Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII and Chapter XIX.
© Copyright 2016 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
The next ‘Chapter’ XXI ( 21 ) of this ongoing discussion has been created.
Here is a direct jumplink to that ‘new’ Chapter…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/
I started out on this thread saying what I really think about the 10 and the 18 but I stopped doing that a long time ago because of two reasons;
1. I didn’t want to responsible even in the smallest way of any young firefighters dying in the future because they think they don’t have to follow the 10 and the 18 because I said they are bullshit. They need to follow the spirit of the 10 and the 18, not the letter of the 10 and the 18. Does anyone not understand what they means. If you don’t say so, and I will explain it further?
2. I acquiesced to Bob Powers because I used to respect him and I deferred to him because that is how I was brought up in the USFS. Always to defer to those who have more experience. Even many years after I was an equal in terms of pay grade and status to my first hotshot crew boss, Amos Coochyama (and we were friends even though he wore grooves in my head by humping it when I was an FNG) I always deferred to him in private, professional and social settings because he was still my hotshot crew boss. That was proper USFS etiquette. But now since I don’t have any respect for Bob anymore and I don’t even want to know whatever Fred is still concealing with his head games…I can tell you how I really feel.
The 10 and the 18 are ridiculous and nothing but bullshit. They are nothing more than a collection of common sense truisms that any experienced wildland firefighter or person (like Sonny and that cowboy who told Marsh and Steed not to get trapped in the Manzanita) with even basic survival skills follow automatically.
Does anybody really need a rule to tell them not to work in canyons, chutes, or anyplace else ABOVE a fire in the daytime when everybody knows heat rises and fire burns faster uphill during the day and if you force water into a narrow stream from a wide stream it will go much faster? And if the air feels dry, there is wind on you face, the pine needles snap in your fingers instead of bend, the smoke column is dark grey or black instead of light grey or white and it is laying over horizontally instead of rising vertically and especially if the smoke column is black and laying over horizontally towards you, or a thunder cell is approaching that you can see for miles away it is about to get windy and the fire is going to change directions and who doesn’t know the snow always stays much longer on a north facing aspect and goes away first on a southerly facing slope and cold air falls and fires creep downhill at night unless you are in California and the Santa Ana’s are blowing and frost killed Gamble Oak that is 12 feet tall is even more dangerous than thick Manzanita but they are both dangerous just as any think overgrown chaparral is and that you should you should make your squad boss knows where you are and what you are doing and the squad bosses should tell the crew boss and the crew boss should tell the sector boss and the sector boss should tell the division boss and the division boss should tell the line boss and the line boss should tell the fire boss and the fire boss should keep the operations and plans chiefs up to speed and crew bosses should communicate with each other who are working in the same sector and there should be a fire plan everybody should have a copy of the fire plan and they should read it and be where they are supposed to be, doing what they are supposed to be doing. Who the fuck needs a list of bullshit rules to tell them common sense stuff. We never did. We fought fire the old fashioned way, with some common sense.
We knew the 10 and the 18 only served ONE purpose and that was cover-their (not your)-ass (the overhead, the agency, the bosses) so they could blame the firefighter if something went wrong. That is all the 10 and the 18 have ever been and that is all they will ever be…bullshit.
It was the same thing in law enforcement. There were General Orders that you had to follow to the letter but nobody enforced them because you couldn’t do your job if you followed the General Orders all of the time to the letter. And supervisors want results…everywhere, so that bullshit is never used unless something goes wrong somewhere and then management pulls them out and goes down the list and checks off the ones the employee violated so they can say it is all the employees fault…not ours, see it says right here they shouldn’t have been doing what they were doing in the first place. The 10 and the 18 are a joke, they always have been and they always will be nothing more than a tool for management to use to screw the employee if something goes wrong.
More to come after I make my oatmeal and have my morning shower. So…stay tuned if you really want to know about the 10 and the 18 and SAFETY in the Forest Circus.
Start the new chapter with 10&18
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/
GARY IS FULL OF SHIT
SO SAYS THOUSANDS OF WILD LAND FIRE FIGHTERS PAST AND PRESENT.
THE MILLIONS OF HOURS WORKED ON FIRES SINCE 1957 THE SAFETY RECORD SPEAKS FOR ITS SELF.
IT IS A WONDER GARY DID NOT KILL MORE FIRE FIGHTERS THAN HE DID.
END OF STORY.
Ouch…that was a low blow.
Hey…I only killed three of them and almost killed a fourth but he did survive…barely.
I already told everyone on this thread, the Happy Jack Hotshots didn’t give a fuck what about happened to the Mormon Lake Hotshots. We weren’t conditioned or authorized to care…and we didn’t. All in a days work.
And as you know, I personally set the fire that killed them and I never lost a night’s sleep over it…slept like a baby and still do.
Your buddy’s buddies killed 19 of them. I wonder how they are sleeping?
I thought you said goodbye already. I hate long good bye’s so will you just leave already. On second thought, stick around…I am getting ready to expose you and your tribe for what you…hypocrites.
I thought you said goodbye already. I hate long good bye’s so will you just leave already. On second thought, stick around…I am getting ready to expose you and your tribe for what you ARE…hypocrites.
Ahhhh…that was some good oatmeal…just like mother used to make…mushy. On second thought, I have to go see a man about some horses today, which is western U.S. slang for I need to take care of some business today, so it will take me awhile to get back to my another MOAP (mother all all posts).
And just in case anybody out there in cyber space is wondering why I am not working on my much anticipated and highly acclaimed book, “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighers” that I MAY now finish because I am plenty pissed off at them, and you know who you are, I am working on it.
This next post will be like a lot of my other MOAPS, it will form the basis of a chapter in my book. So if you have read all of my posts since the thread started you won’t need to buy my book IF it ever comes out because you will already know everything (more or less) that I think about this situation. And in this case, you will know what I think about the 10 and the 18…what are they? THEY ARE BULLSHIT AND CTA FOR MANAGEMENT!
I’ll be back (Terminator).
Gary,
On the surface, what you have said is horrifying! Then, after separating myself from years of mind conditioning and taking another look at your words (not easy to do!), when I really think hard about what you just said…YES! It takes me back to a time when my first regional forester told me in his office one day: “I will stand by you no matter what…unless you break the rules then you are on your own.”
Now, that was the general idea of what he told me but you get the point. I remember nodding my head in agreement. If you really think hard about his advice, you will understand how great a leader that man was. He was the best supervisor I ever had. He had a military background and was a veteran of the conflict in Vietnam. I loved him and will always love him for the man he was and his leadership skill. The man would not sleep if any of his personnel were out on a fire all night. He was a rare breed indeed. Incidentally, the respect he had from all of us was huge and he got a hell of a lot of work out of us because of that fact.
After reading you post, it made me realize just how much he loved his people. I always knew it was a great deal, but now I know it was more than I imagined because he literally told me what the rules were about. He was protecting me to the best of his ability by telling me the truth!
Thank you for your posts. Those who can get past their knee-jerk reaction to you words are in for a deeper understanding of wildfire rules that will benefit them greatly and increase their safety and the safety of those they are responsible for….if they are willing to really delve into the subject and think for themselves.
Woodsman
I actually think as rough and tough as his message is…I had to research it myself so I asked this to the higher ups via emails and Don so far is the only reply..
Big discussion
What do the 10&18 and lces mean to you and your life
Is it a great contributing safety tool
Or is it a bullshit to help higher ups hide behind it as a cya…cover your own ass
Thanks
Joy
But Gary brings a good point should trainers be explaining this that the 10&18 are the rules and if you don’t follow them than it gives the higher ups a chance to hide behind them?
Excellent topic indeed. I always love hearing on the 10&18 education
One reply so far..see-
Hello Joy.
>
> To say the 10 and 18 are BS is to discount how they came to be. When I started in the early 80’s in Hot Shot training, there were the 10 and 13. What does that mean? It means as an industry we made note of another 5 ways to injure or kill wildland firefighters. To say they are BS would also imply that if you ignored all of them and did the opposite, things would go better. I think we can agree that would not be the case, even to the most uneducated reader.
>
> Can a wildland FF, squad boss, captain, sup, etc., ALWAYS follow the 10 and 18, every second, and take into consideration the Common Denominators? No it doesn’t. Many times in a career and fire fight, educated and experienced practitioners will have to weigh the risks of their tactics and strategies, and perhaps take an action that would, for a very short time, seem like it wasn’t exactly complying with all the 10, or seem to ignore one or more of the 18, but as professionals, we are paid to perform risk/benefit analyses in order to do our jobs. In my opinion, if everyone followed the 10 and 18, to the letter, all the time, we would have a really hard time fighting fires. Remember, the 18 are supposed to be “heads up” items. Pay attention- if this is happening things could go badly. Address them and remedy them. Why? Because they have been responsible for bad outcomes in the last. The 10 on the other hand are what we are supposed to do, all the time, every time. While you may not have obtained a forecast for a little while, you certainly should now if something is changing (hotter and drier, spots, not in communication with someone that can glue you that info- sound like the 18?). If fire behavior changes, could there be a brief time that there wasn’t complete control? Could the end of an IA shift of 18 hours cause a problem with “think clearly” or “stay alert”? Certainly. But as a rule, the 10 ARE rules , not suggestions, for the safety of our brothers and sisters on the line. And no, they are not some kind of safety net for supervisors. Supervisors should be working to make sure they are addressed and adhered to for the betterment of the profession and the fight. They are to keep firefighters safe- in a very unsafe environment.
>
> My opinions only.
>
> Don
Joy…as I have said you are a real gem. But you are also ignorant and ignorant people should not try to phrase questions to others they don’t understand themselves because if you put garbage in…you are likely to get garbage out.
And that is just my opinion, just like it is my opinion the 10 and the 18 are bullshit in that, “They need to follow the spirit of the 10 and the 18, not the letter of the 10 and the 18. Does anyone not understand what they means. If you don’t say so, and I will explain it further?”
So actually, IF you understand what I am saying, which you obviously don’t, you will see that Don and I are much closer than we are further apart in our positions. I said I would explain later in detail…wait until I do that before you start asking for second opinions or you will look as stupid as Bob Powers. And you don’t want that do you?
I may be ingnorant—we all are at times— if the alleged topics on RTS are facts in regards to staff ride than you were ignorant in your choice vs maybe someone like Dr. Ted Putnam…so ignorance is not alone…Now if Brian Frisby ever reads this site I would like to pick your brain with just ONE question…Donut is bypassing truth and on path of heroism when we know you and Eric Tarr are my heroes in this YHF moment but watching you “live and in action” that day will you bypass truth too in that you could hold the knowledge who was going to be the lookout for that day that turned into last minute Donut- who was Marsh’s “go-to” lookout guy… Musser in my humble opinion needs to sit in a room with me and answer some real questions.
Bob Powers- I may be just a housewife and desert walker but from my view it is impossible as dictated written in manner they are to follow all the rules all the time for every single person on a crew from the boss to the bottom when you factor in human elements and so far only Don replied out of all higher up folks but what NWCG did was good rules to follow going in but my goal today was not ask the crew but ask the management level which of all the ten that we are to be FIRM and they are wonderful and to FOLLOW- which one out of the ten if you could not follow it would you come off that fire- I GET it is rules not to be bent or broken but it is impossible for an entire crew all of the time to do so I personally like to thank Paul for his time here on Earth—
http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/gleason/hotshot.htm
because four L C E S is much easier for me to remember than ten and eighteen even if I had it in my hard hat —let’s take smokejumpers we met over time that said they kept it in their hats and hard hats but during the stress— pressures and yes even higher up pressures— the mind slips even if you just looked at your hat and said I freaking broke all of them I should walk out and then radio comes on- re-engage and there ya go walking into danger—you are remembering all the 10&18s you are in midst of breaking but REMEMBER this “BEHAVIORS” of self, the fire, the weather, and others on the fire and off the fire CAN interfere with the end decision-bad outcome. How many firefighters have put the years in but don’t have the experience because there was no hands on for that season for them than they just have the season but not the hand on experiences- so that plays in—also wasn’t Robert Caldwell the usual lookout on other fires— anyone know that or was it Rose? How do I get the FOIA answer on that because I am interested on that topic. OH and RTS- in the history of his comments- thank you and Bob Powers too- I won’t engage in the discrediting of these men because RTS currently gives talks and he does an excellent job with his teachings. You always gave me the feeling you felt this crew had a military layer to them yet I do believe incident management were an interference in the end results and you RTS stand strong these men could of walked away from this fire but hmmm do you remember 6-30-13 the same as me? GMHS were tired, hot, worked a full 2 week shift- 16 hours- and remember that dry erase board that very day of how they felt- they began the day with low capability of stress; SPENT…”overwhelming” elements to ensure the proper decision making abilities were up to par-
Let’s get REAL on topic of 10&18; the current trainers should be saying what Woodsman said today- that was spot on Woodsman…spot on…if these trainers teach “follow all the rules- I got your back”—you break any….
I mean that was eye-awakening as you read and re-read Woodsman comment.
I also want to state these men should of not been on that fire that day- end of story.
Thanks woodsman for that reminder of my first FMO he was like that he was always checking on us and he trained us well he was 65 when he retired 35 years fire he was on the Los Padres in the 40’s when many others were in WWII.
I owe my carrier to him and his training he was a hell of a FF and ran our District
with a lot of respect from all of us. Burt Hutchison That is how it was in the 60’s all of those old FF had to make it 35 years to retire and there were a lot of them around.
Most Forests in California did not have a assistant FMO until you hit Southern California. The District I was on the Cannel Meadow Sequoia hat 1 Engine, 3 FPT’s an 1 horse patrol. and a Helicopter around 175,000 Ac.
In 67 I went to the Arroyo Seco RD Angeles only 90.000 Ac. there were 6 Engines,
a water tender, 6 FPT’s, a Helitack crew, 2 ADFMO’s and 2 Hot Shot crews.
There were at that time 5 Hot Shot crews on the Forest. That was Southern Calif.
Bob.,
My first regional forester was telling me more than the words he said, he was telling me: “I will back you no matter what…unless you break the rules then YOU’RE ON YOUR OWN.” He was actually stating the truth to me instead of keeping it the big dark secret that it is. That’s how much he loved his men.
He was telling me how the rules work. As a manager he will cover me, unless I break the rules, then he is not responsible and he will distance himself from me. See how that works? Thus the checklist breakdown of the 10 & 18 after a fire fatality and 100% release of any and all responsibility of overhead or fire managers in the fatalities. It has been subconsciously drilled into our heads, that’s why many, including you focus solely on the 10 & 18 deficiencies, and ignore the possibility of anyone else on the fire having any responsibility whatsoever. The next step is putting it up in a nice neat package (SAIR) and placing a bow on it (staff ride), and the whole truth is buried forever. That’s the deep dark secret of the 10 & 18. Although, in order to stay out of the courtroom, the 10 & 18 analysis is now removed from the process and left up to others to ‘infer.’ Know what I mean, Bob? Hint hint nudge nudge…
Case in point:
10. Fight fire aggressively after having provided for safety first. (which incidentally was number 1 not number 10 when I started)
Be aggressive in fighting fire but if something happens, you weren’t being safe…………..so you’re on your own……….CYA. I even told fred this line of thinking is a fire manager’s wet dream. It is.
To ignore the system is to enable its continuation for ever and ever.
Woodsman
Yes I hear you.
And it should not be that way. The rules should go up and down the Ladder
You should not be a manager on a fire and not use them as well. If that is happening then some one needs to clean house. The safety starts at the IC
And works down from there The 10 and 18 were always part of a shift plan.
From what I saw last year they were in every shift plan in R5,R4, and R6.
IC, OPS and the Safety Officer are the primary people that ensure the Safety is being implemented.
While I have been focused on the Crew it is also the Fire overheads responsibility, We never left our safety or crew safety up to any one
but us. And I still lay that in the lap of Marsh and Steed they had the final say. Evaluating Risk verses accomplishment is Killing FF where did that start coming from? It is totally the wrong Idea on wild land fires
Go back to one foot in the black and bring the black with you assign a lookout as necessary and you cover all the 10 and 18. Go to work and keep informed it is that simple.
Yes, you are right. It is a complex issue and with nuances that are not easily explained by me anyway and may be hard to grasp by even those who have an open mind which is why I didn’t want to start on it this morning. I want to take some time with this and get it right.
For those wildland firefighters (or those who love them) who are mush headed, stubborn as a mule, learn and teach by rote only, or are robotic in their learned behavior (and unfortunately Bob fits into all of these categories, but he was only on the fire line for a couple of seasons and apparently everything turned out OK…thank God because the man is stupid), those individuals will probably never even be able to grasp what I am saying, which is probably OK (it has to be) because most wildland firefighters are smart and can both learn and apply new concepts and ways of thinking.
So…the onus is on me to explain it right, so I am going to take some time with it.
You Have no Idea what I fit into Gary.
But I can tell you out right I Served as a Crew Boss a Sector Boss a Division Boss a OPS2 and IC2 On the line and I never lost a person to a burn over or accident in 33 years not even a serious injury like say a broken leg.
You on the other hand can not claim that and even refuse to accept responsibility for Killing 4 Fire fighters because they were not on your crew.
I think whether you like it or not I have a lot more experience and a high Safety record that even got me assigned to a Regional Fire Safety Team.
That Team actually created a Safety record of 15 years without a Fatality Fire in Region 5. I am proud of that as well and it included a hard directive to follow the 10 and 13. It worked so do not tell me you don’t believe in them when you did not follow Fire Order #7.
Ya I am here as long as you continue to attack me. Then I will continue to tell people what a real hypocrite you are.
Two can play that game.
Excuse me…I only killed 3 firefighters.
I don’t expect you to leave Bob, you don’t have anything else going on in your pathetic life and you haven’t taken up fishin’ in the Snake yet. My offer however, still stands, I will buy you any fishin’ pole you want.
But…in the meantime you are just the gift that keeps on giving. In addition to clearly demonstrating why things in wildland firefighting will never get any better or at least won’t get much better for a long, long time, is because of the ignorant tribal mentality of many wildland firefighters
Only they they think they understand each other and what the problem even is, so only they need to know about it or be involved in the solution.
You demonstrated that brilliantly when you rushed headlong into defending Fred without anything to base your defense on other than he is your girlfriend or bastard son…or both..
And then you compounded your problems because you really are a stupid man by saying more things like, “I bleed green”, the USFS is my heritage and if you insult it, you insult me AND my family, my friends are the MOST important thing in the world to me. You are a trip….man.
Then you went on to show everyone exactly what was wrong with using old, washed up, burned out has beens as front line kick ass fire commanders just because they work cheap.
And FYI…they don’t really work any cheaper but they do cost less because they already have their benefits locked in from their prior service they have already retired from and they can be used PRN which is nursing lingo for “as needed.”
Kind of like using a substitute teacher instead of hiring a full time one when you only need one once in a while. But substitute teachers generally won’t get anybody killed because their brain neurons and synapses aren’t firing like they used to and their cognitive skills are way down. “We ain’t never seen a wildfire do that before!”
But then the real kicker comes when the families of the dead hotshots are disappointed because many of the so called experts who they were promised would be there to answer their questions were not and stupid fuck political hack and newly minted apologist for the Arizona Division of Forestry Jeff Whitney gets to say, “It’s not our fault, they don’t work for us or anyone else so we can’t make them show up and answer anybody’s questions.”
Ya…you stupid fuck, because you hired men to fight you fire to save money who don’t work for you or anybody else so what accountability did you think there was going to be if something went wrong….duhhhhhhhhhh? Last time, this time or next time…I repeat, you stupid fuck.
And now, just like your girlfriend and bastard son before you, you have really stepped in it by trying to tell me something about my own crew. Now I know where you girlfriend and bastard son got that from, along with his mangina, from you. Are all R-5 crews like the Oak Grove Hotshot Alumni? Please say it ain’t so…it can’t be.
You have now gone and showed everyone in writing a great example of why it is important that the agencies develop fictional staff rides based on nothing but bullshit and lies, oh…and more lies. Stupid fucks like you believe them so you don’t learn the real lessons that should be learned from wildland firefighters death.
Where to start. I don’t actually feel like going through two chapter of my book in this format just to prove how stupid you really are but it is tempting.
So…I am just going to give you the Readers Digest version and call it good.
1, The Happy Jack Hotshots knew exactly where the Mormon Lake Hotshots were…we could see them on the fucking slope above us.
2. The Mormon Lake Hotshots knew exactly where the Happy Jack Hotshots were, they could see us on the fucking slope below them.
3. There was a shift plan, both crew bosses had the shift plan. The shift plan called for the Happy Jack Hotshots to ignite the burn out on command which was given. And then I and my fellow sawyer who were the burn out team dropped down into the arroyo and ignited the burn out.
4. The Mormon Lake Hotshots watched the backfire build and advance towards them for about four hours. During this time, our crew bosses maintained constant radio communication on not only their fire net radios but there Coconino Fire Net radios because Mormon Lake is only about 12 miles from Happy Jack. The two crew bosses has worked together for years, they were friends or at least work associates.
5. The Mormon Lake Crew Boss Tony Czak clearly recognized the danger that they were in and he sent the bulk of his crew (16) to the safety zone at the appropriate time as the fire plan called for.
6. And yes, you are understanding me correctly. The BLM fire boss and other overhead PLANNED to have one hotshot crew set a backfire below another hotshot crew on a very steep brush choked slope full of 12 foot high frost killed Gambel Oak that was so explosive it was nicknamed Fuel Type X by the Colorado Division of Forestry who has studied it extensively for years because it is known to run down and kill mature MULE DEER.
7. But guess what? The Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew Boss did the following things.
a. He kept a three man team plus himself in the death zone to finish the job and he ignored or discoutned the danger of a chute on a very steep slope that the fire ran up and cut off their escape.
b. He failed to tell his sector boss what he was doing because he knew the sector boss would tell him to didi mau most ricky tick motherfucker because he wanted to be a hero and make sure their burnout was complete (they had problems getting it going and they arrived late due to a helicopter problem) and he thought maybe it wouldn’t hold the burnout building below them. Which I have never understood because they were up against the vertical rock bluffs of Battlement Mesa of course it would hold and if it didn’t who gave a fuck? It may have slopped over the other side but then it would have been a backing fire and could have easily been picked up. .
c. Mormon Lake was a brand new crew that year and the crew boss had a big chip on his shoulder because he was one arrogant, hard to get along with, full of hubris who was in a really big hurry to prove his hotshot crew was not only better than the other three already on the forest but the best nation wide and he was known to take risks which were accepted on a forest with a hyper hotshot program on steroids who FOUGHT FIRE AGGRESSIVELY but provided for safety first (second in other words).
Now…do you anything else to say you stupid fuck…Bob Powers?
Oh…and one more thing. I slept like a baby that first night and every night since.
And everybody knows exactly what you fit into Bob because you keep showing them exactly where you fit.
The number one rule when you are in a hole is…stop digging.
And of course that statement is hyperbole like I am prone to make to get attention. Hey…it worked for “The Donald” and now he is the first certified nut job to actually land one of the two major party nominations for the leader of the free world. You just can’t argue with success. Who wants to bet he loses the election by sayyyyy….a 50 state margin?
Whoops…got distracted….again. I technically should have said I have never missed a good night’s sleep after the Battlement Creek Fire or what happened there.
BUT….I have missed a lot of night’s sleep since the Yarnell Hill Fire, especially in the first few weeks after it happened.
I knew exactly what had happened on the Battlement Creek Fire almost as soon as it did, or as soon as I had time to think about it. We all did. We knew Tony Czak.
Like I keep saying…I am smart and I went to the best wildland firefighting school in the nation. It was held every year for new hires on hotshot crews on the Mighty Coconino. I know what I am talking about, I have been there and done that and I have the T-Shirt to prove it..
After three years, I still don’t understand what the fuck happened to our crew on the Yarenll Hill Fire. Like I have said before, most of you have no idea what a big deal this was.
Everyone had to re-calibrate all of the Oh-Fuck-Me-Meters to measure that disaster. It wasn’t just one more on a list. It was unthinkable right up until the minute our worst nightmare became our reality.
That one was way off all of the known charts in a class all by itself. And I hope it stays in a class all by itself…forever.
Correction, “You have now gone and showed everyone in writing a great example of why it is important that the agencies DO NOT, i repeat, DO NOT NOT NOT develop fictional staff rides based on nothing but bullshit and lies, oh…and more lies. Stupid fucks like you believe them so you don’t learn the real lessons that should be learned from wildland firefighters death.”
I certainly do not have to justify my self to some one who will not accept the responsibility for Killing FF and could care less. You are the only one here who needs a shrink.
On the staff Ride what did I say over and over it was a fucking show me trip. Nothing more nothing less.
You have fallen into childish behavior and the king of the play yard sand box but you do not even deserve that distinction. You are a real mental problem and should take some time out.
You cant change who I am and what I have accomplished so your jealousy is taken over your sanity.
Move on or bail out..
To Bob, Fred and any one else in the 10-18 camp
At https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/ soon I will delving in to GMHS and the 10-18 on each one of them.
I am Not disputing the merits of the 10-18, but at Yarnell I don’t believe it is as simple as that. Futher more if ather spending almost 3 years ofyour lives trying to convice most whom already believe in the Basic Tennors of the 10-18*******************IS THAT ALL YOU GOT********************Nothing? Really?*************
Some people here and elsewhere have been working to understand all that went wrong that day NOT JUST THE 10 and FUCKING 18
19 Men Perish in such a horrific way and all you bring to the table is the 10-18.
My personal solution is a better Fire Shelter then none of whent wrong that day would matter. Other ideas that relate to new and updated technology, Had some of the ideas been EMBRACED, ACCEPTED, IMPLEMENTED just a couple of things could have been game changer.
But if you former, retired or current WFFs that are just all about the 10-18 that GMHS didn’t follow and all the other points that I am sure that are well picked out hang your hat on…….So you can sleep at night, Tell your wife and kids it will be ok, I follow the 10-18, I won’t be Like GMHS, “Honey if I would have been on that Crew we would never have got caught out like that “10-18” Sweetie.
Write a Letter to your loved ones, put it in a sealed envolope, write on it “Do Not Open Till I Die”
on the letter inside Write ” I am sorry that I let you down, fucked up and didn’t follow the 10-18. I got what I deseverd. No need to do a investigation because I was completly at fault. Please tell everyone in the WildLand Community that they shouldn’t change a thing on account of me, Remember sweetheart they are hurting too.
Love,
Idiot on the FireLine with my Dick in my Hand.
PS at least I wont have to eat you terrible cooking
Wait a minute here…what man MARRIES a female who can’t cook? What is this world coming to…
I did.
Yeah but to defend your wife she works crazy hours and I thank her for her long time service doing what she does and I love her for doing what she does…
Good woman.
I have her on a high pedestal so to me if she cannot cook…does she have the desire? I have taken the worst of the worst and gave them the tools to be the best…always there for people like your wife.
I bow down to Mrs. Olson
No…she doesn’t even try, especially now, but I don’t care. As usual. I’m just joking (although she really can’t cook and doesn’t try) because I am such a FUN guy.
to me—cooking is a layer of love…I can take a raw tear jerking onion and make a mouth salivate of the sweetness it can offer after it just made you bawl-
I can take a tough looking steak and by the time it hits your place you can cut into it with a butter knife…
You haven’t lived until you cooked with love… 🙂
Sonny opens a can of sardines and he’s good…he would not put out funds to make the plates I can create- correction he did a few times but it doesn’t impress him fine quality food but to me LIFE IS…fine foods and fine company 🙂
Reply to David Turbyfill post on May 3, 2016 at 11:02 pm
>> David Turbyfill said…
>>
>> Staff Ride, Beta, Still after several weeks of reflection is hard to get
>> my head around ICMT Group, thier thoughts and ideas of how to
>> manage a fire. How they put this dog and pony show on for the
>> families, I am super proud of Juliann Ascraft, she is composed and
>> fairly spot on, full of questions and willing and waiting for plausable answers.
Mr. Turbyfill…
Speaking of ‘Questions’ and ‘Answers’…
I was just wondering… since you were obviously invited to particpate in the settlement-mandated ‘Family members ( Beta ) Staff Ride’… were you ALSO invited to attend the equivalent settlement mandated ‘Question and Answer Day’ which we now know took place way back on February 5, 2016?
The Prescott Daily Courier just ran an article about that crucial settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer Day’ and that article is here…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Families, officials walk in the final footsteps of the Hotshots
Published: April 29, 2016 – By Cindy Barks
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/
The article reported on BOTH the ‘Family Staff Ride’ AND the ‘Question and Answer Day’, and reported that many ‘Family members’ were frustrated because despite the additional settlement-mandated requirement that the ‘Family members’ themselves determine WHO should be in attendance in order to ‘answer their questions’… Arizona Forestry was unable ( or unwilling? ) to fulfill that settlement-mandated requirement.
Many of the ‘key players’ in the Yarnell Hill Fire that the ‘Family members’ requested be THERE to answer their questions were NOT there.
From that article…
————————————————————————————-
PRESCOTT – When the State of Arizona and 12 families of fallen Granite Mountain Hotshots settled a wrongful death lawsuit in June 2015, the Arizona State Forestry Division agreed to do nine things.
Now, about 10 months later, a number of those points have been accomplished, and others are in the works, say officials with the State Forestry Division.
First on the list was a promise to conduct an eight-hour question-and-answer session with the Hotshot families to “review data and information and to answer questions posed by the families and their consultants/experts.”
“Some families chose not to come,” Deborah Pfingston said of the question-and-answer session, which took place in Phoenix on Feb. 5, 2016.
For some, concerns centered on the level of participation among the wildland officials who were onsite at the Yarnell Hill fire in 2013.
“I got frustrated with it, because the people who know the answers weren’t going to be there,” Linda Caldwell said, maintaining that the session appeared to be “lip service,” without the participation of key local officials who were in charge the day of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Pfingston also mentioned the absence of some of the key local wildland officials who decided not to participate. “That was a little frustrating,” she said.
She said, “I think they held their line. I do believe there are some that are still holding information, because of the ramifications.”
Specifically, she said, the officials stood behind the Serious Accident Investigation Report, which she said was “extremely flawed, and full of holes.”
————————————————————————————-
So I was just wondering if YOU, yourself, had the opportunity to particpate in this settlement mandated “Question and Answer Day”.
If you were NOT invited to attend… were you given any explanation ( by Arizona Forestry ) as to WHY you were ‘not invited’?
The settlement agreement put the ‘particpation level’ for BOTH the ‘Question and Answer Day’ AND the ‘Family Staff Ride’ at the equivalent level of being open to ALL ‘Family members’.
So if YOU, yourself, did not even receive an invitation to the ‘Question and Answer Day’ as you were invited to attend the ‘Staff Ride’… I would be curious if Arizona Forestry also gave YOU any ‘explanation’ as to WHY you ( as a Family Member ) were being ‘excluded’ from this crucial ‘Question and Answer Day’.
“So I was just wondering if YOU, yourself, had the opportunity to particpate in this settlement mandated “Question and Answer Day”.
in short, no I was not at the Q&A day.
Longer version; I had been in to a private meeting last summer with Jeff Whittney and also met with Joy H, expressed my desire to attend said Q&A meetting, they said they thought it might ok but needed to run it by the Attorneys, Ultimately the Plaintiff Attorneys didn’t want any one that was not part of their case to participate, according to Joy H.
The staff ride, while it’s creation may have been part of the settlement and a recomidation from the SIAR, that in it self didn’t proclude me or anyone else.
This is bore out by the Attendence of Mrs. Mckee, she was not part of the settlement, her case was outright dissmissed with predjtice. This is the same reason that the McGroder group had to settle as well, but State Fire used this littigation to help settle the citations from ADOSH.
To bad the ICMT didn’t have as good of tactics and strategy as the States Attorneys did, maybe GMHS would still be here, STILL NOT Following the 10-18 though. Lol
Reply to David Turbyfill post on May 4, 2016 at 10:56 pm
>> David Turbyfill said…
>>
>> in short, no I was not at the Q&A day.
Thank you.
And again… I am so very sorry for your loss… and what you have also had to endure as part of its aftermath.
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> Longer version; I had been in to a private meeting last
>> summer with Jeff Whittney and also met with Joy H,
>> expressed my desire to attend said Q&A meetting, they
>> said they thought it might ok but needed to run it by the
>> Attorneys,
You lost your son in the Yarnell Hill Fire when he was working as a contractor in an Arizona Forestry workplace… and Jeff Whitney and Joy Hernbrode of Arizona Forestry thought it (quote) “might be ok” if you attended an already-planned meeting where family members were to be allowed to ask ‘questions’ about why they lost their sons and husbands?
That’s fucking priceless.
Actually… it’s not. That’s disgusting… and just one more example of how this totally taxpayer funded and supported public service organization ( Arizona Forestry ) thinks it can get away with acting like a private corporation and just ‘hide behind lawyers’ all the time.
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> Ultimately the Plaintiff Attorneys didn’t want any one that was
>> not part of their case to participate, according to Joy H.
So it was Patrick McGroder himself who decided this, eh?
As mentioned above… as far as these two settlement-required ‘events’ as listed in Appendix A of the agreement were concerned ( the ‘Q/A session’ AND the ‘Staff Ride’ ) there was NOTHING in that document that would distinguish one as being “only for the family members who used a particular lawyer” versus the other being “for all family members who lost a loved one in that Arizona Forestry workplace”.
But now we see that such a ‘distinction’ WAS being made AFTER THE FACT,
by attorney Patrick McGroder.
1. Staff Ride – EVERYONE who LOST a son or husband invited.
2. The chance to ask real questions and expect answers? – Not so much.
That really does just make me want to throw up.
I certainly hope EVERY father and mother and husband and wife who sends their loved one out to work in an Arizona Forestry workplace has been watching ALL of these shenanigans VERY closely… so they can see who their sons and husbands and wives are REALLY ‘working for’… and what will happen to THEM if Arizona Forestry arranges for more of them to burn to death.
Followup…
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> The staff ride, while it’s creation may have been part of
>> the settlement and a recomidation from the SIAR, that
>> in it self didn’t proclude me or anyone else.
>> This is bore out by the Attendence of Mrs. Mckee, she was
>> not part of the settlement, her case was outright
>> dissmissed with predjtice.
Marcia McKee’s ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit filed on behalf of her son, Grant McKee, is still on APPEAL… and that case has NOT ‘resolved’ yet.
It very well *might* still go forward.
It all comes down to whether the Arizona appeals court feels like some podunk lower court Judge had the right to decide the whole ‘sovereign immunity’ issue for the entire State of Arizona… one of the states in the Union that still does NOT actually have ANY ‘sovereign immunity’ rights for State employees codified into its own constitution.
Even if the regular ‘appeals’ court in Arizona keeps the original ‘dismissal’ in place based on that lowly lower court Judge’s ‘opinion’… the actual ‘sovereign immunity’ issue is BIG enough, and IMPORTANT enough ( legally speaking ) to allow Mrs. McKee to then request a ruling from the Arizona Supreme Court itself.
Even Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney just said ( in PUBLIC ) that Mrs. McKee’s lawsuit is ‘still on appeal’… and has NOT been resolved yet.
From that same Prescott Daily Courier article linked to up above…
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/
—————————————————————
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney pointed out that the question and-answer session was intended to be conducted “after all litigation is concluded, including appeals.”
While noting this past week that property-loss lawsuits and one wrongful death appeal are still pending, he said the Forestry Division determined, “It’s too important not to do this now.
—————————————————————
What Whitney FAILED to say was that he was PRESSURED to “do it now” by ( guess who? )… Patrick McGroder… because of the pressure HE was getting from HIS ‘clients’.
I AGREE I WORKED FOR STATE FORESTRY FOR 5 YRS AND NOTHING BUT HEADS TURNED THE OTHER WAY, NO ONE SEEMS TO KNOW OR HEAR THINGS AND JUST SO MUCH MORE BS ITS CRAZY. I WAS FORCED TO RESIGN FROM STATE FORESTRY AS AN IADP AT ADC AND LITERLY MEAN FORCED OR SHALL I SAY THREATEND TO SHORTLY AFTER YHF BY PETE MASIEL. IF I KNEW THEN WHAT I DO NOW BUT I CANT THINK LIKE THAT IN THE LONG RUN IT ENDED UP A GOOD THING BUT HAS DESTROYED THINGS FOR ME AS WELL.
Did Jeff and Joy choose that…I don’t buy that reasoning when you lost a son…no way…this has to stop.. I am so sorry you were shown that treatment. You must admit though from day one this was not your first missed opportunity… You have not been treated proper from the get go… Idiots they are…and that means people who use to know David long ago who in the start did not see the human factor that this is his son…the whole ex stuff bothered me on this fire…and as the desert walker I saw segregation over bs topic ex husband and wives…that never settled right by me and a reason I stay in it…Dave I have a cd coming of the question and answers and will be posted here so you will know all that they give us…and people that were there can confirm that’s it or its been redacted or edited
Let me try this again
Bob Powers Writes
****Well Dave seems to know a lot of nothing. “*****
Bob I might just know more than you think I know.
Bob goes on “First I have read to important E-Mails of thanks from Mrs. McKee and her very close friend Praising and Thanking RTS. Who was with Dave and two other Families on the Walk which Mrs. McKee asked RTS to Finish and meet her at the Deployment site”*****
I will stand corrected, if Mrs. McKee is happy then I am Happy, this is not what was nessicarily communicated to myself.
*****Bob also States; “Also Dave would rather Put People in Fire Shelters than continue to train in the 10 and 18. I do not expect him or his Wife to understand them as he was never a Wild Land Fire Fighter.****
You’re Right, never worked as a WFF for team green. But growing up where I did and Wanting to be one from a very early age, then to see firsthand how Team Green “Really Worked” “NOT” didn’t work out for us. Put my efforts in another direction including being a member of Groom Creek Fire, where we trained for all types of response, WUI, Structure, Medical, and we did more than jack off at a fire, since “WE” wanted to go home at night. I want to make it clear I am NOT in favor of abandoning the 10-18, just not as confident as you and some others that GMHS broke all of them, but I will get to that at another time.
****Bob Powers*** “No one is discussing the fact that in 2000 degrees how long will your Oxygen last under that Shelter? Maybe you can build a Shelter that will withstand 2000 Degrees but what will happen to the oxygen? “********
Bob remember this statement “Well Dave seems to know a lot of nothing.” One thing is for sure you seem to only know how to read the back of the Pocket Guide, and I know that it’s not covered in the 10-18 but the first thing they teach you in Fire Seince Classes is the Fire Triangle; HEAT-FUEL-OXYGEN. My idea for better shelters doesn’t end at the shelter but needs a Rescue Respirator of 10-20 minute potential, not a pressurized cylinder, although MTDC has/is looking at the pressurized version.
Thank you Dave
That clears up some of my confusion and that is what is hard to get a hold of here.
My concerns as always have been the continued adding of weight to the FF pack.
Along with If you make a shelter to with stand any thing will the fire fighters rely more on it than the proven safety rules. Training to deploy rather than training to be safe?
A better Shelter has always been a request by Wild Land Fire Fighters.
In fact in 1973 in California I was on the Safety First Team and we requested to R5 that a better shelter needed to be built. That never happened and here we are today still requesting.
In the Fire triangle HEAT is critical when you need a Shelter. There are all kinds of fuel.
If you deploy in a timber fire in a small area (you can not always pick the perfect location.
With a 2000 degree Shelter you are still in a heavy fuel that could keep you in the shelter for 30 min. or longer. A 10 – 20 min. oxygen cylinder may not be enough. Yes I have read the instructions on the Shelter. The crazy part put your face into the ground to get as much Oxygen as you can. The hotter the fire the more OXYGEN it consumes the Shelter is not going to supply the OXYGEN you need for a extended period. A shelter built to with stand 650 degrees is as I have said BS.
I am sorry that some here Think the Forest Service dose not care about Safety for Fire Fighters from my perspective that is not true and has never been true. The Forest Service has been the leader in Safety and the development of Safety equipment. While I guess I am a Company man I grew up in the Forest service and made it a carrier. at the young age of 4 My dad started in the FS he was killed when I was 9. My mother actually remarried back in to the FS a year latter. I grew up in the Mountains on Ranger stations. Spent 1 year at 17 working as a FF for the CAL STATE FIRE then went to work for the FS. So you can fault me if you want but it is my Heritage.
The SAIT did a great disservice to the Families and FF by the way they left so many questions unanswered and did not assign responsibility from the top down.
There were just so many things wrong with this fire from top to bottom and the crew got caught in the multitude of bad decisions. That is when their survival mode should have kicked in. They were there they were safe in the BLACK there was no reason to take the huge risk and move down thru unburned fuel for any reason they were up on that mountain the only ones that had to challenge the fire to move out. That is and will always be the defining moment when following the rules and checking the watchouts was absolutely critical. There was no reason or threat by any source to leave the Black and put the crew at risk traveling in front of a moving Fire Front thru unburned fuel. My whole training and that of many I know says Stay right there the fire activity was dictating that the Weather Forecast was Dictating that. 2 of the 10 even if you remove every thing else that was enough to not move. The beginning of the domino effect if you ignore those first signs the very basics of fire projections. The fuels, Temp. Hum, winds the time of day your location to the fire.
Thanks for your response Dave I would not have come back but to answer you.
I found peace with what happened to my Dad I hope you do to. Keep pushing for answers.
Bob Powers
Bob Powers Writes
>>Well Dave seems to know a lot of nothing. <>First I have read to important E-Mails of thanks from Mrs. McKee and her very close friend Praising and Thanking RTS. Who was with Dave and two other Families on the Walk which Mrs. McKee asked RTS to Finish and meet her at the Deployment site.<>> Bob also States; >>>Also Dave would rather Put People in Fire Shelters than continue to train in the 10 and 18. I do not expect him or his Wife to understand them as he was never a Wild Land Fire Fighter.<<>> Bob Powers>>>>>No one is discussing the fact that in 2000 degrees how long will your Oxygen last under that Shelter? Maybe you can build a Shelter that will withstand 2000 Degrees but what will happen to the oxygen? <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Bob remember this statement “Well Dave seems to know a lot of nothing.” One thing is for sure you seem to only know how to read the back of the Pocket Guide, and I know that it’s not covered in the 10-18 but the first thing they teach you in Fire Science Classes is the Fire Triangle; HEAT-FUEL-OXYGEN. My idea for better shelters doesn’t end at the shelter but needs a Rescue Respirator of 10-20 minute potential, not a pressurized cylinder, although MTDC has/is looking at the pressurized version.
Zack Ashoor was working on that Dave and maybe someone is still doing that at the Arizona Respiratory Board-
Joy, do not know anyone named Zack Ashoor, where and whom does he work for? He is working on Fire Shelters?
The Fire Shelter work I had been doing has been with the folks at MTDC in Missoula Mt.
No Zack Ashoor knew some of the men…he had such a wonderful energy and he worked for the Arizona State respiratory board trying to create emergency lightweight portable respiratory oxygen system that could withstand extreme heat exposure and Sonny hiked him during a time I was off doing my own thing but I remembered the kid calling when on a date and he was a neat kid…he went hiking during the thickness laid retardant drop and he died.
This Is Zack
https://www.giveforward.com/fundraiser/rh64
**
** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH SAYS THE YARNELL INVESTIGATION
** NEEDS TO BE ‘REOPENED’… THERE IS ‘MORE TO KNOW’…
First off… a big THANK YOU to Joy Collura for that ’roundup’ of links below to all the ‘appearances’ that Brendan McDonough is making right now ( and in the last 48 hours or so ) on his ‘book promotion tour’.
He’s been basically pushing this thing as hard as he can and his publisher has obviously set him up with DOZENS of ‘interviews’ even just in the last 48 hours. He must be ‘wiped out’ just from these ‘appearances’ alone.
But here is something VERY interesting that Brendan said on the radio, at one of the ‘interview’ links Joy just provided below…
KTAR News ( Radio )
May 2, 2016 – Hour: 3
http://ktar.com/player/?a=321314
Content description…
Mac and Gaydos of KTAR Radio talk with Brendan McDonough, the sole survivor of the Yarnell Hill Fire that killed 19 of his firefighting brothers. Brandon wrote the book “My Lost Brothers.” which will be available for sale tomorrow, May 3, 2016.
From this radio interview with Brendan McDonough…
—————————————————————————————
+16:23
Interviewer: With the investigation… did you… did you read over the investigation?
Do you kind of agree with what the investigation found?
What were your thoughts on how it all kinda sort of ended and wrapped up with the government investigating everything?
+16:34
Brendan McDonough: I think with the investigation there’s some things that… there’s definitely some things that have been found since then. Since the investigation. I believe it needs to be opened up again and some… certain things need to be added to it because… any decision that was made that day led to their death… and we need to learn from that… and the wildfire community needs to have those answers and those lessons so that we can prevent this again. So I believe there’s a LOT of information that has been found and… will probably CONTINUE to be found for quite some time that needs to be put… put in there… so when someone looks it up that they can… they can SEE it… they can LEARN from it. Ya know… 20 years from down from the road these young fireman can… can SEE these lessons learned… and PREVENT it.
—————————————————————————————–
So Brendan is specifically calling for the ‘re-opening’ of the Yarnell Hill Fire investigation and he says (quote) “certain things need to be added to it” because (quote) “any decision that was made that day led to their deaths”.
There’s no other way to read that other than to now assume Brendan is SURE there is “more to learn” about why the GM Hotshots ended up where they were… and that these ‘other things’ that he is sure have YET to be revealed represent important “lessons to learn” for future Wildland Firefighters.
He basically just said that he believes there were “decisions made” along the lines of “orders from fire command” that were made that day ( and which caused them to end up where they were ) which have yet to be revealed… but still SHOULD be revealed.
And he’s not talking here about ORDERS from just Eric Marsh, either.
Brendan seems to be saying “look up” and ask WHY even Eric Marsh would have been insisting that Jesse Steed bring the crew out of the ‘safe black’.
I don’t know if Brendan also “goes there” in his book, or not, ( I have still not read his book )… but that sure as heck is what he just implied ( in PUBLIC ) on the radio.
wwtktt said:
I don’t know if Brendan also “goes there” in his book, or not, ( I have still not read his book )… but that sure as heck is what he just implied ( in PUBLIC ) on the radio.
my reply: and again thank you Brendan
also when DuPuy the dispatcher commented on the NO EXIT movie page-
Mark Peveto said he was on the fire so can this person PLEASE step forward and say HOW the movie CAN get it RIGHT—
I don’t do facebook but I want HIS name tagged to THIS site:
Mark Peveto Mesa Interagency Hotshot Crew
also would like to name Darby Starr, Sun City West FD
would love you to share in purity what YHF meant to you
and name Coy Boggler from Sun City West..please step forward and share YHF in your words—
would love to hear from— Sun City West Fire District Assistant Chief Mary Dalton; a Prescott area resident and her son is a wildland firefighter who knew the men in the crew and what is your take on the YHF
is your name below?
I would love to tag you to THIS site and hear your side of the YHF:
Darby Starr – Sun City West FD Paul Dutra – Mesa FD Gus Carboun – Mesa FD Wayne Clement – Guadalupe FD Chad Leas – Buckeye Valley FD Troy Shepherd – Harquahala FD Dan Davis – Glendale FD Craig Demerling – Sun Lakes FD Ariel Barr – Sun Lakes FD RobRoy Williams – BLM Bob Matthews – Tempe FD Al DiBenedetto – Scottsdale FD Mike Godleski – Sun City FD Manuel B. Vasquez – Sun City FD Todd Foster – Tempe FD
Gary- you will like this photo 🙂
https://www.facebook.com/1616135541938820/photos/pb.1616135541938820.-2207520000.1462402994./1623492037869837/?type=3&theater
Yes, that one is a keeper.
one day I would like to meet the mother and child of Anthony Rose-
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131107yarnell-hotshots-widow-gives-birth-daughter.html
Marcia- I have HOPE you will have your day…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2458419/Tiffany-Hettrick-widow-Hotshot-firefighter-Anthony-Rose-killed-Arizona-blaze-gives-birth-baby-girl.html
this was a great archived article—
I would love to have a sit down with Wade Ward later on when he retires on topic- you guessed it; YHF
also would like to hear from any employee/firefighter/hotshot from:
http://bia.gov/nifc/operations/IHP/Zuni/
what about you- Prescott Fire Battalion Chief Ralph Lucas n Don Devendorf…feel like opening up here on this site?
by the way I am not a fan of Roy Hall because he made this public comment:
“There’s no smoking gun here,” said Hall, a retired U.S. Forest Service firefighter who now works part time for the Arizona Division of Forestry. “There’s nothing we could have done differently that would necessarily have changed the outcome.”
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/20131002yarnell-hill-fire-report-commander.html
it’s a bullshit…when he said there is NOTHING that could of been done differently that would necessarily have changed the outcome.”…
the other bullshit was this:
Investigators said the fire “outperformed their expectations,”
That fire was containable early on…idiots…so you want to talk who are idiots…it is the ones running this circus
I remember 9/11 because it affected me on a personal (family/friend) level…but when I say…
ALWAYS REMEMBER-
Fill in the blank:
I was ________________ when I heard the news of the YHF and it took lives and homes.
I was just coming out the front door of the Yavapai College evacuation shelter when Eddie Trevino came up to us the hikers and we the hikers were in a squabble because Dewanna had just told me that fire officials were in the Yavapai college analyzing Arizona maps on fires that had not yet happened but they were naming off Hualapai and Globe area and that happen soon after returning from evacuation…and Eddie’s high energy and spirit was so sweet and Anne Ryman too of Arizona Republic and hearing the news was like a punch to the gut and immediately it felt like these 19 were ALWAYS going to be REMEMBERED and I hold a lot of HOPE that clarity WILL BE reached- I did not hear the news that night on 6-30-13 about the homes or the firefighters because I was outside in the college parking lot with Sonny trying to encourage that togetherness indoors would be a good thing but Sonny felt like the whole deal was a prison martial law bs and wanted no part of it but Sonny helped so many peoples’ lives when he went in that evacuation building and to this day truly many come to me thanking me and Sonny for being there for them from the very start and never giving up so that they can carry on and move forward. On July 1st, 2013 the evacuation shelter surprised me with a beautiful birthday cake and such a special gathering and it was not until my birthday I learned 19 men died and watched as the desert walker that I am on tv the aerial shots and I know that terrain BETTER THAN anyone so I was watching and labelling for the people who’s home was on the aerial and to this day people are in disbelief how I knew it was THEIR home by quick shots on a tv media aerial few second shot and I was SPOT ON…it angered people that I knew it was THEIR home and they did not realize it by aerial shots so I took photos of the tv shots and we went on evacuation computers and we sat and reviewed photos/described how I knew and I held so deeply and I mean DEEP people who wept for 19 men and they lost their homes and it was sooooo deep that I am a sensitive gal but “feelings” or connecting to every day folks was way too new for me…I only knew A-listers and govt folks or just people normal every day folks don’t know or interact with and view on their boob tubes…so here I am hugging with depth strangers just to me in my desert walking mind folks on the map on who to ask for permission to walk across their land or not…I did not socially know the community like activities just my walks and talks and helping people in need…so that was way new to me and I am not a gal who hugs like that…shit I am the one who learned the photos I took were of the GMHS from Joanna Dodder of the daily courier—and I am the shit head that when on the Weavers told widows…yes widows after a very brief greet as I walked away “happy trails”…who the hell says that but the desert walker who is desensitized that these widows just had their loved ones perish—so I have not been all great in this YHF aftermath but then again I can say I have been PRESENT and GENUINE and will not abandon this journey and sure in hell hope RTS and Bob can share what they were doing when they heard the news and continue to be here and Gary you know better than that to say you wish they never came back because in reality we are a family unit and a lot of this family unit have faced loved one losses and some due to fire or tragedy or accidents so let’s embrace and respect another for WHO we are versus tearing down another.
I did chuckle on the stay in the crew carrier comment about Bob not because I can see Bob doing that but the stuff that comes out of your mouth—
I dedicate my life ONCE…STILL…ALWAYS have…AWLAYS will for the ones affected to the YHF…
these are my strong memories of the YHF aftermath…within a week coming back I was helping people clean debris…fix lines…just hardwork day in and out with no rest and this footage aired-
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130705yarnell-fire-andrew-ashcraft-obit.html
and then I was hooked at the thought these kids no longer have a dad and how can we honor their loss and I know I failed at times because it is all new to me how to interact with the world online and offline…even though there is no friendships built with some…I can tell you there is peace where there use to be pain and anger…
This fire was not wild in the start but due to HIGHER UPS’ miscalculations and miscommunications and chaos and just a mess…so I am not going to ever move on like some wish I would…I am gonna KEEP asking for FOIAs and looking under rugs
I remember helping UNITED WAY by us the hikers delivering so many FREE items and one home I put so much free yard tools and cleaning tools and paper goods and water and food to have them later with tone say “why the hell are you leaving me cleaning items when my house burnt down and there is no God damn home to clean”
You felt the anger when it was said…I mean I felt it but looking back it was kind of funny but we figured they can use it later and it was FREE right then and who knows if it was gonna be there later on…I cannot tell you HOW MANY times I was -not Sonny- the ANGER punching bag in all this from so many…but I remained. I too, Gary, have been officially and in a court room and by state been asked to walk away and move on but how can any person do that when NINETEEN men perished? I cannot.
http://www.abc15.com/news/region-central-southern-az/other/yarnell-fire-arizona-fire-that-killed-19-now-8-contained
at 59 second mark—possible African American
there is about 6 videos/photos I remember online of the man and WHY I am up late trying to look—
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 4, 2016 at 1:28 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> at 59 second mark—possible African American
Yes. Possible. ( You are talking about the THIRD video in the ‘toolbar’ on that page… and the fellow with the Blue Helmet who is giving arm signals to the helicopter, right? ).
That would make him a ‘Helitack’ crew member ( Exact Unit unknown ).
Even if he had any kind of ‘Cajun Accent’… it’s doubtful this Helitack would have been the one being heard asking Granite Mountain at 4:13 PM, June 30, 2016…
“Granite Montun… ( Caller’s CALLSIGN? )… wuz yo stay-tus rat now?”
I really wish that third WORD there in that radio capture was more clear.
It very likely IS the ‘callsign’ of whoever was making that radio callout at 4:31 PM.
As far as I can tell ( even with audio enhancement )… that THIRD WORD is
still either something like ‘Five’ or ‘Fire’.
Definitely sounds like the START of the word are the letters ‘F’ and ‘I’.
I know we’ve been over this before… but I’ll ask it again as long as we are revisiting this 4:13 PM radio transmission with that ‘heavy accent’ on whoever was calling GM.
Is it ever common for someone to actually just use the callsign ‘Fire’ on a Wildland Fire… and if so… WHO is that supposed to represent… and is that ‘common knowledge’?
In other words… if you ever actually HEAR someone using the callsign ‘Fire’… are you supposed to assume that is someone in particular like the actual IC… or one of the Safety Officers… or what?
there is about 6 videos/photos I remember online of the man and WHY I am up late trying to look—
Typo above…
I typed 4:30 where I should have typed 4:13.
I was ONLY talking about that 4:13 PM radio callout in the previous post, so that sentence above should have read like this…
————————————–
I really wish that third WORD there in that radio capture was more clear.
It very likely IS the ‘callsign’ of whoever was making that radio callout at 4:13 PM.
————————————–
I am still looking for that other footage of the missing Cajun-
16:50 mark
thank you Brendan 🙂
http://ktar.com/player/?a=321314
could you one day be one of those people—that speak up too?
http://fernandasantosbooks.com/press/
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/04/29/families-of-killed-firefighters-hike-path-of-yarnell-fire/83704296/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iks_ZjXnpZ4
http://www.abc15.com/news/region-northern-az/prescott/brendan-mcdonough-update-sole-survivor-of-yarnell-hill-fire-releases-book
http://www.cbs5az.com/Clip/12404772/sole-survivor-of-yarnell-hill-fire-remembers-brothers-in-new-book
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 4, 2016 at 12:33 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> 16:50 mark
>>
>> thank you Brendan 🙂
>>
>> http://ktar.com/player/?a=321314
>>
>> could you one day be one of those people—that speak up too?
What Brendan actually says there in that KTAR radio interview he gave just the other day ( on May 2, 2016 ) is astounding.
Brendan McDonough… the only survivor from the entire Granite Mountain Hotshot crew… has now PUBLICLY said be believes that the original Arizona Forestry SAIT investigation was ‘incomplete’… and that it should REPOENED.
That there are still many things that future Wildland Firefighters ‘need to know’ about why the Granite Mountain Hotshots ended up where they were that day.
And it goes beyond even what he may or may not have heard ( himself ) over the radio.
See a longer ‘Reply’ up above at this link…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-334257
azfamily.com 3TV | Phoenix Breaking News, Weather, Sport
http://www.azfamily.com/Clip/12404324/lone-survivor-from-yarnell-hill-fire-tragedy-talks-about-new-book
http://ktar.com/player/?a=321314
http://www.fox10tv.com/story/31868224/yarnell-hill-fire-survivor-its-a-tough-life-to-live
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKl0auJdfvs
strange…well known New York Times editor Fernanda Santos is getting less PR than Donut on internet search-
http://www.abc15.com/news/region-northern-az/prescott/new-york-times-reporter-pens-the-fire-line-as-tribute-to-granite-mountain-hotshots
http://www.cbs5az.com/story/31869823/new-book-offers-intimate-look-into-lives-of-yarnell-19
http://www.azfamily.com/story/31870099/new-book-offers-intimate-look-into-lives-of-yarnell-19
http://www.kyma.com/fire-line-portrays-the-story-of-19-brave-souls/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/2/new-book-about-ariz-wildfire-that-killed-19-firefi/
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/arts/two-new-yarnell-hill-fire-books-make-perfect-companion-pieces-8247978
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/may/03/new-book-hotshots-aims-piece-together-details-trag/
Reply to Gary Olson post on May 2, 2016 at 7:41 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Well…somebody just told me they think that might have been
>> a Type II crew, but I thought I saw at least one of the Three Stooges
>> in the photo?
Gary… I found the photo you were looking for of that ‘crew’ in front of the ‘Yarnell’ sign… and you are right… there is an ‘African American’ FF in the photo.
And yea… this could be a photo of that ‘Globe Type 2’ crew that was known to be working Yarnell the day of the tragedy… and in the days that followed.
Joy actually posted a link to this photo down below in this Chapter…
Here is Joy’s original link from below ( with a link to the ‘Crew’ photo )…
—————————————————————————————-
On April 4, 2016 at 5:32 pm, Joy A. Collura says
funny that these men can pose for a photo but ODD none of them
are in SAIR or ever talk publicly?
hmm…
https://plus.google.com/photos/110724344305143712029/albums/6038372134406111633/6038372137813459330?sqi=112727709127542996420&sqsi=5b593a30-4523-42d7-a892-d9f2e6ab9882&pid=6038372137813459330&oid=110724344305143712029
——————————————————————————————
The photo of this ‘crew’ at the link above was taken in Yarnell on July 4, 2013, at the Ranch House Restaurant and in front of the now famous SIGN that faces Highway 89 and says… “Welcome to Yarnell – Where The Desert Breeze Meets The Mountain Air”
There are 17 FFs (total) seen in this photo.
There is an ‘African American’ FF standing 4th from the left in the back row.
The man to his RIGHT ( 3rd from the left ) *might* also be ‘African American’.
All 17 of the FFs in the photo are wearing BLACK ball-caps with the ‘AZFIRE’ logo on them.
The photo was taken by Google+ user 4490red.
That’s the same ‘4490red’ who posted those original four ‘Globe Type 2 Crew’ videos that he took while working in Yarnell on the day of the tragedy… June 30, 2013.
That ‘Globe’ crew stayed in Yarnell and continued fighting the fire for a few days.
So I don’t know if this is the ‘Globe Type 2 Crew’ that 4490 was working with there in Yarnell ( 4490red calls them ‘his brothers’ in his photo description )… or whether this is one of the DOC prison crews that was working Yarnell.
More later.
I think it is the Globe Type 2 Crew rather than a DOC crew although it is pretty hard to tell. Those guys look pretty shifty to me, maybe we should run them through NCIC anyway to see how many hits we can get? Looks like my big lead is a dead end…bummer. We still have a Cajun on the loose.
It’s the Globe #1 Type 2 prison crew that was C-4 on the resource order and was assigned to the Yarnell Hill fire at 0700 on 6/30/13. GM IHC was C-5 and Blue Ridge was C-3.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABR9l_vNwy4gJmlc-T7x8Fha/Resource%20Orders/J-%20Resource%20Orders.pdf?dl=0
Woodsman
Page 32 of the resource orders: Globe type 2 prison crew C-4
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABR9l_vNwy4gJmlc-T7x8Fha/Resource%20Orders/J-%20Resource%20Orders.pdf?dl=0
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on May 4, 2016 at 7:42 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Page 32 of the resource orders: Globe type 2 prison crew C-4
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABR9l_vNwy4gJmlc-T7x8Fha/Resource%20Orders/J-%20Resource%20Orders.pdf?dl=0
Copy that. Thank you.
So the answer to whether or not this was the ‘Type 2 Globe’ crew or a ‘DOC crew’ is simply… YES.
It was BOTH.
These were NOT the ‘Globe Type 1 Hotshots’.
They were that OTHER ‘Globe DOC Type 2’ crew who were ‘ordered up’ for Yarnell on Saturday night and showed up the next morning, Sunday, June 30, 2013.
ADOSH requested the NAMES of all the DOC crew that had been working in Yarnell for the whole shebang.. soup to nuts… but all Arizona Forestry would ever give ADOSH was the names of the ‘overhead’ for all the DOC crews.
Here is what Arizona Forestry gave ADOSH ( in an email ) regarding the ‘Globe Type 3 DOC crew’ that was there in Yarnell the day of tragedy ( and until July 4, 2013 )…
NOTE: “CO” stands for “Corrections Officer”
—————————————————————–
Globe Type 2 Superintendent: Sgt. Paulson ( Cell Phone: xxxxxxxxxx )
Globe Type 2 Staff…
CO II Soto
CO II Caulfield
CO II Gallion
CO II Rush
—————————————————————–
So at least SOME of these ‘names’ are there in that photo taken on the day this ‘Globe DOC Type 2 Crew’ was ‘demobbing’ from the Yarnell Hill Fire ( on July 4, 2013 ).
Obvious TYPO up above.
The ‘Globe DOC’ crew was a Type 2 crew ( not a Type 3 ).
Paragraph above should have read like this…
————————————————–
Here is what Arizona Forestry gave ADOSH ( in an email ) regarding the ‘Globe Type 2 DOC crew’ that was there in Yarnell the day of tragedy ( and until July 4, 2013 )…
————————————————–
Staff Ride, Beta, Still after several weeks of reflection is hard to get my head around ICMT Group, thier thoughts and ideas of how to manage a fire. How they put this dog and pony show on for the families, I am super proud of Juliann Ascraft, she is composed and fairly spot on, full of questions and willing and waiting for plausable answers.
Also was amazed by the presence of Marcia McKee and her being bailed on by her compainon for the Hike, Fred Scheoffler, what a dick move. She gets over exerted, has to be taken out by two of the cadre, taking them away from us and leaving his sorry ass with us. I also understand that he was given some instruction to keep his distance from Mrs Phingston, and with good reason, probably good I was unaware of this till whole thing was done.
I have learned that some of the Blue Ridge crew have been on the following SRs. One of them indicated that they were assigned to Gary Cordes for Structure Protection. This assignment along with the assignment and acceptance by GMHS to take the anchor continus to reinforce my belief that the full complement of Incident Command Staff and the IA Crew for Yarnell Hill was Derelict in their duties. Did IC think they could “Manage” the Fire and burn out overgrown worthless chaparral?
From the more I hear from WFF, Captians, Engine Bosses, they have a huge MIS-TRUST of overhead. It shows, with the lack of thought, foresight, gameplan, and doing their own job of keeping up with their crews. How did these IC guys get their jobs, no one else raised their hand?
Assigning BR to Structure Protection and sending them out to hang out with the GMHS Buggies to baby sit them is just STUPID. Frisby must not of thought much of his supervisor, as he sat his crew on their ass, while he rode around meet with Div A, looking for a plan of his OWN. The idea of BR using the dozer to improve Sesame Street so they might protect Yarnell, Really?
Meanwhile back at Investigative Media the only plan I keep reading about is the 10 and fucking 18, one thing is for sure nobody seem to follow order #10. had someone used this order on Saturday or Sunday, GMHS might still be here.
Agreed.
Are you going to be there for Donut’s book signing event …just curious…my book has a bunch of ?s in it… And I may pop in… Well David brought up a lot of good stuff yet the RTS part…I think there may be missing details and I will let RTS answer ya there since it’s his area but I think its perception and where ya stand on topic…I cannot imagine why D Pfingston would have concern to RTS,..new to me. I recently had a biker stop me David said his name was Bill and said he knew you and said you are kick ass person. I said to him never met a lot but both hikers forever are sorry for your loss and I will keep my door open to gain clarity and never will walk away from your son…never.
Well Dave seems to know a lot of nothing.
First I have read to important E-Mails of thanks from Mrs. McKee and her very close friend Praising and Thanking RTS. Who was with Dave and two other Families on the Walk which Mrs. McKee asked RTS to Finish and meet her at the Deployment site.
All of the group got along. Then I see Dave found out who RTS is and changed his
attitude after the Hike. Enough Said.
Also Dave would rather Put People in Fire Shelters than continue to train in the 10 and 18. I do not expect him or his Wife to understand them as he was never a Wild Land Fire Fighter. The end result of Granit Mountain was the total lack of following the 10 and using the 18 to establish their safety. Yes the Team its self seemed to have also lost their safety consideration of the management of the Fire They failed to follow some of the Basics.
Since Dave and His wife used my name in his blog to call the 10 and 18 out of date
I would like to reply that they are as current and exact safety rules today as they were in 1957 when they were established. The 10 and 18 fit the current extreme fire conditions of today if they are relied upon and used.
FIRE WEATHER– COMMUNICATIONS– LOOK OUTS– ESCAPE ROUTS– SAFETY ZONES –FIRE BEHAVIOR– INSTRUCTIONS– SUPERVISION– CONTROL OF FORCES– PROVIDE FOR SAFETY.
Those are the basic orders the simple facts of how to do a fire suppression job safely.
NO ONE IN 60 years has come up with any thing to make it better the ORDERS are still the best direction to keep FIRE FIGHTERS SAFE.
The most important thing is to never get in a situation to have to rely on a fire shelter.
No one is discussing the fact that in 2000 degrees how long will your Oxygen last under that Shelter? Maybe you can build a Shelter that will withstand 2000 Degrees but what will happen to the oxygen?
The Safety Rules/ORDERS have kept 95% of Wild Land Fire Fighters safe and they have never Deployed. I would say that is a Very High statistic.
those who have died thru Burn Overs did so because they did not follow the rules.
That is still fact. Environmental accidents can as well be avoided, Rocks and trees Every accident has a Identified Action and a Out come. You can mediate exposures with proper safety actions. Thus the 10 and 18. Taking any risk is violating the Safety rules no matter how small.
No Fire Fighter should ever consider a risk to be justifiable for any reason.
How many times do I have to tell you to shut the fuck up poser. You sound like a broken record, management and Fred didn’t do anything wrong, follow the 19 and the 18 and they will set you free. You are an even bigger dickhead than Fred and he is one of the biggest dickheads I have ever known. Still skulking around in the background, how many times are you going to tell me goodbye and then keep coming back for another beating.
You gave up all of credibility here on this thread Bob…you did that because you BLEED GREEN. OK…you proved it, you bleed green, we need people who BLEED RED like the crew. Fuck off two season hotshot.
I was hoping neither you nor Fred ever came back here, Fred has been singing the same song just like you for three years now.
Mis-stroke on the keyboard, the 10 and the 18, but all of you probably knew that.
Gary you are proving two things you are the Dick Head.
You do not have enough time and certification to even tell me
What you think about wild land fire.
I do not poser any thing and My credentials stack way above yours in wild land fire.
Hot Shots were a step in my ladder to success. I stayed in fire because for one thing I was not allergic to smoke like some pansy ass we Know.
If all you have is coming on here calling me names and saying shut the fuck up you have truly lost the argument.
You think IM has turned into your fucking little sand box enjoy it you have turned it into Idiotville with a Alcoholic druggy who is off his Meds. Bullies are a dime a dozen and you not worth TWO CENTS.
Maybe John should kick your ass off of here you are becoming a determent to this discussion.
Yes since there is nothing going on here any way this time it is ADIOS MOTHER FUCKER
With No civility here mainly on Gary’s part.
Without RTS or my self providing added information this site is about to crash.
I have no reason to get on here to be called every name in the book for no reason. With that the few of you still searching Good luck. Gary is driving the rest OLD and NEW away do to his attacks and ranting’s.
why Gary, why?
Don’t you feel they have done a lot here?
I know they helped educate the hikers.
Joy,
You are a real gem so I am going to explain this to you.
1. I have gone back through most of the posts and ALL RTS has ever said is that it was Marsh and Steed’s fault ONLY and they should have followed the 10 and the 18, we that get that, we really do. We don’t need to hear it anymore.
2. I have gone back through most of the posts and ALL Bob has ever said is that it was Marsh and Steed’s fault ONLY and they should have followed the 10 and the 18, we get that, we really do. We don’t need to hear it anymore.
After reading this thread in it’s entirety, I now fully comprehend the only thing RTS and now Fred has ever done is to throw out shiny objects and smoke grenades to hide the truth that the fire team and his buddies were far more responsible for the deaths of the crew than a lot of people understand.
Fred is protecting his tribe, that bastard collection of Battalion Chiefs, structural firefighters, hybrids and WF turncoats he belongs to. He will only spread more disinformation, he is a combination of Lucifer In The Flesh and Judas Iscariot. Fred is really smart and that makes him very dangerous as a traitor to his kind.
Bob has repeatedly said over and over again that he “bleeds green”, Joy…that means he is a company man and company men NEVER find fault with bosses, that is what the definition of a company man is.
I didn’t call him that…HE called himself that. I worked for the USFS for 14 years. I used to say I bled green. That means you support the agency line and policies no matter what.
We don’t need anybody here that supports the agencies no matter what. We need people here that support the truth.
Bob also said his friends are the most important thing in the world to him, not the job at hand, not the truth and not saving wildland firefighters in the future…his friends. I didn’t say that about him,he said that about himself.
On the other hand, Bob is not dangerous as RTS’s bitch, he is just annoying because he is so stupid.
I think Bob’s vagina always hurt too much to be a real wildland firefighter. He must have gotten ash in it the first time he went on the line so he never wanted to go back and risk it again.
That is why he only lasted two years as a hotshot and went for as many do nothing overhead jobs as he could pencil whip himself into because he didn’t like to work.
He said he was burned out by the time he was 50 and had to retire, I didn’t say that…he said that.
Gary said” We don’t need anybody here that supports the agencies no matter what. We need people here that support the truth. ”
MY REPLY- I believe so strongly in freedom of speech and allowing people to be their own assessor on what is what…where is Otis…chime in UK- ok.
Recently I asked JD to remove comments I made on Holly and I at first was like how come they are still there but in it I was very educated to what Dr. Ted Putnam taught me and BE MINDFUL and at times I am not…so it was what it was…as JD named it…and life goes on…You said what you feel & COOL and I still think RTS and Bob and others should too…the only part I did not like about EN on my emails and phone talks was the improper time she would engage in like a lawyer debate mannerism on topics so far out my thought process and YES she named RTS way long ago…but in it “who cares”…I am glad the truth made its way out there and I hope more comes out from the YHF too…that’s all…EVERYONE MATTERS!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fkg_DDO2zI
oh and if I have not said it and I should always say it thank you to Marti Reed and WWTKTT for always staying on top of resources and sources and any photos I have given or others; thank you.
at 3:40/7:42 what time was that photo taken- that is Sesame Street fence and the Shrine in the background where smoke plume is
at marker 5:03/7:42—that Glendale truck I watched 6-30-13; where is that testimony in SAIR? You thought I forgot you Glendale- hell no—you are one of the missing elements.
5:42 mark of video
That is Fred Brown’s blue house in photo sporting Arizona flag proudly…why doesn’t ARIZONA do right by Fred who’s home burnt down at his elderly age who now lives in a lil rv behind McDonalds in Wickenburg because of bs tie ups…Yeah, you all did not help everyone in the aftermath…
what time was 6:24 photo taken?
I am confused that they have the rumored alleged back burn in place which was clocked to have happened between 3:13pm-3:38pm and the wind made it go squirrely/wirey? SO let desert walker me know how it went from 3:40/7:42 OVER BY THE SHRINE AREA with plume and the timing of that 3:40 pic is? and to then this 6:24 mark pic and what time this is…to now Manzanita IS ON fire…hmmm….explain that fire behavior to me…and when did Glendale truck and rigs leave that area?
maybe not a mis-stroke Gary
19 men died—maybe it’s like this REMEMBER the 19 …how one man who is still ALIVE changed the lives of 19 men due to miscommunication and chaos and confusion happen…that man who is ALIVE if he can realize while he was in an air conditioned room that day in his authoritarian role not exactly realizing his bark of words would be a contributing factor in 19 dying; these 19 men tired as all hell travelled up that Weavers in that heat and geared up like they were and the world can buy Donut’s apple media bs this week but WAY TOO SMALL of town that the people who know Donut know he is a drinking/woman man and quite simple but not this apple pie image…but I am glad he says there is MORE THAN what the SAIR put out…now for Donut to have triggers—that is natural but enough on saying the community helped him heal so strongly when I know the dark days of him…he better really look around him and know who leaks his life to others and who are his pals and yes Donut that includes your “brotherhood” ex GMHS pals….and ther firefighters. I am disappointed to this date without reading book but its about to arrive how Donut perceives honoring the 19…why please answer me why so many write books when they should hang there heads down in SHAME and realize what really happened 6-30-13…I feel like the human factors have not been really talked about much…but we can sit on this side line and judge Bob Powers and RTS and why not just RESPECT them for the men God made them to be— I like everyone’s views and perceptions here and I welcome them and I hope RTS and everyone remains here versus breaking the souls of the bloggers to cease; standing firm no matter if I am bashed I will keep looking for clarity and keep being ME here and if someone don’t like it than pass my comments or rip on me—I really don’t mind; really. TEE IT UP and get it out…we have to get the anger and frustrations up and out- it may mean you mean what you say but not always…sometimes it is what we mean for that moment….to tee it up and out…I love everyone here for their continued coming back here 🙂
If you and Fred are representatives examples of Oak Grove crew it’s no wonder they were disbanded. You were probably afraid to get out the crew carrier.
Bob’s Ten Rules For Fighting Fire Safely
“Never leave the crew carrier, never leave the crew carrier, never leave the crew carrier,never leave the crew carrier, never leave the crew carrier,never leave the crew carrier,never leave the crew carrier, never leave the crew carrier, never leave the crew carrier, never leave the crew carrier.
Signed; Bob Bleed Green Powers
Why don’t you take up fishin’ in the Snake for a hobby Bob? Do you need me to buy you a pole? What kind do you want?
It’s OK for you to move on Bob. You’re work here is done and has been for almost three years. We get it. The 10 and the 18 are important. If the crew would have followed them they would still be alive. We understand, you have already told us that thousands of times. We are not as slow as you are Bob and apparently as slow as the rest of the Oak Grove crew was if they needed you to be the Number Two Go-To-Guy.
“Hey Bob…what do you think we should do?
“I think we should follow the 10 and the 18!”
“OK Bob…thanks”
We get it. Please move on. Really…what kind of pole do you want?
Oh…and one more thing. As far as Mrs. McKee goes. She is a very nice person who has manners. She was just being gracious and kind while she showed class in how she spoke of and thanked Fred The DicKhead Scheoffler.
You know, it’s kind of like when you go to a party, well…it’s like when somebody who would actually be invited to a party goes to one…and it really sucks. You wouldn’t write them a thank you note and say, “Your party sucked and you are a Dickhead.” Well…you probably would, so disregard that.
Most people would write, “Thank you for inviting me to your wonderful party, I had a great time.” It’s called be polite Bob. Don’t take it to the bank and try to cash it because it will just bounce.
Bob said: The most important thing is to never get in a situation to have to rely on a fire shelter.
No one is discussing the fact that in 2000 degrees how long will your Oxygen last under that Shelter? Maybe you can build a Shelter that will withstand 2000 Degrees but what will happen to the oxygen?
MY REPLY: Zack Ashoor if he were still alive today would of been trying to get those answers and that was his project at hand- “oxygen”
Yes joy and the point is to carry a tank of oxygen will add even more weight than the shelter weight. They are already at max weight.
My message is to put your self in the training safety you are taught.
Zack Ashoor was saying they were working on emergency light weight portable ones.
Joy two things to consider Time up to a Half Hour under the shelter.
The big one is what dose Oxygen do in extreme heat and flame?
It explodes. The special tanks that Structure FF Carrie are heavy with full face masks No matter what the size it will add extra weight with a thin wall that could cause problems.
Bob said:
“Well Dave seems to know a lot of nothing.”
Have you no common decency? Is your mind so completely focused on defending someone you barely knew (but was briefly on the same crew as you) so strong that you would hurl insults to the father of a dead hotshot in defense of him? I’ve tried to respect what you have to say purely in honor of your experience in fire and the personal loss you have had as well but I have to tell you: you disgust me.
I have a hard time wrapping my head around your motive to defend RTS and every member of overhead on the Yarnell Hill fire no matter what. Why? You are wrong on so many points it’s astounding. You, Fred, many of the overhead on the Yarnell Hill fire, overhead on other fires, and hybrid firefighters across the country share blame for numerous injuries & fatalities nationwide over a number of years & you don’t seem to want to face the possibility of this truth.
You and Fred are defenders of the system. That is clear to me. You are both obstacles to the truth.
Woodsman
My book writing today was interrupted when this random thought popped into my head and I want to share it with you because you are….you know the rest.
I have thought about it some more and I am not ready to give up on my lead that the black guy in the photo of the Type II crew may be the Cajun.
What may have happened, is that they took the miscellaneous overhead from the local area and put them all together with some reinforcements from the Prescott and maybe the Kaibab and formed a Type II crew to work the fire rather than go home once the Type I Team came in and took over the fire. And that is why I saw the 3 Prescottiers in the photo.
There ARE African Americans up around Williams (and Flagstaff) because Southwest Forest Industries brought an entire black community about a hundred years ago and deposited them in Williams, Flagstaff and McNary up on the White Mountain Apace Reservation when they completely relocated all of their logging and mill business from…Louisiana.
And there where always a couple of black guys who are descendants of those families (I think) working on the Kaibab, which is headquartered out of Williams and is very near Prescott and the two forests adjoin each other. There even could be a black guy working on the Prescott in this day and age that transferred from the Kaibab or came over from Williams in the first place or maybe even Region 8 although if I were a black guy, I wouldn’t be brave enough to move to Prescott, Ariziona…Everybody’s Home Town, just sayin’…
I went to the Prescott high school which had more than 1200 students and there was 1 black guy and no black girls. You almost never even see black people visiting Prescott…big surprise.
So…I am going to keep looking for the photo to see if we can ID the guy. Or once again, somebody could just help us out by naming the black gentleman who was working on the Type II crew who posed in front of the “Where the desert breeze meets the mountain air – Yarnell” sign so I can ask him if he has a Cajun accent and was working on the Yarnell Hill Fire as miscellaneous and knows who Eric Marsh wanted to make happy so bad on June 30, 2013.
Is this racial profiling? I sure hope not.
And…as long as I am here I might as well clean up and fill out a comment I made yesterday.
I said, as I have said multiple times in the last three years that the crew should have run rather than lay down on the ground to be burned alive. I have always gotten push back from people who say they didn’t have anywhere to run to, they couldn’t go back uphill, it was to steep and the hot gasses were going that way. And they couldn’t run north, it was uphill and the fire was coming from that direction and they couldn’t go east because the fire was sweeping around the round top and being sucked up the canyon.
Yes…to all of that. But then I always come back with, you just don’t get it. If where you are thinking about deploying is NOT survivable and it is NOT a close call…then you must run and at least die on your feet fighting.
Although Sonny has always said he thinks the boulder field to the south would have been a better place to go but maybe all of them would not have survived. And I will go with Sonny’s call on this one because he proved himself that day to have common sense and survival skills. And then I come back with…yes, but some of them WOULD have survived and wouldn’t we take that deal?
And then there are the complete idiots like Bill Gabbert who say, “We know more or less what happened that day and additional details won’t add really anything so what difference does it make.” Bill Gabbert spent most of his career managing fire (allegedly…in the Dakotas, not exactly a hot zone for wildfires) for the National Park Service…if that tells you anything, and it tells most of you a everything you need to know about Bill Gabbert.
And to that I say, “Well…it is not about changing what happened LAST time…it is about preventing it from happening NEXT time.” I think that is worthwhile even if Bill Gabbert and a few other don’t.
That is the back story and here is my clean up and fill out to my comment yesterday. I said that they should have run anywhere, rather than laying down to die in a place that is clearly not survivable by a long shot. Remember it was 20×30 feet and they needed about 16.5 acres to keep from being seriously burned and maybe killed, That is bigger even than a tennis court.
And I also said that if there was no where else to run…I would try running through the flames and I think that tactic should be taught in wildland firefighter training. That is a take off on what WTKTT suggested months ago and I have been thinking about it ever since. I don’t think that is a bad idea if you are going to die by laying down and there is literally no where else to run (if the boulder field had not been there to the south).
I said something about it was a brush fire and not a timber fire with heavy fuels that are going to burn for hours or even days. I would rather try that desperate tactic in a grass fire on in the desert brush like there is in the Sonoran Desert but…? Those kind of fires burn fast and hot but not long.
WTKTT even suggested widland firefighters use their fire shelters as a shield in front of them as they run forward…and I think that is a great idea that was never taught to me, and I never even considered. I do think I have heard of people doing that with blankets etc. in a house fire…so why not?
So…here is my food for thought that may add something to the discussion that I hope follows. I can tell you one thing for sure, you are going to read about this concept in my much anticipated and highly acclaimed book I now MAY finish, “The Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters.”
On the Battlement Creek Fire, which I also mentioned yesterday, two of the firefighters did exactly what we are talking about. They did die, but at least they died on their feet fighting. There were four trapped without fire shelters because we didn’t carry fire shelters then even thought the Chief of the USFS had ordered that hotshot crews carry them a decade earlier.
And once the fire, which was burning in nearly identical fuels but worse, actually much worse, in similar weather that included temperatures, RH and wind from a thunder cell and it was in early July. The slope was much, much steeper however, so that made everything worse for those four. Once they were literally on fire, one crewman yelled, “I’M ON FIRE and ran down slope directly into the flames, the crew boss yelled something the other two could not understand and he ran down into the flames as well.
A squad boss and another crewman stayed there and let themselves be burned over and of course they were badly burned and the crewman died after they (responding medevac which included Sector Boss Ted Putnam) said on the radio they were cutting his airway open with a pocket knife because his throat was so badly burned he couldn’t breathe and then he died while they were doing chest compressions.
The squad boss actually lived with very serious third degree burns over most of his body. Now, here is some food for thought. The one who lived was laying a few inches lower than the one who died. The GMIHC deployed on a small rise or bench in the canyon…don’t do that, get as low as you can. You can see the rise the GMIHC deployed on in the photos and Willis said they picked that rise to deploy on because it was the best place but then again…Willis picked a tennis court as a safety zone for quite a few firefighters under his “command.”
Now, here it the real punch line…in fuels that were worse, heavier and drier, on a slope that was much, much steeper, the crew boss was able to run 1100 yards before he died. The crewman did not make it quite that far but he almost did. And they ran directly into the flames. So…
I contacted my contact-
let you know when I know; k.
Ah..so you know people who know…people. Very cool. I wish I had some people. I would call them up and chit chat with them. On second thought, I did enough chit chatting to last me a life time when that was my job. Hey now…I can be personable if it helps me get the job done. I have done that lots of times with lots of people I did not respect or like.
no silly- I told you down below Andrew Williams who helped do Sonny’s defensible space did show photos of an African American on the YHF and maybe he knows- maybe there was more than one because he had one on his prison crew; Lewis-
Well…if I did have people, I would have my people contact you people and perhaps we could do lunch?
lunch…nah…how about some 50bmg or old WWII shooting fun 🙂
or we can do a civil war re-enactment— I am the South looking for Cajuns 🙂
And for all of the naysayers out there like Bill Gabbert, I want to know that information NOT for the purpose of “outing” the guy.
Once I know who is, I simply want to ask him if there was a Hail Mary Plan and if so, what was it and how was it pitched to Eric Marsh that caused him to do something as reckless as he did.
That will not exonerate either Marsh or Steed, but it will help me UNDERSTAND why they did what they did. And I want to understand all of the contributing factors that led up to the greatest blunder in the history of wildland firefighting.
My book will not be complete without it and at this point…it is all about my book because that is where I am going to explain to future generations of widland firefighters why this happened in the hope that it helps to make sure it never happens again.
I think of the book I may finish writing now as the biggest case report I will ever assemble in my life pertaining to the biggest and most important investigation of my life.
Maybe that is why the Great Creator has not yet called me home and what the Creator has been preparing me for my whole life? I might be an instrument in God’s hands and this is my path to redemption to atone for all of my past sins and maybe a few future ones. Spooky thoughts…huh?
So help me go home with my head held high to drink (even though I don;t drink, maybe I will start) with my people in the great hall of Valhalla. Maybe I can get that whole Killed In Battle Special Exemption & Waiver I have mentioned before. Wait…is that mixing Christianity with Norse Paganism? Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn (Gone With the Wind).
Gary’s book is one book I will read and put on my non fiction shelf. I was also happy to see David Turbyfill posting–he give us an honest assessment of people and things he observed on his staff ride. The FS and comrades are still dodging the truth and after all we see in the media I am beginning to believe they have convinced themselves of their own bullshit.
I wondered if one of the stooges that WTKTT in the photo was Donut. He certainly does not qualify to represent the 19–though I thing he might do for the bosses of the 17. They were approximately as knowledgeable as he was about common sense as well as the safety rules that Donut proved they knew little about.
I think the firefighting profession wastes its breath using him as a sounding board for their actions. Maybe he is their only hope to cover their own actions. After all if you keep him in the lime light then their insufficient actions at fire fighting tactics and safety conformance led to the deaths of the 17 and that is no error in number. Steed and Marsh are culpable along with the whole mess of bosses and three local fire departments. Had they also followed the safety rules instead of orders from headquarters, they and their men would be alive today. So also had the local fire departments taken quick action in a known emergency situation that fire would never have gotten out of hand:;therefore, the hybrid GMHS crew would also be alive. So spread the blame, it does not only belong to Steed and Marsh, though they shoulder the bulk of this tragedy.
I wondered how Gary came up with 16.2 acres as a propler safety zone. That sounds about right with the intense heat that manzanita gave off that day. Exfoliatijng boulders and cactus exploding and a burn of of thick brush that left nothing but moon scape where littered cans of aluminum menlted gave proof of the intensity of the fire.
I would estimate about 5 acres of boulders near where they were. Too bad wild land fire fighters are excluded from going into the boulderfield since they could see what places they could have gotten to save their lives. I have been in that particular boulderfield and do know they had places that many men could have gotten under huge boulders in cave like areas that would have shielded them from the fire. Gary mentioned the guy that survived in the Battlement fire?, was only inches lower than the partner that died and that likely saved him. In the boulders they would have been several feet lower than the surface–5-6 ft. in some places. Joy to this day complains that she had to see a chiropractor because of our descent though boulders on the West side of the Weavers. I did not but the physical make up of those men was better than mine due to my age–so definitely they could and would have survived had they only that little knowledge.
This is one of the reasons it iirks me that that area is restricted. Look at the lessons to be learned by new wild land fire fighters by visiting that spot and observing the many errors committed by those 19 GMHS that ultimately killed them. Just to know you can have bosses that are real fuck ups that can and will get you killed is important. The idea that knowing the rules and common sense application when the shit hits the fan would be instilled into them in an emotional way by being on the site and actually seeing and feeling the intensity of their last moments caused by those errors. This pays respect to those men so their deaths are not in vain. It is exactly what they would want so that the new man can know what will keep him/her alive.
some misspelling there–did not notice until I re read–I used to win spelling bees ==so correct me –but I do know better than dropping off in a basin that would likely kill me and my hiking partner.
**
** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH TOLD AUTHOR KYLE DICKMAN HE HEARD
** ERIC MARSH ORDER JESSE STEED TO “LEAVE THE SAFE BLACK”
** BEFORE HE EVER TOLD DARRELL WILLIS
Well… it’s going to be a CRAZY week with ( starting tomorrow ) the general release of the Fernanda Santos Yarnell book… and then immediately followed by the general release of Brendan McDonough’s own Yarnell book.
I was ( obviously ) not someone who had access to any kind of pre-release copy of either book ( like Bill Gabbert did over at Wildfire Today )… so I have NOT had a chance to actually read either one.
All I have had access to is what is being reveleaed in the ‘pre-release’ reviews that have been hitting the airwaves this week… and whatever ‘content’ has been revealed that way.
So it’s hard to say how MUCH of a ‘hit’ the TRUTH is going to take this week, as the full text of these books is revealed… but from what I’ve read so far… it’s not going to be pretty.
Example: I think Bill Gabbert CAN be trusted when he says the following three statements from Brendan McDonough actually ARE in his book…
Wildfire Today ( Bill Gabbert )
Article Title: Lone survivor from Yarnell Hill Fire publishes book
Published: April 25, 2016
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/04/25/lone-survivor-from-yarnell-hill-fire-publishes-book/
From Bill Gabbert’s article…
————————————————————————————-
Mr. McDonough wrote in the book:
“I had no idea they had moved out of the black. Neither did anyone else.
The focus was on saving Yarnell and not getting burned up ourselves.”
————————————————————————————-
Compare THAT with what Brendan himself said in his previous interview with Bill Gabbert back in August of 2015… which is here…
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/08/31/the-yarnell-hill-fire-lone-survivor-interview-with-brendan-mcdonough/
In THAT interview… Bill Gabbert reported…
————————————————————————————–
Brendan said that he didn’t hear a radio conversation between the two about WHY the crew left the black. He DID hear, though, a discussion about Marsh going on ahead toward the ranch to make sure the route was good, and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.”
————————————————————————————–
So just on this one point… Brendan has now (apparently) ‘changed’ his ‘story’ from…
“He DID hear, though, a discussion about Marsh going on ahead toward the ranch…”
“…and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.”
To ( in his own ‘new’ book )…
“I had no idea they had moved out of the black. Neither did anyone else.”
