pigs do not squeal loud enough because they are brain dead from the BS the FS feeds them. Joy what a shame this world is in but then this too will pass and damn I am the surviving victim like those few that survived the bombs in Japan but for how long is always the question–maybe God put us on the borderline between death and life so we could squeal. Keep up your good work, Christ said you ought not expect reward in this life–that comes later in another life when you wake up a queen.
You have to love JD–he is helping to save the wolves–we could use a few down here to get rid of too many jack rabbits and so I am having to fill in but not doing the work they could do. I gave up trapping coyotes years ago when one backed up and took a shite on my trap. I said these fellows have it hard and they are more intelligent than some humans I have met. I decided right then that I had no right to take them for their hides than they have to take me for my hide. I gave up trapping–not a good thing for the balance of nature. But then the homo sapiens has taken over the planet and in the process of ruining it–those intelligent fellows along the lines of Trump are doing their best to pollute and denying the reality of how inconsiderate of other species some really are and so disregard the environment problem that we are in danger of making this earth inhabitable.
Well there is one thing that we are good at–killing each other off and the civil war we killed thousands of our own–something you can not imagine and when it comes to the future there are plenty that will find the means to do more than the twin tower ordeal and they are not our brothers in arms. Maybe Trumps fence will keep a few out for a time but humans are quite resourceful–especially those in need and looking at those that have plenty. So will the fence do good or only anger and cause more trouble in the long run? I will bet there will be found many ways around it–we have a hell of a long coastline on both the Pacific and the Atlantic–and I have seen Russian U Boats docked off Seattle. There by permission I am certain but likely could come in secretly.
But it is better to keep life simple, maybe not too simple. The fire fighter both city and wild land and smoke jumper types are being robbed–of their health and in my way of thinking their paychecks are a pittance for the problems they will meet in later life concerning their health. Breathing smoke and especially that laced with the plastics is certain to cause problems down the line for the young ones and quickly for the older set. If you deny that then you deserve to be a smoker–they deny the facts of cigarette smoke and go right on ruining their health and keeping the cigarette companies fat. Truly it is an addiction and the cigarette companies are happy to oblidge your death wish all the while smiling as they check their accounts. So to are the retardant companies and the FS BS telling you that smoke is not a threat to your health nor is the retardant vapors you breath in. Gary is correct–put those respirators on–he knows like I know the dangers of that shit. We are subjects of its effects–something no one should experience–especially in the golden years when one wants to enjoy the terminal years.
These are my opinions and I own them–subject to change if I ever see evidence to change them. I won’t hold my breath–there isn’t much to hold.
**
** AIR ATTACK RORY COLLINS ‘CONFIRMED’ ( TO THE SAIT ) THAT
** HE TOLD THOMAS FRENCH AND JOHN BURFIEND IN ‘BRAVO 33’
** TO TURN THEIR ATTENTION TO YARNELL AT 3:50 PM.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on September 13, 2016 at 3:55 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> I have a question relating to air attack on the Yarnell Hill fire:
>>
>> Did saving private and commercial landholdings for timber
>> play into air attack’s decision to remain in the Peeple’s Valley
>> area dropping retardant for 40 extra minutes on June 30,2013
>> when they had been directed to fly to Yarnell?
Well… I don’t believe ANY of the ‘land’ in that area qualified as ‘timber holdings’.
At best… it would have only qualified as ‘grazing land’, if anything… and by the time the fireline was near the ‘Model Creek’ area and ‘Hays Ranch Road’… the only ‘property’ being threatened was PRIVATE property ( Maughan Ranch land ) and PRIVATE residences ( Model Creek and Peeples Valley ).
That being said… there is NO evidence that I know of that has surfaced to support a theory that, after Thomas French and John Burfiend ( in aircraft known as ‘Bravo 33’ that day ) were TOLD at 3:50 PM by the current ‘Air Attack’ to switch the *focus* of Air Support to the Yarnell side of the fire… that anyone on the ground then ‘over-rode’ that ‘directive’ and insisted that ‘Air Support’ STAY focused on the NORTH side of the fire.
It would still appear that it was simply Thomas French and/or John Burfiend, in ‘Bravo 33’ who decided ( themselves ), once the previous ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins left the area at 3:58 PM, to stay *focused* on what they had been doing up there on the NORTH end, even though the obvious ‘immediate threat’ was now on the Yarnell side of the fire… and even though they had TOLD Rory Collins ( at 3:50 PM ) that they were switching their focus to Yarnell and were (quote) “headed that way”.
There are also no ‘radio captures’ in the current evidence record which show that anyone else on the ground was purposely ‘diverting’ French and Burfiend from doing what they had said they would do at 3:50 PM.
But there is also ( supposedly ) no FULL recording of the ‘Air To Ground’ channel in this timeframe.
The Eric Panebaker AFUE ( Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness ) Study Group that was there in Yarnell appears to have been ONLY doing a contiguous recording of the ‘Air To Air’ radio channel… even though ‘specifications’ for the AFUE Study itself say that BOTH the ‘Air To Air’ AND the ‘Air To Ground’ channels are supposed to be recorded at each Incident ‘studied’.
If the Panebaker AFUE Study Group really did make a contiguous recording of the ‘Air to Ground’ channel similar to the one they DID make for the ‘Air To Air’ channel… that ‘Air To Ground’ radio channel recording has still never seen the light of day.
There is also the ‘mysterious’ Dan Sullivan.
Dan Sullivan was ‘ordered up’ via ROSS at 9:34 AM on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013 to be a ground-based ‘Air Support Group Supervisor’ ( ASGS ) for the Yarnell Hill Fire that day.
Dan Sullivan was ‘based’ in ‘Prescott’. His ‘order number’ was O-30, and both that ‘resource order’ and testimony from other individuals places ASGS Dan Sullivan ARRIVING in Yarnell that Sunday around 10:30 AM… about 1 hour after he was ‘ordered up’ via the ‘Prescott Dispatch Center’.
Someone named Brad Zettler was ALSO ‘ordered up’ as an ASGS for Yarnell the night BEFORE, at 10:49 PM on Saturday, June 29, 2013. His ‘order number’ was O-16.2. He was already there in Yarnell before Dan Sullivan arrived. Brad Zettler WAS interviewed by ADOSH, and in that interview he said he arrived in Yarnell as early as 7:30 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
But Zettler then became basically just the HEB1 ( Helibase Manager ) for the Yarnell Hill Fire… and remained ‘HEB1’ for the rest of the day just dealing with ‘Helicopters’ and the location of the ‘Helibase’ for Yarnell operations.
Brad Zettler CONFIRMED ( to ADOSH ) that this ‘other’ ASGS named Dan Sullivan HAD arrived in Yarnell circa 10:30 AM or so… but the only thing Brad Zettler says this Dan Sullivan person did that day was to help him ( Zettler ) locate a better ‘Helispot’ for the Helciopters than the one that was in use on the north side of Hays Ranch Road.
Don Glassgow, the manager of the ‘Maughan Rances’ was offering the use of a small airstrip on the ‘Maughan Ranch’ property… and Zettler says Dan Sullivan agreed to go ‘check it out’. But Sullivan reported back that he didn’t like that airstrip as a better alternative to just using the ‘crop circles’ there on the north side of Hays Ranch Road.
But that is ALL we know about what ASGS ‘Dan Sullivan’ ever did that day in Yarnell.
Yarnell ‘Air Support Group Supervisor’ ( ASGS ) Dan Sullivan was ( apparently ) NEVER ‘interviewed’ by ANYONE.
We KNOW he was there all day… because Glen Ilah resident Bryan Smith has confirmed that it was Dan Sullivan himself who ‘rescued’ him and his 84 year-old-cousin Pearl Moore ( Rest In Peace ) later that afternoon, circa 4:45 PM, on the streets of Glen Ilah. It was NOT ‘Gary Cordes’, as was originally reported by ‘The Arizona Republic’ ( AZCENTRAL ).
Dan Sullivan remained ‘on the clock’ as an ASGS for the rest of the day… but there is no evidence ( or testimony ) that he was actually interacting with the ‘Air Support’ over Yarnell at all at any time that day, or whether HE, himself, might have been, somehow, ‘assigning any priorities’ for the ‘Air Support’ at any time that day. Maybe he did. Maybe not.
** SEVEN DAYS
In just SEVEN days, on September 21, 2016, ‘Oral Arguments’ will finally be heard in the appeal regarding the consolidated ‘Yarnell Property Damage’ lawsuits.
If the decision of the lower court judge ( Maricopa County judge Richard Gama ) to not even let these lawsuits ‘have their day in court’ is overturned by the appeals court… then the lawsuits are once again clear to head to a TRIAL.
If there is no ‘settlement’ of ALL of the 165+ consolidated lawsuits known as “ACRI et al. v. STATE et al”… then the resulting TRIAL will most assuredly FOCUS on this whole ‘Air Support’ issue… for the ENTIRE three days of the Yarnell Fire leading up to the disaster and the fatalities on Sunday.
If that happens… it’s probably worth pointing out that not only will ASGS Dan Sullivan most likely be called to the ‘witness stand’ and will have to ( finally ) swear to “tell the WHOLE truth” and reveal everything he did ( or didn’t ) do that day…
…the whole ‘story’ about WHY the ‘Air Support’ never arrived over Yarnell in the later afternoon will also become a ‘focus’ of the trial itself.
And, as it happens, not only do we have the ‘radio capture’ of Air Attack Rory Collins TELLING ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) to ‘switch their focus’ to Yarnell at exactly 3:50 PM that day… and French telling Collins he would do exactly that and was “headed that way”…
…there is ALSO actual ‘testimony’ from Air Attack Rory Collins himself saying that is EXACTLY what he had TOLD Thomas French and John Burfiend ( Bravo 33 ) to do.
ADOSH was never ‘allowed’ to interview Air Attack Rory Collins… but Mike Dudley and Jim Karels of the Arizona Forestry contracted SAIT investigation team WERE.
And in the now-public ‘Interview Notes’ from that SAIT interview with Air Attack Rory Collins… CONFIRMED what the radio captures themselves tell us.
That he DID, in fact, TELL ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) to immediately switch the ‘focus’ of the Air Support to the Yarnell side of the fire at 3:50 PM, on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
But even though Thomas French ‘acknowledged’ that ‘order’ and told Collins he was “headed that way” ( at 3:50 PM )… Thomas French and John Burfiend ended up doing no such thing. They stayed ‘focused’ on no-longer-high-priority projects on the NORTH side of the fire until it was too late to make any difference with ‘Air Support’ down on the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire.
( Continued Next Reply )
No timber to speak of here, pinon does not qualify, and the toothpick trees for lumber were not valuable–something about the trees in the vicinity–if you should make them into lumber, it would be brittle and easily rotted. Arizona timber in this area is very dangerous if you put loads on it. Be that as it is, like the Yahoos that brag about their efforts at saving Yarnell.
Now here is something to contemplate. You hike up a trail and the first thing to meet is a sign with Eric Marsh name on it. Holy shit, the man killed 18 under him and now he is the first on the trail. Then Jessie Steed who did finally listen to Eric is next. Good lord, let us define heroes.
Heroes do not kill their crews because they wanted to prove themselves. Saving a structure or attempting to save a structure does not define you as a hero no more than saving a burning car by shooting a fire extinguisher makes you a hero. But to attempt to save a structure at the expense of 18 lives should not even qualify you to be posted on that trail up to see where the men that obeyed your strict orders daily died. Believing in your bull shit and its enormous cost of lives, II do say disqualifies you as a hero. See in this world, make believe does not work. The facts are there and 17 young souls are dead because of Marsh, Steed and whoever else involved caused the fire to escalate and whoever caused the men to try to protect the Helms Ranch.
Do it right, tell the truth and be done with it. Trying to make heroes out of men that killed their crew will only cost future wild land fire fighter lives. Honesty always works out for the best.
Now some are going to say, Sonny, what the hell does he know. Well go read RTS, Provencio, John Daugherty, Gary Olson, Dr. Ted Putnam, Woodsman, WTKTT, Norb, Ben, Charlie Mosely, CIA, and I could add 50 more reputable wild land fire fighters and citizen investigators that know my statements are facts. A shame that reputations are coming before lives yet you have the best and elite among knowledgeable men in the wild fire fighting professions telling the truth of why these GMHS did die.
Well…I made it back from my two week vacation down in the dunes…I think. That is to say I think I was gone for two weeks, not that I think I am back…I know I am back. Although not only is it a little hard for me to keep track of time (Is this a…what day is this?) but it is a little hard for me to keep track of when my vacations start and when they stop.
Yes…I never grow tired of rubbing it in to you bread winners out there in cyber world…the good news is that you are still relevant, the bad news is that you are still relevant.
I stay in a camp ground while I am down there without any television or internet unless I go use the Wi-Fi at their office, which I don’t generally do. So it is going to take me a while to catch up on what has been going on here on the blog to see if I have anything constructive to add or even if I have something that isn’t constructive to add, because that is what I do.
In the meantime…I have a rhetorical question for you, who are indeed my closest friends and confidants. Do you think Trouble looks for me wherever I go and sometimes finds me; or do you think I look for trouble wherever I go and sometimes find it?
http://oregondunes.com/1BadJeepers.html
I would especially like my good friend from Canada (Rocksteady) to watch this video. God Bless the Canadian people who are some of our best friends and closest allies!
Gary Olson , thank you for being like your Dad and any miner. To back down is bull shit when you know the truth.
New chapter:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/
**
** THAT’S A WRAP?
They may have a few more misc scenes to film over there in New Mexico, but the actor that was hired to play ‘Eric Marsh’ ( Josh Brolin ) in this ‘Granite Mountain’ fillum thing is now saying ‘Goodbye’ to the project…
From actor Josh Brolin’s PUBLIC Instagram page…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BJvp0QfgUID/
————————————————————–
Comment from: joshbrolin – 12 hours ago.
Bye New Mexico. Thank you for an amazing four months!
————————————————————–
So whatever ‘decisions’ these filmmakers were REQUIRED to make about what THEY think actually ‘happened’ have already been made and that footage is now “in the can”.
All that remains to be seen is what THEY decided THEY think ‘happened’… and based on what evidence.
This is also one of those movies that needs one of those “And then THIS is what happened” INFO boxes appearing at the end.
I wonder if, right before the credits roll, their ‘And then THIS is what happened’ box will say something like…
—————————————————————–
An Arizona Forestry contracted SAIR investigation found that no one did anything wrong in Yarnell, despite the fact that 19 supposedly elite firefighters burned to death in that Arizona Forestry workplace… but Arizona’s own Department of Occupational Safety and Health, legally responsible for investigating fatal workplace accidents, levied historic citations and FINES against Arizona Forestry and found that extreme incompetence and negligence on the part of supervisors working the Yarnell Hill Fire contributed to the ‘entrapment’ and ‘deaths’ in that Arizona Forestry workplace.
—————————————————————-
OR… maybe their ‘INFO BOX’ at the end of the film and before the credits roll will just say….
—————————————————————-
You may now reach under your seat and remove the plastic American flag that has been pre-placed there and please wave it vigorously on your way out of the Theatre.
—————————————————————-
OR… something ‘in-between’ those two options?
After a lot of thought I am at a loss as to what WTKTT is calling or identifying who is the
NEW HYBRID FIRE FIGHTERS
Dose the Identification actually encompass all the City, County and State Fire Fighters or has there been a separation of different Cities, Counties and States ?
It seems that they are all being lumped together which is a show of ignorance about Wild Land Fire Fighters through out the Country.
Gary’s —Rise of the Hybrid Fire Fighters seems to have taken a new twist by WTKTT and now Woodsman’s references which are slightly different..
Let me be clear — there are many wild land fire organizations out there that are Highly Qualified outside the Federal Agencies.
The West has many of these State and County Organizations that are not Hybrid. Some but not all City and Rural Fire departments have qualified Wild land Fire Fighters.
In the Federal Agencies you have to work your way up thru the Fire Organization with Training Assignments and S-Courses before you fill positions in the ICS system. That includes reviews from the Districts to the Supervisors Office, Regional Office to NIFC reviews on Type 1 and Type 2 positions.
The States answer to each Region their State is in and the City’s and County’s answer to each State.
So there may be some holes in the process but to class all in one Category is as I have said before ASININE.
HYBRID is a term which has no boundaries or it is a situation where some Fire Fighters are being upgraded with out full qualifications and used outside their units. That is not Happening on every Fire. and probably less than 5% of the time.
Some of you are assuming that many of these units are not fully trained or Qualified, that my friends is Wrong.
**
** FATIGUED BIA WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER CHARGED WITH
** HOMICIDE IN THE DEATHS OF TWO OF HIS CREWMATES
The deaths took place just this last Saturday. Charges have been filed.
FOX 9
Article Title: Charges: Driver fell asleep in crash that
killed 2 Michigan ( Wildland ) Firefighters
Published: Aug 29 2016 04:40PM CDT
Updated:Aug 29 2016 06:07PM CDT
http://www.fox9.com/news/197080901-story
From that article…
—————————————————————————–
BLAINE, Minn. (KMSP) – A Michigan ( wildland ) firefighter is being charged with criminal vehicular homicide in connection with the crash that killed two of his fellow firefighters and injured several others on Interstate 35W in Blaine, Minn. Saturday, August 27, 2016.
The firefighters were on their way to the Box Canyon Fire in Utah.
The crash took place at approximately 3:00 p.m. near the intersection of I-35W and 95th Avenue in Blaine. The truck carrying the firefighters drifted off the right shoulder, struck the median cable barriers and rolled.
The driver, identified as Michael Allen Johnson, 28, of Baraga, Mich. told police he believed he fell asleep behind the wheel and woke up to one of the passengers yelling at him as the truck veered off the road.
Johnson said he attempted to gain control of the vehicle, but it crashed into the median barrier.
Johnson told police he had been awake for nearly 28 hours when the crash occurred. He also admitted to smoking marijuana that morning and doing cocaine two days earlier.
Law enforcement officials say Johnson appeared impaired and was acting combative at the scene of the accident.
23-year-old James “Kimmy” Shelifoe Jr. and 25-year-old Alan “AJ” Swartz, both of Baraga, were killed in the crash. The other five passengers were taken to local hospitals, but all are expected to recover.
The crew was part of a three-vehicle convoy traveling from Michigan’s Upper Peninsula to Utah to help fight the Box Canyon Fire. The firefighters were members of the Beartown Firefighting Crew in Baraga, Mich., according to the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community ( KBIC ).
The Beartown Firefighting Crew is a Type 2 hand crew co-sponsored by the KBIC and
the Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs ( BIA ).
The Keweeknaw Bay Indian Community says the deceased firefighters will return home to Michigan on Tuesday. They will depart Minneapolis at 6:30 a.m. and are expected to arrive in Baraga later that day.
Johnson is charged with two counts of criminal vehicular homicide for gross negligence. He will make his first court appearance in Anoka County on Tuesday morning.
—————————————————————————–
Rest in peace… James “Kimmy” Shelifoe Jr. and Alan “AJ” Swartz.
So… it looks like if you are in a position of ‘authority’ on a Wildland Crew and you are so exhausted that your judgement and ability to perform your job and make ‘safe’ decisions is impaired… and that impairment results in the DEATH of others who you are responsible for… you really CAN ( should / will ) be charged with ‘Homicide’.
Also… ( Lesson to Learn? )… time for better DRUG TESTING of ALL Wildland Firefighters?
It is pretty cool how life rolls…or rocks….and how unbelievable it is how we are all universally connected and as I have my foias in for personal clarity and spent gobs of funds and blm is to drop their fee to me tomorrow I took step back today and packed my hiking stuff and said goodbye to Sonny and he looked at me like maybe I was not serious and yet I closed my eyes and opened my heart. Done and time to….He looked at me and said “no just drained.” I have had extreme flank pain and I do not know how I have hiked this month or did my cardio exercises and as my eyes closed it was IN that moment I learned something about me. I known my husband since the 80s and as we had our elite crowd out for dinner we spent a moment with my husband than headed to the man cave and the whole time I think of my fire aftermath journey and I am trying to figure WHO is the best in the world fire behavior analyst that is NOT currently wrapped in contracted work with anyone and maybe send me their bid to spend time with me for three full 8 hour business days signing a confidentiality contract reviewing all I have on the fire before I do podcast phase…can you name any. World, I am NOT a conspiracy theorist…I see myself who jumbles thoughts and do not think them through at times before oral or written delivery…that I publicly and privately advocate for pure unredacted knowledge not what some feed out..the stuff that does not show…thank you to the people recently in my life because I know I am not alone and we are on right track….just have to ensure all details are properly thoroughly done but good to know where I am right now is just the start of what’s to come…Thank you…
Gary…thank you and wwtktt for everything lately and the shadowed people too…thank you. The shadowed people saw me ill…they saw it was tough but I just put one foot in front of the other and eventually the day was over and the size of my edema on lower extremities especially left foot…Whoah…please locals as well as loved ones of the men keep the faith…be better not bitter as one gmhs family member tries to share…September 21 is only one part that will be historical…man….ufc is on so good night…
Oh and Sonny thanks alot of people but I am grateful for Diane’s contribution lately…
God Bless and Keep you JOY. You are one of those special people.
Do you all know what I love about Bob Powers…he gets a label for this and that yet he knows who he is and remains here…he also will get justice as well as Jim Roth and so many other fallen…when the truth happens it will not be YHF…it will be BETTER and most healing and I mean MOST healing for Bob Powers and always World be assured I never keep fire information on any cell or pc or at his cabin or my home…at no time do we carry the details on us but we know the RIGHT Folks have it. I told you a few years back I figured this out but such a relief God led us to an entity that can physically support all and I mean all we ever sajd about our times on both fires. Some try to sway or say are you sure or mar me purity wise…I am happy. One couple said I hope you are financially taken care of when this is all done. When I was a kid I did odd jobs for folks for free and I have never changed…nothing odder than trailing with my hiking pal Sonny and this recent visit the guy was to spend a little time here but he stayed alot longer stating anyone who wants to know the fire need to spend the time with us and my first thought when he said it was not anyone because I know Jerry P. came and I really never thought that family of all would have a disconnect from us…someone had to be in their ears. I dreamnt of Donut last night….he was just thinking like hey for my life history give me some slack…I got a daughter…Im one of the grunts…we like time and half days as much as the big shots like making billions…
For morality and humanity I stay with this…
When i was throwing up on tbe trail all the men thought…oh no…that was jt…end of hike…but kept plotting on..throw up intense than one foot in front of the other so it can be done with bad health too and so Bob me staying at it js not just for the locals and 19..it js for you too…truth will be..and dont change because gary or wwtktt say what they do because the details would not shock gary but he would ponder his thoughts maybe before speaking…which i do think gary does…again world when the time arrives I want no monies…we all hit the same dirt in the end so thats enough for me and God has my plans…
?
I like your smile Diane…
keep that kind of energy up.
I do not know where you came from but you ask the right questions…and I like that.
I passed directly to 100 people and 22 on doors or car windshields or bulletin boards the flyer to go to the appeals case—I cannot tell you HOW MANY are in serious NEED right now or poor health…it is sad and it hurts me to listen to some who are like me that are not pharmaceutical folks now has a drug store- I also mailed one day 80 people locally than next day 5 more so I have now alerted about the case since I do not do social media I did my part to let people know if they are disabled or need a ride—how to make sure to get them there. Over 200 people KNOW about it IN PERSON…let’s keep the word fresh and going…3 weeks away-
Are there agencies in place such as Red Cross,etc. that are monitoring these Yarnell and congress residents to provide care and support this long after the fire?
Followup…
Minnesota does NOT have the “death penalty”… but they do have LWOP ( Life Without Parole ) for ‘murder’ convictions.
So Wildland Firefighter Michael Allen Johnson of the BIA Type 2 “Beartown” crew cannot be sentenced to death for killing his crewmates.
Minnesota abolished the death penalty way back in 1911 after a botched hanging.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Williams_%28murderer%29
—————————————————————————–
On 13 February 1906, Williams was to be executed in the basement of the Ramsey County Jail in Saint Paul. Unfortunately, the rope that was being used to hang him proved to be too long. When Williams hit the floor after dropping through the trap door of the gallows, three police officers had to hold his body up by the rope for over 14 minutes, until he finally died of strangulation.
Williams’s botched execution was used by opponents of the death penalty in Minnesota to argue that capital punishment should be abolished in the state. Minnesota abolished the death penalty in 1911, and since then it has never been reinstated.
——————————————————————————
Here is an online copy of the actual ‘criminal complaint’ filed against Wildland Firefighter and BIA ‘Beartown’ Type 2 crewmember Michael Allen Johnson…
https://bringmethenews.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/20160829_johnson-firefighter-michigan-crash-complaint.pdf
Followup…
Apparently ALL THREE of these convoyed ‘vehicles’ belonging to this BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Wildland Firefighting crew were HAULING ASS and breaking the speed limit ( big time ) at the time of the fatal accident.
From the ‘criminal complaint’…
—————————————————————
Statements were obtained from various witnesses traveling on Highway 35W at the time of the crash.
One witness described driving southbound on Highway 35W and seeing the three fire truck vehicles approaching him at a high rate of speed.
The witness moved to the right lane of traffic to allow the vehicles to passhim.
The witness estimated the vehicles to be traveling approximately 80 to 90 mph in a 70 mph zone.
After the third vehicle passed, the witness observed the third vehicle swerve into the right lane of traffic approximately three times. The vehicle then swerved again traveling across the lane of traffic onto the right side of the roadway.
The vehicle attempted to correct itself but traveled back across the highway ultimately crashing into the barrier on the left.
The box separated from the cab and rolled several times.
Another witness described contacting 911 before the crash out of concern of the driving conduct of the vehicle.
This witness called 911 back after observing the crash and provided consistent details regarding the accident.
—————————————————————-
**
** OTHER ‘BEARTOWN’ WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS ARRESTED
** AFTER THE FATAL ACCIDENT?
A very strange ‘video’ has been posted ( publicly ) to YouTube.
It shows an entire Crew Carrier full of “Beartown” Wildland Firefighters with ‘zip ties’ on their wrists and forced to sit on the ground behind their “Beartown” Crew Carrier… in a gas station parking lot… with police everywhere.
The person who shot this video says she took it shortly AFTER the ‘fatal accident’ where two of the “Beartown” BIA Type 2 crewmembers had been killed on August 27, near Blaine, Minnesota.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwIzI2F2xXA&app=desktop
From the ‘description’ supplied for this video…
————————————————————————————-
Posted to YouTube by: Lily Blessed
Bear Town (Michigan) Firefighters being detained in Bloomington Minnesota….. No idea why.
Published on Aug 27, 2016
I visited SA on 98th and Old Shakopee Road Yesterday and came upon this scene. I decided to record because it just looked so odd….. 9 firefighters with zip ties on their wrists sitting next to their truck. This morning, I found an article saying that earlier they were in an accident in Minnesota, and 2 of their crew members were sadly killed. But, this truck does not look damaged at all…. Very confusing.
————————————————————————————-
‘Old Shakopee Road’ is right outside of Bloomington, Minnesota and not that far from where the fatal accident took place.
This might be a case where the other ‘Beartown’ Crew Carrier that was NOT involved in the fatal accident was allowed to go on its way… but as soon as he police learned that the driver of the Crew Carrier that rolled over and killed those two ‘Beartown’ firefighters was admitting to ‘drug use’… an APB might have gone out to STOP the ‘other’ ‘Beartown’ Crew Carrier and ‘detain’ the rest of the crew for questioning.
Whatever is going on here ( in this video )… there is no question that it’s one of these BIA Wildland Type 2 “Beartown” Crew Carriers and all the firefighters have been ‘zip-tied’ and told to sit on the ground.
In the ‘comments’ section for the video above ( which has already been viewed THOUSANDS of times now )… the woman who posted it verifies that she took HER video around 6 PM… about 3 hours AFTER the fatal accident involving the OTHER “Beartown” Crew Carrier.
Her ‘comment’ also now suggests the police WERE ‘looking for drugs’ in the possession of that other half of the BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Crew.
—————————————————————————-
Comment by: Lily Blessed
What I don’t understand is why this happened…… The accident was shortly after 3pm, I took this video a little after 6pm. I don’t know what they would all be placed in zip ties….. The police were also going through something on the trunk of their squad car, wearing purple rubber gloves. Very odd scene. Then, finding out about the accident today….. Made me very confused!
—————————————————————————-
And now there is THIS ‘weird’ comment being left on that video of the BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Wildland Crew all ‘zip-tied’ outside their carrier.
This person seems to be claiming they were THERE, and part of the ‘crew’… and that the reason they were all ‘zip-tied’ is because the police didn’t know that the crew did not know they had lost 2 of their own yet… and the police were worried they all might get ‘aggressive’… or something.
——————————————————————
Comment by: Jesse Ekdahl
Just to clear the air, this is the 2nd crew along with the lead truck. In the defense of the crew and the police officers, the firefighters were restrained because the police didn’t know the crew didn’t know that lives were taken. The police were worried that we would act in aggression’.
——————————————————————
WTF?
It is still MUCH more likely that the police now had PCRTB ( Probably Cause Reason to Believe ) that there were DRUGS onboard that other BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Crew Carrier… and that is why they stopped it ( and zip-tied the crew ). To SEARCH the carrier… AND the Crew.
Followup…
It’s also ‘not credible’ that upwards of 3 hours had gone by… and this other BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Wildland Crew Carrier and its occupants would not have already been aware of both the accident and the fatalities with the ‘other’ Crew Carrier’ ( Since they were all in a convoy and were all HAULING ASS when the accident took place ).
**
** SECOND VIDEO SHOWING ‘ZIP-TIED’ BEARTOWN WFFs…
Here is ANOTHER video which shows those BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Wildland Firefighters all ‘zip-tied’ and being forced to sit on a curb outside their Crew Carrier while being ‘questioned’ by police.
From TV station WCCO – CBS – Minnesota.
PUBLIC Video Title: Driver Charged In Crash That Killed 2 Firefighters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsR4eoY_tgU
At +1:27 into this video is ‘new’ video footage of those ‘zip-tied’ Wildland Firefighters and the narrations covering that video footage says…
————————————————————————–
Two hours AFTER the crash… a SECOND “Beartown” truck carrying nine more
firefighters was stopped in Bloomington, their hands restrained behind their backs.
They sat along a curb, individually questioned, and let on their way.
————————————————————————–
It depicts the same scene as the other video posted above…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwIzI2F2xXA&app=desktop
So ( according to station WCCO ), while these other BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Wildland Firefighters WERE detained, zip-tied, and questioned by police… none of them were ‘arrested’.
IANAL ( I Am Not A Lawyer )… but since when are the police actually ALLOWED to handcuff ( zip-tie ) people ( anyone ) and DETAIN THEM on the side of the road… without actually CHARGING them with anything first?
If that is now LEGAL… then we ALL need to ‘wake up and start paying attention’.
** WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER MICHAEL ALLEN JOHNSON
** WAS DENIED AN ATTORNEY, AFTER REQUESTING ONE
This whole thing just gets ‘weirder’ by the minute.
BIA ‘Beartown’ Type 2 crewmember Michael Allen Johnson was ‘arraigned’
this morning ( in Minnesota ) on those TWO charges of ‘vehicular HOMICIDE’.
But the ‘Associated Press’ is now reporting that he ( Johnson ) was
DENIED AN ATTORNEY during this ‘arraignment’.
The San Diego Union-Tribune ( Associated Press Article )
Bodies of 2 firefighters returning to Michigan
Published: 12:07 p.m. Aug. 30, 2016 – By The Associated Press
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/aug/30/bodies-of-2-firefighters-returning-to-michigan/
———————————————————————-
MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — The bodies of two firefighters killed in a crash on a Minnesota interstate are being returned to their home state of Michigan.
A procession of vehicles left a south Minneapolis funeral home early Tuesday. Firefighters from Minnesota’s Fire Service Foundation were escorting the bodies of James Shelifoe Jr. and Alan Swartz back to the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community, where they served as Beartown firefighters based in Baraga on Michigan’s Upper Peninsula.
Seven other firefighters were hurt when their truck crashed Saturday on Interstate 35W in the Minneapolis suburb of Blaine. They include Michael Johnson, the firefighter behind the wheel of the truck. Johnson has been charged with two felony counts of criminal vehicular homicide. Unconditional bail was set at $250,000, and his request for a public defender was denied Tuesday.
———————————————————————-
“Unconditional bail was set at $250,000, and HIS REQUEST for a public defender was DENIED.”
Between this and the ‘detained’ and ‘zip-tied’ firefighters on the side of the road ( without even charging them with anything )… someone wanna tell me what the fuck is going in Minnesota?
Did Minnestoa ‘secede from the United States’ recently and the people so obssessed with just waiting to record the next stupid thing out of Donald Trump’s mouth just ‘missed it’?
Just in case anyone has forgotten… here are your ‘Miranda Rights’ as guaranteed
by the 5th and 6th ammendments to the US Constitution…
————————————————————————-
“You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the RIGHT to an ATTORNEY. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be PROVIDED for you.”
————————————————————————-
And also just in case anyone has forgotten… here are your ‘6th ammendment’ rights
as guaranteed by the US Constitution since 1789… including the ‘right to legal
counsel’ ( even if you can’t afford one )…
————————————————————————-
“In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
————————————————————————-
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right… to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.”
You haven’t been in Court Much Have You??????
Arraignments are to notify you of the charges and notify you of your rights to Trial and Defense. Must be done within 48 Hours.
For a judge to Appoint a Public Defender there has to be proof of Income
And ability to secure a private Attorney.
This Person has a job and income so he must show cause that he can not afford an Attorney then one will be appointed.
Reply to Bob Powers post on August 31, 2016 at 7:11 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> You haven’t been in Court Much Have You??????
You’d be surprised.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Arraignments are to notify you of the charges and
>> notify you of your rights to Trial and Defense.
AND you have a RIGHT to have legal counsel present at that ‘arraignment’… because this is also where BOND is set ( or, perhaps, denied )… and no one can expect someone who isn’t familiar with the courts to know all the ins and outs there.
Your ‘right to an attorney’ is part of ‘Miranda’… and the moment you are ‘read your rights’… you can/should do two things.
1. Not say anything to anyone BUT your ‘legal counsel’ ( not the police, not anyone but someone who is on YOUR side ).
2. Immediately request to speak with an attorney. If you don’t have one, or even if you do but there isn’t time for him/her to get to where you are… then a PUBLIC DEFENDER is required to be made available to you.
Even if you KNOW you won’t eventually ‘qualify’ for a PUBIC DEFENDER in the long run… you STILL have the right to request that the ‘arraignment’ itself be ‘postponed’ until your regular lawyer can get to where you are… or you have the time to hire one to attend the arraignment with you.
You CANNOT be flat-out DENIED access to a PUBLIC DEFENDER until the COURT itself has done a proper ‘Financial Analysis’ ( which also follows its own codified procedures ) and determined that you are not ‘eligible’ for one.
Even Minnesota LAW says this.
MINNESOTA STATUTE 611.17 – FINANCIAL INQUIRY
https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=611.17
611.17 FINANCIAL INQUIRY; STATEMENTS; CO-PAYMENT; STANDARDS FOR DISTRICT PUBLIC DEFENSE ELIGIBILITY.
“Upon a request for the appointment of counsel, the court shall make an appropriate determination of financial eligibility under paragraph (a) of the applicant…”
This Minnesota LAW also says…
“The applicant shall be under a continuing duty WHILE represented by a public defender to disclose any changes in the applicant’s financial circumstances. The state public defender shall furnish appropriate forms for the financial statements, which must be used by the district courts throughout the state.
So… even in Minnesota… you are ENTITLED to the counsel of a PUBLIC DEFENDER for the ENTIRE process of even ‘determining’ if you are ALLOWED to have a ‘Court-appointed’ PUBLIC DEFENDER.
You cannot be DENIED access to ‘Counsel’ at ANY point in the ‘proceedings’ ( from arrest, through arraignment, and on into initial pre-trial hearings ) if this OFFICIAL “Determination of Financial Status” has NOT been ‘completed’.
We don’t know the full circumstances here with regards to what just went on with this Michael Allen Johnson guy.
It sounds like he did NOT have the good sense to just “keep his mouth shut” and NOT speak to the police without being represented by counsel… and that he also did NOT know that he had every right to do that… and every right to ASK for an ‘attorney’ the moment they were reading him his Miranda.
>> Bob Power said…
>>
>> Must be done within 48 Hours.
Not necessarily. Even before an arraignment, you can ask for a ‘delay’ even if it’s just in order to give your regular attorney ( if you have one ) time to get where you are and be the one standing beside you at your arraignment entering your ‘plea’ for you… AND then handling the BOND issues with the Judge.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> For a judge to Appoint a Public Defender there
>> has to be proof of Income And ability to secure a
>> private Attorney.
Yes… but I’m not just talking about the ‘long run’… and whether you will eventually go all the way to trial with a court-appointed public defender.
Even Minnesota LAW says you can/should be consulting with a PUBLIC DEFENDER *while* this ‘Financial Evaluation’ is being made.
From the same Minnesota ‘Financial Inuiry’ law up above…
——————————————————————-
An inquiry to determine financial eligibility of a defendant for the appointment of the district public defender shall be made whenever possible PRIOR to the court appearance and by such persons as the court may direct. This inquiry may be combined with the prerelease investigation provided for in Minnesota Rule of Criminal Procedure 6.02, subdivision 3. In no case shall the district public defender be required to perform this inquiry or investigate the defendant’s assets or eligibility. The court has the sole duty to conduct a financial inquiry.
——————————————————————-
In no case shall the district public defender be required to perform this inquiry or investigate the defendant’s assets or eligibility. The court has the sole duty to conduct a financial inquiry.
In other words… even the PUBLIC DEFENDER ( which you are entitled to have access to the moment you request one ) isn’t even ALLOWED to conduct the ‘Financial Inquiry’ itself. It is totally up to the COURT to do that and you are entitled to still have access to a PUBLIC DEFENDER until the COURT has completed this ‘official’ ‘Financial Inquiry’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> This Person has a job and income so he must
>> show cause that he can not afford an Attorney
>> then one will be appointed.
See above. The LAW says it is the other way around.
It is the sole responsibility of the COURT to do this ‘Financial Inquiry’. The ‘defendant’ is required to ‘cooperate’… but the ‘onus’ is on the COURT to prove the ‘defendant’ does NOT qualify.
And until such time as the COURT completes this mandated ‘Financial Inquiry’… you STILL have the right to legal counsel even if just to guide you through this ‘Financial Inquiry’ process itself.
What we still don’t know is if Michael Allen Thompson was being DENIED access to legal counsel just to even get himself through his arraignment and BOND process… or if the Minnesota COURT had ALREADY done this ‘Financial Inquiry’ they are REQUIRED ( by LAW ) to do in order to DENY him public counsel.
It’s not likely that this Minnesota Court could have actually ( truly ) completed all the required steps of that ‘Financial Inquiry’ in just 48 hours.
Either way… it looks like this Michael Allen Johnson guy WAS allowed to ‘bond out’ ( even without benefit of counsel )… and his next Court pre-trial court appearance is on September 27th.
If there was anything ‘wonky’ regarding his ‘arraignment’… then whatever counsel he DOES have by September 27th can take that up with the Judge.
Normally a public defender is present for all Arraignments.
If the accused has an Attorney they are present if not the Public defender can represent for the arraignment and request the appointment discussion on Bail is set at a Bail hearing.
The bail is set at the Arraignment.
So yes and no a public defender may have been present for the hearing. The defendant can request one be appointed at the hearing. Based on the paper work they fill out prior to the Arraignment the Judge can deny or appoint.
No laws are violated by not having a Lawyer at the Arraignment..
We still don’t know the ‘full story’.
It SOUNDS like this Michael Allen Thompson guy did NOT ask to speak with a lawyer ( ANY lawyer ) as soon as he was arrested. He should have. He’s in a lot of trouble and he should have not ‘volunteered’ ANY information without the advice of counsel.
As for the ‘arraignment’… we don’t know if he even had a ‘public defender’ to consult with or represent him, even then.
But according to Minnesota Law, and THEIR own ‘rules’ regarding ‘Financial Inquiry’… if the Judge at that arraignment flat-out DENIED him access to a ‘public defender’…. without a FULL ‘Financial Inquiry’ having been completed yet… then that is ‘wonky’.
I really don’t think there’s any chance they ( that Minnesota COURT ) would have been able to do a FULL ‘Financial Inquiry’ as per their own LAWS ( copies of tax returns, etc. ) in just the 48 hours between his arrest and his arraignment.
Followup…
There is also the following from the actual MINNESOTA CRIMINAL PROCEDURE LAW regarding requiring the COURT ( not the defendant ) to perform a FULL “Financial Inquiry” before being able to DENY anyone a ‘public defender’…
https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/court_rules/rule.php?type=cr&id=5
————————————————————
Subd. 5.Partial Eligibility and Reimbursement.
The ability to pay part of the cost of adequate representation at any time while the charges are pending against a defendant must not preclude the appointment of the district public defender for the defendant. If the court, after finding the defendant eligible for district public defender services, determines that the defendant now has the ability to pay part of the costs, it may require a defendant to make partial payment as provided in Minnesota Statutes, section 611.20.
————————————————————
See the ‘implication’ there?
If you ASK for an ‘attorney’… then you MUST be ‘provided with one. If it is determined LATER that you are NOT actually ‘eligible’ for a public defender to take you all they way through your trial… then you MIGHT even be asked to ‘reimburse’ the court for some of the ‘legal services rendered’.
Again… direct quote from actual MINNESOTA LAW…
“The ability to pay part of the cost of adequate representation at ANY TIME while the charges are pending against a defendant MUST NOT preclude the appointment of the district public defender for the defendant.”
A Judge can’t just take a look at you and ‘think’ you can probably afford an attorney… and then just DENY you a PUBLIC DEFENDER based on his ‘assumptions’.
It HAS to be FULLY ( and legally ) determined that you are NOT ELIGIBLE before anyone can DENY you that.
And ( in the meantime, while that FULL ‘Financial Inquiry’ is taking place )… you MUST NOT be denied a ‘public defender’ if you want one.
But even in the case of determining whether someone is eligible for a long-term public defender… the determination is NOT just based on whether you are truly ‘indigent’ in the case where you have no job, and no address, and you eat your meals at the YMCA.
The term ‘indigent’ means whether or not there’s really any way in hell you will be able to afford a ‘proper defense’ against the charges being made against you.
Again… this is clearly stated in Minnesota’s own ‘Financial Inquiry’ LAW…
Minnesota Statutes
611.17 FINANCIAL INQUIRY; STATEMENTS; CO-PAYMENT; STANDARDS FOR DISTRICT PUBLIC DEFENSE ELIGIBILITY.
https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=611.17
————————————————–
(a) Each judicial district must screen requests for representation by the district public defender. A defendant is financially unable to obtain counsel if:
(2) the court determines that the defendant, through any combination of liquid assets and current income, would be unable to pay the reasonable costs charged by private counsel in that judicial district for a defense of the same matter.
————————————————–
“unable to pay the reasonable costs charged by private counsel in that judicial district for a defense of the same matter”
So it really does come down to what you actually CHARGED with… how COMPLICATED that ‘trial’ will be… and whether or not there really is any way in hell the person charged will be able to AFFORD that ‘defense’, give whatever the ‘going rate’ is being charged by ‘private counsel’.
If it’s a complicated FELONY TRIAL… the actual ‘costs’ to mount a ‘fair defense’ ( in today’s dollars ) could add up to HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.
If you add up every single asset and paycheck and any other possible access to money that a ‘defendant’ might have… and it still doesn’t come anywhere NEAR what it’s going to cost to mount an adequate ‘defense’ using PRIVATE attorneys…
…then that defendant qualifies as being ‘legally indigent’ with regards to whether or not they really are going to be able to AFFORD their own ‘defense’ against the charges.
And it has long since been determined that it would be ‘discrimination’ ( as in… only the RICH can get a fair trial ) to try and FORCE someone to mount a defense that ( in today’s dollars ) there is no way they can possibly afford.
So… enter stage left… a ‘public defender’.
And something tells me that if you add up every single penny sitting in this Michael Allen Johnson guy’s bank accounts, and whatever you can find under his couch cushions… AND you add in whatever ‘pay’ he was making as a member of a BIA Type 2 handcrew and whatever ‘real estate’ he might own is worth…
…then he *might* be able to ‘afford’ to properly DEFEND himself ( with private attorney’s and today’s ‘going rates’ ) against a simple ‘assault’ charge, or something…
…but as for being able to mount a ‘proper defense’ against TWO separate FELONY charges of VEHICULAR HOMICIDE?
I doubt it.
That’s not to say that someone or something ‘else’ might end up ‘kicking in’ her to help PAY for his defense… like some ‘help’ from the Indian Tribe OR some provisions for full payment of legal expenses coming from ‘Insurance Policies’ attached to the ‘tribe’ or the ‘vehicle’…
…but I’m just talking about the guy, himself, personally.
Something tells me HE ( himself, personally ) could still easily be found ‘legally indigent’ with regards to ever having a chance in hell of PAYING ( himself ) for a proper defense give the ‘going rate’ for competent criminal attorneys.
The fact still is that an Arraignment is just that.
You are notified of your charges and your rights and Bail is set.
at that point you can request a Public defender or state you have an Attorney.
The Public Defender can then be appointed after a review of the Financial ability of the Defendant.
I will state again an arraignment is a different thing.
You are ask if you understand your charges and your rights by the JUDGE, he then sets bail
At that point you can request a public Defender the judge can appoint then or deny and appoint latter based on the Ability to pay.
If his paper work showed he had sufficient income to hire a lawyer then the Judge would deny the request. at the Arraignment Hearing.
Felony $250,000 Bail is normally not discussed at the Arraignment but at a Hearing at a later date.
Misdemeanor’s can be argued for reduction at the Arraignment and a reduction or Release on own recognizances. to appear at subsequent court Hearings.
It is not uncommon for a defendant to not have a Lawyer at an Arraignment.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> At that point you can request a public
>> Defender the judge can appoint then or
>> deny and appoint latter based on the
>> Ability to pay.
According to Minnesota LAW ( see above )… a defendants ‘ability to pay for his own defense’ can ONLY be fully ascertained by the COURT doing a FULL ‘Financial Inquiry’ as spelled out in that LAW shown above.
And that LAW even says that is such a FULL ‘Financial Inquiry’ has NOT been completed… then a defendant should NOT be ‘denied access to a public defender’ at ‘any point in the proceedings until that FULL inquiry has been completed’.
So my original point still stands.
If that Judge flat-out DENIED Michael Allen Thomspon’s STATED REQUEST for a ‘public defender’ right there at his ‘arraignment’… and BEFORE the COURT had completed a FULL ‘Financial Inquiry’ ( according to their own LAW )… then something is ‘wonky’ there.
The LAW itself states that the DEFAULT is to GRANT ( not DENY ) the defendant a ‘public defender’ until such time as it IS determined ( via a FULL Inquiry ) if he will be eligible for a ‘public defender’ going all the way to trial.
Their own LAW even states that the defendant is supposed to have access to a ‘public defender’ to even just ‘guide’ them through the ‘Financial Inquiry’ itself.
I am NOT trying to ‘defend’ this Mr. Michael Allen Thompson… OR his actions.
I’m just pointing out that on the surface… what the ‘Associated Press’ article says happened at his ‘arraignment’ seems a little ‘wonky’.
Regardless of the ‘arraignment’ issues… what’s your ‘opinion’ about the other Crew Carrier being ‘stopped’ and those firefighters ‘zip-tied’ and forced to sit on a curb… WITHOUT having been CHARGED with anything?
ON THE SERFACE???
THE JUDGE DOSE NOT KNOW THE LAW ????
I have no clew and neither do you on the reasons the crew was detained?
You do not have to charge any one to detain them. You can tell them they are being cuffed until you have made all the inquires necessary.
(they are not under arrest at this time)
You are hand cuffing them for your protection and theirs.
You have suspicion to believe______________
What ever Drugs ETC.
WERE ANY ARRESTED????
Or were they all released.
Again I nor you at this time have any Idea.
Was this a BIA funded crew?
Was this a Contract crew from the reservation?
It could make a big difference if they are Government Employees or Pickup Contract FF. from the Reservation.
Can’t see why he does not get the honors like the GMHS leaders–after all he was headed to go to work fighting a wild land fire. doing what wild land fire fighters do–He might have been the one least hung over, one with least lack of sleep, and best choice to drive the crew. He killed his cohorts using bad judgement to be a driver to be sure–but killing two is not as bad as killing 19.
Reply to Charlie post on August 30, 2016 at 4:24 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> He might have been the one least hung over, one with least lack
>> of sleep, and best choice to drive the crew.
Now there’s a ‘disturbing’ thought…. because that might actually be TRUE.
For people whose first instinct is to say… “if that Firefighter was SO tired… and/or so ‘messed up’… then why wasn’t someone else driving?”… the answer actually *might* be that the rest of the crew was even MORE “tired and/or messed up”, and he really was the one that was in the “best shape” to be driving out of ALL of them.
As of this moment… I can find NO evidence that the US Bureau of Indian Affairs ( BIA )… or any OTHER ‘responsible agency’… has initiated any ‘official investigation’ into this incident that has left TWO BIA Wildland Firefighters dead and at least 5 others in the hospital.
I am seeing NO ’24 hour report’ or ‘delegation of authority’ or even any ‘investigation announcement’ letters from ANY ‘Wildland Agency’ with regards to this terrible accident involving ‘Wildland Firefighters’.
One of the key questions here is if that Wildland Firefighter who was driving hadn’t slept for more than 24 hours… was that HIS fault… or had he been REQUIRED to be putting in that kind of brutal work schedule prior to this incident?
Was this BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Wildland Firefighting unit ‘on the clock’ for all those hours prior to this accident… with absolutely NO observation of the required 2:1 work/rest ratio?
If there does NOT end up either a SAIT or a CRP or any other ‘official’ Agency investigation into the deaths of these two BIA Wildland Firefighters… then obviously the question will be… “Why NOT?”.
First—Driving a vehicle with that many passengers requires a Equivalent of a Bus License. How many had that License is the first question. was he the first Driver or Second Driver?
Second —Federal Government also requires 8Hrs. driving and rest time per operator, The Crew Boss should be monitoring that not each Driver.
Third — This Accident was on a public Road and Subject to the Investigation of the State Police. Not the Federal Agency.
Forth —- While in Travel Status you are on the Payroll. Even if you are ridding along and sleeping you are in travel Statius. To and from work assignment.
To my Knowledge this type of accident (Vehicle on a Highway) dose not
require a SAIT or a CRP. The State Highway Patrol or other Law Enforcement Agency dose the investigation and Sites on State Law.
That is acceptable to the Government as an official investigation.
Also The Government carries Vehicle insurance like any other Vehicle owner.
The Driver is Insured for any Liability. When someone dies it usually is sited as Manslaughter not intentional. Bail can be reduced or waived at another hearing when the Defendant has their Lawyer. The Court system moves at its own time frames.
This is another reason the Federal Government should do Drug testing like most Law enforcement agencies do.
The Blood tests will show any concentration of Meth or Marijuana.
They both stay in the blood for up to 30 days.
Reply to Bob Powers post on August 31, 2016 at 7:39 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> First—Driving a vehicle with that many passengers
>> requires a Equivalent of a Bus License.
Nope. ( Not according to NIFC ‘Interagency Standards’, anyway ).
Crew Carriers only usually carry 9-10 people… and in the case in question.
There DOES come a point when you need what is called a ‘commercial operator’s license’, but the NIFC ‘Interagency Standards’ say you don’t need one until you are driving more than 16 ( Sixteen ) people at the same time.
In the case in question… there were only 9 people in that Crew Carrier that was being driven by “Beartown” Firefighter Michael Allen Johnson ( including him ).
The actual US Department of the Interior ( USDI or just DOI ) Bureau of Indian Affairs ( BIA ) Wildland Fire Operations manual is here…
BIA Wildland Fire & Aviation Program Management & Operations Guide
http://www.indianaffairs.gov/nifc/operations/bluebook/index.htm
See “Chapter 8 – Safety and Risk Management”
Then scroll down to the “Motor Vehicle Operation Policy” section
From that section…
———————————————————
Motor Vehicle Operation Policy
All individuals operating a motor vehicle in performance of duties in support of the BIA, must comply with the requirement of the BIA Motor Vehicle policy requirements 5 CFR 930, and 485 DM 16. Regional Directors,
Agency Superintendents, and FMO’s will be responsible for ensuring full compliance, including safe operation of motor vehicles as well as immediate response to issues of non-compliance. All motor vehicle operators will be required to possess a current Government Motor Vehicle Operators Identification Card.
Potential drivers annually must complete GSA form 3607
———————————————————
So here is what ( according to just the blurb above from BIA’s own Wildland Operations Manual ) you ARE supposed to have…
The VEHICLE must comply with…
BIA Motor Vehicle policy requirements 5 CFR 930, and 485 DM 16.
The OPERATOR of any BIA vehicle must have…
– A current Government Motor Vehicle Operators Identification Card.
– Annually must complete GSA form 3607.
So the ‘key’ is this Government Motor Vehicle Operators Identification Card.
Form: OF-346
U.S. Government Motor Vehicle Operator’s Identification Card.
Basically… anyone can get one of those. Where the ‘rubber meets the road’ is when it comes to the ‘Interagency Standards’ and what is REQUIRED above and beyond that easily-obtaineable ‘Government Vehicle Operator ID Card’.
Here is what ‘Interagency Standards’ say…
2016 Interagency Standards for Fire and Fire Aviation Operations
Department of the Interior ( Bureau of Indian Affairs – BIA )
Bureau of Land Management
National Park Service
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Department of Agriculture ( U.S. Forest Service )
https://www.nifc.gov/PUBLICATIONS/redbook/2016/RedBookAll.pdf
———————————————————–
2012 wording…
Employees operating any motor vehicle with a GVWR of 26,000 pounds or more, towing a vehicle 10,000 pounds GVWR or more, hauling hazardous material requiring the vehicle to be placarded, or transporting 16 or more persons (including the driver) must possess a valid Commercial Drivers License (CDL) with all applicable endorsements.
—————————————————————
2016 wording…
SAFETY AND RISK MANAGEMENT CHAPTER 7
Release Date: January 2016
Employees operating a motor vehicle that meets any of the following criteria must possess a valid Commercial Driver’s License (CDL) with all of the applicable endorsements:
– Has a gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 26,001 pounds or more, whichever is greater, inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of more than
10,000 pounds, whichever is greater; or
– Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of 26,001 pounds or more, whichever is greater; or
– Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or
– Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials.
– Hazardous materials means any material that has been designated as hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR part 172 or any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in CFR part 7
———————————————————
So according to ‘Interagency Standards’ ( which cover BIA as well as all other NIFC participating agencies… from 2012 until the present ) you don’t need a ‘CDL’ ( Commercial Driver’s License ) until you are ‘driving’ 16 or more people at once ( including yourself ) in any particular vehicle.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> How many had that License is the first question. was he the
>> first Driver or Second Driver?
According to Interagency Standards ( see above )… no one needs ‘that license’ you are thinking of ( commercial drivers license ) unless they are ever driving 16 or more people at a time.
Crew Carriers usually only have up to 10 people in them… so ( according to NIFC Standards ), no one ever driving a ‘Crew Carrier’ needs any kind of ‘special’ license at all, other than a valid State Driver’s License and a valid ‘Government Vehicle Operator ID Card’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Second —Federal Government also requires 8Hrs. driving
>> and rest time per operator.
Nope. The ‘8 hour’ thing is there for ‘rest time before driving’… but actual ‘drive time’ can be up to 10 hours ( or MORE if you just say it’s an ’emergency’ ).
From PDF page 163, in the ‘Safety and Risk Management Chapter 7 of the current 2016 Interagency Standards for Fire and Fire Aviation Operations…
———————————————————
No driver will drive more than 10 hours (behind the wheel) within any duty-day.
– Multiple drivers in a single vehicle may drive up to the duty-day limitation provided no driver exceeds the individual driving (behind the wheel) time limitation of 10 hours.
– A driver shall drive only if they have had at least 8 consecutive hours off duty before beginning a shift.
Exception to the minimum off-duty hour requirement is allowed when essential to:
Accomplish immediate and critical suppression objectives.
Address immediate and critical firefighter or public safety issues.
————————————————————
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Third — This Accident was on a public Road and Subject
>> to the Investigation of the State Police. Not the Federal Agency.
Wrong. See below.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Forth —- While in Travel Status you are on the Payroll.
>> Even if you are ridding along and sleeping you are in
>> travel Statius. To and from work assignment.
Yes. Which means you ARE “on the job”… riding in a ‘Government’ vehicle. Fatal accidents involving Government vehicles and/or ‘Government employees’ are REQUIRED to be ‘investigated’ by the Agency responsible for both.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> To my Knowledge this type of accident (Vehicle on a
>> Highway) dose not require a SAIT or a CRP.
Yes. It does. See below.
Also… that similar ‘rollover’ accident this summer which killed 2 BLM FFs who were ‘on the clock’ and driving a BLM vehicle IS being ‘investigated’ with a full blown SAIT. Results have not been published yet.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The State Highway Patrol or other Law Enforcement Agency
>> dose the investigation and Sites on State Law.
>> That is acceptable to the Government as an official investigation.
Nope. Not according to the actual ‘Operations Manuals’ for agencies like US Forestry, Bureau of Land Management, National Park Service, Bureau of Indian Affairs, etc. etc. They each have their OWN ‘requirements’ to investigate any/all fatal accidents involving their vehicles and/or employees.
See more about this down below.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Also The Government carries Vehicle insurance like any other
>> Vehicle owner. The Driver is Insured for any Liability. When
>> someone dies it usually is sited as Manslaughter not intentional.
BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Crewman Michael Allen Johnson has already been officially CHARGED… and the ‘charges’ are very specific.
TWO ( separate ) ‘counts’ of “Criminal Vehicular Homicide (Gross Negligence)”.
The “Gross Negligence” part is is already there in the charges themselves, which makes this pretty damn serious. The ‘Gross Negligence’ part is pretty much the same as the ‘Depraved Indifference’ aspect that *could* be applied of this really was an actual ‘manslaughter’ charge.
From the actual ‘charges’ filed by Tony Palumbo, Prosecutor for Anoka County, Minnesota, which has jurisdiction in this case…
Charge: Criminal Vehicular Homicide (Gross Negligence)
Minnesota Statute: 609.2112.1(a)(1)
Maximum Sentence: 0-10 Years and/or $6,000.00 – $20,000.00
Offense Level: Felony
So regardless of the ‘Homicide’ reference in the charge itself… the maximum sentence in Minnesota for this particular charge would be 10 years in prison and a $20,000 fine for EACH COUNT.
Since there are TWO counts… then if they really want to ‘throw the book’ at this guy… he could be sentenced to TWO ( sequential ) 10 year prison terms and $40,000 in fines. ( 20 years in prison an $40,000 fine ).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Bail can be reduced or waived at another
>> hearing when the Defendant has their Lawyer.
That’s correct. Next ‘court appearance’ for Michael Allen Johnson is September 27, 2016.
If anything was ‘wonky’ regarding Mr. Johnson’s ‘arrest’… ‘interrogation’… and/or ‘arraignment’… then ( hopefully ) he will have counsel by then and they can take it up with the Judge.
** AGENCY INVESTIGATION REQUIRED ( BUT NOT HAPPENING? )
Due to the length of this post ( and number of links already present )… the explanation of why an ‘Agency Investigation’ seems REQUIRED will be in the next ‘Reply’…
** ‘ON THE CLOCK’ AGENCY VEHICLE ROLLOVER FATALITIES
** REQUIRE A ‘SPECIAL ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION’
Less than 2 months ago, TWO ‘Bureau of Land Management’ ( BLM ) employees were killed in a single-vehicle ‘rollover’ accident that took place in Nevada.
These BLM firefighters were ‘in transit’ ( coming BACK from an assignment ), but were still ‘on the clock’ and drving an ‘Agency’ vehicle.
That meets the ‘criteria’ for a ‘Special Accident Investigation’ as established in even the 2016 ‘Interagency Standards Guide’, and such an Agency ‘Investigation’ was IMMEDIATELY started upon news of the ‘rollover’ fatalities.
The Reno Gazette-Journal – RENO, Nevada
UPDATE: Names of BLM firefighters killed in crash released
Published: 5 a.m. PDT July 12, 2016 – Jose Olivares, RGJ
http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2016/07/11/blm-firefighters-killed-nevada-highway-crash/86938496/
From that article…
—————————————————————–
The Nevada Highway Patrol has identified the fatalities of the crash as Jacob Omalley, 27, the driver, and Will Hawkins, 22, the right-front passenger. Both are from Winnemucca. Middle-seat passenger Zachery McElroy, 23, from Reno, sustained non-life threatening injuries and was transported to Renown Regional Medical Center via Care Flight. He is in stable condition, according to a BLM news release.
Original post:
A procession was held Monday as the bodies of two BLM firefighters were escorted from Winnemucca to Reno.
Nevada Highway Patrol and local agencies formed a procession ending at the corner of East Second Street and Kirman Avenue.
The two died in a Sunday evening crash about 37 miles north of Winnemucca. NHP said tire failure may have caused the crash. Trooper Jim Stewart said the three firefighters were the only ones in the vehicle when it crashed Sunday near the junction of State Highway 140 and U.S. 95.
They were returning from looking for lightning-sparked wildfires.
The driver was among the two deaths. The injured firefighter was flown by helicopter to a Reno hospital, where he’s in stable condition.
BLM spokesman Rudy Evenson says an AGENCY CRASH INVESTIGATION TEAM is on the way to the area.
More detail will be posted as it becomes available.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
———————————————————-
“BLM spokesman Rudy Evenson says an AGENCY CRASH INVESTIGATION TEAM is on the way to the area.”
Another article about this ‘rollover’ accident which says speicfically that a Serious Accident Investigation Team ( SAIT ) was immediately put together to investigate these ‘rollover’ fatalities…
BLM Discusses Fatal Accident
Published: JUly 14, 2016 7:34 AM – By Steven Field
http://www.buckaroonews.com/2016/07/blm-discusses-fatal-accident/
From that article…
———————————————————
Jessica Gardetto, Public Affair Specialist for the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) explains that on July 10th, a BLM Winnemucca District Engine Crew had just finished doing a routine check for fires after lighting, when they were involved in a single vehicle accident.
The crew were returning to Winnemucca from Denio in a Unimog, which is a large wildland fire engine. Nevada Highway Patrol lists the accident as a single vehicle accident due to tire failure.
At this time the BLM is conducting its own investigation, through their Serious Accident Investigation Team, which is still on going.
One of the reasons for the additional investigation is to help accidents like this from happening in the future.
———————————————————–
“BLM is conducting its OWN INVESTIGATION, through their Serious Accident Investigation Team ( SAIT ), which is still on going. One of the REASONS for the ADDITIONAL INVESTIGATION is to help accidents like this from happening in the FUTURE.”
Worth repeating…
“One of the REASONS for the ADDITIONAL INVESTIGATION is to help accidents like this from happening in the FUTURE.”
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…
And here is BLM’s own ‘press release’ immediately following the July ‘rollover fatalities’ involving its own personnel and its own vehicle.
It clearly states this ‘rollover accident’ was automatically initiating a full “Serious Accident Investigation Team”…
US Department of the Interior ( USDI )
Bureau of Land Management ( BLM )
NEWS RELEASE
BLM News Release No. WDO 2016-023
Memorial Service for Fallen Firefighters Jacob O’Malley and Will Hawkins to be
Held in Winnemucca on Tuesday, July 19th
Published: 07/14/16
Contacts:
Contacts: Jessica Gardetto, 208-957-1355, jdgardetto (at) blm.gov
http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/info/newsroom/2016/july/winnemucca_memorial.html
—————————————————————–
Winnemucca, Nev. – Memorial services will be held for BLM wildland firefighters Jacob O’Malley and Will Hawkins who lost their lives in a single-vehicle accident July 10 on Nevada State Route 140.
The services will take place at the Winnemucca Events Complex Exhibit Hall from 1:00 – 4:00 p.m. on Tuesday, July 19, in Winnemucca, Nevada.
The BLM firefighters were returning from duty in the Denio area on their way back to Winnemucca when the accident occurred at about 5:20 p.m. Sunday evening. Jacob, 27, and Will, 22, were killed in the rollover accident.
Their coworker, Zachery McElroy, 23, was flown to Renown Medical Center in Reno, where he was treated and released Tuesday afternoon.
The BLM fire crew was returning from a routine patrol looking for lightning fires in the area when the accident occurred.
The two men both resided in Winnemucca, though Jacob was from Lake Tahoe’s Zephyr Cove and Will was from Reno. The families of Jacob and Will have established private family memorial services in the Lake Tahoe and Reno areas, respectively.
“Everyone is invited to attend the Winnemucca services on Tuesday to honor Jacob and Will – two brave, hardworking firefighters who were dearly loved by their families and coworkers,” said BLM Nevada State Director John Ruhs.
The BLM deployed a Serious Accident Investigation Team ( SAIT ) to determine the accident cause and other information.
Winnemucca Events Complex
1000 Fairgrounds Road
Winnemucca, NV 89445
—————————————————————–
“The BLM deployed a Serious Accident Investigation Team ( SAIT ) to determine the accident cause and other information.”
And here is WHY the BLM ‘agency’ was REQUIRED to immediately put together a “Serious Accident Investigation Team” to do its own investigation of the rollover fatalities.
It’s because the 2016 ‘Interagency Standards’ document ( shared by all Federal Level Wildland Firefighting ‘Agencies’ including BLM, USFS, BIA, etc. ) REQUIRES it.
2016 Interagency Standards for Fire and Fire Aviation Operations
Department of the Interior ( Bureau of Indian Affairs – BIA )
Bureau of Land Management
National Park Service
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Department of Agriculture ( U.S. Forest Service )
https://www.nifc.gov/PUBLICATIONS/redbook/2016/RedBookAll.pdf
—————————————————————
Chapter 18 – REVIEWS AND INVESTIGATIONS
Distinct types of wildland fire incidents and accidents have specific investigation REQUIREMENTS.
Wildland Fire Incident and Accident Types and Definitions
Serious Wildland Fire Accident – An unplanned event or series of events that resulted in death, injury, occupational illness, or damage to or loss of equipment or property.
For wildland fire operations, a SERIOUS ACCIDENT involves ANY of the following:
– One or more fatalities;
– Three or more personnel who are inpatient hospitalized as a direct result of or in support of wildland fire operations;
– Property or equipment damage of $250,000 or more; and/or
– Consequences that the Designated Agency Safety and Health Official (DASHO) judges to warrant a Serious Accident Investigation
—————————————————————
The recent ‘rollover fatalities’ involving the Bureau of Indian Affairs sponsored “Beartown” Type 2 Crew is ( for all intents and purposes ) the SAME as what happened in Nevada back in July.
So why are we not ALREADY hearing that a SAIT is ‘on the job’ and investigating THOSE BIA related vehicle / personnel ‘rollover fatalities’?
The ‘Standards’ don’t say any participating Agency is allowed to just ‘pick and choose’ which ‘fatality accidents’ involving Agency equipment and personnel they will ‘investigate’… and which ones they won’t.
Doesn’t work that way.
Followup…
And even though the ‘Department of the Interior’ and its Wildland ‘Agencies’ ( National Park Service, Bureau of Indian Affairs, etc. ) all ‘adhere’ to the same NIFC ‘Standards’ shown above…
…if you actually ‘drill down’ on the ‘Bureau of Indian Affairs’ websites to their OWN ‘published’ Standards… you find the exact same thing with regards to WHEN they are REQUIRED to initiate a “Serious Accident Investigtion”.
Bureau of Indian Affairs
Wildland Fire Operations Manual
Chapter 17 – Reviews and Investigations
http://www.indianaffairs.gov/cs/groups/xnifc/documents/text/idc013077.pdf
PDF page 10 ( of 25 pages )
———————————————————-
Wildland Fire Incident/Accident Types and Definitions
Serious Accident Investigation ( SAI )
An unplanned event or series of events that resulted in death, injury,occupational illness, or damage to or loss of equipment or property.
A serious accident would involve any of the following:
– One or more fatalities;
– Three or more personnel who are inpatient hospitalized as a direct result of or in support of wildland fire operations;
– Property or equipment damage of $250,000 or more; and
– Consequences that the DASHO judges to warrant a Serious
Accident Investigation
———————————————–
There were TWO fatalities involve in last week’s ‘rollover’ of that Bureau of Indian Affairs “Beartown” Type 2 Crew Carrier, and at least 3 of the remaining crewmembers are STILL in the hospital.
But still no sign of any ‘investigation’.
They usually take the investigation report of the Police agency in evolved. If an accident happens on a Government road or close to the home base then the agency will respond and basically work with the responsible Law Enforcement agency’s investigation.
In other words they use the Law enforcement investigation as their main report if the Agency is not available immediately. Even then they are not fully trained or outfitted with the equipment that the State police have to investigate accidents.
I will state that the FS and BLM require a Commercial license for Eng. operators and for Crew Carriers regardless of number of passengers. BIA should be the same but what ever.
.
Of course they ‘use’ the local Law Enforcement ‘reports’ as ‘part’ of their ‘Agency investigation’.
But they ( the Agency involved ) is STILL supposed to do a SAIT ( or CRP ) of their own when there is at least 1 fatality and/or at least 3 FFs ‘admitted’ to the hospital.
This recent BIA Type 2 Crew ‘rollover’ is even WORSE than the BLM one in July.
In both cases… 2 Agency FFs KILLED… but the BIA Beartown rollover had MANY other ‘serious’ injuries and even now there are at least 3 of those surviving BIA crew members still in the hospital.
So where is the SAIT for this BIA ‘Beartown’ rollover… as there was ( immediately ) one for the July BIA rollover?
Whoops. Typo in that final ‘question’ above.
The ‘July, 2016’ rollover fatalities in Nevada was a BLM incident, not BIA.
The ‘question’ above should have been…
“So where is the SAIT for this BIA ‘Beartown’ rollover… as there was ( immediately ) one for the July BLM rollover?”
**
** JUDGE THAT WILL ‘PRESIDE’ OVER THE YARNELL PROPERTY DAMAGE ‘APPEAL’
** IS ON GOVERNOR DOUG DUCEY’S ‘SHORT LIST’ TO BE APPOINTED ( BY DUCEY )
** TO THE ARIZONA SUPREME COURT.
The “Presiding Judge’ for ‘Division 1’ of the Arizona Appellate Court, Judge Kent E. Katani, is the one who will ( supposedly ) be making the actual ‘decision’ with regards to the ‘appeal’ of the Yarnell Property Damage lawsuits… and the one ‘presiding’ over the ‘Oral Arguments’ that are ( finally ) going to take place for that ‘appeal’ this coming September 21, 2016.
What is interesting to NOTE, however, is that just a few weeks ago… it was ‘announced’ PUBLICLY that this ‘Kent E. Katani’ Judge is now on Arizona Governor Doug Ducey’s ‘short list’ for nominees to fill 2 vacant seats on Arizona’s actual ‘Supreme Court’.
Here is one of the articles that ( according to Arizona law ) is now requesting PUBLIC ‘comment’ about Governor Doug Ducey’s ‘short’ list’ of Supreme Court candidates.
And notice who is ( literally ) at the TOP OF THE LIST…
THE SEDONA TIMES
Article Title: Public Comments Sought on Arizona Supreme Court Applicants
Published: August 9, 2016
http://sedonaeye.com/public-comments-sought-on-arizona-supreme-court-applicants/
From that article…
————————————————————————
The public is asked for comments on eleven applicants for TWO new positions on the Arizona Supreme Court.
The applicants are:
Kent E. Cattani, an Arizona Court of Appeals Judge – Division I
Pamela S. Frasher Gates, a Maricopa County Superior Court Judge
Thomas A. Gilson of Beus Gilbert, PLLC
Andrew W. Gould, an Arizona Court of Appeals Judge – Division I
Randall M. Howe, an Arizona Court of Appeals Judge – Division I
John R. Lopez, IV of the Arizona Attorney General’s Office
Robert J. McWhirter of the Law Office of Robert J. McWhirter
Jennifer M. Perkins of the Arizona Attorney General’s Office
Robert G. Schaffer of Lewis Roca Rothgerber Christie, LLP
Peter B. Swann, an Arizona Court of Appeals Judge – Division I
Samuel A. Thumma, an Arizona Court of Appeals Judge – Division I
The appointment of a Supreme Court Justice is a transparent process and public input importantly helps the Commission on Appellate Court Appointments fairly and effectively evaluate each candidate. Applications are posted online at http://www.azcourts.gov/jnc.
The Commission on Appellate Court Appointments will review the applications and hear comments at a public meeting on September 1, 2016.
The meeting will be held in Room 101 of the Arizona State Courts Building, 1501 West Washington. Citizens may address the Commission at that time or send written comments to 1501 West Washington, Suite 221, Phoenix, AZ 85007 or to jnc (at) courts.az.gov.
Comments must be received by August 30, 2016, to be considered.
Anonymous comments cannot be considered.
At the September 1, 2016, meeting, the Commission will decide which applicants will be interviewed for the openings. The Commission will begin interviewing the selected applicants on September 29, 2016. After the interviews, the Commission will recommend at least three nominees for each opening to Governor Doug Ducey, who will APPOINT the new justices.
————————————————————————
So anyone in Arizona who has anything to say about this ‘Judge Kent E. Cattani’ guy only has until this coming TUESDAY ( August 30, 2016 ) to do it.
And if this ‘Judge Kent E. Cattani’ guy DOES end up on the short-short list for the either one of the TWO available Arizona Supreme Court positions… then he will begin to be ‘interviewed’ for that job just 8 ( EIGHT ) DAYS after he ‘presides’ over the ‘Oral Arguments’ in the Yarnell Property Damage appeals case ( with 165+ plaintiffs involved ).
Judge Cattani is NOT being asked ( or required in any way ) to decide the actual ‘results’ of ANY of the 165+ Yarnell Property Damage lawsuits.
This ‘appeal’ is ONLY about whether lower court ( Maricopa County ) Judge Richard Gamma ‘exceeded his authority’ in his ‘decision’ to not even ALLOW those 165+ plaintiffs to even have their ‘day in court’ on the matter(s)… as ( supposedly ) guaranteed in the Arizona Constitution.
Only an ‘actual trial’ ( with evidence presented, and witnesses called to testify UNDER OATH ) could possibly ever ‘decide’ the issues.
Judge Katani is ONLY required to ‘decide’ if these 165+ plaintiffs really ARE ‘entitled’ ( as per the Arizona Constitution ) to… ( win OR lose )… simply have their ‘day in court’.
One can only hope ( indeed, expect ) that Judge Cattani will NOT let his current ‘consideration’ for an appointment ( by Governor Doug Ducey ) to Arizona’s actual Supreme Court to influence his decision making in this appeal in any way, shape or form.
Any ‘considerations’ regarding “staying on Governor Ducey’s good side” with regards to his potential ‘promotion’ should ( hopefully ) NOT influence his decision making in any way.
( All fingers and toes crossed… anyway ).
Hum….Bob Powers…since August 17 6:16am I have tried to make time to ask questions but I have been very ill. First RTS…do you remember my 19 rock pile on the official staff ride path? I was pure when I made that and someone knocked it down and destroyed it and I rebuilt it. People can knock my honorable mark where I last saw the man…but Im on the Weavers from antelope creek to hillside az more than anyone and so keep knocking it down and STEAL the special rocks and the one where turbyfills dad wrote on but one day wwtktt your tag name on this blog will happen…but for now keep gathering but now for Bob Powers…I hope you enjoyed fishing…I know I do…I need to know since you were not present who fed or told you about Lowman that you come here to praise their actions. The size and placement of the backburns-were they sufficient to effectively save the town? Name the size and locations. How long and how wide were each of the 2 specific referenced burnouts as well how close at the closest point and the farthest point of the pattern were each of the 2 to the closest homes…they were designed to protect and how large of an appx acreage was the actual size of the town and were the backburns set up in depth, on only one side of the same? What time of day and or night were each of the same established aerial or manual and were they reinforced with retardant drops? And how many minutes or hours did it take for each of the sep. stages to be prepared.
After my surgeries if I saw you in person and after my surgeries in person I would like to show you whomever fed you that is misinformed and unfair and not a true friend or they are not fully aware to the proper knowledge and I know I paid alot for foias and still awaiting since some a year and Spring 2016 but I do have knowledge about the fire you praised on…please be patient…the truth in due factual time is happening
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on August 29, 2016 at 12:21 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> …keep knocking it down and STEAL the special rocks and the one
>> where turbyfills dad wrote on but one day wwtktt your tag name
>> on this blog will happen…but for now keep gathering
Joy… I know you are ‘famous’ for your run-on sentences… but the way you phrased that one above and ‘ran’ those two thoughts together I feel the need to make something clear.
I have never set foot in the “Great State of Arizona”… and from what I NOW know about Arizona… I absolutely never plan to.
I am ( personally ) horrified that ANYONE would ‘disturb’ that memorial that you and Sonny had started up there on the Weaver mountains. It seems like it might have been ‘removed’ just prior to those ‘Beta Tests’ of that court-mandated ‘Staff Ride’… almost as if the people planning that ‘Staff Ride’ did not WANT that ‘memorial’ to be there… or did not WANT the ‘Family Members’ to even SEE it when they did that court-mandated ‘Family Staff Ride’.
If so… that’s disgusting behavior… and they should APOLOGIZE for it.
Followup…
If the people planning that court-mandated ‘Yarnell Fire Staff Ride’ really ARE the ones who removed/destroyed that rock pile memorial that you and Sonny created up there near the original ‘anchor point’… it might actually be a case where these people were SO ‘obsessed’ with controlling the ‘information’ and the ‘presentation’ for this ‘Staff Ride’ ( especially since the court had ordered at least one of the ‘Betas’ to be specifically for ‘Family Members’ ) that they just didn’t even want to have to TALK about it as the ‘Staff Ride’ passed it.
In other words… they had no ‘plans’ to insert ANY discussion into the ‘Staff Ride’ about the fact that there HAD been ‘hikers’ up there… who HAD met those men in that same location… but THEY managed make it out of there safely that day.
They ( perhaps ) didn’t even want ANYONE on the ‘Staff Ride’ ( especially any ‘Family Members’ ) to even see that ‘memorial’ and ask any questions like “Who put THIS here?”… since it wasn’t them.
Just a theory… but I’m still just trying to comprehend why ANYONE would be so twisted in the head as to DESTROY / REMOVE that memorial that you and Sonny started up there.
Certainly, WTKTT, that memorial was a marker of the place we passed them on their way up. It was also the point from which Joy photographed those men as they continued up the mountain toward the fire edge. Joy’s photo went front pages nationwide and was I believe the very last photo of the complete group of GMHS serving under Eric Marsh. We again saw that photo recently on the front page of a newspaper–I believe the Tucson newspaper–Joy can tell you. Beside that, Joy took over 1500 other photos that day, including close up of the terrain early morning right in the basin and very close to where the men later perished.
We erected a stone monument and asked people that passed to add a stone in honor and rememberance of the 19. Below the monument we arranged 19 rocks with a rock in the middle of the closed space of the 9 to honor Donut. We saw him as a casualty as much as those 19. The reason for that monument was not only to mark the spot we passed and honor the GMHS crew, it was erected because the public is denied access to honor the men at the actual site they died. I do not understand that since all other sites, such as where the 14 died at the Storm King fire in Colorado, 13 at Mann Gulch, and on an on are left accessible to the public and for instance, Dr. Ted Putnam, lead investigator for the Storm King deaths of 14, has accessed the Storm King location many times, and at least 5 times I know of to the Mann Gulch place where 13 were killed. Yet he even was denied access to the GMHS death basin. Don’t hold your breath getting permission to the death basin, since another investigator of long time experience with top credentials, Gary Olson was also denied. Joy and I both went there but only with ADOSH people and they had badges to get themselves through–also instrumental in fining the FS the max fine of over $500,000. Using the excuse that it is too delicate for the widows such as Amanda Marsh to allow people in there sounds fishy to an old timer like me. Why would these widows be anymore delicate of this when we only hear this in Arizona, not Storm King or any of the other sites of wild land fire fighter deaths? Why would the tax payers foot the bill to buy half a section for these people when we are not buying any land for the recent deaths of other fire fighters?
The sad thing is that all fire fighters who know their beans about wild land fire fighting go there and get an education as to how so many men could make such gross errors that would cause their deaths. Accidents seldom are truly accidents and some so called accidents and acts of God are absolutely not accidents. The GMHS deaths were caused–Negligence, carelessness, strictly obeying orders without question, playing a game to impress, and other human factors enter in. This site and the men in the know–long time wild land superintendents, some of the finest civilian investigators and wild land fire death and cause investigators have been laying it out for over three years now despite the many attempts to smoke screen the truth.
Reputations will not be saved at the risk of future wild land fire fighters. Any awards handed out for a so-called good job at Yarnell in ether the GMHS or Tenderfoot fire should be rescinded–Hang your Head Tom Dooly.
Arson and murder are without statute of limitations. Post Mortem charges have much effect. They do remind careless and lackluster wild land fire superintendents, and other bosses responsible for the young lives under them to take due care of their men’s lives. No one wants a legacy of neglectfully killing his or her crew.
They had two days to prep and burn two seperiate Burn Outs one out side the other clear around the Town of Lowman it worked well and saved a town of 5 00.
Bob. Imagine it was Yarnell not Lowman. And those burnouts worked so how big wide deep long were the burnouts to be effective for Yarnell instead of Lowman. ..use imagineering please…im not satisfied…exactly what are we talking about outside. What time…was it at night…what time of the day was it set. I need minut details…
If you had the two days in Yarnell what would you have done and this fire in lowman was it outside east or west or north and what time…in the middle nigt2…did ittake 1hour..12 hours…im interested
You are talking two different locations and fuel types.
Lowman is in a canyon which means the fire could work up and down hill. Its not a big town sits within a 1 x 1 Square mile area.
It also sits on a river which is on one side of the town.
The fire was wide spread south of Lowman.
Prepare a line out say a quarter Mile from Lowman and around the town then one in close. Pre burn the first out a Quarter mile then when the fire gets close set a back fire from the second to burn to the Main fire. you do that as the fire goes around the town.
It takes Highly qualified Back Firing specialists to run such a plan to perfection. Not a bunch of FF with torches and no knowledge of what they are doing. It is a preplanned and executed maneuver.
Yarnell Should have been the priority the Morning of the 30th.
There was time Manpower and location to prep and burn before 4 PM. Protection of the Town again should have been the priority
I believe that should have been the focuses at 6 AM.
They spent all there energy trying to put in direct line and cat line that could not hold not to mention wasting all that Slurry on an open brush field.
That River is the South Fork of the Payette River goes thru the town on the South side. Also a main road running north was used as a burn out to hold the fire from moving back to the east.
they actually used roads and tractor line south of Lowman to keep the fire out of town.
A little town south of Lowman–Pioneerville was also saved by back firing around the town/village.
Joy,
I hope Bob doesn’t mind my stepping in here. Here is a longer answer Bob gave a while ago:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343578
I asked Bob what he would have done ideally at YHF. His plan required 2-3 dozers and a crew. YHF only had one or two dozers, and at least one of them had no red carded driver.
Just the same, Bob opined that they could have finished by lunch. Just imagine, if they could have had what they needed, there would have been 19 tired and hungry guys buying out the pancake supply at the Ranch Restaurant. Instead…
Thanks Muzzy
It is frustrating because I always believed keeping a Wildfire out of and away from structures was how I was trained as the first priority.
That dose not mean getting into a structure area and fighting fire from there. Some times you have to build line where it is safe and some structures just end up in the wrong place.
The individual cabins/houses out in the middle of the Forest or brush lands are on their own. Part of the Fuel.
Small towns need to be looked at differently with out putting WLFF at risk.
Yarnell had some good possibilities to be protected.
I believe a type 2 or 1 IC could have done that on the 30th. That’s my 20/20 hind site any way.
Talking with an old friend of mine who spent the last of his Carrier as the Head of Training for the BLM at NIFC I learned a little a couple of weeks ago.
The Type 4 and 5 ICs were created in the system to appease the CITY FIRE DEPARTMENTS.
When home land security bought into ICS every thing changed.
So a Capitan on a Engine could be classed as a IC with out the S-courses that normally went with IC 3,2.1’s They wanted to insure the name went with the job did not have to be only WL Fire had to cover Structure fires. There lies the HYBIRD FF.
NOTE–a IC3 in the Federal system in the 90s was a basic crew boss and some times squad boss. Small fires from a tree to 10 Acers some times more but very seldom. You have from 1 to 15 people under you. They increased the IC3 level up to Sector Boss old—ICS STLD Strike Team Leader. then dropped the qualifications back to the IC 4 and 5 which is a small 1 to 3 resources fire.
Look at the makeup of the Yarnell Hill Fire and you have your answer why it went to hell.
The level of ability at the IC5. IC4, and IC3 are just not sufficient to deal with the complexity they had.
Muzzy mentions that the YHF had one or two bulldozers on it.
Do we know the names of these drivers and their qualifications?
actually blm do not use dozers ? localdaid it was not them so where would a foia come from…which entity has that
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
August 30, 2016 at 9:26 am
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> Muzzy mentions that the YHF had
>> one or two bulldozers on it.
>>
>> Do we know the names of these
>> drivers and their qualifications?
For the FIRST dozer… NAMES, yes.
For the SECOND dozer… NAMES, no.
For BOTH dozers… QUALIFICATIONS, no.
NONE of these ‘dozer operators’ were ever ‘interviewed’ by any investigators.
** THE FIRST DOZER
** ( FROM YAVAPAI COUNTY )
Joy A. Collura obtained ( via an Arizona Open Records Request ) the actual ‘time sheets’ for that FIRST Yavapai County dozer that arrived in Yarnell on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013.
That FIRST dozer was a Yavapai County Dozer being ‘contracted’ by Arizona Forestry to work the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Here is a ‘text’ version of that ‘timesheet’ for the dozer that was working the south end of the Yarnell Hill fire on June 30, 2013. There were TWO ‘shifts’ worked for that dozer on Sunday by TWO different ‘operators’. Operator Paul Morin is the one who showed up with the dozer on Sunday morning ( with no red-card qualifications and no handheld radio )… and he ‘operated’ that dozer until 9:00 PM Sunday night. 2 hours later, at midnight on Sunday, Operator Donald Rezzonico took over and continued ‘operating’ that dozer all night and on until 2:00 PM the next day.
The actual ‘timesheet’ obtained by Joy A. Collura from Yavapai County…
——————————–
Dozer: Cat D7R
Serial # 06562
From: Yavapai County
Shift 1:
START: June 30 – 0700 (7 AM)
STOP: 2100 (9 PM)
Hrs: 14
Operator: Paul Morin
Shift 2:
START: July 1 – 0000 (Midnight)
STOP: 1300 (2 PM)
Hrs: 13
Operator: Donald Rezzonico
———————————–
This FIRST dozer ( and its operator on Sunday, Paul Morin ) was the one that ended up on the ‘missing persons’ list following the deployment.
When DPS Ranger 58 Helicopter was given permission to take off and begin searching for the ‘missing persons’ at 5:16 PM… they were told ( we still don’t know by who ) to look for 20-25 people… including an entire Hotshot crew, a Division Supervisor, and a ‘bulldozer’ and its operator(s).
No one seemed to know WHERE that FIRST bulldozer or its operator, Paul Morin, was following the deployment… and so they were both added to the ‘missings persons’ list following the deployment and Ranger 58 was told to ‘look for them’ as well.
** THE SECOND DOZER ( MAY MACHINERY )
As per Yarnell Fire Resource Order E-39, the SECOND Dozer for Yarnell wasn’t even ‘ordered’ until just after NOON ( 12:05 PM ) on Sunday, June 30, 2016, just 5 minutes after Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) had arrived over the fire to take over the Air Operations… and the first VLAT drops were made in coordination with SPGS2 Darrell Willis to try and protect the Double-Bar-A Ranch in Peeples Valley.
That SECOND dozer resource order was then ‘fulfilled’ with a Type 2 dozer from private contractor ‘May Machinery’ and was listed as follows…
DOZER – T2 – AZA1S – May Machinery – 05142 (1996 CAT D5HWL )
That SECOND dozer ( only ordered at 12:05 PM Sunday ) had a ‘Needed’ time in the resource order of 1400 ( 2:00 PM ) that same Sunday… and then an ‘Assigned’ time in the resource order of 1357 ( 1:37 PM )… but is not actually ‘seen’ arriving in Yarnell until 4:36:10 PM… just about 3 minutes before Jesse Steed would make his first ’emergency’ radio call from out in the box canyon.
That SECOND dozer was captured in Panebeaker Air Study video 20130630_1643_EP passing by the camera setup there on Hays Ranch Road at 4:36:10 PM… heading WEST towards the Model Creek Elementary School Incident Command Post ( ICP ).
The resource orders do not say who the OPERATOR was to be for that SECOND dozer… but there is a good chance it was one of the co-owners/operators of ‘May Machinery’ itself… either Mr. Bill May or Mr. William May III ( the 3rd ).
Regardless of whether the ‘operator names’ are known or not for either dozer… NONE of the actual ‘qualifications’ for ANY of those dozer operators has ever been established.
The only thing that IS known is that the operator who came with the FIRST ‘Yavapai County’ dozer, under an Inter-Agency agreement, showed up in Yarnell WITHOUT the proper red-card quallifications to be operating a dozer for Arizona Forestry.
That is why SPGS1 Gary Cordes had to then ‘baby-sit’ that dozer as DOZB/HEQB that morning… and got ‘stuck’ doing that until he could get Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball to ‘relieve’ him of that job circa 10:30 AM Sunday.
There was ONE Dozer on the 30th.
Another one showed up later.
I always believed there were more on contract that were not that far away. I do not think there was a priority set the night of the 29th for more than one dozer. Which became another a big mistake.
The people in charge were just not doing their job or were just over run with any ability to accomplish an objective.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
August 30, 2016 at 12:54 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> There was ONE Dozer on the 30th.
>> Another one showed up later.
Yes. That SECOND Dozer that showed up in Yarnell at 4:36 PM ( just 3 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first emergency radio call ) wasn’t even ORDERED until 12:05 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
That’s the dozer resource order that was ‘filled’ with the one from private contractor “May Machinery”.
The one ( and ONLY ) dozer they had to use since that morning was the one that came from Yavapai County… and showed up with operator Paul Morin who had no red-card and no radio.
**
** BLUE SCREEN
As the ‘principal photography’ phase of this ‘Granite Mountain’ fillum comes
to a close this week… interesting PUBLIC photo has been posted by one of
the ’emgmedia’ camera persons who has been posting photos from the
film sets all along.
It’s a photo of a MASSIVE BLUE SCREEN that was set up OUTDOORS for
a scene filmed something this last week…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BJWQ8ucj0f9/?taken-by=emgmedia
Probably had something to do with the filming of the actual ‘deployment/burnover’.
That’s the only scene I can think of that might have required this massive effort and
this massive expense. You’d need PLENTY of room to film the actual ‘deployment/burnvoer’
scene ( involving 19 actors at once )… but you would still need all that BLUE SCREEN
so the CGI people can ‘do their thing’ later and try to make it look realistic.
And when you can’t find a studio big enough… you just ‘make your own’ ( OUTDOORS ).
Another ‘grip’ working on the ‘fillum’ who has also been posting PUBLIC photos
from the ‘set’ all along has now also posted something which suggests that HE
will be officially ‘off the clock’ this coming Friday, September 2, 2016… and then
( for him ) it’s off to ‘vacation’ in Canada and Europe…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BJdn8qHjMGv/?taken-by=darineppich
That also matches original reports that this ‘principal photography’ phase was
only going to last until the first week of September.
And the ‘fanclub’ for actor Taylor Kitsch ( who has been playing deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Christopher MacKenzie ) is still ‘hard at work’ scouring the InterWeb ( as they have been for months now ) for anything and everything they can find that either depicts or mentions their heart-throb ( Kitsch ) and his association with this GM ‘fillum’ thing.
And they really are quite GOOD at it ( finding everything and anything that is out there ).
THEY are now ‘reporting’ that there have already been some ‘wrap parties’ this weekend.
Some of the actors playing some of the deceased GM Hotshots are already ‘moving on’ to their next projects… so that’s just another indicator that any/all scenes involving ALL of the deceased GM Hotshots are now ‘in the can’ and these actors are free to move on.
This ‘Fan Club’ is up to two complete ‘threads’ about the GM ‘fillum’ alone… with many ‘pages’ for each thread. Their ‘second’ thread is up to 11 ( Eleven ) full PAGES now… and here is a direct link to that ‘page’ and the most recent ‘updates’ from THEM regarding what is happening there in New Mexico…
http://www.fanforum.com/f309/%5Bgranite-mountain%5D-thread-2-because-his-mustache-game-strong-63175134/index11.html
From that PUBLIC fan-forum ‘page’…
———————————————————————————-
Comment from Taylor Kitsch fan: worthyoflove
Today – Sunday, August 28, 2016 – at 2:39 PM
Definitely a wrap party last night, Miles was there…mustache shave watch is on.
Quote:( from Producer Ellen Schartz’s PUBLIC Instagram page )…
ellenhschwartz
#granitemountain #wrapparty #almostdone #santafe #newmexico
“Almost Done”
Quote: ( from actor Alex Russell’s PUBLIC Instagram page )…
alexrussell ( Photo )
https://www.instagram.com/p/BJqsOmjgZno/?taken-by=alexrussell
On set in my yellows. Can’t believe this leg of the journey is coming to a close. Truly one of the most incredible and important experiences of my life. The people I’ve met, the beautiful connections I’ve made. Thank you to all #hotshots, to all #wildlandfirefighters and their families. A lot of movies being made about super heroes these days. This is a movie about real life heroes, putting themselves on the line, battling Mother Nature so that we can all rest easy. It’s been my great privilege to be a part of thanking and honoring them through the telling of this story. The story of the #granitemountainhotshots Immeasurable love and respect. #granitemountain
———————————————————————————-
Direct link to Blacklabel Media Film Company producer ‘Ellen Schwartz’s’ PUBLIC Instagram page… and the photo mentioned above from one of the first ‘wrap parties’ for this Granite Mountain ‘fillum’ principal photography phase…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BJpFnpKg7Bs/?taken-by=ellenhschwartz&hl=en
According to this PUBLIC photo posted by Producer Ellen Schwartz… this ‘wrap party’ took place 23 hours ago ( Saturday night ) at the Sante Fe Hilton.
Ellen Schwartz is actually listed as one of the ‘Executive Producers’ for this ‘fillum’ ( there are usually more than one ‘Executive Producers’ for a project like this ).
Her ‘top level’PUBLIC Instagram HOME page is here…
https://www.instagram.com/ellenhschwartz/?hl=en
She had been posting ‘photos’ from the set on a pretty regular basis herself… right up until that time when Josh Brolin posted his PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ attack post against John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA.
Since then… it seems she ‘stopped’ posting any PUBLIC photos or messages directly related to the film.
And that would stand to reason.
She ( as an Executive Producer and responsible for making SURE the ‘investors’ in this film see their expected ROI ( return on investment ) ) might have actually been the one to TOLD actor Josh Brolin to DELETE that ‘attack post’ of his against John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA. ( which Brolin DID do… not even 24 hours after he posted it ).
If she is the one who TOLD Brolin to take that ‘attack’ post down ( because it wasn’t in the best interests of the film’s investors )… then it stands to reason she would have then ALSO ( herself ) ‘cut back’ on posting any PUBLIC photos from the set or any other PUBLIC information about the ‘filming’.
Maybe those actors and others could all rest easy under better fire management–but except Yarnell==take a look, half the homes burned down and 110 deaths of locals since the fire. Talk about mismanagement of a wild land fire–this one wins a huge prize–history making–A killer managed fire–killed the crew of 19 and burned down half the town. Now if that is not a boondoggle nothing is. What am I missing as to the big heroics we heard of here? Definitely the grunts are heroes even though they blindly followed the blind. But several here are implicated every bit as much I think even more that driver that “accidentally” wrecked a bus after 28 hours without sleep and having had indulged in drugs not long before. The boss that died must not have been hungover as well for either considering that he would allow someone that depleted to drive his crew. That reminds me of the boss that ordered a depleted and hungover GMHS crew into a dangerous entanglement that made it impossible to outrun a wild fire he knew was about to change. His ordering their dash against time and natures wind changes was a foolish act that needs complete examination and explanation.
Something that ought to be cleared up is that the wind had changed much earlier than what we hear posted. It did change sooner but the terrifying rate that it took came later in the day. At a bit after one on top of the Weavers-I could already feel a slight change with the calm before the storm we were watching advance our way. It was one damn good reason to go back and fetch Joy and believe me my mind was on high alert due to what was bound to happen. You see, where the GMHS were and where Joy was she could not detect any breeze or wind at all–but at the top of the Weavers, the wind factor was easily felt.
Surely the men had been advised by radio that the wind was changed–but when. Do only the bosses get this info and how willing was Marsh and Steed to share it with the other men? Maybe Donut could tell us their attitude in those instances. Oh, I forgot, he forgot and is lawyered up as well.
Why would you exit the west side of the Weavers and not the East into the manzanita, catclaw, scrub oak? If you use your binoculars from the Arrowhead Bar and Cafe you can see how sparse the vegetation is on the west side of the Weavers. Duh–with a fire raging to the East Side, winds changing direction, you do not drop down in a box canyon with 60%slope and manzanita so dense you have to literally crawl through it in places and reverse and go around other places. No sprinting, no damn way a bear goes through even unless he wallows across some of it. How do Joy and I know? We went through that shit above Helms, very near where GMHS were entrapped in the death basin. Her photos, time and date stamped do not lie.
Joy was like the GMHS though, a mind that toward the fire and Helms was an option that would get them out quicker. Hot, 106 F , tired, and watching that fire explode then head off toward People’s Valley gave them no mind that all hell could break loose with an ascending storm coming from Prescott area.
If you want to understand a storm, know that once you feel a calm in this country, generally on the high desert with that storm visible–give yourself between 15 to 30 minutes until the winds from the storm will pick up and come at you. That was why I had panic in my heart once watching the exploding fire and the storm coming our way. I can say this because as a youngster, we lived on the high deserts and when we saw a pending storm and the calm before it we knew thirty minutes was our max time to have our tent buckled down, our clothes hanging out put away and even our tin utensils put up else they would be gone in the wind — sort of like the truth up to lately about the Yarnell Hill Fire.
**
** PERSONAL RECORDING DEVICES ARE ALLOWED AT THE
** UPCOMING YARNELL PROPERTY DAMAGE APPEAL ‘ORAL ARGUMENTS’
At 11:00 AM on Wednesday, September 21, 2016, Presiding Judge Ken E. Cattani ( and/or Acting Presiding Judge Lawrence F Winthrop ) will hear “Oral Arguments” in Case Docket number “CA-CV 15-0349”, with Case Name “ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.”
Case Name: “ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.” ( Yarnell Hill Property Damage suit with 165+ plaintiffs )
Case Docket Number: CA-CV 15-0349
This is the appeal of the original “Property Damage” lawsuit(s) with 165+ ( ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY FIVE plus ) separate ‘plaintiffs’ all suing for ‘damages’ as a result of negligence on the part of those ‘managing’ the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
** RECORDING DEVICES ALLOWED AT ‘ORAL ARGUMENTS’
From the Arizona ‘Court of Appeals’ website itself… the page that ‘explains’ the ‘Oral Argument’ process…
http://www.azcourts.gov/coa1/Oral-Arguments
From that page…
————————————————————————————-
Oral Arguments
The Court will notify counsel at least 20 days in advance of the setting of oral arguments. Oral arguments set for the next 30 days are listed in the calendar. When oral argument has been granted, the Court generally allows 20 minutes to each of the two sides to the case. When there is more than one party on a side of a case, their respective counsel should decide among themselves how to divide oral argument. It is helpful in such a circumstance to inform the Court at the outset of the argument of the manner in which argument is to be divided.
Rules for courtroom conduct are here. ( clickable link on page at link above. ).
The Court makes unofficial digital audio and video recordings of each oral argument, which it maintains until the case to which they relate has been mandated or otherwise closed. These recordings are not created as, and do not constitute, official records of Court proceedings.
The recordings may be accessed here ( when they become available )…
http://www.azcourts.gov/coa1/Oral-Argument-Recordings
Pursuant to the Court’s policy, a VISITOR may use a personal device on his or her person to audio record an oral argument WITHOUT seeking PERMISSION, as long as he or she gives prior notice to the Court or to its staff.
All OTHERS ( official media, representatives, etc. ) who wish to audio- or video-record or broadcast an oral argument must submit a prior written request and may do so only by order of the Court. Persons using personal recording devices that disrupt the dignity of the proceedings may be ordered to stop the recording.
——————————————————————————————
NOTICE that, unlike other Arizona Court Proceedings, the ‘official recording’ of these ‘Oral Arguments’ is SUPPOSED to be AUTOMATICALLY posted to the above link as soon as there has been a ‘decision’ regarding this ‘Appeal’. It is NOT necessary to submit an Arizona Open Records request to obtain THESE ‘recordings’. They are SUPPOSED to be automatically posted at that PUBLIC link listed above.
Brought this to top for Rocksteady.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-345313
Thanks Bob was not sure..
Reply to Bob Powers post on August 27, 2016 at 7:54 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Brought this to top for Rocksteady.
The original ‘question’ from ‘rocksteady’ was…
>> On August 24, 2016 at 7:31 am, rocksteady asked…
>>
>> Does anyone on here know if CalFire or LA County Fire has a policy
>> where the FF must wear a shelter?? That is the question..
And the response was…
>> On August 27, 2016 at 7:53 am, Bob Powers replied…
>>
>> Yes LA County and Cal Fire do
>> The Structure crews do not they are the ones wearing the Turn Outs,
>> Running Hose not WLFF.
>> No gear of any kind under turn out coat.
>> There is a difference between the two with in the Urban Interface.
And here again is that ‘photo’ from the recent ‘Sand Fire’ ( the one with the entrapment at the US Forestry Bear Divide Station ) of an LA County FF playing WFF. ( Hybrid FF ).
This guy is at the end of a hose lay trying to attack a fireline that is suddenly ‘flaring up’ and threatening his life…
…and he has absolutely NO ‘pack’ or ‘fire shelter’…
http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-deadly-sand-fire-destroys-18-homes-burns-22000-acres/#25
Photo Caption: Santa Clarita, California. An LA County firefighter finds himself in a tad bit of trouble as flames from the Sand Fire get too close. This was a spot fire that he tried to get to but they had to pull out. This is along Placerita Canyon Road. ( Photo by Mike Meadows ).
NOTE: At the link above… you may have to scroll down below the TOP photo/slideshow to see that ‘photo number 25’ of the ‘Hybrid’ FF fighting the ‘Sand Fire’.
This is what I said WTKTT.
The person in this picture has City/County Fire truck turn outs heavy pants and Coat,
Belongs to a Structure Engines used for House Fires. They do not carry Fire Shelters or Packs they very seldom get more than 100 Ft. from there truck.
LA COUNTY WILD LAND UNITS are like the State and Feds. Two different animals.
Same organization.
As well as the picture on the lower Right they are not Wild land FF’s.
I would agree they are Hybrid FF more to the tune of Structure protection than any thing else.
We have these guys here in Twin Falls that will lay hose in the city limits to put out Grass and Bruch Fires next to Structures, They go to Wild Fires strictly for the purpose of putting out Structures or Fires around Structures.
That Big Blue Pack that the LA County guys are carrying is the Fire Shelter.
In some of the other Pictures.
Yes. Some of the other photos DO show these ‘Hybrid’ guys carrying those ‘Blue Pack’ Fire shelters while they are fighting the fire.
Pretty inconsistent, though, if you look at other online sites and other photos from this ‘Sand Fire’.
SOME of seem to be carrying them… SOME aren’t.
Good or bad?
If I did not have to carry one Manditory I would not have chosen to.
I will say of all the County Departments that I ever worked with LA County was By Far the Best Wildland units in the Country.
They were top notch back in the 60’s do not expect that’s changed.
I never considered them HYBIRD’S even to this day.
LA COUNTY is a highly professional Fire Organization.
I will leave it at that.
LA County wildland units are like the state & feds? Two different animals?
I’ll give you the opportunity to amend that statement before I’m required to thoroughly jump your shit.
Your move, Mr. Bob.
Woodsman
You did not understand Plain English?
LA County has Brush Units and Structure units Study the LA county land scape.
You have unincorporated areas that have Homes on private Land out side city limits and out side State and Federal Land.
So jump away Mr. City Fireman or are you one of those WTKTT so fondly calls Hybrid I truly begin to wonder?
Mr. Bob,
Out of respect for my elders, I’m going to tone down the reaming on this one.
I’m not a hybrid firefighter & definitely not a “city” firefighter. I have said I’m a reformed hybrid but that’s not exactly true because although I was both wildland & municipal for a period of time, my allegiance began with wildland so I never fully ‘crossed over.’ I have a somewhat unique perspective on the situation because of this & it doesn’t hurt that my position as a paid state forestry technician/wildland firefighter requires that I train municipal folks in wildland fire (it’s written in my annual job description), so I know of which I speak from this perspective.
Wool doggie! All this time I was under the impression that you were a defender of the US Forest Service (and California specifically) til death do us part, but until now I didn’t realize you were also a defender of city/country hybrid wannabes.
Your world & what you have known has been systematically destroyed, Bob. The Forest Circus was once a world renowned organization & it exists as a facade of its previous existence today. It still does have some shining stars out there (tru brown) but the organization as a whole has been neutered & destroyed. The USFS sucks but at least it doesn’t suck s bad as the USDI Park Service – oh man, they suck so bad it’s an embarrassment to mankind.
As a state wildland firefighter, we can actually still get our mission accomplished efficiently. The Forest Circus sits on it’s ass & purposely let’s the fire get huge because of all the bullshit they must go through to get the machine functioning whereas we just put it out. I was Asst Crew Boss in Montana in 2004 where they ordered us off the line & we pleaded to stay because of a small section of unsecured line. We could have handled it with 1 squad & an hours time but were denied. The next day that bitch got out just like we knew it would, ran up on over the Continental Divide, & the Management Team bragged in the next morning briefing that we were now the priority fire in the nation – great job, assholes!
Most federal organizations want the fire to get big so the big money starts flowing. The hybrids have figured out how to tap into this cash. We don’t get hazard pay or have the many encumbrances or pressures the federales have so we can just do the job the tax payers demand at much lower cost.
You will never be convinced how bad the feds suck. Not even after they lost most of their own fucking fire station. You will…
conjure excuse after excuse as to why it happened but it will never be that they suck & become a bloated misguided mismanaged organization riding the coat tails of its successful past.
The wheels have fallen off the truck, Bob. They have squandered the treasure built by tough men of the past. It’s an absurd embarrassment to forest firefighting. You know it. You know I’m right. I sorry your great former federal agency has ended up in the toilet.
One only has to review these fires to see it: total failure. Sonny is right and you don’t have to be one of us to figure it out. In fact, it can blind one to acceptance of truth if they are a WFF because of our years of indoctrination. Wildland firefighting is not a high-tech occupation. It would save lives to admit this fact & leave our enormous egos at home when headed to take care of a wildfire. Alas, but we don’t. We all want to stroke our egos, cash the big check, revel in the accolades of hero worship, make the system huge & complicated, & deflect blame for anything that goes wrong anywhere but squarely where it should be. We hold our hands out for more money to solve the problem when the problem cannot be solved with more money.
The internet has changed everything. The public can plainly see the man behind the curtain. It’s a joke, personally & professionally embarrassing, & a let-down to people who have the money confiscated from them to fill the coffers where our paychecks come from.
Woodsman
What can I expect from a State Firemen?????
Your statements are ABSURD to the maximum degree.
While yes the Forest Service has changed it still puts out fire to state they let a fire get big to make money is in its self asinine but then only those out side the Feds like to play that game and it is a game.
I am ashamed of you Woodsman you have fallen into the quagmire. But then I am beginning to expect no less from you.
I stand on My Principles, experience and knowledge.
Those are my assists I do not see what you see nor hear what you say from current USFS Wild Land Fire Fighters.
End of Story.
Thanks Woodsman. Joy and I have learned so much from wild land fire fire fighters. There definitely needs some changes, and Bob does agree that the Yarnell incident was a terrible job of management–even mentioning the expensive and useless dumping of retardant in open territory.
As far as the Tenderfoot fire, at first taken care of by the local fire men a back burn that became a major fire effort to control, I can see that allowing city fire men to play wild land fire fighting people is a mistake. The error here allowed power lines to burn, and another major fire that topped the mountain and expanded toward the east and north so that even Peeples Valley became threatened. Wild land fire fighting crews did come in finally to control what was locally started, when it seemed obvious to me they would have been working in different areas, been cognizant of the power lines and many cell towers we have on that mountain and knowing that the fire would be better allowed to flow to the south east as the winds were taking it.
I am convinced now that once a fire is started in the wild lands, then only the wild land fire fighter types ought to be on the job.
However the locals did create a lot of power line work, cell tower work, burn a few structures and cause tons of retardant to be dropped near the town. They of course believe the retardant is safe, but Sonny knows that is a crock.
Then think of all the jobs created for the expanded fire they made. I don’t blame the man that takes orders, but I do blame the people that ordered such.
It did add a cost of millions to the tax payer bill.
September 21st 2016 11am
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/1ca/1cacalendar.htm
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/1ca/1cacalendar.htm
I ask the WORLD to please be present in person or in prayer for this appeals that it be God’s will to GO TO TRIAL — I WANT AS MANY PEOPLE WE CAN GET TO BE THERE SO THE JUDGE SEE THE IMPORTANCE THAT “SAFETY MATTERS”—if it goes to trial — hopefully I will hook up with a professional podcast person and make a non-profit show and we will go through from day one to now all the details I got behind the scenes and if it is a non-commercial purpose foia we discuss- I will STILL state my questions public and let you know which answers requires others to do a commercial one…I cannot tell you HOW MUCH information I hold on to and some say I thought you were transparent…MY FIRE ACCOUNT has been transparent and there are some I keep in the loop on behind the scenes but some I do not because I learned they carry agendas and angles. However my gut feels the information I hold I will not only SHARE IT but I will give you every tiny detail how it came to be…my hopes in it is for people who were THERE know I know what I know and its only due time they can keep withholding…
Paul Morin…you wanna start telling us your activities and account on 6-30-13?…
Musser and Hall?
Just saying…
In these podcasts I will take you to the people and the places—
where the very spot retardant was dropped to who is still alive and how they are today…
By the time the podcast is done you will KNOW Yarnell and the people and places and you will know what I know on the fires—
you will also know Prescott as well and surrounding towns
and I won’t need Hollywood to get the message out either WHO the GMHS were—I have documented THAT area extremely well and when I have stopped gathering you will know the men probably better than some of their loved ones…and again I am properly documenting them and I WILL be expressing my humble opinion with much purity and NO angle and NO agenda and I will not change YCSO to Yarnell officers…it will not be Blue River..it WILL BE Blue Ridge…and it will be real and it will be raw…and yes it takes time because I know we live in a sue happy world and I have to present it with purity and enough documents so these TWISTERS have no chance at their games…when it is presented there will be NO WAY anywhere can sue me…and I turned down tv shows and movies and I will present that during podcasts who I turned down with linked documentation….and no actors will be involved making a buck off a tragedy and then maybe those people will be cornered to SPEAK UP that indeed NEED TO…
when that time arrives…I feel I gave YOU over three years to tell your story-
So do not get all “oh-why-me. why now!”
You will have had your time but you OPTED to SPEAK UP when cornered-
the world will see it that way—because that is the only way it could be seen.
I will also with documentation BREAK DOWN fact vs fiction in ALL books that are published already about YHF…these podcasts will be PUBLIC and I will give ANYONE permission to use the information as you need to PROPERLY ASSESS THE YHFires…they cannot be used to FIT YOUR NARRATIVES OR GAINFUL NEEDS— in any gainful profitable cause(s)
Maybe I am just confused but I can not tell which case on which date and which court room you are referring to.. Help!!
that was why I placed links in there-
this is the properties that burned down 6-30-13 that was Dismissed late Spring 2016…appeals date…
COURTROOM 2
2nd Floor, 1501 W. Washington, Phoenix, Arizona
http://lowres.jantoo.com/religion-turkey_dinner-prays-prayers-give_thanks-thanksgiving-55630081_low.jpg
and again the ones who don’t pray…whatever you DO…it helps too because look at image above…he got the drumstick…
rocksteady-
we need people to tell the truth…this is not to make Smokey the Bear shine in the Forestry area…why save reputations on lives living while men and women keep dying?
I know you are in another country—but channel your self there 9-21-16 to ensure the right thing happens… A TRIAL HAPPENS!
and if you have kids and Sonny was to tell them Sunday bible stories—he would read them stories like this:
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gdargaud.net%2FHumor%2FPics%2FHammered.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gdargaud.net%2FHumor%2FQuotesReligion.html&docid=ZCr0MH9VsFteFM&tbnid=EqIEuZiq0RNeoM%3A&w=400&h=495&bih=732&biw=1024&ved=0ahUKEwivroLCwN3OAhVD2GMKHV3RCYk4kAMQMwhRKEswSw&iact=mrc&uact=8
I do hope that the property owners win…
Them winning compensation should not be confused with the fatalities. They are 2 different items… Incident within an Incident…
Reply to rocksteady post on
August 25, 2016 at 1:49 pm
>> rocksteady said…
>>
>> Maybe I am just confused but I can not tell
>> which case on which date and which court
>> room you are referring to.. Help!!
At this link ( posted above )…
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/1ca/1cacalendar.htm
If you ‘scroll down’ to ‘September 21, 2106’ ( Department ‘E’ )… you find the following ‘schedule’ now being PUBLICLY posted…
———————————————————-
Arizona – Court of Appeals – Division One Schedule(s)
Calendar for…
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 21, 2016 – COURTROOM 2
2nd Floor, 1501 W. Washington, Phoenix, Arizona
Department E
Oral Argument
Kent E Cattani, Presiding Judge
Lawrence F Winthrop, Acting Presiding Judge
O/A 9:30 AM —- 1 CA-CV 15-0291 – POWER RD-WILLIAMS v. GILBERT et al.
O/A 10:15 AM — 1 CA-CV 15-0357 – LEVINE v. PHOENIX/SUNS
O/A 11:00 AM — 1 CA-CV 15-0349 – ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.
Conference —– 1 CA-CV 15-0572 FC – TILSON v. MORRISON
Conference —– 1 CA-CV 15-0603 – MOORE v. PARHAM et al.
—————————————————————–
So THIS is the ‘relevant’ entry now showing on the Court Calendar…
O/A 11:00 AM — 1 CA-CV 15-0349 – ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.
O/A means “Oral Arguments’.
So the ‘English’ would be…
At 11:00 AM on Wednesday, September 21, 2016, Presiding Judge Ken E. Cattani ( or Acting Presiding Judge Lawrence F Winthrop ) will hear “Oral Arguments” in Case Docket number “CA-CV 15-0349”, with Case Name “ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.”
Case Name: “ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.” ( Yarnell Hill Property Damage – 165+ plaintiffs )
Case Docket Number: CA-CV 15-0349
This is the appeal of the original “Property Damage” lawsuit(s) with 165+ ( ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY FIVE plus ) separate ‘plaintiffs’ all suing for ‘damages’ as a result of negligence on the part of those ‘managing’ the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
The actual ‘Case Docket’ ( what the public is allowed to see, anyway ) is here…
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/appella/1CA%5CCV%5CCV150349.PDF
There are currently only 8 ( EIGHT ) pages in this PUBLIC docket file. The first page doesn’t show much and you have to ‘scroll down’ to see the rest.
The case that is ‘on appeal’ ( as per the docket file above ) is…
————————————————-
MAR
CV2014-007698
Tort: Non – Motor Vehicle; Property Damage
J Richard Gama, Authoring Judge of Order
————————————————-
That’s the case from the ‘lower court’ ( Maricopa County Court ) where this Judge Gamma guy wouldn’t even let it come to a trial.
He ‘threw it out’ by saying that the plaintiff’s had ‘no case’ because he ruled that Arizona Forestry never has even one single atomic molecule of responsibility to EVER lift a finger to protect any citizen’s LIFE or PROPERTY.
A lot of the ‘plaintiffs’ aren’t even suing for ‘property damage’, per se, such as complete home reimbursement. SOME of the ‘plaintiffs’ are suing specifically because of the totally botched EVACUATION notices ( and/or lack thereof ) and seeking compensation for the ‘personal possessions’ that were lost because Arizona Forestry didn’t even give them enough fucking time to SAVE those things… whereas a more ‘timely’ and ‘competent’ evacuation notice WOULD have given them time to do so. This includes CARS and things that some people didn’t even have time to drive out of the danger zone because of the botched evacuation notices.
Judge Gamma ‘acknowledged’ those ‘plaintiffs’ when he threw the whole case out and ALSO ruled that Arizona Forestry never had ( or EVER has ) one single atomic molecule of responsibility to NOTIFY any ‘citizens’ or even ‘law enforcement’ about ANYTHING… even if they know damn well that it’s time for people to get out of harms way.
This upcoming ‘hearing’ ( and that’s all it is ) is NOT going to decide the 165+ consolidated “Property Damage” claims themselves.
This is ONLY about them ( the appeals court ) deciding whether or not Judge Gama was full of shit and acting ‘above his authority’ with those rulings ( since there are Arizona State Constitutional issues involved )… and that these poor people really do simply deserve to have their “day in court”… win or lose.
If Judge Gammas decision is ‘upheld’… that will be historic… because from that moment on it is now the ‘law of the land’ in Arizona that Arizona State Forestry is NEVER required to EVER lift a finger to either PROTECT any citizen’s LIFE or PROPERTY… and NEVER required to tell anyone anything regarding when it would be a good idea to ‘evacuate’.
And if they ever DO… then they are NOW automatically committing ‘negligence’ because they are not SUPPOSED to. Not EVER.
Actually… whichever way this upcoming decision goes… it’s going to be “Historic”.
Thanks, I just did not recognize the name of the Landowners that were on the docket..
When the 165+ ( ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY FIVE plus ) cases originally got ‘consolidated’ into one single case back down at the Maricopa County Court level… plaintiff “Gordon Acri” was simply the first name on the list of plaintiffs… when listed in ALPHABETICAL order.
So from then on… the NAME of the ‘consolidated’ Property Damage lawsuits just became…
ACRI et al. v. STATE et al”
The ‘et al’ after ACRI still represents the other 164 original individual lawsuits.
if you want to know more…let me know…otherwise I am handwriting 80 locals to let them know the importance of attendance for 9-21-16 11am so I am not on this page but looking up PO BOXES to mail these out later- I am hoping any of you reading this MARK THAT DATE on ANY of your social media spots because I don’t do social media and I want the NUMBERS there- alot of people work and cannot be there…
ACRI.
don’t mind me. I am very ill this hour. However I want you in another country to know the people…
ACRI is Gordon Acri. He lives by me in Congress in a stonewall castle he built because his little girl drew it and said this is her dream home and he built it using local material in making it.
he was one of the first to be able to SEE the damage of the fire:
Wed Jul 3, 2013 11:55 PM
As investigators began piecing together the events that led to the catastrophe, an Arizona Republic reporter ventured behind the fire lines with a resident whose property sustained heavy damage.
“Look at the cars. There’s nothing left of them,” said Gordon Acri as he drove down what he said was Lakewood Drive in Glen Ilah, on the southern fringe of Yarnell. Acri, a contractor, was just beginning to build his dream home, was granted access to the area to retrieve his grader, a piece of heavy equipment used to smooth out land.
When Acri got to his land, his grader appeared untouched, but it wouldn’t start. A cement mixing truck he owned was torched.
“This was like Disneyland before,” he said. “It was a paradise.”
He surveyed what is still a spectacular view of the Valley framed with a magnificent blue sky, south of his property.
“Not a damn thing left,” Acri said.
Acri visited another home that was scorched a couple of days earlier to retrieve a friend’s medical supplies. He said a house his friend was working on was diminished to “a stack of bricks.”
A cat somehow survived the blaze and was hiding in an adjacent lot, even though metal tool sheds had melted into what Acri described as a “puddle of aluminum.”
“It’s incredible the heat that was in that fire,” he said. “I don’t see how anything could survive.
“The town was just like Roman candles going off everywhere and flare-ups from propane tanks. There had to be at least 15 propane tanks that I heard. And you hear the gas go and then you hear the explosion, and you see the ball of fire.”
Acri said he was on a hill east of the town when he saw the wall of fire move through.
“When the wind changed, it just stopped that wall of fire that was heading right for Main Street,” he said. “You can’t imagine that much force just being redirected by (the) changing direction of the wind.”
“It was just total fire everywhere,” he said. “I can’t even describe it.”
The glimpse of a random damage pattern comes as sheriff’s officials expressed concerns about whether residents could have been injured or killed if they refused to evacuate.
Residents were asked to call a hotline to check on whether their property was damaged, but the line also serves as a way for sheriff’s deputies to account for those residents.
this is Acri-
http://www.havasunews.com/gordon-acri-plays-the-banjo/image_004f0180-a031-11e3-b2d2-001a4bcf887a.html
I watched him take SELF out of the aftermath and FOCUS to the COMMUNITY after the fire to help them clean-up since he had some equipment down in Congress:
http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/clean_up.html
http://maryb65.blogspot.com/2014_11_01_archive.html
the people who held the MONIES they did not even lift a dollar his way for all his hours and help- and gas he put out and labor-
people he knew for decades walked away from him and did not lift a finger to help him but he focused to helping the people…
https://porch.com/yarnell-az/general-contractors/acri-gordon-22338838/pp
Gordon Acri, who has property in
Yarnell, described the situation as a wall
of flame coming from the north to the
south.
“It was just eating everything up in
sight,” said Acri.
He said he managed to get past a roadblock
and get into town even though
Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office deputies
urged residents to leave.
from:
http://www.pulitzer.org/files/2014/breaking-news-reporting/azrepublic/02azrepublic2014.pdf
People have been down right “cruel” to the ones who have LONG TERM stayed in to help others freely without expectations and I am not shocked his little castle he made for his daughter has now an online link to a real estate person—-
I always wished I had that funds- I would turn it into a TRAINING SPOT for firefighters- both structural and wildland. Make it also a great MEETING area for the firefighters- It is located on rich Indian history-
One could even plan firefighter weddings there too- has that castle ambience-
http://www.realtyonegroup.com/homes-for-sale/AZ/Congress/85358/24250_S_Jakes_Way/243_990299/
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/24250-S-Jakes-Way_Congress_AZ_85332_M19156-51419#photo29
Understood now Joy… Was just looking to be enlightened, not to stir the pot
WTKTT is always on top of things. Thanks for your assertions. We are much on the same page, you quite a degree above me on abilities.
So I make an opinion–Marsh and Steed after all evidence is in, are murderers, they killed 17 souls by their ignorance and hope to impress their bosses and the world by risking those young lives. It would have worked had they not killed their men by unduly risking their lives. Of course, they would not have done this dastardly deed, except they had been chided to do so. See, the world, especially the boys that were involved, and they are high and mighty, do not want this truth out, simply because they are implicated as well.
Many will say FU Sonny. I know, but I smile and say, hey, I saw what they did see, and some 40 minutes later went back to retrieve a hard head with her boots off waiting to do exactly what they were soon to do and from the very spot on the two track they went down into that death trap.
I saw that the other day in a kid of 24 treating an old man of 72 like shit because he had a badge and an older man Morales treating this same person with due respect. I think the younger man in time will understand, even if he has taken a life. But to take 17 lives is even a greater burden.
To add to the sadness of this all is a movie making a goddess out of Amanda Marsh and a hero our of Eric. Truly they both, after most revelations are in, reveal the real motives are exposed. Eric wanted to be Willis number 2, and Amanda wants to portray that image. But Eric could never be half of Willis. Many times I have said Willis had much to do with this, but my mind tells me that I am wrong. Something tells me Willis trained these fellows right, and had nothing to do with causing the deaths, even remotely,
I had the number 19 floating over my head the Christmas night that Joy and I hiked up to the two track and above that to honer the 19. Joy has that photo and took it after she said I see the number 19 above your shoulder then I said take a photo. It turned out dimer than when she saw it, but very real.
But I apologize to Willis, because my heart says this is a true person, and some other asshole he would like to kill caused this tragedy/
This new hybrid generation of wild land fire fighters. They believe the garbage that their leaders are invincible Greek Gods of Wild Land Fire Fighting so that their brains go to sleep. Edgar Allen Poe would love this shit and make another world horror seller book out of it. Good thing this was not where Marsh, Steed and the bosses killed prisoners or the book would have doubled in mind control sales.
How do you kill 17, unless there is mind control issue? You must obey strictly obey orders daily. And to emphasize that, many times you are ordered to do 10 or 30 at anytime just to see if you will obey those daily orders.
You are brainwashed, then you die.
Musser and Hall…oops Abel I am sorry I blanked your name at that moment but have not forgot you
how are the elbows boys?
:
😉
on Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 1:58 AM I received a beautiful touching message as I was to do my vomit session (daily and throughout the day always to look forward to at no notice) but in that message I want the world to recognize why I am still here and what’s the purpose and this person noted it:
“….You and I both know the ‘movie business’……That’s how the ‘movie business’ goes and people who are
not familiar with it are the ones who end up thinking it was all some kind
of cathartic experience and that they have made “friends for life”.
But nothing can make the Yarnell Hill Tragedy ‘go away’.
Books will come… and books will go.
Movies will come… and movies will go.
But learning the REAL TRUTH about what REALLY HAPPENED that day is
still the only thing that represents the best chance for all the firefighters
of TODAY and the FUTURE of making sure it never happens again
to THEM the way it did that terrible day in June of 2013.
You are someone who has ALWAYS understood this, Joy.
You didn’t ASK to become one of the last persons to see and talk to these
men before they burned to death.
You didn’t ASK to become one of the only persons alive who actually
‘experienced’ the same ‘conditions’ that day… and saw what those men
saw… and walked where they walked just before they would all die.
But you also have ALWAYS known that what happened that day should
NEVER happen again and that there has always been a HIGHER PURPOSE
to trying to ‘figure it out’ than just wallowing in self-pity and trying to ‘fix’
one’s own personal PTSD or ‘feelings’ about it all.”
—————————————————–
————————————————=-=
the rest of the message was a tear jerker and appreciated yet remains private…
bottom line KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE matter to me…that’s WHY I am still here. Trying to get the ONES who are STILL ALIVE who withhold their accounts to SPEAK UP!
thank you for recognizing that through my adversities and poor health and having to shelf the vanity in this and never deny anyone who has come our way so they can learn and assess for their own self and guide them where to gain their own documented information- there were many times because I have this pressurized obstruction of a mess in the forefront that swells my entire body with fluid that I wanted to for vanity sake ‘hide out’ but all I can do is buy a NEWme bodyweight poster and do the work- place one foot in front of the other and do the cardio at min. 3-4 times a week with an ongoing up and down fever and some bad shit vomiting episodes that take its toll on me. If I do the work than I know I have done my best even if I look so not right as I use to be…I know I did the work each week…and I say that about this fire too. Each week I have done the best I could for what was at hand…I just sat and wrote 80 individual people because that was all I could afford for envelopes and such but I wish I could of sent all the people we helped direct which was almost 500 people but I wrote the 80 who I felt needed to know I will BE THERE 9-21 for them. IT MATTERS! Attendance does matter because I also know this Michael Parrish is good and he IS charismatic and this is not a lawyer up against a jury but a judge—- just this Spring 2016 I dined at a spot with some high up lawyers and they told me it is not just Prescott the nepotism/crony ways- it is all over…and they pretty much know they have to do their best/all each case full well knowing when he walked in that door he saw WHAT lawyer and WHAT judge and knew he was screwed…so since there is no jury in this at this point IT MATTERS ATTENDANCE AND I HOPE ANYONE WITH SOCIAL MEDIA gets this message out for me…please….IT MATTERS…not so much for my life but to the many lives who fight fires—
**
** BEAR DIVIDE STATION ‘ENTRAPMENT’ – MORE INFO
>> On August 24, 2016 at 6:05 pm, Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT
>> for some more clarity on the Compound.
>> My friend past HS Supr.
Just to be clear… this ‘former Superintendent’ you are talking to was actually a ‘Superintendet’ for the ‘Bear Divide Hotshots’ organization itself, yes?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The propane tank is sitting behind the Parking Garage.
Yes. Only 19 feet from it.
Google Earth indicates the propane tank at the Bear Divide Station was
about 16 feet in length, and about 3 and 1/2 feet wide… and is only 19
feet from the edge of the closest building ( parking garage? ).
According to the GASTEC company… a 16 foot long by 3 1/2 foot wide
( horizontal ) propane tank IS, in fact, able to hold 1,000 gallons of propane.
https://www.gasteconline.com/tank-chart.php
—————————————————————
1,000 Gallon Propane Tanks
Common Uses: Whole home systems, home heating, generators, pool heat.
Commercial Uses: Heating, commercial cooking, dry cleaning, crop drying and temp heating.
Size and Capacity: This tank is approximately 3 1/2 feet tall/wide by 16 feet
long and will hold 800 gallons when filled to 80% capacity, 1,000 gallons
at 100% capacity.
—————————————————————
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The large building to the right is the Office, Mess hall and Barracks.
Yes. All ‘connected’ to each other so basically all just ‘one building’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They did not burn.
And a damn good thing… because that’s where those 14 firefighters became ‘entrapped’ as the entire Bear Divide compound ‘burned over’.
With all those tall trees ( some of them just FEET away ) from that ‘larger building’… a few more airborne embers and/or a little more ember wash across that NARROW parking lot… and this ‘story’ could have easily turned tragic.
I am as glad as I can possibly be that no one is currently trying to rent a ‘Toyota Center’ there in northern Los Angeles or Santa Clarita… and having to check Vice President Joe Biden’s ‘schedule’.
But it WAS an ‘entrapment’ involving 14 firefighters… and it still deserves to be ( properly ) investigated.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> There was brush clearance and Roads around them.
Brush, yes. Trees, no. Very tall… thick with leaves… and some just FEET away from the building.
Ditto for the ‘residences’ also there on that Bear Divide Station property.
THEY all burned to the ground.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Hope that helps.
Ask your ‘former HS Superintendent’ friend if he is aware of there ever being a discussion about ‘firewising’ that US Forestry compound… especially the area where they were ‘renting out’ those ‘residences’.
Only 4 of the 5 ‘residences’ and/or ‘slabs/hookups’ were actually ‘occupied’ on July 23, 2016.
Whatever was there ( in that area of the compound ) burned to the ground.
** CONFIRMATION OF ENTRAPMENT
As it turns out… there are MANY online articles and video interviews with the firefighters who actually LOST their rental residences there on the grounds of the US Forestry compound.
And in some of these articles and videos… they basically tell the same story that the SAFENET does ( but with some slight discrepancies as to the TIME the entrapment/burnover actually took place there at that US Forestry Bear Divide Station.
The two firefighters who were ‘involved’ in the entrapment who have give the most ‘interviews’ so far are US Forestry employees Ramon Chavez and James Robledo. The only other Firefighter who has been named as occupying one of the other residences is Sergio Toscano,
Apparently… Sergio Toscano remained working off somewhere else and was not at the Bear Divide Station when the entrapment/burnover took place… but both Chavez and Robledo definitely WERE there and part of the ‘entrapment’ ( along with the rest of their Engine crew and supposedly ‘some Hotshots’ ).
Ramon Chavez is the one that the media couldn’t get enough of as far as ‘interviews’ go because he is also the one who lost his home previously to the ‘Station’ fire there in Angeles Forest back in 2009. The media couldn’t resist that and he has been, by far, the one they have wanted to ‘interview’ the most.
Ramon Chavez was a US Forestry Engine Captain, and he and his wife and 3 children were ‘renting’ one of those ‘double-wides’ there at that Bear Divide Station.
It appears that James Robelo, who was renting one of the ‘other’ residences there at that station, was NOT an ‘Engine Captain’ like Chavez… but appears to have been assigned to Ramon Chavez’s Engine as a ‘crewman’.
As both Ramon Chavez and James Robelo tell it… they were off working with their TYPE 3 Engine on other parts of the ‘Sand Fire’ when they were notified ( supposedly by a Helicopter pilot ) that the ‘Sand Fire’ was burning in the direction of that ‘Bear Divide Station’ where they both lived.
They were both then ( supposedly ) given PERMISSION ( it is not clear by WHO ) to ‘break off’ their line duties and go and try and protect their OWN homes there at the Bear Divide Station.
They were THERE ( at the Station ) when the fire actually made its run at the Station sometime Saturday.
They BOTH say that they ( and their entire Engine Crew ) were “trying to defend our own homes right up until the LAST SECOND”.
The Santa Clarita Valley Signal
Article Title: Firefighters stood by helplessly as own homes burned
Published: July 25, 2016 9:37 p.m. – By Jim Holt
http://www.signalscv.com/section/36/article/154821/
From that article…
————————————————————
U.S. Forest Service firefighters Ramon Chavez and James Robledo were on the line battling the Sand fire Saturday when they received word from a helicopter pilot that their own homes were in the path of the fire, according to a Chavez family member.
Five of the 18 structures burned to the ground by the fast-moving brush fire since Friday were dwellings on U.S. Forest Service land that served as homes for Forest Service employees. Four firefighters and one fire technician lived in those dwellings.
All of the homes exploded in a ball of fire that rolled down Sand Canyon from Bear Divide on Saturday, talking out the USFS homes, a damaging at least two movie ranches and destroying two additional residences.
“My brother was fighting the fire in Bear Divide when he was given notification from a chopper pilot that my brother’s home was one of the homes threatened,” Chavez’s sister Lucia Reyes told The Signal Monday.
Chavez and Robledo were given PERMISSION, she said, to fight the fire at their own homes in the Angeles National Forest.
“How many of his fellow firefighters helped I don’t know, but they also had some help from HOTSHOTS,” she said.
“They all tried to save his house.
“They had a good amount of time and a plan that worked in the past but that fire, when it came over the crest, exploded like a fireball and engulfed those houses,” Lucia Reyes said.
“They watched their houses burn side by side,” she said.
Chavez, a married father of three whose wife was in San Diego at the time of the fire, and Robledo, married with five kids, ran for shelter at a nearby U.S. Forest Service station, she said.
A third firefighter, Sergio Toscano, also lost his U.S. Forest Service home, said Forest Service spokesman Nathan Judy.
“He was on the line fighting the fire,” Judy said, noting Toscano was working with a different crew than the one assigned to Chavez and Robledo.
Toscano learned later that his house had burned down, Judy said.
——————————————————————————–
So there still MIGHT have been some SBFD ( San Bernadino Fire Department ) Engines or FFs involved in this ‘entrapment’… but information coming from Chavez, Robelo and Chavez’s own sister paints a different picture. That Chavez ( US Forestry Engine Captain ) and Robelo ( US Forestry employee and crewman on Chavez’s engine ) and the REST of Chavez’s US Forestry Engine crew joined forces with some US Forestry HOTSHOTS to try and defend their own homes there on that US Forestry Station (quote) “right up until the last minute”.
So that ( might ) make this ‘entrapment’ solely US Forestry employees.
There are already 2 links in this post… so because of the ‘2 link limit’ I’ll post some links to some of the other ( many ) interviews with US Forestry employees Ramon Chavez and James Robelo as ‘Replies’… including the one where James Robledo himself says they became ( his own word ) TRAPPED there for ( in his recollection ) about a half-hour while the fire burned over the Bear Divide Station.
Forgot to point out above… even Ramon Chavez’s SISTER says her brother told her that after trying to “defend their homes with the help of some HOTSHOTS” up to the last possible moment… they ended up having to RUN up to the actual ‘Beard Divide Station’ building…
“Chavez… and Robledo… RAN FOR SHELTER at a NEARBY U.S. Forest Service station, she said.”
That matches this entry in the SAFENET…
——————————————————————————
Because of the situation and fast moving fire, they only had seconds to enter the Bear Divide Hotshot Quarters. Firefighters had to stay sheltered in place for undetermined about of time do to the intense fire behavior, heat and Hazardous Smoke from 5 residents that caught fire. A Forest Service recreation vehicle was also on fire. Adding to the exposure to Hazardous Material Smoke to all 14 firefighters.
Once the fire crossed Little Tujunga canyon road from the east and was now posing a threat to the station, a firing operation commenced by that time it was TOO LATE and over the radio the words “RUN RUN RUN”
All 14 firefighters made it into the Bear Divide Hotshot quarters.
——————————————————————————
There is NO mention in the SAFENET that these ‘firefighters’ might have ALL actually been US Forestry employees… who all eventually became ‘entrapped’ because US Forestry Engine Captain Ramon Chavez and one of his crewman, US Forestry employee James Robledo, had been given PERMISSION to go there and try to defend their OWN homes.
** KHTS RADIO AM 1220
**
** VIDEO INTERVIEW WITH RAMON CHAVEZ, THE CAPTAIN OF
** US FORESTRY ENGINE E19-ANF ( ANGELES NATIONAL FOREST ).
Los Angeles Radio station KHTS AM 1220 had remarkably good coverage of the ‘Sand’ Fire… and this Radio Station has it’s own VIDEO interview team(s) complete with their own ‘flying DRONE cameras’.
As the ‘Sand Fire’ was nearing full containment… they caught on to the ‘story’ of the US Forestry firefighters who had lost their homes at the Bear Divide Station.
They they conducted on-camera interviews with BOTH US Forestry Engine ‘E19 – ANF’ ( of the Angeles National Forest ) Captain Ramon Chavez… and one of his crew members, fellow US Forestry employee James Robledo.
Both Ramon Chavez and James Robledo were part of the ‘entrapment’ that eventually took place there at the Bear Divide Station.
The KHTS video interviews are actually just PUBLIC ‘YouTube’ videos that they have been posting to their own KHTS ‘YouTube Channel’.
Here is the link to the on-camera interview with US Forestry E-19-ANF Engine Captain Ramon Chavez.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yKJFvq992c
And here is a TRANSCRIPT of the part of that VIDEO interview where Chavez describes what happened there at that Bear Divide Station ( including the day BEFORE, Friday ).
It includes the offset times into the video of some interesting PHOTOS and some VIDEO taken at the Station itself ( some using a DRONE CAMERA ).
The ‘Interviewer’ was KHTS reporter Drake Hougo.
Both Ramon Chavez and his wife, Bonnie, are in ‘front of the camera’.
——————————————————————————————
Interviewer: KHTS AM 1220 is beginning a new video series to share the struggles and perseverance of four firefighter familes who lost their homes at the Bear Divide Fire Station to the Sand Fire. To the Chavez family, Saturday, July 23 will be a day they always remember.
+0:23 – Video shows a still photo of Ramon Chavez’s ‘BALLCAP’ that has an emblem on it that says “Engine 19 – Bear Divide”.
+0:35 – Video shows a photo of Ramon Chavez’s actual TYPE 3 Engine 19 ( E19 ANF ). The ANF stands for ‘Angeles National Forest’.
Interviewer: Ramon Chavez, the captain of a Type 3 Fire Engine, was battling the Sand Fire near the ( 14? ) Freeway while his wife, Bonnie, and their three kids were in San Diego. When the wind shifted the blaze began moving towards the Bear Divide Fire Station, threatening the modular residences on the property. Soon after, everything was lost to the fire.
+0:48 – A pre-burn photo of the grey-with-white-trim trailer that was the Chavez home.
+0:53 – A photo of the burned Chavez residence.
+0:54 – Ramon Chavez speaking to the camera…
Ramon Chavez: We lost our home along with all of our belongings. Everything was a total loss from the fire.
+1:03 – We now see actual DRONE footage of the burned Chavez residence.
Ramon Chavez: There at the… uh… station where we lived. We lived on a Forest Service compound and fire station… and the entire compound was impacted. It was a total of five homes that were destroyed. Uhm… one was vacant, and the other four were occupied. Everything was a total loss.”
+1:11 – Another still photo of another destroyed home at the Bear Divide Station )
Interviewer: Ramon and his crew did everything they could to save the structures, but the fire was just too big.
+1:24 – Ramon Chavez speaking to the camera again.
Ramon Chavez: We pulled off of the line from where we were to go back up to the top to start to basically ‘prep’ and make sure that everything was in place because we… we… uh… anticipated the fire coming up and impacting the compound at some point the following day… which was Saturday ( July 23, 2016 )… which was when the station was… uh… impacted… and that’s when we lost all the homes. We were there… and we did everything we could up until the very last second without compromising our personal safety and the safety of our… our crew.
+1:35 – Video footage of the Chavez home BEFORE it burned and what appears to be footage of the fire approaching the Bear Divide Station itself. This might have been on Friday afternoon, since Chavez says above that he actually went there to the Bear Divide Station on Friday ‘prep’ in anticipation of what might happen (quote) “The following day” ( Saturday, July 23, 2016 ).
+1:46 – Interesting video of the compound and more destroyed structures. Lots of smoke. Fading light ( late evening? ) and fires still burning in the debris there.
The rest of the ‘interview’ focuses on the ‘aftermath’ and how Ramon and Bonnie and their 3 children are doing, and what their ‘plans’ are.
And the rest of the video is interlaced with more interesting ‘CAMERA DRONE’ footage taken post-burnover there at the Bear Divide Station.
————————————————————————————————–
NOTICE that US Forestry employee Ramon Chavez does NOT mention what he and the other firefighters did once they stopped “defending their homes up until the last second”. In this interview… Chavez himself makes no mention of having to RUN up to the Bear Divide barracks itself in order to survive the burnover.
But according to Ramon Chavez’s SISTER… she says he told HER that is exactly how they survived that day.
The NEXT post will be the on-camera interview with the other US Forestry employee, James Robledo, who was a crewman on Chavez’s US Forestry Engine E19-ANF. In THAT interview, Robledo himself says they became ( his word ) “TRAPPED”.
Well WTKTT your lack of wild fire understanding is not accurate.
Green Trees catch fire from Ladder fuels or flames that reach them. With no fuel close to the standing trees no flames reached them around the HS Barracks.
Blown embers normally do not torch trees alone.
Now the Trailer/Prefab homes that you can see in the Google Earth 3 together are another matter. Quite a bit of Brush and trees in and behind the Cinderblock fence.
Once those caught fire the then could and did leap from tree to tree. and caused more damage. You can see the green trees in the after photo.
Any way the other two homes Cinderblock Construction on the Compound that you can see on google did escape with minor damage to no damage.
History Fact–Cinderblock fences were put in around Homes on the Angeles NF Stations do to the Rattle Snake Problems, they are every where.
The people being called crew man that had trailer homes are actually Crew bosses or Squad bosses. The Captain and his Tank Truck Operator Assistant (Called a crewman) No crewman not supervisors have homes they live in the Barracks. I would guess the other two regular homes in the Google were the Superintendent and Asst. Basically Full Time people have access to Homes on a compound. or Trailer pads.
Not sure if the Trailers were Government owned or private? If you are renting from the Government you call it your home ( just terminology).
My use of the Propane tank was for orientation only. The heat from a burning structure would possibly cause the tank to explode. Normally they vent unless exposed to direct heat for some time they heat up then vent with more heat they can explode. The key is direct intense heat. A tree burning over them would flame out the leaves and not cause damage to the tank in most cases.
I guess they could have all deployed Shelters on the Heli port and taken their 50/50 chances. That seems to be their only other alternative at the time.
.
Almost forgot yes the Superintendent I talked to and know personally ( he was at the HS reunion this year) was the Superintendent for severial years at Bear Divide. He now lives in Glendale.
Thanks for responding… but did you get a chance to ask your ‘friend’ the following question I asked up above?…
Ask your ‘former HS Superintendent’ friend if he is aware of there ever being a discussion about ‘firewising’ that US Forestry compound… especially the area where they were ‘renting out’ those ‘residences’.
I think what you talk about in Fire wise was covered on the Compound annually. My Friend was totally shocked that any thing Burned. The Crew always spent their first month of May doing Brush clearance and grass around the Compound Structures.. Their was as well a Fuel Break around the compound 30 Ft wide as a buffer and location to Back fire This may have been what the crew was waiting to do when the Fire dictated they had no time.
What is being discussed and re-evaluated in Southern California and the rest of the State is a total revamp of Difensiable space and safe clearance. There was never the homes burned thru the 90’s that is happening to day I understand the Federal Government is revamping the Calculations on the Fire projection charts do to the critical increase in fire spread with the past 10 year drought..
The State requirements have not changed in 70 Years.
30 Ft. around Homes and 15 Ft. around out buildings. clearance of 10 ft. around Propane Tanks. Trim trees up 10 Ft off the Ground and remove ladder fuels with in the 30 Ft.
The New Drought conditions of the past 10 years are dictating a whole new concept in extreme fire and protecting structures.
I in my 33 carrier never saw the homes that are being destroyed today and the required clearance almost always was enough to save structures. There is a whole new ball game out there and it needs a new strategy. In Prevention and Suppression.
Thank you, Bob.
I agree that new strategies are needs… but they have to be based on new policies as well.
The only constant is change itself.
You do have to wonder why they ( Captain Ramon Chavez, Squad leader Robleno, etc. ) waited so long to even attempt whatever firing options were available to them.
According to US Forestry Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez himself… they were perfectly aware that the ‘Bear Divide Station was going to be ( Chavez’s own word ) “impacted” a full day BEFORE the Sand Fire actually arrived there.
Chavez even says he had left his other line assignment ( with permission ) on Friday, July 22, 2016 to go and do what he called ‘prep work’ at that Bear Divide Station… but no details yet on what that was all about.
The bottom line is that they waited too long on Saturday, July 22, 2016 and then still brought a knife to a gunfight and tried to battle the oncoming firestorm with hand tools and hoses.
Typo above.
The entrapment/burnover at the US Forestry Bear Divide Station was on Saturday, July 23… not Friday, July 22.
Ramon Chavez SAYS he went to the Station with his Engine E19-ANF on Friday, July 22, 2016 to do some kind of “prep work”… but the actual burnover and entrapment didn’t actually happen until the next afternoon on Saturday, July 23, 2016.
A Firing Operation has to have a go ahead by overhead.
I think some place they said they asked and were denied because the main fire was to far away.
Would have to look back at the beginning of this discussion.
It may have been on Wildfire today.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
August 26, 2016 at 1:01 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A Firing Operation has to have a go
>> ahead by overhead.
>>
>> I think some place they said they
>> asked and were denied because the
>> main fire was to far away.
>>
>> Would have to look back at the beginning
>> of this discussion.
I think you might be referring to something that Robert the Second ( RTS ) said further down in this ‘Chapter 23’… in-between his current fire assignments…
That ‘comment’ from RTS is here…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-345005
And here is what he seemed to ‘know’…
—————————————————
On August 20, 2016 at 8:59 am
Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
WTKTT, yes, the video clip from the HS Crew is only 6 seconds. I’m sure there are more. I sent it to you with hopes you’d be able to post it on IM. The Corrective Action by Pete Duncan within the SAFENET was nothing more than a rephrasing of the event and what occurred. It appears this one may be on its way to a coverup. I heard the HS wanted to fire off around the station early and were told it was too soon. Big mistake. It took less than 30 seconds to run up a chute at them.
————————————————
RTS said…
“I heard the HS wanted to fire off around the station early and were told it was TOO SOON. Big mistake. It took less than 30 seconds to run up a chute at them.”
So it DOES appear that US Forestry Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez and his crew of 4… and US Forestry employee and ‘Squad Leader’ James Robledo and HIS crew ( of uknown size ) WERE ‘ready’ to do firing operations there to try and protect their OWN homes…
…but SOMEONE ELSE was PREVENTING them from doing it… until it was too late to make any difference.
Those US Forestry employees who were allowed to be there trying to protect their own homes seemed to know fully well what their only chance was ( since no Retardant drops were even possible )… but it seems like someone ELSE had been PREVENTING them from doing what they knew needed to be done.
An ‘investigation’ would be able to find out WHO that ‘someone’ really was and help ‘contribute’ to the “Lessons Learned” that should come out of this close-call ‘entrapment’ there at that US Forestry Bear Divide station.
When I first read this statement from RTS, I wondered why a USFS fire station was located at the top of a chute? And if so, (for the view or whatever,) why was the entire compound not constructed and maintained in such a way that firefighters would not have to risk their lives defending it with a wildfire in proximity?
Woodsman
The Station has been there for a long time they added the HS crew roughly in the mid 60s. . It was a Helitack Base prior to the HS Crew and had an Engine base back into the 50s
To My Knowledge this is the first fire in a long time to hit that area.
Again extreme burning conditions seem to be playing HELL with a lot of towns and Structures Through out California and other Drought Areas.
What use to be good protection and clearance is turning into a Night Mare. Spread Factors and Flame Lengths are going beyond the Projection Charts.
Back Firing or new term Firing Out is a tricky situation especially when the Head of a Fire is coming Up Canyon at you.
Not sure why this was the station location sometimes the Stations were built where there were Springs that were developed for Water.
Note the two tanks up the Mountain above the Station.
** KHTS AM 1220
**
** VIDEO INTERVIEW WITH US FORESTRY FIREFIGHTER
** JAMES ROBLEDO… ( RAMON CHAVEZ’S NEIGHBOR. )…
Radio Station KHTS AM 1220 also did an on-camera interview with US Forestry Firefighter James Robledo. He was US Forestry employee and Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez’s next-door neighbor that at the US Forestry Bear Divide Station.
He was also ( apparently ) a ‘crewmember’ on Captain Ramon Chavez’s E19-ANF US Forestry Engine and helped Chavez ( and the entire E19 Crew ) try and defend those houses at that Station “until the last moment”, when they all had to RUN up to the Bear Divide Station main building in order to survive the Station burnover.
This is the interview where James Robledo himself says ( on camera ) that they ended up (quote) “TRAPPED UP THERE” during the burnover at the Station.
Robledo recalls being “TRAPPED” for at least 30 minutes.
YouTube Video Title…
Firefighter Family, Five Daughters Forced To Relocate After Sand Fire – KHTS News – Santa Clarita
Direct link to this KHTS AM 1220 YouTube VIDEO…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8iZnhvIQDE&list=PLW-NsE29a3OWeWG3LuBmpE8yM2vPQ0cDg
The ‘Interviewer’ was KHTS reporter Drake Hougo.
US Foresty Firefighter James Robledo and his wife are facing the camera.
The Robledos have 5 ( FIVE ) daughters.
The Robledos lost their family dog in the burnover.
Here is a TRANSCRIPT of that part of the relevant part of the VIDEO…
———————————————————-
+0:20
Interviewer: The Robledos were one of four firefighter familes that lost their
home in the devastating ‘Sand Fire’. Along with his neighbor,
Ramon Chavez, James Robledo helped fight the oncoming fire until it was TOO LATE.
He watched from a nearby hill as his family’s house burned down.
James Robledo: We were TRAPPED UP THERE for… I wanna say about 30 minutes
before you could even see anything. It went from day to night. When I was there fightin’ the fire… I saw it burn… and… uh… I knew we lost everything… but it didn’t really hit till the next day.
+0:40 – A still photograph of what appears to be the remains of both the
Chavez and Robledo residences still ‘on fire’ there at the Bear Divide Station.
Possible taken by James Robledo himself following the ‘entrapment’ and
the worst of the ‘burnover’
+0:54 – A flying DRONE CAMERA video of the destroyed Robledo residence
there at that US Forestry Bear Divide Station.
+1:00 – More post-burnover video of the destruction at that US Forestry Station.
————————————————————-
** BEAR DIVIDE HOTSHOTS – STATION INFORMATION AND PHOTOS
Contains recent photos of that ‘Bear Divide Station’, home to the ‘Bear Divide Hotshots’.
http://www.beardividehotshots.com/station.html
Photo of the ‘garage’…
http://www.beardividehotshots.com/images/2000/misc/bear_divide_crew_trucks.jpg
Photo of ‘add on’ to main building…
Notice the SHRUBS planted right next to the walls of the building, the tall trees, and the multiple BARBECUE GRILLS right by the building. Either these grills had their OWN Propane tanks… or they were actually tied’ into the nearby 1,000 ( ONE THOUSAND ) gallon tank seen in the satellite photos 19 feet off the corner of the ‘garage’…
So much for ‘firewising’ at this USFS facility.
http://www.beardividehotshots.com/images/2000/misc/bear_divide_crew_trucks.jpg
5 Galion Propane Tanks for Grills have no fire regulations for location from dwelling has nothing to do with Fire wise.
A 100 Gallon Propane tank must be a minimum of 15 Ft. from Dwellings.
So Much for your Knowledge of actual State Laws.
FIREWISINGWTKTT.
Woops 100 should be 1000 Gal.
** GOFUNDME PAGE FOR FIREFIGHTER ‘SERGIO TOSCANO’
The other firefighter known to have lost his residence during that July 23, 2016 ‘Bear Divide’ entrapment and burnover was named ‘Sergio Toscano’.
Unlike Ramon Chavez and James Robledo, Sergio Toscano was not part of
Ramon Chavez’s Engine E19-ANF Engine Crew.
Sergio Toscano was a ‘Lead Firefighter’ for the ‘Little Tujunga Hotshots’.
Also contains photos of destruction at Bear Divide, including one
of FF ‘Sergio Toscano’ surveying the damage…
https://www.gofundme.com/2g3dduf6
As of August 25… 458 people have donated $28,715 of $50k goal.
Sergio Toscano is a ‘Lead Firefighter’ for the Little Tujunga Hotshots.
They ( The Little Tujunga Hotshots ) were on assignment in the Cleveland National Forest ( Camp Pendleton in San Diego, California ) when the entrapment/burnover took place at the Bear Divide Station on July 23, 2016… so the HOTSHOTS that Ramon Chavez told his SISTER were helping defend the homes and became part of the ‘entrapment’ could not have been members of the ‘Little Tujunga Hotshot’ organization.
The ‘About’ text for Sergio Tuscano’s ‘GoFundMe’ page…
—————————————————————————
I am creating the page for a freind and fellow fireman. One of our firefighters lost his home during the Sand Fire on the Angeles National Forest on July 23, 2016.
Sergio Toscano, a Senior firefighter for the Little Tujunga Hotshots, lost his home when the Sand Fire burned through the Bear Divide Ranger station and destroying his home. Sergio has been a firefighter for the US Forest Service for the past four years. He took a lead firefighting position with the Little Tujunga Hotshots this year and prior to his time fighting fire was a US Marine for four years. Sergio has a young son who was with his mother at the time of the fire.
At the time his home was lost, Sergio was on assignment in the Cleveland National Forest near San Diego on a wildfire that burned over 2000 acres with no structures lost. He heard of his lost only after coming off the fireline and was immediately taken home to start the process of recovering what ever he can.
He is unaware that this page is being created for him and everything that is collected will go straight to him so he can begin to rebuild what he has lost. Any little help will be greatly appecieated and being a guy of little words, Sergio will be speechless at any generosity he receives. Thank you!
—————————————————————————
** GOFUNDME PAGE FOR USFS ENGINE E19-ANF CAPTAIN RAMON CHAVEZ
The ‘GoFundMe’ page created July 24, 2016 ‘on behalf of Bonnie Chavez’,
the wife of US Forestry employee and Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez.
This ‘GoFundMe’ page was created by ‘Cia Reyes’, who is the SISTER
of US Forestry Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez, and the one who told the media Ramon Chavez told HER they had to RUN to the ‘Bear Divide’ main station at the last moment on July 23, 2016 in order to survive the burnover there.
As of this writing ( August 25, 2016 ), 54 people have contributed $4,144 towards a top goal of raising $10,000.
https://www.gofundme.com/2g3kq9gk
The page also contains PHOTOS of the destruction there at that ‘Bear Divide’ Station.
** OFFICIAL ‘SAND FIRE OPERATIONS’ PERIMETER MAPS
These are the ACTUAL MAPS that are still sitting at the PUBLIC NIFC FTP distribution site for official ‘Operations’ regarding the ‘Sand Fire’.
The USFS and the NIFC maintain this PUBLIC ‘FTP site’ in order to distribute any/all ICS ‘Operations’ documents during any give fire season. No ‘password’ or ‘logon’ is required. It is a PUBLIC ‘FTP’ site.
NOTE: On BOTH of the ‘Operations Maps’ below, the actual ‘Bear Divide Station’
location is easy to find. It is always the large BLUE DOT with the map label ‘H-1’ right
off the southwest corner of the ‘Magic Mountain Wilderness Area’. The BLUE DOT
marks the exact location of the HELIPAD that was there on the grounds of that
‘Bear Divide Station’ off Little Tujunga Road.
The official ‘Sand Fire’ perimeter as of 1800 ( 6:00 PM ), July 23, 2016…
http://ftp.nifc.gov/incident_specific_data/calif_s/2016_Incidents/CA-ANF-003008_Sand/GIS/Products/20160723/OPS_E_land_20160723_1800_Sand_CAANF3008.pdf
The ‘Operations Map’ above shows the uncontained perimeter of the ‘Sand Fire’
approaching the Bear Divide Station from the EAST… but still some distance away
from it, even at 6:00 PM on Saturday, July 23, 2016.
The official ‘Sand Fire’ perimeter 12 hours later, as of 0600 ( 6:00 AM ), July 24, 2016…
http://ftp.nifc.gov/incident_specific_data/calif_s/2016_Incidents/CA-ANF-003008_Sand/GIS/Products/20160724/OPS_E_land_20160724_0600_Sand_CAANF3008.pdf
The map above shows how far the ‘Sand Fire’ had progressed in just 12 hours.
It obviously ‘burned over’ the Bear Divide Station from the EAST ( after jumping
over the Little Tujunga Road ) as the fire perimeter was pushing WEST.
** THE BEAR DIVIDE STATION WAS INSIDE OF AN
** AIR OPERATIONS ‘AVOIDANCE AREA’.
One of the obvious ‘questions’ regarding this attempt on the part of USFS employee and Captain of ‘Bear Divide’ Engine E19-ANF to save his own home and the home of his ‘squad leader’ James Robledo is WHY… with all the LEAD TIME they had… did they not receive any AIR SUPPORT to help ‘defend’ that US Forestry ‘Bear Divide Station’.
The following ‘official’ AIR OPERATIONS document for the ‘Sand Fire’ shows that the US Forestry’s ‘Bear Divide Station’ was right in the middle of an ‘official’ ‘Retardant Drop Avoidance Area’.
They were not ALLOWED to make any ‘retardant drops’ there in that ‘Avoidance Area’… even though their own USFS ‘Bear Divide Station’ needed to be ‘defended’ because it had not been ‘firewised’.
As with the ‘Operations’ maps linked to above… the BLUE DOT with the ‘H-1’ map label right to the LEFT of the first letter ‘A’ in the map label saying ‘Avoidance Area’ marks the actual HELIPAD that was there at that ‘Bear Divide’ Station.
http://ftp.nifc.gov/incident_specific_data/calif_s/2016_Incidents/CA-ANF-003008_Sand/GIS/Products/airops.pdf
NOTE: When you see a marked ‘Avoidance Area’ on any of these “Air Operations” on these official NIFC ‘Operations Maps’ on that official USFS FTP site… it goes back to the ‘agreement’ that USFS had to make when they were ordered by a Court to do that ‘Environmental and Health Impact for Aerial Retardants’ study ( which turned out to be a BOGUS report… but the Court accepted it, anyway ).
Even though USFS had agreed to REMOVE the ‘ferro cyanide’ anti-corrosion component of the retardant that was proven to have been the reason for the thousands and thousands of FISH the had been killing… USFS still had to agree to establish strict ‘Avoidance Areas’ where NO RETARDANT could be used due to the KNOWN ( and still UNKNOWN ) environmental and health impacts of aerial retardants.
So that’s why there was NO AIR SUPPORT for ‘Bear Divide’ Engine Captain Ramon Chavez and his crew there at that ‘Bear Divide Station’.
Their OWN ‘US Forestry Bear Divide Station’ was INSIDE and established ‘Avoidance Area’ for retardant drops.
The Canyon next to bear divide is a high quality water way for the LA Basin water program. severial drainages the feed out of the Angeles NF are designated as such.
Reply to Bob Powers post on August 26, 2016 at 4:39 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The Canyon next to bear divide is a high quality water way
>>for the LA Basin water program. severial drainages the feed
>> out of the Angeles NF are designated as such.
Thank you, Bob.
And regardless of the fact that US Forestry agreed to stop using any retardants with the KNOWN fish-killer ‘ferro cyanide’ anti-corrosion component… they STILL had to agree to ( as much as humanly possible ) NEVER drop this ‘retardant’ shit anywhere near critical waterways.
And so… to this day… pretty much EVERY ‘National Forest’ has ‘Avoidance Areas’ ( like the one on the Angeles National Forest ) where no retardant is ever to be dropped except in cases of extreme emergencies.
One of the big ‘fish kills’ with retardant drops was right there in California, in 2009, on the Santa Ynez River on the ‘Los Padres National Forest’. Lots of ‘endangered’ steelhead trout were killed.
As you know… the ‘Los Padres National Forest’ is just northwest of the ‘Angeles National Forest’ where this ‘Sand Fire’ recently was.
So it must have been KNOWN to US Forestry employee and Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez ( and everyone else associated with that ‘Bear Divide Station’ ) that there wasn’t even a chance of getting any ‘retardant’ drops there at that ‘Bear Divide Station’. Only ‘water drops’ from helicopters, if anything at all.
All the more reason for that Bear Divide Station ( and the residences there ) to have been ‘Firewised’ as best as possible.
I mean… it you already KNOW that if push comes to shove you won’t even be ABLE to get any ‘retardant’ drops at all.. no matter how much ‘Air Support’ is available… then that it all the more reason to make damn sure you are ‘Firewised’ as much as possible.
Here’s an article that mentions this PROMISE that US Forestry had to make to establish these ‘Retardant Drop Avoidance Areas’…
Live Science
Article Title: Does Flame Retardant Work?
Published: August 30, 2013 04:47pm ET
By Marc Lallanilla, Assistant Editor |
http://www.livescience.com/39345-does-flame-retardant-work.html
From the article…
——————————————————————
When confronted with a raging wildfire, the U.S Forest Service has several weapons in its firefighting arsenal, including ground crews who create firebreaks and aircraft that dump water and flame retardants.
But the use of flame retardants has come under increased scrutiny in recent years: While some question the cost-effectiveness of using the substances, environmental groups are concerned that the bright red chemical slurry can have a deadly effect on plants and wildlife.
“It looks good on television,” Andy Stahl, executive director of Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics (FSEEE) in Eugene, Ore., told LiveScience. However, “there’s no benefit to its use,” Stahl said.
There’s no hard evidence that flame retardants actually increase a firefighting crew’s initial success in containing a fire, limiting its spread or lowering the number of homes lost, Stahl explained. “None of these are improved by the use of fire retardant,” Stahl said.
What’s in retardants?
The flame retardants used in fighting wildland fires are very different from the retardants used in bedding, clothes and other household items. For fighting forest fires, retardants consist primarily of ammonium compounds such as ammonium phosphate, ammonium sulfate and others.
( NOTE: There are many other ‘chemicals’ included in retardant mixtures, some of which remain completely UNKNOWN because the companies that manufacture the retardants are allowed to keep these ‘other ingredients’ SECRET because of US Patent and Trade Secret Laws. The full array of chemicals used has never even been disclosed agencies tasked with doing Environmental and Human Health studies because of the same ‘Trade Secret’ laws ).
These compounds are also used in agricultural fertilizers. That, according to several researchers, is precisely the problem: When dumped into a wilderness area, these fertilizers stimulate the growth of certain weedy, fast-growing plants that outcompete slower-growing plant species, some of which are rare or endangered.
Additionally, if these compounds find their way into a stream or lake, the fertilizers can kill off fish and other aquatic species, causing a harmful algal bloom. These events reduce the amount of oxygen in a body of water and encourage the growth of toxic algae.
These environmental problems have been addressed by changes to the compounds used in the fire retardant slurry mixture, the AP reports, and despite the FSEEE’s contention that flame retardant is of limited effectiveness, the Forest Service maintains that the chemicals are essential to controlling blazes. “When enough people in enough places say retardant helps, we have to believe they’re not making it up,” Cecilia Johnson, an agency fire chemicals technical specialist, told the AP.
The Forest Service and groups like the FSEEE (which is largely made up of current and former Forest Service employees) won’t likely resolve their ongoing feud anytime soon. Stahl’s group has filed a number of lawsuits against the Forest Service, and these suits have resulted in some significant changes in the way the agency fights fires.
For example, to minimize impacts on aquatic life, the Forest Service has agreed to limit the use of flame retardant in areas within 300 feet of streams and lakes; the agency has also issued maps showing “retardant-specific avoidance areas” for each national forest.
“The forest service has committed to not dump retardant in those areas unless somebody’s life is in danger,” Stahl said. Whether that will actually happen in the midst of a raging inferno, however, is unclear, he said.
——————————————————————
** BEAR DIVIDE AND LITTLE TUJUNGA HOTSHOTS HAVE BEEN
** DEMOTED TO ‘TYPE 2 IA’ STATUS
In addition to it being known that the ‘Little Tujunga Hotshots’ were off ‘on assignment’ elsewhere on July 23, 2016… it appears the actual ‘Bear Divide Hotshots’ ( whose station was burned over during that burnover/entrapment ) were ‘elsewhere’ as well.
So it appears that the HOTSHOTS that Ramon Chavez says were part of the ‘defense’ effort and the ‘entrapment’ there could NOT have been from either the ‘Little Tujunga’ or the ‘Bear Divide’ Hotshot organizations.
Bear Divide Hotshots website – Their own ‘sit300’ report(s)…
SIT300 – SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA GEOGRAPHIC AREA
http://www.beardividehotshots.com/sit300.html
This document contains the actual ‘SIT300’ report ( Excel Spreadsheet )…
http://gacc.nifc.gov/oscc/predictive/intelligence/IS500.xls
Document above says that as of today ( August 24, 2016 ), both the ‘Bear Divide’ Hotshots AND the ‘El Cariso’ Hotshots have dropped back to ‘Type 2 IA ( Initial Attack )’ status versus regular ‘Type 1 IHC’ status.
