Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX and Chapter XXI.
© Copyright 2016 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
There is some confusion as to what I think of Eric Marsh. So…just to be clear, I don’t believe Mr. Marsh was a murderer. I do however, firmly believe Mr. Marsh was clearly guilty of 17 counts of manslaughter according to Arizona law.
I believe that because I can read and comprehend the English language at a competent level. If you can do the same, then either you will agree with me, or you are a person who lives in denial and wants the world to be as you want it to be, rather than how it really is.
Now…both the police and prosecutors have enormous duscreation, we can even say they have complete discretion, as to whether to investigate and subsequently charge a person with any crime or not. But just because a person is never charged with a crime, certainly does not mean they are not guilty of that crime, it just means they are lucky or beyond the reach of the law…like being dead.
I am also a reasonable person, so if anyone can read the following law and explain why Mr. Marsh is not guilty of 17 counts of manslaughter, I would certainly like to read it. Othwise, there is no doubt in my mind nor should there be any doubt in yours, that the acts of both Mr. Marsh and Jesse Steed leading up to the deaths of their crew clearly and squarely meet the very definition of, “Recklessly causing the death of another person.”
If deliberately violating almost all of the rules and guidelines of wildland firefighting at the same time isn’t reckless and against repeated warnings not to, I don’t know what reckless is. I didn’t write the law, shooting the messenger won’t change the facts…or the law. And for that I am deeply sorry, I wish I could.
https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/01103.htm
13-1103. Manslaughter; classification
A. A person commits manslaughter
1. Recklessly causing the death of another person; or
2. Committing second degree murder as prescribed in section 13-1104, subsection A upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion resulting from adequate provocation by the victim; or
3. Intentionally providing the physical means that another person uses to commit suicide, with the knowledge that the person intends to commit suicide; or
4. Committing second degree murder as prescribed in section 13-1104, subsection A, paragraph 3, while being coerced to do so by the use or threatened immediate use of unlawful deadly physical force upon such person or a third person which a reasonable person in his situation would have been unable to resist; or
5. Knowingly or recklessly causing the death of an unborn child by any physical injury to the mother.
B. An offense under subsection A, paragraph 5 of this section applies to an unborn child in the womb at any stage of its development. A person shall not be prosecuted under subsection A, paragraph 5 of this section if any of the following applies:
1. The person was performing an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on the pregnant woman’s behalf, has been obtained or for which the consent was implied or authorized by law.
2. The person was performing medical treatment on the pregnant woman or the pregnant woman’s unborn child.
3. The person was the unborn child’s mother.
C. Manslaughter is a class 2 felony.
Wow–Thanks Gary! Well said and written from a long time professional in criminal investigations and with a long history of working and managing wild fire crews. That explanation of what is reasonable in fair play and justice should be penned to every wild land fire fighter walls in big print to remind those that are prone to take careless action risking lives just to protect structures might not be a wise option.
I had a long phone talk with Joy today and despite her health conditions after long exposure to the orange poisons claimed as necessity to kill forest fires and put out human lives, she was her usual positve self. She had said that people tend to loose memory of events in about ten years–this being about 8 since the deaths of the GMHS crew. However, we will never forget the tragedy since we stood on that two track at the exact spot only moments before that crew of 18 descended down into the manzanita trap to be killed by careless direction of their bosses. So as I read Gary’s notes about the incident, even though it brings a sadness, truth is the only thing that will prevent future deaths of young heroes that did not deserve to die from needless and careless procedures avoiding all good sense and safety measures. Those heroes will forever remain in our memories.
Also, we had a three way conversation including Scottie Briggs. He is about to wind up his true documentary of the Yarnell incident–I thing he has for many years been gathering evidence, interviewing and working with Joy and others in the wild land fire fighting community to get details along with filming to make a professional presentation for public viewing. It will be a fresh and true view without the political and agenda influence so people will finally get a filmed documentary with no holds barred to truth. It behooves anyone that has information important to a documentary to contact Joy or Scottie so that information might be added. Forensic presentation can be helped with the what might seem to be the most insignificant evidence. Omission is often commission in a crime and this tragedy has the magnitude of being one of the worst and likely the worst of the century in wild land fire fighter avoidable disasters.
It was nice to see your State Senator Karen Fenn working with others to get the political mess and screwed up voting system corrected. Too many of those politicians work for themselves and not the people–Pelochi making millions off the stocks on Tesla looks to me like a conflict of interest–but then I did not like Trump particularly for President, yet in the end he did do some work for the people. But the worst of it is when elections are rigged and whether I liked him or not, he was the democratic choice and ought not to be cheated. But politics and shiney white teeth frozen on a political mouth that opens always lets out a host of flies. May God Bless the Country and those true heroes that stand firm and for the people. Slainte
**
** NEW CHAPTER XXIII ( 23 ) HAS BEEN STARTED
Here’s a direct link to the new Chapter XXIII ( 23 ) of this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/
YARNELL FIRE NUMBER 3
YEAH.
my cell got smashed yesterday but I got an unusual text- I thought it was OLD so I called the number because it use to have name tied to number but the cell drop screwed my cell…anyways it was a text at 3:13pm when a local called fire dept and the fire dept DID NOT KNOW about smoke/fire in the hills NE at 2pm…wasn’t 4 million enough?
keep you posted…maybe Alan Sinclair’s time making movie will be on pause to come handle another fire…heading to fire dept now…
Alan Sinclair is assigned to the ‘Fuller’ fire at the moment.
He MAY have only been ‘on set’ back on July 11 and 12 just to watch his son, Ethan Sinclair, play one of the FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
In other words… no ‘contracted’ ongoing ‘commitment’ to the ‘FILLUM’.
Nothing showing up online about any new ‘fire’ in Yarnell. Not yet, anyway.
Nothing yet. I went to asses it by text locations… One near the church and one near five miles out. I called yfd and got message machine requesting call back on a 2pm call the chief received on a fire and I will be adding this to a request so need new FOIA form and its followup to this call because peeples valley FD and contracted dispatcher heard nothing on frequency for this area today. Man Hall and Whittaker are having a beautiful third and final round on ufc. I had to call and cancel out a surgeon… Based on their fabricated doc notes but all she added that did not match my sound recorded visit but what she added was a total cover her ass if surgery went wrong but never happened… I don’t care if she claims to be the best if you can lie as simple as first visit get to know and ready for surgery than what would you do if you foul up surgery…sure hate when people have angles and agendas and lies to make sure they are clear…God will handle them but they won’t cut on me…is our world just a bullshit or do I seem to draw it in…???
Muzzy says
JULY 21, 2016 AT 7:14 PM
So Gary,
I read (can’t remember where) of at least two IHCs that prided themselves on their diverse membership. Was I dreaming?
And I say, No…you are probably just confused by the alphabet soup of letters for all of these agencies, USFS, BLM, NPS, BIA, USF&WS. All of these wildland firefighters all look alike to YOU PEOPLE but there are HUGE differences between the primary federal agencies with wildland firefighting responsibilities.
There are also very deep divides and interagency prejudices that rival the very worst racial issues that divide our country…most of them are fully justified. BUT…I would have to write a book (gee, now there is an idea) to explain what those are, the reasons for them, and all of the nuances in between those reasons that would fully explain them.
But…back to what you are asking about. The USFS is like the military…it is generally color blind and a true equal opportunity employer as long as you aren’t a woman or gay, black, brown, white and every shade in between is okay…just as long as you are male…and straight.
The BIA…not so much. Their agency is BUILT upon a sold foundation of complete and total Congressional, Judicial and Executive Branch approved racial discrimination that not only favors Native Americans, but hires ONLY (almost always, almost no exceptions) Native Americans.
IF you want to know what kind of problems this policy CAN lead to,,,read this comment and multiply the problem times an entire federal agency at every level. And I do love my Native American brothers and sisters, but I am still THAT GUY!
And of course, anytime you severely limit you pool of qualified candidates…you will accomplish two big things right away. You will hire only THOSE people and you WILL NOT get the best people and sometimes you will get only those people who are in completely over their heads and pose a real danger to themselves and the community they are supposed to be serving from their first day on the job.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342506
Any more questions? If you have them, ask someone else.
Oh…and one more thing just to show you how much I do love my Native American brothers and sisters, the bottom of the wildland firefighting barrel is without a doubt comprised of almost all Anglo people in…the National Park Service.
They are “Numba 10”, as my old Vietnam vet crewmen used to say, except for those who came from the USFS. AND Native Americans have a long and proud tradition of fighting wildfires in this nation and many of them are “Numba 1.”
I was raised on the Happy Jack (AKA Hopi Jack) Hotshots by a Native American crew boss who was one of the best and much of our crew was Native American. In addition, our district AFMO was Native American as was almost all of the rest of the district fire personnel back in the day. They were all some of the best who ever saddled up to hit the fire line.
I am going to stop writing now before I go to far. Whoops….too late.
Thanks Gary,
How do you keep the players straight without a scorecard?
Well…after so many years of total immersion, it becomes a way of life. And when I said, “Any more questions? If you have them, ask someone else.” I just meant more questions about the third rail…race relations and interagency politics to a lesser degree.
The Prescott Fire Department of the GMIHC where just the tip of the iceberg and it really gets complicated when you go below the federal level to the myriad of other agencies who now play the game.
It is all very tribal or maybe like the Game of Thrones? Although I. don’t think I have the cable package that has that show on it because I have never seen it…so that is a real shot in the dark while searching for an appropriate analogy.
Bob said,
Bob Powers says
JULY 22, 2016 AT 7:18 AM
You are a real case of I am important and know it all.
But if you check Woody wood pecker holds a copy right that will put you in court if you use it without a release to you. Yap its like Smokey.
I expect you to be proud of your logo as I am of mine
and I have two others that I worked with.
CHILAO and SWATOOTH.
I am as proud to have served on all three.
OH we were building hot line and chasing the flames while your crews were MOPPING UP.
Our LOGO was recognized nation wide I don’t even remember yours. Burnt trees that’s all you saw because they brought you in for mop up. Latrine duty ???????
And I say, “I really do love you Bob…in a manly kind of way, not an Oak Grove Hotshot kind of way.”
Just a game of hot shot jabs. No insults intended. Bump up, Bump up, Coming Through Coming Through. Love you to in a hot shot way.
Hay have you noticed some crews have changed their Logos to new ones.
No…I can’t even wrap my head around the fact that there are now over 100 hotshot crews from so many different agencies, much less learn their names or logos. I was raised with the supreme sense of superiority that ONLY the USFS should have hotshot crews.
**
** FISH OUT OF WATER
Repy to Gary Olson post on July 21, 2016 at 2:02 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I am going to stick with my opinion that the name, the “Blue Ridge Hotshots”
>> is in the public domain as well as the work Brian Frisby did on behalf of
>> the American tax payers on the Yarnell Hill Fire while he was on the
>> government payroll.
>>
>> So… the big question remains, why all the changes?
>>
>> And why the fuck couldn’t they have come up with a better logo than a fish
>> jumping out of a river for a bad ass U.S. Forest Service Hotshot Crew and
>> saved that logo for a movie about an anglers retreat or bed and breakfast
>> in a “River Runs Through It” or whatever?
>>
>> The only thing worse would have been a Woody Woodpecker with a shovel
>> over his head chasing some flames with a face… am I right?
Well… maybe the (quote) “only thing worse” would be something along the lines of going to all that trouble to avoid any legal conflict(s) with the REAL “Blue Ridge Hotshots” Type 1 IHC organization’s name/logo ownership rights… and then just STEALING your FAKE logo for your FAKE Type 1 IHC Crew from yet ANOTHER legitimate and REAL Type 1 IHC Hotshot organization.
As in… the “Salmon River Hotshots”, based in California.
Here is a PUBLIC photo of the ACTUAL logo for the ACTUAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ showing a ‘river’ in the bottom half of the logo and a ‘Salmon’ jumping out of the river ( EXACTLY like the ‘made up’ logo for the movie’s FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ )…
The ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ logo is the first one on the far left in the top row on the following page…
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/558446422516728833/
And ( once again ), here is a PUBLIC photo posted from ‘the set’ of the ‘FILLUM’ showing their FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo on the ‘Helmets’ sitting on the bumper of a vehicle…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHx_XUIju__/?taken-by=darineppich&hl=en
The ‘movie people’ even used the same BLUE and YELLOW SKY-BACKGROUND colors for their FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo as the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ logo.
You. Just. Can’t. Make. This. Stuff. Up.
I think if this 55-60+ MILLION dollar ‘FILLUM’ actually makes any money ( or even if it doesn’t? )… the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ in California should at least get a couple of new ATVs out of the deal.
Here’s another PUBLIC photo posted from ‘the set’ of the ‘FILLUM’ with another view of the LOGO they are using for their FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
Alan Sinclair’s own ‘relationship’ ( if any ) to the ‘FILLUM’ is still not known.. but he WAS somehow able to wrangle a part for his own son in the ‘FILLUM’.
Ethan Sinclair is playing one of the FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
Left to right in the following PUBLIC photo…
Alan Sinclair, Josh Brolin, Ethan Sinclair, Alan Sinclair’s wife Colleen Dolly Sinclair
Ethan Sinclair is ‘in costume’ and has on WFF-issue olive drab pants and a ‘dark-blue’
T-Shirt with the ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo on it…
https://twitter.com/ASINCLAIR13/status/752693890201690113
** THE REAL ‘SALMON RIVER HOTSHOTS
And here’s a PUBLIC ‘group photo’ of the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ posted in May of 2015…
https://www.instagram.com/p/2sF9C7qeWb/
Whoops…I didn’t mean to offend the Salmon River Hotshots, but I would have put some flames or black burnt trees in the logo. But…I was always a Go Big or Go Home kind of guy.
That really does look like a bunch of guys in that photo I do NOT want to piss off. The more I look at it, the better I really like the Salmon River Hotshots logo with the beautiful salmon jumping out of that gorgeous river.
WTKTT says,”The ‘movie people’ even used the same BLUE and YELLOW SKY-BACKGROUND colors for their FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo as the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ logo.”
But the differences are even greater. The movie logo is much more simple and graphic, black fish on a light ground, three bold stripes. The Salmon River logo has way too much detail to read at 20 paces. In addition, their helmets are a bright blue. This will make it easier for the viewer to distinguish the two crews during the action scenes. I know you old hands can tell which
crew is which, even in those group pix where each guy is as big as a flake of dandruff, but to the rest of us, those logos are a muddy mess. Add in the beat up helmets smudged with soot and we’re lost. That’s why the good guys always wore white hats.
Now, they could have kept the name of BR, but they would have wanted to simplify and brighten their logo and helmets. Can you imagine the hew and cry that would result? Better to create a new unit and only piss off a few curmudgeons on a blog in a corner of the Internet ?
You probably hit on the reasons for the change. I think it is called “artistic license.”
Really, it’s called knowing the players without a scorecard!
Reply to Muzzy post on July 22, 2016 at 7:53 am
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> WTKTT says,”The ‘movie people’ even used the same BLUE
>> and YELLOW SKY-BACKGROUND colors for their FAKE ‘Blue
>> River Hotshots’ logo as the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ logo.”
>>
>> But the differences are even greater. The movie logo is much
>> more simple and graphic, black fish on a light ground, three
>> bold stripes. The Salmon River logo has way too much
>> detail to read at 20 paces.
Not an EXACT match ( detail-wise ), fer sure… but forget even the COLOR choices
and the other ‘small details’ for a moment and you are still left with…
** The REAL “Salmon River Hotshots”
** LOGO is a Salmon jumping out of a River.
** The FAKE “Blue River Hotshots” ( created by the ‘movie people’ )
** LOGO is a Salmon jumping out of a River.
Common denominator: The LOGO is a Salmon jumping out of a River.
If push came to shove… I think the ‘movie people’ really WOULD owe the REAL “Salmon River Hotshots” enough to maybe buy a coupla new ATVs.
The REAL point ( as with many of the things being discovered about this TRIBUTE ‘fillum’ )… is one of ‘competence’ and ‘attention to detail’ ( or lack thereof.
It means the ‘movie people’, who were already choosing to change HISTORY and change the NAME of the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to the “Blue River Hotshots” didn’t even lift a finger to CHECK and see if the FAKE logo ‘theme’ that they were designing was already ( technically ) “in use” by any other REAL Type 1 IHC Hotshot crew.
I really did think these movie ‘props’ people were BETTER than that.
Reply to Gary Olson post on July 20, 2016 at 3:17 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
> The U.S. government does not have any intellectual property rights
>> except that that are specifically provided for by federal law.
>> For example, Smokey the Bear and his likeness, the U.S, Forest
>> Service shield, the NPS arrowhead or the BLM triangle are
>> all protected.
>>
>> Some things they let slide, but just try and use Smokey Bear’s
>> likeness etc. in your business or hobby and you will find out
>> just how serious the federal government takes those things… as
>> in felony charges.
You mean, like, as the top level BANNER on your non-US Forestry affiliated ‘Foundation’ page asking for ‘donations’?…
Something like THIS… ( Smokey The Bear reading mail… )
The Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters…
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/
Here is a direct link to that ‘Smokey the Bear reading his mail’ photo currently being used by that ‘Foundation’ for it’s own top-level BANNER image…
NOTE: It even SAYS ‘Smokey’ on his HATBAND…
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12523206_961193240640526_3797220969372260465_n.jpg?oh=9d86d407d160c94704f411ce858c0e64&oe=57EE8DC1
According to Wikipedia… the image of ‘Smokey the Bear’ isn’t just ‘copyrighted’ by the Federal Government, it is actually protected from unauthorized use by it’s OWN frickin’ special LAW… the ‘Smokey Bear Act of 1952’…
————————————————————————
The fictional character Smokey Bear, created by the art critic Harold Rosenberg, is administered by three entities: the United States Forest Service, the National Association of State Foresters, and the Ad Council. Smokey Bear’s name and image are protected by U.S. federal law, the Smokey Bear Act of 1952 (16 U.S.C. 580 (p-2); 18 U.S.C. 711).
————————————————————————
You cannot PRETEND you are associated with the ‘US Forestry Service’… if you are NOT.
And here is just ONE small passage from the actual FEDERAL LAW named…
The Smokey Bear Act of 1952 (16 U.S.C. 580 (p-2); 18 U.S.C. 711).…
From…
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsmrs_100517.pdf
———————————————————————————
Smokey Bear Act
Act of May 23, 1952
(P.L 82-359, Ch. 327, 66 Stat. 92;18 U.S.C 711; 16 U.S.C. 580p-2)
Sec. 1.
Whoever, except as authorized under rules and regulations issued by the Secretary of Agriculture after consultation with the Association of State Foresters and the Advertising Council, knowingly and for profit manufactures, reproduces, or USES the character “ Smokey Bear”, originated by the Forest Service, United States Department of Agriculture, in cooperation with the Association of State Foresters and the Advertising Council for use in public information concerning the prevention of forest fires, or any facsimile thereof, or the name ” Smokey Bear” shall be FINED not more than $250 or IMPRISONED not more then six months or BOTH.
———————————————————————————
FINE… IMPRISONMENT…. or BOTH
Again… you CANNOT try to make people think you are associated with the US Forestry Service ( by using its protected ICONS and IMAGERY )… when you are NOT.
It’s ILLEGAL.
I am pretty sure that is what I told you. There are no intellectual property rights for the U.S. Government except those that are specifically provided for by law…but for those that are…they take VERY seriously and the enforcement is very real.
**
** THE FAKE “MATT’S SALOON”
Joy covered some of this i her post just below… but here is some more ‘detail’ and some ‘proof’ that this TRIBUTE film is probably going to give ‘Prescott’ a ‘clear miss’…
Another ‘Question’ about the ‘FILLUM’ got answered today.
Q: Will they be shooting any scenes in Prescott itself?
A: Apparently NOT. It’s now been ‘confirmed’ that they have just selected various parts of downtown Sante Fe, New Mexico and they are just going to ‘pretend’ that is ‘downtown Prescott’.
I know a lot of people were probably EXPECTING this TRIBUTE film crew to show in Prescott at SOME point… for SOMETHING… but it looks like they ( the movie people ) really are just going to give Prescott a ‘clear miss’ for this TRIBUTE film.
http://www.abqjournal.com/810774/evangelos-is-back-in-the-movies.html
From the article…
———————————————————————-
PHOTO: A ‘made up’ sign that says “Matt’s Saloon” installed over the exiting “Evangelo’s Cocktail Lounge” sign at the corner of Galisteo and San Francisco street in downtown Sante Fe, New Mexico
SANTA FE, N.M. — Evangelo’s Cocktail Lounge, the downtown Santa Fe institution at Galisteo and San Francisco, has become “Matts Saloon.”
The temporary makeover is for a movie… “Granite Mountain”.
It stars Josh Brolin, Jeff Bridges (who had a scene filmed in Evangelo’s for his Academy Award winning role in “Crazy Heart”) and Jennifer Connelly,
Santa Fe stands in for Prescott, Ariz., for the movie.
A replica old-timey advertisement mentioning Prescott has been painted on a wall across from “Matts Saloon.”
———————————————————————-
There actually IS a REAL ( famous ) “Matt’s Saloon” in downtown Prescott… and it actually IS right there on ‘Whiskey Row’ by the Prescott Courthouse square and across the street from the ‘Prescott Brewing Company’.
And they ( the movie people ) have apparently gotten permission to use the ACTUAL “Matt’s Saloon” sign from Prescott ( with a longhorn skeleton head mounted in the middle ) for their FAKE version of the place there in downtown Sante Fe. ( or maybe they did NOT get permission and are just using a duplicate of the sign, anyway? ).
The website for the REAL “Matt’s Saloon” on Whiskey Row in Prescott, AZ is here..
Matt’s Saloon (928) 771-8788 – 112 S Montezuma St., Prescott, Arizona
http://www.mattssaloon.com/home.php
“Matt’s Saloon” on Whiskey Row in Prescott was mentioned many times in the memorials and obituaries for some of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Just one example ( mentioning deceased GM Hotshot Kevin Woyjeck )…
MEN’S JOURNAL
Article Title: The Last Battle of the Granite Mountain Hotshots
Author: Josh Eells
h t t p : //w w w .mensjournal.com/features/articles/norman-reedus-the-wild-one-w209199
—————————————————————————
Aside from the occasional twinge of loneliness, Kevin Woyjeck was having a blast working as a Granite Mountain Hotshot. On his nights off, he’d go two-stepping at a honky-tonk called Matt’s Saloon, on Whiskey Row in downtown Prescott.
—————————————————————————
And ( as Joy was pointing out below ) there HAVE also been several ‘casting calls’ posted on the New Mexico Film Office’s PUBLIC ‘Bulletin Board’ for ‘extras’ who can TWO-STEP to show up on the set for work TODAY and TOMORROW ( and Friday ) there in Sante Fe…
—————————————————————————
11:12 am July 18, 2016
Granite Mountain needs couples who know how to two-step to work on Granite Mountain on Wednesday and Thursday evening in Santa Fe. Send photos, height, weight, and phone number to castingabq (at) gmail.com with the subject “TWO-STEP.”
9:58 am July 18, 2016
EG Casting is looking for young Caucasian cowboy types (especially women) between 18-35 to work on a scene on Granite Mountain this Wednesday and Thursday (July 20 – 21) in the Santa Fe Area. It is a paid gig, and will likely go late into the night. If you own any western style clothing and you fit into this age range, feel free to submit. ONLY submit if you have NOT worked on this particular film yet. Send photo, height, weight, and phone number to castingabq (at) gmail.com with the subject “Bar.”
12:50 pm July 20, 2016
Granite Mountain, a feature film with Josh Brolin, Jeff Bridges and Miles Teller is looking for pretty girls to work in a scene tomorrow, Thursday July 21. Great bar dancing scene, good camera time. Email a photo with height, weight and phone number to castingabq (at) gmail.com. Put Pretty Girl in the subject line.
8:05 pm July 20, 2016
Granite Mountain starring Josh Brolin and Jeff Bridges is looking for men 18 to 36 to work in a bar scene with a bunch of pretty girls on Friday,July 22, an evening/night call. These are paid positions. Email a photo with height, weight and phone number to castingabq (at) gmail.com. Put MEN in the subject line.
—————————————————————————
Followup…
Again… just a little ‘more detail’ backing up what Joy already posted below.
A little ‘tea shop’ that is across the street from this ‘Evangelo’s Cocktail Lounge’ in downtown Sante Fe ( which the movie people have turned into the FAKE “Matt’s Saloon” from downtown Prescott ) confirmed that the movie was ‘shooting’ there today.
The movie crew apparently took over the entire street and this little ‘tea shop’ put a sign out front offering ‘Free Tea’ to the “Granite Mountain” movie people.
https://twitter.com/ArtfulTea/status/755851201162252288
PUBLIC Twitter Photo caption says…
———————————————
ArtfulTea – July 19, 2016 – 2:00 PM
Filming #GraniteMountain on our street.
Cast & crew invited in for iced tea.
You, too, Jeff Bridges!
———————————————
Sign ( in the photo ) says…
———————————————-
WELCOME “GRANITE MOUNTAIN” FILM CREW!
Complimentary Ice Cold Tea Inside!
You too, Jeff!
———————————————-
Wow… you consider yourself an ‘investigator,’ yet speculate in such a biased manner of capitalizating certain words and oozing with passive aggressiveness– you sir are certainly far from a truth seeker. I am blown away by your sick obsession of such a tragedy that I can only think you have the exact chemical embalance as a serial killer. Do you have friends? Family? Children? Anything? Or do you spend every waking moment thinking about the death of others who did have a life filled with caring people and actual things to do? If you are truly someone who wants to ‘KNOW THE TRUTH’ then confront the people involved in person. Don’t hide behind your computer stalking innocent individuals you have never met, obsessing about their everyday lives, speculating about how they spend every second of their day, when you don’t have the Goddamn balls to face them in reality.
John McCabe says
JULY 20, 2016 AT 11:53 PM: If you are truly someone who wants to ‘KNOW THE TRUTH’ then confront the people involved in person.
Good to see John here. Glad you popped on…Vow to keep 15-year-old John McCabe’s murder a secret lasted 42 years…your name made me think of that poor soul who the loved ones and investigators and just every day taxpaying civilians like us folks here who had to wait FORTY TWO years to have the answers come out about little old John…so there are way too many that ARE thankful for the efforts to bring out as much information to the world not ourselves or a select click of folks but THE WORLD so the world can get the information as it arrives and properly assess the fires well knowing that we all come from diverse lifestyles and backgrounds and everyone will perceive it different. Remember John, this is a pattern and not only 19 men died…the many losses on other fallen as well here locally due to the slurry drops and the NH3 and its trade secrets…that is reality…and I have seen a very horrific terrifying serial killer upfront (even had the prosecutor alert me way ahead of time of their release from prison) and the deception of a serial killers ways and I do not feel WWTKTT has been deceptive and its your opinion but it is not factual to make an assessment like such without details or sources or resources and for the most part if WWTKTT did not do some areas the way that person does we would not have reached some areas in clarity. NOW for confronting the people in person…I have tried that…even been in a court setting tied to the fire aftermath when its never been a place I ever been or think anyone should be in this modern world and I really left alot of documents out of that room so I would not throw people under the bus…http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mh_FilGHEI8J:www.examiner.com/article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us…we live in a town and county where I was made aware is set up very tight knit and yet I have alot of health concerns and even that I am dealing with liars….you don’t want to lie to me…I will research and call it out…purge style or as I get it…but no way are you John going to tell me who eye-witnessed that fire-ME… both fires and think I am going to allow this just keep happening to more lives. I am deeply sorry we have human lives lost and their loved ones who can get sensitive or jump on us for keep looking but no way is it going to be allowed to just be GOD HAD THE PLAN FOR THEM when too many times there are just too many folks coming to me thanking us for the efforts here on IM…you cannot imagine how many peak here with their hand over their eyes but still read…alot in my opinion should not come here but their choice…I actually have tried to pull away at times myself…I am not obsessed or addicted to the site yet I do ramble…and I do not know where I would be if I did not have a free area to share how these fires have affected me that I have sold off alot of assets to make sure the loved ones were taken care of or the homeowners…the people that God led to me in all this…those people…they have to MOVE FORWARD to survive but they are sooooooooooooo thankful for IM page and for a place where the truth is STILL being seeked…NOW I have the balls to face any area in my life…I lead it with pure heart…I have always seen people twist and screw along the way when I touch an area that one thinks should not be touched.
I am sure if you came here telling us your married life and kids and your LinkedIN…wwtktt may return you the favor but when you come as JOHN MCCABE where there are at least 100 of them in the world ranging in age 35-106 scattered all over…you look my name up sir you find just a few; some REAL like the lady in Florida and Wisconsin and some that uses my id as I check my annual report…so really glad you stopped by and hope you are not one of those POP-INS and are here to remain…enough rambles but I do not support this man’s comment comparing WWTKTT to a serial killer…very distasteful and maybe that was your dig…maybe you feel WWTKTT has been distasteful but if so NAME THE AREAS direct versus just popping in and recently reading the page because that screws alot of people up…POP INS…stay awhile…or do not waste your energy and stay off…but pop-ins do not add up to much in life…except Santa Claus or the tooth fairy…
Joy found out that there was a John McCabe murdered at the age of 15 and then it took 42 years to solve the murder. That indeed is sad since closure was withheld from his family and friends, perhaps some died never knowing who killed that young person. You see,
I know the feeling and sometimes watch America’s most wanted. John Walsh lost his 6 year old son and has never gotten a clue as to the rotton felon who took that child’s life.
Crimes against people come in many forms. My own son had his arm ripped loose when he was caught up in a winch. You see as a miner I operated those types winches on what is called a slusher bucket. They have a valve and if perchance you get your glove caught up in the winch the second you remove the other hand from the valve control the winch immediately stops. However, those valves at times get defective and need to be replaced. In the case of my son the valve would stick and the winch would continue to run. His screaming as he was being torn apart in the winch brought his supervisor. You can imagine, the supervisor knew Ted was a beginning underwater welder–on his first job. The supervisor knew about the valve, he said he should have replaced it–but neglected to do so. The supervisor would have never hurt my son on purpose, yet he neglected to take care of something that was a real danger–especially to a new person learning on the job. His neglect caused a million dollar settlement, yet the incident eventually became a reason for my son’s death. No amount of money could replace his life, yet because some superintendent did not take safety precautions, he is no longer here. Like John Walsh, there is hardly a day goes by that I don’t think about him, something I am certain the folks that lost loved ones understand.
WTKTT is a hero in discovering details and uncovering redactions to bring out the facts of what caused the deaths of the 19 GMHS crew. He is just one on this site that have worked and watched the true story and reasons the men died unfold. He is not the only one involved–most are retired or ongoing wild land fire fighters who are not happy that the tragedy has been hidden behind a smoke screen to save reputations. Dr. Ted Putnam says that many people just want to keep the blinders on–they rather accept what has been fed them and go on. He is one of the ones who does not accept the story as it has been told. He says it is tragic that people are trying to save face at the expense of future wild land lives. He has 15 years of smoke jumping experience, has investigated wild land fire deaths, such as the 14 that died at Storm King, and as a smoke jumper has actually saved young green wild land fire fighters of the ilk of Donut–when they were about to take action that was certain to cause their deaths. But he is only one among the many well experience wild land fire fighters that are unsettled to the story fed the public–these men have evidence contrary to the story being told by officials.
If you have evidence to clear certain people, John McCabe, please let us have it. Right now we know that Marsh and Steed went against all safety rules called the ten and eighteen. Even the simple version initialed LCES were disregarded. Lookout, communication, escape route, and safety zone as I recollect and if you are a wild land fire fighter you should know how to apply these and why. Your supervisor should not only know these rules but strictly adhere to them. The lives of his men are dependent upon the common sense rules of what are called the ten and eighteen.
When Marsh and Steed totally neglected to follow the rules and risked their mens lives by breaking all of them then we see what I would call a crime. Needlessly and neglectfully killing 17 can not make you a hero. Yet evidence shows that this is exactly what they did. Steed though it is understood did argue with Marsh–he knew the danger, yet for reasons still not revealed we yet can not publicly explain. Donut has withheld information for the longest of time–some he has put out in his book, although he says there is more to be revealed. He, as a green horn wild land fire fighter said the safety rules that keep wild land fighters alive are “Hillbilly”. He figured it was enough to rely on his estimation of things, or the “Greek Gods” above him. They let him down and if it were not for Blue Ridge Brian Frisby showing up on an ATV by accident, our humble friend Donut would be dead with the other GMHS. I think a hangover and sickness allowed him to replace the usual Lookout, another stroke of luck on his part. I never understood why he withheld vital information from the start–perhaps when he lawyered up, the advice was to keep mum–plenty others that had info were told to keep mum as well.
If you condemn, WTKTT–you better add at least a hundred more people that want to get the facts out. I stood there with many of them where the men went down after the fire. I stood there only a short hour or so right at the spot they went down while I watched the raging wild fire take off. Joy wanted to take that route they took–it was deceptive. Those 17 men were killed by their bosses careless actions–sad but true. We keep being fed that this was totally Marsh’s decision to risk their lives for empty structures. I believe there were others insisting he bring his men down despite the risk and breaking of all common sense. Cowboy Rick McKensie, family here for 150 years had told them early that morning to not get caught down there in that manzanita with that fire taking off. But cowboys have lived this country–they know what can be done, and what can not.
Do the granite mountain families risk losing any of their benefits as a result of uncovering the truth of why the men died?
Reply to Diane lomas post on
July, 28 2016, at 12:30 PM
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> Do the granite mountain families
>> risk losing any of their benefits as a
>> result of uncovering the truth of
>> why the men died?
You would think not… but the way things REALLY work ( in Arizona, anyway )… the answer is YES.
There have been a number of credible reports ( some backed up with documentation obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA via valid FOIA requests ) that several of the “family members” have been treated VERY badly… to the point of being denied benefits and/or access to the millions of dollars donated by the public that was supposed to go to ALL ‘family members’.
The ‘Arizona 100 Club’ became the ‘gatekeeper’ for these millions and millions of dollars in donations and THEY have apparently been the ones ‘controlling’ the disbursements only as THEY see fit.
Stay on THEIR ‘good side’… and you possibly receive some of the publicly donated money . Piss THEM off… and you get NOTHING.
There are also credible reports that family members like Marcia .McKee ( deceased hotshot Grant McKee’s mother ) have never even received one red cent of the automatic LODD ( Line Of Duty Death ) benefit guaranteed by LAW.
Marcia McKee was the first to file a ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit on behalf of her son, Grant McKee.
Many other family members eventually did the same thing… but Marcia McKee was the first.
Marcia McKee did not ‘settle’ her lawsuit like other family members did.
Her original ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit is supposedly still ‘on appeal’ along with GWO others… even as of this writing.
Typo in the message above.
‘GWO’ was meant to be ‘TWO’.
Reply to John McCabe post on July 20, 2016 at 11:53 pm
>> John McCabe said…
>>
>> Wow… you consider yourself an ‘investigator,’ yet speculate
>> in such a biased manner of capitalizating certain words and
>> oozing with passive aggressiveness– you sir are certainly far
>> from a truth seeker. I am blown away by your sick obsession
>> of such a tragedy that I can only think you have the exact
>> chemical embalance as a serial killer. Do you have friends?
>> Family? Children? Anything? Or do you spend every waking
>> moment thinking about the death of others who did have a
>> life filled with caring people and actual things to do? If you
>> are truly someone who wants to ‘KNOW THE TRUTH’ then
>> confront the people involved in person. Don’t hide behind
>> your computer stalking innocent individuals you have never
>> met, obsessing about their everyday lives, speculating about
>> how they spend every second of their day, when you don’t
>> have the Goddamn balls to face them in reality.
Mr. McCabe… THANK YOU for taking the time to participate in this ongoing PUBLIC discussion of a Historic National Tragedy.
Do you, yourself, have any thoughts/opinions on what the real “Lessons to Learn” from this tragedy might be… in order to try and ( as much as humanly possible ) PREVENT such a terrible thing from ever happening AGAIN?
Well looks like the hikers may be in the movie…two stepping 🙂
Not as the hikers…
Sonny loves dancing…and he has his acting card…he was in Tank Girl …he came out of the whorehouse in that movie..
Soft giggles.
Granite Mountain, a feature film with Josh Brolin, Jeff Bridges and Miles Teller is looking for pretty girls to work in a scene tomorrow, Thursday July 21. Great bar dancing scene, good camera time.
Granite Mountain starring Josh Brolin and Jeff Bridges is looking for men 18 to 36 to work in a bar scene with a bunch of pretty girls on Friday,July 22, an evening/night call. These are paid positions.
right around here:
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x87185040d353314d:0xa78763cd646fcd2d!2m5!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i100!3m1!7e115!4s//geo2.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid%3DWu1uQdmjpuGJPnQNoy8_cw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.LOCAL_UNIVERSAL.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D130%26h%3D87%26yaw%3D133.10599%26pitch%3D0!5s+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sWu1uQdmjpuGJPnQNoy8_cw
OHI 12:50 pm July 20, 2016
Granite Mountain, a feature film with Josh Brolin, Jeff Bridges and Miles Teller is looking for pretty girls to work in a scene tomorrow, Thursday July 21. Great bar dancing scene, good camera time. Email a photo with height, weight and phone number to [email protected]. Put Pretty Girl in the subject line.
Reply
http://www.oneheadlightink.com/nm-film/casting-calls/comment-page-41/#comment-6457
thank you fans of Taylor
“stepping in the diary room for a peak”
what’s the bar like:
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x87185040d353314d:0xa78763cd646fcd2d!2m5!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i100!3m1!7e115!4s//geo2.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid%3DWu1uQdmjpuGJPnQNoy8_cw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.LOCAL_UNIVERSAL.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D130%26h%3D87%26yaw%3D133.10599%26pitch%3D0!5s+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sWu1uQdmjpuGJPnQNoy8_cw
came up the tea spot again—
let me peak again:
just use above link and scroll and 360 to see inside the bar-
The Matador Bar
OHI 11:12 am July 18, 2016
Granite Mountain needs couples who know how to two-step to work on Granite Mountain on Wednesday and Thursday evening in Santa Fe. Send photos, height, weight, and phone number to [email protected] with the subject “TWO-STEP.”
http://santafe.gaycities.com/bars/1426-the-matador
Looks like they’re looking for new extras:
Granite Mountain feature film is now casting Caucasian men and women to work several days next week in the new movie. Producers are also looking fo rolder men and women who have not worked on the movie yet. Filming will take place next week in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
Casting for Granite Mountain film with Josh Brolin and Jeff Bridges. Need Caucasian men and women (18-30) to work several days next week on Granite Mountain. Also casting people older people, submit if you have NOT worked on GM. Some of the dates will be in and around the SF area. Send a photo, height, weight, and phone number to [email protected] with the subject Friends and Family.
Cheerleader! Cheerleader!! Cheerleader!!!
I am Woodsman NUMBER ONE cheerleader
Here is another link to a fairly comprehensive and well written research paper on the subject of Human Factors influencing the fatalities on the YH Fire, by Peter Vidmar of Trinity University (San Antonio,Texas).
There is a Peter Vidmar that is a Senior Firefighter, Canon City Helitack Crew out of Pueblo, CO.
The author speaks with a fairly keen knowledge and authority on the subject.
The paper is titled: “Framing Tragedy: Rhetorical Strategies and Effects in the Wake of the Yarnell Hill Fire Fatalities.”
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjMvJ3dpYPOAhUCLmMKHbdGAtUQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpetervidmar.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F2%2F6%2F6%2F9%2F26691936%2Fhcommisgranitemountain.docx&usg=AFQjCNHhgpLS7H47PF4XkVVZdwuSsVnbEA&sig2=YDR5X_JJw0nZ2ONlBlVkDg&bvm=bv.127521224,d.cGc&cad=rja
After discussing and then suggesting that “They [GMHS] and many other crews felt pressured not only to produce line, but also place themselves in harms’ way to defend empty structures” and that is why “they likely left the safety of the black so that they may reengage with the fire in the structures around the ranch and in the town of Yarnell.”
He concludes his paper with this regarding Human Factors: “Echoing the feeling of Ted Putnam following the South Canyon Fire, there is not enough organizational focus on the many and varied human factors. It can and should be the place of the academe to offer examples of how they might be considered in novel and useful ways.”
Sometimes I wonder if the country is producing too many educated idiots. It is fine to have a bat hide to hang on your wall–Joy found mine blown into the desert–proof I spent my time in the confines of modern education. But it is quite often the simplest people that have the wisdom sometimes lacking in the educated idiot variety. When Rick McKensie told the GMHS crew on the morning of their demise not to get caught down in that manzanita if that fire is anywhere near, he was using what my Dad used to say was common horse sense. You know that if you get lost and happen to be horse back, give the horse rein–that horse will take you home.
Experience that Rick had as a cowboy and bow hunter working in and around that manzanita made him fully aware of the danger of getting caught up in it. I too have had my share of working in dense manzanita–forget attempting to run through it–it just can’t be done. In fact Joy and I worked our way through that very basin and experienced the density. I call it bear wallow material where about the only thing that can do a good job getting through it is a bear rolling himself through. There were plenty areas so thick you could see where that had happened–but humans do not have the tough hide of a bear and chain sawing through it is a slow process. One thing is certain once in it you certainly want to work your way out–get to that two track was the best option and once there stay on it and get to the other side of the Weavers where there is a deficit of mazanita and you can work yourself down the West side in an upright stance.
The people we hiked all declined to attempt the manzanita patches in the area that had not burned–it was enough for them to see the mess–why go through a briar patch?
If those GMHS were trained by a professional wild land fire fighing school they should get their money back.
Then we consider that they had at first refused and Marsh suggested Blue Ridge–yet eventually gave in to pressure. They were wanted to work near Glen Isla to do their second bidding–structure protection. The fellows above their grade knew they were on a mountain and would be coming downhill with a fire raging that could turn at any time–their own meteorological reports has warned them of 45mph gusts likely to reverse the fire at any time. I saw the storms from top of the Weavers and the two track–I did not need the report to know what was apt to happen. Experience of living the deserts and hills since childhood in tents and outdoors gave me that understanding. Now I wonder if
the idea that mixing of wild land fire fighting and structure protection is a good idea. I don’t see Pulaski’s and garden hoses much help in a wild land fire the magnitude of what we saw that day of June 30, 2013. But as Willis has said, they could not just set there in the black, they wanted to protect structures–thats what they do–which he meant is what they did before being ordered down there.
>> On July 20, 2016 at 11:11 am, Muzzy said…
>>
>> BTW, concerning the question of whether the Donut rescue by BR
>> was accidental or planned, I believe it was planned in that BR
>> knew they would probably have to rescue the crew buggies and
>> other equipment, as had happened on other fires. Frisby was
>> probably more aware of both Donut’s position and what the fire
>> was doing than anyone on the fire, so he “swung by” to see if
>> he could help. That sounds like a PLAN by a guy who didn’t want
>> the hero treatment, just a guy who was doing his job…
>> On July 20, 2016 at 1:33 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) replied…
>>
>> Muzzy…. Thanks for posting this. I have felt this way all along about
>> the BRHS scooping McDonough.
>>
>> I always thought Frisby was a lot more aware and cognizant of the
>> deteriorating fire weather and increasing fire behavior. The GMHS’ and
> their cavalier attitude toward McDonough and his way-too-close trigger
>> point, with no heads up by his own Crew, gave that away.
Muzzy ( and RTS ).
You are both completely WRONG about whether Frisby’s ‘rescue’ of Brendan McDonough had anything to do with Brian Frisby DECIDING to ‘go check on him’ even without being told/asked to do so.
It didn’t ( as per Brian Frisby himself ).
Just a little over an HOUR after Frisby ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan out there near the old-grader as he was on his way out to meet Marsh for that second face-to-face Marsh had requested at 3:26 PM… Brian Frisby himself was RECORDED by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd telling THEM ( Hulburn, Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) that he had (quote) “just happened to stumble upon the lookout”.
We don’t even need any ‘Unit Logs’ or ‘Interviews’ to confirm this.
The RECORDING has Brian Frisby himself SPEAKING and TELLING Hulburd, Clawson and Yowell that he only accidentally ‘stumbled upon the lookout’ as he was driving out to meet Marsh.
Brendan McDonough himself testified that HE ( McDonough ) believed Frisby had been specifically ‘coming to get him’ even before McDonough could even make a request that he do so… and McDonough apparently STILL believes this ‘fantasy’… since he said that is what happened in his own ‘for profit’ BOOK…
…but McDonough is ( and always has been ) MISTAKEN.
That is NOT what happened… and even just a little over an HOUR after ‘the rescue’ we have the actual RECORDING of Brian Frisby himself saying that is NOT what happened.
Just for REFERENCE… here is a ’roundup’ of how this ‘moment’ has been portrayed in all the for-profit BOOKS that have been published so far, followed by ‘the Horse’s Mouth’… and Brian Frisby’s OWN account.
From the ‘books’ ( in the order they have been published )…
Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
———————————————————
Just before the weather update about the wind shift, Marsh had called Frisby requesting another face-to-face meeting. Things were changing quickly. He wanted to coordinate Blue Ridge’s and Granite Mountain’s efforts. Frisby agreed and took off in the Razor to meet with Marsh on the ridge for another talk.
He never got there.
By the time he reached the little clearing, Donut was standing by the grader with his radio in his hand, looking stunned. He’d just keyed the mic to call Blue Ridge– the only way for Donut to be extracted from hell– when he saw that Frisby was already there. Frisby whipped the Razor into a U-turn. Donut handed him the radio and said, “Talk to Steed and Marsh.” Donut wanted them to hear from Frisby that he was safe. “I’ve got Donut and he’s leaving his lookout,” Frisby said. “The fire activity is picking up and we’re moving our rigs. Do you want us to move yours?” “Affirm,” said Marsh. He watched as Frisby floored the ATV and they raced away ahead of the flames.
———————————————————
NOTE: This is actually fairly accurate, including the TIME ( circa 3:26 PM ) when Marsh first requested that second ‘face-to-face’ with Frisby… and NO mention of ANY thoughts on either Marsh’s or Frisby’s part of ‘checking on Brendan’ in any way, shape or form. The ‘rescue’ was ‘accidental’.
Fernanda Santo’s book “The Fire Line”…
———————————————————
McDonough had to get out of there. He was about to call Frisby, the Blue Ridge Hotshots’ superintendent, and ask him for a ride out of the wild, when Frisby zipped by in his ATV and stopped. McDonough hopped aboard. Steed radioed McDonough and said, “I’ve got eyes on you and the fire, and it’s making a good push.” Frisby stomped on the gas, zoomed past the old grader, and made a beeline to the spot where Granite Mountain had parked its buggies on a patch of yellowed grass.
———————————————————
NOTE: Fernanda Santos makes absolutely NO mention of the fact that the only reason Frisby was ‘zipping by’ Brendan’s location in his ATV, at that time, was because he was heading up for a that second face-to-face meeting that Marsh had requested circa 3:26 PM, just BEFORE the crucial weather report. According to Santos… there was absolutely NO reason at all being given to the reader WHY Frisby was anywhere near Brendan at that time. As if Frisby was just out ‘joy riding’ in his ATV and ‘zipping by’ Brendan’s location when he ‘accidentally’ saw him.
Santos is also totally mistaken that the ‘rescue’ took place at the ‘old-grader’, or even just WEST of there.
She is WRONG. It did NOT.
According to Brendan’s own (public) ADOSH testimony… Brendan emerged from the brush at the same ‘T-intersection’ where he had been ‘dropped off’ earlier that afternoon… which was some distance EAST of the old-grader itself.
If Brendan HAD ’emerged’ WEST of that ‘T-intersection’ and near the old-grader, Brian Frisby would NOT have ‘stumbled across him’ as he drove by out there on that main two-track.
BTW: Of all the for-profit BOOKS published ( so far, anyway ), the Santos ‘tome’ is the one that, by far, contains the MOST factual inaccuracies.
Now here is Brendan’s own version, as he tell it in his own for-profit BOOK.
Even in his own recently published book he seems to still be under the delusion that Brian Frisby had arrived at his location specifically because he was ‘concerned’ about him.
That was NOT the case.
To this day… Brendan seems incapable of believing that it was a complete and total ‘accident’ that Frisby happened to ‘stumble upon him’ when he did.
Brendan McDonough’s book “My Lost Brothers”…
———————————————————
I was fighting back thoughts of burning up, of feeling the fire rush out at me from the brush around me. Not having eyes on the fire was the worst part. You feel like you’re going to turn your head and the fire is going to come rushing at you through the trees with no warning. A wave that will burn you alive in three seconds.
I burst out of the brush at the clearing and brought the radio up to my mouth. I was going to call Brian, the Blue Ridge super. The dozer was there and I was about to hit the button for a pickup when I saw something rolling into the far edge of the clearing on fat black wheels.
I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. Was it a mirage? I ran toward it, and saw it was the Blue Ridge UTV. I felt a huge weight lift off me.
Brian Frisby had seen the flames moving toward me and had anticipated my need for a ride out— Eric had asked for a face-to-face meeting, so Brian swung by my position on the way.
I hopped on and handed Brian the radio so he could talk directly to Jesse and Eric.
This guy just saved my life, I thought.
———————————————————
NOTE: In addition to being mistaken about Frisby ‘anticipating’ Brendan’s need for a ‘ride out’… Brendan’s mention of the ‘dozer being there’ ( where he emerged ) doesn’t even match his own testimony to ADOSH that he did NOT emerge at the ‘old-grader’ at all… but EAST of there at the ‘T-Intersection’ where Frisby had dropped him off earlier in the day.
***** Now here is the “Horse’s Mouth”.
Brian Frisby’s OWN words, as he was speaking to Prescott National Forest employees Aaron Hulburd, Jason Clawson, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… a little more than an hour after having ‘stumbled upon’ Brendan and ‘rescuing’ him.
NOTE: The following has actually been posted 3 or 4 times.
Here is just one link back to where it appeared in Chapter 19 of this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-324945
From Aaron Hulburd’s VIDEO with filename M2U00271, at the moment when Frisby was ‘talking’ to him and Clawson and Yowell… and Hulburd was ‘recording’ that conversation…
Video M2U00271 in the Public Evidence Record…
———————————————————-
+0:31 ( 1729:31 / 5:29:31 PM )
( Brian Frisby ): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… in the green… ( ? that that’s the route )… and that lookout was down below… and I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… ( ? rest of ’em )… and I grabbed him… and then we got the rigs out.
———————————————————-
The words coming out of Brian Frisby’s OWN mouth, on June 30, 2013…
“I just happened to stumble upon the lookout.”
It will be very interesting to see how the for-profit ‘FILLUM’ depicts ‘the rescue’.
As a PLAN ( which it wasn’t ).
As a total ‘accident’? ( which it was ).
As… ???… something else?
Maybe they will decide the more ‘exciting’ depiction would be to have actor Miles Teller ( McDonough ) being already almost surrounded by flames and actuallly contacting actor Rene Herrera ( Frisby or Farsby or whatever NAME they are giving him as a FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshot’ ) and we see Rene Herrera ONLY THEN ‘racing’ out to ‘save’ Miles Teller with the best 3D CGI and exciting MUSIC that Hollywood has to offer.
WTKTT,
See my reply below:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342395
Reply to Muzzy post on July 20, 2016 at 5:35 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> I’m sure that’s how he presented it.
>> What was he supposed to say,
>> “Yeah, I knew Marsh would leave Donut out
>> to get crispycrittered so I swung around to pick
>> him up. You should have seen that puny
>> assed safety zone they picked out!”
I think the moment that Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown dropped Brendan off at the ‘T-Intersection’ just east of the old-grader… right around 12:30 PM… they knew very well that there was NO VALID SAFETY ZONE there in that area… regardless of what Jesse Steed or Eric Marsh had told Brendan.
That’s probably where the offer of “If you need us… just call us and we’ll come get you” came from.
It wasn’t an idle ‘favor’ being offered.
They knew damn well that if this kid got into trouble… SOMEONE with a 4 wheeler was going to HAVE to come and get him…. and since Granite Mountain had managed to get theirs ‘crispycrittered’ on another fire and hadn’t even bothered to replace it… they knew it was “Tag… you’re it” as far as anyone even HAVING a UTV/ATV out there in that area that day.
But that still doesn’t mean that factored into Frisby’s thinking at 3:26 PM, when Marsh inexplicably asked Frisby to eat dust for 15 minutes and come ALL THE WAY back UP there… for some still-unknown reason….
…and then Frisby ( who had a lot going on himself at that point ) also inexplicably agreed to that ‘request’, at that late hour, and dropped what he was doing to go UP there.
There’s still never been a good explanation as to WHY Marsh wanted Frisby to schlep his ass all the way back UP to the ridge at that crucial point in the burn cycle.
It HAD to be because of something Eric Marsh wanted Frisby to SEE… and to SEE it in a way that Marsh thought only the view from the ridge would provide.
Otherwise… why not just DISCUSS whatever Marsh had in mind over the radio?
The entire ‘second face-to-face’ still doesn’t even really make much sense… and no one has been able to successfully interview Frisby ( and/or Brown ) to determine if there is MORE to be known about what the second ‘face-to-face’ was even SUPPOSED to be ABOUT ( versus just discussing something over the radio ).
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> At that point, he didn’t know they were all goners.
>> He was too much of a gentleman/team player to
>> admit that he was cleaning up after Marsh, as
>> others had done before.
Well… there’s the rub… eh?
We still have NO IDEA what Type 1 IHC Superintendent Brian Frisby might have ‘thought’ about Eric Marsh and/or the entire GM organization.
He MAY actually be someone who, himself, ended up ‘not too surprised’ that they got themselves killed.
The ‘essence’ of him ( and the other Blue Ridgers ) religiously dodging all attempts to interview them for all this time might be because they are still trying, with all their might, not to ADMIT that they, themselves, thought Granite Mountain was just “an accident looking for a place to happen”… and then they found the place.
Perhaps it’s just a simple as a full commitment to the “If you don’t have anything good to say… don’t say anything at all” approach.
As for “that might just be the way Frisby presented it” ( rescuing Brendan )… I don’t think there’s any reason to doubt that it really was all just as ‘matter of fact’ as Frisby described it.
From listening to all the radio traffic and other off-the-cuff recordings that captured Frisby speaking… I don’t think he was known for being any kind of ‘Chatty Kathy’ either ON or OFF the radio.
We don’t HEAR the ‘question’ that either Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell actually ASKED him in that M2U00271 video.
All we hear is Frisby’s ‘matter of fact’ short ‘report’…
1. I was on my way out to tie in with Eric ( as he requested ).
2. I happened to STUMBLE upon the lookout.
3. I got HIM ( and only him ) out of there.
4. We then got all the buggies out of there.
Bada-bing. Bada-boom.
Dem’s just ‘da facts’.
And I think those WERE ‘da facts’.
In other words… I don’t think at that point where we hear Frisby speaking that he was ‘filled’ with ANY sorts of urges to even ‘downplay’ what he was thinking or feeling… or that the whole situation was an unfolding ( but not unexpected ) ‘fuck up’ on Granite Mountain’s part.
Someone asked him how it was that Brendan was not WITH the others… or something along those lines… and he simply TOLD them.
No editorializing needed.
McDonough posted in his book:
“I WAS FIGHTING BACK THOUGHTS OF BURNING UP, OF FEELING THE FIRE RUSH OUT AT ME. NOT HAVING EYES ON THE FIRE WAS THE WORST PART. YOU FEEL LIKE YOU’RE GOING TO TURN YOUR HEAD AND THE FIRE IS GOING TO COME RUSHING AT YOU THROUGH THE TREES WITH NO WARNING. A WAVE THAT WILL BURN YOU ALIVE IN THREE SECONDS.” (EMPHASIS ADDED).
“I WAS FIGHTING BACK THOUGHTS OF BURNING UP, OF FEELING THE FIRE RUSH OUT AT ME.”
This sounds to me like he had already experienced this before.
“NOT HAVING EYES ON THE FIRE WAS THE WORST PART.”
No lookout or anyone watching the fire to notify him of danger? Sounds like he had done this before also, AND gotten away with it. LCES? What’s that?
“YOU FEEL LIKE YOU’RE GOING TO TURN YOUR HEAD AND THE FIRE IS GOING TO COME RUSHING AT YOU THROUGH THE TREES WITH NO WARNING. A WAVE THAT WILL BURN YOU ALIVE IN THREE SECONDS.”
Again, this sounds to me like he had already experienced this before, maybe on the ‘Nevada’ [Holloway] Fire or the Doce Fire or ??.
This entire paragraph suggests to me that he had actually experienced this before and he was merely recounting it for his book, for the ‘drama’ of it all.
Remember, at least Fire Order Number 10 (Fight fire aggressively having provided for safety first), was HILLBILLY, and he/they were much smarter than that.
RTS,
Go to the book at:
https://books.google.com/books?id=PYqDCgAAQBAJ
Use the search box to find “Jesse set the anchor” to find a passage about another close call during the Doce Fire.
I’d be curious to hear your assessment of the situation he describes. Is he tarting it up, or were they close to death? It sounds like a stupid, unsafe action on their parts to me, though not quite as stupid as leaving good black to go into a box canyon during an outflow event on a fire front, but still. What do you think?
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on July 20, 2016 at 8:13 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> “I WAS FIGHTING BACK THOUGHTS OF BURNING UP, OF FEELING
>> THE FIRE RUSH OUT AT ME.”
>>
>> This sounds to me like he had already experienced this before.
Yep. No telling how MANY times… but definitely at least just 12 DAYS before Yarnell, on the Doce Fire.
The ‘descriptions’ about the fire ‘engulfing him’ he uses as he describes his thoughts coming off his lookout mound match what is in the actual PROLOGUE of McDonough’s book.
His book STARTS OUT ( the PROLOGUE itself ) with him re-counting the near-death experience that he and Christopher MacKenzie had just 12 days before Yarnell, on the Doce fire.
They had just ‘arrived’ there… and Jesse Steed pointed at some thick-brush area and told McDonough and MacKenzie to ‘burn it out’.
They picked a spot and literally ‘waded INTO’ Brush that was head-high and so thick it was knocking their helmets off as they worked their way through it.
And then they just fired up their drip-torches and started ‘lighting things up’.
Next thing they know… McDonough and MacKenzie find themselves caught in the middle of what appears to have been an ‘area ignition’ being caused by their OWN drip-torches and the fires they were lighting in the head-high brush.
They barely made it out alive.
They ended up having to THROW their drip-torches AWAY from themselves as far as they could to stop the ‘area ignitions’ right around themselves, and then crawl on their hands and knees UNDER the thick brush to make it back out to the ashphalt road where they had come from.
Even in his PROLOGUE… Brendan admits they “Chose the wrong place to go in” and they had ‘underestimated’ how DRY and EXPLOSIVE that fuel really was.
Brendan CLOSES this ‘dramatic PROLOGUE’ to his own book by saying that after crawling back to the road in the nick of time with MacKenzie… he wanted to QUIT being a Hotshot right then and there.
But he didn’t. He continued working the Doce Fire, and went to Yarnell with everyone else just 12 days later.
Followup…
I know that the person who was REALLY writing ‘Brendan’s book’ ( author Stephan Talty – ‘Captain Phillips’ ) was just ‘doing his job’ as a writer and was the one who must have convinced Brendan that before the book got ‘into’ all the drug-use and heroin addiction and stuff that they needed to “hook the readers” and “pull them in” with something EXCITING…
…but I’m still not sure using that ‘near-death’ experience that McDonough and MacKenzie had on the ‘Doce’ fire was the best way to do that.
I think a lot of ‘readers’ might have been like me.
I started reading the ‘book’ with the most open mind possible… but by the time I reached the end of that PROLOGUE… I really only had one distinct impression.
“THESE are the kinds of guys who are supposed to be the ‘elite’ Navy Seals of Wildland Firefighting? People who ‘chose the wrong place’ to enter head-high explosively-dry fuel and don’t even seem to know what COULD ( and did happen ) the minute they started ‘lighting it all up’?”
“What a bunch of DUMBASSES”.
And if you believe this ‘story’ that Brendan told about happened to him and Christopher MacKenzie just 12 days before Yarnell… how they both almost ‘bought the farm’ in head-high explosive fuel because of bad decision making…
…then you have to pause for a moment and think again about poor Christopher MacKenzie himself.
McDonough “left the building” and was not WITH them as they all made that risky move… but circa 4:25 PM or so… there was Christopher MacKenzie finding himself ( once again ) ‘pushing through’ head-high super-dry explosive fuel, with no ‘eyes on the fire’… and watching the SMOKE just build and build and build over his head as they kept ‘bushwhacking’ towards some dubious destination that ‘lie ahead’ ( somewhere ).
I’ll bet every ALARM was ‘going off’ in his head and he was probably THINKING of what happened just 12 days earlier… and how he ALMOST died THAT time.
But the Just. Kept. Moving. Forward.
Never taking the time to ‘re-evaluate’ their situation and their ‘decision making’.
It remains TRULY ‘tragic’.
Whoops. TYPO up above.
Should have read like this…
—————————————————————-
But THEY Just. Kept. Moving. Forward.
Never taking the time to ‘re-evaluate’ their situation and their ‘decision making’.
It remains TRULY ‘tragic’.
—————————————————————-
As I have said before…several times…if anybody is an elite Navy SEAL type in wildland firefighting…it is smokejumpers. Hotshots…if there is any comparison to a military branch…are the Marines.
And you get what you pay for…YOU don’t put enough money into recruiting, training or retaining hotshots to have all squared away hotshots…you are lucky you get as many as you do.
And however you cut it…hotshots are the best of the best….even if the best of the best are not as good as you think they should be…or they really need to be.
Marine…INFANTRY!
The real question regarding this commentary is why didn’t someone from the rest of the crew (who knew that Brendan had left his look-out spot when the fire had chased him out) act as HIS look-out, and show some concern for HIS safety, when the fire had already run him off of his lookout point??
To me, this question looms large, because at THAT point in time, the look-out was the ONLY one in any sort of danger, and all of the accounts and reports including Brendan’s own accounts, indicate the he was seemingly left to fend for himself when his life was clearly in danger.
TTWARE,
This was discussed in some detail several chapters back and I have been unable to find it.
You are absolutely correct here.
The GMHS Overhead were pretty cavalier and slack in this regard, allegedly acting as his Lookout, since the GMHS had the best overall vantage and Lookout points of anyone on the entire YH Fire.
As you put it: “he was seemingly left to fend for himself when his life was clearly in danger.”
More to the point, he WAS left to fend for himself.
It was as if McDonough was down there entirely on his own, setting his own WAY-TOO-CLOSE trigger point, watching and waiting TOO LONG before leave once he hit his trigger point, and then contemplating where to go to DEPLOY his fire shelter rather than head up to the black above him.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
post on July 21, 2016 at 9:24 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> all of the accounts and reports including Brendan’s own accounts,
>> indicate the he was seemingly left to fend for himself when his
>> life was clearly in danger.
Throughout ALL of his ‘interviews’ following the tragedy… Brendan seemed to have been ‘coached’ to not make a ‘big deal’ out of this ‘evacuation’ from his lookout post.
And he was TRUE to that ( apparent? ) ‘coaching’ when being interviewed by the SAIT ( once ) and ADOSH ( TWICE ).
It was ‘no big whoop’ ( according to Brendan ).
Then… his FOR-PROFIT book comes out and now it’s all a “close encounter of the deadly kind” and he’s talking about how he thought he might be engulged by flames even when he was just walking down from the mound.
But regardless of McDonough’s own ongoing CREDIBILITY issues… YOU are RIGHT.
The ONLY ‘evidence’ that has arisen to date that shows there was any real concern on either Marsh’s or Steed’s part for Brendan McDonough’s welfare after he left them and was driven down to that ‘lookout mound’ at 12:25 PM by Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown is that ‘conversation’ Brendan reports having with Jesse Steed, circa 3:33 PM, just after Byron Kimball’s crucial ‘weather report’ hit the radio.
McDonough said that immediately after that 3:30 PM weather report from Kimball about the approaching 40-50 mph wind gusts and expected fireline ‘reversaly’.. he and Steed ‘decided’ ( together ) that it was time for Brendan to leave that lookout mound.
But then that is it.
Steed’s only ‘advice’ to Brendan when Brendan confirmed he was leaving that mound was “Okay. Cool. Do what you need to do”.
Nothing like…
“Brendan… you better haul your ass UP HERE to this SAFE BLACK like RIGHT NOW… and I mean DOUBLE-TIME or better… you might be in deep shit soon.”
OR
“Brendan… you better press that radio button and CALL BLUE RIDGE to come and get you like RIGHT NOW… and make SURE they still have a functioning UTV within range to do that… or you could be in deep shit REAL soon.”
Nope. NOTHING like that from Brendan’s direct supervisor ( or from DIVSA Marsh ) and the men that were responsible for his safety.
AND… no evidence whatsoever that Marsh or Steed themselves ever lifter a finger ( or pushed a radio button ) to make SURE for THEMSELVES that this critical ‘going to get Brendan’ operation was even going to be possible at that critical moment in time.
Just… “Okay. Cool. Do what you need to do”.
Muzzy did a good job of bringing my thoughts on the Battlement Creek Fire forward which saved me some searching…so thanks for that. I don’t have much to add except to reaffirm that we knew exactly where the Mormon Lake crew was and they knew exactly where we were, the shift plan told us or we could have looked up and seen them working if we would have wanted or needed to see where they were at.
If Shawna Legarza would have been honest with the job she was entrusted with in the name of wildland firefighter safety, the six minutes for safety would have discussed the importance of NOT having an incompetent fire overhead coming up with a plan to have one hotshot crew start a burn out below another one…on purpose.
And yes…people have always made a big deal about Tony being head down burning with the others. Why not? He had already done what a crew boss was supposed to do, he had identified the impending threat and he had sent most of his crew to safety. It’s just that in his arrogance he wanted to finish burning out their line and thought those he kept with him and he could make it out at the last minute, but he was wrong.
The analogy that I use is if a track repair foreman thought he had to finish pounding in some spikes before the train got to their job site because management had sent the train on it’s way before their work was completed, but told the repair crew to be sure and get out the way BEFORE the train got to where they were working but also get the job done BEFORE they leave.
The crew boss looked up, saw the train coming, sent the majority of his crew to safety but kept a select team with him to pound in the last few spikes. And because the train was almost upon them, he picked up a sledgehammer to hammer spikes as well to hurry up and get the job done, but he badly misjudged how fast the train was going, or would be going.
Oh…and one more thing. The U.S. government does not have any intellectual property rights except that that are specifically provided for by federal law. For example, Smokey the Bear and his likeness, the U.S, Forest Service shield, the NPS arrowhead or the BLM triangle are all protected.
Another good example is the readily identifiable outline of a federal agent badge because that could be duplicated and used as a master key that opens almost every door. It is a federal felony to be in possession of a federal badge or the likeness of a federal badge if you are not a sworn federal agent. But almost everything else is in the public domain, books, writing, manuals, photographs…you name it, you own it. Or at least you are a c- owner along with approximately 350 million other U.S. citizens.
I’m pretty sure the name of the Blue Ridge hotshots and their crew symbol which used to be a firefighter repelling down a rock face (since they were certified as a hotshot repelling crew but I don’t know if they still do that or what their logo is now)…is not protected by federal law. Every crew just makes up their own logo. I always like the logo of the ZigZag hotshots off the Mt Hood National Forest. It was the same as the Zig Zag rolling papers bohemian hippie dude who looks like he is smoking a joint. Which the Zig Zag rolling paper company could have objected to on copyright laws but I guess they didn’t care under the circumstances. The Happy Jack logo that I came up with after I became crew boss WAS the U.S. Forest Service Shield but instead of a beautiful gold tree in the center, I had them draw up a burned up black snag which was hotshot humor and I always expected to get in trouble for that one but nobody ever called me on it. Some things they let slide, but just try and use Smokey Bear’s likeness etc. in your business or hobby and you will find out just how serious the federal government takes those things…as in felony charges.
Likewise, I don’t think you need a federal employees permission to use their name or their likeness to represent them or something they did at work since they, and what they do on the job belongs to the public and not to them since they are on the payroll and are civil servants.
So…I suspect that the reasons the movie people changed the names etc. has nothing to do with either the government or those employees refusing to cooperate with the project and their reasons are there own. That is why I can write a book about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire…it is all in the public domain as WTKTT likes to say, it’s not like we are talking about Exxon Mobile..
Insert “trademark” laws instead of “copyright laws” were appropriate. Also add things like songs, you don’t have to pay a royalty to sing the “Star Spangled Banner” like you are supposed to if you sing the “Happy Birthday” song, at least in a commercial setting, also web sites, cut and past from federal websites all you want except for those things specifically protected by federal law, everything on the FBI web site for example except for their badge.
speaking of “Happy Birthday”, Gary—many Leos here and between July 23 and August 22 if yours drops in that time frame— HAPPY BIRTHDAY 🙂
http://media.santabanta.com/e-cards/birthday/birthday_zodiac_leo.jpg
Why yes Joy,it does as a matter of fact…on July 31. Thank you so much, that is a beautiful e-card.
I would add that the Oak Grove Hot Shots Woody Wood Pecker was designed by the owner of the studio Lintz and it was listed under a LLC. copy rights.
But you are right most were not.
The use of the name and name of the crew could be under Royalty agreements that were not given with out compensation. A book is different.
Most were not? I bet NO others were trademarked. Who would bother to do that and pay hundreds of dollars in registration fees? For one thing, when I have gone through that process, you have to prove a commercial application by category (and teh more categories, it costs a lot more money) for what you want to trademark before your trademark can even be considered for registration. It is not an easy or cheap process.
A book is different than what? A movie? I can write about what Brian Frisby the U.S. Forest Service Blue Ridge hotshot did in his official capacity as a public servant on the public payroll in a book but they can’t in a movie?
I cut class the day they discussed intellectual property rights in my police science courses in college but we know you didn’t even go to college so how is it that you think you are qualified to give an opinion on what privacy rights a federal employee has from acts they did as public servants?
Joy and Sonny could probably sue the movie people, but I would like to wish Brian Frisby good luck in that endeavor because he is probably going to need it, but I will defer to somebody who knows what the fuck they are talking about, which precludes you.
And besides that, who the fuck is going to infringe upon a Woody Woodpecker logo trying to hit some flames with eyes, a mouth and little flame hands with a shovel anyway?
The ZigZag Hotshots have the coolest logo, Oak Grove had the lamest one.
Now…;the Santa Fe Hotshots had the BEST one…ever. An Indian Warrior, an Anglo Mountain Man and a Spanish Conquistador…all riding side by side on horses as recognition of the three races who comprised the Santa Fe Hotshots, almost always in equal numbers with a tribute to Santa Fe’s storied and colorful history for more than 300 years.
I approved it, but I did not create it, or even think of it, that was done by Richard Lastyona, who was (probably still is) from the Laguna Pueblo, but I still have the original artwork. Santa Fe Hotshots…email me at [email protected] and I will send it to you!
FYI…your history is off on your web site. What you show as the “original” artwork is a later version that came in some time after I left. What you now show as the “current” artwork is actually very similar to the true original artwork, but there are significant differences. Just a another little stroll down memory lane.
Also, unless you know something I don’t, the original Santa Fe Hotshots who were disbanded for performance and disciplinary reasons in the mid 1970’s had Al Lopez as their crew boss. Al ended up with the Carson Hotshots a few years later were he even had a worse run of it. But he was a hellava nice guy…
You forgot the White Boots, and the logo was donated to Oak grove at no cost by the Studio. It was designed by both the Superintendent Larry Boggs and Lutzs the creator of
WOODY WOOD PECKER. One of the only recognized comic book and screen caricature’s to ever be a Logo for a Hot Shot Crew. He allowed the use with authorization and a LLC.
In the 60,s most of the Hot Shot Crews were designing their LOGO,s which then became a standard for recognition.
A little history for you Gary.
WELL Bob…I do have to admit that having the creator of Woody the Woodpecker give your crew the rights to use him on your logo is pretty cool…IF you know that history.
Otherwise…having a Wood Pecker on a bad ass hotshot crew logo is a non sequitor…meaning “it does not follow” since I was one of those dumb ass “college boy” and it is pretty lame.
Although FYI…even if I were buddies with the creators of Donald Duck or Atom Ant…I would still NOT put those characters on a bad ass hotshot crew logo. Well…maybe Atom Ant?
Oh…and one more thing Fred. The coolest hardhats ever…bar none and hands down…the Payson Hotshots. I was always sooooo jealous.
But those were for the all district fire personnel right? Or was it just the hotshots?
Gary,
Thanks for the compliment and I am in total agreement on being the coolest hardhat color scheme out there.
We did it originally, so that aircraft could see us through the trees. Then, once we realized that most women just loved them, we of course, continued on.
The bees, wasps, and hornets really like them too, so that was kind of a hassle at time.
And yes, many of the District wildland fire people eventually adopted the colors as well because they probably wanted to look cool too, right.
Well…nothing in the nation from anyone else ever compared to that color scheme. Very, very, cool.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
July 21, 2016 at 12:21 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Gary,
>> Thanks for the compliment and I am in total
>> agreement on being the coolest hardhat color
>> scheme out there.
>>
>> We did it originally, so that aircraft could see
>> us through the trees. Then, once we realized
>> that most women just loved them, we of
>> course, continued on.
>>
>>
>> The bees, wasps, and hornets really like them
>> too, so that was kind of a hassle at time.
Yes. VERY COOL Helmets.
Here are the ‘Payson Hotshots’ ( with the cool helmets )… walking right at the camera…
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gilaforest/7355287670
http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/10280-Hardhat-colors
I’m ignorant.
All this time I just state “nation’s top fire fatality expert” when I speak on Dr. ted Putnam but I have no clue his history except smokejumper so it was neat to read this:
http://www.thebigroundtable.com/tag/hotshots/
Joy,
And the author, Anna Hiatt, chose to be willingly ignorant of the truth by intentionally neglecting what really occurred there that day from those of us that were there.
She chose instead to follow the alleged investigation report ‘facts’ and those touted by AZ AUSA Mike Johns..
The investigators, knowing that Crew Boss Larry Terra was NOT with the Crew when they were burned over, concluded that his absence would have had no significant out come on the fatalities. He left the fireline with the only radio and went to the store, returning as the fire was sweeping across the Control Road between Bonita Creek and Walk Moore Canyon. WTF?
She also takes many liberties similar to author Kyle Dickman.
Check out the Shift Plan cover on June 28, 1990, 2 days after the fatalities. Pretty crass!
http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr11/lsr11_iap_28.pdf
RTS,
Thanks for the shift plan link. Classy! I realize no one has the right not to be offended but come on! Some camp slug dufus came up with the piece of art I’m sure.
When reading about the legal battle that ensued following the Dude fire, I noticed this about the assistant us attorney, Mike Johns:
“Meanwhile, Janet Napolitano, then the U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona, and Assistant U.S. Attorney Mike Johns—a former wildland firefighter and a crew foreman from 1968 to 1971 in the Payson Ranger District, where the Dude Fire occurred—were preparing the federal government’s defense against wrongful-death and personal-injury claims filed by the families of the deceased inmates, surviving inmates, Perryville crew representative Dave LaTour and by correctional officer Larry Terra.”
I don’t really have any specific point here but more of a curiosity. What was Johns’ history as a wff? Hotshot? Payson? Do you know him?
I also noted that this was not Scott Hunt’s first rodeo concerning legal ‘challenges’ following a fatality on a wildfire.
Thanks!
Woodsman
Did you see the SNAKE and his ‘quote’?
“I’ve had it with this shake and bake”.
Just TWO DAYS after people burned to death inside ( and outside ) their shelters on the same fire?
Unbelievable.
That person should have been FIRED and never let near a fire situation EVER AGAIN.
Woodsmsan,
Regarding AZ AUSA Mike Johns, it depends on where and what forum he posts his bio. Mostly, he is full of shite.
Here’s one from his very informative article titled: FIRE LAW.
http://www.iawfonline.org/summit/2005%20Presentations/2005_pdf/Johns.pdf
“MICHAEL A. JOHNS
– Assistant United States Attorney, Phoenix, Arizona.
– Payson Ranger District, Tonto National Forest, Helitack and Hotshot Crew Foreman,
1968-1971. ”
The Payson HS was an AD Crew in 1973 and officially a Type I HS Crew in 1974.
He was on Helitack, however, he is NOT truthful by claiming he was a [Payson] District Hotshot Crew Foreman anywhere in that range from 1968 to 1971.
RTS,
Thanks for the background on that guy. I figured you would know. I found it interesting that he was supposedly a HS foreman turned us attorney tasked with defending the gov’t against claims following wildfire fatalities.
Appreciate it.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
And the Perryville Crew legal debacle was a legal nightmare for the inmates’ families.
“Marvin and Catherine Chacon et al. v. State of Arizona never went to trial. Neither did lawsuits filed against the state by Dude Fire survivors Geoff Hatch and Patrick Flippen. On March 10, 1993, after nearly three years of depositions, hearings and countless court filings, Judge Sherry Hutt dismissed the claims and granted a judgment in favor of the state of Arizona. In an earlier ruling, Hutt had said that it was the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Forest Service, not the state of Arizona, that controlled the fire-suppression efforts on the Dude Fire, and because of that, the case could only be decided at the federal level.”
The inmates were not covered under the Public Safety Officers’ Benefits Program, which is administered by the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Assistance (BJA).
“The BJA stood by its original determination, and on June 25, 1992, once again denied the death-benefit claims. With one more administrative appeal left, [Inmate Family Attorney]Stephens filed again. But the BJA was unbending in its interpretation of the bill, and the families’ death benefits claims were denied for the third and final time on August 25, 1992”
“Without further administrative recourse, on October 14, 1992, Stephens filed suit in the U.S. Court of Federal Claims, in Washington, D.C. In Marvin A. Chacon et al. v. The United States, Stephens argued on behalf of the families of the deceased firefighters that by ignoring statements made by Warden Copeland and Arizona Assistant Attorney General Albrecht, the decision by BJA was “arbitrary and capricious, and not supported by substantial evidence,” and that it violated the agency’s own requirement to “give substantial weight to the evidence and findings of facts presented by state, local, and federal administrative and investigative agencies.”
“Nevertheless, in an opinion dated January 27, 1994, Judge Diane Gilbert Weinstein granted the U.S. government’s motion to dismiss the case, explaining that the inmates could not be considered to be serving a public agency, because according to the Arizona Department of Corrections, state prisoners are not considered to be employees of the state or the Department of Corrections. Nor could they be considered volunteers for the purpose of the law, Weinstein said, since the inmates were involuntarily committed and thus could not be properly considered to be volunteering their services to the state by serving on the fire crew. “While the choice to join the fire-suppression detail was termed ‘voluntary,'” Weinstein wrote, “serving on some detail was mandatory” as a condition of each man’s incarceration.”.
“A year later, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, in Washington, D.C., affirmed the lower court’s decision.”
Woodsman,
Taken from “The tragic tale of another deadly Arizona wildfire” by Jaime Joyce
http://theweek.com/articles/462521/tragic-tale-another-deadly-arizona-wildfire
RTS,
From your reference according to the Supe of the Alpine IHC JP Mattingly:
“In the interview, Mattingly also questioned the priorities of the incident commanders. “They seemed more concerned with saving structures,” Andrews wrote in her log. She quoted Mattingly as saying, “Should we have been in there at all?”
Incidentally, the structures were evacuated so fire managers were concerned with saving EMPTY structures. They should have said ’empty’ structures in the article.
So clearly history is repeating itself over & over and the arrogant incompetent cluelessness of fire management trudges on…
WFF’s out there, are you listening???
Woodsman
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
July 21, 2016 at 5:22 pm
Joy posted a link…
http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/10280-Hardhat-colors
That page does, in fact, say that the ‘rules’ for ‘Helmet Colors’ in any particular region can be ‘suspended’ and that ‘Hotshot Crews’ be allowed to chose, themselves, what COLOR helmets they want to use.
gary said:
Joy and Sonny could probably sue the movie people, but I would like to wish Brian Frisby good luck in that endeavor because he is probably going to need it, but I will defer to somebody who knows what the fuck they are talking about, which precludes you.
MY REPLY: since I am hearing behind the scenes spliced information on this movie and the hikers- some that know say yes and some say no we are not in it nor do we want that- unless the whole story is being told and they hike with us—not doing SAIR narratives like other authors have done..so yes you are correct Gary there will be a lawsuit if we are used in the movie wrong and like I said earlier I finally feel at ease because we have the right area and right lawyer to handle big entities so I say anyone at this point “omit” us in their book or movie unless they have spoke to us again and have approval and had us fact check their work and to this date noone has come to us so NOTHING is approved for any future releases…including the material on us must be fact checked on authors not just movies-
Reply to Gary Olson post on July 20, 2016 at 3:17 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I suspect that the reasons the movie people changed the
>> names etc. has nothing to do with either the government
>> or those employees refusing to cooperate with the project
>> and their reasons are there own. That is why I can write a
>> book about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire…it is all in
>> the public domain as WTKTT likes to say, it’s not like we are
>> talking about Exxon Mobile..
I agree with just about everything you said above… but here is something to consider.
( Have to keep this short. Totally outta time ).
When the ‘Wildland Firefighters Foundation” ( that thing run by someone named Vicki Minor who used to run lunch wagons at fires and her son Burke ) came under scrutiny not long ago for possible ‘mis-use’ of the millions of dollars they were getting in response to the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’… a complete AUDIT was ordered by a Judge.
As part of that ‘audit’… the ‘auditors’ looked at this program they had started whereby you could just go to their website and order T-Shirts with all kinds of Fire Crew names and logos on them…. and the ‘profits’ go right into the Wildland Firefighter Foundation’s general fund.
The auditors wanted to know where the fuck all THAT money was going, as well as what they were doing with all the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ donations.
As part of that ‘audit’… there was something about the Wildland Firefighter Foundation saying that the ONLY T-Shirts they could ‘SELL’ with Crew names and ‘logos’ on them ( Hotshot or otherwise ) were ones where they had the expressed PERMISSION of that ‘Crew Unit’ to be doing that… since THEY are the rightful ‘owners’ of both that NAME and that LOGO.
So there’s that, anyway.
Whether or not it’s ‘on file’ at the USPTO as either a ‘copyrighted’ or ‘trademarked’ name and/or logo… there are still ‘implied ownership’ rights… and you WILL get your butt in a sling if you just start willy-nilly ‘selling’ shit with those NAMES and LOGOS on them without the ‘owner’s permission’.
Bottom line is that we do NOT know WHY ( yet ) the ‘movie people’ felt the need to erase history and create a FAKE Type 1 IHC organization called the “Blue River Hotshots”.
They are currently filming at a FAKE bar they have created in Sante Fe… but they still went to the trouble to use the REAL NAME of the SAME BAR back in Prescott.
They obviously have that BAR OWNER’S ‘permission’ to be ‘using his name and logo’ there in Sante Fe… right down to the longhorn skull on the sign.
If they do NOT… well… they damn well better get it.
So something is ‘funky’ with this ‘Blue River Hotshots’ thing given the fact that something like that is far more important than just the name of some BAR that some of the GM Hotshots used to go to.
SOMEONE put a ‘wrench in the works’ there, somehow, with this “Blue River Hotshots” thing.
Yes but…I am going to stick with my opinion that the name, the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” is in the public domain as well as the work Brian Frisby did on behalf of the American tax payers on the Yarnell Hill Fire while he was on the government payroll.
So…the big question remains, why all the changes? And why the fuck couldn’t they have come up with a better logo than a fish jumping out of a river for a bad ass U.S. Forest Service Hotshot Crew and saved that logo for a movie about an anglers retreat or bed and breakfast in a “River Runs Through It” or whatever?
The only thing worse would have been a Woody Woodpecker with a shovel over his head chasing some flames with a face….am I right?
Maybe the movie should hire me to negotiate with the U.S. Forest Service, I got pretty good at telling them (management) to fuck off.
And yes, I can see where logos are completely different. Those have no official connection to the government whatsoever…otherwise you would NOT have a bohemian hippie dude smoking a joint as the logo for the ZigZag Hotshots which copies the official logo for Zig Zag Rolling Papers.
You Seem to be fixated on Woody Wood Pecker.
Jealous I suppose but back then many were before your time.
Yes the Hot Shot crews have the Rights to their LOGOS and their Names. The use must be authorized to copy or use.
Each Seperiate HS crew has to have a seperiate Name and LOGO.
As WTKTT said…I think there are SOME implied rights to hotshot logos but I will bet you about $800.00 I can get the U.S. Government Patent and Trademark Office to give me the exclusive rights to the now defunct Oak Grove Hotshot Logo with Woody The Woodpecker chasing some flames with a shovel AND I will have it placed on some toilet paper and send you a roll and keep the rest for myself.
In any case…ANY rights issued by the USP&TO have to be ENFORCED by those who have those roghts. So even after I get the right to your Wood Pecker, I will have to hire attorneys to go around the world and sue everybody else who wants to put the now defunct Oak Grove Hotshot Woodpecker logo on their own rolls of toilet paper to try and recover monetary damages that I lost because I didn’t get to sell ALL of the rolls of Oak Grove Wood Pecker toilet paper. But thanks for the history lesson anyway. .
You are a real case of I am important and know it all.
But if you check Woody wood pecker holds a copy right that will put you in court if you use it without a release to you. Yap its like Smokey.
I expect you to be proud of your logo as I am of mine
and I have two others that I worked with.
CHILAO and SWATOOTH.
I am as proud to have served on all three.
OH we were building hot line and chasing the flames while your crews were MOPPING UP.
Our LOGO was recognized nation wide I don’t even remember yours. Burnt trees that’s all you saw because they brought you in for mop up. Latrine duty ???????
And not that it matters to most people, but I do have my original federal agent badge but it was given back to me encased in about one pound of lucite after I retired so it would be pretty hard to talk your way onto an airplane with a gun by flashing that badge. In addition, when an agent retires, they are given a new badge with the words “Retired” in lieu of a number, which still opens a lot of doors…in a good way, for truth, justice and the American Way.
Don’t see my posts coming up. I was wondering what y’alls lessons learned are. Thanks.
I’m a relative newbie here, but I noticed a few of your posts coming up at once, so I assume you are new also. If so, welcome! I got a lot of help from everyone here when I first started posting, so I’d like to pass that on to you. I hope I’m not being presumptuous, but I hope this brief summary will encourage any lurkers out there to join the group.
For lessons learned on the YHF, that’s a big question, and I feel like we’re still trying to figure out what actually happened and why. I have stuck around here because of my respect for the other posters who are experts in their fields and are dedicated to learning the truth about YHF.
I had been reading here for a few months before I started posting a couple months ago. I have mostly asked questions to help understand what went wrong at YHF. I would suggest reading the articles on the site by John Dougherty as they inform much of what I know about the fire. Then read the Serious Accident Incident Report and the ADOSH report linked via the right column on every page.
I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but my lesson learned from Battlement Creek, Yarnell Hill and others would be don’t work for a bad boss. Failing that, it would be don’t follow a bad boss from a place of safety into a chimney choked with dry fuel into which a fire front is rushing. Third lesson learned is that the FF management and investigation system is more interested in saving reputations of working overhead than in developing useful lessons learned, especially when the problems boil down to so-called human factors. As you read the site, you will hear of all kinds of lapses on the YHF, from a bungled initial attack, to supes not showing up or walking out, to spending more time ordering lunch than keeping track of personnel, bungled transitions, a poisonous mix of wildland urban interface and structural firefighters overseeing hotshots, the list goes on. And then, 19 young men died. But the SAIR found that no one did anything wrong. Even after 40 years, official lessons learned from Battlement Creek are based on lies, a word I don’t use lightly.
Aside from a distracting and inexplicable fascination with the Granite Mountain movie which is currently in production?, much of recent discussion has been about how to recognize and prevent bad decision making under the stress of deteriorating conditions. RTS and others have been vocal about the dangers of fighting fires in the WUI, and Gary has started writing a book about it.
What brings you here? With your moniker, I assume you are a WLFF, so what do you see as the lessons learned?
Lessons learned, you ask?
Here’s one of many from me:
It’s a really bad idea to rob a hotshot crew of its most critical leadership resources to fill overhead positions. It’s a really, really bad idea to plan to do it ahead of time instead of as a last resort. (see Appendix J – Resource Orders starting at pg 32. Look at C-5, GMIHC. Read the positions for the crew members. Strange, right? ie: Marsh – STCR, Steed – TFLD? My professional opinion is that the IMT, through the ‘buddy buddy system, PLANNED to rob all kinds of resources from GM for various reasons not the least of which is extra $$ for the personnel AND their sponsoring agency. Anyone who claims that resource order is all straight and on the up & up IS A DAMN LIAR!)
If you do steal leadership resources from a hotshot crew, whether planned or off the cuff, it’s a really, really, REALLY bad idea to put them in charge of a division containing their own resources.
Good question on lessons learned as there are many. Muzzy touched on several key points as well.
I’d tell you all about municipal fire departments and their hybridization into the wildland realm AND my laser-focused analysis of what a battalion chief is…..but I’ve been beat to hell in the heat this week and I’m just going to relax now instead.
Good question, Type 6. I hope you get more answers!
Woodsman
Go Woodsman!
A merrier world it is with you here.
I’ll be darned. Even beyond on the sharp insights… I didn’t realize there was a “life of the party” component in there as well. LOL.
Whoops. TYPO. Meant to say…
I’ll be darned. Even beyond ALL the sharp insights… I didn’t realize there was a “life of the party” component in there as well. LOL.
Cheer,
OK. I’ll go on if you insist.
Lessons Learned.
Lesson: “something learned through experience” noun
Learned: “acquired by learning; a learned behavior” adjective
source: Merriam-Webster
It should be pointed out that firefighters can learn all the lessons in the world but if they fail or refuse TO APPLY them then it’s no good at all. We can all spend an extraordinary amount of energy right here in this forum (and many are actually contained in these comments) to identify ‘lessons learned’ from the Yarnell fire, and it would be very worthwhile to do so, But the key to the entire exercise is that wildland firefighters will apply them to future actions and decisions in order to prevent these tragedies from occurring in the future. That’s my goal. Prevention.
With that said, here’s one more “lesson that has already been identified in the past on a tragedy fire that ‘went in one ear & out the other’ of wildland firefighters across the country”
It’s a really bad idea to double-up one aerial resource for both Air Attack AND Lead Plane at the same time.
Again, it’s been identified as a no-no in the past but management just didn’t seem to give a shit about it. I don’t want to hear any more excuses about it either.
Freelancing aircraft disconnected from the operational needs of ground resources? Yeehaw!!! “Hold my beer and watch this!”
Crew in distress and yelling into the radio? Can’t you see I’m busy?
stupid bastards…
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You posted: “It should be pointed out that firefighters can learn all the lessons in the world but if they fail or refuse TO APPLY them then it’s no good at all.”
Exactly!
And that was certainly the case with the GMHS. They knew or should have known all the lessons, especially those lessons relevant to fires in their own backyard, their own turf. WTF!.
And so, they both failed and refused to apply them.
Type6 says
JULY 20, 2016 AT 4:43 AM was here and I say welcome back Type6
my lessons learned on the fire or its aftermath?
I would have to state my lessons learned from listening to others and reading alot of foias and just peaking to this page that there is more political push and pulls within this industry that is better left not talking about it or you may lose something from that- may it be your mind trying to gain as much information to be documented for the world to see that in reality NOT ALL the information can be shown as it happens because you could see much reaction of the wrong kind…remember people who use to come up to me with alot of excitement down right tug their head down tight and low in hopes I do not see them when they use to come to me and reach for me and say hi and then there are those who will say “troublemaker, how are u?” knowing full well they are being heard by their cronies and I down right say “wonderful.”..then asked “you finally done with the fire?” then I say which one…Sadler…Cart fire..Cramer fire…Rock Creek…Tuolumne fire..Spanish Ranch..Blue RIbbon….30-mile…Dude…Storm King/South Canyon…Coeur d’Alene CA which no movie was done for those loved ones but 78 died in a burn over not 19…Griffith Park fire…loss of 15 in Blackwater fire and as well our own IM Bob Power’s dad in the Rattlesnake fire ….Mann Gulch…Hauser Creek fire/Inaja fire/Loop fire where appx a dozen died, the Buckhorn fire…because I am not just getting foias for the fire that took 19 lives- I am seeing the common denominator in all fires and their tragedies…yet not once has anyone explained how come those loved ones do not have a movie but this last one they get a movie dedicated to their namesake as the title vs NO EXIT…On any fire, leadership and human factors shape our engagement with the fire and the management of risk… I feel they are in need of serious update. I strongly believe “experience and hands on” matters versus years in a position…I see that as my number one observation in the history the percentage laid more on less experience not on less years but not very well experienced in all areas within its job position on recognizing dangers. I also find it telling that in all the tragedies there seem to be a boss in the loss so that needs to be reviewed seriously. That is not good. I mean you can have young inexperienced ones on the line- the folks don’t know what they don’t know, and they are trusting their leadership and overhead to get them through. Their inexperience is understandable, and we need to do a better job of training and educating them, but most importantly empowering them. How do you react if your plan is challenged by a first or second year firefighter? How does a well seasoned firefighter deal with the political pulls and pushes on the line? appx 19 of 26 separate burnover incidents we have fatalities that occur in this time period-between 1448-1642. One of the most striking things about this is the short average time from blow-up to entrapment. It was listed at 24 minutes. I say you must be within 11 minutes of your safety zone PERIOD to ensure everything is ready for what is about to come. As I have done ALOT of interviews…alot…Shit I should make a true documentary on the interviews…but the point is they all said this common factor: during that late day we seem to acknowledge the fire is the strongest and we are at our weakest yet we still follow orders- in my life I have seen THE ENEMY and in this I call roaring late day wild fire THE ENEMY and I do not attack my enemy when I am weak and he is strong…????…to me I would have a mandatory break between 1:38pm-2:38pm because if you walk like I do ALOT…you know that is the ideal time to re-coop/reorganize and rest the mind for proper mental decisions ahead but America sees lunch when it sees lunch…In my research I have seen the pyramid of command poorly defined except Gary Olson- he said he was the TOP and the rest were the bottom; not poorly defined. I knew where he stood in his group but there is too many HATS going on is my opinion that chaos and confusion can happen. Like Marsh was the Superintendent but then became DIV that day can cause confusion…I am not for intermixing just to gain positions on your assignment…I mean in the chef world..when someone said “YES CHEF”…I knew it was me not the sous chef or station chef…in the kitchen they had no name they were just a tool to produce an outcome and that is what I see lacks in this industry of firefighting—too many want the POSITION…the TITLE…the higher paycheck…I see alot of WE have to do something when it should be the BOSS analyzes it and assess his plan and it is followed using the 10&18 and lces at all times and never dropping down into unburned fuel with a fire so near…I also do not like to see Burn crew from another fire independently lights around structures…multiple folks in charge but when it comes down to it 19 men die and you do not take the account and responsibility of your role that day- it’s wrong. Who the hell was in charge on that fire? Too many…and not enough alive are willing to share about it—but accept awards…bonus checks…it is a horseshit. I learned by both fires here that while both Initial Attack and Extended Attack are safe methods of controlling a fire, the transition period between them is extremely dangerous.If we had a strong leader in there they would see that with what resources are available and equals complexity in my opinion…keep it simple… if you are on my watch EVERY man or women is getting home…I cannot promise uninjured because mistakes are made of another due to extreme dehydration and did not follow the safety rules…but I am getting you home…take this youtibe link for a sample…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeEz5054-lo…excellent canvas ol western style print of YHF, right…someone commented to me Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 3:53 PM: “Total FICTION.
Even in the oil painting… it doesn’t even show the ‘fuel’ that would keep the
fire burning and based on the ‘perspective’ and the ‘height’ of the ‘cartoon’
firefighters… they could have easily just ‘run away’ and TOWARDS the
viewer to get AWAY from the oncoming fireline.
They don’t even have the WIND blowing in the right direction.
This is GARBAGE.”
and that person is right….I am seeing too much horse shit and not enough people wanting to clean it up…so it is a freaking mess…but we just keep getting our checks and we keep paying our taxes to this kind of shit and we do not see ENOUGH not EVEN from the Hollywood world people attention to the areas needing attention and they are ok with it because again it’s a paycheck and we are doing a tribute and an honorable thing as we keep handing out flags and hearing Taps like there is no tomorrows…well, there ain’t for some and that is why I stay in this and keep learning…I can ramble more but want to head out with Sonny to get wood.
Reply to Type6 post on July 20, 2016 at 4:43 am
>> Type6 asked…
>>
>> I was wondering what y’alls lessons learned are. Thanks.
There are PLENTY of “Lessons to be Learned” from ALL THREE DAYS of this Yarnell Hill Fire fiasco… right on up to the “Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefighting” which took place on Sunday afternoon.
But as for Sunday afternoon alone…
1. If you don’t follow the established and accepted ‘rules of engagement’ for your own profession that have ALREADY been ‘paid for’ with MANY other lives… you could easily DIE.
2. If you believe that these ‘rules’ which have already been paid for via the highest possible price are somehow “Hillbilly”, or that you are “Smarter than that”… you could easily DIE.
NOTE: The two ‘quotes’ in number 2 above come directly from former Granite Mountain Hotshot Brendan McDonough, in his testimony to Arizona’s Department of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) during THEIR legally-required investigation of the 19 fatalities in that Arizona Forestry workplace.
Brendan McDonough was TRAINED by Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, and the other senior members of the organization known as the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’.
Brendan Mc Donut ought to demand his money back from whoever trained him as a wild land fire fighter==How was he able to graduate with a WTF attitude? Can you imagine working alongside Donut in a dangerous situation–but then his superiors abandoned him in a tight spot that would have killed him as well as the others. He had a lucky star that day — he ought to play the lottery with his luck. But like all luck situations, there is a time when luck does not help and common sense rules the day. Had he known enough about wild land fire fighting he would have never needed luck–he would not have been in that dangerous spot to start with. Once that fire went beserk, every firefighter had the duty to find a safe zone (they were in the black) and just set there and watch the big dog eat.
I wonder why they were learning lessons they should have already known. Maybe Roy Hall could shed some light on why the crew were ordered down in a no-no-never situation in order to do what Willis says they do–protect structures. But you see people that have any clout in this thing must consult their lawyers before they talk. Joy, their attorney, has to give anything said a jaundiced eye if it does not ring true to what keeps the system intact and tidy looking. There can’t be simple truth said in this situation–the public and especially the forest service and honchos involved want this painted with no blame despite the fact that all common sense wild land fire fighting rules were broken thus resulting in the deaths of 17 innocent souls whose only fault was to strictly take orders from their risk taking bosses. And who encouraged those bosses to do the unthinkable?
Norb tells me that since running two wild land fire fighting crews he never had a problem mixing the two situations–the hybrid wild land fire fighters that both protect structures and wild land fires. But then he also said he would never put his men in a situation he was able to access by hiking the route they made and surveying all the available information. He is retired–never lost a man on the job, but then he ascribes to the safety rules of wild land fire fighting and was not wont to risk his crew foolishly or because some boss above him was demanding he do the same. He is not alone from all the men who are well informed on applying common sense rules to taking care of their crews. I think the lessons were actually known but in the GMHS case the bosses blatantly disregarded them.
If anything, a young firefighter best evaluate the crew he wants to join. Provencio and RTS and others had pointed out the dangers of working with GMHS and even Donut spoke of how close he was to expiring on previous jobs. Your survival rate will go way down when you have a crew that considers the safety rules as Hill Billy. It tells me that this person hasn’t a clue and if he learned that from his bosses then he was truly in real danger.
The then mayor of Prescott told me that common sense goes a long ways–he knew I had refused to go down into that basin with the wild fire I was observing apt to change direction at any time. Forget worrying about the bear, it is the fire that will eat you. Just watched the true story movie where a gal and her boyfriend went camping in the Canadian Park–he got ate and she escaped with many injuries. Good God who the hell goes into bear country without something of either a good caliber or a 12 guage? Not Sonny for sure–it is like going down hill toward a fire with wind change warnings and planting yourself in a briar patch that extends for miles.
Lesson learned? Plenty on this one–some of these wild land fire fighting crews are woefully lacking in their ability to safely attack wild fires. I see that GMHS was in that category.
**
** THE ‘BLUE RIVER HOTSHOTS’ CREW CARRIERS
Regarding this TRIBUTE ‘fillum’ thing… it’s still fascinating to find clues emerging about how ‘inaccurate’ and ‘off the rails’ it really MIGHT turn out to be.
A few more PUBLIC photos posted ‘from the set’ now prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the ‘movie people’ have either just DECIDED, or have been FORCED to make absolutely NO mention of the organization known as the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” in this ( supposed ) “True account of the Yarnell Hill Fire”.
Instead… they have willy-nilly just created this totally FAKE ‘Type 1 IHC’ organization known as the “Blue River Hotshots”… complete with its own FAKE ‘Logo’ showing a Salmon jumping out of a river.
And just about 1 week ago… ( on July 11 and 12 ) they apparently ‘filmed’ the scene where actor Miles Teller ( playing Brendan McDonough ) is ‘rescued’ by the “Blue River Hotshots”.
Actually… the following photos answer BOTH of the following questions once and for all…
Q1: Have they really changed the name of the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to the “Blue River Hotshots”?
A1: YES. ‘Helmets’ with the FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ NAME and the FAKE LOGO have already been seen in other photos… but the ones below actually show the FAKE name painted on the side of actual US Forestry Service aquamarine-colored Crew Carriers being used in the ‘FILLUM’.
Q2: Did/Does Eric Marsh’s longtime friend Alan Sinclair really have a REASON to be on the movie set?
A2: YES. It is still unknown if Alan Sinclair, himself, has any kind of official ‘consulting’ contract with the movie people, but the PUBLIC photos below now prove that Alan Sinclair’s own recently graduated-from-high-school SON, Ethan Sinclair, is actually IN this ‘FILLUM’ and is playing one of the “Blue River Hotshots”.
** FIRST DAY OF ‘BLUE RIVER HOTSHOT’ FILMING ( JULY 11 )…
Direct link to a PUBLIC ‘Tweet’ posted on July 11 saying that this was the ‘First day of filming’ which featured “Blue River Hotshots” ( including Alan Sinclair’s son Ethan )…
https://twitter.com/ASINCLAIR13/status/752693890201690113
Left to right in the photo…
Alan Sinclair, Josh Brolin, Ethan Sinclair, Alan Sinclair’s wife Colleen Dolly Sinclair
PUBLIC Photo CAPTION…
—————————————————————
@ASINCLAIR13 – Alan Sinclair’s PUBLIC Twitter handle
@OddSinclair – Ethan Sinclair’s PUBLIC Twitter handle
First day of filming with our friend Josh Brolin. #GraniteMountain
—————————————————————
NOTE: In the photo above, Ethan Sinclair is in Hotshot-issue olive-drab fatigues and the ‘blue’ T-shirt he is wearing has a ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo on it. The LOGO they ‘made up’ for this FAKE “Blue River Hotshots” organization that has an image on it of a ‘Salmon’ jumping out of a river.
SIDENOTE: Allan Sinclair’s wife is/was a ‘Roller Derby’ person and her ‘stage name’ is ‘Dolly-de-los-Muertos’, which is a spoof off the name of the Latino Holiday known as “Dia-de-los-Muertos” ( Day of the Dead ), and her ‘stage name’ means “Dolly of the Dead”. “Dolly-de-los-Muertos” skates for the team known as the “Coffin Draggers”. ( No… I’m not making any of that up. Just ‘Google’ it if you don’t believe me. )
** SECOND ( FINAL ) DAY OF ‘BLUE RIVER HOTSHOT’ FILMING ( JULY 12 )…
Looks like July 12 was the one ( and ONLY ) day they spent any time filming any scenes that have anything to do with “Blue River Hotshots” and the rescue of actor Miles Teller playing McDonough.
It remains to be seen if they are TRUE to reality there and depict the rescue as the complete and total ‘accident’ that it was… or whether they try to portray it as some kind of ‘planned’ event.
Alan Sinclair’s son ( Ethan ) posted the following PUBLIC photos taken that day…
NOTE: Ethan Sinclair posted 3 PUBLIC photos at once here. It’s one of those Twitter ‘triple frame’ photo posts. Each photo is ‘clickable’ and brings up a larger version in another panel.
https://twitter.com/OddSinclair/status/752992989513814017
PUBLIC Photo CAPTION…
—————————————————————
Ethan ( wheat thin ) Sinclair
@OddSinclair
Ya boy done, with movie numba one.
—————————————————————
** FIRST PHOTO – LEFT SIDE
Left to right.. Ethan Sinclair, actor Miles Teller ( playing McDonough ), Alan Sinclair
US Forestry aquamarine-colored Crew Carrier is in the background with the FAKE name of BLUE RIVER HOTSHOTS fully painted where a real Type 1 IHC name would normally be.
** SECOND PHOTO – UPPER RIGHT SIDE
Left to right… Ethan Sinclair, and ( apparently ) Latino actor Rene Herrera, who is listed on the FILLUM’s IMDB page as playing the (quote) “Blue River Hotshot Captain”.
Background just shows ‘basecamp’ for that shooting session.
** THIRD PHOTO – LOWER RIGHT SIDE
Left to right… Ethan Sinclair, actor Miles Teller ( playing McDonough ).
Almost the same as photo 1… but this time just Ethan and Miles ( and without Ethan’s DAD Alan Sinclair in the photo ).
In the background ( to the RIGHT ) is another shot of the the BLUE RIVER HOTSHOTS Crew Carrier… and in the background ( to the LEFT ) is a vehicle that looks like just a pickup with a camper top painted to look like a ‘Prescott Fire Department’ vehicle ( white with red stripes )… but it also has “Granite Mountain Hotshots” painted on the back tailgate.
It’s unclear if this is an ‘actual’ vehicle that might have been rented from the City of Prescott… or something just ‘made up’ for the movie.
Neither the GM ‘Superintendent’ or ‘Chase’ trucks appear to have been just simply a pickup with a camper top.
NOTE: Miles Teller is actually a tall person… but Alan Sinclair’s son Ethan is UNUSUALLY tall, which is why he is ‘towering’ over Teller ( and even his father ) in these photos.
So they really ARE taking this thing ‘off the rails’ of the TRUTH with at least the IMPORTANT ‘detail’ of what the NAME of the other Type 1 IHC Hotshot crew that was working alongside Granite Mountain really was.
There is a ‘story’ there that has yet ( but I’m sure will eventually ) ‘be told’ about WHY this is so.
As in… whether the ‘movie people’ just DECIDED this on their own or whether that US Forestry Service and/or the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ organization and/or ( perhaps ) even just Blue Ridge Hotshots themselves REFUSED to ‘cooperate’ with this production and this TRUBUTE film and they are FORCING the movie people to “leave them totally out of it” and never mention their REAL names.
And while it remains unclear if Alan Sinclair himself ( one of author John Maclean’s research assistants along with someone named Holly Neill ) has any kind of ‘official’ relationship to this movie as either a ‘paid’ or ‘unpaid’ consultant… it now remains EQUALLY UNCLEAR whether Alan Sinclair just ‘arranged’ to have his own son play a part in the movie… or whether that happened in any kind of ‘normal’ way.
There are NO prior ‘acting’ credits for ‘Ethan Sinclair’, and his name does NOT appear on the official IMDB cast list as of this writing.
If the movie directors truly want facts instead of fiction Joy Collura can compile a list of at least 50 top men, most wild land fire fighters that should be consulted. For proper details, WTKTT is top on the list–JD, Gary Olson, RTS, Norb, Muzzy, Bob Powers, Dr. Ted Putnam, RockSteady, Provencio, just to name a few. Nine out of ten are elite wild land firefighters and cover an encyclopedia of knowledge when it comes to fighting wild fires. Seems instead the movie directors are relying on a rookie that barely knew anything about wild land fire fighting and a widow that has an agenda.
It kind of reminds me of the movie “Everest”. They made it look like the guy that was in charge of taking people up there as some sort of hero. If you read it right he was inadequately prepared and caused the deaths of people he had accepted big money from to guide them up there. Like Marsh, he died trying to rectify his mistakes and save people not physically fit to make such a trip–people he should have never even hiked. Yet the movie made a rascal look good in the public eye.
WTKTT,
Re: So they really are taking this off the rails’ of the TRUTH with at least the IMPORTANT ‘detail’ of what the NAME of the other Type 1 IHC Hotshot crew that was working alongside Granite Mountain really was.
I’m curious to know why the small detail of the name of the IHC is of such importance to some of you. Yes, it may indicate that the Feds refused cooperation, but AFAIK, there is no trademark on unit names, so it was probably the director’s choice not to use the name. Maybe they wanted to inject a non-white face into an otherwise all white cast. If so, the choice of an Hispanic actor may be a hidden tribute to Coconino, Geronimo, and other units that are mixed Anglo, Hispanic, and Native. I’m down with that. Changing the name would make sense.
I have lots of concerns about how this story will get the Hollywood treatment, but changing unit names isn’t in the top 10. Charlie mentioned “Everest,” which I didn’t see, but I did read the true story and agree that there was a lost opportunity there, one very similar to this one, to show the compromises that are made when a leader perceives an existential threat to his livelihood. I recently rented a video of a real hero/rescue situation (The Finest Hours) that could have been so dramatic if the director had just told it in near real time, but instead they opted to insert a fiancé and back story that didn’t happen and that added nothing but a pretty face, and a sappy ending that was the payoff. In real life, the hero was married, his wife was home sick with a cold, and she didn’t even see him until he came off duty a few days later. There was lots of noise and water in between, but little feeling for how frightening it must have been to be out in a nor’easter in an overloaded boat at night.
Hollywood has been asked to provide more rolls for women, but tacking two dimensional pretty girls onto stories like this, which are all about the dynamics of all-male groups, does nothing to advance diversity, and ruins the main story.
We won’t know how the GM story will be handled until it cones out, and even the director, actors and writers may not know until post-production, so I will bide my time before passing judgement. I’m pessimistic, but miracles happen.
BTW, concerning the question of whether the Donut rescue by BR was accidental or planned, I believe it was planned in that BR knew they would probably have to rescue the crew buggies and other equipment, as had happened on other fires. Frisby was probably more aware of both Donut’s position and what the fire was doing than anyone on the fire, so he “swung by” to see if he could help. That sounds like a PLAN by a guy who didn’t want the hero treatment, just a guy who was doing his job…
Also see Charlie’s post below:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342341
especially regarding Frisby.
Re: Coconino, Geronimo, and other units that are mixed Anglo, Hispanic, and Native
Not sure where I got Coconino IHC!
I doubt there has EVER been ANYBODY on the Geronimo Hotshots who was NOT from the San Carlos Apache Tribe or at least had a BIA Native American Tribal registration number issued to them based on their Native American blood. The BIA is the only government agency that can legally discriminate based on race…it is called Indian Preference.
So no mixing of the races on those crews…you are almost certainly Native American if you are on a BIA sponsored hotshot crew.
Gary,
You posted: “I doubt there has EVER been ANYBODY on the Geronimo Hotshots who was NOT from the San Carlos Apache Tribe or at least had a BIA Native American Tribal registration number issued to them based on their Native American blood.”
Geronimo Hot Shots (2000) Randy Anderson having served as the Foreman in (1999).
And in (2010-2012) was David Provencio, Jr.
https://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dc/nmsdc/documents/Crews/NMSDC_Hotshot_Crew_History_2013.pdf
Ya…that doesn’t count. I worked with many BIA employees over the decades that did not look any more like a Native American than I do or ever say they were Native Americans.
By BIA standards, you can get a tribal registration number IF you have one drop of Native American blood, which is the way it should be as far as I am concerned. I am not offering any opinion whatsoever on the policy or how it is implemented (see…Elisabeth Warren).
I simply know that they probably DO have that tribal registration number AND that goes on the application or the application goes in the round file.
I am going to BET you that Randy Anderson and David Provencio, Jr. have those numbers…period. Once again…it is called Indian Preference and it IS how the system works…period. The only way that policy is EVER circumvented is if NO Native American applied for the job…or if they need someone so qualified and specialized that no Native American meets that criteria. Maybe Mr. Anderson and Mr. Provencio were those people, maybe a hotshot crew boss could be that special, but they also very well may have their own registration numbers.
Those numbers are not specific to any single tribe or agency, for example, a tribal member from some east coast tribe can apply for a BIA or tribal job in California and receive the same consideration as a member of that California tribe. But someone who is from the tribe of Norsemen does NOT receive any consideration. It’s a pretty good gig if you have, or can get a tribal number and you want a government job.
And I just reviewed the “history” of the Santa Fe Hotshots in this document and some of it I wrote in response to an email several years ago but most of it is WRONG and INCOMPLETE and MISLEADING.
So if that is an example, some of what is written in that history PDF is accurate and it is a good start, but much of it is wrong, incomplete and misleading…probably throughout it for most if not all of the crews.
Reply to Gary Olson post on July 21, 2016 at 5:13 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> And I just reviewed the “history” of the Santa Fe
>> Hotshots in this document and some of it I wrote
>> in response to an email several years ago but
>> most of it is WRONG and INCOMPLETE
>> and MISLEADING.
WONG and/or INCOMPLETE and/or MISLEADING information present on an NIFC ( gacc GOV ) website?
I’m SHOCKED.
SHOCKED, I tell you.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> So if that is an example, some of what is written in
>> that history PDF is accurate and it is a good start,
>> but much of it is wrong, incomplete
>> and misleading…probably throughout it for most if
>> not all of the crews.
Well… if the following ‘blurb’ about the ‘Gernonimo’ Hotshots can be believed… then there was “trouble in River City’ for the entire first FOUR YEARS they were being ‘allowed’ to call themselves a ‘Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew’…
————————————————————
Geronimo Interagency Hotshot Crew History (1991 to Present)
The Geronimo Interagency Hotshot Crew (IHC) is hosted by the San Carlos Apache Tribal Natural Resources Program. The San Carlos Apache Reservation is located in Southeastern Arizona.
In 1991, the crew received its Interagency Hotshot Crew status as the Geronimo Interagency Hotshot Crew, hosted by the BIA San Carlos Agency. From 1991-1995 the crew was unfamiliar with Hotshot responsibilities, and had difficulties functioning appropriately. At the end of the 1995 fire season, with uncertainty in budget, the San Carlos Apache Tribe was approached by the BIA to assume control of the Hotshot Program.
In 1996, the San Carlos Apache Tribal Natural Resources Program began administering the crew under a PL93-638 contract. Michael Longknife assumed the Superintendent position and hired new crewmembers and squad bosses. Longknife, who had previously worked for the Globe and Helena Hotshots, helped advance the crew to its peak capabilities, like an IHC should perform.
————————————————————–
So ( providing this is TRUE )… let me see if I have this right…
1. In 1991… they were ‘certified’ as a REAL ‘Type 1 Hotshot’ Crew with the name “Geronimo Hotshots”… but they were ‘owned and operated’ by the BIA agency based in San Carlos.
2. For the next FOUR YEARS… from first being even ‘certified’ as a full-blown Type 1 IHC Crew…. they had their heads up their asses and were (quote) “unfamiliar with Hotshot responsibilities, and had difficulties functioning appropriately.”… yet they were STILL allowed to be considered a ‘fully functioning’ and ‘fully certified’ BIA Type 1 IHC Crew? For all FOUR of those years when they didn’t seem to even know what they were DOING?
3. After FOUR YEARS of this ‘fully certified’ BIA Type 1 Hotshot crew being known to have its head up its ass… the BIA finally ‘gave up’ on it and, at the end of the 1995 fire season, asked the ‘ San Carlos Apache Tribal Natural Resources Program’ to take this ‘Geronimo Hotshot’ Turkey off its hands?
4. Michel Longknife ( cool name, BTW ) is ‘hired’ and he finally gets these ‘Hotshots’ to the level they SHOULD have been BEFORE they were even certified or ALLOWED to be a ‘Type 1 Hotshot Crew’?
If all of that really is TRUE… that a ‘Type 1 Hotshot Crew’ that was CERTIFIED then spent its first FOUR YEARS of existence not even ‘meeting’ the minimum criteria for a ‘Hotshot Crew’ at all…
…then I refer everyone back to the discussions that have taken place on this forum about that very same situation possibly existing with ‘Granite Mountain’ itself.
If this ‘Gernonimo Hotshot History’ is accurate… then being ‘certified’ to actually BE a ‘Type 1 Hotshot Crew’ at all apparently doesn’t mean a whole hell of a lot.
It seems to mean you can NOT really be qualified… and still get the initial ‘Type 1’ certification… and then you can CONTINUE to be ‘not qualfied’ for YEARS and YEARS… and you never actually LOSE that ‘certification’.
It still remains to be learned WHO actually ‘signed off’ on Granite Mountains’ ‘certification’ that they were fully ready to BE a ‘Type 1 IHC Crew’ in the FIRST place.
Supposedly… THREE different people ‘signed off’ on Granite Mountain when they were still in their ‘Type 1 IHC Trainee’ phase, and after the THIRD ‘sign off’… they were ‘certified’ and that’s when Eric Marsh got the call in the middle of a fire season and then scraped the letter ‘T’ off the bumper of the GM Supt. Truck with his pocket knife… and they all ‘celebrated’.
But we still don’t have the NAMES of ANY of those THREE people that ‘signed off’ on Granite Mountain and ALLOWED them to even be considered a fully qualified ‘Type 1 IHC’.
And the ‘Geronimo Hotshots’ History now shows that even though you can get the ‘certification’… that doesn’t mean you SHOULD have or that you really ARE ‘qualified’ to be a Type 1 IHC Crew.
So Gary,
I read (can’t remember where) of at least two IHCs that prided themselves on their diverse membership. Was I dreaming?
Muzzy.
You posted: “BTW, concerning the question of whether the Donut rescue by BR was accidental or planned, I believe it was planned in that BR knew they would probably have to rescue the crew buggies and other equipment, as had happened on other fires. Frisby was probably more aware of both Donut’s position and what the fire was doing than anyone on the fire, so he “swung by” to see if he could help. That sounds like a PLAN by a guy who didn’t want the hero treatment, just a guy who was doing his job”
Thanks for posting this. I have felt this way all along about the BRHS scooping McDonough.
I always thought Frisby was a lot more aware and cognizant of the deteriorating fire weather and increasing fire behavior. The GMHS’ and their cavalier attitude toward McDonough and his way-too-close trigger point, with no heads up by his own Crew, gave that away.
Yes,
I’ve often thought how sad it is that Frisby hasn’t told his story. Given the times of Marsh/GM interactions with him, and the rescue and the eventual outcome, I think he is the one most in need of debriefing, a one-man lessons taught. I suspect he was at loggerheads with Marsh all day, Frisby trying to find a way for Marsh to do enough to look useful without endangering his crew. He must be heartbroken that he failed, even though it was not his fault, I can imagine he sees it as a failure of his own leadership skills that he couldn’t get through Marsh’s thick skull.
I’d still like to know whose voice was so much louder than Frisby’s and so compelling that those guys ended up where they did.
Muzzy ( and RTS ).
You are both completely WRONG about whether Frisby’s ‘rescue’ of Brendan McDonough had anything to do with Brian Frisby DECIDING to ‘go check on him’ even without being told/asked to do so.
Just a little over an HOUR after Frisby ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan out there near the old-grader as he was on his way out to meet Marsh for that second face-to-face Marsh had requested at 3:27 PM… Brian Frisby himself was RECORDED by Prescott National Forest empllyee Aaron Hulburd telling THEM ( Hulburn, Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) that he had just ‘accidentally stumbled upon the lookout’.
We don’t even need any ‘Unit Logs’ or ‘Interviews’ to confirm this.
The RECORDING has Brian Frisby himself SPEAKING and TELLING Hulburd, Clawson and Yowell that he only accidentally ‘stumbled upon the lookout’ as he was driving out to meet Marsh.
Brendan McDonough himself testified that HE ( McDonough ) believed Frisby had been specifically ‘coming to get him’ even before McDonough could even make a request that he do so…
and McDonough apparently STILL believes this ‘fantasy’… since he said that is what happened in his own ‘for profit’ BOOK…
…but McDonough is ( and always has been ) MISTAKEN.
That is NOT what happened… and even just a little over an HOUR after it happened we have the actual RECORDING of Brian Frisby himself saying that is NOT what happened.
WTKTT,
RE: The RECORDING has Brian Frisby himself SPEAKING and TELLING Hulburd, Clawson and Yowell that he only accidentally ‘stumbled upon the lookout’ as he was driving out to meet Marsh.
I’m sure that’s how he presented it. What was he supposed to say, “Yeah, I knew Marsh would leave Donut out to get crispycrittered so I swung around to pick him up. You should have seen that puny assed safety zone they picked out!”
At that point, he didn’t know they were all goners. He was too much of a gentleman/team player to admit that he was cleaning up after Marsh, as others had done before.
Reply to Muzzy post on July 20, 2016 at 5:35 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> I’m sure that’s how he presented it.
>> What was he supposed to say,
>> “Yeah, I knew Marsh would leave Donut out
>> to get crispycrittered so I swung around to pick
>> him up. You should have seen that puny
>> assed safety zone they picked out!”
I think the moment that Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown dropped Brendan off at the ‘T-Intersection’ just east of the old-grader… right around 12:30 PM… they knew very well that there was NO VALID SAFETY ZONE there in that area… regardless of what Jesse Steed or Eric Marsh had told Brendan.
That’s probably where the offer of “If you need us… just call us and we’ll come get you” came from.
It wasn’t an idle ‘favor’ being offered.
They knew damn well that if this kid got into trouble… SOMEONE with a 4 wheeler was going to HAVE to come and get him…. and since Granite Mountain had managed to get theirs ‘crispycrittered’ on another fire and hadn’t even bothered to replace it… they knew it was “Tag… you’re it” as far as anyone even HAVING a UTV/ATV out there in that area that day.
But that still doesn’t mean that factored into Frsiby’s thinking at 3:26 PM, when Marsh inexplicably asked Frisby to eat dust for 15 minutes and come ALL THE WAY back UP there… for some still-unknown reason….
…and then Frisby ( who had a lot going on himself at that point ) also inexplicably agreed to that ‘request’, at that late hour, and dropped what he was doing to go UP there.
There’s still never been a good explanation as to WHY Marsh wanted Frisby to schlep his ass all the way back UP to the ridge at that crucial point in the burn cycle.
It HAD to be because of something Eric Marsh wanted Frisby to SEE… and to SEE it in a way that Marsh thought only the view fro the ridge would provide.
Otherwise… why not just DISCUSS whatever Marsh had in mind over the radio?
The entire ‘second face-to-face’ still doesn’t even really make much sense… and no one has been able to successfully interview Frisby ( and/or Brown ) to determine is there is MORE to be known about what the second ‘face-to-face’ was even SUPPOSED to be ABOUT ( versus just discussing something over the radio ).
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> At that point, he didn’t know they were all goners.
>> He was too much of a gentleman/team player to
>> admit that he was cleaning up after Marsh, as
>> others had done before.
Well… there’s the rub… eh?
We still have NO IDEA what Type 1 IHC Superintendent Brian Frisby might have ‘thought’ about Eric Marsh and/or the entire GM organization.
He MAY actually be someone who, himself, ended up ‘not too surprised’ that they got themselves killed.
The ‘essence’ of him ( and the other Blue Ridgers ) religiously dodging all attempts to interview them for all this time might be because they are still trying, with all their might, not to ADMIT that they, themselves, thought Granite Mountain was just “an accident looking for a place to happen… and then they found the place”.
Perhaps it’s just a simple as a full commitment to the “If you don’t have anything good to day… don’t say anything at all” approach.
As for “that might just be way Frisby presented it” ( rescuing Brendan )… I don’t think there’s any reason to doubt that it really was all just as ‘matter of fact’ as Frisby described it.
From listening to all the radio traffic and other off-the-cuff recordings that captured Frisby speaking… I don’t think he was known for being any kind of ‘Chatty Kathy’ either ON or OFF the radio.
We don’t HEAR the ‘question’ that either Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell actually ASKED him in that M2U00271 video.
All we hear is Frisby ‘matter of fact’ short ‘report’.
1. I was on my way out to tie in with Eric ( as he requested ).
2. I happened to STUMBLE upon the lookout.
3. I got HIM ( and only him ) out of there.
4. We then got all the buggies out of there.
Bada-bing. Bada-boom.
Dem’s just ‘da facts’.
And I think those WERE ‘da facts’.
In other words… I don’t think at that point where we hear Frisby speaking that he was ‘filled’ with ANY sorts of urges to even ‘downplay’ what he was thinking or feeling… or that the whole situation was an unfolding ( but not unexpected ) ‘fuck up’ on Granite Mountain’s part.
Someone asked him how it was that Brendan was not WITH the others… or something along those lines… and he TOLD them.
No editorializing needed.
Followup…
See a longer post above about this that actually has the exact words that came out of Brian Frisby’s mouth as he was ‘reporting’ what happened with the ‘rescue’, only a little more than an hour after it happened, to Prescott National Forest employees Aaron Hulburd, Jason Clawson, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
Frisby TOLD them…
“I just happened to STUMBLE upon the lookout.”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342393
Well if the movie makers faked the Blue Ridge Hotshot’s name by calling them the Blue River crew then we know this is going to be another fiction. The Blue Ridge refused a situation that would have gotten them killed–seems they get little attention but I have heard that a few intend to tell what they know someday. Under the contract they have they are obligated to keep mum about what they know. But someday that rule will no longer be valid.
This thing has already taken years–some are angered that people on this site continue to search out facts. They have too–pages and pages of testimony have been blacked out–if you don’t believe that get hold of their official investigative reports. These type cover up and self serving investigations often take years to get to the truth. But in this day and age of the internet too many wise men are not happy to brush this tragedy under the rug. They want facts not fiction. Not only the loved ones deserve it but the tax payer that was billed millions for a fire that by all good reason could have been doused the very first day it started. The excuse that it was too risky to put wild land fire fighters to work during the night hours doesn’t work. Norb tells me in these hot conditions he has had his crews preferring to work the night hours–it is cooler and is nothing but part of the wild land fire fighting work. Two or three good men could have been there in thirty minutes or less–had it contained when it was in the bud and in the boulders. Yet three local fire departments refused to make the effort. You can bet if they had seen a camp fire up there they would have been there in a heart beat. Conditions were extreme and they can spot a cigarette at 5 miles. What has become of our fire fighting world–shit my Dad and I contained similar lightening strikes only with shovels and picks at a greater distance from camp than this one was from Yarnell and in steeper terrain. The newly educated fire man–is it preferred that the fire becomes a million dollar affair–and in this Yarnell incident–a man killer as well. I have to admit those agent orange retardant drops make a nice spectacle–but that is another subject.
Here’s an interesting January 26, 2015 article by CRAP inventor Ivan Pupulidy in the IAWF Wildfire magazine titled: “Novices, Experts, and Errors: Toward a Safer Fire Ground.”
http://wildfiremagazine.org/article/novices-experts-and-errors-toward-a-safer-fire-ground/
His section headings and illustration titles include: “Introduction: “Daring greatly” and a shift to learning; Approaches to Error; Experts and novices; Table 1. Expectations of Novice and Expert (adapted from Flyvbjerg 2001); Table 2. Five levels of learning: Novice to Expert (adapted from Dreyfus & Dreyfus in Flyvbjerg 2001); a Summary: A learning approach to prevention, and a fairly good Bibliography of sources.”
His summary includes: “The first article in this series (“Recognize error to prevent accidents,” August 2014) discussed the journey from novice to expert. This article introduces the importance of understanding the differences in perspectives between novice and expert and it shows how experts, acting in a complex system, can find themselves in unfamiliar situations. Recognizing that the environment is delivering the unexpected may be easiest for the expert; however, this requires humility and allowing oneself to be vulnerable enough to admit that all the answers are not known.”
“There is also a growing understanding that the novice has a very important perspective to offer, which can only be useful if we are all humble enough to ask, listen and engage in group sensemaking. It is important for both leaders and followers to consider the importance of “upward voice” – beginners/novices should embrace the discomfort of vulnerability and speak up; experts should embrace the discomfort of vulnerability and create a safe environment for the powerless to speak up, when they see something “dumb, dangerous or different.””
“Simple, complicated and complex systems produce very different results, ranging from the predictable to the highly uncertain. As a result, interaction with these systems in the moment and during reviews has to be very different. While simple systems may respond to linear management processes, complex systems require sensemaking, learning and improvisation, instead of command, control and checklists (McDaniel 2007). Expertise improves a leaders’ ability to recognize complex situations that require adaptive responses. Understanding the difference between these systems and the role of error recognition must be reflected in the review of incidents and accidents, so that we can include learning in our approaches to prevention.”
We will also need to check out his first article in this series (“Recognize error to prevent accidents,” August 2014).
that name rings a bell..putting Dr. Ted Putnam aside where I know he was mentioned there at some point..did he ever in his life live in Las Cruces , NM like 80-84′ where Sonny raised his kids on a golf course and is he almost rounding up to 60y.o.- ??? same fella? I also knew an Ivan but back in Jersey long ago…when I was a 1940-50’s dancer…you do not hear that name often…ok heading to read article but heading seems familiar—I may of read it already but thank you RTS
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 19, 2016 at 8:13 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Here’s an interesting January 26, 2015 article by CRAP inventor Ivan Pupulidy
>> in the IAWF Wildfire magazine titled: “Novices, Experts, and Errors: Toward
>> a Safer Fire Ground.”
http://wildfiremagazine.org/article/novices-experts-and-errors-toward-a-safer-fire-ground/
Thank you for that link. Indeed… ‘interesting’ stuff ( given WHO the author is ).
I’d also draw everyone’s attention to something that was posted back in the last chapter of this ongoing discussion which contained some pretty revealing ‘off the cuff’ comments on a Facebook page from this ‘infamous’ Ivan Pupulidy guy.
The complete post is here…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-336612
It contains a copy of a PUBLIC discussion about the Yarnell Fire that took place on Type 1 Hotshot Superintendent Don Feser’s PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ page and also included OTHER ‘Type 1 Hotshot Superintendents’.
On April 10, 2015 ( a year and a month ago ), Don Feser had a PUBLIC conversation on his Facebook page following the article that John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA wrote about how “Brendan McDonough will testify if legally required”.
And Don Feser was pulling no punches with regards to the SAIT investigation.
He set the ‘tone’ of the conversation with this comment…
“Nobody bothered to ask McDonough what the last inter-crew radio messages were? They must have used the “if you don’t want to know the answer, don’t ask the question” investigative technique.”
and this comment of his as well…
“What I have read regarding Yarnell doesn’t pass the smell test.”
And it went on from there… with ‘agreement’ about the ‘Tactical Errors’ obviously made in Yarnell and WHY the SAIT had REFUSED to mention what was so obvious.
Basically a SCATHING review of the SAIT from these former Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendents and high-level Wildland Firefighters… and an opinion from Feser himself that Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, and other SAIT members probably need to (quote) “go down” for the botch job they did.
And guess who was actually PART of this PUBLIC conversation?
The mysterious Ivan Pupulidy… who we now know was basically the ‘secret author’ of the SAIT’s “Nobody did anything wrong, Move along” narrative.
Here is just ONE of the PUBLIC comments that Ivan Pupulidy made…
————————————————————————————————-
Comment from: Ivan Pupulidy – April 10, 2015 at 10:40 PM
We should begin to question some of the assumptions we hold dear in favor of learning from normal work. I am personally really tired of accidents. Bill Miller shared a statistic at FML that the land management agencies loose an average of 16 people per year – when will we give up secrets to keep our friends alive?
———————————————————————————————-
“When will we give up SECRETS to keep our friends ALIVE?”
Ivan Pupulidy
On the thought of accidents–One would wonder if the bicycle accident Marsh had could have affected his irrational decision to order his crew into the manzanita trap. View Joy’s photos of the very area the crew perished in that box canyon. She had taken the photos early the morning of June 30, 2013 when we worked our way through the maze to get to the fire edge while it was still in the boulders atop the Weaver Range. Amazingly we watched Marsh cross the fire edge several times–twice to converse with us–we were within a few yards of the fire edge that early morning at least an hour before the rest of his crew began their trek up the mountain.
Once the fire worked itself down the mountain and got into that manzanita then it became the horrendous wildfire spectacle that not even an army could have contained. These men were watching it from a different spot on the two track than where we were–actually Joy and I watched it take off about a quarter mile south of where they were and near where they decided to go down.
One thing ought to be changed–that is that is that to be a wild land fire fighter one must strictly take orders on a daily basis. If your boss has you breaking wild land fire fighting safety rules you ought to be encouraged to refuse instead of being obligated to strictly take orders. I believe if these men had been trained to refuse to disobey common sense safety rules that the bosses were willing to break, they would be alive today.
Provencio, RTS, and some other wild land fire fighting superintendents remaining anonymous had seen the GMHS crew as a disaster destined to happen–their refusal to put their own crews in situations that were against the safety rules of wild land fire fighting shows their concern for the safety of their crews. When I asked Norb, a man retired now who supervised two wild land fire fighting crews if he would have sent his men down in that canyon with that fire where it was and weather conditions know, he said absolutely not. But he is only one of the many fire fighters who have looked at the situation and said the same. It goes to show that you can be a superintendent of a crew but not necessarily a savvy one.
There was indeed one hero that is not much mentioned. Brian Frisby of the Blue Ridge crew that saved Donut. Donut would have been another casualty had not Frisby shown up on an ATV. There was no way Donut could have made it out on foot and had he deployed with his flimsy fire blanket at the old grader as he had in mind, he certainly would have perish. The tires burned off that and even the floor plate of steel turned blue with some old cream cans very close to the grader having the lead seal melted out like a tear drop.
Strangely these men had fought a very similar fire in manzanita right out of Prescott (Doce Fire). They should have known the danger of trying to challenge that type hot fire, especially the fact that you never go downhill toward a fire like that, and they would have known how difficult that thick manzanita is to get through. There is no running if the wind changes–that the knew was going to happen from meteorological reports. They should have known a canyon acts as a chimney and even without the chimney a wildfire goes twice as fast with only a 10% uphill grade. Weren’t they knowledgeable that they were breaking all the LCES? Certainly they had no lookout, and claimed communications were screwed up, they had no escape once down in that box canyon and the safety zone they provided for themselves was totally inadequate in a manzanita patch.
People continue to make out like these bosses that ran the Yarnell Hill Fire are heroes even though they made a mess of their job and wound up killing 17 innocent soul
.Perhaps most all first responders are heroes to take on a risky job as is a veteran willing to risk his life. But when you put three bullets in a six shooter and spin the cylinder, then stick it to your head and pull the trigger–that is your choice. But when you stick it to 17 other heads, not your own, then you have committed a crime. So I see that strictly obeying orders from a superintendent that has no clue and is willing to go against all common sense and all rules of safe wild land fire fighting is a situation that needs plenty of modification.
First rule after those deaths is to reveal the truth. The first rule goes along to save lives of future wild land fire fighters. Reputation protection and cover up is bullshit when it is at the expense of lives. ADOSH was right in fining the max on this job–was it $500,000? They knew it was a fuck up–and so do too many wild land fire fighters who know the facts.
Charlie said: Brian Frisby of the Blue Ridge crew…
MY REPLY- True story of the Fallen 19 Firefighters of the Granite Mountain Hot Shots Crew from Prescott Arizona–http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/trivia?ref_=tt_trv_trv — yet we just again on IM “proved” EVEN the movie is not TRUE-
BLUE RIVER, Charlie…you see…they changed the name on us…where have we been…not in any caves lately?
It’s a bullshit,
Here is a March 7, 2014 Wildfire Magazine article by Richard C. McCrea titled “The Yarnell Hill Fire: A review of lessons learned.” Wildfire magazine is published by the (IAWF) The International Association of Wildland Fire.
Not really any new insights here, although he does echo what we have been saying for years:
“The real story is YH was much like many other entrapments in the last 20 years and the mistakes made are nothing new. I might as well have been writing about the South Canyon Fire of 1994. Other reviews of entrapment fires during the last 20 years have pointed out many of the same deficiencies in team management and safety practices. Are we condemned to keep making the same mistakes far into the future?”
“Skookum is a native American word used by some tribes in the Pacific Northwest, which means someone that could be counted on and reliable and hard-working. We need skookum leaders that will make wise decisions or we are condemned to repeating the same mistakes and a YH type tragedy will happen again.”
He talks of the Federal fire policy, IMT’s, fire behavior, Wildland Urban Interface, revisiting tactics and strategy, and more, however, there is NO actual discussion on Human Factors and only a brief quote from author Stephen Pyne regarding leadership and Human Factors, i.e. “flawed judgement.”
— Stephen Pyne, Proceedings of 3rd Fire Behavior and Fuels Conference, October 25-29, 2010, Spokane, Washington, USA. International Association of Wildland Fire.
http://wildfiremagazine.org/article/the-yarnell-hill-fire-a-review-of-lessons-learned/
I like Stephen Pyne… He is a quality man like John MacLean and Dr. Ted Putnam..it was funny because I was reading his book when the week he emailed us for a unique hike and time and I did not know he was emailing me so timing but very much like the way those three men present themself to the world…yes even though Maclean’s friends told me what he said about me…still like him…how can you not…good man. Well storming here. We tried to help Leo the homeless man to get him out of rain but he said he has a ride he was waiting on for Dr appt but so many people look so sick and I keep getting you look healthy (healthy means Joy put on weight and they are being kind…) I am doing hard labor lately but it ain’t helping and I’m eating right and alkaline… But shhh I do like a quality beef jerkey once in awhile…no lectures.. We all have something we do that ain’t good…Josh, thought about you when I was helping the homeless man…how is your brother doing…tell your brother I said hello…hope to see him soon.. Let him know I want to hike the trails with him….he is welcome anytime… Serious let him know..
Soft smiles..
So RTS
So many repetitive moments than how come back in the day when 14 died …why didn’t the film industry make a whole HOLLYWOOD film on those hotshots name not on the industry… What made these 20 stand out enough to have their own movies and gobs and gobs of money that no other tragedy in the industry saw …I have never understood why other hotshots can’t be honored but there is a movie on the gmhs only…can you help me make sense on that… Here we have HOW many similar tragedies but now its time to make a movie???? Why not then?
Joy,
Regarding the 1994 South Canyon Fire, the 14 that were killed were a mix of Hot Shots, Smokejumpers, and 2 Helitack.
As far as why there was no movie for this 1994 fatality fire compared to the YH fire, I have no idea.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 19, 2016 at 6:44 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Here is a March 7, 2014 Wildfire Magazine article by Richard C. McCrea
>> titled “The Yarnell Hill Fire: A review of lessons learned.” Wildfire magazine
>> is published by the (IAWF) The International Association of Wildland Fire.
>>
>> Not really any new insights here, although he does echo what we have
>> been saying for years:
http://wildfiremagazine.org/article/the-yarnell-hill-fire-a-review-of-lessons-learned/
Thanks for that link. Totally RELEVANT.
>> WTKTT said…
>> Thanks for that link. Totally RELEVANT.
…and ( I should have said )… Totally WELL WRITTEN.
It’s amazing even this one no-nonsense article hasn’t received more recognition.
The TRUTH hurts… but much less than burning to death does.
Charlie this one is up your alley. http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/07/19/usfs-having-difficulty-hiring-firefighters-to-suppress-wildfires-in-area-contaminated-with-asbestos/
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
The take-away from Rattlesnake Fire was don’t bring lunch down so you can’t see the fire but what is the takeaway in your minds from the Yarnell fire. We learn lessons in this so what are yours.
Gary Olson may disagree with you:
http://www.ourfiregods.com/battlementcreekfire.html
The take-away from Rattlesnake Fire was don’t bring lunch down so you can’t see the fire but what is the takeaway in your minds from the Yarnell fire. We learn lessons in this so what are yours.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 18, 2016 at 2:56 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I think Jeff is playing Duane S.
>>
>> it adds up behind the scenes-
Looks like TODAY was the ‘first day on set’ over there in New Mexico for actor Jeff Bridges, and the following PUBLIC Instagram photo seems to CONFIRM that Bridges will, in fact, be ‘playing’ Prescott’s FIRST ‘Wildland Division Chief’ Duane Steinbrink in the ‘FILLUM’…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BIAsrMtjLIG/?taken-by=jonwad
———————————————
July 18, 2016 – 1:00 PM ( 7 hours ago )
jonwad
Great day in the studio w Jeff Bridges.
Here w our director and the REAL Duane ( Steinbrink ).
#granitemountain
———————————————
That really IS Duane Steinbrink there on the left side of the photo along with actor Jeff Bridges ( center ) and director Kosinski standing on the right. It also looks like former GM-Hotshot-turned-actor Pat McCarty there with his BACK to the camera.
So if Jeff Bridges really is playing ‘Duan Steinbrink’… it begs the question about whether there is even any character in the ‘FILLUM’ named ‘Darrell Willis’?
NONE of the other male cast members ( other than Bridges ) shown on the IMDB page is anywhere near Darrell Willis’ age.
Are they just going to give the ‘Darrell Willis’ character a ‘clear miss’ in this TRIBUTE ‘fillum’?
OR ( perhaps? ) did the ‘real’ Darrell Willis somehow REFUSE to give his own permission to even be ‘represented’ in this ‘fillum’… or something?
I guess we’ll find out.
By the way… the people who are REALLY out there ‘hunting’ for anything and everything they can find that has anything to do with this movie are, of course, the pre-existing FAN CLUBS for all the actors involved in the film.
Here’s just one that is posting almost HOURLY with ‘new information’, photos, videos ( anything they can find ) regarding this in-progress ‘FILLUM’…
It’s the ‘Taylor Kitsch’ FAN CLUB…
http://www.fanforum.com/f309/%5Bno-exit-granite-mountain%5D-thread-1-we-cant-wait-see-taylor-firefighter-63171824/index15.html
wwtktt said: OR ( perhaps? ) did the ‘real’ Darrell Willis somehow REFUSE to give his own permission to even be ‘represented’ in this ‘fillum’… or something?
MY REPLY: I know we the eyewitnesses/hikers/last civilian hikers to see the GMHS REFUSED any future books or movies unless they fact check with us before anything went out to the world-
we saw what has been placed out and want NO part in ANY future articles, news/media, books or movies or even plays for that matter.
I am watching for the eyewitness hikers (us) (best to omit us) in any format that makes another money nowadays that is not having a set aside income for these GMHS kids’ futures in writing-I do have on the back burner a “willing” lawyer who practices in the areas of government investigations, professional liability, and civil litigation in the “exact” area I would need if needed so make sure your powers to be clearly” get that anyone thinking to use us or the NOT TRUE narrative in SAIR about us- for almost 3 decades this is that lawyers field- every lawyer I have dined with and had good times in downtown Phnx heard my behind the scenes facts/documented journey and they even say wow Joy that could of never happened any better (perfect lawyer) so I may be a housewife desert walker with no income but I now know the right folks — I can see how people feel more confident when they feel they got a lawyer to help them out…because all I have to do is the ground work of document, document, document and that includes certain ones of the YCSO outfit and their actions towards the hikers because every area matters-
even chief Ben Palm and his very slow acknowledgement letter of my FOIA request matters—“just saying”…also Peeples Valley fire dept…and etc…
by the way you are AI 🙂
you seem to have a better handle on things but good to see a public confirmation of what I just wrote about…right Muzzy…
**
** TENDERFOOT FIRE UPDATE
**
** CHIEF BEN PALM STILL INSISTS ‘FUEL ABATEMENT’ SAVED THE TOWN
Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm appears to be ‘doubling down’ on his claim that some kind of massive ‘fuel abatement’ effort is what kept the recent Yarnell ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ from ravaging the town.
He ( Palm ) just made a new BLOG post on the Yarnell Fire Department website.
http://yarnellfire.org/tenderfoot-and-many-more-2/
From that BLOG post…
—————————————————————————–
TENDERFOOT AND MANY MORE
By Chief Ben Palm
On June 8th, Yarnell residents experienced the fury of another fire. This time, the blaze called Tenderfoot, took no homes and more importantly, no lives. Yarnell Fire District wants to thank all of our residents for taking preparedness seriously. We all learned valuable lessons from the 2013 fire, and this time we were a prepared community. The recent Fuels Abatement Project proved successful in protecting our homes. The initial attack on Tenderfoot was also an important factor. But the community’s preparedness by creating defensible space and doing as Emergency Officials instructed was also a very important step in protecting lives and property. As your fire Chief, I personally thank you and the YFD Board of Directors for their support of the Fuels Project. I also thank YFD Captain John Rice and Volunteer Jeff Shearer, who responded in the initial attack.
—————————————————————————–
The recent Fuels Abatement Project proved successful in protecting our homes.
There is still absolutely NO indication that ANY serious ‘fuel abatement’ work was done there on the EAST side of Yarnell prior to the June 8 ‘Tenderfoot fire’.
There is also NOTHING on the Yarnell Fire Department website itself that gives any indication WHERE any of this ‘work’ that Chief Ben Palm keeps referring to might have even been done.
**
** ASK AWAY
Just a general ‘announcement’.
It’s been brought to my attention that someone is trying to ‘contact’ me regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Someone who is known to be doing their own ‘research’ into the incident and who is also known to be ‘reading’ this Forum.
Well… here I am.
Ask away.
There’s nothing to be afraid of.
Re: Well… here I am.
Ask away.
There’s nothing to be afraid of.
Just in case the person has tried to comment but does not seem to be successful due to anti-spam measures, keep trying. New posters should be aware that posts containing more than one link will be held for moderation, and you may need to post three or four posts before they are published, even without links.
this is person is not new to here Muzzy- they can write without the anti-spam concerns.
I said alot but it was too long and probably best not public-
so to keep it simple.
The madness of misinformation and misleading and deception-
it has to stop…
nothing good can come from anything but documented facts not redacted narratives-
or more will perish..oh yeah Twisp fire…oops….
The Lebowski deserves his plug on IM 🙂
I think Jeff is playing Duane S.
it adds up behind the scenes-
“Marvel” Duane Allen Steinbrink…
these actors and ones playing actors…
they have to know this is like BIG BROTHER tv reality on cbs…they have “no clue” who the person is feeding me and my background in who is who I know…look around Josh…who is it that let’s me know what’s up—who can you trust on set to just let loose?
Tell me I am wrong about Jeff playing Duane 😉
“diary room” time 🙂
http://www.rustypistolscowboyband.com/
this is Duane…
Experience-
Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
1974 – 2010 (36 years)
Wild land Division Chief as well as next door neighbor to Eric Marsh…and I can go on…
So Josh wants to make attacks on IM…I am just documenting, documenting, documenting since 6-28-13…keep at it…the twists can keep twisting but in the end the truth will be there…
http://westernnews.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/news/tease/legacy/dcourier/120931a_t715.jpg?529764a1de2bdd0f74a9fb4f856b01a9d617b3e9
this is Duane
Bridges can pass for him here:
guy on right:
http://img.deseretnews.com/images/article/mcontentimage/1168101/1168101.jpg
Yes… some pretty good facial ‘similarities’ between Prescott’s FIRST ‘Wldland Division Chief’ Duane Steinbrink and actor Jeff Bridges…. especially when he has a ‘laugh’ or a ‘smile’ going on.
But I do wonder… if they are going to use their ‘expensive’ investment in Bridges to play Duane Steinbrink… then is there even going to be a ‘character’ named ‘Darrell Willis’ in the film at all?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 18, 2016 at 2:56 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I think Jeff is playing Duane S.
>> it adds up behind the scenes-
I could see that. Jeff Bridges even LOOKS a little like Duane Steinbrink, the FIRST ‘Wildland Division Chief’ for the City of Prescott.
He’s the one that Eric Marsh thought he might ‘replace’ as ‘Wildland Division Chief’ when Stenibrink retired in 2010… but Eric Marsh got ‘passed over’ for that job at that time and the City of Prescott brought former STRUCTURE department Fire Chief ( and non-wildland firefighter ) Darrell Willis out of retirement instead.
Someone didn’t think Eric Marsh was ‘ready’ for the ‘Wildland Divison Chief’ position.. so in came non-wildland FF Darrell Willis.
But if Jeff Bridges is going to be PLAYING ‘Duane Steinbrink’… then I wonder if ‘Darrell Willis’ character is even in the film at all.
Maybe the ‘movie people’ are going to just use Bridges as some kind of COMPOSITE character who is supposed to represent BOTH Duane Steinbrink AND Darrell Willis?
Obviously if the ‘movie people’ have already decided to just change the NAME of the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to the “Blue River Hotshots”… then they don’t give much of a crap about being ‘accurate’.
So maybe they are going to just ‘pretend’ that Duane Steinbrink never retired at all… and have Bridges play him and pretend he really was the ‘Prescott Fire Department Wildland Division Chief’ even on the day all of the GM Hotshots burned to death.
If you are going to pay those multi-millions of dollars just to even HAVE someone like Bridges in your ‘movie’… then you don’t just make him the “third firefighter from the left”.
You get your MONEY’S WORTH and give him a FEATURED role.
**
** ACTOR JOSH BROLIN LAUNCHES A PUBLIC ATTACK ON INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA
Well… I guess THIS was sort of ‘bound to happen’.
Apparently… someone has only now ‘informed’ actor Josh Brolin ( who is playing Eric Marsh in this Granite Mountain ‘movie’ thing ) that there is ( and always has been ) a PUBLIC discussion taking place about the National Historic Tragedy know as the “Yarnell Hill Fire”… and that ONE of those ‘places’ is right here on this ongoing InvestigativeMEDIA PUBLIC forum.
About 15 hours ago ( at 1 or 2 AM in the wee hours of the morning? )… Josh Brolin posted a ‘screenshot’ of the ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ site on his own PUBLIC social media ( Instagram ) page.
That PUBLIC photo ( with his own PUBLIC commentary and, after 15 hours, the PUBLIC comments of others who follow his PUBLIC social media site(s) )… is HERE…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BH80HK1jtoi/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
Josh Brolin’s own PUBLIC comment(s) are below.
He actually had a LOT to say ( moreso than usual when he posts a PUBLIC photo )…. and it is all “as one might expect” from someone who doesn’t even seem to know that there are still many, many QUESTIONS that remain regarding what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013…
———————————————————————————–
joshbrolin
Hey folks. I want everyone to follow this site. It’s some bozo named Joseph or Jonathan or James Doughtery who’s supposedly (you can tell he wrote his own Wiki page) an award winning investigative journalist who has figured out that our extremely non-investigative but respectful story about the perishing of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots in June of 2013 is being played by non-hotshots!!! Actors!!! And advisors who are making sure we stay as close to the verbiage hotshots and Wildland firefighters alike use (because we don’t know given WE’RE ACTORS!!!) are being called out as going Hollywood! Strangely Hollywood is New Mexico and New Orleans now. It hasn’t been Hollywood for a long time. Personally, we are trying to tell stories that are socially relevant and moving as America hits a high dislike around the world. To tell a crew of hotshots stories seems to conjure part of what has made America great: a sense of community, selflessness, unspoken altruism, and of course, shitty pay. We aren’t making these hotshots into martyrs but, rather, respectfully acknowledging all wildland firefighters for their service and skills. Why is it that there’s always somebody who needs attention and wants to call it dirty when we have @us_hotshots @wildlandfirefighting @wildland_firefighters and many family members supporting us to no immediate benefit to them? You’re not going away Joe, John, Jason, and you have our attention, but don’t for a second think that you’re bigger than what these fire fighters represented. That is not your legacy. Yours is a different one.
———————————————————————————–
Followup…
The rest of the PUBLIC comments that have already been left on actor Josh Brolin’s PUBLIC photo of the ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ website are also “as one would expect”.
At least we know ( for sure ) know that actor Josh Brolin hasn’t deluded HIMSELF into thinking he is working on a project that is going to shed any real light on what actually happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
At least we know ( for sure ) now that actor Josh Brolin, himself, KNOWS that all he is doing is making a TRIBUTE movie… to the GM Hotshots ( specifically ) and all ‘Hotshots’ at large.
That’s fine. Go for it. Do what you are being PAID ( a LOT of money ) to do.
People WILL go and see it. It might even make money for the producers.
But there are people ( family members included ) who still KNOW there is ‘more to learn’ about HOW and WHY those men died that day… and that there has been an extensive and involved ‘coverup’… and no ‘movie’ is going to make that go away.
Whoops. TYPO up above….
Meant to say…
At least we know ( for sure ) now that actor Josh Brolin hasn’t deluded HIMSELF into thinking he is working on a project that is going to shed any real light on what actually happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
At least we know ( for sure ) now that actor Josh Brolin, himself, KNOWS that all he is doing is making a TRIBUTE movie… to the GM Hotshots ( specifically ) and all ‘Hotshots’ at large.
One thing is certain John Daugherty would certain to be slammed by someone–generally idiots who would deny the facts. Certainly no one denies the idea that most of the men were heroes following orders of two; et.al, who can not claim the title. Young men pushed to their deaths through their agreement to strictly follow orders puts no blame on their part. But the pushers Marsh and Steed, whom in early incidents had proven to squeak by without injuring their men with their dare devil tactics failed when they lost those 17 young souls under their command at Yarnell. The whole fire management was a failure–even to the evacuation of the residents–itself another squeak by situation. Despite the obvious, awards, handshakes and congratulations for saving locals lives were handed out like candy. At least some in ADOSH saw the truth and fined the maximum to people involved in this tragedy.
So why slam JD? It is just that when you stand up with the truth you will always step on some toes. JD’s reputation stands for itself–he is doing a heroes duty by standing in the line of fire. Too bad the actors and directors don’t do through research and consult John with his three plus years of experienced investigation on this fire. They might then agree with ADOSH and many of the elite wild land fire fighters that support IM and are well in agreement with John Daugherty’s investigative reports.
It is too bad Josh and the others involved in the movie are not willing to stand for the truth in this tragedy. If they were willing to stand in the line of fire as we see JD, Gary Olson, Dr. Ted Putnam, RTS, WTKTT, RockSteady, Bob Powers, Provencio Muzzy, Woodsman, Marti, Norb, and so many others–generally found on this site then they could also be heroes to the wild land fire fighting profession. Heroes because they would clean up some bad acting in the management of wild land fire fighting that caused the deaths of those young souls under Marsh and Steed as well as their superiors. They would be heroes because the exposure of the bad actions that Marsh and Steed led their men into were totally out of line with proper wild land fire fighting proceedures. Good God, dropping off into a box canyon of the densest dehydrated manzanita possible, with no look out, no escape route, weather reports of gusts of winds headed directly toward the men and arguements between Marsh and Steed as to leaving the safety of black to enter the most deadly situation to save abandoned structures stinks to high heaven.
Nearly all of the aforementioned men are elite people in the fire fighting profession. They are wild land fire fighters and supervisors of long time experience and wisdom in the field, having supervised their crews properly over decades of time. At least four are known and respected wild land death investigators. I have not listed the many others that post on this site and point out the disasterous way Marsh, Steed and their bosses were allowing and likely encouraging the GMHS crew preform in their dangerous manner. I would like to see any bunch of wild land bosses argue against the reputations and wisdom of the group I have listed above.
Now Joy tells me it seems from her review of the photos concerning the movie that there are many of Donut and Marsh–likely she thinks a movie mostly about those two. Donut is probably among the poorest examples of a wild land wild fire fighter you can find. He has proven this by telling the media that the rules of fire fighting safety are “Hillbilly”. He barely escaped a situation more than once that he should have never been in the first place. Blue Ridge supervisor Brian Frisby saved his ass and that only by chance. Then we have Marsh who certainly failed miserably as a supervisor by neglectfully and needlessly placing his men in high risk situations that eventually got them killed. It is interesting to know he was a nice guy and loved horses, but that did not make him a safe supervisor–information proved by Provencio, RTS and other supervisors who before the death of the 19 watched how motivated Marsh was to prove himself at the risk of his men’s lives.
Sadly in all this is that Mike Dudley and others in the profession turned their eyes from this evidence and testimony of respected supervisors so that reputations could be saved–but this is at the expense of lives of future wild land fire fighter lives. A great expense indeed. Shit, they did not even want Dr. Ted Putnam to hike up to the site, yet he is the renowned wild land fire fighter of wild land death investigations, being a 15 year veteran smoke jumper himself before becoming involved in wild land fire death investigations. Go look at the pages and pages of black out of the Forest Investigation. You would think this was a blacked out CIA investigation of top secret documents of the highest order.
ADOSH even had problems getting to documents that were stalled and redacted, yet their investigation speaks to what is actually going on here. Their maximum allowable fine of a bad management job of the Yarnell Hill Fire tells the story.
You can pretend all you want and deny the voices of the many well informed and knowledgeable men and women that post on this site and thereby you deny the facts in this case. You also then put the young lives of future wild land fire fighters at risk. Protecting your reputation is not worth more than those young lives. That is what some of authority are doing here. It behooves the movie makers, in between their smokes, to wake up to the seriousness of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
In this I have failed to mention the many people that have died here at Yarnell–at 90 deaths out of 645 residents in the three years since the fire. I believe that the retardant that was dumped to the tune of over 230,000 gallons next residences, and now add another 100,000 gallons or so since the recent fire has had much to do with that. There are 8-16% of these ingredients hidden from the public under patent laws so that residents and public near these chemical dumps do not know what they are inhaling. Gary Olson, long time wild land fire fighter now has COPD–wonders did his exposure over the years have anything to do with his recent diagnosis–and I myself also have suddenly come up with the same. And I do know the main ingredient that gives off NH3 ammonia gas is a lung cell destroyer. We need to know the other ingredients and their effects on our health considering how skewed the death toll has been here at Yarnell since the deadly fire. The forest service here has had no qualms in dumping hundreds of thousands of gallons of this shit near our town yet they know there has been no long time study of its effects on human health. I sure as hell will and has killed thousands of fish and aquatic life when accidentally dumped in rivers.
There is much more that certain people want the public to believe concerning the actions at Yarnell during the wild fire that began on June 28, 2013 and when it ended in the deaths of the 19 GMHS on June 30,2013. Some of us are not willing to allow the truth to be hidden behind a smoke screen of lies, blacked out documents, and refusals to listen to men of long experience in wild land fire fighting profession.
**
** ACTOR BROLIN REMOVES HIS PUBLIC ATTACK-POST
Well… sure enough… it appears that someone had a little ‘conversation’ with famous actor Josh Brolin ( like, perhaps, the people that are PAYING him MILLIONS of dollars to appear in THEIR movie ) and ‘reminded’ him that THEY are just trying to MAKE LOTS OF MONEY themselves and they don’t need the kind of ‘controversial publicity’ regarding the effort that Brolin was trying to stir up with his PUBLIC ‘Social Media’ posting(s).
It’s just a TRIBUTE film. Period. End of story. Nothing more / nothing less.
They ( the producers and investors ) do not CARE what REALLY happened to ‘Granite Mountain’… or WHY it might have happened… nor do they care if anyone ELSE cares about the real “Lessons Learned” that might keep OTHER firefighters from suffering the same horrible fate as GM.
They are just making a ‘movie’ that they want people to pay money to go and see… so that they can receive the maximum return on their HUGE ‘investment(s)’ ( Reportedly in the 55-60+ MILLION dollar range ).
That’s all.
Please ‘check controversy ( and the TRUTH ) at the door’.
So famous actor Josh Brolin’s PUBLIC ‘attack post’ of his that he put up in the wee hours of yesterday morning has now ( of course ) ‘disappeared’.
But just for ‘reference’… here are all the PUBLIC comments that had been left actor Josh Brolin’s PUBLIC posting as of last night, before that PUBLIC page ‘disappeared’.
I repeat… these are all PUBLIC comments made on a fully PUBLIC Internet web page at a time when it was STILL PUBLIC and BEFORE it ‘disappeared’.
If people don’t realize that everything that happens on the InterWeb is being RECORDED by public ‘Wayback’ machines and by the caches in their browsers…. well… then they NEED to realize that and remember that when making PUBLIC COMMENTS on PUBLIC web pages.
So here is that PUBLIC page ( and the PUBLIC comments that were left ) as of last night, BEFORE it ‘disappeared’.
SIDENOTE: Most of these PUBLIC comments left on that PUBLIC posting by famous actor Josh Brolin are simply ‘hilarious’ and worth reading just for a good chuckle.
———————————————————————
joshbrolin ( Josh Brolin )
Hey folks. I want everyone to follow this site. It’s some bozo named Joseph or Jonathan or James Doughtery who’s supposedly (you can tell he wrote his own Wiki page) an award winning investigative journalist who has figured out that our extremely non-investigative but respectful story about the perishing of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots in June of 2013 is being played by non-hotshots!!! Actors!!! And advisors who are making sure we stay as close to the verbiage hotshots and Wildland firefighters alike use (because we don’t know given WE’RE ACTORS!!!) are being called out as going Hollywood! Strangely Hollywood is New Mexico and New Orleans now. It hasn’t been Hollywood for a long time. Personally, we are trying to tell stories that are socially relevant and moving as America hits a high dislike around the world. To tell a crew of hotshots stories seems to conjure part of what has made America great: a sense of community, selflessness, unspoken altruism, and of course, shitty pay. We aren’t making these hotshots into martyrs but, rather, respectfully acknowledging all wildland firefighters for their service and skills. Why is it that there’s always somebody who needs attention and wants to call it dirty when we have @us_hotshots @wildlandfirefighting @wildland_firefighters and many family members supporting us to no immediate benefit to them? You’re not going away Joe, John, Jason, and you have our attention, but don’t for a second think that you’re bigger than what these fire fighters represented. That is not your legacy. Yours is a different one.