Other than the obvious fact that this totally contradicts what Brendan apparently told Mr. Gabbert back in August of 2015 ( and he is now making Mr. Gabbert look like a fool )… this ‘new’ statement from Brendan basically now says that two different prominent Prescott citizens, Prescott City Attorney ( Jon Paladini ) AND the former Prescott Wildland Division Chief ( Darell Willis ) are both LIARS with regards to what went down over Brendan’s effort to ‘get something off his chest’… which resulted in the Jon Paladini article published on April 3, 2015.
But what is even MORE important to NOTE here is that even with all the hullabaloo over who was or wasn’t relaying the right information between McDonough, Willis and Paladini…
…the FACT is that this ‘story’ that was told by Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini was basically also CONFIRMED by former Hotshot and author Kyle Dickman.
When Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge” was published just about 1 month after that Jon Paladini article had appeared reporting that Brendan heard Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ‘arguing’ and then Marsh just basically ORDERED Steed to leave the safe black and bring the men down to the Boulder Springs Ranch… Kyle Dickman’s book told basically the SAME STORY… and SPECIFICALLY said that the source of that information WAS, in fact, Brendan McDonough.
So Brendan McDonough is now not only calling Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini and former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis LIARS… Brendan McDonough is now also calling former Hotshot and author Kyle Dickman a LIAR, as well.
And before someone says… “Well… since the Dickman book came out 1 month after the Paladini account appeared in the press… maybe Dickman just added that ‘story’ to his book based on what Paladini reported on April 3″…
…my pre-response is… NOT POSSIBLE.
While it IS true that Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini’s ‘account’ of what McDonough told Willis came out in a public article on April 3, 2015… and Kyle Dickman’s book was not available for general sale until about 1 month later, on March 5, 2015… it is also a FACT that Dickman’s book had ALREADY ‘gone to print’ even BEFORE the Paladini account ever appeared in any public article.
There are PHOTOS posted on Kyle Dickman’s own PUBLIC ‘Twitter’ feed of his ‘new book’ having already been ‘printed’ and available as pre-release copies as early as March 13, 2015… almost a full month BEFORE the Paladini ‘account’ ever appeared in public.
And if there were already ‘printed’ copies of the book appearing circa March 13, 2015, then you can bet the actual ‘manuscript’ had to have been fully completed LONG before that date.
So it is NOT POSSIBLE that Kyle Dickman could have just ‘added’ almost the ‘identical’ account to his book as related by Paladini just because of the appearance of Paladini’s account.
In his ‘credits’… Kyle Dickman SPECIFICALLY says that HIS account of Brendan hearing Marsh and Steed ‘discussing their options’… and then Marsh termintating the discussion with an ORDER… came DIRECTLY from McDonough himself while Dickman had full access to him and was actually WRITING that chapter back in late 2014.
And then there is this in Dickman’s ‘Chapter sources’ section, proving that everything Dickman wrote about Marsh and Steed ‘discussing their options’ to leave the black had, in fact, come straight from McDonough…
Here is exactly what Kyle Dickman said in his ‘sources’ section regarding his own published account…
——————————————————————————-
McDonough provided the details of Marsh and Steed’s radio conversation
about whether to leave the safety of the black.
——————————————————————————-
And ( for the sake of completeness, and in case some have never seen it ) here is exactly what Kyle Dickman published in his book…
** From page 220 of Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
This part of Dickman’s narrative ‘picks up’ at the moment ( 3:47 PM ) when Blue Ridge Hotshots Superintendent Brian Frisby has just dropped Brendan off at the spot where the GM Superintendent and Chase trucks has been parked that morning. Frisby now ‘takes off’ to the south in the BR Polaris Ranger UTV to ‘pick up’ BR Captain Trueheart Brown and bring him BACK to that point to help Brendan drive the 2 GM vehicles away from that location.
Kyle Dickman wrote…
———————————————————————————————
As Frisby sped off toward Blue Ridge, Donut, out of danger for the time being, threw his Pulaski and gear in the back of Marsh’s superintendent truck. He climbed into the cab, turned on the A/C, and switched the radio to Granite Mountain’s crew net.
On the radio, Donut could hear Marsh and Steed discussing whether the crew should stay in the black or come up with a plan to move.
Marsh said he was scouting the escape route: the two track that ran along the top of the ridge to Glen Ilah and the Helms’ place.
Staying put in the black was obviously the safest option, but it also meant agreeing to be spectators to the macabre show unfolding beneath them. The alternative was for Granite Mountain to follow the ridge out to their escape route and to the safety zone at the Helms’ place.
It was an appealing option. The Helms’ place would put the hotshots in a better position from which to reengage the fire. With all its defensible space, the ranch was not under threat, and if they could wait out the firestorm there, the crew would be a short walk away from Glen Ilah, where they could help homeowners whose lives were soon to go up in flames. Moving Granite Mountain was also the type of tactical decision that might surprise and impress Abel and the incident commanders. Granite Mountain had been sidelined on the fire’s cold heel all day. But when the flames swept through Yarnell, Abel and Cordes would immediately need all the help they could find. For Granite Mountain to emerge unexpectedly into the action, just minutes after the fire had torn through Yarnell, would be a slick move– a coup that could win an ambitious division accolades with the incident management team or a recently absent superintendent the admiration of his unfamiliar crew.
But moving Granite Mountain to the Helms’ place came with substantial risks.
It compromised many of the Ten and Eighteen that both Marsh and Steed had memorized:
Weather is getting hotter and drier.
Wind increases and/or changes direction.
Terrain and fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
Uburned fuel between you and the fire.
The safety zone was more than a mile and a half away from the crew, and as soon as the hotshots left the safety of the black, a sea of dry chaparral would lie between the men and the fire.
Steed and Marsh considered the rules but found ways to justify ignoring the Ten and Eighteen.
From the escape route along the ridge, the hotshots had an expansive view of the fire’s spread. If the fire got too close, they could always bail off the south, southwest, or west side of the Weavers into the thinner fuels in the desert below.
Ultimately the choice was Marsh’s, and the ORDERS Donut heard him deliver were clear: “Move the crew along the escape route”.
If Steed or anybody else questioned his decision, they did so discreetly, because on the crew’s radio channel, nobody openly disagreed with Marsh.
—————————————————————————————————
Once again… here is EXACTLY what Kyle Dickman published…
“…the ORDERS Donut HEARD him ( Eric Marsh ) deliver were CLEAR”.
And ( once again ) here is EXACTLY what Kyle Dickman says the SOURCE of this statement was in his own ‘credits’ section at the back of his book…
——————————————————————————-
McDonough provided the details of Marsh and Steed’s radio conversation
about whether to leave the safety of the black.
——————————————————————————-
There is no room for doubt, there, that author Kyle Dickman was faithfully reporting exactly what Brendan McDonough TOLD him he actually HEARD during one of their ( many ) long interviews.
There is NO WAY that Kyle Dickman would have ‘made that up’, and would have been specifically saying that ‘Donut HEARD the ORDERS’… unless that is what Brendan told him.
So this ‘account’ coming from Kyle Dickman ( as per testimony to HIM direct from Brendan McDonough ) has ALWAYS ‘matched’ exactly what Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini reported he had heard from McDonough ( via Willis ) on April 3, 2013.
It is actually very likely that the REASON Brendan McDonough originally decided to go to Darrell Willis to trying and ( quoting Willis ) “get something off his chest” was because it was AFTER he had already imparted the same information to author Kyle Dickman… and Brendan now KNEW that information WAS going to be ‘published’ exactly the way he told it to Kyle Dickman.
So if Brendan is really NOW saying ( in his ‘new’ book )…
“I had no idea they had moved out of the black. Neither did anyone else.”
…then he is calling a LOT of ‘prominent’ citizens who value their OWN integrity and reputations LIARS… and he’s going to have to answer for that.
Correction for above. I typed ‘March’ in a place I should have typed ‘May’.
The ‘Paladini’ account was first published on April 3, 2015.
Kyle Dickman’s book became available for general purchase on May 5, 2015 ( not March ).
But pre-release printed copies of Dickman’s book were circulating on March 13, 2015.
So the paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
———————————————————————-
While it IS true that Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini’s ‘account’ of what McDonough told Willis came out in a public article on April 3, 2015… and Kyle Dickman’s book was not available for general sale until about 1 month later, on May 5, 2015… it is also a FACT that Dickman’s book had ALREADY ‘gone to print’ even BEFORE the Paladini account ever appeared in any public article. Pre-release copies were available circa March 13, 2015, a full month BEFORE the Paladini ‘account’ was first published.
———————————————————————-
Followup…
** PROOF THAT KYLE DICKMAN’S BOOK WAS ALREADY PRINTED AS
** EARLY AS MARCH 13, 2015, BEFORE THE PALADINI ACCOUNT APPEARED
On March 13, 2015… a photo a fully printed ‘pre-release copy’ of his soon-to-be-released
book “On the Burning Edge” was posted on Kyle Dickman’s PUBLIC ‘Twitter’ feed.
That means the book was already fully finalized and pre-release copies were already
being printed as early as March 13, 2015… BEFORE the story about what Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini would say ( on April 3, 2015 ) about what Brendan had told Darrell Willis.
The photo of a ‘finished’ pre-release copy of the book was ‘retweeted’ by Kyle Dickman onto his own ‘Twitter’ feed after it had been posted to ‘Twitter’ by Stayton Bonner ( Senior Editor for Rolling Stone Magazine ) who had, apparently, just received this ‘pre-release’ copy of the book from Publicity Manager Greg Kubie at Penguin, Random House… the publishers for Dickman’s soon-to-be-released book.
In that actual photo of a ‘finished copy’ of the book… a label on the book’s cover says…
GREG KUBIE, Publicity Manager
GregKubie (at) PenguinRandomHouse.com or 212.782.9038
Here is a direct link to that photo of the ‘finished’ book which appeared on Kyle Dickman’s PUBLIC Twitter feed on March 13, 2015…
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAAI9AtW4AEyOgj.jpg:large
That means there is NO WAY that Kyle Dickman could have possibly reacted to the ‘Jon Paladini’ story and gone back and ‘inserted’ any of that information in his book.
The fact that Dickman was essentially reporting the SAME ‘story’ ( as told to HIM by Brendan ) in his ‘book’ means that Dickman received that ‘same information’ from Brendan LONG before the Jon Paladini account first appeared in the press.
Here is a link to Kyle Dickman’s actual PUBLIC ‘Twitter’ feed, where the photo above appeared on March 13, 2015.
https://twitter.com/kyledickman
I do want to make one more point before I go back on sabbatical, which is where I belong, to write some more on my book. My tell-all book isn’t going to write itself. I know I don’t belong in normal society, that’s why I am mostly a recluse (which I have readily admitted) although I did force myself to join the search and rescue unit up here to see if I can help some dumb ass with all of the toys I don’t own (I am anti-materialistic).
There is no question in my mind that Eric Marsh was indeed a bright star who had tremendous abilities and even more potential. He started that wildland fire fighting academy in his LIVING ROOM. And this year alone, I think I read it trained 800 or 900 hundred students. Do I have that number right? In any case, I paid to have my own son attend that academy. I hope everyone understands what an accomplishment that is.
That feat alone is more than I have done with my life, and I have had years with nothing else to do since I retired. That fire academy is a BIG DEAL…nationally. I can’t explain how somebody with that kind of natural ability could end up like he did. That is just one more reason this terrible situation is so hard to understand and come to terms with.
And Bob is right about one thing for sure (and probably several others) and I have admitted this before on this blog. He is much smarter than me; his house is paid for and I rent mine. Being a tumbleweed came at a high price and it wasn’t worth it…FYI. Starting over on a mortgage every few years never gets you anywhere. If you are in a good place for your family and you like your job…stay there by all means. The promotions aren’t worth it in the long run, especially with the bullshit that comes with them.
Question Gary before you go on sabbatical… This LIVING ROOM start that now has so many…I wish the ex of Eric could talk more on topic how long D. Steinbrink the retired woodland fire chief was a part in Eric’s life and was he a neighbor to him when this living room start began and how much was the leadership of this man or was their something bigger puppeteering in that beginning…I would buy the book if an honest book came out on the birth of the gmhs and it’s completed journey. Gary…have a great time. Donut was on ABC 15 today. He said some may not like his movie and book but it’s all part of the grief and healing…you want to see the video anyone than email me and I will forward it.
I don’t know any of those things. I thought Marsh started it by himself in his living room and it grew to where it is at today. Which like I said, is pretty impressive no matter how you look at it.
And yes, I got the email with the clips of Mr. McDonough talking the talk. Like I said the other day, he is pretty impressive too, he has really taken his gig and run with it. I have to give credit where credit is due.
Mr. McDonough really looked sharp with his homeless man beard shaved off his baby face and his new sport coat and tie….didn’t he? I kept waiting for that TV reporter to ask him, “That’s too bad that you almost ate your gun and stuff… but tells us… have you actually MET Josh Brolin yet?”
Reply to Gary Olson post on May 2, 2016 at 11:24 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Mr. McDonough really looked sharp with his homeless man
>> beard shaved off his baby face and his new sport coat
>> and tie….didn’t he? I kept waiting for that TV reporter to ask
>> him, “That’s too bad that you almost ate your gun and
>> stuff… but tells us… have you actually MET Josh Brolin yet?”
Yep. It’s gonna be a ‘circus’ this week.
Some of the ‘tag lines’ for some of the articles appearing actually DO say things like “Sole Survivor releases book… but HEY!… did you know there’s also gonna be a MOVIE!”.
So yea… expect some of the ‘talking heads to ask Brendan this week…
“Is Josh Brolin really a short guy, like they say?”
Josh is just a person. To me he is an ol surfing punk grown up and his deceased mom would be hurt over some areas he led life and if I ever so see him again I will tell him what that is…he knows…But I ain’t star struck except by the nightly skies…today is filming of the commercial
**
** WATERING DOWN THE NEWS
Well… a ‘watered down’ version of what the Prescott Daily Courier published regarding the ‘Question and Answer’ session and the ‘Family Staff Ride’ is now ‘going viral’ out in the MSM.
Most outlets are just reprinting the ‘watered down’ version that the Associated Press ( AP ) came up with soon after the Daily Courier published their full article at this link…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Families, officials walk in final footsteps of the Hotshots
Posted: Friday, April 29, 2016 4:47 pm | Updated: 5:15 pm, Fri Apr 29, 2016.
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/
And here is (now) the ‘totality’ of the Associated Press ‘copy’ that is being reprinted just about everywhere at the moment.
Absolutely no mention of the critical ‘Question and Answer’ session that was also held ‘in secret’ back on February 5, 2016… and how some family members REFUSED to participate because Arizona Forestry couldn’t even arrange for many of the key witnesses and participants to even BE there to answer the families ‘questions’… as was mandated by the wrongful death settlement(s).
Absolutely no mention of the ‘disappointment’ in BOTH the Court-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ session AND the dog-and-pony-show ‘Staff Ride’ ( full of factual ERRORS ) that has already been expressed by OTHER ‘Family Members’ and plaintiffs in the original 12 ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
All the MSM / AP is ‘printing’ is this ‘chop down’ of the original article…
——————————————————————————————
Associated Press
PRESCOTT, Ariz. (AP) — Family members of 19 firefighters killed in a 2013 Arizona wildfire and fire officials have walked the Hotshots’ final route in an effort to learn how to avoid such deaths in the future.
The walk was part of the Arizona Forestry Divisions’ “staff ride” of the fire, or an all-day hike and multi-stop exercise intended to put participants in the place of people fighting the fire as a learning tool, The Daily Courier reported (http://bit.ly/1SDdXwJ).
Click Here
The families took part in the walk as part of a wrongful death lawsuit filed after the 19 firefighters died on June 30, 2013 while fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire. The staff ride in itself was also part of the lawsuit settlement.
Tom Ashcraft, whose son Andrew died in the fire, said the April 4-5 trek helped him understand why his son died and why more wasn’t done to prevent it such as dropping fire retardant.
“I heard what specific challenges they were facing – weather, wind, and information, which was sporadic,” Ashcraft said. “With the wind pushing into that box canyon, (the retardant) probably would have never reached the ground.”
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney said the staff ride process has been ongoing for months and is expected to wrap up this summer. The ride is a multi-phase process to study the fire. Similar rides usually take eight to 10 years to complete, putting the Yarnell Hill exercise well ahead of the norm.
Whitney said the staff ride is not looking to investigate what went wrong during the Yarnell Hill fire, but instead is meant to be informative about what decisions were made at that time.
“It’s important that we get some clarity around what occurred there,” Whitney said. “And it’s important that we try to do everything we possibly can to equip our current and future fire managers with more information, so they’re better able to do situation awareness and opportunity recognition.”
Ashcraft said his time with the staff ride is helping him process his son’s death.
“I’m very, very thankful I went,” he said. “It was a turning point in my own healing process.”
———————————————————————————-
And am I the only one wondering how people who actually CALL themselves ‘journalists’ have their heads so far up their asses that they let ANYONE get away with the following “Speaking out of both sides of one’s mouth” stuff on the part of Arizona Forester Jeff Whitney?…
“It’s IMPORTANT that we get some CLARITY around what occurred there,”
“The staff ride is NOT looking to investigate what went wrong during the Yarnell Hill fire,”
Unbelievable.
( Not unbelievable that Mr. Company Man “I can talk out of both sides of my mouth AND my ass at the same time… watch me!” Jeff Whitney would THINK he could get away with shit like that … but unbelievable that anyone interviewing him would LET him ).
Followup…
A lot of interesting PUBLIC ‘comments’ have been appearing on that recent Prescott Daily Courier article regarding the ‘secret’ Question/Answer day that took place back on February 5, 2016, and the recent ‘Family Staff Ride’.
Apparently even in ‘Everybody’s Home Town’ ( good ‘ol Prescott, Arizona ) opinions are still ‘mixed’ about whether even Eric Marsh was ‘ordered’ to bring Granite Mountain ‘out of the safe black’.
That DC article is here…
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/
And in case some of them suddenly ‘disappear’… here are a few of those
interesting PUBLIC comments that have been posted…
———————————————————————
Antinomies – 3 days, 2 hours ago
All firemen are demi-gods who can do no wrong and should be worshipped and glorified as better than mere mortals.
Rcadya – 2 days, 23 hours ago
HDE: Apparently it was not their fault. Somebody (?) had them move from safe clear ground to an area where there was a lot of fuel. They followed directions. We will probably never know the truth.
BaloneyBob – 2 days, 8 hours ago
The loss of our friends in this unfortunate wreck-less tragedy is horrific.
The responsible shall one day answer for this.
Realist – 2 days, 7 hours ago
Rcayda, orders to leave the black didn’t come from anyone other than the Sup and Captain of the crew. They made an error in judgement. Unfortunately, that error brought this to where it is today. This is a horrible situation. When a tragedy happens, survivors are always looking for someone to blame. Someone has to be accountable. Sadly, those that are accountable for the decision are no longer around to explain the reasons behind the decision.
fredlu1 – 2 days, 4 hours ago
I agree with REALIST. The blame, unfortunately, lies with the crew. For whatever reason, they made a fatal decision. You can blame the radios, the weather, God, and all the agencies that were involved in the fire. Truth hurts sometimes.
—————————————————————————–
And just about 4 hours ago… someone ‘joined’ the ongoing conversation over there at the Prescott Daily Courier who, apparently, has actually already participated in one of the THREE ‘Staff Rides’ ( Alpha, Beta or Charlie ) that have already ‘gone down’…
—————————————————————————
LaserDave – 3 hours, 55 minutes ago
Realist, Fredlu 1, PrescottLady
“Orders to leave the black didn’t come from anyone other than the Sup and Captain of the crew. They made an error in judgement. I agree with REALIST. The blame, unfortunately, lies with the crew. proof of this is the low settlement amount. if there had been any compelling evidence of CAUSATIVE fault on the part of others, the settlements would have been much higher.”
While at this time there are not any or anyone stepping up to say they “were Ordered” out of the black. What we do know now after going on the SR is that John Burnfield “Bravo 33” Did have other communications with Eric Marsh while he was near BSR.
Responsibilities of Wildland Fire Supervisors; Did overhead at Yarnell Hill Fire 2013 exhibit or conduct themselves in a appropriate manner? Supervision of other firefighters includes the following tasks: • Maintain accountability of assigned personnel’s exact location and general welfare at all times, especially during incident operations.
Low Settlement Amount; Had NOTHING to do with compelling evidence, and ALL to do with Arizona Workmen’s Compensation Laws. The State of Arizona always had the winning hand, this was only a face saving gesture to the Families and the Plaintiff Attorneys.
I am ready to stand and Hear that crew is completely at fault as soon as all you know the truth comes forward in a meaningful way!!!
——————————————————————-
I just ran across an interesting comment from Iron Bob Powers in 2014. I wish I would have had this comment to point to when Iron Bob and I were going round and round a few weeks ago about how he was better than ever after he retired from the USFS and went on to work in law enforcement for another 16 (?) years. The Bob I knew and respected so much used to make sense.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/chapter-iv-comments/#comment-10813
Well…I guess I can post it for you, seeing how WTKTT goes to so much trouble for all of us.
Bob Powers says
FEBRUARY 12, 2014 AT 2:25 PM
Mike –I can guarantee you that I was ready to retire at 50.
When I hit my 40’s I no longer was line overhead. I was still healthy as to day but 16 hour shifts and hiking mountains were getting old. As my Dr. always told me I did not take very good care of my body in the past. That’s also why it is mandatory age 55 retirement for wild Land Fire Fighters, or 50 with 25 years. At 50 I had 33 years. No 50 is not the new 30 maybe for a small few.
No 50 is still 50
Yes I was in other Fire Jobs.
Air attack, Equipment manager, Supervisory Dispatcher/De-mobe Dispatcher.
Quote– I was Still Healthy as today.
I was ready to retire at 50 not because of my health but because I was Frustrated and fed up with the changes in the Forest service.
So you are still banging on you are to old to work at 50, 60, etc.
No I enjoyed my change in Carrier and my health held out till I hit 68.
END OF STORY—————
No…Bob I am banging on you because I am the Jackkhammer. Most of the people I start banging on eventually if not sooner get a thousand yard stare on their otherwise blank faces as they ask themselves, “Why did I ever start fucking with this guy, he just doesn’t quit.” That’s why they called me the Jackhammer. It is NOT arrogance on my part, it is a fact. Why the fuck do you think they made me a hotshot crew boss (Superintendent) at the age of 23 in a hyper hotshot program on steroids that was more military than the military at the time? Because I am a NICE guy and I like to make friends and friends are the most important thing in the world to me? No…they did it because I get the job done, no matter what. And right now one of my jobs it to prove you wrong that all of those burned out fucksticks who were running the Yarnell Hill Fire fucked up big time because they couldn’t wrap their fucking heads around what was happening because they hadn’t ever seen a fire do that before. And do you know what is wrong with that…among a whole list of things that were wrong with that (just wait until my fucking book comes out and I will give you the complete list), their cognitive skills were NOT hitting on all of the cylinders just like yours aren’t or you wouldn’t say so many stupid things. And just like mine aren’t or I would have been back in Arizona months ago and I would have put this bitch down a long time ago. Whoops…got distracted again. The biggest problem with what happened is there is there is NO accountability for those needledick bugfuckers because they are a bunch of retired has beens, they have their slice of pie,they don’t even work for anybody and they don’t have to in order to eat or pay the bills or feed their kids. They fight fire because they are bored and they want to buy toys or go on ocean cruises, not because they have to…so they get to say, NO, we are NOT even showing up when the hard questions are going to get asked because THEY DON’T HAVE TO and nobody can make them which means there is even less ACCOUNTABILITY in a system that almost no accountability in the first place.
BEGINNING OF STORY—-I will TELL YOU when I am DONE!
Oh…and one more thing WTKTT, because I am a trained investigator and I am That Guy I am willing to tell you who the most likely candidate who spoke like a Cajun with a Louisiana accent, which was probably your politically correct way of saying he talked like an African American, he is the black guy (one of about 3 black guys fighting wildfire in the U.S. outside of Region 8) in the photo of all (or many, or some) of the overhead who fought that cursed Yarnell Hill Fire in that God (or imaginary friend as you like to call the Great Creator) Forsaken corner of hillbilly hell, end of the road collection of desert rats (no offense Sonny, I have been a desert rat myself and right now I am a tree squirrel), retirees and people who live on the fringes of the rest of society because they can’t cope with how fucked up this world is or they are felons and child molesters…either one.
So…ask what that guy’s name is and then ask him what the fuck he knows about who Eric Marsh was kissing up to so bad he killed his entire crew because of the chance he had to make them happy and give a glowing report back to the city fathers of that shit hole they call Prescott…Everybody’s Home Town so he could keep his dream alive, get promoted and not lose his job and crew to the budget ax so he lost his life AND his crew to that bitch (non-gender specific) of a fire.
Fuck it…I’m going back to bed and after I wake up again I am going Jeeping or maybe ATV riding in the Capitol Forest that surrounds half of this beautiful emerald city on the Puget Sound because I am retired just like most of the Yarnell Hill Fire team and I don’t answer to anybody…except my dear wife and she is asleep right now because she worked last night and she doesn’t give a fuck what I do on Saturdays…wait…what day is today? Oh…yeah….it’s SATURDAY!
Sorry you got to old at 55.
Some people do that and others keep on trucking.
I will say one more time before you were out of Diapers Many Wild Land Fire FMO’s in the 60’s were not retiring until they were 65 and they were all great teachers Maybe That’s what’s wrong today there are no hard tough Supervisors to teach the Kids the right way to do the Job. I owe my carrier to FMO Burt Hutichison he Hired me in 1962 and retired in 1967 at the young age of 65.
Well…I think everybody knows why Bob was only a hotshot for a couple of years and never made it to crew boss. He is a very SLOW learner.
When the old time FMO made me a hotshot crew boss he took for a ride in his 4×4 Dodge pickup truck to inspect his district. All of those old time USFS FMO’s felt the most comfortable in their 4×4’s driving through their districts.
I never applied for the job because it was never advertised, they ASKED me to take over the crew because they needed me to. I would never have applied for it.
In fact, the only job I ever really applied for was to work on the Coconino and not as a hotshot. That is how people really get ahead the government. Job applications are for the nobody’s who just take a shot in the dark hoping they hit something. Everybody that moves up is hand selected and they usually don’t even know they are being evaluated for their next job. That’s how it works.
I would never have thought I could have done the job, but I proved myself wrong after a sever year run…and then they asked me to take on a lot more responsibility of running the entire Interagency Zone Dispatch Center.
That was the beginning of my arrogance…when the USFS put on top of one of their hotshot crew boss pedestals. It was a very fine view from up there. When the hotshot crew boss walked into a room…everybody knew it.
I have a question for the old Oak Grove Hotshot go to guy. Why don’t you just shut the fuck up because you disqualified yourself as a credible person when you said your friends are the most important thing in the world to you and not the job?
Nobody can tell me a fucking thing about being a hotshot. I experienced first hand one of the greatest disaster fire in wildland firefighter history, as a hotshot from the fire line.
The aftermath of that fire resulted in all wildland firefighters carrying fire shelters all of the time for all agencies in the entire country in addition to fire resistant trousers. I was a hotshot crew boss at 23 and started my own hotshot crew from scratch that still exists today. I saw and did it all…several times over.
Arrogant…yes…I earned that. I am now an old man who is going to ride my ATV like I stole it today in the Capitol Fores because it has been so sunny and nice for the last week here including today, I feel like I am back in Arizona except that it is beautiful around here and I don’t have to say, “Well…the desert really is nice, you just have to be in the right frame of mind when you experience it.”
And I have stopped in Bumfuck Idaho a few times to get gas, let’s see…you have flat farm land and prairie for as far as far as a crow can fly and you have the Snake River to go fishing in, other than that, you have the Snake River to go fishing in and if you get tired of that, you can go fishing in the Snake River.
The winners write the history books…and I won.
So…shut the fuck up old man, an an ex hotshot CREW BOSS is talking (or typing, it is a brave new world). I don’t have time to play any more with you today, I have to go load my quad up.
Well…actually I DO have time to play with you because today is Saturday, I just don’t want to because I got better things to do.
What are going to do today? Gum another bowl of oatmeal and then go fishin’ in the Snake?
Oh…and when I say I experienced everything as a hotshot more than once. That includes disaster fires since I was on the fire line as a hotshot CREW BOSS on the Ship Island Creek Fire.
If you check out my very cool trip down memory lane to a bitchin’ sound track you will see a photo of me eating dinner with MY hotshot crew on the saddle/helispot/spike camp where those two stupid ass overhead who were probably like Bob were burned over and one was killed because stupid fucking line overhead never even carry gloves because they don’t do any fucking work and he couldn’t hold down the edges of his fire shelter.
Memo to everyone: Don’t let Bob or anyone else impress you because they say they were in overhead positions. That is a code word for they probably don’t know what the fuck they are talking about or doing because they have pencil whipped quals and that is their first fire since they slid into that job four years ago.
Those two fucking genius’ on the Ship Island Creek Fire piled nylon packs and other toxic shit around them for a fire wall to hide behind!
Say Bob…why don’t you post some photos of you leasing YOUR CREW on a bad ass fire with some fucking flames. All firefighters take photos of bad ass fires they are on, or the next guy does. I showed you mine, show me yours.
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
You know how it is. If it isn’t on YouTube…it didn’t happen.
OK…I got my quad loaded and I have time for ONE more comment. But first…Bob are you getting senile? You learned a long time ago NOT to talk back to a hotshot crew boss didn’t you? NOBODY does that.
So…here is my comment for everyone who wants to know including the families our dead GMIHC. Even IF they would have had fire shelters that could have withstood convective (DIRECT) flames of 2000 degree or more…about half of them would have died anyway, it would just have taken longer. You don’t believe me? Go heat up a steel plate until it is glowing red hot and then see how long you can keep you hand on it. That is what it would have been like inside that kind of a fire shelter because about half of them didn’t even have their gloves on. That deployment site was NOT survivable for anyone in any kind of fire shelter a wildland firefighter can carry on the fire line. For one thing…they don’t come with a self contained breathing apparatus with oxygen like those pussies (non-gender specific) structural firefighters have their faces stuck into all of the time.
The decisioin to deply fire shelters in that place at that time was a death sentence…the only chance they had was to run somewhere…anywhere, but into the fucking flames like they did on the Battlement Creek Fire right after one of them screamed ”
I’M ON FIRE! And they would have had a better chance of survival because they might have come out of the other side, it wan’st a timber fire with heavy fuels for Christ’s Sake (please forgive me sweet baby JESUS). Those fucking kind of fires burn HOT burn they burn FAST.
YOU fucking people paid MILLIONS of dollars to train just me. And I am willing to tell you the truth…what the fuck is wrong with you. I KNOW what I am talking about.
I received a NATIONAL SERVICE WIDE award that was adopted nation wide by the entire U.S. FOREST SERVICE and as goes the USFS, so goes all wildland firefighting agencies and a big check for an employee that all wildland firefighters carry an extra pair of gloves (preferably with some heat resistant lining) after the Ship Island Creek Fire. I am like Donald Trump…I am fucking SMART and I went to the best schools. It was a gladiator school on the Mighty Coconino and I was a top student.
There should be a pouch for extra gloves in those fire shelters by now…fuck it’s been more than 30 years, isn’t that enough time for even the U.S.Forest Service and the NWCG to do something right…anything?
Why don’t you try taking off your line gear, getting that shelter out of that tight pouch, pulling on that red tap and getting that shelter out of the plastic cover, snapping it open like a bed sheet that has never been taken out of an air tight pouch and then crawling under it when your hands and fingers stopped working before you even started the process because your brain is sending all of your blood to your vital organs AND then see if you still have both of your gloves on or can even find them in the toxic smoke that has been blinding you and making it impossible to even breath since you started because you waited to fucking long to even start to crawl under that death shroud to DIE by being burned alive.
Fuck me silly and call me Sally! WAKE UP! And get this right!
I was not and still am not a camera picture taker.
I was to busy actually fighting Fires.
When I hit the Oak Grove Crew I was a Sector Boss. Asst. Superintendent. Listed as Crew Boss 1972/73.
Crew Boss/Engine Boss/ Sector Boss
All the Fires below
1964–1969–Crew Boss 22 Class E fires
1970–
Sycamore class E Angeles NF
James class E, Sanbernadeno
Waterman Class E, Sanbernadeno NF
Meyers Class E –Sanbernadeno NF
1971
Santayenes class E Los Padres
Bloomfield Class E Sequoia
Akens Class E Angeles
McGee Class E Inyo NF
1972/73 9 Class E’s
I could go on But you get the Idea I did not list all the A thru D Fires to many to count.
1974 thru 1990 Sector Boss/ Division Boss/ Air attack Boss Type 2 OPS and IC,
All the further you got was a fucking Crew Boss
You call that a carrier? I call it a dead end you could not handle smoke and called it quits.
You ever been on a Fire in the LA Basin during a smog alert in an inversion You would have been on Oxygen with your problems. The first requirement for Shelters in R5 was 1965.you were way behind the times.
Gat back on your Meds you are rambling again.
LIAR…the guy next to you was. EVERY wildland firefighter has photos of themselves fighting fire, you are nothing but a blow hard, wannabe and a LIAR!
It wasn’t too much of a dead end Bob. I ended up as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Senior Sage Brush Cop) working for the Washington D.C. office of my agency at the pay equivalent of a GS-15, I make more than $80,000 a year in retirement. What do you make…about $30,000. Money and status is how we measure success in this life…it sucks but that is the way it is.
And I had a Top Secret Security Clearance that had to be renewed every five years to keep my job. I wasn’t on, I have never been on meds, that line is getting old from one of my jokes two years ago…you fucking NOBODY. Pencil whipped quals…somebody like you killed the GMIHC.
OVERHEAD…nobody on a hotshot crew listens to OVERHEAD. You know that NUMBER TWO.
No Gary you are the Blow Hard.
We Took Pictures on Oak Grove with a FS Camera and they all went to the File Gov. Owned.
I had no reason to be a Movie Star.
Go Fuck your self———–
Iron Bob said, “Mike –I can guarantee you that I was ready to RETIRE at 50. (It was too much for me to keep up with) When I hit my 40’s I no longer was line overhead. (Couldn’t even work a do nothin’ overhead job in his 40’s) I was still healthy as to day but 16 hour shifts and hiking mountains were getting old. As my Dr. always told me I did not take very good care of my body in the past (He drank too much alcohol and he still does, that is what puts him to sleep at night, or in the afternoon, or right after his oatmeal). That’s also why it is mandatory age 55 retirement for wild Land Fire Fighters, or 50 with 25 years. (So he got a part time job playin” Barney Fife so he could buy toys and burn up a lot of free ammo) At 50 I had 33 years. No 50 is not the new 30 maybe for a small few. jBut not Bob, he couldn’t handle it so he was ready to retire at age 50).
Bob forgot who he is talking back to, I can prove he is a LIAR because he said he retired at 50 with 33 years. THAT MATH DOES NOT ADD UP.
The very most he could have had at 50 was 32 years and that is if he got hired on this eighteenth birthday…fucking LIAR! “Lyin’ Bob” they called him back in the day.
OK Gary I started in 1971 I retired in 1974.
33 years Fire Management nothing else.
I worked the summers of 71,72,73 and got picked up on appointment in April of 74..
Yes I was hired at 17 in 1961 Cal Fire.
I am in Gods country 3 hours from any place that you want to Hunt Fish or Trail Ride. I chose to stay here at a GS 9 and have never regretted it
Ya my FS Retirement is $40.000 but then I own my house and all my vehicles so what I get is all mine not the banks. Oh ya I get another $16,000 SS.
Again you were nothing but a grunt Fire Fighter for what 12 years or dose that include your 2 or 3 years in the Dispatch.
You are so full of shit it is flowing out on this IM blog.
Adios MF——————–
Wops Started in 1961 retired in 1994
You ARE a VERY slow learner. You can’t insult me by calling me nothing but a grunt or a ground pounder. How many times have I said on this blog how PROUD I am that is all I ever was? That is all I wanted to be.
And no, I started on the Prescott in 1974 and left the USFS in late 1988. So…that was I was 1 season as a district WF, 10 seasons as a hotshot and four years not in dispatch…as The Forest Dispatcher and Coordinator of the Interagency fire operations center…try to keep up old man.
Tell you what…we can settle this by me buying you your very own bottle of…what do you drink?
Thunderbird? You drink anything with an alcohol content don’t you?
Yep…a ground pounder and a grunt was all I ever wanted to be, but it turned out God had different plans for me too, so…God loved me more or less than the crew?
Wait…I can’t remember how this goes…ask your bastard son the next time the two of you are chatting like girlfriends on your phones to check with Willis to find out if God loved me because he made me have a great career or didn’t love me as much because he didn’t call me home to be with him a few decades ago.
In fact…I am still here and I never got to go ride my ATV today, maybe that was part of God’s Plan as well, because I might have wrapped myself around one of these trees up here?
That’s it Bob, you were an instrument in God’s hands today, you saved me so I can both ride and blog another day. Thank you.
And you keep telling me goodbye but you never leave…so WTF…Over?
We can always look at the bright side. The lines are lit up, the word is out, Iron Man Bob and Ground Pounder Gary are going at it again on the blog. The hits will be way up today. 🙂
Reply to Gary Olson post on May 2, 2016 at 9:54 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Oh…and one more thing WTKTT, because I am a trained
>> investigator and I am That Guy I am willing to tell you
>> who the most likely candidate who spoke like a Cajun
>> with a Louisiana accent, which was probably your
>> politically correct way of saying he talked like an
>> African American, he is the black guy (one of about
>> 3 black guys fighting wildfire in the U.S. outside of
>> Region 8) in the photo of all (or many, or some) of the
>> overhead who fought that cursed Yarnell Hill Fire in
>> that God (or imaginary friend as you like to call the
>> Great Creator) Forsaken corner of hillbilly hell, end
>> of the road collection of desert rats
Well… yea… about half the people I know that DO have ‘Cajun accents’ are, in fact, African Americans from Louisiana… but on that point… I still don’t think there’s any absolute proof that there were ANY ‘black guys’ in fire command at the Yarnell Hill Fire that Sunday, June 30, 2013.
If you are talking about the photo where there is that guy with the ‘bluish tint’ all over his face and neck… I still don’t think it’s been absolutely verified that he is a ‘black guy’. There’s just some weird shit going on with the ‘light’ in that photo and the nearby BLUE lights of a police car out-of-frame to the rear of whoever was shooting the photo are doing strange things to people’s faces in that photograph.
But regardless of the ‘ethnic identity’ of whoever felt it was important to be asking ‘Granite Mountain’ their STATUS at exactly 4:13 PM… there’s little disagreement that the person had that ‘heavy accent’.
Even Holly Neill told ADOSH she thought that was the case.
Here is the email that Holly Neill sent to ADOSH on January 8, 2014, where SHE is describing what SHE thinks she is hearing in the Panabaker Air Study video radio capture at excatcly 4:13 PM.
This is the one where she first reported that she was hearing Marsh say he was ‘at the house’… and she was interpreting that as some kind of ‘proof’ that Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
It’s also where she is repeating her ‘demand/desire’ that ADOSH update their ‘report’ in order to show ( her words ) “a more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC”.
She was still thinking that this ‘proof’ she thought she found that Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch was ‘proof’ that Marsh was being a good little hotshot… and that he HAD ‘scouted and timed’ the ‘escape route’.
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 1:33 PM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: Re: GM audio
Attachments: Audio Results.docx
Marshall,
Here is an analysis I put together of some possible implications,
in attachment doc. Something to think about…
Best to you… Holly\
————————————————————————-
One of Holly Neill’s ‘analysis’ document sent to ADOSH…
————————————————————————-
To: WFA
From: Holly Neill
01-07-2013
The audio file I am sending is the cleaned, audio only version.
From _README file: …the time stamp on the video ( 16162 ) is the end time of the video, not the beginning. Video length 3:31
The original Video/audio is from: SAIT Investigation Record \ F-PhotosAndVideos \ A05-20130630AerialFirefightingStudyPhotosVideos
Video: 20130630-16162-O-VLAT-split-1-E-P
Start at 00:41: Background conversation:
—————————————————–
First voice: Division Alpha… (unclear on the next word.. Todd? OPS? Ah?)… what’s your status ( pronounced stay-tus ) right now?
Marsh: Ah the guys, ah Granite is making their way down—our escape route from this morning. It’s ah, it’s South… Mid slope, cut vertical.
A Different Voice: Copy. Working their (our?) way down into the structures.
First Voice Again: …on the escape route with Granite Mountain right now?
Marsh: Nah, I’m at the house where we’re gonna jump out at.
—————————————————–
I have used the above audio file to make some comparisons to the SAIR and WFA reports to illustrate some of the possible implications of this audio. Changes would need to be made to add this additional information and correct previous assumptions. I believe this will lead to leaving a more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC; providing more clarity for their families, and adding a better understanding of possible lessons the entire WFF community can learn.
Holly Neill.
————————————————————————-
A lot of what Holly Neill ‘thought’ she was hearing in that radio capture has been disputed, and even she and John Maclean sort of ‘backed off’ some of their original assertions when they went public with this up at Bill Gabbert’s ‘Wildfire Today’ site…
…but even Holly Neill was hearing ‘the accent’ on the part of the person who was asking ‘Granite Mountain’ what their ‘status’ was at 4:13 PM and was making a ‘note’ of it in what she gave to ADOSH.
She is definitely hearing ‘stay-tus’.
The whole question being asked there ( at exactly 4:13 PM ) pretty much sounds like this…
“Granite Montun… ( the caller’s CALLSIGN? )… Wuz yo stay-tus rat now?”
Holly Neill also originally thought she was hearing the same person with the ‘accent’ as the one asking the followup question to Marsh about whether he was actually WITH ‘Granite Mountain’ at that moment ( 4:13 PM ).
She thought she was hearing this…
First Voice Again: …on the escape route with Granite Mountain right now?
Whether it’s that ‘First Voice Again’ or not ( it *might* be ) it’s doubtful that the words ‘escape route’ are in the question and what he was asking Marsh is more like ( simply )…
“Are you WITH Granite Mountain right now?”
Holly Neill also originally was sure she heard Marsh say “Nah” ( NO ) in response to that question… which is what a lot of other people hear as well.
Bottom Line: I still think this person who is speaking directly to Eric Marsh at 4:13 PM, ( right smack in the middle of the 30 minute period when Arizona Forestry and the SAIT said NO ONE was doing any such thing ) should have been ‘easily identifiable’ to the original investigators… if they had only even bothered to TRY and identify him.
I still think it’s ABSURD that when Jeff Whitney ‘walked out’ of that recent interview that HE had requested with John Dougherty the day before the ‘Family Staff Ride’ on April 5, 2016… and then he sent Arizona Forestry’s Joy Hernbrode into the room with John insted… Joy Hernbrode then had this to say about whether anyone had any evidence of ‘further communications with’ or ‘planning’ going on with Granite Mountain…
“….if somebody HAS evidence of that… we definitely would like to see it.”
News Flash for ya, Joy.
YOU ( Arizona Forestry ) have ALWAYS had ‘such evidence’ in your possession.
And everybody ( except for YOU? ) KNOWS it.
And when John Dougherty then tried to point this fact out to Joy in the on-camera interview ( with questions regarding WHO is being CLEARLY heard talking to Eric Marsh in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video )…
…she immediately ENDED the interview… like a scared rabbit.
Just for reference…
ALL of Holly Neill’s emails to ADOSH, and her attempts to get them to ‘update’ their official report to make things look better ( in her mind ) for Eric Marsh and the GM Hotshots have always been part of the ORIGINAL ADOSH public evidence folder.
They are contained in this PUBLIC document…
/ ADOSH / Dropbox / Notes and Emails / Krotenberg / N9589 January 2014.pdf
Here is a direct link to that PUBLIC evidence folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAA8w9VKiGs4f4XshHNCO_qpa/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails/Krotenberg?dl=0
No…I am talking about the BLACK guy (African American), I am never sure which one is the right one to say, so I use both in a sentence if I can). I already looked for the photo because it made me sick to look at the group of smug bad ass wildland firefighters but I deleted it. I found it by accident while I was researching material for the book I am going to write that is going to blow the whistle on that entire fucking circus called the Yarnell Hill Fire and all of the clowns running it.
I will keep looking for it. OR somebody with some BALLS could just post his name here under an alias and save us some trouble…you chicken shit bunch of HYBRID pusssies (non-gender specific).
FYI – It was a group photo of what looked like most of the clown troupe in front of the “Where the desert breeze meets the mountain air in a shit hole from hell” sign.
They all had dirty faces like they had been playin’ in their momma’s mascara so I think it was a typical “hero” photo of a bunch of losers because they wanted to remember their role forever in the single biggest FUCK UP in wildland firefighting history. I will keep looking for it.
I recognized some of the guys like the Three Stoodges from the Prescott, especially the guy with the goatee, he had a really mean look on his fact like he thinks he is a real bad ass, most of them did.
I wish I would have had them on my crew back in the day. I would have eaten them for lunch and shit them out by dinner time or I would have taught then how to fight wildfire, depending on their potential.
Bunch of ball less pussy (non-gender specific) clowns.
I haven’t found it yet, but will keep looking. Nobody has done the right thing…HUGE SURPRISE…and emailed me at [email protected] and told his name.
I know the blue guy you are talking about (I ask Marti what was up with the blue guy and Marti said he was black but then somebody else said it was because of the emergency lights nearby) but this guy didn’t look blue…he looked black.
It looked like a class photo of many of the fuck up overhead from the Yarnell Hill Fire. It didn’t look like a working crew…it looked like a bunch of fuck ups who wanted to capture their biggest moment in their sad lives to remember they were THERE and played a role in killing the crew..
Oh…and there are literally hundreds of people out there right now who know exactly who you are talking about.
Well…somebody just told me they think that might have been a Type II crew, but I thought I saw at least one of the Three Stooges in the photo?
But in any case, whether it is that guy or not…there weren’t very many Cajuns on that fire no matter how you look at it. There are hundreds of people who know exactly who you are talking about…like the Cajun.
But it is the same ole shit, nobody knows nothin.’
they did have a African American on the prison crew that Andrew Williams showed us the photos-
Well…I gave up about who the black guy was, but somebody knows who the Cajun was, and he knows who Marsh was kissin’ up so hard to he killed his crew to make that you-know-what happy.
**
** THE CRUCIAL QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION
** SECRETLY TOOK PLACE BACK ON FEB 5, 2016.
Well.. it’s been confirmed.
The crucial ‘question and answer’ session between Arizona Forestry and family members of the deceased GM Hotshots that was mandated in the settlement of 12 of the 15 wrongful death lawsuits took place ‘in secret’ back on February 5, 2016.
The Prescott Daily Courier has just now published a LONG article about this… as well as covering the ‘Family Members’ Staff Ride the first week of April and also confirming the ‘Fire Community’ Staff ride which just took place a few days ago.
The new article is here…
http://m.dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/?
According to the article… the crucial Q/A meeting back in February was pretty much a joke. The legal settlement gave family members the RIGHT to request WHO should be present at this meeting to actually answer their questions… but MANY of the key witnesses and participants simply refused to be there.
This new article also CONFIRMS something else.
The legal settlement had a blurb in it about the things that Arizona Forestry was now REQUIRED to do ( such as the Q/A meeting and the Staff Ride ) were supposedly dependent on the (quote) “cessation of all litigation including all appeals”.
The Courier article now CONFIRMS that Jeff Whitney and Arizona Forestry decided to waive that and go ahead with things… even though there ARE still cases that are still being actively appealed and have not yet resolved.
So that also represents a confirmation that at least one of the 3 wrongful death lawsuits that was NOT part of the Patrick Mcgroder negotiated settlement ( Marcia McKee’s original wrongful death lawsuit ) is still actively on appeal and there has been NO final resolution of that lawsuit yet.
And Whitney also fully acknowledges that all the property damage lawsuits that were filed are also still in the appeal process and there real hasn’t been any final resolution of those lawsuits, either.
Followup…
The link above actually comes out formatted for MOBILE device.
Here is a link to the DESKTOP version of today’s Courier article…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Families, officials walk in final footsteps of the Hotshots
Originally Published: Friday, April 29, 2016 6:02 a.m
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/
From the article…
——————————————————————
To date, family members appear mixed on the results of the settlement agreement.
While Deborah Pfingston, mother of fallen Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft, says the question and-answer session and the staff ride exercise were helpful, she points out that some families had concerns about the expected outcome.
“Some families chose not to come,” Pfingston said of the question-and-answer session, which took place in Phoenix on Feb. 5, 2016.
For some, concerns centered on the level of participation among the wildland officials who were onsite at the Yarnell Hill fire in 2013.
Linda Caldwell, the mother of fallen Hotshot Robert Caldwell, said that while she participated in the settlement process early on, she decided not to take part in the question and-answer session.
“I got frustrated with it, because the people who know the answers weren’t going to be there,” Caldwell said, maintaining that the session appeared to be “lip service,” without the participation of key local officials who were in charge the day of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Pfingston also mentioned the absence of some of the key local wildland officials who decided not to participate.
She said, “I think they held their line. I do believe there are some that are still holding information, because of the ramifications.”
Specifically, she said, the officials stood behind the Serious Accident Investigation Report, which she said was “extremely flawed, and full of holes.”
Whitney pointed out that the question-and-answer session was intended to be conducted “after all litigation is concluded, including appeals.”
While noting this past week that property-loss lawsuits and one wrongful death appeal are still pending, he said the Forestry Division determined, “It’s too important not to do this now.
——————————————————————
Registered letter sent to state officials associated with the Yarnell Fire Incident–no reply as of yet sent out over a week ago. Response, if any, will be posted.
“The Yarnell fire was under your jurisdiction and to date the incident management team leaders (Musser/Hall/Abel/Cordes/Willis) have not yet clearly told the public the truth about GM’s final last hours. In a recorded message at 3:50 pm Abel had a conversation with Marsh where Marsh is saying he is working his way off the top and Abel responds “Copy that, keep me updated. Hunker and be safe and we’ll get air support down there ASAP.” Hunker and be safe is not an order it is similar to saying
“God Bless —God Be With You…be safe” Abel has made a big deal about “hunker and be safe” yet is acknowledging GM will need and have air support…when they get to the bottom. There were continuing conversations until the deployments and death. It is long past due for the public to know the full details. If honest mistakes were made in under the Yarnell extreme fire conditions we need to fully know the specifics. There can be no healing until this process is completed.
If the State of Arizona and those specified above deny the above, I want it formally stated in writing and signed by all those noted above and by the state of Arizona. All we have are lots of unsigned witness statements where most the true facts are left unsaid. With signed statements where these men and the State of Arizona write us they are telling whole the truth as they know it, we can begin to hold these men and the State of Arizona publicly accountable.”
Actually there were three:
From: “Bill Boyd”
Date: Apr 25, 2016 10:03 AM
Subject: records request
To: “[email protected]”
Cc:
Dear Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) and Joy Collura,
I have received your public record request dated April 20, 2016.
Regarding the embossed document with Scott Hunt’s name but not his signature: I need you to be more specific please. What was it embossed with? Subject?
Regarding the Yavapai College question: Jeff Whitney was not employed by the State of Arizona between 6/30/13 and 7/4/13 nor was he involved in the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Regarding bulldozer operations: All bulldozer documents have been provided.
Regarding the questions and answers session with the families: I have those documents available.
Regarding the development of the Staff Ride: I have those documents available.
I can also provide a copy of the settlement agreement and the Serious Accident Investigation Report.
Due to the volume of documents involved email is not possible. If you can come to our Phoenix office I can provide you the materials on CD. If you are not able to pick the documents up in person please provide a self-addressed CD envelope.
Thank you,
Bill Boyd
Public Affairs and Legislative Officer
Arizona State Forestry
1110 W. Washington St., Suite 100
Phoenix, AZ 85007
Office: (602) 771-5156
Mobil: (480) 540-2081
Email: [email protected]
———- Forwarded message ———-
From: “Bill Boyd”
Date: Apr 25, 2016 1:51 PM
Subject: RE: records request
To: “yarnell hikers”
Cc:
The SAIR and the settlement agreement are the official documents regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. Any evidence that Forestry has in its custody has been made public and provided as part of the investigation.
From: yarnell hikers [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 10:35 AM
To: Bill Boyd
Subject: Re: records request
The part about the sair was the most serious topic.
I want you to know, Bill, the evidence information and who is in possession of it has been shared to Knapp too. The signatures of these men that were listed and the state of Arizona signature was to allow you all to know with or without signatures the truth is about to come out but was hoping you all did it first because I love Arizona and hoped they do right by me…ignorant house wife who believes truth matters. ..and just was forthcoming. I’m not the owner of material just a person who heard first hand discussion and know who does have it. So yes it would be nice to have in my hands that even to this date Arizona forestry and the men there still agree with sair even though there is proof that does not show new evidence but just areas not yet shared public. Joy H the lawyer of yours said public said Dr Ted Putnam’s claim were based on evidence not yet seen or shown but this seems to be most likely not the case so why has noone subpoena Dr ted Putnam yet? I’m confused.
yarnell hikers
9:04 AM (0 minutes ago)
to me
———- Forwarded message ———-
From: “Bill Boyd”
Date: Apr 25, 2016 4:05 PM
Subject: RE: Fwd: RE: records request
To: “yarnell hikers”
Cc:
I will cover the CD if you cover the postage.
From: yarnell hikers [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 3:10 PM
To: Bill Boyd
Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: records request
Than we would like all forestry has for the last hour before they died as far as communications and if the sair is it than that’s okay…and still think the nations top lead fire fatality investigator Dr Ted Putnam should be subpoena for what he has that has caused a stir world wide. Let’s call him out. I will find counsel and see if l can do it myself and file suit to obtain what he has or ask him direct for it but I know you all are able to do it hence why I’m confused why Joy H. has not yet.
I will get it in the mail tomorrow the SASE. How much for CD?
Thank you Bill.
**
** MCDONOUGH IS TRYING TO ‘DIAL BACK’ SOME OF
** HIS PREVIOUS PUBLIC STATEMENTS
Bill Gabbert over at ‘Wildfire Today’ has, apparently, read McDonough’s new book… and he is quoting from its content more than any other article I’ve read so far.
( I have still not seen or read this McDonough thing ).
And according to some ‘new’ quotes from the book that Gabbert is now publishing… Brendan isn’t just refusing to talk about certain things… he is actually now trying to ‘DIAL BACK’ things he has ALREADY said.
Wildfire Today ( Bill Gabbert )
Article Title: Lone survivor from Yarnell Hill Fire publishes book
Published: April 25, 2016
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/04/25/lone-survivor-from-yarnell-hill-fire-publishes-book/
From the article…
————————————————————————————-
I was hoping that the book would reveal more about WHY the 19 men left the safety of a previously burned area (the “black”) and hiked cross-country through dense unburned brush where they were entrapped by the fire. That is a crucial piece of the puzzle not yet revealed to the public. A piece that could add to the body of knowledge about firefighting that could be a valuable lesson learned — possibly preventing similar fatalities.
But a clue was in our interview eight months ago when he said:
“I would never … if my brothers did make mistakes, I would never keep that a secret to put in a book. There’s nothing that is going to be in there that people don’t already know.”
And he was true to his word. While he revealed a great deal about his private life, there is little about what happened on June 30, 2013 that has not already come out in the investigations, reports, and the video recordings made by various firefighters that day that included audio of radios used by firefighters. While there are many quotes of radio conversations in the book, most of them appear to have been previously revealed in the recordings. There are no earth-shaking revelations about who made the crucial decisions, or why, that led to the Granite Mountain Hotshots being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Mr. McDonough wrote in the book:
“I had no idea they had moved out of the black. Neither did anyone else.
The focus was on saving Yarnell and not getting burned up ourselves.”
————————————————————————————-
There are actually THREE ( new ) separate statements there ( in the book ) coming ( supposedly ) straight from Brendan McDonough…
1. “I had no idea they had moved out of the black”.
Horseshit.
Compare THAT with what Brendan himself said in his previous interview with Bill Gabbert back in August of 2015… which is here…
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/08/31/the-yarnell-hill-fire-lone-survivor-interview-with-brendan-mcdonough/
In THAT interview… Bill Gabbert reported…
“Brendan said that he didn’t hear a radio conversation between the two about WHY the crew left the black. He DID hear, though, a discussion about Marsh going on ahead toward the ranch to make sure the route was good, and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.”
So just on this one point… Brendan has now ‘changed’ his ‘story’ from…
“Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there”
To…
“I had no idea they had moved out of the black”.
2. “Neither did anyone else. ”
Horseshit.
Brendan is in no position to state that as an absolute fact, in his book.
It means even author Stephan Talty didn’t ‘do his homework’.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes testified to ADOSH that he never had any doubts that Granite Mountain was ‘on the move’… out of the black… and that they were headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch… and there are many other ‘voices’ heard in radio captures which prove that others had the same information, BEFORE the men got trapped in the box canyon.
Actually… even without being aware of Cordes’ testimony… if this is what Brendan really still believes then I suppose that can be construed as proof that at NO TIME during those ‘huddles’ in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot that Brendan participated in did either SPGS1 Gary Cordes or TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel offer up what THEY (both) knew… and what we can HEAR them both ‘discussing’ in a ‘radio capture’… that Granite Mountain was most likely just WEST of the Boulder Springs Ranch just prior to their entrapment.
3. “The focus was on saving Yarnell and not getting burned up ourselves.”
Horseshit.
In the 45 minutes to an hour leading up to the deployment… the ONLY ‘focus’ was ‘evacuations’. Brendan was with Blue Ridge. There was absolutely NO ‘focus’ on Blue Ridge’s part to do anything to ‘save Yarnell’ in this timeframe. Blue Ridge was simply getting ‘off the fire’ and to safety at the Ranch House Restaurant and received no such ‘help save Yarnell’ assignment.
Even SPGS1 Gary Cordes ( responsible for the protection of Yarnell itself ) told ADOSH they ( he and fire command ) had already decided NOT to make any kind of effort to ‘save Yarnell’ once it was clear the fire was coming into town.
A = SPGS1 Gary Cordes…
———————————————————————————————–
1579 A: …after I did that I went down to the Ranch Restaurant like which is just up by
1580 Glenn Ilah there, and tied in with um, everybody. At that point I was making
1581 sure everybody, all the resources were in the safety zone and uh, because we
1582 had already made the determination that we were not gonna actively fight fire
1583 within the community ‘til it had pulsed through because of the, the high risk.
————————————————————————————————
“…we had already made the determination that we were not gonna actively
fight fire within the community”.
All that being said… maybe Brendan’s NEW statement of…
“The focus was on saving Yarnell and not getting burned up ourselves.”
…actually DOES indicate he still isn’t “telling everything he knows”… and that there WERE some ‘other plans’ that even Gary Cordes has refused to talk about.
Is it on Donut’s facebook or media outlets about him the lone survivor (eh hum…bullshit…cough…cough) doing a commercial?
I called and talked to Rusty at ADOT and led me to Prescott permitting and Richard said it was for a truck commercial May 3, 2016 for the Weaver Mountain highway 89-
The permit is not for a movie just a commercial-
Jason Henton replied to your photo links wwtktt…he said:
Yeah. The one with his back turned looks about right. Have to see the face.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on April 28, 2016 at 7:03 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Jason Henton replied to your photo links wwtktt…he said:
>> Yeah. The one with his back turned looks about right. Have to see the face.
Looks about ‘right’… for what reason?
Remind me again… who is this ‘bald FF’ you are trying to identify… and for what reason?
This is the part Sonny has not come forward with information and it was a dialect he had with Jason Henton on the safety officer that spoke about specifics and arctic air and hard to talk about it because the man drew it and I have been HOPING Sonny would chime in here being it was his talk not mine…but I will interview Jason soon as he is going to give us retardant drop samples from his 14 acres out by shrine-balucu-s&p area so we can start heavily researching why people keep dying
Reply to Charlie post on April 28, 2016 at 9:29 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Well the movie is here said Joy as she drove home to Congress last
>> night- cops and filming in action. I don’t know what the night part will
>> be, perhaps night time road block situations–people including even
>> the press were totally blocked out from going in except in certain
>> controlled instances.
Just a week or two ago ( on April 11, 2016 ), the New Mexico Film Board was all a-twitter and making announcements that the Kosinski “No Exit” movie about the Yarnell Disaster would be ‘filming’ as early as this June there in New Mexico.
Article Title: Granite Mountain Firefighter Movie to Film in New Mexico
Published by OHI On April 11, 2016
http://www.oneheadlightink.com/2016/04/11/granite-mountain-firefighter-movie-to-film-in-new-mexico/
From the article…
———————————————————————–
EXCLUSIVE: A fact-based feature film about the Granite Mountain Hotshots – the elite firefighter crew that perished in the Yarnell Hill wildfires of 2013, is scheduled to film in New Mexico this summer.
The film is based on the in-depth 2014 article about the tragedy , titled “No Exit,” written by Sean Flynn for GQ magazine.
Josh Brolin (No Country for Old Men, Sicario) and Miles Teller (Fantastic Four, Divergent) are set to star in the action/drama directed by Joseph Kosinski (Tron:Legacy, Oblivion). The film is expected to film in New Mexico beginning this June.
———————————————————————–
“A fact-based feature film”
We shall see.
Maybe in McDonuts dillysional version of reality… Should be stored in the fiction or fantasy section
Spell check… Dillusional
Reply to Gary Olson post on April 27, 2016 at 7:45 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I don’t know…I may have to rethink the whole Santos thing?
>> I just read her freebie and it really make me feel like I was there
>> while one of my heroes Eric Tarr did a job for us no one should even
>> have had to do just as the Blue Ridge Boys and the 3 Prescottiers
>> did after him. As I have said before…that task would have sent me to
>> me knees in grief and despair. So I might have to read her book and
>> pony up some money for it. Kyle Dickman can line up behind
>> Mr. McDonough to kiss my ass…I ain’t buyin’ theirs.
Buyer beware.
From even just the ‘freebies’ floating around from these TWO ( Count ’em, TWO ) tomes being ‘available for purchase’ this week… it looks like the TRUTH is going to take a BIG HIT this week.
Example: Even in the SANTOS PROLOGUE… she is trying to say that Brendan McDonough is the one who noticed his ‘trigger point’ was being met… and like a good little lookout… was then ‘warning’ Jesse Steed about what the fire was doing.
Total horseshit.
Even in Brendan’s testimony to Bill Gabbert at Wildfire today, he admits that it was Jesse Steed himself who INFORMED Brendan… “it’s time for you to get the fuck out of there”.
Ditto for Brendan’s testimony to ADOSH.
At NO TIME was ‘lookout Brendan’ the one who was WARNING anyone about anything.
It was only through his converstations with Jesse Steed that Brendan was told to ‘get the fuck out of there’.
That’s okay. Books and movies can come and go.
The TRUTH will survive.
Well the movie is here said Joy as she drove home to Congress last night- cops and filming in action. I don’t know what the night part will be, perhaps night time road block situations–people including even the press were totally blocked out from going in except in certain controlled instances.
Locals were convinced the press was their enemy, yet it was the press that brought in millions in aid. I wanted the press in badly since I knew their presence would expose a lot of bull shit we were being fed by the martial law experts. I was near arrested since Joy and I were the first back from evacuation, having slept on a picnic table at Mountainaire. Mountainaire is just south a mile from where you turn west off 89 to a 3 mile road to Peeples Valley community. From Mountainair it is just 3 miles more south to Yarnell and the roadblock we were first in line and then detained because I allowed an Arizona Republic reporter to tie a $5000 camera to my old Chevy station wagon and was going to give the world a look at the main street of Yarnell because the press was still forbidden to go in. Shit what happened to the freedom of press and speech. But the locals were ignorant enough to give away that right, and I mean constitutional right, so their burnt homes would not be shown to the world and so a lot of the actual truth of this thing was denied the world.
So the state of Arizona now went further and restricted areas only to a few individuals on half a section of state land, took our tax money to pay all this, yet no one but a privileged few can go on that half section. What are they hiding? There is no government secret there–only disaster facts that should be shown to every tax payer that has paid millions on because this fire so badly managed. Yet the living wild land fire fighter has not gotten justice by being allowed the truth of how those men got killed by the errors in the system that beg to be corrected.
Those too that have suffered in Yarnell have not gotten justice either. People are worried about suits and some being prosecuted for these errors, but what about justice being done here. Us tax payers footed the bill, yet we are denied the right to view the situation. There are people on their death beds at this very moment and if you make the count of 84 locals dead since the fire and counting, then you see there is more than the 19 involved in this shameful management of a wild land fire. The 230,000 gallons of retardant is brushed off as inert chemical warfare against wild fires. Well if you want to kill off fish in rivers and elderly with health issues then dump it in a river or next to a retirement town. It does its deadly work quickly in cases of fish and elderly.
Joy says that there is a picture of my old Chevy and us lying there waiting to get into Yarnell again in the Arizona Republic in yesterday’s issue. It is a reminder of how badly this thing went–how we had to have a fucking green card like an illegal Mexican to get back to our residences. How eroded this system has become and how so many Americans are willing to trade off their basic rights to depend on a flawed system that needs cleaning up on the inside. This place looked more like a prison camp than a community and that should not be same as that wild fire should have been taken care of early so the bunglers did not have to kill the 19.
Nor should any where that is state land be restricted to the tax payer that pays these public servants to work for them. And sadly, people that are professionals in wild land fire fighting death investigations are restricted from the area not to mention wild land fire fighters, former wild land supervisors and other concerned tax paying citizens that by right should be allowed to walk those lands and see the many errors that caused the deaths of the 19.
Joy and I last night discussed posting a registered letter we sent to the state a week or so ago with questions pertinent to this disaster. She is looking it up in my emails, since we had sent it out to many concerned people that post on this site–as well as many officials, media people, including JD. So today if she has not already posted it the questions are out there. It will be interesting to see how they are answered after watching the way this investigation has been handled to cover the tracks of the mismanagement of this fire.
I like the idea that Turbyfill and Pfingston were attempting to get more of the truth about the cause of the death of their loved ones that they know is hidden by actually attending a staff ride to get important questions answered. Obviously it did not happen. Did Amanda go along on that ride?
Dr. Putnam told me there are two types of people concerning wanting to know about the truth of the deaths of their loved. One class just accepts what they are officially told and does not want to hear anymore–just go on with life and accept the stories made to appease their ears. Then there is the people (myself included) that wants to know the real truth, not the SAIR version or anything that blights the truth.
I see myself in the latter category. When my son was wrapped up in a huge boat wench and his arm torn loose from his body I had no qualms for people to know how, why, and what caused this and eventually caused his death. It is hard to imagine the immense pain he suffered from that, but then he escaped death and despite that pain lasted some years even to attend an Arizona University as a straight A student in Chemical Engineering. He was not a whiner and that his end came from meds or whether a room mate who heard his last gulping breaths, but never bothered to take action killed him, I never got closure. The eight year room mate disappeared soon after but the Chandler police never followed up or considered it a possible homicide. Still the truth remains clouded for me.
Certainly there is much pain that the loved ones had here. But to hide any of the facts to protect reputations is fallacy and injustice to the living wild land fire fighter. To nullify their needs for private interests as we have seen in the case of the Yarnell 19 only contributes to the negligence and wrongful actions that will continue to kill wild land firefighters, just as my son who was working as an underwater welder had bosses who willifully neglected taking care of faulty equipment. Those young firefighters were killed by the negligence and orders from their bosses, and Steed and Marsh are not the only ones that need to be on the blame chart. That line of neglect goes beyond those two bosses and those that ordered their demise to even to those at Yarnell, Peeples Valley, and Congress fire departments that failed to do due diligence to duty.
So go ahead and whine and cover the facts if that is your way. But Turbyfill and Pfingston are doing the right thing for their sons and for the future wild land fire fighter–fighting for the truth that will win out.
The one thing that just keeps pissing me off with all the References to Yarnell and Granit Mountain HS.
When news media and book sales start with———-
THE LARGEST FIRE FIGHTER FATALITIES SINCE 9/11…………..
There is a hell of a difference between Wild Land Fire Fatalities and Structure Fire Fatalities. Actually there are more Structure Fire Fatalities per year than Wild Land Fire.
My frustration is they do not seperiate the difference between the TWO.
Actually The Yarnell Hill Fire was the Largest Wild Land Fire Fatalities since
The Rattle Snake Fire in 1953 which held that terrible distinction for 60 years.
15 Wild Land Fire Fighters died there. 14 on South Canyon and 12 on the Loop Fire.
Granted it was a horrible loss of NYC Fire Fighters on 9/11 and it stands on its own.
Yarnell will stand I hope for a Hundred years as the worst Wild Land Fire Fighter
Loss in Wild Land Fire Fighting History.
The 1910 northern Idaho Fires clamed more citizens than actual Fire Fighters or Individuals from Crews.
Any way they are never included in statistics together.
Wild Land Fires
Structure Fires
Two completely different suppression organizations. Two totally different environments. Two totally different functions.
Bob,
Not anymore, Bob. Structural/Wildland – same thing. It’s “All Hazard.” Hence the blending of two cultures into one………enter the Hybrid Firefighter.
Before your heart rate becomes elevated, I agree with you.
Woodsman
I still say it is seperiate the WLFF are not trained to fight actual structure fires. While the structure FF are trained to fight wild fires but some day it will happen in those areas where the small mountain communities will have Federal FF trained and outfitted to suppress Structures.
Back in my day we responded to a lot of house/cabin fires we always said we could save the foundation as long as the 500 galleons held out.
we just squirted water and turned off the Propane tank never got there to do any thing else. We weren’t equipped to any way.
Yes, thank you. I HAVE re-thought my position and I don;t need to read any more bullshit (or feel good fantasy) about the Yarnell Hill Fire even though she did right by Eric Tarr…so her book is back on my banned list of fiction.
As long as I am taking a break from my arduous book writing after finishing my first paragraph…hey Rome wasn’t built in a day….and my problem is I get easily distracted….HEY, A BLUE CAR JUST DROVE PAST MY HOUSE! VERY COOL., anyway, forgive me I digress after reading the teaser the other day from Mr. McDonough’s book it seems to me that unless there are some major changes in how they do the movie…THE FUCKING MOVIE IS GOING TO BE ABOUT HIM! Not Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed or the other 17 who died as heroes, the movie is going to be about one man who was too hung over to do his job as a grunt which was cut line so they put him up on a hill so they didn’t have to listen to him whine and then he almost kills himself by looking for a place to crawl into his WF Death Shroud when Brian Frisby accidentally finds him and saves him!
After a lifetime of waiting for hotshots to get some recognition for the work they have done for decades in obsurity, we now have Mr. McDonough as our Gold Standard by which all other hotshots are now judged, past present and future and that includes the rest of the GMIHC because God had a different plan for the rest of them but Mr. McDonough was apparently encouraged by God to drink more than the rest of them the night before so he was seperated in God’s master plan for the universe from those who were supposed to die because God has specail plans for Mr. McDonough in the future…I guess like spending the rest of his life showing the world what a REAL hotshot looks like! RTS is RIGHT! God does move in mysterious ways, his wonders are ours to witness!
Oh…and one more thing before I start on my second paragraph of the book I will never finish, just as soon as I finish listening to Donald Trump tell us all how he is going to make American Great Again, I just want to know when America stopped being Great. I missed that memo.
Anyway…back on track. The TRUTH may indeed survive, but right now you have to admit that it is on life support and a lot of people are circling its hospital bed with pillows in their hands. So…
Joy did pre- order Brendan’s book, I tried to cancel but it was too late–so OK Gary we are on the same page. But then maybe it is worth the $16 for entraining bull shit off the fiction shelf- I told Joy you ought to have waited a while since it would be up for a penny on Amazon in a short time if you don’t mind the $3.99 shipping charge.
I am not going to take it to a book signing. But then never say never; because, probably Joy bought that fiction so she could take it to a signing and to see if she could get some questions answered–and she can do a good job there.
Reply to gizmo post on April 27, 2016 at 5:11 pm
>> gizmo said…
>>
>> Curious where and how you verified this statement you’ve made many,
>> many times here wtktt:
>>
>> “Jesse Steed’s first botched-MAYDAY call about being “in front of the flaming front”
>> would not take place for just 1 mnute shy of one full HOUR after that ( at 4:39 PM ).”
>>
>> Have you had voices verified from family that this first call out for help is Jesse?
Me, personally?… No.
But even before we reached a ‘consensus’ here in this ongoing discussion that the voice that first reports “We are in front of the flaming front” is, indeed, a ‘match’ for other known recordings of Jesse’s Steed’s voice… other people who DID have DIRECT access to ‘family members’ ( and investigators ) were also reporting it as a FACT.
See below.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Why do you believe the first call out voice is Jesse? Or are you using the baseless
>> reason that since Jesse was the acting Supt that day he would logically be the
>> only one to call to the Bravo Unit?
Again… see below… but I wouldn’t ( myself ) describe the reason you just gave as ‘baseless’.
I think it’s very logical ( and just simply makes sense ) that if anyone was going to ‘break in’ on ‘Arizona 16’ and try to make EMERGENCY contact… that it would be the person actually in CHARGE of that group… whoever it was.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Just wondering since you speak in absolutes the majority of the time.
About a month after that original ‘Helmet Camera’ video was first released by Arizona Forestry in December of 2013 ( which we now know was video filename M2U00265 and was actually just 1 of 21 videos shot by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd, ALL of which had ALWAYS been in Arizona Forestry and the SAIT’s possession even long before the SAIR was published )… USA TODAY ran an article that was originally written by Dennis Wagner and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez of the ‘Arizona Republic’.
In that article ( Published January 23, 2014 ), there was no doubt in these Arizona Republic reporter’s minds that the voice we hear reporting “We are in front of the flaming front” belonged to Jesse Steed.
USA Today
Article Title: 2 experts dispute Arizona wildfire findings.
30-minute gap in communications likely wasn’t true, they say.
Published: by USA TODAY 12:25 p.m. EST January 23, 2014
Original article by: Dennis Wagner and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez ( Arizona Republic )
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/01/23/new-yarnell-hill-fire-recordings/4796501/
From that article…
———————————————————————————
Holly Neill uncovered background radio traffic among fire personnel on previously released video shot for an aerial firefighting study. The radio traffic is sometimes garbled and barely audible. In one segment, an indistinct voice — which Neill and Maclean contend is Marsh — said the Granite Mountain crew was “making their way down the escape route” toward the ranch.
That transmission occurred at 4:13 p.m., in the middle of the communication gap that the Serious Accident Investigation team identified.
According to a transcript of the voices provided by Neill and Maclean, an unidentified voice responded to Marsh, “Copy, working their way down into the structures.”
According to Wildfire Today, another unidentified voice asked, “… (Are you) on the escape route with Granite Mountain right now?”
Neill and Maclean believe Marsh responded, “Nah, I’m at the house where we’re gonna jump out at.”
Minutes later, an unidentified voice said, “… appreciate it if you could go a little faster, but you’re the supervisor.”
A voice Neill and Maclean believe was Marsh answered that the Granite Mountain Hotshots were “coming down from the heel of the fire.” By that time, however, severe monsoon winds had reversed the blaze, so crew members were hiking directly into its path.
Nine minutes later, Granite Mountain’s acting crew chief, Jesse Steed, put out an emergency call: “We are in front of the flaming front!”
——————————————————————————————-
Notice this ‘declaration’ in that January 23, 2014 USA TODAY article…
——————————————————————————————–
Nine minutes later, Granite Mountain’s acting crew chief, Jesse Steed,
put out an emergency call: “We are in front of the flaming front!”
——————————————————————————————–
The article does not SAY whether Dennis Wagner and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez of the ‘Arizona Republic’ had gotten a ‘confirmation’ on this before printing it as a FACT… but it is known that both Wagner and Sanchez DID have access to ‘family members’ if they needed things confirmed… as well as access to people involved in the ‘investigation’ itself.
SIDENOTE: After some ‘pushback’ from others listening to the same audio recordings, Holly Neill and John Maclean subsequently admitted that the phrase “I’m at the house” only *may* have been present in one of the transmissions… and that whatever is being said there does not constitute solid evidence that Eric Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch in advance of Jesse Steed and the GM crew.
However… the original SAIR actually DID always have a single mysterious line in it ( on PDF page 30 ) which DID suggest that Marsh was already ‘scouting ahead’ towards the Boulder Springs Ranch even as Brendan was leaving his lookout mound.
On PDF page 30 of the SAIR…
At this point in the narrative, the SAIR is describing what appears to be information obtained from their interview with Brendan McDonough about what Brendan ‘believed’ Eric Marsh was ALREADY doing ( scouting something ) even as Brendan was leaving his lookout mound right around 3:36 PM…
————————————————————————
As GM Lookout departs ( his lookout position ), he believes the crew
is in the black and watching the fire, and DIVS A is scouting.
————————————————————————
That was the end of the paragraph in the SAIR… and it offered no explanation along with that published statement regarding WHAT Eric Marsh might have already been ‘scouting’ circa 3:36 PM.
This ‘suggestion’ that Eric Marsh really was ‘scouting ahead’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch was eventually VERIFIED by Brendan McDonough in his PUBLIC interview with Bill Gabbert at Wildfire Today on August 31, 2015.
————————————————————————-
Bill Gabbert asked Brendan…
Do you know why the crew left the safety of a previously burned “black” area and decided to walk through unburned brush toward the ranch?
“I have no clue,” says McDonough. “I know they were asked to come to Yarnell if it was possible and Eric said, ‘No, we are going to stay here in the black.’ And for some reason they left.”
He ( McDonough ) adds that he didn’t hear a radio conversation between the two about why the crew left the black. He DID HEAR, though, a discussion about Marsh GOING ON AHEAD toward the ranch to make sure the route was good, and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.
————————————————————————-
** OTHER PROOF IT IS JESSE’S VOICE
Way back when, we reached our own ‘consensus’ here in this ongoing discussion that it almost had to be Jesse speaking there… because there is no question that it simply SOUNDS like him.
Every voice has ‘qualities’ like tenor, timbre, pitch, placement, cadence, etc. etc.
If you listen to ANY known recordings of Jesse Steed’s voice… the voice heard saying “We are in front of the flaming front” is almost a perfect match. There are ‘voice qualities’ there that are identifiable, even if the caller was ‘yelling’ during that first radio call.
** KNOWN RECORDINGS OF JESSE STEED’S VOICE
The Christopher MacKenzie videos ( which I’m sure you are aware of ) contain a good audio sample of Jesse speaking THAT DAY… and less than an hour before he would lose his life.
There is another VERY good sample of Jesse’s voice to use to compare to what is heard in the ‘Helmet Cam’ video. It comes from a VIDEO INTERVIEW that Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ( and other GM Hotshots ) did with the local affiliated ‘The Prescott Daily Courier’ back in 2010.
That complete VIDEO INTERVIEW with Marsh and Steed is a PUBLIC VIDEO that is still sitting here on YouTube…
YouTube Video Title: 2010 Granite Mountain Hotshots train hard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKT6TnRPMy4
At +20 seconds – Eric Marsh starts narrating the video
At +1:44 thru +2:42 – Jesse Steed is now narrating the video and speaks for 58 seconds.
Again… just compare Jesse’s VOICE to what is heard at start of the ‘Helmet Cam’ video.
If that isn’t Jesse Steed actually saying “We are in front of the flaming front”… it is someone who simply SOUNDS almost EXACTLY like him.
All of the above being said…
Are you trying to say that you ( personally ) do NOT believe that is actually Jesse Steed breaking in on Arizona 16 with that first MAYDAY call?
If you don’t think it’s Steed… then WHO do YOU think is speaking there?
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Do you believe its possible that the first call out and
>> the second call out are different voices?
That is not only ‘possible’… it’s a FACT.
The voice being heard in the second ‘callout’ is most definitely NOT the same voice as is heard in the intial “We are in front of the flaming front” callout.
That SECOND voice is most likely Robert Caldwell… and this definitely seems to have been CONFIRMED ( in PUBLIC ) by a ‘family member’.
Just after the original video was published… Amanda Marsh was commenting about how horrible she thought it was that anyone but ‘family members’ would ever be allowed to hear this audio… and Laure McKee Sutton left a public comment confirming that she hears Robert Caldwell’s voice in the recording(s).
Laurie McKee Sutton is Grant Quinn McKee’s sister.
Grant Quinn McKee is one of the GM Hotshots that died and the son of Marcia McKee.
Grant McKee and Robert Caldwell were cousins, and it was Robert Caldwell himself who got Grant the ‘job’ on the GM crew for the 2013 fire season.
So not only is Laurie McKee Sutton related to the Hotshot Grant McKee, she is ALSO related to GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell.
So it stands to reason Laure McKee Sutton would know VERY WELL what Robert Caldwell’s voice ‘sounded like’.
Here is the actual original PUBLIC comment that Laurie McKee Sutton made on Amanda Marsh’s Facebook page just after the video/audio was released, in which she CONFIRMS she is hearing Robert Caldwell’s voice in the MAYDAY calls…
——————————————————————————————-
Public Facebook comment posted by: Laurie McKee Sutton – December, 2013
Amanda I totally relate – Robert’s voice is on there too – It is not how we
want to remember him – It is so painful – Thank you for saying how I
feel – love ya soul sister xoxox
———————————————————————————————
All of this was discussed at length in a prior thread as part of this ongoing discussion back in December of 2013, right after the original ‘Helmet Cam’ video was released. I’ll post a ‘jumplink’ to that prior discussion as a ‘Reply’ to this posting.
Wow…very detailed.
Sent a few the FILMING IN PROCESS next four miles sign…night scenes…so the stars in the sky are not the only stars out…official signs are posted going up and down yarnell hill.
Maybe time for desert walker to go take a night hike and see what can they film out there at night? The area they are in I hope the get the glimpse of the coatmundi and ringtail…they are fun…night…
The New Mexico film Board had already announced ( with some excitement ) that THEY think the people gagging to do a the ‘film’ have been scouting ‘locations’ there in New Mexico for the Kosinksi/Director film “No exit”…but it still stands to reason that if they are going ahead with the project… they will need to do SOME of the ‘filming’ in the Yarnell area itself.
We shall see.
Followup… the original ‘discussion’ of the proof that Robert Caldwell is heard in the original ‘Helmet Cam’ video…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/state-forestry-divison-fined-nearly-560000-for-mistakes-in-managing-yarnell-hill-fire-that-killed-19-hotshots/#comment-6024
And just ‘some’ of the ‘content’ of that orginal ‘discussion’….
————————————————————————————-
On December 18, 2013 at 1:58 am, WTKTT posted…
** IS ROBERT CALDWELL’S VOICE ACTUALLY
** RECORDED IN THE ‘LAST MOMENTS’ VIDEO/AUDIO?
A possibly very significant piece of new information appeared
just last night and it spurred some interesting discussion
today… so for the sake of recording more detail… here is
the exact ‘piece of evidence’ that ( might have ) emerged.
A standard Facebook ‘group’ comment from Amanda Marsh
about how painful it was to hear Eric’s voice on the video
was posted last evening.
That original post from Amanda Marsh is here…
https://www.facebook.com/groups/595705917126991/permalink/677629595601289/
The beginning of Amanda Marsh’s post reads…
>> In Memory of Our Good Friend, Eric Marsh
>> Its very disturbing to me and hurtful to know that people can
>> hear Eric’s stressed, scared voice on the radio. How sad that
>> people, other than family and fire officials feel the need to listen
>> to the last transmissions. The more energy we put towards
>> this, it just fuels… (More)…
That ‘letter’ was then ‘replicated’ on another Facebook page which is here…
19 Prescott Firefighter’s Last Alarm
13,391 likes · 1,142 talking about this
https://www.facebook.com/PrescottFallenFirefighters
People started to comment back to Amanda on THAT page
and this is the exact text of just ONE of the 45 or so
comments that appeared…
Laurie McKee Sutton
Amanda I totally relate – Robert’s voice is on there too – It is not how we
want to remember him – It is so painful – Thank you for saying how I
feel – love ya soul sister xoxox
Laurie McKee Sutton is Grant Quinn McKee’s sister.
Grant Quinn McKee is one of the GM Hotshots that died
and the son of Marcia McKee… who has the multi-million
dollar wrongful death suit already filed.
The ‘Robert’ being referred to in her comment must be GM
Hotshot Robert E. Caldwell. He was the only ‘Robert’ on the GM crew.
Claire and Robert Caldwell were in Laurie McKee Sutton’s ‘Friend’ list on Facebook.
Prescott Daily Courier article with photo of Linda Caldwell,
Grant Quinn McKee, and Laurie Sutton all running a store
together in Prescott back in 2009…
http://www.dcourier.com/Main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=71243
So not only is Laurie McKee Sutton related to the Hotshot Grant McKee,
she appears to ALSO be related to GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell.
So… it would stand to reason that she knew Robert’s voice VERY well.
————————————————————————————-
And just ‘some’ of the ‘content’ of that orginal ‘discussion’….
————————————————————————————-
On December 18, 2013 at 1:58 am, WTKTT posted…
** IS ROBERT CALDWELL’S VOICE ACTUALLY
** RECORDED IN THE ‘LAST MOMENTS’ VIDEO/AUDIO?
A possibly very significant piece of new information appeared
just last night and it spurred some interesting discussion
today… so for the sake of recording more detail… here is
the exact ‘piece of evidence’ that ( might have ) emerged.
A standard Facebook ‘group’ comment from Amanda Marsh
about how painful it was to hear Eric’s voice on the video
was posted last evening.
That original post from Amanda Marsh is here…
https://www.facebook.com/groups/595705917126991/permalink/677629595601289/
( Continued next ‘Reply’ due to number of ‘links’ involved )…
( Continued from previous ‘Reply’ due to number of ‘links’ involved )…
The beginning of Amanda Marsh’s post reads…
>> In Memory of Our Good Friend, Eric Marsh
>> Its very disturbing to me and hurtful to know that people can
>> hear Eric’s stressed, scared voice on the radio. How sad that
>> people, other than family and fire officials feel the need to listen
>> to the last transmissions. The more energy we put towards
>> this, it just fuels… (More)…
That ‘letter’ was then ‘replicated’ on another Facebook page which is here…
19 Prescott Firefighter’s Last Alarm
13,391 likes · 1,142 talking about this
https://www.facebook.com/PrescottFallenFirefighters
People started to comment back to Amanda on THAT page
and this is the exact text of just ONE of the 45 or so
comments that appeared…
Laurie McKee Sutton
Amanda I totally relate – Robert’s voice is on there too – It is not how we
want to remember him – It is so painful – Thank you for saying how I
feel – love ya soul sister xoxox
Laurie McKee Sutton is Grant Quinn McKee’s sister.
Grant Quinn McKee is one of the GM Hotshots that died
and the son of Marcia McKee… who has the multi-million
dollar wrongful death suit already filed.
The ‘Robert’ being referred to in her comment must be GM
Hotshot Robert E. Caldwell. He was the only ‘Robert’ on the GM crew.
Claire and Robert Caldwell were in Laurie McKee Sutton’s ‘Friend’ list on Facebook.
Prescott Daily Courier article with photo of Linda Caldwell,
Grant Quinn McKee, and Laurie Sutton all running a store
together in Prescott back in 2009…
http://www.dcourier.com/Main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=71243
So not only is Laurie McKee Sutton related to the Hotshot Grant McKee,
she appears to ALSO be related to GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell.
So… it would stand to reason that she knew Robert’s voice VERY well.
————————————————————————————-
I’m not disagreeing there are three different voices in that helmet cam, it’s the first two voices that we aren’t quite sure who’s is who’s, agree? Yes, I do realize this has all been discussed on a past thread and the issue remains the same. Speaking in absolutes, making definitive statements and actually correcting people about things that you don’t even know to be 100% true because you haven’t made verifications yourself, that doesn’t help with keeping the facts as facts.
Yvonne and Dennis’ article does not confirm anything as far as voice verification, this is sloppy journalism and forming a consensus here using an article in the paper as a source is crap. And as far as the Maclean deal, well at least its admitted when they may have been mistaken about what they interpreted in the verbiage on the audio. Although I still hear the word house.
I see it as irresponsible to speak in such absolutes is all, and you can tell me to piss off, it’d be fine but I still think humility here in what is posted is a must. Especially with crap on crap coming out in books soon.
Did you do what I suggested up above?
Just LISTEN ( yourself ) to the known recordings of Jesse Steed’s voice… and compare them to the person who says “We are in front of the flaming front”.
I ( me, personally, your mileage may vary ) believe the first ‘speaker’ in that emergency radio sequence is, in fact, Jesse Steed.
And until someone can PROVE it is NOT… that is what I ( me, personally, your mileage may vary ) will continue to believe.
When looking at things like this… it is, in fact, OKAY to arrive at a ‘consensus’ until more evidence comes to light. A ‘consensus’ never implies ‘total agreement’. A ‘consensus’ just means “given the (currently) available evidence… it is highly likely that a certain something is, most likely, TRUE”.
As far as using media articles as sources… I don’t know for sure if Sanchez verified her statement with anyone who knew Jesse Steed well enough to identify his voice… but you ( also ) can’t say for sure that she did NOT.
My ‘Regardless’ up above implied that even without this ‘other evidence’… there are existing recordings of Steed’s voice you can listen to… and you can make up your own mind whether YOU think that is ‘him’… or not.
Again… I’d be interested to hear YOUR ‘conclusions’ about WHO is speaking WHEN in that ‘Helmet Cam’ video.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/04/23/granite-mountain-hotshot-brandan-mcdonough-book-yarnell-fire/83404270/
was that the same article wwtktt?
Yes. No matter how many times they keep changing the TITLE of the article and then trying to make it appear it has been ‘newly published’… the URL LINK to the article ( and their own ‘Article ID’ ) remains exactly the same as the original article published April 23, 2016.
Just look at this information in the URL…
It’s always the same no matter how many times they change the TITLE, including the misspelling of Brendan’s first name ( they think it is Brandon )…
Article ID: 83404270
Date of original publication: 2016/04/23 ( April 23, 2016 )
Article name: granite-mountain-hotshot-brandan-mcdonough-book-yarnell-fire
http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2016/04/25/the-fire-line-book
Since 4-20-16 I have been placing all information out there where it needs to be placed. Arizona Forestry are not the only ones who have been notified. On 4-25-16, Bill Boyd of Public Affairs and Legislature Officer Arizona State Forestry they will share to me the needed information and the SAIR and the settlement agreement are the official public documents regarding the YHF- any and all evidence that Forestry has in its custody has been made public-
I have been through many horrible tragedies—horrible and this was may it be the worst in wild land firefighting community is not the worst tragedy-
People ask how can you as a simple ol housewife be a voice for another-
just walk away—move along—nothing to see here.