When your crewman start going back to Collage you either get firefighter HS detailers from other regions or drop back based on number of Crewman.
Back in the day we managed to keep the crew to at least 20 we had 25 at the first of the year and planed pickup of HS from other regions to keep the crew going some times as late as the end of November.
Reply to Bob Powers post on August 26, 2016 at 8:20 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> When your crewman start going back to Collage you
>> either get firefighter HS detailers from other regions or
>> drop back based on number of Crewman.
Thank you, Bob.
I can’t find any documentation ( yet ) about WHEN both the “Little Tusunga Hotshots” and the “Bear Divide Hotshots” BOTH had to ‘drop back’ to just being listed as “Type 2 IA” crews this season… but it DOES appear that both organizations STARTED this season with full “Type 1 IHC” status.
So yea… it is ( relatively speaking ) getting ‘late in the season’… and the colleges have started their semesters again… so the ‘dropbacks’ very well could just have to do with ‘attrition’ and the loss of ( eligible ) crewman.
The ‘point’ here is that regardless of their current ‘status’ levels… it does NOT appear that the HOTSHOTS which Ramon Chavez apparently told his sister were ‘helping’ at the ‘Bear Divide Station’ ( and also involved in the entrapment ) were EITHER from the ‘Bear Divide Hotshots’ ( whose home base was that station itself ) OR the nearby “Little Tusunga Hotshots”.
I’m still trying to find out if there really were any HOTSHOTS involved in that entrapment at all… and if so… who they might have been.
It couldn’t have been a ‘full contingent’ of Hotshots… or the reported number of FFs involved in the ‘entrapment’ would have been up in the 25+ personnel range.
We KNOW that both Ramon Chavez’s E19-ANF Engine ( and its full crew of 5 ) were involved in the ‘entrapment’ together with whatever full ‘crew’ Roblado was the ‘squad leader’ of… so that already accounts for MOST ( if not ALL ) of the 14 firefighters known to have been involved in that ‘Bear Divide Station Entrapment’.
If there WERE any HOTSHOTS involved over and above these 2 crews… there weren’t many of them.
A HS Squad could be 10 with the Engine crew of maybe 4.
You said Roblado was listed as a Squad Boss he could have had his Squad with him.
If a HS crew goes below 18 they drop back from Type 1 to Type 2 or a IA Crew. They normally still have the 7 Ft 13/13 or more appointments who are some Year around (4 or 5)
Reply to Bob Powers post on August 27, 2016 at 7:45 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A HS Squad could be 10 with the Engine crew of
>> maybe 4.
Well… there doesn’t seem to be any ‘maybe’ about that.
The ‘photo’ that US Forestry Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez posted to his own PUBLIC Facebook page of his own ‘Engine 19’ and CREW has Captain Ramon Chavez himself taking the picture ( with his mobile phone )… and there are FOUR crewman standing in front of Engine 19.
It is a Type 3 Engine US Forestry Engine.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You said Roblado was listed as a Squad Boss he
>> could have had his Squad with him.
Again… according to the following article… there is no “could have had his Squad with him” about it.
The following article says he ( US Forestry Squad Boss James Robledo ) DID have what ‘Crew’ he is a ‘Squad Boss’ for WITH him on the afternoon of Saturday, July 23, 2016… when that entrapment/burnover took place at that Bear Divide Station.
The following article places BOTH US Forestry employees Ramon Chavez AND James Robledo there at that station… trying to save their OWN residences there… and it says they BOTH had their (quote) “Respective Crews” with them as well.
KHTS AM 1220
Article Title: Firefighter Family, Two Daughters Forced To Relocate After Sand Fire Destroys Home
Published: August 18, 2016
http://www.hometownstation.com/santa-clarita-news/breaking-news/fire-2/firefighter-family-five-daughters-forced-to-relocate-after-sand-fire-destroys-home-175355
From that article…
————————————————————
James Robledo and his family lived in a home on the Bear Divide Fire Station, off Sand Canyon Road.
On Saturday, July 23, flames began approaching the Forest Service compound, built amidst the rugged mountains of the Angeles National Forest.
James Robledo, and his neighbor, Ramon Chavez, battled the oncoming fire with their respective crews until the firefighters personal safety was at risk, forcing them to retreat to a nearby hillside.
Taking refuge in a cinder block building above their homes, James Robledo watched as flames engulfed and burned down his family’s home.
Once it was SAFE to leave, Robledo left the mountain to meet his wife and daughters, who were on vacation with their grandparents.
The next day, James, his wife, Tanya, and two of the girls returned to the site of their former house—now a pile of rubble, ash and lost memories. The oldest girl is currently staying with her biological father at his house in Santa Clarita. Two of the daughters stay with their biological mother due to split custody.Donate – Santa Clarita Disaster Coalition
Among the irreplaceable, the family lost their dog, a chocolate lab named Benny, who was a source of comfort and love to the girls.
————————————————————
** US FORESTRY EMPLOYEE SEARCH
The following is just more proof that Ramon Chavez and James Robledo ( who became entrapped along with 12 other firefighers at that Bear Divide Station ) were, in fact, US Forestry employees, and that James Robledo was, in fact, a ‘squad boss’ and not just a ‘grunt’.
Just Google the words: US Forestry employee search
And this link appears as the first ‘Search’ result…
http://www.fs.fed.us/about-agency/contact-us/employee-search
On that page, enter any NAME and it will tell you what ‘postion’ they
( currently ) hold within US Forestry.
* Search results for “Ramon Chavez”…
Name: Ramon Chavez
Title: Firefighter
Location: Region 5 – Pacific Southwest (Calif., Hawaii, Guam, Trust Territories)
R5,Angeles NF,Los Angeles River RD
Contact: 661-269-2808 x (phone)
Email: ramonchavez (at) fs.fed.us
* Search results for “James Robledo”…
Name: James Robledo
Title: squad boss
Location: Region 5 – Pacific Southwest (Calif., Hawaii, Guam, Trust Territories)
R5,Angeles NF,Los Angeles River RD
Contact: 818-362-1216 x (phone)
Email: jrobledo (at) fs.fed.us
Followup…
** JAMES ROBLEDO HAD HIS OWN CREW…
** AND THEY ALSO BECAME INVOLVED IN THE ENTRAPMENT?
James Robledo’s US Forestry ‘Employee search’ lookup states that he was, in fact, a “squad boss” and not just a “grunt”… and the followng article suggests that even though a photo posted by Ramon Chavez himself shows James Robledo as part of his ‘Engine E19-ANF’ crew at one time… that on the day of the burnover/entrapment, James Robledo was in charge of his OWN “Crew”… which he ( like Ramon Chavez ) brought to the ‘Bear Divide’ station to try and help save his own home there.
The following article says…
“James Robledo, and his neighbor, Ramon Chavez, battled the oncoming fire with their RESPECTIVE crews”
Key phrase: “RESPECTIVE crews”
As in… they each were in charge of separate CREWS.
The article then confirms they ( BOTH Crews ) had to RETREAT to the main building there at the ‘Bear Divide’ compuound in order to survive the burnover.
“Taking refuge in a cinder block building above their homes, James Robledo watched as flames engulfed and burned down his family’s home.”
KHTS AM 1220
Article Title: Firefighter Family, Two Daughters Forced To Relocate After Sand Fire Destroys Home
Published: August 18, 2016
http://www.hometownstation.com/santa-clarita-news/breaking-news/fire-2/firefighter-family-five-daughters-forced-to-relocate-after-sand-fire-destroys-home-175355
From that article…
————————————————————
James Robledo and his family lived in a home on the Bear Divide Fire Station, off Sand Canyon Road.
On Saturday, July 23, flames began approaching the Forest Service compound, built amidst the rugged mountains of the Angeles National Forest.
James Robledo, and his neighbor, Ramon Chavez, battled the oncoming fire with their respective crews until the firefighters personal safety was at risk, forcing them to retreat to a nearby hillside.
Taking refuge in a cinder block building above their homes, James Robledo watched as flames engulfed and burned down his family’s home.
Once it was SAFE to leave, Robledo left the mountain to meet his wife and daughters, who were on vacation with their grandparents.
The next day, James, his wife, Tanya, and two of the girls returned to the site of their former house—now a pile of rubble, ash and lost memories. The oldest girl is currently staying with her biological father at his house in Santa Clarita. Two of the daughters stay with their biological mother due to split custody.Donate – Santa Clarita Disaster Coalition
Among the irreplaceable, the family lost their dog, a chocolate lab named Benny, who was a source of comfort and love to the girls.
————————————————————
SIDENOTE: With all the time they ( Chavez, Robledo and their ‘respective CREWS’ ) were actually THERE at that ‘Bear Divide’ Station and just ‘waiting’ for the fire to arrive… you have to wonder why ‘Benny’ ( the chocolate lab ) ended up having to DIE in the fire. You would think Robledo ( or SOMEONE ) would have had plenty of time to get ‘Benny’ up to the main building or the garage. Poor ‘Benny’.
** RAMON CHAVEZ’S ANGELES NATIONAL FOREST ENGINE E-19
** THE ONLY USFS ENGINE ‘ASSIGNED’ TO THE BEAR DIVIDE STATION
Proof that Type 3 Engine E19-ANF is, in fact, assigned to operate out of the ‘Bear Divide’ Station on the Angeles National Forest.
This is the actual ‘Engine’ that US Forestry employee Ramon Chavez was the ‘Captain’ of during the entrapment/burnover at the ‘Bear Divide Station’ on July 23, 2016.
http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/bigpines/WrightwoodScannerFreqs/FireStationLocations.html
——————————————————————————-
Fire Stations and Apparatus
Agency Identifiers…
ANF – ANGELES NATIONAL FOREST
Station Equipment / Crews…
ANF – 19 – BEAR DIVIDE E19, Crew 1 (Bear Divide Hotshots)
——————————————————————————-
There is only ONE ‘Engine’ listed as being ‘assigned’ to the ‘Bear Divide Station’… and it was, in fact, Ramon Chavez’s Type 3 E19-ANF Engine.
And that ‘Bear Divide Station’ was, in fact, also the HOME BASE for the Type 1 IHC ‘Bear Divide Hotshots’ ( who were apparently all off on another assignment when the July 23, 2016 entrapment and burnover took place ).
** RAMON CHAVEZ’S PUBLIC FACEBOOK PAGE
Just more confirmation that Ramon Chavez was, in fact, the ‘Captain’ of US Forestry Engine E19-ANF of the ‘Angeles National Forest’… and the only USFS Engine operating out of that US Forestry ‘Bear Divide’ station where he also LIVED with his wife, Bonnie, and their 3 children.
Ramon Chavez’s PUBLIC Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/ray.chavez.982
Ramon Chavez’s PUBLIC ‘About’ information…
Works at: BEAR DIVIDE at USDA Forest Service ( since 2003 to present )
Married to: Bonnie Chavez ( since April 4, 2009 ).
Also… a direct link to a PUBLIC photo Ramon Chavez posted to his PUBLIC Facebook page showing US Forestry ‘Engine 19’ of the ‘Angeles National Forest’ ( E19-ANF ) stationed at the US Forestry’s BEAR DIVIDE facility.
The photo also shows his FOUR crewman ( as of April 23, 2014 ).
His neighbor, US Forestry employee James Robledo, is standing there with that E19 Engine Crew, second from the right, with his arms folded, sunglasses, and a ballcap.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=839997116015232&set=ecnf.100000148535183&type=3&theater
Direct link to another PUBLIC photo that Ramon Chavez posted to his PUBLIC Facebook page on November 4, 2012. He is wearing standard US Forestry ‘dress’ attire. Shirt with green tie and brass BADGE on pocket.
His BADGE says “Ramon Chavez – Angeles National Forest”.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=540775822604031&set=ecnf.100000148535183&type=3&theater
And also… from his PUBLIC Facebook ‘Timeline’… confirmation that Ramon Chavez had been a USFS employee assigned to that ‘Bear Divide’ station since 2003…
https://www.facebook.com/ray.chavez.982/timeline/story?ut=32&wstart=-2051193600&wend=2147483647&hash=839996079348669&pagefilter=3&ustart=1
———————————————————————————–
Ramon Chavez – Wednesday – December 31, 2003 at 2:00 PM
Started Working at USDA Forest Service – 2003 – BEAR DIVIDE
———————————————————————————–
Ramon Chavez and his wife Bonnie lost the home they had previously been living in during the 2009 ‘Station Fire’… and it appears that is when Ramon Chavez elected to start living on the ‘Bear Divide’ Station itself.
Sept. 25, 2015, Wilhoit: Jeffrey Blood, 45, shot by YCSO Deputies Dakota Brinkley and Brandon Warren and State Trooper Christopher Wilson. Blood was at a party at his home in the 9200 block of South Steven Trail, where he was reportedly shooting in the back yard. The three officers ordered him to drop the gun. When he threatened them, they shot him.3
Lucked out today, I did not get shot. I got stuck on 89 when I turned around–the ground is soft from recent rains so I could not back up, Deputy Morales was first on the scene since some one called said there is a guy. Morales is one fine deputy–was there when I was coptered out with a heart attack –said he would pull me out of the ditch but rules won’t let them help you. That young deputy showed up later 24 years of age, and had me looking at his pencil like I was drunk. I told him give me a breathalizer since my eyes did not move the way he wanted. Well hell, nothing so they went on since I had called Joy to bring a jack an shovel. They made sure I had water, and offered to get me some so When do I ever drive without a handy man jack and shovel–the one time I am going in to Wickenburg to get a wood spliter. Life is good, but be careful.
Do not mess with Mr. Brinkley–he might be young but he already had a recent kill–Joy posted it. You wonder how that people go out into the country places and have to shoot a man dead. Seems like the new video age people are ready to shoot you in a heartbeat. Joy thinks it is due to the video games, but I have no opinion–likely Mr. Brinkley felt threatened. If a man points a gun at you, you better shoot fast.
Brings to mind, Will LePoint–French man had us pinned down shooting near us with his 22 rifle about 75 yards distance. Bullets were pinging off old well rigs and metal near us. I returned fire with my 45, but not directly at him, but did ventilate his tin roof. Will quit shooting then so there was no reason to kill him. See, a friendly return fire stopped it all and later Will and I became friends. He told me he was shooting our way just to keep us sharp. I think it was his bad Vodka that had him doing it.
I better mention this was around 1981, long time ago, so statutes of limitations–Will is OK,
See how the world has changed–The sheriff was called because I was stuck in a ditch. The asshole that called the sheriff did not stop and offer aid, but instead caused me trouble. This is your new mentality. Had I called the sheriff on Will, he likely would have been shot dead by a trigger happy deputy or minimally spent years in a penitentiary. These days people have lost perspective of life–Dog eat dog, fuck you attitude. Just like the 90 year old that was turned in maybe 5 houses down the street from me. I have passed her yard sale shit, even bought a painting for $20 and a couple other things from her. She has had a recent heart attack, but neighbors here turned her into county so they put a big thing on her door to clean up her shit. (Was it the same one that turned me in for my dangerous wild chickens?) Good Lord, why do that to some widow on her last legs? Joy and I offered to help her clean up because of her big county sign ordering her to do so. . But she says, no, she has not long to live and has lived her all her life as a free person doing what is fine on her own property. The county can go to hell. I understand–but now this is the new world. The horror story of where people instead of helping someone like that would call authorities to see what damage they can do. Where do these people that do that to the elderly come from? Some from California–others I do not know. Not real honest and freedom loving Americans for sure.
Say do not misread this. Two men did stop, elderly folk, and though they did not know me, gladly hooked a chain on my 73 chevy truck and had me out in a jiffy. They were in my age bracket so did not have to call a sheriff, and knew exactly what to do to remedy the situation. I met Joy on the way up Yarnell Hill, my new dog pissed and puked and diarrhea ed in my cookie cutter roller skate Versa Note Nissan on the way down. Joy was not happy about that, but hell, the dog couldn’t help it.
Bob, a nice guy, never killed one of his crew–but no different that us all. We try to keep above board, please the FS and big shots, or else.
WTKTT
for some more clarity on the Compound.
My friend past HS Supr.
The propane tank is sitting behind the Parking Garage.
The large building to the right is the Office, Mess hall and Barracks.
They did not burn.
There was brush clearance and Roads around them.
Hope that helps
See a longer ‘Reply’ posted above as a new ‘parent’ comment…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-345373
Reply to Woodsman post on August 24, 2016 at 4:37 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I actually can imagine it as I witness a portion of the absurdity each year.
>> If I had a dollar for every wannabe city firefighter that wants to use
>> me & my agency for red card quals so they can get in the action, I would
>> be able to take early retirement & wouldn’t need a pension check.
Have any of these ‘wannabee’ city firefighters just ‘jonesing’ for their ‘red-card’
quals so they can get ‘in on all this Unified Command $$$$$ action’ actually ever
OFFERED you a ‘dollar’ ( or more? ) if you would just ‘sign their little taskbooks’?
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Subsequently I annually lose my voice telling them NO!
I hear ya… but seriously… any of them ever OFFER you ‘a dollar’ ( or more ) to say YES?
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Alas, some find someone else who let’s them in the system & they end
>> up on the fire lines across the land. You can’t fix stupid.
But you CAN ( SHOULD ) make it harder for them to GET the ‘qualifications’.
And by YOU… I don’t mean YOU.
I mean the people responsible for this whole “Will someone please sign my taskbook
that says I know how to do something” revolving turnstyle approach to WFF training.
No. No one has ever offered me any money to sign their taskbook or help them get a red card.
I make those who seek a red card go through the proper procedure ie: they can grab a shovel & start from the bottom like me. Do I have attitude & a chip on my shoulder with these inquiries? You damn right I do! I however, do what I can for those willing to do it the right way. I’m not very polite to those that endeavor to cheat the system. (Most don’t think they are cheating because of massive egos) I wish I had more pull to change unearned quals but my power is limited. That doesn’t keep me from trying. One major problem is some municipal firefighters truly believe they are more qualified than they actually are due to being a big shot in their world when it’s not the case at all. We are seeing the effects of this over & over these days. It’s crap.
I’m just one wff that has managed to gain a significantly high fireline leadership position through work, following procedure, & time. It should take a long time to progress through the system. Others find ways to skirt the rules. That’s fraud.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on August 24, 2016 at 5:43 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> One major problem is some municipal firefighters truly believe
>> they are more qualified than they actually are due to being a
>> big shot in their world when it’s not the case at all. We are seeing
>> the effects of this over & over these days. It’s crap.
I can easily see how some ‘Engine Captain’ from the structural side might get his/her CRWB and/or DIVS taskbook fired up… and expect someone to just ‘sign off’ on it the very first time he/she completes a ‘Unified Command’ assignment on a Wildfire of any size.
They probably come INTO the assignment thinking… “Hell… I got this. I run Engines / Crews all the time. No big whoop. Just find the houses and hose ’em down. Hey… somebody wanna sign this stupid ‘Taskbook’ for me?”
CAWRT comes to mind as well.
Conduct your OWN ‘classes’ and ‘refreshers’… have everyone show up… and have the ones that already have the red-card ratings just ‘sign off’ on the taskbooks for the ones that don’t. Revolving-door turnstyle approach to ‘training’.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> It should take a long time to progress through the system.
>> Others find ways to skirt the rules. That’s fraud.
Speaking of ‘Have your own classes and get people’s taskbooks signed’…
One of the only FEW ‘DIVS Trainee’ assignments that Eric Marsh had was actually getting DIVS credit for just ‘coordinating’ some field exercises at one of the ‘Arizona Wildfire and Management Academy’ things at that Emery Riddle Aviation School outside of Prescott.
A ‘school’ that HE, himself, started with one of his former wives from the living room of their trailer, before he went to work for the Prescott Fuels Crew.
They organize this AWIMA thing as if it is an ‘Incident’… and all the teachers and management assume standard ICS ‘positions’ for that one week of ‘classes’… and these ‘bogus ICS assignments’ actually then COUNT towards ‘Trainee’ signoffs in their ‘Taskbooks’ for those positions ( Like IC and OPS and DIVS and yada, yada, yada ).
What a racket.
The person who actually ‘signed off’ on Eric Marsh’s FINAL ‘evaluation’ trainee assignment for the red-card position of DIVS ( Division Supervisor )… was none other than Aaron Hulburd of the nearby Prescott National Forest.
So the man who would eventually record Eric Marsh’s last known words with his ‘Helmet Camera’ was actually the last person to ‘evaluate’ Marsh for his ability to be a competent DIVS… and the one who ‘recommended’ that ‘this trainee’ ( Marsh ) be APPROVED to function in that capacity.
Woodsman, this world works on fraud. As a manager of a half way house for recovering alcoholics and drug addicts I was told to use all government funds possible else the next time funds might be cut. See, what these fire Chiefs, l
Yarnell group do not get it is that the citizen needs to start looking into how their funds are treated We now are becoming more aware of how our funds are abused, well that is if we are a concerned tax payer..
Woodsman, you have to like your input. I agree, keep those city firemen to their work. There are very few that would understand a wild fire, just as a wild land fire fighter has not business trying to use his Pulaski and risking his life to get to a damn house fire to do it. Common sense says if you want a city fireman on the job, you better have a leash tied to him.
Look at the back burn here laid out by our local firemen. It back fired for sure and best I can tell the later wild land fire fighters had to come in to make line to keep the back burn from destroying more than it did. We wonder how city fire men can make decisions about wild land fires with their limited knowledge in that area. Well Joy is looking more closely into the Tenderfoot Fire, but yet to get the FOIA reports–there has been plenty of delay on that, and I can guarantee it will have redactions abundant.
**
** ‘ARIZONA 100 CLUB’ EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR ( SHARON KNUTSON-FELIX )
** FORCED TO RESIGN OVER SHENANIGANS WITH ‘GRANITE MOUNTAIN’ MONEY
>> On August 23, 2016 at 4:58 pm, Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> Arizona 100 Club-interesting article by azcentral about investigation
>> of the 100 Club resulting in resignation of Sharon Felix.
Thanks for the ‘heads up’ on that, Diane.
Here’s just ONE of the articles now hitting the ‘wire’…
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: 100 Club of Arizona questions its own spending on Granite Mountain Hotshots’ families
Published: 5:06 p.m. MST August 22, 2016 – By Robert Anglen
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2016/08/21/arizona-100-club-non-profit-admits-granite-mountain-hotshot-donations-misspent-yarnell-hill-fire/87414628/
From that article….
——————————————————————————
The board of the 100 Club of Arizona, which collected $4.6 million for families of 19 firefighters who died at Yarnell Hill, raised concerns about the executive director’s spending and management decisions, according to its president.
One of the key organizations responsible for managing those donations now questions how some of the money was used, with hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on sightseeing trips, high-end restaurants and hotels for hotshots’ families.
The 100 Club of Arizona collected $4.6 million for families of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots. The non-profit’s board president said some spending decisions could damage the public’s opinion of the organization, which has been providing financial support to families of police officers and firefighters killed or injured in the line of duty since 1968.
An Arizona Republic investigation found concerns over spending and management decisions — including the termination of a bookkeeper who first raised questions about expenses — led to an internal AUDIT and the RESIGNATION of Sharon Knutson-Felix, the 100 Club’s longtime executive director.
The Arizona 100 Club is overseen by a volunteer board of more than a dozen community leaders and a four-member executive team that includes the executive director.
“There were a series of management decisions made by Sharon that looked and felt improper,” 100 Club board President Stephen Horrell Jr. said. “(The issues) are going to start and stop with Sharon and the board’s reaction to what we need to do so it will never, ever happen again.”
——————————————————————————
There have been ‘rumors’ ( and some evidence ) of these kinds of ‘financial shenanigans’ going on with the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ since shortly after the Yarnell tragedy… and the fact that it all might only be beginning to come to light now ( and the ongoing Shakespearean aspects of this entire tragedy ) just brings a particular quote to mind…
“Foul deeds will rise, Though all the earth o’erwhelm them, to men’s eyes”
Hamlet ( 1.2.256 )
This could end up just being the ‘scratching of the surface’ when it comes to this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ and the way it has handled the public donations.
They have said over and over ( in the press ) that they have provided ‘assistance’ to ALL of the Granite Mountain family members… but it is still reported that the biological mother of deceased Grant McKee has never seen ONE SINGLE DIME of even just the “Line of Duty Death Benefit” that this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ was claiming they had already ‘delivered’ to ALL the ‘immediate family members’ just 72 hours after the tragedy.
There have always been ‘reports’ of just CERTAIN ‘family members’, and people who were NOT even actual legal ‘family members’ ( like just girlfriends and/or fiances of dead Hotshots ) getting ‘preferential treatment’… while other legitimate DIRECT family members were receiving NOTHING.
More to come on this, I’m sure.
Followup…
So… the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ board President Stephen Horrell Jr. is now saying…
“(The issues) are going to START and STOP with Sharon and the board’s reaction to what we need to do so it will never, ever happen again.”
Looks like they ( the Board ) really think all they need to do is throw Sharon Knutson-Felix ‘under the bus’… and that will be the end of it.
We all know things are NEVER ‘that simple’.
So more to come on this… I’m sure.
Diane… the following is a question you asked not long ago which I really have been meaning to answer…
>> On August 5, 2016 at 4:37 pm, Diane Lomas asked…
>>
>> If the 100 Club is non-profit with public donations isn’t there
>> an obligation to distribute funds equally?
The SHORT answer is… “No”.
Just because an organization is a ‘non-profit’ does not AUTOMATICALLY mean they are REQUIRED to ‘distribute’ anything at all in any kind of ‘equal manner’.
Non-profits ARE required to “live up to their own chartered purpose”… and they need to stay within their own ‘mission statements’… but the actual nuts-and-bolts of doling out ‘donations’ is usually left up to them.
Even the ‘Red Cross’ is only REQUIRED to ‘distribute’ a certain percentage of the donations it receives towards the ‘stated purposes’ of the organization.
However… that being said… there ARE times when a ‘non-profit’ IS supposed to distribute every penny being ‘donated’ in an ‘equal manner’… if that is what they, themselves, ADVERTISED they were going to do when they kick up some kind of ‘special donation’ drive.
And there WAS such a thing ‘kicked up’ by this Arizona 100 Club.
There WAS a ‘special bank account’ that was set up and ADVERTISED ( by them ) shortly after the incident that they SAID was specifically for the ‘family members’ only and that donations to THIS ‘special account’ WOULD be ‘distributed equally’ to all of the 19 families.
If that is the STATED PURPOSE of such a ‘special account’… then to do otherwise then falls into the plain-old-vanilla category of ‘fraud’.
But even with such a STATED PURPOSE for a ‘special account’ like that… the organization is still allowed ( and even expected ) to ‘exercise some discretion’.
Example: The term ‘Family Members’ is pretty generic… so even with such a STATED PURPOSE of ‘equal distribution to all Family Members’… the organization still gets to decide who is ( or is NOT ) to be considered a ‘Family Member’ and part of the ‘equal distribution’. Sisters, Brothers, Cousins, Aunts, Uncles, Fiances’, Girl/BoyFriends etc. would not usually be ‘included’ in such a definition even for a special fundraising effort like that.
So there were ‘decisions’ still being made not only with regards to ‘who gets what coming from the GENERAL donations that ‘Arizona 100 Club’ was receiving… but also with regards to this ‘SPECIAL ACCOUNT’ that had the STATED purpose of ‘equal distribution to all Family Members’.
And there really WERE these ‘Multiple Sources of Donations’ that this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ was involved with. SOME people were donating directly to the ‘General Fund’ of that organization, and some people were donating directly to this ‘SPECIAL ACCOUNT’ they had also set up to receive ‘donations’ SPECIFICALLY for Granite Mountain ‘Family Members’. They had ( supposedly ) even set up the ‘account’ so that donations could be specifically ear-marked for specific GM ‘Families’, if that’s what the donor wanted to do.
Where the rubber meets the road is in the ‘bookkeeping’ and the ‘accounting’, and
whether all that money ( and who it was going to, for what ) remained ‘traceable’.
Well… the AZCENTRAL investigation has revealed the following…
———————————————————————————–
Scant information is available publicly about the money the Arizona 100 Club gives to survivors. The Form 990s non-profits are required to fill out annually for the Internal Revenue Service do not require individual itemization of recipients, only the type of benefit and the number of people who received them.
The 100 Club tax returns account for money spent on hotshot survivors in a single line: “Benefits to survivors.” Its audited financial statements read much the same way, boiling down benefits to a line item called “Granite Mountain Hotshots Families Assistance.”
———————————————————————————–
So even their own ‘financial statements’ make it hard to know what they were ( and still ARE ) REALLY doing with all that money.
Maybe the following is ‘better’ example of what I was trying to say.
The ‘mission statement’ for this duly-registered not-for-profit ‘Arizona 100 Club’ thing DOES say that they provide ‘generic support’ to the surviving family members of officers and fireman killed in the line of duty.
But the AZCENTRAL article now reveals things like them just ‘deciding’ to buy the lone SURVIVOR of the Yarnell tragedy ( Brendan McDonough ) a NEW TRUCK.
It also seems obvious ( now ) that they were always the ones PAYING for Brendan McDonough’s PTSD therapy.
So even though Brendan McDonough did not DIE in the Yarnell fire… and he, himself, was not an ACTUAL ‘Family Member’ of any of the Hotshots who DID lose their lives in the line of duty… it would NOT have been totally ‘out of line’ for them to be ‘supporting’ Brendan and buying him TRUCKS ( or anything else )… as long as they felt they were fulfilling a ‘support’ role consistent with their ‘mission statements’.
However… it DOES matter where the MONEY for ‘Brendan’s Truck’ was actually COMING from.
If it was ‘coming from’ their own ‘General Fund’… then that is money they really are allowed to ‘decide what to do with’ as long as they stay within their ‘chartered purpose’ and ‘mission statement’.
But if the money for Brendan’s new TRUCK came from this SPECIAL ACCOUNT that was advertised as being for ‘Family Members of deceased GM Hotshots’ only… well… then that’s a problem. They would THEN be using ‘public donations’ ( made to that special account ) for things OTHER than the ‘stated purpose’ for THOSE donations.
But, apparently, the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ bookkeeping was so ‘wonky’ that there is really no way to tell if they were doing things like that.
It looks like they WERE just treating ALL of the money that was ‘available’ to them as if it was all just in the ‘General Fund’.
Over the years, If I ever learned anything, it is to give directly to those in need. Now and then you get fooled, but it does not matter to the heart. True, I think, the Red Cross, United Way, and a few others do their good works, but still you never make a mistake giving directly to a person in need. If they take wrongly it is on them not you.
Another ‘Arizona Republic’ article related to the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ story.
This one is from ‘E.J. Montini’ of AZCENTRAL…
He points out ( and rightly so ) that even this latest ‘investigation’ could just be the “tip of the iceberg”… since the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ still hasn’t ACTUALLY provided a copy of the ‘audit’ that took place and still REFUSES to disclose exactly where all the ‘Granite Mountain’ money actually went.
If this Sharon-Knutson Felix person really did have the ‘complete authority’ to do things like buy back wedding dresses from fiances’ for $1,000 ( with not even an accounting of what then HAPPENED to this ‘alleged’ wedding dress )… then that literally IS just the “tip of the iceberg”. We are talking about MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars here… not just an arbitrary decision to buy some $1,000 wedding dress off someone.
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: Montini: 100 Club must be 100 percent transparent to restore trust
Published: 5:05 p.m. MST August 22, 2016 – By EJ Montini
http://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/ej-montini/2016/08/22/arizona-100-club-yarnell-hill-fire/89108630/
From that article…
———————————————————————————
One of the most trusted – even venerated – charities in the Valley is the 100 Club, with its stated mission “to provide immediate financial assistance to families of public safety officers and firefighters who are seriously injured or killed in the line of duty, and to provide resources to enhance their safety and welfare.”
An expansive article by The Arizona Republic’s Robert Anglen calls into questions some of the financial decisions made by the club in providing assistance to families of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots lost in the Yarnell Hill fire. Internally there were concerns if the donated money was spent properly. Club officials spoke to Anglen about this.
Still, the most troubling aspect of Anglen’s report is a line reading:
“Although 100 Club officials confirmed all expenses reported by The Republic, they were unwilling to provide a line-item accounting of expenditures for hotshot families, saying financial disclosure laws do not require them to report how money donated from the public was spent.”
Trust. Trust is everything. And the only way to ensure trust is transparency.
Anglen reports that Internal Revenue Service reports don’t require individual itemization and that the club didn’t offer it. Now that there have been questions about expenditures by the club that should change. The club should go above and beyond what is legally required and do simply what is right.
Open the books. Keep them open. Line by line. Expenditure by expenditure. Put it online for everyone and anyone to see.
Why not?
The public wants assist and first responders and their families who need help. But they deserve a little reassurance about how the money is spent.
Stephen Horrell Jr., the board president of the 100 Club, outlined a number of procedures implemented to restore the public’s sense of trust in the organization.
That’s not difficult.
All the 100 Club needs to do is to be 100 percent transparent 100 percent of the time.
———————————————————————————
And NONE of these articles even begin to address some of the things that have been ‘reported’… such as…
1. At least one of the direct biological parents of one of the deceased Hotshots ( Grant McKee’s mother Marcia McKee ) has reported NEVER receiving one single dime from this ‘Arizona 100 Club’… and that includes even this ‘automatic’ ‘Line of Duty Death Benefit’ ( $15,000 ) which is one of the ‘prime directives’ of this organization. The ‘Arizona 100 Club’ said on their own website, just 4 days after the tragedy, that they had ALREADY distributed this automatic $15,000 LODD benefit to ALL of the family members of ALL of the deceased Hotshots… but at least one ( are there others? ) says it ‘never happened’… much less ANY other support whatsoever.
2. There are NO QUOTES ( Good, bad or ugly ) in the ‘article’ from ANY of the family members themselves. Is that because they were actively REFUSING to discuss any of this… or is it because the reporter didn’t even bother to talk to any of the ‘family members’ themselves. Yes… some would probably ‘praise’ the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ for things they received and help supplied… if they were some of the ones that stayed on Sharon-Knutson Felix’s GOOD side… but others might reveal that if you did NOT stay on this woman’s good-side… then you got exactly JACK SHIT from the ‘Arizona 100 Club’.
3. Does ANY of the ‘arbitrary decision making’ detailed in this article have ANYTHING to do with the fact that 2 of the ‘Designated Family Support’ persons ( Someone named J.P. Vicente and someone named Ray Maoine ) were both specifically asked by some of the GM Family Members to NOT attend the court-mandated Question/Answer session held back on February 5, 2016? The J.P. Vicente guy was named ( by Sharon-Knutson Felix ) as Arizona 100 Club’s ‘Firefighter of the Week’ for his ( supposed ) ‘support of the GM Family Members’… but then the same J.P. Vicente ‘Family Support’ guy ended up having the POLICE called on him by the Superintendent of the Prescott Pioneer Cemetery.
And THAT ‘incident’, where Vicente had the POLICE called on him, also had something to do with the ‘shape’ and ‘construction’ of the ‘Memorial’ and the placement of future gravesites for future GM Family members… which the Arizona Republic article now reveals were ‘gravesites’ that were directly PAID FOR by this ‘Sharon-Knutson Felix’ woman.
So what really WAS the connection between this ‘Family Support’ person named J.P. Vicente ( who had the POLICE called on him ) and this ‘Sharon-Knutson Felix’ person?
Whatever is still ‘missing’ from this ‘investigation’ into this ‘Arizona 100 Club’… such as the actual ‘details’ behind expenditure entries like this one…
$456,000 for memorials. The 100 Club helped pay expenses for various memorials to the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
( Really? WHICH ‘memorials’? WHERE?… and WHAT ‘part’ of them? )
…if you read ‘all the lines’ and also ‘in-between the lines’ of this most recent investigation in the ‘Arizona 100 Club’… it basically ‘confirms’ what has already been both ‘reported’ and ‘suspected’ for quite some time.
That this Sharon Knutson-Felix person was running that organization and dispensing the millions and millions of PUBLIC DONATIONS like she was the ‘owner’ of ALL of it… and answerable only to herself.
Even the organization’s CREDIT CARD(S) had HER personal NAME on them… and not the name of the not-for-profit organization itself.
So… if you stayed on HER ‘good side’… then maybe you got some ‘help’ ( $$$$$ ) and some ‘invitations’ to all the trips to New York with expense accounts and FREE ‘gravesite’ plots at the Pioneer Cemetery and who-knows-what-else.
If you did NOT ‘play ball’ and stay on HER ‘good side’… you likely got NOTHING.
And I still don’t think the General PUBLIC, who were the ones SENDING her those ‘millions and millions of dollars’, realizes that was how it was all working.
My bullet list…
check mark…
one mark off my list…
Finally ….
early on looking jnto this area is now being shown pubicly…
I thought it would of been done sooner but it is at least publicly at forefront…there are other similiar organizations on my check list that need to be in same limelight as 100 club…and even ? fire districts who need to be at forefront showing same transparency.
Thank you Diane and wwtktt…I am glad to see this as well as Paul Morin…will you please step forward and publicly share to the world your account the final hours 63013…
Maybe I missed this information about Marcia McKee but has the 100 club done the right thing by her and provided what is rightfully her’s due to her son’s death in the Yarnell hill fire?
Diane… one the most glaring ‘omissions’ from this recent AZCENTRAL article about the meltdown in this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ is the fact that the ‘article’ contains nothing at all coming from ANY of the actual ‘Family Members’ that this whole operation was meant to ‘Help’.
It is not known if the reporter ever even bothered to basically ‘poll’ the Family Members to find out what THEIR views of this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ and their actions ( or lack thereof ) actually were… but even if they did… there is no mention of them doing that anywhere in the article.
I’m sure some of the ‘reports’ from ‘Family Members’ themselves would have been in the ‘Good’ category… but SOME of them might have also been in either the ‘Bad’ or even ‘Ugly’ categories.
So there is NO mention of Marcia McKee… and anyone having even bothered to check with HER about her ‘treatment’ by this ‘Arizona 100 Club’.
It is STILL ‘reported’ that even though this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ SAID ( just 4 days after the tragedy ) that they had ALREADY distributed their mission-statement-required $15,000 LODD benefits to ALL of the ( directly eligible ) Family Members that they actually did no such thing.
That SOME ‘Family Members’ ( like Marcia Mckee ) have never seen a DIME of that ‘benefit’… much less any of the other ‘benefits’ or ‘invitations to trips’ or ‘gravesite plots’ or who-knows-what-else this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ was offering to OTHER ( select ) ‘Family Members’.
While they are at it, it would not be a bad idea to investigate the local Presbyterian Church and see how they distributed their hundreds of thousands in donations. A couple people to talk to are the McCrakins, lost it all, but got a bad treatment by their account. This was not really a church deal, but instead the church was used. Anyone that handles hundreds of thousands of donations wont mind an investigation–especially since they are Christian oriented.
**
** BEAR DIVIDE RANGER STATION ENTRAPMENT
**
** ONE THOUSAND GALLON PROPANE TANK?
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 23, 2016 at 4:52 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> In the WUI Structure Defense, California FIRESCOPE paper on
>> page 3, they discuss the use of TEMPORARY Refuge Areas.
So ( in California, anyway ), it’s perfectly OK ( and even ‘codified’ with ‘acronyms’ ) to not be able to access your established ‘Safety Zone’ via your established ‘Escape Route’… as long as you have a TRA somewhere in-between to save your ass?
Well… ( to quote Dana Carvey )…
“Isn’t that special”.
This is one of those things that you just have to LAUGH at the way these ‘Forestry’ people try to ‘codify’ common sense with their little acronyms.
Of COURSE if you have lost your situational awareness and you allow your established ‘Escape Routes’ to become compromised BEFORE you have the good sense to utilize them you are going to be ‘looking’ for a TRA to try and “Save Your Ass”.
For people so fond of ‘acronyms’, it’s a wonder they didn’t just call them SOAZ ( Save Our Assess Zones ).
SIDENOTE: It’s a shame Granite Mountain didn’t know about TRAs. They had one larger than a football field just 100 yards away from where they decided to go with the ‘shake and bakes’ instead.
TRA or not… the situation STILL meets the ‘official’ NWCG definition of an ‘entrapment’ ( as you, yourself said so as you quoted that NWCG definition ).
So let an INVESTIGATION determine whether the reason there were no fatalities or injuries during this classic ‘entrapment’ situation was because there just ‘happened’ to be a TRA around… and let the same investigation determine whether that really was a valid TRA… or whether these 14 firefighters are simply damn LUCKY to be alive.
Bob Powers is now calling the building right next to the bunkhouse a ‘cookhouse’.
Was there a PROPANE TANK there?
Are we looking at a situation where if things had gone just a little differently… they might STILL be picking up body parts there at that ‘entrapment’ to try and figure out how many firefighters were even THERE?
** FOLLOWUP…
Answering my own question from above.
According to Google Satellite imagery taken just last February ( 2016 ) of this ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’ there WAS a HUGE PROPANE TANK right next to the building.
Once again… click the following link… and a ‘RED balloon’ will appear exactly on the roof of the building where the 14 FFs were able to survive their ‘entrapment’…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B021'33.3%22N+118%C2%B023'48.2%22W/@34.3591946,-118.3967941,48m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.359256!4d-118.396735
Go into ‘Satellite mode’ and then keep ‘Zooming down’ on the Building.( if all of that isn’t already done when the page appears ).
Look just to SOUTH of the EAST corner of the building.
About 25 feet off the SE corner of the building is a HUGE ( WHITE ) PROPANE TANK.
We are talking about 20 feet long and probably a 1,000 ( ONE THOUSAND ) gallon Propane Tank within 25 feet of the building.
The HUGE tank is partly ‘shaded’ in the ‘Satellite’ view because ( guess what )… there are LARGE TREES near this HUGE PROPANE TANK because that USFS facility itself was NOT ‘firewised’.
So it really does look like, if things had gone just a little differently that day… investigators might STILL be picking up body parts there at that entrapment site.
Are valid TRA’s allowed to have 1,000 ( ONE THOUSAND ) gallon PROPANE TANKS within 25 feet of them?
Were these 14 firefighters even AWARE they were trying to survive a complete burnover / entrapment in a building with a 1,000 ( ONE THOUSAND ) gallon PROPANE TANK right next to it?
Remember you don’t bend them, you don’t break them….the 10 standing ORDERS. They are admitting the 10 can’t be followed always at all times. Whose wonky now? And don’t tell me a new acronym makes OK because it’s ‘in the book.’
Woodsman
Since these ‘Forestry people’ seem to have ‘acronyms’ for EVERYTHING ( and that tends to codify and/or justify ‘bad decison making’? )…
…I wonder if they have an acronym for the following scenario…
1. No LCES in place or it has been ‘compromised’ ( either because those involved think it’s ‘Hillbilly’ or that they are ‘smarter than that’ or because they just don’t give a fuck about that sort of thing and they are in it for the ‘Ranger Danger’ aspects of the ‘job’ ).
2. No TRAs readily available.
3. No survivable deployment site.
Maybe there’s an ‘official’ acronym for THAT ‘scenario’, too.
Something like?…
WHOOPS ( We Had Objectives Other (than) Personnel Safety ).
Here again your ignorance on the propane tank.
Note– the Brick wall separating the tank from flammable material?????
Sitting on a green grass lawn………
Woodsman You know better.
The only way there could be heat on that tank is if the building caught fire
RIGHT???????.
And yes there were severial 10 Standard orders that were not followed.
But then again we are dealing with SBFD a City department but we will have to wait and see if a investigation happens.
Reply to Bob Powers post on August 23, 2016 at 9:05 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> yes there were severial 10 Standard orders that
>> were not followed.
>>
>> But then again we are dealing with SBFD a City department
Well, actually, at this point ( see all the new posts up above )… there is no evidence than any SBFD or ‘City’ crew was involved in this entrapment/burnover at the Bear Divide Station at all.
It appears to have been ONLY “US Forestry” firefighters ( Angeles Nation Forest Engine E19-ANF with Captain Ramon Chavez and crew… and US Forestry employee and ‘Squad Leader’ James Robledo and HIS ‘Crew’ ).
There MAY have been at least one other ‘Engine’ involved but so far it’s not clear if that was even the case.
That Bear Divide Station was the HOME of Engine E19-ANF, and Ramon Chavez and ‘Squad Leader’ James Robledo had apparently been given PERMISSION to both take their full ( separate ) CREWS there to that Station to try and ‘defend’ it when the all became ‘entrapped’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> We will have to wait and see if a investigation happens.
It still appears for all the world like this was an official ‘entrapment’ involving ( perhaps ) ONLY US Forestry employees and it took place ON US Forestry property and AT an actual US Forestry ‘Station’.
So if there is NOT an investigation… there will also have to be a reason given WHY it isn’t meeting the established criteria for having one.
No one is saying anyone did anything wrong.
But even from what we already know of the circumstances… it absolutely warrants an ‘investigation’ that might lead to ‘Lessons Learned’.
Regardless of the SAFENET report already filed… US Forestry employee and ‘Squad Leader’ James Robledo has already testified to the media that in that attempt to save those HOUSES there at that facility… they became ENTRAPPED.
Followup…
Just in case anyone might be wondering what the sudden explosion of a 1,000 gallon propane tank might look like… here is just ONE video that shows it happening…
The explosion of the 1,000 gallon propane tank comes at +34 seconds.
LANGUAGE WARNING: The entire audio track for this video following the explosion is nothing but nonstop “Holy SHITS!”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_fXM2Fesag
The propane tank at the Bear Creed Divide Ranger Station was only about 25 feet away from BOTH the ‘cookhouse’ and the ‘bunkhouse’ ( where the 14 entrapped firefighters took refuge ).
If that propane tank had ( due to a bad chain of events or just plain bad luck ) ‘gone off’ during the complete burnover of that US Forestry compound… there probably would have been nothing left of EITHER the ‘cookhouse’ OR the ‘bunkhouse’.
Same explosion of the same 1,000 gallon propane tank on September 9, 2013,
in Schellville, just south of Sonoma, CA.
Filmed from a different angle.
In this one… the explosion comes at +19 seconds… but the same LANGUAGE WARNING applies. The entire second half of the video is nothing but “Holy SHITs!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOpxRTzJWgU
And here is what the explosion of a 1,000 gallon propane tank looks like at NIGHT… and near some buildings.
WARNING: Some people might find this one disturbing. A firefighter was ‘injured’ ( but not killed ) in this propane tank explosion… but there is also a lot of SCREAMING in this one…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVEJVvIqRXs
Google BLEVE.
What I can’t help but wonder is why 14 firefighters supposedly assigned to engines, which are required to be positioned for rapid egress, chose to shelter in place instead of hauling ass outta there. The fatal attraction of structures? Expectations of management? Structural firefighters assigned to those engines had to know that propane tank was there. What the hell is going on?
Woodsman
Since there hasn’t been an investigation ( yet )… it’s hard to say WHEN these firefighters totally lost their situation awareness… or WHY.
If they, themselves, were just ‘assuming’ one of those buildings at that station qualified as a ‘valid Safety Zone’ ( and not just a TRA ‘Save our Assess Zone’ )… then here comes the “Nobody seems to know how big is big enough” question again when it comes to ‘Safety Zones’.
The fact that there DOES appear to have been a no-shit 1,000 gallon propane tank just outside the building they chose to take refuge in ( as stupid as that was ) is secondary to the fact that they ended up ‘entrapped’ at that facility in the first place.
Pretty rough terrain around there… but if they simply had been able to exit the driveway of the facility and get back up to that main highway… they should have been able to go anywhere they needed to be truly ‘safe’.
Were they trying to ‘die on their swords’ just because the ‘structures’ at that facility happened to be ‘rented’ by ‘firefighters’?
Prevention was the only cure here.
One look at Google Maps shows that unless that entire compound had been ‘firewised’… there wasn’t much anyone could have done to save it.
It had TWO ‘fuel choked’ canyons running right at it from both the north and the south and right up to the compound itself… with NO ‘fire breaks’ at those points where the fuel-choked canyons entered the compound itself.
This was a pretty classic ‘California terrain’ scenario… and there are ( at least SHOULD be ) tons of “Lessons to Learn” here for all involved.
I’m still trying to find out if SBFD ( while thankfully still PLUS 14 firefighters ) might be MINUS 2 or 3 ( or even 4 or 5? ) ‘Engines’.
WTKTT and Woodsman,
I have been packing my stuff for a fire assignment, so obviously not really paying attention to IM details, so I will will defer to whatever you find, for now.
Check out the Jesusita Fire entrapment in 2009. Maybe they learned their lessons from them.
https://higherlogicdownload.s3-external-1.amazonaws.com/WILDFIRELESSONS/Jesusita_Entrapment_Report.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJH5D4I4FWRALBOUA&Expires=1472009019&Signature=UF2q2Dyy6yCEXJ7x%2F8o9FQRbfAc%3D
Whoo doggie, that was a great read!
Like I said, Cali is the founder & originator of the hybrid firefighter model.
Fatal attraction of structures? You betcha don’t cha know.
Structures identified as safety zones by fire line leadership. They prepositioned their scba’s inside the structure prior to arrival of the fire. While attempting to ride it out in their nifty TRA, a sliding glass door explodes giving them a clue that maybe it’s time for them to find another TRA but not before sustaining life threatening burns.
Cul-de-sac identified as a safety zone with estimated 100′ flame lengths…
Fatal attraction of structures!
It’s shocking what effect trying to save a box of plywood & 2×4’s has on some people.
Go Hybrids! Go!
Woodsman
Based on new information by wtktt, I rescind my hybrid accusation on the Bear Divide entrapment as I now have reason to believe there were primarily USFS firefighters involved in defense of the federal facility.
Woodsman
**
** BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION ‘ENTRAPMENT’ VIDEO
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 20, 2016 at 8:59 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT, yes, the video clip from the HS Crew is only 6 seconds.
>> I’m sure there are more. I sent it to you with hopes you’d be
>> able to post it on IM.
I have uploaded exactly what you sent me ( byte for byte ) to YouTube and set it as a PUBLIC video.
The direct link to the video is…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1GjZm7dsaw
I also added a full copy of the SAFENET that has already been filed with regards to this ‘entrapment’ to the ‘description’ of the video… just in case that original SAFENET report suddenly ‘disappears’ from the SAFENET database.
Here is the ‘About’ text for this PUBLIC YouTube video…
——————————————————————————————–
* BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION ENTRAPMENT
This video was shot on July 23, 2016 by one of the firefighters who was involved in the ‘entrapment’ which took place at the ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ in the Angeles National Forest, during the SAND FIRE of July-August 2016.
The firefighter was ‘sheltering in place’ during the entrapment at the only building at that ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’ which was NOT destroyed during the burnover at that location.
The video is only 6 seconds in length, but it shows the fire as it was burning down the other structures at that ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’.
Here is the actual SAFENET report filed regarding this ‘entrapment’ at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station on July 23, 2016…
( snip )
A full copy of the SAFENET filed for this ‘entrapment’ incident
( /snip )
—————————————————————————————
NOTE: I can still find NO evidence that ANY kind of ‘investigation’ is taking place with regards to this near-fatal entrapment on the ‘Sand Fire’.
Those firefighters are LUCKY to be ALIVE… and the entire incident NEEDS to be INVESTIGATED so that the “Lessons to Learn” can be also then become common knowledge.
Followup… something very ODD just happened.
Within 25 minutes of me posting that ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’ entrapment video ( with the accompanying copy of the SAFENET report )… the video received exactly 47 ( FORTY SEVEN ) ‘hits / views’.
That is unusual.
Only thing I can think that would cause that is because the ‘Sand Fire’ is still actively being reported in the media… and any number of ‘media’ outlets might have ‘Google Alerts’ set for themselves regarding anything that has anything to do with the ‘Sand Fire’ appearing on the ‘InterWeb’.
So maybe some MSM ( Mainstream Media ) outlets are now fully aware of this near-fatal ‘entrapment’ that took place there at that Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station back on July 23… AND the associated ‘SAFENET’ report that was filed ( but no INVESTIGATION yet ).
CORRECTION: The short video clip is NOT from the HS, it is from the entrapped SBFD Engine FF’s seeking refuge in the Bear Divide HS Barracks.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
August 22, 2016 at 8:59 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> CORRECTION: The short video clip is NOT from the HS,
>> it is from the entrapped SBFD Engine FF’s seeking
>> refuge in the Bear Divide HS Barracks.
Copy that. I did NOT include any specific reference to WHO any of these FFs might have been in the ‘description’ of the video up at YouTube.
The SAFENET itself ( oddly enough ) seems to be going out of its way to NOT ‘identify’ who ANY of these 14 FFs really were.
You say that at least SOME of them ( including the guy who shot the 6 second video ) belonged to an Engine Crew from the ‘San Bernadino County Fire Department’… correct?
But what about your original HS reference?
Were ALL 14 of these trapped firefighters on SBFD Engines?… or were any of them Hotshots?
The SAFENET just says it was ’14 firefighters’… but it DOES say they were ‘under the command’ of a ‘Structure Group Supervisor’.
SIDENOTE: According to other articles… some of the houses / trailers that were there WERE occupied ( rented? ) by USFS ‘Hotshots’… but THEY were ( apparently ) not there and off working OTHER fires on July 23, 2016.
If there were no ‘Hotshots’; involved… and all 14 FFs belonged to ‘Engines’… then did the Engines themselves suffer any damage?
One of the photos above shows the ‘Forestry’ vehicle that was mentioned in the SAFENET and it was, in fact, totally destroyed.
So just wondering about the ‘Engines’ themselves… if ( in fact ) all these FFs who survived that entrapment were all ‘Engine Crew’.
14 FFs would represent ( what? )… at least THREE different ‘Engines’ that also had to have been parked there at that Ranger Station during the entrapment?
WTKTT,
You posted: “But what about your original HS reference? … Were ALL 14 of these trapped firefighters on SBFD Engines?… or were any of them Hotshots?”
NONE of them were Hot Shots as far as I know. And that error was due mostly to fatigue from working long hours on a fire myself, and reading and typing it out on a cell phone.
The Engines in Southern CA are usually configured into Strike Teams, consisting of FIVE (5) of the same kind and type, with common
communications and a leader. They may be pre-established and sent to an incident – or – formed at an incident.
So, the Engines could have been staffed with 2 to 5 personnel each.
Thank you.
So… ( correct me if I’m wrong )… it looks like the ‘responsibility’ for actually INVESTIGATING this ‘close-call’ and the near loss of 14 more firefighters in one swell foop lies with CALFIRE?
As Google Maps Satellite views AND both PRE and POST burnover photographs indicate… that building where they were entrapped was by NO MEANS any kind of valid ‘Safety Zone’. They are simply damn lucky they chose the one structure at that compound that would NOT ending up burning to the ground.
Just more “Bad decison making… with good outcomes”.
Tick tock… tick tock.
WTKTT,
Not positive, but I think that the responsibility for an investigation would be based on whatever jurisdiction and/or whatever fire personnel involved.
The incident would likely have been classified as an entrapment.
The 2008 NWCG Glossary of Wildland Fire Terminology states:
“Burnover – A situation where personnel or equipment is caught in an advancing flame front.”
“Entrapment – A situation where personnel are unexpectedly caught in a fire behavior-related, life-threatening position where planned escape routes or safety zones are absent, inadequate, or compromised.”
“An entrapment may or may not include deployment of a fire shelter for its intended purpose. These situations may or may not result in injury. They include “near misses.”‘
This was definitely an entrapment, however, utilizing any sound structure as a safe area is acceptable and covered in the WUI training and referred to as TRA (Temporary Refuge Areas).
I agree there is no way this ‘incident’ would NOT meet the definition of an ‘entrapment’.
But “Sound Structure”?
Have another look at THIS photo of one of the “Sound Structures” there at that “Bear Creek Ranger Station” that burned up ( this is also the photo that shows the US Forestry Vehicle parked in front of it totally burned up )…
NOTE: When the following page appears… scroll down past the ‘Slideshow’ photo(s) at the TOP of the page to see the photo below that…
http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-sand-fire-continues-to-move-toward-full-containment/#5
Concrete-Block building.
What appears to be a ‘tin’ roof as well.
Totally fucking DESTROYED.
Typo above.
It’s the ‘Bear Creek DIVIDE Ranger Station”.
GROAN!… another brain fart, above… sorry.
The facility that burned up is, of course, US Forestry’s “Bear Divide Ranger Station”.
There is no ‘Creek’ in there at all.
WTKTT,
In the WUI Structure Defense, California FIRESCOPE paper on page 3, they discuss the use of TEMPORARY Refuge Areas.
“Temporary Refuge Area (TRA) – a preplanned
area where firefighters can immediately take
refuge for temporary shelter and short – term relief without using a fire shelter in the event that emergency egress to an established Safety Zone is compromised. Examples: lee side of
structure, inside of structure, large lawn or parking area, cab of apparatus.
NOTE: Although Safety Zones and viable Escape Routes shall always be identified in the WUI environment, they may not be immediately available should the fire behavior increase unexpectedly. Often a Temporary Refuge Area (TRA) is more accessible in the WUI environment. A TRA will provide temporary shelter and short-term relief from an approaching fire without the use of a fire shelter and allow the responders to develop an alternate plan to safely survive the increase in fire behavior.”
Based on this definition, these FF”s did just that. I have heard Southern CA FF’s talk about doing this on several occasions. Even the house you refer to that EVENTUALLY burned down, provided the FF’s with a temporary safe zone out of the radiant and convective heat.
This is not something I plan on doing as the FF’s did on the Jesusita Fire, however, I definitely plan for them as a contingency.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on August 23, 2016 at 4:52 pm
>> In the WUI Structure Defense,
>> California FIRESCOPE paper on
>> page 3, they discuss the use of
>> TEMPORARY Refuge Areas.
So ( in California, anyway ), it’s perfectly OK ( and even ‘codified’ with ‘acronyms’ ) to not be able to access your established ‘Safety Zone’ via your established ‘Escape Route’… as long as you have a TRA somewhere in-between to save your ass?
Well… ( to quote Dana Carvey )…
“Isn’t that special”.
This is one of those things that you just have to LAUGH at the way these ‘Forestry’ people try to ‘codigy’ common sense with their little acronyms.
Of COURSE if you have lost your situational awareness and you allow your established ‘Escape Routes’ to become compromised BEFORE you have the good sense to utilize them you are going to be ‘looking’ for a TRA to try and “Save Your Ass”.
For people so fond of ‘acronyms’, it’s a wonder they didn’t just call them SOAZ ( Save Our Assess Zones ).
TRA or not… the situation STILL meets the ‘official’ NWCG definition of an ‘entrapment’ ( as you, yourself said up above ).
So let an INVESTIGATION determine whether the reason there were no fatalities or injuries during this classic ‘entrapment’ situation was because there just ‘happened’ to be a TRA around… and let the same investigation determine whether that really was a valid TRA… or whether these 14 firefighters are simply damn LUCKY to be alive.
Bob Powers is now calling the building right next to the bunkhouse a ‘cookhouse’.
Was there a PROPANE TANK there?
Are we looking at a situation where if things had gone just a little differently… they might STILL be picking up body parts there at that ‘entrapment’ to try and figure out how many firefighters were even THERE?
WTKTT said…
————————————————-
Bob Powers is now calling the building right next to the bunkhouse a ‘cookhouse’.
Was there a PROPANE TANK there?
Are we looking at a situation where if things had gone just a little differently… they might STILL be picking up body parts there at that ‘entrapment’ to try and figure out how many firefighters were even THERE?
——————————————–
Answering my own question again.
According to Google Satellite imagery taken just last February ( 2016 ) of this ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’ there WAS a HUGE PROPANE TANK right next to the building.
Once again… click the following link… and a ‘RED balloon’ will appear exactly on the roof of the building where the 14 FFs were able to survive their ‘entrapment’…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B021'33.3%22N+118%C2%B023'48.2%22W/@34.3591946,-118.3967941,48m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.359256!4d-118.396735
Go into ‘Satellite mode’ and then keep ‘Zooming down’ on the Building.
Look just to SOUTH of the EAST corner of the building.
About 25 feet off the SE corner of the building is a HUGE PROPANE TANK.
We are talking about 20 feet long and probably a 1,000 ( ONE THOUSAND ) gallon Propane Tank within 25 feet of the building.
The HUGE tank is partly ‘shaded’ in the ‘Satellite’ view because ( guess what )… there are LARGE TREES near this HUGE PROPANE TANK.
So it really does look like, if things had gone just a little differently that day… investigators might STILL be picking up body parts there at that entrapment site.
Are valid TRA’s allowed to have 1,000 ( ONE THOUSAND ) gallon PROPANE TANKS within 25 feet of them?
TRA…is that like a garage of a house a la Twisp? Personnel apparently are not seeing these fires coming & they are exceeding their expectations when they get there. Maybe we all need a national pause & reset of the entire wildfire system. It’s madness. Interagency teams, unified command, ICS….smooth as fucking silk.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
August 23, 2016 at 6:29 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> TRA…is that like a garage of a
>> house a la Twisp?
AYUP.
‘Temporary Refuge Area’.
They ( the two Washington DNR guys and the contract dozer operator ) even elected to STAY in that ‘TRA’ ( a garage ) when they had the chance to LEAVE aboard one of the ( at least ) FOUR engines that was on Woods Canyon Road that afternoon.
But not long after they just let that ‘Engine’ leave without them onboard… the 3 of them found out what the ‘Temporary’ part of ‘Temporary Refuge Area’ means.
Their ‘TRA’ was now burning to the ground.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Personnel apparently are not
>> seeing these fires coming & they
>> are exceeding their expectations
>> when they get there. Maybe we
>> all need a national pause & reset
>> of the entire wildfire system. It’s
>> madness. Interagency teams,
>> unified command, ICS….smooth as
>> fucking silk.
I think the ‘wheels’ have been coming off the bus for quite some time now… and the ‘prime directive’ is simply to try and keep the PUBLIC from finding that out.
It’s actually a MIRACLE that they ( we ) aren’t having to drag dead firefighters off just about ANY of these major fires.
Can you imagine how many ‘close-calls’ take place very season that we NEVER even HEAR about?
I actually can imagine it as I witness a portion of the absurdity each year. If I had a dollar for every wannabe city firefighter that wants to use me & my agency for red card quals so they can get in the action, I would be able to take early retirement & wouldn’t need a pension check. Subsequently I annually lose my voice telling them NO! Alas, some find someone else who let’s them in the system & they end up on the fire lines across the land. You can’t fix stupid.
Woodsman
Sort of ‘answering my own question’ here…
Reply to WantsToKnowTheTruth ( WTKTT ) post
on August 22, 2016 at 9:20 pm
>> WTKTT said…
>>
>> So… ( correct me if I’m wrong )… it looks like
>> the ‘responsibility’ for actually INVESTIGATING
>> this ‘close-call’ and the near loss of 14 more
>> firefighters in one swell foop lies with CALFIRE?
Still not sure what the ‘command structure’ looked like on the day of the near-fatal entrapment itself ( Saturday, July 23, 2016 ) but as of the official InciWeb ‘morning report’ for the Sand Fire 7 days later, on June 30… the ‘Sand Fire’ had definitely gone to ‘Unified Command’ with SCIIM Team 3 IC Mike Wakoski ‘calling the shots’.
CALFIRE was ( at that time ) just being listed as an ‘assisting agency’…
InciWeb – The Sand Fire – Angeles National Forest
http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/article/4878/31990/
—————————————————
The Sand Fire is under unified command with Southern California Interagency Incident Management Team 3 ( Incident Commander Mike Wakoski ) and Los Angeles County Fire (Deputy Chief Vince Pena). Assisting agencies include Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department, Los Angeles Fire Department, California Office of Emergency Services, CAL FIRE, California Highway Patrol, Los Angeles County Public Works, Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, Southern California Edison, Metrolink, Los Angeles County Animal Care and Control, and American Red Cross.
——————————————————-
Bear Dived Station is Federal Land Angeles NF.
The Station buildings and Barracks are of Cinder Block Construction way safer than the pictures would indicate.
The roofs are almost flat with Tar covered with pea size rock the only wood showing is the Fascia and soffit. also the windows are metal framed set in concrete blocks.
WAY SAFER THAN A FIRE SHELTER.
Most of the Stations on the Angeles were built the same with Cinder Block construction in the 40s and 50s.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
August 23, 2016 at 8:35 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The Station buildings and Barracks
>> are of Cinder Block Construction
>> way safer than the pictures would indicate.
Really?
I guess you didn’t look at the photos I posted below of the destruction there at this Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station.
Here’s a relevant one…
http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-sand-fire-continues-to-move-toward-full-containment/#5
Scroll down past the ‘Slideshow’ photo(s) at the top of the page to then see a photo of one of the totally DESTROYED ‘CB Block’ buildings there at that Bear Creek Divide Ranger station.
The CAPTION for this photo reads…
————————————————
Fire crew survey a structure at the US Forest Service Bear Divide fire station that was destroyed by the Sand Fire in the Angeles National Forest above Santa Clarita on Sunday, July 31, 2016. The fire is 41,432 acres and 93 percent contained. (Photo by Watchara Phomicinda/ Southern California News Group)
————————————————
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Most of the Stations on the Angeles
>> were built the same with Cinder Block
>> construction in the 40s and 50s.
And some of the ones at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station were still TOTALLY DESTROYED.
Again… see the photo at the link above.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The roofs are almost flat with Tar
>> covered with pea size rock the only
>> wood showing is the Fascia and soffit.
>> also the windows are metal framed
>> set in concrete blocks.
Well… the ‘roofs’ at that Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station don’t match that description.
And as for the ‘windows’… see the photo above. They were destroyed as well.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> WAY SAFER THAN A FIRE SHELTER.
So what are you trying to say, Bob?
That these 14 Firefighters who became ‘entrapped’ at that Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station were never in any danger at all?
That they made GOOD decisions that day?
If so… I disagree.
I think they are ALL very ‘lucky to be alive’.
That ‘compound’ was not FIREWISED in any way… and was NOT any kind of valid SAFETY ZONE.
Satellite photos prove it.
Click the following LINK and ‘Google Maps’ will appear with a RED balloon sitting on the center of that ‘barracks’ building at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station where those FFs managed to SURVIVE that ‘entrapment’ on July 23, 2016…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B021'33.3%22N+118%C2%B023'48.2%22W/@34.3592604,-118.3989237,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.359256!4d-118.396735
Go into ‘Satellite’ mode.
Keep ‘Zooming down’ on the little RED ‘ballon’ which marks the ‘barracks’.
Looks like the ‘roofs’ have been updated to ASPHALT SHINGLES ( which burn well )… and look at all the fucking TREES surrounding the building.
That ‘area’ was not even ‘firewised’ in ANY way.
There are WAY too many ( big ) trees near that ‘barracks’ and WAY too close to the building.
Some of those BIG trees are actually TOUCHING the buildings.
Those FFs who became entrapped in that ‘barracks’ building are ‘lucky to be alive’.
And this actually brings up a “Lesson to Learn” even if there is never any official investigation of this incident.
It’s a “Practice What You Preach” lesson.
How can US Forestry ever expect people building in the WUI to take all these “You MUST firewise” crap seriously when US Forestry itself doesn’t even do it for their OWN ‘Ranger Stations’ out there in the boondock?
These USFS ‘Ranger Stations’ out in the middle of nowhere should ALL be a ‘shining example’ of how to FIREWISE a structure/compound.
But this ‘Bear Creek Divide Station’ that just burned to the ground was nothing but a ‘shining example’ of what NOT to do.
Exactly. There should be absolutely no excuses for losing buildings like that. I don’t give a shit who told whom to burnout, not burnout, or what?? No prep should be needed except for minimal checks for any USFS ranger station to withstand fire. They should be maintained consistently at the beginning of each season. I also agree that they should be the example. No excuse.
And just where was this hotshot crew located while their housing burned to the ground? Not off forest, I hope. Sure would suck to get that message.
Can’t wait for my buddy Ol’ Gary to read this one – gonna be great fun to hear his assessment of the situation.
Woodsman
The buildings you posted were wood construction the one that had the metal roof was Cinder Block it stood the metal roof collapsed on it note the small building that stood in front of the building on the station that burned same construction as I stated.
The Barracks and cook house did not burn what else do you need to know.
I will say this plain —I have been to the Bear Divide Station on several occasions while on the Angeles NF.
Talked with two of my friends who told me that the Barracks and Cook house were not damaged. There was a storage house and several trailers that burned. along with a building that had a metal roof which was a training facility according to my friends. The rest of the station was just fine and was not touched by the fire.
They were safer there than any place else.
THE BARRACKS NEVER CAUGHT FIRE It also had a Green lawn clear around it and the Cook House.
IT WAS WAY SAFFER THAN A POTATO BACKER…………..Fire Shelter……………………….
Your assessment of Fire wise comes from where???? You have seen no pictures of the complete compound to make that assessment.
TWO BUILDINGS BURNED and 4 TRAILORS ON THE COMPOUND. That’s IT…………..
See post above on ‘Temporary Refuge Areas.”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-345244
WTKTT and Woodsman, I agree with you on Federal compounds, that they should be good, shining examples of Firewise. instead of in the ‘Red Rock’ category.
And this Hot Shot Crew and other nearby South Zone HS Crews were likely on fire assignments off-forest and/or other Division(s) on the same fire for all we know. while their housing burned to the ground.
That’s the way it goes sometimes. There are only so many Resources.
WTKTT,
Based on your post above regarding USFS (Angles NF) and Los Angeles County and CDF, I would say that the USFS and LA County would be the responsible investigative agencies, with maybe the SBFD because of their FF’s being involved, Maybe
We all herd from several of you that M should have ran to the Rocks rather than lie down and die.
Well these FF decided that the Barracks was the safest place to be and 14 survived with out injury the Barracks did not burn. Accordingly there are no reports of their Engines Burning either unless I missed something?????
What more do you want?????????????
woops M should be GM
While they are at it, it would not be a bad idea to investigate the local Presbyterian Church and see how they distributed their hundreds of thousands in donations. A couple people to talk to are the McCrakins, lost it all, but got a bad treatment by their account. This was not really a church deal, but instead the church was used. Anyone that handles hundreds of thousands of donations wont mind an investigation–especially since they are Christian oriented.
Bob said:Back to your Fucking they could run to the Rocks at Yarnell. These guys went to the safest structure on the Compound and walked away. Again what the Fuck do you want.
There’s a lot more to this story if you want it tomorrow Good Luck.
Ok Bob, I do wonder if you have been to the death site. I think if not, you could get permission with your credentials. Tell Chief Ben Palm that you are a top dog in wild land fire fighting–that should get you permission. They will shoot anyone else if they get near the site.
If you get there tell me that the boulders would not be a better alternative than taking the time to build brush around yourself with those flimsy blankets that melted like the lead out of those old tin cans.
I am just an old miner, civilian, and some degree of a mountain man since child hood. Maybe I am missing something, but with that boulder pile, and if you investigate it as I have, I would say every man would have survived had they used that huge area of boulders.
Tell me, did I fuck up by taking myself and Joy out through the boulders? I thought that was our hope, whilst we did not have copters to get us out or people to rescue us, or promise of retardant and water drops on our heads.
I am reminded of the GMHS who for some crazy reason, took a dive into a danger zone that Joy and I had to argue over. She wanted to do that dive as well. But Joy had no previous knowledge of fires and what they can do or how brewing storms can change winds in a heartbeat.
I am game to listen because I know you know your shit from years of fire fighting. I am only an old miner wild limited knowledge. The fuck up by the GMHS bosses, maybe you have some inside dope to share as to how that could happen since I am baffled, yet am not in a way because as sure as I am sitting here some one ordered this disaster.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
August 23, 2016 at 5:31 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Well these FF decided that the Barracks
>> was the safest place to be and 14
>> survived with out injury.
How do we KNOW there were ‘no injuries’?
They are trying to PRETEND this Incident ‘never even happened’… so how do we KNOW no one was injured or suffered an ‘ill effects’?
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The Barracks did not burn.
And it ended up just about the ONLY structure at that compound that did NOT burn.
So those firefighters are DAMN LUCKY.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Accordingly there are no reports of
>> their Engines Burning either unless
>> I missed something?????
There are ‘no reports’ of any vehicles damages except that one Forestry Vehicle which was absolutely TOASTED.
If they are actively trying to ‘cover this up’… then they may have totally LOST any number of Engines and they are just not admitting it ( yet ).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> What more do you want?????????????
Just the usual. The TRUTH.
Are YOU seriously taking the position that 90+ percent of a US Forestry compound was totally destroyed and 14 firefighters who became ‘entrapped’ at that facility just ‘happened’ to survive there…
…and that this is just “No big whoop”?
“Nothing to see ( or LEARN ) here”?
“Move along… move along?”
WTKTT
Again you are wrong what the Fuck do you want.
FIVE of the Ranger Station Structures were not damaged.
Where are you getting 90%.????
Did you read the information on the 14 or did you just ignore it????
They had some smoke inhalation but did not require medical attention. NO BURNS NO INJURIES.
You are trying to make this some big whoop not me.
Do I believe there should be a full investigation Hell Yes.
My information says most of the structures on the compound were not Burned.
Until you have the entire picture stop making things up.
90% you really are a Dumb SOB.
Back to your Fucking they could run to the Rocks at Yarnell. These guys went to the safest structure on the Compound and walked away. Again what the Fuck do you want.
There’s a lot more to this story if you want it tomorrow Good Luck.
You certainty are making up your own.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Do I believe there should
>> be a full investigation Hell Yes.
Thank you.
For a minute there.. I actually thought you were trying to say this was “No big whoop… Nothing to see here… Move along”.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> My information says most of the
>> structures on the compound
>> were not Burned.
Well… unless you want to ‘share’ exactly where ‘your information’ is coming from… I think I’ll stick with actual post-fire PHOTOGRAPHS of the area which show it was MOSTLY DESTROYED.
And when I say 90+ percent burned… I’m NOT talking about just the ‘structures’ that were there.
The place BURNED OVER, Bob.
BIG TIME.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> They had some smoke inhalation
>> but did not require medical
>> attention. NO BURNS NO INJURIES.
There ARE reports of ‘mysterious injuries’ on this ‘Sand Fire’… and in the timeframe associated with the July 23, 2016 ‘burnover’ there at that Bear Divide Ranger Station.
But officials will NOT confirm WHERE ( or HOW ) these ‘injuries’ were sustained.
Can YOU tell me ( for sure and certain ) these ‘injuries’ were NOT related to that ‘burnonver’ at that Ranger Station?…
Here is just ONE article where these mysterious ‘firefighter injuries’ are being reported…
http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20160731/massive-sand-fire-nearly-contained-after-more-than-a-week
——————————————-
One of the region’s biggest fires in years, the Sand fire started July 22 near Sand Canyon Road and the 14 Freeway in Santa Clarita. The cause of the blaze is still under investigation.
The fire killed one man, 67-year-old Robert Bresnick, who apparently died fleeing the fire in his car, fire officials said.
Additionally, three firefighters were injured,
——————————————-
SAFENETS do NOT often tell “the whole story”.
I just love your snarky little Games WTKTT.
1. Information comes from personal friends that are retired one was the Superintendent at Bear Divide he went to the station when the road was open.
Injuries to FF are numerous from twisted ankles to smoke inhalation and dehydration.
to Burns on a fire this size with Thousands of FF your guess is as good as mine.
You are making a lot of Move drama here with out specific facts.
Do not take News media as all there is they take pictures of burned building not the ones that did not burn.
Also clarify your self when you say 90% of the building were burned and then say you meant that the fire burned 90% of the fuel.
Ill stick to my information from reliable sources.
Copy that.
I’m actually trying to ‘reconstruct’ the actual first 48 hours of this ‘Sand Fire’… as far as ‘management’ goes… but it’s slow going so far.
The ‘Sand’ Fire actually STARTED on Friday, July 22, 2016 at about 2:10 p.m. along the northbound side of the freeway near Sand Canyon Road.
The ‘Initial Response’ was all ‘Los Angeles County Fire Department’ and LACFD was also where the first ‘announcements’ and ‘alerts’ about this ‘new’ wildfire were originating.
It’s hard to tell how rapidly ( or not ) the ‘command structure’ changed as the fire increased all day Friday and on into Saturday, July 23… up to the time the ‘entrapment’ took place at that Bear Divide Ranger Station.
One Local LA news agency says that the ‘command and control’ for this Sand Fire was ALWAYS totally with the “Los Angeles County Fire Department’ ( LACFD ).
There is no question, however, that the ‘entrapment’ itself took place ON a ‘National Forest’ ( the Angeles ) and AT an actual US Forestry ‘facility’ ( The Bear Divide Ranger Station ).
More later.
Once the Fire hits the forest then you end up with s Unified Command.
All Agencies that have land evolved go into their Co-op Agreements and set up the overhead structure.
Gets a little confusing.
The Structure Protection units at Bear Divide sounds to be San Bernardino (City or County Units) Still confusing here as to number of Engines W the 14 FF.
Their job was to PROTECT THE BEAR DIVIDE STATION ? Don’t know?
That in its self put them entrapped at the Station when the fire made a run at them.
The new WLUI structure protection.
** MORE ‘INFORMATION’ ( AND PHOTOS ) REGARDING THE
** ‘BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION’ ENTRAPMENT
** WHICH TOOK PLACE JULY 23, 2016 ON THE ‘SAND FIRE’.
U.S. Forest Service – Bear Divide Fire Station
Address: 21501 N Sand Canyon Road, Canyon Country, CA 91387
The entrance to ‘N Sand Canyon Road’ and the ‘Bear Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ is off of Little Tujunga Canyon Road, right near where it intersects with the ‘Santa Clara Truck Trail.
GPS coordinates ( decimal ) for the ‘Bear Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ are…
Latitude: 34.359256
Longitude: -118.396735
34.359256, -118.396735
Click the following LINK and ‘Google Maps’ will appear with a RED balloon sitting on the center of that ‘barracks’ building at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station where those FFs managed to SURVIVE that ‘entrapment’ on July 23, 2016…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B021'33.3%22N+118%C2%B023'48.2%22W/@34.3592604,-118.3989237,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.359256!4d-118.396735
BTW… the man who was killed in the ‘Sand Fire’… Robert Bresnick, 67, was discovered dead about 7:20 p.m. Saturday, July 23 ( same day as the entrapment ) inside a burned car parked in a driveway outside a home in the 26700 block of Iron Canyon Road in Santa Clarita.
That is only 2.58 miles north ( and slightly west ) of the ‘Bear Divide Ranger / Fire Station’.
For ‘perspective’… 2.58 miles is just a little farther than the distance between the Granite Mountain Hotshots ‘lunch spot’ and the center of the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Reports say he was trying to save his ( two ) dogs from his residence there on Iron Canyon Road but then got trapped by the fire and tried to survive inside of of his car.
If the firefighters at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station did not have that ‘building’ in which to shelter and had tried to ‘ride out’ the burnover in vehicles… they MAY have simply suffered the same fate as Mr. Robert Bresnick that day.
** WILDFIRE TODAY photo…
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Sand fire destroys homes near fire station in the Angeles National Forest
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/07/27/sand-fire-destroys-fire-station-in-the-angeles-national-forest/
PHOTO AT TOP OF ARTICLE
The remains of one of the Bear Divide Ranger Station buildings in the burned Angeles Forest.
Direct link to the photo itself…
http://wildfiretoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/img_3585-768×576.jpg
The photo was taken HERE… looking almost due SOUTH from the spot where ‘N Sand Canyon Road’ ( which is also the driveway for the ‘Bear Canyon Divide Ranger / Fire Station’ ) intersects with the Santa Clara Truck Trail.
Latitude: 34.359923
Longitude: -118.395463
34.359923, -118.395463
** MORE ‘INFORMATION’ ( AND PHOTOS ) REGARDING THE
** ‘BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION’ ENTRAPMENT
** WHICH TOOK PLACE JULY 23, 2016 ON THE ‘SAND FIRE’.
U.S. Forest Service – Bear Divide Fire Station
Address: 21501 N Sand Canyon Road, Canyon Country, CA 91387
The entrance to ‘N Sand Canyon Road’ and the ‘Bear Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ is off of Little Tujunga Canyon Road, right near where it intersects with the ‘Santa Clara Truck Trail.
GPS coordinates ( decimal ) for the ‘Bear Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ are…
Latitude: 34.359256
Longitude: -118.396735
34.359256, -118.396735
Click the following LINK and ‘Google Maps’ will appear with a RED balloon sitting on the center of that ‘barracks’ building at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station where those FFs managed to SURVIVE that ‘entrapment’ on July 23, 2016…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B021'33.3%22N+118%C2%B023'48.2%22W/@34.3592604,-118.3989237,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.359256!4d-118.396735
BTW… the man who was killed in the ‘Sand Fire’… Robert Bresnick, 67, was discovered dead about 7:20 p.m. Saturday, July 23 ( same day as the entrapment ) inside a burned car parked in a driveway outside a home in the 26700 block of Iron Canyon Road in Santa Clarita.
That is only 2.58 miles north ( and slightly west ) of the ‘Bear Divide Ranger / Fire Station’.
For ‘perspective’… 2.58 miles is just a little farther than the distance between the Granite Mountain Hotshots ‘lunch spot’ and the center of the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Reports say he was trying to save his ( two ) dogs from his residence there on Iron Canyon Road but then got trapped by the fire and tried to survive inside of of his car.
If the firefighters at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station did not have that ‘building’ in which to shelter and had tried to ‘ride out’ the burnover in vehicles… they MAY have simply suffered the same fate as Mr. Robert Bresnick that day.
** WILDFIRE TODAY photo…
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Sand fire destroys homes near fire station in the Angeles National Forest
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/07/27/sand-fire-destroys-fire-station-in-the-angeles-national-forest/
PHOTO AT TOP OF ARTICLE
The remains of one of the Bear Divide Ranger Station buildings in the burned Angeles Forest.
Direct link to the photo itself…
http://wildfiretoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/img_3585-768×576.jpg
The photo was taken HERE… looking almost due SOUTH from the spot where ‘N Sand Canyon Road’ ( which is also the driveway for the ‘Bear Canyon Divide Ranger / Fire Station’ ) intersects with the Santa Clara Truck Trail.
Latitude: 34.359923
Longitude: -118.395463
34.359923, -118.395463
( Continued Next ‘Reply’ due to the ‘only 2 links per post’ rule )…
** MORE ‘INFORMATION’ ( AND PHOTOS ) REGARDING THE
** ‘BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION’ ENTRAPMENT
** WHICH TOOK PLACE JULY 23, 2016 ON THE ‘SAND FIRE’.
U.S. Forest Service – Bear Divide Fire Station
Address: 21501 N Sand Canyon Road, Canyon Country, CA 91387
The entrance to ‘N Sand Canyon Road’ and the ‘Bear Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ is off of Little Tujunga Canyon Road, right near where it intersects with the ‘Santa Clara Truck Trail.
GPS coordinates ( decimal ) for the ‘Bear Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ are…
Latitude: 34.359256
Longitude: -118.396735
34.359256, -118.396735
Click the following LINK and ‘Google Maps’ will appear with a RED balloon sitting on the center of that ‘barracks’ building at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station where those FFs managed to SURVIVE that ‘entrapment’ on July 23, 2016…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B021'33.3%22N+118%C2%B023'48.2%22W/@34.3592604,-118.3989237,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.359256!4d-118.396735
BTW… the man who was killed in the ‘Sand Fire’… Robert Bresnick, 67, was discovered dead about 7:20 p.m. Saturday, July 23 ( same day as the entrapment ) inside a burned car parked in a driveway outside a home in the 26700 block of Iron Canyon Road in Santa Clarita.
That is only 2.58 miles north ( and slightly west ) of the ‘Bear Divide Ranger / Fire Station’.
For ‘perspective’… 2.58 miles is just a little farther than the distance between the Granite Mountain Hotshots ‘lunch spot’ and the center of the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Reports say he was trying to save his ( two ) dogs from his residence there on Iron Canyon Road but then got trapped by the fire and tried to survive inside of of his car.
If the firefighters at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station did not have that ‘building’ in which to shelter and had tried to ‘ride out’ the burnover in vehicles… they MAY have simply suffered the same fate as Mr. Robert Bresnick that day.
** WILDFIRE TODAY photo…
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Sand fire destroys homes near fire station in the Angeles National Forest
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/07/27/sand-fire-destroys-fire-station-in-the-angeles-national-forest/
PHOTO AT TOP OF ARTICLE
The remains of one of the Bear Divide Ranger Station buildings in the burned Angeles Forest.
( Continued Next ‘Reply’ due to the ‘only 2 links per post’ rule )…
Direct link to that ‘Wildfire Today’ photo of post-burnover DAMAGE at that ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’…
http://wildfiretoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/img_3585-768×576.jpg
The photo was taken HERE… looking almost due SOUTH from the spot where ‘N Sand Canyon Road’ ( which is also the driveway for the ‘Bear Canyon Divide Ranger / Fire Station’ ) intersects with the Santa Clara Truck Trail.
Latitude: 34.359923
Longitude: -118.395463
34.359923, -118.395463
Something ‘wonky’ about that ‘direct link’ to that Wildfire today photo of the post-entrapment damage at that ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’.
The following seems to work better…
http://wildfiretoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/img_3585-900×675.jpg
** BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION ‘ENTRAPMENT’…
**
** DAILY NEWS PHOTO 1…
Photo 19 on this page shows one of the burned residences at the ‘Bear Divde Ranger / Fire Station’…
http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-deadly-sand-fire-destroys-18-homes-burns-22000-acres/#1
** DAILY NEWS PHOTO 2…
More DAILY NEWS photos… with a GOOD one ( Photo 5 of 13 ) of building(s) destroyed at the Bear Divide Ranger Station…
The following link has a number of photos of the burned ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’
and the area around it…
Photo 5 is by Watchara Phomicinda/ Southern California News Group…
This photo ALSO shows the ‘Forest Service’ vehicle that was destroyed…
http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-sand-fire-continues-to-move-toward-full-containment/#1
Direct link to that ‘Photo Number 19’ at the link above which shows one of the destroyed buildings at the ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’…
http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-deadly-sand-fire-destroys-18-homes-burns-22000-acres/#19
Direct link to that ‘Photo Number 5’ at the link above which shows ‘closeups’ of more destroyed buldings at the ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’ ( and the burned-up US Forestry vehicle )…
http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-sand-fire-continues-to-move-toward-full-containment/#5
I noticed the counter hits too. I also thought tge same that it must of been email notification however all of a sudden even here locally people are coming to me like 63013 just happened and have an interest…so maybe currently there is just a peaked interest
Scary stuff that retardant–indeed. It may be the silent killer next to its twin agent orange, why I call it agent orange retardant. Twenty one thousand fish die in the Fall River once doused with this crap and we are not alarmed to dump it on and near our residences.
Let me give you a little of my own history with this stuff. Not before but after the many hikes we made over and around this stuff, I began to lack breath in a big way. Sometimes I would find myself having to pause when walking across the Wal Mart parking lot and any kind of hike was a challenge. When finally I did go to the Doctor about this problem, he ran the tests. He stated your heart is at risk, you are not getting enough oxygen to the heart. It was determined as well that I was in the beginning stages of COPD, needed heart stents, and warned if I did not get them a heart attack would be eminent The actual heart attack happened after I had the stents and had just visited the cardiologist complaining of heart pains. It was right outside his office at the Prescott VA that I attempted to get into the emergency entrance but could not make it. About all I remember was the excruciatinig pain that goes along with a heart attack. I was transferred to the Yavapai Regional Hospital where Joy says I was at for ten days, in the Intensive Care Unit. They had to put in two more stents, and those did not last but a few weeks until I again was returned, this time by helicopter from the Congress gas station back to ICU where two more stents were added to the four. Thank God for morphine at the hospital because I would have gladly jumped out of that copter above the Weavers to get rid of that pain. Those boys in the copter have no pain meds and give you only a fucking aspirin that is worthless, but they do hope it thins your blood to keep you alive. So that thirty minute trip back to Prescott is one I hate to remember.
The point is, I see that many of the Yarnell people after the fire were complaing that they were having breathing problem–mostly older folk, but a few we know in their 40’s and 50’s which I consider young. Well even my age is young at seventy if you look at my many aunt’s on my Dad’s side. They were in their 90’s, When I visited, Aunt Minni she was cooking wild blackberry pies and taking care of her worn out second husband, Bill of 65 years of age. He couldn’t go into the back yard and fetch a bucket of water with the hand pump. On the farm, there was no running water, and their toilet was an outhouse, yet that place was spotless and that lady knew how to manage well. That blackberry pie was made with berries I helped pick and at that time their farm land was being farmed by a relative since Bill was out of commission.
The thing is, their environment was clean, and chemicals were not a part of their world–they attended church on a tractor, their only transportation–and about the only thing that second husband could manage to do.
In this fast forwarded world of chemical applications people seem to look the other way, but just as lawsuits and knowledge and internet access have increased, people have become aware of how big business had and has managed to pull the wool over the public eye. You still see people smoking cigarettes despite the knowledge of their health destructiveness. They are brain washed into doing these poisons and the big business tycoons smile at the profits they make despite the horrible effects their product has on people. Indeed, anytime the human body ingests these chemicals it suffers. Of the twenty one hidden chemicals, some are cumulative, meaning these young firemen will not have health effects until later in life. With older folks, we have already accumulated enough chemical from everyday life, now add a dose of highly reactive ammonia with the other chemical soup and our already compromised immune system, lungs, heart, the effects are deadly. We see cancer, heart attacks, COPD, escalated –partly due (maybe mostly) due to the depletion of lung capacity directly caused by the lung killing ammonia in that retardant. Satellite pictures showed a high concentration of NH3 in the Yarnell area after the fire—other chemicals were not evaluated.
This is serious business–the millions made on retardant dumps is an industry that will fight to keep feeding you their deadly soup. When people are in a money game they are winners–with those billions they can buy many of the political cronies and use every psychological ploy and brain washing method to make the public believe their shit is safe. Don’t buy it.
Now we come to the Yarnell Fire. They will say that this retardant did save homes despite a 45mph fire that was laid down by fierce winds and went though those dumps like they were not there. Half the town burned, and without the dumps half the town would have burned anyway. I believe these people that run the fires damn well know this, but again drop this shit as much as you can because it looks good to the public, plenty millions are made and passed around, and who gives a shit about the aftermath on health to individuals that supposedly had their town saved by that shit. I am certain many of the lower bosses are fooled, but plenty are not and are in on the game and do not question these antics.
I have learned much from some of the most experienced and knowledgeable wild land fire fighting elite. Not all agree with the retardant idea that I think is a deadly solution to attempts at hindering a fire. I do know in a fierce wind like we had that shit is practically useless to stop or even slow a fire. We saw it at Yarnell–but do not hold your breath–another Yarnell fire, the Tenderfoot Fire with the backburn started by local firemen caused the need to again drop tons of that retardant right next residents on the east side of HWY 89. Again a reason that local firemen ought to stay out of the wild land fire fighting business unless they put out such things as a lightening strike. I did not see that backburn as proper by what a knowledgeable wild land fire fighting crew would have done under those conditions where the fire was on the other side of a mountain and being driven away from Yarnell.
I think it does go to prove what Gary says, wild land fire fighting and structure fire fighting do not mix. However the locals did get a great write up as if they saved Yarnell–that is the hero worshipers trying to make the public believe a lie. They did not save Yarnell by that burn but did burn three structures, mess up the electrical supply for days, and cause another chemical drop right next to town. Accolades again–unreasonable–I do recommend structure fire fighters to stay with your occupation–leave the wild land decisions to people that know proper proceedure.
**
** BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION ‘ENTRAPMENT’…
**
** ‘GO FUND ME’ ACCOUNTS RAISE MONEY FOR FIREFIGHTERS
** WHO LOST HOMES AT THAT ‘BEAR DIVIDE RANGER STATION’.
The fact that most of the buildings at that ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’ burned to the ground was being reported early on… but there was NEVER any mention of the ‘entrapment’ of the 14 firefighters which ALSO took place at the same time at that ‘Station’… on July 23, 2016.
Here is just another article going on about how at least one of the FFs who were occupying those destroyed homes/trailers had also already lost his home in another fire earlier this year…
This article NAMES those firefighters who were occupying those homes at this ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’.
KTLA – Channel 5 – Los Angeles
Article Title: Firefighter Whose Home Burned in 2009 Blaze Loses Home in Sand Fire
Published: 7:25 PM, July 25, 2016, by Cindy Von Quednow,
http://ktla.com/2016/07/25/firefighter-loses-second-home-in-sand-fire/
From that article…
————————————————————————-
A firefighter who had previously lost a home in a major 2009 blaze lost another home in the Sand Fire, which has scorched more than 50 square miles in the eastern Santa Clarita area, officials said.
Five homes associated with the Bear Divide Ranger Station were destroyed in the Sand Fire — and three of those homes were occupied by firefighting personnel, the Los Angeles Times reported. One of the firefighters also lost a home during the Station Fire in 2009, Angeles National Forest fire Chief Robert Garcia told the newspaper.
The Santa Clarita Valley Signal identified the three firefighters as Ramon Chavez, James Robledo and Sergio Toscano.
Multiple fundraising efforts have sprung up online to help raise money for the firefighters and their families.
As of Tuesday morning, a GoFundMe account for Toscano, a senior firefighter for the Little Tujunga Hotshots, had raised more than $20,000. Toscano’s son was staying with the firefighter’s mother elsewhere when the Sand Fire hit their home, according to the GoFundMe account set up on his behalf.
According to an update on the page, the funds will be split with other Forest Service families affected by the blaze.
A YouCaring page — which has raised just shy of raising $10,000 as of Tuesday morning — was set up for the Chavez, Robledo and Toscano families, along with the Shock family, which also lost a home in the area.
The Sand Fire has burned more than 35,000 acres, destroyed 18 homes. One person was found dead in the burn area; he had not been identified.
————————————————————————-
NOTE: The person who was found dead did NOT die in the actual ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’ burnover. He was found dead in his car about 2.58 miles north of that ‘Ranger Station’. He had returned to his home to try and save his 2 dogs and became ‘entrapped’ himself and then tried to ‘ride out’ the burnover in his vehicle. He was found dead inside that vehicle in the 26700 block of Iron Canyon Road in Santa Clarita.
The deceased man was Robert Bresnick, 67 years old.
His body was discovered at 7:20 p.m. Saturday, July 23, just a few hours AFTER the ‘entrapment’ of the 14 firefighters at the ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’.
Corrections for the post above.
I must have ‘Creek’ on the brain today, for some reason.
Anywhere it says ‘Bear Creek Divide’ above… should have just been ‘Bear Divide’.
It was the ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’ that was destroyed in the fire.
There is no ‘Creek’ in the name.
Arizona 100 Club-interesting article by azcentral about investigation of the 100 Club resulting in resignation of Sharon Felix.
Reply to Diane lomas post on August 23, 2016 at 4:58 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Arizona 100 Club-interesting article by azcentral about
>> investigation of the 100 Club resulting in resignation of Sharon Felix.
Thank you for the ‘heads up’ on this, Diane.
There have ALWAYS been rumors ( and some evidence / testimony ) that this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ outfit was playing ‘fast and loose’ with the Yarnell Hill Fire public donations.
Looks like the ‘Board’ of this outfit now thinks they can just throw this ‘Sharon-Knutson Felix’ person ‘under the bus’ and be ‘done with it’.
We all know things are never that simple and what has now been revealed might only be the ‘tip of the iceberg’.
Here’s a link to a longer ‘Reply’ up above with a link to the actual ‘Arizona Republic’ investigation / report…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-345277
I want everyone to know my time with Snakeman I learned about Hybrids —of the snake world…
On here I learned about hybrids of the firefighter world but on the Granite Mountain set there is an actor I do not think he gets it-
the snake on his neck has too large a head to be just a bulll snake…it is a hybrid between a rattler and bull…Snakeman use to have the bull snake in with the Rattler and when it had babies they looked strange as a baby…I have seen up close and photos or on my zazzle page of a hybrid mojave and diamondback as well as a hybrid tiger and speckled rattler….another characteristic you can see the scaling between the eyes when in person and that tear drop line by the eye that lacks in a bull…but do not be mistaken…would have to see in person because it is characteristic for a pissed off bull snake to mimic a rattler and puff the head out and rattle noise like a diamondback…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BJUDBsQjlGb/
also on hybrids-
I have seen bull snake body but viper head and fangs and also the other way around…rattler body but no fangs and bull snake head…that is a true real life hybrid…i also see bull snake head with odd structure with fangs and unidentifiable body of both bull and diamondback…so would be interested to know what was on his shoulder…best known only in person
Another casualty–Richard Fletcher, born Dec. 25, 1946 passed. Three years younger than myself. This is after the Tenderfoot Fire and Yarnell Fire. Now we have 111 deaths since the fire. I suspect the dying will pick up again now that we got a double dose of the retardant. We will continue to keep track of deaths involving the agent orange retardant. What new secret ingredients did they add to this shit? Since it is secret they can play with the chemicals you have to breath ==So you trust these fellows? Watch what they redact by the pages, and watch how Joy is denied public information about the fire. The account there was garbage designed to protect the cronies. So why do I have reason to believe them on other accounts–especially concerning agent orange retardant, its secret ingredients (does it include rat poison or DDT? Give me one good reason to hide chemicals we are subjected to? How do these Yahoos get away with hiding what they are subjecting human subject to? I for one do not like being used as a guinea pig. These people are not honest–they damn well know that it is a given that the ammonium nitrates and phosphates give off a lung killing ammonia gas. When you mix chemicals you then create new chemicals—ammonia is very reactive with other elements and compounds–so reactive in fact it will destroy your lungs and kill you if you get a concentrated whif of that shit. But we need to know what other chemicals are involved to know what compounds are formed from this slop dropped on us. This shit is so reactive it killed thousands of fish in drops accidentally made into rivers.
So how many deaths out of 645, now down to 500 souls since the fire, do we need to have EPA or WHO involve in scrutinizing this agent orange chemical slop?
Maybe since we were denied the truth of why the 19 are dead, we will also be denied a proper investigation of why 111 souls of Yarnell are dead after the 19. Pisses me off that this amount of people are dead, yet no government agency has responded to seeing what is going on here at Yarnell.
Best we can do is to keep tabs on the people that are dying. Right now since the deaths of the 19 GMHS the ration of civilian deaths to wild land fire fighter deaths is 1:6. For every firefighter dead, six civilians have expired since the fire. With a kill ration like that where 1/6 of the population is dead in so short a time, it equates to the black death.
To put it in perspective, if 1/6 of the population of the US were to die as has happened in Yarnell in this short time since the fire we would be looking at over 45 million deaths. That happens and some questions would be answered or heads would roll.
The Associated Press
Debate over fire retardant toxicity rages in West
Published June 22, 2012 Associated Press
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/22/debate-over-fire-retardant-toxicity-rages-in-west.html
From that article…
———————————————————————–
In 2002, a slurry bomber inadvertently dumped between 1,000 and 2,000 gallons of fire retardant on the Fall River about 25 miles south of Bend, Ore.
The retardant IMMEDIATELY killed all of the river’s fish, an estimated 21,000 mainly juvenile brown trout, redband trout and mountain whitefish over a six-mile stretch.
But the culprit in that case was sodium ferrocyanide, which became toxic to fish under certain environmental conditions and is longer used in fire retardant.
“We found out the hard way there was a small amount of chemical in some of the products that did have this characteristic,” said Cecilia Johnson, fire chemicals technical specialist at the agency’s Missoula Technology and Development Center in Montana.
———————————————————————–
The relevant QUOTE from one of US Forestry’s ‘chemicals specialist’ at the USFS Labs in Missoula…
“We found out the HARD WAY there was a SMALL AMOUNT OF CHEMICAL in some of the products that did have this characteristic ( of KILLING living creatures ).”
So what ELSE might be ‘remaining’ for US Forestry to “find out the HARD WAY”?
That there might be… as yet… still ‘small amounts of chemical’ present in this shit that has NEVER been subject to any ‘testing’… because the companies are being ALLOWED to never REVEAL everything that’s involved due to ‘trade secret’ laws?… not even for the ONLY ‘Health Effects’ study US Forestry has ever done and only then because they were FORCED to do so by a Court-Order?
By the way… with regards to that ‘bogus’ one-an-only Health -Effects study that US Forestry ever HAS done…
Not only did the ‘report’ freely admit they NEVER tested ALL of the chemicals in the retardants for possible ‘Health Risks’ ( because even they were supposedly not allowed to KNOW about everything that is even IN the retardant )… the same ‘Health Study’ made absolutely NO attempt to study ‘Health Risk’ based on AGE.
There was absolutely NO attempt to look at what the “Health Effects” might be for individuals who might ALREADY have compromised respiratory systems due to just ‘age’ or ‘existing respiratory ailments’… or BOTH.
By the way… below is a LINK to that now-infamous 2007 ‘report’ that US Forestry was FORCED to come up by a COURT ORDER when it was discovered they had been applying these modern ‘fire retardants’ all over the place for YEARS… but had NEVER even bothered to do any kind of ‘Environment Impact’ study on the shit.
NOTE: This is basically just US Forestry’s SUMMARY of the underlying Court-ordered ‘Health Effects’ study which was actually conducted by a company that ( inexplicably ) US Forestry itself was ‘allowed’ to select and to contract with. That was a well-known government contract firm known as ‘Labat / Anderson’.
Aerial Application of Fire Retardant
Environmental Assessment
United States Department of Agriculture
Forest Service – Fire and Aviation Management
Washington, DC
October 2007
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/retardant/fire_retardant_ea_with_errata_.pdf
NOTE: This report acknowledges what US Forestry says they had to learn the HARD WAY ( as in… AFTER thousands of FISH had died ) that the ‘corrosion inhibitor’ sodium ferrocyanide that was being used just to save wear and tear on the tanks and hoses was, in fact, KILLING fish. The report says the use of ‘sodium ferrocyanide’ was ‘discontinued’… but they also say it was simply ‘replaced’ with OTHER ‘corrosion inhibiting’ chemicals.
But they won’t say WHAT ‘sodium ferrocyanide’ was replaced WITH.
( You would have thought that the word ‘cyanide’ would have given someone a CLUE… before having to learn the HARD WAY about that ‘ingredient’. So who knows WHAT they have ‘replaced’ it with just in order to try and save wear-and-tear on the tanks and hoses ).
Here is just one excerpt from this court-ordered study ‘summary’ document…
——————————————————-
Aerial fire retardant is used to reduce the wildfire intensity and rate of spread. For safety reasons the general public is excluded from the vicinity of wildfire suppression activities. Consequently, the public is not normally exposed to aerial application of fire retardant.
——————————————————-
So no big whoop, right?
According to US Forestry… the PUBLIC is not NORMALLY exposed to ‘retardant’… so what’s the big deal?
The UNDERLYING study was actually done under government contract with a laboratory known as ‘Labat / Anderson’.
https://www.fws.gov/southwest/es/Documents/R2ES/Final%20BO-USFS_Use_of_Fire_Retardants_pt1.pdf
Here is just one ‘passage’ from THEIR actual ‘Retardant Health Effects’ Study…
————————————————————-
There are 21 chemical ingredients in products on the Qualified Products List that meet one or more of the criteria of carcinogenicity, low LD50s, or reportability to EPA and/or OSHA.
Many of these chemicals are contained in more than one formulation.
No toxicity data were available for several individual ingredients. Therefore, risks from these ingredients were NOT evaluated.
Cancer slope factors were unavailable for several chemicals that were identified as potential carcinogens. Therefore, cancer risks from these chemicals could NOT be quantified.
NO toxicity information is available for guar gum, performance additives, clay, or coloring agents.
These ingredients MAY have TOXIC potential.
—————————————————————
So even the US Forestry-contracted SCIENTISTS who did the actual STUDY for them freely admit there was a whole lotta shit in the retardants that meet the criteria for ‘cancer causing agents’… and that there was also a whole lotta shit in the retardants for which they had no DATA at all… but they went ahead with the ‘Heath Effects Study’ they were getting PAID to do ( with taxpayer dollars ) anyway and concluded there were “No long-term Health Risks” to HEALTHY mammals.
Even with what they DID know… they still made absolutely NO attempt to study the ‘Health Effects’ based on AGE or on people with already-compromised respiratory systems.
Thanks for the link on the fish slaughter in Fall River-WTKTT. Ferrocyanide is less toxic than cyanide. HCN, hydrogen cyanide needs only 200ppm concentration in air to kill a human within 10-50 minutes. Ten times that concentration (2000)ppm works to kill within a minute. So depending upon the concentration you will die breathing that shit in the air if you stay with it long enough.
If you study this stuff, it was historically made by passing ammonia over glowing coal. The coal porvides the carbon. It must be known that a certain concentration of HCN is made by soup dumps on hot coals of a wild fire. The soup is laden with ammonia–and I would suspect that the potassium and sodium produce those deadly substances in amounts that are hazardous to health. When they add a ferrocyanide to the soup then concentrations must increase. Cyanide is a lung killer along with the ammonia–only cyanide if you get up to 200 ppm will kill within 10-60 minutes.
Now we see why these things are trade secret ingredients. When the local fire department set their backburn, a huge retardant dump had to be called in –to save Yarnell on the north end–and maybe to try to keep the back burn fire from spreading more. The retardant did no good and you can see where the fire even burned back over the retardant, cooking up some deadly hydrogen cyanide and who knows what else in the chemical soup was created.
One thing is certain, do not cook that ammonium phosphate, nitrate and chemical soup at home and breath the fumes. You will be joining the 111 Yarnellites and the 19–your death will be by suffocation if you get your concentration up to 200ppm and stay a while.
Lung problems here have been the issue that Joy and I have both felt–and so have many of the people here after the fire. If you do not get enough oxygen to the heart, you have a heart attack and die–well maybe you live but then in a diminished capacity and with predictions that you won’t live long–in my case the cardiologist said I had 10% chance to make it a year. So not only that your life becomes miserable in certain capacity and you are tied to a drug if you do not take, you won’t last a month.
This is big business, they know these facts and I am certain I can verify them when the Chemical Engineer visits. Maybe he has a low down on the secret shit as well.
My Dad studied mining books on a daily basis. He was quite intelligent eventhough self taught. He once said it is not the tobacco that kills people as much as it is the arsenic and other chemicals sprayed on the crop that winds up in the lungs. Arsenic indeed is a cancer cause.
I do know that some clays are used in the retardant. Many clays contain asbestos fibers. They also contain silicate particles, triolites that are known to cause respiratory problems, silicosis, etc.–and unless analyzed can have other elements as well.
And WTKTT informs us of a bogus study that did not include people with age or existing respiratory, heart or cancer problems.
Remember, Zack Ashoor, the young man that hiked the area soon after the fire had asthma and he died not long after the hikes to the area. He was 29, the same age as my son–not scientific, but I believe that the hike compromised him enough to put him over the edge. I say this because both Joy and I suffered shortness of breath after hiking through that shit.
Had we known what we know now, we certainly would have avoided that area for some months. But what do you do when you live here and see that they have no qualms to pollute the area, even right next to homes?
Maybe the deaths we are having of the magnitude we see will bring in some big guns and a proper study of this terrible mixture I know is a poison agent orange retardant.
If we prove out that the 111 people of Yarnell died by direct and indirect effects of the fire (there was a suicide and sadness deaths as well) added to the chemical slop poured on our land, then I would like a memorial especially for these people.
1800 acres should be set aside but we won’t restrict it or need a fire chief to give you permission to go there. We will want a true story of the criminal soup that killed them due to their age or lung and heart disability. Also we would want a mention of the 19 and a true story of what killed them. Maybe we could take the money awarded like the widows got money and donate it to a better training and hiring practice for wild land fire fighters and bosses, and include better equipment. Use the ground to train wild land fire fighters and maybe set it aside adjoining the 19 and their 320 acres. There is plenty of state land to do that with and plenty manzanita and boulders to train in up there. Oh I was figuring 16.5 acres per death and rounded off a bit–That would be about three sections of land to honor the 111.
Twenty one chemicals, many with carcinogenic properties–What the fuck and the Forest Service says it is safe. Heat is a great changer of chemicals. Once that ammonia hits the hot wild fire the resulting chemicals produced are now changed to new ones.
We know at least some cyanide is made–a very deadly substance. “The killing of murders was done with sodium or potassium cyanide dropped into acid or acidic water produces the deadly cyanide gas that chokes the victim to death.
Now we have 21 chemicals in a soup and a fire to heat them–Wonder if their study included the fire, And if you use mammals exempting the human mammal, then what does this really mean?
What would be nice is for us to take all these yahoos that want to dump it next our homes and have them breath this shit over a heated stove for a couple days in a closed chamber. If they come out OK after 20 years with no cancer, no heart attacks, etc. then let the asses dump it on humans that are convinced it by then a good thing, as they have been doing without any study and lying to the public of its safety.
Things very dangerous in wild land fire figting:
1. Bosses that don’t give a fuck about your ass–are willing to risk it and put you in deadly situations by strictly obeying orders from those above them.
2. A partner that thinks the safety rules are Hill Billy–
3.Retardant–has 21 chemicals and ammonia gas–some are carcinogenic, cyanide gas and other compounds created along with lung killing ammonia. (You can loose a lung and you can still function) Don’t believe your FS. They have elements willing to redact, suppress and award people that have fucked up.
4. Flimsy fire blankets that melt in manzanita. False sense of security–don’t use them when you have a huge boulder pile nearby to get into. Use only in the boulder pile if you have one.
5. Believing that God is going to hang around and save your ass when you are breaking all sensible rules of safety.
6. Allowing yourself to believe there are such things as Greek Gods of Fire Fighting. A myth, when you see that a Greek God of Fire Fighting has a bad history of risk taking you better find another Greek God, then use your brain,
Dropping off into a box canyon filled with manzanita and a raging fire just around the bend and a 45 mph wind predicted to change the direction at any time.
This is a miner’s idea of some things concerning staying alive in a wild land fire. If you are camped out and near a lightening strike and physically able to take your shovel there immediately–especially if it is in the boulders–get up there quick and contain the damn thing. You will be a hero and save lives and millions in tax dollars and even save your camp as well.
WTKTT
Many of us Fire Fighters have been in that position of our life time in fire. NO SIDE AFFECTS.
I was hit wit Retardant on numerous occasions working line where retardant was dropped pre and post as well. NO SIDE AFFECTS. nor to any one I personally know.
I also supervised a mix plant and loading ramp for 8 years on the Sawtooth NF. Twin Falls Tanker Base.
My assistant ran it for 10 years and had no side affects from 1974 to 1984.
I do not know what else to tell you.
Toxic to Humans seems to be a far stretch to me.
Ya there is a strong smell of ammonia. Toxic ??????
Yes… you have pointed all that out before… and once again I would say “Good for you” ( and the limited subset of people you know with similar exposure ).
But maybe you ( and they ) are just “lucky”.
I gather you ( and the ones you mention ) were all in pretty damn good shape when all this ‘exposure’ was taking place. No already-compromised respiratory systems, no severe allergies, no bad asthma, etc. etc.
The point here is that even in addition to there NEVER having been a FULL study of ‘Health Effects’ with regards to ALL of the ‘ingredients’ being used in this crap… even the bogus study that WAS done admits it paid NO attention to either AGE or pre-existing health conditions.
What has happened in Yarnell following that disaster is unusual… and borders on ‘another disaster’ all unto itself… and it deserves to be studied.
This sort of thing is EXACTLY what the CDC’s NIFC investigation unit is all about… and I’m surprised they haven’t picked up on this yet and launched their own ‘investigation’.
Maybe it’s not even the ‘retardant’. Maybe it’s something else ( which deserves to be understood ).
But Sonny’s math is correct.
If you apply the DEATH RATE in the Yarnell area following the fire to the full general population of the USA… you are talking about 41 MILLION DEATHS in a specific area… and just since Yarnell.
Let me put that into perspective for you.
The most populated state in the entire USA is California… but even California only has about 38 million people.
So imagine if… in just a 3 year period… the ENTIRE State of California was ‘wiped out’ for some mysterious reason(s).
THAT really is the statistical magnitude of what is ( and has been ) happening in Yarnell.
Sorry to say knowing Arizona and all the older people that go there with different ailments there is a higher death in some of those retirement areas. People with Congestive Hart Failure go to low humidity areas. Many go that have cancer and others that are over 70. Lung and breathing problems go to Arizona.
It is what it is.
I do not know if there is a static in Sun City Arizona but that is a retirement place that has a high death rate as well
WTKTT
What do you mean the limited Subset of People I know????
I am talking Thousands of FF’s
and Hundreds I know.
If that is limited I’ll stand corrected.
The way you say the people in Yarnell were Dying would indicate that many FF would be doing the same after a large exposure that is not happening.as far as Age there are many in their 50s that are and have been exposed to Retardant.
We were exposed to the earlier retardants that had the chemicals that were killing fish.
Again no side affects.
I am not just talking about my self I am talking about many FF I know who are retired and many who are still working.
No there is no effect from retardant two Retired or working Wild Land FF. Related to Lung Damage or other Chemical afflictions.
**
** TWISP FIRE TRAGEDY – ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY
Twisp River Fire: August 19, 2015
Deceased: US Forestry employee Tom Zbyszewski, 20
Deceased: US Forestry employee Andrew Zajac, 26
Deceased: US Forestry employee Richard Wheeler, 31
Severely Injured: US Forestry employee Daniel Lyon, 26
No more poignant way to mark the first ‘anniversary’ of the Twisp Fire tragedy than to pause for a moment and listen to the WORDS coming from the lone Survivor of that tragedy AND some of the ‘family members’…
** Jennifer Zbyszewski, Lifelong US Forestry employee and the
** MOTHER of deceased US Forestry employee Tom Zbyszewski.
KOMO NEWS
Article Title: Twisp parents reflect one year after fire
http://komonews.com/news/local/i-just-want-to-remember-how-much-i-loved-him
—————————————————————————–
TWISP, Wash. — There’s no official marker. No sign, no banner, no post in the ground.
Instead, it requires wandering off of Highway 20, driving 10 minutes west, and turning down a winding dirt road. The path bends and curves as it snakes its way up into the hillside. There are signs telling people to turn away.
Jennifer Zbyszewski understands that.
One of the firefighters ( killed on Woods Canyon Road ) was her only son, Tom.
“He grew up in the Forest Service. I worked there his whole life,” Jennifer said.
“It’s not comforting for me to go there. It’s heart-wrenching, because it looks like a simple situation that shouldn’t have happened,” Zbyszewski says.
——————————————————————————-
Again ( and worth repeating )… Jennifer Zbyszewski’s comment about her son losing his life after being sent up a residential road to protect an EMPTY house… ABOVE an uncontained wildfire…
“It looks like a simple situation that SHOULDN’T HAVE HAPPENED.”
More quote(s)…
** Daniel Lyon – Former US Forestry employee and sole survivor
** from the crew of ‘Engine 642’.
NOTE: The following ‘quotes’ are from THREE different ‘interviews’ that sole survivor Daniel Lyon has granted on the occasion of this first anniversary of the Twisp tragedy.
1. The Seattle Times – Article: “Out of the Flames of Hell”.
2. The Seattle Met – Article: “Every Other Day, I Was a Ball of Tears”.
3. K5-NBC – Article: “Injured firegither talks opens up about recovery”.
——————————————————————————-
As the anniversary of the Twisp fire approaches, Daniel Lyon says he’d like fire agencies, homeowners and the general public to think twice about sending fire crews into danger to protect rural homes, a view shared by Tom Zbyszewski’s parents.
“Looking back on it, if it were up to me, most of these wildfires, they need to let them burn if lives are at risk,”
Lyon says. “Once you lose a firefighter, they ain’t coming back.”
The hardest thing to know how to respond to is when people say, “There’s a reason you’re here.”
There’s a reason my buddies should be here too.
I still get to go through life and enjoy thngs. Little things.
And… uh… ya know… I have three buddies who don’t get to do that anymore.
People can’t see at night the emotional stuff you go through.
You have a lot of mental flashbacks about what happened… and you constantly have to relive the story.
If we can hopefully save a life from this kind of loss… then that’s really the only good thing that can come out of it at this point.
Daniel Lyon
————————————————————————————–
“Daniel Lyon says he’d like fire AGENCIES, homeowners and the general public to THINK TWICE about sending fire crews into danger to PROTECT RURAL HOMES…”
“…a view SHARED by Tom Zbyszewski’s PARENTS.”
“If we can hopefully SAVE A LIFE from THIS kind of loss… then that’s really the only good thing that can come out of it at this point.”
Well if they set aside 320 acres for 19 wild land fire fighters that sets a precedent. That means 16.84 acres of land needs to be set aside as a memorial for every wild land fire fighter that dies from this point forward. In the case of two deaths that translates to 34 acres of that California turf where they died needs to be restricted–only the widows can tromp there and only the local Fire Chief can determine who else beside the widows can visit and pay homage. Also they need to set aside a nice parking lot and make a trail so people can view the death site from a distance.
If you think this is absurd then you dishonor those men that do not get equal treatment for their heroic efforts at fighting fire.
Common sense goes a long ways and in America we want to treat all in fairness. No matter if you fuck up as a fire man, you kill your crew, you still ought to get accolades, get land set aside, and be able to fly in a jet air plane.
Is there something I am missing? Sorry, but if you do otherwise, then you cheat some.
No the above comment was not in jest but in all seriousness. The men that have died in the Twisp fire deserve every bit as much attention as the 19 here. To deny them a 34 acre restricted memorial site, a fence, a parking lot and trail, and a commander over that area is a dishonor to those men. If this happens, there will be a lot less wild land fire fighter deaths because people might start loosing areas they cherish. For example Joy lost an area she used to hike a lot in and loved to visit. When people get burned, they will start to demand the real reasons these men are being killed.
This was a tragedy that once exposed properly and depicted in the media and on film in truth will change much to save future wild land fire fighter lives. I am certain many can not handle the truth that were directly involved in the tragedy. I am talking of the supposed heroes that managed this fire and caused those deaths on the main. Some of their family, friends and supporters want to detract from the facts, and it is understandable to some degree, I suppose. But a fuck up is a fuck up, and what we got at Yarnell concerning the lightening stike that was allowed to become a situation that the management lost control of became a historical fuck up managed by none other than Eric Marsh directing Jesse Steed and both being at the mercy of the structure protectors above them. Forget the talk of how is your comfort level shit. Words spoken by your commander in a strictly obey orders (well understood meaning) or else can be softly said, but to do otherwise in this type system can cost your job. When we see double dipping Willis and Marsh about to follow suit, good lord, why would you question a man who knows his shit, and got there because he knew how to take orders and smooth the flow. Rocking the boat would get you rocked in that type system. The old saying of who you know and not what you know definitely applied here, still does. To let out the truth would upset the tax payer (who is he, the cronies are the experts). Definitely withhold information, make it costly and hard to even get the redacted and I mean essential information redacted pages. But even with so many redactions, people (especially those like WTKTT, Gary Olsen, Dr. Ted Putnam, JD and etc. of high quality intelligence and experience in investigations) filter out the bull shit and come to the facts. You just can not get by these fellows that have been there and are not green behind the ears. If you think you can cover up and make swine into sweet wine then you have your finger up your ass and your brain is fogged. But this is good and it is the good god we like to see–the one willing to speak the truth and his minions of truth.
It fattened some pocket books, and cronies handed out awards like candy and lies bolstered up a failed effort. Swine became sweet wine for a time. But life and truth are as they are–both unforgiving if you indeed want to continue in the lie.
The movie makers turn from the truth of the real situation–but like many of the books already written they do reveal personal lives. But why not get a truthful and valuable title of meaning like–How to Kill 17 Young Men if You Are a Wild Land Fire Fighting Boss or something that actually happened at Yarnell and will actually bring people to understand how it happened and what might be done to change this type tragedy.
This was a horror story–something I see akin to the doctor that killed an estimated 160 patients, but hospitals kept giving him accolades and good recommendations despite their knowing he was either killing his patients or was indeed a stupid physician. They did not want him exposed and tainting their hospital reputation. People do not go to hospitals that have doctors that kill unless they are unaware of those incidents. Only other doctors knew and they kept their mouths shut. Except we see here that Provencio, RTS, Dr. Ted Putnam and plenty others in this wild land fire fighting profession did not keep their mouths shut, but those in higher positions have labored–like the hospital elite–to keep any true thing this might taint their reputations to be redacted, hidden, or avoided so that the system flows with all glory possible.
It is an old English slave ship. Chains and shackles and a beating if you protest. But some where along the line those you shackled and chained come back at you with the truth. You fucked them over, now we need to know why and what remedy the slave traders can do to correct their evil.
If you make a psychological study of allowing most individuals to gain power, you will see that it always go awry. When a simple study of allowing Berkeley college students to become either a prisoner or a guard, the abuses of the guards became so violent in less than two weeks that this experiment had to be stopped. It reminds me of the ability of the GMHS bosses to become labeled as Greek Gods able to make you do 20 or 30 like my Basic Army training that I understand how mind controlled these men had become. In civilian life to be ordered that way would indeed be abusive. In the military I do understand war and the need to be at another’s absolute command. But at Yarnell it needlessly cost those 17 lives.
Especial thanks to WTKTT, Gary Olson, Ted Putnam–
WTKTT makes all us of Irish decent proud–has something few have in analytical abilities.
Gary Olson is old, wise and fearless. Traits and values the cowards that covered the truth and continue to do will never have.
Ted Putnam loves life and has dedicated himself to helping keep alive future wild land fire fighters by exposing the truth. Anyone that jumps out of an airplane into a blazing fire and stays alive after 15 years of doing it is beyond a doctorate–not one to tangle with–he has knowledge and understanding that will direct people beyond even staying alive in a fire situation.
Sonny Gilligan–a fellow that appreciates all the good men above and all those that work so hard at getting to what can save young lives.
Charlie,
It’s ironic that GM required approximately 16.5 ac of a safety zone to survive the radiant heat according to the research. Of course this does not take into consideration of numerous other factors in determining safety zone size, not the least of which is convective heat. Truth is nobody knows how big is big enough but your 16.84 number in this case is interesting. And no, I don’t believe anyone ran the numbers in the land donation scheme.
Woodsman
I had not though of it that way Woodsman. That boulder pile near them was beyond the 16.5 acres and if you have a chance to go there to the site you will see that they could have made it there in less time than the cutting out and piling brush they did. I guess the Greek Gods missed that one and there were a number of places you could get down below and under huge boulders.
Oddly when I hiked to a place we are told Donut stood and decided to go to the grader site, he was in an area that had a few boulders about. But if I was at the correct place, then right below it was a deep depression below the boulders –about six feet down where one to five men could have dropped down and let the fire go over or around. Pulaski saved his men by keeping them in a mine tunnel, where I believe if below the fire would be even safer since heat rises or lies level to the ground.
I see the system as a mind fuck when men are willing to do what they know was wrong because their bosses are Greek Gods. True the men were very young, but were relying on the experience of their risk taking bosses to keep them alive, I believe without a good knowledge of what not to do and what are absolute no-nos in wild land fire fighting such as dropping off into that entanglement of manzanita with no escape and even though Marsh and Steed had weather warnings of extreme wind changes coming their way. I did not need those weather warnings–you could see the storms to the NE and knew they would be from the east headed toward Yarnell. Donut taught us the disdain for safety rules–he did not need to know them–he was smart enough to barely escape before without them and now had he not lucked out with Frisby showing up, he too would be a casualty.
It goes to show there `are plenty of errors and careless actions that need to be exposed and addressed. Plenty of guys like yourself with long time wild land fire fighting experience know this. Yet I am certain there are many crews that are run on with the common sense rules in mind–Provencio speaks of how he saw that Marsh was a risk taker with his men and doing things against all good common sense. Perhaps Marsh had hoped to show up other crews by those risks, but he certainly failed as a wild land fire fighter superintendent by killing all his crew, and then himself as well.
Whether or not they make a hero out of the bosses, I really do not care. But tell the truth at the same time. I personally don’t know how you can be a hero by killing your crew by doing everything at risk and against all fire fighting safety rules. Some say the rules are just suggestions, then if so all common sense was broken and undue risk taken. That is what Dr. Ted Putnam wants and I think every wild land fire fighting boss worth his beans.
I would think most of the wild land fire fighters think structure protection is taboo for the wild land fire fighter, Mixing them is dangerous. Let the structure protectors do their job–they have the equipment, tanks, knowledge, etc. to do that job and it is quite different to what we see wild land fire fighters doing. I think a citizen is just about equipped as much or better with a garden hose to do that than a wild land fire fighter. That is especially true in 45mph winds with thick manzanita laying down flames out 50-100ft and embers flying for hundreds of yards. One can only say what were these bosses thinking to risk men in a no win situation like that?
Thanks for sharing this from Daniel Lyon WTKTT. Joy showed me a photo of my son’s tombstone. He has a diver in full helmet and suit on the life line with bubbles coming off the diving suit carved on the tombstone. He, like the wild land fire fighter entered a profession that was dangerous and depended upon those above and around him to make sure he returned from his missions alive. Their diligence kept him alive, that is until one day the bosses that managed things failed. Their negligence at first cost him to loss an arm as he was torn apart in a wench. Then in time he was killed by a negligent change in medication, but even at that time of his death he was a straight A chemical engineering student. Ironically I will soon be talking to a chemical engineer-.
When I see the many young lives that were wasted at Yarnell, I know the value of those lives lost and their heroism. David Lyon speaks well about how important it is to do strict attention and give utmost importance to protecting those young lives. When leadership does not give due diligence to that mandate, then the system that allowed those supervisors to direct those young lives becomes a threat and needs to be cured.
**
** JAEWNIIP
**
** Just ANOTHER Entrapment With No Investigation In Progress
And this one was NASTY.
– Took place just recently, on July 23, 2016, on the ‘Sand’ fire.
– 14 ( FOURTEEN ) Firefighters had to ‘shelter in place’ to survive, apparently inside a structure at the Bear Divide Ranger Station.
– Most of the other buildings at the Station then ( apparently ) burned down.
– Forest Service vehicle also destroyed in the ‘burnover’.
And the ONLY reason there is anything appearing at SAFENET is because whoever filed
the SAFENET has come to realize this incident has NOT been properly reported, or is
even being investigated ( yet ).
From the END of the SAFENET report…
“As of this date I believe there has been no CA-1’s, CA-2’s or Exposure forms filed, nor has any of the employees been medically checked out for the exposure to Hazard Material smoke and particulates.
In Summary it is common knowledge what took place at Bear Divide Fire Station, with five residences burning down and a Forest Service vehicle destroyed and a shelter in place Burn Over Entrapment by 14 Firefighters that it warrants an immediate investigation so that the lessons learned from this can be shared with all fire personnel to avoid future entrapments.”
Here is the actual SAFENET just recently filed…
http://safenet.nifc.gov/view_safenet.cfm?id=36548&__ncforminfo=02BhvxBv2ef5tRUuXcU-FiE_w-GX5weUcjI2iqSjkDOcuTsa3MXsTHLA5XbljgEYAT2ZYGRWqHtOuVsLn37-BtetkPy5id3T
The contents of this SAFENET report…
————————————————————————
SAFENET – Wildland Fire Safety & Health Reporting Network
SAFENET Event Information
SAFENET ID: 20160810-0002 – [Corrective Actions]
Event Start Date: 07/23/2016 1525
Event Stop Date: 07/23/2016 1725
Incident Name: Sand
Fire Number: ANF-3164
State: California
Jurisdiction: USFS
Local Unit: Angeles National Forest Los Angeles River Ranger District
Incident Type: Wildland
Incident Activity: Line
Stage of Incident: Extended Attack
Position Title: ( No entry )
Task: Structure Protection
Management Level: 3
Resources Involved: ( No entry )
Contributing Factors
– Contributing Factors: Fire Behavior, Communications, Human Factors
– Human Factors: Decision Making, Leadership, Situational Awareness
– Other Factors: ( No entry )
Narrative
Reporting Individual: Describe in detail what happened including the concern or potential issue, the environment (weather, terrain, fire behavior, etc), and the resulting health issue.
On July 23, 2016 at approximately at 15:15 Hours The Sand Fire Angeles National Forest Incident Number ANF-3164, an “in-alignment fire run Burned Over” The Bear Divide fire station, entrapping 14 Firefighters.
The Firefighters led by Structure Group had to make decisive decision during flight or fight and made the correct decision by giving the command through leader’s intent for all 14 Firefighters to “Shelter In Place”!
Because of the situation and fast moving fire, they only had seconds to enter the Bear Divide Hotshot Quarters. Firefighters had to stay sheltered in place for undetermined about of time do to the intense fire behavior, heat and Hazardous Smoke from 5 residents that caught fire. A Forest Service recreation vehicle was also on fire. Adding to the exposure to Hazardous Material Smoke to all 14 firefighters.
Once the fire crossed Little Tujunga canyon road from the east and was now posing a threat to the station, a firing operation commenced by that time it was to late and over the radio the words “Run Run Run” all 14 firefighters made it into the Bear Divide Hotshot quarters.
As of this date I believe there has been no CA-1’s, CA-2’s or Exposure forms filed, nor has any of the employees been medically checked out for the exposure to Hazard Material smoke and particulates.
After reviewing Chapter 18 of the Interagency Standards Fire and Aviation Operations Guide Reviews and Investigations, Wildland Fire Incident and Accident Types and Definitions situation can easily be defined and falls into the category of Near Miss Entrapment “Burn Over”, which would require Washington Office notification.
Immediate Action Taken
Reporting Individual : please describe actions you took to correct or mitigate the unsafe/unhealthful event.
In Summary it is common knowledge what took place at Bear Divide Fire Station, with five residences burning down and a Forest Service vehicle destroyed and a shelter in place Burn Over Entrapment by 14 Firefighters that it warrants an immediate investigation so that the lessons learned from this can be shared with all fire personnel to avoid future entrapments.
Corrective Actions
20160810-0002-CA001
————————————————————————
And a little about the Yarnell entrapment and corrections there of. Joy did inform me that 90 deaths since the fire is not correct. The number has increased to 110. Twenty more than I thought. One hundred ten is almost exactly 1/6 of the population. In percentages that is rounded off to 17% of our population dead after the fire. If 17% of America were decimated since the fire we would have some raised eyebrows–especially if no
EPA, WHO, or other government agencies did not look into the situation. But if the government agencies did not look closely at 19 deaths why would 110 deaths mean anything considering these are civilian deaths–non hero types–you know mostly elderly who do not seem to count highly on the roster.
So, with the Yarnell Fire we got huge tanker loads in jumbo jets dropped on us to the tune of over 230,000 gallons. Now we have the Tenderfoot Fire that again recently dumped more hundreds of thousands of gallons to the East side of Yarnell and again within a few feet of those residences. Before they were dumped to the west side and north sides–this time all along the East of Yarnell and Glen Isla. This is a great experiment of the health effects, especially on the elderly with already compromised health. We now have the town well surrounded with unknown chemical soup never term evaluated for health effects, so maybe we can see how many new victims will fall to this chemical soup called argent orange retardant.
— I think the same Jumbo Jet was used for a dumper, maybe even the same pilot and chemical release big business (millions involved here). I don’t know if the same secret ingredients in the lung killing ammonium nitrates and phosphates were there since they are unknown and can range from 8-16% trade secret. Maybe even more if the fellows that mix the deadly soup slip up on their mix. Trade secrets when this shit is dumped near humans? Unconscionable I say–God forbid you dump one barrel of chemical shit, even diesel fuel waste and EPA finds out and good reason. Human health and safety are foremost–at least on a small scale dump.
Sad thing this killer shit was dumped to stop the back burn started by the local fire department. They supposedly saved the town even though the fire was completely over the mountain and winds to the east–no weather change in site and winds did as predicted, After all the weather was clear all the time of the fire. Kuykendahl and his haunting words–“Common Sense goes a long ways”, very appropriate in the fire fighting world. But we will look the other way–these were structure protectors, not wild land fire fighters by profession.
WTKTT knows the amount dumped during the Tenderfoot Fire and I hope he does post it. Considering that 16% of 236,000 gallons is 37,760 gallons of unknown chemicals beyond the ammonium nitrates and phoshpates, good lord that is equal to 686 and a half 55 gallon drums of this unknown shit in that Yarnell dump in our back yards just during the Yarnell debacle. I suspect that you can double that now with the Tenderfoot Fire, so that we have 1372 drums of that chemical surrounding our abodes. I hope your kids are not playing in it and be sure not to put any in your fish bowl or drink or garden with the run off waters–fish die immediately from its effects–supposedly the long term effects on humans are known. They claim to know the short term effects even though no scientific studies to date have been made.
Kind of reminds me, if you are a spelunker or like to investigate mine holes–always take a canary or your pet parakeet along. If that fellow keels over dead, he is giving you five minutes or so to get to fresher air. Maybe we need to carry a gold fish bowl around Yarnell. That five minutes or so goes to no minutes if it is concentrated radon–Some remember when we used to put our heads between our legs as kids when practicing for a nuke attack in the 50’s and 60’s. Only reason to do that is to kiss your ass good bye. But in the case of all chemicals and uranium low or high grade, the effects are time bombs on your health.
I am not kidding about this, it all happened. Not only did we get these chemicals called in to decorate our neighborhoods, we were declared a war zone again and the back burn even burned out the electrical system for a number of days–enough to drive people again to shelters and spoil their food while they were gone. My sis, when it happened the lights went out in Mesa for some time was in Phoenix. Her large freezer of frozen meat and other foods had rotted so badly that even after cleaning it, the smell remained so that she had to replace the freezer as well.
I certainly think this thing should have a very close investigation, not only in the 19 deaths but also in the 110 non hero deaths since the Yarnell Fire some years ago. This chemical soup is dangerous as most chemicals are. I know, some of these fire men will say, Oh shit, the Forest Service and these companies making billions off these retardant dumps will tell you this orange chemical soup is not dangerous. Maybe Gary will rethink it since he now knows he has COPD–on his recent post. He ain’t no (double negatives and slang OK by the Irish if you get the point) crybaby but damn sure deserves compensation for that malady as much as any mesothelioma patient does–and maybe some of the 110 Yarnellites do as well.
I mention Glen Isla and Yarnell–the combined census was 645 before the fire but many left and now also reduce that number by 110–likely a few more by the time I visit with a chemical engineer to see what his thoughts are on this soup.
Oh, Joy has given almost $60 to the local Yarnell Fire Department to get the FOIA. Her inquiry as to why she still does not have it is because the chief is on vacation. We did see his pretty HumVee among many other official trucks down at the memorial parking spot the tax payer paid $678,000 for. Maybe he is back and she will get the info she is seeking.
Sad that too many forget they are humbled by being public servants–they must answer the tax payer questions–after all their pay checks are made by the sweat off the backs and works of the citizen. An accounting for 19 lives, 110 local lives, and millions of wasted dollars tax money due to error and negligent actions must be made.
That was a gross error on my part–since the ammonia soup is also a lung killing chemical with unknown term effects the actual number of 55 gallon drums of chemical dropped during the Yarnell fire would be 4, 291 drums of chemical soup. That is about 7 drums of chemical for each person before the fire. Well if that is not enough, add the Tenderfoot fire dump and you have at least 7 more drums for the already depleted population. But do not fear, these big businesses, their specialists and doctors on their payroll will be glad to assure you–as will your State Forest Service–you have no reason for concern.
The title of this site is the Yarnell Hill Fire. Some will wonder why other fires since and before this are discussed. If you do not change your clothes it is a good idea to wash them. We are seeing the same old clothes, and there has been so much washing they have gotten some big holes. The Yarnell Fire was a huge hole exposing some nasty parts. It is time for coming clean with a new suit of clothes.
El Cajon fire–Since I mined in a gold mine about seven miles east of Pine Valley, I was very close to El Cajon. Those mountains had the same manzanita growth we witnessed in the area–especially around that mine. If you go to the Doce fire area and pass on through the burned area for a mile or so you will again see what was burned away and trapped the GMHS crew. As a citizen, you will be amazed at the entanglement right off the road for a number of miles adjoining the Doce burn off that lies just beyond it on the Iron Springs Road leading from Prescott to Skull Valley. You will see a few ATV trails into that shit and you will know even though you are not a fire man, that if that ATV dies, God forbid a fire breaks out. That is the shit those men got trapped into and not even an ATV trail to try to out run a 45mph wind and said to be an 11mph fire advance. I can tell you that 11mph is a dumb estimate on an uphill run (they were going downhill toward the fire edge). With embers flying beyond you in that shit there would be no escape. Forget those flimsy fire blankets –put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye time. If you go below the Doce fire you will see there isn’t even a nearby bare boulder SZ to run to in most of that terrain. What defies imagination if you bother to visit the area, is why anyone, much less a wild land fire fighter would get himself in a no escape, suicide situation, when you clearly see the deathly action to go there.
But why we need to get past the hero cover up and come to the truth. Why keep sacrificing fire men, when the reasons these men are dead is already well known.
Now we have movie men making up more hero worship. Sad indeed, but we have 110 elderly dead here after the fire, no mention there I am sure. So damn many errors, bad judgements, bad bosses that had lack of common sense in wild land fire fighting to protect those they bossed, and a huge waste of tax payer millions, yet we play the stupid game allowing this to go on as an accident or God thing. If your God had other things for these men to do so he killed these young souls then he is fucked up in the head. Get real and expose the poor management, the poorly advised and trained supervisors and the hiring of risk taking superintendents and others willing to risk lives for vacant structures.
I was an acquaintance of Dave, Dolan Springs fire chief. I once asked him after noticing all the structures that burned around Dolan Springs that none were saved–I said why not? He explained that we are not trained to save structures but only to contain the burning structure so the fire does not spread. He said it is too dangerous to risk lives for a structure. That was a structure fire man talking–he was right–if it was a deal where he had to risk his men or his life to save a structure, forget it. But here at Yarnell we saw the risk and killing of 17 young men by so wild land fire fighters. I think Dave, though a structure specialist, would have been a Dr. Putnam, Gary Olsen, Provencio, RTS, Woodsman, Powers, Norb or any one of the many wild land fire fighter bosses I have met and said –sorry fellows, I won’t risk your life by entrapping you in an unimaginable risky situation just to save empty structure. Yet these men are debased for their opinions and right thinking when they should be the heroes in the movie exposing the many errors of judgement from the hiring practices to the stupidity of risking young wild land fire fighters for no good reason.
Indeed you can be applauded for baking pies or making cookies for these men, but for hiding the truth and playing like the Yarnell death of 19 young wild land fire fighters in the prime of their life was an accident an that Marsh and Steed deserve Greek God status when they were a major part in killing their 17 subordinates, is a lie and will only lead to a continuation of practices that will continue to kill more innocent young souls.
You that condone these practices and hide the truth pat yourselves on the back as though you did a great job at Yarnell, yet half the town burned, a full crew of hot shots died, the tax payer funded a multimillion dollar debacle and I see no shame at all for how this fire was managed and how the 19 died.
Sometimes I see red when 3 local fire departments did not respond to a fire on 320 acres that had been sanctioned as an extreme fire danger–but instead allowed it to turn into a major wild land fire. That was not the climax of the debacle–19 deaths was and is a historic lesson in fire fighting that if the truth is told will save many, many lives and millions in tax money.
The memorial thing is ridiculous as it is being played out. What would be the right action would to make that area a training ground where men could learn how not to fight wild land fires. Let people and future wild land fire fighters know how Marsh and Steed fucked up to kill those under them and how Donut would have succumbed except by good fortune to escape when he also was not savvy to safety and keeping alive in a wild land fire.
Award does go to Blue Ridge wild land fire fighter that saved Donut’s ass. And whoever was setting back fires in the Shrine area were only following orders from headquarters whom certainly did not pay any attention to wind and weather information that should have saved Marsh and his crew.
Hey, don’t get mad at me–these are facts of the way it was and is,
and plenty of men of integrity agree to them. If you want to get in bed with lies it is at the peril of future wild land fire fighter lives. To loose one young life because people worry about their reputation bears a burden on you–not the people that want the truth brought to light.
Reply to Charlie post on August 19, 2016 at 9:30 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> And a little about the Yarnell entrapment and corrections
>> there of. Joy did inform me that 90 deaths since the fire
>> is not correct. The number has increased to 110.
>> Twenty more than I thought. One hundred ten is almost
>> exactly 1/6 of the population. In percentages that is rounded
>> off to 17% of our population dead after the fire.
That’s incredible ( and most likely unprecedented ).
SOMEONE really DOES need to look into all this.
And you are ( and always have been ) absolutely RIGHT about the lack of any ‘comprehensive’ study on the effects to Human Health regarding the most common retardants.
The ONLY ( supposedly ) real ‘scientific’ study that has ever been done was the one that US Forestry was ORDERED to do by a Judge.
An environmental group filed a LAWSUIT against US Forestry some years ago when it discovered that US Forestry had NEVER done any kind of “Effects on Human Health” study for all the new generation of ‘retardants’ they had been willy-nilly dropping all over the landscape for YEARS.
The JUDGE in that LAWSUIT then ORDERED US Forestry to do an “Effects on Human Health” study… but the JUDGE then also inexplicably allowed US Forestry to be the ones to chose WHO would do the study.
They ( US Forestry ) chose a firm that was already closely connected with the US Government and the ‘tests’ were done in THEIR laboratories.
When the final court-ordered ‘Effects on Human Health’ study came out of US Forestry.. the report itself stated flat-out that the ‘tests’ were done WITHOUT knowing what some of the ‘trademark secret ingredients’ were… and even for some of the known ingredients the ‘report’ admitted that no ‘cancer curves’ had EVER been done on even some of those KNOWN ingredients… and that THIS court-ordered study didn’t bother to do them, either.
And the JUDGE in the original case ‘accepted’ all this as ‘valid testing’, and since the ‘results’ of this ‘report’ said that “No known harmful effects to mammals” was found… the lawsuit resolved and that was the end of that.
So to this day… US Forestry ‘quotes’ that original court-ordered ‘report’ ( that didn’t even really test ALL of the ingredients ) when they say that modern aerial fire retardants have ‘no known adverse health effects for mammals’.
But out of the other corner of their mouth… it is STILL part of the RULES of delivery for this ‘stuff’ to NEVER dump it anywhere NEAR any rivers or streams or water supplies and their own RULES also say it really should NEVER be dumped ON any structures or persons.
So it seems even US Forestry knows to ‘doubt’ its OWN taxpayer-paid-for report.
The REAL study remains to be performed… and I’m sure US Forestry will NEVER just do that on their own. It will take ANOTHER lawsuit and this time ( hopefully ) a new JUDGE who will not ‘accept’ a report that knowingly ‘excluded’ ingredients form testing as any kind of VALID ‘Health study’.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Sad thing this killer shit was dumped to stop the back burn
>> started by the local fire department. They supposedly
>> saved the town even though the fire was completely over
>> the mountain and winds to the east–no weather change in
>> site and winds did as predicted,
That’s correct.
The ‘retardant drops’ that were being done in the later afternoon on the ‘Tenderfoot’ fire up there on the north side of Yarnell were specifically designed to keep the manual-backburn that had already been started AWAY from structures ( and Highway 89 ) there on the NORTH side of town… since the firefighters had mis-calculated the actual wind direction when they STARTED those ‘manual ignitions’.
The wind was not blowing UPSLOPE when they started those ignitions.
It was blowing CROSS-SLOPE.
That is why the McKinney workshop/garage burned to the ground as a result of those manual ignitions.
The MEDIA spent the entire afternoon ( and evening ) filming and reporting on the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ as if that fire near town was actually part of the original ‘Tenderfoot Fire’.
It wasn’t.
What they were ‘filming’ and ‘reporting’ on and what the firefighters were trying to CONTAIN for the rest of the afternoon ( and on into dark ) was the massive manual-ignitions that THEY had STARTED there on the east side of Yarnell.
And in ALL of the photos and videos and ‘Air15’ Helicopter footage that exists… there is still NO SIGN of these ‘graded fire breaks’ that Yarnell Chief Ben Palm and then Incident Commander Alan Sinclair kept talking about.
New York Times Correspondent Fernanda Santos showed up there herself in Yarnell that afternoon… and confirmed this is what Ben Palm was telling everyone… and Santos said Palm actually SHOWED her a MAP that had ‘thick red lines’ on it indicating where these ‘graded fire breaks’ were SUPPOSED to have been created with all that grant money that poured into the Yarnell Fire Department.
That MAP which Fernanda Santos said ( in writing ) Chief Ben Palm showed her that very afternoon must still be in Chief Ben Palm’s possession.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> WTKTT knows the amount dumped during the Tenderfoot Fire
>> and I hope he does post it.
Actually… I have NO IDEA how much ‘retardant’ was ‘dumped’ onto the Tenderfoot Fire. The only think I know is that if you watch all of the ‘Air15’ video footage… there were at least 4 full loads ‘dumped’ by VLATs and at least 3 other smaller ‘drops’ by a LAT ( two-engine Large Air Tanker ) that afternoon before ‘air operations’ ceased at dark.
So while no EXACT number has been published… it certainly was a LOT of retardant being ‘concentrated’ on that northern part of Yarnell in order to keep the manual-ignitions headed off to the northeast and not ‘creeping’ back towards town.
One would have to see the same sort of ‘Incident documents’ for the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ that ended up being publicly released for the ‘Yarnell Fire’ to get an EXACT count of how much retardant was dropped where, and when.
There were no graded fire breaks as you said WTKTT. However there were some dirt roads up toward the towers and along the poles that burned half way up the mountain. You could hardly call them fire breaks and the fire went gangbusters up that mountain paying no attention to those two track dirt roads.
I figured you would have the info on the retardant drops–maybe Joy will come up with them in all the FOIA she has requested. Kind of like pulling teeth to get them and here you even get the deputy Sheriff called if you ask for them. But then it seems that Joy scares hell out a few just by her appearance on an issue. But more scary would be Dr. Ted Putnam if he showed up. He just is not known and stupidly denied even a hike to the area as was well respected Gary Olsen. I hope they put this shit in the movie just to get this thing in perspective.
Here is a thought–If after killing your crew, you did your time for your negligence, would you not make a good adviser on how not to kill the next crew? It would like a criminal who had spent a long time in jail advising the younger ones how bad it is to fuck up that way and why the next group of supervisors ought to concern themselves more about the safety of their subordinates and less about their reputation as structure protectors.
Joy is still working on getting the incident reports. I suspect redactions will be rampant.
Joy predicted that Chief Ben Palm would not meet her as he had told his underlings to tell her. She was ten minutes early at the fire station, but I suppose he had other obligations that excused him from coming down to meet Joy and facilitate the FOIA reports Joy wants.
It is amazing to me how much the media portrays the Tenderfoot Fire as saving Yarnell. The public eats up shit like that. So if a cop or a fire man says something it seems to be god writing on gold tablets. Well don’t always believe it. You might be looking for the golden tablets that old Joe Smith claimed he had. Moroni was a bad speller–worse than me. But I won’t hold it against him, my sis is Mormon. Joy is Nomron a backward mormon. Women that have many husbands are nomrons, mormons spelled in reverse.
Religion is a soothing agent to fools that want to donate to fellows that do not like to do diligent and useful work. Old Jesus said sell your shit and go preach. Someone will give you food. But these modern day takers use religion to do what Jesus said–like to be seen for their dress and bull shit and lord it over the masses. On occasion I have had a number of drinks with Jesus. Many of the Mexican men like the name Jesus on their kids so you can get drunk with Jesus there just about anytime. I feel for the Mormon kids on bikes in tie and suit on hot days trying to do their good thing. A few of them wise up in older ages–but then if they get into the big times forget it. The enjoyment of being seen like they have a fucking pipe line to God ruins them. Hey, I am not picking on Mormons some with good morals but like all religions–fucked up==control issues You can fool some people but not all people.
These control things is what kills people. Control issues killed the 19. This is serious business that needs to be addressed. But then, there are always willing fools to go die for a cause and if it is not structures then there are some that will even strap explosives around their body to kill themselves and others thinking it is a good thing. Those fellows claim good morals too–some even have plenty concubines. Again, you see how convinced humans become in the religious realm to do such shit–even to the point of thinking 70 virgins are awaiting them if they do so. Good god isn’t one or two virgins enough for these guys?
A few do escape the Sharia bull shit–and you think this is not related to wild land fire fighting or underground mining? Well in the US at least, probably you do not find a hell of a lot of virgins–but who here is looking for virgins?
Control issues–how about Waco the Whaco? People believe him–the government is very serious–they killed the whole bunch, even the kids there. These swat team boys like to practice on people like that. But then there was wrong by the whaco swat teams since it would have been no problem to either lock up Koresh or shoot him when he visited in town. But then in America you have the right to believe in any whaco you want to. It can get you killed if you are too simple, and even if not if you are near enough to that type action. I think some of the swatters killed their own accidentally in that screw up.
The point is the babies gave away their minds to fools. And so they killed Jesus and according to historical records continued to kill followers. But the followers think they have it made by being a martyr. Let me tell you the gods that be don’t care for ignorant fools. So be very careful of your boss–there is no guarantee to get to 70 virgins or play a harp if you allow your boss to kill you. Your boss can be a miner, David Koresh, a wild land fire fighter superintendent. It will never be Sonny but Maybe old Buddha knew something on the side that could keep you alive.
Advice to young wild land fire fighters–get hold of the old timers–RTS, Bob Powers, Gary Olsen, Ted Putnam–they are alive and kept their men alive because they knew something that your Yarnell bosses did not.
Followup…
The ‘destruction’ of ‘residences’ ( at least FIVE ) at this ‘Bear Divide Fire Station’ actually WAS ‘in the news’ a little over 2 weeks ago… but the SAFENET report filed ( see above ) is the first we are hearing of the close-call entrapment of up to 14 ( FOURTEEN ) firefighters forced to “shelter in place” at that same ‘Bear Divide Fire Station’.
Here is Wildfire Today’s Bill Gabbert ‘reporting’ on that ‘Sand Fire’ destruction at that ‘Bear Divide Fire Station/Camp’ ( complete with some photos of the destruction )… but at NO TIME does writer Bill Gabbert ( or any of his article ‘commenters’ ) mention there was also an ‘entrapment’ situation involving 14 ( FOURTEEN ) firefighters…
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Sand fire destroys homes near fire station in the Angeles National Forest
Published: July 27, 2016
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/07/27/sand-fire-destroys-fire-station-in-the-angeles-national-forest/
From that ( very brief ) article…
———————————————————————————–
PHOTO: Shows destruction at the ‘Bear Divide Fire Station’
PHOTO CAPTION: “The remains of one of the Bear Divide Ranger Station buildings in the burned Angeles Forest.”
Five homes that were a part of the Angeles National Forest’s Bear Divide Ranger Station were destroyed by the Sand fire, officials announced a press conference on Monday.
The buildings were home to several firefighters, several of whom were fighting the Sand fire, The L.A. Times reported.
Read more about the Sand fire here. ( clickable link ).
( This photo of the Bear Divide Ranger Station was shared with us by a reader. Date, time and other credit info are unknown. )
** COMMENTS made on this article…
2 thoughts on “Sand fire destroys homes near fire station in the Angeles National Forest”
Comment by: Ken – July 27, 2016 at 9:42 pm,
The Bear Divide Fire Station was not destroyed. Some govt residences and trailers on govt trailer pads were destroyed.
Comment by: Darin – July 27, 2016 at 9:51 pm
It wasn’t actually the fire station right? It was a few residences associated with the fire station. Your headline is misleading.
———————————————————————————–
Nothin to see here, move along… Nothing happened…
**
** ENTRAPMENT AT THE ‘BLUE CUT’ FIRE – CAJON PASS – CA
**
** 48 HOURS AGO – NO DEATHS… BUT SOME INJURIES
The Victor Valley News
Article Title: Firefighters Injured After Being Entrapped By Blue Cut Fire
Published: August 16, 2016
Updated: August 18, 2016
http://www.vvng.com/firefighters-injured-after-being-entrapped-by-blue-cut-fire/
From that article…
————————————————————————————————-
Firefighters Injured After Being Entrapped By Blue Cut Fire
Cajon Pass, CA – SIX firefighters became entrapped by wildfire today while defending homes and assisting evacuations in the Swarthout Canyon area west of Cajon Pass.
The six firefighters were part of two San Bernardino County Fire (SBCoFD) engine companies assigned to the area northwest of Cajon Blvd.
Firefighters were able to shelter in place within a nearby structure, but two firefighters sustained minor injuries. Both firefighters were transported to a local hospital where they were treated and released and are now back on the fire line defending structures.
One SBCoFD fire engine sustained moderate fire damage.
——————————————————————————————————–
There is NOTHING about anyone doing an ‘investigation’ of this ‘entrapment with injuries’.
One of the reasons might be that I believe the ‘tripwire’ for whether an ‘investigation’ is mandatory is whether or not there are a minimum of THREE firefighters ‘injured’, or not.
In this case… only TWO of the firefighters in the entrapment were sent to the hospital, but they were also then just ‘treated and released’ and are now ( according to the article above ) simply (quote) “back on the fire line DEFENDING STRUCTURES” again.
Forget the fact that an ENGINE appears to also have been almost destroyed.
That, alone, does not appear to ever be reason enough to ‘mandate’ an ‘investigation’.
What is fairly IRONIC here is that THIS ‘entrapment’ just 48 hours ago appears to have taken place in the EXACT same specific ‘area’ ( the Swarthout Canyon area west of Cajon Pass ) where one of the FIRST known ‘shelter deployments’ ever took place back on June 22, 1964.
That June 22, 1964 ‘entrapment’ took place in the very SAME ‘Cajon Pass’ area as this most recent ‘entrapment’… and involved 36 members of the the El Cariso Hotshots.
Yes… the same ‘El Cariso’ Hotshots who would then go on to have 12 members of their crew DIE in the ‘Loop Fire’ on the Angeles National Forest just 2 years later… on November 1, 1966.
Wildfire Today
Article Title: One of the first times a fire shelter was used
Published: November 12, 2013 – By Bill Gabbert
http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/11/12/one-of-the-first-times-a-fire-shelter-was-used/
From that article…
————————————————————————————————-
El Cariso Hotshots entrapment, June 22, 1964 – CAJON PASS, CA…
A former member of the El Cariso Hotshots, a southern California crew based on the Cleveland National Forest, sent us a copy of a newspaper article from August 9, 1964 that described a “new three-pound bodyguard” carried by U.S. Forest Service firefighters. It was one of the early versions of the tent-like aluminum fire shelters which are now standard issue for most wildland firefighters in the United States.
But what was news to me was an entrapment of 36 members of El Cariso on June 22 of that year when they deployed their shelters on a fire near San Bernardino County’s Cajon Pass
The article said they set an escape fire, then deployed the shelters in the freshly blackened area.
No one was burned, except for one crewmember who was in a different location and did not use his fire shelter. He suffered serious burns which could have been worse, Lynn Biddison the Forest Fire Control Officer said, if he had not been wearing another new piece of equipment, a cotton shirt treated to be fire resistant.
The Hotshots were told at the time that it was the first time fire shelters had been deployed in a life-saving situation.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe when 12 members of El Cariso were entrapped and killed on the Loop Fire on the Angeles National Forest two years later on November 1, 1966, they were not carrying their fire shelters because a decision had been made that it was not necessary because the fire was relatively quiet.
NOTE: This article was UPDATED the NEXT DAY, on November 13, 2013, by Bill Gabbert
Concerning the use of fire shelters on the Look Fire, below is a passage from the ( official ) report on that fatal fire:
King and his assistant, Burchett, had organized their “Hot Shots” into two crews instead of the normal three crews as they were less than full strength at the time of this fire call. Foreman Leak was in charge of the lead crew and Foreman Moore in charge of the rear crew. They left their fire shelters on their truck. Their fire resistant shirts had worn out and were not replaced prior to this fire call. Angeles National Forest radios were not available for assignment to King as the last one at Contractor’s Point had been previously given to the Del Rosa crew.
—————————————————————————————————
WTKTT, I emailed you a short video clip from inside the Bear Divide Barracks as the Sand Fire burned around it
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 19, 2016 at 6:50 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT, I emailed you a short video clip from inside the Bear
>> Divide Barracks as the Sand Fire burned around it.
Thanks. Short indeed. Only 6 seconds long?
Or did something go haywire with my download?
Also… original 3GP video quality is poor and it’s hard to really
make anything out ( but the FIRE does sound like a ‘freight train’, fer sure ).
Where did you get this video?
WTKTT, yes, the video clip from the HS Crew is only 6 seconds. I’m sure there are more. I sent it to you with hopes you’d be able to post it on IM.
The Corrective Action by Pete Duncan within the SAFENET was nothing more than a rephrasing of the event and what occurred. It appears this one may be on its way to a coverup. I heard the HS wanted to fire off around the station early and were told it was too soon. Big mistake. It took less than 30 seconds to run up a chute at them.
WTKTT,
CORRECTION: The short video clip is from the entrapped SBFD Engine FF’s seeking refuge in the Bear Divide HS Barracks.
It should read: “yes, the video clip from the SBFD Engine Crew is only 6 seconds …”
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
August 20, 2016 at 8:59 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT, yes, the video clip from the HS Crew is only 6 seconds.
>> I’m sure there are more. I sent it to you with hopes you’d be
>> able to post it on IM.
I have uploaded exactly what you sent me ( byte for byte ) to YouTube and set it as a PUBLIC video.
The direct link to the video is…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1GjZm7dsaw
I also added a full copy of the SAFENET that has already been filed with regards to this ‘entrapment’ to the ‘description’ of the video… just in case that original SAFENET report suddenly ‘disappears’ from the SAFENET database.
Here is the ‘About’ text for this PUBLIC YouTube video…
————————————————————————
* BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION ENTRAPMENT
This video was shot on July 23, 2016 by one of the firefighters who was involved in the ‘entrapment’ which took place at the ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ in the Angeles National Forest, during the SAND FIRE of July-August 2016.
The firefighter was ‘sheltering in place’ during the entrapment at the only building at that ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’ which was NOT destroyed during the burnover at that location.
The video is only 6 seconds in length, but it shows the fire as it was burning down the other structures at that ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’.
Here is the actual SAFENET report filed regarding this ‘entrapment’ at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station on July 23, 2016…
( snip )
A full copy of the SAFENET filed for this ‘entrapment’ incident
( /snip )
—————————————————————-
NOTE: I can still find NO evidence that ANY kind of ‘investigation’ is taking place with regards to this near-fatal entrapment on the ‘Sand Fire’.
Those firefighters are LUCKY to be ALIVE… and the entire incident NEEDS to be INVESTIGATED so that the “Lessons to Learn” can be also then become common knowledge.
WTKTT,
Thank you for researching and re-configuring and posting the 6-second video onto YouTube.
There is more out there I’m sure.
That is correct, there is NO evidence that ANY kind of ‘investigation’ is taking place with regards to this near-fatal entrapment on the ‘Sand Fire’.
We shall see, time will tell. There were numerous Federal, State, and Municipal Agencies involved and I hope that the SBFD steps up and does one, since it was their FF’s that were involved.
Get in touch with the SBFD Public DIS-information Officers and see what they have.
You don’t think the federal agency that had their buildings nuked on their own land should do an investigation into the circumstances that caused it, but the city or county should instead since it was their folks involved in riding out the fire?
Woodsman,
I’m thinking it’s going to be the USFS and LA County doing the bulk of the Investigation with maybe the SBFD as well because of their FF’s being involved.
Makes sense. I would think the FS would be seriously inclined to figure out what the hell happened, primarily for firefighter safety & secondarily because buildings are freaking expensive.
Try to keep the dumbasses from killing themselves out there.
Even if El Cariso had the shelters there was no time to use them they wee in a steep chimney
which funneled the heat and flames right at them they could not have deployed if they wanted to they had seconds on steep terrain above the fire which went up the Chimney in seconds.
After that it was Mandatory in California to Carrie Shelters though they would have done no good in that situation.
The USFS R5 decided if it was issued safety Equipment you carried it.
Reply to Bob Powers post on August 21, 2016 at 7:13 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> They wee in a steep chimney which funneled the heat and
>> flames right at them
Yes… they were… and so was ‘Granite Mountain’.
Looks like ‘Granite Mountain’ never got the ‘memos’ about ‘walking through fuel-choked chimneys within 1/2 mile of a dynamic wind-driven wildfire’ and what a STUPID ‘choice’ that always is.
Even former Yarnell Fire Chief Peter Andersen said, after the tragedy that to make such a choice was… “You might as well be standing in a fireplace with the flue open.”
The Phoenix New Times
Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation Ignored Major Mistakes by the State
Published: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 at 12 p.m.- By John Dougherty
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state-6667860
—————————————————————
Like tens of thousands of people who’ve closely examined the circumstances leading up to the hotshots’ deaths, Anderson doesn’t understand why the crew was in the box canyon in the first place, much less at a time of day when wildfires typically display their greatest intensity and when thunderstorm warnings had been issued.
“Anybody who has ever taken a wild-lands class is warned about box canyons,” Andersen says. “You might as well be standing in a fireplace with the flue open.”
The question of why the men were there haunts Andersen. And, he says, the lack of substantive conclusions in a report issued September 28 after a state-commissioned investigation into their deaths has left him unsatisfied.
“I think it’s a big cover-up, a big snow job,” he says.
—————————————————————
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> After that it was Mandatory in California to Carrie Shelters
Mandatory… for WHO? Hotshots only? Plenty of photos around of these ‘hybrid’ California structure/wildland firefighters NOT carrying any shelters at all, even to this day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The USFS R5 decided if it was issued safety Equipment you carried it.
So… only applies to USFS people?
Look at the following photograph taken just recently ( on July 23, 2016 ), of LA County ‘Firefighters’ trying to fight the ‘Sand Fire’.
This guy is at the end of a hose lay trying to attack a fireline that is suddenly ‘flaring up’ and threatening his life…
…and he has absolutely NO ‘pack’ or ‘fire shelter’…
http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-deadly-sand-fire-destroys-18-homes-burns-22000-acres/#25
Photo Caption: Santa Clarita, California. An LA County firefighter finds himself in a tad bit of trouble as flames from the Sand Fire get too close. This was a spot fire that he tried to get to but they had to pull out. This is along Placerita Canyon Road. ( Photo by Mike Meadows ).
Followup…
The photo of the FF standing knee-deep in grass with NO FIRE SHELTER and trying to fight the recent ‘Sand Fire’ at the link above comes up as the SECOND photo on that page. You have to scroll down a bit past the top photo of the Helicopter to see it.
And here is that same California FF just moments later… ( still with NO SHELTER ) desperately trying to get his hose back to his little truck and get the fuck OUT of where he was…
http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-deadly-sand-fire-destroys-18-homes-burns-22000-acres/#33
Photo Caption: Santa Clarita, California. An LA County FD patrol truck finds itself in a very warm position as they tried to come in and put out a spot fire along Placerita Canyon Road. The fire got bigger than they anticipated. They did get out. ( Photo by Mike Meadows )
For that second photo above… same deal… you have to scroll DOWN under the photo of the Helicopter to see it. It’s the SECOND photo on that page.
Logo on the FF’s little truck in the photo above is…
LA County Fire Department
And notice the TREE in that second photo above, right next to that “Los Angeles County Fire Department” vehicle as that FF ( with NO Fire Shelter ) is trying to get himself and his little truck the fuck OUT of there.
The TREE shows that the WIND was blowing TOWARDS this guy… who had NO FIRE SHELTER.
The photographer himself says this FF ‘made it out’.
Looks like it was a pretty close call, though.
To Make Myself Clear.
In the 19 60s The Forest Service Spoke only for its self.
The Regions were allowed to set their own additional Safety Requirements. R5 was a region that required the carrying of shelters on all fires for ALL R5 Fire fighters and if any one came to R5 they were required to carry Fire shelters on Fires.
Many Regions as Gary has said took severial years to have the Mandatory requirement. as well as BLM and the Park Service.
At that time the State and Many Counties adopted the same thing in California. Buy 1967/68 it was fully implemented.
in CALIFORNIA—–
There was no ICS until the 1980s and then it exploded.
As for Engines and crews they have to put on and take off their gear every time they get in and out of the Engine.
The gear is to balky to sit in a seat. Not sure what your LACO guy was doing would assume the Gear was in the Cab.
My gear was always in the front seat with me in my small Engine Patrol Truck 125 Gal. Unit.
The new Packs the carry today are full of stuff and they are put on when they reach the Fire these packs carry the Shelter.
Us old guys back when had them attached to our canteen belt.
we had the old army type belts with the shoulder straps the shelter set in between the Canteens on the back of the belt on mine. some strapped them on above the belt. it was easer to have every thing attached to your belt back then and most regulars did. By the late 60s we had vests that had a back carry pack that was also adopted by most FFs and crews.
I will say I really like the new Packs wish I had one way back then. We NEVER CARRIED 40 LBS back then.
Does anyone on here know if CalFire or LA County Fire has a policy where the FF must wear a shelter??
That is the question..
Yes LA County and Cal Fire do
The Structure crews do not they are the ones wearing the Turn Outs, Running Hose not WLFF.
No gear of any kind under turn out coat.
There is a difference between the two with in the Urban Interface.
**
** SOBERANES ( BIG SUR ) DOZER OPERATOR FATALITY REPORT
The ‘Cal Fire’ ‘green sheet’ ( preliminary ) report on the death of contract bulldozer operator Robert Reagan has been published.
It’s fairly complete ( with photos ) and it’s pretty clear what happened.
A combination of ‘bad circumstances’ ( an Engine blocking his path on a road ) and ‘bad decison making’ ( how to get around that Engine in the DARK ).
Mr. Reagan was trying to reach a work assignment while traveling on a narrow dirt road ( in the dark ), but there was an Engine blocking that ‘lower’ road he was on. He took another ‘higher’ road that branched off and ran ‘above’ the ‘lower’ road… and as soon as he passed the engine he tried to return to the ‘lower’ road in a place that had an 81 percent slope.
The dozer he was driving actually had a fully-enclosed CAB… with both ‘rollover’ protection bars and additional rollover ‘sweeps’ installed on the sides… but as the dozer rolled over… Mr. Reagan was ‘ejected’ out the left side for ( apparently ) two reasons…
1. He wasn’t wearing his seatbelt.
2. The LEFT door of the enclosed cab had been left OPEN.
The dozer actually ‘contacted’ the back of the ‘Engine’ he was trying to get around on that ‘lower’ road as it rolled over and as Mr. Reagan was ‘ejected’.