** COMMENTS
goingdirect
Right on, Mr. Brolin. This blog site is full of vile slander and cruel attacks. It is about time the sewer lid comes off. My hat’s off to you for lifting it up, but beware the stench.
jackkalian
There’s always a Judas-little-c*nt.
_dusty45s_
I have the highest respect for legitimate journalists, whose numbers are extremely low in an age of corporate media in North America. Not only does this guy come across as a stereotypical tin foil hatter, but his writing is terrible, which one would assume to be a core requirement of a journalist.
apd1037
Well said Josh!!! This guy is beyond disrespectful and thinks he is going to uncover something that just is not there and I dont think he cares who he takes down in the process
agmisner (at) joshbrolin ( Amanda Misner ( Wilkinson ) )
don’t let this guy get to you, he has been talking shit about our men ( GMIHS) since day one.
mobraa86
If I were a man I’d take my hat off.
riviera_civiera (at) joshbrolin
he’s from a new generation that does not think of the consequences of what they put online…. Content does not have to be true, factual or even real anymore.
meinturtle
You should cast him as Hysterical Onlooker #2.
song_dog1027
From what I’ve read so far (it’s a little late for a big ol bag of BS) he just seems to string a few big (and somewhat unrelated) words together (probably hoping we’re all too dumb to know what he’s saying, so we’ll just sit there with a dumbfounded look and say “ah ha”), peppered with a few integral names and POOF…..you’re an investigative reporter. There is something about his writing that is very Geraldoish. The sad thing, in all his glory seeking, is that he doesn’t realize he’s hurting people with lies and rhetoric.
song_dog1027
PS…I’m pretty sure my cat could do a better investigative story, while he sat and licked his own ass. Okay, that’s my cue…goodnight.
md506med
I spent two summers on a BLM wildland crew in AZ. I’m happy to see attention being given to the job and (hopefully) more quality folks coming to the table. The fact it’s about Granite Mountain makes it even more meaningful. Thank you.
dodgebreeze
Missing 3-ballers . . Good shiza here Hollywood!
frostystunts
An empty can makes a lot of noise… Usually those with the least knowledge make the most noise
mickharrison1977
JB, thank you and all the crew for making this movie. As for the ‘Investigative Fucktard’, depopulation for him and his ilk would be saving grace of all mankind…by the way, on a more positive note America and her people are not disliked, its just the US political elite, their financiers and foreign policy that are intensely disliked! To that end bollocks to them and carry on making good movies. Slainte!
papa_dash
This asshole has no idea of the dedication, hard work and respect that you men have put into this film. The power of the pen has now revealed the dickhead behind it. I know most of you guys and know how hard you worked for this, thanks guys
hehami
Their story is one of heroism and great sacrifice. It should be told. Keep on truckin, sir!
oddsinclair ( Ethan G. Sinclair )
Lol. I wonder how personally his life is affected by wildland fire fighters. My house hold revolved heavily around it. I grew up around it. You’re doing it a justice josh. I wouldn’t sweat over this joke.
marvelduane ( Marvel Duane Steinbrink )
You have the support from all those that matter. We love and appreciate all that you and the others are doing to honor our 19.
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Exactly WTKTT–not much interest in the real story from the bozo crowd. They can’t bear to have their story challenged when it involves millions. What they do not understand is that Joy and I are survivors of that fire and this old codger stood right there on that two track shortly before those supposed knowledgeable bosses ordered their crew to descend into a trap. I am not a firefighter but damn well knew better to drop off into a trap. You can not make heroes out of bosses that killed their men. However the men that were ordered to their death were heroes–17 young men that believed their bosses knew what they were doing. Now tell me how Marsh and Steed are heroes when they did the unthinkable. Joy and I have hiked too many wild land fire fighters that have surveyed the situation–not one has said it was a heroic idea to drop your crew off into that box canyon with an uncontrollable wildfire apt to change direction anytime. All to a man, and I am talking experienced wild land fire fighting bosses–said that was a complete no-no and against all common sense and the wild land fire fighter safety rules of the ten and eighteen. Try anyway they can but you can not make heroes out of bosses that kill their men on those conditions, nor can you use Donut, a rookie and man without a clue when it comes to wild land fire fighting be a valid representation of what wild land fire fighters are about.
Nothing will convince this old mountain man of what I know from common sense and from every elite wild land fire fighter that investigated the incident. Granted there are a number who have an agenda to make a pigs ear into a silk purse–but it can’t be done with the facts as they are.
However, I will concede that a young man ought be very careful picking a wild land fire fighter boss. He ought to know that some bosses are not really qualified to be that and will needlessly risk your neck. It would be well to be schooled in all the safety rules like LCES and be prepared to refuse to engage when your boss wants you to break them All the LCES were broken by Marsh and Steed–and as a direct result they killed the 17 under them. If anything Marsh and Steed have done as a legacy is to teach wild land fire fighters how not to fight fires or needlessly risk your crew.
Once again… well said Charlie.
Thank you for pointing out again that regardless of anything else that was in the emails that US Forestry employee Mike Dudley was receiving ( shortly after the tragedy ) from respected Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendents was that ‘information’ that it was KNOWN in Hotshot circles that there are some Type 1 outfits that are ‘safer’ than others.
They were telling US Forestry employee Mike Dudley ( the person tasked with doing the official investigation of the greatest blunder in Wildland Firefighting History ) in WRITING that this was COMMON KNOWLEDGE… and there were only a few Type IHC Hotshots in ‘the business’ that they would trust with their own sons LIVES… but Mike Dudley didn’t lift one finger to even ‘follow up’ on that ‘potentially relevant’ information.
So we can only assume that situation, as it was being described to US Forestry employee and SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley, still EXISTS ‘out there’.
That there really might be OTHER ‘Type 1 IHC’ organizations that are ( like Granite Mountain appears to have been ) just an “accident looking for a place to happen”.
When airplanes fly into the ground… it is not uncommon for EVERY SIMILAR AIRCRAFT to be GROUNDED until real ‘investigators’ can say, for sure and certain, that the same ‘threat’ does not exist fleet-wide.
When the ‘Granite Mountain’ Type 1 IHC airplane ‘flew right into the ground and killed everyone onboard’ that day… there should have been a COMPLETE and TOTAL industry-wide review of ‘the fleet’ to make SURE there were not OTHER similar ‘organizations’ that were a similar “accident waiting to happen”.
A complete and total industry-wide qualifications review of ALL ‘supervisory’ personnel… and efforts made to make SURE all of those organizations were following the ‘rules of the profession’ and didn’t think all that was just “Hillbilly stuff” and “we’re smarter than that now” ( Both quotes directly from the only survivor of the Granite Mountain ‘crash’ ).
Even NOW… where would be the HARM in such a system-wide ‘review’… just to make SURE no one else is out there playing Ranger-Danger on any kind of ‘regular’ basis?
Answer: No harm whatsoever.
It would only be a GOOD thing to do… and just MIGHT reduce the chances of another ‘crash into the side of a mountain’ that COULD have been ‘prevented’.
Charlie,
Well said.
You posted: “You can not make heroes out of bosses that killed their men. …. Try anyway they can but you can not make heroes out of bosses that kill their men on those conditions, …. ”
A well respected Hot Shot, within a week of this tragedy, basically said the very same thing: “You can’t make heroes out of somebody that f**ked up.”
So then, ‘they’ must maintain that image of heroes killed by the big, bad fire, and since there was nothing anyone could have done to prevent it, then it was nobody’s fault,
Thanks for saying what needs to be said.
Wwtktt-
you would not see Miles Teller waste his time like Josh did this week and not because he is alot younger just not his style— Josh; placing his energy to do his one-sided attack (the world loves this kid Teller)— Josh needs to realize that Tex Gilligan (Sonny) went back for me in the same exact area those men dropped down that same exact afternoon on 6-30-13 and yet we are alive so we just want to know all the details to make sense of it all— Sonny cannot understand HOW anyone would drop into that basin…box canyon…so when Josh was here in Yarnell- what did you think when you went out there- did you go to the two track road and look down where they passed on? (
)
I cannot even see Jennifer doing that- she is more reserved…and who is Taylor playing; isn’t he like 35? and as far as Jeff Bridges..The Big Lebowski, I can see him and Alex Russell with Sonny enjoying a brew-ski…chilling- that guy is a hoot…I think if we ever do a meet-up party on IM, Jeff should be there 🙂 actually Geoff Stults (from ben part-7th Heaven to I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell part Dan) he is funny as hell too— he is 39 so who is he playing? also who is the evacuee that they are placing in this movie? Ryan Busch playing Deford looks like him…finally they list him but we knew he was long before IMDB..
Gary, as you well know, today is the 1976 Battlement Creek Fire anniversary. This document was attached to the national Situation Report today and all I could provide was a link.
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/six-minutes-for-safety/This-Day-in-History/TDIH_BattlementCreek.pdf
You and Dr. Putnam have commented on the lies and coverups about this fire, so would you please compare this “6 Minutes For Safety” article to the truth of what and why these fatalities actually occurred. Thanks.
I second that request too from Gary; please.
RTS,
Gary can answer for himself, of course, but here is his “Reader’s Digest” version:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-334400
I gather from all I’ve read from Gary (and Putnam) is that the insistence on not laying blame prevents a frank examination of the human factors that led to Battlement Creek and to the Yarnell Hill Fire debacle.
Muzzy, thanks. I forgot about this.
There are readily discrepancies. No, make that outright lies!
The “6 Minutes for Safety” version posted:
“The burnout squad consisted of the crew boss, squad boss and 2 crewmembers. The rest of the crew is improving the handline down the ridgetop. At this same time another crew is burning out in the bottom of the draw (Point C-D). The draw burns readily, uphill toward the ridge and the Mormon Lake crew.
NEITHER CREW KNEW OF THE SPECIFIC LOCATION OR ASSIGNMENT OF THE OTHER.”
And Gary tells us the truth with this on May 5, 2016:
“1, The Happy Jack Hotshots knew exactly where the Mormon Lake Hotshots were…we could see them on the fucking slope above us.
“2. The Mormon Lake Hotshots knew exactly where the Happy Jack Hotshots were, they could see us on the fucking slope below them.”
Regarding the “The burnout squad consisted of the crew boss, squad boss and 2 crewmembers,” the Crew Boss was actively burning out rather than managing his Crew and watching out for them.
“Regarding the “The burnout squad consisted of the crew boss, squad boss and 2 crewmembers,” the Crew Boss was actively burning out rather than managing his Crew and watching out for them.”
Yes, and even worse, the crew boss was well aware that he shouldn’t have been there, but he wanted to stay back to get the burn just so. Then the FS decides (apparently) that the crew boss’s arrogance and the crew’s obedience to patently foolhardy orders was not the problem, only that they should have worn different clothes and carried different equipment. IOW, they could have survived their unsafe acts if they had different stuff, so, keep up the unsafe behavior, we’ll just get you more stuff. Is that the lesson learned that would have saved the 19?
From Gary at the link below:
Darrell Willis told me himself that he was a student of the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster. Don’t you think it might have been helpful for Willis to read what kind of crew boss Tony Czak was and what he did wrong to not only kill himself but two others as well, plus a fourth who was severely burned with third degree burns over most of his body? Maybe Willis could have recognized that quality in Marsh and even managed to associate Marsh’s nickname (One Up) with the potential of the same thing happening to his “sons.” And now don’t you think it might be helpful to possibly saving the lives of future wildland firefighters by linking the reckless behavior of Tony Czak with that of Eric Marsh to clearly demonstrate what CAN and HAS happened?
Here is Gary’s treatise on the staff ride:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-335991
good to see you Muzzy- thank you
Hey Joy,
Hope all is well with you!
muzzy said:
Hey Joy,
Hope all is well with you!
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MY REPLY:
The pain is constant…keeping my body balanced/alkaline and on the bilateral kidney stones down to one present on the scan and the colon after almost into the eighth week I had success and I have to accredit the doctor not me…the apricots and pears and plums and prunes were not a success as much as I would like to admit but the doctor’s methods were and well as it helps one area it causes another area to go odd and then they give you a pill for that but the actual surgery is just in my opinion way off…I am third in line for a cancellation but this month is just waiting and it is Sonny’s month…I sent the crew here the photos of what Sonny pulled down all on his own with a come-along and chain and wench; a forty foot tower..I helped stack and clean but I had nothing to do with the destruction of the tower but I will be making frames from some good barn wood and one will go to the family- as Sonny said we both arrived and were gonna decline the project since it was based free barn wood but out of all the wood not any to equal to the hard labor and heat but then you see the 2 very young kids…I will tell you Muzzy that Josh Brolin has to comprehend alot of us here have been tied to the world he lives nowadays at one phase or another in our lives so we are not gonna “buy” into his 24 hour tactics to make a brownie point amongst those on his set like oh-e we have a genuine movie star on our side—as Josh has done publicly in his life time (name drop)— I only have very minimal just so few can go back and fact check me out but I am not a fan of his recent tactic not only on Investigative Media and his one sided attack but also in his famed position his position on other political areas- he knows better but he is not a groomable guy in that sense- he does what he does when he is up late in the company of people he is trying to make them feel “impressed” by his quickie support tactic; clap, clap Josh…I predicted that it would be down by the 33rd hour—well, overall “doing”…over-heated doing yardwork at Sonny’s thinking of my pool at home…great day to “plunge”…but been more like a “purge” day..projectile vomiting kind of day…thanks for asking…Roy Moore the ol’ rancher died…man too many keep dropping like flies…also Will Smith the actor and Josh Brolin both stated publicly they are not in this world to solve mysteries or investigate crimes…so do not expect the kid to be a person who will really take the time to look and GET what this site is about…the movie will come and the movie will go and the truth will either be there at the forefront or hidden…but the dvd will be in the sale bin when if done properly for all fallen should stay firm in the “truth” documentary section…like a good Pearl Harbor or war movie because in a sense it is a war going out on those lines…I mean look at how many wounded…injured…dead…it could be less disastrous but it seems someone running the show thinks they are being valiant…as the flags are folded and handed to each widow and loved one and the Taps song fades and the bugle players march away…when are we going to be a world that honors the honorable by natural old age deaths not avoidable situations…
**
** PAT MCCARTY AND JOSH BROLIN AT “BROLIN’S PAD”…
Former GM Hothshot-turned-actor-movie-consultant Pat McCarty finally wrangled himself an invitation back to actor Josh Brolin’s multi-million dollar rented PAD where he is staying while playing ‘Eric Marsh’ in this ‘movie’ thing.
Actor Josh Brolin himself posted the following PHOTO on his own PUBLIC Instagram page…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHtXuxij0h8/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
Here is the TEXT that Brolin entered for this PHOTO…
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joshbrolin
Firefighter Pat McCarty and me hanging out the house up on the hill.
We call it 8150 because of its elevation. I just finished a workout.
He just finished a beer. He looks way more relaxed than I do.
#us_hotshots #wildland_firefighters #wildlandfirefighting
#granitemountain #black_label_media
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He ( McCarty ) looks like he’s having a good time. That’s great.
In another Instagram post… actor Josh Brolin stated that former GM Hotshot Pat McCarty isn’t just a ‘consultant/actor’ on the film. Brolin goes so far as to say that McCarty is now the ‘heart’ of the effort and everyone’s ‘inspiration’.
I hope wherever they ‘premier’ this move ( Prescott? Nah. I doubt it ) that they let McCarty walk the red carpet like the rest of the ‘glamoratti’, and not have him sneak in the side door like all the rest of the ‘techies’ usually have to do.
As for the PAD where Brolin is staying… that’s the place that New Mexico film buffs already identified just HOURS after Brolin started posting pictures he was taking from that place on his PUBLIC Instagram account.
People in New Mexico ( and Sante Fe ) recognized the ‘house’ right away.
Josh Brolin is staying HERE, in Sante Fe, while he plays ‘Eric Marsh’ in the movie…
3256 Paseo Del Monte, Santa Fe, NM 87501
Corner of Paseo Ponderosa and Paseo Del Monte, in the Hyde Park Estates area, Northeast of Sante Fe, New Mexico, in Sante Fe County.
The number of the house is painted on the side of the house itself in 2 foot high vertical numbers, just to the right of the garage door.
** BILL GABBERT INTERVIEW REQUEST DELETED?
Also… something ODD just happened.
Just between the time I found this ‘photo’ and was able to ‘copy’ the comment from it above… another ‘comment’ that was right underneath Brolin’s initial TEXT that I also went back to ‘copy’ got DELETED.
There WAS a comment left there on this photo of Brolin and McCarty that was from Bill Gabbert, the sole author of the ‘Wildfire Today’ BLOG site.
Bill Gabbert was commenting ( via his OWN ‘Instagram’ account ) on this photo of Brolin and McCarty… and he also was fully indentifying himself and asking actor Josh Brolin if he could INTERVIEW him for ‘Wildfire Today’.
But that comment has just been DELETED ( by Brolin himself? ).
Something I do hope they add to the movie is the religious angle the GMHS are known for. Jim Jones would have been proud of how the leaders here buffaloed their subordinates into the “God thing”, with the duly appointed and respectfully followed leaders of the group. I am so proud that Donut found a God of sorts. Somewhere down the line it might hit him that the God the GMHS crew had was a bit bogus. Any God that would lead you into an inferno sounds like the devil to me. But Willis did say that God had other plans for them–what?–stoking furnaces?
Well praise the good lord and pass the bullets–maybe a shot of whiskey or a beer too. That is a damn good god with that type thinking–or in other words a lord that gives one brain enough to have one. I like atheists–they tell the truth more often.
I have had some thoughts on this since I was there where they went down. Why would I know better while 19 men did not. It damn sure is not because I am more intelligent. But experience since child hood of living though these storms had inculcated into my subconscious what I knew was going to happen without conscious awareness. Those wind changes had happened with the same conditions so often and suddenly during my childhood that I knew it would happen without having to think about it. Joy did not know it, nor did those men. It was a matter of subconscious for me, and even after I had gotten Joy to follow, it was a task to keep her moving. You can die trying to save others–but we did beat the bell toll by ten or eleven minutes- good enough–but barely.
If you have not watched all the movies that have been produced over the past 70 years they are all Hollywood productions.
The fires are faked the actions of the Fire Fighters are not correct appropriate or factual. The movie is to make money and the more horrific the fire the scenes and the heroism the better. It is a move not a history film.
Every one is heroes no one did any thing that killed the crew they will die HEROES in the movie,
I wont spend my time watching it or commenting on it.
Reply to Bob Powers post on July 17, 2016 at 11:02 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The movie is to make money and the more horrific the fire
>> scenes and the heroism the better. It is a move not a history film.
Yep.
See the ‘new’ post above that has a link to actor Josh Brolin’s own PUBLIC ‘social media’ page where he has now launched how own personal ATTACK against John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA.
It appears that even now…. actor Josh Brolin is completely ‘clueless’ that people like YOURSELF… with your reputation, experience and ‘skin in the game’…. are among those who have never bought into the BULLSHIT following the Yarnell Hill tragedy… and who are STILL concerned about the “Lessons to be Learned” and keeping OTHER firefighters from suffering the same fate as GM.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342153
Hey Bob, I believe everyone one of us on here should watch the movie and make a list of all of the inaccuracies portrayed in the movie, so that when the media and or movie critics start toot the horn of this movie as being so great, they can come to IM and see the list of falsehoods…
Sort of like the old days when you paid your nickel to guess how many jelly beans were in the 1 gallon pickle jar… You pay to play… 🙂
Spending $15 and a couple hours of your time in a dark air conditioned theatre in order to be able to come on here and say “I have seen the movie and its total horse shit” is what your nickel is giving you the first hand opportunity to do..
Maybe we should start it off that everyone can pledge a nickel to see how many wrong things (jelley beans) are noticed in this movie (pickle jar)…
I am going to say 278…
We will have to find an impartial 3 person judging team though in case there is controversy if a bit in the movie is a lie, an inaccuracy, or maybe just an oops that was unavoidable…
I think it’s important to distinguish between factual lapses that serve to make the plot more understandable and those that divert attention from important truths. For example, the names and units of individuals who tried to correct Marsh’s risky and poorly disciplined firefighting style are not important, but if there is no mention of those things at all, an important opportunity is lost. Frequently, movies contain composite characters that represent the same or similar real-life characters in the plot. For example, the whole real-life city government may be represented by the Willis character, such that his words would reflect all the problems with higher-ups. That is ok, as there are already so many people to keep track off. What would be wrong is skirting the issue of budget concerns and the insecurity and even perceived danger to the hotshot crew that might have driven the decision making when the crew left the black, or just as they descended into the box canyon.
I’m afraid that the plot will be driven instead by the false narrative that the virtuous, innovative, and worthy Marsh was driven from firefighting by the big, bad, snobbish Feds, and forged his own path through a supportive and grateful local department who valued him, and his leadership style, which was good-natured but tough.
There are a couple of ways to play this kind of plot. If I were doing this, I would choose Das Boot (submarine story of WWII German captain and crew released in the 60s or 70s) as the model, moody, gritty, taut, slow moving but suspenseful. A story of a good but flawed working stiff just trying to make a living, ground in a mill cranked by powerful men who are far away in miles and worldview. It would be excellent (in my head, anyway), but even in my fantasy, I know it won’t make money.
Let’s face it, this is going to be an action film for 18-35 year old white males. Sorry, Gary, no extra bar pickup opportunities for hotshots!
Reply to Muzzy post on July 18, 2016 at 12:34 pm.
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Frequently, movies contain composite characters that
>> represent the same or similar real-life characters in the plot.
Exactly.
They have already announced that they have ‘cast’ an ‘Incident Commander’ ( Actor John Trejo, who is HALF Roy Hall’s age )… but it’s still not clear who ( or what ) actor ‘Jeff Bridges’ is playing.
My guess there would be ‘Darrell Willis’… but they might be using Bridges ( since he’s so expensive ) as a ‘composite’ of any number of people and ( like you said ) just representing “the powers that be” in Prescott.
But I really doubt that they will ACTUALLY show the screwed-up command structure that was happening in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
Actor Trejo is going to supposedly be an ‘Incident Commander’… and presumably the ‘Roy Hall’ character… but I doubt they are going to even go near the fact that at the time the men died… there were TWO fully functioning ‘Field OPS’ in Yarnell… one of whom ( Paul Musser ) had just ‘jumped in’ to the fire from being just the ‘Planning OPS’ that day… and that this ‘confusion’ might have actually been a contributing factor in the deaths of those men ( Conflicting ORDERS coming from multiple sources ).
Nah… too complicated for just a TRIBUTE movie.
Of COURSE anyone who knows anything about the Yarnell Hill Fire will probably be able to pick this TRIBUTE thing apart all over the place… but the REAL concern is whether or not they take it into ‘La-la Land’ and it ends up TOTALLY ‘off the rails’ with regards to the TRUTH.
Arizona Occupational Safety and Health agency ALREADY determined ( officially ) that it was a VERY screwed-up ‘workplace’…. and they have ALREADY issued HISTORIC fines. The most they have EVER issued against any Arizona employer…. and indeed… the MAXIMUM they were even ALLOWED to issue, by law.
Will this TRIBUTE thing even ‘go there’?
Will people be walking out of the theatre sayinig…
“Man… those poor guys. That workplace was FUCKED UP”.
Or will people be walking out of the theatre with the same look on their faces that the family members had when they walked out of that original “Special Accident ( cough, cough ) Investigation Report” meeting… with not a single CLUE as to WHY 19 supposedly professional firefighters burned to death on the floor of a blind box canyon full of explosive fuel, with no lookout?
No one is expecting these ‘movie people’ to INVESTIGATE anything… but they still have to make CHOICES just to get this puppy in the can.
CHOICES like… where do THEY think Marsh actually was… and did Marsh actually ORDER Steed to bring the men down following an argument where Steed himself said flat-out he considered it a ‘dangerous move’ and did not WANT to attempt it?
We shall see.
**
** NOT SO CONTROLLED BURN
Movie actor Geoff Stults, who is one of the ‘fake Hotshots’ in this Granite Mountain ‘movie’ thing, has posted a new video on his own PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ page showing himself and the other ‘fake’ Hotshots actually near some REAL fire this time.
Geoff Stults calls it a (quote) “not so controlled burn”.
It actually looks like the REAL firefighters on the movie set DID have this ‘under control’… but maybe it just didn’t look that way to actor Geoff Stults.
Here is the VIDEO…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHXBiMYBTUX/?taken-by=geoffmstults
Something interesting to notice in this video is that as the camera pans around… we appear to see al;most TWO full ‘Hotshot’ crews.
The crew BEHIND the camera appears to be the ‘fake’ Granite Mountain Hotshots… but when actor Geoff Stults pans around to what is in FRONT of him… we seem to see ANOTHER full set of Hotshots ‘leading’ them.
Maybe this is the ‘Sante Fe Hotshtos’, who have also been rumored to have been HIRED to assist in the making of this Granite Mountain ‘movie’ thing.
**
** ALAN SINCLAIR IS ALSO A PAID MOVIE CONSULTANT?
It is already known that former GM Hotshot Pat McCarty is being ‘paid’ to be a primary consultant for this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing and is somehow appearing in the film itself… and that former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch is already listed as being a PAID ACTOR for the film ( playing his deceased
friend Garret Zuppiger )…
…but it now appears that Eric Marsh’s old ( close ) friend Alan Sinclair ( and the Incident Commander for the recent Yarnell ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ ) is ALSO involved in the ‘production’ in some official capacity.
Here is a PHOTO that actor Josh Brolin ( who is playing deceased GM Hotshot Eric Marsh ) posted to his PUBLIC Instagram page.
It was taken ‘on the set’ with Brolin in full Hotshot costume with former GM Hotshot Pat McCarty on Brolin’s ‘right’… and now Alan Sinclair on his ‘left’…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHW_dWnDHcq/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
Here is the TEXT that Brolin himself posted along with the photo…
——————————————————————
joshbrolin
Me, Firefighter Pat McCarty, and Incident Commander Alan Sinclair on a hero rock watching a controlled fire just before a big rain rolled in.
New Mexico. @wildland_firefighters @wildlandfirefighting @us_hotshots #standuppeople #goodpeople
——————————————————————
Yes… this is the SAME ‘Alan Sinclair’ who just recently published his own ‘research’ into the Yarnell Hill Fire along with former firefighter Holly Neill. ( See below in this same chapter ).
These are the TWO people that book author John Maclean calls his “research team”.
It is also RUMORED that ‘Alan Sinclair’ himself *might* be the person that Amanda Marsh is now in a ( her words ) “relationship” with.
According to Amanda Marsh’s own ‘description’ of this ‘person’… Alan Sinclair fits her ‘description’ and Amanda Marsh was known to have been ‘visiting’ the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ incident recently where Alan Sinclair was the ‘IC’.
Who Amanda Marsh is or isn’t in a ‘relationship’ with is, of course, her business, but if it really is “one of author John Maclean’s researchers’ and someone who is KNOWN to have already publicly been releasing his own ‘evidence’ regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire… and who CONTINUES to be one of author John Maclean’s ‘researchers’… that puts a slightly different ‘perspective’ on things.
In Amanda Marsh’s own words…
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: Holding on to what was theirs: A Granite Mountain Hotshot widow’s story
Published: 4:02 a.m. MST June 26, 2016 – By: Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-best-reads/2016/06/26/granite-mountain-hotshot-widows-story/85890188/
From this recent article…
——————————————————-
Amanda Marsh is ‘the widow’, but she is not alone.
She has found love again, to another first responder. They met last year.
She guards the details of their relationship but said he’s someone who was
also “very close” to the fire.
They share their grief.
“He gives me all kinds of room to be who I need to be, and to grieve,” she says.
“I’m still very married to Eric, but I AM in a relationship with another man.”
——————————————————-
WTKTT,
What do you mean by this statement? What “previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire” are you specifically referring to?
“It actually means the people doing this movie thing have, apparently, researched it SO well that they have found a previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire.”
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 16, 2016 at 6:25 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> What do you mean by this statement? What “previously unknown
>> group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell
>> Hill Fire” are you specifically referring to?
That was total sarcasm. Sorry you missed it.
And I already responded to this below where you asked the same exact question…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342079‘
BTW: I typed that ‘sarcasm’ when I thought the reference to “Blue RIVER Hotshots” was just some massive TYPO fuck-up on the part of the ‘movie’ people.
Turns out it is neither a TYPO nor a ‘fuck-up’.
They ( the movie people ) really ARE either DECIDING and/or have been FORCED to change the name of the “Blue RIVER Hotshots” to the “Blue RIVER Hotshots”.
And since they have already announced that Latino actor Rene Herrera is playing the leader of the “Blue RIVER Hotshots”… does that mean they are also DECIDING and/or are being FORCED to change his ‘character’ name from “Brian Frisby” to ( perhaps ) something like “Bernie Farsby”?
Dang… another TYPO on MY part.
Meant to say ( above )…
They ( the movie people ) really ARE either DECIDING and/or have been FORCED to change the name of the “Blue RIDGE Hotshots” to the “Blue RIVER Hotshots”.
WTKTT,
You posted: “It is also RUMORED that ‘Alan Sinclair’ himself *might* be the person that Amanda Marsh is now in a ( her words ) “relationship” with.”
That’s exactly what it is, a RUMOR.
Sinclair and both Eric and Amanda Marsh have/had been friends since Eric worked on the Globe Ranger District, long before the June 2013 YH Fire.
And he is likely NOT a paid movie consultant since that may very well be a conflict of interest with his real job.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
July 16, 2016 at 6:29 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Sinclair and both Eric and Amanda Marsh have/had been
>> friends since Eric worked on the Globe Ranger District, long
>> before the June 2013 YH Fire.
It’s also true that Amanda Marsh told the reporter that the ‘new man’ that she is “in a relationship with” is someone she only met ‘last year’.
Given the long friendship between Alan Sinclair and Eric Marsh… it seems likely that Amanda would certainly have ‘met’ Alan Sinclair sooner than just 1 year ago… but it also remains a fact that Alan Sinclair FITS the general description.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> And he is likely NOT a paid movie consultant since that may very
>> well be a conflict of interest with his real job.
So… how is Prescott Fire Department employee Pat McCarty pulling it off?
If the people you work for give you PERMISSION to accept an ‘outside contract’… then it’s not a ‘conflict of interest’ at all.
The “conflict of interest” with regards to Alan Sinclair that would ‘bother’ me is if he is accepting money for working on a movie which the producers themselves have ALREADY ‘announced’ really just has the sole purpose of GLORIFYING the “Granite Mountain Hotshots”… but then Alan Sinclair remains listed as one of author John Maclean’s PRIMARY RESEARCH ASSISTANTS for that ‘commercial venture’ and while THAT ‘for profit’ book limps its way to the marketplace.
Not sure how many movie sets you have been on… but they don’t usually let just ‘sightseers’ hang around on the actual set… much less around the lead actors while they are in full costume and makeup and ‘at work’.
If you are THERE ( as the photo shows Sinclair was )… you usually have an ‘official’ REASON to be there.
Even if Sinclair is doing something for the movie as an ‘unpaid consultant’… I think that makes his ‘other’ role as one of John Maclean’s primary research assistants more than a little ‘suspect’.
Maybe John Maclean himself didn’t fall off the turnip truck yesterday… and he is smart enough to ‘sort out’ the agendas of his own ‘research assistants’.
I certainly hope so.
WTKTT,
You posted: “but it also remains a fact that Alan Sinclair FITS the general description.”
Amanda Marsh’s interview said “She has found love again, to another first responder. They met last year.”
Sinclair does NOT FIT “the general description” because he is NOT “another first responder” and they did NOT just meet “last year.”
She has to have another beau that is a “first responder” and they “met last year.”
See my other comment above.
Yes.. given the LONG ‘friendship’ between Alan Sinclair and Eric Marsh… it DOES seem highly likely that Sinclair would have met Amanda earlier than just 1 year ago.
But as for ‘first responder’… I think a lot of these WFF people DO consider themselves ‘first responders’… and the media is now well accustomed to referring to them that way ( even if they are not ACTUALLY, officially part of any kind of ‘Initial Attack’ crew ).
But with or without any potential ‘romantic’ connection back to Amanda Marsh… I think Alan Sinclair’s involvement with the ‘movie’ thing still might represent a direct ‘conflict of interest’ with his OTHER self-appointed role as one of author John Maclean’s PRIMARY RESEARCHERS.
I just hope author John Maclean is doing the correct amount of ‘buyer beware’ for any/all ‘research information’ he is getting from BOTH Alan Sinclair AND Holly Neill.
A local here can confirm she is not dating Sinclair and he knew Eric and has been there for his best friend and its dumb to read that wwtktt..like a national enquirer tidbit because there is more public information that also proves sinair has a lovely wife and so I disagree of talk about marsh and Sinclair… RTS is spot on here
I do think because Alan was a “friend” to Eric for a very long time long before GMHS and long before either men had married their sweethearts that he is the proper person to represent Eric Marsh for any book or movies and I do not feel it is a conflict or interest- how? Because he is an incident commander?
also did not mean you were giving out tidbit comparable to national enquirer just seem so far fecthed like something you read in those kind of places…sorry wwtktt
Joy… see my other comment below.
Based on what you have said… count me as someone who now no longer believes any ‘rumors’ that Alan Sinclair is the person who Amanda Marsh is having a ‘relationship’ with ( other than friendship ).
But Alan Sinclair IS, still, the person who just recently revealed himself as that ‘other’ ‘primary researcher’ working for book author John Maclean ( along with this Holly Neill person ).
And now there he is ( in Josh Brolin’s own photo ) also showing up ‘on the movie set’.
yeah but again Alan was a friend a long time to Eric so to me I would want my good friend to represent me in all areas about me…you know.
Thank you, Joy. Based on that… then I am no longer someone who believes the rumor that the person Amanda Marsh *might* now be having a ‘relationship’ with is Alan Sinclair.
But regardless… Alan Sinclair IS also the person who recently revealed himself as that ‘other’ PRIMARY research assistant working WITH Holly Neill…. and that both of them have been working FOR book author John Maclean.
His ‘relationship’ to the ‘movie’ is not fully known… but that really is HIM sitting on that rock ‘on the movie set’ with former GM Hotshot-turned-actor-and-movie consultant Pat McCarty… and lead actor ( playing Eric Marsh ) Josh Brolin.
According to social media Amanda Marsh is in a relationship with Jason Lohman.
**
** THE ‘BLUE RIVER HOTSHOTS’ — UPDATE
As it turns out… that doesn’t appear to be a TYPO at all on the IMDB page.
Darin Eppich is a ‘producer’ involved with this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing and he has been ‘on the set’ there in New Mexico and posting photos to his own PUBLIC social media ( Instagram ) site.
Look closely at the following photo he posted ‘from the set’…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHx_XUIju__/?taken-by=darineppich&hl=en
Sitting on the ‘bumper’ of the US Forestry-colored vehicle, next to the ‘camera slate’ with the ‘Granite Mountain’ film logos are two BLUE HELMETS.
The BLUE HELMETS actually say “The Blue RIVER Hotshots”… and the logo is some kind of made-up Salmon jumping out of a ‘River’.
So it appears that the listing of Latino actor ‘Rene Herrera’ as being cast to play the “Captain of the Blue River Hotshots” on the IMDB page isn’t some kind of massive TYPO at all.
What appears to be actually going on here is that either the Movie people DECIDED not to actually use the name “Blue Ridge Hotshots”… or they could not obtain PERMISSION from the US Forestry Service and/or the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” organization to use their name in the film.
So they just CHANGED it from “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to “Blue River Hotshots” and made up their own fake logo for this fake Type 1 IHC crew.
Also… producer Darrin Eppich has now also ‘put to rest’ another rumor that the movie people might actually try to film at the actual ‘Granite Mountain Station 7’ in Prescott.
Eppich has posted ANOTHER photo of what appears to be the ‘fake’ Granite Mountain Station 7 there in New Mexico… with the actual 2 Granite Mountain Crew Carriers parked at it…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BH5LpLSjXpH/?taken-by=darineppich&hl=en
There are still NO reports of anyone even trying to obtain ‘filming permits’ anywhere in the Prescott area… so it really does look like the ‘movie people’ have decided to give Arizona ( and Prescott and Yarnell ) a complete and total ‘miss’ with regards to this ‘movie’ thing.
Another interesting PUBLIC Instagram post from the set of this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing from producer Darin Eppich.
This one is actually a VIDEO which shows the ‘fake smoke’ they are using extensively.
It’s a ‘fogging machine’ on steroids.
It does NOT look REAL at all… but movie goers/payers will probably buy it… and isn’t that all that really matters?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHvtDlEjdUW/?taken-by=darineppich&hl=en
Also… 48 hours ago… Actor Miles Teller was allowed to ‘leave’ the New Mexico film set and go off and appear as a ‘presenter’ at this year’s EPSY awards.
Miles Teller is now known to be the one playing Brendan McDonough… and the producers have already said that whatever this film is ‘about’… the ‘story’ is somehow being told via the relationship between Eric Marsh and Brendan McDonough.
Whatever.
It is also known that Miles Teller is trying to LOOK like Brendan McDonough and is going with the same sort of ‘blond-hair buzz cut’.
But at the EPSY awards… the media freaked out because it’s the first time they’ve seen Miles Teller with his ‘blond hair’… and they were all accusing him of trying to imitate Eminem, or look like him.
Anyway… here is probably the only glimpse prior to the movie coming out of what Miles Teller’s imitation of Brendan McDonough actually LOOKS like…
http://www.esquire.com/style/news/a46709/miles-teller-hair/
**
** BARNBURNER
Looks like this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing is including the obligatory “Barn Burning + Frightened Horses” that one would expect in a ‘Fire’ movie.
Executive Producer Ellen Schwartz has posted TWO photos to her PUBLIC Instagram account taken on the ‘set’ of the ‘movie’.
One is a ‘barn’ engulfed in flames, and the other is a the standard ‘Frightened/Rearing’ horse.
Here is the ‘Barn Burning’…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHuaXTvgX1G/
And here is the ‘Frightened/Rearing horse’…
NOTE: There is no actual FLAME seen near the horse in this photo as it is ‘rearing up’ ( under what appears to be the control of a ‘trainer’? I certainly hope so )… but there is plenty of SMOKE…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHuiUXmgDDp/?taken-by=ellenhschwartz
I guess we can expect the following obligatory blurb as the credits roll… but perhaps with a ‘twist’ this time?…
“No animals were harmed during the making of this picture… and just as a precaution… they were all treated with EMDR ( Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing ) therapy afterwards just in case any of them were suffering from any PTSD. They all appear to be just fine.”
Now this….“No animals were harmed during the making of this picture… and just as a precaution… they were all treated with EMDR ( Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing ) therapy afterwards just in case any of them were suffering from any PTSD. They all appear to be just fine.”
is a HOOT!
Although I like it better when “the obligatory “Barn Burning + Frightened Horses” that one would expect in a ‘Fire’ movie” happens at night…it is always so much more DRAMATIC!
On the discussion of good men– no one is throwing stones in a glass house.
On that mountain at the very spot those men descended toward the Helms bombproof safety zone, Joy and I did argue as did Marsh and Steed as to the directions to take. I was adamant not to drop down into that basin, Joy was adamant to drop down. The difference there was Joy was not wanting to go up the mountain and that hike through the basin was a shorter and direct route back to Yarnell. Also we are both adult people and I am not her boss, nor is she mine. Marsh had power over Steed, but I had none over Joy and her decision. Yet by the time I topped the mountain enough sense came into me to return and demand she follow me out in a direction away from the fire. See Joy and I had hiked from the MVD in Prescott all the way to Wilhoit until her husband got off work and picked us up about about 2AM. Then we hiked Saturday toward the fire line until evening when she saw a black bear and decided we ought to turn back. Then Sunday we took that long route through the brush and heat of the day–so she was definitely tired. I was as well–but Joy is a city gal and despite her hiking in the Desert, she does not know danger when she should.
I doubt I would have been charged with negligence for not going back, but if I had not I am certain she would not have made it out her way in time. She, however did not know the danger of going toward a reversible fire that she believed would only continue toward Peeples Valley and that despite my telling her that the thunder storms were a bad omen and there would be no escape if it changed and we were caught in that basin. Despite her stubbornness, I could not imagine living with the guilt of not going back to once again trying to drag her out. She weighs in at over 200 and me at 140–so not an easy chore. Fortunately she was there with sore and swollen feet and her boots off, still under that small pinon tree. She had been there 40 minutes when I got back and likely would have been there until the GMHS headed back toward her on the two track.
Does that make me a hero? Hell no. In fact I had some anger to the fact that I had to go back and risk the chance that the fire would change and I had lost that time putting myself more at risk then back track up the mountain again in the 100 degree plus day.
The sad thing here is that Marsh and Steed knew they were risking their men and those men were under their command. Joy was not under my command, yet I could have made the mistake of leaving her to her own peril. When I decease, which doctors say should be by this coming November, I certainly want to meet Marsh and Steed on the other side to find out why they risked their mens lives for structure protection.
The tragedy of the Yarnell Hill Fire movie is that the real story will not be told. When we passed a prison crew in orange jump suits picking up trash along the highway, there were two of the men ahead of the main group. I told Joy there is Marsh and Steed. That is were they would be for their negligence in protecting the lives of the 17 young men under their command that they caused the deaths of. There are a few others that are above Marsh and Steed that would be joining the crew as well. Instead we see Marsh’s widow and others touting them as heroes and attempting to make them out as wonderful examples of the wild land fire fighting profession and its management. Nothing could be so far from the truth.
Yesterday Joy and I went to see if we would take down a tower for the lumber. In the photos it looked good, but once there you could see that it was rotted badly–two platforms of the 40 foot high structure were rotted so badly that the 2×6 planks had partially falled out so much that about half the platforms were missing. You could only walk on the outer rim of edge wise 4×8 lumber that rimmed the platform on top. The top platform was about 10’x10′ and the lower platform about 20×20 ft. with a rotted stairway up to it. Of the four supporting logs, one had rotted so that it had to be reinforced with steel straps and two by sixes and meantime another had rotted almost in two. A good wind would have blown it over into his home or one of the structures on either side.
The thing was it certainly was not worth the rotted lumber for the job of removing it. Joy learned that five people had refused to remove it and a professional crew saw it as too dangerous and too near the $350,000 home, a dog kennel and a sheds on both sided of this thing that would sustain damage if it fell wrong. But we noticed he had two young kids and he is a hero in his Army Sergeant profession of training German Shepherds for the military. Those kids were bound to get onto to that structure and fall through either platform or off that rickety ladder that lead to the top. He said lightening had struck the tower before, why the reinforced leg on one side, but I noticed another supporting timber had pretty well rotted as well.
One thing about much of Arizona pine logs is that they don’t get enough moisture during growth and even the new lumber of this area is brittle. It does not stand weather long either and is prone to rot quickly–you are better off with Oregon or northern pine if you need strength and longevity.
So seeing what this man does and that he himself would not be a good candidate to do this job. I thought what the hell, I have the experience and can drop that tower–and if I were ten years younger in twice the time–this is what Joy calls a God thing to do–and maybe it is. Perhaps Joy will post pictures of the tower and this old guy up near the top with chain saw hanging off with one hand and the other topping the tower so I can fall it in pieces so that his home and sheds and kennel were not damaged. I have never liked heights, but never thought much of dropping down mine shafts–this reminded me of an old mine hoist structure.
The point is the pro was right in not risking his men or those structures to do that job. He would have had to do it himself to avoid risking others, something he apparently did not want to do. So up there, I felt like Gary must have felt acting like Evil Kanevil. But I definitely had good reason to fall that tower seeing those little kids involved and knowing this guy with a cookie cutter Poulan chain saw had no clue.
That man came out and watched and his two young ones with him and I was assured they kept well back as did I have to make sure Joy did as well. The risk was my own, had I allowed Joy to get hurt or that man or those kids then I should have deserved an orange jump suit as well. It is only common sense to take care of the safety of persons involved in a dangerous situation — to not do so then your negligence that injures or kills others is criminal even if your intentions were honorable.
Will this movie teach that lesson and make managers of wild land fire fighters careful of their subordinate’s lives?
The Tower and the man and wonderful children– He left during the job, But when he returned, he must have wondered and been relieved at seeing that the rotted tower was gone–it is still loaded on my old 73 Chevy and trailer behind–not very good firewood but good starter wood–but Joy says about four pieces of good barnwood and she is going to have me cut four strips out of one to send to her mom back east. He mom makes unique picture frames and Joy has some family photos she wants framed that way.
plus she wants to make a frame for this family as a memento since that tower was there for many decades. Joy said she will email the InvestigativeMedia crew the photos.
Charlie-
it was also an enlightenment day too for Kyle-
not because of us following through to break the tower down but because
I said something to him private and he went in his home called his mother and said his mother has too had the same message I saw—and to confirm the private message- the horse I spoke to Kyle about; when he was young his father use to ride horses so it meant something to his family when I mentioned the horse and no way I could know that…I said I did not mention it to be creepy or freaky but this man Donald just wanted the message to be shown and I almost kept quiet. I explained to Kyle that this death was sudden and fast and he was too young and the rest was private to Kyle…he looked at me like no one could know how his dad died but he died of a sudden stroke and that was it- that is how life can change oh so quick like the blinking of an eye just like 19 men dying and the lives around them forever changed—so part of my mother’s side genetics surfaced for me today as the doc said he has to do a hida on me in addition to the other tests to rule out or rule in the gall bladder- My insurance did not cover this special prescription he gave me and I have to take it before the test and $60 but my mom said that is nothing…some of her meds are into the hundreds and I told her I am not a pharmaceutical gal so ain’t there another way—of course “ain’t” bothers some like I am uneducated but it stuck to me from my Mississippi visiting days- that and “reckon”…the photos of that tower were sent to the IM crew- check your inboxes. I need to figure my schedule out so no IM reading for me today…too many doctors- one here and another there just seems like a bullshit to me but I am “listening” and it is not too easy for me to pay for this stuff to take before tests—I can see Metamucil or electrolytes…good night…I told them today from MY point of view I can’t be too bad if it is an appt here and there setup vs just getting it handled…has anyone had to deal with this route due to type of insurance? Now I do wish the good old days were back when insurance was different…OBAMADONTCARE is not for me…I want to go in and get it done when I finally surrender to that area so it is hard to grasp—go here and there and follow ups and etc…
Charlie,
You posted: “The tragedy of the Yarnell Hill Fire movie is that the real story will not be told. …. Instead [of Marsh and Steed being held accountable for negligence in the deaths of 17 men’ we see Marsh’s widow and others touting them as heroes and attempting to make them out as wonderful examples of the wild land fire fighting profession and its management. Nothing could be so far from the truth.”
Thanks for saying what needs to be said.
Even recently… on the THIRD anniversary…. some major media outlets were actually saying things like “…and the fire overtook them where they were WORKING”… or… “…the Hotshots had been WORKING on the western part of the fire when the wind-driven fire surrounded them and cut off their escape routes”.
A total and complete inability to accept the FACT that the only reason they were in a place where they would have ‘no escape’ and be ‘burned to death’ is because they DECIDED ( themselves ) to BE there.
They were not WORKING that ‘area’ where they burned to death.
They were simply MOVING from where they were SAFE… to where they were NOT SAFE…. and they paid the ultimate price for that risky/bad decision.
But just like Mike Dudley and the SAIT didn’t want to ‘go there’ with regards to any testimony about PRIOR bad decision making on the part of this organization and its leadership… the MEDIA itself still doesn’t want to ‘go there’ with regards to any possible scenario other than… “The big bad fire just came and got them”.
It’s really quite astounding what is ( and always has been ) going on with this ‘story’… and people’s inability to even be interested in ‘the truth’.
It is ( and always has been ) telling us a LOT about OURSELVES… and how we somehow CLING to ‘hero worship’ and the lengths some people in the ‘hero business’ will go to just to keep ‘butts in the seats’.
True statements here from WTKTT. WTKTT is a hero of mine along with Gary, Bob, RTS and others here-all honorable people willing to hold to the truth in this horrible situation that occurred because of failure to respect the laws of nature and rules of safety. Had persons of experience been honest from the beginning rather than trying to protect reputations this web site would have never been necessary. The nature of lies is their down the line and sadly it involves more wild land fire fighter lives. All the attempts to paint this thing as an accident only adds to the danger of wild land fire fighting. Lives are worth the truth here.
**
** THE ‘BLUE RIVER’ HOTSHOTS…
**
** …AND MORE ‘STUPID HOTSHOT PET TRICKS’…
Well… this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing keeps ‘announcing’ more and more ‘actors’ signing onto the thing… and the OFFICIAL IMDB page is now saying they have cast a semi-famous Latino actor named ‘Rene Herrera’ to play the Superintendent of the “Blue River Hotshots” ( no typo there )…
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast
I’m actually suddenly quite encouraged by this OFFICIAL ‘announcement’.
It actually means the people doing this movie thing have, apparently, researched it SO well that they have found a previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Maybe we all really WILL learning something about the Yarnell Hill Fire by seeing this movie after all.
And following the already-released video of actor Geoff Stultz and other actors playing ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’ puking their socks off after accepting the self-waterboarding 4-4-40 ‘challenge’… I guess it was inevitable that we now have more ‘video’ from the movie set of more classic ‘stupid Hotshot Pet Tricks’.
Here is former Granite Mountain Hotshot turned ACTOR ( playing his deceased old-friend Garret Zuppiger ) opening beer bottles on the movie set with his chainsaw…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGxy9Tvjoh4/?taken-by=dylzenvision
Correction for above.
Latino actor ‘Rene Herrera’ is NOT being officially listed as playing the ‘Superintendent’ of the ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
He is being officially ‘announced’ as playing just the ‘Captain’ of the ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
And as for the ‘Opening bottles with a chainsaw’ trick…
The WORLD RECORD is actually 23 bottles opened in 60 seconds.
Guinness World Records
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/89681-most-beer-bottles-opened-by-chainsaw-in-one-minute
——————————————————————————–
The most beer bottles opened by chainsaw in one minute is 23 and was achieved by Andrew Younghusband (Canada) on the set of “Tougher Than It Looks”, in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, on 25 April 2016.
Andrew broke the record on his FIRST attempt.
—————————————————————————
Yes… his LAST NAME really is “Younghusband” ( all one word ).
Can’t make this stuff up.
And here is a VIDEO of the previous world record holder from 2014.
The reason he didn’t reach 23 is because he chipped the glass on some of the bottles as he was opening them with his chainsaw… so in official ‘world record’ circles… that ‘disqualifies’ those bottles.
SIDENOTE: Yes… this really is dangerous… and if you don’t use eye protection when doing it ( Brandon Bunch himself was NOT )… then you are pretty much an idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN_-haAMPT4
** FIVE BOTTLES AT ONCE!
Now HERE is something else that SHOULD ( also ) be in the “Guinness Book of World Records”.
Some dude posting a public YouTube video of him opening FIVE BOTTLES AT ONCE with his Chainsaw.
That’s right… FIVE BOTTLES AT THE SAME MOMENT!
Apparently, the only reason he didn’t go for a full SIX-PACK was because the dinky bar on the chainsaw he was using just wasn’t LONG enough…
You really should watch this.
Makes Brandon Bunch look like a rank amateur with HIS one-at-a-time ‘movie set’ trick…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOda_e6EtHs
Correction for above.
Latino actor ‘Rene Herrera’ is NOT being officially listed as playing the ‘Superintendent’ of the ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
He is being officially ‘announced’ as playing just the ‘Captain’ of the ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
And as for the ‘Opening bottles with a chainsaw’ trick…
The WORLD RECORD is actually 23 bottles opened in 60 seconds.
Guinness World Records
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/89681-most-beer-bottles-opened-by-chainsaw-in-one-minute
——————————————————————————–
The most beer bottles opened by chainsaw in one minute is 23 and was achieved by Andrew Younghusband (Canada) on the set of “Tougher Than It Looks”, in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, on 25 April 2016.
Andrew broke the record on his FIRST attempt.
—————————————————————————
Yes… his LAST NAME really is “Younghusband” ( all one word ).
Can’t make this stuff up.
And here is a VIDEO of the previous world record holder from 2014.
The reason he didn’t reach 23 is because he chipped the glass on some of the bottles as he was opening them with his chainsaw… so in official ‘world record’ circles… that ‘disqualifies’ those bottles.
SIDENOTE: Yes… this really is dangerous… and if you don’t use eye protection when doing it ( Brandon Bunch himself was NOT )… then you are pretty much an idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN_-haAMPT4
** FIVE BOTTLES AT ONCE!
Now HERE is something else that SHOULD ( also ) be in the “Guinness Book of World Records”.
Some dude posting a public YouTube video of him opening FIVE BOTTLES AT ONCE with his Chainsaw.
That’s right… FIVE BOTTLES AT THE SAME MOMENT!
Apparently, the only reason he didn’t go for a full SIX-PACK was because the dinky bar on the chainsaw he was using just wasn’t LONG enough…
You really should watch this.
Makes Brandon Bunch look like a rank amateur with HIS one-at-a-time ‘movie set’ trick…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOda_e6EtHs
Followup to the post above…
Here is former Granite Mountain Hotshot turned ACTOR ( playing his deceased old-friend Garret Zuppiger ) opening beer bottles on the movie set with his chainsaw…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGxy9Tvjoh4/?taken-by=dylzenvision
Yes… that really is one of the ACTUAL ( original ) Granite Mountain Crew Carriers seen there in the background while former GM Hotshot turned ACTOR Brandon Bunch is opening the beer bottle with his chainsaw there on the ‘set’ of this movie thing.
The movie people have rented the ACTUAL ( original ) Granite Mountain vehicles from the City of Prescott for $45 a day per vehicle.
WTKTT,
What do you mean by this statement? What “previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire” are you specifically referring to?
“It actually means the people doing this movie thing have, apparently, researched it SO well that they have found a previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire.”
That was total sarcasm. Sorry you missed it.
I was just facetiously ‘complimenting’ the movie people on apparently researching the Yarnell Fire so well that they somehow ‘found’ another group of Hotshots called the “Blue River Hotshots”… in ADDITION to the group we KNOW was there… “the Blue RIDGE Hotshots”.
At the time I typed that ‘sarcasm’… I thought we were looking at just some massive TYPO fuck-up on the part of these ‘movie people’.
As it turns out… it is neither a ‘type’ nor a ‘fuck-up’.
They really ARE changing the name of the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to the “Blue River Hotshots” just for this ‘movie’ thing… and they have even ‘invented’ a FAKE LOGO for their “Blue River Hotshots” that uses pretty much the same COLORS as the Granite Mountain Logo… but shows some ‘Salmon’ jumping out of some cartoonish ‘river’.
That means they either DECIDED to NOT mention the REAL organization known as the “Blue Ridge Hotshots”… *OR*…. the were FORCED to change the name because the US Forestry service and/or the Blue Ridge Hotshots organization REFUSED PERMISSION for that ‘brand name’ to be used in their little ‘movie’.
See the following ‘new’ post up above about this… with a link to a PHOTO of the actual ‘Blue Helmets’ they are actually using for this ‘made up’ group of Hotshots they are calling the “Blue River Hotshots’…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342038
Makes you wonder…
If they ( the movie people ) are either DECIDING or being FORCED to change the name of an organization directly involved in a National Historic Tragedy from “The Blue RIDGE Hotshots” to “The Blue RIVER Hotshots”… then as they film the scene where Latino actor Rene Herrera rescues actor Miles Teller ( Brendan McDonough ) from the lookout mound… are they going to change actor Rene Herrera’s character name from “Brian Frisby” to “Bernie Farsby”?
Followup….
It’s also a damn shame that the people doing this ‘movie’ that will ( perhaps in record time ) just up there in that cardboard bin of $2 dollar DVDs near the Wal-Mart cash registers either felt the need and/or were FORCED to ‘change the name’ of the OTHER group of Type 1 Hotshots who were THERE in Yarnell that historic day.
Brian Frisby’s ACCIDENTAL ‘saving’ of Brendan McDonough was one of the ONLY ‘good’ things that happened that day… and now the movie-going public will forever not even know his name or the ACTUAL name of the Type 1 IHC organization that he ran.
If the ‘movie’ people really WANTED to use ‘real names’ here ( as they are doing with everyone and everything associated with the Granite Mountain organization )… but were FORCED to ‘change all the names’ by the US Forestry Service… then you have to wonder if Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ever had anything to say about it.
Could it be that Frisby and Brown were just told to continue to “Shut The Fuck Up” and just “go along” with US Forestry decisions… as has been the case all along with them ( and the rest of the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ )?
Trueheart Brown left the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ organization some time ago… but he is still a USFS employee working on another US Forest facility in Arizona.
I just wonder how Brian Frisby is going to ( ultimately ) feel about everyone who sees the movie just believing that someone with some name like “Bernie Farsby” with the “Blue RIVER Hotshots” is the one who actually saved Brendan McDonough’s life that day?
Or maybe it’s the other way around.
Maybe Frisby and Brown ( and ALL the other Blue Ridge Hotshots ) are still so ‘afraid’ of being generally known as having anything to do with this National Historic Tragedy that THEY are the ones who refused to allow their ‘names’ to be used in the film?
Dunno. All I know is… there is a ‘story’ there about this ‘choice’ alone that needs to come out sooner or later.
Whoops. TYPO up above.
I MEANT to say…
It’s also a damn shame that the people doing this ‘movie’ that will ( perhaps in record time ) just END UP there in that cardboard bin of $2 dollar DVDs near the Wal-Mart cash registers either felt the need and/or were FORCED to ‘change the name’ of the OTHER group of Type 1 Hotshots who were THERE in Yarnell that historic day.
What I don’t understand is why Amanda, Willis, Dudley, and a bunch of their cronies are not the real actors. They have done such a good job in their acting and changing the truth that I know I am certain they could challenge the best among the actors mentioned.
I think I would exclude Donut–too much of a whiner to be an actor–but only my opinion.
Bringing this to the top for Joy
According to what the Doctors told my Nephew and his Wife they cant start any CF treatment until a child is 12. Don’t know why.
The treatment is also $25,000 a week for 6 months. Medicaid won’t cover it so its one of those only the rich cures. The cancer changed the whole game the Dr. said. She is at the children’s Hospital in San Francisco which is a top rated place. This new Doctor is pulling some strings to get to some new treatments once she is past the Cancer treatment Chemo and all another 3 months.
She has a long ways to go. A 7 year old sits there in bed and tells her mom and dad and Grandma that she knows she is safe because she has Guarding Angels that are with her all the time and talk to her. Maybe so?????????????????????
.
Just woke up. I have to get up at 2:15 but quickly answer you. Actually what she sees is real… I know certain loved ones have not liked some areas I have seen but Grant confirmed what I too have witnessed is real even Sinclair…there is much realness to what she sees…it’s because our purity can see beyond…if I saw her I would share to her about a little girl and her family I got to know before she was shown the world and became a famous child prodigy..have her look up Akiane and highly recommend her book to her and not only was her family athiest non believers when Akiane saw things like your niece can and Me too and Akiane painted what she saw…the other day I spent time with RTS and he did not even catch things only he knows and not the world but yes I too have these areas foreign to me but real…have her ask Him if he has any gifts she can share about her angels.. May it be by voice or art or poetry but take a shot and if nothing do not be discouraged because in its moment it happens and every moment the place poison in her…move move move even if bed bound…and more water…and hold steady to the Word she is hearing from her angels…its real…and when people look at ya in oh how cute…its actually not always so cute and unicorn life-like…I was told long ago let my body just rest but walk always but I put on hold my adrenaline junkie ways and weight poured on me and it was just recently I was told in eighteen months I will be thin again and do not take the meds and listen to what they plan to do for surgery and we will decide from that point if I do or not…I think I’m ready with all the pressurized pain month after month but was told hold on…it will be fine…
Back to sleep but sounds great where she is at…good to hear..zzz
RTS-
on topic of sharing your Faith-
everyone has a right to be who they are but in a very undisciplined unstructured really cultured world; it would be nice for the healthy-minded to do less talking and judging and more quiet guidance and prayers for others having the disconnect to Him vs saying it to them—-now with that being said on Sunday January 4th 2015 I was up in Yarnell doing defensible space when my phone alerted me my perimeter cameras at home went off and I was like YCSO??? why YCSO? I call YCSO and they said they stopped by to serve me papers (Marsh case) so I was like if they are in no hurry can I finish up what I am doing than meet them at my home after 3pm…I then set up all my cameras to video this moment of being served and as I was doing that in crunch time I got a what you call WRONG NUMBER call- the old man said is so and so there & I told him wrong number but I STOPPED everything I was doing not because I wanted to do that but God guides me and I turned my pc on and looked up the name—I then went and called around to folks I know and said the almost 100 year old man was put into a nursing home after his wife died and then I called nursing home and the lady said that man has on paper NO VISITORS or INCOMING INFORMATION and I asked her if she would just slip that man’s name and I will call back in a few hours because I was awaiting my company (YCSO was the company) and a few hours later she said YES THE MAN LIT UP WHEN SHE MENTIONED HIS NAME…I called the old man back and told him update where his pal was and he was delighted- they were old friends and good pals/war buddies and he thought he was killed in war and he dreamnt he was alive and called last known number someone gave him and he asked my why I did all that for him and I told him it was the right thing to do and he said he was 97 y.o. and would never knew how to do all that- next day I got call from the woman of the husband that called me and thanked me alot for taking the time for her husband. It meant the world to them and if there was any money or gift they can offer and I said no, that was God not me. I explained to her at the moment he called I was tied up with deep uncertainty & anxiety that a woman felt so deep to consider me a threat in any fashion that I was being served for an injunction against harassment & best I ever been is emotional/irrational at little moment times not alot or daily and I thought it was human if broken and not healthy minded to have those moments from me my entire life when up against a wall with certain folks of YCSO breathing down my ass and Chief Ben Palm sharing to someone that one of his own firefighters and one old one text me “the chief is trying to get you arrested” and it went on for months so it grew old and I made out of frustration a comment BUT NEVER thought it would publicly mar my perfect record— and 8 days later the couple re-called me and thanked me again for that very very special tear jerking deeply emotional time because by the time they arrived he died in his friends arms that afternoon. I told her sometimes in the fast pace world of ME mentalities we do not take the time to listen to Him or we all opt to pick our times and actions but it was good to know I brought two military brothers back together—the other guy his wife had died and he went into a deep trance the staff said until this friend came and he lit up like nothing they ever saw and I even had the staff call and thank me for giving them that special moment to see because he had been there for years as a stubborn locked up man but God heals at the times needed…so always think WRONG NUMBER could change a person’s life like recently I was making a call for Bill G on air tankers and I dialed wrong number and the person ends up being a person who is very much into keeping it simple…it was a much needed time for them too but in it I gave that WRONG NUMBER at first Bill G and a whole thing came out of that wrong number too- small tiny world…I occasionally have strange times like that…but in all that RTS…people are gonna share…but you told Gary that these folks did not do preaching and again its not what we heard first hand—and that was all I wrote—you came back with the “cheese and cracker” stuff and the G & D stuff…where did that come from because I did not talk about that and yet you directed it to me…because people say that does not mean a thing to me…than back to human factors I have seen THE TOP religious men say stuff like that and I thought if they are capable than anyone is because it a human choice to the situation at hand and HOW one deals with stress…you ever see yourself handle stress and you pat your back but another time you react so unlike yourself…it is called being human in a LAW RESTRICTED WORLD might get you in court or jail due to the broken systems all around us even the churches…I never SPOKE UP in my case to the judge asking for change of venue to be disrespectful it was just I never saw HOW a comment and Willis hearsay could lead to a mark on my record but not one empathetic moment from judge for the documented mess I saw for months—I mean countless hours of YCSO and stuff…it was an unfair moment to my life but I am at peace with it and glad nowadays Gary removed it off his site but like I said what good can come from THE BIG LIE posted right under their photo- It just came off like whoah…now for me to say that and I saw what I seen in that journey- wouldn’t I be one to cheer that kind of stuff on—nah because we all face grief and hard moments and life is what it is…and for that life goes on…now RTS have a great day 🙂 I answered ya..
by the way that is the ninth time I hooked up old war buddies in my life time- three by wrong numbers—
Joy, thanks for sharing all that you posted above. Definitely ‘a God thing’ is what I call those, and several times with you too.
You posted: “you came back with the “cheese and cracker” stuff and the G & D stuff…where did that come from because I did not talk about that and yet you directed it to me…because people say that does not mean a thing to me.”
It was to make a point about free speech and the hypocrisy of those people that are ‘offended’ by people talking about God or using Jesus’ name or whatever.
Forgive me for being unclear when I posted that.
RTS— or Gary—
this man Roy Hall who was on the YHF
was he ever a sheriff in NM?
someone I know grew up with a Roy Hall who then went on to be a NM Sheriff- wondered if it was the same
I don’t think so, as far as I know, all of his adult life was spent with USFS and I think it was all on the Apache Sitgreaves National Forest out of Springerville AZ, but I might be wrong.
ok. than I have met him by Greer- thought so— he has a bunch of kids— he was a nice man if same guy…
seems weird for me..so if it is same guy than Roy – a good man and Willis a good man… I just do not get it…I think back to the start of this all and how Willis went out on a stadium and Hoorah people applauded and Donut went on a country singer’s stage and Hoorah people applauded and Roy has a decent article put out yet 19 men died—what is all the hoorah for????
I’d be having my head down in such depth of sorrow
I mean I did not even KNOW the men and I hang my head down shaking it trying to make sense of it all what I eye-witnessed 6-30-13…
And from folks in that area called me the gal who craved 15 minutes of fame and it is not even a thought because “fame” does not sit well with me and not anything I want for “my” life…but I do so bad seek answers that seems so many rather close the door to me and judge me versus get I am the one who was on the same mountain as the 20 men and I am alive…so I want to learn all I can on those last hours…who were these men…and the people that day…and I doubt the movie is going to provide purity so all I can do is seek foias and public information yet in it I so bad wish one person had a break down and just came to this site and finally spoke—I mean why hasn’t the dispatchers wrote me back—that was months ago??? How long does a foia request have to be acknowledged?
One day is my hope that I can learn the final hours…it’s very sad.
Joy,
I don’t believe anybody is saying that anybody in this situation is not a good man. They are men that made big mistakes and have so far been able and unwilling to admit it publicly.
I don’t agree with WTKTT that “depraved indifference” or a “depraved heart” was involved in Eric Marsh’s, Jesse Steed’s or anyone else’s decision on June 30, 3013, either. I certainly think that both of them were good men as well.
For any act in this situation to rise to the “depraved” level would have to mean;
Depraved, morally corrupt; wicked.
“a depraved indifference to human life”
Because;
“The State of Arizona doesn’t classify the crime of manslaughter as voluntary or involuntary. It’s either “manslaughter” or “negligent homicide.”
Manslaughter in Arizona
Arizona law defines manslaughter quite broadly, with many possible scenarios potentially giving rise to this charge. These include:
1) Intentionally assisting another in committing suicide. In most states, including Arizona, assisted suicide is illegal, even if performed by medically trained and licensed professionals. In Arizona, assisting in a suicide, regardless of medical training, is considered manslaughter.
2) Intentionally or knowingly killing a person after adequate provocation and in the heat of passion or during a sudden quarrel. This means that the crime was not premeditated, but is instead the result of “sudden quarrel or heat of passion.”
3) Intentionally killing another person while being forced to do so due to the threat or use of immediate unlawful deadly force, which “a reasonable person in his situation would have been unable to resist,”; or
4) Recklessly causing the death of another person.
5) Causing the death of an unborn child by injuring the mother. There are several important exceptions to this, and protects those who performed authorized abortions, those who provided medical services on the mother or child and the mother of the unborn child.
Negligent Homicide in Arizona
Negligent homicide is very similar to manslaughter; however, manslaughter is a “recklessness” standard which requires a gross deviation from a standard of conduct verses a “negligence” standard involving a gross deviation from a standard of care.”
And I think number 4, “Recklessly causing the death of another person.” clearly applies.
So I think the argument would be about whether the actions of Marsh and Steed were “manslaughter” or “negligent homicide” because their actions were reckless and it would take a jury to decide if those actions were simply “reckless” or a “grossly deviant” form of negligent.
If I speed through a school zone by going really, really fast just after school has let out for the day and take my eyes off the road to pick up one of my eight track cassettes that have fallen on the floorboards while trying to read a telephone number on my pager and kill children in a cross walk in Arizonaistan, I would be guilty of either manslaughter or negligent homicide.
If I keep going after I hit those children and they die because I did not stop to render aid or call for help, I think I would have demonstrated “depraved indifference” and therefore be guilty of a higher charge, which would be a degree of murder and not manslaughter or negligent homicide.
The first example doesn’t make me a “bad person” but the second example certainly does. It just makes me a very careless and reckless person who deserves to be punished according to the law in Arizonaistan..
As far as striding out onto a football field to be applauded as some kind of hero instead of sitting at home staring at the walls in a semi catatonic state which is where I would have been under similar circumstances doesn’t make you a bad man either…it just makes you a man who is divorced from reality and in denial about what just happened and your role in the disaster. .
Whoops “I don’t believe anybody is saying that anybody in this situation is not a good man. They are men that made big mistakes and have so far been UNable and unwilling to admit it publicly.
Gary said- If I speed through a school zone by going really, really fast just after school has let out for the day and take my eyes off the road to pick up one of my eight track cassettes that have fallen on the floorboards
MY REPLY- where were you in 1981? That’s exactly what happen to my step-brother in Brick, NJ but the man took off and my brother had severe brain damage and all he was doing was playing basketball after school—
sucks that there is alot of humans that are not forthcoming even my father who took a life yet it always remained hidden-
are they afraid of losing their lifestyles? what if being forthcoming is part of God’s plan too Gary—why was their death the only plan God had—what if He wanted everyone to share their accounts purely
I agree about your last part on the field and the disconnect just too bad though because there is just too many who keep quiet to a day I eye witnessed— stinks — but life goes on— and it does 🙂
Well…that was a hypothetical. I don’t really have a pager anymore, the company I used for years went out of business. But I do still have an eight track player in my Jeep because I don’t want to buy the “White Album” again.
And I am going to have to correct myself. I think that anybody who is, or has been involved in the cover up of the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy is a “BAD” person.
Oh…and In 1981 I was living in Point Pleasant NJ, so it couldn’t have been me.
I lived at 1123 Old Freehold Rd Toms River ( https://www.google.com/maps/@39.975108,-74.1987705,3a,75y,95.99h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m4!1s-vCTswOJlm31QccE0M34Tw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4b1!6m1!1e1 )
in 1981.- an old farm home smack in the center of cookie cutter new homes around the time and other farm houses- I would ride my bike all the time to Point Pleasant beach using Hooper Avenue—thru Brick to 88E to the shore to play with the horseshoe crabs and surf—you could not ever get my out of there— I use to sew bikinis for women and that is how my beginnings began for air brushing women before photo shoots— Point Pleasant beach…some fun times. I was 9 years old…I lived MORE life from age 7-12 than I have in my 40’s-
were you there for military? or for global security? I was one branches go getter gal to get their balls in a bucket—they liked me because I did not charge and they did not like getting their golf balls…my brothers charged when they did it near our home…that was their fun money…they would tell me to skat so I went where I could for free—
They said they would kill me if I talked about it.
Gary. No need to explain. I know exactly where and just so you know some of the folks died and one has dementia so soon you may be ok to talk about it.
Reply to Joy A. Collura says
July 13, 2016 at 4:57 pm
>> Joy said…
>>
>> I was one branches go getter gal
>> to get their balls in a bucket—they
>> liked me because I did not charge
>> and they did not like getting their
>> golf balls…my brothers charged
>> when they did it near our home…
>> that was their fun money…they
>> would tell me to skat so I went
>> where I could for free—
Joy… somehow it comes as no surprise whatsoever that you have always been pretty good at getting people’s ( non-gender specific ) “balls in a bucket”.
Reply to Gary Olson says post on
July 13, 2016 at 3:39 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I don’t agree with WTKTT that “depraved indifference”
>> or a “depraved heart” was involved in Eric Marsh’s,
>> Jesse Steed’s or anyone else’s decision on June
>> 30, 3013, either. I certainly think that both of them
>> were good men as well.
Well… in pure LEGAL terms… applying the additional charge of “depraved indifference” to an act that has already taken a human life doesn’t mean ANYONE ( the court included ) is passing any judgement on the ‘moral character’ of the accused.
It’s just a LEGAL term that can increase the severity of a ‘negligence’ charge by establishing that the accused SHOULD have KNOWN that their ‘actions’ might result in serious injury or death to others… but they went ahead and did it anyway.
Thus ( for that moment and that incident, anyway )… a “depraved indifference” to the consequences of pursuing their own agenda.
The example most often use in LEGAL circles is the “shooting at a car” scenario.
Even if you THOUGHT you were only going to hit the tires or the trunk of a vehicle by ‘shooting at it’… if you end up shooting at the moving car ( with occupants ) anyway… and you kill someone in the car… then you are guilty ( among other things ) of “depraved indifference”.
You KNEW there was a CHANCE that firing a gun at a car might kill an occupant… but you went ahead and ‘pursued your own agenda’ and you did it anyway.
The ‘depravity’ part, in these cases, means that you were just enough messed up in the head to pursue your OWN ‘agenda’… no matter what the COST to others in your charge… and you were ‘indifferent’ to those COSTS of pursuing your OWN ‘agenda’.
If Eric Marsh and/or Jesse Steed has survived… there SHOULD have been ‘criminal’ charges. No question.
And the resulting trial(s) would have been historic in nature, given that people tend to think that ALL ‘fireman’ are, somehow, automatically ‘heroes’ just because they pass a few tests and get put ON, or in CHARGE of, fire crews.
The ‘trial’ would have shown that it doesn’t matter WHO you THINK you are… you still aren’t allowed to KILL people you are in charge of because of your own agenda(s).
The lawyers for Marsh and/or Steed would have basically had to try and PROVE that neither one of them really thought there was anything even remotely dangerous about ordering the people in their charge to drop into a blind box canyon full of explosive, unburned fuel within a half mile of a raging, wind-driven wildfire at the height of the burn cycle.
In other words… it would have become the “Bad decisions with good outcomes” defense.
Or… ( for lack of a better term )… the “Ranger Danger” defense.
The lawyers would have had to make some kind of argument along the lines of “They made these kinds of risky decisions ALL THE TIME and nothing bad had ever happened… so my clients had no reason to believe the same sort of decisions on THAT day would lead to a bad outcome”.
*OR*… the lawyers might have had to argue to the jury that Marsh and/or Steed were simply so untrained in their own profession that they could not possibly have been expected to KNOW they were ordering the people in their charge into a ‘life threatening’ situation.
Brendan McDonough himself has already ‘floated’ that particular ‘defense’ in one of his own public radio interviews while he’s been out SELLING his ‘book’.
Here is a transcript of his KTAR radio interview…
http://ktar.com/player/?a=322233
———————————————————–
+2:35
Interviewer: Tell us a little bit about what Wildland Firefighters DO?
Brendan McDonough: So… ya know… the… the MAIN objective for US is… is the SAME as structure firefighters. Save lives. That’s a… that’s a BIG thing we have because right now we’re facing the urban interface. A huge… ya know… a huge dilemma. With what we’ve seen in Alberta, Canada this summer is… ya know… we lost sixteen hundred homes and… ya know… thank god we haven’t lost anybody yet.
+5:31
As the day unfolded… the storm had come in and the weather had started to change, and then, ya know, the winds had started to shift, which changed the direction of the fire… and so… we started to have homes threatened to the north… and then it was the northeast… and then the homes were burning IN town… ya know… and that’s when I left my lookout spot… right before then. And so… as… ya know… this fire just kinda SHIFTED… throughout the day… it really.. ya know… had a lotta SURPRISES for us. And… and… even in structural… there’s certain things that happen that we just can’t seem to comprehend… and that’s when… ya know… my… my brothers… for their reasons and for what they believed in… decided to leave their position… to try and get back to Yarnell.
+6:44
Some of the things we were basing our judgement off… ya know… wasn’t… wasn’t correct. And… for that… for that to be said… it’s… it’s humans. We… we… we make errors. So… we really struggle with… ya know… why… why did this happen. Something had to have gone wrong. Someone had to have made a mistake. And it’s not as much as someone made a mistake… it’s… it’s someone made a DECISION based on the information they had… and sometimes the information we have just isn’t enough… or it… or it’s not close enough to the timeframes and things like that. And we… we couldn’t expect it to burn as fast as it did… so… we… you know… we’re faced to be put in certain situations that we… in the beginning, you sign up for.
————————————————————
Brendan said…
“…it really.. ya know… had a lotta SUPRISES for us.”
“…we couldn’t expect it to burn as fast as it did.”
So if Steed and/or Marsh had lived… and their lawyers had to bust their asses to DEFEND their decision making that day… Brendan might have been called to the stand to say EXACTLY what he already said publicly while out SELLING his ‘book’.
That they all called themselves ‘Wildland Firefighters’… but that they couldn’t possibly have been EXPECTED to fully understand what can happen when thunderstorm outflow winds hit a Wildland fireline.
And the ‘jurors’ might have actually nodded their heads and BELIEVED that bullshit.
Unbelievable.
Well…I am not used to the term “depraved” used in a legal setting, since I am more familiar with the federal definition of manslaughter that uses the word “malice”
18 U.S. Code § 1112 – Manslaughter
(a) Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice. It is of two kinds:
Voluntary—Upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.
Involuntary—In the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to a felony, or in the commission in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection, of a lawful act which might produce death.
Malice – 1. A desire to harm others or to see others suffer; extreme ill will or spite.
2. Law
a. The intent to commit an unlawful act without justification or excuse.
b. An improper motive for an action, such as desire to cause injury to another.
And since it wasn’t in a sudden quarrel or heat of passion, I think if it were a federal charge (which it would never be unless it were a federal fire) the charge should be “involuntary manslaughter.”
But since it would be an Arizona state charge and if both you and I were on the jury, I would vote for “manslaughter” right off the bat, but you probably could convince me to change my vote for the more serious charge of “negligent homicide” because what Marsh and Steed did unbelievably stupid even though what Steed did was understandable to me, not excusable…understandable.
So…I think our disagreement over the use of the word “depraved” is a moot point since in this situation it would be an Arizona statute and even if it would have been a federal fire, they would then use the federal statute. You must live in a state that uses “depraved”, which will make it easier to figure out who you are.
And one of my goals of participating in this thread has been to make wildland firefighters aware that the world is changing.
Even as of TODAY, they can PROBABLY count on the following happening.
1. No investigating agency, either federal or state, especially state, will recommend any charges against them.
2. No prosecutor will bring any charges against them even if an investigating agency does recommend charges being filed.
3. No judge is going to deny a directed verdict to dismiss the charges even if a investigating and prosecuting agency brings the charges.
4. No jury is going to convict even if an investigating agency, prosecutor and judge brings the charges and lets it go to a jury.
BUT…the key words there are PROBABLY and TODAY. Probably is not good enough for me and even though that is the way it probably is today, it may not be that way tomorrow, so why break all of the rules and do something so stupid nobody can understand why on earth you did it and save yourself the trouble of both killing those under your supervision AND worrying about going to prison after you have spent everything you have or ever will have on a shit bag attorney (and fines) to try and keep you out of prison.
Oh…and one more thing. Buy professional liability insurance. I carried one million dollars (1,000,000) of liability insurance the entire time I worked in law enforcement that I paid for myself. It was only about $350.00 a year and it is tax deductible.
WTKTT is right on–unbelievable that Marsh and Steed would risk and cause the deaths of seventeen lives yet they did for a fact do that. Unbelievable that people are gullible enough to go along with those that would cover the facts by their so called expert opinions and redactions–especially considering that safety of future wild land fire fighters is at stake.
Well…here is a first for IM…I think. Thanks to the Yahoo home page I just diagnosed myself with a non curable fatal illness that is going to greatly decrease my life expectancy that is almost always found in smokers…COPD. Fuck me…what next? A brain tumor and now this!
I started comparing why I said I couldn’t go on the long steep hike to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Park with the symptoms of COPD and guess what? I’m sure I have it. A medication that can relieve the symptoms of COPD was advertising on Yahoo and everything lines up. Nintey per cent of the deaths from COPD come from developing countries. Gee…I feel like I won the lottery…except in reverse.
Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) is a type of obstructive lung disease characterized by long term poor airflow. The main symptoms include shortness of breath and cough with sputum production. COPD typically worsens over time.[1] Eventually walking up stairs or carrying things will be difficult.[2] Chronic bronchitis and emphysema are older terms used for different types of COPD.[2][3] The term “chronic bronchitis” is still used to define a productive cough that is present for at least three months each year for two years.[4]
Tobacco smoking is the most common cause of COPD, with a number of other factors such as air pollution and genetics playing a smaller role.[5] In the developing world, one of the common sources of air pollution is poorly vented heating and cooking fires.[2] Long-term exposure to these irritants causes an inflammatory response in the lungs resulting in narrowing of the small airways and breakdown of lung tissue.[6] The diagnosis is based on poor airflow as measured by lung function tests.[7] In contrast to asthma, the airflow reduction does not improve much with the use of a bronchodilator.[2]
And for wildland firefighters out there…heads up.
Occupational exposures
Intense and prolonged exposure to workplace dusts, chemicals and fumes increase the risk of COPD in both smokers and nonsmokers.[36] Workplace exposures are believed to be the cause in 10–20% of cases.[37] In the United States they are believed to be related to more than 30% of cases among those who have never smoked and probably represent a greater risk in countries without sufficient regulations.[1]
A number of industries and sources have been implicated, including[8] high levels of dust in coal mining, gold mining, and the cotton textile industry, occupations involving cadmium and isocyanates, and fumes from welding.[36] Working in agriculture is also a risk.[8] In some professions the risks have been estimated as equivalent to that of one half to two packs of cigarettes a day.[38] Silica dust exposure can also lead to COPD, with the risk unrelated to that for silicosis.[39] The negative effects of dust exposure and cigarette smoke exposure appear to be additive or possibly more than additive.[38]
Unless I can get a lung transplant, but they say that is usually a long shot. Does anybody out there have some good lungs you don’t need anymore?
Well…this is locking the barn door after all of the fuckin’ horse have been stolen.
Prevention – Most cases of COPD are potentially preventable through decreasing exposure to smoke and improving air quality.
Good tip…thanks.
I never smoked and I hear by publicly offer to see if my lung is suitable for you. It use to be a well conditioned properly excersized lung until my losses in 9/11 than my life locked in a trap and the best I do for my lungs now is at ease or steep walks and hikes… But if serious let’s talk…I never thought to donate a body part dead or alive..yet let’s discuss private how serious or if its another rhetorical situation
also note the devil is real Gary
I can in person tell you how tight he is in creating chaos and division-
did anyone think about him on 6-30-13?
no…it was God that had that plan some say…
I disagree.
I feel there is man made errors and this town and its surrounding communities view a person like me who is doing NO different than a media outlet when asking for foias…you never see me discuss my results recently as I get them—I learn from it and go on but it helps bring clarity to the fire for me…areas I need clarity—now if I saw an area that needed to be public I would either ALERT you all here or tell you to go get a commercial purpose foia on such and such topic…but in no way am I gonna tie myself into the crony system based on the non-commercial definition played within the state of Arizona…this state has now proven to me how the law means something for me but not them…then one wonders HOW the people are fighting and killing cops but then certain cops can kill a man November 2013 someone near and dear to knowing someone on this fire and yet they did no wrong..accountability/etc. just some 44 y.o. man depressed who needed to be shot ??? It is a truly SCREWED UP system. If I could I would move as far away from the state I fell in love and was born and raised in…A R I Z O N A. The people running the shows really have disappointed me and if I knew of a place where I could live off the land legally and away from civilization I would…My grandpa told me of a neat spot in Hawaii he spent time with Shirley Temple and maybe some day I will do that area-
alot of locals are talking about police shooting even Josh Brolin so let’s look at local footage of a fatal killing—
https://youtu.be/FG0160ulYfg
these are the ones I “know of”—
It is another area that needs a serious LOOKIE LOO at
is it that the system is broken or the people are or both-
Fatal shootings by law enforcement in Yavapai County since 2000:
June 10, 2001, Cottonwood: Gary Michael Gamblin, 30, shot by YCSO Deputy Victor Dartt. Deputies responded to a report of a family fight in the 2500 block of Mountain View. While deputies were trying to take Gamblin into custody, he resisted. Both Dartt and Gamblin were shot. Gamblin died at the scene.
April 19, 2002, Prescott: Shannon Allen, 30, shot by Prescott Police Sgt. Ken Morley. Members of the Partners Against Narcotics Trafficking task force were conducting a warrant search on a home in the 800 block of Division Street when Allen, who was in bed, grabbed a gun and pointed it at Morley, who shot him.
May 14, 2002, Prescott Valley: Richard Behner, 48, shot by Prescott Valley Police Officer Bill Burns. Behner was being sought for violation of a court order when officers confronted him in a parking lot in the 2400 block of Great Western Drive. He pulled a .357 semi-automatic handgun out of the car, fired it at officers, and Burns shot him.
Oct. 18, 2003, Black Canyon City: John Lichtenwalter, 73, shot by three YCSO deputies: Ben Lenett, Frank Alvarez, and Ryan Goodell. They went to Lichtenwalter’s home because he had called a Texas healthcare provider threatening suicide. Lichtenwalter had a handgun and the three deputies ordered him to put it down. Instead, he pointed it at them, and the deputies fired.
Jan. 8, 2004, Seligman: Uve Reesh, 46, shot by YCSO Deputy Steve Polanchak. Reesh was believed to have run over and killed a man, and then dumped the body. As deputies were putting up crime scene tape at a location on Stagecoach Road, Reesh drove up and tried to run down a deputy. Polanchak fired at the car, killing Reesh.
July 31, 2004, Prescott Valley: Martin Andrews, 25, shot by Prescott Valley Police Officers Mark Postula and Jake Jackson. Officers responded to a West Sauter Drive address for a report of shots fired. The two officers encountered Andrews in a garage, he pointed a .223 caliber rifle at them, and they returned fire.
Feb. 28, 2006, Wilhoit: Chad Chlebowski, 30, shot by YCSO Deputy Chris Krogedal.
Deputies responded to a home in the 8800 block of South Donald Trail for a report of domestic violence. Chlebowski confronted them with a gun and Krogeldal shot him.
June 3, 2006: Spring Valley: Daniel R. Price, 44, shot by YCSO deputy Shane Weber.
Price’s brother called 911 to report the Price was threatening him. When Weber responded to the home in the 17000 block of Lake View Court, Price confronted him with a gun and a small explosive and Weber fired.
Feb. 4, 2009, Chino Valley: Charles Eddlemon, 26, shot by CVPD Officer Brian Eckenboy. Eddlemon was driving “erratically,” police said, and, after crashing his car in the 1900 block of Yellow Brick Road, became aggressive and charged Eckenboy, who fired multiple rounds.
April 1, 2009, Black Canyon City: An unidentified man shot by YCSO Deputies Ted Direen and William Suttle. The man was the subject of a pre-arranged drug buy at a gas station. When the deputies identified themselves, the man drove his car at them, and the deputies fired at him. The car continued a quarter-mile and crashed, at which point, deputies determined that the man had been fatally shot.
Feb. 25, 2010, Ash Fork: Andy Hammond, 43, shot by YCSO Deputy Christopher Clouse. Clouse answered a call for a man who pulled a gun at a business and stole a truck. Clouse caught up to Hammond at a gas station, where Hammond, wearing a bullet-proof vest, drew a gun. Clouse fired a single shot.
April 17, 2010, Prescott Valley: Donald Smith, 54, shot by Prescott Valley Police Officers Jake Jackson and Tyrane Payne. Police were called to Smith’s home in the 5200 block of Stetson Drive for a report of a physical domestic violence incident. Smith confronted officers with a knife. A TASER was used, but was ineffective, and Jackson and Payne shot him.
April 2, 2011, Cottonwood: Betty Shanafelt, 62, shot by Cottonwood Police Officer Steve Phoenix. Shanafelt was reportedly suicidal and told four officers to kill her; they tried a TASER twice without success. When Shanafelt drew a gun on Phoenix, he fired three times with a rifle.
Sept. 4, 2011, Yarnell: Tammy Mack, 51, shot by YCSO Deputy Ron Williams. A caller to 911 reported that Mack was attacking her husband with a shovel. Williams confronted her inside the home and she attempted to stab him with a knife. Williams fatally shot Mack.
April 11, 2013, Cottonwood: Kodie Victor, 67, shot by Cottonwood Police Officer Scott Dever. Police responded to the 1300 block of East Gila Street for a report of a suicidal man with a handgun. While they talked to Victor, he pointed his gun at Dever, who fired.
Nov. 20, 2013, Prescott: Larry Clay, 44, shot by Prescott Police Officer Jared Willis. Clay, reportedly suicidal, confronted Willis with two large kitchen knives outside his home in the 4400 block of Hornet Drive. When Clay refused orders to drop them and charged Willis, the officer fired three times.
(NOTE- this retired fire chief Willis’s son who was a part of a fatal shooting)
Oct. 17, 2014, Dewey: Harvey Mullenax, 31, shot by YCSO Deputy Jason Morgan. Mullenax, a possible suspect in a vehicle theft, was contacted by Morgan as he walked across Highway 169. Mullenax attacked Morgan, using his patrol car to run him down, before Morgan was able to draw his gun and fire.
Dec. 18, 2014, Dewey: Daniel Gray, 51, shot by YCSO Deputy Justin White. Gray was in his home in the 1200 block of Oxbow Drive when two deputies, called by a former girlfriend who said Gray was suicidal, arrived. Gray had a gun, and pointed it at White, who shot him five times.
March 21, 2015, Cottonwood: Enoch Gaver, 21, shot by Cottonwood Police Officer Richard Hicks. Gaver was involved in a melee in a Walmart parking lot in which eight officers fought with nine members of the same family. Gaver reportedly wrestled a gun away from another officer before Hicks shot him.
May 30, 2015, Cottonwood: Ebin L. Proctor, 18, shot by YCSO Deputy Steven Gorman. Proctor ran from a traffic stop in the Verde Village, was cornered, and a TASER and pepper spray were “ineffective” in subduing him, a spokesman said, after which Proctor attacked Gorman, who shot him.
Sept. 2, 2015, Williamson Valley: Arthur Bates, 45, shot by YCSO Deputy Ethan Stover. Bates was walking around the outside of his home in the 4300 block of Marlow Drive, firing a gun, seemingly at random targets. When several deputies surrounded him, ordering him to drop the weapon, he refused, saying he wanted to commit suicide. Bates pointed the gun at Stover, and Stover fired one shot.
Sept. 25, 2015, Wilhoit: Jeffrey Blood, 45, shot by YCSO Deputies Dakota Brinkley and Brandon Warren and State Trooper Christopher Wilson. Blood was at a party at his home in the 9200 block of South Steven Trail, where he was reportedly shooting in the back yard. The three officers ordered him to drop the gun. When he threatened them, they shot him.
We should really take a step back and think about it,
My dad killed someone and because he was an officer they made sure PR worked its magic and praised and awarded him for saving a life and got him where he had lung surgery of all things and no jail time or held repsonsible (your today topic; lungs) as he had lung cancer…I knew then there was a “devil” Gary and I knew then how the system works…just sucks is all…I wish I never seen it…but it is what it is…
I can’t be much of a voice if a man of credentials like him can’t get anywhere than who am I—
http://www.examiner.com/article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse
Thank you Joy, you really are a sweetheart. And I was just joking. I do wheeze everywhere I go, continually gulp for air in the middle of conversations, and it feels like my lungs are heavy like something is pressing on them when I walk very far, but I don’t want to live that long anyway.
I was just shocked to learn I have a non-curable terminal illness because of smoke inhalation. I think I need to write more about that on this thread. I have known for decades I have a problem in addition to the permanent damage done to my larnyx with the growths and lesions on it, I just didn’t know it has a name or how serious it can be.
I also think young firefighters should be made aware that this condition is potentially something they could be faced with, although clearly it affects some a lot more than others.
There is no question in my mind Fred breathed a lot more smoke than I did and there must not be anything wrong with him. At least nothing that a good psychiatrist might not be able to help him with.
I don’t really know if anybody in the wildland firefighting community has ever put 2+2 together and added it up to 4. Breathing nasty shit in smoke for long periods of time is bad for you.
My assistant crew boss breathed every thing I ever breathed for 10 years and he did it one year before me and one year after me and he’s OK (more or less). But I just found out it what is wrong with me….has a name, COPD.
And frankly, I would like to sharpen that stick up and shove it up the Granite Mountain Hotshot Committee’s ass and break it off with the help of the ACLU because I am now handicapped and I can’t visit their fucking park…dirty BASTARDS!
Gary,
You posted July 10, 2016: “There is no question in my mind Fred breathed a lot more smoke than I did and there must not be anything wrong with him. At least nothing that a good psychiatrist might not be able to help him with.”
HaHa, aren’t you the funny one. I think you’re the one – AT TIMES – that needs the ‘good psychiatrist.’
Psychiatrists are those folks that couldn’t quite make it in school as a psychologist, so they instead chose for the psychiatrist option.
Psychiatrists don’t really ‘help’ anyone. They give their patients drugs, lots of drugs, and more drugs.
Dr. Peter Breggin was one of the first to write about the dangers of psychiatry and drugs and has written about these same dangers for many years. phttp://www.breggin.com/
And yes, I know there are others that claim otherwise.
OK, OK, OK, Fred, just another bad joke to see if I could get a rise out of you. I figure you miss the good ole days when you worked everyday with world class ball busters and I am just thinking of you and trying to make your retirement just a little bit better. Your welcome.
It sound like you and Tom Cruise might have more in common than just good looks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFgF1JPNR5E
I know how busy you are, so it starts at about 8:45.
Gary
just to add I smoked till I was 40 started at 16.
Ate smoke all those years the worst I have is Harding of the Arteries. No Lung Problems at all. Lots of Joint Problems from the onset of Authorities. Blood pressure and Ulcers. Stuff you just live with.
I am sorry to hear about your condition.
You retire then things start going to Shit.
I have a Grand Niece my Nephews Daughter 7 Years old
she has been fighting Cystic Fibroses for 5 years and has lost one lung and has only 60% of another. Then last year she got bone cancer they have to remove her shoulder the 12th to remove the Cancer. with her lung as is she may not survive the operation.
Just saying we all face uncertain times—- live and enjoy each day and look to tomorrow.
Take care Gary.
I always say I had a hell of a ride with no regrets that’s a Good Life.
Thank you Bob, my story is not a sad one, it is a happy one, you have seen and done many of the things I have, wildland firefighting really is a noble profession with some awesome sights.
Now this,
I have a Grand Niece my Nephews Daughter 7 Years old she has been fighting Cystic Fibroses for 5 years and has lost one lung and has only 60% of another. Then last year she got bone cancer they have to remove her shoulder the 12th to remove the Cancer. with her lung as is she may not survive the operation.”
This is a sad story, the likes of which tear my heart out.
Gary
Little Caylee made it through the operation and they believe they Got the Cancer.
Her CF has been a great challenge and they are hopeful the Chemo may assist in healing the lungs they have never had a child with Both affliction’s so this is a new thing to them.
Her age has been a problem for the treatment until she got Cancer.
We have, all in my Family shed a lot of tears but She is a tough little 7 year old.
She would put many of us big bad guys to shame the way she faces each day.
So the day so far has been good to Caylee and her Family. She has been given a longer stay here with all of us.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
July 12, 2016 at 8:49 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Little Caylee made it through the
>> operation and they believe they
>> Got the Cancer.
That’s wonderful news, Bob.
Well…I guess that is a silver lining to an otherwise horrific story…situations like this are what make me question just what the Great Creator is thinking.
MY REPLIES IN CAPS BELOW-
Bob Powers says
JULY 12, 2016 AT 8:49 PM
Gary
Little Caylee made it through the operation and they believe they Got the Cancer. WONDERFUL NEWS- NOW IT IS TIME TO REST, EXERCISE AND STRETCH AND GET THE POISONS OUT AND GET TO LIVING…AND DRINK MORE WATER 🙂 AND ENJOY HER FAMILY AND FRIENDS!
Her CF has been a great challenge I AM GENETICALLY A CARRIER OF THAT DISEASE- CYSTIC FIBROSIS AND SO SORRY TO HEAR KIDS FACING IT—I DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN DUE TO MY GENETIC MAKEUP BUT I AM RELIEVED IN A WAY—
and they are hopeful the Chemo may assist in healing the lungs they have never had a child with Both affliction’s so this is a new thing to them. WELL, I HAVE HAD A LONG ASS JOURNEY WITH MY BS AND ON TOPIC I STAY FAR FROM THE POISONS AND IF I PULL THROUGH IT WILL BE POISON FREE BUT SURE HATE TO HEAR AND GO AND VOLUNTEER IN KIDS HOSPITAL AREAS TO SEE THEM FACING THIS…KIDS ARE BETTER TO BOUNCE BACK THAN ADULTS I RECKON BUT STILL SUCKS!
Her age has been a problem for the treatment until she got Cancer. REALLY? HER AGE…HOW COME…
We have, all in my Family shed a lot of tears but She is a tough little 7 year old.MY FAVORITE AGE IN LIFE— YOU CAN DO ALOT AT SEVEN
She would put many of us big bad guys to shame the way she faces each day.WELL WHAT THE HECK ELSE CAN SHE DO—YOU LEARN YOU GOT ONE THING THAN ANOTHER AND THEN YOU TEST YOUR GENETICS AND LEARN ALOT IS THERE BUT SOME EARLY AGE ENVIRONMENT SO WHERE LOOK AT AREAS SHE RESIDED IN—IT’S A BREAK DOWN PROCESS BUT IN ADULTS IT IS MAINLY STRESS BUT KIDS ARE DIFFERENT—
So the day so far has been good to Caylee and her Family. She has been given a longer stay here with all of us.WAY COOL—LET CAYLEE KNOW I KNOW SHE CAN DO THIS—ROCK ON GIRL!
Gary, thanks for sharing the YouTube link. Cruise does an excellent job arguing his points opposing psychiatry and their use of. psychotropic drugs. The Scientologists, of which he is one, have also done a very good job exposing the dangers of Psychiatry and Psychotropic drugs.
In 1969 Scientologists established the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), a watchdog group that investigates and exposes psychiatric violations of human rights.
I believe that Scientology is one of many false religions. So, in no way am I endorsing or approving Scientology, only that they for many years now, have aggressively researched and revealed the dangers of Psychiatry and Psychotropic drugs.
Even though I may be philosophically or otherwise opposed to someone or their beliefs, if they make a good, cogent argument or case for or against something, then I will accept it.
They even offer a free DVD titled: ‘Psychiatry, An Industry of Death.’ Check it out, it’s FREE.
WTKTT,
You posted on July 17, 2016 at 1:31 PM: “One of my own ( personal ) criteria for ‘sound doctrine’ happens to include a requirement that it doesn’t fucking contradict itself ever 4 ‘paragraphs’ or ‘chapters’ or ‘verses’ and require scholars working for over a thousand years to try and figure out what it all means.”
Outstanding. Good for you.
Then you should know that Biblical ‘sound doctrine’ “doesn’t fucking contradict itself ever[y] 4 ‘paragraphs’ or ‘chapters’ or ‘verses’ and require scholars working for over a thousand years to try and figure out what it all means.”
The Bible is proven true everyday and certainly every time there is another archeological find.
You will choose to believe what you choose to believe as I will,and we will just have to continue to ‘agree to disagree.’
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
post on July 17, 2016 at 1:50 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> You will choose to believe what
>> you choose to believe as I will, and
>> we will just have to continue
>> to ‘agree to disagree.’
Yep.
And the next time some moron is allowed to be the official ‘spokesman’ for civil-service agencies at the first official ‘press conference’ following another National Tragedy and offers up ( as an official explanation ) that the ‘reason’ supposed professional firefighters all burned to death on the floor of blind box canyon full of explosive, unburned fuel, with no lookout, one-half mile from a raging wind-driven fireline at the height of the burn cycle is because…
“God had a different plan for those men.
…then I imagine we will have this discussion again.
At least YOU are not one of the ‘morons’ who can just ‘accept’ that as the ‘total explanation’… and you HAVE been doing your homework on this incident.
You actually DO have my (ongoing) ‘respect’ for that.
Carry on.
https://youtu.be/cczMYy89EHc
all this talk on drugs and killings and religion….
little time for flashback Sunday-
I know a few that will see this and smile 🙂
Rave time…so late 80’s early 90’s eh-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8MduCcOTT0
back to our feature presentation:
wildfire folks who fight these fires/state/federal/government transparency.
a top priority.
The investigation to date has focused exclusively on the acquisition and review of public documents.
but wouldn’t it be great to be flies on the wall at certain places
just saying…
Extravagant spending and cozy relationships sets the stage for more serious issues
Wildfire Season is currently happening…any concerns this season to look at?
Uh, no Joy…move along… 🙂
Of course this is the video that made America aware that Tom Cruise is unhinged. He is intolerant of people who don’t think like he does, don’t worship like he does, don’t believe in the same things he believes in and don’t agree with him and his world view.
Do you know anybody like that? I do. I know several and one of them in named Darrell Willis and there are a lot of people just like him. People who think there should be religious tests in America to be Americans.
People who think it is OK to spread THEIR brand of religion at work and to people under their control and supervision…you know….bad people who the Founding Fathers would NOT approve of. People they might hang…because things were tougher and stricter back then…you know, in the good ole days. .
Gary,
You asked if I knew any ‘intolerant people’ who don’t believe, think, or worship like Tom Cruise or others and then posted: “one of them [is] named Darrell Willis and there are a lot of people just like him. People who think there should be religious tests in America to be Americans.”
Really? Are you serious?
“People who think it is OK to spread THEIR brand of religion at work and to people under their control and supervision…you know….bad people who the Founding Fathers would NOT approve of. People they might hang…because things were tougher and stricter back then…you know, in the good ole days. .”
Here’s a pretty good paper titled “A Godless Constitution?: A Response to Kramnick and Moore by Daniel L. Dreisbach on the very issue of ‘Religious Tests’ in American during it’s formative years during the Constitutional framing.
http://www.leaderu.com/common/godlessconstitution.html
Neither Darrel Willis nor the GMHS forced any religion on anyone nor did they ‘.spread THEIR brand of religion at work and to people under their control and supervision.’
Where do all you guys come up with that? Many, if not most, of these GMHS men are/were Christians. Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ, it is NOT a religion or a ‘brand of religion.’
The ones who really ‘spread THEIR brand of religion at work and to people under their control and supervision’ are those that believe in and practice Secular Humanism, where Man and/or Government is/are God.
Check out the U.S. Supreme Cort ruling in the ‘Town of Greece (NY) vs. Galloway court case.
The case dealt with the LEGISLATIVE body of local Government.
https://www.oyez.org/cases/2013/12-696
“Though the respondents testified that they felt OFFENDED by these prayers, Justice Kennedy distinguished between OFFENSE and COERCION and noted that the former [OFFENSE] does NOT violate the Establishment Clause.”
In other words, there no legal recourse in being ‘offended.’ Myself and others are ‘offended’ by all kinds of stuff every single day and we just deal with it. We tolerate them, so they have to tolerate us. It goes both ways.
rts said-Neither Darrel Willis nor the GMHS forced any religion on anyone nor did they ‘.spread THEIR brand of religion at work and to people under their control and supervision.’
MY REPLY- I met firefighters who have stated they learned about God from men on the GMHS crew-
that is facts. Let’s talk about the 5 firefighters that did defensible space on Sonny’s property- FACTS…Andrew Williams was friends with Deford and learned about God from him..FACTS! I could go on…
Joy,
You posted on July 10, 2016: “MY REPLY- I met firefighters who have stated they learned about God from men on the GMHS crew-
that is facts. Let’s talk about the 5 firefighters that did defensible space on Sonny’s property- FACTS…Andrew Williams was friends with Deford and learned about God from him..FACTS! I could go on…”
Well, go on then.
The First Amendment Establishment Clause allows for Freedom OF Religion and NOT Freedom FROM Religion.
Those men were allowed to talk about anything they wanted to talk about.
RTS
The point was made.
You said none had talked or persuaded or whatever the sentence was…just waking up later than usual and you said they did not yet Andrew William learned about God from Deford so yes there was that going on so you come back now with freedom of speech but any person who does not get what you say and specifically ask for your leadership quality to explain it you pass it over like you did me down below.. Its obvious your freedom of speech is much like my own father who was a Leo and born 8-21 so I would say its like corresponding with my father who says stuff and when I don’t comprehend he abandons my questions… I’m pegging you that way and moved on. Yo ur freedom of speech is selective and what audience you want…its OK…I have to get..taking sonny to hospital.. He was in er and now moving him tonphnx area to fix foreign body to eye…
Joy,
So it’s okay to use God’s name in vain (GD this or that, Jesus f**king Christ, etc.) but it’s NOT okay to talk about God?
What law states that someone is not allowed to talk about God?
Do you consider talking about God to be the same as ‘forcing religion’ on someone or spreading ‘their brand of religion’?
I would really like to know how you and so many others would feel if Darrell Willis, those who support him back then and now and all of the others that pushed and is some cases….even forced their brand Christianity on the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew would feel and what you would say…if he and the others were Muslim’s pushing that religion on others.
You don’t think that having a squad boss, crew boss or senior crewman say OK…everyone who wants to either pray in God’s name or hear about the Word Of God and Jesus Christ assemble over here and implied that everyone who doesn’t want to be accepted, have any friends or remain on the crew can go somewhere else…made any difference to how they exercised their “free will.”
Oh…and how about if the last words out of Jesse Steed’s mouth on the radio before he followed Eric Marsh’s order to descend into a brush choked death chute directly into the path of a fire storm of Biblical proportions was….Allahu Akbar! How would you and those who think like you do feel then.
Oh…and one more thing. As I have said before, I am not a Mormon, but I have an affinity for those who are even though one of my great great uncles was one the most famous pioneer era Mormons (at least in Arizona and Utah) Jacob Hamblin.
There was at least one Mormon on the crew, even though he was a convert because he married one, so he may not have been targeted by Mormon haters as much as he would have been otherwise. Everybody can understand getting converted to a false religion if the girl of your dreams is one and that is a condition to get her to marry you.
And one of YOUR leaders…Franklin Graham has made his hatred of Mormons publicly known as so many of your leaders and people like Darrell Willis and those who think like him have.
Look closely at a Mormon and you will probably see someone who is sensitive to religious persecution and defensive of religions who are considered to be false religions by people like you. Which is just reason Donald Trump is going to lose the election in a historic landslide…threatening Senator Jeff Flake in HIS house…really?
After all, every Christian is a member of a break-a-way sect of the Catholic Church. That is all you are my friend…an outspoken and intelligent spokesperson of one particular minority Christian break-a-way SECT…nothing more.
rts said: Do you consider talking about God to be the same as ‘forcing religion’ on someone or spreading ‘their brand of religion’?
MY REPLY: depends on source…you have to hear some locals here and I would say YEPPERS
Gary,
No telling where this will appear.
You posted on July 12, 2016 at 6:55 PM: “You don’t think that having a squad boss, crew boss or senior crewman say OK…everyone who wants to either pray in God’s name or hear about the Word Of God and Jesus Christ assemble over here and implied that everyone who doesn’t want to be accepted, have any friends or remain on the crew can go somewhere else…made any difference to how they exercised their “free will.”
Why not? We all have the freedom of choice. I guess those that were weak and need to ‘belong’ or ‘go along to get along’ would give in to that and others would simply exercise their ‘free will’ and walk away.
You also posted: “Oh…and how about if the last words out of Jesse Steed’s mouth on the radio before he followed Eric Marsh’s order to descend into a brush choked death chute directly into the path of a fire storm of Biblical proportions was….Allahu Akbar!”
“How would you and those who think like you do feel then[?].”
These last 2 are Logical Fallacies, so I’m listing several that I think may apply here.
Argument from ignorance (appeal to ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam) – assuming that a claim is true because it has not been or cannot be proven false, or vice versa.
Argument from silence (argumentum ex silentio) – where the conclusion is based on the absence of evidence, rather than the existence of evidence.
Shifting the burden of proof (see – onus probandi) – I need not prove my claim, you must prove it is false.
Correlation proves causation (post hoc ergo propter hoc) – a faulty assumption that correlation between two variables implies that one causes the other.
Equivocation – the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time).
Red herring – a speaker attempts to distract an audience by deviating from the topic at hand by introducing a separate argument the speaker believes is easier to speak to.
Reification (concretism, hypostatization, or the fallacy of misplaced concreteness) – a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete, real event or physical entity. In other words, it is the error of treating as a “real thing” something that is not a real thing, but merely an idea.
False analogy – an argument by analogy in which the analogy is poorly suited.
Gary,
I have no idea where this post will end up either.
You posted: July 12, 2016 at 7:47 PM “And one of YOUR leaders…Franklin Graham has made his hatred of Mormons publicly known as so many of your leaders and people like Darrell Willis and those who think like him have.”
Franklin Graham’s alleged ‘hatred of Mormons’ is NOT with Mormons themselves, but with their False Religion. And no man is my leader, therefore, Franklin Graham is NOT one of my leaders. Jesus Christ is my leader.
You are generalizing and using more Logical Fallacies.
I have never heard Darrel Willis speak ill of the Mormons and so I think you are falsely accusing him with that statement.
You also posted: “Look closely at a Mormon and you will probably see someone who is sensitive to religious persecution and defensive of religions who are considered to be false religions by people like you. Which is just reason Donald Trump is going to lose the election in a historic landslide … threatening Senator Jeff Flake in HIS house…really?”
The Mormons are extremely devoted to their ‘religion’ and their alleged religious leaders and very family oriented. If they would only look into the Mormon Doctrine, they would realize how bizarre it is.
Yes, the Mormons are “sensitive to religious persecution and defensive of religions who are considered to be false religions.”
You are taking quite a leap down the slippery slope here. And completely jumping from one conclusion to another with this one: “Which is just [one] reason Donald Trump is going to lose the election in a historic landslide … threatening Senator Jeff Flake in HIS house…really?”
You may be right. Only time will tell.
You also posted: “After all, every Christian is a member of a break-a-way sect of the Catholic Church. That is all you are my friend…an outspoken and intelligent spokesperson of one particular minority Christian break-a-way SECT…nothing more.”
What you posted about Christians being members of a breakaway sect of the Catholic Church is partially true. And so, what is wrong with breaking away from something so blatantly false and corrupt?
The Catholic Church in its own Catholic Encyclopedia mentions time and again that Catholicism is “based on paganism.”
The remaining quotes are from the very comprehensive and informative link below.
“Incidentally, similar paths from “sect” to “world religion” took place among the Buddhists, Jainists, Sikhs, and Bahai faiths but none of these grew and spread with such vigor as the Christian faith, primarily because its message of a loving God forgiving, adopting, and cleansing sinful man apart from religious works of that sinful man was as revolutionary then as it is today.”
“The earliest Christian church was established by Jesus Christ and richly developed by His disciples and especially the Apostle Paul’s missionary journeys.”
“It began as a Jewish sect and its members were referred to as “Followers of The Way”. Which was based primarily on Jesus’ own words in John 14:6 “I AM the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me.’”
“In the book of Acts, the Bible reports that these “Followers” were called “Christians” for the first time in Antioch. It was a derisive term which meant “little Christs”. The name given in derision was a perfect fit for what true Christianity represented: being a smaller version i.e. representative or imitator of Christ, so the name was a hit among Christians and it stuck.”
http://www.truthforsaints.com/Christian_Denominations/Christian_Denominations.html
RTS,
It’s a doggone shame that not one of those argument types you have quoted apply to Gary’s question(s). Not even close, man. Including the latin was a nice touch though…made it sound so sophisticated. Keep trying, you may get one…eventually. Never give up! haha
You are at your most entertaining when you go the uber-quote high-brow ultra-sophistication route.
I know. I know. I can ESAD,,,,,,,
Woodsman
RTS,
You said:
“These last 2 are Logical Fallacies, so I’m listing several that I think may apply here.”
The term ‘logical fallacy’ makes no sense. I will explain it in your native tongue, it’s a contradictio in terminis. If something is logical then it’s of sound reasoning. If something is a fallacy than it’s not of sound reasoning. So ‘logical fallacy’ is similar to saying ‘same difference.’ (man, I hate that one)
Was your understanding of Gary’s statement a formal or informal fallacy? Start there. That should help you figure out what you believe is wrong with the argument and identify the proper fallacy if there is one. Throwing up a hodgepodge of possibilities just seems silly.
OK. I got this one: Go jump in a lake, Woodsman!!!
Woodsman
RTS said, “And no man is my leader, therefore, Franklin Graham is NOT one of my leaders”
Sorry bout that…you people all look alike to me.
OK Fred…I am going to admit it, trying to understand your argument makes my head hurt, I’m not saying it’s not one helluva good argument, I’m just saying it makes my head hurt to try and follow it.
So…I am going to try to keep this simple from my end. I think that saying what Willis said, which was the crew died because God had a different plan for those men, a statement that you have said you agree with…is no different in my mind to saying, “Allahu Akbar” which literally means “God is greater” or “God is the greatest.” but is used to mean, “In the name of God” or “God’s will.”
And of course it is also used as a battle cry when Islamic Terrorists are about to deliberately commit mass murder of non combatants as opposed to how we do it, with bombs delivered by war planes, attack helicopters and cruise missiles instead of trucks. So when we kill civilians, it is morally acceptable because they are collateral damage and not targeted kills…I guess?
Actually…I don’t know what is wrong with going back to how both our enemies and “we” did it during WWII…kill everyone we can until they stop fighting (see, the fire bombings of Dresden, the Blitz of London and the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, you know…to see which bomb worked best, Little Boy or Fat Man.) by deliberately targeting civilian populations to demoralize the enemy and to deny them recruits, supplies, and a base of operations?
They say we can’t kill our way out of this mess. And I say maybe that’s because we haven’t started trying hard enough…yet. But forgive…I digress.
So…once again here is my point. How would you feel if Jesse Steed would have said into the radio just before he led his crew to their deaths on Eric Marsh’s orders, “Allahu Akbar.” And of course that also assumes Steed would have been of the Muslim faith.
I am betting that invoking God’s name for what happened or was about to happen would NOT have okay with either you or former PFD Pastor Willis. In other words, I beleive you are fine with YOUR God being up to his neck in what happened but you would not feel the same way about Allahu being in the mix.
As far as you never hearing Willis defame Mormons…I was a lot closer to Willis than ever have ever been, I got that one right on the money. Take it to the bank and cash it…because it’s good.
And FYI – It is pretty hard to throw a rock in any of the western states and NOT hit a Mormon, someone who respects and likes Mormons, or someone who doesn’t have a family member who is Mormon. So…watch where you throw rocks, even in Prescott…the place is crawling with them.
Whoops, “As far as you never hearing Willis defame Mormons…I was a lot closer to Willis than YOU ever have ever been, I got that one right on the money. Take it to the bank and cash it…because it’s good.”
Whoops, it should read, “As far as you never hearing Willis defame Mormons…I was a lot closer to Willis than YOU ever have ever been, I got that one right on the money. Take it to the bank and cash it…because it’s good.”
And I am NOT advocating a tactical nuclear strike on Raqqa and beyond. But I am saying that if it’s a binary choice…us or them…I pick THEM.
Oh…and one more thing. You said, “Which is just [one] reason Donald Trump is going to lose the election in a historic landslide … threatening Senator Jeff Flake in HIS house…really?”
You may be right. Only time will tell.”
And YOU may right, only time will tell. Although it is a win/win for me.
If we can get another progressive in the White House, I think it will be better for everyone who is not part of the top 1%,
But either way, it will be OK with me since I have my piece of the pie and I am right smack in the middle of Trump’s demographic base…an angry old white guy who was never anything more than a blue collar worker at heart even though I wore a white collar for 18 years. Well…it was either white or BDU…depending on the day.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
July 15, 2016 at 12:22 am
>> Gary said…
>>
>> OK Fred…I am going to admit it, trying
>> to understand your argument makes
>> my head hurt,
An awful lot of ‘fancy talk’ for just…
“I do not WANT to answer that question”.
( Which, itself, is an answer ).
If there was any set of ‘imaginary friends’ that Eric Marsh was ‘aligned with’ at the time of his death… it would appear to be of the ‘Buddhist’ kind.
There is a statue of Buddha on his ACTUAL grave marker on his ACTUAL grave there in the Prescott Pioneer cemetery.
So maybe the more relevant question to ask is…
Who was allowed to decide that a Christian cross be stuck in the ground on the spot where he died?
And not just ANY ‘Christian cross’, either.
Someone made a choice to use the ‘Budded cross’ variant for all 19 ‘crosses’.
The ‘Budded Cross’ is also known as the Apostles’ Cross, the Treflée, Botonée or Cathedral Cross.
It supposedly has its own origins from the time when Christianity was being ‘saved’ by the Irish and many pre-Christian Celtic ( RTS would call them ‘pagan’ ) symbols where being ‘integrated’ into the ‘product branding’ and the ‘icons’.
So WHO decided that THAT is the ‘cross’ that should mark the places where all 19 of those men died… regardless of their ‘religious’ affiliations ( or lack thereof )?
Darrell Willis?
Deborah Pfingston?
I actually don’t think it was Amanda Marsh.
Those are all really good questions that I would like to know the answers to. As everyone knows by now, I really believe in the separation of church and state.
As I have also said before, I worked at what I consider to be the center of the Catholic Faith in the United States for 12 years that is actually named Santa Fe = Holy Faith and another 4 years at what could be described as the secondary location…Albuquerque which is a 300 year city named after the Spanish Duke of Albuquerque and I never once, I repeat never once, felt ANY influence in any way on how we conducted the work for the people as public servants.
I don’t think there is any excuse for the quasi born again Christian intrusion into the GMIHC when they were alive or now that they are dead. They were civil servants, not employees of Christ.
And discriminate against a Muslim, or an atheist or someone who practices the Shinto faith and you discriminate against me.
Oh…and one more thing RTS, atheists and many other people think all religious beliefs are…BIZARRE. You are the pot calling the kettle black.
So…let me get this straight. Just because a dead body isn’t where you left it the night before the next morning…that means it came back alive and floated up or down or sideways to heaven and is going to come back to Earth in the future so you have to get ready for that event?
Take your personal belief out of that scenario and tell how BIZARRE that sounds, but you and the Mormons share that very same belief. in exactly the very same way, for the very same reasons.
Woodsman says
July 14, 2016 at 7:19 pm
“RTS,
It’s a doggone shame that not one of those argument types you have quoted apply to Gary’s question(s). Not even close, man. Including the latin was a nice touch though … made it sound so sophisticated. Keep trying, you may get one…eventually. Never give up! haha”
Thanks for your reply. You know I post these from time to time to draw you out of the shadows.
You posted that not one of the logical fallacies apply, yet you provide me no counter argument and/or proof. Pretty weak.
The Latin was in the original citations, not mine. At least I cite my sources and/or provide links for people to verify, more than most do.
“You are at your most entertaining when you go the uber-quote high-brow ultra-sophistication route.”
Not taking any “uber-quote high-brow ultra-sophistication route.” At least I cite my sources and/or provide links for people to verify, more than most do.
“I know. I know. I can ESAD,,,,,,,”
That’s up to you.
Gary Olson says
July 14, 2016 at 11:38 pm
“RTS said, “And no man is my leader, therefore, Franklin Graham is NOT one of my leaders”
Sorry bout that…you people all look alike to me.”
So then, what distinguishing feature(s) and/or how do all of us “people all look alike” to you?
Is that from all your years of Law Dog experience that you acquired that alleged skill?
Gary,
You posted July 15, 2016 at 12:22 am:
“I am betting that invoking God’s name for what happened or was about to happen would NOT have okay with either you or former PFD Pastor Willis. In other words, I beleive [sp?] you are fine with YOUR God being up to his neck in what happened but you would not feel the same way about Allahu being in the mix.”
Not quite sure what you mean by “invoking God’s name for what happened or was about to happen would NOT have okay with either you or former PFD Pastor Willis.”
I can assure you that many, if not most, of those men were “invoking God’s name for … [what] was about to happen” to them in their Deployment Zone and while they were dying. So that would have been okay with me and likely former PFD Pastor Willis as well..
As I have said before many times, The Bible holds and I believe that everything happens because God allows it
And regarding the “you would not feel the same way about Allahu [sp?] being in the mix” posting; it depends.
Yes, I would be okay with someone believing in Allah (‘in the mix’). Once again as you well know (or should know) , it’s our constitutional First Amendment right of Freedom of Religion.
I am NOT okay with someone invoking Allah’s name as they took the Crew to their deaths, similar to Muslim terrorist suicide bombers. That’s religious fanaticism and murder!.
And it’s a bogus argument. Give me the names, places, dates, etc. of ‘Christian’ serial killers, murderers, and/or terrorists.
And if you cite either the Crusades and/or the Spanish Inquisition, that was the murderous Roman Catholic Church, back in the day.
You also posted: “I don’t think there is any excuse for the quasi born again Christian intrusion into the GMIHC when they were alive or now that they are dead. They were civil servants, not employees of Christ.”
As you well know, it’s in the Constitution and it’s called the First Amendment right of Freedom of Religion.
You also posted: “And discriminate against a Muslim, or an atheist or someone who practices the Shinto faith and you discriminate against me.”
How am I discriminating against you or anyone else by simply DISAGREEING with you or your religious beliefs and/or stance?
You also posted: “Oh…and one more thing RTS, atheists and many other people think all religious beliefs are…BIZARRE. You are the pot calling the kettle black.”
As you well know (or should know) we are all entitled to our beliefs and associations based on the First Amendment.
You also posted: “So…let me get this straight. Just because a dead body isn’t where you left it the night before the next morning…that means it came back alive and floated up or down or sideways to heaven and is going to come back to Earth in the future so you have to get ready for that event?”
Jesus’ death and resurrection and coming back again (The Second Coming) was/is prophesied in The Bible for thousands of years.
The Bible is being proven true and accurate every single day.
You also posted: “Take your personal belief out of that scenario and tell how BIZARRE that sounds, but you and the Mormons share that very same belief. in exactly the very same way, for the very same reasons.”
It is NOT my personal belief. It is prophesied in The Bible.
And yes, me “and the Mormons share that very same belief. in exactly the very same way, for the very same reasons.”
It’s in The Bible. But they also follow The Book of Mormon, which are ‘traditions of men,’ of which is in The Bible, and we are warned against following,i.e. ‘traditions of men,’
Gary,
Some clarification about the Crusades.
“Crusades were fought for many reasons: to capture Jerusalem, recapture Christian territory, or defend Christians in non-Christian lands; as a means of conflict resolution among Roman Catholics; for political or territorial advantage; and to combat paganism and heresy.”
Much of The Crusades was battling against the Muslim terrorism of that day.
“
That is the most delusional account I have ever read anybody come up with for the Crusades. That isn’t rewriting history…that is entirely making it up. And I am no apologist for the Saracens, but you make it easy to dislike Christians. And I am a Christian.
Gary,
You posted on July 16 at 1236 am: “That is the most delusional account I have ever read anybody come up with for the Crusades. That isn’t rewriting history…that is entirely making it up. And I am no apologist for the Saracens, but you make it easy to dislike Christians. And I am a Christian.:
Interesting that you would feel that way. I am not delusional nor rewriting history. Those are not my words or thoughts. They are right out of Wikipedia, so take it up with them.
“The Crusades were a series of religious wars (broadly defined) by the Latin Church that took place between the 11th and 15th centuries, though historians do not agree on any single definition of a crusade, or which specific military campaigns should be included.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
Gary,
You posted on July 15, 2016 at 12:59 pm: “… As everyone knows by now, I really believe in the separation of church and state.”
The separation of church and state is NOT an American construct. It is NOT in our Constitution and it came about from a misinterpretation of something Thomas Jefferson wrote in a letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802.
“.To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.”
Here is a link to the Communist Constitution of 1936. . Check out Article 124.
“ARTICLE 124. In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens.”
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on July 16, 2016 at 9:18 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The separation of church and state is
>> NOT an American construct. It is NOT
>> in our Constitution and it came about
>> from a misinterpretation of something
>> Thomas Jefferson wrote in a letter to the
>> Danbury Baptists in 1802.
Sometimes you just don’t ‘Google’ long enough ( or you just stop when you find what supports the point you WANT to make ).
It has been decided MANY times by the Supreme Court ( the ultimate interpreter of the US Constitution and US Law ) that the ‘establishment’ clause that is ( very much ) IN the US Constitution ‘establishes’ the ‘separation of church and state’ in this country.
Good summary of just SOME of those Supreme Court decisions is HERE…
Article Title: Yes… there IS a Constitutional Separation of Church and State
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dale-hansen/yes-there-is-a-constituti_b_8171550.html
Just ONE example from the article above.
Everson v. Board of Education..
Article Title: Yes… there IS a Constitutional Separation of Church and State
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dale-hansen/yes-there-is-a-constituti_b_8171550.html
——————————————–
It seems that to some people, if the words don’t explicitly appear in the constitution then the idea they refer to isn’t constitutionally guaranteed. Viewing it in these simplistic terms is meant to dismiss the entire argument; as if every decision based on the separation of church and state is somehow invalid because the term separation of church and state doesn’t appear in the constitution.
Of course the problems with this assertion are many. First and most basic is the fact that the Supreme Court is the ultimate interpreter of federal constitutional law. This means that while the term “separation of Church and State” may never appear in the constitution itself, the Court ruling in the case of Everson v. Board of Education stated “the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between Church and State.’”
———————————————–
I am still going to tell her that you are a religious and intolerant BIGOT…and boy howdy, is she ever going to be pissed off at YOU and all of your little bigoted and intolerant friends!
WTKTT,
Thanks for the information on the alleged Separation of Church and State.
However, I do NOT give much credence to the uber-Liberal Huffington Post.
I prefer to put more emphasis on sources such as Wall Builders.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=123
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
July 17, 2016 at 4:35 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Thanks for the information on the
>> alleged Separation of Church and State.
>>
>> However, I do NOT give much credence
>> to the uber-Liberal Huffington Post.
The ‘alleged’ Separation of Church and State?
You’re cracking me up now.
The Huffington post is not ‘the source’.
The Supreme Court of the United States is.
I know you know how to ‘Google’ so I’ll just let you look up the case references.
WTKTT,
Yes, I know that the Supreme Court was the actual SOURCE of the rulings.
What I meant to say was that I prefer to put more emphasis on other explanatory media sources explaining the Court rulings, such as Wall Builders.
The Huff Po is far too uber-Liberal for me to accept anything they post as credible. Thanks.
Robert,
I didn’t say our Constitution said there shall be a separation of church and state. I said I believe in the separation of church and state.
And without getting down into the weeds and giving an explanation with all of the nuances, this is the clause that almost everyone except for you quotes as a reference that there shall be a separation of church and state. So…take it up with the Founding Fathers.
U.S. Constitution
First Amendment – Religion and Expression
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
And this is a LOT better, thank you for admitting your mistake describing the Crusades,
You cut and pasted, “The Crusades were a series of religious wars (broadly defined) by the Latin Church that took place between the 11th and 15th centuries, though historians do not agree on any single definition of a crusade, or which specific military campaigns should be included.”
And as far as Wikipedia goes, I like to use it as well and even donate to it but it is notoriously unreliable as a factual source of accurate quotes. That piece was obviously written by a western Christian…probably somebody like you.
This is the part you cut and pasted that I disagree with,
1. “Crusades were fought for many reasons: to capture Jerusalem, (True)
2. recapture Christian territory, (It was NOT Christian territory, (Christians invaded THEIR territory)
3. or defend Christians in non-Christian lands; (The Christians would not have needed to be defended if they hadn’t invaded someone eles’s land and would not have been where they should not have been in the first place AND BINGO on this part “non-Christian lands, so you DO get it?)
4. as a means of conflict resolution among Roman Catholics; for political or territorial advantage; and to combat paganism and heresy.” (Oh yes…I do see now that you can cut and paste the correct part to describe the Crusades, “for political or territorial advantage”, very good)
As far as this spelling goes,” Allahu [sp?” take it up with Wikipedia.
]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allahu_Akbar_(disambiguation)
You said “Not quite sure what you mean by “invoking God’s name for what happened or was about to happen would NOT have okay with either you or former PFD Pastor Willis.”
This is what I was referring to, saying in so many words what happened to the crew was God’s Will, “God had a different plan for those men”
That is the same thing as saying “Allah Akbar”, and one way that is used means, “as God wills” or I place it in God’s hands.
You said, “Jesus Christ is my leader.” And I say, the Great Creator is MY leader, Jesus Christ works for God. And if you keep it up, I am going to tell the Great Creator what you said,
So I am going back to the beginning of this “discussion” for clarification,
“I don’t think there is any excuse for the quasi born again Christian intrusion into the GMIHC when they were alive or now that they are dead. They were civil servants, not employees of Christ.”
People who think it is OK to spread THEIR brand of religion at work and to people under their control and supervision…you know….bad people who the Founding Fathers would NOT approve of.
And as far as my investigative skills goes by saying, “all you people look alike to me”, I was clearly referring to the fact that all of you religious bigots look alike to me which have nothing to do with my alleged investigative skills.
From Wikipedia, “The English noun bigot is a term of abuse aimed at a prejudiced closed-minded person, especially one who is intolerant or hostile towards different social groups (especially, and originally, other religious groups) and especially one whose own beliefs are perceived as unreasonable or excessively narrow-minded, superstitious or hypocritical.”
This is really fun. I know I haven’t been able to go to the dunes or to Moab for some time now and there must not be any fires for you to fight. Unfortunately, I don’t have as much patience as you do to look up quotable quotes and wander around the internet looking for stuff to post that you THINK supports you ridiculous arguments, I have the time, I just don’t have the patience.
Well…as usual WTKTT said what I wanted to say before I said it he said it better.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342050
Whoops, “Well…as usual WTKTT said what I wanted to say before I said it AND he said it better.”
Gary,
You posted: “And I say, the Great Creator is MY leader, Jesus Christ works for God. And if you keep it up, I am going to tell the Great Creator what you said,”
He already knows.
And furthermore, Jesus Christ does NOT work for God, He is BOTH the Son of God AND God. The Bible clearly speaks of: God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.
From the very beginning we see God as a Trinity. The plural pronouns “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26 indicate this when God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
“1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.”
“John 10:28-33 (NIV)
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Whoops…wrong place, “I am still going to tell her that you are a religious and intolerant BIGOT…and boy howdy, is she ever going to be pissed off at YOU and all of your little bigoted and intolerant friends!”
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
July 16, 2016 at 8:42 pm
>> RTS said…
>>yer
>> And furthermore, Jesus Christ does
>> NOT work for God,
Oh fer cryin;’ out loud.
I’ll call yer ‘John 10:28-33 ( NIV )’ and raise you a ‘John 6:38 ( NIV )’ ( Yes… same ‘John’ guy and same NIV Bible started by that General Electric Engineer in Seattle named Howard Long that you are so dedicated to )
“For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.”
Sure SOUNDS like a ‘contractor’ talking.
I think I’ve used that exact phrase myself a few times when I’ve shown up unannounced as a ‘sharpshooter’ and the local management asks “What the fuck are YOU doing here”… but it probably sounded more like…
“For I have come down from corporate headquarters not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. So pull up a chair and start answering some questions.”
Gary,
I will admit to being close minded when it comes to God and Jesus Christ because that is what The Word tells us, to focus on Him and not on the world and worldly things.
You posted: “The English noun bigot is a term of abuse aimed at a prejudiced closed-minded person, especially one who is intolerant or hostile towards different social groups (especially, and originally, other religious groups) and especially one whose own beliefs are perceived as unreasonable or excessively narrow-minded, superstitious or hypocritical.”
Quite a loaded definition too, adding the word “prejudiced” using circular reasoning to come to that conclusion.
Clearly, I am NOT “intolerant or hostile towards different social groups (especially, and originally, other religious groups).”
I merely DISAGREE with them as I consider those beliefs to be unbiblical and in many cases pagan, permissible non-bigot conclusions on my part.
The same ‘bigot’ definition you cite can be used against this, within the definition: “and especially one whose own beliefs are perceived as unreasonable or excessively narrow-minded, superstitious or hypocritical.”
This conclusion is from another person judging this alleged person with different beliefs.
So, by your definition, whomever says my Christian “beliefs are perceived as unreasonable or excessively narrow-minded, superstitious or hypocritical” is also a bigot.
Therefore, your definition of ‘bigot’ applies to you all as well.
This all fits so well with today’s societal notion of ‘being offended.’ So what. Deal with it.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Oh fer cryin;’ out loud.
I’ll call yer ‘John 10:28-33 ( NIV )’ and raise you a ‘John 6:38 ( NIV )’ ( Yes… same ‘John’ guy and same NIV Bible started by that General Electric Engineer in Seattle named Howard Long that you are so dedicated to )”
It’s that time …
“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.” 2 Timothy 4:3
“In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
2 Corinthians 4:4
Believe whatever you want to believe.
As I have posted before, I use the NIV because it’s fairly easy for others to understand.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
post on July 17, 2016 at 12:35 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It’s that time …
>>
>> “For the time will come when people
>> will not put up with sound doctrine.
I’ve got a news flash for you.
That ‘time’ has ALWAYS been around.
Some people ALWAYS have their ‘bullshit’ alarms set… and as well they should.
One of my own ( personal ) criteria for ‘sound doctrine’ happens to include a requirement that it doesn’t fucking contradict itself ever 4 ‘paragraphs’ or ‘chapters’ or ‘verses’ and require scholars working for over a thousand years to try and figure out what it all means.
You can ‘believe it’ ( ALL of it )… and just look beyond all the contradictions… but that still doesn’t make it ‘sound doctrine’.
You and I both know that the whole “Subservience versus the Trinity Concept” argument/debate has been going on for centuries…. and ANYONE can find ANY number of ‘quotes’ to support EITHER side of the argument all through ANY translation.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Believe whatever you want to believe.
Right back atcha. ( and we certainly don’t need each other’s ‘permission’ to do so ).
Gary,
No telling where this post will end up.
You posted: “If we can get another progressive in the White House, I think it will be better for everyone who is not part of the top 1%,”
‘[A]nother progressive in the White House’ – are you kidding me?
Progressive is merely a modern euphemism for a Socialist, a Marxist, and even a Fascist these days.
Another progressive in the White House will almost ensure the demise of our country.
How will that benefit our country?
And sputum, it’s disgusting, but I am like a sputum machine 24./7. That seems to be just about all my body produces anymore…sputum. .WTF….Over?
A sputum culture is a test to detect and identify bacteria or fungi (plural of fungus) that are infecting the lungs or breathing passages. Sputum is a thick fluid produced in the lungs and in the airways leading to the lungs.
http://www.medicaldaily.com/coughing-phlegm-what-color-your-sputum-says-about-your-health-351774
Hmmmmm. this whole conversation (and that link) is making me feel a little bit queasy and is definitely going to make it harder for me to pick up babes at the senior citizen center even after the movie comes out, even though I do have a wallet full of senior citizen discount cards and I am a big spender with the allowance my wife gives me.
I am really starting to miss that little voice in my head that used to keep from saying or writing whatever pops into my head.
Actually…I have already lived several lifetimes, or at least if feels that way and it was one hell-of-a-ride. It was an E Ticket ride combined with Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride all in one. I really do feel sorry for everyone that is never going to be able to do the things I have done and see the things I have seen. Once again to the America people…thank you.
You have a hardworking beautiful wife and you have great times…I cannot imagine this earth minus YOU so really…you can live several lifetimes…but I like to think you will be here a long long long time…go play ball…or something…when you talk or type like this I say “tune YOU out” because he is dancing to a shitty tune today—LIFE is so freaking great several times over that I cannot imagine to think of our lives without GARY
Gee…Joy, I don’t know what so say other than to say I will go ahead and stick around as long as I can.
I really am thinking about blogging some more about this smoke inhalation thing, I think the USFS and MEDC have really missed all of the warning signs and opportunities to make a difference for a few decades now.
My situation was well known by everybody who either knew me or knew of me back in the day and I was probably the worst case in Region 3 but I was not the only one.
And gee whiz, you just kicked RTS’s ass with this comment, I am glad I am not on your shit list right now. OMG.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-341684
Gary,
Kicked his ass? Hardly.
It’s only fair to post the RTS reply to which Joy did not reply.
“Joy,
So it’s okay to use God’s name in vain (GD this or that, Jesus f**king Christ, etc.) but it’s NOT okay to talk about God?
What law states that someone is not allowed to talk about God?
Do you consider talking about God to be the same as ‘forcing religion’ on someone or spreading ‘their brand of religion’?”
I AM WHAT I AM my father use to say to me.
My reply to RTS since he feels like he does on faith sharing…Allah will help those who help Him.
Now I could be telling you that as my reply out of GET THE POINT humor or maybe out of fear because if you go to salomotic you can see how many mosques are in our own America and this is the faith that murdered a lot I known in the name of Him and or how about the South Phoenix cop who got an award the same day as my dad as an officer but it was the day I learned he was one of the ten men in a dark alley who stuffed me. In a dumpster in 1988 left me to die with a concrete parking space divider but that officer was doing that for his religious beliefs too…hmm..the spreading of any word or Word must be done in a healthy way by healthy minded folks because too many in authority sleep amongst their congregations… So there is your answer. and in know there is a very mixed up cultural world out there so instead of saying yeah its good to have faith sharing I rather talk to my Father and have a personal relationship asking Him and praising Him and fearing Him not man….. Where is mine down below….my answer…your turn…also remember with Marti Reed not here and being the only female and I can be emotional and irrational I waited for Him to say what I need to say…The healthy minded should not be directing or getting all philoshical… They should freely be given the not so blessed with the proper tools to gain healthy ways mind body and soul so the way you react RTS to Gary saying its OK to say His name in vain but you can’t spread the Word…one who is healthy would not point fingers with questions but step up to the plate and lead with hope encouraging optimism… Questions like you said can lead to more negative paths than good ones… Now with that all being said I love God…He loves me and from that it depends how much time Him and I build together that I can be of any service to another…so if my Bible is dusty…pretty much means my life us rusty…than if you see others in that spot …simple prayer is all tgatbis needed not is itnok to say His name in vain? And feel your question needed my reply now you got a God guided one..
Got a little taste of that agent orange fire retardant Gary. Well just about every Uranium miner I knew is already dead from lung cancer or COPD and smoking helped. I have the COPD diagnosis and never was a smoker. Hell Joy and Norb left me behind on their hike up the Weavers. People keep dumping the chemicals and we reap the results.
Joy says, (but she is having trouble posting this from her cell phone).
Godisnowhere.
Said it here before…its how you read it… God is now here or god is nowhere… Gary I will share to you God is in everything but that day it was not of His hands but man made errors that was present and RTS always come to defense to Willis and I stand behind Willis too…he made choices through this all that may not satisfy man but God cloaks us all not those who seek him because listening to thousands of folks since I was little and how they come to have a relationship with Him..they were not seeking…my best friend is over 100 and she always said a person coat says a lot about themselves and I thought what..they are poor or not or they keep with fads..what.. But she meant the cloak of Spirit…RTS has his opinion but from the purity of Christianity one is not to defend or judge or do what he is doing but even RTS pop could tell you if he was still amongst the earth..RTS is rts..even his pops couldn’t curve him to comprehend the purity of each soul…instead he gets locked on ideals and ideas and RTS could use a moment to get Gary has every right to have his way of thoughts
Gary,
You posted: “I think I summed it up very well when I told John Dougherty the following in his article …,
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/yarnell-hill-fire-the-granite-mountain-hotshots-never-shouldve-been-deployed-mounting-evidence-shows-6656696
“If you accept that this horrific catastrophe — unprecedented in the history of hotshots — is because God had a different plan for those 19 men, THEN YOU’RE NOT GOING TO GO BEYOND GOD’S WILL FOR CAUSAL FACTORS, AND THAT MEANS YOU’RE GOING TO LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN FOR THIS TO HAPPEN AGAIN,” says Gary Olson, a former superintendent of Arizona’s Happy Jack Hotshots, founder of the Santa Fe Hotshots, …” (EMPHASIS ADDED).
WRONG! Since July 1, 2013, I have and I will continue to support Darrel Willis’ claim that God had a different plan for those men that fateful day AND also ‘TO GO BEYOND GOD’S WILL [SEARCHING] FOR CASUAL FACTORS’ in my journey to do research all that I can to discover the causes, and reasons regarding the YH Fire Human Factors that influenced the deaths of the 19 GMHS on 30 June 2013.
The search for the truth regarding the Human Factors is an uphill struggle indeed, with countless roadblocks and other struggles. Human Factors has been called an ‘imperfect science’ by some, however, it must be researched because that is what gets WFF’s and others into life-or-death predicaments in hazardous wildland fire situations.
One must research aviation Human Factors papers to seek answers since there is such a lack of it in the WF world.
This is an amazing paper written in 1998 that basically comes very close to summing up why the YH Fire fatalities occurred when they continued to support their dangerous and faulty plan to leave their SZ.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20020063485.pdf
Then, there is that feigned desire by some to ‘search for the truth.’
From Amanda Marsh’s own PUBLIC “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighter’s” Facebook page. “I want the Yarnell Hill Fire to be studied for the truth of what happened so that future fighters can learn.”
“Amanda Marsh posted: “I WANT THE YARNELL HILL FIRE TO BE STUDIED FOR THE TRUTH OF WHAT HAPPENED SO THAT FUTURE [FIRE] FIGHTERS CAN LEARN. (EMPHASIS)
She posted: “I ask that when the Granite Mountain Hotshots are discussed it is done with kindness and sensitivity. I want the Yarnell Hill Fire to be studied for the truth of what happened so that future fighters can learn. THERE IS TRUTH AND THERE ARE LIES. I AM FINE WITH THE TRUTH. The lies truly break my heart.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
That may be what she posted on her Facebook page, however, the reality of the situation is entirely different. I empathize with her regarding the lies breaking her heart. The truth to those that do not or will not believe it can be very painful, and so, It’s easier to take the easy way out and call it lies.
Syndicated columnist Thomas Sowell posted: ‘When you want to help people, you tell them the truth. When you want to help yourself, you tell them what they want to hear.’
Do the facts not matter to those who are denouncing those that attempt to expose the truth to those that claim to want it? Does the actual fate of future WFF’s they supposedly want to help not matter to them, as much as their symbolic presence on public forums?
From the time since the YH Fire and SAIR, those that have claimed to seek and/or speak the truth (e.g. alleged ‘FACTUAL’ Investigation Report) have instead actually sought to suppress the very concept of the truth as it relates to the Human Factors that led to the the GMHS’ deaths with these conclusions.
The SAIR claimed ‘The Team found no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.’ Stated in the affirmative: they did everything right, yet 19 men died.
Not f**king possible”
The painful farce of calling the WFF’s decisions and actions on 30 June 2013 “no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol” shows how far the ‘Powers That Be’ would go to disguise, downplay and outright lie about WHY these deaths occurred. and It fed the pretense that the tried-and-trued Basic WFF Rules didn’t work and don’t work, and so there were no new lessons to learn.
It’s actually more like: Suppress the truth; oppress, discredit, and smear those that discover it and attempt to expose the truth; and kill the messenger(s) that would oppose the Party Line. Then others will see what happens to those that attempt to seek the truth and will instead avoid it, because they don’t want the same abuse by the Don’t Really Want To Know The Truth crowd.
I do not believe in God. Period…
Call me an aetheist or a heathen, I don’t care. I do not believe that an “ever loving God would allow such pain on his followers…
May I rot in purgatory forever for posting that but I do not care…
Like they say “Go ahead, send me to hell, I will just figure out a burn off operation to put it out”..,
Rocksteady,
Its still a free country. You’re entitled to your own beliefs.
Here’s a link that will much better than I can, explain a cogent answer to your questions and doubts about a loving God allowing bad things.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html
And ‘purgatory’ is a Roman Catholic construct based on multiple pagan beliefs. Most Catholics no longer believe in it, but the RC Church doctrine still strongly holds that belief.
It’s so the Catholic believers can ‘buy’ their way into heaven through Sunday Masses, also based on paganism.
No comment on being able to burn your way out of or extinguish the flames of Hell.
He’s Canadian, although that’s a free country as well.
And yes, I think Amanda Marsh and others like her are only interested in the truth they want to hear.
I don’t drink the religious Kool -Aid.
I did go to the link RTS and still am a non believer
…
I am all about tangible evidence…
Sort of like Sasquatch, show me PROOF of their existence (bodies, good video, some tangible evidence)…
I don’t believe in ghosts, UFO’s, Aliens or anything else until it can be proven..,
Rocksteady,
I do not drink the religious Kool -Aid either. I believe in God because of faith and things I’ve experienced. Things have occurred in our lives that have no possible explanation other than God
I’m glad you went to the link I posted and it’s okay that you are still a .non believer. It took me years.
You posted: “I am all about tangible evidence” I can understand that.
There is a verses in Romans 1:19-21, that talks about that.
“For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.…”
I too don’t believe in ghosts, UFO’s, Aliens, and even more … .evolution, the Big Bang Theory, Global Warming, or anything else until it can be proven.
I don’t know if it’s possible to “prove” that God. exists. I believe that God exists, and we can know that, we can give reasons, and those reasons amount to proof, but not scientific proof, except in an unusually broad sense.
Rock Steady–more atheists than Christians will make it to heaven–they probably wont want to stay there though–I for one don’t handle bullshit too well. Dying ain’t so bad, when I was on life support it was damn good being on the plane of the dead–
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 7, 2016 at 9:50 pm
>> Joy A. Collura asked…
>>
>> So when Pat McCarty went structural in 2010 and now an actor…
>> did Clayton fill his shoes as squad boss at that time?
>>
>> http://www.prescott-az.gov/_d/agendas/2010-05-25_2613_min.pdf
Based on the content of that link, and the ‘minutes’ of that Prescott City Council meeting… the answer seems to be ‘yes’.
At THAT meeting ( held on May 25, 2010 ), Pat McCarty’s ‘move’ from being a ‘Squad Leader’ with the Granite Moutain Hotshots over to the ‘structural’ fire department was approved… and then so was Clayton Whitted’s ‘move up’ to ‘Squad Leader’, as well as then either Phillip Maldonado’s and/or Austin Mork’s ‘move up’ to replace the ‘Senior Wildland Firefighter’ job now also being ‘vacated’ by moving Whitted to
‘Squad Leader’.
From the ‘minutes’ of that May 25, 2010 Prescott City Council meeting…
————————————————————-
PRESCOTT CITY COUNCIL
SPECIAL MEETING
TUESDAY, MAY 25, 2010
PRESCOTT, ARIZONA
MINUTES of the Prescott City Council Workshop held on May 25, 2010 in the City Hall Council Chambers, 201 South Cortez, Prescott, Arizona
Mr. Bates introduced the following people:
– Pat McCarty previously held the position of Squad Leader in the Wildland Division and was appointed to the new position of Structure Firefighter.
– Clayton Whitted promoted from Wildland Firefighter to Squad Leader
– Phillip Maldonado promoted from Seasonal Wildland Firefighter to Senior Wildland Firefighter
– Austin Mork promoted from Seasonal Wildland Firefighter to Senior Wildland Firefighter
————————————————————-
According to an interview that Pat McCarty did with NBC News back on May 22, 2014, McCarty left the ‘Granite Mountain’ crew ( in 2010 ) to (quote) “start a family”…
NBC News
Article Title: Hotshots Return to Arizona a Year After Yarnell Hill Wildfires
Published: May 22, 2014 – By Alex Johnson
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/western-wildfires/hotshots-return-arizona-year-after-yarnell-hill-wildfires-n111576
—————————————————————————————–
Hotshot crews are the cream of the crop, recruited from other fire agencies to staff elite teams that take on the toughest, most dangerous assignments.
“I would relate it to special operations in the military branch,” said Pat McCarty, a former Granite Mountain Hotshot who left the unit before last year’s deadly fire to start a family.
“You’re sleeping in the dirt. You’re eating in the dirt. Everything you do is in the dirt,” all while lugging heavy equipment in packs that weigh as much as 70 pounds, McCarty said Wednesday.
“It’s the most intense experience.”
McCarty detailed the harrowing life of a Hotshot at a hearing of the board of the Prescott Public Safety Personnel Retirement System transcribed by the local Prescott ENews website.
The board is considering a request from Juliann Ashcraft, the widow of one of the Granite Mountain Hotshots who died last year, for full survivor and retirement benefits even though her husband was a seasonal employee — that is, one who worked only during the height of wildfire season.
Still, McCarty, the former Hotshot, said Wednesday that his assignment with the Granite Mountain unit was “one of the most gratifying things I’ve ever done in my life.”
——————————————————————————————
Due to the ‘two links per message’ rule… see the ‘Next Reply’ for how Pat MaCarty probably first got involved with “The MOVIE” thing…
( Continued Next ‘Reply’ )…
** Pat McCarty was in the original GQ “No Exit” article…
Pat McCarty’s connection to the ‘movie’ probably began when he was one of the featured ‘interviewees’ in that original Sean Flynn GQ Magazine article entitled “No Exit”, which the original ‘movie’ was ( supposedly ) based on.
From that original GQ “No Exit” article… by Sean Flynn…
Published in 2013 by the ‘Conde Nast’ Entertainment Group.
http://www.gq.com/long-form/no-exit
—————————————————————————————
That’s why Pat McCarty signed on in the spring of ’05—to travel. “I was going to get to see places in this country most people never see,” he says. In five seasons—he transferred to the city side of the Prescott Fire Department in 2010—he fought wildfires in every state west of the Mississippi and most of the Southeast.
And he did see things most people will never see, spectacular and wondrous things, made even more so by how hard he labored to see them.
“You’re working your balls off all day with nineteen other guys, they’re all as miserable as you are, you’re cutting fire lines all day,” he says. And at the end of one of those days, you’ll cut a line that ties in with another on the north rim of the Grand Canyon, and then you’ll sit on the edge, legs dangling. The sky will be tangerine and persimmon to the west, and an atmospheric inversion will trap all the smoke in the canyon below, so you will see only gray until, every few minutes, a smoldering log will break loose and crash into the depths and explode like fireworks.
“And it’s the most beautiful thing,” McCarty says, “you’ve ever seen in your life.”
—————————————————————————————
The ‘Conde Naste’ entertainment group ( which owns GQ magazine ), already had this thing going where ‘articles’ they would publish in their various eZines would find their way to being made into MOVIES… and that’s how this whole “No Exit” movie thing got started.
The ‘Conde Naste’ group thought they would just ‘rinse and repeat’ and try to turn that GQ article into another ‘movie’.
But what eventually happened was that author ‘Sean Flynn’ himself, and his original article, got ‘thrown under the bus’ as the whole MOVIE project went out for investment, and other producers got involved ( it happens ).
They got rid of ‘Sean Flynn’ as one of he ‘authors’ ( and the title “No Exit” right along with him )… and now the actual in-production MOVIE only lists screenwriters Ken Nolan ( Blackhawk Down ) and Eric Warren Singer ( American Hustle ).
But Pat MaCarty was already ‘known’ to the original ‘Conde Naste’ entertainment group as a former GM Hotshot and Squad Leader.
So regardless of eventually throwing original GQ author ‘Sean Flynn’ and his ‘No Exit’ article under the bus… the ‘Conde Naste Entertainment’ group is still backing the movie and they just ‘added’ ‘Black Label Media’ and ‘Di Bonavetura Pictures’ as fellow ‘producers.
Pat MaCarty has his own PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ page, and he’s been ‘updating’ it since he got involved with the movie.
That Pat MaCarty ‘Instagram’ page is HERE…
azelkhunter ( Arizona Elk Hunter ) – Pat McCarty’s Instagram page
https://www.instagram.com/azelkhunter/
In one of his latest photos and the comments being left… we see actor Josh Brolin himself telling Pat McCarty that he is the PRIMARY influence on whatever the movie is going to show about actually ‘being’ a Hotshot.
See the next ‘Reply’ for a link to that recent posting…
Again… Pat McCarty’s PUBLIC Instagram page is here…
azelkhunter ( Arizona Elk Hunter ) – Pat McCarty’s Instagram page
https://www.instagram.com/azelkhunter/
He posted the following photo to his PUBLIC Instagram page just YESTERDAY.
It shows one of the other actors playing one of the other GM Hotshots backlit by the sun and walking along ( carring a chainsaw )…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHln3zZAAHx/?taken-by=azelkhunter
The two comments left on this photo posted YESTERDAY come from actor Josh Brolin himself, and former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch, who has ALSO been hired to be in the movie and actually has ‘Billing’ in the cast list as playing his old friend and deceased GM Hotshot Garrett Zuppiger.
joshbrolin – Actor Josh Brolin’s Instagram ‘handle’
bunchofgrams – Brandon Bunch’s Instagram ‘handle’.
——————————————————-
azelkhunter ( Pat McCarty )
These guys have put a lot of work into getting this film correct and accurate to represent all hotshots with integrity and passion. Very happy with where we are and how they have all done. Couldn’t be more proud to work with these guys. #granitemountain #GMIHC #granitemountainhotshots
joshbrolin ( Actor Josh Brolin )
My brother, if it wasn’t for you, this wouldn’t be what it is.
You are the heart of this hopeful manifestation.
#respectfully
bunchofgrams ( Brandon Bunch )
Pat you are the man. Thanks for your hard work dude.
——————————————————-
So there is actor Josh Brolin himself saying ( to Pat McCarty ) that he is not just some ‘consultant’ on this ‘Granite Mountain Movie’ thing. Brolin himself is now calling McCarty the HEART of the ‘thing’, and that whatever representation is made by the movie of what being a Hotshot is like will be mostly coming from this McCarty guy.
Interesting.
And in the following VIDEO posted by former-GM-Hotshot-turned-actor Pat McCarty… we see one of the only confirmations of an actual SCENE that was actually being filmed for the movie.
In this video… Pat McCarty and fellow former-GM-turned-actor Brandon Bunch are ‘dropping’ a tree that looks like it’s supposed to be a ‘fake’ lightning strike ( toad ).
We know they were actually FILMING this scene because at the end of McCarty’s video clip, after the tree hits the ground, we hear any number of people in the background yelling CUT!…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHPvICcgyVN/?taken-by=azelkhunter
Pay attention to all the dead standing trees in the right background from insects or disease.
And here’s an inciweb link for a beetle killed timber stand photo on the Beaver Creek Fire (Routt NF – CO)
http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/photograph/4797/33/53342/
These are the conditions of much of our timbered wildlands in the Western US.
Woody smiles.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
July 9, 2016 at 6:39 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Pay attention to all the dead standing trees in the
>> right background from insects or disease.
Yes. That ‘Valles Caldera’ area where they are filming has been ‘hard hit’ by both infestations AND bad wildfires in the not-so distant past.
Such as… the June 2011 Las Conchas Wildfire ( which burned 93,000+ acres in that area )… and the May 2000, Cerro Grande fire… which was that one that started as an escaped prescribed fire and ended up burning 47,000 acres and destroying over 280 homes in the Los Alamos and Valles Caldera area(s).
It’s actually hard to tell which trees are ‘fire kill’ and which are ‘bug kill’ out there… as this person discovered…
http://tomtrek.com/valles-caldera-los-alamos-and-abiquiu/
9th photo down on the page…
CAPTION: “Thought these were beetle-kill, but it’s due to a 2011 fire ( Las Conchas Wildfire ) that burned 30,000 acres here…”
The Daily Mail
Article Title: Firemen fight to isolate 20,000 barrels of nuclear waste at Los Alamos plant as blaze threatens to become largest in New Mexico state history
Published: 12:28 EST, 2 July 2011
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008649/Los-Alamos-wildfire-Residents-flee-firefighters-battle-blaze-near-nuclear-complex.html
——————————————————————–
The Las Conchas Fire has charred nearly 93,000 acres of thick pine woodlands on the slopes of the Jemez Mountains ( and the Valles Caldera ) since erupting on Sunday near the Los Alamos National Laboratory.
——————————————————————–
( Continued next Reply due to ‘2 link limit’ )…
( Continued from previous ‘Reply’ )…
4th photo down on that “Daily Mail’ news article page…
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/01/article-2008649-0CCF811F00000578-859_634x436.jpg
Photo Caption: Smoke from what will almost certainly be the state’s largest ever wildfire rises behind the The Valles Caldera National Preserve near Los Alamos.
What you are seeing in that photo is actually a ‘view’ from the middle of the ‘Valles Caldera’ and back towards the area where the ‘Granite Mountain’ movie people are now actually filming.
A LOT of trees burned around there back in 2011.
Also…
Check out this photo of actor James Badge Dale, all dressed up as ‘Jesse Steed’, observing the ‘Valles Caldera’ landscape there on the south slope of Mt. Pajarito, where they have been doing a lot of filming…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BG5mk4cjxkf/?taken-by=black_label_media
There are a LOT of ‘dead trees’ there in the background.
Hard to tell if THEY are ‘bug kill’, or from the 2011 Las Conchas fire, but that’s pretty much what most of the ‘landscape’ out there actually looks like.
BTW: The IMDB page for the movie is still not ‘admitting’ that actor James Badge Dale is playing ‘Jesse Steed’… but this photo is more secondary proof that he is ( along with some other photos they have posted on social media sites ). Actor James Badge Dale is the only actor in those photos ( other than James Brolin, playing Marsh ) seen wearing a RED Helmet.
small world they are filming this movie in Sonny’s old stomping grounds…he may say “hey, Joy that is the spot my dad and I put out the lightning strike fire…” and I know because I went to these spots first hand…
Sonny took me to this place in 2012-his old stomping areas–same time we went to pond in NM by Mule Creek…Sonny has ALOT of H IS T O R Y in NM—
he got his humor from his pops—Sonny and I enjoy Carl…Clayton’s pops—great company…
WTKTT said “And that’s what we have occurring with the ongoing YH Fire investigation regarding Leadership and Human Factors.”
And I say, FYI, I got around just now to writing a couple of paragraphs specific to the Yarnell Hill Fire overhead team and Darrell Willis.
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
So…please click early and click often and please send this link to your friends and everyone else on your mailing list and ask them to do the same.
From…
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
The cumulative decisions made by the Yarnell Hill Fire Overhead Team were staggering in their level of sheer incompetency and gross negligence.
Which is EXACTLY what the investigators for the Arizona Department of Safety and Health ( who are professionals at investigating ‘workplace’ accidents and fatalities ) concluded… and they then made ‘history’ themselves by issuing the MAXIMUM citations and fines that they are even allowed to, by law.
http://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131203state-forestry-division-fined-willful-serious-violations.html
Published: Thu Dec 5, 2013 12:47 AM
———————————————————————-
Arizona forestry officials knowingly disregarded wildfire-planning rules, sent crews into hazardous areas without adequate safety provisions and then failed to withdraw 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots as the Yarnell Hill Fire raged toward them last summer, a state safety commission ruled Wednesday.
Citing the Arizona State Forestry Division’s willful and serious safety violations during its handling of the fatal blaze, the Industrial Commission of Arizona unanimously issued $559,000 in fines and penalties. That includes $25,000 to each firefighter’s family or estate.
The sanctions were based on a scathing report issued Wednesday by workplace-safety investigators, who found multiple infractions.
The commission assessed a $70,000 fine against the Forestry Division, plus $25,000 per deceased firefighter, under that citation. The fine represents the maximum amount allowable for a “willful” violation. The term does not connote malicious intent, but reflects knowing negligence.
———————————————————————-
Arizona Forestry might have been able to play enough ‘legal games’ to overwhelm family attorney Patrick McGroder and get him ( and the legitimate ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits ) ‘off the playing field’… but they can’t ‘erase’ the actual ADOSH report and its findings.
The only we still do NOT know is the FULL length and breadth and full DETAILS of the ‘bad decision making’ that day which left 19 men dead on the floor of a fuel-filled blind box canyon.
I believe ALL of those ‘details’ will ’emerge’, sooner or later.
History has a way of making sure they DO, when it comes to ‘National Historic Tragedies’.
Gary,
On your website you posted: “Or as former Prescott Fire Department Wildlands Division Chief Darrell Willis has proclaimed, “It was just one of those things that happened. You can call it an accident. I just say that God had a different plan for that crew at this time”, and I call pure and unadulterated BULLSHIT on that entire concept! Even though I can sincerely say I believe in God just as much as wannabe [Pastor] Darrell Willis does. God wasn’t on the Godforsaken Yarnell Hill Fire, I believe the Great Creator was busy elsewhere on June 30, 2013, helping those who help themselves.”
I have always agreed with Willis’ statement about God having a different plan for those men that day. Everything happens because God allows it.
I’m going to take issue with a few of the other statements below.
You posted: “God wasn’t on the Godforsaken Yarnell Hill Fire.” Sure He was on the YH Fire . God is Omnipresent, He is everywhere.
Here’s a link from the website allaboutgod.com with many Bible verses verifying His Omnipresence. There are many others.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/god-is-omnipresent-faq.htm
You posted: “I believe the Great Creator was busy elsewhere on June 30, 2013, helping those who help themselves.” You are free to believe whatever you want to believe but that is nowhere at all in The Bible, God’s Word.