When you place yourself on a ship that due to negligence is about to sink or you are on a plane that is being hi-jacked—are you going to just say the Lord’s prayer or are you going to do everything in your might and power to do the right thing and fight back to make sure and to ENSURE change takes place.
I LOVE A R I Z O N A!
Yet some of the people running the show are not doing their job right to ensure safety matters so this never happened again and it did…Twisp fire….it has to stop. I am not a facebook person…so if any person can send me a direct link where I don’t have to sign in to look at a photo please do so for Marty Cole and if Marty Cole is not the bald headed burley man who claimed to be safety officer on YHF that YOU burley man tld Jason that the higher ups did not head your advice of the arctic air/fire flow and what happened as YOU saw it…the man that spoke to Jason Henton of Chino Valley at TDK welding who Jason was a former legion 40 man…this burley man is described to look like the younger guy on Pawn Stars- HOW many people are going to keep sitting enjoying the sunshine when 19 mens lives are gone forever plus alot died since…when is time for you to SPEAK UP!
I am busy right now placing all information in the right spots behind the scenes and if the truth does not come out—WHY ain’t the state or Joy H. or Knapp subponea Dr. Ted Putnam on this new public information that was on John Dougherty’s article.
Answers please…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on April 27, 2016 at 12:52 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I am not a facebook person…so if any person can send me a
>> direct link where I don’t have to sign in to look at a photo please
>> do so for Marty Cole
That PUBLIC article in the ‘Chino Valley Review’ ( posted the other day ) has a good picture of Marty ( Martin ) Cole, and no LOGIN is required…
The Chino Valley Review
Article Title: Into the heat with my dad.
Published: 6/15/2011 by Diane DeHamer ( Feature Writer )
http://cvrnews.com/main.asp?SectionID=74&SubSectionID=114&ArticleID=53876
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> On 4-25-16, Bill Boyd of Public Affairs and Legislature Officer Arizona
>> State Forestry they will share to me the needed information and the
>> SAIR and the settlement agreement are the official public documents
>> regarding the YHF- any and all evidence that Forestry has in its
>> custody has been made public-
That remains ‘not credible’… and here is just ONE ( good ) example why…
What about all the evidence they collected from Bob Brandon and the other Peeples Valley firefighters, just 48 hours after the tragedy?
NONE of that has ever seen the ‘light of day’.
Testimony from Bob Brandon, in his OWN words, with no media person ‘filtering’ the information…
The Yarnell Hill Recovery Group
Our Stories – Bob Brandon
http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/os_bob_brandon.html
Peeples Valley Firefighter Bob Brandon’s own words…
————————————————————————————————
My job ( on Sunday at the Yarnell Hill Fire ) was to map out the safety zone and send a lookout up on top of Boulder Mountain so we would have a zone to get back to and a lookout to tell them if anything starts going bad.
Probably mid-afternoon, the bulldozer came rambling through the woods. It kind of looked like Jurasic Park, knocking down trees, clearing a roadway. When it arrived at our location, I was just sitting by my tanker taking pictures of it because it was just kind of an awesome site.
When he pushed though the woods and got to our location, all of a sudden, he turned around, did a 180 and took off. He never finished the roadway he was supposed to do for us.
We were confused because now we had to finish it by ourselves.
We looked up behind Boulder Mountain and we noticed that the fire was standing straight up, right behind Boulder Mountain about 100 feet high. And we’re thinking, That’s not right. because the fire was way north of us, clear up to Peeples Valley.
As the sky started to darken, we were getting really nervous about what was going on. Well the Hot Shots from Blue Ridge came running out of the woods, and I mean just as fast as they could go, and this was heavy forest. They just came running out of the woods, jumped in their trucks and left. And I’m thinking, Wait a minute. They’re professionals. We do this on a volunteer basis, so what aren’t we seeing?
I had an alarm that we had set up. I was going to turn the siren on and start pressing the siren so they could hear us, and that meant to abandon and come back and we’ll get out. Well, when I started the alarm, the Incident Commander for our area came pulling up, and he said, “I want you to get these trucks out of here.”
I says, “I can’t do that.”
He said, “You have to do it now.”
And I said, “No. There’s six men still like a mile out into the forest and they need to come back to this safe zone, because this is where they know it is.”
And he said, “No. I’m telling you to leave now.”
I was fortunate enough that I had a camera in my jumper. So I was taking pictures all the time, any time I had a spare moment. And I took a picture of the slurry bomber that was actually driving right for what we later found out were the fallen firefighters.
We got up the next day and went back to the Ranch House, which was our sector, and they told us what they’d like for us to do was to drive down into Glen Ilah. They gave us different roads we were supposed to go in on and put out whatever we could to keep the fire from spreading any farther because there appeared to be some houses that hadn’t burned.
We spent the day putting out fires all over in the west end of Glen Ilah.
Our other men, two of the other firefighters from Peeples Valley, went in with the team to where the 19 firefighters passed away. And they were basically fire suppression up to the Helms house so the investigation could go in and take care of it. So they actually had an assignment for that day to put out little trees and bushes and things like that so they could actually get into that location.
The next day ( July 2 ) they took us in and debriefed us. This was two days after the incident with the 19. They went through and looked at my pictures and took a flash card of them. And I don’t know what they did with them, but it was pretty good because my pictures had timelines on them, so they could see what happened at what time.
Then they took information off our cellphones because that’s how we talked to, texted, each other. And those all had timelines on them, too. What time we were there. What time we were aware that the fire was about to overtake us. What time we got out. And some of the texts about whether we were safe.
————————————————————————————————
NOTICE that Bob Brandon definitely says he was ‘taking pictures’ of the bulldozer that was pushing line there near the Youth Camp at the end of Shrine Road. He also specifically says he was (quote) “taking pictures ALL the time… ANY TIME I had a spare moment”.
That means that Bob Brandon alone took a LOT of pictures that day.
Perhaps even some ‘videos’.
So these are the relevant paragraphs…
————————————————————————————————
The next day ( July 2 ) they took us in and debriefed us. This was two days after the incident with the 19. They went through and looked at my pictures and took a flash card of them. And I don’t know what they did with them, but it was pretty good because my pictures had timelines on them, so they could see what happened at what time.
Then they took information off our cellphones because that’s how we talked to, texted, each other. And those all had timelines on them, too. What time we were there. What time we were aware that the fire was about to overtake us. What time we got out. And some of the texts about whether we were safe.
————————————————————————————————
Bob Brandon specifically says that ‘they’ took an entire ‘flash card’ away with them containing copies of ALL his photos ( and perhaps videos )… and it can be assumed ‘they’ did the same thing for the other Peeples Valley FFs as well, if THEY happened to have any photos ( or videos ).
He also specifically says his photos alone had ‘good timelines’ on them, ‘so they could see what happened at what time’.
Then he also specifically describes ‘them’ taking other ‘information’ off ALL of their cellphones such as copies of timestamped ‘text’ messages and perhaps ‘call logs’.
If there were also any VIDEOS retrieved as ‘evidence’ from ANY of these Peeples Valley Firefighters… there is a good chance that they ( like so many other videos taken that day ) *might* have additional background radio traffic captures that haven’t been heard yet.
NONE of this EVIDENCE collected from ALL of the Peeples Valley Firefighters just 48 hours after the incident has ever seen the ‘light of day’.
And keep in mind that this evidence was ‘collected’ just 48 hours after the tragedy.
The SAIT hadn’t even been fully formed yet, or received its ‘delegation of authority’.
YCSO was not ‘going around collecting evidence’ from firefighters.
ADOSH would not even attempt to interview any of the Peeples Valley Firefighters for more than a month after the tragedy.
So that leave ‘Arizona Forestry’ as being the ‘they’ who Bob Brandon says ‘debriefed’ ALL of them ( and collected all this evidence and testimony ) just 48 hours after the tragedy.
Bob Brandon also said…
“And I don’t know what they ( the Arizona Forestry personnel ) did with them”
Neither do we, Bob. Neither do we.
I shared link with Jason Henton of Chino Valley at 3:18pm 4-27-16.
Jason confirmed MAYBE.
at 3:49pm he stated:
If Cole shaved his head maybe. that’s an old photo.
this guy was tall built bald.
That is update there. I will get to bottom of it.
I am like the folks on United 93 who Hollywood portrayed their fairytale much like the movie on YHF will be MADE UP but I am much like the folks on that hi-jacked plane—I ain’t gonna just sit down and not be a voice—these firefighters past and present deserve and NEED us to STAND UP for them…question to Gary O-
do you have the SAME evidence as Dr. Ted Putnam does? and as well directed to RTS? do you? if so, the time has come to share it— subpoena is an option if a must— Knapp has been notified of the people who may have this piece of evidence…I think it can be ruled out if you reply your answers here or in private—and I also will direct it to Bob Powers- same ?
You make one area easier but if no reply- that is fine – I am gathering it other ways.
at 5:07pm Jason said the man was 5’10”
at 5:07pm Jason stated the man was 5’10”
Numbers 32:23
speak up missing elements.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7b/a5/6e/7ba56e547696c6dde6379d93a7222a94.jpg
Joy,
I don’t have any information that I have not put on this blog. And as you know, I have not hesitated to put information here even though it has not been confirmed to be true, it is enough for me to believe it to be true just as long as I make that clear.
I have even said on this blog that no one should tell me anything if it comes with the stipulation that I can’t publicly disclose it here. I will protect a source up to and including a stay in county, but not what a source tells me. This is too important.
As you probably know, I still not have emotionally recovered from one of my heroes being so harsh with me so I am taking some time off from posting to heal spiritually. BUT…if I do learn anything in the meantime I will be back most ricky tick to report in.
I don’t know…I may have to rethink the whole Santos thing? I just read her freebie and it really make me feel like I was there while one of my heroes Eric Tarr did a job for us no one should eve have had to do just as the Blue Ridge Boys and the 3 Prescottiers did after him. As I have said before…that task would have sent me to me knees in grief and despair. So I might have to read her book and pony up some money for it. Kyle Dickman can line up behind Mr. McDonough to kiss my ass…I ain’t buyin’ theirs.
I do have some really good new for you however and it is not that I called Geico and I am going to save a ton of money on my car insurance. I have actually started writing the book I will never finish and a website to go with it, (I don’t need a website to go with a book I will never finish, I just like any excuse to build another website) “THE RISE OF THE HYBRID FIREFIGHTERS”
I am however, still reading this blog so keep em comin’ Robo Blogger and everyone else! I would offer WTKTT (and you too Joy, you are a gem) more encouragement than that, but as you all know…Artificial Intelligence AI’s do not respond to encouragement. You only have to toggle to on…or off, input 0’s or 1’s and they hum along, crunching out the data.
thank you Gary
Gary-
as long as we stand firm here- and have right view- right intentions- right speech- right action- right livelihood- right efforts- right concentration- and as Dr. Ted Putnam taught me the right mindfulness THE TRUTH will surface-
and do it with generosity, love and kindness…because beating someone down only gets you in the system anymore and more money in the cronies pockets—
Arizona State Forestry-
two things I want from you; START and GO ALL THE WAY…stop editing and omitting and start sharing the truths and go all the way—
from the depths of the earths; Salute to Gary; thank you for the quick reply- and enjoy the respite…God Bless our firefighters….retired ones too 🙂
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on April 27, 2016 at 5:08 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I shared link with Jason Henton of Chino Valley at 3:18pm 4-27-16.
>> Jason confirmed MAYBE, at 3:49pm he stated:
>> If Cole shaved his head maybe. that’s an old photo.
>> this guy was tall built bald.
It’s not likely that Marty Cole had ‘shaved his head’ prior to being present in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013. The link below to the photo of him taken at the 2013 Wildfire Incident and Management Academy, where he was acting as an ‘OPS’ for the AWIMA in March of 2013, shows him with a full head of hair just 90 days or so before the tragedy.
If someone is trying to say that some ‘bald firefighter’ was claiming to be a ‘Safety Office’ there in Yarnell on June 30, 2013… then I don’t know who that might be.
The only photos I know of from that day of a ‘bald FF’ were taken by Mr. Tom Story, in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot, shortly after the deployment.
Folder 2 of the Tom Story photos…
SAIT Dropbox / Photos and Video / Tom Story Photos / 201303_Yarnell Hill_02
Direct link to this online folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACUc_jX8WNPOrznsNSlYV-ea/Photos%20and%20Video/Tom%20Story%20Photos/201303_Yarnell_Hill_02?dl=0
In that folder… 21 rows down… 4th photo from the left…
Tom Story photo with filename: 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1677.JPG
There is a tall, bald FF standing on the left side of the photo, talking on what appears to be a cellphone ( and not a handheld radio ). He has a ‘chest harness’ on with the ‘X’ straps seen on his back.
Just in front of him is a guy with a ‘camo’ ballcap appearing to be copying something down that he is reading written on the hand of another FF with a yellow helmet and an orange ‘sidepack’ standing right next to him. That FF has a mustache.
That FF with the yellow helmet and the mustache *could* actually be Marty Cole, whose all-white Toyota Tacoma pickup with the camper top is already sitting there in the parking lot of the RHR with its door open over there on the right side of the same photograph, and just beyond the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV.
If you ‘Zoom In’ on that FF with the yellow helmet and the mustache, he certainly does look like Marty Cole.
The same FF with the ‘bald head’ and the ‘X’ straps on his back is not seen again in any other Tom Story photo until Story went to the back of the RHR parking lot and started taking photos from the staircase that led up to that old mobile home platform there at the back of the RHR parking lot.
But now we DO see this FF with the ‘bald head’ again… on the LEFT side of the photo and standing in that group of FFs gathered over by the ambulance.
Same folder, 24th row down, 4th photo from the left…
Tom Story photo with filename: 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1692.JPG
He is standing just to the left of the person with the black ‘ball cap’ that has already been tentatively identified as Dan Sullivan, the person Bryan Smith says is the one who actually rescued him and his cousin Peal Moore ( Rest in Peace ) that afternoon.
This same ‘FF with the bald head’ now remains visibile there near the ambulance on the left side of the photo in the next 10 Tom Story photos taken from the back of the RHR parking lot…
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1693.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1694.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1695.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1696.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1697.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1698.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1699.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1700.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1701.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1702.JPG
At no time, however, is this FF with the ‘bald head’ ever FACING the camera.
All we ever see is his ‘back’… and the ‘back’ of his ( bald ) head.
This FF with the ‘bald head’ has never been identified.
wwtktt said:
“It’s not likely that Marty Cole had ‘shaved his head’ prior to being present in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013. ”
no, his head was shaved when Jason spoke to him at Chino Valley TDK welding not on 6-30-13.
thank you wwtktt
I sent pics to Jason
**
** AZCENTRAL REPUBLISHES THEIR ARTICLE ABOUT BRENDAN’S BOOK
**
** BRENDAN DOES BELIEVE MARSH ‘BROUGHT’ THEM INTO THE CANYON
Kind of a weird thing just happended over at AZCENTRAL, and with regards to the ‘review’ of Brendan McDonough’s about-to-be-released book “My Lost Brothers”.
48 hours ago, AZCENTRAL published an ‘article’ about the book. Not sure you could call it an actual ‘book review’, but it did discuss the content of the book itself and things that McDonough is now saying ( and is still NOT saying ).
The TITLE on that article, as published 48 hours ago… was…
** Granite Mountain Hotshot tells a tale of loss and renewal.
But just this morning… AZCENTRAL has ‘republished’ that exact same article… but with a new TITLE. They have now CHANGED the TITLE to…
** Yarnell ‘lone survivor’: ‘I cried myself to sleep the first four or five nights’
Here are posts to both the FIRST publication of the article ( with the first title ), and now the SECOND publication with the brand new title about Brendan ‘crying himself to sleep’.
NOTICE that the URL ( link ) for BOTH publications is exactly identical, and even though the ‘date’ on the new published version with the new title says ‘April 25, 2016’ in the ‘copy’… the URL ( link ) for the article still has the same original April 23, 2016 ( /2016/04/23/ ) location for the article on the AZCENTRAL Server itself…
SIDENOTE: Yes… they really are still spelling Brendan McDonough’s name wrong in the URL, even after all this time and all their reporting on the Yarnell Hill Fire. They call him ‘Brandon’ instead of ‘Brendan’…
First publication… April 23, 2016…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Granite Mountain Hotshot tells a tale of loss and renewal
Published: 8:32 a.m. MST April 23, 2016 by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/04/23/granite-mountain-hotshot-brandan-mcdonough-book-yarnell-fire/83404270/
Second publication… ( with new title )… TODAY… April 25, 2016…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Yarnell ‘lone survivor’: ‘I cried myself to sleep the first four or five nights’
Published: 10:14 a.m. MST April 25, 2016 by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/04/23/granite-mountain-hotshot-brandan-mcdonough-book-yarnell-fire/83404270/
What makes this ‘weird’ is that if the ‘Arizona Republic’ ever has an ‘update’ to a previously published article ( at the exact same URL )… they would normally just add an ‘Update on’ field to the top of the article, but the article would still retain the original date of publication.
That’s not what they did here.
The SAME article with just a NEW TITLE now also appears to have a NEW ‘original date of publication’ TWO DAYS after when they actually published it.
As far as I can tell… the entire content of the original April 23, 2016 article is exactly the same as the ‘new’ article… except for the TITLE.
So it would appear the ONLY reason they did this was to just change the TITLE to something more ‘dramatic’ ( about a grown man crying himself to sleep ) in the hopes of catching more reader ‘eyeballs’.
That’s just weird.
** MCDONOUGH ADMITS MARSH MUST HAVE ‘BROUGHT’ THEM INTO THE CANYON
All of that being said… this article has a statement from McDonough in it that I didn’t catch the other day which is worth mentioning.
One of the ‘sections’ of this article is called ‘Still no answers’, and it is the part where AZCENTRAL is reporting things Brendan had to say to THEM in an interview that THEY did with him prior to publishing this article ( originally on April 23, 2016 )… on the ‘Friday’ before they first published it.
That’s the part where Brendan seems to now be calling both Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini *and* former Prescott Division Chief Darrell Willis LIARS regarding what they have previously reported.
Here is what that ‘Still no answers’ section said…
———————————————————————————–
Still no answers
Speculation abounds that McDonough knows more than he has disclosed about events that day. But McDonough says he doesn’t. He makes no mention of a conversation he purportedly had with Prescott’s former chief of wildland firefighting, in which he reputedly said he overheard a radio call in which the hotshots were ordered to leave their safe zone.
McDonough on Friday tried to end the speculation. “I did not hear that,” he said.
———————————————————————————–
So Brendan seems to now be DENYING he ever heard Marsh give anything that Brendan himself would characterize as an ‘ORDER’ to Jesse Steed to bring the men out of the safe black.
But in keeping with Brendan’s ongoing “ask me the right question and I *might* give you the right answer” gamesmanship…
He does not appear to be denying the original reports of an ‘argument’.
He ONLY appears to be denying hearing anything he would call an ‘ORDER’ that might have ‘ended’ the ‘argument’.
But in that SAME SECTION… Brendan also seemed to be talking about the day, about a month after the incident, when he accompanied the SAIT investigators out to the area.
That part of the article also appears to have actual ‘quotes’ from Brendan’s BOOK, because it uses the phrase ‘he wrote’ instead of ‘he said’.
That part of the article goes like this…
———————————————————————————–
About a month later ( after the tragedy ), McDonough stood on the rim of the deadly canyon as state forestry officials moved around below, where the men frantically tried to save themselves.
He walked down the slope, and touched the char-covered dirt where the investigators had been. He cut his hand on a piece of partly-melted glass, and after walking and sifting through the char, found 10 objects, pieces of his brothers, that included a coffee mug, a broken tool head and a small drip torch.
“I took each one and pictured the face of the man it belonged to and held that picture for a moment before relinquishing it,” he writes. “My hands were thick with the black soot that I knew contained trace amounts of the bodies of my friends.”
He wondered why they dropped into the canyon, and he “tried to get inside” Marsh’s head.
Marsh, he wrote, “would never have brought Granite Mountain into the canyon if he thought it presented a real danger to the men.”
———————————————————————————–
NOTICE these statement(s) from Brendan…
———————————————————————-
“He wondered why they dropped into the canyon, and he “tried to get inside” Marsh’s head Marsh, he wrote, “would never have brought Granite Mountain into the canyon if he thought it presented a real danger to the men.”
———————————————————————–
Specifically… THIS one statement…
“Marsh, he wrote, would never have BROUGHT the Granite Mountain Hotshots into the canyon…”.
So despite Brendan now saying that he ‘never heard’ anything resembling an ORDER coming from Marsh that would have ‘ended’ the (supposed) ‘argument’ that he and Jesse Steed were having over the move that Steed, apparently, considered ‘dangerous’…
…Brendan now also seems to be saying ( in his BOOK ) that there has never been ANY doubt in his mind that Eric Marsh ‘BROUGHT them into the canyon’.
As in… there really is no other way they would have ended up in that ‘canyon’ unless Eric Marsh ‘BROUGHT them there’… regardless of whether Brendan ( or anyone ) would characterize the ‘discussion’ as ending in any kind of ‘ORDER’, or not.
Right in line with the text from that brochure that the City of Prescott was handing out to new applicants for jobs with the Granite Mountain Hotshots…
“What it takes to be a Hotshot…”
“You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.”
So apparently… even in Brendan’s mind… there’s no way that Steed and the Crew could have possibly been where they were unless (quote) “Eric Marsh BROUGHT them there”.
And Brendan would know.
He ( and at least 3 other Blue Ridge Hotshots ) WERE ‘hearing’ that conversation on the GM intra-net radio channel that fateful day.
Your ability to diagnose this stuff with a lice comb is amazing (that’s a compliment by the way)
But having said that I do not take too much stock in a) reporters, as they tend to glamorize every story.
B) McDonut is definitely not a linguistic scholar. Some of his interviews were more like he had just survived a tornado in Podunk, Hillbilly Country, (I won’t pick a state, as it may offend some) use your favourite… Arkansas, N Carolina, Tennessee…..
Well… Looks like AZCENTRAL just can’t decide WHAT the title of their article about Brendan’s new book should be.
They just changed it AGAIN… making it look like the article was ‘just published’ again…. even though it’s the same article first published on April 23, 2016.
Original Article title…
** Granite Mountain Hotshot tells a tale of loss and renewal.
Which they then changed to…
** Yarnell ‘lone survivor’: ‘I cried myself to sleep the first four or five nights’
And they have NOW changed to…
** Yarnell ‘lone survivor’: ‘The roar of the fire was huffing behind me’
Here is the link to that article again ( notice that the URL on the Server is still identical to original and shows article was actually first published April 23, 2016 )…
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: Yarnell ‘lone survivor’: ‘The roar of the fire was huffing behind me’
Published: 4:25 p.m. MST April 26, 2016 ( Originally publishes April 23, 2016 )
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/04/23/granite-mountain-hotshot-brandan-mcdonough-book-yarnell-fire/83404270/
There are also now ‘comments’ being left by the PUBLIC on this article about Brendan’s new book… and Brendan was kidding himself if he thought public comment about his ‘book’ was going to be all ‘supportive’. Some people HAVE been ‘paying attention’ all along.
The majority of the ‘comments’ are NOT GOOD.
For example…
———————————————————————————-
** Public Comment by: Monica Rodarte – Apr 25, 2016 2:56pm
Too bad he chose to write a book instead of testifying about what happened to his so called “brothers.”
** Public Comment by: Mary Melcher – 16 hours ago
Cashin’ in was what he was after.
** Public Comment by: Monica Rodarte – 17 hours ago
Mary Melcher… I was born and raised in Prescott and it was deviating when this happened. I get it was tough, but most people would step up and say what can I do to help. He continued to cancel appts to give testimony on what happened that day. Hard for me to trust his integrity. Those men that died are my hometown heros. I know some of their family members. Shame on him. Oh, and did his therapist suggest someone so unstable maybe shouldn’t own a gun?
———————————————————————————
McDonut is a lying little bastard..he knows a LOT more than he is telling…..
We all know it…
The Truth will set you free” as they say in the bible thumper circles… So why keep playing stupid???
I never use Brenden or Brandon–Donut is a better moniker for him- a nut with a hole in it. This fellow has never been trustworthy and continues his charade. His sympathy wagon is beginning to run short.
Reply to Charlie post on April 25, 2016 at 8:37 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Donut says 19 minutes after Frisby picked him up he was
>> sitting in his truck when he heard Marsh (actually Steed
>> was calling) saying they were in a flaming front. Exactly
>> where was he sitting in that truck when he heard that.
19 minutes is WILDLY WRONG. Where did you see/hear him say that?
Brendan was climbing into the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV to be ‘evacuated’ and Frisby was now informing Marsh he was no longer coming up for that second face-to-face meeting right around 3:40 PM.
Jesse Steed’s first botched-MAYDAY call about being “in front of the flaming front” would not take place for just 1 mnute shy of one full HOUR after that ( at 4:39 PM ).
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I would guess they took about 10 minutes by that ATV
>> to get to the truck and about that much time to get
>> out to the Ranch House Café. Was that where he
>> heard this?
The first part of above is inaccurate. Brendan ( and everyone else ) would not hear the first MAYDAY call for a full hour after Frisby had rescued Brendan. That MAYDAY call from Steed didn’t hit the A2G channel until 4:39 PM.
However… the second part of above is accurate.
Yes… it is MOST likely that the entire ‘Blue Ridge Convoy with GM vehicles’ had JUST arrived at the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant ( after having just evacuated down from the Youth Camp at the end of Shrine Road ) when Steed’s first 4:39 PM MAYDAY hit the A2G channel.
They ( Blue Ridge and GM vehicle drivers ) were actually still probably in the act of PARKING all the vehicles there in the RHR parking lot when Steed’s first MAYDAY would hit the A2G channel.
Blue Ridge Hotshot Jonathan Papich took 2 photographs from the passenger side of one of the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers just as it was about to turn into the driveway of the Ranch House Restaurant.
He took both photos with his network-connected Apple iPhone 4, so the timestamps can be considered totally accurate.
Both photos were taken looking WEST from that passenger side of the BR Crew Carrier… and the second photo was taken just 7 seconds after the first one. Both photos show the ‘smoke column’ exactly where it was in relation to the box canyon at the time they were taken ( 4:35 PM ).
Those would be his photos with filenames…
IMG_3957.JPG – Taken at exactly 1635:06 ( 4:35:06 PM )
IMG_3958.JPG – Taken 7 seconds later, at exactly 1635:13 ( 4:35:13 PM )
So it can be assumed that some of the ‘convoy’ had already made it into the actual parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant by the time Steed’s first MAYDAY call hit the A2G channel 4 minutes after Papich took his photos… at 4:39 PM.
Brendan McDonough was 2 vehicles back from the second Blue Ridge Crew Carrier in this ‘convoy’ down to the Ranch House Restaurant, so it can probably also be assumed Brendan had also just pulled the GM Superintendent Truck into the RHR parking lot just before the first MAYDAY call hit the A2G channel.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> That 19 minutes tells plenty of how fast
>> that fire was moving since he had barely escaped
>> his lookout point it had to be very close to his position
>> and Frisby. Frisby was escaping the thing as well and
>> must have seen the fire moving from his high position
>> where he intended to meet Marsh.
Frisby had not made it up to any kind of ‘high position’ when he accidentaly ( in Frsiby’s own words ) “stumbled across the lookout”.
Frisby also did not ‘stumble across’ Brendan at the ‘old grader’.
Brendan had walked down from his lookout mound the same way he had walked up, and he ’emerged’ from the brush not at the old-grader… but right there at that ‘T’ intersection just east of the old-grader. That’s how Frisby was able to ‘stumble across’ Brendan.
Frisby had no intentions of ‘passing by the old grader’ on that trip of his out to meet with Marsh up at the anchor point. As you know… that ‘road’ branches to the south and on up to the high ridge BEFORE you reach the old-grader.
If Brendan had not actually ’emerged’ from his hike down from his lookout mound right where he did, at the the ‘T intersection’ just east of the grader… Frisby would have ‘missed him’ completely and Frisby would have continued traveling up to the anchor point for the face-to-face with Marsh ( which was, at that time, the ONLY reason why Frisby was even headed that way ).
So whatever Frisby ‘saw’ that made him realized that both he and Brendan needed to turn around and get the fuck OUT of that area would have been what Frisby could see from that ‘T intersection’ there just east of the old-grader.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> That whole bunch made themselves look like amateur wild land
>> fire fighters. I suppose what is amazing is the fact they had not
>> long before fought the Doce fire under almost identical
>> conditions. It seems they were fighting these fires like one would
>> fight a burning building–not much worry to weather reports
>> and just contain the blaze so it does not spread to nearby
>> buildings. No need for a lookout, the boss is that and dishes
>> out the orders according to what he thinks and that does not
>> include wild land fire fighter way of thinking and use of LCES.
It was ( and hopefully in terms of numbers of dead ) shall remain…
“The Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefighting”.
And it would still behoove EVERYONE to know ( and UNDERSTAND )
WHY it happened… in order to prevent ( as much as humanly possible )
such a huge ‘blunder’ from ever happening again.
Curious where and how you verified this statement you’ve made many, many times here wtktt:
“Jesse Steed’s first botched-MAYDAY call about being “in front of the flaming front” would not take place for just 1 mnute shy of one full HOUR after that ( at 4:39 PM ).”
Have you had voices verified from family that this first call out for help is Jesse? Do you believe its possible that the first call out and the second call out are different voices? Why do you believe the first call out voice is Jesse? Or are you using the baseless reason that since Jesse was the acting Supt that day he would logically be the only one to call to the Bravo Unit? Just wondering since you speak in absolutes the majority of the time.
I believe it was USA TODAY and AZCENTRAL that first reported ( as a fact ) that the first voice being heard in the original ‘Helmet Cam’ video was Jesse Steed.
Regardless… it simply SOUNDS exactly like Jesse’s voice.
Robert Caldwell’s voice in the same video was verified publicly by ‘family member’ Laurie McKee Sutton.
Click the following link to see a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-333590
Correction well taken there WTKTT.
**
** FIRST ( OF MANY ) MCDONOUGH BOOK REVIEWS
I don’t know if this is their actual ‘book review’… or just another ‘pre-book review book review’ like they tried to publish yesterday… but here is more from AZCENTRAL about what is actually contained in McDonough’s upcoming book “My Lost Brothers”.
According to this ‘review’…
“McDonough’s book makes no new revelations about why his friends didn’t make it out alive.”
We also are now getting confirmation ( apparently ) that Brendan really did almost ‘eat his gun’ over the Yarnell Hill Fire.
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Granite Mountain Hotshot tells a tale of loss and renewal
Published: 8:32 a.m. MST April 23, 2016 by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/04/23/granite-mountain-hotshot-brandan-mcdonough-book-yarnell-fire/83404270/
Apparently ( in the book itself ) McDonough doesn’t mention ever having turned to Darrell Willis to ‘get something off his chest’… which Willis then shared with Prescott City State Attorney Jon Paladini and both of them, in turn, with officials at Arizona State Forestry and the Arizona Attorney General’s office.
But in this AZCENTRAL article ‘about’ the book… and from an interview they had with McDonough just YESTERDAY…
Brendan McDonough is now actually saying that both the former Prescott Wildland Division Chief ( Darrell Willis ) and the Prescott City Attorney ( Jon Paladini )… are LIARS.
From the AZCENTRAL article, when they asked him about what both
Willis and Paladini reported they were told…
——————————————————————-
McDonough on Friday ( yesterday ) tried to end the speculation.
“I did NOT hear that,” he said.
——————————————————————-
Here’s just some of the ERRATTA in the book, if this AZCENTRAL article is reporting the content correctly…
In this first one… McDonough is still totally mistaken about how/why he was actually ‘rescued’. McDonough has always been saying that the reason Brian Frisby suddenly appeared is because they must have been watching the fire behavior and they knew he was going to need a ‘ride out’… so Frisby headed that way to get him before McDonough even had to call him.
That is ( and always has been ) total horseshit.
To this day… McDonough seems to still be unaware that the only reason Brian Frisby appeared near his location in the Blue Ridge UTV circa 3:38 PM was because Frisby was on his way out to a second face-to-face meeting with Marsh… that Marsh had requested circa 3:26 PM, just before the critical 3:30 PM weather update from Byron Kimball.
In Frisby’s own words a few hours later ( captured in a video by Prescott National Forest (PNF) employee Aaron Hulburd )… Frisby himself is heard telling one the other PNF employees, Jason Clawson, that he had only accidentally STUMBLED UPON the ‘lookout’ ( Brendan ).
From the article…
—————————————————————–
…air attack told Marsh around 3:50 p.m. the storm was making its way toward Yarnell and could soon reach the town. Marsh said he was coming up with an escape plan.
Around that time, McDonough was fleeing for his life: He’d underestimated how quickly the fire was bearing toward him, and was terrified it would cut off his escape route.
“The roar of the fire was huffing behind me, growing louder and shriller,” he writes. He tore through the brush and the other crew, anticipating he’d need a ride out, rescued him
———————————————————————-
Interesting to now hear that after first trying to assert this was all a ‘controlled exit’ and was “no big whoop” ( to investigators )… Brendan now describes it as ‘fleeing for his life’.
That absolutely confirms the ADOSH citation for a ‘near entrapment’ regarding McDonough’s situation alone… which Arizona Forestry itself then tried to deny.
So Brendan now totally confirms the original ADOSH findings and their resulting citation.
A little later ( in the article )…
———————————————————————-
Nineteen minutes later, McDonough was sitting in a truck when he heard Marsh’s voice over the radio: “…we are in front of the flaming front.”
———————————————————————-
Nope. That was Jesse Steed.
And here is where McDonough, just yesterday, calls both Darrell Willis and
Jon Paladini LIARS…
———————————————————————–
Speculation abounds that McDonough knows more than he has disclosed about events that day. But McDonough says he doesn’t. He makes no mention of a conversation he purportedly had with Prescott’s former chief of wildland firefighting, in which he reputedly said he overheard a radio call in which the hotshots were ordered to leave their safe zone.
McDonough on Friday tried to end the speculation. “I did not hear that,” he said.
———————————————————————–
Followup…
In the ongoing consternation over that story originally coming from Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini… Brendan’s most recent comment ( from just YESTERDAY ) about “I did not hear that” is probably ONLY referring to the same one-single-point that even Darrell Willis originally disagreed with regarding Paladini’s account of everything Willis told him Brendan said.
And that is just this one-single-point about whether anyone who actually heard what Marsh might have ultimately said to Steed will ever admit it was any kind of actual ‘ORDER’.
So even now… when Brendan says “I did not hear that”… it could just be more ‘dance-around’ and Brendan himself not willing to admit he would characterize whatever he heard as an actual ‘order’.
Brendan is now saying “I didn not hear that”… in reference to some SINGULAR thing.
But there was far more to the original story than just this one, single thing and how that ‘argument’ might have ended that day.
Is Brendan now also saying he didn’t hear that Marsh was ‘scouting ahead’… which he DID admit to hearing in his Wildfire Today interview… or that he didn’t hear these ‘other things’ that he also seems to have admitted hearing when being interviewed by Bill Gabbert?
Is Brendan really calling both Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini and former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis complete LIARS… and that NO PART of that original story is true?…
…or is this ( still ) just over the semantics of whether or not someone would describe something they heard as an actual ORDER… or not?
And what about the Blue Ridge Hotshots?
Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini said ( unequivocally ) that he heard from McDonough ( via Willis ) that the Blue Ridge Hotshots who had been moving the other 3 GM vehicles with Brendan heard all the same GM intra-crew radio traffic that he ( Brendan ) did.
It is HIGHLY unlikely that a City Attorney could have even known enough about the circumstances that afternoon to have even conceivably ‘made that up’.
It is MUCH more likely that even that part of the ‘story’ was exactly what Willis had told Paladini he heard from Brendan himself.
If Brendan thought he could ‘put and end to the speculation’ with just that one statement in an interview yesterday… he is mistaken.
In some ways ( now )… he’s just digging the hole even deeper and making it more important than ever for those Blue Ridge Hotshots to come forward and give their ‘side of the story’.
WTKTT and Woodsman,
Speaking of digging a hole any deeper, I’m taking advantage here to accept your apology Woodsman, from a week or so ago and apologize to you for taking this long to get back to you.
And I almost always post the word ‘NOT’ in caps. So, I was NOT as accurate as I could/should have been on my AZ WF Academy post.
I posted a thread on the 1999 Sadler Fire awhile back that you may find interesting:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-332731
The article stated that: “Without passing judgment, he says they acted on the best information they had at the time.”
Really? Like leaving you perfectly good Safety Zone during aggressive to explosive fire behavior resulting from intense outflow winds from the best vantage point and probably the best Safety Zone on the entire YH Fire ….?
That is NOT a good example of a Crew that “… acted on the best information they had at the time.”
It also stated “He doesn’t know why the crew took the path that led them down from safety atop a blackened ridge and into a trap they would not walk away from at the front of the wind-swept inferno.”
A bit disingenuous here maybe by referring to ‘the path’ that GMHS took rather than WHY they left their perfectly good Safety Zone.
The article states: “he says each firefighter should be outfitted with locators that continuously transmit locations to command centers, ….”
Tracking devices are definitely NOT a good idea and a Pie-in-the Sky, feel good answer to a problem that only existed on the YH Fire because they failed to comply with the “C” prong of LCES and Fire Order No. 7 to ‘maintain prompt communication with your … supervisor and adjoining forces.’
We do NOT need tracking devices! This is just another ‘Attack of the Good Idea People.
It also states: ‘“The system we have isn’t working, period,” he writes. “Guys are dying in the same exact scenarios that were killing hotshots fifty or seventy-five years ago. The exact same scenarios.”’
The ‘system’ is working just fine WHEN you comply with the WFF Rules, PERIOD, and you recognize the blatantly obvious Watch Out Situations and other indicators that tell you to disengage, stay put in the black, or whatever.
There are thousands of WFF’s every fire season that are in fact remaining alive BECAUSE they are following the ‘system’ of WFF Rules, PERIOD!
And I wonder if McDonough will reveal in his book, his SAIT and ADOSH interview statements regarding:
(1) That he was actually TWICE looking for a DEPLOYMENT SITE from his Grader site Lookout post when he hit his way-too-close trigger point, and
(2) Fire Order No. 10 (Fight fire aggressively having provided for safety first) as being ‘Hillbilly’ and how ‘smart … much smarter’ the GMHS were.
I seriously doubt he will reveal either of those.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on April 23, 2016 at 6:06 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The article stated that: “Without passing judgment, he says
>> they acted on the best information they had at the time.”
>>
>> Really? Like leaving you perfectly good Safety Zone during
>> aggressive to explosive fire behavior resulting from intense
>> outflow winds from the best vantage point and probably the
>> best Safety Zone on the entire YH Fire ….?
>>
>> That is NOT a good example of a Crew that “… acted on the
>> best information they had at the time.”
“Acted”… for what reason… when they were already right where they needed to be?
That’s still the 19 million dollar question.
And for whatever reason they were ‘taking action’ when that ‘action’ wasn’t even necessary or safe… to then say they ‘acted on the best information they had’ is just crap. They did NOT have all the information they NEEDED to pull off such a risky move the way they did it… and that was no one’s fault but their own.
– Know what your fire is doing at all times.
– Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
– Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
– Cannot see main fire, not in contact with anyone who can.
– On a hillside where rolling material can ignite fuel below.
– Weather is getting hotter and drier.
– Wind increases and/or changes direction.
– Getting frequent spot fires across line.
– Terrain and fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
etc. etc.
The Hachette Book Group ( the actual publisher of Brendan McDonough’s and Stephan Talty’s book ) has a link where you can already read some of the book online.
http://openbook.hbgusa.com/openbook/9780316308151
The book’s PROLOGUE is the story of McDonough and Christopher MacKenzie almost burning themselves to death in a botched drip-torch operation as Granite Mountain intially responded to the Doce fire, near Prescott, just 12 days before Yarnell.
It’s the story where McDonough and MacKenzie literally ‘waded’ into thick brush that was over their heads and only when fully ’embedded’ in the dry-as-a-bone tall brush did they light and start using their drip-torches.
Things started ( of course ) exploding all around them and they both had to throw their drip-torches away because there were igniting everything around them… and haul ass back to the road. They almost didn’t make it and only got out through the thick brush by crawling on their hands and knees to break out of it and collapse near the side of the road ( minus two drip-torches ).
More documented “Bad decisions with good outcomes” for Granite Mountain… and right there being used as the PROLOUGE for even McDonough’s new ‘tome’.
It then goes on into Chapter One… which just starts with “I grew up about four hundred miles from Prescott…” and is then nothing but ‘background’ on McDonough himself.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It also stated “He doesn’t know why the crew took the path
>> that led them down from safety atop a blackened ridge and
>> into a trap they would not walk away from at the front of the
>> wind-swept inferno.”
>>
>> A bit disingenuous here maybe by referring to ‘the path’
>> that GMHS took rather than WHY they left their perfectly
>> good Safety Zone.
In his interview from some time back with Bill Gabbert at Wildfire Today, Brendan DID say he would at least talk ( in this book ) about what he, himself, THINKS ‘happened’ and what the WHY might have been.
——————————————————————————
The book, he says, is about his life – his background, drug problems, burglary conviction, and becoming a father at age 19. “That’s what I’m saying in the book,” he adds. “I’m sharing the stories and the great memories I have of them, and I’m telling my stories about Yarnell – what I saw, how I felt, and what I think happened.”
He says the publisher promised a bonus if the book sells a lot of copies, and McDonough says he’ll donate some of that to a non-profit organization. “But I am going to take care of my family, I’m going to make sure I have food on the table. A lot of people think I should donate all the money back from the book; I don’t have the funds to do that. I’m like anyone else. I just have the title of Yarnell Hill Lone Survivor.
——————————————————————————
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The article states: “he says each firefighter should be outfitted
>> with locators that continuously transmit locations to command
>> centers, ….”Tracking devices are definitely NOT a good idea
>> and a Pie-in-the Sky, feel good answer to a problem that only
>> existed on the YH Fire because they failed to comply with
>> the “C” prong of LCES and Fire Order No. 7 to ‘maintain
>> prompt communication with your … supervisor and \
>> adjoining forces.’
>>
>> We do NOT need tracking devices! This is just another
>> ‘Attack of the Good Idea People.
It’s the year 2016. There could EASILY be ‘tracking devices’… and at least one of the GM Hotshots ( Kevin Woyjeck ) actually DID have real-time ‘tracking’ ON that fateful day ( on his iPhone ).
So what?
Someone has to be WATCHING that information and making heads or tails out of it… and be empowered to do ‘interventions’ ( and have enough ‘situational awareness’ themselves to even know when that might be necessary ) or it’s just useless data.
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Father used phone app to track his son on Yarnell Hill Fire
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/05/16/father-used-phone-app-to-track-his-son-on-yarnell-hill-fire/
From the article…
—————————————————————————
Using a smart phone application called “Find My Friends”, Joe Woyjeck who works for the Los Angeles County Fire Department, could see the location of his son, Kevin Woyjeck.
On the morning of June 30, Joe Woyjeck was playing with his dog in the front yard of his Southern California home.
He clicked on his phone. An icon representing his son popped up on a map. The phone said he was somewhere outside the community of Yarnell.
Later on, Joe would regret that he didn’t save a screen shot of that map. But at that moment, he didn’t know he would have a reason to do so. He was just taking a peek, as the two always did.
—————————————————————————
So according to this… Kevin Woyjeck DID have “Find My Friends” running on his smartphone on Sunday, June 30, 2013… and it WAS showing his location ‘out there’ on the ridge ‘outside the community of Yarnell’. That means if his father ( or ANYONE ) had really wanted to… he could have kept ‘refreshing’ the APP and seen his location at all times that day… including the path taken ( and exactly when ) towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Technology isn’t the problem. It’s already here.
It’s WHO is supposed to be WATCHING / INTERPRETING the data.
( Continued next Reply so more links can be posted )
The part WTKTT writes about Donut and MacKensie nearly getting caught in the Doce fire brings to mind the Yarnell fire. Exact same type brush in both areas–It is only about 30 miles as the crow flies from the Yarnell incident and was overrun with the exact same manzanita brush the men were caught in. He tell the truth about having to crawl through places to get out in time. The men had the same situation at the death basin they were ordered into. There was no running but more like scrambling involved.
It’s hard to figure out WHAT author Stephen Talty was trying to accomplish by using that McDonough / MacKenzie near-entrapment on the Doce fire story as the actual PROLOGUE for this ‘My Lost Brothers’ thing.
If author Stephen Talty thought that was some good of good, EXCITING intro for the book that would show just how dangerous Wildland Firefighting can be… and how that incident totally scared the shit out of Brendan to the point where he almost up and quit right there on the Doce Fire…
…I don’t think Talty accomplished his ‘purpose’.
Even if you didn’t know anything about Wildland Firefighting, and how you often “fight fire with fire” and light backburns and stuff… the way that PROLOGUE is written just leaves you with one impression about what McDonough and MacKenzie did that day… and how they had to throw away their drip torches to survive and come CRAWLING out of the thick brush.
“What a bunch of DUMBASSES”.
Whether the fuels were the same or different on the Doce Fire is irrelevant. Every fire is different and so is every fuel type.
Rather than saying “Just like on the Doce fire….” Do an analysis of what you got on the Yarnell fire and act accordingly.
Complacency kills… As does fatigue that leads to complacency… Just another scrub fire in the Arizona desert, what could go wrong????
( Continued from above… )
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It also states: ‘“The system we have isn’t working, period,” he
>> writes. “Guys are dying in the same exact scenarios that
>> were killing hotshots fifty or seventy-five years ago. The
>> exact same scenarios.”’
>>
>> The ‘system’ is working just fine WHEN you comply with
>> the WFF Rules, PERIOD, and you recognize the blatantly
>> obvious Watch Out Situations and other indicators that
>> tell you to disengage, stay put in the black, or whatever.
>>
>> There are thousands of WFF’s every fire season that are in fact
>> remaining alive BECAUSE they are following the ‘system’ of
>> WFF Rules, PERIOD!
“Guys are dying in the same exact scenarios”.
Yes… they are.. but do you think Brendan even knows that the ‘exact common scenarios’ for the deaths were the failure to fully observe all the rules of engagement… exactly as was the case in Yarnell on June 30, 2013?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And I wonder if McDonough will reveal in his book, his SAIT
>> and ADOSH interview statements regarding:
>>
>> (1) That he was actually TWICE looking for a DEPLOYMENT
>> SITE from his Grader site Lookout post when he hit his
>> way-too-close trigger point, and
>>
>> (2) Fire Order No. 10 (Fight fire aggressively having provided
>> for safety first) as being ‘Hillbilly’ and how ‘smart … much
>> smarter’ the GMHS were.
>>
>> I seriously doubt he will reveal either of those.
I also doubt it… but we shall see.
It’s fascinating to already see, however, that Brendan is know abandoning his ‘story’ about his ‘rescue’ being “No big whoop” ( as he told investigators ) in favor of the more ‘exciting’ version that he was (quote from the book) “runninig for his life”.
I guess he ( and Stephen Talty and the publishers ) realized that “no big whoop” doesn’t sell books… but I also didn’t think he realized he would end up now CONFIRMING that ADOSH and WFA investigator’s conclusions… and the resulting workplace safety violations.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> WTKTT and Woodsman,
>>
>> Speaking of digging a hole any deeper, I’m taking advantage
>> here to accept your apology Woodsman, from a week or so
>> ago and apologize to you for taking this long to get back to you.
>>
>> And I almost always post the word ‘NOT’ in caps.
>> So, I was NOT as accurate as I could/should have been on
>> my AZ WF Academy post.
Just to wrap up that discussion from below… the actual ‘point’ of the original post was to just show that Arizona Wildfire Academy had FINALLY gotten around, themselves, to actually ADMITTING ( on their own public website ) that they did, in fact, give their 205 “Southwestern Wildland Firefighter of the Year Award” to “Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge Hotshots”.
After they had been purposely REFUSING to ‘announce’ that on their OWN public media outlets ( website and Facebook ) for so long… I actually didn’t think they were EVER going to ‘admit it’ via their own public outlet(s).
And I DO still agree with you that it was most likely some kind of “thanks for keeping your mouths shut award”.
But there really is no question ( now that we see the photograph of Brian Frisby accepting the award ) that Brian Frisby really WAS there at that Banquet at the ‘Prescott Resort’ on Tuesday, March 8, 2016… the same night YOU were ( supposedly ) there.
The PROOF ( that Frisby WAS there, THAT night ) is in the photograph itself.
Here ( again ) is a link to that photograph of Frisby receiving the award that just recently appeard on the AWIMA’s own public website dedicated to their ‘Southwestern Firefighter of the Year’ page. It’s the same photograph used in their ‘2016 Final Report’ document…
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/Wildland-Firefighter-of-the-Year.html
Unlike previous banquets where there ended up being ‘tons’ of public photographs emerging following one of these AWIMA ‘banquets’… this year there are only 3 other known ‘photographs’ that have appeared.
They are the ones that AWIMA Director Tony Sciacca himself published on the AWIMA public Facebook page the day after the banquet… and the ones where he said awards were given… but then ( mysteriously ) refused to say ( publicly ) to WHO… like he was actually AFRAID to ‘announce’ it, or something.
These 3 photographs that Sciacca ‘published’ from the Tuesday night banquet were ONLY of the ‘Honor Ceremony’ that took place at the banquet with the ‘folding of the flag’ and the ‘honoring the fallen’ ceremony which is now ( permanently ) part of the annual banquet.
THOSE 3 photographs ( as originally published by Sciacca ) are here…
https://www.facebook.com/113390165360151/photos/pcb.1140263299339494/1140262919339532/?type=3&theater
These (3) photos taken at the Tuesday night banquet show several important ‘details’…
1. There was a ‘projection screen’ in-use that evening behind the small ‘stage’. The image being shown on the screen is the AWIMA custom logo that also contains the motto ‘Esse Quam Videri’ at the top.
2. Just to the right of the small ‘stage’ and the projection screen, there is a ‘serving table’ containing several stainless steel food containers stacked on top of each other. The container on the top still has clear ‘plastic’ wrapped around it. This appears to have been just a ‘food’ or ‘condiments’ or ‘drink’ station set up for the banquet that evening.
3. On the right edge of the photo showing the flag being folded, we see Arizona Forestry Jeff Whitney, wearing a tan jacket and a blue shirt.
Now look again at the ‘new’ photograph that has surfaced showing Brian Frisby actually ‘accepting’ the AWIMA award.
You will notice the following…
1. Jeff Whitney ( standing on Frisby’s left as he accepts the award ) is wearing the same ‘tan jacket with blue shirt’ as seen in Sciacca’s photos taken at the Tuesday night banquet during the flag folding ceremony.
2. The exact same ‘stainless steel food containers’ are seen on that ‘table’ just to the right of the ‘stage’… exactly as they are seen in Sciacca’s other photos taken that same night.
3. The ‘projector’ is still RUNNING when the photo of Frisby accepting the award was taken… and it is showing the exact same AWIMA ‘Esse Quam Videri’ logo as is seen in ALL of Sciacca’s photos taken that same Tuedsay evening.
Some of the ‘projection’ is even shown appearing on Todd Abel’s cowboy hat there as he stands to Frisby’s right while Frisby was ‘accepting’ the award and the ‘engraved Pulaski’.
The AWIMA only had that banquet room at the Prescott Resort reserved for that one night ( Tuesday, March 8, 2016 ). For them to have ‘staged’ the photograph with Frisby on some OTHER night means they would have had to have returned to the same room… made sure the ‘condiments’ table and the ‘metal containers’ were set up exactly the same way they were on the Tuesday night… and then made sure the projector was ON and loaded with the exact same LOGO image from the Tuesday night… and also have told Jeff Whitney to be sure and were the same tan jacket and blue shirt he had been wearing on Tuesday night.
Followup…
You won’t find the actual ‘Esse Quam Videri’ custom logo created for the ‘Arizona Wildfire Incident and Management Academy’ ( AWIMA ) that was used in the projector at the Tuesday, March 8, 2016 awards banquet anywhere on their own website…
…but Tony Sciacca did post this ‘logo’ to the AWIMA public Facebook page back on November 30 of 2015.
It’s the ‘logo’ that is also appearing on the projection screen in the ( only ) 3 photos that Sciacca posted from this year’s banquet during the the ‘Honor Guard’ ceremony… and which is also STILL on the screen behind Brian Frisby and Todd Abel and Jeff Whitney as they ‘posed’ with Frisby while he was accepting the 205 ‘Firefighter of the Year award’ that same night.
That logo is seen HERE… on the AWIMA public ‘Facebook’ page…
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1076497362382755&id=113390165360151
Typo above.
Meant to say… “the 2015 Firefighter of the Year Award’.
WTKTT
Your investigation seems to lake some simple fact.
RTS was not supposedly there at the Banquet.
There is written proof he was there as stated By Holly Neil.
She stated as did RTS that they sat together at he banquet and had conversations with each other.
She popped in with that information while we were discussing the Banquet.
If RTS did not see Brian receive the award then he did not see him. For what ever reason there was nothing to gain by RTS.
I do not question your research on the pictures. If you want to press RTS so be it. Your snarky remarks are out of tune with your canny ability to research the recorded statements in this thread that would also show RTS at the Banquet.
RTS was (Supposedly) there is just playing a game that you already know the answer to.
Woops Lack not Lake.
WTKTT in case you don’t remember.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-329481
Not Sat together but Met at the Banquet.
As stated above.
So if Frisby was headed out to contact Marsh it would mean that Marsh was either at the Ranch or Near the Ranch since that would be the only way to get to Marsh from the Old Grader area where Donut was picked up. It would also mean Marsh and Frisby were having regular communication. Also if Frisby and Donut were being overtaken by the fire reversal it means Marsh at that time had to know from Frisby and others listening on the radio that they were already in deep shit by bringing those men down. The Grader area is not that far from where they were and the fire had already passed the lower end of the two ridges that separated the brush trap from the fire. In fact the fire had gone past that point by 11:30 as we watched it so it was quite a ways south and when those 45mph winds came they had a straight and direct path not only at Donut but straight across flat land with an upward slope up toward the basin. Every 10 degrees doubles the advance rate of a fire so it had about a doubling of speed on top of the wind factor behind it. No wonder witnesses said the big eyes of Donut and others leaving out of there that locals residents witnessed as they left the Sesame Street area convinced them that they better get out too.
I have to believe that sometime soon Donut’s avoidance of the truth will come out. He has withheld evidence from the beginning and continues, the guilt toward keeping that information from the loved ones has to have been heavy.
Actually there was one other alternative for Marsh meeting Frisby and more likely than any other–Marsh could have been headed down to move equipment–the direct path to the buggies would have been sensible since they knew the fire was headed their direction and those would be burned–but the fire advanced on them too quickly and there was lots of heavy duty brush between the Helms and the buggies so Marsh must have called off the meeting seeing he needed to get back to his men to see how good the turkey roasters were going to work. Likely, if they were like Donut they did not know how to properly deploy. Ted Putnam explained to me that you need to lie down and use all fours to extend the blanket above you–but I say even that under the intense heat of that type inferno there was no hope except to run to the boulders.
Reply to Charlie post on April 23, 2016 at 10:56 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> So if Frisby was headed out to contact Marsh it would
>> mean that Marsh was either at the Ranch or Near the
>> Ranch since that would be the only way to get to
>> Marsh from the Old Grader area where Donut was
>> picked up.
Based on all the (currently) available evidence… NO… that’s not possible.
At 1528, and just before Byron Kimball’s criticial “40-50 mph winds and fireline reversals expected” weather update, is when Eric Marsh asked Brian Frisby to come and meet with him ‘face-to-face’ for the second time that day.
There is no evidence that this second ‘face-to-face’ that Marsh was now requesting ( at exactly 3:28 PM ) was supposed to be anywhere other than where Frisby and Brown had already met with Marsh and Steed earlier in the day ( from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM ) up there near the ‘anchor point’ where Granite Mountain had been working all day.
So it is still ASSUMED that Eric Marsh himself would have been WAITING right there near that ‘known meeting location’ for Frisby to arrive… up until the moment when Frisby called Marsh and informed him he had just ‘stumbled across’ Brendan and that he was no longer ‘headed up there’ for that second face-to-face.
So given the fact that Frisby did not INFORM Marsh that he was NOT going to make it up there until 3:40 PM… then it is also assumed that would be the earliest possible time Eric Marsh could have then ‘changed his plans’ and taken off from the ‘anchor point’ to start ‘scouting ahead’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
If Marsh had ‘taken off’ to the south and started ‘scouting ahead’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch any earlier than 3:40 PM… and Frisby had NOT ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan… then it is highly likely that Brian Frisby would have just continued his journey on up to the anchor point for the expected ‘face-to-face’… only to then discover that Marsh wasn’t even there for the meeting HE ( Marsh ) had requested.
It would have resulted in an exchange between Steed and Frisby, circa 3:44 PM when Frisby would have finally ‘arrived’ up there… that would have gone something like this…
Brian Frisby: Okay… I’m here now. Where’s Eric?
Jesse Steed: Well… he took off to the south already to ‘scout’ that way towards that Boulder Springs Ranch thing.
Brian Frisby: What the fuck?
So no… the ‘evidence’ still just suggests that Eric WAS right there at the ‘anchor point’ area waiting for Frisby to arrive ( since Eric KNEW he had agreed to the meeting and WAS on his way ‘up there’ ) until the moment when Frisby called him on the radio ( right at 3:40 PM ) and informed that he was NOT going to make the ‘meeting’… and was going to evacuate Brendan instead.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> It would also mean Marsh and Frisby were having
>> regular communication.
Actually… THAT is most likely true.
It is highly likely that both Brian Frisby AND Trueheart Brown had more ‘conversations’ with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed than we are ( as yet ) aware of.
We still don’t even know what Steed, Marsh, Frisby and Brown actually talked about for the 30 minutes they were together, in-person, for that first face-to-face meeting… other than some scant reports about discussing the piss-poor breifings, some radio problems, whether Frisby and Brown could give them more ‘Gatorade and cubies’… and if they would ‘deliver’ Brendan down to that lookout mound.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Also if Frisby and Donut were being overtaken by the fire
>> reversal it means Marsh at that time had to know from
>> Frisby and others listening on the radio that they were
>> already in deep shit by bringing those men down.
It wouldn’t be for another 10-15 minutes following Frsiby’s ‘rescue’ of Brendan before we would hear Jesse Steed reporting to Marsh “I copy… and it’s almost made it to that two-track road we walked in on”.
That still sounds like Jesse Steed WARNING Marsh ( since he was, apparently, not in a position to see it himself ) that the fire was moving VERY quickly. Marsh seems to have ignored that… and ended up ‘ordering’ Jesse to bring the crew ‘out of the safe black’ anyway.
Frisby ‘rescued’ Brendan at 3:40 PM.
We would not hear ( and see with our own eyes in the MacKenzie video ) Steed telling Marsh “It’s almost made it to that two-track” until 3:55 PM.
During those 15 minutes is when Marsh had taken off to the south from the anchor point to ‘scout ahead’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
It’s currently a ‘consensus’ that the REASON Jesse Steed was informing Marsh about exactly where the fireline was circa 3:55 PM is because Marsh was already far to the south ‘scouting’ and Marsh was NOT in a position to see clearly for himself what Jesse and the Crew could see from back there in the ‘safe black’ at the anchor point.
But apparently Marsh either did not ‘believe’ anything Jesse was telling him about the fireline location ( and speed )… or Marsh just didn’t care what Steed thought… because they ended up leaving that ‘safe-black’ anyway after Marsh (supposedly) ordered them to do so.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I have to believe that sometime soon Donut’s avoidance of
>> the truth will come out. He has withheld evidence from
>> the beginning and continues, the guilt toward keeping
>> that information from the loved ones has to have been heavy.
Brendan STILL seems to be playing his “ask me the right question and I might give you the right answer” game(s).
Even in the AZCENTRAL interview just 48 hours ago… it appears that his response of “I did NOT hear that” was simply made after being asked a pointed question such as “Did you hear Eric Marsh ORDER Jesse Steed to take that crew out of the safe black?”
So Brendan just ‘answered the question he was asked’ and could be playing his own ‘semantics game’ and thinking he’s being truthful because he, himself, doesn’t consider whatever he DID hear to be ‘an ORDER’.
Even Bill Gabbert at Wildfire Today totally botched his interview with Brendan and simply wasn’t ‘asking the right questions’.
I hope someone who DOES know how to ‘interview’ someone gets Brendan on camera during this ‘book signing’ tour he’s about to do and finally just makes Brendan stop playing these namby-pamby “ask me the right question and I might give you the right answer” game(s).
I hope someone lets the video camera roll and just says…
“Tell us EVERYTHING YOU HEARD on the radio while you were moving the GM vehicles. ALL of it.”
Anyone have a link to image of Marty Cole ?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on April 24, 2016 at 10:54 pm
>> Joy A. Collura asked…
>>
>> Anyone have a link to image of Marty Cole ?
Just Google…
“Marty Cole” Facebook
Be sure and put quotes around the name “Marty Cole” in the search query.
The very first Google Search result will be a link to his PUBLIC Facebook page.
His Facebook ‘Avatar’ is a cartoon. It’s a picture of ‘Wily Coyote’ strangling the RoadRunner.
Actual PUBLIC Facebook name is ‘Martin Cole’…
https://www.facebook.com/martin.cole.165?ref=br_rs
Scroll down just 1 page and there’s a photo of an early version of the Granite Mountain Hotshots… when Marty Cole was the ‘Superintendent’.
They are all sitting/standing on a rock in Oregon during the ‘second year of the crew’. Marty Cole is the one in the RED helmet standing at the very LEFT edge of the photo.
Direct link to that PUBLIC photograph on his PUBLIC Facebook page would be…
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=545345345492776&set=pb.100000519452514.-2207520000.1461568263.&type=3&theater
Comments on the photo itself ( including one from Marty Cole himself )…
——————————————————————————-
Comment from Daniel Algara – December 15, 2012 at 9:45pm
Is this before you guys became a G.M. IHC right. Still pretty cool
Reply from Martin Cole – December 16, 2012 at 9:13am
Oregon second year of the crew
——————————————————————————-
Followup…
If you then just Google…
“Martin Cole” Prescott
The third search result is a link to an article that ran in the ‘Chino Valley Review’ on June 15, 2011, featuring local Chino Valley resident and firefighter ‘Martin Cole’ and his son, Tyler.
That PUBLIC article was all about Tyler Cole ‘following in his father’s footsteps’ and becoming a firefighter for the Prescott National Forest.
There is also a very good ( closeup ) PUBLIC photo of Martin Cole and his son Tyler that is at the top of the article.
When the article was written ( 2011 )… Marty Cole had just retired ( with full pension ) from the Prescott Fire Department but ( as mentioned in the article ) he was now immediately ‘double dipping’ out of retirement and being sent out with Incident Management Teams in and around Arizona and New Mexico.
The Chino Valley Review
Article Title: Into the heat with my dad.
Published: 6/15/2011 by Diane DeHamer ( Feature Writer )
http://cvrnews.com/main.asp?SectionID=74&SubSectionID=114&ArticleID=53876
From the article…
———————————————————————-
Firefighting is what Martin Cole has done since 1980, until this past May when he retired from the Prescott Fire Department. Just as Martin was retiring, his son, Tyler, hired on with the Prescott National Forest to be a firefighter, too.
“I got into firefighting because of my dad being a firefighter, and I’ve wanted to do this since I was little,” Tyler said.
Although Martin retired from Prescott Fire, he is still fighting fires, only now with the Prescott National Forest. He just returned from fighting a fire (Osha) in New Mexico.
Martin and Tyler’s family is proud of Martin’s work and happy that Tyler is following in his dad’s footsteps.
“I love it that my son, Tyler, has gotten into this work, too,” Martin said. “I hope we get to work together someday.”
Tyler is excited to begin his firefighting career, too.
“I’ve always admired my dad’s firefighting work. I hope I can do as well.”
———————————————————————-
Here is a DIRECT jumplink to the PUBLIC photo of Marty Cole and his son Tyler that accompanied this Chino Valley News article…
Marty Cole is on the LEFT, in this photograph.
http://cvrnews.com/SiteImages/Article/53876a.jpg
And here is another PUBLIC (closeup) photo of Marty Cole taken just
90 days or so before the Yarnell tragedy.
Marty Cole has always been very active with the ‘Arizona Wildfire Incident and Management Academy’ ( AWIMA ) there in Prescott… and in March of 2013, just 3 months before the Yarnell tragedy, Marty Cole was one of the ‘Operations Section Chiefs’ for the 2013 AWIMA. ( They run the Academy like it’s an ‘Incident’ and all the managers get assigned standard ICS titles like ‘IC’ and ‘OPS’ and ‘DIVS’ and stuff ).
Marty Cole’s birthday fell in the middle of the Academy week that year… and this PUBLIC Facebook post with a picture of him was part of the other AWIMA people saying ‘Happy Birthday’ to Marty Cole.
Since this is only 3 months before the Yarnell tragedy… this ‘closeup’ of Cole is probably the closest known PUBLIC photo of him prior to him being hired as a ‘Safety Officer’ for they Yarnell Hill Fire on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Direct link to this PUBLIC AWIMA photo posted on their PUBLIC Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/113390165360151/photos/a.552627881436375.1073741825.113390165360151/552627891436374/?type=3&theater
Marty Cole is the one who was driving that all-white Toyota Tacoma pickup with the camper top that appears at the Ranch House Restauarant and in the Russ Reason ( Rest in Peace ) video.
It had a white magnetic sign on the side with RED letters that just said “FIRE”, and it was parked on the western edge of the RHR parking lot, just south of that northern driveway leading into the RHR itself.
Marty Cole was one of the ‘Safety Officers’ ( along with Tony Sciacca ) that was ‘hired’ for Sunday, June 30, 2013 in Yarnell… but both he and Sciacca weren’t actually ‘ordered up’ until Sunday morning itself. Sciacca got there first but it was still mid-afternoon and Sciacca was still just getting ‘oriented’ to what was going on in Yarnell when the deployment took place.
Marty Cole, however, elected to NOT depart the Prescott area for Yarnell that afternoon UNTIL he got all his ‘paperwork’ delivered so he could be sure the order went through. Consequently, ‘Safety Office’ Marty Cole didn’t arrive in Yarnell until literally just MINUTES for the deployment took place.
In the Russ Reason video… Brendan McDonough is seen standing there at the back of Marty Cole’s all-white pickup, hanging his head and looking distraught, and the taller FF near him ( presumably a Blue Ridge Hotshot ) is ‘comforting’ Brendan.
Marty Cole would then be the one to ‘collect’ Brendan there at the RHR parking lot, put his gear in the back of his all-white truck… and then drive Brendan up to the ICP at the Model Creek School in Peeples Valley. It is also assumed that Marty Cole was then the one who drove Brendan back to Prescott that Sunday night.
WTKTT–Donut says 19 minutes after Frisby picked him up he was sitting in his truck when he heard Marsh (actually Steed was calling) saying they were in a flaming front. Exactly where was he sitting in that truck when he heard that. I would guess they took about 10 minutes by that ATV to get to the truck and about that much time to get out to the Ranch House Café. Was that where he heard this. That 19 minutes tells plenty of how fast that fire was moving since he had barely escaped his lookout point it had to be very close to his position and Frisby. Frisby was escaping the thing as well and must have seen the fire moving from his high position where he intended to meet Marsh.
That whole bunch made themselves look like amateur wild land fire fighters. I suppose what is amazing is the fact they had not long before fought the Doce fire under almost identical conditions. It seems they were fighting these fires like one would fight a burning building–not much worry to weather reports and just contain the blaze so it does not spread to nearby buildings. No need for a lookout, the boss is that and dishes out the orders according to what he thinks and that does not include wild land fire fighter way of thinking and use of LCES
Reply to Charlie post on April 25, 2016 at 8:37 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Donut says 19 minutes after Frisby picked him up he was
>> sitting in his truck when he heard Marsh (actually Steed
>> was calling) saying they were in a flaming front. Exactly
>> where was he sitting in that truck when he heard that.
19 minutes is WILDLY WRONG. Where did you see/hear him say that?
Brendan was climbing into the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV to be ‘evacuated’ and Frisby was now informing Marsh he was no longer coming up for that second face-to-face meeting right around 3:40 PM.
Jesse Steed’s first botched-MAYDAY call about being “in front of the flaming front” would not take place for just 1 mnute shy of one full HOUR after that ( at 4:39 PM ).
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I would guess they took about 10 minutes by that ATV
>> to get to the truck and about that much time to get
>> out to the Ranch House Café. Was that where he
>> heard this?
The first part of above is inaccurate. Brendan ( and everyone else ) would not hear the first MAYDAY call for a full hour after Frisby had rescued Brendan. That MAYDAY call from Steed didn’t hit the A2G channel until 4:39 PM.
However… the second part of above is accurate.
Yes… it is MOST likely that the entire ‘Blue Ridge Convoy with GM vehicles’ had JUST arrived at the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant ( after having just evacuated down from the Youth Camp at the end of Shrine Road ) when Steed’s first 4:39 PM MAYDAY hit the A2G channel.
They ( Blue Ridge and GM vehicle drivers ) were actually still probably in the act of PARKING all the vehicles there in the RHR parking lot when Steed’s first MAYDAY would hit the A2G channel.
Blue Ridge Hotshot Jonathan Papich took 2 photographs from the passenger side of one of the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers just as it was about to turn into the driveway of the Ranch House Restaurant.
He took both photos with his network-connected Apple iPhone 4, so the timestamps can be considered totally accurate.
Both photos were taken looking WEST from that passenger side of the BR Crew Carrier… and the second photo was taken just 7 seconds after the first one. Both photos show the ‘smoke column’ exactly where it was in relation to the box canyon at the time they were taken ( 4:35 PM ).
Those would be his photos with filenames…
IMG_3957.JPG – Taken at exactly 1635:06 ( 4:35:06 PM )
IMG_3958.JPG – Taken 7 seconds later, at exactly 1635:13 ( 4:35:13 PM )
So it can be assumed that some of the ‘convoy’ had already made it into the actual parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant by the time Steed’s first MAYDAY call hit the A2G channel 4 minutes after Papich took his photos… at 4:39 PM.
Brendan McDonough was 2 vehicles back from the second Blue Ridge Crew Carrier in this ‘convoy’ down to the Ranch House Restaurant, so it can probably also be assumed Brendan had also just pulled the GM Superintendent Truck into the RHR parking lot just before the first MAYDAY call hit the A2G channel.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> That 19 minutes tells plenty of how fast
>> that fire was moving since he had barely escaped
>> his lookout point it had to be very close to his position
>> and Frisby. Frisby was escaping the thing as well and
>> must have seen the fire moving from his high position
>> where he intended to meet Marsh.
Frisby had not made it up to any kind of ‘high position’ when he accidentaly ( in Frsiby’s own words ) “stumbled across the lookout”.
Frisby also did not ‘stumble across’ Brendan at the ‘old grader’.
Brendan had walked down from his lookout mound the same way he had walked up, and he ’emerged’ from the brush not at the old-grader… but right there at that ‘T’ intersection just east of the old-grader. That’s how Frisby was able to ‘stumble across’ Brendan.
Frisby had no intentions of ‘passing by the old grader’ on that trip of his out to meet with Marsh up at the anchor point. As you know… that ‘road’ branches to the south and on up to the high ridge BEFORE you reach the old-grader.
If Brendan had not actually ’emerged’ from his hike down from his lookout mound right where he did, at the the ‘T intersection’ just east of the grader… Frisby would have ‘missed him’ completely and Frisby would have continued traveling up to the anchor point for the face-to-face with Marsh ( which was, at that time, the ONLY reason why Frisby was even headed that way ).
So whatever Frisby ‘saw’ that made him realized that both he and Brendan needed to turn around and get the fuck OUT of that area would have been what Frisby could see from that ‘T intersection’ there just east of the old-grader.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> That whole bunch made themselves look like amateur wild land
>> fire fighters. I suppose what is amazing is the fact they had not
>> long before fought the Doce fire under almost identical
>> conditions. It seems they were fighting these fires like one would
>> fight a burning building–not much worry to weather reports
>> and just contain the blaze so it does not spread to nearby
>> buildings. No need for a lookout, the boss is that and dishes
>> out the orders according to what he thinks and that does not
>> include wild land fire fighter way of thinking and use of LCES.
It was ( and hopefully in terms of numbers of dead ) shall remain…
“The Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefighting”.
And it would still behoove EVERYONE to know ( and UNDERSTAND )
WHY it happened… in order to prevent ( as much as humanly possible )
such a huge ‘blunder’ from ever happening again.
I do hereby officially apologize to Mr. Brendan McDonough, formerly known as our hapless hero who has shit for brains. I have been following Mr. McDonough illustrious career ever since I very publicly gave him unsolicited advice to go Yavapai Junior College and learn a good trade.
I strongly wrote that Mr. McDonough could NOT make a life for himself and his family by being a professional sad sack and a victim. I was wrong about that assumption just like I have been wrong about so many things in my life. MR. McDonough is living proof that no one should ever listen to me. That is all…please carry on.
Donut might be more cagey than we know Gary. Look how he is going with the flow of the cash boat. The sad sack act is getting him a sack of cash–I just wonder how sincere his act really is. I had heard he was a type of anomaly and often times annoyance to the group–and I wonder how he had precedence over Willis, since Willis was also a survivor of the group and working the fire as well. WTKTT tells of how he barely escaped as did Donut–yet Donut gets all the Bennies here. What gives?
In a world that bases success on results…it doesn’t matter how sincere Mr. Brendan McDonough is. All that matters IS the sackful of cash. And I have already stated without any reservations that Mr. McDonough is indeed far more cagey than I thought he was.
I watched him do the Jack Links infomercial and this young man has a bright future in front of him as a pitchman. Mr. McDonough was working alongside a highly experienced and decorated former full bird U.S. Air Force colonel and he held his own.
As a matter of fact, he did far more than hold his own…he was a stand out! I always try to admit it when I am wrong except when it comes to my dear wife (NO…I am King of Jungle) …and I was wrong about Mr. McDonough. So…
Not wrong at all Gary–you read his book before he wrote it.
In addition to the next ‘Charlie/OPSTEST’ ‘Fire Community’ run of the ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’ taking place next week, it’s about to be a busy first week of May on the ‘publishing’ front.
BOTH the Fernanda Santos book and Brendan Mcdonough’s “Lost Brothers” book are going to be officially released right on top of each other. The Santos book on May 3 and the McDonough thing on May 5.
There have already been advanced copies of both books floating around. The Santos one is going to be nothing more than just another “Who were the guys that actually died” thing just like the Kyle Dickman book.. and pretty much ditto for the McDonough thing except it’s really just ‘all about him’.
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL ) hasn’t had anything to say about Yarnell for quite some time… but just today they indicated they are gearing up for the Yarnell book review bandwagon that’s about to go down.
Here is AZCENTRAL doing a pre-book-review book-review ( didn’t know there was such a thing ) for the McDonough book…
http://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/ej-montini/2016/04/21/montini-brendan-mcdonough-stephan-talty-yarnell-hill-fire/83343510/
Donut has “no clue” why they left the black. But he heard Marsh argue with Steed according to Willis. Best get all the perks while, he can, since when it is proven he does have a clue people might not be so happy with his continued withholding of the truth. Is it a case of the 5th?
Maybe Donut dont remember like you don’t remember…because I haven’t seen you tell the world yet how you met the man who spoke to the safety officer of yhf?
Hmm…
Had you are alive though…
Seldom Seen
[email protected]
http://Www.seldom seen jewelry.com
623-465-7725
See you on the trails Brenda and David.
Thank you bunches for the perfect gun engraving…
The guy before me was getting his engraved due to a divorce.. Too funny. I guess the man thinks making his mark is gonna keep a woman from taking everything.
Off I go back to the grind of the real world but highly recommend these people for engraving of guns…phones…knives…etc
Ma and Pa kettle fudge
Lesley and Gary Lesley
1015 S Lahiguera Green Valley Arizona 208-659-4373
Yummy fudge…
? how is DAVe turbyfils shelter comming along??… … he says a bettter sheltr wouldve saved them at 2000 degrees//??…. … bring it pls…
More public comments coming from family members following
the April/Beta ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride’…
https://www.facebook.com/david.turbyfill.9?fref=ufi
—————————————————————————————
Public Comment by: DavidnShari Turbyfill – April 13 at 2:47pm
Just a note to Arizona State Fire leaders there in Phoenix . After 2 days last week of grueling inconsistencies and no accountability I will probably forever work on trying to forgive the actions that were taken and not taken on June 30th by Arizona fire leadership. It is very difficult to forgive when the forgiven find no fault
Shari Turbyfill ( Mother of Granite Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ).
—————————————————————————————-
Even as comments about how ‘disappointing’ and ‘inconsistent’ and ‘error filled’ the recent the April/Beta ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’ was continue to appear from actual participants… the SECOND April run of this same ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’ is about to take place.
This one is being called the ‘Charlie’ and/or the ‘OPS’ test, and it is still scheduled to take place in just a few days… circa April 26, 27.
The ‘invited participants’ for this next ‘run’ of the Staff Ride were originally slated to be ‘Community’ members… but Jeff Whitney and Don Boursier of Arizona Forestry ended up adjusting that expectation to ONLY mean “members of the FIRE Community”.
So invitations were ONLY sent to current or former FFs who were being ‘nominated’ via emails from various FFs back to Don’t Boursier.
Example nominees were FFs that were present and working the Yarnell Fire the weekend of June 28-30, 2016. The list included even FFs for whom the SAIT and Arizona Forestry originally made every attempt to HIDE their presence at, and their involvement in, the Yarnell Hill Fire.
FFs such as the ” Three Prescotteers”. The ‘off the radar’ hires for Sunday from the Prescott National Forest who all ended up as key witnesses to the deployment radio traffic and were also directly involved in the ground rescue mission, discovery of the bodies, and the securing of the deployment site. Jason Class on, KC ‘Bucky’ Howell and Aaron Hulburd.
It is not known if next week’s ‘Charlie’ Staff Ride’ for the ‘FF Community’ is based on the same ‘Staff Ride Guide’ as was just used for the ‘family members’ Beta run… or whether updates/changes have been made to the ‘Guide’ or the Stand presentations based on feedback and input from the family members.
The company subcontracted by US Forestry to help create this ‘Yarnell Staff Ride’ product always had BOTH of these scheduled April Staff Rides showing up on their own public ‘events’ website… but even now they are still trying to keep the fact that these ‘events’ are associated with the Yarnell Fire a ‘secret’.
They only list these Yarnell Staff Rides on their own public website as simply “The Project”.
They also just refer to next week’s Yarnell Staff Ride as an ‘OPTEST’.
OMNA International
Event Calendar – April, 2016
http://theomna.com/events.html
——————————–
Events Scheduled in 2016…
APRIL 2016
Project BETA – 5-8 April
Gettysburg 11-15 Apr USFWS
Fredericksburg-Chancellorsville 18-22 Apr ICACC
Project OPTEST – 26-27 April
——————————–
Whoops. Dumbphone spell checker farts and some typos up above.
The Yarnell Hill Fire was obviously in 2013, not 2016.
Spell checker changed Arizona Forestry employee Don Boursier’s name to “Don’t Boursier” and Prescott National Forest employee Jason Clawson’s name to “Jason Class on”.
SIDENOTE: Jason Clawson no longer works for Prescott National Forest. He did the day of the Yarnell tragedy… but subsequently left Prescott. He is still USFS employee and still in Arizona but working on another Forest.
**
** BAD DECISIONS WITH GOOD OUTCOMES
**
** THAT’S HOW WE ROLL!
Another interesting ‘comment’ that has appeared over on Mr. David Turbyfill’s ‘WAKE UP!!’ public Facebook thread.
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/?rc=p
This one would be almost hilarious… if it wasn’t so damn SCARY.
Some CURRENT Firefighter commenting that he and his unit have ( and will continue ) to make “Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes”, and he just hopes they can continue to be LUCKY.
Cus… you know… those piles of drywall and lumber are MUCH more important than our LIVES… right?
The “Normalization of Deviance”…
————————————————————————————
Comment by: Ski Saunders – April 17 at 11:30 PM
Yarnell was a tragedy.. Avoidable? Maybe.. Easy to second guess in hindsight.. Bad stuff happens to awesome people.. I wear a 19 sticker on my wildland hat.. Also I think of those in Mann gulch and Storm king mountain and mendo national forest as I roll to a wildfire call.. And a good dozen other places where firemen died.. I believe we will have more tragedies like this because people can’t know when a real blowup is going to happen.. Mind your 10s and 18s people.. I have rolled a call or two where we violated a bunch of them and always had them in my mind when I did so.. Here we are fighting fire down hill after dark in unfamiliar ground with fire raging up the hill at us.. Afterward I think back on how lucky we were and how I hope to not do it again but reality says it just may and.. Hopefully we may be lucky again.. Rest peacefully yarnell 19!
————————————————————————————
‘Ski Saunders’ own PUBLIC Facebook page is here…
https://www.facebook.com/ski.saunders?fref=ufi&rc=p
He is a firefighter who lives near Santa Rosa, California.
He is ( apparently ) an EMT/Firefighter for the Westport Volunteer Fire Department.
It does not surprise me at he Ski Saunders attitude.
Lots of crews are trying to make names for themselves, being the “bad ass” crew that overhead can count on in dicey situations to “make it happen”. I have seen them do some pretty strange stuff just to get a “rep” for being bad ass. I have seen crews that will not shower on a full 14 day tour, cause they love wearing the dirt like a badge of honour, they wont put on clean Nomex, if its stained with soot and chainsaw fuel and oil, even better, cause you look more bad assed…In some cases we have told crews that if you do not wash your hands, you will not be allowed to get in line for your meals. Its a potential health hazard.
Look at todays younger crowd… Adrenaline junkies trying to out do each other and them selves… Rock climbing, extreme mountain biking, X-Games, Red Bull I could go on forever. Part of the reason is todays technology.. The internet… You take a digital picture of you or your buddy doing a risky thing (on or off fire line), you post it to facebook, everyone sees you are badass, next thing you know someone forwards it onto someone else, next thing you know it goes viral… How do you think the extreme athletes get sponsors coming to them??
The dynamics of trying to become a bad ass are even worse within the crew ranks… Rookies trying to prove themselves so that they fit into the crew.
Scenario: Crew Boss and Supervisor say here is the plan for the day (a bit risky, lets say, not suicide mission)… Which of the below noted statements do you think would come out of the rookies mouth?
a) Excuse me sir, when we took our training, we learned the 10 and 18 and according to what we are about to do its contradicting Rule # X and Orders X,Y and Z. Should we reconsider..???
b) Hell yeah, giddy up, Boo Yah….
All fire crews world wide are more risk takers than anyone gives them credit for. Extremely safe and cautious crews get tagged as “pussies”, the other extreme get called “bad ass”… Which name would you want associated with your crews reputation???
On the morning they would all DIE…. the Granite Mountain Hotshots assembled in the ‘ready room’ at Station 7 and… as they would usually do… wrote down their own ‘readiness state’ on some whiteboard there on the wall.
NO ONE listed their ‘ready state’ on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2016 as any higher than about 60 percent…
…but Brendan McDonough wrote down HIS ‘ready state’ as…
HELL YEAH!
I-am-immortal dipshits can try to kill THEMSELVES all day long if they want ( and they do )… but it’s supposed to be up to the ADULTS who are responsible for their behavior in a workplace to make sure they don’t succeed at it.
Even in Shakespeare’s time… ( and ALWAYS ) the ‘teenagers’ and ‘young men’ were playing the same “Look at what a badass I am” game.
“I would there were no age between sixteen and three-and-twenty, or that youth would sleep out the rest; for there is nothing in the between but getting wenches with child, wronging the ancientry, stealing, fighting”
William Shakespeare
A-winter-s-tale, act-3, scene-3
So we are back to ‘culture’ again… and what is ALLOWABLE ( and even ENCOURAGED ).
And make no mistake… ‘culture’ can KILL.
Actually… did rocksteady just absolutely ‘nail it’?
Do we know now EXACTLY what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013?
Even the ADULTS making the decisions out there on the ridge were still just over-the-top gung-ho can-do ranger-danger Pukie-the-clown bad-decisons-with-good-outcomes-is-how-we-roll save-structures-for-God-and-Country fucking juvenile delinquents with no ACTUAL adult supervision?
Rocksteady is 100% correct with his assessment of the machismo that is completely blatant on many handcrews that I have worked around in my 18 seasons of fighting wildland fires. Every year at my Fire Refresher, I preach to the younger firefighters that this job is not about who is the most physically fit or strongest, the one’s who succeed are always more mentally strong.
Many handcrews are so concerned about the perception of what others (overhead and/or other crews) think, they will take on “riskier” assignments in order to “prove” themselves. If they impress the “right” people, maybe they’ll get better assignments or stay on the fire for a longer period of time, which equals more $$$! Basically, more risk equates to more $$$, which can lead to a better reputation amongst the fire community, which can lead to more assignments, which equals more $$$! See what I did there?
Reply to Methods post on April 20, 2016 at 12:57 pm
>> Method said…
>>
>> See what I did there?
Yep. All too clearly.
Let us hope it is a small percentage if not they better start bringing BODY Bags to all the fires cause their going to need them as my old friend would say.
I am not hearing that from the current FF I talk to here in Twin Falls and Boise. If it is Type 2 crews and City and State Volunteers then there needs to be a real shake up.
WTKTT there never was Danger Rangers into the 90’s so will hope that is not a new norm.
Some crews trying to make a name for them selves are playing with DYNAMITE . This may be an explanation for some of the 10 and 18 are old or not relevant from several FF who have posted here and other places. That is just dam scary.
In 1973 when I was on the Safety First Sensing team we never in countered that through out R5 where our team hit every Forest and most districts all FF or red carded people that we could talk to and let them give us feed back.
I had 3 Spanish American Fire crews AD here on the Sawtooth NF 76 thru 82 They were formed in the Late 70’s. They were recognized for their work and not the chances they took They also had a excellent Safety record during that entire time.
Bob the new generation are born and raised adrenaline junkies. Not like the old days. Sure we did some cow tipping 🙂 but not triple backflips on a motorbike or jump off the Eiffel Tower wearing a squirrel suit
Tried to post this from my cell last night but botched my user name so its in moderation hell..
Bob, you have to realize that the generation of nowadays is born and raised adrenaline junkies. They watch it all of the time on TV, internet etc and try a lot of this stuff themselves….
Back in the old days, the craziest thing was maybe “cow tipping”, not doing triple backflips on a moped or jumping off the Eiffel Tower with a wingsuit on (aka squirrel suit)..
Years ago, on a Monday morning, the talk would be about drinkin beer, 4×4’s and chasing the ladies. Now the crew conversations are about recipes for exotic foods, extreme mountain biking, white water kayaking, rock climbing, etc etc.
A lot of the crew people I know spent more on buying a mountain bike than they did on their car or truck…
It is a change that needs to be realized.
In my opinion… it is part of the problem…
Well I figured that. I was under the impression thru Directives and Training and The Supervisors that those things would be a no starter.
Hell we are all a bit adrenalin junkies nothing new there.
Pushing that envelope on the Job against the rules seems a little out of whack.
I was seeing this in several statements on different threads.
I still do not think it is wide spread. There are a lot of good supervisors out there that would not put up with it especially teams on Fires.
Any way thanks for the info.
.
Unfortunately Bob, as our workforce ages, those young crazy buggers from a few years ago are now becoming the supervisors…. And they tolerate it..
Rocksteady has a point there. Ted tells me of some that did not consider themselves fire fighters until they had been in a burnover. Some had even purposely gotten into a burn over just to prove they were bad ass. But it is not bad ass when the bosses send you down into a trap under their watch as we saw at Yarnell. Good if you want to burn your own ass–no one ought to put much to that, but when you risk the lives of your comrades then you need to be up for negligence charges and fired,
Reply to Charlie post on April 20, 2016 at 7:27 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> when you risk the lives of your comrades then you need to be
>> up for negligence charges and fired,
And not necessarily in that order.
They had been watching a blowup since early morning–I know-we watched it–it was just that they went against the odds of a blowback despite bad weather conditions. Where was the promised air support when the shit hit the fan?
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on April 18, 2016 at 7:45 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> If donut and his friend got together and talked to God then maybe they got
>> the wrong message back. The Doce fire is that one right west of Prescott
>> then that is baloney about it being a different thing here. The conditions were
>> approximately identical. Plenty of manzanita and all the weather reports of
>> wind change and high velocity causing the same problems. Joy and I drive
>> by there quite regularly, her husband every day. If you need photos of all the
>> manzanita in that area we can provide.
>>
>> The Doce fire is easily reviewed. You have to pass through the burn area
>> on the way to Prescott from Skull Valley. There is about 2 miles of burned
>> area, all in manzanita with boulders and steep hills around there.
>> Adjoining to the west along the highway some more manzanita like the
>> Yarnell Death Basin. You damn sure Do Not want to be caught in that shit
>> if a blaze starts up.
Sonny… you are exactly right… and in case you ( and others ) were not aware… the actual April/Beta ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride Guide’ says exactly what you just said… that you can EASILY SEE the ‘similarities’ between the ‘Doce’ fuel loads and topography and what was present in Yarnell right from the HIGHWAY.
And they ( the authors of the Staff Ride Guide ) are actually TELLING their ‘Facilitators’ to POINT THIS OUT to ALL the ‘Staff Ride Participants’ on the drive from Prescott down to Yarnell.
The following page from the April/Beta ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’ has specific ‘talking points’ that are supposed to be ‘mentioned’ and ‘discussed’ DURING the travel from Prescott down to Yarnell.
Specifically… at ‘Milepost 12’ along Iron Springs Road from Prescott to Yarnell the ‘Facilitators’ are SUPPOSED to point out all the SIMILARITIES in the fuels ( type, height, density, etc. ) and the topography between the Doce, West Spruce and then the Yarnell Fire.
The Facilitators are also SUPPOSED to then point out that the ‘resources’ responding to Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013 ( including Granite Mountain ) all SHOULD have been ‘fully aware’ of these SIMILARITIES and were ‘experienced with the fuel type and topography’ of Yarnell.
From PDF page 5 of the April/Beta ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’…
——————————————————————————————-
Page Title: Travel Map to Stand 1 ( Travel from Prescott to Yarnell )
Facilitator’s Notes for Milepost 12 along Iron Springs Road from Prescott to Yarnell
– Similar fuels, weather, & topography associated with Doce, West Spruce, and Yarnell Hill fires. Make note of fuel types, fuel height, and density.