The report says that it had been DISCUSSED how Mr. Reagan was supposed to ‘get around’ that Engine that night and that he was SUPPOSED to have traveled farther on the ‘upper’ road to a place where he could have tried to return to the ‘lower’ road on only about a 42 percent grade… but Mr. Reagan apparently decided ( on his own ) to try to return to the ‘lower’ road ( in the dark ) on an 81 percent grade as soon as he thought he was ‘clear’ of the back of the Engine blocking the lower road.
There are charts, diagrams ( and photos ) that show pretty clearly what happened.
WARNING: The ‘Article’ and the ‘Cal Fire’ report displayed at the following link contains at least FOUR photographs of the actual ‘accident scene’ photographed the next day in the ‘daylight’… including the actual overturned dozer still in the same position it was when Mr. Regan was crushed under it. Mr. Reagan’s BODY had already been REMOVED from underneath the dozer the previous night and BEFORE these photos were taken… but some people might consider these photos ‘disturbing’ to see, anyway. You have been WARNED.
The article below also goes into more detail about the COMPANY that Mr. Reagan had been working for having its license suspended 8 times in just 4 years.
KQED – The California Report
Article Title: Cal Fire Probe Details Death of Dozer Driver in Big Sur Blaze
Published: August 5, 2016 – By Ted Goldberg
https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2016/08/05/soberanes-fire-bulldozer-operator-killed/
From that article…
—————————————————————————————
A preliminary report from Cal Fire investigators says that a bulldozer driver killed while working on the massive fire near Big Sur was ejected from his machine as it tipped over on a steep embankment, possibly because he wasn’t wearing a seat belt.
The Cal Fire “green sheet” says the operator — earlier identified as Robert Reagan, 35, of the Fresno County town of Friant — died nearly instantly after being pinned to the ground as the bulldozer turned over.
The report on the incident, which Cal Fire emphasizes is still under investigation, says Reagan may not have been wearing the bulldozer’s lap-style seat belt and that it’s likely the left door of the machine’s cab was open.
Reagan, who was working for Madera County-based Czirban Concrete Construction, a Cal Fire contractor, had been assigned to bulldoze a fire line on the northwestern edge of the Soberanes Fire. The area where Reagan was working is characterized by steep ridges, deep canyons and is accessible only by a network of narrow dirt roads.
After being briefed by another dozer operator and conferring with firefighters, he began maneuvering his machine toward the proposed line shortly before 11 p.m. on July 26.
Reagan’s path was blocked by a fire engine parked on a dirt road, so he guided his dozer onto a roadway that ran parallel to and above the first one. His new path required him to drive down a steep embankment to get back to the lower road and reach his assignment. Although he had identified a spot he felt would be safe, the report said, he instead steered his machine onto the lip of an 81 percent slope and started down.
A firefighter stationed at the engine on the lower road told investigators he saw Reagan’s dozer slide down the slope. The bulldozer’s blade struck the edge of the embankment, he said, causing the machine to roll onto its left side. The dozer eventually came into contact with the fire engine’s rear bumper.
Reagan “was ejected from the cab and was pinned beneath the left sweep,” the report states. Sweeps are sets of heavy bars meant to protect the operator’s cab.
A paramedic who was nearby at the time pronounced Reagan dead.
—————————————————————————————
A copy of the ACTUAL ‘Cal Fire’ report is viewable ( with photos ) at the BOTTOM of the article above… but the following is also a ‘direct’ link to the ‘Cal Fire’ report itself ( with charts, diagrams and photos ) as uploaded to the SCRIBD Online PDF Document Service…
https://www.scribd.com/document/320307394/Cal-Fire-Report-on-Soberanes-Fire-Fatality#download&from_embed
Followup…
Here is another photo of the ‘accident’ scene which was NOT included in the article above OR in the actual ‘Cal Fire’ preliminary report.
It was taken AFTER Mr. Robert Reagan’s dozer itself was REMOVED from the accident scene… and a makeshift ‘memorial cross’ was placed at the spot where his body was found ( under the dozer ).
Same WARNING as above applies.
SOME people might find this photo ‘disturbing’. You have been warned.
The ‘wooden cross’ has the name ‘Robert Reagan III’ on it, and the photo was taken by someone standing on the ‘lower’ road which had the ‘Engine’ blocking it that night… and looking back up the 81 percent grade ’embankment’ and up towards the ‘higher road’ that Mr. Reagan had been on trying to get AROUND that ‘Engine’ blocking his way.
Notice just to the LEFT of the cross you can still see where the BLADE of Mr. Reagan’s dozer ‘dug in’ to the embankment as it was ‘rolling over’.
The photo is the 6th one down from the top on the following article that contains several photos from the ‘Soberanes’ fire…
http://www.firstpost.com/printpage.php?idno=2928382&sr_no=0
The CAPTION on the photo reads…
———————————————————————————
A cross is seen at the site where bulldozer operator Robert Reagan of Fresno County was killed in a rollover on 26 July, while fighting the Soberanes Fire. His sister Hannah Cunnings said that Reagan was the kind of person who would offer to put snow chains on your car or fix an engine that needed fixing. “Even since he was a boy he just really wanted to help people,” she said, crying. The Monterey County Sheriff’s Office said Reagan is survived by a common-law wife and two young daughters. Cunnings said her brother and his wife also cared for a young niece. Reuters
———————————————————————————
A DIRECT link to just the photo itself is as follows…
http://s1.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/3_California-fire.jpg
Yarnell hill fire-these details trouble me:
1. Brendan states in his book,My lost brothers, that voices from hotshots during mayday calls is Eric marsh yet others attribute the voice to Jesse steed or others.
2. Near or at time of deployment marsh is heard to say “that is right where we need it” ( referring to retardant drop).
Who was he communicating with at that time?
3. Apparently analog watches that granite mountain was wearing could determine time of death–where are they?
4. From radio transmissions to appears that Eric marsh could have lived at least 10 minutes after the burn over. Is this fact part of a cover up that men could have lived 10 minutes or more instead of much shorter time?
This dozer story reminds me when Dad and I were coming back from his copper mine near Duncan, AZ and on our way home to his BiG Chief Mine west of Lordsburg, we ran into a number of cars parked and people waving us to stop. A station wagon had stopped, run out of gas and in the back seat was a man who had gotten out of his D8 and somehow wound up under the tracks of it so that it ran over him just below his butt. Both legs were crushed and a boot was there on his matress with the leg bone sticking straight up out of it. No one wanted to haul him in he was such a mess, but Dad and I helped the drivers load him into the back seat of Dad’s 53 caddy and rushed him on into Lordsburg to the hospital.
I saw that man a few years later with no legs and rubber pads selling pencils on the main sidewalk of Lordsburg. I was surprised he had lived–dozers are dangerous.
Reply to Charlie post on August 22, 2016 at 1:11 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> dozers are dangerous.
Yes, they are.
Especially when you don’t wear the provided seat belt(s), and you leave the doors unlatched, and then you try to navigate down an 81 percent slope in the DARK because you are in some kind of hurry ( or someone has TOLD you to be in a hurry ) to get where the people paying you want you to start working.
Just in case it wasn’t obvious from the report above…
A 90 percent slope value would be ( you guessed it ) “The Cliffs of Dover”.
A 90 percent slope is STRAIGHT DOWN ( Vertical direction ).
So an 81 percent slope ( which is what this dozer operator was trying to drive down in the DARK ) is just ‘9 percent less than STRAIGHT VERTICAL’.
He was ( supposedly ) told to travel farther on the ‘upper road’ before trying to drive back down to the ‘lower road’… and reach a place that was still steep ( and still dangerous in the dark ) with only about a 43 percent ‘slope’ back down to the ‘lower road’… but either he misunderstood those instructions OR ( perhaps ) thought he HAD reached the point where he was told to drive back down to the lower road… but could not SEE the slope he was attempting at that point because of the DARK.
It’s all very sad… and it should NOT have happened.
100% slope is 45 degrees not vertical. Think of rise over run. 1 foot horizontal to 1 foot vertical equals 100% slope. 1:1. 80% is steep. That’s why there are foot pads on the dash of the dozers. No seatbelt & running the machine with the door(s) open is a no-no.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on August 23, 2016 at 3:44 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> 100% slope is 45 degrees not vertical.
>> Think of rise over run. 1 foot horizontal to 1 foot
>> vertical equals 100% slope. 1:1.
You are absolutely right. Thank you. I stand corrected.
I really did just think that a ‘slope’ which represents a 45 degree angle would also then be considered a 45 degree ‘slope’.
As you point out… not so much.
According to the ‘rise vs. run’ approach… therIn the ‘Ce actually is NO possible way to represent ‘absolute vertical’ with this kind of ‘slope degree’ approach.
If the ‘run’ is 0 ( no run distance, absolute vertical ) then you can’t even calculate a ‘slope’ value because no matter what the ‘rise’ might be… the result of dividing the ‘rise’ by the ‘run’ ( zer0 ) will always be ZERO.
In the ‘Cliffs of Dover’ example ( or for any near-vertical )… if you had a 1,000 foot ‘rise’ versus only ( say ) a 1 foot ‘run’ down there at the bottom ( not full vertical but close )… the ‘slope percent’ in that case would actually be a whopping 100,000 percent!
So yea… once you get past a ’45 degree angle’… the ‘rise vs. run’ approach starts to get WAY over 100 percent the close you get to vertical.
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> 80% is steep. That’s why there are foot pads on the dash
>> of the dozers. No seatbelt & running the machine with
>> the door(s) open is a no-no.
It remains incredibly sad that this happened.
If there WAS that ‘upper road’ and that ‘intersection’ right there… then why the hell didn’t the ‘Engine’ park up that slope and leave the main ( lower ) road CLEAR so other vehicles could get where they needed to go?
Somehow… this feels a lot like those other fatalities where an Engine was forced to try and ‘miss’ a bunch of firefighters just STANDING there on the inside curve of a very narrow dirt road… and in the attempt to drive AROUND the firefighters who were just STANDING there on the side of the raod… then Engine slipped off the road and fell about 1,000 feet.
The firefighters blocking the road should have just MOVED instead of forcing the Engine to try and ‘hug the edge’ of that dangerous curve.
If that Engine had not been blocking that lower road… ( or had moved out of the way when necessary ) it’s highly likely Mr. Reagan would still be with us.
A 45 degree angle IS a 45 degree slope. It’s also a 100 PERCENT slope. It’s common for people to confuse degree with percent. Slope is usually referred to in percent. I just didn’t want you or anyone else to misunderstand how steep the incline Mr. Reagan (R.I.P.) attempted to descend which led to his tragic death was.
I agree that the engine apparently blocking the way affected the outcome. I wish events and decisions were different as they could have been & should have been. That’s a little of my hindsight bias speaking, admittedly.
Woodsman
I am moving this to the top because it is important and I don’t want it to get lost in the weeds. We, led by the NWCG, are collectively training our young firefighters to die by telling them those damn WF death shrouds will save them.
I also owe an apology to the Prescott Fire Department but I’m not going to give them one. I started out on the blog three years ago blaming THEM for the death of the crew, but I have EVOLVED (Silence of the Lambs – Part 2). The PFD are just from floating cancer cells in the bloodstream, the malignant tumor mass in this scenario is the NWCG who represent everything wrong with ICS..
rocksteady says
AUGUST 17, 2016 AT 7:31 AM
GAry, I was not recommending deploying a shelter in a non survivable area, I was simply drawing a line of thought processes, where the original comment was “Lyon ran out of the fire”. I assumed other, non WFF types on this site may have jumped to the conclusion that if GMIHS had done same that they would have survived.
I was trying to head the theory off at the pass… Due to the extreme heat and incredible rates of spread, there would have been ZERO chance of the GMIHS personnel outrunning the Yarnell Hill Fire…
I tried to do that by stating that the Twisp fire was a different fuel type and fire behaviour, basically telling people that even if that was a standard order, to drop packs and run, rather than deploying, it would not have helped in the Yarnell scenario.
Guess I did not articulate it well enough…
I was using the online Canadian-American dictionary and guess something got missed in the translation ?
Reply
Gary Olson says
AUGUST 17, 2016 AT 9:17 AM
My sincerest apologies, I sure am glad all of you Canadians are so darn nice, ya, you becha…you know.
I do have my radar up all of the time because I got so much push back when I and others championed this argument way back when. I really do feel strongly that we (and no…I don’t have a mouse in my pocket, I mean “we” as in everybody) led by the NWCG are collectively training our young WF to die through brainwashing to overly depend on those damn death shrouds to save them.
This over dependence leads to unacceptable reckless behavior the same way some people drive faster and take more chances because they have both seat belts and air bags.
There is a whole chapter on this topic swirling around inside my head. But in the meantime, I do apologize to you…our northern friend.
FYI…I came very close to being a Canuck myself…my mother and father seriously looked at staying in Canada on their way to the Land of the Midnight Sun, while they were living in construction camps and my father was working on the Alcan Highway, but they kept going north so I was born in the U.S. Territory of Alaska.
I love to say that I was born in a U.S. territory. No one can ever guess where I was born when I say I was born in one, all they can come up with is Guam.
Wait, I didn’t read this right.
“I was trying to head the theory off at the pass… Due to the extreme heat and incredible rates of spread, there would have been ZERO chance of the GMIHS personnel outrunning the Yarnell Hill Fire…”
OK…let’s get together some time at the actual deployment site, (and don”t want anyone to start bitchin’ at me for this analogy, it is the best I can come up with, if you can come up with a better one, I will use it) I will have an M-4 (with which I am very proficient in the use of and a deadly shot) and I will give you two choices.
I. I will shoot you in the head multiple times right where we stand.
or
2. I will give you a X minutes (and I would like WTKTT to fill in the X based on all of his calculations up to this point) head start to run…and then I will start shooting at you. I will probably still hit you and you will just die tired, but at least you will be on your feet running away from the threat.
And I will bet you anything you want to bet…that you will RUN as fast and as far as your legs will carry you can.
So please…everyone…shut the fuck up and quit telling our WF they shouldn’t even try to live by running no matter how small the chances are they will survive.
In the case of granite mountain and what their chances would have been had they run—due to radio transmissions from AA to marsh shortly before and at time of deployment (“we are going to bring you the VLAT etc but need to know where you are) isn’t it possible that the hotshots were positioning themselves for assistance from AA and possibly thought being under the shelters was their best option until AA arrived?
There were reports that Eric marsh was attempting radio transmissions about 10 minutes after the burn over. Could he have been trying to give AA details on their location in the hopes of saving his crew?
You make a good analogy….
But look at the video of Willis “commending” the crew for staying all together in the deployment site, that no one broke ranks and ran for it, “they died as a cohesive unit”…
Is that an unwritten rule in the US where the crew HAS to stay and die together?? I doubt it, probably just the militaristic mindset of Hotshot crews… But I could be wrong…
The over dependence/false sense of security, as well as the astounding costs of the next generation shelters were all part of the reason that all of Canada, not just one Province squished the policy of having/training/packing and using the darn things…
I haven’t been able to reach a conclusion as to why the entire crew laid down and died together, but here are some of my thoughts and the militaristic mindset of hotshot crews as you put it could be one of them.
1. They were really that cohesive of a crew which would not be uncommon for a hotshot crew.
2. They truly believed in Jesse Steed that much to lay down and die with him because he said that is what they should do.
3. They were aware fire shelters had recently been used successfully on a fire they were on in similar conditions and fuels, I think it was the Holloway Fire.
4. They were a relatively inexperienced crew although that does not account for the actions of Steed and a few others who were experienced.
But my leading theory is that they were just that brainwashed by the system. Unless you have been through the indoctrination process that they put WF firefighters through, you have no idea of how pervasive and strong it really is. Which is why I am afraid there are more Granite Mountain crews out there waiting to die and why I am pushing so hard on this topic.
I don’t believe there is any place in any of the fire shelter training that the concept of “how big is big enough” is even mentioned much less taught. And if there could be just one thing come out of this disaster…I think it should be that.
Teach wildland firefighters about the LIMITATIONS of those death shrouds. This is why I think ultimately the NWCG is responsible for the deaths of the crew and I would have based all lawsuits on that fact…after I went over their deeply flawed training with a fine tooth comb and proved they were never taught to even think about that factor.
There is no other explanation I can think of why 19 mature men would lay down and willing be burned alive in an area about the size of a three car garage when they needed 16.5 acres to escape after using their fire shelters without serious injuries.
Now…we can argue for the rest of time exactly how much less space they could have gotten away with and at least survived. If they would have tried deploying those things inside a ONE acre space I would have understood, but will never understand doing so in a 20′ by 30′ space…never.
Or maybe the men as a group really were spent and they were so close to ranch that they thought help was coming…if not by air attack…by the dozer driver who has still not yet been properly interviewed
What role could the sizer driver have had in helping granite mountain?
Reply to rocksteady post on August 17, 2016 at 11:29 am
>> rocksteady said…
>>
>> But look at the video of Willis “commending” the crew for
>> staying all together in the deployment site, that no one
>> broke ranks and ran for it, “they died as a cohesive unit”…
What Mr. ‘God, Guts and Glory’ military-wannabee and preacher-wannabee all-rolled-into-one Darrell Willis ACTUALLY said ( to the media ) was…
“…they died with honor.
As if doing anything else but laying down and comitting suicide would have been a ‘dishonorable’ thing to have done… for civil-service employees ( NOT military people ) making just a little bit more than minimum wage.
Willis’ statements ( most of them ) from the ‘deployment’ site remain in the ‘unbelievable’ category.
Willis should have NEVER been allowed to be the one doing that initial press conference following the tragedy… and the fact that he WAS even allowed to do it and to say the stupid things he ended up saying that day is just more proof that these kind of ‘culture kills’ problems are firmly ENSCONCED in this ‘civil service’ agency called “The Forestry Service”.
Here is exactly what Willis’ said to the media from the deployment site itself…
———————————————————————————-
The… the voice of what actually happened… we’ll never know.
We’re not gonna have that information from them.
But… uh… I can tell ya that they died with honor.
That… uh… they stuck together.
One of the things that… that… is… uh… very unique about this situation is 19 firefighters saw and felt the same way.
They… uh… nobody cut and run the other direction.
Nobody tried to get out of the way.
They all deployed.
They were a very cohesive team.
———————————————————————————
Here’s the original posting of the COMPLETE transcript of Willis’ ‘presentation’ to the press out at the deployment site…
On December 13, 2013 at 9:56 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth ( WTKTT ) posted…
** THE COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT OF DARRELL WILLIS’ PRESS CONFERENCE
** HELD AT THE DEPLOYMENT SITE JULY 23, 2013.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/granite-mountain-hotshots-were-asked-if-they-could-protect-yarnell/#comment-5642
I think Mr. Willis is a lying scumbag.
I am feeling rough today and so want to ccomprehend how one thinks one lies or is a scumbag…have you ever witnessed such…the man spoke hearsay in my court case but I never saw in 2013 media to that court case to attended memorial. Events to ever feel Willis lied…I also seen and interviewed non involved fire community folks in regards and they shared to ne their account which involved Willis…That day that final moment with eyewitnesses confirmation Willis was unaware when they were around him…I know people who use tiny planes so on a day like that where there is missing elements still present I am going to state until all information arrives can we please be mindful of labels…I have to state I am disappointed in certain mannerisms Willis shown since the fire but every human being has told a lie in their lifetime and I even asked nuns and priests. …I get being frustrated but names like such…I cannot comprehend yet I have been fighting a 105 fever and been rough pain so maybe I need either further education or more sleep…rest. Publicly even at worst when he had to play a role of “sides” in a court room I felt he was good…hopefully I can get what today’s topic means if a new day arrives..good night
I feel confident even as the hours oassed what I said at my low point. Yesterday we were doing get your life needs in order for Sonny and when the banker was talking I out of know where brought up a past event in his life that I could never know and I never met him before or nor do I hang out in Scottsdale banks much but Sonnys daughter was trying to kindly cover up what I just spoke and he looked at her and said she is right in what she said but noone knew about it but the guy who was there and him and I brought up racism was core to event and another she is right was said so I dont claim I am anything but me yet I read people well and with Willis I can see him have a label omission but not liar…also due to his position he may of learned what THEY needed him to know but do not bank Willis knew much…I wish Roy Hall and Musser and Abel were properly interviewed or even by me…Hall has not been properly shown for his role in the yhf not in the media or sair so you want to say anything…until the proper folks step forward labels like scumbag seem not right…back to sleep…long driving day kind of day…
I called Mr. Willis that for several reasons…
I do have some training in reading body language and there were several indicators in his first TV interview that he was definitively “making stuff up”…
Secondly, he is privy to exactly what Donut had to come clean about and get off his chest….
Since Donut has failed miserably to grow a set of cajoles and come forward, Mr. Willis should have either A. Convinced Donut to come clean, or B. Release the information to investigators.
Regarding joys suggestion of interviewing key personnel that were not interviewed following the Yarnell hill fire—-if this is feasible seems like joy could obtain some important information.
Joy are you saying that Willis may be lying by omission?
I have no clue what proper words to label it are but I think without all the missing elements and I know factually since the fire he has privvy to additional fire facts that he did not have on that final hours- and he has not spoke in a media format but there is a person if I was placed on the court stand I would share where I got alot of tedious details with either documented details or sound recordings where I am able to state such in manner I did on him private or public and on this blog…yet I will not throw any of Willis or Marsh’s folks under the bus as I stated in court unless I was subpoenaed to do so- too crony of a county—I can state this; both sides of litigation would benefit to put me on the stand…
Why do you feel that way?
what way?
on stating more information should be presented on topic of Willis before calling him names like such on this blog?
God led to me TOO MANY since the fire that is either on the fire community or on that fire or use to work for him or know him personally…I know too much on certain areas and all I can do is lead people where to dig…and you go back to page one to now and you will see I did in some fashion and if I did not…there are total of five different people who have the details behind the scenes in case I pass on…I won’t die with it like Willis stated some answers died with the men—I think if the right folks just speak public we will see not all the answers died with the men- right Mr. Morin 🙂 and R. Hall 🙂
Joy… There are several reasons that I called him that.
I do have some law enforcement training and one of those was reading body language. There are several places within his media press release that there are indications that he is lying.
Secondly, he KNOWS exactly what Donut needed to get off his chest, but has never come forward with it. He should have either recommended that Donut speak up, or he would. The families of the fallen want to know the truth, Willis has some knowledge of the missing bits 9the stuff Donut had to get off his chest), but he still, after 3 years, is not willing to tell all he knows.
Based on that, I used the scumbag word..
feel what way? Diane, I am “swungover”.
..
https://youtu.be/TOPSETBUgvQ
I can say this…I am No…Able Grable
maybe at times a chucklehead…and in the day you thought as I danced I was filled with helium…especially when I jitterbug danced…I think if one asked Willis or Paul Morin or Roy Hall anything even to this day about that fire they would say TAKE A POWDER…lay off…
You coming to IM, Diane…you are my killer diller hope that maybe more will surface…
When I think of you…I so see the whip…the push…the lindy hop…so let’s do the jive and see what can happen if you just ask…maybe something…maybe not…
No I am not drinking any jitter sauce or hot toddies…
https://youtu.be/cbaNYWkQYYA
I love you “golden generation” who introduced me at age 9 to the good ol’ days…where women were more “real” and men were well men…torso tossing; a favorite pass time…
this should be a part of physical ed in HS…the decades of dancing…hopefully whatever the heck is going on with my body will be solved in September and back to normalcy…
meantime…thank you Diane for your continued participation on this blog.
God Bless You!
http://quotesideas.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/God-BLESS-GOOD-NIGHT-quote-photo.jpg
Rocksteady said: …the original comment was “Lyon ran out of the fire”.
Yes, but the very bad, not very narrative, suggests that he didn’t try and fail to outrun the fire. The fire had overrun his truck as it lay in the drainage (or the truck went through the flaming front before it stopped), so Lyon had no choice but to run through the fire to get back to the road. He suggests that if he’d had structural FF turnouts and SCBA, he might have been fine. His boots protected his feet, and his eyes and eyebrows were saved by his sunglasses, and his helmet protected his head until he lost it (his helmet, not his head).
It’s possible that if he had been able to keep the shelter with him, it might have helped protect him, but those things are so flimsy, the effort may have slowed down his escape, so it would be a wash. As you know, I don’t think the engine should have been there at all, and if carrying a shelter contributed to his being there, I am happy to forbid them on the fire line.
I don’t think the fire shelter was ever a factor in the Twisp fire one way or the other. I also doubt that Lyons ever had one with him since I don’t think he would have had it on inside the engine and then in the chaos of the crash, he probably couldn’t locate it or even think about trying to find it.
I don’t think people who work on engines ever give much thought to their fire shelters since they always assume they will just drive away in their engine if things get back. Engine crewmen are rarely more than the length of a hose lay away from a way to escape the fire, although there have been significant exceptions such as on the Esperanza Fire.
Reply to Gary Olson post on August 17, 2016 at 1:05 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I don’t think the fire shelter was ever a factor in the Twisp
>> fire one way or the other.
Not for ‘Engine 642’.
There is not one piece of evidence which suggests that either Daniel Lyons ( who ran up the embankment ) or the other 3 firefighters ( who burned to death inside the Engine itself ) were even WEARING their ‘packs’ when they were inside the Engine.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> I also doubt that Lyons ever had one with him since I don’t
>> think he would have had it on inside the engine.
See above. This is a GOOD POINT.
There is NO EVIDENCE that ANY of those men were still actually WEARING their packs while they were in the Engine.
And certainly not the DRIVER, right?
I mean.. how would actually DRIVE one of these things if you WERE still wearing a full field-pack-with-shelter.
I don’t think the seat even goes back FAR enough for that to be accomplished.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> and then in the chaos of the crash, he probably couldn’t locate
>> it or even think about trying to find it.
There actually isn’t much evidence that Daniel Lyon has ever really been fully ‘interviewed’ about what happened that day… by ANYONE.
It’s perfectly possible he doesn’t remember a thing about what happened.
His last ‘clear’ recollection might be just riding in the engine… and then he has said he remembers some details about his ‘evac’… but there has never been anything published which says he recalls any ‘details’ about the crash itself, or his decision making process at that point.
Engine 642 did not ‘crash’ all that hard. It never ‘flipped’ over or anything like that. It just left the road and ran down the embankment in an already-in-flames area.
So when the Engine came to REST… it can be assumed that ALL FOUR of those FFs were still conscious… and beyond and the “Holy shits” that might have been spoken it’s also reasonable to assume there was some conversation about “what do we do now? do we get out or stay IN here?”.
How much TIME elapsed, after Engine 642 ‘came to rest’ before Daniel Lyon ( sitting in the left rear seat, behind the driver ) pushed that back left passenger door open ( and just LEFT it open, according to the reports ) and charged UP the embankment?
How much ‘conversation’ was there INSIDE the engine before he did that?
Maybe Daniel doesn’t remember… but maybe he DOES and no one has ever bothered to even ASK him that question.
Apparently… regardless of any conversation… Daniel Lyon made his own decision(s).
He decided to at least TRY and ‘stay alive’… no matter what.
And he succeeded.
It still remains a question whether the OTHERS would have also ‘survived’ if they had made the same decision(s) Daniel Lyon did.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> I don’t think people who work on engines ever give much
>> thought to their fire shelters since they always assume
>> they will just drive away in their engine if things get back.
>> Engine crewmen are rarely more than the length of a
>> hose lay away from a way to escape the fire, although
>> there have been significant exceptions such as on the
>> Esperanza Fire.
There is still a LOT we don’t know about what happened that day at the Twisp Fire.
There were ( at least ) FOUR ‘Engines’ up there in that residential neighborhood, ABOVE that uncontained Wildfire, when the shit hit the fan.
THREE of them were able to make it DOWN Woods Canyon Road ( AFTER Engine 642 had failed to do so ).
NONE of those Engines should have been up there at all… but there are still a lot of ‘details’ missing regarding this tragedy.
Reports ‘suggest’ that a ‘tire popped’… but there is still nothing with regards to maintenance records for that converted pickup truck with a flatbed and a water tank added called ‘Engine 642’.
How OLD were the tires?
Was Richard Wheeler ( the one who was driving Engine 642 that day ) even ‘qualified’ to be driving it at all?
Gary said: “I love to say that I was born in a U.S. territory. No one can ever guess where I was born when I say I was born in one, all they can come up with is Guam.”
Hmm, from the looks of you, I would have guessed Arizona Territory…
Now that…is a good one!
And speaking (OK…writing) of my video snipet, I hope Otis will not mind me sharing part of the email he sent to me.
Otis said, “Gary, in your latest dune video – you were the Dude, El Duderino, absolutely nailed it. Better than Jeff Bridges. I did have you pegged as Walter when I first started reading your posts (sometimes I expected you to talk about your hotshot buddies the way Walter talked about ‘nam), but the Dude suits you better.”
https://youtu.be/hsYWuKR49Fk
And I say – Otis was correct in assuming I would be far more like Walter Sobchak than the the Dude, especially 3 years ago when this blog first started.
But I have been working hard at changing and becoming more like “His Dudeness … Duder … or El Duderino, if, you know, you’re not into the whole brevity thing” because well…Mr. Sobchak IS wrapped a little to tight.
And so was I for most of my career, so I am EVOLVING (.”is this a…What day is this?”) Which is why I was SO excited when I saw the first part of that video…I think I am making some real progress and I am very happy Otis sees it as well.
There just isn’t much I really care about any more…but FYI, I do still care about what happened to our crew on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
In the meantime, just as Bob did…I must bid you adieu because the shifting sands in the dunes are once again whispering my name…and I must go. Ciao!
NOTE: Bringing this comment up from down below because… well…
because it deserves to be its own ‘parent’ comment and not get ‘lost in the weeds’…
On August 16, 2016 at 7:52 am, rocksteady said…
Us Canuckians to the North DO NOT PACK shelters…..
Therefore, we do not need to run from fires, as we practice situational awareness and avoidance of potential fire entrapment situations.
When you feel vulnerable to start with, NO “Ultimate Survival Shelter” on your hip, you learn where not to be when fires get snappy…
In the world of climate change, the way to fight wildfires is to “BACK OFF AND BURN OFF”….
That is my own personal mantra… I would not say its copyrighted, but pretty close.
Safety is number 1 in Canada…
It is blatantly explained to the general public that the WFF WILL NOT go into situations to protect structures, that what fire departments do…. We will not risk the lives of our unprotected workers (NOMEX, not SCBA) to save your possessions and structures… Hope you got insurance…. And none of us are willing to die to save some crappy frigging trees….
Its actually a pretty easy system to follow…
Rocksteady said…
————————————————————–
Safety is number 1 in Canada…
It is blatantly explained to the general public that the WFF WILL NOT go into situations to protect structures, that what fire departments do…. We will not risk the lives of our unprotected workers (NOMEX, not SCBA) to save your possessions and structures.
—————————————————————
And just a few months ago… the head grand-poobah-mucky-muck of THIS country’s WILDLAND Firefighting Industry ‘blatantly’ said the EXACT OPPOSITE…
Article Title: Forest Service Chief vows to protect COMMUNITIES “no matter what”
Published: April 28, 2016
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/04/28/forest-service-chief-vows-to-protect-communities-no-matter-what-the-budget/
—————————————————————-
Tom Tidwell, Chief of the U.S. Forest Service, discussed the 2016 wildfire season in two venues recently. Earlier this month he testified before the Senate Appropriations Committee, and on Wednesday he talked with the Associated Press while he was in Denver for a conference about forest health.
Tidwell said ( when he was testifying to the Senate Appropriations Committee )…
“…we will CONTINUE to carry out our responsibilities on the ground to be able to PROTECT THE COMMUNITIES… no matter what the budget.”
—————————————————————-
How did Gary Olson put it?
“Acceptable Losses”?
But ‘Ssssssssshhhhhhhhh’.!. don’t tell the ‘kids’ signing on for this part-time work there is any such thing and that we are EXPECTING such ‘losses’ to ‘fulfill the mission’.
We need to keep the “butts in the seats”.
Protecting Communities is not fighting House Fires.
Burn outs and fuel breaks ahead of the Fire is Protecting communities.
Example The Pioneer Fire Idaho last week the FS Boise NF.
24 Hours ahead of the Fire did two back burns/Burnouts in stages to Protect the Town of Lowman Idaho. It worked and the town was totally saved. That is what can be done when there is time.
In California the Fire north of Sacramento there was no time to do that the fire went right into town, City County and State Fire departments attacked where they could and put out house fires where they could. That’s the other end of ICS where different departments Carrie out their individual responsibilities.
There are no acceptable losses in wild land fire. There are no Federal Directives mandating such management or suppression tactics.
GONE FISHING AND HORSE RIDDING SEE YA NEXT WEEK.
Agreed Bob….
Depends on how the “protection of communities is defined by the organization”..
I also forgot to add that in Canada, to the best of my knowledge, we do not have hybrid structural/wildland crews…
The man arrested for starting the Clayton Fire was an inmate FF.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Great-Guy-Damin-Pashilk-Suspected-Arsonist-Arrested-for-Starting-Clayton-Fire-Cal-Fire-390341221.html
I have a question-
Damin Anthony Pashilk.
where is he at right now- I have some surgeries due but I want to interview him personally- if not him- his wife Jennie. I am serious. Who is his attorney? If his attorney gets hash tagged to this comment; I have never been more serious in my entire life; call me. (480) 280-5813. I never would ever visit a person in the system aka prison but I have to see his take on this for myself- I have to be point blank blunt and that I am not on board to believe what is being fed in the media just because it was written or reported– I want to hear his take on it- and has YCSO picked up their phone and got involved and tried to interview this man for their investigation of Tenderfoot fire?
Wow.
Shaking my head.
recent wildfire victims- be mindful on your anger on this fella and the current vent- until further details surface and you get to HEAR this fella…his side…
and I hope those “missing elements” see this latest report…
“shaking my head”
if anyone has this guy’s lawyers name- I want to meet in person with him.
Reply to Muzzy post on August 16, 2016 at 5:47 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> The man arrested for starting the Clayton Fire was an inmate FF.
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Great-Guy-Damin-Pashilk-Suspected-Arsonist-Arrested-for-Starting-Clayton-Fire-Cal-Fire-390341221.html
Thanks for the ‘heads up’.
It’s a little suspicious that while they were so EAGER to ‘announce’ they had ‘caught him’ ( to the cheers and applause of a gathered crowd )… they ( the authorities ) are also REFUSING to even say what makes them even THINK he is the one responsible… or what ‘evidence’ and/or ‘testimony’ actually LED to this ‘arrest’.
I can see them withholding SOME details they might know about the fire ignitions themselves that might ‘tie’ this individual to those ‘ignitions’… ( since that is the sort ‘knowledge’ that belongs to a ‘crime scene’ and the prosecutors always want to withhold from potential suspects )… but it’s weird that they will say NOTHING about what might have LED them to this person in the first place.
Testimony from some ‘witness’ that they don’t want to disclose to the media ( yet )?
He is scheduled for arraignment today; the indictment will contain some details. He’s being held on $5MM bond. Neither the person listed as his lawyer nor the woman who answered his home phone would speak to the media. They’ve been following him for a year, so there are likely to be other fires involved.
Pretty good article about today’s ‘arraignment’…
Some details emerging… and it’s actually not looking too good for this guy.
Surveillance videos placed his vehicle at multiple ( prior ) ignitions.. then they apparently got a ‘court order’ to install some kind of secret GPS tracking device on his vehicle ( yes… this can happen folks ).
Now GPS data actually places that same vehicle at the scene ( and in the same timeframe ) as OTHER ‘ignitions’.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-alleged-arsonist-arraigned-20160817-snap-story.html
Gary your answer Federal Employees have a Union and have had one since 1969.
There is still the same NAFE Union no the can not Strike.
They can bargain.
The union in the 1970’s got us time and a half, Hazard Pay and Sunday Differential.
I was part of that Bargaining unit in California. We went national and won.
That union is still active today. Not as big or as well covered as it should be which is to bad.
Woops that’s NFFE National Federation of Federal Employees.
They are a fairly large organization in California and can insert themselves into the discussion on Safety and Fatalities on Forests where they have Active Locals.
NO…they don’t have collective bargaining rights just as I said Bob. As usual you are short on facts and long on personal opinion, which is usually wrong except when it comes to fire line issues, which you should stick to by the way because you look a lot less foolish when you only opine on things you DO know about.
Here is a quick run down on what collective bargaining rights are Bob. “A collective bargaining agreement is the ultimate goal of the collective bargaining process. Typically, the agreement establishes wages, hours, promotions, benefits, and other employment terms as well as procedures for handling disputes arising under it.”
All of that stuff is set by the U.S. Congress and signed off on by law by the President. It is called the Civil Service Protection Act and associated laws, rules and regulations.
Unless you were trying to fool everyone that by saying they can “bargain”, that have collective bargaining rights, which can only exist if the demands are backed up by the power to strike. Why don’t you check with all of the PATCO union members and ask them how that worked out for them? Oh…that’s right, you can’t. They were all FIRED by Ronald Reagan because their work demands were not met and they went on strike and the union was destroyed.
What you and your former union colleagues had and they continue to have…is “collective bitching” backed up by the threat that they will bitch some more if they demands aren’t met. They are not a union in the true sense of the word Bob, just like I said.
The organization you mentioned is an embarrassment to real unions and a disgrace to all of the men and women who had their heads busted open and were murdered by thugs hired by the rich and powerful to keep the working masses in their place.
Gee…I think I am EVOLVING…morphing into a….OMG, SOCIALIST, which is a step up from a progressive. I sure hope I don’t become the “C” word, we know THAT doesn’t work.
They can Bargain For Work Safety and Stuarts can take work issues and appeals to the Forest and Region. I said they could not strike but then you never belonged to one so I expect you Know little to nothing about Government Unions.
I sat down with 6 others and set up some Bargained rights with The Angeles NF at the SO with the Supervisor and The personnel Officer after we were awarded a Local with close to 200 members.
So getting Time and a Half and Hazard pay was a Embarrassment to who?
Or the Fair Labor Standard Act. NFFE was and is a great Government Union.
Check it out instead of going off the wall. Who do you think went to Congress and got all of that passed the Union.
Of course you were still a PUNK KID who reaped the rewards of others. Law enforcement and Fire Fighter Retirement was another hard fought Union Law that Congress Passed. You never paid for that either just took it for granite right.
HAY GARY YOU CAN KISS MY ASS
**
** JUSTIN BEEBE’S FATHER SAYS…
**
** “HE WANTED TO BE REMEMBERED FOR SAVING HOUSES”
Not a lot of new details emerging regarding the Saturday death of first-year Lolo Hotshot Justin Beebe… but his family members have been doing a bunch of ‘interviews’.
Beyond the regular “He died doing what he loved” quotes… there is this ( from Justin’s FATHER )…
NBC-5 – Westminster, Vermont
Article Title: Family of fallen firefighter speaks about his legacy
Published 7:07 PM EDT Aug 15, 2016 – By Helena Battipaglia
http://www.wptz.com/news/family-of-fallen-firefighter-speaks-about-his-legacy/41217496
From that article…
———————————————————————————–
“It was about saving houses and saving people’s lives and saving property,” Justin’s dad Sheldon Beebe said. “That’s what he wanted to be remembered for.”
———————————————————————————–
Just to be clear… the ‘Lolo Hotshots’ organization was/is a Type 1 Interagency WILDLAND firefighting organization.
It was NOT a ‘Structural Firefighting’ organization.
Yes, and from the LoLo National Forest…a U.S. Forest Service crew. The cancer called ICS has metastasized into the liver. I think it might be too late to save the patient.
Reply to Gary Olson post on August 15, 2016 at 7:46 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Yes, and from the LoLo National Forest…a U.S. Forest Service
>> crew. The cancer called ICS has metastasized into the liver.
>> I think it might be too late to save the patient.
It would seem so.
And speaking of “too late to save the patient”…
The official ( and legally required ) ’24-hour report’ regarding 26 year old Justin Beebe’s death is now ‘online’ at the ‘Wildland Lessons Learned’ Center.
It took them a fucking HOUR and a HALF to get the poor ‘injured’ ( not dead yet ) kid any real medical attention.
Justin Beebe struck by a tree at 1600 ( 4:00 PM )
Justin Beebe was ‘Injured’ and NOT killed instantly.
Justin Beebe finally reaches Helibase at 1730 ( 5:30 PM )
Justin Beebe pronounced DEAD by a local Doctor: 1746 ( 5:46 PM ).
This may turn out like the other recent tree-strike fatality where the poor kid ‘bled out’ before they got him any real medical attention.
** LESSONS LEARNED CENTER
( Actually… it might be time to RENAME this USFS gizmo to the
“Lessons NOT Learned Center” )
Strawberry Fire Tree Strike Fatality ( 2016 )
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=b8c4e15c-4c37-40c5-bbd8-41f95b6e750c
** 24 Hour Report…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=fcd0feb4-ca3d-c82d-5356-ac967599dd99&forceDialog=0
Complete contents of the 24-Hour report…
—————————————————————————–
United States Department of the Interior
NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
100 Great Basin National Park
Baker, Nevada 8931
08/14/2016
MEMORANDUM
To: Laura Joss, Pacific West Regional Director
From: Steve Mietz, Superintendent, Great Basin National Park
CC: Bill Kaage, Dan Buckley, Matt Johnson, Martha Lee, Robin Wills, Susan Stewart,
Ralph Rau, Larry Stewart, Shane Greer
Subject: 24 – Hour Preliminary Report – Strawberry Fire
THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PRELIMINARY
AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE
Location: Great Basin National Park
Date of Occurrence: August 13, 2016
Time of Occurrence: approximately 1600 hours
Local Agency Administrator: Steve Mietz
Activity: Fireline Operations
Number of Fatalities: 1
Property Damage: None
Narrative:
At approximately 1600 hours ( 4:00 PM ), a Lolo Interagency Hotshot crew member was hit by a falling tree, sustaining critical injuries.
Line EMTs and paramedics assigned to the division responded and a short haul capable helicopter was launched.
A short-haul extraction was initiated at 1730 ( 5:30 PM ) and the injured firefighter was transported to helibase.
Life Flight paramedics, in consultation with a physician in Ely, declared the firefighter deceased at 1746 ( 5:46 PM ).
A Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP) Team and Learning Review Team (LRT) has been mobilized and will receive an in-briefing and delegation of authority at 1800 hours today.
Steve Mietz
Superintendent, Great Basin National Park
—————————————————————————–
** More CRaP on the way…
Unfortunately… I mean that literally.
Despite the fact that the ‘accident’ took place on a fire that was on NPS land, and was being jointly managed by BLM, NPS… they have both ‘delegated authority’ for the fatality investigation over to the US Forestry Service.
BLM and NPS still use the “Serious Accident Investigation Protocol” for investigating fatalities… but US Forestry did away with the SAIT following Yarnell and THEY now default to using Ivan Pupulidy’s and John Phipp’s new “Coordinated Response ( Accident ) Protocol” ( CRaP ).
So if the PARENTS of Justin Beebe REALLY want to know the TRUTH about HOW and WHY they have suddenly and tragically lost their 26 year old son… someone should tell them they might as well just go ahead and hire their own ‘private detectives’ right now and let them start their OWN ‘investigation’ right away.
I don’t think that you can blame the father for his comments….
As it was the kids first year as a hotshot, maybe he was disillusioned as to what a hotshot really does, and passed that error onto his father..
Reply to rocksteady post on August 16, 2016 at 7:41 am
>> rocksteady said…
>>
>> I don’t think that you can blame the father for
>> his comments….
>>
>> As it was the kids first year as a hotshot, maybe
>> he was disillusioned as to what a hotshot really
>> does, and passed that error onto his father..
And you don’t see THAT as an ‘issue’… at all?
That people ( young men and women ) might be ‘signing on’ for the JOB without the faintest fucking idea what the job is really SUPPOSED to be… and that it’s not meant to be simply what they WANT it to be?
Sorry… if that is the case… I ( personally ) see that as a PROBLEM that needs to be corrected.
Take the JOB if you really want to… but not because you think it’s something that it is NOT.
With regards to Justin Beebe’s father’s comment… OTHER family members are NOT saying the same thing.
OTHER family members have been quoted as saying that THEY were sure Justin Beebe just wanted to be a ‘Paramedic’ ( just like GM Hotshot Grant Mckee… who was also working his ‘first season’ with that Hotshot crew when he died on the floor of that blind box canyon, June 30, 2013 ).
So… like so many others… it seems possible that Justin Beebe did NOT “die doing what he wanted to do”… he was only DOING ‘that’ job because he thought it might GET him to what he REALLY “wanted to be doing”.
We all did that WTKTT. You gotta go thru the jobs to get to where you want to be.
I know a hundred kids the put their self’s thru Collage on HS Crews. Some were in Forestry others were not.
On the LOLO he learned right away he was not going to be saving homes. its mountains and Trees………
WTKTT…
Pull in your frigging horns… I never said it was not a problem… I said the kid may have had unrealistic visions and expectations as to what a hotshot was in his mind…
In the Condition and location of the Injured One and a Half hours to get him out was not bad. this is wilderness not down town 15 Min. response. Looks like they got an EMT to him fast but what they had to then do to get him out is a different story. I doubt there was any Med Helicopter on Scene even one that could pull him out of the Timber.
This is a Farley simple investigation and it happens more than it should.
Falling trees and Rolling Rocks are a natural Hazard. Burning tops of snags can fall in any direction can also fall while a tree is being cut.
What are you expecting in this investigation it is not a complex thing.
A falling tree and one person in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I think the how and why will be released.
Reply to Bob Powers post on August 16, 2016 at 7:50 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> In the Condition and location of the Injured One
>> and a Half hours to get him out was not bad.
Really?
Did I miss an ‘article’ appearing somewhere that actually DESCRIBES the exact ‘Conditions’ and/or the exact ‘Location’ of this latest fatality… or the exact ‘distances’ involved… or the exact readiness of any/all resources to then handle this ‘Incident within an Incident’?
If I did ( miss that article and/or report )… please provide a link.
There is still a LOT we DO NOT KNOW about exactly HOW this all went down.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Looks like they got an EMT to him fast but what they
>> had to then do to get him out is a different story.
>> I doubt there was any Med Helicopter on Scene
>> even one that could pull him out of the Timber.
Ah… okay… so I guess I didn’t ‘miss an article’.
You are right… there are many DOUBTS left here and too much that is NOT KNOWN ( yet ) to say things like “ONE AND A HALF HOURS to get him out was ‘not bad'”.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> This is a Farley simple investigation and it happens
>> more than it should.
I don’t think we know NEAR enough to say “this can/will be a simple investigation”.
1. Was the fire ‘transitioning’? I doubt they lost 90 percent of the overhead overnight like the Cedar Creek fire did just before the Navajo Hotshots almost died… but what was the actual ‘management’ status at the time THIS fatality took place?
2. Is this another case where OTHER ‘Units’ had ( perhaps ) already REFUSED a ‘mop up’ assignment in that area… and ( perhaps ) management just kept ‘asking around’ until they found a Unit stupid enough to take the assignment? ( It’s happened before… and also resulted in fatalities ).
3. What WAS the ‘assessment’ of the area? Should a ‘Faller’ team have been sent in first?… OR ( perhaps )… is that what was actually happening and that is how Justin Beebe died? His family says he worked as a LOGGER prior to doing anything with ‘Wildland Fire Fighting’. So it stands to reason Justin ‘sailed’ through the WFF chainsaw ‘quals’ and even though it was his first season as a Lolo Hotshot… he could easily have already had a FALC qualification and actually have been ON a ‘Faller’ team that was working that area when the tree struck him.
4. What were his exact injuries? Head? Torso? Limb(s)? All of that?
Was he conscious or unconsicious following the ‘strike’ itself? Was he bleeding? Badly? Could this be ANOTHER incident where the victim ‘bled out’ before he reached the help needed?
There is a LOT we don’t know and ( as with all fatality incidents )… probably a LOT of “Lessons to Learn”.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> What are you expecting in this investigation
The TRUTH. What are YOU expecting? Something else?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> it is not a complex thing.
As with any fatality incident… it could turn out to be a VERY ‘complex’ thing. Human Factors included.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> A falling tree and one person in the wrong place
>> at the wrong time. I think the how and why will be released.
If the ‘how and why’ for this incident is ‘released’ in the same way as the previous US Forestry CRaP report for the fatalities at the Twisp Fire… then you can bet money that a LOT of the ‘how and why’ will still be MISSING from this ‘upcoming’ CRaP report.
We will only get the ‘how and why’ that they want us to hear.
Followup…
Justin Beebe’s FAMILY continues to grant interviews and another article appeared just today.
THIS article now puts a SAW in Justin Beebe’s hands at the time the fatal accident took place.
It ALSO now contradicts some other preliminary information in other articles that the tree that killed him was a ‘burned snag’ in some sort of pre-burned area.
THIS article ( with statements from FAMILY members ) now says it was more of a standard “cutting fire line” assignment ( as in… NOT in a pre-burned or ‘black’ area )…
The Times / Argus NEWS – Central Vermont
Article Title: Vt. family mourns loss of their ‘Hotshot’
Published: August 16,2016
http://www.timesargus.com/article/20160816/NEWS01/160819701
——————————————————
While Beebe died from his injuries Saturday afternoon, his father, chairman of the Westminster Select Board, said he didn’t yet know the details of what happened. The U.S. Forest Service is conducting an investigation, standard in the death of a Hotshot.
Justin Beebe, experienced with a chainsaw from years of logging in Vermont, cutting firewood and pruning apple trees, was cutting down trees to create a fire lane with another firefighter, Sheldon Beebe said, as the Hotshots work in pairs, part of a 20-person crew..
Whether Justin cut the “widowmaker” that killed him, his father ( still ) didn’t know.
——————————————————
“Justin Beebe… was cutting down trees to create a fire lane with another firefighter.”
So it DOES look like that even though this was Justin Beebe’s FIRST SEASON as a Hotshot… he came right in as a ‘Sawyer’ and not just a ‘grunt’.
And the ‘other firefighter’ mentioned was probably just his ‘swamper’ at the time he was killed.
THIS article also now sheds a little more light on Justin Beebe’s WFF experience PRIOR to joining the ‘Lolo Hothshots’ only this season.
—————————————————
Justin Beebe had left Vermont this spring for his first job with the Lolo Hotshots, named for the Lolo National Forest near Missoula, Montana. He had gone west in 2012 with a New Hampshire forest firefighting crew, and realized his life’s ambition and had worked for the past four years to accumulate the skills and experience that would earn him a Hotshot spot, said his sister, Jessica.
—————————————————
The ‘New Hampshire forest fighting crew’ that was, apparently, Justin Beebe’s FIRST ( and ONLY? ) exposure to Wildland Firefighting prior to being hired as a ‘Lolo Hotshot’ is not specifically NAMED in the article.
But that does mean he DID have at least SOME ‘prior WFF experience’ ( Staring in 2012 ) before stepping ‘out on the line’ with the Lolo Hotshots.
And regardless of whether Justin’s father was ‘misunderstanding’ either the JOB of a Hotshot or his own son’s understanding of what that JOB entails… Justin’s father REPEATS the same quote in this interview that he has already stated in other interviews…
——————————————————–
“To him, it was about saving HOUSES and people’s LIVES,” his dad said.
——————————————————–
We’re any private detectives hired for the Yarnell hill fire where 19 firefighters died?
No Diane it was investigated by an Interagency assigned group with severial different Agencies represented.
NIFC dispatched the Team as requested by Arizona State Fire.
also by ADOSH.
I offered my services several times…originally to the attorney (the very first one who is an ex Prescott Hotshot) who was hired by the families, but he didn’t even have the courtesy to respond to my offer of pro bono help.
I think I could have done them some good before the water was all turned into a big giant muddy cesspool of competing agendas, AND I even had a recently lapsed Private Investigators AGENCY License that I offered to renew at my own expense which would have been about $800.00. It is a felony to conduct a private investigation in Arizona without that license.
And FYI…Arizona is pretty strict, unlike about half the states are. To get a license like that you have to be able to document at least 6000 hours of complex investigation time plus a bunch of other requirements which include a bond as an insurance policy for clients.
Plus at that time I was living in Flagstaff so picking up my own travel would not have been a big deal.
BUT here is the problem. NO ONE (except us and a very few silent types who hide in the shadows) have ever wanted to know what really happened. Not the families, not the public, not the agencies, not the politicians or civic leaders…no one.
Everyone but us are very happy with the original investigation and story line. The big bad fire took a turn for the worse that could not have been anticipated or predicted, the men ALL died true heroes, not because they were heroes before the fire like I assert, but because they DIED on the fire. The movie is going to cement that idea in America’s collective conscience although it is already cut in stone thanks to Amanda Marsh and the Prescott Cabal.
In all fairness to the original attorney, he was mostly hired to get full time city benefits for Andrew Ashcraft, even though he was still a part time employee. And no, I think he was morally entitled to those full time benefits, but so are all temporary wildland firefighters but he didn’t “deserve” them legally.
If he would have been a federal WF like so many others who have been killed on the job…there would have been top notch federal lawyers on the job in a federal court room and their their lawsuit would have been thrown out ASAP.
They won in some kind of administrative hearing before a nobody who ruled in their favor because public opinion was running so high agaigst the used car salesman Mayor and the run scared city council who just all wanted to put this behind them.
So SOME of the families made out like bandits while others got royally screwed. The top person on that royally screwed list is Marcia McKee, Grant McKee’s mother. She got cross ways with the Arizona 100 Club and the inbred hillbillies who run Prescott so she got exactly nothing.
And truthfully, the families made the right decision from a financial point of view. An investigation by me would not have brought their loved ones back and I would have pissed everybody off in the process and whoever hired me, free or not, would have been cut off from the feeding trough as punishment for being a Wack-a-Mole and sticking their heads up.
And I haven’t put a lot of thought into it…and WTKTT and I always disagree about this point, but I don’t think there is any kind of case there from the Twisp Fire. They were federal employees who were operating as such under some sort of mutual aide agreement which did not change their employment status.
So their cases are really cut and dry. A heirs of a dead temporary federal employee are entitled to X amount of dollars (I think it is about $250.000, but I can’t remember now).
And I might not have even been able to help the families of the Granite Mountain crew. My whole angle from day one has been to focus on their training, or lack thereof which was obviously flawed or they would not have laid down to die horrible deaths while trying to climb into WF Death Shrouds (TM or C by G. Olson, 2015…all rights reserved) in an area about the size of a three car garage when they needed a minimum of 16.5 acres to survive without serious injuries INSIDE their Death Shrouds, the flame lengths generated by the YHF.
Unlike what Rocksteady and so many others think…if the area a WF is thinking about deploying a fire shelter is NOT survivable and especially if it is NOT a close call…they MUST run and at least die on their feet moving away from the threat while looking for a place to deploy that may be survivable.
I hate to pick on my good Canadian friend, but theories like he and others have put forward put current and future WF lives at risk by suggesting anything other than they MUST run if they will die by staying where they are at. To me…it is a NO BRAINER!
With a tragedy as huge as Yarnell I would think any and all offers to analyze the circumstances would be welcome. Gary with your extensive background in forestry and I believ e investigative work as well I can’t imagine your skill set not being utilized. But then, I am a retired elementary school teacher with a different focus.
Canada dose not have Fire shelters they run if they have to.
I never trusted a Fire Shelter though I carried one fro 1965 to 1993
I never put my self or crews in a position to ever use one.
All of that is right on the money Bob.
GAry, I was not recommending deploying a shelter in a non survivable area, I was simply drawing a line of thought processes, where the original comment was “Lyon ran out of the fire”. I assumed other, non WFF types on this site may have jumped to the conclusion that if GMIHS had done same that they would have survived.
I was trying to head the theory off at the pass… Due to the extreme heat and incredible rates of spread, there would have been ZERO chance of the GMIHS personnel outrunning the Yarnell Hill Fire…
I tried to do that by stating that the Twisp fire was a different fuel type and fire behaviour, basically telling people that even if that was a standard order, to drop packs and run, rather than deploying, it would not have helped in the Yarnell scenario.
Guess I did not articulate it well enough…
I was using the online Canadian-American dictionary and guess something got missed in the translation 🙂
My sincerest apologies, I sure am glad all of you Canadians are so darn nice, ya, you becha…you know.
I do have my radar up all of the time because I got so much push back when I and others championed this argument way back when. I really do feel strongly that we (and no…I don’t have a mouse in my pocket, I mean “we” as in everybody) led by the NWCG are collectively training our young WF to die through brainwashing to overly depend on those damn death shrouds to save them.
This over dependence leads to unacceptable reckless behavior the same way some people drive faster and take more chances because they have both seat belts and air bags.
There is a whole chapter on this topic swirling around inside my head. But in the meantime, I do apologize to you…our northern friend.
FYI…I came very close to being a Canuck myself…my mother and father seriously looked at staying in Canada on their way to the Land of the Midnight Sun, while they were living in construction camps and my father was working on the Alcan Highway, but they kept going north so I was born in the U.S. Territory of Alaska.
I love to say that I was born in a U.S. territory. No one can ever guess where I was born when I say I was born in one, all they can come up with is Guam.
**
** ACTOR MILES TELLER TALKS ABOUT ‘GRANITE MOUNTAIN’
Actor Miles Teller, who plays Brendan McDonough in this ‘Granite Mountain’ fillum thing, has been out heavily interviewing and promoting the movie ‘War Dogs’ that he is in which hit the theatres last weekend.
He hasn’t had a thing to say about being in the ‘Granite Mountain’ fillum in any of these ‘interviews’.. until just a few hours ago.
In the following interview… he is ASKED how the ‘Granite Mountain’ fillum thing is going.
Turns out his ‘impression’ of the whole ‘Hotshoting’ thing is that it’s just ‘primitive’… and just a whole lot of physical labor… and yea… sometimes it gets HOT where you are working.
He also said he is now ‘heading back’ to Sante Fe where they have yet to film the ‘stuff’ with the ‘really big flames’.
The interview…
We interview Miles Teller about War Dogs, Fantastic Four & Granite Mountain!
Published: 7 hours ago – By Eric Walkuski
http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/we-interview-miles-teller-about-war-dogs-fantastic-four-granite-mountain-772#.V7HwIJK5RnY.twitter
From that interview…
——————————————————————————————-
Interviewer: Hey man, how’s everything?
Miles Teller: Good, man. I fly back tonight. I’m in the middle of filming a movie in Santa Fe right now. Granite Mountain.
Interviewer: How’s that going?
Miles Teller: It’s incredible. The cast is sick, obviously, you’ve got Josh Brolin, Jeff Bridges, Jennifer Connelly, James Badge Dale, Taylor Kitsch.
Interviewer: Are you doing your own stunts and that kind of thing?
Miles Teller: I guess the biggest stunt with these guys… because these guys are hotshots, firefighters, it’s primitive in terms of what they’re doing. They’re not smokejumpers, they’re not jumping out of helicopters, they’re cutting down trees, trying to get rid of fuel and anything that’s going to burn, and that’s just a lot of physical labor. But when I get back we’re going to be getting into the stuff with the really big flames, these guys are up against 60 foot flames, usually at a pretty safe distance, but it’s hot. That’s probably the biggest stunt, is the pure heat.
Interviewer: And in August.
Miles Teller: Yeah, exactly, in Santa Fe. It’s hot.
——————————————————————————————–
Followup…
** THE ‘FAKE’ ANCHOR POINT / WEAVER RIDGE
PUBLIC photos being posted from the ‘set’ of this ‘Granite Mountain’ fillum thing now seem to prove that the exact location they are trying to use to imitate the Yarnel Hill Fire ‘anchor point’… and the work location for the Granite Mountain Hotshots on June 30, 2013… is actually…
White Rock Overlook Park, just EAST of Los Alamos, New Mexico.
‘Grips’ working on the set are posting PUBLIC photos to their PUBLIC Instagram accounts with that exact ‘location’ being ‘stamped’ onto their photos… and some of the actors are posting PUBLIC photos from that same location.
The PHOTOS show that they are ‘filming’ just a few hundred yards EAST of the actual PUBLIC ‘Overlook’ that at that ‘White Rock Overlook Park’.
Here is just one example…
https://66.media.tumblr.com/69edc1a8f7378f27fbf027c776930baa/tumblr_obvkneYN7x1sfe2cco1_540.png
That PHOTO shows what might even be the FILMING of an actual SCENE that is meant to reproduce the moment at the ‘final resting spot’ when all the GM Hotshots were standing / sitting around in those ‘rocks’ up on the ridge and playing ‘tourist’ ( circa 3:50 PM ) and taking all those various photos and videos that would then go on to survive the burnover.
In this photo… we see the ‘actors’ almost seeming to attempt to reproduce one of of the ‘tableaus’ up there on the ridge as captured in one of Christopher MacKenzie’s photos. It appears they have been instructed to ‘gather’ at the fake ‘anchor point’ and be filmed actually USING various ‘smartphones’ ( seen in the photo ).
Even the ‘background’ ( with no CGI effects added in yet ) seems to ‘resemble’ the same view back towards Yarnell from that ‘final resting spot’ that would be seen if they really were filming up on the Weaver Mountains outside Yarnell.
They are looking out into a ‘valley’… with a ‘mountain’ in the distance that bears a close resemblance to the view in the distance as would actually be seen from that original ‘anchor point’ back in Yarnell… and there is even a ‘ridge’ of sorts on the RIGHT side of the photo similar to the one that was actually the ‘north ridge’ of the ‘blind box canyon’ and the ridge that was actually blocking Granite Mountain’s view of the Boulder Springs Ranch from the ‘anchor point’.
And notice that some of the actors are even ‘staring’ off into the distance in what also would be the same relative direction as ‘Yarnell’ was in relation to that ‘final resting spot’ on June 30, 2013.
But also notice ( in the top center of the photo ) what is also STARING BACK at these actor/hotshots as they “Look towards Yarnell” ( so to speak ).
A DRONE with a CAMERA mounted underneath it ( complete with ‘red’ navigation lights on since it was late in the day and getting dark ).
This is not the first photo of ‘CAMERA DRONES’ being used for various things during this ‘principal photography’ phase for this ‘fillum’.
They have been using ‘CAMERA DRONES’ a LOT while filming this thing.
Here is another PUBLIC photo posted ‘from the set’ of this Granite Mountain fillum thing by one of the ‘camera’ persons to their ‘Instagram page’.
It shows the same DRONE seen in the photo above ‘landed’… and yes… that is the cinematographer Claudio Miranda there on the right side of the photo holding the ‘controls’ and the ‘remote viewer’ ( the little white box above the antennas )…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BItSL_FDoUm/?taken-by=emgmedia
There are other photos ‘from the set’ posted by this same person to their ‘Instagram Wall’… which is here…
https://www.instagram.com/emgmedia/
EMGMEDIA is the ‘Camera Company’ being used for this ‘fillum’.
They are looking down into the Rio Grande Valley with the mighty Rio Grande River in the bottom. I am having another urge to post another one of my photos because….that is what I do.
And here are two photos taken from a spot right BELOW where they are sitting. in the first photo of our precious first daughter standing on the banks of the…OK, it’s not really the “mighty” Rio Grande, but you can see White Rocks in the background of the photo.
The second photo is of our Hija (Northern New Mexico slang for “loving daughter”) sitting on the tailgate of my MANLY pickup truck. It was a 1 ton 4×4 Ford Crew Cab…that’s right,,,an original Six Pack I bought at a GSA Auction that belonged to the U.S. Forest Service. That truck was a BEAST!
I can’t help myself. I am a lonely old man who keeps taking little strolls down memory lane because this thread has a lot of “triggers” for me.
Of course…a trigger for me could just be, “Hey Gary…what’s goin’ on? How are you feelin’?
“Well…let me tell you…I have got a rash on my ass that won’t quit, the doctor say’s….
Cool photos though right? Right below where they are filming the movie that will reduce all of us to tears.
Whoops…here is the link.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
OK…I am going to come clean because I know Otis will catch me…otherwise I wouldn’t.
“…and I have got a rash on my ass that won’t quit. But you know me…I can’t complain.” (The Big Lebowski)
Reply to Gary Olson post on
August 16, 2016 at 1:30 am
>> Gary Olson says…
>>
>> And here are two photos taken from a spot right
>> BELOW where they are sitting.
Thanks for the pics. I still think it is ‘beyond ironic’ that they are filming the ‘fake’ Yarnell Hill Fire ‘fillum’ in YOUR old stomping grounds.
( Pajaritio, White Rock, Valles Caldera, etc. )
I also still think you should have been hired as a ‘consultant’ for this ‘fillum’. You probably could have saved them tons of ‘scouting’ time ( and money ) and just TOLD them where certain ‘views’ and ‘locations’ were.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> in the first photo of our precious first daughter standing
>> on the banks of the…OK, it’s not really the “mighty”
>> Rio Grande, but you can see White Rocks in the background
>> of the photo.
Yep. That matches OTHER photographs being posted from this most recent round of ‘filming’ that’s been going on.
Obviously they are going to ‘CGI out’ that river itself… unless they truly don’t care whether what they are ‘filming’ bears any resemblance to where the men ACTUALLY died.
SIDENOTE: If that’s where they really ‘pretending’ the ‘anchor spot’ was and the place they were all ‘resting’ and ‘playing tourist’ before deciding to leave the ‘safe black’… I wonder what DECISION they have made regarding where all the OTHER Hotshots were ( the ones that we never see in any of the photographs ). This is part of what I’ve been saying all along with regards to DECISION making. They can SAY they are not trying to be ‘accurate’ all day long… and that it’s just some kind of generic “Tribute” fillum…. but they still have to FILM some of these critical scenes and make DECISIONS about things that are still not fully known. And that includes WHERE Marsh actually was when Steed and the others finally realized they were in deep shit. It will be interesting to see what CHOICES they are making and what ‘impressions’ they are going to leave the audience regarding what THEY think happened.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> The second photo is of our Hija (Northern New Mexico
>> slang for “loving daughter”) sitting on the tailgate of
>> my MANLY pickup truck. It was a 1 ton 4×4 Ford Crew
>> Cab…that’s right,,,an original Six Pack I bought at a
>> GSA Auction that belonged to the U.S. Forest Service.
>> That truck was a BEAST!
Hard to kill, fer sure.
The ‘wife’ looks like “Hurry up and take the picture already”.
Yes…my dear wife was never in to my family photographing thing, which I thought of as part of my job description. I was always pausing the action to get photographs and she was always bitchin’ about it…none stop.
But I have quoted the great Sun Tzu before on the blog when he said, “If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by.”
So guess what? That is a rhetorical question, I don’t really expect you to be able to guess.
My dear wife’s most valuable possessions and just about the only thing that is stored anymore in my giant fire proof gun safe…are the thousands and thousands of photographs I took of the kids growing up…mostly in and around Santa Fe. I won that one…and a few others.
I am starting to scan them now…talk about a time killer. Thank goodness…because I have a lot of time that needs to be killed.
My 1 ton 4×4 Ford came without a bed on it because it had a utility bed they kept for the next rig. I had to go to junk yard and buy one and then the whole thing got an Earl Scheib $99.99 paint job.
Thank you for admiring my rig. If I could do one thing in my life over, I would go back and NOT sell that truck…but mamma needed a new pair of shoes…so it had to go.
It was between that truck or my 1976 Dodge 3/4 ton 4×4 (4×4 and Power Wagon are redundant) Power Wagon, which I bought new and still have today (except it is in storage in Flagstaff waiting for my triumphant return to the Great State of Arizonaistan.
And the Power Wagon had the longer bed (8 foot) because since the Ford was a Six Pack, it had a 6′ foot bed, so the Dodge hauled more firewood and was easier to work in between the trees etc. to where the firewood I had just cut down and bucked up waited for me to load.
**
** TWISP FIRE TRAGEDY – ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY APPROACHING
As the one-year anniversary of the ‘Twisp Fire’ tragedy approaches… there are a number of articles beginning to appear in addition to the one that John posted below.
That article contained the following direct quote from Daniel Lyon, the only survivor of the four-man Engine 642 crew… questioning the whole “Let’s all be Heroes” thing prevalent in the current approach to WFF firefighting and the urban interface…
——————————————————————————
“Looking back on it, if it were up to me, most of these wildfires, they need to let them burn if lives are at risk,” Lyon says. “Once you lose a firefighter, they ain’t coming back.”
——————————————————————————
And here is another recent ( August 8 ) interview with Engine 642 survivor Daniel Lyon with even more ‘direct quotes’ from him…
Seattle Met
Article Title: “Every Other Day, I Was a Ball of Tears.”
Published: 8/8/2016 at 5:16am – By Matthew Halverson
http://www.seattlemet.com/articles/2016/8/8/every-other-day-i-was-a-ball-of-tears
Here is just ONE of the quotes from survivor Daniel Lyon in THAT new article…
—————————————————————————
The hardest thing to know how to respond to is when people say,
“There’s a reason you’re here.”
There’s a reason my buddies should be here too.
—————————————————————————
RE: “The hardest thing to know how to respond to is when people say, “There’s a reason you’re here.” There’s a reason my buddies should be here too.”
There is a song by the Austin Lounge Lizards called, “Jesus loves me but he Can’t stand you.”
I think of it when a mother interviewed on TV claims divine intervention for her child being saved from the flood or tornado, when six other mothers are planning funerals. It seems so unkind and….unChristian…
Life is hard enough without having others make us feel abandoned.
Reply to Muzzy post on August 14, 2016 at 7:37 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Life is hard enough without having others make us feel abandoned.
Copy that.
But, probably much to the chagrin of US Forestry and/or all the “hero worshipers”… it really sounds like Daniel Lyon is actually ( at least ) QUESTIONING what actually HAPPENED to himself and his ‘buddies’… and hasn’t just drunk the kool-aid and is saying the usual crap like “at least my friends died doing what they love to do” or “if I had it to do all over again… I would”.
And as the train pulls into the station with the signpost “Twisp Tragedy – The One Year Anniversary”… it turns out that we DO know a little more than just that USFS CRaP report wanted us to know.
In the article that John just posted a link to…
The Seattle Times
Article Title: “Out of the Flames of Hell”
Published: August 5, 2016 at 6:00 am
Updated August 8, 2016 at 8:54 am
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/northwest/out-of-the-flames-of-hell-burned-firefighter-marks-anniversary-of-twisp-blaze/
…there is the following paragraph…
————————————————————————-
The crew members on Engine No. 642 were trying to escape down a winding dirt road when they ran into blinding smoke, crashed their rig and were overtaken by fire, a joint state and federal report found. The blaze was sparked by tree branches chafing a power line, an investigation showed.
————————————————————————-
In that paragraph… the following TWO ‘phrases’ are actually ‘clickable links’…
1. “a joint state and federal report found.”
2. “tree branches chaffing a powerline”
The FIRST link is just a jumplink to USFS employee John Phipp’s CRaP report about the fatalities at the Twisp Fire.
But the SECOND link is to another ‘report’ altogether.
That SECOND link takes you to the Seattle Times article where they had obtained, through a Washington State “Open Records Request”, a copy of the actual Washington State Department of Natural Resources ( DNR ) investigation report into the ORIGIN of the Twisp Fire.
Washington DNR was ‘required by law’ to investigate the Twisp Fire… and they actually had investigators right ‘on scene’ there beginning that task even BEFORE the fatalities occurred.
Here is a direct link to where that SECOND link takes you…
The Seattle Times
Article Title: Branches chafing power line caused deadly Twisp fire
Published May 20, 2016 at 8:31 pm – By Hal Bernton
Updated May 21, 2016 at 12:18 pm
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/report-branches-chafing-power-line-caused-deadly-twisp-fire/
And in that article is also a direct link to a ‘copy’ of this DNR Twisp River Fire investigation report ( most of it, anway. Attachments have been excluded ).
This DNR ‘investigation’ did NOT encompass the entire events of the Twisp Fire tragedy… or even the circumstances whereby their own employees participated and also ended up in the hospital.
THIS ‘report’ ( as obtained by the Seattle Times ) was specifically focused on what CAUSED the August 19, 2015 Twisp Fire in the first place.
And ( unlike John Phipps and US Forestry ) these DNR ‘investigators’ did a damn good job of doing just that.
John Phipp’s CRaP protocol ‘report’ made absolutely NO mention of what even MIGHT have caused that fire which eventually killed THREE USFS employees.
But through photographs, witness testimony, and actual no-shit physical evidence examined in laboratories… the DNR investigators have proved to about 99.9 percent certainty that the actual CAUSE of the Twisp Fire was improperly trimmed tree branches ‘contacting’ that powerline near the Twisp River Road.
That ‘power pole’ ( seen in that photograph at the TOP of USFS’s CRaP report ) was owned and operated ( and supposed to have been maintained ) by the Okanogan County Electric Cooperative ( OCEC ).
Their ‘legal’ safety standard says that all trees must be trimmed for ‘no transient contact’ for at least 10 feet on either side of an aerial powerline.
The OCEC says their maintenance records show ‘tree trimming’ having been performed in the 2012-2013 winter maintenance season. That’s a little more than about 2 and 1/2 years before the Twisp tragedy.
But the DNR investigators were also able to prove that the tree ‘branches’ which had contacted that powerline on August 19, 2015 belonged to ‘limbs’ that had encroached into the 10-foot ‘safety zone’ at least FOUR years prior to the Twisp tragedy.
The report also says that OCEC still refuses to ‘accept’ the results of the DNR investigation not based on their own confidence in their own ‘maintenance records’… but because OCEC says their ‘system’ never detected any ‘voltage drops’ ( they call them ‘blinks’ ) on that power grid in the timeframe associated with the start of the Twisp Fire.
OCEC says their ‘systems’ can detect ‘ground faults’ ( called ‘blinks’ ) ever 1/12 of a second anywhere on their ‘grid’… and that there were no such ‘blinks’ detected on that Twisp River Road powerline until the power was actually ‘shut off’ in response to the fire itself.
But the DNR report also proves that there can be ‘contact’ resulting in ‘ignitions’ of aerial material that would then fall to the ground which would NOT produce these ‘blinks’ that OCEC swears they never saw.
OCEC is obviously just taking the ‘stance’ regarding the DNR ‘report’ that their own lawyers are advising them to take.
Also unlike John Phipp’s CRaP protocol report… the DNR report now gives us the NAME of the ‘Department of Natural Resources’ Incident Commander who was PART of that ‘Unified Command’ structure that was running the Twisp Fire when the fatalities took place.
His NAME was Donald “Buck” Sylvester.
From very early on in the DNR report…
——————————————————————
At 12:52 PM, DNR Wildland Fire Investigator (INVF) John Morgan was dispatched to investigate the wildfire to determine its origin and cause, and he drove to and met with Okanogan Fire Distrcit 6 Chief Don Waller and DNR Incident Commander (IC) Donald “Buck” Sylvester at an Incident Command Post (ICP) that had been established at 591 Twisp River Rd., which was located across the road and directly south of a house that displayed its address as 584.
———————————————————
What a concept, right?
An agency legally tasked with investigating incidents in which its own employees were involved being UNAFRAID to use their own employees’ names in the report itself.
And as far as ‘what else we now know’…
John Phipp’s CRaP protocol report also went ‘out of its way’ to make sure it NEVER mentioned WHO was actually DRIVING Engine 642 when it went off Woods Canyon Road that day.
But Phipp’s actually did ‘accidentally’ leave an ‘Easter Egg’ in there which pretty much confirms that it was USFS employee Richard ( Rick ) Wheeler.
He was really the only one of the FOUR firefighters known to be traveling in Engine 642 that day who could have been qualfied to be ‘driving’ it… but the ‘Easter Egg’ in Phipp’s report is what really CONFIRMS that.
What most people still don’t realize is that Engine 642 was actually ordered to go UP Woods Canyon Road ( and back down again ) at least TWICE that fateful afternoon.
The FIRST time it was ‘ordered’ to come UP Woods Canyon Road is when whoever this mysterious “Left Flank Point of Contact” ( LPOC ) started ‘hiking’ up Woods Canyon Road and realized it was longer than he thought.
That’s when HE ( this mysterious LPOC ) ‘ordered’ Engine 642 to come up Woods Canyon Road to ‘drive’ him up the road so he wouldn’t have to hike it on foot.
HOWEVER… even this LPOC ( at that time ) obviously had reservations about bringing too many ‘men’ up there above that uncontained wildfire.
So this FIRST time… he ‘ordered’ the entire crew of Engine 642 to get OUT of that vehicle and that only the engine and ‘the driver’ should come up to play TAXI for him.
And that ‘driver’ of Engine 642 was then NAMED in THAT part of Phipp’s CRaP report as having been “Rick Wheeler”
From PDF page 14 of John Phipp’s CRaP report…
———————————————————————
They ( the ICs ) also discussed the predicted wind shift “at 3:00 p.m.” At the conclusion of this briefing, they agreed that the “point of contact” would go up Woods Canyon Road to assess what was above the three-way intersection. He was conducting his initial recon and was not aware that the FD6 had already evacuated the residents. Almost as soon as he began hiking, he realized how far the road went up the canyon and called for Rick Wheeler to drive him up the road in Engine 642. They scouted for potential dozer line, triaged houses, and checked to see if any residents were still in the area. The rest of the crew from Engine 642 remained in the three-way intersection area with firefighters from the other FS engine.
———————————————————————
So how did we then get from ONLY ‘Rick Wheeler’ driving Engine 642 up Woods Canyon Road to it being ‘filled’ with the other firefighters who would then end up burning to death in it ( with one barely escaping that same fate )?
Well… all of sudden this mysterious LPOC guy gets so obsessed with trying to ‘protect’ EMPTY piles of lumber and drywall and shingles ABOVE an uncontained wildfire that he then ORDERS ‘Rick Wheeler’ to drive back DOWN ‘Woods Canyon Road’ to GET the ‘other three crewmembers’… and then ( for the SECOND time that afternoon ) drive all the way back UP Woods Canyon Road and focus on trying to ‘save’ ‘House number 2’, as per the CRaP diagram.
From the same PDF page 14 of John Phipp’s CRaP report…
——————————————————————–
After initially scouting the structures on the right flank, the “point of contact” called for three more firefighters to help Rick with structure protection at house 2. The “point of contact” continued scouting on foot. Rick left house 2 in Engine 642 and drove down to pick up the three firefighters and bring them to house 2. The reconfigured engine crew consisted of Rick, Andrew Zajac, Tom Zbyszewski, and another firefighter. They drove to house 2, parked the engine, and started structure protection operations.
———————————————————————–
So there is ‘Rick Wheeler’ being mentioned by NAME again as the DRIVER of ‘Engine 642’ that day… as he was ORDERED to go GET the ‘other men’ who would soon ( save one ) lose their lives on Woods Canyon Road
The ‘another firefighter’ that John Phipp’s was refusing to even name was, of course, Daniel Lyon.
When the CRaP report then reaches the part where it is describing the actual fatalities… ‘Rick Wheeler’ is NOT mentioned… but it seems perfectly obvious that if he was the one doing all that ‘driving’ of Engine 642 for BOTH of those ‘trips’ UP and DOWN Woods Canyon Road… then Rick Wheeler would have also been the one driving Engine 642 that ‘one last time’ that day.
There was also an OSHA investigation, but I have seen nothing of that. Do you know if that’s still in the pipeline?
Reply to Muzzy post on August 15, 2016 at 10:49 am
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> There was also an OSHA investigation, but I have seen
>> nothing of that. Do you know if that’s still in the pipeline?
The (required) OSHA investigation was ‘over and done with’ in less than 7 days… right after the Twisp workplace fatalities took place.
Bada bing… bada boom.
“Nothing to see here… move along… move along”…
OSHA opened their investigation of the August 19, 2015 Twisp River Fire
workplace fatalities just 48 hours after the incident, on August 21, 2015.
They had their ‘Closing Conference’ just 7 days later, on August 28, 2015.
They just listed the incident as an ‘Accident’… and there were absolutely NO citations of fines issued to anyone.
Their ‘official report’ doesn’t even include any kind of ‘report’ at all, as ALL OSHA case file(s) are SUPPOSED to have.
There is no ‘Narrative’ or even any actual ‘Report’ regarding their investigation and NOTHING ‘attached’ to the ‘official case file’ at all.
OSHA Inspection Detail
OSHA Inspection: 1087290.015 – U.S. Forest Service
Twisp River Fire – Twisp, WA 98856 – August 19, 2015
https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/establishment.inspection_detail?id=1087290.015
The entire contents of the online CASE FILE…
——————————————————————-
OSHA Inspection Detail
OSHA Inspection: 1087290.015 – U.S. Forest Service
Inspection Information – Office: Bellevue
Nr: 1087290.015
Report ID: 1032300
Open Date: 08/21/2015
U.S. Forest Service – Twisp River Fire – Twisp, WA 98856
Union Status: Union
SIC: ( No entry )
NAICS: 115310/Support Activities for Forestry
Mailing: 215 Melody Lane, Wenatchee, WA 98801
Inspection Type: Fat/Cat
Scope: Partial
Advanced Notice: N
Ownership: ( No entry )
Safety/Health: Safety
Emphasis: L:Fedsafe
Related Activity…
Type: Accident
ID: 1013612
Safety: ( No violations cited )
Health: ( No violations citations )
Close Conference: 08/28/2015
Case Status: CLOSED
NO REPORT NARRATIVE INCLUDED / NO ATTACHMENTS
——————————————————————
** OIG Investigation
Because the employees who died were US Forestry employees… the United States Department of Agricutlture’s “Office of Inspector General” ( OIG ) is/was REQUIRED by LAW to conduct their OWN independent investigation into the Twisp Fire fatalities.
There is absolutely NO RECORD of this ‘required by LAW’ USDA OIG inspection ever having taken place.
Zero. Zip. Nada.
So apparently… since there is no ‘Narrative’ or ‘Report’ whatsoever… OSHA didn’t even bother to ‘investigate’ the circumstances of the Twisp workplace ‘accident’ itself… or even obtain the ‘Red-Card’ ratings of the deceased FFs to make sure they were even qualified to BE in that workplace.
There also appears to have been no attempt to obtain the maintenance records of ‘Engine 642’ itself… or to ascertain whether the person driving it that day was even ‘rated’ to be doing that.
They ( OSHA ) apparently just completely ‘blew off’ investigating HOW and WHY those 3 FEDERAL employees really died in that workplace.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
YOUR tax dollars at work.
I see from your post that the FFs were Union. I wonder if they did an investigation…
Yes. I saw that in the ‘case file’.
I did the best search I know how to do regarding that and I can find NOTHING.
SIDENOTE: It really is very ODD that there is absolutely NO ‘report’ document at all associated with this CLOSED case file there at OSHA.
Look around on that OSHA site and look at other CLOSED cases.
There is ALWAYS ( at least ) some sort of ‘report’ associated with it that, if nothing else, just details what the investigators DID… and WHEN.. with regards to their investigation.
Kinda like what we saw at the very top of ADOSH’s Yarnell ‘Inspection Narrative’.
Just ( at the very list ) a chronological list of what the investigators DID… and WHEN… while the case was still open and before any kind of ‘closing conference’.
There is NOTHING like that associated with this official OSHA Twisp Fire investigation.
That really does qualify as ‘very strange’.
Unions for Federal employees are not really unions in the true sense of the meaning. Ronald Reagan made sure of that when he broke the Air Traffic Controllers Union by firing all of the air traffic controllers. Congress has passed a law that forbids federal employees from unionizing and in return, they were given the Civil Service Protection Act.
Something similar to unions have morphed in some areas for some employees (Special Agents were prohibited from joining any gov. union by the unions because we were considered management attack dogs or the rat squad…or whatever) over the decades into something called unions, that are really more like associations with professional bitchers.
They can’t strike or engage in collective bargaining or anything really useful…they just sit around and bitch (non-gender specific). I think Bob said a ways downstream he was some kind of quasi gov. union official at some point, so if he ever comes back, maybe he can enlighten us more.
So…the bottom line is that I don’t think you should “think” union even if you read they were in a union. It certainly would have no relationship to a structural firefighters union that go for highway robbery in the name of their members. That is just sour grapes on my part. I was always so jealous of all the outrageous benefits structural firefighters got while I was laboring away in my primitive job wishing I could take a shower for 10 years.
Oh…and halfway through my first season, I asked my seat mate who was a Hopi Indian, “Say Layman, how many years have you been doing this job.” Layman held up five fingers without saying a word. I dropped my head into my chest and groaned because I didn’t think I could make it past my first season, much less four more.
That was the most meaningful and longest conversation Layman and I had all season. He was a man of few words…English or Hopi, but a damn good WF. I am going to post a photo of Layman and me because…that’s what I do. But forgive, for once again…I digress.
Layman Sakanema and me.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
This is actually my second year after Layman and I were no longer seatmates because I had graduated to the back-of-the-bus squad.
When I was an FNG, I went down the row of seats on the bus asking, “Can I sit here?” And I stopped at the first person who didn’t say, “Fuck Off Asshole”, which was Layman. And Layman didn’t actually say anything, yes or no…so I took that as a, “Yes, of course you may, please sit down FNG.”
So…I always really liked Layman because he didn’t hate me. I was disappointed when he finally didn’t come back one year.
Here we go again. I wonder if Daniel Lyon or his parents have any thoughts about this.
Reply to Muzzy post on August 15, 2016 at 3:22 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Here we go again. I wonder if Daniel Lyon or
>> his parents have any thoughts about this.
I would bet actual money that they ( all three of them ) aren’t even aware that the incident has never been fully investigated.
Daniel Lyon still has a little over TWO YEARS to actually file a ‘personal injury due to negligence’ civil lawsuit.
>> Daniel Lyon still has a little over TWO YEARS
>> to actually file a ‘personal injury due to
>> negligence’ civil lawsuit.
The same is true for the families of the 3 firefighters who DIED that day… August 19, 2015.
If the DNR investigators had found that the fire was either deliberately set there at the base of the power pole ( the proven origin of the Twisp Fire )… or had been ‘negligently’ ( lit cigarette thrown out a car window, etc. )…
…and the ‘person(s)’ involved had been identified…
…those ‘person(s)’ could IMMEDIATELY be charged with manslaughter and also be IMMEDIATELY held responsible for the horrible injuries suffered by firefighter Daniel Lyon.
So now that the DNR investigators HAVE proven that fire WAS caused by the failure of the Okanogan County Electric Company ( OCEC ) to properly maintain their own power poles…
…well?… same story, right?
It means the OCEC is DIRECTLY responsible for that fire getting started… and whatever happened after that.
So why haven’t THEY been ‘charged’ with anything yet?
Let a JURY decide if they really had been falsifying their maintenance records, and failing to operate a ‘safe’ Utility System as they are required to do by law.
Muzzy–Divine Intervention? The Irish Gods do smile at the stupidity of some of the idiots of the world. Don’t play golf if you do not know how.
Dying is not bad, but when you kill others then it is not good. Marsh, Steed, et. al., are on the chopping block. Their menu for others was shitty.
Today life was not hard. Joy showed my daughter a play that producer, Erid Matthews made. Nineteen of his friends had died of aids, yet he was alive. This man had not let it set in on his conscious until the GMHS were killed. Ered visited our camp in the desert after the fire–this tragedy had hit him now.
Today, Joy, my daughter and I looked at a review of the film. My daughter said that is not my Dad but enjoyed the film.
No, we were not Amanda Marsh, handing out cakes or pies to GMHS, but that day we were there and had we made the same decisions Marsh did, we would be dead.
It brought to mind we were survivors of a tragedy, yet now we know by only 11 minutes. Perhaps Ered knew that his chances of survival were similar–but for the grace of a god or two, there go I–Sonny, Ered, Joy or many others.
See when I went back for Joy it was a cost of precious 40 minutes, then 51 minutes to being burned to death dropped to 11 minutes. But who could know these things, yet one Sonny knew that time was of essence.
Ered survived, yet 19 of his friends did not. Then another 19 men he knew also perished. My daughter gave $1 to a man begging today with 19 on his shirt. Nineteen was photographed over my shoulder when Joy decided we should go to the mountain on Christmas night one year after their deaths. Was it 19 instead of 11 minutes or we would have perished? I think so, since people were fleeing, yet we still had some minutes at ll.
One wonders why the filmmakers have not consulted Ered. He was on top of this thing, still is–a playwright and producer excelling in his work.
**
** ‘LOLO HOTSHOT’ JUSTIN BEEBE KILLED – APPARENTLY BY A ‘TREE STRIKE’
FOX-5 KVVU-TV
Officials: Firefighter killed in line of duty
Posted: Aug 14, 2016 2:38 PM CST
Updated: Aug 14, 2016 3:02 PM CST
http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/32755104/officials-firefighter-killed-in-line-of-duty
————————————————————————–
Officials have confirmed a Forest Service firefighter has lost his life while battling a blaze near the Great Basin National Park.
Nichole Andler, with the National Park Service, reported the death of firefighter Justin Beebe, of Vermont, in a news release. Beebe was a member of the LoLo Hotshots based in Region 1 with the U.S. Forest Service.
The fire crew member succumbed to injuries sustained after being struck by a tree during firefighting efforts on Saturday afternoon according to a park service news release.
“This loss of life is tragic and heartbreaking,” said Steve Mietz, park superintendent. “Please keep the family and Forest Service employees in your thoughts and prayers during this time.”
The Strawberry Fire is about 60 percent contained, and has burned more than four acres after it was started by lightning August 8 near Baker, Nevada, according to park officials.
There are 434 personnel currently working the fire, according to the National Park Service, and this line of duty death remains under investigation.
————————————————————————–
The ‘accident’ actually happened YESTERDAY and Lolo Hotshot Justin Beebe only succumbed to his injuries a few hours ago.
Looks like another ‘Unified Command’ ( jointly managed ) deal…
‘Joint management’ players….
1. Great Basin Incident Management Team 7
2. National Park Service
3. Bureau of Land Management.
http://www.ktnv.com/news/firefighter-killed-while-working-strawberry-fire
From that article…
——————————————————————–
BAKER, Nev. (KTNV) – A firefighter from Vermont was killed while working the Strawberry Fire in Great Basin National Park.
Justin Beebe of Bellows Falls, Vermont, was injured when he was struck by a tree during firefighting efforts on Saturday afternoon, according to Great Basin National Park officials. He later died of his injuries.
He was a member of the Lolo Hotshots based in Region 1 with the U.S. Forest Service.
The Forest Service is investigating this line-of-duty death.
“This loss of life is tragic and heartbreaking,” said Park Superintendent Steve Mietz in a statement. “Please keep the family and Forest Service employees in your thoughts and prayers during this time.”
The Strawberry Fire started on Aug. 8 and is being managed jointly by Great Basin Incident Management Team 7, the National Park Service and the Bureau of Land Management.
——————————————————————–
Correction for above…
It is still not clear exactly WHEN ‘Lolo Hotshot’ Justin Beebe actually DIED.
Half the articles appearing say he DIED yesterday ( Saturday ), but the other half say he only ‘succumbed’ to his injuries today ( Sunday ).
It’s also unclear how much WFF experience Beebe had… but the following article confirms he was a ‘rookie’ to the ‘Lolo Hotshots’ and this was just his FIRST fire season with them.
http://mtstandard.com/natural-resources/fire/lolo-hotshot-dies-fighting-nevada-fire/article_c78fa8b0-2781-5388-8092-1b15e167893e.html
——————————————————–
A member of the Lolo Hotshots died Saturday while fighting a fire in Nevada, according to the National Park Service.
Justin Beebe of Bellows Falls, Vermont, was struck by a falling tree, the Park Service said. The crew was fighting the Strawberry Fire in Great Basin National Park near Baker, Nevada, according to the Park Service.
The U.S. Forest Service is gathering details and will initiate an accident investigation, said Lolo National Forest Supervisor Tim Garcia.
This was Beebe’s first season with the Lolo Hotshots, Garcia said in a statement issued Sunday to Forest Service employees.
——————————————————–
Just about 25 minutes ago… a ‘Las Vegas’ news source close to where the incident took place is providing at least a few more details…
1. First-year Lolo Hotshot Justin Beebe actually died around 4 PM yesterday ( Saturday ).
2. The ‘Tree Strike’ that killed him appears to have been a SNAG falling.
3. The ‘Lolo Hotshots’ have been demobbed from that fire and sent back to Montana.
The Las Vegas Review-Journal
Hotshot crew member dies battling Strawberry Fire
Posted August 14, 2016 – 3:56pm
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/hotshot-crew-member-dies-battling-strawberry-fire
————————————————————-
By NATALIE BRUZDA of the LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL
A U.S. Forest Service firefighter died around 4 p.m. Saturday after he was hit by a tree while working to suppress the Strawberry Fire at Great Basin National Park near Baker.
Justin Beebe of Bellows Falls, Vermont, a member of the Lolo Hotshots based in Missoula, Montana, succumbed to injuries after being struck by a snag during firefighting efforts, according to Forest Service spokeswoman Julie Thomas.
A snag is a standing dead tree or part of a dead tree from which at least the smaller branches have fallen.
The Forest Service is investigating this line-of-duty death.
“This loss of life is tragic and heartbreaking,” Park Superintendent Steve Mietz said in a statement. “Please keep the family and Forest Service employees in your thoughts and prayers during this time.”
According to Thomas, a Hotshot crew is an elite group of firefighters made up of 20 professionals. The remainder of Beebe’s team is en route to Montana, Thomas said.
“Those kids worked together all summer long, and they needed to get home,” she said.
The Strawberry Fire started on Aug. 8 and is being managed jointly by Great Basin Incident Management Team 7, the National Park Service and the Bureau of Land Management.
————————————————————-
**
** ACTOR MILES TELLER TALKS ABOUT ‘GRANITE MOUNTAIN’
Actor Miles Teller, who plays Brendan McDonough in this ‘Granite Mountain’ fillum thing, has been out heavily interviewing and promoting the movie ‘War Dogs’ that he is in which hit the theatres last weekend.
He hasn’t had a thing to say about being in the ‘Granite Mountain’ fillum in any of these ‘interviews’.. until just a few hours ago.
In the following interview… he is ASKED how the ‘Granite Mountain’ fillum thing is going.
Turns out his ‘impression’ of the whole ‘Hotshoting’ thing is that it’s just ‘primitive’… and just a whole lot of physical labor… and yea… sometimes it gets HOT where you are working.
He also said he is now ‘heading back’ to Sante Fe where they have yet to film the ‘stuff’ with the ‘really big flames’.
The interview…
We interview Miles Teller about War Dogs, Fantastic Four & Granite Mountain!
Published: 7 hours ago – By Eric Walkuski
http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/we-interview-miles-teller-about-war-dogs-fantastic-four-granite-mountain-772#.V7HwIJK5RnY.twitter
From that interview…
——————————————————————
Interviewer: Hey man, how’s everything?
Miles Teller: Good, man. I fly back tonight. I’m in the middle of filming a movie in Santa Fe right now. Granite Mountain.
Interviewer: How’s that going?
Miles Teller: It’s incredible. The cast is sick, obviously, you’ve got Josh Brolin, Jeff Bridges, Jennifer Connelly, James Badge Dale, Taylor Kitsch.
Interviewer: Are you doing your own stunts and that kind of thing?
Miles Teller: I guess the biggest stunt with these guys… because these guys are hotshots, firefighters, it’s primitive in terms of what they’re doing. They’re not smokejumpers, they’re not jumping out of helicopters, they’re cutting down trees, trying to get rid of fuel and anything that’s going to burn, and that’s just a lot of physical labor. But when I get back we’re going to be getting into the stuff with the really big flames, these guys are up against 60 foot flames, usually at a pretty safe distance, but it’s hot. That’s probably the biggest stunt, is the pure heat.
Interviewer: And in August.
Miles Teller: Yeah, exactly, in Santa Fe. It’s hot.
——————————————————————
NOTE: The post above above actor Miles Teller somehow got ‘double posted’ down here where it wasn’t meant to appear.
It also posted up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-344686
Woodsman-
they have WOODSMAN tshirts at Kohl’s in MEN SECTION
see:
http://www.kohls.com/product/prd-2517519/mens-sonoma-goods-for-life-woodsman-lager-tee.jsp?ci_mcc=ci&utm_campaign=MENS%20KNITS&utm_medium=CSE&utm_source=google&utm_product=18004456&CID=shopping15&gclid=CjwKEAjwiru9BRDwyKmR08L3iS0SJABN8T4vWPfCMD4393rONv-n6_HLUOfcNZltmjbSqMkDUTI_hRoCT6vw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=COD9u7v7v84CFc1_fgod5N0Omw
Hey Cheerleader!
What’s even better is that they are actually Woodsman LAGER t-shirts!
“What’s on tap? This men’s Woodsman Lager t-shirt delivers refreshing style pour after pour.”
“Mountain brewed. Crafted with Soul” Est. 1928
I like it, Lol
Woodsman
A beer Shirt Really
POWERS IRISH WISKEY FOUNDED 1791
One of my 6th Generation relatives James Powers
Woodsman— I may take away your cheerleader on that one.
Oh forgot to say a bottle starts at $32.00 in Nevada. 87 proof.
I keep two on hand for special friends.
This post is primarily for Otis. I was editing videos and this segment jumped out at me. I think I have finally made and I am now actually channeling the Dude.
I mean…c;mon…it’s kind of hard to hear, but turn up your speakers and listen to my response to a question, the blank look on my face, my partially open mouth, squinting into the sunlight, I am almost drooling on my beard. The simple response, “Ya” spoken not once, but twice…it could actually be the Dude talking…right?
https://youtu.be/hsYWuKR49Fk
Otis and Gary are top notch but only if people want to listen to good sense and truth. In this cookie cutter world truth is as scarce as hens teeth. See the new world wants to hear what they consider as positive–meaning a lie is positive as long as it presents these deaths as OK. Well, how about the truth–17 died due to their so called superior intelligent bosses.
Otis, an outsider, adds, because he is outside of all the bullshit. He sees it from a perspective that no one else on this side of the globe can.
Gary, I can’t view it at the moment will take a look later this afternoon, with your comments in my mind. Saw The Big Lebowski himself (David Huddleston) died the other day “Strong men also cry”.
Thanks for your kind words “Charlie”, I have to admit feel like I’ve gone off the boil and am taking longer breaks between reading (and trying to catch up). I’ve been called clever, and know a lot of theory about a lot of stuff, but I defo lack in common-sense sometimes, so I’m learning a lot from you guys. I’m probably what you really would call an Armchair Quarterback. I will call it out when we turn on each other as sometimes happens.
I really like getting into WTKTT’s precision analysis of things. Especially when we’re all really thinking the well is dry regarding evidence and everything that could be said has been said, you all (we) seem to find another rabbit hole… and hold on tight… here we go… yet more inconsistencies popping up!
At the end of the day it’s all about preventing this from happening again. I think the whole management of forestry and wild lands, especially with regards wild fires has to be questioned. I can’t even remember the first time that I heard the fires were just natural processes in the wilds, that nature had actually sorted itself to come back pretty quick, and that some species of flora actually benefited from fire. It just seems… well… natural, and us mere humans building stuff in the way, expecting the fires to not use up the fuel and to go around us is actually unnatural.
I really do want you to find the answers to all this, and for those that need it – closure.
Otis,
RE: “I really like getting into WTKTT’s precision analysis of things. Especially when we’re all really thinking the well is dry regarding evidence and everything that could be said has been said, you all (we) seem to find another rabbit hole… and hold on tight… here we go… yet more inconsistencies popping up!”
I agree; many thanks to WTKTT for keeping us hewing to the truth, which includes accuracy and completeness.
I would add that my hope is that this blog will encourage others to come forward with new facts. It’s easy to let things lie, especially when there is so much pressure to keep information hidden. I hope that our conversation makes the case that we can prevent more deaths by carefully examining past events. Secrets kill.
Oh Bummer…I missed that he had died. I didn’t see that much in common between him and the Dude, he seemed way to hyper and successful.
I think when you see my completely unscripted cameo as the Dude, you will agree I would make a much better Dude. I mean…”Is this a….what day is this?”
**
** ‘LOS ALAMOS’ = ‘THE FAKE YARNELL’
They are still actively filming ‘fire scenes’ for the ‘Granite Mountain’ ‘fillum’ thing over in New Mexico… and blog posts say they are ‘on schedule’ to finish ‘principal photography’ by around the first week of September.
Actor Geoff Stults just posted yet another ‘shot from the fake fireline’ which finally proves that there is little doubt it is actor James Badge Dale who was hired to play Granite Mountain Assistant Superintendent ‘Jesse Steed’.
Here is the PUBLIC photo that actor Geoff Stults just posted…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BI_oqNlhCzl/?taken-by=geoffmstults
Left to right, in the photo above…
* Actor James Badge Dale in the RED Helmet ( playing Jesse Steed ).
* Actor Geoff Stults ( holding the driptorch and presumably playing Travis Turbyfill ).
* ? Possibly actor Kenneth Miller ( listed as being hired to play Sean Misner ).
But as with ALL of the ‘photos from the fake firelines’ being posted from this ‘fillum’ set… their bright-yellow Nomex shirts are still always WAAAAY too CLEAN.
Here is a ‘schedule’ for some of the ‘filming’ that remains for August, 2016…
They are ( apparently ) still having trouble getting all the ‘extras’ they need for some of the ‘evacuation’ scenes being filmed around the town of ‘Los Alamos’, which is being used as the ‘fake Yarnell’.
The Los Alamos Daily Post
Granite Mountain Film Activity Update
————————————————————————————-
“Granite Mountain” is returning next week to film scenes on Camp May Road, the Los Alamos Justice Center, the Los Alamos Police Department Detention Center and private residences in Los Alamos and White Rock.
The film and staging will take place at the following locations and times next week:
Sullivan Field Parking Lot—will be closed 6 a.m. Monday, Aug. 8 through 9 p.m. Friday, Aug. 12 for staging of 10-12 large film trailers. Public access will be provided around the perimeter of the parking lot, including the dumpsters.
Camp May Road, Camp May, Pajarito Mountain and resort facilities—will be closed 6 a.m. through 9 p.m. Wednesday, Aug. 10 for filming.
White Rock Overlook Point—will be closed 9 a.m. Thursday, Aug. 11 through 5 p.m. Saturday, Aug. 13.
The Justice Center—is scheduled for filming 6 a.m. to approximately 5 p.m. Friday, Aug. 12. During that time, the Justice Center will be open, but there will be no public access to the second floor of the building.
The current filming schedule shows “Granite Mountain” returning to Los Alamos and/or White Rock Aug. 24, 25 and 29 to film the final scenes.
All schedules are subject to change and the Los Alamos Film Office will make every effort to notify the general public through the local media and County website, Facebook page and the County Line e-newsletter.
For all filming activity, the County and/or film production representatives are in regular contact with stakeholders directly impacted.
Elizabeth Gabel casting agency is still accepting applications for paid extras for the scene being filmed on Camp May Road Wed., Aug. 10. Anyone interested in applying to be a paid extra should email a photo with name, height, weight and phone number to egabelcasting (at) gmail.com, and include the year, color and make of their car. Put “Los Alamos” in the subject line.
————————————————————————————-
Though you all would like to read this article about the survivor of the Twisp Fire. He ran and lived. Seems to be doing quite well under very tough circumstances.
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/northwest/out-of-the-flames-of-hell-burned-firefighter-marks-anniversary-of-twisp-blaze/
John… thank you for that link.
First time he’s been photographed without that ‘mask’ he’s had to wear for so long.
But even now… we still have no idea which of the three firefighters who died was driving that engine, or who sent them up Woods Canyon Road to protect EMPTY houses, or who the firefighter was that ordered them to even try to go back down that already compromised escape route.
I also believe this new article is the first time we are hearing that some other firefighter was actually close enough to the accident to SEE Daniel ’emerge from the flames’. If this FF was that close… then what ELSE did he/she SEE that day?
There is NO MENTION of this person in USFS employee John Phipps’s CR(A)P Protocol Accident report for the Twisp fatalities.
The article ENDS with this interesting “we need to STOP with all the HERO shit” quote from Daniel himself…
“Looking back on it, if it were up to me, most of these wildfires, they need to let them burn if lives are at risk,” Lyon says. “Once you lose a firefighter, they ain’t coming back.”
WTKTT,
The CRaP might not have mentioned the FF who helped Lyon to safety, but happily we have Bill Gabbert who tells us the rest of the story:
http://wildfiretoday.com/tag/twisp-river-fire/
“Daniel Lyon Jr., 25, one of four people in Engine 642 assigned to the fire on August 19, left the vehicle after it crashed while the crew was trying to drive to a safety zone through a very active part of the fire. He made his way through flames to a road where he was found by another firefighter. The two of them ran down the road until they found an Emergency Medical Technician Paramedic who provided initial treatment before Mr. Lyon was transported by ground ambulance and then a helicopter to the burn unit in Seattle.”
Sounds like Lyon was far from the truck when the FF found him.
It still seems like ‘news’ that there was ANYONE close enough to ‘the crash’ to have actually SEEN Daniel ’emerge from the flames. If so… wouldn’t it stand to reason that the same person might have seen the crash itself?
WTKTT,
I understand your frustration. I have yet to find any map that shows where the truck finally came to rest, just a description that skid marks were observed at switchback 3 and the truck was found upright and 40 ft below Woods Canyon Road.
The CRaP reads:
“Another firefighter who had escaped the fire blow-up on foot reached “switchback 1.” He heard his name being screamed and someone yelling, “We need help up there! Please, we need help!” As he got closer, he realized the person yelling was one of the crewmembers from Engine 642. He was severely burned, had taken off his yellow shirt, and was no longer wearing a hardhat. Together the two firefighters ran down the road to meet with the engines near the “3-way,” which were staffed by paramedics.”
Looking at the maps from the CRaP, 40 ft below switchback 1 to switchback 3 looks like 250 ft or so. which is along way to run through fire. I assume that the Lyon emerged well above switchback 1 and the other firefighter (who had been running down the hill) turned and ran uphill toward Lyon and that they met somewhere between. I don’t think the other firefighter would have seen the truck run off the road through that much smoke, nor hear it over the roar of the blow-up.
The three way was another 500 ft or so from switchback 1.
I don’t know why these maps are so poorly marked and the description of the fatality site so tortured. It looks like the crappers were more taken with the way the three other survivors saved themselves under the two shelters. That’s the nice thing about CRaP: since we really don’t care what actually happened or why, we can talk about anything we want.
“Looking at the maps from the CRaP, 40 ft below switchback 1 to switchback 3 looks like 250 ft or so. which is along way to run through fire. I assume that the Lyon emerged well above switchback 1…”
Should read:
“Looking at the maps from the CRaP, 40 ft below switchback 3 to switchback 1 looks like 250 ft or so. which is a long way to run through fire. I assume that Lyon emerged well above switchback 1…”
Reply to Muzzy post on August 12, 2016 at 4:16 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> I assume that the Lyon emerged well above
>> switchback 1 and the other firefighter (who had
>> been running down the hill) turned and ran uphill
>> toward Lyon and that they met somewhere between.
That is also exactly how I have always ‘interpreted’ that event as per the CRaP report.
Daniel was coming DOWN Woods Canyon Road ( after having crawled up the embankment from the engine where he suffered his horrible burns ) and crying for help.
Someone who was already FARTHER down Woods Canyon Road ( and also on foot? WHO was this?? ) heard him, came back UP the road to meet Daniel walking DOWN… and then the two of them proceeded back DOWN Woods Canyon Road to the ‘3-way’ intersection where some other Engines were ‘staged’.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> I don’t think the other firefighter would have seen
>> the truck run off the road through that much smoke,
>> nor hear it over the roar of the blow-up.
I agree.
In the scenario supposedly described by the CRaP… there is no way that ‘other’ ( uninjured ) firefighter would have ‘seen’ the crash itself… or would have been able to ‘see’ Daniel ’emerge from the flames’ as he reached the road after crawling up the embankment from the crash.
It is also ‘implied’ in the CRaP report that once Daniel had clawed his way up the embankment ( and through actual flames ) and reached Woods Canyon Road itself… he was no longer ‘in the flames’ at all.
If that had really been the case… he probably wouldn’t still be here.
But the TITLE of the article above is ( of course )… the ‘eye catching’ phrase…
“Out of the flames of hell”
…and that TITLE comes directly from the QUOTES that are in the article about what this ‘other (unknown) firefighter’ had supposedly told Mr. Lyons he SAW that day.
From the article itself…
———————————————-
Daniel Lyon staggered away from the wreck, engulfed in 800-degree flames, and made it back to the road. A fellow firefighter saw him EMERGE from the INFERNO.
“He ( the other firefighter witnessing Daniel EMERGE from the INFERNO ) told me, ‘It looked like God plucked him out of the flames of hell“, recalls Lyon’s father, Daniel Lyon Sr.
———————————————————
Voila… the article TITLE itself.
And it certainly SOUNDS like that ‘other firefighter’ was trying to say he saw Daniel EMERGE from the ‘flames’ themselves’.
So was he REALLY close enough to SEE that… or is this really all just for ‘dramatic effect’ and all he ( that firefighter ) really meant to say is that after he heard Daniel calling for help and he hiked back UP towards him… there simply came a moment when Daniel ’emerged’ from the ‘smoke’… with his shirt and hard-hat already off as he was just walking DOWN the road?
There are 34 ‘comments’ left on that article so far… and things got heated when one commenter called the Seattle Times nothing more than the ‘National Enquirer’, running stories written to simply ‘shock’ people and make them ‘wince’.
One ‘commenter’ then replied…
FuManShoes said…
“I’ve no idea why y’all are so upset at The Times for this article.
Be mad at the fire that scarred this kid, and the POLICIES that led firefighters to be ON THAT ROAD”.
So even in Seattle… the fact is not lost on people that those US Forest Service Wildland Firefighters were actually sent UP that residential ‘Woods Canyon’ road, and ABOVE an uncontained wildfire ( by someone?… WHO?? ), just to protect EMPTY HOUSES.
By the way… even though we are coming up on the one-year anniversary of the Twisp River Fire fatalities… it should be noted that while there is still no word that any of the family members of the 3 deceased firefighters have any intentions of filing any ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit(s)… the State Of Washington differs from other states in that the family members actually have THREE full years from the date of the incident to decide whether to file ‘wrongful death’ actions.
Article Title: Wrongful Death Lawsuits in Washington
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/wrongful-death-lawsuits-washington.html
——————————————————————
What is Wrongful Death ( in the State of Washington )?
A case qualifies under the “wrongful death” statute in the state of Washington when “the death of a person is caused by the wrongful act, neglect, or default of another.”
What is the Time Limit for Filing a Washington Wrongful Death Claim?
A wrongful death claim in Washington must be filed within THREE YEARS of the date of death.
———————————————————–
And the same applies for seriously burned firefighter Daniel Lyon and his life-changing injuries.
While he did not die… the Sate of Washington ( unlike other states ) allows him a full THREE YEARS from the date of an ‘incident’ in which to file a ‘personal injury due to the fault and/or negligence of others’ lawsuit.
So he still has a little more than TWO years to ‘think about’ what really happened to him in that ‘workplace’ that day… and ( perhaps ) have his own “slowly I turned” moment.
Actually… the saddest part of that article was the apparent confirmation that Daniel will never be able to fulfill his dream of becoming a patrol officer.
That was what he had his sights set on becoming and had been training for… before he took that ‘summer job’ with US Forestry and then almost burned to death in that ‘Unified Command’ workplace.
The saddest part? Hmm…that’s a competition. That might be that there will be another 3 or 5 or 19 fatalities, and one or two more severely injured survivors in a year or two or 20, because WE didn’t demand changes in the rules of engagement in the WUI. Because we didn’t take action to demand that developers provide defensible space and building techniques for homes in the WUI. That we don’t demand compensation and insurance for WLFFs so the injured can live on more than 60% of minimum wage until they complete their long recovery.
One of the comments on the article warns about vulnerable survivors being exploited for “inspiration porn” and I certainly don’t want to participate in that. I also don’t want to provide such a windfall to survivors that they see injury as “winning the lottery,” thereby encouraging unsafe behavior. But I do think we can do better in supporting young and inexperienced WLFFs who do their best to follow their flawed leaders.
Just because he ran and survived does not mean the same would have occurred at Yarnell…
Different fuel composition and Fire behaviour…
Rocksteady,
I’m not sure who suggested that some of the 19 could have survived by escaping the fire. My point is now and has always been that neither the engine 642 nor the GM crew should have been where they were in the first place. No FF should be put at risk for empty buildings, whether they are deemed defensible or not.
I am deeply troubled that young people making barely minimum wage are sent in to protect empty homes which are in many cases the second homes of people considerably more wealthy than those who send their sons.
WLFFing should be about forest management. We need to rewrite the rules of engagement to acknowledge the reality that wildland fires are corralled and not extinguished.
If structural departments want to commit to structure preservation in the WUI, they should demand codes and regulations to assure that roads all have outlets, that structures are at least defensible, and that infrastructure is designed to make streets accessible and maneuverable by equipment. Yes I know that this will drive up costs, but people who want to live in “nature” need to take the risks that that requires, not pass them on to young men from somewhere else who just need some bucks to finish school.
There was discussion in the past saying GMIHS should have “dropped pack and ran”… It may have helped…. Then with the title up above about how Lyon survived but the 3 others did not, I figured someone would use Lyon as an example of how Firefighters should react when entrapped.
He may be right….. BUT I was just pointing out that it should not be a standard rule….
I agree with everything you say in that post Muzzy…. We should not be killing people (regardless of age or pay grade) to protect trees, shrubs, or even empty houses..
Frobsteady paused the Red Green show on his TVR, combed his mullet, cracked open another Molson Golden and graced us with his undeniable wisdom when he said:
” I figured someone would use Lyon as an example of how Firefighters should react when entrapped. ”
OK, great white northern hockey man, tell us more. How should firefighters react when entrapped? Clearly they shouldn’t run because, among other tragic possible scenarios, they might trip on their snowshoes or spring a blade on their skates; what should they do?
Thanks in advance, friend of the North.
Woodsman
C’mon…Woodsman, I have seen that show a few times in my life, it is a HOOT! I think all Canadians are SOOOOO nice!
I know however…. that that ole boy would NOT lay down and DIE when he could run and maybe live. He has always seemed way to smart for that.
Gary,
I too believe in my heart that the national panic body position in the nortland O’ Canadia cannot possibly be the fetal…with a binkie. It can’t be! Youbetcha THEY RUN, Dontchaknow.
“I am a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess.” Red Green
”
“[Red enters the lodge, feeling depressed]
Red Green: Harold, if the people of this community ever find out what we did in that parking lot to that cow, I will never be able to hold my head up high again.
Harold Green: You actually did it, Uncle Red? You did that whole “Texas Chainsaw Massacre” thing to that poor little defenseless milk-maker?
Red Green: We chickened out, Harold, every last one of us. There wasn’t one guy who could look into those big brown eyes and nail her with a sledgehammer. Guys were sobbing and they got misty-eyed. At one point, Moose Thompson asked the cow to marry him. This is a dark day for the image of Possum Lodge.
Harold Green: Well, I for one am very proud of you, Uncle Red.
Red Green: Don’t make it worse, Harold. I don’t know how many vegetarians there are in this country, but I bet most of them work in slaughter houses. Eating meat is like having kids: the less you know about it, the more likely you are to go ahead.
Harold Green: Well, I hope you apologize to the cow, because she’s had a very stressful day.
Red Green: Oh, you can tell that by the back seat of Stinky’s Cadillac.” Red Green
Woodsman
” Q: What was the original title for “Canadian Idol”?
A: “The Worlds Biggest Hoser”
Q: What do Canadians get on their tests?
A: Eh’s
Q: Why don’t Canadian women wear sleeveless dresses?
A: They aren’t allowed to bare arms
Youbetcha!
Ya…sure…you betcha!
Us Canuckians to the North DO NOT PACK shelters…..
Therefore, we do not need to run from fires, as we practice situational awareness and avoidance of potential fire entrapment situations.
When you feel vulnerable to start with, NO “Ultimate Survival Shelter” on your hip, you learn where not to be when fires get snappy…
In the world of climate change, the way to fight wildfires is to “BACK OFF AND BURN OFF”….
That is my own personal mantra… I would not say its copyrighted, but pretty close 🙂
Safety is number 1 in Canada… It is blatantly explained to the general public that the WFF WILL NOT go into situations to protect structures, that what fire departments do…. We will not risk the lives of our unprotected workers (NOMEX, not SCBA) to save your possessions and structures… Hope you got insurance…. And none of us are willing to die to save some crappy frigging trees….
Its actually a pretty easy system to follow…
Eric Marsha cell phone-
If a Prescott firefighter gave Amanda marsh Eric’s cell phone a few weeks after the fire– where was the phone from the time it left chain of evidence until then?
Reply to Diane lomas post on
August 15, 2016 at 9:37 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Eric Marsha cell phone-
>> If a Prescott firefighter gave Amanda marsh
>> Eric’s cell phone a few weeks after the fire–
>> where was the phone from the time it left
>> chain of evidence until then?
Good question.
There is still no answer to that question.
It would APPEAR that whoever took it from the Medical Examiner’s office ( along with Eric’s compass and signal mirror also recovered from his shirt pocket during autopsy ) wanted it to stay ‘hidden’ until AFTER all of the official ‘reports’ came out.
Amanda Marsh still hasn’t said exactly WHEN those 3 items that were taken from the Medical Examiner’s office ( Eric’s phone, signal mirror and compass ) were actually returned to her ( all at the same time ) in that ‘secret’ meeting on the Prescott Courthouse square.
My best GUESS ( and it is only a GUESS ) as to WHO that ‘Prescott Firefighter’ was that was ‘returning’ those items to her in that ‘secret’ meeting would still be this guy named J.P. Vicente.
He’s the Prescott Firefighter that was ready to retire with his ‘full package’ from Prescott Fire Department… but was asked ( and agreed ) to ‘stay on’ and become the ‘Family Liason’ for the Yarnell Tragedy.
This is the same guy who organized and ran all the ‘Honor Guards’ for the bodies of the Granite Mountain Hotshots… including the constant ‘Honor Guards’ that were there 24×7 at the Maricopa County Medical Examiner’s office before / during / and after the autopsies.
He’s also the same guy who would end up having the POLICE called on him by the Superintendent of the Prescott Pioneer Cemetery where that ‘GM memorial’ is.
It is contructed to look like that is where ALL the GM Hotshots are buried… but nothing could be further from the truth. Only about HALF of the GM Hotshots are ACTUALLY ‘buried’ there at that Prescott Pioneer Cemetery.
Followup…forgot to mention TWO things…
This J.P. Vicente guy, along with some other guy named Ray Maione who was also designated as ‘Family Liason’ for the Yarnell Tragedy, are the same two guys that the ‘Family Members’ who were to attend the court-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day did NOT want at that ‘meeting’.
Arizona Forestry emails regarding this court-mandated ‘Q/A meeting’ that were obtained via legal and valid Arizona Open Records requests ( by InvestigativeMEDIA ) show the attorneys for the ‘Family Members’ telling Arizona Forestry to make SURE that these ‘Family Liason’ guys ( Vicente and Maione ) would NOT be in attendance at that Q/A meeting held back on February 5, 2016.
The ‘Family Members’ didn’t even want to be in the same room with them.
So there has always been some kind of ‘story’ there about some kind of ‘bad blood’ that seems to have developed between the ‘Family Members’ of the deceased Hotshots and the very two representatives of the Prescott Fire Department who were supposed to be ‘helping’ them.
Also… I just wanted to point out once again that it wasn’t just Eric Marsh’s cellphone that ‘disappeared’ from the Medical Examiner’s office on the day of Eric Marsh’s autopsy ( July 2, 2013 ).
The autopsy report clearly states that the following THREE items were sitting right there in Eric Marsh’s shirt pocket at the start of his autopsy…
1. His cellphone.
2. His compass
3. His signal mirror.
SIDENOTE: Eric Marsh ALWAYS carried his compass in his shirt pocket with a ‘cord’ coming out of the pocket and threaded through one of his shirt buttons. An interview with Amanda Marsh said he was actually ‘superstitious’ and would always do things like this every time he got dressed for a fire.
The autopsy report also states clearly that ALL THREE of these items being recovered specifically from Eric’s shirt pocket were ‘bagged up’ ( together ) and labelled as to where they were found.
So it is actually THAT entire ‘bag’ that then suddenly ‘walked out’ of the Medical Examiner’s office… and NONE of those ‘items’ ever entered the possession of the YCSO detectives… who were also present at the Maricopa County Medical Examiner’s office for the specific purpose of COLLECTING cellphones and other evidence.
And then these THREE items that were supposedly ‘bagged up’ together were then the SAME THREE items that Amanda Marsh reports being returned to her in that ‘secret’ meeting on the Prescott County Courthouse square.
One more followup…
So whoever had all THREE of those items in their possession… and NEVER allowed them to enter the ‘chain of evidence’… knew perfectly well the whole time they had these things that they belonged to Eric Marsh.
When the time came that they then felt ‘safe’ in returning the items… they knew EXACTLY who to arrange this ‘secret meeting’ with in order to give her ( Amanda Marsh ) these THREE items.
Reply to Diane lomas post on August 11, 2016 at 11:02 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> I assume that we have all information from ACTIC
>> (Arizona Counter Terrorism information Center).
No.
There is a lot of evidence and documentation in the ‘public’ record regarding the original ‘request’ from YCSO to ACTIC to retrieve data from the cell/smartphones that YCSO could not retrieve themselves with their own ‘Cellebrite’ data extraction software…
…but despite many valid FOIA requests… there has NEVER been anything which documents the RESULTS of ACTIC’s efforts.
This is disturbing.
**
** WHEN THE BIG HAND IS ON THE ??
** AND THE LITTLE HAND IS ON THE ??
>> On August 9, 2016 at 8:22 pm, Diane Lomas asked…
>>
>> Was it impossible to determine a time of death?
>> On August 10, 2016 at 5:53 am, Muzzy replied…
>>
>> Diane,
>>
>> Time of death estimates used in forensics depend on body
>> characteristics that are dependent on temperature, either
>> directly, as in liver temperature, or indirectly, as in extent
>> of rigor. As the time since death gets longer, or when ambient
>> temperature is variable or indeterminate, these signs will be
>> less useful. In any case, they are just estimates.
Muzzy is absolutely correct.
Determining exact ‘time of death’ via just ‘foresenic’ methods is very, very difficult, even under normal conditions.
When the death is a result of thermal ( burn ) injuries… it’s even harder.
I won’t use the word ‘impossible’… because… well… that’s a pretty hard word to use given the state of forensic science these days and the new tools and methods and tests available… but we are certainly talking about a HUGE ( and yes… very EXPENSIVE ) effort that has to be ‘justified’ by any Medical Examiner.
The Medical Examiners were being given an ‘approximate’ ‘Time of Death’ by the YCSO detectives themselves… and unless there was some overriding and/or compelling reason to ‘doubt’ that ‘approximation’ ( based on other non-forensic evidence ), or without being specifically REQUESTED by the detectives themselves to make a ‘maximum effort’ to determine exact ‘Time of Death’… it would have been hard for the Maricopa County Medical Examiner to have justified spending all the money that would have been needed ( out of their budget ) for that ‘maximum effort’.
There are absolutely no references and/or indications of actual “Time of Death” found in ANY of the 19 autopsy reports for the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
If there WAS any forensic-based attempt to ascertain that for ANY of the 19 deceased Hotshots, it was never mentioned in any of the 19 autopsy reports.
All that being said…
There WAS ( and perhaps still is ) an even BETTER way to determine exact ‘Time of Death’ that had nothing to do with ‘forensic methods’.
The autopsy reports themselves reveal that at least 7 ( SEVEN ) of the Granite Mountain Hotshots were wearing ‘wristwatches’ when they died.. and other testimony adds at least 1 more wristwatch to that tally.
That means that close to HALF of the men who died WERE wearing ‘wristwatches’.
All of the following ‘entries’ regarding ‘watches’ are found in the ‘CLOTHING AND PERSONAL EFFECTS’ part of each autopsy report, and the Medical Examiners also did a pretty good job recording the ‘make/model’ of each ‘wristwatch’ they were finding…
————————————————————————————-
* Christopher Alan Peebles MacKenzie
A wristwatch brand Suunto Core.
* Clayton Whitted
A Casio G shock brand watch.
* Garret Joseph Zuppiger
A black “Casio” watch is on the left wrist.
* Jesse James Steed
A partially melted watch is found inside the shelter.
NOTE: Even though no ‘brand’ name is given… Steed’s wristwatch is actually clearly seen in Christopher MacKenzie cellphone photo IMG_2734.JPG, and it clearly only had an ‘LCD’ display screen and no ‘hour / minute / second’ hands.
* Robert E. Caldwell
A black “Free Style” watch around the left wrist,
* Scott Daniel Norris
Encircling the left wrist is a black Timex wrist watch, which appears to be still functioning.
* Sean Misner
Remnants of a black plastic watch fused with a yellow shirt fragment
Watch brand is Armitron All Sport Model.
Other ‘known’ wristwatch ‘wearers’…
* Andrew Ashcraft – His wife received watch band but not his wristwatch itself.
———————————————————————————————–
NOTICE that in the case of Scott Norris… if the ‘wrist watch’ still appeared to be ‘functioning’ the Medical Examiner made a note of that. This could possibly be construed to mean that if no such similar note was made for the OTHER ‘wrist watches’ being found on the other men… that they had most likely ‘stopped’ functioning.
Here’s another ‘list’ of the 7 ( SEVEN ) ‘wrist watches’ recovered just during the autopsies… and whether or not they were likely to have had ‘hour / minute / second’ hands showing the TIME…
** ANALOG – Watch face DOES have hour / minute / second hands.
** DIGITIAL – Battery driven with an LCD display. No hour / minute / second hands.
** ANALOG / DIGITAL means the watch is digitally driven… but DOES have
an ‘ANALOG’ display with hour / minute / second hands.
* Christopher MacKenzie – Suunto Core – Most ‘Suunto’ watches are just DIGITAL.
* Clayton Whitted – Casio G shock brand – Most likely ANALOG or ANALOG / DIGITAL
* Garret Joseph Zuppiger – Black “Casio” – Most likely ANALOG or ANALOG / DIGITAL
* Jesse James Steed – A partially melted watch is found inside the shelter. It was DIGITAL.
* Robert E. Caldwell – Black “Free Style” watch – Most likely ANALOG / DIGITAL
* Scott Daniel Norris – Black Timex ( still functioning ) – Most likely ANALOG or ANALOG / DIGITAL.
* Sean Misner – Armitron All Sport Model – Most ‘Armitron All Sport’ watches are just DIGITAL.
Other ‘known’ wristwatch ‘wearers’…
* Andrew Ashcraft – His wife received his wristwatch band back but not his wristwatch itself.
The YCSO evidence report indicates at least one ‘wristwatch’ was found ‘loose’ outside of the shelters at the deployment site… and it was entered into evidence. This could still be the actual ‘wristwatch’ that belonged to Andrew Ashcraft, which then never made it back to his wife.
So… if even just ONE of these EIGHT ‘wristwatches’ happened to have an ANALOG display ( with an hour / minute / second hand )… and it was STOPPED at a certain TIME on or about when the men were known to have died… that one wristwatch alone could be a strong indicator of just about EXACTLY when they ALL expired.
But there is nothing in any Medical Examiner or Police report that says anyone even bothered to ‘check’ this.
They were just ‘accepting’ a ‘Time of Death’ of right around 4:43 PM for the death certificates and just didn’t bother trying to even VERIFY it.
It’s also perfectly possible that all of the various ‘smartphones’ and ‘cameras’ that were recovered from the deployment site and the pockets of the expired men could have revealed an accurate ‘Time of Death’ as well… but for the same reasons stated above… it appears no ‘investigator’ even took the time to research that.
Followup…
** WRISTWATCHES
Hardly anyone actually ‘wears’ an old totally-analog wind-up style wristwatch anymore, and the list of ‘watch brands’ as detailed by the Medical Examiners report proves that was certainly the case with the Granite Mountain Hotshots… but SOME of those ‘brands’ ARE known to have the classic style ANALOG display ‘dial’ with ‘hour / minute / second’ hands.
So even if digitally powered… at the moment the battery leads might have melted or other thermal-related failure… the ‘watch hands’ WOULD have very likely been ‘frozen in place’ at the exact hour, minute ( and even second ) when that happened.
That, of course, still doesn’t automatically mean it represents the exact hour / minute / second when the wearer of the wristwatch might have also expired… but I would say its a pretty safe bet it’s pretty close. Probably no more than ‘plus’ or ‘minus’ 60 seconds either way.
** OTHER DEVICES
Most modern smartphones these days have circuitry specifically designed to detect ‘battery overheating’ and it will ‘kick in’ and automatically POWER OFF the phone if/when it detects that battery or the accompanying power circuitry is ‘overheating’.
What ALSO happens ( if that ‘overheating detection’ kicks in ) is that LOG ENTRIES are also made into the Operating System’s ERROR logs, together with exact timestamp information… as is the case for ALL ‘System Log’ entries.
So if any of the ‘smartphones’ that were recovered actually did anything like this… there WOULD be ‘System Log Entries’ to that effect.
The YCSO detectives WERE able to use a software product called ‘Cellebrite’ to extract data off SOME of the ‘smartphones’ recovered from the deployment site… without even having to send THOSE phones to ACTIC ( Arizona Counter Terrorism Information Center ).
The ‘System Logs’ that would contain any/all ‘Overheating’ System Log Entries ARE part of the ‘data’ that would have automatically been ‘extracted’ from those phones using the ‘Cellebrite’ software.
And that’s just for starters.
There would be OTHER ways to tell when the ‘smartphone’ might have ‘ceased to function’ as well… if the ‘data logs’ remained intact even after bad things happened to the device.
** THE BOOKS
In all THREE of the books that have been published ( so far, anyway ), there is only ONE reference to any of the Hotshots wearing a ‘wristwatch’.
From page 32 of “The Fire Line” – By Fernanda Santos.
————————————————————————
Whenever the Hotshots hiked, ( Squad leaders ) Whitted and Caldwell walked last, making sure no one straggled behind. They each had a right-hand man, lead crew members who marked the fire lines the squads would cut, branding branches with color-coded tape along the way. For Whitted, it was Chris MacKenzie, who wore a big calculator wristwatch and got ribbed for it.
————————————————————————
** MACKENZIE PHOTOS SHOWING ‘WRISTWATCHES’…
The following photo from Christopher MacKenzie’s smartphone happens to CLEARLY show at least THREE ‘wristwatches’ all at once.
Filename: IMG_2734.JPG
Folder: SAIT Dropbox / Photos and Videos / Christopher MacKenzie cell phone photos
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACBq97DC_WBHNu7MeMwj7TOa/Photos%20and%20Video/Christopher%20MacKenzie%20cell%20phone%20photos?dl=0
Foreground – right side: What appears to be Christopher MacKenzie’s own ‘Suunto Core’ large ‘calculator-size’ DIGITAL wristwatch on his LEFT wrist. This photo has always also appeared to be ‘proof’ that while Christopher MacKenzie was working with his other ‘Canon’ digital camera… he gave his ‘smartphone’ to whoever was standing right next to him ( to his left ) and THAT person was the one taking photos with his smartphone at that same moment Christopher was using his own ‘Canon’ digital camera.
Middle ground – center: A CLEAR view of the wristwatch on Jesse Steed’s RIGHT wrist. Jesse is the one sitting there on that rock ( with his back to the camera ). His entire forearm ( and his wristwatch ) are ‘exposed’ to the camera. If you ZOOM IN on that actual ‘wrist watch’ that Jesse Steed was actually wearing that day… it is clear that it only had an LCD display screen and not an ‘ANALOG’ display face ( with hour / minute / second hands ).
It was in ‘power saver’ mode and there was no actual ‘time’ showing on the LCD at the moment the photo was taken.
Background – center: That is Robert Caldwell actually in the process of shooting his ‘video’, at exactly 3:50:08 PM, that would capture OPS1 Todd Abel talking to Eric Marsh and telling him “Keep me informed… you guys hunker and be safe… we’ll get some air support down there ASAP”. Caldwell is clearly seen wearing that Black ‘Free Style wristwatch’ there on his LEFT wrist as his arms are raised and he is actually in the process of shooting his 3:50:08 PM video.
WTKTT,
The time the watches stopped is probably more an indication of the outer limit of survivability of the watch, depending on the position of the watch, it’s materials, etc. Some might have still been ticking when they were recovered. Analog watches that are smashed by the same trauma that befell the victim can be useful if we can be sure the watch was really stopped when it was smashed, and we know it was set correctly to begin with, and we can be sure the victim could not have survived the event. But after all, the margin of error will likely be minutes to tens of minutes, so the radio transmissions are still the best indicator of how long the men survived.
Well… yes… any ‘evidence’ regarding the watches would be like anything else and it would have to be ‘evaluated’.
Best case scenario would be if at least TWO ( maybe even THREE? ) of the watches and/or devices had known ‘stop’ times that are almost identical.
It would remain possible that the owner of the device(s) might have expired BEFORE or AFTER that ‘fail point’… but I still think that would be in the plus or minus one ( perhaps two ) minute range.
Some of the devices did NOT fail… and that means something as well.
YCSO technicians WERE able to just ‘power on’ some of those devices and used the ‘Cellebrite’ software right away.
But there still MIGHT be ‘battery overheating’ warnings with timestamps that would tell us more about WHEN the temperatures at that deployment site truly did become ‘not survivable’.
It still astounds me that no better effort was made by any of the investigators to try and really ‘nail down’ the EXACT ‘Time of Death’ for any of the deceased.
Someone just ‘told’ them about when they thought that might have happened and they just went “Okay… if you say so”.
Not just time, but also the sequence of events; who never took a breath of sooty air, how did their lack of gloves affect the shelter positions? I might be able to guess, but I don’t know until I see the evidence. I’m really frustrated and I’m not a trained WLFF investigator. How must those guys feel?
I ascribe some of this to the “inbred” relationships among LE, coroner, FFs and others. It’s hard to deal with death anyway, then if it’s a member of the “family”, even distant, it’s even worse. The deaths of the 19 were hard on first responders everywhere.
I also think many of those involved were unaware of how much information could be gleaned from the incinerated fatality site, before they disturbed it. And then, in the aftermath, they and the families seem to have decided to let sleeping dogs lie.
Fire suppression is paid for with federal dollars, so there should be a professional, and national, agency to investigate firefighter deaths, including the aerial ones, which are also given short shrift. Most such deaths are not entrapments, but traffic accidents, falls and other more obvious events. Most of those probably involve human factors, but we know the FS wants to ignore that.
It should also be a federal offense to disturb or destroy fire death evidence. Americans thought very poorly about Russians and Ukranians picking through airline crash evidence in the downing of Malaysia Airlines, but here in the great US of A, cell phone evidence can be stolen and destroyed by pals for their own reasons. Shameful.
I so agree!!
At this point in time is there any way to determine time of death for the granite mountain hotshots or confirm radio transmissions after deployment?
I assume that we have all information from ACTIC
(Arizona Counter Terrorism information Center).
Well…I think everyone are asking themselves the very same questions. Did Gary have a nice time down in the dunes? [Yes…I did thank you]. And…what does Gary think about slurry, slurry bombers and those who fly slurry bombers? And please keep in mind my perspective is from that of a low level grunt.
1. Slurry rarely landed where I thought it needed to be, in fact, I don’t recall ever being on a fire and saying to myself, “Wow, it was really a good thing that slurry bomber was here today helping us on this fire or things would have been bad!”
2. I think they over used and are basically a welfare program for slurry bomber companies who have a very strong lobby in Washington and a way to employ pilots who have a death wish and therefore are unemployable elsewhere flying airplanes.
3. Slurry bombers are almost all (or at least they used to be) converted military bombers and are essentially flying coffins looking for a place to crash. Their pilots take FEARLESS to another whole level of Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY!
4. Any wildland firefighter who bets his or her life on a slurry bomber pilot hitting what they are aiming at…have a bigger death wish than the slurry bomber pilots. That is not say they, both the Granite Mountain Hotshots and the Yarnell Hill Fire overhead, did not try that very thing…it just means they shouldn’t have if they did. The odds of that plan working were so low they would have been better off quitting their jobs, walking of the fire line and going to the nearest convenience store to buy a Powerball lottery ticket planning on hitting it big.
But most of all, this is a chance to show off my slurry bomber photo collection. Please pay particularly close attention to the first photo on the left hand side of the screen. It is a photo I took of a Happy Jack Hotshot standing on a fire on the edge of the Grand Canyon. Can you see what is over his right shoulder? Yes…that is the tail of a slurry bomber! OMG!
Also…please note photos, 2, 3, and 4 going from left to right and back again. Those are photos I took of a slurry bomber flying right over the heads (way to low) of the Happy Jack Hotshots trying to drop but then trying to come around again as he exploded into a huge fireball right in front of my eyes. It took my brain a few seconds to process what I had just witnessed and then I took a third photo of the his smoke plume.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
Oh…and one more thing. The air tanker flew over us going more than 140 mph and lost his engine a few seconds later while banking to make his turn to come back. What if he had lost his engine a few seconds earlier? He would have killed most, if not all of the Happy Jack Hotshots, which would have been a real bummer.
And while I am at it, I will reaffirm that WTKTT is absolutely right, French and Burfiend are f*ckups and Fred and Bob are still apologists that I am ashamed of.
And Fred…I read your response below. I think the word you were searching for is just “LIBEL” since this is in a written format. I am working up to a response to you, but I have to pace myself.
Gary,
Re: “Well…I think everyone are asking themselves the very same questions. Did Gary have a nice time down in the dunes?”
Actually, I was more concerned about whether you survived and the extent of injuries to yourself and your equipment. But sure, I hope you had a good time. I myself was enjoying the NFs all you FFs have been preserving all these years, so, thanks!
No,..there were a couple of messes that I helped clean up, but I did not make any myself because like I told you…I have been broke of suckin’ eggs. I am not THAT GUY any more…Safety First!
And yes, the older I get the more I enjoy our nations Crown Jewels as well…our National Parks, in addition to our wonderful National Forests and even the vast open spaces of our Public Lands managed by the BLM, much of which only the Great Creator and the BLM could possibly love…LOL.
I have even come to understand that the only tree good tree is NOT on the back of a logging truck. And…your welcome, as I have said many times, it was an E Ticket Ride that I really enjoyed now that I have forgotten, or can gloss over all of the bad parts!
Oh…and one more thing. Here is a very short video that is easy to watch because it is only a few seconds long showing me and another guy cathin’ some air, which was NOT an easy thing to do since he is about my size!
https://youtu.be/s_E_SmJ4vJU
This is just one example of how much FUN our National Recreation Areas can be!
I forgot to use the ONE word I would use to describe the use of slurry on wildfires…”OVERRATED.”
And…the reason I said my entire perspective was from the fire line as a grunt, is because I was trying to point out there MAY be benefits to using slurry I never saw from my place in the command structure.
As I have said before, I was really only interested in our piece of the fire line and I could never see or even cared what was happening in the BIG picture or from several hundred feet up in the air on other areas of the fire.
So…maybe there were/are benefits of the EXTENSIVE use of slurry in fighting wildfires…I just don’t know about them and I never really saw any from where I was working.
I only know that slurry really stinks, made my fire clothes very stiff and even more uncomfortable to wear after I was hit with it and it dried. I learned the BEST way to avoid getting hit by slurry was to quickly step behind a big tree, which they don’t teach you to do, but it works really well.
I guess the reason they don’t teach that is it would look really funny and probably be dangerous for 20 guys to all be running around looking for the biggest tree to stand behind. Also…there aren’t always big trees to stand behind…which is problematic.
I disagree Gary….
Retardant, when applied properly by AA on appropriate fuels, does help to reduce fire intensity, allowing ground crews etc to get in closer to the fires edge and do some good work…
On the other hand, I also agree that sometimes it is done as a “political” photo op, showing the general public that “everything is being thrown at the fire”…. even though everyone knows that it aint doing shit…
Once a fire reaches a certain intensity and rate of spread, its a “lawn chair” fire… Pull out a lawn chair, sit in the shade of your truck, crack a cold water and hope your batteries don’t die on your digital camera (and an extra memory card does not hurt either)…. Cause you are in for a show…
Its I up to Ma Nature to decide when this fire will be stopped…. or lessened to the point that human interference will make a difference..
Well…I did say my perspective was completely from the ground level and preferably from behind a big tree.
Gary, we did witness the early slurry drop on that Sunday morning of June 30, 2013. In fact we were not very far from the fire edge when it was still in the boulders where Marsh could cross it at will. The air plane that dropped the retardant dropped it high, I suppose due to air currents over the Weaver’s. I thought what a waste–it did not land anywhere near where you thought it should have been dropped and was so thin by the time it hit ground that it would have been useless. If it did not have the extra chemicals and clay, it would have been better dropped on a farmer’s field.
That drop made me think these fellows were not seriously trying to stop that fire–and when we saw some fanning of the fire I told Joy that they were wanting to burn off the manzanita brush to help the rancher and so deer and cattle could once again get through the brush. Well, once it went ballistice, then I wondered what actually was going on. Were the 320 acres that eventually given to the Widows because it contained the death spot of the GMHS? Did the FS restrict that exact 320 acres on June 16, 2013 because they had planned a burn in that overly dense area? One thing was certain, no one was in a hurry to get that fire out.
I looked at the Tenderfoot fire. That back burn went ape shit and burned the electrical system and was very unlike the Yarnell Hill Fire that killed the GMHS crew. Strange thing on the Tenderfoot fire it did cause a need for air strikes of retardant on the east side of Yarnell–but even that retardant line and a constant eastwardly wind did not keep their backburn from crossing back toward Yarnell. On the north east end it was blatantly obvious where it burned through a wide line of retardant.
To my notion, I wondered why a burn was even started on the east side of town. Weather conditions were such that the wind was at all reasonable estimates to continue to the east and that fire would have had a hard time backing over from the south east slope of that mountain to Yarnell. But just as Gary said, there was a bundle of tax money laid out for retardant, and add to that plenty of extra fire fighters did benefit. We met one guy all the way from Las Cruces. He was a most amicable fellow–full gear and all smoked and charred up from building line on the south slope of the mountain. Fortunately for him, the south and east slope did not have the manzanita and dense growth in the area he was located–but I felt for the guy on that hot day decked out as he was. I must admit, I rather be behind a jack leg 900 ft. underground than out there in the middle of a high desert on an early June day in Arizona.
Well…as you know Sonny, I am a pretty harsh critic of government managers, agencies and the wildfire program at the higher levels where decisions like you are suggesting would be made, and I have never even caught a whiff of anything like that at any time, anywhere, or by anybody.
Lots of competing agendas come into play when deciding how to fight or not fight a wildfire, but helping a rancher or pretending to fight a fire while letting it get away or fanning the flame with rotor wash…things like that, same thing, never even heard a hint of it and I don’t think there is much I don’t know about how land management agencies in particular and the government in general operates at this point in my life.
But…I do appreciate you cynicism and natural suspicion, that is always a good thing to have when dealing with the powers that be who want to protect the status quo. And remember, just because we are paranoid….does not mean they are not out to get us.
Ok Gary–the fanning was just because they were observing the fire in that yellow and white copter. I realize they had to take a close look at it while it was in the boulders. My thoughts and talk to Joy that day were my own The fanning after all probably had nothing to do with the fire going ballistic. See I had hiked that canyon above the grader and it was intense manzanita–so once it got into that brush whether they fanned it or not really made no difference. Dr. Ted once wondered why they stopped the line they were cutting so short. Once I told him about the canyon above the old grader he told me he now understood why they had to stop cutting line. Right where they stopped was about where the intense brush of that canyon started. No way to cut in front of a fire coming down in that type of brush with winds pushing it toward Peeples Valley. The copters would have known that and relayed that to Marsh. I knew it because we had been up that canyon toward that old gold mine several hikes. But then once it got past down the mountain and into the flats there was no stopping anything–all hell broke loose as Joy and I watched and she photographed the action. By 11:30am, the fireworks were on and Jesus himself would have said let the big dog eat. What devil possessed Marsh to risk his men in that situation only God himself knows. But God himself is not at fault for taking those lives.
I am amazed at how people want to deny the facts, even after all that is now known.
Yes we were warned by the CIA guy Charley Mosley. Charlie said we ought to be careful in what we say even if it is the truth. He ought to know being in that profession. But by now my estimates are nil–who really counts are people like yourself (Gary Olson) and others that are real fire fighters. After all what does an old miner know about fire fighting. I know how to put out a lightening strike, but when it comes to a wild fire you saw me retreat over the mountain. I estimated that even an army company or two (300-600) men would have no effect on what I was viewing. I think I was right since all those 230,000 gallons of retardants and numerous fire fighting companies including the local Yarnell fire department could not save a damn thing–well maybe a few houses by some fire men, but half Yarnell burned but I think they did save Phil’s place with some foam.
I am not too worried about what I think. I do know that people on IM are not too popular since they are not bashful with the truth. But then you are a few states away, and here I am right in the middle of the mess. I did see it, and do know it, but then when people like Dr. Ted Putnam, Norb, Provencio, RTS, Gary Olsen, Bob Powers, John Daugherty and others of high credentials know it was a powerful fuck up, what are they going to shoot me and not those that know their onions?
What I think is that most of the others that are quiet are glad that IM and the ones on here are exposing the truth–well with the exception of a few cronies, but even they must suffer some guilt for the death of those men.
I won’t forget Charlie Mosely–a real hero CIA fellow. He applauded IM and gave us a thumbs up for standing up for the truth. He would not hike–retired and with heart problems was afraid to make the trip. He has passed since but at the time wanted us to come to his home and stay a while. That was a great invitation that we did not do–I think it was the Ozarks–might have been a good trip. I might follow him since I too have heart problems now–damn these six stents–one for each wife–I had six of those too–heart breakers they can be. But I will continue to hike. In fact once out of that hospice thing, I did make a hike with Norb and before to see if the doctors did me any good. Well I made them all back alive so I recon that the new heart procedures are fairly good. A couple days ago they ran that catheter up to my heart to see if things are OK–they think so and these chest pains are due to little arteries being plugged they say. McDonalds, does a good job with cheap and quick burgers, but the cost on your arteries is heavy.
We do have a very important investigator coming–I think he might have some inside info on the hidden chemicals 6-18% in all this lung killing agent orange retardant. If you take ten percent of 230,000 gallons then you have 23,000 gallons of unknown chemicals dropped on our Glen Isla and Yarnell back yards. Well note that over 90 deaths since the Yarnell fire out of 645 residents. Wouldn’t you think the “EPA or WHO would stand up and take notice. Well the Zinka Virus has them too busy with maybe ten deaths in the USA.
I forgot to say Charlie Mosely was a smoke jumper before CIA–friend of Dr. Ted Putnam, another smoke jumper before the Dr. title. I wondered if Cooper, was not a rogue smoke jumper–you need some nerve to jump out of a plane like that. I should have asked Charlie if he knew anything about that caper.
Gary, Bull rider Chuck–owner of the Arrowhead bar, just broke 10 ribs with ruptured spleen and is now laying in the Phoenix hospital after ATV accident. Bull riding is safer than ATV riding. Seems like cause I sold mine once I ran into too many Joshua trees. I am a dirt bike rider, much safer and maybe even fire fighting if you have a Marsh or Steed in charge-do not forget they had orders from headquarters.
Here is live, I just visited quadriplegic Brent born on my same birthday–God fucked him pretty bad according to the way the Willis people think– but why not Sonny? They think mine will come later even though Jesus and I have been drunk together. Well I have been drunk with the devil as well. See the world is full of bull shitters and Jesus or the Devil dislikes those people. Even my favorite Irish Gods hate these fucking pretenders. Come on boys, ye that know the truth or y0u have all the Good and bad Gods after your asses.
Is that scary–to me no. You have both my and Joy’s testimony. Simple, yes, but that is the way we saw it and the truth. Now battle your own demons–the game will eat you up playing a lie.
Is this life about truth? Damn rights it is. You might screw people over, you might increase your bank account by a million but when Satan and Jesus come knocking your ass is grass. Well maybe with Allah you have 70 or so virgins waiting. Shit one is enough what does Allah think 69 will make a difference? Maybe to lechers.
I like Catholics–especially priests with red hats and socks matching. The last one I got holy water from and sprinkled that water on the sheets of a guy posessed by a demon (he told me he was), the sheets actually sizzled. Believe it or not I do not care, but something I witnessed.
It is not about whether or not Marsh or Steed and whoever ordered them to drop their men into that deadly no escape canyon with a raging fire about to change direction==the did.. It is about telling the truth of what happened so that it does not occur again. Simple mathematics==shit you learn in the first and second grade. What did those bosses not know?
I am so happy, too many boy with elite fire fighting credentials never challenge me except to say as one said I ought to be more respectful to Donut and Marsh. Shit, Marsh killed his 18, Donut is a fellow that was barely saved by a Blue Ridge commander and is only alive despite his disdain of the sensible rules of wild land fire fighting. But some of you with agendas want to skirt the truth.
It is safer being the pilot of a retardant plane than being a recipient of his drop Consider that more than 90 are dead after the big retardant drops in our back yard, No memorial or setting aside of 320 acres for these souls.
It is tough burning to death, but have you ever had a heart attack? I think the deaths are close because I have both had my leg burned to the bone and a heart attack. Both are excruciating pain–in fact when the copter was taking me to the hospital on the heart attack I was wishing they would push me out so I could find a sudden death.
It is a tough world, may the Irish Gods bless you if you are a decent person. If you are an atheist may my good Irish gods bless you more because you are likely more honest than most Christian blokes I have dealt with. But Jesus was no piker. I am suspect of Allah–be careful if Mecca becomes a nuclear parking lot, not my fault or will I give a shit.
The 19 died, today a guy with 19 on his shit begged there at Home Depo in Scottsdale for a buck. He got the dollar–my daughter paid it, but I was reaching for it too; We remember those deaths, but we do not want it repeated.
A little static for the Air Tanker discussion.
Air Tanker Crashes 2000 to 2015—- ELVEN (11) ON FIRES.
Aircraft Fire related 1960 to 2015—- SIXTY FOUR (64) — 24 WERE AIR TANKERS
Almost 1 per year average. actually 2 in 2002–2 in 2004–2 in 2008
Air Tanker Pilots do not have a good record they do not live long————–
I would guess if they do not crash, the chemicals they breath give them an early death. Kind of like spraying DDT–or being a Uranium Miner–you get the club on the head sooner or later.
That above post brings to mind–I am taking Joy to the doctor tomorrow. Maybe they can do her some good–same heart doctor I have in the Phoenix area.
Some good news for me, maybe bad news for some of the people that dislike our posts on IM. A catheter was run up my left arm artery to my heart–better than the leg since I had a killer clot on the last look at my heart from the leg. The clot disappeared now, and lo and behold, the guy doing the look at my heart says my main arteries are clear despite the six stents they have up to now inserted at various sessions.
Knowing I have a record of signing myself out as quickly as I see fit from the hospital setting, they got me out quickly. I went in at 8 am and was out by 3:30pm. They wanted to make sure the cut in my artery did seal enough I would not bleed to death. I did have a Guinness afterward to help with the vitamin depletion.
So, we will see what happens with Joy tomorrow–hopefully no stents–too much of a horror story there.
Yesterday–thought Joy was dead, and today the Dr. is going to put her under ultra sound — we will know next week if she is OK or needs heart adjustments. Good lord of the Irish, are all the Yarnell people down with heart, lung, and other maladies after the chemical dump? This does not look good –Joy is young at 45, I am old at 72. Neither of us knew the truth of this agent orange chemical slop.
Say, bull rider Chuck and his wife both down with lung and heart problems–All you asses that keep telling me how inert the retardant is–only wait until it hits you.
Nice to be a Zombie from your fucking agent orange retardant. See one Sonny woke up from the dead to accuse you bastards that keep dropping this shit on the elderly–You kill people and act proudly. Yet you know this shit is deadly to the lungs and know that the public knows not the other lung killing and cancer, heart killing ingredients are hidden under so called legal trade secret bull shit. Are the Israelis not understanding of how Hitler killed millions with his secret gases? Yet they are willing to pump this shit into our local environment. One Israeli I hiked, Zack Ashoor, is dead–at 29 after I hiked him through a fresh dump of that hidden and secret lung killing retardant. This is shit you can not make up.
The Oss videos on the web show the VLAT trying to get in to see if they could line up for a drop. The VLAT pilot gets to decide what he can do and what he cannot based not his information and the conditions. Some pilots will not fly through a collapsed column or a downburst. 200 feet is a ballpark desired drop height. At 100 or 150 mph in that smoke with that bowl is not something every pilot will try. Mrs. Turbyfil does not know what she is talking about.
Mandatory minimum altitude for a VLAT is 300 Ft.
Small Air Tankers can drop at 100 FT—Medium’s 150 to 200 Ft.
It has to do with the volume– Galleons of the drop.
Eric Marsh’s cell phone—-
The fact that Eric Marsh’s cell phone was taken out of evidence after the fire makes it
impossible to determine if
Marsh was contacted /ordered by commanders and other
individuals to bring Granite Mountain to Yarnell as well as other pertinent communications from the fire.
Reply to Diane Lomas on August 10, 2016 at 1:48 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> Eric Marsh’s cell phone—-
>>
>> The fact that Eric Marsh’s cell phone was taken out of
>> evidence after the fire makes it impossible to determine if
>> Marsh was contacted /ordered by commanders and other
>> individuals to bring Granite Mountain to Yarnell as well as
>> other pertinent communications from the fire.
Diane… see the following article by Mr. John Dougherty and published on December 20, 2015.
It took 2 years and 5 months to finally discover that Ms. Amanda Marsh appears to have always had ‘some’ kind of ‘cell phone’ records in her possession from that phone of Eric Marsh’s that had ‘disappeared’ from the Medical Examiner’s office.
She, herself, says that the reason she was only now ‘revealing’ this is because…
1. The Arizona Forestry contracted SAIT investigators never even bothered to ASK her for any kind of ‘cellphone records’, and she never volunteered them to them OR any other ‘investigators’ ( like ADOSH ).
2. She simply didn’t want certain parties ( like InvestigativeMEDIA ) to have them.
NOTE below that even for this ‘interview’… she did not SUPPLY COPIES of whatever it was she is/was claiming to have in her possession. She was still only ‘reporting’ about the contents.
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: Eric Marsh had no cell phone communications in hours before deployment, his widow says.
Published: December 20, 2015
By: John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/eric-marsh-had-no-cell-phone-communications-in-hours-before-deployment-his-widow-says/
From that article…
———————————————————————
Granite Mountain Hotshot superintendent Eric Marsh did not make or receive any cell phone calls in the three hours leading up to the burn over that claimed his life along with 18 other members of his crew during the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013, his wife Amanda Marsh said Saturday.
The question of whether Marsh was in cell phone communication with fire commanders in the hours leading up to the tragedy has lingered for more than two years after two state investigations failed to examine his cell phone records.
“There was nothing after 1:11 p.m.,” Amanda Marsh said. “That call was with Todd Abel.” Abel was a senior commander directing fire suppression operations.
Amanda Marsh contacted InvestigativeMEDIA Saturday evening, three days after it was reported her husband’s phone arrived with his body to the Office of the Maricopa County Medical Examiner on July 1 but was not later included as evidence collected by the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office.
The YCSO collected other cell phones that arrived with the bodies of hotshots and sent them to the Arizona Counter Terrorism Information Center for analysis to determine whether data could be recovered.
Amanda Marsh said a Prescott firefighter later gave her Eric’s cell phone a few weeks after the fire. The firefighter, who she said was not in a command position, met her near the Yavapai County Courthouse in downtown Prescott.
“The phone was destroyed,” she said. “I threw it into a garbage can near the square.”
Amanda Marsh said there were also no text messages. “Eric used a flip phone and it was difficult for him to text,” she said.
She said Eric Marsh only had one cell phone. She noted that sometimes the crew took a satellite phone into remote areas, but she didn’t believe the satellite phone was used in Yarnell.
Amanda Marsh said NO ONE from the Serious Accident Investigation Team that was contracted by the state to conduct an investigation into the disaster EVER contacted her to obtain Eric’s cell phone records.
Amanda Marsh said she declined to provide the cell phone records in the past to InvestigativeMEDIA because she was trying to move on with her life.
She also said she knew the records didn’t show any communications between her husband and fire commanders in the moments leading up to the crucial decision around 4 p.m. to leave their safety zone.
———————————————————————
What is still not clear is if these ‘cell phone records’ that Amanda Marsh claims she had/has, but never gave to anyone ( because either they didn’t ask or she didn’t want certain parties like InvestigativeMEDIA to have them ) are ACTUAL ‘packet level’ cellphone activity records obtained from the Carrier… or ( perhaps ) just some copy of a standard ‘billing record’ she received in the mail.
Notice, also, that Ms. Marsh’s claim that there ‘were no text messages’ seems to be based on just her view that it was “hard for Eric to text”.
In this ‘interview’… Amanda Marsh described the condition of Eric’s phone when it was ‘delivered’ to her in that ‘secret’ meeting which took place near the Prescott Courthouse’ this way…
“The phone was destroyed,” she said. “I threw it into a garbage can near the square.”
But in a later ( actually recent ) interview… she described it differently.
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: Holding on to what was theirs: A Granite Mountain Hotshot widow’s story
Published: 4:02 a.m. MST June 26, 2016
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-best-reads/2016/06/26/granite-mountain-hotshot-widows-story/85890188/
From THAT ( recent ) article/interview…
——————————————————
Many of the families never received any of the personal belongings the men were carrying that day. As the first investigation into their deaths ramped up, she got back three more things Eric had carried in his shirt pocket.
A different firefighter slipped some of Eric’s personal items to her.
She met him in downtown Prescott, where she was given his spotting mirror, his handheld compass and his cellphone. The mirror and compass were in good shape, and she slipped them in her purse.
She held Eric’s cellphone in her hands and inspected the damage. It was melted, but it could still flip open. She tried to power it on. Nothing happened.
If the fire had done this to the phone, imagine what it did to Eric.
She tossed it in a nearby garbage bin.
——————————————————
Notice that in this ( recent ) interview… Amanda Marsh describes the condition of Eric’s cellphone that was being secretly ‘slipped’ back to her in that ‘Courthouse Square’ meetup’ this way…
“It was melted, but it could still flip open. She tried to power it on. Nothing happened.”
So it really wasn’t “destroyed” in the way she had described it earlier.
If it could still ‘flip open’… which means it was not so ‘destroyed’ that the fragile plastic hinges weren’t still fully functional.
And if she even thought there MIGHT have been a ‘chance’ it would ‘power on’ after she ‘flipped it open’… that also means it was not so ‘destroyed’ that the interior panels were ‘destroyed’, either.
There WERE other phones that were recovered from the deployment scene and the bodies of the deceased Hotshots that WERE actually in far worse condition that what Amanda Marsh is describing now… but they WERE still ‘collected as evidence’ and submitted to ACTIC ( Arizona Counter Terrorism Information Center ) for examination and possible data retrieval.
Just a because a phone will simply not ‘power on’ doesn’t mean it is ‘destroyed’ or that the contents could not have been ‘recovered’… if the phone had ever actually made its way into the ‘evidence chain’ and examined by the proper authorities.
Thank you for your reply.
It seems that Eric marsh’s phone was a crucial piece of evidence and unless I am misunderstanding a small group of people are preventing the facts to be revealed. In a police investigation how would the records be revealed without the phone?
WTKTT,
Do you know the results of the cell phone data downloads? Were any successful? If so what did they show? How about data from other phones? I know they looked at Willis’s; how about Cordes?
How can something as crucial evidence S a cell phone be allowed to not be inspected by the proper authorities?
Diane,
The investigation process for wildland fires is odd. They have no subpoena power, they are made up in an arbitrary way, and, according to the emails JD obtained from the SAIT, quite able to “not go there” when they didn’t want to cover uncomfortable situations.
It seems the sheriff’s department decided before the crew was discovered that no crime had been committed, so the FD and family members just went in and did what they thought was most respectful and appropriate, without regard to evidentiary value of anything they touched or bulldozed.
Where is mrs turbyfill’s statement?
Reply to Diane lomas post on August 9, 2016 at 11:29 am
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> Where is mrs turbyfill’s statement?
I’m not sure WHICH statement poster ‘type6’ is referring to above… but I believe it might be one of the ones down below in that ‘excerpt’ that was posted from David and Shari Turbyfill’s ‘Yarnell Fire Realities’ PUBLIC Facebook page.
That posting ( with just some of the comments from that page following the ‘Family Staff Ride’ ) is here…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343855
Well it about time some people that even the NACP fears involve themselves in these 19 useless deaths. We do agree, once the truth is out it will save many lives. Foolish actions that killed 19 deserves the best investigators, and now folks you have itl.
Well it about time some people that even the NACP fears involve themselves in these 19 useless deaths. We do agree, once the truth is out it will save many lives. Foolish actions that killed 19 deserves the best investigators, and now folks you have itl.
I just listened to Joy talk about the Yarnell fire with another concerned investigator out of USA and another person–two hours and more of discussion. I was able to read John Daugherty’s latest article–how excellent it explains how this investigation has been directed toward the hero worship–a sure way to detract from the actual events and the cover up at hand.
I do believe the movie people have begun to read this site and understand that their movie had to be moved from actual events to a story about the men themselves. They have opted not even to use the correct names of parties involved outside the GMHS base. Blue Ridge is changed to Blue River and Yarnell Sheriff Department is changed to Yarnell Police. We have no police in Yarnell, it is a small unincorporated town served by county Sheriff Department. There is a Sheriff shack here in town that the deputies visit now and again.
However, I do believe some where down the line a movie or documentary of true events will develop. The truth is slowly dribbling out, despite the obvious attempts to snuff it. Too many wild land fire fighters of high credentials and experience already have inside information and want the facts out there. A number are on this site and many more that do not post, such as the investigator that has just talked to Joy for over an hour are unhappy with how this thing is presented to the public. With future wild land fire fighter lives at stake, these men that do this work want the truth and are out to get it.
Just a couple examples that still bug me–when I visited the Shrine with my daughter the other day–Joy and I saw a video of a back burn or a burn out right above that in a video on line more than once. Norb verified he had seen it as well, yet video right after the burn is on line where you can not see any firemen or fire trucks–only a shot out of a fireman’s pickup. A second example is that the 320 acres was actually set aside as an extreme fire danger on June 16, 2013. Joy was able to bring it up off line–twice after the fire and showed me. I said it was an error due to a drunken boss marking down the date. But she showed me the official seal and the date was firm, yet we can not find that document again. It like the video of the Shrine burn are gone with the wind.
Too bad this thing is taking so long to expose–19 lives of young firemen, half the town of Yarnell burned away, people here have died to the tune of over 90 since the fire, millions in tax dollars wasted when this fire could have been contained the first day, and some are turning their heads to the facts.
Joy says fire and politics do not mix. I would agree–as a miner we never mixed politics with fire, yet I do know that deaths in the Uranium mines were played down back in the 60’s and 70’s. Uranium was at a premium and considered a priority at the expense of many lives–those killed in the mines and something many are still enduring as an after math due to the cancers, COPD an other health issues due to the rush to provide that deadly substance.
It is imperative to continue investigating this Yarnell Hill Fire screw up. Too much has been lost, too much concerns lives of future wild land fire fighters, people directly affected by the fire, and the tax payer who has laid out the millions to finance this blunder.
I had meant to say Joy and I had seen a video–It and the document of June 16,2013 were both on line shortly after the fire. In those days we did not understand the significance of such evidence or we certainly would have downloaded it. Now we have not been able to recover that evidence–and Joy is as good as anyone in her ability to locate things on line.
I still think the back burn or burn out had something to do with the deaths–It is obvious that the commanders that day were not paying any attention to weather warnings and were going about this as though that fire was going to continue toward Peeples Valley. You can’t roller skate in a buffalo herd–You can’t make a mad dash through extremely thick manzanita and cat claw, although I believe if the film makers went to the place the men expired, they could film the boulder patches–a much larger safety zone on either side of the box canyon where the men were near enough to and could have used to save themselves. But their faith in those flimsy blankets must have overridden their better judgement. I had no blanket so I kept Joy near the boulders in case the fire caught us–even though we were heading to the west side of the Weavers where the vegetation was sparse and boulders also in large areas.
If you doubt the boulder idea, remember we saw Marsh walk back and forth through the fire edge to us and we saw his crossing it three times. See, boulders with no vegetation or very little make an area that a fire has problems developing into or from. But that dense vegetation below the boulders where the men died was throwing out 50-100ft. flames that did melt aluminum cans. Something to be said when you have a boulder field the size of a foot ball field or larger just above your dense death spot the men died in.
Charlie said
“it is obvious that the commanders that day were not paying any attention to weather warnings and were going about this as though that fire was going to continue toward Peeple’s Valley”
Could this explain AA’s decision to stay longer in the Peeple’s Valley area making retardant drops rather than moving to the Yarnell area where they were so badly needed?
Actually Diane, once the winds reversed at velocities of 40-45mph, no retardant dump would help. We watched those embers flying for more than half a mile in those winds– The 230,000 dump of jumbo jet did no good to stop the fire except when it was dropped behind or parallel to the fire advance. I think a few houses might have been saved on the north end of Yarnell because the wind was going SW and the heavy dumps were parallel or oblique to the advance of the fire. Dr. Ted Putnam, expert 15 year smoke jumper told me that these retardant dumps are very iffy. He is right, because if you look at the tenderfoot fire and go to the north end of Yarnell, the local boys did a back burn that a heavy retardant dump was used to slow their back burn. Despite the winds going to the east all that time, the fire burned back over that agent orange retardant dump. It did not even stop a back burn–so when you have heavy winds forget using a retardant dump thinking it will do any good–just be careful not to drop it in a fish tank–and who knows what the chemicals are that are trade secrets.
I was going to sleep since we have a long drive later on-
but I heard typing and saw “joy” from Charlie so I peaked so let me reply-
Charlie says
AUGUST 9, 2016 AT 4:22 PM
I just listened to Joy talk about the Yarnell fire with another concerned investigator out of USA and another person–two hours and more of discussion.
and Joy says fire and politics do not mix.