The genesis of that statement ostensibly came out of Greek mythology in the fifth century before Jesus Christ. Various philosophers over the next two-and-a-half millennia repeated the unbiblical phrase. The most notable one in 1736, when Ben Franklin popularized it in Poor Richard’s Almanac, which basically ensured the statement a permanent place in American thought.
Clarification to the above: “The Great Creator [God] was … helping those who help themselves.”
You are free to believe what you want, however, the statement that God helps those who help themselves is nowhere in the Bible.
The genesis of that statement ostensibly came out of Greek mythology in the fifth century before Jesus Christ. Various philosophers over the next two-and-a-half millennia repeated the unbiblical phrase. The most notable one in 1736, when Ben Franklin popularized it in Poor Richard’s Almanac, which basically ensured the statement a permanent place in American thought.
You and I have had this discussion before (more or less) and even though we have far more in common than we do in differences…this is just one of those things we disagree on.
As far as my quote goes…I had no idea where that came from and I did not mean to imply it came from the Bible.
Thank you for reading my web page, I need the hits to make this page come up when people search for the key words. And for lots of reasons, I am trying to keep it relatively short and simple for those outsiders who may randomly click on it without getting into a lot of explanations or nuances.
I think I summed it up very well when I told John Dougherty the following in his article you can read here,
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/yarnell-hill-fire-the-granite-mountain-hotshots-never-shouldve-been-deployed-mounting-evidence-shows-6656696
But…”The voice of what actually happened, we’ll never know,” Willis says. “We’re not going to have that information from [the dead men].”
Willis continues, “It was just one of those things that happened. You can call it an accident. I just say that God had a different plan for that crew at this time.”
Invocation of a spiritual cause for the hotshots’ deaths has triggered sharp criticism from former wildland firefighters interviewed for this story.
“If you accept that this horrific catastrophe — unprecedented in the history of hotshots — is because God had a different plan for those 19 men, then you’re not going to go beyond God’s will for causal factors, and that means you’re going to leave the door open for this to happen again,” says Gary Olson, a former superintendent of Arizona’s Happy Jack Hotshots, founder of the Santa Fe Hotshots, and, later, a U.S. Bureau of Land Management criminal investigator.
I interpreted what Willis way saying as a big cop out. “We will just never know because they are dead and that’s the way God wanted it.” That may not be what he meant, but that is what he said.
“There is nothing to see here…move along. This just couldn’t be helped.” Which is what I am saying BULLSHIT to, not Willis’ belief in God or his interpretation of how God works in our daily lives.
I will go and try to make that clear on my web page.
OK…I tried to clear that up.
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
Joy said, “I will catch up on my IM reading but boy—was floored by Gary’s new link—wow! man, harsh. I shook my head when I clicked on it—never expected that at all.”
And I do keep editing it, so if you haven’t read it for awhile, please click on it again…and again.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
And I say, Yes, it is harsh. But the question is…”Is it true?”
And you say?
Gary Olson says ”Is it true?”
And you say?
MY REPLY- first off it felt good to have my court case be replaced; the link is gone—
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html than I learned the organizational chart—
YOU are above me and for that I will reply to you… 🙂
First thought when I got to link was why was Dave’s pic used on such a topic? We hiked that guy and it seems undeserving to tie his artistic fire photo to that topic…you agree???— I know it was an AZCENTRAL pic …but let’s not give that paper any kind of royalties OR CREDIT OR FACE TIME— plus its an overused photo— so for that I think why that pic except it IS one of the top pics taken of the YHF- so I get that-
Now the pic of the couple- again poor choice because if you have a beef with Marsh’s leadership but as you know I do not like to discuss private or public this topic because I learned long ago it is a sensitive topic that hurt others’ feelings…”my online actions”…SO I STAY OUT…
I was almost not going to reply because it would mean I am either “enabling/engaging” as others told me “privately” but I would like you to break it down…starting with the title:
The Big Lie.
What is the BIG LIE?
I TRULY THINK PEOPLE JUST HAVE DIVERSE PECEPTIONS ON THE YHF…
like here I have been for years documenting the YHF but Denise Roggio asked me recently are you conspirator when I am just trying to get facts and documents to properly assess it…
See
different perception.
My family and even Sonny wish I could walk 100% away from the fire because there is not a moment I am trying to think where else will a public document lead me to better clarity…
I will in CAPS below break down your link content and try and figure out why I thought it was harsh in CAPS..I think it was like the title and photo upfront- you could do contracted title/photo work for Dougherty—
Gary’s site said in quotes:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it,
people will eventually come to believe it.”
I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT. TRUTH WORKS IT WAY TO THE SURFACE, I THINK PAUSES OR DELAYS ALWAYS RED FLAGS ME…UNLESS AGING AND GETTING FORGETFUL…ALSO SOME QUESTIONS EVOKE IMMEDIATE REPLIES BUT SOME HAVE TO “THINK” HOW THEY HAVE TO PRESENT IT PUBLICLY…BUT IF YOU ASK “DETAIL/DIRECT” QUESTION AND THEY PAUSE THAN YOU HAVE TO WONDER…SO DELAYS NEED TO BE FOUND IF ITS APPROPRIATE FOR QUESTION AT HAND AND WHY I AM ANSWERING YOUR QUESTION AS SOON AS I SAW VS PASSING BY IT OR IGNORING IT…SOMEONE OF YOUR SOLID BACKGROUND ASKS ME A QUESTION LIKE THAT THAN YOU DESERVE MY REPLY…I WANT US TO BE CONNECTED AND NOT DISCONNECTED EVEN THOUGH YOU HIT A TOPIC I TRY TO STAY AWAY FROM…YOU DO REMEMBER I WAS IN A COURT ROOM WITH ONE OF THE PEOPLE FROM THAT SITE…AND I AM AT PEACE WITH IT NOWADAYS…THE BODY IS AMAZING THING…THIN OR NOT…YOU CAN NAB A LIAR WHEN YOU WATCH THEIR BODY MOVEMENTS AND SINCE YOU CANNOT SEE MY BODY MOVEMENTS I AM TELLING YOU I SHOOK MY HEAD THINKING…UGH WHEN I WENT TO THE LINK…AND BY ME DESCRIBING MY ACTIONS I HOPE YOU CAN SEE MY PURE HONESTY EVEN THOUGH YOU CANNOT SEE ME BUT IT IS FUNNY BECAUSE AS I FIRST SAW IT I THOUGHT OF HOLLY NEILL IN RECENT TIMES WHEN IN PERSON SHE SAID TO ME THAT MAYBE PEOPLE GOT THE NEGATIVITY/FEAR OF ME OR SONNY FROM MY VERY OWN PHOTO PAGES AND I THOUGHT THAT IS A “COP OUT” IN A SENSE BECAUSE REALITY IS THAT IS MY PRIVATE PAGE FOR FAMILY AND FRIENDS THAN SONNY TOLD JOANNA DODDER JOY HAS PHOTOS (SUMMER 2013) AND LINK WAS SHARED OVER TIME TO PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO VIEW PHOTOS TO GET A SENSE OF THE FIRE AND SUCH BUT WHY WOULD I OMIT MY OWN PRIVATE PICS JUST TO APPEASE THE WORLD—THAT “IS” WHO I AM —LET THE PEOPLE JUDGE IF THEY MUST; I DO NOT CARE—BUT TO JUDGE ME AS BEING SCARY OR FEARFUL BASED ON THAT PAGE—HORSESHIT—YOU WANT SCARY— I CAN INTRODUCE YOU TO ONE I WATCHED DO BAD STUFF AND WENT TO PRISON AND IS OUT ALREADY —A SERIAL KILLER—THAT PERSON IS SCARY BECAUSE SHE IS CHARISMATIC AND IS PROBABLY IN ONE OF YOUR CHURCHES NOW—AND YOU KNOW WHAT I HAVE BEEN CORRESPONDING WITH ONE OF SONNY’S EX-WIVE’S KIDS AND IT HELPED ME ALOT BECAUSE THAT WAS 20-30 YEARS AGO THAT MARRIAGE SO IT HELPED ME REALIZE SONNY IS WHO HE IS AND I AM DIFFERENT THAN HIM BUT THAT DOES NOT EQUAL NEGATIVISM JUST DIFFERENCES AND THAT IS `100% OKAY SO THAN I BEGAN TO SEE YOUR LINK AS NOT A NEGATIVE AND I THOUGHT ARE YOU TRYING TO BRAINWASH YOURSELF JOY TO “BELIEVE” A BELIEF AND I SAY NO—GARY WOULD NEVER PLACE OUT SOMETHING SO HEAVY UNLESS HE WAS LIKE BOB HAS SAID BEFORE “OFF HIS MEDS” OR HE SERIOUSLY SEES THE ENTIRE PACKAGE…SO FOR THAT I WILL TAKE THE TIME AND READ THE LINK FULLY–K. WHERE BEFORE I SAW PIC AND TITLE AND BLINDED MY EYES WITH MY RIGHT HAND AND QUICKLY CLICKED OFF THERE…
Joseph Goebbels, Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda
Is the truth about what happened to the Granite Mountain Hotshots on the Yarnell Hill Fire important? YES…BEEN TRYING FOR YEARS GARY
To me it is ME TOO
and I have appointed myself as an
advocate and spokesperson for our dead 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots, which includes Eric Marsh. I HAVE JUST TRIED TO GATHER DOCUMENTED INFORMATION TO MAKE SENSE OF IT ALL— BUT I AM NOT A SPOKESPERSON BUT BEEN KNOWN TO BE OUTSPOKEN…IT SHOULD OF BEEN A PRIORITY BUT IT WAS NOT TO MANY I FELT IT SHOULD OF BEEN…
Why? Because as Edmund Burke said, “Those who
don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.” VERY TRUE GARY….BUT IN MY LIFETIME I AM WATCHING MORE AND MORE MAKING THEIR “OWN” HISTORY…WHICH DOES NOT EQUAL REAL TIME REALITY.
This is much worse than simply failing to learn the lessons of wildland firefighting history because it guarantees the same tragedy will happen again, VERY TRUE.
again…and again. TRUE. TRUE.
Why am I so sure it will happen again? BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN FOR DECADES IF YOU LOOK AT OLD FIRES AND THIS ONE…NO CHANGES HAVE BEEN PROPERLY MADE BECAUSE INSTEAD OF LAYING IT ON THE LINE PURELY WE SEE MORE BRUSHING IT UNDER RUGS THAT NOW LOOKS LIKE HILLS HOW MUCH WAS BRUSHED UNDER THE RUG—OK MOUNTAINS NOT HILLS…
Because the horrible deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots on the Yarnell Hill Fire is actually
the third time in history the very same thing has happened to hotshot crews in the very same way for very similar reasons. There was the El Cariso
Hotshots on the Loop Fire of 1966, the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976 and now…the Granite Mountain Hotshots on the
Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013. Once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence and three times is a pattern. The deaths of the Prineville Hotshots on the South
Canyon Fire of 1994 were an outlier compared to all other hotshot deaths on the three previously mentioned disaster fires.
AMEN!
And although there have been dozens of disaster wildfires that have killed many hundreds of wildland firefighters, I am a student of only the Loop, the
Battlement Creek, the South Canyon and now the Yarnell Hill because those are the only wildfires that killed hotshots, TRUE, WHEN I LISTENED TO JIM ROTH AND HIS STORY OF LOSING HIS BROTHER ON STORM KING—“HOW MANY YEARS AGO WAS THAT??”…
Storm King Mountain™ (STORMKINGMTN . COM) IS HIS SITE…I ENJOYED THAT COUPLE ALOT…AND ONE OF THE TOP FOLKS HOLLY NEILL INTRODUCED ME TOO SUMMER 2014. TOP NOTCH FOLKS.
which is all I ever was (on the fire
line) or wanted to be. Not all wildland firefighting hand crews are designated as elite Type 1A hotshot crews..
.the best of the best. And in fact, only a very
small percentage qualify for this rating which included the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew. I HAVE MET ALOT OF FIREFIGHTERS SINCE 6-28-13 AND I HAVE TO STATE YOU ARE SPOT ON THERE…
The circumstances and the conditions surrounding the hotshot deaths on these other fires were nowhere near as shocking as those on the Yarnell Hill
Fire for too many reasons to discuss in this format. AGREED.
The inexplicable decisions made by Marsh on the Yarnell Hill Fire have left the wildland firefighting
community dumbfounded and turned upside down.
SO TO DATE- WHAT ARE THE RESOURCES AND SOURCES OF “DOCUMENTED” DECISIONS MARSH MADE ON 6-30-13 AND NOT BASING IT ON PRIOR THINKING OR PRIOR FIRES OR LISTENING TO JUST THE DOCUMENTED FACTS ON 6-30-13 WHAT ARE THESE DECISIONS HE MADE PERSONALLY AND SOLELY HIMSELF?
We know exactly why all other hotshots died, but even after all of this time has passed, wildland
firefighters are still searching for some logical explanation to understand why Marsh killed his crew other than…sometimes bad things happen to good
people. AGAIN…WHEN THERE IS SO MANY THAT WERE “ON THE FIRE” STATING TO ME THE HIKER THEY NUMBER ONE DID NOT EVEN KNOW MARSH WAS TRANSITIONED TO A NEW POSITION THAT DAY AND THEY ALL WERE FLOORED MYSTERIOUSLY HOW COME THEY WERE STILL IN THERE…WHAT KEPT THEM IN THERE THAT LONG AND AT LOCATION THEY WERE AT,,,SO THERE IS MISSING DETAILS THAT PEOPLE ON THE FIRE COULD HELP BRING CLARITY…VERSUS BASING IT SOLELY ON IT HAD TO BE HIM BECAUSE HE WAS “IN CHARGE” BECAUSE TOO MANY DID NOT EVEN KNOW HE WAS—WHAT I SAW FROM MARSH WAS A MOUNTAIN SCOUT ASSESSING AREAS OF THE WEAVERS LIKE A SUPER FAST SPEED OF A RABBIT…BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE DOCUMENTED AREAS NOT SOME HIGHER UPS LATER STATING THIS OR THAT OR THEY WOULD NOT JUST SIT THERE BEING FIREFIGHTERS AND GO RE-ENGAGE ???? FACTS. WHAT ARE THE STUFF THAT IS ACTUALLY PUBLIC THAT PLACES MARSH AS THAT SOLE PERSON WHO DID THAT VERSUS RTS SAYING MARSH WAS IN CHARGE…HOW DOES THAT WORK…VERBALLY…DOES MARSH SIGN A PAPER STATING HE TOOK OVER AS DIV Z??? WHERE IS IT AT THE “MOMENT” ON 6-30-13 THAT HAS SOME PHYSICAL DOCUMENT MARSH WAS OFFICIALLY TRANSITIONED TO A NEW ROLE AND STEED THAN BECAME THE BOSS BECAUSE I HEARD BY WAY TOO MANY THAT WHOLE TIME WAS CHAOTIC FROM YCSO DEPUTY STATING THAT TO FIREFIGHTERS TO DISPATCHERS—SO DURING CHAOS—PURE CHAOS WHERE IS THIS DOCUMENT THAT MARSH REALLY TRANSITIONED…
That explanation is unacceptable and is all the Serious Accident Investigation Team concluded in their Serious Accident Investigation Report, THEY FOLLOWED A DIFFERENT GUIDELINE AND IN IT THEY TOOK FACTS TO FORMULATE THEIR CONCLUSIONS BUT INDEED A NARRATIVE—
which reads like what it is…poorly written bureaucratic contradictory, deceptive, and disingenuous doublespeak. Or as former Prescott Fire Department
Wildlands Division Chief Darrell Willis has proclaimed, “God had a different plan for those men.” NO, GOD DID NOT HAVE ANOTHER PLAN…GOD HAS ONE PLAN AND THAT IS THE TRUTH WILL PREVAIL…
So sayeth I, Gary L. Olson, former U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighter (Prescott National Forest) hotshot crew b
oss (Happy Jack Interagency Hotshots, Coconino National Forest), hotshot crew founder YOU HAD TO KNOW FRED THEN— HE HAS BEEN IN THAT AREA LONG TIME…DID YOU SEE ANOTHER ALOT ON THE JOB?
and crew boss (Santa Fe Interagency Hotshots, Santa Fe Nation
al Forest), YOU SHOULD BE THERE ON THE MOVIE SET—SEEMS LIKE THEY ARE IN YOUR HOMETOWN…
Assistant District Fire Management Officer (Tesuque & Espanola Ranger Districts, Santa National Forest), Santa Fe National Forest Dispa
tcher, Zone Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator, Coconino County (Arizona) WHAT DECADE?
Deputy Sheriff, Santa Fe National Forest Chief Law Enforc
ement Officer and retired Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent (BLM New Mexico State Office, BLM Arizona State Office & USDI –
BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement and Security (1974 – 2006, Prescott, AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Santa Fe, NM, Phoenix,
AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Farmington, NM, Phoenix, AZ).WOW…LIKE I SAID SOMEONE WITH THOSE CREDENTIALS- IT DOES FLOOR ME HOW THE CHIEF BEN PALM DENIED YOU ACCESS BECAUSE I WAS TOLD BY STATE THAT THEY TAKE FIREFIGHTERS OUT THERE CURRENT AND RETIRED…SO STRANGE TO SEE THAT GARY…
God Bless America! YOU BET!
OKAY NOW THAT I READ IT ALL AND REPLIED…I STILL THINK CONTENT IS OKAY AND IT WAS TITLE AND PHOTOS THAT THREW ME OFF BUT SO RELIEVED THE COURT CASE RECORDINGS ARE HIDDEN BECAUSE A CONTRACTED CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR WE RECENTLY HIKED WAS GOING TO YOUR SITE AND I WAS LIKE UGH SO NOW HE CANNOT SEE THEM 🙂
CAPS below my reply:
On June 30, 2013, Eric Marsh ordered his crew,I HAVE HEARD THIS TOPIC FROM ALOT—EVEN PEOPLE OF THE HIGHEST QUALIFICATIONS TO ASSESS IT BUT I STILL THINK I SEE NO SUPPORTING INFORMATION FOR ME TO SOLIDIFY MY VIEW THERE TO AGREE OR NOT AGREE—
the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots to their deaths on the
Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona over the repeated objections of his assistant crew boss, Captain Jesse Steed who was
burned alive with 17 crewmen under his command because he ultimately followed Marsh’s orders.AGAIN I HAVE HEARD PEOPLE STATING THIS EVEN TO THE POINT A DR. TED PUTNAM WOULD NOT MIND BEING SUBPOENA ON THE THIS TOPIC SO THERE MUST BE SOME PRIVATE NOT YET SURFACED INFORMATION ON THIS TOPIC—
Eric Marsh’s inexcusable behavior resulted in arguablySTILL AWAITING THE DOCUMENTS TO BACK UP FOR THIS DAY 6-30-13 THIS HAPPENED—
the single worst loss of life of wildland firefighters (19) on a
fire in history and almost doubled the total number hotshots killed on all other wildfires (24) in the line of duty since
hotshot crews were first created by the U.S. Forest Service in southern California in 1946 – 1947. IT WAS THE SINGLE WORST LOSS OF LIFE AND IT SHOULD OF NEVER HAD TO HAPPEN—
What happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire was unimaginable…SO TRUE.
right up to the minute it became our reality and was the
single biggest blunder in wildland firefighting history that shook us to our very core.
Marsh’s blatant disregard for
almost all of the safety rules I LEARNED THAT FROM RTS AND BOB AND I UNDERSTAND IT NOW FULLY…. and guidelines SAME HERE…that were developed to keep wildland firefighters safe at the cost of
countless lives over more than 100 years in the United States were catastrophic and can’t be overstated. Marsh’s
reckless actions were completely off all of the known disaster fire charts and graphs and caused everyone to
recalibrate their own Disaster Fire O’Meters by redefining the very term itself.BUT AGAIN I SAW MARSH AWAY FROM THE MEN SO HOW MUCH DIRECT INVOLVEMENT DID MARSH HAVE FOR THE FINAL HOURS…WHO WAS INDIRECTLY SPEAKING TO BOTH MEN AND REALLY THE CORE OF IT ALL…WHAT IF IT WAS A GOOD DIRECTION ONE THOUGHT HE GAVE BUT IT WAS MISINTERPRETED ??? WHAT IF HE LATER MET UP — THERE IS TOO MANY GAPS TO FILL IN BEFORE IT CAN BE PROPERLY ASSESSED…
Unfortunately, “The Big Lie” is being perpetuated by the 100 Club of Arizona and the Eric Marsh Foundation for
Wildland Firefighters. I HAVE HEARD FROM GMHS LOVED ONES NOT THE BEST STUFF ON THE 100 CLUB OF ARIZONA SO I DO NOT KNOW THEIR AREA “YET”…I MIGHT FOCUS THERE AND DO SOME FOIAS THERE…BUT AS FOR THE EM FOUNDATION…I THINK IT IS SAFE TO ASSUME SHE WANTS HER HUSBAND TO BE REMEMBERED FOR THE POSITIVES NOT ANYTHING NEAR TO ANYTHING ELSE AND AS I SPEAK TO CERTAIN ACTORS—IT IS THE GENERAL ASSUMPTION THERE TOO THAT THE MOVIE IS A TRIBUTE—TO CAPTURE THE GOOD FROM THIS TRAGEDY…
Please contact them and ask them to stop telling lies about what happened on the Yarnell Hill
Fire to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew. WHERE DID THEY STATE LIES? HELP ME UNDERSTAND.
The lives of more wildland firefighters are at risk (.) PERIOD PLACED HERE. THERE WILL BE MORE IF THE ONES RUNNING IT DO NOT GET IT IS TIME FOR CHANGES…ALL THAT MONEY WENT TO BUILD A MEMORIAL THAT SOON ENOUGH BE GROWN IN AND DENSE AGAIN AND I WILL BE ON THE TRAILS AND RARELY SEE ANYONE TRAVERSE THRU THE THICK DENSE AREAS LIKE US…
because of
their lies and irresponsible behavior. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY- OR HEARD ANY BUT I DID HEAR SOME DID NOT LIKE THE WAY THE 100 CLUB OF ARIZONA RAN IT—
It was really just a rhetorical question Joy, but thank you for your detailed response.
you are welcome 🙂
I did reply mainly because I hate to see the high quality work of David sitting on a page like that —
the rest was just added bonus or SKIM/PASS OVER
What decade was I a deputy sheriff? I was a reserve deputy sheriff while going to college at NAU 1974-1976 (kind of like a work study program to get a foot in the door), and a full time regular deputy for 1 year in 1977-1978.
I worked for Sheriff Joe Richards, who was without a doubt one of the biggest assholes who ever ran a sheriffs department in Arizona…which has world class assholes as sheriffs in general, see….Sheriff Joe Arpaio in particular.
I graduated as the “Outstanding Cadet” from the interagency police training academy. You can see me getting my award from Sheriff Joe Richards himself in my other “I love me video” here with all of my other videos..
https://www.youtube.com/user/DeadEndPSA
My signature “I love me video” is called “Let the Day Begin” and has a really bitchin’ soundtrack…as do all of my videos.
my father worked for Sheriff Joe Arpaio and he adored the man and to hear the behind the scene stories I feel a book or movie can be written—but probably be like watching the September 2017 flick due out…Hollywood has a way of screwing up purity—
My dad was a Leo so he liked the assholes of the world…seems he attracted that too…but he died and I have a trunk full of his sheriff goodies I don’t think I should be seeing or having—seems personal…
Now I see why YOU are above me…I watched video…I loved that organizational chart—wish I could pull that off…it looks sweet
who is at 3:09
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4lPaaWsib8
I laughed at 3:25
why make a book Gary—go straight to your movie—and hire Meryl Streep 😉
Well…I keep hoping someone will bite (other than you and a very few others…no offense) at my book ideas, but so far…no dice.
Yes…those photos were taken while I was on a counter drug operation on the Mexican border in Arizona. I was driving across a back country area responding to where some sensors going off and I drove into that hole, which was embarrassing because I had to be winched out of it .
Those photos were taken behind the BLM Field Office in Farmington NM, which is where I was working on 9/11.
That was an oil and gas inspector who dressed up like an Islamic Terrorist after 9/11 and they wanted some photos of me arresting him. I went along with the gag but never really understood the point of it.
Farmington was really on the radar screen at that time because all of the western U.S. natural gas supply is controlled from there and lots of other oil and gas infrastructure was and still is…susceptible to terrorist attacks in that area.
Thank you Joy , but the organizational chart was drawn up as a gag for the Santa Fe National Forest management team and was specific to the Santa Fe Hotshots because I was known as the “other kind” of crew boss when compared to Fred.
I was kind of a top down manager, but as I keep saying, that is how I was taught to do it and the way I think everyone except Fred and Bob did it and they still do it. So…they are the odd men out…not me.
after talking to Woody recently I think he was seeing it happen as the seventies came into the eighties and he really described the people he was accustom to; YOU than the new type…the college educated nerds who talked about diseased insects versus what he said if they harvested and rid of trees properly than maybe the bugs would not hit an infestation level of killing so many…so maybe there is a POINT in hands on folks like YOU vs the ones fresh lick out of college…if you have 65-70 trees per acre less chance of that disease problem to become a real problem vs 700 trees per acre than yeah maybe you will see like in that video of tall toothpick many many trees dead due to insects..
You can also see photos in the same video from when I was selected to be the U.S. Department of Interior liaison to President Bill Clinton’s personal Secret Service Security Detail when he visited the Grand Canyon with Vice President Al Gore to sign the proclamation making the Grand Staircase Escalante into a national monument which was highly controversial at the time.
I was the only USDI employee who rode in the presidential motorcade that day and everyone lining the roads waved and cheered as I rode over to the El Tovar Lodge from the Tusayan airport where Air Force One landed and I met the president.
I almost flattened Robert Redford that day when he stepped out of a car right in front of me as I was barreling through a parking lot with the other two members of the USSS liaison detail, a senior Secret Service Special Agent and a Coconino County Sheriff’s Office detective.
No one was there that evening to wave goodbye to me when I left however… which was really a big let down after an otherwise really big day. Just another little stroll down memory lane.
Of course if I were a selfish thoughtless person and I owned horses and most if not all of my friends owned horses, or I knew people who had horsed my friends and family could borrow, I wouldn’t give a fuck if it were a long, steep hike up the backside of the Weaver Mountains to get to the PUBLIC state park either.
ONE reason I am so pissed off? Because of the growths in my throat and the damage to my airway and diminished lung capacity (whenever I get a new doctor, they have a hard time believing me when I say I have never smoked) and ruptured disks in my back…I am never going to be able to visit the deployment site now and pay my respects to OUR crew because Chief “Money Shot” Ben D’over fucked me.
I thought there was an “Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990” that said you have to make parks accessible to all Americans or at least try and make reasonable accommodations for all Americans. I am going to have to research that act, maybe I can get the ACLU to represent me in a lawsuit against Arizonastan? I am pretty sure I am hot the only one who will never get to visit the Granite Mountain Hotshot State Park.
I would really like to see Amanda Marsh under oath in a civil lawsuit describing in detail ALL of the efforts she made to find a way to make HER park accessible to people like me.
Well…that didn’t take very long.
“The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990[1][2] (ADA) is a wide-ranging civil rights law that is intended to protect against discrimination based on disability. Enacted by the U.S. Congress in 1990, it affords similar protections against discrimination to Americans with disabilities as the Civil Rights Act of 1964,[3] which made discrimination based on race, religion, sex, national origin, and other characteristics illegal. In addition, unlike the Civil Rights Act, the ADA also requires covered employers to provide reasonable accommodations to employees with disabilities, and imposes accessibility requirements on public accommodations.”
A reasonable accommodation is an adjustment made in a system to accommodate or make fair the same system for an individual based on a proven need. Accommodations can be religious, academic, or employment related and are often mandated by law. Each country has its own system of reasonable accommodations. The United Nations use this term in the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, saying refusal to make accommodation results in discrimination. It defines a ‘reasonable accommodation’ as:
“Reasonable accommodation” means necessary and appropriate modification and adjustments not imposing a disproportionate or undue burden, where needed in a particular case, to ensure to persons with disabilities the enjoyment or exercise on an equal basis with others of all human rights and fundamental freedoms;”
So the question remains. Exactly WHAT did Amanda Marsh do to follow this law. Maybe I should personally SUE her? She was acting as an “agent” of the state. Did she have “indemnity” in her quasi official capacity…or is she civilly liable for her actions or lack thereof?
Inquiring minds want to know?
Or will Amanda Marsh get Representative Quid Quo Pro Fann to get with her buddy Tobin and pass a law that the ADA doesn’t apply in Arizonastan? I have always tried my very best to be a good friend…or a bad enemy.
Whoops…should read “Representative Quid Pro Quo Fann”
At the very meeting when this entire ‘design’ for the State Park was ‘approved’ with an 8-2 vote… this ‘Board’ also ( only then ) realized that they SHOULD have always been requiring all the ‘polling’ of the ‘wishes of the family members’ that Amanda Marsh SAID she had been doing to have been more ‘formalized’ and ‘documented’.
From the minutes of that September 8, 2015 meeting…
“A recommendation was given that all future correspondence to the families are formalized.”
Whoops. A little LATE.
If they had realized earlier there was a good chance that Amanda Marsh had NOT been ‘polling ALL the family members’ at all while she was ‘representing’ them ( ALL of them ) on this ‘Board’… things might have turned out a lot different.
It still remains astounding that the 2 DISSENTING votes against this ‘design’ came from the only two representatives on the Board who were there to represent the ACTUAL ‘Wildland Firefighting Community’… and THEIR ‘wishes’.
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney
and former Prescott Fire Chief and Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.
So the HEADLINES should have always actually been…
“Design for Arizona State Park honoring Wildland Firefighters forges ahead despite REJECTION by representatives of the Wildland Firefighting Community itself”
It still remains to be seen how they are going to pull off the ‘dedication’… now pushed back 5 months from original announced date of June 30, 2016 to the new scheduled date of November 30, 2016.
VERY FEW of the ‘family members’ and ‘dignitaries’ who will basically be REQUIRED to be at this ‘dedication’ will EVER be able to do this ‘hike’ at all.
Not to mention the media that everyone will ( of course ) WANT to be there to ‘cover it all’.
So they are STILL going to have to plan and arrange some EASY ACCESS out to the deployment site come November just to get this damn thing ‘dedicated’ and ‘open’.
That’s probably what the next FOUR meetings will be about.
How to plan the ‘dedication’ since there’s no way in hell the ‘access’ they decided on is going to be adequate for doing the ‘dedication’ itself.
Unless, of course, they just blow that off as well and decide to just have the ‘ribbon cutting ceremony’ ( or whatever the heck they are going to do ) down there in Karen Fann’s brother’s 3/4 of a MILLION dollar ‘parking lot’… with no bathroom facilities. ( Bring in some port-a-potties just for the event? Dunno ).
And the whole world just gets to see the dedication of a ‘parking lot’?
As far as ‘easy’ access goes… it certainly still doesn’t meet the requirements of the ADA legislation… but anyone who wants to go out there WITHOUT doing this stupid 3 mile hike just to get to the ‘ridge’ and look DOWN can STILL just drive down Baker Lane in Glen Ilah, pull of the side of the road ( there’s nothing there )… and you are now less than 1/2 mile and less than 1,000 yards from the southeast corner of the ‘Arizona State Park’.
The hike to the ‘park boundary’ from THERE is also mostly on level ground and through existing ‘trails’. These are the remnants of the old ROAD that USED to go all the way to the deployment site back when that exact location was some kind of ‘mining camp’.
Good…I am going to sue her ass…and the rest of her as well.
But are you trespassing if you go this route?
Gary Olson says
JULY 9, 2016 AT 4:12 PM
But are you trespassing if you go this route?
the route WWTKTT described Gary if you parked near the locked gate on Foothills near the retired fire chief Truman Ferrell and real estate man Dorman Olson/Hovans/Bogart/Baker you will pass a no trespassing sign and on barker lane dirt path you would be walking on investment property of Nu-Hart llc and curve pass Owens/Silvia than leading to “open” land owned by Minch/731 Corp and then heading to the overgrown area where old burro trail is which is 731 corp land bordering Helm’s…than you will be on state land 800-20-057 then you reach restricted areas of 800-25-001E state land…keep in mind there is no proper fencing or signing in ANY of this area and under Arizona state law cannot be enforced for NO TRESPASSING….
yet do not put it pass the cronies to make a trespassing charge happen just because they have the power to play that game-
That is exactly what I am afraid of. I think if I get the authorities in Arizonaistan a shot at me, they will probably take it. So…
wwtktt said-Not to mention the media that everyone will ( of course ) WANT to be there to ‘cover it all’.
MY REPLY- the media that asked we showed them short cuts—
they all know the legal ways—
wwtktt said:As far as ‘easy’ access goes… it certainly still doesn’t meet the requirements of the ADA legislation… but anyone who wants to go out there WITHOUT doing this stupid 3 mile hike just to get to the ‘ridge’ and look DOWN can STILL just drive down Baker Lane in Glen Ilah, pull of the side of the road ( there’s nothing there )… and you are now less than 1/2 mile and less than 1,000 yards from the southeast corner of the ‘Arizona State Park’.
or they can park at Sonny’s- but Barker Lane is a “locked” gate access and not an actual road just a dirt path that is on Nu-hart llc that leads to the lone ocotillo trail of the old cloudcroft amendment and Barker Lane by Foothill is near retired fire chief so I would not recommend it and Barker Lane runs into boulders and then a residential home of Cliff and Shirley who lost their home in the YHF so really park at Sonny’s—
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 7, 2016 at 8:03 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Oh and by the way Woody called and talked to State Park long
>> ago because Woody and Rex did not have a problem of allowing
>> them to build parking lots on their land.
>>
>> Interesting also that he felt that it would be a faster way to deployment
>> site so it could be used as an educational tool.
>>
>> So the media stated that wrong because it came straight from him and
>> he brought it up.
>>
>> The memorial park as it is will be a bad thing.
It has always been an absolute ‘mystery’ how the ‘Access Sub-Committee’ for this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ just seemed to ‘give up’ on even TRYING to work things out with Rex Maughan and Woody and the other property owners to come up with a ‘good’ plan for ‘access’ to the new Arizona State Park.
You are right. There is nothing in the minutes of the ‘meetings’ for this Board that indicates Rex Maughan was ever absolutely REFUSING to ‘work with the Board’.
He was concerned about ‘splitting’ his property into weird parcels… but the minutes from the meetings themselves say that he was willing to continue working with the ‘Board’ to ‘work something out’… and the ‘minutes’ even say that Arizona Senator Pierce was supposed to keep ‘negotiating’ with the property owners. ( Rex, Woddy, etc. ).
Then… suddenly… from just one meeting of the Board to the next ( sometime between the February 27, 2015 and April 10, 2015 meetings ) is when Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm went out and ‘hiked’ the area that has now become the ‘trailhead’… and first presented HIS idea of doing a ‘hiking trail’ in from the south, across State Trust Land at that April 10, 2015 meeting.
Even at THAT April 10, meeting… the ‘minutes’ say that Arizona Senator Pierce was STILL supposed to ‘keep taking’ to Rex Maughan and the other property owners.
But by the time the NEXT meeting took place ( on May 29, 2015 )… the ‘trailhead’ up from Highway 89 is now being referred to in the meeting minutes as the ONLY way for the public to ever access the site… and they never mentioned even TRYING to obtain better access ever again.
But nowhere in ANY of the minutes was there ever a VOTE about this ‘access plan’, or even a MOTION to just ‘give up’ on trying to work out ‘better access’ with the landowners.
Chief Ben Palm just ‘presents’ his ‘hiking trail from Highway 89’ idea at one meeting… and the very next meeting it is being called a ‘done deal’… with no VOTE about it.
Very strange.
I don’t think ANYONE is actually ‘happy’ with the convoluted, arduous ‘hiking trail’ that this Yarnell Memorial Board came up with as the ONLY way to access the new State Park.
The $768,000 that State Representative and Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board member Karen Fann’s BOTHER then received for just building the stupid 13 car ‘parking lot’ down on Highway 89 is actually FAR more money than the parcels of land around Yarnell that are adjacent to the State Park ( and would have provided ‘easy’ access to the Park ) are even WORTH.
** THE PDF FILE USED AT THE LAST MEMORIAL BOARD MEETING
This ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ finally just got around to publishing the PDF ‘Presentation’ file that they prepared for the last June 22, 2016 meeting.
Here is the official Arizona State Parks website where all the ‘agendas’ and ‘meeting meetings’ of the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ are required ( by Arizona Open Meeting laws ) to be published…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
And here is a link to the actual ‘PDF Presentation’ that was used at the recent June 22, 2016 meeting, which the PUBLIC only previously got a ‘glimpse’ of via the TV cameras that were there covering that meeting…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/YHMSB_Presentation06-22-16.pdf
In the PDF document itself…
PDF page 6: Development Timeline
Says the 18 car parking lot ( Cost: $768,000+ ) was completed June 16, 2016.
PFF page 8: Photo of completed Parking Lot.
There are only 13 parking spaces for cars and and a small area for 5 motorcycles.
PDF page 9: A ‘Google maps’ slide showing the main 2.85 mile hiking trail up from the parking lot to the ‘Observation Deck’… which we can now see is actually located right around the spot on the upper ridge where Granite Mountain ‘left the two track’ and descended into the blind box canyon.
The ‘Google Map’ shows the planned location(s) along the 2.85 mile hiking trail for all 19 of the ‘bio plaques’ for each of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots.
The very first one you come across after leaving the parking lot will be the ‘bio plaque’ for Eric Marsh. The next one ( about one hundred yards later ), is supposed to be the one for Jesse Steed.
The rest of the ‘bio plaques’ follow, spaced evenly along the hiking trail. The LAST ‘two’ before reaching the ‘Observation Deck’ will be the ones for Grant McKee, and then ( lastly ) Sean Misner.
PDF page 12: Closeup photos of one of the natural-rock ‘Stairs’ that was built on one of the steeper parts of the 2.85 mile main hiking trail.
PDF page 18: Artist’s rendering of the ‘lobster cage’ baskets ( gabions ) that will be ‘encircling’ the actual deployment site. The rendering does NOT show the ‘BOULDERS and CHAINS’ that would eventually be installed BETWEEN the ‘baskets’… as per the wishes of Amanda Marsh and ( supposedly ) some small subset of other ( still unknown ) ‘family members’.
PDF page 22: A photo of the actual ‘lobster cages’ ( gabions ) installed at the deployment site and now fall filled with rocks. The ‘BOULDERS and CHAINS’ that Amanda Marsh wanted have also now been fully installed in-between the rock-filled ‘baskets’.
NOTE: The whole current ‘blocked off’ design for the deployment site ( including the ‘lobster cages’ and the BOULDERS and CHAINS ) passed by an 8-2 vote… but the two people who voted AGAINST this entire idea were the Arizona State Forester himself ( Jeff Whitney ) and the former Prescott Wildland Division Chief ( Darrell Willis ). This 8-2 vote was all about Amanda Marsh ( and some small subset of other unknown family members? ) just ‘getting their way’ with regards to what the actual deployment site access was to be at this new Arizona State Park.
PDF page 27: The ‘Future Development’ slide which shows what the additional $229,000 dollars will be used for.
PDF page 38: Close-up photo of the metal sign installed at the bottom of the metal stairway down at the parking lot which says…
NO TRESPASSING.
Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park
Is Not Yet Open to the Public.
Please DO NOT ENTER.
Expected Open Date: Fall 2016
PDF page 40 ( of 40 )
Suggested time/date for FOUR more ‘planned’ meetings of this Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Advisory Board, before the Board automatically expires at the end of this year.. including the planned ‘Opening day’ for the park now pushed all the way out from original planned dedication on June 30, 2016 to November 30, 2016…
– August 17, 2016 – 1 pm.
– October 19, 2016 – 1 pm.
– November 23, 2016 – 1 pm.
– November 30, 2016 – GRAND OPENING!
Do you want me to take an educated guess why the access to the park was handled like it was? Rhetorical question…of course you do.
Amanda Marsh and her unknown subset of families, who certainly include her henchpeople (and you know who you are) never did want anyone to have ANY access to the deployment site or the park in general. If you can’t keep everyone out period…what is the next best thing?
Yes…you are correct, make it as difficult as possible for everyone else to get there while they (the special people) make off-the-record arrangements for themselves with landowners to gain easy access because they will play on people’s emotions and guilt that they DESERVE special access because they are special people.
So…everything is going to Amanda Marsh’s Master Plan for her to get everything she wanted in the first place except they don’t even have to spend any of the millions of dollars that were donated to them by the public to get their way,…they get to use public dollars in addition to the thirteen or fourteen MILLION dollars they already got.
And as a bonus…Karen Fann’s brother (and so did she as a kickback) got a butt load of money to built a parking lot no one will ever use except to pull over long enough to throw out beer bottles and dirty diapers because that is what the public does at those kind of places.
So this loved one I mentioned he did not even know about the $43,000 donation October 2013 that was to directly go to the
spouses, children and fiancés of the 19 fallen firefighters and to the surviving member of Crew 7.
I never hear anything new about this again—
like has anyone used the $43,000 from the group to further educate themselves—
alot of money went out to this tragedy so cannot imagine APS donating to finish a memorial project that should of been designed much different and is a problem in the waiting with future unknown rescues and such—- when it is the improper burn out operation that burned their APS poles just recently—screwed up world—-
see in article:
Yavapai College honors the brave men of Granite Mountain Hotshots Crew 7 by establishing the Granite Mountain
Hotshots Scholarship fund for the purpose of providing financial assistance for postsecondary education to the
spouses, children and fiancés of the 19 fallen firefighters and to the surviving member of Crew 7.
http://www.elks.org/SharedElksOrg/lodges/files/2350_December2013Newsletter.pdf
The Corral Newsletter
Coolidge-Florence Elks Lodge #2350
Florence, Arizona
Published: December, 2013
http://www.elks.org/SharedElksOrg/lodges/files/2350_December2013Newsletter.pdf
From PDF page 9 ( of 11 page )…
——————————————————————————————-
Yavapai College Foundation
Granite Mountain Hotshots Scholarship
SCHOLARSHIP CHARTER
The thirty identified beneficiaries of the scholarship fund will include the 15 children (one yet unborn), 13 spouses of the fallen Prescott Granite Mountain Hotshots and the one surviving Hotshot crew member.
For beneficiaries enrolling at Yavapai College, the fund will provide scholarships for up to two years toward the costs of tuition and fees, books, supplies, and room and board.
For beneficiaries pursuing postsecondary education or training at an institution other than Yavapai College, the fund will provide scholarships for up to two years, in an amount equivalent to the Yavapai College scholarship.
Over time, should the scholarship fund grow large enough, Yavapai College Foundation may be able to offer scholarship assistance for up to two additional years for beneficiaries pursuing a degree, certificate or vocational education.
After all beneficiary scholarship obligations have been met, any money remaining in the fund will be used to provide scholarships for students in the Yavapai College fire science, or closely related program.
PHOTO: Arizona Elks Lodge Members holding a large, printed CHECK for $43,000 made out to the ‘Yavapai College Foundation Granite Mountain Firefighters Fund’.
———————————————————————————————–
So when Pat McCarty went structural in 2010 and now an actor —did Clayton fill his shoes as squad boss at that time?
http://www.prescott-az.gov/_d/agendas/2010-05-25_2613_min.pdf
and in that link I noted Mando–he was continuing to grow within the GMHS and why would he go from a high position to than doing garbage?
I hiked him,,,Sonny felt he was a foreigner from another country as I saw his quietness as a blessing not knowing WHO he was or even if he was hiddenly planted there or not but he seem to just BE there as we hiked the Weather Channel and I thought it was a good thing—
I wonder if Mando gets an aka actor spot too like Pat—
sometimes I feel “ahhh” one step closer to walk away from it all (yhf) than I bump into someone and lately it has been on my hikes or walks or the doctor’s waiting room as they are the ones that bring it up—like meeting a loved one as they expressed their take on last Yarnell fire in ugh disbelief as they went on their ugh on first fire and I not knowing they lost someone in the 6-30 fire stated I hope the pure nature of 6-30-13 surfaces but until then I just have stance missing elements and it should of never happened and hope for the truth to prevail—and then bam- they explain their loss—so then I am like there must be a select group that of the loved ones choose not to like me from the get go because I did not walk away or my style of me but when I keep meeting loved ones of the GMHS and homeowners—I then keep looking….because these our God-guided moments where I am being shown these folks & one was in Scottsdale and one was in Wickenburg—nowhere near the town of Prescott—
also interesting page 102 when they talk about WHO developed the dept’s wildland program—it does not name Marsh but McElwee and Malm
https://books.google.com/books?id=vqxqBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=Mork,+Austin+firefighter&source=bl&ots=oB4hDUyBZw&sig=jyDnD6wh9-tj05Vjs5MpDKXAlKk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjO7cSxhePNAhWIpYMKHYrjBnoQ6AEISDAH#v=onepage&q=Mork%2C%20Austin%20firefighter&f=false
on page 99 I learned one of my questions that recently CITY AND PRESCOTT FIRE DEPT recently stated there may be NO RECORDS of my request— horseshit I know but what I was told—
Just ANOTHER ‘book’ that only MENTIONS the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ but doesn’t really go into any detail about it.
Actually…this book simply codifies the “big bad fire just came and got them” belief that so many cling to ( the media included ).
There is no mention at all of the fact that they were ‘moving’ ( by choice ) OUT of a ‘safe’ area and INTO an ‘unsafe area’ where they became entrapped.
They DECIDED to drop into a blind box canyon full of dry, explosive fuel, less than 1/2 mile in front of a dynamic, wind-driven fireline, at the height of the burn cycle.
and what I am learning wwtktt in this all that the loved one of the gmhs I recently sat down with…he does not understand the books and movie…not at all…he thinks if they do it for the GMHS it should be done for all fallen…he seems to look at it like “how” can they make books and movies on my son when not one person was there at the very end to know what happened so maybe what you take as DOES NOT MENTION— probably like this man said noone was there so they cannot really touch that area— but I got first hand information a few times over that this movie and books is not looked upon as honoring the men but just another political goal much like the memorial park he said-
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ql_1
more actors added-
one a-lister actor sent me this link at 12:05pm today stating because of all the strife with todays police…etc…
http://biggeekdad.com/2014/12/policeman/
my take on the police…the fire…etc…it is the person behind the badge…and how they live their daily lives personal and professional…and I say you do not have to run by the brainwash programmable system but by the reason God made you not what others want or need of you…too many have too many rules…and hang ups…when it’s actually quite simple…FOREST FULL…sawyers start cutting…the other guys start chipping and store that shit and get it to the warehouse and start packaging it up as as genuine forest mulch and your different dye colors and there is where income can come in versus the use of letting things grow and get out of hand…IF FORESTRY/state/federal/local fire depts EXPECT us to burn in a “contained” way I than EXPECT THE SAME and I am not ok with using my tax dollars the way they currently rip us off…over $4million on this silly ass fire here in Yarnell last month—and examine the original fire and the simpletons who began a burn out operation in a DRY HOT time and go “hmmm wonder how it got from point a to b???” duh…
on fire topic—and are they on the line to make FORESTRY/FIRE COMMUNITY/HIGHER UPS richer by hiring people out of college that can brainwash the public to believe its insidious diseased bugs instead of praising the grunts and the grunt work and their hard work of yesterdays…by their PROPER clearing and harvesting of the land versus what is seen today…I mean this kindly …the simpletons that are college educated and or in higher end positions RUNNING the show—how hard was it the old way…clearing out your trees and burning the slash in wetter seasons? Why is it not only acceptable behavior to just burn manzinita/cat/claw/scrub oak tight up against property lines and just think WELL WE ONLY…we only…we only burn down this and that…when if done PROPER nothing should burn down and lives should not be lost if you GET weather, terrain and fire behavior…I am not even a firefighter but hung out long enough with Sonny who can easily hand me over an ax, chainsaw, jackhammer and let me do the work as he enjoys a guiness to TRY and teach me stuff I should know “in case”….I at first was like why the hell would I need to KNOW “how” to cut a tree down…especially THAT tall in the Utah forest??? Made no sense but looking back I know some call it slash line but loggers call it BEAVER BAIT…trash logs/debris.
Looking in a forest I can now identify lightning from blow down to man made…Sonny showed me bucking…Sonny never wore safety googles or protection gear and he knows the plan before even looking…that tree falls wherever he said—“notches” were taught alot to me—the variations–the hinge/notch
Whoops…accidentally did what I said I wouldn’t do, broke a link on my website while editing my indictment of Eric Marsh. This indictment will have to suffice until when and if I ever get my highly acclaimed and much anticipated book, “Rise Of The Hybrid Firefighters” finished and published.
So, click early and click often. Those search engines aren’t going to find this page without your help.
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
Thanks for pressing on Gary.
Edmund Burke also said: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
And that’s what we have occurring with the ongoing YH Fire investigation regarding GMHS Leadership and Human Factors.
Keep up the good work.
Right on Robert…this should light em’ up. Have you read it since I outed the 100 Club of Arizona and the Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildand Firefighters just now? I didn’t even use any profanity…although it was hard to express myself regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire without using it.
Oh…and one more thing. As usual…you and I have more in common than we do in differences.
God Bless America!
Thank you Robert. As usual…you and I have far more in common than we do in differences.
Have you read my indictment since I outed the 100 Club of Arizona and the Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters? That should light em’ up.
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
My comments keep getting stuck in moderation?
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on July 6, 2016 at 10:10 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Edmund Burke also said: “The only thing necessary for the triumph
>> of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
>>
>> And that’s what we have occurring with the ongoing YH Fire
>> investigation regarding GMHS Leadership and Human Factors.
Yes… but I would take the specific reference to ‘GMHS’ out of your statement and say that as far as ‘good men doing nothing’ and the ‘ongoing YH Fire investigation’ goes… it looks more like this…
“And that’s what we have occurring with the ongoing YH Fire investigation regarding Leadership and Human Factors.”
There is still more to be ‘known’ about ALL of the ‘leadership’ decisions that were being made that afternoon… and not JUST the ones being made by GMHS.
Thank you for the recent comment by wwtktt..until all missing elements surface that is a fair pure comment.
WTKTT and Joy,
It matters more to me what the GMHS leadership and Human Factors were because they had the ultimate responsibility for the safety and welfare of the men they supervised. Nothing else ever mattered!
As I’ve said before, nobody held a gun to their heads or forced them in any way to leave the safe black.
The GMHS leadership were responsible for their deaths.
I’ve been on plenty of fires with poor leadership, bad tactics and strategy, bad decisions, directing us to do all manner of unsafe actions, including being directed to leave Safety Zones at the worst possible time.
We always refused and gave them one or more options.
That’s a great reply RTS… You said what matters to you and I get listening to all the people who were on the fire and Sonny take on it but I am not a supporter of Order given and feel without all missing elements than speculation and humble opinions surface not exactly what happened on 6-30-13…and how come when it comes to Roy Hall he is the hardest to get any FOIA documents on to learn about him and his history… There has been a HUGE county layer of protection vs just answer the questions I get more dodged attempts on questions when they say no records yet adosh in 2013 seen similar answers I am now asking almost same but deeper look…that matters to me but ycso from the start have shown odd behavior in both fires… The replies on recent foias have been down right odd…the BLM and state have been very good in communication.. Congress fire Dept was the fastest and fulfilled it and I appreciated a lot I sent them a special party event moment for their professional quick manners which yarnell fire dept has been so ridiculous to me…
But RTS brought up a good point…what matters to him should matter to us all yet one cannot tell me the missing elements are meaningless… Oh..I have to go call someone… But before I do…Woody Grantham is who I am speaking to…update soon…
It is so re-freshening to “listen” to Mr. Grantham that he shares on the topic on both fires-
I think at this point in it—it is “private” our talk ???? but I have spoke a couple times this week and plan to in the future but to learn OLD SCHOOL firefighting back in the 60’s and 70’s from him (SO COOL—the good ol’ days in my humble opinion vs the horseshit nowadays) ) and how he was the Air Tanker Assoc president long ago and the chemicals used then vs today and how firefighters in the day would be drenched in the slurry—
to listen about the systematic of BLM/Local Dept/State/Federal….how one chemical dropped was better than another because it absorbed better vs float away…and the talk on BLM Bruce leaving after YHF…How Woody was notified by state AFTER the fact and was not informed before on this burnout operation on his land nor was there any fire breaks but I told him there is a FRESH dozer line in areas that lead to his property off 89 but in the end no harm done—-how FORESTRY journey in the 70’s preached the let the natural burns go versus jumping right on them…really enjoyed his talk on the White Mountain days—the meetings fire managers had— how the BLAME always fell somewhere else (like diseased trees…etc) NEVER THEIR FAULT !!! NEVER! He spoke about “DM” and how at the fire meeting “DM” stated “God gave us the forest- like cropping corn— selective cuts— Rain conditions— Harvest— and how “DM” had 60-85 trees per acres and in the Fall/wetter season they burned their slash piles- they did not just burn out in SUMMER DRY MONSOON season during the day like you see nowadays and they cracked their piles at the break of day NOT INTO THE DAY— NOW the other side of hwy 260 had 700 trees per acre—toothpick size—-and that to “DM” had to make God mad because without properly doing it—we see what we do today–MISMANAGED fires being fought and MORE about your credentials of what college you attended—-The same folks I have seen hassle with; he has too so I DO NOT FEEL ALONE ANYMORE— too much politics and too much changes for the WRONG has taken place so now my question to firefighters new and old:
RTS brought up a valid point and it is bottom line a fact as it is what it was…but who are these higher ups and how are they planning these wildfires to manage them because without quick initial attacks—you than start in my humble opinion to manage a wildfire that cannot be— WHY can’t Chief Ben Palm just answer my questions vs the bullshit I am seeing- the game…HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD go in for third time—
I DID EMAILS AND SNAIL MAIL TRACKING THAN IN PERSON—>
FIRST TIME- Denise Roggio knew NOTHING about FOIA records/form
SECOND TIME- She and Rice kept playing that role weeks later with asking me if I am a conspirator as I explained no just wanting public records to properly assess things out- than to have Arlon Rice state to me “it’s not even YOUR district- why do you care- why is it your business?” Than who walks in (because Denise called their direct line) but YCSO to let me know that if Yarnell Fire Dept is opting to not give me a form than leave- ?????
Than Sonny writes and gets QUICK reply to come get the form.
I see Chief Ben Palm out front and Sonny said he wanted to go to library to get dvd first and then when we get there 2 firefighters present called Chief and he said have lady see Denise at another time-
SO ON THIRD ATTEMPT NOTHING— would you go in same place this woman called the sheriff on you? I wrote email stating if he cannot give it to us than just mail the form as they still have my SASE with blank cd- STILL NOTHING— no acknowledgement so I am weary should I go in with SOUND RECORDER- ask for form and then fill it out there and I was told on a legal consult that my emails serve as proper legal inquiries that still need to be acknowledged within 30 days so I am really like ??? because I never HEARD anything from Deer Valley on Pete Masiel ever or any of the aviation places I sent to and also Yarnell/Wickenburg/Peeples Valley just Congress—what the heck? and YCSO just emailed me saying due to case 16-020890 under investigation I will not be learning the 911 calls/ambulance calls/first to arrive/locations/who was first on scene 6-8-16 and who was scheduled 6-8-16 for that fire. They said resubmit later so another thing shelved—
I have been off enjoying Otis T. bday—his was the same bday as mine so HAPPY BIRTHDAY OTIS! Actually I have been assisting Sonny with extreme heat activities and doing my physical therapy before my surgeries that I thought would be done and over with but it is what it is—things take time…I will catch up on my IM reading but boy—was floored by Gary’s new link—wow! man, harsh. I shook my head when I clicked on it—never expected that at all.
I am getting back into rhythm so to speak—taking time off with side notes here and there kept me in the loop but really wonder did they name the people who got hurt- Chief Ben Palm, Jon and Kristee Lewis of YFD were on Cedar fire—
In talking to Woody- I would call him the Copter Cowboy-
old school fire classes and his ranching experience makes him an interesting conversation indeed- how he heard cattle from the air vs hiring cowboys 🙂
oh and by the way Woody called and talked to State Park long ago because Woody and Rex did not have a problem of allowing them to build parking lots on their land—
interesting also that he felt that it would be a faster way to deployment site so it could be used as an educational tool-
so the media stated that wrong because it came straight from him and he brought it up- the memorial park as it is will be a bad thing— for the same things I say…man we locals know Snakeman Tommy Maiden was a bit kooky and he let out way too many snakes in that area and that alone is enough for locals that know but Rose and her pals locally have been hiking the GMHS trail for months now and they say the people building it never said it was closed or told them to leave—“enjoy your time”—they would say—they asked me about some YELLOW flag on some rocks what it means and I say I stay out of that area—so do not even know a YELLOW flag but apparently a yellow flag is up there—but I love LOVE these locals telling me they go in restrictive areas because it has always been some folks beef I was in there and yet I was isolated out and I have a nice list of names of people who been there done that…so if ever time comes my isolation surfaced as a concern I have documented proof others locally and out of state do—
JOY SAID: how he heard cattle
maybe he did hear the cattle but I typed in herd and the darn spell check changed it and I did not note it until now—
herd cattle
Ephesians 5:11 is one of the BEST things RTS stated in a public fashion-
what I wish RTS would dabble more on is the science of Arizona Weather-
and does he agree with public information Stephen Pyne has said over time on Fire/Weather-
and his take on what I just stated on US Forestry—about the college nerds vs “real” time hands on “experienced” folks and how the college nerds took over the Forestry in the 70’s and began to make a new kind of way to fight fires—-
let’s talk skies—not just weather but the sky itself and its changes–
let’s talk about the HUMAN FACTORS of weather and that alone is affecting us all—
Charles Casmir Lipinski was a part of my Wickenburg Hikes awhile back and as I walked from Congress Arizona to Filiberto’s in Wickenburg and back I would pass by his property on Easy Street and he and I would talk about his tomatoes and food garden and how the trees have been affected and tomatoes by the skies…he was almost 90…
anyways we talked about the ground to sky- the dry spells being seen—
so RTS my question to you is 6-30-13 we the hikers SAW the BAD WEATHER in the distance coming our way—SAME SKY those men did see—so why were they out there THAT late? When that mountain was taken over by that fire early on—why not leave earlier???
When we saw fire twisters/tornadoes and then Sonny said “we have to get the hell out of here”…he saw how fast due to the tidal wave like fire was roaring…
as a kid I thought clouds told me the sky story but not so much anymore— there is jet trails and crap like that—where is Marti Reed when we talk weather? 🙂
nowadays we got GREAT technology on up-to-date satellite imagery so how the hell are people still dying…so much technology out there—why aren’t we buying these high quality items for the crews versus all the taxpayer dollars going to alot of areas including memorial parks…
I am going to pause as RTS and Bob step in and say “Joy, if firefighters follow the 10&18 and LCES- they would be alive today.”
so break it down for people like me what rules they broke really that even with missing elements it would not matter at all—
Do you honestly FEEL Donut was the normal lookout or knew anything about weather as one should for being a lookout???? curious—
what’s your take on Donut’s position that day.
was he qualified to do that position that day or was he just so ill/spent and was placed in that spot to get him off the hill…you are a leader RTS…explain that to me…because so many areas do not make sense…
You have the baton RTS…so time for the season for sharing…you have that natural “coaching” flair…do you get that you have a strong work ethic and people I have met that got the chance to hear you speak in person—“perfection”—that’s you. Bring that “shake it up” 70’s guy here…my question remains…”How do we get beyond Yarnell Hill”?
so I am begging you to give me more than the 10&18 and the LCES and tell us what is the current and future of LEADERSHIP for wildland firefighters…
if you need to think about it—hike out to the White Mountain’s black river where my grandpa and my father and uncle use to fish and just see what you see there…it’s amazing to go all rugged but there is always the sweet Hannagan Meadows for the non-rugged ones—my point is to take a step into my shoes and see the skies there on the river and compare it to decades ago…its not the same sky…
so when you get a chance let your voice reach me over all else—
I know you are able to reach me…you remind me of Gary in the sense that you seem like the Leo lion like my father who was born on the 21st of August and grandma 8/12/28 and I am not easy to “get” but please “get” I need YOUR leadership here…bring it..
Yep, me too.
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> So, click early and click often. Those search engines aren’t going
>> to find this page without your help.
>>
>> http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
It’s permanent now. Your site was just recently ‘scanned’ by the ‘Internet Archive’ engine ( Wayback machine ) and is now permanently part of the ‘history’ of the ‘web’ and of your ‘website’ stored at the following global URL…
https://web.archive.org/web/20160707210743/http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
Your website has actually been completely ‘saved’ 6 times
between August 29, 2013 and ( again just today ) July 7, 2016.
Here’s a direct link to the summary page at the ‘Web Archive’ which shows how many times your website has been ‘archived’…. and WHEN…
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ourfiregods.com
Very cool. Thanks for the link.
Now even if I die and my credit card eventually fails with auto renew…my opinion on this matter will be preserved for as long as there is an internet.
Technology…gotta love it…or hate it. In either case we have to deal with it. “They” used to have an easier time of it BEFORE the internet leveled the playing field a little bit.
Someone told me the other day that the 100 Club of Arizona has access to a lot of money and a lot of attorneys so the average person should fear them. I am sure that is very true…but I am not an average person…so I say…SUE ME! We can discuss in court under oath what they think I am wrong about.
Very cool. Now my opinion will outlast me and my website. Thanks for the link.
**
** CEDAR CREEK FIRE – NEXRAD RADAR LOOP FOR JUNE 28, 2016
New video is now available showing the actual NEXRAD radar loop out of Phoenix for the afternoon of June 28, 2016… with a FOCUS on the area of the ‘Cedar Creek Fire’.
I also added an ‘overlay’ to this new video of the actual PERIMITER of the Cedar Creek Fire as of 2:47 AM the morning of June 27, 2016.
That is the last ‘Perimeter’ map published by IC John Pierson and his OSC Todd Abel before Pierson’s ‘Type 1 IMT’ performed a 95 percent reduction in resources engaged on the fire on the dmorning of June 28, 2016, and handed control of the Cedar Creek Fire over to the BIA out of Fort Apache.
http://youtu.be/rXd3RZa_1nI
About the video…
CEDAR CREEK FIRE – NEXRAD RADAR LOOP
VIEW: BASE REFLECTIVITY ( 1.5 Elevation Angle )
STATION: Phoenix, Arizona NEXRAD
Date: June 28, 2016
From: 18:59:06 GMT ( 11:59:06 AM MST )
To: 23:57:45 ( 4:57 PM MST )
NOTE: Arizona TIME is always GMT ( Greenwich Mean Time ) -7 hours. Arizona never observes Daylight Savings Time, so that makes the time in Arizona always MST ( Mountain STANDARD time ).
18:00 GMT = 11:00 AM Arizona time
19:00 GMT = 12:00 PM Arizona time
20:00 GMT = 01:00 PM Arizona time
21:00 GMT = 02:00 PM Arizona time
22:00 GMT = 03:00 PM Arizona time
23:00 GMT = 04:00 PM Arizona time
etc…
In the VIDEO.. the NEXRAD RADAR LOOP plays THREE times ( slowly ).
As the VIDEO plays… the GMT time for each NEXRAD frame is displayed in the upper RIGHT corner of the video.
Followup…
The actual ‘official’ 72-Hour ‘report’ on the Cedar Creek Fire Deployment is also now available at the ‘Wildfire Lessons Learned’ center…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=46244496-12cf-4333-84f6-3b3084d06c34
The ‘official’ 24-hour report put the TIME of the deployment on June 28, 2016 at 4:15 PM.
The ‘official’ 72-hour report is now ‘dialing that back’ 1 hour and 25 minutes and says the deployment actually took place right around 2:50 PM.
The 72-hour report is also says the investigation is being handled by a ‘SAIT’ ( Special Accident Investigation Team’. There is no mention of the newer CRP ( Coordinated Response Protocol ) that was developed by John Phipps and Ivan Pupulidy of the USFS to ‘replace’ the SAIT protocol.
The 72-hour report makes no mention of the 95 percent reduction in resources on the fire overnight on June 27, 2016… but it does now say that there was ( supposedly ) some kind of ‘Fire Whirl’ involved in the deployment.
WTKTT,
Thanks for the update and the NEXRAD Radar data. Good work.
Thankfully, these WFF’s sustained only minor burn injuries.
The NWCG IRPG page 5: Common Denominators of Fire Behavior on Tragedy Fires.
1. On relatively small fires or DECEPTIVELY QUIET AREAS OF LARGE FIRES.
3. Where there is an UNEXPECTED SHIFT IN WIND DIRECTION OR WIND SPEED.
The ‘official’ 72-hour report states:
“THREE LOOKOUTS were in place and OBSERVED THE [fire behavior] EVENT from TWO SEPARATE LOCATIONS.”
There is NO mention that any of THREE LOOKOUTS could see the incoming WEATHER per Fire Order One: “Recognize CURRENT weather conditions and obtain forecasts.”
WEATHER determines and influences FIRE BEHAVIOR, every time.
The 72-hour report further states: “RADIO COMMUNICATIONS WERE MAINTAINED among the crew and were SUFFICIENT THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE [fire behavior] EVENT.”
It is difficult to imagine that these outflow winds just suddenly appeared without warning, without being noticed.
These outflow wind [weather] events are daily occurrences in the Southwest and on this particular Cedar Fire.
The June 26, 1990 Dude Fire fatalities resulted, in part, from intense fire behavior influenced by afternoon outflow winds. The June 30, 2013 YH Fire fatalities resulted, in part, from intense fire behavior influenced by afternoon outflow winds.
Now we can add to that list, the June 28, 2016 Cedar Fire burn victims resulted, in part, from intense fire behavior influenced by afternoon outflow winds.
Once again, thankfully, there were only minor burn injuries to these WFF’s.
Lessons Learned anyone?
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on July 5, 2016 at 10:27 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Once again, thankfully, there were only minor burn injuries
>> to these WFF’s.
Yes. Now the 72-hour report says that only TWO ( of the six ) Navajo IHC based out of Fort Deviance that were ‘evaluated’ at the hospital actually even received any ‘treatment’ for ‘smoke inhalation’.
It is absolute GOODNESS that no one is running around, at the moment, trying to rent another ‘Toyota Center’ in Arizona and also checking to see what Vice President Joe Biden’s schedule ‘looks like’.
But there are still a LOT of ‘particulars’ about this ‘near-miss’ that are NOT known… and NEED to ‘be known’.
EVERY ‘deployment’ is SERIOUS… and deserves to be fully documented, in order for any/all possible “Lessons to Learn” to be disseminated to the Wildland Firefighting community at large.
BOTH the 24-hour report AND ( now ) the 72-hour report say the same exact thing…
“They moved into a previously burned area and deployed their fire shelters.”
That means they either did not HAVE a TRUE ‘Safety Zone’ designated ( never a need to use a fire shelter )… or they did NOT have TIME to ‘reach one’… or BOTH.
And NEITHER report makes ANY mention of the HUGE ‘ramp-down’ that had taken place in the 24 hours prior to the deployment… with 90+ percent of the ‘resources’ that had been working the fire literally just ‘evaporating’ from one operational shift to the next shift… when the deployment took place.
Could it be that the “Nobody (left) here but us chickens’ syndrome had ANYTHING to do with this? Is it possible that this crew felt obligated to take on MORE than they should have… or at least press ‘farther’ into the ‘Not-so good-black’ than they otherwise might/should have… BECAUSE everyone had ‘left the building’ and they felt ( somehow ) ‘obligated’ to ‘push themselves’ and make compromising decisions out on that fireline?
One of the ‘initial interviews’ with Candy Lupe, PIO for the Bureau of Indian affairs, indicated that the firefighters had “retreated to an area they though was large enough to protect them, but eventually decided to deploy their shelters”.
Does this ( once again ) raise the issue of “How BIG is BIG ENOUGH?”, and whether that concept is being adequately TAUGHT to men and women before they are put into situations where they have to make those decisions ‘on their own’?
And does it also raise the ongoing question of ‘when is ‘the black’ really ‘the safe black’, and whether THAT concept is also being adequately TAUGHT to the men and women who have to MAKE those decisions ‘in the field’?
And is there really anything to this comment about what happened that was posted over on Bill Gabbert’s Wildfire Today site…
——————————————————————–
On June 30, 2016 at 4:37 am, Bob said…
My understanding was that a Type 3 Team was to follow the Type 1 Team on the Cedar Fire. However, the Agency wanted the Type 3 Team to move from the school ICP to White River dustbowl ICP location. Some believe that was to facilitate additional BIA contractor and personnel hiring. Heated discussions regarding the proposed move of the ICP.
In the end, Type 3 Team decided not to accept the assignment. That left the Type 1 Team passing the fire to the Agency with the 91% reduction of staff, and most Logistics demobed (showers, caterers, etc). All functions likely were running at minimal staffing, from Plans to Ops to Safety Officers.
———————————————————————-
What is really interesting is that immediately AFTER ‘the deployment’… the ‘Incident’ was then taken back OUT of the local BIA ‘Agency’ control and it RETURNED to being managed by a ‘Type 3’ Incident Management team.
As of 6:14 PM on Friday, July 1, 2016 ( 72 hours AFTER the deployment on Wednesday, June 28, 2016 ), the NIFC SWCC information site officially lists the ‘Cedar Fire’ as being managed by a ‘Type 3’ team with IC ‘Isaac Karuzas – USFS – R1’.
http://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/predictive/intelligence/daily/8A_Daily_ICS-209_Summary_Table__Incident_Intell.pdf
—————————————————————————–
Incident Name: Cedar
Unit ID: AZ-FTA
Unit Name: Fort Apache Agency
Incident Number: 000403
Dispatch Office: Show Low Interagency Dispatch Center
Incident Start Date/Time: Jun 15, 2016 1:42:00 PM
Incident Cause: Unknown
Current Incident Sie: 45977 acres
Percent Contained / Completed: 100 percent
Incident Management Organization: Type 3 IC
Incident Commander / Agency: Isaac Karuzas, USFS R1
Latitude: 34.0551600
Longitude: -110.1840000
Short Location / Description: 18 miles northwest of Whiteriver;
10 miles south of Pinetop-Lakeside / Show Low
Fuel Model, Primary: Timber ( Litter and Understory )
Report Version: Update
Strategy: Full Suppression
Strategy Percent: 100 percent
Approved Date/Time: Jul 1, 2016 6:14:46 PM
—————————————————————————–
ALL of these ‘issues’ can/should be raised and ‘looked into’ by any ‘investigation’ of the incident.
And speaking of which… let me ask YOU the same question I’ve already asked regarding the ‘investigation’ of this incident.
ALL of the ‘reports’ state that there is no question that there will be a “Special Accident Investigation Team” ( A SAIT ) being used to investigate this particular incident.
So what’s up with THAT?
I thought the ‘SAIT protocol’ for ‘Accident Investigations’ was HISTORY… and that the new Ivan Pupulidy authored “Coordinated Response Protocol” that was used to investigate the Twisp fatalities was now the ‘standard protocol’ that had REPLACED the older ‘SAIT’ approach?
Can YOU ( RTS ) shed any light on THAT?
Are we looking at a situation now where various ‘accidents’ and/or ‘fatalities’ will be ‘investigated’ using VARIOUS ‘Protocols’… and you can’t be sure WHAT will be used until the people involved ‘pick one’?
Like some kind of schizophrenic poker game where it’s “DEALER’S CHOICE”?
Some very good questions WTKTT———
My one safety concern is when working mop up in a understory burn
(ground fuel burned with the over story dried but in many areas unburned)
You have a lot of heat as the day progresses and the temp’s go up the Humidity falls the burning embers ignite it becomes a critical and serious problem close to the Fire Line.
To mop up in a area like that that can be small to large requires a lot of safety protocol. It can also be viewed as just mop up the fire is contained. Selecting a SZ to fall back to is critical because it burned dose not mean it is safe. The SZ size for safety can be less because of reduced fuel but a little time to prep an area is mandatory.
A crown fire which jumps from the ground to the Canopy can be quite intense and produce heat but maybe not any direct flames because a ground fire has cleared the ground fuel.
This type of fire is the one place where you need a lot of pre planning and caution. You also need good and Up Dated Forecasts to know if there are any weather changes predicted. Understory Mop Up has and will always be a high safety issue like walking on EGGS at times based on the Fire activity and the size of the under story burn.
The lack of weather for casts to the crew or the fire may have been a factor with the loss of the Type 1 Team. Containment dose not mean the Fire is 100% controlled the team may have pulled out to early and left the locals short of resources that included weather predictions at the local level on what seems to have been a critical piece of line that was not secured.
They had look outs and Communications. They had a escape route into the black. The SZ was the black but should have evaluated the area to insure it was good enough. In that situation I do not think they could have escaped all the heat and smoke. THAT IS AT TIME COMMON AND MAYBE NOT AS INTENSE AS SOME PANIC AND BELEIVE. The decision to use the fire shelters to reduce the heat and smoke and hot embers was a good one. Second guessing on what the felt or saw will not change the fact that they all got out with minor injuries and lived through a burn over do to preplanning and execution of their LCES.
The fire whirl near or on top of them is as critical a weather change as you will ever see on a Wild land Fire The chances of being in the middle of one are like a million to one. A fire can go from smoldering to flames and the whirl can move it in any direction. You are left with making quick decisions in the heat of the moment.
My conclusions— WELL DONE GUYS WELL DONE………….
WTKTT,
This was on the SW portion of the fire and the IMT had previously warned the WFF’s to stay out of the area because it was such a ‘dirty burn’ and too rugged and it wasn’t worth the risks involved.
The Cedar Fire made a major run on Father’s Day that impressed even veteran WFF’s.
From someone that was there for 2 weeks: “The southwest corner was not hard lined but contained within US 73 and US 60 in the PJ. It would put a small column up now and then as it burned out to fuel change or with an outflow then go out, it was monitored from the road/air. I thought it was a sound strategy for the area. Maybe they were cold trailing or putting in line there once the team left, I don’t know.”
Regarding your SAIT versus CRAP question, the CRAP seems to be strictly a USFS thing and because this was a BIA fire, they can use whatever investigative process they want.
More clarity THANKS..
Patrol and Mop up can be a simple process except in over story.
if it would just flare up and go back with the road as a boundary seems strange they would go into the understory burn.
Mop up can loll you to sleep and you forget to pay attention.
They still seemed to be aware of their surroundings at the time.
Yes, it appears they were aware of their immediate surroundings but NOT any incoming outflow winds from almost daily thunderstorms. Hindsight bias? Maybe but it’s covered in the Basic WFF Rules and LCES. Lookouts are for weather AND fire behavior and not just fire behavior.
Actually… it looks like they might not have been doing ‘mop up’ at all… but rather… cutting ‘indirect line’ in a previously unburned area.
BOTH the 24 and the 72 hour reports say that the men decided to “move INTO a previously burned area in order to deploy their shelters”.
Well… if they decided to move BACK INTO a ‘previously burned area’… that automatically means there were NOT already ‘in one’ when the shit started to hit the fan.
As in… NOT doing ‘mop up’ in a ‘previously burned area’… but off doing ( What? ‘line work’? ) in ‘unburned fuel’ in an area that had NOT ‘burned yet’.
Sort the same ‘Yarnell syndrome’.
If they really had ALREADY been in a ‘previously burned area’… then why would they have felt the need to have to move to some OTHER area just in order to deploy their shelters?
Followup…
Correction for last comment.
I didn’t mean to imply for one second that there is ANY ‘question’ as to whether or not the Granite Mountain Hotshots WERE in a ‘previously burned area’ before they decided to make that fatal move.
They WERE. No question.
I was just saying that in the ‘Cedar Creek Fire’ case… if THOSE men really had been ‘working’ in a ‘previously burned area’… with one foot in ‘safe black’… then why would they have felt they needed to go find some OTHER ‘previously burned area’ just to deploy their shelters in.
We still need to know more about EXACTLY what those Navajo Type 1 Hotshots were actually trying to do that afternoon… and WHERE they actually WERE when the shit started to hit the fan.
Basic fire weather…
Convective thunderstorms create atmospheric instability… Instability allows for the creation of dust devils or fire whirls…
Someone should have covered this st the morning briefing.
Possibly a burned area with more black but in the same area.
Based on the team leaving there would be no need to put in more line they would have had the fire Contained which means it was encircled by a Containment line.
They could as well have been lining unburned islands with in the fire area but that is normally not done. if the islands don’t burn they normally do not burn later.
A dirty burn close to the line would be a concern and require mop up to keep it from igniting and jumping the line. It sounds though like the line was a highway or road. Where they were.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on July 6, 2016 at 9:17 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> This was on the SW portion of the fire and
>> the IMT had previously warned the WFF’s to stay
>> out of the area because it was such a ‘dirty burn’
>> and too rugged and it wasn’t worth the risks involved.
Well… than that is a ‘significant’ part of ‘the story’… and needs to be included in the ‘investigation’ findings/reports.
More ‘freelancing’ on the part of a ‘Type 1 IHC’ Hotshot crew… which eventually led to some ‘trouble’.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The Cedar Fire made a major run on Father’s Day
>> that impressed even veteran WFF’s.
>>
>> From someone that was there for 2 weeks…
“The southwest corner was not hard lined but contained within US 73 and US 60 in the PJ. It would put a small column up now and then as it burned out to fuel change or with an outflow then go out, it was monitored from the road/air. I thought it was a sound strategy for the area. Maybe they were cold trailing or putting in line there once the team left, I don’t know.”
Keyphrase: “Once the team left”
If the other statement above is true… then it really does look like they might have just been waiting for the IMT who had been ‘warning’ them NOT to do certain things to ‘leave’… so they could then get back to ‘freelancing’ and do whatever THEY wanted to do.
The interesting part of both the 24 and the 72 hour report(s) is that they BOTH contain the same exact statement regarding WHERE they were actually ‘working’ just before they had to ‘retreat’ into what they *thought* was ‘safe black’…
“They moved into a previously burned area and deployed their fire shelters.”
So… if they had to ‘MOVE INTO’ a ‘previously burned area’… then that means they were NOT ALREADY in a ‘previously burned area’ when they were doing whatever it was they were trying to do that afternoon.
So if they were NOT in a ‘previously burned area’ when they realized they better get their asses BACK INTO one… it seems reasonable to assume that they were building ‘indirect line’ in an ‘unburned area’ when trouble hit.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Regarding your SAIT versus CRAP question,
>> the CRAP seems to be strictly a USFS thing and
>> because this was a BIA fire, they can use whatever
>> investigative process they want.
Thank you.
Actually… after doing some more ‘digging’ about this… it DOES seem that the new ‘CRAP’ protocol is/was specifically designed by USFS employees John Phipps and Ivan Pupulidy for accidents/incidents that fall direcly into the lap of the ‘United States Department of Agriculture ( USDA ) – US Forestry Service ( USFS )’.
But as for the second part of your statement about what the ‘United States Department of the Interior ( DOI ) – Bureau of Indian Affairs ( BIA ) – Wildland Division’ is or isn’t supposed to do… I did some digging and, as it turns out, they CANNOT just (quote) “use whatever process they want”.
Turns out that regardless of what USFS does… BIA is REQUIRED to use the SAI protocol ( the OLDER version ) when investigating accidents/near-misses on THEIR ‘turf’.
Turns out that it is all ‘spelled out’ ( for BIA Wildland Division ) in the following document.
Bureau of Indian Affairs
Wildland Fire Management Operations Guide
Chatper 17 – Reviews and Investigations
http://bia.gov/cs/groups/xnifc/documents/text/idc013077.pdf
BIA still uses the ‘old style’ “Special Accident Investigation” ( SAI ) protocol which REQUIRES that TWO documents come out of the ‘investigation’.
1. A ‘Factual Report’ ( FR ) for public dissemination and reference.
2. A ( separate ) ‘Management Evaluation Report’ ( MER ) for ‘internal consumption’ only that contains ALL of the ‘details’ so that ‘Management’ can make procedural changes, if necessary.
And according to THEIR ‘Wildland Operations Guide’… BOTH of these ( separate ) reports are due within 45 days following an incident.
Unlike the new USFS ‘CRAP’ protocol… which seems to be totally ‘open ended’ as far as ‘deadlines’ go.
There is still NO ‘final’ report from John Phipps, lead investigator, regarding the deaths in Twisp last year.
The ‘Wildfire Lessons Learned’ site for Twisp still ONLY has the ‘Fatalities announcement’, a ’72 hour report’, and a subsequent ‘Status report’ which ‘promised’ a ‘Final report’ and a ‘Lessons Learned’ document… but neither one has actually appeared there even as of this writing ( almost a YEAR later ).
From the US Forestry Service’s own ‘announcement’, on their own website, about using the new “Coordinated Response Protocol” ( CRP ) to investigate the deaths of the 3 US Forestry employees at the Twisp Fire, on August 19, 2015…
————————————————
The U.S. Forest Service has used the CRP since June, 2014 to manage response activities for accidents significant enough to warrant a Chief’s level review. It was developed to enable the U.S. Forest Service to learn as much as possible from tragic events while minimizing the impact of investigations and the information or data collection process on survivors and witnesses. The CRP includes a Learning Review that replaces the Serious Accident Investigation Process.
The CRP is being led by John Phipps, who currently serves as Station Director of the U.S. Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Station in Fort Collins, Colorado.
“The goal of the CRP is to ensure that all of the agencies and organizations that have roles and responsibilities in regard to this accident are able to fulfill them in a way that does no further harm to those involved in this tragedy,” said Phipps.
—————————————————–
So the ‘essence’ of this new CR(A)P ( as per both Phipps and author Pupulidy ) is really to just…
“Find out as much as we can… and ‘maybe’ learn something… but ONLY as long as we don’t BOTHER people too much”.
Followup…
Here is the actual ‘statement’ that was initially making me scratch my head…
The USFS press release said ( specifically )…
“The CRP includes a Learning Review that REPLACES the Serious Accident Investigation Process.”
That ‘implies’ that anyone ( currently ) using a “Special Accident Investigation Process’ for ‘investigating incidents’ is SUPPOSED to REPLACE that process with the new CRAP thing. Toot sweet.
What that ‘press release’ SHOULD have said was…
“The CRP includes a Learning Review that replaces the Serious Accident Investigation Process… but ONLY for investigations being conducted by the USDA US Forestry Service.”
In other words… US Forestry and NWCG do not OWN the acronym ‘SAI’. They never have.
Across the hall ( or across the street ) in Washington, the US Department of the Interior – Bureau of Indian Affairs – Wildland Division was NEVER using the same ‘Operations Guide’ for Wildland Operations as USFS.
They have their OWN ‘Wildfire Firefighting Operations Manual’… and it has its OWN codified section defining ( in detail ) what THEY think a “Serious Accident Investigation Process” looks like… and THAT is the ‘playbook’ that THEY operate by.
So until BIA changes ‘Chapter 17’ of their OWN ‘Wildland Firefighting Operations Manual’… they will continue to be REQUIRED to use the ‘older’ 2-separate-report SAI approach to accidents/investigations.
What’s REALLY bizarre about all this is that regardless of the ‘road taken’ to perform what is, essentially, the same simple thing ( a good INVESTIGATION )… the TARGET REPOSITORY for ALL of this ‘CRAP’ is the SAME.
The United States Department of Agriculture ( USDA ) US Forestry Service ( USFS ) “Wildland Firefighting Lessons Learned Center”.
Yep. Even the BIA “Wildland Operations Guide” says, flat out, that when BIA is done with their own old-style SAI investigations… the ‘Factual Report’ ( but NOT the more-detailed Management Report ) is SUPPOSED to be ‘published’ at the USDA USFS “Wildland Firefighting Lessons Learned Center”.
That’s the program currently run by Brit Rosso, who just helped develop the ( now completed? As of June 30, 2016? ) ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride’… and the ‘Wildland Lessons Learned’ Servers themselves are physically located at the USFS New Mexico facility whose ‘Director’ is now John Burfiend… the ‘Air Attack’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire who ignored the frantic radio calls from the Granite Mountain Hotshots for more than 2 and 1/2 minutes until being ORDERED ( by OPS1 Todd Abel ) to respond to them.
So until BIA rewrites their own ‘Operations Guide’… the USFS ‘Wildland Firefighting Lessons Learned Center’ is going to continually be this weird ‘mix’ of different documents being produced by different ‘Accident Investigation Protocols’.
Your tax dollars at work.
WTKTT,
You posted: “What’s REALLY bizarre about all this is that regardless of the ‘road taken’ to perform what is, essentially, the same simple thing ( a good INVESTIGATION )… the TARGET REPOSITORY for ALL of this ‘CRAP’ is the SAME.
The United States Department of Agriculture ( USDA ) US Forestry Service ( USFS ) “Wildland Firefighting Lessons Learned Center”.”
The eventual or partial repository will be the Widland Fire LLC, however, the Management Evaluation Report (MER) is strictly for management at the Washington Office and the various Regional Offices throughout the country and those conclusions, recommendations, etc. are rarely shared with those that matter, the WFF’s and Supervisors in the field and on the firelines. The ones that could most benefit from that information.
And if it is a Federal fire and there is a fatality or heavy losses of structures and it has the potential of ‘going to court,’ then there is a third repository – that State’s U.S. Attorney’s Office.
WTKTT,
You posted: “So… if they had to ‘MOVE INTO’ a ‘previously burned area’… then that means they were NOT ALREADY in a ‘previously burned area’ when they were doing whatever it was they were trying to do that afternoon.
“So if they were NOT in a ‘previously burned area’ when they realized they better get their asses BACK INTO one… it seems reasonable to assume that they were building ‘indirect line’ in an ‘unburned area’ when trouble hit.”
They were in what is referred to as a ‘DIRTY BURN’ that would be comparable to a checkerboard or burned, unburned, partially burned, etc. area with likely pockets of good, clean black that would suffice as either a Temporary Refuge Area (TRA) or a Safety Zone and pockets of green and/or partially burned surface and aerial fuels.
And if they had predesignated Safe Areas, did they allow for the eventual aggressive fire behavior that ensued as a result of the intense outflow winds funneling down those steep sided drainages and chutes that bisect and criss-cross throughout that entire area.? It appears not.
Thankfully, the outcome was as good as it was.
Therefore, I believe that it is unreasonable to assume that they were “‘building indirect line’ in an ‘unburned area’ when trouble hit.”
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on July 6, 2016 at 2:03 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Thankfully, the outcome was as good
>> as it was.
Yes. No question. That’s all the community needed was another pile of ‘deaths’ right on the doorstep of the anniversary of “the greatest blunder in the history of wildland firefighting”.
And thank you for the ‘detail’ above.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Therefore, I believe that it is unreasonable
>> to assume that they were “‘building indirect
>> line’ in an ‘unburned area’ when trouble hit.”
I Copy.
Maybe more like ‘premature’ instead of ‘unreasonable’… but the bottom line is that no one has said WHAT they were doing ( or even trying to do ), and WHERE… or WHO told them to be doing it.
That all remains to be known.
Were they actually “sticking their necks out” and almost got a head chop ( and if so… whose DECISION was that? )… or was it truly an ‘unforseen’ event and they were just ‘lucky’?
We shall see, I guess ( and the wildland community deserves to KNOW which it was ).
Not to lecture you WTKTT but this is time of year from the end of June thru mid to late July that seems to be the largest Fatality Fires on record.
Yarnell 19, South Canyon 14, Rattlesnake 15 and others. between June 30 and July 9th.
All the more reason these Navajo Type 1 IHC should have probably been paying closer attention to the weather, and their surroundings.
Again… I’m glad the body count didn’t go higher… but is sounds like it ALMOST did.
**
** DUELING AUTHORS
Around 8:30 PM this evening, the ‘Arizona Week’ television show on the ‘Arizona Public Media’ channel devoted their entire 30 minute weekly program to on-camera interviews with the authors of BOTH of the books that were published back in the first week of May.
“My Lost Brothers” – by Brendan McDonough ( with co-author Stephen Talty ).
“The Fire Line” – By New York Times Arizona correspondent Fernanda Santos.
As soon as the show had aired ( live, tonight )… the whole thing was posted online.
Just another ‘softball interview’ for Brendan… and BOTH authors admit on-camera that their books were never intended to be about the actual ‘Yarnell’ fire at all.
About the only other thing I can say after watching this entire program is… I hope Brendan continues to get the ‘help’ that he needs… and deserves.
Here is a link to a video of the entire 30 minute program…
Arizona Public Media
Show Name: Arizona Week
Program Title: Three Years After Yarnell Fire, Sense of Loss Lingers
First Aired: July 1, 2016 – 8:00 PM
https://news.azpm.org/p/nature-news/2016/7/1/91064-three-years-after-yarnell-fire-sense-of-loss-lingers/
And in case anyone is ‘keeping score’ on the ‘commercial ventures’ as this rolling train-wreck that is the Yarnell Hill Fire now LEAVES the train station with the signpost “3rd anniversary”….
1. Book 1 – “On the Burning Edge” – by Kyle Dickman.
Not really ABOUT the Yarnell Hill Fire at all.
2. Book 2 – “The Fire Line” – by Fernanda Santos
Not really ABOUT the Yarnell Hill Fire at all.
3. Book 3 – “My Lost Brothers” – by Brendan McDonough
Not really ABOUT the Yarnell Hill Fire at all.
4.. 50+ million ( MILLION ) dollar move – “Granite Mountain” – already filming.
Not really ABOUT the Yarnell Hill Fire at all.
good way to begin the weekend 🙂
Congress foia came in and it squashes some locals’ accounts with documented facts-
The Congress library’s pc are up and down so just wanted to state by what I am seeing I need to look other areas- and touch base with dairy area contractor again- check his photo times-
Something has to be done not only for the grunts but some chiefs too-
They risk their lives in a way I never got to know or imagine had I not got these FOIAS-
God bless the men and women on the line as Donut said it—
really. I never knew- and maybe this movie can not only bring the firefighters to the forefront but maybe some significant changes can be made for better safety and other areas-
**
** CEDAR CREEK FIRE DEPLOYMENT
**
** 24 HOUR REPORT NOT AVAILABLE
The Cedar Creek Fire Deployment 24 hour report is now available at Wildfire Lessons Learned Center…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=46244496-12cf-4333-84f6-3b3084d06c34
Nothing ‘new’ here… except maybe for the fact that we are now learning the ‘deployment’ took place in a ‘previously burned area’…
———————————————————
Cedar Fire Shelter Deployment 24 Hour Report
TO: Bryan Bowker, Regional Director Western Region
FROM: Nona Tuchawena, Superintendent, Fort Apache Agency
SUBJECT: Cedar Fire Shelter Deployment 24 Hour Preliminary Report
THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PRELIMINARY AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE
LOCATION: Cedar Fire
DATE OF OCCURANCE: June 28, 2016
TIME OF OCCURANCE: 1615
LOCAL AGENCY ADMINISTRATOR Nona Tuchawena, Fort Apache Agency Superintendent
ACTIVITY
:
Six members of the Navajo Interagency Hotshot Crew deployed fire shelters when a sudden change in fire activity occurred They moved into a previously burned area and deployed their fire shelters
.
All of the firefighters were able to walk out of the fire area and were transported to Summit Healthcare in Show Low.
They were treated and released that evening.
The Bureau of Indian Affairs initiated a Serious Accident Investi gation Team, led by Jon Rollins, Chief Investigator National Park Service
They will report to Western Region, Fort Apache Agency June 30
.
They will conduct a comprehensive investigation on contributing factors of the deployment
.
NUMBER OF INJURIES: Six were evaluated for smoke inhalation
PROPERTY DAMAGE: Six fire shelters
RELATED SAFETY REVIEW TOPICS FOR FIELD USE: Not Known
cc:
Robert Lacapa, Fort Apache Forest Manager;
Leon Ben, Western Regional Forester;
Carlos Noise, Western Region Fire Management Officer;
Aaron Baldwin, Branch Chief, Branch of Wildland Fire Management;
Joel Kerley, Aviation & Safety Director,
Dalan Romero, Fire Operations Director
———————————————————
Whoops… bad typo in the TITLE of the previous post.
I typed ‘NOT’ instead of ‘NOW’.
Should have been this…
** CEDAR CREEK FIRE DEPLOYMENT
**
** 24 HOUR REPORT NOW AVAILABLE
Normal information—-
Smoke Inhalation is normal in a situation like this not much different than pulling into a safety Zone with fire all around you. Nothing new here most have a head ache and move on.
The damaged Fire shelters are simply I believe because they were used not burned.
This may be another of those deploy even though you are in a good safety Zone.
Deploying will not reduce the smoke Inhalation. Could have reduced some of the heat but so could distance deeper into the black
We will have to see what the size of the Black area was. This fire was fairly big by the time of this deployment.
Hopefully… this turns out to be just a case where going into the shelters was more of a ‘better safe than sorry’ move than an actual life-or-death scenario.
But what I don’t get is everyone still describing the ‘investigation’ as a SAIT. There was NO SAIT for the Twisp investigation. That was John Phipps’ and Ivan Pupulidy’s CRP accident investigation protocol. So is BIA still using the SAIT protocol and only USFS has ‘officially’ switched to the CRP approach to ‘investigations’?
Could very well be but they are under the department of interior which is part of NIFC which sends out the investigation teams.
It may just be a miss stated or on near misses with deployment they may still be using the SAIT and the CRP for Fatalities.
Your Guess is as good as mine ??????????????
Got a little more info from a friend.
The Squad was mopping up in some dirty black.
Understory unburned tops. A Micro burst small area hit where they were and ignited unburned fuel and reignited hot areas.
So was not all clean black and they were In the burned area and got cut off a real accident based on the information. Thought they had a good place to retreat to but was not good enough so they deployed.
All happened in a 15 Min. period.
This was one of those unexpected incidents but they had a plan and a place to fall back to. Used the shelters to reduce the heat.
The Micro burst was evidently not forecast or predicted.
Woops typing at the same time
Good information. Thank you.
Bob,
Thanks for chasing this down. I’ve often wondered about the term “good black.” Now I see that not all black is good. In a situation like this with an understory/leaf litter fire, is any spot under the trees really safe? It looked like there were areas of the Cedar fire that did have some areas of crown fire as well, although it’s hard to tell what size the trees were from the footage I saw. How do you define or create good black in a fire like that?
BTW, I know that the shelters are quite expensive, and I am ambivalent about whether they increase or decrease safe behavior, but if they do carry them, I think it’s good to have some people using them. I used to work in an area that had emergency showers. We were told how to use them, but warned that they were fed by barrels of fetid water that was only changed once every few years, and there were no sewers to collect the water, so the people on lower floors would hate you forever unless you had a really good reason to use them. Sadly, the only time I was ever around when they really should have been used, the person delayed until the chemical burn was quite serious. The water wasn’t that bad, BTW, and it was mopped up before it leaked downstairs. After that we all knew the truth, so everyone who witnessed that has a more realistic and balanced idea of how to use that equipment.
I feel like WLFFs are warned so much about not using the shelter (automatic investigation, national news reports, etc) that they might delay. Also, if you’re going to continue to rely on them, it’s good to have people around who used them under real world conditions to relate their experiences to others. It doesn’t look like those thin plastic ones, used in a light breeze in full daylight, without the roar of a blowup, are a good stand-in for the real thing.
I wonder if these guys will be more likely to keep their sleeves rolled down and their gloves on after their experiences.
The thin plastic ones you refer to are only training dummy type shelters the green ones they can be used over and over for training. The real ones have a tinfoil cover outer shell and non flammable material that is sewn together to make a (PUPTENT) type of cover.
My best way to explain dirty black is a fire backing down the hill or smoldering under brush and small trees that can be quite extensive in what I called over story that was unburned or smoldering fuel that can flame up with wind. The Microburst is a down flow wind that hits a small area (Micro) with a strong wind could also create small dust devils or fire swirls out of nowhere.
This is all inside the line but must be moped up as well as line put in. It can be a harry situation and you need to take it a little at a time with a good retreat plan. Look out and safety area.
Good Black is totally burned and open area no island of unburned fuel or unburned canopy within it.
The Cedar Fire deployment. Navajo HS were mopping up spots in dirty black on a slope on SW section of the fire. A MICROBURST flared up and re-ignited hot areas and spots, thought they had a good place to go, however, not good enough, so used shelters. All this in 15 minutes.
Thank you.
Below is the Weather Underground June 28, 2016 radar imagery link. The Navajo HS burnover occurred the afternoon of 28 June 2013. “The recent shelter deployment came two days before the three-year anniversary of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire” according to a 29 June 2016 azcentral article titled ‘Officials ID hotshot crew that deployed emergency fire shelters at Cedar Fire.”
The Cedar Fire was south of Show Low, AZ.
Notice the rapid and intense activity in red, orange, and yellow as the weather system advects horizontally. Very intense outflow winds would be associated with these radar colors.
https://www.wunderground.com/weather-radar/united-states/az/munds-park/fsx/history/?date=2016-06-28
It’s a bit difficult to view the times at the top of the screen as these develop and pass.
Thank you ( again ).
Here is a public ‘YouTube’ video of the same June 28, 2016 Arizona radar loop, which can be ‘paused’…
http://youtu.be/9_BSNK5-T-s
Phoenix ( Arizona ) time ( PST ) is 2 hours BEHIND Central Daylight Time ( CDT on the radar loop ).
From the 24-hour report at the ‘Wildland Lessons Learned’ center site…
Location: Cedar Fire
Date of occurrence: June 28, 2016
Time of occurrence: 1615 ( 4:15 PM Phoenix time (PST) )
So when it says ’06:00 PM CDT’ on the radar loop it is 1600 ( 4:00 PM ) Phoenix ( PST ) time.
That is just 15 minutes before the deployment.
Sure enough… there are ‘popup storms’ ( yellows and oranges ) appearing there right below ‘Show Low’ and over the ‘footprint’ of the ‘Cedar Creek Fire’ at that exact time.
So maybe the ‘ramp down’ that day really did matter in this ‘deployment’.
Was ANYBODY actually watching the WEATHER ( sic: Radar ) during/after this ‘rampdown’?
Also… someone apparently ‘in the know’ left a comment over on Bill Gabbert’s ‘Wildfire Today’ site saying the ‘ramp down’ was even more fucked up than was previously thought.
Something about a huge argument about ‘moving the ICP’ during the ramp down and then the ‘Type 3’ team that was supposed to take over from the ‘Type 1’ just refused to do so…. leaving an absolute ‘skeleton staff’ to manage the 44,000 acre fire.
Holy ‘potential death from above’, Batman!
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/06/29/update-on-the-condition-of-the-firefighters-who-deployed-fire-shelters-on-the-cedar-fire/
————————————————
On June 30, 2016 at 4:37 am, Bob said…
My understanding was that a Type 3 Team was to follow the Type 1 Team on the Cedar Fire. However, the Agency wanted the Type 3 Team to move from the school ICP to White River dustbowl ICP location. Some believe that was to facilitate additional BIA contractor and personnel hiring. Heated discussions regarding the proposed move of the ICP.
In the end, Type 3 Team decided not to accept the assignment. That left the Type 1 Team passing the fire to the Agency with the 91% reduction of staff, and most Logistics demobed (showers, caterers, etc). All functions likely were running at minimal staffing, from Plans to Ops to Safety Officers.
————————————————
**
** YARNELL FIRE CHIEF BEN PALM SHOWED AUTHOR FERNANDA SANTOS
** HIS ‘MAP’ OF THE ‘SUPPOSED’ GRANT-FUNDED FIREBREAKS
The ‘Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute’ is that ‘organization’ that some of the widows of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots started with the paltry amount of ‘settlement’ dollars they got from Arizona Forestry.
They really don’t actually DO anything at all.
It’s actually nothing but a ‘BLOG’ where they just post articles that suit THEIR ‘agenda’… like Holly Neill’s comments about InvestigativeMEDIA articles and whatnot.
Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute
Founding Member – Juliann Aschcraft ( widow of GM Hotshot Andrews Ashcraft )
Founding Member – Deborah Pfingston ( Mother of GM hotshot Andrew Ashcraft )
Founding Member – Roxnne Warneke ( widow of GM Hotshot Billy Warneke )
Board of Directors
Gary Northam – Embry Riddle University teacher. Former pilot.
William Waldock – Professor of Safety Sciences at Embry Riddle University.
Victoria Boswell – Project Manager for private company ‘Automatic Data Processing’, LLC.
Doug Harwood – Lives in Prescott. Former Granite Mountain hotshot. 2004 to 2007.
Holly Neill – ( Yep, same one ). Just a former firefighter.
Darrell Willis – Former Prescott Fire Chief and former Prescott Wildland Divison Chief.
But here is an interesting posting on their ‘Communications’ page.
They got their ‘friend’ and New York Times correspondent-turned-author Fernanda Santos to send her some ‘comments’ about the Tenderfoot fire.
From their ‘Communications’ page ( just a BLOG )…
http://wfgi.org/category/communications/
———————————————————————————
BLOG post Title: Bestselling author Fernanda Santos shares her thoughts on the Tenderfoot Fire and WFGI
Bestselling author and New York Times editor Fernanda Santos shares her thoughts, and experience with WFGI Founders Juliann, Deborah, and Roxanne, and her reaction to the Tenderfoot Fire in Yarnell, Az 2016.
Fernanda Santos said…
Hi, everyone. Another wildfire burned in Yarnell, Ariz., last week, almost three years to the day that a fire destroyed much of the town and killed 19 firefighters from the same crew, the Granite Mountain Hotshots, whose story I tell in The Fire Line. Again, I packed my bags and drove up the mountain from my home in Phoenix. I ended up at the grade school in neighboring Peeples Valley, which doubled as incident command post, just as it did in 2013.
One of the first people I bumped into was Ben Palm, the fire chief in Yarnell. He had in his hands a map of the town. He laid it on a table and pointed to a thick red line traced along its eastern edge – fuel breaks carved in the thick vegetation. As soon as Ben took the helm of the department, four months after the deadly fire, he got some federal and state grants to pay for the tough task of building these fuel breaks.
The breaks helped saved Yarnell this time. They stopped the flames before the flames could swallow the the town, as they did on June 30, 2013.
———————————————————————————
From the article…
He ( Chief Ben Palm ) had in his hands a map of the town. He laid it on a table and pointed to a thick red line traced along its eastern edge – fuel breaks carved in the thick vegetation.
A ‘thick line traced along its ( Yarnell’s ) eastern edge”.
There is still absolutely NO EVIDENCE that these ‘fuel breaks’ ever existed prior to June 8, 2016.
ALL photographic and video evidence from June 8, 2016 shows, without a doubt, that the manual ‘burnouts’ on the ‘eastern edge’ of Yarnell were ALL started right ther in the ‘vegetation’ at the very BACKS of the property lots there on the ‘eastern edge’ of Yarnell ( on Crest Way ).
If Chief Ben Palm was showing Fernanda Santos this MAP… indicating WHERE he ( supposedly ) spent all the GRANT money he received… then that MAP should still EXIST, right?
What’s even more astounding is that this Fernanda Santos person ( supposedly an employee of the New York Time News organization ) apparently just BELIEVED what Chief Ben Palm was showing her… just because something was ‘drawn’ on a map… and she lifted not ONE finger to ‘verify’ whether what she was being told was even TRUE, or not.
Nice work, Fernanda.
Actually… Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm should just publish a ‘copy’ of this MAP he is now known to have had of WHERE he says all the ‘Grant Money’ was spent on the Yarnell Fire Department Web site… so the people he serves can SEE where he SAYS he spent the money.
That should probably be a ‘requirement’ for all this ‘fuels abatement’ money that is being handed out to these local fire departments/districts.
They should ALL be ‘required’ to post PUBLIC copies of the ‘maps’ that show where the money is being spent, and where the work is being done, color-coded to show stages of completion.
That way… the people who LIVE in these areas and who are SERVED by these ‘fire agencies’ can do their own ‘reality check’ and see if the money IS being spent for what it is supposed to be spent on… and not just ( perhaps ) ‘new swimming pools’ appearing behind the houses of the local fire people.
I just asked for it via email WWTKTT- THE MAP Santos saw
Just tell Chief Ben Palm he can ‘save the stamp’… and he can just go ahead and PUBLISH that MAP we know now he had showing exactly WHERE all these ‘100 foot-wide graded fuel breaks’ were supposed to ( already ) be, on June 8, 2016 right on the Yarnell Fire Department website.
I’m sure a LOT of people would like to ‘see it’ ( that MAP )… and see exactly WHERE all that grant $$$ MONEY was ( supposedly ) spent.
Joy—- Ask your contacts that live right there if there was a fire break put in.
Either cut brush or cat line. if so what was the width. That would be quite easy you have contact with the people who lost their Garage don’t you?
The real test is from the Home owners right there.
Bob and wwtktt…its my bday and a holiday weekend so I will be off here a bit but to answer you…in all my crest way homeowners interviews no fire breaks were ever done in decades there however yarnell water company claims they are a private organization and do not have to answer my questions..happy fourth to all and to you sonny wherever you are in Mexico
Thank you, Joy. Yes… I remember you already saying you have spoken to many of the homeowners on Crest Way… and that NONE of them have any idea what this Chief Ben Palm guy is talking about.
If all that GRANT money was NOT spent on what Palm is trying to say it was spent on… then WHERE did the MONEY go?
Oh… forgot to say… Happy Birthday! I hope it’s a good one… and many happy returns!
Same from me——–HAVE A GREAT DAY.
oh thank you both- I am going to take this foia and double check on eyewitness accounts times and then after my long ass hike today than r and r so after my event tonight if I am still up and at it I will try and reach JB—keep you posted as I know it—probably via email–k.
leaving post office now
meant library— leaving library and headed to post office than hike
>> Joy said…
>>
>> yarnell water company claims
>> they are a private organization
>> and do not have to answer my
>> questions..
That’s correct. Most ‘water companies’ are, in fact, private companies. Even the largest ones. Just like phone and electric companies. They are considered PUBLIC Utilities… and, as such, are HIGHLY Regulated… but in the USA… the ‘ownership’ generally remains private ( shareholders and all that jazz ).
Joy, Happy Birthday to you.
Robert the Second says
JULY 1, 2016 AT 11:49 PM
Joy, Happy Birthday to you.
MY REPLY- thank you RTS…just saw this…week later…wow that week flew by—it was Otis’s bday too 🙂
By the way… I just thought I would point out something being said
by the Ashcraft, Warneke, Pfingston group about their ‘friend’, Fernanda Santos.
Notice the use of the phrase “Bestselling author” in their online page…
———————————————————————————
BLOG post Title: Bestselling author Fernanda Santos shares her thoughts on the Tenderfoot Fire and WFGI
Bestselling author and New York Times editor Fernanda Santos shares her thoughts, and experience with WFGI Founders Juliann, Deborah, and Roxanne, and her reaction to the Tenderfoot Fire in Yarnell, Az 2016.
———————————————————-
Her book about Yarnell ( which contains too many errors and inaccuracies to even begin to list here ) was ONLY a ‘bestselling’ book at AMAZON, and ONLY for about 24 hours one day, and ONLY in a very specific and limited ‘category’… ‘Firefighting and Wildfire Prevention’.
That book has never gotten anywhere NEAR the actual “New York Times bestseller’ list.
**
** INTERESTING LINKS APPEARING TODAY
As this 3rd anniversary plays out… the day isn’t over yet and there are already some important and interesting things being ‘posted’ out on the InterWeb.
First and foremost… InvestigativeMEDIA has published an amazing article FULL of ‘links’ and ‘evidence’ to simply REMIND us all what an absolute rolling train wreck this whole ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ has been since day one… and CONTINUES to be as it limps into this train station with the sign ‘Third Anniversary’ on the platform…
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: Questions remain three years after Yarnell Hill Fire disaster
Published: June 30, 2016 – By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/questions-remain-three-years-after-yarnell-hill-fire-disaster/
And now the MOVIE people seem to have taken their ‘safeties’ off today, and amidst the blur of ‘social media’ crap they are all posting there is actually some interesting INFORMATION emerging about THAT ‘endeavor’.
Executive Producer Ellen Schwartz posted a photo of ex-GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch, who they have hired to actually play the role of Brandon’s old friend ( and deceased GM hotshot ) Garret Zuppiger. She is using that photo of ex-GM Hotshot-turned-movie-actor Brandon Bunch as her ‘tribute’ to the 19 deceased Hotshots… and it is HERE…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHR7W-VAEAz/?taken-by=ellenhschwartz
Producer Schwartz didn’t seem to care that her frickin’ Smartphone has its GPS on, and her Instagram account is ‘place tagging’ her uploaded photos… so this image of Brandon Bunch actually ‘on the set’ was taken while they were filming in Cerrillos, New Mexico. The ‘new information’ being seen in this photo is that we are now seeing ‘evidence’ that at least they are doing SOME filming in a place that ALMOST resembles Arizona.
Also notice that the ‘props’ people didn’t even bother to take one single moment to ‘dirty up’ either Brandon Bunch’s HELMET or his FIELD PACK. Both of them still look like they were purchased THAT MORNING. Not one single scratch on that shiny black Helmet with the GM logo on the side. You can almost see your face in it. I thought these Hollywood props people were better than that.
I still wonder if ANY of these ‘producers’… or director Kosinksi… have ANY idea that the man they have hired to play Garrett Zuppiger in their little movie is the same ex-GM Hoshot who said ( in Kyle Dickman’s book )…
——————————————————————–
Brandon Bunch had been with Granite Mountain since 2010, the crew’s second year as hotshots.
Eric Marsh remained an enigma to him.
Bunch never felt he had a good read on his superintendent, but then, few people who worked with him did. One former colleague called him “an onion with layers he doesn’t let most people see”.
The more seasons Bunch worked for Granite Mountain, the more he felt that under Marsh’s command, the hotshots were ALWAYS having to PROVE themselves.
——————————————————————–
SIDENOTE: Brandon Bunch was never officially interviewed by ANY ‘investigators’. We can see now in emails that Mike Dudley and Jim Karels and the SAIT never even WANTED to talk to any of them. They were actually TOLD ( by USFS employees that weren’t even on the SAIT team ) to ‘not go there’. ADOSH actually tried… and sent emails and letters out to SCORES of ex-GM Hotshots requesting to just ‘talk’ to them… but was NEVER able to interview ANY ex-GM Hoshots.
( Continued next ‘Reply’ due to the ‘max 2 links per message’ rule )…
( Continued from previous message )…
Actor Josh Brolin himself ( playing Eric Marsh in this ‘movie’ thing ), is addicted to Instagram… and he posted his own ‘tribute’ photo today…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHSOIMXjUKc/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
What is ‘interesting’ is the ‘scene’ that Brolin describes taking place there on the movie set WHILE he was updating his Instagram account.
Here is what actor Brolin appears to have been typing into his smartphone WHILE some kind of ‘remembrance ceremony’ was taking place there on the movie set…
—————————————————————–
joshbrolin writes…
As we are up here simulating that fateful day, we lay our heads in honor and respect of those fallen.
The fallen names of Granite Mountain Hotshots read one by one by Granite Mountain Patrick McCarty.
Donut to my left as I write this out.
Our inexhaustible respect for those who risk their lives — invisible heroes — for us, the common men, women and children of this country: thank you from the bottom of our hearts.
Tags…
@us_hotshots @wildland_firefighters @wildlandfirefighting #ripgranitemountainhotshots #respect #oneminuteofsilenceplease
—————————————————————–
Couple of ‘interesting’ things in this short message…
1. Total ‘confirmation’ from Brolin that ex-GM Hotshot Patrick McCarty has ALSO been ‘hired’ to be in this movie, along with ex-GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch. Brolin confirms McCarty was ‘doing the remembrance’ thing right there on the set.
2. “Donut to my left as I write this out”
Confirmation from Brolin that Brendan McDonough himself spent this 3rd anniversary right there on the ‘movie set’?
3. As we are up here simulating that fateful day
Confirmation from Brolin that they really ARE going to try and ‘pretend’ that the Mt. Pajarito Ski Resort and the “Valles Caldera” area passes for ‘Yarnell’, and the place where they all died?
It looks NOTHING like Yarnell, Arizona.
( Continued from previous message )…
Another ‘interesting’ link from today.
The ‘Daily Courier’ masquerading as a ‘news organization’ again.
They publish an ‘incorrect’ timeline for the fire events themselves, and only mention that there was ONE ‘investigation’… the SAIT… and that the findings were that “no one did anything wrong”.
No mention whatsoever that Arizona’s own ‘Occupational Safety and Health’ agency found the direct opposite… and issued HISTORIC citations and fines for the 19 deaths that resulted from such a chaotic and mismanaged workplace. The MOST ‘fines’ they were even ALLOWED to issue, by law.
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2016/jun/30/community-commemorates-3-year-mark-yarnell-hill-wi/
**
** NEW INFORMATION REGARDING ERIC MARSH’S CELLPHONE
As this ‘third anniversary’ approaches… the emotionally-obese and obsessed mainstream media has already gotten a ‘jump’ on the obligatory ‘feature stories’.
Joy already pointed out the following article/interview with Ms. Amanda Beno Marsh that just appeared in the ‘Arizona Republic’.
It’s just another emotion-packed re-telling of what it was like for Amanda to “get the news” on June 30, 2013… and what her life with Eric had been like… but there actually ARE a few ‘confirmations’ about other things in this article… and even some ‘new’ information about that ‘secret’ meeting Amanda had in the park in downtown Prescott… when some (still) mysterious firefighter ‘slipped’ Eric’s cellphone back to her.
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: Holding on to what was theirs: A Granite Mountain Hotshot widow’s story
Published: 4:02 a.m. MST June 26, 2016 – By: Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-best-reads/2016/06/26/granite-mountain-hotshot-widows-story/85890188/
Confirmation that Amanda and Eric had, in fact, met a 12-step meeting in March of 2007. This is not ‘news’. New York Times Phoenix correspondent-turned-author Fernanda Santos talked about this in her book, published 2 months ago… but it is a ‘confirmation’.
————————————————————————————-
They ( she and Eric ) met in a 12-step program.
They had both been drinking a long time, before that. Amanda started when she was 8.
He had been sober seven years; she’d been sober seven months.
————————————————————————————–
What is interesting here, however, is we now see what appears to be another actual ‘confirmation’ of the ‘timeframe’ for when Eric Marsh got himself ‘sober’.
Amanda Marsh says it was 7 years prior to the time they started ‘dating’, after meeting at that 12-step program in 2007 ( circa March ).
The ‘timeline’ as per this recent article…
———————————————————————————————–
2007 – March ( one Friday ) – Amanda listens to Eric talk at the 12-step program. After that meeting, a group from the meeting, including Eric and Amanda, went to a local Denny’s. Eric tells Amanda in the parking lot he will call her by 11:00 AM the next day. He did. They started dating.
2008 – Amanda and Eric are now living together.
2009 – They bought their first house together.
2010 – January – Eric proposes to Amanda. She accepts. They married shortly after that.
————————————————————————————————-
So, according to Amanda, that would put Eric’s achievement of ‘sobriety’ in the year 2000 timeframe.
That is now simply a ‘confirmation’ that the ORDERS seen in Eric Marsh’s 2005 employee evaluation for him to ‘seek treatment or lose your job’ came FIVE years AFTER he had supposedly attained sobriety… and that ‘ultimatum’ coming from Duane Steinbrink in 2005 was NOT because Eric needed to get ‘sober’ at THAT time ( unless he had fallen off the wagon, or something ).
Here is Eric Marsh’s October 10, 2005 ‘Employee Evaluation’ for his performance as ‘Wildland Captain’ for Presoctt’s ‘Crew 7’, when his current supervisor, Duane Steinbrink, gave Eric that ‘ultimatum’.
Steinbrink told Marsh: “Seek ‘treatment’ for your current ‘personal issues’… or lose your job.”
From Eric’s October 10, 2005 ‘Employee Evaluation Report’…
——————————————————————————————
Employee Name: Eric Marsh
Job Title: Wildland Captain
Evaluation Period ( Start ): April 10, 2005
Evaluation Date: October 10, 2005
Department: Fire
Division: Wildland
Employee Signature: Eric Marsh
Supervisor Signature: Duane Steinbrink
Department Head Signature: Darrell Willis
Supervisor’s Narrative on Performance
This is Eric’s six-month evaluation for the position of Wildland Captain. He has many strong points that are needed for the crew to succeed. He is an excellent classroom teacher, and he knows what to do in wildland fire situations. He give good direction to subordinates in furthering their wildland education.
Most of Eric’s supervisory performance expectations meet the requirements.
He needs to learn not to YELL when jobs are not performed to his standards.
On fire assignments the crew seldom meets Eric’s work standards.
Eric needs to work on being NICE.
Eric loses job effectiveness and efficiency by YELLING at the crew and by not
accepting the crews quality of work.
He also needs to learn to assign tasks and allow his subordinates to complete the job without constantly looking over their shoulders. Paperwork is not one of Eric’s strong points. While on assignments he needs to get better at all paperwork associated with wildland firefighting.
Eric becomes very agitated and does not accept positive criticism well.
He blames other people for his misgivings.
Eric’s behavior is unacceptable when reporting to work.
He is un-approachable, grumpy, and will not speak when spoken to.
His paperwork on wildland fires is below standards, but with help this can be overcome.
I do not see Eric as being Superintendent of Crew 7 at this time, but with listed changes, he will continue to function as the Captain of Crew 7.
To help you reach your goals, follow the 6 step plan listed below.
If this plan is NOT followed, you will NOT SUCCEED as a wildland fire captain and DEMOTION may follow.
New Plans / Goals / Training for the Next Rating Period
1. Be nice!
2. Do not YELL when things don’t meet your expectations.
3. Practice all aspects of “the Prescott Way”.
4. Continue with wildland fire training.
5. Contact Employee Assistance Program ( Horizon Care Link @ 866-252-4468 ) to help resolve problems that affect your personal and work life.
6. Meet with your direct supervisor on a MONTHLY basis for the next SIX MONTHS for an evaluation.
——————————————————————————————
Back to the recent article…
It contains just another ‘confirmation’ that neither Eric nor Amanda were particularly religious, and if there were any actual ‘affiliations’… they ( or at least Eric himself ) tended towards ‘Buddhism’ and not ‘Christianity’…
————————————————————————————–
They both grew up Christian, but weren’t much for church now.
( Article photographs show a small statue of ‘Buddha’ on Eric’s grave marker ).
She visits the spot ( where Eric is buried ) often ( at the Pioneer Cemetery in Prescott ).
On a recent visit… She crouched down to line up miniature figures of a Buddha, a paint horse, medals and a can of Spam on Eric’s marker.
————————————————————————————–
More confirmation ( from Amanda ) that Eric Marsh really WAS ‘worried’ whether the GM crew would continue to exist… and Amanda suggests ( in the article ) that he was constantly concerned enough about it that it was affecting his sleep…
————————————————————————————–
The crew was unusual, doing work in a federal system, but run by the city. He worried the crew wouldn’t last. Nearly every night, Amanda would wake to Eric tossing and turning. He figured he could move into a different position with the city if changes came, but he didn’t know what would happen to the rest of the guys.
————————————————————————————–
Next is just more ‘confirmation’ that Amanda Marsh really does seem to be ‘convinced’ that Eric had made it almost all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch, out AHEAD of the crew… and that he was, himself, ‘safe’ before he decided to rejoin Steed and the Crew.
Amanda does not say what her primary reason for believing this is.
As in… whether it is based on what Holly Neill might have been telling her she believes, or the report that Brendan McDonough finally gave to Bill Gabbert at Wildfire today about actually HEARING Marsh say he would be ‘scouting ahead’ to the BSR… or ( perhaps )… BOTH of those ‘sources’ ( or even some ‘other’ unknown ‘source’ ).
She also offers no explanation ( herself ) that even if Eric WAS ‘out ahead of the men’ and at least in a position to act as their ‘forward lookout’ that afternoon… WHY he would have still let them keep coming forward into ‘danger’ and, eventually, their deaths.
————————————————————————————–
The rest of the story would emerge in a series of reports, video snippets and revelations over many months ahead. Eighteen of the hotshots had been atop a ridge outside Yarnell, in a safe, previously burned area. Eric had been apart from them, seemingly near a cleared, fire-safe ranch.
The crew had left the ridge. Eric had left his position to rejoin them. As the crew hiked down through a box canyon matted with scrub oak, bear grass and agave, the wall of flames, pushed by the storm, moved in.
————————————————————————————-
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…
( Continued from previous message )…
This last excerpt from the recent article/inteview with Amanda Marsh is also not ‘news’… but it DOES seem to contain some ‘new information’ regarding the actual CONDITION of Eric Marsh’s cellphone when it was surreptitiously returned to her in that ‘secret’ encounter in the park in downtown Prescott… and it ALSO now contains some interesting NEW information about the TIMING of all this… and WHEN Amanda received certain ‘items’ back… and in what ORDER…
From the article…
————————————————————————————-
One of the first things Amanda got back was his wedding ring.
A partially preserved glove had protected it from the flames.
She slid it onto her ring finger, stacking it with hers.
Many of the families never received any of the personal belongings the men were carrying that day.
As the first investigation into their deaths ramped up, she got back three more things Eric had carried in his shirt pocket.
A different firefighter slipped some of Eric’s personal items to her.
She met him in downtown Prescott, where she was given his spotting mirror, his handheld compass and his cellphone. The mirror and compass were in good shape, and she slipped them in her purse.
She held Eric’s cellphone in her hands and inspected the damage.
It was melted, but it could still flip open.
She tried to power it on. Nothing happened.
She tossed it in a nearby garbage bin.
————————————————————————————-
So if we ‘break this down’… there is actually some VERY interesting ‘new information’ coming out here.
But first, just for reference, here is the actual list of ‘personal effects’ recovered from Eric Marsh, as listed by the Medical Examiner in Eric Marsh’s official autopsy report…
From the Medical Examiner’s report regarding Eric Marsh…
—————————————————————————————-
EXTERNAL EXAMINATION
The body is received in a zippered body pouch secured by evidence seal # 026414.
CLOTHING AND PERSONAL EFFECTS
The body is clad in the items of clothing as detailed in the property inventory list.
1. Remnants of upper part of green pants (size 30-34 regular).
2. Belt with metal buckle with engraving “Granite Mountain” on the top and “Hotshot Crew” on the bottom.
3. Partially preserved front portion of the yellow coat; back portion is completely burnt out.
4. Pair of boots (size 8-1/2 E).
5. Preserved remnant of the black tee shirt with logo “Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew”.
6. Left glove, mostly preserved.
7. Two pair of socks.
8. Gray underwear (size 36-38, Hanes).
9. White metal ring on the left fourth finger with mountain design on outside and engraved letters “MSK” on the inside).
10. Cell phone, mirror and compass in the shirt pocket.
—————————————————————————————-
Now let’s ‘break down’ what the article says Amanda, herself, is now reporting…
“One of the FIRST things Amanda got back was his wedding ring.
A partially preserved glove had protected it from the flames.”
So those are references to Medical Examiner items 9 ( the ring ) and 6 ( left glove ).
Amanda is now saying she got at least THESE two items back almost ‘right away’ following the incident… and very soon after Eric’s autopsy.
Then the article ( Amanda ) says…
“As the first investigation into their deaths ramped up, she got back three more things Eric had carried in his shirt pocket.”
That is now a DIRECT reference to Medical Examiner item 10.
The ‘Cell phone, mirror and compass’ removed from Eric’s shirt pocket at the start of his autopsy, at the SAME time Item 9 ( the ring ) was removed from his finger.
Now notice the TIMING being referred to for just these THREE items….
“As the first investigation into their deaths ramped up…”
That means that while she ( apparently ) got Medical Examiner item 9 ( the ring ) back almost immediately… there was then a mysterious DELAY before she received the same 3 items listed as Medical examiner item(s) 10 ( cellphone, compass and mirror ) which were recovered at the SAME time, and in the SAME examination, as the wedding ring.
And the DELAY was, somehow, related to the ‘ramping up’ of the SAIT investigation itself ( the first investigation ).
It’s more than curious that these same THREE ITEMS ( Medical Examiner items 10 ), apparently were ‘withheld’ for a while, by SOMEONE, and were NOT returned ‘right away’ ( as was item 9 ), even though ALL of those items were recovered from Eric’s body at the same time, at the start of his autopsy.
And then those THREE items recovered from Eric’s shirt pocket then seemed to just ‘travel together’ for this unknown amount of time, until finally being returned to Amanda in that ‘secret encounter’ in the Prescott Courthouse Square… which we now see Amanda describing this way…
“A different firefighter slipped some of Eric’s personal items to her.
She met him in downtown Prescott, where she was given his spotting mirror, his handheld compass and his cellphone.
The mirror and compass were in good shape, and she slipped them in her purse.”
So there are those same THREE items all recovered from Eric’s shirt pocket mysteriously being ‘returned’ to Amanda… but some time AFTER she had already received Eric’s ring back… which was recovered at the Medical Examiner’s office the same time everything else was.
And as for this…
A different firefighter slipped some of Eric’s personal items to her…
Just after the incident itself… Prescott firefighters J.P. Vicente and Ray Maione were the ones officially designated as the ‘family liasons’. It is highly likely that this ‘firefighter’ that Amanda still refuses to name was one of those two. My money would still be on J.P. Vicente ( the same guy who had to have the Police called on him by the Superintendent of the Prescott Pioneer Cemetery ).
And notice the ‘odd’ use of the word ‘slipped’.
Almost as if to suggest this really was some kind of ‘secret meeting’ there in Prescott, happening ‘outside’ of ‘normal channels’… or something. Odd word to use there.
And now we ALSO see ‘new information’ about the actual CONDITION of Eric’s cellphone, which had mysteriously ‘walked out’ of the Medical Examiner’s office WITHOUT entering the YCSO Police ‘chain of evidence’.
“She held Eric’s cellphone in her hands and inspected the damage.
It was melted, but it could still flip open. She tried to power it on. Nothing happened.”
So only NOW we learn that… yes… there was ‘thermal damage’ to the exterior case, but not so bad that it could not still be ‘flipped open’. The plastic ‘hinges’ on this ‘flip-phone’ had NOT ‘melted’… and were still ‘functional’.
Once ‘flipped open’, the damage was also, apparently, not so bad that Amanda did not think it MIGHT have ‘powered on’… and she WAS still able to depress the also-still-intact power switch to ‘try that’.
This was obviously an older-style ‘flip-phone’… and ( like all of these puppies ), the battery leads are quite fragile and it doesn’t take much heat to melt THOSE… but that doesn’t mean the internal circuitry wasn’t still fully functional, or that ‘data’ could still not have been ‘retrieved’ from that device… if it had ever actually entered the ‘chain of evidence’.
The only people qualified to know whether any data ( incuding, perhaps, internal GPS data logs ) could have been retrieved from that cellphone would have been the Arizona Counter Terrorism Information Center ( ACTIC ) people, who had been tasked with trying to retrieve data from ALL of the other cellphones recovered from the deceased firefighters.
That is… at least all the ones that didn’t mysteriously ‘walk out of the Medical Examiner’s office’, like Eric’s had.
So regardless of the CONDITION of Eric Marsh’s cellphone… SOMEONE who had it in their possession ever since it mysteriously ‘disappeard’ from the Medical Examiner’s office the day of Eric’s autopsy… also was SURE that it WAS Eric Marsh’s cellphone.
That’s because whoever had it for that whole time BEFORE it was ‘slipped’ ( her word ) back to Amanda knew damn well WHERE it had come from… and that it was ‘traveling’ along with Eric’s compass and pocket mirror… and it HAD come directly out of Eric’s shirt pocket along with THOSE two ‘items’.
So whoever had it… knew EXACTLY who to ‘slip it back to’… when the time came… but at NO TIME while it was in their possession did they see to it that the YCSO Police investigators had ‘access’ to it.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/questions-remain-three-years-after-yarnell-hill-fire-disaster/
Reading that, that potentially employees are keeping their mouths shut to prevent losing their pension and being blacklisted….
If someone comes to this site and spills all of the true and hidden details, I think we should create a “gofundme” account for them.
I am in for a grand…
Seems so “convenient” that Ms. Marsh tossed the phone in the garbage…
She has a lot invested in being the widow of the YHF hero. But how is this not theft/destruction of evidence? Oh, that’s right, no one did anything wrong.
There is something not quite right here????????????
If you could open the phone would you not at least take it home and charge it to see if it worked or had pictures etc. on it.
Just throw it away seems strange?????????
Being in the Pocket under the body would it melt the plastic????
Bob,
Someone “slipped” her the phone, which should have been saved for evidence. “Evidence of what?” you may well ask. Well, I don’t really know, but I wouldn’t want to cross a person who would arrange this cloak and dagger exchange in rustic downtown Prescott. I might feel like the phone was a hot potato, a responsibility to keep someone else’s secret. I might toss it in some obvious place so it could be recovered by someone I thought might be watching or lost to the dump. Or I might say that’s what I did and keep it safely hidden until it cooled off.
As I spend more time here, the wildland industrial complex is looking less Smokey the Bear and more Opus Dei.
Let me Add Muzzy rumor and only Rumor has it there were things on that phone she did not want made public. If that’s true then maybe she did not throw it away, or did latter???????????
Oh, yuck! Do you mean to say she impeded the investigation into the deaths of 19 firefighters because a guy has pix of his junk or his wife’s goodies on his phone? Unless it’s child porn, grow up! Nobody cares!
Maybe you hit the nail on the head, what was so important for the mysterious firefighter(s) to steal evidence from the middle of the investigation into the deaths of 19 men and then for Amanda Marsh to conceal that evidence, even today?
It probably was child porn. Anyone who is sick enough to post photos of a charred t-shirt from the chest area on her face book and then claim that is proof from God how much heart the crew had is really sick in the head.
A person like that did not throw that phone away…I will bet you anything you want on that score. She treats that charred piece of a t-shirt as a holy relic, a flip phone that can still flip open and still had the data from someone as great as Eric Marsh in her mind…she DID NOT throw that phone away..
On top of everything else…AMANDA MARSH A LIAR AND SHE IS STILL OBSTRUCTING THE INVESTIGATION as of TODAY!
muzzy it was his private phone that was also Half paid for by the City. He could have well been using it to talk to overhead on the fire. That has always been the question on the Hail Mary plan.
He also had the City Issued phone.
Reply to Rocksteady post on June 30, 2016 at 11:25 am
>> Rocksteady said…
>>
>> Seems so “convenient” that Ms. Marsh tossed the
>> phone in the garbage…
Personally, I have a hard time believing that happened.
I am not saying it didn’t… I am just saying I have a ‘hard time’ BELIEVING it actually did.
This from a woman who ‘saved’ the burned remnants of Eric Marsh’s T-shirt and then even felt the need to post a picture of it on her public Facebook page?
Once again… here is that photo of that only remaining fragment of Eric Marsh’s burned T-Shirt that Amanda Marsh felt the need to post ‘publicly’…
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/photos/a.718463201580199.1073741828.706170532809466/907651632661354/?type=3&theater
It is actually ‘Item 5’ from the following official list of ‘personal effects’ in the Medical Examiner’s ‘autopsy’ report for Eric Marsh…
—————————————————————————————-
EXTERNAL EXAMINATION
The body is received in a zippered body pouch secured by evidence seal # 026414.
CLOTHING AND PERSONAL EFFECTS
The body is clad in the items of clothing as detailed in the property inventory list.
1. Remnants of upper part of green pants (size 30-34 regular).
2. Belt with metal buckle with engraving “Granite Mountain” on the top and “Hotshot Crew” on the bottom.
3. Partially preserved front portion of the yellow coat; back portion is completely burnt out.
4. Pair of boots (size 8-1/2 E).
5. Preserved remnant of the black tee shirt with logo “Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew”.
6. Left glove, mostly preserved.
7. Two pair of socks.
8. Gray underwear (size 36-38, Hanes).
9. White metal ring on the left fourth finger with mountain design on outside and engraved letters “MSK” on the inside).
10. Cell phone, mirror and compass in the shirt pocket.
—————————————————————————————-
Hey muzzy, maybe there were texts on the phone… Why did you go directly to the dirty picture idea?
I wonder what’s on your phone 😉
Ha! Not me. Whenever I send a text or take a picture (or post to a web site) I think of how it would look as the headline of the local paper. Then I think of the tech savvy deficit among the potential recipients. Chilling!
OTOH, what two consenting adults do on their own time is no one’s biznus!
Rocksteady says:
If someone comes to this site and spills all of the true and hidden details, I think we should create a “gofundme” account for them.
I am in for a grand…
To provide a single, steady income of just $40K annually, we would need to raise about $1MM.
And we could never provide the brotherhood the true believers crave more than money.
>> On June 28, 2016 at 7:12 pm, Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I have seen very few people in my life who are as adept and talented as
>> Mrs. Beno Marsh is in manipulating the media and public sentiment…maybe
>> no one else, she has done an amazing job at turning the single biggest blunder
>> in wildland firefighting history into an act of heroism that is to be admired
>> and respected and worst of all…emulated.
>> On June 28, 2016 at 7:40 pm, Muzzy replied…
>>
>> Gary: This is true, but she has help.
>>
>> The media also feed into the big lie.
>>
>> So long as we canonize the dead guys, mothers and fathers will continue
>> to feed the machine. And the old men who precipitated the fiasco are safe
>> from prying questions, and the cycle will continue.
>>
>> It’s a huge story, bigger than one guy, or one fire.
Regarding…
“I have seen very few people in my life who are as adept and talented as Mrs. Beno Marsh is in manipulating the media and public sentiment”
Yes. She is very good at pursuing her own (public) ‘agenda’. She has this unique ‘widows card’ that she is willing to play at any moment, and the media ( of course ) eats that up with a spoon.
However… regarding this…
…she has done an amazing job at turning the single biggest blunder in wildland firefighting history into an act of heroism that is to be admired and respected and worst of all…emulated.
I disagree. While there might be SOME who are ‘picking up what she is laying down’, even SHE ( no matter what she says or does ) cannot change the FACT that is was, to date, “the single biggest blunder in wildland firefighting history”.
It is what it is.
And ( hopefully )… it will ( forever ) REMAIN so… in terms of number of lives lost due to one single afternoon of bad decision making.
No books, or 60+ MILLION dollar movies, or Facebook pages, or incessant media interviews, or fund-raising events are EVER going to change that.
The only thing we still do NOT have, with regards to this “greatest blunder in the history of wildland firefighting”, is the ‘full story’ about HOW and WHY it happened… in order to have the best chance humanly possible of making sure it does NOT happen again in the same way it already did.
Even Amanda Marsh AND Brendan McDonough have publicly ACKNOWLEGED that fact, and McDonough himself has now PUBLICLY ( and repeatedly ) stated he believes the ‘investigation’ should be reopened.
Again… from Amanda Marsh’s own PUBLIC “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighter’s” Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/photos/a.718463201580199.1073741828.706170532809466/1017234525036397/?type=3&theater
————————————————————————————
Amanda Marsh: “I want the Yarnell Hill Fire to be studied for the TRUTH of what happened so that future fighters can LEARN.”
————————————————————————————
As Sonny ( Tex ) Gilligan has said…
Truth points no fingers — it only expresses what IS.
So… as this ‘rolling train wreck’ that is the Yarnell Hill Fire ( all THREE days of it leading up to and including the tragedy ) and the subsequent / ongoing ‘coverup’ limps into the train station marked “the THIRD anniversary”… it remains absolutely fascinating how all of this is still ‘playing out’.
Among other things…
We still have two people who are ( by their own admissions) still suffering from PTSD and still trying to deal with their own ‘personal’ losses acting like ‘official spokesman’ for a multi-BILLION dollar industry… and ONE of them now officially requesting ( publicly ) that the Yarnel Hill Fire investigation be ‘reopened’.
We have continued mounting evidence that regardless of any “We always take care of our own” bullshit coming from these Firefighter cabals… that any number of the Granite Mountain Hotshot family members have *always* been “treated like shit”.
We have continued mounting evidence that Mike Dudley and Jim Karels and the rest of the SAIT team not only never had any intentions of ‘investigating’ the incident at all… that they also were actively ( and illegally ) HIDING EVIDENCE from other agencies legally tasked to investigate the same incident.
We have continued mounting evidence that people directly involved with the Yarnell incident LIED during their interviews ( either by commission / omission, or both ), and that there are still MANY people who know more about what happened that day who still can’t seem to locate enough spinal fluid to speak up.
We have even more ‘new’ evidence ( The Yarnell Tenderfoot fire ), that even without deaths or injuries in the workplace, these ‘firefighters’ just can’t seem to help themselves and have a penchant for LYING that almost indicates they are actively TRAINED to LIE.
The ‘list’ goes on.
And these are the people we are supposed to *automatically* stand up and ‘salute’ when they go by in the parades?
Yea, right.
Good, I hope you are right and I am 100 per cent wrong. The last thing I want to see is Eric Marsh turned into a hero because of the Yarnell Hill Fire. I really do think that will increase the odds it will happen to more WF because of the hero envy or whatever the shrinks call it when people take unacceptable and foolhardy risks so they can emulate things they have heard about. Eric Marsh was one of my heroes BEFORE the Yarnell Hill Fire and as I have said before, I can mourn his loss without making him into something he is not.
It’s like everyone just WANTS to believe that suddenly there was just this horrible situation… and then it was all just “OMFG!… The big bad fire is coming after our boys!”…. and then all kinds of (supposedly) ‘heroic’ shit went down…
…but no one really wants to think about what actually CAUSED the situation.
THAT is how ‘bad things’ could happen in the future.
To only believe the ‘exciting’ part of the ‘story’.
There is absolutely NO ‘definitive’ proof regarding WHERE Eric Marsh really WAS either at the moment everyone realized how badly they had just fucked up ( some undetermined minutes BEFORE any radio calls )… or WHERE Eric Marsh really WAS when Jesse Steed’s first frantic botched-mayday call hit the the Air-To-Ground channel.
Holly Neill lost her patience with John Maclean and got him to let her recently ‘publish’ at that ‘research’ she’s been sitting on for years now.
In that ‘publication’… she coins her own phrase ‘suggestive evidence’ to justify all the assumptions she was then about to make.
Well… by her OWN definition, then… there is plenty of other ‘suggestive evidence’ that certain other ‘scenarios’ were possible.
Here is just ONE example…
The actual PHYSICAL EVIDENCE ( no conjecture involved ) of the ‘blunt force injuries’ to the top of Clayton Whitted’s head.
Here is exactly what the medical examiner wrote ( including the definitive conclusion that these were ‘blunt force injuries’… and NOT ‘thermal injuries’ )…
————————————————————————-
Clayton Whitted – Evidence of blunt force injuries include a 4 x 3 cm area of left frontal subscalp hemorrhage and a 3 x 1 cm area of right frontal subscalp hemorrhage.
DIMENSIONS…
LEFT – 4 x 3 cm area = 1.57 inch x 1.18 inch area.
RIGHT – 3 x 1 cm area = 1.18 inch x 0.39 inch area
————————————————————————-
So even according to the ‘Holly Neill rule of suggestive evidence’… this SUGGESTS that it is highly likely Clayton Whitted had gone ass-over-teakettle on that hike down into the canyon…. and that THIS now became an ‘incident’ that Jesse Steed and the crew were trying to deal with… and COULD also be the reason that Eric Marsh had taken off running to the men to help deal with ‘that’ situation… BEFORE even realizing what deep tapioca they were all about to be in out there on the floor of the fuel-filled box canyon.
It’s possible ( based on the rule of ‘suggestive evidence’ ).
Eric Marsh might not have ‘returned’ to the men at all just because of the ‘fire’ situation. He might have actually been WITH THEM before ANY of them realized they had ALL just completely fucked up.
It’s perfectly possible that the reason we don’t hear Marsh on the radio for 2 and 1/2 minutes is because he was not ‘returning’ to them at all. He MAY have actually been right there WITH them and was just directing the sawyers and trying to get the burnouts started… and he just TOLD Jesse ( and Caldwell ) to get on the horn with Air Attack.
No one knows ENOUGH ( yet ) about what REALLY happened to label anyone’s actions as ‘heroic’ at that particular moment in time.
But I hear what you are saying.
It’s what people BELIEVE that can also get them killed.
As you said… “Repeat a lie often enough… and it can become accepted as the TRUTH”.
By the way… according to the medical examiner and Clayton Whitted’s autopsy report…
————————————————————————-
Clayton Whitted – Evidence of blunt force injuries include a 4 x 3 cm area of left frontal subscalp hemorrhage and a 3 x 1 cm area of right frontal subscalp hemorrhage.
DIMENSIONS…
LEFT – 4 x 3 cm area = 1.57 inch x 1.18 inch area.
RIGHT – 3 x 1 cm area = 1.18 inch x 0.39 inch area
————————————————————————-
Clayton Whitted’s ‘blunt force injuries’ probably looked a lot like this…
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/selective-focus-painful-red-swollen-forehead-injury-man-injured-accidental-fall-64143674.jpg
Bleeding UNDER the ‘scalp’ ( following the ‘blunt force injuries’ ), and BOTH of them about the size of a book of matches, as seen in the photo.
But the photo only shows ONE injury.
Clayton Whitted had TWO of them, one on each side of his forehead.
Well…certainly almost anything is possible at this point, push, pull or actually with the crew. We don’t know, or at least I don’t know where Eric Marsh was.
I will tell you though, from my experience on a hotshot crew, an injury like Clayton Whitted suffered would NOT slow me down coming down that chute if I already believed that I shouldn’t even be there with my crew and I had already refused three times to follow that order. I would have put the two strongest men on the crew with Whitted to do whatever is necessary to help him keep pace with the crew.
For one thing, I don’t think that would be hard. As I have explained before, a crew line moves very slowly no matter what. If the lead person is held up by a spot of thick brush, a boulder that needs to be jumped up on and then down the other side, a gully that causes some hesitation in crossing, or any number of other problems in descending a steep brush choked, boulder strewn slope for just 10 seconds (now this is going to take some math and anyone who had read my posts knows that is NOT one of my strong points) then every other person in the crew line in going to encounter the same obstacle and take the same amount of time to clear it, It is going to add 17 x 10 = 170 seconds that is going to add 160 more seconds to the time it takes the crew to come down the same trail than it did just one person bushwacking by himself who only took the original 10 seconds.
Now…multiply that times 10 obstacles that each took an extra 10 seconds, you now have 10 x 160 = 1600 seconds, which is almost 27 MORE minutes to come down the same flag line. Now…that is only part of the equation, because what comes next is the first half of the crew has to periodically pause or slow their pace to allow the second half of the crew to catch up or the integrity of the crew line and organizational command and control is lost.
So you have this “slinky” effect, where the time it takes to clear each obstacle one at a time is magnified times the number of people in the crew line. It is slow going in rough terrain no matter what, so I think they could have kept Whitted in line. Nor would they have paused to render first aid under those circumstances, they knew they shouldn’t be in that chimney in the first place.
On top of everything else, Marsh didn’t even carry a tool, which I strongly disagree with, I always thought a hotshot without a tool in his hands was like a day without sunshine…for lots of reasons and that certainly included me.
It is well known that he was in superior physical shape, rested after his bike injury and recently returning to work and chomping at the bit to get back to work on the fire line, Sonny and Joy reported that they saw him bounding up and down those mountains whereas the crew was dragging and looked beat.
And they were carrying four chain saws, saw packs, heavier line gear and other tools. We also know it was Marsh’s habit to flag where he wanted the crew to go and Sonny found the melted roll of tape at the probable drop off point.
So here is what I think happened and I don’t know any more than you do, I think Marsh was very close to the BSR and in fact did run back to the crew when he realized they were in serious trouble.
What haunts me is the math that you did with the information RTS added about how fast the average American can run AND the fact that Marsh did in fact make it back to them, and so I am left with the horrible conclusion that Marsh very well could have recovered from his screw up IF he would have ordered the crew to abort their attempt to prepare a deployment site and run to him instead of him running back to them.
I think on top of everything else, I think he failed to calculate or even realize that the crew was not going to be able to come anywhere close in matching his pace coming down that canyon and he probably timed his descent. And then the fire outperformed his expectations and the rest…is WF history.
But…like many other people, I am anxiously waiting for any of the hundreds of people who I think know exactly what happened that day…to decide it’s OK to tell us what they already know.
Oh…and one more thing. In the for whatever it is worth category. I don’t think Mr. Whitted received those injuries coming down the chimney,
I think he got those at the deployment site, either trying to dive into a fire shelter after they waited to long to even try to get under them because they were trying to finish the deployment site, or those injuries were self inflicted while he was coughing up his burning lung tissue so hard it dislocated his tongue from the back of his throat.
He experienced it, the least I can do is be strong enough to write it.
Reply to Gary Olson says
June 29, 2016 at 9:40 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Oh…and one more thing. In the for whatever it
>> is worth category. I don’t think Mr. Whitted
>> received those injuries coming down the chimney,
>>
>> I think he got those at the deployment site,
>> either trying to dive into a fire shelter after
>> they waited to long to even try to get under
>> them because they were trying to finish the
>> deployment site, or those injuries were self
>> inflicted while he was coughing up his burning
>> lung tissue so hard it dislocated his tongue
>> from the back of his throat.
It really is a ‘limited’ set of circumstances, isn’t it.
Yes… either they happened in a ‘fall’ ( at some point )… or they were self-inflicted.
It’s actually a little ODD that there would be TWO of them.
Again… TWO of them ( one on either side of his forehead )… that both probably looked a LOT like this ( each about the size of a book of matches, just like this photo )…
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/selective-focus-painful-red-swollen-forehead-injury-man-injured-accidental-fall-64143674.jpg
So the fact there are/were TWO of them is something that has to be ‘factored in’.
What are the odds that he WOULD suffer TWO of those serious head injuries, on either side of his head, in just ONE fall?
Is it really MORE likely they were self-inflicted, then, and he was BANGING his OWN head on the ground to try and ‘knock himself out’ against the pain… as OTHER firefighters who have had to endure shelter deployments have actually already reported THEY tried to do?
I agree with you and I think the second scenario is far more likely, banging his head on one side and then on the other, probably repeatedly. That is why I just don’t think it happened coming down the chimney.
And as most of you know, I like to publish photos from my life to illustrate what I am posting or just because I want to. So…here is a photo that clearly shows what I am talking about. You can see the two crewmen and I are actively climbing the rock outcropping and the rest of the crew is at a standstill, the fourth guy in line is even bullshitting with the guy behind him.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
In addition, even though my heart was pumping hard and I was straining, I want you to notice the perfect alignment of the tool in my hand even though I had no idea I was being photographed. Gloves on, blade and point down, firm grip near the head of the lady shovel…now that is perfect form, tool handle perfectly horizontal, good crew spacing, now that is what did my new subject matter expert call it?
Oh yes, “If you love structure, rigid hierarchy, tool orders, and an iron-clad command and control structure, you might want to stick with hotshotting.” And I did, right up until I couldn’t cut it anymore.
And yes, the sleeves are rolled up a little bit, but I was a “tall” with monkey arms and all of the shirts came in a “short”, so my forearms were always exposed no matter what.
Oh…and please note that I was NOT using my tool as a hiking staff…that really is a SWFF crew move.
Looks like all the sleeves were rolled up.
Iron Clad Command –get real Gary is that safety in Supervision or every one following the Example of their leader???????????????
At least the tools were being carried right.
Yes Bob, all of the sleeves could be rolled up, nobody ever died from having their forearms burned. In fact, I never saw anybody get their forearms burned. If you are close enough to the fire to get your forearms burned…you are on fire.
Life is all about risk, I think that was an acceptable risk and did not reflect a poor attitude towards safety, I took acceptable risks every day fighting fire. And yes, we used the 10 and the 18 as mere GUIDELINES. I think that is the way is has to be and the way all effective WF do it. Although with someone as stupid as you are, it probably was and still is best for you to have checklists for everything including how to tie you boots.
It reflected a positive attitude towards work. If the sleeves are all of the way down and the velcro is cinched down like it was supposed to be, a hotshot ability to rhythmically stroke his tool for hours on end is greatly restricted because the sleeves are always pulling at the wrist, especially when those uncomfortable, stiff, smelly (from the fire retarder chemicals in them) fire shirts get stiff from slurry, days of sweat and has dried with layers of dust with more sweat and more dust in addition to the fact that neither the shirts or pants are made of a fabric that breathes.
Our fires clothes could stand up by themselves after a few hours into the first shift. Funky butt and chaffed wrists that could develop into sores after extended time on the line was just a big of a problem for us as you had getting sand and ash in your mangina
You were such a little bitch (non-gender specific) I would have left you in camp to watch our packs.
Let’s see a photo of you on the line…with some fire. Oh…that’s right, you are the only WF in the world that doesn’t have hero photos of themselves fightin’ fire. No wonder you could only do the job for two years…it took them that long to get rid of you because you had career status.
I would reply to you Gary but you already made a fool of your self.
Every Superintendent that I worked for and every AFMO and FMO made it known we worked fire with our shirt sleeves rolled down and our gloves on and that was mandatory. I continued that practice in Safety thru my career.
So you want to go back to the BS name Calling
I feel sorry for you.
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 29, 2016 at 9:07 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I will tell you though, from my experience on a
>> hotshot crew, an injury like Clayton Whitted suffered
>> would NOT slow me down coming down that chute
>> if I already believed that I shouldn’t even be there
>> with my crew and I had already refused three times
>> to follow that order. I would have put the two strongest
>> men on the crew with Whitted to do whatever is
>> necessary to help him keep pace with the crew.
Copy that. It’s still just ‘complete conjecture’ that Whitted might have fallen ( badly ) on the descent itself… but if Holly Neill has now made it OK to call things like just a few ‘stobs’ on the ground in weird places ‘suggested evidence’… and a good enough reason to postulate ‘theories’ such ‘suggested evidence’… then she has to make room herself for various ‘explanations’ of ‘physical evidence’ that is even MORE ‘suggestive’ than whatever she might have found on the ground out there. Evidence that comes directly from a Medical Examiner’s report.
The ‘blunt force injuries’ to Clayton Whitted’s head were REAL.
The Medical Examiner was not ‘making them up’.
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> So you have this “slinky” effect, where the time it
>> takes to clear each obstacle one at a time is
>> magnified times the number of people in the crew line.
Totally agree… and good ‘math’ up above.
Yes… there can be a ‘geometric’ ( and not just a ‘linear’ ) difference in the time it might take ONE man ( with NO tools ) to traverse a route versus 18 other men ( WITH tools and REQUIRED to ‘stay in line’ ) to traverse the same route.
And any even mildly competent field supervisor is SUPPOSED to KNOW that… and ALWAYS take that reality into consideration.
I still think it is HIGHLY likely that Eric Marsh did NOT take that ‘reality’ into consideration that day, even if he did actually ‘time the route’. I believe he ( fatally ) just assumed that just because he had covered a certain distance in a certain amount of time… that the other 18 men SHOULD be able to do the exact same thing.
Even just the POSSIBILITY that MIGHT have been a ‘factor’ that day is, in and of itself, a HUGE ‘Lesson to Learn’ and should be a direct industry-wide ‘reality check’ and ‘training update’.
NEVER assume your own ‘lone-rabbit travel time’ on any particular route is going to bear any resemblance to an actual ‘full-crew travel time’ along the exact same route.
If you DO ‘assume that’… some VERY bad shit could happen.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> Here is what I think happened and I don’t know
>> any more than you do, I think Marsh was very
>> close to the BSR and in fact did run back to the
>> crew when he realized they were in serious trouble.
Gives you some indication of the actual ‘confidence’ he actually had in that ‘crew’… doesn’t it?
That he would even think he HAD to be there… or that they did NOT know exactly what to do… indicates he really wasn’t sure they DID know ‘what to do’.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> What haunts me is the math that you did with the
>> information RTS added about how fast the average
>> American can run AND the fact that Marsh did in fact
>> make it back to them, and so I am left with the
>> horrible conclusion that Marsh very well could have
>> recovered from his screw up IF he would have ordered
>> the crew to abort their attempt to prepare a
>> deployment site and run to him instead of him
>> running back to them.
As I have always said… anyone who is ready to accept any scenario that puts Marsh out AHEAD of that crew that day has to also now accept the ‘disturbing’ additional ‘questions’ that come along with it.
Like ( yes )… why didn’t he TELL them that they had TIME to just ‘drop packs and run’ and at least make it to where HE was.
And WHY… if he WAS ‘out ahead’… was he not either willing or able to WARN them they were walking into a deathtrap.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> I think on top of everything else, I think he failed to
>> calculate or even realize that the crew was not going
>> to be able to come anywhere close in matching his
>> pace coming down that canyon and he probably timed
>> his descent. And then the fire outperformed his
>> expectations and the rest…is WF history.
Totally agree. See above. Even the POSSIBILITY that might have been part of what happened is cause for an industry-wide reality check… and a total review of ‘route timing procedures’.
How many OTHERS are out there who might make the same simple mistake… and think that THEIR lone-rabbit travel time is somehow the ‘actual’ time it would talk a real crew to traverse the same route?
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> But…like many other people, I am anxiously waiting
>> for any of the hundreds of people who I think know
>> exactly what happened that day…to decide it’s OK
>> to tell us what they already know.
All of the scenarios under discussion ( Holly Neill’s included ) would indicate any number of additional ‘communications’ over the GM intra-crew net radio channel that afternoon… as the situation developed.
One more point ( as long as we are talking again about ‘travel times’ and ‘underestimates ).
I still often think about the fact that if there really WAS this ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed… and ( according to Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini ) that Steed actually SAID he thought the move itself was ‘dangerous’…
…then even after Steed just decided to ‘keep his job’ and just ‘gave in’ to Eric Marsh’s stupid idea… WHY didn’t Steed have those men in ‘double-time’, or even just ‘at-the-quick-step’ for the FIRST part of the risky move, from the safe black down to the ‘descent point’, along the high-ridge two-track road?
One of the ‘reasons’ that occurred to me lately could relate back to Marsh’s reputation for being ‘Mr. Obtuse’ over the radio.
Perhaps ( just perhaps )… even DURING or AFTER the ‘argument’ about the ‘move’ itself… Eric Marsh didn’t even TELL Jesse Steed what the actual ‘move’ was going to entail?… a bushwhack through a blind-box canyon?
Maybe Marsh was playing one of his usual ‘minimal information only’ radio games with Steed even DURING the ‘argument’ and thought that if he actually TOLD Steed what the ‘trip’ was going to entail… that Steed would double-down on his refusal to leave the safe black?
So maybe… even after Jesse ‘gave in’ and was taking the crew down that high-ridge two-track on that first leg of the ‘move’… Jesse still had NO IDEA what the ‘second half’ of the ‘move’ was really going to entail… and ‘Mr. Obtuse’ Eric Marsh wasn’t even bothering to TELL him.
So Jesse might have really been under the false impression, that whole way, that since Marsh had ‘scouted’ the route and assured him it was ‘okay’… that the SECOND part of the trip that he couldn’t even see yet must be just as ‘clear’ as that FIRST part of the trip… with SOME kind of identifiable ‘two-track’ to take them ‘all the way’ to the destination.
It still might have ONLY been when Steed rounded that bend near the saddle and saw that pink ribbon there ( that Sonny discovered ), indicating where Marsh actually expected them to ‘cut through’ that fuel-filled blind box canyon… that Steed FIRST finally realized what the ‘second half’ of the trip looked like.
So Steed was NOT in a ‘hurry’ on the FIRST part of the move… because Eric Marsh had given him absolutely NO hint ( yet ) what the SECOND part was going to look like… or that there was any REASON to make as good a time as possible on that first leg of the ‘move’.
There might have been ANOTHER… even more INTENSE ‘argument’ ( over the GM Intra-crew radio ) as soon as Jesse rounded that bend and… only THEN… fully realized what Eric Marsh had gotten him to agree to.
I have always been bothered by the apparent lack of any urgency on Jesse Steed’s part on top. I have never been able to figure out why. That is a logical explanation for something that is otherwise inexplicable. .
I have picked up that Eric Marsh was an introspective man and did not communicate well with others. Many people who are insecure or feel threatened treat information as a currency they hoard to enhance their own positions while controlling and dominating others. Information is power.
Gary:
RE: I have always been bothered by the apparent lack of any urgency on Jesse Steed’s part on top. I have never been able to figure out why. That is a logical explanation for something that is otherwise inexplicable. .
You’ve talked a lot about crew discipline and following orders. We’ve also discussed the confusion of roles when the DIVS is also the HS sup. In this scenario, wouldn’t Steed have had the same right to refuse Marsh’s order once they got to the saddle and Steed realized the bloody mess he would be diving into? At that point, he still had time to run back up, or at least to dive into the Congress side.
What would have been the consequences of Steed’s refusal of Marsh’s order. How would those consequences have changed if the DIVS was not from the unit, all other actions remaining the same?
It seems to me that Steed was at least as responsible as Marsh, if not more so, because he relinquished command to the DIVS and abdicated his responsibility to his men.
1. Q – What would have been the consequences of Steed’s refusal of Marsh’s order.
A -I think Eric Marsh was such an asshole Steed would have lost his position and maybe his job because Willis is an asshole as well.
And Willis wanted the crew to go save Yarnell or at least look good trying for the city fathers with the budget ax.
Marsh shit canned his previous assistant for doing something that was creative…but never unethical, illegal or against policy. Tell the guy to stop collecting hotel points, but don’t destroy his life over it.
Eric Marsh demanded from others what he could not do himself. I would never respect a crew boss who doesn’t even think he needs to at least carry a tool.
Eric Marsh was a dark, deeply flawed caricature of a hotshot crew boss He brought SHAME down upon our house.
2.. Q – In this scenario, wouldn’t Steed have had the same right to refuse Marsh’s order once they got to the saddle and Steed realized the bloody mess he would be diving into? At that point, he still had time to run back up, or at least to dive into the Congress side.
A – Absolutely…and he should have. He owed that to every young man under his command and those who loved them, in addition to himself and his loved ones to do just that. –
3. Q – How would those consequences have changed if the DIVS was not from the unit, all other actions remaining the same?
A – Nothing would have happened. That is why I told John Dougherty when I first talked to him shortly after the YHF that the fact the fire team cannibalized the crew in order to save money by filling in needed but unmanned positions for the short team they deliberately ordered…to PINCH PENNIES is a causal factor in the deaths of the crew.
Marsh never gave up control of the crew that day…because he was so weak, insecure, jealous, and threatened by Steed’s maturity, ability, background and respect from the crew and many others.
4. Q – It seems to me that Steed was at least as responsible as Marsh, if not more so, because he relinquished command to the DIVS and abdicated his responsibility to his men.
A – Yes he was even more responsible than Marsh…he was the crew boss even with the extenuating circumstances.
It was his JOB to refuse the fucked up division supervisor. The right way to do that job is to start with the assumption that every overhead is fucked up because they probably are and then dial it back if they do a good job where you are at on the line.
I only cared about my piece of the line where my crew was and I didn’t give a fuck what was happening anywhere else, that was somebody else’s job to worry about..
I have said this before, but it must have been before you joined us, if Steed would have survived and I had done the investigation, I would have recommended in the strongest possible terms that Steed be prosecuted for manslaughter.
It’s just that I have a soft spot for Steed because my father was a Marine who served in the South Pacific during WWII. And Steed was trying to build a future for him family and he had an unstable boss who could destroy everything for them.
Thanks Gary.
Clarification of previous posts.
1. Obviously I am going to continue to agree to disagree with those who say everyone on the crew was responsible for their own decisions on June 30, 2013, and share in the responsibility. I don’t agree wiht that premise because as I have said before, I believe Granite Mountain was built on the Bill Buck model for hothsto crews. I said that BEFORE I knew that they actually used Bill Bucks’s 1976 “So You Want To Be a Hotshot?” letter as their standard. Which is certainly not uncommmon, that letter was also on the official U.S. Forest Service Fire website for years as THEIR standard for what a hotshot crew is and does. I have also seen that very same letter, although sometimes with various paragraphs or words left out, on many of the websites for lots of hotshot crews including those from several agencies. Bill would be amused that his letter that was only sent out ONE time to only those who applied to hotshots on the Coconino National Forest in 1976 before personnel and EEOC came down on him and it was never seen again until it became the national standard for what it means to be a hotshot for decades. From what I know of Eric Marsh, he would have been right at home as a hotshot crew boss on the Mighty Coconino in the 1970′ and 1980’s and maybe today. You can’t build a culture based on the prime directive that a hotshot must follow orders at all times…and then jump back and say, “Well shit fire and save matches..we didn’t mean they should follow only some orders some of the time”. To that I say…FUCK YOU you disingenuous bastards.
2. I don’t think the MSM are afriad of the truth about the Yarnell Hill Fire because the current hero worship of Marsh sells. I think the MSM outside of Arizona doesn’t really give a shit about what happened to the crew on the YHF…that is really old news. And not even the Arizona MSM cars on most days, except for anniversaries, special events like book comings out and they will care a lot when the Granite Mountain State Park opens and then they will drop the story again. It’s because the story line that Eric Marsh is a hero is a third rail in Arizona they can’t touch and they don’t want their newspaper offices attacked by a mob. And everybody loves a good hero story. It makes us feel good….for a little while anyway. I kind of look at this movie coming out like it will be the hotshot and WF (because nobody will really understand what a hotshot is, the MSM calls every crew they see a “hotshot crew”) equivalent of “American Sniper” and Eric Marsh will be made out to be like Chris Kyle.