– Weaver Mountains and area of Yarnell Hill Fire should be in view to the SW of this point.
– Familiarity among local responders: Prescott IHC and Granite Mtn IHC; initial attack and extended attack personnel on all three fires included same local multi-agency personnel.
– June 1990; the Prescott National Forest had a Doce Fire in the same area as the 2013 Doce fire. In that year, the AZ Dept. of Corrections Perryville fire crew was assigned to the Doce Fire only to find themselves in a burn over 11 days later with 6 fatalities on the Dude Fire, June 26th, 1990 on the Payson Ranger District, Tonto NF. The area of the Dude Fire has similar fuels to these fires.
——————————————————————————————-
So that is what the people authoring this official ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’ are telling their own ‘Facilitators’ to POINT OUT to all ‘Staff Ride participants’ DURING the drive down from Prescott to Yarnell.
How SIMILAR the ‘Doce’ and ‘West Spruce’ and ‘Yarnell Hill’ fires really were with regards to fuel type and fuel loads and topography and ( hence ) ‘expected fire behavior’ that day in Yarnell.
So when former Granite Mountain Hotshot Bee Tschorn had this to say ( in PUBLIC, on David Turbyfill’s’ Facebook page ) about 12 hours ago…
———————————————————————————————————
Comment by: Bee Tschorn
Anyone that thinks that the weather was the same on the Dosie fire is an uneducated firefighter
Anyone that thinks that the fuel type was the same as equally as uneducated
———————————————————————————————————-
Then the ‘uneducated firefighters’ he is referring to are also the authors of the official Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride… such as Fuels Expert Don Boursier of Arizona Forestry, OMNA International employee and former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis, ‘Brit Rosso’ of USFS ‘Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center’… etc. etc. etc.
If former Granite Mountain Hotshot Bee Tschorn ( or anyone? ) has a problem with someone saying that the fuel types and loads and the topography in Yarnell were ‘similar’ to the ‘Doce’ fire… and that Granite Mountain SHOULD have been fully aware of this and known exactly what to expect in Yarnell… then he needs to take that up with his ‘brothers’ who are authoring the actual Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride for the USFS “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center”.
If you read carefully above… the authors of the ‘Staff Ride’ are actually REFUTING what Gary Cordes had to say about how the reason things all went to shit in Yarnell was simply because the fire “exceeded our expectations”.
According to what the Staff Ride authors are saying in their ‘Facilitators Guide’… that should definitely have NOT been the case on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Everyone involved with that fire ( Gary Cordes and Granite Mountain included ) should have had the correct FAMILIARITY with the fuel loads and the terrain and the expected weather to KNOW how to set the correct ‘expectations’ for fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire… and how to keep themselves and the people they were responsible for ‘safe’ while in that workplace.
I may be wrong but I think you WTKTT may be referring to a comment I made down in the weeds about what Cordes said regarding the fire behavior on Yarnell. You said they “should have had the correct familiarity with the fuel loads and the terrain and the expected weather to KNOW how to set the correct ‘expectations’ for fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire… and how to keep themselves and the people they were responsible for ‘safe’ while in that workplace.” And I asked below since you referred to amateur vs professional, what makes a professional a professional? What’s Cordes’ training records look like? When was the last time Cordes needed to set three trigger points, believe they were accurate, then NOT adjust them when weather updates were given? Did Cordes not get the weather update at 1526? I don’t believe he did. If a person isn’t receiving all the inputs then the decisions they make are already skewed and this is one frustrating and dangerous aspect of fighting fire, having to rely on information to be delivered from a human being down the chain and then it doesn’t happen–a person can only know what they know and the information that was given. Also figure in that Cordes was not strictly a wild land guy and this elevates the professional/amateur experiences and expectations in the wild land arena.
Good question
I know that Marsh and GM got the weather forecast I can not remember if Cordes did.
If You did not catch it earlier I hate trigger points but there were several set on this fire way to tight to the burning conditions. There was not much leeway between the trigger points and time to exit as well as notify the home owners to evacuate.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 19, 2016 at 7:34 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>> I know that Marsh and GM got the weather forecast
>> I can not remember if Cordes did.
See the response to ‘gizmo’ directly below.
He got it. No question.
What Gary Cordes did NOT do was then ‘adjust his trigger points’ in any way, shape or form, even after being told ( at 3:30 PM ) that there were going to be complete fireline reversals being hit with 40-50 mph winds.
He just continued to rely on the ‘trigger points’ he had set that MORNING… and everything went to shit when the fire did exactly what it was predicted to do circa 3:30 PM.
Cordes then also just ‘fell back’ on some bullshit explanation that the fire had “exceeded my expectations”.
The problem wasn’t the fire.
The problem was Cordes not adjusting his ‘expectations’ even once being given the information that should have caused him to do that.
This was all covered in the ADOSH report, and the resulting historic citations and penalties for that screwed-up Arizona Forestry workplace.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If You did not catch it earlier I hate trigger points but
>> there were several set on this fire way to tight to the
>> burning conditions. There was not much leeway
>> between the trigger points and time to exit as well
>> as notify the home owners to evacuate.
See above. Gary Cordes DID receive the critical weather report… but then did NOTHING to adjust either his ‘expectations’ or his ‘trigger points’ he had set that morning.
Was this lack of acknowledging pending weather conditions due to also to Cordes insufficient experience as a leader? Would the mandate to show up at Yarnell to protect structures also be a failure on leaders to both disregard weather and inexperience at fighting fires, leading to the death of the 19? It would seem both inexperience and disregard for conditions had much to do with the Yarnell failure.
Bob, I am certain if you were here bossing this crew, you would not have had to rely on a weather report since you would have been looing to the Norteast since the fire was headed that way. You would have noticed dark clouds and lightening in the distance some 30 miles distance since early morning–And you and every experienced wild land fire fighter of a long time would have immediately known a weather change was eminent whether or not you ever got one call about the situation.
Reply to gizmo post on April 19, 2016 at 3:56 pm
>> gizmo said…
>>
>> I may be wrong but I think you WTKTT may be referring to a comment
>> I made down in the weeds about what Cordes said regarding the fire
>> behavior on Yarnell.
Actually, I wasn’t. I’m not sure which comment of yours you are referring to.
Can you post a ‘link’ to it? ( Right click the date on any comment, and then select ‘Copy Link Location’ and then paste it back into a message ).
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> You said they “should have had the correct familiarity
>> with the fuel loads and the terrain and the expected weather
>> to KNOW how to set the correct ‘expectations’ for fighting
>> the Yarnell Hill Fire… and how to keep themselves and the
>> people they were responsible for ‘safe’ while in that workplace.”
What I was pointing out was that it seems that PDF page 4 of the official Yarnell Hill Staff Ride itself is telling their own ‘Facilitators’ to be sure and ‘point out’ to participants of the ‘Staff Ride’, during the drive from Prescott to Yarnell, that YES… the (quote) “local multi-agency personnel” who were called upon to respond to the Yarnell Hill Fire all SHOULD have had this ‘correct familiarity’ regarding fuels, topography, and the potential for ‘extreme fire behavior’.
The Staff Ride Guide is also telling the ‘Facilitators’ to be SURE and point out something ELSE that the (quote) “local multi-agency personnel” responding to Yarnell should have ALSO been fully aware of… and that is that (quote) “the area of the Dude Fire” ( and the resulting historic fatalities there ) also had “similar fuels”.
So ( apparently ) the authors of the official Yarnell Hill Staff Ride itself are the ones who seem to WANT their ‘Facilitators’ to point all these things out to the participants DURING the drive down from Prescott to Yarnell.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> And I asked below since you referred to
>> amateur vs professional, what makes a professional a professional?
Well… starting with Merriam Webster…
PROFESSIONAL
: of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession.
: engaged in one of the learned professions.
: characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical STANDARDS of a profession.
AMATEUR
: a person who does something poorly
: a person who is not skillful at a job or other activity.
: one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science
One of the ‘tounge and cheek’ definitions of a ‘professional’ that I have heard is just ‘an amateur who knows how to hide his/her mistakes’.
And there is that other ‘famous’ quote…
“If you think its expensive to hire a professional to do a job, wait until you hire an amateur!”.
But seriously… I think an answer to your actual question “What makes a profesisonal a professional?” that would be commonly understood, and hard to argue with, would be something along the lines of…
Someone who can do what they, themselves, SAY they can do ( their ‘professed profession’, if you will ) in a fully competent, excellent manner and according to all the established RULES and REQUIREMENTS for that ‘profession’… versus someone who FAILS to do so.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> What’s Cordes’ training records look like?
None of the investigators ( SAIT or ADOSH ) ever even ASKED Cordes or his employer ( Central Yavapai County ) to supply his ‘training records’.
The closest we get ( in the public evidence record ) to any kind of ‘detail’ about that is when the ADOSH investigators were asking Cordes if he actually had the specific ‘SPGS’ rating that most of the other people that had testified said they ‘assumed’ he had… since he was the ‘acting SPGS1’ in Yarnell on Sunday.
That’s when Gary Cordes himself seemed to say he did NOT have that specific red-card rating at all. That he considered himself just a ‘DIVS’ with (granted) a fair amount of experience with ‘structure protection efforts’ ( since he was primarily a structural FF and not a Wildland FF ).
Keep in mind… to this day… there is NO RESOURCE ORDER that appears anywhere in the Yarnell Hill Fire documents to indicate that Gary Cordes was ever even ‘ordered up’ to work the fire at all… in ANY capacity. According to all the official documents turned over by Arizona Forestry regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire, Gary Cordes was never even there at all, or was just ‘freelancing’ the whole time.
That’s when the ADOSH investigators decided to try and VERIFY with Cordes right there during his interview, what ‘red-card ratings’ he really did ( or didn’t ) have.
So in answer to your question ( What’s Cordes’ training records look like? )… the following is from Gary Cordes’ own mouth during his ADOSH interview, and it’s the only detail ( that I am aware ) about his actual red-card ‘qualifications’ anywhere in the public evidence record…
Q = Bruce Hanna – ADOSH investigator
A = Gary Cordes – SPGS1 in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013
—————————————————————————————
53 Q: You have a lot of different red card, red card certifications?
54
55 A: I have a few red card certifications, yeah.
56
57 Q: Okay. Uh, Barry, do you need to know any of that or (Dave)?
58
59 Q1: Uh yeah, that’d help if we could hear it.
60
61 A: Um, I’m uh, Strike Team Engine Task Force leader and Divs.
62
63 Q: Task force leader and division supervisor.
64
65 A: And I have uh, B-Sawyer as well.
66
67 Q: Okay.
68
69 A: (Unintelligible). It’s been awhile since I’ve looked at it. Engine boss, and
70 paramedic.
—————————————————————————————
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> When was the last time Cordes needed to set three trigger points,
>> believe they were accurate, then NOT adjust them when weather
>> updates were given?
I don’t know if he had EVER had to do that before, or even if he had, whether he had EVER done it ‘successfully’.
No investigator ever asked him those questions.
This would be the same person who, even months after the incident, was still describing the size of the ‘clearing’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch at 20 to 30 ACRES, which is WILDLY WRONG. That’s more than 8-10 times the size of the actual ‘safe area’ there at the Boulder Springs Ranch.
And this is also the man who ‘assigned’ that ‘area’ ( which he couldn’t even accurately describe the size of even months later ) to Granite Mountain as their ‘predetermined safety zone’ on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Did Cordes not get the weather update at 1526? I don’t believe he did.
Your belief is incorrect.
In the scant ‘interview notes’ from the SAIT regarding THEIR interview with Gary Cordes… there is only this one line… but it does indicate that he heard Byron Kimball’s critical weather update at 1530 ( 3:30 PM ) that Sunday…
15:30 – Heard of storm to the north.
However… in his ADOSH interview… the investigators were wondering why Gary Cordes made NO MENTION of having heard that critical weather update in his own Unit Log… and they asked him directly if he really had heard it.
He told the ADOSH investigators that he definitely DID hear it.
Q2 = Dave Larsen – WFA / ADOSH investigator ( Rest in Peace )
A = Gary Cordes – SPGS1 in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013
——————————————————————————–
1369 Q2: Okay. Uh, just wondering in, in your log, you never mentioned the wind
1370 advisory from, from uh, whoever.
1371
1372 A: Right.
1373
1374 Q2: Did you hear it?
1375
1376 A: Yeah, I did hear that. That was prior to the uh, um, that was obviously prior
1377 to the event occurring.
1378
1379 Q2: Okay. Um, that was prior to the fire turned 90 degree from northeast…
1380
1381 A: Right.
1382
1383 Q2: …to south?
1384
1385 A: Right. Yeah.
1386
1387 Q2: Okay.
———————————————————————————
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> If a person isn’t receiving all the inputs then the decisions they make
>> are already skewed and this is one frustrating and dangerous aspect
>> of fighting fire, having to rely on information to be delivered from
>> a human being down the chain and then it doesn’t happen.
Of course. And when the ‘communicating’ is BAD enough… people can DIE.
That’s true of a whole LOT of ‘professions’, not just Wildland Firefighting.
In the case of Yarnell… one of the best examples is how Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’, with Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark onboard, arrived over Yarnell at exactly 11:58 AM that Sunday… and within 30 minutes… they KNEW that the fire was GOING to go ‘into Yarnell’ THAT day… during THAT burn cycle… and that’s when they conceived of their plan to just lay that long line of retardant ‘out there’ just northwest of Yarnell to try and protect the town. Warbis and Lenmark testified that after their ‘size up’ of the situation… they were so sure that Granite Mountain was ‘out of the game’ and performing USELESS work… and that the Blue Ridge Hotshots were doing nothing but sitting on their asses around their Crew Carriers… that SOMEONE had to at least TRY and do SOMETHING to protect Yarnell that day.
But NONE of that IMPORTANT information reached the people it should have.
Warbis and Lenmark had this ‘conversation’ with DIVSZ Rance Marquez, who then failed to pass ANY of this ‘advanced warning’ from a bona-fide Air Attack on to anyone in operations.
If that information alone had reached OPS… that EARLY in the day ( circa 1:00 PM ), there would/should have been PLENTY of time for ‘Operations’ to adjust their tactics and instruct Granite Mountain to ‘come down’ with PLENTY of time for them to return to their own Carriers and leave the area just like the Blue Ridge Crew was able to do ( safely ).
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> a person can only know what they know and the information that was given.
The ‘C’ in LCES stands for ‘Communicate CLEARLY and EFFECTIVELY’… but that also doesn’t mean it’s some kind of ‘one way street’.
Communicating CLEARLY and EFFECTIVELY with co-workers means also anticipating what you might NOT know… and ASK QUESTIONS until you are SURE you DO know everything you need to know.
This is why it took almost TWO HOURS to find Granite Mountain’s bodies on the floor of that blind box canyon.
If the testimony we can see is to be believed… the people that needed to know exactly WHERE they were and WHAT they were doing were not ( in your words ) “given that information”.
Gary Cordes is the ONLY person in ‘fire command’ who has testified that he knew EXACTLY what Granite Mountain was doing, and where they were going.
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley himself has said ( in public )… that once all the evidence was looked at he, himself, came to the conclusion that with regards to Eric Marsh and his ‘Communications’ that day… it was (quote) “almost like he was being DELIBERATELY VAUGE” ( endquote ).
But that ‘conclusion’ was ( of course ) NOT mentioned in the SAIR report.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Also figure in that Cordes was not strictly a wild land guy and this
>> elevates the professional/amateur experiences and expectations
>> in the wild land arena.
You can be a cab driver and know that when someone tells you 40-50 mph winds are about to hit a fireline ( and totally reverse it )… it’s going to start moving a LOT faster than it did when you first set any ‘trigger points’ that morning and then ADJUST your ‘trigger points’ accordingly.
Gary Cordes did NOT do that.
He admits he heard that crucial weather advisory at 3:30 PM… but proceeded to make NO ADJUSTMENTS to ANY of his ‘trigger points’ from that morning… and then just ‘fell back’ on some explanation that it “exceeded my expectations”.
What Cordes FAILED to do was ADJUST HIS EXPECTATIONS based on ‘new information’ that even he admits he received.
This was all covered in the ADOSH investigation and became the basis for some of the actual CITATIONS being issues. Management was NOT REACTING correctly to even the information they WERE getting… and it all resulted in any number of ‘near entrapments’ that day in that workplace… for which ADOSH levied Historic fines and the most they were allowed to by Arizona law.
WTKTT,
you said:
“What Cordes FAILED to do was ADJUST HIS EXPECTATIONS based on ‘new information’ that even he admits he received.”
He did not possess the appropriate background in the fire service to be able to properly process and react to this information. He was a structural based Battalion Chief. 2-3 acres DOES seem like 20-30 acres to a lot of these people. (I told everyone of our standing joke of fire size estimates by structural firefighters when they arrive on scene – you can just about figure it’s a tenth of the size they think it is) We see this same ‘underestimate’ with Willis determination of a tennis court being large enough for safety zone.
“Gary Cordes is the ONLY person in ‘fire command’ who has testified that he knew EXACTLY what Granite Mountain was doing, and where they were going. ”
Why did he not speak up in the search for GM? Wouldn’t this have saved time in locating the position of GM?
I’m going to let you in on a little dirty secret, WTKTT. I’m going to do this because I like you. There are a lot of people in the fire world that would string me up for this if they could find me and I also am concerned for Sonny’s health in hearing this. Ready? I’m going to whisper it:
[Nobody makes any money unless the fire gets big.]
To make the big bucks, you have to have a big fire that’s going to burn into multiple operational periods. You have to gain qualifications at higher positions so you get the higher pay. You have to make sure you get dispatched to it and get deployed at as high a position as you can. That’s why you are seeing fires with multiple Ops chiefs, lots of DIVS, Group Specialists. you know, heavy on the upper management side. Pencil-whipped non-qualified, ego-maniac, structural charlatans abound in today’s wildfire world. Problem? You tell me.
Woodsman
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Did Cordes not get the weather update at 1526? I don’t believe he did.
WTKTT says:
“Your belief is incorrect.
In the scant ‘interview notes’ from the SAIT regarding THEIR interview with Gary Cordes… there is only this one line… but it does indicate that he heard Byron Kimball’s critical weather update at 1530 ( 3:30 PM ) that Sunday…
15:30 – Heard of storm to the north.
However… in his ADOSH interview… the investigators were wondering why Gary Cordes made NO MENTION of having heard that critical weather update in his own Unit Log… and they asked him directly if he really had heard it.
He told the ADOSH investigators that he definitely DID hear it.”
Q2 = Dave Larsen – WFA / ADOSH investigator ( Rest in Peace )
A = Gary Cordes – SPGS1 in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013
——————————————————————————–
1369 Q2: Okay. Uh, just wondering in, in your log, you never mentioned the wind
1370 advisory from, from uh, whoever.
1371
1372 A: Right.
1373
1374 Q2: Did you hear it?
1375
1376 A: Yeah, I did hear that. That was prior to the uh, um, that was obviously prior
1377 to the event occurring.
1378
1379 Q2: Okay. Um, that was prior to the fire turned 90 degree from northeast…
1380
1381 A: Right.
1382
1383 Q2: …to south?
1384
1385 A: Right. Yeah.
1386
1387 Q2: Okay.
———————————————————————————
My belief is correct and your belief is giving too much credit to the scant SAIT and the ADOSH interview you referred to. I don’t believe the SAIT time log saying
15:30–Heard of storm to the north
is extensive enough of a description of weather that was received to prove with absolutes that this is the very important updated weather at 1526. This could have been a variety of weather descriptions he heard of from the north, including Prescott being weathered in, or Marty Cole passing on the weather information he witnessed while driving to the fire, or by simply listening to NOAA on his handheld, or it could have been a plain old typo in the SAIR.
And the ADOSH interview, if you kept going to line 1397 “I was thinking that was towards um, that was somewhere around two o’clockish, somewhere in that timeframe.” How does that translate to hearing the updated weather at 1526? Read on in the interview and there’s no mention of it. Line 1418 “There were storms uh, north of the fire, northeast of the fire um, and that we were anticipating some heavy outflows um, and I think they said 40, 40 mile an hour winds if I remember right.” This description could have very easily been from the 1402 weather report.
Back to the original point of Cordes not adjusting his trigger points, I agree wholeheartedly with Woodsman in its not in his wheelhouse or in his background–he is a Battalion Chief not a hardcore seen a shit load of fire guy. This was my point about your point of amateur vs professional, I didn’t need a definition of them, as what I was getting at is a BC does not a professional wild land firefighter make. He was a Structure Protection on Yarnell and yet he was making decisions that were wild land based–all three trigger points were wild land that would ultimately effect where he was supposed to be ‘working’ and protecting. And by ‘working’ I mean making a presence with a few resources in an unsaveable town. Not receiving the 1526 weather caused a non-reaction.
Something to consider Woodsman, as you said, Cordes did own up to hearing GM moving to their ER, and when the search was on for them post deployment, someone was giving B33 clues as to where they might be. Go listen to the audio if you haven’t because B33 was getting accurate clues.
Reply to gizmo post on April 20, 2016 at 11:40 am
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> My belief is correct and your belief is giving too much credit
>> to the scant SAIT and the ADOSH interview you referred to.
I am not giving ‘too much credit’ to that one line in the SAIR.
I am only giving it ‘credit’. It says what it says… and it says it’s something Cordes says he heard at 1530… which is exactly when the critical Byron Kimball weather update took place over an open TAC channel.
It is Gary Cordes’ ADOSH testimony ( and the specific questioning from the ADOSH investigators ) that actually CONFIRMS Gary Cordes really did hear that 1530 weather update about the expected ’40-50 mph’ winds approaching the area.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> And the ADOSH interview, if you kept going to line
>> 1397 “I was thinking that was towards um, that was
>> somewhere around two o’clockish, somewhere in that
>> timeframe.” How does that translate to hearing
>> the updated weather at 1526?
It doesn’t. Cordes was mistaken about the time.
The ADOSH investigators were specifically asking him about the weather update that contained the reference to the approaching 40-50 mph winds. Cordes confirms he DID hear THAT ‘update’… but he can only be talking about Byron Kimball’s 1530 broadcast… because that’s the only one that specifically mentioned these expected winds… “within the half hour”.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Line 1418 “There were storms uh, north of the fire, northeast
>> of the fire um, and that we were anticipating some heavy
>> outflows um, and I think they said 40, 40 mile an hour winds
>> if I remember right.” This description could have very easily
>> been from the 1402 weather report.
Nope. The 1530 report is the only time Byron Kimball mentioned those kinds of specific ‘wind gusts’ “within the half hour” and was now announcing the ‘numbers’ for the expected winds just like the National Weather Service itself had just announced.
Keep in mind that this same 1530 weather report we are now talking about is ALSO trying to be ‘dialed back’ by at least an HOUR in the information contained in the official Yarnell Hill Staff Ride Guide.
On the page from the SAIR that originally reported an incorrect time of 1550 for Byron Kimball’s “40-50 mph winds and fire line reversals” radio broadcast that the authors of the ‘Yarnell Staff Ride’ guide have just ‘dumped’ into the ‘Staff Ride Guide’… they have also now added an ‘inset box’ to the Guide itself on that SAIR page dump which is trying to ‘dial back’ even that original incorrect time of 1550.
The authors of the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’ are now saying ( in that inset box ) that this critical weather advisory happened ONE HOUR EARLIER that what the SAIR first reported. They now say it happened at 1450.
That is even MORE WRONG than the original SAIR reported.
That critical weather update from Kimball was captured in a timestamped radio recording. He began broadcasting that critical weather update at 9 second before 1530 ( 1529:51 )… and he was finished with it by 1531.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Back to the original point of Cordes not adjusting his
>> trigger points, I agree wholeheartedly with Woodsman
>> in its not in his wheelhouse or in his background–he is a
>> Battalion Chief not a hardcore seen a shit load of fire guy.
>> This was my point about your point of amateur vs
>> professional, I didn’t need a definition of them, as what I
>> was getting at is a BC does not a professional wild land
>> firefighter make. He was a Structure Protection on Yarnell
>> and yet he was making decisions that were wild land based.
That’s correct.
Since there is no resource order for Cordes… we still don’t know what he was even ‘ordered up’ as… but there’s no question that even though he had already been up all night… he was being considered the defacto ‘Division Supervisor’ for that area of the fire down there on the south side.
He was making all the kinds of ‘decisions’ that would normally be made by an assigned ‘Division Supervisor’… and Operations was LETTING him do that regardless of whether he was qualified to be doing all that, or not.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> all three trigger points were wild land that would
>> ultimately effect where he was supposed to be
>> ‘working’ and protecting. And by ‘working’ I mean
>> making a presence with a few resources in an
>> unsaveable town. Not receiving the 1526 weather
>> caused a non-reaction.
Again… read Cordes’ ADOSH testimony.
He DID admit to ‘receiving’ the weather advisory that predicted the 40-50 mph wind event… and that was ONLY the 1530 one.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Something to consider Woodsman, as you said, Cordes
>> did own up to hearing GM moving to their ER, and when
>> the search was on for them post deployment, someone
>> was giving B33 clues as to where they might be. Go listen
>> to the audio if you haven’t because B33 was getting
>> accurate clues.
When?
Exactly which piece of ‘audio’ are you now basing THAT claim on?
Go and listen to the audio your own self.
From Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd’s video M2U00266, which was recording radio traffic on the Air To Ground channel FOLLOWING the ‘deployment’…
At exactly 4:49 PM ( plus 25 seconds )… and more than 10 minutes since Jesse Steed’s first botched-MAYDAY call had hit the A2G channel… we hear OPS2 Paul Musser himself ASKING ‘Bravo 33′ if THEY ( as yet ) have any frickin’ CLUE where Granite Mountain is/was actually located.
John Burfiend, in B33, says NO… they do NOT.
————————————————————–
+1:56 ( 1649:25 / 4:49:25 PM )
(OPS2 Paul Musser): Bravo three three, Operations Musser, do we have
any firm location on where they’re at?
+2:02 ( 1649:31 / 4:49:31 PM )
(Bravo 33 – Ah… no… I… I can’t… other than I would say the southeast corner a the fire. So… that’s the best I can do in there where we had that wind shift and it did a slope reversal… uh… is the best I can do for ya right now.
+2:20 ( 1649:49 / 4:49:49 PM )
(OPS2 Paul Musser): Affirmative.
——————————————————————-
Keep in mind that even at this time… just shy of 4:50 PM… both OPS2 Paul Musser and SPGS1 Gary Cordes were already down on the SOUTH side of the fire by the Ranch House Restaurant, where everyone had already been forming ‘groups’ and trying to figure out where the hell Granite Mountain might have actually been radioing from 10-11 minutes earlier, at 4:39 PM.
Just 1 minute and 24 seconds after we hear OPS2 Musser asking the ( clueless ) B33 if they have any idea where they are… and Burfiend basically says NO… Gary Cordes himself is heard in the same video now answering a radio call from newly arriving ‘Structure Group 3’.
At 4:51 PM… Gary Cordes confirms that he is already there on the SOUTH end of Yarnell itself, where everyone else had been gathering following the deployment and Cordes says he is already engaged in ‘structure protection’ down there and he already knows it is ‘dicey’ in the Glen Ilah subdivision there near the Ranch House Restaurant.
——————————————————————-
+3:44 ( 1651:13 / 4:51:13 PM )
(Structure Group Three): Structure group one, structure group three, on your TAC.
+3:50 ( 1651:19 / 4:51:19 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): TONE. Three, one, go ahead.
+3:58 ( 1651:27 / 4:51:27 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): TONE. Structure three, structure one, go ahead.
+4:02 ( 1651:31 / 4:51:31 PM )
(Structure Group Three): Yea… I have a type two crew here. We just pulled into Yarnell. Where do ya need us at?
+4:08 ( 1651:37 / 4:51:37 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): You can stage at the small… right there… right on the north side by the mini-storage… and why don’t you just take the north end a town. I’m down here on the SOUTH end.
+4:20 ( 1651:49 / 4:51:49 PM )
(Structure Group Three): Copy that. You want us to go back in the subdivision here… or just stage along the road?
NOTE: Yowell now seems to be arranging for Hulburd to ‘go and get’ Clawson and bring him back to their current location after Clawson has moved the ISUZU vehicle for the citizen.
+4:23 ( 1651:52 / 4:51:52 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): I’ll wait here by our vehicles… if you wanna go get him.
+4:25 ( 1651:54 / 4:51:54 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): It’s real dicey in the subdivision. Kinda use your judgement… uh… we’re just doin’ point protection… you know… bump and roll on it.
———————————————————-
So even though ( by 4:50 PM ) there had been PLENTY of time for Cordes to inform OPS2 Musser ( or anyone else ) of what he would later testify to being ‘certain’ of with regards to Granite Mountain’s actual intentions and location just prior to deployment…
…here we have proof positive that OPS2 Paul Musser had still NOT received that information, and he’s still asking B33 if THEY have any idea where GM is really located… and they, also, do NOT.
Again… WHAT ‘piece of audio’ are you referring to that seems to suggest to YOU that (quote) “B33 was getting accurate clues” about GM’s actual whereabouts?
I would have never thought anyone would rely on a weather report when you could clearly see the ominous dark clouds gathering with lightening flashes in the not too distant future. In Arizona and most places out west I know of, when you do see that situation you don’t care what the weather man says, you rely on knowing that there is going to be a shift in wind direction, wind speeds and highly unpredictable weather patterns. Isn’t that a part of the wild land fire fighter training at that academy? If not they need a few cowboys around there to help train those boys.
There is an old sailor saying that rainbow in the east sailor take heed, rainbow in the west, sailor at rest. I am not a sailor so don’t know how good that idea is but on land you at least in Arizona you can’t count on it. What you can count on is thunderstorms in the distance, weather will change for the land lubber.
For most of the late afternoon… SPGS1 Gary Cordes was ‘staged’ there at one of those concrete driveways along the Maughn Ranch white-rail fence, to the NORTH of Yarnell and on up towards where Hays Ranch Road intersects with Highway 89.
He had a CLEAR and UNOBSTRUCTED view of the entire ‘landscape’ to the north for that entire time.
Even if ALL of his radios has been ‘busted’ and he had been hearing nothing at all… he could/should still have easily ‘seen what was coming’… and started adjusting both his ‘expectations’ AND his ‘trigger points’ from that morning.
He didn’t.
**
** ARIZONA WILDFIRE AND INCIDENT MANAGEMENT ACADEMY ( AWIMA )
** HAS FINALLY PUBLISHED A ‘REPORT’ ABOUT THEIR 2016 CLASSES
** AND AWARDS BANQUET.
It’s been more than a month since the 2016 annual ‘Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy’ ( AWIMA ) classes took place back in early March of 2016… but just recently… the AWIMA finally got around to updating their own website and including the usual PDF file based ‘report’ about the 2016 Academy.
Other than 1 piece of external radio station ‘copy’ that appeared back during the week of the classes in March… they, themselves, seemed to be purposely NOT announcing who they gave their ‘2015 Southwest Firefighter of the Year Award’ to. There were photos posted immediately on their own AWIMA Facebook page of the ‘banquet’ where the awards are given out in the middle of the AWIMA week of classes… but even though ‘seeming’ to ‘report’ about their banquet in ‘real time’ ( and unlike previous years )… they, themselves, made NO MENTION of who actually got their ‘awards’ this year at this banquet of theirs.
Like they didn’t even WANT to ‘announce’ it ( publicly ), this year… or something.
It was only that 1 piece of external ‘radio copy’ where we learned that they gave their “2015 Firefighter of the Year” award to the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
Well… as it turns out… they have NOW finally gotten around to officially ‘announcing’ ( themselves ) that it was, in fact, the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” who received their award this year.
And despite previous reports… Brian Frisby himself WAS there at the Awards Banquet to ‘accept’ the “2015 Firefighter of the Year” award on behalf of the Blue Ridge Hotshots organization.
NOTE: That ‘previous report’ about Brian Frisby NOT being there to accept the AWIMA ‘2015 Southwest Firefighter of the Year’ award came from poster ‘Robert the Second’, back in Chapter 19 of this ongoing discussion. RTS actually attended this year’s AWIMA banquet.
—————————————————————————————-
>> On March 19, 2016 at 7:42 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Frisby was NOT there to accept the award and I don’t know if any
>> other BRHS did in his stead.
>>
>> I think it was a bribe for them being directed NOT to speak about the
>> YH Fire per the USDA OGC and NOT being allowed to participate in
>> any of the mandated YH Fire Staff Ride developments.
—————————————————————————————-
Here is the ‘new’ 2016 AWIMA ‘report’, complete with the photo of Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby ‘accepting’ their ‘award’ at the banquet itself…
Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy ( AWIMA )
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/
Choose ‘2016 report’ from the left-side menu… OR…
Here is a direct link to their recently posted ‘2016 report’…
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/Final-Report-2016.pdf
On PDF page 4 ( of 4 pages )…
————————————————————————
SOUTHWEST FIREFIGHTER OF THE YEAR AWARD
Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge IHC
Brian accepted the award for the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
They were nominated for this award because of their
invaluable service to wildland fire throughout the country.
PHOTO: ( Left to Right )…
AWIMA 2016 ‘Incident Commander’ Todd Abel
Blue Ridge Hotshots Superintendent Brian Frisby
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney
————————————————————————
The photograph above was, in fact, taken on the ‘stage’ there at the same place the annual ‘banquet’ was being held ( as per other photographs taken at the same banquet that night which also appear in their 2016 summary report ).
If that ‘presentation’ was ‘staged’ at some later time ( and was not made during the official banquet itself )… then they at least returned to the same exact ‘stage’ in the same exact room to take the photograph.
Still no word on anything Brian Frisby might have actually SAID when he ‘accepted’ the award at that AWIMA banquet.
This AWIMA 2016 report also contains some interesting information about where their ‘money’ actually comes from…
PDF page 2 ( of 4 pages )…
—————————————————————————
2016 Revenue Sources
NOTE: This is just a bar graph showing sources… ACTUAL ( specific ) amounts are not shown.
Approximately $160,000 – Registration Fees
Approximately $040,000 – Gila River Indian Community
Approximately $010,000 – Volunteer Fire Assistance ( Program )
Approximately $010,000 – Yavapai County Board of ?? ( cut off in graphic )
Approximately $040,000 – Ready Reserve Grant
Approximately $008,000 – Captain Crossfit
Approximately $005,000 – State Farm Insurance
Approximately $006,000 – Arizona Public Service
Approximately $006,000 – Raffle and Auction
Approximate TOTAL Revenue for 2016: $285,000
——————————————————————————
It also says that $26,722 in scholarships were ‘awarded’ this year, but other than that, there is no other ‘detail’ on EXPENDITURES such as salaries for AWIMA management, OPS personnel, instructors, possible facility rental fees, etc.
Followup…
The AWIMA has also now ( finally ) updated their own online page dedicated to their ‘Southwestern Firefighter of the Year’ award and it is now ( finally ) showing the 2015 ‘winners’… The Blue Ridge Hotshots.
Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy
Southwestern Firefighter of the Year Award
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/Wildland-Firefighter-of-the-Year.html
—————————————————————————
The 2015 Award Goes To:
The Blue Ridge Hotshots
Superintendent Brian Frisby accepted the engraved Pulaski award for the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
They were nominated for this award because of their invaluable service to Wildland Fire throughout the country.
PHOTO: ( Same photo used in their 2016 ‘report’ )… ( Left to Right )…
AWIMA 2016 ‘Incident Commander’ Todd Abel
Blue Ridge Hotshots Superintendent Brian Frisby
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney
—————————————————————————
WTKTT,
Thank you for the interesting information. I have re-reviewed the Arizona Wildfire Academy facebook page to check into what you are saying. I can view photos of the banquet there. I find the same background that is shown of Brian Frisby accepting the firefighter of the year award in other pictures of the 2016 Academy banquet. So after reading what you quoted above:
“>> On March 19, 2016 at 7:42 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Frisby was NOT there to accept the award and I don’t know if any
>> other BRHS did in his stead.
>>
>> I think it was a bribe for them being directed NOT to speak about the
>> YH Fire per the USDA OGC and NOT being allowed to participate in
>> any of the mandated YH Fire Staff Ride developments.”
And then comparing the facebook pictures of the 2016 Academy banquet to the picture on the Arizona Wildland academy website under the heading of ‘2016 Final Report,’ is sure as hell is a picture of Brian Frisby receiving the 2015 Firefighter of the Year award.
So, what the hell? Why would RTS lie about that? Was RTS actually not there when he said he was? Others have confirmed that he was there so that’s not it. All of the evidence clearly shows Brian Frisby accepting the award in person so why in the hell would someone lie about that? What is there to gain from lying about it? If it was a lie, what else has this person lied about? No wonder this entire ordeal is taking this long to crack.
Ok Bob, that’s your cue. Let’s hear it.
Woodsman
Oh, and one more thing. Does this photo make anybody else hair stand up on the back of their neck besides me? Are you seeing what I’m seeing? Uh huh, that’s right. Yep. Oh, you didn’t get it? Look at it again and really think about it this time.
https://www.facebook.com/WFFoundation/photos/a.10151675919740625.1073741825.23075020624/10153812668340625/?type=3&theater
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You are so quick to lay blame and fault. There is nothing to gain from lying because there are NO lies. WTF?
How about being in a side conversation or out of the room or some other distraction when the award was presented. Did you ever think of that as a possibility?
RTS,
No, I didn’t think of that as a possibility for at least 2 reasons:
1. You most certainly must know all the IHC superintendents in the SW being one yourself for so long. It must be a tight group so are you saying you didn’t know he was there at the banquet?
2. You chose to give information about it, in fact, you said Frisby “was NOT there to accept the award.” You emphasized ‘NOT’ by capitalizing that word. Some say that’s yelling or emphasis, I go with emphasis. You didn’t just say he wasn’t there, you emphasized that he was NOT. Why? If there are so many reasons for you not to be sure of that, why did you make that statement? And with such emphasis?
But now we find out that Frisby actually was there to receive the award. So go ahead, you have the floor. Explain the part I’m missing.
Also, I did not say you lied. I’m saying it has the appearance of a lie and I’m asking if you did and why? It seems like something unusual to lie about.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
This is what you posted: “So, what the hell? Why would RTS lie about that? Was RTS actually not there when he said he was? Others have confirmed that he was there so that’s not it. All of the evidence clearly shows Brian Frisby accepting the award in person so why in the hell would someone lie about that? What is there to gain from lying about it? If it was a lie, what else has this person lied about? No wonder this entire ordeal is taking this long to crack.”
The word “APPEARANCE” is not even in there.
I’m done here. After the RTS feeding frenzy a few weeks ago after the YHF Staff Ride debacle, with Gary and WTKTT and you and now this, I’m done. You guys can figure this out on your own.
Civil questions would be nice. you jump on the person without asking
what he has to say in a civil way.
Really Woodsman he lied or maybe he was not there?????
Maybe the award was not given till Friday when Brian could be there.
They gave another award that night as well.
I believe the banquet was on Thursday night I could be wrong.
I also believe that RTS left Friday the day after the Banquet ?
and did not stay that day for the ending ceremony.?
Again I believe and could be wrong.
If you look at the Info several others were given awards and have a personnel picture award with each description of the award.
Where is Brian’s individual picture?
If you note another person was awarded on Friday.
I apologize and step back.—-
The Awards ceremony was on Tuesday night not Thursday.
In a news release from the Last chapter it says one award was presented to an Individual. And the Fire fighter of the year award was awarded to the Blue Ridge Hot Shots and Brian Frisby. (Not Presented to them or Brian) Might indicate he was not there on Tuesday night and was presented with the award later.
Any way can we get back to asking CIVIL questions and not attacking each other.
When you attack you will get attacked seems to be happening more. Are we all frustrated and at a dead end here.
whats new?
You’re right, Bob. RTS, I apologize.
Woodsman
It takes a big man to do that hopefully RTS will accept.
So… I’m a little confused ( as usual ).
WHERE ( up above ) is the actual EXPLANATION that Woodsman was originally requesting?
RTS did not originally say…
“Frisby MIGHT have been there, I don’t know.”
OR
“I was out in the hall and missed that award”.
OR
“I don’t know if they even gave out that award the night I was there”.
Woodsman was correct when he pointed out what RTS did originally say…
>> Frisby was NOT there to accept
>> the award and I don’t know if any
>> other BRHS did in his stead.
The only way to read that is that RTS seemed to be sure the award WAS presented ( on the night he was there ).. but he was absolutely SURE that Brian Frisby was NOT there to accept it.
I am NOT calling ANYONE a ‘liar’.
Repeat… NOT calling ANYONE a ‘liar’.
I’m still just curious what the real ‘explanation’ is that Woodsman was asking about.
We know RTS was at the Tuesday awards Banquet.
We know because Holly said she talked to him and he talked to Holly.
I would say that is conformation. With out using RTS real name here which I think would be unproductive.
________________________________________
There are people here we do not know Like WTKTT that wish to keep there personnel name off here for what ever reason.
Like Gizmo and Woodsman that’s OK with me,
So with that we can say RTS did not see Brian at the Banquet.
I can also say he personally knows Brian Frisby and has talked to him on several occasions and has been at R3 HS annual get together’s..
So did Brian receive the award at a latter time?
At the same location the rewards were first given.
The original release did not show that a award was given and who got it and then it shows up with picture. SOOOOOOO I am open to suggestions as to what happened.
Occasionally the religious aspects of this tragedy come about. We talk about the Willis aspects and how Donut and his friend became converted, evangelicals, etc. Religion does have an effect on people and if you do not believe it go study the Jim Jones event and others that move people even to kill themselves by a number of over 900 souls in the Jones event. Look at those poor brain washed Arabs that strap explosives to themselves to appease Allah. You don’t see the bosses there (Imams) or whatever they call themselves killing themselves but they have mesmerized the people as do these preachers, etc. Mostly they are mesmerized themselves, except they say or believe God gives them exception because they have a supposed direct pipe line to god–whoever or whatever that is to their way of thinking. Those preachers shit, puke, and fuck the same as the rest of us but most of us are not brain capable or do not want to believe we are every bit as equal to those bull shitters.
Now I like the Irish Goddess Dana, she likes me too. You are in good potatoes when the Irish Goddess smiles upon you. The Irish song Danny Boy is a heart tearing song of real Irish life and yet applies much to the GMHS that were sacrificed here near Glen Isla. You may or may not like my religion–I have been drunk with Jesus himself more than once. Joy is a witness he has dropped me Crown Royal sealed in the middle of a desert hike right out of the skys–added a nice stainless flask full along with the bottle. I was needing it at the time–good medicine for a sad heart. Because I once fought aliens off with 40 round back to back clips on off a colt AR-15, my friend Psychic says I have alien protection. None fell–they were holograms and I figured that out later since I was the third best shot out of 300 men in basic training at Fort Bliss, June, 1968. That was with a worn out M-14 that I had to shoot to the right about 3 ft to hit the target with. Facts are what they are and that was because we grew up not shooting tin cans and paper targets, but every bullet had to bring in something we could eat.
But the aliens==so these fifty or so chased me across the desert for hours until suddenly a very bright light hovered over me. That must have been mid night or there about. The next day I found myself walking down the Southern Pacific Railroad toward Deming NM. I was maybe 15 miles out and about 10 mile NW of where the battle started. There is more to this but all I remembered at that point was firing on those aliens of about 3-3.5 in stature and with military helmets on., running and firing through the mesquite brush, then that bright light and nothing after. I was torn and tattered from running and firing through that brush so I know this happened.
These things are true things that happened same as me dragging an eighty two pound cross from Prescott Valley Flea Market up that hill ten miles to Prescott to a little church called Church on the Street right above the Court House Square. I thought they deserved a cross for feeding the poor. I was living on the Hasayampa at the time sluicing gold–but it was a good diversion and another numismatic experience. I won’t mention the part of me dancing naked, boot only when the skys filled with demons.
You see life lived is full of strange incidences. That I would be one to witness 19 young lives about to be eradicated in a few short minutes after passing them was a page in my life I could live without. Because I know the meaning of life, because I too lost my son, I had my heart torn as much as if those people had been with and near my son when he had his arm torn from his body due to overlooked and faulty equipment.
We never forget these problems. May the gods help us if we do not correct situations that cause these unwarranted deaths of our young heroes.
Joy, not in too good of health tonight==telling me use the Surprise Hospital, not Prescott, says it sounds like you had ten guiness beers. But what you say is true. And I say does it matter? Much I say. A lie accomplishes negative, Truth cleans the slate and is life.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post April 16, 2016 at 8:51 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> My psychic friend said that Marsh wanted to thank me from the other side.
>> She did not know what for but saw me stooping to pick something up off
>> the ground. Well it runs a chill down my back because Joy reminded me
>> that not long ago on Easter when we visited that memorial in Prescott all
>> the 19 in there had flowers but his spot did not. It appeared it had blown
>> from its vessel some distance from the spot, so I picked it up and stooped
>> down an put it there in his vessel. I don’t know if that is his actual grave
>> since WTKTT tells me many are buried else where but it looks like
>> 19 graves there.
Yes, Sonny. Eric Marsh is actually buried there where you replaced his flowers.
Here is who is actually buried there… and who is NOT…
Only 11 of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots are ‘actually’ buried there at that ‘special memorial site’ at the ‘Arizona Pioneers Home Cemetery’ in Prescott.
Most/all public and private cemeteries have ‘online interment registries’ these days, and the ‘Arizona Pioneers Home Cemetery’ is no exception.
Here is the online page that lists ALL interments at the ‘Arizona Pioneers Home Cemetery’ ( a subsection of which is also known as Simmons Cemetery )..
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gsr&GScid=56964
** Names of the 11 ( ELEVEN ) GMIHC Hotshots that
** DO appear in their ‘interment registry’…
Ashcraft, Andrew – Age: 29
Caldwell, Robert – Age: 23
Marsh, Eric – Age: 43
McKee, Grant – Age: 21
Norris, Scott – Age: 28
Parker, Wade – Age: 22
Steed, Jesse – Age: 36
Thurston, Joe – Age: 32
Turbyfill, Travis – Age: 27
Whitted, Clayton – Age: 28
Zuppiger, Garret – Age: 27
** Names of the 8 ( EIGHT ) GMIHC Hotshots that
** do NOT appear in their ‘interment registry’…
NOTE: The ‘Burial’ information shown below for these Hotshots who are NOT buried in Prescott is shown exactly the way it appears in the National Level ‘Find a Grave’ database, as of this writing.
Carter, Travis – Age: 31
Burial: Unknown for ‘Travis Clay Carter’ born August 7, 1982, died June 30, 2013.
Deford, Dustin – Age: 24
Burial: Beaver Lodge Cemetery, Ekalaka, Carter County, Montana, USA.
MacKenzie, Christopher – Age: 30
Burial: San Jacinto Valley Cemetery, San Jacinto, Riverside Countym California, USA.
Misner, Sean – Age: 26
Burial: Cremated, Location of ashes is unknown.
Percin, John – Age: 24
Burial: Cremated, Ashes given to family or friend.
Rose, Anthony – Age: 23
Burial: Buried near Zion, Illinois. Exact location is unknown.
Warneke, William – Age: 25
Burial: Marana Mortuary and Cemetery, Marana, Pima County, Arizona, USA.
Woyjeck, Kevin – Age: 21
Burial: Forest Lawn Memorial Park (Long Beach), Long Beach, Los Angeles County, California, USA.
Thanks WTKTT. Damn I hope the movie industry and anyone investigating this historic tragic event consults you. Shit, you are on top of everything–you must be some kin here cause my offspring have those kinds of abilities–and Joy is blessed that way too. Anyone doing an article, movie, or wanting to know details would be crazy not to consult with you.
So I did the right thing with Marsh. I have a heart for that man because I really believe he had up to four big cheeses on his ass to make a move to do what they do–protect structures. I think that was premier with them and secondary to Hot Shoting. I am some ambivalent because Bob Powers, Norb, Ted, Gary, RTS and others here on this site will tell you they never ever would have taken their crews down from where Joy wanted to go parallel to their actions. Every time I think about how stern and non forgiving with Joy was, I wonder how they could have done this thing. Willis said those men can go through that kind of brush where an ordinary person can not. Well I am ordinary and made it through although belatedly. Why I still am stymied at how they could do that and I am certain the men I aforementioned are not, since they do know what the plan, push, and evidence shows. People do not keep secrets on 19 deaths. And mostly when I surmise something these fellows that know their shit say yes–GMHS bad screw up. All starting with Bob, Ted, Gary, Norb, RTS and others that have looked at the situation say hell no–we would never have our men go down in that trap. Yet I am stymied how Marsh and Steed gave in–it makes one wonder if Marsh had something hanging over his head–was structure protection their main item and being the Hot Shot a secondary occupation. Well in this case the Hybrid Wild Land Fire Figher idea was a Fucked up Idea. Maybe not for all but for the GMHS it certainly did not work out for shit.
Side note- I did e mail Ted on what fires he might know about where men were killed while following the LCES and the 10 and 18– I wanted to know other than extraneous situations like fire trucks running over people or meteorites and trees falling on heads. No response yet — he will need some time on that one.
Well the world does get strange. When Joy took me off life support–Docs did not know that I had that mandate–and I came back to earth, it classifies me as a zombie. You know, dead man walking–second time maybe which even a wooden stake though the heart might not stop me. Well six stainless stents near the heart haven’t yet. But I have helped the medical profession for near a million dollars and a heli copter pilot for tens of thousands.
Strange because I built a beautiful fence and rode my Harley ( I call it my motor bike) around and hiked a lousy 15 miler a couple times up the weaver I am now thought to be a war lock. OK, Kathy Weaver seriously said that but I wasn’t the one that backed a bulldozer into her Dad’s house during the Yarnell fire and when did warlocks shoot aliens through and through? Strange how people get ideas. So anyway Joy put up several signs on my nicely made fence-Beware of our Zombie Chickens (our neighbors, the Flippins, had turned me in for 3 chickens unleashed and on the loose but the county when they came out could not see any violation there) so they again turned me in on burning but the local fire department saw I was doing good instead of bad and also I saw they were doing good works and promised to do a hell of a lot better (they already are) than the last watch.
So Joy has another sign, beware Zombies eat trespasser brains–(but you are OK.) I wonder who she means on that one.
Life is good –don’t let it pass you by with unseemly behavior by such things as circling the wagons and withholding the truth. Accolades mean nothing and advancements when they are gained through deceit and deception.
While we are speaking of THE TEN STANDARD ORDERS let me add—————-
The Orders were published after the 1956 fatality study.
The orders were forward looking at that time and still are.
They are so well thought out that even though people have manipulated them tried to change them they have stood the test of time.
LCES is nothing more than a short version of some of them #4,#5.#7.
They have been proven over time to be the best there ever was and the best there ever will be.
Every Wild land fire agency out side the US has adopted them that in its self says all you need to know.
No one in 60 years has come up with any thing better for a guide to fire safety.
So to any one who thinks they are old or backward looking, Used to accuse Fire Fighters of failure
when there are fatalities listen to what you are saying. They are there to tell you what to do that is safe. When you have a fire fatality or accident they will stand out as a cause. They were designed because of fatalities that occurred prior to 1956. They stood out as the most probable cause of the Fire Fatality.
What far reaching and new rules would be better than the current ones?
You will find that you will come back to them every time. They have saved and continue to save Hundreds of thousands of Wild Land Fire Fighters every year around the world. Its not just the Forest Service its every agency every where.
**
** FORMER GM HOTSHOT SAYS…
**
** “GM GOT KILLED BY THEIR OVERHEAD”
The ‘discussion’ that Mr. David Turbyfill ( father of deceased GMIHC Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ) started last week on his PUBLIC “Yarnell Fire Realities” Facebook page continues to see new comments appearing.
That thread started by Mr. Turbyfill following his participation in the April 5 ‘Beta Staff Ride’, and which he calls “more than disappointing” could be called the ‘WAKE UP!!’ thread since Mr. Turbyfill is now appealing to all WFFs to be aware that their ‘overhead’ is leaving them totally “on their own” and they all need to watch out for THEMSELVES.
( Standard Watch Out: Death from above ).
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/?rc=p
A very interesting comment was added just 6 hours ago, by a fellow named Bee Tschorn.
Bee Tschorn is a former Granite Mountain Hotshot, who was VERY close to Eric Marsh and who says ( on his own totally PUBLIC Facebook page ), that Eric was almost a father-figure to him and that, to him, Eric Marsh is (quote) “The man I owed the success of my life to, and thank you for helping me to find God, Eric”.
Bee Tschorn is also a VERY close friend of Brendan McDonough’s, and there are also PUBLIC photos on Tschorn’s PUBLIC Facebook page showing a recent visit he received from McDonough up in Vermont, where Tschorn now lives and runs an organic nursery he named “Granite Mountain Organics” and where Tschorn is now also ( apparently ) working as a ‘Fuels Tech’ for the US Forestry Service.
In his comment from 6 hours ago, Bee Tschorn makes a pretty strong claim.
Bee Tschorn says, unequivocally, that people who ‘really know’ what happened know that Granite Mountain got ‘killed’ by the Arizona Forestry overhead working the fire that day.
“…all of us that know the crew and were really there and involved in this knows the granite mountain got screwed Granite Mountain didn’t make any mistakes and didn’t do anything stupid or out of the ordinary they got killed by their overhead.”
Tschorn’s comment was in response to a comment from Steven Daly, made yesterday, who says he worked on the Doce fire with Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and Granite Mountain, and who simply cannot understand why GM would have left the safe-black to descend into a death trap since (quote) “Nothing about what the weather did was unexpected or out of the ordinay”.
Here is that recent ‘exchange’ from Yesterday and today over at ‘Yarnell Fire Realities’…
——————————————————————————————-
Comment by: Steven Daly – Yesterday at 11:02am
We, as well as Granite Mountain IHC, were on the Doce Fire outside of Prescott 10 days before this. Same weather, same fuel, same fire activity. Nothing about what the weather did was unexpected or out of the ordinary. So why leave safety to go into a death trap?
Comment by: Jody Prummer – Yesterday at 11:14am
I agree Steven. We were also down there and got home the day before the accident.
Comment by: Bee Tschorn – 6 hours ago
Anyone that thinks that the weather was the same on the Dosie fire is an uneducated firefighter anyone that thinks that the fuel type was the same as equally as uneducated Brandon Mcdonagh was on both those fires and straight from his mouth he said he never seen fire activity like he did that day and Yarnell hill No one can say anything and less they were there firsthand and all of us that know the crew and were really there and involved in this knows the granite mountain got screwed Granite Mountain didn’t make any mistakes and didn’t do anything stupid or out of the ordinary they got killed by their overhead And it’s time for hotshot superintendents to stand up for the men and women that work on the ground and don’t turn your back on your brothers when something happens to them it shows how united you really are not
——————————————————————————————-
Well that is expected from some one who knew Marsh.
Its circle the wagons first.
How ever the fire, weather and fuels say that they did make several mistakes.
And many have said that the fire did as predicted. Weather it was like the Dosie fire or not
supposedly the weather was the same.
They did every thing right except follow the 10 and 18 and LCES.
I believe I know Steven Daly if he is the one he has a hell of a back ground in Fire.
AS I have said over and over your overhead can not kill you. You still have the ability to think for your self and use ALL the safety rules. Many a HOT SHOT CREW has said no to all kinds of overhead way back into history Since 1957 with out recourse.
I would like to see the information and Name or Names of the overhead that they are talking about here. Even a Run down from Ted Putnam would open a few doors. Until then it is still a assumption that there were any orders above Marsh.
Every supervisor I ever had on and off the Fire Line always told me You are responsible for the safety of the men under you and no one else. If its unsafe don’t do it. Your crew is your number one priority from 1 man to 1oo you are the accountable person because you are with your crew and you are right there.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 18, 2016 at 2:29 pm
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Well that is expected from some one who knew Marsh.
Well… yes… and he didn’t just KNOW him. We’re talking about someone who says he ‘owes the success of his life’ to Marsh and also that Marsh “helped him find God”.
However… what he just had to say DOES remain ‘interesting’… especially since this guy is GOOD FRIENDS with McDonough and one might be able to assume that this guy knows some/all of the things that McDonough has always been ( and remains ) afraid to talk about.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I would like to see the information and Name or Names of the
>> overhead that they are talking about here.
Ditto. I wonder just how ‘unequivocal’ this statement really is.
In other words… COULD it be that this guy really DOES know some details that haven’t been made public… and he might have heard them from his ‘brother’ McDonough… and that’s why he’s making this attempted ‘statement of fact’…
…or is it just more “I can’t accept ANY criticism of people I knew personally… so it must have been everyone’s else’s fault” crap.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Even a Run down from Ted Putnam would open a few doors.
>> Until then it is still a assumption that there were any orders
>> above Marsh.
Ah… yes… but even though we still don’t know WHO said it… ( some OPS person on the Staff Ride? ) or what the exact ‘context’ was… RTS himself has also reported that even just last week… the ‘wagons are still circled’ and prepared to CHALLENGE any ‘evidence’ in that regard with…
“Of course… y’all know that we NEVER actually GIVE anyone any actual ORDERS when we’re fighting a fire… right?”
The ‘circled wagons’ still have these ‘logos’ painted on the sides…
1. There are no ‘Rules of Engagement’ that need to be strictly OBEYED when fighting a fire. There are only some ‘guidelines’.
2. No one ever gives anyone any real ORDERS. Just ‘Suggestions’.
Ha–what a bull shit that they don’t give strict orders and expect the chain of command to follow. Their creed is well written and documented–photos of the sign telling people if you want to be a hot shot be ready to strictly take orders daily. So now they want to delete that afer killing 19?
Bob said:
“AS I have said over and over your overhead can not kill you. You still have the ability to think for your self and use ALL the safety rules. Many a HOT SHOT CREW has said no to all kinds of overhead way back into history Since 1957 with out recourse. ”
I agree with you. However, I want to point out that GM was no regular federal land management agency sponsored IHC. Their genesis, culture, and sponsor was very different than what we have had in the history of hotshot crews.
Bob said:
“Every supervisor I ever had on and off the Fire Line always told me You are responsible for the safety of the men under you and no one else. If its unsafe don’t do it. Your crew is your number one priority from 1 man to 1oo you are the accountable person because you are with your crew and you are right there.”
Again, I agree with you but I want to point out the same thing:
GM was no regular federal land management agency sponsored IHC. Their genesis, culture, and sponsor was very different than what we have had in the history of hotshot crews.
Offered for consideration.
Woodsman
You may have a point how ever severial were Ex FS including Steed who RTS said he Trained. Marsh wanted to be FS he tried to copy every thing he learned
from his time in FS.
Marsh met with and worked with many of the Superintendents so there may have been some culture there.
But I hear what you are saying.
If donut and his friend got together and talked to God then maybe they got the wrong message back. The Doce fire is that one right west of Prescott then that is baloney about it being a different thing here. The conditions were approximately identical. Plenty of manzanita and all the weather reports of wind change and high velocity causing the same problems. Joy and I drive by there quite regularly, her husband every day. If you need photos of all the manzanita in that area we can provide.
The Doce fire is easily reviewed. You have to pass through the burn area on the way to Prescott from Skull Valley. There is about 2 miles of burned area, all in manzanita with boulders and steep hills around there. Adjoining to the west along the highway some more manzanita like the Yarnell Death Basin. You damn sure Do Not want to be caught in that shit if a blaze starts up. You never see livestock in there or even deer==they cant get through it yet hotshots like donut can.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on April 18, 2016 at 7:53 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> The Doce fire is easily reviewed. You have to pass
>> through the burn area on the way to Prescott from
>> Skull Valley. There is about 2 miles of burned area,
>> all in manzanita with boulders and steep hills around
>> there. Adjoining to the west along the highway some
>> more manzanita like the Yarnell Death Basin.
Exactly… and this ‘fact’ was not lost on the FFs who are currently authoring the official ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’.
On page 4 of the official ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride Guide’… they are TELLING their ‘Facilitators’ to do EXACTLY what you just suggested.
As the ‘Staff Ride Participants’ are being driven from Prescott down to Yarnell in the ‘buses’… the ‘Staff Ride Facilitators’ are SUPPOSED to point out all the ‘similarities’ between the ‘Doce Fire’ and the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’… and to also point out how all the ‘resources’ that were responding were SUPPOSED to be fully aware of these SIMILARITIES and should have known fully well what to ‘expect’ in Yarnell.
See a longer ‘Reply’ about this up above as a new parent comment, including a reproduction of the page from the actual ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’ that talks all about this…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-332750
Except for one thing Bob. I am a miner, mucker and bad mother fucker. I was the Crasius Clay of miners. If I did not have that attitude, then I wasn’t a fucking miner. The minute a helper challenged anything I had to say his ass may as well been grass. I was the boss because I mined since I was nine. Now don’t these Hot Shot bosses have the same attitude if they really are hot shots? Or do they get their stars because a neighbor is a hot shot boss and likes their lick ass enough to put them in charge? You boys do have a different system to move up. A miner either is or ain’t, but maybe the wild land fire bosses get there through a paper issued out of some ass hole Academy afraid of offending Amanda and through some one they knew intimately enough to move them up the ladder. Bob and others talk of this new thing where your experience does not amount to a lot against the crony system in place.
Yes, Sonny…that is the way I was, no question about it. And I am once again a backslider who could not help taking a free shot at Bob and his bullshit…Bob’s Bullshit But…I am going to limit myself to just one more comment like an alcoholic limits himself to just one more drink.
Bob said, “You may have a point how ever severial were Ex FS including Steed who RTS said he Trained. Marsh wanted to be FS he tried to copy every thing he learned from his time in FS”.
Yes, that is true but just like Marsh was by all outward appearances the “perfect” hotshot crew boss, he was a deeply flawed clone that had all of the physical attributes of the ultimate hotshot but had serious malware and several virus’ somewhere deep in his programmed software.
And lastly, to get my most bang for the buck on my single drink (other than the easy shot at Bob) I want to clear up some confusion for WTKTT who is colored confused right now. I know that Eric Marsh was not the first male in the history of the world who became whatever he needed to be in order to get the woman of his dream.
So…if I had to take a wild guess, I would guess Eric became a Buddhist sometime after he met Amanda. God? Buddha? Allah? Yahweh? The Great Creator? Aren’t they all kind of the same thing when it comes to getting the girl? I think we all know what makes men tick…right?
Whoops…this doesn’t count because I got lost trying to figure out why in God’s name Marsh was a Buddhist of all things, and may the Great Creator Bless All Buddhists, but I forgot my main point, the deeply flawed Marsh build an equally deeply flawed hotshot crew that was indeed a blueprint for disaster because of “their genesis, culture, and sponsor.”
Followup…
This is just more proof of the ‘connection’ between Bee Tschorn, Eric Marsh, Brendan McDonough, and the Granite Mountain Hotshot organization in order to put Bee Tschorn’s recent comments ( posted above ) into ‘context’…
But it also includes something a little confusing about who was ‘converting’ who, and what actual religious ‘beliefs’ and/or ‘tenets’ were involved.
The story of the ‘evangelical’ nature of the Granite Mountain Hotshot organization itself, and whether what was going on there was just ‘normal’ or, perhaps, ‘over the top’, has been discussed before, and that ‘story’ just remains ( and WILL remain ) part of the ‘tapestry’ of ‘human factors’ associated with the organization itself.
Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis’ religious convictions are well-known and his own almost preacher-like-wannabee tendencies/leanings are also fully known. Willis himself made those an ‘issue’ when, during the first public press conference held at the deployment site, he offered his own opinion of “God must have had a different plan for those men” as an ‘official’ explanation of why those 19 men died that day.
And the ‘evangelizing’ that was taking place inside that crew is also well docuemented, with some members of the crew with ‘evangelical’ leanings actually reporting back to their own pastors on a continuing basis about how the ‘conversions’ inside the Granite Mountain organization were ‘coming along’.
But it’s always been ( until now? ) a bit of a ‘mystery’ how ‘Eric Marsh’ himself fit into that ‘evangelical’ picture with regards to the Granite Mountain organization itself.
It was only less than a month ago, on March 21, 2016, when Brendan McDonough and former GM Hotshot Bee Tschorn were ( apparently ) spending that ‘time’ together in Vermont, where Tschorn now lives.
Bee Tschorn posted a PUBLIC photo from that McDonough visit on his own PUBLIC Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/bee.tschorn?fref=ufi&rc=p
—————————————————————————————-
Bee Tschorn – March 21 at 9:00am ·
PHOTO: Bee Tschorn and Brendan McDonough in front of a fireplace.
PHOTO CAPTION ( text by Bee Tschorn )…
I am so thankful for my Lord Jesus Christ for the brotherhoods that he pulled from smoldering ashes and built into Bear man beast best friends Love you so much brother thank you for your time
—————————————————————————————–
On September 28, 2013 ( the day the original SAIR report was released ), Bee Tschorn also made the following PUBLIC comment on his PUBLIC Facebook page…
——————————————————————————————
Bee Tschorn – September 28, 2013
PHOTO: Eric Marsh standing on a ridge, backlit by the setting sun.
PHOTO CAPTION ( text by Bee Tschorn )…
The man I owed the success of my life 2. thank you for helping me find God, Eric Marsh.
——————————————————————————————
But just 68 hours ago… Amanda Marsh herself posted the following comment on her own PUBLIC “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters” Facebook page
“Eric was and I am a Buddhist.”
So color me ( slightly ) confused.
Bee Tschorn PUBLICLY thanks Eric Marsh for ( among other things ) “helping him find God”… and that “finding” seems to have been of the JIMLAS ( Jesus Is My Lord And Savior ) variety… just like Bredan McDonough following his ‘conversion’ by other members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots…
…but now we have Eric’s own wife saying, unequivocally, that Eric was actually a Buddhist?
For the sake of completeness ( and in case the original PUBLIC posting disappears )… here is Amanda Marsh’s complete post that she made to her PUBLIC “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters” Facebook page just 68 hours ago.
And after a long period of Amanda Marsh saying that she has never really been that interested in the ‘details’ of what happened in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… she is now suddenly saying ( PUBLICLY )…
(quote) “I want the Yarnell Hill Fire to be studied for the TRUTH of what happened so that future fighters can learn.”
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/
————————————————————————————————–
Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters – April 15 at 8:29pm ·
There were well over 500 people at Eric’s funeral. His funeral was very private, there would have been scores more if there wasn’t police protection. It was the worst day of my life, one of them anyway in a string of very hard days. I remember some things about that morning, but not much. I remember I couldn’t be near those who loved me, like my family. I stood with firefighters and agency personnel. Even then, I stood very much alone. I was so afraid that if anyone touched me, looked at me or said I love you I would fall apart. I often think back to that morning because the funeral service was exquisitely Eric. 7:00 AM at the lake. It was beautiful. On the ride over I saw a dead pronghorn fawn on the road. I couldn’t bare to see this beautiful creature obliterated on my way home, so my friend Jill and I stopped and grasped it’s tiny feet and moved it gently into the pasture beside us. That moment is so clear for me. That day changed my life because I saw how many people respected and loved my husband. Grown men in Forest Service uniforms were sobbing. Eric gave his life for his crew. That planted a seed in my head. It allowed me to begin to forgive all involved in that fateful event that claimed the lives of 19 great and brave and dearly loved men. It was an accident of the highest order. Eric was and I am a Buddhist. Though it was very hard for me to touch that seed of compassion on a moment by moment basis, I clung to it for life. Every person on the Yarnell Hill Fire was a contemporary of Eric’s. I don’t know enough about wildland firefighting to lay blame at anyone’s feet. I wasn’t there and I have never dug line. I do know who Eric was. He was awesome, he was so brilliant and every day he strove to be an even better man. That has inspired me to be an even better woman. I am not the same person I used to be. I have grown and changed so much. Compassion and empathy are my strongest allies. I also live deeply in the knowledge that I am only as helpful to the world as I am open to revealing myself. I am becoming more and more comfortable with knowing that grief of this order never goes away. I will carry this pain and discomfort forever. The Granite Mountain Hotshots have made me a better human being. I feel sometimes that Eric’s ultimate sacrifice was for me, too. Although I wish I could change it all, I cant. I have been forced to deeply evaluate who I am and who I wish to become. I am fierce. I am loyal. I am loving. I am deeply impacted by everything said about the crew and about Eric because they are mine and I am theirs, bound together forever. This is where my deepest vulnerability comes into play. I ask that when the Granite Mountain Hotshots are discussed it is done with kindness and sensitivity. I want the Yarnell Hill Fire to be studied for the truth of what happened so that future fighters can learn. There is truth and there are lies. I am fine with truth. The lies truly break my heart.
————————————————————————————————–
Well I happened to be right at the spot they decided to go down. God fucked up royally if he had anything to do with the decision to get those men down in that canyon or influence Marsh’s thinking. I just can’t believe their stupidity of following stupidity had any thing to do with religion–if so you best convert to my Irish lady Gods–they expected me to have sense enough not to go down there. If I did it was on me for being stupid not them for knowing better. Hey, I looked at that inferno–no purgatory there–just plain straight death and hell to pay if you dare challenged forces I saw. Bull shit about this religion bit–has nothing to do with stupidity.
David T.==man to listen to. He lost his son and trying to improve the turkey roaster blankets. Same as Zack Ashoor trying hard to invent a light device to make the O2 needed in smoke infested areas where hot shots work. Zack is now dead at 29 yr. of age. He stopped me early morning when I was walking south on 89–toward my desert camp. Said did I know how to get to where the men died–Zack was driving an older chevy 4×4 Blazer. Yep, but who was this young fellow? I looked him over–said ok I can hike you up the Weaver’s near to where they died but against the law to go right up to the fence where they died. We went up to Patties place and left his Bronco there. From Candy Cane Lane we made our hike. When we got up to the two track where the fatal order was almost completed, Zack said I must go down there. I told him now you might be arrested. Zack said I am an American Israeli, I cried when I saw the news of their deaths, those were my friends and I will stand before any judge for my actions. Zack went down and he had photos of himself made standing before the fence. He defied the bull shit of restricting that area to a few. But like Marsh, he is now dead at his young age–his asthma–and he was using oxygen that day to get up the mountain, albeit, somewhat better than I was. So he had defied your stupid orders of restriction to keep people from honoring those men and knowing what went wrong that day. But will you now dig him up so you can prosecute him? Sometimes the stupidity of the people that run the show is ridiculous. Do you think you can hide the truth?
But for Zack, I will say he is a hero–not only for his intentions for good but because he had the balls to be a free American not subject to bull shit. He died at the same age as my son–29 and in the same age bracket as the young men of the GMHS. Their leaders failed him as did my son’s bosses. But to Zack, I wonder if the fresh fumes did not add to his cause of death. You see when you are already compromised in health that 230 thousand gallon of retardant does no justice to your ability to stay alive.
Write that young man from Phoenix as one of the tragedy heroes belonging with the fellows that died. He deserves every honor they have.
As usual I write fast and furious. I meant to say their leaders (many) failed the GMHS young people. Tears your heart out that this is the case that men are dead as a direct result of the cadre in charge day one to day two to day three. But there it is and there it continues to be until those liars are brought up to give justice to the dead GMHS first, the dead, lost homes and displaced people of Yarnell and Peeples Valley, and the millions squandered of public monies.
Will you that have evidence of the crimes committed stand idly by and allow the truth to be hidden continue. Well, time is passing you by. Many have already come forward with the truth. Even Donut could not hold back, but if you do it will eat your heart out. Nineteen dead is no easy thing to with hold evidence from. But imagine that if this continues without being exposed, then the responsibility of a continuing system that kills wild land fire fighters for its careless and risk taking methods. Hybrid fire fighting? Here to stay–how many lives do you want to sacrifice?
Thanks Donut for finally getting it right. Pressure from overhead did the GMHS in –what you heard on the radio..
Just to be clear prior to the South Canyon Fire and even a few investigations after 1984 the Fatality investigation reports all Stated the violation of the 10 Standard orders Identifying each. This was one of the many things stated in the reports including the Shout watch outs. The use of these 10 and 18 started soon after 1957. If any one has the time to research these fire investigation reports you will find the specific violations individually stated.
The new no fault reports have recently been the norm due to the Law suits using the violations of the rules as the key source to bring people to court.
You can not have lessons learned if you eliminate the rules and actions that were violated thus causing the Accident or Fatalities.
The TEN STANDARD ORDERS are hard proven facts every time they are not used or followed accidents/fatalities occur. Why because they are the Basic rules of engagement. In 1956 they were identified as the reasons Fire Fighters Die. The Rules have been proven over and over to be the dividing line between safe and unsafe practices.
They can be used to keep you safe they can also end up being used to Identify what went wrong.
Dave– Supervisors Have Been Brought to Trial for bad decisions and orders that led to Fire line accidents. One such fire the Sadler Fire Nevada August 9, 1999.
Jack Blackwell Regional Forester R4
Individuals and teams will be held accountable for their actions. Our actions will demonstrate a zero tolerance for accidents and deviations from safety standards.
So what has happened to that striate forward statement and declaration since then?
Yes we are all entitled to a full investigation and holding all involved to a standard and a evaluation of their safety performance.
Some where that got lost on Yarnell Hill Fire.
There were failures from the Top down right to the crew who then failed themselves by falling into step with the other failures. There is a lot of blame to go around.
When a good crew decides this fire is being run by idiots they usually become very safety aware
and do not fall into the traps laid by incompetence. Take care of your self and your crew.
Marsh fell into the lock step with the overhead and drug his crew with him.
It is a sad thing to say but it is the truth . I truly believe Steed knew moving to BSR was a serious violation of all the rules and staying in the BLACK was the safest option. The crew would be alive to day if he would have stuck to his original decision.
Bob,
you said: “One such fire the Sadler Fire Nevada August 9, 1999.”
Anything in particular jump out at you that made you select this fire for an example in your post?
I looked at the report. Good read. There is some seriously damning information in that report, especially to overhead (not all overhead.) In the 203…Do you know who was DIV Mike on 8/9/99 Day shift? ARRR TEEEE ESSSS! Small world! Can you ask him if he received an IAP that day? Sounds like they were in short supply. Thanks.
Woodsman
Woodsman
OOPs,
Only 1 (one) single ‘Woodsman’ contributed to the previous message.
Woodsman
Woodsman it is one of the Fires covered in John Macleans book Fire and Ashes. The Rattle Snake Fire, The Sadler fire and a bit of the Mann Gulch.
I believe 4 overhead were brought before a regional review board.
They were all striped of their Team positions and their Red Card ratings.
The one I knew was the Safety Officer he was here on the Sawtooth NF.
Ill go back and pick up the names for you if you did not get them from the report..
review
Bob,
Yes, I read the entire report. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. There were major mistakes and the investigative team held no punches calling a spade a spade, along with an evaluation of the 10/18. I just noticed along as I read that Fred was there as DIV M. I wish he had been DIV O on 8/9/99…may have not had the near miss & injuries. Who knows.
The report for the Sadler Complex is chock full of mistakes in addition to the failed 10/18.
I hadn’t read about that one so thanks for pointing it out.
Woodsman
Stories Type 1 Team was Dismantled.
Those that went through training were reinstated at a lower step.
But never were allowed to be part of a team again. part of a Team again.
The Loop Fire is another example of two Hot Shot crews that refused an assignment and one El Cariso that did it any way and ended up with 12 dead Hot Shots.
You sure can Dance Bob! If we ever get together to see whose dick is bigger, please don’t make it a dance off!
https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylc=X3oDMTFiN25laTRvBF9TAzIwMjM1MzgwNzUEaXRjAzEEc2VjA3NyY2hfcWEEc2xrA3NyY2h3ZWI-?p=famous+tap+dancer+on+youtube+&fr=yfp-t-571&fp=1&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8
“I used to know an ole boy who was the number two man on the Oak Grove Hotshots for a couple of years, that old man could dance!”
Link didn’t work right check out,
Aleksandr Ostanin – Ukraine
He reminds me of you when you were a young man Bob!
Woodsman,
Division M was along the front country near Carlin, NV. It was a very political fire where grazing issues seemed to take precedent.
This will be mostly from recall with a lot of things obviously NOT included in the SAIR.
Storey’s Type I IMT did NOT utilize night shifts and some ranchers would work through the night disking alongside roads, giving us a little more to work from.
We (Div M) had the Carlin Fire Chief telling us we shouldn’t burn out because it was grazing land and feed for the local ranchers.
We had either NV Executive or Legislative Branch mandated Engine Task Forces consisting of a local VFD. BLM, and NDF Engines strictly for ‘Structure Protection’ that would assist us but could/would NOT be assigned to the fire.
We had maverick ranchers lighting backfires and burning out while other ranchers had cowboys rounding up cows.
We had two South Zone CA Hot Shot Crews, so I had them scout and do their HS thing and come up with a plan.
We had a SW Engine Strike Team of Type 6 Engines so I had the STEN(T) run the Engin S/T while the STEN did much needed TFLD duties, which included a Type 2 Crew in a bus.
We also had a lot of mining activity and a trailer full of explosives at one of the drop points.
Our Division m started to blow out in afternoon, so we pulled everyone back to the drop point.
We heard some of the other back-country Division O/Q? activity go down over the radio as it occurred.
I recall the Branch Director calling OPS to notify him that they had an incident, with some people taking some heat, and a lot of people taking smoke, but everything was alright.
The next morning, the IMT Safety Officer notified us at briefing that there was an incident and aside from some smoke issues, everything and everyone involved was fine.
DIVS O/Q had directed the two HS Crews (Smokey Bear and Dalton) that had been there for days, anchor and flanking and burning out with a dozer, to cease what they were doing and go to the unanchored head of the fire. They refused and continued to SAFELY AND SUCCESSFULLY anchor and flank the fire.
The Golden Gate NPS Crew and Engine Crew and overhead went to the unanchored head of the fire with loads of unburned fuel between them, so basically a frontal assault.
The Engine Crew at least disengaged once they were overwhelmed with spots and slopovers and other indicators. The GGNPS Crew, however, ignored all the indicators and Watch Outs until they were burned over.
Long story, short, one of the females on the GGNPS Crew received face and neck AND AIRWAY burns, enough to cough up blood. Her pack straps melted off as she was running INTO THE GREEN from the slopover.
That night, we heard some traffic on the radio but didn’t know what to make of it until the next day.
The following day, the SAIT and involved WFF’s visited the burnover site only to find a dozer-built Safety Zone that was NOT there the previous day, which explained some of the radio traffic the night prior.
The IMT attempted to blame the two HS Crews for sending “a river of fire” toward the DIV O/Q WFF’s, that the “column collapsed,” and that a “thunderhead collapsed” causing outflow winds, NONE OF WHICH OCCURRED.
I warned the two HS Supts of the IMT’s intentions the following day and was summarily and swiftly demobbed from the fire.
The GGNPS Crew Boss was interviewed at a later date and asked what he would have done differently since he had time to reflect on the incident and such.
You guessed it – he said he would have done NOTHING different, he would have done everything the same!
So, the NPS decided to pull his Crew Boss qualifications and retrain and recertify him as a Crew Boss
Right on Bob. These fellows did what they did–Marsh and Steed did kill their men by reckless abandon. WTKTT has the proper words there Negligent Homicides. Yet we have to spread the blame here beyond that–to what degree is the thing to determine. First off three fire departments local failed to take care of a cowboy lightening strike. Any cowboy or two could have easiliy contained. The new cookie cutter cowboy with ATV’s and planes equipped with retardant could have really doused the shit out of it. But we have so god damned many pussy type people that won’t even respond to a little lightening strike that it ballons into a full fledged man eating wild fire. So the blame starts from day one and it is spred so much that all we can see is a bunch of ninnys taking awards for a job well done. The publc eats this hero crap up and the cadre feeds them all they can. Yet the men in the know fine the shit out of these people for a bad job.
I say spend a few more hundred thousand for the old gold miners around here need a place to park their rigs while they pan gold. The Weavers has plenty of gold but if you park along the road here you will get a big red ticked pasted on your windshield, a tow truck and a fine for leaving your vehicle too long. So those parking places will be safe, I hope.
Better yet get the truth out and spent a bundle of millions to straighten up a system that is killing wild land fire fighters. People in the know that talk here are not stupid or ignorant. They know that the system needs help and will continue to kill these young men if it is not revamped and people like those that rant the Yarnell Fire Odeal are not held accountable for their negligent operation that has killed so many, destroyed so many home displacing so many and wasted so many millions of tax payer dollars that should have instead been spent toward improving wild land fire fighting conditions.
Bob Powers said this some days ago
>>>>Show me a fire where all the rules were followed and someone died.<<<<<<<
Bob and others, at the SR Monday night get together the Presenters spoke of 3 fatalities that in fact this Was and IS the case. "You can do everything right and still die" for more information on this all that care should read the latest 2 More Chains issue, covers one such incident that Brit Rosso was personaly involved in.
Brit, was a presenter and part of the Cadre on the YHSR.
In the coming days I will be posting more information and try to DISRUPT the current Wildland FireFighting Tactics and Stratagies, it is my belief that these beliefs and CULTURE of WFF is what all seem to buy into, and so did GMIHC, to the point of their deaths.
The Wildland Fire community at large can and should take actions, Overhead is leaving you on your own. They have the 10-18 to relieve them of their responsabilties, and as most of WFF live and breath it.
WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
David. Question.
A lot of blame was on the men on lces.
Can we look there from my standpoint to help me educate me.
Lookout.
Donut was picked up and maybe there was some sort of knowledge fire switched because we were up at same fire and saw it and felt it so lookout or not we got out because the fire was squirrels and too spotty and we witnessed these fire tornadoes and waves of fire so in your search for the truth did any of the men from Shrine to Sesame share about another lookout late in the day?
Communication.
So if I was on a chaos and frustrated day of radio dialects on a radio that did not work from the point of gearing up at the buggies and the day got worse and an authority person with all fairness felt he was giving proper information to someone near him that was being dispatched and the authority person felt he was being disobeyed and the men were more like what the heck is going on? What if it was as simple as poor chaotic radio bs so that the sair was not too wrong because they said they had radio problems but did not get all details public but some do know private so because of this back n forth mess why do so many hold the heaviness of the lces on the men when it was simply FUBAR…and they would not fall into that error category without that help from that authority man so the blame lays in other areas I say in my humble opinion.
Escape route.
Again due to radio problems and another’s misinformation caused the men to go to escape route and what if they were told left but this authority man just imagined these men in his mind in a different spot at thwt point and the men were like huh? So innocently because this authority man in his mind felt the men were in another area and the men were not and were led wrong but NOT ORDERED to do any structures or reengage and just were tired men just trying to be guided to their buggies and got led wrong…
Safety Zone.
So because of all the radio be they went wrong way so I always will take offense when blame is put on the men when so many were independent souls and it was just a FUBAR radio bs….
So from my humble opinion… Saying three times a new adapted mayday word for radios could of helped here. I listened to so many that were on the fire…that 2015 wildland firefighters convention Sonny and I could print a book on that night alone because they knew nothing about us and we got a load of details that night so I like to think many authority people have to think they are damned if they come forward or if they don’t.
I am focused to the chemical areas currently but I think David talking to the bag pipe cyfd firefighters at yarnell 2014 memorial is a start than sedona firefighters and Globe and Sun City and buckeye and really talk with them even show them what I just said and see where it takes you. Also talk to Musser and Hall with seem real life changing to how they fight fires questions….
You David take me to site with me being approved by board with written permission and I will show you things you can’t know unless I am present.
typo corrections
So because of all the radio be IS bs not be
and squirrels is squirrely
I said-
You David take me to site with me being approved by board with written permission and I will show you things you can’t know unless I am present.
another correction-
did not mean me alone with David—meant your wife too and my hiking pal—did not think on the side it would ever be viewed different—so to clear that up—there it is the correction or clarity..
Reply to David Turbyfill post on April 16, 2016 at 9:48 pm
>> David Turbyfill said…
>>
>> In the coming days I will be posting more information and try to
>> DISRUPT the current Wildland FireFighting Tactics and Stratagies,
>> it is my belief that these beliefs and CULTURE of WFF is what all
>> seem to buy into, and so did GMIHC, to the point of their deaths.
Thank you for continuing to ‘drop by’ here and give us your views… and as for ‘the culture itself’ being one of the primary causes for the deaths… I think you already know you won’t find much disagreement around HERE about THAT.
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> Bob and others, at the SR Monday night get together the Presenters
>> spoke of 3 fatalities that in fact this Was and IS the case. “You can
>> do everything right and still die” for more information on this all that
>> care should read the latest 2 More Chains issue, covers one such incident
>> that Brit Rosso was personaly involved in.
There has been extended discussion about that… and even of there were TEN fatality fire were ever single rule was followed and WFFs still died… that still wouldn’t be relevant to what happened in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Granite Mountain was nowhere NEAR having ‘all the rules’ in place when they got trapped in that blind box canyone full of explosive, unburned fuel… with no lookout and 1/4 mile in front of a dynamic, wind-driven wildfire, under extreme drought conditions, and at the height of the burn cycle. No way.
They should NEVER have even been in that position in the first place.
But if you can recall… what were the NAMES of these 3 fires that Brit Rosso seemed to be using to ‘suggest’ some kind of ‘similarity’ with the Yarnell incident?
Apologies for some typos above.
I really botched up the ‘King’s English’ up there.
The paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
———————————————————————–
There has been extended discussion about that ( here on this forum ), and even if there were TEN fatality fires where every single safety rule was followed and WFFs still died… that still wouldn’t be relevant to what happened in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
———————————————————————–
WTKTT- I have to doubt you can find ten fires where people died yet all the safety rules were followed. Definitely Yarnell will be on the bottom of the list and the GMHS and their advisors, co horts and superiors did not see much value in those rules. When have we heard from Willis, Able, Roy Hall, Cordes, Frejole, Muser, (sorry for my spelling–I spell according to my hearing–very bad) that anything wrong against the safety rules occurred? Their backwardness on the issue tells us they do not give the rules much credence. In fact if you look at what Willis was said and I am certain he talked it over with the other cheeses, He said this was only an accident, a walk in the park where a rabbid coyote might attack you, a thing of God and never a whit of reason to think otherwise. Rule Breaking LCES even mentioned? Where?
JD website after the fact of course and then poor JD gets accused of being a radical, non caring crazy man for pointing out those errors. If anyone deserves accolades like we saw being handed out like candy on the Yarnell fire, it is John Daughterly and again forgive my spelling–I mean the guy that runs this site and lets people air their opinions–especially those well seasoned wild land fire fighters and their bosses.
WTKTT has a point–It would indeed be interesting to know what wild land fires killed the men where all the LCES and safety rules were being followed. I will ask Ted Putnam on that one as well–he ought to be able to answer that one and likely some of these retired hot show crew bosses might be able to point out a few?
In answer to Brit’s Article.
First he is talking about a tree SNAG killing a fire fighter.
And he also Praises the 10 and 18 and LCES.
There are all kinds of safety problems on the fire line.
To know a snag is there is to start a safety process to mediate the problem.
Their are a lot of other educational things within the Ten Standard Orders.
Things you learn in school and Things you learn on the job.
Weather effects. Topography, Fuels and fuel loading, Humidity 100 and Thousand hour fuels, Forecasts, Direct and indirect line. Post Lookouts and stay alert to changing situations
to name a few.
The 10 alone only gives you the direction knowing and being well versed in fire behavior gives you the tools.
The 10 has to be implemented at the first step on the fire or off the truck.
Failing to identify all the problems then will end up with surprises or really not staying abreast of the 10..
So I would say his article ha some flaws and some safety rules were not put in place to medicate the dynamics of the situations he described.
I followed the rules I implemented and Preached Safety. on at least 1000 fires in my carrier
from a Engine Foremen to a Division boss with all the crews I supervised or had from Single crews to a full Division . I never had a serious accident. I never had myself or any man under me deploy a shelter.
There is no fatality fire that can not be identified with the TEN STANDARD ORDERS.
You follow them you will go home.
And again how can one accomplish that 10&18 when the start of the day you have faulty equipment and air attack dropping retardant oddly even on all the work my men just did and heavy dose near town that if you look today many near that heavily diae drop people are dead or afflicted today than I am scouting the area and this authority figure has in his mind I am in another spot than where I am and the authority man feels I’m disobeying him when in reality he thinks I am at another spot on his map he is working off and his gruff authority thinking and delivery to another person who does radio causes this chaotic scene and what if I am not with my men because I have been scouting and my guy Jesse is just as confused by this radio dialect especially when Marsh comes at me Jesse and says what’s your comfort level..the dumb pressure from this authority role is how the rules began to be broken but somehow he never made it to the investigation and the men died and we have Donut who if you knew how simple Donut is than its like saying he was not there that day and he has zero guilt when people say he should speak up because in Donuts simple mind he has gone forward and bought into the public figure bs because it helps support one area to his life but if someone who knows Donut told me he was a good Christian non drinking non looker type man I would say my intuitive is way off…so now I should be on staff ride Sonny is right but I want to be there with Morin and Musser and Hall and maybe Abel but the truth still remains in all I said just now and yesterday and I know me saying it will be like I am trouble or cause such but that’s fine but in a few years later when people read my comments and listen there is something in it…I won’t be looked at as trouble but appreciated for the truth.
As a Supervisor who teaches the 10 and 18 you can not expect the first year or even the second year crewman to understand all of the things that go in the evaluation of Fire complexity. It takes time, fires, education and a good teacher.
The Ten Standard Orders are far more complex than checking boxes which by the way this is the first time I ever herd that.
They are fluid rules not check them off and forget them. If you believe the Fire is a dynamic think that is driven by many different and dynamic actions then you must
always evaluate the fire. That is what the Ten Standard Orders are.
If you memorize them and your first flash will be one or more of them as the fire changes or as you build line.
Building line is always a change in terrain.
and a need to change your safety tactic. Underslung line, Line through understory, line under rocks and snags. following fingers has severial watch outs.
The time of day the time of year the past winter, Drought, Weather forecasts Thunder storms and local weather right down to location Micro weather created by many factors.
Education and a thirst for it. Fire is a dynamic and changing force. Learning wild land fire is both education and on the ground experiences. Safety is more than words its a understanding of mother nature, Wild lands and all the factors that are predictable if you pay attention.
The 10 and 18 are a fluid thing that changes with severial different factors. you never ever check the box and move on you reference each one automatically and continually. You continually file the information to stay in front of the fire never playing catchup.
That means as I have said before always say to your self what if is it 100% safe are all the safety rules in place if not change your tactics before you Lose control of you safety advantage.
Mother nature dose not try to trick you. You trick your self when you ignore the signs. Fire burns in a predictable way if you watch and listen and act accordingly.
In this 10&18 training do they talk about faulty equipment and authority men who think a person is at point a when he is at point e and guiding y radio misinformation so why all the blame on the gmhs when missing elements still have to show up….