————————————————————————–
MY REPLY:
no I was not on the phone with investigators- just one who peaks on here and there…no investigator (a looky loo) and the other was DL so do not make the world feel I am on the sly engaging an on the side investigation…just a person who wanted to know some things…or meet some day before we expire…to educate us on some topics-
and
you mean “fire water” and politics do not mix 🙂 hee hee
yep …I have been listening, observing, and many times riding along to fires and seeing…
I do believe the budgets of the fire community given by the politician and their photo ops do not mix with the fire community’s true needs—
as the politicians are marking these convenient heroes as “expendable”…I can tell you this…this was the first election people are coming to me and asking ME if it is ok if they leave area BLANK for Karen Fann and Rowle Simmons because after the way they treated me they felt they did not even want to take their pen and mark their area even though it only names them and WRITE IN…I explained the behaviors of Rowle were innocent but he never did follow through like the homeowners wanted so it would shock me to see him voted in after all the people said to me on topic…but I am not voting this election…the Republican party has been engaging in activities that allows men and women to be expendable but label them heroes while the politician gets photo ops for their assistance in gaining them memorial land set aside…we need a REAL deal INVESTIGATOR Sonny who has a high degree of broad-mindedness while working in an environment rich in cultural, ethnic, religious, spirit world and political diversity….following this all it feels dark and I am just awaiting the light…
guess what…Rocksteady…I am just a housewife hiker who is here by full name not an alias – not a man in Canada who probably made “how much” fighting that horrific Canadian fire in 2016 and I am not here for conspiracy theories or to be labelled as stated below but stating facts on the aftermath of the YHF—I have no theory just stated a fact that yes you could be right for the reason you gave but you do not “live” here knowing the behind the scene stuff so I would not state the facts as I did to be turned and twisted that I could be categorized into the labels I stay far from- conspiracy theorists. Just a girl waiting for the MANY MANY people who have whispered my way- those people- I won’t SPEAK UP but in those times and researching that area out- there is just too much missing elements- and others who could SPEAK UP—
You listen to the stories of Henry Eldon Gilligan (Sonny’s dad)…than you will know politicians and city dads alike would fit this phrase: Too many clowns and not enough circuses
guess what…All I know is diapers and politicians should be changed often and for the same reason. Of course, my two cents worth is worth only just that—two cents.
But I also think some of the fire folks should be retrained or get rid of them.
https://acrosstheboreddotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/two-cents-tuesday-challenge.png?w=512
I think you misunderstood my comment Joy….
First I gotta clear up a comment you made about me making “how much” on the big fire of 2016… If you are talking Fort MacMurray Alberta, I never went. In fact this is one of the slowest seasons on record in BC. I have never made so little $…
When I said “conspiracy theory” it was in response to your comment that one of the YCSO officers has never said condolences and avoids that particular family. And you then stated “What does he know?”….
What are you eluding to? Are you implying that the YCSO are tight lipped about the GMIHS incident, aka GAG ORDER, like the USFS employees?
I just sort of thought it was a weird comment… Nothing else..
due to the small town cronies I won’t touch that online with a proper answer knowing how they have treated me since this YHF but in person I can directly talk but not allowing the lookie loos to twist and do their bullshit—
again alot I cannot say…maybe would want to talk but I ain’t…and he has his own way of things on the topic—
YSCO are very tight lipped, but then politics requires one to be discreet. YSCO is not the problem, They do know, but not required to tell, nor should they when the buck is not in their hand.
Maybe fire fighting and politics do mesh. 670 grand for a small parking lot to allow people to park and try to hike up that west side of the Weaver range. Good luck folks–and maybe they will allow you to see the site they died after what will be and extreme arduous hike. You see Joy and I came down that side of the Weavers, and coincidentally the exact way you go up. She had to go to a chiropractor from sliding down boulders and bitched at me for that but then she came out alive. She forgets I encouraged her by pointing out that they were already hauling out body bags–we were seeing copters with bags that looked to be body bags. I actually at the time thought they might be since we were observing a fire that I knew once the wind redirected it, it would be a killer. Who would have ever thought the GMHS crew would drop down toward that fire and into a inescapable trap? These are questions that the FS and certain of the cronies do not want answered. Their jobs are at stake, but what about the truth. Will these Yahoos continue to keep mum and keep those people quiet that want to speak? I agree with Dr. Ted Putnam–why protect reputations when future wild land fire fighter lives are at stake? Hey, I lost a kid–to me his life was invaluable–so I understand the value of a young man’s life. I helped carry his casket, after, I buckled to the ground in sorrow.
The errors made here need to be known. Not because we disdain Marsh, Steed or the bosses over them. I can tell you that talking to Marsh, I knew he would not want his men dead, but he was neglectful. That neglect killed his men. If you weigh the situation from an unbiased view you will decide that there truly was much wrong that caused the death of 17 men. Indeed it was human factors that killed the 17, and those human factors were due to several humans that were willing to risk those lives for no good reason. Simply said, Your Boss Can Kill You.
Which brings to mind, once the local boys started their backburn–why was it necessary for those agent orange retardant drops to stop their back burn from coming back into Yarnell? Maybe the pros can help me understand this. That had to be a very costly backburn and those retardant drops are not cheap. That back burn also destroyed the local electrical system for some days so that plenty of frozen food was destroyed–even all of those large freezers lost their food, and I suspect all the people that had frozen food–I know ours was ruined. Four million bucks expended–one does need to check this out as a tax payer.
Actually, I could not believe it when Joy asked the local fire department for a copy of records of their involvement in the “Tenderfoot Fire, Denise called the Sheriff on her. Denise sings locally, and now works for the local fire department. I never saw Joy raise her voice or any cause for anyone to be alarmed. Chief Ben Palm was supposed to meet Joy but did not show, but instead the Sheriff was called only because Joy wanted records. Hey, don’t we tax payers have a right to records? Well they do not seem to think so, yet their pay checks are written only because the tax payer foots the bill.
Granted, the Sheriff lady was very decent and only there because she was called. She knew Joy is one to investigate things and only asked her to leave. Joy still has not gotten the records–is there something to hide?
Well I listed many heroes here–Gary Olson, WTKTT, Bob Powers, RTS, Woodsman, Dr. Ted Putnam, JD, Marti, Wayne Niel, Provencio, Norb of Lake Tahoe FD, Muzzie and many more on this site. I want to add one–Joy Collura. Since we lived in a cave together 8 months, fared the deserts in tents and tepees for another six years or so, there is much to be said for this caliber of a person. She wanted to pioneer Arizona since she has helped and known so many of the older folk in their waning years that have lived the pioneer life. So, knowing and being told that her life had limits–2007 the doctors said do your last things– she had done what she wanted to do. I was part of it because I had lived a life in a tent with a Dad that was a real old time prospector. I did understand the freedom of living in America that way–so I taught her a lot of the survival of a prospectors way of life.
This lady is a hero indeed–she does look into things, people and the right way to life. She has no fear to go after what is true and right. You will find no blemish on her record because she lives the laws of the land despite the many offenses to freedom. (Who ever heard of paying 20 bucks to walk across federal and state lands?–all the old people anger at such thinking and would not pay such a tax — Boston tea tax as it is). But be that as it is, she bought my permit unbeknownst to me. Saved me a felony. Do I thank Jesus–fuck no. I am a free American with the right to walk on any state or federal soil, especially since I am grand fathered in and a Vet of good standing. But this new cookie cutter generation deserves to be shackled because they think that the barbed wire around their neck for the protection they are promised is worth it. Wait until the authorities begin to twist it more and more. See go to some psychological studies–You will find that nice college students in an experiment that had to be quit in less that two weeks happened because once people get a club and an authority they abuse it to no end.
You wonder what it has to do with 19 men dead. If you read the GMHS creed, they must obey orders daily with no question. Well the authorities in their case killed them. Had they used their noggins, and I am sure as Steed did at first in arguing with Marsh, then they would be alive. I am certain many questioned their leaders but the bullshit of “Greek God” status and so on fucked them over royally. A man can be your boss, a nice guy, Greek God and so on but you should never give away your own good sense when your own life is at stake. Those young men gave away their power–part due to religious bull shit and part because they ascribed to obeying orders at all costs.
See being a miner and long experienced, when told to do things a boss told me to do and I knew better I said fuck you and your job if necessary. But in the wild land fire fighting business it is different. In mining the bosses made 7 and hour while I was making 20-30 an hour. So if those assholes knew so much why weren’t they a miner. None of that greek god status for bosses there. In fact we considered them as nippers–runners to get shit we needed to get the job done.
Gary Olson’s Dad died in the same mine hole I worked in my earlier years. I looked at his Dad, it brought a burden on my heart. You could see a top miner in that man–his wet suit worn and tattered from his job. You knew he was not a novice at mining–a hero that sacrificed his life providing the Uranium the government was so intent on getting to provide the bombs to make sure this country was safe. He was a soldier at war–and sacrificed his life. I know this because I carried out a few busted up miners myself, and was even wounded myself. I know what a battle is and always when I dropped down 900 ft into that very shaft Gary’s Father perished, I knew that I was at war and took my job that way. So that man deserves a silver star for giving his life doing what the nation needed to preserve the freedoms we so cherish. Thanks to Gary for sharing that photo–it is amazing how much you can know from it.
Gary, I was living homeless in Seattle in the black area–it was after my son died. I had an old van parked on Jackson and 21st st as I remember–a few bullet holes in the van one day–so I moved it. Thing was I was doing a PTSD class, and there was a vet and I swear he was a twin to the photo of your Dad. He gave me a title to a nice camper van–said Sonny, you are on the streets, living in an old junker and I just bought a new one so you have my old one. I came to Dolan Springs in that and started life there on ten acres living out of that camper van. Sometimes it gives me a wonder but when I saw that photo of your Dad it was like this man was a reincarnation–and your old Dad was there again doing good things for another old miner needing a hand.
Charlie-I assume that bosses include marsh and steeds bosses.
Reply to type6 post on August 9, 2016 at 9:11 am
>> type6 said…
>>
>> The Oss videos on the web show the VLAT trying to get in to
>> see if they could line up for a drop.
Yes, it does. Either that… or we are just seeing him ‘following’ Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33′ and pilot Thomas French while HE was trying to do that.
The Air-To-Air radio channel captures prove that for some time following the ’emergency’ radio calls… they all thought they might get a better ‘fix’ on Granite Mountain’s exact location at any moment. That’s why they kept calling down to Eric Marsh and asking him to say “when he heard the aircraft”.
One of those calls ( that there was no response to ) was John Burfiend saying…
—————————————————————–
+3:57 ( 1642:57 / 4:42:57 PM )
( Bravo 33 – John Burfiend ): Okay… uh… we’re working our way around there.
We’ve got… uh… several aircraft comin’ to you. We’ll see if we can’t take care
of business for ya.
—————————————————————–
“working our way around there” – We see that in the Oss video.
“We’ve got SEVERAL AIRCRAFT comin’ TO you” – As in… not just ONE.
“We’ll see if we can’t take care of business for ya” – As in “do a drop”.
The only thing ‘missing’ was an exact LOCATION about WHERE to (quote) “take care of business”… and that is what the never got and so no ‘final’ decision about whether to try it ( or not ) was ever actually made that afternoon.
>> type6
>>
>> The VLAT pilot gets to decide what he can do and what he cannot
>> based not his information and the conditions.
The pilot of VLAT 910 ( Kevin Hopf ) never even had the chance to “decide what he can or can’t do” that afternoon… because they never knew exactly WHERE to even try it.
>> type6
>>
>> Some pilots will not fly through a collapsed column or a downburst.
Keyphrase: “Some pilots wll not”
Which also means… “Some pilots WILL”.
>> type6 also said…
>>
>> 200 feet is a ballpark desired drop height.
>> At 100 or 150 mph in that smoke with that bowl is not
>> something every pilot will try.
Again… Keyphrase: “not something every pilot will try”.
Which also means “some pilots WILL try it”.
As far as we know… DC10 VLAT pilot Kevin Hopf was NEVER interviewed by any investigators… or ever asked which “Some pilots” category he falls into.
>> type6 also said…
>>
>> Mrs. Turbyfil does not know what she is talking about.
Exactly which statement attributed to Mrs. ( Shari ) Turbyfill are you referring to?
One of the ones she made on her ( and her husband’s ) “Yarnell Hill Realities” Facebook page where they talked about how piss-poor the ‘Family Staff Ride’ was?
RTS… just thought I would let you know that someone seems to have ‘hijacked’ your IM logon and is posting down below under your usual logon name about how perfectly ‘possible’ it was for VLAT 910 to have ( perhaps ) attempted a drop on GM that afternoon in Yarnell… and that is WHY John Burfiend told Marsh they were gonna (quote) “Bring YOU the VLAT… Okay?”.
Not sure what you can do about this kind of ‘Logon hijacking’ other than notify John Dougherty.
>> On August 8, 2016 at 3:17 am, calvin said…
>>
>> It remains a fact that one of the last things Marsh (and the GMIHC) ever
>> heard was Burfiend say that he was bringing them the v lat.
>>
>> 1. Why did Burfiend tell Div a that if it was not possible?
>>
>> 2. Why did Burfiend tell him Marsh that if he didn’t have a strong idea where they were?
>> On August 8, 2016 at 1:19 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) replied…
>>
>> Calvin,
>>
>> Regarding the AA and GMHS VLAT conversation above… you posted:
>>
>> “1. Why did Burfiend tell Div a that if it was not possible?”
>>
>> It was possible. He said he was going to send one his way.
>>
>> “2. Why did Burfiend tell him Marsh that if he didn’t have a strong idea where they were?”
>>
>> He knew they were on the south side of the fire, so get one headed to the south side of the fire.
Regarding location of Granite Mountain during the burn over—when Burfiend answered Granite Mountain’s emergency radio call why didnt he get more information about their location than “south side of the fire”?
I have to be real quick in reply…been a rough week…busy elsewhere…I do not know about Burfiend up in the air but ground in particular one YCSO (AKA GM movie label Yarnell officer) stated to us when we found bones when looking for suicide man…we heard this exactly as a reply when I said “how come you all found me when I had a seizure by my cell (gps) but you all could not find these 19 elite men?” he replied: “There was never any doubt where the men were; it was just chaotic afternoon and a bad thing happened”….SO why is it ground can publicly state that and you can see things better from above…what gives Burfiend…what did the radios really say that last hour because there is evidence many that were on the fire were “shocked” that the men were still in that area…what has not been said YET…oh and I just got a new cell yesterday and have not tried to figure it out yet…got too much going on…but Sonny’s dog last week broke my cell so when things calm down then I will get around to technology…I am really in a zone and rarely even pop here lately…but someone IS popping in because the “hits” to the counter are back…
GPS on cells only works if its turned ON…
I was told they did not even try that area Rocksteady to test gps because no need- there was no question where they were- the question was why they were still in there…and there is no tested evidence that all cells were not on that afternoon- I have asked and dissected the cell area long ago…that was my beef area from the start,
Rocksteady- you also have to remember there was a YCSO officer on that fire that day that use to hang out like family with one of the loved ones family and after the fire never even said “Sorry for your loss” and avoided them like the plague…what does he know???
okay- I am logging out and be off for this week-
Sonny’s heart surgery than my areas I have to attend to health-wise…have a good week y’all
Joy said “Rocksteady- you also have to remember there was a YCSO officer on that fire that day that use to hang out like family with one of the loved ones family and after the fire never even said “Sorry for your loss” and avoided them like the plague…what does he know???”
Maybe he does not know anything, and is just having a hard time facing a family who lost a loved one that he was friends with…
Don’t go all conspiracy theory on us here Joy 🙂
I thought that I read on this blog that Granite Mountain communicated during the burn over—is this correct?
When they went under shelters they no longer communicated.
some say the shelter prevented it.
some say the died within seconds of the burn over.
There was some keyed mike static over the radio coming from the GM Freq.
When the EMT walked to the Deployment site he could here Radios talking.
Was it impossible to determine a time of death?
Diane,
Time of death estimates used in forensics depend on body characteristics that are dependent on temperature, either directly, as in liver temperature, or indirectly, as in extent of rigor. As the time since death gets longer, or when ambient temperature is variable or indeterminate, these signs will be less useful. In any case, they are just estimates.
Because these young men died in fire, remained in the fatality location overnight, as the area cooled, and were transported and cooled before examination, there is no way to use these signs to estimate time of death.
There are other indicators, such as the location and types of toxins and combustion products in lungs and blood, that suggest how long they lived after exposure to fire. Moreover, other signs indicate that temperatures reached were too high to survive, even in shelters. Together, these signs indicate they did not survive very long. When the recovery team finally reached them hours later, they had all expired.
The times of recorded radio transmissions depend on the accuracy of the timer in the recording device. WTKTT and others have spent lots of time trying to determine the accuracy of those. Those are the best indicator of when they were last known to be alive, and the assumption is that they were gone within a few to possibly 10-15 minutes, depending on how and when the fire found them.
There has been some controversy about how the fatality scene was handled in that experienced investigators didn’t see the scene at all until bodies had been removed and even then, access has been limited. The exact position and condition of bodies, combined with an analysis of damage to clothing, position of equipment, evidence of saw cuts, etc., can tell a story of their last minutes, but the scene was only photographed before it was destroyed the following morning. Since the cause of this fatality seems to boil down to “human factors,” this loss of information is especially tragic.
I am confused-I just read that someone (Marsh?) was trying to make radio contact 10 minutes after Jesse Steeds mayday call.
Reply to Diane lomas post on August 10, 2016 at 2:44 pm
>> Diane lomas…
>>
>> I am confused-I just read that someone (Marsh?) was
>> trying to make radio contact 10 minutes after Jesse
>> Steeds mayday call.
According the pilot of Helicopter 5KA ( Five Kilo Alpha )… yes… that is exactly what HE says he heard at exactly 4:48 PM that afternoon.
This is not coming from any verbal or written ‘testimony’.
There is an actual Air-To-Air radio channel capture ( with known timestamps ) that RECORDED him trying to report that directly to pilot Thomas French in the ‘Bravo 33’ aircraft, while they were all now actively trying to ‘locate’ and ‘communicate’ with ‘Granite Mountain’ following the ‘distress’ calls…
————————————————–
From PANEBAKER VIDEO 20130630_1716_EP
which starts 1645.19 ( 4:45.19 PM )
+03:07 ( 1648.26 / 4:48.26 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA – to Thomas French in B33): I think Division Alpha was ( just ) callin’ ya on Air-To Ground.
————————————————–
This actual radio capture is then ‘backed up’ by ‘testimony’ from Thomas French and John Burfiend ( in their one-and-only SAIT interview ) that the pilot of DC10 VLAT 910 ( Kevin Hopf ) also ‘thought’ he heard the same thing right around that same time.
But the reality is that BOTH of these ‘pilots’ COULD have been ‘mistaken’ about what they thought they just heard.
Personally… I think the fact that the pilot of Helicopter 5KA was actually telling Thomas French ( at 4:48:36 PM ) that the ‘radio call’ he thought he heard WAS coming a specific source ( Division Alpha ) to a specific target ( ‘Air Attack’ and/or ‘Bravo 33’ ) means that he WAS pretty damn SURE about what he had just heard ( at 4:48:36 PM ).
If he was RIGHT ( about what he just heard )… then that means Eric Marsh was still ‘alive enough’ almost 10 minutes after the first emergency call to still be operating his handheld radio and making that specific call… with those specific ‘call signs’.
If he was NOT RIGHT about what he just heard… then we can’t say that recording of him saying that is any kind of PROOF that anyone down there at the deployment site was ‘still alive’ circa 4:48 PM.
The pilot of Helicopter 5KA was ( as far as we know ) NEVER ‘interviewed’ by any investigators ( SAIT or ADOSH ) following the tragedy… even though he was right there ‘in the mix’ and was ‘privy’ to ALL of the communications happening in that critical timeframe BEFORE, DURING and AFTER the ‘deployment’… including what was being said/heard on both the Air-To-Ground AND the Air-To-Air radio channels.
The pilot of DC10 VLAT 910 ( Kevin Hopf ) was also ( as far as we know ) NEVER interviewed by any ‘investigators’ either.
Followup…
What was actually happening there with Helicopter 5KA ( Five Kilo Alpha ) is that just prior to the original ’emergency’ radio call from Jesse Steed at 4:39:13 PM… he ( the pilot of 5KA ) had just finished ‘disconnecting and dropping his bucket’ up by the Peeples Valley Horseshoe dipsite and he was actually in the process of LEAVING the Yarnell area in order to ‘refuel’ that Helicopter 5KA ( back in Wickenburg ).
He heard the emergency radio traffic himself starting at 4:39:13 PM over the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel… and he ( unlike John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ ) knew immediately that those were ‘distress calls’ and that something was seriously wrong ‘down there’.
He immediately ‘turned around’ ( did a ‘180’, in his words ) and started heading back to Yarnell and the actual fire area.
He hadn’t really completely LEFT the area yet… so after ‘turning around’… he was there on the SOUTH side of the fire again very quickly.
He even TOLD Thomas French on the Air-To-Air channel that is exactly what he was doing ( doing a ‘180 degree turnaround’ and ‘coming back’ ) WHILE the ‘distress’ calls were still happening….
————————————————————
+02:50 ( 1648.09 / 4:48.09 PM )
( Helicopter 5KA to Thomas French in B33 ): Tell ya what, here, I’ll do a one-eighty and catch up with ya…and we got at least 20 minutes or more… possible.
————————————————————
Notice that in addition to TELLING Thomas French he was doing a ‘180’ to ( perhaps ) assist with the developing emergency… he was also informing French that he only had ( possibly ) about 20 minutes of fuel remaining.
This pilot of Helicopter 5KA is also the one who was also trying to ‘intervene’ on the radio and get someone ( anyone ) in the ‘Air Attack / Bravo 33′ aircraft to pay attention to those ’emergency’ calls and ANSWER them.
After only 25 seconds had transpired following Jesse Steed’s FIRST ’emergency’ radio call at 4:39:13 PM… the pilot of Helicopter 5KA knew something was ‘wrong’… and since John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ hadn’t ‘responded’ after 25 seconds… he took it upon himself to INSERT himself into the situation ( on the Air-To-Air channel ) and tell ‘Bravo 33’ to PAY ATTENTION to what was now transpiring over on the other ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel…
—————————————————————–
From PANEBAKER VIDEO 20160630_1643 which STARTS
at 1630.50 ( 4:30.50 PM ), based on an actual EXIF timestamp…
+08:48 ( 1639.38 / 4:39.38 PM )
( Helicopter 5KA – to B33 ): Bravo three three… you’ve got Operations calling Air to Ground.Sounds like they got somethin’ for ya.
—————————————————————–
Thomas French himself ( who would have been the one hearing this “heads up” from the Helicopter pilot ) never even ‘acknowledges’ this radio call from that pilot… and then his ‘right seater’ ( John Burfiend ) would then continue to IGNORE those radio calls from Granite Mountain for another full 1 and 1/2 minutes, before finally being ORDERED by OPS1 Todd Abel to STOP ignoring those calls and RESPOND.
So we can HEAR that pilot of Helicopter 5KA, himself, understanding immediately that an ’emergency’ was developing, and we can HEAR him trying to ‘prod’ ‘Bravo 33’ into paying attention to those desperate calls coming at them over the Air-To-Ground channel from ‘Granite Mountain’.
But even that “heads up” from this ‘other pilot’ did nothing to cause John Burfiend to ‘wake up’ and RESPOND to those calls. Only a direct ORDER from OPS1 Todd Abel eventually ‘did the trick’.
My point with this ‘Followup’, however, was just to say that we KNOW this is what Helicopter 5KA was doing during the ’emergency’… and we KNOW that he DID ‘return to the fire area’ and was there on the SOUTH edge of the fire after doing that ‘180 degree turnaround’ and he ‘came back’.
So that put this Helicopter 5KA pilot ) in a BETTER position to HEAR any ‘radio traffic’ coming from the deployment site than, perhaps, any other aircraft at that time.
He was CLOSE to the deployment site for the entire ’emergency’ sequence and for many minutes beyond that.
So it remains possible that he was in a perfect position to actually HEAR what he said he heard as late as 4:48:26 PM… which was…
————————————————–
+03:07 ( 1648.26 / 4:48.26 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA – to Thomas French in B33): I think Division Alpha was ( just ) callin’ ya on Air-To Ground.
————————————————–
Is there anyway to interview indivuLs such as helicopter pilot etc that heard marsh attempting to make radio communication 15 minutes after the burn over? I realize that they weren’t interviewed at the time of the accident but is there anything that precludes them from being interviewed now?
Many truths have been hidden, many pages and pages redacted. You would think it was a top secret organization by the pages of redaction. Redact it all, then we can all be heroes.
That is funny. Either way
I did not see anything funny with the above discussion.
19 Humans died a horrific death.
**
** “SHORTY AND THEM”
**
** MORE ABOUT VLAT 910 PILOT KEVIN HOPF
Just more ‘confirmation’ that the pilot of VLAT DC10 910 was, in fact, Kevin Hopf.
This ‘article’ also describes his ‘flying’… and apparently this Hopf guy was GOOOOD, and absolutely no stranger to flying ‘low to the ground’…. even THROUGH smoke clouds….
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: High-country wedding a break from wildfire pain
Published: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:09 AM – By: Doug MacEachern
http://archive.azcentral.com/opinions/articles/20130715high-country-fire-wedding-viewpoints.html
From that article…
————————————————————————————
On the day your boy is getting married, a man is expected to know nothing but joy. And maybe a touch of relief.
There should be no place for anguish on a day like this. But there we are, on the sun-dappled polo field at Van Dickson Ranch along Skull Valley Creek, northwest of Prescott, squinting and drinking pre-wedding beers beside the enormous party tents. And talking about … the fire.
My brother-in-law, Walter “Shorty” Weedon Jr., like so many of the Prescott people at the wedding today, is in torment. He is struggling for happiness, for the joy that by rights should be his. It is in short supply.
“We’ve been to two of the funerals this week,” he says. “And all the memorials going on. I can’t even remember anymore.”
“Shorty and them,” as my brother-in-law’s side of the family is invariably known in Prescott, know the land under them. They know every inch of northern Arizona forest country. And, likewise, they know all the other people for whom the high country and its forests have meaning.
One of them is Kevin Hopf, pilot of one of two DC-10s operated by the U.S. Forest Service to drop retardant on wildfires.
Shorty grew up with Hopf, youngest of eight boys living down the hill from the Weedons in Ponderosa Park.
And on the polo field at Van Dickson Ranch just before his son’s wedding, Shorty talked in amazement about Hopf’s valiant effort to save the hometown forests. How it was the giant slurry bombers that finally stopped the march of both the Yarnell Hill Fire that killed all those boys and the Doce Fire that nearly took out the home owned by Travis and his new bride, Lauren, out on Williamson Valley Rd. at Mint Creek Ranch.
Travis talked about it, too. At the post-wedding, present-opening barbeque at his home on Sunday, Travis is pointing to where Hopf’s DC-10 came over his roof so low you could see inside the cockpit.
“I swear it seemed he wasn’t 50 feet off the ground.”
Both Hopf’s aircraft and the other DC-10 had been flying sorties every 42 minutes at the height of the Doce Fire, which is the minimum time it takes to roar down to Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport, reload with 17,000 gallons of slurry and return to the fight.
On the sortie that stopped the fire’s march down Granite Mountain northwest of Mint Creek, Hopf came in low, disappearing into a cloud of smoke before reappearing on a tight, nearly vertical bank to the left. That’s when he dropped the line of slurry that we can clearly see from Travis’ back porch. The one that likely saved the property where we stand.
————————————————————————————
Here is the man himself ( Kevin Hopf )… in a PUBLIC video interview posted to Facebook right after the Tenderfoot fire ( which he also worked ).
https://www.facebook.com/weatherlivetv/videos/vb.1482103248761376/1561872750784425/?type=2&theater
PUBLIC video caption…
————————————————————————–
Chief DC-10 Pilot Kevin Hopf of 10 Tanker Air reflects on the air operations surrounding the #Tenderfootfire that impacted the Yarnell and Peeples Valley areas in Arizona.
————————————————————————–
The video is about 4 minutes long… with Kevin Hopf talking the whole time.
This contains a good ‘tour of the cockpit’ and the aircraft itself.
There are ‘stickers’ all over the cockpit wall… and one of them is a “Remember the 19” sticker.
Same PUBLIC video interview with VLAT pilot Kevin Hopf is also
available on the ‘Weather Nation’ page…
https://www.facebook.com/WeatherNation/videos/vb.129524519873/10154293466244874/?type=2&theater
WTKTT
Thanks for the news article and video clips.
I noticed some issues of concern.
Regarding the post-wedding, present-opening barbeque conversation, both Hopf’s aircraft and the other DC-10 had been flying sorties every 42 minutes at the height of the Doce Fire … Travis is pointing to WHERE HOPF’S DC-10 AIRCRAFT CAME OVER HIS ROOF SO LOW YOU COULD SEE INSIDE THE COCKPIT. … I SWEAR IT SEEMED HE WASN’T 50 FEET OFF THE GROUND.” (EMPHASIS ADDED).
Now, we all know that this habit of people using THE NEGATIVE (‘he wasn’t 50 feet off the ground’) to explain something actually in the positive (‘he was 50 feet off the ground’) has been the vernacular and/or colloquial speech for quite some time now, when they actually mean the positive, e.g. ‘I swear it seemed he WAS 50 feet off the ground’ is what he REALLY MEANS.
Nevertheless, flying with a load of retardant and dropping it from 50feet is WAY TOO LOW AND WAY TOO DANGEROUS. IF this was his regular habit of flying this low, it’s only a matter of time. In other words, he is on the path of bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes.
The IRPG on page 58-59, ‘Working with Airtankers,’ states that the ‘MINIMUM RETARDANT DROP HEIGHTS” FOR A VLAT IS 300 FT. AGL (ABOVE GROUND LEVEL).
WHOOPS! That means he was about 250 feet TOO F**KING LOW! It’s only a matter of time unless he changes his ways and operates more safely.
There there was the video clip revealing some very good information.
Hopf – “THERE IS ALWAYS A SENSE OF URGENCY BUT YOU CERTAINLY, YOY CAN’T LET THAT OVERRIDE ah, ya know SAFETY AND CERTAIN PROTOCOLS THAT WE HAVE SET UP … WE MAKE IT A NICE, CONTROLLED DESCENT DOWN TO WHERE WE NEED TO BE, … and FROM THERE WE DISCHARGE THE RETARDANT .. AND NOW WE’RE ON A TAKEOFF, we’re JUST CLIMBING AWAY FROM THE TERRAIN.” (EMPHASIS ADDED) (Timeframe: 0.21 to 0.45)
This is certainly NOT what they would have been able to do or experienced in the YH Fire BSR ‘bowl.’ I am NOT a pilot, however, I have witnessed HUNDREDS of Airtanker drops in my career, and the YH Fire BSR ‘bowl’ was an IMPOSSIBILITY.
“WE TAKE ONE CIRCLE AROUND THE FIRE, WE TAKE A LOOK AT IT, WE GET a … OUR LEAD [PLANE[ GOES DOWN AND ACTUALLY GIVES US A SHOW ME, FROM THERE WE TAG IN BEHIND HIM AND COME AROUND AND DISPENSE THE RETARDANT.“
Oh, but wait, SOME of us were under the deluded impression this Airtanker retardant thing was a “wham bam, easy peasy” thing. DEFINITELY NOT ENOUGH TIME AND/OR SPACE AND/OR THE RIGHT WEATHER TO DO ALL THAT, EVEN IF THE LEAD PLANE WAS OUT OF THE PICTURE.
He also said they are flying “about 150 knots speed while dropping retardant,” another factor to add to the unsafe and IMPOSSIBLE mix above.
Thanks for sharing all that informative and instructive material but same conclusion for me. NO F**KING WAY!
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
August 8, 2016 at 5:06 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Thanks for sharing all that informative and instructive material.
I thought you might enjoy that.
Despite any/all “we do things by the book” stuff that he was speaking TO a CAMERA in an OFFICIAL INTERVIEW…. the descriptions of his actual behavior and ‘risk taking’ on the Doce fire seem to indicate that had there actually been an exact DROP LOCATION ascertained for the 19 Prescott-based Hotshots ( Pilot Kevin Hopf grew up in Prescott )… and had there been any chance at all of delivering retardant to that KNOWN location…
…this guy WOULD have, in fact, probably TRIED IT.
The missing piece that day was LOCATION.
GM had FAILED to provide it… and John Burfiend had FAILED to ascertain it ( by ignoring their calls for help until being ORDERED to respond to them ).
So there was no chance to even DECIDE whether to TRY IT… or not.
THAT is what REALLY HAPPENED.
WTKTT,
You posted: “… the descriptions of his actual behavior and UNNECESSARY (EMPHASIS ADDED HERE) ‘RISK TAKING’ on the Doce fire seem to indicate that had there actually been an exact DROP LOCATION ascertained for the 19 Prescott-based Hotshots ( Pilot Kevin Hopf grew up in Prescott )… and had there been any chance at all of delivering retardant to that KNOWN location…
…THIS GUY WOULD HAVE, IN FACT PROBABLY TRIED IT” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
YES INDEED, AND THAT SCARES THE SHIT OUT OF ME. BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE TAKEN AN UNNECESSARY RISK THREATENING HIS LIFE, THE LIVES OF HIS AIRCREW AND ALL OTHER WFF’S.
You posted: “The missing piece that day was LOCATION.”
You posted: “GM had FAILED to provide it… and John Burfiend had FAILED to ascertain it ( by ignoring their calls for help until being ORDERED to respond to them ).”
The key here is that Marsh and the GMHS FAILED TO PROVIDE THEIR LOCATION to the AA. THEY were the ones in dire straits and needing the help. It was NOT the responsibility of AA.
You also posted: “So there was no chance to even DECIDE whether to TRY IT… or not.”
You also posted: “THAT is what REALLY HAPPENED.”
NO, that is what YOU think really happened.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
August 8, 2016 at 7:00 pm
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The key here is that Marsh and the GMHS FAILED
>> TO PROVIDE THEIR LOCATION to the AA. THEY
>> were the ones in dire straits and needing the help.
>> It was NOT the responsibility of AA.
On the first part of your statement… we agree.
On the second part… we do not.
Even though GM didn’t have either the good sense or the actual ‘training’ to provide there exact location WHILE they were trying to ‘declare an emergency’… John Burfiend DID have a ‘responsibility’ to NOT IGNORE THEM and to ascertain their whereabouts.
We even HEAR him trying to do that… but only after he had wasted too much time IGNORING them to be successful.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You also posted: “So there was no chance to even
>> DECIDE whether to TRY IT… or not.”
>>
>> You also posted: “THAT is what REALLY HAPPENED.”
>>
>> NO, that is what YOU think really happened.
Oh… so they really DID eventually ascertain GM’s exact location and they eventually DID ‘decide’ that exact location was ‘too risky’ for an attempted drop?
Which Air-To-Air channel radio capture is that in?
I must have missed it.
ONE FACT
A LOW DROP WILL ACTUALLY PLOW UP GROUND RATHER THAN DISPURSE AND BE AFFECTIVE.
I have in fact seen this in some training films on Air Tanker drops by volume and Altitude.
The set altitudes differ By size of Air Craft.
Another article that mentions VLAT pilot Kevin Hopf, and confirms he was working the Doce Fire.
Pilot Kevin Hopf grew up in Prescott.
This article was published just 3 days BEFORE the Yarnell tragedy.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: DOCE FIRE: Ground coordination, air support helped save homes from blaze
Published: June 27, 2013 6 a.m.
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2013/jun/27/doce-fire-ground-coordination-air-support-helped-/
May be you should look up the Life Expectancy of a Tanker Pilot……..
Last I remember we were losing ONE a YEAR on average. Not including the Crew
which has added to the Fatality numbers.
WTKTT,
These research findings still apply even though they are from a Federal Aerial Firefighting: Assessing Safety and Effectiveness—December 2002 study:
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/publications/aviation/fed_aerial_ff_assessing_safety_effectivenss_brp_2002.pdf
“FINDING 1–SAFETY (page i)
“The safety record of fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters used in wildland fire
management is unacceptable. The panel determined that contractor personnel flying large air tankers are subject to a lower safety standard than government personnel flying federally owned and operated lead planes and smoke-jumper aircraft. Further, the level of safety for both contractor and
government aerial firefighting operations is lower than can be financially justified, and is less than expected for any employer concerned about its employees. This disparity in safety standards stems from a government contracting process that assumes the airworthiness of today’s large air tanker fleet has been assured by the FAA’s type certification process. However, responsibility for the continued airworthiness of aircraft converted to air tankers is up to the contractors who own and operate the aircrafts.”
“The panel saw that, quite unlike most professional aviation communities, air tanker pilots do not share information about successful techniques, good or bad results, and difficulties encountered in their operations.”
“Air tanker pilots consider lead planes a significant safety enhancement and, at
times, will refuse a retardant delivery run unless a lead plane has checked the area for escape routes, obstacles, and adequate maneuverability. A Forest Service pilot told the panel that although initial attack of a fire is possible without a lead plane, when doing so, air tanker crews “are operating with the safety net removed.”’
Pilot Culture (page 25)
“Pilots, particularly pilots flying large air tankers, too often accept risks to accomplish a mission. With each passing season, crews discover they can accept a little more risk than before and still survive, and be paid for doing so. Risk becomes addictive, additive, and accepted. Risk is, as some indicated to the panel, one of the most attractive features of the mission. Risk can be mitigated to a degree by what crews learn on the job while fighting
fires.”
“Although few lives might be at risk, large air tankers are being flown in unsafe
conditions that the military would not usually accept. Air tanker pilots convey a spirit of invincibility. Presenters’ clear admiration for pilots who take unwarranted risks in the name of mission accomplishment was seen too frequently to suggest that this is a deliberate, restrained population. Extensive documentation also indicates that aircraft limits have been consistently exceeded.”
These go to the point Muzzy was making ABOUT STRESSING THE AIRCRAFT;
“Pilots routinely exceed g-limits during pullouts after dropping fire retardant. In
one case, a P-2V pilot hit the aircraft’s maximum g-limit on four of seven
missions in a single day. ”
“The firefighting mission, especially in mountainous terrain, forces pilots to
routinely exceed g-limits that large air tanker aircraft usually would not expect to reach but a few times in the aircraft’s life.”
These two above quotes clearly would have been the case trying to clear the terrain in the YH Fire BSR ‘bowl.’
Yes… that was a BRUTAL report back in 2002…
…but based on videos we are seeing from even recent fires seasons… 14 years doesn’t seem to have made much of a difference.
These ‘flyboys’ are still “pushing the envelope” on a REGULAR basis.
And WFF management doesn’t seem to give a shit.
‘Accidents waiting to happen”.
Tick… tock… Tick… tock…
WTKTT,
Thanks for the Prescott daily Courier article.One more tidbit to discuss.
The reporter evidently did not talk with a PDO (Public DISinformation Officer when he posted this: “The tankers follow lead planes AND DROP AS LOW AS 150 FEET FROM THE GROUND.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
What did that darn, pesky IRPG say again about retardant safety?
The IRPG on page 58-59, ‘Working with Airtankers,’ states that the ‘MINIMUM RETARDANT DROP HEIGHTS” FOR A VLAT IS 300 FT. AGL (ABOVE GROUND LEVEL).”
WHOOPS!
FWIW… in the following video taken by Brendan McDonough in Yarnell, from his ‘lookout mound’, at 1:40 PM on June 30, 2013…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADfRvBkDs_EsAnIo0kKVU_2a/Photos%20and%20Video/Brendan%20McDonough%20Photos?dl=0&preview=20130630_134022.mp4
…the HEIGHT of VLAT 910 as seen in this video at the moment it is ‘dropping retardant’ right there in front of Brendan appears to be ‘within normal limits’.
The VLAT seems to be at least 2 plane lengths off the ground as it made that long drop across that middle bowl.
The length of a Douglas DC10 is right around 182 feet.
So TWO plane lengths would put it at least 364 off the ground.
That is the same exact VLAT ( 910 ) with the same pilot flying it ( Kevin Hopf ) that would then be ‘in the air’ over Yarnell at the time of the deployment later that same day.
**
** SAFETY OFFICERS NEEDED AT THE MOVIE?
There have been a number of serious INJURIES lately over there in New Mexico on the set of this ‘Granite Mountain’ ‘fillum’ thing.
Famous cinematographer Claudio Miranda is now walking around with his arm in a sling due to a broken collarbone… and actress Jennifer Connelly ( who plays Amanda Marsh ) is walking around with a full forearm brace and finger-splint because of a BROKEN finger and a sprained wrist.
Both injuries seemed to have happened on or about the time they started filming ‘Horse riding’ scenes.
Here is a PUBLIC photo of Jennifer Connelly ‘on set’ with broken finger and sprained wrist…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BIyPaqdDH68/?taken-by=joshbrolin
Josh Brolin originally posted a photo of Claudio Miranda with his arm in a sling and the comment ‘broken collarbone’ on July 26… but he seems to have DELETED that photo from his ‘Public’ Instagram ‘gallery page’ right around the same time he REMOVED that public ‘attack’ he posted against John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA.
Oddly enough, though, the following DIRECT link to Brolin’s original PUBLIC posting of that photo of the injured ‘Claudio Miranda’ still works…
>> On July 26, 2016 at 11:22 am, WTKTT posted…
>>
>> Direct link to the ‘original’ PUBLIC photo posted by actor Josh Brolin
>> just 15 hours ago…. supposedly showing cinematographer Claudio Miranda
>> with a ‘broken collarbone’…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BITxeIbjqGf/?taken-by=joshbrolin
PUBLIC photo caption/text…
——————————————–
joshbrolin
Claudio Miranda ( background with broken collarbone ) and lady in dark colors. @kathrynboyd_ @lamodelsrunway @lamodels #babe #directorofphotography #claudiomiranda #granitemountain @black_label_media #leicaq
——————————————–
Reply to calvin post on August 8, 2016 at 3:17 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> It remains a fact that one of the last things Marsh (and the GMIHC) ever
>> heard was Burfiend say that he was bringing them the v lat.
Thank you, calvin… for being another “Voice of REALITY” here.
Yes… if we are going to revisit this ENTIRE scenario once again… there has ALWAYS been all kinds of evidence ( radio recordings, testimony, etc. ) that IF the had ACTUALLY KNOWN where those men were… that they WOULD have ( possibly ) decided to make ’emergency retardant’ drops.
No question.
We still do NOT know if they would have actually decided to ‘go ahead’ with it… but they were damn sure PREPARING for it… even already ‘seeing’ and ‘knowing’ the actual conditions there on that “south side of the fire”.
All they were missing was a LOCATION… which is what John Burfiend failed to ascertain in the time when it was still possible to do so.
And ( as some commenters so far seem to think )… it is not a matter of ‘opinion’ about whether they were PREPARING to POSSIBLY deliver retardant and/or bucket drops to the men ‘in trouble’… ( even though they could SEE and were already fully ‘aware’ of the conditions ‘down there’ )…
…there are actual RECORDINGS of the men involved SAYING that IS exactly what they were doing.
The actual ‘Twisp’ report proves that the real key was LOCATION.
Once they KNEW exactly WHERE to try it… they TRIED it ( Supposedly EIGHT TIMES ), regardless of some pretty gnarly ( and risky ) conditions.
VLAT 910 Pilot Kevin Hopf was ( as far as we know ) never ‘interviewed’ at all.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> 1. Why did Burfiend tell Div a that if it was not possible?
Because at the moment Burfiend said that… he did NOT know whether it would really be ‘possible’ or not… and he had to ASSUME that maybe it WOULD be. All they needed was a LOCATION in order to make those kinds of FINAL decisions about whether to try it or not.
See the Twisp report. Similar ‘circumstances’. Once they DID know EXACTLY where to TRY it… they DID decide to TRY it ( supposedly EIGHT TIMES ).
What is beyond ironic is that the same man who ignored them for 2 minutes and was then unable to ascertain that one critical piece of information that was needed ( their EXACT location )… was then the man recorded on the radio saying ( clearly ) “We’re gonna bring you the VLAT, okay?”.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> 2. Why did Burfiend tell him Marsh that if he didn’t have a strong idea where they were?
They did NOT have a ‘strong idea’. Because Burfiend ignored them and lost the opportunity to get that ‘strong idea’… they only had a ‘general idea’.
But as we hear in the recordings… they kept trying to make up for both Granite Mountain’s and Burfiend’s fuck-up regarding NOT establishing an exact location when they had the best chance to supply it ( GM ) or ascertain it ( Burfiend )… and they still THOUGHT that might get that information at any moment.
If you listen to recordings… with Burfiend desperately trying to get Marsh to tell him when he “heard the airplanes”… you have to assume that if Marsh HAD radioed back “I hear you… you are directly OVER us RIGHT NOW”… that they would have considered that a ‘pretty strong location’.
What they would have done then is anyone’s guess… but if Marsh HAD answered Burfiend’s queries and said he “heard the planes”… they actually MIGHT have tried some kind of drop just based on that scant information.
Why else would they have been asking those questions of Marsh if they thought that any kind of emergency drop was totally ‘impossible’ down there?
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> 3. Burfiend is heard talking about that valley and the smoke, and it will
>> be hard on us but we will give it a shot. Who was he telling that to??
We still don’t know.
Hulburd’s M2U00265 video ( the original ‘Helmet Cam’ video ) supposedly ‘begins’ at exactly 4:49:00 PM…. with Steed’s first emergency call coming at +13 seconds ( 4:39:13 PM ).
The PREVIOUS Hulburd video ( M2U00264 ) apparently ENDS at exactly 4:37:00 PM.
SIDENOTE: It remains pretty ‘odd’ that the M2U00264 video ends EXACTLY on a ‘minute’ mark ( 4:37:00 exactly ) and then the next M2U00265 begins on EXACTLY a ‘minute’ mark as well ( 4:39:00 exactly )… but that’s for another post. I believe it is stilll perfectly possible that some video content was either ‘chopped off’ the END of M2U00264 or content was chopped off the START of M2U00265… or ( perhaps ) BOTH.
Either way… that leaves exactly TWO minutes of ‘reality’ missing from Hulburd’s video(s).
There is no ‘recording’ of what was transpiring on the radio for those TWO ( exact ) minutes between 4:37:00 PM and 4:39:00 PM.
All we know is that when video M2U00264 ends… that ‘radio conversation’ between John Burfiend had NOT ‘started’ yet… but 2 minutes later… when video M2U00265 starts… he is then ‘finishing’ that mysterious conversation about what they would ‘try’ to do with the ‘Air Support’.
NO investigators ( that we know of ) ever actually ASKED John Burfiend exactly WHO this was he was talking to between 4:37 and 4:39 PM… or WHAT that conversation was really about other than that the tail end ( which we can hear ) was obviously about where they would try to do retardant drops.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> 4. Burfiend also states that the type 1 helicopters have been ordered back?
>> So he was aware that the location of the GMH and Div A was gonna be hard
>> to reach with the v lat?
At that moment ( after he was ordered by OPS1 Todd Abel to stop ignoring those radio calls )… I really don’t think they had any idea EXACTLY where GM was… and so it was just an ‘all hands on deck” situation until that could be determined.
And they really did seem to think that despite the already-lost opportunities to ascertain their location that they were still going to ‘achieve’ that within the next few minutes. That’s why all the calls from Burfiend to Marsh regarding “Tell us when you can HEAR the aircraft”.
They were maintaining ‘hope’ that… at any moment… they WOULD be able to ‘ascertain’ their exact location and ( perhaps ) make emergency drops.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> 5. I am going with this. Burfiend was aware of what was transpiring prior
>> to the call out in front of the flaming front. I do think it is possible he was
>> just being informed at the beginning of the helmet cam video. But by who?
I am with you on this one, calvin ( always have been ).
I, too, believe that it is perfectly possible the ‘tail end’ of that conversation we hear at exactly 4:39 PM about where they would be attempting to make retardant drops ( but that it was going to be hard ‘because of that valley’ – Burfiend’s exact words ) was simply the END of an actual radio conversation between John Bufriend and ‘Division Alpha’ Eric Marsh himself.
And I believe what we might be hearing there is also the END of a conversation that could have STARTED with ‘Divs A’ supposedly making that “That’s where we want the retardant” radio call at ( supposedly ) 4:37 PM.
Marsh could have made that call to ‘Bravo 33 / Air Attack’ ( John Burfiend ) just seconds after the end of Hulburd’s M2U00264 video.
And if Marsh DID make a ‘radio call’ like that… that could not possibly just have been the ‘end of it’.
Burfiend would have most likely ‘acknowledged’ that radio call and then CONTINUED that radio conversation in order to be sure he understood what was being asked of them.
Now… whether or not ‘Granite Mountain’ was ever part of that 4:37 to 4:39 PM radio conversation between Marsh and Burfiend remains a mystery.
John Burfiend has NEVER said ( nor was he ever even asked? ) WHO he was having that conversation with… much less what the entire content of it was.
So even if that entire radio conversation HAD been directly between ‘Divs A’ Marsh and ‘John Burfiend’…. I think it remains possible that GM was never discussed… and so when the emergency calls hit the radio… Burfiend still chose to ignore THOSE radio calls for his own reasons ( like not wanting to respond to being ‘yelled’ at or to dignify ‘bad radio behavior’ with a response, or something like that ).
So John Burfiend has ALWAYS sworn that sometime around 4:37 PM… ‘Division A’ Marsh ‘called them’ ( on the A2G channel ) and said “That’s it. That’s where we want the retardant”.
And John Burfiend has ALWAYS been ‘recorded’ finishing a conversation with someone at exactly 4:39 PM about ‘where to drop retardant’….
But no one has EVER put ‘2 and 2’ together and established whether or not was was RECORDED was the END of John Burfiend actually discussing ‘retardant drops’ with Eric Marsh himself…. just 13 seconds before Jesse Steed’s first ’emergency’ radio call.
But I’m still willing to believe that is EXACTLY what we are ‘hearing’ at the start of video M2U00265. The END of the ‘conversation’ about ‘retardant drops’ between Eric Marsh and John Burfiend.
WTKTT,
You posted: “… there has ALWAYS been all kinds of evidence ( radio recordings, testimony, etc. ) that IF the had ACTUALLY KNOWN where those men were… that they WOULD have ( possibly ) decided to make ’emergency retardant’ drops.”
“No question.”
Once again, on the Family Staff Ride at the Fatality Site, Tom French told all of us present that a drop in the YH Fire ‘bowl’ would have been “IMPOSSIBLE” based on terrain and weather. So then, your post that “there has ALWAYS been all kinds of evidence ( radio recordings, testimony, etc. ) that IF the had ACTUALLY KNOWN where those men were… that they WOULD have ( possibly ) decided to make ’emergency retardant’ drops” is only true if it relates ONLY to “radio recordings [and] testimony.” The ” etc.”has NOT been proven yet.
You also posted: “SIDENOTE: It remains pretty ‘odd’ that the M2U00264 video ends EXACTLY on a ‘minute’ mark ( 4:37:00 exactly ) and then the next M2U00265 begins on EXACTLY a ‘minute’ mark as well ( 4:39:00 exactly )… but that’s for another post. I believe it is stilll perfectly possible that some video content was either ‘chopped off’ the END of M2U00264 or content was chopped off the START of M2U00265… or ( perhaps ) BOTH.”
Yes, this is definitely something we agree on.
You also posted: “There is no ‘recording’ of what was transpiring on the radio for those TWO ( exact ) minutes between 4:37:00 PM and 4:39:00 PM.”
There is no PUBLIC, published recording “for those TWO ( exact ) minutes between 4:37:00 PM and 4:39:00 PM.”
Pretty good guess. That is EXACTLY what we are ‘hearing’ at the start of video M2U00265. The END of the ‘conversation’ about ‘retardant drops’ between Eric Marsh and John Burfiend.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 8, 2016 at 2:14 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Once again, on the Family Staff Ride at the Fatality Site,
>> Tom French told all of us present that a drop in the YH
>> Fire ‘bowl’ would have been “IMPOSSIBLE” based on terrain
>> and weather.
At 4:39 PM… when Jesse Steed’s first ’emergency’ radio call hit the A2G channel… Thomas Burfiend had, in fact, finally made it down to the south side of Yarnell and had, in fact, been ‘flying around’ down there for at least a full 10 minutes.
He had already performed a ‘drop’ down there with one SEAT… and was then ‘lining up’ another drop with the newly-returned-and-fully-loaded VLAT 910 piloted by Kevin Hopf.
His right seater… John Burfiend… who was assigned to monitoring the Air-To-Ground channel… did NOT tell him about the emergency radio traffic for a full 2 minutes…. until AFTER Burfiend himself had chosen to IGNORE those radio calls for all that time and then been ORDERED by OPS1 Todd Abel to STOP ignoring those desperate men and RESPOND to those calls for help.
Even then… and even KNOWING the ‘terrain and the weather’… the MOMENT Burfiend finally got around to informing French what was actually happening… Thomas French IMMEDIATELY notified VLAT pilot Kevin Hopf to ‘prepare’ for an emergency drop by setting coverage level to ‘6’ and to ‘standby’ for the ‘drop sequence’. Pilot Kevin Hopf ( also fully aware at that moment of the ‘terrain and the weather’ in that area ) also IMMEDIATELY acknowledged those ‘orders’ from Thomas French and expressed his willingness to do whatever might need to be done by telling French he was going to ride-his-6 and “tag along behind” French from that moment onward.
Thomas French then also IMMEDIATELY ordered Helicopters to RETURN to the area and ‘grab some water’ and he was immediately ready to put them to work making ’emergency drops’, if possible… still knowing perfectly well what the ‘terrain and the weather’ looked like.
Thomas French and Kevin Hopf and everyone else involved were IMMEDIATELY preparing for an ’emergency drop’… and John Burfiend even told Eric Marsh…
“We’re gonna bring YOU the VLAT… Okay?”
The only thing they were missing to complete the final decision making was a LOCATION.
‘Bravo 33’ then kept desperately trying to ascertain their exact location by asking DIVSA to tell them when he could HEAR the Aircraft.
That was the only ‘option’ they had left because…
1. Granite Mountain had neither the good sense and/or the training to SUPPLY their exact location as part of their ‘distress’ calls, without waiting for ‘permission to speak’ from someone who was ignoring them.
3. John Burfiend threw away the only opportunity to ‘ascertain’ their exact location by choosing to ‘ignore’ them.
No emergency drop(s) were ever attempted because there was never a chance to even decide if the ‘terrain and the weather’ might have prevented it… because they NEVER KNEW exactly WHERE that ‘drop location’ even might have been that afternoon.
Was all of THIS made clear to just that handful of ‘family members’ that were present on that Staff Ride?
Somehow… I doubt it.
They just told the family members what they wanted to hear ( and only what they wanted them to KNOW ).
WTKTT,
Once again, on the Family Staff Ride at the Fatality Site, Tom French told all of us present that a drop in the YH Fire ‘bowl’ would have been “IMPOSSIBLE” based on terrain and weather.
You posted: “Was all of THIS made clear to just that handful of ‘family members’ that were present on that Staff Ride?”
Yes, “all of THIS was made clear to just that handful of ‘family members’ that were present on that Staff Ride”
You posted: “Somehow… I doubt it.”
That is all up to you.
You also posted: “They just told the family members what they wanted to hear ( and only what they wanted them to KNOW ).”
That could be, I don’t know. I just told you what we all heard that day.
It’s kinda funny, that even when I heard something right from someone’s mouth, you refuse to believe it, if it doesn’t square with what you want to believe.
WTKTT,
Posting this here because out of room down below and didn’t want it lost in the weeds.
You posted: “That pilot put himself and his Air Crew and the WFF’s on the ground IN DANGER flying blindly in that situation.”
“That is your ‘absolute’ opinion, apparently. No wiggle room.”
Yes, indeed, that is my ‘absolute’ PROFESSIONAL opinion, NOT apparently. And yes, NO wiggle room.
“I have already told YOU it is above MY paygrade to say that is ‘absolutely’ the case.”
I know you are a lot smarter than that. It’s just a cop-out as far as I’m concerned.
You also posted: “But see above… if YOU are ‘absolutely’ sure about what you are saying… then “look up” and you will see more “Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes” being ACCEPTED and even ENCOURAGED by WFF management.”
I see that. And I posted a reply to it. Anything else?
WTKTT
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-344203
Reply to Robert the Second post on
August 8, 2016 at 3:09 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT…
>> Once again, on the Family Staff Ride at the Fatality Site,
>> Tom French told all of us present that a drop in the YH
>> Fire ‘bowl’ would have been “IMPOSSIBLE” based on
>> terrain and weather.
RTS…
Once again… at the TIME it was ACTUALLY happening… with no ‘family members’ present to talk to… Thomas French IMMEDIATELY informed VLAT pilot Kevin Hopf to switch to a coverage level ‘6’ and to standby for the ‘drop sequence’ for an ’emergency drop’… and pilot Kevin Hopf also IMMEDIATELY agreed to do that… and indicated he was prepared to do whatever might be necessary and he would just tag along directly behind Thomas French. ( All recorded in radio captures ).
He had already been flying that area for 10+ minutes and had already performed a SEAT drop in that (quote) “terrain and weather”.
If he didn’t think it *might* have been possible to make an emergency drop… then how do you explain his OWN directives to VLAT pilot Kevin Hopf the moment French was advised of the emergency.
Listen to the recordings.
They weren’t ‘ordering a pizza’.
They were doing everything they could to get READY to make an ’emergency drop’… even ALREADY being totally aware of the “terrain and the weather” there in the Yarnell area.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> You posted: “Was all of THIS made clear to just that
>> handful of ‘family members’ that were present on
>> that Staff Ride?”
>>
>> Yes, “all of THIS was made clear to just that handful
>> of ‘family members’ that were present on that Staff Ride”
You must have misunderstood the question.
I meant were the family members fully advised that because John Burfiend had ignored their loved ones’ desperate radio calls for 2 minutes… until finally being ORDERED to respond to them ( by OPS1 Todd Abel )… that the opportunity to ascertain their exact location and even BEGIN to decide if a ‘drop’ would be possible had been lost?
Were they fully advised that there had BEEN absolutely no ‘final decision’ about whether to attempt any drops… because at the time it was all happening they ended up with no fucking idea WHERE to even attempt it?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It’s kinda funny, that even when I heard something
>> right from someone’s mouth, you refuse to believe it,
>> if it doesn’t square with what you want to believe.
I never once said that what YOU are reporting someone said from some ‘Staff Ride’ isn’t what that someone probably said.
That probably IS exactly what Thomas French would have been saying to that small group of family members that day.
I’ve just been pointing out that the same person who SAID this was also the one who ( at the time it was happening ) didn’t have a fucking CLUE even WHERE this ‘impossible drop’ might have needed to take place.
And this same person who SAID this is RECORDED in radio captures doing everything he could to PREPARE his resources for ’emergency drops’.
The only thing that was preventing a final decision from being made about even attempting them was the fact that GM had neglected to report an exact LOCATION… and John Burfiend had then ignored their calls for help for 2 minutes and the chance to ascertain that exact LOCATION was also subsequently lost.
So yes… I do actually BELIEVE you when you attempt to report what some other person said to family members on some Staff Ride.
I can actually ‘imagine’ him actually ‘saying’ what you say he said.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Thomas French IMMEDIATELY informed VLAT pilot Kevin Hopf to switch to a coverage level ‘6’ and to standby for the ‘drop sequence’ for an ’emergency drop’… and pilot Kevin Hopf also IMMEDIATELY agreed to do that… and indicated he was prepared to do whatever might be necessary and he would just tag along directly behind Thomas French. ( All recorded in radio captures ).”
‘He had already been flying that area for 10+ minutes and had already performed a SEAT drop in that (quote) “terrain and weather”.’
A SEAT is definitely NOT a VLAT, so that is a False Equivalence Fallacy.
Here is a SEAT image.
http://www.airtractor.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/aircraft_medium/planes/air-tractor-802f-1.jpg
Here is a VLAT image for comparison.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/k-dUGl6_t6c/hqdefault.jpg
Just a wee bit of size difference I would say, so NO VALID comparison that because a SEAT had just dropped, then a VLAT could also drop.
Using what I call ‘Weasel Words,’ You posted: “That PROBABLY (EMPHASIS ADDED) IS exactly what Thomas French would have been saying to that small group of family members that day.”
NO, that IS exactly what Thomas French WAS saying to that small group of family members that day.
NO ‘probably’ about it.
WTKTT,
You also posted: “HE (VLAT PILOT HOPF) WAS PREPARED TO DO WHATEVER MIGHT BE NECESSARY, and he would just tag along directly behind Thomas French. ( All recorded in radio captures ).” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Copy that EXCEPT there is a key word missing in there as far as I am concerned.
The word ‘SAFELY’ as in ‘HE (VLAT PILOT HOPF) WAS PREPARED TO DO WHATEVER MIGHT BE [SAFELY] NECESSARY’ to accomplish the mission.
To do ‘WHATEVER’ might be necessary is NOT the same thing.
There is still every likelihood that, IAOI they had recovered from both GM and Burfiend’s blunders AND had ascertained an exact drop location… and they now had enough INFORMATION to actually ( only then ) decide if an ’emergency drop’ should take place…
…that VLAT 910 pilot Kevin Hopf would have, himself, decided there was no way to accomplish it without crashing the DC10.
When we hear him AGREEING to follow French’s instructions and be ‘right on his 6’ and ‘tagging along’ for whatever might need to happen… I’m sure that didn’t include instructions like…
…”Why don’t you just crash the plane near where we think they are and maybe the retardant will slop over there and save them”.
Of COURSE whatever might have needed to happen was still going to have been based on not automatically adding to the ‘body count’ that day.
But that DECISION was never made that day.
That entire “do we attempt it or not” decision making process was totally short-circuited because of the fact they had no fucking idea WHERE to ‘attempt’ it.
Let’s say that Jesse Steed had been following standard MAYDAY protocol and his very first ’emergency’ radio call went something like this…
“MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY… this is Granite Mountain. We are 640 yards west of the Boulder Springs Ranch and directly in front of the advancing flamefront. We need Air support immediately. Does anyone copy?”
And then let’s say pilot Kevin Hopf immediately told Thomas French…
“I was flying down here earlier this afternoon and I know EXACTLY where that is”.
The next thing that would have happened would most likely have been Thomas French then honestly ASKING pilot Kevin Hopf…
“Do you think you can make any kind of drop there under these conditions?”
At that point… Kevin Hopf would have still had the ‘option’ to say “Yes”…. or “No’.
But something tells me this Kevin Hopf guy would have said “Yes… I think I can”.
But ALL of that little bit of ‘imagineering’ is totally moot… because ( as we all know )… Granite Mountain did NOT have the good sense or the training to make that kind of proper MAYDAY call… and John Burfiend then wasted those critical 2 minutes where their location *might* have been ascertained because he was refusing to even answer their requests to just “speak” to him.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
August 8, 2016 at 5:55 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Just a wee bit of size difference I would say, so
>> NO VALID comparison that because a SEAT
>> had just dropped, then a VLAT could also drop.
Ummm… forgetting the fact, for a moment, that what Thomas French was ACTUALLY doing when Steed’s first ’emergency’ radio call showed up was a ‘show me’ for the VLAT right where he had just dropped the SEAT ( which means he most certainly DID know a ‘VLAT could also drop’ there )…
…the point that you obviously ‘missed’ up above was that Thomas French most certainly HAD already been ‘flying around’ there in Yarnell for at least 10 minutes prior to the emergency radio traffic.
He most certainly WAS fully ‘aware’ of the ‘conditions’ down there prior to being made aware of the ’emergency situation’… .yet still his first instincts were to tell ALL of his resources to prepare for ’emergency drops’.
He did NOT ( as you seem to be imagining ) turn to all his resources and just say…
“I am declaring any/all emergency drops to be IMPOSSIBLE… so nothing we can do for these morons, folks. Everyone please go about your business.”
What REALLY happened was the exact OPPOSITE.
WTKTT
Preparing and Accomplishing Are Two Different things.
REALITY IS A BITCH–SAFETY IS A PRIORITY.
WHERE IN THAT MILE AND A HALF FROM THE REST LOCATION WAS THE CREW?
ON A RIDGE IN THE CANYON?
SMOKE COVERING THE AREA GM NEVER GAVE A COORDINANCE AND FAILED IN COMMUNICATIONS.
HE GOT NO MORE INFORMATION FROM MARSH HOW WAS HE TO EXICUTE ANY THING?.
WHERE WAS HE TO DROP? THE SOUTH END OF THE FIRE????????????????????????
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 8, 2016 at 8:21 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT… You posted:
>> “… we really still do NOT know exactly when those men actually died.”
>>
>> And you point is what?
My point is/was that if you ( and/or anyone else ) think that following those 2 full wasted minutes when John Burfiend was purposely ignoring those men came the moment they actually died… that there is still no proof that was the reality that day.
There might have been much MORE time involved.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It does NOT matter what time they actually died because the dramatic
>> Airtanker rescue that you keep insisting on would have been IMPOSSIBLE
>> under those conditions.
Thanks ( again ) for YOUR ( non-Pilot ) opinion on the matter… but you really are having a ‘block’ about the actual point of all this, aren’t you?
I will tell you one more time…
There is NO EVIDENCE that Thomas French and the real pilot of VLAT 910 ( who wasn’t YOU ) ever actually HAD a ‘conversation’ between THEMSELVES ( who are the only two that mattered that afternoon ) about whether THEY considered an ’emergency drop’ to be either ‘possible’ or ‘impossible’.
Why?
Because before they could have even considered doing such a thing… they needed to know WHERE they would have been being asked to consider doing it.
It might have been anywhere ‘down there’… and even in a place that was clear of any ‘terrain’ issues… leaving just “do we fly through the smoke” issues.
They DID NOT KNOW where to even TRY any kind of ’emergency drop’.
And WHY was that?
1. Because Granite Mountain didn’t have the either the good sense or the actual ‘training’ to report their exact location without waiting for some guy in an airplane to give them “permission” to speak.
2. And because John Burfiend had ignored them for 2 full minutes before being ORDERED to do so by OPS1 Todd Abel… and was then unable to ascertain their exact location BECAUSE he had wasted those 2 full minutes.
And I suppose… next… you will come back and say that was NOT a ‘Direct Order’ from OPS1 Todd Abel to John Burfiend to go ahead and ‘answer’ those radio calls after having ignored them for 2 minutes?
If you feel inclined to do so… please listen to the radio recording again before you do.
Followup…
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 8, 2016 at 9:54 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> It does NOT matter which Airtanker I am referring to.
>> It was an IMPOSSIBLE drop on the YH Fire and an EXTREMELY
>> RISKY multiple drops on the Twisp Canyon Fire.
>>
>> That pilot put himself and his Air Crew and the WFF’s on the
>> ground flying blindly in that situation.
>>
>> Brave? Yes. Heroic? No way. Extremely Stupid? Yes indeed.
>>
>> That pilot put himself and his Air Crew and the WFF’s on the
>> ground IN DANGER flying blindly in that situation.
Well… then according to US Forestry ( in general ) and USFS employee and Twisp CRP-Lead Investigator John Phipps ( specifically ) and his ‘Status Report’ regarding the ‘Twisp’ fire…
…that is AOK behavior ( at any time ).
Sounds like you need to take it up with them… before something terrible happens in THAT part of the WFF world.
In other words… ( according to your view of the situation )…
1. Absolute proof that there is more ‘risky behavior’ happening on a regular basis in that part of the WFF world… and more “bad decisions with good outcomes” taking place.
2. Absolute proof that no one in WFF management who COULD do something about it gives a shit.
Chasing down “Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes” behavior and “Normalization of Deviance” is ( supposedly ) YOUR ‘thing’, right?
Well… sounds like you need to just “look up” and you will see the same thing.
“Accidents waiting to happen”… and no one cares.
You need to realize you do not know what you are talking about.
My last statement on this discussion on Air Tankers.
2 Minuets would not have changed the out come. 5 minuets would not have changed the out come. For a whole host of reasons.
40 minutes could have changed the outcome!
I understand that pilots possess special skills and training and deserve our respect.
What I don’t understand is the lack of focus to the overall objective of being as effective as possible and going the extra mile. There is a lack of urgency and focus-an attitude of “not my problem”.
WTKTT,
It does NOT matter how much time they had or did not have, an Airtanker drop in the YH Fire ‘bowl’ would have been IMPOSSIBLE.
You posted: “They DID NOT KNOW where to even TRY any kind of ’emergency drop’.”
And even if they did, it was an IMPOSSIBLE task even in clam weather. IMPOSSIBLE!
You really are having a ‘block’ about the actual point of all this, aren’t you?
As far as the Twisp Canyon Fire and the CRAP Investigation goes, I have a really hard time accepting that this unsafe VLAT Airtanker pilot unsafe actions, attitude, and behavior is acceptable. It is already in the Watch Out #19 realm but now with a much more dangerous twist.
Even you admit that the VLAT pilots were ‘COWBOYS,’ a well known term for those that are careless and/or reckless.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) August 8, 2016 at 12:27 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>>
>> It does NOT matter how much time they had or did not
>> have, an Airtanker drop in the YH Fire ‘bowl’ would have
>> been IMPOSSIBLE.
Then why don’t we hear John Burfiend telling Eric Marsh ( at that moment when they would have been the last words Eric Mash ever heard )…
“”Sorry… it’s IMPOSSIBLE to bring you Air Support. You are on your own. Good luck”.
We don’t ( hear that ).
What we hear instead ( and as calvin pointed out, also pretty much the last words Eric Marsh ever heard )…
3:41:42 PM
( John Burfiend – to DIVSA Eric Marsh ): We’re gonna bring the VLAT, okay?
And then they tried desperately to ascertain their location by asking them to just listen for airplanes… because Burfiend himself had WASTED the better opportunity to obtain that information by ignoring them for 2 full minutes.
The recordings don’t lie.
They were IMMEDIATELY and FULLY ‘preparing’ to make emergency drops… even though they could already SEE and already KNEW what the current ‘conditions’ were ‘down there’.
The only thing they were missing to make any ‘final’ decisions with regards to the ‘drops’ was some exact LOCATION where to attempt it ( which they never ascertained ).
>> RTS also said
>>
>> You posted: “They DID NOT KNOW where to even TRY
>> any kind of ’emergency drop’.”
>>
>> And even if they did, it was an IMPOSSIBLE task even in
>> clam weather. IMPOSSIBLE!
Then tell THEM that. ( See above and go listen to the recordings ).
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> As far as the Twisp Canyon Fire and the CRAP Investigation
>> goes, I have a really hard time accepting that this unsafe
>> VLAT Airtanker pilot unsafe actions, attitude, and behavior
>> is acceptable. It is already in the Watch Out #19 realm but
>> now with a much more dangerous twist.
Okay… so what are you going to do about it?
You’re still ‘double dipping’ and actually ‘on the rosters’ as a valid SAFETY OFFICER in the Wildland Firefighting industry… correct?
Don’t ‘Safety Officers’ have the ability to control the ‘Air Show’ as well?
If NOT… then WHY NOT?… and who DOES have control of that?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Even you admit that the VLAT pilots were ‘COWBOYS,’ a
>> well known term for those that are careless and/or reckless.
I’m not sure that’s the exact ‘meaning’ when using that phrase.
I’m also not sure where even any ‘connotations’ crept in for that word.
Cowboys ( and CowGirls ) are, in reality, accomplished professionals who, while doing a pretty unique job, know their own limitations and the limitations of their primary equipment ( Horses, ropes, etc. ) and they know how to ‘get the job done’ but within the ‘limitation’ and go home at the end of the day.
But I must admit… even that video YOU posted of a VLAT drop makes one tend to shout…
YeeeeeeeHAWWWWW!
Correction for above.
I left one ( important ) word out of what John Burfiend was actually RECORDED saying to Eric Marsh at 3:41:42 PM on June 30, 2013.
What he ACTUALLY said was…
3:41:42 PM
( John Burfiend – to DIVSA Eric Marsh ):
“We’re gonna bring YOU the VLAT, okay?”
WTKTT,
I will agree to what he told Marsh and the GMHS, about bring them a VLAT, however, every experienced WFF Supervisor KNOWS OR SHOULD KNOW that one CANNOT count on air support, NO MATTER WHAT ONE IS TOLD.
Maybe Burfiend realized that it was all hopeless and he told them that just to mollify him and the GMHS and calm them down in spite of their obvious hopeless situation.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on August 8, 2016 at 2:38 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Maybe Burfiend realized that it was all hopeless
>> and he told them that just to mollify him and
>> the GMHS and calm them down in spite of
>> their obvious hopeless situation.
Wow… I didn’t know you were actually even capable of ever doing any ‘imagineering’. Good for you.
Or maybe Burfiend KNEW that the man sitting next to him had ALREADY told the VLAT pilot ( Kevin Hopf ) to switch to coverage level 6, and get ready for the ‘drop sequence’ for an emergency retardant drop.
( All recorded in the Air-To-Air channel captures ).
…and that if they COULD ( then ) ascertain their exact location ( which Burfiend had already fucked up )… they actually MIGHT try to help them?
Your ‘imagineering’ only goes but so far… though… doesn’t it?
WTKTT,
You posted: “… and that if they COULD ( then ) ascertain their exact location ( which Burfiend had already fucked up )… they actually MIGHT try to help them?”
Marsh and the GMHS F**KED UP by NOT telling AA their exact location, that was Marsh’s and the GMHS responsibility, NOT AA to ‘find them.’
I am a REALIST, NOT A DRAMATIST, so my ‘imagineering’ does have it’s limits.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
August 8, 2016 at 5:28 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Marsh and the GMHS F**KED UP by
>> NOT telling AA their exact location,
They certainly did… but whoever had NOT trained them how to properly declare an emergency is also at fault there.
That’s the kind of thing someone has to make sure you train and train and train ( and then train some more on )… so that when it’s happening for real and the adrenalin is actually pumping you don’t “fuck it up”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> that was Marsh’s and the GMHS responsibility,
>> NOT AA to ‘find them.’
And once again… .your desire to just CRUCIFY Granite Mountain ( alone ) and always act as an ‘apologist’ for ‘management’ and others in fire command is showing.
“WTKTT,
This is YOUR own post calling the VLAT pilots ‘cowboys.’
“WantsToKnowTheTruth says
August 6, 2016 at 4:32 pm
That looks pretty routine to me ( for these VLAT cowboys ).”
It sure looks like you yourself called those VLAT pilots, “COWBOYS.”
WTKTT,
Here’s your ‘cowboys’ post for your edification.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-344022
Reply to Robert the Second post on
August 8, 2016 at 5:34 pm
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It sure looks like you yourself called those VLAT
>> pilots, “COWBOYS.”
Where did I say I did NOT say that?
Yes… that’s what I said.
But it was YOU who came back with YOUR own ‘definition’ of what YOU think that word means.
And yes… I said that when you look at videos like the one you posted receently it’s pretty hard to not to say….
YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHAWWWWWW!
…while watching them “do what they do”.
But ( unlike YOU )… I don’t also AUTOMATICALLY think that every time I use that word I am AUTOMATICALLY also saying I find everything they do to be ( your definition ) “careless” and “reckless”.
Sometimes a ‘Cowboy’ is just a ‘Cowboy’.
And as I have told you before… it is ABOVE my paygrade to look at these videos and say whether any of these ‘fly boys’ are being ‘reckless’ and ‘careless’ enough to either lose their licenses to fly OR at least stop working for taxpayer dollars.
US Forestry seems perfectly happy with them… as is.
WTKTT,
I posted this below.
“As far as the Twisp Canyon Fire and the CRAP Investigation goes, I have a really hard time accepting that this unsafe VLAT Airtanker pilot unsafe actions, attitude, and behavior is acceptable. It is already in the Watch Out #19 realm but now with a much more dangerous twist.”
“Even you admit that the VLAT pilots were ‘COWBOYS,’ a well known term for those that are careless and/or reckless.”
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) August 8, 2016 at 2:22 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> I posted this below.
And I posted the following ‘above’ ( in response to your original posting above that you just repeated again )…
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> “Even you admit that the VLAT pilots were ‘COWBOYS,’
>> a well known term for those that are careless and/or
>> reckless.”
I’m not sure that’s the exact ‘meaning’ when using that phrase.
I’m also not sure where even any ‘connotations’ crept in for that word.
Cowboys ( and CowGirls ) are, in reality, accomplished professionals who, while doing a pretty unique job, know their own limitations and the limitations of their primary equipment ( Horses, ropes, etc. ) and they know how to ‘get the job done’ but within the ‘limitation’ and go home at the end of the day.
But I must admit… even that video YOU posted of a VLAT drop makes one tend to shout…
YeeeeeeeHAWWWWW!
Well said !
TYPO up above.
I did not mean to imply that OPS1 Todd Abel had ordered John Burfiend to ingnore the Granite Mountain distress calls.
John Burfiend decided to do that all on his own.
OPS1 Todd Abel was the one who was TRYING to get John Burfiend to respond throughout that sequence… and OPS1 Todd Abel was then the one who finally had to just ORDER John Burfiend to stop ignoring those distress calls and RESPOND to those poor men.
So the section above SHOULD have read like this…
———————————————————————
They DID NOT KNOW where to even TRY any kind of ’emergency drop’.
And WHY was that?
1. Because Granite Mountain didn’t have the either the good sense or the actual ‘training’ to report their exact location without waiting for some guy in an airplane to give them “permission” to speak.
2. And because John Burfiend had ignored them for 2 full minutes before finally being ORDERED to answer them by OPS1 Todd Abel… and Burfiend was then unable to ascertain their exact location BECAUSE he had wasted those 2 full minutes.
And I suppose… next… you will come back and say that was NOT a ‘Direct Order’ from OPS1 Todd Abel to John Burfiend to go ahead and ‘answer’ those radio calls after having ignored them for 2 minutes?
If you feel inclined to do so… please listen to the radio recording again before you do.
———————————————————————————-
Something that keeps getting repeated on here needs to be clarified..
The story goes that when Rory Collins was timexed and had to leave, he turned air attack over to French and Burfiend and ORDERED them to head towards Yarnell.
This is not how it works people… If the assigned Air Attack leaves he hands total control over to the next plane, who will either continue with existing objectives and mission, or adjust to a new priority as the fire and scenario changes.
Just because Collins said that French/Burfiend should go down to Yarnell next does not mean that it is written in stone… 2 Minutes after Collins left the fire could have changed direction etc, if French/Burfiend had blindly followed the Collins “order” to go down the East side, the fire could have turned and gone a different direction and people would be second guessing their actions of putting drops down the East side (I doubt that it would be questioned though, as it is the only area that had any values at risk).
I will pull a Joy here and use caps lock to get my point across…….
WHEN AN AIR ATTACK OFFICER HANDS OVER AN ASSIGNMENT, IT IS NOT AN ORDER. THE NEW AA HAS THE FREEDOM TO LAY RETARDANT, AS HE SEES FIT, TO MEET THE OBJECTIVES, WHERE POSSIBLE. HE HAS TOTAL CONTROL AND OWNERSHIP….
I am not even gonna comment on the ongoing debate about emergency drops from a VLAT to save the crew, that is just Hollywood BS, (What was the movie with Dryfus? “Always”??)…
Another consideration here is that IF they tried an emergency drop, they could have KILLED the crew with its impact… Water weighs 10 lbs to the gallon, retardant about 14… You launch 5000 gallons at 120 mph, while flying blind in a smoke column (they would have no real way to guess their drop height above ground, and it could smash people….
I have seen retardant drops break off a whole grove of 24″ Douglas Fir Trees 20 feet up, because the pilot was from Northern Alberta and could not figure out how tall the trees were. He thought they were little piddly things when they were actually 100 feet tall..
This AA stuff has been beaten to death… That’s not the way that the real fire world works… Maybe on the big screen, but not in reality…
rocksteady,
I thank you also for being a Voice of Reason here.
“If the assigned Air Attack leaves he hands total control over to the next plane, who will either continue with existing objectives and mission, or adjust to a new priority as the fire and scenario changes.”
“WHEN AN AIR ATTACK OFFICER HANDS OVER AN ASSIGNMENT, IT IS NOT AN ORDER. THE NEW AA HAS THE FREEDOM TO LAY RETARDANT, AS HE SEES FIT, TO MEET THE OBJECTIVES, WHERE POSSIBLE. HE HAS TOTAL CONTROL AND OWNERSHIP….”
“This AA stuff has been beaten to death… That’s not the way that the real fire world works… Maybe on the big screen, but not in reality…”
Well Said Rocksteady.
I have tried to explain over and over most of what you said.
I was done.—- Some would like to set the blame on air attack when it was an impossible Action by the time the winds hit 20 MPH and the fire headed south with spotting.
LOCATION—-TIMING —-WEATHER
Reply to rocksteady post on August 8, 2016 at 8:12 am
>> rocksteady said…
>>
>> Something that keeps getting repeated on here needs to be clarified..
>>
>> If the assigned Air Attack leaves he hands total control over to the
>> next plane, who will either continue with existing objectives and
>> mission, or adjust to a new priority as the fire and scenario changes.
Actually… that doesn’t need any ‘clarification’ at all.
It is perfectly OBVIOUS that is the way Thomas French saw it…
but you left out one other ‘option’…
That he was then free to do whatever HE wanted to do, and ignore whatever
he had AGREED to do in conversations with ( and when he was the subordinate of ) the previous Air Attack.
We still do NOT know the “full story” regarding WHY… at 3:50 PM… Thomas French agreed with the CURRENT ‘Air Attack’ that Yarnell now NEEDED to be the ‘focus’ of the ‘Air Support’ ( and he said he was “Headed that way” )… but then when that Air Attack left the fire… he ignored all that and just ( apparently ) continued doing whatever HE wanted to do ( for the next 40 minutes ).
Or WHY, then, he would admit ( over the radio ) to the NEXT incoming Air Attack that by the time he did get around to the Yarnell side of the fire… he wasn’t able to do what he really wanted to do because the smoke column was now ‘laying down’ and preventing him from dong so.
By the way… the radio recordings for that NEXT ‘Air Attack’ handoff actually refute what you are trying to say here. Rusty Warbis ( Bravo 3 ) took the time during the handoff to specifically ASK that CURRENT Air Attack over Yarnell ( Bravo 33 ) what HE would LIKE him to ‘continue doing’… and then he proceeded to do just that when ‘Bravo 33’ handed-off to HIM.
ADOSH was never ALLOWED to interview ANY of the following ‘flyboys’…
Rory Collins, Thomas French, John Burfiend or Clint Cross.
And we still don’t know what the story is regarding the ATGS people that were SUPPOSEDLY there in Yarnell that day… and had been since 11:00 AM.
There was ( supposedly ) a full contingent of ATGS support people on the ground there in Yarnell that day ( including the mysterious Dan Sullivan )… but there is still no evidence these men were involved, in ANY WAY, with either coordinating or directing ANY of the fixed-wing or rotor-based Air Support that day.
WTKTT,
As rocksteady posted: “WHEN AN AIR ATTACK OFFICER HANDS OVER AN ASSIGNMENT, IT IS NOT AN ORDER. THE NEW AA HAS THE FREEDOM TO LAY RETARDANT, AS HE SEES FIT, TO MEET THE OBJECTIVES, WHERE POSSIBLE. HE HAS TOTAL CONTROL AND OWNERSHIP….”
And as I said… that has NEVER needed any ‘clarification’.
It is perfectly obvious that when Air Attack Rory Collins left the fire… Thomas French then disregarded everything he and Collins had been talking about and ‘agreeing’ to do with the inbound resources… and Thomas French then just proceeded to do what HE wanted to do.
WHY he remained ‘fixated’ on that little retardant line project in the Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road area ( which only involved a few abandoned structures )…. while the fire was actively charging into Yarnell and Glen Ilah and people down there were already EXPECTING the ‘Air Support’ to ‘arrive’ down there… is still a question that needs ( and deserves ) to be answered.
WTKTT,
You posted: “WHY he [French] remained ‘fixated’ on that little retardant line project in the Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road area … is still a question that needs ( and deserves ) to be answered.”
Yes, it is. I completely agree. I am sure he had a good reason(s).
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on August 8, 2016 at 6:21 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> You posted: “WHY he [French] remained ‘fixated’ on
>> that little retardant line project in the Miner’s Camp
>> Road and Model Creek Road area … is still a question
>> that needs ( and deserves ) to be answered.”
>>
>> Yes, it is. I completely agree.
Ah… so Thomas French did NOT ‘explain’ any of THAT to those ‘families’ on the ‘Staff Ride’, eh?
That’s what I thought.
Not something he wanted them to hear, I suppose.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I am sure he had a good reason(s).
Well… since I am not an avowed apologist for ‘fire command’ and/or ‘fire management’… I would only agree that he probably did have SOME kind of ‘reasons’
But ( unlike you )… I’m not ready to call them ‘good’ ( or even ‘bad’ ) reasons unless I know what they are first.
If he was just being anal retentive… that is NOT a good reason.
WTKTT,
Here’s a YouTube link to the movie ‘ALWAYS’
“How did I get out of that one?” he asks. “You didn’t, you’re dead” she replies.
This has got to be how you are imagining things in the WFF world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSL30W9DeU8
“This remake of the 1943 film A GUY NAMED JOE stars Richard Dreyfuss as Pete Sandich, a daredevil pilot who specializes in putting out forest fires. Pete promises his girlfriend, Dorinda (Holly Hunter), that he will stop flying, but when his best friend, Al (John Goodman), gets into engine trouble while fighting a blaze, Pete attempts a daring rescue–saving his friend but killing himself.
“Waking up in the afterlife, Pete meets an angel, Hap (Audrey Hepburn), who sends him back to earth as a ghost no one can see or hear. When Dorinda flies into a fire to save trapped smoke jumpers, Pete telepathically talks her through the dangerous mission. Hap tells Pete he must help Dorinda overcome her grief and lead her to a new love with a novice pilot (Brad Johnson). While Pete watches the two start their romance, he battles feelings of jealousy and sadness at giving her up.
“Steven Spielberg and Richard Dreyfuss, while working together on JAWS in 1975, found that they shared an affinity for the 1943 film A GUY NAMED JOE. They managed to come together years later to make their own version of it in ALWAYS.”
>> RTS said…
>>
>> This has got to be how you are imagining things in the WFF world.
Nope.
See my other post above asking you what YOU are going to do now that YOU… a still-on-the-roster valid WFF Safety Officer… are aware that these “Guys named Joe or Kevin Hopf or Jack Maxey or whatever ) are CURRENTLY practicing classic “Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes” with no ‘hesitation’ and with the complete support of WFF management.
Watching movies isn’t going to help.
WTKTT,
You posted: “… what are YOU are going to do now that YOU… a still-on-the-roster valid WFF Safety Officer… are aware that these “Guys named Joe or Kevin Hopf or Jack Maxey or whatever ) are CURRENTLY practicing classic “Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes” with no ‘hesitation’ and with the complete support of WFF management.”
“Watching movies isn’t going to help.”
First off the ‘Always’ movie was for your edification. It is how I imagine YOU envisioning the Twisp Canyon Fire VLAT cowboy in action SEVERAL TIMES.
IF this occurs and I witness it (or hear of it) then I will take the appropriate action(s) at my level, including the proactive approach of intervening and ATTEMPTING to stop it.
I will file BOTH a SAFECOM and a SAFENET.
I will also be on the lookout for tanker pilot “Guys named Joe or Kevin Hopf or Jack Maxey or whatever” and engage them face-to-face AND I will engage VLAT and Tanker pilots on this insane fictional, movie BS issue of desperately and fool-heartedly engaging in unsafe actions threatening them, their Air Crew, and other WFF’s on the ground.
Then, of course, I’d follow the chain-of-command to continue dealing with any issues like this.
I posted on IM in an earlier Chapter about me and my DIVS on the 2008 Iton Complex and our several hours of unsuccessful attempts on the Command Channel to STOP what would become a fatal helicopter crash killing 9 WFF’s.
I have always done my part. I did my part then and I will do my part in the future.
2008 IRON COMPLEX
RTS said:
“I posted on IM in an earlier Chapter about me and my DIVS on the 2008 Iton Complex and our several hours of unsuccessful attempts on the Command Channel to STOP what would become a fatal helicopter crash killing 9 WFF’s.”
Me, me, me. Oh, come on. Several hours of attempting to stop the flights? What is needed is safety officers with huge fucking balls, courage, & a complete lack of giving a shit about future employment/AD paychecks. There is a reason safety is adjacent to the Incident Commander and not under Operations in the ICS organizational chart. A safety officer MUST stop an act where the likelihood is high that personnel will become severely injured or dead…and I mean stop it any way humanly possible. I guarantee you that I can stop such a situation OR go to jail trying. Those are the 2 possible outcomes once my mind is made up to take action against something where I believe if I don’t (& I don’t succeed) people will die.
Lay off the VLAT pilot. He can make the call in an emergency situation of what he can or cannot do with his aircraft and equipment. His a big boy. You don’t need to hold his hand when crossing the street. Of course, the best way to not have a pilot have to do this is to not have a situation that requires it. Pilot Kevin didn’t create that situation but had balls enough to do what was necessary to save lives. THAT’S a pilot I want on my team! “Oh no! Too risky!!” Would you help someone who needed you to save their life even if it put yours in danger? The VLAT pilot wasn’t show-boating. He was stepping up to the plate for his fellow man. Tanker drop too low? Would you rather have charred dead firefighters or slurry covered alive ones with some broken bones? You wouldn’t even try because the book says it’s too scary dangerous? Grow a pair.
What the hell is wrong with you, Bob, & Rocksteady? Get your heads straight!
WTKTT,
They’re not getting the memo here. Keep up the good work. Don’t let experienced wff’s try to tell you that you don’t know shit about this just because they may not like where the evidence leads. Pep talk over.
RTS said:
“I have always done my part. I did my part then and I will do my part in the future.”
Whatever you have to keep telling yourself, man. You’re not doing your part here because of your tunnel vision.
Everyone Else:
Keep turning over those rocks!
Woodsman
ps: maybe I’ll become safety qualified & carry a hickory bat on the line with me…you know, to get the point across. walking tall
Warped Woodsman,
You posted: “Lay off the VLAT pilot. He can make the call in an emergency situation of what he can or cannot do with his aircraft and equipment.”
Exactly, pilot discretion. So then, you must also feel it is okay for him to also risk the lives of his Air Crew.
“Of course, the best way to not have a pilot have to do this is to not have a situation that requires it. … Pilot Kevin didn’t create that situation but had balls enough to do what was necessary to save lives.”
Yep, DIVS A Marsh and the GMHS created the situation by NOT heeding the Basic WFF Rules and Guidelines.
“Would you help someone who needed you to save their life even if it put yours in danger?”
Always have.
“The VLAT pilot wasn’t show-boating. He was stepping up to the plate for his fellow man.”
I disagree. He was kinda show-boating.
“Would you rather have charred dead firefighters or slurry covered alive ones with some broken bones?”
That’s a False Dichotomy Fallacy. It’s also known as the either-or fallacy, either-or reasoning, fallacy of false choice, fallacy of false alternatives, black-and-white thinking, the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses, bifurcation, excluded middle, no middle ground, and polarization.
It is when only two choices are presented yet more exist, or a spectrum of possible choices exists between two extremes. False dilemmas are usually characterized by “either this or that” language, but can also be characterized by omissions of choices.
“You wouldn’t even try because the book says it’s too scary dangerous?”
You have NO clue, NONE.
The best you can do on your latest rant and diatribe is fall back on an ‘Appeal to Ridicule’ for anyone that has a view counter to yours.
The pipe dream of having GMIHS crew call out their location, turn that big ass beast of a VLAT into a SAFE bombing run, having visibility and terrain awareness and to be able to pinpoint where the crew was is an absolute “one in 10 million” chance..
If VLATS and Pilots were that good and nimble, they would not even need Air Attack, they could just get put through some fire courses and be launched to freelance…
The Fire was Allegedly moving at 11 mph (if I remember correctly), the crew called that they were entrapped, by the time that VLAT got turned, the crew was already DEAD..
My head is straight.. After 33 years of wildland fire fighting I have seen what can/should/needs to be done, not an imaginary Hail Mary that will go down as the greatest save in the history of aerial fire fighting…
Earlier, WTKTT go into it, saying that RTS and Bob Powers (I guess I fall into this group too) ARE NOT PILOTS, so can not speak to what the DC10 could have done….
Along the exact same thought process, I ask you WTKTT, have you ever been on board a fire fighting aircraft during a fire event (helicopter or Air Attack) ????????
I have, many many times, as have RTS and Mr. Powers.
I will honestly tell you that your “Burfiend was IGNORING the GMIHS crew” is utter guessing…
Follow along and try to learn what it is really like in the air during a fire and aerial event…
I don’t fly in light planes… hate them… crappy visibility and too bumpy for me, but helicopters… LOVE THEM… Probably spend 200 hours per year in rotary wing aircraft in a variety of capacities….
Some helicopters only have one radio console, shared between pilot and passenger. Usually they are monitoring 2 frequencies (as set for the incident or response center, and the designated VHF frequency (Air to Air)…
So there is 3 channels potentially yapping through one headset into 2 ears…
Some newer machines I have been in have duals. Separate radios for passenger and pilot.
So, just for an example, I was doing some aerial ignition this year on a Type 1 incident. I was on a simplex (non repeater) channel, talking to the crew (air to ground), I was also monitoring a separate “ignition frequency” that we required to ensure secure communications. My pilot was monitoring the air to air frequency, the repeater channel (we have to check in with the dispatch centre every 30 minutes etc, as well as monitor it for other aircraft being launched to the incident, by dispatch), as well as one other channel that may be needed depending on the complexity of the fire and number of aircraft in the mix.
There is now 5 different frequencies, being monitored by 2 people, who each have 2 ears, plus as a passenger, I also have to be able to communicate with the pilot, telling him where I would like him to fly, elevation, circuit, etc and what I need to see.
With having 5 radios going, as well as intercom discussions, it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that Burfiend DID NOT HEAR THE CALL FOR HELP.
When you are using one channel as your primary discussion channel with aircraft and you get background chatter from the other frequency, you turn down the chatter a bit so you can hear primary.
Try this out for an experiment… WTKTT….
Get 6 of your friends… You will be air attack.. get 2 chairs 6 feet away from you and have them face you, 2 of your friends then sit there and try to have conversations with you (sometimes overlapping cause they are talking to you on one channel, not knowing you are already on the other….
Have another person sit in a chair next to you( will just call him the AA Pilot), but he has 3 people in chairs sitting 6 feet away from him, talking to him…..In separate discussions….
Now to really toss a wrench into it… You also must have a conversation with your AA pilot…..
Try it out, see how successful you can be at having clear and concise conversations where all 6 involved get their points across and nothing gets messed up…. Do this and then see if you can be ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT BURFIEND WAS IGNORING GMIHS…
This is how it can be on incidents where there is lots of radio traffic due to the incident and aircraft (as well as the proximity of aircraft in the general area (when you are close to each other you have to communicate your intentions more)….
Woodsman TRY TO PAY ATTENTION.
You are a way better Fireman than what you just posted.
AT LEAST I THOUGHT SO. I am beginning to wonder.??
WTKTT,
How are you NOT understanding and comprehending THAT this ROGUE Airtanker BS is, just that, It is DRAMATIC, DREAMLAND BULLSHIT?
Refer back to my post on how stress adversely affects one’s decision-making.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343864
You posted: “And they [GMHS] SHOULD have been including that [location] information in their MAYDAY calls and NOT have been waiting those 2 long minutes just for John Burfiend to give them ‘permission to speak’.”
It is highly likely that even then, the GMHS did NOT realize the seriousness of their dire situation because all we here them saying on the A/G channel is “We are in from front of the flaming front, our escape route has been cut off,” etc. The GMHS was fecklessly attempting to cut a DEPLOYMENT ZONE in heavy chaparral with chainsaws for 2-3 minutes rather than what we had had been trained to do based on Dr. Ted Putnam’s research title “Analysis of Escape Efforts and PPE on the South Canyon Fire.”
Basically, Dr. Putnam’s research concluded: “drop your shit and RUN (ESCAPE)” with your Fire Shelter and tool??. This can increase your travel speed by up to 20%. The GMHS Deployment Zone was 0.33 miles ( Region 06 Pacific Northwest Region > Okanogan & Wenatchee NF
Aircraft Type : Airtanker (Multi Engine)
Category : Hazard:Policy Deviation
NO MATCHES FOUND.”
So, this suggests that the VLAT pilot evidently did NOT feel that his ‘POLICY DEVIATION” of flying into unfamiliar terrain, obscured by smoke, and into an area with a “pretty good idea” where he was going, was worth reporting in a SAFECOM? WTF!?
2011 National Airtanker Contract link
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/contracting/airtankers/airtanker_contract.pdf
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 6, 2016 at 3:27 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> How are you NOT understanding and comprehending THAT
>> this ROGUE Airtanker BS is, just that, It is DRAMATIC,
>> DREAMLAND BULLSHIT?
Which ‘Airtanker’ are you actually referring to?
The one in Yarnell that MIGHT have attempted to fly directly INTO a large smoke column, with dangerous terrain to consider, in order to drop retardant on a group of firefighters known to be ‘deploying’…. in just the ‘hopes’ that it might do some good…
…or the one that actually DID do that very thing… at the Twisp fire?
I’ve already told you it is ‘above my paygrade’ to say whether any of these guys are ever ALLOWED ( or ever SHOULD be allowed ) to make those kinds of decisions ( or not ).
I’m just telling you that it DID happen at Twisp… and actually MIGHT have happened in Yarnell if only they had a good idea ( like the Twisp guy did ) about exactly where to do it.
WTKTT,
You posted: “I’m just telling you that it DID happen at Twisp… and actually MIGHT have happened in Yarnell if only they had a good idea ( like the Twisp guy did ) about exactly where to do it.”
And I am telling you ONE MORE TIME, with visuals already posted, that what happened on the Twisp Canyon Fire by a rogue VLAT tanker pilot, IN TOTALLY DIFFERENT TERRAIN AND WEATHER PHENOMENON was IMPOSSIBLE on the YH Fire. PERIOD,
END OF STORY, END OF DRAMA, END OF DEBATE, END OF FICTIONAL DREAMLAND, END OF MOVIE AND FICTIONAL NOVEL STUFF!
Get over it will ya. Write a novel about it or something.
Just to be clear… you already admitted YOU are NOT a PILOT, right?
I may not be a pilot but I road in the AA seat for 0ver 200 hours You do not do what was done on the Twisp. The Air Tanker there may have been Initial Attack with out a AA or Lead Plane.
Maneuvering a large tanker from 8000 plus feet above a fire in a circle pattern to a drop point on a fire takes time.
Dropping into a unknown canyon covered in smoke with a huge smoke column not only above the canyon but laid over it is unsafe.
There were no previous runs by a heavy Tanker to know the altitude or lay of the land. The lead plane would make that decision along with AA.
The Air Tanker was under there direction.
Just to be clear, the retardant drop at Twisp River did not change the outcome, correct? The single survivor escaped the area through the fire. Three others survived by taking cover in a garage until it burned and then ran to the road and took cover under their shelters, all three sharing two shelters. The three fatalities were found later, still in their truck, in a heavily burned area. No mention of aid from retardant drops.
The FFs here should correct me if I’m wrong, but dropping aqueous retardant in the wrong place might actually make things worse because steam will kill at much lower temperatures than dry air.
I think the only way AA could have helped is if they had observed GM movement and inferred their crazy ass plan at 1600-1615 and gotten it aborted. RTS has said that may not even have worked because GM was already committed to their plan.
Correction: The single survivor escaped the area through the fire.
Should read: The single survivor of the truck rollover escaped the area through the fire.
Absolutely……………..
Reply to Muzzy post on August 7, 2016 at 9:28 am
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Just to be clear, the retardant drop at Twisp
>> River did not change the outcome, correct?
If you are talking about the 3 USFS firefighters who burned to death inside of Okanogan Forest Engine 642… no.
That wasn’t the focus of the ’emergency drops’ that afternoon. They ( fire command ) actually had no idea where Engine 642 had left the road… or even that it HAD… until later.
The focus of the ’emergency retardant’ drops that afternoon was to try and do something to help the 3 firefighters who ‘trapped’ and deploying their shelters farther up Woods Canyon Road. They remained in ‘contact’ with ‘fire command’ and were, apparently, able to provide their ‘location’ even while they were deploying.
In thier case… there is evidence in the official ‘Status Report’ that has been released that those emergency drops DID help those 3 FFs to survive.
A copy of the Twisp ‘Status Report’ that was released by the USFS “Coordinated Response Protocol’ accident investigation team led by John Phipps is here…
http://wildfiretoday.com/documents/Twisp_River_Fire_Status_Report.pdf
As it turns out… there were ( apparently ) at least FOUR ’emergency drops’ that were attempting to help those ‘sheltered’ firefighters on Woods Canyon Road.
Each one of them would been like the one filmed in the video and the Tankers would have been flying directly INTO the large smoke column in order to make the drops.
The one that was filmed was, apparently, the FIRST drop.
The report says there was an ‘Air Attack / Lead Plane’ guiding these multiple ’emergency drops’… but the video that was posted on the Methow Valley News Facebook page shows no such thing.
It only shows that VLAT coming in ‘Hot’ from the WEST ( with no lead plane ) and flying directly INTO the smoke column, making a drop, and then ’emerging’ from the smoke column in a ‘climb’ to avoid the terrain on the EAST side of the run.
Perhaps this FIRST emergency drop was made just before the Air Attack / Lead Plan had arrived over Twisp. The report doesn’t say WHEN this ‘Air Attack’ actually showed up.
But John Phipp’s report DOES say that at least ONE of these ’emergency drops’ (quote) “reduced the heat” being felt by the men in their shelters, during the ‘deployment’.
From the bottom of PDF page 17 of the ‘Status Report’…
———————————————————
The ICs alerted dispatch that they had an entrapment on the right flank of the fire. At 3:09 p.m. the lead plane began directing retardant drops; first a C-130 split its load into two drops, and next a DC-10 dropped four loads. Finally a P2V dropped two more loads. At least one of the drops reduced the heat felt by the dozer crewmembers in their fire shelters.
———————————————————–
At least one of the drops reduced the heat felt by the dozer crewmembers in their fire shelters.
All of those men who ‘sheltered’ WERE treated for burns and smoke inhalation… but none of them died.
There is also an AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH in the ‘Status Report’ itself, on PDF page 19, which was taken the next day of that ‘Woods Canyon Road’ area.
It clearly shows WHERE the retardant had been being dropped there in the middle of that smoke cloud the previous day.
————————————————————
On PDF page 19 ( of 25 pages )…
Photo Caption:
Figure 8―A photo of the post fire scene (paved road is Twisp River Road and the dirt road is Woods Canyon Road).
————————————————————
So these ( apparently ) FOUR ’emergency drops’ actually ARE mentioned in the Twisp ‘Status Report’… and John Phipp’s seems to be saying that they DID ‘do some good’ with regards to to ‘reducing the heat’ being experienced by the ones who were trapped in their fire shelters.
No one is being ‘reprimanded’ for flying their tankers into the middle of a huge smoke column, dropping ‘blind’ on an assumed target, and then having to avoid terrain on the exit(s).
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Three others survived by taking cover in a garage until it burned and then ran to the road and took cover under their shelters, all three sharing two shelters. The three fatalities were found later, still in their truck, in a heavily burned area. No mention of aid from retardant drops.
The FFs here should correct me if I’m wrong, but dropping aqueous retardant in the wrong place might actually make things worse because steam will kill at much lower temperatures than dry air.
I think the only way AA could have helped is if they had observed GM movement and inferred their crazy ass plan at 1600-1615 and gotten it aborted. RTS has said that may not even have worked because GM was already committed to their plan.
Hit ‘send’ too early on the previous post before ‘finishing’ it.
Here is the rest…
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Three others survived by taking cover
>> in a garage until it burned and then
>> ran to the road and took cover under
>> their shelters, all three sharing two
>> shelters.
Yes…. and THESE were the men that were the ‘target’ of the emergency drops as the tankers were flying ‘blind’ directly INTO the center of the large smoke column.
And John Phipp’s seems to say that at least ONE of these emergency drops helped ‘reduce the heat’ they were experiencing and ( perhaps ) helped them survive.
>> Muzzy also said….
>>
>> The three fatalities were found later, still
>> in their truck, in a heavily burned area.
>> No mention of aid from retardant drops.
Correct. The ‘Unified Command’ that was running that Initial Attack was not fully AWARE of what had happened to Engine 642 at the time they were trying to save the other 3 up on Woods Canyon Road.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> I think the only way AA ( at Yarnell ) could
>> have helped is if they had observed GM
>> movement and inferred their crazy ass
>> plan at 1600-1615 and gotten it aborted.
>> RTS has said that may not even have
>> worked because GM was already
>> committed to their plan.
Totally agree.
If ‘Air Support’ HAD turned its attention to the Yarnell side of the fire circa 3:50 PM when instructed to do so by Air Attack Rory Collins… there *MIGHT* have been a chance that while they were then working THAT end of the fire… they would have SEEN what Granite Mountain was attempting.
The smoke cloud had not ‘laid down’ yet and they would have had a clear view of the movements of GM.
20 guys with bright YELLOW helmets walking in a line are pretty hard to miss ‘down there’ as long as they aren’t covered with smoke.
So there MAY have been a chance at an ‘intervention’ and we would then most likely have radio captures of THOSE ‘conversations’ ( Unless attempts were made to HIDE all that evidence ).
But if RTS is correct… that even those kinds of attempts to intervene would have been ‘ignored’ by Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed… then how sad would THAT have been.
To actually HEAR others trying to STOP them from killing themselves… but they would ( according to RTS ) have still just gone ahead and done it, anyway.
One drop out of how many actually may have reduced the heat?
Flying thru a smoke cloud at elevation or 100 feet above terrain?
You can fly thru a smoke cloud if you have altitude.
Making a canyon run to hit target is not easy I.E.
Only one actually reduced the heat. or hit near the deployed FF.
Most if not all were dropping well above 200 FT above the terrain. again you need a heavy load to hit the spot did not happen.
I will bet they were to high for full effectiveness because they could not see the ground.
The lead plane would not let them get that low.
If you think putting 3 DC 10 personnel, and who knows how many in other plane crews and even ground personnel at risk to make 3 FFs a little more comfortable in their shelters is questionable math.
Personally, I suspect that the effect of even the single dump that “helped” was more after the fact rationalization or a placebo effect, in which the FFs were reassured that their position was known and that others were working to help them. I don’t discount that kind of support in increasing survival by lowering the stress level, but I don’t know if it’s worth the risk.
Then there is the risk that the plane, still in use long after Kevin has moved on, falls apart due to fatigue caused by the cowboy moves that had little effect.
The FFs at Twisp were being unsafe, to be sure, but they didn’t willingly and knowingly March from safety to death. To put more personnel at risk to save a crew from their own suicide mission for PR or an early dinner…id like to hear an ethicist analyze this.
Reply to Muzzy post on
August 7, 2016 at 6:56 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> If you think putting 3 DC 10 personnel,
>> and who knows how many in other
>> plane crews and even ground
>> personnel at risk to make 3 FFs a
>> little more comfortable in their
>> shelters is questionable math.
Since ( unlike Yarnell ) an almost EXACT location for the ‘sheltered’ men HAD been ‘ascertained’… and there WERE multiple resources on-scene that could ( possibly ) do something… I believe they thought they actually *MIGHT* have a chance to ‘save their lives’… and not just ‘make them more comfortable’.
That being said… It’s way above my pay-grade to say whether the ‘flyboys’ should ever be allowed to be attempting that sort of thing.
If the US Forestry Service’s own “Coordinated Response Protocol” accident investigation ( CRAP protocol ) didn’t see fit to cover that ground in THEIR report… then I guess those kinds of risky-decisions are de-facto ‘AOK’ with them.
Or at least that is the ‘message’ being sent.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Then there is the risk that the plane,
>> still in use long after Kevin has moved
>> on, falls apart due to fatigue caused
>> by the cowboy moves that had
>> little effect.
The actual physical DC10 airframe ( aircraft ) that was known as ‘VLAT 910’ was RETIRED from active service in November of 2014.
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Tanker 910 is retiring
Published: November 14, 2014
By: Bill Gabbert
http://fireaviation.com/2014/11/14/tanker-910-is-retiring/
From that article…
———————————————
10 Tanker Air Carrier is retiring one of their three DC-10 air tankers, Tanker 910, the first DC-10 to be converted.
Its final flight after serving for 10 years was this Saturday when it flew from Castle Airport, 910’s base since last summer, to Oscota Michigan for dismantling.
The aircraft was converted to an air tanker in 2004, and began working in California under a CAL FIRE contract in 2006. Since that time Tanker 910 has dropped on over 500 fire missions in California, and over 750 across the country. It has been joined by two other converted DC-10s, with the third one being introduced to the fleet on August 30.
10 Tanker Air Carrier will replace Tanker 910 with a newer air frame that will carry the same “910” designation as the plane being retired this fall.
———————————————
So there is still a DC10 VLAT flying with the ‘910’ designation… but it’s a NEWER aircraft than the original ‘910’.
And Kevin Hopf is still listed as being one of ’10 Tanker Air Carrier’s Chief Pilots.
Muzzy,
You are spot on. Thank you for being the Voice of Reason here.
It was clearly NOT worth the risk, especially numerous times.
Indeed, there is the risk that of that plane falling apart due to fatigue caused by the cowboy moves that had little effect.
WTKTT,
It does NOT matter which Airtanker I am referring to. It was an IMPOSSIBLE drop on the YH Fire and an EXTREMELY RISKY multiple drops on the Twisp Canyon Fire.
That pilot put himself and his Air Crew and the WFF’s on the ground flying blindly in that situation.
Brave? Yes. Heroic? No way. Extremely Stupid? Yes indeed.
That pilot put himself and his Air Crew and the WFF’s on the ground IN DANGER flying blindly in that situation.
Well… then according to US Forestry ( in general ) and USFS employee and Twisp CRP-Lead Investigator John Phipps ( specifically ) and his ‘Status Report’ regarding the ‘Twisp’ fire…
…that is AOK behavior ( at any time ).
Sounds like you need to take it up with them… before something terrible happens in THAT part of the WFF world.
In other words… ( according to your view of the situation )…
1. Absolute proof that there is more ‘risky behavior’ happening on a regular basis in that part of the WFF world… and more “bad decisions with good outcomes” taking place.
2. Absolute proof that no one in WFF management who COULD do something about it gives a shit.
Absolute proof? You’re kidding, right?
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
August 8, 2016 at 12:30 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Absolute proof? You’re kidding, right?
Who’s kidding who?
YOU are the one speaking in ‘absolutes’ about all this ( and you aren’t even a pilot )…
RTS said…
“That pilot put himself and his Air Crew and the WFF’s on the ground IN DANGER flying blindly in that situation.”
That is your ‘absolute’ opinion, apparently.
No wiggle room.
I have already told YOU it is above MY paygrade to say that is ‘absolutely’ the case.
But see above… if YOU are ‘absolutely’ sure about what you are saying… then “look up” and you will see more “Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes” being ACCEPTED and even ENCOURAGED by WFF management.
WTKTT,
You posted: “That pilot put himself and his Air Crew and the WFF’s on the ground IN DANGER flying blindly in that situation.”
“That is your ‘absolute’ opinion, apparently. No wiggle room.”
Yes, indeed, that is my ‘absolute’ PROFESSIONAL opinion, NOT apparently. And yes, NO wiggle room.
“I have already told YOU it is above MY paygrade to say that is ‘absolutely’ the case.”
I know you are a lot smarter than that. It’s just a cop-out as far as I’m concerned.
You also posted: “But see above… if YOU are ‘absolutely’ sure about what you are saying… then “look up” and you will see more “Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes” being ACCEPTED and even ENCOURAGED by WFF management.”
Reply to Bob Powers post on
August 7, 2016 at 8:36 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I may not be a pilot but I road in the AA seat
>> for 0ver 200 hours You do not do what was
>> done on the Twisp. The Air Tanker there may
>> have been Initial Attack without a AA or Lead Plane.
There is no doubt that ‘Twisp’ fire was still in the ‘Initial Attack’ phase… and the fatalities / deployment took place just a little over 3 hours into the fire… but a ‘Unified Command’ structure has already ‘taken over’ that IA just an hour or so after it began.
A copy of the official USFS CRP ( Coordinated Response Protocol ) accident investigation ‘Status Report’ is here…
http://wildfiretoday.com/documents/Twisp_River_Fire_Status_Report.pdf
It actually DOES mention these ’emergency’ retardant drops and it actually DOES say they were being ‘coordinated’ by an Air Attack / Lead Plane.
However… that doesn’t match the VIDEO that was posted to the Methow Valley News Facebook page by Mr. Wimot.
That video, showing the DC10 flying directly INTO the center of the huge smoke plume, shows no ‘Lead Plane’ at all.
That DC10 just came in ‘Hot’ and ‘Fast’ from the west… flew right into the center of the smoke plume, made that ‘blind’ drop where it thought the men were, and then ‘powered out’ of the cloud, nose up, to clear the terrain to the EAST of the target.
The report says the same DC10 then did this not just once… or even twice… but FOUR TIMES.
And the report itself also says that at least one of these ‘blind drops’ right smack into the CENTER of the smoke plume actually DID ( supposedly ) “reduce the heat” being felt by those 3 men trying to hunker under just 2 fire shelters up there on Woods Canyon Road.
From the bottom of PDF page 17 of the ‘Status Report’…
———————————————————
The ICs alerted dispatch that they had an entrapment on the right flank of the fire. At 3:09 p.m. the lead plane began directing retardant drops; first a C-130 split its load into two drops, and next a DC-10 dropped four loads. Finally a P2V dropped two more loads. At least one of the drops reduced the heat felt by the dozer crewmembers in their fire shelters.
———————————————————–
“At least one of the drops reduced the heat felt by the dozer crewmembers in their fire shelters.”
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Maneuvering a large tanker from 8000 plus
>> feet above a fire in a circle pattern to a drop
>> point on a fire takes time.
The only video that exists of at least one of those ’emergency drops’ in Twisp ( probably the FIRST one attempted ) shows no ‘circle pattern’ approach. That VLAT was, apparently, only then ARRIVING ‘on scene’ and he came ‘straight in’ from the west to fly directly INTO the center of the smoke cloud to make the drop.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Dropping into a unknown canyon covered
>> in smoke with a huge smoke column not only
>> above the canyon but laid over it is unsafe.
I would tend to agree… but despite similair ‘unsafe’ conditions in Twisp… that sort of ‘dropping’ was not only done multiple times over the area where they though the entrapped men were… the official report now says those multiple emergency drops were under the direction ( and with permission of ) Air Attack.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> There were no previous runs by a heavy Tanker to
>> know the altitude or lay of the land.
Actually… there were.
By the exact same VLAT ( 910 ) and pilot ( Kevin Hopf ).
See the following video… ( Brendan McDonough’s video )…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADfRvBkDs_EsAnIo0kKVU_2a/Photos%20and%20Video/Brendan%20McDonough%20Photos?dl=0&preview=20130630_134022.mp4
That is the same exact VLAT ( 910 ) with the same pilot flying it ( Kevin Hopf ) that would then be ‘in the air’ over Yarnell at the time of the deployment later that same day.
He was ALREADY familiar with the ‘lay of the land’ down there and had been making numerous ‘drops’ in that same area near Yarnell earlier that day, when he could see ALL of that terrain down there quite clearly.
That section of the Weavers that you see him ‘coming over’ in Brendan’s video is actually HIGHER than the section that was down there a little further south, at the west end of the box canyon.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The lead plane would make that decision along with AA.
>> The Air Tanker was under there direction.
Yes… but see above regarding ‘Twisp’.
That official report suggests THOSE ’emergency drops’ were under the complete direction of an ‘Air Attack / Lead Plane’.
Thomas Burfiend and Kevin Hopf never got to even discuss between themselves if an ’emergency drop’ in Yarnell was ‘doable’ or not… because they had no idea where to ‘attempt’ it.
And the reasons they had no idea where to even attempt it were…
1. Granite Mountain didn’t have the sense to simply report their exact location while they were making their ’emergency’ radio calls.
2. John Burfiend ‘ignored’ those radio calls for 2 minutes, until being ORDERED by OPS1 Todd Abel to ‘answer those men’. John Burfiend only then attempted to try to ascertain their location… but because of the 2 minutes he had already wasted ignoring them the opportunity to do that successfully had already been lost.
Followup…
As long as we seem to be discussing all this again… please keep in mind that we really still do NOT know exactly when those men actually died.
The pilot of Helicopter 5KA ( Five Kilo Alpha ) had been traveling down the WEST side of the area that day, on his way to go refuel that helicopter, when the deployment radio traffic first hit the A2G channel at 4:39 PM.
He had already ‘dropped his bucket’ back near the Horseshoe Dip Site up north along Hays Ranch Road.
He heard the ’emergency’ radio traffic and ( unlike John Burfiend ) knew immediately that was a ‘distress’ call and those men were ‘in trouble’.
By the time OPS1 Todd Abel had to ORDER John Burfiend to stop ignoring those radio calls from Granite Mountain, Helicopter 5KA had ALREADY turned around and was almost back near the south end of Yarnell again to try and help with the situation.
Almost 10 ( TEN ) full minutes AFTER Jesse Steed’s first emergency radio call.. the pilot of Helicopter 5KA is heard ( in the actual Air-To-Air radio channel recordings ) telling Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ that he thought he has just then heard ‘Division Alpha’ ( Eric Marsh ) trying to make a radio call to ‘Air Attack’ from down there at the deployment site…
————————————————-
From PANEBAKER VIDEO 20130630_1716_EP
which starts 1645.19 ( 4:45.19 PM )
+03:07 ( 1648.26 / 4:48.26 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA – to Thomas French in B33): I think Division Alpha was ( just ) callin’ ya on Air-To Ground.
——————————————-
Maybe he ( the pilot of 5KA ) had been mistaken… but maybe NOT.
If he was NOT mistaken about what he had just heard… that means that Eric Marsh was still ‘alive enough’ at 4:48:26 PM to be operating his hand-held radio, and supplying his own call sign of ‘Division Alpha’ over the radio.
And if Eric Marsh ( who was actually deployed on the windward edge of the deployment group ) was still ‘alive enough’ to making that radio call at 4:48:26 PM… then the chances are that some/all of the other Granite Mountain Hotshots were ‘still alive’ at that point as well.
So that has ALWAYS remained a ‘piece of evidence’ that SUGGESTS those men MAY have still been ‘alive’ a full 10 ( TEN ) minutes after Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY call.
There is also testimony ( from Thomas French and John Burfiend in their SAIT interview notes ) that pilot Kevin Hopf in VLAT 910 had ALSO thought he heard valid radio traffic coming FROM the deployment site in this same timeframe where the pilot of Helicopter 5KA reported hearing it as well.
Bottom line: We really don’t know WHEN those men actually expired that afternoon.
Might have been around 4:43 PM ( the time of death that was ‘guessed’ for their death certificates ).
Might have been around 4:49 PM ( right after the call the pilots of 5KA and 910 thought they heard )
Might have been ??? ( even later ?? )
I can see you know more than me or assume you understand what happened on the Twisp Fire.
You are laying that all on a video of one run,.witch looks to be well above the terrain the rest were more than likely the same to high to be affective. The probability of hitting flames is much better when you can see them.
Air tankers can and do fly thru the smoke column how ever the rising heat will affect the Drop and in some cases dry it up when it mists before it hits the ground.
I would believe the lead plane was well ahead of the Air Tanker on the first drop even though you can not see him.
8 drops and they did not hit them with a full load.
Do not expect a air tanker to save your ass.
The location of the GM crew was at the bottom of a canyon a way harder place to hit I believe it was a 100 ft drop from the Saddle to the Deployment spot.
On the Yarnell Hill Fire the Air Tanker VALT was circling over the fire or to the side of it. It would take time to set up a possible drop on the Crew. The crew would have been in a smoke area probably before they knew they were in trouble. Finding them would have been impossible.
WTKTT when that extreme heat hit the crew soon after they went into shelters they did not last more than a few seconds. 4:49 to maybe 4:50.
It looked like some of the crew got hit before they deployed based on the information of some being not in shelters.
To many if’s on this one to have ever been successful with a drop that could have save the crew.
You can believe what you want I have lived it seen it ordered drops an stopped fires but so far no one has ever been saved once they go into shelters by a AIR DROP.—–NOT EVEN THE TWESP FIRE.
Repy to Bob Powers post
August 7, 2016 at 6:04 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I would believe the lead plane was
>> well ahead of the Air Tanker on the
>> first drop even though you can not
>> see him.
It’s possible. Mr. Ben Wilmot started filming when the VLAT was still about 1/2 mile away from the target, coming in ‘low and fast’ from the West.
If there HAD been a ‘lead plane’, it could have already passed over the target, in the middle of that smoke column, and exited the right frame of Mr. Wilmot’s camera. Dunno.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> 8 drops and they did not hit them with
>> a full load.
The aerial photograph on page 19 of that Twisp ‘Status Report’ shows exactly where the retardant had been dropped, the previous afternoon.
NONE of it appears to be ‘spot on’ where the same report says the 2 Washinton DNR firefighters and the bulldozer contractor were actually ‘huddled’ behind those 2 fireshelters.
According to the other ‘diagram/photo’ in the report… they never actually ‘deployed’ in the normal sense… since there were 3 of them and only 2 file shelters.
The photo/diagram in the ‘report’ just shows them all ‘crouching’ and using the shelters as ‘heat shields’ against their backs ( the same way the 4 FFs did in the Valley Fire ).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The location of the GM crew was at
>> the bottom of a canyon a way harder
>> place to hit I believe it was a 100 ft drop
>> from the Saddle to the Deployment spot.
It was/is actually much more than that.
Google Earth says the ‘elevation’ at the deployment site is 5,086 feet.
The spot up there on the ‘saddle’ where Sonny ‘Tex’ Gilligan found that melted roll of ‘pink tape/flagging’ was at elevation 5,490 feet.
That’s a 404 feet difference in elevation.
There was actually another little HILL there on the west side of the two-track at the top of the saddle… which ( at its peak ) was another 107 feet in elevation.
So from the deployment site itself up to that ‘peak’ on that hill west of the ‘saddle’… we’re talking about a difference in elevation of 511 feet.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> On the Yarnell Hill Fire the Air Tanker
>> VALT was circling over the fire or to
>> the side of it. It would take time to
>> set up a possible drop on the Crew.
Yes. That is what makes even those 2 minutes that John Burfiend wasted ignoring their calls and losing the chance to ascertain a ‘location’…. and then even BEGINNING to decide if anything could be done… even all the more poignant.
They ( Thomas French and pilot Kevin Hopf ) never even got to BEGIN talking about making a ‘drop’ because they had no idea WHERE to even try one.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The crew would have been in a smoke
>> area probably before they knew they
>> were in trouble. Finding them would
>> have been impossible.
Again… all the more important for them to have ‘announced’ their EXACT location over the radio RIGHT AWAY… without waiting 2 long minutes just to try and get some guy named John Burfiend to give them “permission to speak”.
Like a standard MAYDAY call.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> WTKTT when that extreme heat hit the
>> crew soon after they went into shelters
>> they did not last more than a few seconds.
Probably not.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> 4:49 to maybe 4:50.
Well… even if it was as late as just 4:49 ( when Helicopter 5KA pilot thought he heard ‘Division Alpha’ making a radio call )… that is still a full 10 ( TEN ) minutes after Steed’s first emegency radio call at 4:39 PM.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> It looked like some of the crew got hit
>> before they deployed based on the
>> information of some being not in shelters.
All we really know there is that whatever happened… all the men had at least enough time to PULL their shelters and fully ‘deploy’ them. Whether or not they then also had enough time to actually get IN them will probably always remain a mystery.
NOTE: Some/most of the men counted as ‘not being in their shelters’ actually still had their FEET inside of them… and it also remains possible that the TWO attempts by Helicopter Ranger 58 to LAND right there by the bodies might have ‘blown’ a lot of the shelters off men who had otherwise actually been inside of them before those attempted nearby chopper landings.
The only way to know for sure who was really ‘in’ their shelters and who wasn’t is if anyone in Ranger 58 happened to take a photograph of the deployment site BEFORE ‘Ranger 58’ attempted those two nearby landings.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> To many if’s on this one to have ever
>> been successful with a drop that could
>> have save the crew.
Again… the difference between what happened in Twisp… and what NEVER even had the chance of happening in Yarnell… was one simple word…
LOCATION.
In Twisp… the men who needed the help WERE still actively talking on the radio during the incident and at least supplying good information about their exact LOCATION. That is the only thing that made it even POSSIBLE for ( supposedly ) the on-scene Air-Attack to decide that despite any/all risks… it was worth TRYING to make drops as close to that known LOCATION as possible.
In Yarnell… there was no similar EXACT LOCATION to go on… and hence… no chance for Thomas French and VLAT pilot Kevin Hopf to even BEGIN to discuss making a ‘drop’.
So it was the whole botched MAYDAY sequence ( including GM not reporting their location and then Burfiend failing to ascertain it ) that short-circuited any ‘decision making’ about any ’emergency drops’.
Pure folly… if you don’t even have any fucking idea WHERE to even TRY it.
WTKTT,
You posted: “… we really still do NOT know exactly when those men actually died.”
And you point is what?
It does NOT matter what time they actually died because the dramatic Airtanker rescue that you keep insisting on would have been IMPOSSIBLE under those conditions.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on August 8, 2016 at 8:21 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> You posted: “… we really still do NOT
>> know exactly when those men actually
>> died.”
>>
>> And you point is what?
My point is that if you ( and anyone else ) think that following those 2 full wasted minutes when John Burfiend was purposely ignoring those men came the moment they actually died… that there is still no proof that was the reality that day.
There might have been much MORE time involved.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It does NOT matter what time they
>> actually died because the dramatic
>> Airtanker rescue that you keep insisting
>> on would have been IMPOSSIBLE under
>> those conditions.
Thanks ( again ) for YOUR ( non-Pilot ) opinion on the matter… but you really are having a ‘block’ about the actual point of all this, aren’t you.
I will tell you one more time…
There is NO EVIDENCE that Thomas French and the real pilot of VLAT 910 ( who wasn’t YOU ) ever actually HAD a ‘conversation’ between THEMSELVES ( who are the only two that mattered that afternoon ) about whether THEY considered an ’emergency drop’ to be either ‘possible’ or ‘impossible’.
Why?
Because before they could have even considered doing such a thing… they needed to know WHERE they would have been being asked to consider doing it.
It might have been anywhere ‘down there’… and even in a place that was clear of any ‘terrain’ issues… leaving just “do we fly through the smoke” issues.
They DID NOT KNOW where to even TRY any kind of ’emergency drop’.
And WHY was that?
1. Because Granite Mountain didn’t have the either the good sense or the actual ‘training’ to report their exact location without waiting for some guy in an airplane to give them “permission” to speak.
2. And because John Burfiend had ignored them for 2 full minutes before being ORDERED to do so by OPS1 Todd Abel… and was then unable to ascertain their exact location BECAUSE he had wasted those 2 full minutes.
And I suppose… next… you will come back and say that was NOT a ‘Direct Order’ from Todd Abel to John Burfiend to go ahead and ‘answer’ those radio calls?
If you feel inclined to do so… please listen to the radio recording again before you do.
WTKTT,
And once again, it would NOT ave mattered how much time they had the Tanker drop was IMPOSSIBLE based on terrain and weather.
IMPOSSIBLE.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
post on August 8, 2016 at 12:49 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> And once again, it would NOT ave
>> mattered how much time they
>> had the Tanker drop was
>> IMPOSSIBLE based on terrain
>> and weather.
>>
>> IMPOSSIBLE.
They why was Thomas French himself even PREPARING himself ( and the resources at his command ) to even DO what you so easily say was IMPOSSIBLE?
Why don’t we hear him ( in the radio recordings ) telling everyone…
“Not a damn thing we can do for these morons, people… please everyone go about your business”.
We hear the EXACT OPPOSITE.
He was ‘energizing’ ALL of his resources to get ready to perform ’emergency drops’… at the drop of a hat… if they could now only recover from GM and John Burfiend’s fuck-ups and ascertain an exact LOCATION that, itself, would be the sole deciding factor about whether to attempt anything, or not.
But he ( and Kevin Hopf ) were damn sure trying to GET that ‘information’ ( exact location ) in order to begin that decision process.
Not something people who would have already decided it was IMPOSSIBLE would have even been doing in that timeframe.
WTKTT,
You posted: “That video, showing the DC10 FLYING DIRECTLY INTO THE CENTER OF THE HUGE SMOKE PLUME (EMPHASIS ADDED) shows no ‘Lead Plane’ at all.”
“That DC10 JUST CAME IN ‘HOT AND FAST’ from the west… FLEW RIGHT INTO THE CENTER OF THE SMOKE PLUME, MADE THAT BLIND DROP WHERE [HE]THOUGHT THE MEN WERE, and THEN ‘POWERED OUT’ OF THE CLOUD, NOSE UP, TO CLEAR THE TERRAIN to the EAST of the target.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Such DRAMA again!
Here’s that YouTube link to the movie ‘ALWAYS’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSL30W9DeU8
“The report says the same DC10 then did this not just once… or even twice… but FOUR TIMES.”
This is very likely what this VLAT cowboy was experiencing on the Twisp Canyon Fire on those FOUR drops.
WTKTT,
That is correct, I am NOT a pilot, however, I have witnessed several hundred retardant drops in my career and the YH Fire retardant drops that you insist are a possibility are NOT.
The feat would have been IMPOSSIBLE.
One breath… “I am NOT a pilot”
Same breath… “IMPOSSIBLE”.
I’d still like to hear from Kevin Hopf.
The ACTUAL pilot of the ACTUAL airplane that *might* have been asked to do something that day… but never actually WAS because they had no fucking idea WHERE to even try it.
As far as we know… NO ONE ( not the SAIT or ADOSH ) ever ‘interviewed’ the very man who would have had to say what he thought was ‘possible’, or not… if he had even been given a scenario to make a judgement about.
WTKTT,
That is correct, I am NOT a pilot, however, I have witnessed several hundred retardant drops in my career and the YH Fire retardant drops that you insist are a possibility are NOT.
The feat would have been IMPOSSIBLE.
It remains a fact that one of the last things Marsh (and the GMIHC) ever heard was Burfiend say that he was bringing them the v lat.
1. Why did Burfiend tell Div a that if it was not possible?
2. Why did Burfiend tell him Marsh that if he didn’t have a strong idea where they were?
3. Burfiend is heard talking about that valley and the smoke, and it will be hard on us but we will give it a shot. Who was he telling that to??
4. Burfiend also states that the type 1 helicopters have been ordered back? So he was aware that the location of the GMH and Div A was gonna be hard to reach with the v lat?
5. I am going with this. Burfiend was aware of what was transpiring prior to the call out in front of the flaming front. I do think it is possible he was just being informed at the beginning of the helmet cam video. But by who?
Calvin,
Regarding the AA and GMHS VLAT conversation above.ou posted:
“1. Why did Burfiend tell Div a that if it was not possible?”
It was possible. He said he was going to send one his way.
“2. Why did Burfiend tell him Marsh that if he didn’t have a strong idea where they were?”
He knew they were on the south side of the fire, so get one headed to the south side of the fire.
“3. Burfiend is heard talking about that valley and the smoke, and it will be hard on us but we will give it a shot. Who was he telling that to??”
Nobody. HE was telling that to Marsh, if I remember correctly.
“4. Burfiend also states that the type 1 helicopters have been ordered back? So he was aware that the location of the GMH and Div A was gonna be hard to reach with the v lat?”
That could be. It certainly would have been a better and very POSSIBLE choice and much better than a behemoth VLAT.
“5. I am going with this. Burfiend was aware of what was transpiring prior to the call out in front of the flaming front. I do think it is possible he was just being informed at the beginning of the helmet cam video. But by who?”
By whichever GMHS was talking to him on the A/G channel.
WTKTT,
CLARIFICATION on above disjointed post.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-344013
“IF A PILOT EXPERIENCES AN EMERGENCY that REQUIRES him to DEVIATE FROM A FLIGHT RULE or in which he is given priority by ATC, he is REQUIRED BY (Federal Aviation Regulations) FAR 91.3(c) or FAR 91.123(d) to SUBMIT A WRITTEN REPORT if the FAA requests one. Another instance involves logbooks” per an overview of FAA Enforcement article.
First, this was an emergency in the pilot’s head with what was occurring on the ground and NOT in the air. This personal ’emergency’ did NOT REQUIRE him to DEVIATE FROM A FLIGHT RULE. The pilot did this completely on his own and of his own volition.
In other words, he was NOT REQUIRED to do it.
Moreover, it wasn’t once or twice but FOUR times. WTF!?
Below is the linkfor the article titled: ‘THE PILOT IN COMMAND AND THE FARS: THE BUCK STOPS HERE (ALMOST ALWAYS)’ by RAYMOND C. SPECIALE and BRETT D. VENHUIZEN
https://law.und.edu/_files/docs/ndlr/pdf/issues/83/3/83ndlr817.pdf
“In the end analysis, a deviation from the regulations due to an emergency may be excused. However, THE EMERGENCY MUST BE GENUINE AND NOT OF THE PILOT’S OWN MAKING. (EMPHASIS ADDED) Additionally, the pilot invoking emergency authority must be prepared to properly document the circumstances surrounding the emergency and subsequent deviation.”
In the Twisp Canyon Fire, the alleged EMERGENCY was NOT GENUINE and was instead OF THE PILOT’S OWN MAKING. In other words, it was all in his f**king head!
FAA order 8000,373 states: “The FAA recognizes that some deviations arise from factors such as flawed procedures, simple mistakes, lack of understanding, or diminished skills. The Agency believes that deviations of this nature can most effectively be corrected through root cause analysis and training, education or other appropriate improvements to procedures or training programs for regulated entities, which are documented and verified to ensure effectiveness.”
Clearly, the Twisp Canyon Fire VLAT pilot ‘deviations” did NOT include “flawed procedures, simple mistakes, lack of understanding, or diminished skills.” His were blatant disregard for his safety and his Air Crew’s safety and the safety of all the WFF;’s on the ground that day,
He GOT AWAY WITH IT!
The Federal Agencies utilize the SAFECOM Reporting System.
“The Aviation Safety Communique (SAFECOM) database fulfills the Aviation Mishap Information System (AMIS) requirements for aviation mishap reporting for the Department of Interior (DOI) agencies and the U.S. Forest Service. Categories of reports include airspace, incidents, hazards, maintenance, management and mishap prevention. The system uses the SAFECOM Form AMD-34 or FS-5700-14 to report any condition, observation, act, maintenance problem, or circumstance with personnel or aircraft that has the potential to cause an aviation-related mishap. SAFECOMS may also be used to identify good “acts, events, and circumstances” as well as unsafe situations.”
“The SAFECOM system is not intended for initiating punitive actions. Submitting a SAFECOM is not a substitute for “on-the-spot” correction(s) to a safety concern. It is a tool used to identify, document, track and correct safety related issues. A SAFECOM does not replace the requirement for initiating an accident or incident report.”
“SAFECOMS are an accident prevention tool for everyone associated with DOI and U.S. Forest Service aviation operations. Vendors are specifically required by contract to participate.”
“These instructions and helpful hints are intended to make the process of submitting a SAFECOM as easy as possible. If you need assistance, please don’t hesitate to call the Forest Service at (208) 387-5285 or the Aviation Management Directorate, Aviation Safety at (208) 433-5070. After the completion and submission of your SAFECOM, your data will be stored in a central database that is shared on an interagency basis. Therefore, you only have to submit one SAFECOM per event. ”
Just below are the search results of a SAFECOM search for all of August 2015 on the Okanogan & Wenatchee NF, Fire, Retardant Drop (Airtanker) by a Cooperator in the Forest Service (USFS) > Region 06 Pacific Northwest Region by a Airtanker (Multi Engine) regarding a Hazard: Policy Deviation.
NO MATCHES WERE FOUND as seen just below!
“SAFECOM Home
New Search
Begin Date : 8/1/2015
End Date : 8/30/2015
Fiscal Year : 2015
Event State : WA
Mission Type : Fire, Retardant Drop (Airtanker)
Procurment : Cooperator
Manufacturer : Unknown
Unit : Forest Service (USFS) > Region 06 Pacific Northwest Region > Okanogan & Wenatchee NF
Aircraft Type : Airtanker (Multi Engine)
Category : Hazard: Policy Deviation
No Matches Found.”
I believe that SAFECOMS are not required, however, FAR deviations ARE REQUIRED.
So then, there was NO SAFECOM filed for the VLAT “policy deviation” the Twisp Canyon Fire with the VLAT pilots doing very unsafe and NON-emergency antics.
The only way to know if an FAA Report was filed is to submit a FOIA Request.
**
** VLAT 910 PILOT – KEVIN HOPF
>> On August 5, 2016 at 10:01 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>>
>> WTKTT said…
>> “…would [VLAT Pilot] Kevin really have attempted it?
>> We still don’t know the answer there.”
>>
>> That is correct and only he knows unless he told others his intentions.
>>
>> I sure hope he was NOT planning that mission.
The pilot of VLAT 910 that was in the air there over Yarnell and Glen Ilah when the deployment situation developed was ( as far as we know ) NEVER interviewed by any ‘investigators’… but we have always known that his first name was ‘Kevin’ ( because Thomas French was calling him by name over the Air-To-Air radio channel that day ).
It appears his FULL name is ‘Kevin Hopf’… who is ( currently ) the Chief Pilot for ’10 Tanker Air Carrier’, the operator of the three DC-10 air tankers that are used to fight wildland fires, and who was known to be flying VLATS over both the Doce and Yarnell fires in June of 2013.
When VLAT DC10 number 910 arrived back on-scene over Yarnell just prior to the first emergency radio call from Jesse Steed… the pilot of VLAT 910 alerts Thomas French to his presence and then Thomas French calls him by name ( Kevin )…
From Panebaker AFUE Air-Study video 20160630_1643,
which starts at 1630.50 ( 4:30.50 PM ) ( EXIF timestamp ).
———————————————————————————–
+07:43 ( 1638.33 / 4:38.33 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Yea… nine one zero… I’m just comin’ up over the ridge seein’ all the open flame.
+07:47 ( 1638.37 / 4:38.37 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay, copy that. I’m a little bit out of position… but… I’ll try to sneak in front of ya… I’m actually at your… oh… about… one o’clock.
+07:55 ( 1638.45 / 4:38.45 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Okay… and we’re lookin’…
+08:03 ( 1638.53 / 4:38.53 PM )
(B33 – French): And I’m at… uh… six thousand, Kevin, kinda low out your one o’clock moving twelve.
+08:10 ( 1639.00 / 4:39.00 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Yea… I got a beacon there… yea… I got your lights.
NOTE: The EMERGENCY radio calls from Granite Mountain on the Air-To-Ground channel begin HERE at 4:39:13 PM, but Thomas French is not listening to the Air-To-Ground channel and does not hear them… nor does John Burfiend alert him about these radio calls at this time. It would, apparently, be another TWO minutes before right-seater John Burfiend would even advise French about what was transpiring on the the Air-To-Ground radio channel… and only after being ordered to respond to those A2G radio calls by OPS1 Todd Abel. In this Air-To-Air radio channel recording, all we hear is Thomas French ‘going about his business’ and discussing a possible retardant drop with VLAT DC10 901 and pilot ‘Kevin’… who he calls by name again…
+08:54 ( 1639.44 / 4:39.44 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay Kevin… if you’ve still got me in sight… basically we wanna start here… and just kinda contour. I was at 49 at the start. 48 here… we’ll just bring it around level 4. If ya get to this… this point… just go straight towards the meadow here.
+09:08 ( 1639.58 / 4:39.58 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Okay… run it all the way out to the meadow if we’ve got enough?
———————————————————————————–
It would not be for another 2 full minutes that there is any indication on the ‘Air-To-Air’ radio channel that Thomas French is even ‘aware’ of the deployment that is ‘in progress’. When French is finally made aware of the situation… he then informs VLAT DC10 910 pilot ‘Kevin’ about it ( using his name once again )…
———————————————————————————–
+10:19 ( 1641.09 / 4:41.09 PM )
(B33 – French): Hey… uh… Kevin… uh… we got… situation’s changed and we got some folks in trouble and I don’t know where they’re at yet… uh… just… uh… standby.
+10:31 ( 1641.21 / 4:41.21 PM )
(B33 – French): Looks like we may have a deployment in progress so… uh… dial me up a level six for now and I don’t know what the… ah… drop sequence is gonna be yet.
+10:39 ( 1641.29 / 4:41.29 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): I’m just gonna tag in behind ya and follow ya, then.
———————————————————————————–
From the SAIT interview with Thomas French and John Burfiend.
In this part of the interview, when French was describing the moments following Eric Marsh saying they were “deploying shelters”, French confirms he relayed this to the pilot of the VLAT DC10 910 he was working with at that same time… whose first name was ‘Kevin’…
———————————————————————————–
Division A ( Eric Marsh ) called and said “we are starting a burn out,
we are getting in our shelters. I said we got people in trouble. Tanker
called and said I got you in sight. I claimed out – the DC10 swung wide.
I looked at John ( Burfiend ) and he did this (slash across the throat).
I told Kevin to stand by.
———————————————————————————–
** Kevin Hopf
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Interview with 10 Tanker Chief Pilot ( Kevin Hopf )
Published: June 13, 2016
http://fireaviation.com/2016/06/13/interview-with-10-tanker-chief-pilot/
Video Caption: Interview with Kevin Hopf, Chief Pilot for ’10 Tanker Air Carrier’,
the operator of the three DC-10 air tankers that can carry 11,600 gallons of retardant.
Here is VLAT pilot Kevin Hopf being identified as one of the VLAT pilots that was working BOTH the ‘Doce’ fire in Prescott in 2013 and then, immediately after that, the Yarnell Hill Fire.
It includes good ‘photographs’ of VLAT pilot Kevin Hopf, sitting in the pilot’s seat of one of the VLATS used on those TWO fires.
Yavapai County – June 18th through July 7th, 2013
An Exposition of the Doce, Yarnell Hill Wildfire, and the Fallen 19
http://coyotecampaign.org/documents/Denny%20Faulk%20Wildfires%202013.pdf
From that report…
————————————————————————
PDF page 10 ( of 27 )
Photographs of VLAT pilot Kevin Hopf in the cockpit, and standing outside the plane.
The pilot of the other VLAT was named Jack Maxey.
————————————————————————
Prior to arriving over Yarnell wasn’t the VLAT, piloted by Kevin Hopf ,directed by Burfiend to continue the work in Peeples Valley instead of going to Yarnell as directed by Roy Collins?
Reply to diane lomas post on August 6, 2016 at 3:19 pm
>> diane lomas asked…
>>
>> Prior to arriving over Yarnell wasn’t the VLAT, piloted by Kevin Hopf ,
>> directed by Burfiend to continue the work in Peeples Valley instead
>> of going to Yarnell as directed by Roy Collins?
That’s correct… except the VLAT that was ‘inbound’ at 3:50 PM was VLAT 911, piloted by Jack Maxey.
That’s the one that Rory Collins had told French was ‘inbound’ circa 3:50 PM… and the one they had both AGREED to use in the Yarnell area when it arrived, but when Rory Collins left the fire French just ignored that ‘agreement’ he had made with Collins circa 3:50 PM and had VLAT 911 come up to the NORTH side of the fire instead.
Here is where French is having VLAT 911 drop on the NORTH side of the fire… and he calls pilot ‘Jack Maxey’ by his first name right after the first drop…
——————————————————————————
+27:28 ( 1615:26 / 4:15:26 PM )
(B33 – French): Nicely done, Jack. That was right on. You got any left?
+27:31 ( 1615:29 / 4:15:29 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 911): Got about two thousand left.
+27:34 ( 1615:32 / 4:15:32 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… follow me around…
————————————————————————
They ‘circled around’ and the same VLAT 911 then dropped AGAIN in the same location there on the NORTH side of the fire.
After that… French told pilot ‘Jack Maxey’ in VLAT 911 he was cleared
off the fire to fly back to Phoenix to “load and return”.
French then STAYED there on the north side and continued to use all the arriving SEAT tankers up there to continue to ‘tidy up’ his retardant project there, even though the wind had shifted completely and the fire was now headed directly towards Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
VLAT 910 piloted by Kevin Hopf was now ‘inbound’ from Phoenix but would not ‘arrive’ in the Yarnell area until just before the deployment radio traffic was going to appear on the Air-To-Ground radio channel at 4:39 PM.
That means VLAT 910 had a FULL LOAD, and had not dropped ANY of its retardant yet when the ‘deployment’ situation developed at 4:39 PM.
What was the location that Burfiend was directing VLAT pilot to drop retardant on at 4:39 pm?
Reply to diane lomas post on August 6, 2016 at 3:39 pm
>> diane lomas asked…
>>
>> What was the location that Burfiend was directing VLAT
>> pilot to drop retardant on at 4:39 pm?
The only place where, circa 4:39 PM, it was still feasible to do that, since French had wasted all that time after 3:50 PM before getting ‘down’ to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah Side of the fire.
The ‘smoke column’ had begun to ‘lay over’… and the only place left to make CLEAR ( relatively risk-free ) retardant drops was on the very NORTH side of Yarnell, just past Shrine Road and that ‘U-Store-It’ facility.
As in… right HERE…
http://www.gq.com/static/long-form/images/0.7.23/pages/no_exit/inset/aftermath.jpg
At 5:06 PM… and even 10 minutes before DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 would first ‘lift off’ to even begin looking for ‘Granite Mountain’… Thomas French and John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ decided there wasn’t anything they could do anymore with regards to the Granite Mountain deployment thing… so they then just went ‘back to work’ doing exactly what they had been doing attempting to do with VLAT 910 ( and pilot Kevin Hopf ) right before Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY call.
They just ‘resumed’ working on that retardant line there on the NORTH side of Yarnell and near that ‘U-Store-It’ facility ( as seen in the photo above ).
French did one more VLAT drop there ( also captured in a video that had been posted to YouTube by Globe DOC Crew Corrections officer ‘4490red’ ) and then French ‘handed off’ Air Attack to ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis ).
During the handoff is when Rusty Warbis ASKED Thomas French if he wanted him to just continue that retardant line ( as seen in the photo above ).
Thomas French is then recorded ‘laughing’ on the Air-To-Air channel and admitting to incoming Air Attack Rusty Warbis that he had taken too long to get down to Yarnell and that project wasn’t even what he had WANTED to do.
French had WANTED to start that retardant line further to the SOUTH, in an attempt to protect Yarnell proper… but by the time he had gotten down there he had LOST the opportunity to do that…
——————————————————————-
+21:07 ( 1706.26 / 5:06.26 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Are you lookin’ at just extendin’ that line.
+21:10 ( 1706.29 / 5:06.29 PM )
(B33 – French): Well… ( he laughs)… that’s… that’s not even the line I wanted.
I wanted to be further to the south… Break. Seven Four Nine… Bravo Three
Three… you’re clear to the dip.
——————————————————————–
“…that’s not even the line I wanted.
I wanted to be further to the SOUTH”
A deployment has occurred in an area that Thomas French had been directed to go to 40 minutes earlier and he is laughing about his miscalculations with a retardant line. I don’t understand how this pilot is prioritizing his work. Peoples’ lives were depending on him and he is disconnected from the situation.
Maybe his laugh is not a “funny ” laugh but more of a “nervous” one??? People do that sometimes while under stress…
WTKTT,
You posted: “… retardant line there on the NORTH side of Yarnell and near that ‘U-Store-It’ facility ( as seen in the photo above ).”
This retardant line WITHOUT any type of constructed control line was WORTHLESS and that is why the fire burned right through it.
You also posted: ” Thomas French is then recorded ‘laughing’ on the Air-To-Air channel and admitting to incoming Air Attack Rusty Warbis that he had taken too long to get down to Yarnell and THAT PROJECT WASN’T EVEN WHAT HE WANTED TO DO. (EMPHASIS ADDED)
He could have been laughing to relieve stress because the Airtanker pilot did not drop the retardant in the correct location or any number of other things the Airtanker pilot(s) did and/or did not accomplish bbased on the directions and instructions relayed to them.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
August 8, 2016 at 9:00 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>>
.>> You posted: “… retardant line there on the NORTH
>> side of Yarnell and near that ‘U-Store-It’ facility
>> ( as seen in the photo above ).”
>>
>> This retardant line WITHOUT any type of constructed
>> control line was WORTHLESS and that is why the
>> fire burned right through it.
Wrong.
I don’t think you actually looked at the photo above and/or you are confusing this ‘retardant’ line with the one that was laid from west-to-east across the ‘middle bowl’ earlier in the day under the direction of Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ).
THAT one was ‘worthless’… and the fire DID just ‘burn right through it’… but the one in the following photograph ‘held the EAST flank’…
http://www.gq.com/static/long-form/images/0.7.23/pages/no_exit/inset/aftermath.jpg
That ‘retardant line’ heading from Shrine road north, past the U-Store-It facility and then out into the foothills NEVER had ANY ‘control line’ or ‘ground support’ backing it up… and it was a complete SUCCESS.
It kept that EAST flank of the fire from moving any closer to town… and there is NO evidence that there was EVER any ‘ground support’ associated with it.
At the time that retardant line was even started… the Blue Ridge Hotshots were doing nothing but evacuating off the fire down to the Ranch House Restaurant… where they just ‘parked’ and never had any other ‘assignment’ that day.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You also posted: ” Thomas French is then recorded
>> ‘laughing’ on the Air-To-Air channel and admitting to
>> incoming Air Attack Rusty Warbis that he had taken
>> too long to get down to Yarnell and THAT PROJECT
>> WASN’T EVEN WHAT HE WANTED TO DO. (EMPHASIS
>> ADDED)
>>
>> He could have been laughing to relieve stress
>> because the Airtanker pilot did not drop the
>> retardant in the correct location or any number
>> of other things the Airtanker pilot(s) did and/or
>> did not accomplish bbased on the directions
>> and instructions relayed to them.
Wrong again.
Listen to the recordings and look at the photograph above.
On the contrary… the one SEAT drop that took place ‘on that line’ just before the deployment was ‘spot on’ and French was ‘congratulating’ that pilot on going right between the fire and a house and dropping EXACTLY where he wanted him to.
French only got to do one more drop on that ‘project’ to the north of town before having to hand off ‘Air Attack’ to Rusty Warbis in ‘Bravo 3’… and that, too, was ‘spot on’ where French wanted it.
What he was ‘laughing’ about to Rusty Warbis was, indeed, a ‘nervous’ sort of laugh… but it was because even French knew that ‘line’ wasn’t what he had WANTED to do… which was to START the line further south in order to protect more of Yarnell proper instead of just that ‘north’ part where the U-Store-It facility was.
But he had wasted so much time just ‘finishing up’ his little Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road retardant project ( with only a few already-abandoned structures at risk ) up on the NORTH side that by the time he got to Yarnell the ‘project’ you see in the photo above was the only thing he was able to do ( because the smoke column had already begun to ‘lay down’ and the fire was racing right into Yarnell and Glen Ilah already.
WTKTT,
Here is a YouTube video clip of a VERY BASIC airtanker drop down in mild weather with virtaually no winds, down an OPEN ridge.
The narrator in the video, like you is all about DRAMA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QJTZXl_5BE
Imagine a VLAT attempting this same drop in the YH Fire Death Bowl area. It would have been a DISASTER!
That looks pretty routine to me ( for these VLAT cowboys ).
He didn’t even go ‘down in the bowl’ ( in the video above ).
He just ‘painted the ridge’, banked out, went about his business.
Bredan McDonough’s video seems to be just as ‘risky’ as that one.
It is here…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADfRvBkDs_EsAnIo0kKVU_2a/Photos%20and%20Video/Brendan%20McDonough%20Photos?dl=0&preview=20130630_134022.mp4
That’s the one where Brendan filmed that ‘near collision’ between the VLAT and the Skycrane Helicopter.
The VLAT came in from the WEST…. as low as he felt ‘safe’ over the Weaver Ridge ( which was much higher at that point than the southern part where the box canyon actually was )… and he maintained that level for the ‘drop’ there in that ‘middle bowl’.
Higher than he might have wanted to be… but the actual ground coverage ended up THICK and GOOD ( as verified with other photographs ).
You seem to have your carts and your horses all mixed up here.
Let me try to ‘realign’ you.
The ONLY way they could have even reached the point where they ( specifically, Thomas French in consultation with VLAT 910 pilot Kevin Hopf ) could have even BEGUN to decide whether an ’emergency drop’ was even possible that day in Yarnell is if they had had some GOOD idea of WHERE to attempt it.
The “South side of the fire” was all they were left with to ‘go on’ following that botched MAYDAY exchange on the radio.
That was NOT ‘specific enough’ to even consider attempting it… so they didn’t.
IAOI ( If And Only If ) they had some good ( or even EXACT ) LOCATION to consider… would they THEN have had to make the decision whether to attempt it, or not.
And that ‘decision’ was not yours… or mine… or anyone else’s.
It would have been totally up to them.
They could have decided an EAST to WEST approach, flare out, exit had more of a chance than any kind of WEST to EAST approach… or perhaps even and ‘angle’ attack coming from the NE and to the SW… with just a ‘jack the power’ pull up exactly like the VLAT did in Twisp.
Who knows ( not me ).
But do you have your horse PULLING your cart now and not PUSHING it?
There WAS no ‘discussion’ about whether to even ‘attempt’ it… because they had no fucking idea WHERE to even attempt it.
And the REASONS why they had no fucking idea where to attempt it were…
1. GM failed to provide their exact location in their MAYDAY calls themselves.
2. John Burfiend IGNORED their radio calls for so long that when he was finally ordered to respond by OPS1 Todd Abel… and then Burfiend BEGAN to try and ascertain their location…. it was too late… and all they had to go on then was this generic “South Side of the Fire” thing.
Not good enough.
Opportunity to ascertain a location even good enough to BEGIN to decide whether any ‘drop’ was even possible had already been LOST.
B33 knew GM were on the south side of the fire.
Wasn’t even a question
Reply to calvin post on August 6, 2016 at 4:47 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> B33 knew GM were on the south side of the fire.
>>
>> Wasn’t even a question
That’s correct.
By the end of that totally-botched emergency radio exchange… ‘B33’ knew no more about there EXACT location than before it started.
But ‘the south side of the fire’ wasn’t enough information to even BEGIN to decide whether an ’emergency drop’ was even ‘possible’… or not.
Because GM didn’t have the sense to just SAY where they were without waiting for ‘permission to speak’…. and because John Burfiend ignored them for 2 full minutes until being ORDERED by OPS1 Todd Abel to talk to them… the opportunity to have ‘enough’ information to even BEGIN to make any kind of ‘drop or no drop’ decision was LOST.
WTKTT,
Regarding the YouTube video of a VLAT retardant drop I posted, you then posted: “That looks pretty routine to me ( for these VLAT cowboys ).
“He didn’t even go ‘down in the bowl’ ( in the video above ).”
That is absolutely correct and pretty much what I said originally.
I was hoping that you would infer that with the YH Fire BSR ‘bowl’ terrain restrictions, that it would have been IMPOSSIBLE. But NO.
You also posted: “There WAS no ‘discussion’ about whether to even ‘attempt’ it…”
And HOW to you know this? There are NO recordings of any othe the intercom communications between any of the pilots in the same plane.
You also posted: “Opportunity to ascertain a location even good enough to BEGIN to decide whether any ‘drop’ was even possible had already been LOST.”
WRONG! The opportunity was NOT lost because it could NOT be done. get over it.
Where was the Big Question????
By the time they started the We are in Front of the Flaming Front it was to late and the winds were to high and the smoke collum was laid over there location there was absolutely no way to drop on them.
Air tanker drops are not a precision thing with 20 MPH winds and smoke obscuring the location..
They also would have to make there drop on a down hill run precisely into the canyon low enough to have a solid slurry the higher the less likely it would hold together.
The time frame to set up the drop was against the crew as well.
The drop would have been a highly unsafe maneuver.
To many things against the ability to have been Feasible and safe.
They should have never have been where they were in the first place.
When they committed to that canyon they were on their own………….
Wasn’t the Hail Mary plan a team approach?
**
** SOBERANES FIRE WAS CAUSED BY AN UNATTENDED CAMPFIRE
The Los Angeles Times
Article Title: Abandoned, illegal campfire blamed for fatal Soberanes fire in Monterey County
Published: August 2, 2016 – 9:10 PM
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-soberanes-fire-cause-campfire-20160802-snap-story.html
——————————————————————-
An abandoned, illegal campfire sparked the Soberanes fire that has scorched more
than 67-square miles of Monterey County and killed one person, state fire officials announced Tuesday.
The campfire was about 2-feet by 2-feet and burning away from official hiking trails and campsites when it triggered the larger blaze a few miles east of Highway 1 north of Soberanes Creek Trail July 22, an investigator with the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection said.
Authorities are still searching for the person or persons who started the campfire.
——————————————————————-
** COMPANY THAT EMPLOYED DOZER OPERATOR ROBERT REAGAN, WHO WAS KILLED
** IN THE SOBERANES FIRE, HAD ITS LICENSE SUSPENDED 8 TIMES IN 4 YEARS.
KQED News
Article Title: Employer of Worker Killed in Soberanes Fire Under Scrutiny
Published: August 2, 20167
http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2016/08/02/employer-of-worker-killed-in-soberanes-fire-under-scrutiny/
——————————————————————
The construction company that employed a bulldozer operator killed last week in the massive Soberanes wildfire in Monterey County has had its license suspended eight times by state regulators in the last four years.
Robert Reagan, the 35-year-old Friant man who was working the fire when the bulldozer he was operating rolled over, was employed by Czirban Concrete Construction, said Julia Bernstein, a spokeswoman for California’s Division of Occupational Safety and Health (Cal/OSHA,) which is investigating his death.
The construction company, which is based in Coarsegold (Madera County), recently told the Contractors State License Board (CSLB) it had no employees and therefore did not need to provide worker’s compensation, board spokesman Rick Lopes said.
If the company had no workers’ compensation insurance, it could be harder for Reagan’s relatives to collect money because of his death.
Czirban Concrete is one of a number of companies Cal Fire has contracted with on the Soberanes Fire — a practice the agency employs on large fires.
In an email, Cal Fire confirmed its Madera-Mariposa-Merced unit has a “call when needed” vendor contract with Czirban, and that the vendor has responded to 10 fires in the last 10 years, nine of those times with a bulldozer.
Cal Fire also emphasized that it requires vendors to have workers’ compensation insurance, and that vendors must sign an agreement to that effect under penalty of perjury.
Cal Fire’s Serious Accident Investigation Team is looking into the circumstances surrounding Reagan’s death, but few details have been released about it.
Cal Fire says he died sometime between last Tuesday night and the following Wednesday morning.
Reagan was not in the middle of a firefight at the time, according to U.S. Forest Service spokeswoman Paula Martinez.
“He was just coming on shift so it wasn’t like he was actively engaged in fire suppression at the time of the accident,” Martinez said, adding that the incident took place in the Palo Colorado Canyon area.
——————————————————————
Holy Wacked Out and Woefully Wide of the Mark Woodsman,
I am bringing this to the top so as not to have it lose in the weeds and to allow room for comments.
That was QUITE the tirade. Where do I start?
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343674
You posted: “Here Ye, Here Ye, Here Ye…School’s in Session”
I am all about learning but I am definitely NOT interested in your perverted thinking on the tried-and-trued WFF Rules.
You posted: “it’s way past time to pull the brakes on this runaway obfuscation train.” Really? And yet you then go off on a rant of your own, mystifying and confusing the most basic, tried-and-trued WF Rules and Guidelines and stand everything on it’s head. WTF?
Yes, agreed there are MANY ‘Lies of Management.’ The ’10 and 18′ are NOT any of those lies.
You posted: “Hidden Lies of the Indoctrinated Wildland Fire Fighter
“1. The fire shelter will save you as a last resort.
“It will do no such thing! The folly of the fire shelter will dull your senses to reality and contribute to questionable risk tolerance either on the conscious or subconscious level, leading to excess exposure to harm. Besides, that bitch weighs a ton!”
Totally in agreement here on the fire shelter issue, yet the USFS and the Fire Shelter Empire builders at MTDC belive the fire shelter lie.
You posted: “2. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR WILDLAND FIRE FIGHTERS TO FOLLOW THE TEN STANDARD ORDERS.
“The primary barrier to your understanding of the previous proclamation is your pervasive foundational indoctrination at all levels of your training.
“The Ten Standard Orders are designed to shield management from responsibility for anything and everything that occurs on the fire. You cannot follow any of them at all times.”
You are WRONG here (in “2.”) because it is entirely POSSIBLE for WFF to follow the 10 Standard Fire Orders.
Yes, I am sure that there are SOME that miss or skip one or two, however, to include ALL of the WFF’s is the logical Fallacy of Composition.The Fallacy of Composition states either (1) a conclusion is drawn about a whole based on the features of its constituents when, in fact, no justification provided for the inference OR (2) when it is concluded that what is true of the parts of a whole must be true of the whole without there being adequate justification for the claim.
Knowing and following the WF Rules and Guidelines has been going on for years, successfully. AND you have no data to back it up whereas the contrary (the 10/18 are followed) has tens of thousands of cases every fire season where WFF’s apply them from memory and/or their IRPG.
There is NO primary barrier to my understanding of the previous untruthful proclamation because it is entirely POSSIBLE for WFF to follow the 10 Standard Fire Orders. It has been going on for years, successfully. Once again, there are tens of thousands of cases every fire season where WFF’s apply them from memory and/or their IRPG.
You are WRONG, I have NO ‘pervasive foundational indoctrination at all levels of [my] training.’
I follow the precepts of the Special Forces of overtraining to the point of it becoming second nature. Researcher Dr. Karl Weick, in South Canyon Revisited (USFS-MTDC), says that “in times of the highest stress, TRAINED individuals fall back on the highest level of overtraining.”
“Stress matters” according to researcher Daniel Goleman. When stressed, we are inhibited in practicing new ways of thinking, and instead rely on familiar habits. Your brain physiologically cannot process new information. It is referred to as an ‘Amygdala Hijack.’
“An Amygdala Hijack is an immediate and overwhelming emotional response out of proportion to the stimulus because it has triggered a more significant emotional threat. The amygdala is the part of our brain that handles emotions. During an Amygdala Hijack, the amygdala “hijacks” or shuts down the neo-cortex.” (‘Emotional Intelligence’ by Daniel Goleman – 1996)
Sydney Dekker (2012) refers to it as ‘Tunneling’ or ‘Fixation’ – locking on to one explanation of your world at which point your behavior is driven by events and difficult to anticipate and influence future circumstances.
These are what occurred on the 1994 South Canyon Fire (IC sharpening his saw chain rather than managing), the 2002 Thirty-Mile Fire when the IC was mopping up with hoses and nozzles rather than managing, and the most recent, 2013YH Fire where the GMHS were referring to themselves on A/G as “Granite Mountain 7″AND resorting to what they were most familiar with, normalizing deviance and selectively following the 10 and 18.
Once again, there are tens of thousands of cases every fire season where WFF’s apply them from memory and/or their IRPG.
TEACHING EVERYONE TO KNOW AND FOLLOW THE 10 AND 18 AT ALL TIMES ON THE FIRELINE AS THE ANSWER TO EVERY QUESTION ABOUT WF SAFETY is NOT as you claim, “a fundamental impossibility … wildland fire fighters cannot follow them no matter what you say. … you cannot make what’s impossible possible.”
As a matter of fact, IT IS POSSIBLE because myself and many other highly experienced WFF Supervisors have been doing it safely successfully for decades. Once again, there are tens of thousands of cases every fire season where WFF’s apply them from memory and/or their IRPG.
You posted: “… THE 10 AND 18 [are the] THE ANSWER TO EVERY QUESTION ABOUT WF SAFETY …”
NO, they are NOT ‘THE ANSWER,’ however, they are ALMOST ALWAYS one of the many answers to WF safety issues.
You claim that “is in fact the actual intent of the ten [fire] orders – [as] a checklist for management following tragedy fires. They check off each violation when they ask themselves “what is the answer to every question.” It’s a very efficient process to assign blame.”
That is NOT fact but instead someone’s OPINION. On the contrary, the ‘actual intent of the ten [fire] orders” is WFF SAFETY, PERIOD. It is your opinion that it is a management ploy to ‘blame’ WFF’s. And Dr. Putnam and I wholeheartedly disagree on this issue and we have had many discussions on the matter that is okay.
Investigators SHOULD check off each violation when they ask themselves “what is the answer to every question” about WFF Rule violations. Yes, indeed, “it is a very efficient process to assign blame” where it is appropriate, to those who refused to comply with the proven, tried-and-trued WFF Rules and Guidelines.
There is NO ’10 and 18′ intent to shield management from responsibility, instead the 10 and 18, the WFF Rules and Guidelines are designed to protect fire fighters from harm while engaged on a wildfire. And they do so quite successfully. Once again, there are tens of thousands of cases every fire season where WFF’s apply them from memory and/or their IRPG.
“Risk must be managed but cannot be eliminated while suppressing wildfires.”
I ABSOLUTELY AGREE that Risk must be managed but cannot be eliminated while suppressing wildfires.
You posted: “By mindlessly regurgitating the 10 orders and forcing personnel to memorize them, you are reducing the chance of identifying the actual causal factors follow a tragedy on a wildfire because you will stop looking for them. – you have checked all the boxes already and your mind is made up!”
Disagree here. There may be SOME mindlessly regurgitating the 10 orders but the vast majority of others are consciously and knowingly memorizing and quoting and following them.
Forcing them to memorize them? Really? Where – When – Who FORCES their WFF’s to do this? We ENCOURAGED them to do so!
No, myself and other WFF Supervisors are NOT reducing the chance of identifying the actual causal factors that follow a tragedy on a wildfire because I will NEVER stop looking for them. – I have checked some, but not all, of the boxes already and my mind is NOT made up.
We are still finding things out about fatality and near-tragedy fires every single Staff Ride and/or Site Visit and/or discussion with those that were there. ”THAT IS WHERE Human Factors and Human Error comes into play.
I posted “There has NEVER been a wildfire where a WFF has followed all The WFF Rules and ended up unexpectedly burned over, deployed a fire shelter, and/or died. NEVER!”
Your reply: “THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A WILDFIRE WHERE A WFF HAS FOLLOWED ALL THE WFF RULES – full stop!”
Really? That is a really lame statement coming from a wise man like you. Prove that to me!
No more words need to be said in response to this statement you posted because the rest of your scenario cannot be proved that “… no one can follow all of the orders all of the time.” See above.