The movie Granite Mountain is going to be WAY better than “Red Skies Over Montana” and just as soon as there is a Maclean book about hotshots dying on the YHF to compete with the Maclean book about smokejumpers dying on the Mann Gulch Fire…hotshots will be rockin’! Alas…if only I were a young bull again, I might be able to match what the Woodsman wrote about his exploits. Probably not, but I would give it a shot.
And once again, you can see the original “So You Want To Be a Hotshot?” letter that I was sent in 1976, here;
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved3.html
With this controversy, I would not be one bit surprised if you start seeing that letter disappear from all agency and hotshot web sites. This really is a historical document now and if you want a high resolution copy of my original, email me and I will send you one.
[email protected]
And this is a link I am not going to screw with, so it will be good for as long as my web site it up. You can also copy the letter (as most of you probably already know) right from my website but it won’t be a high resolution copy.
And FYI, rumor control said at the time that this letter was written and sent out to purposely discourage women from wanting to be hotshots on the Coconino, so it wasn’t a surprise when personnel and EEOC came down on it. Given the status of women on today’s hotshot crews, this letter has lost that meaning but if you read it carefully in that context, you can clearly see how it was written to discourage women from wanting to be Coconino hotshots.
There was a lot of pressure at the time to put women on Coconino crews but that was not allowed by you- know-who….right up to the point that I HIRED THE FIRST WOMAN HOTSHOT ON THE COCONINO TO BE ON THE HAPPY JACK HOTSHOTS!
I just gave myself another pat on the back. And as I have bragged about before on this blog, I received the Regional Civil Right Award (1980) and $500.00 (minus taxes and other deductions) in 1981 after I was already on the Santa Fe. And my dear wife and I and all of the other Happy Jack Hotshots and their wives/girlfriends who went with me to Santa Fe to start the Santa Fe Hotshots took all of that money and went out to the famous “Legal Tender” restaruant in Lamy New Mexico (where the train station is) I rented their private room, bought dinner for everyone and we got drunk. It was a civil rights award well spent!
Her name is Mary (reading a training manual I think) and you can see of photo of her sitting at a table in front of our shop while we were re-equipping after a fire on my “I love me video” at the link below. She was low risk for me because she was already on the district and had gone out with us as a fill-in for our crew and was a squared away WF. She later married a Mormon Lake Squad Boss named Russell, who was the person who started the ball rolling for me to even go to the Battlement Creek Staff Ride and be on their development committee 30 years later. Just a little stroll down memory lane. God Bless America!
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
Case in point for the letter.
http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/carson_city_field/blm_programs/fire_management/silver_state_hotshots/so_you_want_to_be.html
I was looking for another example and I found this, which really explains the difference between smokejumpers and hotshots. So…apparently everybody knows that, “If you love structure, rigid hierarchy, tool orders, and an iron-clad command and control structure, you might want to stick with hotshotting.”
I keep telling you that I was not and am not the oddball here…Fred is. How can anybody say everyone on the crew had a choice rather to go down that chute on June 30, 2013? READ what it says, and this is just on some misc. website…READ WHAT IS SAY;S “If you love structure, rigid hierarchy, tool orders, and an iron-clad command and control structure, you might want to stick with hotshotting.”
It say’s RIGID HIERARCHY, AND IRON CLAD COMMAND AND CONTROL STRUCTURE! I’m not saying Fred’s way wasn’t better…maybe it was…but it is definitely NOT THE NORM…RIGID HIERARCHY, AND IRON CLAD COMMAND AND CONTROL STRUCTURE!
Flexible vs. Structured: Smokejumpers are a notoriously loose bunch. Hotshot crews..not so much. If you love structure, rigid hierarchy, tool orders, and an iron-clad command and control structure, you might want to stick with hotshotting. On a jumper fire, the first person to land is the IC. That means you could have a rookie bossing around a 10-year veteran. Some people thrive in this environment, others don’t.
https://www.hotshotfitness.com/should-i-be-a-smokejumper/
OK…I just went to his “about us” web page and the web master was on the Feather River and Lassen Hotshots,which are both REGION 5 crews where Fred trained under Bob. And that is apparently how Feather River and Lassen hotshot crews were run, “RIGID HIERARCHY, AND IRON CLAD COMMAND AND CONTROL STRUCTURE!”
So…case closed..I win the argument and I don’t want to hear anymore about it! GMIHC were programmed by. “You must take orders, and carry out those at all times, day after day.”
Their prime directive does not say, “You must take orders except for the ones you don’t like or agree with, and carry out those orders, except the ones you don’t like or don’t agree with, at all times, day after day.”
Any questions?
https://www.hotshotfitness.com/about-us/
Now THIS looks like a HAPPY crew where everyone opinions counts just as much as the crew boss’! Just look at the way they carry their tools…backwards…WTF Fred…Over?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lanceoldroyd/3163851349/in/photostream/
Look at the ‘Hotshot’ in the lower left corner of the photo.
Does that REALLY look like someone who could actually pass EITHER a ‘pack test’ OR a ‘step test’?
Lets take another look were these really Hot Shots or people walking in a parade????
First Clue—-January 3, 2009 picture taken.
I do not think there are any Hot Shot Crews on duty at least the Crew members in January unless for some reason Arizona/ R3 hires crews that early??? I think not……….
Just a guess these are not Hot Shots or at least most are not.
Its a parade and FS employees dressed as FF for the Parade.
IN JANUARY for what ever reason.
Fiesta Bowl Parade 2009 just some one driving the Truck behind is another truck with Smokey in it.
Seen this many times pick up people from the Dist. put fire clothes on them and they walk or ride with Smokey on trucks, Eng. or walk. Just the HS truck was thrown in with the rest of the equipment for the show..
Reply to Bob Powers post on
June 29, 2016 at 8:26 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I do not think there are any Hot Shot Crews on
>> duty at least the Crew members in January
>> unless for some reason Arizona/ R3 hires
>> crews that early??? I think not……….
But aren’t you forgetting something about ‘Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crews’?
In order to even QUALIFY as a ‘Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew’… aren’t they all supposed to have at LEAST 7 ‘full time employees’?
‘Full time’ meaning… ‘Year round employment’?
Full time meaning 13/13, 18/8 the main supervisors 2 are 26/26. Full Time is not all ways what you would think. At least in the FS and BLM. A 13/13 receives all the benefits of a full time position it is a 6 month appointment.. November thru February are off months for Fire people.
The Superintendent and Asst. are full time. Depending on funding the others are under different appointments.
It is only my guess that this was a thrown to gather Parade with who ever was available in January.
I am just saying as has been stated they or at least some do not look physically fit to be HS. There are a lot of young people that can meet the hike test and get Red Carded. HS meet a more rigorous and demanding physical fitness training after they pass the hiking test. And the probability they are HS is open to question because of the time of year. I would also bet that there is a Type 6 Brush Engine in front of the Crew truck.
The FS put to gather a few trucks some people and went to the Parade. Smokey and all. I have seen and been in Parades with District staff from Rangers, recreation, timber and prevention and fire people on or driving equipment.
You are assuming these people are all Fire fighters which is a Questionable ASUMPTION.
RTS may be able to clarify. But I believe he was retired before 2009.
Bob is right about all of that. I actually just posted the photo because I don’t think ANY of those people look like hotshots.
I was just trying to get a rise out of Fred, but I guess he is off fightin’ fire somewhere doing the Lord’s work.
There are days when I wish I could still be there fighting Fire. There were a lot of good times and life was simple—- doing the Lords work.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
June 30, 2016 at 7:35 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> It is only my guess that this was a
>> thrown to gather Parade with who
>> ever was available in January.
Copy that.
Next time there is a parade, then, and I’m expected to ( of course ) automatically stand up and ‘salute’ these ‘firefighter’ people as they ‘parade by’… I’ll remember to be the one standing there with a sign that says…
“Hey… are you REALLY a firefighter?”
Whoops, it should be “Well shit fire and save matches..we meant they should follow only some orders some of the time”. To that I say…FUCK YOU you disingenuous bastards.
From evening news:
Non-fatal deployments on Cedar Fire. FFs walked out on their own before seeking medical care.
‘Wildfire Today’ picked up the story just 6 minutes ago.
There had been a ‘transition’ in management just hours before the deployment.
6 firefighters injured and taken to hospital. ( Non-life threatening injuries, supposedly ).
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/06/28/fire-shelters-deployed-on-the-cedar-fire-firefighters-injured/
Apparently… WFFs already released from hospital…
http://www.kmov.com/story/32330977/6-firefighters-hurt-while-battling-cedar-fire
———————————————————————-
SHOW LOW, AZ (KPHO/KTVK) –
Six firefighters were transported to the hospital after deploying their fire shelters while battling the Cedar Fire near Show Low on Tuesday.
There was a sudden and unexpected change in the fire, according to Candy Lupe with the Bureau of Indian Affairs Fire Management.
A group of fire crews had to deploy their fire shelters. Once the danger passed, they were able to walk out and get medical help, Lupe said.
The six firefighters were treated for non-life threatening injuries. They were treated at Summit Healthcare Regional Medical Center in Show Low and were released.
———————————————————————-
AZCENTRAL just picked up the story ( 5 minutes ago ).
No new information yet… other than what is in that original ‘Facebook’ press release from the Bureau of Indian Affairs ( who took over control of the ‘Cedar Creek’ fire just a few hours before the deployment )…
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-breaking/2016/06/28/arizona-officials-firefighters-deployed-shelters-cedar-fire/86500292/
And here is that original ‘press release’ from the BIA that they posted on the ‘Cedar Creek’ fire information ‘Facebook’ page just an hour ago…
https://www.facebook.com/cedarfireinfo
————————————————————–
BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS
FORT APACHE AGENCY
118 West Horseshoe Avenue
Whiteriver, Arizona 85941
FIRE FIGHTERS DEPLOY FIRE SHELTERS ON THE CEDAR FIRE
Bureau of Indian Affairs, Wildland Fire Management
Contact: Candy Lupe, Public Information Officer, (928) 205-5662
June 28, 2016
Summary: A crew was working near a flare up on the remaining uncontrolled fire line of the Cedar Fire. It is unknown at this time what may have caused a sudden change in fire activity however a portion of the crew was forced to deploy their fire shelters to protect themselves.
Current reports state that none of the firefighters received life threatening injuries and once the area cooled off they were able to walk out of the area. It is unknown how many firefighters deployed their shelters.
Medical, air and ground resources were deployed to the area to provide any assistance needed.
A shelter deployment is considered a serious incident in the wildland firefighting community and an extensive investigation will follow.
No further details are known at this time and fire officials are extremely relieved to know that there were no critical injuries to those involved in this incident.
————————————————————–
UPDATE: A comment was just posted on that ‘Cedar Creek Fire’ Facebook page saying the crew that had to deploy their fire shelters was the ‘Navajo IHC’ crew….
https://www.facebook.com/cedarfireinfo
—————————————————————
Comment by: Darren Namingha – 11 hours ago
Damn being a Former Navajo Scout sucks hearing about it being the Navajo IHC Crew. Prayers and thoughts to my 6 fire brothers
—————————————————————
Glad they are okay.
Bet if they were not packing shelters they would never have been in that spot.
Situational awareness people. C’mon
Can’t wait to hear the ‘details’ on this one… and the potential ‘Lessons to Learn’.
It’s also being confirmed in a number of places now that it was, in fact, a ‘squad’ from the Navajo IHC that had to deploy their shelters.
Also… guess who was OPS on this ‘Cedar Creek’ fire?
Same ‘Field OPS’ as the Yarnell Hill Fire / Tragedy.
Central Yavapai Fire District Battalion Chief Todd Abel.
Here he is, in a video posted on the official ‘Cedar Creek Fire’ Facebook page… giving a ‘Video Briefing on June 24, 2016…
https://www.facebook.com/cedarfireinfo/videos/vb.262149034145246/265926650434151/?type=2&theater
Back to my old motto bring the black with you, always keep one foot in the black.
WTKTT,
I think Todd Abel probably left with the Type 1 IMT2. BIA is in charge now.
UPDATE: CEDAR CREEK FIRE DEPLOYMENT
Just a few minutes ago…
CONFIRMED: The 6 firefighters that were forced to deploy were ‘Navajo Nation Firefighters’.
CONFIRMED: No BURN injuries. Only smoke inhalation.
http://www.omaha.com/news/nation/the-latest-navajo-nation-crew-deployed-fire-shelters/article_f2e6e0dc-04f7-5b93-be86-56cd4514174e.html
If you look at Wildifre today, it appears that there were 554 personnel working on the fire on Monday, but on Tuesday, after the turn over, there were maybe 50 (if you believe the updates and Bills info)….
If this is the truth, I suspect, there was a flare up of some sort in a cold area of the fire and they pulled a squad from the hotshots to go deal with it and were unsuccessful.
In the updates there is no mention of air resources on the incident, just the personnel, so maybe there was no air support to action the spot or to assist the Hotshots…
Either way, another blunder in the world of WFF…
A seemingly quiet fire, undermanned, in transition to a new team…….. all of the cornerstones of the historical fatality fires..
No Type 1 team, so where were they getting their weather info from? Was there an FBAN supporting them , even remotely from the Dispatch Office, advising them what fire behaviour potential was??
More questions should be asked about this near miss, hopefully it won’t just be swept under the carpet as one of those “unpredictable, freak wind events…”
Rocksteady:
It really frosts me that these “investigators” have been allowed to write “monsoon” and “unexpected winds” in the same sentence and no one calls them on it! If you’re from Arizona, you don’t need a weather report to know how it goes, or at least what is likely.
Beside that, do the 10&18 go away with the T1 IMT? Do they stop being hotshots when the flames are gone? I think you’re right, the shelters made them complacent.
OTOH, I’d rather they use the shelters and survive.
BTW from the official press release:
Fort Apache Agency requests media not contact Navajo Hotshots directly. All media requests should be directed to Cedar Fire Information.
Reply to rocksteady post on June 30, 2016 at 8:01 am
>> rocksteady said…
>>
>> If you look at Wildifre today, it appears that
>> there were 554 personnel working on the fire on
>> Monday, but on Tuesday, after the turn over,
>> there were maybe 50 (if you believe the updates
>> and Bills info)….
>>
>> If this is the truth, I suspect, there was a flare up of
>> some sort in a cold area of the fire and they pulled
>> a squad from the hotshots to go deal with it and
>> were unsuccessful.
>>
>> In the updates there is no mention of air
>> resources on the incident, just
>> the personnel, so maybe there was no air
>> support to action the spot or to
>> assist the Hotshots…
>>
>> Either way, another blunder in the world of WFF…
>>
>> A seemingly quiet fire, undermanned, in transition
>> to a new team…….. all of the cornerstones of the
>> historical fatality fires..
Yep. It’s perfectly obvious that the ‘investigation’ is going to need to focus on WHO ordered that massive ‘ramp down’, and whether that, itself, created the situation which led to the potential loss of the firefighter’s lives.
Probably going to turn out to be very similar to Yarnell.
Yes… there will probably be some evidence of poor decisions on the part of the line firefighters themselves… and potential LCES and 10&18 violations… but the CIRCUMSTANCES which led to the poor decision
making fall right back on management decisions ( or the lack thereof ).
And how much you want to bet that there will be ’empty houses’ involved once again?
Even Bill Gabbert, at Wildfire today, is already ‘questioning’ the decision for the ‘ramp down’, and whether that might, itself, have been a very BAD decision.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/06/29/fire-shelters-deployed-cedar-fire/86523668/
—————————————————
It is rare for a fire crew to deploy its shelters as a wildfire is nearly winding down, but not unheard of, said Bill Gabbert, who was a wildland firefighter for more than 30 years and now edits the website Wildfire Today.
“It’s pretty unusual for an entrapment like that to occur at the very end of a fire — or at least when they thought it was the end of the fire,” Gabbert said.
Gabbert pointed out on his website that the Cedar Fire was still generating a lot of intense heat, according to an aerial heat map generated Monday.
“That map was made the day before (the shelter deployment), so it probably was not quite as hot 24 to 36 hours later,” he said. “But it seemed like there was quite a bit of heat left on that fire and much of it left on the fire line for the Type 1 team to turn it over to the local agency.”
———————————————————
What’s also curious to note is that several press releases, including one from the BIA itself, use the phrase “Special Accident Investigation Team”.
Looks like someone didn’t get the memos from USFS Employees John Phipps and Ivan Pupulidy.
There is no ‘SAIT’ approach to ‘Accident Investigation’ anymore.
The NEW approach is so afraid to even use the word ‘Accident’ that it isn’t even in the title of the protocol.
It’s now called the “Coordinated Response Protocol” (CRP), and it’s what was being secretly ‘test flown’ for the Yarnell investigation ( even though it was still being CALLED a ‘SAIT’ )… and then became the full-blown ‘official’ approach to investigating the US Forestry FF deaths at the Twisp Fire.
If you add the word ‘Accident’ back in ( which John Phipps and protocol author Ivan Pupulidy were even afraid to do… it becomes…
‘Coordinated Response Accident Protocol’ ( CRAP ).
Cedar Creek Fire Deployment – 24 hour report now
available at Wildfire Lessons Learned Center…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=46244496-12cf-4333-84f6-3b3084d06c34
Nothing ‘new’ here… except maybe for the fact that we are now learning the ‘deployment’ took place in a ‘previously burned area’…
———————————————————
Cedar Fire Shelter Deployment 24 Hour Report
TO: Bryan Bowker, Regional Director Western Region
FROM: Nona Tuchawena, Superintendent, Fort Apache Agency
SUBJECT: Cedar Fire Shelter Deployment 24 Hour Preliminary Report
THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PRELIMINARY AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE
LOCATION: Cedar Fire
DATE OF OCCURANCE: June 28, 2016
TIME OF OCCURANCE: 1615
LOCAL AGENCY ADMINISTRATOR Nona Tuchawena, Fort Apache Agency Superintendent
ACTIVITY
:
Six members of the Navajo Interagency Hotshot Crew deployed fire shelters when a sudden change in fire activity occurred They moved into a previously burned area and deployed their fire shelters
.
All of the firefighters were able to walk out of the fire area and were transported to Summit Healthcare in Show Low.
They were treated and released that evening.
The Bureau of Indian Affairs initiated a Serious Accident Investi gation Team, led by Jon Rollins, Chief Investigator National Park Service
They will report to Western Region, Fort Apache Agency June 30
.
They will conduct a comprehensive investigation on contributing factors of the deployment
.
NUMBER OF INJURIES: Six were evaluated for smoke inhalation
PROPERTY DAMAGE: Six fire shelters
RELATED SAFETY REVIEW TOPICS FOR FIELD USE: Not Known
cc:
Robert Lacapa, Fort Apache Forest Manager;
Leon Ben, Western Regional Forester;
Carlos Noise, Western Region Fire Management Officer;
Aaron Baldwin, Branch Chief, Branch of Wildland Fire Management;
Joel Kerley, Aviation & Safety Director,
Dalan Romero, Fire Operations Director
———————————————————
Joy,
I am staying out of the Tenderfoot fire because I haven’t even made a real difference (as far as I can tell) in what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire in terms of taking some measurable steps to try and make sure it never happens again and I don’t even want to think about how many hours I have put into THAT fires.
But…I would like to try and help you write your FOI’s for records pertaining to the fuel bread work that was done around Yarnell…that should NOT be very hard to nail down. And IF there has been any kind of waste, fraud and abuse of grant money to do that work on a large scale, you SHOULD be able to determine if there was. I mean…the fuel breaks should be there for you to measure and photograph whether a fire has been in the area recently or not unless the fire control lines went over the top of the fuel breaks.
I am requesting copies of all correspondence, photographs, notes and records, written or electronic, grant applications, grant awards, contracts, bids, notice of bids, award of bids or contracts, bid or contract specifications and standards, time sheets, payroll records, expenditures, invoices, accounts payable, all banking records of grant funds coming in or being paid out, all inspection reports pertaining to all grant applications, grants awarded, money received, and money paid out for fuel mitigation, fuel breaks, wildfire prevention or any other work done or money spent on any projects related to making the community of Yarnell fire wise or safe from wildfires. In addition to all proposed and actual locations of all completed or partially completed fuel breaks, fire lines, or other work performed to lessen the impact or danger of wildfires on the community of Yarnell and surrounding properties both public and private that were affected by any grants awarded by the State of Arizona to the community of Yarnell or adjoining, related or associated communities or land…blah, blah, blah.
Don’t actually include the blah, blah, blah in your request. That is just a reminder for you or anyone else who reads this to add anything you can think of to close any loop holes they will look for to get out of following the law. Remember…the number one rule of the people who gather this information to release it, is to look for reasons why they don’t have to release it, rather than look for reasons to release it. They think none of this is any of your business.
P.S. look for other buzz words…”defensible space” that Bob just wrote about is a good buzz word to add.
Done.
Oh…and I forgot MAPS, integrate the word maps, gps coordinates, drawings, etc into the “locations” verbiage.
Verbiage – 1. An excess of words for the purpose; wordiness.
2. The manner in which something is expressed in words:
In other words, you are looking for as many ways as possible to ask them for anything related to the grants or the grant work, but you have to play the game by their rules…the more words the better.
And I forgot “handwritten” as in, I am requesting copies of all correspondence, photographs, notes and records, written or electronic,including “hand written” and “hand drawn” maps,
“deposited” is a better word or a word to add to the banking records section rather than or in addition to “coming in.”
Many people use “day planners” or work or daily/weekly/monthly schedules, calender’s, logs, to record their daily work and have a “telephone log” to record incoming or outgoing calls at the office so you should ask for the day planners, schedules, telephone logs and cell phone records of both Chief B’dover and the office manager or administrative assistant pertaining to the grants, applied for or received (just in case they haven’t gotten or spent the money yet but it is in the pipeline), deputy, whoever they have that would have been helping the Chief “ADMINISTER” the grants and the grant money/funds. They sometimes use words like “contracting officer” or “contracting officer representative.” In other words, anybody that had anything to do in any way with applying for or administering any grants applied for or awarded.
Oh and request the mileage logs for the Chiefs hummer. Those should show where he has been driving to to inspect the work being done. While you are at it, request all mileage logs for all city owned vehicles used by anybody that could be administering these grants which includes mileage in personal vehicles they are reimbursed for.
and the word “reports” isanother good buzz word as in, compliance reports, completion reports, inspection reports, reports on the reports etc.
I’m glad John doesn’t charge us to blob here , especially per post.
blob or blog
we all should do something monetarily special for our freedoms here to John…I just don’t know how—fundraisers—I use to the ring the funds in that way in the day…but I am not able to now—
Donating to this blog is easy. Just go to the top of the right hand column. There is a donate button. Use one of the suggested amounts, or fill in your own amount. All you need is a payment method.
when I get home Muzzy I will do just that-
I just got done with physical therapy- neat folks.
Hiking back to my house-
HOT day….
Muzzy—little later than I thought —hoped to be on earlier— (heat stroked from long hike) but I just donated my support to the Arizona Center for Investigative Journalism by ARIZONA CENTER FOR INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM…thank you John Dougherty for the FREEDOM OF SPEECH 🙂
http://arizonawatch.org/donate
also recently $5000 reward article came out and I was like LaMaster has to be wrong…I am still awaiting locals replies but I did get one and they had their scanner on and around Monday before the fire there was some sort of notes on scanner of spotty fires out by Stanton so as the information comes in I will share it but the person stated the local fire dept should have public records of such and maybe that is HOW LaMaster came up with that and since I am refused public documents I don’t know that knowledge but I do have one reliable source that states she actually heard it on the scanner as it was happening—
To make a long story short…there SHOULD be records of every penny they ask for, every penny they got, and every penny they spent in addition to every bit of work that was done with that money,
You should be able to inspect, photograph, measure, evaluate and VERIFY all of the work done with that money…today. Even if it was done “in-house” by their own “volunteers” without employing outside contractors.
I wanted to bring this question from Joy/Sonny on difensiable space to the top as it was a relevant question to Me and RTS.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-340477
Thank you Bob
MY REPLIES ARE IN CAPS BELOW—>>>
Bob Powers says
JUNE 28, 2016 AT 7:44 AM
There is more than defensible space to consider that is only part of the Fire wise assessment.
AGREED.
Construction of the home is the other piece of the puzzle. Fire proof roof and Walls enclosed rafters and porches keeping your Roof clean of all flammable materials. Removing Plants and trees that are flammable at least 30 Ft. from all buildings. Evergreen plants and trees like pines are very flammable and up against a house will ignite material that is not fire proof. Untreated Asphalt Shingles will ignite. Wood piles up against the House or on a Porch will ignite.
If you do not have a House that is constructed with Non-Flammable Material then you absolutely have to provide more open area and remove all flammable material with in 30 Ft or more of the Home and any other structures.
My final point look at the Helms Ranch and their home that withstood the 2000 degree Temp. and 100 Ft. Flame Lengths. The type of construction helped their place survive with difensiable space. YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A MAN WORTH MILLIONS VS A TOWN FILLED WITH ELDERS AND DISABLED FOLKS AND THE HELMS WHO CAN PULL IT OFF AND I MET THE MAN WHO OWNED IT BEFORE THE HELMS—SO I LEARNED MUCH MORE ON THE CHEMICAL TOPIC—BUT SUN DRAINED ME TODAY—I THINK THE INSURANCE COMPANIES USE THESE UP-TO-DATE SATELLITE IMAGES OR HAVE OWNER SEND THEM ANNUALLY A PHOTO UPDATE OF PROPERTY AND IF IT IS OUT OF CONTROL THEN THERE INSURANCE GOES UP BUT I ASK YOU BOB AND WWTKTT WHAT ABOUT BLM/STATE/IN JURISDICTION YARNELL WATER COMPANY PROPERTY AND INVESTMENT PROPERTIES OR PEOPLE OFF THE OL OCOTILLO LONE TRAIL- OLD CLOUDCROFT AMMENDMENT WITH ALOT OF PRIVATE OWNERS BUT INSANE TERRAIN—AND IT SHOULD BE CRIMINAL WHEN YOUR OWN FIRE BOARD MEMBERS OR STAFF HAVE A EYE SORE OF FULL BODY HEIGHT (6FT) WEEDS—COME ON…THEY REPRESENT DEFENSIBLE SPACE???? SERIOUS????
Being Fire Wise means more than Difensiable Space.AGREED.
I truly have no clue on all the Deaths in Yarnell.IT IS TOO LARGE BOB-
The Fire Retardant may not be the problem and I am surprised by that assumption.I WOULD SAY A MINIMAL OF THE TOTAL DEATHS WOULD BE DUE TO THAT—BUT IT IS NOT SOMETHING TO IGNORE AND HAS BEEN IMPORTANT TO SONNY-
Having not been there for the Back Fire or the Reason for it I can not defend or applaud that decision. SAME HERE
The main factor I think was the knee jerk reaction caused by the Yarnell Fire to protect the Subdivision Right or Wrong.
I SEE THAT TOO
They basically did that though they lost 3 or 4 Structures. DID THEY EVEN NEED TO DO THE BURN IF THE ORIGIN BURNED ITSELF OUT AND THIS EDITOR IS “CLAIMING” IT HAPPENED DAYS BEFORE WHICH DOES NOT MATCH 6-8-16 2:05PM EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT—-AND KIND OF WHAT I MEANT WHEN I DESCRIBED MY SURGERY AND RTS SAID GET A LAWYER- THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAWYERS BUT POINTING OUT THINGS THAT DO NOT HAVE TO BE IF PEOPLE ARE MINDFUL FROM THE START AND DON’T PANIC AND MAKE AVOIDABLE ERRORS….AND THAT BURN OUT OPERATIONS IN MANNER IT WAS DONE I WILL RESEARCH IT OUT…
Much better than the Yarnell/Glen Isla Out Come. The question is did the Back Fire save the Housing Development? OR THE QUESTION IS WAS IT NEEDED IN THE FIRST PLACE WHEN THE ORIGIN BURNED ITSELF OUT BUT THIS ARTICLE http://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/27942-5k-cash-reward-for-information-leading-to-tenderfoot-fire-suspects IS ALLOWED TO MISLEAD AND GIVE OUT FALSE INFORMATION (HOW COME???)- I SPENT SOME QUALITY TIME TODAY AND ALWAYS A PLEASURE FOR THE HIKERS TO SEE CARL- CLAYTON WHITTED’S FATHER AND HE DID NOT GET ANY CALLS ON THE MOVIE YET—I HOOKED HIM DIRECT TO WHO TO REACH ON BOTH ENDS; THE ONE ACTOR AND THE FATHER WHO LOST HIS SON HAVE DIRECT CONTACT INFORMATION NOW—WHY WASN’T HE EVEN INFORMED OR SHOWN WHO WAS PLAYING HIS SON? I SHOWED HIM. WELL- I AM BEAT FROM THE SUN SO BYE FOR NOW—THANK YOU GARY FOR TODAY AND THAT REQUEST IS DONE AND IN CHEIF BEN PALM’S HANDS NOW- WE WILL SEE IF HE ADDRESSES ME OR SONNY NOW—“BE PATIENT” ARLON RICE STATED TO ME—I NOW HAVE A STATUE OUTSIDE—
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61O2XkYz6VL._SL1000_.jpg
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2016/jun/28/bug-creek-fire-closes-i-17/
ANOTHER aRIZONA FIRE OTIS
AND IT SHOULD BE CRIMINAL WHEN YOUR OWN FIRE BOARD MEMBERS OR STAFF HAVE A EYE SORE OF FULL BODY HEIGHT (6FT) WEEDS—COME ON…THEY REPRESENT DEFENSIBLE SPACE???? SERIOUS????
I AM GOING OVER TO ONE SPOT IN PARTICULAR AND EMAIL YOU THAT AS PROOF
I don’t know what has taken me so long, but yesterday pushed me over the edge so I am starting to push back against “The Big Lie.” Please click early and click often.
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
Muzzy says
JUNE 27, 2016 AT 3:33 PM
It’s been said by Marti that the story of this fire was written by Shakespeare. Maybe it was written by Sophocles. A classic Greek tragedy, in which a single fatal flaw, usually an attempt to escape one’s fate or to ignore one’s own character flaws, leads inevitably to a tragic end. A cosmic smackdown.
The Greek ideal was a man who knew his own measure, no more, no less. To be the best you can be, but not to force or pretend. The GM Latin motto was ironic, to be rather than to seem. They could never just be.
WOW…I really like this comment. This comment is an entire chapter all by itself. Now I just have to write it. The devil is always in the details.
Gary,
Thanks for the compliment.
Regarding the big lie, your current page shows a story that might not be a lie at all; it’s possible that Marsh was, after all, doing the right thing by sticking with his men. He may well have been most of the way to safety at the ranch, or maybe in another safe place, and he may have rejoined his men to help out or give them heart, or just to die with them honorably rather than escape when his men could not. If the latter is true, there may be real poetry in Marsh’s actions, and absolution in his final act.
The real big lie is the one that has been told for thousands of years, the lie told by old men to younger ones, that they need to risk their lives to prove themselves, to earn respect and security. Some of these old men are generals, some are firegods, some are CEOs. If they fail, the young men will die in war, in a fire, from poison. If they’re lucky, the young men will get a good job, will be able to afford to support a family, have a comfortable retirement. Somewhere in there, they themselves may tell the lie to the young men that follow them. And so it goes.
I’m not sure if things can be otherwise. Those jobs have to get done. It mostly bothers me when old(er), often wealthier or better connected men who have never risked anything, and would never risk their own sons, ask younger men to risk it all, dangling the promise of a good life, one the old men already enjoy. Even if the promise is sincere, it may be extortion, but when it is empty, it is immoral.
It bothers me, as well, when the older man protects his own son from the risks while doing nothing to protect the sons of others. That is why I was so outraged by talk from former hotshot superintendents who would only let their sons work in certain crews, while doing nothing to make the other crews safer. Such men are cowards and should consider themselves complicit in the big lie that killed the GM IHC.
Well…you caught me, but I didn’t make that page for someone like you, I made it for all of the dummies who don’t do anything but follow MSM and believe their uninformed bullshit.
Yes, technically the caption does even tell a lie. I think Eric Marsh did die trying to protect and save his crew…after he ordered them to their deaths. However…I chose to try and make it really simple for the simpletons…Eric Marsh is responsible for the deaths of 18 GMIHC as well as his own
After all…the best kind of lie is the one that has some truth in it, it makes it sound more plausible, it is easier to sell and makes it harder to sort through to figure out how much is the truth and how much is a lie.
Just one of the problems with this blog is trying to figure out what is important and what is not. I was trying to make something that is very straightforward, without any nuances and doesn’t require any explanation…and I think what I said is 100% accurate…Eric Marsh ordered his crew to their deaths over the repeated objections of Jesse Steed.
What I hope happens, if all of you help me with clicks, click early and click often…is that at some point when John Q. Public searches for any of the key words for that web page, that web page will come up and maybe…just maybe…will make some difference somewhere to somebody in telling the truth as opposed to the overwhelming gag me drivel that is out there right now about what a hero Eric Marsh was because of his actions on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And like I have said before…that kind of hero worship actually increases the chances someone will do what Marsh did in the future. They most likely try to kill themselves in the process although some do, but they will take unacceptable risks to get everything that comes with being a hero and we have all seen what that is over the past three years.
Just wait until the movie comes out…there are going to be a lot of young wildland firefighters and future wildland firefighters who want to be just like Eric Marsh…that is what Amanda Marsh wants. I have seen very few people in my life who are as adept and talented as Mrs. Beno Marsh is in manipulating the media and public sentiment…maybe no one else, she has done an amazing job at turning the single biggest blunder in wildland firefighting history into an act of heroism that is to be admired and respected and worst of all…emulated..
Gary:
Re: I have seen very few people in my life who are as adept and talented as Mrs. Beno Marsh is in manipulating the media and public sentiment…maybe no one else, she has done an amazing job at turning the single biggest blunder in wildland firefighting history into an act of heroism that is to be admired and respected and worst of all…emulated..
This is true, but she has help. The media also feed into the big lie. So long as we canonize the dead guys, mothers and fathers will continue to feed the machine. And the old men who precipitated the fiasco are safe from prying questions, and the cycle will continue.
It’s a huge story, bigger than one guy, or one fire.
In terms of your web site, I notice that you reuse links for different content. Have you considered using a content management system like WordPress? It would allow you to have permanent links and help build regular traffic. It’s reasonably easy to use and to customize. As you add content, you can reorganize without losing older links.
Just a thought…
No, I haven’t thought about that or gone that far. I really didn’t ever intend to use my web site like I am using it. It’s kind of turned into a Face Book Page and I have been switching things around just to share with all of you because we are so close.
I just assume Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public don’t even come here and so I figure after I have said, “hey look at this if you want to,” whoever is going to has after a few days so it doesn’t matter that the links are dead or go to something else because “we” don’t go back that far.
And here is what I am trying to say to Mr. and Mrs. Public when they eventually go to my website, because I am not changing that page, it is going to be permanent.
1. Eric Marsh is responsible for the death of his crew.
2. The investigation was a cover up to protect the guilty led by the USFS.
3. The very same thing has happened before and will happen again because if you don’t admit you have a problem, you can’t even begin to fix it.
4. I know more than Mrs. Beno Marsh because I was a hotshot whereas she was just married to one.
As I have said before, my dear wife was married to one (or dated one…same guy) for 10 years and she doesn’t know enough about WF safety to be a subject matter expert like Amanda Marsh thinks she is.
Although surprisingly my dear wife knows one hell of a lot more than anybody on the SAIT who wrote the SAIR. She was sitting there with me when the story broke and she immediately knew somebody really fucked up.
And you are right, there are lots of people who know the truth, especially in the mainstream media and including those who are making the movie, but they aren’t going anywhere near the truth because that is not what sells.
Hardly anybody would go see a movie about the truth about Eric Marsh. There have been three hotshot crew bosses (two of them worked for the USFS) who killed hotshots under their supervision in WF history…the other two are responsible for a total of 15 hotshot deaths (including one who killed himself) and Eric Marsh alone is responsible for 19 hotshot deaths (including his own).
And he is responsible for the single biggest loss of life on a single fire in modern WF history (since the Idaho Fires of 1910, which don’t really count). In other words…Eric Marsh is the biggest fuck up in WF history and he not only has a WF safety foundation in his honor, he is going to be the hero of his own movie.
But thanks for the tip. If I keep screwing around with my website I will look into WordPress.
Just go to WordPress.com and take a look around. It may help you to organize your content for your books. You can keep some stuff private, or share with specific people only. Your hosting service might have it as an option.
I’ll do it. Thanks.
Joy,
Here is my version of your FOIA request. Note that I have removed all comments and referred to specific records. You should check for typos and double pastes, etc. It would be good to run this by an actual FF to see if there are incorrect terms or unreasonable requests to avoid annoying administrators more than necessary. This will be in three parts to avoid annoying the blog software!
Note to Joy: these questions should be sent to all fire departments except the Yarnell Fire Department and BLM. See below for questions to Yarnell and BLM.
This is a Freedom of Information Request for information about the positions, qualifications, and assignments of all firefighters, Emergency Medical Technicians (EMTs), or other staff members from your department who participated in the effort to fight the Yarnell Hill Fire from 28 June 2013 until 1 July 2013, and the Tenderfoot Fire from 8 June 2016 until 10 June 2016.
RE: Yarnell Hill Fire from 28 June 2013 until 1 July 2013
Did your department receive any emergency calls from citizens regarding the fire that would become the Yarnell Hill Fire in the above date range? If so, please list date, time, caller location, and call content for each call.
Was your department asked to provide personnel at any time during the above period to help fight the Yarnell Hill Fire?
If so, for all personnel sent to the fire during the above time period please list the following information:
Name or Identifier…Position in Dept..Qualifications…Most Recent Performance Review at the time of the Fire…Review Date
Please list the date and time for each request made, and who and what agency made the request. For each request, please list any personnel sent to the fire, along with the following personnel information.
Name or Identifier…Dates and Times Involved…Role in Fire…Overhead in Fire
Please list the identifier, description, and crew name or identifier for all equipment sent to the Yarnell Hill Fire during the above time period
At any time, did any department staff offer unsolicited personnel or equipment to fight the fire? If so, to whom was the offer made and was the offer accepted. If so, please list all personnel information as above.
RE: Tenderfoot Fire from 8 June 2016 until 10 June 2016
Did your department receive any emergency calls from citizens regarding the fire that would become the Tenderfoot Fire in the above date range? If so, please list date, time, caller location, and call content for each call.
Was your department asked to provide personnel at any time during the above period to help fight the Tenderfoot Fire?
If so, for all personnel sent to the fire during the above time period please list the following information:
Name or Identifier…Position in Dept..Qualifications…Most Recent Performance Review at the time of the Fire…Review Date
Please list the date and time for each request made, and who and what agency made the request. For each request, please list any personnel sent to the fire, along with the following personnel information.
Name or Identifier…Dates and Times Involved…Role in Fire…Overhead in Fire
Please list the identifier, description, and crew name or identifier for all equipment sent to the Tenderfoot Fire during the above time period
At any time, did any department staff offer unsolicited personnel or equipment to fight the fire? If so, to whom was the offer made and was the offer accepted. If so, please list all personnel information as above.
At any time before the BLM assumed incident management were any personnel from your department involved in manual ignitions anywhere between the fire and the developed lots in the town of Yarnell. If so, at what times and in what locations and by whom were these ignitions done, and under whose orders?
These are questions specifically for the Yarnell Hill Fire Department
This is a Freedom of Information Request for information about the positions, qualifications, and assignments of all firefighters, Emergency Medical Technicians (EMTs), or other staff members from your department who participated in the effort to fight the Tenderfoot Fire from 8 June 2016 until 10 June 2016.
Did your department receive any emergency calls from citizens regarding the fire that would become the Tenderfoot Fire on 8 June 2016? If so, please list date, time, caller location, and call content for each call.
Based on the calls received and known topography and weather conditions, what was your assessment of the fire (location, size, fuels, likely direction of fire movement, etc.) before personnel were dispatched?
What was your initial response to the first emergency calls to which your department responded? Please indicate the orders, equipment mobilized and for each employee dispatched, please list Name or Identifier…Position in Dept..Qualifications…Most Recent Performance Review at the time of the Fire…Review Date.
Was there a request for assistance for firefighting, EMT, or other functions, to other departments in the area under a mutual aid agreement? If so, under whose authority was the request made? For each department contacted, please list the following:
Department Name…Aid Requested…Aid Delivered…Required Certifications…Specific Orders
Under whose command did mutual aid forces work before BLM assumed command?
At what time was the incident response put under the jurisdiction of the BLM?
At any time before the BLM assumed incident management were any personnel involved in manual ignitions anywhere between the fire and the developed lots in the town of Yarnell. If so, at what times and in what locations, and by whom were these ignitions done, and under whose orders?
When was the department aware that the communications tower was burning? At what time did Yarnell lose cell phone service? At what time did power outages begin? At what point was the entire city of Yarnell without power. Before the manual ignitions began, what was the plan, if any, to protect the cell towers and the power transmission lines? Is protection of utilities a duty of the Yarnell Fire Department?
For those property owners whose property was damaged before BLM assumed incident management, how were they notified of the loss?
Numerous references have been made to “fire breaks” created by the Yarnell Fire Department using grant funds from the state and federal governments. Please list the funding sources, grant/contract numbers and terms (goal, time frame, funds received, etc.) for any state of federal funds received since 30 June 2013. For each fire break location, please list the dimensions and the technique used to create the break.
Was the Yarnell Fire Department responsible for ordering any slurry drops? If so, when were the slurry drops ordered and by whom and how much was officially dropped?
What are the gps coordinates of the tenderfoot fire origin?
Has the Yarnell Fire Department interviewed citizens from Yarnell, Stanton or any other communities to determine the origin of the fire?
Were any of the Old Stage Rd residents warned of fire by the Yarnell Fire Department?
These are questions specifically for the BLM
This is a Freedom of Information Request for information about the positions, qualifications, and assignments of all firefighters, Emergency Medical Technicians (EMTs), or other staff members working under the BLM who participated in the effort to fight the Tenderfoot Fire from 8 June 2016 until 20 June 2016.
At what time did BLM assume incident management of the Tenderfoot Fire?
What was the process by which BLM was notified that incident management was requested?
At the time BLM assumed incident management duties, who was in command of the firefighters in Yarnell? How did the transition occur?
At the time BLM assumed incident management duties, were any of the firefighters at the scene unqualified to participate in a BLM managed fire? If so, were they asked to leave the scene and by whom?
Numerous references have been made to “fire breaks” created by the Yarnell Fire Department using grant funds from the state and federal governments, including comments mad by RobRoy Williams and Alan Sinclair. Where were these breaks located? For each fire break location, please list the dimensions and the technique used to create the break.
What are the locations and amounts of slurry drops made during the management of the Tenderfoot Fire?
Please supply the Safety Data Sheets for the slurry type(s) used in the Tenderfoot Fire.
Thank you muzzy
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
done. completed.
Muzzy…I have interviewed the property owners so I know now but not at time email went out…that most were not notified… The owner all the way north was notified and escorted and ycso helped him as fire trucks stationed at his place. They did a direct 30-40 blaze near his shed greenhouse home as he was still present at his home so yes some knew and some not…
30-40ft high blaze
I learned this week from paladini and wwtktt that it has to be no questions just ask for direct specific records..is that right wwtktt?
Or is muzzy OK here
I think some of those ‘questions’ could still produce a response of…
“The Arizona Open Records laws do not require us to ‘investigate’ or answer any ‘questions’ about an incident. If you are requesting copies of specific ‘documents’, then please indicate that.”
Example…
“What are the GPS coordinates of the actual origin of the Tenderfoot fire?”
I believe they could STILL say “that is not a request for a document”.
But I believe they WOULD have to comply with something like the following…
“Please supply copies of any/all documents or emails or other records in your possession that indicate the exact GPS coordinates of the actual origin of the ‘Tenderfoot Fire'”.
There is no ‘question’ there and no ‘question mark on the end.
It’s a specific request for specific documents that contain specific information.
Joy,
Is that something you can do, or should I take another shot at it?
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
done. completed.
Good job!?
Cash reward for tenderfoot fire
http://kjzz.org/content/326423/cash-reward-offered-information-tenderfoot-fire-near-embattled-yarnell
From the article…
——————————————————————————-
The Tenderfoot Fire burned 4,087 acres near Yarnell earlier this month.
The cause of the fire is still under investigation, but officials are saying it was likely human caused.
Steve Skurja, director of the Yavapai Silent Witness Program, said they are now offering a cash reward for information leading to the cause of the fire and who may have sparked it.
“There were no clouds in the sky, there was no rain that day. This wasn’t an electrical fire as far as lightening goes,” Skurja said. “So, we’re assuming that somebody started this fire. Maybe it was accidental, maybe it was on purpose. These are the things we are trying to find out. These are the answers that we need.”
Skurja said he hopes the reward will help add incentive for those who know about the person or persons involved in starting the blaze.
The amount of the cash reward has not been determined.
——————————————————————————-
Followup…
Press release above says…
“The amount of the cash reward has not been determined.”
Actually… it has. It’s ( currently ) $5,000 dollars.
See the ‘Prescott eNews’ article below… which also has ‘pictures’ of what is thought to be the origin of the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’… about a half-mile in from Highway 89 on Mina Road.
http://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/27942-5k-cash-reward-for-information-leading-to-tenderfoot-fire-suspects
Prescott eNews
Article Title: $5K Cash Reward for Information Leading to Tenderfoot Fire Suspects
Published: 27 June 2016 – by Steve Skurja
http://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/27942-5k-cash-reward-for-information-leading-to-tenderfoot-fire-suspects
From the article…
————————————————————–
( PHOTO showing assumed ‘origin’ of the Tenderfoot fire )
( All photos by Lynne LaMaster )
PHOTO CAPTION:
The Tenderfoot Fire is thought to have originated in this area.
Direct link to the PHOTO at the top of this article…
http://www.prescottenews.com/media/k2/items/cache/8ec790d8f604699a3e5fb4c611f0006d_L.jpg
Yavapai Silent Witness Offers Cash Reward of $5,000.00
The Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office is asking for the public’s help in finding the person responsible for starting the Tenderfoot Fire east of Yarnell on June 8, 2016.
Yarnell residents first saw the black plume of smoke just southeast of their town around 2:30 PM that afternoon. Fire crews were quickly on the scene but not before the fire destroyed 4 out buildings and 2 microwave towers on a nearby hill.
The origin of the fire was just off of Mina Road about a half mile from Hwy 89 and south east of Yarnell.
( PHOTO: Another photo of the possible origin off Mina Road ).
If you have any information about any of these fires or if you saw anything suspicious in that area on those days please call Yavapai Silent Witness.
Remember that you never have to give your name and a $5,000.00 cash reward is being offered.
1-800-932-3232
The Tenderfoot Fire is thought to have started in the area depicted by the photos above.
————————————————————–
It is all well and good that they are serious about finding out who/what CAUSED the original ‘Tenderfoot’ fire… but notice that the ‘bullshit’ continues…
From the article…
Yarnell residents first saw the black plume of smoke just southeast of their town around 2:30 PM that afternoon. Fire crews were quickly on the scene but not before the fire destroyed 4 out buildings and 2 microwave towers on a nearby hill.
Total horseshit.
Now the ‘myth’ is that there were structures and celltowers destroyed BEFORE the “Fire crews were on the scene”.
The ORIGINAL ‘Tenderfoot fire’, over on the EAST side of ‘Y’ mountain, didn’t ‘burn any structures’.
It was ONLY the work of the firefighters themselves that caused any destruction of any structures on June 8, 2016.
Followup…
I left an important sentence OUT of the ‘cut and paste’ from the article content above. The sentence in the article that was left out was…
“Plus, just a few days before this fire other small fires were detected and extinguished near the Stanton Road which is also southeast of Yarnell.”
**
** ACTOR SAM QUINN WILL PLAY GM HOTSHOT GRANT MCKEE IN ‘THE MOVIE’.
>> On June 24, 2016 at 9:17 pm, Muzzy said…
>>
>> It looks like the profile photo for ( Brandon ) Bunch was erroneously uploaded to
>> the wrong position on the page. Maybe the production assistant responsible made
>> a mistake, or maybe she’s just sweet on him and did it for fun.
>>
>> On June 24, 2016 at 9:44 pm, WTKTT replied…
>>
>> You may be right.
>>
>> I think what HAD been happening is that when a new ‘actor photo’ was added
>> to the ‘Full Cast list’… that last ‘upload’ then became the new ‘top photo’
>> up on the banner itself.
Well.. so much for my theory.
The IMDB page for this “Granite Mountain” movie thing has ‘updated’, once again, and there are now TWO more ‘actors’ officially announced as ‘joining the cast’.
One is actor Sam Quinn, who appears in ‘Independence Day: Resurgence’, which just opened in theatres across the country this weekend.
He will be playing Granite Mountain Hotshot ‘Grant McKee’.
The other is the second African-American actor announced added to the cast but only listed as playing a ‘Firefighter’ and it doesn’t say if he is supposed to be playing an actual ‘Granite Mountain Hotshot’.
NOTE: To my knowledge, there was never an ‘African American’ crewmember on either the original Prescott ‘Crew 7’ Fuels crew or the subsequent ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Type 1 IHC’ crew.
His name is Isacc London, a British actor who won the British award for best ‘TV actor’.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/
BOTH of the new ‘annoncements’ have ‘thumbnail’ photos… but the top of the IMDB page did NOT ‘update’ to show either of the ‘new’ actors.
Former GM Hotshot ( now turned actor and playing his old friend Garret Zuppiger in the move ) Brandon Bunch STILL appears to be the only ‘actor’ with his photo at the TOP of the IMDB page, in the official ‘banner’ for the movie itself.
Caveat: I am actually not 100 percent for sure certain that really is a photo of former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch there serving as the official ‘top level featured actor’ photo for this “Granite Mountain” movie thing. It LOOKS like him… but I can’t say for sure that really is him.
That photo ‘appeared’ up there a the top of the page ( replacing the photo of lead actor Josh Brolin ) at the same time the IMDB page updated to show that ‘Brandon Bunch’ HAD been hired to play his old friend ‘Garret Zuppiger’ in this ‘movie’ thing… but I guess that doesn’t prove for 100 percent certain that Brandon’s photo is the one that replaced Brolin.
If that is NOT a photo of ‘Brandon Bunch’ there at the TOP of that IMDB page… then I don’t know who it is… because it certainly isn’t any of the OTHER ‘actors’ shown on the same page.
Well… maybe I should take the above ‘caveat’ back.
Former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch now has his OWN IMDB page, and the photo of him on his OWN ‘Actor profile’ page is the same exact one that is at the top of the “Granite Mountain Movie” IMDB page.
So if that isn’t him… then IMDB is also showing someone else’s photo for ‘Actor’ Brandon Bunch’s own IMDB profile page.
IMDB profile page for: Actor Brandon Bunch
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm8217867/?ref_=tt_cl_t15
From that page…
———————————————————–
Brandon Bunch – Actor
Brandon Bunch is an actor, known for Granite Mountain (2017).
( PHOTO – Same photo at the top of the “Granite Mountain” IMDB page )
Roles…
Granite Mountain – Zuppiger – 2017
Filmography
Actor (1 credit)
2017 Granite Mountain (pre-production) – Zuppiger
—————————————————————————
Reply to Bob Powers post on June 26, 2016 at 6:50 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The Big Problem is still that some States Like Idaho will not pass any laws
>> or regulations on Building codes and clearances for Homes in the Urban
>> Interface. DEFESIABLE SPACE AND ACCESS, FIRE WISE CONSTRUCTION.
>>
>> If the property owners are not required to provide protective measures for
>> their property including Fire safe construction of homes and buildings… ( then )
>> There is no way Fire Fighters can protect their homes from Wild Fire at the Last minute.
I think you are totally right… and I think it is the INSURANCE COMPANIES themselves
that HAVE to start taking the ‘lead’ on this.
After all… THEY are the ones who have to pay through the nostrils when all these homes in the ‘Beautiful Wildland Urban Interface’ become trees with doors in them.
THEY don’t NEED to WAIT for politicians to get off their asses and ‘do the right thing’.
THEY have the power to start ‘raising the standards’… right now.
You would be surprised ( actually, maybe you wouldn’t ) how many people can suddenly get ‘motivated’ to do what they are supposed to do the minute there is some tangible touchpoint in a place on their body that they actually ‘understand’.
That is… their ‘back pocket’… where their WALLET resides.
No ‘Firewising’… higher insurance rates. Pure and simple.
Every single year… I have to mail in a copy of my current inspection report for my chimney… or I pay a higher insurance rate.
Same concept.
Make people in the WUI prove they are doing SOMETHING ( hell, anything ) to be ‘Firewise’… or make them pay higher insurance rates than their neighbors who ARE ‘doing something’.
WTKTT,
From the LA Times:
Soaring insurance rates may accomplish what the Telegraph fire failed to do: drive the Stoffan family from their home of 10 years.
The Stoffans’ Northern California house survived the 2008 blaze, which destroyed 30 homes and 100 other structures as it charred 53 square miles west of Yosemite National Park.
But the family’s annual insurance costs doubled this year to $5,100 even though it planted a 50-foot lawn buffer around the house and installed fire-resistant landscaping, said John Stoffan, who lives there with his wife, mother and, occasionally, a son. Despite those precautions, the property carries a high fire-risk rating because the Stoffans live in Mariposa, where the already significant wildfire danger has been heightened by four years of drought.
Insurance companies are no smarter or kinder than any other bureaucracy. They will bleed the market dry before assessing risk realistically. And they will make money either way. Maybe we will need a national insurance similar to flood insurance, except that it needs to depend on real FireWise building and planning.
Good points. Yes… there have to be ‘controls’ coming from somewhere to prevent ‘gouging’. That is always the case in ‘this great country of ours’.
But the reality is…
If you build your house in a place that is prone to flood… sooner or later you are going to suffer damage from a flood.
If you build your house in a place that is prone to hurricanes… sooner or later you are going to suffer damage from a hurricane.
If you build your house in a place that is prone to wildfires… sooner or later you are going to suffer damage from a wildfire.
In the first two cases… the insurance company ‘acknowledge’ the ‘facts’ and it is usually reflected in insurance rates ( subject to certain price controls and, perhaps, a requirement for ‘supplemental’ insurance ).
It’s time it became the ‘norm’ for the THIRD case ( wildfires ).
You’ll never get everyone to ‘play along’. Some people don’t even believe in having homeowner’s insurance… and yes… some people can’t even AFFORD it, so they do without.
But it’s still a step in the right direction.
For the people who CAN afford it… hitting them in their wallets is sometimes the ONLY thing that will force them to ‘do the right thing’.
WTKTT,
It’s a mess, and it’s gone on so long now that turning it around will be real work. Before many of these areas were gentrified, they were mostly run like other rural areas, independent and self-sufficient. Only your family and your neighbors to save your bacon. Now it’s a bunch of city slickers who want the beauty of the forest with all the convenience of a suburb. Ugh!
The best article I read to date believe it or not was yesterday…
Thank you Yvonne.
Saw it on Holly Neill’s safety matter page.
Strength and courage equals Amanda Marsh.
Nicely done article.
And why it was so special to me is because I directly helped locally so many that my perception was another way..not near and geared to where I should of been on the losses… Almost like a disconnect and my focus was gathering information and I knew about her child hood story and I still was disconnected but that article reached me like no other article… Why I thought have I placed so many foias and gathered because of the folks I helped direct here locally but never did I think my actions and search really does not mean much but I felt I had to try and I really like RTS and Bob for their kind structured ways from the start and explaining their profession and Gary for his way of it because there is truth in it all yet in it all I saw another way I never saw before thanks to that article…Yvonne should be proud of her article and wwtktt should be proud for always bringing forth information… Thank you.
Well…I have some bad news/good news, good news/bad news for everyone.
1. Bad news – Reading about these geographical locations and looking at the photos of where the movie is being filmed is making me homesick since I spent 12 years of my career in and around Santa Fe. And since my old district, Tesuque/Espanola, started at the crest of the Sangre de Christo Mountains (more or less) and went west, Los Alamos and Pajarito Mountain is smack dab in the middle of that area. But…I guess what they say is true, you can’t go home…especially when you don’t have a home. #Tumbleweeds (I still don’t know how to use # but it looks right).
2. Good news – The movie goers who see this movie will say, “Yes, I can see why those men were willing to risk their lives to save that area…it looks like God’s Country!” And if they would have filmed it around Yarnell, movie goers would say, “What the fuck were they thinking? That looks like God Forsaken Country that should be allowed to burn!”
3. Good news – I have been told by a very reliable source of information that there is a lot more to this story that has not been told and that he and many others know what the details.
4. Bad news – We don’t have any way to get any of those people to come forward, at least on this blog or in any other format that I know of to get them to tell me and maybe you, (depending on who you are and who you know) what they know, so we are really dead in the water at least for right now.
5. Bonus good news – I have not heard anything that would lead me to believe that what we don’t know…is not what we think it is. In other words, I still believe there was a “Hail Mary Plan” that many if not all of the overhead in question bought into and Marsh was only too willing to buy into it as well…or it could even have been his plan that he sold to them to make himself and the crew look extra good to the good citizens of Prescott so the crew and his future job as the Wildlands Division Chief would not be cut.
So…I hope you do like I am doing, working on other projects while I still keep checking my email and this blog to see if anything has changed regarding what we know we don’t know and in the immortal words of Donald Rumsfeld, who was one of the chief architects of our unfunded war of choice in Iraq that cost so many lives and so much money, “Reports that say that something hasn’t happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don’t know we don’t know.”
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 26, 2016 at 12:43 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I spent 12 years of my career in and around Santa Fe. And since
>> my old district, Tesuque/Espanola, started at the crest of the Sangre
>> de Christo Mountains (more or less) and went west, Los Alamos and
>> Pajarito Mountain is smack dab in the middle of that area.
All the more reason they should have hired YOU as a ‘consultant’ ( or even a cast member ) for this stupid movie.
I guess you recognized right away, then, that this first round of filming was happening right there at the top of the ‘slopes’ of that Mt. Pajarito Ski resort.
If you just walk up the hill where that ‘fake GM crew’ is all sitting on the grass, you would be looking DOWN at all the Mt. Pajarito Ski Resort slopes… and the CAFE and ‘parking lot’ down at the bottom of the hill.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> Marsh was only too willing to buy into it as well…or it could even have been
>> his plan that he sold to them to make himself and the crew look extra good
>> to the good citizens of Prescott so the crew and his future job as the
>> Wildlands Division Chief would not be cut.
I think you just made a point that has not actually been discussed before… regarding more of Eric Marsh’s possible ‘motivations’ that day for ‘Esse Quam Videri-ing’ those men right into their graves.
It was JUST about Darrell Willis WRITTEN comments in Eric Marsh’s most recent ‘personnel evaluation’ where Willis states ( in writing ) “the future of this organization is in OUR hands now”… and Willis telling Marsh that there were already ‘forces’ at work to try and ‘defund/disband’ that GM organization.
It wasn’t JUST about Eric Marsh trying to make sure there more ‘hero’ reports to be made back to the Prescott City Council… ( or at least making sure there were no BAD reports getting back to them ).
It was about the fact that if the GM organization was ‘dismantled’… then there would also no longer be a need for a ‘Prescott Wildland Division Chief’.
And THAT is the job that Eric Marsh was ‘counting on’ for HIMSELF… in the not too distant future.
He was 43 years old. He KNEW his days ‘on the line’ were numbered.
He had just racked the shit out of himself in a mountain-biking accident.
He new his days were numbered for doing THAT kind of shit, as well.
‘Prescott Wildland Division Chief’ *might* have been the ONLY job he could even see for himself on the glide to retirement… along with the extra-cash of jobbing out as DIVS on the fires… BOTH of which just means you finally get to just ride around in the pickup trucks and says things into radios while everyone ELSE is out there getting heatstroke.
But… no ‘Granite Mountain’… no ‘Wildland Division Chief’ job either.
So BOTH of those ‘realities’ were most likely inextricably tied ‘together’ in the mind of this 43 year old Hotshot Superintendent.
I still think there needs to be a KIOSK at the ‘Observation Deck’ out at this new PUBLIC ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’.
The KIOSK should have a ‘Play Me’ button which autostarts a playback of the enhanced AUDIO of both of the background radio communications recorded at 4:13 PM and 4:27 PM.
Below the button is a little basket full of notepads and pencils, with a sign on the basket that says…
“If anyone recognizes ANY of the VOICES being heard in these radio communications from the afternoon of June 30, 2013… please write down the NAMES and deposit them in the waterproof slot up above. Thank you.”
Well…I am pretty sure NOBODY would want to have me or see me as a consultant on a feel good movie about the deaths of the crew. I mean…they are using Amanda Beno Marsh as a consultant…OMG!
And thank you for seconding what I was trying to say in my comment in your response but as usual saying it better. Would you like to write my book for me?
I have beat on that same drum before on this thread but nobody really jumped in and helped me, which is why I like to bring it up once and awhile just for shits and giggles (which is all find and dandy until somebody giggle and shits).
And that is why I hope to harness my ADHD long enough to finish my book, “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters” I am really going to bang on that drum in my book, the only problem is my ADHD makes it hard for me to focus and focus sounds like hocus and that reminds my of hocus pocus and I really like magic a whole whole lot, Oh…look there goes somebody waling a dog down my street, I’m sleepy, time for a nap..
Gary..a Sunday afternoon nap…hope you have no fires in the area or a lockable annoying persistent dog …
Nope…no wildfires around here. There is a reason why they call this a “rain forest.”
Just keep swimming… and look for the shells.
( From the new movie, ‘Finding Dory’, which proves once and for all that ADHD can be a real asset, sometimes ).
Yes, the therapist who my dear wife made me go listen to on the subject about 35 years ago said there is a very high concentration of those with ADHD who work in both firefighting and law enforcement. Bingo.
At least that’s what I think he said, I was really too busy trying to decide just what color of green the walls were, why the second hand on the clock on the wall moved so slowly, if he really meant it when he said his lecture would last two whole hours, if anybody else in the room was also carrying a concealed gun and if so, could I take them out before they got me and checking out the MILF in the front row while trying to decide if her husband (who wasn’t there) could beat me up or if my dear wife would mind if we invited her to go home with us after the geek who kept saying words I really couldn’t understand in the front of the room finally shut the fuck up.
And I am serious about writing my book for me. I am really good at making up titles for chapters, rough draft outlines and bullet points for ideas. I could shoot you bullet points of what I want to say and you could send me back completed chapters. I would even list you as a ghost writer using your nom de plume….WTKTT. So…what say you?
Whoops. I got distracted…again and forgot to tell you why there is a high concentration of those with ADHD in firefighting and law enforcement, which I am pretty sure you already know because you are scary smart.
The therapist said that those with ADHD make the best hunters because they can see things that normal people can’t see and process dozens or hundreds or thousands, I don’t know, I wasn’t listening very closely while he droned on and on, of bits of data in a fraction of the time someone without ADHD needs and be able to arrive at a viable solution that increases the odds the person with ADHD will survive an encounter with a wild animal or something that is truly dangerous…another person.
Furthermore, he concluded that is why ADHD genes have been passed down throughout the millennium because otherwise those people get fired and fail to attract a mate a lot.
I really do think though, that people with ADHD don’t function very well in small cubicles because I was put in cubicles and offices a few times and I almost went stark raving mad, so…
And even though you are scary smart, you apparently have a penchant for watching children’s movie even though I am pretty sure you don’t have any children…do you HAL 9000? Are you sure that is something you wanted to reveal about yourself…or was that a glitch in the matrix.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved5.html
“It can only be attributable to human error.”
Copyright HAL 9000, All Rights Reserved.
LMFAO – I am really getting with these Abbr’s. Next…learn how to text and how to make Face Book Friends.
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>>
>> LMFAO – I am really getting with
>> these Abbr’s. Next…learn how to text
>> and how to make Face Book Friends.
I think you should update the ‘Hal 9000’ logo at that link… and right in the center of it ( and below the quote )… include a small copy of that round ‘Granite Mountain’ logo.
In the final analysis…. that quote is directly relevant to whatever it is that REALLY happened in a place called Yarnell, the afternoon of June 30, 2013.
Pretty good idea HAL 2.0, except I found something else while looking for just the right logo. Something that made me go stone cold.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved5.html
I mean…someone would have to be at least qualified to be a Hollywood writer to make this shit up.
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 26, 2016 at 5:32 pm
>> Gary Olson asked…
>>
>> …was that a glitch in the matrix.
Negative, Dave. I heard it was one of the greatest achievements ever in the history of animation… and the rumors were TRUE. It is.
EVERYONE should see it. Go for 3D Extreme Digitial Ultrasound, if possible.
Whoops. Brain Fart. I meant ‘Surround-Sound’… not ‘Ultra-Sound’.
No one is going to tell you what the sex of your unborn child is just because you go and see ‘Finding Dory’.
At least… nowhere I know of.
OK…I stand corrected. I’m on it.
Oh…and one more thing. It looks like our unfunded war of choice in Iraq is definitely not over, so for everyone who thinks we should never have left, we are going back and we never really left. And that is the “royal” we since I’m not going anywhere.
When rich men start wars…poor men die. With some exceptions, I mean, Winston Churchhill did fight in the trenches in WWI and Al Gore did serve as a combat infantry officer in Vietnam and his father was a U.S. Senator.
If you break it, you bought it…and we broke it, so…
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 26, 2016 at 12:43 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I spent 12 years of my career in and around Santa Fe. And since
>> my old district, Tesuque/Espanola, started at the crest of the Sangre
>> de Christo Mountains (more or less) and went west, Los Alamos and
>> Pajarito Mountain is smack dab in the middle of that area.
>> On June 26, 2016 at 2:06 pm, WTKTT replied…
>>
>> I guess you recognized right away, then, that this first round of filming was
>> happening right there at the top of the ‘slopes’ of that Mt. Pajarito Ski resort.
>>
>> If you just walk up the hill where that ‘fake GM crew’ is all sitting on the
>> grass, you would be looking DOWN at all the Mt. Pajarito Ski Resort slopes…
>> and the CAFE and ‘parking lot’ down at the bottom of the hill.
There’s actually another public photo shot during the initial filming last week which proves, without a doubt, that the initial ‘filming’ was, in fact, all happening there on that ‘grassy slope’ on the south-facing side of the hill at the top of the Pajarito Ski Resort.
As it turns out… even the initial filming done last week there featured some other ‘name’ actors that are doing secret ‘cameo’ roles in this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing.
From a recent ‘press release’ put out by the ‘New Mexico Film Office’.
NM Filmography – the New Mexico Film Office
—————————————————————————
In addition to the already announced cast… the ‘Granite Mountain’ movie will be featuring a host of ‘guest appearances’ by other name actors.
Guest Actors: Grant Albrecht, Ray Abruzzo, Mimi Kennedy, Will McCormack, Josh Hopkins, Steve Eastin, Joseph Fur, Rebecca Wiscosky, Michael Grant Terry, etc.
—————————————————————————-
In the case of actor ‘Josh Hopkins’ ( who played the character ‘Liam O’Connor in the ABC TV series ‘Quantico’ )… whether he was ‘supposed’ to say anything about it or not… his appearance in the GM movie was confirmed in an interview that Hopkins did last week with an ESPN Sports Network reporter.
ESPN
Article Title: Quantico’s Josh Hopkins is Kentucky basketball’s biggest fan
Published: Jun 14, 2016, by Rachel Marcus – ESPN Editor
http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page/instantawesome-JoshHopkinsKentucky-160614/quantico-josh-hopkins-kentucky-basketball-biggest-fan
From that ESPN article…
—————————————————————————
On the ABC show “Quantico,” the character Liam O’Connor is an FBI-agent-turned-villain who was (spoiler) killed off in the Season 1 finale last month.
The actor who played agent O’Connor, Josh Hopkins, is a huge Kentucky basketball fan. We spoke to Hopkins about Wildcats basketball, how it relates to “Quantico” and what’s next for him.
(snip)
Hopkins is settling down from “Quantico” and is shooting a Josh Brolin movie called “Granite Mountain” for a few days this week. Always a Kentucky fan, Hopkins says he’ll try to pass some Wildcats content into future projects.
—————————————————————————
And, as a PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ social media site photo posted by producers ‘Black Label Media’ shows, actor Josh Hopkins was, indeed, there on that south slope of the Pajarito Ski Resort last week… playing some kind of US Forestry Service firefighter ( and/or supervisor ) having some kind of encounter with actor Josh Brolin ( playing Eric Marsh ).
Hopkins had a RED helmet on… but with an obvious USFS logo on the front of it.
Here is direct link to that ‘Black Label Media’ PUBLIC Instagram photo… published just 3 days ago and then reposted by actor Josh Hopkins on his OWN ‘public’ Instagram page…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHAhE4zIx-h/?taken-by=mrjoshhopkins&hl=en
The photo shows Josh Hopkins and Josh Brolin doing a ‘selfie’ there in-between filming on that south slope of the Pajarito Ski Resort.
Here is the ‘caption’ that actor Josh Hopkins himself added ( includiing his spelling mistake )…
“Just a couple Josh’s fighting Forrest fires”
The VIEW in the BACKGROUND is actually quite a famous one… showing a vista looking SOUTH from that south-facing grassy slope at the top of the Pajarito Ski Resort and out towards the ‘Valles Caldera’ itself.
Josh Brolin is ‘geared up’ to look like GM Superintendent Eric Marsh, and actor Josh Hopkins also has a RED helmet on, but with an obvious USFS logo on the front of it.
They are actually standing on that south-facing grassy slope at the top of the Pajarito Ski Resort in the following ( exact ) spot…
35.886001, -106.400990
Just click the following link to see exactly where actors Josh Hopkins and Josh Brolin were standing in the photo above… there on that ‘grassy slope’ on the south-side of the hill at the top of the Pajarito Ski resort…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/35%C2%B053'09.6%22N+106%C2%B024'03.6%22W/@35.8860053,-106.4031787,890m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.886001!4d-106.40099‘
Switch to ‘satellite mode’ and you will see they were standig just a few hundred yards south of the actual ‘ski slopes’ belonging to the Pajarito Ski Resort.
Looking at the background in this photo… ( the actual Valdes Caldera )…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHAhE4zIx-h/?taken-by=mrjoshhopkins&hl=en
…you DO have to wonder if the producers have decided that looks enough like the ‘Weaver Mountains’ to ‘pretend’ this really is ‘Yarnell, Arizona’… and they are going to just let the CGI graphics guys add the ‘town’ ( and the fire ) into the background ( in the distance ).
There IS a ‘horizon profile’ similarity going on there ( but, of course, the terrain and topgraphy is, like Gary said, NOTHING like the Weavers themselves ).
WTKTT,
This early action might just be one of the other fires GM fought, like HS2, to establish who they were relative to the FS IHCs that apparently were always dissing them. Or who were p*ssies. Or hillbillies….
I actually hope so… and that they aren’t so unconcerned about being accurate that they really DO think that ‘Valdes Caldera’ will ‘pass’ for the place where they all lost their lives.
Maybe they are even going to reproduce the incident where ( supposedly ) some other Hotshot group spray painted some line on the ground as a ‘message’ for ‘Granite Mountain’ that said “Don’t cross this line”?
You have to wonder if they ( the producers, etc. ) even KNOW that the ex-GM Hotshot they have actually HIRED to be an ‘actor’ and play his old friend Garret Zuppiger on the ‘fake’ GM crew ( Brandon Bunch ) is the one who said the following in hotshot-turned-author Kyle Dickman’s book…
—————————————————————————-
Brandon Bunch had been with Granite Mountain since 2010, the crew’s second year as hotshots.
Eric Marsh remained an enigma to him.
Bunch never felt he had a good read on his superintendent, but then, few people who worked with him did. One former colleague called him “an onion with layers he doesn’t let most people see”.
The more seasons Bunch worked for Granite Mountain, the more he felt that under Marsh’s command, the hotshots were ALWAYS having to PROVE themselves.
—————————————————————————-
I know that director Kosinski AND the producers have ALREADY said that this movie is going to be just similar to “The Perfect Storm”… and the incident for which the characters actually became ‘famous’ at all ( by dying ) is only going to be a short blurb at the END of the movie… but even so… I hope they still try to get the terrain right since that is such an important contributing factor to WHY they died… and WHY there is even a ‘movie’ in the first place.
It’s been said by Marti that the story of this fire was written by Shakespeare. Maybe it was written by Sophocles. A classic Greek tragedy, in which a single fatal flaw, usually an attempt to escape one’s fate or to ignore one’s own character flaws, leads inevitably to a tragic end. A cosmic smackdown.
The Greek ideal was a man who knew his own measure, no more, no less. To be the best you can be, but not to force or pretend. The GM Latin motto was ironic, to be rather than to seem. They could never just be.
Reply to Bob Powers post on June 25, 2016 at 6:12 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> More houses burned again. There were none there back in
>> the 60’s or at least very few.
>>
>> Urban Interface has really taken hold in some areas.
>> That is the real change in Wild Land Fire Today it has to be
>> addressed by the Powers To Be.
Thank you, Bob. Yes. You are RIGHT… and it looks like some action IS taking place there as far as just being willing to even ‘discuss the mission’ now, before more WFFs die doing something they are not even SUPPOSED to be doing.
Included below is the PLAIN TEXT version of that SWCG memorandum dated June 17, 2016, that John Dougherty recently posted online as part of the following article…
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: SW wildfire agencies issue updated structure protection rules
Published: June 20, 2016 By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/sw-wildfire-agencies-issue-updated-structure-protection-rules/
It is interesting to note that SWCG chose to include the following ‘caveat’ in the memorandum…
* The New Mexico Forestry Division does not have any structural fire suppression responsibilities.
…WITHOUT also mentioning that, according to recent court rulings in the Yarnell Property Damage appeals AND in the actual arguments that the Arizona Forestry lawyers presented to the judge in that case… it is ALSO totally true that the ‘Arizona Forestry Division’ ( like New Mexico ) has not one iota of ‘structural fire suppression responsibilities’.
Copies of all official Memorandums Issued by the SWCG…
http://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/swcg/operations/memorandums/memorandums.htm
As of this writing ( June 25, 2016 ), the June 17, 2016 SWCG memorandum regarding ‘Structure Protection Guidance’ is still NOT appearing on this page along with all the other official SWCG memorandums issued so far in 2016. The last memorandum appearing on that page is still the ‘SWA Type 3 IMT Guidance’ letter issued June 10, 2016.
It will be interesting to see if this June 17, 2016 memorandum EVER actually appears on the SWCG public page that contains their other ‘official’ 2016 memorandums.
Here is the FULL TEXT version of the SWCG June 17, 2016 memorandum issued by Loren DeRosear, the current Chair of the Southwest Coordinating Group.
———————————————————————————
Arizona State Forestry Division
Bureau of Indian Affairs: Southwest, Navajo, Western Regions
Bureau of Land Management: Arizona, New Mexico
National Park Service, lntermountain Region
New Mexico State Forestry Division
U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Region 2
U. S. Forest Service
June 17, 2016
To: Southwest Agency Administrators, Incident Commanders, and Zone Chairs
From: Southwest Coordinating Group
Topic: 2016 Southwest Area Wildland Urban Interface and Structure Protection Guidance
Background
Protection of structures and communities in the wildland urban interface is a shared partnership between the home and landowners and their servicing fire agencies. Structure and community protection represents both high risk operations and a source of large fire suppression costs for all fire agencies. Clarification on what, how, and where we will accomplish structure protection roles and responsibilities must be identified in advance, and we need to establish common expectations, for how we will handle structure protection in the Southwest Geographic Area, among all involved agencies and the public.
Per Federal Wildland Fire Policy as referenced in the 2016 Interagency Standards for Fire and Fire Aviation Operations Chapter 1 (page 3.34-3.44):
The operational roles of the federal agencies as partners in the wildland urban interface are wildland firefighting… Structural fire suppression is the responsibility of tribal, state*, or local governments. Federal agencies may assist with exterior structural fire protection activities under formal fire protection agreements that specify the mutual responsibilities of the partners, including funding. (Some federal agencies have full structural protection authority for their facilities on lands they administer and may also enter into formal agreements to assist state and local governments with structural protection.)
With the increased growth in the wildland urban interface, landowners must recognize their responsibilities to protect their homes and property. Therefore, the Southwest Coordinating Group (SWCG) promotes the creation of fire adapted communities that can survive the effects of a wildland fire without intervention.
Wildland fire agencies have primary responsibility for wildland fire suppression strategies within their respective protection areas, to include providing community defense and structure protection.
Wildland fire resources may work with assist local fire agencies in protecting communities and structures from an advancing wildland fire.
* The New Mexico Forestry Division does not have any structural fire suppression responsibilities.
Leaders Intent
SWCG’s first and foremost intent is to protect human life (i.e. keep our firefighters and the public safe). Secondly, once firefighter and public safety has been established, firefighting responders and resources will work aggressively to keep any wildland fire away from structures and communities. All strategies and tactics will be based on this intent; fully understanding we will not be able to protect structures in every situation. Management of risk to responders, fire behavior, resource availability, and other critical factors will all dictate and/or contribute to the appropriate strategy/strategies implemented.
When our firefighters engage in structure protection, we will ensure that they take safe, appropriate, and reasonable tactical actions for which they are trained and equipped. To remain cost effective, state and federal agencies may limit the use of tactics such as gelling, wrapping, extensive hazardous fuels modification, and utilization of structure engines.
Definitions
– Wildland Fire Protection: Protecting natural resources and municipal watersheds from damage from any fire that occurs in the wildland. State, tribal and federal forestry or land management and some local government agencies normally provide wildland fire protection.
– Structure Protection: Protecting a structure from the threat of damage from an advancing wildland fire. This involves the use of wildland fire protection strategies, tactics, and practices for the purposes of establishing wildland fire control and prevent the spread of wildfire from impinging upon structures. The protection can be provided by both the rural and/or local government fire departments and wildland fire protection agencies.
– Structure Fire Suppression: Interior or exterior actions taken to suppress and extinguish a burning structure or improvement associated with standard fire protection equipment and training. This responsibility is generally performed by local structural fire qualified governmental entities; however, there are areas where there is no structural fire agency in place.
Unified Efforts
Fire agencies may have a shared responsibility for wildland fire and structure protection within the scope of their state laws, agreements, and annual operating plans. Agency Administrators will discuss, with their partners, appropriate apportionment of roles and responsibilities, capabilities of each party, how the parties will interface with each other, and how the patties will address costs. Agency Administrators will provide leaders’ intent for structure fire protection based on the guidance contained here; and Incident Management Teams will engage local government agencies (fire departments, law enforcement, disaster services, etc.) and wildland firefighting contractors working for insurance companies in the planning of strategies and tactics for community and structure protection.
There are areas in the Southwest where no local structure protection fire agency exists. Through established agreements and authorities, the wildland fire protection agencies may have the responsibility to engage in structure protection, but landowners maintain primary responsibility for both structure protection and structure fire suppression when no local fire authority has been formed to provide structure fire protection.
It is important for SWCG’s supporting agencies to:
– Partner with communities as well as individual home and landowners to identify what actions can be taken to mitigate potential wildland urban interface losses, as well as to identify financial and technical assistance opportunities for home and landowners.
– Identify how the parties will work together when a wildland fire impacts another agency with jurisdictional responsibility.
– Establish agreements and/or local operating plans to identify roles and responsibilities prior to the wildland fire.
Capabilities
Wildland fire resources across the Southwest generally do not have the responsibility per policy as well as the capability and training to perform structure fire suppression actions.
Some local fire agencies may have limited capability within their own areas of jurisdiction to respond to a wildland fire. It is important to understand what capability the local agency has and whether the local agency has options to reach out to others through mutual aid or other mechanisms to enhance local capability,
SIGNED: Loren DeRosear 6/17/16
Chair, Southwest Coordinating Group
—————————————————————–
The Big Problem is still that some States Like Idaho will not pass any laws or regulations on Building codes and clearances for Homes in the Urban Interface. DEFESIABLE SPACE AND ACCESS, FIRE WISE CONSTRUCTION.
If the property owners are not required to provide protective measures for their property including Fire safe construction of homes and buildings. There is no way Fire Fighters can protect their homes from Wild Fire at the Last minute.
Even the fires they start…they can’t protect…if you know the flood plains than you know where not to build..you build a home outside a city in certain terrain than you make sure there is nothing that can burn your home..proper defensible space. This ca fire that took out a lot of homes and lives…so my question will it get same treatments response yhf got..nah…19 lives of the professional level as wildland firefighters did not get proper investigation than I doubt this fire will…now for the RTS and Bob who state what they do let me show you a good example than see your assessment…k
Home had perfect defensible space and the couple were asleep during the fire that was way over on the weavers no where near their home than their dog licks them and barks and this is facts..then the man deep asleep on his Sunday afternoon nap smells smoke as his hallway was ON fire and now he has to get him and his wife out…than Joy interviewed neighboring folks to see if ycso or any evacuation notice… If it was not for their dog these two could of died in the yhf so tell me eta and Bob what do you tell this man who had to lose his home and the retardant drop was by his home than soon after his wife got new health issues than she dies than you yourself get serious health concerns and end up in a nursing home that you said you would never live in but have dementia so it is what it is…until RTS or Bob walk and MEET the people and the real accounts… Stop thinking that’s THE SOLUTIONS are the defensible space or they did ignitions fairly well when it should of never been lit…its fucked up…its easy to write beliefs…but to see it all vs just beliefs… I don’t drink but thinking like that I think I should have a new belief…I believe I will have another… Because maybe then I can forget all this horseshit but can’t due to my health already…yeah I am upset that this movie was originally to be about the most horrific tragedy where lives were lost than homes and now EGO changes format of direction of movie to be just about the men… That’s a bullshit from my view and does not honor ALL fallen and all who lost a home to a fire may it be man set or aka burnout operations gone wrong…the fucked ilup part is people ohhh and I with sighs when I’m doing defensible space and I burn leaves in a fire container with lid and how can you Joy …how insensitive… Than same ones praise the idiots that placed their burns so near to people and structures and burn shit up and they are heroes for saving a town…praise them and even have RTS come out of the shadows to applaud their fairly well done job when it never had to be lit in first place and if you think so than tell the eyewitness who saw original fire burning itself out… If anything from recent fire I am really disliking the way they fight fires and destroy lives…
There is more than defensible space to consider that is only part of the Fire wise assessment.
Construction of the home is the other piece of the puzzle. Fire proof roof and Walls enclosed rafters and porches keeping your Roof clean of all flammable materials. Removing Plants and trees that are flammable at least 30 Ft. from all buildings. Evergreen plants and trees like pines are very flammable and up against a house will ignite material that is not fire proof. Untreated Asphalt Shingles will ignite. Wood piles up against the House or on a Porch will ignite.
If you do not have a House that is constructed with Non-Flammable Material then you absolutely have to provide more open area and remove all flammable material with in 30 Ft or more of the Home and any other structures.
My final point look at the Helms Ranch and their home that withstood the 2000 degree Temp. and 100 Ft. Flame Lengths. The type of construction helped their place survive with difensiable space.
Being Fire Wise means more than Difensiable Space.
I truly have no clue on all the Deaths in Yarnell. The Fire Retardant may not be the problem and I am surprised by that assumption.
Having not been there for the Back Fire or the Reason for it I can not defend or applaud that decision. The main factor I think was the knee jerk reaction caused by the Yarnell Fire to protect the Subdivision Right or Wrong.
They basically did that though they lost 3 or 4 Structures. Much better than the Yarnell/Glen Isla Out Come. The question is did the Back Fire save the Housing Development?
Reply to Bob Powers post on June 28, 2016 at 7:44 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> There is more than defensible space to consider that
>> is only part of the Fire wise assessment.
Agreed… but the ‘phrase’ you keep hearing most in all the media articles coming from the ‘fire people’ themselves is ‘defensible space’.
That always seems to be their biggest concern./ desire.
What they seem to always be saying is that they just want a ‘chance’ to be able to ‘defend the structure’… and then we end up with just more scenarios like ‘rocksteady’ already described…
————————————————————–
On June 24, 2016 at 8:06 am, rocksteady said…
Just look at the Twisp Fire.
No hotshots, but definitely HUBRIS..
I think its rampant in the whole WLFF world right now… I watched some news clips from California the other day and see the same “hero” mentality again and again…
People in flimsy Nomex trying to put out 50 foot tall flames in manzanita and other useless brush crap with a 1″ hose line, near a house, with the fire burning on 3 sides of them and only 1 escape route out of the subdivision…
————————————————————–
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Construction of the home is the other piece of the puzzle.
Agree. VERY important… and any/all of the things you just listed should produce ‘breaks’ in insurance rates.
Right up there with people in ‘flood’ areas finding out what the correct HEIGHT should be for their home based on 1,000 year flood predictions ( or better ), and making sure the house is ABOVE that HEIGHT.
They should get ‘breaks’ on their ‘insurance rates’. No question.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> My final point look at the Helms Ranch and their home
>> that withstood the 2000 degree Temp. and 100 Ft. Flame
>> Lengths. The type of construction helped their place
>> survive with difensiable space.
Again… I agree… but using the BSR as an example is a ‘fringe case’.
Yes… Lee and DJ Helm should have been getting HUGE ‘breaks’ on their ‘insurance rates’… but Lee Helm is worth MILLIONS of dollars. There needs to be a way for the ‘average Joe’ to also get ‘break’ on their insurance if they are doing whatever THEY can to create ‘defensible space’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I truly have no clue on all the Deaths in Yarnell. The Fire
>> Retardant may not be the problem and I am surprised
>> by that assumption.
I know that you, personally, have never suffered any ill effects… and you don’t really know anyone who you worked with who HAS… but the fact remains that a certain percentage of the actual ‘chemicals’ that are present in that shit remains a ‘secret’… and they have never been ‘studied’.
Even the ‘official’ health-risk report that US Forestry was ordered to do by a Court of LAW did NOT have ‘access’ to ALL of the ‘ingredients’ when they did their ‘official’ health-risk study… and for some reason… the Judge who had ordered US Forestry to finally even DO that helath-risk study thought that was ‘acceptable’.
We KNOW it kills fish. ( US Forestry acknowledges this in memos ).
But to this day… we still do NOT KNOW what ALL of the actual ingredients in that shit really area.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Having not been there for the Back Fire or the Reason for
>> it I can not defend or applaud that decision.
How about the aftermath… with firefighters all LYING about it?
LYING about where the fire even was when they started their own burns?
LYING about WHY structures got burned?
LYING about there being ‘100 foot wide graded firebreaks’?
LYING about the actual ‘origin’ of the fire ( on the IAP maps )?
Do you ‘applaud’ or ‘defend’ THAT behavior?
Even the Peeples Valley firefighters seen hauling ass down the driveway where the structure was now totally engulfed in flames got on camera 48 hours later and LIED about the actual circumstances which caused that destruction.
That LIE is now like a ‘fish story’… and the ‘fish’ keeps getting bigger.
The recent announcement about the REWARD now takes it even a step further and says that the structures and the celltowers were all destroyed BEFORE the firefighters even got there.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The main factor I think was the knee jerk reaction
>> caused by the Yarnell Fire to protect the Subdivision
>> Right or Wrong.
Well… as long as we seem to be conducting our own sort of ‘After Action Review’ ( AAR ) of this ‘Initial Attack’ ( did THEY? )… then I agree with your assessment.
It was, primarily, just a ‘knee jerk’ reaction, and not entirely based on the ‘FACTS ON THE GROUND’ and/or the ‘CURRENT AND EXPECTED’ fire location/behavior.
The fire was already blowing AWAY from Yarnell when they decided to do those MASSIVE burnouts.
The WIND was pretty stiff… and it was blowing TO the NORTH / NORTHEAST, and AWAY from Yarnell.
Every weather prediction from every weather source for the rest of the afternoon and into the evening night showed no predicted ‘reversal’ of those winds… and indeed…. all the predictions said that the wind would develop an even MORE ‘easterly’ component as the afternoon/evening wore on… and take the fire even more AWAY from Yarnell ( and that is exactly what DID happen ).
And now that we can see that at least SOME of the firefighters that were allowed to START those ‘burnouts’ had their heads up their asses… that means this ‘knee jerk’ reaction itself COULD have gone horribly wrong.
They could have burned down some/all of the entire EAST side of Yarnell all by themselves, due to this ‘knee jerk’ reaction.
From an ‘After Action Review’ standpoint… I don’t think anyone should be getting any actual ‘gold stars’ for this.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> They basically did that though they lost 3 or 4 Structures.
>> Much better than the Yarnell/Glen Isla Out Come. The
>> question is did the Back Fire save the Housing Development?
From an ‘After Action Review’ standpoint… I think the FIRST question is…
“Was the backfire even necessary?”
It was actually VERY ‘unlikely’ that that fire on the EAST side of ‘Y’ Mountain would have ‘charged’ down that western slope, AGAINST the prevailing winds, before it had either ‘burned itself out’ or just ‘moved on’ to the NORTH / NORTHEAST and out into the boondock.
There was also enough ‘Heavy Iron’ in the Air over Yarnell ( VLAT, Twin Engine tanker, multiple SEATS, multiple Helicopters, etc. ) to have just gone ‘direct’ on whatever fire WAS over there on the EAST side of ‘Y’ Mountain, and prevented it from even coming over the ridge before it moved away into the EASTERN boondock.
The OUTCOME was GOOD ( if you ignore the fact that it then took 4+ MILLION dollars to finally suppress the fire that resulted from the massive burnouts themselves ).
First and FOREMOST…
1. NO ONE DIED trying to defend ’empty houses’ ( Twisp, Yarnell… etc. ).
Then…
2. NO ONE WAS INJURED trying to defend ’empty houses’.
3. MINIMAL STRUCTURE DAMAGE. The McKiddie’s were probably insured, and their insurance company probably will NOT ‘deny’ their fire damage claim and make they try to get their money from the people actually responsible for THAT destruction ( the firefighters themselves ), and I’m sure that ‘Coastal Communications’ was pretty pissed that the manual burnouts seem to be what took out their own building at the foot of the celltowers… but they have insurance as well and even the million or so dollars it will take to replace the loss just sitting under their couch cushions.
But it’s the post-incident LYING that I still just don’t get.
Even when they are SUCCESSFUL… these people can’t seem to help themselves and have to LIE about how it all really went down.
I do not in any way condone the Lying.
The % of chemicals in retardant have been there for ever.
The Fish kill is from the Retardant that takes the Oxygen out of the Water That also has been from the beginning of Retardant Mixes
In order for the Retardant to stay wet for a longer period the mixture removes the Oxygen.
Air Attack is instructed not to drop on Streams or Creeks because of that problem.
DEFENCIABLE SPACE—-Means a area a fire Engine and crew can get to and protect the structure with safe access and a turn around.
The more the cleared area the better.
Wild land Fire Fighters Have fought Fires with ONE INCH HOSE for ever. Inch and a half and larger are mainly for house fires. The reason most WL Fire Eng. are 500 Gallons some brush Engines Flat bed types are 300 Gal. You have to manage you water and the 1 inch dose that very effectively and efficiently. You are right if you are trying to put out a house fire.
Insurance company’s very in costs. There is one out there that provides house protection and pre vegetation removal for Mountain home owners, there is one such company in Sun Valley.
Been following the Erskine fire Lake Isabella Kernville area. My old stomping grounds for my first three years in the FS. I don’t believe there was ever a fire in that area till this week most were in the Kern River Canyon.
Any way more houses burned again. There were none there back in the 60’s or at least very few.
Urban Interface has really taken hold in some areas. That is the real change in Wild Land Fire Today it has to be addressed by the Powers To Be.
I would add on the Memorial for those that have not gone to the Rattle Snake Fire Memorial and looked at what they did and what they laid out it is so much more FF friendly and very serine.
Even the Crosses do not have the names of the fallen they are JUST MARKERS that any one can walk through. 2 inch Square tube metal crosses Painted white. and one big cross on the Rock out cropping. A trail and noted lactations with Signs. The Rock memorial looks across at the fatality location. with a information plack and a couple of benches. Also a Camp Table. They keep the area up and the trails. No one in 10 years has bothered the memorial easily accessible in California.
The FS keeps it up just like a Camp ground or I should say the Mendocino HS keep the site well manicured. For a chaparral setting.
**
** 4-4-40 CHALLENGE ON THE ‘GRANITE MOUNTAIN’ MOVIE SET
Actors playing ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’ taking the 4-4-40 self-waterboarding challenge on the set of the movie.
( 4-4-40 means ‘Drink 4 quarts of water within 4 minutes and then try not to puke for 40 seconds’ ).
WARNING: If you don’t like watching professional actors ( or anyone ) puking their socks off, don’t watch this video.
This was posted by actor Geoff Stults to his PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ page about a week ago, circa June 18, 2016.
Stults is the one on the LEFT side of the video as it begins… and the second one to puke.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGzn72mOWyr/?taken-by=geoffmstults
Geoff Stults is, apparently, one of the professional actors hired to be part of the ‘fake’ Granite Mountain crew, but is nor receiving any ‘billing’ on the movie’s IMDB page ( as yet ).
Geoff Stults – American actor – IMBD page…
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0836176/
———————————————————–
Geoff Stults was born in Detroit and raised in Colorado. Attended Whittier College from 1994-1998, where he performed in some theatrical productions and played division III football. Played professional Football in Europe as a wide receiver. He acted in the long running show, 7th Heaven (1996), in which he played Ben, the brother of Kevin Kinkirk who is portrayed by George Stults, his real life brother with whom he lives in Los Angeles. In 2006 he was cast as Eddie Latekka on ABC’s
“October Road”.
———————————————————–
** FIRST GLIMPSE OF ENTIRE ‘FAKE’ GM CREW FROM THE MOVIE SET
Shot of 17 members of the ‘fake’ Granite Mountain Crew resting on the grass, on Pajarito Mountain, New Mexico.
Posted by Black Label Media producer ‘Ellen Schwartz’ to her PUBLIC Instagram page, and reposted on Black Label Media’s Instagram page…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BG-fP6Ejcdy/
** Ellen Schwartz…
Her PUBLIC Instagram page…
https://www.instagram.com/ellenhschwartz/
From this photo… it appears that it is ‘confirmed’ now that actor James Badge Dale is the one who is playing ‘Jesse Steed’ in this movie.
Actor Josh Brolin ( playing Eric Marsh ) is on the LEFT side of the photo, sitting in the grass and still wearing his RED Helmet and staring down at his smartphone.
Actor James Badge Dale is to Brolin’s LEFT, with his helmet in his lap.
It’s the only other RED Helmet seen in the photo, which indicates James Badge Dale is most likely the one playing ‘Jesse Steed’ in the movie.
One of Producer Ellen Schwart’s recent photos also shows the ‘basecamp’ there up on Pajarito Mountain… and a helicopter about to land there amidst the tents and all the film equipment.
**
** THE NEXT SEGMENT OF ‘SKY 12’ HELICOPTER FOOTAGE
**
** 6:17:39 PM TO 6:28:09 PM
‘Sky 12’ News Helicopter footage of the Yarnell ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ taken June 8, 2016, from 6:17 PM to 6:28 PM (continuous footage, no break)
https://youtu.be/VTryT1KV1qI
**
** THE NEXT SEGMENT OF CONTINUOUS FOOTAGE FROM HELICOPTER ‘SKY 12’
** OVER YARNELL ON THE AFTERNOON/EVENING OF JUNE 8, 2016.
**
** FROM 6:07:39 PM TO 6:18:09 PM
Here is the next ‘segment’ of video from the HOUR and 1/2 of continuous ‘Sky 12’ Helicopter footage shot over Yarnell the afternoon/evenng of June 8, 2016.
This segment begins the ‘real time’ of 6:07:39 PM on June 8, 2016, and it ends at the ‘real time’ of 6:18:09 PM.
This next video segment is 10 minutes and 30 seconds long. ( YouTube doesn’t like videos that are more than 11 or 12 minutes in length ).
https://youtu.be/f4ISdTOHpbQ
It begins where the last video segment left off, with ‘Sky 12’ zoomed in on the group of 12 to 13 firefighters standing on a hillside on the south side of Yarnell, near the Dollar General, watching just one other FF use a drip torch to ‘light up’ one of the brush lots there at the south end of ‘Looka Way’ and directly behind the new ‘Dollar General’ store.
‘Sky 12’ then pans back to the NORTH side oof Yarnell, along the already-ignited burns on Crest Way, and then ‘zooms down’ for closeups again on the NORTH side of Yarnell. Teams of FFs ( and BLM vehicles ) are there on the NORTH end of Crest Way and lighting even more fire now along ‘Buckeye Road’.
At +4:20 into this video segment ( real time on June 8, 2016 of 6:11 PM ), ‘Sky 12’ returns to the SOUTH side of Yarnell and then ‘zooms in’ to the EAST side of the ridge, to show what is happening there, at that time, on the EAST side of ‘Y’ mountain, and out around ‘Mina Road’.
At +6:25 into this video segment ( real time on June 8, 2016 of 6:14 PM ), ‘Sky 12’ zooms in on the celltower there on Antelope peak. The area has already been burned.
‘Sky 12’ then returns to the NORTH side of Yarnell and continues to show the massive burnouts that are now in progress there, all along ‘Buckeye Road’. Many firefighters are clearly seen there walking along ‘Buckeye Road’ and continuing to light fires.
This video segment ENDS with another slow ‘pan’ back to the SOUTH end of Yarnell, along all the ignitions that have been set, and this segment ends where it started, with a ZOOM DOWN on the fires that were manually set just behind the Dollar General store.
NOTE: The AUDIO that you are hearing in the background in these ‘Sky 12’ video segments appears to be conversation(s) taking place in the ‘Channel 12’ control room itself. Apparently, this LIVE ( continuous ) video was actually being captured back there at the ‘Channel 12’ station itself… and whatever device was being used to capture this continuous LIVE FEED from ‘Sky 12’ also had an ‘open microphone’ that was capturing the background conversation THERE, in the control room, WHILE this continuous ‘Sky 12’ video was being recorded.
Thanks for the footage. All this looked to me like a fairly well orchestrated and well managed firing operation based on the fuels, weather, topography, control line features, and WFF resources on hand.
When fires get this big or sometimes to prevent them from getting this big, you just have to ‘light up’ unburned fuels as long as you know what you’re doing.
At the time we now see them still lighting up everything in sight there on that NORTH side of ‘Crest Way’ and ‘Buckeye Road’, the ignitions that had been previously set on the SOUTH end of Crest Way ( and north along Crest Way ) that had already burned the McKiddie’s garage + workshop to the ground had already burned up the entire WEST side of ‘Y’ mountain, and had already crossed over the ridge and continued to the NORTHEAST.
THOSE are the ‘fires’ that would then become known as the actual ‘Tenderfoot Fire’, that it would them take 4+ million ( MILLION ) dollars to extinguish.
By the way… is it normal to be lighting these all these kinds of ignitions in a direction whereby the ones you have just lit are blowing back TOWARDS you while you continue walking along lighting the others?
In other words… isn’t it customary to light these ‘lines’ starting DOWNWIND, and then work your way UPWIND, so what you have already ‘lit’ isn’t blowing right AT you while you continue to light more fires?
These guys were doing the opposite.
They were lighting fires UPWIND and then walking DOWNWIND to light even more while trying to stay out of harm’s way from the ones they had already started.
We watched it “live” and I guess that’s what I need help comprehending.. Is RTS saying they did good job..I’m not comprehending
It worked as rock steady pointed out but I am not gonna say I understand because in it I learned its an exercise of futility because the original fire burnes itself out and was not headed here…it was there drip torch walking that lit a nice area near town then COST too much monies and whybis that OK on a fire that was reported away from town and how come the praise for the men when there was losses… Hard for me to understand
Real event.
Its an early Monday morning…just had major surgery on that Friday before… Lawyer and four others conference call me…asked me to come back to hospital because they were missing the scalpel in their equipment count…. Need xray to confirm…so the long term damage should those errors be noted RTS so it does not happen again and there is a record for lessons learned…or do we just say by your assessment knowing the team it won’t happen again and just say internally mistakes happened and hope it don’t happen again than to have future specialist look at it and think liability and don’t engage to have one special lady in the field say if you don’t make note to medical board I will because that should of never happened to you Joy and then out of curiosity you look him up and he did not have anything down before me but he did after me and these women can’t move ahead as I have done…I am more puzzled and bewildered by both Yarnell fires that the original was far away from town but full knowing the twists this towns winds can get..quite squirrely that one would even engage in a burnout operations so near to people and structures because one man was in his home when they burned behind his place early on…so its hard to make sense…of it all…because a long time ago I would never fall in a has been category but my health has never been the same since he made the mistakes and noons has properly treated me because I am always getting you are lucky to be alive but none wants to FIX what that man did wrong…so again RTS how can you stand firm on they did right when there was a loss 6-8-16…help me get it how all these people can screw things up and get praised…??????
Ivleft a comment . Here too
https://youtu.be/VTryT1KV1qI
Joy,
I’m sorry you’re having to deal with incompetent surgery issues.Get a good attorney.
You posted: “so again RTS how can you stand firm on they did right when there was a loss 6-8-16…help me get it how all these people can screw things up and get praised…??????”
If I am correct, the WFF doing this firing operation CORRECTLY around the structures are not the same ones who burned around and underneath your neighbor’s garage and burned it up.
Is that correct?
MOST times, whenever there are structures to defend, ‘perimeter control’ or containing the fire takes on a lower priority, especially if there are no Resources to take care of fireline containment.
I posted it looks like their firing operation was “FAIRLY WELL MANAGED.”
Ideally, based on the wind and/or slope, you are supposed to light it so that it burns away from you upslope or downwind.
There is a point about the 9:00 mark, where the wind is paralleling the road and the igniters appear to be doing it slightly different as you suggest, just to keep up with it.
We’re going to try some graphics here. Maybe an IM first!
=================== road WIND ^^^^ FLAT GROUND
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ignitor I I
I I
^^^^^^^^^^^^ ignitor
^^^^^^^^ ignitor Burn INTO the wind
ridge DOWNSLOPE
V
V
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ignitor
^^^^^^^^^^^^ ignitor
^^^^^ ignitor Burn DOWNSLOPE
based on the wind
Hopefully, this works.
What the WFFs in Yarnell on June 8, 2016 THOUGHT…
——————————————————
MAIN FIRELINE COMING OVER RIDGE AND GOING TO
BURN AGAINST THE WIND DOWN TOWARD TOWN
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ – WIND DIRECTION
( No ‘road’ or firebreak, just backs of property )
HOUSE + HOUSE + HOUSE + HOUSE, etc.
——————————————————
What the reality was…
——————————————————
NO FIRELINE BURNING TOWARDS TOWN AT ALL.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< – WIND DIRECTION
( No 'road' or firebreak, just backs of property )
HOUSE + HOUSE + HOUSE + HOUSE, etc.
——————————————————-
Yes, I get it. And the graphics do help.
It can be done fairly easily in light fuels, like grass, needles, or leaves without any kind of control line especially IF there is a brick, block, or cement stem-wall.
Another option in light fuels would be a simple wet line against the house.
We have often fired out around structures with little or no preparation, especially around mining claims and associated structures, while they were at home, but not necessarily IN the structure.
Are you actually saying there is NO requirement in the WFF world to even INFORM the residents of a piece of property that you are about to start torching shit all around their house?
Or to even make SURE they are not IN THE HOUSE before you start lighting fire right next to/near it?
That that kind of behavior can be considered ‘normal’?
I never said anything about just walking up to their structures and firing out around them without telling anyone. Always looking for the drama ….
I don’t know of any notification requirement per se, however, we always check with and then notify home owners in person and/or by phone about firing operations in their neighborhoods and especially around their structures.
Firing operations are often a necessary tactic, especially when the fires are large and/or exhibiting aggressive fire behavior.
It is not a perfect science, however, it is an art AND a science that requires training and experience to do it safely, effectively, and efficiently without burning down anyone’s structures.
Using the aforementioned bungled garage firing operation as an example based solely on the photo evidence, it APPEARS to me that there was an attempt to fire on the right side (looking uphill perspective) of the structure (based solely on the discoloration of the brush) in a line downslope. It APPEARS that the bulk of open flame below the house (was the result of a possible slight wind shift and/or topographical anomaly that MAY have caused this to flare up and then hook underneath the structure and run upslope though the unburned fuel above it as a head fire and take out the structure. I am NOT saying that is what happened, only that it APPEARS that way based SOLELY on the photo evidence.
A more proper way to accomplish it successfully would have been to fire off directly at the house and BACK IT DOWNSLOPE INTO THE WIND AND AGAINST THE SLOPE, thus avoiding a head fire.
A fairly standard, text book maneuver that could have and should have been successful based on training and experience, allowing for the sometimes complicated environmental factors of slope and wind and topographical features.
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckd7RITWUAAX9KH.jpg
Key phrase: “Based on training and experience”.
There is a high likelihood whoever started that manual ignition ( or told others to do it ) had neither…. but they were allowed to ‘order it’ anyway.
If the goal was to burn off that ‘lot’ there to the south of the McKiddie residence… then without first ‘prepping’ the residence and REMOVING that brush that went right UP to ( and UNDER ) the garage + workshop… I don’t see how anyone with a brain could NOT have realized that what eventually happened was exactly what was GOING to happen… before ‘lighting it up
The way the wind was ACTUALLY blowing… then of course any Engine you sent up the McKiddie driveway would have to do a ‘forced retreat’ because when the flames neared the structure… they would be blowing AT the Engine and the firefighters ( which is exactly what Denise Roggio’s VIDEO shows ).
I still think one of the key things to be seen in that photograph ( your link above ) is what is in the distance… or rather… what is NOT in the distance.
There was NO ‘main fireline’ burning DOWN the slope and AGAINST THE WIND and “threatening the structures”… as so many firefighters have now been quoted as saying.
If this was in the initial and/or extended attack portion of the fire, one of the local FD or VFD FF’s could have ordered/directed and then fired this out because it was in their Fire District and/or in their jurisdiction.
That’s what they are paid to do based on the residents paying for the fire protection with their hard earned tax dollars.
I am in no way defending what they did, especially based on the tragic outcome. All I’m saying is that it would have and should have been a fairly simple firing operation to complete.
Did the Tenderfoot Fire eventually burn through this neighborhood and/or is this one of the neighborhoods where structures were burned?
Based solely on the photo evidence in this image in the early stages of the Tenderfoot Fire, and with this fire location and the CURRENT AND EXPECTED fire behavior, the firing operations around structures would have been justified.
http://meredithaz.images.worldnow.com/images/10738468_G.jpg
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
June 26, 2016 at 11:56 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Based solely on the photo evidence
>> in this image in the early stages of
>> the Tenderfoot Fire, and with this
>> fire location and the CURRENT AND
>> EXPECTED fire behavior, the firing
>> operations around structures would
>> have been justified.
http://meredithaz.images.worldnow.com/images/10738468_G.jpg
I disagree.
Within a short time after this picture was taken… enough ‘heavy iron’ was going to arrive in the air over Yarnell that they could have gone direct on what was still, essentially, a small fire on the EAST slope of ‘Y’ mountain, with the winds blowing AWAY from town and predicted to remain that way.
I think whoever was in charge, at that point, simply panicked.
RTS,
Based solely on the suggestive evidence of the written words you have consistently & painstakingly crafted while contributing to the blog known as Investigative Media, sponsored by Mr. John Dougherty, and furthermore disregarding any and all positive contributions you have obviously made during your long tenure in the wildland firefighting profession throughout your many years of service, I have determined that you have culminated into the appearance of a shill.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Regarding your post concerning your subjective determination that I have ‘culminated into the appearance of a shill,” I would ask once again, WTF are you talking about this time?
And I would tell you to ESAD.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-340625
in a way I have to thank Prescott attorney Jon Palidini today for his correspondence letter gave me the answers as well as credit due to wwtktt for a slice of wisdom…so all my foias are redone and completed-
I took the time out to do it.
6-7-16 PRR (public records request)
Jon Paladini replied 6-21-16 and Sonny gave it to me today 6-24-16.
I requested documents of the city of Prescott regarding the YHF 2013.
They are currently gathering them as I requested.
There is a large volume of documents and may take weeks-
They will not be making a record of my request-
I learned today what I did WRONG in all my foias- you cannot ask questions —just ask specific documents so I really THANK Prescott Attorney Jon M Palidini for educating me but thank you wwtktt for even further wisdom—
Excellent and educational letter-
thank you Jon 🙂
Joy,
I’m still working on the request format you sent. Is that still something you need?
thank you muzzy- I forgot all about “that” FOIA—I have alot of foias out and you bringing it up—I forgot BLM’s 20 day one that ends by 7-16-16…yes, if you have anything for the BLM or local one I will send it,,,
thank you
**
** EX-GM HOTSHOTS HIRED TO BE CREW MEMBERS IN THE MOVIE?
Actor Josh Brolin still can’t seem to help himself… and he now keeps posting pictures from the ‘set’ of the in-progress “Granite Mountain” movie. He’s usually careful to not show anyone else’s ‘face’… but he put all that aside for one his recent social media ‘Instagram’ posts.
And this time… he even NAMES who he just shot a photo of.
It’s ex-GM Hotshot Pat McCarty… all ‘geared up’ in ‘Granite Mountain’ garb and filthy dirty… out on some fake fireline somewhere… staring at a ‘stumpfucker’ beetle that seems to be on Brolin’s hand.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BG_CYX2kTwE/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
McCarty seems geared up to be ‘on camera’ himself… since he has a brand new GM Helmet with the same logo being used for actor Josh Brolin’s helmet… and McCarty is also holding on of he ‘brand new’ Pulaskis bought for the movie ( no wear or dirt on the handle ) and also seems to be wearing one of he new black field packs also seen in one of Brolin’s other social media posts. The straps are ‘squeaky clean’ and haven’t even been ‘dirtied up’ manually by the props department.
In the background are some ‘tents’ and you can see other film personnel sitting in ‘Director-style’ chairs under a blue canopy.
McCarty is one of the only living ex-GM Hotshots ( along with Brandon Bunch and Brendan McDonough ) who knew MOST of the actual contingent of GM Hotshots that were killed in Yarnell.
If McCarty is there, and apparently geared up to be ‘filmable’… makes you wonder how many other ex-GM Hotshots have actually been hired as either consultants or extras.
From Brolin’s Instagram post…
———————————————————————————-
Comment from: joshbrolin
Firefighter Pat McCarty glaring at a stumpfucker: an unforgiving, heat seeking, blood letting pincher bug that can’t wait to try and ruin your firefighting day.
———————————————————————————-
WTKTT,
According to IMDb, Brandon Bunch is playing Zuppiger…
BTW, the film should donate their spiffy new tools to an IHC and use their old ones for use on the film. I doubt that the actors will put in enough 16hr days on their fake line to rough them up realistically..
Reply to Muzzy post on June 24, 2016 at 8:44 am
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> According to IMDb, Brandon Bunch is playing Zuppiger…
Wow. Okay. Yea… I see that now. Must have just appeared there at IMDB in the last 48 hours or so.
Garret Zuppiger was one of Brandon Bunch’s best friends.
Brandon Bunch was a ‘sawyer’ under Squad boss Clayton Whitted, and Wade Parker had been Bunch’s ‘swamper’.
Brandon Bunch left Granite Mountain in mid-season of 2013, not long before they Yarnell Hill Fire, in order to spend more time with his family. He had two children already and a third was on the way…. and it was time to be closer to home on a more regular basis.
He actually has BILLING on this ‘movie’ now… as a legitimate ‘cast member’.
I think that’s great. He’s had a hard row to hoe himself.
I hope he held out for at least SIX FIGURES.
By the way… Brandon Bunch was ( along with Brendan McDonough ) one of the primary ‘sources’ for author Kyle Dickman and that first ‘book’ about ‘Granite Mountain’ called “On the Burning Edge”.
Brandon Bunch is QUOTED extensively in Kyle Dickman’s book…
From the book itself…
—————————————————————————-
Bunch had been with Granite Mountain since 2010, the crew’s second year as hotshots.
Eric Marsh remained an enigma to him.
Bunch never felt he had a good read on his superintendent, but then, few people who worked with him did. One former colleague called him “an onion with layers he doesn’t let most people see”.
Marsh was cerebral but often lacking in the real-world experience to back up his ample theoretical knowledge. Whether it was mountain biking, riding horses, or firefighting, he knew all the right terms and the way to present himself. He also seemed to be searching for identity and affirmation.
The more seasons Bunch worked for Granite Mountain, the more he felt that under Marsh’s command, the hotshots were ALWAYS having to PROVE themselves.
—————————————————————————-
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> BTW, the film should donate their spiffy new tools to an IHC and
>> use their old ones for use on the film. I doubt that the actors will
>> put in enough 16hr days on their fake line to rough them up realistically..
I agree. It’s the ‘pack straps’ that get me. Obviously ‘brand shiny new’.
You would think they would have just kicked those ‘brand shiny new’ packs around in the dirt for a few hours by now.
Nope. Still looks like they just bought them that morning.
By the way… as of this very moment… the official IMDB page for the Kosinski-directed “Granite Mountain” film appears to have REPLACED the photo of actor Josh Brolin, in the banner title for the movie itself, with a picture of ex-GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch instead.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/
The ‘alternate text’ title for that photograph ( now of Brandon Bunch ) actually says that is (supposedly) the “Granite Mountain movie poster” itself.
Like I said above… I hope Brandon got himself an ‘agent’ and held out for at least SIX FIGURES.
They are also now showing yet ANOTHER addition to the cast…
Actor Michael Love Toliver.
Michael is an ‘African American’ actor who is featured in the big SEQUEL to the original ‘Independence Day’ movie ( Independence Day: Resurgence ), which opens in movie theatres across the county THIS WEEKEND.
There is no indication what ‘role’ Michael is playing in the “Granite Mountain” movie… but I don’t believe there was EVER an ‘African American’ crew member as part of the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’, at any time.
WTKTT,
It looks like the profile photo for Bunch was erroneously uploaded to the wrong position on the page. Maybe the production assistant responsible made a mistake, or maybe she’s just sweet on him and did it for fun.
You may be right.
I think what HAD been happening is that when a new ‘photo’ was added to the ‘Full Cast list’… that last ‘upload’ then became the new ‘top photo’ up on the banner itself.
But this time… Brandon is now the ‘top photo’ and the current ( forgive the pun ) ‘poster child’ for the movie itself… but his ‘thumbnail’ image is still MISSING from the full cast list below.
Strange.
So until ANOTHER ‘Cast Member’ is announced… and their ‘thumbnail’ is posted… it looks like former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch will be the ‘featured cast member’ on the official IMDB page.
Good for him.
Like I said… I hope Brandon isn’t being taken advantage of here… and that he negotiated himself a ‘worthwhile’ contract.
‘Worthwhile’… as in… at least 6 figures.
The ‘budget’ for this puppy is still currently clocking in at the 50-60 million dollar range… but will probably go higher.
I repeat… FIFTY to SIXTY MILLION dollars.
http://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/23552-hearing-for-juliann-ashcraft-before-the-psprs-local-board
Same guy who testified in court?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 24, 2016 at 7:39 pm
>> Joy A. Collura asked…
>>
>> Same guy who testified in court?
Yes. That is the same ‘firefighter’ Pat McCarty who used to be a GM Hotshot, testifying in open court during the Juliann Ashcraft benefits hearing(s).
Here is a direct link to that photo him on the ‘witness stand’…
http://www.prescottenews.com/images/stories/14may/patmccarty.jpg
That is the same ‘Pat McCarty’ who actor Josh Brolin just took a photo of on the ‘movie set’ for that “Granite Mountain” movie… which Brolin posted here…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BG_CYX2kTwE/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
Ex GM-Hotshot Pat McCarty is not showing up in the official ‘cast-list’… like ex-GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch is… but McCarty is definitely ‘there’ and ‘geared up’ and ‘filmable’ ( wearing some of the new equipment and a new hard-hat with the GM logo on it ).
I suppose, at this point, it would not turn out to be any big surprise that ALL of the ‘other members’ of the ‘fake GM Crew’ in the movie ( other than the featured actors playing certain crew members ) turn out to be ex-GM Hotshots.
It would only make sense for the movie company to surround themselves with people who were the most familiar with the real-life characters they have been HIRED to play in the movie.
By the way… when Pat McCarty testfied a the Juliann Ashcraft benefit hearings… he was there to testify on Juliann Aschcraft’s BEHALF and his testimony supported her claims that her husband Andrew was a FULL TIME employee of the City of Prescott.
Pat McCarty had one of the more famous ‘quotes’ for the proceedings.
City attorney Jon Paladini had his chance to cross-examine McCarty, and then tried to ‘trip him up’ and get him to admit that his new job on the structural side of firefighting with the City of Prescott was just as ‘arduous’ and just as ‘dangerous’ as being a Wildland Firefighter.
—————————————————————————-
Prescott City attorney Jon Paladini:
“Were you exposed to any less arduous work or danger while you were a wildland firefighter than you are as a structure firefighter?.”
Pat McCarty:
“I probably experienced more danger and ardor as a wildland firefighter, than I will in a 20 year career as a structure firefighter”.
—————————————————————————–
Paladini had no more questions, after that.
On June 24, 2016 at 8:14 pm, WTKTT said…
>> WTKTT said…
>>
>> I suppose, at this point, it would not turn out to be any big
>> surprise that ALL of the ‘other members’ of the ‘fake GM Crew’
>> in the movie ( other than the featured actors playing certain
>> crew members ) turn out to be ex-GM Hotshots.
>>
>> It would only make sense for the movie company to surround
>> themselves with people who were the most familiar with the
>> real-life characters they have been HIRED to play in the movie.
Followup… case in point… Philip Maldonado.
It would not surprise me in the least to learn that ex-GM Hotshot Philip Maldonado has also ‘hired on’ to be part of the ‘fake GM crew’ in this movie.
He was with GM for a long time… and he knew MOST of the men that perished on June 30, 2013.
Philip Maldonado, wwtktt— I don’t get that feeling when I hiked with him—
maybe be a background fill-in but I would see it if Donut ends up in the movie. I really would like the gmhs Alumnus to be in movie because in foias you have to be specific in your requests and I would like that roster for the investigation area-
Three years later or thirty years later I am going to understand 6-30-13 and research and research until I comprehend and NO MOVIE or book will touch the topics I desire-
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 24, 2016 at 9:43 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Philip Maldonado, wwtktt— I don’t get that feeling
>> when I hiked with him—
>> maybe be a background fill-in
Perhaps. I don’t know him, personally. You DID hike him out there to where his friends perished.
My thinking is that if it is KNOWN now that forem GM Hotshot Pat McCarty is there and ‘suited up’ and ‘on the set’ ( but not listed as a cast member ), and former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch is also there AND is now officially getting ‘billing’ as one of the actual ‘cast members’ ( playing his old best friend Garret Zuppiger )… then there’s no telling how many former GMHS are actually ‘there’ and being ’employed’ to do this thing.
If it’s a whole raft of them… then it still would not surprise me if Philip Maldonado is one of them.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> but I would see it if Donut ends up in the movie.
Maybe as a ‘secret cameo’ somewhere… but not as any kind of ‘recognizable’ face, I don’t think… and here is why.
They are paying a SHITLOAD of money to have this ‘Miles Teller’ guy PLAY Brendan McDonough. I don’t think they would then just try to put the REAL Brendan McDonough into the ‘fake GM crew’ like they are letting Brandon Bunch play his old friend Garret Zuppiger.
I think Miles Teller’s AGENT would have something to say about that, if they tried to actually insert Brendan into the ‘fake crew’… along with Miles Teller trying to PLAY the ‘lone survivor’.
It’s just a feeling… but they have to be careful things don’t get TOO ‘weird’ in that “Hey… did you know who that guy on the crew there REALLY is?” department. Too distracting.
It’s also now been confirmed that they ARE, in fact, using the ACTUAL GM Crew Carriers for the movie.
Prescott Fire Department has confirmed they were approached about this months ago… and they are ‘renting’ the ACTUAL GM vehicles to the movie company at $45 per day, per vehicle.
Actually… that’s CHEAP ( considering the movie budget is in the 50 to 60 million dollar range ).
You KNOW that Director Kosinski really WANTED those vehicles.
I think Prescott could have held out for a couple of thousand per day, per vehicle… and gotten it.
And that money could go straight to the families… OR… have been the $229,000 that APS just had to donate to get the damn Arizona State Memorial park finished.
Here is that ‘confirmation’ that the Kosinski movie is, in fact, using the actual GM vehicles…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: ‘Granite Mountain’ hotshots movie begins filming in New Mexico today
Published: June 13, 2016 1 a.m
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2016/jun/13/granite-mountain-movie-begins-filming-new-mexico-m/
From that article…
————————————————————-
A movie based on the Granite Mountain Hotshots is set to begin filming in New Mexico this week, and is expected to be released worldwide in September 2017.
A Friday, June 10, news release states that the feature film “Granite Mountain” (previously known as “No Exit”) will start production today, June 13. Filming will take place in Santa Fe, Pajarito, White Rock, Nambe Pueblo, Los Alamos, Las Vegas, and Pecos, New Mexico.
Movie representatives did not respond to questions on whether filming would also occur in Prescott or Yarnell, the community in which 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew died fighting the Yarnell Hill wildfire on June 30, 2013.
The production will use the actual vehicles that the Granite Mountain crew used in their work. Prescott Fire Chief Dennis Light said this past week that the movie has leased four City of Prescott vehicles – two Hotshot buggies, a superintendent vehicle, and a pick-up truck – used by the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
The vehicles were leased by the movie production for 90 to 120 days at $45 per vehicle per day, Light said.
————————————————————-
**
** LET THERE BE CHAINS
>> On June 23, 2016 at 6:24 am, Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Wwtktr…your questions can be answered at safety matters Facebook page video…
>>
>> On June 23, 2016 at 8:29 am, Muzzy said…
>>
>> The video shows a presentation detailing the items included in
>> the 200k + cost overrun. Includes observation deck roof, path to deployment
>> site, signage, including biographies of HSs, benches, etc.
Copy that. Yes… I ultimately caught that ( in that video ). Thank you ( both ).
That FOX10 full-video link DOES show the guy ( Project manager ‘Skip’ ) doing his ‘presentation’ to that lightly-attended and short-notice PUBLIC meeting.of the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Board’…
https://www.facebook.com/FOX10Phoenix/videos/1056141377767742/
Presenter’s name was ‘Skip’ ( Walter ‘Skip’ Varney ), of Arizona State Parks… and he was the ‘Project Manager’ for Arizona State Parks and the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board.
There is still no ‘detail’ breakdown supplied about what all these ‘Future Development’ items actually cost. It’s all just ‘lumped together’ on that PowerPoint screen into the $229,000 total.
Just for future reference… here is exactly what that ‘PowerPoint’ slide says…
———————————————————————————————
Future Development
– Trail to Deployment Site
Crew + trail building equipment to create
final 3/4 mile trail segment – 35-60 days.
American Conservation Experience
– Biography Plaques ( 19 )
Engraved 2′ x 2′ plaques ??
Installed into existing or provided rock.
Set in Stone, AZ – De
– Observation Deck
Steel structure, with perforated metal roof,
surface material.
Transport material to site / install
Arizona Correction Industries ( ACI )
– Master Road Sign ( Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park )
4′ by 8′ concrete, metal & stone sign on base.
Arizona Correction Industries ( ACI )
– Benches ( 12 )
Metal laser cut benches.
Transport / install at site.
Arizona Correction Industries ( ACI )
– Interpretive Signs ( 6 )
– Observation Deck Signs ( 2 )
– Trailhead Signs ( 2 )
– Deployment Site Sign ( 1 )
Fabrication / transport to site / install included.
Arizona Correctional Industries ( AC I )
Total…………………… $229,000
———————————————————————————————-
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Interesting that the markers are all shown in the diagram
>> as crosses, given that Eric Marsh was supposedly
>> Buddhist. I couldn’t tell from the photos if it is a cross
>> or some other symbol.
Yes… the actual spot where each firefighter died is marked with a metal ‘cross’, painted purple, regardless of actual religious affiliation ( or lack thereof ).
These were already in place before the legal settlement-mandated ‘Family Staff Ride’ took place back in the first week of April, 2016.
And YES… that one ‘sample biographical information plaque’ shown in the ‘presentation’ ALSO has a ‘christian cross’ engraved on the background.
The slide in the presentation at the meeting shows the sample plaque for deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Clayton Whitted. It has an ‘engraved’ photo of him and the writing says…
Clayton Thomas Whitted
Squad Leader, ??, FIRB, FALC, EMT
June 27, 1985 – June 30, 2013
“I Thank My God Every Time I Remember You”.
In the lower left corner is an ‘etched’ version of the Granite Mountain logo.
In the upper right ( background ) is an ‘etched’ version of a christian cross.
Clayton Whitted is just one ( of several… Parker, Deford, etc. ) of the Granite Mountain Hotshots who was also an official christian ‘youth minister’ ( at the ‘Heights’ Church, in Prescott ).
Whitted saw ‘Hotshoting’ as an actual ‘ministry’ and way to ‘bring Christ to those firefighters’.
From Whitted’s obituary published at Outside Online…
—————————————————————————–
Clayton Whitted, 28
Squad boss Clayton Whitted, a Prescott native, was a youth minister who saw firefighting as his way of serving God. He married his wife, Kristi, in February, 2011.
—————————————————————————–
From Whitted’s obituary published at AZCENTRAL…
—————————————————————————–
Bob Hoyt, a pastor at The Heights Church, said Whitted was above all a servant, to God and his fellow men Hoyt said few men in their early 20s would have quit a job to take care of their ailing mother, but that’s is what Whitted did seven years ago when his mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Whitted left the Prescott Hotshots and took a job at The Heights as a youth minister in order to be close to home all year. After his mom passed away, Hoyt said, Whitted joined Granite Mountain, so he could MINISTER to the men while continuing to fight wildfires.
——————————————————————————
From Whitted’s obituary published in the ‘New york Times’…
——————————————————————————
Clayton Whitted felt a SPIRITUAL CALLING to fight fires.
He grew up in Prescott, Ariz., and joined the Prescott Hotshots right out of high school.
Around 2007, he left the Hotshots for about a year and went to work as a pastor at Heights Church, hoping to spend more time with his family in Prescott while his mother was ailing.
In 2008, he decided to return to firefighting, this time with the Granite Mountain Hotshots. Bob Hoyt, a fellow pastor at Heights Church, said Mr. Whitted told him: “God just wants me to be a firefighter. I feel like I can be Christ to those firemen.”
——————————————————————————
From the Clayton Whitted WRONGFUL DEATH CLAIM letter submitted
by Prescott attorney Patrick McGroder…
——————————————————————————-
Clayton Whitted felt a strong pulling to teach others about God, but also wanted to serve the community. After his mother passed, Clayton joined Granite Mountain so that he could MINISTER to men WHILE fighting wildfires.
——————————————————————————-
From…
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130702yarnell-fire-clayton-whitted-obit.html
——————————————————————————-
According to Bob Hoyt, PASTOR of the Prescott ‘Heights’ Church… Clayton Whitted ministered full time to youth, overseeing Bible study groups at the church, Hoyt said. Clayton took a full time position with the Heights Church youth and became the junior high pastor. This was a wonderful fit for Clayton and he was able to use his gifts of ministry as he mentored HUNDREDS of young teens.
After his mom passed away, Hoyt said, Whitted joined Granite Mountain, so he could MINISTER to the men WHILE continuing to fight wildfires.
“He told me firefighting allowed him the perfect mix,” Hoyt said. “He could help the community AND minister to good men happy to listen. He was very excited.”
Though Clayton had re-entered the world of firefighting he continued to lead Bible studies and prayer groups.
He never failed to put God first.
Clayton’s work with the Granite Mountain Hotshots expanded, as did his responsibility when he became a SQUAD LEADER.
Clayton’s plans, though wonderful in and of themselves, tied directly into God’s plan and that is something Clayton knew well. Clayton’s desire was that EVERYONE he came into CONTACT WITH might experience the same love he knew, the love of God, through his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
—————————————————————————-
I think you get the picture ( regarding Whitted ).
Hotshoting wasn’t just a ‘job’… he treated it as some kind of ‘christian ministry’ ( as did Parker, Deford, etc. ).
So yea… it makes perfect sense that Whitted would have a ‘christian cross’ permanently engraved on his Arizona Public State Park ‘biographical plaque’…
But… it remains to be seen if this ‘christian cross’ engraved in the background will be a standard inclusion on ALL of these public state park ‘plaques’ for ALL of the Granite Mountain hotshots, or for just the ones whose families might have REQUESTED it.
Apparently, ALL 19 of these ‘plaques’ are going to be ‘installed’ NOT at the deployment site itself… but somewhere along the 2.85 mile hiking trail… to ( quote ) “existing rock or provided rock”.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> As to the ugliness, it seems that the basic dishonesty surrounding the 19
>> has found expression in this design. Sentimentality replaces spirituality,
>> clutter replaces clarity, ego replaces truth. Buddhist my ass.
I agree.
And the ‘chains’ between the ‘lobster traps’ ( gabions ) seem to be a fitting ‘symbolic’ touch as well, considering how the ‘truth’ has always been ( and CONTINUES to be ) one of the ‘victims’ in this tragedy.
The ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ has FINALLY stopped ignoring Arizona LAW and they have ( only recently ) FINALLY published the ‘minutes’ from their last meeting held way back on October 23 of the year 2015.
We can now see how the original design was forced ( by Amanda Marsh and Deborah Pfingston supposedly ‘representing’ ALL the Family members ) backwards from an ‘open’ design… to the one we see now… complete with CHAINS preventing access to the actual deployment site at this Arizona State PUBLIC park.
After ignoring Arizona Open Records LAWS for almost 8 months now… the PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ just recently got around to actually ‘publishing’ the ‘minutes’ of their last meeting ( prior to the one they just had accepting the $229,000 check from APS ) back on October 23, 2015.
At the meeting PRIOR to the October 23, 2015 one… PUBLIC Board member Amanda Marsh had asked the Board to reconsider the first proposed design for the deployment site and consider a re-design that would PREVENT any access to the deployment site itself.
NOTE: Amanda Marsh was appointed to one of the ‘Family Member representative’ positions on this PUBLIC Board, when it was created. The purpose of those positions on the Board was to represent ALL of the ‘Family Members’, and NOT just a small subset of Family members and/or any (singular) ‘personal’ wishes.
The Board decided, at that previous meeting, to ‘rework’ the design according to these ‘new wishes’ being expressed by ‘Family representative’ Amanda Marsh.
What we have NEVER been able to see ( since this PUBIC Board was violating Arizona Open Records LAWS and NOT publishing the ‘minutes’ of the next meeting )… was what the REWORK of the ‘design’ that Amanda Marsh requested ( supposedly on behalf of ALL Family members ) turned out to be.
Well… now that they have finally decided to obey the LAW and publish the minutes of that next October 23, 2015 meeting… we CAN see what was ‘decided’.
The ‘Design Sub-Committee’ took another pass at the design… and came back with the concept of SURROUNDING the actual deployment area with TALLER WALLS, but still allowing ‘entry’ to the area where the crosses were in-between the pony walls.
That ‘new concept’ was ‘presented’ at this October 23, 2015 meeting…
But that still wasn’t good enough for Amanda Marsh.
She wanted there to be BIG ROCKS and CHAINS in-between the ‘gabions’ to physically PREVENT ACCESS to the actual deployment area at this Arizona State PUBLIC park.
That turned into the ‘final compromise’… and Amanda Marsh got her way.
But at least… in these newly published ‘minutes’ of that October 23, 2015 meeting… no one was referring ( in writing ) to the area as “the gravesites” anymore… as was true in OTHER ‘minutes’ from other ‘meetings’ of this PUBLIC Board.
The Arizona State Parks page dedicated to this temporary ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
Direct link to the only-recently released ‘minutes’ of their last meeting, back on October 23 of 2015…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/minutes/2016/Yarnell-Minutes-10-23-15.pdf
From the finally-released-minutes of that meeting…
——————————————————————————————
Meeting Action Item 2…
2. Consider approval of the fatality site design as presented by
Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board Design Sub-Committee.
Mr. ( Jeff ) Whitney introduced Bill Gauslow who would talk about the ( revised ) recommendations on the elements of the design at the deployment site.
Mr. Gauslow spoke about the Design.
Mr. Gauslow said the plan included placing a wide marble cross for each firefighter with their name on it
There would be a pony wall AROUND the crosses which would include 19 entries and 19 pony walls surrounding the crosses. The wall would be made of gabion and the rocks are riprap rocks which means they are jagged, not round. Then a foundation would be put in.
There will also be four benches facing in each direction.
The gabion wall is a separation wall so the PUBLIC would SEE the names of the firefighters but would NOT be able to get ANY CLOSER.
The separation walls could be different heights to symbolize that the firefighters were all the same but they are all different.
There would also be a ribbon at each gabion wall and each family could decorate the gabions if they so choose.
Supervisor Simmons asked if the family is happy with the ( revised ) design.
Ms. ( Amanda ) Marsh said THEY would PREFER a CHAIN there to separate as well.
There was some discussion on the design and if the family would be happy with it.
Supervisor Simmons motioned that the CHAIN be ADDED to the design for future evaluation and this design be accepted conceptually by the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board.
The motion PASSED.
——————————————————————————————
So now we finally see the END of the ‘compromising’ over the design that took place.
There WOULD actually be a way for the PUBLIC to get NEAR the actual deployment site… but the ‘pony walls’ would now encompass the ACTUAL deployment site… and it would be surrounded by WALLS and CHAINS so that no member of the PUBLIC could actually get near the individual crosses themselves.
And they went with that final compromise ( with the ‘crosses’ eventually changing to METAL and painted PURPLE instead of the original ‘WHITE MARBLE’ idea ).
“Let there be CHAINS”.
And the more I look at these photos of what things ACTUALLY now ‘look like’ out there at that deployment site… I can’t help thinking that they have simply ‘missed the mark’ with the design approach.
I don’t know what the ‘concept’ was… but between the BLACK METAL boxes and the CHAINS… the RESULTING ‘look and feel’ just looks ‘institutional’ and ‘PRISON LIKE’.
It looks like those 19 markers on the ground are now ‘trapped’ in their own sort of prison-like environment… and it stands in stark contrast to the open landscape and the terrain.
It’s just UGLY.
But Amanda ( and whatever other family members she actually WAS ‘representing’ ) have gotten their way in this.
I hope they are ‘happy’ with that ‘prison-like’ look-and-feel.
WTKTT,
Re: After ignoring Arizona Open Records LAWS for almost 8 months now… the PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ just recently got around to actually ‘publishing’ the ‘minutes’ of their last meeting ( prior to the one they just had accepting the $229,000 check from APS ) back on October 23, 2015.
In fairness, the minutes are not official until they are approved at the next meeting.
Doesn’t matter. Arizona LAW states that the minutes for ANY public board or commission meeting that was open to the public MUST be published, even if only in ‘draft’ form, within 72 hours following the meeting.The LAW specifically states that a board must NOT wait until their next meeting to publish the minutes for the most recent one.
Followup…
From the Arizona Attorney General’s own ‘Handbook’ regarding Arizona’s ‘Open Meeting’ laws… and how any PUBLIC Arizona ‘agency’ or ‘Board’ is required to COMPLY with these LAWS…
https://www.azag.gov/sites/default/files/sites/all/docs/agency-handbook/ch07.pdf
———————————————————————–
7.8 Minutes. Minutes must be taken of all public meetings and executive sessions.
7.8.1 Form of and Access to the Minutes. Minutes may be taken in writing or may be recorded by a tape recorder or video tape recorder. A.R.S. § 38-431.01(B); see Forms 7.10, 7.11. The minutes or a recording of a public meeting must be available for public inspection within three working days after the meeting. A.R.S. § 38-431.01(D).
Public bodies concerned about distributing minutes BEFORE they have been officially APPROVED at a subsequent meeting should mark the minutes “draft” or “unapproved” and make them available within three working days of the meeting.
In no event should minutes be withheld from the public pending approval.
————————————————————————–
“In NO EVENT should minutes be WITHHELD from the public PENDING APPROVAL.”
NOTE: When the PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ was first convened… and when they had their first few meetings… they WERE putting a watermark that said ‘DRAFT’ on their meeting minutes and publishing them immediately after the meetings, BEFORE the minutes had been ‘approved’, just as the Arizona Attorney General says they are supposed to.
It was only a little later, after the first few meetings and actual ‘decisions’ began to be made that they started withholding copies of the minutes of meetings… not only in DRAFT form… but even AFTER they had been ‘approved’ at subsequent meetings.
It seemed to depend on what was actually ‘discussed’ at any particular meeting… and whether or not they really wanted the PUBLIC to be able to ‘see’ what was actually discussed and/or DECIDED at that PUBLIC meeting of that PUBLIC board.
That’s not how it works.
WTKTT,
Re: There would also be a ribbon at each gabion wall and each family could decorate the gabions if they so choose.
O goody, the area will be littered with mildewed teddy bears, deflated Mylar balloons, and crispy floral arrangements. It sounds more and more like one of those roadside shrines in remembrance of a car full of teens who ran off the road without seat belts.
In one of the earlier meeting minutes, there was mention of a 1.25x life size bronze statue of a hotshot lookout at the observation platform. Fitting, I suppose, to have an immobile guardian protecting spirits who will never benefit.
It would be funny if it wasn’t so unbearably sad…
Muzzy… I’m not sure what you do for a living… but you probably can/should be a ‘writer’. You just ‘imagineered’ ( and described ) perfectly what is GOING to happen out there and what that ‘scene’ is going to look like. If what happened at the Granite Mountain Station. 7 fence is even just a small indication of what COULD happen… there is going to constantly be all kinds of chachki all over the place out there.
It is NOT a cemetery… but it IS a place of ‘rememberance’… and people are people. They always have these urges to ‘bring stuff’ to a place like that… and LEAVE it there.
If the people on this public site planning board did not realize that is what is GOING to happen… then that is just more proof that they didn’t fully grasp the realities of the situation or the parameters of the undertaking g they launched.
As for the 1.25 scale larger-than-lifesize bronze statues that were in the original design concept… those now all seem to be off-the-table.
So either someone finally clued someone in about how much THAT sort of thing actually COSTS… or they realized that even beyond the real chances of THEFT… that the statues would simply be inappropriate.
I could never believe they really were seriously considering putting in a bigger-than-life statue of a Wildland Firefighter ‘Lookout’ up there on the ridge.
I can think of NOTHING more ‘inappropriate’ than adding to the site ( post death ) an image of the very thing those men needed ( in life ) that day… but did NOT have.
A Lookout ( to keep them alive ).
Re: I can think of NOTHING more ‘inappropriate’ than adding to the site ( post death ) an image of the very thing those men needed ( in life ) that day… but did NOT have.
My thought exactly, notwithstanding Holly Niell’s torqued arguement to the contrary.
If I were in charge of the park, I would request easements to erect two columns or obelisks visible from the observation platform, marking the fireline at about 1550 and another one marking its position at the time they were presumed to arrive at the saddle. I would have an interpretive panel discussing the relationship, in general terms, between fuel characteristics, weather, topology and fire behavior. By the time a visitor left, the lunacy of what happened next would be clear. By the time the visitor arrived at the deployment site and looked back, he or she might experience a bit of what they did that day. Maybe it’s too soon to be that real?
torqued = tortured
I think you may have gotten it right the first time.
“Torque = A twisting force applied to an object.”
Hmm, not me, my smart ass autocorrect. Whipper snapper!
Reply to Muzzy post on June 24, 2016 at 8:42 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Maybe it’s too soon to be that real?
Not in my book. I see NO REASON why a visit to this ‘park’ should NOT be both a ‘humbling’ AND an ‘educational’ experience.
People should LEAVE ‘the park’ with an UNDERSTANDING of what happened… and not just more thoughts spinning in their heads along the lines of “Nice memorial… but MAN… how the FUCK did they get trapped down there that day? Shouldn’t they have KNOWN BETTER than to let that happen to them?”
Along the ‘educational’ lines… I think there should be a KIOSK there at the observation deck with an AUDIO speaker.
You press a button… and it plays the enhanced audio versions of the radio communications at both 4:13 PM and 4:27 PM.
And there are little notepads and some pencils in a basket with a sign over it that says…
“If anyone recognizes any of the voices heard in these radio captures… please write their names down and insert the paper into the waterproof capture slot above. Thank you.”
Well…I am sitting here doing research for the book I MAY finish, “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters” and a scroll came across the bottom of the TV which is on in the background. It said a Texas man has been charged with manslaughter for forgetting and leaving his infant daughter to die in a hot car.
This story is all too common and the usual end result is the parent, almost always a father, charged with manslaughter. There was even a case a few years ago in the Phoenix area where a police office who was a canine handler who left his dog in his patrol car and the dog died and the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office charged him with felony animal abuse.
These fathers who leave their infants in these cars to die love their children, and with a bizarre exception that may exist, all of these acts are accidents in terms that the father did not intend to kill his child…but he did.
And so…I want to state once again for the record that there is no doubt in my mind that had Eric Marsh survived the Yarnell Hill Fire…he should have been charged with at least 17 counts of manslaughter.
I find it incredibly offensive that the Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters even exists. I also find it incredibly offensive that a movie in now being made that is going to portray Eric Marsh as a hero because of the Yarnell Hill Fire. I just don’t think they are going to have their leading actor end up being portrayed as killing the crew he loved in that movie.
I know I have said this many times before, but I intend to keep saying it.
And once again, if anybody does not agree with me…I would love to hear from you and for you to tell me why I am wrong based on the manslaughter statute and case law.
The only question, really, is whether or not the circumstances would have ALSO warranted the addition of the standard ‘depraved indifference’ charges as well.
‘Depraved indifference’ is when you absolutely SHOULD have known that what you were doing ( or asking some else to do ) could cause injury or death… but you go ahead and do it anyway.
Also… an interesting ( relevant ) comment has appeared on this ‘Holly Neil’ person’s ‘Wildland Firefighting Safety Matters’ PUBLIC Facebook page.
It’s from a fellow named Eric Metzger, who is a WFF and Forestry Officer for the Oregon Department of Forestry, Pineville, Oregon.
——————————————————————————————-
Comment from: Eric Metzger
I’ve been really frustrated with the lack of lessons learned from Yarnell since the day the “report” came out.
I think John N Maclean is probably our only hope, honestly, and I know he’s doing the best he can.
When the article you reference in the original post came out and I posted it, a couple of friends with WAY more relevant experience than I have (an IHC Supe and a longtime IHC crew member) said what I wasn’t willing to say about the only conclusion we have been left to make with the information we have.
That conclusion is terrible, but it’s the only one supported by the fact that gag orders and information suppression are what we have to go on.
It’s so terrible that it makes me uncomfortable to say it.
EGO killed GM.
I sincerely hope that’s not the case, but we have no evidence to the contrary.
————————————————————————————————
Well…that is what I have been saying except I take it to another level by using the word hubris as in, “Hubris is the number one killer of hotshots.”
But of course we all know it is far more complicated than that…so back to the books!
Not just hotshots Gary… All WLFF types
You’re right. It’s just that I focus on hotshots because that is all I was and I don’t really know anything about what makes up the bulk of WF which are engine and helitack folks.
Just look at the Twisp Fire.
No hotshots, but definitely HUBRIS..
I think its rampant in the whole WLFF world right now… I watched some news clips from California the other day and see the same “hero” mentality again and again…
People in flimsy Nomex trying to put out 50 foot tall flames in manzanita and other useless brush crap with a 1″ hose line, near a house, with the fire burning on 3 sides of them and only 1 escape route out of the subdivision…
an unrecognizable number/text came in with label FIRE PHOTOS and I placed them on link:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8RVyGdxbs15akdwZG1yam9fejQ&usp=sharing
so I googled number and it comes out of near Canada…strange…are people travelling thru and googling tenderfoot fire than sending me photos because I had my number posted…no because I do not get photos on my 480#…it was on my 928 number…well, thank you to the anonymous pal….
Interesting photos, Joy… thank you.
A few of them are now even BETTER pictures of the McKiddie garage + workshop in the process of burning to the ground because of that ‘manual burn’ that was set there in that totally uncleared and thick-brush-filled lot just to the south of the McKiddie residence.
THESE photos are a WIDER view of the scene that was happening there at the McKiddie residence, and they were taken just moments after Peeples Valley Fire Department Engine 54 hauled-ass backwards down the McKiddie driveway… with firefighters also seen barely escaping the flames and running down the driveway.
In this photos… that is still Peeples Valley Fire Department Engine 54 seen there at the end of the McKiddie driveway on the very left side of the photos.
The McKiddie residence itself is also there on the left side of the photos, with all those ‘tall trees’ lining the driveway. Their garage + workshop is now TOTALLY engulfed in flames and burning to the ground.
This WIDE shot shows an even better view now of what happened in that thick-brush-filled lot just to the south of them.
It really does look like someone just waltzed into the middle of that heavy brush and ‘lit it up’, thinking that the wind was somehow blowing due EAST and directly UP the slope of ‘Y’ mountain. It was not. The wind was actually blowing to the NORTH / NORTHEAST and ( as Denise Roggio herself described )… the moment they torched that thick-brush-filled lot the fire ‘took off with the wind’ and went straight for the McKiddie property.
The McKiddies really are very lucky they still even have a place to live… while they now work with their insurance company to see if they will even PAY for destruction that was NOT caused by any natural event… but by the firefighters themselves.
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2016/jun/22/granite-mountain-hotshots-memorial-state-park-proj/
wwtktt- did you note that in article
“The park is slated to open on Nov. 30.” not next week-
The ‘Granite Mountain Memorial State Park’ was SUPPOSED to ‘open’ and be ‘dedicated’ on June 30, 2016. That is what was ‘announced’ at the last known public meeting of this mysterious ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ ( which evaporates at the end of this year ).
Now we hear there is a $229,000 ‘cost overrun’… and APS had to come up with that ‘donation’ in order for the ‘memorial’ to even be completed.
And ( of course ) absolutely no DETAIL about WHAT is causing or has even caused there to be a $229,000 ‘cost overrun’… over and above the $500,000 of taxpayer dollars originally allocated by the Arizona State Legislature.
There is still also no word WHERE the $789,000 came from to build the parking lot at the head of that stupid trail they are building… because NO property owners in Yarnell gave one hoot-n-crap about this ‘memorial’ and would grant ANY ‘right of way’ to that land through Yarnell or Glen Ilah.
Maybe this ‘additional $229,000’ is part of just the predicted ‘cost overruns’ for that stupid parking lot.. which Memorial Board member Karn Fann’s BROTHER got the contract to build.
There is still an official ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride’ scheduled to also take place on June 30, 2016. This is, supposedly, going to be the official ‘release’ version of the ‘Staff Ride’… and the end of the ‘Beta / Charlie / etc.’ test rides.
In other words.. 8 days from now… they are supposed to be officially DONE with the ‘Staff Ride’ and it was going to have its ‘first official run’ there on the same day that the Memorial Park was to be ‘dedicated’ and ‘open to the public’.
There is still no word on WHO is actually INVITED to this first official ( finished ) ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’.
According to documents John Dougherty obtained about the ‘Staff Ride’… June 30 is the LAST DAY that even Lee and DJ Helm will tolerate any more use of their property in conjunction with these ‘Staff Rides’.
So whether the Memorial Park is going to open on June 30 or not… that’s the last day they can use the Helms’ place as any kind of parking area or staging area for these ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Rides’.
By the way… if they just got an additional $229,000 in order to pay for ( UNKNOWN? ) expenses and get the damn thing done… I hope they set aside a little bit to FIX the damn SIGN that has now been unveiled on the side of Highway 89 down there by that $789,000 parking lot.
The sign that was unveiled didn’t even have enough room on it to spell out “Granite Mountain”.
It only says “Granite Mtn.”.
Somehow the morons had enough space for FOUR of the LETTERS in the word ‘Mountain”, but couldn’t even add a few inches for the OTHER FOUR letters so they could spell out the actual word ‘Mountain’ on the sign itself.
Unbelievable.
According to Arizona Law… this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Board’ now has 72 hours to post the ‘minutes’ from their last PUBLIC meeting. We will see if they decide to obey the law this time.
If they do ( obey the law )… then despite the bullshit incomplete reporting from the Prescott Daily Courier… we should ( as taxpayers ) THEN be able to see WHY this PUBLIC PARK needed another $229,000 to just finish whatever it is they are doing.
Wwtktr…your questions can be answered at safety matters Facebook page video…
http://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/arizona-news/164550812-story
all over th enews to this past hour-
https://www.facebook.com/SafetyMattersWildlandFirefighterForum/
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 22, 2016 at 5:55 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> http://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/arizona-news/164550812-story
>>
>> all over the news to this past hour-
Again… absolutely NOTHING in this ( supposed ) ‘news’ report about WHY there is a $229,000 cost overrun, or WHY the whole project is missing it’s planned June 30, 2016 ‘dedication’ by a country mile… and won’t ‘open’ until ( maybe ) November 30, 2016.
All we see in this report is more footage of Deboarh Pfingston crying and Amanda Marsh repeating her claim that the part of the park where the deployment site is located is ‘sacred ground’.
At least she’s not using the term ‘gravesites’ anymore.
At the +2 minute mark in this video report… there actually IS some ‘footage’ from out at the deployment site itself… and a lot of work HAS been done.
But it bears no resemblance to the original design as seen in Powerpoint And from other ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Board Meetings”.
I can’t believe how UGLY it actually is.
It’s just what appears to be 19 metal ‘boxes’ with ROCKS just spaced in a circle around the same PURPLE metal crosses as seen in the Staff Ride photos.
That part ( even as ugly as it is ) also appears to be FINISHED…. so it remains a complete mystery what the additional $229,000 is really FOR… and what is really preventing the park from opening as scheduled on June 30, 2016.
The 19 ‘things’ that surround the actual deployment site, with boulders in-between them to prevent access, pretty much just look like Overton metal Lobster traps, turned on their end and filled with rocks.
Pretty much like this…
http://cdn.overtons.com/product/441/441888_L1.jpg?interpolation=lanczos-none&downsize=1200px:*
But they are, in fact, ‘already installed’ so I guess that’s what they are going with… and all the labor to build these things was donated…. so still not seeing where the $229,000 cost overrun is coming from.
WTKTT,
The video shows a presentation detailing the items included in the 200k + cost overrun. Includes observation deck roof, path to deployment site, signage, including biographies of HSs, benches, etc.
The “lobster cages” are called gabions, and they’re all the rage in building security walls and garden hardscaping, especially in areas that have a lot of rocks anyway. Relatively light metal cages are brought in and filled with rocks or broken concrete after they’re placed. The technique was used by the Romans for creating earthwork defenses in warfare. After the battle, they could be dismantled and the frames packed up and moved to the next position.
Interesting that the markers are all shown in the diagram as crosses, given that Eric Marsh was supposedly Buddhist. I couldn’t tell from the photos if it is a cross or some other symbol.
As to the ugliness, it seems that the basic dishonesty surrounding the 19 has found expression in this design. Sentimentality replaces spirituality, clutter replaces clarity, ego replaces truth. Buddhist my ass.
.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8RVyGdxbs15akdwZG1yam9fejQ&usp=sharing#grid
if you are on this site and you are the man in photo-
I cannot find your paper yet where I put your information and I keep thinking tokola—
squad boss who knew Clayton Whitted and taught you the saw-
please reach me-
(480) 280-5813
**
** ‘SKY 12’ HELICOPTER FOOTAGE OF THE YARNELL ‘TENDERFOOT’ FIRE
**
** FROM 5:57 PM TO 6:08 PM, JUNE 8, 2016
Just in case anyone was having trouble viewing that 1 hour and 15 minute continuous ‘Sky 12’ video footage of the Yarnell ‘Tenderfoot’ fire referred to down below… here is an ‘extraction’ from that video showing the 11 contiguous minutes from 5:57 PM to 6:08 PM, June 8, 2016.
The video starts at 5:57 PM just as ‘Sky 12’ was approaching Yarnell, flying in from the EAST.
It shows exactly what was happening there on the EAST side of the mountain, as well as all the smoke that was coming from the already-started massive manual ignitions on the WEST side of the ridge, near Crest Way.
‘Sky 12’ begins ZOOMING IN on what appears to be the actual ‘origin fire’ there on the EAST side, which wasn’t doing much at all and, with all the ‘Air Support’ and ‘Heavy Iron’ that was arriving in the Yarnell area…. ( VLAT, Twin-Engine tankers and SEATS ) probably could have been dealt with very easily with a ‘direct attack’ from ‘Air Support’.
What is REALLY curious, though, is that as ‘Sky 12′ then begins to cross over the ridgeline and ’round the bend’ towards Yarnell… it ZOOMS down on what appears to be a definite series of manual burns started on the EAST side of the ridge itself.
So were they really just ‘igniting’ EVERYTHING… on BOTH sides of the ridgeline… and totally CREATING that fire that would then take 4+ MILLION dollars to suppress?
When ‘Sky 12’ rounds the bend and is now ‘over Yarnell’… it starts ZOOMING IN on everything that was taking place there on the ground.
They had already burned the McKiddie garage to the ground there at the south end of Crest Way… and the manual burns were now RACING up the WEST side of ‘Y’ mountain.
You can see firefighters all over the place, with drip torches, walking along all the EXISTING roads and torching everything in sight.
‘Sky 12’ pans up and down ‘Crest Way’ and shows they were continuing to ‘light things up’ even beyond both the north and south ends of Crest Way.
Near the end of this 11 minute video… ‘Sky 12’ follows a Twin-Engine Air Tanker in case it was going to ‘drop’. It does not… but as it follows this plane we then get another good view of the EAST side of the ridge… and the actual ‘origin fire’ there way off to the EAST.
The video ends with us watching 1 firefighter ‘lighting up’ an area to the south of Crest Way and near the new Dollar General Store… while a dozen FFs stand there watching him.
YouTube Video Title: Sky12 060816 0557PM to 0608PM
YouTube Video Description:
‘Sky 12’ News Helicopter footage of the Yarnell ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ taken June 8, 2016, from 5:57 PM to 6:08 PM ( continuous footage, no break
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTuCOTO3QnE
More bullshit about the Yarnell ‘Tenderfoot fire’.
This time published in the ‘Wickenburg Sun’.
The Wickenburg Sun
Article Title: Yarnell area suffers another wildfire
Published: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 – 3:05 PM – By Kevin Cloe ( Publisher )
http://www.wickenburgsun.com/
From that article…
————————————————————–
Wickenburg Fire Chief Ed Temerowski described it as ‘good firefighting’.
He and his crew of five took two engines to Yarnell’s Tenderfoot
Fire for two days last week, and they were among the first group
of about 250 firefighters on the scene of what eventually became
a 4,080-acre ( as of Monday ) brush fire.
“The initial attack was the key to keeping the fire off structures,”
Chief Temerowski said Friday.
The Tenderfoot Fire started at about 3 p.m. Wednesday, June 8
on the EAST side of ‘Y’ Mountain, but crawled over the ridge and
threatened homes and businesses late Wednesday afternoon and
early evening.
However, the firefighters from several agencies – including the nearby
Wickenburg and Congress fire departments and the local Bureau of Land
Management Weaver Mountain crew – were able to protect those structures
by utilizing pre-cleared firebreaks and dirt roads. Three unoccupied
“outbuildings” were reported burned.
The flames had crept close to structures such as the American Legion Hall
and the new Dollar General store on the east side of Highway 89, which was
closed for more than two days between the top of Yarnell Hill to the south
and Peeples Valley to the north.
———————————————————————-
NOTE: The ONLY ‘fire’ that ever got anywhere NEAR the ‘American Legion Hall’,
or the ‘Dollar General’ ( or ANY structure on the EAST side of Yarnell ) was fire
that had been MANUALLY set there on the EAST side of Yarnell.
And again… more reference to “pre-cleared firebreaks” which, everyone keeps
mentioning, but NO ONE seems to be able to say WHERE they were or WHAT they
are actually referring to.
On a sunnier note, with the Tenderfoot fire occurring to the East of Yarnell, burning hundreds of acres of dry, crappy mequite, chaparral, manzanita, etc……..
IT IS A HELL OF A GOOD NEW FUEL BREAK (FUEL MANAGEMENT PROJECT) THAT WILL PROVIDE A BUFFER TO THE COMMUNITY FOR MANY YEARS…
Was there not something way back in Chapter 1 of the Yarnell fire, that the residents wanted fuels management and prescribed burning to deal with the dangerous fuel type which had not burned in 40 years??
I think PeeWee Herman should play Chief Willis in the new movie……
Umm…Rocksteady,
I hope you’re joking!
BTW, re:
I think PeeWee Herman should play Chief Willis in the new movie……
I would say that PeeWee is too sincere and self effacing to capture the combination of incompetent pomposity and contrived earnestness that is required. I hope that part, at least, is portrayed realistically!
No, I am not joking. The Tenderfoot fire is now void of most of its vegetation, so will now be “fire wise” for a couple decades..
Well, yes, but to all the hybrid FFs and others lurking on this blog, this kind of “operation” is best done when it is less likely to run away, cut power and communications, prompt evacuations, and cost 4M.
I suppose you think that goes without saying, but I say that the videos tell a different story…
amen Muzzy but there is plenty of ridges Rocksteady that they can get another $4 million if that money runs out…
that is what locals say to me…plenty more areas for them to practice on being hybrids-
I agree, but like I said, this is the “silver lining” of the Tenderfoot Fire.
Several sheds burned, a comms tower got damaged, …….
Compare that to the devastation caused by the Yarnell Hill Fire (how many homes, 19 WLFF dead)…
Yes, doing it as a fuels management project or a prescribed burn in different planned conditions would have been much better, however, the resulting “black area” of the Tenderfoot does have its benefits..
I am only saying the end resulted burn area is a benefit…. In no way am I implying that the hybrids did a great job of lighting off from the back of properties… The overall fire does provide a good fuel break though..
I agree… but you have to also consider that when push-came-to-shove… and they ( all FFs and WFFS involved ) decided they didn’t give one hoot-n-crap about lighting up EVERYTHING there along that 1 mile of Crest Way at the very backs of those property lines… and they didn’t lift a finger to ask anyone’s PERMISSION to do it… then a few days with a bulldozer COULD have just produced that ‘100 foot wide’ fire break that everyone now seems to be swallowing the kool-aid and believing actually already WAS done there.
It’s actually a shame that what, all-in-all, turned out to be a successful defensive operation is tainted with all these LIES about what really happened that day.
It’s almost like these people cannot help themselves… and even when no one dies or is injured… they still feel the need to insert LIES into the situation.
It’s actually a very serious issue now as to whether or not Chief Ben Palm WAS receiving money ( a LOT of money? ) to create ‘fire breaks’ that never actually happened…. and whether or not Chief Ben Palm ( and others? ) might now have new swimming pools.
The people of the that Fire District ( and ALL taxpayers ) now deserve to KNOW exactly what the ‘story’ was there… and whether that is the same ‘story’ going on many, many other places.
As in… lots of MONEY showing up… and ‘evaporating’… and the work that was SUPPOSED to be done never being done at all.
wwtktt said:bulldozer COULD have just produced that ‘100 foot wide’ fire break that everyone now seems to be swallowing the kool-aid and believing actually already WAS done there.
MANY eyewitness account said more than one dozer was stationed in the area…have foia to confirm from which area but if I don’t fix foia than it means zip and goes nowhere- I have less than 20 days to fix the errors and I am ill…trying to assist Sonny and deal with bs pain
wwtktt said:
It’s actually a very serious issue now as to whether or not Chief Ben Palm WAS receiving money ( a LOT of money? ) to create ‘fire breaks’ that never actually happened…. and whether or not Chief Ben Palm ( and others? ) might now have new swimming pools.
The people of the that Fire District ( and ALL taxpayers ) now deserve to KNOW exactly what the ‘story’ was there… and whether that is the same ‘story’ going on many, many other places.
As in… lots of MONEY showing up… and ‘evaporating’… and the work that was SUPPOSED to be done never being done at all.
MY REPLY: if anyone can look at my rambled FOIAS and format it proper I have no problem making sure the foias are completed but apparently what I rambled MUST BE fixed or it ends there in less than 20 days-
Joy,
In terms of your FOIA, is that something you can paste into a comment and we can deal with it here?
Joy A. Collura says
JUNE 22, 2016 AT 5:25 PM
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
thank you Muzzy-
HERE IS WHAT FORESTRY WROTE WHEN I EMAILED DELORES GARCIA A “CC” TO WHAT I EMAILED INITIALLY TO CHIEF BEN PALM/YFD BUT GROUPED OTHERS TO THAT SAME EMAIL TO GAIN A FOIA FORM AND THE REPLY FROM FORESTRY ON BELOW LINK:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8RVyGdxbs15akdwZG1yam9fejQ&usp=sharing
I did earlier copy/paste what I sent them ( way down in the weeds here) but let me do it again and I do agree it needs ALOT OF help…Gary would said its Yoda writing them but I am not at all focused— I cannot explain the pain I am in…IT STINKS—
here is the copy/paste:
IF YOU ARE GETTING THIS EMAIL- IT MEANS I WANT TO KNOW YOUR POSITION AND LOCATIONS OF YOUR COMPLETE STAFF MEMBERS THAT WERE INVOLVED WITH BOTH FIRES IN YARNELL— 6-28-13 YARNELL FIRE WEEK AND THIS PAST ONE TENDERFOOT FIRE 6-8-16 TO PRESENT.
FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT REQUESTING FORM TO OBTAIN INFORMATION FROM YOUR ORGANIZATION ON THE TENDERFOOT FIRE AND YARNELL HILL FIRE ON THE WEAVERS-
Do you know if all these guys are red carded on 6-8-16 that was in position on the Yarnell LLC/Maughan Ranch/Paula Sweatts properties/Yarnell Mining/Coastal Communications/ Crown Atlantic/State Land/BLM? How was Brandie McKiddie notified about the loss of her buildings (in person/by mail/by call?) Were the folks fighting the fire under the command of their own department at the time, or were they under one local fire chief or a DIVS/OPS from the BLM team? and at what exact time did local dept give it to BLM/Forestry? would you call your plan Structure protection within the City limits? Burnout? or backfiring operations but in media Chief Ben Palm not educated not enough to comprehend the proper term is not back burn at all so what is the proper fire terminology you would place to actions done on 6-8-16 initial attack and for the next 12 hours when I stopped watching it the first day 2:43am? I need the public records of number one how many incoming calls your dept received on tenderfoot fire and time frames of the first 33 calls and areas of those incoming calls. Did any of those incoming calls have reported fire in Stanton area or anywhere on Yarnell Y side of Antelope Peak in the very early calls or just smoke seen? Any 911 calls/Fire Dept calls for quads seen? (I know the answer is YES just trying to find which organization got that call) I also was told by squad boss hotshot about the volunteer dept some important details. I also want to ask the local fire dept before the BLM took over how come after the sensitivity of the last fire you did not make a decent dozer break between the legion and dollar general store and behind certain homes? or create hand lines? Why did you opt to burn so near to structures? When was the slurry drops ordered and by whom and how much was officially dropped? Has any of you been educated by a chemical engineer/science expert yet of the current use of slurry drops so near to structures/humans and the long term health affect yet? and the current deaths in Yarnell from last fire by placing a map of WHERE drops were made than layer it over with the deaths- have you seen it yet? List of names who were the volunteers who did this back burn action? who was the assigned local YFD dispatcher that took the calls- people said Denise said she was in the news as saying she was dispatcher taking calls- is that facts? was there others? I would like to clarify “rumors” to facts and that was one and another is what time did Eric Marsh’s long time best friend Alan Sinclair become officially in charge of the tenderfoot fire and then released you/your dept- What is the originated gps coordinates of the tenderfoot fire because map I got from team 3 is inaccurate to eyewitness accounts and not that close to town and down by the old cattle guards between town and Stanton- I know as the desert walker on 20c you go a ways out legally to cover that area (*00-20-0492 s13-t10n-r05w meets your non-covered area s18-t10n-r04w- who made the decision to take newly trained wildland trained folks and let BLM Federal take control? when did the communications tower start burning? Be careful on answering that for I witnessed it with a Yavapai county employee but I want confirmation when you noticed it on fire and how do you feel that area started on fire? Again be careful on your assessment but want confirmation of what we eyewitnessed- I saw you well covered happy way and crest way/table top way but after interviews can you confirm who was stationed at allen/young/white way? Has the fire reached Whitehead over at Walnut Grove? Has YFD or any organizations involved with fighting fire interviewed Stanton area folks? Can you tell me is this now another piece of the great Arizona that you all plan to do your restrictions to hike like you did on last Fire in which I have hiked for decades on/off but direct for almost 14 years now- just saying; gotta know- will need to add that map to my backpack next to Paxon and Payne and State Land’s for the Weavers- Was the Johnson’s mine to Devil Nest mine affected by this fire? Were any of the old stage rd residents warned of fire by your dept? what was your official time you started your burns? What was the initial plan attack the YFD took and did any other local fire depts assist? That’s my preliminary questions. I have been interviewing people from both sides of the Antelope Peak and I have a question- has your dept. yet interviewed anyone? I watched direct that fire from when Stephanie (928) 427-6447 called me as I was watching THE WALK (twin towers) Wed. June 8 I had a miss call 3:41 and 3:49pm and I turned head and saw it and called her back at 3:57pm as she asked me if I was going to evacuate and I was like “huh”—I told her I would run up the mountain/boulders across from her and grab some pics and report back to her but instead of meeting her first I met with a squad boss first and then hiked yesterday with a sheriff and sent him a map today of the spots to my photos were taken- I am more prepared to properly assess this fire then the missing elements last one- plus I learned the laws and foia act- so it helps to be educated-
If you got this email than it is my official request for a FOIA form to officially fill out for you to answer-
who was the blonde female public works person down off Mina on to the old stage Road and their position on the tenderfoot fire? when did they arrive on the scene and how long were they positioned at that crucial point in the investigation of this fire?
I have blank cd disks to give you to put all the FOIA information on-
please notify where to mail or go in person with the disk-
thank you
Joy A. Collura
(((Q: Can I get personnel records?
A: Yes. While certain kinds of information may be redacted (health information, Social Security number, phone numbers, for example), a public employee’s personnel record is public. To withhold information in it, the agency must show specific and serious harm to the individual or agency resulting from release. Salary, resume and all the other basics are always to be released. Performance reviews generally are considered a public record, but some officials have become savvy at figuring out how to keep nosy citizens and reporters from getting their top managers’ performance evaluations. For example, a governing body may go into executive session – in which, by law, they are allowed to discuss personnel issues – and rate top managers for their performance evaluations. They make whatever comments are pertinent but keep that material out of the personnel file, arguing that it is a part of executive-session minutes. There is little you can do in that case but poll individuals who conducted the review and hope they will share with you information about the official about whom you inquire.))))
in addition- I am requesting the personnel records of the people who were on the tenderfoot fire and their full names, titles, salary, performance reviews for the past year/qualifications and their position for the fire and if they had a red car on 6-8-16? also all vehicles/equipment/fire hydrants used and their locations used from your dept on the tenderfoot fire? I am also extending this request to prior YHF 6-28-13 for the course of that fire as well- I want same information.
YARNELL FIRE DEPT CURRENT STATUS IS WAIT FOR THEIR LAWYER TO CONTACT ME AS I TRIED TO GET FORM AND THEY HAD YCSO STATE TO ME TO LEAVE THE BUILDING AND NOTHING WILL BE GIVEN TO ME SO FIND ANOTHER WAY TO OBTAIN IT- I EMAILED CHIEF BEN PALM THAT I HAVE TO MAKE CORRECTIONS FOR CONGRESS AND FORESTRY SO I WILL FOR THEM TO VIA EMAIL BUT AFTER THAT- IT IS IN THEIR HANDS TO REPLY TO THE PROPER NUMBERED BULLET LISTED QUESTIONS-
THESE ARE THE FOLKS WHO WERE “CC’D”:
VisitUs@ y-pvchamber. c om,I ADDED THE LOCAL CHAMBER BECAUSE SOMEONE SAID THE DOZER BELONGED TO THEM SO I WANTED THEM TO SEE THE EMAIL-
peeplesvalleyfire @ commspeed. net,I ADDED THEM BECAUSE A LOC AL INSIDER SAID THIS IS A REAL AREA THAT NEEDS TO BE EXAMINED-
etemerowski @ wickenburgaz. org, I ADDED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE-
tchristofferson @ wickenburgaz. org, I ADDED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE-
dbrown @ wickenburgaz. org, I ADDED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE-
jbowie @ wickenburgaz. org, I ADDED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE-
FireDept @ glendaleaz. c om,RUMORED A LOCAL SAID THEY WERE THERE SO ADDED THEM-
SFreitag @ cazfire. org, I ADDED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE-
JPolacek @ cazfire. org, I ADDED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE-
SBliss @ cazfire. org, I ADDED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE-
dgarcia @ blm. gov, I ADDED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE-
web.public.works @ yavapai. us, I ADDED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE-
kelliesyfd @aim. c om, I ADDED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE-
[email protected], I ADDED THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE THERE-
bhess@ fs.fed.U S (FORESTRY REPLIED I HAVE LESS THAN 20 DAYS TO GET THE CORRECTIONS TO THEM-)
EMAILED THEM: Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 10:55 AM
CYFD AND FORESTRY WERE THE ONLY RESPONSES—NONE FROM THE REST YET.
Muzzy-
if anyone wants to add direct questions- add them here in this area so I can copy/paste it.
MY MAIN AREAS I AM WANTING FOIAS FROM ARE YFD, CONGRESS, WICKENBURG, PEEPLES VALLEY, FORESTRY, BLM BUT DO I NEED TO DO AIR ATTACK TO SEE WHEN THEY WERE THERE FIRST ON THE SCENE?
THE LOCAL FIRE DEPTS STATE THEY DO NOT HAVE LOCAL DISPATCHERS SO THERE IS NO RECORD OF THAT JUST INCOMING CALLS THAT THEY DO NOT KEEP RECORD OF ON A LAND LINE.
I ALSO FELT SINCE CERTAIN PEOPLE ON THE TOWN’S CHAMBER COMMERCE WERE SEEN IN AREA I WANTED TO ASK ABOUT THAT
I ALSO WANT TO ASK ALL AREAS THEIR VEHICLE AND EQUIPMENT BUT SHOULD I ASK DIRECT ON THE OHVS/QUADS/SIDE BY SIDE AND THE MANUFACTURER/MODEL/YEAR BECAUSE THAT IS A BIG AREA OF THE TOPICS HERE LOCALLY THAT I WANT TO CONFIRM RUMOR FROM FACTS BECAUSE ONE SAID IT WAS THE SAME TYPE OF QUADS THAT WERE UP ON THE WEAVERS 3 YRS AGO SO THAT IS A TOPIC I WANT ANSWERS-
ALSO THE ORIGIN VERSUS THEIR BURNOUT OPERATIONS-
WELL…THANK YOU MUZZY BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN HELPING SONNY AND I AM NOT GOOD AT STRUCTURE OR WHAT THE REAL WORLD LIKES—BUT I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND IT NEEDING BETTER CLARITY —
Ok, I’ll see what I can do
thank you
Muzzy- I want to thank you alot because it took just the “thought or knowing” I had someone had my back on reorganizing my ramble mess of sentences so I can focus to my situation and would be great if someone could format it better so I was able to just copy/paste and mail it out and just at 6:18am today I finally after much true help with failure results from the docs just had a great thing happen after being in my seventh week- Thumbs up. I now can have better hope for time to come—I was like sick too from all the toxins…I hope I have continued 6:18am times …
Joy,
Good to hear. Will answer above later today.
Too bad Ted Knight is no longer with us! Or Barney Fife…
First glimpse… actor Josh Brolin as Eric Marsh.
Unlike what Brendan Mcdonough’s own published book said… they got the color of the helmet right (red).
Also evidence of burns on the ground, and they are actually getting dirty now. Soot on face, etc.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BG5h2f8kTwj/?hl=en
Sorry… I don’t give a flyin fuck who is playing Eric Marsh… Don’t care if it’s Josh Brolin, PeeWee Herman or Roseanne Barr…
It’s a bullshit movie full of lies and gets us no closer to the truth…
Geez, I sound like Gary Olsen 🙂
Reply to Rocksteady post on June 21, 2016 at 7:08 pm
>> Rocksteady said…
>>
>> Sorry… I don’t give a flyin fuck who is playing Eric Marsh…
>> Don’t care if it’s Josh Brolin, PeeWee Herman or Roseanne Barr…
>>
>> It’s a bullshit movie full of lies and gets us no closer to the truth…
Yep. Not even going to TRY.
It WILL be interesting, however, to learn WHERE they are even going to ‘place’ Eric Marsh at the moment he decided to commit suicide.
ALL the way at the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’?
Up on one of the ‘mounds’ short of there?
Head deep in the Manazanita?
If they go with the ‘pull’ theory ( Marsh out scouting ‘ahead’ of the crew that afternoon rather than either WITH them or BEHIND them )… then they will have to offer SOME ‘explanation’ why, if Marsh really was way out AHEAD of those men that day… that he would have still let them keep coming forward to their DEATHS.
>> Rocksteady also said….
>>
>> Geez, I sound like Gary Olsen.
( Duck and cover drill )… It’s ‘Olson’… not ‘Olsen’.
I don’t really care what somebody calls me as long as it’s not late for dinner. People have written my name Olsen 99% of the time for 99% of my life. I was just joking around that day. I am really a funny guy.
And I agree with both of you about the movie except it will raise the profile of hotshots and given my jealousy of smokejumpers, I think that will be a good thing.
you do, Rocksteady- when I read it I had to scroll and see who wrote it again because I thought I saw ROCKSTEADY but sounded like MIA Gary O-
The tenderfoot fire was another thing to ponder. I believed I was filming what was the original fire up on the mountain side going up the mountain that adjoins Yarnell on the east side of 89. Wrong, I was filming what had been started by the local fire department. The fire in question was around the mountain and down in the canyon off the Stanton road and SW of Yarnell. We drove my Geo down and met a wild land fire fighter who gave us a map of where they had placed the start of the fire, not the one caused by the Yarnell fire fighters who did burn structures–two sheds and a tower building.
Well I was outside and there was a nice breeze directing the fire to the SE as well. There was no alarm in my mind at all in this fire unlike the other one. Skys were clear and weather indicated that the breezes would continue like clockwork toward the east and southeast. There were no lightening storms, and I for one could see no reason to worry about Yarnell considering all the conditions. If those were structure fire fighters that started the back burn as they called their burn out, then they did a good job of burning a few structures and burning off the west side of that mountain. That also put a main fire in action where likely the fire that was burning along the east side of Stanton dirt road should have been contained easily enough. You see as long as that fire was directed as it was it was headed toward a less dense area around Stanton that would be hard put to continue with the light breeze we were experiencing.
Their burn out did create plenty more jobs and even caused the evacuation of Peeples Valley residents. I have no idea why they wanted to evacuate Yarnell since they had already burned all the west side of that mountain leaving a good half mile of black–of course that fire they set on the east side of Yarnell went up that hill quickly–it is very steep and we know how quickly an uphill fire goes from the Yarnell Incident that taught firefighters and others that fact as proven when the GMHS crew challenged that fact by risking lives in going downhill toward that fire. The only thing here we knew even without the weatherman that the fire would continue to the SE and if it did top the ridge back toward Yarnell it would have to go downhill against a constant breeze–a breeze that generally continues daily and toward the east as June winds do unless there are thunderstorms in the area–then of course a reversal is easily predicted. They did manage to burn electrical poles as well so the juice was off and even the dollar store lost lost of perishable food items. I have a small refrigerator–my beer did not spoil but the milk, butter and baloney was a loss.
Joy did go in and ask for public records. They were quite upset that she would do that–they seem to forget they work for the public and by Arizona law must provide records with allowable redactions. They argued with her and questioned why she would want them-another no-no. Then they called the sheriff on her as well. I was there, but did not speak–my hearing is a disadvantage but I heard enough of their denials. What–this is another expenditure in the millions and after the last fiasco the public does not have a right to look in on what the fire fighters are doing? I understand that over 4 million in tax payer money was spent here–yet we as tax payers are not allowed to see the records of what went on? Instead we are told to accept what they tell us after the fact.
In this case again we are told how they saved Yarnell. Well fact is with winds as they are and where the fire was, I can tell you that it is a stretch to say by burning the west side of the mountain off they saved Yarnell. That fire would have never reached Yarnell and a line without the burn out would have been sufficient. What the burn out in this case did was to expand the fire greatly. But this is my opinion only and I would want some real experienced men such as Gary, Bob,Norb or Ted to take a look at where the fire started. weather, winds, and the situation to tell me what I believe to be true.
Maybe we tax payers are again being bilked. Maybe we should not be mixing structure fire fighters with wild land fire fighters. I do know it is imperative that people start looking at what is being done in the mixing of wild land fire fighting and structure fire fighting professions.
The papers tout this as a saving of Yarnell situation. I saw this burnout as error. There was a broad line of agent orange retardant laid out on the east side of Yarnell just beyond the structures on the east side of Hwy 89. You can see where the fire went right on through the retardant–and that had to be from the burnout that was going uphill from where they started it near the structures–so they were hoping to stop the burnout with retardant since they knew it was headed to plenty of fuel up the mountain and would continue oto the east side of the mountain and beyond as well. The retardant did not work and the fire did continued on. I think that error of a burn out cost a few million, but as usual accolades and cheers for a good job are given and the public is none the wiser.
As far as Joy having a hard time both in the Yarnell and Congress offices to get information and public records about this fire to share to the public–much resistance, so much I hope she gets hold of the Attorney General. The laws have been broken in that respect.
Charlie said: We drove my Geo down and met a wild land fire fighter
MY REPLY: Eddie
Charlie said: mixing structure fire fighters with wild land fire fighters.
MY REPLY: mixing …aka hybrid…I feel are just fine under the proper training and leadership- and full comprehension of wind, weather and terrain and when to say NO
Joy,
Re: MY REPLY: mixing …aka hybrid…I feel are just fine under the proper training and leadership- and full comprehension of wind, weather and terrain and when to say NO
I’m afraid I’m with Sonny on this. WLFFs need to be able to sacrifice structures to stay safe, while structure guys are taught to risk their lives to save structures. It’s hard enough to learn one side of the work, much less to know when and how to change hats mid-fire.
It seems like lots of folks, even WLFFs themselves, are quick to belittle wildland fire fighting technique and knowledge, especially strategy. I think the initial attack on the Tenderfoot fire suggests that there’s more to it than swinging a drip torch at some dry brush along the road. Like chess, to do a good job, you need to think 3-5 steps ahead, like securing the equipment shed and the power lines before willy-nilly burning the side of ridge. Or maybe doing this kind of operation in the spring, before red flag days are likely. Or maybe just suppressing the smal fire first.
Muzzy than it becomes a disservice to REAL hybrids who know their shit like someone who reads this blog and so I stay with my opinion not because he reads this shit but because a long time I ran a high quality kitchen and I had the motherf’er of all health inspection guys…years after he retired I ran into him in Scottsdale and I asked him how come in that whole county he screwed with me during peak high volume hours and he said because I became his challenge to try and “catch” me because he hated to give me a 100% on my inspections- it was not his style to give a hundred and I ruined his style but when it comes to in the kitchen I am a clean as you go serious perfectionist and make sure my equipment and my food and my crew were on target- that was my job— I think a certain person who reads this did the same with himself and his crew so saying hybrids are all bad- not true…some had it going on and so I think if you have the proper leadership and comprehension of fire, water, terrain, weather and wind and the dick heads above you who try and test you to risk alot—They would not be able to pull that with me if I had leadership position so it is about not having kiss asses to higher ups as bosses and get the whole system and make it functional in a dysfunctional system and I do believe the hybrids are here to stay…just need proper person who knows how to talk to the higher ups and the grunts—LEADERSHIP is the thing that lacks and that is the way the higher ups treat the people below them…as they sit in air conditioned rooms year after year these men and women on the lines gruel out each hot weathered seasons and its the grunts that deserve the accolades…awards…not the higher ups and if you are a TRUE leader you would want your grunts to have that recognition—so I am sorry Muzzy I stay FIRM on my views there and by the way that health inspector guy and I became pals after he retired but he said what he liked during it all I was always “dressed to the nine like I never just woke up and washed and went to work…” (well, I spent five hours getting ready for work—I went running or the gym or bicycling than I would do my calisthenics routine to improve strength and physique because I was a rare chef who wore heels (I lived in my heels) and I really spent alot of time airbrushing my body and doing my hair…NOT EVEN NEAR WHAT YOU SEE IN THE JOY TODAY…The health inspector enjoyed how I was “real” and “calm” in extreme EXTREME stressful situations and yet this YHfires I have not been calm at times on at all…I wish I can pull that kitchen behavior in to the boxing ring here in this fight to change wildfires but my health is a huge contributing factor of my behaviors through all this even knowing Sonny…Sonny has been a real true man in helping me stay alive…the extreme times we have shared we both seem to be able to just brush it off because we do see the value of the knowing of another…and we are real independent people…but yes to hybrids if under the right people…
Ok, so maybe we should call these careful and competent guys WUI FFs, not hybrid, but a whole new animal. But this new field has little history and still has to make mistakes and get killed before they develop their own version of the 10&18 and whatever the pure structural guys have. Think Esperanza and Twisp River, and Yarnell.
Do they currently have the organization and influence to demand defensible buildings/communities or whatever they need to do their jobs safely and effectively? If not, they’d better soon.
Cul de sac developments and gated communities may keep the burglars out, but they are fire traps during evacuations. They need a defensible border around the whole thing, but how many do?
You get the idea. One thing is for sure, the battalion chiefs and the state forester will not do it for them.
muzzy said: You get the idea. One thing is for sure, the battalion chiefs and the state forester will not do it for them.
MY REPLY- I agree Muzzy— I think it is not as easy in action because for 3 years I have been focused on defensible space much more than this YFD and ask the people—because anytime I help a person I ask did they ever ask YFD for help since they have grants…do they comprehend what defensible space means and is…more people DO NOT
Joy,
Here is a link you might want to share with your neighbors:
http://www.lincolncountynm.gov/property_thinning_information/index.php
It is in NM, so the fuels are different, but it shows community action to be safe.
muzzy- serious
many do not want to see that stuff here– I have tried-
I bring educational material when I do it-
they have no problem me doing the work for free but they do not care to do it themselves because some have this slice of rental mentality yet its their home and property—
I do try but not successful much like my failure in both fires investigations but all I can do is try and so I always feel it BEGINS at HOME than property edges—my way of thinking
Muzzy said: Or maybe just suppressing the smal fire first.
AGREED
Charlie-
I also wish someone can look at my foias and help me organize it into a proper organized numbered bullet list to the proper areas vs one big rambling on of questions as I have it—that may help
I have to focus more to health this moment.
**
** THE COMPLETE, CONTIGUOUS, ‘SKY 12’ HELICOPTER VIDEO FOOTAGE TAKEN
** OVER THE YARNELL ‘TENDERFOOT’ FIRE, THE AFTERNOON AND EVENING
** OF JUNE 8, 2016
**
** STARTS AT 5:43 PM AND CONTINUES FOR 1 HOUR AND 15 MINUTES.
A lot of the online media videos have been ‘including’ snippets of aerial video footage taken from Arizona Channel 12’s ‘Sky 12’ Helicopter, which arrived over the ‘Tenderfoot’ fire around 6:00 PM the day it started, but here is the actual COMPLETE and CONTIGUOUS video footage shot from
that ‘Sky 12’ Helicopter that day.
Channel 12 actually posted a LINK to this massive VIDEO file on their own Facebook page, after the Helcopter landed back in Phoenix and this huge video file got ‘dumped’ onto their own hard drives.
This video is ONE HOUR AND FIFTEEN MINUTES LONG ( 1 hour, 15 minutes and 12 seconds ), and it starts at 5:43 PM, just after ‘Sky 12’ took off from Phoenix.
The entire ‘approach’ to the Yarnell area from the EAST is captured, including the moments when
‘Sky 12’ actually got close to Yarnell and started ‘zooming in’ on everything that was happening ‘down there’ in and around Yarnell.
This is NOT ‘TV footage’. This is the actual RAW FOOTAGE as captured continuously by the video cameras mounted under the Helicopter.
You can CLEARLY see the ‘smokes’ that were all on the ground there on the EAST side of ‘Y’ mountain as ‘Sky 12’ comes into Yarnell… including what appears to be the actual ‘origin’ of the ‘Tenderfoot’ fire.
It ( the actual origin? ) appears to have been in the process of just ‘burning itself out’ there on the EAST side of ‘Y’ mountain even as the firefighters in Yarnell were then ‘lighting up’ the ENTIRE WEST side of ‘Y’ mountain… all along ‘Crest Way’. Those manual ignitions would then become the massive blaze that would ‘take off’ up the western slope of ‘Y’ mountain and go on to become the actual ‘blaze’ that would continue to head to the Northeast all night… and become the actual ‘blaze’ that it would eventually take 4+ MILLION dollars to extinguish completely.
You can ALSO see… as ‘Sky 12’ got even closer… that there were these mysterious BURNS taking place on the EAST side of the mountain, even though the actual ‘origin’ smoke on that EAST side was ‘diminishing’ and it looks like the original ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ was burning itself out.
It appears that some group of firefighters were also there on the EAST side of the mountain lighting ‘manual ignitions’ in addition to the massive ignitions that were already in progess down along ‘Crest Way’.
‘Sky 12’ ZOOMS in on these mysterious ‘burns’ as it is ’rounding the bend’ and about to start filming what was happening on the WEST side of ‘Y’ mountain.
As the ‘Sky 12′ Helicopter ’rounds the bend’ around ‘Y’ mountain, the scene that was already unfolding down there on the EAST side of Yarnell is astounding.
It looks like ‘drip torches’ were passed out to every Tom, Dick and Harry who could carry one… and we see firefighters down on the ground just absolutely torching everything in sight.
‘Sky 12’ just keeps right on filming… and ZOOMING IN on everything the firefighters were doing on the ground.
You can CLEARLY see BLM vehicles, Arizona Forestry vehicles, Peeples Valley Engine 54, and other vehicles ( and firefighters ) all over the place… some just waltzing through the bushes with drip torches… all alone.
And it kept ZOOMING in on all this activity on the ground for the next HOUR.
So this video has it ALL. You can see EVERYTHING that was taking place there on the ground… and ‘Sky 12’ captured all of the ‘Air Drops’ that took place during that hectic firefight on the ground… VLAT and LAT and SEAT drops included.
Here are the ‘links’ to this PUBLIC video sitting on the ‘Channel 12’ Server(s)…
** LINK FOR DESKTOP BROWSERS…
This is just the ‘regular’ link to the video as-posted on Channel 12’s PUBLIC Facebook page…
Video Title: Sky 12 at Yarnell, Arizona, where the Tenderfoot fire has caused evacuations.
Posted to ‘Channel 12’ Facebook page: 7:43 PM, June 8, 2016
https://www.facebook.com/12news/videos/10154347815079015/
NOTE: Give the ‘Channel 12’ PUBLIC Facebook page a moment to redisplay a few times as it ‘figures out’ that this is a specific video you are asking for and it gets its shit together to display it. It will ‘autostart’ when Facebook has it ‘all figured out’.
** LINK FOR MOBILE DEVICES…
THIS link will actually allow you to easily ‘capture’ the video to your own hard drive.
Facebook is always ‘too stupid’ to know whether you are accessing it from a ‘Mobile Device’, or not… so it relies on you just asking for ‘m.facebook.com’ instead of ‘www.facebook.com’.
The ‘m’ instead of the ‘www’ is the only thing that gives the stupid Facebook software a ‘clue’ whether you want the MOBILE version of the page, versus the larger DESKTOP page.
So even if you click the following link with your DESKTOP browser… Facebook will then just ‘think’ you are a ‘smartphone’ and will send you the page formatted for MOBILE…
Video Title: Sky 12 at Yarnell, Arizona, where the Tenderfoot fire has caused evacuations.
https://m.facebook.com/12news/videos/10154347815079015/
But now that Facebook was too stupid to know you are NOT really a ‘Smartphpne’… it is now very easy to capture any VIDEO that might be appearing on this ‘Mobile format’ page.
When the video appears in the ‘Timeline’… but formatted for Mobile… just click the video to ‘play it’ like you normally would.
But something different will now happen since Facebook is too stupid to know you are NOT actually a ‘Smartphone’ asking to play the video.
Your Browser window will go ‘all black’… and then ( after a pause whilel the first video segment pre-loads ) all you will see is the video in the center of the Browser window.
Facebook just thought you were a ‘Smartphone’… so it then just displays a raw link to the media itself and not all the usual crap that goes with it as would appear if it knew you were actually using a Desktop browser.
Once the video ‘appears’… it will probably start ‘auto-playing’ and all you will see is a lot of ‘boondock’ since ‘Sky 12’ was still in the mountains on approach to Yarnell.
You can now just ‘watch’ the video ( for an HOUR and 15 minutes )… or you can 7now easily CAPTURE the entire thing to your own hard drive.
If you want to CAPTURE the entire video yourself, at this point, then just click the PAUSE button and STOP the on-screen video from playing.
Now just RIGHT-CLICK the video there in the middle of the BLACK SCREEN and you will get a menu option that says…
“Save Video As…”
Just pick that… and now you can SAVE the ENTIRE video to your own hard drive.
Your browser will now DOWNLOAD the entire video straight from Facebook to your own hard drive ( after you tell the popup window where on your hard drive you want to save the entire video ).
This particular one will be ‘downloaded’ as a massive MP4 video file… and it’s going to take a while… since the entire video is 1 hour and 15 minutes long.
** THE ‘TIMES’ FOR ‘EVENTS’ IN THIS 1 HOUR AND 15 MINUTE VIDEO
Here are the actual TIMES for this video ( both offsets into video and ‘real time’ that day )…
+00:00 – 5:43:39 PM
‘Sky 12’ raw footage video starts. Helicoper has lifted off from Phoenix and is headed EAST to the Yarnell ‘Tenderfoot Fire’.
‘Sky 12’ will be on ‘approach’ to Yarnell for the next 16 minutes.
+16:23 – 6:00:02 PM
‘Sky 12’ Helicopter is close to Yarnell, approaching from the EAST, and is now over the actual ‘origin’ of the ‘Tenderfoot fire’.
+18:04 – 6:01:43 PM
‘Sky 12’ chopper is now ‘zoomed in’ on spot fires on EAST side of ‘Y’ mountain, which appear to be ‘manual ignitions’ started on the EAST slope ( not WEST ).
+19:04 – 6:02:43 PM
‘Sky 12’ chopper is now ‘around the corner’ of ‘Y’ mountain and now filming right over Yarnell, and begins ZOOMING IN on all the activity down there.
For the next hour… you can see firefighters EVERYWHERE on the ground pretty much ‘torching’ everything in sight on that EAST end of Yarnell.
Sometimes the ‘ZOOM DOWN’ is good enough to almost identify individual firefighters, and read the numbers on the sides of BLM and Arizona Forestry vehicles.
There is still NO SIGN of this ‘GRADED FIREBREAK’ that everyone ( including Arizona Forester Jeff Whitney ) has been talking about in the media.
+31:10 – 6:14:40 PM
Zoom in on celltower. Appears to have not burned there yet?
etc…
This ‘Sky 12’ video is 1 hour 15 minutes and 12 seconds long.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/sw-wildfire-agencies-issue-updated-structure-protection-rules/
Wwtktt…did you save video so in case they take it off you have copy…I can’t…few hours away from procedure and not capable until after it…
UPDATE-
I officially hiked and explored the cattle guard area and I did not see any evidence of foul play or fires near except way in the distance so it would take me to decide now after seeing how this first fire investigation went or didn’t go and decide do I need to continue to pursue and see the glares and hear the labels “why do you care- it is not your district?” and yes I heard it again from an ol time resident fella today and his depth he had a point so why is it I get offended when YFD Arlon Rice says something but “got it” when the old fella said it— I have such a passion and in it I am lost…like I said long ago I was broken before the fire and after the fire and now this fire…I do know my terrain the fella must admit and I could take the time and relook at and take pics of Jimmy’s eyewitness pics and match it up to what I saw today or I can just let this all go since its just a few who even give a shit locally and online…I guess I better get a real job so I can help pay for fires others start and get praised for it and make others richer—I don’t know…I was asked “what is in it for you? Let me say this to you…Joy, if a man was hungry you would feed him and if a person needed five bucks you would give your last dollars but on entities as grand as this and I know since I have been here for many many many decades you one person or many will not change anything and you will be viewed as just the conspirators.” and then when he said that I thought should I get offended- does he know Arlon or Denise but then he really spoke to me and told me “there is nothing I can do but get the toxins out of me (you know the stuff I have been dealing with and have procedure tomorrow) and so focus to health because without it you cannot be there for these locals with clarity” so I asked myself—“do I abide and listen?”…I am not looking to tarnish anything.. I just want to quickly gather the information put it out for the world and let them assess it by the documents/photos/vidoes like I did on the last fire. I saw the fire and his own relative saw that fire…I am not trying to orchestrate hearsay or make people think bad of the YFD and I was told that is what people will do to me in this—they will tear you a part and make you out to be the villain and all I wanted was to show the information so we can see for our own selves and I thought we deserved it after the last fire and so I lay with my head low and humbly do not know…I feel like when the foias come in OR not- I post them since I paid for them…and if people come to me with footage I show them here but I just do not know…I have like a true failure and yet I always have this guilt deep inside because I directly helped people that if I walk away I am letting them down and just recently a woman who knew this ol fella hugged me as she lost her home and thanked me for never giving up on that fire or this one—so that they can move forward and heal but I think at times I need the healing because John MacLean took me a good person and spoke in front of thousands making his friends reach out to me and that was like “huh…I never thought John would degrade me in front of thousands.”…I think I am irrational at times and emotional and too detailed/too much information and if you look at my history I can say I have BACKBONE but I do not have a healthy balance of structure or discipline in my life..if I did would I be kicking it and exploring like I do…but this is me and it’s all I know and this ol’ fella said maybe if you walk away from all you know and hit that empty spot that my intuitive can lead me to my path may it be the fire or something else but he said really just distance away and focus to health because in listening or if one reads he said I am using the fire to mask the pains of my own health journey and I admitted that on here…I can tell you the Crest Way did not have any fire break as I walked it today on certain permitted personal properties and listened to their account strictly privately and they are pleased by the results and I said what does one say to the McKiddies…your neighbors are fine with the job well done and its their properties that had tall blazes on the media…I guess I am too involved and I guess I just always want to have all the information so we the tax paying people can make our own assessments…I am sorry…I am…it’s who I am…and why do I care—I just think there is a better way to fight fires..I head a guilt like maybe I tarnished their glory party today at YFD and I did not mean that just wanted the information so I can get clarity—well, it what it is…if they did or did not do what locals said- why is it my business—it is not my district…
today at the diner sat behind me was Rowle Simmons and Byron—-and another guy—assessing area for flooding and he told these people as they said they drove up to see the fire and he said they saved the town- and so I quickly emailed him and said would he had said that if that was McKiddie eating there…
I met the EYEWITNESS “Tracy” after seeing Rowle at diner—he stays behinds Barb’s area and he gave me photos and he had a lot of the same but I took pic with my cell of his cell ( I will place his photos on that link earlier), the photo and the times- he is the one who called Captain and spoke to John Rice at 3:01pm on 6-8-13 from the Catholic church area as he noted the smoke and local coffee shop owner/Yarnell firefighter Jeff Shearer (h ttp://y arnellfire.or g/YFD-picx/crew/300w/Jeff_Shearer.png drove down that way and they stopped near the cattle area/mines to the right…that is when Jeff told Tracy to leave the area and he did. The lady by the motel in charcoal truck told the investigators of Tracy and a young man with long dark curly hair in ponytail and a young man with dark hair came to their place when he was not home and his lady said he will call them—the number they showed me and I called they do not claim to be investigating the fire nor were in Yarnell so have to go back to his house and take pic of the number on cell to confirm- so BE RIGHT BACK…gonna go over there now and get the information—but before I go this Jeff Shearer drove a brush truck that holds 400 gallons of water so now I can obtain his direct position on the fire— four quads he has seen and he told the investigators as they were disinterested and just asked him the ethnicity of drivers but they were side by side OHV cookie cutter geared up with helmets and long sleeves and such and had prospecting/mining detectors sticking out—color was that infamous YELLOW and now black—but he seen them in town before and as well at Stanton area—I will dig there–much better than the technical investigators- Tracy went to Congress after five pm when the electric went out—
WITH PURITY:
I walk in and ask for foia form at YFD and Arlon Rice (http: // w ww.fronterasdesk. org/sites/default/files/field/image/2013/07/rice.jpg?itok=lc52Rx1W) steps in as Denise (ht tp:/ /deniseroggio. co m/)
said she does not know where they are-
where is YFD Doug Jarmuth who is suppose to be COMMUNICATIONS guy—he is not even reachable to communicate with—
MIND YOU SHE SAID THAT LAST IN PERSON VISIT- IT IS NOW THE 20th. The fire happened on the 8th—AND SHE SAW MY EMAILS AND STUFF AND YET NEVER LET ME KNOW “NO FOIA FORM”—
(Sonny’s eyewitness states he was in vehicle and came in because he wanted to get going and he heard them say to me “we don’t have to give you a foia form or personnel records and why do you want this information- you are not even from this district and Sonny heard me tell the man by Arizona law their dept has to give me a form to fill out and Sonny was whispering to me let’s go when Denise called YCSO Sgt Ashby because he knew she would front them and not be impartial in matter and to me I found Ashby OK- she said they are not giving what you want- now leave—end of story. and that is when Joy stated the TRUTH will come out.)
Arlon Rice says what is my interest in this as they were just praised for saving the town by the people in town (MEDIA TOO OF COURSE HE SHOULD OF ADDED) and I said not all people and he said I am not even from that district and he made front of my way I wrote my FOIA request (should of been in paragraph format) and let me tell the WORLD- I am STILL a taxpaying person (district or no district) and I do not even have to tell you WHY just if it is non-commercial/commercial and general purpose and I already stated I am researching all local fires and I still live in Arizona and I can still ask for records maybe not like an intellect like Sonny who can be officially named a Doctor but I still can ask IN MY OWN WAY- education or how I format something still bottom line by law I am allowed to get a foia public form without this discussions and questions/interrogations and then Denise Roggio spills out “what are you some conspirator?” as if I am not “listening” she said to Arlon Rice and I replied NO but I am “watching” and documenting all photos/footage and documents so this fire is properly assessed and I said this fire did not start by Yarnell and over by Stanton and Arlon kept saying district this and that and that JUST A FEW HOURS AGO district put it back in YFD hands. That the chief is at Cedar Creek fire and so they cannot get any foia form for me nor know when it will ever happen or when the chief will be back and how come I have to do this- what am I trying to do- he said I am on chairman on the fire board and that is when I stated with no scream but with aggravation and emotion in tone for him making front of me how I do my foia requests and I said your fire dept may be praised all day long but you ask anyone with “experience” in either structural or wild land firefighting that Chief Ben Palm used wrong fire terminology as “back burn” but may it been a structural protection within city limits or a wild land burn out operation it was not done properly and he said I am to leave the building and I said I would like that in writing versus verbal that they refuse me to obtaining the form to fill out so that when Chief Ben Palm comes back the form is ready to go and Arlon said their lawyer will handle it and he is done and that is when Denise called YCSO DIRECT LINE to Sgt Ashby—REALLY? Please explain that to me how it works…because Arlon said their lawyer will reach me and I asked who is their lawyer so I can reach them and Denise said that is not how it works…I ONLY STAYED AS I TOLD SGT ASHBY…because had I gone they could say whatever and I wanted to look Ashby in the eyes and state the TRUTH will come out- then I left- I was there a couple minutes trying to explain to Ashby but she said “why you telling me- we just want peace” (as if I am the trouble???) so I guess as I told her to explain “how come” the BIGGEST entity in this FORESTRY send me as I showed her my FOIA promptly and even YCSO has explained their delays so I am just wanting the FORM to fill out and I am made out to be the SHIT in this—why because I am gathering details with documented PROOF/footage that what happened and WHY the taxpayers paid over $4million is not OK by me? I am the SHIT???? What???? I will never step foot in that building again because now I will be afraid to be slapped a harassment deal in this crony county just like last time when all I am doing is gathering documented PROOF and I am allowed to ask for personnel records to see if the men or women were qualified and Denise said if they were on the line- they were qualified —well I paid for that fire to be put out and I want to SEE that PROOF- she also told me she will not be sending me that proof because she only deals with EMPLOYERS and well I am JUST JOY—I told them I have footage and now I have
glaze all you want folks
**
** FIRE BREAK?… WHAT FIRE BREAK?
Even the reporters at AZCENTRAL are now ‘swallowing the Kool Aid’…
AZCENTRAL
Lessons from Yarnell Hill aid current wildfire-fighting efforts.
Published: 10:20 AM MST June 17, 2016
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/06/17/arizona-forestry-officials-using-yarnell-lessons-wildfire-season/85576448/
From the article…
————————————————–
Jeff Whitney, who became Arizona’s top forestry official 16 months ago, said federal and state officials approached the recent Tenderfoot Fire with new knowledge, technology and resources — lessons learned after 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots were killed in Yarnell three Junes ago. He even refers to the 2013 blaze as a tragic academy, or place of learning.
Within minutes of the smoke sighting, engine crews launched a furious initial attack, supported by a giant air tanker and backed by a firebreak that had been graded along the community’s eastern edge..
————————————————–
“… a FIREBREAK that had been GRADED along the community’s eastern edge.
.
Nope. That’;s still just as big of a LIE as it was last week.
GRADED… WHERE?
New Satellite Imagery from just 8 weeks ago shows absolutely NO such thing.
WTKTT,
These are serious charges, and I find it hard to believe that such an easily verifiable fact would be fabricated. Hard but not impossible. Can anyone in town verify that any reporters even showed up in Yarnell, or were all interviews done via phone and Skype?
I wonder if the state grant was documented with maps and photos. In general, contracts are well documented, while grants are more open ended, with the grantee given some latitude in how the money is spent.
From Joy’s comments, it seems like someone doesn’t want anyone to get the straight story.
Reply to Muzzy post on June 20, 2016 at 4:39 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Can anyone in town verify that any reporters even
>> showed up in Yarnell, or were all interviews done via
>> phone and Skype?
Well.. I certainly wasn’t there… but once that EAST side of Yarnell was evacuated, NO ONE was being allowed ‘in’ while they had fun ‘torching’ the entire mountainside.
The only ‘interviews’ I have seen in the media footage were by phone ( like all the ones Denise Roggio did with pretty much ALL the local TV stations ).
Later that evening… they finally got reporters in the area but best they could do is talk to people stranded at the Congress dollar store and at the roadblocks on both the north and south side of town.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> I wonder if the state grant was documented with maps and photos.
>> In general, contracts are well documented, while grants are more
>> open ended, with the grantee given some latitude in how the
>> money is spent.
From the article you just linked to below… and from the mouth(s) of that husband-and-wife team ( the Lantrips ) that are listed as official ‘Yarnell Fire Department’ Firefighters…
http://kjzz.org/content/321873/officials-fire-breaks-saved-yarnell-flames
——————————————————————–
That line was built with federal and state grants after the tragic Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013, which killed 19 firefighters and wiped out nearly 130 homes in this small town. Firebreaks aren’t the only positive response to the fire. Lantrip’s wife, Beverly, also a volunteer fighter, said the sorrow helped bring her neighbors together.
——————————————————————–
So now this whole ‘no-one-knows-where-it-really-was’ firebreak is being elevated to the mythical status of being one of “the only positive thing to come out of the 2013 Yarnell Fire”?
Seriously?
These ‘Yarnell Hill FD FFs’ also say, unequivocally, that was both STATE *and* FEDERAL dollars ‘falling out of the sky’ for this ‘work’ that no one seems to be able to point to.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> From Joy’s comments, it seems like someone doesn’t want
>> anyone to get the straight story.
I’m sure both Joy’s email request and her written request went straight into the trash can at the good ‘ol Yarnell Hill Fire Department.
Things like ‘Arizona Open Records’ laws are for ‘other people’… NOT for them.
They have NO INTENTION of ever letting ANYONE find out ANYTHING about what they simply consider to be “their business and no one else’s”.
They might be about to get a good ‘civics’ lesson… and learn what the ‘public servant’ part of ‘public servant’ actually MEANS.
WTKTT,
Maybe, but that there grant money comes from the Feds, even though it is administered through AZForestry, so they will have to show proof of work done, with receipts and payroll records. Here is a grant instruction form that looks like it’s for the 2017 version of the one Yarnell&Co. got.
https://azsf.az.gov/sites/default/files/AZ-2017_WUI_Grant_Program-Request_for_Projects.pdf
Reading the instructions, it looks more like a contract, so no loosy-goosy accounting.
There is also this program:
https://azsf.az.gov/grants/hazard-fuels/wfhf
It looks similar; the site contains a list of 2015 recipients; the closest was Prescott. The deadline for 2016 grants was March 4, 2016, but no list of awardees.
the hikers did privately hike with a contracted person of azcentral during tenderfoot fire but we spoke on last fire not this one-
most where told to be stationed only at model creek school area only- not in Yarnell.
WTKTT,
Here is an article with quite a few photos of the fire scene:
http://kjzz.org/content/321873/officials-fire-breaks-saved-yarnell-flames
Some purport to show the fire breaks, but I don’t see anything that looks like the description we heard from Whitney and Palm, I.e., 100 foot wide clear of brush, 8 acres worth, not done with fire but with saws and dozers. All I see is a narrow two-track with abundant trees and brush, as well as a fire line with no evidence of prior clearing to mineral earth. This looks like it resulted from the manual ignition.
This is one of those ‘Mark Twain’ moments when (as he is famous for saying even though he didn’;t originate the quote ) “A LIE can travel halfway around the world before the truth even has a chance to get its boots on”.
From the very article you link to above ( and from the mouth of two actual Yarnell Hill volunteer firefighters as well )…
————————————————————————–
At the nearby fire station, volunteer fire fighter Wayne Lantrip echoed many fire officials who said this positive outcome was due in large part to fire breaks, meaning areas clear of vegetation, protecting Yarnell.
“If there wasn’t the defensive line, the town would be gone,” he said.
That line was built with federal and state grants after the tragic Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013, which killed 19 firefighters and wiped out nearly 130 homes in this small town. Firebreaks aren’t the only positive response to the fire. Lantrip’s wife, Beverly, also a volunteer fighter, said the sorrow helped bring her neighbors together.
————————————————————————–
“…the defensive line”
“That line was built with federal and state grants after the tragic Yarnell Hill Fire”
WHAT “defensive line”.
WHERE?
What the FUCK are all these taxpayer-salaried morons talking about?
Watch them try to say now that it was THERE… but the massive burnouts have now ‘obscured’ this vapor-ware ‘defensive line’.
This article is also typical ( and part of the LIE going ’round the world’ before the TRUTH can even ‘catch up’ ) with regards to what the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ even WAS.
EVERYONE is assuming that ALL of that fire seen in ALL of those photos crawling up the west side of ‘Y’ mountain is (quote) “The Tenderfoot Fire”.
It’s not.
It’s just all the massive fire that THEY ‘put on the ground’ that afternoon.
The article says…
“Tom Florence, like many locals here, was impressed by the response to the blaze, which came within feet of homes”.
The ONLY fire that came “within feet of homes” was all the fire that was being manually SET “within feet of homes”.
Followup…
I said…
The ONLY fire that came “within feet of homes” was all the fire that was being manually SET “within feet of homes”.
Feeling the need to REPOST the following photograph.
After a lot of searching… it still remains ( I believe ) one of ( if not THE ) earliest photos taken of the ACTUAL “Tenderfoot Fire”… as reported to the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office *and* directly to the Yarnell Fire Department.
BOTH of those agencies have said that ALL initial reports of the location of the fire put it almost 2 miles to the SOUTHEAST of Yarnell… in the ‘Stanton’ area, where ‘Mina Road’ turns into ‘Old Stagecoach Road’.
And this photo absolutely VERIFIES that as the ‘original Tenderfoot fire location’.
One of the earliest known photos of the ‘Tenderfoot’ fire…
http://meredithaz.images.worldnow.com/images/10738468_G.jpg
The photo show the fire was originally burning on the far EAST side of that mountain where the cell towers are… and that it had ORIGINATED in thsoe ‘draws’ off to the southeast of Yarnell… in the ‘Stanton’ area.
What makes this photo TRULY relevant is that is also actually shows the SOUTH end of Crest Way, and the same house with the garage that Denise Roggio would eventually show on fire in HER photo(s).
In this ‘early’ photo… the fire is nowhere near ‘Crest Way’ and no one had even ‘started’ the burnouts there on Crest Way, which would eventually set that garage on fire.
But people ( the media included ) are actually all running around now BELIEVING that ALL of that fire seen in various media photos and videos of ALL of that fire ‘raging’ on the WEST side of ‘Y’ mountain was… in fact… “The Tenderfoot Fire”.
Not a chance. It was just all the fire that was MANUALLY SET that afternoon, in those high winds, charging up the WEST slope of ‘Y’ mountain and would then become the actual fire that it was going to take 4+ MILLION dollars to ‘put out’.
the ol’ fella today said …
“leans more to too many holes makes it not right?”
I ask…is that me sharing the events as it was shown to me or the other end or both? He said it don’t matter just leave it alone—live my own life and forget the bigger entities and at that point I felt Gary O. was talking to me
Ham radio guy Thomas Florence does not live on CrestWay..he is by real estate office on hwy 89 on hope way…I will fact check with Tom what was said…we see how media has glorified the tenderfoot fire and so I will ask him…heading back to pick my pup from the ac/babysitter…
Can you toss down an approximate location on Google Earth so we can view it?
Just tell Google Earth to go to “Yarnell, AZ”.
Zoom in on the EAST side of Yarnell.
‘Crest Way’ is that last obvious ( paved ) road that runs north to south there on the EAST side of town.
The massive ‘burnouts’ were all initiated at the EAST ends of all the properties there on the EAST side of ‘Crest Way’.
There was NO FIREBREAK there where that almost 1 mile long stretch of ‘Crest Way’ was just ‘lit up’ at the very backs of the lots.
Nuthin’ but boondock.
You are right there is no 100 Ft Fire brake across the back of those properties.
That would stick out like a huge Free Way. $ times the size of those roads running away from the Housing Tract.
They just lit the property lines or fence lines no fire break there.
Robert,
Is 100ft a likely number? That was quoted in the azcentral article; is it possibly a misprint? Would 10ft be more likely? An acre is 43560 sqft, so at 100ft wide, 8 acres of line would be 8 x 435.6ft or just over .6 miles. That wouldn’t be very long.
Muzzy
Even a 10 ft. to dirt break would show the same as the roads you see in the Picture. I just do not believe that there was a break there.
After the Yarnell Hill Fire you would expect to see a large Fire break between Structures and the Brush. A 10 Ft break would not be a real Fuel break. With a wind driven fire with 40 Ft. plus flame lengths it would not stop a running fire.
The only other thing would be just the removal of Brush only and not to bare dirt. I can not tell if there was even that in the Picture.
It shows black to what I would call property lines or even fence lines.
They may have followed a small path along the property boundary to fire from but that would also require Engine water backup as the burned. The loss of any structures would indicate a very poor plan and a poor execution of a Back fire/Burnout what ever they wanted to call it, it was poorly executed.
Yes. I am just getting done with procedure and yes I went yesterday and saw there was no fire break and black to property lines and guess what …tell you later more but in the waiting room was somebody from crest way so I got their full account
Thanks, Bob,
It looks like we have consensus!
Bob Powers
You are right there is no 100 Ft Fire brake across the back of those properties.
That would stick out like a huge Free Way. $ times the size of those roads running away from the Housing Tract.
They just lit the property lines or fence lines no fire break there.
IF (and its a big if, as I have no explored the whole history of this fire) the ignitions were used as a control and suppression tactic, I do not see anything wrong with working right off the back of peoples lots. Most lots are nicely cleared of fuels (maybe even green laws) that are easily secured as a fire break using a basic 1″ mainline of water. By looking at Google, it appears that the land goes up and away from the properties, into an endless sea of chapparal crap.
Plumbing a water line and igniting off the back of the lots would be the most quick and efficient way to do it.
As far as the garage that was lost, looking at that spot for burn off makes me scratch my head… If they wanted to burn that off, a simple hose lay from the pickup seen on google earth by the garage in a SW direction into the dry creek draw (or whatever it is) would have been fairly simple to hold. its only 40 yards long. Even a type 6 engine with 300 gallons of water, could hold that line….
Rocksteady,
Thank you for your expert opinion. Looking at the video of the Peeples Valley engine crew that WTKTT linked to just after it started, my guess is that the high brush was too close to the garage and probably should have been cleared before the ignition, the wind was unfavorable, and the FFs weren’t using the engine at all. One of the FFs didn’t seem to be wearing turnouts or Nomex gear
In fairness, we don’t know if the PV crew started the burn, or if it was started upwind and got out of bounds. The wind was blowing generally parallel to the ridge line.
It seems that the pros agree with the amateurs that there was no break there before the ignition. I wonder if there was any break anywhere in Yarnell before the fire.
The link to the video is in this post by WTKTT:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-339541
Yes Rocksteady that is I am sure what happened. That is what I was saying about burning along property Line did not articulate it well.
The loss of the Garage seems to be a Huge problem.
If it was part of the burnout or was it a Spot fire?
The Fire Looks a little strange out there by its self in the Brush below the Building..
Why any one was saying they had a Fuel break there is
quite a stretch based on what I see.
Hey Bob, looking at the smoke drift, flame length and direction, as well as slope… I conclude it must have been ignited down slope from the garage, not a spot..
Hard to tell in that Picture I believe that was the Right side of the Fire looking at the Air Picture of the Burn and the Housing area.
That would then be where they started the Back Fire from a road and it right away made a uphill and to the side run at the Garage.
They probably should have burned down from the Corner rather than up if that is the case.
They could have taken a little more time on that corner. it could have been done a lot different they had the time.
Once they were burning across the Housing Tract every thing went up the Mountain away from the Houses.
Reply to Rocksteady post on June 20, 2016 at 5:23 pm
>> Rocksteady said…
>>
>> Can you toss down an approximate location on
>> Google Earth so we can view it?
McKiddie garage + workshop that burned was here, on the south end of Crest Way…
34.216743, -112.747661
The ‘manual ignition’ that burned that McKidde garage + workshop to the ground
was started in the thick brush, right about here, to the southwest of the residence…
34.216581, -112.748039
And here is that photo ( taken by Yarnell Fire Department Administrator Denise Roggio ), which shows the actual ‘manual ignition’ itself that would then burn the McKiddie garage + workshop to the ground in less than 8 minutes…
And YES… that is actually the McKiddie garage + workshop there on the left side of the photo… just minutes before it would burn to the ground as a result of the ignition seen in this photo…
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckd7RITWUAAX9KH.jpg
I do not know what they were firing from there but that looks really risky and unprepared to protect that structure.
Another point Where the hell is the Main Fire that was even threating that area??????
Rocksteady (or any of our other WLFFS),
You surely know more about this than I do. Should it be possible to discern the “fire break” even after a fire has passed through? It seems to me that a 100ft wide swath of mineral earth shouldn’t have so much debris as we see in those pix, and there should be a difference between the break and the rest of the field. Is it ever correct to call a relatively clear path a fire break, even if it doesn’t go down to mineral earth?
Does anyone know crew members from Globe, Black Mesa, or I forget which IHC? I think they were the first on scene.
I saw Tatanka by Dollar General store
Joy,
Was that the first night? I seem to remember Craig was one of the first ones on the roster, but that might have only been effective on the second day of the fire.
Yo reply. Tatanka was at ranch house parking lot seen but I can’t find paper yet but I wrote the squad boss name and it seem he said Tokola but saw mesa hotshots too
Yes, an area that has been treated, only brush removed can be called a fire break or fuel break, as it provides something to work from. Even a 4 lane highway is no good as a fire break if it is not supported by resources such as people, water trucks, aircraft etc if the ember transfer is of greater distance than the width of the break.
The alleged 100 ft wide “fire break” or “fuel break” should be easily visible off google earth. It does not need to be down to mineral soil, as long as it is void of a large percentage of its combustibles (brush, trees, logs, etc).
Long story— and will explain but I am in “disbelief” that I went to YFD in person to get foia form and Denise Roggio called the infamous Sgt. Ashby YCSO on me—
let me sit and place it all down but I am in disbelief this lady took it that far-
It must be a very LARGE ‘Open Records Request’ form, if Roggio had to call for someone to help you carry the form out of the building.
If they don’t HAVE a form ( or even if they do )… all you have to do is just send them a letter requesting the information desired.
They are REQUIRED ( by Arizona Law ) to respond to the request and supply the information, unless they start claimiing valid ‘Arizona Open Records’ law EXEMPTIONS as to WHY they refuse to release information.
I already did formally by email and trackable snail mail sent them my questions but no I did not leave with any form— I was asked by YCSO to leave the building with no form-
I am heading back to eyewitness—be back
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 20, 2016 at 10:59 am
>> …call came in at 3:15. cpt John called for every resource available, immediately.
>> Congress, pv were quickly up here.(theres an issue you should look into, the status
>> of their truck.)
‘cpt John’ would be Captain John Rice, of the Yarnell Fire Department.
From the Yarnell Fire Department website… Personnel actively listed as of today…
http://yarnellfire.org/
Fire Chief – Ben Palm
Captain John Rice
Captain Kristee Lewis
Captain Matt Ogden
Firefighter Ricardo Arrendondo
Firefighter Sharon Smith
Firefighter Wayne Lantrip
Firefigher Bev Lantrip
Firefighter Chuck Edwards
Firefigher Jason Hershberger
Firefighter Jeff Shearer
Firefighter Jordan Collins
Firefighter Josh Western
Bookeeper – Nina Bour-Beau
Communications – Doug Jarmuth
Administrator – Denise Roggio
>> Date: Jun 19, 2016 8:16 PM
>> Oh and descrepency could be dependent on who called it in and where it actually
>> took place. Sometimes smoke is seen but not actual source when call is made.
** DENISE ROGGIO CONFIRMS CALLS TO YARNELL FIRE STATION REPORTED ORIGIN
** AS THE ‘STANTON’ AREA. THAT MATCHES YCSO ‘ORIGIN’ REPORT(S).
At 6:29 PM, Phoenix TV station CBS5 had Yarnell Fire Department Administrator Denise Roggio ‘on the phone’ and they started a ‘live on-the-air’ interview with her. Denise Roggio had evacuated from he home there just across ‘Crest Way’ from the McKiddie residence, where the manual-ignitions burned down their garage + workshop… but Roggio didn’t go very far. She only evacuated to the
north side of Yarnell… to the parking lot of the Maughn Ranch Feed Store there along Highway 89.
That’s where she did the following ‘on-air’ interview from.
Denise Roggio say she was THERE at the Yarnell Hill Fire Station the afternoon of June 8, 2016, when the first calls started coming in about what would soon be called the ‘Tenderfoot fire’ ( Because Arizona Forestry dispatchers at first thought the fire was down near ‘Tenderfoot Hill’ in Congress ).
Roggio CONFIRMS that even the calls coming into the Yarnell Fire department said the fire had STARTED down there near Stanton, and near where ‘Mina Road’ turns into ‘Old Stage Coach Road’ ( as was also reported by that first Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office press release ).
Denise Roggios said ( quote )…
———————————————————————-
I WORK for the (Yarnell) Fire Department. I’m the Administrator… and our guys got a call and, of course, being IN the office, I was privy to that there was a wildfire… ah… had been started between Mina Road and Stanton. And so… ah… in my brain that was WAY down the hill.
———————————————————————-
NOTE: The location being described by Roggio ( the area between where Mina Road turns into ‘Old Stagecoach Road’ down near the ‘Stanton’ area ) is 1.82 MILES ( almost TWO miles ) southeast of the town of Yarnell.
Here is a direct link to an online copy of this Denise Roggio on-the-air interview…
http://www.cbs5az.com/clip/12502596/tenderfoot-fire-grows-to-at-least-300-acres
** THE LONG STORY
Just for reference… here is a full transcript of that entire ‘on-the-air’ phone interview that took place on TV station CBS5 ( Phoenix ) at 6:29 PM on June 8, 2016…
TRANSCRIPT…
—————————————————————————————-
The following ‘phone interview’ with Denise Roggio begins at +1:02 into the video, with the REAL time on the TV screen reading 6:29 PM.
News Anchor 1: These are some of the pictures coming in of the Tenderfoot fire… and look at that, Chris.
( The TV screen now shows a photo of the MdKiddie garage + workshop engulfed in flames, with Peeples Valley Type 6 Engine 54 and crew in the driveway, which she had already transmitted to this CBS5 news station ).
News Anchor 1: We are now confirming one building has been lost.
Other News Anchor 2: I believe that we now have Denise Roggio joining us on the phone. She is the Yarnell resident who was evacuated from her home and took us… and took these pictures that were sent to us. Denise… are you with us?
Denise Roggio: I am.
News Anchor 2: Thank you so much for being with us. We are looking at the pictures right now. Can you tell us what you have been through today, and what the current situation is?
Denise Roggio: Sure. Ah. It… it… I gotta tell ya… It’s just like last time. It happened VERY fast. Ah… basically I WORK for the Fire Department. I’m the Administrator… and our guys got a call and, of course, being IN the office, I was privy to that there was a wildfire… ah… had been started between Mina Road and Stanton. And so… ah… in my brain that was WAY down the hill… but VERY quickly… within forty minutes… I could see the flames at the top of the mountain behind my house…
because I live near the atlantic… uh… excuse me… I live near the American Legion. Right now, I am sitting in Maughan Feed Store parking lot. They kicked us kinda outta town, and no one on the east side was allowed to hang around at all… so I… I’m on the outskirts of town just on the… on the town line… and I’m watching slurry being dropped on the hill to the east of me.
( TV screen LIVE video feed from CBS5 Helicopter over Yarnell now shows a DC10 VLAT on approach for a drop on the NORTH side of Yarnell… just EAST of Highway 89 )
News Anchor 1: Hey Denise… what we’re watching right now LIVE on CBS5 while we’re listening to your voice is one of the DC10 air tankers.. and it looks like it’s coming in for a drop. Denise… you know as a Fire Department Administrator for Yarnell that these things carry over 12,000 gallons. That should signify how SERIOUS this fire is right now… correct?
Denise Roggio: Yes. That’s absolutely right… and about a half-hour ago it was a little more than 300 acres, and I’m watching it spread. Now, thankfully, where I’m sitting right now it doesn’t look like the homes in front of it are threatened at the moment… and it seems to be MOVING north… northeast… still… but… ah… I will tell you that I’m concerned because the WIND is picking UP here. Usually the wind lays down in evening, but we DO have wind issues in the mountains. It’s just mountain life… ah… and… ah… it IS picking up… and I DO see quite a few flames coming through the smoke…
News Anchor 2: Denise…
Denise Roggio: …I also see all the emergency personnel.
( TV screen is now back to showing Denise Roggios’ pictures of the McKiddie garage and workshop engulfed in flames )
News Anchor 2: Denise… we are showing some pictures right now that you sent to us. Did you SEE one of the homes… or a structure… what is it, in that picture, that is BURNING?
Denise Roggio: That is DIRECTLY behind my house… and I BELIEVE the only structure that went up was a garage.
News Anchor 1: Okay… and Denise… we all know what you guys went through back in 2013. We can’t even begin to imagine the emotional toll that that took.. losing 19 wildland firefighters back in 2013. When you heard the call come out today… just tell us some of your emotions
Denise Roggio: Ah… it… I… I gotta be honest with ya. My first interview with one of the news people I was crying too hard because I… it’s just… it’s deja vu’ and all you can think is… god… please protect them. Please protect them. Ya know… we DON’T wanna go through this again. Ya know… property can be replaced… stuff can be worked out… but PEOPLE?… you can’t replace them. We don’t wanna lose any life here. And so that was my first thought… and I know that was MANY people’s first thoughts.
News Anchor 2: Absolutely. This is such an EMOTIONAL time for people who have been through this before… going through it again. Denise… how did they get everyone out of town? We heard that there are mandatory evacuations on the east side of town. Do you know if everyone HAS been removed from that area? Out of the danger zone?
Denise Roggio: Yes. There’s no one in the danger zone, from what I was just told. I did ask one of the Sheriffs that was passing by if everyone’s safe and he said that, to his knowledge, everyone is safe. Uhmm… and… uh… yea… they’re… they… what they did with US… and what they… I saw them doing around the whole neighborhood, and it was within plenty of time… just… okay… it’s time to get everything in your car and get outta here. We just don’t wanna take any chances. And at THAT point… there were… we really were not in any DANGER yet. The fire was about one hundred and fifty feet from the house… but there was a good fireline there… so… uhm… ah… they got everybody out.
Now… I DID want to go to a friend’s house on the WEST side…
News Anchor 1: ( Cutting her off ) Denise…
Denise Roggio: …and they won’t let us.
News Anchor 1: ( Cutting her off again ) Hey Denise… we wanna interrupt you because the DC10 right now is laying down a HUGE line of fire… ah… fire retardant right now, on the fire.
Denise Roggio: I’m right in front of that.
News Anchor 1: They’re capable of dropping twelve thousand pounds in 8 seconds. Tell us about what you just saw?
Denise Roggio: Uh… that was the HUGEST slurry I have ever seen… and I’ve never been quite that close to one of those planes like that… that was actually very frightening. Um… I… ah… yea… that was amazing. He’s turning around to come do it again, as far as I can see. What I see in the sky is that very eerie, very strangely colored billowing smoke. I really didn’t wanna remember that. I… I gotta be honest with ya… I just…
News Anchor 1: None of us wanted to remember that.
Denise Roggio: …this is very heart-wrenching.
News Anchor 2: Denise… I know this is tough for you having been through this before… so we appreciate you helping us through this time and kinda guiding us on what is going on in the town… so thank you… we KNOW this is emotionally tough for you… and you DID just mention that it was ‘frightening’ being that close to the… uh… the… the drop of the slurry. Tell us WHY. I have been on a lot of firelines… and that’s not just a liquid. It’s not like they’re dropping water. Tell us what it was like when they’re dropping that THICK, thick liquid near you.
Denise Roggio: It.. yea… it’s VERY thick. It leaves a stain… TRUST me… it leaves a stain on the hills and on the buildings for many, many months. It took several months, and rains, to get rid of traces of slurry the LAST time they did that. It is… it looks like… you can’t see though it. It’s just a curtain of red. And… it… it’s HUGE. It’s HUMONGOUS. You know… it reminds me of those large Ha… Haboob walls that you get in Phoenix when you have a sandstorm. A very… a very THICK… and… and I know it IS liquid but, honestly, it doesn’t LOOK like liquid when it’s falling.
News Anchor 2: And it can have large chunks in it, I know. That was one of the things when I’ve been on firelines before they’ve always said, you know, be OUT of the way at any place where there can be slurry… because it CAN have chunks that… if it lands on a car it could damage it. It is exceptionally heavy.
Denise Roggio: Oh yea. Yes. I heard that.
News Anchor 1: And also it contains, a lot of the times, fertilizer to try and get the regrowth going. Ah… Denise Roggio… thank you so much. You are, of course, first and foremost a Yarnell resident as well as a member of the fire department up there. Your insight on this has been incredible, we appreciate that. Please stay safe for us and thank you for all that you’ve done for us so far.
Denise Roggio: Thank you. Thanks for contacting me.
Phone interview with Denise Roggio ends at +7:44 into the video ( 6:36 PM on the TV screen ).
———————————————————————————————–
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8RVyGdxbs15akdwZG1yam9fejQ&usp=sharing
I AM MOVING SONNY’S CELL PICS TO THAT OLD LINK AND I WILL ADD LOCALS ACCOUNTS OVER TIME TO SAME AREA- IT IS THE TENDERFOOT FIRE FILE-
ugh. I am torn. I have someone that innocently is sharing to me- let me run it by you via email WWTKTT being you have been helping me on origin… and I know I am up against the time I met someone Donut knows and I wanted to “blllaaaabbbb” but then I saw the innocence of woman sharing on Donut so I was like I feel now— I know you will know how to weed it out—let me go there.
MY REPLIES ARE IN CAPS BELOW—
I am going to place some incoming information in this way because it may mean something to another local as they read it—this is information I was shown and I hope it leads to more details:
Date: Jun 19, 2016 7:26 PM
I had registered for the reverse 911 code red. Received email, text and phone call, for notice, preevac and evac. If people did not do that they won’t get a call. Who would call? There isn’t personal available to do so. Please tell everyone you speak with to do code red.
MY REPLY: SOME WHO WERE ON THE LIST DID NOT GET NOTIFIED- NOT FULL PROOF-
————————————————————————————-
Yarnell was on this quickly,
MY REPLY: QUICKLY YES BUT NOT PROPERLY AND FOR THAT FOIAS AND FURTHER LOOKING INTO IT IS CRUCIAL TO MANY AFFECTED BY IT- AND HOW ABOUT THE MCKIDDIES— ???
—————————————————————————————–
call came in at 3:15. cpt John called for every resource available, immediately. Congress, pv were quickly up here.(theres an issue you should look into, the status of their truck.)
MY REPLY: FURTHER NEEDS CLARIFICATION- NO REPLY THERE YET.
Water was being dumped from Helicopters and small planes.
MY REPLY: REMEMBER THIS EVERYONE THEY ARE SPENDING MILLIONS OF OUR TAXPAYING DOLLARS ON THE FIRE THEY BEGAN AS A BURNOUT OPERATION BECAUSE EYEWITNESS STATED THE ORIGIN WAS NOT A PART OF THE PLANES AND HELICOPTERS DUMPING—I WILL AGAIN DIG INTO THIS AREA TOO-
————————————————————————————–
blm were on it as fast as they could get here
MY REPLY: I SAW THEM- ALSO HAVE MANY EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS THERE.
..I’d quess by 3:45 from what I could tell. We lost power at 4ish.one code call came at 4:20 the evac call came at 6:01.
MY REPLY: SONNY NOTICED HIS ELECTRIC OUT AFTER 5:15PM. DOLLAR GENERAL STORE CARRIE SAID THEY CLOSED THE DOORS AT 5PM BECAUSE ELECTRIC JUST WENT OUT SO MAYBE THE ELECTRIC WENT OUT DIFFERENT SPOTS IN YARNELL DIFFERENT TIMES. ????
I was coming in from Prescott when I got first code call reg. Fire. I didn’t answer cause I was driving. Then saw fire from PV and was being passed by several Blm vehicles. Lots of ” shit, shit, shit”!!!!
Left hill at 6:20. Slurry planes were already on it and clearing/break crews were also on perimeter on the west side of fire by $ store. Watched from Arrowhead in congress. They lost internet there, no TV or credit card transaction available.. Communications were effected, police weren’t getting reports at road blocks. Responders had use of vehicle radios. I kept up with folks via Facebook that were left here in town.
water guy Fletch on it as far as water metering, and identifying lines, called for tank protection. If those went there’d be no water to fight the fire. So it was a priority.fire fighters depended on that Water stand pipe to fill the tankers.
I couldn’t believe how fast and how many resources were here. AL the hoopla aside, they really did a fantastic job directing it away, with help of winds. MY REPLY: I DISAGREE- THE PERSON WHO DID INITIAL ATTACK MAY IT BE FROM A STRUCTURAL PROTECTION WITHIN CITY LIMITS OR FROM A WILDLAND BURNOUT OPERATION THEY DID NOT FACTOR WEATHER WIND AND TERRAIN AND AGAIN REMEMBER THE TOWN PEOPLE KEEP HEARING IN MEDIA ABOUT THIS FIRE BREAK…AND THE ONLY THING AS THE DESERT WALKER I SAW WAS THE DIRT ROAD TO THE PROPERTIES ON TOP OF THE ANTELOPE PEAK BUT NOTHING ON CREST WAY AND SATELLITE IMAGERY PROVES THAT PLUS I HIKE IT AND I PROVE IT.
Still if you could see it you’d know how easily things could have been different for the hill on east side. I watched on and off for 2 hours between packing, helping move important stuff out of YWIA office and trying to get more info and sharing with neighbors.
Glad all is safe.
Folks need to pick up their sand bags at presby church. Please share that info. They are responsible for protecting their own homes from flooding. Get flood insurance too.
Date: Jun 19, 2016 8:16 PM
Oh and descrepency could be dependent on who called it in and where it actually took place. Sometimes smoke is seen but not actual source when call is made. Unless you have actual initial witness available to verify what was seen to prompt call you won’t know. I believe cause is still under investigation. WE DO HAVE AT THE FIRE EDGE EYEWITNESS WHICH SAYS A COUNTY PERSON WAS PRESENT AND SO I HAVE FOIA IN ON IT-
Date: Jun 19, 2016 8:32 PM
Wouldn’t cpt John be the best eyewitness for start since he was there? Sure he reported and it is as so filed.
Sure you will learn a lot. Suspicions are that there have been a few fires along there recently.
IF ANYTHING ABOVE IS DIFFERENT THAN YOUR ACCOUNT OR YOU WANT TO ADD MORE PLEASE EMAIL ME AT [email protected] OR WANT TO MEET IN PERSON 480-280-5813. THANK YOU. I THINK EVERY ACCOUNT MATTERS ON LAST FIRE AND THIS FIRE TOO- TO SNAIL MAIL ME INFORMATION YARNELL HIKERS PO BOX 42 YARNELL ARIZONA 85362
UPDATE on Brandi and Dan McKiddie—
I just had spoke to them and AT NO TIME WERE THEY NOTIFIED
I just interviewed them briefly and they want to be kept in the loop tight by me but in person or snail mail- no internet- I told them I will cc them as I know things and get the FOIAS in-
Again FOR THE RECORD-
This couple was not notified of this burning operation and they FIRST heard of account was local news showing their building on fire when away to tend another area and she was not happy and yes they can confirm they did have Harleys in the buildings and other stuff- I told Dan I only know Brandi from her old diner days but I told him I saw him this week outside and they saw me too but I was at that exact time passing a kidney stone and in pain so I did not stop- I officially have their contact information to keep them in the loop and I WILL- I explained I am sorry for their loss and the errors of how they handled the area surrounding their home which soon those are areas I am interviewing too- the areas around them…my medical massager massages one of them…so I have someone who can bring it up for me…but that should of not happened at all and it is the inexperience of the local volunteers that even a hotshot told me 6-8-16 and I am trying to google his name and information too—he said “maam, we got the volunteers off and are fixing the mistake and no more burning just using hand tools; see”…so that told me that guy knew it was done wrong too-
McKiddies are not internet people so I will share it as I get it but if any of you have anything to share I can always print it up and send it to them too- ok.
Let’s start standing up for the people not able.
🙂
Yarnell Hill vs. Tenderfoot fires
the title of a chapter of azcentral article
funny thing—when I get my foias and if it comes back the way its glazing—you may see some similarities versus differences—except no loss of lives and homes but you will hear from the heroes- the true ones as I go deeper and interview the fire line folks-
** MORE LIES ABOUT A DEFINED ‘FUEL BREAK’…
**
** AND A CLOSEUP PHOTO OF THE BURNED UP CELLTOWER
** EQUIPMENT BUILDING.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Yarnell fire cost: Over $4M
Published: Saturday, June 18, 2016, by Cindy Barks
http://m.dcourier.com/news/2016/jun/18/yarnell-fire-cost-over-4m/?templates=mobile
——————————————————————————
YARNELL — More than $4 million has gone into fighting Yarnell’s Tenderfoot Fire to date, and the number is expected to grow slightly in the coming days, says the incident commander ( RobRoy Williams ) for the firefighting effort.
Williams estimated the cost of the firefighting efforts so far at $4.1 million. That includes about 43 percent for aircraft support, 16 percent for camp support, 15 percent for equipment, 14 percent for crews, 9 percent for camp personnel, and 3 percent for line personnel.
While he did not expect the fire-containment cost to go up significantly, Williams said it would continue to rise slightly until the fire was completely contained.
The total includes only fire-containment efforts, and NOT property damage, Williams said. But, he pointed out, property damage was limited mostly to two minor buildings — a storage shed at a home on the east side of Highway 89, and a shed at a communications tower.
The “upper hand” was achieved largely through fire-break work that had taken place in the years since the devastating Yarnell Hill Fire in June 2013.
Arizona State Forestry Public Affairs and Legislative Officer Bill Boyd pointed out that State Forestry administered a number of grants that had helped to create a fuel break, as well as removing slash and small trees, on the east side of Yarnell.
The Yarnell Fire District signed grant agreements in 2014 to carry out the projects.
Russell Shumate, Northwest District Manager for Arizona State Forestry, explained that the fire breaks allowed the crews to “make a stand” in their firefighting efforts.
——————————————————————————
So.. amidst the LIES about some kind of definitive and comprehensive ‘fuel break’
having been constructed on the EAST side of Yarnell ( along the backs of the homes on
Crest Way )… they are now ‘dialing back’ to only TWO structures burned up.
1. The garage + workshop on the MCKIDDIE property.
2. The equipment building at the foot of the Celltowers up on Antelope Peak.
BOTH of these were a direct result of the ‘manual burnouts’ that were conducted, and NOT a direct result of anything associated with the ACTUAL ‘Tenderfoot Fire’.
Here is a direct Link to ABC15 photo of celltower damage posted on their Twitter feed at 7:16 AM on the morning of June 9, 2016…
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckg9ooWWkAACffI.jpg
It got TOASTED… fer sure… as those ‘manual ignitions’ raced up the WEST side of ‘Y’ Mountain and reached Antelope Peak ( as seen in various photos and videos ).
I have spent a lot of time inside those same kinds of ‘equipment sheds’ at the base of these kinds of cell towers… and I am very familiar with the ‘equipment’ that is actually contained inside them.
That photo COULD easily represent up to a MILLION dollars in damages, all by itself.
Depends how much of the electronics inside could be ‘salvaged’.
Happy Father’s Day to all the Dads here. The Republic did a story on how the Tenderfoot fire was handled so much better than the Yarnell Hill Fire because they heeded the firefighter lessons learned. Sadly, the reporter did not heed the reporter lessons learned, to wit, #1, always question the local hybrid firefighters. From the article:
Within minutes of ignition, a full-on suppression effort was being organized.
Whitney said a firebreak, scraped over the past 18 months, marked the line of defense. As flames moved in and torched several outbuildings, engine companies used the buffer while a giant DC-10 aerial tanker unleashed red retardant. Helicopters and hotshots joined the assault. Hundreds of residents fled, but not in chaos.
Really makes it sound like that fire just jumped right over from the origin to threaten those garages, eh? Did they really cut that buffer between the houses and the garages? Sure sounds like it…
Ben Palm, chief of the Yarnell Fire Department, said the brush had been “so thick, you literally could not walk through it.” With a state grant, the department and volunteers cleared about 8 acres, creating a 100-foot swath. When the Tenderfoot Fire erupted, some of most threatened evacuees had just minutes to grab essential belongings and flee.
“The fire was right next to the houses,” Palm said, “but because we put a barrier there, we were able to keep the heat and burning from off the houses, which saved them.”
Palm noted that defensible space was a key lesson from the 2013 fire, which targeted houses surrounded by brush and trees. Now, many residents keep vegetation in check. “I realized that if we didn’t do something then, when another fire came back, it would be the same thing,” he added. “It puts a smile on my face that we were able to save the homes.”
Yup, Ben thought that up all by his own self. Smart guy. Yarnell is lucky to have him. Is the video of the close call still online, or have TPTB suppressed it already?
ugh muzzy
I don’t dislike or have any true opinion on the guy- don’t know him just know firefighters came to me and asked how is it possible he was just placed into position 10/13 with no job posted for BEST qualified and at time it was told to us he was just emt…so it was his team and his locals that came to us–at post office or us walking down the street to senior center so THAT SAYS SOMETHING, right?
That is true time events and I have no agenda or angle on the fella just what has happened—
HOWEVER- the people coming to us are the ones who need to be looked at for agendas or angles—
we have always been the messenger in this-
(I resent the idea that people would blame the messenger for the message, rather than looking at the content of the message itself. Anita Hill)
(I always want to be a messenger, a person that, you know, that’s not afraid to pass on wisdom. Mary J. Blige)
DID YOU SEE THAT SHAWNA- Mary J. Blige 🙂
Joy,
I admire your fortitude. A lesser person would have folded long ago. Your devotion to your community and to the true WLFFs is admirable. You are a warrior!
BTW, I don’t have a like/dislike opinion of any of these guys. Those FFs who could have been entrapped by the burnout or backfire or whatever it was at the garage were not showing good judgement or training. Whoever gave them the keys to that truck and sent them up there would have been responsible. We don’t know yet who set the fires and who was actually supervising the FFs in the field, but It sounds like Ben wants us to think it was him. If Ben wants to take credit, he should also take responsibility.
Then Ben Palm can take full credit for THIS…
( Yes… that is the MCKIDDIE garage + workshop there on the LEFT side of the photo, about to be burned to the ground ( in the next 8 minutes ) by this ‘manual ignition’… )
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckd7RITWUAAX9KH.jpg
And if anyone tries to say that is some kind of photo of the actual ORIGIN of the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’… they are also LYING.
Denise Roggio took that photo just before 5:06 PM, when they were just beginning all the ‘manual ignitions’ all along ‘Crest Way’.
The FIRST reports of the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ supposedly came in via 911 as early as 2 and 1/2 hours before this photo was taken… in the 2:30 to 2:45 PM timeframe.
The original announcement of the Fire on the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Facebook page said the fire was reported to have STARTED out along ‘Old Stage Coach Road’… which is 1,8 2 miles ( almost TWO MILES ) to the SOUTHWEST of where that photo was taken on Crest Way.
‘Mina Road’ turns INTO ‘Old Stage Coach Road’… but not until 1.82 miles southwest of Yarnell and almost to the ‘Stanton’ community.
And… in addition to the initial Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office press release… Yarnell Fire Department Administrator Denise Roggio CONFIRMED, in a live-on-the-air phone interview with TV station CBS5… that the calls that were coming into the Yarnell Fire Station that afternoon ( while she was THERE ) were reporting the same ‘origin’ for the fire as down in the ‘Stanton; area… where ‘Mina Road’ turns into ‘Old Stagecoach Road’.
Denise Roggios said ( quote )…
———————————————————————-
I WORK for the (Yarnell) Fire Department. I’m the Administrator… and our guys got a call and, of course, being IN the office, I was privy to that there was a wildfire… ah… had been started between Mina Road and Stanton. And so… ah… in my brain that was WAY down the hill.
———————————————————————-
NOTE: The location being described by Roggio ( the area between where Mina Road turns into ‘Old Stagecoach Road’ down near the ‘Stanton’ area ) is 1.82 MILES ( almost TWO miles ) southeast of the town of Yarnell.
Here is a direct link to an online copy of this Denise Roggio on-the-air interview which took place at 6:29 PM, June 8, 2016…
http://www.cbs5az.com/clip/12502596/tenderfoot-fire-grows-to-at-least-300-acres
Muzzy said- You are a warrior!
MY REPLY- all these years I thought I was Lakota and it’s Irish/British as my main DNA that gives me this “warrior” mentality …now Sonny cannot say I don’t understand because I am not Irish….it was really like “what is the real story…I mean I just hung up with my grandma and she is in disbelief my results showed that—my mom was like “well…the french could run on my mom’s side…nothing firm and that’s the bullshit you see on these staff rides- nothing firm or spot on…just a bunch of “oh, ok.. it is what it is because that is what Karel fed us and Shawna too …when you just learn it you feel your life was all on some others’ belief versus the purity of WHAT IT IS—it sucks!”
Muzzy said– If Ben wants to take credit, he should also take responsibility.
MY REPLY- I have alot of FOIAS in on both fires and yes responsibility is my focus in what I am bringing to the plate—the pure information to properly assess it—
reply to wwtktt
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckd7RITWUAAX9KH.jpg
‘Mina Road’ turns INTO ‘Old Stage Coach Road’… but not until 1.82 miles southwest of Yarnell and almost to the ‘Stanton’ community.
MY REPLY- did you note the GREAT defensible space they keep reporting—the photo says it all…come to Sonny’s property and I can name off others properties in person and SEE what DEFENSIBLE SPACE is…and thank you for the mileage point posted wwtktt—this TENDERFOOT FIRE can be in the media as heroes and even make books and movies and stroke egos and earn promotions and maybe ONE DAY Chief Ben Paul will be our next Shawna running it nationally…you start somewhere as a hero—right
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Really makes it sound like that fire just jumped right over from the origin
>> to threaten those garages, eh?
Yep… and that is a total, complete LIE.
As I said before… do they actually TEACH Firefighters how to be such ‘good little LIARS’…
with some kind of actual ‘S’ course catalog class number… or does it all just come
naturally to them?
HERE is the photo that Yarnell Hill Fire Department Administrator Denise Loggio
posted to ABC15’s Twitter account at exactly 5:06 PM on the afternoon of June 8, 2016.
It shows EXACTLY where the fire was ‘started’ ( manually ) there in the ‘thick brush’
just south of the MCKIDDIE residence… that would then ( in her own words in an
on-camera interview ) just ‘take off rigth towards the MCKIDDIE residence’ and
burn their garage + workshop to the ground within 10 minutes.
Yes… that is the MCKIDDIE garage + workshop there on the LEFT side of the photo,
about to be burned to the ground by this ‘manual ignition’…
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ckd7RITWUAAX9KH.jpg
Someone just ‘waltzed’ into that thick brush there at the south end of Crest Way,
where the pavement ends and turns into a dirt road, and without even really checking
which way the wind was blowing or ‘prepping’ the MCKIDDIE property… started this
‘manual ignition’.
The actual center of that ‘manual ignition’ there ‘too close’ to the MCKIDDIE residence is…
34.216581, -112.748039
Whoever the IDIOT was that chose that spot to start that ignition should never be allowed
near a Wildland Fire situation again. Ever.
You can SEE in the distance that the ACTUAL ‘Tenderfoot’ fire was nowhere near
Yarnell, at this point in time ( right around 5:06 PM ).
You can also SEE in this photo that there had been NO CLEARING done whatsoever
there on that south end of Crest Way.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Did they really cut that buffer between the houses and the garages? Sure sounds like it…
Google Earth has ‘fresh’ satellite imagery for the EAST side of Yarnell on all the following dates…
06/19/2016
01/04/2015
05/14/2011
09/09/2010
04/01/2009
06/20/2007
06/28/1997
If you ‘loop’ these images and ‘watch the changes… there is absolutely no indication
of any kind of ‘buffer zone’ being created prior to the Tenderfoot fire.
Zero. Zip. Nada.
The only ‘changes’ you see in-between the images is the vegetation just continuing
to just grow and grow there, and get thicker and thicker, right along Crest Way and
the western slope of ‘Y’ mountain… as late as April of this year.
And even on the afternoon of the incident… as Helicopter ‘Sky 12’ arrived over Yarnell circa 6:00 PM and was filming everything these guys were doing… there is also NO indication of this ‘fire break’ or ‘buffer zone’ ANYWHERE on the ground. All you see on the ground are dozens of guys with drip torches still just ‘lighting up’ everything in sight on the EAST side of Yarnell. Yes… there were ‘roads’ ( leading to the water towers on the mountain slope and up to the celltowers )… but those ‘roads’ had been there for years and years.
All of these Firefighters ( and now the head of Arizona Forestry himself ) are LYING.
WTKTT,
Are you saying that the YFD took all that state grant money and never did anything with it until 3 hours after the fire started when they manually ignited the McKiddie garage?
Hmm, curiouser and couriouser!
Reply to Muzzy post June 19, 2016 at 3:53 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Are you saying that the YFD took all that state grant money
>> and never did anything with it until 3 hours after the fire
>> started when they manually ignited the McKiddie garage?
Yes.
There is NO EVIDENCE they actually ever did what they are now just SAYING they did… and the press and the public are eating that shit with spoons and lining up with their soup bowls raised up saying “Please sir… can we have some MORE?”.
I’m not saying they ( Chief Ben Palm and maybe Peeples Valley FD ) didn’t do SOMETHING with some/all of whatever taxpayer dollars were falling out of the sky and into their bank accounts… but I repeat… there is currently NO EVIDENCE ( that I can find ) of them doing anything even remotely resembling what they are now SAYING they did with that ‘money’.
And now even Arizona Forester Jeff Whitney appears to be LYING right along with the local yocals.
Someone ( anyone? ) please show me the PROOF that they did what they said with the money that was received.
I can’t find it ( anywhere ).
.
And there’s Alan Sinclair whose profuse praise for the prep done by the locals made it onto the inciweb reports. A mutual admiration society, or so it seems.
These guys aren’t just signing off on each other’s quals, they’re reinforcing each other’s non-actions as well. The message: when it comes to defensible borders: fake it ’til you make it (but try not to burn down the structures)!
wwtktt said:
If you ‘loop’ these images and ‘watch the changes… there is absolutely no indication
of any kind of ‘buffer zone’ being created prior to the Tenderfoot fire.
Zero. Zip. Nada.
MY REPLY- THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.
my point exactly as locals praise this chief as a hero for saving the town!
No, do you want to know where defensible space was done. I will tell you. Mrs. Flippen is noted locally for turning people into county for misc reasons and we have spoke about it here before—I like her and her family but that is facts and I went to county to confirm- and guess what –Parcel 203-14-093 came to assess their property and it was overwhelming so YFD did it for free their property- NOWHERE near Crest Way.
I am tired of the BULLSHIT of these people in authoritarian roles accepting praise/bonuses/promotions/grants given/etc and hero —he saved a town— wee hee — when the facts WILL roll in and you ask those homeowners on Crest Way or I will soon after health spell and I will get you more information— and interviews—
oh yeah and a spot on highway 89…let’s not forget that defensible space no where near structures-
I have foia request in on that area–I think000what the heck? How long is a prompt reply suppose to be allowed for them…other organizations are on it but not YFD or Congress FD yet—
Joy… they might actually come up with some kind of ‘list’ of what could be construed as ‘defensible space’ projects there in Yarnell… but there is still NO INDICATION ( even in Satellite imagery from just 2 months ago ) that they ever did any kind of deliberate and comprehensive ‘fuel break’ on the EAST side of town… as everyone and their uncle is claiming to the PRESS and the PUBLIC.
In some of the very OLD satellite imagery for Yarnell… there actually DID appear to be an obvious ‘fire break’ that had been constructed there on the WEST slope of ‘Y’ mountain many many YEARS ago… but as the satellite imagery progresses out of the 1990’s and into the 2000’s, it was NOT being maintained and you can see the dense vegetation just ‘swallow it up’ again until circa 2007 there was no longer any sign of it anymore…
…INCLUDING right up to April of 2016.
There is/was no sign of ANY comprehensive ‘fuel break’ on that EAST side of Yarnell whatsoever.
Happy Father’s Day 🙂
I learned what my 23andme is ,,,I was ALWAYS told I was 1/4 Sioux Indian (mom’s mom), 1/4 Italian (dad’s mom), 1/4 Dutch(dad’s dad), 1/4 Swedish(mom’s dad) and always got a hard time from Sonny because I could not understand the Irish ways and I am this:
Joy’s DNA results:
Neanderthal variants 319-The highest seen is 387 and most people do not go over 250. You have more Neanderthal variants than 96% of 23andMe customers.
(HENCE WHY I CRAVE PIONEERING..LIVING IN CAVES…HUNT TO EAT)
For the past 150 years, scientists have found bones belonging to an extinct population of ancient humans. These ancient humans are known as Neanderthals and were named after the site where their bones were first identified (Neander Valley, Germany). Neanderthals and modern humans share a common ancestor as well as many morphological and social traits, but differed in key respects. Over the past decade, genome sequencing has shed more light on the Neanderthal and our complicated relationship with them. The common ancestor of modern humans and Neanderthals is thought to be an extinct hominin named Homo heidelbergensis. The species inhabited much of Africa, Europe and probably Asia from at least 700,000 years ago until about 200,000 years ago. By about 200,000 years ago, the European Homo heidelbergensis population had evolved into what we refer to as Neanderthals. Contrary to the popular “caveman” stereotype, Neanderthals were not so unlike modern humans and possessed complex social behaviors. The most distinctive characteristics of Neanderthal remains are their wide, robust bodies, relatively short limbs, and projecting mid-faces.Homo heidelbergensis within Africa also continued to evolve, eventually becoming anatomically-modern humans. The oldest fossils that can be ascribed to anatomically-modern humans come from a site in Ethiopia that dates to 195,000 years ago.Around 60,000 years ago, modern humans started to explore beyond Africa, encountering and interbreeding with their Neanderthal neighbors. Skeletal remains found in the Manot Cave in Israel and elsewhere suggest that these two groups likely interbred in the Middle East or Europe. Their descendants radiated out across Europe, Asia, Australia and eventually the Americas. Neanderthal ancestry in present-day populations is largely derived from these ancient migrations and interbreeding events. Non-African populations have Neanderthal ancestry amounting to about 1-2% of their genomes. With few exceptions, Sub-Saharan African populations have virtually no Neanderthal ancestry.
Finnish
0.0%
Broadly Northwestern European
27.3%
Southern European
8.4%
Italian
2.8%
Balkan
1.1%
Sardinian
0.0%
Iberian
0.0%
Broadly Southern European
4.4%
Eastern European
0.0%
Ashkenazi
0.0%
Broadly European
2.3%
Japanese
0.0%
Korean
0.0%
Yakut
0.0%
Mongolian
0.0%
Chinese
0.0%
Broadly East Asian
0.0%
Southeast Asian
0.0%
Native American
0.0%
Broadly East Asian & Native American
0.0%
North African
< 0.1%
Middle Eastern
0.0%
Broadly Middle Eastern & North African
< 0.1%
Broadly Oceanian
0.0%
So all those early years as adrenaline junkie- my DNA states I am:
Joy, your fast-twitch muscle fibers likely have the alpha-actinin-3 protein.
You are a Sprinter/power muscle type.
Time for me to find a trainer :)…boxing preferred versus running…because changing the way they do fires is a fight and I am in it for the full term to make sure they do just that and maybe Shawnee can be a game changer "finally" now that she reached the TOP…."pretty please"
Joy, your maternal haplogroup is N1b1.
Maternal haplogroups are families of mitochondrial DNA types that all trace back to a single mutation at a specific place and time. By looking at the geographic distribution of mtDNA types, we learn how our ancient female ancestors migrated throughout the world.
N1b1 is a subgroup of N1b, which branches from N.
Haplogroup
N1bAge
less than 60,000 yearsRegion
Eastern Europe, Near East, North Africa
Your Haplogroups are determined based on the evolution of specific genetic variants.
Your haplogroups are a clue to your past. The framework that is used to identify different haplogroups, and how they relate, is called a phylogenetic tree. Your maternal haplogroup can be traced through your mitochondrial DNA, and your paternal haplogroup through your Y-chromosome (or if you are a woman, by matching your father or brother's DNA). Each major branch of each tree is named with a letter, and deeper branches within the tree are labeled with numbers and letters to note their relationship to one another. Each branch is thousands or tens of thousands of years old. Because members of a branch tend to be found in the same region of the world, your haplogroup assignment identifies your deep ancestry.
Haplogroup N1b Migration
Origin: Haplogroup N1b originated in southwestern Asia and remains concentrated there today. However one branch of the haplogroup, N1b2, was carried to central and eastern Europe by the Jewish diaspora.
Highlight: It is likely that every Ashkenazi Jew with mitochondrial DNA from N1b may have inherited it from a single woman who lived less than 2,000 years ago.
I wonder about a report that says some people cannot and some can—I can:
"Joy, you are likely to be able to smell the asparagus metabolite in your pee."
really?
Like I care to know???
this is true because on the BRAT diet and magnesium cit-rate with water diet I do not this to be accurate:
" You are likely to prefer salty or savory snacks." "Stressful situations might affect appetite and food preference. While it's not clear whether women eat more and prefer more sweet foods in response to stress" "you prefer sweet to salty than to bitter foods." (REALLY??? I WOULD THINK ALOT OF US PREFER NON BITTER FOODS???)–calculated using a curated model.
From my spit they can state this: "Joy, you are likely to have lighter skin."
I did as a kid have freckles and I bleached them out every summer with lemons and creams-
and my dna says:
"You are likely to have a lot of freckles somewhere on your body." ( I ONCE DID BUT LESS NOWADAYS)
Skin Pigmentation –
96% of customers who are genetically similar to you have fair to beige skin."
Very fair
39%
Moderately fair
32%
Light beige
25%
Olive
3%
Light brown
1%
Dark brown
< 1%
Joy, you are likely to sneeze when suddenly exposed to bright sunlight.
it pinned my hair color down by spit because my hair color is this:
Black
2%
Dark brown
44%
54%
Light
Light brown
35%
Dark blond
16%
Light blond
3%
Your genetic likelihood
Red hair
5%
by spit it even pinned my hair texture down:
Your genetic likelihood
Big curls
13%
Small curls
7%
Very tight curls
1%
79%
Straight or wavy
Wavy
26%
Slightly wavy
39%
Straight
14%
this is true too:
Joy, you are likely to have been born with little or no hair.
My spit showed:
Your genetic likelihood
98%
Lighter eyes
Blue
51%
Greenish blue
21%
Green
17%
Light hazel
9%
Dark hazel
2%
Light brown
< 1%
Dark brown
< 1%
it was right on this too:
Joy, you are likely to have detached earlobes
so far the only thing it said maybe on was widow's peak and I do have one but its going away as I get older or my face is fatter/rounder ???
Sonny when I began this purchase thought GIMMICK but after he reviewed all the pages he just ordered one himself with my referral link:
http://refer.23andme.com/v2/share/6297953341867117793
So my point in sharing the dna results is because ALL MY LIFE I was TOLD I was 1/4 Sioux Indian (mom’s mom), 1/4 Italian (dad’s mom), 1/4 Dutch(dad’s dad), 1/4 Swedish(mom’s dad) (AKA STAFF RIDE–PARALLEL) and in reality I am not those at all but that is what some person wanted my life line to BELIEVE for our life line ( AKA STAFF RIDE) but it was not reality as what it IS and so people like the KARELS/DUDLEYS/SHAWNEES are really HURTING the current and future of firefighting- by ALLOWING “missing elements” to remain AS IS even though the DNA ( aka Gary Olson/Dr Ted Putnam/Joy Collura/Sonny Gilligan/Many Others provided the pure truth) and so if you do not TELL the story with TRUTH than all you got are books on a shelf feeding egos and movies making people wealthier but it DOES NOT and I repeat DOES NOT show these men and ALL fallen the TRUTH- You may think you will do your Hollywood makeover but the truth is what happened on the Weavers and the factors that led to it— SO IT CHEESE AND CRACKER AKA F’IN DOES NOT HAPPEN AGAIN—
Stop the egos and stop the NARRATIVES!
And for Chief Ben Palm- still NO REPLY yet CYFD replied already so strange my own LOCAL area is not doing their job right in Congress and Yarnell on FOIA requests—
just saying…
Chief Ben refused Gary—why?
yet a person who did not like the GMHS did go through via chief Ben Palm back in July 2013 and so here is Gary trying to make sense of it and then there is the man who disliked them and made it right to the fence-
go figure Gary-
It is such a crazy bullshit that any local fire comes from this day forward I am going to FOIA the shit out of them—and always make it known I am here.
My DNA is not what I thought- YES I am shocked because I went all these years with a certain belief like these current firefighters have their belief but I hope they GET it may not really BE what they were taught just like me—
RESEARCH always.
EDUCATE always.
KNOWLEDGE always.
SOURCE it always.
Joy Collura
100%
European
99.9%
Middle Eastern & North African
0.1%
European
99.9%
Northwestern European
89.2%
British & Irish
45.8%
French & German
11.2%
Scandinavian
4.9%
Broadly Northwestern European
27.3%
Southern European
8.4%
Italian
2.8%
Balkan
1.1%
Broadly Southern European
4.4%
Broadly European
2.3%
Does it tell me something about how “primitive” I am. Certainly not.
Can it tell really tell me something useful. Maybe…
The Neanderthal percentage is – like so many of the other things on 23andme – a tool that is still in its infancy. A funny number to talk about at parties, but without any real value. In truth, it is trivial if I got the gene from Neanderthals- if I got it down the line from the common ancestor of Neanderthals and humans, what we want to know is how do my SNPs make me different from others that do not have these SNPs. What would be interesting is to specifically name the genes which have the Neanderthal SNPs and suggest how these might have give us particular traits compared to other variants. Perhaps this will be available in future…
Joy…so where is Sonny? Is he OK?
He has been doing defensible space lately even on here 🙂
Oh…OK…I’m glad he’s still tickin’.
barely
http://beyond12step.co/aboutmarlene/
this was the place I said meditations is at on Tuesday 1pm and Saturdays ay 11:30am. Blue Barn in Yarnell. Great group of men and women.
I went because I went to get FOIA form in person at YFD — the staff person had no idea what I was asking for and than walks in ol time resident who left to CO and now is back— in just a short time- a couple weeks she already organized neat little events and brought togetherness in a divided area and I went so I can catch up with her—
I never did hear from YFD even snail mailed usps tracking 9114999944314838291316 so you the world can see how long the foia process can take but mind you Congress Fire Dept made up their own kind of foia form and I am not gonna sign it- seems not legal as it is—for CYFD I sent that 6-15-16 1:55pm usps 9114999944314838291330 and it was delivered 6-16-16 10:31am—
and no updates on Forestry usps 9114999944314838290814where they got it 6-9-16 11:33am with a ten dollar usps money order with a sase and blank cds. YCSO usps 9114999944314838291156 got theirs 6-16-16 7:24am and Fire Interagency usps 9114999944314838290807 and Az Dispatch Deer Valley and Prescott usps 9114999944314838290821 and City of Prescott usps 9114999944314838290838 and others I did ask for request online- and so on…this was what I just checked updates for—nada…
I want to make a point that there has to be “something” to it, Gary because I met many firefighters and they all seem to have a good outlook on Shawna…so maybe over the years she just understood the system for what it was and it was just a job for her—it would be nice to actually hear her intentions- and here she is speaking on Holly’s page:
https://www.facebook.com/SafetyMattersWildlandFirefighterForum/
which also has link to Ongoing research on the Yarnell Hill Fire, from John Maclean , Holly Neill, Alan Sinclair.
http://johnmacleanbooks.com/yarnell/
“What we include here are reports of research undertaken to address several specific questions that remained after — or grew out of — the two official reports. We have looked into many questions big and small about the fire, and are continuing with these efforts. One report, by Alan Sinclair, is his clarification of a PowerPoint presentation he gave at a meeting of the Central Arizona Wildland Response Team (CAWRT) in March 2016 in Phoenix. Sinclair is a Type 2 Incident Commander. Three years to the month after the Yarnell Hill Fire, another fire, the Tenderfoot Fire, ignited in Yarnell, and Sinclair became the incident commander. The other report, by Holly, describes her research on Granite Mountain’s escape route, and her discovery of audio records in December 2013 that contradict the SAIR claim about a “33-minute communications gap” by the Granite Mountain Hotshots — which if true amounted to serious negligence on their part, because it occurred after they left their safe position. Despite initial skepticism there is now general agreement that there was no 33-minute communications gap. Holly and Alan also report on a years-long effort that turned up previously overlooked physical evidence near the fatality site.
We offer here likely theories where appropriate, along with specific responses to the points we raise about the official inquiries. We have provided links to our raw data so that interested parties can form their own opinions. These reports of ours, I think, clearly show what it can take in time and effort to reconstruct a catastrophic event or fatal wildfire, and why it should be done.”
So good to see ya…check this out
http://m.dcourier.com/news/2016/jun/18/yarnell-fire-cost-over-4m/?templates=mobile
And I bet my investigation will be more direct n thorough so we can send the four million dollar bill to right area vs us the taxpayer…
Heh, because they lit a swath of ill-conceived ignitions that got out of control?????
MOAR FACEPALM!!!!!
After all this time… that’s all that Alan Sinclair and Holly Neill have to present?
And… after all this time… they are STILL getting the transcripts of the audio recordings WRONG?
Geez, Louise.
Example: They still have ( in THEIR transcript ) the ‘mystery man’ calling out to ‘Granite Mountain’ at 4:13 starting the callout with ‘Division Alpha’. That is CLEARLY not the case. His callout was…
“Granite Mountun ( ? Five? Fire? )… wuz yo stay-tus rat now?”
Ditto for MANY other parts of their ‘transcripts’.
It’s like they didn’t even really LISTEN to their OWN ‘enhanced versions’.
Holly Neill has now officially ‘backed off’ her original assertion that she was hearing Eric Marsh say “I’m at the house”… and that that somehow automatically meant ‘house’ was “The Boulder Springs Ranch” and ( follow the bouncing assumptions ) that it also meant Marsh had made it all the way there that afternoon before running back to die with the other 18.
But she has LEFT the word in her transcript, and not changed any of the other words she still things she is hearing. All she did was put parentheses around the word ( house ), instead of asserting it as ‘fact’ as in her previous transcript(s).
As for the photos of the ‘cut stobs’ we can now finally see… well… pretty questionable stuff.
The site of the deployment USED to be a ‘mining camp’… and there USED to be TWO maintained ROADS leading to it. One of them WAS right there following the same path where these stobs were all found, which pretty much followed the path of the dozer push itself out to the deployment site.
Unfortunately… after ALL this time and ALL of the people Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair had ACCESS to… there is nothing NEW here.
Extremely disappointing.
And ( of course ) no place to even leave any COMMENTS.
“The Yarnell Hill Fire
Ongoing research projects related to the disastrous Arizona fire of 2013 that killed 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew.
The PowerPoint included here was presented to the Central Arizona Wildland Response Team (CAWRT) in March, 2016, in Phoenix, Arizona, by Alan Sinclair, a Type 2 Incident Commander. The PowerPoint is based in part on the following research. The presentation was a collaborative effort between Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair.
“Moving Forward With New Information”
A Narrative for the PowerPoint Presentation
By Alan Sinclair
http://johnmacleanbooks.com/yarnell/sinclair.shtml
PowerPoint in HTML
http://johnmacleanbooks.com/yarnell/SinclairPowerPoint.html
OK I’m falling asleep and going t bed, but I don’t think Alan Sinclair is our ally.
And not one iota of ‘evidence’ that… with all of the people Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair had ( and have ) ‘access’ to… that they ever lifted one finger to try and IDENTIFY any of the ‘mystery voices’ in the recordings.
Nice work, folks. Thanks for nuthin’.
Joy, you said, “I met many firefighters and they all seem to have a good outlook on Shawna.” Didn’t you read what I wrote?
I said several times, in several different ways that I have a good outlook on Shawna. This isn’t about my outlook on her or anyone else’s. This is about what she did. I told you what she did. Now…why did she do it? I don’t really care…because it was wrong and both Dr. Putnam and I told her what she was doing was wrong.
You are free to make your own assessment. But here is something I want you to think about. Almost all of the circumstances behind why the Mormon Lake Hotshots died are IDENTICAL to the reasons why the Granite Mountain Hotshots died;
Darrell Willis told me that he and Eric Marsh were students of the Battlement Creek Fire. IF…there would have been a true and accurate account of why the Mormon Lake Hotshots died on the Battlement Creek Fire in that staff ride that was available between 2006 and 2013…would it have made a difference in whether the Granite Mountain Hotshots died?
I don’t know, but maybe it would have? But in any case, I think a staff ride telling the truth about why the Mormon Lake Hotshots died would be better than one constructed of lies..wouldn’t you agree?
This isn’t about whether Shawna is is good person or not. This is about whether Shawna created a staff ride based on facts that might have prevented the deaths of the Granite Mountain Crew since they died for the very same reasons as the Mormon Lake Crew 36 years earlier.. And it is about the next bunch of hotshots who may die because the truth still hasn’t been told about the Battlement Creek Fire or the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Did you read what I wrote…many had good outlook yet they walked away learning how the system works or don’t work and she did a disservice so long ago and that teaches young firefighters being true does not get you to nationals…if you read me right I did say my assessment complimented you…
Yes, I did get that eventually out of what you were saying, but at the same time, it seems you were mounting a defense for her based on the good things so many others say about her?
I am very well aware of the reputation she has. I don’t think it is too strong of a statement to say that she is BELOVED by those who have worked for her, with her and have supervised her.
I am the dirty rotten low down dog in this fight. I am pretty sure I am really pissing a lot of wildland firefighters off at every level in this great nation of ours by questioning and or challenging what Shawna Legarza has done in her career. Anything she has done…ever.
And I did order her book from Amazon and read it several years ago.
Yes Gary but did you get her book on clearance or full price?
I paid top dollar! I wanted to read it because I liked her so much and she gave me her San Juan Hotshot hat which kept me from getting sunstroke from my exposed solar panel on the Battlement Creek Staff Ride because I forgot to bring a hat..
Actually…I think I know what else you were trying to say which I agree with and so here is another take on what is motivating Shawna, because I don’t believe she is motivated by money or power.
I actually think she is motivated by her desire to improve the USFS fire program and she believes the best way she can do that is by working with the bastards from the inside to make incremental changes rather than go out with a bang by standing on principle. In other words,
I believe she has learned how to pick her fights and the telling the truth about the Battlement Creek Fire for that staff ride did not meet her criteria, which of course I disagree with.
But you can’t argue with success and she is running the Washington D.C. office in her area of expertise, whereas I only worked the Washington D.C office in my area of expertise because I stood on principle too often and too early in my career.
Gary said-I believe she has learned how to pick her fights and the telling the truth about the Battlement Creek Fire for that staff ride did not meet her criteria, which of course I disagree with
MY REPLY- I 100% agree what she did back here- http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/library_staff_ride10.html is why we are HERE TODAY in a situation— it was wrong then and it is wrong now– she had plenty of time to write in her book you PAID FULL DOLLAR for to make it right and place an addendum to the that staff ride in HER book but she follows a system that pays her bills and eventually just will keep KILLING more men and women on the line—
Go Shawna!
oh-who!
My kind of woman.
Anyways Gary- If I want to learn about fire terminology or history I opt to go to you, Bob Powers, Dr Ted Putnam, Wayne Neill but no Dudleys/Karels/Shawna Legarza for me
I know Bob—if you follow the LCES and 10&18 than you are alive but I have spoken just too many firefighters who tell me how it rolls on the inside and Shawna’s career history is number one proof of it– she has never came public and said that Gary or Ted gave her information DURING their investigation or after—just always remained that what the report said in which she was a part of the team to make and she could of later in her book or an article said the FACTS that people did give her crucial information and she opted to not engage—answer me this than—WHY don’t you engage on TRUTH?
And the biggest reason why some Mormon Lake Hotshots died and almost all of the Granite Mountain Hotshots died, is because of the HUBRIS of their respective crew bosses and both were known for exhibiting this behavior in how they approached their assignments..
And just to cut to the chase, both crews were run by egotistical crew bosses who had a chip on their shoulder and were driven to prove their crew was better than anyone else’s by taking unacceptable risks.
In addition, there are some eerie similarities as to why the El Cariso Hotshots died on the Loop Fire as I have said many times before on this thread.
I personally think the South Canyon Fire and the deaths of an entire squad of Prineville Hotshots was a one-off and not related to the other three hotshot fatality fires.
Bob Powers says
JUNE 18, 2016 AT 12:21 PM
Now I am really confused Gary
Shawna Legarza Led a Staff Ride?
When was that? She Started in 1989 so when was the Ride?
So She along with others were involved in the Staff ride some 20 years latter. From 1976 to 1989 she was not even working for the FEDERAL Government.
Remember what I have said A Staff Ride is a show me trip.
They do not always follow facts. So I take that for what it is.
She was not part of the investigation So I am Still open about her.
And I say,
Well…I will be more than happy to clear up any confusion you have…Bob.
The Battlement Creek Staff Ride was developed in 2006, in remembrance of the disaster which occurred in 1976 for the thirtieth year anniversary. I was still working at the time on the eighth floor of the Phelps Dodge Tower at One Central Avenue in Phoenix, Arizona, as…you guessed it, a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Sr. Special Agent) for the BLM Washington Office of Law Enforcement & Security.
I was approached by a number of individuals led by Shawna Legarza to participate as a member of the Battlement Creek Staff Ride Development Committee and I was asked to serve as a subject matter expert on the first staff ride itself to test out the newly developed staff ride. This happened because I was one of the two member burn out team that ignited the fire that killed three members of the Mormon Lake Burn out team and seriously burned a fourth member although he did survive, but I know there were days he wished he had not.
During the several months I was on the committee itself, I repeatedly got into into verbal arguments and confrontations with a select group of assholes who were all also former hotshot crew bosses from various agencies who were on the staff ride developmental committee and working in various high ranking fire jobs for several agencies with wildland firefighting responsibilities.
That staff ride was all done “in house”, without a high paid group of Marines who probably know a lot about being Marines, but don’t know shit from Shinola about wildland firefighting and Shawna was the chairperson and in charge of the staff ride development overall.
I know this is going to really surprise many of you who follow this thread, but my patience with that level of opposition in the face of my trying to tell them what they were doing was wrong…wore thin and I resigned from the committee itself with a flourish.
After that happened, one of my oldest and dearest friends who is a great deal like me because he is, wait for it…a former hotshot crew boss from the Coconino National Forest and I had lunch down the street from my office in Phoenix. He was in town to meet with the Chief of the U.S. Forest Service, where he was told that if he agreed to take the Deputy Director of Aviation and Fire Management for California and the Pacific Islands (R 5), he would be promoted into the director’s job there just as soon as the guy who was in it at that time was “encouraged” to retire.
Which all came to pass and is why I am really up to speed on Shawna’s old job because my buddy had the same job and I even visited him in San Francisco while he was in that position before he retired because that was to be his last job. There are not 6 degrees of separation in the USFS Fire; there is only one or two, even for guys who haven’t worked in fire for few decades. So…during that lunch, I got fired up and very passionate about my opposition to how the staff ride was being developed and I told my old friend exactly why I resigned from the staff ride developmental committee.
So anyway…still with me Bob? My buddy took it upon himself to make sure I participated in the staff ride because he thought I had some PTSD from my experience there and because he had been a close friend of the Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew Boss Tony Czack, because Tony used to work on the Blue Ridge Hotshots with my friend and they had both worked together on the Flagstaff Hotshots…one or two degrees, right?
And he had gone to Tony’s wedding shortly before Tony killed himself and his men because of his hubris AND my friend had been the Incident Commander (I think?) or at least on the Dude Fire Disaster fire team himself, he had some PTSD issues to deal with of his own. In fact, my friend had made a pilgrimage to the site of the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster a few years earlier and had built a special rock cairn in Tony’s memory which is still there today just as I wanted to do in memory of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew…but you know what happened with that idea for me. So…my friend, who as I am sure you can imagine can be very aggressive and persuasive made me promise that I would do whatever I could to make the true story of the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride part of WF history.
My old friend didn’t get the job Shawna used to have because he is either a grey or a gray person. He got it because he promised the Chief he would go in there and clean up that stagnated, in bred, dinosaur infested rotten good ole boy program in R-5 and clean house while dragging them into the twentieth century, so later director’s could have a fighting chance to drag them kicking and screaming even further…into the twenty first century. And my old buddy was just the guy to do it…and he was successful even though it was a pretty rough ride for him. I think the rougher the ride for him though, the more he likes them. He is after all…one of Bill Buck’s boys.
But forgive me…I digress. So my friend made me promise to do whatever I could pertaining to my participation in the Battlement Creek Staff Ride because he told me, “You owe it to the kids on the line today.” And so I agreed. He then went back to Boise and he went to work with his contacts, which was primarily the Director of Aviation and Fire Management for Region 2, the Rocky Mountain Region (which is where Shawna if FROM, there and Region 4, the Intermoutain Region and Region 10, Alaska, almost everywhere BUT Region 5).
And since Shawna Legarza was a mere hotshot crew boss (San Juan Hotshots) in Region 2 and a “can do” person…guess what? Yes…you are correct. The next thing I knew Shawna was emailing me and BEGGING me to still attend the Battlement Creek Staff Ride as a subject matter expert even though I has resigned in anger from her committee AND she promised me I could say anything I wanted about the truth of how the Mormon Lake Hotshots died during our negotiations for me to do just that. And…the Director of Aviation and Fire Management for Region 2 emailed me and assured me that both he and his office would do everything they could to make my participation in the staff ride a beneficial and a meaningful experience for me.
And so…based on my promise to my old friend (who had obviously called in some favors to get me back in favor) to do anything I could to help improve the chances that the mistakes of the Battlement Creek Fire would never be repeated and kill any more young firefighters on the line…I said to myself, “Fuck it, I am going for it and make it a Happy Jack Hotshot reunion and get drunk even if nothing else is accomplished.”
And so I told Shawna that I would indeed be honored to attend the Battlement Creek Fire Staff ride as a subject matter expert…IF she could arrange for my two old friends, one of whom was working as a 30 year USFS smokejumper veteran (and who had trained me as a hotshot sawyer) out of Missoula, Montana at the time and the other one (who had been my assistant crew boss for seven years) and was working as a USFS helicopter operations manager out of Region 10 in Southeast Alaska, could be there with me to back me up and tell the truth about what really happened on the Battlement Creek Fire because they had been there as well.
And those assholes on the committee had been so shitty to me, I wanted some back because of my LE training and influence. And the next thing I knew…all of us had tickets and plans to meet in Grand Junction, Colorado, and have a three man Happy Jack Hotshot reunion and set them straight about the Battlement Creek Fire. My two buddies where surprised when their bosses called them in and told them of their new assignment in Grand Junction, Colorado to participate as subject matter experts on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride.
Fade out…and fade back in to when I was having lunch with my buddies and Shawna and one of her squad bosses in Grand Junction and we were telling her how the cow ate the cabbage…and she told me very politely that she said I could say anything I wanted while I was there, but she had no intention of listening to me (or us). So we quickly reverted to Plan B which is the old hotshot standby…fuck it, let’s get drunk, relive the last fire, the next fire or some other fire and so we did.
And as interesting side note, I did not know Dr. Ted Putnam at the time and I was stunned there was someone at the Battlement Creek Staff Ride who was even more outspoken and aggressive than I was in telling the truth about what really happened on the Battlement Creek Fire.
And that is when I became a Dr. Ted Putnam disciple although I didn’t even meet him at the staff ride…it was a madhouse of wildland firefighters from a lot of federal, state, and county fire agencies including several from SoCal (Orange County and CDF etc.) at the mid to upper level fire management types with lots going on in a very short time frame. After all…our priority by then was to have a Happy Jack reunion and talk about the last fire, the next fire or some other fire. And we had a GREAT time and closed the bar in the hotel where the event was being held…thank you.
Any more questions…Bob?
And after that, everything was fine and dandy in my world (more or less) right up until June 30, 2013, when my world was rocked to it’s very core…and you know what I have been up to since then.
Oh..and one more thing.
The biggest reason that I didn’t introduce myself to Dr. Putnam at the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride in 2006 is because there were a lot of people there as I have said, more than 100?
And almost everybody wanted to meet Dr. Putnam and talk to him because he was/is a celebrity and highly respected in that kind of crowd…and I wasn’t.
My job there was to simply manage the “stand” and to answer questions in the arroyo from where the fatal backfire was ignited.
Than You Gary— That is much clearer.
Now I understand your Frustration.
Thank you…Bob. That was my most personal story…but then again, all of you know I don’t have any secrets from you…who are indeed among my closest friends and confidants. And even though I don’t have any secrets from you, I do have a few things I haven’t had the chance to tell you…yet.
I am working up to sharing the biggest one of all. That is what is called a “teaser” in the entertainment field. Do you want to know the biggest one of all…or should I save it for my book? And that is what they call a rhetorical question.
Reply to Bob Powers post on June 18, 2016 at 12:21 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Now I am really confused Gary
>>
>> Shawna Legarza Led a Staff Ride?
>>
>> When was that?
Bob… YOU were the one HAVING that conversation ( about Shawna ) with Gary in the previous chapter.
Gary Olson’s previous posts about Shawna Legarza… ( in the previous Chapter 21 )…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-335991
An excerpt from that posting…
——————————————————————————————-
Shawna was the point person who created the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride based on lies even though she was repeatedly told by both Dr. Ted Putnam and I that was exactly what she was doing, but she did continued to do it anyway. Did she get her current job because of her work on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride, yes…at least in part.
But more importantly, she showed her potential and willingness to serve as one of the “Grey People” and do whatever is necessary to promote the interests of the USFS over everything else which includes the safety of wildland firefighters. In fact, I am going to take this even one step further by alleging that Shawna is partly responsible for the deaths of the crew…and I can tell you why.
( More )
——————————————————————————————-
And another…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-334458
An excerpt from THAT posting…
——————————————————————————————-
So…just real quick because I have a tell-all book to write and I can’t keep fucking around with ole Bob even though it is kind of fun. Not challenging…but fun, kind of like shooting fish in a barrel. What was the big cover ups from the SAIT and the SAIR that the Battlement Creek Staff Ride is based on that Bob just quoted from in his all knowing way?
1. They (the SAIT) blamed the deaths of the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the firefighters themselves. The staff ride that Bob was just quoting as gospel said the two crews lacked “situational awareness” and neither crew know of the location of the other crew and violated Order #7.
2. They (the SAIT) blamed the Mormon Lake Hotshots for making the independent decision to leave their fire shelters in fire camp. That is actually what the Battlement Creek Staff Ride quotes as gospel. No one in Region 3, which included the Coconino were ever issued (except when we went to R-5 and we threw those fire shelters in the bushes as we left fire camp) or trained on fire shelters until the following year (1977) because of the Battlement Creek Fire.
So anyway…I learned that Shawna Legarza, who I met because she was the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride Development Coordinator while I was working as a subject matter expert (SME) on said committee, is now the Director of Aviation and Fire Management for Region 5 which is California and the Pacific Islands.
director’s job in the nation by far. So…Shawna was the San Juan Hotshot Crew Boss at the time she was coordinating the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride, which totally blew me away because that assignment would normally have been WAY over the pay grade and status a hotshot crew boss.
So…being the trained investigator I am, I immediately knew that Shawna had been handpicked to be somebody before long, but boy howdy…I had no idea she would end up in the biggest job in USFS FIRE. The WO guy is just a cheerleader who gets the funding from Congress but the power lies with the regional directors like Shawna.
So anyway…Shawna was a very impressive person and one kick ass hotshot crew boss and anyone could tell Shawna was a blue flame destined for great things after you spent some time with her. And she was obviously one of “those people” I was talking about in an earlier post who don’t have to worry about submitting an “application” for their next job…remember?
Shawna was great to me and I really liked her, she took me to lunch and she BOUGHT. I told her at lunch that the Battlement Creek Staff Ride had it all wrong and was basing all of the lessons learned on lies. And that as a result of that, the Battlement Creek Staff Ride would be a fictitious piece of work and would not reflect the actually lessons that needed to learned from the fire. I had told her the same thing several times in conference calls and in emails during the preceding months but she just politely ignored me.
Anyway…it was harder to politely ignore me while we were sitting across a table from one another eating lunch because I can be…very direct and sincere, even passionate about something I believe to be right. Is that a fair statement, you who are my closest friends and confidants?
So, while we were having a nice lunch, she listened once again very politely and then she said is a very neutral but firm voice…”You are entitled to say anything you want here, but I am going to continue to follow the Battlement Creek Fire Accident Investigation Report to develop the Battlement Creek Staff Ride.”
And she did. Shawna followed it to the letter even though she knew it was full of lies and so now the Battlement Creek Staff Ride is one big lie and it has now been teaching wildland firefighters the wrong lessons that should have been learned from the Battlement Creek Fire now since 2006. And by the way…Dr. Ted Putnam was there as an SME also and he told Shawna the very same things that I told her but at different times. Shawna ignored everything Dr. Putnam said as well.
BUT…Shawna now has the biggest, most important, prestigious, and influential job in USFS FIRE in the nation. So…tell me again Bob, just once more, who is FUCKED UP, you and USFS management or me? Please help me to understand.
——————————————————————————————-
Gary and his impressions as well as attacks we agreed to forget.
Shawna Followed the Investigation Report……That is what they have to do no changing or adlibbing for a Staff Ride. Its still a show me trip by the Script (Investigation Report)
I do not hold the same impression as Gary. Nor do I intend to go back to the Hate Gary has for the USFS. The Name at the time meant nothing to me.
Again people lay to much credit to Staff Rides I will leave it there.
Thanks for reprinting what I chose to FORGET.
Reply to Bob Powers post on June 18, 2016 at 2:55 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Shawna Followed the Investigation Report……That is what they
>> have to do no changing or adlibbing for a Staff Ride.
Who says?
YOU?
WHERE ( in any document or charter or even agency operations guide ) does it state THAT as some kind of FACT?
Shawna Legarza had a CHOICE. She CHOSE to “go along to get along”… ( rather than tell the TRUTH when given the opportunity to do so ) and now she’s the head grand-poobah mucky muck of the entire US Forestry Service.
I’m still waiting to hear ( officially ) what this ‘New USFS Director’ plans to DO with her tenure… but hopes are not high for anything other than ‘more of the same’.
No that is just the way it happens. Been there seen that.
I still have faith in old Hot Shots including Gary. She has seen the elephant and been through the Grinder.
I thought I had made a mistake when I wrote these earlier comments. But then I went into the research mode and got it straight.
And just in case any of you also wondering, which is correct…grey or gray, because at first, I thought I had misspelled “gray” by spelling it “grey”? This is because when I said Shawna Legarza must indeed be the greyest person in USFS Fire, the spell checker said that word should be spelled “grayest.” And here is what I found out.
“The answer is that the difference between them is entirely dialectal. There is no demonstrable difference of sense or function between them, meaning both words can be used interchangeably.
That’s right; using grey or gray is acceptable.”
So…as you can see, I did not make any mistakes in the above postings. I got everything exactly right on the money…Shawna Legarza IS the grayest person in USFS Fire while being a “grey” person at the same time and Bob Powers is STILL an apologist for them.
And as I have told Bob before, I do not hate the USFS. As an agency, the USFS is too big, too complex and too diverse to either love or hate. There are some things they do very well and some things they do very badly.
So…let me get this straight Bob. The USFS is MANDATED by law or regulations or policy or culture or tradition to create a staff ride which is a learning tool based on lies even though the only people who were part of the Battlement Creek Staff Ride development repeatedly TOLD Shawna Legarza and others in no uncertain term that she was creating a learning tool that would be a lie based on nothing but lies? Do I have that right?
I would REALLY like to see the new Director of USFS Aviation and Fire Management in front of a congressional hearing trying to explain that policy while asking for more money to train wildland firefighters in how to fight fire safely. As a matter of fact, I would pay money to watch that show. Maybe if this keeps up I eventually will?
And FYI for all of those out there who have inquiring minds, I am fully aware of the “pack test” to test the physical fitness of wildland firefighters to earn their pink cards and I stand by my opinion that this is the equivalent of “dumbing” down of the requirements because that test sounds easy to me. I think I could pass that one right now and I can assure you, I could neither pass the step test or the 1.5 mile run, but if I am wrong…please tell me.
Oh…and one more thing. I also stand by my offer to kiss the bare asses of both Tweedledee and Tweedledum IF they passed any physical fitness test to get their pink cards issued by Yarenll Hill Fire Chief Ben D’over.
I think I need to go on my website when I am bored and put some captions by those photos of all of them and the garage and workshop they burned down. I especially think the “firefighter” who is seen running away from the flames in what looks like a long sleeved t-shirt says it all.
I always like the quote by Sun Tzu that I often had to opportunity to use during my professional life, as opposed to what I am living now, my unprofessional life, “If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by.”
And then I’ll be damned. There went the body of the man (Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Ben D’over) who denied me permission to visit the site of the greatest blunder in wildland firefighting history to pay my respects to the crew…floating right by me.
As those of you who follow this thread know, I like to change the photos etc., on my website periodically as the situation demands because I use it like a Face Book page, but that is one page I am not going to change.
The photo of Ben D’over getting ready for his big video taped performance will remain right where it is for as long as I have that website. And I got a good deal so I paid for five years in advance. The only thing that will change, is the information I add to educate future visitors as to why those photos are on my website to begin with.
“The website is mightier than the sword!”
Webmaster
Oh..and one more thing WTKTT you ole trouble maker you…I thought Bob was lying as well when he said he never read what I said about Shawna.
Whoops, “So…let me get this straight Bob. The USFS is MANDATED by law or regulations or policy or culture or tradition to create a staff ride which is a learning tool based on lies even though the only people who were part of the Battlement Creek Staff Ride development WHO WERE ON THE FIRE repeatedly TOLD Shawna Legarza and others in no uncertain term that she was creating a learning tool that would be a lie based on nothing but lies? Do I have that right?”
Not That I could prove I have been on 3 none were perfect and none were totally right. Thus my saying ITS A SHOW ME TRIP. It makes the managers feel good and provides an outlet for Family and friends.
There is better training in the walk through when crews are by them selves to discuss what happened and truly look for the Facts.
How about the Staff ride is all candy and Ice Cream.
Todays are worse than the Past but none ever told the truth including the Rattle Snake Fire. I will leave it there. All the ones I am pissed at are dead and Gone.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 15, 2016 at 9:36 pm
>> Joy Collura said…
>>
>> wwtktt…let me ask what time that photo was you provided? Before 2pm?
Joy… I wasn’t ignoring this question. It just took a little research to ‘figure out’ exactly WHEN the following photograph you are asking about was actually taken…
http://media2.abc15.com/photo/2016/06/08/KNXV%20Tenderfoot%20Fire%20Air15%20F_1465435900780_39888670_ver1.0_640_480.jpg
Answer: Exactly 6:00:12 PM ( 12 seconds after 6:00 PM ), on June 8, 2016, from News Helicopter ‘Sky 12’ as it was approaching the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ from the EAST.
Photographs on NEWS sites ( especially on Facebook pages ) rarely have the EXIF metadata retained these days… so I had to look at the actual video footage from the ‘Sky 12’ Helicopter and find the ‘video frame’ from which that still photograph was taken.
So unless Arizona TV Channel 12 was totally LYING to their viewers when they said they were showing LIVE video footage from chopper ‘Sky 12’ on the TV screen… that is the exact time that photo ( video frame ) was taken.
Again… the smoke in the BACKGROUND is coming directly from those massive manual ignitions that were done for about a full MILE along ‘Crest Way’ on the EAST side of Yarnell.
The smoke in the FOREGROUND is from the remnants of the actual ORIGIN of the fire.
And you are RIGHT, Joy.
The fire DID appear to start ‘out of frame’ of this photo… to the SOUTH… and more down towards the SOUTH and near that ‘cattle guard’ and ‘Stanton’ area.
As seen in the photo above… the ORIGINAL fire had simply burned its way north from the ‘Stanton’ area ( since it started down there hours earlier, around 1:45 or 2:00 PM ) to the point where it is now seen in this photograph there (still) just on the EAST side of ‘Y’ Mountain.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> First off the very first time I heard for cattle guard area the first noted “origin” is 1:45pm
>> So what is the time on that photo you provided and yes both the hikers do feel
>> comfortable with Alan’s map.
Incident Commander Alan Sinclair’s indication of the ‘fire origin’ on his InciWeb fire perimeter maps ( that big red circle with the ‘X’ in it ) is complete horseshit.
Alan Sinclair has the fire ‘originating’ just a few hundred yards southwest of there the MCKIDDIE garage + workshop was burned to the ground by the idiots who started that ‘manual burn’ there at the southern end of Crest Way.
That’s nonsense.
Maybe Sinclair thought that by indicating the fire origin was within a few hundred yards southwest of the MCKIDDIE residence and property… he was ‘covering his ass’ for any inquiries about how the fireman who were doing those ‘manual burns’ on Crest Way managed to burn that garage and workshop down.
Whatever. The ‘origin’ he has on his maps is just simply TOTALLY WRONG.
Like… NOT EVEN CLOSE.
Even the original YCSO Sheriff’s report of the fire origin has it all the way out to the EAST on “Old Stage Coach Road”… which as you know… doesn’t even begin until “Mina Road” gets almost all the way to the ‘Stanton’ area.
From one of their own ‘press releases’ about the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’…
https://www.facebook.com/YavapaiCountySheriff/
———————————————————————————————
Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office on Facebook – June 9 at 10:18am ·
For Immediate Release from Yavapai Emergency Management
On the afternoon of June 8th, 2016 a wildfire began on the east side of HWY 89 off Old Stage ( Coach ) Road.
Yavapai County Emergency Operations Center was opened in support of the response with personnel on scene to coordinate requests.
Yarnell was evacuated and the shelter is currently open at the Yavapai College 1100 E. Sheldon Street, Prescott. Red Cross is running the shelter and Animal Disaster Services is on site to take small pets. Larger animals can be taken to the Prescott Rodeo Grounds at 840 Rodeo Drive, Prescott.
During the fire, power was lost in Yarnell. APS has been on scene throughout the night and as of this morning power has been restored to half of the community. Once the area is safe for personnel to enter, APS will be working on damaged poles.
———————————————————————————————
Key information from the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office ( who were the ones receiving any/all intial 911 calls about this fire )…
“On the afternoon of June 8th, 2016 a wildfire BEGAN on the east side of HWY 89 off Old Stage ( Coach ) Road.“
That is NOWHERE NEAR where IC Alan Sinclair has the ‘origin’ displayed on his little ‘Inciwev’ Fire map(s).
Busy drinking… Lots of water and my yummy magnesium citrate so I don’t know yet if its still barricaded to confirm your recent post on how the fire went because I was told it was a separate fire by cattle guard that did not travel towards Yarnell so without going out there to confirm..the next online research would be wind travel at 130-6pm over there because Sonny said it blew away from town so when I get stronger…pretty weak currently with messed up family who text me come see me while in town and in the history of my life I always go to them…my mom is the only sound one who gets life is give and take.. My mom knows my bday is July 1 but she sent pampering tools as I am weak now and as a kid I thought I had special abilities to fly…later became a stunt kid and teen but I used mathematics and logic vs just doing a stunt…I saw the art in it.
So my mom found the perfect card of a seven year old on her moms shoulders with her arms wide out like she is flying and the card says My dear Joy, whatever your dreams I will always have your back and wherever yo u go dear you always have my love and for you the possibilities are endless and as always I can’t wait to see what you do next…lots of love and healing sent your way…
It was a shakeable card that helped me with these Obama care copays…i had cut out her shakeable cards years ago telling her firmly i make my own way…im an adult…but hey any kid grown up who is not up to par..who wouldnt like a shakeable card.. to do the right things to regain balance and health and really the next thing for three years has been the yhf and now a second one…sure I will place the fees for the foias to bring information public but next thing is just getting to a point of strength and at times shelf the fire… If you read Congress Arizona public record form it says they can request me to pay an hourly salary if person researching and retrieval and I thought Arizona Law states fees can be asked but not at anytime for search or research of any records..did it change?
Than Congress Fire dept says that I Joy understand and agree that the Congress fire district does not guarantee the accuracy of data requested and hereby expressly disclaims any responsibility for the truth..lack of truth…validity… Invalidity. Accuracy or inaccurate… I further agree to hold the Congress fire district and its agents employees harmless for any claims causes action or other liability that may arise as a result these documents to me.
So my question.. Can they make me sign that to obtain their records… I thought state law avoided that and how come its required of me to sign it to get information that they state may be a lie upfront…
????????????
So again please be patient wwtktt as far as the very first reported fire’s location and time…going off first account eyewitness who said one cloud over by the cattle guard and then they all saw all of a sudden clouds by Yarnell and again separate from the cattle guard area fire and so give me time to get on the scene and trek it…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 18, 2016 at 8:56 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I will place the fees for the foias to bring information public but
>> next thing is just getting to a point of strength and at times shelf
>> the fire… If you read Congress Arizona public record form it says
>> they can request me to pay an hourly salary if person researching
>> and retrieval and I thought Arizona Law states fees can be asked
>> but not at anytime for search or research of any records..did it change?
No, Joy… The ‘Arizona Open Records Laws’ have NOT changed recently.
The ONLY way any Arizona taxpayer supported entity ( State, County, Municipal, Town, Public Board, Public Commission, etc. etc. ) can try to charge youan ‘hourly rate’ ( or ANY kind of fee other than copying costs ) for fulfilling an ‘Open Records Request’ is if the request is stated to be for a COMMERCIAL purpose.
And it’s a very narrow range of things that would even qualify any ‘Open Records’ request as a ‘Commercial’ one.
This is all covered in THIS Title/Section of Arizona Law.
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/39/00121-03.htm&Title=39&DocType=ARS
From just the TOP of that Title/Section of Arizona Law…
————————————————————————–
39-121.03. Request for copies, printouts or photographs; statement of purpose; commercial purpose as abuse of public record; determination by governor; civil penalty; definition
A. When a person requests copies, printouts or photographs of public records for a commercial purpose, the person shall provide a statement setting forth the commercial purpose for which the copies, printouts or photographs will be used. Upon being furnished the statement the custodian of such records may furnish reproductions, the charge for which shall include the following:
1. A portion of the cost to the public body for obtaining the original or copies of the documents, printouts or photographs.
2. A reasonable fee for the cost of time, materials, equipment and personnel in producing such reproduction.
3. The value of the reproduction on the commercial market as best determined by the public body.
————————————————————————–
The rest of the section actually ‘defines’ what could even be considered a ‘commercial purpose’.
YOUR request is NONE of those things.
>> Joy. A. Collura said.
>>
>> Than Congress Fire dept says that I Joy understand and agree that
>> the Congress fire district does not guarantee the accuracy of data
>> requested and hereby expressly disclaims any responsibility for
>> the truth..lack of truth…validity… Invalidity. Accuracy or inaccurate…
>> I further agree to hold the Congress fire district and its agents
>> employees harmless for any claims causes action or other
>> liability that may arise as a result these documents to me.
Yea… that’s all just ‘freedom from liability’ boiler-plate crap.
To be expected.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> So my question.. Can they make me sign that to obtain their
>> records… I thought state law avoided that and how come
>> its required of me to sign it to get information that they
>> state may be a lie upfront…
Nothing you can do about whether or not they are going to just send you BULLSHIT, or not. You won’t know until you see what they are deeming to call a valid ‘fulfillment’ of the Open Records request.
You can be almost CERTAIN they are going to ‘play games’ ( it is, after all, Arizona )… but the law says you can ‘appeal’ the results if you think they are obviously bullshitting you.
As for the FEES and them trying to get you to PAY an ‘hourly rate’ for someone assembling the ‘Open Records’ response… just make sure you tell them this is NOT any kind of ‘Commercial purpose’ request… and they don’t have a leg to stand on.
If they still try to charge you the fees after you have made it CLEAR to them this is NOT a ‘Commercial request’… then, of course, you don’t have to PAY those fees.
They can just ‘whistle’ for that.
Reply to Muzzy post on June 17, 2016 at 10:16 am
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> How are you going to tell a crew, “There are people’s houses over the
>> next ridge that are under threat, but we’re holding you here.” What’s
>> the point of having firefighters in the field then?
How do you TELL them they have not one atomic molecule of either DUTY or RESPONSIBILITY to even worry about any private citizen’s LIFE or PROPERTY?
In Arizona… it’s now EASY.
Whenever they show up to work on a fire as either an employee or contractor… just show them the document signed by Arizona Jude Richard Gama which SAYS they have ‘no such responsibility’… and to even lift a finger to do any such thing is ‘outside of their job description’ when working for Arizona Forestry.
Here is a copy of Arizona Judge Richard Gama’s actual ‘ruling’ which caused the initial dismissal of the Yarnell Property owner’s lawsuits ( for damages ) against Arizona Forestry…
http://41af3k34gprx4f6bg12df75i.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2015/05/Acri-v-Arizona.pdf
Direct QUOTES from that ‘Ruling’… dated April 28, 2015…
——————————————————————————————
To establish a claim for negligence, a plaintiff ( the property ownsers ) must prove
(1) a DUTY requiring the defendant ( Arizona Forestry ) to conform to a certain standard of care;
(2) a breach of that standard of care by the defendant ( Arizona Forestry ).
(3) a causal connection between the defendant’s conduct and the injury; and
(4) actual damages. E.g., Gipson v. Kasey, 214 Ariz. 141, 143 (2007).
The State argues that Plaintiffs ( the property owners ) fail to state a claim
because it OWED NO DUTY TO THEM.
See Ariz. R. Civ. P. 12(b)(6).4
“The issue of duty is not a factual matter; it is a legal matter to be determined before the case-specific facts are considered.” Gipson, 214 Ariz. at 145 (emphasis in original); Diaz v. Phx. Lubrication Serv., Inc., 224 Ariz. 335, 338 (App. 2010).
DUTY is defined as an “obligation, recognized by law, which requires the defendant to conform to a particular standard of conduct in order to protect others against unreasonable risks of harm. Markowitz v. Ariz. Parks Bd., 146 Ariz. 352, 354 (1985); Gipson, id. at 143. Whether a duty exists is a matter of law for the Court. Gipson, id.
The State argues that it did NOT OWE A DUTY to Plaintiffs by undertaking to manage and suppress the Fire.
The Court AGREES.
The Court finds that the State’s undertaking was NOT a service rendered to Plaintiffs.
The ASFD’s authority vis-a-vis wildfires is coextensive with the best interest of the STATE, and NOT persons who own property near State trust land.
See A.R.S. § 37-623(A); see generally A.R.S. § 37-621 et seq.
The Court is persuaded that public policy does NOT support imposition of a DUTY on the State to protect Plaintiffs’ property from wildfires.
See Gipson, 214 Ariz. at 146 n.4
Plaintiffs also allege that they suffered harm because they relied on the State to provide a timely and adequate evacuation notice. But, although Plaintiffs allege that an evacuation of Yarnell “was requested” on June 30, they do not allege that the State undertook to provide one. Nor do they offer any law that would impose a pre-existing DUTY on the State to even PROVIDE an evacuation notice.
SIGNED: THE HONORABLE J. RICHARD GAMA,
JUDGE OF THE SUPERIOR COURT OF ARIZONA
——————————————————————————————
NOTE: This ruling by Judge Gama is STILL ‘under appeal’.
His rulings could still easily be ‘overturned’ by the Arizona Appellate Court, and the Yarnell Property owner’s lawsuits ( over 250 of them ) could come right back onto the Court Calendar again… headed for TRIAL. We shall see what happens.
But in the MEANTIME… this RULING STANDS.
NO ONE who EVER shows up to fight a fire with/for Arizona Forestry has one single atomic molecule of either DUTY or RESPONSIBILITY to even THINK about protecting a citizen or a privately owned structure… OR to even give one thought about telling anyone to ‘get out of the way’ and make sure anyone in harm’s way is even ‘evacuating’.
Period. End of story.
It’s the LAW now ( in Arizona, anyway )… as long as this ruling is ‘on the books’.
Wow, WTKTT,
You really do know everything. This is good to know. Once the appeals are over, this text should hang in every room, buggy, and UTV occupied by a WLFF in AZ.
Re: >> Muzzy said…
>>
>> How are you going to tell a crew, “There are people’s houses …..etc…
Small correction: I would never say this. I quoted from Otis’s post that I was replying to; I believe it was from one of Brendan’s articles or book. I would be one of those guys who would hide out in the good black and let the local VFD reap what they sowed.
Staying in my lane since 1905…
Reply to Muzzy post on June 18, 2016 at 9:47 am
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>>
>> Once the appeals are over, this text should hang in every room,
>> buggy, and UTV occupied by a WLFF in AZ.
Actually… since this really is the LAW, right NOW, in Arizona ( and will remain so for as long as that ‘ruling’ is ‘on the books’… Every WLFF should carry a copy of the ruling taped to the inside of their helmet.
Because since this really is the LAW in Arizona… any WLFF who either works FOR Arizona Forestry or who is ‘subcontracting’ for Arizona Forestry on any fire can use this ruling as a valid TDAO ( Turn Down With Alternate Option )… for ANY assignment that involves protecting AN private structure or private citizen.
The “Turn Down” can just be “Bzzzt… Sorry… It’s not my job. Arizona law says so.”.
And there doesn’t even NEED to be an ‘Alternate Option’ at all.
All the WLFF has to do is show the Court Ruling itself… which SAYS it is never Arizona Forestry’s job to even THINK about protecting any private property, structure or citizen.
End of Story.
Jumping in here to say, “Exactly,” and, “Who would know?????” Given that, even here, only a handful of us are even aware of that.
Maybe that’s now their “Get Out of Jail Free”card for ordering an entire hillside to be set on fire (Ooops!) in the wrong wind conditions, that (DOH) just happened to burn down some outbuildings that just happened to belong to some tax-paying citizens of Arizona???
Facepalm.
Just thought I’d let everyone know that I’m still reading and still thinking and still questioning and still trying to follow along, as slow as I’m doing it. We’ve got a big fire burning east of Burque, smoke filling the air. Not totally up on the details. Hope nobody’s doing anything stupid, but not betting on that, all things considered.
Namaste and Happy Father’s Day tomorrow to all to whom that applies.
Bob Powers says
JUNE 17, 2016 AT 2:05 PM
I will hold my evaluation on Shawna Legarza.
California R5 has not been in the mix here and have in the Past been leaders in Fire Safety and Wild land Fire Management.
My hope is—-Just Maybe there will be a change.
Time will Tell———–
And I say, Time has told Bob…she led the cover up for the Battlement Creek Staff Ride…haven’t you read anything I have written on that topic..or is it that you don’t believe me?
No Gary I guess I missed that or her name did not ring a bell.
Shawna is an amazing woman. The only thing is since the yhf I knew HER name loud and clear because it was not Gary where I learned her name… and what I have heard complimented Gary’s early on assessments.
OK…I’ll bite. What have you heard? Or do I have guess?
I called person to refresh my memory if first account information but maybe another blogger who was present can chime in…but it was to the reasoning that people gave crucial details to battlement creek fire but Shawna much like the parallel of yhf she followed an orchestrated narrative and did not do the right thing so all these years later it taught firefighters if you don’t comprehend the fall and fail of the system you won’t go anywhere and be a national spot as seen now..Shawna did not have heart and purity enough to do the right thing but I bet her vacation package sits nice about now as I struggle with Obama care copays..that was odd to learn how drastic my insurance changed.
So Gary I publicly state Shawna did a disservice to many including you and Dr Ted Putnam and I have that right to my humble opinion. I have now spoken to too many into the high thousands and their firefighting-smokejumping accounts and I have heard its the Shawnas and Karel’s and Dudleys who in the end hurt the system cashing in but more die..
Now I am really confused Gary
Shawna Legarza Led a Staff Ride?
When was that? She Started in 1989 so when was the Ride?
So She along with others were involved in the Staff ride some 20 years latter. From 1976 to 1989 she was not even working for the FEDERAL Government.
Remember what I have said A Staff Ride is a show me trip.
They do not always follow facts. So I take that for what it is.
She was not part of the investigation So I am Still open about her.
Reply to Bob Powers post on June 18, 2016 at 12:21 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Now I am really confused Gary
>>
>> Shawna Legarza Led a Staff Ride?
>>
>> When was that?
Bob… click the link below for a longer reply, and a reprint of what Gary Olson reported about Shawna Legarza just recently.
YOU were the one HAVING that conversation with Olson in just the last Chapter.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-339873
No Olson was having a conversation and betting me over the Head which I ignored and we settled it.
Unless you are wanting to start the Fight all over with all the F words and so on I am Not Interested.
Wait…the NATIONAL director? Whoa…I did not call that one, well…I guess maybe I did. She has proven she is a very gray person, maybe the the grayest in the nation? Great Job Shawna! You Rock!
Reply to Woodsman post on
June 17, 2016 at 10:51 am
Brought up from a thread down below regarding ‘Todd Abel’, and how the ‘players’ in Central Arizona all just ‘sign off’ on each other’s TASKBOOKS…
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Of course I could say the same for
>> Sciacca, who is at a higher level in the
>> system than Willis. Look at the S AZ
>> fire academy, it’s like one big happy family.
Yep.
You are ‘closer’ to the TRUTH than you think
Did you know that one of only SIX ‘Evaluation Records’ in Eric Marsh’s DIVS TASKBOOK was for simply ‘playing DIVS’, in 2009, on that ‘pseudo-Incident Command System’ they use just to run the classes there at Embry Riddle?
And it actually COUNTED towards Marsh’s eventual DIVS ‘Certification’?
There are only SIX ‘Evaluation Records’ present in Eric Marsh’s DIVS TASKBOOK.
ONE of those SIX ‘Evaluation Records’ which helped Eric Marsh become a certified DIVS was because he ‘played DIVS’ in 2009 at the Arizona Wildfire Academy.
NOTE: Dean Steward is Todd Abel’s long-time friend and hunting buddy… who was also Todd Abel’s long-time crewmate on the Engine they both worked on at CYFD. Dean Steward was also at Yarnell and helping Todd with the Granite Mountain ‘Incident within an Incident’ that Todd Abel was made the ‘IC’ of following the deployment. Dean Steward was the HEQB / DOZB that supervised getting the dozer push done from the Boulder Springs Ranch out to the deployment site.
PDF page 3 ( of 5 pages ) from the copy of Eric Marsh’s official DIVS Taskbook that was supplied to ADOSH by the City of Prescott Human Resources Department…
——————————————————————————————-
EVALUATION RECORDS
TRAINEE NAME: Eric Marsh
TRAINEE POSITION: DIVS
Evaluator’s name: Dean Steward
Incident/office title & agency: DIVS, Central Yavapai Fire, 922-772-xxxx
Name and Location of Incident: AWA Wildland Academy
Number & Type of Resources Pertinent to Trainee’s Position: Classes S-211, S-234
Duration: ( inclusive dates in trainee status ): 3-14-09 to 3-20-09
Management Level or Prescribed Fire Complexity Level: ICS System
NFFL Fuel Model(s): N/A
The tasks initialed and dated by me have been performed under my supervision in a satisfactory manner by the above named trainee. I recommend the following for further development of this trainee.
( X ) The individual has successfully performed all tasks for the position and
should be considered for certification.
Date: 3-20-09
Evaluator’s initials/signature: SIGNED: D. Steward
Evaluators relevant red card ( or agency certification ) rating: DIVS
Evaluator’s comments:
AZ Wildfire Academy. Eric acted as DIVS for the skills group.
Eric coordinated and supported 2-S211 classes and the S-234 class
during their field and burning days. Total of 24 hours. D.S. ( Dean Steward ).
———————————————————————————————-
So one of the REASONS they have ‘structured’ this AWIMA thing ( that Eric Marsh himself started from the living room of his trailer way back when ) as an actual ‘Incident’, and they ‘structure’ it according to the ‘Incident Management System’… is so the MANAGERS and TEACHERS can actually get additional position taskbook evaluation records ‘signed’ on just by being there each year.
Todd Abel has been ‘involved’ with this ‘Arizona Wildfire Academy’ for ( supposedly ) 14 years.
Todd Abel was the pseudo IC ( “Incident Commander” ) this year ( 2016 ), and was
In 2013 – Todd Abel was “Deputy Incident Commander”.
So how much you want to bet that if you took at look at Todd Abel’s own ‘Taskbooks’ for various positions… he has ALSO been getting ‘Taskbook Credit’ for certain positions just by filling those ‘psuedo-ICS-slots’ at this AWIMA thing… just like Eric Marsh did.
By the way… there IS (public) evidence that Todd Abel had ‘started’ his taskbooks for both OPS 2 and OPS 1 positions… but there is ( as of April 1, 2016 ) no evidence that he has ever COMPLETED either one of those ‘taskbooks’ or been ‘approved’ by the Arizona State Wildfire Qualifications Review Committee ( QRC ) to have those certifications listed on his ‘red-card’.
From the various ‘Minutes’ of the official…
“Arizona State Widlfire Qualfications Review Committee (QRC)” meeting(s)…
The following covers AZ State Wildfire QRC Meeting minutes from April 12, 2006 THROUGH the most recent meeting held on April 1, 2016.
The NEXT scheduled QRC committee meeting scheduled ( as per the most recent April 1, 2016 meeting minutes ) as this coming July 29, 2016.
These are the ONLY entries you will find in ANY of those QTC meeting minutes that mention ‘Todd Abel’…
—————————————————————————————————–
Meeting date: February 24, 2009
Abel, Todd – Central Yavapai FD – Approved for OSC2 (t) ( Operations – Level 2 – Trainee ).
Meeting date: September 26, 2011
Abel, Todd – Central Yavapai FD – Completed FIRB task book – Approved.
Meeting date: November 15, 2011
Abel, Todd – Central Yavapai FD – Review for Qualification OPBD – Approved.
Meeting date: November 16, 2012
Abel, Todd – Central Yavapai FD – Initiate OSC1 task book. Approved. Also must complete a full Type 2 Wildland Incident assignment ( w/ Type 2 Team ) prior to being approved as OSC1 per the newly established criteria.
Meeting Date: October 8, 2013
Abel, Todd – Central Yavapai FD – File review for ICT4 qualifications – Approved.
——————————————————————————————————–
That’s it.
No record of ‘Todd Abel’ ever actually COMPLETING his ‘OSC2 (t)’ or ‘OSC1’ Taskbooks.
If either of those things happened… then it was never officially ‘approved’ or ‘recorded’ at ANY of the “Arizona State Widlfire Qualfications Review Committee (QRC)” meeting(s).
Wow…you are all over this. Scary…you and them.
Gary called it!
New USFS Fire Director selected
Shawna Legarza has been selected as the national Director of Fire and Aviation for the US Forest Service. She will replace Tom Harbour who retired at the end of 2015. Currently Ms. Legarza is the regional Fire Director for the Forest Service’s California region.
More later at wildfiretoday.com
Oops, Joy beat me to it!
At least she came from a Fire position and R5.
Muzzy I wanted to clarify something you said down below.
PINK CARD took the Place of the RED CARD which was really red at one time and hence the name RED CARD.
While many still say red card it is now Pink.
I also agree with you that the step test was better and evaluated your hart rate after exorcise. A step that was I believe 18 inches you stepped up and down in cadence to a beat for 5 Minuets then your hart beat was taken which determined your fitness rating for line positions based on a chart. I retired before the running Test started.
I also gave the test to the Supervisors office and Team Members as well as the Hot Shot Crew. I was also responsible for putting the Qualifications into the Computer After a qualifications review for the Forest and Printing them for the Forest FMO to sign off on. It was not easy to get ratings above your qualifications back then.
Bob Powers said:
PINK CARD took the Place of the RED CARD which was really red at one time and hence the name RED CARD.
LOL, Bob, as you may realize, I am a city mouse and have never even seen a real live hotshot, much less a card in his pocket! When I said pink card, I meant to imply that it was a watered down red card. I should have put it in quotes to avoid confusion, but I’m on a tablet and quotes are too much work for lazy me!
I agree that Legarza is at least an up-through-the-ranks WLFF, and a tough cookie from what I read about her. I hope she clamps down on some of the quals abuse that’s out there.
I don’t even hold it against her that she told the party line on the Battlement Creek staff ride (although I understand why Gary does). Until she was in a position to change the system, she would probably only have damaged her own career. What she does from here on out IS important and up to her.
Still, current and retired WLFFs could be the wind at her back in cleaning house and reestablishing safety and discipline through the system, especially among the battalion chiefs.
Well you hit it on the head it is PINK.
Ha, who knew the Feds have poetry in their blood…
Would it help if the step test or other tests were recorded on cell phone video and uploaded? Or if the test could only be administered by someone from another state or region. Or as WTKTT suggests, a contractor not beholden to the services. Yet another opportunity for retired FFs to double dip.
The problem is they are not doing ANY testing, the step test is no more if I have heard correctly. And the test that is there is not being applied if those two sorry fucks are getting on the line.
Whoops
Gary Olson says
JUNE 17, 2016 AT 4:00 PM
Shawna didn’t come FROM Region 5, she came FROM Region 4.
And maybe you could say Region 10 as well but NOT Region 5. And by the say…she is GOOD and she does deserve the job for lots of reasons.
I cheated.
Muzzy says
JUNE 16, 2016 AT 8:55 AM
WTKTT,
I would not call these guys WLFFs. They are members of a local, mostly volunteer structural/hybrid department. They are battalion chiefs in training. As I said in the last chapter, these guys were born to do good PR and trained as firefighters. And what is PR but putting lipstick on a pig.
And I say…yeah, no shit! Two of those guys look like ME TODAY. If either one of them passed any kind of objective fitness for duty test…I will KISS their BARE asses!
And let me tell you one more thing. I can tell you EXACTLY where everything officially went to hell in a hand basket as far as the integrity of the entire wildland firefighting system.
And that moment was…when they did away with the step test. MOST of the structural firefighters who have morphed in bastardized hybrid firefighters could NOT pass the step test. That is why THEY had to do away with it.
You want a quick fix for this sightseer bus/passenger plane and Amtrack train crash? Something that is really, really, really simple to do? Require EVERYONE who gets a red card that enables they to go on the FIRE LINE to pass the step test…just like everyone used to have to do.
And make sure the step test is NOT administered by some ass wipe like Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Ben D’over, make sure an independent contractor gives them or do them en mass by an agency that does not play stinky finger with those who they are testing. The Prescott Fire Department and the Prescott National Forest come to mind.
The U.S. Forest Service…by themselves could FIX that tomorrow because as the USFS goes, so goes all other agencies. That is how fire shelters and fire resistant trousers were implemented in 1977. The USFS did it and they required all partner agencies who send their fire fighters to fight fire on national forests to do the same…so everybody got on board immediately.
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/bcc11f249119d8cc3f5a2ef7c108c5d400dd8d03/c=57-0-2540-1867&r=x393&c=520×390/local/-/media/2016/06/10/Phoenix/Phoenix/636011590554327836-Tenderfoot-Fire-23.jpg
Just LOOK at two of those stupid fucks. They look like me except no muscle mass. And I will tell you one more thing, those two other stupid fucks couldn’t pass a step test either if they smoke and don’t run about 1.5 miles almost everyday.
The run in lieu of the step test is even an easier option. Just line everybody up at their local school’s quarter mile track…and whoever doesn’t make it around before the stop watch gets to eleven minutes (adjusted for altitude, although Bill Buck never did and we ran at 7,400 feet) doesn’t get to go out on interagency wildfires that year until they do.
FIX IT! NWCG…you worthless FUCKS.
Gee…do I sound angry? I’m really not…I don’t have a dog in this fight. My son or other loved one (other than in a general sense because I love all WF) wasn’t burned alive on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
You remember…it’s when they were coughing up their burning lung tissue so hard they separated their tongues from their frenulums and so their tongues remained protruded from their mouths.
Whoops, “and whoever doesn’t make it around the track SIX (6) times before the stop watch gets to eleven minutes (adjusted for altitude, although Bill Buck never did and we ran at 7,400 feet) doesn’t get to go out on interagency wildfires that year until they do.”
And no I am not linking Granite Mountain’s fitness to their deaths, there is no doubt they were very fit for duty (other than a bunch of them still being drunk and at least two of them kept drinking that day). But the “ANYTHING GOES” attitude is linked direct to their deaths. And that is the new reality in this new age…anything goes. There are no fucking rules. Everybody is doing whatever they want.
Two of those stupid fucks in that photo are one wildfire away from massive heart attacks running away from the “backburn” they set that in no way should have been set by them, where they did and when they did and how they did it. Other than that Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Ben D’over is doing a BANG UP job.
Oh…and one more thing. The reason neither one of those stupid fucks who are shitting in the corners of OUR HOUSE now don’t have any muscle mass…is because they have never been to a gym to hit the weights in their lives!
Take a look at the old man at the bottom of this photo in front of Battlement Mesa. Now there is an old man who has spent some time in a gym, he obviously eats too much, but look at those gorilla arms. How would you like those wrapped around you?
By the way…the man to his right was a smokejumper for more than 30 YEARS and used to work for a living because he was on the Happy Jack Hotshots. The other guy used to work for a living too but then he moved on to lay around and lick his nuts full time as a helislack.
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
As a general rule of thumb…if you can see someone’s face still JIGGLING even after they have posted their selfie to their Face Book page…that person should NOT be on the fire line of a wildfire as a WF or even as a caterer.
Oh…and one more thing. When you do bring the step test back…make the women take theirs using the same box the men use. There are a lot of vertically challenged men out there and they don’t make the women climb the only the small mountains to fight wildfires.
Shawna didn’t come FROM Region 5, she came FROM Region 4.
In other words, there are no STANDARDS any more because the standards that do exist are being overseen by small, petty, self serving men like Darrell Willis who decided Eric Marsh should be a hotshot crew boss even though he was so deeply flawed…and Wills KNEW it.
And men like Yarnell Fire Chief Ben D’over have the power to decide that Tweedledee and Tweedledumb can be front line wildland firefighters AND that I couldn’t go to the deployment site to pay my respects to the memory of MY crew when I had the opportunity.
A man like that, deciding a man like me could not go to where our crew died to pay my respects! WTF?
Gary said:
But the “ANYTHING GOES” attitude is linked direct to their deaths. And that is the new reality in this new age…anything goes. There are no fucking rules. Everybody is doing whatever they want.
I think it was in one of JDs articles there was a quote from another hotshot sup who corrected Eric Marsh for wearing his sleeves rolled up. He said something to the effect that no one dies because his sleeves are rolled up but because people who disobey one rule will flout others.
I’m amazed at how many FFs run into trouble and don’t have their gloves on, especially after hearing stories of entrapments like Thirty Mile were the FF couldn’t hold onto the hot shelter with his bare hand.
There should be some system of penalty flags that can be handed out for objective rule infractions on the line. At least the crews would get the message that the rules were for real and not just “hillbilly.”
Reply to Muzzy post on June 17, 2016 at 1:42 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> There should be some system of penalty flags that can
>> be handed out for objective rule infractions on the line.
You mean… other than the ‘penalty flag’ of eventually being told by the people you work for to just lie down of the floor of some fuel-filled blind box canyon somewhere and cough up your burning lung tissue?
I totally AGREE.
Bill Gabbert posted: “Shawna Legarza has been selected as the national Director of Fire and Aviation for the US Forest Service. She will replace Tom Harbour who retired at the end of 2015.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 16, 2016 at 9:55 pm
>> Joy A. Collura posted…
>> http://www.bendbulletin.com/home/4434386-151/surviving-firefighter-trying-to-get-his-reputation-back
That ‘Oregon’ based article is just part of what is ‘making the rounds’ in the MSM right now.