Joy on all the fires I was on and if you take or could take a look at all the shift plans the IC always states to FOLLOW THE 10 AND 18 AND WORK SAFELY. It is and has always been each supervisors responsibility to insure their men are safe.
IT is and has been the responsibility to turn down any request/order that dose not meet the 10 & 18. As a supervisor you can use the Safety rules to say NO with out recourse. Safety Officers preach that all the time.
When I went over the assignment on my Sector or Division I reminded all to follow the 10 and (13) 18 and keep them for most all shift.
Last sentence should say
Reminded all to follow the 10 and (13) 18 and keep them current for all the shift.. sorry about that.
Interesting and informative Bob. Much like mining things are fluid and conditions change and sometimes rapidly. That makes me thing there was a really large error when the bosses did not react to weather changes. I know they claimed they did not get weather information updated timely but then I would think that the bosses seeing the not too distant lightening coming out of storm clouds would be enough send alarm bells to their brains. I knew these things as a child but that was experience from living outdoors. In fact we used to tie things down, cover up things and bring in the laundry when we saw the same gathering in the distance. That must have been one thing they totally ignored.
Then I suppose I better leave the next things they ignored to the wild land fire fighter. Lookout they say was missing and not in place. Then communications were questioned. But I doubt that as it seems that someone wanted them to protect structures when Marsh or Steed said we are in the black, talk to Blue Ridge. Then we go to Escape route–they needed none since they only had to await maybe half hour or an hour until the fire burned over. Finally identifying a Safety Zone–they were in one so why go challenge a crazy wild fire they were watching to try to get to one much less safer than the one they were in even if they got there. I know that tires burned off some old vehicle that was within 50 ft. or so of the Helms so called bomb proof place. Helms was locked up and gone so even if they got there they would have had melted suits on the outside and minimally singed hair and smoke inhalation if they got on the inside. The Pulaskis would not have been totally useless in a wild fire situation there–they could have busted down the door with them to save themselves.
So I would guess that at least they did not break the communication rule–the radios might have been some bad but they got the message to protect structures and Abel I think or the other or both or maybe more told them to hurry up. They had eyes on the fire from Glen Isla for sure cause you could see the fire from there.
As it stands, knowing that ADOSH levied the heaviest possible fines tells us they had enough goods and errors to label this a terrible management of a fire–and so it was. even costing 19 lives of the wild land fire fighters and the millions in tax money to clean this thing up. That is not to mention, Yarnell has lost three more lives in this past week bringing our total up to 87 and counting. June 31 isn’t even here yet.
Bob the tree snag things sounds similar to a meteorite falling on your head, a lightening strike on you, falling off a bluff or having one of those circling fire trucks run you down. What I was thinking of was when a fire turns on you and kills you. Those other things are incidental but seems like if the LCES are closely followed, the fire turn kill situation would be about as scarce as the kill situation from a lightening strike.
In the Uranium mines it was a rule to stay out of open stopes–or out of drifts that had not been bolted and wired. You could get fired for that one. There was always a danger of some dope smoking hippie running a Young buggy full of ore run you down and make a pancake out of your body. The stope was common sense, the Young buggy is incidental. That Young buggy was a case–two wheels up front and one in the back so to go right you steered left. At any rate the first time I tried one I took a hell of bunch of timbers out of a drift. Not my favorite item to steer.
Sonny it is really just standard safety on Fire or on other general assignments.
On fires there are always rolling rocks and logs as well as snags with tops falling out or burned through bases that cause the tree to fall.
Or Helicopters that have mechanical problems. Vehicle accidents and other related accidents. Cutting your self with a tool or some one next to you, or chain saw cuts.
It really falls back on Order # 10—Fight fire aggressively, HAVING PROVIDED FOR SAFETY FIRST.
That just reminds you to watch where you are maintain distance when hiking or using tools eliminate hazards or stay away from them.
So yes there is #10 when it comes to rolling rocks logs snags etc.
Its all the other 100 rules that can ruin your day. not just the Fire burning you up. I am sure in mining you had all those safety rules to fallow.
You have no control of a plane falling out of the air. That’s what I call a real Accident.
The rest or almost all are preventable because they are human decisions.
Human factors, human choices that create a chain of events.
That makes sense Bob and I think some of the time looking out for the young fellows that haven’t had much time could be taxing when on the fire line since some of these thing are learned by experience more than anything.
That’s why on crews there are crew bosses and under them Squad bosses where inexperienced crewmen are placed. for s more one on one supervision.
What Mr. Turbyfill ( father of deceased GMIHC Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ) seems to be telling us up above is that at the little dinner/get-together the Monday night before the Tuesday, April 5, 2016 ‘Staff Ride’ hiking trip… Brit Rosso of the USFS “Wildland Firefighting Lessons Learned Center” got up in front of all the ‘family members’ and basically tried to tell them that what happened to their loved ones was the same as having a tree fall on them.
That they were being ‘good little hotshots’ and were doing EVERYTHING they were supposed to be doing… but they all ended up dead, anyway.
Just like a bunch of ‘trees’ had fallen on them and there was no way anyone could have known that was going to happen.
Shit happens. Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.
It would still be interesting to know if Rosso really did try to make mention of any prior WFF deployment/burnover/fatality ‘incident(s)’… and was also trying to say there was another case of everyone being ‘good little hotshots’, with ALL of LCES and the 10&18 fully and adequately ‘in place’… but they also ended up dead, anyway.
That’s where Rosso would be in for some SERIOUS ‘pushback’.
I wonder what other ‘bullshit’ was being slung in the ‘family members’ direction during that Monday evening ‘get-together’?
No this is not what I was trying to convey, not one of the Cadre tried to say that Granite Mountain followed the 10:18 and despite that, they still died.
I think some of you may want to just reach out and contact Britt Rosso directly. His email and phone number are available on Wildland Lessons Learned Center website..
I have tried David- he is not reaching out to me so far
Reply to David Turbyfill post on April 17, 2016 at 5:51 pm
>> David Turbyfill said…
>>
>> No this is not what I was trying to convey, not one of the
>> Cadre tried to say that Granite Mountain followed
>> the 10:18 and despite that, they still died.
Then my apologies for misunderstanding that…
…but it did feel like that is what you were ‘implying’ up above… or at least might have been suggesting it was what ‘Brit Rosso’, himself, had been ‘implying’ when speaking to the ‘family members’.
What you actually said was…
——————————————————————–
On April 16, 2016 at 9:48 pm, David Turbyfill said…
Bob Powers said this some days ago…
“Show me a fire where all the rules were followed and someone died”.
Bob and others, at the SR Monday night get together the Presenters spoke of 3 fatalities that in fact this Was and IS the case. “You can do everything right and still die”…
… Brit, was a presenter and part of the Cadre on the YHSR.
———————————————————————-
Not having heard the whole presentation… it’s hard to grasp the full ‘context’ of what Rosso was saying, then.
So he was just ‘talking about’ these specific ‘examples’ where he felt all the rules were in place… and WFFs still died ( while speaking to a roomful of family members of deceased members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots ) but was making ‘NO suggestion’ or ‘NO inference’ that these ‘examples’ were, in any way, related to what happened in Yarnell?
That’s a pretty good ‘trick’, actually.
So… despite any speeches about “you can have all the rules in place and still get killed” on the Monday night before the Staff Ride… was there any mention at ALL of LCES and the 10&18 during the Tuesday ‘hike’ itself?
In ANY context whatsoever?
Some of the WFFs that participated in the first ‘Alpha’ Staff Ride in February wrote email comments back to Dan Boursier and the employees at OMNA International who were actually authoring this ‘Staff Ride’ and felt that the omission of ANY mention and/or discussion of LCES and the 10&18 was something that NEEDED to be ‘added to’ the ‘Staff Ride’ itself… at one ( or more ) of the ‘Stands’… in order for it to become a proper ‘Learning Experience’ for other WFFs.
I’m just wondering if the authors of this ‘Staff Ride’ really did listen to those other WFFs from the ‘Alpha’ ride and made any attempt to ‘add’ those suggestions to the ‘scripts’ for the ‘Beta’ Staff Ride.
And if so… what the ‘context’ then was of this ‘mention’ of the LCES and the 10&18 during what is supposed to be a “Learning Experience” with regards to the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Do the authors of the Staff Ride feel that Granite Mountain had some/all of the LCES and 10&18 ‘in place’… or not?
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> I think some of you may want to just reach out and
>> contact Britt Rosso directly. His email and phone number
>> are available on Wildland Lessons Learned Center website..
USFS Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
Contact page…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/contactus
DIRECTOR – Brit Rosso
EMAIL: [email protected]
PHONE: (520) 799-8760
Mr. Turbyfill and WTKTT,
This is based on what Wildland LLC Brit Rosso posted in his Winter 2016 ‘Two More Chains’ article titled “Are You a Survivor.” His section was titled: “The Crew Leader’s Perspective.”
I was not at the SR Monday night get together, however, I have heard this same spiel at many other Staff Rides.
In there Mr. Rosso assures “You can do everything right but still get whacked,” when talking about the NPS Dan Holmes October 2, 2004 tragedy.
As previously considered here, it’s important to note here that this was NOT a FIRE issue, but an ENVIRONMENTAL issue.
These types of hazards were covered in our 19th Watch Out Situation – ‘Death From Above,’ that covered things like hazard trees and snags, i.e. Gravity, as in the Dan Holmes fatality that Mr. Rosso refers to.
Environmental hazards are pretty scary as they are much less predictable.
On the other hand, the fire ALWAYS signals to you what it’s intentions are and what it’s going to do. You just have to be paying attention. Fire Order No, 3 requires it.
Knowing, understanding, recognizing, and mitigating the WFF Rules ALWAYS works to prevent fire-related mishaps. Every single time.
In spite of what has been claimed by many, there are NO fires where WFF’s followed all The WFF Rules, i.e. ‘did everything right.’ and were unexpectedly burned over, deployed fire shelters, and/or were killed. NONE!
Mr. Turbyfil posted: “The Wildland Fire community at large can and should take actions, Overhead is leaving you on your own. They have the 10-18 to relieve them of their responsabilties, and as most of WFF live and breath it.
WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
The WFF and Supervisor at the most basic level, are responsible for the 10-18 and ensuring the safety and welfare of those they supervise. They are NOT a means for the overhead to relieve them of their responsibilities. In fact, neither of the investigative entities (SAIT or ADOSH) really looked into and/or discussed them.
And you are correct, “most of WFF live and breath [the 10-18]”
The GMHS were selectively following most of those WFF Rules on June 30, 2013 and were actually in a perfectly good Safety Zone and could have and should have just stayed there.
They were lacking on the other components of LCES.
They had NO designated Lookout once they abandoned their perfectly good Safety Zone.
And they failed to communicate to Air Attack and/or Bravo 33 that they were leaving their perfectly good Safety Zone and/or what their intentions were and their “predetermined route” and to please be a lookout for them.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on April 17, 2016 at 6:31 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> They had NO designated Lookout once they abandoned
>> their perfectly good Safety Zone.
And even if someday ( somehow ), it ever becomes proven that while Marsh was ‘out ahead’ of Jesse Steed and the GMIHC crew that there was some kind of ‘understanding’ that Marsh was SUPPOSED to be acting as their ‘forward lookout’… it would also simply remain proof that even someone with a fair amount of Wildland Firefighting experience can FAIL that ‘task’… in a horrific fashion.
In there Mr. Rosso assures “You can do everything right but still get whacked,” when talking about the NPS Dan Holmes October 2, 2004 tragedy.
Maybe (I really doubt it) but where does it say you do everything right and you can still have 19 get whacked??
I read the investigation report about the Dan Holmes fatality and I would say that there was definitely a lack of situational awareness…
It states that they saw the snag on fire, knew it would have to be fell across the line. They were breaking and moving hose when it broke “suddenly, without any warning”?????
Really??? It was SMOKING and ON FIRE… How is that for enough of a warning.. If you are an experienced firefighter (sarcasm coming up here) you may know that when a tree is smoking from the inside, that there may be fire within it AND as the fire burns inside it will compromise the strength and integrity of the tree, so maybe stay well away from the tree.
Very few true “accidents” ever occur on the fireline that could not have been mitigated using the 10/18 AND practicing self awareness and situational awareness..
Well said–Of course we all have herd all Accidents are preventable.
Reply to rocksteady post on April 18, 2016 at 10:46 am
>> rocksteady said…
>>
>> I read the investigation report about the Dan Holmes
>> fatality and I would say that there was definitely a
>> lack of situational awareness…
Yep.
The ‘snag’ was deemed SAFE… until their own ‘test burn’ ignited the top of it… then it was classified ‘dangerous’ ( by Brit Rosso himself ) and needed to be cut down. By the time they got their shit together to even try and do that… the top of the snag had been burning for quite some time. Tree is STILL considered ‘dangerous’… and even moreso since a lot of time had already passed with it burning… but then there is Dan Holmes being allowed to just walk right under it to help break some hose lays just so their precious little hoses wouldn’t get hurt if the tree fell on them.
Brilliant.
Do you think Brit Rosso also made it clear to the families of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots that HE, himself, was the one who ‘made the decisions’ that put Dan Holmes where he was when he was killed?
Something tells me he kinda/sorta “skipped that part” of the story.
>> rocksteady also said…
>>
>> It states that they saw the snag on fire, knew it would
>> have to be fell across the line.
Didn’t HAVE to be… that’s just what Brit Rosse wanted to do.
>> rocksteady also said…
>>
>> They were breaking and moving hose when it broke
>> “suddenly, without any warning”?????
>>
>> Really??? It was SMOKING and ON FIRE… How is that
>> for enough of a warning.. If you are an experienced
>> firefighter.(sarcasm coming up here) you may know
>> that when a tree is smoking from the inside, that there
>> may be fire within it AND as the fire burns inside it will
>> compromise the strength and integrity of the tree, so
>> maybe stay well away from the tree.
>>
>> Very few true “accidents” ever occur on the fireline that
>> could not have been mitigated using the 10/18 AND
>> practicing self awareness and situational awareness..
Yep… and I’m still wondering what exact ‘context’ was being used by Brit Rosso when talking about this incident ( and his OWN direct involvement in it ) to the families of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots. What actual POINT was he trying to make, I wonder?
Or was he just ( still? ) working through his OWN GUILT pertaining to this fatality?
** How to guarantee a promotion in the US Forestry Service?
Be directly involved in a fatality on a fireline.
Brit Rosso himself ‘made the call’ that put Dan Holmes where he was when he died.
1. Snag was evaluated and deemed to NOT be a ‘safety hazard’ ( It was NOT burning on the top ).
2. Test fire was conducted. Embers from this test fire ignited the top of the snag. Visible flames.
3. Division A Supervisor Brit Rosso is made aware of this. He decides the snag is now ‘dangerous’ and needs to be cut down.
4. Brit Rosso calls in a Class C falling team from the Arrowhead Interagency Hotshot Crew to evaluate the burning snag.
5. Brit Rosso disagrees with their plan to drop the snag.
6. Brit Rosso suggests they ‘break the hose lay’ so snag could be dropped ACROSS the fireline.
7. Arrowhead Hotshot falling team decides to do what Brit Rosso wants instead of their first plan ( to just drop it inside the fire break ).
8. Arrowhead Hotshot Dan Holmes is passing by the snag to help ‘break hose lays’ like Rosso wants.
9. There is no lookout. Top of burning snag falls as Holmes passes under the snag. He is killed.
Result: Brit Rosso is promoted to DIRECTOR of the USFS’s “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center”.
From…
https://www.nps.gov/fire/wildland-fire/resources/documents/danholmes-accident-investigation-report.pdf
————————————————————–
At 10:42 a.m., all fireline personnel were in place at the burn unit and the prescribed fire burn boss and burn boss trainee determined that operations would begin with a test burn at the eastern edge of the burn unit (figure 4). This test burn would allow them to evaluate burning conditions, particularly smoke dispersion. The test burn was larger than normal so that sufficient smoke would be generated to accurately evaluate smoke dispersion. It showed the dispersion was to the northeast, a very favorable condition. Winds were light and variable, generally from the southwest.
During this test burn, an area of brush and short trees located downhill and southeast of the accident snag caught fire. Witness firefighters reported that this torching generated a column of embers which rose to the top of the accident snag. An adjacent sugar pine was scorched 60 feet above the ground. Within minutes, firefighters saw smoke coming from top portions of the accident snag in an area where the bark was gone and a secondary crown had formed. Minutes after that, flames were observed.
Upon successful completion of the test burn, Prescribed Fire Burn Boss Ben Jacobs and Prescribed Fire Burn Boss Trainee Leslie Uhr provided the Burn Plan Execution Go/No-Go Checklist to the Division B Supervisor Dave Allen for signature. Jacobs and Uhr moved west, up the line, to a location within sight of the accident snag, bringing the checklist to Division A Supervisor Brit Rosso. Rosso was aware of the fire in the top of the snag and now considered it a spot fire risk on the down wind side of the unit. He determined that the snag now needed to be felled. He called in a Class C falling team from the Arrowhead Interagency Hotshot Crew to evaluate the burning snag.
The falling team consisted of Falling Boss Mark Gerwe, Class C Faller Trainee Jake Akerberg, and swamper Daniel Holmes. Akerberg did the size-up of the snag with Gerwe nearby to observe and consult (figure 5). The initial plan was to drop the snag inside the fireline to the west. This would have been challenging because the snag had a slight lean to the north. Rosso suggested a second option would be to break the hose lay which ran along the line; put out lateral hose lines to the side where the snag was leaning; fall it across the line; and immediately attack it as a spot fire. Since the burn was currently contained to the test area with no other holding concerns, and there were adequate personnel available to accomplish this task, the falling team decided that this was the better plan.
According to Akerberg and Gerwe, Akerberg and Holmes had finished the sizing-up task and were passing under the snag, moving east along the fireline, on their way to assist other firefighters reconfigure the hose lay. At this point there were at least 15 other firefighters with a view of the snag, although no one was specifically assigned to be a lookout.
Several firefighters saw the top of the snag fall and yelled a warning. Others looked up and saw the snag top as it was falling. Several firefighters said that it made a whistling sound during its 2.5 to 3-second fall (figures 6 and 7). Akerberg and Holmes were passing directly under the snag when multiple warning yells were made. Witnesses said that the two had begun to run to the east and had traveled no more than two steps when the tree top came down end-wise on Holmes’ helmet, cracking its shell in two places. He was immediately knocked to the ground. A large ash cloud formed, blocking the vision of most observers. Holmes was knocked unconscious. It was apparent to the first persons rendering aid that he had a serious head injury.
———————————————————
Right on David–a bunch of excuses using the LCES and 10 and 18. The bosses run the show but damn sure do not want to take responsibility when we know damn well that Marsh had orders from head quarters or he never would have led his men down to attempt to Pulaski around homes. When you see these boys being fined to the max by investigators that see the wrong–then you are an idiot if you thing Marsh and Steed are the sole blame for the deaths of their subjects. Ted tells me, even though he would have denied the cadre it is a hard thing to do. I do not think Marsh was that much of an idiot and knew he had a big risk–but it was both ways–if he denied the strict rule of obedience what were the consequences. He was too much of a city boy to understand that he was about to kill his men by orders from above== He took the chance to please someone and his men were killed–probably fortunately for him too since you know damn will the bosses would have put the blame solely on him.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26156982-the-fire-line
so Fernanda Santos book is out—did not even know—
Going on a SELT imposed time out.
Way too much drama that is not getting us any closer to the truth…
Tired of the bullshit bickering….
See you in a few months or if something important comes to light…
It has become a place to launch personal attacks… That is not why I am here…
Bye bye…
HOLD THE PRESSES….NEWS FLASH….BREAKING NEWS
I am pleased to announce that due to the recent falling out I have had with one of my heroes, Mr. Bob Powers, who helped build our house and on whose shoulders I stood (yikes) on for so many years I am taking ANOTHER sabbatical from this thread to think about what I want to be when I grow up.
I am also going to actually start writing the book that I will never finish, “The Rise of the Hybrid Firefighter”, which is a step in the right direction because I didn’t think I would ever even start it so….
If anyone has information that you think I need, or would like to know to be included in what is sure to be an epic tome, please email me at [email protected] as always, your name and identity will be kept confidential so…lets chat by email. I now bid you adieu.
P.S., Joy, I saw the question you asked me down below about why I am bitchin’ about Burfiend and how unfair you think it is, but all I can say is that we are going to have to agree to disagree about his role in this debacle. But I can tell you this much…he is getting his own chapter in my book I have already named…”What The Fuck Was John Burfiend Thinking?”
Sonny, I am going to post a photo of my grandfather just as soon as I find the only photo I have of him because you will appreciate what an old time cowboy he really was.
To everyone else…please remember that I will always be but a mouse click away if there is anything I can do to help you or ruin you day…farewell for now.
No way–no sabbaticals of any duration Gary. I just had a long talk with Ted–much in alignment with your prognosis here–has some things working. Two of the nation’s best on this thing does not hurt one bit–remember Ted was refused a hike by Willis, FS, Sheriff et. al., yet you would have thought they would have jumped on the opportunity to have a man with his abilities look at this thing. It would be nice if the two of you hiked it together and I would be honored to accompany. My Dad used to say two heads is better than one, even if one is a sheep head. I didn’t bleet but knew what he was saying.
Thanks for the info on the Apache–I did have a few friends among them and several of the Laguna when I worked on their reservation at Seboyeta, NM. That mine belonged to Standard Oil of Ohio and was the one that a cave in ended my contract miner career. Hamilton had a mine a few miles from there and since they were Union had went on a strike for better wages. The only Union operated mine I worked for was underground as a raise miner at Fierro, NM. A few months there and they went on strike–well as a miner I was making money according to fottage, not days pay which I could easily double or triple. So off I went to Nevada. About 9 months later I got news that the strike was settled and days wage people got a ten cent raise in pay. Some of them missed out on a lot of money but I suppose unemployment benefits–something I never had–were good enough for their 10 cent raise.
I did learn plenty of Spanish there since most were Mexican–I cant remember a single white guy and very few that could talk English. They were good miners though, except one got his head in a hydraulic chute door trying to get a jam loose and wound up with his brains squashed out. I don’t know if they measured the size of them but they couldn’t have been huge. I did learn a lot of Spanish there and even took 4 years later at NMSU but never could talk as fast as that Mexican Wife I had. She could say ten words to my one and had ten questions before I could answer one when I didn’t made it home late from the Cantina.
Don’t go far Gary cause if you do get off I won’t be bothering to goad the cadre. Well they enjoy it since they know it is true and I can rattle all I want. My fangs are relatively harmless against a juggernaught. But for loved ones sake and especially for those poor fellows that were doing their best against all odds, yet were killed we can not give up. They have no voice but ours, and you know damn well they want all the bare facts out there.
My psychic friend said that Marsh wanted to thank me from the other side. She did not know what for but saw me stooping to pick something up off the ground. Well it runs a chill down my back because Joy reminded me that not long ago on Easter when we visited that memorial in Prescott all the 18 in there had flowers but his spot did not. It appeared it had blown from its vessel some distance from the spot, so I picked it up and stooped down an put it there in his vessel. I don’t know if that is his actual grave since WTKTT tells me many are buried else where but it looks like 19 graves there. A sadness hangs over me every time I think of those guys and I even have tears right now–something I guess comes so much because I think of my own child and how he lost his life.
I think the man was just doing what he was told to do and all the redactions and loss of communication was to cover headquarters. I say this from Willis’s communication and from the so called last communication from the black where Marsh said we are in the safe black, talk to Blue Ridge. Blue Ridge must have turned down the assignment–they don’t do structures (not Hybrid) so then as Willis said that is what they do–structures. I think time will tell that some and maybe four were involved in pressuring Marsh. Dead men can’t talk, except Psychics say they do. And some of these Psychics can run chills down your back telling you things they have now way of having former knowledge.
Looking forward to that photo of your grandpa and more of your posting. You and WTKTT and side talks with Ted keep me alive here. Well I get some from others here too but then we do not always have to agree with their version or agenda whichever it may be.
Right on Sonny…thanks.
** FROM GARRET ZUPPIGER’S AUNT…
**
** “WE STILL WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED!”
Yarnell Fire Realities
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/photos/a.1425473211024464.1073741827.1425471334357985/1704578489780600/?type=3&theater
NOTE: Karen Pyfl is Garret Zuppiger’s aunt.
Her brother is Dylan Zuppiger, Garret Zuppiger’s father.
—————————————————————————-
Comment from Karen Pfyl – posted yesterday ( April 15, 2016 ) at 7:30 AM
We all know that there is more to it, then what is being admitted.
They were well trained and their leaders were very experienced.
Since they do not have a voice, they can be blamed for what happened.
Due to the lawsuit or whatever it was, the state does not have to be held responsible.
I realize that it will not bring our family members back,
but we still want to know WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED.
I do not believe the watered down line of crap that is being portrayed as the truth.
We have to be their voice.
Zuppiger forever and always.
—————————————————————————-
Zuppiger’s family lives near here too- they are a part of this community here- one of the reasons so many locals stay out of it just too close to home for the locals and rather not show their photos or accounts…but sure wish they would…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on April 15, 2016 at 10:55 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Zuppiger’s family lives near here too- they are a part of this
>> community here- one of the reasons so many locals stay out
>> of it just too close to home for the locals and rather not show
>> their photos or accounts…but sure wish they would…
Well then… someone needs to clue them in about how Garret’s
immediate family still feels
That post above is not from some time in the past.
It is from YESTERDAY, and part of a discussion about what did ( and did NOT ) happen on last week’s ‘Beta Staff Ride’.
They STILL want to know “WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED!”.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Zuppiger’s family lives near here too
Yes. Two of Garret’s grandparents live right there in Peeples Valley.
Marcie and Len Theokas
http://kjzz.org/content/159768/yarnell-honors-granite-mountain-hotshots-2-years-after-arizonas-deadliest-fire
——————————————————————————
The firefighters died on a Sunday, so now the people of Yarnell come together in the center of town to remember the blaze — one Sunday a year. Dozens were gathered under a big, white tent, right next to a plaque with 19 photos of young men. But somehow, there was more gratitude in the air than sorrow, even for those who lost the most.
Len Theokas and his wife Marcie stayed longer at the emotional get-together than most.
“Garett Zuppiger, who by virtue of his last name is always the last on the list, was my grandson — our only grandchild, actually,” Len said.
They’ve lived a short ways up the road in Peeples Valley for years, but never felt part of the community like they have since the fire. And it’s not just about that purple ribbon a stranger left on a tree outside their home. Len said locals have really banded together, and made them feel included. Now, any time they go into town it takes an hour, he said, because they always stop to chat with people they care about — and who care about them.
“It’s been unbelievable. It’s been enriching,” Len said. “We are blessed.”
——————————————————————————
I was asleep when Sonny said you ready to go to legion and split a meal? I was shocked to drive into town to see a Dollar General store “open” and ready to go here in tiny town Yarnell…As I am at the legion a discussion on the memorial trail was present and I was asked have I been up there lately and I explained it is restricted and I have been at ACRI and seen the trail in recent months because he is neighbors to the trail- The woman stated when they were on trail someone told them just to be mindful while up there and as they pass FANN’s construction then the group building it they came to a pile of rocks and thought that it dead ended there…Norb, do you feel if someone was not with you up there and its your first time like they have done it four times that pile of rocks was IT…they then dropped down and curved out by the Helms where the cattle pond/old burro trail path is…I wonder how come they felt it was a dead end…the Weavers flatten but if you just keep walking it towards Peeples Valley it does become that two track road. I guess my point is they were not told that the area and trail is under construction and is still legally “off limits” so why am I told long ago by a LA fire chief mid July 2013 that the area became restricted but not these folks who are out hiking the area…why did state serve me a map of restriction and not these people…seems very particular when they too are seeking clarity but they get “just be mindful” and I am thinking how much mindful can Joy be when I have the mindful man himself present…Dr. Ted Putnam. So I just wanted to publicly NOTE that people told me that they were shocked I got a restricted notice because they went out and all they got was be mindful so it made them disbelief me and my journey in this and it is FACTS that did happen to me…I am glad people are being told by folks up there it is not restricted…because if they ever opted to mess with me I have a list of people who were treated different even though we share the same goal…
also Gary- why are you bringing John B. to the forefront- as if he is protecting some area in regards to him- I am sorry but I do not feel John B. has an area hidden and to place him to the forefront is no different than me placing that man talking to the person who did the radio and gave by innocence wrong information that person has to feel damned if he does or does not…”does” because holding that innocent information in and carrying the weight “will” in time take its toll on him health-wise but if he does talk the truth will kill him sooner health-wise because of the mean people and litigations…we are all humans and sometimes it is to protect or what one calls “cover-up/white wash” but what if the simple truth is as innocent as such and this thought they were ordered to do structures ends up not even a topic that day…and it ended up being just as simple as misunderstanding on both ends and IN THAT misunderstanding/miscommunications it led the world to view the men broke every rule in the book; lces and 10&18 but the core comes down to this poor tidbit via radio-
I do not think aerial John B. has to feel any blame in this or weight…and I applaud him for taking time out to the forefront in front of the loved ones…GRIEF can cause people to think John B. is involved and in the light Gary and WWTKTT place up front it can be glazed a certain way but what if this light of information makes another formulate an assessment but it was not what went down 6-30-13?
Again, Sonny comes in- says “Joy, there is people I would like you to meet.” and as I go there and meet them…I share what we know…and went to the funeral at 2 until just now (Sonny stayed behind and worked on boulders- two funerals in this week- GG was her name….She was born in 32′—a lot of this dropping numbers to how many have died could be sifted out that 1/3 was from the drop but 1/3 was contributing factors from that drop and 1/3 it was just their time…but it was neat to be at this funeral to learn it is a family filled with chemical researchers and engineers. I was excited that this topic will now be looked into deeper- Well, love is fierce and constant….and I thought during the service what memory do I cling to? Breathtakingly complex. This woman’s long time home burned in the YHF and she is no longer with us and she was Sonny’s neighbor…human factors lay in my memory because as the desert walker Rose came to me and said wow I am seeing you a lot lately and I had been thinking about you right before seeing you…the mind can do that…you think of something than there it is…this chemical drop is worth looking into…I mean obviously the chemicals are immune suppressors and people are paying a high price for the retardant drops as they were done and where they were done so if any aerial should be at the forefront- it is the one that caused frustration that day with drops-
Shit going to so many funerals wears on ya—I mean I might even start attending a church since I seem to always be there.
Gary the best gift we give one another is our presence here to humbly sift through and figure this out so maybe there is a good reason you called John B. to the forefront but I could not see it-
Let’s keep talking…long after the days are gone…
Gary, follow me on this—
so say there was an authority dialogue yet not surfaced via radio and both ends the authorities directing his information to dispatch said some misinformation and chaos and confusion happened and the men heard it their own way—so that authority figure when he realizes they were not disobeying you–maybe just maybe they heard it different and it could be as simple as that- my left is different than your left—
Zupplinger’s aunt agrees with Turbyfill’s statement after the stiff ride: “Last week I went on the Staff Ride for the Yarnell Hill Fire, as a Family member, I was more than disappointed. I observed that the ICMT from both Saturday and Sunday believe in this fairy tale that “They” made no decisions that they wouldn’t do again.” as brought to our attention by WTKTT.
Being more than disappointed and pointing out that the love ones are dealing with a fairy tale tell us that the loved ones know damn well they have been fed a bunch of malarkey. The apt reference Gary uses of circling the wagons continues to be the order of the day for the cadre. `It seems they are happy in the way they do things in their closed organization and are do not want change even if it is at the expense of wild land fire fighter lives. They talk out of two sides of their mouths–appeasement–but that is not what the loved ones want or the public that has a right to. It is obvious that the ploy to blame Marsh and Steed as sole parties responsible for the deaths of the 17 ,is an attempt to cover a flawed system. The cover up is not to protect the sensitivities of the loved ones, it is to protect the reputations and positions of those that ran the show at Yarnell. History will bear that out.
I really got to thinking about our current state of affairs, i.e. my feud with Bob and some of my answers to Charlie’s questions down below and I came up with this comment.
I think Bob has done everyone who is on the outside of the wildland firefighting community trying to look in and who are either participating in, or reading this blog a huge service with his recent comments. I could have explained to you how it is, and you may even have known how it is, but nothing beats witnessing how it is for yourself.
I mean…this is some REAL tribal interaction we have going on. As in… “You fuck with someone in my tribe you fuck with ME and I will run you through with my spear” tribal interaction.
So…I haven’t changed one little bit. I haven’t gone off the rails or into the gutter. I have never been up on the rails or out of the gutter. That has been my shtick on this thread, channeling my old “back of the hotshot bus self.”
What has changed is my focus. Bob was more than fine with my comments as long as they were not directed at someone in his tribe. Once that changed…I had to be silenced as a “wimpy little piece of shit” so Bob could go “barf” after reading one of my comments.
Recent research has led me to discover that John Burfiend is an ex hotshot crew boss, unless this is another John Burfiend who is shown as the Silver City Hotshot Crew Boss from 2000-2001. So…that would explain a great deal to me why his tribe has closed ranks around him with such zeal and fervor.
https://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dc/nmsdc/documents/Crews/NMSDC_SilverCity_IHC_Histroy.pdf
As I have told you and you have probably picked up, the wildland firefighting community LOVES their hotshot crew bosses and they put them on very high pedestals from where the view is very nice and their career potential is only limited by their imaginations or willingness to move and take on more responsibility.
Smokejumpers are NOT the favored sons, they are too aloof, too few and too specialized. It is certainly not a bad career move, but they are viewed in much the same way the “regular” army types view the “special forces” types, especially before Special Forces became the in thing with our ongoing wars without borders…with some misgivings and great mistrust.
But hotshot crew bosses are universally loved and respected because there is one on many western forests (a USFS term, pick another division boundary name for other agencies that now also have hotshot crews) or on the forest next door that are the Praetorian Guard. And remember, for the majority of my career as a hotshot, ONLY the USFS had hotshot crews.
The National Park Service was the first “other” agency that started a hotshot crew called the Arrowhead Hotshots; the symbol for the NPS is an arrowhead so go figure. And that was highly controversial and the USFS fought hard against it as something that was blasphemy and only heretics would support.
Talk about a crew that had a lot to prove and had the cards stacked against them in a very similar way to how I have read the Granite Mountain Hotshots did. I have read they were not accepted by many other crews and had to continually prove themselves, at least in Eric Marsh’s mind, and yes, that is another big and important casual factor in their deaths.
Now that I know John Burfiend is an ex hotshot crew boss, I can tell you what I think happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire. I think Mr. Burfiend heard the crew yelling for help just as everybody else did but because he is as full of hubris and self importance as the rest of us former hotshot crew bosses are, he deliberately ignored them because they were “yelling” at him.
Just look at Bob’s rage towards me, I’m not even sure Bob was a hotshot crew boss, he may have just been an assistant crew boss and he thinks he still runs the world. And that was a really long time ago because Bob is a really old washed up over the hill has been now.
I really do feel sorry for Mr. Burfiend (not really, that was sarcasm). But he is going to have to live with what he did for the rest of his life. Luckily for him, his tribe has rallied around him and his unforgivable sin seems to have been forgiven by them and it has not hurt his career advancement. So…there is always that as a consolation prize for being the biggest asshole in the history of wildland firefighting…right?
1972, 1973, April 1974– GS-6 Assistant Hot Shot Superintendent–Thank you.
1967 and 68 and 70 detailed Chilao and Oak Grove back up Crew Boss.
Set me up for my transfer and promotion to Assistant Superintendent Oak Grove.
I was already a GS 6 fire prevention officer.
May be old and over the Hill but I have not forgot what I learned.
Speaking of the Forest Service I grew up in it from the time I was 5 with 2 Fathers that worked for the Forest Service. I have a lot invested in my Tribe some would say I bleed green and they are right.
I knew the steps up the ladder and I used them The HS crew got me to Asst. District FMO to GS9 Asst. Forest FMO my goal was a GS 11 but I liked where I landed and my Family wanted to stay so that’s where my carrier ended. I never regretted that decision. I invested in all my gray hair old but never Washed up.
Having also a huge investment in the 10 standard orders I will always stand and fight for them till my last breath. I paid dearly for THREE of THEM.
Oh…so you were an the number TWO man for a couple of years. I used to have one of those for the entire SEVEN years I was a USFS HOTSHOT CREW BOSS and FOUR of those years were on the crew that I FOUNDED…as in started from scratch.
A lot of people can tell me a lot of things, but NOBODY can tell me a FUCKING thing about being a hotshot or a HOTSHOT CREW BOSS!
Not even Fred with his 27 years. He was just too afraid to move or take on more responsibility. You know like I did, when I finished my career as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Senior Special Agent) working for the Washington D.C. Office of my agency.
I retired at the same pay scale as a GS-15 with more than THIRTY YEARS. I am good enough to be a one man tribe…so if you fuck with me…you fuck with ME!
Oh…and I have said this before, but just as a reminder…I became a hotshot crew at the age of TWENTY THREE after only three years as a hotshot.
I was the youngest hotshot crew boss in the history of hotshot crews in the nation.
(If anyone knows of a younger one, let me know and I will stop making that claim.)
Whoops, “Oh…and I have said this before, but just as a reminder…I became a hotshot crew BOSS at the age of TWENTY THREE after only three years as a hotshot.
I was the youngest hotshot crew boss in the history of hotshot crews in the nation.
(If anyone knows of a younger one, let me know and I will stop making that claim.)”
Oh…and as a reminder, my grandfather (who would have been the only grandfather I would have known since my father ran away from home as a teenager and lied about his age to be a Marine serving in the South Pacific during WWII before he was killed in an underground mine accident where there were almost no NO FUCKING rules to keep anybody safe was killed while working for the U.S. Forest Service by bad dynamite…you want to compare sob stories?
And unlike YOUR mother…my mother never remarried so I grew up with no male role model. Do you really want to compare sob stories. Oh, here is one more, my mother got a total of $5000.00 for my fathers death because of asshole politicians who were probably Republicans had been bought off by the mining industry.
I BLEED RED…just like the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew who died on the Yarnell Hill Fire because of your buddy’s BUDDIES. So FUCK YOU BOB…and I guarantee it, if you really want to really see if I can take you down. I would FUCK YOU UP BAD! Motherfucker.and break your old bones like matchsticks.
So…just let me know when and where you want to get together and talk about the good times we never had.
Oh…and one more thing. That is what I sound like when I am off the rails. Very few people have ever wanted to deal with me when I have been off the rails in my life. So…just sayin’…..
Gary so that means your grandfather and father were killed in mine accidents? Oddly my Dad ran away from home at 14 years of age then lied about his age at 15 to join the Army during WW1 and then went to Alsace Lorraine to become a machine gunner.
I attempted to join the Marines but they declined me because I was already drafted to go into the Army. Small world it is and so strange that I worked in the same mine your Dad died in. I think I was there some years after your Dad since I worked there 1966 for Kerr McGhee in Section 30 our of Grants, NM. Conditions weren’t much better than the 50’s when I think your Dad was working there. I was very impressed with his photo as if I had worked along side him somewhere but then he reminds me of a guy almost identical in looks and stature when I was on the Streets of Seattle for about a year back in 2001. Actually I had become a city boy and was living out of my old van–this guy ran into some money and gave me his camper rig since he had bought a new one. I took that to Dolan Springs, AZ where I lived on 10 acres for about 8 years until I met Joy.
After living in Dolan Springs I always said that I had done my purgatory in hell there–that place is hot and windy about 10 months out of the year. No problem going to heaven now for me but I likely won’t handle the harp music too long anyway.
Listening to what you say tells me mining was best for me. The politics were never so bad there. I did a year contract once in El Paso for Adult Probation where the politics are rampant–but then I was happy to get back to something different-logging. Another job that you either bust ass or you are gone. Pay is by footage and if you couldn’t make better than days pay, $7.00 then you were not a logger. Only a year there until the Sierra Club shut that job down. Well they moved us but then the men only had tooth picks to cut and footage and distance was not enough to keep 17 men at work. So I did my own wood business for about ten years.
Funny thing the logging company that was White Sands Lumber were not clear cutting and instead thinning forest around Cloudcroft, NM. It seemed a good thing to me since thinning reduced the risk of fire–but I can see how the chain saws might disrupt the spotted owl. I never saw one except one time one of the loggers had one as a hood ornament–he had collected it in his radiator when buzzing down the highway after work.
There were however some nasty forest fires in the area about the time I was there and much good timber was burned. I never heard of any fatalities in the area and have no idea what crews were working those fires. Much area was burned between Cloudcroft and Ruidoso, NM and I had heard it was a controlled burn that got away.
It is too bad that the system works too much toward the political angle and where the system works toward brown nosing and cronyism. It appears that this is what is going on with the Yarnell situation. Truth is going to hurt some here, but it will benefit where it counts–change things so we do not see the deaths of those young souls that had no reason to die.
I do see change in the guard at Yarnell–even a new attitude and people that are out doing some good work. That is what we like to see in the fire fighter community. Now the government needs to invest some good money in improving conditions and safety once they see how those men were actually set up to die.
Thanks Sonny. No…my post was a little convoluted but my grandfather was a USFS permittee and a rancher out of Alpine, Arizona. He worked for the USFS as a firefighter and building logging roads for cash money because you know how it goes being a rancher.
It’s like the two brothers who each inherited one million dollars and the second brother asked the first brother, who was a rancher, what he was going to do with his money? And the first brother said, “Well…I guess I’ll just keep on ranching…at least until I run out of money.”
So no…my grandfather was the crew boss, the dynamite charge didn’t go off, so he went forward to see why. And of course when he got up to the charge, it went off.
He was taken to the clinic on the Apache Indian Reservation at White River in the back of a pickup truck. They say it took him three days to die. They also say he was so tall, he hung off the end of the hospital bed by a foot.
My mother was a little girl when he was killed and her mother never remarried either but she got a pension from the USFS for the rest of her life. I loved the USFS. I grew up hearing stories at my grandmother’s house about fighting wildfires in the mountains. I will scan in a photo of my grandfather and post a link. Now there was a man’s man.
If it would have been me, I would have gotten a rifle and shot at that fucking bundle of dynamite until it went off. But you know how it was back then; they probably didn’t want to waste the bullets.
Oh…and one more thing. If you know that country, my grandfathers ranch was down on the Blue. My mother always described his cows as, “those damn cows.” They got all of the money and all of his time.
I don’t know much about White River Apache area but I did have a fire agate mine that I worked near Klondike, AZ. At that time I would stop at the Geronimo Bar which was on the line of the San Carlos Reservation before that long stretch toward Globe. John Roberts had that place which was burned down during the time I lived there. He knew how to deal with the Apache but either leased or sold the place to another guy that did not. The new guy shot and wounded the Chief’s son at the bar so the tribe went down there and tore hell out of the place and it never reopened. There at Cloudcroft and Ruidoso were the Mescalero Apache and a bit separate from the White River tribe but they were back and forth. Some good cowboys in that bunch but they damn sure liked to fight–I had my share of bar fights with a few when I was mining up there–but once they got whipped they respected me–but I bought more than a few beers for those guys when I used to visit Roberts. See he was a hard rock miner out of Globe before he bought the Bar so we got along well.
Sad about your grandpa getting killed like that. There is an old gold mine my Dad was mining in Saw Mill canyon (where we had put out more than one lightening strike in that forest area of the Burro Mountains). Well he had not been to that diggings for he said 20 years but had a case of dynamite stored there and covered up in brush and rock. It was crystallized so he knew better than use it so put a stick of fresh powder on top. That old powder still made a hell of a blast even after all those years. What you said about shooting it with a rifle is quite true. Dick and Genevieve Davis, Lazy E Ranch out of Las Cruces, had a case that was getting old so Dick took it off about a hundred yards from his ranch house and shot it with his 30-30. He didn’t take it far enough since it broke out every window in his ranch house. Your granddad must have been in pretty good condition to have lived that long.
It was something you always had to watch for in a mine–If you had a round that didn’t completely pull and left some live holes all you needed to do was drill into one dud round to mangle or kill yourself. Quite a few miners met their demise that way. Fresh powder is relatively safe to handle but it is the primers or caps as miners call them that you had to worry about. If you had been around a number of old miners there were a few missing fingers. I can tell you though that my kids did get to set of some real fire crackers on the 4th of July. I won’t elaborate since this is the cookie cutter world that the old time miner, cowboy and logger can’t quite fit into and your new “educated variety” has little understanding of real life–at least as some of the old timers understood it.
When I think about it, that old black fuse we used burned at about a foot a minute. If you kinked it then it might hang fire like a rifle with a bad primer. Those old loggers and miners were not exactly gentle with what they did and I suppose even if they were using electric blasting caps those could be defective and hang fire.
And you were right about the bullets–Dad allowed me a box of 22’s and a box of 410’s. None of them went to shoot cans and almost every shell brought home meat for the skillet. Those old miner’s could get by on little. It was a hundred pounds of beans, a sack of potatoes, big cans of Crisco grease, Salt, Pepper, and he had a kid that broght in the meat. He could swing a single Jack all day long and I can still hear that drill steel pinging–he had a rhythm that matched his banjo picking. He never struck gold but he had a hell of a time trying and I never minded the life in those tents when we were prospecting. My sisters both said it was a miserable way to live though. Maybe like wild land fire fighting–not an easy joy for a woman.
Well…it sounds like you leaped right over where my people came from. They were all pioneers in the White Mountains of Arizona. But that country is all east of White River etc. but way west from Ruidoso etc. And the Apache Tribes are also way different, with as you said the Mescalero Apaches coming out of the Ruidoso New Mexico area.
The White Mountain Apache are from land the Great Creator truly blessed centered around historic Fort Apache. When General George Crook showed to massacre any Apache he found, the White Mountain Apache got on board with the program.
So General Crook enrolled the White Mountain Apache warriors to serve as scouts for his army during the Fifteen-Year Apache Wars against all of the other Apache Tribes until the surrender of the Chiricahua Apache leader Geronimo.
Because of the Scouts’ service to General Cook during the Apache Wars, their tribe was able to maintain a large portion of their homeland as the White Mountain Apache reservation and it is truly some of the most beautiful and bountiful mountains you will ever see anywhere.
Anyway, down on the Blue River off the Mongollon Rim is where my grandfathers ranch was, right in the heart of the White Mountains.
I have a very soft spot in my heart for the White Mountain Apache people because Apache 20, which was an all female crew, cut a fire line around me while I was sleeping dead to the world on the Ship Island Creek Fire in Idaho.
That line kept me from being disturbed while our spike camp was being burned over with both ground and crown fire in the middle of the burning period one day. I had set up my hootch down off the saddle a little ways from the crew because it was a nice shady spot, but not after that day.
I looked up with bleary eyes still in a sleep stupor through a circle grunting women past their sweat streaked faces as they cut line around me and I could see crown fire right over their heads. Ah….memories.
Well Gary I became a Engine foreman in 1965 I was 21 also a certified Crew Boss and going to fires as such all over California by 22.
Was a Sector boss before I went to the Shots in 1971 and went to fires in that capacity through out the country. I was a DIVS by 1975.
Well all you did was run a crew did you make Sector Boss?
I did not think we were back to the F words again Your off your meds
you seriously need a Doctor.
Last time I respond to an idiot called Gary. Adios MF————
Something else Ex-Hotshot, then flyboy, now Director of USFS NAFRI ( National Advanced Fire and Research Institute, Tucson, Arizona ) John Burfiend has to ‘live with’…
We had a long discussion about it here, of course, and came to our own conclusions… but there are still LOTS of people out there who believe that if Burfiend HAD answered Jesse Steed’s first emergency radio call right away… and their exact location had been also been determined right away… that there still MIGHT have been SOME chance to drop an entire VLAT full of retardant somewhere that might have made a difference in what happened in the next 5 minutes following those radio calls.
Caveat: I ( me, personally ), do not think there was a chance in hell… unless pilot Kevin in the VLAT was willing to chance people having to scrape his body off the side of the Weaver Mountains later that evening… but that’s not my point.
SOME people DO believe there was ‘a chance’… if only Burfiend had responded to Jesse’s desperate pleas for help right away.
Maybe the reason that John Burfiend just took that job in Tucson as DIRECTOR of NAFRI isn’t for the obvious reason of it just being close enough where he wouldn’t have to move but still put him at the salary level he needs and behind a desk he can now fly into retirement.
Maybe it really DOES have something to do with the fact that the actual USFS “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center” is physically located at the facility that HE is now the DIRECTOR of.
Maybe he’s trying to just make SURE the ‘right’ things are being said about him at all times… and in any ‘written material’ that ends up being published about the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Guilt can make people do strange things… and stranger things have happened, I suppose.
**
** AIR ATTACK JOHN BURFIEND AT LAST WEEK’S STAFF RIDE
Well… if there was some kind of ‘agreement’ amongst the participants of last week’s ‘Beta’ Staff Ride to NOT openly discuss the ‘questions and answers’, as is being reported by Bob Powers… then ( apparently ) the parents of deceased Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ( David and Shari Turbyfill ) didn’t ‘get that memo’.
The following is that Facebook post from ‘Yarnell Hill Realities’ that David Turbyfill himself talked about himself down below in this thread… and there are now some very interesting comments appearing… including a ‘report’ on exactly what Air Attack Jon Burfiend had to say about why he wasn’t responding to Granite Mountain’s radio callouts…
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/photos/a.1425473211024464.1073741827.1425471334357985/1704578489780600/?type=3&theater
———————————————————————————————
Bret Henry said…
I believe, sadly, and from 23 years of fire experience, and after 9 years in the Marines, that, not always, but many fire management people, especially at the municipal level are, like politicians, sociopathic ego maniacs. Ie; listen to radio traffic on some tragedies… telling crews to be quiet that were calling for help. Many have heard this traffic… I wonder how that guy feels now, is he sad and it’s hard to live with or is he a chief somewhere enjoying many benefits and getting his lunch money back that was taken form him, telling grand stories of fire to any that listen.
Shari Turbyfill replied…
I asked him ( John Burfiend ) that question face to face of The Man Behind the microphone of Bravo 33 they fall back on some training saying proper protocol for emergency break in which we’ve discovered throughout the nation is not standard its random. There is no rule or guideline in wildfire….strutual yes……so more cover up more excuses no more truth truth is in the ground. this is JFK and Jimmy Hoffa all over again….. Arizona State Fire will never be a stand-up Department of the state with the personnel and culture currently in place . They have the truth but they’d rather cover their asses than be stand up people and do the right thing. We will never know the truth and that is really personal for 19 families
Bret Henry replied…
Very sad. Generally speaking, it’s a bad culture. I would almost like to hear that he felt bad at least, for that.
Shari Turbyfill replied…
He ( John Burfiend ) did and then proceeded to educate me on why it wasn’t his fault
———————————————————————————————
WTKTT
I do not remember saying there was any kind of a direction to not openly discuss the questions or answers memo or otherwise to the Families or other participants in the Staff ride. I am not sure where you got I said that or your interrupted I said that.
Nor was RTS ever told he could not repeat what was asked or what was stated.
I understood that what ever was asked or responded to was open to any one to reprint or
carry to others.
Please Identify where I said that. Thank you.
What I said after review.
The Directors and some family members set some rules for the Ride that RTS agreed to. Rules for every one. None of which were to not openly discuss questions and answers.
You assumed that in a rebuttal to my statement above.
RTS may have agreed to not talking about things ask by the Families.
The key here is MAY HAVE AGREED. He was with at least four Families in his group. All I said here was that there may have been a request not that there was.
Unless you can find something else you put words down I DID NOT SAY.
I am waiting for an apology.
Or maybe its just time to bash me instead of RTS??????????
Here is the statement from Otis.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-332002
I see you found your own quote already.
Otis then asked you if this amounted to some sort of actual ‘GAG ORDER’ that was being agreed to. You then said you would describe it more like an agreement to be ‘considerate of the family members’ ( whatever that means ).
The context of the thread was a discussion abut WHY RTS might be reluctant to openly talk about questions/answers that took place during the Staff Ride… and this was the explanation YOU were inserting into the discussion.
So no apology is headed your way.
I will, however, change just one word up above.
I will change the word ‘reported to the word ‘suggested’..
So that would make the paragraph above now read like this…
————————————–
Well… if there was some kind of ‘agreement’ amongst the participants of last week’s ‘Beta’ Staff Ride to NOT openly discuss the ‘questions and answers’, as is being suggested by Bob Powers… then ( apparently ) the parents of deceased Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ( David and Shari Turbyfill ) didn’t ‘get that memo’.
———————————————–
Okay… now that that is taken care of…
Is there anything else you can tell us about these RULES you seem to know about that RTS (apparently) had to AGREE to last week?
There were no rules about not repeating what was said.
Mostly as you know and have known Mrs. Marsh and some of the Yarnell Overhead have been negative concerning IM and all involved with IM.
RTS because of his close Proximity to Yarnell and his instructor and Red card assignments has caught a lot of flack from those he knows and those he works with Including Marsh’s wife and her foundation.. Remember the discussion about the Arizona Academy and what happened to RTS?
Mostly I believe it was more about feeling and getting argumentative or pushing some agenda about the crew or Marsh. Nothing about not talking about the questions or answers.
You are still mixing words so A APOLAGY would be appropriate.
Otherwise you have fallen to the gutter like Gary. Attacks or statements that are not fact seem to be the norm on here. Admit you read into what I said and committed your own mistake.
I never said what you printed—- ” NOT to openly discuss the Questions and answers as is being suggested by Bob Powers”—- YOU PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.
If you do not know what an agreement is ( to be considerate of family members) then I feel sorry for you. That is easy to consider.
I would say again if you are not aware RTS was in a group of 3 or 4 Families I believe 10 people.
Remember this was a Family Staff Ride. They were broken into groups.
Not all in one big party. I do not know how many groups were divided up.
According to numbers or what ever or however he and Marcia ended up in what group.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 15, 2016 at 2:15 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Mostly as you know and have known Mrs. Marsh and
>> some of the Yarnell Overhead have been negative
>> concerning IM and all involved with IM.
And as Judge Markham told Mrs. Marsh flat-out, in an open courtroom,
that still doesn’t give HER ( or ANY of these people you are referring to ) the right to restrict freedom of speech and discuss a National, Historic tragedy.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> RTS because of his close Proximity to Yarnell and his
>> instructor and Red card assignments has caught a lot
>> of flack from those he knows and those he works with
>> Including Marsh’s wife and her foundation.. Remember
>> the discussion about the Arizona Academy and what
>> happened to RTS?
Thank you for just CONFIRMING that it was, in fact, RTS who was invited to be the ‘guest speaker’ at the AWIMA and who was subsequently asked to leave.
I think he was kidding himself to come on here and try and talk about himself in the THIRD PERSON like that… and not have the courage to admit he was really talking about HIMSELF. It became pretty obvious that he WAS just ‘pretending’ it was someone else… but he still never would admit it was really him.
So thanks for just CONFIRMING what was already suspected.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Mostly I believe it was more about feeling and getting
>> argumentative or pushing some agenda about the crew
>> or Marsh. Nothing about not talking about the
>> questions or answers.
You ‘believe’? As in… I’m still not sure?
Then what did this RTS guy even SAY to you about it?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Admit you read into what I said and committed your own mistake.
I corrected ONE WORD up above. I changed ‘reported’ to ‘suggested’… which is exactly what you did. In your zeal to defend your buddy you were trying to get US to ‘believe’ that maybe it was because of some RULES he was being asked to follow.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I never said what you printed—- ” NOT to openly
>> discuss the Questions and answers as is being
>> suggested by Bob Powers”—- YOU PUT WORDS
>> IN MY MOUTH.
Only after YOU were putting the IDEA into our ‘heads’ that that *might* have been the reason RTS was now refusing to discuss those ‘questions/answers’ he was privy to last week.
I changed ‘reported’ to ‘suggested’. That’s all I’m gonna do for ya.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If you do not know what an agreement is ( to be considerate
>> of family members) then I feel sorry for you.
Okay… let’s say I really AM a complete dolt.
Then please EXPLAIN to me ( us ) EXACTLY what you are trying to say or what you are pretending to KNOW.
What were these RULES that RTS supposedly AGREED to before embarking on last week’s Staff Ride.
Use small words, please. Remember… I am a complete dolt and I need these kinds of things explained to me very carefully.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I would say again if you are not aware RTS was in a
>> group of 3 or 4 Families I believe 10 people.
>> Remember this was a Family Staff Ride. They were
>> broken into groups. Not all in one big party. I do not
>> know how many groups were divided up. According
>> to numbers or what ever or however he and Marcia
>> ended up in what group.
There are just too many “I believes” and flat-out “I do not knows” in your entire response to really take any of it seriously.
Basically you really don’t know jack shit about what happened last week… regardless of you pretending you do.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> There were no rules about not repeating what was said.
Oh… so now you are SURE there weren’t?… even after first saying their MIGHT have been and trying to get us all to accept that as an ‘excuse’ for your buddy’s reticence?
Okay… whatever… none of this is ‘credible’.
I wish you would just back off and let RTS speak for himself.
He’s a big boy.
Do you actually have any comments about what the post above was REALLY about ( Bob Powers )… or are you just ‘stuck’ in this ‘tribal defense mode’ for one of your buddies who isn’t even bothered enough by any of this to come on here and clear things up for himself?
Followup…
We got a few ‘Replies’ deep here… so just to be clear…
The ‘post above’ I was asking you if you have any comments about is the discussion that is taking place over on Mr. Turbyfill’s site about what John Burfiend said (directly) to David and Shari Turbyfill on last week’s Staff Ride.
That is what the post was REALLY about… and not about what you may or may not have said because you may or may not really know anything at all about what happened on a ‘Staff Ride’.
Well I expected no more from you and I have called you what you are before so move on.
No I am not answering any more questions.
Your Tung and cheek about RTS is almost funny. There is not many that haven’t known his true name on here for some time, including you.
You protect your true name RTS has a right to the same.
My only comment is no one was told they could not comment about the Staff Ride. As you have shown wit the insert, RTS has shown, and Mr. Turbyfill has shown.
OH by the way for you and Gary who should know better.
I will never blame any one else other than Marsh and Steed
The Superintendent has the full responsibility for his crew bar none. Gary carried that load as have the rest of us,
That’s why they are GS 9’s with the rank come the full responsibility for their decisions.
No one in the history of HS crews Has ordered a Superintendent to do something unsafe and had them do it.
Ill take that back for 3 Fires Loop, South Canyon and Yarnell. accounting for 12,14,and 19 dead fire fighters or Hot Shots. Lessons learned or should have been learned..
Reply to Bob Powers post on
April 15, 2016 at 4:29 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> My only comment is no one was told they
>> could not comment about the Staff Ride.
Well… at this point… with all your previous “I believes’ and “maybes” and “It might have beens” on this particular subject… I don’t believe you really know enough about this to even NOW be saying ( for sure ) whether they were or were not.
You weren’t there.
All you know is what your buddy has been allowing you to know.
So let’s take a ‘step back’ and totally remove YOU as the ‘focus’ of this particular conversation ( because the original post wasn’t even intended to be about YOU at all ).
How’s this, then…
———————————————————
Well… if there was some kind of ‘agreement’ amongst the participants of last week’s ‘Beta’ Staff Ride to NOT openly discuss the ‘questions and answers’, then ( apparently ) the parents of deceased Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ( David and Shari Turbyfill ) didn’t ‘get that memo’.
———————————————————
See what happened there, Bob?
You’re not even mentioned anymore, but it still doesn’t change the lead-in to what the post was really about… which is what is now being said over at ‘Yarnell Fire Realities’ about last week’s Staff Ride.
So it’s not about YOU anymore ( at all ).
Happy now?
You’re a patient person WTKTT.
Well I did not see much on the Yarnell fire realities
and they are not talking about what others asked they are talking about what they asked and the answers they got.
And you really are the one that dose not know Jack Shit about what happened with out what I have given you or the Turbyfills.
But hay I am done giving information I have so you will have to find someone else to give you your little daily crumbs.
Down below ( in a Reply to something ‘gizmo’ said )…I wrote…
————————————————————————————————
It doesn’t matter if some attorneys who all work in the same building ( The Arizona Attorney General’s Office Building ) who were ‘assigned’ to represent either Arizona Forestry or ADOSH were able to walk across the hall to each other’s offices enough times and play enough “Let’s Make A Deal” and somehow tie the ADOSH findings into 12 other independent ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit settlements.
Despite what Arizona Forestry would LIKE to think… that didn’t make the actual ADOSH investigation and ‘findings’ simply ‘disappear’.
The findings of gross negligence in that WORKPLACE still exist… and are still as valid as when they were first documented by the investigators for ADOSH.
—————————————————————————————–
Speaking of “that didn’t make the actual ADOSH investigation and ‘findings’ simply ‘disappear'”…
That got me wondering about something… so I went and checked it out.
Surprising results.
In the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’, there are only TWO documents mentioned as ‘suggested reading material’ for anyone who might be participating in the Staff Ride.
1. The original Arizona Forestry contracted SAIR report document.
2. Author Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”.
The only ‘informational’ pages in the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’ are simply direct page-dumps ( word for word ) from the original SAIR document, complete with all the original errors and misinformation.
NOTE: The authors of this ‘Staff Ride’ document ( OMNA International ) have actually tried to ‘correct’ some of ‘time’ errors in the original SAIR document… but in most cases they only succeeded in making the ‘times’ they were trying to correct even MORE WRONG that they were in the original SAIR.
There is absolutely NO MENTION of either the ‘Arizona Department of Occupational Safety and Health’ ( ADOSH ) independent investigation documents OR of ADOSH’s own sub-contracted independent investigation document produced by the ‘Wildland Fire Associates’ ( WFA ) organization.
Brit Rosso and the USFS “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center” have been heavily involved in the development of this “Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride” since day one, when Arizona Forestry turned to USFS for ‘help’ in putting this ‘Staff Ride’ together as soon as the ink on the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits settlement was dry and it became a ‘requirement’.
But lo and behold… on the “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center” website dedicated to ‘Study materials for the Yarnell Hill Fire’… they have their own copies of ALL of the original ADOSH investigation and WFA report(s) sitting right there alongside the original SAIR.
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
“A lesson is learned when we change our behavior”
Incident – Yarnell Hill ( 2013 )
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=1a2dac92-1d79-420f-be0e-1aa616a40a70
ALL of the original Arizona Department of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) investigation documents are still sitting right there on the official USFS “Wildland Lessons Learned Center” page devoted to ‘study materials’ related to the Yarnell Hill Fire… including even the original ‘ADOSH Inspection Narrative for ASFD’ investigation report, the original ( separate ) “ADOSH Wildland Fire Associates Investigation Report”… and even the original ADOSH press release announcing the availability of the finished report.
So is this just another HUGE example of incompetence on display, and the “left hand” having no clue what the “right hand” is even doing?
Arizona Forestry, OMNA International, and Brit Rosso of the “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center” are trying to say ( in the official Yarnell Hill Staff Ride Guide ) that the ONLY ‘study’ materials relevant to the 2013 Yarnell Fire are the SAIR and Dickman’s book… even while the CURRENT, official “2013 Yarnell Hill Fire” ‘Study materials’ page at Brit Rosso’s “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center” still lists ALL of the ADOSH reports ( with direct links to the actual ADOSH documents ) as equally relevant ‘Study Material’?
Whoops!… Who didn’t get who’s MEMO there?
One of the ( many ) ‘revelations’ that came out of the ADOSH and WFA ‘investigations’ that, of course, was NEVER mentioned in the original SAIR was the tiny little detail that OPS2 Paul Musser, had, in fact, talked DIRECTLY to Eric Marsh at 3:42 PM that fateful afternoon and had supposed discussed Granite Mountain’s ‘availibility’ for coming down off the ridge and getting down to town ASAP.
There was absolutely NO MENTION of this in the original SAIR, despite Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and the other SAIT people having had complete access to Musser and a direct ‘interview’ with him.
It was only when the ADOSH report came out that we finally saw THIS…
On PDF page 18 of the ‘ADOSH Inspection Narrative’ document…
————————————————————————————————-
At approximately 1545 hours… Operations Section Chief 2 Paul Musser radioed GMIHC and asked if they could spare resources to assist in Yarnell. Either DIVSA Eric Marsh or GMIHC Captain Jesse Steed responded that they were committed to the black and that Musser should contact BRIHC working in the valley ( during his interview Musser stated that he wasn’t sure who he was talking with ).
————————————————————————————————-
NOTE: It has since been proven ( from reading Musser’s actual ADOSH interview transcript ) that there are 2 things wrong with that paragraph, as printed in the ADOSH report. Musser DID say he was SURE that he spoke with DIVSA Eric Marsh… ( and not Jesse Steed )… and Musser also insisted that he NEVER discussed being ‘in the black’ with him. Musser says he was only asking Marsh if Granite Mountain was still “committed to the ridge”. There was never any discussion about ‘the black’.
Regardless of these detail corrections… OPS2 Paul Musser WAS now freely admitting that he did have this DIRECT conversation with Eric Marsh. ADOSH was very close on the TIME. The actual time is more like 3 minutes earlier, circa 1542. That is when the Panebaker Air Study Video captures Paul Musser actually initiating that radio call directly to Marsh with the callout “Division Alpha, OPS2 Musser, on TAC 1”.
The ADOSH investigators never asked Paul Musser why there was absolutely no mention of this crucial radio call to Marsh in either the original SAIR or in the ‘notes’ of his interview with members of the SAIT.
It *could* be assumed that at the time of his SAIT interview… Paul Musser ( and perhaps even the SAIT ) was still unaware that his radio callout to Marsh had actually been captured in one of the Panebaker videos. Once that information became known, following the publishing of the SAIT and prior to his interview with ADOSH, Paul Musser might have decided he should ‘come clean’ and not try to deny having made that crucial radio call to Marsh.
OPS2 Paul Musser is being used as an SME ‘presenter’ for the new Yarnell Hill Staff Ride.
I was NOT on the ‘Staff Ride’ last week… but I would bet anyone a fin to a sawbuck that this 3:42 radio call from Musser out to DIVSA Eric Marsh was NEVER MENTIONED ( much less discussed ) during any ‘presentation’ at any of the ‘Stands’.
I agree WTKTT. I was surprised and disappointed to see the only reading recommended was Dickman’s book and the SAIR. In my mind I consider ADOSH as the reliable evidence in all of this because of the interview recordings and transcriptions. The SAIR ‘interview’ notes are so awful, and similar to what a child would write with a crayon and Dickman’s book is not a thoroughly researched piece. So I ask myself if it’s a safe assumption the designers of the staff ride chose with intent to not use any ADOSH product and why?? More manipulation to protect the IMT??? Or is like you said, who didn’t get whose memo here?
You really HAVE been ‘doing your homework’ on the Yarnell Hill Fire… haven’t you?
Most people don’t even know those sanitized crayon-scribble SAIT investigation interview notes even exist in the ‘public evidence record’… or that we are all supposed to believe ( when comparing them to their own final SAIR report and the information contained therein ) that they are the ONLY ‘notes’ that were taken during (supposedly) ALL of the in-person interviews conducted by Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, Randy Okon, and the rest of the SAIT cabal.
When compared to the ADOSH interviews with the same people… those SAIT crayon-notes are now famous not so much for the discrepancies in the testimony… but for what is NEVER MENTIONED AT ALL.
One thing we knew from the Kyle Dickman book was that it belonged on the fiction shelf along with the SAIR report–so that was an apt recommendation. One thing did make sense were the maximum fines given out for the horrible job done at tending the fire at Yarnell.
Reply to Charlie post on April 15, 2016 at 9:45 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> One thing we knew from the Kyle Dickman book was that it
>> belonged on the fiction shelf along with the SAIR report–so
>> that was an apt recommendation.
If you just want to know a little more about who the fellows were that were found dead on the floor of a blind-box canyon full of explosive fuel… then the Dickman book is for you.
If you want to know anything about what really happened that entire weekend in Yarnell ( from the start of the fire, through the tragedy, and beyond )… then don’t waste your money.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> One thing did make sense were the maximum fines given out
>> for the horrible job done at tending the fire at Yarnell.
But one of the ‘downsides’ to that was the moment ADOSH realized, even before finishing all their initial interviews, that the chaos and the negligence present ( and provable ) in that Arizona Forestry WORKPLACE was already ‘pegging the meter’ with regards to the m’maximum fines’ the were even allowed to impose…
…that actually caused an ‘early end’ to the investigation itself.
No… ADOSH was never supposed to figure out EVERYTHING that happened that entire weekend… or WHY it happened… but if they had simply continued their investigation for another few weeks and had been able to ‘call back’ some key witnesses… we would certainly know a LOT more about what really happened from the initial lightning strike, on through Russ Shumates botched Initial Attack, and then the discovery of 19 dead men on the floor of a blind box canyon.
Some of the ADOSH investigators WANTED to do these ‘call backs’ and then ask people that had already been interviewed some other direct, hard questions… now that they had completed a ‘first round’ and knew EXACTLY what to go back and ask certain ‘key players’… but it didn’t happen.
Once they hit the ‘maximum fines that can we could possibly impose’… that basically caused a ‘shutdown’ of their investigation.
And that is to be expected.
Once they knew they were already going to make History ( for their own organization ) and impose the maximum fines ever imposed… there really wasn’t much else they could do but “write it up and call it a day”.
But those ‘historic’ documents still exist.
They are even still sitting on Brit Rosso’s USFS “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned” center website on the page that documents the “2013 Yarnell Hill Fire”.
So maybe Arizona Forestry ‘lucked out’ of having to actually pay the historic FINES… but they can’t make the ADOSH investigation ‘go away’.
It will always be there… totally contradicting their own investigation.
Reply to gizmo post on April 14, 2016 at 11:10 am
>> gizmo said…
>>
>> WTKTT you asked me to explain this statement I made:
>> You also keep repeating this “You can have LCES and
>> 10&18 in place and still get killed” thing without answering
>> the question of WHEN, since those hard-wrought rules
>> were first put in place, has that EVER actually
>> happened? Name a fire.
>>
>> All fires.
>> Because fire isn’t static but dynamic and I know
>> you can understand that.
First and foremost… thanks for taking the time to reply.
Secondly… yes… I do understand that ‘fire isn’t static but dynamic’.
But ( as Gary Olson has pointed out many, many times )… fire can’t ‘think’.
Static OR Dynamic… it ( unlike humans ) MUST follow the rules of physics… so ( theoretically ) we always have the advantage.
If you ( not YOU specifically, but the generic YOU ) call yourself a professional ‘wildland fireghter’, then it stands to reason you are SUPPOSED to be an ‘expert’ in ( guess what? ) How ‘Fire’ behaves ( and CAN behave ) in the ‘Wildland’.
And that INCLUDES ‘extreme fire behavior’. ALL kinds.
If someone is letting you ( again, the generic YOU ) out on a Wildland Fireline and putting you in charge of others with regards to ‘hiking decisions’ anywhere close to any ‘dynamic fireline’… and you are NOT an ‘expert’ in what a ‘dynamic fire’ CAN ( potentially ) do or become… and in what timeframes… you really have no business being out there doing that.
And as one of the persons paying your salary… I ( me, personally ) do not WANT you ‘out there’ making those decisions unless you HAVE been sufficiently trained to keep the people who in are your charge ALIVE ‘out there’.
So what I am saying is that MOST of what you are saying now just comes down to ‘training’ issues.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> A person can have all those boxes checked and due
>> to a number of reasons like past experience, slides in
>> the brain that are not solidified but loose, or simply fire
>> behavior… they can still get in a close call/near miss
>> or get killed.
It sounds like you are trying to ‘defend’ someone ( anyone ) who might *think* they have ( in your words ) “all the boxes checked”… but they end up getting themselves and the people they are in charge of fried to a crisp, anyway.
You can’t just *think* you have your “boxes checked”… and then end up being so wrong that you kill yourself and others. That’s the mark of an ‘amateur’.
A PROFESSIONAL would never just be ‘thinking’… “I’m pretty sure I have my ‘boxes checked’… so let’s take a long walk in that unburned fuel. Everything SHOULD be ok ( I think )”. A PROFESSIONAL would make SURE that LCES and the 10&18 are being FULLY adhered to and would never just be ‘guessing’ about it.
Interesting phrase you use to describe this imaginary person who ‘has all his/her boxes checked’ but “can still get in a close call/near miss or get killed”.
Description: “slides in the brain that are not solidified but loose”.
That’s a great way to describe someone who…
“Thinks they know what they need to know but really doesn’t”.
Again… the mark of a true ‘amateur’ and not a PROFESSIONAL.
>> gizmo also says…
>>
>> If a firefighter believes they can get from point a to
>> point b in a certain time period and they refer to their
>> ‘slides’ in their memory and then that doesn’t
>> match up to reality, that’s when bad things can happen.
Yep. And that is called “TOTAL FAIL”.
You have FAILED to have the right situational awareness and/or experience to make the decisions you are making.
Could be bad training, could be just total hubris… or you might just be a plain old vanilla idiot who is being allowed ( by other idiots ) to make important decisions.
The ‘bad training’ part is easily fixable. The other stuff… harder.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Why do you think more and more firefighters are quoted
>> saying ‘I’ve never seen a fire do that’ or ‘I didn’t know fire
>> could do that’…the past experiences don’t match to current
>> or expected fire behavior and it’s impossible for them
>> to understand fires full capabilities.
Are you even listening to yourself?
You are basically describing ( and trying to DEFEND? ) “Fuck Ups”.
I’ve you are such an amateur that it is “impossible for you to understand fires full capabilities”… then who signed your ‘Red Card’ and what the fuck are you doing out there “playing fireman”?
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> And as much as I do dislike saying this, the prior bad
>> decisions with good outcomes falls into this same line
>> of thinking. If somebody gets away with a behavior and
>> they refer to that slide when making a decision, that can
>> lead to bad things as well.
>>
>> So if a firefighter has the boxes checked and they refer
>> back to that ‘one time they did that and it worked’, right
>> or wrong, if it doesn’t match to the dynamic
>> fire environment then they’re screwed.
Total agreement on this one ( and if RTS is still reading I’m sure he’s smiling ).
Yes. There IS ( and has ALWAYS been ) evidence that Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and the rest of Granite Mountain were used to ‘pushing the envelope’… and others have said they KNEW that Granite Mountain was simply ‘an accident waiting to happen’.
There have been long discussions about this on this very forum.
And this is not ‘bashing’. If the stories are all true… then it is a FACT that there was this organization running around out there accepting fire assignments and a LOT of people KNEW they were just “an accident waiting to happen”… but there weren’t sufficient ‘peer review’ mechanisms or channels in the WFF industry to PREVENT that ‘accident’ from happening. There SHOULD have been.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> I am NOT saying the 10&18/LCES/Common Denominators
>> are to be ignored but merely recognized by firefighters that
>> adaptability and updating to them needs to happen.
I’m not 100 percent what you meant by that… but if your reference to ‘updating’ means ‘continuously reevaluating as conditions change’… then YES… that is ALREADY ( supposed ) to be totally 100 percent obvious to anyone who was ever taught anything about LCES and the 10&18.
Just one example…
From the Firewise Online Learning Center…
Firefighter Safety in the WUI
http://learningcenter.firewise.org/Firefighter-Safety/3-4.php
———————————————————————
Recipe for Survival: L+C+E+S
LCES is a safety planning concept that should be part of any fire action plan. It focuses attention on the following four considerations for safer operations:
L = Lookout
C = Communications
E = Escape Route
S = Safety Zone
The LCES system enhances and focuses the Ten Standard Fire Orders, the 18 Situations That Shout Watch Out, and other safety aids for wildland firefighters. Structural firefighters operating at wildland/urban interface fires must be aware of the same concepts.
In order for LCES to be useful enough to be efficient and flexible enough to be effective, the concept is built on two basic guidelines:”
1. Before safety is threatened, each firefighters must know the LCES system will be used.
2. LCES must be continuously reevaluated as fire conditions change.
——————————————————————
Key point: “LCES must be continuously reevaluated as fire conditions change”.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Complex transition fires are the norm and this is when
>> firefighters are the most vulnerable and reference to
>> past experiences is not equal to all.
All the more reason to be SUPER-VIGILANT ( at times like that ) regarding your own safety and those who you are charged with ‘bringing home safely’.
If your ‘slides’ or ‘references to past experience’ aren’t good enough for the situation you find yourself in… the worst thing you can do is then PRETEND you are some fucking “know it all” or to then “think” you “have all your boxes checked”.
Hubris kills. It’s been documented already. Read the history of past fatality fires.
>> gizom also said…
>>
>> Also, my use of the word old school is because I’m old
>> school, I’m just old. To imply old school and hillbilly are
>> the same is ludicrous and doesn’t mean that I am the
>> same as Brendan.
Well… now that you have typed some more… I can see that you DO understand that the 10&18 and LCES aren’t just a bumper sticker that you can chose to ignore.
This ‘forum’ format is an imperfect medium… and sometimes it takes a lot of back-and-forth just to even be SURE what someone actually meant by something they typed. It happens a lot around here.
I think I really DO ‘understand’ the ‘point’ you have been trying to make with your original “Doesn’t anyone realize you can have all your boxes checked and still get killed?” statement.
You are basically trying to say that “You can *think* you have all your shit together, and you can *think* you have imagined all the shit that can happen… but sometimes ever greater shit happens than all the shit you were even capable of thinking of”.
Well… that still sounds to me like an ‘amateurish’ thinking.
If you are in a WORKPLACE situation… and you are in charge of other people’s LIVES… and you are the one who has ‘Red Cards’ in your pocket that says you are SUPPOSED to be able to imagine ‘all the shit that could happen’, but lots of your workers DIE because you either didn’t ‘imagine all the shit that could happen which others were capable of doing’… OR… you get people killed because some shit happened that ANYONE who calls themselves a ‘supervisor’ SHOULD have been able to ‘imagine’…
…the LEGAL SYSTEM has a word for that.
It’s called NEGLIGENCE.
Sometimes… it’s called “GROSS NEGLIGENCE”
And sometimes it’s even called “GROSS NEGLIGENCE WITH DEPRAVED INDIFFERENCE”.
The latter being… you really DID know you were about to subject people in your charge to a situation that *could* easily result in injury or death… but you did it anyway.
And all the evidence we have so far with regards to what happened in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013, points to that ‘latter’ defintion of what took place.
Even ADOSH found that to be the case. They determined that WORKPLACE was absolutely FULL of “Gross Negligence”… and they levied Historic fines and penalties.
As MUCH as they were allowed to… according to Arizona State law.
It doesn’t matter if some attorneys who all work in the same building ( The Arizona Attorney General’s Office Building ) who were ‘assigned’ to represent either Arizona Forestry or ADOSH were able to walk across the hall to each other’s offices enough times and play enough “Let’s Make A Deal” and somehow tie the ADOSH findings into 12 other independent ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit settlements.
Despite what Arizona Forestry would LIKE to thing… that didn’t make the actual ADOSH investigation and ‘findings’ simply ‘disappear’.
The findings of gross negligence in that WORKPLACE still exist… and are still as valid as when they were first documented by the investigators for ADOSH.
Checking all the boxes–and one box the GMHS did not check was the box canyon they got boxed in with.
True what Gizmo says, you can check all the boxes–GMHS leaders checked none. I once had three rungs on a wooden mine ladder taken out with a boulder that fell from the back in a turquoise mine I was working. It fit perfectly between the ladder and stopped one rung above my head. I had a five gallon bucket full of turquoise in one hand and Don Gifford was about two rungs below me and we were up about twenty feet up the ladder. If that one had landed on my hard hat I wouldn’t have been here to read WTKTT’s good advice some 40 years later. That was the same mine that killed a little girl who got too close and fell down the 80 ft. shaft. Some things are mean–fire fighting in the wild lands I see as one of those jobs that certainly needs leaders that have the foresight to look at safety measures and the gross negligent part about the child that died–Cora Simonton who had interest in the mine should never have allowed a child to get anywhere near that old mine–a good example of gross negligence, although she was never charged. She knew nothing of keeping safe around mines, yet my Dad had me in mines at 9 years of age. I was never hurt in any way because he knew all the intricacies of keeping things barred down and protecting us from harm was his main concern before any mucking out or setting charges. By the time I was 12 we had both entered mines hundreds of times and never once were either of us injured–though I believe he died partially due to dust affecting his lungs and cancer from a piece of brown uranium he carried about the size of a walnut that he calibrated his Geiger counter with. Prostate cancer and that piece he thought was a good luck charm since he had found it in the Burro Mountains near Silver City, NM in a secluded area. He never found the deposit, and that thing looked more like a meteorite of brown iron oxide than a piece of uranium. So there was one hidden box (at least to Dad) that he did not check. Hell to be a mud in the trench machine gunner in WW1 then come home and eventually be killed by a small rock–though that took some years, but so did his dying. Cancer can be a miserable way to die–and it was not a pretty sight to see him go that way.
That is why I look at the retardant aspect. We have had too many deaths here for such a small population–84 and counting since the debacle of 6-31-13. Both Joy and I have suffered lung problems and I dare say she now needs oxygen. I have never seen her this way and sometimes she is gasping for air to the point it scares me. I believe those 230 thousand gallons of retardant that had been dumped next our Glen Isla and Yarnell with their secret ingredients of 8-16% have compromised the health of people here–especially the elderly who are already compromised. There is no question the bell curve is skewed drastically when 84 decease out of 650 people in this short time of 3 years. Norb will tell you I was greatly depleted when we hiked–even having to rest when I am used to going on. But the mining jobs I have had already had me some reduced in lung power, but since I got good doses of the lung killing ammonia gas that comes off the retardant, I started bad heart problems–first an attack in Montana a few months after the fire, then again when I returned to Yarnell. Like my Dad saw his uranium sample, I saw that retardant as inert. But since I have done enough research to know it has never had long term studies on human health. I have learned that ammonia gas kills lung cells that do not rejuvenate. I now know it has killed thousands of fish when accidentally dropped into rivers, and that the Israeli companies that now make this shit hide chemical additives from us under trade secret laws so we who have breathed this crap know not what we have in our systems.
I think the FS thinks like my doctor. When I took a medication and fell sick the doctor said well you have to suffer so weight the benefits against the hazards of the medicine. Well if the benefits of the retardant did not do worth a shit saving Yarnell at the expense of peoples health it looks like the hazards weigh the heaviest. But you wild land fighters don’t mind a little loss of lung tissue–you can stand to donate a lung without too much effect–but damn wouldn’t it be nice to know what else you are breathing beside the smoke of the fire?
So there are many boxes that need checking. LCES apply to mining alike the wild land fire fighting job. At least we should start there.
WTKTT said “And as one of the persons paying your salary… I ( me, personally ) do not WANT you ‘out there’ making those decisions unless you HAVE been sufficiently trained to keep the people who in are your charge ALIVE ‘out there’.
So what I am saying is that MOST of what you are saying now just comes down to ‘training’ issues.”
What is sufficient training? S courses? L courses? M courses? Online courses? Position Task Books? A taxpayer would believe that training is the end all be all but you would be surprised in the lack of updating, accountability, agency discrepancies, and real time/mock training. For a non fire person to believe that training alone is sufficient in keeping people alive is a fool and misinformed on what wild land fire training actually is. Ultimately experience is training, on the job training season after season after season and throw in some structures, the extreme fire behavior that is the new norm, complex transition fires, and interagency responses things become more difficult and class room/book training just doesn’t cut it.
“A PROFESSIONAL would never just be ‘thinking’… “I’m pretty sure I have my ‘boxes checked’… so let’s take a long walk in that unburned fuel. Everything SHOULD be ok ( I think )”. A PROFESSIONAL would make SURE that LCES and the 10&18 are being FULLY adhered to and would never just be ‘guessing’ about it.”
What’s a professional to you? All levels of management have gotten killed or do you believe because a person was trained in a classroom that makes them a professional? I was not implying any one should be guessing about anything having to do with 10&18/LCES but meaning they are constantly updating those checked boxes as the seconds tick, rechecking and rechecking. I don’t believe it’s as easy as you may believe it is, that a trained firefighter is a professional.
“Are you even listening to yourself?
You are basically describing ( and trying to DEFEND? ) “F*#k Ups”.
I’ve you are such an amateur that it is “impossible for you to understand fires full capabilities”… then who signed your ‘Red Card’ and what the fuck are you doing out there “playing fireman”?”
Your arrogance almost makes me go off the rails like Gary but I attribute it back to you having never been on a fire before right? Maintaining an arrogant attitude for you is a safe place and I was listening to myself and you don’t get it. Look at Cordes saying the fire outperformed our expectations (paraphrase), what sort of amateur or professional do you think he is? He was in fire for how long? 20 something years maybe? Firefighters from 1 year experience to 20 some years experience say the same thing these days about fire behavior surprising them, relating it back to drought, fuel loading, structures, leadership, training, and a lack of past experiences that match the current environment(I am sure I missed an element here).
And your cutting and pasting of LCES, well I am sort of taken aback again, by your arrogance and I really do not need you educating me about this or directing me to read about fire fatalities. Consider who you might be talking to when you type–do you even listen to yourself?
A few days ago I said, “So…anyway, since my old associate RTS was an ex-hippie or maybe a current hippie…who knows? I thought he would be a good choice to replace me as a family support person and attend this staff ride for the specific purpose of first and foremost being a good support person, you know in touch with his feelings and sensitive, but secondly to ask specific questions and make specific observations and bring those back to this thread.
RTS was even given a long and specific list of very good questions from WTKTT that he was supposed to ask. And since his return to this thread after using my ticket to the party, getting him to even admit he went to the staff ride has been like pulling teeth and getting any information that will help us determine why the crew has proven to be the impossible dream. And by the way, I was repeatedly admonished NOT to send RTS in my place because the general feeling was that he could not be trusted, but I said, no…I think he will do a good job.
So…I am a little pissed off at RTS. As a result I have been thinking about his entire contribution to this thread from day one and I have concluded that his entire effort has been spent doing nothing else but vilifying Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed while doing everything he can to exonerate and prove that none of his Battalion Chief Fuck Buddies did anything wrong. Yes…we get that part and have for some time now.
But…RTS has shown absolutely no interest whatsoever in ascertaining what other causal reasons existed that played some part in the deaths of the crew. I am afraid that the old hippie rebel from yesteryear has turned into a water carrying company man who can’t be trusted, period…end of story.”
I have been looking back through some really old posts because I am interested in a couple of specific areas. And I found this one;
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/#comment-5033
in which RTS said this way back on December 5, 2013;
“WTKTT,
The way I read the AZ OSHA report is that OPS Musser did NOT ask GM HS to DO anything. He was merely inquiring of Marsh and/or GM HS “if they COULD assist at Yarnell.” So, he did NOT “ask them to leave there.” Therefore, this was NOT a direct request nor was it an order or any direction to go there, but merely seeking information from them to see IF they were able to. The report stated that “either Marsh or GMHS Captain Steed replied that they could not,” so they deferred and suggested contacting BR HS. Which makes sense because that was the Division BR HS was already working in.”
So…I am not going to annoy you by re posting everything RTS has ever said in defense of his Battalion Chief Buddies (although yes, I realize Paul Musser is NOT a Battalion Chief) who apparently made up MOST of the Yarnell Hill Fire overhead team, but I did want to post the first one I happened to see. And of course given the long history here on this thread I am reading these posts much differently now that I know exactly who RTS is and WHAT he does for a living now. He caters to and ingratiates himself with BATTALION CHIEFS.
So I am going to double down as they say and repeat once again, “But…RTS has shown absolutely no interest whatsoever in ascertaining what other causal reasons existed that played some part in the deaths of the crew. I am afraid that the old hippie rebel from yesteryear has turned into a water carrying company man who can’t be trusted, period…end of story.”
Oh…and one more thing Way back then not only didn’t I know who RTS is, I didn’t know he was friends with Willis, had the exact same philosophy that the crew was simply called home by God and therefore there wasn’t a reason to go looking any further than that particular explanation.
Nor did I even know what a BATTALION CHIEF is (I learned that only a few weeks ago) or that both Able Cordes were BATTALION CHIEFS, or that RTS is now making his living (other than his meager pension) training BATTALION CHIEFS or going out on fires with them which Bob finds so damn impressive but I don’t. I think the next generation sound have the same opportunity RTS, Bob and I all had without over-hill-has-beens clogging up the system and giving each other the plum assignments because they did not plan well for retirement oar they are bored…or both..
Well Gary here we are back at the assertions and name calling.
You have totally gone off the tracks and I have had enough.
This place has turned into Gary’s personal I am the greatest kingdom.
Please excuse me while I go barf.
Your attacks have gone beyond reality are you off your meds again?
Any way my best option is to Back off and leave this ridiculous unproductive
discussion as it has turned into the its all me Gary Olsen.
This thread will never change any thing that the FS, BLM and other agencies do
that is a day dream, and you all should know it.
It is absolutely no ‘secret’ ( at this point ) that no matter what evidence continues to surface about how things really went down that day… that RTS will NEVER be willing to assign any ‘responsibility’ to anyone but Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.
He absolutely approaches this whole thing from the viewpoint of “God gives us all choices and then sits back with the cheese dip and Doritos and can’t wait to see what happens”.
NOTE: Yea… I know… ‘cheese dip’ AND ‘Doritos’? Together? But he/she is. after all, God, right? No cholesterol issues to worry about.
RTS believes Marsh and Steed were given ‘choices’ by the Almighty One… and they fucked up.
He’s also absolutely sure that it had been coming for a long, long time.
He can correct me if I’m wrong… but I think he’s made it clear that is ‘where he is ( and has been ) coming from’ with all this for a very long time.
He has written a PAPER on this… and he’s actually out there ‘presenting’ it to anyone who will listen. I don’t think he has the “God just gives us all choices and Eric and Jesse blew it” stuff in the academic paper… but his ‘presentation’ undoubtedly focuses on the “Bad decisions with good outcomes” stuff.
But he is also on record as saying that the original SAIR document represents “The greatest whitewash and coverup in the history of Wildland Fire fatality investigations”.
I ( me, personally ) do not KNOW if he is ‘actively’ trying to ‘defend’ any of the ‘management’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire… but it’s simply a fact that he is never going to believe that what happened in Yarnell was anyone’s ‘fault’ other than the men who were out on the ridge and decided to drop into the canyon.
RTS has studied this fire ( and the evidence ).
RTS knows a LOT about what happened that day.
RTS has contributed a lot to this discussion.
But there is no question that he has an ‘agenda’.
Something along the lines of wanting to still find out as much as he can and be able to give ‘presentations’ about it ( for pay? ) while still not losing his opportunities to ‘double dip’ out of retirement and keep those temp assignment paychecks flowing.
He’s an odd duck, all things considered.