Since the 2013 YH Fire, the basic WF Rules and Guidelines have come under intense scrutiny like I have never seen before. it is disturbing to me. It certainly appears that you have gotten all wound up in the morass. Watch out!
Based on your Wonky Woodsman logic on the very basic tried-and-trued WFF Rules and Guidelines that are proven to work every single fire season and your worldview on the same, from what you have posted here; I am considering whether or not to include you, a trained and qualified WF Supervisor, in the Watch Out 19 realm.
Be safe My Friend and really listen to and seek the counsel of those that you supervise, the many that have memorized and know and regularly and faithfully apply the WF Rules and Guidelines.
CORRECTION in paragraph
My post a few paragraphs and sentences from the top was : “You posted: “2. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR WILDLAND FIRE FIGHTERS TO FOLLOW THE TEN STANDARD ORDERS.
<
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I incorrectly posted: "Knowing and following the WF Rules and Guidelines has been going on for years, successfully. AND you have no data to back it up whereas the contrary (the 10/18 are followed) has tens of thousands of cases every fire season where WFF’s apply them from memory and/or their IRPG."
What I MEANT to post is: ""Knowing and following the WF Rules and Guidelines has been going on for years, successfully. AND you have no data to back it up your claim that "IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR WILDLAND FIRE FIGHTERS TO FOLLOW THE TEN STANDARD ORDERS, whereas the contrary (the 10/18 are followed) has tens of thousands of cases every fire season where WFF’s apply them from memory and/or their IRPG."
Reply to Diane lomas post on August 4, 2016 at 8:02 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> During the ADOSH interview of Burfiend when the 40 minute delay
>> in going to Yarnell as well as the 2 minute delay in radio response
>> to Granite Mountain was discussed what was the response from ADOSH ?
Despite great efforts… the investigators for the Arizona Department of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) were NEVER allowed to interview Thomas French, John Burfiend… or even the ATS trainee Clint Cross who was also physically present in that ‘Bravo 33’ aircraft that day.
Here is the initial email sent from AODSH Lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg requesting ‘access’ to ‘aviation’ people like the occupants of ‘Bravo 33’… Thomas French, John Burfiend and ATS Trainee Clint Cross…
NOTE: At this point in time… ADOSH was still unsure if all of these individuals were actually USFS employees. As it turned out… people like Air Attack Rory Collins were NOT. Collins worked for Oregon State Forestry and ADOSH resumed its attempts to interview him with THAT agency.
————————————————————————-
From: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA ( mailto – Krotenberg.Marshall (at) dol.gov )
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 12:31 PM
To: Graham, Helen -FS
Subject: ADOSH Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation
Importance: High
Ms. Graham,
As I mentioned on the telephone this morning, I am the lead investigator for ADOSH regarding the Granite Mountain IHC fatalities. As part of our investigation we wish to speak with following individuals that we believed to be Forest Service aviation employees assigned to the Yarnell Hill Fire on Sunday, June 30, 2013:
Rory Collins
Clint Cross
Paul Lenmark
Rusty Warbis
Thomas French
John Burfiend
We would prefer to conduct interviews in person; however, a telephone interview may be more appropriate due to timing and work locations.
Please forward my request to appropriate staff so as to expedite necessary arrangements. If you should have any questions, please call me.
Thank you in advance for your time.
Regards,
Marshall Krotenberg, CIH, CSP Safety Compliance Supervisor
Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
800 W. Washington Street
Phoenix, AZ 85007 direct: 602-542-1668 fax: 602-542-1614
krotenberg.marshall (at) dol.gov
——————————————————————————–
This ‘request’ from ADOSH then generated a FLURRY of emails ( also recently obtained via FOIA request(s) )… but the content of ALL of those subsequent emails are BLACKED OUT ( REDACTED ) in the FOIA release.
In that FLURRY of emails that followed… we can SEE the email addresses of Thomas French, John Burfiend and Clint Cross being ‘included’ on all the subsequent conversations… but the content of all those emails is still totally REDACTED.
USFS ended up DENYING the simple request to talk to their employees and told ADOSH they would have to file full-blown ‘Touhy’ requests to try and interview them.
A ‘Touhy’ request is a FORMAL request to take ‘depositions’ from Federal Employees.
ADOSH did so… but their valid ‘Touhy’ requests were also subsequently DENIED.
So USFS made a great effort to PREVENT the ADOSH investigators from having any chance to even ‘talk’ to Thomas French, John Burfiend or Clint Cross.
However… we KNOW that Mike Dudley and the SAIT have FULL access to them and that THEY were able to interview them and then CONTINUED to have full ‘access’ to these individuals even after the ADOSH request was DENIED.
Here is an email that Mike Dudley sent 11 days AFTER the ADOSH request to interview people like ‘Thomas French’ and ‘John Burfiend’.
ADOSH was denied ANY access to them… but here ( just 11 days later ) is proof that SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley had complete access to these individuals ( Burfiend, etc. ) and Burfiend himself was already working with Dudley and ‘reviewing’ one of the drafts of the SAIR document…
————————————————————————-
From: Mike Dudley – USDA Forest Service – mdudley (at) fs.fed.us
To: Richa Wilson, Jim Karels, Randy Draeger…
Sent: Aug 31, 2013, at 16:41,
Subject: Re: Read Back schedule
Here’s what I got so far for next week.
I fly into Phoenix Tuesday at noon and will head immediately to Prescott.
I’ve arrange a meeting room at the Prescott Fire Center.
Tuesday 8/3 at 1500 we will meet in person with Roy Hall, Gary Cordes, and Paul Musser.
Wednesday 8/4 at 0900 we will meet with Brendan McDonough.
Wednesday 8/4 at 1100 we will meet with Russ Shumate.
John Burfiend of 833 will do his review by email and already has it.
He’ll let me know when we can discuss by phone.
I will also do Todd Abel by email because of his schedule or maybe Brad can meet
with him early on Tuesday and do it in person. We’ll discuss.
I’ve made contact with Dan Philbin and have an appointment for 1600 next
Tuesday to call him.
I have a voice mail to Rory Collins and waiting to hear back from him.
MD
Mike Dudley – USDA Forest Service – mdudley (at) fs.fed.us
801-540-4881
————————————————————————-
After getting completely ‘stonewalled’ by US Forestry… ADOSH went ‘up the chain’ to their own FEDERAL level OSHA management with the following email on August 26, 2013.
NOTE that by the time they sent this email… ADOSH had also already learned that the Panebaker AFUE Air Study videos from Yarnell had ALWAYS been in the possession of the Arizona Forestry contracted SAIT team… and that the SAIT had ( apparently ) been given specific instructions ( by US Forestry ) to HIDE that evidence from ADOSH and to NOT supply it to them.
————————————————————————–
From: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 12:05 PM
To: Barnett, Zachary – OSHA
Cc: William Warren
Subject: Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation
Mr. Barnett,
We have run into a roadblock/delay regarding access to Federal employees and audio/video recordings generated by Federal personnel. Unfortunately, such delays may impact our our ability to conduct a thorough investigation within the allotted 6-month timeframe.
The ADOSH incident investigation team wishes to interview the following federal government employees as fact witnesses:
– Brian Frisby, Superintendent, Blue Ridge IHC – Coconino National Forest.
We don’t know where Blue Ridge IHC currently resides. They had been working in Idaho; however, the latest schedule ( SWCC ) indicates that they are currently unavailable for work.
– Two Blue Ridge IHC regular firefighters ( FF1 or FF2 )
– Thomas French, Aviation, USDA – FS, New Mexico
– John Burfiend, Aviation, USDA – FS, New Mexico
– Rance Marquez, Division Superintendent, BLM, Arizona
Also…
Based on discussions with Forest Service personnel, radio communications and video generated as part of a fire retardant effectiveness study were recorded at the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013. These recordings have reportedly been provided to the Serious Accident Investigation Team ( SAIT ) commissioned by the Arizona State Forester. The USDA Forest Service has reportedly ORDERED the SAIT to NOT provide this information to ADOSH.
On or about June 16, 2013, ADOSH requested copies of ALL audio and video from the AZ State Forester. It wasn’t until last week that we learned that the subject audio/video was the exclusive property of the USDA Forest Service.
Thanks for your assistance,
Marshall Krotenberg, CIH, CSP
Safety Compliance Supervisor
Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
800 W. Washington Street
Phoenix, AZ 85007
————————————————————————–
FEDERAL OSHA representatives did attempt to intervene and force US Forestry to be more cooperative… but to no avail.
US Forestry still DENIED the ADOSH investigators any permission to ‘talk’ to any of their employees ( but ADOSH did receive permission from the Bureau of Land Management to eventually interview Rance Marquez ).
And once those efforts failed… here is Marshall Krotenberg telling ADOSH attorney Christopher Anderson it’s time to draft a letter directly to the US Secretary of the Interior ( Sally Jewell ) alerting her to the ongoing obstructive behavior on the part of her US Forestry subordinates.
—————————————————————————
From: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 9:43 AM
To: Christopher Anderson
Cc: William Warren, McGrory, Laura L. – Arizona State, Barnett, Zachary – OSHA
Subject: Yarnell Fire Investigation
Chris,
Zach Barnett from the Phoenix Area Office suggested that I draft a letter to agency regional administrators notifying them of our requests and associated delays.
I believe the NOTICE must go HIGHER UP in the chain of command.
I think we’ve been patient enough with these folks.
I’ve corresponded with underlings for weeks with no success.
I believe we need to provide a clear notice to the agency heads of our role to PROTECT WORKER SAFETY and that our reasonable requests have been unmet. I have little confidence that this letter will have much effect, but at least we did our part to notify those that could make a difference.
I propose we draft a letter to:
Sally Jewel, Secretary of the Interior, U.S. Department of the Interior
1849 C Street NW, Washington, DC 20240
Tom Vilsack, Secretay of Agriculture, U.S. Department of Agriculture
1400 Independence Ave., S.W. Washington, DC 20250
Cc:
Tom Tidwell, Chief, US Forest Service
1400 Independence Avenue, SW, Washington D.C. 20250-0003
Neil Kornze, Principal Deputy Director, Bureau of Land Management
1849 C Street NW, Rm. 5665, Washington DC 20240
Thomas Perez, Secretary of Labor
Frances Perkins Building, 200 Constitution Ave., NW, Washington, DC 20210
David Michaels, PhD, MPH, Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health,
200 Constitution Ave., NW, Washington,DC 20210
The letter should CLEARLY state the ROLE of ADOSH, our investigation of the Yarnell Hill Fire fatalities, and the FAILURE of their Departments to make witnesses available for interview.
The excuse by the USDA legal staff that they don’t know the whereabouts of employees or that they are on assignments is unacceptable. I can’t wait to hear the REDACTED audio recordings that took several weeks to obtain.
Such apparent refusal to fully cooperate sends a CLEAR MESSAGE to the State of Arizona and to the NATION that wildland firefighter safety is NOT a priority within the main agencies tasked with wildland fire management.
As a result, the ADOSH investigation team EXPECTS a timely arrangement of witness interviews, production of written documents generated during the Yarnell Hill Fire by employees of the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management, and the UNALTERED audio/video generated by the Forest Service on the day of the tragic death of 19 wildland firefighters.
I’m not sure who should SIGN this letter, maybe Governor Jan Brewer, or Senator McCain, or Senator Flake?
Otherwise we should consider copying them and I’ll sign the letter.
Regards,
Marshall Krotenberg, CIH, CSP
Safety Compliance Supervisor
Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
800 W. Washington Street
Phoenix, AZ 85007
—————————————————————————
On August 4, 2016 at 12:51 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>> Diane,
>>
>> You posted: “Were the families upset with Thomas French?”
>>
>> At the fatality site during the family YH Fire Staff Ride, French told
>> those present that with the intense winds, the steep and deep canyon
>> walls encompassing The Bowl, and the alignment from which he would
>> have had to make his drops, any ‘rescue retardant drop’ would have
>> been “IMPOSSIBLE.”
>>
>> He said basically the same thing even if the conditions would have
>> been near perfect based on the alignment and terrain features alone.
>>
>> The families comforted and present seemed to be pleased knowing that.
Not ALL the ‘family members’ ( who were there along with YOU and the others ).
The parents of David and Shari Turbyfill posted PUBLIC comments to their own ‘Yarnell Fire Realities’ Public Group page on Facebook the day AFTER this ‘YH Fire Staff Ride’ ( which they participated in )… and they were pretty much DISGUSTED with everything they heard… and ESPECIALLY with Bravo 33’s John Burfiend’s comments and ‘condescending attitude’ in particular.
Facebook GROUP – Yarnell Fire Realities
Moderator(s): David and Shari Turbyfill ( parents of deceased GM Hotshot Travis Turbyfill )
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/
Shari Turbyfill talking about the April 5, 2016 ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Family Staff Ride’… and about HER face-to-face ‘conversation’ with Bravo 33’s John Burfiend…
——————————————————————————–
Bret Henry – April 14 at 6:11 pm
I believe, sadly, and from 23 years of fire experience, and after 9 years in the Marines, that, not always, but many fire management people, especially at the municipal level are, like politicians, sociopathic ego maniacs. Ie; listen to radio traffic on some tragedies… telling crews to be quiet that were calling for help. Many have heard this traffic… I wonder how that guy feels now, is he sad and it’s hard to live with or is he a chief somewhere enjoying many benefits and getting his lunch money back that was taken form him, telling grand stories of fire to any that listen.
Yarnell Fire Realities – April 14 at 6:06 pm
Brett Henry I asked him ( John Burfiend ) that question face to face of The Man Behind the microphone of Bravo 33. They fall back on some training saying proper protocol for emergency break in which we’ve discovered throughout the nation is not standard its random. There is no rule or guideline in wildfire….strutual yes……so more cover up more excuses no more truth truth is in the ground. this is JFK and Jimmy Hoffa all over again….. Arizona State Fire will never be a stand-up Department of the state with the personnel and culture currently in place . They have the truth but they’d rather cover their asses than be stand up people and do the right thing. We will never know the truth and that is really personal for 19 families – Shari ( Turbyfill )
Bret Henry – April 14 at 6:09 pm
Very sad. Generally speaking, it’s a bad culture. I would almost like to hear that he ( John Burfiend ) felt bad at least, for that.
Yarnell Fire Realities – April 14 at 8:12 pm
He ( John Burfiend ) did… and THEN proceeded to ‘educate me’ on why it wasn’t HIS fault.
——————————————————————————–
And here are more comments from Shari Turbyfill posted just 24 hours after she and her husband David participated in this ‘YH Fire Family Staff Ride’…
——————————————————————————–
Yarnell Fire Realities – April 6 at 12:59 pm
Some of us spent yesterday ( April 5, 2016 ) with all of the leaders of that fire and after a grueling 6 hour hike and stations of conversation at certain points it is my belief as far as Arizona State Fire goes it is very disconnected and there appears to be more of a culture of Delegation and not my job then true honesty integrity and transparency I’m a very unpopular person for having this opinion but my opinion was formed by the events that took place yesterday that I witnessed for myself. How do you change a culture when the leaders see nothing wrong with it? When asked questions and the answers are I don’t know. And how sad it is to read the comment of David sheets to never trust overhead. But with my experience sadly to say I think he’s right Wildland firefighting needs to be revamped completely the fires are different the world is different we can’t rely on how it used to be….. it’s killing us. I find this page valuable to those who want the truth. I also want those who read this page to know that the truth is very difficult to find. Rumors and gossip flow much more freely because you don’t have to prove it. This comment is posted exclusively from the observation and opinions I saw and formed yesterday – Shari ( Turbyfill )
Chad Walker – April 12 at 9:11 pm
Phoenix New Times
Wildfire Expert Alleges Arizona Forestry Division Covering Up Yarnell Hill Tragedy
Published: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 – By John Dougherty
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/…/wildfire-expert…
Have you seen any of these videos or pictures that the article speaks about?
Yarnell Fire Realities – April 13 at 12:31 pm
Yes Chad we have and hiked and saw with our own eyes the supposed decent to the ranch safety zone….you can not see the bowl where they died until you are half way down a rugged descent and it’s to the left on your right is a wall of boulders those boys had to be ordered down to Yarnell to reengage I cannot imagine them voluntarily choosing that path and then when the fire roared over the ranch they had no opportunity but to maybe go left and create a deployment site because there were no Communications . When it went bad it all went bad quickly and Bravo 33 was not much help by ignoring the repeated requests from Granite Mountain 7. Our boys are gone and covered in a veil of unclear cover-your-ass poor management. There are so many holes and so many disconnected answers from Arizona State Fire that I wouldn’t trust their policies guidelines and procedures to put out a piece of paper on fire in my kitchen sink. If you’re a wildland firefighter in the state of Arizona … Know for sure that the boys in Phoenix sitting at their desks being important don’t have your back they’re too busy covering their own ass. Instead of spending two and a half years blowing smoke up our ass trying to tell the families that our boys were idiots…. wouldn’t it have been more effective for Arizona State leadership to just tell the truth take the hit and be better for all the future Wildland firefighters in our state…… Nope cya is The Game Plan and more people will die it hurts my heart – Shari ( Turbyfill )
Suzanne Flynn – April 20 at 10:53 pm
Yarnell Fire Realities I’m very sorry for your loss.. I have been watching since the moment we all found out. You are not alone in your conclusion. with 27 years in this business and the past 13 mainly teaching, I have had a very difficult time with this particular accident. Please continue to search for your answers.
Diane Lomas – May 17 at 11:28 am
Interesting developments on Investigative Media chapter XXI on May 16 and 17th.
Pat Byrnes – May 22 at 10:23 am
Actually, the tragedy was on a Sunday afternoon, so the fire management folks in Phoenix were probably out on the golf course or having a pool party…. Sigh. Know that the 19 are remembered and many people would like to know and learn.
Yarnell Fire Realities – May 22 at 10:35 am
We will keep trying… And to Diane Lomas… investigativemedia cannot be judged on its individual articles this is a long process and I think if you stick with reading all of the chapters there are more to come many more. Read just the words without forming opinions … we can get more truth. I know John has pissed off a lot of people in his style of Journalism. Journalism in and of itself is part drama to gain your your readership and and part reality for facts. I would say stay open-minded read the words and wait for the ending.
Diane Lomas – May 22 at 11:17 am
Please explain your opinion I am not sure that I understand. I have been following investigative media for quite a while as well as Yarnell fire realities plus have read The Fire Line and My Lost Brothers in an effort to learn what I can about this devastating fire. I thought that the release of emails between forestry officials provided important information that revealed some of the coverup related to the fire.
————————————————————————————————–
WTKTT,
Posted above: “The families present seemed comforted and pleased knowing that [Tom French said it would have been nearly impossible, even on a calm day, to safely and physically accomplish a drop on top of the GMHS]”
“Not ALL the ‘family members’ ( who were there along with YOU and the others ).”
Thanks for posting the family and friends and loved ones musings.
You will notice that NOBODY says anything about French’s comments about the near impossibility of accomplishing the task.
I was there and that is what I and others present, heard after French’s comments.
The families present seemed comforted and pleased knowing that Tom French said it would have been nearly impossible, even on a calm day, to safely and physically accomplish a drop on top of the GMHS.
Instead, the family, friends,and loved ones ply the usual “blame management and everyone else that was NOT there on the fireline’ spew rather than accept that the GMHS, and NOBODY ELSE, made the fatal decision to leave the good black.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 4, 2016 at 3:37 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The families present seemed comforted and pleased knowing
>> that Tom French said it would have been nearly impossible,
>> even on a calm day, to safely and physically accomplish a
>> drop on top of the GMHS.
Of course they were ‘comforted and pleased’.
That is exactly what they WANTED to believe… and Thomas French knew it.
I guess the ‘families’ ( and Tom French ) have never seen the following video.
It was shot by Twisp resident Ben Wilmot, at the exact time the 3 firefighters trapped up on Woods Canyon road were in their shelters and trying to survive.
It shows the ’emergency VLAT drop’ that WAS performed, trying to save their lives.
Ben Wilmot was several hundred yards southeast of Woods Canyon Road and setting up sprinklers to try and protect a nearby residence when he looked WEST and saw this VLAT coming in HOT for this ’emergency drop’… and he started filming.
https://www.facebook.com/ben.wilmot.376/videos/o.944925525573021/1624578841157011/?type=2&theater
1.. There was NO ‘lead plane’. This VLAT pilot was doing this ‘on his own’
2. There had been no ‘practice run’. This was the first time the VLAT had arrived over the area. Pilot was made aware of the approximate location of the sheltered men and he came in HOT and BLIND and perfomed the emergency drop.
3. He flew directly INTO the smoke column in order to hit the approximate location of the sheltered firefighters.
4. The DC10 was no more than 2 plane lengths above Woods Canyon Road when he dropped the retardant.
5. The DC10 remains ‘hidden’ inside the smoke column for several long seconds after the drop… and you can HEAR the pilot jacking the throttles right after the drop in order to CLEAR the ‘ridge’ that was just EAST of Woods Canyon Road.
6. The DC10 emerges from the smoke ‘nose up’ and making sure he clears that mountain, just due north of Mr. Ben Wilmot’s location.
Only happens in the movies?
Yea… right. Watch the video.
It is all about LOCATION.
If pilot ‘Kevin’ of the VLAT that was over Yarnell at 4:39 had been given a similar ‘known location’ on June 30, 2013… he actually MIGHT have attempted the same thing we see in this video.
Keyword: MIGHT
So the circumstances still go back to those 2 agonizing minutes starting at 4:39:13 PM when John Burfiend was CHOOSING to ignore those desperate radio calls from Granite Mountain.
What was actually LOST because of Burfiend ‘ignoring’ them until finally ORDERED to answer those radio calls by OPS1 Todd Abel was the CHANCE to get an exact ‘fix’ on their location.
If they HAD that ‘exact fix’…. sometime around 4:40 PM… there actually MIGHT have been SOME attempt to do SOMETHING ( perhaps even similar to what this Twisp video shows ).
It also remains true that if Thomas French hadn’t been fucking around with his little now-no-lionger-a-priority retardant project up there on the NORTH side for all that time following when he was TOLD to shift his attention to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side… and he HAD gotten down to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area BEFORE the smoke column had begin to ‘lay down’… there STILL remainis the possibility that he would have SEEN the the Granite Mountain Hotshots ‘down there’ while making practice runs… or might have at least become AWARE of what they were attempting.
That still raises at least two possibilities….
1. Whether ‘requested’ to or not… they might have been able to see the developing ‘predicament’ with Granite Mountain and been able to WARN them in time for them to have done something other than what they ended up doing ( DYING ).
2. If they had any kind of real ‘visual’ on their location BEFORE the smoke column laid down… things MIGHT ( Keyword: MIGHT ) have been different with regards to attempting some kind of emergency drop.
But,of course, NONE of this ‘information’ would have ‘comforted’ the ‘families’ at all.
WTKTT,
For starters, your FB video clip posts: “Sorry, this content isn’t available right now”
Notwithstanding that, the whole being saved by VLAT’s, retardant drops, and/or helicopter water drops is pure DRAMA and NOT realistic. I will take your word for it about the Twisp Fire tanker pilot, good for him. You read or hear about them suggesting that and/or attempting that, but this is the first I have heard of it actually being done.
If a WFF has to rely on air support to save their lives, they have REALLY, TOTALLY, UNEQUIVOCALLY F**KED UP!
One more time, I was there on site at the YH Fire Fatality site listening to Tom French and the Families. SEVERAL of the family, friends, and loved ones of the GMHS stated (paraphrasing) that they were ‘COMFORTED’ knowing that a Tanker Drop under the weather conditions on June 30, 2013 and/or even on a near-perfect, clam weather day was IMPOSSIBLE. IMPOSSIBLE!
And one more time, NOWHERE in the family, friends, and loved one posts you provided does any one of them talk about the IMPOSSIBILITY of pulling off such a retardant drop on the GMHS. NOWHERE!
Save the drama for the movies and novels. Maybe they will have that in the upcoming movie.
It looks like we are going to have to ‘agree to disagree.’
I suppose it is likely that what was not just attempted… but actually ACHIEVED at the Twisp fire may have actually been in some way related to Yarnell and the ‘stories’ about what did or didn’t happen THAT day.
The official reports are still so piss-poor it is hard to tell what the real ‘story’ is/was with regards to this Twisp emergency retardant drop… but I suppose it’s possible the stories from Yarnell were being recalled and someone ( only that VLAT pilot alone? ) decided that as long as there was even the SLIGHTEST chance it MIGHT make a difference… it was worth the effort.
But regarding either Thomas French’s or anyone else’s use of the word IMPOSSIBLE… I am only reminded of that famous quote from “The Princess Bride”…
” You keep using that word… but I’m not sure you know what it means”.
WTKTT,
I know what the word ‘impossible’ means. I also know what the word DRAMA entails and this is all about the DRAMA.
I am NOT a pilot, however, I have seen countless retardant drops in my career and I DO know that what French and any airtanker pilot would have had to do to accomplish a retardant drop on or even near the GMHS in ‘the bowl,’ would have been IMPOSSIBLE without possibly crashing the aircraft and killing the pilot(s).
And I know that a pilot that thinks “as long as there was even the SLIGHTEST chance it MIGHT make a difference” I will make the ATTEMPT, scares the shit out of me.
Those HAZARDOUS ATTITUDES are listed in the 2014 IRPG on page xi, e.g.
“INVULNERABLE – That can’t happen to me
IMPULSIVE – Do something even if it’s wrong
MACHO/MACHA ( notice the Equal Opportunity here by me adding Macha) – Trying to impress or prove something
GROUPTHINK – Afraid to speak up or disagree
I have witnessed a few airtanker crashes and fatalities and except for the Big Elk Fire in CO in 2002 (link below) where the wings ripped off, ALL the others were covered with the above IRPG Hazardous Attitudes.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2012/07/18/10-years-ago-today-the-second-air-tanker-crash-of-2002/
Save it for the movies and the fictional novels and the media.
What remains interesting throughout all of these musings about what may or may not have been ‘possible’ circa 4:39 PM on June 30, 2016 in Yarnell, Arizona… is that the pilot ( Kevin ) of the VLAT was ( apparently ) NEVER interviewed by ANYONE.
All we have is his actual voice captured in the Air-to-Air channel saying he was going to stay right on French’s tail… ready to do anything that might be required.
But they never reached that ultimate ‘decision point’ about whether to even attempt a ‘drop’… because they had no fucking idea where to even try it… because Burfiend had ignored those poor men for so long that the opportunity to ascertain their exact location had been lost.
It would still be interesting to hear Kevin’s side of this story someday.
“… ready to do anything that might be required.”
CLEARLY a HAZARDOUS ATTITUDE putting him AND his Air Crew in unnecessary danger!
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
August 5, 2016 at 11:49 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> “… ready to do anything that might be required.”
>>
>> CLEARLY a HAZARDOUS ATTITUDE
>> putting him AND his Air Crew in
>> unnecessary danger!
That’s why it has ALWAYS been important to get this VLAT pilot’s ( Kevin’s ) side of “the story”.
What did he really mean by what he was RECORDED saying in that Air-To-Air channel recording?
Was he really ready to do ‘anything’ to try and save those men?
If John Burfiend had NOT ‘ignored’ those poor men for 2 minutes and threw away the opportunity to ascertain their EXACT location… and either he or Thomas French had then decided that… knowing the exact location… there *might* have been a chance a drop could do some good…
…would Kevin really have attempted it?
We still don’t know the answer there.
OK STOP
2 minuets even if they had a location and could do the drop was not enough to set a pattern and fly down that canyon you could hit the ridge wit a wing . You are talking air craft at altitude circling setting up a run from west to east where they can not even know if they are directly over the canyon in all the Smoke It is impossible Period
With winds already at 20mph and the smoke covering the entire Canyon that GM was in there was no possible way to drop without endangering the Tanker.
The two fire were totally different apples and Oranges.
WTKTT,
You posted: “threw away the opportunity to ascertain their EXACT location… and either he or Thomas French had then decided that… knowing the exact location… there *might* have been a chance a drop could do some good…”
They did NOT throw away “the opportunity to ascertain their EXACT location…”
The GM HS knew exactly were they were. And if they were counting on AA having a Tanker drop on them to ‘save’ them, then they were even more unsafe than any of us ever knew and/or imagined.
“…would [VLAT Pilot] Kevin really have attempted it? … We still don’t know the answer there.”
That is correct and only he knows unless he told others his intentions.
I sure hope he was NOT planning that mission.
WTKTT,
You posted: “… [AA] knowing the exact location… there *might* have been a chance a drop could do some good…”
DRAMA, pure DRAMA ans wishful thinking here.
There was NO way based on time, terrain, fierce winds, visibility, and any number of other factors.
NO F**KING WAY!
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
post on August 5, 2016 at 10:01 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The GM HS knew exactly were they
>> were.
Yes… they did.
And they SHOULD have been including that information in their MAYDAY calls and NOT have been waiting those 2 long minutes just for John Burfiend to give them ‘permission to speak’.
That, itself, became the essence of some of the ‘demands’ of the family members in their lawsuits. It was perfectly obvious to them ( and anyone listening to those recordings ) that some kind of ‘standardized’ MAYDAY protocol should have been being used in those moments.
Something that includes a REQUIREMENT to immediately ‘announce’ your location… WITHOUT waiting for ‘permission’ to give it… just in case OTHERS might be listening and then that ‘location’ becomes generally known.
The very LAST thing we hear in those radio captures… right after OPS1 Todd Abel had to ORDER John Burfiend to stop ignoring those radio calls… was Burfiend himself only THEN trying to ‘ascertain their location’.
All he could think to ask ( first ) was…
“So… you’re on the south side of the fire, then?”.
And all Marsh had time left to say ( apparently ) was one word… “Affirm”.
There was then no longer any TIME LEFT to CLARIFY that.
John Burfiend had WASTED those precious 2 minutes where an exact location COULD have been ascertained via more question/answer calls by simply ‘ignoring’ the radio calls for all that time.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
August 5, 2016 at 10:04 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> There was NO way based on time,
>> terrain, fierce winds, visibility, and
>> any number of other factors.
>>
>> NO F**KING WAY!
I actually ‘used’ to be ‘of that opinion’ ( Keyword: opinion ) myself…
…but then came the Twisp fire… and three more WFFs dead for no good reason.
The CONDITIONS and the CIRCUMSTANCES were, in fact, SIMILAR.
1. WFFs trapped in shelters in the middle of a large smoke column.
2. Location not EXACTLY known… but since THESE men DID have the good sense to ‘report their location’ as best they could during THEIR ‘distress’ calls… everyone had ( at least ) a pretty GOOD idea where they were.
3. This ‘pretty good idea’ was relayed to an inbound VLAT.
4. The smoke column WAS ( I would have thought ) too large for anyone in a ‘Jet engine’ based aircraft to even consider flying directly into it.
5. There WAS ‘terrain’ on the opposite ( BLIND ) side of the smoke column that anyone flying into would have to ‘pull up’ to avoid immediately after ‘dropping’, and BEFORE emerging from the smoke cloud.
But it HAPPENED.
The pilot of THAT particular VLAT decided ( even with all the negatives ) that it was ‘worth a shot’… and he DID it.
Now… whether or not what happened there at Twisp was ‘insanity’ and the pilot should have been severely reprimanded is not for me to say.
Totally above my pay grade.
But it HAPPENED.
( And it wasn’t ‘a movie’. It was REAL ).
I do not know how much clearer to say it forget every thing else the time from notification to shelters did not give the Air Tanker the time needed to set up the run. even with the extra 2 Min. They were in a hold pattern which means they had to move to the south side of the fire set up and make the run by the time they did that it was all over for the crew.
You do not spin a heavy Air Tanker on a Dime and arrive in seconds to a different location.
I am not talking about all the other problems with this scenario just the time needed to get in position.
The Twisp fire was different the Tanker was incoming knew the location and zeroed in and dropped. It was still pure luck they hit any thing and there was less wind.
He could have lost his license for what he did
It was against regulations and very dangerous
HE GOT LUCKY
I have never seen that done or requested by AA
.
WTKTT,
You posted: “So… you’re on the south side of the fire, then?”.
“And all Marsh had time left to say ( apparently ) was one word… “Affirm”.’
Marsh’s response to AA is right in line with what I posted elsewhere.
(1) They did not realize the severity of their situation because they had been in similar situations before on the ‘Nevada Fire’ (Holloway Fire in 2012) AND GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT TWICE THERE.
“There was then no longer any TIME LEFT to CLARIFY that.”
The time did NOT matter because it was an IMPOSSIBLE drop.
“John Burfiend had WASTED those precious 2 minutes where an exact location COULD have been ascertained via more question/answer calls by simply ‘ignoring’ the radio calls for all that time.”
Burfiend had NOT “WASTED those precious 2 minutes where an exact location COULD have been ascertained …” because the time did NOT matter because it was an IMPOSSIBLE drop.
Get over it.
WTKTT,
Marsh’s general reply that the GMHS was “on the south side of the fire” goes right along with his pattern of being “intentionally vague” and disigenuous and not want the Overhead to know where they were, their intentions, etc.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Only happens in the movies? … It is all about LOCATION.”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343911
Check out this image of the YH Fire ‘BOWL.’
http://wildfiretoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Wind-at-the-deployment-site.jpg
There is NO F**KING WAY an airtanker, especially a VLAT, could have safely made a retardant drop coming through the saddle in the top center of the photo as pointed out by Tom French at the Fatality Site on the Family Staff Ride day.
You posted: “IF (EMPHASIS ADDED) pilot ‘Kevin’ of the VLAT that was over Yarnell at 4:39 had been given a similar ‘known location’ on June 30, 2013… he actually MIGHT have attempted the same thing we see in this video. … Keyword: MIGHT”
You are dreaming, it is merely wishful thinking, i.e. DRAMA. Furthermore, IF he would have attempted that drop, then he and his Air Crew would likely also have been fatalities based on the terrain features and the intense winds and turbulence.
You posted: “So the circumstances still go back to those 2 agonizing minutes starting at 4:39:13 PM when John Burfiend was CHOOSING to ignore those desperate radio calls from Granite Mountain. … What was actually LOST because of Burfiend ‘ignoring’ them until finally ORDERED to answer those radio calls by OPS1 Todd Abel was the CHANCE to get an exact ‘fix’ on their location.”
What they could have accomplished in those “2 agonizing minutes” (read DRAMA) was what? Locate them? So what! It takes TIME. LOTS OF TIME to contact aircraft and brief them and realign them to what you want. “2 agonizing minutes” is clearly NOT enough time to accomplish half of that.
You posted: “IF (EMPHASIS ADDED) they HAD that ‘EXACT FIX’ (EMPHASIS ADDED)…. sometime around 4:40 PM… there actually MIGHT have been SOME attempt to do SOMETHING ( perhaps even similar to what this Twisp video shows ).”
Once again, so what about the “EXACT FIX,” SO WHAT!
You posted: “… if Thomas French hadn’t been fucking around with his little now-no-lionger-a-priority retardant project up there on the NORTH side for all that time …” That is YOUR OPINION. How do you know he was “fucking around?”
You posted: “… and he HAD gotten down to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area BEFORE the smoke column had begin to ‘lay down’… there STILL remainis the possibility that he would have SEEN the the Granite Mountain Hotshots ‘down there’ while making practice runs… or might have at least become AWARE of what they were attempting.”
Okay, so what? The GMHS were wholly committed to their fatal folly and it is my professional opinion that nothing was going to change their minds at that point. They were in ‘Plan Continuation’ mode, ignoring all the cues warning them this was a BAD idea.
You posted: regarding the two possibilities “1. Whether ‘requested’ to or not… they MIGHT (EMPHASIS ADDED) might have been able to see the developing ‘predicament’ with Granite Mountain and been able to WARN them in time for them to have done something other than what they ended up doing ( DYING ).
See above. The GMHS were committed to their fatal folly and it is my professional opinion that nothing was going to change their minds at that point. They were in ‘Plan Continuation’ mode, ignoring all the cues warning them this was a BAD idea.
“2. If they had any kind of real ‘visual’ on their location BEFORE the smoke column laid down… things MIGHT ( Keyword: MIGHT ) have been different with regards to attempting some kind of emergency drop.”
See above on the DRAMATIC emergency drop.
You conclude with: “But, of course, NONE of this ‘information’ would have ‘comforted’ the ‘families’ at all.”
And why not? They believe a lot and/or most of the dramatic and meaningless blather on it being everyone else’s fault and the GMHS were just innocent victims of the Bid, Bad Fire and the Big, Bad IMT decisions.
As an outsider with no reining inf forestry issues reading information about who bears responsibility for the GraniteMountain fatalities I can’t understand why air attack particularly Burfiend and French
Are not being held responsible for the deaths of the 19?
Typo above-“as an outsider with no reining forestry” —should be as an outsider with no experience with forestry issues “
If French had followed Roy Collins” initial directions/orders there would have been 40 minutes to deal with this critical situation rather than 2 !
That’s correct.
There is every chance in the world that, had the ‘Air Support’ actually switched its attention to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire when instructed to do so by Air Attack Rory Collins, as early as 3:50 PM that day… that many things might have been ‘different’.
Even though Granite Mountain was not CLEARLY reporting their ‘risky’ move and there exact ‘whereabouts’… there might have been time for ‘Air Support’ to have SEEN them ( and what they were attempting to do ) from the Air… recognized the developing dangerous situation ( even if GM was not perceiving it )… and do an ‘intervention’.
All conjecture… but still ‘possible’.
Reading through this information I am wondering —how many of
these accidents are related to old tankers verses dangerous
retardant drops by the pilots?
It appears that the information provided to the families was prioritized to provide “comfort”. They were not given the facts Because that would not “comfort” thereby protecting the responsible parties from liability.
Is this correct?
I’m with you, Wants to Know the Truth.
The opportunity to try to save 19 lives is immeasurable.
I realize that it is not my life on the line here but 19 men with families seems like it’s a cause worthy of confronting the dangers for a chance to save 19 souls.
Diane…
See this new post up above where the pilot of that DC10 VLAT number 910 that was flying there over the deployment area has finally been identified as ‘Kevin Hopf’…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-344001
In other interview notes and in the Air-To-Air radio channels captures…. both the pilot of VLAT 910 ( Kevin Hopf ) and the pilot of Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ ( 5KA ) were recorded as testifying they ‘thought’ they heard radio communications originating from ‘Division Alpha’ ( Eric Marsh ) as late as 4:50 PM that afternoon.
That is 11 ( ELEVEN ) full minutes after Jesse Steed’s first ’emergency’ radio call appeared on the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel.
But neither the pilot of that VLAT 910 ( Kevin Hopf ) or the pilot of Helicopter 5KA were ( as far as is known ), EVER ‘interviewed’ by any investigators.
The following Air-To-Air radio channel recording transcript is the moment when pilot Thomas French in aircraft ‘Bravo 33’ apparently FIRST became aware there was even a ‘deployment’ situation developing on the ground below.
It comes a full 2 ( TWO ) minutes after Jesse Steed’s first emergency radio call had appeared on the Air-To-Ground channel.
The man sitting next to pilot Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ was John Burfiend… and HE was the one who was tasked with monitoring the Air-To-Ground radio channel.
Pilot Thomas French was NOT LISTENING to THAT A2G channel.
He was solely monitoring, and communicating on, the ‘Air-To-Air’ radio channel.
So the following Air-To-Air radio channel captures seems to indicated that Thomas French himself was not even advised of the developing situation by the man sitting right next to him in the plane ( John Burfiend )… until that moment 2 minutes into the situation when OPS1 Todd Abel finally had to ORDER John Burfiend to stop ‘ignoring’ those distress calls from those poor men down there on the floor of that canyon…
——————————————————————-
+10:19 ( 1641.09 / 4:41.09 PM )
(B33 – French): Hey… uh… Kevin… uh… we got… situation’s changed and we got some folks in trouble and I don’t know where they’re at yet… uh… just… uh… standby.
+10:31 ( 1641.21 / 4:41.21 PM )
(B33 – French): Looks like we may have a deployment in progress so… uh… dial me up a level six for now and I don’t know what the… ah… drop sequence is gonna be yet.
+10:39 ( 1641.29 / 4:41.29 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): I’m just gonna tag in behind ya and follow ya, then.
————————————————————-
Notice above that the MOMENT pilot Thomas French finally WAS advised by John Burfiend of what was ‘happening’… his IMMEDIATE instinct was to inform pilot ‘Kevin’ in the VLAT and to tell him to adjust his retardant coverage level and prepare for an ’emergency drop’.
He told ‘Kevin’ to ‘prepare’ for a ‘drop’… but that he didn’t know what the ‘drop sequence’ would be yet.
And pilot Kevin Hopf in the VLAT also did not hesitate and simply ‘acknowledged’ that directive and assured Thomas French he was going to just ‘tag along and follow’ for whatever had to happen next.
That ’emergency drop’ never happened.
The opportunity to ascertain their EXACT location had been lost because John Burfiend ignored them for those full 2 minutes… and so there wasn’t even an opportunity to DECIDE if there was any safe way to attempt an emergency drop because they didn’t know where to even try it.
But it still does sound like ( from the Air-To-Air radio channel captures ) that pilots Thomas French and Kevin Hopf were at least ‘preparing’ to make an attempt at an ’emergency drop’, despite the conditions they could already see below them.
Correction for above…
I said…
“In other interview notes and in the Air-To-Air radio channels captures…. both the pilot of VLAT 910 ( Kevin Hopf ) and the pilot of Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ ( 5KA ) were recorded as testifying they ‘thought’ they heard radio communications originating from ‘Division Alpha’ ( Eric Marsh ) as late as 4:50 PM that afternoon.”
Those pilots themselves were ( as far as we know ) never interviewed by investigators.
Their ‘testimony’ about believing they were hearing radio transmissions from Eric Marsh as late as 4:50 PM come from other people who WERE interviewed ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) reporting that is what THEY heard them say.
And the pilot of Helicopter 5KA was actually RECORDED on the ‘Air-to-Air’ channel reporting that he thought he had just heard ‘Division Alpha’ attempting to make a radio call almost 10 minutes after Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY call…
————————————————-
From PANEBAKER VIDEO 20130630_1716_EP
which starts 1645.19 ( 4:45.19 PM )
+03:07 ( 1648.26 / 4:48.26 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA – to Thomas French in B33): I think Division Alpha was ( just ) callin’ ya on Air-To Ground.
——————————————-
And here are Thomas French and John Burfiend testifying to the SAIT that at some point AFTER that ‘final’ radio transmission from Eric Marsh captured in the ‘Helmet Camera’ video… and some point AFTER all of the “can you hear the aircraft?” queries that followed that… the pilot of VLAT 910 ( Kevin Hopf ) supposedly thought he heard a transmission coming from the deployment site area…
From the SAIT Interview with
Thomas French and John Burfiend…
———————————————————-
At first Helicopter 5KA ( Five Kilo Alpha ) wanted to get the bucket but John said “no, we need to find these guys”. 5KA couldn’t see the rigs, there was too much smoke. “Copy, you are getting in your shelter, listen for the aircraft, we don’t know where you are”. After 1 minute he said again “we are going into shelters”. At one point 910 thought her heard him call.
————————————————
If I understand this information correctly someone (Eric Marsh) was making a radio call 10 MINUTES after Jesse Steeds first mayday call !!
How long was that after Granite Mountain had deployed?
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
August 10, 2016 at 1:21 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> If I understand this information correctly
>> someone (Eric Marsh) was making a radio
>> call 10 MINUTES after Jesse Steeds first
>> mayday call !!
Yes… you are “understaning the information correctly”.
The ‘someone’ who supposedly heard this radio call was the pilot of Helicopter 5KA ( Five Kilo Alpha ).
The ‘someone’ that he ( specifically ) said was making the call was ‘Division Alpha’ ( Eric Marsh ).
And he thought he heard this radio call from the deployment site at exactly 4:48:26 PM.
>> Diane Lomas also asked…
>>
>> How long was that after Granite Mountain
>> had deployed?
The ‘accepted’ time when all of the Granite Mountain Hotshots finally ‘went into their shelters’ is right around 4:42:30 PM.
That means the pilot of Helicopter 5KA thought he heard ‘Division Alpha’ ( Eric Marsh ) still trying to communicate from the deployment site even about 6 minutes AFTER that
One of the last things Eric Marsh had ( clearly ) said was that he was going to “give you ( Air Attack ) a call when we are under the shelters”… so it is still highly likely that Eric Marsh was trying to fufill that promise for an unknown amount of time after he said that..
See a longer reply above where you asked the same question…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-344375
I don’t understand why it is being said that “we don’t know where
you are” when there have been many statements on here that
others knew exactly where they were.
Diane,
I’m not sure exactly what you mean here. Lots of people knew generally where GM was supposed to be, in the black. It was clear to BR that they were moving, but GM was vague about where they were and where they were going.
At the moment they needed help, the people who needed to know where they were was air attack, and the person who might have surmised their position and tell AA, Todd Abel, didn’t have enough information to direct the drop. He also didn’t intervene and order Burfiend to pay attention until 2 minutes had passed. Abel was probably busy with lots of other duties at that time.
Other people (e.g., the ones Joy mentioned) may have been in on the moves GM was making, but they were not in communication with Todd Abel or AA.
There was a lot going on when the distress call came in, including evacuations, clearing equipment from danger, making alternative plans to keep up with rapidly developing conditions. The overhead were behind the curve from the beginning of the day, and they couldn’t even keep up with what they should have been doing. Saving GM was not on their duty list, and GM didn’t provide the information they needed to get help right away.
As many have said, AA cannot always turn on a dime. It was up to GM to do all they could to be safe, but they moved into an extremely dangerous place, and then they waited too long to admit they needed help, but they never clearly stated where they were.
In their defense, they never got a map, and their position had no name. There have long been proposals to give all crews GPS units, and instructions to provide accurate coordinates when they ask for help. Currently, there is no standard Mayday format for WLFFs, and that should change, but too late for GM.
Diane,
Have you looked at the videos that contain the distress call? Things were going to sh*t at that point, and communications were a mess.
NOTE: This conversation is being brought up from down below in a thread
that was running out of room…
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 3, 2016 at 7:13 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> One of the biggest conundrums in the YH Fire debacle is to understand
>> WHY they did what they did, WHY did it make sense to them at the time.
>>
>> Human Factors researcher Sydney Dekker said “Underneath every simple,
>> obvious story about ‘human error,’ there is a deeper, more complex story
>> about the organization.
>>
>> And I infer this to primarily mean the GMHS organization and secondarily
>> to mean the PFD.
>>
>> “Doing so was not a sign of malice, but a way to get the work done given
>> all its constraints, pressures, and expectations.”
>>
>> “People do what makes sense to them at the times – given their goals,
>> attentional focus, and knowledge–otherwise they wouldn’t be doing it.”
>>
>> “If it made sense for [the GMHS] to do what they did, then it may make
>> sense for others as well.”
>>
>> Human “errors are symptoms of trouble deeper inside a system.”
>>
>> It makes complete sense to me what Marsh did based on his longstanding
>> infernal habit of making Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes and normalizing
>> deviance.
>>
>> It’s the OTHER GMHS, Norris and Warneke and others, that makes NO sense to me.
>>
>> The anguish, mental battles and pressures, constraints, and WHY they could
>> not/would not break the chain of ‘Plan Continuation,’ – with Watch Out cues
>> slapping them in the face – must have been so intense that I cannot fathom it.
>>
>> Nonetheless, they we SO intense that Norris gave in to them and went against
>> everything he had been trained to do.
>>
>> I do NOT and will NOT subscribe to the f**ked up notion that Norris went
>> looking for f**king Easter eggs like some mindless moronic sheep.
I believe we have covered this ground before… but the recent discussion about Scott Norris, and the fact that his OWN ‘Payson Hotshot’ training and his OWN ‘expert knowledge of previous fatality burnovers and circumstances’ makes it worth discussing again.
Have you not considered the possibility that NONE of those men were doing ANYTHING simply because Eric Marsh was “going off” with his “Esse Quam Videri” bullshit once again?
It still remains highly likely that those men didn’t give one flying fuck about anything this obtuse and mysterious ‘Eric Marsh’ guy wanted… but they WERE doing it for the man they knew best and respected the most.
Jesse Steed.
Maybe they saw/heard that Eric Marsh was now ‘going off’ on Jesse Steed… and giving Jesse a ‘hard time’ ( perhaps even some kind of obnoxious ultimatum like “Do what I tell you or you are off the crew” )… and their ‘instincts’ were to simply “Help poor Jesse out of a pickle”.
I know… I know… that doesn’t minimize for one second Jesse Steed’s own responsibility to have some spinal fluid and stand up to ANYONE who was threatening the safety and well being of the crew that HE was in charge of.
I’m just saying that if it came down to ‘dissent’… maybe regardless of how ‘wonky’ the others themselves thought this crazy request coming from Marsh might have been… their ‘gut’ reaction was that it was getting Jesse “into trouble”.
So whatever they might have done then might have been simply “for Jesse”.
It’s possible.
Followup…
You ( RTS ) have stated ( more than once, I believe ) that you, yourself, are SURE that there was ( your quote ) “A GREAT DEAL of animosity between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed”.
As in… even BEFORE Yarnell.
As long as this discussion is ‘back on the table’… is there ANYTHING ELSE you can tell us about WHY you seem so SURE of that?
go back and really look at all the evaluations/reviews which is public records and in that look at what is NOT showing in them…there is clues in that area…
one thing in all this is PAY ATTENTION to the stuff not shown and is not at the forefront…
also I am very sorry how underpaid this profession is when you put your life on the line…so sorry…so I wish you all were given the best of the best equipment on the line…
Joy said “how underpaid this profession is when you put your life on the line”…
I have heard this phrase of “putting your life on the line” fighting forest fires…
Sorry, but I have NEVER put my life on the line willingly to help suppress a forest fire… Yes, it is a dangerous job, BUT, if you are well trained, well equipped, observant to weather fuel, topography and fire, as well as make solid decisions based on the what the fire is telling you,,,,, it is not “laying your life on the line”…
I can not say that I would say the same phrase would apply to Police, Military or Structural Fire Fighters.
Police Officers KNOW that every time they strap on the duty belt that there is a GOOD chance that some whackjob is gonna start shooting.
Military Personnel know that they are in a WAR, and in wars, people shoot guns and bombs and TRY to kill you.
Structural Fire Fighters KNOW that there is a good chance that when the bell goes off in a station that they MAY have to risk their lives to don SCBA gear to do an internal search of a burning structure to ensure no one was inside. They know that burning buildings do collapse…
SO, in summary Joy, I do not feel that Wildland Fire Fighters have the same level of “putting their lives on the line”… They ALWAYS have the option of a Refusal with Options….
Does the grunt private in the Marines in Afghanistan, during a firefight, have the option of saying “Hey Captain, I don’t like being shot at, how about we come back tomorrow and try again?”
Does the Structure Fire Guy (and gals) have the ability to tell the captain, “I don’t feel like going into this burning building until we get more engines and hose lines in place”?
Does a police officer (lets say in Dallas Texas) have the option of saying “Hey Sarge, this guy is shooting at us with a high powered rifle and I don’t like that, so I am going to be going back to the office to do some paperwork”?
That is what “laying your life on the line is all about…
Wildland Fire Fighters should NEVER feel they have to do something that can make them “DEAD”…. They can let trees burn, wait for air support, back off and burn off, refuse to go into a one way road into a subdivision (Twisp) to do structure protection, AND should be able to tell supervisors, based on fire behaviour observations (fuel, weather , topography, values at risk, etc) a flat out NO……
When I look at the photos of what GMIHS was attempting to save (manzanita, chaparral, scrub oak, crap bush), they should never have even tried to relocate to BSR….. Wait, they were told BSR was “Bomb Proof”…. Did they lay their lives on the line to save people/animals/etc etc… NOPE… They thought they were friggin heroes cause they saved the “Mighty Juniper” on the other fire and maybe thought they were invincible…
I may have omitted other occupations that people are truly paid to put their lives on the line, if so, you can see where I am going……..
I support the phrase of “putting themselves in harms way”…. as WFF is a dangerous job, but is it any more dangerous than a long haul truck driver (traffic crash), Butcher (plays with sharp knives all day), or an airline pilot (those things fall out of the air sometimes)… PUTTING YOUR SELF IN HARMS way is another way of saying you have a dangerous job, be smart, be trained, make sound decisions and chances are you will retire from your career without being DEAD….
Rant over… Your opinion may vary….
rocksteady… THANK YOU for that.
Speaking for myself only… my own opinion does “NOT vary”.
It is exactly the same.
I passed a bunch of guys working on the side of a 4 lane highway yesterday working dangerously close to traffic whizzing by them at 55 miles per hour… wearing orange vests and just ‘inches’ inside a bunch of plastic cones that would do no more to stop a car that wasn’t paying attention than a flyswatter would do against an oncoming train.
Are THEY ‘automatically’ heroes just because that’s where they spend their workdays?
Nope.
Are they in “harm’s way” and need to at least do everything THEY can… and have the best ‘situational awareness’ possible and follow the ‘rules of their profession’ ( at every moment ) to MINIMIZE the chances of an ‘accident’?
Yep.
The list could go on and on…
Do ALL of these people who work those sorts of jobs deserve our common respect for working these kinds of jobs?
You betcha.
But it’s time to throttle back on the ‘hero’ crap and stop using it as a ‘recruiting tool’.
rocksteady,
I concur completely. Thanks for saying what needs to be said on this issue.
Another one I loathe is when the media typically prefaces their stories with this statement AFTER fatalities.
“THEY WILLING GAVE THEIR LIVES …”
As far as I know, NOBODY in the WFF realm believes in this nonsense.
With one likely known exception.
I allege that Marsh LIKELY did once he left his relative safety near the BSR to run into the green with the GMHS where they were ridiculously wasting precious seconds building a Deployment Zone, once he realized the fatal error of his demands that Steed bring the GMHS down from their Safety Zone in the black and into the flaming front.
CORRECTION FOR ABOVE SHOULD READ:
“THEY WILLINGLY GAVE THEIR LIVES …”
My opinion——They were not trying to save chaparral,juniper etc.—-they were trying to help in Yarnell with structures and especially lives of elderly people who hadnt been evacuated.
They were also probably trying to save their jobs and the Granite Mountain unit from being eliminated.
I believe that that was part of the pressure they were under.
Reply to diane lomas post on August 6, 2016 at 1:16 pm
>> diane lomas said…
>>
>> My opinion——They were not trying to save
>> chaparral,juniper etc.—-they were trying to
>> help in Yarnell with structures and especially
>> lives of elderly people who hadnt been evacuated.
It’s possible… but with regards to the ‘lives of elderly’ part… keep in mind that if there had been ANY need for ‘Type 1 Hotshots’… with no structural firefighting equipment and only hand tools… to participate in that… then the entire 20-man contingent of ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ was already right there in Yarnell already, and totally ‘available’ to help with that sort of thing.
It there had been ANY need for ‘Hotshots’ to be saving ‘elderly people’… Blue Ridge would have been the logical choice.
It never happened.
Once Blue Ridge evacuated from the Shrine area… the CREW was given no assignment whatsoever. They just sat there in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot while the fire ‘came in’ to both Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
There is some testimony that some Engine Captains and other crews WANTED to insert themselves into Glen Ilah to try and help people… but SPGS1 Gary Cordes told them to ‘stand down’ and would not LET them do any such thing ( because it was already dangerous ).
So ( apparently )… even if ‘Granite Mountain’ had ALREADY been ‘in town’ in this timeframe… they ( the full crew ) would not have been ALLOWED to go jumping into Glen Ilah to do anything at all.
>> diane lomas also said…
>>
>> They were also probably trying to save their jobs
>> and the Granite Mountain unit from being eliminated.
>>
>> I believe that that was part of the pressure they were under.
Here is just SOME of Darrell Willis’ own ( typed / written ) words to Eric Mash, ( in Eric’s ’employee evaluation’ ) on May 13, 2013… just 48 days before the Yarnell tragedy ( EMPHASIS is mine )…
———————————————————–
Eric… I would like to be involved UP FRONT on ALL planned
events that the crew is involved in to add my expertise to
ensure that the event goes off in an EXCELLENT manner.
I believe it is IMPERATIVE for YOU to maintain a positive
attitude in everything you do.
You have 20 people looking for leadership EVERY DAY.
The DEPARTMENT is looking at our Division EVERY DAY.
The City as a whole is EVALUATING our PERFORMANCE.
We need to lead ‘up front’ and realize the Division’s FUTURE
is in OUR HANDS.
——————————————————
And here is former Granite Mountain Hotshot Brandon Bunch ( who is now actually being paid to be an ‘actor’ and actually PLAY his deceased friend Garret Zuppiger in the ‘movie’ ) saying it ALWAYS seemed like Eric Marsh was passing the ‘pressure’ on to THEM and was ALWAYS forcing the Granite Mountain Hotshots to keep ‘PROVING’ ( something? )…
From Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
———————————————————-
Brandon Bunch had been with Granite Mountain since 2010, the crew’s second year as hotshots.
Eric Marsh remained an enigma to him.
Bunch never felt he had a good read on his superintendent, but then, few people who worked with him did. One former colleague called him “an onion with layers he doesn’t let most people see”.
The more seasons Bunch worked for Granite Mountain, the more he felt that under Marsh’s command, the hotshots were ALWAYS having to PROVE themselves.
—————————————-
“…under Marsh’s command, the hotshots were ALWAYS having to PROVE themselves.”
Scott Norris reported that he was uncomfortable with safety issues on the granite mountain crew . If he was hired for the 2013 fire season and marsh was out for most the 2013 season what does this tell us?
It tells me that the GMHS safety and performance attitudes of things like Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes and the Normalization of Deviance were pretty deeply embedded in that Crew and how they fought fire.
Here’s an article titled ‘Culture that Kills: We Always Did It This Way’ that deals primarily with municipal and structure dept. firefighters. The principles are the same no matter the profession.
http://digital.fireengineering.com/fireengineering/201608/MobilePagedReplica.action?pg=83#pg83
Forum poster ‘Diane Lomas’ asked a few ( good ) questions recently that never really got full answers… so here’s an attempt to answer them a little better…
NOTE: If I’m getting any of the following wrong, someone please correct me.
>> On July 29, 2016 at 10:57 am, Diane Lomas asked…
>>
>> Thomas French stated that this was his first time working in the Yarnell area.
>> How much could that have contributed to the 40
>> minute delay in his leaving the Peeple Valley to move to Yarnell?
If I read your question correctly… you are asking if his general ‘unfamiliarity’ with the entire Yarnell area ( since he’d never fought a fire there before ) might have contributed to that documented 40 minute ‘delay’?
I don’t think so.
Sunday, June 30, 2013 was pretty much the first time MOST ( if not all ) of those firefighters had ever ‘been there’ in that area. Yarnell hadn’t had a major wildfire in upwards of 40 years, if I recall correctly.
The RECORDING that we have of Thomas French saying “This is my first time here” was only specifically referring to something he told another Tanker pilot at the END of that ’40 minute delay’… when French finally DID turn his attention to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire… and French only meant this was his FIRST TIME being ‘down there’ on that side of the fire that day.
French said that ( to the pilot of SEAT Tanker 413 ) at exactly 4:27:48 PM, while all of the fire vehicles on the ground were still evacuating off the fire to the Ranch House Restaurant there in the Yarnell area.
SIDENOTE: 4:27 PM is also when Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble shot his video from the driver’s side of the Blue Ridge Crew Carrier he was sitting in and captured a radio conversation where someone in fire command seemed to be urging Eric Marsh and/or Granite Mountain to “Hurry to town”… and Eric Marsh is clearly heard saying “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”.
Here is that excerpt from that AFUE Air-Study radio capture of the Air-To-Air radio channel…
———————————————————————————————
( 1627:14 / 4:27:14 PM )
(Tanker 413): Bravo four.. I’m sorry… three three… tanker four one three is comin’ up by these antennas on the southeastern side over here.
( 1627:21 / 4:27:21 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay copy that… I don’t have ya… I’m up at… uh… six thousand poppin’ smoke and I need to look at some stuff… just… uh… hang tight… let me know if ya got me in sight.
( 1627:30 / 4:27:30 PM )
(Tanker 413): No joy yet… I’ll just circle out here by these antennas.
( 1627:37 / 4:27:37 PM )
(Tanker 413): Just picked you up… you’re behind me… yea.
( 1627:48 / 4:27:48 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… stay there. ( Garbled transmission ). We’re… uh… probly gonna be puttin’ somethin’ in in front of these structures here but… uh… this is my first time here let me go check it out.
( 1628.00 / 4:28:00 PM )
(Tanker 413): Sounds good.
———————————————————————————————
So at 4:27:48 PM we hear Pilot Thomas Frency ( in aircraft ‘Bravo 33’ ) telling the pilot of the newly arrived SEAT Tanker 413..
“…this is my FIRST TIME here ( on the Yarnell side of the fire )”
That is 37 minutes since Thomas French was TOLD to go to the Yarnell side of the fire by Air Attack Rory Collins… and it would then be yet another 5 ( FIVE ) minutes of just ‘evaluation flying’ there in Yarnell before Thomas French would even begin to start making any retardant drops there on the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire.
The reason for the 40 minute delay really had nothing to do with Thomas French’s ‘unfamiliarity’ with the area.
It was because HE, himself, had DECIDED to STAY up on the NORTH end after 3:50 PM and use all the available on-scene and arriving Air Resources just to ‘tidy up’ that little retardant line project he had been working on prior to 3:50 PM in the Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road areas.
Only when HE, himself, was ‘satisfied’ with that little now-no-longer-a-priority project did he decide to ‘fly down’ to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire… 40 minutes AFTER he said he was “Headed that way” in response to Air Attack Rory Collins directive to do so.
>> On July 31, 2016 at 8:21 am, Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> Your analysis seems to be right on in my option. The other factors that I would
>> add are promise of air attack to make the plan more possible as well as
>> commitment to helping the elderly population in Yarnell that were so
>> vulnerable in this situation.
I think it is worth pointing out that if there was ANY need for a ‘Hotshot’ crew ( with no structural firefighting gear and only hand tools ) to ‘assist with helping the elderly population’… the Blue Ridge Hotshots were ALWAYS right there in Yarnell and totally available to participate in that.
But there was NEVER any request from anyone in fire command for the Blue Ridge Hotshots to ‘assist’ with that in any way.
When the Blue Ridge Hotshots evacuated from the Shrine Road area down to the Ranch House Restaurant… all they did was ‘park’ there. The CREW was not given ANY kind of ‘assignment’ to assist with any ‘evacuations’… elderly or otherwise.
>> On July 29, 2016 at 1:26 pm, Diane Lomas asked…
>>
>> Where is this video? Who has access to it?
The video you are referring to was something that both Tex ( Sonny ) Gilligan and Joy A. Collura say they saw posted on YouTube not long after the tragedy. They say it showed a group of firefighters lighting a ‘manual burnout’ there on the ‘Shrine Road’, near an identifiable ‘rock wall’.
Following the tragedy… there were always ‘suspicions’ that someone ( either firefighters or citizens trying to protect their own property ) MIGHT have lit some kind of ‘manual burnout’ down there in the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area without having been aware that the Granite Mountain Hotshots were hiking ‘out there’ in that explosive fuel bed and trying to reach the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Even the official ‘investigations’ were well aware this was a ‘possibility’ as they conducted their investigations.
The VIDEO that Sonny and Joy say they saw then supposedly ‘disappeared’ from YouTube and has never ‘resurfaced’… but they still swear they DID see it.
There has never been any other ‘evidence’… videos or photos or otherwise… that would confirm that there were ever any ‘manual burnouts’ set there ahead of the fireline as it made its way into the Yarnell and Glen Ilah areas.
Even the ‘Air15’ Media Helicopter footage taken over Yarnell in the 3:50 PM to 4:45 PM timeframe shows no evidence of any ‘manual burnouts’ in progress out ahead of the main ‘natural’ fireline as it came into Yarnell and Glen Ilah, but the area WAS obscured by a lot of ‘smoke’ from the altitude and position they were filming at.
There WAS testimony from Tyson Esquibel, the ‘Task Force 2 Leader Trainee’ who was working the Yarnell area that they had THOUGHT about ‘burning out’ as they all evacuated from the Shrine Road Youth Camp area… but he also testified they decided NOT to do that and they just evacuated that area.
>> On July 29, 2016 at 10:42 am, Diane Lomas asked…
>>
>> If Willis was granite mountain’s supervisor wouldn’t he be putting pressure
>> on marsh to move his hotshot crew into Yarnell for structure protection–perhaps
>> even telling marsh that their jobs depended on them complying?
>>
>> On July 29, 2016 at 11:08 am, Robert the Second (RTS) replied…
>>
>> Dianne,
>> Not necessarily, at least the day prior and the day of the YH Fire
>> according to cell phone records.
>> Willis’ cell phone records indicated he called Marsh on June 29th
>> to notify him of the fire and the morning of June 30th to warn him
>> about structures and getting an anchor point if my memory
>> serves me correctly.
>> And then again ?? times once he heard of the burnover and deployment.
>> I’m sure WTKTT will have much more detail.
RTS is correct.
Darrell Willis swears that the ONLY ‘direct’ communication he had with Eric Marsh on the tragic day of Sunday, June 30, 2013, was that 6:00 AM cellphone call where Eric Marsh informed Willis they were headed to the Yarnell Hill Fire, where Willis had already been working since 11:00 PM the night before. That is the call where Darrell Willis TOLD Eric Marsh (quote) “We’ve got to get an ANCHOR on this thing”.
Eric Marsh’s cellphone was recovered from his shirt pocket by the Medical Examiners in Phoenix at the start of his autopsy at 1:14 PM on July 2, 2013… but Eric Marsh’s cellphone then ‘disappeared’ and was never officially entered into evidence with the YCSO Police detectives in charge of collecting evidence.
So there was never any opportunity for the investigators to examine Eric Marsh’s cellphone. It resurfaced later in some kind of ‘secret handoff’ between some member of the Prescott Fire Department and Amanda Marsh, and Ms. Marsh says she then just threw it in a trash can on the Prescott County Courthouse square where this ‘secret handoff’ was allegedly taking place.
Darrell Willis’ cellphone was a ‘company phone’… fully paid for by the City of Prescott… but the ‘arrangement’ with Marsh was that the City of Prescott was paying Marsh an ongoing ‘stipend’ for a phone that he had purchased/contracted for himself.
ADOSH requested the cellphone records of both Eric Marsh and Darrell Willis from the City of Prescott.
Darrell Willis’ cellphone records for the entire year of 2013 up to, and including June 30, 2013, were supplied to ADOSH almost immediately… but the City of Prescott told ADOSH they would have to contact Eric Marsh’s widow in order to obtain THOSE cellphone records.
NOTE: This was not actually a true statement. If the City of Prescott was paying Marsh a ‘stipend’ for the use of his phone then legal precedent says they had every right, as his employer, to request cellphone records directly from the Carrier, without needing Ms. Marsh’s permission.
There is no record as to whether ADOSH ever actually attempted to do that, or not.
So while we do not know who might have been ‘calling’ Eric Marsh, or who HE might have been ‘calling’ on June 30, 2013… because his cellphone mysteriously just ‘walked out’ of the Phoenix Medical Examiner’s office following his autopsy, and no investigators we know of ever ‘obtained’ Marsh’s cellphone records from the carrier…
…the only evidence that he ever spoke with Darrell Willis matches Willis’ own testimony. That 6:00 AM call is there in Willis’ cellphone records. He never ‘received’ a call again that day from Marsh’s number… and the only other evidence that Willis tried to call Marsh came at exactly 4:50 PM on Sunday afternoon.
Following the news of the deployment… Darrell Willis DID place a call to Eric Marsh’s cellphone at exactly 4:50 PM… but there was no answer… because Eric Marsh was already dead.
ALL of that being said… the personnel records themselves that are all part of the PUBLIC evidence record ALL indicate that there WAS an enormous amount of PRESSURE coming from Darrell Willis ( to Eric Marsh ) for the crew to continue PERFORMING at a high level, and to continue to generate revenue for the City of Prescott. Willis had already informed Marsh ( in writing ) not long before Yarnell, and in his employee evaluation report(s), that he suspected there was a ‘conspiracy’ ( of sorts ) taking place over at City Hall in Prescott to disband the Granite Mountain project altogether, and that there were now “eyes on them” and the future of the entire organization was (quote) “Now in our hands”.
Thank you for your informative answers. Were the families upset with Thomas French?
Reply to Diane lomas post on August 3, 2016 at 7:50 pm
>> Diane Lomas asked…
>>
>> Were the families upset with Thomas French?
As far as I know… the ‘families’ still have absolutely no idea that there even WAS this ‘directive’ from Air Attack Rory Collins, at 3:50 PM, telling the ‘Air Support’ to switch its focus to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire… nor do they have any idea that regardless of the fact that Thomas French then immediately said he was “Headed that way”… that he would then do no such thing for another 40 minutes.
Following the tragedy… the major ‘focus’ on the Air Support from just about all parties involved was all about whether or not they could have either attempted and/or achieved some kind of ’emergency retardant drop’ to try and help the men on the floor of the blind box canyon.
Even on the ‘Staff Ride’…where both Thomas French and John Burfiend seemed to be present ( even down at the deployment site )… the only ‘questions’ from family members still seem to have been all about this ‘possible retardant drop’ somewhere near the deployment site.
I still don’t think any of the family members know that there really always has been “much more to the story” than just whether or not they had a chance of doing anything AFTER 4:39 PM and the first botched MAYDAY call from Jesse Steed.
Things had been ‘wonky’ pretty much ALL DAY with the ‘Air Support’… but very little about that ever came out in any of the official ‘reports’.
Diane,
You posted: “Were the families upset with Thomas French?”
At the fatality site during the family YH Fire Staff Ride, French told those present that with the intense winds, the steep and deep canyon walls encompassing The Bowl, and the alignment from which he would have had to make his drops, any ‘rescue retardant drop’ would have been “IMPOSSIBLE.”
He said basically the same thing even if the conditions would have been near perfect based on the alignment and terrain features alone.
The families comforted and present seemed to be pleased knowing that.
Meant to say: ”The families present seemed to be comforted and pleased knowing that.
Thomas French did not cause the deaths of the 19 GMIHS. He had no idea where they were or what they were doing.
THEIR OWN LEADERSHIP KILLED THEM!!!
Yes, indeed.
But those with the – ‘they were ‘”victims” of the Big, Bad Fire and there was nothing anyone could have done to prevent anything’ – mentality, believe that Satellite Transponders and/or Airtankers and/or Heavy Helicopters would have and could have saved them are living in a Dream World.
All that happens in the movies and fictional novels, NOT in the real world. And the media just love that stuff …
I can say first hand from talking to some of the loved ones-
they are not upset at a person in particular but deeply at a loss for their loved one and wish some did not shut them off on the aftermath of this fire and do hope some speak to them if not public — then to them direct in private.
Eric Marsh on 6-30-13 we eyewitnessed him to be scouting like a rabbit—quickly up and down the terrain and a few weeks before on fighting the Doce fire; similiar terrain/vegetation and he did not look like a lost puppy…he looked confident in his movements.
And you mentioned Blue Ridge and helping elders and so far to this date—that crew did more for locals and never been recognized yet in proper way to this date for their efforts in helping some folks in town.
Since Duane S. was Eric Marsh’s neighbor and retired wildland chief I would of as an investigator interviewed him and reviewed his cell data too not just Willis and Mayor to see how he learned about it via phone (we know how because we spent a few times with him) and Fraijo and Hall and etc…I have a lengthy phone data people list—it has been MY beef since day one…
The 40 minute delay in reaching Yarnell as well as not responding to Granite Mountain’s desperate calls for help for about 2 minutes could be interpreted as deliberately ignoring/snubbing the hotshots?
Reply to Diane lomas post on August 3, 2016 at 8:11 pm
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> The 40 minute delay in reaching Yarnell as well as not responding
>> to Granite Mountain’s desperate calls for help for about 2 minutes
>> could be interpreted as deliberately ignoring/snubbing the hotshots?
I don’t think the ’40 minute delay’ with Thomas French just deciding to ‘tidy up’ his little now-not-even-a-priority retardant project up there on the NORTH end of the fire could ever be interpreted as ‘deliberately ignoring’ the ‘Hotshots’… per se…
…but as for those 2 minutes ( starting at 4:39:13 PM ) when Air Attack John Burfiend ( in the right-hand seat of aircraft ‘Bravo 33’ ) was refusing to respond to Granite Mountain’s desperate radio calls…
The answer there is… Yes.
There has been a lot of ‘debate’ regarding this… but once people actually truly LISTEN to the recording that exists there is little doubt that John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ was deliberately CHOOSING to NOT RESPOND to those desperate calls from “Granite Mountain” for ( as you correctly said ) about 2 FULL minutes.
He ( Burfiend ) was deliberately NOT answering those desperate radio calls that afternoon until he was finally ORDERED to do so… by OPS1 Todd Abel.
It sounds for all the world like just someone who didn’t like anyone ‘yelling’ at him over the radio… so he just decided he wouldn’t dignify that ‘bad radio behavior’ with any kind of response… and someone ( Todd Abel ) ended up having to ORDER this guy to ‘answer those calls’.
When the Arizona Forestry contracted SAIR report was published… it then included the following crock of shit…
———————————————————————————-
Due to poor reception, ASM2 can only understand fragments of these communications. The fire’s rapid advance toward Yarnell is generating a lot of radio traffic about structure protection so ASM2 assumes the broken and unclear transmission is one of the structure protection units calling to request a retardant drop. He does not suspect it’s Granite Mountain since they were safe when he talked to them earlier.
———————————————————————————-
All of that is ( and always has been ) complete HORSESHIT.
It even bears NO RESEMBLANCE to John Burfiend’s own ‘testimony’ to the SAIT investigators… which was later revealed when the SAIT was forced to release its “Yarnell Hill Investigation Interview Notes” document.
At NO TIME in his SAIT interview notes is John Burfiend recorded as testifying that he had any real ‘trouble’ actually HEARING any of those radio calls in that timeframe.
At NO TIME in his SAIT interview notes is John Burfiend recorded as testifying that he thought those calls were coming from some ‘structure protection unit’.
At NO TIME in his SAIT interview notes is John Burfiend recorded as testifying that he ever had ANY doubts the calls were, in fact, coming from “Granite Mountain”.
So where Mike Dudley and Jim Karels came up with that bullshit they published in their SAIR document is still anyone’s guess.
ADOSH was NEVER allowed to interview either Thomas French or John Burfiend from ‘Bravo 33’… or even ATS Trainee Clint Cross who was ALSO physically present in that ‘Bravo 33’ aircraft that day.
What was LOST during those 2 agonizing minutes when John Burfiend was refusing to even give Granite Mountain ‘permission’ to even ‘speak’ to him over the Air-To-Ground channel was, of course, the CHANCE to fully ascertain their exact location before they ‘ran out of time’.
That ‘lost opportunity’ then turned into the reality of it taking almost TWO FULL HOURS to find them there on the floor of the box canyon.
If you read the autopsy reports closely… it is actually highly unlikely that any of those men actually ‘survived’ the burnover itself… and might have been lying there injured afterwards… but if things had been just slightly different that day… that MIGHT have been the case for any number of them.
And those TWO HOURS it took to finally locate them would, in that case, probably have represented the difference between life and death for any of those men that *might* have survived the initial burnover… but still needed medical attention right away ( and certainly before TWO HOURS went by ) in order to survive.
During the ADOSH interview of Burfie d when the 40 minute delay in going to Yarnell as well as the 2 minute delay in radio response to Granite Mountain was discussed what was the response from ADOSH ?
Reply to Diane lomas post on August 4, 2016 at 8:02 am
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> During the ADOSH interview of Burfie d when the 40 minute
>> delay in going to Yarnell as well as the 2 minute delay in
>> radio response to Granite Mountain was discussed what
>> was the response from ADOSH ?
ADOSH was NEVER allowed to interview Thomas French, or John Burfiend, or ATS Trainee Clint Cross.
See a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343861
wwtktt said- Sunday, June 30, 2013 was pretty much the first time MOST ( if not all ) of those firefighters had ever ‘been there’ in that area.
————————————————————————-
MY REPLY: local long time bar owner in Yarnell- THE PLACE- Barbara Hamilton—over forty years—one of her family members was GMHS Travis Carter who grew up in the area and KNEW this area—Tenderfoot fire fled away to area he was raised—Walnut Grove area…Necktie Ranch.
Also even if hearsay we hiked people who said the same; Zack Ashoor knew some of the GMHS and he gave us alot of inside look to the men-
and to back it up there is public links to support what Barbara told the hikers:
http://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130702yarnell-fire-travis-carter-obit.html
so there was at least ONE who KNEW that very terrain-
oh and decades ago and I means DECADES ago I knew a lovely woman named Diane Lomas from Southern Arizona…she would be like 64-71 nowadays—she had this neat structured beauty about her…it would be small world if same lady…if so; HUGE hello…
Joy.
I don’t know if I am the person you are referring to but I have lived in southern Arizona from 1959-1968 under maiden name Diane Foster. Then my husband and I lived in California, Florida,N Minn and back to Arizona from 1972-present.
I wish I could correspond private to you—
it does pertain to Tucson—in the 50-80’s—
have you ever taught under-privileged how to speak our language?
I will describe you and details in private—I know the details I know are not for public display…sorry others but this has nothing to do with IM…just small world if you are the same lady…
snail mail or email-
PO BOX 42 Yarnell Arizona 85362…(OR) [email protected]
Sonny will tell you FIRST HAND…if I met you I can go back to before I was one years old…I have proven it in Sonny’s presence…it is beyond freaky.
I am one of the more inquisitive ones who can remember things beyond the norm…
I like your listening/communicative side…I think you can bring this site into a new level…to find solutions and insight in areas not yet discussed or developed…as you probably know lawyers/insurance folks even peak here time to time and that has also been a human factor in this as well and your introduction is warmly welcomed…hopefully to solve concerns in the field of firefighting for enhanced safety…I have a good feeling about you Diane…
Yes, Joy does have a gift of being able to remember people, even ones she has met for only a few minutes–She remembers their names and where they met even twenty years later–I have seen this.
My son had a similar ability–he could remember not only your name but if you gave him your phone number, he would remember that as well.
https://i1.wp.com/media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d0/b4/58/d0b458fdfe4efeda1a1d7c55de367658.jpg
🙂
Diane, always…
we sure have been patiently awaiting the missing elements to surface,,,
I have not always been kind in it…usually it means if my bible is dusty my life is rusty… 🙁 and I am not being mindful but usually out of frustration not out of spite…
if what we are doing here dishonors…I would like to know but I truly have faith that we come here to seek truth and clarity and purity and a lot of us who do come have faced/seen untimely deaths within our own lives and we seek answers…
I love the IM crew…there are folks who have come here as “pop-ins” and do not know all the work here and behind the scenes to try and honor the crew by finding out the final hours versus just believing a narrative…they have their perception rights but it does not mean it always equals reality of what this blog means…I have said it here long ago I use to race my bicycle on the Jersey Shore from NJ to PA to CONN to even NY…and in that journey I met lots of people and that 9/11 hit a lot of us riders HARD CORE and in that trauma cores us to peak here on IM too…Rocksteady said earlier about the job is not like putting your life on the line but I stand by my view that the way the big deals run this—yes the big deals are jeopardizing the man on the line in the wild land firefighting community…I have sat with the TOP folks to the grunts and I went in with depth and I stand by my comment even if a million came here and disagreed…the big deals have no problem spending the millions for this and that when they could take care of the crews better with more funding and higher pay rates…and I would say in harms way in the old school way of things but not how its done today…
I have a wicked headache and I was going to KEEP QUIET…..I have never been on hear to try and orchestrate or create and just share as I get it…Marti Reed is forever my hero in this and I will always be very grateful for her not only do I have a pristine memory but what I have been plat formed as “bad/evil” in a court room is just what it is since one of my health procedures (an unusual connection I have but do not embrace but do verbalize it to get it out- like tee it up and rid of it….) and if I am wrong Diane I am in tune with many of yours—-if I am wrong…then I am getting the wrong information but I AM getting it— I got this information for David K. when I hiked with him and it ended up being a deceased trying to reach his partner not even for him and I was spot on so that could be too for Diane…I am 44 years old, Diane and you had someone near or within five years up or down (more up than down seems like) of my age pass on trying to speak with me and trying to explain in a humorous way how they made it to their birthday and that they really did not think that was “it” (this could be environment and could further be looked into but the actual reason given for passing on she just feels it was just accepted) and that this person’s son is with them and that son is saying he passed on the day after his father’s bday as a sign to his father that mom and him are with him always. This is weird because I am going to write it as I am being shared to and you can take away from it like others have done me but I am not “weird” but sharing data as I get it and you can label me like others or it could be a real message…and I see a 60’s ranch brick home common to Tucson with a fireplace near a very long sliding door as this woman shares as if the anniversary is within the past week of her cross over but within a decade or decade and 1/2. This was the woman who led me to speak up because she wants you to know she is with you. Does Hershey Park mean anything to anyone you know or Allentown? This one is talking to me to talk to my mother about systematics at the post office??? I am seeing postal but than I am seeing my grandfather speak to a woman about planes and so I am seeing military mixed amongst the people- army, navy, marines, air force—-Korean war is what my grandfather is talking to the woman about—late 30’s—was your mother older than your father over a year but under two? I see her as the older figure than the father- like maybe he died as well around my age or little older…I was not awake for message and was asleep and I am reading off a sheet that I wrote in the dark scribbled…so I am trying to make sense because I have wrote down “blind” but it was not tied to a name or anything and as I recollect there was a woman who helped people with disabilities and in a sense you do too…I wrote down the name Joe who is not passed on but this lady was talking to me about him. I see a lot of green grass like back when I lived on the Jersey Shore; trees around…with farm type fixtures like when I use to ride my bike from Jersey to PA…what is strange is I have been to the museum I am seeing already- softball little league/boats—I have actually been there in the 80’s but its been redone it appears and again this woman is like giving me a tour…so I have been there…as I look around it is Williamsport PA…it seems there is someone this person is trying to reach but I am being popped in and out of people pulling me so it seems I could go on but Sonny wants to talk now about cancelling his heart surgery so I will stop there…I am at a loss of what to share for him but follow to an extent the lead of His hand in this and pray—sorry Diane if you take me as off but I am only going the extra step and expressing what I am seeing versus keeping it inside…kinda like a lot like the people that were on the fire that 6-30-13 as they probably are not wanting to be thought of “differently” if they decided to share…the only thing I have is the blessed Assurance of Above…and I am ok…just a messenger of some unusual connection.
Yes, indeed, Joy has a genius memory, something few people have although it is seen in people such as another of our own on IM-WTKTT. I do not have that gift, something few have. The other involves visions, an added gift Joy enjoys from her simple sincerity and naively inherent child like honesty.
There are those who for their own adult defensiveness to avoid the honest truth in the Yarnell Hill destruction of 17 innocent souls have challenged Joy in her quest to help reveal the truth about the deaths of the 19 GMHS. Joy’s record was spotless until challenged by Amanda where Joy was brought to court as if Joy is a public anathema to the truth If you look at Amanda’s public records it is certain she has had a number of challenges by people and it seems to be a pattern for her. Point a finger and see if three are not pointing back every time, maybe even the thumb in Amanda’s case.
But be it as it is, Amanda and certain others behind and with her are in my humble opinion trying to uphold Marsh, Steed and the cadre above them as heroes in this Yarnell incident that killed their men. It can not be done, I am sorry and feel sad for Marsh, Steed and whomever trained them and bossed them at Yarnell when the men were needlessly killed by ridiculously stupid actions in an attempt to protect structures with Pulaski’s
The only true action would be for these people like Donut and others associated with this mess to fess up to what they really know and have hidden so long. Donut perhaps has some degree of excuse since he was under the thumb of those above him and showed little ability at his job as a wild land firefighter. Since he was once a prisoner in some jail, you would have thought that he would have had some independence from authorities wanting to quash the truth. We best be well suspect of in a country that touts the most prisoners in the world–a population of over 20 million. Joy would have been another if Amanda had her choice, when I do believe liars and people covering up what actually happened that caused those 19 men to go into a death trap have more reason to be there than those (for example 99% of the IM heroes) seeking the truth. To hide the truth means more wild land fire fighter deaths.
The IM people know that the truth will save lives, change live, and save millions to the tax payer. Reputations are not that important when people have done wrong. Here without doubt, by all evidence shown on IM we know that Marsh, Steed and others stand to be tried for what they did. Of course you can not try dead men, but there are a few that need a good raking over the coals for the way they managed this fire.
To clarify are you saying that Amanda Marsh would have liked to have seen Joy imprisoned over issues related to the Yarnell fire?
I do not know what Sonny meant and I am still trying to figure him and that out—but Diane…there is zero concerns between Amanda and myself—there was a grieving/frustrating phase and all is fine…
Joy,
WAnted to touch base with you about a few important details in your message to me.
My mom worked for civil service for 19 years and after retiring voluteered to help at the blind association in Tucson.
My dad John died in a small plane crash when he was in his 40s. He was a capt in the Marine Corps.
She remarried Joe who died of cancer before her death. They lived in ranch home with long sliding glass doors near the fireplace.
My nephew Kyle Welshans died in his 40s-he was the navigator on a naval nuclear submarine-found hanging in his garage in san diego. Was declared a suicide but I never believed it-I think he was a whistleblower who was going to reveal something about the classified infor mation and may have been silenced. He died a day after his father’s birthday.
Before enlisting in the navy Kyle lived in Jersey Shore,Pennsylvania.
His mom,my sister died in her her 40s of cancer.
diane lomas says
August 6, 2016 at 2:44 pm
Joy,
WAnted to touch base with you about a few important details in your message to me.
My mom worked for civil service for 19 years and after retiring voluteered to help at the blind association in Tucson.SHE WAS THE ONE TALKING TO ME- VERY STRUCTURED WOMAN- I WISH SHE WAS HERE ON EARTH—GOSH TOO MANY OF THE GOLDEN ONES ARE GONE 🙁
My dad John died in a small plane crash when he was in his 40s. THAT IS WEIRD BECAUSE MY OWN GRANDFATHER WAS EXPLAINING SOMETHING TO YOUR MOM ABOUT YOUR DAD AS IF MY ENERGY (DREAM…WHATEVER YOU CALL IT) GAVE THOSE TWO TIME TO SHARE AND THEY LOOKED LIKE THEY WERE AT A VFW TALKING….He was a capt in the Marine Corps.MY GRANDPA WAS A PILOT AND THIS WHOLE TOPIC OF PILOTS ON I.M. HE WAS TALKING TO YOUR MOM AS IF SHE WAS A PILOT TOO AND THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING ON I.M. FOCUSING ON THIS AREA IS SPOT ON…LIKE “THAT’S MY GIRL” 🙂
She remarried Joe who died of cancer before her death. They lived in ranch home with long sliding glass doors near the fireplace.SHUT THE BACK DOOR…REALLY? MY MOUTH DROPPED…WHAT DO PIES HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?
My nephew Kyle Welshans died in his 40s-he was the navigator on a naval nuclear submarineMY HEART DROPPED- I HAVE NOT EVEN LOOKED AT MY JOURNAL…THAT IS HORRIBLE…I JUST LEARNED YESTERDAY MY COLLEGE GAL PAL DIED AND I AM HAVING A “ZONE” ON THAT; WE WERE INSEPARABLE. -found hanging in his garage in san diego. Was declared a suicide but I never believed it-SO THAT WAS WHY THE MESSAGE WAS “LOOK MORE INTO IT”…OKAY I THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT THE MOTHER AND TO LOOK INTO THE ENVIROMENT TO HER FAILING END BECAUSE SHE HUMOROUSLY SAID SHE MADE IT TO HER BDAY… IN THE DREAM AND SO THIS IS CREEPY A BIT BECAUSE IF THIS ENDS UP BEING THE KYLE I KNEW BACK EAST AND I ONLY KNOW OF YOU FROM TEEN YEARS FROM CHURCH FOLKS- AND HOW WEIRD AND BAD TIMING FOR ME TO GRASP IT ALL…UGH….I think he was a whistleblower who was going to reveal something about the classified infor mation and may have been silenced.I THINK I AM GOING TO GO BACK TO COLLEGE- RUTGERS HERE I GO…I THINK I NEED TO BECOME AN INVESTIGATOR ON GOVERNMENT CONCERNS…. He died a day after his father’s birthday.ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME…IT WAS SO CLEAR THEIR HUMOR AND THEIR WAY BUT I COULD SEE THEM LIKE IN A HAZY WAY…
Before enlisting in the navy Kyle lived in Jersey Shore,Pennsylvania.WHOAH—
His mom,my sister died in her her 40s of cancer.THIS HAS TO BE THE SAME KYLE I KNEW- WOW…I AM SORRY I AM NOT WRITING A WHOLE BUNCH BUT I HAVE TO GO GET SONNY…AND I JUST POPPED ON REAL QUICK BEFORE PUTTING HIS GUINEA/CHICKENS/DUCKS IN THEIR COOP FOR THE NIGHT…TALK SOON MORE…IT IS FOR REALS EVERYTHING I SAW AND JOTTED DOWN THEN- SO WACKED…
OH…..THEY ARE HAPPY JUST SO YOU KNOW…SO HAPPY…I ACTUALLY WISH THEY WOULD VISIT AGAIN…I ENJOYED MY TIME WITH THEM…STRANGE WORLD…SHAKING MY HEAD…
Diane
Your family are not the only ones.. Fred’s dad and John’s brother. List goes on.. Even one of Eric Marsh’s friends told me what is happening to me has happened to him… The only difference he keeps it inside and I tee it up and let it go….I enjoyed all the messages and it helped me never meeting Fred to have his dad share to me….
Thank you for your kind words Joy. I appreciate your encouragement in my postings as forestry is out of my field of training and I often wonder if I should be participating but after all that I have read I just had to.
I will send an email soon but for now to let you know I have taught underprivileged students in the Tucson Unified School District and not long before retiring I was teaching ESL (English as a Scond Language) to primary students at Borton Primary School.
MY REPLY IN CAPS BELOW-
diane Lomas says
August 5, 2016 at 3:25 pm
Thank you for your kind words Joy.IT IS FACTS BY THE RYTHYM OF YOUR WRITING AND WHAT IT RADIATES—IT IS LIKE ONE IS IN A DARK-FILLED ROOM AND YOUR TINY CANDLE BEING LIT AND AS YOU SHARED AND RECALLED I.M. ON ANOTHER SITE- THIS SITE GETS ALOT OF BASHING— AND ALL IT IS …AN AWARENESS; A PLACE TO BE AWARE…THE MORE LIT CANDLES THAT COME HERE AND ASK QUESTIONS AND SHARE//THE MORE WE SEE AWARENESS… THE MORE THE “TRUTH” WILL ILLUMINATE…THE NUMBER ONE THING YOUR MOTHER STATED TO ME WAS THE TOPIC “LOVE” AND THE VALUES OF IT…LOVING ONESELF AND LOVING OTHERS IS SOMETHING I WAS TOLD YOU CAN DO WITHOUT FEAR AND WITH HEART AND PURITY AND STRENGTH—YOU ARE A PERSON FILLED WITH DEPTH AND LAUGHTER AND YOU “GET” LIFE IS A GIFT NOT A CHORE…NO MATTER IF IT IS YEARS LATER THAT BROUGHT YOU HERE…YOUR PRESENCE IS A PRAYER ANSWERED FOR ME…AND YOUR LOVED ONES PRESENCE WAS A GREAT CONFIRMATION GIFT TOO…SO TO ME, THE MORE CANDLES HERE LIT THE MORE THAT DARK ROOM CAN UNCOVER AND DISCOVER…THOSE MISSING ELEMENTS….SO A DEEP THANK YOU AGAIN…
I appreciate your encouragement in my postings YOU ARE A PURE PERSON AND I LIKE THAT- YOU WRITE IN A STRUCTURED WAY I COMPREHEND…
as forestry is out of my field of training I THINK FORESTRY IS OUT OF THEIR LEAGUE AT THIS POINT—THEY NEED MUCH CHANGES—AND NEW TRAINING—
and I often wonder if I should be participating NEVER QUESTION IT. YOU HAVE A STRONG MIND AND YOU WILL ENHANCE THE SITE AND I TRULY FEEL YOUR CONTRIBUTION WILL LEAD SOME TO SPEAK MORE THAT WILL LEAD TO BETTER CLARITY- JUST BE “YOU”….
but after all that I have read I just had to.I AM SO GLAD YOU DID…I AM EXCITED TO HAVE YOU HERE.
I will send an email soon but for now to let you know I have taught underprivileged students in the Tucson Unified School District and not long before retiring I was teaching ESL (English as a Scond Language) to primary students at Borton Primary School.SOUNDS GOOD—UNTIL THEN WHAT DOES “COSMO” AND A NECKLACE…IT WAS THE OTHER THING I KEPT SEEING…OK…AWAIT OUR PRIVATE CHATS FOR THE PRIVATE TOUCH ON IT…K…
My nephew Kyle’s middle name is Cosmo-Kyle Cosmo Welshans
I will have to check my journal but I think I raced long ago with a Kyle W.-
This America is a very small world when I think about it.
I do not know why but Teaneck NJ and Red Banks NJ- keeps ringing my ears and my USA today editor/ol’ college pal so I have to check the logs…okay this stuff I have to shelf because I am really focused to other areas, (you perk my interest though) but I want to get back to this once I can see how things turn out with Sonny…I keep breathing deeply in and out with an exaggerated exhale…with a shake of my head…I just don’t know but Diane I am kind of in a “sad zombie zone” but yes I want to check my logs and see about this Kyle because the Kyle I knew lost his mom to cancer back in the 90’s and he was a lot of good energy so if he is “your” nephew and same one I will want you to say hi for me…or even catch up with him…I remember him and this other guy Chris; they had been in the service and we really had great chats before the ride-they were like a brother feeling to me—I remember he had long legs and made for better riding ability—I thought.
or call 480-280-5813
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on August 3, 2016 at 9:23 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> wwtktt said- Sunday, June 30, 2013 was pretty much the first
>> time MOST ( if not all ) of those firefighters had ever ‘been
>> there’ in that area.
>>
>> ( snip )
>>
>> so there was at least ONE ( Travis Carter ) who KNEW that very terrain-
Well.. yes… of course SOME of those firefighters who were there were ‘familiar with the area’. That was a pretty broad statement I made just to illustrate the point above and as soon as it left my keyboard I knew someone would probably ‘call me out’ on it.
I can ‘call myself out’ on it as well.
Of COURSE the ‘Peeples Valley Firefighters’ and the ‘Yarnell Fire Department’ FFs were totally ‘familiar’ with the area.
Of COURSE a lot of the other ‘ground people’ were as well.
Maybe I should have just said that it was probably the first time ‘most or all’ of the guys in the AIRPLANES had ever really ‘flown’ that area in a wildland firefighting mode…. since it had been 40 years since anything like that had happened there.
The whole point above was simply that this ‘area familiarity’ ( or lack thereof ) was probably NOT any kind of reason for the decisions being made “up in the air” over Yarnell that day. Not at all.
wwtktt said:
The VIDEO that Sonny and Joy say they saw then supposedly ‘disappeared’ from YouTube and has never ‘resurfaced’… but they still swear they DID see it.
I posted a link th epast day that has the hikers file on John Dougherty’s page with those answers-
ooopsss—tired…THAT video,,,we are not the only ones who saw it…Norb on this site did and MANY here in town too—
Just to clarify-one of my questions about this being Thomas French’s first time in Yarnell area is related to his possible-perceived danger to himself and his aircraft flying into that volitive situation to drop retardant.
Continuing to work in the peeples valley area may have seemed safer at that time.
Did he prioritize his own safety over engaging to help Granite Mountain?
Eric Marsh’s missing cell phone raises all sorts of questions and suspicions.
diane lomas says
August 6, 2016 at 4:46 pm
Eric Marsh’s missing cell phone raises all sorts of questions and suspicions.
HIS PHONE IS NOT MISSING- IT LAID IN A LANDFILL SOMEWHERE—
And this is a general FYI comment.
As usual, communicating in this format leaves a lot to be desired, so here are some clarifications on some recent posts I made where I used the phrases, “Their backgrounds, qualifications and skills would have gotten them jobs where they had to say, “Do you want fries with that?” to describe the situation that both Marsh and Steed were in outside of the WF or military worlds.
1. You do not have to convince me how brave, wonderful, patriotic, and skilled ALL of our returning veterans are from 15 years of war in the shit hole of the world that has unfairly fallen on something like 1% our our population.
And this includes combat infantry who have maturity and leadership skills along with many other skills that are to numerous to list here so I won’t even try. You need to convince employers of that fact, especially when everyone gets painted with a broad brush by a few who are anomalies…and even they need the love, help and support of a grateful nation as spoken by one who never served in our armed forces.
IF I were King of the United States of America for one day, I would write a constitutional amendment that would create public works projects similar to what they had back during the Great Depression that would guarantee every returning veteran a job and the ability to learn a skill set building and repairing our nations crumbling infrastructure and I would start with our beloved national crown jewels…our National Parks. I mean…have you seen the work that was done in our parks during that period of our nations history…it is still magnificent. To fund this effort, I would take a very small percentage of the money that is funneled ever day to the wealthiest top 1%.
2. You don’t need to convince me how much skill, training and abilities the average journeyman or journeywoman WF has, you need to convince employers of that. And I just want to remind everyone that when I could no longer maintain my wonderful perch on a pedestal the USFS built for me, USFS management gave me six months to find a new job within the agency or they would start the process to terminate my employment.
During that period of time and even prior to that time, because I could see it coming, I found out my skill set as a hotshot crew boss on the open job market qualified me outside of the WF community for a job where I had to ask, “Do you want to supersize that? (Since that was before they banned the supersize meal deals as bad PR) So…I know what I am talking about, been there…done that.
It is ugly out there for most people.
**
** NEW YORK TIMES CORRESPONDENT FERNANDA SANTOS CONFIRMS
** THAT GRANITE MOUNTAIN WAS PADDING THEIR TIMESHEET(S) ON
** THE DAY BEFORE THEY DIED.
On August 1, 2016 at 1:55 pm, calvin said…
>> 1. Norris had never worked on a fire with Marsh as Supt?
>>
>> 2. Donut and MacKenzie escaped a near burn over while the
>> crew was under control of STEED on the Doce?
>>
>> Interesting
On August 1, 2016 at 2:21 pm, Bob Powers replied…
>> I believe marsh and crew were on lightning fires
>> on Prescott NF prior to Yarnell.
Correct.
Things WERE ‘back to normal’ for GM for at least those TWO fire assignments between the ‘Doce’ and ‘Yarnell’.
But they were both just ‘one shot deals’. One operational shift each.
Time sheet and payroll records show Marsh WAS there with GM on both the ‘West Spruce’ and the ‘Mount Josh’ fires… and he had NOT been ‘tapped’ to be a DIVS for either of those fires so he was back to his usual role as ‘Supertintendent’ for at least those two fires just prior to Yarnell.
Folder: ADOSH / Yarnell Hill Investigation / City of Prescott Fire — GMHS
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABOStla3oytVAZisTxzqiVfa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/City%20of%20Prescott%20Fire%20–%20GMHS?dl=0
From filename: OSHA-ERIC MARSH 2013 hours.pdf…
————————————————————————————-
ERIC S MARSH, T 06/28/13 06/28/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00 – West Spruce
ERIC S MARSH, T 06/28/13 06/28/13 270 OVERTIME-W 6.50 – West Spruce
ERIC S MARSH, T 06/29/13 06/29/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00 – Mount Josh
ERIC S MARSH, T 06/29/13 06/29/13 270 OVERTIME-W 8.00 – Mount Josh
ERIC S MARSH, T 06/30/13 06/30/13 101 REGULAR PA 24.00 – Yarnell
————————————————————————————-
From filename: OSHA-JESSE STEED 2013 hours.pdf…
————————————————————————————-
JESSE J STEED, 06/28/13 06/28/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00 – West Spruce
JESSE J STEED, 06/28/13 06/28/13 270 OVERTIME-W 6.50 – West Spruce
JESSE J STEED, 06/29/13 06/29/13 101 REGULAR PA 8.00 – Mount Josh
JESSE J STEED, 06/29/13 06/29/13 270 OVERTIME-W 8.00 – Mount Josh
JESSE J STEED, 06/30/13 06/30/13 101 REGULAR PA 24.00 – Yarnell
————————————————————————————-
So BOTH Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed show the SAME exact ‘hours’ for the ‘West Spruce’ fire ( Friday, June 28 ) and then the ‘Mount Josh’ fire ( Saturday, June 29 ) and then Yarnell ( Sunday, June 30 ).
West Spruce Fire: 8 hours regular pay, 6.5 hours overtime. ( 14.5 hours )
Mount Josh Fire: 8 hours regular pay, 8 hours overtime. ( 16 hours )
Yarnell Fire: 24 hours regular pay.
And both of their actual ( signed ) TIME SHEETS for both ‘West Spruce’ and the ‘Mount Josh’ fire(s) also show the same thing.
West Spruce: On at 1630 ( 4:30 PM ), Off at 2300 ( 11:00 PM )
Mount Josh: On at 0600, Off at 1200, On again at 1230, Off clock at 2230 ( 10:30 PM )
That official Granite Mountain CTR ( Crew Time Report ) that was turned in for their work at the ‘Mount Josh’ fire on Saturday, June 29, 2013 is still online here…
http://media.phoenixnewtimes.com/9122596.0.pdf
The following is a TEXT version of that same Granite Mountain ‘Crew Time Reports’ both the ‘West Spruce’ fire on Friday, June 28, 2013 and the ‘Mount Josh’ fire on Saturday, June 29, 2013…
* Time sheet for Friday, June 28, 2013
—————————————————————————–
Crew Name: Granite Mountain Hotshots
Crew Number: 2
Office Responsible for Fire: PNF ( Prescott National Forest )
Fire Name: West Spruce
Fire Number: P3EKV8 ( aka: West Spruce Fire )
Date: 06/28/13 ( Friday, June 28, 2013 )
Total Hours | Time | On | Off | Employee
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Eric Marsh
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Steed, Jesse
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Whitted, Clayton
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Robert Caldwell
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Carter, Travis
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | McKenzie, Chris
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Turbyfill, Travis
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Ashcraft, Andrew
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Thurston, Joe
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Parker, Wade
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Rose, Anthony
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Zuppiger, Garret
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Norris, Scott
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Deford, Dustin
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Warneke, William
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Woyjeck, Kevin
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Mckee, Grant
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Misner, Sean
06.5 | 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) | 2300 ( 11:00 PM ) | Percin, John
NOTE: Crew of 19 all worked 6.5 hours on June 28, 2013.
TITLE of Officer-in-charge: AFMO
Officer-in-charge ( signature ): xxxxx ( Present but not legible )
—————————————————————————–
* Time sheet for Saturday, June 29, 2013
—————————————————————————–
Crew Name: Granite Mountain Hotshots
Crew Number: 1
Office Responsible for Fire: PNF ( Prescott National Forest )
Fire Name: Mount Josh
Fire Number: P3EKV8 ( aka: West Spruce Fire )
Date: 06/29/13 ( Saturday, June 29, 2013 )
Total Hours | Time | On | Off | Employee
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Marsh, Eric
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Steed, Jesse
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Whitted, Clayton
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Caldwell, Robert
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Carter, Travis
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | McKenzie, Chris
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Turbyfill, Travis
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Ashcraft, Andrew
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Thurston, Joe
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Parker, Wade
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Rose, Anthony
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Zuppiger, Garret
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Norris, Scott
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Deford, Dustin
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Warneke, William
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Woyjeck, Kevin
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Mckee, Grant
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | Misner, Sean
16.0 | 0600 ( 6:00 AM ) | 22:30 ( 10:30 PM ) | John Percin
NOTE: Crew of 19 all worked 16 hours straight on June 29, 2013
with just a half-hour break for lunch from 12:00 PM to 12:30 PM.
TITLE of Officer-in-charge: TFLD(t)
Officer-in-charge ( signature ): xxxxx ( Present but not legible )
——————————————————————————-
The City of Prescott Payroll records for Granite Mountain for Saturday, June 29, 2013 that were obtained by the Arizona Department of Occupational Safety and Health Department ( ADOSH ) also reflect these same 16 hours of work ( 8 hours of regular time and 8 hours of overtime ) ending at 10:30 PM the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013.
** FERNANDA SANTOS CONFIRMS GM ‘TIMESHEET PADDING’ ON
** SATURDAY, JUNE 29, 2013
In her book “The Fire Line”, New York Times correspondent Fernanda Santos DIRECTLY references ( and quotes ) the GM ‘Crew Time Sheets’ originally obtained and published by the ‘Phoenix New Times’.
From page 241 of Fernanda Santos’ book “The Fire Line”… In her SOURCES section.
—————————————————————————-
“They’d tussled from sunup”
Source: Crew Time Report, Granite Mountain Hotshots on the
Mount Josh Fire, June 29, 2013.
On at 6:00 a.m., off at noon.
Then on at 12:30 p.m., off at 10:30 p.m.
—————————————————————————-
Santos CONFIRMS that the officially submitted timesheet for Granite Mountain on Saturday, June 29, 2013 had them all ‘on the clock’ and earning overtime pay until 10:30 PM that night.
But in the actual ‘narrative’ of her book… Santos also absolutely CONFIRMS that the entire Granite Mountain crew was NOT actually working until 10:30 PM on the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013, as their official timesheet SAYS they were.
Santos verifies that Marsh was HOME and back in Prescott in time to have dinner with his wife BEFORE the first call came in ( to Marsh ) about Yarnell shortly before 8:00 PM, and that the other GM Hotshots had all also been ‘dismissed’ from the ‘Mount Josh’ assignment in the EARLY EVENING on Saturday and were all back HOME circa 7:30 to 8:00 PM… and that they were ALL told they had the next two days off before being ‘dismissed’…
From page 84 of Fernanda Santos’ book “The Fire Line”…
——————————————————————————
That night ( Saturday, June 29, 2013 ), after their work on the Mount Josh Fire, they ( Granite Mountain ) returned home to Prescott.
Marsh and his wife, Amanda, were taking a walk along Courthouse Square after dinner together at a restaurant in downtown Prescott when Marsh’s phone rang.
On the phone, he accepted the ( Yarnell ) assignment, then notified his men to get ready for another day on the fire line.
Page 85…
The Granite Mountain Hotshots thought they’d be home on Sunday, cuddling with their women, playing with their children, nursing hangovers after a night out. They’d planned time for cooking, making repairs, fishing, lounging around, watching movies.
They’d been DISMISSED from the Mount Josh fire early Saturday evening.
By 8:00 PM, their phones started ringing; Caldwell’s phone blared like a fire alarm as Steed called him. A few of the men still reeked of sweat. They’d tussled since sunup to to darkness with the Mount Josh Fire, breaking only thirty minutes to gobble up lunch in the noontime heat.
Steed knew exactly where the Granite Mountain Hotshots would be sent on Sunday.
A little after eight o’clock Saturday evening, he’d arrived home in Prescott Valley. He’d downed a cold Coors Light and some take-out Thai food. He’d sprawled on one of the new chairs on the patio and watched his children swinging on the backyard play set. His phone rang, and Marsh shared what he knew of the next day’s assignment.
——————————————————————————
Again… from Santos’ page 241… in her SOURCES section…
Source: Crew Time Report, Granite Mountain Hotshots on the
Mount Josh Fire, June 29, 2013.
On at 6:00 a.m., off at noon. Then on at 12:30 p.m., off at 10:30 p.m.
And then on Santos’ page 85…
“They’d been dismissed from the Mount Josh fire EARLY Saturday evening.”
NONE of the Granite Mountain Crew actually worked, earning ‘overtime pay’, until 10:30 PM Saturday evening on that day before the Yarnell Hill Fire.
The GM timesheets that were officially submitted were LYING.
3 ( THREE ) bogus hours of OVERTIME ( 7:30 PM to 10:30 PM ) listed for all 20 ( TWENTY ) GM Crewmembers equals a full 60 ( SIXTY ) hours of bogus OVERTIME pay, just for Saturday, June 29, 2013 alone.
And the subsequent Prescott Payroll records show that those ‘bogus overtime hours’ were scheduled to be PAID OUT to the employees themselves… and not just ‘disappeared’ into the chargebacks related to that fire.
Funny.
JOSH fire.
Than Josh ends up a lead role in movie about men.
🙂
WTKTT,
For general reference, the Fire Number: P3EKV8 is for what is referred to as Misc. ABC Fires based on their size class, A class fires less than 1/4 acre and a Class C Fire being 10 to 99 acres. (IRPG page 88) So, the Spruce and Josh Fires fell into that class of fires.
The “3” represents the Southwest Region 3.
It’s kind of a general catch-all charge code.
Thanks for pointing that out… and notice that the ‘P’ number is the SAME for both the ‘West Spruce’ fire and the ‘Mount Josh’ fire.
Not surprising ( both lightning strikes and both on/near the Prescott National Forest )… but this actually caused some confusion in the media and other places following the tragedy.
Also notice the following…
Fire Name: Mount Josh
Fire Number: P3EKV8 ( aka: West Spruce Fire )
Even on the CTR ( Crew Time Report ) they were ‘mixing and matching’ fire NAMES associated with that same ‘P’ number.
For BOTH of those fires… the person in charge was Prescott National Forest employee Jason Clawson.
Less than 24 hours after ‘dismissing’ Granite Mountain from the ‘Mount Josh’ in the early evening of Saturday, June 29, 2013… Jason Clawson would then become the one standing over that horrific scene on the floor of that blind box canyon in Yarnell and telling OPS Todd Able… “We have 19 confirmed ( dead )”.
Jason Clawson was NEVER interviewed by any investigator… nor were his fellow PNF employees Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell who also participated in that ‘ground rescue mission’ in Yarnell and were also privy to radio traffic in the timeframe leading UP to the tragedy.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Even on the CTR ( Crew Time Report ) they were ‘mixing and matching’ fire NAMES associated with that same ‘P’ number.”
It doesn’t matter about the names, it is the charge code, the P-number that matters.
Like I said,”It’s kind of a general catch-all charge code”for MISC ABC size class fires.
Robert the Second says
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
August 3, 2016 at 9:00 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It doesn’t matter about the names
It doesn’t matter to YOU… but I think you missed my point above.
It mattered ‘very much’ to some of the people who were trying to do THEIR jobs and ‘report’ about this tragedy and figure out what Granite Mountain was really doing in the 48 hours prior to their deaths.
It actually did take a while for the ‘media’ to ‘figure out’ that Granite Mountain had NOT been in the same physical location ( something called the ‘West Spruce Fire’ ) for both of the TWO days prior to being assigned to Yarnell.
That they had, in fact, worked TWO separate ( and distinct ) lightning strike fires in TWO separate locations just prior to their deaths.
Some rudimentary investigative work by some of the people who were trying to do THEIR jobs and ‘report’ what GMHS was doing in the 2 days prior would have very quickly ascertained that they were on separate fires days prior to the YH Fire.
NO big deal.
Okay… well… now that we have that settled ( I guess )… do you have any comments on what the original posting up above that started this particular ‘thread’ was actually ABOUT?
No comments
Were Jason Clawson,Aaron Hurlburd , and Bucky Yowell allowed to be interviewed?
Not as far as we know.
ADOSH didn’t even know to ‘request’ interviews with them ( which would have probably been denied, anyway, just like all requests to interview other USFS employees like Blue Ridge Hotshots ) because Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and the rest of the SAIT did everything they could to HIDE the fact that they were even THERE at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Their ‘presence’ at the fire… and their direct ‘involvement’ in the critical timeframe leading up to the ‘deployment’ and their subsequent presence on the ‘ground rescue team’ was ONLY revealed when that original “Helmet Camera” video was obtained via FOIA requests… and then the SAIT Interview Notes were also released via other FOIA requests.
To this day… there still is no ‘Resource Order’ in the public evidence record for the Yarnell Hill Fire regarding Prescott National Forest employee Jason Clawson… even though HE would be the one standing over the bodies at the deployment site and the one informing OPS1 Todd Abel over the radio that there were “19 confirmed dead”.
Just as is still the case for SPGS1 Gary Cordes, who was one of the ‘principals’ involved in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013. There had never been a ‘Resource Order’ for Yarnell for him, either.
Like he ( and Clawson ) were “never even there”.
I am moving this to the top because I don’t want it to get lost in the weeds and well…because I wrote it, so…
Gary Olson says
AUGUST 3, 2016 AT 3:59 AM
Actually…there are several issues at play in this little exchange.
1. When I said, “It figures that you and Smokey307 are friends from back in the day in that you both live in worlds that don’t exist anymore and I don’t think ever existed in the first place.”
That was in reference to an argument Bob and I had several months ago where Bob really got wrapped up pretty tight in the whole, “If you cut me…I bleed green! Because the Forest Service can do no wrong…or at least if they do, you can’t talk about it.”
And I told Bob the world he describes where the Forest Service is full of good people who only want to do good things…as in the TV Forest Ranger as portrayed on the hit show “Lassie”, doesn’t exist anymore and I don’t think it ever really did…except in Bob’s mind.
And Bob accuse me of “hating” the Forest Service. I explained to Bob that I neither love nor hate the Forest Service…it is too big, too complex and too diverse to put in a love or hate box. It is what it is. A large complex federal agency with competing agendas. So…none of that has anything to do with you and me…I don’t think.
2. You said I said, “You also posted: “A world where strong and quiet men can let their actions speak for themselves etc. and that TEACHING EVERYONE TO KNOW AND FOLLOW THE 10 AND 18 AT ALL TIMES IS THE ANSWER TO EVERY QUESTION ABOUT WF SAFETY.”
(EMPHASIS ADDED)”
And yes, that was an executive summary to express my opinion that I have long held and exposed on this thread that WF safety is NOT nearly as simple as you and Bob have always said it is…by rote…like robots…like broken records.
3. I have a Mother of All Posts swirling around inside my head I don’t know if I will ever be able to capture…but here is glimpse of it for you…special because I don’t like you, but I respect you. And that is enough for me to want to try and help you.
Bob trained you, you trained Shinstock and the number 2 (I don’t feel like doing any research right now…even if I spelled Mike’s (?) name wrong, you know who I am talking about), they trained Scott Norris, Scott Norris had a chance to save the crew IF he would have stood up and followed through on what YOU taught him, and he experienced an EPIC FAILURE, you had a chance to save the crew vicariously and you experienced and EPIC FAILURE. I am not interested in who could have, should have, or would have…I am only interested in results…the bottom line. Neither you nor Scott Norris get an A for Effort, you don’t even get an E for Effort, you and Scott Norris get an EF for EPIC Failure.
I KNOW that if ONE man would have stood up and refused to stand down and said to Steed, “I am not going down that chimney and you shouldn’t either!” Steed would have found enough courage to stand up to Eric Marsh and the crew would all be alive today. But he didn’t….end of story.
Whatever was going on that day overrode everything and that means EVERYBODY is subject to the same exact EPIC FAILURE because you and Shinstock and Scott Norris are as good as they come…and none of you could stop or even slow down the worst catastrophic EPIC FAILURE in WF history.
YOU need to STOP repeating that the 10 and the 18 are the answer to every WF safety question because they are NOT.
You had your shot to prove you and Bob are right on June 30, 2013,…and all we have is almost an entire hotshot crew burned alive to show for your 27 years of building the Payson Hotshot Culture.
Let’s open our minds and look beyond the 10 and the 18 and why in spite of all your best efforts and decades of training…you couldn’t make a difference on that awful day.
4. Got to go to the dunes…I hear the sand whispering my name and I have 3 buddies counting on me to be there. So…we are going to have to pick this up again next week.
Gary Olson says
AUGUST 3, 2016 AT 5:00 AM
Oh…and one more thing. I already told this story on this blog but now is a good time to tell it again.
About 18 months ago I was having breakfast on a trip back to Arizona with one of my old squad bosses who I trained from an FNG.
We were talking about the Yarnell Hill Fire and discussing the fly around video that WTKTT had made about that time.
My old friend looked me square in the eye and said, “Gary…you know I loved you man, and I never had reason to doubt you or refuse to follow you. But if you would have ordered me to take my squad down that chute into that boiling cauldron of fire and smoke, I would have refused. I would have not gone down there.”
This man is the very epitome of a no nonsense kind of guy…I believed him since I have never had a reason to NOT believe anything he has said in 35 years and he went on to have a highly successful career in another agency.
I was the autocrat hotshot crew boss and you were…not, So…where did you go wrong and how did I get it right?
And then Bob stepped in to vomit the following, which I still don’t understand but that is nothing new.
Bob Powers says
AUGUST 3, 2016 AT 9:38 AM
Parse to the great and wonderful GARY who is so full of himself he is spewing BULL SHIT all over the place
What was it you said if you told your crew to hunt Easter eggs they would even it was not Easter.
You just confirmed that no you previous crew member would have told you no period.
So your squads did not have a say in decisions BS…….
Yes I still bleed GREEN but I have always called a Spade a Spade I thought I had explained that to you oh well.
You just blew your cover. Enjoy.
Reply
Gary Olson says
AUGUST 3, 2016 AT 10:46 AM
I’m not really following you logic there…Bob. My old squad boss affirmed that although I never gave him a reason to tell me “no”, he would have done so in a heartbeat if that was the right thing to do.
Are you okay?
And like I told you before, I bleed red…just like the GMIHC. You don’t have anything on me with your history with the Forest Service…except I continued to develop both as an employee and as a person whereas you didn’t…that’s all. Don’t hate me for it. You made those choices and you like the choices you made, so why be jealous of me?
I think you bleed green because of the green eyed monster that is inside of you.
Gary Olson says
AUGUST 3, 2016 AT 11:30 AM
And why do you think my old squad boss would say that after we are both old (and highly successful retirees as far as govt. grunts go) sitting there eating breakfast. He didn’t HAVE to tell me he would have told me “no” if I would have given him reason to so back in the day.
He could have simply said the opposite or have said nothing at all about it. Instead…he chose to say in effect..”.If you would have ever given me a dangerous order I would have refused to follow it.” Right?
Why would he have a reason to lie after all of this time has bone by? He had nothing to gain. I was not and am not in a position to help him with anything. He doesn’t need me for anything. He retired basically at my same level except with another agency years ago, He is living the well deserved and earned) good life just as I am.
What I am missing here…Bob? Not that I want or need to spend a lot of time analyzing you…Bob.
Your missing a lot including your service compared to mine my life as a employee and a son of a employee and as a son of a employee killed in the line of duty.
Having said that, that dose not mean I did not disagree with the Forest Service at times nor did I ever hold back on those disagreements. I have said this all before but you continue to attack me and my record.
Your record is pitiful and you spent 1/3 the time in the FS I did not including growing up there. Now you did go to the Sage Brush Lawmen and did well I guess.
We are from two different Camps and I will still put my record against yours
My Jobs both Certified Red card ratings and positions beyond What you did.
So you are full of your self but you are lacking in Fire Service. You have been out of the FS for longer than I have been retired. You served what 11 years?
I was in a Forest Fire Staff Position for 16 years That’s as in FIRE STAFF.
We keep getting back to you attacking me so we are Back to you a one stupid Ass HOLE. You have lost all credibility here by attacking those you do not want to agree with. You are truly the one that will destroy this site you always want the final word by belittling others, well I am not the type to listen to your BS and not reply.
Go work on your book that will never be done either just like your life.
You are irrelevant so no use responding to your Ignorance any more.
Only that I will always state the Obvious and preach the 10 and 18 till the day I leave this earth. You and no one else will ever change my mind.
And no it is just not the Forest service but the Federal Government, States, County’s other countries that also now follow the 10 and 18.
They are even more current today because of all the Wild Land Fire departments world wide that have adopted them.
NO ONE HAS FOUND A REPLACEMENT YET they are alive and well thank very much.
If you meant to say the 10 and the 18 GUIDELINES or MANAGEMENT CYA, well then…I agree with you.
Funny And Stupid
You cant make orders 10 Guide lines it don’t work.
The shout watch outs 18 are guide lines.
Big difference you wont change the orders from your little perch
no one will accept that. Enjoy
Gary,
I brought this up from below related to your independent thinking Squad Boss that was/would have been an Ester Denier..
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343775
What…that is the comment you come back with?
What happened to informing me that comparing what Scott Norris actually did on the YHF to what my squad boss said he would have done is a false equivalency.
(False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.”)
Which I thought was a favorite concept of yours?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
As far as your main point goes…I will have to ask my old squad boss the next time I have breakfast with him. He is actually the one who told me about the, “Easter egg” concept at a breakfast some several months earlier.
I had never heard that term before and I thought it was funny and not only that…it paints a easily understood mental picture so I introduced it here to help explain the authoritarian hotshot culture to those who have never heard of hotshots which is almost everyone.
I guess the best explanation I can come up with under the circumstances, is to say that it is indeed a conundrum..a paradoxical, insoluble, or difficult problem; a dilemma.
And like I have said many times here on this thread, I thought EVERY hotshot crew was run on the authoritarian principle (which gets a bad rap by the way…from YOU) until I met you again on this thread after a few decades. I never knew you were so f***ing weird…no offense.
You really should read what Wikipedia has to say about it. I think it has many strong points that are particularly suited to the type of work hotshots do. For example, it says Bill Gates used that style of management to build his empire. Your welcome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_leadership_style
Well…I am all packed up and ready to hit the Dunes at first light. The shifting sands are whispering my name!
P.S. Muzzy,
In addition to breaking the bead on my tire…come to find out I also bent the control arm on my machine which cost me a lot of money to get fixed. So that really broke me of sucking eggs. I am definitely not THAT GUY anymore.
It’s all fun and games until somebody gets an eye put out. (Which I have heard came from the original Greek Olympics because they put each others eyes out sometimes when they wrestled.)
Safety First!
Gary,
You posted: “I never knew you were so f***ing weird…no offense.”
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I like to think of it more as ‘different.’
Like when the District Ranger asked one year what our ‘Diversity’ was, my reply was “We are 100% ‘Diversity’ we are all different.’
You can imagine his response.
And your ‘no offense’ comment. Sure, you meant it.
I am not a wussy offended by every little thing.
Here’s an article by Matt Walsh titled: “Sorry, but it’s your fault if you’re offended all the time”
Here’s an article by Matt Walsh titled: “Sorry, but it’s your fault if you’re offended all the time”
http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/09/16/sorry-but-its-your-fault-if-your-offended-all-the-time/
Gary,
My point was, you posted again and again that your Happy Jack Hot Shots were trained in the autocratic ‘just do what you’re told’, we don’t want you to think for yourselves mentality.
Your Squad Boss, a very sharp guy, evidently did NOT subscribe to the Easter Bunny BS and was not a Groupthinker, said he would have told you no because it was a deadly assignment.
Would have have told you no at the time he actually was a HJHS or was that Hindsight Bias?
Neither Scott Norris nor any other Payson HS was trained in the autocratic way.
Gary,
You posted this ridiculously illogical diatribe: “…. Scott Norris had a chance to save the crew IF he would have stood up and followed through on what YOU taught him, and he experienced an EPIC FAILURE, you had a chance to save the crew vicariously and you experienced and EPIC FAILURE. I am not interested in who could have, should have, or would have…I am only interested in results…the bottom line. Neither you nor Scott Norris get an A for Effort, you don’t even get an E for Effort, YOU AND SCOTT NORRIS GET AN EF FOR EPIC FAILURE. (EMPHASIS ADDED)
<
<
<
"…. AND NONE OF YOU COULD STOP OR EVEN SLOW DOWN THE WORST CATASTROPHIC EPIC FAILURE IN WF HISTORY. (EMPHASIS ADDED)
"YOU need to STOP repeating that the 10 and the 18 are the answer to every WF safety question because they are NOT."
This is some of the most twisted and perverted and nonsensical logic I have witnessed on this
site, and especially from you.
To lay blame on me or Schinstock or even Scott Norris for that matter, for the deaths of the 19 GMHS is ludicrous and unfounded and entering into the realms of defamation, libel, and slander.
That was a Supervisor (Steed) responsibility and fault,NOT Crewmember Scott Norris or any other GMHS Crewmember. He and the others did their part.
I can go on repeating that the 10 and the 18 are the answer to every WF safety question if I so choose, however, I will not, because they are NOT the answer.
You are correct when you state: "the 10 and 18 are the answer to every WF safety question."
They are NOT the answer to "EVERY WF safety question" (EMPHASIS ADDED), however, they are to many, if not most of them. The rest are attributable to Human Factors and Human Error.
This comment is in regards to the Scott Norris talks. I do believe that Scott being trained by the Payson IHC gave him the knowledge to the difference between right and wrong. What you have to remember is Scott was a first year man on GMHS. In my experience guys that transfer between crews are very similar to rookies in that they have to prove themselves and figure out where there place is on the crew. Obviously Scott was no rookie and was probably pretty squared away. It’s more of finding your role and becoming close to your new crew members. If you have been part of a crew you would know that all 20 guys work well together, but when work is over most guys hang out with the ones that they can relate to and not the entire crew.
I think that having the experience on with the Payson IHC made Scott a very valuable asset. If you look at Steed’s background he was on the Prescott IHC before transferring to GMHS. This makes sense Steed may have valued Scott’s opinions/concerns. My opinion on what “may” have happened is this. Scott as well as a few others may have voiced their concerns to Jesse Steed. Whether Steed radio’d Marsh and had an argument based on what his crew members concerns were he failed to refuse the order to leave the black.
I completed a research paper for a college English course. This research paper looked into the GHMS leadership on the Yarnell Fire as well as the crew’s culture. Let me ask all of you this, if Steed didn’t want to leave the black why didn’t he refuse the order? All Hotshots carry a little yellow book known as a Pocket Response Guide. (This is from my research paper) Captain Jesse Steed was ordered to move the men from the safety of the “black” to the ranch house. At that point Steed could have voiced his concerns and used the Pocket Response Guide as a reference. He could have used page one which is labeled Risk Management Process. During this process Steed and his squad leaders could have went through the five steps within this page which would have established a legitimate reason to refuse the order assigned by Marsh. According to page 20 of the Pocket Guide which is labeled “How to Properly Refuse Risk” there is a statement in bold. This statement lets the firefighter know that if an “unsafe” assignment is to be refused, an alternate way to complete the assignment needs to be established (2006). It may have been hard for Steed to refuse Marsh’s order. As the crew Captain he worked under Marsh on a regular basis. In my opinion, if Steed had received this order from another leader he would have rejected the order and found an alternate solution.
I realize that this is woulda, coulda, shoulda, but it would have kept all of them alive. Would there have been tension between Marsh and Steed. Probably. What’s worse a some tension or 19 lives lost? How frustrating was it for the crew members that didn’t agree with the movement when they were ordered to prepare a deployment site.
You are making an assumption by stating Steed would have whipped out his pocket guide and done the risk assessment, then a refusal with an option.
I am going to assume that the crew, who had been working really long days for multiple days, in some really harsh conditions were fed up listening to Marsh telling them what to do and did not even whip out the book, they said “There is no use arguing with him, lets just finish this shift, then we are on days off. Saddle up, boys”….
Mental fatigue and sleep deprivation have a way of impacting cognitive thinking.. Just saying..
This might be neither here nor there… but the ACTUAL truth is that according to the ‘guidelines’… and also according to the information in the SWCC ‘readiness’ documents that were supplied to the SAIT following the tragedy… GM would have actually also been able to work the NEXT DAY ( Monday, July 1, 2013 ) before they would have reached their ‘mandatory two days off’ point in their ‘work schedule’.
So it really wasn’t just a “let’s get off this ridge and go home for two days” situation on the afternoon of June 30, 2013.
There is every likelihood that both Marsh and Steed were believing they WOULD ‘remain’ there in Yarnell and have to just ‘go to work’ the NEXT day ( if they hadn’t actually all burned to death that Sunday ).
But I do hear what you are saying.
As sad as it might be to consider it… they might have all died not for ANY reasons regarding ANY desire to ‘protect’ anything.
They might have just been wanting to get somewhere where they were going to be able to have a real dinner and not be ‘stuck’ out on some fucking ridge.
Been saying that for 3 years hello any body out there??????????
“Hello…McFly?”
“Think, McFly…Think”
Super Pete,
All good points/questions. I personally believe that Marsh thought the optics of GM hunkering at the Boulder Springs Ranch were better than having them lounging in the black where they had lunch. Gary has pointed out that press coverage is important. People want to know what there tax dollars are doing for them. Willis was part of a municipal fire department; those guys were born to do PR and their shiny equipment and great pensions prove its value. According to discussion below, Marsh was just beginning to get it after he saw the effect of saving a tree important to the locals that GM would otherwise have cut up for firewood. Less than two weeks before the YHF.
Maybe if the PRG had some boiler plate press releases that would make staying in the black look brave (which it wasn’t) or courageous (which it would have been). See post below by RTS about risk. August 2 at 8:14 am.
I can’t copy and paste when I’m in the editing window.
Maybe that’s what you should do, write a series of informational boiler plate to be used by HS units that would educate the public about how WLFF has to work. Quotes to start with, “They also serve who only stand and wait.” John Milton and, “The better part of valor is discretion.” Shakespeare. The second was spoken by Falstaff, a man not known for bravery, but who nevertheless lived to fight another day. You might want to soft-pedal that one. Also, “You just have to let the big dog eat.” See below from Otis.
Also, “Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.” Don’t know which wise person said it.
This is a good point from Super Pete and leans to the idea that wild land fire fighting and structure protection should be seperated. The GMHS were obligated to do structure protection, (again Willis, the man above Marsh stated that is what they do); therefore, there was a compulsion despite the danger of dropping off into a never do situation. Since there was no alternative except to stay in the black or risk going down to the structures on the North side of Glen Isla, Steed could actually not offer an alternative that would get them there in time to use their Pulaskis to make feeble efforts to protect structures against a ferocious fire with winds behind it flowing in at 45mph.
Mayor Kuyendayhl, when referring to the Yarnell Hill Fire after I told him about Joy and I not going down into that very canyon from the two track–“Common sense goes a long way”. That goes along with Gary Olson’s statement that the rules are made to cover the asses of the upper eschelon and his statement that the rules will occasionally be broken despite all attempts to be safe. However, in the case of the GMHS command we see there must have been a certain contempt toward even knowing the safety rules when the subordinate Donut lables them as “Hillbilly” and outmoded. Good lord, if you do not have a knowledge of the wild land fire fighters safety rules then you better have good sense–something that certainly was amiss in the Yarnell Wild Land Fire on June 30, 2013.
Thanks Woodsman–you are one that would have that good sense and if injured or killed it would be a very slim chance it would be because you did not use it. Experience in the woods goes a long ways toward knowing how wind changes during thunderstorm situations and would keep you out of entanglements with no route of escape with a wild fire near and apt to change direction soon.
Indeed, I too have shed many a tear and every time we hiked that two track there is a small monument of rocks to honor the men that Joy and I pass on the way up to the point of fire origin. It breaks my heart there since that was where we passed by those men as they were headed up to the fire edge and we were headed down. We always add a rock there in their honor–you are not allowed to go to the fence to honor the men unless you have explicit permission from Ben Palm. And as we have learned from folks like Dr. Ted Putnam and Gary Olson that did not happen in their cased despite their impeccable wild land fire fighting credentials.
Refusals like that only add to the suspicion that there is much that certain higher officials do not want discovered. They hide it under the guise of sensitivities, but that is bull shit when it concerns evaluation of a situation by experts that can use their expertise to give valued analysis of what killed those men–information important to the saving of future wild land fire fighters lives. You would have thought that a very detailed investigation would have ensued, yet in this world of fear of suits and cronyism to protect reputations we got what we could expect. IM and JD have challenged the status quo–he being a hero with the balls to do so.
Yes, the Doctors determined that an immediate catheterization of the heart was necessary–so necessary that I was transferred by ambulance from the VA hospital to a private hospital this past Sunday. The VA did not have a cardiologist available to do the job on Sunday–the reason for the transfer. The doctors felt a heart attack was emminent in my case–third or fourth now–I am beginning to loose acoount.
Well I did not particularly like Doc Mohammed, so I checked myself out and headed home with Joy driving. That could give you a heart attack in itself, no kidding. Lets see, this is Tuesday, I am still kicking, and I am going to visit the usual outside Cardiologist that I have regularly seen and give a certain amount of trust to. What the hell does this have to do with wild land fire fighting. Well it means that we have a mind, and if things don’t look right we damn sure do not have to listen to those claiming to be experts. However I might have missed out on seeing 70 virgins.
I don’t want to get into religion–I respect yours whether you think of God, Allah, or Thor. I can’t help but wonder though if Thor wouldn’t beat the shit out of Allah Some of the old Irish and Norse Gods are pretty damn tough and could make a radioactive parking lot out of certain areas if our country keeps getting fooled with–a situation that would make the twin towers look like a walk in the park. Our people are not wimps and after seeing how many brave firefighters died along with the thousands of innocent people–over two hundred being heroes–about half of them Irish decent heroes. I am one to think the Irish Gods are not too damn happy over that incident.
The way I see it…someone is starting there day out lying. Facts are who has accidents and drives both sides of the highway because he says he pays taxes to both sides. Never again will I help you or drive you. Through the years who had vehicles hanging off bluffs…oh that would be good driver Sonny. You do your health shit solo. .you have been not nice so let someone else deal with it…I ain’t.
Man..that was a good save from Sonny…it did not matter if it was a race car driver driving him…he ain’t comfortable with any person driving but himself..I am similar. I trust my mom and husband but I am skeptical of a lot plus Sonny…so I took him for his cardio thing…all forgiven. Im a bit sensitive because I’m suppose to be doing my area and I’ve been tied 24-7 to his and I feel like I’m not able to do much more. Drained. However I got some foias…The BLM FOIA fee is at an appx $250 right now and local ones were 6-6.25 and Yarnell is appx sixty dollars… Oh well…interesting to read…makes me want to play GI Joe and line my men up on who was where on fire…etc
I have exposed this particular theory for a long time on this thread. Eric Marsh was an unstable and erratic leader. Jesse Steed’s background in both the Marines and WF made he qualified to say, “Do you want fries with that?” outside of firefighting (both structural and WF in his case), He had a wife who did not work outside of home (I think) and two very young children who depended on his paycheck and the stability it provided including the health insurance (been there done that)..
Eric Marsh was capable of taking all of that away in a heartbeat if Steed crossed him on something that big…or even little. Eric Marsh ran his old number 2 off for engaging in some creative but not illegal or unethical use motel points that was NOT a violation of the City of Prescott’s policies.
The only policies he violated were inside Eric Marsh’s head but that was enough to destroy his assistants career although I’m not sure what happened to him after Marsh ran him off. In any case, Jesse Steed was NOT in a good position to lose his job.
Jesse Steed bet he could keep his job and NOT kill his crew at the same time. He lost. No little book or any set of rules will protect you from a vindictive supervisor in the government or anywhere else, maybe especially anywhere else, if that supervisors has the support of management.
Don’t you watch the news even if you don’t work for the government or any where else except inside a protective bubble? Those stories about employees usually don’t end well except rarely for a very select few IF they have a EEOC or Whistleblower angle to plan, a ton of money or other support and 10 or 20 years to fight it in court.
Been there and done that both as an employee and a supervisor. Both when unethical managers wanted to shit can me and when I had to let people go who would not get with the program.
Oh…and I retired after 32 years on my own terms and schedule, but I would not have bet on me any number of times. The odds were against me making it. I was as surprised as anybody when I came out the other end of the meat grinder relatively intact.
Gary,
I have resisted this line of thinking, but the more I find out about GM, the more I tend to agree with you about Marsh.
I still blame Willis and the PFD Chief for Marsh being in charge. Even though they had not come up through WLFF, they knew the importance of good leadership both in getting the job done and in keeping the crew safe. Especially given the youth of most crew members. Leaving a madman in charge of a safety critical job was unconscionable.
There has been a lot of water go under the bridge as far as Marsh’s temperament, background and suitability for the position he was in over the past three years.
And I spent the first year defending him because I only knew of the “official” version because I was in the Willis et al loop to some extent. Once I learned the truth about Marsh…I was SHOCKED at how deeply flawed he truly was.
Oh…and one more thing. I have always, and will always continue to blame Willis for Marsh being in that position.
Willis either knew or should have known…how deeply flawed Marsh was.
In fact, now that I included that caveat…I know Willis knew how deeply flawed Marsh was (everyone else in the WF community did) but rather than use that information as a disqualifier…Willis used it as a control tool on Marsh as in, “You are blackballed with the USFS, your background, training and skills will get you a job where you have to ask, “Do you want fries with that?” if you don’t make me one happy camper…so buckle down boy!”
Darrell Willis was/is a “political animal”.
He spent his career in those ‘circles’ ( and supposedly struggled with alcohol abuse himself, just like Marsh ).
Darrell Willis knew/knows very well how important it is to have “leverage” in your dealings with both superiors AND subordinates.
From page 25 of the Fernanda Santos book “The Fire Line”…
———————————————————–
Marsh’s ambition, grit, and UNRELENTING sense of ‘justness’ were the spine of the Granite Mountain Hotshots. These traits also matched the vision of Darrell Willis, one of the crew’s founding fathers, who’d fought his own youthful battles with alcohol.
Marsh and Willis both PREACHED redemption through hard work, not handouts.
———————————————————–
Yes, NO ONE either makes it to become the Chief of a city fire department or maintains that position for 15 years unless they are a political animal of the highest order. Especially in an in-bred hillbilly haven like “Everybody’s Home Town.”
Super Pete,
Thanks for your post.
I am interested in your college English research paper that looked into the GHMS leadership on the YH Fire and their crew culture.
I have been doing the same since July 1, 2013.
Is it published online and/or accessible online anywhere? How can I get a hold of it?
Yes, me too, I would like to plagiarize portions of it for the book I MAY finish some day, although I learned a valuable lesson from our potential next first lady, I will attribute it.
Reply to Super Pete post on August 3, 2016 at 6:24 am
>> Super Pete said…
>>
>> This comment is in regards to the Scott Norris talks.
Thanks for chiming in on the discussion.
>> Super Pete also said…
>>
>> What you have to remember is Scott was a first year man on GMHS.
Yes. He was.
>> Super Pete also said…
>>
>> In my experience guys that transfer between crews are very similar to rookies
>> in that they have to prove themselves and figure out where there place is on
>> the crew. Obviously Scott was no rookie and was probably pretty squared
>> away. It’s more of finding your role and becoming close to your
>> new crew members.
Hotshot-turned-author Kyle Dickman had full access to the people that knew Scott Norris well ( including interviews with family, friends, and yes, even Mike Schinstock, Norris’ former Payson IHC Superintendent and the man who ‘trained’ Norris to be a Hotshot ).
Dickman doesn’t report there having been any ‘difficulties’ there with Norris ‘integrating’ into the GM crew… but it DOES remain a fact that it was his first season with that crew and he was still ‘finding his place’.
Dickman mentions ( in his book ) that Scott Norris actually had not been hesitating to say ( to other GM Crew Members ) “That’s not how we did things at Payson”… but Dickman also said Scott was mostly keeping to himself and not ‘elaborating’ on his past experiences… unless ASKED.
Dickman said Scott Norris WANTED ( very much ) for that ‘gig’ with Granite Mountain to work out so he could stay in Prescott and further his relationship with Heather Kennedy… and Dickman also reported that Scott Norris had, in fact, come to have a great amount of respect for Jesse Steed.
We are not ‘picking’ on Scott Norris.
I think the reasons we have been ‘discussing’ Scott Norris lately are because…
1. He was trained as a Payson Hotshot… and it has been suggested by the person who actually ‘created’ the ‘Payson Hotshot Culture’ and who was the Superintendent of that famous organization ( for a hisoty-making 26 years ) that Payson Hotshots are SPECIFICALLY ‘trained’ to NEVER just ‘blindly follow orders’, especially when there is an obvious risk of injury or death.
But he ( apparently ) DID… regardless of this ‘training’.
If Scott Norris was SUPPOSED to have received the very training he needed to keep himself ( and others? ) ALIVE that day… but he ( and the others ) ended up dying horribly anyway… then that means it can ( and WILL ) happen again at any moment… at any time… and in the same way.
That makes a discussion about Scott Norris himself, and this alleged ‘training’, and what he did or didn’t do on June 30, 2013 directly relevant to the “Human Facots” aspects of this tragedy and trying to understand what went WRONG that day, so that it can ( as much as humanly possible ) be PREVENTED from happening again in the SAME way.
2. It has ALSO been reported that Scott Norris was not only WARNED about transferring to ‘Granite Mountain’ ( by his current Payson IHC Superintendent Mike Schinstock )… that even after he did transfer… Scott Norris was then reporting BACK to his former Superintendent ( and others ) that even after just a few fires with that ‘organization’ Norris was ‘uncomfortable’ with the decision making being practiced over in that GM organization.
This seems like just one more ‘confirmation’ that there really was this tendency in the GM organization to treat the standard rules of engagement as “Hillbilly” and to regularly practice some kind of “risk a lot / save a lot” policy under the guise of some sort of “Esse Quam Videri” slogan, or something.
It was making Payson-trained Hotshot Scott Norris ‘uncomfortable’… even after only working just a few fires with that GM ‘organization’.
It seems even Scott Norris himself felt like the ‘Granite Mountain’ organization was a potential ‘accident looking for a place to happen’.
In addition to ‘reason 1’ above… this ‘reason 2’ regarding Norris makes it even more relevant to include him in the “Human Factors” discussion regarding this National Historic Tragedy.
3. Author Kyle Dickman also reports that Hotshot Scott Norris wasn’t just ‘familiar’ with prior historic WFF burnovers and fatality incidents… he had STUDIED these incidents and was, himself, an ‘expert’ on them and the circumstances that led to them. He had printed copies of all the reports sitting right there on his own bookshelf at his home.
That simply ‘adds’ to the other reasons above for ‘including’ Scott Norris himself in the “Human Factors” discussion.
If this highly-trained Hotshot who was. moreso than MOST Hotshots, ALSO highly knowledgeable and aware and a ‘student’ of many prior entrapment situations could, himself, end up burning to death on the floor of a BLIND box canyon filled with explosive fuel, with no lookout, at the height of a burn cycle due to a completely mis-calculated ‘risky’ move… then it surely can ( and WILL ) happen again to OTHERS unless circumstances are FULLY understood and some REAL ‘corrective’ action(s) are taken.
>> Super Pete also said…
>>
>> Let me ask all of you this, if Steed didn’t want to leave
>> the black why didn’t he refuse the order?
That remains the “19 million dollar” question, doesn’t it?
>> Super Pete also said…
>>
>> All Hotshots carry a little yellow book known as a Pocket Response Guide.
>> (This is from my research paper) Captain Jesse Steed was ordered to
>> move the men from the safety of the “black” to the ranch house. At that
>> point Steed could have voiced his concerns and used the Pocket Response
>> Guide as a reference.
Correct… and there is no question that Jesse Steed ( and indeed, Scott Norris and most of the other GM Hotshots ) was fully aware of that ‘procedure’.
There is even evidence of them ( the GM organization ) actually ‘exercising’ that ‘stop gap safety procedure’ at least once or twice before, to keep THEMSELVES safe, on OTHER assignments.
This is the ‘process’ that is ‘in place’ to SUPPOSEDLY ‘keep Hotshots safe’ when being asked to do things by people above them who don’t fully understand the circumstances out on the actual ‘fireline’.
But on June 30, 2013… that ‘process’ FAILED… in a horrific manner.
WHY? ( Because unless the WHY is understood… it will FAIL again ).
When you actually DO have ‘safety procedures’ in place… and they then suffer a massive FAILURE that results in multiple needless DEATHS… any ‘sane’ organization that cares about the safety of its employees would take a hard look at these ‘procedures’ and try to determine WHY they ‘failed’… in a horrific manner.
>> Super Peter also said…
>>
>> It may have been hard for Steed to refuse Marsh’s order.
>> As the crew Captain he worked under Marsh on a regular basis.
>> In my opinion, if Steed had received this order from another leader
>> he would have rejected the order and found an alternate solution.
That has always been one of the ‘answers’ to the “19 million dollar” question you already asked above.
The fact that the piss-poor transition from Russ Shumate’s Saturday ‘Initial Attack’ to this thrown-together Type 2 ‘Short’ team didn’t have enough ‘Division’ support showing up Sunday… which then led to them ‘stealing’ Eric Marsh away from Granite Mountain to be ‘Division A’… definitely had an ‘influence’ on what would eventually happen that fateful day.
And it wasn’t just the fact that Jesse Steed’s up-level ‘Division A’ supervisor was now the man he has to sleep and eat with ‘in the field’ and take orders from day-after-day… and who also had control of his actual ‘future’…
…it also caused all the critical communications between a ‘Division’ and his ‘Type 1 IHC’ resource to take place on a PRIVATE Intra-Crew radio channel, away from the normal ‘supervision’ of OTHERS at the command level.
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley himself eventually ‘Agreed’ ( in public ) on June 20, 2014, that this fact alone was a ‘contributing factor’ the tragedy.
>> Super Pete also said…
>>
>> I realize that this is woulda, coulda, shoulda, but it would have
>> kept all of them alive.
Not long after the tragedy… US Forestry employee and Director of the official “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned” center Britt Rosso filmed a VIDEO that was intended to be a ‘message’ regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire.
In that video… he looks right into the camera and says…
“In order to fully understand this… we must TALK ABOUT IT. Openly and Freely”.
That’s exactly what we are doing… and thanks again for your contributions to this ongoing ‘discussion’.
Oh…and one more thing. As far as Scott Norris goes, my experience was the same as yours but keep in mind he was a senior crew member and with that title and pay grade came a higher level of responsibility and accountability, right up to and including the part where the crew boss says in effect,
“I have told Marsh “no” three time and he ordered me to follow him to the ranch four times. I don’t think we can make it boys, but we are going to drop down off this ridge into a chimney in front of a wildfire of Biblical proportions. I can’t really see what’s going on down there because it is a valley filled with fire and smoke but…HERE WE GO!”
Yes…well, that is when it would have been a really good time for Norris to stand up and refuse to stand down and say in effect;
“I was trained by the best, who was trained by the best…the one…the only…the legendary (no sarcasm intended, he is a living legend)…Mr Fred S (I get tired of Googling his name every time I want to spell it) on the one…the only…the legendary Payson Hotshots (no…really, they have always been a really good crew even though they are from the Tonto) in the Payson Hotshot Way (C. 2016, Fred S., All rights reserved) so I am not going to follow you while you break all of the rules or guidelines (depending on your point of view) at the same time without a backup plan, so….”
Here Ye, Here Ye, Here Ye…School’s in Session
The proximate motivation for my latest installment of Woodsman’s Lessons is a growing fatigue of the Lies of Management™. I’ve had a belly full and it’s way past time to pull the brakes on this runaway obfuscation train.
Hidden Lies of the Indoctrinated Wildland Fire Fighter, by Woodsman(all rights reserved)
1. The fire shelter will save you as a last resort.
It will do no such thing! The folly of the fire shelter will dull your senses to reality and contribute to questionable risk tolerance either on the conscious or subconscious level, leading to excess exposure to harm. Besides, that bitch weighs a ton!
2. Extra hot news flash: IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR WILDLAND FIRE FIGHTERS TO FOLLOW THE TEN STANDARD ORDERS.
Read it as many times as you need. The primary barrier to your understanding of the previous proclamation is your pervasive foundational indoctrination at all levels of your training. You just can’t believe it, you say? Step outside the confines of the cage you have been placed in and take a look around. Don’t be afraid, just do it!
The Ten Standard Orders are designed to shield management from responsibility for anything and everything that occurs on the fire. You cannot follow any of them at all times. Put your thinking cap on. You got this.
RTS said in response to Gary:
“And so, what is wrong with TEACHING EVERYONE TO KNOW AND FOLLOW THE 10 AND 18 AT ALL TIMES ON THE FIRELINE AS THE ANSWER TO EVERY QUESTION ABOUT WF SAFETY”
What is wrong with it? What’s wrong with it is it’s a fundamental impossibility, that’s what. Teach them all you want, wildland fire fighters cannot follow them no matter what you say. You can quote until the cows come home; you can cite all the ‘research’ you want, but you cannot make what’s impossible possible.
The section in the quote that says, “the answer to every question about wf safety” is particularly apropos because this is in fact the actual intent of the ten orders – a checklist for management following tragedy fires. They check off each violation when they ask themselves “what is the answer to every question.” It’s a very efficient process to assign blame.
Its intent is to shield management from responsibility NOT to protect fire fighters from harm while engaged on a wildfire. Risk must be managed but cannot be eliminated while suppressing wildfires. By mindlessly regurgitating the 10 orders and forcing personnel to memorize them, you are reducing the chance of identifying the actual causal factors follow a tragedy on a wildfire because you will stop looking for them – you have checked all the boxes already and your mind is made up!
RTS also said in response to Gary:
“There has NEVER been a wildfire where a WFF has followed all The WFF Rules and ended up unexpectedly burned over,deployed a fire shelter, and/or died. NEVER!”
My reply:
THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A WILDFIRE WHERE A WFF HAS FOLLOWED ALL THE WFF RULES –full stop!
No more words need to be said in response to this statement. The rest of your scenario cannot be linked since no one can follow all of the orders all of the time.
RTS also said in response to Gary:
“Read the Investigative Reports and you won’t find one where they followed all The WFF Rules.”
If I have explained myself coherently, this one should answer itself. No? OK. Management uses the standard orders to place the blame on fire fighters instead of itself following a tragedy fire. That’s their primary purpose so of course you will not find an Investigative Report with no violations of the rules. See how that works? It’s a superb plan…for shielding management from liability!
RTS also said in response to Gary:
“Gary,
And one more thing the reason that you don’t think that world ever existed in the first place is because you were not in it and/or could not relate to it and anyone that was.”
Incorrect. Gary WAS in the world that never existed. It was the same world you were in as well. It just didn’t exist like you thought it did.
Gary put the pieces of the puzzle together and incidentally is responsible for me putting them together too. (shout-out to the Jackhammer!) I’ve got news for you, we are not the only ones that have figured this out.
We have all been lied to, you included. Years and years of standard orders memorization and regurgitation have programmed us to believe one of the greatest lies in wildland fire fighting! The 10 & 18 are showcased as the means to zero risk tolerance which is impossible. None of the 10 standard orders can be followed at all times.
Incorporation of achievable rules of engagement in wildfire suppression is paramount. Failure in this regard means fire fighters will never learn of the actual causal factor after a tragedy fire because after identification of the violations, they will stop looking. This plays right into the desires of management because they cannot have blame placed upon them – it’s the fire fighters that ‘broke the rules!”
Woodsman
Hear Ye, Hear Ye, Hear Ye!! dang it…Bob, what did you do to my PC? kidding…
Good Luck and God bless because that’s all ya got left—–
LCES is a LIE
Bob,
I am interpreting your reply to mean you don’t believe what I’m saying, so you wished me good luck. (I may be wrong about what you are saying) The 10 standard orders are meaningful & important but are impossible to follow all of them at all times while being engaged fighting fire.
Fire Order #8: Give clear instructions and ensure they are understood.
If I give another instructions there is always a chance it will be misunderstood. So we are supposed to ask it to be repeated back so we can determine if it was understood correctly. I can never be 100% sure that it was understood correctly & here’s why. If it is known there is a possibility of instructions to be misunderstood going from person A to person B, how can the 1st person be 100% sure it was understood if the very same possibility exists for it to be misunderstood coming back?
Most of the orders are impossible to follow at the same time due to the dynamic changing attributes of wildfire – they are not static. When an observation is made it’s immediately classified as past information and cannot be current.
Woodsman
>> Fire Order #8: Give clear instructions and ensure they are understood.
With regards to Yarnell… we have a CLEAR and perfectly understandable radio RECORDING of a bona-fide Air Attack ( Rory Collins ) giving “clear instructions” to his Lead Plane ( Bravo 33 / Thomas French ) at exactly 3:50 PM on June 30, 2013.
We also HEAR Air Attack Rory Collins “ensuring they are understood” and receiving complete and total ‘echo acknowledgement’ of the ‘instructions’ back from Thomas French.
It didn’t make a shit of difference.
Thomas French ended up just ignoring those “clear instructions”, and doing what HE wanted to do, instead.
So much for “Fire Order #8”.
And the BRH were planning to burn out around themselves, if needed as a SZ.
Good for you Wise Woodsman
If you truly believe that WOODSMAN then you better find a job in a Ice-cream Parlor. You do not understand Supervision you do not understand Safety.
Are you mentally challenged with rule # 8??????
Then you need to go back and study 80 hours of Supervision.
If you can not trust your employees to follow your instructions you have lost your supervisor control. Or you should have fired a few of those who cant follow instructions.
#8 is the most simple rule of them all—-IF YOU ARE A WELL QUALIFIED SUPERVISOR—Clear instructions are your responsibility and no one else.
In a stress situation a calm Supervisor with a clear head will maintain control of their men at all times.
I know you have that trait and I am sure you have used it on many occasions.
That is why you are a supervisor.
When Have you given clear instructions and they were not understood?
What happened in that situation?
Were your instructions clear?
WTKTT a poor example. French became the AA
Instructions/////Are not orders they are plans to Carrie out. Air Attack is dynamic and changes with the Fire, weather and the Ground requests not to mention the availability of air craft and its size.
Collins turned the job over to French and left the FIRE.
Yes you can fight fire and follow the 10 standard orders at all times.
You can refuse an assignment because it violates one or more orders.
You can be held liable or at least responsible for failing to follow one or more orders. You chose not to you carry the responsibility as every supervisor dose.
When you are rated at the end of a fire or your shift you are rated on your performance and the use of the 10 are you not? Most plans state to follow them and cover them at briefings. Until they are removed as safety rules you follow them or you are held responsible for not following them .
HILL BILLY OR OLD THEY ARE STILL THE RULES AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN.
Good luck and god bless your gona need it.
To say you cant fight fire and use them is a cop out and Pure BS.
If this is true that Supervisors shoulder all the responsibility, then why a movie making Marsh and Steed out as big heroes? What am I missing in my way of thinking.
Yes A Hot Shot Crew is Lead by their Supervisors They are responsible for the safety.
Each individual is also trained to be responsible for their safety..
New crew members and crewman are broke into squads of 5
The Squad boss is the key supervisor to look after and train new members. The crew boss directs each squad and the superintendent directs the entire crew.
Again Every one is trained that it is their responsibility to follow safety practices.
And no they are not heroes they failed their crew and them selves.
We have all identified the reasons why.
Reply to Bob Powers post on August 3, 2016 at 7:42 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> When you are rated at the end of a fire or your shift you
>> are rated on your performance and the use of
>> the 10 are you not?
Rated?…. at the end of your shift?…. by WHO?
Are you implying that everyone who works these fires is SUPPOSED to be ‘rated’ and their performance ‘evaluated’ each and every time?
I’m totally in FAVOR of such a thing… but there isn’t much evidence that it actually happens on a regular basis… unless you were an actual ‘Trainee’ on that fire and you have to chase someone down afterwards to ‘sign’ you little ‘Taskbook’ and whatnot.
Can you clarify what you meant by your statement?
That’s Mandatory on each and every fire by immediate supervisors.
Some time the Supervisors change so there is a rating for each shift.
they are turned in to the records section and the rater and rated get a copy.
That’s done when you sit down to sign of the time reports.
I do not remember the form number but it is a standard form.
Followup… we all know that sometimes crews get ‘letters’ sent back to their home units when they are ‘demobbed’… usually from the ‘IC’… and that sometimes those letters can be ‘bad’… or just ‘bolier plate’ sort of ‘thank you… good job’ letters.
I guess what I was asking about was the part of your statement that suggested units are ‘rated’ and or ‘evaluated’ for performance following each and every SHIFT.
Again… I’m all for that… but I didn’t know that was something that might be happening ‘out there’.
Actual ratings are given after each shift and at the end of the Fire assignment.
There is a Federal Form cant remember the Number that is used.
Each Supervisor that you work for rates your performance over the length of you assignment.
If you have a task book for training they fill that out.
They did not use task books during my years. it was the performance rating as a trainee by the person you were assigned to.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
August 3, 2016 at 6:21 pm
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Actual ratings are given after each shift
>> and at the end of the Fire assignment.
>>
>> There is a Federal Form cant remember
>> the Number that is used.
>>
>> Each Supervisor that you work for rates your
>> performance over the length of you assignment.
Okay… so where the hell are these ‘rating forms’ for the organization called ‘Granite Mountain’?
ADOSH requested ALL RECORDS pertaining to Granite Mountain from the City of Prescott.
There is nothing like that in anything that the City of Prescott then ‘delivered’ to ADOSH.
Just ‘individual training records’ for each of the crewmembers.
They would be under the personnel records that can not be openly released they are different than training records.
I was surprised that they released Marshes performance evaluation that was posted here.
That is normally private and the City could have been sued for such a release.
Evaluations, letters of reprimand performance ratings and things like the Drugs and Alcohol problems that Marsh had are not available to the public under strict laws.
The Federal Government Dose not and will not release Employee personnel folders to the general public.
Training records are a different matter.
They have to be sent and used at different levels to provide documentation for Fire Qualifications they are open documents used to justify Red Card Ratings
Even ADOSH was not allowed to have the Personnel records of employees.
That dose not include getting statements from current and past Supervisors on a witness stand or through a sequester of a witness, But not the documents them selves.
WTKTT,
Individual and Crew Performance Appraisals are only RECOMMENDED, while SOME Home Units require them
Here is a link for a Crew Rating, ICS form WF 224 (1/14).
It is interesting to note the ‘2014’ date because you will see many of the YH Fire issues (leadership, risk management, tactics, safety) identified by the YHF SAIT AND ADOSH, addressed in the ‘CREW PERFORMANCE RATING FORM KEY AND INSTRUCTIONS’ verbiage.
Likely NOT a coincidence.
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/products/ics-forms/ics_224_wf.pdf
As far as public access to these ‘records’ goes, it depends on what the repository Government entity considers as ‘exempt’ and not to be released.
Here is a link to the INDIVIDUAL ‘INCIDENT PERSONNEL PERFORMANCE RATING’ ICS 225 WF (1/14)
Note the difference in the 2 forms (Individual and Crew) with the amount of information addressed,even though a 2014 edition.
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/products/ics-forms/ics_225_wf.pdf
Bob said:
“If you truly believe that WOODSMAN then you better find a job in a Ice-cream Parlor. You do not understand Supervision you do not understand Safety.
Are you mentally challenged with rule # 8??????
Then you need to go back and study 80 hours of Supervision.”
Take your beef up with Dr, Ted Putnam, the country’s foremost wildland fire fatality investigator, Bob. These concepts are straight out of his extensive research and findings.
Bob said:
“To say you cant fight fire and use them is a cop out and Pure BS.”
Again, explain it Putnam, Bob. The rules of engagement need to be revised into something achievable which also ensures management has skin in the game and responsibility for safety as well as fireline resources. The way the system is set up currently, (& has been for a long time) primarily the violations of the 10 are either identified (past investigations) or implied (current investigations) which do not have a end product of true lessons learned that will saves lives. The current system protects management from liability.
Don’t worry Bob, I’ll be damn sure to keep those I’m responsible for out of harms way because that’s my number 1 priority. I’m genetically predisposed to standing up to management. I used to love doing just that, now I just like it but that part of me will never go away.
I know now, Bob, the full extent of the lies I have been told by management. Nobody will receive injuries or die on an incident where I am in charge of their well-being if it is remotely possible that I can prevent it. No one. Then, I promise you, I’m going fishing. It will up to the next generation to take the driptorch. There will be NO double or triple dipping from me because for one thing, I’ll have lost my edge by then.
Thanks Bob. I knew you would react this way and it’s OK by me. I hope your health stays good & you have great fishing!
Woodsman
Well I have set back and thought about this not really.
First Ted Putnam—-After his conclusions on the 10 what 15years ago or more. His conclusions were not accepted in R4 and not accepted in Washington.
I have said I disagree with his theory severial time and he was debated on it by some professionals at the Training center in Boise.
AS you can note with a little research none I repeat NONE of his thoughts or analyses has been implemented into FIRE FIGHTER SAFETY.
Second
Back to the next subject the 10 are only Guidelines.
The 18 are Guidelines
The 10 are orders for a reason.
Prior to 1957 all the 10 were actually mixed and seperiate in Fire training they were once guide lines in each portion of fire training.
After 1957 they were separated and distinguished as
The Ten Standard ORDERS for a very distinct reason.
This is Similar to the condensed safety addition known as the
LCES that is a basic part of the Orders.
If there is something as dynamic and new that could replace them it would have happened by now. They are as realistic today as yesterday.
I ask you about basic supervision because that is what # 8 is not only in fire but in day to day life. That is where TED failed because he got to deep into his Phycology and deep thoughts that he lost tract of reality with each of the 10 that he questioned.
In the end yes you can fight fire aggressively and provide for safety first. For every Order fire fighters have paid with their Lives…..
Before and after 1957.
To show you and all the newbies to come what the rules of engagement are.
When you declare them guide lines you lesson their seriousness
or call them OLD and HILLBILLY.
My final point if that is how Granit Mountain trained and fought fire.
Or made bad decisions with good out comes by going around the proven Safety Orders then that should be a true lesson learned.
All those still out there using the 10 as absolute orders would also have a serious concern about your conclusion.
TED PUTNAM is not a highly thought of individual with in his own Smoke Jumper Ranks nor in R4 His radical analyses did not float or stick except with those that do not believe in the 10 and 18.
CHECK IT OUT
Good Luck and God Bless—————
what I learned from these fire follies-
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/c5/6d/c8/c56dc8456c8edf05d57394dfbeef98ab.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/35/90/b8/3590b87159c2ecacb17db3016290de49.jpg
http://libertyupward.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Robert-LeFevre-disease-cure-gov.jpg
http : //inktank.fi/wp-content/uploads /2015/02/ LeonardNimoyquotes2-370×200.jpg
“In critical moments, men sometimes see exactly what they wish to see.” – Star Trek, season 3, episode 9 (“The Tholian Web,” 1968)
“When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” – Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, 1991
“Live long and prosper.” – First spoken in Star Trek, season 2, episode 1 (“Amok Time,” 1968)
—————————-
I remember it like it just happened but Spock at Movieland Wax Museum in the 70’s spooked me serious with those ears…In 2005 Spock and the crew were sold to a fan for $34,000 and I remember being a little white girl running up to Sanford (the waxed Sanford thinking it was the “real” man of Sanford and Sons) saying “hello” like I was Shirley Temple in her type voice and a little more I said but would have to say in person but this man (waxed man) did not reply and I walked away saying “how rude”…the good ol days…Josh should remember those days…Dan Tana’s…oh and if any of you still screw up the spock hand gesture…I have to be focused to do ANYTHING right…otherwise I about screw up everything in my life if off focus—I have to publicly thank two ladies I hiked with—I usually handle my health on my own and I took Holly Neill and Fernanda Santo’s advice and I have been working with traditional medicine to figure out my tummy mess:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cfCq0aQTHT8/UBqlUhrxGRI/AAAAAAAACGI/8182EH-CDlI/s1600/Some+Causes+Of+Bloated+Stomach.jpg
so tired of the swelling mess…and I am week by week one step closer to clarity and it reminds me of the YHF…nothing happens FAST in this FAST pace world. huh…besides fast cars and women 🙂
and about politics—
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/2f/95/21/2f9521f2368d084cb217912485ea141c.jpg
good night.
oh I got a picture of Sonny and his bucket list and maybe he will share some of it here…mine is obtaining all the foias even with their scare tactics lately…I am going to have your much redacted information just a matter of time…the ball is moving…and they are finally reaching me this week…
Yes…the Woodsman is correct in everything he said.
Wacked Out Woodsman is correct in SOME of the things he said.
Nah – you’re wrong Woodsman.
It’s way outside anything I actually know about, but if it were me out there:
1 Weather conditions, forecast- Is it gonna rain? No? Then I’m expecting Sun
2 Know the fire? – It’s burning away over there somewhere, Big Dog is eating
3. Actions based on fire behavior- Actions? None, cos we is sitting here in acres of black
4. Safety zone, escape routes- Yep sitting here in acres of black
5. Post lookouts – Danger? Uh, guys keep an eye out for things falling from the sky cos here in the black, there’s nuthin’ for miles. Maybe some lightening later? HEY! put that chainsaw down yer gonna hurt someone!
6. Be Alert, calm, decisive – We’re alert here in acres of black, having a cup-o-joe, perfectly calm, soaking up the Sun
7. Comms – Boss – we’re here in the black and staying here. New assignment? No thanks, we’re staying safe.
8. Clear instructions – Everybody understand? We’re staying here in the black till it all blows over.
9 Control your forces – For pities sake – put that fecking chainsaw down! We’re not doing anything but sitting this one out!
10 Fight Aggressively, safety provided for – Yep we’re safe in acres of black… and er well…I can hardly see the fire from here, how do we fight that thing aggressively at this distance? If we do that…well we won’t be safe anymore
Obviously before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, that was firmly tongue in cheek.
To fight fire aggressively (hand to hand) there obviously must be a compromise of safety and a level of risk associated with it (however small) and that’s where the Management cop-out comes. in
I totally respect anyone who even wants to fight fires.. Fires don’t care about or respect anything or anyone,
All you can do is reduce the risk and provide safety in the moment, hour, and shift.
Fire will always have risk no matter how small. Mitigating that risk is every ones responsibility.—- Very few if any accidents are not preventable.——-
They are 10 rules not a freeking book. They have kept countless Fire Fighters safe for 60 years. They are individual and a whole they change with location and the fire.
Some are at rest while others are at work a ever changing situation.
When your not in the black then you need to cover your decisions with the rules.
IT AINT NUCLEAR SCIENCE.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-serious-accident-investigation-report-supporting-documentation/
For newbies..this has akot of good Information in its links
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p78do502dflii7b/AAC1KP5uT7i-P2Qba8-l22_ta/ScottNorrisPhotoAndText.pdf?dl=0
if I could ask Karen Norris- I would ask her is this photo the original unedited photo she provided to the SAIT? I also would ask SAIT- when I hiked OSHA and some others -one of their goals was to physically match up photos to real time terrain; did the SAIT do that for all photos provided to them for 6-30-13 or was their narrative already set and they matched the photos that best met that narrative need?