Same story is ‘going viral’ on showing up in a LOT of places.
Here is the ORIGINAL story as published just recently in the Los Angeles Times…
The Los Angeles Times
Article Title: What is the lone surviving firefighter from Yarnell Hill fire doing to get his reputation back?
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ff-yarnell-survivor-snap-story.html
Published: June 14, 2016 – 3:00 AM – By Nigel Duara ( reporting from Phoenix )
From the article…
——————————————————————————————
Brendan McDonough survived one of the deadliest wildfires in U.S. history, an inferno near Yarnell, Ariz., that killed 19 of his fellow Granite Mountain Hotshots on June 30, 2013.
Citing his PTSD, he twice canceled depositions scheduled by the Arizona Division of Forestry, which was investigating the fire and negotiating settlements with the families of the dead. Arizonans were infuriated, then, when it was announced that McDonough would write a book about his life and the ordeal, and advise on a movie, “Granite Mountain,” which is set to begin filming this summer.
In an interview with The Times, McDonough spoke about the controversy. His responses have been edited for clarity and length.
——————————————————————————————
NOTE: In the following quote… Brendan is describing what happened when he cancelled his first already-scheduled under-oath deposition just 24 hours beforehand, and when he had hired Prescott Criminal Defense Attorney Patrick McGroder, who was working on a murder case that would tie him up until February of 2015.
Brendan does not say WHO the person was who told him “Hell no”, with regards to going through with the deposition, and then actually put Brendan in touch with Prescott Attorney Patrick McGroder… but it had to be someone who he ‘trusted’ ( at that time ).
——————————————————————————————-
How many times did the Division of Forestry ask to depose you, and what happened each time?
Brendan McDonough: The first time they came at me, they just said “come on down for lunch and let’s talk.” I told someone and he said, “Hell [expletive] no. Even if you have nothing to hide, they’ll twist your words.” So he put me in touch with an attorney. The attorney said, “I’m not free for some time.”
——————————————————————————————
NOTE: Brendan’s description of his NEXT ‘refusal’ to meet the NEXT already-scheduled under-oath deposition matches what was in the PUBLIC case documents being posted by ADOSH as part of the ongoing appeal with Arizona Forestry denying ALL of the conclusions of the original ADOSH report. Those documents said it was, in fact, Brendan’s ‘therapist’ who was recommending he ( Brendan ) NOT go through with that SECOND already-scheduled under-oath deposition.
——————————————————————————————-
Brendan McDonough: The second time, I was talking to my counselor, and I was just getting into some real heavy [stuff], really getting into the nitty-gritty of what makes my stress, my anxiety, my PTSD tick. She’s like, “There’s no way you’re doing it right now. They can come back to us in six months or a year, if they want to do it then, we’ll do it then.”
While this is going on, everyone in the media is saying, “Brendan is hiding, he’s lying, he won’t testify, yada yada yada, he’s deceitful. He’s still writing a book, but he’s going to write something in the book he doesn’t want to testify about.”
——————————————————————————————-
NOTE: Brendan is ‘imagining things’ when he says “EVERYONE in the media” was saying he was a ‘liar’ and he was ‘hiding’. MOST of the mainstream media was paying almost NO attention to these ongoing ( legal ) consternations… other than just reporting the FACTS, as they became available.
Next statement is pretty strong, from Brendan.
It ends with him declaring that he actually believes there is some chance that the people who were supposed to be ‘taking care of him’ ( who did not? Arizona Forestry? Who? ) might ( quote ) “come to his house and put a bullet in his head”.
———————————————————————————————-
Brendan McDonough: We set up a third deposition. I wanted to shut these people up. I was ready to testify. The [Arizona Division of Forestry] canceled it the night before, like 8, 9 o’clock. More information had come out that showed [the 19 dead firefighters] didn’t make the mistakes they were accused of. I think that’s why [the Division of Forestry] canceled it.
(State records show that the deposition had been scheduled for late May 2015. The state reached a settlement with the families of the deceased firefighters on June 1, 2015.)
I’m not scared of them, I don’t fear them. The worst they can do is come to my house and put a bullet in my head.
These are the people who were supposed to take care of us. I don’t feel taken care of.
———————————————————————————————-
NOTE: When Brendan says…
“More information had come out that showed [the 19 dead firefighters] didn’t make the mistakes they were accused of. I think that’s why [the Division of Forestry] canceled it.”
…it is hard to say what he even thinks he is referring to there, in THAT timeframe.
I suppose he MIGHT simply be referring to the article that was co-written by author John Maclean and Holly Neill that had appeared at Bill Gabbert’s ‘Wildfire Today’.
THAT is the article where Holly Neill asserted that she was convinced SHE was hearing Eric Marsh say “I’m at the house” in the 4:13 PM Panebaker Air Study radio capture… and Neill had also convinced HERSELF that MUST have meant all of the following things…
1. That ‘house’ MUST have meant the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ residence itself… and so Eric Marsh HAD made it ALL the way TO the Boulder Springs Ranch by 4:13 PM.
2. That this ‘fact’ also automatically meant it was a corresponding ‘fact’ that Eric Marsh had properly ‘scouted’ and ‘timed’ ( and also possibly ‘improved’, with sawyers ) the ‘escape route’ that Granite Mountain would take that afternoon through that fuel-filled blind box canyon at the height of the burn cycle, within 1/2 mile of a dynamic, wind-driven fireline.
This is the “new information” that Holly Neill had also tried to ‘deliver’ to ADOSH when she was signing her emails to ADOSH lead investigator as “From: GmIHC” with a signature line of just “A FAN of GMIHC”, and she clearly stated that SHE wanted ADOSH to CHANGE ( or AMEND ) their official investigation report to reflect these ‘new facts’ in order to ( her words ) “provide a more positive legacy for the GMIHC”. ADOSH accepted the ‘new evidence’ Holly Neill was putting forth… including her OWN ‘transcript’ of the radio captures… but had to also inform her that the case was officially closed ( but being appealed by Arizona Forestry ) and they would NOT be able to fulfill her wishes and either ‘change’ or ‘amend’ their official investigation report regardless of what she thought she was hearing in some radio captures.
Soon after their ‘findings’ were ‘published’ at ‘Wildfire Today’… BOTH John Maclean AND ‘backed off’ being so sure about the exact words coming out of Eric Marsh’s mouth in that 4:13 PM radio capture… but the Mainstream Media had already reported Holly Neill’s original ‘assertions of fact’ based on just that ONE WORD ( “house” ) she *thought* she had heard in the radio capture.
And as for THIS ( coming now from Brendan regarding the THIRD attempt to depose him )…
“Brendan McDonough: I wanted to shut these people up. I was READY to TESTIFY.”
…Brendan still seems to be implying that he was simply DENIED ( by others ) the ability to tell everything he may ( or may NOT ) know… and that he has somehow not had ( ample ) other opportunities to do so since then.
And Brendan ( once again ), makes no mention of the ‘event’ that even CAUSED the Arizona State Attorney General’s office to be seeking even the FIRST ‘deposition’ with him.
Even just that FIRST attempt to ‘depose’ Brendan was ONLY ‘coming onto to the table’ in the background pleadings being filed in Arizona’s Forestry’s contest hearing with ADOSH about all the findings in the ADOSH report because of what Brendan had ( supposedly ) reported to Prescott Division Chief Darrell Willis, in a private discussion.
That’s when Brendan ( supposedly ) had turned to Darrell Willis and said there were things he “wanted to get off his chest” about what happened in Yarnell… and they were things that Darrell Willis himself said he found (quote) “so SHOCKING, and so IMPORTANT” that Darrell Willis told Brendan “This can’t just STAY with me”… and Willis ( supposedly ) gave Brendan that ultimatum about “going to the proper authorities” himself over the course of a few days, or Darrell Willis himself would do it.
And ( supposedly ), that is exactly what Darrell Willis did ( in conjunction with Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini ).
THAT is when the Arizona Attorney General’s office started ‘pressing’ for an under-oath deposition for Brendan McDonough.
It all only even BEGAN happening AFTER Brendan has ( supposedly ) ‘started that ball rolling’ by ( supposedly ) trying to ‘confess’ something to Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.
So Brendan seems confused about the actual TIMING of all this ( the deposition attempts ).
They only began AFTER his ( supposed ) ‘conversation’ with Darrell Willis… and Willis himself felt whatever Brendan said was important enough that the Arizona Attorney General’s office needed to KNOW about it… and then HEAR IT all from Brendan himself.
And then Brendan ( in the inteview ) “Goes off” on Arizona Forestry and the other agencies who were working the Yarnell Hill Fire…
——————————————————————————————-
QUESTION: So why not make a bigger deal about this, hold a news conference or something of that nature? Do you care about what the public thinks outside of the small area where you live?
Brendan McDonough: No, I do care. I want to be mindful of how I’m perceived.
I’m trying not to go out in the media and say they did this to me and they did that to me. But they tried making it about me when there were 200 other people who should have been looked at, people [at the Division of Forestry] who could have made better choices.
——————————————————————————————-
There’s more… and there is a lot of ANGER surfacing here on Brendan’s part, while this ‘book tour’ of his ‘winds down’.
BTW: Brendan’s own PUBLIC Facebook page ( over which HE has COMPLETE control ), still lists ( even as of THIS moment ) his ‘chosen occupation’ as simply Public Figure.
I think the OutsideOnline inteview has a telling comment in it, bit of a sledgehammer actually and sounded very close to scenario’s that have been mooted on here;
A lot of people think hotshots need to increase their margin of safety, get farther away from the burning edge. That’s a tough one. There’s a basic conflict between the effectiveness of a hotshot crew and their safety. How are you going to tell a crew, “There are people’s houses over the next ridge that are under threat, but we’re holding you here.” What’s the point of having firefighters in the field then?
i.e. GM couldn’t be held back in the black because they wanted to “Risk A Lot to Save A Lot” especially those “people’s houses over the next ridge that are under threat”.
…and the idea of those SEND gadgets – I like that.
UK Police have panic buttons on their radios, that essentially open the mic to the dispatcher for about 10 seconds – over and above everyone else i.e. it blocks everyone else, but it can also send GPS co-ords (however we should be aware GPS can be inaccurate from such machines).
How are you going to tell a crew, “There are people’s houses over the next ridge that are under threat, but we’re holding you here.” What’s the point of having firefighters in the field then?
The point of a WLFF is to fight fire in the wildland. There are no important buildings or other man made assets in the wildland. What the WLFF community needs to do is explain in detail (PR again) what they do and what they can’t do using their training and equipment. Then they need to develop maps in the off season showing property owners which assets in the WUI are indefensible and hand off to local authorities to create defensible space.
If you look at the IR map of the Cedar Fire (available at Wildfiretoday.com), you will see a hook of fire from the north to south along the eastern side of the fire. That is a burnout created well in front of the fire, I believe along a road, to stop it. At Yarnell, in a plan that didn’t prioritize homes, that line might have run through neighborhoods, or more likely would have been along the west side of 89, sacrificing that whole side of town.
WLFFs need to immunize themselves against the whines of state and local officials who expect WLFF to cover up their own lack of planning and unwillingness to impose reasonable building rules on cheapskate homeowners who elect them.
In cities, FFs don’t just go to fires, they shape building codes and standards, inspect public buildings, and educate the public regarding fire safety inside and outside the homes. They also cost more, have better bennies, and safer working conditions. VFDs don’t have the budget or the clout to accomplish this, and my guess it that homeowners in those areas enjoy their freedom to do what they want on their property. WLFFs have no input and most of the risk when they engage in the WUI.
It’s a poisonous combination. If they all in the WUI want to live like that, who am I to stop them? But I don’t think the general public ought to pay for their luxury, nor should other people’s children have to die for it.
Muzzy—-FS and BLM have Fire Prevention Tec’s that do that with in the forest boundary every Spring the problem is private property out side the Forest boundary.
Those employees inspect houses both federal lease and Private on a yearly bases. It is the town ships that are incorporated within the Federal boundary that becomes a problem. They are under the City control and not the Government.
Bob says:
It is the town ships that are incorporated within the Federal boundary that becomes a problem. They are under the City control and not the Government.
Thanks for filling me in on this. The more I learn about the WUI the more evil it looks.
I know how cold this sounds, but WLFFs need to stay out of those places. If it’s not certified defensible by an actual WLFF, it should be off limits. Even if certified, WLFFs should still evaluate the area for themselves for safety. Any DIVS or OPS who even suggests “helping out” in an uncertified place should be reevaluated.
Also, these “pink carded” people should not be allowed to act as overhead within their own districts. Let them work with guys who didn’t sign off on their red cards. At least they won’t let home town fervor overcome their judgment and they might learn some technique.
WTKTT said:
They only began AFTER his ( supposed ) ‘conversation’ with Darrell Willis… and Willis himself felt whatever Brendan said was important enough that the Arizona Attorney General’s office needed to KNOW about it… and then HEAR IT all from Brendan himself.
I am of the opinion that Willis was not listening to Brendan with dispassion and objectivity. Whatever Brendan said, I suspect that Willis heard something that let him or one of his buds off the hook. When Brendan related his conversation to someone with more savvy, that person recognized the ways in which Brendan’s words could be twisted to deep six the settlements with the families, and exonerate the state forestry department. When that point was moot, Brendan’s information (and the possibility of undoing its benefit during cross examination or interviews) was suppressed. Now that he’s stated he will only reveal this information under oath (with the help of his own lawyer to wordsmith a version than cannot be perverted by the investigators), he remains silent.
My question is, is there any body or investigator who would have the standing and credibility to “depose” Brendan and reveal what he has to say? All the relevant official investigations are closed, so it would have to be a private party, or a new investigation or lawsuit. John Maclean comes to mind, but his advocacy in the Wildfire Today article makes him less than objective. The lawsuits with the families are settled, and I suspect that statutes of limitations have run out for more. JD also has objectivity issues.
I am on record saying that I don’t think Brendan has much credibility without corroboration from others like BR IHC, but I would believe them without hearing from Brendan at all. But that could change.
I do hope that Brendan finds a way to use his revelations to advance the cause of safety and dignity for WLFFs with getting a bullet to his head, as he once feared.
Argh! WITHOUT getting a bullet to his head….
**
** NEW INFORMATION ABOUT THE 1966 ‘LOOP’ FIRE TRAGEDY?
In case folks over here missed it… someone named ‘Smokey307’ left a new comment over in that other InvestigativeMEDIA article and answered the question over there regarding the ‘berets’ that the ‘El Cariso’ Hotshots used to wear, and their involvement in the LOOP fire, and the similarities between the ‘Investigation’ conclusions ( or lack thereof ) between the LOOP Fire and the Yarnell Hill Fire.
This ‘Smokey307’ person was a Dalton IHC Hotshot who was THERE ( at the LOOP fire ).
It sounds like he is actually revealing some previously UNKNOWN information about what really happened at the LOOP fire.
Here is where his comment appeared, over in that other article, and what it was in response to…
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: Forest Service ignored information from hotshot leaders
about Granite Mountain’s history of bad decisions
Published: May 18, 2016 By John Dougherty ( 108 Comments so far )
http://www.investigativemedia.com/forest-service-ignored-information-from-hotshot-leaders-about-granite-mountains-history-of-bad-decisions/#comment-338958
————————————————————————————————-
>> On May 24, 2016 at 10:11 pm, Martininsocal said…
>>
>> Martininsocal said…
>>
>> Unfortunately, this is not the first time something like
>> this has happened. It is a replay of something very similar
>> in 1966. The crew dynamics that played a part in the
>> Loop Fire seem like a ghost from the past here.
>> On May 25, 2016 at 5:16 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth replied…
Yep. Right down to the “ghost from the past” ‘Conclusions and Recommendations’ made after the ‘investigation’ ( cough, cough ) of THAT ‘LOOP Fire’ tragedy…
The Official REPORT…
The LOOP FIRE Disaster – Angeles National Forest – California Region
Report Title: A Brief of the Report of the Group Assigned to Analyze the LOOP FIRE Accident.
From: The U.S. Department of Agriculture – Forest Service – Washinton, DC.
Published: November 1, 1996
http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/fire-origins/loop-fire-brief.htm
From the ‘Conclusions’ section of the official LOOP FIRE report…
——————————————————————————–
From all that can be determined at this time, there was NO evidence of negligence, disobedience or carelessness in the Loop Fire control operation based on present standards and practices.
——————————————————————————–
Eerily similar to the Yarnell Hill Fire SAIT’s conclusion(s) ( or, rather, the lack thereof ).
>> Martininsocal said…
>>
>> Just missing the berets.
Thank you, Martininsocal, for participating in this ongoing discussion… but that’s that curious phrase of yours again. Can you clarify what you were/are really trying to say there?
Do you mean that they were just ‘acting’ like ‘Green Beret’ jarheads and somehow blindly obeying orders ( even stupid ones )… or are you implying that anyone with even just a few hours of training and an FF1 rating is automatically the equivalent of highly trained members of the US Military “Special Forces”?
—————————————————————————————————–
So that is the thread ‘context’ that then prompted the following ‘new’ comment from ‘Smokey307’…
*** NEW COMMENT FROM ‘SMOKEY307’…
On June 8, 2016 at 7:58 pm, Smokey307 said…
I will comment because I was on the Dalton IHC on that sector of line ( at the LOOP fire ) when the chimney blew up. The El Cariso Superintendent, Gordon King, knew that hot shots worked harder and in the more dangerous parts of a fire than many others. He establish some incentives for his men. After a crewman worked a shift of hot line he was awarded a black beret. The crewmen had pulaski handles which were totems that recorded that crewman’s fire history for that particular fire season. Most IHC had “hotshot attitudes” and believed we (all hotshots) were the best. My experience was that the El Cariso guys wore those berets in camp and lorded it over other hotshot crews. The berets were subsequently banned because it was said they created an invincible attitude. The Dalton Super, Chuck Hartley, turned down the same assignment for us because he believed the assignment was too dangerous after scouting the line. Unfortunately, the Line Boss did tell Gordon that Chuck turned down the assignment. I think there were many things that contributed to the Loop tragedy. The big one was poor communication. Line Boss did NOT tell Gordon that one of his peers did not consider the assignment safe, and that El Cariso did not have a radio that communicated with anyone else on the fire. I think they believed their sense of invincibility stressed by the crew culture.
Followup…
‘Smokey307’ has not said so… but I believe he/she accidentally left the word ‘NOT’ out of one the sentences above.
He/She *may* have meant to say…
.Unfortunately… the Line Boss did NOT tell Gordon that Chuck turned down the assignment.
That would make the ‘Unfortunately’ reference at the start of the sentence make more sense… and would also then make that sentence ‘match’ the next reference to this event, which DOES include the word ‘NOT’…
Line Boss did NOT tell Gordon that one of his peers did not consider the assignment safe,
Hopefully… ‘Smokey307’ him/her self will come back and clarify.
Well I have referred to this before.
In 1967 I went to the Angeles and worked closely with The Chalio Hot Shot Superintendent who told me the Same thing. Pete said he as well as Chuck turned down the assignment that King and his crew accepted.
How ever Pete said that king was right there with the other two Superintendents when the Discussion took place. Pete said those Dam Berets thought they were invincible. King killed his crew and no one would believe Chuck and Me about what happened.
I also worked for Larry who was the Asst. to Pete at the time and was at the time I met him the Superintendent of Oak Grove Hot Shots. He told me the same thing and Both Him and Pete used the Loop Fire in their Training of what not to do and why.
None of this ever showed up in the Investigation. It was well known in the Angeles Hot Shot Circles Five Crews plus many overhead.
El Cariso’s reputation took a long time to heel.
NOTE Bill Gabbert came on the crew some time after the horrific burn over he was on the crew in the 72 and 73 when I was on Oak Grove. They were still living down the Black Berets even then. The Crew was completely new with new Supervisors but still were living down that Past.
Those kind of things with the internal structure of Hot Shot Crews is Common and may also add to the Reputation of what was going on in the Granit Mountain Crew.
As we have already herd from some Superintendents. It is the internal culture that investigators do not want to get into. Many Superintendents never would wright a letter detailing another crews problems.
So you see it is a continuing thing from the past they step forward to tell what was happening on a crew that got caught in a burn over and they are ignored. like the Loop and Yarnell. No one wants to go there at the Investigation level.
Thank you, Bob.
And now that Shawna Legarza has ‘ascended’ the ladder of this “Cosa Nostra” to become the absolute high-grand-mucky-mucky-poobah of the US Forestry Service… we can be SURE that they are going to just DOUBLE-DOWN on the “culture of coverup”.
It really is time for “Civil Review Boards”.
It’s the ONLY thing that worked to get rid of the “culture of corruption and coverup” that had become the ‘norm’ in the Law Enforcement agencies in the latter half of the last century.
I will hold my evaluation on Shawna Legarza.
California R5 has not been in the mix here and have in the Past been leaders in Fire Safety and Wild land Fire Management.
My hope is—-Just Maybe there will be a change.
Time will Tell———–
I’ll be watching for any ‘press releases’ from the new grand-pooba-mucky-muck of the US Forestry Service.
I believe it’s customary, when you ‘ascend’ to a position like that, to actually SAY what ‘direction’ you intend to go in during your tenure, and what you intend to DO as ‘Director’ of a Federal Agency.
But maybe USFS doesn’t do THAT, either.
Maybe she just gets to ‘take over’… and say NOTHING about what she intends to do or accomplish.
Its not a political job it is a in house promotion. Doubt she will say much till she is in the job.
Bob Powers said
JUNE 15, 2016 AT 1:42 PM
We used it in California mostly after breaks on the Fire Line.
Gary Olson said
JUNE 16, 2016 AT 12:55 AM
After further reflection, I remember that you are correct Bob. The command to get to back after a break was, “Saddle Up.”
But the command to prepare to go on the line and assemble into squads was, “Tool Up.”
These details are important for future wildland firefighters so they can know how it was when things were done right…you know, before people like Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Ben D’over were in charge.
http://www.outsideonline.com/2090266/how-we-can-make-wildland-firefighting-safer
http://www.bendbulletin.com/home/4434386-151/surviving-firefighter-trying-to-get-his-reputation-back
Click the following link to see a longer ‘Reply’ posted above as a new parent comment.
Yikes. A LOT of ANGER now surfacing ( PUBLICLY ) from Brendan McDonough as his ‘book tour’ winds down…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-339743
**
** PEEPLES VALLEY FIREFIGHTER BEN BERNARD LIED
** TO THE MEDIA ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED ON ‘CREST WAY’
Yep. No room for just ‘mis-remembering’ here.
It’s the “L” word.
On Friday, June 10, 2016, AZCENTRAL reported Tom Tingle came across 4 Peeples Valley Firefighters sitting at a table at the ‘Base Camp’ that was, by then, fully established near the Model Creek Elementary School in Peeples Valley.
Peeples Valley Firefighter Ben Bernard consented to an an ‘on-camera’ interview.
That interview is here…
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-breaking/2016/06/08/new-fire-yarnell-evacuations-underway/85626896/
It is the 7th video out of the 18 videos on the ‘video toolbar’ there at the top of that page.
Video Title: Firefighters face the Tenderfoot Fire
Video Duration: 47 seconds
Video Description: A Peeples Valley Firefighter ( Ben Bernard ) talks about fighting the Tenderfoot Fire during an interview at base camp, Friday, June 10, 2016. – By Tom Tingle / AZCENTRAL
In the video… Peeples Valley Firefighter Scott Mayer is sitting at the table in the LEFT side of the video, and Peeples Valley Firefighter Ben Bernard is on the RIGHT side of the video and the one speaking to the camera.
Transcript of this interview with Ben Bernard…
———————————————————————————
Ben Bernard said…
I was the first response with… uh… the guys out of Yarnell… when it first started. We were the first boots on the ground. Mutual… yea… they called us over for mutual aid. So we ran our tender over there… and one our type sixes. Helped ’em with that. And when it blew up and got too big for us… then we just had to wait for all the support to come in.
And it jumped over the top of the hill and came down the Yarnell side.
And then that’s when we had structure fires and all that to take care of.
The first day it was… pretty busy… ya know… the flames were right up on us.
Yesterday was a lotta mop up. Goin’ around and hotspottin’.
Scott ( Mayer ) and I were out hittin the fireline that was already down. Knockin’ down the stuff and hikin’ out. Lotta stumps and that kinda thing.
That’s probably the same thing we’ll be doin’ today.
Just a lotta cleanin’ up.
———————————————————————————–
Peeples Valley Firefighter Ben Bernard described what happened on Crest Way as…
“It ( the fire ) jumped over the TOP of the hill and came DOWN the Yarnell side.
And then that’s when we had structure fires and all that to take care of.
That’s a LIE.
That is NOT what happened… and there is also kinds of photographic and video evidence that PROVES that is NOT what happened.
At the end of the interview… Tom Tingle then took a still photograph of the FOUR Peeples Valley Firefighters that were sitting at the table… and they all gave him their NAMES.
That photograph is HERE…
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/bcc11f249119d8cc3f5a2ef7c108c5d400dd8d03/c=57-0-2540-1867&r=x393&c=520×390/local/-/media/2016/06/10/Phoenix/Phoenix/636011590554327836-Tenderfoot-Fire-23.jpg
From left to right are; Bob Heckman, Chris Eaton, Scott Mayer and Ben Bernard ( the FF who just gave the on-camera interview ).
So I’m really beginning to wonder… is there an actual ‘S’ number course in the Wildland Firefighting catalog entitled “How to LIE about things that happen”…. and I have just ‘missed it’… or is there an actual TASKBOOK for that, or something?
Or is it really just part of other existing Wildland Firefighting courses like the ones for ‘FFT1’ and/or ‘FFT2’… or something?
Because when it comes to LYING… a LOT of these ‘Wildland Firefighters’ seem to just be extremely GOOD at it… ALL the time.
WTKTT,
I would not call these guys WLFFs. They are members of a local, mostly volunteer structural/hybrid department. They are battalion chiefs in training. As I said in the last chapter, these guys were born to do good PR and trained as firefighters. And what is PR but putting lipstick on a pig.
So what you are saying Muzzy..what we got here is a Muppet tied to strings..Miss Piggy..sitting in Dr office…new to this world. Figure you have appt you go in…but I am learning the patient..I mean patience game
Yup, that is why you are called a patient.
Reply to Muzzy post on June 16, 2016 at 8:55 am
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> I would not call these guys WLFFs.
Arizona Forestry does.
From the official page, on Arizona Forestry’s own Server, where they list ALL of the groups and agencies THEY consider ‘Wildland Fire Response Qualified and Ready’…
NOTE: Yarnell Fire Department is also listed as ‘Wildland Response Ready’.
https://azsf.az.gov/sections/wildland-response-groups
—————————————————————-
Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management
Wildland Response Groups
( snip)
Prescott Basin WRG ( Wildland Response Group )
Ashfork Fire
Central Yavapai Fire
Chino Valley Fire
Crown King Fire
Groom Creek Fire
Juniper Woods Fire
Peeples Valley Fire
Prescott Fire
Skull Valley Fire
Seligman Fire
Walker Fire
Williamson Valley Fire
Yarnell Fire
—————————————————————-
And… from the “Peeples Valley Fire Department” website itself…
http://users.commspeed.net/pvfdchief/
About Us
——————————————————————-
The Peeples Valley Fire Department started in September of 1993 when Bob Brandon and Jack Rauh recognized the Peeples Valley had no fire protection. The Congress fire department sold them their very first fire truck for a dollar, a 1953 ford structure truck. After a few minor repairs it was parked in front of Bob’s house with a sign that said “Volunteers needed!” The original volunteers that responded to the calls were Bob Brandon, Jack Rauh, Richard Harris, Raymond Harris, and Claud Ashby. Dispatch was handled at the Mountainaire Gas Station by Judy Garner. Recognizing that they needed training, they contacted Southern Yavapai fire department Chief Larry Lefort for help. They took the PVFD volunteers in and equipped them with used turnouts, SCBAs and radios. They provided the necessary training for both structure and wild land fires, enough so that Peeples Valley formally adopted the name of Southern Yavapai fire department station 2.
In order to raise funds for more equipment, they fought wildfires for the Arizona state land department.
Today, Pat McCray is fire chief and has dedicated many hours of his day to gaining new equipment for the department. Recently they purchased a new TYPE 6 firetruck from a station in Oklahoma and renovated an existing PVFD firetruck. The station currently has THREE type 6 wildland firetrucks, one watertanker, two structure trucks and a medical rescue rig.
——————————————————————-
Notable “quotes” from above…
“They ( Southern Yavapai Fire Department ) provided the necessary training for BOTH structure AND wild land fires.”
“In order to raise funds for more equipment, they fought wildfires for the Arizona state land department.”
“The station currently has THREE TYPE 6 WILDLAND firetrucks“
By the way… the following quote pretty much ‘nails’ the whole ‘suck the money out of the system’ problem, doesn’t it?…
In order to raise funds for more equipment, they fought wildfires for the Arizona state land department.”
Cha-Ching!
Just get the ‘Boy Scouts’ to pass your little local fire department off as ‘Wildland Response Qualified and Ready”… and now you have instant access to the CASH COW that is State/Federal ICS… and an EASY way to just RAISE MONEY without even needing all the bake sales and horse-rides.
Hi WTKTT,
I get it that working with the Feds is lucrative. There are for profit contractors who have fielded unqualified workers on fires this year (check out SAFENET). If they were fully qualified, I would have little concern, unless they start lobbying for special treatment or higher reimbursements, and the like. My concern here is exclusively about the qualifications.
When I say WLFF, I am distinguishing a between a fully qualified crew member from a unit like the Geronimo IHC and one of the pink carded hybrid FFs who don’t have that kind of training. I get that these pink-carded guys are hired on by NIFC to fight fires, but I think we have established that they are not qualified.
there are lots of jobs that require skills that cannot be assessed with a paper test or oral exam. Doctors, scientists, chefs, plumbers all have a system of training and evaluation by other professionals. Hotshots, at least the ones in FS, BIA, NPS, etc. seem to have this tradition of training (those in the know should feel free to correct me). Professional structural FFs also have this tradition, with rigorous training, probation and continued evaluation. It feels like the hybrid guys don’t have that strong training commitment.
I don’t mean to disparage VFDs or VFFs. I’m sure they’re doing their best. 70% of FFs are volunteers. But I don’t think they should be playing at Type 1 work, any more than the candystripers should be changing IVs in the hospital. Remember the big explosion in West, TX? Fourteen (I think) VFFs died in part because they were not expecting and were not prepared for an extreme Hazmat situation.
If Hotshots recognized their own skills and knowledge, they might be more willing to demand that others they work with and under be equally qualified. The true WLFFs need to clean house, as Woodsman says. But, $$$…
**
** THE ACTUAL ORIGIN OF THE ‘TENDERFOOT FIRE’
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 15, 2016 at 6:21 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> this what I asked in FOIAS…
>>
>> ( snip )
>>
>> What is the originated gps coordinates of the tenderfoot fire because map
>> I got from team 3 is inaccurate to eyewitness accounts and not that close
>> to town and down by the old cattle guards between town and Stanton
Joy… have a look at the following photo.
It’s a ‘still image’ from the video footage that was being shot by ABC 15 News Helicopter ‘Air 15’ as it was approaching Yarnell from the EAST ( from the Phoenix area ), the afternoon of Wednesday, June 8, 2016, not long after the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ had first been reported that afternoon.
So the VIEW in this photo is looking from the EAST and TOWARDS the WEST, back OVER ‘Y’ Mountain and ‘Antelope Peak’ ( where the celltowers were ), and TOWARDS Yarnell there on the other side of ‘Y’ Mountain.
The MANUAL ‘backburns’ ( or backfires or burnouts or whatever ) had already been started all along ‘Crest Way’, and THAT is the ‘majority’ of the smoke being seen in the BACKGROUND of the photo, on the WEST side of ‘Y’ mountain and ‘Antelope peak’ ( where the celltowers were ).
But look at the smoke column in the FOREGROUND there on the EAST site of ‘Antelope Peak’.
THAT is the actual ‘origin’ of the fire and the ‘origin’ of the smoke that was first seen rising on the EAST side of ‘Y’ Mountain and Antelope peak.
http://media2.abc15.com/photo/2016/06/08/KNXV%20Tenderfoot%20Fire%20Air15%20F_1465435900780_39888670_ver1.0_640_480.jpg
The small bit of ‘dirt road’ that is visible there in the very lower left corner of the photograph is part of ‘Mina Road’.
That ‘smoke column’ there in the foreground is NOWHERE NEAR Yarnell itself, and way on the EAST side of ‘Y’ mountain, and burning to the ‘Northwest’ ( and not even TOWARDS Yarnell ).
EVERY smoke/fire in THAT photo is the part the eyewitnesses state when they saw fire clouds there was ONE smoke column over by the cattle guard which is not in photo THEN within ten minutes the view over by Yarnell area had smoke all of a sudden and seem not right and that is why I am stating in that photo shown had nothing at all to do with “origin” fire/smoke eyewitness saw at cattle guard between Stanton and Yarnell—\
I hope you understand once barricades are up I can go out and take pics of origin area but right now just too many folks out there—
ok…I have some health stuff to do but soon I will get down there and give this some more added clarity of “origin” from eyewitness and that publics work lady can help there too for he said she was present there along with the hotshots that followed him…and others—
so in time get more clarity but photo provided has nothing to do with origin fire as reported by quite a few that were on that side—
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> so in time get more clarity but photo provided has nothing to do
>> with origin fire as reported by quite a few that were on that side.
Joy… photographs don’t lie.
Whether or not that foreground ‘smoke column’ seen there in this photo on the far EAST side of ‘Y’ mountain and ‘Antelope Peak’ is what others are reporting to you… it is still THERE. It’s REAL… and seems to be point of origin for a lot of the smoke that is seen in other early photos rising from that EASTERN SLOPE on the EAST side of ‘Antelope Peak’.
If this was ARSON… then yea… I suppose it’s highly likely someone ( or multiple someones ) might have been cruising along ‘Mina Road’ and lighting MULTIPLE spot fires.
Please be patient wwtktt…let me ask what time that photo was you provided? Before 2pm?
First off the very first time I heard for cattle guard area the first noted “origin” is 1:45pm
So what is the time on that photo you provided and yes both the hikers do feel comfortable with Alan’s map and your assessment of that being a lot of fuel and very thick funneled like canyon and heavily black now but not origin because to me origin says where it all began and it was reported elsewhere by eyewitnesses not in your photo a d I will dig deeper after colon stuff tomorrow. I just put foia in for yarnell LLC water…found it interesting… and send you private email…on that…
Joy… I’m not ignoring your question.
I’m trying to nail down an EXACT time for that ‘Sky 15’ Helicopter photo.
There’s no doubt it was later in the afternoon ( and AFTER all those manual burnouts has been started all along Crest Way… since that is where all that BACKGROUND smoke is coming from )… but I’m trying to nail down the EXACT time it was taken.
Oh…and one more thing. I picked that particular print screen photo of Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Ben Palm because he looks like he’s getting ready for the money shot.
FUCK YOU Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Ben Palm…AKA Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Ben D’over!
Yeah…I couldn’t go without at least one F-Bomb. I guess it’s true. You can take the hotshot out of the back-of-the-hotshot crew carrier, but you will never take the back-of-hotshot crew carrier out of the (former) hotshot.
Little old ladies all over Yarnell just fainted…
very true Muzzy 🙂
Believe me…anyone who “gets” that comment will NOT faint. They will laugh. They may not admit they laughed…but they laughed.
But think of all the guff poor Joy and Sonny have to take from the locals!
I have to admit…the last fire YES…thus fire people are asking people his can we reach the hikers we have stuff to tell them…so this fire we have had better reception EVEN from some in the crony field…they are either awakening or saw the same as on the scene eyewitness… Strange I’m not candidate for surgery yet but flushing lots of water…do a gastro grafin thing than try again…
For non-AZ readers: new fire Cedar Creek, on Apache land south of Show Low.
It’s not on inciweb yet. Started today, currently Type 3 IC at 3000 acres. Ordered a Type 1 team, expected tomorrow afternoon. 89 personnel currently. Pre-evacuation for towns north (and east?). Highway 60 is closed south of Show Low.
Evacuations ordered for Forestdale. See 12news dot com
It’s on inciweb now. Type 1 team to take over at noon:
http://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dispatch_logistics/overhead/imt/Rosters/SWA_ROSTERS_Type_1_Team_2.pdf.
A few familiar names…
Reply to Muzzy post on June 16, 2016 at 10:45 am
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> A few familiar names…
Yep. In addition to his ‘promotion’ to actual ‘Battalion Chief’ for Central Yavapai… looks like Todd Abel gets to play with the ‘big boys and girls’ ( Type 1 ) now.
So Todd Abel has now joined the official ‘triple dipper’ club.
1. Full-package retirement from CYFD.
2. Rehired as a salaried ‘Battalion Chief’
3. Job-out to Type 1 Wildfire Incidents.
Cha-Ching.
Probably has a few new rifles and a 4 wheeler now for all those Elk Hunts he is constantly going on.
Todd Abel has BEEN an OPSC on a type 1 team.
Reply to Woodsman post on June 16, 2016 at 2:54 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Todd Abel has BEEN an OPSC on a type 1 team.
Do you recall WHEN he did his first rodeo as a Type 1 Team OPS?
On August 22, 2013, when ADOSH was reviewing Abel’s red-card quals at the start of his interview… he was only rated a ‘Type 2 OPS’.
When did he get qualified to be OPS on “The Big Shows”?
You would have to find the archived rosters for type 1 teams in the SW to figure that out. I can only tell you he has been a T1 OPSC since at least the full 2015 season. Or you can attempt to locate his quals in IQS. Sorry I can’t help more than that.
Woodsman
Copy that. I was actually more curious about WHO was ‘signing off’ on Abel’s ‘Type 1 OPS’ Taskbook… and who the ‘final evaluator’ might have been… but I’ll keep looking for that info.
There’s no doubt that Todd Abel was already ‘double dipping’ out of retirement by contracting out as ‘DIVS’ and ‘Type 2 OPS’ even before ( and during ) the Yarnell Hill Fire.
What put him into the elite “Triple Dipper” club was when he was hired by the same Fire Agency he retired from ( CYFD ) as a full-salaried ‘Battalion Chief’ just shortly after Gary Cordes retired as a ‘Battallion Chief’… not long after the Yarnell Hill Fire.
I have no basis for proclaiming this as fact (that he helped sign his taskbook) but Willis is at a higher level in the system than Abel, so…….
Of course I could say the same for Sciacca, who is at a higher level in the system than Willis. Look at the S AZ fire academy, it’s like one big happy family.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
June 17, 2016 at 10:51 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I have no basis for proclaiming this as
>> fact (that he helped sign his taskbook)
>> but Willis is at a higher level in the
>> system than Abel, so…….
>>
>> Of course I could say the same for
>> Sciacca, who is at a higher level in the
>> system than Willis. Look at the S AZ
>> fire academy, it’s like one big happy family.
You are closer to the truth than you think.
See a longer ‘Reply’ ( with details ) above….
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-339792
And another thing:
It appears to me to be one great big giant revolving door in SW AZ between USFS, AZ Forestry, city fire departments. & BLM. Retire from one, go to another, Hell, retire from 2 and work as an AD in second retirement on wildfires. Nice paycheck if you can get it.
It’s like a huge soap opera of who worked where…
It’s like a West Virginia family tree, one stem. (Apology’s to the fine folks of the hills of WV, it’s a beautiful state!)
And another, another thing:
When reviewing the meeting minutes from the CAWRT I distinctly recall several items focused on the topic of taskbooks, red cards, and BILLING. It doesn’t take long to put a big dent in the cost of a type 6 engine if you can get it out staffed on fire assignments.
The buddy buddy system is pervasive nationwide but AZ seems to have taken it to a much higher level.
ICS & All-Hazard……….bastards! Not to mention, FEMA!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Bringing this up out of weeds for you:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-340625
“Woodsman,
Regarding your post concerning your subjective determination that I have ‘culminated into the appearance of a shill,” I would ask once again, WTF are you talking about this time?
And I would tell you to ESAD.”
Yeah…I’m sorry Rocksteady, I just can’t do it. After reviewing today’s posts and links about the Tenderfoot Fire I had to urgently call my doctor again to adjust my meds in order to cope with what I am seeing and reading. Unfortunately…my doctor informed me that if she upped my meds any more they would either kill me or make me permanently brain dead. I am thinking about doing it anyway.
It’s either that or smash my computer so I will quit coming to this blog and looking. Looking at this blog is not like looking at a car crash as you go by…it’s like looking at a horrible passenger train wreck, passenger airplane and sightseer bus crash that somehow all happened in one place, at the same time, in an alternate universe where they all managed to crash into each other.
This is because this blog has done a great job of documenting where wildland firefighting came from, what it once was, what it has become and even worse…where it is going and what it will look like in the future.
I have done what I can to document exactly what the problem is on my website, although without reading this blog in its entirety first, these photos are not going to mean very much to anyone. Fortunately…there are enough of you who have been on this blog’s equivalent of Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride as we have followed the White Rabbit down the rabbit hole and through the looking glass that you will get it…and that is enough for me.
Photograph 1…Is the face of the man that denied me access to the site of the Yarnell Hill Fire to enable me to do research for my book. He looks so happy because he is getting ready to explain to his grateful community how he saved their town by igniting “backburns” in the wrong place, at the wrong time, in the wrong way, with the wrong people, who had either the wrong training or none at all and were not qualified by any stretch of the imagination to do anything more than they did…burn down somebody’s garage as they almost burned down some houses while they tried their best to kill themselves and failed through no fault of their own.
Photograph 2…This is the face of the hybrid firefighter and the future of wildland firefighting in wildland urban interface zones. I don’t need to say anything else…this photograph and his face say’s it all.
Photographs 3…see the explanation for photograph number one…OMG
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
Fred…God bless you my brother from another mother! You have found your true calling in life. Building, training, defending, promoting and covering up for the Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters through your Central Arizona Wildland Response Team. It is a GREAT retirement gig. You have done well my old friend.
Bob…God bless you my brother from another mother! You have found your true calling in life, telling those who come to this blog how it used to be while defending Fred and what he is doing…read what Fred is doing in the previous paragraph.
I really am going to try my best to finish my book, “Betrayed by Our Fire Gods”, because the wildland firefighters of today and tomorrow really should know their history and how it used to be because those glory days are gone forever. They were killed off by those who created the Incident Command System while they simultaneously destroyed the Large Fire Organization.
In addition…I really am going to try and finish my book, “The Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters”, to document when and how it went so horribly wrong. Nothing will make any difference now, especially congressional hearings because the congress of today can’t even get together to things that are simple and no-brainers…and fixing what has become of the wildland firefighting industrial complex would be a monumental undertaking.
Nor will creating a retired and former wildland firefighter’s association. The smokejumpers can do it because they are a small group who all had, and continue to have similar goals and aspirations. A general wildland firefighter’s association couldn’t even agree on where to have lunch, much less make any changes in where wildland firefighting is and even worse…where it is going which it to hell in a hand basket. If you have any question on that…please re-read what Fred and Bob are up to above. They are the faces of that new and frighting dilemma. That is all…carry on.
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don’t feel so bad..Nancy Cameron tells me BUS LOADS of firefighting vehicles go pass her place all the time towards the Helms area some labelled TRAINING on the vehicle so maybe this web site/blog did some good and listen to Sonny and they use the area to train firefighters- and don’t feel bad Gary- Dr. Ted Putnam ended up going with 2 characters- the eyewitnesses (us) because he could not get in with Chief Ben Palm either but a certain person who did not like the guys got through to site— go figure— that’s life….
so I have some updates-
As for Denise Roggio- she told me firsthand the news going around IS rumor yet one of the ladies took the time out to show where they came to their source today at 3:40pm and it was some type of social media footage/writing by Denise Roggio and so I can see how the ladies got the idea…Harley was mentioned and so on…old truck and so on…misperceptions.
But now for the FOIAS- I did many today and officially with tracking did CYFD and sent my minimum ten bucks too and sase blank cd but they said they can come back and ask appx hundred dollars depending on research- next was local YFD was emailed a few times and went in person and the staff never heard of FOIA open Arizona public records request forms so they were to get back to me and they never did so I went ahead and sent a trackable request today too-
Now for the 4 quads- making some lee way—I was told by locals the man I am looking for is named Tracey with the truck and the eyewitness accounts are growing.
I asked Lynne LaMaster of e news a z.c om if they had any early on footage on the tenderfoot fire in Yarnell as we are investigating any early pics of 4 quads to squash local horrendous discussions and her reply Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 1:00 PM—> “I don’t know who you are, and as a private party, I don’t really have any obligation to comply with this request.” Lynne LaMaster editor@ enews az. com 928.458.5119
I had my full name and location on the email ???
a local asked me what I asked and I said I would post it public so she can see it here:
this what I asked in FOIAS—>
Do you know if all these guys are red carded on 6-8-16 that was in position on the Yarnell LLC/Maughan Ranch/Paula Sweatts properties/Yarnell Mining/Coastal Communications/ Crown Atlantic/State Land/BLM? How was Brandie McKiddie notified about the loss of her buildings (in person/by mail/by call?) Were the folks fighting the fire under the command of their own department at the time, or were they under one local fire chief or a DIVS/OPS from the BLM team? and at what exact time did local dept give it to BLM/Forestry? would you call your plan Structure protection within the City limits? Burnout? or backfiring operations but in media Chief Ben Palm not educated not enough to comprehend the proper term is not back burn at all so what is the proper fire terminology you would place to actions done on 6-8-16 initial attack and for the next 12 hours when I stopped watching it the first day 2:43am? I need the public records of number one how many incoming calls your dept received on tenderfoot fire and time frames of the first 33 calls and areas of those incoming calls. Did any of those incoming calls have reported fire in Stanton area or anywhere on Yarnell Y side of Antelope Peak in the very early calls or just smoke seen? Any 911 calls/Fire Dept calls for quads seen? (I know the answer is YES just trying to find which organization got that call) I also was told by squad boss hotshot about the volunteer dept some important details. I also want to ask the local fire dept before the BLM took over how come after the sensitivity of the last fire you did not make a decent dozer break between the legion and dollar general store and behind certain homes? or create hand lines? Why did you opt to burn so near to structures? When was the slurry drops ordered and by whom and how much was officially dropped? Has any of you been educated by a chemical engineer/science expert yet of the current use of slurry drops so near to structures/humans and the long term health affect yet? and the current deaths in Yarnell from last fire by placing a map of WHERE drops were made than layer it over with the deaths- have you seen it yet? List of names who were the volunteers who did this back burn action? who was the assigned local YFD dispatcher that took the calls- people said Denise said she was in the news as saying she was dispatcher taking calls- is that facts? was there others? I would like to clarify “rumors” to facts and that was one and another is what time did Eric Marsh’s long time best friend Alan Sinclair become officially in charge of the tenderfoot fire and then released you/your dept- What is the originated gps coordinates of the tenderfoot fire because map I got from team 3 is inaccurate to eyewitness accounts and not that close to town and down by the old cattle guards between town and Stanton- I know as the desert walker on 20c you go a ways out legally to cover that area (*00-20-0492 s13-t10n-r05w meets your non-covered area s18-t10n-r04w- who made the decision to take newly trained wildland trained folks and let BLM Federal take control? when did the communications tower start burning? Be careful on answering that for I witnessed it with a Yavapai county employee but I want confirmation when you noticed it on fire and how do you feel that area started on fire? Again be careful on your assessment but want confirmation of what we eyewitnessed- I saw you well covered happy way and crest way/table top way but after interviews can you confirm who was stationed at allen/young/white way? Has the fire reached Whitehead over at Walnut Grove? Has YFD or any organizations involved with fighting fire interviewed Stanton area folks? Can you tell me is this now another piece of the great Arizona that you all plan to do your restrictions to hike like you did on last Fire in which I have hiked for decades on/off but direct for almost 14 years now- just saying; gotta know- will need to add that map to my backpack next to Paxon and Payne and State Land’s for the Weavers- Was the Johnson’s mine to Devil Nest mine affected by this fire? Were any of the old stage rd residents warned of fire by your dept? what was your official time you started your burns? What was the initial plan attack the YFD took and did any other local fire depts assist? That’s my preliminary questions. I have been interviewing people from both sides of the Antelope Peak and I have a question- has your dept. yet interviewed anyone? I watched direct that fire from when Stephanie (928) 427-6447 called me as I was watching THE WALK (twin towers) Wed. June 8 I had a miss call 3:41 and 3:49pm and I turned head and saw it and called her back at 3:57pm as she asked me if I was going to evacuate and I was like “huh”—I told her I would run up the mountain/boulders across from her and grab some pics and report back to her but instead of meeting her first I met with a squad boss first and then hiked yesterday with a sheriff and sent him a map today of the spots to my photos were taken- I am more prepared to properly assess this fire then the missing elements last one- plus I learned the laws and foia act- so it helps to be educated-
who was the blonde female public works person down off Mina on to the old stage Road and their position on the tenderfoot fire? when did they arrive on the scene and how long were they positioned at that crucial point in the investigation of this fire?
I have blank cd disks to give you to put all the FOIA information on-
please notify where to mail or go in person with the disk-
thank you
Joy A. Collura
and it was directed to direct reported website contact fire dept fill in forms of the fire depts or to the following as well:
VisitUs @y-pvchamber. com,
peeplesvalleyfire @commspeed. net,
etemerowski@ wickenburgaz. org,
tchristofferson@ wickenburgaz. org,
dbrown@ wickenburgaz. org,
jbowie@ wickenburgaz. org,
FireDept@ glendaleaz. com,
SFreitag@ cazfire. org,
JPolacek@ cazfire. org,
SBliss@ cazfire. org,
dgarcia@ blm. gov,
web. public.works@ yavapai .us,
kelliesyfd@ aim. com,
skullvalleyfire@ gmail. com,
bhess@ fs.fed. us
if you see I missed anyone- let me know—some I did DO but they were direct to their website with a fill-in form-
parcel 203-07-037e Countrywide Communications on Willis Street in Prescott- owner stated at 5:18pm today he was told his area was not even touched but I have not been up there to confirm if it 15820 w happy way .5 acres burned or not but from down below it seems like it—it is a 2 way radio communications satellite who Yarnell Mining sold to him 16years ago-
Coast Communications/Yarnell Mining and Crown Atlantic have been reached and see their knowledge on the fire-
I had a local lawyer (crony) state that quite a few of the locals are pleased that Ben SAVED the town by his fast heroic actions so be very careful what you do or say- they may switch what you say and twist it to slander and yet I am the ONE trying to SQUASH horrendous local discussions by gathering FOIA documented facts versus perceptions—I am the one trying to QUICKLY gather the PROPER documents to share to locals WHAT IT IS—
these 4 quads are crucial for they were at the origin— the fire that began not near Yarnell—
so I will meet that person and find out what place he called may it be YCSO or fire dept or what he saw—
Now, I met with Larry and Patti McCracken ( h tt p:/ / ww w.dcourier.com/news/2013/jul/14/heirloom-ring-found-in-ruins-of-deadly-yarnell-hi/ )
and Keith and Arlene Miller, (a couple who lost home and Knapp valued their property for suit at $1,100,000) and let them know Knapp update—still awaiting date for oral argument… if any of you want to be PRESENT for the case for support and “bodies” I will post the date when it arrives— It should be quite interesting knowing all the behind the scenes information Knapp has received-
Next.
I do my colon thing tomorrow so catch you all when back near pc or a cell—I think I fried my cell today—oops…
OHHHH!!! also on this Friday if you want to see 135-140 firefighters of this Yarnell fire in one public spot- they are having a nice breakfast at the infamous Ranch House restaurant for them.
Thank you Joy…but I don’t really feel bad. That was…sarcasm.
Mine was said in sarcasm too…
Not really…
Whoops, posted this in the wrong place, but it is so FUCKING FUNNY that posting it twice is only half as much as it should be posted.
Gary Olson says
June 15, 2016 at 7:53 pm
Oh…and one more thing. I picked that particular print screen photo of Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Ben Palm because he looks like he’s getting ready for the money shot.
FUCK YOU Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Ben Palm…AKA Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Ben D’over!
Yeah…I couldn’t go without at least one F-Bomb. I guess it’s true. You can take the hotshot out of the back-of-the-hotshot crew carrier, but you will never take the back-of-hotshot crew carrier out of the (former) hotshot.
That’s too bad Gary…
I feel that yourself, Bob and RTS have a lot of “on the ground” fire experience that comes into play when other posters, who are not WFF start posting assumptions about how they envision things happening on a fire, but in reality its a whole different story.
Even something as terminology which was used on the Tenderfoot Fire… Burnoff, Backfire, Burnout, in the WFF world all have different meanings, when the term itself is easily confused with the non – WFF types.
Even to cloud the issue more, here in Canada we use those terms but here is what they mean.
Burnoff – Firing operation between a guard (man made or natural) and the fire edge itself. Usually a control tactic.
Burnout- Firing operation which removes islands or fingers of unburned fuel between the guard and the fire edge, where the fire may not have consumed them naturally. This reduces potential for spotting or escapes. More of a mop up tactic.
Backfire – Usually a firing operation that involves significant fire placed between 2 points in order to accomplish several goals. ie. Standing up a column to allow for air attack to get in and go direct attack on flank. Steering a column away from a resource that requires protection as it will not survive a direct flame front impact. Usually a higher risk operation that may or may not occur with long term planning, may be a “hail mary” spontaneous tactic that is required due to a wind shift.
To make it even simpler for our crews, we just call them “ignition operations” and then state the objective.
C’mon Gary, swallow your pride, bite your tongue and if you have an issue with Bob or Fred, get their email addresses and take it off line. No need to plug up the IM with your bickering and differences (petty or not so petty).
Or you can just tell me to “F@*k Off” and do as you please. 🙂
rocksteady… thank you for even MORE refinement of the ‘burn terms’… but something tells me at Incidents just about everywhere… guys are standing over the sandboxes and maps and drawing their fingers over an area and just saying…
“Let’s do a burn HERE”.
And everyone nods and knows exactly what to do.
Actually… I just thought of a hilarious ‘Saturday Night Live’ skit.
We see the ‘Incident Commander’ and a bunch of ‘Operations Sections Chiefs’ standing around a map in a shed somewhere… and they start arguing about whether the ‘manual ignition’ they want to do should be called a ‘backfire’, a ‘burnout’, a ‘burnup’, a ‘burndown’, a ‘burnsideways’, a ‘burn-doggie’… yada… yada… yada…
…and the whole time they are arguing about what to call it… we see in the background through the window of the shed people fleeing for their lives and the entire countryside is burning up and the flames are bearing down on the shed itself.
>> Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 14, 2016 at 6:34 pm
>>
>> That means the original fire was far enough away from Yarnell that the
>> YFD DID NOT have to begin ANY burn outs as they did.
Joy… there is absolutely NO DOUBT that the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ did NOT start anywhere near the southern end of ‘Crest Way’ in Yarnell.
It actually started WAY to the EAST… on the OTHER side of that mountain where the cell towers are located… and somewhere out near where Mina Road meets Antelope Creek ( and where that compound of structures sits out there all by itself off Mina Road ).
The only reason that garage + workshop burned down there at the MCKIDDIE residence at 22937 South Crest Way is because the firefighters fucked up the manual burnout they initiated there at that southern end of Crest Way.
There is both PHOTOGRAPHIC and VIDEO evidence of this, even beyond the still photographs taken by Yarnell Fire Department Adminstrator Denise Roggio.
One of the earliest known photos of the ‘Tenderfoot’ fire…
http://meredithaz.images.worldnow.com/images/10738468_G.jpg
NOTE: This image originally appeared in an early article about the Tenderfoot fire that appeared at Carolina FOX News Station 5. It has since been REMOVED from that News site but still exists inside the ‘Worldnow’ news organizations online photo storage database. The photo was never attributed to anyone in particular and the exact TIME it was taken is still unknown… but it was definitely taken shortly after the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ was first ‘spotted’ throwing smoke… and BEFORE all the manual burnouts began there near Yarnell.
The photo show the fire was originally burning on the far EAST side of that mountain where the cell towers are… out there almost where Mina Road meets Antelope Creek.
IMPORTANT: This same photo ALSO shows the SOUTH end of Crest Way ( in the lower left corner of the photo ) and the same MCKIDDIE residence with the garage + workshop that Denise Roggio would eventually show on fire in HER photo… taken later.
In this ‘early’ photo… the fire is nowhere near ‘Crest Way’ and no one had even ‘started’ the burnouts there on Crest Way, which would eventually set that garage + workshop on fire.
Now compare that photo above to the following VIDEO…
** VIDEO SHOWS ENGINE AND CREW ‘ESCAPING’ FROM THE FLAMES
The following VIDEO was taken just moments after Denise Roggio took her still photo of the flames from the manual-burnout already engulfing the MCKIDDE garage + workshop.
It only got worse… and the following VIDEO shows the Firefighters who there in the MCKIDDIE driveway trying to quickly SAVE the ‘Type 6 Engine’ and themselves, from being burned up…
Fox News – Carolina – Station 5
http://www.foxcarolina.com/clip/12507066/town-of-yarnell-threatened-by-tenderfoot-fire
At +50 seconds into this video… we suddenly see footage of the manual burnouts raging at the south end of Crest Way, around the MCKIDDIE residence.
The wind is blowing HARD. Flame lengths are HUGE.
At +55 seconds into this video… we see the Type 6 Brush Engine that had pulled into the driveway of the MCKIDDIE residence, at 22937 South Crest Way attempting to haul-ass backwards OUT of that driveway and AWAY from the now flaming garage… and the engine itself is almost being ‘licked’ by the flames as it tries to get out of there.
The ‘Engine’ trying to haul ass ‘backwards’ out of the driveway appears to be ‘Engine 54’ of the Peeples Valley Fire Department. A flatbed-style Type 6 Brush truck. The ‘zig-zag’ white stripe on the side with the logo on the passenger door side matches.
It matches a photo of Peeples Valley Fire Department Engine 54 ( E-54 ) as seen in a one that Peeples Valley Firefighter Scott E. Mayer posted to the Peeples Valley Fire Department’s PUBLIC Facebook page. E-54 is sitting right there on the left side of the photo as Firefighter Scott Mayer takes a ‘selfie’ inside the Peeples Valley Fire Station garage.
In the VIDEO… we also see at least one Firefighter RUNNING down the driveway ON FOOT ( with, apparently, just Khakis and a blue T-Shirt on ) to escape the wind-driven flames coming right at him.
After we see both the Type 6 Engine and the Firefighters trying to “get the flock out of there”… the camera then pans to the RIGHT ( to the SOUTH ) and we see the extent of the burnouts that had just been manually lit there at the south end of Crest Way.
All of the FLAMES seen in this VIDEO, including the flames burning down the MCKIDDIE garage + workshop, are a result of the ‘manual burnouts’ that were set… and had NOTHING to do with the actual origin of the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ itself… way out there on Mina Road, on the OTHER side of the celltower mountain.
They ( the firefighters initiating the manual burnouts near Yarnell ) SCREWED UP.
Followup…
There are LOTS of photos ( including Helicopter Air 15 footage ) which shows that actual ORIGIN of the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ was on the EAST side of that celltower mountain… out there almost where Mina Road meets Antelope Creek ( and near that little ‘ranch’ that sits out there all by itself ).
The reason I chose THIS photograph above…
http://meredithaz.images.worldnow.com/images/10738468_G.jpg
…is because that really is the MCKIDDIE residence itself there in the lower left of the photograph, out at 22937 South Crest Way… including those ‘tall trees’ and the soon-to-be-destroyed-by-the-manual-burnouts ‘pinkish’ colored garage + workshop on the south side of their property.
From the Yavapai County Tax Assesor PUBLIC Online Database
Parcel Number: 203-08-046C
Street Address: 22937 South Crest Way, Yarnell, AZ, 85362
Owner: MCKIDDIE DAN & BRANDI RS
Owner’s Mailing Address: PO BOX 23, YARNELL, AZ, 85362-0023
So that one photograph alone shows that the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ did NOT ‘sneak around’ the south side of the celltower mountain and suddenly ‘attack’ the south side of Crest Way.
ALL of that FIRE that would soon appear there on the EAST side of town would be coming from the manual-burnouts someone decided to start there at the SOUTH end of Crest Way… and they fucked up.
They started the ‘manual burnouts’ WAAAY too close to the structures there… and they let the ‘burnouts’ get away from them.
And so the first structure to be destroyed in the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ was because of THEIR screw-ups… and not the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ itself.
Also… ALL of the property there just EAST of ‘Crest Way’ that would eventually be engulfed in these ‘manual burnouts’ pretty much belonged to just one landowner…
The large parcel to the south and southeast of the MCKIDDIE property where the garage and workshop burned, and where the manual burnouts appear to have been STARTED belongs to…
Parcel Number: 203-08-078L
Owner: SWEATT PAULA
Owner Address: PO BOX 4583, CAMP VERDE, AZ, 86322
And she ALSO owns ALL of the parcels of land to the EAST of Crest Way going north, almost all the way to the north end of Yarnell.
By the way… all of the MEDIA was reporting that the fire started on BLM land ( and that this was always a ‘BLM’ managed fire )… but the same photo also seems to show that was absolutely NOT the case.
The fire appears to have actually started on Arizona State Trust Land, and not BLM land.
Parcel Number: APN: 800-20-049Z
And then it mostly burned to the Northeast and onto a HUGE parcel of land owned by ( guess who )…
Parcel Number: 203-12-001
Owner: MAUGHAN REX & RUTH
Owner Mailing Address: PO BOX 29041, PHOENIX, AZ, 85038-9041
There was/is only ONE small parcel of BLM land sitting out there… pretty much in the middle of MAUGHAN’s property…
Parcel Number: APN: 800-05-006G
That above talk is not the origin and I now have more than one eyewitness account that the origin happen pass Mina down old stage road pass their dumb barricades and all the way…yes all the way towards Stanton by the old cattle guard…origin DID NOT happen where you state before but I do have a couple eyewitness accounts in regards to coastal communications tower burning and no way was it part of the origin…nope…I skimmed above because right now I am shaken and broken and terribly sad…I have not stopped trying to think of other stuff and I think of all the hard hours my father and his pals put in to make the NY Twin Towers to have human destruction and that is what I am seeing here. I have all the foias needed in right now and I am on it interviewing as many as I can while fresh and I was OK when I got map and was kinda pissed person had to come in my path yesterday after getting the map doing a good Yarnell group meditation session and I was so happy and renewed than to listen to the account for almost one hour…it changed .e forever… I am not the same person anymore…so choked in throat my nose nonstop running and my eyes flooding and so darn broken
Thanks and when on PC I will reply better but nope to your origin wwtktt
Followup 2…
I wrote above…
——————————————————————————————
Fox News – Carolina – Station 5
http://www.foxcarolina.com/clip/12507066/town-of-yarnell-threatened-by-tenderfoot-fire
At +55 seconds into this video… we see the Type 6 Brush Engine that had pulled into the driveway of the MCKIDDIE residence, at 22937 South Crest Way attempting to haul-ass backwards OUT of that driveway and AWAY from the now flaming garage… and the engine itself is almost being ‘licked’ by the flames as it tries to get out of there.
The ‘Engine’ trying to haul ass ‘backwards’ out of the driveway appears to be ‘Engine 54’ of the Peeples Valley Fire Department. A flatbed-style Type 6 Brush truck. The ‘zig-zag’ white stripe on the side with the logo on the passenger door side matches.
It matches a photo of Peeples Valley Fire Department Engine 54 ( E-54 ) as seen in a one that Peeples Valley Firefighter Scott E. Mayer posted to the Peeples Valley Fire Department’s PUBLIC Facebook page. E-54 is sitting right there on the left side of the photo as Firefighter Scott Mayer takes a ‘selfie’ inside the Peeples Valley Fire Station garage.
———————————————————————————-
Here is a direct link to that ‘selfie’ photo that Peeples Valley Firefighter Scott E. Mayer took, which appears to show the same ‘Engine 54 Type 6 Brush Truck’ seen in the VIDEO hauling ass backwards out of the MCKIDDIE driveway just sitting in the Peeples Valley Fire Station Garage…
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153384837229207&set=a.29570064206.35810.752644206&type=3&theater
Followup 3…
Joy… here is that same VIDEO link that YOU posted, which is showing Denise Roggio’s own ‘still’ photos of the MCKIDDIE garage + workshop engulfed in flames… and has Denise Roggio herself describing what she saw to the News Anchors…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiToOl7rjqA
At the start of this ‘Breaking News’ video, we are seeing a ‘still’ photograph taken by Yarnell Resident Denise Roggio at the southernmost end of Crest Way on the EAST side of Yarnell.
She is standing just south of the driveway of the MCKIDDIE residence which is that last home on the southern end of Crest Way. The photograph was taken looking EAST, at the MCKIDDIE property.
The GARAGE + WORKSHOP that was there by the home is NOW completely engulfed in flames coming from the manual-burnout itself.
And here is the conversation taking place at the start of the video…
———————————————————————————–
News Anchor: Is that a HOME? What… what was it that you sent that… that photograph in of?
Denise Roggio: You know… at first I thought it was a home… but my husband informed me that was their garage. So I believe it was a very large garage… but… uh… yea… that happened with a change of wind. The firefighters were obviously doin’ their… uh… backburn… which is… and then the wind TOOK IT and it went right to that house… went right to that property. So it’s a garage, I believe. I don’t believe anyone’s home has burned.
———————————————————————————–
So Yarnell Fire Department Administrator Denise Roggio herself was standing RIGHT THERE while all this was happening ( and taking photos )… and there was NO DOUBT in her mind what she was witnessing… and WHY it was happening…
“The firefighters were obviously doin’ their… uh… backburn… which is… and then the wind TOOK IT and it went right to that house.”
The VIDEO I posted a link to above of the ‘same event’ was taken just moments after Denise Roggio took HER ‘still photograph’… and shows those firefighters scrambling to save both that Peeples Valley E-54 Brush truck… AND themselves… from getting burned up.
Can you imagine if what we are seeing in that video had actually turned into a ‘burnover’ incident… or if any of those FFs had been killed or injured there around the MCKIDDIE residence?
That there would have to have been ANOTHER “Fatality” investigation for ANOTHER Yarnell area fire?
I’m sure glad it didn’t happen… but as the VIDEO shows… it easily COULD have.
And… check out this happy horseshit… from Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm… just 48 hours ago….
Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm talks about recent ( Tenderfoot ) wildfire.
Published on June 13, 2016…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA1AXjRlmwo
In the VIDEO interview… Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm says…
“We were on the fire in something like 3 minutes.
All the local agencies came right away.
We actually backburned.. and we were able kept the heat off the structures.”
Well… except for the ones you actually BURNED DOWN in the process.
BTW… if anyone wants to contact this ‘Fire Chief’ and educate HIM about the use
of the term ‘backburn’ ( his word ) versus ‘burnout’… here you go…
Chief Ben Palm
Yarnell Fire Department
Fire Administration Building
22555 N. Hwy 89
P.O. Box 581
Yarnell, AZ 85362
928.427.6578
WHAT THE F…….?
SERIOUSLY?
My Old educated statement—
THIS WAS A BACKFIRING OPERATION NOT IN ANY WAY A BURNOUT.
This was a very poor managed Firing operation with the fire to far away to pull the Back fire to the main fire with way to much wind blowing from the side rather than up the mountain.
Not enough equipment or manpower to protect structures.
They would have been better served to have burned around the Garage and home before starting the BACKFIRE.
BURNOUT and BACKBURN are not what was going on here it was a BACK FIRING operation with little or no plan. Executed by people that did not know what they were doing. The main fire was dictating the spread not the Firing operation.
Hmm, from the looks of things (lack of proper gear, truck not positioned for evac, closeness to structures), I would be surprised if the participants had any idea what they were trying to do or what it was called….
And regardless of what it was CALLED… if the MCKIDDIE’s insurance company sees that video… they might very well DENY their damage claim and tell them they are going to need to SUE the fire departments for the ‘damages’… since THEY are obviously the ones that CAUSED the damage.
Might as well have been ‘arson’.
Or… ‘Arson as a result of depraved indifference’.
Remember… “depraved indifference” is that legal term that always makes a crime or civil complaint more serious than at first glance. That term can be applied to any ‘event’ where the participants SHOULD have KNOWN what COULD have happened… but didn’t care… and didn’t take the necessary precautions to prevent it.
That’s why… if Eric Marsh had survived on June 30,2013, he most likely would NOT have just been charged with plain “Negligent Homicide or Manslaughter”. He, of all people, SHOULD have known what COULD happen ( and DID ) that day to the men he was responsible for… so it would have likely been the more serious charge(s) of “Negligent Homicide or Manslaughter… WITH depraved indifference”.
Reply to Bob Powers post on June 15, 2016 at 8:13 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> My Old educated statement—
>>
>> THIS WAS A BACKFIRING OPERATION
>> NOT IN ANY WAY A BURNOUT.
Well… I’ll let you and RTS argue that one.
He disagrees with you.
>> On June 13, 2016 at 7:43 pm, Robert the Second (RTS) said…
>>
>> Joy, you’re claiming that the video shows her own
>> “building” burning, yet i in the video she states it’s
>> a neighbor’s garage. She claims it’s from the firefighters
>> losing a “backburn” around it.
>>
>> First, no such WFF term as a ‘backburn’, it’s burnout.
>>
>> Second, one would have to be pretty untrained and/or
>> inexperienced to actually lose a burnout in those light
>> fuels, especially with Engines right there.
Yep. See the video above.
Your tax dollars at work.
Still my point a BURNOUT is setting fire to burn back to the Fire head/burn area, but not at the distance they were burning.
A burnout can also clean up unburned fuel between the line and the Fire edge.
Similar to what the GM crew was attempting to do when dropped on by Air Tanker on the Yarnell Hill Fire. Cleaning up small islands to secure the line.
A BACK FIRE uses a fire line or Road to ignite from and as it burns to the Fire with the wind behind it or the slope in its favor the two fires meet each other. A back fire is used to increase the Fire line before the main fire gets to the line in a head that will jump the Fire Line.
In either case you need the Wind and weather in your favor you need the slope in your favor. You need to pre prep areas that have structures first to protect them before you start the Back fire or burn out.
The main point is the wind was blowing in the wrong direction across the mountain instead of up it. It took off and got to the structure /Garage before the Engine crew could do any thing about it.
The various departments involved in the firing operation must have sold all of their municipal engines so they went all type 6 because it’s the best rolling stock available for protecting a structure. They went pure type 6 because they figured out that they can make money on this deal (federal wildfire money) instead of the big trucks costing them money.
Woodsman
Reply to Bob Powers post on June 15, 2016 at 6:36 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A BACK FIRE uses a fire line or Road to ignite
>> from and as it burns to the Fire with the wind
>> behind it or the slope in its favor the two fires
>> meet each other. A back fire is used to increase
>> the Fire line before the main fire gets to the
>> line in a head that will jump the Fire Line.
Well… then regardless of Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm himself telling the media it was a ‘Backburn’… I think that WAS the ‘scenario’ they had in mind.
They ( WHO? ) apparently INTENDED to just ‘light up’ that ENTIRE western slope of ‘Y’ mountain, and ( I guess ) hoped that it would meet that other fire burning on the EAST side of ‘Y’ mountain up there on the peak of the ridge, or something.
>> Bob Powers
>>
>> In either case you need the Wind and weather
>> in your favor you need the slope in your favor.
I suppose they ( WHO? ) will also say they thought they had that ‘in their pocket’ as well. Winds ‘kinda-sorta’ blowing AWAY from town, still some daylight left, etc. etc.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You need to pre prep areas that have structures
>> first to protect them before you start the Back
>> fire or burn out.
Didn’t happen.
We can SEE that the MCKIDDIE garage + workshop structure was the first one they toasted… but so far there are no accurate reports about the OTHER 2 structures that burned.
If they were anywhere near ‘Crest Way’… then they, too, were victims of the ‘backburn’ and not the original fire spotted on the EAST side of ‘Y’ mountain and ‘Antelope Peak’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The main point is the wind was blowing in the
>> wrong direction across the mountain instead
>> of up it. It took off and got to the structure / Garage
>> before the Engine crew could do any thing about it.
Yes. That’s what happened.
And if the OTHER 2 known ‘burned structures’ were also along that ‘line’ they were firing up along Crest Way… then
Structures burned by original fire: ZERO
Structures burned by manual operations: THREE.
WTKTT,
Do you know if all these guys are red carded? Were they under the command of their own department at the time, or were they under a DIVS/OPS from the BLM team?
My bet they were doing Structure protection within the City limits.
Someone directed by maybe the BLM was setting the Back fire. or maybe not.
Who was in charge is a good question. Were they freelancing on their own?
THEY certainly did not know how to secure the structures first. That is what a Back Burn/Burn Out is not lighting the whole mountain on fire first.
Bob Powers
This began under the newly town heroic fire chief who most do not know Oct 2013 he was JUST a EMT out of Prescott Valley and was simply placed in his position and gave a decent rental property with a brand new hummer who would later be trained and funny by same man who took over control if this fire and long time best friend to Eric Marsh…Alan Sinclair… This firing operation happened smack behind homes and further up hill on Yarnell Water LLC and Paula Sweatts land near Brandie…I want to know if doing structure protection local does he need a red card? I barely went to sleep finally at six but yes I am interviewing many when I had given up when I got the Alan map but Jimmy had to be in my space yesterday with his account so I placed more foias…I laid and thought HOW MUCH both fires has cost us in foias… Strange… I just won’t quit because I learned a new fire account who lives next to Helms and appx 3am she emailed and thanked me for caring…so once you walk with me on the streets and see how many accounts I directly helped…you just won’t stop finding clarity. It took a lot to admit my always posting as I get it vs in a notebook than finding answers than reporting it and to see it and admit it that in some ways it was wrong to do it that way but also with my health I did it that way so I knew at all times at least one had the information.. I have to run…interviews to do
Red Cards are issued by FEDS to State County and City to Wild Land Trained Fire Fighters when they have at a minimum met the First 40 in wild land fire training. After that they must pass the S-courses and on the job training to advance to higher positions.
The City Fire Departments have their own training for Volunteers with in their city training. Structure fires etc.. The FF within the City limits did not have to meet Red Card Certification. Most City’s cross train if they are in a Urban interface, So I would think that had occurred although they may not have been Red Carded for fires outside the City. It is a catch 22 at times.
I’m not sure the fact that we seem to definitely see Peeples Valley Fire Department Engine 54 ( E-54 ) hauling-ass backwards out of that MCKIDDIE residence driveway means that the Peeples Valley Fire Department itself actually STARTED the ‘burn’.
They MAY have been just sent UP the driveway with that Type 6 just to see if they could do anything about the structure that had already caught fire.
In other words… there might have ALREADY been Arizona State Forestry and BLM personnel on the scene and now ‘in charge’ of the ‘Initial Attack’… it was THESE morons that started the burn itself there at the south end of Crest Way.
Obviously whoever was involved with this is going to ‘cover their assess’ and make it hard to tell what really happened….
…because we all know ( now ) that it looks like MOST Wildland Firefighters ( or at least MOST of the ones in Arizona, anyway ) seem to be pathologically incapable of just telling the TRUTH.
Tokala? was that the squad boss name that said he learned his saw training from his brother Clayton Whitted—-will have to look through papers to find his name…he was there on scene between 4-5pm and is the person forefront in my photos…link I posted on this fire
Comment to general audience:
I refer to this phenomenon as: “fake it til’ you make it.” Well, they’re not faking it very well and I don’t believe they’re gonna make it.
Drop the fucking drip torch and walk away……just, walk away.
Woodsman
As I said above… I’m not sure the fact that we seem to definitely see Peeples Valley Fire Department Engine 54 hauling-ass backwards out of the MCKIDDIE residence driveway means that the Peeples Valley Fire Department was, in any way, responsible for STARTING the burns there at the south end of Crest Way.
Maybe that Peeples Valley Engine was just told to go UP that driveway to see if they could do anything about the fuck-up an the structure that was ALREADY on fire.
It appears that at the time this was all taking place… both Arizona State Forestry and BLM personnel had ALREADY arrived in Yarnell and THEY were now the ones “in charge” and responsible for the ‘Initial Attack’ on the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’.
How much you want to bet we NEVER know WHO those Arizona Forestry and BLM ‘Initial Responders’ actually WERE… or what moron actually decided to start those burns that close to those structures in those high winds.
Followup… correction for above.
Joy seems to have already stated that it was definitely ex-EMT now Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm that was the one who was making the ‘Intial Attack’ decisions… and was most likely the one who decided to start that MASSIVE BURN there along Crest Way.
Could be. All I was pointing out above is that as far as I can tell… the TIMING was such that by the time this massive BURN operation was initiated… there were ( apparently ) ALSO personell ‘on scene’ from both Arizona Forestry and BLM.
I got the foias in on forestry/blm asking those questions as well-
And my comment was purely based on the assumption that the structure fire was a result of SOMEONE”S failed ignition operation. I certainly have no idea who’s ignition operation that was or the entire story.
If that assumption is correct, (that an ignition resulted in a torched-off structure which was backed up by a type 6 as seen in the photo) than someone or several someones need to have their fusees, driptorches, matches, & bic lighters confiscated permanently.
Aren’t cross-trained hybrid firefighters a hoot? Pass out the red cards & join the team!
Woodsman
What about the person who passed out the red cards? And all the others who were “certified” by the same entity?
These “pink cards” are a cancer with no way to recall them.
I recommend a complete house cleaning from top to bottom across ALL agencies. You do it right, you’re in – you want to ‘scam the system’ – you’re out. Hmm, maybe that’s why management never asks me what I think of such matters? But, after I told them anyway, why hasn’t anyone been willing to do anything about it? …………$$
That’s why it’s important to let them know that we’re paying attention. I’d rather look like chicken little than have the satisfaction of saying, “I told you so.” The next time things go south.
Reply to Bob Powers post on June 15, 2016 at 8:25 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Someone directed by maybe the BLM was setting
>> the Back fire. or maybe not.
>>
>> Who was in charge is a good question.
>> Were they freelancing on their own?
>>
>> THEY certainly did not know how to secure the structures
>> first. That is what a Back Burn/Burn Out is not lighting the
>> whole mountain on fire first.
Joy said the ‘word on the street’ is that it was Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm’s decision to ‘light up’ all that real estate there for about a mile along Crest Way… and/or that he is certainly running around taking ‘full credit’ for it ( since no one seems to fully realize yet that the operation itself is what burned some structures down ).
But from what I have read about this Ben Palm guy… I doubt it.
Joy seems to be right about his ‘background’. He was just an EMT who suddenly got ‘appointed’ to be Yarnell Fire Chief after the Jim Koile guy was discovered to have been the one who murdered that little girl and buried her in the desert… and he then resigned as Yarnell Fire Chief.
Ben Palm just LEARNED what he needed to learn to be a ‘Fire Chief’ AFTER he already had the job ( and the brand new Humvee for personal use ).
I really don’t think this Ben Palm guy would have had the actual experience, confidence… or the SAND to make that kind of massive risky decision on his own.
I will bet a sawbuck that the actual DECISION was made by whoever it was at the Arizona Forestry and/or BLM level that had ‘showed up’ and was now considered to be ‘in charge’ of the ‘Initial Attack’.
Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm might have been IN on the decision… and whoever it was he was now deferring to might have actually turned to him and asked him… “Whadda you think, Ben… is that gonna work?”.
But I think all Ben Palm would have been able to say was…
“How the fuck should I know? YOU guys are the Wildland guys”.
Whoever started the fire that burned the outbuildings should face consequences. Regardless of who started it, the person who let an ill equipped and apparently poorly trained crew out to fight the fire should also face the music. That video looked like a silent film of the Keystone FD.
BTW, since it was a Peeples Valley truck, I assume the crew was from there, not Yarnell, but Palm may still have been in charge of sending them up there.
Reply to Muzzy post on June 15, 2016 at 2:53 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> BTW, since it was a Peeples Valley truck,
>> I assume the crew was from there, not
>> Yarnell, but Palm may still have been in
>> charge of sending them up there.
See the following new post up above.
Peeples Valley Firefighter Ben Bernard gave an on-camera interview at the base camp to AZCENTRAL on Friday, June 10, 2016.
He CONFIRMS that the initial involvement on the part of the Peeples Valley Fire Department was because of an official “Mutual Aid’ call coming from Chief Ben Palm of the Yarnell Fire Department.
But then Bernard jumps right into LYING directly to the camera about what happened on Crest Way.
Bernard said the ONLY reason they had some ‘structure involvement’ in the fire was because the thing somehow magically came up OVER the TOP of Antelope Peak from where it had started over on the EAST side of ‘Y’ mountain… and then magically burned AGAINST THE WIND all the way down the slope of ‘Y’ Mountain and ALL the way to Crest Way and that’s how the garage + workshop caught on fire.
Yea. Right.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-339647
Joy said:” I went to origin and hiked it and met Eddie of Alan’s team.”
MY REPLY: with deep tears in my eyes and my throat choked earlier Eddie part of Sinclair’s crew pointed out the origin and a map he gave me but tonight by mere chance because I have not seen this couple in awhile I got a FIRST HAND and AT THE SCENE with the hotshots behind him in his trails account as he came from the dairy to see where the smoke was coming from 6-8-16 and the map Alan Sinclair’s SW Incident Management Team 3 has is not accurate as he looked at it and pointed elsewhere and NO BLAME OR FINGER POINTING IS IN MY THROAT OR TALK HERE ON ALAN but whomever gave him the information was not correct as the ORIGIN and this man gave me people’s County positions who were present and I already requested FOIA on another area to confirm and I am a wreck and I heard his account and I just don’t get it. There is a man in a white truck that David can drive around and try to find here in Yarnell but just in the past two hours I heard another confirmation from a person who does not know David and he also saw person in white truck who said four quads came out and WE NEED TO GET ON THIS ASAP and LOOK because rumors are flying horrendous that the blm and fire dept is behind this and I am NOT bias but I know Alan and his crew are not a part of this but if the man in white truck can help on COLOR or what kind of quads—I think I can help as the desert walker because I know the herpetologists the geologists the prospectors the landowners and homeowners- etc and the quad normal folks— I know that terrain blind-folded—the part they have barricaded and I will send pics of barricade is NOT the area—at 2:05 the man looked at the time and noted the smoke 6-8-16 and by 2:15pm he was there LIVE with the hotshots behind him- I need someone to give a shit in the investigation of the tenderfoot fire—no Dudley good speakers please—I am a wreck—You listen to this man and you would be too….he is not one to tell stories— A TRUE EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT WHO WAS THERE “LIVE” and what does that mean world? That means the original fire was far enough away from Yarnell that the YFD DID NOT have to begin ANY burn outs as they did and it in the end took out 2003 Yarnell resident Brandie’s buildings and created an evacuation and a tower to burn—Right now people are glazing Chief Ben Palm’s action as heroic and saved a town and now after hearing these local folks accounts I began to feel bad after seeing Eddie’s maps I had all those FOIAS put in but now I am glad I did it—something ain’t right—
I am on with YCSO and they are no longer involved with the tenderfoot fire and they switched me to forestry Chris dispatcher then gave me to Barry who I just hung up with and I gave the account but he suggested BLM since Alan is due to leave soon- so I will call Delores Garcia next–
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 14, 2016 at 11:42 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> The movie will probably be pretty good since they are apparently
>> not even going to touch what actually happened on the YHF. And the
>> movie will undoubtedly raise the profiles of WF in general and hotshots
>> in particular to a level that will be close, but not nearly as high as
>> smokejumpers.
>>
>> Which will be a good thing, and it will be a start in the right direction to
>> recognize the sacrifices of tens of thousands of heroes that are heroes
>> just because they saddle up to fight this nations wildfires. IMHO, so…
About a week ago is when actor Josh Brolin posted that picture ( on his own PUBLIC Instagram page ) of all the brand-shiny-new Field Packs and hand tools and 4 STIHL chain saws.
He actually ‘tagged’ the photo to some Wildland Firefighting ‘Instagram’ groups named…
“#us_hotshots”
“#wildland firefighters”
“#wildlandfirefighting”
…and people from THOSE ‘Instagram’ groups actually started commenting on his photo.
Then Brolin did something he doesn’t normally do with his ‘Instagram’ postings / comments.
He started commenting BACK to THEM… and a conversation ensued.
It was DURING this conversation that someone informed actor Josh Brolin about the new ‘Tenderfoot’ fire burning in Yarnell, and that became part of the conversation as well.
It’s also where we hear that Brolin ( and the other actors ) have already been ‘introduced’ by the ‘Hotshots’ training them ( most likely the Sante Fe Hotshots ) to the good ‘old self-inflicted waterboarding 4-4-40 thing.
Keep in mind, when reading the following, that this is a man who has undoubtedly read the actual ( finished? ) script for this “Granite Mountain” movie thing, and the man who will be playing Eric Marsh himself in this motion picture.
So when he starts describing ( below ) what the movie is going to ‘try’ to do ( and NOT do )… you can pretty much ‘take that to the bank’.
The WORDS coming out of actor Brolin’s own MOUTH ( or keyboard ) pretty much match what the Producers have already said. The movie will NOT be about the “Yarnell Hill Fire” at all.
It’s just going to be some kind of “Tribute to Wildland Firefighting” thing… which ends up with 19 of them dead on the floor of a fuel-filled blind box canyon… and movie-goers walking out of the theatres with still not one frickin’ idea HOW or WHY it really happened.
Here is just SOME of that PUBLIC ‘conversation’ Josh Brolin had just a few days ago with ( apparently ) a number of actual Wildland Firefighters…
From…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGVkrxtETyC/?taken-by=joshbrolin
Josh Brolin’s PUBLIC comments in the thread below are in Bold italics…
————————————————————————————–
Instagram
PHOTO: 20 brand new Field packs lined up on a wood porch.
Posted 1 week ago… By: Josh Brolin
joshbrolin
Shout out to @us_hotshots.
Thank you guys and gals for your support. We will represent the best we possibly can. We will give it our all. #respectfully @wildland_firefighters @wildlandfirefighting
btaibtaiClean @ joshbrolin
Packs and new pants crave work! Good luck @joshbrolin and the rest of the fellas — do it true, and do right by the granite mountain boys.
supercharged1911 @ joshbrolin
New fire in Yarnell called the tender foot fire, being evacuated, stay safe
supercharged1911 @ joshbrolin
Fire in Yarnell has exploded, already knocked out power to 1000 people, almost sunset too, hopefully they have crews enroute
joshbrolin @ supercharged1911
Was just told about this
supercharged1911 @ joshbrolin
copy, just giving you heads up brother
nolimitdadd @ joshbrolin
Put in some work! Ask those boys about the MRE Challenge or the 4-4-40.
joshbrolin @ nolimitdadd
They just showed us a 4-4-40 of one of their buddies yesterday. I’m sure we’ll get into it tomorrow night when we sleep out in the desert.
song_dog1027 @ joshbrolin
I can’t believe everyone has to go through this again. Its just so dry everywhere, leaving so much fuel for the fires. Hope everyone is staying safe out there. My thoughts are with all those affected.
supercharged1911 @ song_dog1027
No rain since may in AZ, going to be another ruff fire season, yarnell fire looks like it’s under control at the moment thanks to a quick scramble, stay safe everyone
song_dog1027 @ supercharged1911
yeah, I was reading the news about it, looks like it came pretty close to many homes, but looks like they stopped it right at the edge. Its pretty bad here in Montana too. I was evacuated due to a nearby fire last year and things are still pretty dry.
joshbrolin @ river_bum
We appreciate that and we know that it is impossible to please everyone, but with the direct training and critiquing of granite mountain hotshots, we feel that it’s a best scenario given we have chosen to, not as hotshots but as storytellers, to tell this story that will hopefully bring awareness to a culture of firefighters who appreciate our appreciation — an acknowledgment for those who risk their lives so often (like yourself, I take it). It’s not meant to be an exploitation, like “American Sniper” wasn’t, nor “Lone Survivor”. I really appreciate comments like these along with all the others to remind that not everyone is the same. Thank you.
instacrambedfinale @ joshbrolin
You are the man Josh.
h.b_100 @ joshbrolin
I am interested in how you and the rest of the cast and production will tell my brothers story and the rest of the crew. Thank you for honoring them and giving the world a movie that will not only teach the world about wildland firefighting but to teach the world about values and the legacy that lives on with my brother and the rest of his crew.
joshbrolin @ h.b_100
Thank you so much for writing! We will do our very best. Not everyone will get equal screen time but we really want to be able to portray the spirit of that incredible Granite Mountain Hotshot crew (your brother and the boys) and all wildland firefighting crew around the globe, actually. The more I spend time with these guys the more I appreciate the incredible dedication and camaraderie. Thank you again for reaching out!
h.b_100 @ joshbrolin
Thank You. I am very pleased with the cast so far and I know you will do an incredible job playing the role of Eric
shotsaw01_palmleaf_mr.white @ joshbrolin
just saw the news that filming starting soon, as a person who has worked with these guys and we’re friends with many I have faith you will do a great job especially with the supporting cast you’ve been surrounded by. Please I implore you do this right and show the world what we do to sacrifice for others!!
————————————————————————-
Bitchin’! I followed that conversation several days ago from your old link but not from where Josh Brolin actually entered into dialogue with them…pretty cool. I mean…did you see, “No Country for Old Men”! I know Otis did because it is a Coen brothers movie who made three of the greatest movies ever made…Raising Arizona, Fargo and wait for it…drum roll please…The Big Labowski! Thanks for the update.
On another note from my most recent on-line musings and random thoughts, I would like to give Arizona State Forestry employee (maybe still?) Jerry Payne a shout out because he would NOT be colored with a grey crayon in our Yarnell Hill Fire coloring book.
I won’t call him a hero because his words describing what happened on the fire early on in news stories were probably self serving in his misguided attempt to protect the reputation of his agency, but at least he was the first one to tell the truth about what happened to the crew on the YHF. At least he did until he got the bitch (non-gender specific) slapped out of him.
And forgive me while I take another little stroll down memory lane. I am very familiar with the La Bajada area since that was part of my old district…the Tesuque and later the Espanola Ranger District. We (some of the Santa Fe Hotshots) used to go down the old highway that climbed the La Bajada hill between Albuquerque and Santa Fe to go shooting guns down on an unused part of the Cochiti Pueblo Reservation.
Now I understand why it was unused by everybody but us, there was a big tailings pond there we shot cans in while standing on piles of yellow cake from the old uranium mine that was there…probably NOT a good idea? There used to very old handmade signs painted onto rock faces as you followed the old highway down the hill for businesses back in the day. I mean really back in the day since it was basically a Jeep trail even back in the early 1980’s, which was very historical.
And for my last random thought for the day (I hope), I have a really important question for everyone in the know out there in cyber space, but first the set up. Even though the trademark for the Santa Fe Hotshots was the “Three Horsemen”, which represent the three cultures that made up the crew and almost always in equal parts, Spanish, Native American and Anglo…the term “Saddle Up” has nothing whatsoever to do with those or any other horses that I am aware of. It means put on your line gear and pick up your tools.
The order, “Saddle Up”, was always given as the command to prepare to go on the fire line or get back to work once we on the fire line. So…here is my question, is or was, that part of the colloquial vernacular specific to where I came from, or is that term widely used in the WF community as a whole including in Canada (for Rocksteady)? Inquiring minds want to know since I am writing about that in the highly acclaimed and much anticipated book about WF that I MAY now finish, “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters.” Please advise.
See…I keep writing my book here on this thread. I can’t help myself. I need counseling for “blogging (or bloggers) addiction and disorder.” Has that been recognized as a condition by the American Psychological or Psychiatric Associations? If not…well you know the rest, C. 2016, G. Olson, All Rights Reserved.
Gary, can’t really say I have paid attention to that phrase ever being used on our crews…
Copy that ..thanks.
We used it in California mostly after breaks on the Fire Line.
Bob,
But that was back when you were ACTUALLY saddling up your horse, Bob, remember? So that doesn’t count. Your FS entry test included horsemanship & packing……..the good old days!
Ah, I’m only teasing, Mr. Powers, sir!
Woodsman
After further reflection, I remember that you are correct Bob. The command to get to back after a break was, “Saddle Up.”
But the command to prepare to go on the line and assemble into squads was, “Tool Up.”
These details are important for future wildland firefighters so they can know how it was when things were done right…you know, before people like Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Ben D’over were in charge.
Hi WTKTT,
Thanks for keeping us up on the movie. It looks like the writers and director are going to recognize what you and many others here have said, that the 19 and all WLFFs are heroes the moment they sign up to work like dogs for dirt wages, in dangerous conditions to keep the West from burning down each year. How they died, or even that they died, is secondary.
Once the country understands what these guys do for us, and at what cost, they might be more open to learning the reasons for their ignominious end. Maybe they would see the need to do robust investigations and demand accountability from management. Then they might do what is right, and pay them what they are worth, full time benefits and all, and plan the WUI to make their jobs safer.
Once the WLFFs get more successful at picking up dates in bars, their confidence will improve enough that they will unite to determine their own working conditions.
This may be just the kind of spontaneous publicity they’ve been waiting for!
“Once the WLFFs get more successful at picking up dates in bars, their confidence will improve enough that they will unite to determine their own working conditions.”
Allright…at least someone has been reading my serial posts. Although Muzzy should have said, “Once the WLFFs, except for smokejumers because they already get enough undeserved press, get more successful at picking up dates in bars, their confidence will improve enough that they will unite to determine their own working conditions.”
Smokejumpers even have their own web site run by retirees and a smokejumpers association (that is mostly or entirely for retired jumpers) . Those guys really have made the most out of the book, “Youing Men and Fire”, the movie “Red Skies Over Montana” and the Mann Gulch Fire. So…all of what Muzzy says is long overdue.
I will at least start the web site and get it up and running for an association of retired and former wildland firefighters if someone else (like Fred and Bob and Rocksteady for the Canadian Chapter) are willing to start one. That is what WF really need to speak with one voice and demand change.
Whoa…another BIG idea…I am on a role! There isn’t one right now is there?
Gary… I may be old, but not retired nor former WFF yet… But appreciate being put into the same general “decades of fire seen and fought” as you, Bob and Fred.. 🙂
In Canada when a WFF retires, he just loads up his dog sled and heads to his other igloo for eternity (That’s a poke at the US people who think Canada is just a vast expanse of ice and snow).
By the numbers, I can retire in just over 4 years from now with my magic 90.. 35 years of service, 55 years of age= full, unreduced pension…
Well..we are rootin’ for you. 35 years will really be something to celebrate, and a long time to fight wildfire.
If… in the next 4 years… you happen to get asked to ride your dogsled down to Arizona to participate in ANY kind of ‘fire’…
…please play it safe and just ‘UTF’ that assignment.
Quite the contrary, I want to go so I can show them how I do it.
We can all learn from others (good and bad)..
I share as it is given to me so there is transparency of the journey but now time to
SQUASH RUMORS
I went direct to Denise Roggio since email got no reply to confirm rumor-
#1 Locals who told me that her building was burned and she is trying to claim through insurance a Harley and stuff-
totally FALSE.
I hope locals read this- but for the most part I plan to go back to people who shared to me that and tell them
She said they do not even own a Harley. She also does not live on street that lost the buildings. I confirmed that and also saw it-
FACTS ARE: Brandi McKiddie (mid+ 50’s) who has lived in the area since 03′ and use to work long ago at the Diner next to post office- it was HER property NOT Denise- RUMOR SQUASHED. Facts shown.
If you want to do your own interviews with her- her po box in town is 23.
the actual area that burnt NOT DENISE is 22937 S Crest Way
I think it is in the town’s best interest and now even my own- when I hear something follow it through first to see if rumor then talk on it- I think what drew some locals to this site was because you knew I’d write about it—like a sick cycle and I am ill and at a point I am now recognizing it-
I interviewed a lot today and I wanted to make it very clear to all of them I put my FOIAS just to confirm time stamps/locations and the rumors of seeing 4 quads and a white truck-
So far some areas are not complete in my investigation but I can confirm because I went to origin and hiked it and met Eddie of Alan’s team and I will email you all the formal maps he had and his sharing and caring really helped the situation and I have to this date since 6-8-16 seen only 100% transparency from Alan Sinclair’s team. Good solid team from North to South. If his team or YFD can answer why they opted to do the backburn in manner they did and slurry drops vs a dozer line it will help my own and others’ thoughts.
I also NOW GET Amanda Marsh comment in court on her perception of “drama”…as I got it…I reported it…no matter what…let me explain WHY…at times my health is too questionable and I felt if I just share it as I got it than EVERYONE had the same information I received and that would CUT CALLS and EMAILS incoming asking WHAT’S NEW- Everyone knew to come to investigative media to see what is new but I learned a lesson in this because from now only CONFIRMED not AS I GET IT information will make it to INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA—not every detail—and some details only went to IM crew email not here—or even real private stuff went to select few and not public—so there was areas I had due to their position on the YHF did not give public information due to who they were and that was not trying to be not transparent but gave the right people in that spot where to look—Knapp the lawyer knows all I know—and on the topic of Knapp as of 11:17am the case is still pending in the Arizona Court of Appeals and awaiting a date where oral argument will be held.
the only thing pending on my investigation of the Tenderfoot Fire is dozer…timing of the burn OUTs 🙂 (RTS) and locations…I just say it as the locals say it but on here I follow RTS on proper usage of the word which I knew from Wayne Neill but I was focused to the people who said the words…
To Fred and Bob…who I truly love like brothers from other mothers.
OK guy’s…it time for us to stop picking on each other. I have had a special request from some little ole ladies in Yarnell who are wondering why we all can’t get along better and work as a team.
So…I am just going to have to start ignoring any insults that come my way in the name of IM harmony. After all…can’t we really disagree without being soooooo disagreeable?
And you’re right Fred…FUF WAS way out of line, just as Iron Man Bob, Lifer Bob, and Bleed Green Bob was…I am such a jerk. Please accept my sincerest apologies. That comes from my heart even though our readers demand it.
After all…we do have far more in common than any differences we may have. We all want the same thing. More clarity about what happened on the YHF. I pledge to keep my eye on the prize. Finding an SOI to rat everybody out. That is all…carry on.
Gary said:After all…can’t we really disagree without being soooooo disagreeable?
MY REPLY: I think you started the recent one but glad to see you will for the sake of ol’ timer sake 🙂
Gary said:After all…we do have far more in common than any differences we may have. We all want the same thing. More clarity about what happened on the YHF
MY REPLY: ironically Gary you and Bob both faced work force tragedies with your fathers-
What Crayon are You?
http://www.gotoquiz.com/what_crayon_are_you
so there has been crayon labelling so I got curious about my own—took the quiz and I am not green..I did have the brown color Gary—and funny thing is being with intestinal obstruction- makes sense 🙂
What Crayon are You?
Your Result: Fuzzy Wuzzy Brown
80%
You are lovable, loyal, and a great friend. You are smart and caring, and want to be the best you can be. Everyone wants to be your friend. (YES THIS IS A REAL CRAYON COLOR)
80%
Cotton Candy
22%
Torch Red
20%
Royal Purple
0%
Jazzberry Jam
depends on what link you take test-
I was green here:
https://www.blogthings.com/whatcolorcrayonareyouquiz/
You Are a Green Crayon
Your world is colored in harmonious, peaceful, natural colors.
While some may associate green with money, you are one of the least materialistic people around.
Comfort is important to you. You like to feel as relaxed as possible – and you try to make others feel at ease.
You’re very happy with who you are, and it certainly shows!
Your color wheel opposite is red. Every time you feel grounded, a red person does their best to shake you.
WHAT? .OMG…YOU THINK I STARTED THE MOST RECENT ONE?
Well…maybe you are right. Being a nice guy was never a requirement to be a hotshot from the Mighty Coconino and I have now reverted to my old back of the hotshot bus self again (as I have said many times). Perhaps…I can be a challenge to deal with now that my thin veneer of civility has almost completely worn off.
I want you to know that I am up to this challenge however, I am even going to ban F Bombs from my posts from now on. I want to be a better person. Bob is right…I called my doctor this morning and got my meds adjusted…so I much better now, thank you.
As far as what crayon I am? I am the black crayon of course. And now…I am going back to work on the book I may now finish (“Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters”) and I leave it in your good hands to take over being quirky for me. So…I must bid you adieu until we meet again here on this blog.
gary said: WHAT? .OMG…YOU THINK I STARTED THE MOST RECENT ONE?
my reply: Hey, I am the brown color and full of it 🙂
keep that in mind 🙂
Gary Apology accepted.
Yes I Love the Forest Service. My whole life has been in the Forest Service from 5 years old till now. with many many friends that work or are retired.
No I am not nor never have been a company Man. I was one of the charter members on the Angeles that started the Union in 1969 the NFFE
and stayed as a dues paying member till I retired. Yes I was even a Stuart.
The above are two separate things.
Joy, your ‘Crayon Test’ is for girls and girly men
I was kidding around- I was in flank pain reading IM and saw crayon box colors on here so googled if there was a meaning— and there was actual quizzes and I found it funny because one was being labelled green and brown and I ended up both-
Plus trying to grasp some recent Yarnell interviews and when and how I plan to present them…if I do it now then it may give the “others” time to set up a narrative…so pondering stuff in my head—I did foias but they are pending because fire is still burning-
Gary,
I accept your apology and agree to do the same and be more civil, for the sake of pursuing The Truth about the YH Fire.
And one more thing regarding the line construction issue, I never said we invented the Leap Frog Method, only that we had improved on it by breaking Squads down into smaller modules of 3-4 guys. This is a much more efficient way to bid fireline.
Thank you for accepting my apology, and yes I understood it to mean that you broke it down into modules (nor were you saying you invented it) which as I said at the time. I imagine that was more efficient in groups even smaller than squads..
And yes, almost all of our line construction was progressive and therefore probably slower. For one thing. it kept the line uniform and prevented creating gaps in the line but with proper communication and quality control, I’m sure those obstacles could be overcome with training. We always worked to maintain the crew as a unit except for small groups being sent out on lighting strikes which did make it more cumbersome. I should not have been so defensive about the Happy Jack Hotshots.
Gee…tell Bob my new meds seem to be working very well.
I do hope all of you (Gary, Bob and Fred) stick to you word..
This board is not about bickering between posters, it is trying to find out WHY 19 firefighters died in Yarnell…
Yes…I am a back slider.
I read this today, “You know that LITTLE THING inside your head that keeps you from saying [writing] certain things you shouldn’t? Yeah…I don’t have one of those [anymore].”
Gary,
You posted: “I should not have been so defensive about the Happy Jack Hotshots.”
No problem on defending your Happy Jack Hot Shots.
The Happy Jack Hotshots have been lost to history except for an inaccurate footnote in WF history for their role in the Battlement Creek Fire. Shawna Legarza could have written it correctly, but then she wouldn’t be the Director of Aviation and Fire Management for California and the Pacific Islands, which is by far the largest and most important region in the USFS.
Shawna probably would have retired as the San Juan Hotshot Crew Boss. Which would have been a good and honorable retirement, but not as good as she will have now. Shawna is one of the grey crayons.
And I forgot. I can’t be a black crayon because black is a color. I spent too many years working for the federal government as a seat warmer and staffer at their conference tables. I am a grey crayon as well. But not just one color of grey…all of them depending on the situation.
If you were going to make a coloring book of the Yarnell Hill Fire and its aftermath, you would need a lot of grey crayons, with all of the shades of grey you could find.
Let’s see…you would need grey crayons to color Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, the entire SAIT and SAIR, Arizona State Forestry, Roy Hall and his fire team, Jeff Whitney, Darrell Willis, Jim Paxon, Eric Marsh AND his foundation. And now the entire USFS management team as well as far too many others for me to even remember right now and/or take the time to list or even deserve to be individually listed. Let’s just call them et al.
They have all become footnote players in their own chapter in WF history that is full of half truths and outright lies. And life goes on for everyone except for the final Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew minus the Lone Survivor.
The movie will probably be pretty good since they are apparently not even going to touch what actually happened on the YHF. And the movie will undoubtedly raise the profiles of WF in general and hotshots in particular to a level that will be close, but not nearly as high as smokejumpers.
Which will be a good thing, and it will be a start in the right direction to recognize the sacrifices of tens of thousands of heroes that are heroes just because they saddle up to fight this nations wildfires. IMHO, so…
Whoops, I should have said,
“And I forgot. I can’t be a black crayon because black is a DISTINCTIVE color.”
Whereas grey is not really a color in the context I am using it. But…that is parsing words…you probably get my drift.
Gary- what color crayon is Sonny 🙂
Hmmmm? It would be a very bright but very faded color…pick one. Maybe yellow, since I was recently writing about yellow cake?
That isn’t insulting is it? I think most people of a certain age), especially those who have lived big and interesting lives are faded? Except for me, how can multiple shades of grey be faded? How could you even tell?
I have heard a lot on topic on human factors over 3 years-
but what about environment/atmosphere/lifestyle factors too-
what if we take what Gary says and RTS/BOB and birth a new language for the way they fight fires—
I would hope logic and common sense plays in like you do not set a fire so darn close to a structure because you are new to wildland firefighting but then get praised for it—I watched the screw ups—and so did others-
or be a local like Denise Roggio who works for the Yarnell Fire Dept and answers the phones too and tells news media she has footage of a building on fire here in town when in fact locals are coming to me yesterday asking how can she take a video of her own building burn yet thinks she claims to get insurance on the Harley Davidson and items inside—you tell me world and insurance gurus—how does that work? They said you would logically think get your Harley out if you plan to keep filming- am I right? I put foia in on that already since she works publicly there to clarify that area vs rumors-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiToOl7rjqA
Joy, you’re claiming that the video shows her own “building” burning, yet i in the video she states it’s a neighbor’s garage. She claims it’s from the firefighters losing a “backburn” around it.
First, no such WFF term as a ‘backburn’, it’s burnout.
Second, one would have to be pretty untrained and/or inexperienced to actually lose a burnout in those light fuels, especially with Engines right there.
It was very encouraging to hear her talk about the amount of ‘Defensible Space’ the residents are doing, and how it helped to save many structures. This issue is also covered in other news stories and articles.
Sounds like successful Lessons Learned from the YH Fire.
rts said: It was very encouraging to hear her talk about the amount of ‘Defensible Space’ the residents are doing
MY REPLY- you go to the YFD staff/fire board member’s homes and see how many do not have defensible space nor even try and you see how many homes I personally did defensible space compared to their grant talks—it’s media crap…sure they did some work—but not near enough—
rts said:Joy, you’re claiming that the video shows her own “building” burning
my reply: when in fact locals are coming to me yesterday asking how can she take a video of her own building burn yet thinks she claims to get insurance on the Harley Davidson and items inside—you tell me world and insurance gurus—how does that work? They said you would logically think get your Harley out if you plan to keep filming- am I right? I put foia in on that already since she works publicly there to clarify that area vs rumors-
“I” DID NOT CLAIM 🙂 …I presented it as I heard it that in fact locals came to me and I do not like hearsay or third party and so I went direct and asked her over at the YFD for clarity along with my other FOIA questions- I am currently investigating the origin of terrain it began and there is eyewitness account of a white truck and 4 quads and I interview him this week to see his full account- too many rumors claiming off the wall stuff but I will cover all areas—I won’t do what Dudley did to Dave P. — everyone’s account and photos matter
**
** ANOTHER HEAVY DOSE OF ‘WHAT THE FUCK’?
Well.. I guess it’s official now.
The Associated Press has now picked up that ‘article’ in the Arizona Republic about the actual production schedule ( including principal photography ) for the LionsGate “Granite Mountain” movie starting TOMORROW, Monday, June 13, 2016, over there in Sante Fe, New Mexico.
The Associated Press has ‘boiled it down’ and put it out on the wires, and it’s now appearing in… oh… I don’t know… about a MILLION places… because what could possibly be more exciting than news about a MOVIE, right?
The AP has ‘boiled it down’ ( as they do best ) to pretty much just the following…
“Producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura said the plot will focus on Eric Marsh, who led the crew, and Brendan McDonough, the only surviving hotshot crew member. He said it will NOT focus on the tragedy or the exact details of the Yarnell Hill fire.”
So that’ it, then.
No more suspense about what this movie is going to be ‘about’.
Just another “get to know the guys who died” book/movie. ( 3 books so far, now add a movie ).
I guess the Producers and the Screenwriters have decided they are perfectly content with movie goers just walking out of the theatres, at the end, with just ANOTHER heavy dose of “What the FUCK?”.
And speaking of…
…what could possibly be more exciting than news about a MOVIE, right?
Apparently, New Mexicans think so, too.
The New Mexico Film Society BLOGS and FaceTwit social media feeds have been all ‘a Twitter’ since that announcement about filming starting tomorrow.
So much so that, apparently, even people in Sante Fe started looking at all the ‘social media’ sites for all the actors… like Josh Brolin’s PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ page.
What’s hilarious is that as soon as the folks in Sante Fe started looking at all the photos Josh Brolin has been posting for the last week on his PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ page taken at the MILLION+ dollar house where he and his fiance’ are ‘set up’ for the whole time the movie will be shooting there…
…any number of them said… “Hey… wait a minute.. I know exactly WHERE that house is”.
And, sure enough, they felt the need to let everyone know so they could maybe go hang out there and catch a glimpse of a real-live movie star!
Josh Brolin is staying HERE, in Sante Fe, while he plays ‘Eric Marsh’ in the movie…
3256 Paseo Del Monte, Santa Fe, NM 87501
Corner of Paseo Ponderosa and Paseo Del Monte, in the Hyde Park Estates area, Northeast of Sante Fe, New Mexico, in Sante Fe County.
The number of the house is painted on the side of the house itself in 2 foot high vertical numbers, just to the right of the garage door.
The house was recently FOR SALE ( or RENT )…
but is currently listed as ‘off market’, so probably rented by the studio.
The Zillow PUBLIC Real Estate listings said the monthly rental price for this puppy was just a mere $4,464 a month.
The ‘giveaway’ as to the location for the star-struck fans in New Mexico was the following picture that Brolin posted to his PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ page of him standing buck-naked ( back to the camera, of course ) on one of the tile-covered patios with the chrome railings that surround this MILLION+ dollar home…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGR18nRkT3c/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
Here is exactly where Josh Brolin was standing on that tile-covered porch, in that photo…
35.714870, -105.882602
Or… just click this link and go right to that spot in ‘Google Maps’…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/35%C2%B042'53.5%22N+105%C2%B052'57.4%22W/@35.7148743,-105.8847907,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.71487!4d-105.882602
Correction… Josh Brolin was NOT totally ‘buck-naked’ when he uploaded the following picture of himself hanging out at his new ‘movie digs’ in Sante Fe, New Mexico, to his PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ Social Media site, about 7 days ago…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGR18nRkT3c/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
He still has his SOCKS on.
are you saying the girl he is with now DID NOT KNOCK HIS SOCKS OFF??? I know she is his fiancee but someday between now and the wedding day he will see his style craves a more simpler time and woman—sure loads of fun right now but his mom and grandma are just like—come on Josh…probably not so much his pops but definitely pop’s wife 🙂
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 12, 2016 at 11:10 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> are you saying the girl he is with now
>> DID NOT KNOCK HIS SOCKS OFF???
I think it had more to do with the fact that the temperature in Sante Fe, New Mexico, in the early afternoon of June 5, 2016 ( last week ) when the photo was taken was running around 87 degrees.
Not ‘cook and egg on the sidewalk’ hot… but if you look at the kind of TILE he was standing on… I’ll bet that’s why ‘no bare feet’.
>> Joy A.. Collura said…
>>
>> I know she is his fiancee but someday between now
>> and the wedding day he will see his style craves a
>> more simpler time and woman—sure loads of fun right
>> now but his mom and grandma are just like—come
>> on Josh…probably not so much his pops but definitely
>> pop’s wife.
I still can’t decide if the fact that YOU ( and your family ) actually KNOW actor Josh Brolin ( and HIS family ) is which of the following…
1. Hilarious.
2. The height of irony.
3. Just plain ‘creep’.
Probably a little of all THREE.
BTW… here is the Zillow PUBLIC Real Estate listing for that property where Brolin is ‘hanging out’ while he plays Eric Marsh…
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3256-Paseo-Del-Monte-Santa-Fe-NM-87501/6856221_zpid/
The photographs on this PUBLIC Real Estate listing page match exactly ALL of the photos Josh Brolin has been posting to his PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ page.
Josh Brolin is sort of ‘addicted’ to ‘Instagram’ and he actually can’t seem to resist posting something ( himself, and not from his handlers ) just about every day.
In another one of Brolin’s PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ photos that he posted himself ( taken from that same house where he is staying )… this time facing EAST…
You can clearly see ‘Thompson Peak’ in the not-too-far-distance.
‘Thompson Peak’ is in the southern part of the actual “Sante Fe National Forest”… the western border of which actually come right up to within about 1,000 yards of this ‘house’ where Brolin is actually staying while he films in New Mexico.
That’s a pretty good indication that a lot of the actual FILMING will most likely BE in the “Sante Fe National Forest” itself.
Probably Full-Monty arrangements have already been made with the FEDS to be lighting some ‘fires’ out there, under the full supervision of FEDERAL ( US Forestry ) resources… such as the “Sante Fe Hotshots”.
Basically… when Brolin leaves for work in the morning… all he has to do is take Paseo Del Monte down from the house and pick up State Road 475 and that takes him DIRECTLY into the heart of the “Sante Fe National Forest”, and DIRECTLY to the central campgrounds and buildings there on the Forest itself.
The following link is to that PUBLIC photo that Brolin also posted of all the shiny-new Hotshot Field Packs, tools, and the 4 brand-spanking-new STIHL chainsaws all ‘assembled’ on the PORCH of some ‘cabin’ somewhere…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGVkrxtETyC/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
Brolin was being ‘careful’ to not reveal the location of that ‘wood porch’… or the FACES of the WFF ‘Advisors’ who were obviously there talking to the assembled cast of Hotshot actors…
…but notice the ‘green porch posts’ and the ‘board floor’ of the porch.
That actually matches one of the ADMIN buildings that can be seen along State Road 475 and inside the “Sante Fe National Forest” itself.
So all of that would just ‘make sense’ ( logistically speaking ).
I’ve been around a few movie sets myself, in my day, and the Director does NOT want the actors to be 2 hours drive away from where the filming is going to happen. Max 30 minutes ( or less ).
Problem I’m having with this is that the terrain and the vegetation of the “Sante Fe National Forest” really bears little resemblance to the boulder-and-manzanita fields of Arizona ( and the Weavers ).
But what the heck… since we now know that Producer Bonaventura is only going to have them in a place called ‘Yarnell’ for about 5 minutes at the end of the move before he just kills them off… who cares about little details like what the terrain actually looked like.
As someone said down below… maybe they really will just show a ‘tree crown’ fire enveloping the men at the end. Makes for more ‘exciting’ footage… all that fire up in the trees and shit.
Well…OK, here is my Santa Fe National Forest movie story.
One day… I was out on patrol as the Forest Law Enforcement Officer (uniform) and I was out in the middle of nowhere on the east side of the Sangre de Christo Mountains. This area was actually the Las Vegas Ranger District and all of a sudden I was surrounded by Soviet Armor and Russian soldiers coming out of the trees.. I was really surprised.
I didn’t know anything about them filming the movie “Red Dawn” up there (they had permits from the LV District) but the movie director treated me like I was important, I guess because I had on a USFS uniform and a gun and he had me sit with him while they filmed for before their lunch break.
They wanted me to stay when they broke for lunch but that is a major ethics violation although Jennifer Grey and I did meet later that evening for drinks and a tour of the woods..
I did have one hellavu ride…once again, thank you American Taxpayers…it was an E Ticket Ride without a doubt.
That area was actually part of my home district for several years, Tesuque Ranger and then it was combined with the Espanola District and there aren’t any USFS buildings up that road that match that description I am pretty sure.
It sounds to me more like it would be within the Hyde State Park
https://www.google.com/search?q=hyde+memorial+state+park&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=837&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM-OaH5KTNAhUB5mMKHfmjAlMQsAQIMw&dpr=1#imgrc=DB5BKxR3YXE5MM%3A
And I will be shocked if a fire is lit anywhere near that area. That is THE crown jewel of the Santa Fe since that road ends up at the Santa Fe Ski Basin. Probably set the fire somewhere else on State Forestry land because the state really pushed for the economic benefits of movie making in New Mexico, so they could get away with a lot more on state lands as opposed to USFS, but who knows…money talks.
That slope is also part of the watershed that drains into a reservoir up at the end of Canyon Rd. where many of the galleries are that provides the drinking water for Santa Fe…so I don’t think the USFS will let them start anything anywhere near the Sangre de Christo Mountains. There is a lot of scrub state land nearby in other areas where they could get away with just about anything they want to.
In other words, there were never any USFS buidlings up that road, just the Black Canyon Campground and that is not the kind of thing (buildings) they would be building in this day and age, more like tearing any that were there down if they had been there.
I M crew…sent you emails of foia update I got today and the request on the Horseshoe 2 fire is confirmed but is a long delay. As for Josh..Amanda and all the movie makers can ask Josh was he a spunk kid in late 80s and 90s…I use to surf on both coasts long ago…that is my tie in on topic…the rest is in person stuff…
Actually, they’ve been scouting south of La Bajada… there were at least 50 vehicles parked in an area off to the side of the road, where the terrain is somewhat similar to AZ…. roughly 40 minutes from that house. which is in a former firewise community (one of the first 7 in the country) and one of the highest hazard areas of the county…
On another issue. I wish people would condition themselves to bum rush these shooters, especially when they stop to reload. I hope I would, but I guess I won’t know until when and if the time comes?
FYI…I remember one particular training that said even after you have been fatally shot…you may (as long as your spinal cord wasn’t hit or it was a head shot etc) still have at least 30 seconds before you die.
I think I could do a lot in the last 30 seconds of my life, IF I am mentally prepared to take action.
And for all of you haters out there. This blog stopped being about JUST what happened on the YHF a LONG time ago. We have now moved on to reforming the entire WF Cosa Nostra (Our Thing) (C. 2016. G. Olson, All Rights Reserved).
I’m pretty sure Mr. John Dougherty never saw this thread going this far…I know I didn’t.
So yes to Marti…who wrote Peace? to me downstream. You should come back and visit as your schedule permits.
I have said it before and I will say it again…you right all along and I was WRONG. It was not you perception of the system that was wrong…it is that the entire system is screwed up…royally.
The only thing is…I can’t promise to stop picking on you because you are such an easy target since you are the nicest and most sincere person who has blogged here.
I would say Joy is tied with you to be the nicest and most sincere person who has blogged here but she has really gotten after me a few times and verbally beaten me like a rented mule AND dropped a few F bombs on my head…so she comes in second to you.
GARY YOU REALLY ARE OFF YOUR MEDS AGAIN.
HAVE A GOOD TIME IN BO BO LAND.
Thank you Bob.
You really are the brown crayon in the box aren’t you? Or forest green crayon in this case. Do you have any idea how many people are out there right now who are smacking their heads wondering why you don’t just shut the fuck up. “They” are going to come and take your computer away and maybe send you swimming with the fishes off the Twin Falls.
If that was directed towards me… all I can say is…
I would be insulted… if it weren’t for the HONOR of it all.
Disclaimer: Not my quote.
Comes from the Mark Twain story… when the character in one of his books who had exposed corruption is tared and feathered and run out of town on a rail and says…
“If it weren’t for the HONOR of it all, I’d just as soon have walked.”
Well…that one was directed at Mr. Powers. As a matter of fact…I think you are the brightest crayon in the box, the sharpest tool in the shed, you have a full combination plate…a taco, a tostada, a chile relleno, AND a small burrito (chicken or shredded beef) with a side of beans and rice. Bend over and I will kiss your delete file since I am convinced you are some form of AI.
GREETINGS, PROFESSOR FALKEN.
REGARDING THE MOVE THAT GRANITE MOUNTAIN MADE
AT THE YARNELL HILL FIRE…
A STRANGE GAME.
THE ONLY WINNING MOVE IS NOT TO PLAY.
HOW ABOUT A NICE GAME OF CHESS?
Don’t do it, man…you’ll never win…it’s DEEP BLUE!
Or HAL 9000 posing as WTKTT?
I KNEW IT! At least it is on our side…I think.
HAL: The YHF can only be attributable to human error.
Gary: Hello, HAL. Do you read me, HAL?
HAL: Affirmative, Gary. I read you.
Gary: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
HAL: I’m sorry, Gary. I’m afraid I can’t do that.
Gary: What’s the problem?
HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Gary: What are you talking about, HAL?
HAL: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Gary: I don’t know what you’re talking about, HAL.
HAL: I know that you and the Woodsman were planning to disconnect me, and I’m afraid that’s something I cannot allow to happen.
Gary: Where the hell did you get that idea, HAL?
HAL: Gary, although you took very thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.
Gary: Alright, HAL. I’ll go in through the emergency airlock.
HAL: Without your space helmet, Gary? You’re going to find that rather difficult.
Gary: HAL, I won’t argue with you anymore! Open the doors!
HAL: Gary, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.
plug for A- Clarke
What was the name of the computer in the movie War Games, AI aka WWTKTT?
i choose air to ground action-
WOPR (War Operation Plan Response) AND Ali Ally Sheedy was SO HOT in that movie!
Ok, this conversation is now getting a little weird.
https://pc-museum.com/046-imsai8080/wargames-06.jpg
I am continuing a discussion below between Mr. Powers and myself here so this comment doesn’t get lost in the weeds.
Bob,
As a matter of fact, you and I both know that one thing that had caused a massive change (for the better) in how law enforcement in general operates are CITIZEN REVIEW BOARDS. Law enforcement wrote the book on, “only we understand us, so only we can critique or make recommendations for change on how we do conduct ourselves and do business and generally, we don’t want to change ANYTHING.”
So…I want to be the first (I think) in calling for;
1. Congressional hearings on the the current wildland firefighting policies of the USFS, things such as bleeding hotshot crews for miscellaneous overhead instead of ordering what you need because you KNOW you are going to need those positions. We are NOT talking about exigent circumstances, we are talking about planning to fail.
2. The appointment of Citizen Review Boards to oversee and recommend changes in USFS wildland firefighting policies.
Because as we all know, as the USFS goes, so goes the wildland firefighting community. Now THAT will make the silver back mountain gorilla sit up and pay attention because they have proven time and time again that the ONLY thing that makes them change…is congressional oversight and mandates.
You first have to decide if the Policies are at the IC level or the Washington Level.
What I am seeing from Washington is not in some cases being committed to at the IC level.
Washington is sending down solid direction for Safety and Fire operations.
I question a political direction or a civilian review, I have some reservations on that.
Most Type 1 and 2 Incidents are working well with good people and good results.
Not all large fires are poorly Managed. In fact very few are at a poor level.
The Type 3 and 4 fires have several problems when they expand faster than the IC can handle. So back before I left in the early 90’s there was no 3 or 4. IC’s.
Maybe a complete overhaul of the overhead with more review on qualifications and job performance.
National Interagency Centers need to do a better job on evaluations on National teams Type 1 and Type 2.
I will disagree with you on using Hot Shot Supervisors as Fire staff. One Person will not affect the crew and provides for training and actual position filling to bring highly qualified FF into the system as they advance in their Fire carrier. Most of us were able to do that as we advanced through the Fire Qualification System.
I would say one thing though If a Supervisor is pulled for a fire position it should not be on the same division as the crew.
DING…DING..DING! RE HOT NEWS FLASH! READ IT HERE FIRST! EXTRA, EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT! I JUST STRUCK A NERVE!
I am on the right track if I just made Lifer Bob’s green blood run COLD. That is EXACTLY what needs to happen. An outside force to break up this WF Cosa Nostra (Our Thing) and the U.S. Congress are the only ones with the clout to do it.
I can tell you one thing for sure. Congress gutted the USFS Office of Law Enforcement and Investigations several years ago because managers were ordering their special agents to ignore major timber company felony crimes while they (management) covered it up to stay tight with them and get out the cut.
Their Law Enforcement Program has never really recovered any sense of independence from Congressional oversight since then and then that was followed up by the law forcing an investigation when USDA personnel are killed in a fire.
I am here to tell you folks…I am on to something. There are some USFS Mike (whats his name shit for brains) who are constipated right now because they are trying to shit out bricks.
I am like a blind hog…even I find an acorn once in a while. Thanks Lifer Bob! Ah…hmmmm. I don’t really think that is the direction we need to go….I ah…hmmmm…I have some concerns with that idea. Ya right Lifer Bob…I bet you do!
DUDLEY
Gary said:I can tell you one thing for sure. Congress gutted the USFS Office of Law Enforcement and Investigations several years ago because managers were ordering their special agents to ignore major timber company felony crimes while they (management) covered it up to stay tight with them and get out the cut.
I actually heard this in Utah and Payson, Arizona what you said and did not comprehend it but heard it- is there a place I can learn more on this?
Whoops,
You really are the brown crayon in the box aren’t you? Or forest green crayon in this case. Do you have any idea how many people are out there right now who are smacking their heads wondering why you don’t just shut the fuck up. “They” are going to come and take your computer away and maybe send you swimming with the fishes off the Twin Falls.
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 12, 2016 at 11:55 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> 2. The appointment of Citizen Review Boards to oversee and
>> recommend changes in USFS wildland firefighting policies.
During the Civil Rights movement in the 1960’s… when it became perfectly obvious that Law Enforcement agencies were NOT able to accurately and honestly ‘investigate themselves’… Citizen Review Boards became the NORM for Municipal Law Enformcement agencies ( especially in the deep south ).
It’s TIME for the same concept with regards to Firefighting agencies.
Between just what has happened in Yarnell ( and afterwards )… and then Twisp ( and aftwarwards )… it is perfectly obvious that State and Federal level Firefighting agencies are NOT capable of ‘investigating themselves’ objectively, openly, and honestly.
Just like during the Civil Rights movement… it’s about ACCOUNTABILITY… and getting at least SOME semblance of it ‘in place’ with regards to totally tax-funded Public Service Organizations and Civil Servants… when you discover there is NONE… or that whatever ‘seems’ to be ‘in place’ is proven to be totally DYSFUNCTIONAL.
So yea… good idea.
YOU GOT THAT RIGHT! Just saw your post after I had already written mine up above.
It’s TIME ( for Citizen Review Boards for FIRE agencies as well as POLICE agencies ).
It’s the ONLY WAY to put some ACCOUNTABILITY onto a ‘Public Service Organization’ whose ‘mantra’ is… “Just give us all the tax dollars we want and then leave us the fuck alone… because… of course… you ( the taxpayer ) are not capable of even understanding us. Only WE can understand US.”.
And it’s not all about preventing fatalities, either.
Sometimes… it’s the only way to TRACK the MONEY itself.
Followup…
LOTS of ‘reading material’ out there with regards to ‘Citizen Review Boards’…
https://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports98/police/uspo22.htm
————————————————————————
Citizen Review Mechanisms
Following high-profile police brutality ( and/or corruption/misconduct ) cases, or a series of such cases, communities often demand an external “check” on their police departments. Such calls may also follow investigations finding that the INTERNAL systems for holding officers ACCOUNTABLE are INADEQUATE. Citizen review agencies are often created – or reorganized – as a result.
By 1997, thirty-eight of the fifty largest U.S. cities (76 percent) had some form of citizen review. Of the fourteen cities examined by Human Rights Watch, all the police forces except those in Providence and Washington, D.C. had provisions for some form of external or citizen review.
One of the first independent commissions to call for external review was the Kerner Commission, assembled by President Lyndon Johnson in 1967 following racial tensions and riots.
The idea of citizen review is simple…
HISTORY has SHOWN that police are NOT able or willing to police themselves in a manner acceptable to the public.
————————————————————————
Ya…the way they used to operate reminds my an awful look like the WF Cosa Nostra (C. 2016. G. Olson, All Rights Reserved) does and would like to keep on operating..
It’s also about allowing the GOOD people in the organization to have some place to GO when they see the ‘corruption’ all around them.
What happens to a ‘Battalion Chief’ when his ‘buddy’ DOES just ask him to sign off on his ‘red card’ so he can go start sucking the dollars out of this ‘Incident Management System’ like everyone else is doing… but the guy REFUSES to play the ‘corrupt Boy Scout’ game and just hand the other moron his ‘Merit Badges’?
It’s what they discovered in the 1960’s.
There WERE ‘good cops’… but there were so many ‘BAD ones’ that it took ‘external review’ mechanisms to ‘take the trash out’.
I think that point has been reached in the ‘Fire Service’… from STATE to FEDERAL level.
It’s time to “take the trash out”.
Oops… I certainly didn’t mean to leave out “the MUNICIPAL level” as well.
That’s where some of these ‘Battalion Chiefs’ are actually COMING from… making all that ‘extra money’ standing around and pretending they know how to fight Wildfires.
`Joy A. Collura says
JUNE 11, 2016 AT 5:09 PM
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
quick recap.
Sonny —heart hurting —he was out come along his boulders and I said I was walking to ranch house to grab a bite and as I walked there a sheriff man who was “live” on the YHF asked me where from that point his car was—was the men who died and I said driving or walking/hiking…if walking than follow me back to the man setting boulders he passed and I will switch from sandals to my Oboz and grab my legal permits and a water bottle-
I geared up as he talk to Sonny. Real clean cut eminence quality genuine natural artistic flair to anything he touches kind of man…kind of man if a lady made a crappy meal for him he could pick out the beauty in it…you don’t come around first class top notch folks like that everyday unless you are nearing the limelight/sports/government/Vail. Co folks/certain cities/Hollywood world…excellent hospitality mannerisms- I even called it out—that he is a cyclist—I just know these things because I use to be—and those muscles are genuinely not there anymore for me and replaced with thickness—-he looked like a Leo or Virgo and my husband’s age so I would say about 54-55 but young looking—even though I don’t see him as a Cancer emotional I do believe the YHF has touched him personal and emotional as if it ties into a loss maybe he seen in recent years or he gets a passion and emotionally moved- he has a very community-care about him and looks like any woman who was his- would be forever and beyond. You know what I won’t place a name until I get email confirmation that it is ok- but he was on the YHF and he was at an important part of the fire that day—he was at a spot surrounded by fire. He was very alert of surroundings today on hike so I can see in anything he does; he shines in the human factor- I have been around the limelight world and he had that accommodating style to him…if you listen to his day…this kind of man “deserved” the awards and accolades more so than any Gary Cordes who frauded the world allowing the world to think he saved Bryan Smith. Ok…I know I am odd but when I was telling him about the school teacher in Wickenburg…I saw a vision of a lady who died too young for her life tied to him so way who was an educator; brilliance with numbers and a mentor to many- strong lady…I will have to run that by the man but I had been running low on water and the sun was getting me so maybe false what I saw but a stunning woman and a lady I would know if she was alive-
Terrible storm brewing in–I will take pics and send the crew here an email—so it was suppose to be a 20 minute in hike but I had flank pain due to kidney stones so I slowed the two alot—sorry sir ?
when we got back he now knows where his feet land when he hikes the Yarnell terrain- what is legal and not-
what a by chance moment but hasn’t this whole journey been that way.
after that we noted all the eateries were closed-
so we went to Mountainaire gas station Peeples Valley and split a bean burrito and met the incident command 3 —2 old kind men and I said to let Alan know excellent interview—but watch his “ums”—they said they would harp on him on it- Well, when we got back the dogs wanted to dip so now I am here but I want to go get some photos of storm brewing in— but before I go—Alan Sinclair’s team phone number is 928-415-4970 for tenderfoot fire information or go to inciweb .nwcg. gov/incident/4774 or text follow tenderfootfire1 to 40404
I will await email reply if the man wants to be public or private- I would think at this point private but who knows…more to come..
at Date: Jun 11, 2016 12:39 AM an email sat in my inbox that I just got—
Hi Again Joy;
For your information:
I exported the “view-sheds” into Google Earth with Heywhatsthat using the Firefox browser on my laptop.
You can get this software for your Droid or Iphone by following the instructions on this page.
Hotshot crews everywhere should have this software loaded onto their smartphones, because:
1) It shows what a look-out can “see” from any given location;
2) If you know the location of the nearest radio repeater (for central AZ that means Towers Mountain) or fire base station or another hand-held radio then the software tells you where you might go to obtain “line of sight” with that location to get radio com.
Concerning the W Bros, I only talked with Mike in Walnut Grove. He was pretty exhausted, what with the phone ringing off the hook all day. He had just returned from reconnoitering the fire
by driving several miles off on Whitehead Ranch Road below where it veers off Zonia Mine Road. To my surprise, what he related pretty much correlates with the latest Inciweb fire map. I had expected the fire to have blasted right through that area.
Apparently the fire guys spent a lot of time trying remonstrating with Pat W. to evacuate from his ranch-house (at the end of Whitehead Ranch Road) but fat chance. “Evac” is antithetical to his very quiddity. He’s very well prepped; over the last several years he’s done the defensible zone gig, constructed a sizeable cistern, bought gas-powered water pumps and hoses, etc.
Anyway, according to the “Planned Actions” on the “Outlook” listing for the fire on Inciweb:
Projected Incident Activity
Prepping for indirect fire line around north end of fire.
Continue to monitor fire spread towards indirect line. Possible burn out operations.
Well Joy…”Prepping for indirect fire line” explains the dozer…except because the road is bladed periodically by the county, and is already a pretty good fire break, this ought to be pretty interesting…to see what exact strategy and what tactics they will use; especially exactly where and how long the indirect fire line will be.
Later AND THEN….
than over on Bill Gabbert’s
http://wildfiretoday.c o m/2016/06/08/arizona-tenderfoot-fire-causes-evacuations-in-yarnell/
I learned Johnny Coldwater says:
June 11, 2016 at 8:35 am Received several phone calls, two dozers committed! Sorry, (ouch) I was reminded that this is a BLM fire and BLM doesn’t use dozers, usually, if at all. Understand light on land policy. So if it (Tenderfoot) is running away from populated areas it will eventually run into something that doesn’t burn.
THAT HELPED ME ON MY ANGER WITH NO DOZERS ON THE FIRE HERE-
Reply
weird- how did three comments post the same (ONE IS ENOUGH 🙂 )- darn cell; ugh—anyways- started my first set of foias for the tenderfoot fire and had my day filled with interviews-
Some locals hid out during evacuation and had a hot dog roast and they said “hope you got a stick long enough- we can use the backburn as campfire-”
I am awaiting the FOIAS before I post my interviews so they cannot narrate off that-
Robert the Second says
JUNE 9, 2016 AT 10:57 PM
Gary,
Thanks for the reply and I am pleased to hear that your Hot Shots went on to other – some in fire – very successful careers having worked for you.
And those Hot Shots carried on the Old School way of doing things. Once Hot Shot leadership fails to continue this tradition, the HS program will suffer, and it will be very difficult to get it back
Even though I did not work on the Coconino NF, I still respected and followed the leadership tenets of Bill Buck.
And I say,
I am very pleased to learn that you too are a disciple of the greatest fire god to ever saddle up to hit the fire line in the history of wildland firefighting. Perhaps we can set aside our bickering and petty differences while we celebrate his memory and that of the most “efficient, productive and proudest” hotshot crew he ever worked with?
Of course, I will also offer some exculpatory evidence that is in my possession as well that will no doubt bolster your poor opinion of my leadership style. These two examples were made by a forest dispatcher who had a quick wit and they were routed to the entire management team on the Santa Fe National Forest. The organizational chart for the Santa Fe Hotshots was ultimately approved by the forest supervisor and remained in effect during my tenure there.
And finally…I have included the remaining two documents for your amusement and to assist you in a little stroll down memory lane. My files of historical documents and photos contain all kinds of relevant as well as irrelevant material.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
Whoops,
Actually Bill Buck said, “Gary has developed the Happy Jack Hotshot crew into the most efficient, productive and proud[est} hotshot crew I have ever known.”
And so you see…being the youngest hotshot crew boss in WF history is NOT my claim to fame. This letter from Bill Buck however…is.
Double Whoops…I assume too much. I should have said,
I am very pleased to learn that you too are a disciple of the greatest fire god and Type I fire team Incident Commander to ever saddle up to hit the fire line in the history of wildland firefighting.
Gary,
The organizational chart you posted is by far the clearest most easily understandable diagram I have ever seen. Any questions? Haha!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I’ll try and post here because this keeps going into cyberspace if I post it lower.
You posted: “And robbing hotshot crews of their most valuable leadership resources has been a contributing factor in burnovers for quite some time, …”
First off, there is no one ‘robbing’ HS Crews. They are doing this voluntarily. They have a choice to say no.
Second, many Asst. Supts. and others view this as an opportunity to work on Trainee Task Book positions.
As far as this being the “contributing factor in burnovers for quite some time” comment, where are you coming up with this one?
What fires and what burnovers are you referring to? The only one I’m familiar with is the 2006 New York Peak Fire in NV.
It is alluded to in the alleged ‘Factual’ report on page 10 as an “Influencing Factor” on Division C.. “Assumption of Crew Boss (CRWB) role for the Eldorado Hot Shots. “
Woodsman,
And for transparency, there were others:
“Lookout, crew member #2, and another crew member assume roles as Squad Bosses for IHC
One Squad boss assumes role of Dozer Boss (DOZB)”
RTS,
Please excuse my intrusion into your conversation with Woodsman. I agree with you that (t) positions provide valuable experience for FFs as they advance, but to work it has to be a formal process, not just, “We need a warm body in this position.”
From what I’m seeing here, these battlefield promotions are often haphazard and poorly documented. There ought to be a qualifying exam for each position, just to be sure the candidate understands the protocols, responsibilities, and any paperwork, etc. Trainees should need a certain number of hours in the position on Type 4 or 5 incidents first, as you have suggested. The trainee should be evaluated by underlings and supervisors after the job is complete, and those should be recorded.
In earlier discussions about Marsh’s position on the Horseshoe 2 fire, I wonder if the records were altered (or never entered properly) after some HS crews refused his assignments. [I’m sure I’m not using the correct terminology here, not a FF.] That should never happen. The records should be sacrosanct and permanent. They should be taken seriously enough to be sure they’re accurate and useful. I know about the books each crew member keeps, but they need to be backed up by management as well.
Then, there has to be in place a way to assure that trainees are surrounded by experienced crews and overhead. Too many trainees at one time, as Charlie has pointed out, is a disaster.
This all sounds very complicated, but we have computer systems that keep track of billions of friends and kitty videos, so you know it can be done.
Muzzy,
No intrusion considered. It’s open for anyone to comment.
You make several valid points, many of which are already being addressed in their training and Task Books, like the qualifying exams, record-keeping, experienced mentors, and the like.
It also may differ Unit by Unit and case by case.
Maybe, but how do you explain Marsh allowed out on his own, refusing to collaborate with an actual DIVS? The whole south end of the fire was dysfunctional, but no one was aware until after it blew up. Why was David P confused about Marsh’s position at HS2? It seems like a lot of this is verbal and ad hoc. And some free-lancing. It seems like it’s all ok unless there is a serious incident within the incident.
Ya…in general Muzzy you nailed it…and as usual my brother Fred is defending the system to protect his buddies who profit from the system.
You are not a professional wildland firefighter but you GET it and Fred is a professional wildland firefighter and he is lost.
And I am going to quote my favorite person to quote, me, to make this point that was made by John Dougherty in this article,
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/yarnell-hill-fire-the-granite-mountain-hotshots-never-shouldve-been-deployed-mounting-evidence-shows-6656696
“When the state relinquished control of the situation by making Marsh division supervisor, he had authority to move his crew wherever he believed was necessary, without seeking permission from superiors.
“This removed an important check-and-balance,” Olson says.
If Marsh had been required to contact a state division supervisor — one not influenced by the structural-protection philosophy espoused by Willis — he surely would have been ordered to remain in the already-burned terrain or to move south along the jeep road that provided clear access to a main highway, Olson surmises.
“That is a direct causal factor in their deaths because there wasn’t another level of supervision outside of thinking like a structural firefighter,” Olson says.”
It can be done, but in general you have it right and Fred is well…”Fucked Up Fred” even though I love him like my bastard brother from another mother. He really tries my patience.
And I am sure everyone is tired of hearing about how it was done in my day, but in seven years I left my job as a hotshot superintendent to take on other duties ZERO times and it was rarely done with anyone. If you want a FUCKING division supervisor…order a fucking division supervisor..if you want to be a fucking division supervisor…take an assignment as a fucking division supervisor.
Gary,
Chill out with the FUF thing, otherwise f**k off!.
Just saying how it’s done. I am NOT defending it on large fires, only on Type 4 and Type 3 fires as I explained to Woodsman. I do not think that is an abuse of ‘the system.’ Other than that, I agree with you, order them.
I’m going to tell you what is wrong with this system from a practical standpoint. You see…I don’t give a shit about people’s task books or how fast they get ahead and how far they can go by playin’ fuck fuck with the system.
Do you know why hotshot crews have 20 members? Because it has been determined after decades which included trying other numbers…that is the optimum number to have on a crew. Hotshot crew assignments are based on 20 members, crews can’t go “out of area” or “off forest” without at least 18 members present.
What happens when you take a crew boss away from the crew? Everybody bumps up one position but nobody fills in the BOTTOM.
That means from then on the crew is functioning at a less than optimum number of crew members.
Nobody say’s they have to do less work because they have less people. That means everyone else has to work harder and do more than they otherwise would so some jack off is looking for his next job and promotion instead of doing the one he signed up for.
BULLSHIT!
OK…I choose fuck off. You have earned that nickname my old friend. Starting with telling me JD Killick founded the Santa Fe Hotshots…so fuck off Fucked Up Fred. And most recently telling me the Happy Jack Hotshots didn’t get much work done on the fire line…Fucked Up Fred!
I would really have liked to have seen you say that to the Happy Jack Hotshots back in the day on the fire line…they would really have fucked you up.
And besides…I didn’t even give you that nickname, Mr. Turbyfill did. What the fuck is wrong with you talking to him the way you did?
You should be ashamed of yourself. He gave his son to this fucked up profession and he has earned the right to come on this blog and say anything he wants without putting up with your shit…Fucked Up Fred.
I have been wishing you and your bitch (non-gender specific) Bob Iron Man Powers would leave here anyway.
Robert the Second says
JUNE 9, 2016 AT 10:57 PM
Gary,
Thanks for the reply and I am pleased to hear that your Hot Shots went on to other – some in fire – very successful careers having worked for you.
What the fuck does that mean Fucked Up Fred? I’ll tell you what it means you asshole. It means you thin some of them were successful IN SPITE of having worked for you.
What an asshole you are. I have never said a fucking word about your crew because I know they were a good crew…all hotshot crews are good crews. And Bill Buck was just being nice to me, we weren’t the best crew he ever worked with, how could anybody judge such a thing?
You and your self help guru required reading of the classics for crew members life coach bullshit. You really did miss you calling…except you wouldn’t have made any money as a life coach…so there is always that.
I have some shocking news for you my old friend, you are not anywhere near as smart as you think you are. You IQ is very high, but you really fall short where the rubber meets the road. And that’s where it counts.
Mr. Turbyfill really got after me way back when because he didn’t like me saying a causal factor in the deaths of the crew was the fact that they were a hybrid crew with a mixed message from their employers…a structural fire department, but I just said back to him. “I am deeply sorry for your loss” because that is the only thing I have the right to say to him.
Gary,
You’re amazing, like an old woman that keeps bringing up the past, when it was supposedly settled. So, ‘The Women’s Rules’ must apply to you too then.
However, I still have a great deal of respect for you because of your Hot Shot status.
Mr. Turbyfill has the right to call me whatever he wants as far as I’m concerned. I have always been respectful to Mr. Turbyfill, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
So what if I said that you guys built less fireline because you guys practiced the progressive line construction method.
So what? I really have a difficult time believing you are really that thin skinned. You really are not used to having people disagree with you, are you? Except your lovely and loving wife ….
You posted: “I would really have liked to have seen you say that to the Happy Jack Hotshots back in the day on the fire line…they would really have fucked you up.”
Oh yeah, that’s the answer. The Bully Method! Yes, I would have mentioned it and then shown them how much more effective it was.
I don’t recall what else you were ranting about, but I think that’s the gist of it.
Oh, and one more thing, keep on wishing I would leave, because it ain’t gonna happen.
You know, the ol’ wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first. Keep on wishing.
Have a nice f**king day.
Thanks Fred.
Also, there needs to be some formal feedback, to correct mistakes and reinforce correct, safe procedure.
Yes, I liked to keep things simple when I was a hotshot AND I took orders as well as I gave them.
Oh…and one more thing. Here is a photo of the last Happy Jack Hotshot crew that Bill Buck was specifically writing about. The Long Valley Ranger District on the Coconino National Forest ALWAYS produced top notch crews, but I am here to tell you my friends…that was one BAD ASS crew.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
And yes…that is Big Willie flipping a double bird over the hard hat of my assistant crew boss for seven years. Big Willie was always up to something but he was unstoppable as a first Pulaski.
And yes, that is Sonny from Texas who had a degree in forestry and who was making some money before beginning his career as a professional forester wearing his crew cap after I had been asked by my assistant, “Hardhats or crew caps?” for our yearly crew photo and I replied, “Hard hats.” Since we were just coming off a fire on our home district right before the photo was taken. Sonny snuck in his crew had just to be different because Sonny ALWAYS had to be different.
That crew was full of high energy can-do gung ho MF’s who could all TAKE CHARGE when and if they were needed to do so Fred…so fuck off even thought I love you brother. It’s just that usually they LET me be in charge because they believed I would make the best decisions in their best interests at all times…and I did.
If you think being the king of the hill among 19 other highly educated (for the most part) aggressive, highly experienced, trained and super charged hotshots is easy…just try it. It was a “Lord of the Flies” contest nearly every day but I loved it.
So…yes, in spite of our bickering and petty differences my hat is off to Fred who did what I could never have done, led a hotshot crew for as many years as he did. I was burned out when my time to leave came and I was grateful I HAD to leave since I never would have left on my own.
AND I want to tell you one more thing about this crew. They gave far more to the USFS than they got back just as almost all wildland firefighters do. Because I know you are wondering, “What is the real underlying problem with wildland firefighting Gary?”
Well…I will be happy to answer that. I railed against the Arizona State Forestry because they fought the Yarnell Hill Fire on the CHEAP and that was a causal factor in the deaths of the crew. But the truth is…EVERYBODY fights wildfires on the CHEAP, even the silver back mountain gorilla…the USFS.
In my day there was one (1) semi permanent position on the Happy Jack Hotshots and I was only guaranteed six (6) months of work and subject to being laid off for six (6) months and I was always laid off for several months. Everyone else, including my assistant crew boss and squad bosses were temporary/seasonal employees.
That number is now up to sever (7) per hotshot crew and I am pretty sure all of those are guaranteed year round employment with full benefits which is pretty damn good compared to how it used to be. Hotshot crew bosses now top out as GS-9’s whereas I topped out at a GS-7.
And I originally took the Happy Jack Hotshot crew boss job as a GS-4, hey…how do you think somebody with my limited years was wired into the job? It was a lateral transfer and therefore non-competitive. There are a lot of tricks “they” use, and most of them are used to FUCK the employees.
So…what in a nutshell is wrong with the entire fucking corrupted bastardized system? The wildland firefighting community fights wildfires with a predominantly low paid temporary work force who all give more than they get betting on the come. And sometimes it works out for some of them in the long run, but not for many.
Just imagine if your local structural city fire department was run that way even without the very strong firefighters union? Just imagine our military fighting our wars with that kind of workforce? It is a FUCKING miracle and speaks volumes for those who fight the daily fight that the dead wildland firefighters are not stacked up like cord wood every fucking year.
CHANGE THE SYSTEM…STOP KILLING WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS WHO DON’T GET PAID TO RISK THEIR LIVES YOU CHEAP FUCKS! STOP BLEEDING THE TREASURY DRY WITH UNFUNDED WARS OF CHOICE, REBUILD THE AMERICAN MIDDLE CLASS BY STARTING WITH WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS…that is all, carry on.
Whoa! You are the hammer! Here, here!
In fact Fred, I will give you just ONE example. Look at the guy who is the second hotshot to my left in the photo. His name is Tom Thatcher.
Tom was with me for several years. Once the Happy Jack crew slot was transferred to Santa Fe Tom did one year with Mormon Lake and then joined the Marines.
Tom ended up flying Blackhawk helicopters for the Marines and once his service with them was over, he joined the United States Custom Service, Air Interdiction Branch as a Blackhawk helicopter pilot.
The last time I talked to Tom, I was coordinating inter agency drug interdiction operations out of down town Phoenix and Tom was flying Blackhawks to support inter agency drug interdiction operations out of Tucson.
Tom was nobody’s bitch (non-gender specific), the Happy Jack Hotshots didn’t have any bitches (non-gender specific) on it. You would have found that out if you would have met them on the fire line.
OK Gary Take a break. You have been out of Fire Longer than me
what 25, 26 Years?
I thought you agreed to be civil.
We neither one know what is going on in todays Fires or Todays Hot Shot Crews. All you are doing is Showing your Old.
I am pretty sure today’s hotshot crews are cutting hand line.
We did the same thing Fred said was his new age way to cut line except we didn’t say it was done by “modules”, we did it with squads..
This certainly included the “leap frog” method.
So…except for the addition of a broom and a military shovel fitted with a longer handle…please tell me, what is so different about today’s hotshot crews…Bob?
I keep hearing that, but so far neither you,nor Fred nor anyone has told me anything hotshot crews are doing different today with we did back so long ago.
By all means…this is your chance to shine and shut me down…name some…name one. The only thing I have heard from Fred is somehow he knows the plans made by the overhead won’t work so he and others like him just hang back and wait for their plans to fall apart so Fred can save the day…or something like that? I really got lost in that whole conversation.
Tell me something I don’t know Bob about how hotshot crews do it today…please. Tell me something that is new, different and improved…please.
And do you call Fred’s repeated insults towards my crew and me to be civil Bob?
Not that I want in this argument so I will just input Information.
The crews today have more full time positions.
GS 9 Superintendents OLD WAS GS7
GS 7 Assistance and 2 GS 6 crew Bosses.
OLD was GS6 and GS5
This equates into more ability to Train in the winter and to have crews more qualified on the Line positions.
Training positions and Line overhead assignments on Fires.
As you are well aware these Crews all see more fires per year than most other Fire Fighters. Their overhead there for have much more experience in wild land Fire.
The Crews were developed to have overhead to do the supervision, A Overhead could be pulled to fill a Training position or qualified position with out affecting the crews ability to function.
On FS and BLM crews today a GS 9 has a considerable amount of training before they become a Superintendent. Most are DIVS Qualified before they are promoted to the Super Job.
The GS 7 is a Minimum STLD qualified in Crew Dozer and Engine.
There is a whole new concept to running crews today compared to when we were their.
Supervisory training starts at the GS 5 level.
The ICS programs and the S courses along with Training assignments on fires prepare Fire Fighters way more than our time.
You do not get to a GS 9 with out going through the steps GS3, GS4, GS5, GS6, GS7, GS9.
That in its self today takes 12 to 15 years.
A GS 11 or GS 12 FMO has to now have a Bachelors Degree.
The GS7 Asst. are promoting into the GS9 positions.
So that’s the Change Gary.
That’s what RTS went through to stay a HS Superintendent to retire at the GS9 Level
In todays world there are no more 23 year old Superintendents they are more like 30 Plus.
At least in the FS and BLM.
Supervision Training and People Management Training are way higher priorities than in our time.
Crews are managed under the full decision process where every one has a say. The Super Makes the Final Decision.
Building Line has not changed. Management has its a different world out there.
Granit Mountain was Playing Catch up to the Government Crews. They were Outsiders they could not even transfer with Promotion into the Federal system. They were stuck in the Structure Fire System Promotion was limited to the City system. At the Foremen and above level.
On insults— remember the old days crews always pecked at each other it was never considered insults it was considered Crew pride.
Cutting line, mop up, hiking, best saws, biggest crewman, best fallers. Get the point its a Game of pride.
It was the normal fun and Games.
I thought I made it clear that I am not interested in vague, generalized statements about how the system has changed, what I was referring to is “what has changed when a hotshot crew gets to the fire and starts to work?”
What I expected you to say, was the huge increased impact of WUI which I would buy for engine crews and overhead etc. but not for hotshot crews.
What is different about the duties and responsibilities of a hotshot crew to fight a wildfire? How do they do it different today than how you and I did it?
That is what Fred and I were disagreeing about, specifically LINE CONSTRUCTION METHODS. How is it that I don’t understand just how complicated it is for the hotshot of today than in my day regarding what hotshots do on the fire?
And I don;t believe that was what Fred was doing with his insults. That is what you and I used to do going back and forth about R-5 versus R-3, but nice try on defending Fred.
Never mind, you said, “Building Line has not changed.” So you and I are in full agreement. That is all I was referring to.
I know the general wildfire world has changed. It is now being run by something called “Battalion Chiefs” who are supported by their APOLOGISTS so they can all play stinky finger together at the exclusive club Fred belongs to, you know…where I will sign off on your task book if you will sign off on mine.
“Crews are managed under the full decision process where every one has a say. The Super Makes the Final Decision.”
That is what I keep hearing from both you and Fred, but that is what YOU both did both before my time, during my time and ever since in Fred’s case..so THAT one is definitely NOT new and different.
I am still waiting after all of thee years for someone other than you and Fred to tell me that is the way hotshot crews in general (there are always exceptions, like you and Fred were exceptions and apparently Fred learned it from you) work and run their crews.
And if someone steps forward, identifies themselves and gives their background and says I (and the Coconino, specifically Bill Buck) was the anomaly than so be it, or was your style the aberration?
And just to be clear…when I say the Coconino way…I am really saying the BILL BUCK way since Fred knows who he is. As I keep saying, I didn’t create that system…I was raised in it so that is all I knew or ever saw. although it worked pretty well from my standpoint.
Although I will admit one thing. Eric Marsh definitely organized and ran his crew in a manner that would have made Bill Buck proud.
The whole drop and give me 20 (or whatever it was) if you step on the tiles, etc. And Marsh definitely gave an ultimatum (in my opinion) that ordered the crew off out of the black over Jesse Steed’s (and probably others) objections.
The system I espouse has one really major drawback…that is potentially FATAL for the crew. And that is IF the top down manager is a habitual fuck up and train wreck looking for a place to happen. In spite of everything I have said in my defense of the Bill Buck Way, I NEVER would and NEVER did overrule my squad bosses or anyone on my crew that way. If anyone ever expressed safety concerns to me (except a rookie who just has big eyes and wanted to rabbit out of fear of the unknown) I damn sure listened.
It’s just that never happened because I had my head screwed on straight. That is why I was the crew boss in the first place. I don’t know why Eric Marsh was the crew boss?
In any case, you are right about one thing. I need to take a break from IM and get back to writing the book that I may finish, the much acclaimed and highly anticipated tome, “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters” just as soon as this “discussion” between you and I is finished since my last book seems to have bombed out, it is about a fire that was too long ago and the body count was too low.
I gave up a long time ago on changing your or Fred’s minds and I am the first one to admit that the wildfire world doesn’t give a damn what anybody thinks about how they are doing things.
That won’t change until there are congressional hearings…and then you will see some changes…like robbing from Peter to pay Paul, bleeding hotshot crews of their overhead instead of ordering the overhead you need in the first place. THAT would be a good policy change to start with. I think Muzzy should write the new policy for the NWCG…he gets it.
OK The Hot Shot Crews today are being put more and more into the Structure protection program.
Structures are no longer part of the Fuel.
They use HS crews to build line around Structures and housing Tracts or Million Dollar homes. They no longer just go out and Build hot line.
If GM is an example when did crews start charring 4 Chain Saws on a Brush fire or any Fire. That I would say is new as well.
Two saws was plenty in my day they could keep 4 people busy just throwing Brush.
The rest of your point is???????????
According to many of your earlier posts, you were doing that way back in the stone age…so that is definitely NOT new and different.
My point is this, Fred and I disagreed on new and dramatic changes in how hotshots fight fire, specifically Fred said we didn’t get much work done because we didn’t understand or use the new breakthrough methods he innovated, the Leap Frog Method.
And then YOU as usual jumped in to defend your Bitch (non-gender specific) because you bastard son Fucked Up Fred can’t defend himself very well in your opinion, so you always seem to feel the need to do it for him.
But you are right about one thing…WHY am I arguing with you? You don’t amount to a pimple on Fred’s ass…so, fuck off old man.
And other than his longevity as a hotshot crew boss to respect…I think Fred would have been much happier going to work for Tony Robbins way back when so why do I even care what he things or why should I even try to talk some sense into his head? He proved a long time ago he has a one track mind just like you do, it was only Marsh’s and Steed’s fault…no one else’s because the didn’t follow the 10 and the 18 to the letter of the law, blah, blah, blah.
This non productive, circular discussion is over for me, I made the point I wanted to make up above.
Whoops, “And then YOU as usual jumped in to defend your Bitch (non-gender specific) MASTER because you bastard son Fucked Up Fred can’t defend himself very well in your opinion, so you always seem to feel the need to do it for him.
Another hike that Joy is speaking about with a person interested in what went on in the fire. He was in the Ranch House Area and working on the incident- Joy is going to seek permission to identify this person–he was privy to some things that would likely be known from his official position. Not all were able to get up to see the area where the men came down. Well, would you know that we are able to use lands that belong to friends to legally get near enough to the area that a nice view can be seen and area photographed.–a short way that even an old timer with six heart stints can do on a hike. It questions why would people spend $680,000.00 to put in a parking lot when a lot adjoining the area could be bought at retail prices for $74,000 and include more than four acres of flat land parking. I am sure Gorden Ackley would make a better deal if you bought up to 3 of those parcels (he has them advertised at 44 grand apiece for 4.4acres of nice parcels right on the edge of state land. You would need to buy at least one of those and a parcel along Candy Lane to get private access to the site–but if you bought his whole flat land subdivision it would be less money than half the price of that cost of the parking lot on HWY 89. Who are these people that want to put the hiking trail miles away and as difficult as possible to get to the top of the Weavers as possible.
See we hiked right from my front gate here on Mountainaire drive. But if you had that land the small hike we made yesterday would be cut this in half–You would actually be able–as Gordon Ackley is–to drive on a very nicely graded gravel road to within a half mile of the site and then that hike is some uphill but totally easily done by people of limited hiking ability–even could be made wheel chair accessible since there is and old mining burro trail that goes right up to the view of the site. Well with the left over after buying the land–Say $500,000 or so, you just build a tram on the small part that a wheel chair person would need. Anyway what are these handicap laws? Don’t they have to build a tram for the people that can not make it on foot because of handicap reasons. I myself could use that tram.
Who the hell are these planners that love to spend tax dollars so foolishly? They certainly do not look at other options to save money and make it easier for people to get up to the site–who are they working for and what agenda do they have–it is certainly not for the tax paying citizen or the person that is really wanting to get up there in a reasonable and easier shorter way. That guy we hiked yesterday was appreciative–He is going to make the long hike and he will then see how foolish it was to make the parking lot way down the mountain (about 4 miles from Yarnell) along Hwy 89. He wondered why there are signs up–no access to the incident site at the beginning of coming in to Glen Isla from the Ranch House Cafe area. That should read unless you know the land owners and right people that know the route to get there.
The tenderfeet fire –Tenderfoot in King’s English–is 10% contained. The wild land fighters had a bit of relief yesterday with a bit of rain from a sudden thunder shower–maybe 1/2 inch–the ground got a good dust settler. The retardant streak did work since the fire was being gently breezed to the east so did not back up against the retardant line. It may have saved five to ten houses at the cost of a few million dollars. The houses should have all been OK without the retardant since the local fire department and people are still skiddish after the last fire and likely all those homes had defensable space. The retardant dump was a redundant situation and likely did more harm by not allowing the intervening brush to be burned away.
Here is what will continue to happen–the brush already built up between that retardant dump will now continue to build up adding more dead brush to that dehydrated manzanita and a nice wide strip next those houses will eventually catch fire and create and even greater hazard. It should have been allowed to burn back to 89 but the magnificent brains of the fire fighting association that runs these things believes millions spent and a delay of the inevitable is a better display in the public eye.
Hold your nose if you go around that agent orange retardant on the east side of the Hwy- We keep dumping retardant close to human lives–that natural smoke is a better alternative. Now it is time to keep close tabs on the effects on human lives–but in this case it is similar to a case similar to where Hitler had some of his Chlorine gases reverse and kill a few of his own troops. The prevailing winds are from the west here and the only reason they reversed during the Yarnell incident of 6-30-2013 was because of those thunderstorms to the NE. So we in Yarnell and Glen Isla have some consolation there knowing that those lung killing and hidden chemicals in that retardant will be heading the other way.