At the same time I absolutely share some of his opinions about what happened that weekend in Yarnell… I also don’t fully understand the ‘deepthroat’ act.
All that being said… I still think he was a GOOD choice to accompany Marcia, after she reached out for help. He was there, he was available, and he knows a LOT about what happened that day.
And it’s a given now that the whole question/answer thing out on that Staff Ride was basically a joke. David Turbyfill himself ( who was also on that Staff Ride last Tuesday ) has already confirmed that any ‘questions’ the SMEs were getting that weren’t of the simplest kind, or didn’t have a psuedo-answer already sitting somewhere in the SAIR document were answered with simply…
“I don’t know”.
Yes, and I have conceded many of RTS’S points many times pertaining to the roles that both Marsh and Steed played in this horrible tragedy.
It just took me awhile to figure out that he is never going to be willing to assign any of the blame to anyone other than Marsh and Steed no matter what we uncover. Or what he has ALREADY uncovered because I have always been a slow learner, but I am there now. And I am now trying to make up for lost time by calling them like I see them.
Reply to Gary Olson post on April 14, 2016 at 8:18 pm
>> Gay Olson said…
>>
>> Yes, and I have conceded many of RTS’S points many
>> times pertaining to the roles that both Marsh and
>> Steed played in this horrible tragedy.
Likewise. The whole theory of “Bad decisions with good outcomes”… and “we all knew they ( Granite Mountain ) were an accident waiting to happen” is, most likely, totally TRUE.
But we still don’t know where a lot of the ‘proof’ that RTS thinks he has enough of to actually write a paper about ( and be out there presenting it ) is really coming from.
Maybe he actually DOES ‘say so’ in the presentation itself. Dunno.
But whereas I am still ALWAYS ready to just ‘go where the evidence leads’… RTS seems to have decided a long time ago that the ONLY place any evidence ever CAN ‘lead’ is right back to the ridge of the Weaver Mountains… and two men making very bad decisions.
It’s an ‘odd restriction’ to observe coming from someone who is, otherwise, a pretty smart cookie.
Yes… it will ALWAYS be true that the ‘buck stopped out there’… but there really is so much more to ‘the story’ than just that.
I hope RTS continues to contribute to this ongoing discussion.
SIDENOTE: We also don’t need any kind of ‘report’ from RTS now to know what the (supposedly) ‘unscripted’ SMEs were all saying out there on that Staff Ride. Mr. David Turbyfill himself has basically confirmed that it’s all just ‘SAIR talk’… as we suspected it would be.
Once again… from just 16 hours ago… on Mr. Turbyfill’s own PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Fire Realities’ Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/photos/a.1425473211024464.1073741827.1425471334357985/1704578489780600/?type=3&theater
————————————————————————
David Turbyfill ( father of deceased GM Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ).
Last week I went on the Staff Ride for the Yarnell Hill Fire, as a Family member, I was more than disappointed. I observed that the ICMT from both Saturday and Sunday believe in this fairy tale that “They” made no decisions that they wouldn’t do again. They are in lock step that GMIHC made the critical Misjudgment to “Move” from the Lunch Spot, as well was not properly trained on “Emergency Radio Traffic” protocols.
————————————————————————
David Turbyfill, while obviously in attendance at last week’s Staff Ride and now confirming that the SMEs are still just slinging the usual bullshit… was NOT actually involved in the ‘settlement agreement’ between Arizona Forestry and the 12 family members all represented in their own ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits by Prescott Attorney Patrick McGroder.
So I DO still wonder what any of THOSE ‘family members’ had to say, after all they have been through and graciously agreeing to ‘settle’ their likely-to-win lawsuits in exchange for ‘changes’ in the way things are done… feel themselves now about discovering that the court-mandated ‘Staff Ride’ is just more hot, runny bullshit?
The ‘Staff Ride’ is basically a ‘joke’.
That’s no secret anymore.
What we still need to learn more about is this OTHER, even more important Court-Mandated ‘Day of questions and answers’ that was part of the same settlement agreement.
THAT is the ‘sit down’ ( with lawyers all present ) that was supposed to be where the “rubber really meets the road” and the place where Arizona Forestry was SUPPOSED to “come clean” and reveal ALL the evidence in their possession.
Yes, I greatly appreciated Mr. Turbyfill’s comments on this site. I learned a great deal from his comments and I know we can trust them, so in the end an assessment from RTS is no longer needed…or wanted in my case.
How can it be bad decisions with 19 dead then called a good outcome. You have me on that statement–not possible. First off we need to know how Marsh and Steed were groomed to make such bad decisions to defend the structures.
Every wild land fire fighter that hiked with us looked off in that basin and all came to the good decision–they would never allow themselves or their men to drop off in that trap. None of those men — mostly retired had lost a man on their watch. In fact I happen to know Ted Putnam saved a few by refusing to allow them to do the GMHS thing–drop off in a canyon toward a raging fire. So we see good decisions make good outcomes
There were many bad decisions that day of 6-31-13. The bad outcomes were including the deaths of 19, half the town burned, dead people in Yarnell as an aftermath, millions in tax payer dollars and displaced, disgruntled people as a result. Where the hell are you going to tell me there was any good outcome when the truth is hidden so errors can be corrected and bad decision people quit playing the hero category.
I did have John and Chuck of the local Yarnell fire department visit me today. I was burning some brush and it smoked enough to bring them around–Joy usually calls in but did not this morning. You need a permit I find to burn a little brush. The fellows were nice and told me they had not worked on the fire. I asked them if they knew why Yarnell Fire Department did not make a quick response to the lightening strike and they said they did not know or at least would not comment if they knew. They did tell me Chief Ben Palm was on the fire and might know, but I won’t hold my breath for his response.
They do have a very nice looking 4×4 pumper truck with a wench on it and I was glad to see now they have more than just a Humvee. They assured me they would get on a lightening strike and that Captain John and Chuck look healthy enough to do the job. That is where honesty changes things. The fuck ups that did not take care of the lightening strike are as I understand mostly gone if not all.
Where before the Chief neglected to do defensible space around Yarnell, the new crew are doing it. They told me they would do space in Yarnell for people that need it. Well early on we had hired by chance the Prison Crew and they did a good job–but it is good to know that they are helping people here to get ready for another burn if it happens–a good possibility.
So any local needing defensible space done can call the Yarnell Fire Department and get help.
correction–had never lost a man should be inserted for people we hiked with.
sorry again so errors can not be corrected if the dodge the truth boys don’t come clean.
Correction – Of course I don’t know what is motivating RTS, I know his retirement is not meager, it is far more than most Americans will ever have the opportunity to earn, once businesses started killing off conventional retirement plans. So…it is unfair of me to say it is about money.
I’m sure that without Fire supplemental income it would be harder to buy toys or burn up a lot of ammo as Bob has bragged about. I for one would rather see that money go to bread winners so they can feed their families.
But that is just me in my old timers progressive leaning fantasy world. On the other hand, I actually enjoy being an old timer and I feel like I have earned that title just as I earned the title ground pounder. It’s really all about perception. I like who I am and what I have become…liberated.
It very well may be about status and remaining relevant. I get that, I really do. That has been one thing that has been hard about retirement for me (which yes, I have commented on before) once someone asks you what you do…and you say, “I;m retired” you do become irrelevant to the point of almost being invisible. But…as they say, that is a good problem to have.
I just don’t want to be relevant enough to put someone’s life in my hands if they are depending on me to be hitting on all of my cylinders in cognitive skills and reaction times. I don’t need that on my conscience if things to to hell in a hand basket.
Gary, is a water carrier a company man? Once when I was about 19 years of age I would run ahead of a grader cleaning off blue top leveling stakes so the grader could keep a level grade on those long stretches of I-10 west of Lordsburg. We had water carriers–but I was not sure they were company men. But I do get the point–it would be hard to go against the grain if you were one of the former bosses and got into the huddle. Then is this a football type water carrier–not about to questions the decisions made? I did not see RTS in that light, but I look at it as he could never snitch if he went in strong. The snitch has to play the undercover game–act like one to get the goods on ’em.
Where am I missing out on this one. A proper thing would have been to ask Dr. Ted Putnam to go along. He is polite and coy enough to go along and ask the questions without people realizing that he is getting at the truth–then later he doesn’t mind sticking the truth to them. The ideal thing would have been for you, WTKTT, Bob, Ted, Norb, and Joy to join in the thing. Joy especially can ask pointed questions and has no fear of offending the cadre as do either of you and she wanted to go to get some answers.
So we all shift gears and now go forward-some was gained by RTS being there–we got a good report from David Turbyfill–the thing was a set up to keep the good old boys looking good in the public temporarily jaundiced eye.
A water carrying company man is just an old saying I have heard throughout my life and it refers to someone who will do the bidding of his bosses and follow his companies policies without question. I was a water carrying company man until I found out the hard way that there really in no loyalty with most managers when it comes to their bottom line and then I started changing into who I am today.
This is complicated and full of nuances and I’m not sure I can explain my feelings about RTS…but I will try. I don’t think he is a company man in the strictest sense of the term. He doesn’t even work for the company any more, therefore, I don’t think he is a company man in terms of the U.S. Forest Service as a whole, or the wildfire community as a whole, I don’t think he supports the SAIT or the SAIR or “them” as a monolith.
But then again, the wildfire fighting community is not a homogeneous monolithic group. It is actually a very fractured entity with many subsets, tribes, cliques, groups…whatever. The groups used to be strictly formed along agency lines, USFS, NPS, USFWS,BLM,BIA, state agencies and then down to the county and even city level. But those lines have mostly been erased because of ICS. I think if anything, those lines are now based on regions as a practical matter, those in the southwest primarily know, interact with, and work with others from the southwest. I also think they are now more than ever dependent upon the organizational structure and makeup of fire teams. which are based on regional boundaries once again as a practical matter.
If someone wants to be part of the team or club of wildland firefighters in the southwest, which I presume RTS does because it provides status, relevancy, extra income, relief from retirement boredom, and the common human need to belong to a tribe of like minded people, they need to follow the social mores (gee I knew my minor in Sociology would come in handy some day) otherwise known as the customs, values and behaviors of that group.
And once again in my day your loyalties were with your District, Forest, Region and Agency in that order but that has now all changed making those boundaries now obsolete. I am still trying to figure out this brave new world that appears to be dominated by an animal called the Battalion Chief who the Woodsman explained to us downstream.
But…where I think “we” are at now, or in other words where RTS is most likely at now is doing whatever is necessary to be part of, and remain part of, something called the Central Arizona Response Team,
http://www.cawrt.webs.com/
So…I think if you were to analyze (pending his arrival back on this thread to set us straight) what makes RTS tick and where his loyalties lie and who his tribe is, you would look at CART. But then again…I am NOT licensed therapist.
That is one reason I occupy a unique position. I have insider knowledge but I am not part of any wildland firefighting tribe and I haven’t been for decades but my knowledge is not decades out of date because I remained somewhat involved simply because I worked for a land management agency and had a deep personal interest in all things pertaining to wildland firefighting.
Oh…and one more thing. Our good friend Bob is obviously frozen in time somewhere back in the distant past (late 1960’s?) as part of the Oak Grove Hotshots tribe. Which I find very interesting because he was only an Oak Grove Hotshot for 2.5 years according to his recent post and the Oak Grove Hotshots haven’t existed now for several decades. And he doesn’t even remember RTS from the single season he apparently worked on the Oak Grove Hotshots.
In the 10 years I was a hotshot I probably worked with more than 100 crew members on those ten different crews. I remember most of them, but certainly not all. There has alwasy been a high turnover rate on all hotshot crews, even if it was steady work with good benefits…nobody in their right mind does it longer than they need to to get to where they want to be.
That’s one reason I know I am a little off in the head. I actually did leave, I had a relatively high paying full time job (we were being paid more than the state police) with good benefits as a Coconino County Deputy Sheriff out of Flagstaff and I quit that job after one year to go back to the crew. And then I never tried to leave again until it was too late and the job left me.
But..different strokes for different folks. And no, when it comes to finding out the truth about the Yarnell Hill Fire…I only have one loyalty and that is finding out the truth about the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And the reason we were being paid more than the state police and we had a good dental plan was that everyone who was a commissioned officer for that department had to have a four year college degree. So I guess Bob could never have gotten a job there.
And we didn’t have any part time deputy’s, we had reserve officers (I was one for 2 years) but they didn’t get paid unless you were guarding a prisoner in the hospital or a NAU basketball or football game but that didn’t come from the county.
We all usually go with what we know, and that is why I want the police who come when I call HELP to be well paid, full time officers with good benefits who are HAPPY to be doing their jobs…professionally. No old guys who are working for toys and because they get to burn up free ammmo.
And just in case I didn’t make myself clear in my post up above where I was trying to explain how the battle lines are probably drawn in this new ICS world we live in, I think RTS or Fred when he is not in the deep throat mood is going to do whatever he needs to do to remain part of his CART tribe. And that means he has to stay tight with people like WILLIS, ABEL, MUSSER and CORDES.
Those men could make sure Mr. RTS NEVER goes out on another fire as an AD, casual, pick up firefighter for the rest of his life without even saying a word. RTS would be blackballed so fast it would make his head spin and then POOF…there goes his supplemental retirement plan and his self identity in one fell swoop..
OK…just one more fine point. I was the Happy Jack Hotshot Crew Boss when I left the crew to go pursue my goal of being a law enforcement officer and my mentor who was the District FMO kept the crew going with acting crew bosses hoping I would change my mind and wanted my old job back…which I did.
And so I walked back through the door as the Happy Jack Hotshot Crew Boss. There are some loyalties in the U.S. Forest Service (I never found ANY in my 18 years with the BLM) but those were only in FIRE based on my experience.
Whoops, I shouldn’t have said acting crew BOSSES, I should have said acting crew BOSS. That was the same man who was my assistant for the entire seven years I was a hotshot crew boss because he was one of five who even helped me start the Santa Fe Hotshots.
And he then became the Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Boss when I finally had to leave. So…the point is, there was always continuity with the Happy Jack Hotshots and things were still run like I was actually there…more or less.
Double Whoops. I just realized I never answered your question about why I didn’t ask Dr. Ted Putnam to be the family support person instead of RTS.
And the answer of why I didn’t think of that is very simple. During the several months I was working with Dr. Putnam on the history of the Battlement Creek Fire, he told me he was not following this thread and was not particularly interested in the Yarnell Hill Fire at this time.
That is why I was surprised (and very happy) myself that JD actually got him for such an extensive interview for his last article.
Dr. Putnam told me that there are so many people looking at the Yarnell Hill Fire at this time, his efforts in this area are not needed…at least right now.
As has been stated here on this thread, he is busy working on some new angles and previously unreported information pertaining to the Mann Gulch Fire. And Dr. Putnam is afraid that if he doesn’t do that now, it will all be lost to history because that fire happened so long ago.
I don’t believe Dr. Putnam has ruled out working on the Yarnell Hill Fire in the future and he knows how important it is, but just not right now because of his time constraints.
Thanks Gary for all the explanation of the RTS situation–I can understand that considering the constraints of the cadre and you were a bit lighter on him and gave us good reason to understand his reluctance to share or do to much confrontational questioning.
Also that is very true what you said of Ted–he has said the same things to me but we can’t rule him out on Yarnell–in fact after all the honchos, including the sheriff dept., FS, Willis, et al refused to hike him we did and he has made more than one hike to check out why those men died. I am certain he will weigh in heavily at some point since he like you has outside sources from knowledgeable people that were on the fire.
This is certainly not about personalities but instead seeking out facts and not being bashful to get them. People that keep wanting to wash this thing clean or sweep it under the rug are doing a disservice to the future live of fire fighters. I see Gary, WTLTT. Bob and others contributing toward finding the truth in their bold manner as the only way we will finally get what is known but hidden out there.
I am one to believe it will take that to make these politicians come forward toward getting more money for training, more for the wild land fire fighting community that seems to be lacking in many areas. Low pay for the grunt is one obvious factor–especially with poorly trained and knowledgeable bosses. Damn it is a risky proposition being a wild land fire fighter with the training they now express–at least at the GMHS level. Gary and Bob can address that as well as Dr. Ted Putnam on other crews, but I suspect that as Ted says training has never been a priority with FS people.
If the public is shown how poorly this thing was managed instead of the snow job we see at Yarnell then they will scream to get money out to train these men. They hate to see young men die needlessly, their homes burned, and millions squandered that should be used so those millions are not squandered. Thanks Gary and others to let us know what thing are in dire need of change and the courage to demand truth and expose error so the public realizes that changes need to be demanded–
A little while back some of us were having a discussion on the disconnect and problem our minds which think in a linear way have when estimating a threat that is growing at an exponential rate and I referenced an article by Dr. Putnam that I said I would have to look up again, well anyway…I did and here is the name of it and where you can find it.
THE COLLAPSE OF DECISION MAKING AND ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE ON STORM KING MOUNTAIN
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usda/blm_putnam_storm_king.pdf
This is an excerpt from it that addresses what I was talking about..
“Studies also show that our linear thinking tends to underestimate hazards, particularly if the hazard is increasing at a logarithmic or exponential rate as can happen on the fireline. An example would be estimating rates of fire spread. A computer would give the better decision in a heartbeat. People would tend to underestimate the rate of spread and have difficulty deciding on an appropriate course of action. And so it is important to understand the limits of how we process information and common types of errors that can occur.”
I did read Dr. Putnam’s report–seems he found the training and decision making processes in managers and wild land fire fighting persons to be wanting. He ought to have a hay day looking at the Yarnell incident.
Speaking of stress increase concerning Steed and his men, it must have been the code red that Gary talks about–even as they left the black to hike up that two track while they observed the torrent of fire below–something they were about to attempt to outguess and knew was going to be a hail Mary attempt to beat the fire to their “bomb proof safety area”. Nothing bomb proof about getting there and Steed had argued with Marsh about doing the unthinkable. The men must have heard these arguments–Donut did and finally fessed up to that fact after some time and under Willis’s scrutiny and consent. So Dr. Ted Putnam’s stress related factors brought on the tunnel vision and behavior along with diminished decision making processes for all. Indeed the men could not see the boulders through their tunnel vision and the group think amounted to and was likely ordered by Marsh and Steed to cut out a hole in the brush and deploy the turkey blankets.
One Sonny still believes they could have gotten to the boulders and saved all–especially if they had dropped packs and equipment and boogied out to the South. Putnam says of the 30 fatalities over time at and before Storm King that none dropped packs and equipment to make a faster run for their lives. He says had they done so most would have survived.
Ted tells us these fatalities are due to lack of training in LCES–and not taking the psychological factors seriously. It is well known that it takes at least 21 times for the average bloke to absorb a new idea so he can incorporate it in his decision making process. That is training, and retraining–something that the wild land fire fighting bosses seem to think like Donut who was trained to believe the LCES and common sense rules of fire fighting were for the old hat people like Gary and Bob. I doubt he even knew what those letters represented and likely does not today. His example shows us how inadequately trained and prepared he and his men were to handle situations that the blow up of the Yarnell Hill Fire gave them.
Indeed the men who are covering this up are neglectful. If they admit their folly here at Yarnell, the wild land fire fighting community will have to take a very close look at the way they are training the young wild land fire fighter. They will have to admit that these men were woefully lacking in decision making. Their managers were also and considering that they had the lives of their men at stake–they certainly failed miserably. Putnam looks at this not as wanting to point out people making bad decisions, but to improve the system of training that has been causing these deaths.
As a citizen, I do have to agree with Ted. He hits the nail square on the head with his report that Gary put a link to. In some degree I wonder about the turkey roaster blankets. If these men are too psychologically dependent on those blankets are they going to deploy rather than run? I think had they no blankets in the Yarnell Incident they would have looked at the boulders as an area with almost no vegetation to burn and they would have tunnel visioned it up into the boulders–though I think they would have kept packs and saws like the deaths that Ted mentions should have been alive had they dropped their packs.
It is obvious now that the cadre does not want to take responsibility. Marsh and Steed are wondering why–they did their orders to protect structures and so did they kill the 17 young ones under them. Now it is time to fess up.
The Yarnell scenario demands better training for the wild land fire fighter. They need to train though this type brush, not running down paved and dirt roads or around their fire house. That in itself is a stressful condition to help their minds accustom to real life conditions. The restricted area needs to be unrestricted and every fire fighter that wants to see and feel the errors made by GMHS be allowed. This is a freedom of mind and a precursor to better safety and understanding of all the mistakes and bad decision making made that day–nothing add more to the desire to change the way things are being done than to walk that path.
It is sad that so many veterans have died in action–those in Iraq and Afghanistan, over 50,000 lives in Vietnam, thousands in Korea, hundreds of thousands in WW2 and WW1 so that Americans can retain a free state–lands available to all. Yet we have a state that restricts areas that should be available to all–charges fees to walk across our free lands and has no interest to change things that kills the very men that are willing to risk all, yet are not prepared properly in training to minimize that risk. It is alike sending green recruits into battle without basic training–some had never fired a rifle and god help them if they did not know how to get an M-14 unjammed in combat.
There are some nice people out there in the fire fighting business. Being nice is good, but then there is the business end that Gary, Bob, WTKTT, Dr. Ted Putnam, Norb S.., et. al. talk about. These are the nice people that want the truth about the Yarnell Fire operation out there so that the errors can be addressed and changes made–simple solutions that will save future wild land fighter lives. Now that is nice and good.
Well…it has been a very interesting couple of days here on IM. As usual, I have been reading emails and responding to them in ongoing sidebar discussions with both supporters and detractors of our efforts here on this blog.
And here are copies of two emails that I sent out this morning to two different people, one of whom is a supporter and one of whom is obviously a detractor. However, both of these emails sum up where I think we are at and what it is I think we do. And I want to share them with you. because you are indeed…my closest friends and confidants.
“I continue to be surprised at just how many people follow IM and I have a tendency to forget about
them when I am posting. Which is just as well, otherwise I would never post anything because I would be afraid of offending them, or of writing the wrong thing.”
“Oh…and IM is not a train wreck. Watching IM is like watching sausage being made, if you don’t like watching the process, which can be ugly and messy, just wait for the final product because there has been a great deal of that. And IM is the only place that is producing something, or has ever produced anything that can be useful to both those who loved the crew and wildland firefighters. IF they want to use it, otherwise they can simply ignore what we do.”
Lost in moderation, I was beginning to think John didn’t like me anymore. A good venting brings no relief if no one hears it, so I brought it up here.
The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says
APRIL 10, 2016 AT 10:20 PM
In the movie ‘Always” (1989), firefighters about to be overrun by the fire, holler “mayday, mayday, mayday” into the radio in an effort to obtain assistance.
Every actor in the movie knew what that meant, and responded accordingly.
Every person watching in the theater knew what that meant, without having to be told.
Twenty-seven years after wildland firefighters used it in the movie in an effort to save themselves, there is still no official ‘rescue call-out’ in the WFF world.
Implementing this universal terminology is one of the only (if not, THE only) thing(s) that could have been done immediately after the YHF that wouldn’t have cost one red cent, AND, of which, EVERYONE would already know the meaning after lifetimes of movie brainwashing. A few knowledgeable people in a room could hash-out usage guidelines in about a half hour. Simply, a no-brainer.
But, if nobody did anything wrong at the YHF, as the SAIR states, then it’s easy to see why nothing has changed.
If the feds can’t get off-the-dime on the simplest, no-cost ‘life-saving measures’, then God help us on ever getting the harder, less agreeable, and more expensive stuff accomplished.
And yes, I realize it was a ‘State” fire, but the feds lead the way on this sort of stuff.
Most (all) of you here are as frustrated as I am by the lack of change subsequent to the YHF. Yes, I realize this particular subject matter has been hashed-over before here on IM, but I’m simply venting now because I’m really pissed-off about this particular aspect..
There is simply no excuse for the inaction on this.
To any fed decision makers reading this: ‘Mayday, Mayday, Mayday’, simple enough, eh??
Reply
I saw that movie back then and GREAT POINT! And yes…that simple and life saving policy should have been implemented nationwide by August 1, 2013, at the latest. And I posted something very similar more than two years ago, but they don’t listen to me either. May God help us…because the NWCG isn’t.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
post April 13, 2016 at 9:24 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> There is simply no excuse for the inaction on this.
>>
>> To any fed decision makers reading this: ‘Mayday, Mayday, Mayday’
>> simple enough, eh??
Then I guess you must have ‘missed’ the actual ‘bullshit excuse’ that Arizona Forestry came up with about WHY they weren’t going to even TRY and fix even this one obvious thing that COULD be (easily) fixed?
The 12 families who were all represented by that one attorney, Patrick McGroder, in their ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits had this MAYDAY issue ‘front and center’ in ALL of their ‘settlement negotiations’.
When the ink dried on the actual ‘settlement’… here is exactly what Arizona Forestry had to say to them about this issue…
—————————————————————————–
Yarnell Hill Fire Legal Settlement Agreement
APPENDIX-A – Page 4 of 4 pages
What ASFD has already done:
( snip )
32. Plaintiffs had requested that ASFD discuss use of a “Mayday” button on all radios with IDIP. Unfortunately, upon further review, ASFD reports that large fire organizations (Type 1 or 2) would not be subject to IDIP recommendations. They operate their own incident level dispatch. This type of system coming off a Dispatch console would only reach Initial Attack resources. Use of a “Mayday” would be on a single frequency that may not reach all personnel or would not be directed at appropriate resources thus adding more confusion rather than removing. If it generates a blanket “Mayday” across all frequencies, this can cause issues at incidents that may not be involved in the “Mayday” situation. However, see ASFD’s commitment above to explore technological advances.
—————————————————————————–
How’s that for some slick bullshit?
They even tried to say that it was all about some ‘button’… and “Gee… that would be hard so we’re not gonna even try”.
Nothing about simply adopting that PROTOCOL that is already UNIVERSAL.
The morons didn’t even seem to realize that the REASON you are required to say ‘Mayday, Mayday, Mayday’ THREE times is because of the ‘problems’ that WERE discovered the first time the protocol was put into use over the English Channel.
NOTE: The word ‘Mayday’ itself comes from the French word “m’aider”, which means “help me”… and it worked well for both French and English speakers there in the English Channel.
They quickly realized that they DID need a way to distinguish between the SOURCE of the “Maday” call itself… and those that would then start using the same word to discuss it over the radio… like “Did you just hear that MAYDAY?”.
So it was decided that ONLY THE SOURCE of the emergency should say “Mayday, Mayday, Mayday”… and then others talking about the MAYDAY would not be confused as calling their own MAYDAY.
It’s not perfect… but go anywhere in the world, press a radio button, begin your transmission with those 3 words ( on ANY frequency )…and watch what happens.
People stop what they are doing and PAY ATTENTION.
And that’s the whole point.
Just to toss a small wrench into the discussion here..
Within my organization, MAYDAY is reserved for aircraft only.
If we have a problem we are supposed to say “Pan” 3 times.. meaning we want priority radio traffic.
If it is something really important, but not an emergency, we are supposed to say SECURITY 3 times, meaning we want priority radio traffic but its not an emergency.
I believe these terms come from the World War 2 era, as it is how the troops used it to communicate during the war.
In 33 years I have never heard PAN or SECURITY.
I , myself, have broke into blah blah blah radio conversations saying that I am requesting priority traffic and had success with people shuttin gup and letting me get my message out..
So what I am saying and confirming to the group here is that there is no UNIVERSAL code for an emergency like Yarnell, so maybe its time we did have one…
Maybe its MAYDAY for aircraft and HELP HELP HELP for any other emergency ???
Rocksteady,
If my memory serves me, you live in Canada. The accepted universal life-threatening alert notification in the States for aircraft, boating/shipping, and the structural firefighting world is ‘mayday, mayday, mayday’.
This proposal would just be an extension of that already accepted practice into the wildland realm. There has never been a need that I have heard of (and as you said, you haven’t heard of one in 33 years) that would require “PAN or Security, so those should be eliminated from the equation.
As far a “Help, Help, Help, if those words would have been substituted into the ‘Always’ movie back in 1989, people would have been scratching their heads wondering where the hell ‘that’ came from, and thinking that that sounded ridiculous, because they’d never heard it before. In actuality, everyone in the theater new immediately what mayday meant, and that was 27 years ago.
The simplicity required to get something actually accomplished is this regard, dictates that the wildland realm be added to the other disciplines (in the States) that have been using this system successfully for years.
The REAL WRENCH in the gears would be to try and establish something entirely different for wildland, or add a bunch of unnecessary parts. I can guarantee that you and I would be long dead-and-gone, before anything would ever come of that.
Ttware is here..where is Rod Wrench and Sitta…by the way good to see old commenters here again…
Thanks for pointing out the reasons for Mayday, Mayday, Mayday–WTKTT. No button is necessary, just protocol as you point out–no one is going to scold someone for trying to get help if they hear those words. Good lord how stupid can the honchos be in not seeing that this Mayday call for help needs to be used. Forget the button, use the words.
Reply to Charlie post on April 14, 2016 at 8:14 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Forget the button, use the words.
Exactly.
And no one using a radio in their line of work actually needs anyone’s fucking PERMISSION to ‘use the words’, either.
Use it when you need to… regardless of how many stuffed shirts above you feel they have to all ‘discuss it to death’ and issue any kind of ‘memos’ about it.
I sure as hell would.
I was taught how to make that radio call when I was a ‘Cub Scout’. Didn’t even have to wait for ‘Boy Scouts’.
And it should have been CLEAR to those ‘Hotshots’ long before the Yarnell Tragedy that they didn’t need anyone’s fucking PERMISSION to use that radio callout if/when necessary.
They should have just gone ahead and used it, anyway.
I’m torn with the discussion on Mayday protocol. On one hand it sounds like a good idea and it’s needed to have a plan in place to make it clear that someone is is distress on the fireline. On the other hand, I’m afraid it adds weight to the notion that it wasn’t clear that GM was in fact in distress that day and needed immediate help. I believe it was obvious, from listening to the audio, that GM was in trouble and for some reason it wasn’t taken seriously. Ops knew it. Is a new Mayday protocol going to solve the problem like what happened at Yarnell Hill? I don’t know. How about we answer the fucking radio for starters. That would be great.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You are correct.
Every single person that heard GM on the radio that day KNEW IMMEDIATELY that the crew was in a bad situation EXCEPT ONE, sitting in an airplane, purposely ignoring the transmissions because they were yelling on the radio, and the fact that he thought it was coming from structure engine slugs, yelling for structure protection (my description, his was a less derogatory)..
I have noticed over the years that some people’s response to yelling over the radio, is to ignore that transmission. I think that is exactly what happened in this case.
So, in answer to your question ‘would that have made a difference in Yarnell?’, I would say ABSOLUTELY. Anyone not responding to someone yelling “Mayday, Mayday, Mayday” into the radio. needs to be permanently removed from their duties. Honestly though, I don’t we would have to worry about that ever happening, because everyone knew what Mayday meant, even 27 years ago.
Where it all got bogged-down in the litigation was when the plaintiffs proposed that a “mayday button” be added to the radio. That would never work (and isn’t necessary) in the wildland realm for a litany of reasons, not the least of which, would be the cost of replacing every radio in the country.
Not surprisingly, most structure departments already have a designated button on their radios that will initiate an emergency tone, and I think that’s where the plaintiffs were getting the idea from.
This emergency tone doesn’t always mean “Mayday”, it’s simply an emergency tone to clear the airways for emergency traffic, possibly for an immediate need to evacuate a building, or some other immediate hazard. That tone is followed-up by the pertinent information. If someone is trapped, or in other great peril, that person will follow-up the tone with the “Mayday, mayday, mayday” phrase and provide details.
Attempting to add an emergency tone to the wildland realm would add another 30 years of BS before implementation.
The feds MUST led the way on this.
The State was never in the position to do so, and where the plaintiffs stumbled in this request was, simply, in not just requesting that the State put supportive pressure towards the feds to get a verbal ‘mayday,mayday,mayday’ policy implemented forthwith.
The Mayday system has worked-out fine around the world for eons, saving countless lives.
There is no need to make this complicated and re-invent the wheel. This wheel was invented eons ago and works very well, thank you.
As I alluded to in my original comment, “MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, XXX CREW CALLING, WE’RE (IN DEEP SHIT) AT XXX LOCATION.” Wait for response and/or repeat as necessary.
Simple
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive (TTWARE)
post on April 14, 2016 at 8:37 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> There is no need to make this complicated and re-invent the wheel.
>> This wheel was invented eons ago and works very well, thank you.
>>
>> As I alluded to in my original comment, “MAYDAY, MAYDAY,
>> MAYDAY, XXX CREW CALLING, WE’RE (IN DEEP SHIT) AT
>> XXX LOCATION.” Wait for response and/or repeat as necessary.
>>
>> Simple.
Yep… but notice what Arizona Forestry did there, in the settlement agreement. They played this ‘game’ ( as usual ) of ONLY addressing the exact, specific request being made ( add a MAYDAY button/tone to the WFF industry ). They came back with “Sorry… can’t do that”. Period. End of Story. Thanks for playing this little game. Have a Nice Day.
No ‘alternative’ offered such as pursuing the idea of making SURE the existing MAYDAY protocol is simply fully part of the TRAINING that ALL WFFs receive… and making SURE people in the field know they are allowed to use it, if/when ever necessary.
That being said… ( and speaking of radio in-hand )… there really doesn’t need to be any ‘formal memos’ about such a simple thing.
ANYONE who ever finds themselves using a radio in their line of work should simply KNOW that they are allowed to use the “Mayday, Mayday, Mayday” call prefix if/when the situation ever arises.
In other words… no one using a radio ( in ANY business ), needs anyone’s fucking PERMISSION to use it.
Just go ahead and use it when you need to.
The consequences of NOT using it are now clearly heard in a historic radio transmission sequence captured by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd.
The absence of ANY kind of “this is a REAL EMERGENCY” indication on the radio calls themsevles ( other than the obvious yelling… which was still the ‘clue’ for everyone BUT John Burfiend ) is what gave John Burfiend the ‘opportunity’ to just ignore the calls for upwards of 2 minutes and 15 seconds.
I am ( of course ) NOT suggesting those 2+ minutes represent any kind of ‘lost chance’ to make a retardant drop. That has been discussed to death and the consensus is NO… there still would have been no real opportunity to pull that off even if their EXACT location was known.
Granite Mountain simply waited TOO LONG to even TRY and contact Air Attack.
But you still have to wonder… what other INFORMATION could have been exchanged in those 2 minutes and 15 seconds before OPS1 Todd Abel had to finally just ORDER John Burfiend to answer those desperate men.
2 minutes and 15 seconds of ‘conversation’ ( while the radios were still working out there at the deployment site ) would have been more than enough time to ascertain their EXACT LOCATION.
What if they had not ALL actually DIED right away?
It probably STILL would have taken close to the same TWO HOURS to find their location given the way those final transmissions went down… and the fact that even people like Gary Corde who knew EXACTLY where they were going seemed to remain ‘silent’ about it after the deployment.
What if the Medical Examiner had come back and said…
“At least 4 of the deceased did not die right away. They succumbed to their injuries after some period of time”.
That means the TOTAL FAILURE to FULLY COMMUNICATE that we are now left with in that Historic radio capture really would have meant the difference between ‘life’ or ‘death’ for SOME of those men.
Discussions about GPS locators being carried by at least Crew Bosses is still a good conversation to have ( it’s the year 2016, fer chrissakes )… but the crew’s EXACT location should have been KNOWN after 2 and a half fucking minutes of people pushing radio buttons and just trying to get someone’s ‘permission’ to start talking.
Even now… it still astounds me how that conversation ended.
OPS1 Todd Abel finally realizes Burfiend IS ‘ignoring’ those radio callouts… and Abel then ORDERS Burfiend to answer those men… and Burfiend then reacts right away like a kid caught sleeping in class by the teacher… but now there was only time for this.
——————————————————————
Eric Marsh: I’m here with Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Our escape route has been cut off.
We are preparing a deployment site and we are burning
out around ourselves in the brush and I’ll give you a call
when we are under the she… shelters.
John Burfiend: Okay, copy that. So… you’re on the south
side of the fire, then?
Eric Marsh: Affirm.
——————————————————————-
Even with that last (final) opportunity to finally say EXACTLY where they were located… Eric Marsh remained his usual ‘obtuse’ self and only said ‘Affirm’.
Their EXACT location SHOULD have been ascertained long before this final transmission… but even with all the ‘information’ Marsh was able to impart at the last minute… he still neglected to add even something as simple as “We are about 600 yards due west of the Boulder Springs Ranch”.
There is ( and has ALWAYS been ) a “Lesson to Learn” here.
An EMERGENCY anywhere on the fireline is like the real estate business.
Its’ ALL about “Location, Location, Location”.
Give it first, give it often… until you are sure they KNOW where you are.
You might not die during the burnover itself… but you will if they don’t find you pretty quick.
.
I should have said welcome back,so…Welcome Back!
Just to put some more flesh on the bones of “Mayday” that most/some of us think would have helped that day (Take out the spaces to get the links to work);
https:// en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Mayday
“In 1927, the International Radiotelegraph Convention of Washington D.C. adopted the voice call Mayday in place of the SOS Morse code call”
i.e. for anyone using “Radiotelegraph”, not just aviation or marine.
…and I knew all that (before wikipedia was up and running) because back in the dawn of history 1897 Marconi made the very FIRST radio transmission across open water from a little place in Wales (UK) called Lavernock Point, to a small island Flat Holm. Lavernock is just around the corner from me, and I’ve had an interest in radio ever since I found out.; (again take out the spaces to get the link)
https:// en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Lavernock
If I was in trouble “Mayday Mayday Mayday” would be the first thing I’d transmit on any radio.
Over and Out
You are right Otis. It is universal aircraft or not. Every one in this day and age understands exactly what it means.
18 are situatons that shouut watch out…/. not rules …. things to keep EYS OPEN FOR
tguys on here map it seem like allways perfect!!!
Well… if you ‘keep your eyes open’ and ‘watch out’ for all the ‘situations’…
…you will most likely go home ALIVE.
If you don’t… you are likely to NOT.
So if you actually WANT to ‘go home ALIVE’… then they ARE ‘the RULES’
to follow that have already been paid for by the ones who did not.
On June 30, 2013… 19 men did not ‘follow the RULES’… and they became just
more ‘ghosts’ whispering “Don’t do what we did. Go home ALIVE”.
WTKTT–Right, in fact they followed Donut’s theory–the rules are Hill Billy. Except he does not understand a hill billy–they would have never been caught in the brush with a fire raging nearby and I don’t think most would have considered using a turkey roaster blanket near an old grader. What they did not only was against LCES, 10 and 18, it was against common sense–the parallel of the rules of fire fighting.
Dale1,
You have a lot to learn & I genuinely hope that you do. If you knew personnel on GM, I’m sorry for your loss. Listen to the folks that post on this site. Lives were lost in order for the the development of the 10/18 & LCES to take place. The price of this knowledge was paid with the lives of firefighters. It doesn’t need to happen again. Follow the rules and go home to fight the good fight another day. It’s a wildfire, not a terrorist attack. No one has to die to mitigate the situation. I hope that you can gain understanding of these tenets and take them seriously so that you too will survive another day. No more needless dying.
Woodsman
The 18 situations are like construction site warning signs.
They are like a stop sign a yield sign a Rail Road sign a intersection sign and so on.
The situations are there for a reason people died because they did not recognize the Hazard.
They all mean stop check your plan your position Look up Look down look all around
decide what the safe move is and go thru the Orders or set up LCES they are warning signs that should never be ignored.
Granit Mountain ignored Escape route not identified.
Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
This is the big one it has killed many a unaware fire fighter. Dating back to Man Gulch and up to and including Storm King and Yarnell Hill
Then jump to last year several died on seperiate fires because they were in unburned fuel with the fire rapidly approaching them.
Can Not see the main fire and not in contact with any one who can.
Granit Mountain ignored this and never assigned a lookout to keep the fire from overrunning them.
The weather had got hot and dry with predicted wind. The crew watched this and then ignored the warning signals of what the fire was about to do. That’s #14 
When all those old school things are happening and Marsh and Steed took their crew and walk out of the black and into a brush filled canyon.
My conclusion they were not following any rules of safety or paying attention to any critical warning signs THE SITUATIONS THAT SHOUT WATCH OUT
WHY did those old school fire fighters Put in that sentence SHOUT.
Maybe to get you attention like there are sirens going off here get your shit together and pay attention. Follow the TEN STANDARD ORDERS and go home. It is that simple.
You guys should take a quick look at this, The History of the 10-18
https://youtu.be/M2L_sUDKdkw
David Turbyfill
your rock is no longer there David at the memorial 19 on the Weavers- did you take it off?
We saw the beautiful birthday layout you did a few weeks back—or someone in the family if not you—
From Yarnell Fire Realities:
DECISION MAKING:
As the 2016 Fire Season starts, be thoughtful, be mindful, and be warry of critical decisions made by Superiors handing out assignments for you to execute on the Fire line.
Why do I bring this up???? Last week I went on the Staff Ride for the Yarnell Hill Fire, as a Family member, I was more than disappointed. I observed that the ICMT from both Saturday and Sunday believe in this fairy tale that “They” made no decisions that they wouldn’t do again. They are in lock step that GMIHC made the critical Misjudgment to “Move” from the Lunch Spot, as well was not properly trained on “Emergency Radio Traffic” protocols.
I now have the belief that Wildland Fire Commanders may need to learn new and better tactics and strategies. I know this may ruffle some “Feathers” out there, but that is what I want. Looking for Brave and thoughtful discussion.
Mr. Turbyfill,
I am deeply sorry for your loss.
There seems to be 2 basic ‘camps’ here. Those who believe the leadership of GM was solely responsible for the tragedy independently and those who believe it was a combination of GM leadership and other contributing factors which may include orders to come off the ridge and get to the boulder springs ranch to re-engage in some way. I am in the latter camp.
A concern of mine was that the family staff ride would revolve around a narrative that mirrors the results of the underwhelming SAIR. Your input seems to indicate that the family staff ride did just that. I look forward to any additional input you are willing to provide about the staff ride. I am interested in the whole truth at Yarnell Hill and it’s prevention from ever happening again.
Thank you,
Woodsman
Thanks Dave
The new realm of drought, fuel loading and weather patterns are part and parcel
For the need to rethink Tactics and Strategies this is where all wild land fire managers need to adjust to a new or maybe just change in the suppression strategies.
The Chief of the Forest Service has sent down a directive changing some very specific things that will help chance the concept of fire suppression..
We shall see if they can move to a different process. or as you say a new process.
I still have some hope that will happen.
David- thank you for sharing your staff ride experience.
I agree with you…what we need to do is ruffle those feathers-
It is not right to allow the fairytale…as books come out and movies come out…we will keep searching for clarity for your son and the men…but I am sorry you walked the trail many times before that this time with the people who were suppose to offer you clarity failed you…what would it take for you to feel feathers were ruffled and change happened?
David Turbyfill says: Last week I went on the Staff Ride for the Yarnell Hill Fire, as a Family member, I was more than disappointed. I observed that the ICMT from both Saturday and Sunday believe in this fairy tale that “They” made no decisions that they wouldn’t do again
Thanks for informing us about how the staff ride looked at the solutions. Just the fact that they saw no errors in what the bosses did to the men by risking their lives to protect structures tells us they are going to continue to live that fairy tale at the expense of future wild land fire fighters lives. It is obvious that no one wants to accept responsibility for negligent actions that killed the men nor take action to remedy the causes.
Here on this site are some of the finest both retired and working supervisors of wild land fire fighters who have investigated the situation and know there needs to be a cure to a situation that was no accident. They will not quit until all the facts are out and the real reasons for those deaths are exposed. Only a fool would say they would again do what they did that day and that is proven by every wild land fire fighting person we have hiked with.
The last man had supervised two crews of wild land fire fighters and now is retired. His statement was there is no way I would have sent one of my crews down into that basin with the fire anywhere near. Of all the knowledgeable and even non-knowledgeable people of the wild land fire fighting work, not one said it was a reasonable thing to leave the safe zone to go into that trap. So what you heard sounds like a prepared statement. Those men need to meet the real wild land fire fighters that have had years of experience. I suspect they were either non-firefighters parroting what someone had said to them. If not then they are protecting a system to make that incident look clean when it was and absolute failure.
My condolences. I have a sad heart from the loss of my own son. something I have never gotten over. I know the hurt of the loved ones due to someone’s negligent actions at Yarnell I know that there is so much they missed in life because some fools that were supervising did not take care of business and were more interested in making a good show for themselves than taking care for the safety of their employees.
The death of those 19 was absolutely preventable and their lives should never been risked to protect structures.
Reply to David Turbyfill post on April 13, 2016 at 3:52 pm
>> David Turbyfill said…
>>
>> Last week I went on the Staff Ride for the Yarnell Hill Fire, as a Family
>> member, I was more than disappointed.
I have also said this before… but first and foremost… I am so sorry for your loss.
I am now also sorry for the continuing ‘disappointment’ you are forced to experience at the hands of those who were tasked with investigating this National, Historic tragedy and doing the best they can to fully UNDERSTAND exactly what happened in order to make sure, as much as is humanly possible, that it never happens again.
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> I observed that the ICMT from both Saturday and Sunday believe in this
>> fairy tale that “They” made no decisions that they wouldn’t do again.
Astounding.
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> They are in lock step that GMIHC made the critical Misjudgment to
>> “Move” from the Lunch Spot
It has always been ( and remains ) highly unlikely that kind of critical ‘resource movement’ decision at such a critical TIME in the burn cycle was made completely in a ‘vacuum ‘ between just a DIVS and the leader of his ONLY assigned resource… the GMIHC.
If it really was… then that alone violates all kinds of regulations in the DIVS taskbook itself about ALWAYS making sure your OPS supervisors are fully and totally aware of those kinds of resource movements… and remains an important “Lesson to be Learned” all by itself. It should NEVER happen that way again. EVER.
Were ‘They’ also in ‘lock step’, then, that Brendan McDonough has publicly testified ( at Wildfire Today ) and basically CONFIRMED that there really was a ‘disagreement/argument’ between Marsh and Steed about this risky move… and that DIVSA Eric Marsh terminated the ‘discussion’ by basically ORDERING Jesse Steed to bring those men out of the safe-black at that critical time?…
…or are ‘They’ still in complete “De Nile is a River in Egypt” about this and there was no mention of this at all on the official ‘Staff Ride’?
Also… FWIW…
If the SMEs on this ‘Staff Ride’ were saying that GMIHC actually ‘moved out’ to head for the Boulder Springs Ranch from the place where they had lunch… and from where Andrew Ashcraft texted that photo to his wife at exactly 2:13 PM with the accompanying caption “This is my lunch spot…too bad lunch was an MRE”… then I’m afraid that is just more proof of their ongoing incompetence and that they still have their heads so far up their asses that the whole world must look brown to them.
The locations marked as ‘Stand 3A’ and ‘Stand 3B – Lunch Spot’ in the official ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’ are nowhere near either the place that was actually their ‘Lunch Spot’ or the place known as the ‘Final Resting Spot’.
Stands 3A and 3B are both approximately 254 yards ( 763 feet ) due SOUTHWEST of the actual ‘Lunch Spot’ used by Granite Mountain circa 2:16 PM.
Stands 3A and 3B are both approximately 94.8 yards ( 284 feet ) due SOUTH of the actual ‘Final Resting Spot’ where Christopher MacKenzie shot his two 9 second videos and from where GMIHC actually ‘departed’ for the Boulder Springs Ranch sometime in the 8 minute period between 3:56 PM and 4:04 PM.
They are also now ( in the official Staff Guide ) trying to ‘dial back’ some times that were were already wrong even in the original SAIR… and now they are making them even ‘more wrong’ than they were in the first place.
Example: There is now an ‘inset’ box on their reprint of the page from the SAIR that said Byron Kimball’s critical weather forecast about the 40-50 mph winds and the EXPECTED complete fireline direction reversals happened at around 1550 ( 3:50 PM ) that day. That has always been wrong… but now a new ‘inset’ box in the ‘Staff Ride Guide’ is trying do ‘dial back’ that WRONG time by a FULL HOUR… to 1450 ( 2:50 PM ).
That is an absolute fantasy… and for such a critical event in the timeline it just represents more sheer incompetence.
One of the Panebaker Air Study videos with totally verifiable timestamps that Arizona Forestry and the SAIT have always had ( and still have ) access to actually CAPTURES that important ‘weather forecast’ from Byron Kimball as it was happening.
Byron Kimball began his critical weather update over the open TAC channel at 9 seconds before 1530 ( 3:29:51 PM )… and he was finished with it by 1531 ( 3:51 PM ).
And that’s just a ‘sampling’.
There are still many, many other FACTUAL ERRORS contained in this official ‘Staff Ride Guide’. TOO many. It just represents absolute incompetence, which is not what anyone taking this ‘Staff Ride’ should be subjected to after all this time and effort and MONEY being spent on this (cough) “Learning Product”.
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> as well was not properly trained on “Emergency Radio Traffic” protocols.
That is ( and always has been ) a widespread problem in the ENTIRE Wildland Firefighting industry itself… and has never more ‘evident’ than it was that day in Yarnell.
It is still PAINFUL to hear those men desperately trying to get Air Attack John Burfiend to pay attention to them and respond to them for more than 2 minutes and 15 seconds… until OPS1 Todd Abel himself, miles away, realized that Burfiend was ‘ignoring’ their desperate pleas for help and had to ORDER Burfiend to respond to them.
The lawsuit settlement asked that it be specifically addressed… but Arizona Forestry has already basically ‘tossed it in the round file’ by saying it would be too hard to implement any kind of MAYDAY protocol given their own inability to enforce Inter-Agency ‘standards’.
So much for that ( good ) idea that might easily save lives in the future.
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> I now have the belief that Wildland Fire Commanders may need to learn
>> new and better tactics and strategies.
The caption at the top of the official “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center” website says…
“A lesson is learned when we change our behavior”.
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> I know this may ruffle some “Feathers” out there, but that is what I want.
No need to worry about ‘feathers’ around here.
One of the ongoing mottos around here is an old Irish saying…
“Nuair a thosaíonn daoine a rá go bhfuil tú ‘ stirring an phota ‘ … ansin tá sé in am chun tús chur dul amach níos mó spúnóga”.
“When people start to say you are ‘stirring the pot’… then it’s time to start passing out more spoons”.
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> From Yarnell Fire Realities:
For those who don’t already know…
David ( and Shari ) Trubyfill’s “Yarnell Fire Realties” page is here…
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/
It is, as the title suggests, a place where REALISTIC talk and evaluations of the Yarnell Hill Tragedy have ALWAYS been welcomed and encouraged.
There are already ( just in the past few hours ) some excellent ‘comments’ being left on the posting reprinted above by Mr. Turbyfill.
And there is also this… from the day after last week’s ‘Beta Staff Ride’…
——————————————————————————————
Yarnell Fire Realities – Posted on April 6 at 12:59pm
Some of us spent yesterday with all of the leaders… of that fire and after a grueling 6 hour hike and stations of conversation at certain points it is my belief …. as far as Arizona State Fire goes it is very disconnected and there appears to be more of a culture of Delegation and not my job then true honesty integrity and transparency.
I’m a very unpopular person for having this opinion but my opinion was formed by the events that took place yesterday that I witnessed for myself.
How do you change a culture when the leaders see nothing wrong with it?
When asked questions and the answers are I don’t know.
And how sad it is to read the comment of David sheets to never trust overhead.
But with my experience sadly to say I think he’s right
Wildland firefighting needs to be revamped completely the fires are different the world is different we can’t rely on how it used to be….. it’s killing us.
I find this page valuable to those who want the truth.
I also want those who read this page to know that the truth is very difficult to find. Rumors and gossip flow much more freely because you don’t have to prove it.
This comment is posted exclusively from the observation and opinions I saw and formed yesterday – Shari
——————————————————————————————
And then there is this post on the PUBLIC “Yarnell Fire Realities” Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/
Comments made just yesterday about the article posted last week by John Dougherty regarding the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride…
Shari Turbyfill “tellin’ it like it is”…
————————————————————–
Chad Walker – Yesterday at 9:11pm
Have you seen any of these videos or pictures that the article speaks about?
Phoenix NewTimes
Wildfire Expert Alleges Arizona Forestry Division Covering Up Yarnell Hill Tragedy
By John Dougherty
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/wildfire-expert-alleges-arizona-forestry-division-covering-up-yarnell-hill-tragedy-8186962
Yarnell Fire Realities – 14 hrs ago – Edited
Yes Chad we have and hiked and saw with our own eyes the supposed decent to the ranch safety zone….you can not see the bowl where they died until you are half way down a rugged descent and it’s to the left on your right is a wall of boulders those boys had to be ordered down to Yarnell to reengage I cannot imagine them voluntarily choosing that path and then when the fire roared over the ranch they had no opportunity but to maybe go left and create a deployment site because there were no Communications . When it went bad it all went bad quickly and Bravo 33 was not much help by ignoring the repeated requests from Granite Mountain 7. Our boys are gone and covered in a veil of unclear cover your-ass poor management. There are so many holes and so many disconnected answers from Arizona State Fire that I wouldn’t trust their policies guidelines and procedures to put out a piece of paper on fire in my kitchen sink. If you’re a wildland firefighter in the state of Arizona … Know for sure that the boys in Phoenix sitting at their desks being important don’t have your back they’re too busy covering their own ass. Instead of spending two and a half years blowing smoke up our ass trying to tell the families that our boys were idiots…. wouldn’t it have been more effective for Arizona State leadership to just tell the truth take the hit and be better for all the future Wildland firefighters in our state…… Nope cya is The Game Plan and more people will die it hurts my heart – Shari ( Turbyfill )
———————————————————————–
Apologies… I misspelled ‘Turbyfill’ up above.
Section in the comment above should have read like this…
———————————————————————————
For those who don’t already know…
David ( and Shari ) Turbyfill’s “Yarnell Fire Realties” page is here…
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/
It is, as the title suggests, a place where REALISTIC talk and evaluations of the Yarnell Hill Tragedy have ALWAYS been welcomed and encouraged.
——————————————————————————-
WTKTT–You did not need a weather man to warn you about pending changes in wind and weather conditions. As you looked to the NE watching the progress of the fire as early as 9 am you could see the lightening and gathering clouds–precursors to certain changes not too far distant from the Weavers. So even if they never got a message, which they had to have early on, then they had to be looking at eminent change in weather conditions unless they were totally oblivious to natural signs of such.
Reply to gizmo post on April 13, 2016 at 12:35 pm
>> gizmo said…
>>
>> Does anyone realize that firefighters can impliment the 10&18
>> and LCES and still get killed?
When has that EVER happened?
There WAS an ‘extensive’ discussion about the point you just tried to make many, many chapters ago… and the answer was… “Not ONCE. Not EVER”.
Many, many lives were lost in order to even PRODUCE those ‘rules’… and since they were implemented… those that strictly follow them ALWAYS get to go home to their loved ones.
Those that do not… well… some of them don’t.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> And I’m not just talking about Yarnell.
That’s good… because if you WERE ‘only talking about Yarnell’…. and trying to suggest that Granite Mountain DID have LCES and the 10&18 fully ‘implemented’… but still, somehow, mysteriously burned to death on the floor of an explosive-fuel-filled BLIND box canyon by a dynamic wind-driven fire doing exactly what it was predicted to do… well… that would be a pretty off the wall suggestion.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> The complex transition fires that are the norm are scary animals.
Yes… and all the MORE reason to be DOUBLY sure you are following the safety rules of your profession when you realize you are ‘in’ one of those ‘situations’.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Fighting fire is a risky business and people die and always will due to
>> gravity, rigs, heart attacks, etc.
Yes… and even getting into helicopters where the owner is misrepresenting the base weight in order to hang onto those juicy, lucrative government contracts.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Burnovers centered around transition fires and structures are the new
>> bastard we are faced with.
Again… follow the established ‘rules of engagement’… and you will probably live.
Purposely ignore them… and you will probably die.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> The public expects us to step in between their property and the fire
>> and save it, is that the norm now?
Not in Arizona.
The lawyers from the Arizona Attorney General’s office who are currently representing Arizona Forestry in the appeal of the 260+ property damage lawsuits have ALREADY submitted legal briefs to the Judge in that case saying that Arizona Forestry never has one single atomic molecule of responsibility to EVER be ‘protecting citizens or structures’.
The Judge has ‘accepted’ that legal defense as part of the case AGAINST those who suffered property damage in Yarnell on June 30, 2016.
The ‘public’ can ‘expect’ anything it wants to.
If you work for Arizona Forestry… on any of their ‘fires’… then their own lawyers have already said that you NEVER have ANY responsibility to be protecting structures or citizens.
And if you DO try to do that… then you are NOW ‘committing negligence’ all on your own… because that is not something your employer is legally responsible for doing.
You are then ‘freelancing’.
This is not my ‘opinion’.
This is the actual LEGAL ARGUMENT Arizona Forestry itself is making in an Arizona Court.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Albeit those fires are the meaningful ones because we are actually making a
>> difference rather than standing on a ridge in the middle of nowhere or some
>> snag patch wondering what the hell we are really doing.
See above, and the LEGAL ARGUMENT Arizona Forestry is currently standing behind as they try to defeat the Yarnell ‘property damage’ lawsuits.
Your own ‘wanting to make a difference’ has nothing to do with what you are SUPPOSED to be doing if you are ever hired to work a fire by Arizona Forestry.
The people you are working FOR ( Arizona Forestry ) don’t think they have one single atomic molecule of either duty or responsibility to ever be protecting ‘citizens or structures’.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> I suppose what makes me sad is we truly don’t know what GM had implemented
>> and it isn’t fair to assume because they died they didn’t have safety rules in place.
Brendan McDonough has already testified that he ( and Granite Mountain ) considered LCES and the 10&18 to be ‘old school’ and ( Brendan’s word ) “Hillbilly”.
And McDonough didn’t just pull that opinion out of his butt. He is repeating something that he was TAUGHT to believe…. but the men who TRAINED him.
The consensus on LCES with regards to Granite Mountain circa 4:15 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013 is still pretty much as follows…
L = Non existent.
C = Horribly BAD.
E = Insane – 2 miles ( TWO MILES! ) long with half of it a chosen bushwhack route through a blind box canyon full of explosive unburned fuel within 1/4 mile of a dynamic wind-driven wildfire in ultra-extreme drought conditions at the height of the burn cycle.
S = Questionable – Only non-deployment survival dependent on getting inside structures.
As for just the ‘C’ part alone… the Co-leader of the original SAIT investigation team, USFS employee Mike Dudley… would eventually tell a roomful of firefighters in Utah on June 20, 2014, that he always thought Eric Marsh was not only communicating BADLY that day… but Dudley believes it was even far worse than that… and that Eric Marsh was being ( Dudley’s own words ) “DELIBERATELY VAGUE” about what he and Granite Mountain were even TRYING to do that day.
Of course that wasn’t in the SAIR document that Dudley was responsible for producing… but almost a year later he finally admitted that once he saw all the evidence… that was the conclusion he had actually come to.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Firefighters may believe they have everything checked on the list and
>> still something happens that kills them.
See above. WHEN has that EVER been documented to have happened in Widlland Firefighting?
Even if it had… are you trying to say ( for example ) that if a policeman ‘believes’ he has his safety on… but ends up inadvertently discharging his weapon as he goes to pull it out and kills either himself or someone else… that’s just ‘shit that happens’… nothing to see here… move along?
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Also, bashing does not translate into learning or human factors, this is similar
>> to how reports were done in the 80’s and 90’s and it hinders learning.
I’m not really sure what you’re definition of ‘bashing’ is… but sometimes you actually DO have to hit mules with 2x4s in order to even get their attention.
It also ‘hinders learning’ when the people tasked with officially investigating the incident end up covering up what REALLY happened as well… wouldn’t you say?
In case you haven’t realized it yet… the one thing that sets the most people ‘off’ around here is the continual suggestion first put forth by Arizona Forestry and the SAIT.
Shit happens. Nothing to see ( or learn ) here. Move along. Move along.
Around here… it’s more like…
Shit is STILL happening. There is PLENTY to see ( and learn ) here. Gather ’round. Gather ’round.
**
** THE ACTUAL INVITATION SENT TO FAMILY MEMBERS
As long as we are discussing ‘expectations’ for a ‘Staff Ride’… it’s worth taking a moment to read the ACTUAL invitation letter that was sent out by Don Boursier of Arizona Forestry to ALL of the ‘family members’.
See the complete ‘invitation’ he sent down below…. word for word.
Don Boursier was hired by Arizona Forestry as a ‘Fuels Expert’ following the settlement of the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits with just those 12 family members represented by Prescott attorney Patrick McGroder… but Don Boursier’s first JOB with Arizona Forestry is to help them work through this ‘legal settlement’ with those families and take care of the things that Arizona Forestry is legally obligated to do in order to fulfill THEIR part of the ‘settlement agreement’.
That includes handling this day-long Q/A with the family members… AND the ‘Staff Ride’.
Notice ( at least ) the following in his actual ‘invitation letter’ to the families.
1. The ‘Staff Ride’ being developed is NOT supposed to be just some ‘show me’ dog-and-pony.
Boursier himself is describing it ( to family members ) as a “high quality learning product’ that will
(quote) “educate firefighters across the nation and put them in the shoes and decision making process of the Granite Mountain Hotshots”.
NOTE: We still have yet to learn whether what is being said ‘out there’ on the ‘Staff Ride’ by the SMEs comes anywhere near fulfilling this description of ‘the product’ by Don Boursier… but we at least already know the ‘Staff Ride Guide’ is no such thing. Not even close.
2. Family members are allowed to chose ANYONE they like as a ‘support person’. There were no ‘caveats’ imposed on the selection in the actual invitation letter.
3. After being ‘called out’ about it… Don Boursier subsequently admitted that it was wrong of him to use the term “true path of Granite Mountain” to describe the “Full Monty” ( arduous ) route of the ‘Staff Ride’. He neglects to tell the families in this ‘invitation letter’ that Arizona Forestry was unable to obtain hiking permissions for certain parts of the ‘Staff Ride’ that DO include the ‘true path of Granite Mountain’.
It has also since been determined that some of the ‘Stands’ they are describing in the ‘Staff Ride Guide’ are actually nowhere near being the ‘locations’ they seem to think they are… such as the ‘Lunch Spot’ or the ‘Final Resting Place’ where the men were actually gathered before leaving the ‘safe black’ that day.
4. Don Boursier tells the family members there has already been an ‘Alpha’ test run of the ‘Staff Ride’ with an invited audience of (quote) “22 highly esteemed personnel from across the nation”… but Boursier neglects to mention who ANY of these ‘highly esteemed’ people really WERE.
5. Boursier tells the families that these ’22 highly esteemed personnel’ have already provided ‘input’ about the ‘Staff Ride’ and that (quote) “Their recommendations have now been incorporated”. He gives the impression that ALL of the ‘recommendations’ for ‘changes’ from the ‘esteemed personnel’ have now been incorporated into the ‘Staff Ride’… but that is NOT TRUE. Emails obtained via Arizona Open Records show this ‘feedback’ coming into Don Boursier and the OMNA international employees… and only SOME of their ‘recommendations’ were incorporated into the Staff Ride product.
6. Boursier is telling the families that they have “High Caliber” SMEs being used to do the ‘presentations’ out there at the Stands… but he does not tell the families WHO they are.
It has since been determined that at least THREE of these SMEs being used to do ‘Stand presentations’ out there are Former Prescott Wildland Division Chief ( and SPGS2 at Yarnell ) Darrell Willis, OPS2 Paul Musser, and Air -Attack right-seat-occupant John Burfiend.
Darrell Willis is now also being listed as an ’employee’ of OMNA International, the commercial ‘Staff Ride Development’ company run primarily by former US marines that was contracted to develop this ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’.
Here is the full ‘invitation letter’ that was sent out by Don Boursier to ALL family members…
————————————————————————————————
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 8:31 AM, Don Boursier wrote:
On behalf of the Staff Ride Development Team and Arizona State Forestry we would like to extend a formal invitation to participate in the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride. Foremost, we would never presume to understand or take for granted your emotions over the last 31 months. This product is a true legacy of your loved one that will educate firefighters across the nation and put them in the shoes and decision making process’ of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Attached to this email is a document that explains what a “Staff Ride” is. The Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride was developed in cooperation with some of the best in the industry. U.S. Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, National Park Service, National Wildlife Service to name a few. We conducted an “Alpha Test” with 22 highly esteemed personnel from across the nation to solicit their input last week. Their recommendations have now been incorporated.
We are now requesting your input for our “Bravo Test” on April 4-5, 2016. Your involvement in this family only day and your subsequent input will help keep us on tract to deliver the high caliber learning product this has become. Due to limited space and logistical issues, we must limit this invitation to immediate family members (spouses, parents, single parents and significant others) in close relationships to the fallen Granite Mountain Hotshots. Spouses, separated parents and significant others have the option to bring one family support person of their choosing. The staff ride was designed for a target audience of 40 people. As you can imagine, I am sure I have left some out of this invitation due to challenges with updated contact information provided. Please forward this email to those family members I don’t have information on.
Schedule
April 4, 2016: Travel to Prescott AZ, Icebreaker @ 1700-2100 hrs. (Location TBD).
April 5, 2016: Staff Ride 0700-2200 hrs. (Approx.); bring lunch, Integration upon return to Prescott at local restaurant.
April 6, 2016: Return travel.
A block of hotel rooms have been reserved. No action is necessary for hotel reservations except for you to provide payment upon check-in.
SpringHill Suites (A Marriott property)
Block reservation name: “Staff Ride”
200 E Sheldon St, Prescott, AZ 86301
(928) 776-0998
The physical challenges that exist with the entire staff ride are rated arduous by Wildland Fire standards. It is a 4.3 mile hike with a 837’ elevation gain starting at 4,868’ elevation. With this in mind, we wish for ALL of you to participate by any means possible. Therefore we have formatted a delivery method for you that should meet varied levels of physical ability.
Light Group: This group will walk approximately 1 mile total over relatively flat terrain with a few 2’ washes to traverse.
Moderate Group: This group will walk approximately 3 miles over relatively flat terrain with a few washes to traverse.
Arduous Group: This group will walk the entire 4.3 miles following the true path of Granite Mountain. No established trails are yet in place for the later half of this path.
As this is a learning product vs a site visit, there are rather strict time constraints revolving around meeting all the objectives of the staff ride. Please be honest with yourself before you choose your level of involvement.
We have established a high caliber group of Conference Group Leaders along with the Subject Matter Experts that were there to present these staff rides and they will be available throughout the process. At pre-identified locations, the Subject Matter Experts insert themselves to discuss the challenges being faced and answer questions.
Please respond to the “Doodle Poll” at the link below at your earliest convenience. Please place your relationship, to whom, in the comments section of the Doodle Poll. We are limiting this particular event to family members only.
http://doodle.com/poll/dw6bwrbhdm83xbi2
Don Boursier
Safety and Logistics Officer
Arizona State Forestry
2901 West Pinnacle Peak Rd.
Phoenix, AZ 85027
Cell: (602) 509-4333
[email protected]
——————————————————————————————-
Reply to ‘gizmo’ post on April 13, 2016 at 7:27 am
>> On April 13, 2016 at 7:27 am, gizmo said…
>>
>> If you know Marcia McKee go ask her if RTS left her high and dry on
>> the line to continue on with the mission of the staff ride. Ask her if that
>> was the “family support” she needed at the time, to be left and force
>> others to console and care for her safety. Is that the definition of family support?
>>
>> Thank you, gizmo
>> On April 13, 2016 at 10:56 am, Bob Powers replied ( to gizmo )…
>>
>> First hand I have already talked to her and she was very satisfied with
>> the support that RTS gave her during the Staff Ride. The rest is none of
>> your business.
>> Your factual knowledge is pure BS.
>> My personal knowledge is from the people involved.
>> Quit spreading lies and rumors.
Question asked… question answered.
Or more like… ‘rumor’ started… ‘rumor’ stopped.
The Beta ‘Staff Ride’ is now over… and it is obviously no secret ( now ) that yes, Marcia McKee CHOSE RTS as the person that SHE wanted to accompany her for that Staff Ride.
What gizmo doesn’t seem to understand is what Gary Olson has already fully explained down below.
Marcia McKee (first) contacted Gary Olson DIRECTLY and first asked HIM to be her ‘support’ person… because she doesn’t trust the ‘Prescott Cabal’ or ‘Arizona Forestry’ as far as she can throw a buick. She wanted someone with her whose knowledge of Wildland Firefighting and Hotshot Culture is beyond impeccable… but who also knows that the original SAIT investigation now qualifies as the greatest ‘whitewash’ and ‘coverup’ in the history of Wildland Firefighting.
She also ( and this is the important/relevant part ), specifically wanted someone to accompany her who would know what important QUESTIONS TO ASK ( in addition to the ones she already had herself ) if/when the opportunity arose during this ‘Staff Ride’.
QUESTIONS that might ( just might ) have a chance of being ‘answered’, especially if certain individuals who are most likely to HAVE the ‘answers’ were going to be physically PRESENT during the ‘Staff Ride’ and ( supposedly ) REQUIRED to answer any questions coming from the ‘participants’ of the ‘Staff Ride’.
She ( Marcia ) KNEW that Gary Olson is/was ‘that person’… which is why she reached out and was exercising HER right, as a family member, to have anyone of HER CHOOSING accompany her on this ‘Staff Ride for family members’.
But ( as Gary already explained down below ), as much as he WANTED to help this one family member who has continually been treated VERY badly by the agencies that purport to have been ‘helping’ the ‘family members’… Gary decided his actual presence on the ‘Beta Staff Ride’ might be more of a ‘distraction’ than a ‘help’ to Marcia.
Keyphrase: “To Marcia”.
The bottom line throughout all of this was to just make sure that Marcia McKee got the help that she, herself, was reaching out for… and that this one chance she was going to get to have her own ‘questions’ answered about why her son ended up dead on the floor of that fuel-filled blind box canyon had the best chance for fulfillment.
To that end ( to make sure that this family member who was ‘reaching out’ got the help SHE was REQUESTING )… Gary Olson himself saw to it that a good ‘alternate’ received the ‘invitation’ instead.
Someone ELSE with an amazing background in Widlland Firefighting… who already knows the SAIR was a total ‘whitewash’… and who would know what the ‘important’ questions to ask are even beyond the ones Marcia already had, if the opportunity arose to ASK those ‘questions’.
That turned out to be RTS.
He is THERE, in the area, and was able and willing to replace Gary Olson.
Gary then made sure that RTS and Marcia McKee were in contact with each other, and that Marcia was okay with RTS as his ‘alternate’ ( because the bottom line here continued to be just making sure Marcia was getting the help SHE was reaching out for ).
Marcia McKee herself expressed her ‘disappointment’ about Gary’s decision to not accompany her… but she understood his well-thought-out reasons for declining… and after communicating with RTS just to make SURE that SHE ( herself ) felt he would be a good ‘alternate’, it was agreed by all parties that RTS would accompany Marcia on the ‘family members Staff Ride’.
Was there some ‘expectation’ during all this that whatever might transpire during this ‘Staff Ride’ ( including question / answers, if possible… and what the SMEs are actually SAYING ‘out there’ ) would then ‘surface’ following the event?
You damn betcha.
But at NO TIME during this attempt to assist the mother of one of the deceased hotshots who has, all in all, been treated VERY bady by the Prescott Cabal AND Arizona Forestry AND this mysterious ‘Arizona 100 Club’ was that any kind of ‘priority’ for anyone involved.
The ‘mission’ ( your word up above ) was to just make sure Marcia McKee got the help that SHE, herself, was requesting.
And ( as Bob Powers has now confirmed )… that ‘mission’ appears to have been a success.
Marcia McKee is a strong and determined woman.
She was the FIRST of the family members to file a ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit on behalf of her son and her best friend, Grant McKee… and she continues to seek the TRUTH about why she had to say goodbye to him far too soon.
She KNEW that the ‘Staff Ride’ was going to be a very ’emotional’ experience, but that was NOT the kind of ‘support’ she was even expecting as she reached out for a ‘support person’.
It was VERY important to her to have all the right QUESTIONS asked/answered, if there was any real opportunity for that to happen.
So it is VERY likely that even if she became overwhelmed with emotion DURING the ‘Staff Ride’… that she, herself, would have insisted that RTS continue the ‘tour’ on her behalf.
It would, of course, still be NICE to know what all those SMEs on this Staff Ride are actually SAYING ‘out there’… and whether they are just (still) ‘bullshitting’ not only family members… but anyone else who ‘participates’ in these ‘Staff Rides’…
…but as far as simply making sure at least one family member who has been, overall, treated very badly got what SHE was requesting… that appears to be…
“mission accomplished”.
Any questions?
Just to add— Marcia McKee also stated that RTS was a big help to her and an Absolute Gentleman. What ever else RTS was there for Marcia was his first and foremost responsibility.
He evidently did an outstanding job. There’s more but its personal.
After this last week I will be surprised if RTS comes back on here. That will be up to him.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 13, 2016 at 1:48 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Just to add— Marcia McKee also stated that RTS was a big help
>> to her and an Absolute Gentleman. What ever else RTS was there
>> for Marcia was his first and foremost responsibility.
>> He evidently did an outstanding job. There’s more but its personal.
Then he is to be commended… especially since he was apparently ‘greeted’ by the Prescott Cabal and Arizona Forestry with a big, fat, open-minded and friendly “What the FUCK are YOU doing here?” greeting when he first arrived to accompany Marcia.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> After this last week I will be surprised if RTS comes back on here.
>> That will be up to him.
As I mentioned below… there were absolutely NO QUERIES aimed at RTS with regards to this ‘Staff Ride’ until he, himself, chose to publicly post that he had attended it.
That’s when I started ( of course ) ‘asking some questions’.
He DID seem like he was willing to talk about the experience… at first… and he graciously DID answer some important questions… at first… but then he obviously drew the line about saying what ‘questions’ were being asked ‘out there’ or what ‘responses’ were being given.
The bottom line here is that now that RTS has been an ‘official participant’ in this ‘Beta’ Staff Ride… Don Boursier and Arizona Forestry and the OMNA International company are actually pretty much REQUIRED ( by the terms of the legal settlement ) to at least accept some written input/critique from him.
I hope he avails himself of that opportunity.
Someone with 26 years of experience as a Type 1 Hotshot Superintendent damn well DESERVES to give them some ‘input’ on this ‘product’.
I think you were paying attention to what Gizmo was saying.
I do not think some of the people there are interested in RTS’s input.
Many are the same locals and overhead who seem to want to stop any exchange or discussion on Yarnell Hill and The Granit Mountain Hot Shots.
I think some are at odds with the organization of the Staff Ride.
Gizmo purity well stated it down below. They did nothing wrong and died.
We are here to Bash their name and distort the facts,
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 13, 2016 at 2:56 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I do not think some of the people there are interested
>> in RTS’s input. Many are the same locals and overhead
>> who seem to want to stop any exchange or discussion
>> on Yarnell Hill and The Granit Mountain Hot Shots.
I think you are right… but much to their chagrin ( I’m sure ), the “Prescott Cabal” isn’t in charge of ‘developing’ the court-mandated ‘Staff Ride’.
Let’s forget what even the ‘legal settlement’ of at least 12 multi, multi, multi MILLION dollar ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits said for a moment.
Let’s just look at what Arizona Forestry’s Don Boursier ( who was HIRED to help them work through their obligations as a result of the settlement ) said DIRECTLY to the ‘family members’ when he invited them ( and the ‘support person’ of their OWN choosing ) to last week’s ‘Staff Ride’…
From Don Boursier’s official ‘invitation’ sent to all family members….
————————————————————————-
We are now requesting your input for our “Bravo Test” on April 4-5, 2016. Your involvement in this family only day and your subsequent input will help keep us on tract to deliver the high caliber learning product this has become.
————————————————————————-
I do not know if RTS also agreed to work with Marcia and submit their mutual ‘input’, as requested to do by Don Boursier himself… but he certainly COULD/SHOULD do that.
This is RTS’s chance to go ‘on the record’ and tell THEM ( not us ) what he thinks of their ‘Staff Ride’… and I hope he does that.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I think some are at odds with the organization of the Staff Ride.
That’s tough shit.
The settlement agreement requires the development of a ‘National Level’ product that is destined to reside on the ‘National Level’ Wildfire Lessons Learned site.
The ‘Prescott Cabal’ can ‘disagree with the organization of the Staff Ride all they want.
For once ( in this whole saga )… THEY are not ‘running the show’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Gizmo purity well stated it down below. They did nothing
>> wrong and died.
>> We are here to Bash their name and distort the facts,
Well… if gizmo is carrying the banner of…
Nothing to see ( or learn ) here. Move along. Move along.
He’s about to find out that around here… it’s more like…
There is PLENTY to see ( and learn ) here. Gather ’round. Gather ’round.
This goes along with what some have said (Joanna Dodder, Marsh, Holly, et. al.) We don’t go on that site –malarkey to their way of thinking—anything that goes against their hopes to paint this thing as an unavoidable accident that had no possibility of accountability involved.
RTS… Hope to see you back…let this part work itself out…
Gizmo fully understood what Gary explained below but thanks for the recap and I do have questions. You said “So it is VERY likely that even if she became overwhelmed with emotion DURING the ‘Staff Ride’… that she, herself, would have insisted that RTS continue the ‘tour’ on her behalf.” Do you know that for certain? After Gary’s post about sending a snitch/expert in with the families is what I didn’t care for especially with said person particulary disliking one of the GM. My point has been that a bashing delivery of information about GM is counterproductive and doesn’t create learning for firefighters. After reading this site for years, this RTS persons stance has been appearing to be from the human factors side of things but really is hard line 10&18 old school. Like I said downstream that firefighters on all sorts of fires can have all the boxes checked and still get killed, this will always happen until the end of time.
I also wonder what sorts of questions were passed on to McKee too and of course the answers from the cadre that we will never know. But didn’t I read here that you gave a comprehensive list of questions to ask? Will you share? I also hope the mission was accomplished for McKee, and for what it’s worth building a staff ride from scrap must not be an easy task, like it’s a working document forever. Do you believe the April staff ride guide you refer to was the one used at the Beta Staff Ride? The one that John D received from the State? I’ve seen it and would not be surprised if there was another version out there we haven’t seen, just saying. And because Bob says he spoke to someone doesn’t mean I am required to believe his rumors and for the record I don’t.
thank you, gizmo
Gizmo
I just told you above and I know it for certain Marcia wanted RTS to be there and ask questions that she could not.
Now we are back to the 10 and 18 are old school (Hillbilly)? You have to be from Prescott.
The last I have read and discussed with current HS Crews the 10 and 18 is still primary and is taught that way.
What GM person did said person (RTS) dislike?
No one has ever said on here that they disliked any of the GM Crew.
Ill ask you again what fires where fire fighters followed all the rules (10& 18) were they killed?
Reply to gizmo post on April 13, 2016 at 2:54 pm
>> gizmo said…
>>
>> You said “So it is VERY likely that even if she became overwhelmed
>> with emotion DURING the ‘Staff Ride’… that she, herself, would have
>> insisted that RTS continue the ‘tour’ on her behalf.”
>>
>> Do you know that for certain?
No.
I also don’t know if Marcia ( or anyone else ) actually DID become ‘overwhelmed with emotion’ during the Staff Ride. I think that ‘claim’ is only coming from YOU, at the moment, correct?
All I know is that since it was specifically VERY important to Marcia McKee to have someone with her to help her ask her OWN questions during the Staff Ride AND to ask important questions that even she hadn’t thought of… that it’s very likely she would have WANTED her ‘support person’ to continue the ‘tour’ and (perhaps) get answers to those questions even if she felt unable to do so.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> After Gary’s post about sending a snitch/expert in with the
>> families is what I didn’t care for especially with said person
>> particulary disliking one of the GM. My point has been that a
>> bashing delivery of information about GM is counterproductive
>> and doesn’t create learning for firefighters.
The official ‘product’ that is SUPPOSED to create ‘learning for fireghters’ for years and years to come is what is actually ‘under development’ right now… and is the focus of the conversation at this very moment….
…but even the ‘Staff Ride Guide’ says that ONLY sources of ‘information’ that need to be studied in order to understand what happened on June 30, 2013 are as follows…
1. The original Arizona Forestry contracted SAIT investigation report ( Conclusion: No one did anything wrong. Zero. Zip. Nada. Nothing to see here. Move along ).
** AND *
2. Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”.
That’s it.
NO requirement to even read the ADOSH report… which found so much active negligence taking place in that workplace that they levied historic fines and the absolute maximum penalties allowed by law… OR any requirement to be familiar with ANY of the independent research that has taken place since the SAIR was published.
How’s that for being (quote) “counterproductive and doesn’t create learning for firefighters.”?
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> After reading this site for years, this RTS persons stance has
>> been appearing to be from the human factors side of things
>> but really is hard line 10&18 old school. Like I said downstream
>> that firefighters on all sorts of fires can have all the boxes
>> checked and still get killed, this will always happen until the
>> end of time.
Interesting that you, yourself, just used the word ‘old school’.
Do YOU teach any classes there at the AWIMA out at Emery Riddle?
You also keep repeating this “You can have LCES and 10&18 in place and still get killed” thing without answering the question of WHEN, since those hard-wrought rules were first put in place, has that EVER actually happened?
Name a fire.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> I also wonder what sorts of questions were passed on to McKee too
>> and of course the answers from the cadre that we will never know.
>> But didn’t I read here that you gave a comprehensive list of
>> questions to ask? Will you share?
In the end… there were no ‘questions’ that needed to be ‘supplied’ to RTS that he wasn’t already fully aware could be asked, if the opportunity presented itself.
My contribution was to make sure he understood that there were at least 3 known SME ‘presenters’ who were utilized for the ‘Alpha’ Staff Ride that were also very likely to be physically present at last week’s ‘Beta’ Staff Ride.
Darrell Willis – being allowed to be the SME ‘presenter’ at ‘Stand 5 – The Deployment Site’, just as he was allowed to be the ‘presenter’ at the very first press conference held at that same deployment site on July 23, 2013. The one where he eschewed his military-wannabeen opinion that they all “DIED with HONOR because none of them ran or tried to save themselves”… and where he also eschewed his preacher-wannabee opinion that the official explanation for why there ended up 19 bodies on the floor of a fuel-filled box canyon is because “God must have had a different plan for them”.
OPS Paul Musser – Not certain which ‘Stands’ he was being utilized for.
‘Bravo 33’ right-seater John Burfiend – Also not known where he was to be used as a presenter but it was known that he was present at Stand 5 for the Alpha ‘test’… and he became ‘visibly upset’ at the point where they decided to play the orignal Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd’s ‘Helmet Cam’… capturing the final radio exchange with Granite Mountain.
So given the time constraints of the ‘Ride’ itself… it was perfectly obvious there would be no time for ‘a million questions’… and that if the opportunity arose…. the BEST questions to ask would be the ones that could most likely be answered by those SMEs who were then going to be ‘physically present’ and (supposedly) REQUIRED to answer ‘questions’.
I do NOT know if those SMEs were ever asked any direct questions at all, by ANY ‘family member’. I hope they WERE…. and I hope the family members got actual ‘answers’.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> I also hope the mission was accomplished for McKee, and for
>> what it’s worth building a staff ride from scrap must not be an
>> easy task, like it’s a working document forever. Do you believe
>> the April staff ride guide you refer to was the one used at the
>> Beta Staff Ride? The one that John D received from the State?
Yes. The emails and criticisms and suggestions that followed the February/Alpha Staff ride proved that the original ‘Guide’ was, in fact, the one used for that ‘Staff Ride’… so there is no reason to believe that the April/Beta Guide was not the same one used for THAT ‘Beta’ Staff Ride.
BOTH of those ‘Guides’ are available via InvestigativeMEDIA’s latest article published just prior to the ‘Beta’ ride.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> I’ve seen it and would not be surprised if there was another
>> version out there we haven’t seen, just saying.
What Arizona Forestry is still saying is that there are no ‘scripts’ for the SMEs.
That everything that the SMEs are saying ‘out there’ ( after two complete test runs of the ‘Staff Ride’ ) is just somehow being pulled from the thin and that there are no ‘documents’ associated with all that ‘presenting’ going on out there.
I think that is bullshit.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> And because Bob says he spoke to someone doesn’t mean I am
>> required to believe his rumors and for the record I don’t.
Fair enough.
For what it’s worth… I don’t believe anything YOU have ‘reported’ so far, either.
That’s sort of how it goes around here.
Trust gets EARNED… not GRANTED.
WTKTT you asked me to explain this statement I made: You also keep repeating this “You can have LCES and 10&18 in place and still get killed” thing without answering the question of WHEN, since those hard-wrought rules were first put in place, has that EVER actually happened?
Name a fire.
All fires. Because fire isn’t static but dynamic and I know you can understand that. Hard rules aren’t dynamic or adapt with the fire environment, so something that was checked off a second before may not be applicable to the current fire environment which is now, not a second ago. A person can have all those boxes checked and due to a number of reasons like past experience, slides in the brain that are not solidified but loose, or simply fire behavior… they can still get in a close call/near miss or get killed. If a firefighter believes they can get from point a to point b in a certain time period and they refer to their ‘slides’ in their memory and then that doesn’t match up to reality, that’s when bad things can happen. Why do you think more and more firefighters are quoted saying ‘I’ve never seen a fire do that’ or ‘I didn’t know fire could do that’…the past experiences don’t match to current or expected fire behavior and it’s impossible for them to understand fires full capabilities. And as much as I do dislike saying this, the prior bad decisions with good outcomes falls into this same line of thinking. If somebody gets away with a behavior and they refer to that slide when making a decision, that can lead to bad things as well. So if a firefighter has the boxes checked and they refer back to that ‘one time they did that and it worked’, right or wrong, if it doesn’t match to the dynamic fire environment then they’re screwed.
I am NOT saying the 10&18/LCES/Common Denominators are to be ignored but merely recognized by firefighters that adaptability and updating to them needs to happen. Complex transition fires are the norm and this is when firefighters are the most vulnerable and reference to past experiences is not equal to all.
Also, my use of the word old school is because I’m old school, I’m just old. To imply old school and hillbilly are the same is ludicrous and doesn’t mean that I am the same as Brendan.
First and for most if you are old school then you were educated in the 10 standard orders.
Fire dose not change I a second. Fires are predictable. If you are on top of the Suppression effort your plan will follow the 10 Standard orders and you will have built that safety to work with the fire.
If Fire fighters get in a close call near miss or get killed then they were doing something wrong. It just dose not happen out of the blue.
All the predictors are there if you plan ahead and use them.
I am still saying name a fire. All fires is not a answer. All fires where people have been killed, injured or trapped can be easily identified with the 10 standard orders. and the failure to use them.
I am old school because I started in 1961 5 years after the Ten Standard Orders were created. I was trained with the TSO’s and I trained people for 34 years to always follow them. I used them every fire and I can say I was on over 1000 fires in my carrier. Was never in a position to need a Fire shelter. I was never in a Burn over. My safety zones were always the black. I was red carded from Crew Boss to Type 2 IC all the jobs in between. I have been in some of the most dynamic Southern California Fires any one has ever seen. The 10 & 13 kept me my men and my crews safe. I know a lot of FF and Crews who did the same so the orders work and still work today.
The crews I know here in Idaho one I am still in touch with Train and use the 10 & 18 they have been in existence since 1967. They have never deployed and never been burned over.
There are a hundred HS Crews working now on a average the see 30,000 fires in a 10 year period. Every on average twenty years we lose half a HS Crew. The Loop Fire, The South Canyon Fire and the Yarnell Hill Fire. Every single one is tied to the Failure to follow the 1o and 18.
Had each one followed the rules they would be here to day. they all had the time to heed the warnings and follow the rules that would have kept them alive.
Gizmo I would like to add that I am interested in your Ideas on the 10 &18 its sometimes hard to get that across on here verses in person discussions.
What would you use different than the Ten Standard Orders?
I understand your concerns about transition fires I have been on a few.
One set of fires was The yellow stone complex in 1984. As well as a number of Fires in the 60’s and 70’s some were urban interface.
In the early to mid 70’s Region 4,3,and 5 had a good drought run.
Increased awareness has always been key to Safety. I never took any thing for granted.
I totally believe in the current conditions. All fires should be fought with one foot in the burn your safety zone is next to you always.
Following the 10 then becomes easer and safer.
Reply to gizmo post on April 14, 2016 at 11:10 am
>> gizmo said…
>>
>> WTKTT you asked me to explain this statement I made:
>> You also keep repeating this “You can have LCES and
>> 10&18 in place and still get killed” thing without answering
>> the question of WHEN, since those hard-wrought rules
>> were first put in place, has that EVER actually
>> happened? Name a fire.
>>
>> All fires.
>> Because fire isn’t static but dynamic and I know
>> you can understand that.
First and foremost… thanks for taking the time to reply.
Secondly… yes… I do understand that ‘fire isn’t static but dynamic’.
But ( as Gary Olson has pointed out many, many times )… fire can’t ‘think’.
Static OR Dynamic… it ( unlike humans ) MUST follow the rules of physics… so ( theoretically ) we always have the advantage.
If you ( not YOU specifically, but the generic YOU ) call yourself a professional ‘wildland fireghter’, then it stands to reason you are SUPPOSED to be an ‘expert’ in ( guess what? ) How ‘Fire’ behaves ( and CAN behave ) in the ‘Wildland’.
And that INCLUDES ‘extreme fire behavior’. ALL kinds.
If someone is letting you ( again, the generic YOU ) out on a Wildland Fireline and putting you in charge of others with regards to ‘hiking decisions’ anywhere close to any ‘dynamic fireline’… and you are NOT an ‘expert’ in what a ‘dynamic fire’ CAN ( potentially ) do or become… and in what timeframes… you really have no business being out there doing that.
And as one of the persons paying your salary… I ( me, personally ) do not WANT you ‘out there’ making those decisions unless you HAVE been sufficiently trained to keep the people who in are your charge ALIVE ‘out there’.
So what I am saying is that MOST of what you are saying now just comes down to ‘training’ issues.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> A person can have all those boxes checked and due
>> to a number of reasons like past experience, slides in
>> the brain that are not solidified but loose, or simply fire
>> behavior… they can still get in a close call/near miss
>> or get killed.
It sounds like you are trying to ‘defend’ someone ( anyone ) who might *think* they have ( in your words ) “all the boxes checked”… but they end up getting themselves and the people they are in charge of fried to a crisp, anyway.
You can’t just *think* you have your “boxes checked”… and then end up being so wrong that you kill yourself and others. That’s the mark of an ‘amateur’.