A fellow WFF Supervisor sent this, so including it here because it is very relevant to the Human Factors in WF fatalities, and a story similar to the YH Fire and likely many other fatal wildland fires.
http://ehstoday.com/safety-leadership-conference-2015/slc-2015-lessons-about-risk-plane-crash-survivor
SLC 2015: Lessons About Risk from a Plane Crash Survivor
Oct 30, 2015 Laura Putre, Staff Writer, IndustryWeek
Through tragedy, Tom Wilson, a construction company CFO, learned that identifying risks is not enough–you must have the courage to take action.
Seven years ago, amid wild winds and unrelenting fog, Tom Wilson, the CFO of a large construction company in Edmonton, Alberta, climbed on a small plane with six other passengers. Some were his co-workers. He felt skeptical about the trip because the visibility was so low and they were to fly over the Vancouver mountains. Everyone on the plane seemed nervous, and the pilot even commented on the precariousness of the situation, offering to let anyone off the plane who felt uncomfortable about low-level flying.
No one asked to leave, the plane took off—and minutes later, Wilson heard a grinding sound and found himself in the trees, the plane burnt up around him. Everyone else on that plane was dead. “Not one person on that flight screamed anything—it was over that fast,” Wilson said.
Wilson publicly speaks about the crash, he says, as a way of dealing with grief and survivor’s guilt. He also hopes that his talk might inspire others to speak up in potentially hazardous situations and in the process prevent injuries and death.
The story of Wilson’s crash, his survival, and what he learned about safety and risk and bravery and courage resonated with the audience of safety managers this week at the Safety Leadership Conference in Greenville, S.C. Wilson gave the conference’s final keynote speech, “Sole Survivor: Moments of Impact.”
Safely Leadership Conference: Complete coverage of the 2015 Safety Leadership Conference
As he was recovering from the crash in the burn ward, Wilson had a lot of time to contemplate why he didn’t speak up. “I learned the difference between bravery and courage,” he told the hushed crowd. “Bravery is putting yourself physically at risk. We celebrate bravery. Courage is what we do internally when we recognize something is wrong. We may not take a physical risk, but we still take a risk.”
Wilson said he didn’t speak up because, ironically, he didn’t want to be perceived as cowardly. “It would have been courageous for me to speak up,” he said. “I believe every one of us was looking for someone to be courageous.” Because none in the group, though they might be quick to be brave, understood the importance of courage, “ultimately it cost seven people their lives.”
Wilson said he believes the pilot recognized the hazard of flying that day, but he could not properly assess the risk because he had been flying so long, he had a high risk tolerance.
“Risk tolerance is not hazard recognition,” Wilson said. “Most companies do an outstanding job of hazard recognition. We use all kinds of administrative controls to identify the hazards … but well over 50% of the injuries that take place in our workforce are from hazards we’ve already identified.”
The crash situation–from a pilot too willing to take on risk (the flight company had met with him three times to discuss concerns with his decision making) to passengers’ worries about inconveniencing co-workers with a cancelled flight–checked off pretty much all the boxes for high risk tolerance, Wilson said.
“Beliefs, combined with competitive pressures and the difficulty of enforcement, lead to situations where some pilots and operators are willing to take risk by flying in marginal weather conditions,” he said. “Left unchecked, these practices become accepted norms and are adopted by new pilots.”
As part of his outreach work now, Wilson reviews all workplace accident reports in Alberta. Last year, 186 people there were killed in workplace accidents. “Ninety-nine percent could have been prevented” if the company and its workers had given recognized hazards the gravity they deserved.
“What haunts me the most is I didn’t speak up,” he concluded.
“BRAVERY IS PUTTING YOURSELF PHYSICALLY AT RISK. WE CELEBRATE BRAVERY. COURAGE IS WHAT WE DO INTERNALLY WHEN WE RECOGNIZE SOMETHING IS WRONG. WE MAY NOT TAKE A PHYSICAL RISK, BUT WE STILL TAKE A RISK.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Wilson said he did not speak up BECAUSE, ironically, HE DID NOT WANT TO BE PERCEIVED AS COWARDLY.
It is very likely, that SEVERAL of the GMHS recognized that something was wrong and yet they still took the risk to leave their Safety Zone at the worst possible time. Additionally, of course, NOBODY wanted to be perceived as a coward, because after all, everyone else was okay with it.
THE PILOT RECOGNIZED THE HAZARD OF FLYING THAT DAY, BUT HE COULD NOT PROPERLY ASSES THE RISK BECAUSE HE HAD BEEN FLYING SO LONG, HE HAD A HIGH RISK TOLERANCE. RISK TOLERANCE IS NOT HAZARD RECOGNITION.
“BELIEFS, COMBINED WITH COMPETITIVE PRESSURES AND THE DIFFICULTY OF ENFORCEMENT, LEAD TO SITUATIONS WHERE SOME PILOTS AND OPERATORS ARE WILLING TO TAKE RISK BY FLYING IN MARGINAL WEATHER CONDITIONS. … LEFT UNCHECKED, THESE PRACTICES BECOME ACCEPTED NORMS AND ARE ADOPTED BY NEW PILOTS.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
All you have to do is substitute GMHS for “pilots and operators” and GMHS Rookies for “new pilots;” and “travelling through the unburned into chutes and chimneys and bowls choked with brush at the worst possible time for “flying in marginal weather conditions.”
“WHAT HAUNTS ME THE MOST IS I DID NOT SPEAK UP,” he concluded. (EMPHASIS ADDED)
All these men are dead because the leaders did not really listen to the concerns of those that did speak up and even worse, they did nothing about it.
When Eric marsh said”thats right where I want it” referring to a retardant drop by AA near time of deployment –what were the circumstances?
RTS,
Thanks for your focus on human factors. I appreciate the formal approach, although for the purposes of this blog, I’m with Woodchuck in taking a more intuitive approach. I’d like your assessment of some thoughts I’ve been having as a result of recent discussions
The factors you bring up here were cited in the South Mountain Fire human factors discussion. In that case, three groups from different cultures were thrown together in an ominous but not yet critically dangerous situation. Within the Prineville IHC subgroup, some were women, which further complicated things (IMHO). Everyone had the honor of their cultures (helitacks, smokejumpers, hotshots, women) to uphold. None wanted to be the first to acknowledge the changing conditions and their gut feelings of danger. They also couldn’t see anything in the Gambel’s Oak and PJ, which didn’t help. In the twenty year anniversary documentary, several recalled their feelings of dread and their inability to articulate them as early as they should have.
As you say, these factors were almost certainly at play within the the GM IHC. After listening to you WLFF types, I’ve become aware of other forces that may also have complicated this already fraught situation.
Coming into this blog months ago, I would have assumed that there was an entirely healthy and harmless rivalry between Type 1 units, as well as between IHCs. This would manifest as lighthearted ribbing, put-downs of the logo designs, and bets, even competition on which techniques are faster and better. We’ve witnessed some of that here. I never suspected that there is a hierarchy of IHCs based on length of history, fame of alumni, security of funding and other criteria. It makes sense; these kinds of distinctions are everywhere. The janitors at Harvard had more prestige than the ones at MIT, MIT paid better, but the prestige was worth the hit.
With the recent discussion of Scott Norris’s three years of training on the prestigious Payson IHC, and the high turnover on GM, I can imagine that many on the GM crew deferred to him in a perfectly natural way. With Marsh absent or distracted through the first part of the season, Scott may have drawn many followers among the crew, not by lobbying for it, but by his obvious quality.
Marsh must have seen that as a threat, not just because they had different management styles, and not just because Scott had a better HS pedigree. Marsh had already been passed up for promotion because of his temperament. Marsh was not a natural leader, but he did help build the organization and felt he was owed the promotions that would keep him employed until he retired. With Scott able to take over as supe, and Steed able to take Willis’s place, that natural progression was now threatened. Rather than recognizing the advantages of emulating the best qualities of his experienced new crew members, he may have doubled down on his bullying, coercive style. Scott, being more concerned about group cohesion, may then have backed down rather than watch Marsh fly completely off the handle. My guess is Scott was no threat and just wanted to do his time until he could bail from the obviously dysfunctional GM IHC into structural, so he laid lower than he should have for his own safety. Scott’s potential could thus have been neutralized by internal group dynamics.
Correction: South Canyon Fire. I need a vacation!
Muzzy,
Very insightful, indeed. There has to be more to your input than just being intuitive. You have something else in your background. Either that or you are one smart woman.
Regarding the Prineville IHC ‘subgroups’, the women were considered as valuable and on an even keel with everyone else. In fact, they were in much better shape than the guys, except for the one that Mackey went back for. So, not so certain on them complicating things. I think that everyone had the honor of their cultures (helitacks, smokejumpers, hotshots, women) to uphold with some exceptions.
One of the main ones was the alleged ‘can do attitude’ referred to in the SAIR. They compleely spun this one. This was not a positive thing, but instead more like an antagonistic rivalry between the Leapers and the Hot Shots, as in we are Smokejumpers and we CAN DO more and/or better than you Hot Shots.
In the original, UNPUBLISHED SAIR, there were numerous blacked out redactions in many of the Witness statements regarding just that. Several had expressed their gut feelings and commented to each other and on up the chain of command that they ‘did not feel comfortable in there, what are we doing in here, why are we still here,’ etc. They couldn’t see anything in the Gambel’s Oak and PJ, because they had a shitty Lookout in a shitty location. In the twenty year anniversary documentary, several recalled their feelings of dread and their inability to articulate them as early as they should have. But they did, nobody in any supervisory capacity really listened.
https://higherlogicdownload.s3-external-1.amazonaws.com/WILDFIRELESSONS/S_Canyon_AIReport_1994.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJH5D4I4FWRALBOUA&Expires=1470168138&Signature=3Gb0B8hhpS3DOHY%2FHIe0GCcF9PY%3D
The above link is the PUBLISHED version of the SAIR. Please note almost all of the colored photos with WFF’s in them have been AIR-BRUSHED out of the picture.
You also posted: “Coming into this blog months ago, I would have assumed that there was an entirely healthy and harmless rivalry between Type 1 units, as well as between IHCs.”
There is and was ‘an entirely healthy and harmless rivalry between … between IHCs’. But most of us did NOT trust Marsh, Steed yes, but NOT Marsh. And when it was all over, GMHS stories flowed of everyone’s experiences and mistrust and more.
You also posted: “With Scott able to take over as supe, and Steed able to take Willis’s place, that natural progression was now threatened.”
Steed was the one in line to be the next GMHS Superintendent, not Norris. Norris did not have the time in grade or experience and more.
I’m not discounting any of the the ‘theories’ coming onto the table here… but just thought I would point out that I believe Jesse Steed was a LOOONG way from ever being considered ‘ready’ to ascend to the position of ‘Wildland Division Chief’… and that Eric Marsh himself KNEW that… and so could not possibly have felt ‘threatened’ by Steed ( or Norris, for that matter ) in THAT regard.
WTKTT,
I would not elevate my imagineering to the level of “theory.” More like random musings. They stem only from what you and RTS have been discussing the past few days, and, oddly, the voice of Bob Powers as he laid out a 20/20 hindsight version of what might have worked at Yarnell if they had had the equipment and a little sanity. In his answer, I heard the confidence that Gary talked about, and the humility that Smokey307 talked about.
Then I thought about this guy who was successful at the Stanford or Yale of hotshot crews coming to the City college of hotshots. Nothing against either one, but the city college guys will instantly know the difference. The confidence of a solid foundation, the humility of knowing exactly what he knows and what he doesn’t, and a feeling that he will command respect in any circle of WLFFs.
OTOH, from what I’ve gathered, GM had a bit of a chip on their shoulders because of their origin, their relatively short history, their precarious funding, among others. In spite of their motto, it seems as though they were worried they weren’t really there yet. Deserved or not, this feeling can affect behavior negatively. The risky competitiveness and machismo I’ve heard about comes to mind.
When anyone enters a new group, as Robert has pointed out, things go wonky, no matter what. But when there’s lots of turnover, and then a guy comes in who knows his way is better, but is humble and subordinate, and lots of his fellows want to know all about how Payson was run, and he has three years of experience, this has got to be disruptive. Scott wasn’t the only one, I’m using him as an example, I suppose. Warneke may have had a different but equally disruptive effect, same with others. Add to that, they were early in the fire year, and overhead was in and out, ugh. What a mess. Then they entered the cluster that was the YHF.
Woodsman talked about the danger of removing the supe to DIVS. Thus was even worse because of the instability in the home unit.
The most important data against this musing is that they all stayed together in the end. That was remarkable in any event, but with the underlying tensions I’m imagining, unbelievable. Whatever tensions or imbalances there might have been, their loyalty to each other overcame.
Muzzy,
You posted: “Woodsman talked about the danger of removing the supe to DIVS.”
I think the main reason that was an issue in the YH Fire case was because Marsh could not / would not let go of the Crew for Steed to to his job.
Additionally, the GMHS did all their communication back and forth to Marsh and Steed on Crew Net, instead of on Tactical. Way too informal and cavalier, typical of the GMHS.
In the morning and early afternoon hours, Marsh was off doing his DIVS thing. But later in the day as things heated up and more fire behavior and more issues began to occur, then the stress began to kick in and WUI issues began to occur, Marsh, like others in very stressful situations, resort to what they are most familiar with.
In and of itself, many WFF supervisors are able to safely and successfully accomplish those other tasks and their Crew does fine. However, there have been ctwo notable instances where that was not the case, namely the New York Peak Fire (NV-BLM Elko) and the Indians Fire (CA-LPF).
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on August 2, 2016 at 6:27 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I think the main reason that was an issue
>> in the YH Fire case was because Marsh
>> could not / would not let go of the Crew
>> for Steed to to his job.
And from now until eternity… there will ALWAYS be at least one valid radio capture from that day which basically PROVES that is what was happening.
It came at 4:13:30 PM, when that still-unknown person called DIRECTLY to ‘Granite Mountain’ ( and NOT ‘Division Alpha’ ) asking what their ‘status’ was…
…and DIVSA Eric Marsh didn’t even give Jesse Steed time to answer that caller.
He took it upon himself to answer that radio call, even though it was NOT directed at HIM at all.
From Panebaker AFUE Air-Study video
20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP.MOV
————————————————
+0:41 ( 1613.30 / 4:13.30 PM )
( Caller is still Unknown ): Granite Mountun’ ( Five? Fire? )… Wuz yo stay-tus rat now?
+0:54 ( 1613.43 / 4:13.43 PM )
( DIVSA – Eric Marsh ): Well the guys… uh… Granite… is makin’ their way out the exact escape route from this mornin’… an’ it heads… ah… (pause) SOUTH. (slight pause) mid-slope, cuttin’ over.
—————————————–
I don’t think this has ever been mentioned before… but the PROOF that Eric Marsh himself KNEW that he was ‘stepping in’ on a radio call that wasn’t meant for him comes from what HE, himself, says in response.
He uses the word ‘Granite’, himself, to clarify to the caller that he is NOT ( technically ) ‘Granite Mountain’… ( at that moment )… but he IS choosing to answer the caller ‘on their BEHALF’.
Reply to Muzzy post on August 2, 2016 at 4:58 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> I would not elevate my imagineering to the level
>> of “theory.” More like random musings.
Muse away.
You have an amazing ‘grasp’ of the entire situation at this point, and an equally amazing ability to express yourself… and you have every right to ‘imagineer’ or ‘muse’ about these still-unknown issues with regards to this National Tragedy.
And I really do “hear what you are saying”.
The 2013 season for Granite Mountain got off to a BAD start ( They almost had to just punt and drop back to a Type 2 team ). They were short-handed right up until just before they had to ‘certify’… and ended up with far too many inexperienced FFs on the roster, and ( perhaps ) more ‘new hires’ ( like Norris and Deford, etc. ) than either Darrell Willis or Eric Marsh would have liked.
And then they had to even just ‘borrow’ a Prescott Structural FF ( Tom Cooley ) at the last minute to function as ‘Captain’ to even get ‘certified’ and ‘out the door’ for the 2013 season.
And then things just got worse.
They lost Renan Packer to a ‘seizure’ at the Thompson Ridge fire, and then Brandon Bunch left the crew shortly after that. They had to ‘rearrange’ the ‘Squads’ and the ‘Battle Buddies’… which, itself, is also very ‘disruptive’.
When Marsh returned to being ‘Superintendent’ after Thompson Ridge and just before Doce… they lost Cooley back to Prescott Fire Department. They did the Doce fire ‘short’ a man and then the only reason they got back to a full crew after Doce was by adding John Percin Jr. to the mix… who had never even been on a fire.
West Spruce was John Percin’s FIRST fire, June 28, 2013.
Mouth Josh was his second ( and he got heat stroke, that day BEFORE Yarnell, but they let him stay on the roster anyway or they wouldn’t have had a full crew for Yarnell ).
Yarnell was John Percin’s THIRD ( and last ) fire.
They were basically a ‘rolling train wreck’ that 2013 season… from the moment it started until the day they all died ( save one ).
They were ‘out of replacements’ on the roster and if any of the ‘rookies’ bailed or there were injuries… they would be ‘out of the ballgame’ at the very time Willis had said the City Council was ‘watching them’ and just looking for a reason to deep-six the whole thing.
And on top of everything else… RTS has been known to say that there was (quote) “A LOT of animosity between Steed and Marsh”… but he still refuses to say how he knows that or exactly what he is referring to.
And the 2013 season wasn’t even half-over yet.
So yea… there MUST have been a lot of ‘weird dynamics’ going on as they just tried to “stay in the ball game” that 2013 season and not have to drop back to a Type 2.
But to be honest… I don’t think the presence of Scott Norris or Dustin Deford as ‘first year’ ( but already veterans ) rookies with GM was ADDING to the problems.
Given everything else that was happening… I think both Steed and Marsh were, all things considered, GLAD they were both ‘on the team’ and helping to teach the REAL ‘rookies’.
It is Eric Marsh himself that remains the real ‘enigma’.
As you said… it seems like no matter how hard they all tried… there was some kind of ‘accomplishment’ hole on Eric Marsh’s agenda that just couldn’t be filled.
And that is exactly the way Granite Mountain Hotshot Brandon Bunch described the ACTUAL situation when he became one of author Kyle Dickman’s primary ‘sources’ for his book “On the Burning Edge”.
From Kyle Dickman’s book…
——————————————————————–
Brandon Bunch had been with Granite Mountain since 2010, the crew’s second year as hotshots.
Eric Marsh remained an enigma to him.
Bunch never felt he had a good read on his superintendent, but then, few people who worked with him did. One former colleague called him “an onion with layers he doesn’t let most people see”.
The more seasons Bunch worked for Granite Mountain, the more he felt that under Marsh’s command, the hotshots were ALWAYS having to PROVE themselves.
——————————————————————–
Somehow… someway… ( and regardless of any influences from above that I DO believe were also in place on June 30, 2013 )… Eric Marsh simply “Esse Quam Videried” those men right into their graves.
All things considered… ‘Granite Mountain’ really SHOULD have just ‘dropped back to at Type 2’ for the 2013 season.
And I wish they had.
WTKTT,
Wildland Fire Crew Cohesion research
Crew Cohesion, Wildland Fire Transition, and Fatalities by Dr. Jon Driessen, MTDC (2002)
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/lessons/documents/Crew_Cohesion/pdf02512809.pdf
Two Entrapment Avoidance Projects: Studying
Crew Cohesion as a Social Human Factor (2005)
Jon Driessen, Lisa Outka-Perkins, Leslie Anderson
http://www.iawfonline.org/summit/2005%20Presentations/2005_pdf/Driessen%20et%20al.pdf
“Interviews so far show that experienced leaders of fire crews don’t see poor crew cohesion as a direct cause of entrapment. Rather, crewleaders saw good crew cohesion as a latent preventative factor that reduced the chances of an entrapment.”
Isn’t he just saying the same thing here?
Willis should have seen to it. Instead, they were called in on their day off against the recommendation of the SWCC, with a below average energy level at the beginning of the shift with the worst overhead team imaginable. So many nodes of blame, so few actual facts.
RTS,
RE: “You have something else in your background.”
I have spent the preponderance of my life observing the silverback in the wilds of academia. Similar to WLFF, less noise, more sociopathy, smaller fires, but more toxic. Same-same.
RE: “Either that or you are one smart woman.”
Not mutually exclusive ?
Regarding South Canyon, It’s disappointing to hear that overhead was made aware of their misgivings early enough to have made a difference. After 20 years, it seems that could have come out in the video. People look at those, you know?
Regarding, “Most of us did NOT trust Marsh…”
Who was “us.” Are we talking now about the people in the SAIT emails?
To both RTS and WTKTT:
Regarding whether Scott really was a threat, I don’t think he was. Of course, I know nothing of any of these men save what I’ve learned here, so this is base intuition, i.e., not worth the electrons it’s written with. I don’t think Scott wanted to clean up the outfit or turn it around. He just wanted a job close to home until he moved to the structure side. But I do think he had old-style hotshot attitude a la Smokey307 and Roberts the First and Second (and Gary, if he would admit it) and the others bent to it, which must have pissed off Marsh.
And I don’t think Marsh would necessarily have articulated that he felt threatened. But deep in his lizard brain (we all have one), I think Marsh felt hot breath on his neck. Maybe not for a few years, but still, he was losing control and even he could see why. The deeper the bench, the more tenuous was Marsh’s future.
Too bad those stories didn’t flow until the funerals.
Muzzy,
Most of us refers to current and former Hot Shot Superintendents and WFF Supervisors.
We all had GMHS stories of his abrasive attitude,near misses, getting away with things, Normalization of Deviance.
Norris a threat to Mash? Maybe somewhat in the sense that Norris was a ‘free thinker’ in the positive, not New Age, sense; and because that’s the way the Payson HS trained him.
A Payson HS would never go hunting for Easter eggs if it wasn’t Easter just because someone told him it was.
Norris may have been more of a threat to Steed. Even though the GMHS loved working for him, his attitude was very much ‘Marine’ – ‘you just do what I f**king tell you to do.’
This goes along with his PFD Personal Evaluation: “I THINK AS LEADERS WE NEED TO SUPPORT EACH OTHER AND AND BACK UP EACH OTHERS’ DECISIONS. *EMPHASIS ADDED)
He then goes on to say that the ‘team concept’ breaks down and compares it to high school and forming factions, one against another.in an ‘us vs.them’ scenario.
To me this statement has overtones of GroupThink and The Abilene Paradox.
Yes, the difference between a boss and a leader is humility, among other things.
Humility to the rules, to those who went before, to the best ideas amongst us. To ones own foibles.
I heard a lecture once many years ago from a retired general. The audience was young, so one of the questions was something about how it felt to be able to boss people around. The answer was funny and pointed, something like, “You know, they have guns! You don’t boss them around, you convince them that you’re right.”
Leadership is hard, and under appreciated. I surely am not good at it, no patience and I like my foibles. But people recognize it, and feel when it’s missing.
Muzzy,
I would have enjoyed hearing that retired that General’s speech.
Early in my supervisory position, a former District Ranger told me that supervision was a challenging job.
He summed it up nicely with this:
“Boss spelled backwards is Double “SSOB. You are not there to be their friend, you are there to be their Boss. So, be the Boss.”
That has helped me my whole career. I pass it along often to these ‘young’ Supervisors that want to be everyone’s FRIEND.
Sickening and dangerous.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
August 2, 2016 at 5:23 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> A Payson HS would never go hunting for Easter
>> eggs if it wasn’t Easter just because someone
>> told him it was.
Sorry. You can’t speak in ‘absolutes’ like that ever again…
…because that is EXACTLY what ‘Payson trained’ Hotshot Scott Norris DID do… on June 30, 2013.
WTKTT,
So, who gave you have the authority to rule my speech?,
Fair enough on the fact that Norris actually did go down the hill with everyone else.
I will REPHRASE the above to this:
Except under intense external influence(s) and pressure(s), a Payson HS would never go hunting for Easter eggs if it wasn’t Easter just because someone told him it was.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
August 2, 2016 at 8:44 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> So, who gave you have the authority
>> to rule my speech?,
I’m not ‘ruling’ your speech.
I’m just ‘advising’ you ( via MY free speech ).
That particular dog ( of yours ) won’t hunt.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Fair enough on the fact that Norris
>> actually did go down the hill with
>> everyone else.
Yes. He did.
I wish your statement above WAS ‘true’… and that his ‘Payson training’ alone WOULD have STOPPED him ( and others ) from doing so… but it didn’t.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I will REPHRASE the above to this:
>>
>> Except under intense external influence(s)
>> and pressure(s), a Payson HS would never
>> go hunting for Easter eggs if it wasn’t
>> Easter just because someone told him
>> it was.
Ah… okay… so there ARE no ‘absolutes’ here when it comes to this ‘Payson training’… as you tried to assert above.
Apply just enough ‘external influence and pressure’… and a Payson Hotshot will start scooping up those ‘Easter Eggs’ just like anybody else… maybe even BETTER.
Thanks for the clarification.
Look… you ALREADY admitted down below that you ( yourself ) did NOT KNOW this ‘Scott Norris’ guy.
>> On July 29, 2016 at 6:49 pm, RTS said…
>>
>> Gary,
>>
>> You are correct, I know nothing about
>> Scott Norris’ background and history
>> as a Payson Hotshot, other than what
>> I have been told by other Payson Hot
>> Shots that knew him and worked with
>> him.
He’s just another person that had his OWN reasons for wanting to be a civil service employee and fight wildfires… and ( hopefully ) also had his own reasons for wanting to come HOME from work at the end a workday.
Did you ever actually read Hotshot-turned-author Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”?
He really did do a pretty good job giving some ‘insights’ into who Scott Norris really was, and what HIS motivations were.
And I mean ‘internal’ motivations
The ‘Pressures’ and ‘Influences’ you now mention above do not have to always be ‘external’, you know. Sometimes the ‘internal’ ones will make you go nose-to-the-ground looking for Easter Eggs, too.
.
Scott Norris really WANTED that job with Granite Mountain to ‘work out’… and it had nothing to do with where he was ‘trained’ to be a Hotshot.
He wanted to be closer to his current girlfriend, Heather Kennedy, and he wanted that relationship to work out. Big time.
He also had NO INTENTIONS of being a ‘Hotshot’ for even a fraction of the time you ended up being one. He ( like many others ) simply saw the ‘Hotshot’ thing as a ‘glidepath’ to getting a regular able-to-take-showers-when-you-want REAL ‘civil service’ structural-firefighting job that he could retire from.
Complete with its own Easter Eggs Hunts.
Gary,
Regarding your Santa Fe HS Squad Boss, you posted: “My old friend looked me square in the eye and said, “Gary…you know I loved you man, and I never had reason to doubt you or refuse to follow you. BUT IF YOU WOULD HAVE ORDERED ME TO TAKE MY SQUAD DOWN INTO THAT BOILING CAULDRON OF FIRE AND SMOKE, I WOULD HAVE REFUSED. I WOULD NOT HAVE GONE DOWN THERE.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
“He didn’t HAVE to tell me he would have told me “no” if I would have given him reason to so back in the day. … Instead…he chose to say in effect.. ”IF YOU WOULD HAVE GIVEN ME A DANGEROUS ORDER I WOULD HAVE REFUSED TO FOLLOW IT.” Right?” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
So, this suggests that thus particular Squad Boss was an Independent Thinker, something NOT allowed on the Santa Fe Hot Shots, right?
So then, what happened to the, ‘If I told them it was Easter, they would start hunting for Easter eggs’ thing?
WTKTT,
One of the biggest conundrums in the YH Fire debacle is to understand WHY they did what they did, WHY did it make sense to them at the time.
Human Factors researcher Sydney Dekker said “Underneath every simple, obvious story about ‘human error,’ there is a deeper, more complex story about the organization.
And I infer this to primarily mean the GMHS organization and secondarily to mean the PFD.
“Doing so was not a sign of malice, but a way to get the work done given all its constraints, pressures, and expectations.”
“People do what makes sense to them at the times – given their goals, attentional focus, and knowledge–otherwise they wouldn’t be doing it.”
“If it made sense for [the GMHS] to do what they did, then it may make sense for others as well.”
Human “errors are symptoms of trouble deeper inside a system.”
It makes complete sense to me what Marsh did based on his longstanding infernal habit of making Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes and normalizing deviance.
It’s the OTHER GMHS, Norris and Warneke and others, that makes NO sense to me.
The anguish, mental battles and pressures, constraints, and WHY they could not/would not break the chain of ‘Plan Continuation,’ – with Watch Out cues slapping them in the face – must have been so intense that I cannot fathom it.
Nonetheless, they we SO intense that Norris gave in to them and went against everything he had been trained to do.
I do NOT and will NOT subscribe to the f**ked up notion that Norris went looking for f**king Easter eggs like some mindless moronic sheep.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
post on August 3, 2016 at 7:13 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> One of the biggest conundrums in
>> the YH Fire debacle is to understand
>> WHY they did what they did, WHY
>> did it make sense to them at the time.
Running out of room down here… so see a ‘continuation’ and a longer reply up above at…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343793
Reply to Muzzy post on August 2, 2016 at 3:08 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Regarding whether Scott really was a threat, I don’t
>> think he was.
Neither do I… but I still really DO understand your original ‘line of thinking’ on this.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> I don’t think Scott wanted to clean up the outfit or
>> turn it around. He just wanted a job close to home
>> until he moved to the structure side.
Both Fernanda Santos and Brendan McDonough basically don’t mention Scott Norris at all. Santos just gives a ‘mini-bio’ that wasn’t even as complete as Norris’ public obituaries and Brendan basically blew off mentioning his ‘brother’ Norris at all in his book “My Lost BROTHERS”.
But Kyle Dickman had extensive and exclusive access to Scott Norris’ family and friends… and Dickman talked about Norris a LOT.
I think it’s safe to say that if Scott Norris had a ‘prime directive’ for HIMSELF for that 2013 season… it was simply to be ‘based’ in Prescott so he could be close to his girlfriend Heather… and if he could just do THAT… everything else would fall into place for him as the future pulled up.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> But I do think he had old-style hotshot attitude a
>> la Smokey307 and Roberts the First and Second
>> (and Gary, if he would admit it) and the others bent
>> to it, which must have pissed off Marsh.
There is no evidence that Marsh was ‘pissed off’ ( in any way ) about either Scott Norris or Dustin Deford being ‘on the team’ for the 2013 season.
On the contrary, see the response I typed up above.
Given what an absolute fucking rolling train-wreck that organization was that 2013 season, personnel wise, I think both Steed and Marsh were GLAD to have both Norris and Deford ‘onboard’.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> And I don’t think Marsh would necessarily have
>> articulated that he felt threatened.
>> But deep in his lizard brain (we all have one), I think
>> Marsh felt hot breath on his neck. Maybe not for
>> a few years, but still, he was losing control and
>> even he could see why. The deeper the bench,
>> the more tenuous was Marsh’s future.
>>
>> Too bad those stories didn’t flow until the funerals.
I believe the only ‘hot breath’ that Marsh was really feeling on his neck that mattered at that point in ‘the season’ was what was coming from Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.
Willis was ( by his own admission after the tragedy ) ‘mentoring’ Marsh as his ‘replacement’… but also telling Marsh that the entire City Council was ‘watching them’ and that the future of the ENTIRE organization was (quote) “in our hands now”.
No Granite Mountain… no promotion… no job.
I think THAT was the ‘primary heat’ that was ( as you describe ) “breathing down Marsh’s neck”.
WTKTT said, “I think THAT was the ‘primary heat’ that was ( as you describe ) “breathing down Marsh’s neck”.”
Agreed. I’m thinking now about Marsh’s effect on the men. I am speculating about the kind of dynamic that allowed so many men who knew better and who had previously spoken explicitly about the very situation that led to their deaths. I know people are leaning toward Abilene Paradox and Groupthink, but I’m thinking more Stockholm Syndrome or the workplace version of Battered Wife Syndrome. For example, that Norris didn’t speak because he anticipated retribution from leaders who really didn’t want to hear from the fancy pants from Payson.
In the example RTS gave of the ill-fated plane ride, there was a competition of sorts among all participants, but there was only one person in a position to assess the danger. At YH, they all knew the danger, and some of them had been trained to speak up. They weren’t going to be shot for desertion. Was PR that important to them?
Other examples, the tired pilot who crashed in New York, there was an emergency. GM were tired, but there was no emergency for GM up on the hill, though their pals in town were feeling the heat. I don’t know all the fine points of these behavior models, but what I see is really one-sided.
Were they just browbeaten? I think Gary said something about Marsh being a sociopath. I thought it was Gary being dramatic, but maybe he’s right.
South Mountain? Do you live in the Valley of the Sun?
Last nights get, it was the Valley of the Monsoon of Biblical Proportions. Next week, it will be the Valley of Gigantic Mosquitos. So, yes.
What about the “Valley of the Haboobs” that used to fill our stupid swimming pool with topsoill from Mexico? See…I did use to be a trained investigator, cause I know where South Mountain is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haboob
Reply to calvin post on August 1, 2016 at 1:49 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> The Doce fire was the first fire Marsh had led
>> the crew on during 2013, correct?
Incorrect.
Eric Marsh had been ‘allowed’ to come off ‘light duty’ and resume his job as Superintendent of the Granite Mountain Hotshos in-between the Thompson Ridge and the Doce fire(s)… but on the day the Doce fire actually started… Marsh was getting hit truck fixed and he did NOT actually ‘dispatch’ with GM that afternoon to the start of the ‘Doce’ fire.
The Doce fire never went through any incremental ‘phases’ like some fires do. It went straight from ‘Initial Attack’ to a full-blown Type 1 ‘incident’, and local Tony Sciacca was the ‘Incident Commander’.
Sciacca made Eric Marsh a DIVS on the Doce fire… so between Marsh missing the first day because he was getting his truck fixed… and then serving as DIVS for the remainder of the ‘Doce’ fire… Eric Marsh never got to ‘work with’ or ‘lead’ his own GM crew for the entire duration of the Doce Fire.
Jesse Steed as ‘acting superintendent’ the whole time… but because Tom Cooley had already returned to his ‘structural firefighter’ job with the Prescott Fire Department… and because Marsh got ‘borrowed’ by Sciacca to be a DIVS… GM was ‘short’ the usual full contingent of crewmembers the whole time they were engaged with the ‘Doce’ fire of June, 2013.
So even though Marsh had been ‘restored’ to active duty as the ‘Superintendent’ of Granite Mountain in-between the Thomspon Ridge and Doce fires… he did not actually perform that role with this ‘new’ 2013 crew until the Yarnell Fire itself… and even THEN he gets ‘tapped’ to be DIVS just like at the ‘Doce’ fire.
From Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
—————————————————–
Steed rearranged Alpha and Bravo after Bunch’s and Renan’s departures, and Granite Mountain was a slightly different crew than they had been on Thompson Ridge. Marsh, who was getting his truck fixed and not with the hotshots when the Doce broke, was back in his superintendent’s position on Granite Mountain. Steed stepped back to captain, and Tom Cooley returned to structural firefighting.
Many townspeople knew of the Forest Service’s Prescott Hotshots, across town, but didn’t know that the city employed its own hotshots until the Doce— until Granite Mountain had protected an ancient Juniper tree on the flanks of its namesake peak. It was a great story. The Prescott Daily Courier ran an article about Granite Mountain’s efforts and talked to Marsh about what it was like to have saved the iconic tree. “It feels right, you know?” Marsh told the reporter. He hadn’t been there when the crew saved the juniper. During the first stages of the initial attack, the incident commander had tapped Marsh to oversee a division of the fire, and once again he hadn’t worked with Granite Mountain at all on the Doce. But he understood that the newspaper story wasn’t just about the tree.
—————————————————–
“…the incident commander ( Tony Sciacca ) had tapped Marsh to oversee a division of the fire, and once again he hadn’t worked with Granite Mountain at all on the Doce.”
It’s also interesting to NOTE that, according to Hotshot-turned-author Kyle Dickman… the ‘HERO’ stuff that appeared in the papers about GM ‘saving the Juniper Tree’ ( which Jesse Steed had actually just wanted to de-limb until someone stopped him ) wasn’t just some ‘recognition’. The way Dickman tells it… it was actually the FIRST TIME a lot of people in Prescott even became AWARE of the “Granite Mountain Hotshots”… just 12 days before they would all ( save one ) perish at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
So one still has to wonder if all that ‘HERO press’ just 12 days before Yarnell was any kind of ‘factor’ in the decision making that took place in Yarnell.
Eric Marsh himself had been INTERVIEWED for that “HERO press”.
Maybe ( just maybe ) he realized that nothing gets the ‘job done’ as far as making a case for the existence of this crew to the City Council like THAT kind of “PRESS”.
And maybe ( just maybe ) circa 3:45 PM on June 30, 2013, Eric Marsh felt that there were now “eyes on” Granite Mountain back in Prescott like never before… and that following June 30, 2013… there might only be TWO choices for a ‘headline’ back in Prescott…
1. “Granite Mountain crew that saved Juniper Tree at Doce fire sits it out in the black while the town of Yarnell burns down.”
** OR **
2. “Granite Mountain crew that saved Juniper Tree at Doce fire makes valiant effort to try and save the town of Yarnell”.
SOMETHING was PUSHING Eric Marsh to, in turn, PUSH those men under his command to make that risky, ill-advised move out of the safe black that day.
And it does remain ‘possible’ that he simply “Esse Quam Videried” those men right into their graves.
Slogans and Mottos CAN, in fact, KILL if you take them TOO seriously.
Lesson Learned?
Interesting theory
Once again… the way Hotshot-turned-author Kyle Dickman put it…
—————————————————————-
Many townspeople knew of the Forest Service’s Prescott Hotshots, across town, but didn’t know that the city employed its own hotshots until the Doce— until Granite Mountain had protected an ancient Juniper tree on the flanks of its namesake peak. It was a GREAT STORY
—————————————————————-
So… just 12 days before Yarnell… Eric Marsh ( and Darrell Willis ) realize that “nothing gets the job done better” than appearing in the local newspaper.
And again… a DIRECT quote from Darrell Willis to Eric Marsh in Marsh’s ’employee evaluation’ just weeks before Yarnell…
“The future of Granite Mountain is now in OUR HANDS”
Kyle Dickman doesn’t ‘attribute’ his quote ( in his Chapter 22 ) to any particular source… but it stands to reason that while he was interviewing ALL of the people he did for his book, and not just family or friends or fireman, he probably heard from more than just one person…
“I never even knew Prescott HAD a Type 1 Hotshot Crew until we read about that ‘saving the Juniper Tree’ thing in the local paper.”
Also… from just a few paragraphs later in Kyle Dickman’s book, after the ‘quote’ above about the ‘Juniper Tree’ thing appearing in the paper…
————————————————————
Granite Mountain was news!
The men joked nonstop about being anointed heroes.
In a show of thanks, locals brought to the station sleeping bags, doughnuts, muffins, and Gatorade.
How any of Prescott’s residents ascertained that the unmarked compound on an industrial street corner was Granite Mountain’s station, the guys couldn’t figure out.
None of the public had ever stopped by before.
—————————————————————-
So even the CREW now knew that the ‘town’ had just basically ‘discovered them’… and considered them ‘heroes’…
…just 12 days before Yarnell.
Thanks
1. Norris had never worked on a fire with Marsh as Supt?
2. Donut and MacKenzie escaped a near burn over while the crew was under control of STEED on the Doce?
Interesting
I believe marsh and crew were on lighting fires on Prescott NF prior to Yarnell.
Marsh Hired him as well.
You said, “Jesse Steed had actually just wanted to de-limb until someone stopped him.” I’m starting to like Jesse Steed even more. Now THAT is the hotshot way to save a tree because you can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs and the only good tree is one that is on the back of a logging truck…the old school USFS way.
We have talked about this theory before several times on this thread but it has never been summed up the way you did just now and I can’t state strongly enough how much I agree with everything you said.
I was a media WHORE when I was a hotshot crew boss in Santa Fe where the media had access to us and we had a high profile because we were the only hotshot crew on the Santa Fe.
I took every opportunity that presented itself to showcase my crew and bent over backwards to put on a show for both print and television reports and my crew was not even in jeopardy of being cut whatsoever. I still have a couple of my bullshit articles in a my files I would scan and post if I thought anybody would want to read them.
I really can identify with Marsh in so many ways as I have said so many times before. And the fact that we were both egomaniac, autocratic DICKS is just one of them.
I KNOW for a fact that Marsh was doing exactly what WTKTT just said he was doing because that is EXACTLY what I would have done, minus killing my crew in the process of course because that would really undermine the reason for the good press in the first place.
The Woodsman siad, “The post is obviously from a really old-time hotshot of serious wisdom. I thought it was interesting that he mentioned Yarnell Hill.”
By poster Smokey307:
“There is a hotshot attitude. There always has been. I had one as a hot shot 50 years ago. That attitude should be directed to doing well the difficult and dangerous job you were hired and trained to do. Professional hotshot attitude is always quiet, it doesn’t need to be spoken, it is not condescending, it does not put down other types of crews because all are important, if anything it seeks to bring other crews up to their level rather than put them down. I don’t know if that attitude was in play on the Yarnell Fire but I know it was on the 1966 Loop Fire. The crew in question sort of lorded it over other crews including other hotshot crews. Sometimes that too high level of confidence blinds a crew to safety concerns. That did happen on a hotshot crew on the Loop Fire in 1966 and I lost 12 brother hotshots. I know this because I was on a hotshot crew where our Superintendent refused the same assignment. Professional hotshot attitude is humble and giving. Even if you were the hardest working crew person I had, I would consider letting you go. What you say is poison to a crew and the crew is much more important than any one individual. I hope you heed my counsel because it would be too bad to lose an otherwise good crewman”
And although I do agree with the Woodsman and Smokey307 in THEORY, just like I agree with everyone who writes or speaks about the, “Code of the Old West” in theory.
Unfortunately, neither one is based on reality, which is where most of us live. There was no such thing as the, “Code of the Old West”, except in the minds of Loius L’Amore and countless others. The old west was dog eat dog and survival of the fittest and by the fittest…I mean the people who were willing to do whatever it took to not only survive…but to flourish.
Smokey307 writes like a man who has NEVER had to compete for funding in a world that is a zero sum game that has two kinds of people in it that is decided with a binary choice…you are either a winner or a loser. There are finite amounts of funding, fires and choice assignments and not everyone can get all of the above, all of the time.
The hotshot world that exists today was not built by quiet men who labored in obscurity, it was build by men who were not only good, but knew how to tell people just how good they were. The people who controlled the taxes of American citizens and decided how those those taxes were going to be spent. It is not enough to be good, people have to know how good you are, or you are not in next year’s budget.
Do you have any idea how much money it takes to staff and field a hotshot crew today? I don’t either; but I know it is a whole bunch of money. And you had better be able to show results and be ready to explain WHY you should continue to be funded…or else.
I used to be a dreamer once upon a time…and then I found out the hard way how the world works and almost didn’t survive long enough several times (both literally and figuratively) to take a leisurely drive up and through the Mt. Rainier National Park in a Jeep with the top and doors off yesterday afternoon for my birthday.
I got to buy a lifetime pass to all National Parks for ten bucks yesterday as well. I think it has been costing me about eighty dollars per year until yesterday…bitchin’! Keep goin’ forward my brothers and sisters…there is light at the end of the tunnel and if you are lucky enough, it won’t be an on-coming train.
Happy Birthday, Fat Ass Olde Codger!
Concerning Smokey307’s post that I quoted, I interpreted it has “if you have to tell people how good you are. than you’re nothing but a poser. It should be obvious.”
The discussion of the Hotshot Attitude was something I deemed interesting. I must rely on actual hotshots to explain that one because it’s out of my area of expertise. Is there one? If there is one, what is it? Can it get out hand, if there is one? What type of attitude is optimal for a crewmember? Crew Boss?
I’m happily shocked that you made it one more year. Keep up the good work!
Woodsman
Fat Ass? Just because when I haul ass…I have to make two trips? My nicknames as a hotshot went like this,
1. FNG
2. WIDE LOAD, kids can be so cruel
3. Dad, Poppa, Pappy at both Happy Jack and Santa Fe (and sometimes El Jefe and El Patron in Santa Fe)
You said, “Concerning Smokey307’s post that I quoted, I interpreted it has “if you have to tell people how good you are. than you’re nothing but a poser. It should be obvious.”
And I say, “Yes, I agree with Smokey307 in a perfect world, but our world is anything but perfect.”
You said, “The discussion of the Hotshot Attitude was something I deemed interesting. I must rely on actual hotshots to explain that one because it’s out of my area of expertise.”
And I say, “Why must you rely on others, you obviously have one of your own. And you already know what it is because you have it. All good WF do. Not everyone calls it “hotshot attitude” because not everyone is a hotshot.
There are different names for it, but they all come under the umbrella of WF Attitude, except for helislacks, they left theirs by the motel pool a long time ago.
Without attitude, none of us could saddle up and trudge up the hill to fight fiery dragons that are great forces of nature far beyond our capacity to successfully engage except we are capable of abstract thought and the wildfires aren’t.
You asked;
:
1. Is there one?
Yes, there is a hotshot attitude, every hotshot and every hotshot crew with the possible exception of the old Oak Grove and Payson Hotshot crews (I am still trying to figure them out) are made of of nothing but people who have them.
2. If there is one, what is it?
Hotshot attitude is made up of equal parts of “esprit de corps”
(feelings of loyalty, enthusiasm, and devotion to a group among people who are members of the group) a “can do or gung ho spirit” and “synergy” where the creation of a whole that is greater than the simple sum of its parts.
3. Can it get out hand, if there is one? Yes…see the histories of the Loop, the Battlement Creek and the Yarnell Hill Fires. Disregard the South Canyon Fire that one was an outlier.
4. What type of attitude is optimal for a crew member?
See the answer to number 2.
5. What type of attitude is optimal the crew boss?
The crew always comes first…in all things, every time. No exceptions.
You said, “I’m happily shocked that you made it one more year.”
And I say, “Me too.”
Thanks for the excellent run-down of the hotshot attitude, Gary.
I apologize for the fat ass comment. Good thing you have skin thicker than a buffalo turd on Christmas morning on the banks of the Kubuk river on a falling tide……or I’d be in trouble.
Woodshift
No one survives as a WF without having thick skin…you know that. And LE is just as bad and sometimes even worse. Neither profession is made up of “nice” people for the most part. I heard there used to some in Prescott…but most of them died on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Just to add Smokey307 is from the Angeles NF worked and retired there. He is a old friend of mine.
Figures.
I guess I should fill that “figures” out a little more.
It figures that you and Smokey307 are friends from back in the day in that you both live in worlds that don’t exist anymore and I don’t think ever existed in the first place.
A world where strong and quiet men can let their actions speak for themselves etc. and that teaching everyone to know and follow the 10 and 18 at all times is the answer to every question about WF safety..
And your point is????
Well you were not in Southern California then and if you looked up who’s who in wild land fire. A large majority came from there and went to a lot of Powerful and high jobs in Wild Land Fire through out the country in the 70’s and 80’s including the 90’s.
Gary,
Talking about Smokey307 and friends and Bob, you posted: “… that you both live in worlds that don’t exist anymore and I don’t think ever existed in the first place.”
The fact that they don’t exist anymore … isn’t that the point.?
You also posted: “A world where strong and quiet men can let their actions speak for themselves etc. and that TEACHING EVERYONE TO KNOW AND FOLLOW THE 10 AND 18 AT ALL TIMES IS THE ANSWER TO EVERY QUESTION ABOUT WF SAFETY.”
(EMPHASIS ADDED)
And so, what is wrong with TEACHING EVERYONE TO KNOW AND FOLLOW THE 10 AND 18 AT ALL TIMES ON THE FIRELINE AS THE ANSWER TO EVERY QUESTION ABOUT WF SAFETY”
There has NEVER been a wildfire where a WFF has followed all The WFF Rules and ended up unexpectedly burned over,deployed a fire shelter, and/or died. NEVER!
Environmental issues such as those listed in Watch Out #19, Death From Above, yes, absolutely.
Hazard trees and associated hazards are a major WFF crippler and killer.
Lightning and the various Gravity issues and aircraft are next.
In principle they apply but not as effectively. The fire ALWAYS signals to you what it is going to do. The environmental hazards sometimes.
Read the Investigative Reports and you won’t find one where they followed all The WFF Rules.
Gary,
And one more thing the reason that you don’t think that world ever existed in the first place is because you were not in it and/or could not relate to it and anyone that was.
Actually…there are several issues at play in this little exchange.
1. When I said, “It figures that you and Smokey307 are friends from back in the day in that you both live in worlds that don’t exist anymore and I don’t think ever existed in the first place.”
That was in reference to an argument Bob and I had several months ago where Bob really got wrapped up pretty tight in the whole, “If you cut me…I bleed green! Because the Forest Service can do no wrong…or at least if they do, you can’t talk about it.”
And I told Bob the world he describes where the Forest Service is full of good people who only want to do good things…as in the TV Forest Ranger as portrayed on the hit show “Lassie”, doesn’t exist anymore and I don’t think it ever really did…except in Bob’s mind.
And Bob accuse me of “hating” the Forest Service. I explained to Bob that I neither love nor hate the Forest Service…it is too big, too complex and too diverse to put in a love or hate box. It is what it is. A large complex federal agency with competing agendas. So…none of that has anything to do with you and me…I don’t think.
2. You said I said, “You also posted: “A world where strong and quiet men can let their actions speak for themselves etc. and that TEACHING EVERYONE TO KNOW AND FOLLOW THE 10 AND 18 AT ALL TIMES IS THE ANSWER TO EVERY QUESTION ABOUT WF SAFETY.”
(EMPHASIS ADDED)”
And yes, that was an executive summary to express my opinion that I have long held and exposed on this thread that WF safety is NOT nearly as simple as you and Bob have always said it is…by rote…like robots…like broken records.
3. I have a Mother of All Posts swirling around inside my head I don’t know if I will ever be able to capture…but here is glimpse of it for you…special because I don’t like you, but I respect you. And that is enough for me to want to try and help you.
Bob trained you, you trained Shinstock and the number 2 (I don’t feel like doing any research right now…even if I spelled Mike’s (?) name wrong, you know who I am talking about), they trained Scott Norris, Scott Norris had a chance to save the crew IF he would have stood up and followed through on what YOU taught him, and he experienced an EPIC FAILURE, you had a chance to save the crew vicariously and you experienced and EPIC FAILURE. I am not interested in who could have, should have, or would have…I am only interested in results…the bottom line. Neither you nor Scott Norris get an A for Effort, you don’t even get an E for Effort, you and Scott Norris get an EF for EPIC Failure.
I KNOW that if ONE man would have stood up and refused to stand down and said to Steed, “I am not going down that chimney and you shouldn’t either!” Steed would have found enough courage to stand up to Eric Marsh and the crew would all be alive today. But he didn’t….end of story.
Whatever was going on that day overrode everything and that means EVERYBODY is subject to the same exact EPIC FAILURE because you and Shinstock and Scott Norris are as good as they come…and none of you could stop or even slow down the worst catastrophic EPIC FAILURE in WF history.
YOU need to STOP repeating that the 10 and the 18 are the answer to every WF safety question because they are NOT.
You had your shot to prove you and Bob are right on June 30, 2013,…and all we have is almost an entire hotshot crew burned alive to show for your 27 years of building the Payson Hotshot Culture.
Let’s open our minds and look beyond the 10 and the 18 and why in spite of all your best efforts and decades of training…you couldn’t make a difference on that awful day.
4. Got to go to the dunes…I hear the sand whispering my name and I have 3 buddies counting on me to be there. So…we are going to have to pick this up again next week.
Oh…and one more thing. I already told this story on this blog but now is a good time to tell it again.
About 18 months ago I was having breakfast on a trip back to Arizona with one of my old squad bosses who I trained from an FNG.
We were talking about the Yarnell Hill Fire and discussing the fly around video that WTKTT had made about that time.
My old friend looked me square in the eye and said, “Gary…you know I loved you man, and I never had reason to doubt you or refuse to follow you. But if you would have ordered me to take my squad down that chute into that boiling cauldron of fire and smoke, I would have refused. I would have not gone down there.”
This man is the very epitome of a no nonsense kind of guy…I believed him since I have never had a reason to NOT believe anything he has said in 35 years and he went on to have a highly successful career in another agency.
I was the autocrat hotshot crew boss and you were…not, So…where did you go wrong and how did I get it right?
Whoops, I forgot to add “confidence” in the mix and a very healthy does of it. Hopefully…confidence short of hubris, but a high level of confidence nevertheless.
Parse to the great and wonderful GARY who is so full of himself he is spewing BULL SHIT all over the place
What was it you said if you told your crew to hunt Easter eggs they would even it was not Easter.
You just confirmed that no you previous crew member would have told you no period.
So your squads did not have a say in decisions BS…….
Yes I still bleed GREEN but I have always called a Spade a Spade I thought I had explained that to you oh well.
You just blew your cover. Enjoy.
I’m not really following you logic there…Bob. My old squad boss affirmed that although I never gave him a reason to tell me “no”, he would have done so in a heartbeat if that was the right thing to do.
Are you okay?
And like I told you before, I bleed red…just like the GMIHC. You don’t have anything on me with your history with the Forest Service…except I continued to develop both as an employee and as a person whereas you didn’t…that’s all. Don’t hate me for it. You made those choices and you like the choices you made, so why be jealous of me?
I think you bleed green because of the green eyed monster that is inside of you.
And why do you think my old squad boss would say that after we are both old (and highly successful retirees as far as govt. grunts go) sitting there eating breakfast. He didn’t HAVE to tell me he would have told me “no” if I would have given him reason to so back in the day.
He could have simply said the opposite or have said nothing at all about it. Instead…he chose to say in effect..”.If you would have ever given me a dangerous order I would have refused to follow it.” Right?
Why would he have a reason to lie after all of this time has bone by? He had nothing to gain. I was not and am not in a position to help him with anything. He doesn’t need me for anything. He retired basically at my same level except with another agency years ago, He is living the well deserved and earned) good life just as I am.
What I am missing here…Bob? Not that I want or need to spend a lot of time analyzing you…Bob.
I would like to take this opportunity to revise my answer to a question I have never been asked before, is there a hotshot attitude and it there is one, what is it. Yes there is one and it is made up of the following in equal parts;;
1. “esprit de corps” (feelings of loyalty, enthusiasm, and devotion to a group among people who are members of the group)
2, “can do or gung ho spirit” (willing to go the extra mile…or two, with great enthusiasm)
3. “high degree of confidence” (bordering on…but not hubris)
4. “strong work ethic” (especially for challenging, repetitive, and physical manual labor)
I am deleting “synergy” (where the creation of a whole that is greater than the simple sum of its parts) because an individual can’t have synergy, that is what comes when twenty like minded individuals such as identified above coalesce into a cohesive unit called a hotshot crew
All good WF have something very similar to the hotshot attitude which can be called the WF Attitude. But what makes hotshot crews special and sets them apart is the synergy that enables a group of otherwise ordinary individuals to accomplish extraordinary tasks.
This is primarily because the organizational structure of a hotshot crew enables them to routinely train and work together under the same conditions and environments they are expected to operate under in chaotic and dangerous situations such as fighting uncontrolled wildfires with minimal oversight, supervision and support.
I am going to add a personal favorite to what may become a “living post” as I strive to perfect my perfect description of what I perceive to be the “hotshot attitude.”
5. Excessive Pride, in one’s self and unit. In addition to what some would call “perverse pride” in a hotshot’s lowly status as a grunt and a ground pounder…the tip of the WF spear.
Reply to Gary Olson post on August 1, 2016 at 2:28 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> You said, “Jesse Steed had actually just wanted to de-limb
>> until someone stopped him.” I’m starting to like Jesse Steed
>> even more. Now THAT is the hotshot way to save a tree
>> because you can’t make an omelette without breaking some
>> eggs and the only good tree is one that is on the back of a
>> logging truck…the old school USFS way.
When Granite Mountain was first told ( at the Doce Fire ) that they were supposed to hike in and find this ‘Juniper’ tree and try to do something to protect it… they all thought it was a bullshit assignment.
It had to be ‘explained’ to them why it mattered.
Even then… when they first encountered the tree… Juniper Trees have ‘low hanging limbs’ and their first instincts were to just ‘chop those off’.
In her book “The Fire Line”, author Fernanda Santos writes the following which her NOTES section says was based on information from McDonough AND from several of the ‘widows’ who told her what their husbands had told THEM…
From page 48 of Santos’ book…
———————————————————————-
The men hiked up to the alligator juniper with the mission of saving it. A wilderness and trails manager at the Prescott National Forest had asked them to, and they complied, in selfish interest; after all, the champion tree was in their own backyard. Dried shrubs clogged its base, potentially a ladder of fuel for flames to climb. Branches hung close to the ground, an easy target for a moving fire. The Hotshots thought about sawing off those branches, but reconsidered.
———————————————————————-
So instead of just ‘whacking off’ the low limbs as they were first inclined to do ( not a good idea if the point is to SAVE a 1,000 year old tree )… then ended up just clearing brush, then putting a ‘line’ around the tree… and then ‘lighting things up’ around that as they exited the area.
They had no idea if their own manual burnout was going to ‘light up’ the tree itself but they took that chance. They didn’t bother to hang around and find out… they just ‘lit up’ on their way out and left the area.
When they came back the next day… the tree was still standing but a lot of it HAD been pretty badly ‘singed’ and there had been an ’ember wash’ with some embers still burning in the tree.
They put those ’ember hits’ out.
It’s still not actually known if the tree will, in fact, SURVIVE that ‘burnout’ and all the stress. Only time will tell.
The only question I would have had back in the day was, “Can I get my 3/4 ton Dodge Powerwagon close enough to it before I cut it down for fire wood so I don’t have to carry the rounds to far?
Reply to Gary Olson post on August 1, 2016 at 5:06 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> The only question I would have had back in the day was,
>> “Can I get my 3/4 ton Dodge Powerwagon close enough
>> to it before I cut it down for fire wood so I don’t have to
>> carry the rounds to far?
They ( Granite Mountain ) were so unsure they had actually done anything to ‘save’ the tree at all… they had the SAME THOUGHTS.
From McDonough’s own book… “My Lost Brothers”…
——————————————————————-
Nobody could know whether the ancient juniper had the strength to recover from the stress of the wildfire. Some, like Donut, thought it would surely die. How any being, especially one so old, could survive such a severe burn was beyond him. If nothing else, they’d given the juniper a fighting chance. For a short while, the men spread out around the tree and mopped up any remaining spot fires in the vicinity, but few remained. The chaparral had little wood left to harbor a spark. After, the men sprawled out in the shade of the juniper’s branches and, while eating lunch, made deliberately crass jokes about visiting the tree during firewood-collection season.
——————————————————————-
As I have said before for three years now…the Granite Mountain Hotshots were wildland firefighters…they just had the bad luck of working for a structural fire department.
They knew that you have to burn the village down in order to save it…sometimes. Firewood to keep your family warm doesn’t grow on trees! Wait a minute…it kind of does. You just have to cut it down, buck it up, and split it.
Our old 3000 foot house outside of Santa Fe was heated almost entirely by wood fires. Two fireplaces and a huge pot bellied stove. The first word all of my kids learned was, “HOT!” As in…HOT…don’t ever touch or even get near.
After I lived in that house for 7 years I HATE wood fires almost as much as I HATE swimming pools after living in Phoenix for 8 years and maintaining a huge pool for five of those years. The biggest requirement for the house the second time around…it couldn’t have a big yard, pool or fireplace that was not GAS.
Depends.. Is that the same vehicle Mayor Kuykendahl sold you 🙂
No…that was actually a Toyota Corolla and technically…he sold it to my girlfriend who is now my dear wife. I bought my Dodge Power Wagon new in 1976 and I still own it. It is now…and always has been…BAD ASS!
WTKTT,
You said,
“And maybe ( just maybe ) circa 3:45 PM on June 30, 2013, Eric Marsh felt that there were now “eyes on” Granite Mountain back in Prescott like never before… and that following June 30, 2013… there might only be TWO choices for a ‘headline’ back in Prescott…
1. “Granite Mountain crew that saved Juniper Tree at Doce fire sits it out in the black while the town of Yarnell burns down.”
** OR **
2. “Granite Mountain crew that saved Juniper Tree at Doce fire makes valiant effort to try and save the town of Yarnell”.
I believe you are correct. The last events of the day were driven by PR considerations. Marsh discovered too late the value of good press. If it is true that few in the city even knew about the GM HS at the time of the Doce fire, their budget would certainly be at risk of cuts. Bad headlines so early in their ascent would probably have had the same effect. Gary is right, taxpayers need feedback and love their heroes.
Lesson learned? Imagine the third possible headline:
3. “19 Granite Mountain Hotshots Lost”
Sadly the crew could save a Juniper tree but fail to save themselves. Their bosses lacked the courage to say no to an assignment to protect structures that they knew was a major risk. Did they believe those fire blankets would save them if they had to face the inferno? After all I had no fire blanket and even if I did I would have still refused to follow Joy or any one else down there. I know this because Joy and I argued about that very fact. If an army of men could not have stopped that fire we and they were watching shortly before they went down and even before at 11 am or thereabouts what invincibility could anyone have in mind that they would challenge such a horrific fire knowing the winds were due to change anytime. It boggles the mind, but then I saw seven miners that went back in a place I refused, and their challenge of the forces of nature caught them back in the Ward Mine–fortunately and barely they escaped with their lives–yet it is seen, some men of good experience will lead their crew into a dangerous situation despite their own knowledge of the danger.
Reply to Charlie post on August 2, 2016 at 2:37 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> It boggles the mind.
Yes it does ( even now, with all we have discovered ).
Just in the last few days on just this thread we have ‘reaffirmed’….
1. Scott Norris was trained as a PAYSON Hotshot… who are ( supposedly ) trained to NOT go along with ‘Groupthink’ and to ‘speak up’ ( assertively ) when necessary.
He was also not just simply FAMILIAR with ALL prior WF burnover/fatality incidents and the circumstances that led to them.. he was a STUDENT of them and had printed copies of all the previous investigation reports on his own bookshelf at home.
2. William ‘Billy’ Warneke also had TERRAIN ‘training’, and his wife has ALWAYS insisted there is absolutely NO WAY he would have ever walked down into that blind box canyon under those circumstances unless he was specifically ORDERED to do so.
3. There is still full and credible evidence that there WAS an ‘argument’ between Steed and Marsh… with Steed ‘trying’ to refuse ( with mitigated speech, etc. ) doing what Eric Marsh wanted him to do because he knew ( and was possibly also being told by others like Norris and Warneke? ) that it was ‘dangerous’.
But they all marched down to their deaths, anyway, like lemmings.
That still raises HUGE RED FLAGS with regards to the ‘culture’ that these civil service employees are expected to ‘participate’ in…. and the ‘training’ ( or lack thereof ) that they actually receive.
And if nothing is done to address these issues… it is GOING to happen again.
WTKTT –As you have presented the evidence it makes one think that Marsh had to have had a command and even a demand that he cause those men to descend into the death canyon despite their better judgement not to do so. They way you have presented it makes sense that structure protection was on somebody’s mind in the Glen Isla, Yarnell vicinity. I am certainly encouraged with that idea when Willis had stated in his media speech right after the incident that this is what those men do–they protect structures.
Apparently, they could not just sit there knowing that fact despite their safety in the black and despite the fact that some knew it was suicide–something even I could determine from being there at their descend point off the two track. It was well known by experienced people like the cowboy Rick McKinsey that you do not get yourself entangled into an immense maze of manzanita, scrub oak and catclaw with a raging wild fire nearby–and most especially if you are looking at a thunderstorm headed directly your way. These men saw all these things as I did, yet could not read the signs–the bosses must have believed that the weather warnings were not enough to keep them from risking the lives of their men to protect empty structures.
It kind of remind me of the military–at least before when I heard it said–take care of the equipment you grunts–we can get plenty more bodies but equipment is hard to replace. Of course I do not believe most commanders thought that way, but certainly a few were ready to take needless risk out of either hope for glory or likely ignorance and lack of experience. There is certainly much to learn where you have an option of choosing commanders as in wild land fire fighting.
Beside the many reports Scott Norris had of situations that killed wild land fire fighters, it would have been a good thing to have a study on the commanders that killed those fire fighters. Their habits of breaking rules, the men’s attitudes toward safety rules such as we saw of Donut’s disdain for them and other human factors including the long time history and experience of the men about to take those men into situations that demand quality supervisors. We certainly did not see that in the Yarnell GMHS supervision–yet somehow it all passed the top dogs by–even when they had been red flagged by long time well experienced supervisors like RTS and Provencio.
Perhaps, if the truth ultimately surfaces,. thanks to men of credentials in the wild land fire fighting business whom have been voicing their concerns and citizens who see the errors made here and in former incidents, their will be stricter controls and even quicker response to lightening strikes where there is extreme fire danger as we had here at Yarnell.
Strangely, that strike could have been contained within a few hours the first day had the local fire departments taken quick and proper action. We hope that is a lesson they have learned and those that told them they could make up their own minds as to what to do from higher sources that knew of the strike. Good God, did they not know that once that got free of the boulders it would turn to a raging wild land fire. These things they had to know if they had any wild land fire fighting training at all. You can bet had some old cowboy been brewing coffee on a fire among those boulders those firemen would have been there in a heart beat to douse the fire and perhaps give the old boy a ticket even if he had it properly contained. You were totally restricted two weeks before the lightening strike to any kind of flame, even a cigarette in that area.
I asked Dr. Ted Putnam, who by the way has investigated the area more than once, whether he believed that the millions that these things cost are because certain individuals gain hugely monetarily and many jobs are created as well from allowing these things to go to full wild land fires. He said anything is possible but it would be unusual and very rare. However we have seen many fires started by either firemen wanting to get jobs going or individuals hoping to get on a fire crew that way. I would be wanting an investigation on a fire like Yarnell Hill to get the answer as to why this fire was not treated as an extreme emergency the minute smoke was seen–and in this case only minutes after the strike and reported. In fact more than one person looking to toward the Weavers out the American Legion window did actually see the strike and its immediate smoke.
The lack of effort here cost millions but worse, had some culpability toward the deaths of those 19 wild land fire fighters.
Truth needs no defense.
Regarding the Scott Norris conversation just below:
Quite awhile back, court filings revealed that Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini had rushed to Phoenix to relay reports to the AZ Attorney General and the AZ State Forester of Brendan’s description to Willis of the “argument” and some other previously (publicly) un-revealed conversations.
Like many others, I had to assume that the primary reason Paladini was taking that action, was to protect the City from any accusations that they had withheld this bombshell information. Paladini would NEVER take this sort of action on his own, and had to have acted at the behest of the City. One can also expect that, while his was third-hand information, the underlying information relayed was correct in it’s basic facts.
Therefore, there likely WAS an argument that occurred over the radio between Marsh and Steed when the crew was at the top of the bowl, and it got quite testy.
Regarding Norris and the rest of the crew-members, I think it was highly likely that it was not only Steed that had an issue with the descent, but that several other of the crew members DID speak-out against the descent as well, and that Steed was expressing both his and some of his crew-members objections during the argument with Marsh.
For whatever reason (MOST LIKELY, the various external factors that have been mentioned in this blog ad nauseam), Steed acquiesced, and was able to obtain same from the crew.
Therefore, I think it’s just a time-filler to speculate on who, if any, of the crew might have “spoken-out”, because I believe more than one of them did just that, with Steed in-turn, relaying his AND THEIR concerns, but finally letting the external and human factors pressure them into giving in.
As has been expressed in some of the comments below, THAT is the real issue that needs to be addressed for future firefighter safety, and the one that the government investigators repeatedly refuse to address.
Yeah the pressure all came from Marsh!
What a joke
Quick question.
When did Norris transfer to GMIHC?
Reply to calvin post on July 31, 2016 at 6:41 pm
>> calvin asked…
>>
>> When did Norris transfer to GMIHC?
2013 was his FIRST SEASON with “Granite Mountain”.
So whatever Scott Norris had ‘seen’ that was ALREADY making him ‘uncomfortable’ with Granite Mountain’s ‘decision making’ out on firelines… he had seen it quickly and even on just the first few fires he worked with them in 2013.
That ‘first season’ info was already contained up above in the reprint of that mini-bio on Norris which is the only time New York Time Phoenix correspondent-turned author Fernando Santos even mentions him in her book “The Fire Line”…
Here is Santos’ mini-bio for Scott Norris, as reprinted up above already…
From Page 19 of “The Fire Line”…
——————————————————————
Scott Norris, twenty-eight, and Dustin DeFord, twenty-four, though each in his FIRST YEAR with the Granite Mountain Hotshots, had fought wildfires for three seasons on other crews.
——————————————————————
Additional information that 2013 was, in fact, Scott Norris’ FIRST year with GM…
From the ‘obituaries’ for all 19 deceased GM Hotshots published by the New York Times…
Published: July 2, 2013 ( Just 48 hours after the tragedy )
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/07/02/us/firefighter-victims.html?_r=0#ScottNorris
———————————————————————–
Scott Norris, 28
Scott Norris did not need much to get by. A few years ago, he joined a hotshot crew in Payson, about two hours east of Prescott, and crashed in his truck during days off. He continued to live in Prescott, and this season ( 2013 ) he joined the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
———————————————————————–
Thamks and for clarity. The Doce fire was the first fire Marsh had led the cew on during 2013, correct?
Reply to calvin post on August 1, 2016 at 1:49 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> The Doce fire was the first fire Marsh had led
>> the crew on during 2013, correct?
Incorrect.
Eric Marsh had been ‘allowed’ to come off ‘light duty’ and resume his job as Superintendent of the Granite Mountain Hotshos in-between the Thompson Ridge and the Doce fire(s)… but on the day the Doce fire actually started… Marsh was getting hit truck fixed and he did NOT actually ‘dispatch’ with GM that afternoon to the start of the ‘Doce’ fire.
The Doce fire never went through any incremental ‘phases’ like some fires do. It went straight from ‘Initial Attack’ to a full-blown Type 1 ‘incident’, and local Tony Sciacca was the ‘Incident Commander’.
Sciacca made Eric Marsh a DIVS on the Doce fire… so between Marsh missing the first day because he was getting his truck fixed… and then serving as DIVS for the remainder of the ‘Doce’ fire… Eric Marsh never got to ‘work with’ or ‘lead’ his own GM crew for the entire duration of the Doce Fire.
Jesse Steed as ‘acting superintendent’ the whole time… but because Tom Cooley had already returned to his ‘structural firefighter’ job with the Prescott Fire Department… and because Marsh got ‘borrowed’ by Sciacca to be a DIVS… GM was ‘short’ the usual full contingent of crewmembers the whole time they were engaged with the ‘Doce’ fire of June, 2013.
So even though Marsh had been ‘restored’ to active duty as the ‘Superintendent’ of Granite Mountain in-between the Thomspon Ridge and Doce fires… he did not actually perform that role with this ‘new’ 2013 crew until the Yarnell Fire itself… and even THEN he gets ‘tapped’ to be DIVS just like at the ‘Doce’ fire.
From Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
—————————————————–
Steed rearranged Alpha and Bravo after Bunch’s and Renan’s departures, and Granite Mountain was a slightly different crew than they had been on Thompson Ridge. Marsh, who was getting his truck fixed and not with the hotshots when the Doce broke, was back in his superintendent’s position on Granite Mountain. Steed stepped back to captain, and Tom Cooley returned to structural firefighting.
Many townspeople knew of the Forest Service’s Prescott Hotshots, across town, but didn’t know that the city employed its own hotshots until the Doce— until Granite Mountain had protected an ancient Juniper tree on the flanks of its namesake peak. It was a great story. The Prescott Daily Courier ran an article about Granite Mountain’s efforts and talked to Marsh about what it was like to have saved the iconic tree. “It feels right, you know?” Marsh told the reporter. He hadn’t been there when the crew saved the juniper. During the first stages of the initial attack, the incident commander had tapped Marsh to oversee a division of the fire, and once again he hadn’t worked with Granite Mountain at all on the Doce. But he understood that the newspaper story wasn’t just about the tree.
—————————————————–
“…the incident commander ( Tony Sciacca ) had tapped Marsh to oversee a division of the fire, and once again he hadn’t worked with Granite Mountain at all on the Doce.”
It’s also interesting to NOTE that, according to Hotshot-turned-author Kyle Dickman… the ‘HERO’ stuff that appeared in the papers about GM ‘saving the Juniper Tree’ ( which Jesse Steed had actually just wanted to de-limb until someone stopped him ) wasn’t just some ‘recognition’. The way Dickman tells it… it was actually the FIRST TIME a lot of people in Prescott even became AWARE of the “Granite Mountain Hotshots”… just 12 days before they would all ( save one ) perish at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
So one still has to wonder if all that ‘HERO press’ just 12 days before Yarnell was any kind of ‘factor’ in the decision making that took place in Yarnell.
Eric Marsh himself had been INTERVIEWED for that “HERO press”.
Maybe ( just maybe ) he realized that nothing gets the ‘job done’ as far as making a case for the existence of this crew to the City Council like THAT kind of “PRESS”.
And maybe ( just maybe ) circa 3:45 PM on June 30, 2013, Eric Marsh felt that there were now “eyes on” Granite Mountain back in Prescott like never before… and that following June 30, 2013… there might only be TWO choices for a ‘headline’ back in Prescott…
1. “Granite Mountain crew that saved Juniper Tree at Doce fire sits it out in the black while the town of Yarnell burns down.”
** OR **
2. “Granite Mountain crew that saved Juniper Tree at Doce fire makes valiant effort to try and save the town of Yarnell”.
SOMETHING was PUSHING Eric Marsh to, in turn, PUSH those men under his command to make that risky, ill-advised move out of the safe black that day.
And it does remain ‘possible’ that he simply “Esse Quam Videried” those men right into their graves.
Slogans and Mottos CAN, in fact, KILL if you take them TOO seriously.
Lesson Learned?
I believe that there was pressure from above, whether it was reinforced on that day or not and that this pressure represented an existential threat to the GM IHC. The threat meant loss of income, possible loss of livelihood if they had no where else to go in WLFF, loss of a brotherhood. This was undoubtedly the main driver of the move off the saddle.
But I also believe that there was also a more proximal motivation. They must have thought that they had a chance of changing the outcome of the fire. Not a vague sense that they wanted to do “something” to help, but a specific plan to which they were (or thought they were) invited. Of course, I’m thinking of the “Hail Mary” plan much discussed in past chapters. The air attack was one aspect, as was the dozer line. GM would have participated to secure the dozer line. I have read the discussion about the evidence for and against the plan, so I don’t really want to rehash that here.
What I would like to do is ask the WLFFs out there if they can see a way that a useful fire break could have been constructed within a one to two hour period that would have protected Glen Isla or Yarnell from the fire. I ask because looking at the map, it looks like such a line would have been too long (over a mile) over a boulder field choked with chaparral. Even if they were trying to improve a road like Shrine Rd., how many miles, or chains, or yards could one dozer and a full hand crew do?
I know there wasn’t any time at all, so let’s assume they had lots of time and the fire wasn’t nipping at the edge of town, but do assume that the line needed to resist the flames that might have been expected to make their way through the area, let’s say 20-30 ft to be conservative, coming at a 90 degree angle from the original fire ahead of a 40 mile/hr. wind. I’m just trying to get a handle on what might have been doable.
Does this question even make sense?
By the time GM moved it was to fucking late to build line with or without a cat.
There was just no time for such a plan to be accomplished.
The wind predictions absolutely eliminated any such thoughts or plan.
The time of day the fuel and the temp & humidity were against them and the time they would need.
The finale thing you can not make a frontal attack on a fire moving at that magnitude. It is pure and simple suicide. Even for a tractor 100 plus flame lengths and spotting YOU DO NOT MAKE A FRONTAL ATTACK ON A WILDFIRE………………………………………………
Doable—- would have been a plan to build line to protect the Towns the first thing in the morning that should have been the original goal before the fire became active in the early afternoon. The towns should have been evacuated at first light. They needed at least 3 dozers backed with hand crews.
YAP HIND SITE IS 20/20 but that should have been the plan. As it was they really had no plan and people almost died and 19 did………………….
Muzzy,
Given the totality of conditions, (hot, dry, windy weather; fuel age, fuel loading, fuel moisture condition, topography alignment, very high Energy Release Components, and much more) and your spatial and temporal time frames, NO WAY.
The flame lengths, intense spotting, and thermal heat impulses would have been most troublesome.
There are Southern CA fires that have spotted over 8 lane freeways.
With MUCH lighter winds, MAYBE.
Turn the sound off and just watch this YouTube video of an Ember Attack in about 20 mph winds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzqC_8D12U0
MOST of those clips represent probably EXACTLY what things looked like there ‘on the ground’ in Yarnell as the fire was ‘coming in’ to the Glen Ilah area.
Embers blowing ACROSS even PAVED ‘roads’ and ‘firebreaks’.
Ok, so It sounds like a consensus of two WLFFs and an AI machine that no reasonable WLFF would have seriously considered a Hail Mary plan. Let’s assume that Marsh/Steed were in that category. The only thing I can envision is that GM thought they could get better PR if they rode out the fire in an emergency safety zone at the ranch rather than the real one up on the hill. At least it would look like they had tried to save structures.
Muzzy,
I think your “GM thought they could get better PR if they rode out the fire in an emergency safety zone at the ranch rather than the real one up on the hill. At least it would look like they had tried to save structures” conclusion is very feasible.
It would at least have indicated intent to do so and goes along with Willis’ statement at the July 2013 News Conference that ” … no [WFF] is satisfied sitting there [in a S/Z] and watching the fire progress without … taking some action …” and “they protected themselves as a last resort.”
Bob,
I agree there was no plan, at least on the south end of the fire, but they also had few resources. They had not three, but one dozer, with a non-red-carded operator who needed a lot of help. It sounds like they were working too close to town, too, but wthdik.
If they had all the time and resources they needed, how long would it have taken to build a line that was two miles long parallel to the retardant drop shown on the maps?
2 or 3 Tractors with crew backup 2 to 3 hours and burn out before noon. The fire was creeping until after 3 pm.
That would include tractor line around BSR to the Desert side south end including the Tractor line put in to peoples Valley.
Several different ways to contain the fire and sacrifice acres of Brush.
This State fire was a total disorganized mess with homes that close they should have evacuated that morning. and planned a control line above all the homes That should have been a priority.
For Example the Fire this year they fired out behind residences and saved structures a Tractor line could have done the same for Yarnell/Glen Isla with a burn out..
The one tractor left them with little else to do I think the non Fire operator did not help either.
Bob said, “2 or 3 Tractors with crew backup 2 to 3 hours and burn out before noon. The fire was creeping until after 3 pm.”
Thanks Bob. I have long wondered if there ever had been an action that might have saved Yarnell, and utilized the crew. All of those resources thrown at an indefensible ranch when this could have been wrapped up before lunch.
Agreed about the fire management this year; while it lacked finesse, it was at least aggressive and (except for losing power and cell service) effective.
During an active fire, would anyone have had to get permission from property owners to doze, remove fences, etc.? RTS quoted some laws below, and I wasn’t sure what they would mean to a fire like YHF.
The state has authority to fight fire on private land within the State. A fire has no boundaries you put in line where you have to, to stop the progress.
Again my above statements while 20/20 hind site are what I would have looked at in the planning for day shift after the fire mad the run on Saturday evening.
I have looked at the futality first of putting line where GM was assigned. By Futality I am looking at the obvious they would be above a heavy fuel bead, the main burning is to the north and east of them. A good chance the fire could run back to the south and under the crew and all the work they did would be worthless. Peoples Valley and the homes out there were still In a threat situation. Nothing but open fuel bed from there all the way into Yarnell.
The main priority should have been to secure the towns and out lying property first.
If there is even a small threat that the fire would burn towards Yarnell all effort should have been to evacuate Yarnell and Glen Isla ASAP.
Get tractors and 3 or 4 crews by 0800 along with Engines for structure protection those orders needed to be priority.
Then start building a line between the fire and the structures. Keep what was in peoples valley doing structure protection.
Determine the best location for the line minimum 3 blades wide. Build and fire out before the afternoon winds. Use Air Tankers to work directly on the Burning areas close to structures as well as pin point with Helicopters. and support the Peoples Valley area. I think that would have had a 80% chance of success. and saved most of the structures.
Now the real question is could they have gotten those resources in time to do the job.
If not then the main priority was evacuate and build line to protect what you could.
Scattering the crews from hell to breakfast would not accomplish the town protection.
But that is what this IC did with out an evaluation of priorities.
If you have time to evacuate you should start 24 hours out.
Keeping the fire out of structures should have been the priority. You want HS Crews to protect structures that is the time to do it not when the fire is already running at the Town.
By o800 that morning they had a 6 or 7 hour window to contain the fire and keep it out of Yarnell.
If they did not have line in by 1500 they were in deep shit.
That is exactly what happened.
They were never prepared for what happened nor was the town.
Crews scattered with unrealistic warning points.
It was like they had never been on a Brush Fire and were not prepared for the high burning rates.
The weather forecast kicked them in the ass and destroyed a town and killing 19 Fire Fighters.
Why????? Their shift plan was totally out of whack. It was a disaster waiting to happen and it did.
Calvin,
The pressure did NOT all come from Marsh
Calvin, reread my comments.
At no point do I imply that the pressure all came from Marsh.
Simply stated, Marsh and the crew were ALL under the same pressures exerted upon them by the external and/or human factors.
TTWARE,
RE: “Like many others, I had to assume that the primary reason Paladini was taking that action, was to protect the City from any accusations that they had withheld this bombshell information. Paladini would NEVER take this sort of action on his own, and had to have acted at the behest of the City. One can also expect that, while his was third-hand information, the underlying information relayed was correct in it’s basic facts.”
I would like to propose an alternative to this scenario, that is, that Willis thought that the revelation would shield him, the PFD, the city, and even the state, from liability.
The natural inclination of the public and probably the families is to assume what ADOSH eventually ruled, that the deaths were the result of management errors. They don’t necessarily think of hotshots as having the independence to refuse orders or modify their tasks as the fire develops. By switching the focus to the men themselves, Willis could serve his and his superior’s interests by deflecting the blame to the men.
Until we can be assured that the external pressures can be fully examined, revealing the crew interactions alone will present an unbalanced and ultimately untrue picture of the forces at work. I don’t see a way to get management to talk, though. A criminal investigation would have subpoena power, but there is little evidence that a criminal act took place, and besides, the targets could take the 5 Th. You could offer blanket immunity, but there is no body that could justify a costly inquiry just to find the truth. If the hotshots had been part of a union, the union might have the power to sue the Arizona Forestry Department, but there is no union.
We are at an impasse.
You might argue that they would release the information immediately, but I would reply that they would keep it in reserve. First off, making the GMHS look bad would work against the knee-jerk narrative that they were heroes. This narrative is often imployed by management to deflect blame for poor equipment, training, or work rules. It’s their go to strategy for keeping the families in line. Even before any details are revealed, management takes the defense posture
Next, if any family members get too feisty, they can remind them that their family members will lose hero status if the truth is revealed. Information is power, and you have more power if you don’t use it.
Muzzy,
What you say here makes sense.
Thanks Diane,
The recent dozer rollover tragedy in Big Sur (SobranesFire discussed below) has this in common with the Yarnell Hill Fire. Soon after the accident we find that the victim was “competitive” (read: foolhardy). Family fears that he will be blamed, and co-workers fear retribution, so they are mum on all the workplace stories they heard before he died that indicate irresponsible management by CalFire. Investigation determines no one was at fault. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Muzzy,
Just to add to the discussion & maybe play devil’s advocate a little (disclaimer: I do not trust management in general):
There was a dozer rollover fatality on a CalFire fire. In the initial stages of the state’s rolling out of the ‘damage control machine,’ it is discovered that the operator enjoyed motorsports racing. Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! He was ‘competitive.’ Perfect! Now roll with it!!!
See how that works? Is it automatically a contributing factor? Should it be?
What person in the history of motorsports ISN’T competitive? They’re not just going for a leisurely Sunday drive around the track.
Woodthoughts
Woodsman,
Are you pulling my leg? I think the fire you’re talking about is the Soberanes Fire, same one I’m talking about. Or am I confused?
Muzzy,
I’m talking about the fire with the rolled dozer fatality. Isn’t that the one where the operator was a race car driver and known to be competitive?
Woodsman
Yes, the Soberanes Fire north of Big Sur, was the one I was referring to in my reply to Diane. You said you were playing devil’s advocate but then agreed with me. I’m confused…
Muzzy,
I did that on purpose to see test you. Nah, that’s a lie. I didn’t understand exactly what you were saying. I do now. So I change my post from ‘devil’s advocate’ to ‘member of the united front.’
Thanks!
Wood
Woodsman said, “Is it automatically a contributing factor? Should it be?”
In my experience, race car drivers can be aggressive, but winners are often disciplined, analytical, and controlled. Some seem to interpret his racing as indicating that he was foolhardy and sloppy. And even if he was a street racer, that does not reflect on his work life. It just seems to me that the character assassination machine is in full force, while the investigation of the actual incident is DOA.
Muzzy,
I definitely agree with what you just said…and it’s not my innocent and harmless crush I have on you talking either.
Seriously though, that’s a great point!
I don’t believe the FACT that Reagan is/was being described by people who knew him ( as in… the owner of the Speedway where he raced ) as “intesely competitive” is part of any ‘official’ reports about anything that happened on the Soberanes fire. Not yet, anyway.
It’s just a ‘personality trait’ that was, in fact, being MENTIONED by people who knew him well.
Whether he was ‘pushing the envelope’ out there in the DARK on that Soberanes fire behind the controls of that dozer the way he would when out on the ‘dirt track’ is hard to say… since we still don’t even know what the ‘envelope’ is or even ‘looks like’.
As in… what the actual CIRCUMSTANCES of his death really entailed.
We’ll just have to wait for more ‘information’ about the actual fatal accident to emerge.
The particular information involved is reportedly known by quite a few individuals, those that actually heard it, even more that have heard it from those individuals, and still even more through the grapevine.
The fact the Brendan was potentially at the point of becoming unhinged by sitting on the info for so long, and the fact that he wanted “to get it off his chest” immediately, leads one to believe that this info IS NOT something, of which, the City would have control over it’s release, simply to use as leverage.
The City’s only play was to get rid of this red-hot potato.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
post on August 1, 2016 at 12:25 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> The particular information involved is reportedly known
>> by quite a few individuals, those that actually heard it, even
>> more that have heard it from those individuals, and still
>> even more through the grapevine.
Correct.
When Brendan chose to meet with Darrell Willis and get things ‘off his chest’… Darrell Willis was STILL the official “Prescott Wildland Division Chief’ in the employ of the City of Prescott Fire Department and the City of Prescott itself.
This wasn’t just Brendan ‘unloading’ to a ‘buddy’ on a barstool.
He chose to ‘unload’ to someone who was then going to have ‘official’ responsibilities regarding the information itself.
Willis certainly knew that… and Brendan himself must have known that as well.
Sure enough… once Willis heard what Brendan had to say ( and would later describe it as ‘shocking’ to him )… Willis TOLD Brendan…
“This can’t just stay with me”
Willis then gave Brendan the weekend to ‘do the right thing’ and contact they ongoing investigator(s) HIMSELF to offer the same ‘shocking’ information he had just imparted to Willis.
But he also informed Brendan that if he ( Brendan ) did NOT do that within a few days… Willis would do what he was now REQUIRED to do ( having learned of the information in his official capacity as Prescott Wildland Division Chief ) and he would ‘report it up the chain’ himself.
Willis would later explain that the reason he gave McDonough that ‘ultimatum’ was because based on the importance of the ‘information’… it was BEST that it NOT be reported from a ‘third party’ perspective.
The BEST thing was for McDonough to report it to officials himself.
But McDonough didn’t do that.
It’s hard to say what Brendan might have even THOUGHT was going to happen when he even first contacted Darrell Willis and told him there were things he wanted to “get off his chest”.
Did McDonough just think he was going to be able to ‘confess’ to the official Prescott Wildland Division Chief… and that HE ( Brendan ) would then simply ‘feel better’ and that would be the end of it?
It’s also very possible that during that conversation… Willis himself most likely ASKED Brendan how, exactly, he had HEARD this ‘argument’ between Jesse Steed and Marsh.
And Brendan might have simply said…
“Well… me and the other Blue Ridge guys were moving the GM trucks around to the Youth Camp… and it just came over the Crew-Net radio in the trucks.”
So even as Brendan is relating this story to Willis it might have become perfectly clear to Willis that Brendan was not the ONLY person who was hearing that traffic over the GM Crew-Net radio.
This part about ‘Blue Ridge’ was even in the original ‘story’ as told by Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini who, to this day, had never had ANY reason to be ‘making any of this up’.
The Arizona Republic – AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Yarnell fire: New account of hotshot deaths
Published: 11:49 p.m. MST April 3, 2015
By: Robert Anglen, Dennis Wagner and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2015/04/04/yarnell-fire-new-account-hotshot-deaths/25284535/
Here again is EXACTLY what Prescott City Attorney Jon Paldini told AZCENTRAL Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Wills told him…
——————————————————————
While moving vehicles with the Blue Ridge crew, McDonough allegedly overheard radio traffic between Marsh and Steed, who was with 17 crew members atop a ridge that had burned days earlier.
In the radio call, Marsh told Steed to leave the “black,” which was safe, and join him at the ranch. Steed protested, saying such a move would be dangerous. The radio exchange turned into a dispute.
“My understanding of the argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed … was that Steed did not want to go down,” Paladini said.
According to Paladini’s account, Steed objected until Marsh gave him a direct order to descend.
——————————————————————
Notice it STARTS with… “While moving vehicles with the Blue Ridge crew”.
There is no way either Paladini or Willis could have been ‘imagineering’ that part.
It has to be an accurate description of the TIMEFRAME in which Brendan McDonough himself was telling Willis he ‘heard’ this alleged ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed.
So it remains pretty much a given that if Brendan heard that radio traffic coming over the GM Crew Net while he was in the GM Superintendent truck… then the OTHER THREE Blue Ridge Hotshot ‘drivers’ who were moving the OTHER THREE Granite Mountain vehicles heard the same thing, at the same time Brendan did.
To this day… there are BLACKOUTS in many of the publicly released ‘Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit Logs’ which COULD match this same timeframe and be mentioning ‘hearing’ this alleged ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> The City’s only play was to get rid of this red-hot potato.
As mentioned above… the conversation between McDonough and Willis wasn’t just two guys talking on barstools.
McDonough had ‘come in’ to meet Prescott’s Wildland Division Chief face-to-face in order to ‘get this off his chest’… and Willis knew full well that once this information was imparted to him the City itself now had ‘liabilities’ and HE, himself, a ‘responsibility’ to get that information to the proper authorities.
Ditto for Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini.
Willis didn’t ‘meet him on a barstool’, either.
Willis gave Brendan the ‘benefit of the doubt’ and time to ‘do the right thing’ himself, but when Brendan did NOT ‘do the right thing’… Willis ‘officially’ contacted the Prescott City Attorney as the proper ‘next step’ in the process and was now acting in his official capacity as ‘Prescott Wildland Division Chief’ reporting an important matter to the ‘Prescott City Attorney Attorney’.
Jon Paladini also knew that he, himself, could not ‘sit’ on this information, and that even HE now had ‘responsibilities’ to help this information reach the proper authorities.
Yes… it was a ‘hot potato’.
Paladini and Willis BOTH knew that they might have to answer for it if they had chosen to ‘sit’ on that information and that THEIR ‘actions’ ( as employees of the City of Prescott acting in their official capacities for the City ) would reflect on the City itself.
Indeed… even Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini said that the minute the information was being imparted to HIM by Prescott City Employee Darrell Willis, he knew it was important enough that he actually sent a MEMO about it directly to all the members of the Prescott City Council.
The ‘public’ has never been allowed to see that ‘memo’ itself.
Paladini and the City of Prescott continue to assert that the contents of that memo are protected from any ‘Arizona Open Records Laws’ requests because it falls into the ‘Attorney / Client’ privilege exemption category.
IF AND ONLY IF the individual BRHS’s driving the GMHS Crew Carriers were monitoring the GMHS Crew Net. We know that McDonough was listening to the GMHS Crew Net.
IT WAS HIS CREW! He had a vested interest in keeping up with what they were talking about. He most likely wanted to keep up with how the ‘Discussing our options’ GMHS Crew Net radio transmissions were progressing.
I believe we’ve already had this discussion… and it ended up being affectionately referred to as the “You don’t fuck with truck” conversation.
In other words… if someone asks you to just ‘move their vehicle’… then all you do is get in it… pull the keys from under the floor mat ( or wherever else you were told to find them )… start it up… drive it from point A to point B… put the keys right back where you found them… get out… walk away.
You don’t ‘mess’ with the radios or their settings ( either CB or FM or anything else ).
So if the GM vehicle onboard radios were set to just ‘come on’ when the ignition is cranked… then it remains HIGHLY LIKELY that the Blue Ridge Hotshots who were driving all the OTHER GM vehicles heard the same GM Crew-Net conversation(s) that Brendan heard during that time they were all ‘moving’ the vehicles.
It also remains a fact that not only did Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown testify in his own typed ( and signed ) ‘Unit Log’ that the GM radio just ‘came on’ and was preset to the GM Crew-Net channel when HE cranked up the GM Chase Truck… Brown testified that not did he LISTEN to that channel… he actually picked up the onboard microphone and pressed TRANSMIT and had an extended conversation WITH Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed over the GM Crew-Net regarding WHERE they were actually taking all the GM vehicles.
There are actually FOUR potential ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ that might have heard the same things Brendan did that day over the GM Crew-Net.
Trueheart Brown WAS driving the GM Chase Truck… and he DID use the onboard radio and G Crew-Net to actually TALK to Steed and Marsh… but that was only for the short time he was in the GM Chase Truck and driving it DOWN from where it had been parked that morning to the ‘grassy clearing’ where both the GM and Blue Ridge Crew Carriers were parked.
Once Trueheart Brown reached that ‘clearing’… he got OUT of the GM Chase Truck and ‘passed it off’ to ANOTHER Blue Ridge Hotshot ( identity still unknown ) who would then be the one to finish driving that GM Chase truck the rest of the way down through Glen Ilah, north on Hwy 89, west on Shrine Road, and then out to the new parking location at the Youth Camp.
So that makes FOUR Blue Ridge Hotshots who assisted in ‘moving’ those GM vehicles and MAY have heard the same GM Crew-Net conversations that Brendan did in that ‘timeframe’.
Whoops. TYPO up above. Left the word ‘only’ out.
Paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
“Brown testified that not ONLY did he LISTEN to that GM Crew-Net channel… he actually picked up the onboard microphone and pressed TRANSMIT and had an extended conversation WITH Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed over the GM Crew-Net regarding WHERE they were actually taking all the GM vehicles.”
WTKTT,
You posted: “So if the GM vehicle onboard radios were set to just ‘come on’ when the ignition is cranked… then it remains HIGHLY LIKELY that the Blue Ridge Hotshots who were driving all the OTHER GM vehicles heard the same GM Crew-Net conversation(s) that Brendan heard during that time they were all ‘moving’ the vehicles.”
This is where I disagree with you.
will concede that it was POSSIBLE that the BRHS driving the GMHS crew carriers were listening to their crew Net and that’s as far as I will go.
I hear ya… but just to be clear…
Are you saying you just flat-out think it was IMPOSSIBLE for ANY of those Blue Ridge Hotshots to have heard anything on the GM Crew-Net radio that day… no matter what?
And is that just what you THINK… or are you saying you know if for a fact ( since everyone knows that you know some/all of the Blue Ridge people )?
WTKTT,
This is what I posted: “I will concede that it is POSSIBLE that the BRHS driving the GMHS crew carriers were listening to their crew Net and that’s as far as I will go.”
The word impossible is not in there.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
post on August 2, 2016 at 8:35 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> This is what I posted: “I will concede
>> that it is POSSIBLE that the BRHS
>> driving the GMHS crew carriers
>> were listening to their crew Net
>> and that’s as far as I will go.”
>>
>> The word impossible is not in there.
I just realized that I completely misunderstood what you meant by ‘their crew Net’.
I actually thought what you meant was that the only thing you will admit to being POSSIBLE is that the Blue Ridge FFs were listening to their OWN Crew-Net…. and NOT the Crew-Net belonging to GM, in the timeframe in question.
I see now that was never the case.
That you ARE admitting it WAS ‘possible’ they ( the Blue Ridge Hotshots involved ) heard some/all of the same GM Crew-Net conversations that Brendan did in that same timeframe.
I ( personally ) still remain ‘one-rung-higher’ than you on that ladder, however.
I ( personally ) still believe it was not only POSSIBLE… but HIGHLY LIKELY.
**
** SCOTT NORRIS – TRAINING, ETC.
>> On July 30, 2016 at 9:14 am, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>> He ( deceased GM Hotshot Scott Norris ) was trained as a PAYSON HOT
>> SHOT; by Supt. Schinstock and all the other Payson Hot Shots.
The ‘documented’ PROOF of that has always been sitting in the evidence record.
Pretty much ALL of GM Hotshot Scott Norris’ ‘certifications’ for Wildland Firefighting were ‘signed off on’ by either the Payson Hotshots Superintendet ( Mike Schinstock ) or the Payson Hotshots Assistant Superintendent.
From public evidence document: “Scott Norris Training-Experience Records.pdf”
Which is HERE in the public evidence folder…
ADOSH / Yarnell Hill Investigation / City of Prescott Fire — GMHS / Training Records / Scott Norris
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAAcI_DXISP7pyCFqh146hvja/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/City%20of%20Prescott%20Fire%20–%20GMHS/Training%20Records/Scott%20Norris?dl=0
The NAMES at the ends of these ‘training records’ for Scott Norris indicate who his official ‘instructor’ was… and who ‘signed off’ on those classes/qualifications…
——————————————————————————
** From the scanned images of Scott Norris’ ‘signed’ Training Certificates…
04/18/2004 – Basic Wildland-40 Hours S-130, S190, I-100 – Tim McElwee
04/14/2009 – S212 Wildland Fire Chain Saws – Mike Schinstock, Supt., Payson Hotshots
04/16/2009 – S211 Portable Pumps and Water Use – Mike Schinstock, Supt., Payson Hotshots
05/11/2009 – S270 Basic Air Operations – Mike Schinstock, Supt., Payson Hotshots
05/20/2009 – S131 Advanced Firefighter / Squad Boss – Mike Schinstock, Supt., Payson Hotshots
05/21/2009 – S133 Look Up, Look Down, Look Around – Mike Schinstock, Supt., Payson Hotshots
05/27/2009 – S215 Fire Operations in the Wildland/Urban Interface – Mike Schinstock, Supt., Payson Hotshots
07/25/2009 – S-231 Engine Boss – Robert Rick / Payson Az.
04/25/2010 – S134 LCES – ( ? David B. W?? ) – Asst. Supt. Payson IHC
06/05/2010 – L280 Followership to Leadership – ( ? David B. W?? ) Asst. Supt. Payson IHC
07/09/2010 – S230 Crew Boss ( Single Resource ) – ( ? David B. W?? ) – Asst. Supt. Payson IHC
03/15/2011 – S290A Intermediate Wildland Fire Behavior – Bill Jackson, Arizona Wildfire & Incident Management Academy, Prescott, AZ
** From the scanned images of Scott Norris’ ‘signed’ TASKBOOKS…
Position: Firefighter Type 1 ( FFT1 )
Trainee Name: Scott Norris
Home Unit/Agency: Payson R.D. TNF USDA
Official’s name: Mike Schinstock
Home Unit Title: IHC Superintendent
Date Initiated: 07 / 01 / 2009
Evaluation 1
Evaluator’s Name: Joe Behrens
Evaluator’s Home Unit Title: IHC Squad Leader
Evaluator’s Home Unit/Agency: AZ-TNF Payson R.D.
Evaluation Date: 09 / 04 / 2010
Agency Certification
Certifying Official’s Name: Donald R. Nunley
Certifying Official’s Title: Acting District Ranger
Certifying Official’s Home Unit/Agency: Tonto NF, Payson R.D.
Certification Date: 06 / 16 / 11
——————————————————————————-
>> On July 29, 2016 at 6:49 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) also wrote…
>>
>> I guess I am “offering completely unsupported claims regarding why [I]
>> “think” he did anything other than die as a sheep and a victim of Groupthink”
>> because he was a PAYSON HOT SHOT; and Schinstock and all the other Payson
>> Hot Shots trained in the PAYSON HOT SHOT ‘Old School’ way and so Norris would
>> have and/or should have been the one(s) stepping up and opposing it.
>>
>> PAYSON HOT SHOTS back when and now are NOT Goupthinkers!
>>
>> PAYSON HOT SHOT were trained to think independently AND as a Crew.
>>
>> They encouraged their FF’s to speak up if they didn’t like something about
>> a plan or whatever.
>>
>> As I posted earlier, Norris shared with his fellow Payson HS supervisors
>> and friends during the 2013 fire season, that he felt uncomfortable
>> about some of the things the GMHS did on fires.
>>
>> So, yes it is conjecture on my part, however, I strongly feel that Norris
>> AND OTHERS would have been the one(s) speaking up about the GMHS plan
>> to leave the black.
>>
>> And I believe that Billy Warneke would have as well based on what he wife said.
>>
>> Obviously, others did not feel that way and/or they were told to shut up and/or
>> they were threatened and.or intimidated, whatever – they all went down together.
Scott Norris and Billy Warneke were in the SAME SQUAD ( ‘Bravo’ squad ) together that day in Yarnell… June 30, 2013.
Norris had started the 2013 season in ‘Alpha’ squad of Granite Mountain, but when GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch left GM early in the 2013 season… ‘Squad A’ boss Clayton Whitted MOVED Scott Norris from ‘Alpha’ squad over to ‘Bravo’ squad.
From Former-Hotshot-turned-author Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
——————————————————————————
Following Brandon Bunch’s departure from GM… Clayton Whitted, Squad Boss of ‘Alpha’ squad, had moved Sean Misner to Alpha to be Granite McKee’s new ‘battle buddy’. Scott Norris and Joe Thurston shifted to ‘Bravo’ squad to replace Brandon Bunch.
——————————————————————————
Ex-Marine William ‘Billy’ Warneke was already in ‘Bravo’ squad from the START of the 2013 season… so that means that following Brandon Bunch’s departure… and on through Yarnell… Warneke and Scott Norris were BOTH in ‘Bravo’ squad.
So if William ‘Billy’ Warneke had been ‘speaking up’ and disagreeing with the ‘Groupthink’ and the planned move ( as his wife is sure he would have ), and if Scott Norris was doing the SAME thing ( as you assert he would have been TRAINED to do )… then those ‘voices’ would have BOTH been coming from the ‘same SQUAD’ ( ‘Bravo’ squad ) up on that ridge.
But as you said above… even if they had BOTH been ‘voicing their dissent’ that day… someone obviously just told them to SHUT UP and ‘follow orders’…. and ( tragically )…. they DID.
Speaking of ‘Scott Norris’ and the ‘Payson Hotshots’ and author ‘Kyle Dickman’…
As it turns out… unlike the other TWO books that have been published… Kyle Dickman wrote a LOT about ‘Scott Norris’ in HIS book, AND his time with the Payson Hotshots, AND Kyle Dickman himself ALSO talked about Payson IHC Superintendent Mike Schinstock.
Accordiing to Kyle Dickman, and the people who knew Scott Norris best ( family, friends, etc. )…
1. Scott Norris was not just ‘familiar’ with previous Wildland Fire ‘burnover’ incidents… he was a STUDENT of them.
2. Before even transferring to GM… Scott Norris could recite the 10 and 18 from memory… anytime… anywhere.
3. Even though Norris was ‘new’ to ‘Granite Mountain’… he was already known to have been saying “That’s not how we do things on Payson”… but he was also known to not ‘elaborate’ or talk much about any of his prior experience(s) or ‘training’.
4. Scott Norris had also come to respect Jesse Steed and was not in the habit of questioning HIS decisions.
Here is just one ‘passage’ from Kyle Dickman’s book where he talks about Scott Norris…
WARNING: There is a passage from the book below that contains a GRAPHIC description of a photograph that Payson IHC Mike Schinstock showed the Payson Hotshots when they ‘visited’ the site of the ‘Dude’ fire. You have been WARNED.
From the very start of ‘Chapter 9 – Lessons Learned’…
———————————————————————————-
Scott Norris had been on summer break from elementary school back when the Dude Fire exploded in 1990, but he knew the story.
When Scott worked for the Payson Hotshots, Superintendent Mike Schinstock took the crew to the fire site to see how “a bad day ends,” as he’d tell his hotshots. They walked the route that Bachman and five others had followed to their deaths two decades earlier. In the wake of the tragedy, the residents of Bonita Creek subdivision planted six cottonwoods among the bleached ponderosa stumps that now fill Walk Moore Canyon, and in the shade of those trees are six stone crosses, each one marking the place where a firefighter died.
Standing before the crosses, it’s hard not not to imagine the canyon engulfed in flames.
Schinstock asked his hotshots to do more.
He passed around a picture taken the evening of June 26, 1990. It showed burned and twisted bodies, smoke still rising from the ash around them.
Think about what choices the Perryville crew made and why they made them, Schinstock asked of his men. And what, if anything, you might have done differently to change the outcome.
Since then, Scott had studied tragedy fires.
At home on his shelves, beside the books he devoured during the rare quiet moments of summer, were copies of hundred-page investigations into firefighter deaths. State or federal agencies fund these reports, which are compiled by teams of dozens of subject-matter experts ranging from psychologists to weathermen and fire-behavior experts. They use dozens of witness testimonials to piece together the events that led to the fatalities.
Though these reports are filed every time a firefighter dies on the line, Scott’s interest lay specifically in burnovers, the grisly deaths that occur when flames overtake firefighters.
He knew the details of the Dude Fire and most of the other historically significant mass tragedies.
The ten Standard Firefighting Orders and the eighteen Watchout Situations are known by firefighters as the Ten and Eighteen, and these rules of engagement provide the basis for all fire-line decisions. Most firefighters carry a laminated list of the orders in their breast pocket. Scott did. He could also recite the directives from memory.
Superintendent Mike Schinstock was disappointed when Scott told him he was leaving the Payson Hotshots. He saw in Scott the trappings of a career fireman and had started grooming him for a leadership position shortly after Scott started with Payson.
By the time Scott came to Granite Mountain, his fire-line qualifications rivaled those of the crew’s squad bosses. Though he ( Norris ) often said, “That’s not how we do things on Payson,” he was thrilled to get the job, and he came to greatly respect Steed in the months he worked under him. Scott didn’t talk much about his previous experience. But his quiet confidence and amiable personality made him a natural role model for Granite Mountain’s rookies. Kevin Woyjeck, like many of the younger guys on the crew, looked up to Scott. Woyjeck reminded Scott of a younger cousin— eager to the point of annoyance, a little brother he couldn’t help but like. Woyjeck had peppered Scott with questions throughout the season, but the queries reached a dizzying barrage before Granite Mountain left for its first extended fire assignment.
———————————————————————————-
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…
** SCOTT NORRIS – TRAINING, ETC. – ( Continued from previous message… )
Hotshot-turned-author Kyle Dickman really did have complete access, when he was writing HIS book, to people like Payson Hotshot Supt. Mike Schinstock, Scott Norris’ parents and his sister, and Scott’s long-time girlfriend Heather Kennedy.
The media and even the SAIT talked a LOT about the ‘text message’ that Wade Parker had sent from that ‘final rest spot’ on the ridge, circa 4:04 PM, but very little mention was ever made of ANOTHER ‘text message’ that was sent ( by Scott Norris himself ) to his girlfriend Heather about 10 full minutes BEFORE that now-famous ‘Wade Parker’ text + photo.
Kyle Dickman was ‘provided’ with a copy of that text message by Heather Kennedy herself and it read as follows…
From the ‘photos’ and ‘text messages’ part of Kyle Dickman’s book…
———————————————————————-
( PHOTO OF THE FIRELINE TAKEN FROM THE ‘REST SPOT’ AT 3:54 PM )
For reasons that remain unclear, Granite Mountain left the safety of the already burned vegetation for a ranch near the town of Yarnell. Minutes before the fateful decision was made, hotshot Scott Norris texted this photo to his girlfriend, Heather Kennedy, along with the following note:
“This fire is going to shit burning all over and expected + 40 hr wind gusts from a t-storm outflow. Possibly going to burn some ranches and house. SCOTT NORRIS.”
———————————————————————-
Scott Norris KNEW ( at 3:54 PM )…
“This fire is going to SHIT burning ALL OVER.”
If Scott already knew that, from that vantage point up on the ridge, then the others ALL knew it as well.
And notice also that Scott Norris told Heather ( at 3:54 PM ) that the “+40 hr wind gusts from t-storm outflow” were still EXPECTED, and the worst of it had NOT HAPPENED YET.
But they all ( Norris included ) still ended up ‘agreeing’ to leave the ‘safe black’.
In his ‘Credits’ section… Kyle Dickman confirmed that Heather Kennedy herself ( who received that text message from Scott ) had PROVIDED it to him…
———————————————————————–
Heather Kennedy described the weather in Prescott and PROVIDED her text message conversations with Scott Norris.
———————————————————————–
And here is something else from the CREDITS section of Kyle Dickman’s book with regards to Scott Norris and what he had told Heather Kennedy.
Scott Norris CONFIRMED to Heather what a CLOSE CALL Brendan McDonough and Christopher MacKenzie had had on the Doce Fire, when they almost burned themselves to death with their own ‘bad decision making; on the Doce Fire, just 12 days before Yarnell…
————————————————————————-
During a visit to the Doce Fire site with McDonough in November 2013, Donut told me the story about his close call and took me to the juniper, where he explained how the crew had saved the tree.
Heather Kennedy, who heard of the incident from Scott Norris, confirmed the severity of McDonough’s close call ( at the Doce fire ).
————————————————————————-
“Heather Kennedy, who heard of the incident from Scott Norris, CONFIRMED the SEVERITY of McDonough’s close call ( at the Doce fire )..”
So McDonough and MacKenzie really DID almost ‘burn themselves to death” just 12 days before Yarnell with their own ‘bad decision making’… and it was BAD enough that Scott Norris had definitely DISCUSSED it with HER right after it happened and just days before he, himself, would lose his own life due to bad decision making on the part of the “Granite Mountain Hoshots” organization.
** THE ‘OTHER BOOKS’
The two OTHER books that have been published ( so far, anyway ) about the Yarnell Hill hardly mention former Payson Hotshot and Granite Mountain Hotshot Scott Norris at all.
** THE FERNANDA SANTOS BOOK – “THE FIRE LINE”
Like Brendan McDonough and HIS book, author Fernanda Santos really never mentions Scott Norris at all except for just once or twice.
The only real reference to Norris is when she was ‘introducing’ all the Hotshots at the start of her book with ‘mini-bios’.
Here is Santos’ mini-bio for Scott Norris…
Page 19
———————————————————-
Scott Norris, twenty-eight, and Dustin DeFord, twenty-four, though each in his first year with the Granite Mountain Hotshots, had fought wildfires for three seasons on other crews. Norris was a gentle workhorse, swinging a tool or wielding a saw with the deliberate discipline of a man who knew that everybody working a fire had to pull their weight. He liked to write, loved to hunt, and laughed at his own jokes, which often involved speaking with a faux Scottish accent. He had moved to work and live closer to his girlfriend, Heather, a Prescott police officer.
———————————————————-
The ONLY other time Santos mentions Norris in the actual ‘narrative’ part of her book was then one quick reference to one of the ‘text’ messages that she says Scott Norris had sent from Yarnell circa 3:54 PM on June 30, 2013…
…and guess what? No surprise… Santos couldn’t even get THAT reference right.
The text message SHE is referring to is the one that was sent by Wade Parker… NOT Scott Norris. See above for the one that Scott Norris ACTUALLY sent to Heather Kennedy, at 3:54 PM.
Page 134
————————————————-
High on the mountain, Scott Norris, a sawyer on the Granite Mountain Hotshots,
fired off a text to his mother, Karen: “This fire is running at Yarnell!!!” It was 3:54 p.m.
————————————————-
That’s it. That’s all Santos ever had to say about ‘Scott Norris’.
** THE BRENDAN MCDONOUGH BOOK – “MY LOST BROTHERS”
Brendan McDonough also basically makes NO MENTION of Scott Norris at ALL in his book… except for one passing mention on page 192 when Brendan was describing who else volunteered for the short squad in Yarnell once all of GM had arrived at the anchor point, and then what some members of the short squad ended up ‘doing’…
—————————————————-
“I need a short squad,” Eric said. “We got any volunteers?”
I stepped up, along with Scott Norris, Billy ( Warneke ), and Dustin ( Deford ).
A few lines later, when McDonough was explaining what he and that ‘short squad’ were doing… he simply just mentions ‘Scott Norris’ by his first name just one more time…
“Scott and Dustin cut and swamped with a chainsaw”.
—————————————————-
That’s it.
Even though McDonough’s book is entitled “My Lost Brothers”… that is the ONLY time he ever mentions his ‘brother’ Scott Norris in the entire book.
Followup…
Left something out up above.
The following is from the EPILOGUE of Kyle Dickman’s book…
———————————————————————————-
Heather Kennedy and Scott Norris’s family did not join the lawsuit. In their estimation, Scott had understood the risks he exposed himself to, and they didn’t believe a lawsuit would honor his wishes. Heather had the hardest time believing that he hadn’t spoken up when the crew decided to leave the black.
“He knew better,” she said.
———————————————————————————-
Maybe he did ‘speak up’.
But ‘Groupthink’ is a POWERFUL thing.
And it’s also a serious ‘Lesson to Learn’… because it means that even with people on a Crew who HAVE been trained properly… AND who also might not hesitate to ‘speak up’… a similar tragedy can STILL easily happen AGAIN.
WTKTT,
As always, thanks for the super research.
“Maybe he did ‘speak up’.
But ‘Groupthink’ is a POWERFUL thing.”
I’m not much on fancy terms and such, so here’s the way I see it:
The forces of the expectations of management, orders, directives, manipulation, and/or coercion WAS GREATER THAN any and all resistance to combat these forces by GMIHC.
When reading all of this very interesting information about Scott Norris, where he came from, and the likelihood of his extreme resistance to stupid orders, what REALLY stood out to me like a flashing lights is this:
All signs indicate that the forces of expectations of management, orders, directives, manipulation, and/or coercion were EVEN GREATER THAN a squared-away hotshot, who was trained by some of the best in the business to resist THIS VERY THING.
I believe it to be true that Fred Schoeffler, while having his quirks, performed his leadership role and responsibility better than most to prevent just this kind of tragedy AND passed this legacy fully intact to the next Payson HS leader, Mike Schinstock. Being a major portion of his entire adult life, I also believe that Fred has stayed in contact with the hotshot world and has continued his life-long passion for safety in many ways. The question remains: Why? Why was a hotshot trained this way (and I have been involved in similar organizations where once a “blank” always a “blank”, you just never lose the foundation of where you came from and who raised you) NOT ABLE TO OVERCOME THESE FORCES?
Why was Scott Norris unable to overcome these forces and put a stop to it?
I believe what we have at Yarnell Hill is more than something able to fit into neat tiny boxes called Groupthink or a trip to Abilene…much, much more!
The expectations of management, orders, directives, manipulation, and/or coercion was greater than any and all resistance to such.
At this point, in order to have the absolute best chance of preventing a similar tragedy from happening again in the future, we must accurately identify the these greater forces. To me there is much more to the full story of what happened than GM’s past bad behavior. While this part is important as well, there is more to the story.
In my opinion, these are some examples of outside forces that were greater than the crews ability to overcome them:
1. GMIHC was sponsored by a city fire department and as such was predisposed to a bias for action towards structure protection
2, Being of unorthodox progeny, GMIHC possessed a deadly need to prove themselves to the rest of the IHC community. This behavior was reinforced by the reaction of the public from its recent work at the Doce fire.
3. GMIHC felt pressure to perform from the Prescott FD Wildland Division Chief, the town council, and the Prescott fire chief. Relevance and continuation of their program may have been at stake.
Others?
Here is where it’s important to identify and study each and every force that was greater than even squared-away hotshots to overcome that day instead of doing the unthinkable. It is my belief that these forces came from overhead in the form of expectations, orders, directives, manipulation, and/or coercion. That is my best explanation as to why a hotshot crew, the best of the best, would go along with a plan to leave the safety of the black and march to their unfortunate death down a brush-choked box canyon, full of explosive fuel, at the height of the burn cycle, with deteriorating weather.
The reason GMIHC’s actions don’t make sense at all when looking at it purely through the rules they violated, is because IT CAN’T and it never will. If you contemplate this from the perspective of outside influences on their actions, while certainly no excuse to violate the majority of the basic rules of wildland firefighting, one can find a better understanding.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Thank you for weighing in on what I think is a very relevant topic, who are the most likely ones to have resisted the orders to bail off the ridge into the canyon and why they most likely failed because knowing all of these things really is a topic that COULD prevent this from happening again if the right people know the issues. Knowledge is a powerful weapon.
You also asked…Others? And here are mine,
I believe the GMIHC was a crew managed by what I think is the traditional hotshot management style….authoritarian. Which is a bad word to most Americans because of its George Orwellian overtones. I think it is an even worse word to millennials who were raised to believe they are all “special.” But I also strongly believe that is the preferred management style and what works best for hotshot crews.
So my takeaway from this particular discussion? Eric Marsh declared June 30, 2013, to be Easter and ordered his crew to get to the backside of Yarnell so they could be in position to look for Easter eggs by the fasted route possibly and in his mind that meant following his flagging line down the chimney in violation of almost all of the rules and guidelines at the same time.
Eric Marsh declared an emergency need for every Easter egg they could find to show the press how good they were which would translate into a great message being sent about their relative worth to the City of Prescott (that might prevent them from being eliminated because they were not fully revenue neutral) AND to meet or exceed the fire teams (overhead) unrealistic and dangerous goals to save the town by backfiring from the hastily constructed dozer line…or die trying.
Gary,
You posted: “… who are the most likely ones to have resisted the orders to bail off the ridge into the canyon and why they most likely failed …”
I allege it was primarily Steed. He was the Acting GMHS Superintendent and his sole responsibility was the safety and welfare of his Crew.
We are going to compare and contrast two separate fires under two separate conditions and circumstances.
On the May 2013 Thompson Ridge Fire (SNF) in NM, another HS Supt. asked GMHS (Steed) to assist them on a night shift Operational Period, corralling a bunch of spot fires from an escaped firing operation. He assured Steed it was safe, they had good black, good escape routes, etc. They just needed help in picking up the sheer number of spot fires.
Steed refused the assignment because he felt it was unsafe.
So, then the GMHS have the Doce Fire with close calls and Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes and further Normalization of Deviance and what is acceptable.
Then there is the 30 June 2013 ‘discussing our options;’ GMHS Crew Net radio discussions with Marsh as DIVS A and Steed as Acting GMHS Superintendent.
This is similar to what researchers and investigators looking into ‘aircraft mishaps’ Human Factors attribute to ‘DEFERENCE TO AUTHORITY.’ The term linguists use to describe what Steed was engaging in is “MITIGATED SPEECH,” which refers to any attempt to downplay or sugarcoat the meaning of what is being said. Malcolm Gladwell, in his book ‘Outliers,’ states “WE MITIGATE WHEN we’re being polite, or when we’re ashamed or embarrassed, or when we’re being DEFERENTIAL TO AUTHORITY. (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Researchers concluded there were six ways to PERSUADE OR CONVINCE someone to do something. They ranged from 1) COMMAND, 2) CREW OBLIGATION STATEMENT, 3) CREW SUGGESTION, 4) QUERY, 5) PREFERENCE, and 6) HINT or MITIGATING SPEECH.
The researchers found that the Captain or the one in charge (in the YHF case Marsh) had no problem with being blunt and giving a command. The first officers, (in the YHF case Steed) on the other hand, were talking to their boss, and so they OVERWHELMINGLY CHOSE THE MOST MITIGATED ALTERNATIVE. THEY HINTED.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
‘Outlier’ author Gladwell concludes: “It’s hard to read [the researcher’s] study and not be just a little bit alarmed, because A HINT (OR MITIGATED SPEECH) IS THE HARDEST TO DECODE AND THE EASIEST TO REFUSE.”
The researchers concluded: “Mitigation explains one of the great anomalies of plane crashes. In commercial airlines, captains and first officers split the flying duties equally. But HISTORICALLY, CRASHES HAVE BEEN MORE LIKELY TO HAPPEN WHEN THE CAPTAIN IS IN THE ‘FLYING SEAT.’ …. PLANES ARE SAFER WHEN THE LEAST EXPERIENCED PILOT IS FLYING, BECAUSE IT MEANS THE SECOND PILOT ISN’T GOING TO BE AFRAID TO SPEAK UP.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
There were numerous instances of Mitigated Speech on the GMHS. Steed explain to Marsh where the fire perimeter was in the MacKenzie video, telling Marsh “ we’re in the black” numerous times , telling Marsh either “we can’t make it or “we’re not going to make it” when asked to bring the Crew down to the BSR.
Each and/or either of these times, Steed could have ASSERTIVELY said something to the effect of: ‘you can’t see what we are seeing, the fire behavior is too aggressive, F**K NO, we are staying put.” Or even, ‘you can’t see what we are seeing, the fire behavior is too aggressive, we are going to wait for this to pulse then we’ll come down.’
Another influence is the contentious Marine Corps ethos of ‘following orders’ which very well COULD HAVE influenced his decision to leave the safe black and travel down into a fatal death trap at the worst possible time. I will defer to prior discussions on that matter.
Question: How is it that an experienced WFF Supervisor would refuse a relatively safe, ‘textbook’ assignment on the Thompson Ridge Fire under fairly benign conditions in May, yet buckle under and accept a clearly risky and likely impossible assignment; one that he knew was unsafe and he (and likely others)clearly sensed and stated to Marsh either “We can’t make it” or “We’re not going to make it” – and then take the GMHS into a fatal death trap?
“Combating mitigation has become one of the great crusades in commercial aviation in the past fifteen years. Every major airline now has what is called “CREW RESOURCE MANAGEMENT (CRM)” training, which is DESIGNED TO TEACH JUNIOR CREW MEMBERS HOW TO COMMUNICATE CLEARLY AND ASSERTIVELY.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Many HS Crews researched and followed the CRM leadership and communication style. Did the GMHS?
Deference to authority could have easily played a part. So could fatigue.
Your reference to aircraft investigations reminds me of the Colgin Air (a Continental regional carrier) crash in New York state a few years back, which killed 50 people. The pilot repeatedly tried to pull the nose up during a stall situation. The co-pilot had flown all night just to get to the location where this flight would begin, and subsequently tried to catch a few winks on a couch, just before the doomed flight.
Her fatigue, along with her deference to the authority of the pilot, likely played a big roll in her lack of input to try and correct the situation, just as deference to authority combined with fatigue, likely played a roll at YH (along with the MANY other legitimate external factors that have been brought forth so far).
A least in the “air” world, there is a investigate force (the NTSB) to flesh these things out, so that ALL of the causes (including external factors) can be identified, and solutions brought forth. That same sort of process is a “MUST NEED” in the WFF world!
Part of a news report regarding the recent balloon crash in Texas:
“NTSB investigators recovered 14 personal electronic devices, including cellphones, an iPad and three cameras from the crash site, which will be sent to a lab in Washington for analysis”.
In contrast, Arizona had custody of cell phones that were spirited away and supposedly dumped in a trash can before being examined.
TTWARE,
You posted: “[At] least in the “air” world, there is a investigate force (the NTSB) to flesh these things out, so that ALL of the causes (including external factors) can be identified …”
After the NTSB alleged ‘Investigation’ into the August 2008 Iron Complex (CA-SHF) H-44 Helicopter crash and 9 fatalities, I have most definitely taken a distrustful attitude and stance regarding the NTSB’s abilities to honestly and truthfully flesh things out, so that ALL the causes can be investigated.
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/accidentreports/pages/accidentreports.aspx
What are conspicuously missing from their website is the over 240 attachments. These Government documents (‘records’ under the FOIA) disappeared from the NTSB website withing 2 years after the incident. See the complete list below.
Like ALL fatality fires, the Investigation Teams first “establish a conclusions(s), then find the facts to fit that conclusion” per the Human Factors briefing of the COF 1996 Hochderffer Fire Shelter Deployment investigation.
The Iron Complex H-44 ‘Investigation’ was no different.
Check out the list of all the NTSB Government records, i.e. ‘attachments’ (below) that disappeared from their website. It will require 3 postings.
Project Information (as of Dec 07, 2010 10:53)
——————————————————————————–
Project ID(mkey) Investigation Type Mode
68616 Accident Aviation
NTSB Accident ID Occurrence Date Location
LAX08PA259 Aug 05, 2008 Weaverville, CA, United States
Docket Information
Docket ID Creation Date Last Modified Public Release Date & Time
46774 Dec 11, 2008 Dec 07, 2010 09/16/2009 09:05
List of Contents
File ID Filing Date Document Title Pages Photo
——————————————————————————–
426753 Sep 16, 2009 Operations 2 – Operations Group Chairman’s Factual Report 72
441929 May 13, 2010 Operations Group Chairman’s Factual Report – Errata Sheet 2
418795 May 12, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 01: Subpoena 2
418798 May 12, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 02: Operating Certificates 4
418800 May 12, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 03: Load Calculations Performed by PIC 4
426688 Sep 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 04: Pilot’s Records 53
418810 May 12, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 05: Pilots’ Duty Hours 2
426691 Sep 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 06: Copilot Records 33
418806 May 12, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 07: CHSI Training Manual 282
418813 May 12, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 08: Aircraft Contract Daily Diary (OAS-137) 4
418814 May 12, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 09: Load Calculation Form 5
418815 May 12, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 10: IHOG Chapter 7, Helicopter Load Calculations and Manifests 9
418816 May 12, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 11: IHOG Appendix A, Helicopter Management Forms and Checklists 36
418817 May 12, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 12: CHSI Provided Chart C (06/27/08) 1
418819 May 12, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 13: Original Manifests 9
418821 May 12, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 14: CHC Weight Documentation (Charts A, B, and C) 21
426459 Sep 11, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 15: Chart A and C Comparisons 8
418823 May 12, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 16: Calibration Records 1
439455 Apr 08, 2010 Operations 2 – Attachment 17: Prior Accident/Incidents 14
419019 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 18: CHSI Provided Chart A and Bs (8/11/07 and 01/04/08) 12
419021 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 19: DER Provided Weight Documents (12/07) 13
419022 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 20: Weight from Airworthiness Conformity Inspection (08/06/07) 1
419023 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 21: Weight for Test Flight (from Subpoena) 1
419025 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 22: Chart B from Subpoena (12/26/07) 1
419027 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 23: Chart A from Subpoena (08/11/07, 01/04/08, and 03/25/08) 12
419029 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 24: Chart B from Subpoena (01/04/08) 1
419030 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 25: Chart C from Subpoena (03/25/08) 1
419032 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 26: Subpoenaed Email from CHI to CHSI Confirming Weights (03/28/08) 1
419034 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 27: Subpoenaed Email from CHSI to CHI Confirming Weights (05/05/08) 2
419036 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 28: CHSI Fleet Chart Bs Submitted to USFS for 2007 Bids 12
419038 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 29: CHSI Fleet Chart Bs Submitted to USFS for 2008 Bids 11
419039 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 30: CHSI Fleet Weights and Performance Submitted to USFS for 2008 Bids 1
419042 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 31: Bid Submitted to USFS 6
419045 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 32: ROC Scale Repair/Calibration Station 1
419046 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 33: Load Calculation Form Instructions 2
426755 Sep 16, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 34: Sikorsky’s Communications with FAA regarding 2.5 Minute Power Available Chart 6
419048 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 35: USFS Power Check Form (From IHOG) 5
419049 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 36: Power Checks Performed by Pilots of HT 766 4
419051 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 37: CHSI Provided Supplement 5, Figure 1 1
430868 Dec 02, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 38: FAA Provided Supplement 5 8
424906 Aug 18, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 39: Supplement 7 18
419062 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 40: CHSI Provided Supplement 8 42
422288 Jul 02, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 41: FAA Provided Supplement 8 19
419066 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 42: FAA Provided Supplement 9 19
419069 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 43: Supplement Excerpts (Charts) Provided to Pilots at Helibase (in “football”) 11
419071 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 44: Email from CHSI Chief Pilot Instructing Pilots to Change Charts (Supplement 8 and 9) 13
419072 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 45: Comparison of Performance Charts provided by CHSI and FAA 49
419074 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 46: Performance Calculations on Charts Provided by CHSI and FAA 9
425043 Aug 19, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 47: Height-Velocity Diagram 1
419076 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 48: CHSI Charts Submitted to USFS for 2008 Bid 15
419079 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 49: Liquid Tank Installation STC 2
419081 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 50: Hoist Installation STC 2
419082 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 51: Composite Main Rotor Blade Component Cards (installed 08/14/07) 3
419084 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 52: Liquid Tank Component Card (installed 03/25/08) 1
419086 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 53: Ag Air Component Card (installed 12/26/07) 1
426464 Sep 11, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 54: HT 766 Helicopter Activity Report 4
419090 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 55: USFS Inspector Evaluation of HT 766 1
419091 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 56: HT 766 Registration 1
419092 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 57: CHSI Organization Chart 1
Iron Complex Iron 44 NTSB missing Attachments continued
419094 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 58: Subpoenaed Email Stating CHI Pays for CHSI Employees 1
419095 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 59: Liquid Tank Specifications 2
419096 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 60: Sikorsky Provided S-61 Ground Effect Diagram 1
419137 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 61: Seat Weights 2
419097 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 62: Maintenance Review of HT 766 (Weight Specific) 2
419098 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 63: CHSI Provided Letter from the USFS Regarding Use of Minimum Engine Specification 1
419099 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 64: Iron Complex Fire Information (Helibase Locations) 2
419100 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 65: Maps in Relation to H-44 (Accident Site) 4
419101 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 66: Trinity Helibase Information 3
422282 Jul 02, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 67: Accident Maps and Diagrams 11
419104 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 68: Weather 2
432991 Jan 05, 2010 Operations 2 – Attachment 69: Weight and Balance of HT 766 2
441928 May 13, 2010 Operations 2 – Attachment 70: Mission Profile of Departures 1
419107 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 71: Weighing Field Notes 5
419109 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 72: Witness Interviews 43
419111 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 73: Witness Positions 1
426616 Sep 14, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 74: Other Pertinent Interviews 18
419241 May 19, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachmnet 75: Miscellaneous Interviews 101
419131 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 76: Copilot Interview 52
419133 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 77: Pilot/Operator Aircraft Accident Report, NTSB Form 6120.1 9
421819 Jun 25, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 78: Pilot/Operator Aircraft Accident Report, NTSB Form 6120.1 (USFS) 9
419135 May 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 79: Statement of Party Representatives to NTSB Investigation 2
429663 Nov 09, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 79A: Statement of Party Representatives to NTSB Investigation 1
426717 Sep 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 80: Weight Testing (Ogden, UT) 51
422689 Jul 10, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 81: Pertinent List of FAA Inspections/Actions 3
429655 Nov 09, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 82: Contract AG-024B-C-08-9354 (Passenger Transport) 1
426618 Sep 14, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 83: Modification to Contract- AG-024B-C-08_9340 3
439457 Apr 08, 2010 Operations 2 – Attachment 84: Miscellaneous Interviews 2 (added) 7
422698 Jul 10, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 85: Chart B DART Provided (08-06-07) 1
422699 Jul 10, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 86: Chart Cs from Fleet 10
422700 Jul 10, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 87: Personnel at H-44 2
424973 Aug 19, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 88: Lease Agreement between CHI and CHSI 15
422704 Jul 10, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 89: Human Performance Interviews 12
426358 Sep 10, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 90: Weight Build-Up to Accident Configuration 7
426620 Sep 14, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 91: Hoist STC Flight Testing Documents (12/26/07) 7
426750 Sep 16, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 92: USFS Post Accident Weighing 1
428612 Oct 21, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 93: USFS Contract Cure Notices 23
431818 Dec 14, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 94: USFS Contract Termination Letters 5
431820 Dec 14, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 95: CHI responses to Cure Notices 25
430589 Nov 25, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 96: Contract AG-024B-C-08-9340 183
432068 Dec 16, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 97: Email from CHI concerning weight and balance records 2
432015 Dec 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 98: E-mail excerpt from USFS (Chuck Taylor) concerning USFS position on plus spec engines 3
432017 Dec 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 99: Record of Conversation – CHI Director of Maintenance 1
432019 Dec 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 100: Email from USFS concerning reweighing of helicopters on contracts 3
432022 Dec 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 101: USFS letter to CHI dated March 20, 2006 concerning use of 2.5 minute charts 1
432024 Dec 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 102: Email from CHI concerning compensation 1
432026 Dec 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 103: Email from CHI concerning CHI’s estimate of N612AZ’s empty weight 3
432027 Dec 15, 2009 Operations 2 – Attachment 104: S-61N instrument panel diagrams showing pilot & copilot focus areas. Information provided by Sikorsky and CHI Chief Pilot 5
434976 Feb 03, 2010 Operations 2 – Attachment 105: First Flight out of H44 Passenger Statements 8
441931 May 13, 2010 Operations 2 – Attachment 106: FAA Determination of Public Aircraft Status 2
441933 May 13, 2010 Operations 2 – Attachment 107: Dave Wolf’s Statement 1
441935 May 13, 2010 Operations 2 – Attachment 108: Correspondence from CHI and FAA Regarding Use of RFMS 6, 7, and 8 15
446201 Jul 15, 2010 Operations 2 – Attachment 108A: Further FAA Correspondence Regarding Use of RFMS 6, 7, and 8 7
445895 Jul 12, 2010 Operations 2 – Attachment 109: Documents Concerning FAA Postaccident Actions 22
453315 Oct 27, 2010 Operations 2 – Attachment 110: Information from FAA Concerning Addition of N612AZ, N103WF, N61NH, and N725JH to CHSI’s Part 135 Operations Specifications 44
421009 Jun 15, 2009 Meteorology 5 – Factual Report of Group Chairman 18
430552 Nov 25, 2009 Meteorology 5 – Addendum 1 16
444362 Jun 18, 2010 Meteorology 5 – Errata for Addendum 1 2
427652 Oct 01, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Factual Report of Group Chairman 33
412237 Feb 18, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Attachment 1 IRPG 2
412272 Feb 18, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Attachment 2 Wreckage Photos 11
412241 Feb 18, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Attachment 3 N61NH Sistership Photos 9
426596 Sep 14, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Attachment 4, Seat drawings 5
412273 Feb 18, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Attachment 5 Restraint Photos 11
412251 Feb 18, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Attachment 6 Exhibit 4, Restraint Inspection Guidelines 2
426599 Sep 14, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Attachment 7, FAA Forms 8110-3 26
412261 Feb 18, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Attachment 8 Injury Chart 5
426602 Sep 14, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Addendum A, Attachment 9, STC SR02327AK 19
454083 Nov 04, 2010 Survival Factors 6 – Addendum B, Attachment 10 11
429285 Oct 29, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Emergency Response Specialist Report 10
428727 Oct 22, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Emergency Response Specialist Report, Attachment 1: Overview of Incident Command System as Provided by the United States Forest Service 2
428938 Oct 26, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Emergency Response Specialist Report, Attachment 2: Excerpts from the Trinity Helibase Operating Guide 3
428940 Oct 26, 2009 Survival Factors 6 – Emergency Response Specialist Report, Attachment 3: Trinity Helibase Crash Rescue Plan 2
426650 Sep 15, 2009 Airworthiness Factual Report of Group Chairman (35 photo’s) 80
Iron Complex Iron 44 NTSB missing Attachments continued
445625 Jul 08, 2010 Errata to Airworthiness Group Chairman’s Factual Report 2
445871 Jul 12, 2010 Attachment 1 to Airworthiness Group Chairman’s Factual Report 9
434143 Jan 22, 2010 Addendum 1 to Airworthiness Factual Report of Group Chairman 6
441038 Apr 30, 2010 Addendum 2 to Airworthiness Factual Report of Group Chairman 3
445815 Jul 12, 2010 Addendum 3 to Airworthiness Factual Report (7 embedded photos) 6
452374 Oct 13, 2010 Addendum 4 to Airworthiness Factual Report of Group Chairman 3
426264 Sep 09, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Factual Report of Group Chairman 17
426633 Sep 15, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 1- Air Carrier Certificates 4
418087 May 04, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 2 – Type Certificate Data Sheets 18
426629 Sep 15, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 3 – Continuing Analysis and Surveillance System Meetings 15
426641 Sep 15, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 4 – Airworthiness Directive and Service Bulletin Summary 23
426643 Sep 15, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 5 – Aircraft Flight and Maintenance Logs 21
426647 Sep 15, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 5.1 – Aircraft Flight and Maintenance Logs 13
426645 Sep 15, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 5.2 – Aircraft Flight and Maintenance Logs 9
426635 Sep 15, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 6- Major Repairs and Alternations 17
418112 May 04, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 7 – Time Limit Control Components 11
418114 May 04, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 8 – Approved Vendor List 2
426637 Sep 15, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 9-Main Gear Box Information 5
426639 Sep 15, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 10-Input Freewheeling Unit Information 5
418125 May 04, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 11 – Transmission Inspection Panel Information 7
426652 Sep 15, 2009 Maintenance Records 11 – Attachment 12 – FAA Response Letter 4
426746 Sep 16, 2009 Cockpit Voice/ Flight Data Recorder 12 – Factual Report of Group Chairman 45
419427 May 21, 2009 Cockpit Voice Recorder 12 – Group Chairman’s Sound Spectrum Study 11
444189 Jun 17, 2010 Cockpit Voice Recorder 12 – Addendum to Group Chairman’s Sound Spectrum Study 13
444188 Jun 17, 2010 Cockpit Voice Recorder 12 – Errata to Group Chairman’s Sound Spectrum Study 9
426604 Sep 14, 2009 Aircraft Performance 13 – Helicopter Hover Study 29
443216 Jun 04, 2010 Aircraft Performance 13 – Addendum 1 to the Helicopter Hover Study 11
443215 Jun 04, 2010 Aircraft Performance 13 – ERRATA to the Helicopter Hover Study 30
454337 Nov 09, 2010 Aircraft Performance 13 – Addendum 2 to the Helicopter Hover Study 38
454339 Nov 09, 2010 Party Comments on Hover Study Addendum 2 15
430172 Nov 17, 2009 Materials Laboratory Factual Report 08-121 35
441070 Apr 30, 2010 Materials Laboratory Factual Report 08-121 Errata Sheet 2
414641 Mar 10, 2009 Materials Laboratory 15 – Factual Report 09-013 19
427284 Sep 25, 2009 Materials Laboratory 15 – Factual Report 09-019 19
424163 Aug 06, 2009 Materials Laboratory 15 – Factual Report 09-054 Fuel Testing Report Review 4
448395 Aug 11, 2010 Materials Laboratory 15 – Errata to Materials Laboratory Factual Report 09-054 Fuel Testing Report Review 1
434634 Jan 28, 2010 Materials Laboratory Factual Report 09-094 24
434633 Jan 28, 2010 Materials Laboratory Factual Report 10-002 6
450952 Sep 21, 2010 H44 Approach and Landing Study 18
455676 Dec 01, 2010 Carson Comments on H44 Approach and Landing Study 3
438758 Mar 30, 2010 Carson 2009 Flight Test 49
446197 Jul 15, 2010 Carson 2008 Flight Test 5
453700 Nov 01, 2010 Sikorsky Report on Sikorsky/Carson 2010 Flight Test 13
453702 Nov 01, 2010 Carson Report on Sikorsky/Carson 2010 Flight Test 48
446199 Jul 15, 2010 FAA Comments on Carson Flight Tests 3
440051 Apr 15, 2010 GE Power Study 5
444652 Jun 23, 2010 Party Submission from Carson Helicopters 60
445247 Jul 01, 2010 Carson Party Submission Exhibits 1 to 10 142
445249 Jul 01, 2010 Carson Party Submission Exhibits 11 to 25 173
445573 Jul 07, 2010 Carson Party Submissions Exhibits 26 to 32 54
445585 Jul 07, 2010 Carson Party Submission Exhibits – Emails from GE and Sikorsky Allowing Release of Documents Stamped Proprietary 7
448083 Aug 09, 2010 Carson Comments on Sikorsky Submission 7
448082 Aug 09, 2010 Carson Comments on USFS Submission 5
444646 Jun 23, 2010 Party Submission from USFS 29
444648 Jun 23, 2010 Party Submission from GE 2
444650 Jun 23, 2010 Party Submission from Sikorsky 31
439125 Apr 01, 2010 Toxicological Report, Pilot 1
416939 Apr 14, 2009 Statement of Party Representatives to NTSB Investigation 6
421817 Jun 25, 2009 Flight Time on 08-05-08 1
424823 Aug 17, 2009 Collective Lock – Factual Report 7
426752 Sep 16, 2009 Miscellaneous Correspondence 60
427516 Sep 30, 2009 Miscellaneous Transcript Excerpts 13
441936 May 13, 2010 Closure of Action Items from July 30, 2009 Meeting 8
444760 Jun 24, 2010 GE Aviation Letter Regarding Proprietary Items in Documents Regarding FCU Fuel Filter Contamination Submitted by Carson Helicopters 4
444680 Jun 23, 2010 Documents Regarding FCU Fuel Filter Contamination Submitted by Carson Helicopters, Part 1 59
444682 Jun 23, 2010 Documents Regarding FCU Fuel Filter Contamination Submitted by Carson Helicopters, Part 2 70
444684 Jun 23, 2010 Documents Regarding FCU Fuel Filter Contamination Submitted by Carson Helicopters, Part 3 70
446776 Jul 20, 2010 Additional Information from Witness 4
446778 Jul 20, 2010 FAA Inspector Statement Regarding Visit to Trinity Helibase on August 7, 2008 2
447680 Aug 03, 2010 Information Regarding 10 Micron Airframe Fuel Filters 29
453868 Nov 02, 2010 E-mail from Carson Concerning Seat STC 2
455588 Dec 01, 2010 FAA response to NTSB information request 10-282 7
455611 Dec 01, 2010 Correspondence with the Copilot 12
455625 Dec 01, 2010 Additional Information Provided by USFS on November 29, 2010 8
455794 Dec 02, 2010 Additional Information Provided by Carson Helicopters on December 2, 2010 20
455859 Dec 02, 2010 Additional Information Provided by Sikorsky on December 2, 2010 5
430579 Nov 25, 2009 Aerial Photos – Burning Wreckage Smoke Plume 2
430401 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 1. Smoke plume, 1943 PDT, N420RL, 8 miles out. 1
430402 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 2. Smoke plume, 1945 PDT, N420RL, 5 miles out. 1
430403 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 3. Smoke plume, 1946 PDT, N420RL, 2 miles out. 1
430404 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 4. Smoke plume, 1947 PDT, N420RL, taken over site. 1
430405 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 5. Smoke plume, 1948 PDT, N420RL, taken over site. 1
430406 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 6. Smoke plume, 1951 PDT, N420RL, taken over site. 1
430407 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 7. Smoke plume, 1954 PDT, N420RL, taken over site. 1
430408 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 8. Smoke plume, 1955 PDT, N420RL, taken over site. 1
430409 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 9. Smoke plume, 1956 PDT, N420RL, taken over site. 1
430410 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 10. Smoke plume, 2000 PDT, N420RL, taken over site. 1
430411 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 11. Smoke plume, 2001 PDT, N420RL, taken over site. 1
430412 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 12. Smoke plume, 2001 PDT, N420RL, taken over site. 1
430413 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 13. Smoke plume, 1949 PDT, N90301, 2-3 miles out. 1
430414 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 14. Smoke plume, 1950 PDT, N90301, taken over site. 1
430415 Nov 23, 2009 Photo 15. Smoke plume, 1951 PDT, N90301, taken over site. 1
447773 Aug 04, 2010 Photo 16. CHSI-submitted photo of accident helicopter taken on March 25, 2008 1
452036 Oct 06, 2010 Columbia Helicopters Inc. Submission 22
455930 Dec 06, 2010 Administration Investigation Report (Previously Released under FOIA) 106
455939 Dec 06, 2010 Affidavit of Roger Douglass dated December 3, 2010 3
455943 Dec 06, 2010 Copilot email dated December 4, 2010 13
456015 Dec 07, 2010 Memorandum – Board Member Participation in the Board Hearing concerning the August 8, 2008 Crash During Takeoff of Firefighting Helicopter, U.S. Forest Service, Sikorsky S-61N, N612AZ, Weaverville, California
This is the ‘official’ report that you have to ‘search’ for (in the upper right) because it is NOT listed along with all the other NTSB aircraft ‘investigations’
Aircraft Accident Report Crash During Takeoff
of Carson Helicopters, Inc. Firefighting Helicopter Under Contract to the U.S. Forest
Service Sikorsky S‐61N, N612AZ
Near Weaverville, California August 5, 2008
Accident Report NTSB/AAR-10/06 PB2010-910406
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR1006.pdf
RTS,
Has anyone ever asked the NTSB why those attachments are missing? Could it be because of some reason that’s non-conspiratorial?
My assertion was simply that a strong, independent investigative body needs to be created for the wildland world.
For any faults they may have, I think everyone still would have to agree that for the time being, the NTSB has set the worldwide “gold standard” for investigating fatal plane crashes.
TTWARE,
I used to think that about them as well until the H-44 Investigation.
I will call and/or send them an email and inquire about the missing attachments.
Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.
Robert J. Hanlon
It is much more than incompetence. The Government Agencies like to fallback on that and scapegoat their employees and/or managers.
A Person outside the training and supervision of GM is all of a sudden in a new crew with totally different values and Supervision.
Scott had good solid training but was in the outsider position what Payson did was not what Granit Mountain did.
Pure and simple to say that’s not how Payson did it was to put your self out of the crew mix. Two seperiate types of crew supervision means adjust and get along or become an outsider it is the way it is.
He may have questioned the move and the trip into the Canyon but I doubt he got into any argument with Steed and Marsh was not with them.
Too Bad he could not have changed the out come. Group think is a strong thing that needs a stronger leader to change the out come.
Outside influences are what caused this catastrophe. Steed from all indications knew better and argued for a change in plan. He had the ability to say no twice. Once leaving the BLACK and second when he was faced with dropping into a brush filled canyon. He absolutely knew better.
I still believe had the Division Supervisor been any one but Marsh the crew would have set the fire out in the black where Steed moved them to planning exactly that. Marsh Ordered Them To Move and Steed in the end could not say NO.
Fisherman Bob,
“Scott had good solid training but was in the outsider position what Payson did was not what Granit Mountain did.”
I hear what you’re saying but I don’t think Norris was any kind of black sheep of the family. I believe they thought highly of him because of his experience and training on a USFS crew – the real deal. Having him on the crew helped legitimize GM. They had him in a leadership position on the crew as well, FFT1. Being in a leadership position and coming from a crew that taught every single crew member, no matter where they were on the food chain, to speak up and challenge bad orders – how could that quality foundation evaporate into thin air, like it never happened?
In my opinion this is stronger evidence of outside influence, expectations of management, etc, affecting the poor decisions of GMIHC that day.
Woodfile
It dose take time to establish yourself on a crew when you change from one to the next. You try not to say we did it this way
that dose not go over well. That’s all I am reflecting on HS crews have their own and different systems.
Given how things work in these macho environments, I wonder if Marsh was acting even more cavalier in reaction to perceived criticism from Scott or Dustin. This behavior looks bizarre given that they were not in immediate physical danger when their stupid plans were hatched.
Your analysis seems to be right on in my option. The other factors that I would add are promise of air attack to make the plan more possible as well as commitment to helping the elderly population in Yarnell that were so vulnerable in this situation.
Diane,
Thank you. I don’t discount entirely (even though it’s completely absurd to rely on air support to mitigate a high-risk move like that) the possibility of an understanding of air support being moved to GM’s division of the fire and it being used as a ‘bargaining chip’ by overhead in the discussions of the crew move.
After all, it is possible, no matter how remote, that when Abel said: “Hunker and be safe. We’ll get air support down there asap,” it was understood in the context that day as:
“Once you get to the pre-identified bomb-proof safety zone at the ranch, hunker & be safe. We’ll get air support down there to you asap for the hail-mary plan to save the town.”
It may be far-fetched, but it is possible, right?
Woodsman
In all my 33 years of fire no crew ever asked for air support in order to move from the safe black to another SZ in the Middle of the brush where the fire was headed.
We all said over and over in Training that you should never count on a Air Tanker to pull your fat out of the fire. When supporting crews building line its 50/50 that they will hit exactly where you need the drop. Helicopters are way more accurate.
It would be an admission that the move was highly unsafe.
It was breaking a lot of the Ten Standard Orders. Who would authorize such a thing?
There is still no conformation that there was a hail marry plan.
That is as well still speculation.
My general belief is Marsh was talking about the Tanker drops to shift to Glen Isla as the fire was close to there.
He had the advantage position to see what the fire was doing on the South Side.
They– Steed said they were in the Black and could not move to Yarnell. Then the statement hunker and be safe.
Lastly— even if they got to the BSR they would be trapped there while the fire burned over them and at the same time destroyed most of Glen Isla the Fire was in Glen Isla before they got to the deployment site.
So they were like 2 hours to late to accomplish what ever they thought they were going to do as a hand crew in a town where fire was jumping from house to house and even the Engine crews had moved to the Highway and Restaurant parking lot.
I would say it was a Far-fetched notion or even a possibility.
If a crew needed drops the AA would have been notified to divert immediately to assist the crew.
Air Attack-When Roy Collins was leaving the fire didn’t he direct Burfiend to leave the Peeple’s Valley area and move to the Yarnell area to help out there since the needs were great there after the wind shift. From what I have read he delayed going to the Yarnell area for a critical 40 minutes that there doesn’t seem to be an explanation for.
It seems like he could have made some difference with retardant drops near the granite mountain crew and structure protection in
Yarnell when he was first directed to do this and said that he would by the time he arrived it was too late for effective action.
Was there accountability for his actions or inaction?
I don’t understand this.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on
July 31, 2016 at 1:25 pm
>> Diane Lomas asked…
>>
>> Air Attack-When Roy Collins was leaving the
>> fire didn’t he direct Burfiend to leave the
>> Peeple’s Valley area and move to the Yarnell
>> area to help out there since the needs were
>> great there after the wind shift.
Yes. Rory Collins gave that ‘directive’ to Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ and pilot Thomas French at 3:50 PM.
Thomas French ACKNOWLEDGED that ‘directive’ from ‘Air Attack’ immediately and then said…
“We are HEADED THAT WAY”.
But he did NOT ( head that way at that time ).
It would be another 40 minutes before Thomas French would turn his attention to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> From what I have read he delayed going to
>> the Yarnell area for a critical 40 minutes that
>> there doesn’t seem to be an explanation for.
That is correct… but there really IS an ‘explanation’, as heard in even just the Air-To-Air radio channel captures covering this timeframe.
When Rory Collins TOLD Thomas French to turn his attention to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire at 3:50 PM… there was just ONE single-engine SEAT Air-Tanker still ‘on scene’ and there was also a large DC10 VLAT that was ‘inbound’ to Yarnell and about 15-20 minutes away.
French and Collins discussed this and French asked for ‘permission’ to just use the one remaining ‘on scene’ SEAT for just one more drop on that retardant line he was working on up there on the north side, in the Miner’s Camp and Model Creek road area(s).
Air Attack Rory Collins agreed to this… since he didn’t see what good just one SEAT could do at that point down near Yarnell… but they they BOTH AGREED that the inbound VLAT is what was really needed right away down there near Yarnell and Glen Ilah and should be used down there as soon as it arrived.
French and Collins AGREED to this ‘plan’ circa 3:52 PM. It is captured in the Air-To-Air radio recordings.
But then Air Attack Rory Collins ‘left the fire’.
His ‘pilot’ was ‘timing out’ on allowable hours in the air and so Rory Collins passed the ‘Air Attack’ duties over to Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend and trainee Clint Cross ) at 3:58 PM and left Yarnell airspace.
As soon as Rory Collins was gone ( at 3:58 PM )… Thomas French began to ignore everything he had been told to do by Collins and everything he had AGREED to do just minutes earlier, circa 3:52 PM.
Thomas French just STAYED up on the north end of the fire and just CONTINUED to do ‘tidy up’ work on that retardant line he had been working on up there… even though the winds had obviously shifted and the actual threat to the Model Creek and Peeples Valley areas had mitigated.
Thomas French even used the inbound “Heavy Iron” ( the DC10 VLAT ) up on the north… instead of using it near Yarnell as he had PROMISED Rory Collins he would circa 3:52 PM.
Thomas French would end up NOT turning his attention to the Yarnell side of the fire for another 40 minutes after when he had said he would, at 3:50 PM.
Thomas French would ONLY end up turning his attention to the Yarnell side when he was ‘happy’ with the status of his little retardant line up on the north side and only when HE decided it was all neat and tidy and that HE was now ‘done with it’.
In other words… he became FIXATED on just ‘tidying up’ that project rather than doing what he had said he would do and focusing his attention on what had become the REAL priority for Air Support at 3:50 PM… the YARNELL side of the fire.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> It seems like he could have made some
>> difference with retardant drops near the
>> granite mountain crew and structure
>> protection in Yarnell when he was first
>> directed to do this and said that he would
There is no ‘seems’ about it.
While it remains highly unlikely that any retardant would have been used to simply ‘cover the move’ that GM was making… there really is no question that had the VLAT that was inbound at 3:50 PM been ‘put to work’ directly on the YARNELL side of the fire, before the smoke column had laid over, that it would have made SOME difference down there.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes had already told OPS1 Todd Abel to tell Air Attack ( since Cordes’ had lost the ability to transmit on the Air-To-Ground channel ) to “drop at will” in and around the Yarnell and Glen Ilah areas.
Cordes told ADOSH he didn’t have specific targets for them because (quote) “they know how to do their job”.
But even SPGS1 Gary Cordes had no idea that the ‘Air Support’ wasn’t even going to ‘show up’ over Yarnell and Glen Ilah before it was too late to really do anything at all.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> by the time he arrived it was too late
>> for effective action.
That is absolutely correct.
The KEY was for ‘Air Support’ to get down there BEFORE the smoke column ‘laid down’ and obscured the terrain and would make it ‘unsafe’ to attempt any drops out AHEAD of the fireline… to even TRY and protect any part of Yarnell proper or the Glen Ilah subsivision.
Thomas French blew it.
He wasted too much time ‘tidying up’ his little now-not-even-priority retardant line project up north in the Miner’s Camp and Model Creek road area(s).
He MISSED the opportunity to do anything at all ( even with a full DC10 VLAT ) because by the time he got down there… the smoke column HAD begun to ‘lay down’ and obscure the terrain below.
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> Was there accountability for his actions or inaction?
No.
This ‘missed opportunity’ did not escape the ADOSH and the WFA investigators, however, but it just became ‘lost in the noise’ of their final report because there was so much ELSE going wrong ( even on the ground ) at that Arizona Forestry workplace, as also detailed in their report.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> I don’t understand this.
You are not alone.
The ‘Air Support’ over Yarnell has been pretty much given a ‘free pass’ with regards to any responsibility or accountability for the entire Yarnell situation.
Apparently… no one likes to ‘criticize’ the ‘fly boys’.
It really pisses them off if anyone DOES.
WTKTT and Diane,
Those in Air Support have a lot of leeway for sure based on any number of factors, mostly weather related.
The helicopter and tanker pilots want us to give them brutally honest feedback on their drops and such instead of ” That was a good drop BUT ….”
It does seem odd that they would have 40 minutes of ‘diverted attention.’
As far as any of the Air Support saving the GMHS or making any difference in their predicament, the winds were way to strong and the bowl way too tight for anything remotely effective.
Dropping retardant on WFF’s to ‘save them’ is fictional movie and novel fodder, not reality.
Even retardant drops in Yarnell and Glen Ilah without Ground Resources to reinforce it is also worthless.
Woody Woodsman,
Regarding the promise of air support, you posted: “…. even though it’s completely absurd to rely on air support to mitigate a high-risk move like that …”
There is a documented A/G radio transmission from Marsh to AA posted by WTKTT on February 6, 2015: “SIDENOTE: Notice the END time for Hulburd Video M2U00264. It is 4:37 PM… the exact moment when ‘Bravo 33’ reported to the SAIT that they heard ( on the AIR-TO-GROUND channel ) someone they ‘BELIEVED TO BE DIVSA ERIC MARSH making that statement about “THAT’S IT. THAT’S EXACTLY WHERE WE WANT THE RETARDANT.”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xi/#comment-254617
There is much more to this than you know. Stand by ….
RTS,
I’m a huge fan of finding out things I do not know. Standing by……..
The Wonk
This is the communication from Marsh that I was inquiring about earlier.
This would mean that Marsh was communicating to AA minutes before the burnover about where he wanted the retardant dropped.
Doesn’t fit the ongoing narrative and timeline.
Reply to Woodsman post on July 31, 2016 at 6:07 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> As always, thanks for the super research.
Don’t thank me. Thank Hotshot-turned-author Kyle Dickman.
I can still criticize that book he wrote for what he did NOT lift a finger to ‘research’ and ‘discover’ ( because he decided NOT to )… but regarding some of the background and the amazing ‘access’ he had to SOME of the people who knew things… he did an excellent job.
I don’t think Dickman actually chose to report about ALL the things that Heather Kennedy probably told him… including what RTS has referred to about Norris being generally ‘uncomfortable’ with the ‘decision making’ on the part of this Granite Mountain organization he now found himself working for.
I believe that in addition to confirming how that ‘bad decision making’ almost got Brendan McDonough and Christopher MacKenzie killed just 12 days BEFORE Yarnell… I would bet a dollar to a sawbuck that she ALSO related some OTHER ‘bad decision making’ stories to Dickman that Norris had told her about… but Dickman himself decided ‘not to go there’ just like Mike Dudley, JIm Karels and the SAIT did.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> “Maybe he did ‘speak up’.
>> But ‘Groupthink’ is a POWERFUL thing.”
>>
>> I’m not much on fancy terms and such, so here’s the way I see it:
For someone who is ‘dissing’ himself about ‘not being much on fancy terms’… you certainly did an amazing job of SUMMARIZING what the REAL ISSUES are… and what the REAL TAKEAWAYS should be.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> The forces of the expectations of management, orders,
>> directives, manipulation, and/or coercion WAS GREATER
>> THAN any and all resistance to combat these forces
>> by GMIHC.
I completely AGREE.
“Culture” and its accompanying “Expectations” can KILL
And on Sunday… June 13, 2013… in a place called Yarnell… it DID.M/b>
THAT is what the primary conversation should be about… in ADDITION to always following the rules of one’s own profession.
And “Slogans” and “Mottos” can KILL just as easily.
Regardless of any influence from ‘above’… I still believe Eric Marsh himself “Esse Quam Videried” those men right into their graves that day.
There is also the GMHS attitude that McDonough, and likely others, were exposed to and/or coached regarding Fire Order #10 – “fight fire aggressively, having provided for safety first.” He said, “It’s hillbilly. It’s old.” He basically said that today’s WFF’s don’t need to follow such rules. McDonough said. “We’re smarter … We’re a lot smarter.”
Wonky Woodsman,
Thank you for your insight In spite of your quirks, it was well written.
RTS,
I appreciate that.
Wonked-out Woodruff
Whipping Woodsman,
My pleasure, even with your quirks …
RTS,
Quirks was my second choice. My first choice was ‘bizarre idiosyncrasies’ but I edited it out. I guess should have gone with my first instinct.
Mr, Woodwrench
Let’s see how it looks on paper:
“I believe it to be true that Fred Schoeffler, while having his bizarre idiosyncrasies, performed his leadership role and responsibility better than most to prevent just this kind of tragedy AND passed this legacy fully intact to the next Payson HS leader, Mike Schinstock.”
Yeah, that would have worked…damn.
Woodeditor
Whip It Up Woodscrew,
What? Like you don’t have any ‘bizarre idiosyncrasies’? I too toned mine down to keep it ‘Family Friendly’
RTS,
Just doing my thing and having a good time. My intention was to give you a lot of credit for what I believe you have done for your crew over the years. I also believed that you passed that spirit on when you retired. Forget the one word and look at the entire statement…did I get it right?
Besides, quirky is good. Remember, only dead fish go with the flow.
Woodbark
Woodstone Wombat,
I prefer quirky or just idiosyncrasies without the ‘bizarre.’ Would you list some of those for me that you KNOW I posses.
Well said and supports the argument that wild land agencies should not be integrated with structure protection .
WTKTT,
I knew we could count on you to fill in many of the blanks of this important angle. You are a research machine…and I really mean that, I think you might actually be a machine. Great Job…thank you from the bottom of my human heart. That is an organ in our bodies that pumps blood through our systems.
Rely to Gary Olson post on July 31, 2016 at 7:09 am
>> Gary Olson…
>>
>> That is an organ in our bodies that pumps blood
>> through our systems.
Hmm… seems like such a system would be highly prone to blockages and other failures associated with any ‘plumbing’ based system.
Perhaps a redesign is in order.
It also gets broken a lot.
WTKTT,
Thank you for your extensive research and insight on all this.
Reply to Diane lomas post on
July, 28 2016, at 12:30 PM
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> Do the granite mountain families
>> risk losing any of their benefits as a
>> result of uncovering the truth of
>> why the men died?
You would think not… but the way things REALLY work ( in Arizona, anyway )… the answer is YES.
There have been a number of credible reports ( some backed up with documentation obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA via valid FOIA requests ) that several of the “family members” have been treated VERY badly… to the point of being denied benefits and/or access to the millions of dollars donated by the public that was supposed to go to ALL ‘family members’.
The ‘Arizona 100 Club’ became the ‘gatekeeper’ for these millions and millions of dollars in donations and THEY have apparently been the ones ‘controlling’ the disbursements only as THEY see fit.
Stay on THEIR ‘good side’… and you possibly receive some of the publicly donated money . Piss THEM off… and you get NOTHING.
There are also credible reports that family members like Marcia .McKee ( deceased hotshot Grant McKee’s mother ) have never even received one red cent of the automatic LODD ( Line Of Duty Death ) benefit guaranteed by LAW.
Marcia McKee was the first to file a ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit on behalf of her son, Grant McKee.
Many other family members eventually did the same thing… but Marcia McKee was the first.
Marcia McKee did not ‘settle’ her lawsuit like other family members did.
Her original ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit is supposedly still ‘on appeal’ along with TWO others… even as of this writing.
Thank you for your reply.
I thought that may be the case since there have been reports that family members have not wanted to pursue what actually happened to their loved ones.
Diane said, “there have been reports that family members have not wanted to pursue what actually happened to their loved ones.”
It’s important to remember that of the 19 families, it’s hard to find anything that they all agree on. There are parents, wives, children, with varying familiarity with how the system works. The crew were full time, part time, seasonal, rookies, and all had different rights, etc.
Some family members seem to be resentful of any inquiry because the truth may be unflattering, but many probably also feel that since nothing will bring them back, prolonged investigations only cause additional pain to the loved ones. Some appreciate that investigations help prevent future incidents, and save lives, but not all know or care about that.
Some family members were taken on an extended question and answer session, called a staff ride, that took place at and around the fatality site and that was attended by some but not all of the important players at YHF. Maybe they feel they have all the answers they need or will ever have, and are satisfied to leave it at that.
I can never feel their pain, so can’t comment on what they ought to be doing. I hope that they find peace.
Meanwhile, I hope that further investigation will reveal truths that will save lives in the future and will help our country learn a better way to manage wildlands, including fire.
Just to clarify, the staff ride was private and there supposedly were no notes from the ride, so only the attendees know what was said there. We do know some of the questions, which were submitted ahead of time by families and their representatives. Those were revealed in a series of emails released to John Dougherty under a FOIA request, and can be found through links on the right hand column of this web page. Also, search the previous two chapters for “staff ride” to get more discussion.
Diane-
Some feel alot of the firefighter community and Prescott community have really helped them get through the sseconds of each day and its not to figuure out WHY they died because it does not bring them back and its not healthy minded to tryy and examine the people they hold dear to their hearts and unddersttood. my keyboard accting silly and I am nott fixing errors…it is a very delicate line and topic because if you LISTEN to them…it is a beautiful thing to hear the lives of these mens vs them beingg just ssome fire and just some men on a fire that keeps killing wild land firefightters. I think this is what Josh Brolin meant tto the world when he said he wwants to know his role is to bring forth the uplifting message of these good men vs why and what led them to such a throat closing tear jerking situation…I think it is important for us to understand like Dr Ted Putnam stated that there is a natural division that some want to know every tiny details and some cannot comprehend or must move forward tto LIVE ON but one of the widows has a slogan BE BETTER…after this year has unfolded I wish tthat too as Sonny and I are in and out of the hospital getting our lives and importtant matters to the forefront and we both have in agreement …we hate hospitalss and surgeries but also we hope before we die we see tthe changes needed to the wildland community.
this is sonny. I am awaiting my surgery. Joy forgot to add the agenda part–some are protraying the bosses as heroes when it is well documented those bosses killed their seventeen subordinates. But to state the facts will get you a lable of insensitive despite the knowledge of facts revealed is what will save future wildland fire fighter lives.
Ample evidence is here from testimony of respected wild land service bosses.
The shame is to put reputations before lives of futhure wild firefighters. wildland death investigators yet ignored even with the maximum fines handed out to the Foreest Service along with it.
this is joy on sonnys hospital bed and his pc is terrible to type on…they are doing another ekg and just calld doc in…surgery is suppose to be monday but who knows but no i did not forget to add as sonny wrote while i was away from pc making fammily calls…i had my procedure yesterday to rush him to er and sso i have been tired but nope I did not forget that sonny…I do not enggage into those specifics..I figure that’s your area. get well sonny. hang in there. its been a tough 24 hours- you have a good team working on you…I like ’em
If Marcia McKee is not listed on her son’s paperwork as a beneficiary is she still eligible to receive benefits and/or donations from the 100 club?
email that direct to craig knapp
if i was near my cell i would for you but im not but he would know
Yes she is the mother and the father is also a recipient as the surviving immediate family. If Unmarried a person can list immediate family as beneficiary on their employment paperwork if not listed it is still the legal requirement. Federal at least is that way on part time Employees. I would assume this would be to.