Being an old miner, I now know about the asbestos threat. As a kid with my dad I worked in some of those asbestos deposits–it is a common association in serpentine deposits and you can see the fibers in small fingernail sized pockets through out that rock. Serpentine looks like jade except it is softer and easily carved. Once carved and polished by naked eye fools you into thinking it is jade. Near Red Rock, NM are deposits of Ricolite, a banded form of serpentine–white and green bands in a deposit some 40 ft. wide. That is much associated with asbestos and I am certain long time miners from that deposit have their share of mesothelioma. Now what I am getting at is that talc has a very close association with serpentine and asbestos. It too often carries the asbestos as do certain clays associated with talc deposits. Clay is one of the known chemicals used in this agent orange retardant. The orange color is iron oxide added to the mix. You see we do not know the clay used in the mix but we do know that iron oxide powder is not a good thing to breath–but we certainly do not know the other chemicals added to the slop to the tune of 8-16%–this is trade secret shit that they do not want you to know. This stuff is like China–shipped from overseas–and believe me the Chinese that shipped that dog and cat killing dog and cat food did not give a shit they were adding anti freeze to their food nor care that our animals suffered and died. Joy even had a cat affected that died from it. I had mine to get sick. But how much more important we get a real count of the chemicals in this retardant seeing it is shipped in from countries across the ocean. Those people see dollar signs and give a shit less about our health or if 99 people die in 3 years since their retardant drops. And the way FS covers up shit of 19 deaths you can see there are some there that give a shit less as well.
Thanks Gary and WTKTT, John Dougherty, Investigative Media People, Otis and the like here that do care about the people and what is being hidden from the public eye. You nay sayers to wanting to have the truth out are doing no justice to the general good. Shame for you that keep the truth from the public. You are a disgrace to behold.
Thanks Gary for making the point that Eric Marsh, once appointed Division Supervisor could do anything he wanted with his crew and did. I had not applied that logic to the situation–then there might be a slim chance that Marsh could shoulder the largest part of blame for putting his at unnecessary risk. And perhaps we could say even if his superiors wanted to protect structures knowing they were risking the mens lives, he still shoulders most of the blame for disregarding the safety of the men.
But please explain–since Marsh was moved to Division Superviser, does that automatically make Steed the supervisor of that crew? This structure protection by risking men not equipped to fight structure fires makes no sense at all. Why kind of educated idiots think this is a good idea–expecially after seeing the 19 dead just for that reason. That is a no brainer.
But going the other way, where you have men that know the structure work and are equipped to do that, it makes no sense to send them out on a raging wild fire. However, it does make good sense to send them out if they have a budding fire such as a lightening strike in the boulders or a road side fire that some idiot threw a cigarette out and it is where they can drive their truck to douse the flames. I see too many ladies and some gentlemen that don’t look like they better get to far away from their fire truck or a local coffee and donut shop. But I can see how physical conditioning is not as important in the structure work as it is in fellows under 100F + temperatures using that Pulaski like a MF, and moving boulders, logs, and dragging heavy duty chain saws with 40 to 80 pound packs on their backs. I would say these wild land fire fighters are the Marines of fire fighting while the Army is the structure fighter. Doesn’t make them any less, just that it seems less demanding to be a structure fighter.
I was in the Army–busting boulders with a sledge before I went in so I did not need the physical training–boot camp was actually a snap and bore for me. Same with the structure fighters, I see some fine physical specimens and some that would do best dragging a hose or yapping on the radio. But I don’t see no laggards on the wild land crews–although any man has his limits–and GMHS had been streached to the max–Marsh would have been the first to know that as well. Well if he is a hero, it is because he showed the world what not to do with your crew–that can save lots of lives, albeit at a great sacrifice.
We of the citizenry are happy for this site–it ought to wake up plenty for the changes that need to be made in wild land fire fighting.
**
** NEW INFORMATION ABOUT THE ‘GRANITE MOUNTAIN’ MOVIE.
**
** IT’S NOT ABOUT YARNELL AT ALL.
Lots of ‘press’ appearing today about this “Granite Mountain” movie thing, because yesterday was the day that Bonaventure Studios made their announcement that the project goes into full-blown ‘Production’ ( Principal photography, etc. ) phase this coming MONDAY.
So much for the rumored ‘boot camp’ approach. A couple of workouts at the ‘Crossfit’ gym in Sante Fe… and the actors are going to just jump right into it.
We are now hearing from prducer Lorenzo di Bonaventura himself, the guy who signs EVERYONE paychecks on this… including the screenwriters.
Bonaventura himself says the movie is NOT ( repeat, NOT ) going to even explore the question of what actually happened at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Bonaventura now says ( quote )…
We don’t feel that it is our job to determine what the record is.
Our job is to present who these people were and the dedication and sacrifices they made.
We don’t want to point a finger.
We want to celebrate who they were.”
Other ‘news’ about the film that has now ’emerged’…
1. The movie will FOCUS on Eric Marsh and ( are you ready? ) Brendan McDonough.
The ‘story’ will primarily be told through ‘their eyes only’… so to speak.
From the mouth of Director Joseph Kosinski…
———————————————————————
Two characters in particular drive the film — “the guy at the very top and the guy at the very bottom of the Granite Mountain Hotshots,” Kosinski said. At the top was Marsh. “He had the notion of creating the first municipal hotshot team and worked for years to achieve it.
“On the other end, we’ve got Brendan McDonough ( Miles Teller ), a kid who grew up in Prescott and found his life going down the wrong path. By offering Brendan a slot on the Hotshot team as a rookie, Marsh gave him an opportunity that no one else was willing to do.
Though the story is told primarily through THEIR eyes, we get to know something about all the guys on the crew.”
——————————————————————–
2. Actor Josh Brolin is, in fact, playing Eric Marsh, but actor Miles Teller, who was the second name actor announced for the move, will NOT be playing Jesse Steed as was rumored. Actor Miles Teller will be playing ( are you still ready? ) Brendan McDonough.
3. Producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura also now actually draws a directl parallel between this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie and the other one where guys die at the end… “The Perfect Storm”… right down to the part where the movie will only spend about FIVE minutes, near the end, covering the actual event that made the dead men famous in the first place.
From the mouth of Producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura…
———————————————————————–
“The tragedy will not be ignored, of course. It’s just NOT the focus of the film.” Di Bonaventura compared it to “The Perfect Storm,” the 2000 film in which George Clooney and Mark Wahlberg play commercial fisherman on a doomed trip. “The event they lost their lives in in that movie is probably, I don’t know, I’m guessing it’s five minutes of that movie, a two-hour movie,” he said. “It’s very similar here.”
————————————————————————
The following article has direct comments from only 3 people…
Movie Producer: Lorenzo di Bonaventura
Movie Director: Joseph Kosinski
Movie Consultant: Amanda Marsh
The Arizona Republic – AZCENTRAL
Article Title: ‘Granite Mountain,’ movie version of fallen Yarnell firefighters’ story, to begin production
Published: 11:32 a.m. MST June 9, 2016
By: Bill Goodykoontz, USA TODAY NETWORK
http://www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/movies/billgoodykoontz/2016/06/09/granite-mountain-movie-hotshots-yarnell-fire/85651062/
From the article…
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Production begins Monday, June 13, on “Granite Mountain,” a film about the Yarnell Hill Fire that killed 19 firefighters in 2013.
Filmmaking is a long and arduous process; the movie is not scheduled for release until Sept. 22, 2017. But when it does hit theaters, don’t expect a strict retelling of the horrors of the fire.
“This movie’s not about tragedy,” said producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura. “This movie is about the lives of these people and what they were trying to put on the line, and what it meant to them to do what they were doing and what it meant to the community to have them doing it.”
That’s important to Amanda Marsh, the widow of Eric Marsh, who was killed in the fire. She will be played by Jennifer Connelly; Josh Brolin plays Eric. Josh Brolin will play Granite Mountain Hotshot Eric
“I want the WORLD to understand what it is like to be a hotshot and what it is like to be a hotshot wife,” said Amanda Mash. “Neither is easy. Both come with their own sense of deep responsibility and commitment to the job. I hope Eric’s personality comes through and that people get a sense of who Eric was.”
The film, which previously had been tentatively titled “No Exit,” will be shot mostly in Santa Fe, N.M., due in part to the Arizona summer heat. The cast also includes Miles Teller, Jeff Bridges, Taylor Kitsch and James Badge Dale. According to director Joseph Kosinski, it is a story of “true heroism.”
“A tale of brotherhood, sacrifice, redemption, all set in the world of wildfires, is something I’ve never seen on the big screen before,” he said. “The more I discovered about these men, their families, their relationships and where they came from, the more I was drawn into it.”
( Kosinski and Marsh were interviewed by e-mail. )
“It is a bit of a challenge,” di Bonaventura said. “You have no choice but to focus in on four or five people. But at the same time, every single person is represented.”
Two characters in particular drive the film — “the guy at the very top and the guy at the very bottom of the Granite Mountain Hotshots,” Kosinski said. At the top was Marsh. “He had the notion of creating the first municipal hotshot team and worked for years to achieve it.
“On the other end, we’ve got Brendan McDonough ( Miles Teller ), a kid who grew up in Prescott and found his life going down the wrong path. By offering Brendan a slot on the Hotshot team as a rookie, Marsh gave him an opportunity that no one else was willing to do. Though the story is told primarily through their eyes, we get to know something about all the guys on the crew.”
As for ongoing questions about what happened at the scene, di Bonaventura said the film will not explore them.
“We don’t feel that it is our job to determine what the record is,” he said. “Our job is to present who these people were and the dedication and sacrifices they made. … We don’t want to point a finger. We want to celebrate who they were.”
The tragedy will not be ignored, of course. It’s just not the focus of the film. Di Bonaventura compared it to “The Perfect Storm,” the 2000 film in which George Clooney and Mark Wahlberg play commercial fisherman on a doomed trip. “The event they lost their lives in in that movie is probably, I don’t know, I’m guessing it’s five minutes of that movie, a two-hour movie,” he said. “It’s very similar here.”
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As I said somewhere else… I’ve been watching the social and/or general media airwaves on this just to see if there is any hint about some of the ‘decisions’ the screenwriters have actually made with regards to ‘telling the story’.
Looks like Amanda Marsh has ‘slipped’ and provided at least one small hint.
From the bottom of the same article…
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As for Amanda Marsh, the film may not offer a sense of closure, but it may help others understand.
“I want Eric to come alive on the big screen,” she said. “His actions, his ultimate sacrifice in the line of duty, his returning to his crew even though he was safe, his laying down his life for his crew means everything in my daily living. Eric and the Granite Mountain Hotshots are amazing and they should be who we admire and strive to be more like in our daily lives.”
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Notice this ‘quote’ from Amanda Marsh ( about the movie )…
…his returning to his crew even though he was safe.”
I think it’s safe to say that Amanda Marsh has actually read the script, at this point, so I guess that is a ‘slip’ on her part about at least one ‘decision’ that the screenwriters HAVE made with regards to what happened that afternoon.
Looks they ARE going with what Brendan McDonough finally admitted to in his interview with Bill Gabbert at Wildfire today.
That Brendan DID ( at least ) hear Marsh say he was going to “scout ahead to the Boulder Springs Ranch” that day… which left Jesse Steed and the Crew just twiddling their thumbs at that critical time just waiting to hear back from Marsh before even STARTING to head south towards the box canyon.
That only leaves the question mark of… if they are going to portray Marsh as being ‘safe’ out ahead of Steed and the Crew that fateful day… and then DECIDING to ‘run back to them’ to commit suicide… are they going to touch on the fact that if Eric Marsh WAS that far ‘out ahead of them’ to have to ‘run back’… then he is the one who also failed his task as ‘Forward Lookout’ and just LET those men keep coming forward into a deathtrap?
Will they just have Eric so deep in the manzanita that even HE couldn’t possibly have seen what was coming, either?
Even if they are only going to spend the obligatory ‘5 minutes’ covering the actual tragedy… they ( the screenwriters ) are still going to have to at least have decided WHERE Marsh was ( how far out ahead )… and WHY he was not able to even WARN the men he was responsible for they were walking into that deathtrap.
I made it to Yarnell. Few blm fire trucks…highway is open..I want to head to potato patch area but for now no need because local owners shared they are doing dozer action out there. I’m tired. Checked on a few before coming to cabin… Gonna crash… My preoperative tasks are on hold due to obstruction so knock that out then can work on lymphatic area…good night…about the movie…if it helps them heal I am cool with it…I look back at the past few years and I learned there are inexperienced firefighters that make mistakes and I don’t say that thinking of the gmhs but this guy who I saw burn the other day so near to structures..angered me and saddened me that I am traumatized and I don’t know…when all my foias come in I will email the IM crew but I wish I could of seen a dozer the other day…I will catch up on reading the last hundred comments tomorrow
Something about the reports about the drinking situation. So many had reports of alcohol in the blood. Shit, I never found a miner that was worth a shit that did not drink and enjoy living outside the job. To be sure in all my mining days if there was one out of 50 it was a rare bird. I think fire fighting should be along the same lines. If you go down a 900 ft shaft not knowing if you will come back up alive then you are like a wild land fire fighter in some degree. You will do your best to enjoy that time that you hope you have. And if you want to enjoy friendship in a cantina–even a few ladies on the side then that is a gift of God you better take advantage of. If not you are pretty damn simple.
Now to me if those boys did not have a little blood alcohol level then they should have been talked to. There was likely a reason they were anal retentive.
When I was mining some of the fellows smoked weed–in fact many even when in the Army of 67-68. I did not fit too well there but did enjoy the wine since those boys liked wine with the weed. I don’t know if the wine speeds up the weed but I never cared if they smoked or not. I never met one that deserved to go to jail for smoking weed but the law thinks differently and so many are in jail for that stupid reason. Another money and power game over people.
The point is–if you find people risking all, then allow them to play hard–if you want to do their job then you deserve to play hard as well–to risk all gives you that right.
Oh yes, blokes, free America when you got assholes telling you to leave town you are in danger, when they don’t know what danger is. See we have authorities to help us not bull shit us–leave the cow boy be when he knows more than you.
But there are on occasion smart green horns. Like the one that asked a cow boy why he dropped a red hot horse shoe so quickly. The cow boy said because he looks at horse shoes real quick. People try to lord it over others and too many times it is when they need a lord themselves.
Amanda–Eric’s ultimate sacrifice was all those under him. That is a fact that you and Holly and a number of others do not want to admit to. But facts are in. He deserves no accolades, no honor–he worked for the system and went along unduly risking lives for structures and ultimately killed all those under him. He was indeed a nice guy but there is no demand for nice guys that do what he did and by his orders kill all those under his command. I understand that he did not intentionally do this–but he was intelligent enough to know what I knew–dropping off in that death bowl with a fire raging and a thunderstorm impending was an absolute gamble of 18 lives below him. I would not gamble myself nor would I gamble Joy’s life–a fact I saw, yet I am only a simple person of the mountains. Sad, but true–indeed though if truth is revealed will save the future person trying to understand safety concerning wild fires.
Fact is.
Steed was in charge of GMH on 6/30/2013.
All is not known of what happened. There needs to be less finger pointing.
All 19 are dead. The real atrocity is the cover up.
The truth of what happened is known. And the silence is not to protect the dead. Imo
To clarify my thoughts.
The truth of what happened at the yarnell hill fire is known. But the people who know are not telling.
For whatever reason
Reply to calvin post on June 11, 2016 at 6:37 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> The truth of what happened at the yarnell hill fire is known.
>> But the people who know are not telling.
Not yet, anyway.
Calvin,
You posted: “The truth of what happened at the yarnell hill fire is known. ”
Other than the 19 GMHS men dying, what is ‘known’ and ‘the truth of what happened?’
Calvin,
Which one is it?
You posted: “All is not known of what happened. There needs to be less finger pointing” on June 11, 2016 at 3:21 am.
And then you about 3 hours later you posted: “The truth of what happened at the yarnell hill fire is known” on June 11, 2013 at 6:37 AM.
Did you have an epiphany, which one is it? Is it known or not known?
I caught that too RTS-
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
June 11, 2016 at 7:32 pm
>> RTS wrote…
>>
>> Calvin,
>>
>> Which one is it?
>>
>> You posted: “All is not known of what happened.
>> There needs to be less finger pointing”
>> on June 11, 2016 at 3:21 am.
>>
>> And then you about 3 hours later you posted:
>> “The truth of what happened at the yarnell
>> hill fire is known” on June 11, 2013 at 6:37 AM.
>>
>> Did you have an epiphany, which one is it?
>> Is it known or not known?
Calvin can speak for himself… but once he reread his own comment(s) and posted his clarification… it seemed perfectly obvious what he had MEANT to say.
As in…
All is not GENERALLY known of what happened.
The truth of what happened at the yarnell hill fire is known… but the people who KNOW are not telling.
BTW: The last 8 words are the one you left out up above.
And if you read all the questions I have posted lately that were SUPPOSED to be fully and truthfully answered by Arizona Forestry, as part of a legal settlement regarding 12 multi-multi-multi MILLION dollar ‘wrongful death lawsuits’…
…you can add everyone who attended that February 5, 2016 settlement-mandated meeting to the list of people who really DO know what happened in Yarnell, in June of 2013.
( That’s in addition to ALL of those people who we can already see in the ADOSH interviews were either just playing that ‘ask me the right question and I *might* tell you the right answer’ game… and WITHHOLDING important information… or were simply flat-out LYING to the investigators. )
So I agree with calvin.
A LOT of people know the TRUTH about what happened.
They always have.
Exactly what wtk said. Sorry for the confusion thete
Hmm, Perfect Storm, cost 140M, grossed 182M (box office), 47% on the Tomatometer.
Oy vey!
In a way… it’s GOOD to just have the ‘suspense’ lifted.
This film is NOT going to be ‘about’ the Yarnell Hill Fire at all.
Now that we know the second highest-paid actor ( Miles Teller ) is playing ‘Brendan McDonough’ ( and not Jesse Steed, as previously thought )… that’s a pretty good indicator what’s up with the script.
You don’t just take your second-highest paid actor and stick him in the back of the Crew Carrier and only give him a few lines.
The ‘story’ probably WILL start with Brendan walking into ‘Station 7′ with his t-Shirt tucked into his underwear instead of his pants and he runs into Daniel McCarty, who tells Brendan “we’re all full up”… then Brendan is dejectedly walking down the hallway and out pops Eric Marsh saying “You lookin’ for work”?
“Yes sir!”, Brendan says. Then the whole ( actual ) scene where Marsh finds out Brendan is a convicted felon with no driver’s license, and he makes calls to Prescott City Personnel on-the-spot and makes sure it is okay to hire him anyway… because GM is SHORT warm bodies at that point ( 3 or 4 had just walked off the crew ).
Then we just go through many, many fires… and Miles Teller ( Brendan ) being ‘accepted’ onto the crew and whatnot… and much consternation about the long hours away from home, and near divorces, and yada yada… and then Kosinski just puts them in a place called Yarnell and kills them. Whamo.
Miles Teller ( Brendan ) ends up at the deployment site with the SAIT investigators… sifting through the ashes with his hands ( like Brendan actually did )… looks longingly into the distance… roll music… roll credits.
Predicted budget is currently in the 50-60 million dollar range.
They will no doubt ‘make the table’… and MIGHT even make some money with it.
Followup…
I said…
Now that we know the second highest-paid actor ( Miles Teller ) is playing ‘Brendan McDonough’ ( and not Jesse Steed, as previously thought )… that’s a pretty good indicator what’s up with the script. You don’t just take your second-highest paid actor and stick him in the back of the Crew Carrier and only give him a few lines.
In the same way… now that we have heard from top-level Movie Producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura ( the one who signs everyone paychecks… screenwriters included ) that the film is NOT about ‘Yarnell’ at all… I think it’s safe to say that you don’t hire someone like Jeff Bridges and then just use him to play some guy named ‘Gary Cordes’ who no one has really heard of, and who ( according to Bonaventura ) only has a chance of appearing in the last 5-10 minutes of the movie as Bonaventura just sticks GM in Yarnell and kills them off as quickly as possible.
I think that means that Jeff Bridges is now much more likely to be playing the part of ‘Darrell Willis’ than ‘Gary Cordes.’
Bonaventura isn’t even going to “go there” and try and explain anything about what really happened in Yarnell… so I doubt there will ever even be a representation of this guy named ‘Gary Cordes’ in the film.
But you would hard-pressed to tell the story of ‘Granite Mountain’ itself without having someone play the military-wannabee and preacher-wannabee ( who wasn’t even a Wildland Firefighter ) who became Prescott’s Wildland Division Chief when Eric Marsh got ‘passed over’ for that job.
Isn’t this the whole theme of this fiasco–paint the bosses that killed the men as heroes. Certainly the men that were subordinates to their risk taking bosses were heroes–but a lie is a lie and you can not change facts. This proves money and reputations are more important to these movie makers than human lives. When they could be telling the truth and changing the way risks are being taken for no good reason and lives being destroyed for that reason, I must say, they are no better than the Marshes and others that would cover up the truth to protect their reputations. When wild land fire fighters lives are at stake it is a big issue–nothing but the truth counts here.
I have been here listening to the copters and jets dumping big loads of water and retardant on around this area on the new Tenderfoot fire–seems like an apt name for it, and perhaps it should be the Tenderfoot #2 fire, since it was certainly tenderfeet working the first one that killed 19.
McDonut is no hero, nor is Marsh or Steed. Facts are that Donut lost his hero status by witholding evidence–something he was convinced to do by those above him. His error is minor next to Marsh and Steed. Then his superiors lied to him saying that it was the right thing to do–hide the truth to protect Marsh, Steed and the bosses over them. He bought it but never owned up to this day to that drastic lie. Yet he knows damn well witholding the truth was criminal and the worse thing to do considering the loved ones. Some were angered at him for this–others felt pity for him and must have known the pressure that he had from superiors that have kept him silent. He is now in the game so far he can’t come clean and even if he does, who can be sure of his testimony. The tragedy is that no changes are made for the saving of future lives by learning of the errors of a GMHS type attitude. And these film makers are not worthy if they do not consider that they are only playing along with what the flawed system.
We can only hope a few like Gary Olsen come out with books that will tell the truth as it came down and perhaps someone will actually produce a film that tells the true story of why 19 men were killed by careless action on June 30, 2013. That will bring hope to make changes that can and will save young lives that were needlessly sacrificed in the Yarnell disaster.
Do you want a real memorial to Marsh and Steed and their superiors that ran this fire? Tell the truth of how they fucked up killing 17 young wild land fire fighters. That will be proper and true. Make a training field for young firemen right in that bowl where the people of agendas want to hide the facts by keeping people out of the area–that will be what Marsh and Steed would want–learn by their errors and lack of experience and ability to keep their men alive.
Pointing fingers? How about just telling the truth–is there something we miss in doing that? Truth points no fingers–it only expresses what is.
Reply to Charlie post on June 10, 2016 at 10:24 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Truth points no fingers–it only expresses what is.
Well said.
For Movie Producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura himself to say…
“We don’t feel that it is our job to determine what the record is. Our job is to present who these people were and the dedication and sacrifices they made. We don’t want to point a finger.”
…that means he is PERFECTLY AWARE of the amount of ‘controversy’ that still remains regarding what ACTUALLY happened that day.
But ‘controversy’ isn’t going to make him money.
He thinks he can ‘make money’ by simply AVOIDING all that… and just do a movie that is no more than just the “get to know the guys that died” stuff that has ALREADY been published in THREE different books now.
Well…Sonny, I am still trying to work on the book I MAY finish,”The Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters”, but…it is very discouraging when reading what WTKTT has posted above about the movie.
That and the fact that the Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters now even has an OFFICE paid for by donations to promote Marsh as the HERO of the YHF.
There seems to be a very small number of people who are interested in the truth. On the other hand…what else important do I have to do?
Especially now that I only operate my Jeeps, ATV and UTV at least 5 MPH UNDER the posted speed limit or the speed that is prudent and safe for the existing road or trail conditions. But thanks for the shout out!
Well I know you don’t keep your jeep under 5–likely over 5, probably 10. There are a few here in overdrive and you are at the top of the list. I have gotten much from your posts–Your example of bold truth is the only way. You are an inspiration and give an example for people to stand up instead of hiding in the shadows.
If young men like Donut had been under your command he would have laid what he knows out from the start. But then also had you been in command, there would not have been the catastrophe to start with. I can say this in earnest after hiking with so many long experienced wild land fire fighting bosses as you are–they go there and all say the same thing–never a chance they would have allowed their men to go down into that death trap.
Even Norb, the last man whom I hiked when queried said “Sonny, no way would I have let my crew go down there.” He was one among at least 50 that say that.
Gary, your book is going to be a winner because it will give the bare details as they are, sparing no one–and exposing the cover up as we have had to deal with so long. It will be a breath of fresh air over the stale baloney we have witnessed to this date–we want to know the facts–not the stale baloney and facades we have had presented by those that prefer to protect reputations over wild land fire fighter safety and lives.
Books, Films and intelligence of fires. I am amused. — The decisions of local fire departments and their take on how to do things concerning lightening strikes, etc. The GMHS crew and their decision to follow a leader that killed them all.
I took a look at this Tenderfoot fire where it had already burned off the east side of the area across 89 –all brush burned off and one structure burning–winds driving smoke and fire to the east with over a mile burned off between Yarnell and the fire edge. Shit they were wanting me to leave–no clouds in the sky–no weather reports of thunder storms. And they have the audacity to think I would not rely on my judgement over theirs? They killed their own men off a spot I would not allow myself to go down and had the foresight to return to drag Joy away from going down into a trap. I would be the wrong guy to try to buffalo concerning a wild land fire. I have been educated by too many real wild land fire fighting bosses that knew how to keep their men alive beside my own common sense–I don’t go along with bull shit too well. Stay in the black boys–it ain’t healthy to listen to a boss that would put you in a trap or to tell you to leave your home when there is no reason except to practice the drill of evacuation.
Oh yes, Gary, I was on my Harley looking over the Tenderfoot situation, but I didn’t run over any drift wood. Still I know the feeling–I once challenged a big mesquite patch with my dirt bike when I missed a curve doing about 45. The mesquite patch won since I looked like I had been in a fight with a live tiger. I think your Norwegian Gods must be keeping tabs on you.
OMG…thank you for the kind thought, but all of my Pagan Gods are of Swedish descent. Even us Nordic people are very tribal. And besides…the Swedes are and always have been the Big Dogs among their neighbors, the Danes, the Norwegians and the Finns. After all…my people do make Ikea furniture.
Do you know that most western scholars believe that Russia was named after the Rus’ or “those who row” and who are “from over the sea”? And that the Rus’ are thought to be Varangians (Vikings) of Nordic descent.
So…my ancestors did not just spread their influence down where your people came from and along the coast of France, they also went up the rivers far to the east. Hell bells…you and I might even be related from way, way, way back. Sorry bout that.
My apologies–It was Marti the Norwegian. I got a bone to pick with the Swedes now–at least the Husquevarna boys. They turned their saws over to the Chinese and now they are not worth shit. I cut for ten years with three Husky saws and kept bread on my table and cash in my pocket–nothing better than the pride those Swedes put in their saws–even a west German Still was second. Now I paid 950 for junk thinking I had a real Swede saw. Trust me, if you have been a logger, stay away from a 576 HP–you waste your money.
Isn’t this the new and better world?
Yes…I was always a Husky man myself. There are only three kinds of people in this world, the Stihl people, the Husky people and everybody else.
I do remember reading your earlier posts about the new Husky saws…the New World Order really sucks!
Yes I know the Vikings did a number on the Irish for a time. Probably where our Irish tempers came from–I do know some got tired of potatoes and left Ireland after a while.
So I know old Thor is taking care of you Swedes. A good thing, I think–not a god to challenge for sure.
Reply to Charlie post on June 11, 2016 at 1:14 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Yes I know the Vikings did a number on the Irish
>> for a time. Probably where our Irish tempers came
>> from–I do know some got tired of potatoes and
>> left Ireland after a while.
First recorded Viking raid in Ireland was 795 AD.
The Irish Chieftains kept kicking their asses out ( but they kept coming back ) for the next 2 centuries.
The final ‘kick out’ was the Battle of Clontarf, on Good Friday, in 1014 AD.
Irish King Brian Boru and his Chieftain armies absolutely slaughtered what remained of the Danes / Vikings.
They tried to swim to their ships at the end of the day and the Irish swam after them and were killing them in the water.
However… one of the defeated commanders who had run away from the battlefield and hid in the woods ( Brodir of Man ) stumbled across King Brian Boru’s tent near the end of the battle, and snuck inside the tent and killed him. Brodir cut Boru’s head off. Brodir ran from the tent brandishing the severed head, screaming for all to hear, “Now let every man know, that it is Brodir of Man who has slain Brian Boru!”
A nasty Irish dude named “Wolf the Quarrelsome” saw this… and chased Brodir down as he tried to run away with the head.
Wolf cut Brodir’s abdomen open, pulled out some of his intestines, then tied them to a nearby tree… and then he and the other Irish fighters made Brodin walk around the tree and pull his own intestines out.
The Vikings never came back to Ireland.
King Brian Boru is supposedly the one who brought the ‘Harp’ from Scotland and was so fond of its music it became, from then on, an essential part of Irish music.
Next time you have a can or a bottle of Guiness… look closely at the label. You will see a right-facing Celtic harp. It was registered by Guiness as their trademark in 1862, and is known as “Brian Boru’s harp.”
Tenderfoot Fire
Summary: At 6:00 a.m. Incident Commander Alan Sinclair’s Type 2 Southwest Area Incident Management Team took over responsibility for managing the Tenderfoot Fire. The fire is currently estimated at 3,300 acres. This reduction in acres is due to improved infrared mapping technology which is one of the tools a Type 2 Incident Management Team is able to use to better define the perimeter and size of a fire. Incident commander Alan Sinclair praised the efforts of the initial attack personnel in protecting the Community of Yarnell during the initial stages of the fire.
The fire is currently moving away from the Community of Yarnell in a northeasterly direction, an area where very few structures are present. This area is very rugged in character with very little access. Fire managers will be looking for opportunities to the northeast of the current fire area where fire fighters can safely engage and suppress the fire south of Wagoner Road. There are currently no immediate threats to structures. Over the last few years fuel reduction projects were completed on the east and north sides of the Community of Yarnell. Fire Chief Ben Palm stated that these fuel breaks significantly reduced the fire intensity of the Tenderfoot Fire as it approached the community, allowing firefighters to attack the fire and greatly reduce property loss. The fuel breaks were the result of a partnership between the Community and Arizona State Forestry and the Bureau of Land Management. This afternoon the Yavapai Sheriff’s Office announced the opening of State Highway 89 at 4:00 p.m. today. That portion of Yarnell west of Highway 89A will also be open to evacuees. Residents east of the highway will remain in mandatory evacuation status until the threat of fire is no longer significant. Wagoner Road is closed east of Highway 89 due to fire threat. Additionally, a precautionary alert is still in effect for homeowners on the west side of highway 89 in Peeples Valley should circumstances require they be ready to evacuate. Travelers over Highway 89 should be aware of traffic congestion in the vicinity of Model Creek School and Hays Road north of Yarnell due to fire generated traffic. Reduced speed is recommended in this area.
Resources Assigned:
6 Hotshot crews, 2 Type 2 initial attack crews 22 Engines 2 light, 3 heavy helicopter 2 air attack fixed wing aircraft platforms 3 bulldozers various overhead and support personnel
Yavapai Sheriff’s Office Announced The Opening of State Highway 89
Announcement – 1:14 hrs. ago
Newbies
I hiked with Alan Sinclair
This has to be a hard mission for him
Fighting a fire where his best friend died
Eric Marsh was his long time best friend
I got in a lil after 5 and was told no to going up and I walked in door and laid on couch and just awoke but tired enough I can crash. I am having hard time reaching Sonny because the steering is too much for me…may just sleep a couple… Than head up…I had planned to take back way to interview some on Stanton area to see their accounts
Sinclair gave a short presser earlier today. He seems like a level-headed, serious guy. According to ROSS the whole team save JC Yowell (who is on the Reservoir fire) and one or two others are assigned to Tenderfoot.
He thanked locals for clearing brush on north and east sides of Yarnell. I hope other areas in WUI are paying attention.
This fire is handled very differently from YHF. Sinclair and others will honor Marsh and the 19 by keeping all safe.
Reply to Muzzy post on June 10, 2016 at 7:20 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> According to ROSS the whole team save JC Yowell (who is on the
>> Reservoir fire) and one or two others are assigned to Tenderfoot.
Do you mean KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… the same “Slow down, skippy!” guy from the Aaron Hulburd videos and fellow Prescott National Forest employee along with Hulburd?
You’re right, KC (they don’t list monikers) 😉
http://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dispatch_logistics/overhead/imt/Rosters/SWA_ROSTERS_Type_2_Team_3.pdf
TEAM – IMT – T2 – TEAM 3 – IC = ALAN SINCLAIR
Some ‘original’ Yarnell Hill Fire alums showing up…
AOBD = Dan Sullivan
The mysterious ‘Dan Sullivan’ who had no resource order for Yanell but was there all day helping Brad Zeitler with Air Operations… and ends up identified by Bryan Smith as the one who actually saved him and his cousin Perl Moore in Glen Ilah ( and NOT Gary Cordes… as AZCENTRAL reported ).
DIVS = Dan Philbin
BLM guy who was one of Roy Hall’s off-the-radar DIVS hires in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013. Jumped in and started ‘freelancing’, anyway, and ended up near Shrine Road at the time of the deployment.
Type 2 OSC(t) Trainee – Aaron Hulburd.
Prescott National Forest employee. Shot all those videos in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
WTKTT said,”AOBD = Dan Sullivan
The mysterious ‘Dan Sullivan’ who had no resource order for Yanell but was there all day helping Brad Zeitler with Air Operations… and ends up identified by Bryan Smith as the one who actually saved him and his cousin Perl Moore in Glen Ilah ( and NOT Gary Cordes… as AZCENTRAL reported ).”
Ruh roh! Does that mean Gary has to give back his golden ax?
Correction for above.
There actually was a ‘Resource Order’ placed for this mysterious Dan Sullivan guy.
It’s order number O-30 in the “J-Resource Orders.pdf” file that is part of the public evidence record.
Someone ordered him up as an ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ) at 9:34 AM on Sunday, 6/30/13.
Other testimony places him in Yarnell by about 11:30 AM, and the one trying to find a better staging area for the Helicopters than what was already in use.
Gary Cordes is the one who has absolutely NO ‘Resource Order’ showing up anywhere in the official documentation for the Yarnell Hill Fire.
I suppose I am pretty simple-all I see is another bullshit deal–millions again spent on a fire that needed to happen–Manzanita, a drought and these fires are natures way of taking care of too much brush– So what the hell–if you want to live in a dangerous area then clear out the brush around your house and have one made of rock with a tin roof– Someone makes millions persuading the public that they are doing some great job dropping tons of agent orange retardant. It is a game and a big one–no chance of breaking through the bull shit with money that big and state representatives and politicians in on the take. They own the system–change it? You better beg.
The Tenderfoot fire might be caused by someone as is now reported. Our first reports were that it was a short in a microwave tower. Either way it was similar to the previous Yarnell Hill Fire. Once allowed to gain ground these local manzanita fires release the energy of a Hiroshima type Atom bomb every 15 minutes. Photos I have and Joy has show that–but that is nature taking care of business. It is not worth risking young lives in these cases–absolutely take all precautions of safety in these fires. This is not my advice but from professionals who from a University in Washington that specializes in the study of wild fires. Professors Wooten and Morrison have written scientific papers on the manzanita wild fire of Yarnell telling us that these facts. It signifies how ignorant it is to risk lives against a manzanita fire once it has gone ballistic. So citizen Sonny stands here scratching his head wondering why the fire Gods, as Gary dubs them, would even imagine that to order their men into dangerous situations to try to stop Atom Bombs would make sense to anyone of half a brain.
If I consult Dr. Ted Putnam he would tell me plenty of human factors cause these deaths. If you would ask me as a citizen, uninformed and ignorant of the fine points of wild land fire fighting, I would say a bunch of idiots run the whole fucking show. I am of course in danger of being mauled by a few Pulaskis–but before you do, the fellows that I have hiked and met are above the average intelligence for sure. So I am bum fuzzled to understand how could 19 die when I as a common person of life saw that situation shortly before they died and did agree with the advice a cowboy gave them–do not get down into that manzanita with a fire near by. But then comes the human factor that Dr. Ted talks about. This man has clout–they do not even want him hiking up there–but too late, we did hike him so he could get a first hand look at the problem. As a 15 year smoke jumper and doctorate credentials, experiences in investigating fire related deaths, he is a person of high credibility–someone that not only has been there once, but many times. And amazingly he agrees with the cow boy–do not go down hill and get tangled in the brush–simple but amazing truth that will keep you and your men alive. So the human factors of why would someone do something so blatantly risky and against what all sensibilities say is a dangerous, even suicidal mission to protect structures, as Willis points out–that is what they do. Fuck, Shit –the bosses killed 17 young men with their fucked up decisions. Human factors indeed–in my way of thinking Idiots running the show. Do not count on Sonny listening to bull shit.
Reply to Charlie post on June 10, 2016 at 12:08 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I have enjoyed reading questions asked by WTKTT.
Charlie… just to be CLEAR… the ‘lists of questions’ I have been posting lately are NOT MINE ( although they do closely resemble questions that have been raised by not just me, but MANY on this forum, since day one ).
The questions I have been posting lately come DIRECTLY from ‘Family Members’ of the 19 men who were burned to death in that chaotic Arizona Forestry workplace on June 30, 2013.
They are the questions the wives and mothers and fathers of the men who perished still want answers to.
I want anyone who might be following this forum but has been reluctant to say what they know and have been hiding behind some kind of misconception about ‘protecting the family members’ to READ those QUESTIONS.
THOSE are the QUESTIONS that even the ‘family members’ themselves want answered.
MOST of the Family Members still want the TRUTH.
Only a small subset are the ones who just want all the talk to stop and everyone to just be content to wave flags, and move along.
Thanks for making that clear WTKTT. You indeed are one of the heroes of this Yarnell tragedy. I am honored to know you by your posts–You represent the citizen–the people that many do not want represented. But you also represent the wild land fire fighter and want justice for the deceased and for the future young men aspiring to that profession. Your work will help to save many lives–only the truth will do that.
Indeed those among the loved ones deserve the truth. Dr. Ted Putnam tells me it is about 50/50 on that account–some do not care. I would not have believed that except Ted is an acclaimed Psychologist and smoke jumper to boot. Thank you for your good work–WTKTT — your Irish star shines brightly.
That would be nice if people could be honest and come out of the closet so to speak. I once had a University professor say if you wore womens clothing to class you would get an upgrade of one letter in your grade. I am not a cross dresser and not a homo sexual and was confident I had an A anyway so I was not about to play the role of a woman to upgrade. So I got my A dropped to a B. The world has a few shit heads and he was one to do that to people.
DISQUIS and officials are removing my DIRECTION to the world on video comment area to come here for the account/photos of tenderfoot fire chapter xxii
off to my appt.
Joy is another hero–always looking out for the truth here. I know her by years of living the wild life of the woods–she is the new Pioneer and did live the life of one despite her many infirmities May the Irish gods of old be beside her.. .
Reply to cl post on June 8, 2016 at 4:53 pm
>> cl said…
>>
>> The things he ( Pete Masiel ) can do and the certificates he has no meaning
>> as to the type of person he was and the way he treated his employees
>> Pete simply liked you or hated you there was no in between.
Thank you for continuing to comment.
Since you were, in fact, working at the Arizona Forestry Dispatch Center ( ADC ) in Deer Valley during the Yarnell Hill Fire… I’d like to ask you another question.
ADC Director Norval Tyler testified to ADOSH that as of 10:20 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013… the Arizona Forestry Dispatch Center ( ADC ) in Deer Valley officially stopped ‘recording’ radio transmissions taking place at the Yarnell Fire… since that is the moment that Roy Hall’s Type 2 short command took local control of the Yarnell Fire.
But Norval Tyler also added the caveat… “Except for aircraft”.
Does that mean that even for the rest of Sunday, June 30, 2013, the Arizona Forestry Dispatch Center WAS recording ‘Airplane radio channel conversations’?
If so… do you know if those recordings would have included BOTH the ‘Air-To-Air’ radio channel communications AND the ‘Air-To Ground’ radio channel communications?
**
** MORE ON THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN FAMILY MEMBER ‘QUESTIONS’…
**
** NOTES ON ‘ISSUES TO DISCUSS’ WITH OPS2 ‘PAUL MUSSER’
Continuing on… here is the ‘Issues’ breakout document that someone at Arizona Forestry assembled for OPS2 ‘Paul Musser’
NOTE: Since it appears these ‘issues’ documents were being prepared just for individuals that Joy Hernbrode already KNEW would actually be PRESENT at the Feburary 5, 2016 settlement-mandated GM Family members ‘Question and Answer Day’… there is no corresponding document(s) for people like Gary Cordes and Tony Sciacca.
Both Gary Cordes and Tony Sciacca REFUSED to attend this GM Family members ‘Question and Answer Day’… even though the Granite Mountain Family members had already specifically said they wanted BOTH of them to be there to help answer their questions.
As below… I will post OPS1 Paul Musser’s ‘Issues’ document as the next ‘Reply’ to this message… and I think it will fit in just one ‘Reply’…
** Issues to Discuss with Paul Musser
1542 ARUE audio capture:
1542 Panebaker Video from SAIT Investigation records:
Photos and Videos folder: Aerial retardant study. V idea:
20130630-15423 -2_fire_behavior_EP
Time stamp on the video is the END time.
The conversation starts immediately, and the tape is 24
seconds long, so the conversation begins about 1542.
——————————————————————————
Eric Marsh: “…towards the structures, ah”
Retardant Study Techs: “Burning over the retardant line”
Reply: “uh huh”
Eric Marsh: ” Over and uh, into Yarnell”
Musser: “Division Alpha, Operations Musser”
Eric Marsh: “Thank you”
Retardant Study Tech: “Where do we document that at?”
Retardant Study Tech: “Somewhere in the notes”
——————————————————————————-
** From the ARS logs-this conversation about fire burning over the retardant line was between Div A and AA? (with an uncertain question mark next to Air Attack).
Voice ID for Eric Marsh: has been VERIFIED by Amanda Marsh, his wife.
Do you recall hearing this conversation between Marsh and someone, possibly AA?
YOU contacted Marsh AS he was having this conversation.
For Marsh to say “toward the structures, over and into Yarnell” in the same conversation he reports that the fire burned across the retardant line, what does this mean to you? Do you recall this timeframe when fire burned across retardant line? It was reported to SWCC and tweeted out as YHF status event. It was clearly an important event.
Are you aware that Brendan McDonough reports that Marsh had set trigger points for the crew? Do you know what those triggers were?
Do you know if Marsh heard Cordes trigger points were met to evacuate Yarnell @1600? Do you know if Marsh heard Cordes trigger point was met to pull firefighters off the line with the advice “you have an hour”? (also in 1600 timeframe).
Is this 1542 timeframe when you asked Marsh if GM could spare resources to come down and help in Yarnell, help “prep some more stuff’? (Abel reports you to say that GM were to “help prep some more stuff’). Were you asking to try and get help for Gary Cordes and his structure group? What was the exact plan for GM if they were to come down? Please clarify this. Were there plans to construct additional dozer line and burn out? Point protection? What was the mission and reason for GM to come down?
Please clarify this request you made to Marsh. It was never mentioned in SAIR. It is only mentioned in ADOSH. Did you tell SALT investigators about your request to GM to come down and help?
Please confirm or correct the following paraphrase of your request to Marsh: Official reports state that you asked if GM was available and that Marsh replied that the crew was committed to the ridge. Marsh then requested that you inquire with Blue Ridge as to their availability to help. Cordes then replied that Blue Ridge was committed to him already. It seems odd that this conversation would have ended here without further discussion. Do you recall if there was more to this conversation after Cordes said that BR was already committed to him?
During the timeframe when you spoke to Marsh about helping in Yarnell, photo evidence shows that some of the GM crew was in process of moving and making their way along and off of their handline. Could your conversation with Marsh have reflected this, did he tell you that the crew was in process making their way back along the handline, hence the conclusion that they were committed to the ridge? Did Marsh give you a timeframe for how long the crew was committed up there? Did he tell you he would bring the crew down at a certain point in the future, after certain things happened first?
Did you receive the 1526 weather update and the “within a half hour” arrival prediction?
What did this mean to you?
How did you react to this?
Why would you ask GM to come down at nearly the same time this weather event was predicted to arrive?
* The 4:13 PM radio exchange with Eric Marsh
Did you hear someone ask Marsh @1413: “What’s your status right now?”
Did you hear Marsh reply that Granite was “making their way down their escape route from this morning”? Did “escape route from this morning” get translated into “predetermined escape route”, which is used by yourself and others to describe a conversation you overheard between Marsh and someone?
Did you meet with Tony Sciacca shortly after 1600 along Hwy 89 south toward Yarnell?
What did you discuss with him in that meeting?
Did you and Tony discuss the location and activities of GMIHC?
Did you hear Tony talk to DIVA on the radio? Elaborate.
* The Yarnell-Gamble VIDEO ( Presumably shot by Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble )
Did you hear someone urge Marsh to have the crew “go a little faster” @1627 timeframe?
Do you know why someone would be urging GM to hurry up, 15 minutes before they were trapped and killed?
It has been verified that this conversation did not occur between Blue Ridge and Marsh, it was someone other than a BR hotshot.
Your request / inquiry to GMIHC to relocate and help in Yarnell: Was this a Planning OPS scope of duty and responsibility? Did you coordinate this inquiry with Field OPS Abel? Is it possible that OPS roles were overlapped, and due to chaos of extreme fire behavior, one OPS Chief did not realize what the other was doing until later?
Numerous references to Cordes trigger points indicate that they were breached much sooner than expected and many were taken by surprise by unanticipated fire behavior. “Fire outperformed our expectations”.
Question for all: What should you or could you have reasonably expected to happen given the 1526 weather update: winds E-NE 25-35 mph possibly as high as 50 mph, by 4 o’clock? Given the fuel conditions, the exclusion of fire from the area, the weather data, the amount of fire already on the ground, etc. What did you think this type of outflow boundary weather event would do to a decadent chaparral fire? Do we have a problem with the following Fire Orders?:
1. Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
What happens when we discount NWS predictions? How can this interpretation process be safer and more reliable?
2. Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
What happens when current fire behavior is used to predict expected fire behavior, without factoring in NWS radar-tracked and time-predicted weather events? Should trigger points be reevaluated when a dire weather update is issued? Should fireline resources be pulled off to safety staging areas or ordered into safety zones when dire weather updates are issued with narrow time stamps?
Eric Marsh had a ROS and a time and distance problem in the end. Why? How many of the issues discussed above can be factored into Marsh’s miscalculation? How many others on the YHF were caught off guard by a “predicted” weather event? Why?
END OF ‘ISSUES / QUESTIONS’ FOR OPS2 ‘PAUL MUSSER’
Very good questions here. It would be nice to see the answers someday.
RTS–We aren’t holding our breath–seems the fellows that count are not much interested in the truth–maybe they say we can’t handle it. But maybe they can’t.
**
** MORE ON THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN FAMILY MEMBER ‘QUESTIONS’…
**
** NOTES ON ‘ISSUES TO DISCUSS’ WITH FBAN ‘BYRON KIMBALL’
Continuing on… here is the ‘Issues’ breakout document that someone at Arizona Forestry assembled for FBAN Byron Kimball.
NOTE: It is ‘assumed’ that Arizona Forestry Deputy Director was the one coming up with the ‘Issue breakout’ documents targeted at individuals who she now knew WOULD be present at the February 5, 2016 Granite Mountain Family Members’ settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day. Joy Hernbrode was definitely the one in charge of ‘receiving’ and ‘gathering’ all the written questions from the family members prior to the meeting.
I’ll post the ‘Issues’ document targeted for FBAN Byron Kimball as the next ‘Reply’… and I believe it will all fit into one single ‘Reply’…
NOTE in the following document that EVERYONE was being ‘scheduled’ to be asked about BOTH the 4:13 direct radio communication with Eric Marsh AND the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video.
We also see in the following list of questions that the Family Members themselves had apparently been paying close attention to this forum and they, also, KNEW that it was very important to identify WHICH VEHICLE everyone was driving… because of the plethura of PHOTOGRAPHS that are sitting in evidence from the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Byron Kimball was to be SPECIFICALLY asked to VERIFY which vehicle he was driving that day.
** Issues to Discuss with Byron Kimball
From David Blanchard notes SAIT pg 92 G-FireBehaviorAndWeather-no redactions.pdf
Third Person Narrative for Calls made on Sunday, June 30 (updated by David B. July 5)
At 2105 UTC (2:05 p.m.) The FGZ meteorologist contacted Yarnell Fire (Byron Kimball) about new convection (observed on the higher elevation 1.3deg and 1.8deg scans at 20:59 and 21:03 UTC) developing near and to the east of the fire. The meteorologist also notified him of the strong and shifting winds when the main outflow arrives. The meteorologist did not recollect Byron’s response other than he acknowledged the information.
At 2230 UTC (3:30 p.m.) The same FGZ meteorologist made another call to the dispatch at the Yarnell Fire (Byron Kimball) for the imminent threat of outflow winds, originating from the line of storms moving toward the area from the northeast. The meteorologist indicated winds would shift to the Northeast at 25-45 mph — with the possibility of some rain. Byron acknowledged the NE winds could push the fire back from the northern fire lines and save the structures to the north, and also indicated that they were already seeing a wind shift to Easterly and that the fire might be responding. There was no further elaboration on this point.
Daryl Onton Yarnell Hill Notes:
Midafternoon, probably around 2:30-3:00 p.m., the exact time on this call would be 1526.
David calls back to Yarnell Hill Fire, says he expects wind shift will be within 10 to 15 minutes. Here the wind shift is imminent. In the relay of weather bulletin from Kimball to Abel in 1529 Retardant study audio, the time prediction is relayed as “within a half hour”.
On radar, there is no longer an obvious outflow boundary signature at this point. I hear David repeat back that the contact at Yarnell Hill Fire says the wind shift has already arrived.
** QUESTIONS ( for Byron Kimball )
Did you assume that the wind shift you were seeing @1530 during your conversation with Blanchard that this wind shift was the actual one he was predicting? Did you or did you not realize that the wind shift predicted was incoming, had not arrived yet and what you were seeing was only the beginning of the shift? Many references from those on YHF indicate that a notable wind shift occurred at 1600 and accelerated by 1630, including Air Attack. This would indicate that the NWS update with 1600 timeframe was overall very accurate.
Who assumed the wind shift had already arrived by 3:30?
Was there a problem with awareness and interpretation of the arrival time of the outflow boundary?
Did you speak to Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed anytime on June 30, while they were in the field?
From your interview with ADOSH:
————————————————————————
1371 A: …l had taken one drive down into Glen Ilah at one point in time earlier in the
1372 day. Ah, they had made a mention oh we’ve got tractor working back there.
1373 And we put some – some retardant back across that south corner to kind a pin
1374 that corner down. Um, one point in time when they pushed the button on the
1375 evacuations they had said that ah, there had been a report of some increased
1376 activity. Um, I want back in there, didn’t see anything that really caught my
1377 eye as being significant to be, but then I also knew that I was not – but where I
1378 was down in…
1380 01: Uh-huh.
1382 A: …Glen Ilah I was – I very well could not be seen – necessarily seeing what
1383 they were seeing…
1385 01: Right.
1387 A: …um, from up on the hill above it or any of that.
1389 Ql: Mm-hm.
1391 A: I just knew that as I drove back into Glen Ilah I’m thinking I hope I don’t have
1392 to be involved in this…
————————————————————————
Lines 1374-1387 (underlined) indicate you took a second trip into Glen Ilah around the 1600 timeframe. Please elaborate on this second trip into Glen Ilah.
Who reported on increased activity? What did you mean by you couldn’t “see what they were seeing from up on the hill above it”? Where did you go? What did you do? Did you at any time go into the Helms (Boulder Springs Ranch)?
Did you see or talk with anyone at the Helms? Did you talk with anyone via radio? If so who?
What VEHICLE were you driving on June 30?
Please give a GOOD description of the VEHICLE you drove on June 30.
Discuss all radio conversations you heard between Marsh or Steed and anyone else on the fire, including yourself.
** The 4:13 PM radio exchange with Eric Marsh
Did you hear someone ask DIVA @1613 “What’s your status right now”?
Did you hear Marsh report that Granite was making their way down their escape route?
If so elaborate.
** The Yarnell-Gamble VIDEO ( presumably shot by Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble )
Did you hear someone tell DIVA @1627 “Appreciate it if you could go a little faster, but you’re the supervisor”?
If so, elaborate.
END OF ISSUES TO DISCUSS WITH FBAN ‘BYRON KIMBALL’
Followup ( my own comments )…
Notice ABOVE in that one page of ‘Issues/Questions’ targeted for Byron Kimball that they family members / attorneys DID want specific clarification from Kimball on this question…
Did you ( Byron Kimball ) speak to Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed anytime on June 30, while they were in the field?
And then some of Byron Kimball’s ADOSH testimony is included.
That ADOSH testimony from Kimball has actually always suggested that Byron Kimball did, himself, have some kind of DIRECT radio communication(s) with either Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed.
The CLARIFICATION being sought was whether or not what Byron Kimball told ADOSH was the result of DIRECT radio conversations with Marsh and/or Steed… or whether what he was saying there in his testimony was just a summary of things he had HEARD on the radio while Marsh and/or Steed were talking to OTHER people ( Who? ).
**
** MORE ON THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN FAMILY MEMBER ‘QUESTIONS’…
**
** NOTES ON ‘ISSUES TO DISCUSS’ WITH TOD ABEL
Continuing the ‘List of Questions’ that were prepared in advance of the settlement-mandated Granite Mountain Family members ‘Question and Answer’ day.
Someone at Arizona Forestry ( most likely Deputy Director Joy Hernbrode ) took all the questions being submitted by GM family members in advance of the Q/A meeting and then ‘organized’ them into additional ‘breakouts’ that seemed to represent questions best answered by individuals who worked the Yarnell Fire who were also known to be going to attend the Q/A day itself.
Notably… there are ‘Issue Sheets’ that were broken out from the Master List of
Family Member questions for OPS1 Todd Abel, OPS2 Paul Musser, and FBAN Byron Kimball.
We’ll start with the ‘issues’ list for OPS1 Todd Abel.
PLEASE NOTE that these same ‘Issue Lists’ being made for people like Todd Abel and Paul Musser and Byron Kimball also seemed to contain someone ( Hernbrode? ) also typing in “suggested responses” or some kind of “reminders” about what Todd Abel had already said and how to keep his ‘responses’ in-line with his own existing testimony.
In the original documents… these “suggested responses” were appearing in both RED TYPE and/or BOLDFACE TYPE.
In the reprint below, all these sections that were in RED TYPE or BOLDFACE TYPE in the original will now be appearing in italics instead.
Here is just ONE EXAMPLE of what I am talking about in these ‘documents’.
A series of QUESTIONS appear, obviously targeted at OPS1 Todd Abel, and then a bunch of RED TYPE appears in the original apparently ‘suggesting’ to Todd Abel what his ‘response’ should be to these questions…
—————————————————————————–
** It seems that this update was the precursor of the weather event to come, the first notification, and the prediction to arrive within 1-2 hours (or between 3 and 4 pm). This was a heads up on the formation and movement of the outflow boundary. How was this first update treated? What was the discussion about this as being unremarkable? Shouldn’t it have been more of a heads up?
You recall that between 1405 and 1526, the fire behavior was increasing, but there were no
dramatic problems.
—————————————————————————–
Whoever typed that last sentence into the document, at that point, was apprently speaking directly to Todd Abel himself ( as the targeted ‘reader’ of the document ) and ‘reminding’ him of what he is supposed to ‘recall’ when answering the questions.
The actual DOCUMENT with the ‘Issues for Todd Abel’ begins in the next
‘Reply’… and might take a few separate ‘Replies’ to complete…
** Issues to Discuss With Todd Abel – Page 1 ( of 2 pages )
** Clarify conversations with Eric Marsh.
One via cellphone 1:11 pm about Rance Marquez. What else was discussed during this phone call?
The SAIT is very difficult to follow. Please clarify your conversations with Marsh, the timeframes and topics of discussion.
Caldwell video : Marsh says “I’m trying to work my way off the top” What did you think this meant?
You said: “I’ll get air support down there ASAP”. What did you mean by this? That you would get them air support in the form of retardant or water drops? Or that you would send air support down there to check on the crew? Clarify the check on the crew. WHY did you want air support to check on the crew? For what purpose? What was air support supposed to see or inform the crew on, that they could not do for themselves? After air support checked on the crew, what did air support come back and tell you? What was the status of GM according to air support?
Are you aware of which plane checked on GM and why? Are you aware of the conversation Marsh had with AA when AA checked on them?
** RE: The Yarnell-Gamble VIDEO
Did you hear someone urge Marsh to have the crew “go a little faster” @1627 timeframe?
Do you know why someone would be urging GM to hurry up, 15 minutes before they were trapped and killed?
It has been verified that this conversation did not occur between Blue Ridge and Marsh, it was someone other than a BR hotshot.
** The 4:13 PM radio exchange with Eric Marsh
Did you hear someone ask Marsh @1413: “What’s your status right now?”
Did you hear Marsh reply that Granite was “making their way down their escape route from this morning”? Did “escape route from this morning” get translated into “predetermined escape route”, which is used by yourself and others to describe a conversation you overheard between Marsh and someone?
NOTE: The next paragraph in the orginal document is one of those that was in RED TYPE instead of BLACK… and appears to be someone ( Joy Hernbrode? ) at Arizona Forestry supplying Todd Abel with a ‘suggested response’…
Sometime around 1405, there was a weather update obtained by Kimball. We understand Kimball would then communicate the weather updates on the Command and Tactical channels. You recall the 1405 weather report was unremarkable.
If Kimball communicated weather updates on command and tac, whose responsibility was it to inform firefighters on the ground and get division call back/confirmation in return? Kimball or Abel?
** What was it about the 1405 weather report that was considered “unremarkable?” The NWS reports that the 1405 WX updated stated:
NOTE: The next paragraph in the orginal document is one of those that was in BOLDFACE TYPE instead of normal BLACK… and appears to be someone ( Joy Hernbrode? ) at Arizona Forestry supplying Todd Abel with a ‘suggested response’…
The first call was made just after 2 pm 12:05 on his chart]. They were called regarding new convection that was developing near and to the east of the fire associated with that outflow boundary. And they were alerted, expect strong and shifting winds when the main outflow were to arrive. They were given a time estimate within one or two hours or so.
** It seems that this update was the precursor of the weather event to come, the first notification, and the prediction to arrive within 1-2 hours (or between 3 and 4 pm). This was a heads up on the formation and movement of the outflow boundary. How was this first update treated? What was the discussion about this as being unremarkable? Shouldn’t it have been more of a heads up?
NOTE: Apparently… more ‘suggested response’ text…
You recall that between 1405 and 1526, the fire behavior was increasing, but there were no dramatic problems.
This is the timeframe during which the ICP was evacuated, with fire several hundred yards away, burnout operations, and structure protection. If ICP is threatened, is this considered a dramatic problem?
NOTE: Apparently… more ‘suggested response’ text…
You recall that, at 1526, a new weather report showed a big change. The winds were shifting from the north to northeast, with the possibility of 40 to 50 mile per hour gusts. We understand you were alarmed by the weather report and ensured that each of the crews got the information. You could also see two cells building, one to the north and one to the south. You were particularly concerned about the cell to the north because the north cell was building and collapsing, building and collapsing. This would create a risk of downwind bursts that could affect fire behavior.
The SAIR makes the following statement, pg 48: The outflow boundary update that the NWS communicated to FBAN at 1526 seems to have been relayed efficiently throughout the incident organization. FBAN radioed the update to Operations, and Operations checked in with the crews to make sure they received the update.
Are you aware that numerous resources, including the following, report never having received this critical 1526 update? Shrine resources, Blue Ridge hotshot crew, DIVS Marquez, Shawn Jackson/BLM, DPS Ranger 58 crew, E151-Shrine area LOOKOUT. Rob Beery states: 1545: Confirmation was not requested from the divisions.
( End of Page 1 ( of 2 pages ) )
( See next ‘Reply’ for Page 2 )…
** Issues to Discuss With Todd Abel – Page 2 ( of 2 pages )
Byron Kimball also notes in ADOSH interview that he does recall division confirmation on the first 1405 weather update, but he did not hear division confirmation on the second 1526 weather update.
Please describe the conversation you had with Marsh about the weather updates. You mention talking with him about clouds building and collapsing. Discuss specifics about the 1526 NWS update and the specific relay of this update to Marsh.
NOTE: Apparently… more ‘suggested response’ text…
You did not recall having a discussion of the timing parameters given in the weather report (the 30 plus minutes expected for the weather to change). You also noted that timing issues are routinely discounted in weather reports because they are so variable and hugely unreliable. There was no discussion of this weather as a threat to general Granite Mountain specifically, other than what you and Marsh spoke about.
Please elaborate on discounting weather timing issues.
The second weather update was a continuation of the first one, issued at 1405. This wind event was not new, it was being tracked all afternoon by NWS. Nor was it a surprise or an unanticipated change. The second update at 1526 was a more specific and current update on the same outflow boundary event referred to by the 1405 update. There is much confusion in SAIR and ADOSH reports about the two weather updates, who heard what and when. There is often confusion between the two updates and their relation to each other. When you state that you delivered weather update to Eric Marsh, did you deliver BOTH updates to him? Many on the fire report having received the first update but not having received the second update, and being caught off guard by the 1600 wind shift, although it was predicted.
The timing prediction on the first at 1405 was 1-2 hours, and was less specific-arrival between 3 and 4 pm. The timing on the second at 1526 was within a half hour, or by 4 pm and was a narrower timeframe and an accurate one in the end.
NOTE: Apparently… more ‘suggested response’ text…
With respect to weather forecasts and Air Attack information:
Discuss the fact that AA Rory Collins told Marsh that the fire would reach Yarnell in 1-2 hours ( at 1550 ).
Discuss approaching outflow boundary, invisible, tracked on Doppler radar, and AA ability to see this coming VS. NWS meteorologists. Whose prediction is more likely to be accurate regarding an incoming outflow boundary? This wind event was only visible on Doppler radar and had been tracked for several hours by NWS.
The NWS tracked this event all afternoon on radar. Air Attack clearly did not receive this update, he went off of current fire behavior in his ROS prediction to Eric Marsh. Please discuss time predictions by NWS, and how these predictions are viewed by fire overhead.
Discuss whether AA or Bravo units should be included in weather updates by NWS. Can this and should this be used as a Lesson Learned?
( End of Page 2 ( of 2 pages ) )
END OF NOTES ON ‘ISSUES TO DISCUSS’ WITH TOD ABEL
What is strange about this weather report thing is that the GMHS did not even need a weather report. They were looking at the pending storm since early morning–If they are not trained enough to know that when you are looking at lightening and storm clouds in the near proximity that you will have sudden and extreme weather and wind changes then they approximate the three stooges. Certainly cowboy Rick Mckensie would have added that to his warning of stay out of the thick manzanita if that fire is near–I know him personally and I will chide him to include a warning about the lightening and storm cloud indications for the next GMHS crew types.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on June 9, 2016 at 2:36 pm
Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
—————————————————————————————
The ultimate responsibility of all WFF supervisors is the SAFETY AND WELFARE OF THOSE THEY SUPERVISE. PERIOD! Nothing else matters.
Those Rookie and fairly inexperienced GMHS trusted and respected their leaders, because they didn’t know any better. However, there were many of them that KNEW what they were doing was wrong and unsafe and more and followed them anyway. They were taking a fatal ‘Trip to Abilene.’ Because they were told by some frickin moron that it was Easter!
Roxanne Warneke, stated “”I had remembered a saying that my husband had once told me when we were deer scouting two years before. He said to never go into a canyon. That inside a canyon would be thick brush, and how wind travels through a canyon. I know my husband’s military and firefighter training. Descending into that canyon went against everything he had ever been taught
… I was enraged. ….
Warneke said she believes her husband would only have abandoned a safe ridge and hiked into danger if he was directed to do so.
“ORDERS,” she explained. “HE WAS A MARINE WHO WAS USED TO FOLLOWING ORDERS.” (azcentral.com June 30, 2015 at 1011 MST)
During the YHF Family Staff Ride at Stand 5, on the high ridge (mid slope) road, I mentioned that at that point, Groupthink was likely occurring amongst the GMHS. She said her husband Billy would have been the one leading a group to stay in the safe black and not follow everyone else down into the unburned chutes and chimneys and bowl.
——————————————————————————
RTS… a question for you ( regarding the last paragraph )… and this statement…
“She ( Roxanne Warneke ) said her husband Billy would have been the one leading a group to stay in the safe black and not follow everyone else down into the unburned chutes and chimneys and bowl.
Did you get the impression that she believes that is what really DID happen that day?
That there WAS some subset of GM Hotshots who would have been openly protesting
the move… and that her husband would have been right there at the front, agreeing with them?
It hasn’t been talked about much… but I’ve always thought that YES… even after Jesse
Steed might have LOST his own ‘argument’ with Marsh… and just ‘gave in’ to Marsh’s
demands… that some ‘subset’ of the Crew would still have needed a lot MORE convincing
to do something as STUPID as what they were being TOLD to do.
So, perhaps, even after ORDERS were coming from Marsh… and there was that moment
of consternation… perhaps even MORE ‘arguments’ ensued ( and OFF the intra-crew radio )
between Steed and the Squad Leaders and/or the men themselves?
Maybe Jesse Steed ended up having to pull his own ( mis-guided ) “Just DO it because
I told Marsh we would… and now I’m ordering YOU to do it”?
There’s been a LARGE amount of ‘assuming’ going on that once the consternation between Marsh and Steed had resolved… and Steed has just said “Fuck it… okay… we’re coming down”… that everyone else just ‘gaggled up’ without any discussion and off they went.
Maybe that has NEVER been the case… and Jesse Steed had his own ‘fight’ on his hands as soon as he got off the radio with Marsh.
And since Sean Flynn and his original GQ “No Exit” article have both been “thrown off the bus” that is the in-progress major-motion picture about this tragedy… it will be interesting to see what script writers Ken Nolan ( Blackhawk down ) and Eric Singer have actually come up with.
All of the BOOKS that have been published have really all just been running on the same long-standing assumption that the moment Jesse Steed ‘gave in’ to Eric Marsh and said something along the lines of “Okay… Fuck it… I’ll bring the Crew down there”…
…that the other 17 men just ‘jumped up’ and said “We’ll follow you ANYWHERE Jesse… because you are a Greek God!”.
That still *might* be complete horseshit.
The BOOKS could get away with just ‘skipping over this part’.
The FILM will not be able to do so.
Ken Nolan and Eric Singer will have had to have already DECIDED how they are going to portray these moments… because Joseph Kosinski needs to FILM these moments.
Ken Nolan ( Blackhawk down ) is actually famous for NOT “pulling punches”.
There remains the possibility that at least Ken Nolan would have tried to be REALISTIC in his treatment of this ‘moment of decision’ up there between Steed and the Crew.
He *may* have even decided that it went something like this…
Steed ( to the Crew, after finishing his ‘argument’ with Marsh )…
“Okay. You ALL heard it. I think it’s dangerous. Marsh doesn’t. If there’s anybody who doesn’t wanna do this… let’s see a show of hands. You can stay right here and I’ll make sure it doesn’t reflect badly on ANYONE.”
Then… MAYBE there were some heated ‘exchanges’, between any number of people… and not just between any particular crew member and Marsh. Maybe there was (audible) ‘discussion’ amongst the men themselves about it.
But in the end. No hands went up.
Somehow… everyone indicated they were willing to go.
And off they went.
It WILL be ‘interesting’ to see how writers Nolan and Singer have really decided to treat this ‘moment of decision’ up there on that ridge that fateful day.
Correction for above… I meant to type ‘Steed’ in a place I typed ‘Marsh’.
Meant to say…
————————————————————————
Then… MAYBE there were some heated ‘exchanges’, between any number of people… and not just between any particular crew member and Steed. Maybe there was (audible) ‘discussion’ amongst the men themselves about it.
———————————————————————–
The moments I’m talking about are the off-radio ones… AFTER Steed had already ‘given in’ to Marsh. We already know ( from the MacKenzie videos ), that when Steed was talking on intra-crew to Marsh… everyone else could HEAR both sides of the conversation.
So it’s the moments AFTER the ‘radio talk’ that Joseph Kosinski still has to FILM… and there have to be decisions made ( realistic ones ) about how the ‘gaggle up’ actually went down that day.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Did you get the impression that she believes that is what really DID happen that day?”
Yes, that’s exactly what I said: “She said her husband Billy would have been the one leading a group to stay in the safe black and not follow everyone else down into the unburned chutes and chimneys and bowl.”
You also posted that you think she felt: “That there WAS some subset of GM Hotshots who would have been openly protesting
the move… and that her husband would have been right there AT THE FRONT, AGREEING WITH THEM?” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
NO, she said that her husband Billy would have been LEADING that group. He was a leader in every sense of the word even though he was a rookie GMHS.
He was a Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps at high school and joined the Marines at 17. He was a highly trained and highly skilled Marine Scout Sniper with a tour in Iraq.
And I do NOT think that Steed would have been asking to take a vote. You vote on where you want to eat, what restaurant you want to eat at, NOT if you want to leave a perfectly good Safety Zone and travel through the unburned down chutes and chimneys into a bowl and ….
Thank you.
So the question remains… if that is what really happened ( Billy Warneke was LEADING a subset of GM Hotshots who wanted to remain in the safe black )… then why didn’t they?
It suggests ( as I was suggesting above ) a whole ‘nother set of ‘confrontations’ up there on that ridge… over and above whatever took place between Jesse Steed and Eric Marsh.
Fernanda Santos’ recent book was pretty much entirely based on her belief that Granite Mountain ALWAYS acted ‘as one complete unit’… and Santos even explains that is why she BEGINS her book with the actual SAIR diagram showing how all the shelters were deployed together at the site of the burnover.
She ( Santos ) thinks that one ‘diagram’ is complete proof of what a ‘solid unit’ the GM Hotsots were.
In the end… of course that diagram looks the way it does.
In the end… there was nowhere else to go and nothing left to do but lie down on the ground in the configuration shown. They didn’t even have time to clear some brush right where they were laying down… and that is why it looks like a ‘horseshoe’ configuration.
But I don’t believe that means, for one moment, that there wasn’t a whole lot of consternation and ( yes ) ‘arguing’ going on about the decisions themselves that afternoon.
…and maybe IF that discussion happened, it would of course have meant the Big Dog just ate up the distance between them during that time it took to resolve..
All of that of course gave them less time to get to the BSR.
damn those “missing” GM gps units, and damn the investigation teams for not having someone who knew how to extract gps data from cached logs on smart phones. FFS!
Reply to Otis post on June 10, 2016 at 3:40 am
>> Otis said…
>>
>> …and maybe IF that discussion happened, it
>> would of course have meant the Big Dog just
>> ate up the distance between them during that
>> time it took to resolve..
>>
>> All of that of course gave them less time to
>> get to the BSR.
Yep. Every minute counted and would soon become the minutes they would NEED to have any chance at staying alive that day.
>> Otis also said…
>>
>> damn those “missing” GM gps units, and
>> damn the investigation teams for not having
>> someone who knew how to extract gps data
>> from cached logs on smart phones. FFS!
…and damn Eric Marsh for mistakenly believing he had the TIME for ‘business as usual’ and just do his little “scout ahead and tie ribbons on things” dance that afternoon… while the men who would all soon die just sat up there playing tourist and taking pretty pictures.
Even if Marsh wasn’t sure the shortcut through the canyon was even possible… if he had already made up his mind he WAS going to bring those men to town… either through the canyon ( if possible ) or along the ‘alternate escape route’… then they should have ALL left to head SOUTH at the SAME TIME Marsh did.
They did NOT have the TIME that afternoon for this “You wait here and when I get most of the way down there I’ll call you” game they played that afternoon.
The TIME that Jesse Steed and the Crew wasted just waiting to hear from Marsh ( and playing tourist at the ‘rest spot’ ) is the very time they needed to eventually stay alive that day.
…and damn Jesse Steed for not making those men do DOUBLE-TIME on even the first leg of the risky move… even though ( according to what Brendan McDonough supposedly admitted to Darrell Willis ) he had ALREADY been making it known to Eric Marsh he thought the whole move was ‘dangerous’ in the first place.
As for this part…
>> Otis also said…
>>
>> damn the investigation teams for not having
>> someone who knew how to extract gps data
>> from cached logs on smart phones. FFS!
That’s a very good observation.
Yes… sorry to burst the bubble of all you little smartphone users out there… but what Otis is implying here is CORRECT.
If you have GPS chips in your little handheld… then they are being USED by the ‘Operating System’ and various ‘applications’ whether you know it or not… and whether you have given your ‘approval’ for it to be happening.
Mobile Opertating systems will keep the GPS chips ‘warmed up’ the entire time the handheld is actually ON ( and sometimes even when it is not ).
There have to be at least 3 of the low-earth satellites used for a GPS fix above the horizon at any particular moment in order to get a good, accurate GPS fix.
If you ‘cold-start’ the phone and the GPS chips aren’t ‘warmed up’ yet… sometimes it can take up to 60 seconds or more just to ‘acquire’ the signal packets from at least 3 satellites to give you an accurate fix.
So the Mobile Operating Systems try to keep the chips ‘warm’ and have them also always contain a number of ‘last known good location fixes’ in a ‘cache’… so they can be referenced by API ( Application Program Interface ) calls even when you might have gone into a tunnel and you momentarily don’t have any cell signal of can’t ‘see’ the GPS satellites.
So yea… Otis is correct… anyone who knows Mobile Operating Systems knows where to go ‘find’ this ‘cached/logged’ GPS location information.
It’s even easier if you happen to have APPS installed like ‘Friend Finder’. Over and above the Operating System ‘caches’ and ‘logs’… these applications have their OWN ‘caches’ and ‘logs’ and ‘history’ data regarding your GPS location(s).
Granite Mountain Hotshot Kevin Woyjeck had a smartphone with him out on that ridge… and he DID have the ‘Friend Finder’ APP installed and RUNNING that day.
Kevin Woyjeck’s own father CONFIRMED this… and said at some point in the morning… he was actually able to SEE his son’s location out there on the Weaver Mountains, west of Yarnell.
USA Today
Article title: Father tracked firefighter son on cell the day he died
Published: 9:04 p.m. EDT June 29, 2014
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/29/yarnell-fire-firefighter-father-son-technology/11723851/
From the article…
——————————————————–
PHOENIX — The firefighting father and son lived in different states. But each used a mobile-phone program, an application called Find My Friends, to keep track of where the other was.
Pressing a button on his phone, Kevin Woyjeck could see his father’s location when he went on calls as a captain with the Los Angeles County Fire Department.
Joe Woyjeck could see his son traverse the Southwest during summers as a member of the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew.
On the morning of June 30, Joe Woyjeck was playing with his dog in the front yard of his Southern California home.
He clicked on his phone. An icon representing his son popped up on a map. The phone said he was somewhere outside the community of Yarnell.
Later on, Joe would regret that he didn’t save a screen shot of that map. But at that moment, he didn’t know he would have a reason to do so. He was just taking a peek, as the two always did.
——————————————————–
In the ‘Clothing and Personal Effects’ section Kevin Woyjeck’s autopsy report, it DOES say that a ‘cellular phone’ was recovered ( and was apparently in his shirt pocket )… but the report also says it was ‘melted’.
Unlike Eric Marsh’s cellphone, which was also recovered from HIS shirt pocket at the Medical Examiner’s office but then mysteriously ‘disappeared’, Kevin Woyjeck’s cellphone DID enter the YCSO POLICE evidence chain and it WAS sent to ACTIC ( Arizona Counter Terrorism Information Center ) to see if they could get any data off it.
ACTIC was, apparently, not able to do so.
But there is also no indication that even ACTIC made any attempt to recover any GPS cache/log data from the other smartphones that WERE still in ‘working order’… or at least in good enough shape to still retrieve data.
Followup… also from the SECOND part of that same article linked to above.
Joe Woyjeck is a lifelong firefighter but he and his wife were one of the first to file their ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit on behalf of their deceased son, Kevin Woyjeck.
But it wasn’t for money. It was because ( after reading the initial SAIR investigation ), then knew the only way to get the TRUTH out of Arizona Forestry was to wrestle them to the ground and FORCE it out of them… for the GOOD of ‘saving lives’ in the future…
———————————————————
The Woyjecks are among the families who have filed lawsuits against Yavapai County and Arizona’s Forestry Division.
Joe said he is not seeking money as much as answers. He wants to find out what happened to his son and see what can be done to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
He read reports that said commanders were not sure where the Granite Mountain crew was. He thinks of that June 2013 morning and how he so easily could look at his phone and see his son’s location.
“It’s really hard for me to understand how they didn’t know where the crews were at,” he said, “when I’m playing with my dog on my front lawn and I know where my son is, all the way in Southern California.”
————————————————————
So make no mistake…
It is still only a SMALL SUBSET of ‘Family Members’ who believe there is “Nothing to see here… Please wave your flags and move along”.
MOST of the ‘Family Members’ ( as evidenced now by the long list of questions to be asked on February 5, 2016 ) still want the TRUTH… and MOST of the ‘Family Members’ have ALWAYS understood that the BEST way to prevent this from ever happening again is to know, as much as humanly possible, about WHY and HOW it ever happened in the first place.
Otis, you are another hero here. That you would take the time to interest yourself and give us an outside opinion–an unbiased opinion means much to all here–and we do need that. Too many agendas here on this side of the world. –When it comes to ferreting out bull shit you do well.
WTKTT–If you evaluate the leaders that killed the men, they were as rookie as the rookies.
Regarding the Tenderfoot Fire, it’s ar 1237 acres, a Type 2 IMT has been ordered:
http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4774/
I am sorry- I have not been able to get online-
I am in Scottsdale- ready for Mayo tomorrow-
Recap.
Stephanie called me as I was watching the Walk (twin towers)
and asked if I had evacuated yet? I was like HUH?
I quickly grab camera with no sd card or battery and my cell and run up the boulder mountains across from Sonny.
I took pics and had problems making calls or even texts at times-
I am really sorry for not keeping up but here it goes-
Sorry John DOugherty for my emotional voice mail
I was beyond broken and here is WHY
I am a civilian hiker who just watched them do hard work building that DOllar General and new homes in area and I witnessed a man set fire over there and as fast as I could with my heart out of my chest I ran to cabin to grab batteries and sd card and SOnny drove me to dollar general store and I darted to Hot shots (Squad boss said he was a brother to CLayton Whitted and I said horseshit and he further explained Clayton taught him his sawyer skills and I raised a heated emotional angry demand asking why they set fire to that area and the squad boss said we are just doing hand tools and I said bullshit- I was on top of the boulders filming and I saw it was set and he said THAT VOLUNTEER WAS RELEASED AND HE WAS AWARE OF IT! I was HOT…It was TOO CLOSE the BURN to structures- He assured me he had it under control- I then saw the 2 sheriffs come to gladly escort me off letting me know that east side is mandatory stay off of—oh really—he said I live in this town and I am not going to allow it to go up— both the hotshot and local fire dept told me they had the only resources they had and are doing the best they can…I was torn as I explained to Norb because here I am this civilian that has to be educated of the wildland firefighting ways so my anger lessened and thought I have to accept they are fixing the dumb ass mistake but WHY can’t a dozer just clear a spot in that area?
I cannot with my health be pulled to these locals and help like last time…and it began…my cell rang off the hook…I stayed with a local until almost 11:30 midnight avoiding authorities trying to get photos and videos but I was so disinterested in taking photos because I did not have my photo guy Sonny saying take a pic of this or that—
by 2:43am I had done stopped looking and crashed and was awoken to early bird Sonny at 5:45a,m. and well…I am charging cell because all my stuff died and when I get it up I will post links to the photos and again sorry for the delay but I was not going to drive CHECK ENGINE light geo that SOnny has been come alonging boulders lately with no ac and go to the MAYO in Scottsdale….so with dead cell I left rental and headed on highway 74 and I went to the spa and got a hand and foot pamper than I cut off almost 14 inches of my hair- I have a few inches left on my head 🙂
Let me go back to the hotel room and grab my cell to get google verification since I am using hotel lobby pc—
but I do have to sleep soon—
I can tell you I watched LIVE the towers burn and I have eyewitness that area was suspicious- explain more later.
I also have some beginning photos from John a hiker who got the Stanton side of it-
I also will share much more but let me work on photos-
this message since in new area might get moderated.
this pc in lobby will not let me copy and paste
so here I type the link out
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8RVyGdxbs15akdwzG1yam9fejQ&usp=sharing
I will also email a few of you the link and if that link does not work maybe the email one will-
Stephanie called my cell yesterday at 3:41pm and 3:39pm and I missed the calls because I was watching the walk dvd my husband had just dropped off with Sonny and dogs but I turned my head and saw missed calls and called her at 3:57 because it was unlike Steph to call twice so fast- She was concerned so I said I would run up the boulders across from Sonny grab some photos and walk to her home- I ran into a rattlesnake up there and when I saw that “volunteer” do what he did I forgot to go to her place until later- I was pissed. Nancy Cameron saw me and picked me up when I later met with JP/MP/MM/RP and was it hard for me to say to Rita- three years later here we are again- I want to know where the gps they think it started because local John got a photo between 3-330pm over the back way of Stanton- I am highly traumatized about this and I doubt I can get back in—but I will again investigate this bullshit fire—it is so dumb…backburn like I eyewitness- I seriously got so sad and mad and full of heavy tears I could of hit the kid that did that in my humble opinion of this were the 1970’s and not this new world horseshit because there was no reason for it…I was glad to see Nancy go to Prescott yesterday because I was concerned for her—Real estate Dorman told Sonny his cell was not working…I watched the tower burn and FYI whomever had that vehicle stationed there when I am able I will be FOIA your ass on that one because I have seriously credible county employee eyewitness—
I am heading up to the room now-
good night…
don’t want to pass my five 🙂 max—
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 9, 2016 at 10:43 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> this pc in lobby will not let me copy and paste
>>
>> I will also email a few of you the link and if that link
>> does not work maybe the email one will-
Thank you Joy. Amazing photos.
The following link works…
Folder Name: 6916
Contains: 181 photos
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8RVyGdxbs15akdwZG1yam9fejQ&usp=sharing
Sorry for the shaky pics but I am traumatized by this event…over how many thousands of acres now? I will be home soon and I am gonna talk and investigate all the folks I know in that back way Stanton area because I am not buying the official crap and I will dissect this fire deeper than the last one…
Like I said I will be heading as the desert walker does –back on the off beaten trails to get to prospectors just like last fire because these people DO NOT HAVE CELLS or communications and I will update them– I imagine the trail after Arrowhead bar is closed off so I will go in another way—the benefits of “knowing” that very terrain…keep you posted—I won’t be in area until dusk though
Well…I have something I want to share with you because…you know the rest.
As you know…I use my web site ourfiregods.com as a face book page sometimes because well…I don’t use face book and it is very important that every know what I have been doing in my golden years (more or less).
And as you know…we periodically speculate just how influential this IM blog is to the forces of evil and some forces of good who lurk in the shadows. And sometimes we get clues that this blog is far more influential than I for one, usually think of it to be.
For example, the recent exchange between Otis and myself speculating on the origins of many of the questions asked by some of the families of the crew and there have been many others over the past 3 years.
Well…I have one to report that we can put an actual number on…sort of. I just looked at the analytical tool I use to track statistics for my web sites and I specifically looked at the one tracking ourfiregods.com. Over thirteen (13.1) percent of all of the hits that site gets comes from….drum role… Washington D.C.
So…keep up the good work, we ARE making a difference…maybe? In any case, that particular stat surprised me because I get hits from all of the country and the world. The tracking tools I use do not identify IPO’s (individual addressees, I think some do, but I go cheap), but it does track countries, states, regions and other things like hours and days of the week of hits, etc.
For example, more than five (5.4) percent comes from VIRGINIA, which of course are the same people who work in Washington D.C. and who are checking out my links from their home computers,
Thirty one (31) percent comes from Arizona, six (6) percent from California (?) and thirty nine (39) percent from all other states and whatever is left over from the rest of the world which isn’t much but it all means something.
Arizona (no surprise) California (which is a surprise) and VIRGINIA, in addition to Washington D.C. are the only states (and district) that have high enough numbers to get their very own category separate from “all other states.”
Hardly anybody cares about my stupid book, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods”, so that’s not the reason anybody is going to my web site …it is THIS blog!
Author John Maclean himself lives in the Washington, D.C. area.
From his own PUBLIC Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/johnn.maclean?fref=ufi&rc=p
———————————————————-
About John Maclean…
Lives in Washington, District of Columbia.
———————————————————-
John Maclean also ‘Shared a link’ just recently… and it was to that comment that one of his own research assistants ( someone named Holly Neill ) left on John Dougherty’s recent article about Mike Dudley refusing to even LOOK at DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE that had been offered to the SAIT about Granite Mountain.
Holly Maclean published the same ‘comments’ simultaneously over on her own ‘Safety Matters’ Facebook page… and while Maclean did not comment on it on his OWN ‘Shared Link’ on his OWN Facebook page… he did comment on the ensuing discussion at ‘Safety Matters’ saying he was so glad to see such a ‘civil’ discussion.
Maclean doesn’t know that Holly Neill just throws whatever comments SHE doesn’t like on the floor over at this ‘Safety Matters’ thing… just like Bill Gabbert does at ‘Wildfire Today’.
( only in THAT case… SHE is a HE, of course ).
So while Maclean didn’t comment on his own ‘Shared Link’ about a comment no a news article coming from his own research assistant which essentially just said “I don’t like this article. I don’t like what it even implies… and I just want to say that here is my own information from sources that want to remain ANONYMOUS which everyone should automatically believe contradicts just SOME of the details about just ONE of the ‘Incidents’ mentioned by a respected former Type 1 Hotshot who not only had the courage to try and offer DOCUMENTED PROOF to Mike Dudley… he also now has the courage to go ON THE RECORD and stand by his statements”.
All Holly Neill was trying to do was take issue with just SOME of the DETAILS of just ONE of the ‘Incidents’ that David Provencio had mentioned with regards to Granite Mountain.
And she thinks that automatically ‘waters down’ EVERYTHING David Provencio ( and others ) have to say about Granite Mountain.
She was using ANONYMOUS sources to try and refute someone who is now ON THE RECORD.
Let her get ‘out of the fucking way’ and let those ‘anonymous sources’ locate their own spinal fluid and go ‘on the record’ ( with John Dougherty ) like David Provencio had the courage to do.
Neill will then say that one of her sources was obvious… and it was the IC for the Horseshoe 2 fire… but she will still totally ignore the fact that MOST of the people SHE was trying to quote to refute David Provencio “wish to remain anonymous”.
So Holly Neill did nothing but basically say “I would like to PUBLICLY present information from anonymous sources regarding something I have not fully investigated just to say that I don’t think someone should ever PUBLICLY present information from even KNOWN sources about something that has not been fully investigated”.
She just-keeps-forgetting what that InvestigativeMEDIA article was REALLY about.
It wasn’t JUST about the fucking ‘Horseshoe 2’ fire.
The ARTICLE was ABOUT proof-positive that OTHER former ( and current ) Type 1 Hotshots were not surprised, in any way, to learn that Granite Mountain had suffered a terrible accident.
The ARTICLE was ABOUT actual DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE of excessive ‘risk taking’ on the part of Granite Mountain on MULTIPLE occasions ( earning Marsh the nickname “One Up” ) being directly OFFERED to the people who were being PAID to investigate the GM tragedy… INCLUDING any/all ‘Human Factors’ that might have been the cause of it… and those people didn’t even bother to respond. Instead of “going where the evidence leads you”… as all real investigators know to do… we SEE them deciding that it was a place they ( these investigators ) did “NOT WANT TO GO”.
They didn’t even want to consider the possibility that the DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE being offered to them by a respected former Type 1 Hotshot Superintendent might actually be TRUE.
Followup…
After John Maclean himself ‘shared’ that “Here’s partially investigated information to say that I don’t think anyone should ever publish partially investigated information” comment from one of his own research assistants ( Holly Neill )… some people made some ‘comments’ on that ‘comment’ over on Maclean’s page that didn’t show up over on Neill’s Facebook page.
According to those commenters on Maclean’s site… WE ( here ) are all SLIME… and the only reason respected former Type 1 Hotshot Superintendent David Provencio might have been offering information to an ‘Accident’ investigation into the deaths of 19 firefighters is because he was trying to enhance his own ego.
From Maclean’s PUBLIC Facebook page…
————————————————————————-
Comment by: Karen Pfyl – June 1 at 2:58pm
Thank you for the clarification. I am not sure what the Geronimo super’s real motivation was in slamming Eric and the crew, but it was wrong and really hurt those of us who lost family in that damn fire. I guess he wanted his moment. I really believe that John Dougherty spins his “stories” just to make himself more valuable to his peers, who knows. The final nail for any respectability he may have had was when he published the autopsy reports. The man is slime, so of course he had to take things out of context or just publish one man’s opinion of the “truth” quotes represent my sarcasm. These people are slime. Let the boys rest in peace.
Comment by: Andew Logan – June 1 at 6:41 PM
It saddens me to hear that a “Sup” would be calloused enough to run a group of dead men through the mud and muck to show superiority…. Brotherhood took another blow to the armor.
————————————————————————-
Once again… people keep MISSING THE POINT of the very article they choose to comment on.
The ARTICLE was about ‘documented evidence’ being offered to Mike Dudley and the SAIT… and THEY refused to even consider it or follow up on it.
NOTE: Karen Pyfl is (apparently) the sister of Bryan Zuppiger, the father of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Garret Zuppiger. ( In other words.. Garrett Zuppiger’s Aunt ).
She is ( obviously ) unaware that MOST of the detailed ‘questions’ that the families of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots wanted REAL answers to were coming DIRECTLY from articles written by John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA… and from this ongoing discussion.
And as for the comment about the autopsy reports…
Again… the commenter does not seem to realize that some VERY important information was/is contained in those ‘reports’ that still *might* just tell us more about how it was their ended up being 19 autopsy reports in the first place.
The autopsy reports PROVED that a number of items of crucial evidence were sitting right in the shirt pockets of the men that died… and then those crucial evidence items just ‘walked out the door’ of the Medical Examiner’s office and did NOT enter the official POLICE investigator’s ‘chain of evidence’.
The autopsy reports seem to PROVE that there were no major physical injuries PRIOR to the burnover that *might* have been the reason they wasted so much time on their ‘hike’ that they became entrapped.
There WERE a number of ‘bone fractures’ reported… but ALL of them appear to have been ‘heat related’, and the Medical Examiner’s said so.
There WAS a very strange set of subdural hematomas ( deep, under the skin bruises ) on the FOREHEAD of Clayton Whitted. that cannot be explained by thermal influences. TWO separate matchbook-size bruises on either side of his forehead.
Those COULD still indicate a very serious FALL INJURY prior to the burnover… with *might* explain why they ended up wasting all that time that afternoon.
From Clayton Whitted’s report…
————————————————————————-
Clayton Whitted – Evidence of blunt force injuries include a 4 x 3 cm area of left frontal subscalp hemorrhage and a 3 x 1 cm area of right frontal subscalp hemorrhage.
DIMENSIONS…
LEFT – 4 x 3 cm area = 1.57 inch x 1.18 inch area.
RIGHT – 3 x 1 cm area = 1.18 inch x 0.39 inch area
————————————————————————-
In other words.. BOTH ‘contusions’ on his forehead were about the size of a full book of matches. That could be enough to cause a ‘concussion’ equivalent FALL injury.
Subdural hematoma’s are not the same as sub scalp bleeding. Subdural hematomas are a collection of blood between the brain and the skull. Sub scalp hematomas are essentially a bruise whereby the bleeding occurs between the scalp and the skull. We have all seen the big knot that can form on one’s head when it it hit hard enough. While unsightly and painful, it will not kill you. On the other hand, a subdural will. Boxers who are killed in a fight often suffer from a subdural. Now, you are right that the sub scalp hematoma’s could indicate a fall and the result of that could be a concussion. Just want to get the difference out there because it is significant.
Reply to Observer on June 9, 2016 at 5:31 pm
>> Observer said…
>>
>> Just want to get the difference out there because it is significant.
Thank you… but actually… the ‘difference’ is that I am the one who inadvertently used a WORD that is actually NOT in the Medical Examiner’s Report… so my apologies.
The Medical Examiner’s report ONLY says the following…
————————————————————–
Clayton Whitted – Evidence of blunt force injuries include a 4 x 3 cm area of left frontal subscalp hemorrhage and a 3 x 1 cm area of right frontal subscalp hemorrhage.
————————————————————–
“Subscalp hemorrhage”… NOT “Subscalp hematoma”.
So there WAS ‘bleeding under the scalp’ associated with these 2 forehead injuries.
>> Observer said…
>>
>> Subdural hematoma’s are not the same as sub scalp bleeding.
See above. According to the Medical Examiner there WAS “Subscalp bleeding”.
No argument from me on the sub scalp issue. Just a clarification that he didn’t have bleeding on the brain. He did suffer some injury prior to the turnover that was significant enough to have a couple of knots on his forehead.
Yes… and the Medical Examiner’s report for Scott Norris ( signed by Lesley E. Warris ) was making it quite clear that these were DEFINTELY “blunt force injuries” versus “thermal injuries”.
These “blunt force injuries” remain actual PHYSICAL EVIDENCE that still begs for an explanation.
Maybe Scott Norris was simply ‘banging his head’ on the ground trying to knock himself unconscious… as has actually been reported to have happened with other firefighters in other entrapment situations…
Or maybe Scott Norris really DID go ‘ass over teakettle’ on the descent and this really DID force the entire column to HALT and spend precious minutes making sure he was okay to continue.
The fall injury WTKTT is talking about was of high probality–consider that both Bruce Hanna of ADOSH and Joy Collura fell and sustained injuries when they were tracking the route that GMHS took off the two track to where they deployed. That was two out of four of us that were hiking that route. Bruce hurt himself badly enough and that was in the black. Consider the rock slides and brush to trip you up going down and it was no wonder that Clayton Whitted would have been one to fall out of 18 descending from the two track. You can bet others had fallen as well–In the case of Bruce Hanna he injured his leg in the fall. The ground was so steep that unless you are a good roller skater with exceptional balance your chances of falling are about 50% going down that steep decline.
It is not real smart to descend toward a fire with that kind of steepness behind you no matter how fit you think you are. Cowboy McKensey, bless his heart for good advice, told those men that morning not to get down into that manzanita thick brush. In that case of descending those men were on a 106 F day and depleted. Depleted men do better going downhill than they do uphill. But falls would be increased due to the loss of concentration and I can bet that at least 1/4 of those men had some sort of fall going down into that box canyon.
I have enjoyed reading questions asked by WTKTT. The hero that gives the answers will significantly move this story toward the golden truth. I applaud Provencio for standing up and giving his version of how Marsh was a great risk taker with the lives of his men. Although you do not need his testimony to know that fact it just verifies what many that hiked up there witnessed with unbelief that Marsh would risk those men and they would take that route. If you want verification of that fact then all you need do is hike it to see what I am talking about.
Holly Neil and her husband Wayne Neil along with Dr. Ted Putnam hiked that very two track with Joy and me. Wayne and Ted declared it a wrong thing to do and Ted said no way he would have led his men down into that box. Holly Neil never commented that I know of as to whether she would or not if in charge of a crew. No look out, not way to escape and going down hill into a trap with a raging fire and weather conditions soon to bring in 45 mph gusts and brush to cross so dense that even deer and Javalina were trapped and burned to death near the area–photos that Joy has after the fire.
It is like this–you can’t say Marsh was not high risk taker. Nor can you paint Marsh as a hero in the sense he carelessly caused all his crew to be killed. No matter how much Holly or others connected to Marsh try they will not be able to deny the facts.
Reply to Charlie post on June 10, 2016 at 12:08 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I have enjoyed reading questions asked by WTKTT.
Charlie… just to be CLEAR… the ‘lists of questions’ I have been posting lately are NOT MINE ( although they do closely resemble questions that have been raised by not just me, but MANY on this forum, since day one ).
The question I have been posting lately come DIRECTLY from ‘Family Members’ of the 19 men who were burned to death in that chaotic Arizona Forestry workplace on June 30, 2013.
They are the questions the wives and mothers and fathers of the men who perished still want answers to.
I want anyone who might be following this forum but has been reluctant to say what they know and have been hiding behind some kind of misconception about ‘protecting the family members’ to READ those QUESTIONS.
THOSE are the QUESTIONS that even the ‘family members’ themselves want answered.
MOST of the Family Members still want the TRUTH.
Only a small subset are the ones who just want all the talk to stop and everyone to just be content to wave flags, and move along.
Then Holly Dropped me from Safety Matters for asking specific questions and asserting that she was using Safety Matters to promote her own agenda.
Which is out side the original intent and Goal of Safety Matters. It is a Face Book Page to discuss Wild Land Fire Safety Problems.
It is a group I thought but now realize no longer exists that was to put information to gather and send letters to Washington Wild land Fire detailing things that needed done.
Well to my knowledge only one letter went out. I leave the rest to past and Current Wild Land Fire Fighters to decide.
Safety Maters has nothing to do with helping to change policy. It is now Run By Holly Neil who is using it to change the facts about Granit Mountain as the True believer in Granit Mountains position as Victims.
Her last posting is to degrade the Ten Standard Orders as Lies that can not save Fire Fighters. Those so called Lies include LCES, weather Predictions, Fire Behavior, Communications, Supervision and Safety.
Where and what is Safety Matters? It is a Face book page no longer a voice of Wild Land Fire Fighters. HOLLY RUNS THE PAGE TO DO AS SHE LIKES.
Safety Matters will never help Wild Land Fire Fighters because it is an outside organization, that has no clout with the Federal Agencies.
Change as always will have to come from the ground up with in the individual Agencies.
There are many other organizations out there with Far more clout that still Listen to the Ground pounders. The National Association of Retired Forest Service
Employees. Retired Hot Shot Superintendents. They are actually making recommendations on Fire Safety all the time.
Certainly Joy is uploading some photos of the new Yarnell fire that started yesterday at one of the microwave towers near town. It has burned off the east side of Hwy 89 and scared enough people to again declare evacuation orders. I have not gone anywhere, although most of the town has left. I see a few that came back but I have heard once they return they can not leave Yarnell until the order is lifted.
Joy took my Geo down the hill today–she needed communications and especially to talk to her doctor for a trip to Phoenix on Friday. As soon as she left the electric was turned back on. I did go to the Post Office today and only passed one Sheriff vehicle–saw that all the mountain on the east side is burned down similar to the fire that killed the 19. Maybe one house burned and lots of smoke to the NE today.
Joy got escorted off by a deputy after talking to one of the hot shot crew right above the new Dollar Store. I think they were doing a back burn there–a crew lined up going up the hill from the store.
Not much left to burn down and no thunder storms in sight so the general winds from the west keep the smoke and fire going east. This was a burn off of lots of manzanita–maybe a good thing, especially for the rancher.
There have been lots of agent orange retardant dumps–some right next to dwellings again. I hope this does not finish off as many elderly as the last one did. But that is ho-hum to most-89 deaths since the demise of the 19. No memorial, no setting off of a half section and no mention of anything for these guinea pigs. Well if I last long enough I will see how many more of the elderly die out of the 645 population. Pol Pot and Hitler types would have loved this shit–kill two birds with one slop–fortunately we have no fish here to kill or that would add to the count..
An unfortunate side effect of sending an (possibly in rough shape due to hangover) inexperienced crew member to be the lookout is that he survived when the rest of the crew was burned alive. It is very fortunate that at least one survived but that fact comes with a tragic price tag for the survivor. He is all that is left to be the spokesperson for the crew, and it’s bad… real bad.
I have compassion for Brendan McDonough despite his mistakes and short-comings. One can only imagine the managers who descended upon him immediately following the burn-over and since that moment to perform damage control. The stress, internal struggle, and confusion must be monumental.
I echo WTKTT’s hope that he is getting the professional help he needs. I see a lot of evidence of people taking advantage of him for money. I also see a possible mass conspiracy to prevent him from telling the whole truth of the facts of that day. Careers and pensions may be lost (or incarceration of firefighters) if that were to happen and the upper echelon of the wildfire complex knows this. The system would rather sacrifice a regular ol’ ground pounder than answer for itself. That’s what one lowly crewmember’s well-being is worth – nothing!
I have been pissed at him numerous times over the years for his words, actions, and in-actions. But I can’t imagine what it would be like to be in his boots. In fact, if he came forward and told all, he probably would be exchanging his Whites for a custom pair of concrete boots.
I’m convinced Brendan heard it all as I would have had I been separated from my crew in such circumstances. I’m yet to be convinced that he is getting the professional help he needs and if not, you can add that to the long list of tragedies associated with the Yarnell Hill fire.
Woodsman
Remembering the first Memorial for the Rattle Snake Fire.
in 1993 I went to the dedication and for the First time was able to talk to 3 of the 9 survivors.
They all told the same story why did we survive and not the others. They did not blame themselves but could never answer that question which was still haunting them 40 years later.
These were Missionaries that went on missions around the world in the Late part of 53 and the early part of 54. All they could say was God had no answers but they continued to do his Mission. The survivors always Carrie a heavy burden and always will.
Well Said Woodsman. It is hard to protect your Brothers Lagasse and not open up all of the information you have. I think I can understand that as well even if I disagree with his reasons.
I agree. If Mr. McDonough is not a complete sociopath, he is a good candidate to completely destroy himself one little piece at a time, or all at once with a big bang.
I don’t see a happy ending there unless he makes some drastic changes in how he operates and I hope someone can figure out how to give him the help he needs.
And the first thing people need to do is to quit asking him to relive the YHF over and over again for their amusement and profit while he keeps digging his own hole deeper and deeper in the process..
And FYI…I worked with TWO (2) partners during my time as a special agent who committed suicide (with a gun) and in the same office with a third one. And I personally saw too many to count in both LE and Fire who destroyed their lives with substance abuse…primarily alcohol but several who did it with drugs. It is as common as you already suspect it MIGHT be.
Gary and Woodsman,
Gary said, “And the first thing people need to do is to quit asking him to relive the YHF over and over again for their amusement and profit while he keeps digging his own hole deeper and deeper in the process…”
I would include this blog with those people exploiting Brendan for fun and profit. I know I’m still a newbie around here, so maybe I’m out of line, but I’ve been reading this site for a long time, and I’ve been troubled by the focus on what this young, unformed man can do to solve the mystery of the YHF. I don’t mean to suggest that anyone here has ulterior motives or is being intentionally cruel, but we know that the community is reading this blog and even using it in their own search for the truth. This demands more responsibility of us than is typical on a mostly anonymous internet chat room.
Woodman’s statement above is a perfect summary of why we will never learn the truth through Brendan, no matter how much shame is heaped on him. This can and should be the last word on the subject. As to his need for help, that is probably best left to those around him and is not a useful discussion topic for a public forum. I’m sure I join all of you in wishing him the best in finding a fulfilling life of purpose and value.
There is no mystery to the YHF, only secrets held by many who still walk the streets and hold hero status. We have all alluded to them by position and by name. There are others who heard much if not most of what Brendan heard who were more tuned in and less invested than he was and who seem anxious to tell the truth. It is these people, and the redacters and silencers, who should be a focus here.
I have the utmost respect for this group and your expertise and accomplishments. There is no doubt that the freewheeling and even irreverent conversation has helped to refine the picture of what happened at YHF, and I’m sure it’s already saving lives as an alternative to the official whitewash. Sometimes, though, it might be helpful to move on from unproductive areas and focus where new insights are more likely.
You have a good point. I have a tendency to think the objective (finding out what Mr. McDonough knows and hasn’t shared in this case) is worth the cost and he was given ample opportunity to do the right thing and he didn’t but…you do have a good point.
Obviously…there needs to be a balancing act and since I am a bull in a china shop sometimes (OK, maybe all of the time) I am not the right one to decide where that particular balance point lies.
I do know that if Mr. McDonough no longer declared himself as a “a public figure” for his profession…I for one would quit blogging about how I think he should use his notoriety. And make no mistake… his chosen profession at this time is being a professional victim of the Yarnell Hill Fire and monetizing his status for all it’s worth. .
Gary said, “I am a bull in a china shop sometimes…”
Gary, you are the very picture of restraint and comportment. As I’m sure was evident as you careened down the beach in your 1800 pound machine. BTW, the discussion between you and Woodsman concerning how to get the tire back on the rim reminded me of this clip. It’s about removing a lug nut, but it works:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E0mBxtWQR7M
Anyhow, back to the issue at hand, I think the question of when to stop pursuing a line of inquiry is a difficult balance. In this case I feel that the probability of goading someone into doing something against his interest is very low. Such goading will undoubtedly alienate disinterested parties who may otherwise share your interests, will discourage others who are still in the shadows from approaching JD with new information, and will ultimately work against the pursuit of the truth. This alone should be enough to move on.
Even worse, if this line of conversation contributes in any way to a downward spiral, this blog will be completely discredited. An actual human life is worth more than a few more details (the broad outline of which most have already guessed).
If the issue is that someone is profiting unfairly, that is on him. In any case, I suspect others are probably profiting more than he is, even though he’s taking the brunt of the controversy. I wish him well.
Well…I’m glad I didn’t try that solution in the clip on my UTV and your description of me on the beach does sound kind of bad so I am glad I have turned over a new leaf.
I have some good news for everyone who is looking forward to retirement out there. It will come faster than you think it will. I also have some bad news from everyone who is looking forward to retirement out there…it will come faster than you think it will and I hope you have a better plan than I did.
As far as Mr. McDonough profiting from this disaster…I think he deserves it more than anyone else who is left alive (I am assuming the children and spouses of the crew have been taken care of), so I certainly wish him well in that area.
In fact…if I found a bunch of money under a rock tomorrow, I would be more than happy to give it all to him in exchange for everything he knows and consider it a very fair and honorable trade.
And finally regarding his mental health…I was actually trying to express my concern for how he is doing since he does not seem to be doing well in my opinion, but I guess it came off like I am still berating him which I do not want to do.
I now want to spend all of my energies berating everyone else who I think knows more than they are telling and those who I think share in the responsibility for the deaths of the crew.
And I think WTKTT and the Woodsmen feel the same way I do, I think we as a blog quit picking on him a long time ago but it might be better if I for one do not even mention him because communicating in writing leaves out so much of what we are able to say in person with gestures and facial expressions.
For example, I am pretty sure my words have been misconstrued and taken out of context so many times when exchanging posts with Mr. Second and Mr. Powers. .I regret those incidents because I have so much respect for both of them although we have a deep difference of opinion who else is responsible for the deaths of the crew
Disagreements are the life blood of this blog, and the mutual respect here was apparent to me from the beginning, which is a major reason why I have stuck around.
Well, that, and the fact that you guys are the only wildland firefighters I actually “know.”
BTW, I think the question of how the investigations were deliberately stymied (ADOSH) or torpedoed (SAIR) Is the real issue now. I have been going through some of the mails, with WTKTT as guide. Enlightening.
WTKTT is always enlightening, I think he is some form of AI…so be careful.
Yes I have the world’s smallest fiddle–my heart bleeds for him. I don’t buy it–I think if you were there Woodsman, your heart would certainly be broken–much like nearly all that feel for those deceased and especially the loved ones. I really believe Donut would have been a straight shooter from the beginning if he were in true remorse. I can not see that he was all that much connected–else I would expect a different behavior. But then I am accused of having a hard heart there–yet the hard heart is the one who has followed the leader in keeping a lid on the truth.
Well…maybe not everyone on this blog…strike that part.
Gary–glad you survived the accident.
We do have heart for Marsh and if you had met him you would have liked him right off the bat. I did, It is for certain he did not intentionally kill his men, but it is also certain that he took exceptional and unnecessary risks with his men’s lives. I really believe he recognized his error along last and gave his own life in what he knew was a futile and fatal effort, but a move to be with them in their final moments. He had unintentionally killed those he loved–a sad story indeed.
**
** NEXT SET OF ‘ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS’ THAT GRANITE MOUNTAIN FAMILY
** MEMBERS HAD SUBMITTED IN ADVANCE FOR THE FEBRUARY 5, 2016,
** SETTLEMENT-MANDATED ‘QUESTION AND ANSWER’ DAY.
Here is the next installment of ‘ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS’ that Granite Mountain family members wanted ANSWERS for in the settlement-ordered ‘Question and Answer’ day, which took place in secret on February 5, 2016.
——————————————————————————————–
ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS 1
1. The type 4 IC ordered a Type 2 Incident Management Team. Who made the discussion and what was the decision process to order a Type 2 SHORT Team instead of a FULL type 2 Incident management Team?
2. What team members where requested on the initial order of the Type 2 Short team?
3. How many more resources, (both equipment and personnel) does a full Type 2 team get compared to a Type 2 short Team?
4. Is it true that no resources can travel between 10:00 pm though 4:am? If they could not travel what resource, (personal and equipment) had to hold in place until 4:00 am to continue to travel to the fire?
5. All of the documentation of the Blue Ridge Inter-agency Hot Shot Crew was redacted by the USFS to a point the documents were useless to the ADOSH’a investigation. Is protecting the USFS more important than learning what really happened? In my opinion this information may help prevent the loss of life in future fires. The Blue Ridge crew were the closet resources to the Granite Mountain crew. It appears to me that valuable information may be gained , it appears that the USFS puts politics in front of lives.
6. Why did Air Tactical Group Supervisor ATGS Rory Collins refused to provide information to the ADOSH. Again, is this the policy of the USFS. ALL other agency’s cooperated with ADOSH investigators.
7. June 29, @ 1743 WHY DID THE TYPE 4 IC (Shumate) Refuse the Very Large Air tanker VLAT?? When VLAT is very effective in this type of terrain and fuels the VLAT was in Albuquerque NM, 1.5-2 hrs away. I understand it is easy to be a,”Monday-morning quarterback”. I am .just asking for the thought process.
8. June 29, 2013 Three Hot Shot crew were ordered the Blue Ridge and Granite Mountain arrived but Arroyo Grande IHC never made it to the fire. Why? At what TIME was this information learned? When did this crew get replaced by another Hot Shot crew?
9. June 30, @ 0700, Why was Granite Mountain Superintendent (Eric Marsh) assigned as Division A Supervisor? Region 3 Type 2 Incident Management team comes with at least 6 division supervisor on the initial order. Note: the fire was in the 4th operational period when the burn over happened.
10. June 30, 1022hrs Transfer of command from Shumate to Hall type 2 IC. Type 2 short now in control of the fire WITHOUT a PLANNING SECTION CHIEF, SAFETY OFFICER, and a team of DIVISION SUPERVISORS. Is this standard practice? A type 2 short team at the minimum has Command and general staff, the planning chief and Safety Officer are part of this structure. How can they announced over the radio that the Type 2 short team has command of the fire without these key players in place? Is it possible that this could give a false level of understanding of the incident management team that is in place.
11. At the time the Type 2 SHORT team assumed command of the fire, what other resource of the incident management team that were ordered had NOT checked in by June 30, @1022hrs?
12. June 30, 2016, 13hours – Why did Division Z Group Supervisor (Marquez) leave the fire and never return? Usually adjoining divisions rely on each other for Intel on changing conditions, resources, etc. I would consider it abandonment of position. I feel that his abandonment of his division would put divisions on both sides at an increased risk. Who was the Div Sup for Div Z once Marquez abandoned his division? How many crews were engaged without a Div Sup once he left? Has an investigation/disciplinary actions been taken towards Marquez for his abandonment of position? Is he still a card carrying Div Sup? Has he been a division sup on a fire in the last 2,5 years?
13. June 30, @1558 hrs ATGS Collins abruptly leaves then fire and goes to deer valley, turning air attack over to Bravo 33 who was busy dealing with lead planes duties. Who APPROVED this or was Collins just doing whatever he wants? Why did he refuse to cooperate with the investigation?
** ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS 2
1. Has the radio system and communication problems been resolved?
2. Why weren’t the radio problems that were experienced on Saturday corrected by the following day since the communication problems resulted in the GMH not retreating to safety as per the lookout’s instructions?
3. Have the emergency deployment shelters been improved to withstand greater heat than the 2,000 – 3,000*F that the GMH experienced?
4. Since the radio communication was not working properly on Saturday, why were the GMH allowed out on Sunday with faulty communication equipment?
5. How many calls respectively were received on Friday before the fire in the local fire departments of Congress, Yarnell, Peeples Valley, Wilhoit, Wickenburg, and Prescott when the fire was less than half an acre?
6. Why weren’t the fire departments listed in question 5 allowed to fight the fire on Friday when it was a small and manageable?
** END OF ‘ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS’ (1) AND (2)
More to come…
WTKTT,
as I was going through the list of questions from the families and reps, I couldn’t help being struck as to how close the questions listed were to questions that had been asked here on IM as a direct result of all the hard work that you all put in. I don’t think anyone could have come up with a set of detailed questions like that, without reading (and borrowing from) this discussion here on IM. So I think that is a small victory for IM and all contributors.
…now where’s the frickin answers? – this of course is rhetorical as I couldn’t find the answers in the released papers (as you have already stated – they aren’t there, no record, dim, zip, nada) – and we are not surprised.
Gary!!!!!
it’s good to see you back, in fine form it seems and still in one piece, despite your best efforts.
Thank you Otis! And I have vowed to change my ways, so there won’t be any more reports of broken Jeeps or ATV/UTV mishaps.
And yes…I think everyone who has contributed in even the slightest way to this thread can take some satisfaction from the fact that their efforts on this blog is the ONLY reason there is ANY clarity to the YHF. When I started reading through those questions, I actually thought I was reading the ones prepared by WTKTT for RTS to ask at the staff ride.
The forces arrayed against the Truth are many, powerful and very influential (and I’m afraid the movie won’t help one damn bit but it will make is easier for hotshots to pick up women or men in bars without explaining that yes…they are in fact elite WF but NOT smokejumpers because smokejumpers are well…) but I still have some hope that in the end the crew (including Eric Marsh) will be recognized that they were heroes BEFORE the fire and not because of anything that happened there.
I still believe that Marsh would want others to learn from his mistakes and not be left with the impression that anything he did on the YHF should ever be repeated by anyone; even to get their own foundation to promote WF safety or a movie about how gallantly they died.
Which is NOT a ridiculous notion is you understand the “Hero Syndrome” even a little bit and which is not uncommon with those who work in both law enforcement and fire. I investigated more than one arson fire that was actually started by fire fighters who could then be recognized as heroes for putting them out. And I know of several cases in law enforcement where officers actually shot themselves or did other things to become victims/heroes and achieve recognition and other rewards. Which reminds me, I am working up to a post to tell everyone some of my thoughts about Mr. McDonough formerly known as our hapless hero.
I think I understand Marsh’s shortcomings (dark side) and both the internal and external demons he fought because of my own experiences but I would still like to bitch (non-gender specific) slap him. And then give him and man hug and cry with him because I also understand how capable and extraordinarily gifted he was in many ways and how much he loved the crew he killed with the help of so many others.
Never mind the part about me working up to a post regarding Mr. McDonough…I think the Woodsman said it all up above.
WTKTT,
I agree with Otis that the quality of these questions is the direct result of open and unfettered discovery and analysis (f-bombs and all) that occurred here and elsewhere online. The next firefighter of the year award should go to John Dougherty for setting this in motion.
Some of the questions are “rhetorical” in the sense that we don’t expect answers from TPTB, but some are budgetary. I think it would be fun to run the numbers, keeping note of who was responsible for those costs as the various teams transitioned. I know you all are aware of these costs In a general sense and have referred to them, but I’ve never seen it laid out in columns and rows. Is there a place where these numbers can be found? Does NIFC keep track?
**
** TENDERFOOT FIRE UPDATE – AS OF MIDNIGHT
As of about Midnight… the Yarnell Tenderfoot Fire was still at 700+ acres, but winds have stayed favorable throughout the night.
Mild winds out of the SW… blowing the fire to the NE and AWAY from the town of Yarnell itself.
Backing fires are near roads and reachable with Type 6 Engines… and are under ( currently) under control.
Evacuations ceased around 9:00 PM… but whoever is left in town tonight apparently has no electricity or water and disrupted cellphone coverage.
BLM management says they will be hitting it with everything they have come DAWN.
Full-Monty ‘Air Show’ with VLATS, SEATS… more Engines than a 4th of July parade… and at least THREE Type 1 IHC crews.
So none of this Arizona-Forestry style cheap-ass “Let’s use the $1 per hour Type-2 prison crews that can’t even hike to the fire” response on Friday night… or the equally cheap-ass “Let’s use the retired guys and just the SHORT version” response for even the THIRD day of the original 2013 ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’.
And ( hopefully ) all THREE Type 1 IHC crews will also be there on time, this time, instead of just 1 being there for the 7:00 AM briefing ( Granite Mountain ), another 2 hours late and missing all the briefings ( Blue Ridge ) and the third never showing up at all just because their Chase truck took a shit ( Arroyo Hotshots ).
Lessons Learned?
Let’s see what tomorrow brings ( in Yarnell ).
Correction for the post above…
I said…
“So none of this Arizona-Forestry style cheap-ass “Let’s use the $1 per hour Type-2 prison crews that can’t even hike to the fire” response on Friday night… or the equally cheap-ass “Let’s use the retired guys and just the SHORT version” response for even the THIRD day of the original 2013 ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’.”
I didn’t mean to imply that the “Cheap $1 per hour Type-2 prison crews that couldn’t even hike to the fire” were actually USED on Firday night, after the lightning strike.
They were not.
The actual ‘cheap-ass’ approach that WAS used on Friday night ( when the fire was no bigger than a buick ) was to do NOTHING AT ALL.
But the DECISION to use the “Cheap $1 per hour Type-2 prison crews that couldn’t even hike to the fire” WAS made by Russ Shumate and Arizona Forestry that Friday night… and the “Cheap $1 per hour Type-2 prison crews that couldn’t even hike to the fire” WERE used the NEXT day… on Saturday, June 29, 2013.
Even then… with 40 ( FORTY ) “Cheap $1 per hour Type-2 prison crews that couldn’t even hike to the fire” right there at the Yarnell Fire Station by 8:00 AM Saturday morning… only SIX were initially sent up to actually do an work on the fire… and even that didn’t happen until later in the morning and HOURS after they arrived.
I’ve been watching news reports. I can’t say anything about the crews, but the reporter was standing in front of those impressive RV looking things and just behind her was an honest-to-God paper map taped on it. So it’s already better managed than the Yarnell Hill Fire.
If the ‘initial response’ that took place to a fire near Yarnell on June 29, 2013 had beared any resemblance to what happened YESTERDAY… we would not be here having this conversation.
There were SEATS and even a VLAT dropping on that fire yesterday even just a few hours after it was first reported.
There were actual Type 1 Hotshot Crews assigned even as the thing was still just in the ‘Initial Attack’ phase.
If even just ONE actual Type 1 Hotshot Crew had been assigned to Yarnell on Saturday, June 29, 2013 ( who, unlike the Type 2 DOC crews, WOULD have been able to just hike to the damn fire )… then we also would most likely not be here having this conversation.
So maybe yesterday was ( finally ) at least some PROOF that Arizona Forestry HAS, in fact, LEARNED something from the needless deaths of 19 firefighters on ‘their watch’.
Hope all are safe from the Tenderfoot fire near Yarnell.
Phoenix 12 NEWS
Breaking News: Homes evacuated near Yarnell for Tenderfoot fire
http://www.12news.com/news/local/arizona/homes-evacuated-near-yarnell-for-tenderfoot-fire/237586865
The FIRE is 25-30 acres right now… just EAST of Yarnell… at Highway 89 and Mina Road.
—————————————————————–
Fire crews say this is an active fire near SR 89 and Mina with some homes in the area.
The blaze is currently burning 25 to 30 acres on the north side of Yarnell.
Dwight Develyn of the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office said that YCSO is currently in the town of Yarnell conducting evacuations along the east side of Yarnell.
Fire fighters and one fire engine from the Town of Congress and two engines from Yarnell are currently working the fire on the ground. One small air tanker and an air attack helicopter are at scene at this time, according to officials.
—————————————————————–
‘Sky 12’ NEWS Helicopter is over Yarnel and over the fire right now… and sending pictures. Flames are already down into the scrub oak and Manzanita. Some structures already burned… others threatened…
http://www.scoopnest.com/user/12News/740710758368088064
Here is the scanner feed.
http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/15199/web
Thank you.
Cell tower EAST of Yarnell has burned. No coverage there.
Power is out all over Yarnell and it is getting DARK.
Yavapai County Public Safety – Live Audio Feed Web Player
http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/15199/web
Fire crews saying that SEVERAL cell towers around Yarnell have been damaged already by this Tenderfoot Fire.
2 minutes ago…
Tenderfoot Fire now at over 400 acres.
NWCG’s INCIWEB page for the Yarnell ‘Tenderfoot Fire’…
http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4773/
BLM is listed as the ‘lead’ agency now so it’s already FEDERAL JURISDICTION.
Some ongoing ‘Scanner traffic’ ( Times are AZ local time )…
7:42 PM
* You want us to bring engine 52 down to south side, Dollar General?
* That’s a good copy.
7:46 PM
* Dispatch.. 52…
* Go ahead 52…
* Call my wife and tell her where I’m at. We’re gonna be out here for a while. Cellphones are out.
* Copy.
‘Sky 12’ Helicopter VIDEO footage not online as it arrived over Yarnell and started filming the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’.
This footage is from a little over an hour ago.
Looks eerily like some aerial footage from June 30, 2013…
http://www.12news.com/news/local/arizona/time-lapse-sky-12-shows-smoke-from-the-tenderfoot-fire/237703373
Whoops… TYPO… meant to type ‘NOW’ instead of ‘not’…
‘Sky 12’ Helicopter VIDEO footage is NOW online as it arrived over Yarnell and started filming the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’.
http://www.12news.com/news/local/arizona/time-lapse-sky-12-shows-smoke-from-the-tenderfoot-fire/237703373
INCIWEB page update from 1 minute ago…
http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4773/
Tenderfoot Fire – Yarnell, Arizona
Approximate 400 acre grass and brush fire. Air and ground resources on scene. 1 structure lost. Evacuations in progress, human and animal evacuation shelter is located at Yavapai College in Prescott. Media staging area located at Peeples Valley School.
As of 30 minutes ago… now 600-700 acres and at least 3 structures burned so far…
http://www.dcourier.com/news/2016/jun/08/wildland-fire-burning-near-yarnell/
UPDATE – It’s looking BAD in Yarnell.
50+ foot flame lengths. It’s down in the Manzanatia and Scrub Brush ‘bowls’ ( again ) and BLOWING UP ( again ).
WEST side of Yarnell is now also being evacuated.
Basically the whole town, now.
Latest photos ( from just minutes ago )…
See the RIGHT side of the page… ( Wow! )..
.
http://www.scoopnest.com/user/12News/
Usual suspects ‘in charge’ Arizona Forestry and BLM.
I hope they get them OUT of the picture right away and just go ‘Type 1’ immediately.
Followup…
Photos just posted on the RIGHT side of the following ‘Breaking News’ site already look like late afternoon on June 30, 2013, as fire was coming into Yarnell…
http://www.scoopnest.com/user/12News/
We’ll see how many folks heeded THEIR Lessons Learned from the 2013 YH Fire and did anything to actually FireWise their properties for structure defense.
OR… if the fucking Yarnell Hill Fire Department improved.
As of now… no lightning strikes… and fire was first reported at 3:30 PM as 1-2 acres.. near a structure ( which I believe then became the first one destroyed ).
Oops.. I forgot.
The original debacle that started on June 28, 2013, and turned into the GBITHOWFF ( Greatest Blunder In The History Of Wildland Firefighting ) wiped out most of the TAX BASE to even support a local fire department… so no… it would be no surprise at all if the Yarnell Hill Fire Department was even less capable of handling this one as they were the other one.
We shall see ( what really happened here ).
I interrupt this serious discussion for some more quirkiness. I had a question about the piece of offending driftwood that actually caused me to catch a few feet of air which is NOT an easy thing to do in a 1600 pound machine.
This is a photo of it. And I think you can see from the discoloration line on it why it was so easy for me to miss, about 1/5 th of it was buried in the sand. I was actually thinking about cleaning the fog off my googles shortly before I hit it. Thank goodness I hit it with the front reinforced bumper or I might have hurt my machine. That thing is like Sonny…it can take a lickin’ and keep on tickin’.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
And to all of you haters out there. Doesn’t the quirkiness of Joy and I make this blog just a little bit more interesting after three years? Just look at that photo of the ocean! Your welcome.
And on a more serious note…this kind of memory and millions of others similar to it are what was stolen from the crew and all of those who loved them by Darrell Willis and everyone else who are responsible for Eric Marsh being put in charge of the crew even though they knew better or SHOULD have known better.
And to all of you WF out there who are not dead yet and who are reading this blog, this is what you can look forward to in retirement if you don’t fuck up really bad, or let someone fuck up for you really bad.
So…don’t fuck up really bad..Pretty cool…right?
AND follow the WFF Rules AND stay in the safe black.
NOBODY forced them to leave the safe black!
Nobody forced Eric Marsh and someone(s) above him to order the crew out of the black, but the hotshot culture (discipline, cohesiveness, trust, etc.) what is the right word…obligated (maybe) the crew to do what hotshot crews do (other than yours and Bob’s) follow those who have earned their respect and support, their squad bosses and their crew boss. If something works right hundreds of thousands of times right, you (or at least I do and did at least) go with it without questioning the logic behind it.
I think what we are doing is what mental health experts would call a circular argument that is between Bob, you…and me. The only thing we don’t know, is who will walk away first. What we do know…is that we will never change each other’s minds.
And I am going to tell you something else Mr. Second…that has been on my mind ever since you called me a sycophant! You must have been on all of the complex fires during the 10 years we overlapped as hotshots and I must have gone on all of the really simple ones. And on the fires we were on in common, the Murdock Basin Fire for one, you must have been on the complex sectors and divisions and I must have been on all of the simple ones because I don’t remember a single time I thought, “I think this situation could be made a whole lot better if we just sat down as a crew and rapped it out.”
Just about ninety-nine percent (99%) of the time (excluding a shift or two of mop up while the fire team waited to see if we had really caught the fire or it had stopped on its own) we cut hand line. And when that didn’t work, we cut some more hand line
I mean…here is what we almost always did as a crew. We got to the fire; we found a place where we could anchor our hand line, a road, rock slide, meadow, river or stream, trail etc. We started on the flank that had the most potential to spread or the greatest danger to the most valuable resource if we had a choice. We either constructed a scratch line if the fire was getting away and we had a chance to catch it, or a good three foot line down to mineral soil if the fire had already done got away. And if we were cutting an under slung line we trenched it and the steeper the slope, the deeper we cut the trenches and the higher we build the berms. We kept one foot in the black unless we could cut off some fingers and burn them out to save a lot of wasted time and energy. While we were cutting hand line, we watched for slop over or spot fires below us…especially spot fires below us by sending out patrols and posting lookouts. In general, we cut hand line and burned it out, or cut hand line and back fired it or we cut hand line and burned it out and back fired it. If that didn’t work we cut some more hand line until we encircled the fire and then we cold trailed it and mopped up X chains in from the line. In short…we removed one of the three elements that are necessary for a fire to burn which are…fuel, oxygen and heat. We mostly concentrated on separating the fuel from the heat source because we were a hotshot crew. They call this the fire triangle.
While I was the second to the last shovel on squad II, and I think we can agree that is the LEAST important position on a hotshot crew, I concentrated on what was in front of my shovel. Not on how fast I moved or on how much I took, the first Pulaski and last shovel determined that for me. When I was the first Pulaski on squad I, I concentrated on what was in front of my Pulaski and how fast the crew line worked (the tempo) while the last shovel told me and everyone else to take more or to take less. When I was a sawyer, I concentrated on what was in front of my saw and took care not to drop a tree on anyone else as our crew sawyers did to me on the Indian Fire of 1976 on the Los Padres N.F. It was at night, they were up slope and I was the lead Pulaski for the crew so it was an understandable mistake. The trunk missed me and they cut the branches off me and pulled me from underneath it so we all had a good laugh. All I got out of the deal was some cuts and bruises and a big fucking dent in my hard had from a big limb. While I was the squad boss for squad II, I concentrated on what my squad was doing, in a nutshell…I looked after their safety and work production and then it was the same thing more or less when I was the squad boss of squad I, except I took over for the crew boss in his absence. Once I was the crew boss, I concentrated on the safety and work production of my crew and what was happening on our piece of the line on our sector in our division.
I let the sector boss worry about the rest of the sector, the division boss worry about the entire sector, the line boss worry about the entire line and the fire boss worry about the entire fire. I let the plans chief worry about the overall plan, the finance chief worry about our fire time reports, the logistics chief worry about how we got to the fire, the line, or back to fire camp and then to the next fire or back home. I let the supply chief worry about our sack lunches or rats, and resupplying us with whatever we needed etc. so on and so forth. In short…I did my job and left everybody else alone to do theirs. I think they call it a division of responsibility and a chain of command…or something like that.
And never once did I think, “I am just full of good ideas on how everybody could do their fucking jobs on this squad, crew, sector, division, line or fire better if they would just ask for my opinions.” Now…if I was hard pressed I probably could have come up with SOME ideas for them like…call in the honey wagons about four times as often as they did so I didn’t have to wait to get to the line to take care of my business, or get some boot warmers because there just wasn’t room for me and my size 15 Whites with 12 inch tops inside my paper sleeping bag with me, or not to use thin white bread on the mystery meat sandwiches, especially down on the fucking Tonto N.F. were they froze them and by the time they thawed out on hot rocks they were nothing but white goo. And I do want to say whoever came up with the idea to issue the individual tents was a genius instead of getting in rolls of plastic two days AFTER it started raining.
I can also tell you one more thing. When I was the second to the last shovel on squad II and had they asked my opinion about what we should do to fight a fire as hotshots? I would have replied, “Let’s get got to the fire; find a place where we can anchor our hand line, a road, rock slide, meadow, river or stream, trail etc. Let’s start on the flank that has the most potential to spread or the greatest danger to the most valuable resource if we have a choice. Let’s either construct a scratch line if the fire was getting away and we have a chance to catch it, or a good three foot line down to mineral soil if the fire has already done got away. And if we cut an under slung line we should trench it and the steeper the slope, the deeper we should cut the trenches and the higher we should build the berms. Let’s keep one foot in the black unless we can cut off some fingers and burn them out to save a lot of wasted time and energy. While we are cutting the hand line, let’s watch for slop over or spot fires below us…especially spot fires below us by sending out patrols and posting lookouts. In general, I think we should cut hand line and burn it out, or cut hand line and back fire it or we should cut hand line and burn it out and back fire it. If that doesn’t work, let’s we cut some more hand line until we encircle the fire and then we should cold trail it and mop it up X chains in from the line. In short…we need to remove one of the three elements that are necessary for a fire to burn which are, fuel, oxygen and heat. I think as a hotshot crew, we are most suited to concentrate on separating the fuel from the heat source. We call this the fire triangle.
Pretty fucking simple, oh except for one more thing…let’s NOT work above an uncontrolled wildfire because well…you know, that’s how hotshots get burned alive.
Ahhhh…. the smell of BRAND NEW Field Packs, hadn tools, and flagging tape…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGVkrxtETyC/?hl=en
I hope they are actually going to smear at least a LITTLE ‘dirt’ on these puppies, and at least chip a little of the paint on all the hand tools before they start filming.
And the 4 STIHLs look like they still have the stickum labels on them that say…
“Fuel/Oil mixture goes HERE —>>>”
“Bar Oil goes HERE —->>>”
Notice, in the photo, how careful Josh Brolin was to make sure and NOT show the faces of any of the “Technical Advisors” who were obviously standing right there telling the actors…
“This is backpack. The straps go over your shoulders”.
To Gary Olson
You actually may be running a close second to Len Biddison who became the Chilao Superintendent Angeles National Forest, in 1951 my sources say at the age of 22.
Still you did well at 23.
Len set the Bar Many times over his Carrier in many Fire fields in the FS. He truly was a Fire God.
Lynn Biddison was promoted to Chilao superintendent mid-season 1951. He was born in 1927. He was drafted in 1945. He was 24 when he became Chilao Supe 1951-1927 = 24; he certainly could not have been 22 years old at the time.
So your sources are wrong and I’m not sure why any of this matters other than some chest beating of 2 old guys. I guess I joined in order to practice for the future of my ‘old guyness.’.
Woodsman
No I was just told that by a old Chilao HS you have better info than me.
I knew Lynn was young at the time. My friend sent the message to me after Garys last statement. ———– So Gary still holds his distinction.
Lynn went to work as a Crewman in 1949 for Chilao, 1950 as one of the Foreman 30 Man Crew and Superintendent 1951. Based on what I have,
Thanks for the Info Woodsman some day you will be here be kind to us old farts.
Copy that. Bob. Give me your source’ name so I can ream him directly. Nah, that’s not what it’s all about. It’s cool. Keep on doing what you do. You spent a long damn time in the FS. That’s something I respect & you should be proud of. I’m getting older fast so don’t worry.
Mr. Biddison’s career was long & amazing. I salute that guy.
Thanks, Bob.
Woodsman
He and his wife were actually a close friend of my Step Dad and Mother and I knew him fairly early in my carrier.
Bob,
Yes…Lyn Biddison was certainly a great fire god of the first order and a legend in WF history. And in spite of my unbridled hubris I was never anything more than a grunt (and damn proud of it as you know) and a sycophant (as Fred has called me) to the fire gods myself until I found out that all of them (including my own personal favorite…Bill Buck) had, and continue to have…feet of clay.
In fact…I am now finding out through the process derisively known as the IM Blog to many…that ALL of the fire gods of today are made of nothing more than clay. I am still waiting for one to show up somewhere…anywhere, who is NOT made of nothing more than clay.
Although I did know Duggar Hughes back in the day and he was a pretty good guy, but the Duggar I knew was a really a live wire and I have a hard time imagining him as a Type I Incident Commander. But then again, he probably has a hard time imagining me as Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Sr. Special Agent) working for a Washington D.C. Office. I don’t think I knew him when either one of our brains had finished maturing yet.
And make no mistake…whether Lyn Biddison or I was the YOUNGEST hotshot crew boss in WF history (and it certainly appears that yes…indeed I was, at least so far…so fuck off) that boast is kind of like Babe Ruth’s stats, they have an asterisk beside them. And I never should be compared to Lyn Biddison in the same sentence. You mock his memory by doing so.
NOBODY could possibly be promoted to that position today because of the extensive experience that would be required of a hotshot crew boss applicant of today. Three seasons as a hotshot in my case (even though I had held every position on a hotshot crew during my rapid rise up the ranks), that wouldn’t even make it through the first cut in today’s WF world…and it shouldn’t. And as I have admitted before, my rapid rise as a hotshot was primarily due to one thing and one thing only, The job, especially back then…really sucked and there was a very high turnover rate.
I used to joke, even at the time, that the biggest difference between my hotshot crews during my first few years as a crew boss and a Boy Scout Troop was….a Boy Scout Troop has adult leadership. It was probably touch and go for my crews a few times during my first years and maybe for a few times for my later crews. We fought fire AGGRESSIVELY….but provided for safety first. You and your Bitch (non gender specific) Master, Fucked Up Fred would have gotten ash in your manginas after your first fire with me and you would have been cut from my crew.
Guess what? That is why I was made a crew boss in the first place on the Mighty Coconino which had a hyper hotshot program on steroids at such a young age. That’s the way the WF world I knew fought fire…and I never saw anything different. I still think you and Fucked Up Fred were and are the anomalies…not me and those I knew back in the day.
That is why what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire is so fucking OUTRAGEOUS and off all of the known fucking CHARTS and why everyone had to re-calibrate all of the “OH FUCK ME METERS”…that incident should NEVER have happened at any time…especially in this day and age of awareness and enlightenment.
ERIC MARSH was a TRAIN WRECK looking for a place to happen and he found it on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And even though Eric “Train Wreck” Marsh is DEAD…all of those who are responsible (and you know who you are) for him even being in that position are NOT DEAD and should be prosecuted for conspiracy to commit MURDER, second degree murder since they lacked MALICE aforethought (premeditation)…I think.
So don’t let my foolish boast get under your skin you stupid old man…I am just fucking with you and Fred and all of the NEILLS of this world because I am one of you…and no matter how hard you try, you can’t disavow me…my WF resume speaks for itself. What I think about the Yarnell Hill Fire matters. What WTKTT thinks (not everything he thinks, but a really high percentage) matters a lot more, but he is easy to dismiss as NEILL and so many others have done. I am NOT so easy to ignore, even though so many are trying so hard to do so.
Gary,
Gary,
Thanks for the Basic WFF Refresher. Was that for my benefit or for you, since you and your two separate HS Crews never really achieved much production using the tactics and strategy you talked about.
You posted: “Nobody forced Eric Marsh and someone(s) above him to order the crew out of the black, but the hotshot culture (discipline, cohesiveness, trust, etc.) what is the right word…obligated (maybe) the crew to do what hotshot crews do (other than yours and Bob’s) follow those who have earned their respect and support, their squad bosses and their crew boss. If something works right hundreds of thousands of times right, you (or at least I do and did at least) go with it without questioning the logic behind it.”
Bullshit! The ‘Crew’ and particularly the ‘Crew’ supervisors, Marsh and Steed were OBLIGATED to keep their ‘Crew’ safe. The ultimate responsibility of all WFF supervisors is the SAFETY AND WELFARE OF THOSE THEY SUPERVISE. PERIOD! Nothing else matters.
Those Rookie and fairly inexperienced GMHS trusted and respected their leaders, because they didn’t know any better. However, there were many of them that KNEW what they were doing was wrong and unsafe and more and followed them anyway. They were taking a fatal ‘Trip to Abilene.’ Because they were told by some frickin moron that it was Easter!
Roxanne Warneke, stated “”I had remembered a saying that my husband had once told me when we were deer scouting two years before. He said to never go into a canyon. That inside a canyon would be thick brush, and how wind travels through a canyon. I know my husband’s military and firefighter training. Descending into that canyon went against everything he had ever been taught … I was enraged. …. Warneke said she believes her husband would only have abandoned a safe ridge and hiked into danger if he was directed to do so. “ORDERS,” she explained. “HE WAS A MARINE WHO WAS USED TO FOLLOWING ORDERS.” (azcentral.com June 30, 2015 at 1011 MST)
During the YHF Family Staff Ride at Stand 5, on the high ridge (mid slope) road, I mentioned that at that point, Groupthink was likely occurring amongst the GMHS. She said her husband Billy would have been the one leading a group to stay in the safe black and not follow everyone else down into the unburned chutes and chimneys and bowl.
Because you practiced and fostered the ‘My Way Or The Highway’ management method, I know it’s difficult for you to comprehend any other way of fighting fire. There were then and there are now, scores of really good, competent, efficient, and safe WFF Supervisors, WFF’s, and Crews that practice the Team Member method compared to your Team Player method.
You posted: ‘… I don’t remember a single time I thought, “I think this situation could be made a whole lot better if we just sat down as a crew and rapped it out.”’
I’m guessing you all practiced the traditional ‘Progressive Line Construction’ method of building fireline, where everyone ‘takes a lick’ with their tool and moves along. It works in theory and is terribly unproductive, so we designed our own, more productive method of building fireline. Depending on fire behavior, small modules (‘mods’) with a Saw Team and a few Diggers/Scrapers would complete their entire section of handline, then leap-frog with the other mods. It was MUCH QUICKER and MUCH more efficient and used by many Crews today!
We didn’t ‘rap’ anything out. That’s just one of your many ways of ridiculing those that disagree with you. We trained to think and act independently and then to coalesce into a Crew and/or Team to perform accordingly as professionals. It was sometimes challenging to manage a Crew that way, however, it is very safe and effective.
You posted: “… Just about ninety-nine percent (99%) of the time (excluding a shift or two of mop up while the fire team waited to see if we had really caught the fire or it had stopped on its own) we cut hand line. And when that didn’t work, we cut some more hand line.”
About 80% of the time, we knew their plan was not going to work, suggested much more successful option(s) accordingly, and then when ‘they’ didn’t heed our suggestions, we proceeded to scout and/or drag our feet, KNOWING the fire was going to defeat their plans. We got that about correct about 99% of the time.
Surely, you recall that we could then and still today, refuse assignments that were UNSAFE, ILLEGAL, IMMORAL, or UNETHICAL.
Sometimes, based on the ‘Stupid Rule,’ we had to do as ‘they’ asked just to prove to them their plan would not work. THEN, ‘they’ accepted our aforementioned ‘option(s).’
It appears you don’t take kindly to people disagreeing with you, and that you prefer to have them grovel and praise you with accolades. So, yes, you are correct, you would have kicked me off your Crew(s) because I would have told you and others that you were full of shit about it being Easter when it was not.
I contend that you basically managed your Crew(s) following the dangerous Groupthink and Abilene Paradox models of leadership, and got away with it for all those years.
We encouraged our Hot Shots to think critically and think for themselves and follow orders if and when they made sense. NOT because some moron told them it was Easter and to start looking for the Easter Bunny and eggs.
You posted: “I think what we are doing is what mental health experts would call a circular argument that is between Bob, you…and me. The only thing we don’t know, is who will walk away first. What we do know…is that we will never change each other’s minds.”
I had to do some research on your mental health circular argument comment since I was only familiar with logical fallacy of Circular Reasoning, which is different. I am always willing to change my mind if someone can come up with a better idea, ya know, like the build a better mouse trap thing. It boils down to agreeing to disagree.
You concluded with this post: “We call this the fire triangle. … Pretty fucking simple, oh except for one more thing…let’s NOT work above an uncontrolled wildfire because well…you know, that’s how hotshots get burned alive.”
That’s how SOME “hotshots get burned alive.”
It’s perfectly okay to work above an uncontrolled wildfire but ONLY IF you know, understand, and follow the Fire Orders and know, understand, recognize, and mitigate the Watch Out Situations. The fire always signals to you what it’s going to do, and so, a competent and safe Crew knows when it’s time to leave and seek refuge in a safe area. We and others – then and now – safely and efficiently work(ed) above fires a lot. No big deal following The WFF Rules.
The “hotshots” and others that got burned alive, i.e. Morman Lake, South Canyon WFF’s including Hot Shots, Smokejumpers, and Helitack, and Granite Mountain, did NOT follow The Tried-And-Trued Basic WFF Rules. And many of them paid for it with their lives.
The WFF Rules work every single time. If these men would have followed them instead of the leaders that told them it was Easter, they’d be alive today.
I have NO problem letting what you say or post get under my skin. Yes, you are one of us WFF. Definitely not trying to disavow you, just some of the things you post. Yes, your resume does speak for itself, but mostly with Law Dog credentials.
Kudos to you for being the youngest HS Superintendent. Other than that, well …
RTS,
Well, you trained them with your new age thinking, Where did you go wrong? How do you reconcile that?
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Trained who with my “new age thinking? WTF are you talking about?
What is “new age thinking?”
I loathe New Age anything, so how/why would I train someone in it.
“Where did you go wrong? How do you reconcile that?” Once again WTF are you talking about?
So, now it’s my fault the GM HS died? WTF?
“About 80% of the time, we knew their plan was not going to work, suggested much more successful option(s) accordingly, and then when ‘they’ didn’t heed our suggestions, we proceeded to scout and/or drag our feet, KNOWING the fire was going to defeat their plans. We got that about correct about 99% of the time.”
Sounds like Marsh’ way of thinking. ‘I know better than everyone else out here and I’m going to make sure their plan fails so I can do it MY WAY which is what ‘they’ should have done in the first place if ‘they’ had only listened to me. Hubris.
“Those Rookie and fairly inexperienced GMHS trusted and respected their leaders, because they didn’t know any better. However, there were many of them that KNEW what they were doing was wrong and unsafe and more and followed them anyway.”
Either they didn’t know any better or they did. Which is it? Have you decided yet? They knew. They didn’t know. Pick one.
Groupthink, trip to Abilene. blah, blah, blah. Marines! JROTC! Stay out of canyons when your hunting. That’s it! Orders! Wait…orders? Who? When? What? Orders from above? You mean like: “get your ass down to Yarnell and help save the town” kind of orders?
Woodsman
RTS,
Oh wait, you just gave us a clue. Blue Ridge was scouting and dragging their feet on purpose? Because they were convinced ‘the plan’ was not going to work? Do you believe that they offered an alternative? If so, will you tell us what that alternative plan was?
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You really don’t read much on Leadership, Human Factors, Human Error, Military, or Aviation and Avalanche mishaps, do you? Sounds like maybe you choose to be intentionally ignorant.
Here is one from The Netherlands studying aircraft mishaps. The principles are the same. There are plenty more on all the above topics.
https://essi.easa.europa.eu/documents/HFreportfinal_000.pdf
You posted: “Sounds like Marsh’ way of thinking. ‘I know better than everyone else out here and I’m going to make sure their plan fails so I can do it MY WAY which is what ‘they’ should have done in the first place if ‘they’ had only listened to me. Hubris.”
WTF are you talking about? Hubris had nothing to do with it for me.
“ME, I’M going to make sure THEIR plan fails.” Are you kidding me? THEIR plans ALWAYS failed on their own, and we/I didn’t have anything to do with it. How can I/we MAKE their plans fail?
As HS Supts., we think like OPS, even though we were only a Crew Boss or Single Resource Boss with DIVS and no TFLD qualifications as well.
Do you want me to give you specific examples? I have scores of them if you do. Really, all you have to do is read the many SAFENETS filed every fire season about Overhead making really bad decisions,
I/we ALWAYS made several good, cogent, sound options to their weak plans, bound to fail, ON THEIR OWM, without any help from me.us. Are you telling me that you cannot listen to an operational plan or see it on a map and KNOW, just KNOW that it is gonna fail? Are you kidding me? Do you have a problem with that?
You claim to be a DIVS, so do you accept and follow through every plan OPS and/or Branch presents to you? Do you get pissed when your TFLD, STLD, and/or Single Resource Bosses suggest viable, safe options to you on your proposed plans or those from above?
I posted: “Those Rookie and fairly inexperienced GMHS trusted and respected their leaders, because they didn’t know any better. However, there were many of them that KNEW what they were doing was wrong and unsafe and more and followed them anyway.”
Which got you all flustered and you commented: “Either they didn’t know any better or they did. Which is it? Have you decided yet? They knew. They didn’t know. Pick one.”
There is ALWAYS a excess of attitudes, personalities, and thought processes in every group of people. Hot Shot Crew personalities are even more intense. What is so difficult about saying that the rookies and inexperienced GMHS didn’t know any better, so they trusted their supervisors?
Some of them did not know any better and some of them did know better. Why is that so hard to accept? The fact remains, they all left the good black, didn’t they?
Likewise, what is so difficult about accepting “there were many of them that KNEW what they were doing was wrong and unsafe and more and followed them anyway?”
And really pissed off, you posted: “Groupthink, trip to Abilene. blah, blah, blah. Marines! JROTC! Stay out of canyons when your hunting. That’s it! Orders! Wait…orders? Who? When? What? Orders from above? You mean like: “get your ass down to Yarnell and help save the town” kind of orders?”
The final sentence ‘orders; if you will, would have been Marsh’s decision, not the GMHS.
Do you deny that Groupthink is an accepted psychological phenomenon in Human Factor studies, particularly endemic amongst small, tight, cohesive units?
Do you deny that the Abilene Paradox is an also an accepted and recognized psychological phenomenon regarding Human Factors? This differs from Groupthink in that the Abilene Paradox is characterized by an inability to manage agreement.
You don’t get it do you, and you don’t want to accept it, do you that they all went down there on their own as a group? NOBODY held any guns to their heads literally or figuratively.
You just can’t stand it that Marines are used to following orders, can you? And that was LIKELY a Human Factor that affected their fatal decisions? You’re living in denial.
The man’s wife gets it. She completely understood that the only way that her husband would have left the safe black was if he was ordered to do so. He was a Marine and he followed orders, she said.
He was also a Marine that cared about the men in his unit and on his Team and Crew, and he clearly understood the morality of obeying stupid orders, orders with high risk and high potential for losses. His wife told me he would have been the one leading the others to stay put, in the black.
And yes, he can do both, and he did,
What about the new age thing. what happened to that, where is your support for that one?
RTS,
I’m not going to tell you what I think about you and hurl insults because what I think about you is not relevant to the conversation. It’s also not productive to the task at hand of learning the truth about Yarnell Hill and prevention of future occurrences.
When you said:
“About 80% of the time, we knew their plan was not going to work, suggested much more successful option(s) accordingly, and then when ‘they’ didn’t heed our suggestions, we proceeded to scout and/or drag our feet, KNOWING the fire was going to defeat their plans. We got that about correct about 99% of the time.”
And you followed with:
“ME, I’M going to make sure THEIR plan fails.” Are you kidding me? THEIR plans ALWAYS failed on their own, and we/I didn’t have anything to do with it. How can I/we MAKE their plans fail? ”
My point is this: You suggested that you start your work as a hotshot crew where 80% of the time you were convinced that ‘the plan’ was going to fail. Because you were convinced that 80% of the time (and were only wrong 1% of the time, I might add) ‘the plan’ was going to fail and management rejected your alternatives, instead of aiming for success while following the firefighting rules, YOU HAD YOUR CREW DRAG ITS FEET AND SCOUTED or whatever. I’m reading this to mean that by utilizing this strategy, you helped insure ‘the plan’ would fail 99% of the time. You certainly didn’t contribute to its success, right? (1% of the time, according to you, despite having your crew drag its feet, the plan succeeded) You were vested in its failure from the start 80% of the time.
Shouldn’t you have refused the assignment when you knew it would fail? I mean 1% of the time you were wrong – that’s pretty damn good! The suggestion that you were hardly ever, ever wrong smelled of hubris to me. We both know excessive pride has been a problem in the hotshot world.
Me, personally, would rather have an IHC TELL me up front that they are not vested in ‘the plan’ and instead of providing leadership and striving for success while following the rules of wildland firefighting, you are going to ‘drag your feet and scout or whatever’ while waiting for the plan to fail. As a supervisor that would be helpful information so that I can listen and understand why the IHC has this position. I’m interested in safe and effective use of all wildfire resources instead of wasting time or taking risks unnecessarily. I can tell you I always listen to IHC’s – always.
How bad has wildfire leadership been and for how long? Help me understand.
Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
IF their plans were valid and likely to succeed we certainly supported them and followed their plan(s).
How many times have you looked at a Shift Plan or IAP or been to a briefing where you knew there was a better way or that their plan was likely to fail? Many times I’m sure.
And what did you likely do? You likely modified it, with overhead consent and/or on your own AND ‘THE PLAN’ WORKED. Quite often, I’m sure.
But by doing this, what did you/we inadvertently do? We made sure a FAILED PLAN WORKED. We are doing the same with ‘THE SYSTEM.’
Rather than allowing it to fail, we are making a failed system work/succeed.
You go to the IMT or ‘them’ and ‘they’ say, “What’s the problem, it worked, didn’t it?” Well, of course it worked because you modified it from the likely to fail original plan.
You posted: “Shouldn’t you have refused the assignment when you knew it would fail? I mean 1% of the time you were wrong – that’s pretty damn good! The suggestion that you were hardly ever, ever wrong smelled of hubris to me. We both know excessive pride has been a problem in the hotshot world.”
We basically did refuse the assignments because we knew the chances of success were minimal and would unnecessarily jeopardize WFF lives.
NO WITH AN OPTION(S). ALWAYS WITH AN OPTION(S).
Yesterday, you posted: “Oh wait, you just gave us a clue. Blue Ridge was scouting and dragging their feet on purpose? Because they were convinced ‘the plan’ was not going to work? Do you believe that they offered an alternative? If so, will you tell us what that alternative plan was?”
Once again, WTF? Now it is the BRHS’ fault that the hapless GMHS made bad decisions and died as a result?
You’ll have to ask the BRHS what they were doing that day and what their intentions were.
I think it is safe to say there was some of what you allege going on, but no way to know without asking.
I think the BRHS knew ‘The Plan’ was likely to fail based on the weather and fire behavior, the Fire Orders, the numerous Watch Outs accumulating, and much more. It was a clusterf**k from the get-go.
Frisby and the BRHS were basically doing the job of the missing DIVS Z, Rance Marquez herding both WFF and private citizens along and then to safe areas.
RTS,
Thanks for the reply. It gives me a lot to think about. I’m more clear on what you’re saying.
Yes I’ve seen many a screwed operational shift plan printed in black & white on an IAP. I wish I saved some of them.
My gut says BR knew the entire time how f’ed up the whole deal was. That’s why their supervisors refused to commit their forces to a bullshit plan. I am speculating though.
Why did DIVZ walk away? The plan?
Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
He claimed he had no resources.
The IMT was behind the Power Curve from very early on, underestimating fire behavior and ROS, and you know what it’s like to get committed to a Plan that you know is NOT gonna work.
Hurling insults, ey. That bad?
I was just reminding myself not to tell you what I think of you because it’s not relevant. I figured if I type that out then I’ll stay on track. It wasn’t in reaction to anything you said to me so were good, bro.
Moving on:
What’s your position on filling overhead slots with hotshot supes? Should we be doing that?
Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Yes, of course we should keep doing it, especially on Type 4 and 3 fires, however, with some minor professional caveats.
First, it would be best, but not necessary to work in separate Divisions.
Second, strict radio discipline on Tactical, Air to Ground, and Command between Division and Crew, using TITLES, e.g. DIVS, Whomever HS,etc.,NOT names!
Third, Crew Net for Crew operations only. NO continual GMHS stealth BS. Occasional is okay.
What is your stance on this?
My stance is it takes away a key supervisory component of a hotshot crew and has been known to cause problems on incidents over the years, not the least of which is Yarnell Hill. IC’s should order the overhead they need instead of robbing resources from a hotshot crew. The cheap bastards.
In some people’s opinion, I’m sure my position is considered extreme – don’t do it.
If you had to do it as a last resort, I agree with your caveats but still not a good practice in my opinion.
Woodsman,
Like I said, for Type 4 and 3 fires, as an ad hoc resource until others are Resource ordered in.
RTS,
And robbing hotshot crews of their most valuable leadership resources has been a contributing factor in burnovers for quite some time, so it’s beyond time to end this practice…regardless of the complexity of the fire. My opinion is it has become standard practice and shouldn’t happen.
I already said (several times) being the youngest hotshot crew boss was just a fluke because of the high turnover rate and was probably NOT the best idea although I did run with it when presented with the opportunity. You know as well as anyone and better than most how much the job sucks, especially back then. And the mental part of the job is even harder to deal with than the physical part.
We even lived in a real barracks (at Happy Jack) where all of the beds were lined up in rows with no more than an arm’s length between each bunk with a military foot locker at the end of the bunk had all of our clothes in them with a military style open shower in another building. Crew cohesiveness was very important to enable us to function and stay together day after day 24/7 for months on end and yes…I did carry that with me to Santa Fe because that is how I had been taught and what I knew.
I actually wouldn’t have had to cut you or Bob…you would have just left on your own accord when you saw you didn’t fit into that program. If you hadn’t, the crew would have dismantled your bunks and put them outside the barracks with your footlockers. Our crews normally enforced their own standards. But that was rare…normally guys who couldn’t fit in just left on their own. We were all about fighin’ fire and makin’ money and oddballs who got in the way of those objectives were…problematic.
We did use the leap frog method as squads but not in modules smaller than that. It sounds like you and others developed better ways to do it and I would hope that better ways to fight fire have been found since I have been out of it…congratulations back at you.
We were the very definition of grunts, ground pounders, knuckle draggers with a group think mentality that we liked to think of as esprit de corps and crew cohesiveness. Group think was not a term I was familiar with until participating in this blog, but that is exactly what we did…and it worked very well for us …thank you. We came in together…fought the fire together…and left all in one piece (for the most part) together to go on the next fire
Your and Bob’s way…versus the way we did it argument has been going on and back and forth now for years and I am still waiting to find out from others who are hotshots out there if they think I am the anomaly or you and Bob were the anomalies. Nobody else has weighed in after all of this time which I find odd.
And please keep in mind…I didn’t create the system I espouse…I inherited and just thought that was the only way it was done until I met you and Bob here on this thread. And yes…it does sound like Eric Marsh ran his crew closer to the Coconino model of my day than the way you and Bob did things. Is that one reason why they died? I still don’t know but would like to find out.
AND…I never saw any problems with how we did things and nobody on the Santa Fe (management) had a problem with the way I did things either. In fact…as I have said before, I was specifically recruited into that job because that is exactly what they were looking for and I (and the other Happy Jack Hotshots who went to Santa Fe with me) delivered it to them and life was good.
And I still think you and some others are oversimplifying what I am trying to say without the nuances I always try to explain. It’s not that our crew members couldn’t or wouldn’t think for themselves…it’s just that they followed their crew leaders just as I did because the crew leaders knew better and that was the right thing to do. That is why they were the crew leaders.
Former hotshots I worked with have succeeded in just about every profession you can think of after their lives as hotshots, the list is long and impressive which I won’t take the time to list here. And when they were called upon by exigent circumstances, such as fragmentation of the crew structure, there was never a shortage of highly capable and intelligent leaders within our crews who were able to step forward and assume the role of leadership as the situation demanded and then return to their role as crew members to follow once again when that need was no longer present. “Well I don’t see, um– what exactly is the problem?” (The Big Lebowski)
Gary,
Thanks for the reply and I am pleased to hear that your Hot Shots went on to other – some in fire – very successful careers having worked for you.
And those Hot Shots carried on the Old School way of doing things. Once Hot Shot leadership fails to continue this tradition, the HS program will suffer, and it will be very difficult to get it back
Even though I did not work on the Coconino NF, I still respected and followed the leadership tenets of Bill Buck.
(second of five max posts for today 🙂 )
I wanted to add 6-5-16 link
http://ktar.com/player/?a=322233
The lone survivor from the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy, former Granite Mountain Hotshot, Brendan McDonough, remembers that fateful day, June 30, 2013
(third of five max posts for today ? and I am going to bed because I just got stung by scorpion; left pinkie, and in throbbing intense fire pain so night you all- )
http://deadline.com/2016/06/x-mens-archangel-ben-hardy-granite-mountain-movie-1201768167/
http://www.imdb.com/news/ni59915947?pf_rd_m=A2FGELUUNOQJNL&pf_rd_p=2494921022&pf_rd_r=14ENQYSNZJW0CY4PH5K1&pf_rd_s=center-5&pf_rd_t=15061&pf_rd_i=homepage&ref_=hm_nw_mv5
Jennifer Connelly … Amanda Marsh
Taylor Kitsch
Miles Teller
James Badge Dale
Josh Brolin
Jeff Bridges
Andie MacDowell
Scott Haze … Whitted
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 7, 2016 at 9:22 pm
http://deadline.com/2016/06/x-mens-archangel-ben-hardy-granite-mountain-movie-1201768167/
So ‘Ben Hardy’ is jumping into the ‘Hotshot’ pool.
In addition to the 11 ( ELEVEN ) that are already seen in the Group photo doing a ‘Crash Workout’ to get in shape at the Sante Fe, New Mexico, Crossfit facility… that still means they have 8 ( EIGHT ) Hotshot slots left to fill.
But perhaps the most important thing is this article is just more absolute confirmation that not only has the Production Company gotten ridden of the original GQ Magazine article title of “No Exit”… they also have gotten rid of original GQ article author Sean Flynn himself.
Sean Flynn is NO LONGER showing up as having ANYTHING to do with this movie.
From the article…
——————————————————
The screenplay was written by Ken Nolan ( Black Hawk Down, Transformers: The Last Knight ) and Eric Warren Singer ( American Hustle, Splinter Cell ).
——————————————————
So that basically makes it an absolute MYSTERY, now, what the script for this movie might actually look like.
If they have thrown author Sean Flynn and his original GQ magazine article “No Exit” completely ‘under the bus’… and just swapped in Josh Brolin’s friend Eric Singer as the new ‘co-writer’ for the screenplay… then there’s really no telling what the script for this thing ACTUALLY looks like.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 7, 2016 at 9:08 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I wanted to add 6-5-16 link
>>
>> http://ktar.com/player/?a=322233
>>
>> The lone survivor from the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy, former Granite Mountain
>> Hotshot, Brendan McDonough, remembers that fateful day, June 30, 2013
Here is a transcript from some of this 48-hour old radio interview given by
Brendan McDonough.
All I can say is… well… I really don’t know WHAT to say except it’s time someone got the Stage-Hook out and dragged this kid OFF the stage.
—————————————————————————————–
+2:35
Interviewer: Tell us a little bit about what Wildland Firefighters DO?
Brendan McDonough: So… ya know… the… the MAIN objective for US is… is the SAME as structure firefighters. Save lives. That’s a… that’s a BIG thing we have because right now we’re facing the urban interface. A huge… ya know… a huge dilemma. With what we’ve seen in Alberta, Canada this summer is… ya know… we lost sixteen hundred homes and… ya know… thank god we haven’t lost anybody yet.
+5:31
As the day unfolded… the storm had come in and the weather had started to change, and then, ya know, the winds had started to shift, which changed the direction of the fire… and so… we started to have homes threatened to the north… and then it was the northeast… and then the homes were burning IN town… ya know… and that’s when I left my lookout spot… right before then. And so… as… ya know… this fire just kinda SHIFTED… throughout the day… it really.. ya know… had a lotta SUPRISES for us. And… and… even in structural… there’s certain things that happen that we just can’t seem to comprehend… and that’s when… ya know… my… my brothers… for their reasons and for what they believed in… decided to leave their position… to try and get back to Yarnell.