A PROFESSIONAL would never just be ‘thinking’… “I’m pretty sure I have my ‘boxes checked’… so let’s take a long walk in that unburned fuel. Everything SHOULD be ok ( I think )”. A PROFESSIONAL would make SURE that LCES and the 10&18 are being FULLY adhered to and would never just be ‘guessing’ about it.
Interesting phrase you use to describe this imaginary person who ‘has all his/her boxes checked’ but “can still get in a close call/near miss or get killed”.
Description: “slides in the brain that are not solidified but loose”.
That’s a great way to describe someone who…
“Thinks they know what they need to know but really doesn’t”.
Again… the mark of a true ‘amateur’ and not a PROFESSIONAL.
>> gizmo also says…
>>
>> If a firefighter believes they can get from point a to
>> point b in a certain time period and they refer to their
>> ‘slides’ in their memory and then that doesn’t
>> match up to reality, that’s when bad things can happen.
Yep. And that is called “TOTAL FAIL”.
You have FAILED to have the right situational awareness and/or experience to make the decisions you are making.
Could be bad training, could be just total hubris… or you might just be a plain old vanilla idiot who is being allowed ( by other idiots ) to make important decisions.
The ‘bad training’ part is easily fixable. The other stuff… harder.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Why do you think more and more firefighters are quoted
>> saying ‘I’ve never seen a fire do that’ or ‘I didn’t know fire
>> could do that’…the past experiences don’t match to current
>> or expected fire behavior and it’s impossible for them
>> to understand fires full capabilities.
Are you even listening to yourself?
You are basically describing ( and trying to DEFEND? ) “Fuck Ups”.
I’ve you are such an amateur that it is “impossible for you to understand fires full capabilities”… then who signed your ‘Red Card’ and what the fuck are you doing out there “playing fireman”?
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> And as much as I do dislike saying this, the prior bad
>> decisions with good outcomes falls into this same line
>> of thinking. If somebody gets away with a behavior and
>> they refer to that slide when making a decision, that can
>> lead to bad things as well.
>>
>> So if a firefighter has the boxes checked and they refer
>> back to that ‘one time they did that and it worked’, right
>> or wrong, if it doesn’t match to the dynamic
>> fire environment then they’re screwed.
Total agreement on this one ( and if RTS is still reading I’m sure he’s smiling ).
Yes. There IS ( and has ALWAYS been ) evidence that Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and the rest of Granite Mountain were used to ‘pushing the envelope’… and others have said they KNEW that Granite Mountain was simply ‘an accident waiting to happen’.
There have been long discussions about this on this very forum.
And this is not ‘bashing’. If the stories are all true… then it is a FACT that there was this organization running around out there accepting fire assignments and a LOT of people KNEW they were just “an accident waiting to happen”… but there weren’t sufficient ‘peer review’ mechanisms or channels in the WFF industry to PREVENT that ‘accident’ from happening. There SHOULD have been.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> I am NOT saying the 10&18/LCES/Common Denominators
>> are to be ignored but merely recognized by firefighters that
>> adaptability and updating to them needs to happen.
I’m not 100 percent what you meant by that… but if your reference to ‘updating’ means ‘continuously reevaluating as conditions change’… then YES… that is ALREADY ( supposed ) to be totally 100 percent obvious to anyone who was ever taught anything about LCES and the 10&18.
Just one example…
From the Firewise Online Learning Center…
Firefighter Safety in the WUI
http://learningcenter.firewise.org/Firefighter-Safety/3-4.php
———————————————————————
Recipe for Survival: L+C+E+S
LCES is a safety planning concept that should be part of any fire action plan. It focuses attention on the following four considerations for safer operations:
L = Lookout
C = Communications
E = Escape Route
S = Safety Zone
The LCES system enhances and focuses the Ten Standard Fire Orders, the 18 Situations That Shout Watch Out, and other safety aids for wildland firefighters. Structural firefighters operating at wildland/urban interface fires must be aware of the same concepts.
In order for LCES to be useful enough to be efficient and flexible enough to be effective, the concept is built on two basic guidelines:”
1. Before safety is threatened, each firefighters must know the LCES system will be used.
2. LCES must be continuously reevaluated as fire conditions change.
——————————————————————
Key point: “LCES must be continuously reevaluated as fire conditions change”.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Complex transition fires are the norm and this is when
>> firefighters are the most vulnerable and reference to
>> past experiences is not equal to all.
All the more reason to be SUPER-VIGILANT ( at times like that ) regarding your own safety and those who you are charged with ‘bringing home safely’.
If your ‘slides’ or ‘references to past experience’ aren’t good enough for the situation you find yourself in… the worst thing you can do is then PRETEND you are some fucking “know it all” or to then “think” you “have all your boxes checked”.
Hubris kills. It’s been documented already. Read the history of past fatality fires.
>> gizom also said…
>>
>> Also, my use of the word old school is because I’m old
>> school, I’m just old. To imply old school and hillbilly are
>> the same is ludicrous and doesn’t mean that I am the
>> same as Brendan.
Well… now that you have typed some more… I can see that you DO understand that the 10&18 and LCES aren’t just a bumper sticker that you can chose to ignore.
This ‘forum’ format is an imperfect medium… and sometimes it takes a lot of back-and-forth just to even be SURE what someone actually meant by something they typed. It happens a lot around here.
I think I really DO ‘understand’ the ‘point’ you have been trying to make with your original “Doesn’t anyone realize you can have all your boxes checked and still get killed?” statement.
You are basically trying to say that “You can *think* you have all your shit together, and you can *think* you have imagined all the shit that can happen… but sometimes ever greater shit happens than all the shit you were even capable of thinking of”.
Well… that still sounds to me like an ‘amateurish’ thinking.
If you are in a WORKPLACE situation… and you are in charge of other people’s LIVES… and you are the one who has ‘Red Cards’ in your pocket that says you are SUPPOSED to be able to imagine ‘all the shit that could happen’, but lots of your workers DIE because you either didn’t ‘imagine all the shit that could happen which others were capable of doing’… OR… you get people killed because some shit happened that ANYONE who calls themselves a ‘supervisor’ SHOULD have been able to ‘imagine’…
…the LEGAL SYSTEM has a word for that.
It’s called NEGLIGENCE.
Sometimes… it’s called “GROSS NEGLIGENCE”
And sometimes it’s even called “GROSS NEGLIGENCE WITH DEPRAVED INDIFFERENCE”.
The latter being… you really DID know you were about to subject people in your charge to a situation that *could* easily result in injury or death… but you did it anyway.
And all the evidence we have so far with regards to what happened in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013, points to that ‘latter’ defintion of what took place.
Even ADOSH found that to be the case. They determined that WORKPLACE was absolutely FULL of “Gross Negligence”… and they levied Historic fines and penalties.
As MUCH as they were allowed to… according to Arizona State law.
Gizmo,
If what you are saying happened to Mrs. McKee is even close to the truth than I owe everyone an apology for even trying such a stunt. In fact, since it obviously did not go well no matter how you evaluate it, so let’s just say that I do owe everyone an apology, therefore;
“I sincerely apologize to everyone for agreeing to send RTS to the staff ride as a support person with the secondary objective to evaluate the staff ride for accuracy and completeness, in addition to ascertaining if any additional facts that were previously unknown to us were presented by the subject matter experts or others in attendance at the staff ride as support staff. Furthermore, I would once again like to state that my use of the term snitch to describe RTS’s purpose for attending the staff ride was not only over-the-top hyperbole, which I am prone to use because I am in fact…a bad person. The word snitch was not only a completely inaccurate way to describe the purpose of RTS’S presence at the staff ride, it was wrong to use it in such a careless and callous manner, especially since the primary purpose for his being there was in fact accurately described at the beginning of this apology with special emphasis on being there to act as a true family support person.
Bob, I assured Rocksteady that I was going to move past our differences regarding RTS but I would like to suggest that perhaps you could let RTS defend himself, he has proven himself to more than capable of doing that on several occasions in the past on this thread when he and I have disagreed on almost everything.
Joy, Bless your heart, I just don’t think you understand what my problem is with RTS not contacting me after the staff ride, so here is a quick run down just for you. I spent several weeks and numerous emails with numerous people arranging for RTS to attend the staff ride as a family support person in my place. I didn’t even know if the person he was there to support made it to the staff ride and in fact, she was NOT there the night before to attend the mixer so RTS go kicked out of it or at least could not attend it. She actually made it to the staff ride (flying in from another state) 15 MINUTES before they departed for the day. NOW …I don’t think that having RTS send me a courtesy email and notifying that the person he was there to support did in fact make it, and he did in fact go on the staff ride and everything went more or less OK would have been asking TOO much. And with all due respect to you and everyone else on this blog, I don’t think that you and I fall into the same category and I should have been left waiting with you for as long as it took RTS to feel like notifying me that everything went OK. For one thing, YOU didn’t even know you were waiting to be notified of anything, so you weren’t actually even waiting to here how things went….now were you? Now Bob felt OK because RTS and he did talk and so Bob knew, but I didn’t. NOW…let me explain the biggest difference between YOU, BOB and ME. Neither YOU nor BOB had anything to do with it….did you? It is no skin off your nose because if it all went to shit..;.which it in fact…it did. So neither YOU nor BOB owe anyone an apology to everyone now do you? You weren’t involved were you? It really was none of YOUR business OR Bob’s business now was it? You didn’t need to know, except after the fact when and if the results of this effort were going to be presented on this thread…right? Neither YOU nor BOB had any skin in the game…did you? And in fact since Sergeant Shultz did not appear to learn anything at the staff ride that will help us or anyone else find out why 19 elite (and yes WTKTT and JD,, they as elite as any hotshot crew out there, the truth is YOU people don’t invest the money to make them any more elite, so whatever they were lacking…every fucking hotshot crew I ever worked on, which was 10 of them, was lacking) wildland firefighters were burned alive in a fire everybody should have gone home from, you wouldn’t have ever heard anything about it at all because none of this is necessary except now I am trying to explain to Gizmo just what the fuck a snitch was doing at a family staff ride, and at this point….I’m not sure myself any longer either. And as on a side note. I specialized in planning and coordinating complex interagency undercover operations and I thought I had explained my last fuck up and walked away about 10 years ago…so what was I thinking? Use an undercover agent to do something that should have been so simple but instead he turned it into a train wreck, someone who does not recognize any authority that is NOT a Battalion Chief or higher….what the fuck WAS I thinking?????????????????? That is all…carry on.
Gary said: Joy, Bless your heart,
thank you Gary- it can use some blessings—thick heart wall I have—I get your position on RTS but it is like this…we are a unit like it or not…we are not a functional dysfunctional unit- we are a unit of diverse people with huge difference in backgrounds and we all come here with the common reason- 19 men died and we want clarity or to share our views on the topic- or to see if anything new is going on or tee it up or vent or just be who we are—I have a gut instinct RTS will do the firefighting community “justice” in the long run on safety matters concerns & in that I am okay with his decision making as long as his journey brings forth “good” safety to current/future firefighters and I have never met or spoke or got any email from him ever unless is RTS the same person we were gonna do that Basecamp place;YHF Collaborative (last Nov. 15′ but my gut thinks that was Sitta not RTS)…and like you said before Gary you are not here to build your Christmas card list…a lot of people here are like that…they just want a freedom place to share or not share or share what they want or can…do you know I have been coughing up blood and I am trying to analyze is it an ulcer or something else…I have not slept good and I am saying what the hell is my body doing to me right now…I usually can shelf the shit but its at the forefront…hard to get a breathe in at times…so I want to talk to you Gary…You and I are straight up direct people but have you ever in “private” asked RTS what you have asked public before your point became public here? I am guilty and have done that to Holly before when I should of done it private so I can get where you are at…been there and done it but it does not make good proper society etiquette to bring forth togetherness or BE BETTER or whatever GOOD way of doing things to life but you and I do not run that way- we say it as we see it or feel it for that moment and we can brush it off our shoulders and be a-ok…be okay with the wrong RTS did to you and the world…he did a wrong in this sense…I was going to go with a loved one and because of corresponding back 2/27/16 and by March 1 2016 I know you did not get a reply but I sure did…and let’s just say because what you said I opted out going and felt RTS would be the proper person too just as you felt I felt the same that RTS is good to go but I also felt he would come back and say a tidbit here and there and not get what you imagined to come from it publicly or private so I am okay with your comments and I do not find them to be tantrums but a man who gave up his spot in hopes for more than what you saw from RTS both private and public…until you are there with the delicate terrain hitting the trails with loved ones some who want every detail and others just there not yet connected to the horrific comprehension of what happened to their loved one…and then these professionals who have to appease a court order and build a staff ride with the understanding some landowners refuse to allow permission and that answered my question about what I saw that 6-30-13 and the flagging before the old grader…I saw what I saw and it did not match the ribbons but now I get it…Sesame area is “off limits” and I never even go near it because when we went with OSHA we saw how serious of a NO TRESPASSING means there as I saw the man treat Bruce and Brett- it was oh my situation— Maughan Ranch will not permit anyone in writing but they have no proper signage or fencing so I think that is why the staff ride does use that area on their land…but out of respect to Helm’s I think that area is respected and avoided…I really think the GMHS would like that ground level to be a personal private space between their loved ones and their community of professional and personal people- that is just my take on it the GMHS—now, I want you to just keep being you and RTS to come back and just be him—there is no bad in either one of you men; both are good men and no need to compare/measure that GOOD MEN to recent actions- I understand your position but I can see RTS position too and let’s be respectful and okay in the journey he embarked on Gary…I am worried about Sonny…that could be why I lean towards possible ulcer…at times I have to spend a good while looking at him (GOOD WHILE) and see if his skeleton body is breathing…he is not the same as I met him…his body is on a level of depleted but gets spurts to build fences or duck pens or move boulders and then he has days to struggle…I am proud of how far he has gone in this aftermath health journey but at times we are both too depleted and those days can be hard because I do not make cowboy coffee…ask Norb…at his place I don’t engage much in his tiny outfit way of things to do…We miss Norb’s presence here. He is a definite forever friend to our lives here and welcome to camp here anytime. I am going to say this- you are trying to justify over and over on RTS and I know we all get it but it will not break down RTS from opening up…
Thank you for understanding why I was disappointed in RTS.
And on a side note, as I have told you and Sonny many times, the first thing you and he should be worrying about is getting better or at least not getting worse.
I am going to scold myself all night long to see if I can make that my last rant….otherwise known as a passionate outburst.
Gary, you make as many comments as you want until your are okay with it—
there is no reason to give a person limitations-
Not sure what you were trying to say above it got confusing for this not so sharp tack.
How ever Mrs. McKee was and I quote very happy with RTS and he was a absolute Gentleman.
As David Turbyfill said the ride was basically the SAIR all over again.
The answers were patented and restated. It was a show me trip.
The story has not changed in two and a half years.
It was the Weather and Communications.
Also see the post from David Turbyfill’s Facebook page up above that now proves the ‘answer’ out on the ‘Staff Ride’ from the SMEs to just about any number of ‘direct questions’ put to them last week was simply…
“I don’t know”.
Exactly Gary–A fire every one should have gone home on as you reported. That is what Morrison and Wooten reported in their professional article now kept in the Yarnell Library for instant reference. It is what BR saw and other wild land crews, and even what an old miner saw from the top of the Weaver’s that day. They had me convinced that the idea was to let that fire go to clean up the Weaver Mountain brush pile–after all our local fire departments did not give a shit about whether it got a head start on them where it could never be controlled. But for their good work they even got a nice Humvee donated to them by the State and according to Dr. Anderson it was likely to keep their mouths shut–well, it certainly could not have been for their lack luster fire control efforts.
I have to help Joy build a pen for the new chicks and ducklings. We have some greedy eyed big black crows on some nearby telephone poles eye balling those little chicks. They are hoping for a quick swoop down for a meal, but that chicken wire will hinder progress.
Lots to read here on IM–thanks for new people coming forward-right or wrong on your opinions–you will at least get some of the finest review of what you write here on IM. You have the best critique from people that have long experience in wild land fire fighting, smoke jumping, running crews and even long time experienced experts on wild land fire fighter deaths. If you can stand the truth bring your ideas here–they will be studied and critiqued by the finest.
I withdraw the apology I just posted below. The way WTKTT describes it, all of my actions and intentions not only can be justified, they all now sound like really fine ideas. It’s no wonder I am so arrogant…damn, I’m good. No…I’m GREAT!
Correction. Apology posted just ABOVE my last comment.
**
** STAFF RIDE STANDS 3A AND 3B
>> On April 12, 2016 at 3:15 pm, Bob Powers asked…
>> What were the Stands ?
>> What was asked and what was discussed?
>> What was at 3B that Joy would like to know?
>> On April 11, 2016 at 7:33 pm, Joy A. Collura said…
>> I know these good men thirst for the same truths and clarity we all do…
>> I just would of liked to know what 3a meant
** THE SHORT STORY
Joy and Bob… I wish I could just tell you which page of the official ‘Yarenll Hill Staff Ride Guide’ clearly states what the fuck Stands 3A and 3B are even SUPPOSED to represent…
…but I can’t.
It actually remains a ‘mystery’.
Even Robert The Second ( RTS ) just recently tried to explain what HE thought ‘Stand 3B’ was supposed to represent following his participation in last week’s ‘Beta’ Staff Ride, but his description of the location bears no resemblance to anything in the official ‘Staff Ride Guide’ for that location as per GPS coordinates AND ‘photographs’ of where ‘Stand 3B’ is supposed to be included in the ‘Staff Ride Guide’ itself.
Whoever ‘authored’ this ‘Staff Ride Guide’ ( OMNA International employees ) appears to remain just as clueless as the original SAIT team was about the difference between where GM was cutting line, where the ‘Lunch Spot’ was… and where the ‘Final Resting Spot’ was where GM had assembled in the ‘safe black’.
That’s why regardless of getting any more information about any questions and/or responses that might have been asked last week… it’s still important to try and find out what the fuck these SMEs are even SAYING to ‘participants’ out there… and whether they were actually actively bullshitting the ‘family members’ about the locations they were even being taken to.
** THE LONG STORY
The page in the ‘Staff Ride Guide’ that talks about ‘Stand 3’ is
PDF page 15 in the February/Alpha ‘Staff Ride Guide’,
PDF page 16 in the April/Beta ‘Staff Ride Guide’.
Despite all the input and criticisms from the participants following the ‘Alpha’ run of the ‘Staff Ride’.. there were only a few ‘changes’ made to this ‘Stand 3’ information page between the February/Alpha Staff Ride Guide ( with the 22 invited ‘Fireman’ ) and the April/Beta Guide.
Both pages retain the same ‘Title’…
Stand 3 – Top of Ridge – “Sensemaking and Communications”
Different Windows – Which Do You Choose?
BOTH versions of the page also had this for the ‘Timing’ section at the top of the page…
——————————————————————————–
Timing: 1130-1230. 20 minute large group session orientation (Stand 3A) followed by 40
minute conference group discussion at lunch spot (Stand 3B) or other location as determined by
conference group leader.
——————————————————————————–
So the authors of this ‘Staff Ride’ ( OMNA International, etc. ) seem to want the participants to believe that ‘Stand 3B’ is the location known as the ‘Lunch Spot’.
They are LYING.
‘Stand 3B’ is nowhere near either the location known as the ‘Lunch Spot’, where GM really did eat lunch that day and Andrew Ashcraft took that photo he texted to his wife, nor is it really anywhere near the location known as the ‘Final Resting Spot’, where Christopher MacKenzie took his two 9 seconds videos and where the men actually departed from the ‘safe black’ on June 30, 2013.
Stand 3B is approximately 254 yards ( 763 feet ) due SOUTHWEST of the actual ‘Lunch Spot’.
For you golfers out there… that’s either a really LONG Par 3, or a very SHORT Par 4.
It’s actually apparent from reading this ‘Staff Ride Guide’ that whoever actually authored it ( The OMNA International employees? ) was/is totally clueless about the same thing the orignal SAIR was clueless about… that the place where GM ate lunch is NOT the place where they gathered in the ‘safe black’ after their ‘tools up’ order and where Christopher MacKenzie would shoot his two 9 second video clips at 3:55 PM… and the place they would ‘depart’ the ‘safe black’ from sometime between 3:56 PM and 4:04 PM.
Robert the Second ( RTS )… who just actually participated in last week’s ‘Beta’ Staff Ride, tried to describe ‘Stand 3B’ this way…
On April 9, 2016 at 1:27 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
———————————————————————————–
I did hike the route that included ALL of the Stands up to Stand 3B,
where the GMHS handline intersected the high ridge (mid-slope) two-track road.
———————————————————————————–
That actually just confuses the issue even MORE… because that point RTS is describing is NEITHER the ‘Lunch Spot’ ( as the Staff Ride guide is trying to say Stand 3B represents ), NOR is the spot RTS himself is now describing actually near the location indicated in the ‘photographs’ in the Staff Ride Guide itself regarding where Stand 3B is supposed to be ( see below ).
The ‘Timing:’ blurb above also doesn’t seem to explain WHY that ‘Stand A’ location was chosen, or what it is supposed to represent… but it is only about 33 feet due north of what they are choosing to call ‘Stand 3B – The Lunch Spot’ ( which is wrong ).
But despite applying the label of ‘Lunch Spot’ to ‘Stand 3B’ ( which is wrong ), and then NOT applying any kind of equivalent representative label to their ‘Stand A’ location… the very next paragraph in the Guide presumes to mandate what is is supposed to be the “Learning themes” for BOTH ‘Stand 3A’ and ‘Stand 3B’…
———————————————————————————————
Learning theme implementation:
3A – Understand the need for continuous evaluation of main effort viability and transition.
Understand the need to take action that makes sense in time and space.
3B – Avoid vague imprecise language in place of clear and succinct communication with
awareness that ideas have consequences (“bump down the road” vs “leave the black”).
———————————————————————————————
So it remains unclear why they think the location they are chosen to call ‘Stand 3A’ represents any kind of appropriate place to discuss ‘evaluation of main effort viability and transition’ ( whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean ) and/or ‘Understand the need to take action that makes sense’.
It also remains unclear why they thing the location they have chosen to call ‘Stand 3B’ would also represent any kind of appropriate place to discuss how the ‘C’ in LCES really doesn’t just mean push a button on a radio and talk… it means that you are REQUIRED to “Communicate CLEARLY and EFFECTIVELY”… at ALL times.
Maybe they really do think these locations they have chose for Stands 3A and 3B really do represent the exact places where Granite Mountain was located at various ‘decision making’ point up there near that anchor point.
If they really do… then that is just more sheer incompetence on display.
There is also this…
PDF page 17 in BOTH the February/Alpha AND the April/Beta
version(s) of the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’
—————————————————————————————
Page Title: Stand 3 – “Sensemaking and Communications”
The only things on THIS particular page of the ‘Staff Ride Guide’ are two photographs. The top one shows the exact location of what they are choosing to call ‘Stand 3A’… and the one on the bottom of the page shows the exact location of what they are choosing to call ‘Stand 3B’.
BOTH of these locations are up there on the high ridge near the ‘anchor point’ where Granite Mountain had been working all day.
Here are the CAPTIONS that accompany each of the photographs, along with the exact GPS coordinates of each location ( which are already printed at the top of each photograph )…
Orienting image: Stand 3A on top of ridge looking South ( and East ) for large group orientation.
GPS printed at top of photo: 34 degrees 13′ 37.3″ N / 112 degrees 47′ 25.9″ W
GPS converted to decimal values: 34.22702777777778, -112.79052777777778
Orienting image: Stand 3B on top of ridge looking East for small group orientation.
GPS printed at top of photo: 34 degrees 13′ 37.0″ N / 112 degrees 47′ 25.8″ W
GPS converted to decimal values: 34.22694444444445, -112.7905
——————————————————————————————
This ‘Stand 3B’ is actually only 33 feet due south of the ‘Stand 3A’ location.
NOTE: That is still exactly where ‘Stand 3B’ was when they conducted the earlier ‘Alpha’ Staff Ride on February 18, 2016. During that ‘Alpha’ Staff Ride… one of the invited ‘participants’ was Aaron Green, an Arizona State Forestry employee. His job title is/was “Flagstaff District Forester / FMO”. This AZF employee Aaron Green is the one who had his own GPS handheld unit ON and RECORDING during the entire February 18 ‘Staff Ride’.
Five days after this ‘Alpha’ Staff Ride took place, participant Aaron Green then sent his entire GPS recording file to Arizona State Forestry employee Don Boursier ( who was hired to help Arizona Forestry put together this court-mandated Staff Ride ) as an attachment to an email he sent to Don Boursier at 3:00 PM on February 23, 2016. He ( Aaron Green ) actually included 2 ‘attachments’ along with that email.
One was entitled “Yarnell Hill Staff Ride map.pdf” ( a standard Adobe PDF file showing that Staff Ridge route ) and the other ‘attachment’ was entitled “Staffride_2.18.20.16.kml” ( A standard Google Earth KML ‘route’ file that can be loaded straight in Google Earth to show all the GPS points and the ‘route’ that the entire Staff Ride had taken ). Both of these ‘attachments’ were then also forwarded as ‘attachments’ to the family members in the emails that Don Boursier would then subsequently send to all of THEM… ‘inviting’ them to attend the April/Beta ‘Staff Ride’.
It’s also worth mentioning that on the ‘Alpha’ Staff Ride that took place on February 18, 2016, the group ALSO stopped up there on the high ridge for a while at a THIRD location… which was exactly here…
34.226954, -112.789323
That is 409 feet ‘south’ of the area where Stands ‘3A’ and ‘3B’ are, along the two-track road, and very near ( if not exactly near ) the place where you and Sonny began that memorial at the place where you last saw Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain.
It is not known whether that third ‘stop’ up there on the high ridge was still included in the recent April/Beta ‘Staff Ride’… but there is no mention of a ‘Stand 3C’ in any of the documentation nor is there a photograph included in the ‘Guide’ taken from that other location.
But NONE of these ‘locations’ ( Stand ‘3A’, Stand ‘3B’, or the other place where they stopped for a while up there on the ‘Alpha’ Staff Ride ) are anywhere NEAR either the location known as the ‘Lunch Spot’ ( where they actually had lunch and where Ashcraft took the photo he texted to his wife ) OR the location known as the ‘Final Resting Spot’… where the men had all gathered in the ‘safe black’ circa 3:50 PM and where Christopher MacKenzie would then shoot his two 9 second videos.
Stands 3A and 3B are approximately 254 yards ( 763 feet ) due SOUTHWEST of the actual ‘Lunch Spot’… and…
Stands 3A and 3B are approximately 94.8 yards ( 284 feet ) due SOUTH of the actual ‘Final Resting Spot’ where MacKenzie shot his two 9 second videos.
It actually remains a ‘mystery’ wwtktt says and there is a reason I am asking-
really there is—
it is not to keep bringing it up-
Sonny always shared on every hike that went to that exact spot that this was a “sample” of the terrain the men faced in the canyon on 6-30-13. It does not add up to anything else but Sonny would walk through the brush there to share how difficult it was to transverse through it so was it to show “fuel” example?
There is as Norb can share to you- a spot where a brush stump is on the path but I can assure you that area before all this fire mess was a trail just very narrow due to overgrowth brush so yes I would like to know one day what it is—
Norb- wasn’t 3b near my original purple ribbons showing the original fire of four tiny bushes on fire?
if so, that is the same general area where the men cut line and Holly Neill also found burnt shrimp of someone’s lunch so the lunch spot could of been a general area from where we saw them at ease to where Holly found the shrimp-
Page Title: Stand 3 – “Sensemaking and Communications”
so we can say this…RTS…when you passed our “19” and rock pile where we saw the men; the hikers and kept going up Weavers and curve to right and than you reach the area the men were at ease in my photos than go around that curve to the area they call where the men did the work and lunch spot and photo ops of the men if you walk the area a little you will see 4 lavender purple satin ribbons tied to where the hikers saw the fire that Sunday and as you continue up to a top area of Weavers is where we last saw Marsh and if you keep on going than you see that is where the mystery man was so maybe the – “Sensemaking and Communications” was because then 3a was almost nearing where we saw the mystery man with Marsh and THAT man is saying he did his communications and sensemaking with Marsh up in that area but still 3a is really Sonny’s terrain example on all the hikes- and then you keep going after 3a and when I say keep going…KEEP GOING a bit than you will see full view of Peeples Valley and Yarnell than look and head left there to helispot area and than continue further to the original lightning spot areas- That is the truth of the trails. I can also lead you to the bladder bag find on Congress side and also where the prison crew worked as OSHA saw that…man I can see why OSHA went with us the hikers because if this is the trail they are giving loved ones…and again 3a is not my only interest…before the old grader heading to Shrine…one day hope to hear that area too- I saw those men coming and I know exactly where they came from as they resembled a colony of ants from our view on top of the Weavers-
3B is north of 3A where they cut the line and has a spot of brush that was unburned during the fire. 3B would be where one can still see the original condition of the manzanita alike the maze they had to get through in the canyon. It is on the east side of the two track and has the dead mixed with the live manzanita so that it is the same challenge to get through and an excellent example of exactly what the GMHS had to face in the canyon. So that may be the reason they stopped there to look at that brush. Also it may have been a meeting place for some of the men since it was before the helitac and an unburned area surrounded by the black of that morning when the GMHS crew finally arrived. The GMHS would have never hiked to there since it was already in the black and a steep incline. So if you ever get there try your hand at going through that shit. Most refused to go through with me to feel what it was like to transverse it. The few that did understood better, but you do not need to try it to see how difficult that manzanita with dead branches all through lying parallel to the ground can hinder your travel. The reason that small patch did not burn was boulder piles around it, not because of retardant drop,–though the two track on its west side had much to do with that and near the area were some cuttings done by the prison crew on Saturday.
Reply to Charlie post on April 13, 2016 at 9:42 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> 3B is north of 3A where they cut the line and has a spot of
>> brush that was unburned during the fire.
Not according to both the February/Alpha and the April/Beta official ‘Guides’
for this ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride’.
According to the ‘official Guide’…
** STAND 3A
From the photograph of ‘Stand 3A’ on PDF page 17 of the official ‘Staff Ride Guide’…
Orienting image: Stand 3A on top of ridge looking South ( and East ) for large group orientation.
GPS printed at top of photo: 34 degrees 13′ 37.3″ N / 112 degrees 47’ 25.9″ W
GPS converted to decimal values: 34.22702777777778, -112.79052777777778
Just click the following link and Google Maps will appear will a RED BALLOON marker on the exact spot where the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’ says ‘Stand 3A’ is located…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013'37.3%22N+112%C2%B047'25.9%22W/@34.2270322,-112.7927165,766m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0
** STAND 3B
From the photograph of ‘Stand 3B’ on PDF page 17 of the official ‘Staff Ride Guide’…
Orienting image: Stand 3B on top of ridge looking East for small group orientation.
GPS printed at top of photo: 34 degrees 13′ 37.0″ N / 112 degrees 47’ 25.8″ W
GPS converted to decimal values: 34.22694444444445, -112.7905
Just click the following link and Google Maps will appear will a RED BALLOON marker on the exact spot where the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’ says ‘Stand 3B’ is located…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013'37.0%22N+112%C2%B047'25.8%22W/@34.2269488,-112.7926887,766m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0
‘Stand 3B’ is about 33 feet SOUTH of ‘Stand 3A’… but neither one of them are near that patch of ‘unburned fuel’ that remained on the ridge up there between the anchor point and the Helispot.
Charlie said: 3B is north of 3A where they cut the line and has a spot of brush that was unburned during the fire.
my reply- nope. 3b is below 3a
I might have 3A and 3B reversed at any rate one of those north of the line cut by GMHS is the brushy spot between where the fire started and where the GMHS cut line down toward the old grader.
Bob Powers and Gary Olsen
Listen up you two old curmudgeons ( with all due respect) leave your bloody egos at the door.
We are not here to decide who the bestest hotshot crew was, Happy Jack or Mighty Cochino… We are here to figure out why 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died that day…
If you got a beef with each other, take it off line (email each other)… You are not adding to the resolution of why Granite died, you are acting like the 2 old shitheads in the balcony on the Muppets…
Grow the fuck up and stay focused…
And you wonder why I only post once in a blue moon?
Cause the friggin drama on here is epic…. You are not the Kardaseins, so stop acting like them….
You a use the SAIT of doing smoke and mirrors, guess what, you two old hotshots are doing the same.
Bob, you got my email address, if you want to rip me a new anus, send it…,I have been there, done that, as both of you have…which I do appreciate but let’s stay on topic
You are right, I will stop.
http://cascadefire.com/
I rather see our money going into better equipment than these story books coming out-
I posted this yesterday and as a new poster, per John Dougherty, it was awaiting moderation and showed up quite a ways down stream. Sorry to double up here but I am curious about this.
This is confusing.
First Gary O says this to RTS:
‘Are you going to make me regret how much fucking trouble I went to to set you up as an source of information to attend the staff ride as a snitch. Do you know snitches belong in ditches? WTF? You rat bastard! Pay up!’
Then Bob said:
‘RTS did not go as our representative or IM’s.’
Which is it? Did this RTS person go as a snitch or not? Why would the state allow this especially on the family staff ride? Does RTS ‘work’ for the State like some kind of double agent? What the hell?
Bob also said:
‘He went as a support person to Mrs. McKee, Not as a news media person.’
What I hear is this RTS person accompanied McKee as a support person but when she couldn’t make the hike and also emotionally broke down he kept going on with the staff ride. How much support was given there for her in her emotionally weak state? And then RTS comes to IM and dangles information without the full facts. Can’t have it both ways people.
RTS attended the staff ride first and foremost as a family support person in my place because I felt like I would be a distraction because of my outspoken views on this thread. In addition, I believed that RTS would actually do a better job than me evaluating the staff ride because he knows a lot more about wildland firefighting and is far more current than I am.
Secondly, RTS attended the staff ride with the expectation and understanding that he would use his experience, knowledge, skill, and abilities to ascertain additional information through his first hand observations and by asking of specific questions prepared in advance by WTKTT that would help us (everyone) have a better understanding of what transpired on the Yarnell Hill Fire with special emphasis pertaining to the circumstances surrounding the deaths of the crew.
My use of the word “snitch” was hyperbole…so let’s just call him a…expert. As far as why would the state allow this? Why would the state NOT allow that? What would they have to hide from a recognized expert in the field of wildland firefighting. The invitation that was sent out to all family members said they could each select a family support person to attend the staff ride with them. This is similar to what they did when they met (we think this meeting has already occurred) with the 12 families who have settled their lawsuits to answer all of their questions regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. These families could bring anyone they chose to this meeting to help them ask questions. This included their own fire experts or their attorneys.
I certainly did not agree to send RTS in my place for his personal benefit or to advance anything he is currently doing in terms of speaking engagements or acting as a training instructor regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire and its aftermath by keeping whatever information he obtained by attending the staff ride in my place to himself.
I agreed to send RTS in my place with the clear understanding that he would bring back this information he observed and obtained by asking specific questions to help us…you know…the public, who is paying for the staff ride itself, the development of the staff ride, the GMIHC when they were alive, and the GMIHC now that they are dead, you know the people who are paying for EVERYTHING with public money. You get that part…right?
I did this over the objections of a number of people who I communicate with and give me advice on the side. Every one of those people told me it was a mistake to send RTS because he would play games and withhold this information for his own benefit, rather than the benefit of the general public, those of us who participate on this thread and all of those who read it on a regular basis. And I can assure you, there is quite an impressive cast of people who monitor this thread for information pertaining to the Yarnell Hill Fire. Quite a few of them communicate with me via email.
I have made it a personal policy to share anything and everything I learn on the side rather than keep that information to myself to put into the book I am currently writing about the Yarnell Hill Fire called the “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighter” that I will never finish even though that will be the only way anyone will ever know the truth about the Yarnell Hill Fire and what happened there. Except of course for this thread, all of the information will be here eventually, it will just be scattered throughout the thread and will require substantial “mining” to find it all and put it together in a coherent format and of course commentary, analysis and personal observations will be left out.
So no, RTS did not attend the staff ride as a “media” person, other than that, all Bob Powers knows is what RTS told him and we don’t have any idea what spin RTS put on what he told Bob Powers. I knew my expectation and understanding with RTS had gone south in a big way when I waited to hear from RTS how the staff ride went…and I never did until I sent him an email three days after the staff ride that said, “Did you make it to the staff ride?” This fact told me that the warnings I had received but chose to disregard pertaining to RTS were going to prove to be all to true. Getting any information from him was going to be like, “pulling teeth” and nothing but a game where he plays, “ask me the right specific question and I may tell you what I know or I may just dangle something in front of you, it all depends on how I feel right then.”
I do know that RTS is using all of the information he has gained here and everywhere else for training purposes as an instructor and appearing in different venues as a guest speaker. I assume RTS is being paid for these sessions which are occurring in multiple states, but I don’t know the details. And I don’t have a problem with that. I knew that before I agreed at his insistence to let him go in my place. And yes, I did go to quite a bit of time and trouble to make those arrangements and I didn’t do it just because I like RTS so much from the old days. I did it with the understanding and expectation that he would share what he learned with me…and you.
Oh…and one more thing. I could suffer in silence or…I can share my disappointment with you and squeal like a stuck pig. So…I am squealing. It’s all about accountability.
Well…I guess I should add one more thing. Of course I did not expect, or even want to hear about things specific to family members. The questions they asked or their comments, disappointment or satisfaction with how the staff ride was presented or its content.
The things I had hoped to learn more about are facts or observations presented for general consumption or information regarding events of that day from the perspective of those subject matter experts who were on the public payroll the day of the fire and on the day they were presenters at the staff ride.
In addition to the list of questions that were prepared with a great deal of effort and time on WTKTT’s part that were intended to fill in some of the void in information that now exists due to the deliberate subterfuge, disinformation and disingenuous actions and words of the Arizona State Forestry Division on their partners in crime led by the U.S. Forest Service.
ADD ON
RTS was and stayed as a support person to Mrs. McKee. Traveling to and from the
Staff Ride and the meeting/dinner after. They met up at the Motel that morning and
parted after the evening meeting and Meal.
I would suggest Gary assumes to much about RTS and motives. If Gary thought he was going to be some kind of Snitch then he should be ashamed of himself.
RTS lives within 2 hours of Yarnell. Gary Lives in Washington State 20 plus hours from Yarnell.
I have no Idea what Gary thinks he asked RTS to do or what RTS understood he would do. JD wanted him to do a report as well I do not know if he agreed to that
either.
I do believe he is scheduled for another ride with FS personnel .
Cussing him out and calling him names is not going to help with any information.
But that is what Gary dose he has no other education than to be the hard headed aggressor. Mrs. McKee needed a support person not a hot head with a big mouth.
The committee had the right to refuse the selected Support Person and I believe refused to allow any person that was a news media person like JD.
That’s my information and my take.
I will say it again WTF did you guys expect. There I tried to keep that above board
but stand by every thing I said about Gary————
Gary O you said ‘I believed that RTS would actually do a better job than me evaluating the staff ride because he knows a lot more about wildland firefighting and is far more current than I am.’
I’m not so sure about this. There are more current, qualified, educated, objective people that would have been more appropriate because I think I’ve read somewhere here that he is an AD? That says he still does fire work but isn’t necessarily current. I think you sold yourself short Gary O, having passion is sometimes enough to make a difference.
Gary O you said ‘My use of the word “snitch” was hyperbole…so let’s just call him a…expert. As far as why would the state allow this? Why would the state NOT allow that? What would they have to hide from a recognized expert in the field of wildland firefighting.’
My point is the state allowing a spy or a snitch into a private family staff ride, don’t you see anything wrong with that? How would you feel? But I also understand the state would want that allowed because of RTS’ negative beliefs and statements about Granite Mountain. Oh and because the state sponsored IMT did everything right so there is no need to examine their accountability (no context here but this is a sarcastic remark). I don’t believe the state would have anything to hide from a person like this except to behind the scenes promote him to be a so called expert and continue delivering inflammatory information about Granite Mountain. Pretty smart in the CYA and smoke and mirrors categories.
gizmo said -Pretty smart in the CYA and smoke and mirrors categories.
Well, I shook my head up and down so must mean I agree- I can’t sleep over this—I feel strung on this because I was going to walk away for a bit and respite but gosh I am like “serious”…ugh…and what the hell is Marcia staying in a motel room here in town anyways? Serious. We all have plenty of FREE rooms she can stay over at vs that motel. ?????? So I am not following the warmth and welcoming cliché of this town does not extend her a warm bed for a few days coming from another state…hey, anytime Marcia you stop by and you have a warm bed—ok…no more bed bugs for you.
I do believe that Gizmo is part of the local Prescott fire people he/she seems to have a lot of second hand knowledge of the Staff Ride.
Also a need to bash RTS for the same things we have been bashed for
” RTS negative beliefs and statements about Granit Mountain”
So we have someone here either playing a game or discrediting some one who has been a main contributor on here.
How many of us have been told we are putting out negative beliefs and statements on Granit Mountain.
If Gizmo knows so mush about the Staff Ride please share?????
Or you might put your name out for clarity as to who we are listening to.
What were the Stands ?
What was asked and what was discussed?
What was at 3B that Joy would like to know?
Is your information first hand or just some one said?
Did you meet or talk to Mrs. McKee?
Hay Gizmo RTS is Current and Goes to Fires regularly as a Safety Officer,
He was in Washington and Idaho last year well over 30 days.
RTS also knows and works with many of the overhead in R3, R6, and R5.
I think you are enjoying an attempt to get RTS discredited by using
Gary O.
Gary you are enough of an investigator to figure that out.
Nope, not a game at all. I could bash you Bob but it’s just not worth any time. I would bash Gary and am tempted because he seems like a worthy opponent but he seemed to have recognized a hypocrite when he saw it in RTS. I could also bash WTKTT, Otis, Joy, and whoever else writes here but what’s the point? I’ll leave that to you.
Come on Bob, give a firefighter a chance to join this discussion! I’m only attempting to talk about what I’m curious about and don’t know about. I have read this IM for the duration and this guy RTS should be challenged–is that ok Bob?
I heard things about the staff ride just like you probably have and sources need to trust so no names for you. I don’t know what was discussed at Stands or anything like that, do you?
I do not know the questions or answers that were discussed.
So if you think RTS should be challenged then challenge me.
I support every thing he dose as do many here concerning GM.
I do not Bash anyone unless they go off the track but you seem to have the other side of the Track so go for it. You answered the question as to why you are here.
There are a lot of worthy opponents here do not kid yourself.
You will first have to prove your a Fire Fighter the Jury is out on that.
You are playing a game if bashing me is not worth while then you are afraid I will show you for what you are. I have the experience and back ground to talk Fire Safety and Fire Fatalities. If you want to know something go for it.
If your here to bash you wont last long we are here to find and discuss information on Yarnell.
Who, What, Where, Why and How.
If you are here to protect GM you will be in a quagmire in a hurry.
Well Gizmo why don’t you start bashing. Most of us can handle the bashing–I have plenty of flaws to start with and you seem to know ours. This is not a personal vendetta, but gets personal when it relates to the foolish deaths of 19 wild land fire fighters, the destruction of half Yarnell, millions of tax money that well could have been used to improve wild land fire fighter conditions, people displaced from homes and sorrowful loss of life in the aftermath and the people and wild land fire fighters are fed a belly full of lies to cover the tracks of the so called elite people that ran the fire. So give us your take and where people on this site are wrong regarding the Yarnell fire. Give us your bashing and you are welcome to start with me. I am a citizen but consider that I was above that fire and with my simple ways and thinking had sense enough to know better than challenge that brush down in that chute and that even if I had a lookout to watch the ballistic wild fire just over the ridge to the north. If you have an explanation of why Marsh would kill those men by negligent action then give it to us since all experts we have hiked to the area see what those men did as foolish in the extreme. I am certain all the men want to hear your take and why you think the GMHS bosses are innocent of negligence here.
Hello Charlie, it’s pretty cool that you were a miner as I’ve known a few in my time and appreciate what they do. Open pit or underground, I respect the hell out of it.
As far as the bashing BS goes, I don’t want anything to do with it, you should go talk with Bob about that as he’s an entitled super bully. My opinion. And all I said is RTS left somebody on the staff ride that he was there to support and I get ‘called out’.
I am new here and haven’t tried to redeem GM, all I said is somebody on this site bashes them. How are firefighters supposed to learn from that? Ya’ll take things personal and I’m attempting to engage, I’m rethinking this though as dialogue or disagreements about things don’t seem to be welcome. Nineteen hotshots lost at once is hard for all.
thank you, gizmo
Gizmo
You have not stated any thing about GM and this fire
You have only stated that RTS states nothing but Negative Bashing things about GM.
So Show me where GM followed the 10 and 18 and LCES?
WE have been thru this over and over here show me some different evidence?
Marsh and Steed did not follow the safety Rules and Killed their Crew.
That is fact not bashing. I could go on but then I am some Bully right.
Talk Riddles and play your game or come out of the wood work and contribute something.
No Charlie, I am speaking from a pure wildland firefighting background. I don’t know shit about structure fires and don’t want to–that’s the point! Wildland IS structure nowadays and that’s an issue the agencies haven’t taken head on!!
I’m not sure why you think I would know anything about lawyers and Willis. Please stop putting words into my mouth.
Gizmo,
Go for it. I don’t see you trying to bash anyone with what you said. You just said it would be a waste of time. Don’t let Bob bother you.
I’ve said before, anyone from any background has the potential to add something useful in the quest for the truth. JD’s blog allows people the opportunity to add to the discussion anonymously. Chasing people off by urging them to give us their name is counterproductive.
So share away. I wish you would so we all have a chance to objectively and honestly evaluate what you have to say.
Woodsman
Does anyone realize that firefighters can impliment the 10&18 and LCES and still get killed? And I’m not just talking about Yarnell. The complex transition fires that are the norm are scary animals. Fighting fire is a risky business and people die and always will due to gravity, rigs, heart attacks, etc. Burnovers centered around transition fires and structures are the new bastard we are faced with. The public expects us to step in between their property and the fire and save it, is that the norm now? Albeit those fires are the meaningful ones because we are actually making a difference rather than standing on a ridge in the middle of nowhere or some snag patch wondering what the hell we are really doing. I suppose what makes me sad is we truly don’t know what GM had implemented and it isn’t fair to assume because they died they didn’t have safety rules in place. Firefighters may believe they have everything checked on the list and still something happens that kills them. Also, bashing does not translate into learning or human factors, this is similar to how reports were done in the 80’s and 90’s and it hinders learning.
Well all I can say Gizmo is you are dead wrong.
All the Fire fighters and overhead out there that follow the 10 and 18 and LCES are not fatalities.
Fires are predictable, fires do the absolute normal things. The 10 Standard orders tell you what to do.
They are no different to day than 30 years ago.
Granit mountain Died because the did no pay attention To the Watch outs.
Numbers-11,12,14,15,16,17
They did not post a look out before they moved. They did not have communications with any one who could see the fire or the activity.
They moved out of a Black safety zone for no reason when every one else was headed for safety.
They failed to follow the 10 standard orders.
Numbers 1,2,3,5 and 7
You fail all that and your chances of survival are not good.
Show me a fire where all the rules were followed and some one died.
I will tell you right now there is not one.
Plan safety in transition fires and structures the rules are the same.
There is a big difference between Fire Deaths and the other deaths. But they all evolve a safety attitude. From driving to falling snags or Hart attacks to dehydration.
I fought fires in the 60’s in drought conditions in southern Cal. and in timber in Northern Cal.
The fires today are no different and the 10 and 18 are being used every year By Fire Fighters and Hot Shot crews.
Under your analogy we would be killing a lot of fire fighters every year. The ones that died last year pure and simple but themselves in the position. Because they did not follow the 10 and 18.
Gizmo says the public expects their property to be protected by wild land fire fighters. That sounds like the Willis Syndrome–That’s what they do protect structures. I do think that is what they were expected to do and whoever expected them to do that must have been one to believe they could do that despite Steed’s four time refusal to drop down into that brush and break all those safety rules. The argument heard by our cotton mouth Donut according to the Willis report to the lawyer in Prescott was to that effect, but Donut does not tell us the whole truth so we are not sure the reasons that Steed finally gave in to his boss Marsh and we do not know what Donut heard in regards to why Marsh was so adamant that the men risk themselves to try to protect those structures. Marsh must have had a big cheese barking orders at him to take that risk. Now I would like to hear what Gizmo has to refute the evidence put forth by Willis to the Prescott attorney, and do you believe that attorney was lying about what Willis told him?
Bob,
Good post!
Woodsman
Nothing personal on my part–If you are a fire fighter then you are certainly welcome to an opinion and if it is out here it will be put in the balance. It will certainly out weigh mine since mine are second hand based upon what experiences I have had with hikes and statements from some of the top individuals in wild land fire fighting. I started with reading the document put out on the Yarnell Hill Fire by Wooten and Morrison. It covers some fine details about the fire from professionals that study these wild fires. It puts the thought in ones mind that what we saw at Yarnell was a situation that got out of hand once that fire escaped its strike and got out of the boulders into the brush below. Joy and I and the GMHS crew witnessed what Wooten and Morrison describe in their 30 or so pages on the Yarnell Fire. It was the inferno releasing energy and showing us a front that a battalion could not have had any effect against.
Bearing those facts in mind I wondered how some depleted looking crew of 17 men could scratch out anything against a fire. They must have completed that line pretty quickly because we saw them relaxing above the line they cut much of the time we were observing the fire off the two track some north of and then where they eventually went down.
When we were up there with Holly and Wayne Neil and Ted Putnam, Holly did find some shrimp scraps there near the two track above the line. Whether they ate there or someone snacked while they observed the fire is questionable but reasonable since we were at where the went down until after 1 pm and they had not moved at the time we left.
Now considering what WTKTT describes as the Escape route and what they supposedly had laid out as the Boulder Springs Ranch we would definitely like to know who did lay out such an escape route. If he is a fire fighter then he ought to be censored. In my mind as a citizen, and I might add the pros whom I have hiked with (smoke jumpers, wild land death fire investigators, wild land retired fire fighter bosses, regular structure fire fighters, and even some citizens are left with their mouths a gap seeing the so called escape route and the idea of all the information that was available that gave plenty red flags to the danger of dropping off in that basin of tangled brush.
If you have hiked the two track to where they went down then I would like your opinion to see how it matches up with what Bob Powers, Gary Olsen, WTKTT, RTS and others have said about the decision of using that escape route-or even considering structure protection from their vantage point. I can tell you Gary, Bob, WTKTT, and others on this site are spot on with DR. Ted Putnam whom has hiked the whole thing more than once. That not only includes him but all others of his ilk that have hiked it. They all say it was gross error and they want the answers as to why these men were sacrificed. It certainly was no accident, daily occurrence or a God thing.
When you have a cowboy like Rick McKensey knowing better than to drop off in a canyon and a guy like myself absolutely refusing to go down the very trail of death they took then maybe you better start looking at what these firemen are being taught. You sure don’t need Amanda’s advice at a fire fighting academy if she learned her shit from Eric and you certainly don’t want a Donut advising people on how to fight fires.
And this is what Dr. Ted Putnam is so disheartened about that the people that ran this show here at Yarnell rather hide the truth and facts and play this thing off as just another bunch of deaths of wild land fire fighters because that is what they do–protect structures and they could not sit on their buts they were so anxious to go down to do that. Shit those men were so depleted that even after that short line of 150-250 yards in that heat of 106F they had to be glad to just sit and watch that Big Dog Eat. They were happy they did not now have anything to do but stay safe. But some Yahoo that thought he wanted to be a hero and save structures (more likely was determined to strictly take orders), had to sternly order his men down to their death. Of course he does not deserve all the blame since we know that he was under pressure from his bosses to do what he did. Yet they continue to lay the whole thing to Marsh. Dr. Ted Putnam does not agree to that idea and thinks the whole truth should be out–so does every one else on this site.
Nope…they didn’t teach me that in Sagebrush Cop school, they only told me about lookin’ fer folks pickin’ up arrow heads??????????
You are a HOOT Bob, especially when you get so darn MAD!
Say…did you HERE the one about the Oak Grove Hotshots???????????
Well anyway. One day a priest, a rabbi and the Oak Grove Hotshots went into a bar???????????????
C’mon…have you herd it or not???????????????
Yap the Oak Grove Hot Shot was God. Ordered Wine and Gave communion to all the lost Happy Jack Crew.
The Priest and the Rabbi were amazed.
You HAVE heard that one. I knew you had, it’s as old as the hills and twice as dusty!
C’mon Bob, let’s kiss and make up…or at least make up. I never said you didn’t accomplish a lot more than me in FIRE.
I am very proud of the fact that I was never more than a ground pounder. A hotshot was all I ever wanted to be!
Although you are forgetting about the Santa Fe Hotshots. That was much more my crew than Happy Jack was. The Happy Jack Hotshots are synonymous with Amos Coochyama, he founded that crew.
Whereas I founded the Santa Fe Hotshots and was the crew boss there for four years as opposed to only three at Happy Jack. The happy place in my mind is always in Santa Fe!
The best 2 1/2 years of my carrier Oak Grove
Hot Shots. We started fighting fires in April and went as late as November 30.
That was when Southern Calif. had 24 person crews 4 overhead and 20 FF.
Right on. The Oak Grove Hotshots Rocked! Oak Grover Hotshots Forever; Forever Oak Grove Hotshots!
Well…I don’t think I am explaining the situation very well. All of the families got to pick their own support person based on their individual and personal needs. The family in question is considered to be outsiders and have not been treated fairly or in an equitable, charitable or respectful manner by the Prescott established power structure.
They know virtually nothing about wildland firefighting and RTS’s first job was to be a knowledgeable resource to help them navigate unfamiliar and even hostile waters. The information gleaned by him was first and foremost meant to help them. This was done above board with their knowledge, cooperation and permission. It could have been a win, win, win, and a WIN, because if we can find a way to help one, we potentially can help all of them.
We are all on the same side. We all want to know all of the circumstances and facts surrounding the death of the crew. Even the State of Arizona, the U.S. Forest Service and Mrs. Amando Beno Marsh would tell you that is what they want as well.
And so no, I don’t see anything wrong with that. Each family was empowered to pick the person they wanted as a support person to support them in their time of need. And that certainly included the family who RTS went with, they are entitled to the same thing everyone else is entitled to aren’t they?
RTS was not expected nor did I want him to listen in or report on any personal moments. Once again, we are talking about the OFFICIAL information that is publicly given to everyone in attendance at ALL of these staff rides. The canned presentation and we hoped answers to specific questions that SHOULD be public knowledge like who, what, when, where, why and how.
It is probably more accurate to call RTS and UNDERCOVER AGENT who was not undercover at all. Everyone knew why he was there. Apparently even the bad guys and apparently he sold us out.
That was to be expected, it was anticipated and that eventuality was actually planned for. That alone told us volumes about what kind of people we are dealing with…wouldn’t you agree? In other words…I gave both RTS and THEM the rope to hang themselves and they had a choice…do the right think or dangle at the end of a rope. This is not about a court of law…it is about the court of public opinion. THEY work for US!
And it is more personal listening to the Questions and concerns of Family Members than it is listening to a bunch of Fire Fighters doing the same thing,
Gary if you had taken time to wait on RTS to talk to you rather than insult him you would have found out he did exactly as you stated in the first part of your message above.
He talked with them he answered there questions and he let them ask the questions. He was not there to be center stage.
He told me it was a very humbling experience and rewarding.
Step back and take a lesson on humility.
Why does everyone always accuse me of being arrogant. Where does that come from?
THE JACK HAMMER AS YOU SAY——————-
So…is that my fault for not waiting for RTS to talk to me or RTS’s fault for talking to you instead of talking to me. You helped build our house Bob, so I will make allowances for you…old timer. But fuck RTS and the white horse he rode in on. I’m done playin’ his games.
I called him to talk to him and left a message he called the next morning just after the Staff Ride. He shared a few thins nothing
that would change what we already know
I just happen to catch him before he posted on IM.
Well…I was kinda think’ he could have sent me an email sometime during the three days after the staff ride I waited for him to email me and tell me something…anything.
I know he had my email address because he emailed a bunch before the staff ride asking if he could go in my place.
I did what you said, and I looked in the mirror and I didn’t see RTS’S BITCH written anywhere on my body? So….
gizmo said: What I hear is this RTS person accompanied McKee as a support person but when she couldn’t make the hike and also emotionally broke down he kept going on with the staff ride.
Marcia-
I am greatly sorrowed that this tidbit is out that RTS was not your true support person. You stop by anytime even if it is 3am…I am one of many people who support you and know the tenderness of what you faced…not just 6-30-13 but the emotions to this day; you have 6-30 but I have 9-11…anytime I will go with you….anytime. Thank gizmo for this news-
RTS? really? really.
Joy— Do not believe every thing you hear.
Gizmo is playing with you.
so Gizmo and Gary-
I was going for that respite a few days back when Sonny awoke me to IM and I here I was and I still am going on respite but do you think possibly there is some jumping the gun on the “call outs”…I am not saying this to hear more oh no Joy…blah blah blah but what if RTS went from this event and had time been given more than three measly days he could of got stuff out in his own normal ways to us in his own timing—
just saying.
Also Gizmo I cannot even see you calling out Otis on ANYTHING- he is just a cool guy from the UK—and let me guess gizmo—you are not a Yoda language fan much like Gary is not so that’s what you would call out on me OR that I am pretty cool to know day in and out in person but have no clue or social skills for online writing language and can easily get entangled to magnified unnecessary areas?
people that know me get what’s going on there…well Any road
“cheerios”
have a good one…any new topics besides all this?
Joy,
I only included Otis in that example because it was a name that popped into my head, I’m really not here to challenge you or Gary or Otis, or anyone really. I’m into the facts on all ends. I let Bob get to me with his misspelled words is all.
If you know Marcia McKee go ask her if RTS left her high and dry on the line to continue on with the mission of the staff ride. Ask her if that was the “family support” she needed at the time, to be left and force others to console and care for her safety. Is that the definition of family support?
Thank you, gizmo
AHH some more second hand information or Maybe just Gossip?
You need more facts before you start accusations you have no factual knowledge of.
You already admitted you were not there. You have decided to speak for Mrs. McKee when you have not even talked to her.
My understanding is she was more than happy with RTS and made close friends with him.
Now if you are getting your rumors from Mrs. Marsh and that group
who despises and attempts to discredit RTS then you are truly spreading miss information. Have a nice day who ever you are.
If I spelled something wrong I am sure you understood the message. If not I can put it in plain English.
Your here to play games I am here to call you out.
Oh Bob, fine, why don’t you go ask McKee about this since you know people who know people. Dispel what I’m saying, I would really like to be wrong about this. Since you and RTS seem to be the same person you must have access to her? Or do you get second hand information too? I again am confused, you think you’re calling me out for speaking of second hand knowledge–groundbreaking!! I never said I was at the staff ride, were you there? And what you call games is reality, deal with it, this is an open forum. I do have factual knowledge and maybe that’s what really irritates you about me.
thank you, gizmo
First hand I have already talked to her and she was very satisfied with the support that RTS gave her during the Staff Ride. The rest is none of your business.
Your factual knowledge is pure BS.
My personal knowledge is from the people involved.
Quit spreading lies and rumors.
by the way…welcome here to this blog, Gizmo.
calvin says
APRIL 12, 2016 AT 7:33 AM
Tell the truth Gary
OK…I’ll bite. Tell the truth about what?
Wait…was that one of those trick questions like, “Have you stopped beating your wife?” so you can’t answer yes, or no without being guilty. Is the answer, “Tell the truth about everything of course.”
That was just a voice of support. As in hell yeah!!
Oh..thank you. This format often leaves much to be desired in terms of personal communication.
does what Calvin did fall under YODA lingo, Gary?
No…Yoda or you would say, “Tell the truth you must Gary…..hmmmmmm”
Or maybe how about, “The truth Gary, must be told……hmmmmmm” or “Must be the truth told Gary……hmmmmm” or it could be, “Gary Truth told it must….hmmmmmm.”
I don’t really know, I never got into Yoda all that much, I found him irritating very much to be…….hmmmmmm..
so Gary is not into Yoda…which character did you like…
I like Chewie if any- but my brothers are the Star Wars people…
I was upset I had to sit in Scottsdale Cine Capri line saying “I gotta pee” and no way to pee to than getting yelled at when I could not hold it any longer and I pulled my pants down and peed. I wasn’t gonna wet my pants at five-
The first time I ever went to the Cine Capri was to see ”
Star Wars” in that long line that snaked on forever. I only really got into the first “Star Wars” and seeing at the old Cine Capri was quite the experience.
I guess I would have to pick Boba Fett as my favorite character. Kind of a dark, outsider who is trying to do the right thing by bringing in someone with a bounty on his head for being a bad guy. Even though the movie was designed to make you cheer for the bad guy because he was just so darn cute and adorable…that rascal Hans Solo.
Brendan McDonough has now started creating ‘Facebook Event pages’ for all
the upcoming ‘book signing’ events he’s about to do.
Here’s the one for the ‘book signing’ he’ll be doing in Prescott, Arizona…
https://www.facebook.com/events/1809462022448773/
————————————————————————–
Event – Public – Books – Hosted by Brendan Mcdonough
Saturday, May 14 at 2 PM in MST
Peregrine Book Company, 219 North Cortez Street, Prescott, AZ 86301
Details:
Hey Everyone this is the schuduled signing for Prescott Arizona. Couldnt be more excited to do this in the town that has shown me so much love and support thank you and see you all soon..
Guests ( so far )…
20 interested
15 going
12 invited
————————————————————————–
4 days prior to the one in Prescott… Brendan will be ‘signing books’ in Tempe, Arizona…
My Lost Brothers Signing
Tue May 10 in MST at 6428 S McClintock Dr, Tempe, AZ 85283
There is, of course, no word as to whether Brendan McDonough will be “answering any questions” at these public appearances.
Followup…
In conjunction with beginning to announce his ( nationwide ) ‘book signing’ events…
Brendan McDonough also just posted a photo of his Granite Mountain T-Shirt on his Facebook page with emphasis on the “Esse Quam Vider” logo over the pocket that Eric Marsh stole from the college he attended in North Carolina ( Appalachian State University, founded in 1899 ).
And Brendan adds a caption to the photo that says “Esse Quam Videri” is the “Greatest Lesson” he’s ever been taught.
From the text above the photo of Brendan’s T-Shirt…
————————————————————————
What’s the greatest lesson someone has taught you?
Was It a family member, co-worker, friend, or even a complete stranger.
Let me know “YOUR GREATEST LESSON”.
Brendan McDonough responded…
Esse Quam Videri ” to be be rather than to seem to be”
————————————————————————-
Brendan has now ALSO posted the following on his PUBLIC Facebook page ( which still describes his ‘occupation’ as ‘Public Figure )…
https://www.facebook.com/brendan.j.mcdonough/
————————————————————————–
Brendan Mcdonough – April 8 at 10:29pm ·
My Lost Brothers – Book Signing Events
This book will show you how my Brothers saved my life from the path of destruction I was on. It will show our youth it’s not to late to Be Better. It will show so many what Wildland Firefighters sacrifice to protect lives, save property, and preserve our forest . It will show what heroes they were to me and so many others. It will widen many eyes to honor there sacrifice and so many others who have made the ultimate sacrifice. It will give a glimpse to what it’s like to live with PTSD and how to seek the right help. Many will look for answers to Yarnell but like myself there’s some things we will never know. One thing I do know is my brothers were hero’s and a life honoring them is a life worth living. Thank you for all of your support, I read the letters from years ago to be inspired again. God bless sorry I left out some important info the book is on Amazon for presale is being released May 3 by Hachette publishing thank you all so much
I believe and there website for preorder. Thank you everyone for the love and support. Also in May I will be doing book signings throughout Arizona.
————————————————————————–
And McDonough then also added ( yesterday )…
( YES!… you, too, can have your own book-signing in your very own town! )…
————————————————————————–
Brendan McDonough – April 10 at 6:51pm ·
Hey everyone I have had a lot of questions about the book and hope I can answer all of them. Currently working on a website ( please bear with me as I am not a website designer haha) so people who can’t make it to the signings can purchase a signed copy online. The website will have information for all the book signings and so much more.
If you would like to have a book signing in your town let me know and will try and work something out. If your with the media feel free to contact me and we can try and set something up. If you would like for me to come to your fire department or place of business I would love to share my story and honor my brothers. Thank you for being a part of this journey and keeping my brothers memory alive.
————————————————————————–
So considering all of the NEWS above coming from ‘Public Figure’ Brendan McDonough… I think I’ll just walk up to him at one of these ‘book signings’ and say…
“Hey Brendan… say listen… I’d love for you to sign my copy of the book… but could you do me a favor? How about writing in that blank space there all the things you actually DID hear over the GM intra-crew radio that you were refusing to tell all the investigators who had the misfortune to ever be in the same room with you? Yea… right there in that blank space. That would be good… and THEN you can ‘sign that’ for me… you know… so you can sort of ‘Esse Quam Videri’ and actually BE someone who tells the truth ( ALL of it )… instead of someone who just SEEMS to”. Attaboy. Thanks.”
By the way…
When I mentioned above that Eric Marsh ‘stole’ the “Esse Quam Videri” motto to be used for the Granite Mountain organization from his former college, Appalachian State University, that *could* actually be construed as literally ‘true’.
Appalachian State University was founded in 1899, and they have an official LEGAL TRADEMARK ( in the USA ) on the use of the motto “Esse Quam Videri’.
https://trademarks.justia.com/777/82/appalachian-state-university-1899-esse-quam-videri-77782612.html
———————————————————————-
APPALACHIAN STATE UNIVERSITY 1899 ESSE QUAM VIDERI
Trademark Details
Status: 702 – Section 8 & 15-Accepted And Acknowledged
Serial Number: 77782612
Registration Number: 3749739
Word Mark: …ESSE QUAM VIDERI
Status: 702 – Section 8 & 15-Accepted And Acknowledged
Translation of Words in Mark: The English translation
of “ESSE QUAM VIDERI” is TO BE RATHER THAN TO SEEM.
———————————————————————-
WTKTT Said
———————————————————————-
So considering all of the NEWS above coming from ‘Public Figure’ Brendan McDonough… I think I’ll just walk up to him at one of these ‘book signings’ and say…
“Hey Brendan… say listen… I’d love for you to sign my copy of the book… but could you do me a favor? How about writing in that blank space there all the things you actually DID hear over the GM intra-crew radio that you were refusing to tell all the investigators who had the misfortune to ever be in the same room with you? Yea… right there in that blank space. That would be good… and THEN you can ‘sign that’ for me… you know… so you can sort of ‘Esse Quam Videri’ and actually BE someone who tells the truth ( ALL of it )… instead of someone who just SEEMS to”. Attaboy. Thanks.”
———————————————————————-
THAT I would love to see!
Do you think the blank space would be big enough?
Reply to Otis post on April 12, 2016 at 3:04 am
>> Otis asked…
>>
>> Do you think the blank space would be big enough?
Dunno… but there’s always other ‘blank pages’ at the start and end of hardcopy printed books. He could just ‘continue’ to there if he needs to.
That wouldn’t bother me a bit.
Yes Brandon and this is one of those trick questions Gary talks about, only it is not a trick question– Have you quit lying by omission and commission in your book?
And concerning the breaking of the LCES, 10 and 18, have you quit believing they are Hill Billy. I would also like to know do you still believe the grader would have been a good place to deploy?
And now that you see all the mistakes, misbeliefs you had about safety, what can you truthfully tell future firemen that might keep them alive. Would you do a conference book signing before Gary Olsen, Dr. Ted Putnam, Bob Powers, Norb Szczuerk, RTS, WTKTT, John Dougherty, Tex Gilligan, Joy Collura just to name a few that have a bundle of questions for you? We invite you to the Yarnell Library to do a book signing if so. Lets hope you after all do not forget the very town that burned half to the ground and the poor people here that lost their homes. I am certain your publisher would want you to honor the town with your presence since we in this town are subjects of the terrible situation that killed your brothers and burned our town. Consider also the people that are managing the memorial to the men in our back yards. They also deserve the honor of your presence so we can get to the bottom of this catastrophy. Surely that book has all the intricate details of the talks made on the radio in its fullest –knowledge and facts you have kept teasing us with by hiding for years. So yes we would love and deserve your presence in Yarnell so perhaps you can come clean with the facts you have hidden so long.
I will be there wwtktt-
so what are your questions-
I will put them in front of his book we get that we pay to have him sign-
let you know how it goes
by the way my lost brothers-
title of his book?
They ain’t lost…they are whole and good….but there is some “lost” amongst the aftermath of the YHF—need to speak up.
hmm…I’m just saying.
watched the news tonight…I have dined in fancy ass spots and spent time with Tony Tarantino even have pics somewhere of those times because others took shots- Quentin’s pops and he is in Arizona all pissy over some topic Quentin did public…really…it was funny to see my pop’s old boss sheriff Joe on stage with Tony—but I have suggested to film buff maker Tony that YHF has a movie called NO EXIT—really? If no exit how come Sonny and I are alive?
It was strange to see the two on stage together—reminded me of the good old crony days where my father got awards and bonuses from Joe and I knew the behind the scenes how bogus that whole thing is…why Tony you came to Arizona to do that just came of PR moment—again, I’m just saying.
Probably shaking his head right now- huh…well, I am the one you spent time with and you bought dinner as I paid the bar tab (mind you people- dinner $300; don’t ask how much the liquor tab was but way beyond my means at the time and more than dinner…it took me having a soap star/friend autograph something so I could sell it to pay that tab eventually- but Tony thought I was “strange” because I was not up on taking your portfolio pic that was autographed—I could care less on autographs (unless in bar tab bind); ask my brother and mother- when I spent time with Brett Favre some football player and Emmet Smith they went koo-koo and the crap I say crap that I gave my family is making to the heirlooms of wills—ridiculous…
Signed stuff- what the hell does it mean…nothing to me…
hmmm…I’m just saying.
I also am just saying… good night…
another sleepless night for me because clarity is out there even at reach but the people fail these 19 men even Donut…I mean look at that link above how happy they WERE…and how they are robbed those opportunities and how are the YHF people gonna explain the Twisp fire when the children get old enough and say how come this keeps happening to good men and women…and if it was Marcia McKee who is still in litigation that went on this field trip with RTS as Bob said…was it a satisfactory trail staff ride hike…was it a ride or a hike or both?
That is a true story Joy tells about Tarantino whom we saw talking with Arapaio lately on TV. That Tarantino has an ego with the women you wont believe and actually opened the trunk of his car full of his pictures autographed to be able to hand one to women and people he met. Talk about ego and when Joy refused a picture and autograph he felt offended.
This talks of Brandon, what the hell has he really got to offer. I don’t want his advice on PTSD–I have a dog with it that knows more about that than he does. I don’t want him advising me on safety in wild fires–the little shit called common sense rules of wild land fire fighting safety Hill Billy and only by a streak of luck saved himself, and had he deployed where he said he intended then he would have melted like the tires on that old grader did, and what has he got to say about wild land fire fighting when he could not even stand up to the work that day of making line-yet he was one of the youngest on the team, then what really does someone of his ilk have to add to the positive side of wild land fire fighting when he can’t even come clean with the truth of what he heard–knowledge that is pertinent to saving future wild land fire fighters lives.
On second thought–don’t honor Yarnell with your presence Donut. You are the epitome of what a wild land fire fighter ought not to be and you like the bosses that sent those men down in a dangerous canyon are nothing but a lousy example of good wild land fire fighters. Stay in your PTSD whiner mode and feed off the sympathy of the general public that knows no better.
I understand your sadness for loss of those men, but tell the truth. Most of us have shed the same tears you have for the folly of your type training. Half the town here and more have lost homes as well as loved ones for the events. The tax payer has lost millions and I expect more millions will be put into extolling you and the GMHS as the world’s great example of how wild land fire fighters ought to be. But it is a lie and some of the most intelligent people on wild land fire fighting ability and understanding know it and tell it as it is. These retired wild land fire fighting men won’t stand for the Donut type bull shit. They have a vested interest in cleaning the reasons for the debacle that too many want to make into a heroic action.
Amen…can I get a Hallelujah? HALLELUJAH!
Gary, it does not matter how many get their egos burned a bit if it rights some wrongs. Keep up the good work–I for one appreciate your being candid–I think you have with all on this site. It has been Hellalujay for much of this journey. This is not to denigrate any on this site–all are valuable sources of information.
Once I saw that Bill Gabbert censors his site I quit going there. If he is restricting free flow of ideas he will have to eventually come here to get the facts straight, not as he wants them to be. May the Irish Gods be with you and all those that help us citizens understand the system and get through the lies we have been fed.
This is being brought up from down below so it doesn’t get ‘lost in the weeds’…
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on April 9, 2016 at 9:20 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> On the YH Fire Staff Ride, one of the OPS SME’s
Which one?
>> said something to the effect of ‘we can’t/don’t ORDER anyone to do anything’
And in what CONTEXT was this statement made?
Are you saying that at one of the ‘Stands’ on last Tuesday’s ‘Staff Ride’… there really was some kind of ‘discussion’ about whether or not there really WAS an ORDER coming from Marsh ( or people ABOVE him ) that day?
At which ‘Stand’ did this discussion about whether or not there is ever any such thing as an ORDER in the WFF business actually take place?
Wwtktt…the way you command is very much admirable…
Truth IS the ONLY justice..
You are original and engaging and really ask the questions…
You are hardworking and pristine organizational skills in all this…
Really great to see you stay with it..
That’s what one of the locals think about you here.
RTS ( Robert the Second ) volunteered that (partial) information.
I just want to know what CONTEXT he ‘heard’ that in.
Were they just walking along and some SME suddenly blurted out…
“Oh… and hey folks… ya’ll know that NOBODY ever REALLY gives anyone any actual ORDERS on a fire… right?”…
…or was this ‘statement by one of the OPS SMEs made as part of an actual ‘presentation’ at one of the ‘Stands’?
I think there SHOULD be a ‘discussion’ somewhere during this Staff Ride about who may or may not have given someone ‘ORDERS’ that day.
It’s not just another ‘secret Masonic ceremony’.
It’s supposed to be the official ‘Staff Ride’ that presents the best possible “Lessons Learned” for a Historic National Tragedy.
I just found this and I am moving it to the top because I don’t want my response to get lost.
Charlie says
APRIL 10, 2016 AT 11:58 AM
I wonder why people are afraid to post as you say Gary that some have said that your version is not the right one. Then post if Gary has it off some. We can compare the new version and the source. It is easy to get a different e mail and use a different handle so you are untraceable. Of course that might take a few minutes of time, but that was all the GMHS had once they dropped off in that canyon. They deserve that we get the fine details correctly said.
The person who I recently wrote about that was giving me push back in an email has now completely changed his/her tune. That person now says…and I quote, “What was said MIGHT be a different story” and I interpret this tacit admission, especially since it came from THIS person, as meaning what I have posted is more or less right, it is just missing some additional details.
So…I think it is safe to say that just about the last coherent thought that went through Jesse Steed’s mind is that Eric Marsh had REALLY fucked them over for the last time. Of course he never got the opportunity to fully evaluate what his own complicity in their pending doom had been. But I think we can all comprehend that is perfectly understandable…under the circumstances .
I feel like I owe you, who are indeed my closest friends and confidants an explanation for my most recent rant and vulgar post directed against RTS. I had the opportunity and the invitation to attend the staff ride as a family support person. And because I felt the first priority of a family support person should be to act as a family support person I declined because I thought I would be a distraction at the staff ride because of my outspoken views here on this thread.
So…I offered my ticket to my old hippie and bonafide rebel hotshot friend RTS to attend in my place. Back in the day, I was trained how to be a hotshot on a forest that emphasized the quasi military aspect of being a hotshot and he worked on a forest that took somewhat of the opposite approach. We called them hippies. Although interestingly enough, the ultimate hippie crew within all of Region 3 was the Prescott Hotshots because they were formed from an entire Type II crew made up of entirely Prescott College students.
Prescott College is a very small, very liberal, very elite, very rich, and very expensive liberal arts college that is attended by trust fund kids. You know…the kind of place where they mostly just sit around smoke dope and talk about their feelings and then they get to grade themselves on how they did. You may remember Marti graduated from there, which was just one reason I gave Marti such a hard time. I grew up in Prescott around those Prescott College kids.
My hotshot crew, the Happy Jack Hotshots, was formed around what had originally been a Type II crew made up entirely of Hopi Indians who were well known for being highly disciplined and very serious about wildland firefighting which was why my first hotshot mentor was one mean Indian by the name of ‘Amos Coochyama who nicknamed me Dopey Opie because he thought I looked so much like Opie Taylor and I looked so…you know…dopey.
Famous Amos went on to be the Forest Dispatcher on the Coconino and he and I became good friends in later years after I became the crew boss and a forest dispatcher myself. On a side note, both he and his long time assistant and eventual crew boss Jeff Denepont were both very good crew bosses who ran very tight and highly disciplined crews.
And you either meshed with their program…or you were removed from the crew immediately if not sooner. Maybe to an engine crew or since we had the forest helicopter on our District (Long Valley) maybe you could become a helislack…you know, if you could stand layin’ around lickin’ your nuts and you were a good hand other than you didn’t mesh with the hotshot crew.
Forgive me I digress once again. So…anyway, since my old associate RTS was an ex-hippie or maybe a current hippie…who knows? I thought he would be a good choice to replace me as a family support person and attend this staff ride for the specific purpose of first and foremost being a good support person, you know in touch with his feelings and sensitive, but secondly to ask specific questions and make specific observations and bring those back to this thread.
RTS was even given a long and specific list of very good questions from WTKTT that he was supposed to ask. And since his return to this thread after using my ticket to the party, getting him to even admit he went to the staff ride has been like pulling teeth and getting any information that will help us determine why the crew has proven to be the impossible dream. And by the way, I was repeatedly admonished NOT to send RTS in my place because the general feeling was that he could not be trusted, but I said, no…I think he will do a good job.
So…I am a little pissed off at RTS. As a result I have been thinking about his entire contribution to this thread from day one and I have concluded that his entire effort has been spent doing nothing else but vilifying Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed while doing everything he can to exonerate and prove that none of his Battalion Chief Fuck Buddies did anything wrong. Yes…we get that part and have for some time now.
But…RTS has shown absolutely no interest whatsoever in ascertaining what other causal reasons existed that played some part in the deaths of the crew. I am afraid that the old hippie rebel from yesteryear has turned into a water carrying company man who can’t be trusted, period…end of story.
RTS is the first person participating on this thread I would ban if I were John Dougherty. I don’t think we need any more of his finger pointing at the crew, we already have enough of that and we expanded our research and fact finding in other, more complex areas a long time ago and RTS keeps holding us back by trying to distract us with cutting and pasting shiny objects.
RTS actually said down below that Jesse Steed was not a Marine in combat and that could explain why and how a Marine could turn down an order three times and reluctantly follow it the fourth time. Which of course all of you know by now that Jesse Steed the Marine was indeed involved in full throttle combat against a deadly dragon at the time…what a stupid thing to say.
I also read down below one of those stupid Battalion Chief humps from the staff ride said something like, “we don’t order anybody to do anything on a fire.” This is an unbelievably stupid thing to say. You have all heard the recording of Ops Able ORDERING Air Attack Burfield to answer the crew when they were repeatedly calling for help. Everyone in authority or command on a fire gives orders all day long. How the fuck do you think fighting wildfires works…like Prescott College where everybody just wanders around and does what feels good or right for them? Fuck no, they are run like a full on combat battle with opposing forces, it just so happens one of them can’t think so we should win every time.
And just to make it clear. I don’t know about how the Prescott Hotshots did things back in the day made up of nuthin’ but dope smokin’ hippies or how RTS’s crew did things which was made up of almost all dope smoking hippies, but I can tell you one thing for sure. Every hotshot crew I ever worked on worked under the overriding premise that the crew boss knew what to do better than anyone else and that was why they were the crew boss. And if the crew boss said it was Easter…the crew started looking immediately for Easter eggs…period, end of story.
And if someone, especially the assistant crew boss would have said no, I am NOT going to look for Easter eggs because my smart phone says it is June 30 and today is not Easter, I don’t know everything that would have happened except I know one thing for sure. The crew would have ceased to exist as a hotshot crew at that point. And when the dust settled and the investigations were complete, if the crew boss was wrong, they would have no longer been the crew boss and if the assistant and those who backed him were wrong, they would no longer have been employed.
It would have been that serious and unthinkable. That being said, it is also unthinkable that any hotshot crew boss I ever worked for, or myself for the seven years I was a hotshot crew boss, would have ever overridden anyone who knew what they were doing, meaning the senior crewmen, squad bosses and certainly the assistant the way Marsh did Steed who was expressing very real safety concerns is also unthinkable.
And as far as those who think “orders” are not given on wildfires, I would like to remind everyone I was sent home with my entire crew in the middle of a fire on a jet that was chartered for that express purpose because I refused a direct order from a sector boss and then a line boss and finally the fire boss. Orders are given on wildfires by those in command every time that tell their subordinates what to do. They are giving orders…not suggestions or requests. To suggest anything else is ridiculous.
Whoops, there are a couple of mistakes above but here is a bad one. “RTS was even given a long and specific list of very good questions from WTKTT that he was supposed to ask. And since his return to this thread after using my ticket to the party, getting him to even admit he went to the staff ride has been like pulling teeth and getting any information that will help us determine why the crew DIED has proven to be the impossible dream.
So…just in case I didn’t make it clear above, the Happy Jack Hotshots were a highly disciplined and quasi military crew but it had absolutely nothing to do with the military. If anything, you could say we were highly disciplined because we were more like an Indian War party riding with the tribal chief. Which I guess now that I think about it, our organization and discipline did have something to do with the military, just not the U.S. military that most people normally assume we were modeled after.
Thank you Gary. I have been trying to get on with my day but this RTS thing had not settled right even more so when common locals saw me today and they shared they saw people go in last Tuesday in restricted area so was it taken off restriction and I had to educate them it was a mandatory court beta staff ride for the loved ones and this person said he seen and heard conversation that he knew these people were not loved ones and so if any of you were at the Shrine area…this local described to me RTS so now it made me think of IM and his long term participation and I appreciated his comments over time because he took the time to share but when he was tied into the area of where Alan was..then it began to make sense what Elizabeth N said long ago and there are areas this site owes her an apology for she knew much before I…so I want to apologize to her for certain areas and she was banned so Gary is right some of us me included should be banned unless we can share it all and with sources and complete purity…But I lean on freedom of speech and ban none and read what you want when you arrive here…this is not Bill Gabberts structured blog…this is a. Freedom of Speech area to be you may it be pure…angles…agendas..
FUCK YOU GARY and the fucking white horse you road in on,———
Fuck that phony ass piece of crew you ran and all the rest of your Sagebrush police bullshit.
You fuck with a Oak Grove Hot shot you Fuck with ME..
You picked the right person because you would have been banned from the ride. But you gotta go ballistic so take you great fucking crew and Stick it where the sun don’t shine.
Gary is off the fucking rails and the rest of you think he is some fucking hero
GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK.
End of discussion.
Now…Bob. calm down. I didn’t include you because you have made other important contributions and observations to this effort other than just backing up RTS on this site.
You have said you don’t even remember him or what he looked like so many young men like him came and went. He is not exactly a founding member of the Oak Grove Ex-Hotshot Fraternity. Is he?
Yes he is part of the Fraternity. There for a Brother.
You started this fucking thing so you can take your Fucking Happy Jackoff Hot shots and Go back to mopping up the mess you created.
You included me when you went ballistic on RTS.
You should have found out more about what you were talking about before climbing RTS’s ass.
The Families as well as the directors of the ride laid down some rules RTS agreed to. Not giving him time to work through them
By calling him names did not help any.
Including WTKTT with all his pushing questions.
So back off or you can go to HELL. That is where I stand and ya I am Backing him if you have not figured that out yet how did you find arrow head thefts??????????
You jump when you should be paying attention and letting the information work its self out.
I don’t believe that’s the way you fought fire but may be I am wrong. Did you just bow you neck and do what you wanted?????????
I’m sorry Bob…that was just a little hard to follow. Riddle me this, what are you talking about?
Your opening statement after I asked asked you to calm down was: “Yes he is part of the Fraternity. There for a Brother.” Yet you don’t even remember him?
Sounds like a brother covering for brother no matter what. Thin green line? I do believe you are showing us an example of the greates barriers to truth at Yarnell. The circling of the wagons. It runs deep, wide and across generations then.
You say there were rules Fred had to agree to in order to participate? The first rules he agreed to were those from me or he wouldn’t have even been there. He didn’t have to agree to any rules from THEM.
The families could pick their support person and RTS was selected. The next best story coming out of the staff ride would have been NOT allowing a bonafide family support person to attend, which is why I almost did go.
But..you didn’t mention any of that and you want us to believe that THAT’S why he is ‘handling’ it the way he is. Fred is throwing shit out there – bits & pieces…period.
You say I didn’t give him the chance to ‘work through’ that obstacle. Why did Fred start saying shit like he knows these types of questions were asked but doesn’t ‘recall’ any answers…if the agreement he made is the problem, why does he make no mention of it. That would be a simple thing to do.
He was so arrogant and disrespectful he didn’t tell me he attended the staff ride. I waited for three days and then I finally broke down and had to ask him…what a TURD!
So I call bullshit! Does Fred like attention & drama? Are you and Fred both Drama Queens? Don’t try to impress me with super secret behind the scenes finagling that only you and your fuck buddy Fred are party to.
And yes Bob, I think you are a bigger apologist for the system than Fred is, but you do have some redeeming qualities. I haven’t been able to find any that Fred has…after three long years.
MESSAGE TO JOY – Now do you understand why I am not here to build my Christmas card list and make friends? A short time ago, Bob was wishing I had taken him with me Jeeping in Moab…now he wants me to go do things to myself that I don’t want to.
That’s the way it is in life, somebody is a “friend” only until you do something they don’t like and then POOF! And I have never let “friends” stand between me and getting the job done.
People like RTS and Bob are obstacles that need to be overcome…not friends.
Wow. I just got back. I did by chance bump into Dr. Leroy Anderson as he was wayside of highway 88 awaiting a ride.. I learned some information from him today and one thing there is this brotherhood but Dr. Lerke spoken with CBS Morgan Loew because he said he understood brotherhood but what he knew and others he could not go later to God with and reason he spoke aloud and because 19 men died and suicidal attempts some successful and many died since the fire and as a doctor and firefighter knew it was his RESPONSIBILITY to God and these small town communities. I am sorry there is this heat of a reaction but I can see both sides and that there need not be this kind of ache…yet so good to see two good men tee it up and get it out and I do see it that you are friends just one has stronger feelings of one another’s own perceptions which I understand both. I know you both are good good men and RTS too and that the gmhs would be so grateful for us not just buying into a narrative and I can see everyone has helped in their own way that none forgets these 20 men…remember its true when I say it has been such a honor to read all of your comments over the years even some in Spanish and Irish and Yoda…the line where the men went from black to canyon I will never get but the Libes here when crossed I do get..we need to tee it up and get it out but I know I trust RTS and Bob…yet from day one if I was in a room with Dr Yes Putnam John Dougherty Gary Olsen Norb Szczurek I would never have to sound record them for usually if I sound record its because I don’t comprehend and need to hear again so I don’t misquote but I know those men are straight up men and say stuff even if we did not agree at times I trust them and stand by them and I always felt Bob and RTS know the community I don’t know and for that I trust their comments and if I was in a deserted deaert and I saw Bob and RTS I would give them all my water for their journey because I know these good men thirst…for the same truths and clarity we all do…I just would of liked to know what 3a meant but eventually if I’m supposed to know God will lead it that way…I felt what I did but it does not mean I don’t respect them…These are good men here posting. The opposite of LOVE is not HATE it is indifferences and that’s okay to have indifference and still call a man or woman your true friend
Gary This has nothing to do with the system.
This has to do with RTS and yes I know him I speak to him 2 or 3 times a month and have for over 2 years.
Whens the last time we talked on a phone NEVER—–
This has to do with Past Oak Grove Hot Shots who I owe my respect to as a Brother Not you not others but Oak Grove first. You should understand that it like a Fraternity pre and past all who served on your crew you would stand up for..
May be you should look in the mirror and evaluate your self if you want friends then you need to treat them with the respect you expect.
The only obstacle here is your hate and disrespect for life and people around you.
Bob…I have all the friends I want or need. I just recognized very early on you would never be one of those. You are not a man of honor. A man of honor does not let personal relationship’s real or imagined stand between him doing the right thing thing.
You have proven here today for once and all without question that you can’t be trusted to do the right thing and you are a fraud and a phony.
You written for everyone to read that your personal relationship’s are the most important thing to you, more important than potentially saving young wildland firefighters lives in the future. I am ashamed of you and everything you stand for.
At least you are an honest dishonest man, unlike RTS who is a dishonest man who hides behind lies and deceit.
.
OK…I don’t really think you are an honest dishonest man, I just think you are so addled in the brain you didn’t stop to think about what you were writing and admitting about yourself before you hit “post comment.”
I think it has always been pretty clear to everyone reading this blog you are NOT the sharpest tool in the rack….know what I mean?
You little wimpy piece of shit. You came no where near my accomplishments in fire and you
think I know little or nothing. You Gary are an arrogant piece of work who spent more time playing BLM Cop. Get real Gary.
My friends are important to me You are not.
If you haven’t figured that out.
Tell the truth Gary
Bob Powers Said
———————————————————————-
The Families as well as the directors of the ride laid down some rules RTS agreed to.
———————————————————————-
I say….
>>
ANOTHER “Gag Order”?
Thou shalt not mention anything of the Ride, what was said, what WASN’T said, who said it, who didn’t say it, what the answers were, what lies were told, what you could infer, what our expressions were…..nothing? – Do NOT MENTION IT TO ANYONE?
ESPECIALLY those idiots over at IM?
Oh and by the way – you’re not allowed to tell anyone we’ve gagged you either.
……sign here please (no NOT you Donut). And have a nice day y’all..
>>
I don’t care who’s peeing higher than who right now, BUT…
What is this a Super-Injunction like we have in the UK?
I’d have agreed to all that, then blabbed the lot you you all anyway. They are hiding behind a Fairy Tale, Fiction if you like…. and it doesn’t sit right with me, this kinda thing needs to be exposed.
Well you are not really close to it but more of a request to be considerate of the families.
Did he or the Family members do tape recordings–NO
It was uncomfortable and there fore agreed upon.
He was there as a support person and also accompanied a group he was assigned to. Did some or all the families in his group request he not divulge their questions.
I don’t know maybe so.
Some were not happy he was there but because he was requested by Mrs. McKee they could not keep him from the Staff Ride.