Full time list wife or immediate Family for their Benefits.
Diane,
The 100 Club is all about paying for immediate expenses for fallen first responders. They look at any person who might be in need, including girlfriends, so moms would certainly be included. I’m sure it seems arbitrary to some, but they get high marks at Charity Navigator, so someone thinks their methods are acceptable. According to AZCentral.com:
“The 100 Club is a Phoenix-based non-profit that assists families of fallen firefighters and law-enforcement officers.
…
The group, which also helped girlfriends, fiancees and others who weren’t blood or legal relatives of the Yarnell 19, distributed funds based on individual circumstances rather than dividing funds equally.
“We looked at needs,” Knutson-Felix said. “We provided a lot of counseling support, (insurance) co-pays. We provided health insurance for dependents. We helped with money for (living) expenses … travel, moves.”
One of the 100 Club’s aims is to provide immediate help for pressing needs. Within days of the Yarnell Hill Fire, the 100 Club had disbursed nearly $334,000.
The group is also paying for relatives to attend memorial services this year at the National Fallen Firefighters Memorial in Emmitsburg, Md., and the International Association of Fire Fighters’ Fallen Fire Fighter Memorial in Colorado Springs.
…
The 100 Club paid about $164,000 for funeral expenses, $168,000 in travel-related costs and $65,000 for memorial expenses. Assistance related to the memorial included setting up portable restrooms at the service, footing the transportation costs for firefighters attending the event and chartering buses.
Other outlays so far have included $1.21 million to pay off debts of the firefighters and their families, nearly $135,000 in survivor living expenses, more than $45,000 for grief and related counseling and nearly $20,000 in medical benefits for dependents.”
The 100 Club of Arizona
https://www.guidestar.org/profile/23-7172077
———————————————————————–
Mission Statement
The PRIMARY mission of the 100 Club of Arizona is to provide IMMEDIATE financial assistance to the surviving families of public safety officers and firefighters killed or seriously injured in the line of duty.
Benefits – Program 1
Program description
The 100 Club of Arizona offers three different types of benefits to public safety officers and firefighters in the state of Arizona. When a public safety officer or firefighter is killed in the line of duty, the 100 Club provides a $15,000 check to the family which is delivered within 24 to 48 hours.
———————————————————————–
Horseshit.
Just ask Marcia McKee.
WTKTT,
Mostly HORSESHIT.
For the sake of openness and transparency, it is only fair to include the numerous posts by GMHS family, friends, loved ones, and a family liaison that had a good and obviously noteworthy experience with the 100 Club.
Posted November 16, 2013 by Jen_32 on – “Since the death of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots in Yarnell, Az, the 100 Club has been and integral part of the support system. As a family liaison to a young widow, I have experienced first hand how the 100 Club has not only financially contributed to the families need, but also to the healing of the their broken hearts. Sharon from the 100 Club is always here for a hug and a kind word. I would consider Sharon of the 100 Club a new friend. As an organization, the 1oo Club is exceptional. Much gratitude to the board of directors, Sharon and all working and involved in this outreach.”
Posted by the Woyjeck Family on November 11, 2013 ” Our 21 year old son Kevin was one of the 19 Hot Shot firefighters killed in the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013. The Arizona 100 club has been a godsend to our family. The have provided for us in so many ways. Sharon and her staff are unbelievably compassionate and they have been a bright side to our darkest days. Our lives have been made less stressful by the 100 club, we are truly humbled.”
Posted by SDeFord on November 8, 2013 “My son Dustin was one of the 19 Granite Mountain Hot Shots that was killed in the line of duty on June 30th 2013. Our sorrow is great, but our hope is greater. Dustin had a genuine faith in Jesus Christ, and he wasn’t afraid to talk about it. That knowledge alone has given us the greatest comfort possible. However, along side that comfort we have been blessed by the 100 Club of Arizona. They stepped in immediately alleviate the financial worries and logistics that would have otherwise overwhelmed our troubled hearts. We have nothing but praise for their expressions of love and compassion. They were way ahead of us reaching out to us in our need.”
Posted by Agmisner on November 5, 2013: “My husband was killed on June 30th 2013 in the Yarnell Hill Fire. I was 8 months pregnant with our first child, 24 years old and now a Widow. I could of not gotten thru this without the love and support of Sharon and the 100 club. They have helped myself and my family out so much thru this tragedy and continue to do so. Thank you for everything
Amanda Misner ”
Marcia McKee did not and has not gotten her share of what is due her
The 100 Club of Arizona
https://www.guidestar.org/profile/23-7172077
Reply to Robert ( RTS ) the Second post on
July 31, 2016 at 3:58 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Mostly HORSESHIT.
>>
>> For the sake of openness and transparency, it is only
>> fair to include the numerous posts by GMHS family,
>> friends, loved ones, and a family liaison that had a
>> good and obviously noteworthy experience with
>> the 100 Club.
Yes… I’m sure the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ was doing SOMETHING with the ‘millions upon millions’ of dollars they received.
But your post only supports what I have already said.
The ‘Arizona 100 Club’ helps who THEY want… when THEY want.
Stay on THEIR good side… you might get some help.
Piss THEM off… and you get NOTHING.
I’m not sure the PUBLIC either knows or would ‘understand’ that that is how the ‘public donations’ were ACTUALLY being ‘distributed’.
In an arbitrary way… with ‘Arizona 100 Club’ making up the ‘rules’ for who gets help and who doesn’t.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Marcia McKee did not and has not gotten her
>> share of what is due her.
No, she has not.
It also still remains to be discovered WHY, when the settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day was scheduled… there is now an email proving that THOSE family members who would be participating wanted assurances from Arizona Forestry that the two Prescott ‘Family support’ designees, J.P. Vicente and Ray Maione… would NOT be anywhere NEAR that meeting.
They ( GM family members ) were specifically asking their lawyers to make SURE these two individuals would NOT be there at that meeting.
They didn’t even want to be in the same room with them.
Marcia McKee herself was, apparently, never even NOTIFIED that this meeting was going to take place or given the opportunity to attend. More mistreatment.
But that also means that whatever ‘bad blood’ there was between some GM ‘Family members’ and this ‘Vicente’ guy and the ‘Maione’ guy was coming from family members OTHER than Marcia McKee.
There is still a ‘story’ there that remains to be told.
SIDENOTE: The same ‘JP Vicente’ guy who had to have the POLICE called on him by the Superintendent of the Prescott Pioneer Cemetery and who some ‘GM Family Members’ said they would not tolerate his presence at the Q/A meeting was once named the Arizona 100 Club’s Firefighter of the Week for his work with ( supposedly ) helping SOME ( select ) Granite Mountain family members.
If the 100 Club is non-profit with public donations isn’t there an obligation to distribute funds equally?
I was Marcia McKee’s Family Support person for the YH Fire Family Staff Ride.
She has gotten NOTHING from the 100 Club and has nothing good to say about them.
Carol Sue Morgan (Carol Sue Unkenholz) who works for the 100 Club was identified by her Facebook photo as the one who “…stole paperwork right out of my hands and it was all of Grant’s personal information.”
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post July 30, 2016 at 9:56 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I was Marcia McKee’s Family Support person for the
>> YH Fire Family Staff Ride.
>>
>> She has gotten NOTHING from the 100 Club
Yet… this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ ( and this ‘Carol Sue’ person who runs it ) supposedly paid for Grant McKee’s girlfriend ( not even his wife of his fiance’ ) and HER ‘family’ to take a ‘trip around the WORLD’.
Regarding the LODD ( Line of Duty Death ) benefit.
That has NOTHING to do with this ‘Arizona 100 Club’..
It is mandated by LAW.
If a deceased fireman was not married… then the direct ‘beneficiaries’ for the LODD death benefit(s) are that fireman’s BIOLOGICAL PARENTS.
Yet Marcia McKee has supposedly still never seen one penny of any LODD benefit.
There is ALSO still credible evidence that when Marcia McKee first arrived in Prescott following the tragedy… she hesitated to sign papers that would authorize the autopsy for her son, Grant. She started simply asking ‘questions’ and then the Prescott Fire officials she was meeting with just tried to shut her up and FORCE her to sign to the papers they were shoving in front of her.
When she continued to refuse… a policeman who was there supposedly grabbed her by the arm… and she pushed him away saying “Get your HANDS OFF ME”.
She supposedly left that meeting at that time… but then Prescott Police officers showed up at the hotel where she was staying and tried to ARREST her.
All this from people who run around saying…
“We take care of our own”
Sounds like that motto keeps leaving out the ‘second part of it’.
“We take care of our own… as long as you ‘play ball’ and don’t piss us off.”
Don’t I know that…its awful behaviors to be seen but I too have seen awfulness… Something does not add up…something ain’t right…so the world needs to know all these details media leaves out Diane
Strange— in a WORK related death the company has the authority to do a complete Autopsy even a government agency. IT IS SOP
County Fire, City Fire and Sheriffs and police can require a full Autopsy in a Accidental death. The Family has no say in that because they were on duty at the time. Thus the authority to run Alcohol and drug tests.
YCSO seems to be way out of bounds here to even ask such a thing.
Reply to Bob Powers post on July 31, 2016 at 1:16 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Strange— in a WORK related death the company
>> has the authority to do a complete Autopsy even
>> a government agency. IT IS SOP.
You are absolutely correct… with one minor correction.
Even the ‘company’ itself, who was in charge of the ‘workplace’ where the fatalities took place… does not have JACK SHIT to say about it.
It is the POLICE who are INVESTIGATING the ‘potential’ crime scene who have to the full authority to request/order the autopsies.
An ‘accident’ scene is always a ‘crime’ scene until the Medical Examiner tells the detectives it is NOT.
Until a Medical Examiner rules a death to be ‘accidental’ or from ‘natural causes’… the POLICE are required to conduct their investigation as IF it might turn out to be ‘something else’.
That is what makes what ( supposedly ) happened to Marcia McKee so ABSURD.
However… regardless of the fact that the Medical Examiner’s office, in this particular case, was basically REQUIRED to do the autopsies and certainly did not NEED the permission of all the ‘family members’… that doesn’t mean the dolts in Prescott fully understood that the very day following the tragedy.
They ( the Prescott Fire Department dolts that Marcia McKee WAS ‘meeting with’ that next morning ) might have THOUGHT they needed these ‘signed releases’… and ‘most ricky-tick’ so there would be no ‘delays’.
They were also already ‘planning’ processions and memorials and parades and trying to handle the media and were basically still just ‘freaked out’ over the whole thing and, themselves, ‘overwhelmed’ with all the shit that now had to happen.
So when even just one ‘family member’ seemed to hesitate to just “go along with their plans”, at that point, they seemed to have just gone BALLISTIC ( themselves ) and ‘went off’ all over a mother who had just lost her own son and who had just stepped off an airplane from California.
It fits right in with what would happen soon after that with regards to the ‘Memorial’ park there at the Prescott Pioneer Cemetery.
An agreement had been reached… and the ‘memorial’ area and final resting place for SOME ( but certainly not ALL ) of the GM Hotshots was under construction.
But when Prescott Fire Department and designated ‘GM Family Representative’ J.P. Vicente didn’t think it was coming out the way the ‘families’ wanted it… He ended up showing up with his OWN ‘work crews’ to try and FORCE it to come out HIS way ( and according to what HE thought the ‘families’ wanted ).
That’s when the POLICE had to be called again… but this time it was to ‘arrest’ the J.P. Vicente guy for refusing to stop what he and his work crews were doing and leave the cemetery property.
So it really turned into ( and remains? ) “crazy town” there in Prescott apparently from the very night of June 30, 2013 and onward.
But that is still NO EXCUSE for treating at least one ( or more? ) of the ‘family members’ badly… just because they might not want to “go along” with your ‘plans’.
This is what happens when you think you are in the “HERO BUSINESS”. You can easily start stepping in it all over the place and you think your actions are ALL totally ( and automatically ) justified.
Why would this happen?
Reply to Diane lomas post on July 30, 2016 at 8:54 pm
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> If Marcia McKee is not listed on her son’s paperwork as a
>> beneficiary is she still eligible to receive benefits and/or
>> donations from the 100 club?
That’s not how this ‘Arizona 100’ Club works.
They help WHO they want…. WHEN they want… with as MUCH ‘help’ as they want… regardless of any ‘paperwork’.
The bottom line for them is… if WE decide you are ‘worthy’ of help… then we ‘might’ give it to you… but if WE decide you are ‘not worthy’… then you get NOTHING.
And THEY are totally in control of the ‘criteria’.
Piss them off… ( no matter WHO you are )… and you get NOTHING.
Marcia McKee was Grant McKee’s biological mother.
And there is absolutely NO indication there were any ‘strains’ on that relationship.
Quite the opposite.
The following is a link to a PUBLIC copy of the ‘Notice of Claim’ for the first ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit filed by Marcia McKee on behalf of her deceased son, Grant McKee.
It was ‘filed’ on November 14, 2013.
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kpho/KPHO%20NEWS/YARNELL%20FIRE%20SUIT-%20notice%20of%20claim.pdf
From that document…
——————————————————————————-
5. The Death of Grante McKee Has Caused Tremendous Suffering to Marcia McKee
Marcia McKee always had a close and loving relationship with her son, but that
bond was growing even STRONGER in the years before his death. Just after he had
finished his basic training to become a Granite Mountain Hotshot, Grant McKee had
sent his mother a note explaining how much
she meant to him. He used the word “Marcia” to start the note because, as he later
explained to her, they were both adults, and could now appreciate each other
both as mother and son, and as adults:
Marcia, I don’t believe I would be where I am today if it was not for you.
You gave me all you could and would put your life on the line for me.
Now as an adult I see the struggles you went through to make my life the
best it could be, you were able to make the best of every situation and
I commend you for it. We are BEST FRIENDS and that will NEVER CHANGE.
You are first my mother and second my friend for life. You’re an amazing
person and don’t let anyone tell you different.
Love, your graduate,
Grant Quinn McKee
——————————————————————————-
I have received some questions from an avid reader who does not post here that I can’t answer. In fact…I can’t even wrap my head around the questions without knowing more about the history of the Payson Hotshots and Scott Norris’ time on that magnificent crew with the best looking hardhats in the nation…bar none.
I am pretty sure the best person to ask these questions to and to fill in these blanks will be…long time and highly respected former Payson Hotshot Crew Boss, Mr. Fred Schoeffler who is also an alumnus of the Oak Grove Hotshots. But…we all have things in our backgrounds we are not particularly proud of.
For example, when I was 19, I cut down a big ponderosa pine without any training or safety equipment, chaps, eye or ear protection and even gloves. That big ole yellow pine (a really old and big ponderosa) had been hit by lightning and had some fire high up in its trunk, what a dumb ass…right?
And just in case any of you young whippersnappers out there think wearing ear protection is NOT important, I can tell you that I start to answer almost every question I am asked by saying, “I’m sorry…what was that?”
But please forgive me…once again I digress. So…here are some of my questions for Fred.
1. What was your chronological work history with the Payson Hotshots; including positions and the approximate dates you held those positions?
2. Who succeeded you as the Payson Hotshot Crew Boss? And what was the Payson Hotshot Crew Boss chain of succession after that person up to and including the crew boss now…if applicable? For all I know, Payson still has the same crew boss who replaced you?
3. When was Scott Norris on the Payson Hotshots? Who was his crew boss if it wasn’t you? Who were the squad bosses during Scott’s time on the crew? Who were his squad bosses? What positions did Scott hold on the Payson Hotshots and for how long? For example, was he a squad boss or a senior crewman?
Thank you so much in advance for the answers to these questions. I will be more than happy to publish the original questions I received after I fill in these blanks…and maybe a few others.
Gary,
Here is some of the information you requested in the form of a SWCC link for the Payson HS with contact information.
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/IHC_list.html#payson
You will need to contact the Superintendent for the information you seek, since Scott Norris worked for him.
I do know that Scott had expressed GMHS safety concerns to him a month or so prior to the YH Fire.
He also said they did their best to talk him out of and dissuade him from going to the GMHS. Scott wanted to get closer to his girlfriend.
Gary,
I forgot to respond to Question 1.
Just GTS “Hot Shot Crew History in America”
That’s where I looked after I saw Gary’s questions. I found it on page 169 of this:
http://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dc/nmsdc/documents/Crews/NMSDC_Hotshot_Crew_History_2013.pdf
Fred Schoeffler: 1981-2007
Mike Schinstock 2007-present (he must be the tall one with dark hair in the photo Joy (my awesome former personal cheerleader) posted hiking to a fire in single file. Looks like a good superintendent!
Thanks for the reminder of that hotshot crew history paper. It’s a great read!
Woodstock
RTS,
What is the difference between a crew superintendent and a detailed crew superintendent?
Also, I couldn’t find a section for Blue Ridge. What gives?
Muzzy,
The Crew Superintendent is the incumbent, fully qualified, and the one serving in that position.
A “detail” is an official, temporary hiring category that could be a position at the same pay grade or higher..
A ‘Detailed” Crew Superintendent would be an interim, fully qualified employee on a 60, 90, 120 day detail or temporary assignment. These can be ‘official’ or ‘unofficial.’
A ‘detail’ is an official hiring that requires a personnel action, in the form of a SF-50 Notice of Personnel Action. Federal law prohibits agencies from detailing employees for more than 120 days unless the detail has been renewed.
An ‘unofficial’ detail may be one where your supervisor asks you to ‘fill-in’ for someone temporarily. To get credit for your ‘time in grade’ it has to be an official detail.
Sometimes, a personnel action was never processed, and therefore, the employee was never ‘officially’ detailed to the position, so he gets screwed.
I hope that helped rather than confused you. It’s a Guvament thang, ya know.
I have no idea why Blue Ridge HS is not included. I’ll find out and let you know.
Thanks, RTS,
It does make sense, except the part about how easy it is to be screwed. Best to be nice to the office staff, I suppose…
Say…while you are at it, could you find out why there is no mention (that I could find anyway?) about the Happy Jack Hotshots who were on the Coconino National Forest in the “Hotshot Crew History in America” publication? Thank you.
Gary,
The edited response on the Happy Jack HS is :”get with the Santa Fe Supt and do a write up … Happy Jack became the Santa Fe Hotshots. I’m sure there is a rich history story there. This project that I’ve been working on since taking it from Tony Sciacca requires work.”
Thank you. I would like to help you with that.
Gary,I sent you an email. It’s ALL yours. YOU have to do it ALL and then submit the completed Happy Jack HS history to Provencio
Oh..I just meant I didn’t want to step on your toes if it was your baby. I don’t really think you can help me since you don’t really know a fucking thing about the Happy Jack Hotshots.
Gary,
That is MOSTLY correct. I know a few ‘fucking thing[s] about the Happy Jack Hotshots’ but the HS History task is ALL f**king YOURS. If you want to tell their f**king story, then YOU tell their f**king story.
Muzzy,
You asked “what gives” with the Hotshot Crew History in America not including the Blue Ridge Hot Shots ….
What gives is, I used the incorrect (‘old link’), so here is the new and correct link which does include the Blue Ridge HS.
https://higherlogicdownload.s3-external-1.amazonaws.com/WILDFIRELESSONS/Hotshot_Crew_History_2015.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJH5D4I4FWRALBOUA&Expires=1470004331&Signature=fW8O6mnTN%2BXJ4B%2F2zoJkL%2FEdELg%3D
Sorry ’bout that.
Thank you, RTS. I appreciate your efforts!
Thank you so much for the link. However, I was hoping to get some information about your former crew directly from you since I know how much you appreciated me sharing so much background info with you regarding the Santa Fe Hotshots. It is so much more personal coming from one old friend to another wouldn’t you agree?
For example did you work with or train Mike Schinstock or Jon Ward? Did they come up through the ranks of your crew or were they from the outside?
And…I would really appreciate you answering questions one and two directly since they have to do with your time running the crew and not Mr. Schinstock’s tenure…right? In addition, I imagine you know the answers to number 3…don’t you? You are after all…plugged into the R3 hotshot matrix, even if you were a little off (OK…Way Off) on the history of the Santa Fe Hotshots.
I know I have a lot of time on my hands but it would be so much easier for you to answer all of these questions directly since I am sure you know the answers. After all…we all want the same thing here, more clarity regarding exactly why the GMIHC died and what can be done to prevent such a terrible thing from happening again and we are on the same team…aren’t we? .
1. What was your chronological work history with the Payson Hotshots; including positions and the approximate dates you held those positions?
2. Who succeeded you as the Payson Hotshot Crew Boss? And what was the Payson Hotshot Crew Boss chain of succession after that person up to and including the crew boss now…if applicable? For all I know, Payson still has the same crew boss who replaced you?
3. When was Scott Norris on the Payson Hotshots? Who was his crew boss? Who were the squad bosses during Scott’s time on the crew? Who was his squad boss? What positions did Scott hold on the Payson Hotshots and for how long? For example, was he a squad boss or a senior crewman?
Thank you so much in advance for your continuing cooperation.
Gary,
You posted: “… did you work with or train Mike Schinstock or Jon Ward? Did they come up through the ranks of your crew or were they from the outside?”
Fred Schoeffler is known to have worked with and trained both Mike Schinstock and Jon Ward.
Jon Ward came up through the ranks of the Payson HS Crew and Mike Schinstock came from the outside, first as a filler, then Crewmember to Senior to Squad Boss to Assistant Foreman, then eventually Supt.
We are definitely on the same team and want the same answers about more clarity regarding exactly why the GMIHC died and what can be done to prevent such a terrible thing from happening again.
I am definitely NOT “running” from your questions, “hiding” the answers, or have any “sins” of my own I should feel guilty about. I confess those to Jesus and I am forgiven.
Yes, I am responsible for them.
It’s too bad that some people might think you are baiting me with your constant references to my faith in God (I don;t have a religion, I have a relationship with Jesus). I agree that you are simply giving me the opportunity to share my views with everyone who reads this blog. Yes, that is a tenet of my faith and it is our First Amendment right of Free Speech.
Anything else?
Sounds to me like Mike Schinstock came up through the ranks as well, rather than from the “outside.”
You said, “Mike Schinstock came from the outside, first as a filler, then Crewmember to Senior to Squad Boss to Assistant Foreman, then eventually Supt.”
Gee…I think the only way to come up through the ranks any more than that would be to be born in the back of the Payson Hotshot crew carrier to a Payson hotshot who was fathered by a Payon hotshot and delivered by the Payon hotshot crew boss.
You have really high standards to NOT be considered to be from the “outside.”
You said, “Fred Schoeffler is known to have worked with and trained both Mike Schinstock and Jon Ward.”
This is really starting to get weird if you are now referring to yourself in the third person.
Thank you…you really are a peach!
Oh…and one more thing. You can run but you can’t hide. We are all responsible for our past sins.
Oh…and one more thing. This comment was must more hyperbole on my part which as you know, I am prone to do. I did not intend to suggest that you are “running” from my questions, “hiding” the answers, or have any “sins” of your own you should feel guilty about or responsible for. You are clean as a whistle in my book. You are after all…a man of God. Or at least a man who loves God and Jesus Christ…right? A Christian?
Gary,
You posted:
“1. What was your chronological work history with the Payson Hotshots; including positions and the approximate dates you held those positions?
Fred Schoeffler is known to have been a Payson HS Crewmember in 1974.
Refer to the ‘Hot Shot Crew History in America” page 169 for the rest
“2. Who succeeded you as the Payson Hotshot Crew Boss? And what was the Payson Hotshot Crew Boss chain of succession after that person up to and including the crew boss now…if applicable? For all I know, Payson still has the same crew boss who replaced you?
It is documented in the ‘Hot Shot Crew History in America” on page 169 that James Osborne replaced Fred Schoeffler in 2007 as the ‘detailed’ HS Supt.
Refer to the ‘Hot Shot Crew History in America” on page 169 for the remainder of your question.
The current Payson HS Supt. is the one that replaced James Osborne and is still the current Supt. per http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/people/hotshots/IHC_list.html#payson
“3. When was Scott Norris on the Payson Hotshots? Who was his crew boss if it wasn’t you? Who were the squad bosses during Scott’s time on the crew? Who were his squad bosses? What positions did Scott hold on the Payson Hotshots and for how long? For example, was he a squad boss or a senior crewman?
According to Scott Norris’ biography and the current Payson HS Supt. Scott Norris worked for the Payson HS in 2012 and the current Supt. was the Supt. at the time.
I do not know who the Squad Bosses were during that time nor do I know who Scott Norris’ Squad Boss was. From what I have been told, Norris was not a Squad Boss but may have been a Senior Crewmember.
You will have to get a hold of the current Payson Supt. for anything further. They spoke very highly of him.
I went to his funeral services in Prescott and after hearing about him, I cried. I wished I would have known him better. He seemed like a good Hot Shot and a great young man.
Yes, I am a Christian, a man who loves God and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and a sinner like everyone else.
I trust in Him with all my heart and lean not on my own understanding. In all my ways I acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.… Proverbs 3:5-6
WELL…you are certainly NOT plugged in as much as I thought you were to the hotshot matrix and the Payson Hotshot culture in particular! But thank you so much for trying so hard to help me…help someone else.
Unfortunately, I have a policy to keep all of my kibitzing within the confines of this blog and the participates here…so I will not be reaching out to Mr. Shinstock…thank you anyway.
I was asked (in part) by a loyal reader why not one single hotshot on the doomed Granite Mountain Inter-agency Hotshot Crew said on that fateful day said, “I am not going down that chimney and I don’t think you should either.”
And based on many of your previous posts and theories, I would have thought that person would have been Scott Norris given his background and trainng.
Why do you think Scott Norris did not stand up and refuse to be a sheep and a victim of Groupthink?
And there is ONE more thing I am doing for you. Some people might think I am baiting you with my constant references to your religion…but nothing could be further from the truth. I am simply giving you the opportunity to share your views with everyone who reads this blog. That is a tenet of you faith…right? Your welcome.
Oh…and one more thing. I am glad you attended Scott Norris’ funeral and cried for him. I didn’t need to attend his funeral to cry for him and 18 other members of the crew.
Gary,
You posted:
“I would have thought that person would have been Scott Norris given his background and [training].”
“Why do you think Scott Norris did not stand up and refuse to be a sheep and a victim of Groupthink?”
During the Family YH Fire Staff Ride, Roxanne Warneke, at Stand 5 (at the drop off point above the BSR), when I said the GMHS had no lookout, never informed AA or any supervisor of their intentions, etc. and that there was a lot of Grouthink going on that day said:
‘Yes, I know, but my husband Billy would have been the leader of the group telling the others not to leave their Safety Zone and go down there.’
I too think that Scott Norris, given his background and training, would have been that guy standing up and refusing to be a sheep and a victim of Groupthink.
“Why do you think Scott Norris did not stand up and refuse to be a sheep and a victim of Groupthink?”
See above. I think he did or at least I want to believe in my heart that he did stand up and refuse to be a sheep and a victim of Groupthink.
You also posted: “I have a policy to keep all of my kibitzing within the confines of this blog and the participates here…so I will not be reaching out to Mr. Shinstock…thank you anyway.”
It is not kibitzing. It is a Hot Shot Supt. inquiring about a deceased Crewmember with another HS Supt.
CALL HIM or email him.
I know that Mrs. Warneke said, ‘Yes, I know, but my husband Billy would have been the leader of the group telling the others not to leave their Safety Zone and go down there.’
And yes, I am generally aware of what it takes to become a Marine Scout/Sniper and I agree he SHOULD and COULD have been the one to save the crew that day…but the fact remains that he did not.
I do not mean any offense to Mrs. Warneke but…there are very good reasons why investigators, prosecutors and judges recuse themselves from cases in which they could have a conflict of interest or even the appearance of a conflict of interest. I don’t believe anything any family members in this case says about their deceased loved ones except for personal memories and observations…and you shouldn’t either.
And although I would expect nothing less of Mrs. Warneke in defense of her now deceased husband, the fact remains he is now deceased because he did not refuse to follow the others down that deadly chimney.
We will never know (unless there are hidden taped conversations) what steps Mr. Warneke took NOT to die as the result of Groupthink, the only thing we know is that he DID die as the result of Groupthink.
In addition, I am also aware of your fantastical claims regarding why you “too think that Scott Norris, given his background and training, would have been that guy standing up and refusing to be a sheep and a victim of Groupthink” And in fact…that is why we are even having this discussion…you started it.
But when questioned for some background information to support your “fantastical” claims regarding why you think Mr. Norris did ANYTHING to either save himself or the others, you have done little more than provide me with links to a list of hotshot crews and a sketchy and deeply flawed history of hotshot crews.
If you don’t know anything about Scott Norris’ background and history as a Payson Hotshot…why are you offering completely unsupported claims regarding why you “think” he did anything other than die as a sheep and a victim of Groupthink? Which just happens to be human frailties you have condemned over and over again on this blog.
Gary,
You are correct, I know nothing about Scott Norris’ background and history as a Payson Hotshot, other than what I have been told by other Payson Hot Shots that knew him and worked with him.
I guess I am “offering completely unsupported claims regarding why [I] “think” he did anything other than die as a sheep and a victim of Groupthink” because he was a PAYSON HOT SHOT; and Schinstock and all the other Payson Hot Shots trained in the PAYSON HOT SHOT ‘Old School’ way and so Norris would have and/or should have been the one(s) stepping up and opposing it.
PAYSON HOT SHOTS back when and now are NOT Goupthinkers!
We have had this discussion before. PAYSON HOT SHOT were trained to think independently AND as a Crew. They encouraged their FF’s to speak up if they didn’t like something about a plan or whatever.
As I posted earlier, Norris shared with his fellow Payson HS supervisors and friends during the 2013 fire season, that he felt uncomfortable about some of the things the GMHS did on fires.
So, yes it is conjecture on my part, however, I strongly feel that Norris AND OTHERS would have been the one(s) speaking up about the GMHS plan to leave the black.
And I believe that Billy Warneke would have as well based on what he wife said.
Obviously, others did not feel that way and/or they were told to shut up and/or they were threatened and.or intimidated, whatever – they all went down together.
Gary,
Scott Norris CLARIFICATION: I posted: “I guess I am “offering completely unsupported claims regarding why [I] “think” he did anything other than die as a sheep and a victim of Groupthink” because he was a PAYSON HOT SHOT; and Schinstock and all the other Payson Hot Shots trained in the PAYSON HOT SHOT ‘Old School’ way and so Norris would have and/or should have been the one(s) stepping up and opposing it.”
What I meant to say is: I guess I am “offering completely unsupported claims regarding why [I] “think” he did anything other than die as a sheep and a victim of Groupthink.” BECAUSE he was trained as a PAYSON HOT SHOT; by Supt. Schinstock and all the other Payson Hot Shots and trained in the ‘Old School’ way of HOW to think, Norris would have and/or should have been the one(s) stepping up and opposing it.
Copy that…thank you.
WOW Glad I went on a Camping trip.
I did not need to jump in on the past 3 days.
Yes Gary I even Caught Fish. The Salmon are still running in the Stanly Basin Salmon River.
I could unload volumes on CAL FIRE (CDF)
RTS is right on Southern Cal Terrain, it is dam Steep and if you get off a ridge or onto a Razor Back ridge with a Cat you can get in real trouble. Not to mention Rocks Granit and otherwise.
Yes they use Cats Night and Day. A good scout can keep them out of trouble TRACTOR BOSS Old school. Also most Tractor operators in my day came off of logging crews they operated in that kind of terrain all their lives. Also we built a lot of Fire breaks in Southern Calif. with Cats and highly qualified Operators. Never saw any of those guys roll their Tractors.
Cal Fire copied the LA COUNTY structure as did FS Captains and Battalion Chiefs are becoming the Nomenclature. Goes with ICS and showing up in Job Descriptions now.
Here is a link to the already-established ‘Incident’ page a the “Wildland Lessons Learned Center” ( LLC ) for this fatal accident that killed dozer operator Robert Oliver Reagan III.
Only 3 documents there so far.
Initial CalFire press release announcing the fatality.
Second CalFire press release identifying victim as Mr. Robert Oliver Reagan III. ( 35 years old )
The 24 hour report.
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=68b83258-f54d-494e-adc7-4e534adce577
Other articles now confirm that CalFire has already fired up their own “Special Accident Investigation Team ( SAIT ) to look into the fatal accident.
No word on whether the corresponding ( required ) OSHA investigation has started yet.
The OTHER bulldozer that ‘rolled over’ on this SAME DAMN FIRE ( but that operator did not DIE ) happened the very same DAY…. in the AFTERNOON… just hours before the same thing would happen at 11:10 PM that night and KILL Mr. Robert Oliver Reagan III.
Followup…
Direct link to the 24-hour ‘fatality’ report from CalFire for Mr. Robert Oliver Reagan III…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=05e8607c-6870-6c9c-7741-9995fd1ff6a7&forceDialog=0
As Robert the Second ( RTS ) already pointed out… the ‘Corrective Actions’ section of the report is as follows…
———————————————————————–
RECOMMENDATIONS FOR IMMEDIATE CORRECTIVE ACTIONS
NO recommendations for immediate corrective actions were
identified within the first 24 hours of this review.
.———————————————————————–
Not even a “Be careful out there”.
They already rolled TWO dozers in the same day within 8 hours…. maybe they are going for THREE in the same day?
The following article confirms that they had ALREADY had a dozer rollover the SAME DAY… on the SAME DAMN FIRE… only about 8 hours BEFORE Mr Reagan would do the same thing and lose his life…
KTVU – FOX 2
Bulldozer operator killed while battling wildfire identified
Published: Jul 28 2016 02:57 PM PDT
http://www.ktvu.com/news/182867779-story
From the article…
————————————————————–
Another bulldozer overturned Tuesday afternoon but the operator, who was hired through a private company, wasn’t injured, Cal Fire officials said.
————————————————————–
And the article also contains the ‘official’ response from the Incident Commander of this fire where they rolled 2 dozers in one day and the second rollover killed Mr. Reagan…
——————————————–
CalFire incident commander Todd Derum said in a statement Wednesday…
“Firefighting is an inherently dangerous job with great risk involved.”
——————————————–
Another article that has some ‘background’ on Mr. Reagan himself.
It says he was a ‘race car driver’ and the person who ran the Speedway where Reagan raced said he was “intensely competitive”…
The Sierra Star
Robert Reagan, Yosemite grad and race car driver, killed while battling Soberanes Fire
Published: July 28, 2016 11:43 AM
http://www.sierrastar.com/news/local/article92377502.html
From the article…
——————————————————————
Reagan was a race car driver who finished third in the 2014 Enduro division at the LoanMart Madera Speedway before he moved into dirt-track racing.
Kenny Shepherd, the Speedway’s owner and promoter, said Reagan was intensely competitive while on the track.
“He’d be very competitive, but he raced for the right reasons,” Shepherd said. “He was well liked by his friends, he always gave out big smiles, but he was SERIOUS AS HE CAN BE behind the wheel.”
Shepherd said calls have been “pouring in” from fellow racers who are planning fundraisers, at the Speedway and elsewhere, to honor Reagan and support his family.
——————————————————————
Maybe a little “too competitive”?
Maybe some ‘human factors’ involved here?
It will be interesting to learn the circumstances ( all of them ) surrounding the rollover and the ‘assignments’.
WTKTT,
Human factors, indeed! More like a game of chicken. Take time to improve the grade? No time! Too dangerous for you? Move on and let the next man do it! You won’t get paid, and you’ll never work again, but it’s your choice.
Some choice.
It looks like the GoFundMe site is collecting enough to pay off the mortgage and maybe pay for some college. Sympathy to the wife and daughters. RIP Mr. Reagan.
It will be interesting to learn just how much the ‘competitive’ aspects of even BEING a Calfire ‘independent contractor’ may ( or may NOT ) have ‘come into play’ here.
It’s just odd that, within 24 hours of his death, people who knew him well are saying that one of his most prominent personality traits was that he was “intensely competitive”.
this is Sonny. I tried to post under my name but I am invisible. I died once before and maybe again but the way Muzzy puts it is exactly how it is and explains why those under Marsh and Steed did not object to a situation if they had there would be retribution.
I hope you took some photos of those fish to back up your claims.
Sorry Gary as I have said before I am not a Camera person my wife is but she is no fan of Fishing so she was back in camp 10 miles away..
As all 3 were native 17 to 20 Inches I had to release them immediately. If they had Clipped dorsal fins they could be kept Mine did not. So catch and release and on their way. Non the less a lot of fun.
Bob,
Glad you caught some fish & had a good time. Sounds like a great retirement plan to me!
Woodfish
Bob,
Glad you had a good time, it sounds like fun.
No camera? WTF?
Surely, you had a phone. Even ‘dumb phones’ have cameras.
They do but I am having issues with mine do not have a memory chip and the Memory is full cant save Pictures going to Verizon Monday will probably have to upgrade to the fancy one then I will be in trouble.
Any way was surprised that the Salmon run was still on had a huge # of fish this year 35 years ago you could walk across the Salmon river on Fish in the Stanly basin at least it looked like it.
I know sounds like a big fish story but it was true that’s why there is a place there called RED FISH LAKE the end of their swim.
Also Killed Quite a few Elk over the years up there out of Stanley.
Deer in Ketchum area and Goose and Duck on the river and in the Fields along the Snake River here in the Valley.
Pheasants, Chucker’s, Quail and Sage Grouse.
That’s why I moved here that’s why I stayed.
My life style Best place I have ever been.
Working with my 7th Lab she’s going on 7 still have Two Horses to get to the HIGH and LONESOME.
I am glad you had a good time Bob and caught some fish.
**
** IN FOR A “REAL TREAT” ?????
The FAN CLUB for actor Taylor Kitsh ( who is playing Andrew Ashcraft in this Granite Mountain ‘fillum’ thing ) is still hard at it… posting almost HOURLY sometimes with anything and everything they can find ‘out there’ online with regards to the movie.
Their postings are up to 20 ( TWENTY ) pages now and here is a link to the latest page…
http://www.fanforum.com/f309/%5Bno-exit-granite-mountain%5D-thread-1-we-cant-wait-see-taylor-firefighter-63171824/index20.html
NOTE: Links to all other pages are on a little ‘control bar’ at top/bottom of pate.
Yesterday… they found the following PUBLIC ‘Tweet’ made by actress Andie MacDowell, who is playing Marvel Stenibrink… Duane Steninbrink’s wife.
Actor Jeff Bridges is playing Prescott’s FIRST Wildland Division Chief Duane Steinbrink, the man who ‘passed over’ Eric Marsh as his replacement when he ‘retired’ in 2010 ( because he didn’t think Marsh was qualified to replace him ) and instead brought non-WFF Darrell Willis out of retirement to be the SECOND Prescott Wildland Division Chief.
Actress Andie MacDowell’s PUBLIC ‘Tweet’ from yesterday…
https://twitter.com/AndieMacDowell3/status/758399251101605889
——————————————————————-
Andie MacDowell
Proud to be working on the movie #GraniteMountain
just watched an amazing performance… you are in for a treat folks
——————————————————————-
“you are in for a real TREAT folks”
Seriously?
Has anyone actually TOLD actress Andie MacDowell what this movie is really ABOUT?
That it ENDS with a Historic National Tragedy and 19 men dying horribly on the floor of a BLIND box canyon full of explosive unburned fuel, with no lookout, at the height of the burn cycle?
I don’t care what ‘scene’ she is talking about… “in for a real TREAT” doesn’t sound like an appropriate thing to say… on any level.
According to other PUBLIC posts… the ‘PP’ ( Principal Photography ) phase has now transitioned from ‘in the field’ FIRE related action to “IN TOWN” scenes and they have been filming a lot of scenes in their FAKE ‘Granite Mountain Station 7’ and other FAKE ‘Prescott’ areas.
So, since Andie MacDowell is playing Marvel Stenibrink, my guess is that they finally got around to filming the scene where actress Jennifer Connelly ( playing Amanda Marsh ) first receives that phone call at home on Sunday evening asking her if she had heard from Eric… because the entire Granite Mountain crew was ‘missing’ down in Yarnell.
There’s a well-reported ( by Amanda Marsh herself ) series of events there surrounding that timeframe which ended up with Eric and Amanda Marsh’s NEIGHBORS, Duane and Marvel Steinbrink, driving Amanda into town that evening to the meeting that was set up in Prescott to ‘inform’ all the family members about the fate of Granite Mountain.
Amanda herself described the ‘ride into town’ that evening with details like she was just sort of collapsed in the back seat of the Steinbrink’s car, clutching Eric’s Cowboy hat with her head on Marvel Steinbrink’s lap… while Duane Steinbrink is driving and receiving numerous calls on his cellphone… and he would keep saying over his shoulder “The news is NOT GOOD”.
If that is actually the ‘scene’ they finally got around to putting “in the can”… then I don’t care how ‘good’ the ‘acting’ is/was… describing the result as “We are all in for a real TREAT when we see it” seems HIGHLY ‘inappropriate’.
Oh well. I guess it’s good to hear they are all having FUN over there doing what they do ( and making MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars in salary at the same time ).
And speaking of “doing what they do”… this ‘Taylor Kitsch’ FAN CLUB is actually doing their own “slowly we turned” moment now and realizing what this movie that features their ‘hunky’ interest Taylor Kitsch is really ABOUT.
Here is one of the latest comments… posted right after someone found that PUBLIC ‘Tweet’ about (supposedly) “What a TREAT is in store for all of us”…
——————————————————————————-
Comment by: KitchenSunk
Dedicated Taylor Kitsch Fan – Yesterday at 9:40 PM
I’ve come to the conclusion that I wish Peter Berg were directing this. I was watching footage of the Southern California wildfire over the weekend, and I realized this movie needs to truly be special — to honor not only the 19 men who lost their lives but also the ones who are still putting their own in danger every day. Lone Survivor did that in spades. Even The Perfect Storm, the movie the producers referenced, did that with fishermen and women. Meanwhile, this director has made exactly two movies of note — a Tron sequel and a Tom Cruise movie that was great visually but so derivative story-wise it put me to sleep in the theater.
They better not SCREW THIS MOVIE UP.
That’s all I’m saying.
———————————————————————————
And…
———————————————————————————
Comment by: elherts
Dedicated Taylor Kitsch Fan
We are so wrapped up in Taylor in this movie and that Jake Picking is goodlooking, that
we forget that this movie is about REAL PEOPLE with FAMILIES who want to make sure
the film is done right. I can totally understand that. I hope that the film is
a tribute and that it is done well.
———————————————————————————
I don’t think these ‘FANS’ realize, even yet, that there are a LOT of people ( REAL ‘Family Members’ included ) who still don’t think this ‘fillum’ should be being made at all.
Apologies. ‘Stupidphone’ spellchecker went nuts again on the name ‘Steinbrink’
Sentence above should have read like this…
“Yesterday… they found the following PUBLIC ‘Tweet’ made by actress Andie MacDowell, who is playing Marvel Steinbrink… Duane Steinbrink’s wife.”
Prescott’s FIRST Wildland Division Chief was named ‘Duane Steinbrink’.
Not ‘Steninbrink’.
I’m the Taylor Kitsch fan (“KitscherSunk”) who wrote the first item you pasted here, about wishing Peter Berg was directing the film.
I understand this story is a personal one to many very real people. As I said, I hope the film is a good one, to shine a light on the heroism of firefighters in general, and the tragedy of the Hot Shots in particular. But I don’t appreciate being dismissed as either disrespectful or some empty-headed “fangirl.” I am neither, I assure you.
If you have a problem with the tone of the conversation on the Fan Forum board, why not go there and post instead of complaining here? It’s a public forum; anyone can join. I’m sure your input would be welcome. In fact, you and others here who feel so passionately about this could enlighten us on the incident, the families, the aftermath and the controversy surrounding the film.
Just please don’t insult people you don’t know.
By the way, I have no official capacity at the Fan Forum. I’m speaking solely for myself.
“The Forest Service is required to “in all ways that are practicable, aid in the enforcement
of the laws of the States or Territories…for the prevention and extinguishment of forest
fires[.]” 16 U.S.C. § 553. As noted in a 2006 report by the Department of Agriculture
Inspector General, HOMEOWNER RELIANCE ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO PROVIDE SUPPRESSION SERVICES IN THE WUI PLACES A SUBSTANTIAL BURDEN ON THE FOREST SERVICE. Department of Agriculture, Office of Inspector General Western Region, Audit Report:
Forest Service Large Fire Suppression Costs, Report No. 08601-44-SF (Washington,
D.C.: November 2006).” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
http://www.gao.gov/assets/680/672579.pdf
There is NO Federal authority that I know of that allows the US Government to actually fight fire ON private property. The Federal Government is allowed to take suppression actions to both PREVENT fires from ENTERING and/or THREATENING Federal property. The State Forest and/or Sate lands Departments for private land fire suppression )varies by State), and the local Fire Departments and/or Fire Districts are allowed to legally fight fire on private property.
The Federal Agencies often cite, as their statutory authority, 42 U.S.C., Section 1856a, authority to enter into reciprocal agreement; waiver of claims; reimbursement; ratification of prior agreements. Public Law 114-38.
42 U.S.C., Section 1856a, authority to enter into reciprocal agreement; waiver of claims; reimbursement; ratification of prior agreements. Public Law 114-38.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1856a
Today is the 14th anniversary of the Stanza Fire multiple fatalities from an Engine rollover.
The 6-Minutes for Safety ‘This Day in History’ overview link is below.
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/six-minutes-for-safety/This-Day-in-History/TDIH_StanzaVehicleRollover.pdf
Nighttime in typical Klamath NF smoky conditions , carbon monixide dulling sense and impaired judgement influences, very narrow roads, very steep terrain, cumulative fatigue, and fairly inexperienced driver.
I do NOT give any credence to the inner rear dual tire having less tread issue being even remotely a causal factor.
“Of the dual tires that slipped off the road first, the inside tire had significantly less tread than the other tires (less than the acceptable standard). There is an entry in the vehicle log book that the left
inner dual needs replacing.”
WE NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON THAT GOD FORSAKEN MOTHER FUCKING “ROAD”!!!
The IMT should have been prosecuted for manslaughter directly for their demands and unrealistic expectations. I’ve read all the lies and cover-up. I will defend Ms. DePaolo until my last dying breath.
Woodsman
Woody Woodsman,
Heather DePaolo was a friend. I feel the same way.
There is a Wildland Fire LLC Two More Chains article titled “Wheels, Wings, and Rotors – Getting There and Back.It’s Our Most Dangerous Activity–How Come?”
There is a rather disturbing short piece on the Engine 11 Fatality Incident titled “Is Anyone Else Alive?” on pages 4-5.
Because the IM is rather fickle when it comes to Wildland Fire LLC links, no matter how many times I try it will not post, so go to the main Wildland Fire LLC site, then search for the ‘FALL 2012: Two More Chains article.
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/home
Direct link to page that has that ‘FALL 2012: Two More Chains” article…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/communities/community-home/librarydocuments/viewdocument?DocumentKey=7f614138-8ab0-4840-a931-dabec4f38a82&CommunityKey=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&tab=librarydocuments
The following link to the actual ‘FALL 2012: Two More Chains’ document SHOULD work over here in this ‘WordPress’ forum software…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=045b53aa-cf20-443b-a13d-40c954db24e2&forceDialog=0
The link above seems to work…
From the article…
———————————————————————–
TWO MORE CHAINS – Fall 2012
Wheels, Wings, and Rotors
Getting There and Getting Back:
It’s Our Most Dangerous Activity – How Come?
By Paul Keller
Here’s what this article WON’T be about:
Driving guidelines and policies, operator qualifications, or aircraft safety rules and procedures. Policy manuals, your Fireline Handbook, and your IRPG already provide you with this type of information.
Here’s what this article WILL be about:
The realization that we need a deeper look into why we keep getting hurt and killed responding to, returning from, and while on incidents.
( snip )
On Page 4…
Fifteen minutes prior to the accident, a Water Tender driver passes the narrow (future) rollover site — where there is a slight inside curve in the road.
Two Kentucky 8 Crew firefighters are located on the inside/uphill side of the road near a trench and log.
As the Water Tender driver slowly passes, he makes sure to avoid these two firefighters. He later explains that, in his driver-side mirror, he notices that his outside rear dual tire is directly on the edge of the road. He also sees his dual wheel “throw a large rock or something off the road at the same point where E-11 [soon after] rolled off the road.”
Those next fifteen minutes tick by.
Engine 11 now — once again, eight hours into their 12 – hour night shift patrol — approaches this slight curve in the road where the two Kentucky 8 Crew members are STILL located.
The road here is ten feet wide. Engine 11 measures 7 feet 3/4 inches wide between its outside dual rear tires. The two Kentucky 8 Crew members say that Engine 11 was moving very slowly — on the outside of the road — past them.
Driver DePaolo-Johnny allows for a safe distance to pass by these two firefighters, located on the inside of the road.
Engine 11 is now positioned over on the—driver’s side—edge of the narrow road. Almost at a stop, as the engine slowly, cautiously, continues through the curve, the back driver’s-side tires begin to slide and fall off the road. Surviving crew members
Alex Glover and Ryan Smith say they both feel this weight shift happening. The two firefighters hear driver Heather DePaolo-Johnny exclaim: “Oh no!”
———————————————————————
Let me see if I have this right…
1. Two ‘Kentucky 8’ FFs are just ‘standing there’ on the inside part of of a VERY narrow ‘inside curve’ of the road.
2. A Water Tender comes by and, in order to avoid hitting the two idiots just standing there at that VERY narrow part of that dangerous road… that Water, itself, almost takes a 1,000 foot plunge.
3. Fifteen minutes later… the two morons are STILL just ‘standing there’… and instead of THEM moving ‘out of the way’ so that a vehicle could more safely traverse that narrow bend… E-11 driver Heather DePaolo-Johnny has to do the same thing the other Engine did just 15 minutes earlier and try to ‘hug the outside’ of the road just to keep from hitting these two morons.
But this time.. the rear wheels of E-11 slipped off the edge and they all tumbled for 1,000 feet. 3 dead.
So the ACTUAL cause of this accident really was the two “Kentucky 8” morons who didn’t have the sense to just get the fuck out of the way on that extremely narrow curve in the road?
Do I have that right?
WTKTT,
…And the piece shit road was recently graded. The lying bastards said the edge of the road was hard – bullshit! That entire pig path was a treacherous nightmare! No traffic control. Visibility sucked. None of the type vehicles that were in there should have been in there except for maybe the pickups.
So once again, was it the driver’s fault or was it the demands and expectations of the IMT & Overhead at fault with a fucked up plan? I’ll give you one guess what my answer is on this one,
Woodscrew
KENTUCKY 8 should have given it away.
Ya reckon maybe them morons from Kentucky 1 wuddah been a might smarter?
From the sound of it ( a 7 foot 3/4 inch wide wheelbase on just a 10 foot wide, recently graded piece of shit dirt track )… I would have made them ‘make out’ with the side of the truck and the side mirrors before getting near that ‘outside’ edge of that road… DAY or NIGHT.
I wish it had been ‘2 firefighters with ‘foot injuries’ instead of 3 DEAD.
You can have all the regulations and procedures in the world.
You can’t FIX “Stupid”.
RTS,
Hey, that was the exact same year your type 1 IHC was DEMOTED to type 2 status, right? Ouch. Do you want to talk about it?
Woodshark
Woodrow .Woodshark,
That is correct. And your point is?
Per the Hot Shot History in America on page 169, ‘it was a humbling experience.’
Per the Hot Shot History in America on page 169, the Payson HS regained their Type I HS status the following year, in 2003.
I would be willing to talk about it, however, not on this forum. It’s a Hot Shot thing.
RTS,
My point was an admitted shameless cheap shot in defense of your ripping of a type 2 crew, complete with hillbilly accent, for the actions of 2 members. The overhead plan was stupid…for those resources to be on that road doing what they were doing in the first place. You weren’t there. I was. You are under no obligation to tell me in this forum, or at all, how and why your crew was demoted to type 2 status at the behest of management in 2002.
When I noticed it happened to be the same year of Stanza, & you decided to kick 2 members of Kentucky 8 in the sack, I decided to kick you back for them. I’m sort of a sheep dog that way. I stand up for the little guy. We’re all on the same team, brother.
Which reminds me of a recent post I thought was interesting on the ‘They Said’ portion of wildland firefighter forum Hotlist. This post was in response to a hotshot who wanted answers why ‘3rd rate, 4th string’ contract crews were getting work instead of the ‘real’ firefighters – hotshots.
By poster Smokey307:
“There is a hotshot attitude. There always has been. I had one as a hot shot 50 years ago. That attitude should be directed to doing well the difficult and dangerous job you were hired and trained to do. Professional hotshot attitude is always quiet, it doesn’t need to be spoken, it is not condescending, it does not put down other types of crews because all are important, if anything it seeks to bring other crews up to their level rather than put them down. I don’t know if that attitude was in play on the Yarnell Fire but I know it was on the 1966 Loop Fire. The crew in question sort of lorded it over other crews including other hotshot crews. Sometimes that too high level of confidence blinds a crew to safety concerns. That did happen on a hotshot crew on the Loop Fire in 1966 and I lost 12 brother hotshots. I know this because I was on a hotshot crew where our Superintendent refused the same assignment. Professional hotshot attitude is humble and giving. Even if you were the hardest working crew person I had, I would consider letting you go. What you say is poison to a crew and the crew is much more important than any one individual. I hope you heed my counsel because it would be too bad to lose an otherwise good crewman”
The post is obviously from a really old-time hotshot of serious wisdom. I thought it was interesting that he mentioned Yarnell Hill.
Have a good day, brother!
Woodchip
Woody Woodchuck,
Thanks for the ‘They Said’ Smokey307 post, that was a really good one.
I will have you know that I am an Equal Opportunity Sack Kicker, when the opportunity presents itself. And that includes getting mine kicked when deserved.
Is it against the law to be offended?
Salman Rushdie said it well:
“The idea that any kind of free society can be constructed in which people will never be offended or insulted is absurd. So too is the notion that people should have the right to call on the law to defend them against being offended or insulted. A fundamental decision needs to be made: do we want to live in a free society or not? Democracy is not a tea party where people sit around making polite conversation. In democracies people get extremely upset with each other. They argue vehemently against each other’s positions. (But they don’t shoot.)”
You posted: “I stand up for the little guy. We’re all on the same team, brother. ”
Agreed. And I too stand up for the ‘little guy’ and give second and even their chances to those that just don’t quite get it right off the bat.
I I’m telling you, there is a special place for you in the Wildland Fire Service, so I am including a Task Book link for you.
http://www.nwcg.gov/publications/position-taskbooks/311-62
I took a National course in Albuquerque one year. There were over 50 of us in the class, with only 5 of us in fire, 3 in Operations and 2 in Finance, the others had never been on a fire.
It was by far the most frightening, stressful, yet informative course I have ever taken.
One of the main takeaways from the first day of class was, “The victim gets to decide what is right or wrong.” The Instructor could not answer my question of how can I teach my employees to know how to do that.
Her answer was always: “YOU know what is right and wrong” to which I would reply, ‘Yes, I know that but how do I teach my employees to know how to do that.
Myself and another walked out of class on the fourth day when we were told we were not allowed to “say or THINK or do” to/about certain classes of people.
I told the instructor that we can THINK anything we want, this was not George Orwell;s Thought Police.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Police
I put on a 30 minute training session at a Hot Shot workshop after this.
I did have a Task Book for several years when I was a Trainee in this position and actually performed the role a few times.
WTKTT,
Thank you for posting the LLC links. I tried about 10 times to do that.
It’s not you. There is definitely something funky going on when trying to ‘cut and paste’ links from that LLC website into this WordPress software.
The only thing that seems to work for me is…
If you want to cut/paste a link to a page at LLC that, in turn, just has all the links to all the documents regarding an ‘indicent’…. then you have to navigate to that page… and then go up the ADDRESS BAR in your browser and highlight that complete link… and then right-click that highlighted URL and ‘copy’ it to your clipboard.
Dittto for any of the PDF documents themselves.
It seems you must LOAD that document into your browser and then do the same thing. Go up to the ADDRESS BAR of your browser ( after the document has fully loaded )… and than highlight/right-click/Copy to clipboard THAT complete URL.
Copy and thanks
WTKTT,
I sent your solution to the Wildland Fire LLC and got this response, minus the images:
“I might be able to give you a hand, but to do what I’m gonna show you, you’ll need to login to the webpage.
Do you have a login?
If so…login. (If not, this won’t be helpful)
Once logged in, go to the incident page you want to get links to.
Look for this button: “Actions”
Then find “Permalink”
Copy and Paste THAT link to wherever you want to paste the link to.
If you’d like to get links that will download a particular doc, I can show you that as well.”
**
** CALFIRE CONTRACT BULLDOZER OPERATOR DIES IN SIBERANES FIRE
Article Title: Bulldozer operator dies fighting Siberanes Fire in Northern California
Published: July 27, 2016 at 11:19 PM
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2016/07/27/Bulldozer-operator-dies-fighting-Siberanes-Fire-in-Northern-California/2141469632807/
From the article…
———————————————————————————–
MONTEREY COUNTY, Calif., July 27 (UPI) — A bulldozer operator helping fight the Soberanes Fire north of Big Sur has died, Cal Fire reported Wednesday morning.
The bulldozer operator was an independent private contractor trained to work on fire lines alongside firefighters, Cal Fire said in the briefing.
The man was killed when his vehicle overturned during nighttime operations, Cal Fire said in its daily briefing. The massive fire was 10 percent contained Wednesday.
———————————————————————————–
Dozers working AT NIGHT???
WTF.
Dozer working at night. WTF?
Dozer work at night often. They’re required to have lights.
They were working in very steep terrain, hence the rollover.
I think the HEQB, supervising the dozer, will be the focus.
WTKTT,
Moreover, this was a CDF Fire (I still call them CDF) and these contractors will pretty much accept every assignment out of concerns that they will be blackballed and.or demobed if they refuse an assignment or suggest an option. So, they take every assignment.
On the 2013 Butler Fire on the Six Rivers NF in northern CA, there were TWO separate dozer incidents where CDF DIVS and DOZB allegedly intimidated these two operators into accepting their assignments in some very steep, rocky, heavily timbered areas.
Both dozer incidents resulted in the operators reluctantly accepting the assignments and both dozers sustaining damage that shut them down mechanically due to broken hydraulic lines and such AND required temporary roads to be built down to the disabled dozers to retrieve them.
One required helicopter bucket drops and a HS Crew building line to keep the fire from burning the dozer up. It took 3 days to finally get this damaged dozer out of danger.
This is the one where the DOZB/HEQB was requiring the dozer operator to follow her GPS line rather than the ridgetop alignment, which is normally the proper and safe way to do it.
From the AP:
Battalion Chief Robert Fish said the operator was working in steep and difficult-to-access terrain when the accident occurred. Fish did not have further details about the incident but said 60 bulldozers were being used in the fight against the fire.
Read more at http://www.wral.com/dark-smoke-hangs-over-scenic-stretch-of-california-coast/15881399/#PJQZY8Ch7GzqU5zH.99
Beware the Battalion Chiefs…
“Another operator escaped injury when a second bulldozer rolled over and sustained minor damage, according to the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.”
“60 bulldozers and 329 Engines” Classic southern CA CDF fire!
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
July 28, 2016 at 10:07 am
>> RTS…
>>
>> “Another operator escaped injury when a second
>> bulldozer rolled over and sustained minor damage,
>> according to the California Department of Forestry
>> and Fire Protection.”
The following news story CONFIRMS that… and goes on to say that the non-fatal dozer rollover on the SAME FIRE happened on Tuesday AFTERNOON… some hours BEFORE the ‘fatal’ one would then happen around 11:10 PM Tuesday NIGHT…
KTVU – FOX 2
Bulldozer operator killed while battling wildfire identified
Published: Jul 28 2016 02:57 PM PDT
http://www.ktvu.com/news/182867779-story
————————————————————–
Another bulldozer overturned Tuesday afternoon but the operator, who was hired through a private company, wasn’t injured, Cal Fire officials said.
————————————————————–
The article contains a picture of Mr. Robert Oliver Reagan III and his family. Beautiful wife. TWO beautiful daughters.
The article also also answers a question of my own regarding WHO will be investigating THIS workplace fatality.
Sure enough… it appears CalFire has already launched their own “Special Accident Investigation” which I assume will be using the older ‘SAIT’ protocol. No sign it’s going to use the newer “Coordinated Response Accident Protocol” ( CRAP ) approach that USFS has already adopted to REPLACE the SAIT protocol.
From the article…
————————————————————–
Cal Fire’s Serious Accident Investigation Team is looking into the circumstances surrounding Reagan’s death, according to agency officials.
————————————————————–
No sign of OSHA investigation starting ( yet ).
Muzzy,
It’s difficult to differentiate it all I’m sure, but CalFire (CDF – California Dept of Forestry) actually has full-time personnel they title as ‘battalion chief.’ So they are not city fire department battalion chiefs in the general sense such as were employed at Yarnell Hill. The use of this title by a state forestry agency is, however, an indication of the extreme hybridization in some places. I have said that CalFire is the originator of the hybrid model. CalFire is huge and I’ll just say that working with them can be ‘different.’
Woodruff
Woodrow,
I posted some replies for you but they may have gotten lost in the weeds, so here ya go.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343085
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343111
Woodsman!
Got it! Expand on “strange.”
I never saw them in the true wildland, but in the suburban LA and Bay Area, they dress like structure guys, and there are always a gaggle of engines and hoses everywhere, just like structure guys. In places I lived, it seemed that there were hydrants in the most unlikely places, and people expected them to save their homes. Of course, there wasn’t much in the way of beautiful old trees to save, mostly old eucalyptus from plantings after a long ago fire.
Maybe the titles get them more money. Politicians all know what a battalion chief is.
Oops, expand on “different”!
The disappointing CDF ‘Blue Sheet’ on Dozer Rollover Fatality:
SUMMARY
On July 26, 2016, at approximately 2310 hours, a
Call-When-Needed (CWN) dozer was operating on Division T of the Soberanes Incident in Monterey County, CA. Starting the shift, the dozer left the road way and rolled over. Fire line personnel immediately
responded in an attempt to assist and treat the operator
who unfortunately succumbed to his injuries at the scene
.
RECOMMENDATIONS FOR IMMEDIATE
CORRECTIVE ACTIONS
No recommendations for immediate corrective actions
were identified within the first 24 hours of this review.
“
RTS… disappointing indeed.
The following is a VIDEO taken at 10:00 AM yesterday on this SAME FIRE… and it shows another dozer operator doing the same damn thing.
First he’s ON a road,,, then he takes a LEFT and goes ‘off road’… apparently DOWN an embankment… but at an ANGLE. ( Not bright ).
** VIDEO SHOT FROM ‘INSIDE’ A
** DOZER WORKING THAT FIRE…
A VIDEO shot from INSIDE a dozer working the Soberanes fire published at 10:00 AM yesterday morning, not long before last night’s tragedy…
News channel KSBW
Video Title: View from inside a bulldozer fighting Soberanes Fire
Published 10:00 AM PDT Jul 27, 2016
http://www.ksbw.com/news/view-from-inside-a-bulldozer-fighting-soberanes-fire/40919526
VIDEO DESCRIPTION:
A bulldozer operator shot this video on the front lines of the Soberanes Fire. About 60 bulldozers are fighting the massive wildfire burning near Big Sur.
First part: Dozer and operator are ‘on road’… flames ahead… then he appears to take a LEFT turn and go ‘off road’… down an embankment?? Video stops.
At +1:00 minute mark: Some pretty steep hillsides. Flames all over.
Next Video ( on that page )…
Amazing timelapse video of the Soberanes Fire
CORRECTION for the post above.
I typed…
“A VIDEO shot from INSIDE a dozer working the Soberanes fire published at 10:00 AM yesterday morning, not long before last night’s tragedy…”
That is not correct.
The ‘rollover’ happened at around 11:10 PM ( 2310 ) on TUESDAY night… July 26, 2016.
That means the video above shot from inside ANOTHER dozer working the same fire was pusblished the FOLLOWING morning… around 10:00 AM Wednesday, July 27, 2016.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 28, 2016 at 7:51 am
>> RTS said…
>> Dozer work at night often. They’re required to have lights.
>> They were working in very steep terrain, hence the rollover.
Must have been pretty DAMN steep.
I’ve worked a lot of construction.
It’s pretty frickin’ HARD to ‘roll’ a dozer over.
Heavy puppies with very low center of gravity.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I think the HEQB, supervising the dozer, will be the focus.
As well he should be… including whoever was above HIM and giving him that ‘nighttime assignment’ and ‘goals’.
I’m sure the dozer drivers were just attempting to do what they were TOLD… in the DAMN DARK, no less.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Must have been pretty DAMN steep.”
That is MOST of the Angeles NF.
I am sure you have worked a lot of construction, but likely not in anything as steep as the ‘Bastard steep’ Angles NF.
And yes, indeed “It’s pretty frickin’ HARD to ‘roll’ a dozer over.”
It’s most likely going to be something to do with working sidehill and going up on a rock, upsetting the low center of gravity.
The operator, just like a pilot or HS Supt. has the right to say no with an option.
Like I posted elsewhere, many contractors are intimidated and will not do that, for fear of being blackballed and.or demobbed.
RTS,
Haha! Knee slapper! Do you mind if I tell my co-workers that it’s really hard to flip a dozer? They can use that information in the next mountain tractor class. Please don’t tell me you’re a dozer operator too. OK. I’m having fun with you here but I can assure you that in the right place, with the right substrate underneath your tracks, if you make a small mistake…….it’s freakin’ easy peasy to flop a dozer. Like, boom, there it goes!
I’ve never flipped one (knock on wood) but I have slid one down the slope sideways a couple times. Pucker, baby!!!! I’ve pulled operators out of them and winched em’ back over as well. Now, it’s thankfully not commonplace and it’s usually operator error but it’s not ‘hard’ to do at all. Oops!
Woodchuck
Woody Woodchuck,
And yes, indeed “It’s pretty frickin’ HARD to ‘roll’ a dozer over.”
It’s most likely going to be something to do with working sidehill and going up on a rock, upsetting the low center of gravity.
You posted: “I can assure you that in the right place, with the right substrate underneath your tracks, if you make a small mistake…….it’s freakin’ easy peasy to flop a dozer. Like, boom, there it goes!”
So then, didn’t we basically say the same thing?
I don’t know if we said the same thing or not….you said it’s hard, I said it’s easy. Is that the same thing?
Woodknot
Woodchuck,
NOT the same thing.
I did say it’s hard to roll one.
What I should have said was: It’s hard to roll one UNLESS and/or UNTIL you are in the right place, with the right substrate underneath your tracks, and you make a small mistake, THEN, it’s freakin’ easy peasy to flop a dozer. Like, boom, there it goes!
Better?
WTKTT,
Here is a link to some images of the fire:
http://m.ksbw.com/news/soberanes-fire-burns-more-than-27000-acres-containment-remains-at-10/40927686
Not the Angeles, but steep and heavily wooded.
Also talks about the contractor; 35 y.o. with two young daughters. Looking forward to see what the “investigation” says.
Reply to Muzzy post on July 28, 2016 at 2:50 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Here is a link to some images of the fire:
http://m.ksbw.com/news/soberanes-fire-burns-more-than-27000-acres-containment-remains-at-10/40927686
Thank you.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Not the Angeles, but steep and heavily wooded.
Yes. Some pretty steep ‘hillsides’ as well.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Also talks about the contractor; 35 y.o. with two young daughters.
Robert Oliver Reagan, of Friant, Calif.
Another “Nicest guy in the world… do anything for ya”.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Looking forward to see what the “investigation” says.
Article doesn’t say WHO is ‘investigating’.
I imagine… “Police” first… then ( of course ) “OSHA”… but what then?
What is CALFIRE ‘required’ to do when it’s just an ‘independent contractor’?
Full ‘SAIT’?…. or maybe one of these new CRAP ( Coordinated Response
Accident Protol ) things?
We shall see.
** VIDEO SHOT FROM ‘INSIDE’ A DOZER WORKING THAT FIRE…
A VIDEO shot from INSIDE a dozer working the Soberanes fire published
at 10:00 AM yesterday morning, not long before last night’s tragedy…
News channel KSBW
Video Title: View from inside a bulldozer fighting Soberanes Fire
Published 10:00 AM PDT Jul 27, 2016
http://www.ksbw.com/news/view-from-inside-a-bulldozer-fighting-soberanes-fire/40919526
VIDEO DESCRIPTION:
A bulldozer operator shot this video on the front lines of the Soberanes Fire. About 60 bulldozers are fighting the massive wildfire burning near Big Sur.
First part: Dozer and operator are ‘on road’… flames ahead… then he appears to take a LEFT turn and go ‘off road’.
At +1:00 minute mark: Some pretty steep hillsides. Flames all over.
Next Video ( on that page )…
Amazing timelapse video of the Soberanes Fire
CORRECTION for the post above.
I typed…
“A VIDEO shot from INSIDE a dozer working the Soberanes fire published at 10:00 AM yesterday morning, not long before last night’s tragedy…”
That is not correct.
The ‘rollover’ happened at around 11:10 PM ( 2310 ) on TUESDAY night… July 26, 2016.
That means the video above shot from inside ANOTHER dozer working the same fire was published AFTER the incident… the FOLLOWING morning… around 10:00 AM Wednesday, July 27, 2016.
RTS said, “I can almost say with certainty that there were some GMHS that were doing their level best to do the difficult, right thing and stop the madness that day, to stop what they all knew was a very risky, potentially deadly move, at the worst possible time, through unburned chutes and chimneys and into a deadly bowl.”
And I say, “So…would you like to tell why you can almost say with certainty that there were some GMHS that were doing their level best to do the difficult, right thing and stop the madness that day, to stop what they all knew was a very risky, potentially deadly move, at the worst possible time, through unburned chutes and chimneys and into a deadly bowl?.”
I mean…since we all know you are plugged into the WF Matrix.
Gary,
First, Scott Norris was a former Payson Hot Shot.
Second, Roxanne Warneke , widow of GMHS rookie Billy Warneke (a Marine Sniper Scout) said she believes her husband would only have abandoned a safe ridge and hiked into danger if he was directed to do so. “Orders,” she explained. “He was a Marine who was used to taking orders.”
Third, during the Family YH Fire Staff Ride, Roxanne Warneke, at Stand 5 (at the drop off point above the BSR), when I said the GMHS had no lookout, never informed AA or any supervisor of their intentions, etc. and that there was a lot of Grouthink going on that day said:
‘Yes, I know, but my husband Billy would have been the leader of the group telling the others not to leave their Safety Zone and go down there.’
And last, I want so much to believe that those young men were not a bunch of sheep that just blindly followed orders. The Rookies, yes, because they did not know any better and they were just doing what they were told.
It is too damn sad when Gary was denied a hike to the area. When the world’s best wild land fire fighters are denied then we know there was a royal fuck up, cover up and save the big boys from their terrible error that killed the 19. Fine ’em 559, 000 bucks and that is enough to settle the affair.
I once had a dog named wet back–well he truly was. I had gone to Chihuahua City and on the way down on I saw this brown and white spotted dog dumped on the desert some miles out of Chihuahua City–Three days later on my way back the dog was still there and no one had bothered to pick it up. No I never was a dope runner, I was there getting papers for my wife Angela Consuelo Johnson so she could remain in the US. Anyway that poor dog needed water and food badly, but in Mexico people do not pay much attention to abandoned dogs. So I picked this dog up and to get it into the states I gave it a couple shots of tequila and stuffed it under the seat of my pickup. The Border Patrol knows good people, and I knew them at Antelope Wells, Berrendo in Espanol so they did not bother to inspect–If they had, Cathy was sensible enough to allow me to take care of a poor critter abandoned and left to die.
Here is the sad part of life–after I got the fellow fed up and in good health, he killed about half a dozen of my chickens. So, out of what I was told would work, I tied a dead chicken around his neck and after a couple weeks of dragging that around, you would have thought Wet Back would have stopped killing chickens. You see those Chickens helped feed my family and it was very important that Wet Back stop his chicken killing habits. It did not work, and he wound up killing all 17 of my chickens–so I had to do what every rancher or farmer would have done–I shot Wet Back. I later regretted that but damn it what option did I have.
I guess I thought of this since Brownie had Joy’s mallard by the neck today and had I not intervened. Well if Brownie kills that mallard he won’t be shot, but we will have mallard stew. Brownie is a pup and after a scolding he is OK to leave the ducks alone. The golden retriever lab we rescued out of the Prescott Shelter listens so well she leaves my chickens and ducks alone even if they climb all over her. But these days I am down to only two chickens–still enough to give us country eggs, Coyotes have taken about six others here right before Joy’s eyes. Hungry critters, but I fenced them out lately.
What has this to do with fire fighting Joy asks. A bunch I say. Do the right thing even if it offends yourself or others. Donut did not, has not. Steed and Marsh did not and can not. And how about those that ordered Marsh down into a bad situation? Maybe they regret their worry over vacant structures–like I regretted my worry over my chickens.
Sorry about your dog but you did what you had to do. He would have been named Mojado in Santa Fe. Or Tonk in Arizona.
Gary there is something to be said about a simple mountain man. They don’t have all the accouterments BS to deal with, and can see with no problem what apparently the cookie cutter generation has not clue. Looking down at where the heroed up GMHS crew bosses were so called trained about, I already knew it was a death trap. In fact I even had to argue with Joy on that count of what she wanted to do was a death knell–yet those men took the dive. Do you become a hero attempting to defend empty stuctures while risking the crew’s lives? I think not, but I did come back and take Joy out of that situation.
Am I a hero–fuck no, I figured that hard head would likely die if I did not go back. She would have hung around and dropped down with the GMHS. And then it was a chore getting her out–then I learned my own estimations were wrong–we barely made it by about 11 minutes.
Since I remember the burn out at the Shrine–that did cut our escape by much–maybe even the GMHS. But everyone says Joy and Sonny did not see that video–BS, we did more than once but it is not gone.
There is one hero on this web site[- Gary Olson== When a man is not afraid to tell the truth despite all those that do not want it out, that man has moved a mountain.
Well I could add many others, heroes who are not backing down from sensitivities BS to keep them quiet. All kinds of methods used to protect the liars but life has a way of floating the truth to the surface.
Thanks Charlie, but I am no hero. I am not risking anything nor do I have any skin in the game. No matter how much I disagree with Mr. Second, he is far more of a hero than I am.
I mean…he is actually risking a really good retirement gig that I really wish I had, he gets to remain relevant (which is the biggest down side of retirement) stay connected and make a few bucks on the side.
He doesn’t “need” the money…but who can’t use a few extra bucks for their time? Plus…they don’t really EXPECT him to do that much, he can put into the job as much or as little as he wants to. In fact…my belief is they don’t really WANT him to put that much into it and if he does, they may stop using him.
It;s just that I was STUNNED when I read his post I re-posted above, it sounded to me like he knows for “near certainty” that there were some of the GMIHC who fought against bailing off that ridge.
I didn’t really expect an answer to my question because I thought he was telling us what “rumor control” from within the WF community, which is often right, that the “word on the street” is that is exactly what happened. That there were some of the crew who fought against doing everything wrong that day. The prisons are full of people who have been put there by less evidence than that coming from such an esteemed expert (love him or hate him) in his field.
And by the way, “I can almost say with certainty that there were some GMHS that were doing their level best to do the difficult, right thing and stop the madness that day, to stop what they all knew was a very risky, potentially deadly move, at the worst possible time, through unburned chutes and chimneys and into a deadly bowl.” sure sounds to me like there is WAY more to it than Mr. Second replied to above.
Which is OK with me because I am still trying to come to terms with the original statement itself because if there is ANY truth to it, this situation is actually much worse than we have thought it is for the past three years. OMG!
In other words, “almost say with certainty”, goes beyond (in my opinion) “beyond a reasonable doubt”, which is the standard by which people are convicted of crimes in this country. Unless Mr. Second would like to clarify his original statement given this level of scrutiny and analysis of it.
Gary,
That’s all I’m at liberty to say coming from the HS and WFF ‘Networks.’
Thanks for the kind words,except I do not consider myself as either a hero or an expert.
Well…the jury may still out on the hero title, but the title of expert was entered into the official record a long time ago.
In order for me to be even considered as a “knowledgeable person” you MUST be at least an “expert” if not a “Senior Expert who graduated Summa Cum Laude from the WF University of Hard Knocks.” So,,,
Gary,
I am most definitely graduated Summa Cum Laude from the WF University of Hard Knocks.
I was pretty sure I read that about you somewhere.
Well the video can not be found.
So when my daughter Melissa was born, I saw the most beautiful thing–she still is. I was mining at the time.
You never want to go before those kids, you love them too much.
Ted belong to the 140 IQ group–straight A’s in Chemical Engineering. The three times he ran for class President, he was. One of those special people like Clinton or Reagan. Do you understand why these GMHS have been shorted by not only Donut but by a shoddy investigation? Our kids are not to be forgotten–why should they be needlessly sacrificed?
But what of future wild land fire fihters? Does Amanda represent the truth? I do not think so. But the world will judge.
What I meant to say is you never want your child to die before you do. I am so amazed that we still do not have the truth about the deaths: yet many of us on JD site know it was an orchestrated and unnecessary event. Those that were in charge of the Yarnell fire are suspects in a negeligent death of 17 deaths of men that have been killed for no other reason than negligent actions
I will stand up to anybody, McCrady, Amanda, Holly: who I hiked with Joy to the site, and others that think it was only an accident or God’s fuck up..
Charlie,
You posted: “I will stand up to anybody, …. and others that think it was only an accident or God’s fuck up.”
No such thing as God’s f**k up. More like God’s Will. Everything happens because God allows it..
Deep breath. In other words, Gods will is for him to sit back and let happen whatever we choose to do?
So no actual interaction from God there then? He’s just sat back watching it all happen like a fecking TV show?
I don’t buy that God had another plan for those men! I don’t buy it that it was His will! I just don’t buy His involvement!
God had nothing to do with this, other than picking up the pieces and consoling those that were left behind!
I’m not a great believer, nor am I an athiest or agnostic, and I’m certainly not defending God, but leave him out of it.
One thing that including God in this mess does is give those that killed the GMHS and then covered it up, a free pass, “It was all Gods plan” – give me fecking break!
Otis,
You posted: “I don’t buy that God had another plan for those men! I don’t buy it that it was His will! I just don’t buy His involvement!
God had nothing to do with this, other than picking up the pieces and consoling those that were left behind!”
You and I and others are certainly are entitled to maintain our own World Views, albeit polar opposite.
You also posted: “One thing that including God in this mess does is give those that killed the GMHS and then covered it up, a free pass, “It was all Gods plan” – give me fecking break!”
God allows us FREE CHOICE. The GMHS had the free choice that day to remain in the perfectly good Safety Zone in ‘the black.’
Instead, they made the free choice decision to go against everything they knew or should have known as qualified and mostly experienced Type I WFF’s
I know what I believe and will continue to express my world views, as those who oppose them do, EVERY TIME.
Otis,
This is a link for the Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute
(wfgi.org)
The Mission of the Wildland Firefighter safety is of the utmost importance to our organization. We will champion firefighter safety through independent investigations, education, and real life support for firefighters, families, and the fire community. Truth-Transparency-Accountability- Change, the future for wildland firefighter safety is now.”
http://wfgi.org/
“From this great loss of life three women, Juliann Ashcraft, Deborah Pfingston, and Roxanne Warneke worked together to form the Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute. Juliann lost her husband, Andrew Ashcraft, Deborah Pfingston lost her son, Andrew Ashcraft, and Roxanne Warneke lost her husband, William “Billy” Warneke in the Yarnell Hill Fire. Through their grief the three women dedicated themselves into learning about Wildland Firefighting, delved into discovering what truly happened to the Granite Mountain Hotshots that led to their deaths, and committed themselves to protecting the safety of Wildland Firefighters so that another preventable tragedy like the Yarnell Hill Fire does not occur again.”
Roxanne Warneke, widow of GMHS Marine Sniper Scout Billy Warneke, and Founding Member of WFGI.org, had this to say about God’s Will:
“Our daughter, Billie Grace, was born in December of 2013. Unfortunately, as fate would have it, MY HUSBAND [BILLY] WAS CALLED TO GREATER THINGS BY OUR CREATOR five months before father and daughter had a chance to meet each other.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
RTS,
I foresaw the connection between the “plan” and some good coming of it when I wrote what I did..
I totally respect you, your experience and your views, and especially those of the families, but bringing God into it… just sometimes it grates and feels like a get out of jail free card for those “humans” that actually made the decisions with the fatal results..
Otis,
Pretty much the only time I “bring God into it” is when someone else does it first
Yes, some use the ‘God’s Will’ thing as a get out of jail free card, including things like lying, having an affair, stealing something and getting away with it, or whatever, therefore, it was ‘God’s Will’ is their rationale.
God does not condone those things He does not approve of, so those that use the ‘God’s Will’ thing for their bad decisions and actions will have to answer to Him later.
For those “humans” that actually made the decisions with the fatal results?
God allows us free will to make choices – good or bad.
And those choices/decisions were formed before we were born according to The Bible.
God allows us to choose how we obey the call to ‘partner’ with His Son, Jesus, and become more like Him. And for me this is proof of his great love. He promises to direct our steps, but not to dictate them. He doesn’t say we’ll always understand, but he promises we won’t be abandoned.
The prophet Jeremiah’s assurance of “a hope and a future” is not a guarantee of a good career or a good marriage or good health; it’s the promise of a real relationship with a faithful, mysterious Father.
Well, it is missing–but what we saw is now in someone’s files. The burn out did happen just above the Shrine– both Joy and I witnessed the video even to going to the short rock wall to know it was where we had before hiked. So, Sonny, on his so called death bed, does not have to lie. I do believe with the wind change like it was, we ourselves, did not escape with only about 11 minutes to spare–except for that very burn out. That burn out was too close to the Helms and too close to where my wagon was stationed on Foothills Drive. You see Sonny, Tex Gilligan has had four heart attacks withing the last few months. November is my predicted Doctoral expiration date. Now why would I lie about what I saw and know?
Well wait a minute, the doctors said I do have 24% of my Irish fucking heart left–If I think about it 25% of 73 is about `17 so do not count me out for another 17 years.
There is a lot to be said for a simple mountain man. I come from a long line of mountain men. In fact…I am only one generation out of the mountains and I probably still should be in them.
Reply to Gary Olson post on July 28, 2016 at 7:02 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> There is a lot to be said for a simple mountain man.
>> I come from a long line of mountain men. In fact…I am only
>> one generation out of the mountains and I probably still
>> should be in them.
Could be why you were attracted to Wildland Firefighting in the first place.
Some part of your DNA is always craving “The High Lonesome”.
Yes it was. I grew up visiting my grandmothers house (whose part time USFS WF and logging road construction husband had died from getting to close to bad dynamite) in Alpine, Arizona, where there was always a large photo that was taken from their porch of the gigantic pyro-cumulus cloud from the legendary Escudilla Fire of (way back when 1940 or 1950, I will have to research it) and a lamp that had a shade that spun around with cut outs of a forest scene with deer and other animals fleeing from a raging forest fire. Us kids would sit and watch it spin in the dimly lit room family room (no TV back then, at least up there) while the adults talked.
I have never heard the term “The High Lonesome”, I will have to research that as well.
Most of my uncle’s fought that fire.
Reply to Gary Olson post on July 28, 2016 at 2:04 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I have never heard the term “The High Lonesome”
Comes right out of the mouth of actor Henry Fonda at the end of one his many westerns.
I can’t remember the name of it.
He and the other ‘feller’ he had been kicking ass with ‘in town’ for the entire movie are ‘riding off’ at the end and the other ‘feller’ ( it was either James Stewart or Glenn Ford ) asks him…
“You comin’ with me?”
Fonda does one of his long pauses… looks off to the mountains… and says…
( Totally ‘paraphrasing’ here… but it’s close… and you have to say this in your head with Fonda’s famous cowboy ‘twang’ for the full effect )…
“Nope. Been thinkin’ alot of the high lonesome. Think I’ll go back up there. Had enough of people tellin’ me what I oughta believe ‘jus cus somebody else told ’em that’s what THEY oughta believe… or what I oughta be doin’ ‘jus cus somebody else told ’em that’s what THEY oughta be doin’. Had ’bout enuff of that for the rest of my natural born days.”
Very cool story line. Thanks. That movie did not come up when I researched the phrase.
Where is this video? Who has access to it?
This is a 353-page structural fatality fire Investigation Report of Cincinnati FF Daryl Gordon that just came out a day or so ago. It takes a LONG time to download, if you are interested.
http://cincinnati-oh.gov/cityofcincinnati/assets/File/FAO%20Gordon%20LODD%20Report%20FINAL%205-14-16(1).pdf
Talk about f**k ups, this report is loaded with them. And many very similar to WF fatalities, with communications being a major factor.
The smoke was so bad,, nobody could see more than a few feet and the unfortunate FAO Gordon fell down a f**king OPEN elevator shaft. WTF?
“Both reports conclude that Gordon died on March 26 because he walked through a malfunctioning elevator door that should have been locked. But the reports also highlight mistakes and oversights by CFD personnel.
“Things start going wrong. It’s how you stop that snowball effect, where things keep going wrong, that prevents bad things from happening,” Gregory Potter, CFD’s district chief for training told The Enquirer. “At this fire, little things just kept mounting up.”
“Firefighters failed to quickly contain the fire; it grew and filled the five-story Madisonville apartment building with smoke. The smoke reduced visibility for rescuers, including Gordon, as they searched the building.
“On an order from a superior, firefighters broke the glass patio door of the apartment where the fire started, letting in air which in turn fed the fire, both reports state.
“The fire growth could have been delayed if the patio door had remained intact as the fire would have reached a ventilation limited state,” the NIOSH report stated.
“Neither report explains why the patio door was knocked out. But Potter said firefighters on the scene were following an old theory that recommends breaking out the windows to vent gasses from the building before firefighters enter to fight the fire.
“Early-arriving firefighters caught a hose on a stairwell, which limited its reach. They didn’t spray down a smoke-filled hallway to cool it and limit the fire’s growth — again, a move not in line with updated firefighting practices, Potter said.
“They then retreated from the building after a second also-short hose bucked, knocking off a firefighter’s helmet in the increasingly hot, smoky hallway.
“What happened here was they took it out but they weren’t ready to put water on the fire so the fire got bigger and hotter faster,” Potter said. “In theory, what you want to do is coordinate those things.”
More than 20 minutes after arriving at the apartment building, firefighters had yet to spray a drop of water inside the building, according to the CFD report.
“This delay in getting water onto the fire contributed to the smoke conditions on all floors of the five-story apartment building,” the NIOSH report concluded.
“When Gordon opened a door to the elevator shaft and fell, visibility was down to 5 feet or less, the report stated.
“The fire started when an apartment resident fell asleep with food on the stove in an apartment with no working smoke detector. The building has no sprinkler system.
“Gordon was the first on-duty fatality for CFD since firefighter Oscar Armstrong III died fighting a fire in March 2003. Gordon was married, with two children.
“Both the CFD and NIOSH highlighted a raft of communication problems and other coordination and training issues that demanded improvement. In their investigation report released earlier this month, CFD officials pledged to rectify 44 problems they had identified.
“It’s hard for the guys. We’re critical on ourselves to a fault” with the goal of getting better, Potter said.
“As is standard practice among fire departments, the NIOSH report will be circulated so other departments can learn from it.
“Matt Alter, president of the Cincinnati Firefighters Union Local 48, said the firefighters will take the two reports and learn the most they can from them. But he noted the department faced staffing brownouts in recent years and has a small training staff, factors that led to a “fallout effect” of lagged training for both veterans and recruits alike.
“Here at Local 48, we look at that and say we have to do whatever we can in our power to make sure the tragic events of March 26, 2015, are never repeated,” he said. “If that means having enough people on the truck to make sure that we can keep citizens as safe as possible, and the firefighters as safe as possible, then that’s what has to be done.”
The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), released its firefighter fatality investigation into the death of Daryl Gordon Tuesday.
The 54-page document is the second investigation done on the incident. Last month the City of Cincinnati published the findings of its yearlong investigation.
NIOSH is a division of the CDC responsible for conducting research and making recommendations for the prevention of work-related injury and illness. According to the report, NIOSH investigators were in Cincinnati to investigate the incident on four separate occasions between April and June of 2015.
The report breaks down possible contributing factors to the incident and lists key recommendations to ensure a similar incident doesn’t happen again.
According to the report, the contributing factors to Gordon’s death include:
Breakdown in crew integrity
Unsecured and unguarded elevator door
Poor visibility due to moderate smoke conditions
Delay in getting water onto the fire burning in a second-floor apartment
Acting officers in several key positions
No standpipe or sprinkler system within the residential apartment building.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/pdfs/face201506.pdf
From the report: “But he noted the department faced staffing brownouts in recent years and has a small training staff, factors that led to a “fallout effect” of lagged training for both veterans and recruits alike.”
Sounds familiar. We all have to recommit to keeping our civic organizations healthy. I’m all for ending golden parachutes for fire chiefs, or double dipping, or lavish travel, etc., but training and personnel development should be non-negotiable. We are not Somalia.
Robert,
I would never suggest that you would be the type of safety officer who would hang out in fire camp with the other slugs sippin’ on hot coffee bullshittin’ with your buddies in clean fire shirts and huggin’ the salamanders and reading the same ole safety briefings over and over again, “Be sure and observe the 10, 18, LCES. watch out for rolling rocks on steep slopes, burned snags and other hazard trees coming down, your tool spacing, red flag days, snakes, spiders, poison ivy, and drink plenty of water especially if it’s going to be hot today and listen to the weather report etc., but thank you for acknowledging that in general the position of safety officer is a check mark for fire teams and a CYA for management and NEVER in my 10 years on the fire line as a hotshot did I ever see or even hear about a legitimate need for a safety officer…they are about as useful as tits on a boar hog and as far as line going personnel…the biggest joke there is because the only thing they do out there is use up oxygen fire fighters could otherwise be using.
I do think you are unique because of your experience, energy and commitment to wildland firefighter safety but I do think you are unique….otherwise the position of safety officer is used for those who used to work but don’t any more or those who never liked or wanted to work in the first place, but they like the extra money and getting away from their day jobs once in a while.
And if anybody thinks I have an anger management problem they are right. In addition to the facts that I am now completely off the reservation after spending lifetime of living on one and have no intention of ever going back because I spend 35 years caring what everybody thought about everything and now I don’t care what anybody thinks about anything, plus I was part of the solution for those same 35 years and now I chose to be part of the problem. Add that to the fact that I have a very healthy and growing non-malignant brain tumor in addition to tangles of blood vessels in my brain growing haywire, several blood clots from various head injuries I have received over the years and now a terminal illness from breathing nasty stuff that only affects smokers (I have never had a cigarette in my life) or those who live in third world countries who cook with wood smoke in closed environments puts me in a great position to tell people exactly what I think about the Yarnell Hill Fire and related topics on this blog because I still can’t believe we lost 19 hotshots who bailed off a ridge down into a steep chaparral choked box canyon directly into the path of a firestorm of Biblical proportions and I continue to be infuriated by your defense of supervisors and management on the Yarnell Hill Fire and beyond and in Andy Palmer I saw myself as a young man except I had better training and supervisors since my actions captured by a photograph on the Prescott National Forest was an anomaly and all on me because it was my first and ONLY fire on the Prescott…NPS firefighters who are tied to a local administrative area aren’t the only ones who don’t get to see very much fire.
However…if you and I can agree that Andy Palmer was COMPLETELY blameless in any and all casual or contributing factors in his own tragic death…I owe you an apology for my rant yesterday and this apology will stand until the next time you defend fire supervisors or managers as being blameless in the deaths of the wildland firefighters under their supervision and then I will probably go ballistic again…if I have the energy that particular day since I was feeling pretty frisky yesterday.
Oh…and one more thing. If you can think of a better analogy than adults giving a young person SOME very limited and recent training with a firearm without any real world experience and then turning them loose with that deadly tool to use in a chaotic environment with little or no supervision from a responsible adult, I will be happy to accept it but that is all that came to my mind.
And I am sure you are aware of the fact that the brains of young people aren’t even fully developed until their mid 20’s makes it imperative that adults who are responsible for the lives of these young people on these deadly wildfires (and all wildfires as assumed to be deadly until proven otherwise…like everyone has safely gone home because there is NO acceptable loss of life on a wildfire barring a true unforeseen or unavoidable and therefore preventable anomaly or accident) because unlike a military battle…everyone is expected to go home safe and sound (more or less) from working on a wildfire.
OK…just one more thing because you are indeed among my closest friends and confidants. I do NOT have an anger management problem, nor am I a dick because of my personal situation because I truly feel blessed, I have always had an anger management problem and I have always been a dick.
I have now been retired for 10 glorious years and I am having more fun now than I have ever had before in my life (except for when I was a hotshot). The only thing I have to decide today is whether I want to take a nap later on this afternoon, go ride ATV’s or go for a Jeep ride in the sun because I took the top and doors off of ONE of my Jeeps yesterday..and it looks bitchin’ and ready to rock and roll (So to speak because I am NOT that guy anymore…safety first!) .
I just pray to the Great Creator that all of YOU PEOPLE have what I have (more or less), or will have what I have some day after you have finished your race. May the Great Creator bless you and keep you safe.
That is all…please carry on.
My first and only fire on the Prescott? It was just that one tree and it was just one little smoke in that tree. And just me and one other jerk off was there.
Oh…the other jerk off who was there? I am pretty sure it was my buddy Tom Tobin who became the Prescott Hotshot Crew Boss several years later and the forest dispatcher for the Prescott several years after that…so there is a moral to the story somewhere in there, but I shudder to think of what it might be.
Gary,
Thanks for the clarifications and explanations and sharing.
The Wonky Woodmaster set me straight on my post about the “NPS WFF’s” which certainly would have included Andy Palmer. That was a preventable oversight on my part.
Andy Palmer was the quintessential victim of blatant supervisory incompetence on the fire he was killed on. There would be others a month later during the H-44 Helicopter Crash disaster.
Until 2013. And then the GMHS became the quintessential victims of blatant supervisory incompetence.
So, yes, you and I agree that Andy Palmer was COMPLETELY blameless in any and all casual or contributing factors in his own tragic death.
I accept your apology and I await your next rant, whenever the f**k that will be.
I am NOT an apologist for management per se. I just try and give them the benefit of the doubt, be a bit more empathetic, and wonder what they were thinking and why it made sends to them at the time. It’s what the alleged ‘Investigators’ call ‘Sense Making.’
You posted: “NEVER in my 10 years on the fire line as a hotshot did I ever see or even hear about a legitimate need for a safety officer…they are about as useful as tits on a boar hog and as far as line going personnel…the biggest joke there is because the only thing they do out there is use up oxygen fire fighters could otherwise be using.”
That’s your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. I used to think that way and we even had codes for telling guys on the radio that a Safety Officer or Overhead was coming our way.
I’m a very PROACTIVE Safety Officer with a very strong operational background and I put the responsibility for their safety back on them and their supervisor(s). I tell them to be safe because it is the right thing to do and NOT because a Safety Officer is there.
As I said Bob, and may I call you Bob by the way? I have no doubt you are a different kind of Safety Officer because of your background in addition to your obvious work ethic. And counting you…that would be ONE Safety Officer I have ever known or known of, or heard about that was NOT a waste of oxygen that firefighters could otherwise be breathing.
I also want to take back my, “as useful as tits on a boar hog” analogy. That is totally unfair to any boar hogs out there that may have tits and want to suckle their young rather than eat them.
I will also weigh in regarding what Muzzy is saying. Given the status and reputation Safety Officers have on fire teams Muzzy, the only thing anybody ever expects from them is to read the “canned” safety message at shift briefings and MAYBE walk the line or a portion thereof once in a great while depending on how big the fire is and how bored they are sitting on their asses in fire camp to annoy any low level firefighters they stumble upon who did NOT get the signal they were meandering down the fire line.
FUCKING with anybody who has any push on a fire is NEVER on their agenda because they want the Oats and extra fire money instead of being being sent home and replaced by somebody who plays ball with management.
The only other reason they are there is just in case something goes wrong they can fill out the reports and management can point to them and say, “It’s NOT our fault, we did everything we could possibly do to avoid this tragedy, we had X number of safety officers on the fire.”
Yup, CYA. And it looks like the SAIR and CRP process will just back them right up.
And of course I think everyone who is participating here is very well aware that my perspective of the fire line…ceased to evolve in 1984, so the role and relative value of safety officers very well may have changed.
Although except for the explosion of WUI issues and the hostile takeover of our house by the Round Hats (Copyrighted C, 2016, by G. Olson, All Rights Reserved, inspired by structural firefighters funny looking dress hats that resemble those worn by the French Foreign Legion although somehow it works for Legionnaires), …AKA the Blue Shirts. most things look to me like they haven’t changed very much, but I will leave that for others to judge.
In addition to that possibility, my view on the role and relative value of safety officers was, and continues to be from the perspective of the equivalent of a Marine (if there is any comparison to the military) infantry officer and as such, I am clearly predisposed to think very little of anyone who is not also in the infantry, AKA grunts or ground-pounders. I think Bob reaffirmed this view when he admitted that he shared that perspective at one time before he was a safety officer…when he was a grunt himself.
So…as always take my opinions for what they are worth…and they are probably worth just about what you paid for them.
Gary said, “NEVER in my 10 years on the fire line as a hotshot did I ever see or even hear about a legitimate need for a safety officer.”
I don’t know how much influence a SO has other than warnings. I assume they should have oversight over emergent issues as they arise after the briefings, including watching other personnel as they play fast and loose.
I read the interview notes from the FBAN who was on the YHF. [He started the interview by saying that he got started at FBAN school because he liked the idea of being paid to sit on a rock and watch the fire. He proceeded to talk about how he spent his day taking pictures of the fire, which probably made him feel one more step removed from what he was supposed to be doing. I can’t believe he felt free to be such an a**hole on an investigation of a fatal fire where fire behavior was a major factor, but I digress.]
It seems to me that if a safety officer had kicked the FBAN’s butt back to what he was supposed to be doing, the fire hehavior Cordes and Donut and everyone else saw might have been more expected. If half the FBANs and half the safety officers are jerks, then, on average, only 1/4 of the fires will have only jerks looking at safety issues. Redundancy.
Muzzy,
I would add, with slight modification, to Gary’s post: “RARELY in my 10 years on the fire line as a Hot Shot did I ever see or even hear about a legitimate need for a FBAN.’
They spout our Basic S-190 Fire Behavior, for the most part. ‘It’s going to get hotter and drier and the fuels are going to dry out and the fire behavior is going to increase and Blah Blah Blah.
I often think about what I could/would have done – if I was in Division A on 30 June 2013 – and how/what I would/could have done to stop the GMHS from killing themselves.
You would have to have been right there with them at the Lunch Spot and/or monitoring their Crew Net frequency to know their intentions.
It may very well have entailed up to and including fisticuffs.
We always say “Tell me something I don’t know.”
CORRECTION:
The above post should have read:
“They spout our Basic S-190 Fire Behavior, for the most part. ‘It’s going to get hotter and drier and the fuels are going to dry out and the fire behavior is going to increase and Blah Blah Blah.
We always say “Tell me something I don’t know.”
Ok, but who has the role of updating the behavior predictions when the weather changes? Especially on complex fires, where each is making their own private weather, or on complex topology?
If all these guys are so damn useless, are SO and FBAN just retirement programs for tired hotshots?
Muzzy,
1. I think I love you.
2. I hope you’re not a dude (not that there’s anything wrong with that – I’d just have to shift it to Bromance)
3. We would be lucky to have FBAN’s & SO’s that are retired hotshots, at least they would have good experience on the line.
4. It’s good to know that regular folks & not just us wanderlust laden adventurers care about wildland firefighting & firefighters.
5. It’s been several hours since I have thought about “the unmentionables” & I haven’t said the word once…not even at work…I don’t think? I’ll check with my boss tomorrow to see if I said it.
Woodyard
Woodsman said, “1. I think I love you.”
Hmm, I bet you say that to all the wh…uh…ladies! Besides, what would Cheerleader say?
“2. I hope you’re not a dude (not that there’s anything wrong with that – I’d just have to shift it to Bromance)”
Not a bro…
“3. We would be lucky to have FBAN’s & SO’s that are retired hotshots, at least they would have good experience on the line.”
Yes, it occurs to me that the system in WLFFing has a lot of positions that don’t depend on experience with fire. I used to think that IHCs (and other type 1 FFs) were mostly an apprentice program for all the other jobs, fire related or not, anywhere in the USFS or NPS. Now I see, not so much.
I can’t imagine hiring a general contractor who never swung a hammer, or a doctor who never interned. The reason interns had such long shifts, other than that they are cheap labor, is so they learn how patients change over the diurnal cycle. If you don’t observe fire up close and personal, over several burn cycles, and under multiple weather regimes, how can you be an FBAN, or ever feel confident? That is stuff you can’t learn from a book or o YouTube video.
go woodsman!
Muzzy,
You are correct, the FBAN is responsible for the role of updating the behavior predictions when the weather changes, especially on complex fires, And most times they do. Other times it;s: ‘Tell me something I don;t already know’ briefings.
On the June 2012 Waldo Canyon Fire (CO), a very skookum FBAN gave their briefing and which began with the Type 1 team’s 6 a.m. briefing at the Incident Command Post (ICP) abd told evertone that the day’s conditions would be exactly the same as the day the Hayman fire blew up. This was communicated to the crews for heightened awareness of the expected fire behavior.”
And his prediction was extremely accurate based on the similar fire weather for those days.
Now THAT was a good FBAN and a good FBAN briefing.
Wow, how different YHF might have been in f there had BEEN a 6 am briefing, and if anyone was at the meeting, or if there had been a map, or an FBAN who gave a crap.
Muzzy,
You posted: “.. the fire hehavior Cordes and Donut and everyone else saw might have been more expected. …”
The GMHS and Cordes were homeboys, this was their turf. They had experienced aggressive to radical fire behavior over a week before on the Doce Fire and had witnessed and experienced aggressive to radical fire behavior progressively throughout the day on the YH Fire.
I seriously doubt that they would have listened to an FBAN about the fire behavior.
RTS said, “The GMHS and Cordes were homeboys, this was their turf. They had experienced aggressive to radical fire behavior over a week before on the Doce Fire and had witnessed and experienced aggressive to radical fire behavior progressively throughout the day on the YH Fire.”
Maybe, but Cordes was way off in his estimates of how much time he had to evacuate Yarnell, but BR knew exactly. And two GMHSs had a very close call on Doce and hadn’t learned a thing. If some of those guys overheard a report from the FBAN and then an arguement with Marsh, they might have broken ranks earlier and stayed in the black or taken a dive over to the Congress side. Maybe they would gave had to keep walking, but they might have survived. If not, why are they there?
Muzzy,
You posted: “If some of those guys overheard a report from the FBAN and then an arguement with Marsh, they might have broken ranks earlier and stayed in the black or taken a dive over to the Congress side. Maybe they would gave had to keep walking, but they might have survived. If not, why are they there?”
I allege that the hazardous attitudes of Groupthink and The Abilene Paradox were constant companions with many on the GMHS.
I also allege that the parallel attitudes of ‘Go along to get along’ and ‘Don’t rock the boat’ were also involved.
I can almost say with certainty that there were some GMHS that were doing their level best to do the difficult, right thing and stop the madness that day, to stop what they all knew was a very risky, potentially deadly move, at the worst possible time, through unburned chutes and chimneys and into a deadly bowl.
http://www.tbo.com/ap/hotshots-killed-in-arizona-fire-remembered-mourned-20130702/
one of my favorite investigative photos in this all- comes from above link.
what time was the photo appx?
No ‘approximate’ needed.
That ‘Tom Story’ photo was taken at 5:11 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
When he took the photo, looking WEST from the rear of the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot, Tom Story was standing on that stairway that used to lead up to that mobile home that used to be there at the rear of the parking lot.
The ‘deployment’ had already taken place some 28 minutes earlier… at 4:43 PM.
The photo was taken 5 minutes BEFORE DPS Helicopter ‘Ranger 58’ would even ‘lift off’ ( at 5:16 PM ) to begin looking for the ‘missing’ Granite Mountain Hotshots.
that Tom Story photo alone says alot to me—due to the corrupt system I rather explain in person but I do not know WHY it was NOT used in the SAIR and ADOSH report as an accompanying photo for that day and final hours. How come my start of the day pics made it as a general hiker/housewife on the Weavers but this photo slipped the investigative documentation of the final moments of these men/vehicles. Do you think everyone in that photo was ever properly investigated/interviewed. I know too much behind the scenes on this photo that I wish I could just say it…thank you VS/BS/PM- if it was not for them and “listening” to their account I would of not known where to go with a photo like this except it was a late day photo—this photo began my foia journey…
thank you wwtktt
The timestamps embedded in all of the Tom Story photos taken at the RHR have pretty much been proven to be accurate, including the one where he photographed Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown driving OUT of the RHR parking lot and beginning their ‘ground rescue mission’ with that initial trip down Lakewood and into Glen Ilah.
If you match the Blue Ridge GPS satellite data timestamps to those photos… it indicates that the timestamp on Tom Story’s camera was, at most, only about 60 seconds OFF the actual REAL TIME ( satellite time ).
what season do you think this photo was:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3e/08/7d/3e087d280b5602f8518f3e1ea2edfaa0.jpg
all the way to the right is Willis
and two over to his left is Phillip “Mando” Maldonado, a squad leader who we hiked-but who is on the sides of Mando?
who on the bottom row is second one in-
http://www.tbo.com/storyimage/TB/20130702/ARTICLE/130709924/EP/1/3/EP-130709924.jpg…maybe bottom row was Chase Madrid?
Duane? Jeff? (giggling)
https://www.instagram.com/p/BIUFU_bAmph/
both play…
Someone who was an ‘extra’ in the “Matt’s Saloon” bar scene shot the other night left the following comment on the fillum’s actual PUBLIC IMDB page ( in the comments section )…
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/board/thread/259039430
————————————————————
IMDB – Granite Mountain – Comments
Comment by: Binkconn – 1 day ago (Sun Jul 24 2016 22:44:52)
IMDb member since December 2003
Yep. They’re filming in and around Santa Fe, NM. I drove up three hundred miles to
do a couple days. Got to hear Jeff Bridges sing a country song in the same bar
he sang in in Crazy Heart, Josh Brolin and Jennifer Connelly were there, pretty wild!
————————————————————
Prescott’s first Wildland Division Chief Duane Steinbrink plays guitar and is in ‘Cowboy Band’… so nothing would do but ‘Crazy Heart’ Jeff Bridges ( as Duane Steinbrink this time ) got up to perform in THIS ‘fillum’ during the “Matt’s Saloon” scene filmed the other day/night.
And yes… this same ‘Evangelo’s Cocktail Lounge’ in Sante Fe that they are using as the FAKE location for the REAL “Matt’s Saloon” back in Prescott is the same BAR that was used for ‘Crazy Heart’, and the same place Jeff Bridges ( now playing Duane Steinbrink ) performed BEFORE in THAT ‘fillum’.
It’s all very ‘rinse and repeat’ in the film business.
They all LIKE working places they’ve worked before because they already know where all the good restaurants and BARS are in that area.
Some of the LOCATIONS being used for ‘Granite Mountain’ are the exact same ones that BOTH Jeff Bridges and Josh Brolin have ‘used’ before… in the film “True Grit” they already did together.
https://www.instagram.com/p/tldXK9Ihar/
yes, the Payson hard hat is indeed the coolest
**
** THE ‘FAKE’ GRANITE MOUNTAIN STATION 7
Actor Josh Brolin just posted a ‘first look’ PUBLIC photo taken of a scene being filmed inside the ‘fake’ Granite Mountain Station 7 over there in Sante Fe, New Mexico.
Corrugated steel building, just like the Prescott ‘Station 7’.
Actor in front of the camera appears to be Dylan Kenin, who is known to be playing deceased GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BITzpv_jIiE/?taken-by=joshbrolin
Sign on the wall above the actor’s head says “BE FIIREWISE! Build defensible space”.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BID6Yk_D67v/
Steed’s corner on set:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BITiBh1DiPz/
Yep. Another ‘view’ of ‘inside’ the FAKE ‘Granite Mountain Station 7’.
FAKE workbench on the left side… ‘Steed’ sign on the right side.
Mensa Topic…
Trump has a lesser IG than Hillary-
but neither qualify but Bill Clinton does…
so the future candidates cannot join this IM mensa club but Sonny’s kid Ted could of and many of these fallen heroes
…be very interesting to actually see the higher ups IQs-
Does anyone have the add in link for MODIS for the Southern part of the US for Google Earth??
I have the add in for Canada.. From the Arctic Circle down to about mid Nebraska, not sure of which parallel it would be…
If you have it I would appreciate it..
Sorry to detract from the conversation…
Here?…
http://activefiremaps.fs.fed.us/googleearth.php
( Also has VIIRS, AVHRR, LANDSAT and GOES ).
Awesome.. thanks
My humblest apologies for slacking on today’s notable 6 Minutes for Safety. Today is the 8th anniversary of the Dutch Creek Fire on the Shasta-Trinity NF (SHF) in northern CA in 2008 where Rookie NPS WFF Andy Palmer was killed. The initially named Eagle Fire would be renamed the Dutch Creek Fire and would eventually be engulfed by and incorporated into the Iron Complex. The ’Dutch Creek Protocol’ would then be the outcome of this deadly and totally preventable debacle.
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/six-minutes-for-safety/This-Day-in-History/TDIH_DutchCreek.pdf
WARNING: SEVERAL SAIR PHOTOS MAY BE DISTURBING AND/OR OFFENSIVE TO SOME VIEWERS.
I was the Safety Officer on the neighboring Division Delta and listened to all this on the radio and did my own ‘investigation’ of this fatality. I talked with numerous WFF’s and WFF Supervisors that were involved with this incident shortly afterwards and even years later. Several verified the EMT/Paramedic debacle of removing the tourniquet, a major medical faux pas.
After, the fatality and during the Investigative process, two Federal Criminal Investigators asked to speak with our Division D Fallers who worked in Division Bravo that day. They asked them to accompany them to the fatality site area to determine which trees the NPS Engine Crew WFF’s had dropped versus those felled by these Fallers the day of the fatality to create a helispot and/or Landing Zone and/or open area to facilitate the Coast Guard Hoist Helicopter operations.
The Fallers would later draw me a map indicating that these NPS WFF’s were actually SPORT FALLING (just dropping trees for the heck of it) that day and cut as many as seventeen (17) trees, and left several of them hung up in other, standing trees.
The DVS B was from Out-of-Region and was demobed shortly after the fatality. A competent, qualified DIVS would have walked his Division throughout the shift and noticed and inquired about anyone SPORT FALLING trees. Ya think maybe he was demobed so quickly so as to avoid any conflict with the SAIT ‘first establishing a conclusion, then finding the ‘facts’ to fit that conclusion?’
The 6-Minutes for Safety excerpts will be addressed first, then the SAIR, so it MAY seem a bit confusing to some of you.
Here are several excerpts from the 6 Minutes for Safety post that are SOMEWHAT AND/OR MOSTLY OR COMPLETELY FALSE.
“Other firefighters arrive on scene. Nomex shirts are used as pressure bandages on shoulder and leg injuries. The injured firefighter is reported as having severe bleeding and being conscious. The severity of the injuries and the sense of urgency are not communicated to paramedics dispatched in an ambulance to the incident.”
THE LINE EMT REALIZING THE SEVERITY OF PALMER’S INJURIES PLACED A TOURNIQUET ON HIS SEVERELY INJURED AND PROFUSELY BLEEDING LEG. THE LINE MEDIC WAS DOWN BELOW AND NOT ON THE LINE AND/OR ON SITE AT THE TIME.
“As the medics arrive on scene they realize the injuries are much more serious than they had been told and decide to facilitate a rapid evacuation via carryout.”
EITHER THIS LINE MEDIC OR THE THIRD ONE REFERRED TO A FEW PARAGRAPHS DOWN, THAT WAS DOWN BELOW HAS NOW ARRIVED ON SCENE AND PER ACCEPTED MEDICAL PROTOCOL (depending on what State), THE MEDICAL PROVIDER WITH THE HIGHEST CERTIFICATION LEVEL HAS THE FINAL SAY ON SCENE. THE PARAMEDIC THEN REMOVES AND/OR DIRECTS TO BE REMOVED THE TOURNIQUET! ARE YOU F**KING KIDDING ME?
THE TOURNIQUET REMOVAL BY THE LINE PARAMEDIC HAS BEEN VERIFIED BY NUMEROUS OTHERS THAT WERE ON SCENE THAT DAY SEVERAL TIMES OVER THE YEARS
Moving on to the SAIT SAIR, of course, the ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION: “FACTUAL” REPORT on page iii, ‘Disclaimer’ states: “Based on all evidence available to the SAIT, we know that FC1 [Andrew Palmer] was injured from being struck by a tree during a felling operation.”
COMPLETELY DISINGENUOUS!
Yes, he was “injured from being struck by a tree during a felling operation” but that begs the question. There is more …!
PERSPECTIVE CLARIFICATION: When looking at these fatality site photos and/or maps, imagine yourself on the dozer line with the slope falling away from you. The large, dead standing snag is down below and the smaller green tree they fall into it are on or just below the dozer line. Imagine the large dead standing tree snapping off and falling towards you.
EXHIBIT 3A – SITE MAP – PART 1 – SITE MAP TREE (NOTE UPPER LEFT PHOTO – STUMP OF FELLED TREE WITH IMPACT TREE IN BACKGROUND) on page 23. The UPPER RIGHT PHOTO (“CAT FACED TREE THAT CAUSED INJURY TO FC1 [PALMER] INDICATES WHAT REMAINED OF THE IMPACT TREE AFTER BURNING. IT WAS A SOLID, LARGE DIAMETER AND TALL, DEAD STANDING TREE INITIALLY.
THE NPS WFF’s INTENT WAS TO DROP A SMALLER GREEN TREE FROM ABOVE INTO THIS LARGER DIAMETER DEAD, CAT-FACED TREE BELOW. As any WFF and/or experienced, competent faller knows, it is NEVER a good idea/plan/action to drop a smaller tree into a larger tree expecting to knock the larger tree down. It is basic physics.
What occurred was THE SMALLER TREE WAS NOT DROPPED, AS INTENDED, SQUARELY INTO THE LARGER DEAD STANDING SNAG. BECAUSE OF THIS FALLING ERROR, IT GLANCED OFF TO THE SIDE OF THE LARGER DEAD STANDING SNAG. THIS GLANCING ACTION CAUSED THE STANDING SNAG TO BEGIN PULSATING/WAVERING BACK AND FORTH UNTIL IT SNAPPED OFF AT/OR ABOVE THE CAT FACE AND THEN FELL UPHILL STRIKING C\FC1 PALMER, SERIOUSLY INJURING HIM.
(More to follow in next post)
(Continuation of above post on Dutch Creek Incident)
The NPS cutter did not even know he was there and/or injured until he heard him moaning from behind a nearby stump where Palmer attempted to seek refuge.
Photo 6 on page 35 indicates the felled tree and impact tree for details and visual.
“Fifty-five minutes since the accident. The patient is prepared to move and the decision is made to go to the ambulance rather than waiting for the helicopter. The ambulance is approximately 2000 ft down the dozer line.”
Photo 13 on SAIR page 42 – photo of MANY WFF’s carrying Palmer down the dozer line in a Stokes litter.
EXHIBIT 3A – Part 2 SITE MAP (Tree) SAIR page 24 – fairly good map
Pages 25-28 have a series of travel/route maps, however, focus on Exhibit 4C on page 28 (Site Map Transportation – Ground) and note the DISTANCE from the INJURY SITE down the dozer line to the ROAD BELOW – APPROXIMATELY 2000 FEET.
“ONE HOUR AND 25 MINUTES SINCE THE INCIDENT. A THIRD PARAMEDIC has arrived on scene and the DECISION IS MADE TO WAIT FOR THE HELICOPTER. Firefighters start clearing a zone for hoist extraction.”
So then, how far could all those WFF’s carried the seriously injured Palmer in almost an HOUR AND 35 MINUTES rather than wait for a helicopter? Most likely all the way down, then driven to the helispot only a few miles away. (Conveniently missing from the SAIR map exhibits).
“One hour and 50 minutes since the accident. Multiple delays of the USCG helicopter are caused due to poor communications of patient status, potential use of a Forest Service helicopter assigned to the fire, and method of extraction. Once the USCG is enroute, communication about the new extraction location, radio frequencies and patient status is an issue and slows the extrication efforts. While being transferred to the hoist basket, personnel on the ground report profuse bleeding. No patient care can be given while being hoisted.”
“THE POTENTIAL USE OF THE FOREST SERVICE HELICOPTER ASSIGNED TO THE FIRE” refers to the hiking Palmer downhill to the road and driving him to the nearby helispot option.
One of those delays was a subsequent PRE-FLIGHT CHECK since it was Coast Guard policy/protocol to preflight once in the morning and then anytime thereafter just in case some other issues arose. So then, there is an additional what? – 15 to 20 minutes before they can launch?
PROFUSE BLEEDING? NO SHIT? THAT’S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU REMOVE A TOURNIQUET.
In the links from the 6-Minutes for Safety post, you will find the USFS SHF July 27, 2007 (yes, you read it correctly – a year earlier) 24-Hour Preliminary Briefing (aka 24-Hour Report) of the July 25, 2008 Incident stated the MISSION was: “WHILE SECURING A LINE AS PART OF MOP-UP” and the ACTIVITY was “FELLING A TREE TO SECURE THE LINE.” The NARRATIVE goes on to state: “WHILE SECURING A FIRE LINE AS PART OF MOP-UP OPERATIONS on the Eagle Fire …”
The line was ALREADY secure and Bravo Division along with Division Alpha were probably the ‘oldest’ and most secure Divisions on the entire fire.
The July 31, 2008, 72-Hour Expanded Report would modify the mission slightly with: “MITIGATING HAZARD TREES DURING MOP-UP” and the ACTIVITY would remain the same.
The 72-Hour NARRATIVE goes into some more MOSTLY FALSE DETAIL talking about how their Engine broke down, the Engine Captain stayed with the Engine to facilitate repairs and: “… the three [Engine] crewmembers WERE ASSIGNED AS A CLASS B FALLING TEAM to Bravo Division on the Eagle Fire.”
Very disingenuous here. The “three [Engine] crewmembers WERE [INITIALLY] ASSIGNED AS A CLASS A SAW TEAM BECAUSE THEY WERE INEXPERIENCED AND ONLY ALLOWED TO BUCK AND LIMB TREES!
The USFS SHF July 27, 2008 (yes, you read it correctly) 24-Hour Report of the July 25, 2008 Incident stated the mission was: “WHILE SECURING A FIRE LINE AS PART OF MOP-UP” and the activity was “FELLING A TREE TO SECURE THE LINE.” The narrative goes on to state: “WHILE SECURING A FIRE LINE AS PART OF MOP-UP OPERATIONS on the Eagle Fire …”
The line was ALREADY secure and Bravo Division along with Division Alpha were probably the ‘oldest’ and most secure Divisions on the entire fire.
During two consecutive days after the fatality, Hot Shot Crews working in very remote terrain on the same fire, were injured, both requiring helicopter MEDIVACS. The first one took almost 2 hours and the second one over an hour. The Crew Supts. were pissed because they took so long . They asked me to talk to the IMT about their concerns because they said otherwise they would refuse the assignments. The IMT response was ‘We will look into it’ or something like that.
So then, as Paul Harvey used to say: “Now you know the rest of the story” so in this case you know more of the story.
Thank you for that.
“The NPS cutter did not even KNOW he was there and/or injured until he heard him moaning from behind a nearby stump where Palmer attempted to seek refuge.”
Unbelievable.
Thank you RTS. I will thoroughly read it while waiting in waiting room before procedure number one this week that should of been awhile back and they said it would have if I allowed the doc they offered asap but I opted for the best so you wait for quality… So thank you for all that details. I appreciate you.
So Joy has rubbed shoulders with many of the actors and knows quite a number personally–even having some make visits to her cookie cutter home in Congress. She after all did much ice sculpture and culinary work in their industry. She tells me that some of the best are involved in filming this ordeal of the Yarnell fire deaths. She says it is just another area where awards will be handed out and money made yet very little will be done toward improving conditions for the grunt wild land fire fighter.
She says and I agree that it is a pattern seen way back from the Mann Gulch incident that overran 16 and killed 13. 12 smoke jumpers in 1949.. The bosses or those responsible for the deaths get awards or white washed, while the subordinates take the beating, a continuing sequence unbroken because the power structure is unwilling to admit to the facts. Joy believes this movie will do nothing to improve the system.
It’s just going to be a TRIBUTE film. That’s all.
It still would not surprise me if there are special popcorn boxes in place at the concession stands ( supplied by the producers ) that have American flags printed on them and even ( perhaps ) the NAMES of the 19 deceased Hotshots.
That being said…
Claudio Miranda is the CINEMATOGRAPHER for this puppy… and he is, in fact, one of the best in the business.
So some of the “principal photography” is probably going to be nothing short of ‘stunning’.
That’s because that is all HE cares about.
That’s HIS job. To make ‘pretty pictures’.
Might actually even win an Oscar just for that part.
He’s good enough to pull that off.
I thought that was a between us chat but it is what it is…life moves on…so anyways my point was I think funds should not be focused to movies and memorials but to the human factors there is still men and women and ??? on the line today and tomorrow so funds should go for better training and safety equipment is all and maybe attention to things that should matter-
I think the FOCUS for better training is for management since I am seeing so much mismanaged fires-
we should make the time for even people
like this little girl:
https://www.instagram.com/p/_Ggw1TIRob/
http://media.parentsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/02200057/christmascardsfiregirl.jpg
yet the actors are on set playing on roles and ego feeding when the attention should NOT be posting a logo of IM to promote ugly words…but you are right this movie has some top notch folks from behind the scenes to the very people acting and yes it may see an award Sonny but how does that help the fella on the line just memorializes the 19 plus shows the families and friends and Duane and etc. but my point is SOOOO many patterned tragedies how come NOW it gets a movie when there were fires in the past that had much more numbers in losses and did they ever see attention or movies…messed up world.
side note: it is funny to see Hollywood pals stop by unannounced or announced in stilettos and hike with me in those shoes…I still shake my head…I offered my new hiking boots but they say they live and breathe in their heels…sorry if you read this the person I am talking about….but it is funny…and I think just like Val Kilmer and Sean Penn eating in my area— it is just a town that you can just chill and not worry so much if people will recognize you unless Simon says “hey guess who was in our town…” But it is place you can eat there and not really be recognized…not because the folks to the town are doing the Thorazine shuffle like a zombie but they don’t give a shit like I seen here in Yarnell—these people eat this movie shit up…how many times have I been desert walking and run into BIG TIME stars in the desert—do you know why—-they are getting therapy in the famous rehab in Wickenburg and they are out horseback riding—I really do not give a crap about that world—seen it and lived it and glad I am as simple as I am…anyways enough…I will post a few instagram links that matter to me-
https://www.instagram.com/p/-wXzipoRps/
https://www.instagram.com/p/9UdlvRoRmq/
they got a MacLean book—why not the movie?
https://www.instagram.com/p/6phnuuIRsq/
the YHF happened and since we lost these men—are they getting movie time?
in case the higher ups are watching here- here is a good photo for you to focus on—
https://www.instagram.com/p/6qf-6EIRoF/
safety matters!
the master himself:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BEXmgLxF8Mk/
Claudio Rocks!
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
July 26, 2016 at 7:32 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> the master himself:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BEXmgLxF8Mk/
>> Claudio Rocks!
The most recent PUBLIC photo on that ‘Claudio’ page was posted just 15 hours ago, and it’s actually just a ‘copy’ of what actor Josh Brolin just posted to HIS PUBLIC Instagram page.
It says the figure in the background is ‘Granite Mountain’ cinematographer Claudio Miranda himself… with a ‘broken collarbone’ and his arm in a sling.
I wonder if the injury happened ‘on set’?
Direct link to the ‘original’ PUBLIC photo posted by actor Josh Brolin just 15 hours ago…. supposedly showing cinematographer Claudio Miranda with a ‘broken collarbone’…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BITxeIbjqGf/?taken-by=joshbrolin
PUBLIC photo caption/text…
——————————————–
joshbrolin
Claudio Miranda ( background with broken collarbone ) and lady in dark colors. @kathrynboyd_ @lamodelsrunway @lamodels #babe #directorofphotography #claudiomiranda #granitemountain @black_label_media #leicaq
——————————————–
or even Donut’s campaign and cause…show attention there:
I just read all of this. I told everyone the fuckin’ Park Service is Numba 10 (the worst) and sometimes even Numba 10,000 (the very worst it can be).
Falling is a very, very, very, very dangerous job. Fallers should NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER be made up of miscellaneous fire people. Big trees used to scare the fuck out of me as a hotshot sawyer and I was FEARLESS.
And those clowns sound like they should only have been in a three ring circus. From the Chief Clown that sent them on that assignment all the way down to the now dead clown who didn’t live long enough to learn any better.
Just me reading between the lines, those kids were called in to help them get some bucks for school as a favor to someone, not to actually get anything done. They were put in a quiet corner so they would not annoy the grownups on the active fire. I assume the overhead expected them to stay in their class A lane, chop stuff up, avoid cutting off their own limbs, and do minimal damage to the equipment. I know NIFC is not a babysitting service, but I get the impression that lots of westerners see FFing as a summer jobs program for forestry students.
I’m I way off base?
No you are not. But the one problem with children…is that if they are left without adult supervision, especially with grown up toys to play with they can kill themselves. Although in this case it sounds like the botched medevac is what actually killed him.
As the old saying goes, “If you have one boy, you have a boy, if you have two boys, you have half a boy, if you have three boys, you have no boy at all.”
And I will tell you one more thing, one reason I am so pissed off is that I read this kid’s bio and Andy Palmer was just a big, happy go-lucky young man who was looking for some excitement in his life and some fire money. I used to know a kid just like him and here is a photo of him in action,
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
No gloves, no ear protection, no CHAPS, no TRAINING, no AUTHORIZATION, no COMMON SENSE, no SUPERVISION, no FEAR, not even any RESPECT…while fucking with something many times bigger than he was that could kill him in a heartbeat…nothing but a desire to see the tree with a lighting caused fire in it on the ground.
And here is the some more photos of the same kid in action a few years later with all of the above after he lived long enough to learn those things. The difference between the two? Andy was put into play by “THEM.” The second kid did it all on his own when nobody was knew any better was looking.
And since my public is clamoring to know why the National Park Service is Numba 10, with some big exceptions, most notably those who were trained by the USFS and their hotshot crews;
1. National Parks have more in common with private campgrounds than they do National Forests or Public Lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management. They are primarily small, closed environments where wildfire is a rare occurrence, even in the “big” parks that are the crown jewels of the nation. The Grand Canyon, Yosemite, Yellowstone etc. (yes I know all about the big fires in Yosemite and Yellowstone, I helped fight many of them with my telephone and computer, there are exceptions and for those fires, they were not just NPS fires, they were all hands on deck).
You simply play the odds. Bandolier National Monument (and don’t get me started on the difference between national parks, monuments, sea shores, historical reserve, historic site, geologic site, historical park, recreation area etc) has 10,000 acres (?) the Santa Fe National Forest has more than three (3) million. Who is more likely to see a wildfire on their own unit, a Bandolier NPS engine crew…or a Santa Fe USFS engine crew?
2. The NPS manager who was so eager to sent those kids to that fire wanted to get them some experience because they weren’t getting on their home unit, very few park service employees do. NPS wildland firefighters can have a lifetime in FIRE in the National Park Service and never see one on a National Park or any of their other administrative units other than very small low impact “smokes.”
in the one photo it does not appear to have a hinge showing in the photo- and what I learned from Sonny on our trails- NO HINGE= means that tree can fall any direction. In one photo the way the tree is leaning, the notch is cut in the wrong place- Wow and I am a housewife and I know that 🙂
also to me, they are cutting too close to the notch but who am I—I was just taught from the best Tex Gilligan- 😉 those are simple things fellers should know…
plus I noticed he is notching on the opposite of the leaning side of the tree for no reason except to make it fall more dangerous—
So lesson learned here is consult a logger before logging- probably an old school retired one-
https://www.instagram.com/p/ypuZAbC5zk/
Gary= new school talent ;0)
Thank you Joy, but compared to a real faller and logger…I was always just another kid with a chainsaw.
Gary,
The NPS WFF’s took advantage of the situation with taking full advantage of having their supervisor not with them, while he was dealing with the Engine repairs and they were doing their best to pass themselves off a a Class B Falling Team. The Their Engine Captain supervisor was not there to approve of and oversee what they were doing to achieve some type of fireline assignment,on false pretenses.
Not sure who you are referring to as the Chief Clown but it was certainly not their Engine Captain because he was busy dealing with his broke down Engine.
The Out-of_region DIVS maybe because he was certainly not doing his due diligence or else he would have discovered their SPORT FALLING activities and hopefully put a stop to it.
Actually I was referring to the NPS administrator who sent boys to fight a man’s fire as the Chief Clown. But now that you bring it up, I will refer to their Engine Captain as the Chief FUCK UP.
Chief Fuck Up was responsible for the training or the lack thereof of those kids. Guess what? If one of my kids went into my bedroom (or anywhere else) that I was babysitting while I was trying to fix a sudden broken pipe under my sink and kills themselves with a gun I never taught them could kill them and left out for them to play with or gave them SOME training on how to properly use, I am guilty of MANSLAUGHTER just like your stupid FUCK BUTT FUCK ASSHOLE SIXTY NINE (69) BUDDIES on the Yarnell Hill Fire you stupid FUCK.
Did you see the size of those bars those kids had compared to the trees they were trying to cut down you STUPID FUCK? They took a knife to a gunfight…who sent those kids there without any adult supervision and the wrong tools you STUPID FUCK? They were on the Shasta FUCKING T for God’s sake…not on the FUCKING TONTO!
Why don’t you stick to what you are good at you STUPID FUCK, cutting and pasting historical quotes and being a fire historian.
Any more questions?
Oh…and I forgot the biggest problem you STUPID FUCK, Chief FUCK UP should have left Junior to babysit the engine while that stupid Chief FUCK UP hitched up his NPS issued girlie panties and took the rest of his crew to the fucking fire.
Fuck me silly and call me Sally. An entire REGION 5 hotshot crew sat out the Yarnell Hill Fire because their fucking CHASE truck was broke down. We didn’t even have CHASE TRUCKS back in the day, they cost too much .and nobody has ever mentioned that fact except for ME!
YOU FUCKING SODOMITE APOLOGIST!
Wait…was that rant misogynistic and homophobic?
Don’t answer that…I already know.
Every day I try to be perfect and every day I fail miserably.
Oh…and one more thing at least. No SPOTTER watching for widow makers.
But at least I am a self-aware homophobic misogynist. So that counts for something…right? You’re right…I should vote for Donald Trump.
And since it was a wildfire…I guess I should have been wearing a fire shirt…right Bob…with the sleeves down as opposed to a synthetic short sleeved uniform shirt? Although you can’t gig me on no fire trousers or fire shelter, that was before they were issued.
Although check out the olde tyme gold USFS patch with the Prescott National Forest rocker. Pretty cool…that was back in The Day.
I sure am glad I don’t have any plans or need to ever return to the reservation. I think my web footprint on this blog is big enough to guarantee no one will ever hire my for anything ever again.
And one more thing. When I do backslide (everyday)…I really hate myself. I have to go now and self flagellate. And no RTS…that is NOT what you and your buddies do in a circle.
And another thing, NOBODY saw what that kid was doing out there and put a stop to it? NOBODY? No sector boss, no line bass, no SAFETY OFFICERS?
Where the fuck were they (DO NOTHING SAFETY OFFICER JOKES)…sittin’ on their asses in fire camp sippin’ on hot coffee while bullshittin’ and huggin’ a salamander? WTF…Over?
Whoops, meant to say, “Division Boss” instead of Line Boss although he could have been there as well…at some point, at least overhead in a slick.
The only place I EVER saw “Do Nothing Safety Officer Jokes” was sittin’ on their asses in fire camp sippin’ on hot coffee while bullshittin’ and huggin’ salamanders!
with all of the other camp slugs.
OK…I think I am done now…please carry on.
Gary,
Holy f**king shit Sherlock, that was quite a tirade! I’d tell you to go f**k off but I don’t want you going off again. You might hurt yourself.
It was NOT my fault. I was on a neighboring Division that was very active with a lot of moving parts and we were fortunate enough to never have an accident or injury.
I do not know if Division A/B had a Safety Officer that day. I think not because it would have been mentioned in the SAIR otherwise.
Yes, you are correct, there are many Safety officers hanging around doing nothing productive, sucking down coffee and juices.
I am NOT one of them.
I think you went headlong down the Slippery Slope comparing a chainsaw to a firearm, a False Analogy Fallacy.
I filed three of the eight total SAFENETS on this fire.
07/29/2008 7HH58QSAFE
08/02/2008 7HD3YFSAFE
08/07/2008 7HJJL2SAFE
I did my part. The Iron Complex was a very dangerous and deadly fire.
It was very tragic and very unfortunate that Andy Palmer was killed. and his family, friends, and loved ones lied to about all of it.
Gary-
I met alot of firefighters along the way since this fire and alot of men really like RTS’s leadership style…so do you think you jumped too fast earlier—was RTS even tied to that area? I know you like to make a shake but on this one I think you might want to see if RTS was a part of that area—
Joy, (my former secret CL)
Since I’m Gary’s lap dog and I speak fluent ‘olson,’ I can tell you that he was not blaming RTS for the death of the brand new wff. He was taking him to task over this:
“The NPS WFF’s took advantage of the situation with taking full advantage of having their supervisor not with them, while he was dealing with the Engine repairs and they were doing their best to pass themselves off a a Class B Falling Team. The Their Engine Captain supervisor was not there to approve of and oversee what they were doing to achieve some type of fireline assignment,on false pretenses. ”
RTS places blame on the 41-day high school graduate, on his first fire ever, for the accident. He was taking advantage of the situation…like the regular teacher is out sick so let’s get one over on the substitute.
The problem was Palmer’s supervisor should have looked after him instead of waiting for the engine to get repaired while hanging out in camp. Apparently there was a complete lack of fireline supervision included a safety officer that would have realized what was happening and put a stop to it. There’s no way a Faller A should have been cut loose in a falling module in a place like that – certainly not without direct supervision. Did they forget to check red cards on check=in or something?.
There is no way you can blame the kid for taking advantage of anybody. I’m not saying the kid was not responsible for his own actions but seriously, who doesn’t understand that a new guy (and so young) would need someone to look out for him – especially on his very 1st fire? Supervisor’s dropped the ball. End of story.
One more thing: You ever notice a pattern that it’s never the supervisor’s fault?
Woodstack
I didn’t say it was your fault Robert. This however is what you DID say, “Not sure who you are referring to as the Chief Clown but it was certainly not their Engine Captain because he was busy dealing with his broke down Engine.”
So…that took me back because of all of the PTSD trauma I have had over the past three years of you always blaming the firefighter and vouching for the supervisors and managers that were significant contributing factors and in the case of Andy’s death…I will go so far as to say CASUAL factors in his death.
As far as I am concerned, you came back at me while defending someone who is morally guilty of manslaughter…and for that, you deserve my full wrath.
If you don’t want me to hurt myself, quit being so fucking stupid and such an apologist for “THEM.” And you and they know who they are.
There is NO excuse in the world for the Engine CAPTAIN to sit around a garage and wait for his engine to be repaired or to transfer gear to the replacement engine while his poorly trained, poorly supervised, poorly equipped wildland firefighters who are HIS responsibility go off to fight on a big boy fire on the Shasta T. I have fought fire and dropped trees on the Shasta T…and it is no place for FNG’s.
Please quit defending the indefensible and get on the right side of WF history…you are part way there, but you are a seriously flawed rebel. Please become part of the solution instead of being such a big part (the tip of the spear) of the problem.
Joy…hush.
And yes, I just refreshed my page and read the response from the Chairman of the Board of Morning Wood LLC, and he said what I wanted to say except he said it way better.
I just wish the fuck the Woodsman and WTKTT would write my highly acclaimed and much anticipated tome, “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters” after I send them bullet points and we might get somewhere on this project.
got it.
GO WOODSMAN!
Yep–very dangerous to have someone falling a tree weighing tons and often with dead branches or branches spread out that will nail that fellow if he does not know what he is doing. Dangerous for those around him as well. And what is a B faller? Is that one a Bad faller–one that needs his Mommie? You are either a faller or you are not–sort of like mining–no B miners–you either cut the mustard or you don’t.
It becomes even more dangerous when the boss is a novice along with the faller. Kind of like Marsh and Steed dropping those men off into a death trap when they would have known better had they been more informed. Too bad they ascribed to the strickly taking order idea considering that some of those under those two disasterous bosses must have had better sense than they had.
Sorry that they failed their primary duty–that would be keep their men safe and alive–but maybe pointing it out will make a few aware of how they can needlessly kill their men and why they themselves were killed along with the men–They skirted every safety rule and allowed their men to do the same.
Woodstack,
You posted: “RTS places blame on the 41-day high school graduate, on his first fire ever, for the accident. He was taking advantage of the situation…like the regular teacher is out sick so let’s get one over on the substitute.”
I didn’t think I was blaming Andrew Palmer.
I was laying it on the next in charge, who had the Engine Crew that fatal day AND the slack Out-of-Region DIVS AND the incompetent Line Medic that removed or ordered to be removed the tourniquet that was keeping him fro bleeding to death.
RTS,
I had to interpret what you meant when you said the “NPS WFF’s” as being the engine crew which included a brand new guy. You didn’t exclude him.
Yes you did place blame on others as well. That’s true. I just don’t see how such a greenhorn could possibly take advantage of anyone unless managers allowed themselves to be taken advantage of through laziness or complacency. If you are hereby removing any blame from Palmer, I can go along with that.
I would like to know why the fact that the DIVS was out-of-region had anything to do with it? In-region out-of-region, isn’t qualified in the position enough? I noticed you termed this out-of-region DIVS as ‘slack.’ When was this known, if true? One would hope that substandard supervisors would be removed immediately following the discovery. It does no good to allow them to keep working putting forces as risk. In fact, anyone who has knowledge of this situation and allows it to continue would themselves share responsibility for everything that occurs as well.
I’m going to stand up for the line medic you place blame on for removing the tourniquet if you cannot prove to me that you have quals in EMS. The standards of care are constantly evolving & changing. How would you know what the proper treatment is? They weren’t able, for whatever reason(s), to get the patient to a trauma center in a reasonable amount of time. Spread some blame around that area.
I’ll meet your 10&18 and up you one Common Denominator of Tragedy Fires:
” On relatively small fires or deceptively quiet areas of large fires. ”
Why didn’t the IMT have a safety officer on this division? Was is a quiet area of the fire compared to the division you were on, with all the action?
You said:
“I was on a neighboring Division that was very active with a lot of moving parts and we were fortunate enough to never have an accident or injury.”
It sounds like the IMT focused safety supervision on certain parts of the fire but not all parts of the fire. You did say that you don’t remember if that division had a safety officer or not. What’s the IAP say? There must be one still available since this was not long ago and it was a fatality fire.
I still say a supervisor needs to look out for their subordinates and Palmer didn’t have proper supervision which contributed to his unfortunate death on his very first fire. That’s the sad reality.
In closing, I’d like to point out one more fact that’s commonly easily forgotten. Guess who is ultimately responsible, and criminally liable I might add, for everything that happens or doesn’t happen on the fire? You got it: The Incident Commander.
That’s why is imperative that each & every piece of the machine is operating properly. The health & well-being of every single firefighter demands it always.
(some parts may seem like a lecture, but many others read this blog too, so…)
Woodrasp
Woody Woodrasp,
You paosted: “I had to interpret what you meant when you said the “NPS WFF’s” as being the engine crew which included a brand new guy. You didn’t exclude him [Andy Palmer].”
You set me straight on my post about the “NPS WFF’s” which certainly would have included Andy Palmer. That was a preventable oversight on my part.
Thank you. I stand corrected.
Woody Woodsman,
You posted: “I’m going to stand up for the line medic you place blame on for removing the tourniquet if you cannot prove to me that you have quals in EMS. The standards of care are constantly evolving & changing. How would you know what the proper treatment is? They weren’t able, for whatever reason(s), to get the patient to a trauma center in a reasonable amount of time. Spread some blame around that area.”
I have never been an EMT. My medical training and experience started with my Boy Scout First Aid merit badge and continues with First Aid/CPR Refreshers every few years.
What I do know from the Basic ABC’s of First Aid is you NEVER remove a tourniquet until it can be removed only by a physician when the patient arrives at a definitive care facility.
“They weren’t able, for whatever reason(s), to get the patient to a trauma center in a reasonable amount of time. Spread some blame around that area”
They f**ked around for hours doing nothing WAITING for a helicopter. The ‘Golden Hour’ is for the city incidents, but out in the Bush, it’s a friggin’ joke, it’s more like a lie.
All those big, strong WFF’s pictured in the alleged ‘Factual’ Investigation Report easily could have carried him down to the road to the waiting pickup truck, and driven to the nearby helispot, and then flown to the hospital in Redding.
One of the other things NOT in the alleged ‘Factual; Investigation Report was that the Coast Guard Hoist Helicopter could not land at the Redding hospital because it was too big, so they flew to the airport and by then Palmer bled out and died.
No blame to be spread elsewhere as far as I;m concerned.
I will tell you what Captain FUCK UP was…Captain FUCK UP was LAZY…Captain Up said, “Oh…I think I will sleep in and then lay around the pool and lick my nuts like I used to when I was a helislack, and then have a late breakfast and then check in with the shop and see how that parts order is coming before I hit the bars tonight…let the new kids go to the fire and get fire time under their belts. because he”was busy dealing with his broke down Engine.” Say what?
You make it sound like Captain Up had to stay behind because he was about to cure cancer…or something else important…instead of (not) watching them fix his busted down POS fire truck. Oh…and “transferring” gear from one engine to the other. Now that job takes a Captain…a Captain FUCK UP!
Who the fuck do you think you are talking to? Do you think I just fell out of the back of a hotshot crew carrier yesterday?
Apology accepted.
Here’s the summary……….and I thought many of the crew members on GM were just kids? I’m speechless…
“Incident Summary:On June 12th, 2008, Andy Palmer graduates from high school. He completes Basic Firefighter training June 24th and Wildland Fire Chain Saw training (S-212) June 28th. He is hired as a seasonal firefighter on an engine crew June 29th and completes his A Faller taskbook on July 4th.
July 22, 2008, the engine receives a resource order for the Iron Complex, California. The supervision at the park are motivated to see the engine crew obtain an assignment and call the crew in on their day off The crew suffers a series of complications enroute to the fire including mechanical problems with the engine that lead to the eventual separation of the crew and engine captain after arriving at the incident. The remaining crew members are encouraged to pursue a line assignment as a falling team. The IMT personnel assign the crew as a falling module
.
During that assignment the crew cuts a tree that is outside their falling qualifications. A class C ponderosa pine is cut, falling downslope into a fire-damaged
sugar pine. A portion of the sugar pine breaks off and falls upslope, hitting firefighter
Andy Palmer, resulting in multiple severe injuries…and the loss of a firefighters’ life
.
It was Andy’s first fire assignment.”
Rest in peace, young man, You never had a chance.
From the summary:
” The remaining crew members are encouraged to pursue a line assignment as a falling team”
Who? Who encouraged the remaining engine crew members to take a line assignment as a falling team………………in Northern California,,,,,,,,,,,,,in big-ass Sugar Pine country……………………….18 DAYS AFTER COMPLETION OF THE LOWEST LEVEL MOST BASIC FALLER TASKBOOK…………….on Palmer’s 1st freakin’ fire of his life? Was it their supervisor? The guy that was blameless, hanging out in camp with a logistics assignment, waiting on a replacement engine? Pitiful!
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on July 26, 2016 at 2:39 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> It was Andy’s first fire assignment.”
>>
>> Rest in peace, young man, You never had a chance.
I’m more than speechless. This one makes me want to puke.
Boys with toys. Fuckin’ around on a ‘fire’.
Do you realize how many actual ‘similarities’ are going on here with what happened on the TWISP fire?
– Some evidence still says the CAPTAIN of that ‘Engine’ that went off the road was NOT WITH THEM that day, at that assignment. He was either sick or otherwise engaged… but rather than UTF the assignment… the morons at the Okanogan Forest just sent the engine out on the assignment anyway… WITHOUT its ‘Captain’.
– One of the firefighters killed was just some ‘kid’ on his college break. He was a ‘theatre major’ back in college. His MOTHER worked for the Okanogan Forest and she just got him the ‘Engine crew’ job as a ‘summer job’.
– The one firefighter who SURVIVED by crawling 40 feet up the embankment through flames and lost most of his face in the process was also just ‘making some money’ for the summer. All he ever wanted to be was a police officer.
WTKTT,
I agree. It is sickening.
I’ll throw this ‘out there.’ Supervisors at the park (home unit of the engine) seemed to have been desperately trying to get those kids out on an assignment…so much so that they filled the resource order without having talked to the personnel that was supposed to fill it. They were frantically calling, after accepting the order, to try and round up the kids (it was their day off.) The fed guys here can expand on this but I know many local budgets are augmented by sending their resources out of area because the home unit receives reimbursement for the personnel/equipment. It helps them ‘make’ their budget back home.
Well done, cheap sorry bastards supervisors, ya sent the kids out to make extra money for them & you, and look what happened. Sometimes life has no ‘do-overs.’
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on July 26, 2016 at 4:01 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> It helps them ‘make’ their budget back home.
I think the situation has now gotten so bad that there in no ‘helps’ about it.
I think a LOT of ‘fire departments’ in or near the WUI now absolutely DEPEND on that ‘wildfire dispatch money’ every year in order to just ‘make the table’.
Brings us right back home to ‘Granite Mountain’ and the ‘Elephant in the Room’ that still hasn’t been talked about enough.
THAT ‘unit’ was, in fact, TOTALLY dependent on being ‘dispatched’ to wildfires to ‘make the table’. There was NEVER enough MONEY coming from the City of Prescott itself to totally support a Type 1 IHC Hotshot crew UNLESS they were ‘making the table’ out on the road.
Somehow… somewhere… that kind of constant ‘pressure to perform and MAKE MONEY’ ended up contributing to what is now a Historic National Tragedy and what will hopefully REMAIN “The Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefighting”.
It’s a record that is going to be hard to beat.
Someone else will have to fuck up just as badly… AND make it a ‘full crew’ of 20 instead of just 19.
I think ( I HOPE ) the ‘record’ is ‘safe’ for a long… long… long time.
YES..we should NEVER lose sight of that CONTRIBUTING FACTOR in the deaths of the crew…that is why Darrell Willis, Chief Fraijo, Mayor Kirkendahl (SP) and the entire City of Prescott City Council has blood on their hands.
WTKTT,
And I’ll add to you additions……..
It’s rampant, playing fast and loose with providing personnel and equipment to make money for the home unit. This also creates an incentive to launch personnel into higher and higher positions in ICS because it means mo money, mo money, MO MONEY! The whole system is ripe with fraud! That’s how you end up with a NPS faller team in Nocal with someone that 41 days earlier was still a high school student. It’s how you end up with a battalion chief on a city fire department as a SPGS, OPSC, etc, etc. Did you know it should take 10-15 YEARS to even become a DIVS trainee….and THAT is with a tremendous amount of fire assignments under your belt. There are those who say it should take 20, and they wouldn’t be wrong. It takes a LONG DAMN TIME to do it right. There’s a good reason for the time it takes to progress through the system of qualifications. More and more are being flown through the process instead of doing it by the book, and that’s called FRAUD.
Woodbranch
I’ll sign YOUR taskbook… if you’ll sign mine!
Deal.
All too common now.
All too often.
Like out-of-control evil Boy Scouts just giving each OTHER ‘merit badges’ to get up to the ‘higher pay’ levels.
Has to stop.
If Willis was granite mountain’s supervisor wouldn’t he be putting pressure on marsh to move his hotshot crew into Yarnell for structure protection–perhaps even telling marsh that their jobs depended on them complying?
Dianne,
Not necessarily, at least the day prior and the day of the YH Fire according to cell phone records.
Willis’ cell phone records indicated he called Marsh on June 29th to notify him of the fire and the morning of June 30th to warn him about structures and getting an anchor point if my memory serves me correctly.
And then again ?? times once he heard of the burnover and deployment.
I’m sure WTKTT will have much more detail.
Diane,
WTKTT is most familiar with the evidence that some communication might have been going on between them.
It’s important to remember that at that point, both Marsh and Willis were serving on a state-run fire and were under different lines of command, if that’s not too strong a phrase given that this fire seemed to have little command structure anyway. Willis was leading a structure group at the Double Bar Ranch nearer to Peeples Valley and Marsh was working as a division supervisor (DIVS) along the southern and western end of the fire. Normally, the DIVS would have several crews to supervise, and would communicate with them on a radio channel that everyone on the DIVS as well as overhead could hear. Marsh had only one crew to supervise, his own GM IHC. As RTS pointed out, that meant he could communicate on the crew channel, which would not have been heard by only his crew, no overhead. That’s one reason we don’t really know what they were up to most of the day. Some of these communications were recorded incidentally on videos recorded by bystanders, but some of those are hard to hear, and are incomplete.
Willis might have called on the cell phone, but Marsh’s wife said there were no calls to or from that phone during the afternoon (don’t remember the exact time). No investigators examined that phone before it was returned to Marsh’s wife in a cloak and dagger rendezvous in Prescott, where she claims to have ditched the phone in a trash can. No one else’s cell records were examined.
Willis could also have communicated through others on the fire, people who did seem to have direct contact with GM, but there is no proof of that.
We discussed quite a lot about this in Chapeters XXI and XXII, so you might want to take a look there.
My personal opinion is that even if Willis had never spoken to any GM crew member that day, previous conversations, funding fights, etc. made it clear to GM that they were expected to do structure work when needed. They had been lauded a few weeks before for their role protecting structures on the Doce Fire. That was fresh in their minds at the time.
Whoops…forgot that one, thanks. That COULD be the case because the NPS if fucked up in too many ways to count. But if your base 8 is paid by fire, the Fire does not reimburse for it, but wait…that is intra-agency, so maybe that is exactly what that needle dick bug fucker NPS manager was doing. They are truly a world class collection of ASSHOLES. Even good guys who move up the ranks of the NPS have to drink the Asshole Cool-Aid that turns them into assholes or they don’t move up.
And as you know…I am a guy who does not pull any punches with asshole USFS or BLM asshole managers…and I am here to tell you that NPS asshole managers are in a world class all by themselves…they have no asshole manager peer group with ANY other agency.
Full Disclosure; I WAS bitten by a NPS Park Ranger when I was a small child so…
Whoa! That explains EVERYTHING!!!
Thanks for putting the coup de grace bullet (figuratively speaking of course, I do not condone violence in any form to another person, unless they really do deserve it but that is shit on a whole nother lever than what we are talking about here) in Stupid Fucks head.
Jesus H. Fucking Christ…I try so hard to so nice to him because he really has earned our respect…but he can try the patience of Job…and I have read about Job…and I ain’t no Job.
And yes, Andy died for the same reasons those kids on the Twisp Fire did.
WTKTT,
You posted: “– Some evidence still says the CAPTAIN of that ‘Engine’ that went off the road was NOT WITH THEM that day, at that assignment. He was either sick or otherwise engaged… but rather than UTF the assignment… the morons at the Okanogan Forest just sent the engine out on the assignment anyway… WITHOUT its ‘Captain’.”
Strong evidence exists that the regular Engine Captain called in sick that day, a fairly normal thing for most employees in most jobs.
Typical of the OWF, rather than UTF the assignment or better yet,just make the Engine unavailable, they just sent the engine out on the assignment anyway with the Assistant Engine Captain..
Not sure if he was fully qualified, another OWF habit.
Strong evidence exists that those on the left flank followed the Basic WFF Rules and came through just fine while those on the right flank did NOT follow even the most basic WFF Rules, i.e. LCES, and that is where ALL the burn injuries, burnovers, and fatalities occurred.
Robert the Second, I was told you were recently looking to be picked up as an AD or something in Colorado or maybe NM? Didn’t poke for details not my place. I got a neck I like.
Is your usual crowd feelin some heat from keeping ya on with them or what’s the story? Jefe didnt much like the presentation so the old guard lined up behind him? My fellas said he was polite but was happy to see you leave. He didn’t like your presentation so much. Same old same old.
Keep us posted, brother. The road up ain’t flat.
Type6,
Not now. The adults are talking.
Woodsman
Type6,
You know what ‘they’ say about rumors, however, there is something to be said about ‘The HS Network.’
**
** AIR ATTACK INFLUENCE ( REDUX )
Reply to Diane lomas post on July 25, 2016 at 9:13 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> I am interested in air attack’s influence on this situation.
There was a pretty extensive ( and detailed ) discussion on this topic not too long ago…. back in Chapter 21 of this ongoing discussion.
That ‘discussion’ continued for quite awhile… but got ‘started’ right around HERE on that previous chapter…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-337498
A lot of the ‘details’ being referred to below in these ‘summaries’ are contained in THAT previous discussion.
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Apparently Granite Mountain was assured when they went into
>> Unburned fuel to assist in Yarnell that they would have air coverage.
At 3:50 PM, Field OPS1 Todd Abel was captured in a video recording saying the following to Eric Marsh over an open TAC radio channel…
TRANSCRIPT OF THE ROBERT CALDWELL 3:50 PM VIDEO
————————————————–
Video filename in the SAIT evidence folder: Robert_Caldwell_IMG_0749_2389.MOV
The video is only 12 seconds long.
THIS CALDWELL VIDEO STARTS AT EXACTLY 1550:08 ( 3:50:08 PM )
+0:00 ( 1550:08 / 3:50:08 PM )
( DIVSA – Eric Marsh ): …Yea… I’m tryin’ to work my way off the top.
+0:04 ( 1550:12 / 3:50:12 PM )
( OPS1 – Todd Abel ): Okay… I copy… ah… just keep me updated…
ah… ya know… you guys hunker and be safe and then… ah…
we’ll get some air support down there ASAP.
THIS CALDWELL VIDEO ENDS AT 1550:20 ( 3:50:20 PM )
—————————————————
So the key phrase to consider has always been…
“…we’ll get some air support down there ASAP ( As SOON AS POSSIBLE )”
There has been a lot of ‘debate’ about whether such a statement from any up-level supervisor on any Wildland Fire can EVER be considered an actual ‘promise’… but the consensus is still that following that statement… Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ( and indeed, anyone who heard that statement from Abel ) had every reason to believe that ‘Air Support’ was going to switch its attention from the Peeples Valley / Model Creek side of the fire down to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire at ‘any moment’ following the 3:50 PM statement from OPS1 Todd Abel.
>> Diane lomas also said…
>>
>> yet AA stayed in People’s Valley long after they were no longer needed
>> there and requested to be in Yarnell area.
That’s correct.
Exactly 16 seconds after the END of the Robert Caldwell video, where we hear OPS1 Todd Abel “telling” Eric Marsh (quote) “we’ll get some air support down there ASAP”, we actually HEAR Air Attack Rory Collins attempting to do EXACTLY that and telling Thomas French ( in ‘Bravo 33’ ) to start directing his attention to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire ( exactly as OPS1 Abel had just told Marsh he would try to arrange ).
So while we do NOT have radio capture of it… 16 seconds was actually plenty of time for OPS1 Todd Abel himself to make a quick call up to Air Attack Rory Collins for the ‘Air Support on the Yarnell side’ that he had just promised Marsh, and for Rory Collins to now, in turn, be immediately passing that ‘request’ on to Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’.
And if that is what OPS1 Todd Abel actually did… then it is highly likely that Eric Marsh himself would have then HEARD this request from OPS1 Todd Abel going up to Air Attack Rory Collins over the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel.
SIDENOTE: ADOSH was NEVER allowed to even interview Air Attack Rory Collins, and never had the chance to even ask him if it really was OPS1 Todd Abel who asked him to shift attention to the SOUTH side of the fire circa 3:50:21 PM.
So Marsh would have heard OPS1 Abel actually doing exactly what he had just told Marsh he WOULD do. Abel was now “trying to get some Air Support down there ASAP”.
Marsh would have also heard Air Attack Rory Collins’ response to OPS1 Abel, which was probably along the lines of just a quick “Okay… we’ll se what we can do”, and then we hear Rory Collins doing exactly that as he immediately now calls Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ on the Air-To-Air channel.
So here it is… at exactly 3:50:26 PM… and just 16 seconds after OPS1 Todd Abel had finished telling Eric Marsh (quote) “we’ll get some air support down there ASAP”,
** THE AIR-TO-AIR RADIO EXCHANGE BETWEEN AIR ATTACH RORY COLLINS
** AND THOMAS FRENCH, WHERE COLLINS TELLS FRENCH TO TURN HIS
** ATTENTION TO THE ‘YARNELL’ SIDE OF THE FIRE.
——————————————————————————
Air-To-Air channel radio traffic from Panebaker video 20130630_1628_EP
+2:38 ( 1550:36 / 3:50:36 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Bravo three three… Air Attack.
+2:40 ( 1550:38 / 3:50:38 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead Air Attack.
+2:41 ( 1550:39 / 3:50:39 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah… Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.
+2:58 ( 1550:56 / 3:50:56 PM )
(B33 – French): Copy… we’re headed that way.
+3:00 ( 1550:58 / 3:50:58 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Ground contact out there… ahhhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha
+3:05 ( 1551:03 / 3:51:03 PM )
(B33 – French): Ground contact Alpha.
——————————————————————
So according to this ‘evidence’… it looks like OPS1 Todd Abel did EXACTLY what he had told Eric Marsh he was going to do, in their 3:50:08 PM conversation captured in the Robert Caldwell video.
It appears that the moment OPS1 Todd Abel was done talking to Marsh ( and making that ‘promise’ about “getting Air Support down there ASAP” ),Todd Abel IMMEDIATELY made a call up to Air Attack Rory Collins ( at 3:50:21 PM, on the Air-To-Ground channel ) and asked Collins to refocus the Air Support to the ‘Yarnell’ side of the Fire… and then Air Attack Rory Collins did exactly that.
But even though Thomas French TOLD Air Attack Rory Collins, at 3:50:56 PM, that he was now “…headed that way”… Thomas French did no such thing.
He continued to just ‘finish up’ the retardant line project he had been working on up there in the ‘Miner’s Camp Road’ and ‘Model Creek Road’ area(s)… and he would NOT actually turn the attention of ‘Air Support’ to the ‘Yarnell’ side of the fire for almost another 40 ( FORTY ) minutes.
>> Diane lomas also said…
>>
>> When AA finally showed up it was too late to be of help to Granite Mountain.
That’s correct.
It was ALSO ‘too late’ for Air Support to do much about protecting the town of Yarenll proper OR the Glen Ilah subdivision.
By the time ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) ‘arrived’ down there on the Yarnell/Glen Ilah side of the fire… the smoke column had ALREADY started to ‘lay over’ and obscure most of the terrain below. The only area left ‘down there’ where it was still clear enough to safely make ‘air drops’ was to the NORTH of the town itself, along the EAST flank of the the now SOUTH-headed fire.
The area to the EAST of Highway 89, around the U-Store-It facility just NORTH of Shrine Road… and then on out into the foothills to the NORTH of Yarnell.
When the ‘next’ Air Attack, ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis ) showed up shortly after the deployment to ‘relieve’ Thomas French and John Burfiend… Warbis asked French if he wanted him to ‘continue’ that retardant line work there to the NORTH of town.
Thomas French ‘laughed’ and said that wasn’t even the area where he had WANTED to be dropping retardant… but after getting down there so late that became his only ‘safe’ option.
>> Diane lomas also said…
>>
>> Since Willis was in charge of structures in People’s Valley at that time
>> did he influence AA to continue dropping retardant there rather than
>> allow AA to fly to Yarnell?
Since there was no full recording of the ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel traffic that afternoon, as there is for the ‘Air-To-Air’ radio channel traffic, there is no ‘full record’ of what ‘requests’ were being made by ground forces up to ‘Air Attack’ in that timeframe FOLLOWING the 3:50 PM radio captures of both Field OPS1 Abel telling Marsh “…we’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP” and then the corresponding immediate instructions from Air Attack Rory Collins to lead plane Thomas French to do exactly that.
All we have there are some ‘snippets’ of Air-To-Ground radio communications that were then ‘accidentally’ captured by Eric Panebaker and his Study Group in the time following 3:50 PM.
That being said… there IS ‘some’ evidence that even after Air Attack Rory Collins TOLD Thomas French to switch his ‘focus’ to the YARNELL side of the fire, at 3:50 PM, ‘some’ requests for more drops *may* have still been coming from SPGS2 Darrell Willis and even OPS1 Abel HIMSELF up there on the ‘Peeples Valley’ side of the fire.
But Darrell Willis himself testified to ADOSH that even he had noticed the ‘wind shifts’ and fire ‘fireline direction reversal’ by this time. Willis even admitted to ADOSH that it if were NOT for this ‘wind shift’… the fire would have most likely just blown through whatever they were doing up there and would have skipped over those ‘roads’ and flooded right into the town of Peeples Valley just as it eventually did into Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
The Air-To-Air channel recordings indicate that it was primarily Thomas French’s decision to ignore what Air Attack Rory Collins TOLD him to do at 3:50 PM… and that it was ( ultimately ) HIS decision to STAY up there on the NORTH side of the fire and to just keep using the ‘on-scene’ and even the ‘newly arriving’ Air Support ( VAT included ) to ‘finish up’ that little retardant line project he had been working on up there near Peeples Valley before ever even deciding to turn his attention to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area.
The BOTTOM LINE here is still that given what Marsh was TOLD by OPS1 Todd Abel at exactly 3:50 PM… and then given what we know for SURE that Air Attack then TOLD Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ to do immediately after that… ‘Granite Mountain’ had every RIGHT to ‘expect’ that ‘Air Support’ might be ‘showing up’ there on the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire at any moment…. from 3:50 PM onward.
But it never happened.
For any number of reasons ( some still unknown )… when Air Attack Rory Collins left the fire at 3:58 PM… Thomas French just decided, instead, to STAY up on the NORTH side of the fire and ‘finish up’ that little retardant project he’d been working on in the Miner’s Camp / Model Creek road area.
And even he would then later admit to incoming Air Attach Rusty Warbis that he had ‘waited too long’ before shifting the attention of Air Support to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire that day.
WTKTT,
Great summary and it’s what I hoped you would do in response to the post by Diane. I just want to say that when you said this:
“Since there was no full recording of the ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel traffic that afternoon, as there is for the ‘Air-To-Air’ radio channel traffic, there is no ‘full record’ of what ‘requests’ were being made by ground forces up to ‘Air Attack’ in that timeframe FOLLOWING the 3:50 PM radio captures of both Field OPS1 Abel telling Marsh “…we’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP” and then the corresponding immediate instructions from Air Attack Rory Collins to lead plane Thomas French to do exactly that.”
I just want to say that’s there’s no KNOWN (to us) full recording of A2G radio traffic. It’s still possible that it does exist somewhere.
I also want to be the first to say (because I know it’s coming) that while it’s irresponsible for crew leadership TO COUNT ON a promise of air support, it’s still doesn’t mean that IT DID NOT INFLUENCE their decision making process to leave the safety of the black and attempt to bust through ‘folly canyon’ which ended up killing the crew.
Thank you for your excellent work!
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on July 25, 2016 at 1:26 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I just want to say that’s there’s no KNOWN (to us) full recording of
>> A2G radio traffic. It’s still possible that it does exist somewhere.
You are absolutely right. My bad. I should have made that clear above.
An on THAT topic… I’ve been meaning to post about the following ever since the previous discussion in the other Chapter… and when Mr. Bob Powers said THIS with regards to whether there might be any ‘contracts’ in the public domain that would show the ‘specs’ for this AFUE study…
———————————————————————————
On June 1, 2016 at 3:25 pm, Bob Powers said…
The Studies are handled thru the National Interagency Fire Center Boise..
They usually release the final study documents when the Project is over.
Could be internal and not out to the public I could find nothing.
———————————————————————————
As it turns out… Mr. Powers is CORRECT… but only HALF correct.
I’m going to have to just do a ‘flash history’ here to explain something, but the larger details are at some of the upcoming ‘links’.
The ORIGINAL ‘Aerial Firefghting Use and Effectiveness’ study was ‘created’ by US Forestry when they got slapped up the side of the head by the GAO ( General Accounting Office ) for all of the huge ‘Air Support’ allocations they had been asking for some years ago… with no ‘proof’ to back up their ‘claims’.
The GAO basically ordered them to do a ‘study’ and PROVE why they needed so much money… and whether the money was being used ‘effectively’, or not.
The resulting “Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness” ( AFUE ) study project that was then created by USFS is documented HERE on US Forestry’s own website…
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/aviation/afue/index.html
That ‘page’ has its own ‘Background’ links and blurbs explaining in more detail where this AFUE ‘study’ came from… and WHY.
It also says this…
———————————————————————
AFUE ground data collection modules began collecting data full-time in May 2015 and had particular success documenting initial attack (IA) fires early in the Western fire season.
———————————————————————
Eric Panebaker’s ‘group’ was simply just one of the already-established ‘data collection modules’ that happened to show up in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013, to ‘do their thing’ as part of this official ‘ongoing’ USFS AFUE ‘study’.
So Mr. Powers is CORRECT in that the ORIGINAL study was an ‘internal’ thing and was simply created and beign managed ‘internally’.
The ‘data collection teams’ ( like Panebaker’s ) were also ‘internal’ and using USFS ’employees’ so there don’t appear to be any CONTRACTS ‘put out’ for those ‘early teams’.
HOWEVER!…
US Forestry is NOW ‘putting out PUBLIC contracts ( for bid ) for this AFUE thing, and those contracts DO have the ‘specifications and requirements’ in them!