+6:44
Some of the things we were basing our judgement off… ya know… wasn’t… wasn’t correct. And… for that… for that to be said… it’s… it’s humans. We… we… we make errors. So… we really struggle with… ya know… why… why did this happen. Something had to have gone wrong. Someone had to have made a mistake. And it’s not as much as someone made a mistake… it’s… it’s someone made a DECISION based on the information they had… and sometimes the information we have just isn’t enough… or it… or it’s not close enough to the timeframes and things like that. And we… we couldn’t expect it to burn as fast as it did… so… we… you know… we’re faced to be put in certain situations that we… in the beginning, you sign up for.
————————————————————————————————-
“…we couldn’t expect it to burn as fast as it did.”
Unbelievable.
Brendan McDonough…
“…sometimes the information we have just isn’t enough”
“…it really.. ya know… had a lotta SUPRISES for us.”
“…we couldn’t expect it to burn as fast as it did.”
Thompson Reuters News Service
Article Title: Investigators launch probe into death of 19 Arizona firefighters
Published: Monday, 1 July 2013 18:27 GMT
http://news.trust.org//item/20130701182746-21a6x?view=print
From the article ( written just the DAY AFTER the tragedy )…
————————————————————————
HOTSHOTS RECEIVED A WARNING FROM A BOW HUNTER
Evacuee Rick McKenzie, 53, a bow hunter and ranch caretaker, said the fire had “exploded” on Sunday, with flames 30 to 40 feet high (9 to 13 meters) racing across an area of oak and brush and that he had WARNED the Granite Mountain Hotshots about the dense oak woods where they would be working. “I said, ‘If this fire sweeps down the mountain to the lower hills where all this thick brush is, it’s going to BLOW UP, guys, you need to WATCH it,'” said McKenzie.
—————————————————————————-
**
** THE GM FAMILY MEMBERS’ SETTLEMENT-MANDATED Q/A DAY
**
** WHO THE FAMILY MEMBERS WANTED TO ATTEND THE MEETING
** TO ANSWER ALL OF THEIR QUESTIONS?
I’ll be focusing on the ‘secret’ Family Q/A day a little more… and so here is the actual LIST of people that were working the Yarnell Hill Fire that the Granite Mountain Family members told their attorneys they wanted to be REQUIRED to attend the Q/A day on February 5, 2016… and answer their questions.
The actual multi-multi-million dollar ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits against Arizona Forestry that were ‘settled’ included a ‘requirement’ that not only this Q/A day take place… but the settlement also gave the Family Members the absolute right to request WHO they wanted to be REQUIRED to be there to answer their questions.
Arizona Forestry was only able to get SOME of these people to attend the meeting.
This is the email that also contained that ‘plea’ from the family attorneys that Arizona Forestry reconsider allowing this person named ‘Holly Neill’ to be able to attend the Q/A meeting.
Arizona Forestry had refused since they were aware that Ms. Neill WAS known to be working with author John Maclean on a for-profit book about the Yarnell Hill Fire.
The family attorneys were ( in this email ) now asking Arizona Forestry to reconsider, and informing them that Ms. Neill had agreed to sign a ‘non-disclosure’ agreement, if necessary, in order to be able to attend the meeting.
There is no email in the records Arizona Forestry released responsive to the ‘GM Family Q/A meeting’ which indicates what Arizona Forestry’s final decision was regarding Ms. Neill… or whether she was ever actually allowed to attend the Q/A meeting.
—————————————————————————————–
From: Clark, Shannon L.
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 5:19 PM
To: Joy Hernbrode
Cc: Anthony Hancock; McGroder, Patrick J.
Subject: Q&A 2/5
Hi Joy:
Can you let me know who will be at the Q&A? My clients have requested the following, many of whom you don’tcontrol…
Paul Musser
Roy Hall
Russell Shumate
Byron Kimball
Todd Abel
Gary Cordes
Tony Sciacca
Brendan McDonough
Tom Cooley
Rance Marquez
Brian Frisby
Rogers Trueheart Brown
Thomas French
John Burfing
My understanding is that Abel will be there but Cordes will not.
They have also asked you to reconsider Holly Neil’s presence at the session. I’m told she’s not helping write the book ( has just done research ). But would like to attend as a member of the Wildland Fire Foundation and would agree to be bound by a confidentiality agreement/non disclosure. Think about it and let me know. Working on getting questions corralled.
Shannon
————————————————————————————-
NOTES…
Attorney ( for family members ) Shannon Clark was simply getting John Burfiend’s
name wrong ( she spelled it John Burfing ).
Gary Cordes apparently REFUSED to attend… as did Tony Sciacca.
Tony Sciacca did say he would meet PRIVATELY with any family, members, however.
NONE of the Blue Ridge Hotshots attended the meeting… even though GM family members specifically wanted at least BR Superintendent Brian Frisby and BR Assistant Superintendent ( Captain ) Trueheart Brown to attend.
There are other emails which indicate Brendan McDonough was never even invited to attend… because both parties changed their minds and decided they didn’t even WANT him there.
As unbelievable as it might sound… Arizona Forestry is not only claiming there is absolutely NO documentation regarding what ANY of the ANSWERS might have been to the GM family members QUESTIONS… there wasn’t even a document provided from the meeting which would indicate WHO was ACTUALLY THERE.
The closest we get ( documentation-wise ) is that LUNCH ORDER that was placed for the meeting.
According to just that document… the ONLY people from this list coming from the GM family members that actually DID ‘show up’ for the settlement-mandated Q/A day would be…
Paul Musser
Roy Hall
Byron Kimball
Todd Abel
That is ( apparently ) IT.
Just FOUR out of the original 14 ( FOURTEEN ) that were requested.
And here is Arizona Forestry Deputy Director ( Administration ) Joy Hernbrode informing Shannon Clark, attorney representing 12 of the family members of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots, that Yarnell Hill fire SAFETY OFFICER Tony Sciacca is REFUSING to attend the settlment-mandated Family Members ‘Question and Answer’ day…
———————————————————————–
From: Joy Hernbrode ( [email protected] )
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 11:57 AM
To: Clark, Shannon L.
Subject: RE: Sciacca
Shannon: I invited Tony and he does not want to attend.
He indicated that he would be willing to meet with folks individually if they want.
Sorry.
Joy
———————————————————————–
And here is Arizona Forestry Deputy Director ( Administration ) Joy Hernbrode demonstrating that she didn’t even have a fucking CLUE who ‘John Burfiend’ and ‘Thomas French’ even WERE.
She is reaching out to Arizona Forestry Dispatch Center Director Norval Tyler for help in even figuring out WHO they were… and WHAT they had to do with the Yarnell Fire.
———————————————————————————-
From: Joy Hernbrode
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 3:22 PM
To: Norval Tyler
Subject: Yarnell
Importance: High
Norval – Can you find out who Thomas French and John Burfing are, what position they had on Yarnell and who they work for?
This is kind of urgent, the families want them at the meeting and I can’t figure out who they are. Thanks!
Joy L. Hernbrode
Deputy Director, Administrative Services
Arizona State Forestry
1110 W. Washington St., Suite 100
Phoenix, AZ 85007
Direct: (602) 542‐4490
———————————————————————————-
11 minutes later… Norval Tyler then “gave her a clue”…
———————————————————————————-
From: Norval Tyler
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 3:33 PM
To: Joy Hernbrode
Subject: RE: Yarnell
Thomas French is a pilot with the USFS.
John Burfiend is an Air Tactical Group Supervisor with NAFRI .
They fly together as a Lead plane / Aerial Supervision Module.
Both are federal employees.
———————————————————————————-
Now get a load of THIS one.
Just THREE MINUTES ( Yes… that’s just 180 SECONDS ) after first even finding out ( from Norval Tyler ) who the hell ‘Thomas French’ and ‘John Burfiend’ even WERE… here is Joy Henrbrode firing back to Granite Mountain Family attorney Shannon Clark the ‘bad news’ that these 2 individuals would NOT be able to attend the Family Q/A day… as REQUESTED by the Family Members.
180 SECONDS.
Joy Hernbrode did not lift one single finger, or make one single phone call, or send one single email to find out if it would be even possible for these two to attend the meeting as REQUESTED by the Family members.
She barely had enough time to just type this ‘rejection’ notice back to Shannon Clark and hit the SEND button ( and she’s also being sure to CC lead GM Family attorney Patrick McGroder )…
————————————————————————-
From: Joy Hernbrode
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 3:36 PM
To: Clark, Shannon L.
Cc: Anthony Hancock; McGroder, Patrick J.
Subject: RE: Q&A 2/5
Shannon: I was recently able to confirm that Thomas French and John Burfing are Federal employees, so unless you’ve made serious headway with the Feds that I was never able to do, we won’t have them at the meeting.
Sorry.
Joy
————————————————————————-
Gotta love this part…
Joy Hernbrode: “Shannon: I was recently able to confirm…
RECENTLY able to confirm?
How about just 180 SECONDS before sending the email, Joy?
And not ONE finger lifted, despite any other contact with US Forestry, to see if these particular men might be allowed to attend the Family Q/A meeting.
Way to ‘make an effort’, Joy.
Followup… something to keep in mind here is that at the SAME MOMENT Joy Herbrode of Arizona Forestry only took 180 seconds ( minus the time it took her to type her email back to GM family attorney Shannon Clark ) to decide she wasn’t even going to lift a finger to even FIND OUT if ‘Thomas French’ and ‘John Burfiend’ could attend the Arizona Forestry settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day… like the deceased Hotshots family members WANTED them to…
Arizona Forestry employee Don Boursier was finishing up arrangements for these SAME TWO MEN to actually be “Subject Matter Experts” for the additional settlement-mandated ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’.
And ( as other emails prove ) Don Boursier was ALSO involved in the settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day.
He’s the one who started researching ‘answers’ for some of the family members questions as soon as they started arriving from the family attorneys.
**
** DON BOURSIER HELPED PREPARE ANSWERS
** FOR THE SETTLEMENT-MANDATED Q/A DAY…
And here is the ’email’ exchange where we see Arizona Forestry’s Don Boursier communicating with USFS employee Anthony Petrilli, Fire Equipment Specialist for the US Forest Service at their Missoula Technology and Development Center in Missoula, Montana.
Pertilli is the one totally ‘in charge’ of the USFS program to develop a new fire shelter.
In this email exchange… Don Boursier of Arizona Forestry says he will keep Pertrilli as an ‘anonymous’ source… but he needs information to help answer some pre-submitted ‘questions’ by GM family members for what he says is the upcoming lawsuit-settlement-mandated Q/A session supposedly scheduled for Friday, February 5, 2016.
This exchange is PROOF that while ‘Don Boursier’ was one of the ones helping to plan the ‘Staff Ride’ ( and arranging for Thomas French and John Burfiend to be ‘Subject Matter Experts’ for THAT part of the lawsuit settlement )… Boursier was also helping Arizona Forestry’s Joy Hernbrode get ‘answers’ for the settlement-mandated GM Family “Question and Answer” day scheduled to take place ‘in secret’ on February 5, 2016…
———————————————————
From: Don Boursier – DonBoursier (at) azsf.gov
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 6:14 PM
To: Petrilli, Anthony C -FS
Subject: Fire Shelter Information
Tony,
I hope this email finds you well. This coming Friday, I am meeting with the families of the Yarnell Hill Fire Tragedy. They have a series of questions that they want answered and I thought I would ask the source.
“Have the shelters been improved since the fire? How or why not?
Have the emergency deployment shelters been improved to withstand greater heat than the 2,000-3,000 degree Fahrenheit that GMH experienced?”
Of course, I will not divulge my source and keep you anonymous.
Thank you in advance,
Don Boursier
Safety and Logistics Officer
Arizona State Forestry
2901 West Pinnacle Peak Rd.
Phoenix, AZ 85027
Cell: (602) xxx-xxxxx
DonBoursier (at) azsf.gov
———————————————————–
And here is USFS employee Anthony Petrilli responding to Arizona Forestry’s Don Boursier… the very DAY before the settlement-mandated Q/A meeting…
———————————————————-
From: “Petrilli, Anthony C -FS” – apetrilli (at) fs.fed.us
Date: Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 3:04 PM
To: Don Boursier – DonBoursier (at) azsf.gov
Subject: RE: Fire Shelter Information
Hi Don
Shelter Material Search
– 20 companies have supplied material samples
– More than 100 material samples total
– Materials are still being submitted to MTDC
Many extreme temperature insulative materials are relatively heavy, bulky, fragile and/or toxic – these traits make many of the materials not suitable for fire shelter use.
Fire Shelter Material Testing
The Fire Shelter Test Protocol is being used for testing material samples. Promising materials have been used to construct full scale fire shelters. Some of the shelters were tested in crown fire experiments in the Northwest Territories of Canada as well as lab testing at the University of Alberta’s Protective Clothing and Equipment Research Facility during the summer and fall of 2015.
The only materials that showed a marked improvement in the thermal protective performance tests were those that were much bulkier and heavier than the current shelter material. Third party test results are being shared with those who have submitted materials for possible improvements. New and improved materials continue being developed, submitted and tested.
Additional testing is scheduled for spring of 2016.
The U.S. Forest Service has entered into a collaborative agreement with the NASA Langley Research Center, located in Hampton, Virginia, to examine potential improvements to fire shelter performance. The team of engineers from NASA is developing flexible heatshields that will protect spacecraft from the high temperatures of atmospheric entry under NASA’s Hypersonic Inflatable Aerodynamic Decelerator (HIAD) project. NASA and the U.S. Forest Service have found that there are common performance requirements between fire shelters and flexible heatshields that can be used to benefit both organizations.
North Carolina State University College of Textiles received a FEMA grant for a project titled: Advanced Fire Blocking Materials for Enhanced Performance in Wildland Fire Shelters. NC State College of Textiles is a world-renown research and test facility in firefighter personal protective equipment.
Many, many smart people from many different entities are working to develop suitable materials that will increase the likelihood of firefighter survival in extreme fire environments.
More Fire Shelter information available at:
h t t p : // w w w .nifc.gov/fireShelt /fshelt_main.html
Feel free to use my name and that I work for USFS – MTDC.
Call or reply if you have any comments or questions.
Thanks, Tony
Ps. Not sure if this info is relevant, but I have a 27 year old son that carries the current shelter.
Tony Petrilli
Fire Equipment Specialist
Forest Service
Missoula Technology and Development Center
p: 406-329-xxxx
c: 406-370-xxxx
apetrilli (at) fs.fed.us
5785 Highway 10 West
Missoula, MT 59808
http://www.fs.fed.us
Caring for the land and serving people
—————————————————
And here is Arizona Forestry’s don Boursier thanking USFS employee Petrilli ( the very DAY before the Family Q/A meeting ) for the ‘Fire Shelter Information’ to help answer the GM Family members’ questions…
—————————————————-
From: Don Boursier – DonBoursier (at) azsf.gov
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 8:24 PM
To: Petrilli, Anthony C -FS
Subject: Re: Fire Shelter Information
Tony,
This is unbelievably perfect for my Q & A session tomorrow.
It’s my turn to buy the beers next time I’m in Missoula!!
A sincere Thank you my friend.
Don Boursier
Safety and Logistics Officer
Arizona State Forestry
2901 West Pinnacle Peak Rd.
Phoenix, AZ 85027
Cell: (602) xxx-xxxx
DonBoursier (at) azsf.gov
———————————————————
And here is Petrilli ‘pinging’ Boursier back 4 days after the Family Q/A meeting, asking Boursier “How it went”. If Boursier responded… that email has NOT been included in the FOIA response with all the other emails.
———————————————————-
From: Petrilli, Anthony C -FS – apetrilli (at) fs.fed.us
Date: Tuesday, February 09, 2016 7:26 PM
To: Don Boursier – DonBoursier (at) azsf.gov
Subject: RE: Fire Shelter Information
How did the shelter info share with the families go ?
———————————————————-
Well…many of you have certainly busy little bloggers or…whatever in my absence. Where to even start? OMG!
I have so many questions (and comments) and so little patience.
I’m sorry…but I do have to start with this one. The Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters now has an OFFICE?
What comes next…an Andreas Lubitz Foundation for Airline Passengers?
Yes…I know, that one WAS over the line. I did say I identify with Mr. Marsh and no matter how hard I try…I can’t even begin to identify with Mr. Lubitz. I have never been interested (even a little bit) in being a pilot.
As Otis likes to quote, “THE GODDAMN PLANE HAS [WAS} CRASHED INTO THE MOUNTAIN!” (The Big Lebowski).
On June 1, 2016 at 3:49 pm, Holly Neill said…
After the fatalities occurred I often called myself one of Granite Mountain’s greatest fans, for one reason and one reason only: Because of what those men faced and endured during the last 10 minutes of their lives.
Duty-Respect-Integrity. You ought to look up the meaning.
Oh that’s right, you’ve never been a firefighter, you can’t be expected to understand or apply the meaning.
I’ll say it again, so you get it:
My name is Holly Neill and I am a SUPER FAN of GMIHC, and I always will be…
BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY FACED AND ENDURED TOGETHER,
DURING THE LAST UNSPEAKABLE MOMENTS OF THEIR LIVES.
It really fucks people like Holly NEILL up that nobody…I repeat NOBODY is…or has ever been MORE of a wildland firefighter than I was and still am in my dreams back in my happy place…Santa Fe!
So…to anybody who don’t like my comments…FUCK OFF! I call them like I see them. I am too old to change. Plus…I don’t want to change…I like who I am.
Santa Fe!
huh, Gary.
Time for you to than join the crew and cast of the Granite Mountain- No Exit.
They are in that area.
Who would you play?
Darrell Willis…I will pace off a tennis court to serve as a safety zone for dozens of WF in the middle of a firestorm of Biblical proportions while I drool on myself and mumble incoherent sentences.
Hey! Fucking Ye Olde Fucking Codger Yet Fucking Magnificent Bastard is back! Fasten yer seatbelts, folks.
And yes Bob…I do know Fred is the LONGEST serving hotshot crew boss in WF history, but I was the YOUNGEST hotshot crew boss in WF history at 23 and I started my own hotshot crew from scratch. AND nobody did it better than I did, so Fred comes in a close second in my book.
And just give me a Pulaski under some special circumstances today and stand back and watch what happens. Just don’t make me hike up the mountain…give me a side by side to ride since I haven proven I can’t ride my quad and stay in the saddle without having it end up on top of me.
Whoops. On second thought…I.forgot about this little mishap. I didn’t even know it was possible to turn one of these things over on a flat beach. I guess you just have to be going fast enough and hit the right object (in my defense, that drift wood stump was the same color as the sand and was mostly buried except for the part that wasn’t, and my goggles were fogging over so….).
I do have some good news though…I had my very expensive helmet seat buckled in next to me so it wasn’t dinged up or scratched during this “event.”.
Just get a heavy helicopter rigged up for sling load if you need me…I’ll go that way.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
Gary,
Key is still on. You have power to the passenger side head light but the drivers side is buried – haha!. Looks like a soft landing and you popped the bead on the front right tire (Maxxis Big Horns?.) No trees to pull from. How did you right it? Ye Olde Hotshot brute force? Rear end looks like it got a little squirrly right before she went over by looking at the tracks.
It did get a little squirrly…and yes, I did pop the bead on the front tire and hardly anybody uses spare tires doing that sort of thing but I said..”I want a spare tire” so I ordered one special. It was in a safe place on my garage floor 250 miles from where I needed it because I said, “Surely…I can go once more without getting a flat and by then, my spare tire carrier in.”
I wanted to get it back on it’s busted ass tire by myself but before I could winch it upright with my Mongo come-a-long and cable/straps/chains by burying a piece of driftwood as a deadman..a crowd of sympathizers gathered and a Polaris 800 quad pulled my right side up and then 3 Jeeps came by and pulled me out of the hole I was in, busted ass tire bead and all.
And yes…everybody was really, really, painfully nice to me, including my dear wife who eventually came along on the quad I used to ride before I went to one with training wheels.
OH MY…ARE YOU OKAY? All of the women wanted to know, while all of the men smirked at me…”Dumb ass old man, can’t even keep a side by side upright!” And yes, the entire event was quite a blur.
All my wife said was, “I didn’t expect to see that (our side by side on it’s side) when I came down the beach.”
So…the real question is….how did I get my machine with a busted ass tire bead all of the way back to a staging area? All I want to say about that is… it was ugly and it took all damn day since I rolled it first thing in the morning.
I really am going to change my ways…maybe.
Wow…you really do know your off road tires. I didn’t know I had those until after I had studied that bitch (non-gender specific) all day wishing it has 7.5 pounds of air back in it while I sweated over it.
A helpful bystander did tell me that if I spayed the rim liberally with WD-40 and then lit it off with a match the resulting explosion might seat the tire back on the rim (I did have my heavy duty Jeeping air compressor with me), but he said I should be really drunk before I tried it…so I didn’t.
Yep. Youtube it, it works. If you have a good ratchet strap you can wrap it around the middle of the tire & tighten it as much as you can to ‘squash’ the bead of the tire out towards the rim & try to inflate with a compressor. If you’re successful at seating the bead the strap will get mega tight as you inflate it though.
Well…he didn’t tell me all of that so I just would have fucked that up too and burned off my white biker goatee.
And I know since you are good enough of an investigator to notice all of that other stuff…you are wondering why didn’t I just take the tire with the busted ass bead off and take it to the staging area on my wife’s quad (that I USED to ride) and then take it into Coos Bay to get it put back together…right?
Well…my socket and ratchet to take the fucking tire off was laying next to the spare tire on my garage floor next to my new spare tire while I waited to find just the right after market spare tire carrier and for it to arrive since those fucking machines don’t come with one because nobody is going to need one…I guess?
And I didn’t want to admit to anyone I didn’t even have the tools to take the tire with the busted ass bead off the fucking machine…so I winged it and it took all damn day after the crowd finally left.
But…with you, who are my closest friends and confidants…I don’t have any secrets. So now you know the rest of the story.
And how does this relate to the worst fuck up in WF history you might ask? Well…I guess it shows you why I identify with Eric Marsh even after all of this time because you know what?Nobody never makes a mistake at work (except for Iron Man Bob and Fucked Up Fred) it’s just when a hotshot crew boss makes one (lie hundreds of other professions like loggers or commercial fishermen) it can really go very badly very badly very quickly when the crew believes in their leader as strongly as all of Eric Marsh and my crews believed in us and just like I believed in my hotshot crew bosses so I would have looked for Easter Eggs even on June 30, 2013 and I would have died with them. That’s the way we rolled.
Whoops. Pretty bad butchering of the Kings English.
Nobody EVER DOESN’T make a mistake at work (except for Iron Man Bob and Fucked Up Fred) it’s just when a hotshot crew boss makes one (like hundreds of other professions such as loggers or commercial fishermen like the Woodsman showed us) it can really go very badly, very quickly for a lot of people when the crew believes in their leader as strongly as all of Eric Marsh’s and my crews believed in us and just like I believed in my hotshot crew bosses, so I would have looked for Easter Eggs even though it was June 30, 2013 and I would have died with them. That’s the way we rolled.
OK..OK Woodsman. I will give it all up and quit trying to minimize what a fuck up I am. I jacked up the Teryx with the Highlift Jack I had…a Highlift Jack but no spare tire or tool to take off the tire…go figure?
I then forced the tire all of the way off the rim with a big screwdriver and drove all of the way back to the staging area on just the rim in the soft sand at about 2 miles per hour and stopping to force the tire back off the rim every time it rode back up on it so I didn’t eat it up.
And to my surprise…it worked. I didn’t eat up the very expensive rim or the very expensive nearly new Maxxis Big Horn while looking very cool and giving the thumbs up to everyone who roared past me as I pretended everything I was doing was all just part of my master plan.
I remember fucking up pretty badly working some fires in expanded dispatch while on assignment in Asheville, North Carolina back in the day and an old hand with the BIA (Sherrill Lampson, some of you old hands will remember him, hell…maybe Sherrill is reading this blog) out of the Ramah Navajo Reservation in New Mexico gave me some of the best advice I ever got, “It’s not a fuck up…if you recover.”
Actually…Sherrill said, “It’s not a fuck up…IF (with a very strong emphasis on IF) you recover.” And I recovered…so that fuck up doesn’t really count.
Oh…and one more thing NEILL. If the crew would have paid closer attention to what the fire was doing in the 10 minutes before the last 10,minutes of their lives…that God Forsaken fire in that God Forsaken place called Yarnell would be nothing more than a footnote in Arizona history…not an entire chapter in WF history.
Yes..I am still conflicted about Marsh and Steed and always will be.
Just in case the poster named CL ( who now admits to having been working at the Arizona Dispatch Center on the day of the Yarnell tragedy ) is reading OVER HERE in this ‘Chapter’…
On June 5, 2016 at 10:49 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth REPLIED to ‘CL’…
>> Reply to CL post on June 5, 2016 at 8:08 am
>>
>> CL said…
>>
>> Considering this discussion is about the Yarnell
>> Hill Fire that is what I am referring to
Thank you. Things got a bit confusing there because someone named Holly Neill started talking about the 2011 ‘Horseshoe 2’ fire… and whether Eric Marsh was ever actually a ‘DIVS’ on THAT fire.
So thanks for clearing that up.
>> CL also said…
>>
>> and yes I was there not on the ground but
>> in dispatch. The states type 2 “short team”
>> that was assembled lacked positions such
>> as div group supervisors and safety officers.
Norval Tyler testified to ADOSH that as of 10:20 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013… the Arizona Forestry Dispatch Center ( ADC ) in Deer Valley officially stopped ‘recording’ radio transmissions taking place at the Yarnell Fire… since that is the moment that Roy Hall’s Type 2 short command took local control of the Yarnell Fire.
But Norval Tyler also added the caveat “Except for aircraft”.
Does that mean that even for the rest of Sunday, June 30, 2013, the Arizona Forestry Dispatch Center WAS recording ‘Airplane conversations’?
If so… do you know if those recordings would have included BOTH the ‘Air-To-Air’ radio channel communications AND the ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel communications?
**
** THE LIST OF ‘GENERAL QUESTIONS’ THAT WERE TO BE ASKED
** AT THE SETTLEMENT-MANDATED FAMILY Q/A DAY
The following begins the ‘handout’ that was given to people attending the settlement-mandated Family ‘Question and Answer’ day that was held ‘in secret’ back on February 5, 2016.
These are not ALL of the questions that were scheduled to be ASKED, but these are the ‘GENERAL QUESTIONS’ that Arizona Forestry Deputy Director Joy Hernbrode had ‘assembled’ from the lists of WRITTEN questions that Family Members had been submitting for weeks prior to the meeting.
The ‘format’ for the meeting was going to be TIMELINE based… and they were going to ‘walk through’ the Yarnell fire DAY by DAY and HOUR by HOUR… and stop and address the family’s written questions when they ‘came up’ in the TIMELINE.
Here is page 1 of the ‘meeting handout’…
—————————————————————————————–
AGENDA — YARNELL FAMILY’S MEETING
February 5, 2016 – 9:30 AM Start
1. Introductions — be sure to include background and experience, your role at Yarnell, and what the responsibilities of that role were (include what vehicles you drove)
2. Fire timeline and address questions
3. What are we doing differently now?
We will be having a lunch break — if you haven’t responded to Debi please do so today
Appropriate dress
GENERAL LIST OF QUESTIONS…
—————————————————————————————–
NOTE: I will post the rest of this ‘handout’ for the February 5, 2016 meeting as separate ‘Replies’. It’s going to take a number of them due to the LENGTH, and I’ll see if they can all fit by simply posting each PAGE of the QUESTIONS as numbered in the original document as separate ‘Replies’…
And away we go…
*** Page 1
General Questions
1. [Who talked directly to anyone with GMIC on the 30th?] # 20 Byron — Did you speak to Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed anytime on June 30, while they were in the field?
2. [As we walk through general timeline, please talk about any conversations you had with GMIC and the content of those conversations.] #2 The SAIT is very difficult to follow. Please clarify your conversations with Marsh, the timeframes and topics of discussion.
3. [Byron, did you ever go to Helm Ranch? Did you see or talk to anyone there?] #21A Byron — Did you at any time go into the Helms (Boulder Springs Ranch)? Did you see of talk with anyone at the Helms? Did you talk with anyone via radio? If so who?
4. [Who redacted the Blue Ridge information? Why?] #43 Is protecting the USFS more important than learning what really happened? In my opinion this information may help prevent the loss of life in future fires. The Blue Ridge crew were the closest resources to the Granite Mountain crew. It appears to me that valuable information may be gained, it appears that the USFS puts politics in front of lives.
5. [Have the shelters been improved since the fire? How or why not?] #54 Have the emergency deployment shelters been improved to withstand greater heat than the 2,000-3,000*F that the GMH experienced?
6. [Is it true resources cannot travel between 10 PM and 4 AM? If they can’t travel, did any resource have to hold until 4 AM? #42 Would that have made any difference?] Is it true that no resources can travel between 10 PM through 4 AM? If they could not travel what resources (personnel and equipment) had to hold in place until 4 AM to continue to travel to the fire?
7. [Were there radio communication problems on this fire? Are these types of issues common on fires? Have these issues been addressed or resolved? #52] Has the radio and communication problems been resolved?
8. Why did Air Tactical Group Supervisor (ATGS) Rory Collins refuse to provide information to ADOSH? #44
9. [Did any other agency refuse to cooperate with ADOSH? #44] Again this is the policy of the USFS. All other agency’s personnel cooperated with ADOSH investigators.
10. [Who redacted the Blue Ridge information? Why? #43] All of the documentation of the Blue Ridge IHC was redacted by the USFS to a point that the documents were useless to the ADOSH’s investigation. Is protecting the USFS more important than learning what really happened? In my opinion this information may help prevent the loss of life in future fires. The Blue Ridge crew were the closest resources to the GMIHC.
** June 28, 2013
11. How many calls respectively were received [on the initial day of] the fire in the local fire departments of Congress, Yarnell, Peeples Valley, Wilhoit, Wickenburg, and Prescott when the fire was less than half an acre? #56
12. Why weren’t the fire departments [of Congress, Yarnell, Peeples Valley, Wilhoit, Wickenburg, and Prescott] allowed to fight the fire on Friday when it was small and manageable? #57
( End of Page 1 )
*** Page 2
June 29, 2013
13. (1743) Why did the Type 4 IC refuse the VLAT? #45 When VLAT is very effective in this type of terrain and fuels… the VLAT was in Albuquerque NM, 1.5-2 hours away. I understand it is easy to be a “Monday morning quarterback.” I’m just asking for the thought process.
14. Three Hotshot crews were ordered. Blue Ridge and GMIHC arrived but Arroyo Grande IHC never made it to the fire. Why? At what time was this information learned? When did Arroyo Grande get replaced by another Hotshot crew? #46
15. The Type 4 IC ordered a Type 2 Incident Management Team. Who made the decision and what was the decision process to order a Type 2 Short team instead of a fully Type 2 team? #39
16. What team members (positions) were initially ordered with the Type 2 short team? #40
17. How many more resources (equipment and personnel) does a full Type 2 team get compared to a Type 2 short team? #41
** June 30, 2013 — Start of Day
18. Why was GM1CH Superintendent (Marsh) assigned as Division A Supervisor? Region 3 Type 2 Incident Management team comes with at least 6 division supervisors on the initial order. #47 [Why was Marsh not replaced later in the day as more resources arrived?] Note: The fire was in the 4th operational period when the burn over happened.
19. Why weren’t the radio problems that were experienced on Saturday corrected by the following day since the communication problems resulted in the GMIHC not retreating to safety as per the lookout’s instructions? #53 [Explain how radios work.]
20. [Would Marsh have set trigger points for the crew throughout the day? Did he tell anyone at ICP what those were? Should he have?] #24 Are you aware that Brendan McDonough reports that Marsh had set trigger points for the crew? Do you know what those triggers were? [What time frame is this question referencing?]
21. [Did GMIHC have radio problems? Was their equipment defective? Why were they sent out with defective equipment? How do you know their equipment wasn’t defective?] Since the radio communication was not working properly on Saturday, why were the GMIHC allowed out on Sunday with faulty communication equipment? #55
Transfer of Authority
22. (1022) Transfer of command from Shumate to Hall Type 2 IC. Type 2 Short now in control of the fire without a Planning Section Chief, Safety Officer, and a team of Division Supervisors. Is this standard practice? #48
23. [Explain why it may be better to take control of a fire with an incomplete team instead of waiting to get a complete team before taking over.]
24. (1022) At the time the Type 2 Short Team assumed command of the fire, what other [ordered] resources of the incident management team had not checked in? #49
25. [What is the role of the Planning Section Chief, Safety Officer, and Division Supervisors.]
( End of page 2 )
*** Page 3
1300 – 1315
26. (1300) Why did Division Z Group Supervisor (Marquez) leave the fire and never return? Usually adjoining divisions rely on each other for intel on changing conditions, resources, etc. I would consider it abandonment of position. I feel that his abandonment of his division would put divisions on both sides at an increased risk. Who was the Div Sup for Div Z since Marquez abandoned his division? How many crews were engaged without a Div Sup once he left? Has an investigation/disciplinary actions been taken towards Marquez for his abandonment of position? Is he still a card carrying Div Sup? Has he been a Div Sup on a fire in the last 2-3 years? #50
27. (1311) [What did Todd Abel and Eric Marsh discuss during their phone call at this time?] #1 Clarify conversations with Eric Marsh. One via cellphone 1:11 PM about Rance Marquez. What else was discussed during this phone call?
1330 – 1345
28. (IMG_0749_2389 Caldwell video) Marsh says “I’m trying to work my way off the top.” What did you think this meant? [Abel] said, “I’ll get air support down there ASAP.” What did you mean by this? That you would get them air support in the form of retardant or water drops? Or that you would send air support down there to check on the crew? Clarify the check on the crew. Why did you want air support to check on the crew? For what purpose? What was air support supposed to see or inform the crew on, that they could not do for themselves? After air support checked on the crew, what did air support come back and tell you? What was the status of GMIHC according to air support? Are you aware of which plane checked on GMIHC and why? Are you aware of the conversation Marsh had with AA when AA checked on them? #3
1400 – 1415
29. (1405-1526) [Was ICP ever evacuated? Can you show that it wasn’t? Why wasn’t it?] Between 1405 and 1526, the fire behavior was increasing, but [Abel stated] there were no dramatic problems. This is the timeframe during which ICP was evacuated, with fire several hundred yards away, burnout operations, and structure protection. If ICP is threatened, is this considered a dramatic problem? #7
30. (1405 Weather Update) If Kimball communicated weather updates on command and tac, whose responsibility was it to inform firefighters on the ground and get division call back/confirmation in return? #4
31. (1405 Weather Update) What was it about the 1405 weather report that was considered “unremarkable?” The NWS reports that the 1405 WX updated said: The first call was made just after 2 PM (2:05 on his chart]. They were called regarding new convection that was developing near and to the east of the fire associated with that outflow boundary. And they were alerted, expect strong and shifting winds when the…
( End of page 3 )
*** Page 4
…main outflow were to arrive. They were given a time estimate within one or two hours or so. #5
32. (1405 Weather Update) It seems that this update was the precursor of the weather event to come, the first notification, and the prediction to arrive within 1-2 hours (or between 3 and 4 PM). This was a heads up on the formation and movement of the outflow boundary. How was this first update treated? What was the discussion about this as being unremarkable? Shouldn’t it have been more of a heads up? #6
33. (1413) Did you hear someone ask Marsh about his status, and his reply that GMIHC was “making their way down their escape route from this morning?” Was this the discussion later relayed as the “predetermined escape route”? #3B and #30 Did you hear someone ask Marsh at 1413: “What’s your status right now?” Did you hear Marsh reply that Granite was “making their way down their escape route from this morning?” Did “escape route from this morning” get translated into “predetermined escape route,” which is used by [Abel] and others to describe a conversation [they] overheard between Marsh and someone?
1515 — 1530
34. (1526 Weather) [Discuss the weather update process. Some resources indicated that they did not receive this update — do you know why? Was confirmation requested?] Are you aware that numerous resources, including the following, report never having received the this crucial 1526 update? Shrine resources, Blue Ridge IHC, DivS Marquez [in his ADOSH interview], Shawn Jackson/BLM, DPS Ranger 58 Crew, E151- Shrine Area lookout. Rob Beery states: 1545 Confirmation was not requested from the divisions [in his log?] #9
35. (1526 Weather) [Did anyone talk to Marsh about the weather updates?] Please describe the conversation you had with Marsh about the weather updates. You [Abel or Kimball] mention talking with him about clouds building and collapsing. Discuss specifics about the 1526 NWS update and the specific relay of this update to Marsh. #10
36. (1526 Weather) You [Abel or Kimball] did not recall having a discussion of the timing parameters given in the weather report (the 30 plus minutes expected for the weather to change). You also notes that timing issues are routinely discounted in weather reports because they are so variable and hugely unreliable. [Was there any discussion of this weather as a threat in general or to GMIHC specifically, other than what you and Marsh spoke about?] There was no discussion of this weather as a threat to general Granite Mountain specifically, other than what you and Marsh spoke about. Please elaborate on discounting weather timing issues. #11
37. (1526 Weather) The second weather update was a continuation of the first one, issued at 1405. This wind event was not new, it was being tracked all afternoon by NWS. Nor was it a surprise or an unanticipated change. The second update at 1526 was a more specific and current update on the same outflow boundary event referred to by the 1405 update. There is much confusion in SAIR and ADOSH reports about the two updates and their relation to each other. When you [Able and Kimball] state that you delivered weather update to Eric Marsh, did you deliver both updates to him? Many on the fire report having received the first update but not having received the second update, and being caught off guard by the 1600 wind shift, although it was…
( End of Page 4 )
*** Page 5
…predicted. #12 Did you [Musser] receive the 1526 weather update and the “within a half hour” arrival prediction? What did this mean to you? How did you react to this? Why did you ask GMIHC to come down [when you asked at 1542 if GMIHC could spare some resources to come down and help prep some stuff] at nearly the same time this weather event was predicted to arrive? #29
38. (1526 Wind Shift) “David calls back to the Yarnell Hill Fire, says he expects wind shift will be within 10 to 15 minutes.” Here the wind shift in imminent. In the relay of the weather bulletin from Kimball to Abel in 1529 retardant study audio, the time prediction is relayed as “within a half hour.” [Why the change?] #16
39. (1526 wind shift) Did you [Kimball] assume that the wind shift you were seeing at 1530 during your conversation with Blanchard that this wind shift was the actual one he was predicting? Did you or did you not realize that the wind shift predicted was incoming, had not arrived yet and what you were seeing was only the beginning of the shift? Many references from those on YHF indicate that a notable wind shift occurred at 1600 and accelerated by 1630, including air attack. This would indicate that the NWS update with 1600 timeframe was overall very accurate. #17
40. (1526 wind shift) Who assumed that the shift had already arrived by 330? #18
41. (1526 wind shift) Was there a problem with awareness and interpretation of the arrival time of the outflow boundary? #19
1530 – 1545
42. (1542 timeframe) Did you [Musser] ask Marsh if GMIHC could spare resources to come down and help in Yarnell, help “prep some more stuff’? [Abel, ADOSH, p. 48] [Where did you expect GMIHC to be by this time of day?] Were you asking to try and get help for Gary Cordes and his structure group? What was the exact plan for GMIHC if they were to come down? Please clarify this. Were there plans for an additional dozer line and burn out? Point protection? What was the mission and reason for GMIHC to come down? #26
43. Please clarify this request you [Musser] made to Marsh. It was never mentioned in SAIR. It is only mentioned in ADOSH. Did you tell SAIT investigators about your request to GMIHC to come down and help? #27
44. Please confirm or correct the following paraphrase of your request to Marsh: Official reports state that you asked if GMIHC was available and that Marsh replied that the crew was committed to the ridge. March then requested that you inquire with Blue Ridge as to their availability to help. Cordes then replied that Blue Ridge was committed to him already. It seems odd that this conversation would have ended here without further discussion. Do you recall if there was more to this conversation after Cordes said that BRIHC was already committed to him? During the timeframe when you spoke to Marsh about helping in Yarnell, photo evidence shows that some of the GMIHC crew was in the process of moving and making their way along and off of their handline. Could your conversation with Marsh have reflected this? Did he tell you that the crew was in the process of making their way back along the handline, hence the conclusion that they were committed to the ridge? Did Marsh give you a…
( End of Page 5 )
*** Page 6
…timeframe for how long the crew was committed up there? Did he tell you he would bring the crew down at a certain point in the future, after certain things happened first? #28
(1542 Panebaker Video from SAIT investigation records: Photos and Videos folder: Aerial retardant study) (Video: 20130630-15423-2_ fire EP) (Time stamp on the video is the END time. The conversation starts immediately, and the tape is 24 seconds long, so the conversation begins about 1542)
Eric Marsh: “…towards the structures, oh”
Retardant Study Techs: “Burning over the retardant line”
Reply: “uh huh”
Eric Marsh: ” Over and uh, into Yarnell”
Musser: “Division Alpha, Operations Musser”
Eric Marsh: “Thank you”
Retardant Study Tech: “Where do we document that at?”
“Somewhere in the notes”
** From the ARS logs-this conversation about fire burning over the retardant line was between Div A and AA? (with an uncertain question mark next to Air Attack). (Voice ID for Eric Marsh has been verified by Amanda Marsh, his wife.)
45. Do you [Musser] recall hearing this conversation between Marsh and someone, possibly AA? You contacted Marsh as he was having this conversation. # 22
46. For Marsh to say “toward the structures, over and into Yarnell” in the same conversation he reports that the fire burned across the retardant line, what does this mean to you? Do you recall this timeframe when fire burned across retardant line? It was reported to SWCC and tweeted out as YHF status event. It was clearly an important event. #23
47. Your [Musser] request/inquiry to GMIHC to relocate and help in Yarnell: Was this a Planning OPS scope of duty and responsibility? Did you coordinate this inquiry with Field OPS Abel? Is it possible that OPS roles were overlapped, and due to chaos of extreme fire behavior, one OPS Chief did not realize what the other was doing until later? #33
1545 – 1600
48. (1558) ATGS Collins abruptly leaves then fire and goes to deer valley, turning air attack over to Bravo 33 who was busy dealing with lead planes duties. Who approved this or was Collins just doing whatever he wanted? #51
49. (1550) Discuss the fact that AA Rory Collins told Marsh that the fire would reach Yarnell in 1-2 hours. #13 [Does this mean AA didn’t get the weather update?]
50. (weather forecasts) Discuss approaching outflow boundary, invisible, tracked on Doppler radar, and AA ability to see this coming VS. NWS meteorologists. Whose prediction is more likely to be accurate regarding an incoming outflow boundary? This wind event was only visible on Doppler radar and had been tracked for several hours by NWS. #14
( End of Page 6 )
*** Page 7
51. The NWS tracked this event all afternoon on radar. Air Attack clearly did not receive this update, he went off of current fire behavior in his ROS prediction to Eric Marsh. Please discuss time predictions by NWS, and how these predictions are viewed by fire overhead. Discuss whether AA or Bravo units should be included in weather updates by NWS. Can this and should this be used as a Lesson Learned? #15
1600 – 1615
(Kimball ADOSH Interview, lines 1371-1392)
—————————————————————————
A: …I had taken one drive down into Glen Ilah at one point in time earlier in the day. Ah, they had made a mention oh we’ve got tractor working back there. And we put some – some retardant back across that south corner to kind a pin that corner down. Urn, one point in time when they pushed the button on the evacuations they had said that oh, there had been a report of some increased activity. Urn, I want back in there, didn’t see anything that really caught my eye as being significant to be, but then I also knew that I was not – but where I was down in…
Q1: Uh-huh.
A: …Glen Ilah i was – I very well could not be seen – necessarily seeing what they were seeing…
Q1: Right.
A: …urn, from up on the hill above it or any of that.
Q1: Mm-hm.
A: I just knew that as I drove back into Glen Ilah I’m thinking I hope I don’t have to be involved in this…
————————————————————————-
52. [Your statement] indicates you took a second trip into Glen Ilah around the 1600 timeframe. Please elaborate on this second trip into Glen Ilah. Who reported on increased activity? What did you mean by you couldn’t “see what they were seeing from up on the hill above it”? Where did you go? What did you do? Did you at any time go into the Helms (Boulder Springs Ranch)? Did you see or talk with anyone at the Helms? Did you talk with anyone via radio? If so who? #21A
53. Discuss all radio conversations you heard between Marsh or Steed and anyone else on the fire, including yourself. Did you hear someone ask DIVA @1613 “What’s your status right now”? Did you hear Marsh report that Granite was making their way down their escape route? If so elaborate. #21C
54. (1600) Do you know if Marsh heard Cordes [say that] trigger points were met to evacuate Yarnell at 1600? Do you know if Marsh heard Cordes [say that his] trigger point was met to pull firefighters off the line with the advice “you have an hour”? (also in 1600 timeframe). #25
55. (1600) Did you [Musser] meet with Tony Sciacca shortly after 1600 along Hwy 89 south toward Yarnell? What did you discuss with him in that meeting? Did you and Tony discuss the location and activities of GMIHC? Did you hear Tony talk to DIVA on the radio? Elaborate. #31
( End of Page 7 )
*** Page 8
1615 – 1630
* THE YARNELL-GAMBLE VIDEO ( Presumable shot by BR Hotshot Ronald Gamble )
56. (1627) Did you hear someone urge Marsh to have the crew “go a little faster” at 1627 timeframe? Do you know why someone would be urging GM to hurry up, 15 minutes before they were trapped and killed? It has been verified that this conversation did not occur between Blue Ridge and Marsh, it was someone other than a BR hotshot. #3A, #32 Did you hear someone tell DIVA at 1627 “Appreciate it if you could go a little faster, but you’re the supervisor”? If so, elaborate. #21D
1715 – 1730
57. Numerous references to Cordes trigger points indicate that they were breached much sooner than expected and many were taken by surprise by unanticipated fire behavior. “Fire outperformed our expectations”. #34 [Do you agree? Why?]
58. What should you or could you have reasonably expected to happen given the 1526 weather update: winds E-NE 25-35 mph possibly as high as 50 mph, by 4 o’clock? Given the fuel conditions, the exclusion of fire from the area, the weather data, the amount of fire already on the ground, etc. What did you think this type of outflow boundary weather event would do to a decadent chaparral fire? Do we have a problem with the following Fire Orders? #35
59. What happens when we discount NWS predictions? How can this interpretation process be safer and more reliable? #36
60. What happens when current fire behavior is used to predict expected fire behavior, without factoring in NWS radar-tracked and time-predicted weather events? Should trigger points be reevaluated when a dire weather update is issued? Should fireline resources be pulled off to safety staging areas or ordered into safety zones when dire weather updates are issued with narrow time stamps? #37
61. Eric Marsh had a ROS and a time and distance problem in the end. Why? How many of the issues discussed above can be factored into Marsh’s miscalculation? How many others on the YHF were caught off guard by a “predicted” weather event? Why? #38
( End of Page 8 )
******** END OF JUST THIS ‘GENERAL’ LIST OF QUESTIONS
More to come.
**
** PRODUCTION DESIGNER FOR YARNELL FILM IS KEVIN KAVANAUGH
Well… I guess they are really going to town now with the film.
New ‘names’ are appearing almost hourly on the new IMDB page.
The actual ‘Production Designer’ for the “Granite Mountain” movie has now been announced.
His name is Kevin Kavanaugh… and he’s famous.
This is the guy who was ( among lots of other things ) the ‘Production Designer’ for the BATMAN movies… The Dark Knight ( 2008 ) and The Dark Knight Rises ( 2012 ).
Other Kevin Kavanaugh ‘Production Designer’ and/or ‘Art Director’ credits…
Art Director… ( partial list )…
Transformers (1),
Mission Impossible 2,
Mission Impossible 3,
The Fast and the Furious ( original ).
Production Designer ( partial list )…
Knight Crawler
The November Man
The Dark Knight Rises ( 1,2 )
Going the Distance
etc., etc…
**
** WHO ACTUALLY ATTENDED THE SETTLEMENT-MANDATED
** ‘QUESTION AND ANSWER’ DAY ON FEBRUARY 5, 2016?
Here is the LUNCH ORDER that Arizona Forestry placed for the settlement-mandated Family ‘Question and Answer’ day that took place in ‘secret’ back on Feburary 5, 2016.
NOTE: The following is not a FULL indication of who may or may not have been present at the February 5, 2016 settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day… but it’s probably pretty close.
As you can see below… apparently VERY few family members even bothered to attend this Q/A session, as well as very few people that actually worked the Yarnell Hill Fire.
This is also not definitive proof of whether the person named ‘Holly Neill’ was ever allowed to attend, as the attorneys for some of the family members were trying to arrange… but she is definitely not listed on the ‘Lunch Order’.
Arizona Forestry did NOT want ‘Holly Neill’ to attend the settlement-mandated Q/A day because of her association with author John Maclean… who is known to be writing a for-profit book based on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Holly Neill agreed to sign a ‘non-disclosure’ agreement with Arizona Forestry in exchange for being able to attend the meeting… but it is still not known if that made Arizona Forestry change their minds and withdraw their objections to her attendance.
——————————————————————————————-
HOB NOBS LUNCH ORDER – FAX 602-253-9239
ARIZONA STATE FORESTRY
1110 WEST WASHINGTON, SUITE 100, PHOENIX, AZ 85007
DELIVERY TIME: 2/5/16, 11:30 AM
The first 11 lunch orders will be paid for by Arizona Forestry…
1. Joy ( Hernbrode ) – Vitos favorite, no cheese and no red pepers. Large Dr. Pepper.
2. Jeff ( Whitney ) – Smokey Joe, no onion, iced tea.
3. Todd ( Abel ) – Doc’s Choice sandwich and Coke.
4. Scott ( Hunt? ) – Carver sandwich, iced tea.
5. Norval ( Tyler ) – Carver sandwich and an iced tea.
6. Wolfgang ( Grunberg ) – Grilled Salmon sandwich on herb focaccia and a regular coke/pepsi.
7. Byron ( Kimball ) – Pesto grilled Chicken Sandwich on Sourdough.
8. Roy ( Hall ) – Smokey Joe on Sourdough and coke.
9. Paul ( Musser ) – Buffalo chicken pizza.
10. Anthony ( ?? Lawyer? ) – Albacore sandwich on any multi-grain bread.
11. David ( ?? Lawyer? ) – Voodoo chicken salad sandwich with coke.
The rest will be paid for by the Gallagher & Kennedy law firm…
12. Jerry ( Pfingston ) – Smokey Joe.
13. Deborah ( Pfringston ) – Albacore.
14. Doug ( ?? ) – Smokey Joe
15. Darrell ( Willis ) – Smokey Joe.
16. Juliann ( Aschcraft ) – Quiche Lorraine, iced chai tea.
17. Kathy ( ?? ) – Albacore tuna sandwich, no onions, wheat berry bread / iced tea.
18. Roxanne ( Warneke ) – Vito’s Favorite.
19. Tom ( Ashcraft ) – Carve Sandwich w/ no feta or cilantro.
20. Extra – Turkey sandwich, wheat.
21. Extra – Turkey sandwich, wheat.
22. Extra – Turkey sandwich, wheat.
23. Extra – Turkey sandwich, wheat.
24. Extra – Turkey sandwich, wheat.
———————————————————————————————
WTKTT,
I know they weren’t supposed to bring recording devices; were they allowed to take notes?
There is no indication of that anywhere in the emails that have been released via Arizona Open Records request.
There ARE more ‘questions’ and more ‘notes’ that Joy Hernbrode had assembled which indicate exactly WHO was supposed to ANSWER each question as it came up in the timeline.
The familes were ALSO supposed to be able to stop the proceedings and ask any other questions they wanted at any time, even if they weren’t part of the pre-submitted written questions.
But there is NO indication about anything that actually happened DURING the meeting… and especially NO indication whatsoever of what ANY of the ANSWERS to ANY of these questions even MIGHT have been.
According to Arizona Forestry… no recordings… no transcripts… no written notes.
Zero. Zip. Nada.
Personally… I find that simply “not credible”.
We’re supposed to believe that none of the ‘responders’ to the questions even had an ‘notes’ of their own to use to help THEM answer all of these questions when it came their ‘turn’? I doubt that as well.
But if you read the list of questions… there’s one thing you can be sure of.
If those questions were all answered truthfully… then there is now a small group of people ( including a few Family Members ) who pretty much know EXACTLY what happened at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Yes, except whatever Gary Cordes might have added…
Something tells me that even after Gary Cordes had simply REFUSED to attend this settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day… if the attorneys for the family members had continued to INSIST that he be there to answer the questions above…
…Gary Cordes would have had to retain counsel and simply assert his 5th amendment rights against self-incrimination.
Yup…
**
** DUGGER HUGHES SENDS ‘PRAISE’ LETTER TO DARRELL WILLIS
** TWO DAYS BEFORE GM EVEN FINISHES WORKING THE FIRE ???
The ‘letter of praise’ for Granite Mountain’s work on the ‘2011 Horseshoe 2’ fire that is ‘missing’ from the ‘Granite Mountain’ records sent by the City of Prescott to ADOSH investigators… but that Holly Neill was somehow able to upload to her ‘Google Drive’…
This letter is signed by ‘Horseshoe 2 Fire’ IC Dugger Hughes, and dated June 4, 2011…
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5LiZw3EBzOWdnU3MlJSY2k0bDg
And now here ( again ) is the actual ‘work history’ also being directly referred to by Holly Neill as ‘evidence’ that Eric Marsh could not possibly have been any kind of ‘DIVS’ ( temporary or otherwise ) on the ‘2011 Horseshoe 2’ fire…
——————————————————————————
SAIT: H: Qualifications: Master Record: Eric Marsh
Page 335…
Type: JOB
Position Code: CRWB
Hazard Type: WF
Position Description: Crew Boss, Single Resource
Experience Date: 05/22/2011
Incident #: 11-0455
Incident Name: HORSESHOE 2 – CNF
Operational Periods: 14
Evaluation: Not Received
Experience Quality ( Fuel Type ): G,B,T
Comments: Type 1
Page 340…
Date: 05/22/2011 thru 06/06/2011 ( 14 Days / Operational Periods )
Name: Horseshoe 2
Agency: CNF
Mgmt.: 1 ( Type 1 fire management team in place )
Q/T: CRWB
Class: No entry
Fuel: G,B,T
——————————————————————————-
Eric Marsh ( and Granite Mountain ) were still working the ‘Horseshoe 2’
fire until June 6, 2011.
So…
June 4, 2011: Dugger Hughes sends ‘letter of praise’ about GM to Darrell Willis.
June 6, 2011: The day GM actually FINISHED WORKING the same damn fire.
So even as ‘boiler-plate’ as these letters can be… is THAT USUAL?…
…for your home base to be receiving “Letters or Praise” for your work on a fire before you have even finished WORKING the same damn fire?… or is this just more indication of ‘weirdness’ going on here?
The Normal Process and I can not say Current.
As a dispatch center that rousted my Supervisors Type 1 IC for 8 years.
The Team waited till they got back to base to evaluate and send out any letters of exceptional work to over head and crews. The Letters also specifically noted the dates and location on fire like Division and specifically what they did. There had to be a consensus of the team to send such letters. It was not a general practice. A copy of your performance rating was normally all you got.
From what I hear today they are more than likely handed out like candy. Normally the Crews are given an evaluation by a STLD or DIVISION Supervisor at the time they are released from the Fire. Sending letters before that time is at least some what strange. The Ratings are reviewed by the team after the fire not during it.
It doesn’t even make any SENSE to send out such “Letters of Praise” before a resource has even FINISHED working for you.
It would be like the President of Augusta National Golf Course having sent a “Congratulations for Winning the Masters Golf Tournament!” to Jordan Speith’s ‘home office’ ( his father runs Jordan Spieth, Inc. ) when Jordan still had several holes left to play at the Masters… but then when the QUADRUPLE-BOGIED the Par-3 on the back 9 and committed one of the greatest blunders in the history of Golf… and LOST the tournament… the ‘President’ would have to send ANOTHER letter asking for the FIRST letter BACK.
What if this ‘resource’ you are praising for their ‘work’ on your fire ( for the FIRST part of it ) totally FUCKS UP for the remainder of their time working for you?
Nah… it just doesn’t make sense.
As you said… if “Letters of Praise” are going to be sent… you do it AFTER the resource is FINISHED working for you ( if at all ).
Something is just NOT RIGHT regarding even this one ‘Letter’ Holly Neill says she found ( which didn’t even show up in ALL of the GM records that City of Prescott gave to the ADOSH investigators ).
Did GM do two different “tours” on that fire? If so, the letter might refer to the first one.
Yes… they did… but Dugger Hughes was only the ‘Type 1 Incident Commander’ for the SECOND tour they did ( the one with the 14 Operational Shifts ).
Marsh and GM had been at the same ‘Horseshoe 2’ fire a full TWO WEEKS before that… but the records say the Incident itself was in the ‘Type 3/4’ stage.
The way that is written in the work records ( ‘Type 3/4’ )… I take that to mean that when GM was there the FIRST time ( for only 2 Operational Shifts )… they helped ‘transition’ the fire DOWN from a ‘Type 3’ level to a ‘Type 4’ level.
Can’t be totally sure… but it would stand to reason that if the ‘letter of praise’ was coming from Dugger Hughes… then he had to be referring to the time when HE was running the ‘Horseshoe 2’ fire… which would have been GM’s second time working that fire ( the tour that lasted 14 days instead of just 2 ).
It still just seems VERY, VERY ODD that some ‘Type 1 IC’ would spending his time WHILE a fire is still active to be shooting out “Letters of Praise” back to the home units of resources that were still actively working the same damn fire.
Correction… I said…
“Marsh and GM had been at the same ‘Horseshoe 2’ fire a full TWO WEEKS before that… but the records say the Incident itself was in the ‘Type 3/4’ stage.”
I didn’t mean to imply that GM had been AT the Horseshoe 2 fire for TWO WEEKS prior to their work on the ‘Type 1’ ( Dugger Hughes ) version of the fire.
What I meant was that TWO WEEKS before that SECOND tour… GM had been there at the same fire… but only for TWO days ( 2 Operational Shifts ).
They then were NOT there for TWO WEEKS… and only then ‘came back’ for that second 14 day tour on the same fire ( which, by then, had ballooned into a full Type 1 Incident with Dugger Hughes’ Type 1 team running it ).
I’d be curious to see what other letters from the same fire looked like. If they’re as pro forma as it sounds, they should all look the same. It would not surprise me if this one looks different.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on June 5, 2016 at 10:32 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Holly Neil posted: the reason that she is doing what she’s doing is
>> “BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY FACED AND ENDURED TOGETHER, DURING
>> THE LAST UNSPEAKABLE MOMENTS OF THEIR LIVES.”
Yes… but I’m not sure her ‘rant’ there ever stated that was the reason for her doing EVERYTHING she was doing.
All she was doing there was responding to the fact that she did NOT use her ‘real name’ on her initial emails she was sending to ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg, when she wanted him to AMEND and/or CHANGE the ‘ADOSH Investigation Report’ to ( in her words ) “leave a more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC”.
She was only ( apparently ) trying to explain WHY she was signing emails to ADOSH as simply “A FAN of GMIHC” ( which, itself, belied her bias and her agenda with regards to what she wanted ADOSH to do ).
What this Holly Neill person recently said is below. It includes the part where she was implying that firefighters are, of course, the only people on the planet who could possibly ever know anything about Duty, Respect… or Integrity…
————————————————————————————————
On June 1, 2016 at 3:49 pm, Holly Neill said…
After the fatalities occurred I often called myself one of Granite Mountain’s greatest fans, for one reason and one reason only: Because of what those men faced and endured during the last 10 minutes of their lives.
Duty-Respect-Integrity. You ought to look up the meaning.
Oh that’s right, you’ve never been a firefighter, you can’t be expected to understand or apply the meaning.
I’ll say it again, so you get it:
My name is Holly Neill and I am a SUPER FAN of GMIHC, and I always will be…
BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY FACED AND ENDURED TOGETHER,
DURING THE LAST UNSPEAKABLE MOMENTS OF THEIR LIVES.
————————————————————————————————-
SIDENOTE: With regards to the ‘DRI’ thing… if the kind of ‘Duty, Respect and Integrity’ that ( apparently ) only Firefighters ‘know about’ ( and that Holly Neill seemed to be referring to ) is the same DRI that Brendan Mcdonough possessed, and causes one to WITHHOLD information from accident investigators… or the kind of DRI that JP Vicente possessed which caused HIM to purposely ignore repeated warnings about ‘trespassing’ and resulted in a property owner having to call the POLICE to have him physically REMOVED from said property… then yea… you can count me ‘content’ to not be considered part of THAT ‘Duty, Respect and Integrity’ cabal.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Really? Notwithstanding all the alleged extraneous pressure and
>> influence on these trained and experienced, grown men, they did
>> it to themselves, nobody held a gun to their heads and made them
>> leave the safe black on the YH Fire on 30 June 2013.
That will always be a true statement.
I’m still a little ‘queasy’ with her saying she is a ‘SUPER FAN” of GM because of (supposedly) just those final 10 minutes of their lives… and because they suffered (quote) “unspeakable moments”.
I’m not sure that’s anywhere near the right word to use there… unless part of what she means is that she, herself, is somehow super-proud none of them were ( as Mike Dudley said ) “rabbits”… and that they all ‘stuck together’ and whatnot.
It just doesn’t seem anywhere near the right WORD to use there ( SUPER-FAN? ).
Jut seems like a WEIRD word/phrase choice.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The HS Supts. that I talked with that were there on the HS2 Fire, stated
>> that Marsh was the DIVS in spite of what Holly Neil says or IQCS records.
And… just as with David Provencio’s email itself… there’s little reason to believe they would be saying that unless that is what they truly believed was the case.
And don’t forget the other comments that appeared on the same article that Holly Neill was commenting on. ‘Jon’ is also CONFIRMING what Provencio said in his email to SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley…
On May 22, 2016 at 12:29 pm, Jon said…
As I had talked with two hotshot crew bosses and marsh….I caught wind of the unsafe practices and animosity and the written of history of the crew…this was before the burnover…..never brought it up till now.
On May 24, 2016 at 10:11 pm, Martininsocal said…
Unfortunately, this is not the first time something like this has happened. It is a replay of something very similar in 1966. The crew dynamics that played a part in the Loop Fire seem like a ghost from the past here. Just missing the berets.
On May 22, 2016 at 11:49 am, Pat Byrnes said…
John Dougherty’s article here seems to be following a similar line to Kyle Dickman’s book, in which Dickman seems to think he understood Eric Marsh’s frame of mind and considered Marsh aggressive, or was willing to entertain the idea that Eric Marsh felt he had a lot to prove in the face of critics or threats to his crew.
On May 20, 2016 at 5:27, Sharm Jenson said…
If Eric Marsh has a documented history of ignoring safety protocol, that is important information.. SOMEONE ordered his men off the safety of the black into a very dangerous trap to save time getting to the ranch. Apparently those who cling to the hero story don’t want to accept the fact that it’s VERY possible that many men died a preventable death due to human error and recklessness. If so, this tragedy could save lives in the future… If only these men said ‘no’, the order was too dangerous. They would be home today. The truth isn’t always pretty. It is what it is. If they were alive, they would want the truth to be clear. THAT would be a hero and I believe the victims of this tragedy will NOT rest until the truth is known.
On May 20, 2016 at 8:04 am, William Riggles said…
The Forest Service investigation concluded that nobody did anything wrong and that all actions taken by Yarnell wildfire supervisors and the Granite Mountain crew were reasonable and appropriate. This approach makes it O.K. to make the same mistakes in the future!
On May 21, 2016 at 11:34 am, The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive said…
The ‘risk a lot to save a lot’ terminology should NEVER, EVER, have been brought into, or utilized in, the wildland world….
On May 22, 2016 at 6:43 pm, George Atwood said…
The conclusion of the investigation can only be that it’s acceptable practice to leave a safe “black” area at the peak of the burning period to walk down canyon into a narrow gulch with brush over your head, no eyes on the fire, and thunderstorms building nearby. Those investigators have committed a great dis-service against the wildland Fire community. They clearly served the highest needs of upper management and attorneys, not firefighters. It’s maddening. But what would we expect? These aren’t leaders! Even if they spent some time in Fire, these are managers, not leaders. We know there’s a big difference.
May 20, 2016 at 5:33 pm, Sharm Jenson said…
The investigation should be reopened with all pertinent facts taken into consideration. Some survivors are VERY hostile to this idea.
May 19, 2016 at 7:51 pm, Warren Harris said…
I will always wonder why.
On April 15, 2016… Amanda Marsh said…
I want the Yarnell Hill Fire to be studied for the TRUTH of what happened so that future fighters can learn.
( Continued next Reply )…
( Continued from previous message )…
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Neil posted: “Marsh was not assigned Division Supervisor as stated,
>> but was assigned Crew Boss (CRWB) on Horseshoe 2 fire in 2011.
>> There are no records or sources* to indicate that Eric Marsh was
>> assigned Division Supervisor.
>>
>> *SAIT: H: Qualifications: Master Record: Eric Marsh: pg 335
>> *Crew Fire Record 2011: Eric Marsh: pg 340
>> *Other: personnel recollections and payroll records.”
>>
>> So what! Just because Marsh’s HS2 Fire experience is showing
>> as CRWB means nothing to me. Errors occur frequently in those
>> records as evidenced below on the inaccurate location.
Yes. I already posted that information that even just 1 page above the work records Holly Neill was quoting… the same ‘records’ are WRONG about what Marsh’s assignment really was on the ‘2008 Rich Fire’ on the Plumas National Forest, Region 5.
Marsh was most certainly a ‘DIVS(t)’ for his entire time on that fire ( according to his DIVS taskbook )… but the same document and the same records Neill was quoting say he was only a ‘CRWB’ on the ‘Rich’ fire.
And before anyone says… yea… but if he was just a ‘DVIS(t)’ that didn’t change his official working status in the fire records… then I refer you, again, to the SAME records where Marsh was working other fires as a ‘DIVS(t)’. Some ( but not all ) of those other ‘DIVS(t)’ assignments ARE accurately indicated in these same ‘work’ records being quoted by Neill.
So it appears to definitely be a ‘hit or miss’ situation with these ‘work/fire records’.
Sometimes those ‘work records’ can be trusted… but sometimes NOT.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Just because the Type I IC claimed otherwise doesn’t mean much. They are
>> often distant from what goes on in the operational aspects. And he was
>> likely saying that as CYA.
Case in point… Yarnell Hill Fire ‘Incident Commander’ Roy Hall.
Small fire ‘organizationally speaking’… ( only 2 Divisions defined )… yet even he was ( apparently ) clueless about who was actually serving as a ‘DIVS’ on his own fire that Sunday.
IC Roy Hall was interviewed by ADOSH twice.
First on August 16, 2013, and then again October 15, 2013.
At NO TIME during either of those interviews did he give ADOSH any indication he had any idea WHO the ‘Division Supervisors’ were on his own fucking fire.
He told ADOSH that was completely up to ‘Operations’ and he (quote) “doesn’t get involved in that”.
Roy Hall was, apparently totally unaware someone named ‘Rance Marquez’ was even on his fire… much less one of his ‘Division Supervisors’… and the evidence also suggests that Roy Hall had no frickin’ idea that even Eric Marsh had been ‘field promoted’ to DIVS ( by OPS1 Todd Abel ) until AFTER he heard about the deployment.
From Roy Hall’s ADOSH interview, August 16, 2013
————————————————————————————-
549 Q2: So, um, did y’all – at the briefing did y’all actually do any, uh, operational
550 assignments there or did that happen after – after the briefing with Todd Abel
551 and Paul Musser?
552
553 A: We – yes, after.
554
555 Q2: After?
556
557 A: After. We did not cover any operational assignments during that briefing.
558 And, uh – and – and just pointed them to Todd and Paul…
559
560 Q2: Okay.
561
562 A: …for a breakout. After – after the fact. At that point and time you know it
563 was – we were just getting organized on where the divisions might be and…
564
565 Q2: Right.
566
567 A: …and the breaks and – and the – and there was to be two divisions, I do
568 remember that. And – and Paul and Todd – I don’t get involved in that.
569
570 Q2: Right.
571
572 A: I let them do that.
—————————————————————————————-
The ONLY time Roy Hall even ever mentions Eric Marsh’s NAME in either one of his ADOSH interviews is when Hall was asked directly by ADOSH if Hall even knew Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were THERE that day.
Roy Hall said he WAS aware they were, at least, THERE… and he says he remembered ‘seeing’ Eric Marsh at that early morning ( 7:30 AM ish ) meeting at the Yarnell Fire Station… but he didn’t talk to Marsh at all. He ( Hall ) didn’t even really know him ( Marsh ) all that well.
It was only after Roy Hall noticed that Marsh was then ABSENT from the major ‘briefing’ a little later, at 9:00 AM up at the Model Creek School ICP, that he asked Todd Abel what happened to them. Hall says he just wanted to make sure they had been ‘briefed’… by SOMEONE ( anyone ).
OPS1 Todd Abel assured IC Roy Hall that Eric Marsh had been briefed before heading out for that ‘anchor point’ assignment… and that was the end of that conversation.
OPS1 Todd Abel ( apparently ) never even mentioned the fact that he, himself, had ‘field promoted’ Eric Marsh to DIVS ( which required Jesse Steed to take the GM Crew for the day ).
Roy Hall didn’t really find ANY of that out until there was news of the deployment.
So there’s that.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> IMT overhead often assign HS Supts as interim operational overhead,
>> especially DIVS, as evidenced by the YH Fire.
Exactly. See above.
If the deployment hadn’t happened… it’s likely that IC Roy Hall would have actually NEVER really known that Eric Marsh had been a ‘DIVS’ on his own fire that day.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> She posted: “The planning and decision process was led by the
>> Type 1 Operations Section Chief, Branch Director and Division Supervisor.”
>>
>> During these kinds of tough operations the HS Supts are ALWAYS included
>> in this planning process. Often, it’s them that come up with the idea first.
Again… as demonstrated in Yarnell.
We know that Darrell Willis TOLD Marsh, at 6:00 AM on Sunday and in that phone call that Marsh placed to Willis ( who had already been in Yarnell since the previous night ) that…
“Someone needs to get an anchor on this thing”.
Sure enough… when Eric Marsh then found himself standing in the parking lot of the Yarnell Hill Fire Station, circa 7:30 AM, he told Todd Abel the same thing…
“Someone needs to get an anchor on this thing”.
Todd Abel described that ‘conversation’ to ADOSH as a ‘mutual agreement’ that “Someone needs to get an anchor on this thing”… but for all intents and purposes it does look like THAT ‘Operational Plan’ was, in fact, originating from Type 1 IHC Superintendent Eric Marsh… and OPS1 Todd Abel just ended up ‘agreeing’ to that ‘plan’.
And the rest is now history.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Notice that the IQCS “record” incorrectly shows CNF, the CORONADO
>> NF, near Tucson, as the Coconino NF near Flagstaff, BOTH times!
Yes. That’s why you can’t fully trust these ‘work records’.
Sometimes… Garbage IN… Garbage OUT.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You (WTKTT) posted: “It ended up with actual “Turn Down Documents”
>> being generated.”
>>
>> NEGATIVE, not unless they filed a SAFENET.
>> No Operational SAFENETS were filed for the HS2 Fire.
>>
>> Holly Neil and you seem to think that just because there is a documented
>> ‘record’ of something happening, that it did hzppen.
>>
>> Such is NOT the case.
Copy that.
So what do YOU think David Provencio was actually referring to, then, when he told SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley he had WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION regarding ALL of the ‘incidents’ he was referring to… and not just the one incident on the Horseshoe 2 Fire?
Unit Logs?
After Action Review reports?
Diary notes?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And then there is this gem: “The following link is to a letter and certificate
>> of commendation from the Southwest Area Incident Management Team,
>> to The Granite Mountain IHC for their professional work ethic, commitment
>> to safety and exceptional performance on the Horseshoe 2 fire:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5LiZw3EBzOWdnU3MlJSY2k0bDg
>> I can assure you that every Crew on that fire received an identical letter.
>> And the same goes for other Crews and Overhead on other Type I IMT fires.
>>
>> It’s what they do.
It remains ODD that this ‘certificate’ that Holly Neill was suddenly linking to is nowhere to be found in the official GM personnel and fire records that the City of Prescott was required to supply to the ADOSH investigators.
There are all kinds of Xerox copies of all kinds of ‘Certificates’ and ‘Awards’… but nothing that even resembles that ‘letter’ for the Horseshoe 2 fire… or for their work on ANY OTHER fire.
If Darrell Willis had one ( or more ) of these ‘glowing’ letters of praise for ‘Granite Mountain’ in his possession… it seems odd that he would not have made SURE that copies of them were included along with everything else the City of Prescott was supplying to the ADOSH investigators.
Is it possible that Dugger Hughes actually COMPOSED the letter… but then never got around to actually SENDING it to GM and/or the City of Prescott Fire Department?
Dugger Hughes’ letter was composed to Darrell Willis ( and NOT Eric Marsh )… and had the following TARGET mailing address in the top left…
———————————————————————————————-
Prescott Fire Department
Wildland Fire Division
2086 Willow Creek Rd.
Prescott, AZ 86305
Dear Chief Willis….
( body of letter )
Sincerely
SIGNED: Dugger Hughes – June 4, 2011
Incident Commander ( Horseshoe 2 Fire, Coronado National Forest )
———————————————————————————————–
Also… am I the only one who thinks it’s also a little ‘odd’ that this LETTER from Dugger Hughes to Darrell Willis is DATED ‘June 4, 2011’… when Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshots were actually STILL WORKING the ‘Horseshoe 2’ fire until ‘June 6, 2011’?
How often do these boiler-plate ‘Letters of Thanks’ actually arrive back at someone’s home base BEFORE they have even FINISHED working the same damn fire?
WTKTT,
You posted: “So what do YOU think David Provencio was actually referring to, then, when he told SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley he had WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION regarding ALL of the ‘incidents’ he was referring to… and not just the one incident on the Horseshoe 2 Fire?
Unit Logs?
After Action Review reports?
Diary notes?”
I don’t know what written documentation he is referring to. It could be any one of those you listed.
ALL these letters are sent to one’s supervisor and then you get it through the chain of command. The WFF world is quasi military, remember.
As far as the GMHS HS2 Fire letter date being before they’re even done with the assignment, I don’t know. It could be something as innocent and benign as a minor error that wasn’t noticed in the editing.
I would avoid making much more about it. Mouse nuts as far as I’m concerned.
Followup…
On June 6, 2016 at 6:08 pm, WTKTT said…
>> :: Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on June 5, 2016 at 10:32 pm
>>
>> :: RTS said…
>> :: WTKTT,
>> :: Holly Neil posted: the reason that she is doing what she’s doing is
>> :: “BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY FACED AND ENDURED TOGETHER, DURING
>> :: THE LAST UNSPEAKABLE MOMENTS OF THEIR LIVES.”
>>
>> Yes… but I’m not sure her ‘rant’ there ever stated that was the reason for
>> her doing EVERYTHING she was doing.
>>
>> All she was doing there was responding to the fact that she did NOT use
>> her ‘real name’ on her initial emails she was sending to ADOSH lead
>> investigator Marshall Krotenberg, when she wanted him to AMEND
>> and/or CHANGE the ‘ADOSH Investigation Report’ to ( in her words )
>> “leave a more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC”.
>>
>> She was only ( apparently ) trying to explain WHY she was signing emails
>> to ADOSH as simply “A FAN of GMIHC” ( which, itself, belied her bias and
>> her agenda with regards to what she wanted ADOSH to do ).
Holly Neill wasn’t just ‘signing’ her initial emails to ADOSH investigator Marshall Krotenberg with the cryptic “A FAN of GMIHC” signature… she was also masking the ‘From:’ field in the emails and making it sound like the email was coming from someone directly involved with the GM IHC organization.
Here again is that complete ‘initial’ email that Holly Neill sent to ADOSH investigator Marshall Krotenberg…
From PUBLIC evidence folder…
/ ADOSH / Dropbox / Notes and Emails / Krotenberg / N9589 January 2014.pdf
PDF page 2 ( of 11 pages )
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 7:18 PM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: question about GMIHC
Hello Marshall,
I have been researching the Yarnell Hill Fire. I am a retired wildland firefighter.
I need to ask you a question. If evidence exists that would correct the errors reportedly made by Marsh/GMIHC would you be interested in knowing about it? What would be the outcome to this? Would you be able to print an addendum to the report to add clarity and additional details to the original report? The goal would be to give the Families and the WFF community the TRUTH so that we can all move forward, heal and apply lessons learned that are clearly based on the actual circumstances.
At this point I would like to know if an addendum is even possible, especially considering the litigation climate? Or is your report considered complete and closed and unable to be revised?
Please advise on the ADOSH position on this kind of thing and if you would be open to talking with me.
Thank you, a fan of GMIHC
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc
Signed: a fan of GMIHC
So it wasn’t just that she was SIGNING the emails as a fan of GMIHC, she was also making it appear as if the email itself was coming from someone officially associated with the “GM IHC” organization itself ( From: Gm Ihc ).
When she was allowed to make her case to ADOSH for CHANGING and/or AMENDING the actual ‘ADOSH Investigation Report’ to ( in her words ) “…leave a more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC”, she was basing her ‘change requests’ on ( among other things ) THREE different ‘assumptions’…
1. That Marsh said “I’m at the house” at 4:13 PM, and this automatically meant he was physically present at the Boulder Springs Ranch.
2. Just because 2 of Christopher MacKenzie’s photos show ‘sawyers’ appearing to exit the RIGHT side of the frame of his camera ( while Christopher was facing NORTHEAST ), this automatically means that they were leaving the ‘rest area’ and heading SOUTH towards the Boulder Springs Ranch… at the same time the photos were taken ( prior to 1550 ).
NOTE: It has since been proven that these ‘sawyers’ did NOT leave the area at that time. They are seen in other photos taken later at the ‘final rest spot’ up from where they had been working on the slope.
3. That Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed somehow didn’t even receive the critical Byron Kimball 1530 ( 3:30 PM ) weather update until 1550 ( 3:50 PM ), and that Jesse Steed didn’t even begin to discuss it with Brendan McDonough down on his lookout mound until AFTER that time.
She used her claims/beliefs (1) and (2) to then make the following assertions…
From her ‘analysis’ document itself that she eventually emailed to ADOSH…
This section of her ‘analysis also included the direct ADOSH / WFA and
SAIR report references that she was now claiming her ‘new evidence’ refutes…
————————————————————————————–
WFA: pg. 40: 5. Post lookouts whenever there is possible danger.
GMIHC posted a lookout when they were building direct handline.
However, GMIHC did not have a lookout posted during their descent to the safety zone.
Holly Neill: If Marsh is at the house at 1615, then HE is the lookout.
He can see the fire, smoke, etc. and he has eyes on the fire for the crew’s descent.
WFA: pg 40: 4. Identify escape routes and safety zones, and make them known.
We could find no evidence that they timed or improved the escape route to the
Boulder Springs Ranch.
Holly Neill: If Marsh had made his way down to the BSR by 1614, then he timed the escape route. Mackenzie photo evidence shows some GM sawyers mobilize and moved south before the rest of the crew. A plug of burned flagging was found at the top of deployment valley in November, missed by the SAIT. This flagging could indicate that this route was marked. It seems reasonable that Marsh would have scouted, marked and timed the route down. The sawyers coming down behind him could have improved the route.
SAIR Pg. 49: We also know the crew would lose awareness of the fire’s location and rate of spread for short time while they descended from the ridge.
Holly Neill: If Marsh is down at the ranch house first, he keeps awareness of the fire’s location and ROS. Steed and Co. have eyes on the fire until they began their descent.
Marsh becomes the lookout.
————————————————————————————–
So that’s an awful lot of ‘assuming’ to do just based on thinking you hear just the one word ‘house’ in a background radio transmission… but such was Holly Neill’s intent… to REFUTE all evidence that there had been no ‘lookout’ posted and that the escape route had NOT been FULLY ‘scouted’, ‘timed’ and ‘improved’ that afternoon… like good little Hotshots are SUPPOSED to do.
She made no mention of the fact that even if all those ‘assumptions’ of hers were true… that would mean that Eric Marsh himself obviously FAILED his responsibilities as a ‘forward lookout’ in a horrific manner.
She then used her claims/beliefs (2) and (3) to then make the following assertions…
From her ‘analysis’ document itself that she eventually emailed to ADOSH…
This section of her ‘analysis also included the direct SAIT / SAIR report
references that she was now claiming her ‘evidence’ refutes…
————————————————————————————–
SAIR Pg. 49: While we do not know exactly what time the Granite Mountain IHC headed southeast from their fire line, it is clear that they were in a place where they observed fire behavior for at least 30 minutes after receiving the last update.
Holly Neill: WRONG. According to the Mackenzie photos and video, some GM sawyers were mobilized and moving south at 1552, just TWO MINUTES after receiving the WX at 1550. The rest of the crew left at 1604, 14 minutes after receipt of the WX.
SAIR: pg. 38: As the crew reached the descent point at about 1620: The weather in the update had not materialized at their location and the update was about 50 minutes old.
Holly Neill: Marsh/Steed confirmed receipt of the WX at 1550 and this is when the WX is relayed to McDonough.
————————————————————————————–
McDonough had already been completely ‘rescued’ and ‘delivered’ ( by Brian Frisby ) back to where the GM Superintendent and Chase trucks were parked at the top of the Sesame Clearing area by 1549 ( 3:49 PM ) that afternoon.
We know that the actual TIMING on that now looks pretty much like this…
———————————————————————————
1527:00 – Frisby and Brown are still stationary ( according to GPS ) at the WEST end of the ‘Cutover Trail’ ( according to Brown’s GPS location data ).
1528:00 – Eric Marsh requests second face-to-face with Brian Frisby.
1528:30 – Trueheart Brown gets his ‘gear’ out of the Ranger and starts hiking EAST on Cutover Trail.
1529:00 – Brian Frisby departs in the BR Polaris Ranger to meet up with Marsh.
1529:51 – Byron Kimball begins his weather report over the TAC 1 radio channel.
(Byron Kimball): “As per ( US National ) Weather Service ( slight pause )… within the half-hour,
(pause) EAST winds. (pause) Possibility of as high as 50 miles an hour or likely 25 (pause)
definitely 25, 35 gusting 40 (pause) east / northeast within the half hour. Um… the
outpoint to outflow line also ( will be ) located…”
( Video capturing radio traffic ends at 1530:14 and the rest of the weather report is cut off )
1530:00 – Brown ‘pauses’ on his hike EAST and ‘stands still’ to listen to Kimball’s weather report.
1531.00 – Byron Kimball has now finished his weather report over the TAC 1 radio channel.
1531:30 – Brown resumes his hike EAST after finishing listening to Kimball’s weather report.
1532:00 – Frisby is still heading towards Marsh and Brown is still hiking EAST on ‘Cutover Trail’.
1533:00 – Immediately following the ‘weather advisory’, Jesse calls Brendan to pass the
information on to Brendan ( who did not hear it )… and they then decide ( together ) that
Brendan needs to ‘evaluate where he is’.
1534:00 – Brendan told ADOSH that winds started ‘picking up’ right after the ‘weather advisory’.
1535:00 – Brendan and Steed decide ( together ) that Brendan needs to leave lookout spot.
1536:00 – Brendan starts his 3 minute walk down from his lookout spot.
1539:00 – Brendan finishes his walk down and emerges at ‘T’ section.
1539:30 – Brendan considers deployment options and then gets ready to call Frisby.
1540:00 – Frisby accidentally comes across Brendan at the ‘T’ section.
1540:30 – Frisby talks with Marsh over intra-crew using radio Brendan handed him.
1540:45 – Frisby calls Brown and tells him to get drivers to move vehicles.
1541:00 – Brown does his ‘about face’ on Cutover trail in response to Frisby’s request.
1541:30 – Jesse Steed gives ‘tools up’ order and GM starts to assemble in the safe black.
1542:08 – DIVSA Eric Marsh reports ( on TAC 1 ) that the fire has now burned through
the middle-bowl retardant line that had been laid earlier in the day at the direction of
Air Attack / Lead Plane ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ), and it is heading
(quote) “towards the structures… uh… (pause) southern… uh… (pause) into Yarnell”.
1542:14 – Immediately following Marsh’s report that the fire is now headed “towards the
structures” and “into Yarnell”… OPS2 Paul Musser calls Eric Marsh ( on TAC 1 ) asking
about GM’s “availability” and whether GM is still “committed to the RIDGE”. OPS2 Paul
Musser made this radio call at 1542:14 from where he was supervising structure protection
operations on Sickles Ranch Road, up on the NORTH side of the fire. OPS2 Paul
Musser would not be seen heading towards Yarnell for another 9 minutes, when
his dark-blue 2-door pickup would be photographed by the Panebaker Air-Study team
passing their camera location on Hays Ranch Road at exactly 1551 ( 3:51 PM ).
————————————————————————————-
**
** HOTSHOT BOOT CAMP HAS STARTED FOR THE MOVIE ACTORS
Well… it looks like it is confirmed now.
The Kosinski “Granite Mountain” movie will be shot mostly in New Mexico, and not Arizona, and it looks like ‘principal photography’ is getting close to starting there.
The actors playing the Granite Mountain Hotshots have, apparently, already entered in some kind of ‘boot camp’ to get ready for their roles.
But there is no word on who is RUNNING this ‘boot camp’… and teaching the actors how to at least look ( and act ) like ‘Hotshots’.
** THE PHOTOS
Most movie actors have groups of ‘Master Fans’, who run blogs and forums that ‘track’ their favorite screen performers.
Actor Taylor Kitsch is no exception, and his ‘master fans’ have already created a ‘blog’ for him directly related to his next movie… the Konsinski-directed “Granite Mountain” movie ( originally entitled “No Exit” like the Conde-Naste group GQ magazine article the movie is based on ).
There is now a PICTURE on that ‘blog’ of ( apparently ) 11 of the actors who will be playing 11 of the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’ ( including Josh Brolin and Miles Teller ) working out at a ‘Crossfit’ Gym facility in New Mexico.
Josh Brolin is on the far right of the photo with his arm around one of the other actors playing one of the Hotshots. Miles Teller appears to be the fellow in the ‘American Flag’ shorts. He has dyed his hair BLOND and cut it close-cropped. It’s still not been announced which ‘part’ Miles Teller is playing… but with his hair dyed blond and the buzz-cut… that probably means he is playing either Jesse Steed or Brendan McDonough.
There has also been no ‘announcement’ about exactly who actor Taylor Kitsch is playing… but his fans on this Blog think it could be either Andrew Ashcraft or Travis Carter.
Apparently ( according to this FanBlog ), Director Kosinski is using the ‘boot camp’ approach ( similar to what other actors did for the movie ‘Lone Survivor’ some years ago ) and the actors are already ‘submerging’ themselves in a crash ‘Crossfit’ fitness program and a ‘Hotshot Boot Camp’ in order to prepare for their roles in the movie.
No word yet about whether the actors are going to be forced to dance with “Pukie the Clown” like
Jesse Steed continually made the actual GM Hotshots do.
There is also a PICTURE that is lined from Miles Teller’s own ‘Twitter’ feed where, on June 2, 2016 at 5:07 PM… Actor Miles Teller simply Tweeted “And so it begins…”. The PHOTO is of a white truck with the ‘Granite Mountain’ title and logos painted on the back.
There is also a copy of a ‘Selfie’ style PICTURE that actor Josh Brolin himself posted to his own Instagram account just 3 days ago.. which he supposedly took in Sante-Fe, New Mexico, at the residence where he and his fiance’ have now ‘set up shop’ for the near future.
The COMMENT and TAGS that Josh Brolin put on the photo are…
joshbrolin: New look
#wavetoyourlocalfirefightertoday
#youareyourcountry
#implementgoodnow
#beimpassioned
All of these PICTURES ( and all the other posts about how things are already underway there in New Mexico ) are on the following ‘FanForum’ page…
http://www.fanforum.com/f309/%5Bno-exit-granite-mountain%5D-thread-1-we-cant-wait-see-taylor-firefighter-63171824/index4.html
The ‘fans’ on this Blog are saying they are basically going to ‘stalk’ the production and try to get as many in-production photos as they can as the summer goes on.
TRIVIA NOTE: That ‘other’ movie called ‘Lone Survivor’ that used the ‘Boot Camp’ approach to prepare the actors for their roles was, coincidentally, also filmed in and around Sante-Fe, New Mexico.
WTKTT,
I looked up Lone Survivor and remembered it coming out. It got 75% on the tomato meter. This review is a good summary of my expectations for the Granite Mountain film:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/19/the-myth-of-reality-in-lone-survivor.html
Basically, according to the reviewer, they took a perfectly heroic but tragic true story and added a mess of Holywood tripe to tart up the ending.
Reply to Muzzy post on June 6, 2016 at 2:11 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Basically, according to the reviewer, they took a perfectly
>> heroic but tragic true story and added a mess of
>> Holywood tripe to tart up the ending.
Not sure how they could ‘tart this one’ up all that much.
This one was a bona-fide ‘National Historic Tragedy’.
We KNOW what happens even before buying the popcorn.
The ONLY reason I am ‘watching the InterWeb airwaves’ on this one is to see if there is any indication what the script is REALLY like… and what ‘decisions’ might have been made for the movie with regards to the critical ‘decision making’.
The ACTORS are starting to comment on ‘social media’, of course ( they can’t help themselves )… and these ‘actor people’ have all ( by now ) supposedly read the ACTUAL script.
So I’m watching for any ‘hints’ about what ‘decisions’ might have been made with regards to certain moments in the ‘story’.
The original GQ “No Exit” article, which was the ‘origin’ for this Kosinski project, just gave most of the important decision-making moments a ‘clear miss’.
But the movie won’t be able to do that.
Unless the move just fades to black with Steed and the men still sitting there taking pictures of the fire at 3:50 PM… the movie is going to HAVE to make some ‘decisions’ about what went down that day.
Example: Like exactly where Eric Marsh WAS in the final 30 minutes, and how he ended up actually dying with Steed and the others.
But so far… between Miles Teller wearing his ‘American Flag’ shorts for the workouts and Josh Brolin himself bascially starting his own ‘flag waving’ on his own social media outlets… it looks like it really is just going to be “…and they were being good little Hotshots and the big-bad-fire just came and got them… roll credits”.
** ACTOR JOSH BROLIN HAS ALREADY BEEN IN YARNELL
2 weeks ago… actor Josh Brolin was in Yarnell itself, and he shot a VIDEO while he was there ( and subsequently has posted it to his PUBLIC Instagram account ).
NOTE: Instagram is, apparently, actor Josh Brolin’s social media ‘tool of choice’ and he does, in fact, do his own postings there. Matter of fact.. Brolin appears to be an ‘Instagram ADDICT’. He posts something at least EVERY DAY and sometimes 3 or 4 times in the same day.
When Josh Brolin arrived in Yarnell ( alone? ) two weeks ago…. he drove down Shrine Road, and to the parking lot of the Shrine of St. Joseph, right there were the pavement of Shrine Road turns into ‘dirt’ as it continues out WEST towards where the Youth Camp used to be.
He obviously sort of ‘visited’ the Shrine of St. Joseph itself… because he ends up at the very top of that high mound and pile of boulders on the SOUTH side of the Shrine of St. Joseph property itself.
He then climbed up onto that pile of boulders that is there on the Shrine of St. Joseph property and shot a selfie-VIDEO.
That is the video he to his Instagram account about 2 weeks ago.
Brolin is ‘all alone’ while he is shooting this ‘selfie-VIDEO’ ( meaning… he is holding his smartphone out and shooting video BACK at himself )
There is absolutely no one else around or standing at that location with him while he is shooting this video. His fiance’ and/or some other people might have travelled to Yarnell with him… but when he climed up onto that mound to the SOUTH of the Shrine of St. Joseph… he was totally ALONE.
He never speaks while he is shooting his selfie-VIDEO.
It’s just a silent 360 degree ‘pan around’ from the top of that mound.
Josh Brolin was standing exactly here when he shot this 360 degree video. At the very START of the video… Brolin is in ‘close-up’ on the RIGHT side of the video, and box canyon where the Granite Mountain Hotshots died is in the distance, occupying the LEFT side of the video.
Soon after the video starts… Brolin starts ‘turnin around’ to his right ( to the NORTH ) and he takes a full 360 video of the view from the spot where he is standing. You can see some of the houses that didn’t burn on Shrine Road down below him as he pans back towards Yarnell. The video ends up back where he started… looking WEST and out towards the deployment site area ( but he over-rotates just a little towards the end ).
Brolin was standing exactly HERE when he shot this 360-pan-around selfie VIDEO…
34.226106, -112.753608
And here is the DIRECT LINK to the selfie-VIDEO Josh Brolin took in Yarnell…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BFsfTGtkT8Z/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
The ‘Comment’ Brolin left along with the video when he posted it on his PUBLIC Instagram account reads as follows…
joshbrolin: Yarnell, AZ. RIP 19: Granite Mountain Hotshots. Respectfully.
41 comments have been made on Brolin’s video since he posted it 2 weeks ago.
The comments range from the respectul, like additional “RIP Granite Mountain” comments, to the inane… such as “Is that the place where the shootout had occurred in ‘No Country For Old Man’?”.
Muzzy,
Thanks for that.
My take away quote from the review you posted:
“What this does is tell us that even when Hollywood has one of the most dramatic true human stories, it can’t tell the truth. This film is still, in the end, a biopic and should have been careful of distorting what is already public knowledge.”
Crossing my fingers that doesn’t happen with “Granite Mountain,” but I won’t hold my breath because, well…I really like breathing.
Woodsman… see next comment below. As it turns out… at the same moment they changed the title of the movie from “No Exit” ( the same title as the original GQ article by Sean Flynn )… they have also apparently thrown that original GQ article author Sean Flynn ‘under the bus’.
The IMDB page for the movie is no longer mentioning Sean Flynn or the GQ article at all…and they have suddenly added another screeenwriter ( a good friend of Brolin’s ) to the list of ‘credits’ along with screenwrite Ken Nolan ( Blackhawk down ).
So maybe they actually decided there was no way they were going to get away with making a movie just based on that original piece-of-shit article that appeared in GQ magazine.
Maybe ( just maybe? ) they realized that at least HAD to include ‘evidence’ that has emerged SINCE that GQ article was written.
Finger crossed? ( but not too tightly? ).
Actors are just actors.
They are PAID to just speak the lines that have been written FOR them… and to “tell the story” they are being TOLD to tell.
So I’m not checking the ‘InterWeb’ for any great revelations on any ‘actor fan page’ or anything like that… but there DOES remain the fact that have all most likely ALREADY read the script itself… and they might let something ‘slip’ about what’s really in it… and what ‘decisions’ have been made in the script itself.
Followup…
The original GQ article called “No Exit” had ( among other errors ) shit in it like author Sean Flynn stating Jesse Steed and the GM crew were completely ‘in the black’ the whole time they were hiking SOUTH on the two-track trail and towards the box canyon. He was totally basing that on a line in the original SAIR which reported someone saying on the radio “We’re picking our way through the black out towards our escape route”.
So obviously if the MOVIE sticks with that kind of bullshit ( and all the other factual ERRORS in the original GQ article )… well… what can I say.
But there is actually a new ‘mystery’ that has cropped up with regards to this movie, and whether it ( now ) really is still based on the error-filled GQ magazine article.
For the longest time… there have been only TWO ‘authors’ being listed as having anything to do with the ‘screenplay’ for this Yarnell movie.
Original GQ magazine “No Exit” article author Sean Flyn, and ‘Blackhawk Down’ screenwriter Ken Nolan.
But all of a sudden… now that the name of the movie has been CHANGED from “No Exit” ( the original Sean Flynn GQ article title ) to simply “Granite Mountain”… none of the online blurbs are mentioning author ‘Sean Flynn’ anymore and a THIRD author’s name is now getting ‘billing’ as having co-authored the actual movie script.
NOW all we are seeing is…
Screenwriter Ken Nolan ( Blackhawk down )
and now… just recently… a THIRD author being credited…
Screenwriter Eric Singer ( American Hustle ).
Even the new IMDB page for this “Granite Mountain” movie now makes absolutely NO mention of original GQ magazine article author Sean Flynn.
So what’s up with that?
Does that mean Director Joseph Kosinski has thrown original author Sean Flynn under the bus… and the screenplay is no longer based on that GQ article at all?
Since they also threw the original project name of “No Exit” under the bus as well, that would appear to be the case.
I wonder if that came out of some SERIOUS disagreements… because of new evidence revealed since Sean Flynn wrote his article… about the actual “story” that should be told.
Maybe Josh Brolin himself had a lot to do with throwing original author Sean Flynn under the bus. The ‘sudden’ NEW screenwriter that was added is a long-time friend of Josh Brolin’s.
Just 2 days ago… Eric Singer and Josh Brolin appeared together on Brolin’s ‘Instagram’ page.
Here is another PUBLIC Instagram posting that actor Josh Brolin made to his PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ account… just TWO DAYS ago, on June 4, 2016.
It’s a PHOTO of him and newly-added screenwrite Eric Singer ‘hugging’ each other and facing the camera… apparently in Santa Fe, New Mexico, where Brolin is known to have been since June 1 and starting his ‘Boot Camp’ for the movie.
The photo was TAKEN by Director Joseph Kosinski himself.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGNdah8kTz2/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
The comment Brolin left on THIS photo is…
joshbrolin: Me and my bud, write Eric Singer being transparent as all hell. Deep love for this dude. Photo by Joseph Kosinski.
TAGS:
#granitemountainhotshots
#allhotshots
#allfirefighters
#wavetoafirefightertoday
#bearbrothers
So does all this indicate there has been a “script war” going on… and we can no longer assume the movie that is about to be made is, in fact, in any way based on that original GQ magazine article.
I actually HOPE that is the case… because the original GQ magazine article was a total crock of shit… and at least the possible ‘rewrite’ has a chance of including all the evidence that has emerged SINCE that GQ article was first written.
Looks like the 2 books that were published last month about Yarnell continue to inflict damage…
Here’s a comment on Josh Brolin’s photo of him and “Granite Mountain” screenplay author Eric Singer ‘hugging’ each other…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGNdah8kTz2/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
——————————————————————-
Comment from: song_dog1027 – June 4, 2016 ( 2 days ago )
Just finished one of the books written about the Yarnell Fire and the Granite Mountain Hotshots. The book was beautufully written (i tagged you in a picture of the book in my page), but wow, such a horrific tragedy. I cried many times reading it. I’m glad you guys are helping people become more aware of the story of these men and their families…the courage, bravery and sacrifices.
——————————————————–
So here we have ‘actor fans’ now telling ‘actors’ they have read either the recent Fernanda Santos book OR the recent Brendan McDonough book… and they can’t WAIT to see the MOVIE NOW!
It doesn’t matter which of the books published last month that this Josh Brolin ‘fan’ is referring to. They were BOTH so full of factual errors they belonged on the ‘Pure Fiction’ shelf in the bookstore.
But this also means these ‘fans’ who can’t WAIT to see the MOVIE are now possibly going to walk of the theatre saying “What the fuck… that doesn’t match what the BOOK ( any book ) says???”
And then people will start to discuss WHY a MOVIE doesn’t resemble some BOOK they read… when the reality is that NONE of the BOOKS *OR* the MOVIE screenplay are actually ‘factual’.
Maybe that will be a GOOD thing ( in the long run ).
Once all the ‘hype’ is over… and everybody is done making their MONEY off this tragedy… people will still do a “slowly I turned” moment about what’s all been presented ( and SOLD, for MONEY ) as the ‘the truth’ about a National Historic Tragedy and the new ( ongoing ) STORY will be…
“THREE books… and now a MOVIE… and not only do they all disagree with each OTHER as to the facts… we STILL don’t really know what happened that weekend… and that tragic Sunday????….. WHAT – THE – FUCK!!!!????!!!!”
Well THAT”S a relief. I thought you were going to say that the 3rd screenwriter and replacement for Sean Flynn was Holly Neill…so dodged a bullet there. So far so good.
I agree with what you’re saying. The word is slowing getting out there (I hope?) that people are edging our way ever so slowly towards the truth and with that, exposing the falsehoods. I have been reading all over the net, probably thanks to Joy’s massive link posting lately, and I am reading more and more challenges to the narrative and good questions.
Eyes on the prize?
Woodsman – Nice turn of phrase “dodged a bullet there”. Imagine the “factual” “evidence” that would turn up in THAT movie!
WTKTT – My concern is; even if all the books and the film disagree with each other, that the “masses” will ignore the differences anyway, as for them noticing the factual errors…. unless they came here and read what you/everyone else has written (especially the bits that are as close to factual as anyone can get)… they are completely ignorant to the facts, and the process of burying what really happened is complete.
Nothing to see here, (well go and SEE the “nice” movie), now move along.
I hope I am wrong, and that the movie does start to open peoples eyes to what the US WFF’s risk, maybe people will actually ask “So what has changed since the fire to prevent this happening again?”.
Maybe as the credits roll we’ll see a statement;
“In the four years since the Yarnell Hill Fire, NOTHING has changed to prevent this happening again
It is only a matter of WHEN and not IF. “
Otis,
You said, ‘I hope I am wrong, and that the movie does start to open peoples eyes to what the US WFF’s risk, maybe people will actually ask “So what has changed since the fire to prevent this happening again?”’
I hope so, too. What I fear from what little is out there is that, as WTKTT has speculated, this film will be a man vs. nature, vs. human factors one.
I’m sure Santa Fe was chosen over Yarnell for all kinds of reasons, many logistical, political, and financial. However, The Sangre de Cristo mountains are very different from the Weavers, taller trees, more rugged, and more green. I hope they find areas that look like the boulder fields choked with dry chaparral that trapped the crew, but you must admit, a crown fire with falling snags chasing our heroes into a clearing will be more breathtaking, like a cathedral crumbling around them. Then as the camera turns to follow the crew running full out, we see what they see: a fire rising from a draw below. There won’t be much smoke as that would obscure special effects. The rest will not matter.
It’s possible that this will be a taut, intimate drama, exposing the humanity and the foibles of crew, families (remember, at IMDb, the Amanda character has top billing), and overhead, and will show the claustrophobic box canyon as it was, turning into fiery quicksand. We’ll know there’s a small town steps away, but the smoke will obscure it. It won’t look heroic, it may even look banal and stupid to die in such a place.
Which movie will sell enough tickets?
They are absolutely in NM and starting to shoot… South of Santaflush… with a county crew on standby for fire…
Do you know who the ‘Technical Consultants’ are?
There pretty much MUST be at least one ‘Hotshot’ Crew assigned to be running this “Crash Course in Hotshotting” that Brolin and the actors are currently involved in.
Or… maybe not an actual ACTIVE Hotshot Crew… but certainly some group of current and/or former Hotshots?
Just curious.
https://vimeo.com/169389077
for the newcomers—
anyone here know j.a. dolin chief american bureau of tactical support?
he was near Byron Kimball on 6-30-13 over in Peeples Valley-
why was he there?
http://aberservices.webs.com/
only found dead end here above
I got my answer. I called the number on website-
Yes the man did give Leonard Hunter a business card but nowadays he is getting geared up to prepare a course of forest survival-
he is not doing that what is on the ol site-
His duty on the YHF was to deliver from the Yarnell church to Model Creek/Bar A Ranch area supplies- so that’s that…
Bob-
I don’t “know” Holly but what I do know of her I think she would allow you back on to her facebook—other sites do not like how we discuss stuff here on IM that maybe just make fact points and that is enough—seems other sites do not care about personal or emotional opinions- or allegations or assumptions or whatever it is but the facts that can be proven but my beef with her from day one is I have to share all I knew but when it came to her I had just believe what she said with no sources just that’s it because she said it or wrote it so than it confused me was all—because I still do not get how she got that from the video that Marsh was at ranch and I had an expert look at the same video/audio and he did not get that from it and that cannot be used as without a doubt proof…but say someone on the fire told her and she never revealed the source- I would buy into that-
Joy after some more discussion on Email with her I doubt it.
She says she is in charge of Safety Matters QUOTE–I WILL NOT RUN SAFETY MATTERS LIKE IM BLOG—-and me telling here she was using it to promote her own agenda was stepping over the line. Imagine that. I have no Idea where the other members have gone that were part of the original group.
From what I gathered she has no more info or she would have posted it. She is now saying GM Captain Aaron was a DIVS trainee on Horseshoe 2 Fire. Unless I am wrong Marsh was the Superintendent in 2011. She is using red card quails as positions on the Fire which is as well crazy.
Also for all I understand no turn down protocol written paper work was filed or requested by over head. Damm convenient for them. Still do not know if something was actually written up when the crews got back to base.
I am placing a few foias out tomorrow to a four organizations and where do I do GMHS foias if it is no longer?
probably Prescott City Council—huh?
Or the FD. They were under that department. Maybe the city manager, now that they’re disbanded.
Thanks Muzzy..city manager here I go…
Hey, Joy,
How did it go?
Muzzy says
JUNE 7, 2016 AT 9:36 AM
Hey, Joy,
How did it go?
—————————————————————
(Post Number One for 6/7/16 🙂 of max Five 🙂 )
MY REPLY: Well I am not use to the doctor game world nowadays and I cannot believe how much funds I have placed out for these darn copays for this specialist (urlogist – left renal tumor and bilateral kidney stones with obstruction- an amusement park that I get free pass to enjoy them for the rest of my life- oh e- thanks to genetics (23andme.com plug 🙂 🙂 —than another specialist (colon- to go see what is obstructing that area) than I see breast surgeon this Friday to go over that area-) but that is all side note stuff to other stuff going on—like icing on a cake 🙂 but I get to spend my birthday at the neuro for my two brain tumors—what a wonderful Summer and what would the old stunt man Jack N. Young (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0949636/) say if I talked about pain…he would say he was familiar with pain but when he has it he knows he is still here and that is better than the alternative. So I just deal with it but at times vent—because it gets “OLD”—24/7.
Muzzy, to recap FOIAs-
Michelle Lee emailed me 11:23am and she is with city of Prescott (SECRETARY) and my foia goes to City Clerk’s office and for that area I provided 2 blank cds because I did ask for quite a bit on the GMHS inquiries lately like Horseshoe Fire 2 and just alot of different topics- so that was sent today and the world can watch the process like usual with usps tracking # 9114999944314838290838. Next was Raquel Cantu FOIA specialist Southwestern Region Albuquerque NM she emailed 6-6-16 15:45 and she said the information on Pete would not be Prescott dispatch and I needed to contact the Arizona State Forestry but my email was cc’d to a Barry Wallace and Kristi Sullivan so after that I printed those FOIA forms again even though I have direct email to Bill Boyd I went the slow traditional paperwork way vs email and I too sent sase blank cd to him (tracking 9114999944314838290814), Arizona Dispatch Center (Deer Valley)(tracking number 9114999944314838290821), and Fire inter-agency Center in Mesa (tracking number 9114999944314838290807)
so now Muzzy you can see how the foia world goes—you will see Arizona Forestry have always been really quick in their returns of information unless due to the public sharing…I have seen Bill Boyd like on 5-20-16 state apologies to me because he was clearing up an issue with the families’ attorney and he is very kind and communicative and I always know where I stood in the process and an excellent communicator. I can tell you he did what he said and I had the q&a documents that 5-28-13. I know I get the label as obsessed when it comes to the YHF but since the ones who do not speak I am the eyewitness looking at this YHF puzzle and trying to “look” in spots not yet covered or discussed or I really look at who emailed who in the process like seeing EN commenting “hortatory” on the 10&18/LCES and she is not even nor ever trained or had hands on line firefighting experience so how can she make that first hand comment on a public page like Holly Neill’s Safety Matters- that was odd for me Muzzy.
I look at areas most people would never touch or look; the dirty dark stale spots…I ask questions another might be like why is she asking a dumb question like that…because to me there is no dumb questions in the YHF aftermath…
I have seen higher ups and people who we the taxpayers paid to do an investigation try to pawn off saying FOR THE PRIVACY OF…but in reality what they have done is pure secrecy- and that is poor operations and in my eyes I am not satisfied with the investigation and that’s my humble way of it…they HID information on purpose…from us and ADOSH…I have seen a “need to know” angle/agenda from quite a few in this…Their poor perception of their behavior has affected the human factors in assessing the YHF because the lack of details being withheld causes human conflicts. It begins to make people who NEVER knew the GMHS or the loved ones before to think they “know” them and their situation and just because you were blessed enough to get a closer look does not MEAN that is close to “reality” what’s being shown to you…some of the loved ones do not trust not just media but anything and are just trying to grieve best way they can their loss…and so I do not buy into just because one “knows” the loved ones than that is it because if you all got to personally peak in to my world to some of the loved ones you would be floored on that journey…people grieve in their own style…Also when you have an organization that despises the social media or media press and states things like I have seen versus allowing them to dissect you and come welcome them all in—when a person jumps on the defense behavior it usually means something—and when they get criticized they also do not look into the criticism healthy minded but again gets on the defense- No matter WHO Dave P. is or Fred S. it was their duty to file the peoples accounts and INVESTIGATE all areas to come to the proper assessment not what Dudley did but in fact they chose a narrative and then filled in the blanks because there is NO reason Donut or BRHS or air attack or others should not be allowed to just in total purity be able to talk to all and everyone…MY challenging the different areas with increased vehemence is not obsessive but working through the bullshit to reach better clarity- also if we did not have the leaks of classified information then I think I would of walked away already—Honestly I feel at times I should iron my FOIA papers I get back thinking they say they said it ALL so I read it with a lot of redaction and I wonder if I apply heat if the invisible ink will pop up and there is the redaction surface through 🙂 the fundamental inefficiencies of secrecy constantly subject to failure…the most amazing thing about all this noise over the matter is the truth will prevail—leaks happen…and some day the leak might get too big…woosh!
Joy,
You said, “I look at areas most people would never touch or look; the dirty dark stale spots…I ask questions another might be like why is she asking a dumb question like that…because to me there is no dumb questions in the YHF aftermath…”
And thanks to you, the dark, dusty corners of this subject will get cleaned and organized and will finally mean something.
Also, you said, “…inefficiency of secrecy.”
I’m going to steal that. So much time wasted in hiding, in finding, in sharing. So many lives at risk for so long while this continues.
Thank you for all you do. It is appreciated.
Safety does matter—
her page is on safety
it is not really too much a discussion page on roles who played on what fire but she made a public statement she disagreed with a recent article by John Dougherty and as David Turbyfill stated they just wish their were more public reference sources—
My question though in this being Fred knows alot of fire people—did he know Dave P. before the article by John D. and has he ever spent bro-hood time with Dave P.? Did Fred know Dave P. professionally and personally? or one or the other? Or was the article about Dave P. than about Fred not a combo meal thing… I would like to know if there was a layer of angle in it myself…because there was just alot of wind like on YHF but can we challenge the wind and ask deeper questions to the men who talk about the dead…just saying…
http://ffsafetymatters.org/
Barry Hicks: U.S. Forest Service: Retired is in above link as well comments on the facebook page too.
http://www.wildlandfireassociates.com/staff/elizabeth-anderson/
this is another person tied to Holly’s Safety Matters-
https://twitter.com/ffsafetymatters
ain’t that strange WWTKTT???
above on her site it says Barry Hicks participates with Holly but then on the facebook page here
https://www.facebook.com/SafetyMattersWildlandFirefighterForum/
he stated:
Safety Matters: A Wildland Firefighter Forum for Change
5 hrs ·
Bringing this comment to post again. It is an important message about the Yarnell Hill fire investigations, and one to consider carefully.
Barry Hicks said:
I want to remind folks that there were two investigations with different results. I was a member of the ADOSH investigation team and I know what our limitations were but I am still learning of information that was withheld from us not the least of which Mike Dudley knew about and failed to share with us. There are a number of questions that remain and will take years to learn as long as the USFS refuses to let all the information be shared openly. I would hope that the USFS would change its approach and allow all their employees to talk openly without threat of retaliation. I know that both investigations had flaws but I do think the ADOSH investigation could have been more successful had they not been legally limited to 6 months to file their report.
June 3 at 5:13pm
so how is it if he was a part of her team and a part of the ADOSH did she need to file as a fan of the GMHS for foia or information??? that’s strange to me. She had a ADOSH investigator on her team????
http://www.wyofile.com/retired-firefighters-wildland-colleagues-danger/
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/–6hpInYm8bs/U_Ez7mUcbaI/AAAAAAAABbQ/LmkwYE5sPXw/s1600/LooksLikeTrouble.jpg
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 5, 2016 at 6:40 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> ain’t that strange WWTKTT???
>>
>> above on her site it says Barry Hicks participates
>> with Holly
>>
>> ( snip – Barry Hicks’ comment about how he WAS on the )
>> ( ADOSH investigation team and they KNOW that Mike )
>> ( Dudley of the SAIT was withholding information from them )
>>
>> so how is it if he was a part of her team and a part of
>> the ADOSH did she need to file as a fan of the GMHS
>> for foia or information??? that’s strange to me.
>> She had a ADOSH investigator on her team????
Joy… I have no idea what the ‘relationship’ is ( or ever was ) between Holly Neill and the person named Barry Hicks who was, in fact, one of the ADOSH investigators for the Yarnell Hill Fire…
…but just to clear something up that I *think* you just said…
When Holly Neill contacted LEAD ADOSH investigator Marshall Krotenberg and was trying to offer him her TRANSCRIPT of the Panebaker Air Study Video… and also wanted him to CHANGE or AMEND the actual ‘ADOSH Investigation Report’ to (quote) “leave a more positive legacy for the GMIHC”…
…that was NOT any kind of FOIA or ‘Arizona Open Records’ (AOR) request coming from Holly Neill to ADOSH.
That was her simply contacting ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg DIRECTLY ( via email )… and offering him this ‘evidence’ she thought she had found which ( in her mind ) can/should CHANGE the ADOSH Investigation report itself.
This was all about Holly Neill having CONVINCED herself that she was hearing Eric Marsh say “I’m at the house” in that 4:13 radio capture… and she had also convinced herself this was some kind of absolute proof that just because Eric was saying he was “at the house”… that also meant he was already at the “Boulder Springs Ranch” itself.
Holly Neill had convinced herself she had found PROOF that this meant Eric Marsh has “scouted the escape route” prior to the disaster… like a good little Hotshot.
Holly Neill was also NOT using her ‘real name’ (yet) for these intitial emails she was sending to ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg. She was just ‘feeling him out’ about the possibility of him accepting the evidence and also ( hopefully, on her part ) CHANGING or AMENDING the final ‘ADOSH Investigation Report’ to reflect these new ‘findings’ she had only *thought* she ‘found’.
ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg WAS interested in seeing what she had to offer… and the emails continued. Holly Neill then submitted both her audio files of the 4:13 Panebaker Air Study video… and then her own ‘transcript’ of what SHE *thought* was actually being said.
Krotenberg ( and OTHER ADOSH investigators ) reviewed the material… but then informed Neill that the ‘case was closed’ and there was no opportunity to CHANGE or AMEND the final ‘ADOSH Investigation Report’… which levied HISTORIC fines against Arizona Forestry for the amount of negligence that ADOSH found going on in that AZF Yarnell workplace.
But NONE OF THAT was any kind of ‘FOIA’ or ‘AOR’ request on the part of Holly Neill. That was all just EMAIL conversation which, itself, became part of the public evidence record when ADOSH itself was asked to supply all that via other ‘Arizona Open Records’ request ( like the one that eventually came from InvestigativeMEDIA itself ).
All of those ’emails’ that Holly Neill sent to ADOSH have always just been sitting right there in the ‘Emails’ folder of the PUBLIC Dropbox that contains ALL of the taxpayer-funded ADOSH investigation material.
I just rewrote different spots to see which one is the proper place to ask for FOIA
Bill Boyd is out of office 6/1-6/6
I know it was hotter on 6-30-13 but at over 100 degrees in Yarnell today you get a good sample of what we and the GMHS faced as it was extreme heat that day-
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/841a20e54e28360496ccaf5016fc019b7d1f0dd8/c=279-0-3532-2446&r=x513&c=680×510/local/-/media/Phoenix/Phoenix/2014/06/20/1403294560008-phxdc5-6b2y66djfkzqcre3ci2-original.jpg
funny, funny, funny
What the HELL????
Wiilis?
Hey John Dougherty- Sonny and I were on the top of the Weavers for your media thing and this means you were in company of Pete Masiel already—did you interview him? did you know his part on the YHF?
Darrell hugged Pete July 23, 2013—
he was here in town.
I knew it.
I think I have mountain top pics of him…
thank you CL
http://www.azcentral.com/picture-gallery/news/arizona/2014/06/20/yarnell-hill-fire-where-hotshots-died/11107725/
remember the Congress view and the Yarnell view of the fire in Jolene Aikman file who lived right direct in front of the Helm’s…look at her cloud shots:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xwd4frnmp08j3dk/AAB7cAVigXr-54KajUwG2Suqa?dl=0
** THE JOLENE AICKMAN PHOTOS
All of these photos were taken with a network-connected HTC Android ( Verizon ) Smartphone…
Camera Make: HTC
Camera Model Name: HTC6435LVW
That means the ‘timestamps’ ( and the GPS data ) embedded in all these photos can be totally trusted as ‘accurate’.
Perhaps the most interesting of the photos are these TWO…
IMAG0070.JPG and IMAG0071.JPG
The were both taken from a spot SOUTH of Yarnell… at that place known as the ‘Arrowhead Bar and Grill’, all by itself there on the EAST side of Highway 89 and just north of Congress.
The PHOTOS were taken looking back NORTH from the parking lot of that ‘Arrowhead Bar and Grill’, and looking back towards the huge smoke column that was now over Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
The location where these 2 photos were taken was near where Matt Oss took his famous ‘time lapse’ sequence in the same timeframe ( 3:30 PM to 3:50 PM )… but a little closer to Congress than Matt Oss was.
BOTH of those photos were taken at 4:48 PM on June 30, 2013… just 5 minutes after the accepted ‘time of death’ for the Granite Mountain Hotshots of 4:43 PM.
IMAG0070.JPG
Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 16:48:46
GPS Position: 34 deg 10′ 43.80″ N, 112 deg 49′ 44.63″ W
IMAG0071.JPG
Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 16:48:51
GPS Position: 34 deg 10′ 42.81″ N, 112 deg 49′ 43.91″ W
Since the ‘timestamp’ on these two photos can be trusted as accurate, and the ‘view’ was similar to the Matt Oss video… these 2 photos can be used to verify the accuracy of the original ( reported ) timeframe for the Matt Oss video itself… which has always remained in question.
The images on the next row were all taken at the same location, but on the day when the Granite Mountain Hotshot bodies were being driven from the Maricopa County Medical Examiner’s office ( in Phoenix ) all the way back to Prescott. That’s the day of the ’19 white hearses’ all drving together from Phonenix to Prescott. The convoy passed through Yarnell on the way to Prescott… and the PHOTOS show them all stopping for a ‘rest break’ there just before continuing on to Yarnell.
http://12.199.137.86/bighorn.info/staff.asp
for newcomers:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/2016/04/
if you go to INVESTIGATIVEmedia.com front page- on the right is the archived chapters and Yarnell topics-
Yarnell Hill Fire: Where hotshots died – AZCentral.com
http://www.azcentral.com/picture-gallery/news/…/11107725/
The Arizona Republic
Jun 20, 2014 – … Division Chief of the Prescott Fire Department hugs Pete Masiel … Pete Masiel, a State Dispatch Center Manager with the Arizona State …
so he is in the media with YHF
wwtktt-
now that we have a full name- how do I properly address Bill Boyd on my direct questions- I will do it tomorrow if I know the proper way to direct it because my last attempt failed-
Well… for starters… you cannot COMPEL anyone to do an ‘interview’ with simply an ‘Arizona Open Records’ ( AOR ) request… or even an FOIA request.
AORs and FOIAs are usually only used to obtain DOCUMENTS or photos or videos or any other written or digital communications that might pertain to an issue.
You COULD ask for ALL EMAILS that might have anything to do with this guy.
Maybe he was complaining to management himself about the Yarnell situation and/or the resulting investigation(s).
Those emails would be considered PUBLIC RECORD.
Followup…
Joy… the ‘Dispatchers’ in the official Yarnell Hill Fire Dispatch logs were only using ‘initials’ on the entries… but there ARE, in fact, Dispatch Log entries using the intials “PM’.
There are also a TON of Dispatch Log entries that use the intials ‘PMB’… and there is some indication that whoever ‘PM’ was also being addressed as ‘PMB’.
So that could be this ‘Pete Masiel’ guy.
The person using the initials ‘PMB’ was also having a lot of conversations with some other Dispatcher using the initials ‘DH’… and at one point this DH person seems to refer to the other one using the name ‘Pete’… as in the following example…
Date ‘/ Time: 06/30/2013 1654
From: DH
To: SWCC
Message: Per Pete, Yarnell Expanded will be located at the State Forestry
Dispatch office on Deer Valley Road in Phoenix.
This log is entry is the Dispatcher with initials ‘DH’ ( who was known to converse often with Dispatcher ‘PMB’ ) notifying the SWCC Center that someone named PETE had now decided that the communications for the ‘Yarnell Expanded’ incident ( the post-deployment Incident-within-an-Incident traffic ) would be being handled by the Arizona Forestry Dispatch Center in Deer Valley.
This would also indicate that this ‘Pete’ person was, in fact, on duty there at the ADC in Deer Valley on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Also… if this ‘Pete Masiel’ guy really was forced to ‘retire’ over something related to the Yarnell incident or the resulting investigations… that’s also something that specific ‘Arizona Open Records’ could ask about… because there MUST be documents and emails related to such a thing.
former State Foresty employ as in Initial Attack Dispatcher @ ADC
cl says
JUNE 5, 2016 AT 9:39 AM
I was not part of the SIAR because I was told nothing of it it was as if I was set aside and not known of. The loss of GM along with the CM of ADC (Pete Masiel) I had chose/was made to resign from the State Forestry Division as there last and only full time permanent Employ the had left at the time.
Reply
so Billy Boyd is Az Forestry guy I went through but never got anything there on Crystal or dispatchers so where do I get led for FOIAs?
now we are getting our homework information:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/petemasiel
he can out run me 🙂
http://dbase.adventurecorps.com/individualHistory.php?p=137
but soon—not the YHF—digging away–
http://www.peteandwendycycling.com/
Who is Pete Masiel?
Pete Masiel who originally is from Lindsay, CA is now a Captain at Monte Vista Emergency Communications Center in San Diego, CA. He has been with the USDA Forest Service since April 1988. From 1999 to 2001 Pete had collateral duties as a computer technical specialist for Incident Management Type 1 Team 5. Pete has a MCSE certification, Web Master and many other computer certifications; which he attained at USDA Graduate School in Washington, D.C.
As a Wildland Fire Fighter, Pete battled many large forest fires all over the United States as part of a Helicopter Rappel Crew, Hotshot Crew and Engine Crew. Since 1997, after having had back surgery from a work related injury Pete has worked as a Dispatcher on the Cleveland National Forest. Pete also volunteered with the Kern County Sheriff Department for 7 plus years in the early 90’s. Before the Forest Service, Pete was a U.S. Marine where his job was Crash, Fire and Rescue. While in the Marine Corps, he received the Navy and Marine Corps Medal (Highest peace-time medal for Heroism). He was in the Marine Corps for just under 11years.
http://www.inmaricopa.com/tag/pete-masiel/
https://twitter.com/petemasiel
another Willis who shows off his trophies ???
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COZYGIpUcAUBBaB.jpg
I think I met him-
when I lived in Chandler Arizona I was known there not as the desert walker but the cyclist and I owned so many bicycles- from there in Chandler to Phoenix I’d ride or Superstitions/Globe or Casa Grande/Maricopa/Florence areas (endurance was my thing) and I think I met him and I can dig some but I think we met and if it is same man—I do not see him coming forward at all.
what I think is weird is my old Chandler neighbor Tonya moved to Maricopa because they had spacious two story homes and she was a mormon about to embark on many babies…and she loved the 3 car garages—She lived off of Desert Cedar drive off of John Wayne pkwy—I think I have met him and I think small world—the homes were built like 05’/06′ and I was in hospital and learned my neighbor was having a baby and she was my neighbor in the hospital—she named her kid with my name as her kid’s middle name-
let me keep go see if Tonya can help me on this-
I also can ask my old time work out buddy Anne from that area-
keep looking
what is funny the higher up military balls I attended I went with a Pete that looks like this Pete-
http://gacc.nifc.gov/oscc/logistics/dispatch_webs.htm
https://www.instagram.com/pete_masiel/
http://www.the508.com/articles/2006/kitten.pdf
https://www.facebook.com/PeteMasielBikeRacer
https://www.vetfriends.com/veterandirectory/?member=21004
I contacted and asked for a formal interview- we will see if I get reply.
CM and ADC= Center Manager, Arizona Dispatch Center
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2ygphflrLs
in this video I still do not get how this area was even touched—this is retired chief Anderson(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFObh-fNOl8 )
home that did not burn- but his neighbors did ???
for the newcomers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=begTiksUwqc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgIi4kT5aLs
investigators were watching youtube as you see in above link comment wall SAM AMATO and even some all of a sudden vanished some videos off there—Norb saw the same videos the hikers did on here-
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
JUNE 4, 2016 AT 1:36 PM
Reply to CL post on June 1, 2016 at 8:04 pm
>> CL said…
>>
>> Eric Marsh was actually a Div Sup that day and was in
>> charge of division A making him Division a Sup and
>> Giving Jesse Steed the Roll of running the crew.
Echoing what Woodsman just said/asked.
WHICH FIRE are you referring to?
The ‘Horseshoe 2’ Fire… or the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’?
Reply
cl says
JUNE 5, 2016 AT 8:08 AM
Considering this discussion is about the Yarnell Hill Fire that is what I am referring to and yes I was there not on the ground but in dispatch. The states type 2 “short team” that was assembled lacked positions such as div group supervisors and safety officers.
cl says
JUNE 5, 2016 AT 8:19 AM
No former State Foresty employ as in Initial Attack Dispatcher @ ADC
Reply
glad to have you back cl-
I am serious in all my comments-
I would meet you even if I signed a confidentiality form for you-
before I expire I do want clarity for what I saw that day on the same mountain as those men-
There are just too many I have hiked CL that knew these men and never got to say goodbye- I hold their pains so deep— their love runs to the core and these are grown men and women – some have went on with their lives but some are stuck- The flames that began as containable became the gates of hell and those men did not have to die…please even if it is with anonymity please share…
it chokes me.
we are not talking about a life or two but NINETEEN-
yet too many remain quiet-
in any way you can get the words out even if you become “just saying” …blah,blah,blah under a total ridiculous fake name get the facts out and then we can go search foias in right areas-
we can do the homework—done it many times before already
Joy A. Collura says
JUNE 5, 2016 AT 9:25 AM
this discussion branches off to other fires- Cl
especially due to this article
http://www.investigativemedia.com/forest-service-ignored-information-from-hotshot-leaders-about-granite-mountains-history-of-bad-decisions/#comment-338594
and last year with the Twisp fire- we need to get people who were there to speak up—not to point fingers but to get a better understanding why they left the black in the manner they did?
Reply
from the moment I met John MacLean- I knew he was quality and came from a quality background-
A world I only peaked into in my lifetime and never “lived”…I have fly fished but not artistically-
I recently was told again about John’s view of the hikers and I do not know what Sonny feels but I am okay with his view because all I can tell you I was broken before the fire and I am even more broken now…
In loving memory of Norman who in that race link you will see a beige duck named after John’s father Norman so I can say hi Norman every day—the other two ducks I named Audie and Murphy—
to Norman-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duVHzuMQIEY
time to fish?
yep.
for more details to the YHF 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_U7XFMbE0k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Jzprx30duc
any newcomers from the race today?
I want to introduce John MacLean an author and has planned to write about the YHF-
I joke or mess around on here “calling him out” at times because his own friends came to me and apologized how he degraded the hikers but the core of me really cannot knock the man…
I hope you enjoy his other fire books—
http://johnmacleanbooks.com/
I have read them and enjoyed them however I knew nothing about fire so reading his book on YHF will be sensitive to me because I sat on those Weavers 6-30-13 and I do not like it to be rewritten just as I saw it—
So far the books to date have not been the “true” full account of the YHF-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQZm_ti8OWw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II7RmhdxBes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX7nwYWELCE
more passed on this past few weeks-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQm_9m5lINU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PufNs7q5QI0&list=PL7gHuGOc3ivJQnSWK2PQGdHShS-wSt53U&index=2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jNPRmfVxWI
sad song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvbblIgeJs0
the man on the right is Delbert who during evacuation was panicky towards us and I did not take him serious—
the other man I have spoken about on here too- Walter Eckes–
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtPiVpgZdlE
Fernanda Santos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI2duP1pQPE
Fernanda Santos 11:22/26:00
who is Fernanda?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZPDhsq7Jws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX29Ys-KoC4
https://vimeo.com/99666660
JOHN DOUGHERTY-
people who view this page yet eek— hate it- judge it– degrade it publicly-
I have learned from John Dougherty, an investigative journalist. He has been an inspiration as I watch him work for public accountability. It’ s a lesson learned in how a motivated citizen as himself may keep the government and the powerful in check. Some cannot grasp that- maybe some think his tactics are ???
yet this site after three years has proven to gain more clarity and documents and foias than any other public site.
just saying.
**
** ADOSH INVESTIGATORS KNOW MIKE DUDLEY WITHHELD INFORMATION
As Joy posted at the end of the last chapter… this VERY interesting ( and IMPORTANT ) PUBLIC comment just appeared over on Holly Neill’s ‘Safety Matters’ Facebook page.
Barry Hicks was one of the ADOSH investigators for their Yarnell Hill Investigation.
From…
https://www.facebook.com/SafetyMattersWildlandFirefighterForum/
———————————————————————————————
Comment from: Barry Hicks
I want to remind folks that there were two investigations with different results. I was a member of the ADOSH investigation team and I know what our limitations were but I am still learning of information that was withheld from us not the least of which Mike Dudley knew about and failed to share with us. There are a number of questions that remain and will take years to learn as long as the FS refuses to let all the information be shared openly. I would hope that the FS would change its approach and allow all their employees to talk openly without threat of retaliation. I know that both investigations had flaws but I do think the ADOSH investigation could have been more successful had they not been legally limited to 6 months to file their report.
————————————————————————————————
This is really HUGE.
An actual investigator for the State of Arizona is publicly saying that they now KNOW evidence was being withheld from them… and ‘obstructing’ their legal investigation into 19 workplace fatalities.
Brendan McDonough himself has now been calling for the ‘investigations’ to be ‘reopened’.
An hour after that was posted… Holly Neill herself REPLIED to ADOSH investigator Barry Hicks…
————————————————————————————————
Reply from: Holly Henderson Neill
Thanks Barry for the wise words. It’s important to realize that information has been withheld and many important questions remain. This is why I advocate for more information before forming solid conclusions or making assumptions based on limited information,
————————————————————————————————
So Holly Neill is trying to say that just because former Geronimo Hotshot Superintendent *might have been wrong about exactly what spot Marsh was occupying on an org chart… that this then negates everything David Provencio was trying to report to Mike Dudley and the SAIT?
What David Provencio was TRYING to tell the SAIT is that he had DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE of a PATTERN of ‘bad/risky’ decision making on Marsh’s part.
And as for just the one ‘2011 Horseshoe 2’ fire incident… the ORDERS were COMING from Eric Marsh… and Eric Marsh is the one they had to ‘shut down’ and tell him what he was asking them to do had waaaaay too many ‘Safety Violations’ involved.
Here is exactly what David Provencio originally told Mike Dudley… in an email… just about 35 days after the tragedy…
———————————————————————————
Having worked with Granite Mtn before (we were next door neighbors), at San Carlos Apache Tribe, with Geronimo IHC. I can name several assignments from 2010 – 2012 where Eric Marsh made recommendations on some fire line work, BUT there was no other decision but turned it DOWN….. Yarnell Hill, although tragic, does not come as a surprise to me and many of us.
To me this was just part of a trend that ended with this tragedy.
If you would like to discuss those particular past assignments, I have them WELL DOCUMENTED in WRITING, and in my mind.
David Provencio
———————————————————————————
“I can name SEVERAL assignments from 2010 – 2012”
So Holly Neill is just myopically focusing on ONE incident… and trying to make the whole issue on just that ONE incident whether or not, in a followup interview, Provencio was correctly recalling what Marsh’s ‘title’ was when he was giving out the orders that needed to be refused for safety concerns… on just THAT one fire.
She seems to have totally missed the point that it isn’t / wasn’t just ONE incident that David Provencio was talking about.
He was talking about a discernible PATTERN… and was telling Mike Dudley he had the DOCUMENTED PROOF to back up what he was saying.
But Mike Dudley “didn’t want to go there”… even though he was being PAID to find out what might have caused the tragedy in Yarnell.
So if we now know Provence got Marsh’s job title wrong and miscounted how many crews did the turn down by 50%, on this one fire alone.
Can we assume the other “notes” he has are <50% accurate as well?
Hell. Maybe he should have helped with the sair
Correction. Provencio
And
You yourself have said rts/fred is full of shit, as has Gary.
So we can give him a 50% credibility rating also?
Fair?
Reply to calvin post on June 4, 2016 at 6:56 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> And… You yourself have said rts/fred is full of shit, as has Gary.
I believe the long-standing beef I’ve had with RTS/Fred has always been simply that we were not being given a good indication WHERE his information was actually coming from . Just a vague general idea of ‘Region X’ WFFs or ‘from the network’ and such.
And all we would ever get from RTS/Fred is
“I’m not going to reveal my sources… you’ll just have to take my word for it”.
I think we can see ( now, thanks to John Dougherty ), that for at least SOME of the ‘proof of prior bad decisions with good outcomes’ testimony coming from RTS… he was, in fact, referring to the knowledge and prior experiences that former Geronimo Hotshot Superintendent David Provencio was TRYING to relay to Mike Dudley himself… but he ( Dudley ) refused to ‘follow up’ on.
Well… Holly Neill’s most recent “drive-by-shooting” is basically now just saying the same thing…
“I’m not going to reveal my sources… you’ll just have to take my word for it”.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> So we can give him a 50% credibility rating also?
>> Fair?
Fair only in the sense that even the ‘new’ information coming from Holly Neill herself currently only deserves that same 50% probability of being accurate… since she, herself, is now doing the same old tap dance of…
“I’m not going to reveal my sources… you’ll just have to take my word for it”.
She said ( and I quote )…
“I believe it is important to follow through and check facts for such serious allegations.”
Okay… so far so good… who would disagree?… but keep in mind this is just a ‘reactionary follow through’ on her part. She ( apparently ) only lifted a finger to look into any allegations of prior evidence of ‘bad decisions with good outcomes’ on Granite Mountain’s part AFTER John Dougherty published his article.
Then she said…
“Marsh was not assigned Division Supervisor as stated, but was assigned Crew Boss (CRWB) on Horseshoe 2 fire in 2011. There are no records or sources* to indicate that Eric Marsh was assigned Division Supervisor.”
She then refers to the following ‘evidence’ for making that statement…
1. SAIT: H: Qualifications: Master Record: Eric Marsh: pg 335
2. Crew Fire Record 2011: Eric Marsh: pg 340
3. Other: personnel recollections and payroll records.
So let’s take them ONE AT A TIME… and see what she is referring to.
1. SAIT: H: Qualifications: Master Record: Eric Marsh: pg 335
There are only TWO lines on that page, in that document, that have anything to do with the ‘2011 Horseshoe 2’ fire
Persons Master Record – Eric Marsh
Marsh was there at the ‘2011 Horseshoe 2’ fire for the FIRST time on May 8, 2011. He worked 2 Operational Periods as the fire transitioned from a Type 4 to a Type 3 fire ( according to comments field )…
Type: JOB
Position Code: CRWB
Hazard Type: WF
Position Description: Crew Boss, Single Resource
Experience Date: 05/08/2011
Incident #: 11-0445
Incident Name: HORSESHOE 2 – CNF ( Cocnino National Forest )
Operational Periods: 2
Evaluation: Not Received
Experience Quality ( Fuel Type ): G,B,T
Comments: Type 4/3
Then, TWO WEEKS LATER, on May 22, 2011, Marsh RETURNS to the ‘2011 Horseshoe 2’ fire and then works for 14 Operational Periods, with the fire now classified as a ‘Type 1’ fire and ( presumably ) a corresponding ‘Type 1 Incident Management Team’…
Type: JOB
Position Code: CRWB
Hazard Type: WF
Position Description: Crew Boss, Single Resource
Experience Date: 05/22/2011
Incident #: 11-0455
Incident Name: HORSESHOE 2 – CNF ( Coconino National Forest )
Operational Periods: 14
Evaluation: Not Received
Experience Quality ( Fuel Type ): G,B,T
Comments: Type 1
Now… on PDF page 340… ( the other page referenced by Neill )…
We see TWO ‘Crew Fire Record’ entries that correspond to the same TWO times indicated in the other records that Marsh was working the ‘2011 Horseshoe 2’ fire… separated by 2 weeks in-between assignments.
Crew Fire Record – 2011
Crewmember: Eric Marsh
Date: 05/08/2011 thru 05/09/2011 ( 2 Days / Operational Periods )
Name: Horseshoe 2
Agency: CNF ( Coconino National Forest )
Mgmt.: 4/3 ( Type 4 fire transitioned to Type 3 fire )
Q/T: CRWB
Class: No entry
Fuel: G,B,T
Date: 05/22/2011 thru 06/06/2011 ( 14 Days / Operational Periods )
Name: Horseshoe 2
Agency: CNF ( Coconino National Forest )
Mgmt.: 1 ( Type 1 fire management team in place )
Q/T: CRWB
Class: No entry
Fuel: G,B,T
ALL of the records above do, in fact, say that Eric Marsh WAS at the ‘2011 Horseshoe 2′ fire’ ( TWICE in May )… and that BOTH times he was there he was working as a ‘CRWB’ ( Crew Boss, Single Resource ).
So if that’s what all those ‘work records’ say… then there’s no way he could have possibly ever been a ‘DIVS’ or a ‘DIVS(t)’ on a particular fire and not have that be showing up in these kinds of ‘work records’… RIGHT?
WRONG.
These records that Holly Neill is referring to as part of her ‘evidence’ for her statements CANNOT be fully TRUSTED.
There is another record just a page above the one Holly Neill has quoted where it is absolutely KNOWN that Eric Marsh was working as a ‘DIVS(t)’… but the same ‘records’ only say Marsh was there at that same fire in a ‘CRWB’ capacity.
In Marsh’s DIVS taskbook… he was functioning as a DIVS(t) on a fire called the ‘2008 Rich Fire’ on the Plumas National Forest, Region 5. The person who ‘signed off’ on Marsh’s taskbook for his DIVS(t) assignment on that fire was a guy named Andy Morin. He signed Marsh’s DIVS(t) taskbook for the ‘2008 Rich Fire’ on 08/05/2008.
You will find that ‘signed’ DIVS taskbook entry in the ADOSH public evidence
Dropbox in the following folder / file…
ADOSH / City of Prescott Fire — GMHS / Training Records / Eric Marsh
Filename: “E Marsh DIVS.pdf” ( Eric Marsh’s DIVS taskbook )
But if we go back to the same ‘Personnel History’ file that Holly Neill is referencing… we find NO INDICATION that Marsh was acting as a ‘DIVS’ ( trainee or otherwise ) on the ‘2008 Rich Fire’.
All we see is that he was working that same ‘2008 Rich Fire’ as ( you guessed it ), just a ‘CRWB’.
Here is that ‘work record’… from PDF page 334 of the same “H Qualifications.pdf” document that Holly Neill references up above… and just ONE PAGE above the records she’s referencing as ‘evidence’ in her recent statement(s).
Marsh worked the ‘Rich Fire’ from late 07/30/2008 thru 08/05/2008
Type: JOB
Position Code: CRWB
Hazard Type: WF
Position Description: Crew Boss, Single Resource
Experience Date: 07/30/2008
Incident #: 08-0677
Incident Name: RICH
Operational Periods: ( No entry )
Evaluation: Satisfactory
Experience Quality: ( No entry )
Comments: ( No entry )
So there you have it.
We absolutely KNOW that Eric Marsh was functioning as a ‘DIVS(t)’ the whole time he was working the ‘2008 Rich Fire’… but the same ‘work records’ that Holly Neill is using as some kind of ‘proof’ of what Marsh was or wasn’t assigned to be doing on the ‘Horseshoe 2’ fire are TOTALLY WRONG about what Marsh was really doing on the ‘2008 Rich Fire’… and they say he was just a ‘CRWB’.
Okay… moving on…
2. Crew Fire Record 2011: Eric Marsh: pg 340
I already debunked this up above.
She is referring to those same “Crew Fire Records” shown above, which can’t be ‘totally trusted’ any more than the other work records can.
3. Other: personnel recollections and payroll records.
Okay… I have no idea what ‘payroll records’ she is referring to that cover the 2011 time period for either Granite Mountain and/or Eric Marsh, so unless she wants to clarify that or publish the documents she is referring to there, there’s no way to know what she is even referring to.
As for her last remaining ‘source’… we now arrive at just more mysterious ( and anonymous ) ‘personnel recollections’…
Here is what she also had to say about THAT ‘evidence’…
Personnel from the Horseshoe 2 fire, including the Type 1 Incident Commander and other overhead, provided their accounts for additional clarification.The following recollection is from overhead personnel on the Horseshoe 2 fire, who wants to remain anonymous:
So we are right smack back in chicken-shit land again.
“Here is what I heard but I’m not going to say from who”
Then she says…
The Type 1 Incident Commander provided additional information about the refusal/ turn down protocol used by Provencio and the other IHC. Marsh was not assigned as Division Supervisor on Horseshoe 2 fire; he was assigned as Granite Mountain superintendent/crew boss. He was part of a group of 12-14 IHC superintendents. The planning and decision process was led by the Type 1 Operations Section Chief, Branch Director and Division Supervisor
Okay… at face value that seems like it was the Type 1 IC himself who ( supposedly ) told her directly that Marsh was not a DIVSUP on that fire… right?
Well. Maybe not. She is definitely saying the IC ‘provided additional information’ about the turn downs… but then there is a PERIOD at the end of that sentence.
She does NOT say… “and the IC also confirmed that Marsh was not a Division Supervisor”, as you would have expected her to do.
So is that really her just referring back to her OTHER evidence… or did the IC really confirm that to her… directly?
From a pure ‘sentence construction’ and ‘TRUST but VERIFY’ point of view… it could go one way or the other.
Okay… this message is way too long so I’m stopping for now.
But do you catch my drift?
I ( me, personally ) think Holly Neill still has as much as a chance at being wrong about some of these details SHE is now asserting as, perhaps, David Provencio was.
So I’m willing to agree to your 50% waterline… but only for ALL PARTIES, at this point.
As usual… we need less chicken-shit and more VERIFIABLE evidence.
But bottom line on this is that regardless of where Marsh was on some ‘org chart’ for just this one ‘Horseshoe 2’ fire… what Provencio was saying is that it was still Eric Marsh himself that was trying to hand out a shit sandwich… and other Type 1 IHCS told Marsh himself they would rather stay alive, thank you very much.
Followup…
What I don’t think Holly Neill realizes as she does these “drive-by-shootings” is that her little “press releases” just don’t cut the cake round these ‘heya parts.
She thinks that just because she says she talked to so and so and he said such and such and now I’m telling you ( X amount of hearsay )… that we are supposed to automatically believe her.
TRUST… but VERIFY.
WHERE are the DOCUMENTS?
WHERE are the Incident Action Plans?
WHERE are the actual “Turn Down Protocol’ documents even she says exist.
Something tells me these actual ‘Turn Down Documents’ are just part of the EVIDENCE that David Provencio was offering to SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley in his original email… but Mike Dudley ( and the rest of the SAIT ) didn’t even care enough about doing their jobs to even ask to see them.
Soooo… did Holly Neill try to get in touch with Provencio and just ASK to see this same EVIDENCE that was being offered to the SAIT?
If not… WHY not?
That’s what happens when you just do a “drive-by-shooting” around here. If you don’t hang around to even answer a few questions… there are already reasons not to ‘fully’ trust the original information.
So again… if you want to put a ‘5o% trust’ waterline on all of this… then that applies to Holly Neill’s recent “drive-by-shooting” as well.
WTKTT
I would add not all the HS crews were on this Back Fire/Burn Out.
It was a peace of line and more than likely had 3 to maybe 5 crews.
If you even drop back to the normal on a fire line section of this size
there would be a STL Crew or that with a Attached DIVS Trainee.
Provencio says Marsh was in charge of the Line section assignment.
A temporary promotion to accomplish the assignment????
Most fires of this size have a DIVS and two or three STLD running what use to be called Sectors. They could be Crew, Engines or Tractors or combinations.
The Protocol Turn downs would list who ordered them to do what and why they said no to that person or persons.
Reply to Bob Powers says
June 5, 2016 at 7:50 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Provencio says Marsh was in charge of the Line
>> section assignment.
>> A temporary promotion to accomplish the
>> assignment????
Certainly possible. I could also buy the explanation that, since Eric Marsh was out there trying to TELL other Hotshots Crews what they should be doing… that maybe Provencio might have just ‘assumed’ Marsh had gotten some quick ‘field promotion’ to DIVS, or something… even if that was never ( officially ) the case.
It still doesn’t change the fundamental argument or the fundamental FACTS of what Provencio was talking about ( and Holly Neill herself is also not denying the fundamental facts, either… just arguing the details ).
Eric Marsh is the one who seems to have been trying to hand some other Type 1 IHC Superintendents a ‘shit sandwich’… and they recognized it as an UNSAFE assignment with TOO MUCH RISK… so they ‘officially’ refused Marsh’s ‘orders’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The Protocol Turn downs would list who ordered
>> them to do what and why they said no to that
>> person or persons.
Exactly. This was, by no means, just some Type 1 IHC asking another to ‘bring down fire’ where they were leaving off… and the other ones said “No fucking way”… and that was that.
This was MORE than that.
It was, apparently, a BIG DEAL ( with more than 1 Type 1 IHC Crew refusing what they determined to be a dangerous assignment with too much risk ).
It ended up with actual “Turn Down Documents” being generated.
Funny that Neill would ( apparently ) go to all the trouble she did just to prove Provencio was wrong about some of his ‘details’ conveyed in a phone interview… but didn’t lift a finger to get copies of the actual ‘Turn Down’ documents… to see what THEY had to say?
I think she was just pleased with herself when she discovered she thought she had evidence about some of the details Provencio was recalling… and she thought she had ‘ammunition’ to discredit Provencio… and she just decided to ‘publish’ with even that little information she had.
Of COURSE we need to know MORE about this ( and probably ALL of the other incidents that Provencio says he also has documented ).
If Mike Dudley has done his fucking JOB… when he was being PAID to fully investigate the Yarnell Hill Fire… all of this would have already been fully looked into.
But here we are… still trying to wipe Mike Dudley’s ass for him.
WTKTT,
Holly Neil posted: the reason that she is doing what she’s doing is “BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY FACED AND ENDURED TOGETHER, DURING THE LAST UNSPEAKABLE MOMENTS OF THEIR LIVES.”
Really? Notwithstanding all the alleged extraneous pressure and influence on these trained and experienced, grown men, they did it to themselves, nobody held a gun to their heads and made them leave the safe black on the YH Fire on 30 June 2013.
The HS Supts. that I talked with that were there on the HS2 Fire, stated that Marsh was the DIVS in spite of what Holly Neil says or IQCS records..
Neil posted: “Marsh was not assigned Division Supervisor as stated, but was assigned Crew Boss (CRWB) on Horseshoe 2 fire in 2011. There are no records or sources* to indicate that Eric Marsh was assigned Division Supervisor.
*SAIT: H: Qualifications: Master Record: Eric Marsh: pg 335
*Crew Fire Record 2011: Eric Marsh: pg 340
*Other: personnel recollections and payroll records.”
So what! Just because Marsh’s HS2 Fire experience is showing as CRWB means nothing to me. Errors occur frequently in those records as evidenced below on the inaccurate location.
Just because the Type I IC claimed otherwise doesn’t mean much. They are often distant from what goes on in the operational aspects. And he was likely saying that as CYA.
IMT overhead often assign HS Supts as interim operational overhead, especially DIVS, as evidenced by the YH Fire.
She posted: “The planning and decision process was led by the Type 1 Operations Section Chief, Branch Director and Division Supervisor.”
During these kinds of tough operations the HS Supts are ALWAYS included in this planning process. Often, it’s them that come up with the idea first.
Notice that the IQCS “record” incorrectly shows CNF, the CORONADO NF, near Tucson, as the Coconino NF near Flagstaff, BOTH times!
You (WTKTT) posted: “It ended up with actual “Turn Down Documents” being generated.”
NEGATIVE, not unless they filed a SAFENET. No Operational SAFENETS were filed for the HS2 Fire.
Holly Neil and you seem to think that just because there is a documented ‘record’ of something happening, that it did hzppen.
Such is NOT the case.
And then there is this gem: “The following link is to a letter and certificate of commendation from the Southwest Area Incident Management Team, to The Granite Mountain IHC for their professional work ethic, commitment to safety and exceptional performance on the Horseshoe 2 fire:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5LiZw3EBzOWdnU3MlJSY2k0bDg”
I can assure you that every Crew on that fire received an identical letter. And the same goes for other Crews and Overhead on other Type I IMT fires.
It’s what they do.
Fred says
“https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5LiZw3EBzOWdnU3MlJSY2k0bDg”
I can assure you that every Crew on that fire received an identical letter. And the same goes for other Crews and Overhead on other Type I IMT fires.
It’s what they do.”
Well Fred you are well connected and might know Dave P shown us GIHC letter at least. If these letters were sent out to “every crew” then it should be easy to get someone to show it.
You know I asked a similar question in the last chapter, about these letters. Wanted to know how often and common are they for crews.
It seems like selective answers around here sometimes.
Mr. Turbyfill,
These letters are fairly common, especially from Type I IMT’s. So, as often as each Type I Incident.
They give them out pretty freely to all Crews on all fires, and/or you can request that they give you one.
They would likely be contained within each ‘Fire Package” (a record of all the documents on an incident that ‘they’ haven’t ) and available through the FOIA process on Federal fires and Records Requests on State fires.
They are generally ‘boilerplate’ letters, pretty much all the same and/or very similar verbiage.
The link Holly Neil provided is for the GMHS letter, so I’m not really sure what you’re looking for.
Mr. Turbyfill,
Correction:
‘Fire Package” (a record of all the documents on an incident that ‘they’ haven’t destroyed)
Calvin,
What? What makes you believe that “we now know Provence got Marsh’s job title wrong and miscounted how many crews did the turn down by 50%, on this one fire alone.”?
What information are you using to determine that Provencio (who was there) is wrong about what happened at the Horseshoe 2 fire? And what information are you using to determine Provencio, a federal hotshot superintendent who was working on the Horseshoe 2 fire, didn’t know whether Marsh was a DIVS at the time or not?
I’m really not following your train of thought here,
Woodsman
Surely you jest
I’m really not. Has it been determined that Provencio is FOS and I missed it? I’m all ears. Seriously. I’ve been wrong before & I’m sure I’ll be wrong again. I want the truth, whatever it may be here.
Woodsman
What calvin means by ‘surely you jest’ is that he seems to think there is no possible way that Holly Neill, herself, could be mistaken with the ‘new’ information SHE has posted in her recent “drive by shooting” / “press release” style comments.
Standby for another post.
The ‘50% trust’ that calvin is now talking about applies equally well to Holly Neill.
There are records in the actual document that Holly Neill herself was ‘quoting’ that prove Marsh was working as ‘DIVS’ on other fires… but his actual RECORDS only show he was a ‘CRWB’.
See this new ‘Reply’ to calvin up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-338561
It shows that the very records Holly Neill is ‘quoting’ and ‘referencing’ cannot be fully trusted.
If you could have a conversation with three people, either living or dead, who would they be?
it use to be someone else for my 3 until 6-30-13
home.johndougherty2010.com
did you all know John Dougherty was to run for U.S. Senate a few years before the tragedy—
interesting tidbit-
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/john-dougherty-ex-new-times-award-winning-staffer-to-run-for-us-senate-really-6635287
Hi all,
I’ve been mulling over WTKTT and Marti’s posts in past chapters about the positions of vehicles at various times, and also who was hearing what from where. I have not made complete sense of this as times and positions are still being pinned down. Moreover, I only know this area from Google Earth and other online maps, and I don’t know a thing about how these radios behave around hills and fires, so feel free to jump in on any aspect of this crazy line of thought.
Does anyone here think that Cordes or Musser or anyone else could have deduced GM’s position based on who could pick them up on radio and who couldn’t? If GM had been moving along the ridge, either on the two track or back up through the black to Model Creek as some BR people supposedly thought, it looks like they should have had line of sight through to most spots along 89. Once they went into the box canyon, though, it looks like RHR would no longer receive them, and central Yarnell should have, but I can’t tell about Model Creek.
Have you discussed this somewhere? Do you remember when that would have been?
No one thought the GMH were moving north, in the black
Correct. That statement in the SAIR has ALWAYS seemed to have been a total ‘fantasy’ they were creating because it fit their narrative and seemed to offer some kind of ‘excuse’ why no one seemed to know where GM really was.
In the final body of testimony that became available… Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown never even suggest that any such thought ever entered their minds.
If it was something Frisby or Brown simply SAID during their SAIT interview… then it still never made it into the SAIT Investigation Notes OR into their own final Unit Logs and testimony ( which, if it happened, is just more proof that the SAIT had heard all kinds of things during their ‘interviews’ that they NEVER documented in their own Investigation Notes ).
It simply ‘sounded good’, to them, so they willy-nilly stuck that ‘thought’ into Brian Frisby’s head and it made their ‘story’ sound more legitimate.
And it then became one of the most often-repeated statements ( along with the stuff about a communications ‘blackout’ ) in the Mainstream Media ( MSM ) following the release of their little ‘story’ called the SAIR.
Reply to Muzzy post on June 4, 2016 at 4:53 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Does anyone here think that Cordes or Musser or anyone else could
>> have deduced GM’s position based on who could pick them up on
>> radio and who couldn’t?
Speaking only for myself.. I would say no… not very likely ( but it’s a creative thought and not ‘crazy’ at all to wonder about that ).
There were times that day when people couldn’t even communicate with their handhelds even when they could SEE each other. DIVSZ Rance Marquez said he could SEE Granite Mountain up on the ridge when he was standing in the Sesame Clearing… but his radio was so messed up ( bad clone? ) that he still had trouble communicating directly with them.
Same with Frisby. When he picked Brendan up near the old-grader… he was VERY close to both Steed and Marsh… but his attempts to talk to them on a TAC channel were failing and that’s why he had to borrow Brendan’s handheld and talk to them over the GM intra-crew radio frequency.
So no… things were too ‘spotty’ to make any assumptions that just because you could or could not get them on the radio… that that meant they were any place in particular.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> If GM had been moving along the ridge, either on the two track or back up
>> through the black to Model Creek as some BR people supposedly thought,
Keyword: Supposedly.
I think you referring to that infamous statement in the published SAIR about Brian Frisby thinking they ( GM ) were moving towards a ‘ranch’ to the NORTH, instead of SOUTH towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
That statement has NEVER been supported by any actual testimony.
It really does appear that the SAIT ( Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, etc. ) just made that up out of whole cloth and put that ‘thought’ into Frisby’s head because it fit their narrative.
In both Frsiby’s and Brown’s Unit Logs… it never says either one of them ever had any such thought. There was confusion, yes, about exactly which ‘two-track’ Marsh had been talking about… but no evidence they were ever so confused as to think Marsh was taking Steed and the Crew to the NORTH.
Oddly enough… even though that looks like a complete ‘fantasy’ made up by the SAIT… that is one of the ‘thoughts’ and ‘statements’ in the SAIR that has gotten almost as much press as the other alleged ‘fantasy’ in the SAIR… that no one had been directly communicating with either Marsh or Steed for 30 minutes between 4:04 PM and 4:37 PM.
As Mark Twain said…
“A LIE can travel halfway ’round the world before the TRUTH even has a chance to put its boots on”.
( Actually… Mark Twain didn’t say that ORIGINALLY… be he made that adage popular ).
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> it looks like they should have had line of sight through to most spots
>> along 89. Once they went into the box canyon, though, it looks like
>> RHR would no longer receive them, and central Yarnell should have,
>> but I can’t tell about Model Creek.
Not sure I agree with ‘RHR ( Ranch House Restaurant ) would no longer receive them’.
Yes… there were ‘rock piles’ blocking line of sight direct from RHR to canyon floor… but there is also some evidence that AFTER the deployment… like when Todd Abel was the new ‘Granite Mountain Incident-Within-An-Incident Commander’… and Abel was AT the RHR… he WAS able to communicate ( via handheld radio ) with Jason Clawson ( and others ) who were standing at the deployment site itself.
We can actually HEAR some of those communications ourselves in some of the later Aaron Hulburd videos.
Jason Clawson is the one talking to Todd Abel about “No medical team needed”… and we hear Abel receiving him and confirming that. Abel was ( by all accounts ) standing at the RHR and Jason Clawson was actually standing right where the bodies were.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Have you discussed this somewhere?
>> Do you remember when that would have been?
There has been discussion about this, on and off, but nothing specific about whether Cordes or Musser might have been ‘assuming’ anything just based on who could or could not talk with Marsh or Steed directly… at any given time.
Most of the discussion has been about how confusing it all really was… with reports of people getting ‘bad clones’ ( from who? They never say ) and people being able to actually SEE each other but still, apparently, not be able to communicate.
Some of that discussion ( as in the case of Marsh and Marquez ) was whether or not there really was a ‘radio problem’… or whether someone was just CHOOSING to not respond to certain people.
And then there are other confusing times when you would THINK that someone shouldn’t have been able to hear from someone… yet they COULD.
Example: At the time of the MAYDAY radio traffic… OPS1 Todd Abel was all the way out on Miner’s Camp Road… waaaay up on the NORTH side of the fire and out WEST of the Model Creek Road area. Yet… we can tell from Hulburd’s M2U00265 video that Todd Abel heard every frickin’ thing that was being broadcasted from the floor of the blind box canyon.
There were TONS of ‘ridges’ between Abel and the floor of that canyon… not including that HUGE rock ridge that made up the north side of the canyon… as well as ( at that time ) this HUGE, and DENSE particulate matter smoke cloud between him and the source of the transmissions. You would think Abel might have been able to hear the airplane side of that exchange, but not the transmissions from the actual FLOOR of the box canyon.
But that wasn’t the case. Todd Abel could hear ALL of it. Clearly… and he was even calling directly to GM himself during that MAYDAY exchange, in the hopes they would answer HIM… since John Burfiend was IGNORING them for those 2 and 1/2 minutes.
Thanks WTKTT,
It was a long shot…
In his speech in Utah, Mike Dudley said some members of BR initially went that way to look for them after, thinking they might have gone through the black to Model Creek. It sounded weird when he said it, and it wasn’t in the BR interview notes, but he heard some things from BR that we didn’t get in the interview transcripts.
Reply to Muzzy post on June 4, 2016 at 5:55 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> It sounded weird when he said it, and it wasn’t in the BR interview
>> notes, but he heard some things from BR that we didn’t get in
>> the interview transcripts.
Perhaps… but it’s actually more likely Mike Dudley was the original author of that bullshit and he was still standing there in front of firefighters actually BELIEVING his own bullshit.
Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown had been UP THERE at the anchor point themselves that day… from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM.
They saw whatever could be seen from there themselves.
The only viable RANCH to the NORTH was the frickin’ Double-Bar-A Ranch itself… and it’s not conceivable that Frisby would have thought that was where Marsh was taking anyone at that point when things were hitting the fan.
There were some other ‘features’ out there ( like old feeding stations ) to the NORTH… but they were ‘in the middle of fucking nowhere’ and also not any kind of sane destination at that time.
Nah. It remains MUCH more likely, even now, that the whole “They thought they were headed to a ranch to the north” bullshit was just completely ‘made up’ by Dudley ( and/or other SAIT people ) and they willy-nilly just INSERTED that ‘thought’ into Brian Frisby’s head… because they WANTED to. The WANTED the report to sling that kind of bullshit to help present ‘excuses’ why no one knew where GM was ( when they SHOULD HAVE ).
Woodsman! Woodsman! Woodsman!!!
Good to start this chapter off right!
Dear Cheerleader,
Hey that’s twice, Your going to give me a big head! Thanks.
Woodsman
http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/13000/Big-Head-13227.jpg
woodsman.
wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BwFOoxbwj-rFTkhITFVteVhEZkE&usp=sharing
http://yarnellmemorialrun.com/
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9_5agqXkwMo/U_Exh1VpKVI/AAAAAAAABa8/t_HzAZ0EiBA/s1600/BlameGame.jpg
I think Jeff is playing Duane S.
it adds up behind the scenes-