See the following US Forestry ‘request for bids’ for ‘Air Support’ modules to be used in this ongoing ‘Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness’ ( AFUE ) study of theirs…
AFUE Mission Aircraft – USFS Contract Opportunity
https://govtribe.com/project/afue-mission-aircraft
From the top of this USFS ‘Contract Offering’…
—————————————————————————–
AFUE Mission Aircraft Presolicitation
Classification: Transportation, Travel, and Relocation Services
Department or Agency: Department of Agriculture
Office: Forest Service
Response Deadline: April 14, 2015 (15 months ago)
Contract Opportunity Information – Description from FBO.gov
The intent of this solicitation and the resulting contract is to obtain fully contractor operated and maintained Air Tactical Group Supervisor and Mapping services to perform fire mapping, initial attack, extended attack, and large fire project management in support of the Aerial Firefighting Effectiveness Study and nationwide wildland firefighting operations.
The aircraft, sensors, user interface and recording hardware, software, training, associated equipment, and personnel described within are to be utilized in support of the Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness (AFUE) Study.
AFUE is tasked with objectively documenting and developing a consolidated approach, metrics, and system to evaluate the use and contributions of firefighting aircraft in supporting the objectives of wildland fire incidents.
This platform may be utilized at any location in the Continental United States or Alaska in which aerially delivered suppressants are being utilized. The general mission profile, excluding ferry, consists of 30-45 minutes to and from the fire, 2-3 hours of data collection over the fire. The crew is generally comprised of the contractor pilot, one AFUE provided aerial supervisor or aerial observer occupying the co-pilot station and an aft crew station which may be staffed by an AFUE provided instructor, trainee, observer, or sensor operator. Data collection consists of the recording of incident radio communications, documenting and processing overall fire behavior (rate of spread, intensity, etc.), targeted repeated observations of suppressant drop footprints and coverage continuity, and targeted fire behavior before, during, and after interactions with suppressant drops.
The US Forest Service – AFUE is the sole owner of any data (documents, imagery, audio, etc.) collected during any AFUE mission and maintains complete control of distribution.
This is a one year requirement for one airplane with sensor with the option for an additional four (4) years that may be exercised at the unilateral option of the Government. The Mandatory Availability Period is for 180 days per year with the option to extend for additional days and an estimated 300 flight hours per year. This requirement is set-aside 100% for small business and the contract will be issued in accordance with FAR part 12, Acquisition of Commercial Items in conjunction with FAR part 15, Contracting by Negotiations.
A Draft Statement of Work is attached and comments on the draft will be accepted through March 9, 2015.
Comments shall be submitted in writing to Michael McFarlane at
michaelmcfarlane (at) fs.fed.us.
—————————————————————————–
The actual FULL REQUIREMENTS AND SPECIFICATIONS for this AFUE ‘Air-based data-collection module’ is included on the page above and is a PDF file with the name…
“Final_issued_AG-024B-S-15-0916_AFUE.pdf”
And if you examine the actual ‘contract requirements’ document… you DO find the ‘parameters’ that these ‘Aircraft-based AFUE data collection Modules’ will be REQUIRED to operate under.
One of those REQUIREMENTS ( in the contract itself ) says that, in order to fulfill the actual ‘Effectiveness’ part of this ‘Use AND Effectiveness’ study… it IS, in fact, ESSENTIAL to be capturing BOTH The ‘Air-To-Air’ AND the ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel traffic.
So… since these new ‘Aircraft-based AFUE data collection modules’ are just a new extension of the already-existing GROUND-BASED ‘data collection teams/modules’ ( like Eric Panebaker’s group that was in Yarnell )… it’s pretty safe to assume that the OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS being spelled out in this ‘contract’ are identical to the ones that already existed when the ‘Study’ was created… and ALSO apply ( and have always applied ) to the GROUND-BASED ‘data collection teams/modules’.
It is, then, HIGHLY LIKELY that Eric Panebaker and his ‘AFUE Data Collection Team’ were REQUIRED to have been recording the ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel that day in the exact same manner they were recording the ‘Air-To-Air’ radio channel.
But that ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel recording has never seen the light of day.
That is very unfortunate.
It also remains possible that while Eric Panebaker and his ‘AFUE data collection team/module’ may very well have been REQUIRED ( and were getting PAID ) to follow an ‘OPERATIONS GUIDE’ with included a ‘requirement’ to be recording BOTH the ‘Air-To-Air’ AND the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel… that they simply NEGLECTED to do so that day.
But that just makes them ‘fuck-ups’.
Eric Panebaker and his entire AFUE ‘team’ should have been INTERVIEWED following the Yarnell tragedy.
They were not.
I am miss reading or confused which is not new. The contract was let in 2015 so was not operational in 2013? Did I miss something or is that right?
Also on Air Tankers it is bad use to jump them around with out priorities.
The assistance in the Towns should have been set as a priority.
I do not think that was done based on what we have.
Reply to Bob Powers post on July 25, 2016 at 3:45 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I am miss reading or confused which is not new.
>> The contract was let in 2015 so was not operational
>> in 2013? Did I miss something or is that right?
They didn’t put out the ‘contract’ ( with specifications ) for the ‘Air-based Data Collection AFUE modules’ until 2015…. but the actual AFUE ‘study’ itself ( including the ‘ground based data collection teams/modules’ ) started in 2012 ( A full year before Yarnell ).
As I said above… the following official ‘AFUE’ page on US Forestry’s own website has a lot of ‘links’ about ‘Background’ and ‘History’ and other things related to this AFUE study…
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/aviation/afue/index.html
From the ‘Background’ link on that page…
NOTE: The ‘GAO Study’ references in their own background text are ‘live links’ to that original GAO report which was basically now REQUIRING USFS to create this “Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness” study program… in 2012…
————————————————————————–
Background
Various external reviews of the FS aviation program, and large airtankers in particular, have highlighted a lack of use and performance information to justify the size, scope and cost of both the existing and planned fleet. In response, the FS formed the Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness Steering Committee in 2012. The Committee implemented a pilot program to explore data collection methods that could be used to address the findings of the external reviews, as well as additional questions that were specifically identified by FS Fire and Aviation Management.
The pilot program identified that an intensive, nationwide, multi-agency, multi-year field data collection program was required to enable a complete, unbiased analysis of firefighting aviation use and effectiveness in the context of all wildland firefighting missions, objectives, and environmental conditions.
Analyses of AFUE data are necessary to inform responses to a recent GAO report, and include identifying ways to improve the current fleet and providing a more robust foundation for future aviation strategic planning and operations. The GAO report was the latest review to highlight the need for empirical data on the effectiveness of aerial firefighting as a component of greater fire management strategies. Since the effectiveness of any tactical approach to wildland fire management is highly dependent on the environmental conditions at the time and place of tactical action, and the tactical action may or may not occur exactly as planned, simply measuring outcomes is insufficient for determining effectiveness under all circumstances.
————————————————————————–
Eric Panebaker and his ‘group’ were simply one of the ‘ground-based data collection teams/modules’ that was already ‘operational’ by June of 2013 and just happened to show up at the Yarnell Hill Fire to ‘do their thing’ as part of this ( ongoing ) AFUE study.
I haven’t been able to find a PUBLIC copy of the actual OPERATIONS MANUAL for the ‘ground based data collection teams’… but I think the PUBLIC contract(s) now reveal what is in it… and has ALWAYS been in it.
In order to do a complete ‘Effectiveness’ study… it is CRUCIAL to not only record what the people in the airplanes are saying to each other ( the Air-To-Air radio channel )… but it needs to be ‘compared’ to what the overall Ground Forces are REQUESTING of them ( the Air-To-Ground radio channel ).
It’s not enough to just film the drops.
A proper ‘Study’ for both ‘use’ AND ‘effectiveness’ needs to have all the operations level radio traffic recorded as well.
That original ‘AFUE FIELD OPERATIONS MANUAL’ is bound to exist… and even if it isn’t just already sitting online somewhere… it’s certainly ‘obtainable’ with a FOIA request. It’s just another document totally paid for with taxpayer dollars.
Thank you that is much clearer.
Has an FOIA request been made for this information?
Reply to Diane lomas post on July 26, 2016 at 10:50 am
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> Has an FOIA request been made for this information?
Not that I am aware of.
Even if the actual “AFUE Data Collection Module OPERATIONS GUIDE” suddenly shows up and it DOES say, flat-out, that ALL of the AFUE Ground modules/teams have always been REQUIRED to record both the ‘Air-To-Air’ radio channel AND the ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel at any ‘incident’…
…it would still remain to be discovered if Eric Panebaker and his ‘AFUE Module’ that was in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 actually DID that.
And even if they did… then… ‘popping it loose’ will probably take quite an effort.
Case in point: The Aaron Hulburd videos ( ALL of them ), that were ALWAYS in the possession of BOTH US Forestry AND Arizona Forestry.
When Arizona Forestry was finally forced to release just that one Hulburd video known as the ‘original Helmet Cam’… Mike Dudley himself sent an email to other SAIT investigation members apologizing for it becoming known it existed but still ‘thanked’ his fellow SAIT members for helping him HIDE it as long as they were able to.
But even when that one video ‘popped loose’… we here on this forum pretty much proved that could not possibly be the ONLY video that Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd had ‘shot’ that day.
Sure enough… the resulting FOIA sent from InvestigativeMEDIA directly to the Prescott National Forest ( Hulburd’s actual employer ) finally ‘popped’ the other TWENTY VIDEOS loose.
Recently released US Forestry emails then proved that when USFS realized they could no longer hide the fact that there were actually ( at least ) 21 Aaron Hulburd ‘videos’… USFS lawyer Steve Hattenbach sent out some “Here is how we cover our asses” memos with “media talking points” explaining how USFS employees could ‘make this look good’.
Hattenbach told them the way to avoid the question about whether USFS had been Sthe vidoes was to simply admit that they had ALREADY given ALL of Hulburd’s videos to the Yarnell Hill SAIT investigation team… the moment they received them.
That enabled USFS to have ‘plausible denial’ that they had ever been ‘hiding’ any of the Hulburd videos ( and would also serve to throw the SAIT under the bus if they had to ).
But the SAIT ( Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, etc. ) NEVER revealed they had these videos at all… not even when they were LEGALLY bound to deliver ALL of their ‘Yarnell Hill evidence’ to the ADOSH investigators.
ADOSH never knew about ANY of the ‘Aaron Hulburd’ videos the whole time they were doing THEIR investigation.
So I’m sure if this ‘Panebaker’ Air-To-Ground video/audio recording exists… it will take a similar game of targeted FOIAs to ‘pop it loose’… and maybe not even then.
These people have already proved ( as we can see now in their own emails to each other ) that they have no problem breaking the law as long as they are ‘controlling’ the evidence and the information the way THEY want to.
Whoops. Smartphone ‘spellchecker’ crash above.
Don’t know what happened there… but paragraph above should have read like this…
“Hattenbach told them the way to avoid the question about whether USFS had been HIDING the Hulburd videos was to simply admit that they had ALREADY given ALL of Hulburd’s videos to the Yarnell Hill SAIT investigation team… the moment they received them.”
Watchful Woodsman, see my response to WTKTT below.Good call. You saw it coming
RTS,
Thanks for the nod. See my response below. Here is the highlight:
Me:
“Here is another case where differentiation must be made between what SHOULD NOT happen and what MAY HAVE happened at the time.”
Dawg
It makes me so upset thinking of those men (Granite Mountain) counting on air support that they felt was assured and never came when they so desperately needed it and explains their loud shouting in their final radio transmissions —counting on help that was not coming!! I feel that Granite Mountain did their part working so hard in those difficult conditions only to be betrayed by those they trusted!
WTKTT,
I too want to thank you for the detailed summary here. Good work.
I do have a few issues to bring up though.
You posted: “There has been a lot of ‘debate’ about whether such a statement from any up-level supervisor on any Wildland Fire can EVER be considered an actual ‘promise’… but the consensus is still that following that statement… Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ( and indeed, anyone who heard that statement from Abel ) had every reason to believe that ‘Air Support’ was going to switch its attention from the Peeples Valley / Model Creek side of the fire down to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire at ‘any moment’ following the 3:50 PM statement from OPS1 Todd Abel.”
“… but the CONSENSUS is still that following that statement… Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ( and indeed, anyone who heard that statement from Abel ) HAD EVERY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT ‘AIR SUPPORT’ WAS GOING TO SWITCH ITS ATTENTION … TO THE YARNELL / GLEN ILAH SIDE OF THE FIRE ‘AT ANY MOMENT’ … following the 3:50 PM statement from OPS1 Todd Abel.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
What consensus and by/from whom? “Consensus“ is defined as a general agreement about something : an idea or opinion that is shared by all the people in a group. So then, what group of people are you including in your ‘consensus’ category?
Margaret Thatcher derides ‘consensus’ when she said “”Ah consensus … the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies in search of something in which no one believes, but to which no one objects; the process of avoiding the very issues that have to be solved, merely because you cannot get agreement on the way ahead. What great cause would have been fought and won under the banner ‘I stand for consensus’?””
Andrew Jackson said “One man with courage makes a majority.”
Competent leaders know that ‘consensus is the LACK of leadership.
“The BOTTOM LINE here is still that given what Marsh was TOLD by OPS1 Todd Abel at exactly 3:50 PM… and then given what we know for SURE that Air Attack then TOLD Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ to do immediately after that… ‘Granite Mountain’ had every RIGHT to ‘expect’ that ‘Air Support’ might be ‘showing up’ there on the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire at any moment…. from 3:50 PM onward.”
“The BOTTOM LINE here is still … that … Marsh … [and] ‘Granite Mountain’ had EVERY RIGHT to ‘EXPECT’ that ‘Air Support’ MIGHT be ‘showing up’ there … AT ANY MOMENT …. from 3:50 PM onward.” (SOME EMPHASIS ADDED)
The bottom line is they had ‘EVERY RIGHT TO EXPECT AIR SUPPORT AT ANY MOMENT?’ Really?
EVERY competent, experienced WFF Supervisor never EXPECTS air support. AND furthermore, NO competent, experienced WFF Supervisor never EXPECTS air support AT ANY MOMENT whenever they hear an AA talking about it being ordered.
The above goes right along with what Mr. Watchful Woodsman correctly pointed out: “I also want to be the first to say (BECAUSE I KNOW IT’S COMING) that while it’s irresponsible for crew leadership TO COUNT ON a promise of air support, it’s still doesn’t mean that IT DID NOT INFLUENCE their decision making process to leave the safety of the black and attempt to bust through ‘folly canyon’ which ended up killing the crew.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Thank you again for the detailed summary and explanation.
Yea… well… certainly say that coming.
EVERY time this has been discussed YOU are the one who has to keep taking it back to “what a competent WFF Supervisor would do…
As in…
“EVERY competent, experienced WFF Supervisor never EXPECTS air support. AND furthermore, NO competent, experienced WFF Supervisor never EXPECTS air support AT ANY MOMENT whenever they hear an AA talking about it being ordered.”
I believe that’s just a ‘cut and paste’ from every other time this has ever been discussed.
You keep ignoring the ACTUAL question that has been on the table every time before when this was all discussed…. and is now on the table AGAIN.
Despite anyone’s ‘opinion’ ( yours included ) about what ‘competent WFF supervisors ever do or don’t do”… is it POSSIBLE that Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ( and even other WFF ‘supervisors’ in/around Yarnell and Glen on Illah THAT DAY ( keyphrase: THAT day ) ) were ‘assuming’… from about 3:50 PM onward… that ‘Air Support was ABOUT to show up over Yarnell / Glen Ilah at ‘any moment’.
The answer is the same as it has always been.
YES… it is POSSIBLE they were ALL ‘assuming’ that… and it’s also POSSIBLE that some ‘decision making’ was made based on that ‘assumption’.
Whoops. TYPO in the last message…
Should have read like this…
“Yea… well… certainly SAW that coming.“
And… I also meant to point out…
A CONSENSUS does NOT mean ‘everyone agrees’.
If ‘everyone’ in a group AGREES about something… then it’s called a ‘unanimous opinion’.
WTKTT,
You reposted what I posted: ““EVERY competent, experienced WFF Supervisor never EXPECTS air support. AND furthermore, NO competent, experienced WFF Supervisor never EXPECTS air support AT ANY MOMENT whenever they hear an AA talking about it being ordered.””
And NO, I am NOT cutting and pasting from other postings. That’s from memory.
I was hoping that you and others would be able to discern that in the CONVERSE as it applied to the GMHS Overhead, ya know, something like:
“EVERY incompetent, experienced WFF Supervisor EXPECTS air support. AND furthermore, incompetent, experienced WFF Supervisors EXPECT air support AT ANY MOMENT whenever they hear an AA talking about it being ordered.”
How’s that?
Do I detect, in there, a slight ‘crack’ in your hard opinion on this issue that after SPGS1 Gary Cordes had told OPS1 Abel to tell Air Attack to start “dropping at will” ( IMMEDIATELY ) in the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area… and that OPS1 Todd Abel is RECORDED telling his DIVSA he WOULD, in fact, “Get some Air Support down there ASAP”… and then ( 16 seconds later ) Air Attack Rory Collins is RECORDED telling Thomas French to switch his attention to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area…
…that ‘supervisors ‘down there’ in the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area really MIGHT actually have had SOME reason to BELIEVE they were going to ACTUALLY receive some fucking ‘Air Support’?
IM Mensa Master (RTS),
Your post seems to be in 2 parts (I’ll leave out my favorite sub-part of me being correct until the end)
Part 1:
WTKTT’s use of the word ‘consensus’ to describe the overall determination of a portion of the group concerning GM (Marsh) being told by Ops that they will get air support to their division as soon as possible and GM had an expectation that this would happen.
You don’t like the word ‘consensus.’ Maybe he should have said something like:
“The majority of the group believes it to be true that GM/Marsh was told by Ops that they would get air support to them as soon as possible and it was understood that it would happen.”
Part 2:
Your legitimate beef with competent wff’s expecting & subsequently counting on air support actually coming to them once promised and basing tactics on this assumption.
Me & you both agree that it’s asinine to takes risks with the resources you are responsible for based on a promise. Here is another case where differentiation must be made between what SHOULD NOT happen and what MAY HAVE happened at the time.
Saved the best for last:
I made a mistake in my writing that you quoted. I said:
“I also want to be the first to say (because I know it’s coming) that while it’s irresponsible for crew leadership TO COUNT ON a promise of air support, it’s still doesn’t mean that IT DID NOT INFLUENCE their decision making process to leave the safety of the black and attempt to bust through ‘folly canyon’ which ended up killing the crew.”
I should have said (and it’s minor but important):
“I also want to be the first to say (because I know it’s coming) that while it’s irresponsible for crew leadership TO COUNT ON a promise of air support, IT STILL DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT DID NOT INFLUENCE THEIR DECISION making process to leave the safety of the black and attempt to bust through ‘folly canyon’ which ended up killing the crew.”
The way I said it made it sound like it did not influence their decision. I meant to say that it may indeed have influenced their decision to leave the safety of the black.
Former Charter Member of the Wildland Genius Society (WGS)/Woodsman
The air support Marsh was requesting was undoubtedly for bringing the aircraft around to the most active side of the fire to deal with what had become the greatest life safety and property threats. Nothing more, nothing less!
Of ALL the external factors that I believe DID effect the crew’s move, and the cluster firefight, itself, I don’t believe moving the aircraft south had ANY impact upon the crews decision making process for the move.
When the crew started their descent into the bowl, they could see that no aircraft had yet moved to the southern edge of the fire, and Marsh likely knew this as well, from being supposedly positioned near the ranch..
There should have been NO expectation AT THAT POINT that aircraft would be eminently showing-up, because for whatever reason, they STILL HADN’T!
Of all the conversations that ‘might’ have taken place between Div A,, Steed, and the crew, I can’t believe, and will never believe, that one of them was, “Well, air support is supposed to be down this way soon, so bushwhacking into this green, brush-choked bowl is gonna be ok.”
Didn’t happen!
When Mike Dudley and the other SAIT investigators actually PLAYED their own ‘enchanced’ audio track of the 3:50 PM Caldwell video… OPS1 Abel then did TWO things.
1. He identified his OWN VOICE telliing Marsh to “Hunker and be safe” and his OWN VOICE then saying “…and we’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP ( as soon as possible )”.
2. Then he told them he “didn’t recall having that conversation” with Marsh.
That has always been in the “Yea, right… tell me another western”, category.
But regardless of that ‘not credible’ response on Abel’s part…
NONE of the ‘investigators’ ever even bothered to ask OPS1 Todd Abel if he ever lifted a finger to ‘make good’ on that ‘promise’ to DIVSA Eric Marsh.
We can HEAR Air Attack Rory Collins himself doing EXACTLY what OPS1 Todd Abel told Marsh was going to happen… just 16 seconds after Abel finished talking to Marsh… but there is still no confirmation that Collins’ own attempt to “get some Air Support down there ASAP” was a direct result of OPS1 Todd Abel trying to ‘make good’ on his own ( recorded ) ‘promise’ to Marsh.
But see the new comment I just posted below about Brendan McDonough now saying, in his recent for-profit BOOK, that there was a direct cause-and-effect between Marsh’s decision to take GM out an ‘escape route’ and Marsh being TOLD by Rory Collins that the fire could ‘overrun their current position’…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-342853
Brendan ( and his ghost write Stephan Talty ) have purposely presented what Brendan says he remembers hearing to make it look like the following is what actually ‘happened’…
1. OPS1 Paul Musser calls Eric Marsh and specifically asks him to bring GM to Yarnell to help try and ( Brendan’s own quote ) “SAVE THE TOWN”.
2. Marsh tells OPS2 Paul Musser… NO… we are staying in the safe black.
3. Air Attack Rory Collins calls Eric Marsh and tells him the fire is likely to (quote) “overrun their current position”.
4. Eric Marsh immediately ‘copies’ that ‘information’ from Collins and then immediately tells Collins he is now going to ‘plan an escape route’ for GM.
So it is now Brendan McDonough himself who is trying to get HIS ‘readers’ to believe that the information coming from Air Attack Rory Collins is what caused Eric Marsh to ‘change his mind’ in just the few moments between him telling OPS2 Paul Musser they would be “staying in the black” and then, suddenly, Marsh now saying he was “planning an escape for GM”.
ADOSH was NEVER allowed to interview Air Attack Rory Collins.
As situation I. Yarnell A d surrounding area quickly developed into a crisis of the town being over run by fire and elderly citizens needing to be evacuated. Help was requested again of granite mountain . Marsh originally said no but may have been persuaded by a team of supervisors to come to Yarnell with the provision of air support.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
post on July 25, 2016 at 5:15 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> The air support Marsh was requesting was undoubtedly
>> for bringing the aircraft around to the most active side
>> of the fire to deal with what had become the greatest
>> life safety and property threats. Nothing more, nothing less!
I agree.
There is still no evidence that when OPS1 Todd Abel told Eric Marsh ( at 3:50:08 PM ) “…We’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP ( as soon as possible )” that Marsh himself had either ‘requested it’ ( during the part of that radio call that was not recorded )… or that it had anything to do with ‘covering Granite Mountain’ during their ‘risky move’.
It was all about the fact that the fire was now heading INTO Yarnell and the Glen Ilah subdivision… and if there was going to be any chance of using Air Resources to ‘save’ anything… it better happen ASAP ( as soon as possible ).
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> Of ALL the external factors that I believe DID effect the crew’s
>> move, and the cluster firefight, itself, I don’t believe moving
>> the aircraft south had ANY impact upon the crews decision
>> making process for the move.
The CREW did not ‘decide to move’.
Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed did… and as far as we know… it really wasn’t even ‘on Jesse’ ( the idea to move to BSR ). That was all on Marsh and Steed just eventually ( reluctantly ) AGREED to what Marsh wanted to do.
So I believe it really all comes down to what Eric Marsh himself ‘believed’ regarding the ‘Air Support’ in this timeframe.
If it ‘factored’ into anyone’s ‘decision making’ at all… it would have been Marsh and/or whoever might have also been ‘urging’ him ( ORDERING him? ) to bring GM to town.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> When the crew started their descent into the bowl, they
>> could see that no aircraft had yet moved to the southern
>> edge of the fire, and Marsh likely knew this as well, from
>> being supposedly positioned near the ranch..
>>
>> There should have been NO expectation AT THAT POINT
>> that aircraft would be eminently showing-up, because
>> for whatever reason, they STILL HADN’T!
NO expectation of ‘Air Support’?
On anyone’s part?
When the fire is now rolling INTO both Yarnell and Glen Ilah?
What the fuck is ‘Air Support’ even FOR, then?
In the timeframe you just mentioned… the ‘smoke cloud’ had not ‘laid over’ yet and ( as photographs show ) still some ‘clear air’ flying corridors out in FRONT of the fireline.
If Air Support HAD turned its attention to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area when Air Attack Rory Collins told ‘Bravo 33’ to do so ( at 3:50 PM ), then there WOULD have been time to at least make an EFFORT to protect something ( anything ) in Yarnell proper itself and the Glen Ilah area.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes himself had told OPS1 Abel to tell Air Support to start “dropping at will” ( as in… RIGHT NOW ), when his 3rd trigger point had been met and he knew the fire would be coming into town.
Are you saying that even after doing that… SPGS1 Gary Cordes still didn’t have the right to ‘expect’ the Air Support that was known to be there over the fire to actually ‘show up’ where they were most needed?
**(CLARIFICATION CAPITALIZED IN PARENTHESIS)**
My statement:
>> When the crew started their descent into the bowl, they
>> could see that no aircraft had yet moved to the southern
>> edge of the fire, and Marsh likely knew this as well, from
>> being supposedly positioned near the ranch..
>>
>> There should have been NO expectation **(FROM THE CREW)** AT THAT POINT
>> that aircraft would be eminently showing-up, because
>> for whatever reason, they STILL HADN’T!
That statement is specifically referencing the only the crew’s (including Marsh, Steed, and the others, who we’ve heard time and time again, ‘could’ have had a voice in the matter) decision making processes, and the likely fact that based upon what they were seeing, or not seeing, as the case may be, the likelihood of ‘air support’ coming-in that in any way could assist them, or increase the safety of their bushwhack, could not be counted upon.
As far as air support coming to the south side of the fire, of course it would happen, when they got good and ready, as we have all noted.
Thanks for clarifying your thoughts there.
I think we are still in total agreement on the point that the CREW ( including Steed who was leading them at that point ) could not possibly have thought that Air Attack was going to be serving as THEIR own personal “lookout in the sky” while they attempted that risky move.
That is… of course… .unless someone had TOLD them that was supposed to happen, or something.. in order to convince them to attempt the ‘risky’ move at all.
But given all the circumstances that we DO have evidence for ( Cordes’ request for ‘drop at will’… right NOW, OPS1 Abel’s promise to Marsh, AA Collins’ DIRECTIVE to Thomas French… etc. etc. )… I still believe that SOMEONE there in the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area was fully under the impression, from 3:50 PM onward, that ‘Air Support’ was SUPPOSED to be ‘showing up’ in the Yarnell / Glen Ilah area “at any moment”.
WTKTT,
You posted: “That is… of course… .unless someone had TOLD them that was supposed to happen, or something.. in order to convince them to attempt the ‘risky’ move at all.”
It was the GMHS Overheard responsibility to advise AA of their location by radio and/or mirror flash (THEY DID NOT), advise AA of their intention(s) (THEY DID NOT), advise AA of their movements (THEY DID NOT), advise AA of their destination (THEY DID NOT), nor any other communications with AA until it was too f**king late!
Fire Order No. 7 – “Maintain prompt communication with you men, supervisor, and adjoining forces.”
AA is not specifically listed there and it does not matter, because it is what should have been done instead of being “intentionally ague”as YHF SAIT Co-Team . Leader Mike Dudley said.
That’s what other, competent, experienced WFF’s and Supervisors do.
RTS said, “nor any other communications with AA until it was too f**king late!”
Even at the end, the only “location” info from GM was, “We are in front of the flaming front.” If I thought I was just talking into air, i.e. not being heard by AA, I would hope that I would give some rudimentary position information on the off chance that someone else mnight hear it and relay the information. It’s almost like he thought someone DID know where he was. Maybe he was so in his own head that he didn’t realize how little he had communicated to anyone. That propensity probably didn’t start at the YHF, but as things deteriorated, it got much worse.
Muzzy,
It was a Steady Drift Into Failure for him and the way he fought fire and supervised his Crew.
Almost all radio transmissions were on Crew net.thus preventing anyone else for knowing what they were intending, doing, location, whatever.
YEARS of Prior Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes tragically ended that day.
RTS…
See the following ‘new post’ just a few comments BELOW…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-342994
There IS, and always has been, strong, reliable evidence that Jesse Steed himself DID communicate DIRECTLY with “Air Attack” ( John Burfiend in Bravo 33, at that point ) at least TWICE… and did almost exactly what you say ‘they’ ( GM ) did NOT do.
Steed was communicating GM’s ‘movements’ and ‘intentions’ and ‘destination’ and ( sorta ) their ‘location’ directly to ‘Air Attack’ sometime AFTER reaching the ‘Descent Point’ ( and now able to see the BSR itself )… and before the ‘deployment’.
Only problem is…
At the same time there is this STRONG and RELIABLE evidence he was doing that… the SAME evidence contains proof that he was also inserting LIES into the ‘information’ being relayed to Air Attack.
One example: circa 4:30 PM… moving through the black and towards the ‘ranch’.
Not a chance. If time and quote are correct.. Steed was ( at that moment ) intentionally LYING.
RTS said, “Almost all radio transmissions were on Crew net.thus preventing anyone else for knowing what they were intending, doing, location, whatever..”
It sounds like one of Woodsman’s lessons learned would be pertinent here: don’t cannibalize crews to fill in DIVS positions, but it f you must, make sure the crew and the DIVSt are not in the same chain of command.
Also, RTS, if they HAD radioed their position or intentions when they were at the saddle, asking for cover as they bushwhacked into the bowl, I hope several people would have jumped down their throats. In fact, pretty much anywhere between the good black until it was too late, they would have been ordered to turn back if anyone knew their exact position. I suspect that is the reason for FO 7, not so people know where to drop retardant, but so someone with a clear head can shout an order to stay in the black that gets through the fog.
Reply to Muzzy post on
July 26, 2016 at 3:58 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Also, RTS, if they HAD radioed their
>> position or intentions when they were
>> at the saddle, asking for cover as
>> they bushwhacked into the bowl, I hope
>> several people would have jumped
>> down their throats. In fact, pretty much
>> anywhere between the good black until
>> it was too late, they would have been
>> ordered to turn back if anyone knew
>> their exact position. I suspect that is
>> the reason for FO 7, not so people know
>> where to drop retardant, but so someone
>> with a clear head can shout an order to
>> stay in the black that gets through the fog.
Muzzy AND RTS….
I was about to just ‘Reply’ to RTS’s post above with his ‘list’ of what he says GM did NOT do… but decided to put it hear and address both of you since there is something that you are BOTH ‘mistaken’ about.
But first… let me just tell RTS what I was going to say about his ‘list’ above.
I AGREE!
If there had been any REAL intention of using Air Attack as any kind of ‘lookout’… Marsh and Steed could not have fucked that up any better if they had tried with all their hands and feet and all four chainsaws.
I also AGREE that there is no question Eric Marsh was being deliberately ‘obtuse’ that day… for reasons that are still under examination.
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley was RIGHT when he finally admitted what even HE thought to that roomful of Utah Firefighters, on June 20, 2014.
It WAS “as if they were being deliberately VAGUE”…. and probably for reasons just as Muzzy suspected. They were playing some kind of “forgiveness is easier than permission” GAME and were not making their decisions or intentions CLEAR to their direct up-level supervisor ( OPS1 Todd Abel ).
As far as we KNOW, anyway.
But ALL of that being said…
There IS solid evidence that Jesse Steed himself WAS attempting to report both their relative ‘position’ and their ‘exact intentions’… DIRECTLY to ‘Air Attack’ even just 10 minutes before they would all burn to death.
That PROOF has always come from what can be considered to be an ‘impeccable’ source.
DPS Officer/Paramedic Eric Tarr.
Go and read his ‘signed testimony’ again.
He is/was absolutely SURE he heard someone identifying himself with callsign “Granite Mountain 7” communicating DIRECTLY with ‘Air Attack’ on the Air-To-Ground channel.
He heard that person do it TWICE… and not long before the actual deployment radio traffic was going to hit the A2G channel.
And then BOTH of the other officers assigned to DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 ( Charles Main and Clifford Brunsting ) also VERIFIED what DPS Officer Tarr himself said in his report.
Here is exactly what DPS Officer Tarr said in his SIGNED testimony…
From public evidence document…
“M- Law Enforcement – no redactions.pdf”
—————————————————
Around 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) I was standing near the aircraft ( DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 ) monitoring traffic on channel A/G 16 ( Air-To-Ground channel 16 ) when I heard a voice come up on the radio with a Call sign of Granite Mountain 7.
He advised on the radio that they were moving towards Yarnell in the black.
A short time later he came BACK on the radio advising they were heading to a ranch they had in sight.
It was shortly after THAT when Granite Mountain 7 came back on the radio sounding excited, out of breath, and repeatedly clearing Air Attack with no response. ( The START of the MAYDAY calls at 4:39 PM ).
—————————————————
This ‘person’ that DPS Tarr heard on the radio using the ‘Granite Mountain 7′ callsign ( even BEFORE the ’emergency’ calls at 4:29 PM ) pretty much had to be either Jesse Steed ( both times ).. or perhaps Steed one time and Caldwell the next time.
The reason we KNOW that DPS Officer Tarr MUST be telling the TRUTH here is because the very fact that he DID hear this person say they were “headed to a ranch we have in sight” is because not long after that.. it became the exact REASON that Helicopter Ranger 58 was able to find the bodies there on the floor of that blind box canyon.
A few paragraphs later… Eric Tarr described it this way… in his recall of the 1800 to 1810 ( 6:00 PM to 6:10 PM ) timeframe…
—————————————————-
The smoke to the southeast had cleared somewhat and we continued our search in that direction.
I saw the ranch house appear through the smoke and KNEW that the Firefighters had SAID they were trying to get to a ranch house from their prior radio transmissions.
We began searching toward the Ranch House from the ridgeline when I located a group of deployed fire shelters off the nose of the aircraft at approximately 1810 hours ( 6:10 PM ).
—————————————————-
Both fellow DPS Officers and ‘Ranger 58’ crewmates ( Brunsting and Main ) verified in THEIR independent ‘testimony’ that that is exactly how things went down.
That while in the air… Eric Tarr had RECALLED hearing the ‘Firefighters’ SAY they were “headed to a ranch they had in sight”.
So there really always HAS been ‘evidence’ that ‘Granite Mountain 7’ was directly communicating with ‘Air Attack’ prior to the deployment… and while still not being nearly as CLEAR as they SHOULD have been… they WERE, in fact, trying to at least tell Air Attack ‘what they were doing’.
But here is the problem even with THIS ‘testimony’.
I believe it. I do NOT believe that the man who, just shortly after this, would be the one standing over these men verifying they were DEAD would end up lying in his own signed testimony.
So there is THIS ‘testimony’…
————————————————
“He advised on the radio that they were moving towards Yarnell in the black.
————————————————
If that really is what DPS Medic Eric Tarr heard Jesse Steed TELLING ‘Air Attack’ on the A2G channel… and in the timeframe indicated ( circa 4:30 PM )…
…then Jesse Steed was LYING.
Granite Mountain was NOT anywhere NEAR ‘the black’ at that point.
So therein lies the conundrum.
Yes… there IS EVIDENCE that ‘Granite Mountain’ was communicating with ‘Air Attack’ that day.
But the same evidence that proves they were at least TRYING to ‘communicate’ with Air Attack ALSO indicates they were fucking LYING while doing it.
WTKTT,
Thank you for the clarification on the GMHS and AA communication that day..
You posted: “But the same evidence that proves they were at least TRYING to ‘communicate’ with Air Attack ALSO indicates they were fucking LYING while doing it.”
Definitely a conundrum.
WTKTT,
When I say “communicate” I don’t mean “talk,” I mean, “clearly and unambiguously impart true and useful information.”
Lying while talking is not communicating.
Muzzy,
They were perfectly safe in the large black Safety Zone and should have stayed put.
It was too late once they dropped off the saddle.
I doubt he/they would have complied with an order to turn back if anyone knew their exact position.
Taken from research of aviation mishaps, they GMHS were driven by the hazardous actions and attitudes of ‘Plan Continuation’ whereby ‘errors made when a Crew decides to continue their original plan of action in the face of cues that suggest changing that course of action.’
Someone with a clear head would have gone hoarse shouting an order to stay in the black that got through the fog.
As one HS Supt. put it, ‘It wouldn’t have mattered how many safety briefing that Crew had gotten, the outcome would have been the same.”
Very unfortunate and very sad and very preventable.
RTS said, “Someone with a clear head would have gone hoarse shouting an order to stay in the black that got through the fog.
As one HS Supt. put it, ‘It wouldn’t have mattered how many safety briefing that Crew had gotten, the outcome would have been the same.”
Very unfortunate and very sad and very preventable.”
Very sad, indeed. In that case, I would reiterate my lesson learned from YHF: don’t work for a bad boss. Also, don’t work for a good boss who has a bad boss. I don’t know which Marsh was.
** AIR ATTACK ‘INFLUENCE’ ( REDUX ) – CONTINUED…
**
** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH NOW SAYS THAT AIR ATTACK RORY COLLINS
** TOLD ERIC MARSH THE FIRE COULD VERY WELL ‘OVERRUN THEIR POSITION’.
Reply to Diane lomas post on July 25, 2016 at 9:13 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> I am interested in air attack’s influence on this situation.
I was looking for a place to insert the following into the “What Brendan is saying now in his book” thread down below… but since this discussion is re-visting what INFLUENCE ‘Air Attack(s)’ may or may not have had on the actual ‘decision making’ on Granite Mountain’s part… might as well just post it here.
The following ‘excerpt’ from Brendan McDonough’s recently published for-profit BOOK is the section where the reader is supposed to believe it is ‘Brendan talking’ ( in the FIRST person ), and relating things that he, himself, heard OVER THE RADIO in the 3:26 PM to around 4:00 PM timeframe.
I’m just going to show that ‘section’ from his BOOK… and then ‘break it down’.
Pay particular attention below to what Brendan McDonough only NOW seems to be ‘asserting’ he HEARD with regards to what Air Attack Rory Collins was telling Eric Marsh circa 3:50 PM ( the same timeframe currently under discussion in this thread ).
From page 202 of Brendan’s new book
———————————————————————
At 3:26 PM the news darkened.
The flaming front of the fire had doubled in size to three miles.
Outflows from the ( approaching ) storm were reaching forty to fifty miles per hour.
And they’d swung around from the southwest to the west-northwest.
The fire began to pivot ninety degrees.
One flank of the fire heated up and began to run straight at Yarnell.
A supervisor reached Eric on the radio.
Eric relayed that the lines of retardant dropped by the tankers had been compromised: The fire had burned right through them.
The supervisor asked Eric if he could redeploy Granite Mountain into Yarnell, to try to save the town.
The answer came back: negative.
The crew was in the black. They were staying where they were.
For the next half-hour, I did my weather reports and kept an eye on the storm cell.
At about 3:50 PM, Air Attack called Eric and reported that the storm was pushing toward Yarnell and could reach the town within one or two hours.
The official warned Eric that the fire could overrun the crew’s current position.
Eric copied that and said he was forming an escape plan for Granite Mountain.
A supervisor on the ground checked in and asked Eric if he’d gotten the most recent weather update and if he was squared away.
Eric confirmed he had.
“Okay, copy”, the supervisor shot back.
“Just keep me updated– you know, you guys hunker and be safe, and then we’ll
get some air support down there ASAP.”
——————————————————————
This ‘quote’ from Brendan McDonough…
“At about 3:50 PM, Air Attack called Eric and reported that the storm was pushing toward Yarnell and could reach the town within one or two hours. The official warned Eric that the fire could overrun the crew’s current position.
The FIRST part of that… regarding Air Attack Rory Collins telling Marsh ( at 3:50 PM )
that the fire was still one to two HOURS away from Yarnell has been reported before.
It’s also been heavily discussed whether or not THAT information had any influence on any decision making… and people trusting the ‘2 hour’ reference much more than the ‘1 hour’ reference and then ‘believing’ there was more TIME to do something than there actually was.
But THIS statement coming from Brendan about what Air Attack Rory Collins (supposedly) ALSO said to Eric Marsh AFTER that seemms to be totally NEW… and is only NOW coming from Brendan in his ‘for-profit’ BOOK…
“The official ( Air Attack Rory Collins ) warned Eric that the fire could overrun the crew’s current position”.
If that is TRUE… and Brendan really did hear Rory Collins telling Eric Marsh that… it could have everything to do with the ‘comfort level’ discussions we KNOW took place immediately following that.
Eric Marsh could have been asking Jesse Steed about his ‘comfort level’ in simply STAYING where they were ( no matter how much black there was )… given that a qualified Air Attack might have just WARNED them their position was likely to be OVERRUN by the fire.
So here is just one more possible “What INFLUENCE did ‘Air Attack(s)’ have on the
decision making?” question to lay on the table.
And yes… just one more opportunity for RTS ( or others ) to ‘cut and paste’ the usual “No competent WFF supervisor would ever base decisions on ( fill in the blank )”.
But notice the ’cause and effect’ equence that Brendan himself seems to be trying to get the reader to ‘believe’ as he describes what HE ‘heard’ in the 3:26 to 4:00 PM timeframe…
———————————————————————————
3:26 PM – The news darkened. Flaming front doubles in size.
Outflows reaching 40-50 mph. One flank headed straight for Yarnell.
3:41 PM – A supervisor reached Eric on the radio. Eric relayed that the lines of retardant dropped by the tankers had been compromised: The fire had burned right through them.
NOTE: Brendan runs these two ‘radio calls’ together and is trying to say the same person that Eric was reporting the fireline situation to at 3:41 PM is then the same ‘supervisor’ who asked him to bring GM to town. That is NOT the case. Whoever Eric Marsh was actually ‘reporting’ the fireline status to at 3:41 PM was NOT OPS2 Paul Musser. The moment when Eric Marsh FINISHED that ‘report’ to whoever he was talking to is when OPS2 Paul Musseer then CALLED Eric Marsh.
3:42 PM – Supervisor ( OPS2 Paul Musser ) asked Eric if he could redeploy Granite Mountain into Yarnell, to try to save the town.
ALSO NOTE: There seems to be no doubt in Brendan’s mind that what HE heard on the radio was OPS2 Paul Musser directly ASKING Marsh to bring GM to town… and NOT the ‘watered down’ accound Musser himself gave about it just being an ‘availability’ check and no actual request for Marsh to do anything specific.
3:42 PM – The answer ( to OPS2 Musser from DIVSA Eric Marsh ) came back: negative.
The GM crew was in the black. They were staying where they were.
3:50 PM, – Air Attack ( Rory Collins ) called Eric and reported that the storm was pushing toward Yarnell and could reach the town within one or two hours.
Rory Collins ALSO warns Eric that the fire could overrun the crew’s current position.
3:50 PM: Eric copied that and said he was forming an escape plan for Granite Mountain.
———————————————————–
So right there… because of the ‘order’ in which Brendan and his ‘ghost write’ Stephan Talty chose to LIST these ‘real events’… it gives the reader the IMPRESSION that immediately after ‘copying’ Rory Collins’ WARNING to him about the fire potentially ‘overrunning their currrent position’ is when Eric shot to Collins saying he was now ‘forming an escape plan’.
Cause and effect ( according to Brendan ).
1. Rory Collins tells Marsh fire might ‘overrun their position’.
2. Eric ‘copies’… tells Collins he is now ‘forming an escape plan’.
ADOSH was NEVER allowed to interview Air Attack Rory Collins.
Isn’t there a conversation mentioned somewhere where Marsh was advised the fire “was going to overrun the crew buggies?
And doesn’t Marsh respond that he “has a plan” in response to that?
The crew was in the black and were in no danger of being overrun.
Perhaps Brendan was so busy spinning weather that he mis-heard the conversations mentioned above.
Yap you hit that one.
Also at 3:50 the crew was taking pictures of the Fire Hitting Yarnell and Texting to Family about it. At the Famous Rest area.
The 1 to 2 hours here is totally out of reality— at that time the Fire was in Yarnell.
“The official warned Eric that the fire could overrun the crew’s current position.”
“Eric copied that and said he was forming an escape plan for Granite Mountain.”
As TTWARE posted: ‘The crew was in the black and were in no danger of being overrun.”
As to the second post about Marsh ‘forming an escape plan for the GMHS,’ suggests to me that the GMHS had already left their perfectly good Safety Zone without a Lookout and without notifying anyone.’
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
July 25, 2016 at 9:51 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> “The official warned Eric that the fire could overrun
>> the crew’s current position.”
>>
>> “Eric copied that and said he was forming an escape
>> plan for Granite Mountain.”
>>
>> As TTWARE posted: ‘The crew was in the black and were
>> in no danger of being overrun.”
Yes. You know that. I know that. Lots of people know that.
But tell it to Brendan McDonough.
He COULD have written in his book…
“The official warned Eric that the fire could overrun the crew’s current position… but despite the fact that GM was in a perfectly SAFE ‘blacked out’ and previously burned area… Eric copied that and said he was forming an escape plan for Granite Mountain.”
But he didn’t.
He decided to leave that ‘already in the safe black’ detail OUT and let HIS ‘readers’ believe there was ‘danger’ lurking in that information coming from Air Attack Rory Collins and that might have been why Eric suddenly changed his mind about staying in the ‘safe black’.
People who READ THAT in Brendan’s book could easily say to themselves… “Oh… well… that explains a lot. Eric was being a good little Hotshot and was concerned for his men’s safety after that WARNING from the guy in the airplane”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> As to the second post about Marsh ‘forming an escape
>> plan for the GMHS,’ suggests to me that the GMHS had
>> already left their perfectly good Safety Zone without
>> a Lookout and without notifying anyone.’
Everyone ( including Brendan ) is putting this conversation between Air Attack Rory Collins and Eric Marsh in the 3:50 PM timeframe.
But NO ONE is being specific enough about it to say whether it (supposedly) happened right BEFORE or right AFTER the 3:50:08 PM Caldwell video and the RECORDED conversation between OPS1 Todd Abel containing the “Hunker and be safe” directive and the “we’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP” ‘promise’.
Base on the Air-To-Air channel recordings… if this ‘exchange’ between Rory Collins and Eric Marsh happened at all… it pretty much had to have happened just BEFORE Eric’s 3:50:08 PM exchange with OPS1 Todd Abel.
That’s because just 16 seconds after THAT radio exchange… Air Attack Rory Collins is heard ‘busy’ on the Air-To-Air channel having that conversation with Bravo 33’s Thomas French where Air Attack Collins is TELLING French to turn his attention now to the Yarnell side of the fire.
But at 3:50:08 PM… it’s pretty much been established that Eric Marsh had ALREADY left the ‘anchor area’ and was ALREADY hiking SOUTH on the two-track himself and ALREADY ‘scouting ahead to the Boulder Springs Ranch’ with Steed and the crew just ‘parked’ at the ‘final rest area’ waiting to hear back from Marsh at some future point about whatever was going to happen next.
So yea… the evidence is THERE that even when Marsh supposedly told Air Attack Collins he was (quote) “FORMING an escape plan for GM”… Eric Marsh was ALREADY “scouting ahead” to the BSR.
The ONLY people who were ever allowed to TALK to Air Attack Rory Collins were the SAIT people.
There ARE ‘notes’ from their conversation with Rory Collins in that SAIR ‘Investigative Notes’ document that was released AFTER the SAIR was published.
The following is the ONLY part of that interview that could possibly be construed to be ‘matching’ what the SAIR published… but it still bears no resemblance to what McDonough is now saying ( in writing ) that HE heard… and what HE is asking HIS readers to believe…
From PDF page 19 of the SAIT ‘Yarnell Investigation Notes’ ( YIN )
—————————————————————
SAIT Interview with: Rory Collins – Air Attack
LDF – Roseburg – 11:00 a.m. 7/13/2013
SAIT Interviewers: Jimmy Rocha, Jay Kurth, Mike Dudley, Jim Karels
Rory Collins is a Certified ATGS
Works for Douglas Forest Service as Protection Supervisor
15:30 – 15:45 The fire was headed for Yarnell moving fast to the south. They were getting retardant drops. Contacted Division A to tell them of fire condition and that they needed to move their rigs to a better location.
Q: Did he ( DIVS A ) say he was in good black?
A: NO. He said the other crew was in a good location in the black and they were headed back to the rigs.
—————————————————————
Followup…
Obviously the following excerpt from the SAIT ‘Interview nots’ from their one-and-only interview with the elusive Rory Collins has always been just one confusing mess..
————————————————————
Q: Did he ( DIVS A ) say he was in good black?
A: NO. He said the other crew was in a good location in the black and they were headed back to the rigs.
————————————————————
There is still almost NO TELLING what he was really trying to say with his ‘Answer’ to that question from the SAIT investigators.
Which CREW is he trying to say Marsh was even talking about?
The ‘other crew’ reference appears to be indicating ‘Blue Ridge’… but they were NOT ‘in the black’. Only GM was ‘in the black’ at the time this conversation supposedly took place.
But either way… the ‘key’ point here is that even what Rory Collins appears to have been telling the SAIT bears little resemblance to what Brendan McDonough now seems to be trying to say HE heard over the radio in this same timeframe.
ADOSH was NEVER allowed to interview Air Attack Rory Collins and even TRY to ‘clear up’ any of this IMPORTANT testimony.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
post on July 25, 2016 at 8:24 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> Isn’t there a conversation mentioned somewhere where Marsh
>> was advised the fire “was going to overrun the crew buggies?
>>
>> And doesn’t Marsh respond that he “has a plan” in response to that?
Yes. You are exactly right… and thanks for ‘pointing that out’.
( That’s why we talk about these things! )
A ‘similar’ ( actually, almost identical ) thing actually appeared on PDF page 28 of the original SAIR document… but ( as usual ) the SAIR gives absolutely NO indication where that ‘information’ they were printing in THEIR report was actually ‘coming from’…
SAIR – PDF page 28
—————————————————————————–
At about 1550, Air Attack tells DIVS A the fire is heading quickly toward Yarnell and could reach the town in one to two hours. He also says the Granite Mountain IHC’s crew carriers may be in the path of the fire. DIVS A acknowledges and tells Air Attack he has a plan to address this issue. Shortly after this, Air Attack leaves the fire because of duty time considerations.
—————————————————————————–
So, at first glance, that might APPEAR to be an ‘report’ that is ‘identical’ to what Brendan has just asserted in his new book… but it’s actually NOT.
There are significant ‘differences’ between this ‘blurb’ that appeared in the SAIR ( from an unnamed / unknown source )…. and what Brendan is now asking HIS ‘readers’ to believe he HEARD over the radio.
First off… it’s always been odd that the SAIT would use the phrase “fire moving QUICKLY towards Yarnell” and then, in the same breath, say that the same guy was then predicting a ‘one to two HOUR’ arrival time. Kinda weird.
Second… the SAIR blurb says that Air Attack was specifically mentioning that the CREW CARRIERS were in danger of being ‘overrun’… and that Marsh’s response was that he “had a plan to deal with THAT issue”. At 3:50…. this ‘plan’ would have been the already-agreed-to plan that Blue Ridge was going to help McDonough move the GM vehicles.
But now BRENDAN’S account of what HE heard ‘Air Attack’ saying is not ‘focused’ on the ‘Crew Carriers’ at all.
Brendan is specifically asking HIS readers to believe that what HE heard was Air Attack WARNING Eric Marsh ( and Granite Mountain ) about the chance of the fire ‘overrunning THEIR position…. where THEY were up there on the ridge”… and that Eric’s specific response was that he was now working on an ‘escape plan’ for ‘Granite Mouintain’ ( the CREW ) itself.
That’s a SIGNIFICANT ‘difference’ from what appears to be a ‘similar’ report in the original SAIR.
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> The crew was in the black and were in no danger of being overrun.
You know that. I know that… but tell it to Brendan.
HE is the one who is now attempting to tell his ‘readers’ that what HE heard over the radio was a direct cause-and-effect between something Air Attack was telling Eric Marsh… and Eric Marsh’s immediate ‘comeback’ being him ‘suddenly changing his mind’ about staying ‘in the black’ ( as he had just told OPS2 Paul Musser they were gojng to do )…. and he was now “working on an escape plan for GM”.
Again.. Brendan is now trying to ‘establish’ ( for posterity ) that what HE heard was the following…
1. Air Attack Rory Collins tells Marsh that the fire could overrun HIS ‘position’.
2. Eric Marsh ‘copies that’… and immediately tells Collins he is now working on an ‘escape plan’ for Granite Mountain themselves ( and NOT the Crew Carriers ).
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> Perhaps Brendan was so busy spinning weather that he mis-heard
>> the conversations mentioned above.
Perhaps… but now there is also the possibility that Brendan is finally “telling the truth” about SOMETHING… and that really is the way it was going down.
I’m not making any of this up.
See above. That really is a ‘direct quote’ from Brendan’s new book and it is exactly what HE is asking HIS readers to ‘believe’.
Maybe it was the SAIT and/or US Forestry ( Sic: Mike Dudley ) that just didn’t want to ‘print’ that Marsh’s decision to ‘leave the black’ had anything to do with what a Federal USFS employee ( Rory Collins ) had told him.
WTKTT,
Rory Collins was not a USFS employee. He is the North Unit Forester and works for the Douglas Fire Protection Association and contracted through the Oregon Division of Forestry (ODF)
Thank you. I stand corrected.
Yes… says pretty much what you just said at the top of the one-and-only interview anyone was ever allowed to have with this elusive ‘Rory Collins’ guy…
From PDF page 19 of the SAIT ‘Yarnell Investigation Notes’ ( YIN )
—————————————————————
SAIT Interview with: Rory Collins – Air Attack
LDF – Roseburg – 11:00 a.m. 7/13/2013
SAIT Interviewers: Jimmy Rocha, Jay Kurth, Mike Dudley, Jim Karels
Rory Collins is a Certified ATGS
Works for Douglas Forest Service as Protection Supervisor
15:30 – 15:45 The fire was headed for Yarnell moving fast to the south. They were getting retardant drops. Contacted Division A to tell them of fire condition and that they needed to move their rigs to a better location.
Q: Did he ( DIVS A ) say he was in good black?
A: NO. He said the other crew was in a good location in the black and they were headed back to the rigs.
—————————————————————
USFS or not… ADOSH was never allowed to ‘interview’ him.
Thomas French stated that this was his first time working in the Yarnell area. How much could that have contributed to the 40minute delay in his leaving the Peeple Valley to move to Yarnell?
Hi Diane,
There was a discussion of possible reasons for the delay in a past chapter. Here is a link:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-338157
I have been thinking for a long time here about posting what truly OLD SCHOOL is.
I started my Fire Carrier in 1961 4 years after the TEN STANDARD ORDERS were established.
I actually started learning about them from my Step Dad and a Engine Foreman who allowed me to sit in on training the summers of 1959 and 1960 in a little Forest Service compound in the Mountains on the Sequoia NF called Pine Hurst Hume Lake Ranger District. As you can imagine being a Teen Ager where your closest friend is 2 miles away I had to do my own thing.
Thus I asked to sit in on Those Fire training sessions at the station when I was 15 and 16.
The Foreman and the Crew were really great guys and kind of treated me like a little brother.
Any way back to Old School.
The Foreman was out of the Karen war and his reflection on the 10 Standard orders were more about war directives. The Ten Standard Orders were put together by not only Fir Fighters but Supervisors that had been in WWII and the Korean conflict. He referred to the orders as an engagement directive.
If you reflect on the military having young recruits required to memorize the Military rules.
He preached the same Memorize them train with them until they become imbedded in your mind.
The 10 safety rules will guide you no matter what else is going on around you.
The 13 situations will alert you to possible danger if they are entrenched in you mind you will have the extra ability to comprehend what is going on around you. I followed up on that with the first FMO I worked for who actually taught the same thing and I continued in that format.
In todays age you would say your brain would revert to a computer program when things started to change dramatically around you. In order to have that STOP LOOK EVALUATE you need to memorize, use and continually reflect on the Safety rules.
To say they are OLD or they are HILL BILLY means you have not studied or used them daily.
When for some reason Human factors, tired or disoriented, responding to unsafe orders the brain will always open the program to Safe procedures.
IT IS TRULY THAT SIMPLE.
I was taught every shift to go over the TEN STANDARD ORDERS before shift and during shift to reflect on them often.
I ask all Fire Fighters out there today do you follow without question the 10 and 18???????
Can you recite them word for word????
Are they implanted in your memory as your Safety directives?????
OLD SCHOOL FIRE FIGHTERS LEARNED IT USED IT AND TOUGHT IT OVER AND OVER AND OVER.
We became addicted to it and it became our simple Bible.
FIGHT FIRE AGGRESIVLY BUT PROVIDE FOR SAFETY FIRST—-AND HERE IS HOW THE TEN AND EIGHTEEN.
So many Fire Fighters before 1957 and after have lost their live because they did not follow the 10 and 18. That is indisputable.
KEEP ONE FOOT IN THE BLACK –BRING THE BLACK WITH YOU– FOLLOW THE 10 AND 18 –YOU WILL NEVER NEED A FIRE SHELTER.
When you put safety first you will go home every single time———————————–
W2?
Go Bob!?
Go Woodsman!
Right back at ya’, ARRRH TEEEEE ESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Haha! Remember, eventually everyone slips up. Good one.
RTS! RTS!! RTS!!! haha
Now answer my question from last night. Did any of the discussion we had of a planned fire shelter pimping publicity stunt by fire managers on the Butte fire come up in the recent staff ride? Don’t leave me hangin’, bro.
W2 (<——that's where you muffed it)
Watchdawg <————–that's the guy who got both eyes watching you, haha!
W, Woodsman,
You posted: “Did any of the discussion we had of a planned fire shelter pimping publicity stunt by fire managers on the Butte fire come up in the recent staff ride?”
Yes, it did come up at the Staff Ride Development session,however, mostly between us that knew about it.
The Organizing Committee Chairman tried his best to keep the sessions’ content relevant and of course, as much as possible in line with the official ‘Investigation’ Report.
That’s why I hope they edit very little. if any, of the videotaped sessions and stand discussions.
One of my favorites was when myself and another participant gave our input after everyone watched the Butte Fire Shelter video for the thousandth time in our careers.
Paraphrasing here: ‘This is the biggest piece of Forest Service propaganda that ever hit the streets and you people need to maintain a healthy dose of skepticism with any IMT or overhead you don’t know and trust.’
Woodsman
The one thing I can tell you about the Butte fire.
All and I mean all of the R4 type 1 Teams were totally pissed at what happened on this fire. which included most of the Forest FMO’s My own Supervisor who was a IC on one of the R4 teams was absolutely flaming. He called a meeting of all Fire staff and from what I herd raised the roof. He latter said he thought the whole thing was a stunt but could find no proof.
Thanks Cheerleader.
I forgot to mention that all those young FF I trained and hired over the years Some went on and stayed in Fire and I am proud of their achievements. They all survived the DRAGON.
A few even made it to a higher job and Grade than me. Some went to the BLM, LA County and Cal Fire, most to the FS.
One went to the Payson HS for 26 years.
Bob,
Is there anyone you can contact to get inside information on what pissed them off about Butte back then? Since it’s been 31 years maybe they’ll sing.
Thanks,
W-squared
They were pissed because there was no need to deploy.
the Overhead basically told the crews to deploy they were in a huge logging cut that had been improved with a Cat. The Crews did what they were told. It was then used as a promotion of the Shelters Safe Use.
The FMO’s on the Salmon and Challis were left trying to explain why. It was their suggestion they use the cut block as a SZ.
You want Bomb Proof It was without a doubt the best you will ever see bar none.
The Salmon Breaks are hell on wheels when it comes to Big Fire Spreads Steep and Heavy Fuels Local winds that can change and rise havoc with a active fire. But 3 crews in the middle of a half mile plus in diameter dirt area????
It was a pre planed SZ in advance. Way in advance like 24 hours.
W2,
Watchdog Woodsman = WW = W2 = 2W – W. Woodsman = Watchman W.
RTS,
Haha. Believe it or not I possessed the mental acuity to ‘crack the code.’ Translation – I know what you meant by W2.
Thanks for the insight on Butte. I’m still processing the possibilities of went actually happened & why that day. Find out who was on the board of directors at Anchor Industries, who their friends were, and start connecting dots. Although I think there’s more to it than $$. Something stinks.
W2
W. Woodsman,
You posted: “Believe it or not I possessed the mental acuity to ‘crack the code.’ Translation – I know what you meant by W2.”
Believe it or not I too possessed the mental acuity to ‘crack the code’ and realize you know what I meant by W2 = W² = W-Squared.
RTS,
We should form a special society or something then….for exceptionally brilliant minds. Just you and me, bro. Leading from the top!
If fire managers planned the event at Butte like you & others suspect, what do you think made them want to do it? I’m suggesting that they were promoting the fire shelters and you didn’t necessarily disagree. Since you were there and you’ve been in the game for so long, I wondered if you had some thoughts about that. I know I’ve already asked you that. I’m just trying to understand. It couldn’t just have been about $$, could it? The shelters DO cost upwards of $400 each now.
I mentioned acceptance of the fire shelters as a motivation as well. You know, getting firefighters to believe in them. Do you think that was part of it?
Thanks in advance!
Woodsman
Could be but no one I talked to made that connection and my Boss would have told me if he knew. He was not there
but on another Fire.
Because of the deployment the R4 IC’s called for a full round table review with Forest FMO’s and Regional staff.
My Boss worked from FF up including SUPT. for 5 years he through his carrier including IC for 6 years never had a Shelter use on his watch.
Bob,
If you can get me a copy of the unredacted minutes of that roundtable meeting and post it here, I’ll let you into me & RTS private club for exceptionally brilliant minds…..that is if RTS says it’s OK. We each have a 50% vote for new membership.
Thanks for the background info!
Woodsman
None that I know of by this time.
What ever they discussed was not part of the Deployment report.
I never saw any memos or directives from R4 or NIFC. After 31 years probably no paper trail left
Dale said they really did not change or create any new rules. More frustrating than any thing.
The biggest Shelter deployment in history and no real reason for it. He did say there were a few that never did deploy and had no problem.
Well…obviously I can’t join because I still can’t figure out WTF you two ladies are talking about.
Gary,
“The club” for genius minds is a made-up thing because RTS tried to explain something to me that is completely obvious. I said, “yeah, I have a working brain,I got it, bro.” and he said “Well, I got a working brain too.” So I suggested we form a special club for us 2 “geniuses.’ (it’s either that or whip em’ out again) The funny part came when I offered Iron Bob a membership slot into the group of geniuses – you know, “retired with a long ‘carrier’ Bob………..”Karen war’ in the 50’s Bob. That’s the funny part. I guess if I have to explain the humor, that should tell me something…
To boil it down:
1. Butte fire = multiple fuck-ups and management cover-up
2. Battlement creek = multiple fuck-ups and management cover-up
3. Yarnell Hill fire = multiple fuck-ups and management cover-up
4. list the others
It’s a pattern. The powers that be used lies and disinformation to cover-up what really happened. They rely on time to make it all go away & it works. They don’t give even 1 fuck about regular ol’ wff’s.
Oh, the other part, I was just fucking with RTS because I enjoy it. He’s a wealth of information and his experience is extremely helpful. It’s just when he slips up I can’t help myself to have fun with it. It’s sort of like when you walk into a bar full of active duty enlisted folks, the best thing to do is walk straight up the biggest baddest mofo you can find and punch him in the mouth…..26 year hs supe, so………there ya go.
He created a new user and acted as my cheerleader, which is a huge honor for me, and I thought it was funny.
So the question is: what can be done to break the cycle of the lying sacks of shit called fire management and their cover-up of tragedy fires? Is it inevitable under “the system” that we will lose some firefighters each year? While I find that totally unacceptable, the ‘powers that be’ view it as a cost of doing business. Hell, look at all the $$ that is made following a tragedy like Yarnell! Books, movies, statues, parking lots, trails, donations, justification for increased funding……………capital wise, killing firefighters has it’s perks. It’s fire management’s economic stimulus package.
Watchdawg F’in Woodsman
One more thing. It sounds like instead of just reacting to the fuck-up, management at Butte actually may have PLANNED to have a huge fuck-up that would solidify the use of fire shelters.
So, on all of these fires, which ones were “damage control” of circumstances and which ones were actually planned?
Dawg
Woodsman stated: He created a new user and acted as my cheerleader, which is a huge honor for me, and I thought it was funny.
TO TELL THE TRUTH show I just watched than saw your reply here so will the REAL cheerleader stand up.
IT WAS ME WOODSMAN not RTS-
you can email John Dougherty to confirm but I am honest- it was me.
Sorry but I enjoy your comments-
you remind me of this man we speak with over time on the aftermath of the YHF:
http://www.jumpingfire.com/author.html
you have a way I just felt need a cheer audience…it was not RTS…I own up to things in life and never let another take the fall…something some on the fire lines do not do-
Joy,
Well, then I’m truly not as smart as I think I am. Thanks. I got a chuckle out of it. I appreciate your ongoing passion for finding out the truth of the needless deaths of GM that day.
RTS: I apologize for accusing you of doing that. I hung my hat on you using W2 as my moniker and I was flat out wrong! Sorry. Even though I nitpick you, I do respect your accomplishments in wildfire.
Joy,
Muzzy made a good point down below. (even though he may or may not have been talking about me specifically) My language may shock people and I probably should tone it down. After years of dealing with management screw-ups on fires I have been on, it’s easy for missed to get angry! The more I learn about the pattern of mismanagement, over the years the more angry I get.
Joy & RTS: please accept my apologies.
Woodsman
Well…that was all pretty complicated although I do agree with what you said about RTS, here is what I wrote down below that I don’t want to get lost in the weeds.
.Gary Olson says
JULY 23, 2016 AT 9:56 PM
It isn’t for you because you are special, you earned it, you deserve it, you have gone where no man has gone before, serving more than 26 years as a hotshot superintendent. Do I have that right? 26 years as a hotshot, or 26 years as a hotshot superintendent?
It’s (almost) everyone else who DOES not deserve it who are the problems. Men like Darrell Willis who is also moonlighting with as a blood sucking tumor after already having double dipped and then triple dipped and now is hoping to quadruple dip.
I have told you before, you get a pass. And you thanked me then, and so no thanks this time is neccessary.
Reply
Gary Olson says
JULY 25, 2016 AT 7:29 AM
“In other words, you are a walking, talking encyclopedia of wildland firefighting knowledge, skills and abilities with a particular set of skills focused on WF safety and a national treasure who should share what you know with those who need or want to know it.”
And yes, I always enjoy reading about Bob’s carrier, I have been making a lot of notes from his posts over the years that I am going to plagiarize in my tome.
Korean war — Dam spell check
Thanks for the offer but I am not up to your intellect.
Did you mean to write, “Damn Wild Turkey?”
That’s alright, Bob, I had to leave the club myself due to poor performance, and I was a founding member! It’s now just the one with the guiness book of world’s record for number of consecutive years as a hotshot crewboss!
Somewhat irrelevant side note: I love my Career brand air conditioner – works great!
Woodsman
Well…I guess that leaves only ONE IM Mensa member…the ONE the ONLY…RTS!
Whoops, WTKTT wasn’t part of that particular discussion, but I am pretty sure he qualified to a member of the IM Mensa Club…so we have at least TWO.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
July 25, 2016 at 3:41 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Whoops, WTKTT wasn’t part of that
>> particular discussion, but I am pretty
>> sure he qualified to a member of
>> the IM Mensa Club…so we have at
>> least TWO.
I’m not really a ‘joiner’. Sorry.
LMFAO
Gary Olson says
JULY 25, 2016 AT 3:41 PM
Whoops, WTKTT wasn’t part of that particular discussion, but I am pretty sure he qualified to a member of the IM Mensa Club…so we have at least TWO.
MY REPLY: I thought WWTKTT is AI— is AI qualified to be a part of the IM Mensa Club?
You probably wouldn’t want to join any club that would accept you as a member?
Thank you.
You are all far TOO KIND.
I am definitely not in the Mensa class.
Yes, we have a big tent here at IM. We do not discriminate against Artificial Intelligence or anyone else. Even EN left of her own accord.
GARY SAID- Even EN left of her own accord.
MY REPLY:I was informed long ago she did not go on her own accord but was “blocked” so this is new details to me.
Watchful Woodsman,
You posted: “what do you think made them want to do it? I’m suggesting that they were promoting the fire shelters and you didn’t necessarily disagree.”
I have no idea really other than they really thought their harebrrained plan would work.
Until the Staff Ride Development Group, I did not realize there were 3 Spike Camps and we all got different briefings on August 29, 1985.
Ours was the helitorch several thousand acres all day to our south, and when it came out as a large fire whirl, we would hand ignite our 2700 acres of unburned Lodgepole Pine, and it would ‘slam together like a block burn and we could all go home’ plan.
Regarding: “… suggesting that they were promoting the fire shelters and you didn’t necessarily disagree.”
I don’t think they were promoting the shelters until AFTER the mass deployment. They were promoting other bags that day.
RTS,
Thanks for the followup. I’m lost now.
So the IMT’s stupid plan to helitorch at 1:30 pm broke loose, jumped the canyon, threatened multiple crews some of which had the foresight to get out of the way some didn’t, crews in perceived inadequate SZ’s were ordered to deploy, no one died, IMT decided to turn it into a shelter info-mercial, WO phoned Anchor Industries to order 300,000 more fire shelters and 600,000 in 1986?
That about right?
You said you & others believed they planned it all along. I’m trying to understand exactly what you mean by that.
Woodsy Guy
Watchful Woodsman,
You posted: “… helitorch at 1:30 pm broke loose, jumped the canyon …”
They helitorched MOST of the day with southwest/northeast aligned CANYONS, with diurnal southwest airflow, and at Trigger Point time (“4:00 or 20% humidity, whichever comes first, the fire will become very active”), the fire (“The Rhino” according to Branch Director Schindler) and stood up into threee separate columns, then one long, continuous column roaring up the slope toward us.
Yes, the IMT “they planned it all along.”
Gene Benedict, he IC,never returned to fire ever again after that.
The Air Operations? (and later IMT IC) Merrill Saleen told us at the Staff Ride Development Group that he was ABSOLUTELY convinced that there were numerous fatalities that day.
RTS,
Planned WHAT all along? To burn up as much lodgepole as they could in as short a period as possible to set some new world record? What?
Seriously, thank you
Owner & Proprietor of Morning Wood Lumber Co, LLC
**
** HALFWAY THERE
There was a ‘Halfway DONE’ party last night for the cast and crew of this “FILLUM” currently called “Granite Mountain” that is in its ‘principal photography’ phase over there in Sante Fe, New Mexico.
That matches previous reports that the ‘principal photography’ phase for this puppy would only last from the first week of June until sometime in September.
PUBLIC photo posted from the ‘party’ held at the ‘Palace Cafe’ there in Sante Fe…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BILGr3pB9xT/?taken-by=jonwad
Photo caption/text…
————————————————————————–
jonwad
Halfway mark party for filming Granite Mountain at the Palace Cafe Santa Fe.
Best cast and crew… well until they started singing.
#granitemountain #makingmovies #karaokefail
————————————————————————–
They ( the movie people ) only have the actual ‘Granite Mountain’ vehicles RENTED for a maximum of 120 days… at $45 per day, per vehicle… and that ‘rental contract’ started the first week of June, 2016.
Here is where that information ( and the general schedule/locations ) first appeared…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: ‘Granite Mountain’ hotshots movie begins filming in New Mexico today
Published: June 13, 2016 1 a.m
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2016/jun/13/granite-mountain-movie-begins-filming-new-mexico-m/
From that article…
NOTICE that the person who is ‘authorized’ to leave PUBLIC comments at the Prescott Daily Courier using the handle Rcadya does not appear to have fallen off any ‘turnip trucks’ lately…
———————————————————–
A Friday, June 10, news release states that the feature film “Granite Mountain” (previously known as “No Exit”) will start production today, June 13. Filming will take place in Santa Fe, Pajarito, White Rock, Nambe Pueblo, Los Alamos, Las Vegas, and Pecos, New Mexico.
The news release notes that “Granite Mountain” will employ 190 New Mexico crew members, 40 New Mexico actors, and about 1,300 New Mexico background talent. It is expected to film in New Mexico from June through early September.
The production will use the actual vehicles that the Granite Mountain crew used in their work. Prescott Fire Chief Dennis Light said this past week that the movie has leased four City of Prescott vehicles – two Hotshot buggies, a superintendent vehicle, and a pick-up truck – used by the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
The vehicles were leased by the movie production for 90 to 120 days at $45 per vehicle per day, Light said.
** PUBLIC COMMENTS
Comment from: Antinomies
Can’t wait to watch and find out what REALLY HAPPENED!
Hope profits go to destitute families of faĺlen!
Reply from: Rcadya:
Probably wrong on BOTH counts.
Comment from: ParkerAnderson
We should all be deeply offended that they are filming it in New Mexico instead of here.
Shows how much these particular filmmakers care, eh?
Reply from: Rcadya
Not sure of the wisdom of trying to shoot this opportunistic film in or around Prescott. With so many people still so caught up in this tragedy – may probably be wiser to make it elsewhere
Comment from: skizziks
I will be sure to MISS this movie.
Comment from: Jmrichards
I hope the movie people read The Fire Line by Fernanda Santos for a riveting understanding of what happened. You won’t be able to put the book down. The movie will never be able to do justice by these men and their families.
‘
Reply from: Rcadya
Curious??? Do we yet know EXACTLY who it was that told the hot shot group to move from SAFE GROUND to an area FILLED WITH FUEL? And why they followed these BAD directions… You like Santos book. Others found it a POTBOILER – and a way to make some money off of of a terrible tragedy. No accounting for opinions or taste. Room for all…
———————————————————–
Another PUBLIC photo from the ‘Halfway mark’ party in Sante Fe.
This one pretty much proves what the actor ‘Taylor Kitsch’ fanclub has been thinking for quite some time… that actor ‘Taylor Kitsch’ is playing deceased GM Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft.
The ‘identical mustache’ and the ‘identical tatoo copies’ on his arm seem to confirm that.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BIK5K0Igui8/
SIDENOTE: The girl in the photo is just an ‘extra’… and does NOT appear that she is the one playing Andrew Aschcraft’s wife Juliann in the film. The girl in the photo was first hired as just a ‘background’ extra but when they discovered they were ‘short a Hotshot girlfriend’ for the “Matt’s Saloon” party scene filmed Wednesday through Friday… she got ‘promoted’ to ‘Hotshot girlfriend’ ( but NOT to ‘Hotshot wife’ ). All of this is according to her OWN totally PUBLIC ‘Twitter’ feed.
It is not known WHICH deceased Hotshot she’s supposed to be the ‘girlfriend’ of/for.
for gary-
The photo used on that page is that one seen before showing a ‘mouse maze’ with ‘cheese’ in it. Forget the “rules of the game”… the mouse has simply BLASTED THROUGH all the walls of the maze just to get to the cheese as fast as possible.
And the caption reads…
“HOTSHOTS – If you don’t understand this… you’ve never met one”.
The ‘message’ being put forth by this “Hotshot Recruiting Poster” does seem clear.
RULES are for OTHER PEOPLE… not US.
We do WHAT we want, WHEN we want, to ‘get the CHEESE!’.
Only problem is… sometimes we get KILLED in the process.
Yes, that is what the poster seems to say. Thank you Joy. The hotshot culture is a double edged sword.
Or we have the ability to cut line from point A to B and accomplish the objective where others get stuck in the MAZE. By ability that includes Safety.
Gary– I thought you were once a hot shot you lost your edge in the BLM Law Enforcement.
If you do not understand the MAZE you do not understand HOT SHOTS.
Type One Crews do their job and accomplish their objectives. The MAZE has to do with work ethic, training, accomplishment and pride.
108 Hot Shot Crews Nation wide Man hours Yearly verses Injuries is a historic accomplishment.
I will say again My 2.5 years on a HS crew I never had a serious accident, Deployment or burn over. The Oak Grove Hot Shots, Chilao hot shots, or the Sawtooth Hot shots that I worked with over their years as crews had great safety Records, as did Many Many other crews. My 33 years having crews under me on the line 1000 fires No Deployments no Serious injuries. The vast Majority of my friends accomplished the same.
It is not uncommon when safety is the first priority.
Man Hours worked verses Injuries–serious Injuries–Fatalities is a critical part of a hazardous occupation.
Falling trees Rolling Rocks Vehicle accidents Air craft accidents Heat stroke Hart attacks normal work in a environment in the Wild lands creates its own hazards not including FIRE.
Many years it is the standard accidents and not Burn Fatalities that are higher numbers. Those accidents are preventable as well. They happen in all areas of the work environment both Private and Fire Fighting.
Human Factors cause more accidents if Safety is not a priority.
Since my HS years HS Crews Have Doubled in Numbers yet the Fatality rate from 2 to 19 has occurred on a average 20 year bases Not Yearly.
Three of the large Fatalities of HS Crews were all Predictable and could have been avoided. Loop Fire, Storm King Mountain, Yarnell.
Human Factors that got in the way of SAFETY. The 10 and 18.
how Bob explained it is how I saw it when I posted it- sorry Gary 🙁
too many rollovers for you 🙂
Bob and Joy are right and WTKTT is wrong and I rolled over too easy.
The poster say’s that hotshots will accomplish the objectives there are assigned in spite of any obstacles in their way.
It does not say there were any rules on how they get from point a to point b that were broken, or that they didn’t chew through the walls in a safe manner.
That hotshot mouse did what was important, he/she got to the cheese and did so while still being healthy (more or less) and alive. And should be a roll model for all of us.
I think Bob, Joy, and Gary are correct here. I looked up the website for http://wildlandendurance.com and found info about a course of some kind to teach training techniques to WLFFs. In a video, the course leader tells potential participants that they must already know the 10&18 as a prerequisite. I can’t tell if this is really for WLFFs or is for cubicle jockeys looking for the next fitness trend.
Muzzy,
You posted: “I can’t tell if this is really for WLFFs or is for cubicle jockeys looking for the next fitness trend.”
Probably a lot of the WFF training and a little of the next fitness trend.
Those guys featured as instructors and staff are legitimate.
And well trained WFF’s have been referred to as ‘ENDURANCE ATHELETES’ who engage in arduous work throughout a long work shift..
This is a link to a 2009 NWCG report titled: “Fitness and Work Capacity” PMS 304-2. A very comprehensive and helpful publication.
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/products/pms304-2.pdf
We had Hot Shots who went into the Marines and said our Physical Training program was tougher.
Navy SEALS are still the baddest MF’ERS on God’s [mostly] Green Earth and they make really good Hot Shots.
Reply to Gary Olson post on July 24, 2016 at 2:07 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Bob and Joy are right and WTKTT is wrong and I
>> rolled over too easy.
>>
>> The poster say’s that hotshots will accomplish the objectives
>> there are assigned in spite of any obstacles in their way.
>>
>> It does not say there were any rules on how they get from
>> point a to point b that were broken, or that they didn’t chew
>> through the walls in a safe manner.
>>
>> That hotshot mouse did what was important, he/she got to
>> the cheese and did so while still being healthy (more or
>> less) and alive. And should be a roll model for all of us.
Well… since that now-often-seen ‘Hothshot Recruiting Poster’ IS presenting itself as one of those “To those who understand no explanation is necessary and to those who don’t no explanation is possible” sorta things… it DOES leave itself ‘open to interpretation’.
Sort of a “Rubin’s Vase” thing.
At FIRST glance… some will see a VASE… but some will see a FACE.
Depends how you ‘interpret’ the ‘mouse maze’ itself.
1. As the ‘rules’ and ‘procedures’ that have been dearly paid for already with OTHER lives and are SUPPOSED to be followed in order to obtain the goal and ‘go home safely’.
** OR **
2. As some worthless entanglement of indecision that is PREVENTING one from reaching a goal and SHOULD just be ‘blasted through’.
Personally ( and yes, that means only speaking for myself ), with regards to a Hotshot Crew that never came home from an assignment on June 30, 2013… when they SHOULD have… I believe ( in that particular case ) it’s the former.
By the way… I have enhanced the poster and it’s hard to tell… but I cannot detect a lookout, and I believe the ‘Hotshot mouse’ is NOT wearing his/her gloves and DOES have his/her sleeves rolled up.
DO YOU SEE ANY FIRE OR BURNED AREA???????????????
No matter how thick no matter how tall the fire line will be cut to control the fire and the objective met with Safety.
The implied meaning is HS cut line dig dirt cutline until the fire is controlled. Ask your self what would a bulldozer do??????
Man power can do the same.
Its not a mind maze its a work ethic.
As I said above… it’s a ‘Rubin’s Vase’ sort of thing.
Some people will see the ‘maze’ itself as one thing, others as another.
You are right… seeing the ‘maze’ as the ‘fireground’ itself is yet just another ‘interpretation’.
For anyone… From time to time I up sell or plug one of my joys.. Today it is the great stuff at thrive…
http://thrv.me/oqzQr5
Also if you have throbbing pain or arthritis… i placed blue lily organic ground ginger root and each hour nothing until fourth hour so I took the stuff and placed in trouble area and taped it up and let the day happen and by the time it worked I forgot I put it on area…yeah…natural pain relief…
Well about the new fire that the local fire department set a burn out operation. Was it necessary. Here is a cowboy, miner, logger opinion. Like Putnam, I have a bat hide or two, in the same field.. The cowboy side of me says these fellows got accolades like they saved the town and I say bullshit. I was here the whole time and the wind never changed and there were no thunderstorms threatening and the fire was headed to the east and away from Yarnell that it was totally unnecessary to have a burn out. It did add to the fire situation and burn a few out buildings and give the locals a nice write up as if they did something good. If burning up the telephone poles and obstructing communications and cell towers is a good thing give them a gold star. But that fire was over the hill a mile or so and would never reach Yarnell unless God sent in a hell of a thunderstorm and the weather men said God would not do that.
I am beginning to think that anything that fire fighters do is a heroic act. Well the Dollar Store lost a hell of a bunch of inventory due to electric off and so did locals. Do you get an award for destroying that shit==a few million to replace– but if a FF–heroic action even if unnessary.
I am keeping my mind open on this issue until I also hear from the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker.
are you speaking with an open mind “old schoo”l:
because those fellas do not have a clue what they did then has indeed got them in this boat-
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/1a/f6/9b/1af69bc42ada45611ff27599ec9ed188.jpg
or modern new way of things, Gary:
where we can just butcher the TRUTH to meet our needs:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/13/1a/62/131a62050fe63d25688596f079cd3dc6.jpg
Yes, I was going the the first way, the old school ones.And I was just trying to be funny by word playin’ off of Charlie beings a cowboy, miner, logger. My sense of humor is an acquired taste and very few people can acquire that particular taste.
Talk about anger and obsession–that the facts of the reasons for the deaths has been covered up so well under the guise of heroism. Seventeen souls lost and no justice to the reason for their deaths is good reason for anger. Now we have a movie that is going to give use talk about the people but not address the real issues of negligence that killed those 17. This movie will be puke, and those that make it are cowards. They play the money game, yet will not adhere to the real truth.
This though is the new world, real people and false intentions. The truth would save lives but would it cash in for the players? I think it would, but so called sensitivity issues which really is another smoke screen to hide the facts. Lets hope Gary Olson does soon finish his book–fresh air of truth–the real reason 17 young souls died.
Unfortunately…I don’t think soon is in the equation. I think we are still in the “might” category.
And by the way. There wouldn’t be anything in my book that has not been dissected on this thread, it will never be anything more than a organized, linear, sequential, arrangements of the relevant issues to this trajectory so that someone who had NOT participated in this thread can follow and understand what happened.
What is really holding me back is the belief that everyone who really wants to know what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire have already been reading this blog, just hitting it several times a day to see if there are any updates.. I think it has a very low readership.
I am interested in air attack’s influence on this situation.
Apparently Granite Mountain was assured when they went into Unburned fuel to assist in Yarnell that they would have air coverage yet AA stayed in People’s Valley long after they were no longer needed there and requested to be in Yarnell area. When AA finally showed up it was too late to be of help to Granite Mountain . Since Willis was in charge of structures in People’s Valley at that time did he influence AA to continue dropping retardant there rather than allow AA to fly to Yarnell?
Diane,
Thank you for your thoughts on AA. I really think you are hitting on something important here. It’s an area of the fire investigation that merits serious inquiry. While there are many who say it doesn’t matter what was promised (& they are technically correct) the crew leadership screwed up by relying on it…….I am of the belief that there remains much more to the story. In order to understand the full context you need all of the details to paint the entire picture with the most accuracy.
Very good post. This has been talked about before. I believe it’s very important to understanding and I hope WTKTT & others can help develop the concepts you are talking about.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Thank you for your respectful response to my comments.
As a retired teacher with no experience in the world of firefighting I have been reluctant to offer my thoughts.
I appreciate your encouragement and will continue to explore what could have happened to Granite Mountain on June 30,2013.
Diane,
You are on the right track, so keep at it.
What you lack in WF experience, you make up for with research skills from your teaching and education background.
Diane,
I would echo RTS sentiment. I don’t know how much you’ve read about fire, so please excuse me if this is presumptuous.
If you want a quick catch-up about fire in the wildland, I would suggest John Maclean’s book, “Fire on the Mountain” which analyzes the South Mountain Fire in 1995, in which 14 young hotshots, smokejumpers, and helitacks were lost. They, at least, we’re trying to escape, albeit too late. To read the most beautiful book ever written about wildland fire, read Norman Maclean’s, “Young Men and Fire.” Written by the same man who wrote “A River Runs Through It,” it is how I got interested in wildland fire. I would loan you my copy, but I loaned it out a while ago and can’t remember who it was.
I came here a few months ago, mostly with questions, and they don’t seem to mind. I’ve learned a lot since then, but I still have questions, so if you ask a few, I won’t look so pesky!
Reply to Diane lomas post on July 25, 2016 at 9:13 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> I am interested in air attack’s influence on this situation.
Diane…. see a LONG reply that was posted up above as a new ‘parent commen’ so it would have more ‘column space’ for some ‘transcripts’ and whatnot.
Just click the following link and you will ‘JUMP’ directly to the response up above in this same ‘Chapter’…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-342822
SIDENOTE: If you ever want to do this yourself and ‘refer’ to some other comment either in the ‘same’ or a ‘different’ chapter of this ongoing discussion… all you have to do is ‘right click’ the DATE on any particular posting and then pick the ‘Copy link location to clipboard’ option. That gives you a direct ‘jump link’ to that particular forum comment which you can then ‘paste’ into any other ‘comment’.
Gary says, “What is really holding me back is the belief that everyone who really wants to know what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire have already been reading this blog, just hitting it several times a day to see if there are any updates.. I think it has a very low readership.”
I wouldn’t be too sure. In general, the lurker to poster ratio is like the iceberg or roach rule, less than 10% are visible. This is good to keep in mind when you FF types are “alone” on the blog. Remember the delicate dispositions of the little old ladies who don’t appreciate the…er…rowdy discussion.
As for interested people just following along, that’s not so easy. This blog is hard to read, requiring a real commitment, plus, ideas change as new information arises. How many people have the background or motivation to learn all the ins and outs of DIVS vs. OPS vs. FBAN? BIA vs. BLM vs. USFS. SAIR vs. ADOSH. You said it yourself, an alphabet soup. I still have lots of basic questions about how this stuff is usually done, to assess how much of what happened at the YHF was just SNAFU and how much was truly aberrant.
I certainly intend to buy any authoritative book on the subject of the YHF. I’d also be happy for a CD of the source material that allows me to put my finger on any of it at will. The main thing is that it can’t be too “inside baseball” or people will get left in the dust, and the tone of outrage will need to be muted. It has to be objective. IOW, filters ON.
Yes, I do have a tendency to forget that not everyone who reads this blog appriecates my “back of teh hotshot bus humor or attitude and I have been working on cleaning it up lately.
And it is hard to follow, that would be the value of a book on the subject, it is hard to sort through about 25,000 comments and follow a logical narrative. Which is why I would like to write one, but as I keep saying, it is hard enough just to be me on any given day without any added pressures, but I am trying.
And yes, you are probably somewhat right about the readership although when I track it now sometimes, I seems like I always come up with about 1000, and I know I can check it as many as four times a day to see what’s new (save all of the “you need to get a life” comments, this is now part of my life since I have become a serial blogger) so I assume a daily readership of somewhere around 250 but that might be way off.
I am always pleased when someone special gives us a shout out like Josh Brolin did recently when he was giving JD a hard time, I almost went viral on Mr. Brolin and then I remembered how he was in, “No Country For Old Men,” and I just said, “What the hell, he is just under some bad influences by a bunch of round hats and WF wannabe’s.” So I didn’t go off on him.
And FYI…in our heyday we were logging more than 30,000 hits a day, so I am comparing now to then for my “low readership” opinion.
Although I also should say I really don’t know how the hit counter works? Maybe it doesn’t record subsequent hits from each viewer?
I do know that my web site analytical tool only records “unique” viewers, so each person just gets counted once. So maybe our viewership is 1000. In any case, it is way down from where it used to be “back in the day.”
And I shouldn’t even have said, “person” I should have said, IP, so there could be multiple viewers per computer address…I don’t know!
Gary:
RE: Yes, I do have a tendency to forget that not everyone who reads this blog appriecates my “back of teh hotshot bus humor or attitude and I have been working on cleaning it up lately.
Yes, but you are not the only one (eyes on you, Woodsman!). If y’all don’t behave, you won’t be able to sit next to each other any more.
But more than the questionable humor, this subject needs some organization and explanation geared to the newbie but informed by WLFFs who are aware of how the system works, what’s normal, and even how these “investigations” are fictionalizations behind the cover of respect for the dead.
In many ways, this is the tale of many fires, much waste, and a closed culture. We need to retool the whole system, but first, the citizenry needs to learn about how it works now, and how our own ignorance and unreasonable demands have set the stage for these problems. I used to blame the East Coast orientation of the country for much of this. My time in the West, though, has shown me that very few people understand the first thing about how are forests are managed, care not one whit about the hazards of the WUI until it’s nipping at their back yards.
It’s a new world, between population increases in the wildland, global warming, a more scientific understanding of the natural role of fire in the West, and we all need to understand it. That’s your job, Gary. Get on it t!
What? Now that’s some total bullshit uncalled-for crap, right there!!! How am I supposed to get into real trouble being separated from my Ye Olde Codger Yet Magnificent Bastard Brother From Another Mother Broheim, Gary?
Kidding, of course.
You have you understand some things, (and I don’t mean that you have to agree with it.) Men like me and Gary are not the easiest to be around sometimes. (I will say Gary’s way worse than me! haha) I make my living as a forest technician. I also made my living as a ground pounder. If you’re motivated and have leadership qualities despite the fact that you can be somewhat ‘intense’, ‘very intense,’ you’ll move up in fire but you’ll always be a worker at heart. I liked being the ground pounder and doing the hard work. It was honest and you can find out just exactly what you are made of. Moving up in the non-fire side has been difficult because there’s my way and the wrong way. (Yes, I know now that there may be another way – OK?)
Gary has become less destructive as he’s gotten older I’m sure and the same fate probably awaits me. Technicians do the work that nobody else wants to do or is capable of doing. I’m not exactly in touch with my feelings and if it’s bullshit I hear, I call it out. I have some stories about what I’ve told managers over the years that were blunt & truthful. I can’t tell you because they are so off-the-charts, I would be identified.
While I hold onto my ideals, I have sacrificed career growth. It can make you bitter. I’ve struggled with that. I probably could use anger management therapy but I’d inevitably just get kicked out of the class because I would tell the instructor they were full of crap.
The funny thing is, when the going gets tough and despite the fact that management finds your very existence repulsive……..the phone ALWAYS rings. Somehow all of that goes away in an instant and I’m the guy for the job.
So yes, Gary and I are like lost brothers who if they ever got together in their younger days, would more than likely have set new records for trouble, that’s just they way it is. I’ll make an effort to tone it down but you have to understand that some of us just fall into the rougher section of humanity. (In the maze Joy posted, when I was younger, not only would I have busted down the walls and gone straight for the cheese, after eating it me & my crew would have destroyed the rest of the walls to be sure and then located a whole tribe of whores and the cache of grog.)
I’ll end by stating that I’m in no way a victim. Well, maybe I’m a victim of myself but I can sleep at night.
Woodsman
Geez, Woodsman, I was just trying to rattle your chain! But I get the inverse relationship between sticking with ideals and getting along to get ahead. I’m sure you’re doing it right. And trust me, I have been around prickly guys like you all my life and it is my favorite company. Not easy, but fun. I’ll stop poking at the bears.
Muzzy,
I was just writing it to have a good time with it although I guess it did end up like ‘confessions of a serially disgruntled low-level employee…..wait, what? There’s humor in there if you look hard enough. Whores! I said whores! Oh wait, am I not supposed to say whores anymore? Please don’t tell me I have to give up whores too…
I meant to thank you for bringing up Butte. I had more I wanted to learn about that and I did.
It’s all good! Thanks!!
Woodsman
“Please don’t tell me I have to give up whores too…”
No, you don’t have to give up whores, you just have to stop talking about whores.
“No, you don’t have to give up whores, you just have to stop talking about whores.”
You just mean here in this forum, right? Well……I’ll give it a shot…………not gonna be easy though…
DriftWood
Whoa…this rant really summed up my carrier as well! Thanks for saving me the typing.
I saw what you did there! LMFAO!!
Woodpile
I am trying.
**
** MCDONOUGH – AS LOOKOUT
NOTE: Continuation of a thread from down below about McDonough and WHY he might have been ‘chosen’ to be the ‘lookout’ that day… when he ended up reporting to ADOSH, and in his own for-profit BOOK, that the assignment became ‘pointless’ when there was nothing he was able to report all day that Marsh and Steed weren’t already seeing for themselves BEFORE he could even report it.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> There absolutely was A LOT he could see that was blind to Marsh and Steed,
>> and that’s why he was down there. “BOTH Marsh and Steed” could NOT see
>> the bottom/underslung portion of the fireline the GMHS was working below
>> the them. That portion could ONLY be seen from below, from McDonough’s position.
I still agree with you on that ( you can’t see ‘under’ something if you are sitting on ‘top’ of it )… but by all accounts and from Brendan’s testimony to both ADOSH *and* in his for-profit BOOK… that didn’t appear to have been a big concern to anyone.
The ONLY things Brendan talks about doing from down there on that mound was watching for ‘flare-ups’ in the DISTANCE ( to the north where the fireline actually WAS ) and for weather changes in the DISTANCE ( coming from the NORTH ).
These are the things that Brendan was saying Marsh and Steed could always ‘see’… all day long… even BEFORE Brendan ever had a chance to report anything.
Whatever ‘undersling’ might have been going on ( if any ) didn’t appear to even be part of the situation with regards to where GM was working that day.
>> RTS said
>>
>> There is also the possibility that some other GMHS was always or most often
>> used as Lookout and that particular day, Marsh and/or Steed decided to
>> replace him with McDonough because they wanted to ‘gig’ this guy somewhat
>> and because McDonough was sick and/or hungover.
There is actually a piece of ‘evidence’ which has always been ‘sitting there’ in the public
record that totally supports what you are saying.
It appeared in the SAIT ‘Interview Notes’ for their interview with Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown, Cory Ball and Travis Fuller.
In MOST places in the SAIT ‘Interview Notes’ from their ‘Blue Ridge’ interview it is fairly impossible to tell WHO is actually ‘saying’ some of the things the ‘notes’ are reporting, since it all became this huge mish-mash of disjointed quotes from the interview…
…but in the following case… we know EXACTLY who was ‘speaking’.
It was Blue Ridge Assistant Superintendent Trueheart Brown.
He is talking about something he apparently heard Eric Marsh say during their 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM face-to-face meeting up on the ridge. Brown and Brian Frisby were the only ‘Blue Ridge’ Hotshots who ‘attended’ that ‘face to face’ up there on the ridge.
The NOTES from that part of the SAIT “Blue Ridge” interview are as follows…
——————————————————————————-
B & T ( Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ) went on the razor ( their Polaris Ranger UTV )
to meet up with Eric and Jesse in the saddle. They mentioned they too had bad briefing,
bad radios…
Eric asked for cubies, Gatorade and BR says ok and gives it to them.
Eric mentioned they have a GO-TO LO ( Lookout ) but lets send Brendan
down and Brian says he can hop in with us.
——————————————————————————-
“Eric mentioned they have a GO-TO LO ( Lookout ) but lets send Brendan down”
So there is Blue Ridge Hotshot Assistant Superintendent Trueheart Brown testifying that he HEARD Eric Marsh TELL THEM that they ‘normally’ have a GO-TO LOOKOUT ( who is NOT Brendan McDonough )… but at that particular time Eric Marsh has decided he wants to swap out ‘Brendan’ for the normal GM GO-TO Lookout and send Brendan down INSTEAD.
We still don’t know the REASON why Marsh and/or Steed might have wanted to get Brendan off the fireline and down where he could just ‘rest’. It still could be that he was ‘still not well’ and/or totally spent and/or hungover and unable to continue working with the rest of the men… or something else might have been going on whereby Marsh/Steed felt it best to get McDonough AWAY from the others for the rest of the afternoon.
WTKTT,
You posted: “… you can’t see ‘under’ something if you are sitting on ‘top’ of it … that didn’t appear to have been a big concern to anyone.”
This concerns me then and suggests that the GMHS may have been more cavalier and careless than I thought.
You also posted that BRHS Foreman True Brown overheard: “Eric mentioned they have a GO-TO LO ( Lookout ) but lets send Brendan down.”
This was also second-hand information from others as well and that’s why I cited the “Arizona Rule 803, Hearsay exceptions; Availability of declarant immaterial.”
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 23, 2016 at 3:35 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> You posted: “… you can’t see ‘under’ something if you are sitting
>> on ‘top’ of it … that didn’t appear to have been a big concern to anyone.”
>>
>> This concerns me then and suggests that the GMHS may have been
>> more cavalier and careless than I thought.
I’m sure any lookout knows to keep an ‘eye’ on what is happening ‘below’ a crew… but for the sake of clarity… all I have been trying to say is that Brendan himself makes NO mention of that being one of the things he WAS doing after they sent him down there to that ‘lookout’ mound. ALL of his ‘testimony’ ( and his own for-profit BOOK accounts ) suggest that his ONLY real focus was “off to the NORTH”, where the fireline actually WAS, at that point, and what was happening ‘out there’ to the NORTH.
Keep in mind that at the very same moment Brendan was even just ‘arriving’ there on his lookout mound ( right around 12:45 PM ) is the same time that ‘Granite Mountain’ took their ‘Lunch Break’ up above him. Brendan says he had his ‘lunch’ right after arriving at the top of the lookout mound and says that’s when Granite Mountain broke for lunch as well. They sat right up there on the slope at the end of whatever line they had built ( only about 100 yards by then ).
It is ALSO the same exact time that ‘Air Attack’ Bravo 3 ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) were now taking their own ‘full recon pass’ around the fire after having arrived at NOON and first worked with SPGS2 Darrell Willis making what proved to be useless retardant drops around the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’.
Warbis and Lenmark testified that DURING that ‘recon trip’ they took all AROUND the area ( circa 12:45 PM ) is when they became SURE that “Granite Mountain” was ( their words ) “out of the game” and so much so that Warbis and Lenmark said they were convinced Granite Mountain was now just ‘staged’ there in the BLACK up at that anchor point and waiting for someone to give them some other non-worthless assignment.
Warbis and Lenmark said there was NO FIRE ACTIVITY at all there where Granite Mountain was ( in their minds ) ‘staged’ circa 12:45 PM.
So yea… a lookout is supposed to watch the ‘fire below’… and watch for ‘flare ups’ ‘there that could threaten any crew working ‘above’…. but it sounds like circa 12:45 PM, when Brendan finally even first got into his ‘lookout position’…. there was little to no chance of that even being a ‘factor’ over there on the ridge where GM was now “sitting on the slope and just having lunch”.
If keeping an eye on the ‘fire below’ had been any real concern to Steed and Marsh…. the time to have been concerned was earlier that morning when they STARTED working that area.
As Joy’s photos show…. in the MORNING…. there WAS still some ‘fire’ there along the slope near the anchor point.
But ‘Granite Mountain’ worked that area until NOON before ( apparently ) even thinking they needed a designated ‘lookout’ somewhere other than where they were actually working.
It all pretty much adds up to there having to have been some OTHER reason to just NOT send the usual desginated ‘GO-TO Lookout’ down to that mound and to ‘swap out’ and just get Brendan ( specifically ) away from the others for the afternoon than any REAL daunting concerns about any ‘underslung’ fire being any threat at all.
Stand by for another post that also shows Brendan ‘testifying’ ( in his own new book ) that WHILE he and GM Hotshots were having ‘lunch’ ( starting at 12:45 PM ), Brendan heard something about Marsh telling Steed and GM to NOT go ‘any further’ with their ‘linework’ when they finished lunch.
Brendan now seems to be saying that Eric Marsh ( DIVSA ) himself realized even as early as 12:45 PM that day that what GM was doing was pointless… and that he actually told them as early as 12:45 PM to just ‘give up’ on it and just ( after they finished eating lunch ) do no more ‘direct attack’ and just go BACKWARDS and clean up whatever line work they had done BEFORE Lunch.
Followup….
There is even actual PHYSICAL evidence that backs up what Brendan is now saying in his for-profit BOOK.
In ALL of the MAPS that appeared even in the original SAIR document… they have a ‘green line’ drawn going northeast and away from the anchor point which supposedly represents all the ‘completed handline’ done by GM up there that day.
At the northeast END of that ‘green line’ is where they ALSO show a big RED DOT that says ‘LUNCH SPOT’.
They ( SAIT investigators ) actually DID find some ‘Sardine cans’ and ‘MRE wrappers’ and other crap out there right at the END of any physical evidence of any ‘line building’ there on that slope.
THAT is the ACTUAL ‘Lunch Spot’ for GM. At the northeast END of any of the line building they ever accomplished on that slope that day.
Many people still call that spot where the men assembled after ‘tools up’ later that day, and where Christipher MacKenzie shot his photos and videos, the ‘Lunch Spot’… but that has NEVER been the case.
The ACTUAL ‘Lunch Spot’ was about 150 yards northeast of there and out there at the very end of any physical evidence of any line building on the slope.
So that actually ‘matches’ what Brendan is only NOW saying ( in his BOOK ).
That WHILE they ‘broke for lunch’ starting at 12:45 PM… they were told to not go any further… and that when they ‘finished’ their lunch to just start working BACK to the southwest and BACK towards the ‘anchor spot’ and just ‘improve’ whatever pitiful amount of line they had already built PRIOR to ‘Lunch’.
WTKTT,
Thanks for the details.
You posted: “It all pretty much adds up to there having to have been some OTHER reason” for McDonough as a lookout “than any REAL daunting concerns about any ‘underslung’ fire being any threat at all.”
I agree with you on the ulterior motive for McDonough being chosen as Lookout.
I take issue with the rest of it.
Several of the Fire Orders and LCES come to mind. F/O #3 – Base all actions on current and EXPECTED fire behavior. F/O #5 Post lookouts when there is POSSIBLE danger.
There is ALWAYS latent heat in the surface litter underneath the brush that can quickly become a threat by getting up into the canopies and taking off.
Good, competent WFF’s ALWAYS post a Lookout.
WTKTT,
You posted: “[McDonogh] his ONLY real focus was “off to the NORTH”, where the fireline actually WAS, at that point, and what was happening ‘out there’ to the NORTH.”
The GMHS above in the good black, had the best vantage point of anyone on the YH Fire AND the best Safety Zone of anyone on the YH Fire.
The GMHS overhead should have gotten him out of his touchy area as soon as the fire burned through the retardant line visible in one of the GMHS photos.
I agree… and so did the Arizona Department of Occupational Safety and Health… who were legally charged with investigating that entire Arizona Forestry workplace.
From the top of the ADOSH ‘Inspection Narrative’, which was the basis for them issuing HISTORIC citations and fines ( the most they were allowed to by LAW ) against Arizona Forestry and ALL of the ‘supervisors’ who were running that ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ workplace…
Among many other things…. the failure of management to make sure Brendan was getting out of harm’s way in a ‘safe’ timeframe was specifically mentioned…
———————————————————-
When the employer KNEW that suppression of extremely active chaparral fuels was ineffective, and that the wind would push active fire towards non-defensible structures, firefighters downwind were NOT promptly removed from exposure to smoke inhalation, burns and death: ( 23-403(A) ).
…
…
Citation (b) – On June 30, from and after 1530, one member of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew that continued to serve as a lookout was exposed to smoke inhalation, burns and death by a rapidly progressing wind drive wildland fire.
———————————————————-
NOTE: Brendan’s ‘account’ of his own ‘harrowing’ departure from his lookout mound in his new for-profit BOOOK now totally supports this original ADOSH workplace safety violation citation.
Brendan, one whose family must be from Ulster. Go along with the crowd that fucks you–even if they kill millions.
Whoaaaaa now…this is a new twist. An analogy with sectarian overtones of violence from “The Troubles.”
I thought the Donut issue was settled in that Donut was too hung over and sick to be able to productive working line. Seems that was the consensus. Donut had the luck of the Irish that day, and seems the leprechaun is following him despite his lack of good sense as a wild land fire fighter. I haven’t shed no tears for him as I have for all the others–I just do not buy his PTSD thing and his refusal to tell the truth from the beginning. Very shady fellow as far as I can estimate. But let the world boo hoo him–shit he deserves some kind of recognition for being such a dumb fuck as far as wild land fire fighting safety is concerned, yet getting through alive. That Blue Ridge guy, Brian Frisby, if he has not been awarded a medal of honor for saving Donut then he definitely deserves one–one of the few on that fire that deserved any kind of commendation.
Charlie,
You posted: “I thought the Donut issue was settled in that Donut was too hung over and sick to be able to productive working line.”
Nope, there was more to it than that. See WTKTT’s posts which verify what I heard from others second hand.
About Donut–I did ask Norb, a man of long experience heading wild land crews–would you have Donut as a lookout knowing his qualifications. His answer was definitely not because of his lack of experience. The last thing you want watching out for you is a fellow who thinks the safety rules are Hillbilly–Norb told me the man looking out for you better have long time experience with wild fires. To put Donut there would not agree with Norb’s definition of a lookout.
But if you look at the GMHS crew leaders, they figured they did not need a lookout—they could move their crew against a fire without one and did.
Did GMHS make the correct choice in selecting a lookout and the lookouts location? The location he was in seems like it was absolutely useless to make sure the crew was safe. Maybe it was do to the fact that he was not the best choice to serve as a lookout on a very active fire day. In my experience on a Region 3 HS crew only the most experienced firefighters were lookouts during very active fires. They also were lookouts on the first days of the assignments no matter the fire conditions. These lookouts were senior crew members and even sometimes the squadies had to be lookouts. Those guys knew what they were looking for and also selected the best vantage point to see fire activity. When guys like McDonough (3 years exp.) were assigned the role of lookout it was when fire activity was low. If there was a need for training on bigger assignments the seniors or squadies would supervise the younger lookouts. That was only if the crew could spare 2 lookouts. If GMHS made the decision to make McDonough the lookout only because he was sick then that was on of the first of many bad decisions.
In regards to what the crew did after lunch. I’m going to play the woulda, coulda, shoulda, game. How much work did the crew accomplish after lunch? I would say very minimal. This would have been the best period of time to re-assess and possibly talk about bumping the buggies and possibly even the crew? What was the point of sitting up on the ridge for over 3 hours with very little progress made? If they didn’t have the resources to accomplish anything why not take the crew off the hill and get a new assignment? From research there is very little mention of what took place from 1300 to the point it was decided to walk around 1600. From the SAIT investigation GMIHC went to work but only committed to putting in short pieces of line and would back track their line reinforcing it. I see this point in time as one of the most critical. There were 3 hours to make decisions for the crew. There was plenty of time to say let’s get the hell out of here or what are we doing here.
Sorry if I have offended anyone. I’m just heartbroken that 19 men are gone. I feel as all of them should be on a fire right now instead of being talked about on a message board. Let’s get the truth and learn some lessons so another crew won’t end up making the same poor decisions.
Pete,
You’re not offending me, that’s for sure. My limitation to the conversation is I never served on a hotshot crew. You have, (and in R-3 no less) so your contribution is extremely valuable.
You said:
” I’m just heartbroken that 19 men are gone. I feel as all of them should be on a fire right now instead of being talked about on a message board. Let’s get the truth and learn some lessons so another crew won’t end up making the same poor decisions”
Well said & I agree 100%. Thanks!
Woodsman
Reply to Super Pete post on July 25, 2016 at 10:28 am
>> Super Pete said…
>>
>> There was plenty of time to say let’s get the hell out of here or
>> what are we doing here.
Tragically… YES.
Everything you just said above is absolutely ‘spot on’.
Even as early as 12:45 PM, when Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) were doing their first ‘fly-around-the-fire’ recon… THEY concluded that Granite Mountain was so much ‘out of the game’ down there that they ( Warbis and Lenmark ) were convinced fire management must have just had them ‘staged’ there in the black waiting for another ( useful ) assignment.
This fact was not lost on the ADOSH investigators.
It was part of their ‘evidence’ for issuing historic CITATIONS and FINES against Arizona Forestry and their total mis-managment of that ( what would prove to be a FATAL ) workplace.
Arizona Forestry might have played enough ‘legal cards’ to get everyone else to ‘fold’ at the poker table… but that doesn’t ERASE the actual ADOSH FINDINGS.
That workplace was ‘fucked up’… and 19 men DIED for no good reason.
RTS and anyone else who cares,
Since I have been the most politically outspoken on this thread, I feel that it is appropriate revisit this topic once again at the historic moment in our nation’s history which falls between the national conventions of the two parties who have taken turns screwing the middle class almost out of existence.
I am a single issue voter and I hope whoever can rebuild the middle class starting next year are the ones who win next November. I happen to think that that is most likely to happen if the party of the rich and powerful top 1% are not the ones who win, but…I will be more than happy to be proven wrong. And as RTS said, only time will tell?
Whoops, I need an editor, “Since I have been the most politically outspoken CONTRIBUTOR on this thread, I feel that it is appropriate TO revisit this topic once again at the historic moment in our nation’s history which falls between the national conventions of the two parties who have taken turns screwing the middle class almost out of existence.
I am a single issue voter and I hope whoever can rebuild the middle class starting next year are the ones who win next November. I happen to think that that is most likely to happen if the party of the rich and powerful top 1% are not the ones who win, but…I will be more than happy to be proven wrong. And as RTS said, only time will tell?
That is all…carry on.
Oh…and one more thing. This subject is not even “off topic” because the best place to start would be by channeling MORE money to wildland firefighters and begin rebuilding the middle class by making it possible for young wildland firefighters to make a living wage and at least think about having a family while still being able to pursue that profession, which is NOT possible for most at the present time. And NOT by giving even more money to structural firefighters who have been enlisted as wildland firefighting mercenaries (whores) over the past 30 years through the ICS.
And as true mercenaries (portal to portal unionized whores), they fight for money and not for the love of the profession or a commitment to protecting this great nation’s most valuable non human assets, our vast God given natural resources.
I would call for the elimination of the ICS…again, but I know that is not possible because the Lernaean Hydra it has been allowed to become is now impossible to kill now…if you cut off one head, it just grows several new ones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lernaean_Hydra
I do think however, we should treat it like the brain tumor it is and start by restricting its blood supply in the hope of shrinking or at least retarding its insidious growth that will ultimately kill its complacent and compliant host…the Wildland Firefighting Community.
I know this is diametrically opposed to the approach championed by my old friend…RTS, who obviously believes that if you can’t beat them…you should join them through CAWRT (Central Arizona Whore Response Tumors).
http://www.cawrt.webs.com/
Most of the criticism leveled by WTKTT at the hotshot professionals is accurate…and most of that can all be traced directly to the lack of appropriate funding levels. Not to a lack of professionalism or commitment by the hotshots themselves.
Where do you think the money comes from for the approximately 108 hotshot crews on today’s hotshot crew roster. That’s right…it comes from the federal government (you people) one way or the other.
Gee…after reading all about the Geronimo Hotshots thanks to WTKTT’s OCD need to research everything…how about we make fewer hotshot crews…but BETTER ones? Now there is a novel idea. If we don’t have the money or the qualified personnel to field more than 100 hotshot crews, why isn’t that number restricted to those who we can properly fund and staff?
This is NOT complicated. I know everyone wants their very own hotshot crew. Hotshot crews can be a tremendous source of pride and raise the profiles of the administrative units or agencies that field them.
BUT…hotshot crews can also be TRAIN WRECKS looking for a place to happen because they are ALL hyper hand crews on steroids…it’s the CULTURE. And sometimes poorly trained and supervised hotshot crews find that place with predictable and catastrophic results.
Gary,
“CAWRT (Central Arizona Whore Response Tumors).” Really? Why don’t you just go f**k yourself and the horse you rode in on. And the Lernaean Hydra is much bigger than ICS. This is definitely one of your pet peeves, so I’ll do my level best to give you a cogent, researched response.
This issue goes much higher and deeper than you know and I will address that last with the Federal tentacles reaching far and wide with their mandates and recommendations and funding.
So then, do we merely allow the Hybrid Firefighters to continue to f**k up and f**k things up or do we help them learn how to do things the right way?
My response is, if you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. I choose to be part of the solution. I dare to make them feel uncomfortable, and challenge them. I am serious about being part of the solution.
When presenting Municpal-Structual-Wildland Training or Refreshers, I list all the things I think that those Agencies/Departments perform, such as 1) Structure Fires, 2) Commercial Fires, 3) HAZMAT, 4) Medical/EMS, 5) Technical Rescue, 6) Fire inspections, 8) Education and Prevention, 9) Arson Investigation, and lastly 10) WILDLAND FIRES (WF).
Then I ask them who knows all ‘The WFF Rules’ by heart. A few hands go up and they nod yes, when I tell them they must have been on a Hot Shot Crew before.
I tell them, for the most part, that they know ‘The Rules’ to all of their many Municipal-Structural-Wildland Fire functions by heart, EXCEPT for the Wildland Fire ‘Rules.’ And for the most part, they all agree.
Then I ask WHY they do not know the ‘WFF Rules’ by heart like all the others I listed, and invariably they hold up their copy of the IRPG (Incident Response Pocket Guide), and say ‘We have them right here in our IRPG.’
I tell them that is not good enough, they need to know them by heart. And then, I look one of them in the eyes and I say – “I tell you what. I have my structural turnouts in my truck and a Structure Firefighting IRPG right here, and I am going to ‘back you up’ on your next structure fire, what do you think about that?”
And their answer is invariably “Hell no or f**k no or something similar.
Then I say “So, what is the difference? Why is it okay to know all the other ‘Rules’ but not the ‘WF Rules’? If you come into the wildland environment with us and you are going to engage, you had better know, understand, and apply ‘The WFF Rules’, by heart. We are counting on you to know them by heart.”
And then I teach them how to know them in order and memorize them by heart in about an hour. I choose to be part of the solution. I dared to make them feel uncomfortable, and even somewhat embarrassed, and challenged them. I am serious about being part of the solution.
I tell them what to do, instead of what not to do. I recount wildland fire case studies and “near misses,” things that almost went wrong and could go wrong again elsewhere without preventive action. We discuss Leadership skills and failures and Human Factors as well.
They already know that most experienced incident supervisors will tell you that the best way to make a decision in an emergency is to make it well ahead of time, before an incident happens and before the specific nature of the problems that will arise is known. We expand on that with wildland fire case studies.
If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. I choose to be part of the solution.
And much of the Hybrid Firefighter Culture and emphasis started after the 2000 fire season with the NUMEROUS General Accounting [now Accountability] Office (GAO) reports on wildland fire and the Wildland Urban Interface (WUI).
Here are several excerpts from the many Executive Branch Hydra heads, as a result of the NUMEROUS GAO Reports, responsible for and contributing to the hybrid firefighter issue, with The FLAME Act of 2009’ and the ‘National Cohesive Wildland Fire Management Strategy’ being huge:
“As identified in the collaboratively prepared report, ‘Mutual Expectations for Preparedness and Suppression in the Interface,’ once Federal, state, tribal, and local agencies have agreed upon and confirmed their responsibilities, authority and jurisdiction based on the enumerated expectations, they will identify opportunities to realign interface protection expectations and responsibilities among existing organizations to better match respective organizational missions and capabilities.”
“Training is one of the listed responsibilities – Wildland firefighting resources will be trained with equivalency in mind, meaning that qualifications under one entity will be recognized by another.”
“The Federal Land Assistance, Management and Enhancement Act of 2009 (FLAME Act of 2009)”
https://www.forestsandrangelands.gov/strategy/documents/reports/2_ReportToCongress03172011.pdf
“A National Cohesive Wildland Fire Management Strategy, written in collaboration with other Federal, state, tribal, and local governmental and non-governmental partners to assure a national approach. A National Cohesive Wildland Fire Management Strategy, presents a collaboratively designed approach to a national strategy. It adds to and builds upon the information presented in this report by clearly identifying the national challenges, guiding principles, goals and performance measures. It culminates in presenting a path forward on how the national fire community will proceed, together, to develop and implement the national strategy.”
“Wildfire response – This element considers the full spectrum of fire management, from preparedness to full suppression to managing fire for multiple objectives. The strategy recognizes differences in missions among local, state, tribal and Federal organizations and will offer collaboratively developed methodologies to move forward.”
“A National Cohesive Wildland Fire Management Strategy do not represent an end-point, but rather a beginning. There is a tremendous amount of work to be done, science to be considered and incorporated, and differences to be resolved. The direction is set and the wheels are in motion to address the significant issues that have increasingly plagued the fire community and the Nation.”
“Leadership in both Departments [USDA and USDI] recognized that in order to be truly national in scope, a cohesive strategy must go beyond the DOI and Forest Service and include tribal, state, local, public and stakeholder interests. Wildfire knows no jurisdictional boundaries and the agencies and entities having direct or indirect fire management responsibilities are therefore linked at all levels. Inclusion, collaboration and cooperation are absolute requirements in today’s wildland fire
environment.”
“Embarking on a strategy development effort, the Wildland Fire Leadership Council (WFLC) — a consortium of Federal, state, tribal, county and local authorities — established a Cohesive Strategy Oversight Committee (CSOC) consisting of representatives from all levels of fire management and charged them with moving forward.”
So saith the the Lernaean Hydra.
If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. I choose to be part of the solution. And if that calls for cutting the heads off Hydra, so be it.
One of many GAO Reports dealing with wildland fire and WUI, this one fairly recent from 2015.
http://www.gao.gov/assets/680/672579.pdf
And yes, I am just like an old dog who can’t stop chewing on a bone once I start…since I do have some OCD issues of my own.
And even though I told Muzzy, “And when I said, “Any more questions? If you have them, ask someone else.” I just meant more questions about the third rail…race relations and interagency politics to a lesser degree.”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342615
I am now working on a more detailed response that will focus on the BIA because I think the information found by WTKTT in the hotshot history paper really is quite…disturbing.
“And the Lernaean Hydra is much bigger than ICS. This is definitely one of your pet peeves, so I’ll do my level best to give you a cogent, researched response.
This issue goes much higher and deeper than you know and I will address that last with the Federal tentacles reaching far and wide with their mandates and recommendations and funding.”
Please tell me more. I want to learn.
“If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. I choose to be part of the solution.” (Vidkun Quisling, April 9, 1940)
And thanks for the detailed response, I am going to need that info for writing my highly regarded and much anticipated critical expose (The Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters) about the parasitic CAWRTumor that is killing it’s host…slowly but surely.
If you have anything else to add, please do so. I will take anything else you have on the subject that you think will be helpful for my readers to understand just how bad the situation has become and WHY there is very little money (blood supply) for wildland firefighters.
Those limited funds are being siphoned off for parasites and old guys that can’t give up their supplemental retirement plan…being part time parasitic tumors and using up the available blood supply.
I do hereby now and forever give Mr. Robert The Second royalty free use of; “CARWRT – Central Arizona Whore Response Tumors (Copyrighted C, All Rights Reserved, 2016, G. Olson)” to use at his discretion.
Gary L. Olson
Gary,
You posted: “Those limited funds are being siphoned off for parasites and old guys that can’t give up their supplemental retirement plan.”
This old guy CAN give up his retirement plan but chooses instead to be part of the solution.
Why is that a problem?
It isn’t for you because you are special, you earned it, you deserve it, you have gone where no man has gone before, serving more than 26 years as a hotshot superintendent. Do I have that right? 26 years as a hotshot, or 26 years as a hotshot superintendent?
It’s (almost) everyone else who DOES not deserve it who are the problems. Men like Darrell Willis who is also moonlighting with as a blood sucking tumor after already having double dipped and then triple dipped and now is hoping to quadruple dip.
I have told you before, you get a pass. And you thanked me then, and so no thanks this time is neccessary.
In other words, you are a walking, talking encyclopedia of wildland firefighting knowledge, skills and abilities with a particular set of skills focused on WF safety and a national treasure who should share what you know with those who need or want to know it.
Gary,
I will admit to having particular set of skills focused on WF safety,;leadership, and human factors.
The rest is pure conjecture and your opinion. Thanks.
RTS said, “And then I teach them how to know them in order and memorize them by heart in about an hour. I choose to be part of the solution. I dared to make them feel uncomfortable, and even somewhat embarrassed, and challenged them. I am serious about being part of the solution.”
I think it may be working. A young FF of my acquaintance from one of the departments listed in the CAWRT site told of his wildland firefighting training. I asked him what he learned, and he said he learned that he never wanted to fight a WLF, ever. I heard he recently was called to such a fire, but I haven’t asked him how it went.
John McCabe is one fellow it is great to hear from. I wish we had more like him come to this site so they could become more informed of what the facts are. I hope you are not related to Marsh or Steed, since some of their relatives have an agenda trying to make heroes out of their carelessly killing the 17. However, I think the blame goes on up the ladder where the higher boys have an order of magnitude to enforce many pages of blackouts of investigative material and even warn the subordinates to keep mum if they do not want to be demoded, denigraded and maybe tarred and feathered. Fuck with the boss and you get fucked.
I have shed many a tear for the 17, and I still feel Marsh was prodded into risking those lives–he certainly argued Steed into something Steed did not want to do–something I think Marsh himself questioned. It has taken three years to learn a lot about the situation and the biggest part is to be learned on this site.
People like JD, WTKTT, Joy Collura, and Marty Reed are citizens–not wild land fire fighters. John probably wonders why they spend so much time on this, considering they are not fire fighters. Well how about this money that feeds these wild land fire fighters –tax payer dollars that was dumped in the millions–serious tax money. Do they not have the right to concern themselves about both the deaths of 17 heroes and millions out of the coffers that should have been instead spent in a better way?
Dr. Ted Putnam told me that about half the relatives accept the line the so called experts give as to the deaths and don’t want to hear more while the other half really want the bare facts of the case. I believe him, he was a 15 year smoke jumper and is known and respected as one of if the the best wild land fire death investigator in the country. Add to that Gary Olson of impeccable reputations as a wild land fire fighter superintendent and investigator and you are just beginning to understand the ramifications that are afloat when these men say this this investigation is not kosher. Some people want to keep their heads in the sand–Gary would say up their ass and I agree. This after all is a National and Universal event–a wild land fire fighting fuck up that cost 19 lives and millions in tax dollars. Yet after three years we are still on it, and more truth comes out as we go along.
See as a kid of 15 I helped my Dad put out lightening strikes far more distant and steeper terrain that this one. We did it on foot and with shovels, now that I do recollect there were three trees burning and brush around– we managed that in one day, yet three fire local fire departments never bothered with this lightening strike in even more extreme conditions that we had in the Burro Mountains. Sawmill Canyon, out of Silver City, NM. We only had our mining camp to worry about, here half the town–127 residents burned. Still all these wonderful and apt wild land fire fighting organizations handed out awards like candy. Meantime the Forest Service got a maximum fine for the incident.= one of wild land fire fighting efforts people have tried to paint as heroic despite it being one of the worlds worst fuck ups in wild land fire fighting.
I applaud WTKTT for his efforts–His and others will change things so that we do not have superiors risking their subordinate lives needlessly as we saw here. Maybe local fire departments will take action –something I know they would have done had they seen a campfire up there on that mountain.
Bring it on, people that have had your head in the sand–we can only love your posts.
Those trees were north of our camp in different locations–Dad did not want his 12×12 military tent to get scorched–even then you could not always count on the Forest Service to take care of business–but they had good excuse there–the nearest office was in Silver City, about 35 miles away.
Gary. in all due respect, if we get too many GMHS crews fighting fires then we won”t need pay advances, just settlements to the related ones. I do believe we need to double pay for the grunt–I am suspect for people that are killing the novice and those committed to strictly obeying orders.
I agree with you and if I said what you think I said, I said it wrong. We don’t need anymore GMIHC or hotshots like how the Geronimo Hotshots apparently used to be, we need all hotshot crews like the true hero’s of the YHF…the Blue River Hotshots formerly known as the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
Gary,
From a Geronimo HS: “never seen anything like that but doesn’t matter now… lol…. It may be true but no need to downgrade and bash the crew now from the past occurrences… every crew has the ups and downs and I know certain criteria wasn’t established back then to acknowledge a type 1 crew… nevertheless this person is a witness to the past and im not sure if its true but doesn’t mean the crew hasn’t made its peak performance now. If Ops guide was utilized back then id sure like to see the documentation to support all type 1 crews…. Micheal Longknife did bring the crew to what it is today… and I know this…. working as a first year crewmember under his supervision…. I needed a leader like that to bring reality of wildland fire to my heart and it will forever stay. This person has his/her opinion and its simple dust on the shoulder to shrug off. Thanks for sharing.”
Today is the 13th anniversary of the Cramer Fire on the Salmon NF in Idaho. Here is the Six Minutes for Safety ‘discussion.’
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/six-minutes-for-safety/This-Day-in-History/TDIH_Cramer.pdf
It’s mostly factual and accurate with some glaring falsehoods.
“L[ookouts] – The investigation report states that there were no effective lookouts for the rappellers at H2.”
FALSE – Long Tom Lookout tower staffed with a SCF lookout was very close and could see right down into the Cramer Fire. She had given them numerous and continual fire weather and fire behavior updates and warnings, however, they ignored her and even requested that the SCF tell her to cease and desist.
“E[scape Routes] and S[afety Zones] – There were no effective safety zones for the rappellers at H2 and once H1 below them burned over, the only way out was a helicopter.”
FALSE – there was good, solid black very close to those 2 rappellers on the ridgetop. They chose to wait for a helicopter and fly out rather than merely walk over to the safety of the black.
One of them was so convinced that they were going to get a helicopter ride out, that he died still wearing his flight helmet.
There is so much more to bring out on why they were so preoccupied with being flown off the ridge and distracted from the basic LCES requirement, including the typical lies, cover=ups, whitewash, and more in the alleged Accident Investigation “FACTUAL” Report.
Here is a September 2004 link from the Colorado Fire Camp website titled “Open letter on the Cramer Fire Anniversary? written by Kelly Close FBAN, of the Poudre Fire Authority in Ft. Collins, CO. He was the FBAN (Fire Behavior Analyst) on the Cramer Fire Investigation.
He wrote: “I suspect it’s a combination of human factors, group-think, leadership, not resolving “cognitive dissonance,” inexperience, and many other subtle (and not so subtle) factors. I do have to wonder… for every Cramer or South Canyon, how many “whew-that was close” fires do we not hear about. Anyone out there personally experienced or witnessed a close-call that could have easily gone the other way? …”
http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/Cramer/letter.htm
There are numerous links regarding the fire and investigation and OSHA and more on the left.
May THEY “Rest in Peace”.
May WE keep trying to cut through the crap and find out exactly WHY they died, and WHY people feel the need to try and cover it up and LIE about what happened, and HOW it can be ( as much as humanly possible ) prevented from happening AGAIN.
There are OTHERS who are still alive and would like to STAY that way.
One more time… that recent PUBLIC QUOTE from Dr. Ivan Pupulidy himself, the actual AUTHOR of the new USFS protocol that replaces the older ‘Special Accident Investigation’ protocol…
“When will we give up SECRETS to keep our friends ALIVE?”
USFS Employee Dr. Ivan Pupulidy
Former Acting Program Manager for Human Factors Risk Management Research Development and Application for the USFS’ Rocky Mountain Research Station.
Current DIRECTOR of the USFS’ new Office of Learning.
Damn good quote WTKTT–Donut keeps his and so do many others — but now even if he came clean, how clean? Why do people keep secrets rather that tell the truth? Fear, greed, etc–good human factors to study out. Biggest one is why did bosses needlessly risk 17 lives and their own as well? This knowledge and understanding can save countless lives.
If you want to leave a true memorial to Marsh and Steed and whoever else involved in having those 17 go to their death it would be bosses who taught future bosses that safety of their men comes first–vacant structures can be replaced. Their fuck up can make future bosses understand the wild land safety rules are for real and not Hillbilly.
McCabe thinks we are anger obsessed causing us to stay with exposing the lies fed the public. Well if you allow this debacle to go unnoticed you then are indeed guilty of belonging to the careless crowd. People who have followed this and revealed the true story are doing the right thing–thanks for their time and effort in doing what needs to be done.
WTKTT–Thanks again–you are one person that tells it like it is. Good deeds and work. We do love our firemen–many of Irish decent–to give them less than they deserve is a disservice to our country. This killing of young men willing to follow leaders that kill has to be stopped. You indeed are a force to be feared for those that want to live the lie and protect a flawed system.
RE: “for every Cramer or South Canyon, how many “whew-that was close” fires do we not hear about”
We know from Brendan that he and Chris Mackinsie had one 12 days before the YHF entrapment. Are those required to be reported if there are no injuries? If not, what counts as a reportable injury? If your shirt gets singed, does that count?
It seems that most of these fatal entrapments result from behaviors that were routine for the unit involved. Most of these seem to go noticed but unreported, so how can this change without micromanagement?
Also, not having a safety officer on Type 3 fires seems like a dumb idea. These days, it seems like the heavy load of very dry fuels, type 3 has a much greater chance of escalating than when these rules were laid out. Maybe the criteria for each type need to be altered to reflect current realities. There would need to be a corresponding increase in qualified teams, etc., which means more money…so…never mind.
Just watched this video about the Cramer Fire:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KBlU8eqH4hk
It’s narrated by FBAN Kelly Close, who wrote the open letter referenced above by RTS. Sounds like Salmon-Challis is a very dangerous place, with more than 200 deployments (but only 3 were fatal). It sounds like a place where fire should just burn. The topology is extremely complex, probably hard to use weather reports without some good modeling software to predict micro weather.
Nevertheless, FBAN close reiterates what RTS said above, the rapellers chose death over a long slog out…
In reading about some of the other deployments near the Salmon River, I came across this video of the 1985 Butte Fire:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2DFggibCDbs
73 deployed in two huge safety zones during a crown fire. I was impressed at the difference in size and quality of those zones compared to the tiny deployment area at the YHF. Of course, a crown fire is probably hotter and certainly burns longer (they were under shelters for over an hour) than one in chaparral. Still, if shelters are needed in a purported safety zone, something needs to be recalibrated.
BTW, at about 7:45 on the video is an interview with two strapping young men from the Payson IHC, who rode out the burn over in a higher safety zone in relative comfort, not having had to deploy their shelters. One of them is Roy Hall, who was IC at the YHF.
Reply to Muzzy post on July 23, 2016 at 2:33 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> BTW, at about 7:45 on the video is an interview with
>> two strapping young men from the Payson IHC, who
>> rode out the burn over in a higher safety zone in relative
>> comfort, not having had to deploy their shelters. One of
>> them is Roy Hall, who was IC at the YHF.
Yep. Roy Hall actually ‘mentioned’ this 1985 Butte Fire to the ADOSH investigators when he was being interviewed after the Yarnell tragedy.
It’s when Roy Hall was telling ADOSH that due to prior experience ( including what he went through on the 1985 Butte fire ) he wasn’t really convinced that ‘the worst’ had happened to GM until they didn’t hear anything from them for a full HOUR.
From Yarnell IC Roy Hall’s first ( of two ) ADOSH interviews
on August 16, 2013…
——————————————————————————
1530 A: And checking in with Paul, any – any, uh, word? Thirty minutes, no word, 45
1531 minutes, no word. At the one hour mark I check in with Todd Abel and he
1532 said we haven’t heard from them. We’re now where we can initiate a forward
1533 reconnaissance by ATV UTV and, uh, we haven’t found them yet. I called
1534 David Geyer and Scott Hunt at that time and told them it’s been an hour and
1535 that I didn’t feel like it would be a good outcome.
1536
1537 Q2: Hm.
1538
1539 A: After an hour I was very concerned.
1540
1541 Q2: Mm-hm.
1542
1543 A: And that’s from some experience in Idaho.
1544
1545 Q2: Mm-hm.
1546
1547 A: You know when things like this happen, um, there are times that – that a crew
1548 may not be able to – to communicate for a time, because they’re – they’re
1549 trying to stay alive.
1550
1551 Q2: Mm-hm.
1552
1553 A: But then after about 30 minutes, my experience had been in 1985 on that Long
1554 Tong Butte, on – on the 72 fire shelters get thrown out on the ground and 72
1555 firefighters and about 30 minutes after they initially deployed then we started
1556 getting communications from them. So…
1557
1558 Q2: And that was in heavy timber wasn’t it?
1559
1560 A: Yes, yeah, it wasn’t in brush. It wasn’t in brush. It was on the breaks of the
1561 Salmon…
1562
1563 Q2: Yeah.
1564
1565 A: Which is equally as dangerous.
——————————————————————————
WTKTT,
My favorite statement/question was : “You know who I am don’t you?” with regard to the Butte Fire.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
July 23, 2016 at 9:19 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> My favorite statement/question was : “You know
>> who I am don’t you?” with regard to the Butte Fire.
Yes. That very first staetment out of Roy Hall’s mouth in his SAIT ‘Interview Notes’ WAS also referring to the 1985 Butte Fire.
Direct quote from PDF page 28 of the SAIT ‘Yarnell Hill Investigation’ ( YIN ) Interview ‘Notes’ document…
———————————————————–
Interview with Roy Hall – 7/8/2013 – 10:30 AM
Interviewers: Jay Kurth, John Phipps, Mike Dudley, Jimmy Rocha
“You understand who I am: 1985 Butte Fire training video… that is who I am.”
———————————————————–
Muzzy said:
“BTW, at about 7:45 on the video is an interview with two strapping young men from the Payson IHC, who rode out the burn over in a higher safety zone in relative comfort, not having had to deploy their shelters. ”
Not quite correct. One was Payson & one was Flagstaff (Roy Hall.) The ‘mystery man’ (haha), who happens to be young as hell looking back then (haha) from Payson should stand out due to his coolest helmet of all the shot crews. I actually do think it’s a cool helmet color.
After hearing the real story of the Butte fire direct from the supe of Payson at the time, thanks for that, I really get a kick out of hearing the Jemez account of the burn over in the video.
Note: you may have to be a wff to find the humor.
Watchman Woodsman
W2,
You posted: “After hearing the real story of the Butte fire direct from the supe of Payson at the time, thanks for that, I really get a kick out of hearing the Jemez account of the burn over in the video.”
The video was definitely NOT the real story.
We just did a Butte Fire Staff Ride Development Group in late June in Salmon, ID for 3 days. Best Staff Ride I ever attended, 85 participants, about 20 of us there on August 29th, the first time we had been together and on the site since 1985. LOTS of revelations!.
Here’s a link to the Preliminary Study. As usual. lots of lies and cover-up. I intentionally lied when I said 200 foot flame lengths/heights because I knew the video was going to be about fire shelters, and it started what I called the ‘Fire Shelter Movement.’
They videotaped about 80% of the Staff Ride so I hope there is little to no editing done
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd504382.pdf
RTS,
I understand the video is not the real story. That’s what I was trying to say. I got the real story straight from the Payson supe that was there. It’s extra fucking funny (or sad, depending on how you choose to look at it) listening to the accounts of Ops, Jemez, etc. in that video. I got the real story just last year.
“I want a window installed into the shelter so I can walk around with it during the burnover and check on my guys…..”
Watchdawg
RTS,
I didn’t absorb the rest of your post because I thought you were just telling me that video was not the real story….and I was thinking, ‘no shit, sherlock.,’ you told me the real story. Off to read the report now. Thanks.
Almost forgot: I could see right off that it was going to be used to pump the shelters when I heard the Ops chief speak. Obvious salesmanship on the shelters, That dude made some other statements that were downright cringe-worthy. Shifty eyes too. It was almost like the chief of the USFS himself was standing behind the camera making sure he pumped the shelters.
Pimp Daddy Watchdawg Woodsman
Go Woodsman!
W2,
The Line Boss/OPS never showed up at the Staff Ride Development nor did either of the STL’s.
RTS,
Some questions for you:
1. Why does it take 31 years for everyone to get together for a staff ride on a fire like Butte?
2. Do you believe the accounts are accurate that said the tool handles were burnt away on the tools laying next to the sheltered firefighters or was that made up?
3. Did you get the impression back then that management wanted to promote a certain narrative? If so, what was it & why?
I appreciate it.
WW
W2,
“1. Why does it take 31 years for everyone to get together for a staff ride on a fire like Butte?”
Good question. We all asked the same thing. We all said it was an emotional, life changing event that positively influenced or firefighting careers.
“2. Do you believe the accounts are accurate that said the tool handles were burnt away on the tools laying next to the sheltered firefighters or was that made up?”
The Line Boss/OPS was being disingenuous and wanted you to think that was the case on Tin Cup Hill (TCH). it was NOT!
On TCH, the wooden sign, the tool handles, and the grass clumps did NOT burn there.
He was referring to the Mormon Lake HS and their area where they were working on a spot fire, that blew out and had to run for over a mile to escape.
The tool handles burned out, the Jerry cans full of saw and burn fuel exploded, and the drip torches melted.
“3. Did you get the impression back then that management wanted to promote a certain narrative? If so, what was it & why?”
Absolutely had an agenda and it was FIRE SHELTERS!
I overheard one of the Investigators on the phone telling someone that ‘There were a lot of f**k ups on the fire, but we will MAKE SURE THE REPORT SAYS that supervisors did a good job and had everyone go into fire shelters.’
To start the ‘Fire Shelter Movement’ because they were never designed to withstand they temperatures and fire behavior conditions.
RTS,
First of all, thanks. This is valuable information that helps explain just what ‘management’ is capable of in the aftermath of entrapment fires.
It’s interesting that you said many referred to the Butte fire as having a positive (albeit traumatic) influence of your careers because the report states that it may have had a negative impact on some…and may have even ended some careers.
OK so the ‘soup of the day’ was pimping fire shelters just like it sounded like to me in the video. Let’s dig deeper. Why? What was so important concerning the validation of the performance of or justification of the fire shelters? Can you explain to me why shelters were such a hot topic at this time? What’s the whole story there?
In your opinion, did any ignition operations contribute in any way to the ultimate deployment of fire shelters?
Somewhat irrelevant side note: I’ve been assigned to fires in the Salmon/Challis a couple of times – awesome country!
Watcher
WW,
The aerial ignition all day influenced the fire behavior along with crazy, intense upper air phenomenon.
The Rothermel and Mutch research paper discounts the aerial ignition. Bullshit!
I have photos of 800′. 1000′, and 1200+ foot flame lengths and fire balls and fire whirls.
They planned the whole thing.
W2,
Muzzy got it right.
“Salmon-Challis is a very dangerous place, with more than 200 deployments.”
Not one of my favs.
2W,
You posted: “Why? What was so important concerning the validation of the performance of or justification of the fire shelters? Can you explain to me why shelters were such a hot topic at this time? What’s the whole story there??
Don’t really know other than they were fairly new.
Once everyone was burned over, without even asking anyone what happened, if everyone was okay, or anything else, he Line Boss spouted off on Command: “ORDER UP EVERY TROOP FLYING HELICOPTER WE HAVE IN IDAHO, WE HAVE AT LEAST 140 FATALITIES.”
Many of us feel it was a ‘planned’ event.
RTS,
You are validating my hunches and putting the pieces of the puzzle together in my mind well. Thanks!
So quite possibly there are some legitimate reasons why it took 31 years to get folks together for a staff ride – management wanted to bury that shit! “Fire shelters save lives!” end of story! Nothing to see here! Move on!
I’m far from the most experienced wff out there but in my 17 seasons I’ve learned enough to know how to read between the lines. I strongly suspected that the ignitions played a role and you just confirmed it…with emphasis I might add. That’s sickening man! Those low-down, two-faced, cowardly, idiotic, incompetent, spineless, fucked-up pieces of shit! I stand in utter awe that we have not racked up hundreds of wff deaths each year in the last 40 years! Un-fucking-believable!!!
Do you believe that it’s out of the realm of possibility for fire managers to have planned the whole ‘pseudo=deployment’ scenario complete with ignition, what they perceived as adequate safety zones, etc………as a publicity stunt to shore up acceptance of fire shelters? Is it possible? Did they do it?
Watchdawg Woodsman
RTS,
I was typing my post when you posted yours first.
MANAGEMENT PLANNED TO CREATE A CLOSE CALL, PUTTING MULTIPLE FIREFIGHTERS LIVES AS STAKE, SO THEY COULD INCREASE ACCEPTANCE OF THE FIRE SHELTERS!!!
Those evil fucking slimy bastards!
eye-twitching Watchman Woodsman
W2,
You posted: “Do you believe that it’s out of the realm of possibility for fire managers to have planned the whole ‘pseudo=deployment’ scenario complete with ignition, what they perceived as adequate safety zones, etc………as a publicity stunt to shore up acceptance of fire shelters? Is it possible? Did they do it?”
Yes, I and others allege they did.
RTS,
Well then. There’s a front-page fucking story right there then, isn’t it.
Their strategy is to bury that shit and let enough time go by that no one cares anymore. It has worked for a lot of different fires over the years and so far, it’s working for Yarnell as well.
Did any of THAT shit come up in the staff ride…31 years later?
I wonder how many of those wff’s lives were negatively affected following the shelter-pimping publicity stunt?
Watch the video again and look at the Ops chief’s eyes. He’s privy to the plan and he’s very uncomfortable about it. (I should have been a prosecutor)
And they wonder why I can be so negative…
Watchdawg
Muzzy,
Check out the Wildland Fire LLC Case Study videos, knowing that they are less than ‘factual’.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ci8Xk392eM&list=PLDZN709tslVGaQtxVh3LeipezWqxUoW8T
Muzzy if you ever want to take the hike to see what those men did under Marsh and Steed, I will gladly take you there. Then you will say Oh My God they went down there and they were watching the fire over there? And Gary, you were refused like DR. Ted Putnam–fuck the refusal, and we are both slow but it would be an honor as it has been to hike you legally there to where you can see the whole damn craziness of killing those 17.
We have had all kinds of explanations from a bear deterred them to datura smoke mesmerized them. Even aliens had to be involved. Any cowboy would say WTF were they doing.
This whole reason to have to get permission to hike the area–it will be refused, is not because of sensitivities==it is because a few want to hide the facts of what went down. Once respected wild land fire fighters and even common sense civilians see what they did and how they dropped off in a box canyon with not way out and knowing weather conditions were about to shift winds uphill, they will realize that the bosses involved should be stood up and prosecuted, not fed awards. All liars that have been enjoying the lime light will be upbraided. Lives mean too much to allow the bullshit.
I am appalled that wild land fire fighters, especially those that are of the ilk of Gary Olson and Dr. Ted Putnam have been refused to hike the area and see where the GMHS hiked and how they dropped off in a danger zone from the two track. It smells to high heaven of a cover up–and who could be doing the refusals and why. Sensitivities is the excuse and a sorry one. These men are the elite of fire fighting and pay respects to the dead by trying to understand why and how could these thing happen so they do not happen again–yet they are refused. This shows the power of the chain of command–strictly take orders daily or you are fucked.
Charlie,
Thanks, I may take you up on that one day, after it cools off, and if I can be sure you won’t have to carry me most of the way up. I don’t know too many people who could do what you and Joy do on a whim!
muzzy- good thing you do not want to go today
Yes, it sounds like you and yours are busy today. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
Muzzy, you are another hero trying to get answers. See if Chief Ben Palm will give permission for you to hike the two track. I bet you will get refused. Ask him if he ever hiked it himself. I will if I run into him–but seems that he did not make an appointment to see Joy where she wanted to get FOIA information. They did treat Joy a bit better today, did not call the Sheriff on her like last time. What is wrong with civilians knowing what the fire departments are doing with their tax money?
McCabe does not realize 127 local homes, half the town was destroyed–does he think people should take that lightly? Surely he does understand that some of these people lost homes, possesions and treasures from a lifetime of living here. Some were displaced and could never return. Jesus, do not be small minded in a tragedy like this.
Add to the count of over 90 now dead since the fire. This agent orange retardant is another issue with its secret ingredients and the biggest known one a lung killer and guaranteed to kill thousands of fish if dumped in a river as it has been more than once. Buy the bullshit, weep for those that did wrong, but I won’t/.
Now that I think about it I should not be so hard on McCabe. He is no different than many of the locals whom have been mesmerized into the herd. He has plenty of company.
On this thing Joy says Congress FD did not mess around–she got the info immediately. But the delay at Yarnell gave them time to juggle the info–Whats to hide? See, they are sitting around there with nothing pressing–until Joy shows up. I mean, what the hell if there is nothing to do but sit there, why not give Joy the info right then? Instead call the Sheriff so you get a long delay and even then they did not open her registered package requesting info–but hands it back to her. What the hell, are they above the law where Arizona Citizens, and even American citizens are allowed to have the information–still they said it is not her District–so what business does she have wanting information from them. She said she is a taxpayer–isn’t that enough. These are public servants, yet they want the public go be blind.
Reply to Charlie post on July 23, 2016 at 11:23 pm
>> Charlie asked…
>>
>> She said she is a taxpayer–isn’t that enough?
Yes.
And anyone who thinks you need to have ANY kind of special ‘credentials’ to file an ‘Arizona Opens Records Request’ *OR* a “Freedom of Information Request” is full of crap.
YARNELL FIRE NUMBER 3
YEAH.
my cell got smashed yesterday but I got an unusual text- I thought it was OLD so I called the number because it use to have name tied to number but the cell drop screwed my cell…anyways it was a text at 3:13pm when a local called fire dept and the fire dept DID NOT KNOW about smoke/fire in the hills NE at 2pm…wasn’t 4 million enough?
keep you posted…maybe Alan Sinclair’s time making movie will be on pause to come handle another fire…heading to fire dept now…
Nothing showing up online about any ‘new’ fire in Yarnell. Not yet, anwway.
BTW: I believe SW Region Type 2 ( Team #3 ) Incident Commander Alan Sinclair ( one of Eric Marsh’s old friends ) is currently assigned to the ‘Fuller’ fire there near the Grand Canyon.
He may not have any kind of ‘contractor’ or ‘consultant’ relationship with the ‘movie people’ at all… and may have only been there ‘on the set’ back on July 11 and 12 to watch his son, Ethan Sinclair, play one of the FAKE “Blue River Hotshots”.
Nothing on Phoenix news. Maybe the YFD has decided the publicity generated by their calls and videos to local news outlets was not worth the extra scrutiny of their operations.
Or maybe they just decided to let Tex ( Sonny ) Gilligan take care of it for them THIS time. ( THIRD time’s the charm ).
Well, good! Finally some competent WLFF out of Yarnell.
Nothing yet. I went to asses it by text locations… One near the church and one near five miles out. I called yfd and got message machine requesting call back on a 2pm call the chief received on a fire and I will be adding this to a request so need new FOIA form and its followup to this call because peeples valley FD and contracted dispatcher heard nothing on frequency for this area today. Man Hall and Whittaker are having a beautiful third and final round on ufc. I had to call and cancel out a surgeon… Based on their fabricated doc notes but all she added that did not match my sound recorded visit but what she added was a total cover her ass if surgery went wrong but never happened… I don’t care if she claims to be the best if you can lie as simple as first visit get to know and ready for surgery than what would you do if you foul up surgery…sure hate when people have angles and agendas and lies to make sure they are clear…God will handle them but they won’t cut on me…is our world just a bullshit or do I seem to draw it in…???
Joy asks, “God will handle them but they won’t cut on me…is our world just a bullshit or do I seem to draw it in…???”
Not just you. Think of Joan Rivers. The guy who wrote the musical Rent died of an aneurism that the ER docs didn’t want to treat because he had no insurance, so they sent him away not even knowing. Even influential people have humans for doctors.
Always get a second opinion before surgery.
Hope the fire is already out.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BIVBekgh57B/
I know this has nothing to do with IM but what do you think his story is?
Also bringing The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive post from Chapter XXII:
“The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says
July 21, 2016 at 9:24 am
The real question regarding this commentary is why didn’t someone from the rest of the crew (who knew that Brendan had left his look-out spot when the fire had chased him out) act as HIS look-out, and show some concern for HIS safety, when the fire had already run him off of his lookout point??
To me, this question looms large, because at THAT point in time, the look-out was the ONLY one in any sort of danger, and all of the accounts and reports including Brendan’s own accounts, indicate the he was seemingly left to fend for himself when his life was clearly in danger.”
Reply
TTWARE,
This was discussed in some detail several chapters back and I have been unable to find it.
You are absolutely correct here.
The GMHS Overhead were pretty cavalier and slack in this regard, allegedly acting as his Lookout, since the GMHS had the best overall vantage and Lookout points of anyone on the entire YH Fire.
As you put it: “he was seemingly left to fend for himself when his life was clearly in danger.”
More to the point, he WAS left to fend for himself.
It was as if McDonough was down there entirely on his own, setting his own WAY-TOO-CLOSE trigger point, watching and waiting TOO LONG before leave once he hit his trigger point, and then contemplating where to go to DEPLOY his fire shelter rather than head up to the black above him.
I’m sure this was covered elsewhere, but do the WLFFs in the group think the lookout position was a good choice? It seems like they had better eyes on the fire up on the ridge than Donut could have.
Throughout BOTH of his ADOSH interviews… Brendan McDonough himself said he wasn’t communicating much with Marsh and Steed the whole time he was down there on that ‘lookout mount’ because “They could see everything I could see”.
It still remains possible that the only reason McDonough was sent ‘down there’ was to get him AWAY from the other ( VERY tired ) GM Hotshots. Brendan had been off for a few days and was “raring to go” that Sunday. Most of the Hotshots listed their own ‘readiness’ state on the Station 7 chalkboard that very morning as no more than about ’60 percent’… while McDonough wrote down just the words “Hell YEAH!” for his ‘readiness state’.
So TWO scenarios still remain possible….
1. Brendan had not fully recovered from his ‘flu’ ( or whatever it was he said he had )… and by NOON he was ‘totally spent’. Marsh and Steed decided to send him down there to be ‘lookout’ rather than just have him sitting around doing nothing the rest of the day by the other men.
*** OR ***
2. Brendan really was ‘recovered’ and ‘fresh’ ( whereas the other Hotshots were almost exhausted ) and Brendan was being some kind of “Hell YEAH!” asshole as his own book says he sometimes would do on the ‘fireline’. Marsh and Steed decided to get Brendan AWAY from the others because he might have been drving them fucking CRAZY that morning with his “Hell YEAH!” routine.
Either way…. Brendan DID tell ADOSH investigators that there was not one thing HE could see from his ‘lookout’ mound that BOTH Steed AND Marsh could not ALSO see.
So it DOES beg the question… what the hell was McDonough even doing down there in that middle of all that unburned fuel ( with no adequate Safety Zone ) in the first place?
WTKTT,
There is also the possibility that some other GMHS was always or most often used as Lookout and that particular day, Marsh and/or Steed decided to replace him with McDonough because they wanted to ‘gig’ this guy somewhat and because McDonough was sick and/or hungover.
The Hearsay Exception applies here per “Arizona Rule 803, Hearsay exceptions; Availability of declarant immaterial.” http://www.arizonacrimelaws.com/e803.htm
As far as anyone knows, his BAC was never tested.
You posted: “…. Brendan DID tell ADOSH investigators that there was not one thing HE could see from his ‘lookout’ mound that BOTH Steed AND Marsh could not ALSO see.”
There absolutely was A LOT he could see that was blind to Marsh and Steed, and that’s why he was down there. “BOTH Marsh and Steed” could NOT see the bottom/underslung portion of the fireline the GMHS was working below the them. That portion could ONLY be seen from below, from McDonough’s position.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
July 22, 2016 at 7:31 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> There is also the possibility that some other GMHS
>> was always or most often used as Lookout and that
>> particular day, Marsh and/or Steed decided to replace
>> him with McDonough because they wanted to ‘gig’
>> this guy somewhat and because McDonough was
>> sick and/or hungover.
Yes. Quite possible. Brendan was never ASKED about that by the ADOSH investigators. All Brendan said about being ‘chosen’ was that they ( Steed and Marsh ) called him over and asked him to do it while Frisby and Brown where still there having that ‘face to face’ with Steed and Marsh.
It’s pretty much a given, however, that June 30, 2013 was not the FIRST time Brendan had served as ‘the lookout’ for GM. He knew what to do… and he knew HOW to do it ( spin the weather, etc. ).
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> As far as anyone knows, his BAC was never tested.
Correct. If Brendan’s BAC was ‘tested’ following the incident… there is still no ‘public’ record that it happened or what his BAC might have been when it WAS tested ( IF it ever was ).
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You posted: “…. Brendan DID tell ADOSH investigators that
>> there was not one thing HE could see from his ‘lookout’
>> mound that BOTH Steed AND Marsh could not ALSO see.”
>>
>> There absolutely was A LOT he could see that was
>> blind to Marsh and Steed, and that’s why he was
>> down there. “BOTH Marsh and Steed” could NOT
>> see the bottom/underslung portion of the fireline
>> the GMHS was working below the them. That portion
>> could ONLY be seen from below, from McDonough’s
>> position.
Probably so… but what I said is the way Brendan McDonough himself described the situation to ADOSH in his OWN ‘interview(s)’.
From Brendan’s August 20, 2013 ADOSH interview…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Brendan McDonough
=========================================================
352 A: I went first up top with the crew.
353
354 Q1: Oh you went up to the…
355
356 A: Yes sir.
357
358 Q1: …Top first with the crew?
359
360 A: Mm-hm.
361
362 Q1: First? And then came back ( down to lookout postion ).
363
364 A: ‘Cause you can – you can see – you can still see what the fire’s doing from up
365 there too.
366
367 Q1: Oh okay.
368
369 A: There’s MULTIPLE vantage points where you could see.
=========================================================
From Brendan’s second ADOSH interview on October 10, 2013
Q1 = Bruce Hannah – ADOSH investigator
Q2 = Marshal Krotenberg – ADOSH investigator
A = Brendan McDonough
=========================================================
536 A: …Steed had said, “Okay I can see you moving.”
537
538 Q1: Steed could you see move?
539
540 A: Yeah.
541
542 Q1: Okay.
543
544 A: And so can Eric ‘cause Eric was kinda above me up on the hill.
…
590 A: ‘Cause Eric was, like, literally right above me pretty much, I mean,
591 everything that I wanted to say, he was telling Jesse. So, I mean, it’s kinda
592 pointless. At that point, it was like, “Eric, I’m seeing the same thing.” He’s
593 like, “Yeah, of course,” you know?
594
595 Q2: Right.
596
597 A: So it was – it would a been dumb for me to be like, “Well, I’m seeing the same
598 exact thing,” and repeating my- you know, exactly what he said.
599
600 Q2: Right.
=========================================================
Brendan told ADOSH it became sort of ‘pointless’ for him to try and ‘report’ anything because every time he thought he needed to… Marsh was ALREADY telling Steed about it…
Eric was, like, literally right above me pretty much, I mean, everything that I wanted to say, he was telling Jesse. So, I mean, it’s kinda pointless. At that point, it was like, “Eric, I’m seeing the same thing.” He’s like, “Yeah, of course,”
Followup…
In his own for-profit BOOK.. Brendan pretty much describes things the same way he described it all to the ADOSH investigators.
He says ( in his book ) that since Jesse and Eric could pretty much see everything he could at all times… the afternoon became this little game of “beat the lookout”…
————————————————————–
Page 200…
We were ALL ( myself, Jesse and Eric ) scanning the horizon,
looking for any change of direction in the blaze and for flare-ups.
When we spotted one, it was a RACE to see who could get on
the radio FIRST and report it. A little game of “beat the lookout
at his own game”. Jesse and I would call in and laugh if he
pressed the button before I did.
It was almost a CONTEST.
Page 202…
Eric was still scouting the fire, heading north in the black.
HE was ‘calling in’ whatever HE was seeing, and by three p.m, I
realized that he was parallel to me, though at a higher elevation.
When I saw a flare-up on the north side of the fire, I was about
to thumb the radio when Eric called it in.
Words out my mouth, I thought.
“Copy that” I said.
—————————————————————-
Marsh was DIVS A and it was not his responsibility to be the Lookout for the GMHS, a Crew responsibility.
Moreover, it is impossible to see the lower portion of any underslung fireline below you while you are standing on the ridgetop above it.
IMPOSSIBLE!
The only way to do it correctly is to place a lookout(s) BELOW you and across from you to see it. McDonough was in a good place to do just that.
It’s basic Lookout Placement 101.
His fairly rapid access to a safe area is another issue based on his cutting-it-way-too-close Trigger Point and the cavalier attitude and actions of the GMHS overhead with the best vantage of any ground resource on the YH Fire..
Clarification of above statement.I posted: “The only way to do it correctly is to place a lookout(s) BELOW you and across from you to see it. McDonough was in a good place to do just that.”
What I meant to say was ‘The only way to do it correctly {N THE 30 JUNE 2013, YH FIRE CASE, is to place a lookout(s) BELOW you and across from you to see it. McDonough was in a good place to do just that.’
In another scenario with different topography, placing a lookout across from them and even at the same elevation would have worked as well.
I just wanted to clarify that before Watchman Woodsman noticed it.
RTS,
“I just wanted to clarify that before Watchman Woodsman noticed it.”
Good call. Thanks for the complement! You saved me from crawling you while Cheerleader chanted in background egging me on….it would have been quite the spectacle.
I figured you meant to say that was the only way IN THAT SITUATION. Moving on…
Woodsman
Actually, since I have been to both places–where Donut had his lookout and where the men were building line, Donut would have been much better off a bit above the men since there he would have had better eyes on the fire than where he was positioned. In fact, we had better eyes on the fire than all of them since we could not only see the fire, but see their buss and all the equipment moving in. Why they would put Donut down there is anyone’s guess –but my estimation would be that he was from there closer to getting out to their vehicle. Their vehicles after all were parked in peril if and when the fire changed. No one knows why they did not park them farther back in a safer area, but then you would have a half mile to a mile longer hike.
So he was more of a lookout for the equipment than the men who actually could see the fire better than he and were safer at their position with the black very near to retreat to.
Bringing this in from Chapter XXII, so we can see how/what WTKTT responds.
“John McCabe says
July 20, 2016 at 11:53 pm
Wow… you consider yourself an ‘investigator,’ yet speculate in such a biased manner of capitalizating certain words and oozing with passive aggressiveness– you sir are certainly far from a truth seeker. I am blown away by your sick obsession of such a tragedy that I can only think you have the exact chemical embalance as a serial killer. Do you have friends? Family? Children? Anything? Or do you spend every waking moment thinking about the death of others who did have a life filled with caring people and actual things to do? If you are truly someone who wants to ‘KNOW THE TRUTH’ then confront the people involved in person. Don’t hide behind your computer stalking innocent individuals you have never met, obsessing about their everyday lives, speculating about how they spend every second of their day, when you don’t have the Goddamn balls to face them in reality.”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342431
Already responded, last chapter, where comment first appeared…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342495
To save a ‘click’… here is the response I made just shortly after that post appeared back near the end of Chapter 22…
———————————————————————————-
Reply to John McCabe post on July 20, 2016 at 11:53 pm
Mr. McCabe… THANK YOU for taking the time to participate in this ongoing PUBLIC discussion of a Historic National Tragedy.
Do you, yourself, have any thoughts/opinions on what the real “Lessons to Learn” from this tragedy might be… in order to try and ( as much as humanly possible ) PREVENT such a terrible thing from ever happening AGAIN?
————————————————————————————
if you did not catch this—
Mayless says
JULY 16, 2016 AT 11:35 PM
Easy to quarterback when you weren’t there, or never been on a crew, not “fearless and courages” again easy for you to say sitting behind a desk I find this article very disrespectful to their memory. Come and do some time on a shot crew then you could talk till then keep your quarterback opinion to yourself
http://www.investigativemedia.com/questions-remain-three-years-after-yarnell-hill-fire-disaster/
Forum poster Muzzy’s response is worth a reprint over here…
On July 22, 2016 at 10:00 am, ‘Muzzy’ replied to ‘Mayless’…
I’m sorry you feel this way. Please be aware that many who contribute comments to the discussion on this site are current and past WLFFs, including several IHC superintendents. Many of us are citizens of the west who have lost homes or loved ones to fire, some are all of the above. Our purpose here is to find a way for the truth to be told, without hiding or embellishment, with the ultimate goal of creating rational wildland policies that balance the desires of citizens to live in and enjoy our wildlands without endangering the lives of FFs or the wildlands themselves.
I think I speak for every blog regular in saying that a FF becomes a hero the moment he or she steps up to fight a fire, no reservations or exceptions. Many of us suspect, though, that fire officials hide behind our respect for the dead to prevent an honest assessment of what went wrong. These officials are not honoring the memories of the fallen, but rather protecting themselves and their organizations from scrutiny.
Those of us who study fire policy, and especially entrapments, are saddened to see the same story repeated generation after generation. I personally hope that this group is the beginning of a movement for change. I hope that you will stick around and add to the conversation, as the more disparate voices we hear, the more successful we will be.
On July 22, 2016 at 6:12 pm, ‘WantsToKnowTheTruth’ replied to ‘Muzzy’…
Well said, Muzzy.
US Forestry employee and ‘Safety Researcher’ Dr. Ivan Pupulidy ( who is the author of the ‘new’ USFS ‘Accident Investigation Protocol’ that REPLACES the former “Special Accident Investigation Protocol” that was used to investigate the Yarnell tragedy ) recently called for an END to all the SECRECY that USFS and other State Forestry agencies normally use to ‘cover up’ what actually happened when there is any kind of ‘accident’.
Wildfire Today
Article Title: USFS to use NEW ‘Serious Accident Review system
Published: August 7, 2014 – By Bill Gabbert
http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/08/07/usfs-to-use-new-serious-accident-review-system/
From that August, 2014 article…
———————————————————————–
Ivan Pupulidy called us to say that he was the author of the new protocol. Presently he is the Acting Program Manager for Human Factors Risk Management Research Development and Application for the USFS’ Rocky Mountain Research Station. In September he will be the Director of the USFS’ new Office of Learning.
———————————————————————–
On April 10, 2015, Dr. Ivan Pupulidy also made some PUBLIC comments during the following PUBLIC discussion between other Type 1 IHC Superintendents about the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ and what these other Type 1 IHC Superintendents called the “BOTCHED investigation of the Yarnell Hill Fire”…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-336612
Type 1 IHC Superintendent Don Feser said ( during this PUBLIC discussion )…
“What I have read regarding Yarnell doesn’t pass the SMELL test.”
And USFS employee Dr. Ivan Pupulidy ( and author of the new USFS accident investigation protocol ) said…
“When will we give up SECRETS to keep our friends ALIVE?”
Add Dr. Ivan Pupulidy to the list of heroes that are working to save wild land fire fighter lives. Whew, did the FS and State hide the GMHS story behind a wall of pink elephant balloons and the black hole of redactions. The public has ate it up but too many good men of intelligence have pricked the balloons and are beginning to throw light on the redactions and omissions of truths.
Reply to ‘Mayless’ post on July 16, 2016 at 11:35 pm
>> Mayless said…
>>
>> Easy to quarterback when you weren’t there, or never been on a crew.
It’s not a football game.
19 men burned to death during a cross-country ‘bushwhack’ on the floor of a BLIND box canyon, full of ultra-dry, EXPLOSIVE unburned fuel, with no ‘lookout’, at the height of the burn cycle after having left the ‘safe black’ where they had a better ‘view’ of the fire than anyone else there except for the people in the airplanes.
It was ( and hopefully will REMAIN ) “The Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefighting”.
>> Mayless said…
>>
>> I find this article very disrespectful to their memory.
What could possibly be more ‘disrespectful’ to their ‘memory’ than NOT making every possible effort to find out EXACTLY what happened… and WHY?
Do you think these men would WANT anyone else to suffer the same fate, if it was ( in any way ) possible to find out why THEY did and then try to make SURE it never happens again?
Only a small subset of the ‘family members’ have given up on wanting to know as much as possible about why their loved ones perished.
The others ( equally important ) still DO want to KNOW.
Yes Mayless was pretty much clueless. When you do not have the information people that have followed this site have, your cognition runs low and your opinion remains skewed. Good study of the situation, a look at the many redactions, threats to testimony, and other evidence brings us back to Dr. Pupuity, et. al., A simple hike to the site and through the GMHS route with any experienced wild land fire fighter would give Mayless a better outlook on why the truth will save future wildland fire fighter lives—even clueless civilians can learn from this incident.
Someone said 85% of wild land arson fires are from wild land fire fighters. I do not know where that figure comes from, I think RTS may have posted that. But does that make that wild land arsonist a hero if he goes out and gets killed fighting his own fire?
Further, if the investigators are handing the public one set of investigative reports (those they want out) but keeping documents and reports that bear badly against wild land fighter reputations and purposely omitting testimonies of such experienced and elite wild land fire fighters such as RTS and Provencio who had been on fires with GMHS crews and observed their actions, then it begs the question are they also hiding the facts that these lightening strikes are considered a God thing not to be disturbed and allowed to go as long as possible, even if in a very extreme wild land fire danger such as happened in Yarnell on Friday, June 28, 2013.
Might they also be setting fires purposely and secretly to clear areas considered to be hazardous or needing burn offs. For instance, if perhaps the Yarnell incident was one of those cases, would the deaths of those 19 now be a man caused situation–something that the Honchos know better be hidden, redacted, and smoothed over before someone gets held accountable.