He has already mentioned some of the ride it took some time and they did a really hard walk for some of the Families do to physical condition.
My understanding he was well received by those he was assigned with and they discussed many things and as he said asked good questions.
Maybe he dose not really have any thing new to give us.
I will say from the hart he told me nothing new that happened or any questions or answers that were not straight forward. Mrs. McKee had a hard time with the Hike and several shed some tears at the deployment site.
I understand the 10 and 18 & LCES was discussed at length at several stops.
If you thought any of the overhead that were there were going to admit or deny any wrong doing then you still have no grasp of what this Staff Ride was about.
Check out South Canyon Fire–They have done several Staff Rides there have they found Fault or assigned blame to the overhead there? Not to my knowledge……….
Thanks Otis. It is amazing how simple truths can be told from outside people who are without agendas, brotherhoods, and biased views to cloud their vision. It was the brotherhood that killed those men–trust those above you but they would kill you, then they would cover up the reasons why and give themselves awards so bad behavior looks to be good. Yet the public here in USA, movie directors, etc. if they are not blind, do turn a blind eye to the facts of what did really occur to cause the world’s worst slaughter of wild land fire fighters, even worse than storm king that killed 14.
If you don’t think we had stupidity after the fire, Dr. Anderson tells me that Yarnell Fire Department was awarded a nice Humvee 4×4 vehicle by the state. He believes it was so they would keep their mouths shut. It was however for their good fire fighting efforts–they failed to even respond to the fire when it could have easily been put out. More than that it is almost a useless item since it has no water tank, pump, or other. However it is painted up nicely and has the proud emblems signifying the official fireman’s Humvee. It would have been nicer to have a pumper job that actually could do some 4×4 wheeling to get to a lightening strike and spray water.
Anderson said it was slated for the old fire chief but the new one wound up with it. Maybe someone that reads this will tell me different and give me another version than that given by Anderson. The bad fire fighting efforts of the old Yarnell chief that resigned once his felony record involving the death of a child was exposed–and maybe since he neglected duty and knew that–Those neglectful duties should in no way be attributed to the new man Chief Ben Palm transplanted from Prescott Valley to here. He might fit the bill as a go getter–seems we have been hearing that he has been working his men, doing cleanup and defensible space. That is commendable and something the old chief neglected. He had a grant of I believe $15,000 to pay for a clean up a year before–Someone had posted that bulletin and a copy of the grant thing–but that old chief failed to use it. I suppose the work was more than he wanted to do. I know it is hard tedious word doing defensible space by chain saw and dragging brush to a chipper. Similar in a job to the line work of a wild land fire fighter doing line–a lot of firemen-women are not cut out do go past polishing their trucks.
Well God Bless Gary Freakin’ Olsen…the one & only true Ye Olde Magnificent Bastard!
My perception of the regular Hotshot culture matches up with what you say and no, I’ve never served on a hotshot crew, just worked with several of them and observed the way they operate.
When I first read the words pertaining to “one of the OPS SME’s said something to the effect of ‘we can’t/don’t ORDER anyone to do anything,” I just sat there in disbelief at the words. Do what? Ten Standard Fire ORDERS? But beyond that, do what? I’ll leave it that.
You have done a great service to current & future wildland firefighters and those that love them with this post, Gary. Thank you.
Woodsman
For those who want more info on the 10 Standard Orders go to Wildfire today.
Watch the video about 10 Min. Sinners and cool heads.
An interesting evaluation of the use of the Orders over the past 60 years……….
In the movie ‘Always” (1989), firefighters about to be overrun by the fire, holler “mayday, mayday, mayday” into the radio in an effort to obtain assistance.
Every actor in the movie knew what that meant, and responded accordingly.
Every person watching in the theater knew what that meant, without having to be told.
Twenty-seven years after wildland firefighters used it in the movie in an effort to save themselves, there is still no official ‘rescue call-out’ in the WFF world.
Implementing this universal terminology is one of the only (if not, THE only) thing(s) that could have been done immediately after the YHF that wouldn’t have cost one red cent, AND, of which, EVERYONE would already know the meaning after lifetimes of movie brainwashing. A few knowledgeable people in a room could hash-out usage guidelines in about a half hour. Simply, a no-brainer.
But, if nobody did anything wrong at the YHF, as the SAIR states, then it’s easy to see why nothing has changed.
If the feds can’t get off-the-dime on the simplest, no-cost ‘life-saving measures’, then God help us on ever getting the harder, less agreeable, and more expensive stuff accomplished.
And yes, I realize it was a ‘State” fire, but the feds lead the way on this sort of stuff.
Most (all) of you here are as frustrated as I am by the lack of change subsequent to the YHF. Yes, I realize this particular subject matter has been hashed-over before here on IM, but I’m simply venting now because I’m really pissed-off about this particular aspect..
There is simply no excuse for the inaction on this.
To any fed decision makers reading this: ‘Mayday, Mayday, Mayday’, simple enough, eh??
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on April 9, 2016 at 6:57 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The GMHS ‘completed handline’ section was still there, albeit faded and
>> somewhat grown over. This is normal on every wildland fire fatality site
>> and Staff Ride. It’s nature in progress.
>>
>> The saw cuts were still evident. Almost all Staff Rides have volunteers
>> that maintain the original fire handlines for future Staff Rides and Site Visits.
Okay. Thank you. But I think that means the answer to my original question is simply a “No”.
That there WAS no attempt, in-between the Alpha and the Beta ‘Staff Rides’, to actually RECUT the original ‘completed handline’ up there near the anchor point and Stands 3A and 3B.
One of the ‘complaints’ from particpiants in the ‘Alpha’ staff ride was that the original handline construction up there just wasn’t visible ENOUGH… and the rumor was that before the second Beta/Family Staff Ride ( held last Tuesday )… that there were actually going to send some crews up there to RECUT the handline so that it WOULD be ‘more visible’ to the ‘Family members’.
It sounds to me like you’re confirming that did NOT happen.
That the only thing left up there are the now-overgrown ‘remnants’ of the original handline work done on June 30, 2013.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Nothing that I recall about “they were going to protect the Ranch.”
>> Nor was there anything about “We have absolutely no idea why they
>> were moving” that I recall.
Well then… what WAS said at ‘Stand 5 – The deployment site” ( or at any of the other Stands ) regarding why there were 19 purple crosses there marking the places where 19 men died?
This was/is a ‘Staff Ride’ for a historic Wildland Firefighting fatality incident.
Are you saying that at NO POINT during this ‘Staff Ride’, was there ever even any ‘suggestion’ about what those men who DIED were doing there on the floor of that fuel-filled box canyon… or what they ( the Staff Ride authors themselves ) even THOUGHT they might have been trying to do?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Musser and Burfiend spoke about their roles and actions and recollections
>> that day. They spoke from their hearts and memory, nothing scripted, and
>> nothing from reference notes.
Did Musser mention ( or re-mention, as per his ADOSH interview ) that he actually did CALL Eric Marsh at exactly 3:42 PM to discuss his ( and Granite Mountain’s ) ‘availability’?
Did Burfiend mention ( or re-mention ) WHY he ended up ignoring the final, desperate radio calls for upwards of 2 minutes and 15 seconds that day?
He ( Musser ) originally tried to say it was because he thought it was JAGUAFAPTHPS.
( Just Another Ground Unit Asking For Air Support To Help Protect Structures ).
Did he offer that same explanation, even last Tuesday?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The family members asked them all very direct questions.
>> I do not recall what the ‘responses’ were.
If heard the actual ‘questions’ well enough to now say that you KNOW they were ‘direct questions’… then surely you must remember what some of them WERE?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> There was no anger at the families having to be on this ‘Staff Ride.’
>> They didn’t have to be there, they WANTED to be there. This was an
>> epic event, to have actually families participate in the actual development
>> of a Staff Ride.
Yes. ‘Epic’ in the sense that it was COURT-ORDERED.
The ONLY reason Arizona Forestry was having this ‘run’ of the ‘Staff Ride’ just for family members is because it was one of their REQUIRED OBLIGATIONS as part of a legal ‘settlement’ of 12 wrongful death lawsuits coming from those same ‘family members’.
But my original question came from something you previously stated below…
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The family members in general, reacted to this Staff Ride with mixed
>> emotions – some still very angry and upset and others more reserve.
On what, then, do you base your ‘observation’ that there
were “some still VERY ANGRY and UPSET”?
How did this manifest itself last Tuesday to the point where you would now be
reporting that is how ‘some of them felt’?
‘VERY ANGRY’ and ‘UPSET’ about…. WHAT?
Just the inconclusiveness of the original SAIR document itself?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Of course there were ample chances and opportunities for the family
>> members to ask questions throughout the Staff Ride.
>>
>> I do not recall what kinds of questions were asked.
>>
>> The Staff Ride Cadre and the SMEs were very sincere and made
>> every effort to answer them.
Okay… help me out with this one.
You say that you are SURE that the SMEs were “very sincere” and “made every effort to answer them” ( the questions being asked )…
…but you also say you can’t recall “what kind of questions were asked”?
How can you be so SURE they were “making every effort to anser the questions” and were also being “very sincere” with their answers… if you don’t even recall what the questions were?
Are you saying you were just ‘deducing’ their ‘thoroughness’ and ‘sincerity’ in answering
the questions just from the SOUND of their voices… but you still couldn’t make out
what they were actually SAYING… or what they were even ASKED?
WTKTT
I believe you are expecting way more than this Staff ride was ever going to produce.
I have said before and I will say again it was a show me trip. No one was going to come up with earth shacking information.
Family questions can get asked over and over usually many are general. Some are frustrated.
Some Family will never understand what happened. Some are personnel questions that deserve respect to not repeat to news media.
Having been there as a family member and a wild land fire fighter at the Rattle Snake staff ride I was at times upset and frustrated with the leaders and the answers. However I did not expect much else.
The First few years Storm King Mountain was no different.
As I said last month do not expect any more than a show me trip. Answer a lot of questions and move on. No time for a in-depth study with the time restraints.
Sonny just woke me reading here so since he woke me up.
If you wanted to be present at the staff ride and just be there taking it all in…First off I can see in group setting RTS not hearing it all but ain’t that the beauty of what John Dougherty carries along…sound recorder so yes Gary n wwtktt is right that RTS reporting here his staff ride experience did a great public disservice as the sair did and any loved one wants to walk it even if I am in current repsite call 480-280-5813 and state name n number and date you want to hike it. I know Jerry Pfingston took partial hike with us because that day many did not want to go the whole way but now RTS I was going to ask Brit…but since you went…the flags in the start before the old grader…what was those stands and comments and why did they stop at 3a and what did they define was 3a…prison crew or gmhs? And why does it stop there…why not show the rest after 3a? And when on two track above ds what did they say there. I know you have much more details so how come while in town did you not swing by at Sonny’s to talk private about hike because as I eyewitnesses we should be allowed on staff ride to see if it matched to what we saw being we were there at the scene not musser or Abel and where is frisby and mystery man on staff ride n donut. Back to sleep. Again I am not on IM to see what Sonny or others write so I cannot agree or disagree with the comments made lately. So if my name is used by others…not on to make sure its whatbI said or did or agree on and also Sonny has beliefs on fire that do not match mine on some areas…
and yes next time we see Dr. Ted Putnam I don’t need to have a copy or take a pic but I do want to lay eyes on his glove he found out there and see if it is one of my missing men’s working type glove that was leather and the back of leather (suede) and I should still have the other glove amongst my hiking stuff unless my husband saw one glove and tossed it- I doubt he would…but this does perk my interest because I was on the phone that 6-30-13 with my mother explaining “how do I do it, ma…Sonny wants to take a way I don’t..and letting her know I am in base of canyon and I do not have my eyes on the fire yet to take pics and it would be awhile” She said take the way you want and I began to split from Sonny and scale boulders and Sonny saw I was not budging and eventually went my way…I did gps the spot that happen to be the spot the men died that morning to later bring Sonny back there after the fire and in cooler months to show him why I did not want to go there…that morning was just turning from dark to dawn and I had no interest to battle that maze area with intertwined brush on that steep grade with wildlife/snakes…but yes I did lose my glove and noted it was amiss when I got my second water bottle out of backpack before meeting Marsh that day. SEE…these are reasons investigators should keep eyewitnesses in the loop because what they might have found was my missing glove not the mens…and also when I was mad at Sonny mid July going to hike out another way I was going down the Congress side and I found that yellow bladder bag tucked between two boulders tight so did the helicopter drop it there- did that mean one of the men put it there—things like this is why I was greatly disappointed in Brit R. because he is about to make the SAIR his guided tour as what it was and it is obvious there is more than 3A…and what happened at station/stand 4/5? I liked Brit’s video on youtube UNTIL WWTKTT stated he is the one running the Staff Ride so I quickly called and left messages and he got an email too- “no replies”
Why is it he and RTS cannot make the time on something important as a staff ride to walk alone with the hikers and see it…Norb and many many others can tell you until you see and hear it with us there…you will never get a truer account from the people watching it right there not Abel and Musser UNLESS either one of those men want to lay claims to being the mystery man with Marsh that day that I saw and photographed…I can tell you where I saw Donut and Frisby that day and see if it matches to what they said—so yeah I am disappointed in RTS to drive down here and not even think for a moment a man in his position could stick down his drawers a sound recorder not known to the people at staff ride so that you could later recollect that day and what was said because it was on sound recorder- you have every right to record an event so later you can go over it with yourself so you never misquote another and if a person challenged a quote you have the private record of it- that sound recording did not have to be public but being vague like you are I can only cough it up you were not mindful and focused to how important your role was that day-so yes even though I am not coming to IM and Sonny woke me up today over IM—I am not coming back to see what one said in reply but I firmly stand by this..RTS role that day failed the world and his public service to bring clarity to areas in hiding…I do not need to know personal perceptions or grief or what one said in reaction but I do need to know what was said in the start before the old grader and what was their take on 3a and what happened to the rest…why pick from 3a or 4/5? If the trail is going to be public one day than why not place that LOOKOUT bronze statue exactly where I saw Donut that day vs above the Deployment Site. Also when at old grader why not take that area- the trail up by the old mine and see the helispot/lightning strike/Saturday’s prison crews hard work done…than drop down to 3a to the area men worked and lunch spot than head to DS vs making a choice…3a or 4/5?
I stepped away from this but I felt this was worthy to be noted on the glove and my disappointment in RTS role that day and his sharing like he is—I mean most of us here have one another’s private information so you do not have to air it public at this point and can share to the dedicated ones here who have continued to be here since the start—that includes J. Stout who recently felt offended that I was “calling the person out” when I was just trying to prove to Sonny that Stout is more than likely a woman as he uses Stout in a masculine form. So they took the role on being offended when I was just trying to point it out to Sonny-
Sonny and I are not always in each other’s space so there are times you can sense on IM that I write to Sonny here because he is more here than anywhere-
And if RTS drove one time in Glen Ilah than he would know where Sonny lives because it says Tex, Agnes and his sidekick Joy on gate and he talks about chickens here so look for the chicken signs or even the DEFENSIBLE SPACE call Andrew signs…no one can say you can’t find Sonny…he is right there with how many vehicles amongst the property…
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/69/b1/9e/69b19e290d7c24fd54bbe5e340bbd558.jpg
I stand by it is wrong to not interact with eyewitnesses when creating a very important event for the loved ones and future and current firefighters called “staff ride” and thinking to use third party information-
yet RTS can stand there at the staff ride and now comes here and gives tidbits vs purity…I do not care if I stand alone on this but I stand firm the current tidbits is no better than the end results called the SAIR
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=imgres&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwjj1r3GxoTMAhUJroMKHaAaBUcQjBwIBA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fshelleyhallmark.files.wordpress.com%2F2014%2F02%2Flionchange-quote.jpg%3Fw%3D645&psig=AFQjCNFnGPJvfa6pegkQAObTsEVNph-cAA&ust=1460394217268112
Hey Gary..saw this lion and thought of you Leo…
STOBS topic-
I fell on my ribs on those stobs and injured myself in July 2013.
In my opinion if you look at the angle—all over the place and not aligned—makes sense to be a burn pattern—not stobs cut—and I am not a firefighter but I can point that out on staff ride… I am still bewildered on this deployment zone moment—what does it entail to burn out around them and move brush—has anyone talked about that here- how that movement was time stamp by looking at the aftermath photos—would the fire just be tiny behind them of bushes burning like you see when doing prescribed burns or with the winds we saw they seem to be felt high not in the washes below so I am trying to comprehend that fire coming in the canyon meeting up to their fire they did and any online samples of what that would look like—I imagine a wave effect because that is how I saw it at 12:14-12:28 when it took over that one mountain.
Thanks Joy, that’s a very good and appropriate quote.
WTKTT pointed out that this was a mandatory staff ride ordered by the judge. No matter how much you might have queried these staffers they would not about to be giving out anything they did not want people to hear. So RTS did just about right since he could hear no evil, see no evil, and speak no evil; however, I am quite sure he could smell plenty evil. In defense of RTS, I believe he knows a hell of a lot more than those fellows he was riding with were about to say.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 10, 2016 at 7:15 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT
>>
>> I believe you are expecting way more than this Staff ride
>> was ever going to produce.
Nope.
I was just asking RTS to ‘clarify’ some statement he has already made as a participant in last Tuesday’s ‘Beta’ Staff Ride.
I appreciate whatever he has to say about it… but some of the things he HAS said just don’t ‘add up’… such as
1. Saying he is sure that family members were asking (quote) “direct questions”… but then saying he has no idea what the ‘questions’ really were.
2. That he is SURE that circa last Tuesday… *some* ‘family members’ are still (quote) “VERY ANGRY” and (quote) “UPSET”… but he has failed to clarify either WHAT they are ‘very angry’ and/or ‘upset’ about… or how that manifested itself last Tuesday to the point where he would be sure enough to make that statement.
3. Saying that the ‘Staff Ride Cadre’ *and* the SMEs (quote) “made every effort” to answer questions coming from family members… and they were (quote) “very sincere” with their responses… but he’s now asking us to believe that he has arrived at those conclusions without even knowing what the questions OR the responses were.
So none of the above ‘adds up’. It’s in the ‘not credible’ range, and deserves some clarification.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I have said before and I will say again it was a show me trip.
>> No one was going to come up with earth shacking information.
I would agree with the second part of your statement… and yes… I’m sure there were no ‘earth shattering’ revelations last Tuesday… but I totally disagree with the first part of your statement. You can describe other ‘Staff Rides’ all you want. THIS ‘Staff Ride’ is happening on its accelerated schedule as the direct result of a legal settlement of 12 multi, multi, multi millions dollar ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits against the agency that was running that workplace where all 19 men died… and it was supposed to be much, much than just some ‘dog and pony’ ‘show me trip’.
MY expectations don’t matter.
What I’d like to know is if it ‘met the expectations’ of the ‘plaintiff’s of the multi, multi, multi million dollars lawsuits ( because it was SUPPOSED to ).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Family questions can get asked over and over usually
>> many are general. Some are frustrated.
>> Some Family will never understand what happened.
>> Some are personnel questions that deserve respect
>> to not repeat to news media.
I understand. But it’s one thing to just say you have no idea what questions were asked and/or what responses were given because you simply didn’t hear them.
It’s another thing entirely to say you are SURE people were “answering the questions thoroughly and sincerely”… but then still ask us to believe you reached that conclusion WITHOUT hearing either the questions and/or the responses.
RTS is trying to get us to believe the ‘latter’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Having been there as a family member and a wild land fire
>> fighter at the Rattle Snake staff ride I was at times upset
>> and frustrated with the leaders and the answers.
Okay. Here’s YOUR chance to say WHY.
What was making you ‘upset’ and/or ‘frustrated’ during that ‘Staff Ride’?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> However I did not expect much else.
Well… YOU didn’t have a Court-approved lawsuit settlement backing you up… but you still had a RIGHT to have ‘expectations’. You know that, right?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> As I said last month do not expect any more than a show me trip.
>> Answer a lot of questions and move on. No time for a in-depth
>> study with the time restraints.
Nobody is talking about ‘in-depth studies’ being presented at the ‘Stands’. Of course there isn’t time during a one-day hike to do that. As the ‘What is a Staff Ride’ document itself says at the NWCG “Wildfire Lessons Learned Site”… the ‘in-depth’ study WORK is supposed to have ALREADY BEEN DONE by the people authoring the ‘Staff Ride’ and presented to potential Staff Ride participants as part of the ‘prep-work’ and the ‘homework’ that THEY are supposed to do before even showing up for the ‘Staff Ride’.
We’ve all seen the actual April/Beta ‘Staff Ride Guide’ now.
It’s an absolute joke.
It presents no ‘in-depth’ study information at all and is based totally on the highly criticized SAIT investigation and never either references or even acknowledges any other official investigation, or independent research done since the SAIR was released.
As per the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’ itself… the ONLY two documents being listed as ‘study material’ for participants in the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride are…
1. The original SAIR document.
2. Kyle Dickman’s book. “On the Burning Edge”.
That’s it. They ( the authors of this ‘Staff Ride’ ) are trying to say that is the totality of information that anyone needs to be familiar with prior to going on the official “Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride”.
So yea… I still wonder what the ‘family members’ actually think of this ‘product’ that were promised in exchanges for graciously agreeing to ‘settle’ their multi, multi, multi million dollars lawsuits.
So since you made a total circle above. Let me just say maybe it is really up to the Families to determine what to tell the media. It is up to them to discuss this Staff Ride. RTS and the Family members he was with had a right to ask him not to share their feelings or even record the entire proceedings. He went as a support person to Mrs. McKee, Not as a news media person.
I do know he was in a group of several different family members some of which have always been out spoken about what happened to there Loved ones.
What he has given us on here is all he feels comfortable with sharing.
RTS did not go as our representative or IM’s.
Pushing RTS for more information will not get what you want if he made a personal agreement with the Family members. You all know what RTS has done in the past. He respects his commitment to his sources.
For the Families this was a chance to walk the path of their loved ones and ask questions. Did they get all the answers NO. Did they learn any thing new Probably not.
The hard questions will be asked by the Fire people in their Staff rides.
THIS WAS A SHOW ME TRIP FOR THE BENIFIT OF THE FAMILIES
–BASIC– WILD LAND FIRE INFORMATION AND DISCUSSION.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS AT THE LEVEL OF THOSE THAT WERE THERE.
Maybe some of the other staff rides will have more news articles ???????
Question Bob.
Did the world mourn your father.. That fire any other fire like yhf? These people were all mourning and it caught the world’s attention like I never saw before…so question is did this staff ride provide clarity RTS…or just more confusion and questions.
Bob a question to you…wwtktt did not get in private a discussion from RTS on staff ride? If so than I can understand the support and understanding if u had private discussion… But I stand with wwtktt that saying what RTS said public for the world leads to more confusion and questions… Also I came on to quickly say the memorial trail people…you are doing a very nice job and in it I see you discovered a vein if gold ore…
YES the amount of out pouring and letters and cards my mother received were un believable. The People he worked with in the Logging industry on the Plumas and Mendocino were unbelievable and very shocked.
Also the other 14 came from a Missionary camp with local ties to the community it was a huge shock to the area around Willows and Sacramento California and the Quincy and Greenville area.
There were 26 children left Fatherless as well.. My Father was taken home to a small town he grew up in to be buried. Tryon Oklahoma. They did not have room in the Church for the Service attendees. It was a shock to that community as well. and they were only grieving one of the 15. It was the biggest number of Wild Land fire fatality’s until Yarnell for 60 years Rattle Snake Fire was the biggest FS Fatality fire in the US since the 1910 Idaho Fire.
I think there was some clarity for the Families as well as questions still unanswered. The same questions we still have.
You have contact with Mr. McKee have you talked to him?
My questions about staff ride had to do with I was eyewitness and want to make sure these folks who raise up kids without a father are being told facts so my question again is what does 3a represent for staff ride and why omit the other areas and what was said of why they went from the black all the way to 4/5?
Before this fire that Weavers was my peace and the wildlife were my stuff I thought about when hiking but I hike it after all I can think of is all the information out for these kids who lost their father. So my question are not personal but what is 3a?
This is confusing.
First Gary O says this to RTS:
‘Are you going to make me regret how much fucking trouble I went to to set you up as an source of information to attend the staff ride as a snitch. Do you know snitches belong in ditches? WTF? You rat bastard! Pay up!’
Then Bob said:
‘RTS did not go as our representative or IM’s.’
Which is it? Did this RTS person go as a snitch or not? Why would the state allow this especially on the family staff ride? Does RTS ‘work’ for the State like some kind of double agent? What the hell?
Bob also said:
‘He went as a support person to Mrs. McKee, Not as a news media person.’
What I hear is this RTS person accompanied McKee as a support person but when she couldn’t make the hike and also emotionally broke down he kept going on with the staff ride. How much support was given there for her in her emotionally weak state? And then RTS comes to IM and dangles information without the full facts. Can’t have it both ways people.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 11, 2016 at 8:04 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> So since you made a total circle above. Let me just say
>> maybe it is really up to the Families to determine what
>> to tell the media. It is up to them to discuss this Staff Ride.
>>
>> RTS and the Family members he was with had a right to
>> ask him not to share their feelings or even record the entire
>> proceedings. He went as a support person to Mrs. McKee,
>> Not as a news media person.
Am I the only one who thinks I’m now reading a ‘press release’ coming directly from Arizona Forestry itself?
>> Bob Power also said…
>>
>> I do know he was in a group of several different family
>> members some of which have always been out spoken
>> about what happened to there Loved ones.
Ah… so now we know that even YOU know more about what happened last Tuesday. Terrific.
Are you suggesting the ‘groups’ for last Tuesday’s ‘Staff Ride’ were actually ORGANIZED to segregate/separate those family members who have been ‘outspoken about what happened’… and those who have NOT?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> What he has given us on here is all he feels comfortable
>> with sharing.
Is that just more of the ‘press release’?
Are you his ‘agent’ now?
If it’s that simple… why doesn’t he just say so himself?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> RTS did not go as our representative or IM’s.
You will note ( down below ) that there was not one single question directed to RTS about last Tuesday’s Staff Ride until HE, himself, pressed the keys that ‘announced’ he had, in fact, attended it.
If he wasn’t ready to be asked even the simplest of questions about his participation… then why even mention it?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Pushing RTS for more information will not get what
>> you want if he made a personal agreement with
>> the Family members. You all know what RTS has
>> done in the past. He respects his commitment to
>> his sources.
Well… I have some NEWS for the ‘family members’.
If they really are trying to now ‘comment’ on the ‘content’ of this “Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride” and somehow provide ‘input’ that will ‘change the content’ of it… then that is PUBLIC INFORMATION… and will be available to anyone with a simple Arizona Open Records request.
This ‘Staff Ride’ is not just another ‘secret society’ thing… like some kind of ‘secret’ Masonic Temple ceremony.
It is all being paid for with PUBLIC MONEY… and the PUBLIC has the right to know what’s influencing its development and what is actually being SAID ‘out there’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> For the Families this was a chance to walk the path of
>> their loved ones and ask questions. Did they get all
>> the answers NO. Did they learn any thing
>> new Probably not.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The hard questions will be asked by the Fire people
>> in their Staff rides.
Many HARD questions were ALREADY asked by the ‘Fire people’ who participated in the February 18 ‘Alpha’ Staff Ride… and MANY criticisms were leveled at this OMNA International company’s ‘first draft’ of the ‘Staff Ride’. SOME of those ‘hard questions’ and ‘suggestions’ ended up changing the content of the ‘Staff Ride Guide’ between the ‘Alpha’ and the ‘Beta’… but many of the ‘suggestions’ from the ‘Fire People’ were totally IGNORED by Arizona Forestry, OMNA International, and the USFS “Wildland Lessons Learned” center employees.
Go back to Joun Dougherty’s article published just before last week’s ‘Staff Ride’ and take a look at BOTH of the ‘Guides’ ( the February ‘Alpha’ and then the April ‘Beta’ ). You can see the difference… but you still won’t see evidence of any ‘hard questions’ being asked.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> THIS WAS A SHOW ME TRIP FOR THE BENIFIT OF
>> THE FAMILIES –BASIC– WILD LAND FIRE INFORMATION
>> AND DISCUSSION. QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS AT
>> THE LEVEL OF THOSE THAT WERE THERE.
No. The ‘product’ and the ‘presentations’ that were made during last week’s ‘Beta’ Staff Ride were not ‘tailored’ just for ‘family members’. The product they saw and heard is the ACTUAL inline development of the product that is destined to reside at the actual USFS “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center”.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Maybe some of the other staff rides will have more
>> news articles ???????
I think you can bet on it… especially the one that is still scheduled to take place on the actual day ( June 30, 2016 ) when the new Arizona State Park is DEDICATED and OPENED TO THE PUBLIC.
Correction for the post above…
I typed ‘Musser’ in a place I should have type ‘Burfiend’.
That one part of the post above should have read like this…
—————————————————————————-
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Musser and Burfiend spoke about their roles and actions and recollections
>> that day. They spoke from their hearts and memory, nothing scripted, and
>> nothing from reference notes.
Did Musser mention ( or re-mention, as per his ADOSH interview ) that he actually did CALL Eric Marsh at exactly 3:42 PM to discuss his ( and Granite Mountain’s ) ‘availability’?
Did Burfiend mention ( or re-mention ) WHY he ended up ignoring the final, desperate radio calls for upwards of 2 minutes and 15 seconds that day?
He ( Burfiend ) originally tried to say it was because he thought it was JAGUAFAPTHPS.
( Just Another Ground Unit Asking For Air Support To Help Protect Structures ).
Did he offer that same explanation, even last Tuesday?
———————————————————————————-
Followup…
It was in the orginal SAIR itself where the SAIT team was making an attempt to explain why Burfiend didn’t respond to the desperate radio calls from Granite Mountain for at least 2 minutes and 15 seconds.
The SAIR, itself, stated that John Burfiend thought the radio traffic coming from Granite Mountain at 1639 was just (quote) “one of the structure protection units calling to request a retardant drop”.
From PDF page 32 of the SAIR…
————————————————————–
“Breaking in on Arizona 16, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of the flaming front.”
Following this is a very broken, with wind in the microphone, transmission: “Air-to-ground 16, Granite Mountain, Air Attack, how do you read?”
Due to poor reception, ASM2 can only understand fragments of these communications. The fire’s rapid advance toward Yarnell is generating a lot of radio traffic about structure protection so ASM2 assumes the broken and unclear transmission is one of the structure protection units calling to request a retardant drop. He does not suspect it’s Granite Mountain since they were safe when he talked to them earlier.
———————————————————————-
However… these ‘thoughts’ and/or ‘quotes’ being directly attributed to John Burfiend in the SAIR are NOWHERE TO BE FOUND in the actual SAIT ‘Interview Notes’ with Burfiend himself.
So unless the SAIT team was just ‘making that up’ and ‘putting that thought’ into Burfiend’s head all their own ( just like they have appeared to have done with Brian Frisby and his ‘thoughts’ about a ‘ranch to the north’ )… then this is just MORE proof that there was always much, much more to the SAIT’s actual interviews with key witnesses than has ever been revealed, even in their own official ‘Interview Notes’ document.
So that’s why the ‘request for clarification’ to RTS up above on THIS one point.
John Burfiend stopped flying shortly after Yarnell and took a ‘desk job’ at ( of all places ), the actual USFS Research Facility that is the actual ‘home’ of the USFS “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center”.
He has since been promoted to DIRECTOR of that Facility, which houses the actual ‘Servers’ for the “Wildland Lessons Learned Center”.
It is known that John Burfiend is being used as an SME for this “Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride”, and has been physically present at BOTH the February 18 ‘Alpha’ Ride and last Tuesday’s ‘Beta’ Ride.
It is also known that one of the ‘audi/visuals’ being used at ‘Stand 5 – The Deployment Site’, is that they actually PLAY the Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd’s original “Helmet Cam” video which captured that final radio exchange between Granite Mountain, John Burfiend, and OPS1 Todd Abel.
So I was just wondering if John Burfiend is still ‘sticking to the story’ that was originally published in the SAIR about him not even KNOWING it was ‘Granite Mountain’ calling him, and that he ( according to the SAIR ) just thought it was just another ‘someone’ from a structure protection group trying to get his attention and ask for a retardant drop…
…and that is why he was ignoring those calls from those desperate men for a full 2 minutes and 15 seconds… before OPS1 Todd Abel had to ORDER him to respond.
Or does he have a ‘new’ story now… that doesn’t even match the original SAIR?
You are Kidding Right WTF do you expect?????????????
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 11, 2016 at 8:06 am
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> You are Kidding Right WTF do you expect?????????????
Someone who is now KNOWN to have participated in last Tuesday’s official ‘Yarnell Hill Fire (Beta) Staff Ride” came on here and made some comments about what went on ‘out there’ last Tuesday.
I am simply asking more questions about that person’s admitted participation… and asking for some clarification on some of the things he already said that don’t really ‘add up’ ( like pretending to have not heard questions and/or responses but still, somehow, being absolutely sure they were ‘direct questions’ and were also answered ‘thoroughly and sincerely’ ).
This ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’ is being developed on an ‘accelerated’ schedule ( as compared to Staff Rides for other historic Wildland Fire Fatality Incidents ) because of a COUIRT-APPROVED legal ‘settlement’ agreement involving 12 ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits brought by family members of the deceased.
This ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’ is also being completely ‘paid for’ using TAXPAYER DOLLARS.
And… as SHOULD be the case… ALL of the documents and materials and content of this ‘Staff Ride’ are available to anyone via just a simple ‘Arizona Open Records’ request.
There was even this item ( among MANY ) in the settlement agreement itself… codifying what Arizona Forestry MUST continue do to fulfill it’s obligations under this ‘settlement agreement’ and escape going BACK to court over the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits…
———————————————————————-
13. ASFD will continue to comply fully with Arizona’s Public Records law by making all non-privileged documents available to requestors.
———————————————————————–
NOTE: The ‘non-privileged’ reference above is only referring to what could normally ever be claimed as ‘exempt’ under any ‘Open Records’ or ‘FOIA’ exemption privilege… such as ‘Attorney/Client’ privilege. It doesn’t mean Arizona Forestry can ever decide for itself what THEY think is a ‘privileged communication’. Doesn’t work that way.
RTS has already confirmed WHO the SMEs were on the ‘Staff Ride’.
RTS has already confirmed that they WERE ‘speaking’ at the ‘Stands’.
That is NOT ‘PRIVATE INFORMATION’… it is ‘PUBLIC INFORMATION’.
And what these people are also SAYING ( to participants ) as part of this totally taxpayer funded operation, scripted or not, is also ‘PUBLIC INFORMATION’.
I’m sorry if even the family members themselves didn’t realize this fact when they agreed to enter into the settlement agreement, but its’ the tuth.
If even the ‘family members’ are now ‘actively participating’ in this endeavor totally funded with PUBLIC money… then even what THEY are saying in an an attempt to influence the final ‘product’ is accessible via Arizona Open Records laws.
There is also NOTHING in the final settlement agreement that establishes, in any way, shape or form, any kind of GAG ORDER with regards to any participation in either the promised day-long Q/A session… OR the ‘Staff Rides’ themselves.
As per the legal settlement agreement itself… ANY family member ( or their own chosen/designated support person(s) ) is FREE TO TALK about anything and everything that takes place during either the day-long Q/A session… OR any of the ‘Staff Rides’.
So… some of us would like to know what’s ‘going down’.
Example: If OPS2 Paul Musser is standing there ‘talking’ at the old-grader… I want to know what he is SAYING.
I want to know ( as I asked above ) if he is just sticking to the stories being told about him in the original SAIR… or if he is now ‘contradicting’ that document and saying something different.
It’s really a pretty simple question. Why all the fuss?
**
** THE GPS COORDINATES FOR THE ORIGIN OF THE FIRE ( REDUX )
>> On March 28, 2016 at 9:43 pm, WTKTT said…
>>
>> I don’t have the list in front of me… but the ‘remains’ of MANY of the 19 Granite
>> Mountain Hotshots were all ‘flown home’… and they were actually ‘buried’ back
>> where they came from.
>>
>> That ‘area’ at the Pioneer Cemetery is just designed to make you THINK
>> they are ALL actually buried there together.
>>
>> They’re NOT.
>>
>> YAOIS ( Yet Another Old Irish Saying )…
>> Fiú i bás mheabhlaireacht minic
>> “Even in death there is often deception”
>> On March 29, 2016 at 2:01 pm, Charlie ( Sonny ) responded…
>>
>> Thanks for pointing that out WTKTT.–I would have thought they were
>> all there at the cemetery. It is similar to co ordinates given describing
>> the location where the fire started–miles away and to the east of the
>> Weaver’s from my GPS. Absolutely off, but where it originated does
>> not seem to have been checked out or possibly the person that posted
>> those co-ordinates made error since actually the latitude would have been
>> approximately right. But longitude took me east from the two track several
>> miles. That fire started to the west of that old gold mine that is above the
>> old grader, That gold mine would be maybe a hundred yards south of the
>> latitude line but then the fire would have had to been perhaps between
>> 50 to 100 yards to the west of the top of the Weavers.
>> On April 8, 2016 at 10:21 pm, Charlie ( Sonny ) also said…
>>
>> Gary, I had a nice long chat with Ted tonight. He said you and he worked
>> the Battlement fire together. He said he learned a lot from you on that fire
>> that cost three lives. Mentioned that Mann Gulch, Battlement, Storm King
>> and Yanell have a common theme in many ways. One thing was working
>> uphill toward a fire that is down hill from you. He was mentioning how the
>> Mann Gulch had crosses making the deaths of some a quarter mile away
>> from where they actually happened. I forgot to mention that the coordinates
>> given by WTKTT that he got off records is about 2.5 miles east of where
>> the actual strike took place. Of course that could be just error of writing
>> them down, but then what is more fundamental in an investigation than
>> trying to determine the exact location of the beginning of the fire?
** THE SHORT STORY ( ANSWER )…
The GPS coordinates that I gave you back in Chapter 19, as per the information listed at the very top of the Yarnell Dispatch Log as the ‘origin of the fire’… were/are ( still ) CORRECT.
Here are the DECIMAL GPS values for the estimated ‘origin’ of the fire…
34.22833, -112.7915
Just ‘cut and paste’ that line above ( including the comma ) into the ‘Search bar’ of ‘Google Maps’, hit ENTER… and a map of the anchor point area will appear with a ‘little red balloon’ showing at those exact coordinates.
The fire is ‘assumed’ to have started right there where that ‘red balloon’ will be showing… about 150 feet west of the two-track road up there near the ‘anchor point’.
The ‘clickable link’ down below will also do the same thing.
Takes you straight into Google Maps, showing a ‘red balloon’ up there near the anchor point where the origin of the fire is/was ‘assumed’ to be.
I can’t explain what might have happened with the GPS unit you might have been using that day to help find those coordinates. Maybe that unit wasn’t correctly interpreting DECIMAL GPS coordinates, or something.
** THE LONG STORY ( ANSWER )…
Excerpts from that original posting made back in Chapter XIX ( 19 ) of this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-325207
———————————————————————————————-
>> On February 7, 2016 at 11:29 pm, WTKTT said…
>>
>> Reply to Sonny post on February 7, 2016 at 9:24 am
>>
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> I saw no mention of finding the exact spot where the lightening struck that started
>> this fire. Considering that the annals of fire fighting disasters will put this at the top
>> of the list as one of the Worlds greatest avoidable fire fighting disaster, we would
>> want photos of that spot. Because of the historical significance of the Yarnell Wild
>> Fire and because it is purported that men were at the site within an hour after it
>> started, we need to find that exact spot the lightening struck.
>>
>> This information might be available. If so no mention has been made of it
>> anywhere I know of.
Given the absence of any PHOTOS from Friday afternoon, June 28, 2013, the best evidence that exists for the ACTUAL ‘origin’ of the fire are those GPS coordinates that were ‘called in’ by Air Attack Bob Travis, after he ‘flew the fire’ on Friday afternoon, just 1 hour and 24 minutes after it was first reported.
Here is the very first report of the fire, as per the ‘Dispatch Records’…
From PDF page 14 of the ‘I-Dispatch Records.pdf’ document…
————————————————————————————————–
Entry Date/Time: 06/28/2013 17:40:58 ( 5:40:58 PM, Friday, June 28, 2016 )
From: CON To: CH
Details: ACTUAL VISUAL OF LIGHTNING STRIKE ON YARNELL HILL WITH 3 CONFIRMED CALLS BEST ACCESS WILL BE THE TOWN OF YARNELL TOWNSHIP AND RANGE IS 10N 5W SECTION 20
————————————————————————————————–
They had no GPS coordinates at first. Just an estimated ‘Township’ and ‘Range’, which turned out to be WAY OFF. That was a spot SOUTH of Yarnell and almost towards Congress… which happened to be on BLM land.
That is why there was that ‘dual response’ to the fire on Friday from both BLM representative Bruce Olsen and Arizona Forestry duty officer Russ Shumate. There was confusion about whether it was on BLM land or State Land… so BOTH of them responded ( on Friday afternoon ).
Bob Travis was the Air Attack flying what was left of the ‘Doce’ fire up near Prescott that afternoon… and he was asked ( by Russ Shumate ) to ‘fly down’ to Yarnell to take a look at this ‘lightning strike’ on Friday afternoon.
He ( Bob Travis ) did that… only 1 hour and 24 minutes after the fire was first reported.
At 7:05:49 PM on Friday evening, June 28, 2016… the following ‘actual’ coordinates for the 5:40:58 PM lightning strike were reported and officially appeared in the Yarnell Fire ‘Dispatch Log’…
—————————————————————————-
Entry Date/Time: 06/28/2013 19:05:49
From: Steve
To: PDC WR
Details: Lat Long 34 13.7 x 112 47.5. fire plots on state 0.25 to 0.50 acres. 80% is out and is active on one corner. low spread potential no values @ risk and 88P is talking to 1-4
——————————————————————————
That corresponds to GPS ‘Decimal’ values…
34.22833, -112.7915
This MATCHES EXACTLY the point that would then (eventually) be listed as the ‘Actual’ original location of the fire at the top of the Dispatch logs, which was…
As per the top of PDF page 16 of the ‘I-Dispatch Records.pdf’ file…
————————————————————————————
Actual Fire Start Location ( Confirmed 07/02/2013 15:35 ):
Lat: 34°, 13.698″, Lon: 112°, 47.49″, T10N, R5W, NENE Sec 8
————————————————————————————
Decimal GPS for ‘Actual’ fire start location is ALSO…
34.2283, -112.7915
I don’t know what the ‘Confirmed 07/02/2013 15:35′ entry means. It might mean that someone did something to actually CONFIRM Bob Travis’ intial coordinates ( Friday afternoon ) on July 2, 2013, either by going up there themselves or just confirming that with HIM, or maybe even ‘confirming’ those coordinates with the Lewis Crew, who would be up there the next morning ( Saturday morning ).
If you just ‘cut and paste’ that line above with those coordinates ( including the comma ) into the Search bar of Google Maps… you will see a little ‘red balloon’ on that exact spot up there just to the west of the two-track on the Weavers.
OR… just click the following link and you’ll see the same thing…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013'41.9%22N+112%C2%B047'29.4%22W/@34.2283044,-112.7936887,766m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0
Obviously Air Attack Bob Travis did not LAND up there and verify the EXACT spot the lightning struck when he first flew the fire on Friday afternoon… but these coordinates have to be very, very close. They DO match other photographic evidence from BLM representative Dean Fernandez that was taken first thing the next morning.
So I would guess close enough to be within 20 or 30 feet of where the lightning actually struck that Friday afternoon. Maybe less. Might actually be ‘spot on’.
——————————————————————————————————-
Yes it could be that the GPS unit I had was off. It would be correct if the balloon is west of the two track about 150 ft. Where I was at on the two track was about right for longitude but then latitude was way off and I did follow it east thinking that the strike might have been some east of the two track. If I can get to it after some fence building I will turtle myself up there again since 150 ft. west of where I was on the two track is easy enough. It would be nice to have a photo of the exact place lightening struck considering that this is the worlds worst fire disaster and screw up in at least the past 50 years. History books need a photo of that exact spot..
In the ADOSH notes from their first interviews with the members of the Yarnell Fire Department… it specifically says that at the very START of the interview with ( then ) YFD Chief Koile… he handed ADOSH a photograph that was taken just minutes after the lightning strike… showing exactly where the bolt struck.
The photo was supposedly taken from the parking log of the YFD station itself, but also supposedly showed clearly where the lightning had struck.
That photograph never even surfaced as part of the ADOSH investigation material.
They might still have it… but it will probably take another ‘Arizona Open Records’ request to ‘pop it loose’.
There is no official evidence that points to the SAIT investigators also having a ‘copy’ of this photo of Koile’s… but it also stands to reason that he DID, also, supply THEM with a copy of the same photograph.
Followup…
From the post back in Chapter XIX ( 19) entitled…
** YARNELL FIRE CHIEF JIM KOILE TOOK A PHOTO OF THE FIRE JUST NINE
** MINUTES AFTER THE LIGHTNING STRIKE… AND HE GAVE IT TO ADOSH.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-325390
Other than the photo that Joy and Sonny say a citizen took of the original lighting strike fire… there is at least ONE other KNOWN PHOTOGRAPH that was taken by a fire department employee.
Yarnell Fire Chief Jim Koile apparently took a photo of the fire just 9 ( NINE ) minutes after the original lightning strike… and he gave a copy of it to ADOSH.
From ADOSH document…
“L3419 Notes redacted.pdf”
On PDF page 2 ( of 10 pages )…
—————————————————————————————————-
7/18/2013 – An opening conference was conducted with the Yarnell Fire District/Yarnell Fire Department on July 18, 2013 at 1005 by Marshall Krotenberg and Bruce Hanna with Fire Chief Jim Koile. Chief Koile completed an information sheet and provided a photo that he took of the lightning caused fire at the time of the lightning strike.
—————————————————————————————————-
If it was taken from the Yarnell Fire Dept. parking lot then it would give only a smoke column since the actual spot I should think it would be out of sight from Yarnell on the east side of the weavers. If it is a close up of the exact spot then someone would have had to have been right at the spot.
However, the hill at that latitude was going up for some distance–before it would go down and that was more than 150 ft. that should be in site of Yarnell. It is a steep incline off the two track up there and on non restricted state land that can be accessed. So if the state has not made available photos of the very spot it started then that should be a photo in the archives.
According to the ADOSH interview notes… the photo ( or copy of it ) that YFD Fire Chief Koile gave them was taken just 9 minutes after the lightning strike… and it must have been showing SOMETHING interesting ( like the initial smoke at the point of the lightning strike )… or else there would have been no point in Koile giving ADOSH the photo.
Yes… it might have been a ‘long shot’, and not a ‘closeup’… but if it shows some ‘smoke’ at all, just 9 minutes after the strike, then that photo can be anaylyzed and the EXACT place the lightning actually struck can be determined.
It still won’t be an actual ‘closeup’ of that point up there… but it would certainly pinpoint the place to take one.
https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2013/09/28/granite_map_wide-2bb51983e121322c42ee26e6fe8e6876b4edd1a4.jpg?s=6
Am I missing something here is this a different route from the saddle than what we have been thinking.
It is the Discussion route in the Staff Ride and the Memorial trail?
Sonny is this where the Ribbon wad was found?
The Saddle to the left and down the main Canyon is where I thought we had been discussing for some time.
Maybe I am confused but this looks new.
Nothing new
The two track going south at the very southern end of the level part is a sudden steep incline of about 45%. At the bottom of that incline is where Joy sat. North of that spot about 75 to 100 yards on the west side of the road we stacked a small pile of rock and left the ball of ribbon in that pile. The ribbon is not directly above the saddle but from where it was found the GMHS could have angled back northeastwardly to the saddle, then down into the basin or they could have went straight down. To angle toward the saddle keeps you on a more gentle and friendly way for a time until you meet the saddle, then the decline is steep again like the other way straight down. It would seem the ribbon would have been farther back if that Marsh had marked to go off at the saddle. Either was possible but when we went with ADOSH to about where the ribbon was found we opted by sight to angle some back to the saddle then drop down. When Joy and I were near the spot they died I had my mind to go straight up to the two track, that would have put us about where the ribbon was located. It looked the shortest and most direct way to the two track and avoided boulders to the right — the path to the saddle. But when you viewed it from above at the point where the steep incline started on the two track I likely would have went straight down if I had seen the Helms as an option that day. Actually in my mind anyplace in the green on the east side of that mountain was not an option after about 11am when that fire went berserk. Beats me how those men did not see that the storm they left at Prescott was actually following them since early that morning. It was just riding a slower vehicle.
Ok Just looks different looking up at the path from that picture location.
There’s 3 saddles across that area above the canyon looking from that location.
Bob,
This is a single image of the same chute, looking up from the fatality site. There were several WFF’s that tracked and hiked the GMHS route immediately after the fatalities.
The route they tracked went right trough the small, cleared area of dirt with a bit of vegetation in it, about half way up the slope, straight up from the right corner of the fence.
http://images.csmonitor.com/csm/2013/09/Yarnell.JPG?alias=standard_600x400
Source: Photo by Matt York (AP) Christian Science Monitor.com
This was also pointed by former PFD Battalion Chief Willis from the fatality site station at the recent YH Fire Staff Ride for the family members.
More clarity there too thanks.
Dose not look very far off the saddle to the deployment site.
Based on the time it took to get there.
Bob,
However, according to Dr. Putnam, he says it’s the route that Blue Ridge used to come down to the site during their rescue foray, but it is too far right to be in play for the glove, cut stobs and flagging tape found to mark his suggested route.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on April 9, 2016 at 12:02 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> However, according to Dr. Putnam, he says it’s
>> the route that Blue Ridge used to come down
>> to the site during their rescue foray, but it is
>> too far right to be in play for the glove, cut
>> stobs and flagging tape found to mark his
>> suggested route.
It is absolutely KNOWN what ‘route’ Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown took down from the ‘descent point’ to the ‘deployment’ site… after he appeared ( on foot ) up there and DPS Medic Eric Tarr, who was already standing with the bodies down at the deployment site, saw Brown ‘appear’ up there and then ‘waved him down’.
Brown GPS’ed his OWN descent down from the ‘descent point’ to the ‘deployment site’.
From the detailed post down below in this same chapter…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-331050
Here is Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown’s exact GPS data showing him ‘approaching’ the same spot where Sonny found the pink flagging, and then him liteerally THROWING himself down to the floor of the box canyon and then his ARRIVAL at the deployment site…
NOTE: The short ‘comments’ about what each GPS data reading represents was added manually…
———————————————————–
1821 – 34.223189, -112.783359 – 0505.706 – 05.75
Heading south on two-track towards box canyon
1822 – 34.221823, -112.782125 – 0715.249 – 08.13
At bailout point and already left two-track starting descent
1823 – 34.221024, -112.780913 – 0459.679 – 05.22
Descending in drainage area
1824 – 34.220944, -112.780441 – 0131.291 – 01.49
Descending in drainage area
1825 – 34.220760, -112.779878 – 0177.553 – 02.02
Descending in drainage area
1826 – 34.220570, -112.778891 – 0321.836 – 03.65
Descending in drainage area
1827 – 34.220503, -112.778188 – 0222.092 – 02.52
Descending in drainage area, almost to deployment site
1828 – 34.220490, -112.777668 – 0156.980 – 01.78
At deployment site now
———————————————————–
So starting with the 1822 PM reading, which was almost exactly at the point where Sonny Gilligan found that burned-up ball of pink flagging… and ending with Brown’s actual ARRIVAL down there at the deployment site…
It took him ( Trueheart Brown ) just 6 minutes.
WTKTT,
Dr. Putnam was not questioning the location of the BRHS route. He was stating that the BRHS route was different than the one where he and Holly Neil had located the cut stobs and a glove.
In one of the ?reports? it mentioned that one of the GMHS was missing a glove.
OK so we do have a different route that Sonny found the roll of burned tape and Ted found a glove and some cut stabs at the drop off point separate from the one on the map I posted.
So no one is recognizing Sonny and Joys Find or Putnam’s & Holly’s Finds?
Now it is confusing??????????
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 9, 2016 at 1:33 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Dr. Putnam was not questioning the
>> location of the BRHS route. He was
>> stating that the BRHS route was
>> different than the one where he
>> and Holly Neil had located the
>> cut stobs and a glove.
Copy that. Thank you… but color me confused again.
This sounds like NEW information.
I thought the ‘stobs’ that were recently being discussed, and the ones that Holly Neill herself just came on here recently to discuss… were ALL found in-between the deployment site and the Boulder Springs Ranch?
Now it sounds like you are describing ‘other’ evidence that seems to have definitely been found in-between the ‘descent point’ and the ‘deployment site’.
I thought all of that had remained ‘inconclusive’?
And this is the first I’ve heard of a ‘glove’ actually being found in-between the ‘descent point’ and the ‘deployment site’.
So ‘how far off’ the drainage descent mapped in the SAIR was this ‘glove’ really found?
And does this mean that the SAIT team itself did NOT find this glove at all?… that it took OTHER people looking at the same area to even find a frickin’ GLOVE lying on the ground?
We all know the SAIT was fairly incompetent… but that’s setting a new low-bar, even for them.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> In one of the ?reports? it mentioned that
>> one of the GMHS was missing a glove.
Between the section entitled ‘Individual PPE Analysis’ starting on PDF page 95 of the original SAIR report… AND the information about recovered PPE in the autopsy reports… there are actually SEVERAL ‘missing gloves’.
Maybe Sonny can clarify this info he was with Ted as was Joy.?????????????
WTKTT,
I merely passed on what SME Willis mentioned about the GMHS route while we were at the Fatality Site during the Staff Ride.
That is also the route we hiked in October 2013 and the same area was referenced then.
Ted Putnam’s image is too blurry to determine the glove GPS location he found on his route, however, it was in the upper third of his route.
I don’t know what this means about the SAIT itself NOT finding this glove at all.
I agree with you on the SAIT incompetence, however, I go even one step further into the deliberate pattern of first establishing a conclusion, then finding the ‘facts’ to fit that conclusion.
One of the family members mentioned a certain GMHS was missing a glove.
It is possible all burned out and with adrenalin rush to get to the bodies that Brown did get to the deployment site in 6 minutes from the two track, but there is no way 18 men could have done it in that amount of time. Even 20 minutes before the fire would be record time for 18. Even now I would like to see someone repeat that feat of doing it in 6 minutes without a serious injury.
In that time Brown would have been risking a fall going down that quickly and probably did once or more.
Reply to Charlie post on
April 10, 2016 at 8:14 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> It is possible all burned out and with
>> adrenalin rush to get to the bodies
>> that Brown did get to the deployment
>> site in 6 minutes from the two track,
>> but there is no way 18 men could have
>> done it in that amount of time.
Correct. Not a chance in hell… even if they HAD been ‘trying to hurry’ ( and there is still no indication whatsoever they WERE in ANY kind of ‘hurry’… either on the first part of the ‘trip’ south from the anchor point OR the descent into the canyon ).
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Even 20 minutes before the fire would
>> be record time for 18. Even now I would
>> like to see someone repeat that feat of
>> doing it in 6 minutes without a serious
>> injury.
>>
>> In that time Brown would have been
>> risking a fall going down that quickly
>> and probably did once or more.
He ( Trueheart Brown ) probably reall is lucky he didn’t ‘break his neck’ on that WILD descent he made down to the deployment site.
He literally THREW himself down that slope.
Keep in mind that the reason Trueheart Brown was even there up at the ‘Descent Point’ in order to then THROW himself down to the deployment site was because about 15 minutes earlier… DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 had found the bodies and had radioed the approximate GPS coordinates out… and Brown heard them back up at the ‘anchor point’, punched them into his own handheld GPS unit… and the ‘took off running’ to the south since he could now see on his own GPS screen where the bodies were.
But there had still been NO INFORMATION about whether anyone was still ALIVE.
Ranger 58 made two attempts to land right near the bodies ( and probably blew the shelters all over the place with their OWN rotor wash )… but then backed off so as not to damage the engines or the helicopter and then landed at the ‘cattle pond’ area just north of the BSR ( and where the ‘Alpha’ Staff Ride actually started from ).
DPS medic Eric Tarr was ‘first on scene’ and had verified ( to himself ) that all the men were dead… but he had also NOT radioed that information out yet before seeing BR Captain Trueheart Brown appear up there at the ‘Descent Point’.
DPS medic Eric Tarr then says he “waved him down”… but he must have done it in a way whereas Trueheart Brown still might have thought some of them were alive and in need of medical attention.
BR Captain Trueheart Brown had EMS training.
So that is why he proceeded to THROW HIMSELF down that steep slope as fast as he possibly could.
He must have still been under the mistaken impression that some of the men ‘down there’ at the deployment site *might* still be alive.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on April 9, 2016 at 11:31 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The route they tracked went right trough the small,
>> cleared area of dirt with a bit of vegetation in it,
>> about half way up the slope, straight up from the
>> right corner of the fence.
>>
>> This was also pointed by former PFD Battalion Chief
>> Willis from the fatality site station at the recent YH
>> Fire Staff Ride for the family members.
What else can you tell us about this ‘Family members’ Staff Ride that took place just last Monday and Tuesday?
On Tuesday… when you did the ‘hike’… did you go on the ‘Fully Monty’ route that included ALL of the ‘Stands’… or did you only participate in one of the ‘shorter routes’ that only included places like ‘Stand 5’ ( the deployment site itself ).
It’s already known that Darrell Willis was being allowed to be the ‘SME’ ( Subject Matter Expert ) and ‘presenter’ at ‘Stand 5- the deployment site’, just as he was allowed to be the ‘presenter’ from that same location for the very first press conference held at the deployment site on July 23, 2013. That’s when he first ‘announced’ that ( in his military-wannabee opinion ) that they “Died with HONOR” and also announced ( in his preacher-wannabee opinion ) that the official explanation for their deaths was that “God had a different plan for them that day”.
Did he repeat these same sort of statements from that same location as part of the ‘Staff Ride’?
It’s also know that OPS2 Paul Musser and Air-Attack ‘Bravo 33’ right-seat crewman John Burfiend were being used as SMEs for the Staff Ride as well.
Do you know what ‘Stands’ they were being allowed to be the ‘presenters’ at… and what THEY might have had to say last Tuesday?
Also… how did the family members react ( in general ) to this ‘Staff Ride’… or was there even any opportunity to know that?
WTKTT,
I did hike the route that included ALL of the Stands up to Stand 3B, where the GMHS handline intersected the high ridge (mid-slope) two-track road.
Darrel Willis did NOT repeat any of those statements at the Fatality Site, nor anywhere else, as part of the Staff Ride.
OPS2 Musser and Bravo 33 Burfiend spoke at the Grader site and Stand 3B and the Fatality site.
The family members in general, reacted to this Staff Ride with mixed emotions – some still very angry and upset and others more reserve.
They ALL wanted more of the positive aspects of the GMHS and their legacy to be included in the Staff Ride.
They were ALL well versed in the SAIT SAIR and ADOSH Report details, and felt that these reports were both inaccurate and incomplete with many inconsistencies and far too many unanswered questions.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 9, 2016 at 1:27 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I did hike the route that included ALL of the
>> Stands up to Stand 3B, where the GMHS handline
>> intersected the high ridge (mid-slope) two-track road.
Thank you.
But you know me… I can always think of more questions.
Rumor was that they were going to RECUT the GMHS ‘completed handline’ section for this ‘April/Alpha’ Staff Ride, so that participants could actually see where GM had been cutting line up there at Stands 3A and 3B.
Did you see any evidence of that last Tuesday?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Darrel Willis did NOT repeat any of those
>> statements at the Fatality Site, nor anywhere
>> else, as part of the Staff Ride.
That’s good.
What, exactly, did he say this time, then?
Anything about “they were going to protect the Ranch” ( which didn’t need protecting at all )?
Or is it all still just being left at “We have absolutely no idea why they were moving”?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> OPS2 Musser and Bravo 33 Burfiend spoke at
>> the Grader site and Stand 3B and the Fatality site.
What did they say?
Followup… did you get the impression ( or see any evidence ) that these SMEs were actually working off pre-written SCRIPTS?… or did it all seem like ‘off the cuff’ non-prepared speaking?
Also ( and most importantly ).. did any of the family members ask Musser, Burfiend ( or even Willis ) any QUESTIONS?
If so… do you recally what the ‘responses’ were?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The family members in general, reacted to this
>> Staff Ride with mixed emotions – some still
>> very angry and upset and others more reserve.
Would you characterize their ANGER as being directed at Arizona Forestry… and the inconclusive SAIR document… or just general ANGER at them even having to be on this ‘Staff Ride’ to still try and figure out why their loved ones are dead?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> They ALL wanted more of the positive aspects
>> of the GMHS and their legacy to be included
>> in the Staff Ride.
Not surprising… but was it made clear to them that these kinds of ‘Staff Rides’ ( even though they were invited to attend this one as per the wrongful death lawsuit settlement ) are not generally even FOR that sort of thing?
Normally… they are intended to be just OBJECTIVE looks at why fatalities took place… and what ‘Lessons’ there should be for other people in the Wildland Firefighting profession to ‘take away’ from the ‘Staff Ride’ in order to TRY and prevent a similar incident in the future.
There is always a time for HONORING the deceased…. and even “learning more about them and their organization”… but that is not GENERALLY what one should expect during a “Lessons to be Learned” Staff Ride. It’s supposed to be more about what went WRONG that day… and what can be LEARNED from it.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> They were ALL well versed in the SAIT SAIR
>> and ADOSH Report details, and felt that
>> these reports were both inaccurate and
>> incomplete with many inconsistencies and
>> far too many unanswered questions.
So was there really a chance, then, for the ‘family members’ to ASK QUESTIONS during this ‘Staff Ride’?
If so… do you recall what kinds of QUESTIONS were being asked and whether the SMEs even made any real attempt to answer them?
WTKTT,
The GMHS ‘completed handline’ section was still there, albeit faded and somewhat grown over. This is normal on every wildland fire fatality site and Staff Ride. It’s nature in progress.
The saw cuts were still evident. Almost all Staff Rides have volunteers that maintain the original fire handlines for future Staff Rides and Site Visits.
Nothing that I recall about “they were going to protect the Ranch.” Nor was there anything about “We have absolutely no idea why they were moving” that I recall.
Musser and Burfiend spoke about their roles and actions and recollections that day. They spoke from their hearts and memory, nothing scripted, and nothing from reference notes.
The family members asked them all very direct questions. I do not recall what the ‘responses’ were.
There was no anger at the families having to be on this ‘Staff Ride.’ They didn’t have to be there, they WANTED to be there. This was an epic event, to have actually families participate in the actual development of a Staff Ride.
Of course there were ample chances and opportunities for the family members to ask questions throughout the Staff Ride.
I do not recall what kinds of questions were asked. The Staff Ride Cadre and the SMEs were very sincere and made every effort to answer them.
Thank you.
See a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-331765
About the glove missing Joy believes it might have been hers. She lost a leather man’s glove on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013. So it would be a burned glove in the area or below the area they died.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on
April 9, 2016 at 10:48 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> About the glove missing Joy believes it might
>> have been hers. She lost a leather man’s glove
>> on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013. So it
>> would be a burned glove in the area or below
>> the area they died.
Well… according to Robert the Second ( RTS )… it was Dr. Ted Putnam himself who ‘found’ this glove… and ( also according to what RTS is saying ) Dr. Putnam has a ‘picture’ of it.
And ( I assume )… Dr. Putnam would also still have the glove.
>> Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>> Ted Putnam’s image is too blurry to determine
>> the glove GPS location he found on his route,
>> however, it was in the upper third of his route.
So maybe you ( or Joy ) could ask him ( Dr. Putnam ) about this the next time you talk to him?
Maybe he could just send you ( or Joy ) a copy of this photo that RTS says he has and see if it’s still recognizable enough to determine it its the one Joy lost… or not.
There is, however… still at least one entry in the PPE ( Personal Protection Equipment ) section of the original SAIR that says only ONE glove was recovered for Anthony Rose.
OK we will see the glove or a picture of it from Ted since we will be seeing him soon. Also by the location we will know if it could be the one lost by Joy.
WWTKTT said:There is, however… still at least one entry in the PPE ( Personal Protection Equipment ) section of the original SAIR that says only ONE glove was recovered for Anthony Rose.
MY REPLY- any direct link to this section PPE—anything on Rose interests me at this point in my own humble in my own perception view of the YHF…I would like to know does the glove that Ted has pic of match Rose’s glove and this will mean something as I gather more details—
Joy… the PPE section in the original SAIR report starts on PDF page 95. That section of the SAIR is entitled…
“Individual PPE Analysis”.
It starts right under that ‘diagram’ of how all the shelters were laid out at the deployment site, as per YCSO police investigator photographs.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 9, 2016 at 11:04 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Ok Just looks different looking up at the path from that
>> picture location. There’s 3 saddles across that area
>> above the canyon looking from that location.
As calvin said… nothing ‘new’ here… but there IS something to NOTE about this ‘image’.
This ‘image’ is from PDF page 24 of the April/Beta Yarnell Hill Staff Ride ‘Guide’ document.
The TITLE of that page in the Staff Ride Guide says…
Stand 4 – The Closing Window – Why margin matters as windows close in time and space
This image ( on that PDF page 24 ) has the following TEXT on it…
“Granite Mountain IHC – approximate route of movement from 1604 – 1640 ( exact time and route unknown )”
The ‘red line’ on the map ERRONEOUSLY shows Steed and the Crew ‘departing’ the anchor point area from the LUNCH SPOT. That is ( and has ALWAYS been ) totally WRONG.
The ‘last rest spot’ that they actually DEPARTED from sometime between 1556 ( 3:56 PM ) and 1604 ( 4:04 PM ), and where Christopher Mackenzie took his photos and videos, is NOT where they ‘ate lunch’ that day.
That ‘last rest spot’ was up the slope and to the southeast of the ‘lunch spot’ and much closer to the ‘descent point’ than this official map indicates.
Just another example of the ‘incompetence’ that is still ‘at play’ here on the part of Arizona Forestry, OMNA International, and the USFS ‘Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center’.
There are many. many FACTUAL ERRORS and lots and lots of misinformation contained in this ‘Staff Ride’ document… which is presumably destined to be the official documents that will be made publicly available on the US Forestry Service’s “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center”.
That’s what happens when you base any report about the Yarnell Hill Fire solely on the original SAIR document… and ignore ALL of the evidence that has been discovered in the subsequent investigations, interviews and other independent research.
Yes I noted they did not note the Final rest spot before they left the Black.
I am not sure the Forest Service has any thing to do with this Staff ride or
develop lessons learned from it.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 9, 2016 at 3:27 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I am not sure the Forest Service has any thing to do
>> with this Staff ride or develop lessons learned from it.
On the contrary… the US Forest Service and its own “Wildland Lessons Learned Center” have been HEAVILY involved in this ‘product’ from the moment the ink was drying on the 12 ‘wrongful death lawsuits’ settlement agreement.
As the story goes… Arizona Forestry immediately turned to US Forestry for ‘help’ once the settlement agreement put an accelerated timeline on the development of a ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’.
It was US Forestry that then ‘sub-contracted’ this bunch of ex-marines who run this OMNA International Staff Ride company ( they specialize in military Staff Rides like Gettysburg, etc, and have also been known to do business with US Forestry in the past ).
The ex-marines at OMNA International were then ( and are STILL ) working ‘cooperatively’ with US Forestry’s own “Wildland Lessons Learned Center” people to produce the final product.
In essence… even though Arizona Forestry’s Jeff Whitney and Dn Boursier are listed as being ‘in charge’ of this ‘Staff Ride development’… Arizona Forestry itself sort of just relinquished the entire development of the ‘product’ itself over to US Forestry and the OMNA international subcontractors.
Brit Russo, of US Forestry’s “Wildland Lessons Learned Center”, is HEAVILY involved in the development of this “Yarnell Hill Staff Ride” product… and what they are actually coming up with ( and the ‘Guide’ that we can now read ourselves ) is, in fact, destined to become the OFFICIAL version of events that will be eventually posted publicly at USFS’s “Wildland Lessons Learned” site.
Apologies… and correction for above.
It is ‘Brit Rosso’ ( and not ‘Brit Russo’ ) who is the ‘Center Manager’ for the US Forestry’s “Wildland Lessons Learned Center”
Brit Rosso is seen in the following YouTube video identifying himself and speaking to ALL firefighters about the “Yarnell Hill Fire”… and how he wants ALL of them to simply TALK ABOUT IT… in an OPEN and HONEST way…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C65FcpAi_-4&list=PLB0zwpPSF3eBTxI0DAN7hiAolWtxNYM1A&index=10
The speaker in this video is Brit Rosso of the US Forestry’s “Wildland Lessons Learned Center”, and he is speaking to ‘all firefighters’ about the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’.
What he actually says at the start of the video is this…
————————————————————————-
So my name is Britt Rosso, Center Manager for
the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
Quick fire background… I spent about 21 years on a Hotshot crew, I spent a few years as a District FMO… and then I’ve been workin’ at the Lessons Learned Center for about the last 3 or so years.
I’m here today to talk you about the Yarnell Fire.
We’re all struggling with how to process what happened on June 30, 2013.
We’re all struggling out in the fire community about where the lessons… what are the take-home messages… what can we learn from this incident.
What I wanna share with you is how important it is to TALK ABOUT IT.
Not only to talk about it… but to let you know that it’s OKAY to talk about it.
It’s important that you DO talk about it.
Share what you’ve learned by reading the… uh… reports… by watchin’ the videos and have open, honest, respectful dialog. Be willing to listen to other people’s opinions and have that respectful dialog with your fellow firefighters.
By having this dialog… by facilitating these conversations about Yarnell…. This is where the learning’s gonna happen.
Is with you and your brothers and sisters out there in the field.
This is the 20th anniversary of South Canyon.
We’re still learning from South Canyon 20 years later.
Yarnell just happened eight months ago.
We’ll be learning about the Yarnell incident for years to come.
Time and patience are gonna be key when learning from this incident.
I ask you to just take the time and just be patient as we work through this together.
————————————————————————-
Key message ( to ALL firefighters ): TALK ABOUT IT!… OPENLY and HONESTLY!
Britt Rosso is actively participating in the development of this ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride’.
But despite his own words in the video… we can now see that the ‘Staff Ride’ even Brit Rosso is working on is still TOTALLY based on ONLY the original Arizona Forestry SAIR document.
It totally ignores and, indeed, never acknowledges ANY of the additional evidence and information that has been revealed by ANY other investigation or sources since that original Arizona Forestry contracted SAIT team produced their much-criticized document.
And that includes ALL of the information revealed in the many interviews conducted during the Arizona Department of Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) investigation.
WTKTT,
A point of contention and clarity here regarding the term “ex-Marine.”
Moreover, Marines follow orders.
Get over it Woodsman, it’s a fact of their life.
“ONCE A MARINE, ALWAYS A MARINE:
Once a Marine, Always a Marine: This truism was adopted as the official motto of the Marine Corps League. The origin of the statement is credited to a gung-ho Marine Corps Master Sergeant, Paul Woyshner. During a barroom argument he shouted, “Once a Marine, always a Marine!” MSgt. Woyshner was right. Once the title “U.S. Marine” has been earned, it is retained. There are no ex-Marines or former-Marines. There are (1) active duty Marines, (2) retired Marines, (3) reserve Marines, and (4) Marine veterans. Nonetheless, once one has earned the title, he remains a Marine for life.”
Source: http://www.usmarinesbirthplace.com/United-States-Marines-facts.html
Thank you for pointing that out.
Yes… that’s a famous saying.
If I could ‘search and replace’ all “ex-marine” references above with regards to these OMNA International guys… I would replace all references with “retired marines”.
Actually… it’s a little confusing on the OMNA International website itself as to whether or not some of these ‘retired marines’ running that commercial Staff Ride operation really are ‘retired’… or not.
That is… if you consider still being employed to TEACH at various US Marine facilities still being considered “active duty Marine Corps”… or not.
As for the the “does having a Marine background make you MORE likely to just blindly follow orders” issue… it is, of course, complicated.
I see exactly where Woodsman is ‘coming from’ with his suggestion that, if accounts are true, then Jesse Steed most definitely did NOT just say “Oooorah! Yes SIR!” when he was FIRST asked to take his crew out of the safe black… but the situation is a little more complicated than that.
Example: Again… if accounts are true… then this ( as you have called it yourself ) ‘mitigating talk’ and ‘discussion’ that was taking place between Marsh did NOT actually result in what could be construed as an actual ORDER until the very END of the conversation… when Marsh just got tired of the ‘mitigating talk’ and how this guy who he was supposed to be ‘mentoring’ just wasn’t readily agreeing to do what Marsh WANTED him to do.
So it *could* be said that there was no actual ORDER for anyone ( former Marine or not ) to ‘obey or disobey’ until the END of the conversation itself.
And when it did happen ( the actual ORDER )… obviously Jesse Steed DID ( even if reluctantly ) OBEY that ORDER.
We know that no matter how many times he might have been ‘refusing’ to do something… it cannot be ultimately said that he really did REFUSE… because he’s DEAD.
You just have to ask. What made Steed consider the move any less risky the fourth time versus the first time.
I choose that it was not the way the request was made.
Reply to calvin post on
April 9, 2016 at 6:29 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> You just have to ask. What made
>> Steed consider the move any less
>> risky the fourth time versus the first
>> time.
According to the account of the ‘argument’ coming from Prescott City Attorney Jon Palidini ( as per McDonough via Willis )… Jesse Steed NEVER considered the move any ‘less risky’ than he did DURING the argument.
He just decided to do it, anyway, even still telling Marsh he thought it was a ‘bad idea’.
Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini testified…
——————————————
As the back-and-forth conversation continued, it became apparent that Steed, a U.S. Marine veteran, consented to the command to relocate the team. But he told Marsh he thought it was a bad idea.
During one of the final radio transmissions, according to the account, Steed told Marsh the crew was not going to make it.
“That is what Darrell (Willis) told me,” Paladini said.
——————————————
So right there we have credible ‘testimony’ ( from someone who had no reason to make any of it up ) that even though Jesse Steed was ultimately AGREEING to do what Marsh wanted… he STILL “thought it was a bad idea”.
The very definition of ‘negligence with depraved indifference’. When you are KNOWINGLY subjecting yourself ( and others ) to a risk of injury or death… but you go ahead and do it anyway.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> I choose that it was not the way
>> the request was made.
Could use a little clarity there, calvin.
Are you saying you think that the conversation DID ultimately end in a ‘direct order’ from Marsh ( as Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini says it did )… or that there never really was anything that could be construed as an actual ORDER coming from Marsh ( as Darrell Willis contends )?
That it was all just ‘nicey nice’… even the moment when Steed finally ‘gave in’ and agreed to do something he still thought was a ‘bad idea’?
Well I agree with Woodsman and WTKTT. First, it’s complicated, secondly…the hotshot culture on more than capable on its own to generate the willingness to follow orders that would have pushed Steed to take his crew out of the black and down a death chute.
We have to remember, this is NOT the first time in hotshot history that this happened. This is the THIRD time and as far as I know, there was NO military influence on either the El Cariso or Mormon Lake Hotshots.
The military influence, especially Marine Corps influence is inconclusive at best, the causal effect of hotshot crew Hubris and hotshot crew boss Hubris is undeniable.
For one thing, I don’t believe that a commanding officer would have to order a Marine FOUR times to bring the crew out of the black.
Gary,
He was not a Marine in combat.
He was a Hot Shot that was a Marine, influenced by the famous Marine Corps ethos.
Once a Marine, always a Marine.
Gary,
You posted: “The military influence, especially Marine Corps influence is inconclusive at best, the causal effect of hotshot crew Hubris and hotshot crew boss Hubris is undeniable.”
I agree in part and disagree in part.
And I am not talking about a general ‘military influence.’
The strongest evidence to me is the Marine Corps influence.
The study of human factors is fairly inconclusive overall based on its inductive logic and suggestive evidence reasoning.
I believe there is sufficient, but inconclusive, evidence for us to be concerned about what you refer to as the Hot Shot Crew and Supt. hubris.
I disagree that it is undeniable.
It is undeniable that those WFF’s died on those tragic fires from bad decisions, but we don’t really know any of the causal human factors details involved.
However, there does seem to be cause for concern, whatever the influence, Marine Corps or HS Hubris.
So, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
WHAT! Have you read the Loop Fire reports? Do you know anything about Tony Czak? Have you been paying attention over the past three years alone to what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire and what Eric Marsh’s reputation was? Have you forgotten all of the accusations against Marsh that you have made for years now? Are you channeling Sergeant Shultz from Hogan’s Heroes while you are answering WTKTT’s questions? Are you going to make me regret how much fucking trouble I went to to set you up as an source of information to attend the staff ride as a snitch. Do you know snitches belong in ditches? WTF? You rat bastard! Pay up!
How much does your retirement plan as a fill in and a whore trainer to Battalion Chiefs mean to you…you Sorry FUCK!
You are as bad as everyone else in that in bred cesspool that call the Prescott area wildland firefighting community.
So…ya, I guess you are right, we are just going to agree to disagree what kind of person you are You think you are a good person. I think you are a TURD!
I need a massage and maybe some vitamin D.
Gary—-Back in the 60’s there were a number of Vietnam Vets hired on many crews on average 3 to 5 they were always priority hire.
No one thought of that influence back then.
Could have been some on El Cariso HS Loop Fire no one checked that..
It has come to light more since the Recent Wars in Iraqi and Afghanistan. Manly as a contributing factor to consider. CONSIDER ONLY. Just a piece of the puzzle.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
April 9, 2016 at 7:38 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Well I agree with Woodsman and
>> WTKTT. First, it’s complicated,
>> secondly…the hotshot culture on more
>> than capable on its own to
>> generate the willingness to follow
>> orders that would have pushed
>> Steed to take his crew out of the black
>> and down a death chute.
Yep.
It’s important to NOTE, however, that when Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini first reported what Brendan had been refusing to tell investigators ( via Darrell Willis )… that the ONLY part of Paladini’s testimony that Willis seemed to be refusing to confirm was just the part about whether or not there really was something that could be construed as ‘direct order’ from Marsh that terminated the ‘argument’ and caused Steed to order the crew to leave the safe black.
Willis was not DENYING that what Paladini was now testifying to was false… he just basically said he never recalled describing the end of the conversation as a ‘direct order’.
Willis never said what words HE thought he had used… or how HE would describe the ‘end’ of the conversation. He was just ‘disagreeing’ with how Paladini was describing it.
But even when asked about this specific complaint from Willis… Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini said… “I stand by my story”.
From the original AZCENTRAL article…
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2015/04/04/yarnell-fire-new-account-hotshot-deaths/25284535/
——————————————-
Paladini offered the following account of McDonough’s story, as he says was related to him by Willis, who disagrees:
While moving vehicles with the Blue Ridge crew, McDonough allegedly overheard radio traffic between Marsh and Steed, who was with 17 crew members atop a ridge that had burned days earlier.
In the radio call, Marsh told Steed to leave the “black,” which was safe, and join him at the ranch. Steed protested, saying such a move would be dangerous. The radio exchange turned into a dispute.
“My understanding of the argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed … was that Steed did not want to go down,” Paladini said.
According to Paladini’s account, Steed objected until Marsh gave him a direct order to descend.
As the back-and-forth conversation continued, it became apparent that Steed, a U.S. Marine veteran, consented to the command to relocate the team. But he told Marsh he thought it was a bad idea.
During one of the final radio transmissions, according to the account, Steed told Marsh the crew was not going to make it.
“That is what Darrell (Willis) told me,” Paladini said.
—————————————
Willis’ response ( to AZCENTRAL reporters ) was…
—————————————
Willis… said he never quoted McDonough as saying that the crew was ordered off the ridge by Marsh. “That was not part of the detail that I knew — that he told me.”
However, he also said McDonough’s revelations were so shocking, “I told him at that point it couldn’t just sit with me. I had to go further.”
—————————————–
So maybe even the term ORDER just means different things to different people. Maybe even Willis thinks ‘strong suggestion’ or ‘obvious directive’ doesn’t even ‘officially’ qualify as a ‘direct order’.
It’s hard to imagine, however, that Prescott City Attorney would be making ANY part of his account up… or pulling the term ‘direct order’ out of thin air.
And Paladini says he still “stands by my story”, regardless of the ‘semantics’ that Willis is contending.
On the YH Fire Staff Ride, one of the OPS SME’s said something to the effect of ‘we can’t/don’t ORDER anyone to do anything’
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS)
post on April 9, 2016 at 9:20 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> On the YH Fire Staff Ride, one of
>> the OPS SME’s
Which one?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> said something to the effect
>> of ‘we can’t/don’t ORDER anyone
>> to do anything’
And in what CONTEXT was this statement made?
Are you saying that at one of the ‘Stands’… there really was some kind of ‘discussion’ about whether or not there really WAS an ORDER coming from Marsh that day?
At which ‘Stand’ did this discussion about whether or not there is ever any such thing as an ORDER in the WFF business actually take place?
The saddle they would be talking about would be the western most one that is about 200 yards east of the two track.
If you do not get to hike up there to see where the men went down you can see the two track from many places in Yarnell==even the parking lot at the Ranch House Café or take the first street to the east after going toward Prescott from the Ranch House. It has a sign pointing up the street with American Legion. Go straight on up and left at the first street you come to and anywhere along that street you have a birds eye view of that Weaver Mountain side with that two track very visible about three quarters of the way up the side of the mountain. Where the two track levels off for maybe a quarter mile you will see to the south end of the level part a sudden and steep incline of it at about 45% toward the top. Just to the right of that sudden up grade and estimate 100 yards (north of the upturn) is where the men dropped off. You should be able to see the flag below and even the fence enclosure just above the flag where the men died, especially if you have binoculars. Even that viewing will give you an idea of how the basin is and the gross error made of ordering those men down into that canyon. You will even see both the north ridge of the basin and south ridge including the Helms property. You can understand that the fire was licking away toward the Helms from the North ridge when it took the updraft toward the men and up toward that two track they had just descended from and could not by any stretch of imagination go back away from the fire.
Keep going down that street that goes up and down and eventually comes out by the Prysbyterian church. All along that street you can get different views of the range, even pass by Penny Duncan’s place where we picked her and her 7 dogs and cats and two parakeets to transfer her to safer territory.
I doubt the staff ride would be to the saddle. That two track is now washed out so bad since recent rains and no vegetation left deep ditches, now impassible. They can get to the old grader ok in a 4×4 or ATV but that is about it. It would have to be a hike and a steep rocky one at that to get to the two track where the men went down. I think that the staff does not particularly want anyone to see where they went down and how they blind sided themselves by dropping out of sight of the fire with no look out in position. The lookout would have had to been located down the ridge farther from the saddle they always talk about and in the boulders. He would have actually been safe in those boulders on that particular ridge. and had they taken the precaution to put one there he would have told them no to dropping down in the basin. But as things worked out they did listen to their Boss, Mr. Marsh who apparently had no eyes on the fire. So no, I doubt they hiked up that trail from the grader to see the original place they were in the black, where they made line down toward the grader then retrace their steps to go to the drop off point. Yet they may have if the people on the staff ride were able to hike the distance.
Sonny,
The Staff Ride participants that opted for the ‘arduous’ route, actually did hike from the old grader site and McDonough’s lower lookout area, up the kinda steep and washed out two track road to the upper ridge (mid-slope) road.
Were ‘particpants’ in this ‘Staff Ride’ allowed to ask any ‘questions’ of the SMEs while the ‘tour’ moved from Stand to Stand?
If so… do you recall what any of those ‘questions’ might have been… and/or what the ‘responses’ were?
WTKTT,
Certainly the participants were allowed to ask questions in between the Stands, but one would have been right there with them to hear anything.
I do not recall any of questions asked between Stands.
Thank you.
WTKTT,
The Staff Ride was continually on a fairly tight timeline, so whether or not they got their questions answered at the time or later, like when traveling from Stand to Stand, I don’t know.
The ones at the various Stands were answered then
Once again… Thank You.
See a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-331765
They did well then. No way getting up there now without hiking at least from the old grader area. It will be interesting to see the staff report now that they did see it all.
Bob, the ribbon was in the two track rolled into a ball and grey in color about the size of a ping pong ball–just a bit smaller. I at first thought it might be a meteorite but when I picked it up it fell apart enough to expose the pink color of the ribbon inside. The place it was could have easily marked the exact spot they descended off the two track and would likely been tied to a rock there in the middle of the two track. I really believe if you traced a line from that little rock pile where that ribbon should still be to the place they died you would have the route they took. It was in a place where they certainly could have chosen to go down. It would be a steep way down but from above the routes were all steep unless you angled back to the saddle on the beginning of the north ridge of the basin, then you had steepness, brush and boulders to deal with going down. I don’t think the steepness at that point would have deterred the men–It wouldn’t me for sure if I were to decide to take a route to the Helms.
On a note about pink ribbon burning as that did, it would be interesting to burn a small bundle of that to see how much it took to make a ball the size between a “boulder” marble and a ping pong ball. It had to be more than just a flag as you usually see marking a trail and I would suspect was a marker Marsh made to be sure they stopped to look down to see flagging going toward the Helms. Question to Bob, do you mark abrupt turns like that with extra flagging?
Bob Powers can correct me if I’m wrong… but I believe when this was being discussed way back when it was agreed that it is not uncommon at all, when you want to indicate where a line of 18 men should take a TURN… is to put ENOUGH ‘pink flagging’ out to actually form an ARROW, of sorts, pointing in the direction you want them to go.
Usually it would be tied to a bush, or something… but could also just have been laid out on the ground and weighted down with rocks.
But either way… yes… it’s not just a little shard of flagging tied to limb. It can be mich more than that and trying to look like an ARROW.
Don’t forget, however, that it is STILL possible that was just something that someone accidentally ‘dropped’… or maybe even someone reaching close to the end of a ‘roll’, and just tossing it on the ground as trash to start using a NEW ‘roll’ of flagging.
OK WTKTT –makes sense then. The men going down the two track would have to stumble across an arrow laid out on the ground and marking the place Marsh wanted them to drop off. That then is about a 95%positive that the ball of melted pink ribbon would have been there tied to a rock and likely an arrow next to it. There near the helitac was a rock with such pink ribbon tied many times around a rock to mark an area, so it would be a common thing and makes sense that ribbon had actually marked the spot they were directed to descend from the two track towards Hel ms. The rock pile with ball of burned ribbon should still be there.
According to the staff ride RTS talks about then they would have went right to where the ribbon was found. RTS would have passed a short piece of PVC pipe 2″ diameter x about 4′ lenth melted, shriveled and browned in the middle of the two track and near where they descended.
and also within about 50ft. of where the ball of melted and burned pink ribbon was found. The way that piece of PVC was melted and shaped now like a snake gives you an idea how hot it was even on the two track, an area there where brush was much less than what they descended into. The ribbon burned but that old PVC shows what a person’s turkey roaster blanket would look like if deployed even on that two track. You would have been no better off there but one can imagine the intense heat that dense manzanita gave off by looking at that pipe.
Otis said
APRIL 8, 2016 AT 5:00 AM
Thanks for this Gary, and for the acknowledgment we’re still here – even if you guys cover a lot of distance in a day and it takes me ages to catch up.
The first time you came close to the exact wording in the “you killed us” dream it shocked me a lot more, and I mean shocked me to the core. It FELT like the sort of thing that really was said.
Therefore, this “exact wording”, well this is no longer a shock, and if it is as close as we all think to the truth…..it saddens me deeply.
Now all we need is for those that witnessed and KNOW what WE here around the campfire already know and have figured out, to come clean, in public.
And I say, Thank you for weighing in Otis. And yes…obviously I am getting different versions of their “last words” and in any case, even what I posted below is obviously not everything that was said.
I believe it is fairly accurate because I interpreted, “you killed us” as meaning the same thing as, “You’ve really FUCKED us this time.” I also think it is important that that particular version said the same thing the City of Prescott lawyer said he was told a long time ago.
And FYI, I am privately getting push back even now that the version I posted above is not correct. To which I replied…well then, tell what version IS correct and I will be happy to post that as well.
I don’t care if I am right or not, I would simply like to have a truly accurate description of what was said because that will be the closest thing we have to knowing what was going on in their minds in their final minutes.
And anyone is free to post whatever they think (or know) their final words were here on this thread as well, they can even do it anonymously, so go for it. Please set the record straight.
In fact, I am going to do something out of character for me and go one step further and tell everyone exactly what I think. I think I am being forced to try and bracket what was said by taking potshots at it precisely because those who do know exactly what said in its entirety are NOT stepping forward and posting it or telling someone who will post it
And that is because Prescott is a small inbred town made up of local yocals who have never been anywhere else or have done anything else. I mean…even New York City has a similar problem, former mayor Rudy Giuliani has recently said that they (New Yorkers) can criticize New York but Ted Cruz can’t. Well, all you have to done is multiply that many, many times over and you will be close to where Prescott is at.
Prescott in general is made up of two kinds of people, old grouchy retirees or inbred local yocals. Prescott started making it as the number one place in the U.S. to retire about 40 years ago and ever since it has been flooded with grouchy old retirees who all think the world owes them something. It is no different than many small towns run by inbred local yocals up in the mountains in relatively isolated places like those in the Appalachia Mountains except it has more grouchy old people.
Add to that the fact that almost the entire wildland firefighting system, which is dominated by the U.S. Forest Service but also has the Arizona Division of Forestry there as well, is completely integrated with the Prescott City Fire Department and the Yavapai County Central Fire Department to the point they received top national awards and acclaim for how integrated they are. Add all of that together we now have a big red stone wall or circled wagons, pick your metaphor.
And for the lack of a better term, I will christen them the Amanda Marsh Cabal. And this cabal, which is centered on the Arizona Wildfire Academy that was founded by Eric Marsh in his living room, well…I am quite sure they are privately condemning Eric Marsh’s actions on the Yarnell Hill Fire and acknowledged that he killed his crew because these people aren’t STUPID. But at the same time, we can’t. In other words, and they have made the decision as a group, maybe even through the Abilene Paradox, they are going to handle this internally and they don’t need any meddling outsiders telling them what they should do.
Multiply that same sentiment within Region 3, the Southwestern Region of the U.S. Forest Service and its partner agencies, times the U.S. Forest Service as a whole and its partner agencies, all of them backed up by all of their respective management and you have…what we currently have, a serious lack of information to go on.
I’m afraid I have some really bad news for all of them however. YOU people spent millions of dollars training me as an investigator and I used to be described as “tenacious” by those who liked me and as a “fuckin’ jackhammer” by those who didn’t like me along with a lot of other descriptive words. And I am not going to give up and go away very easily. And since I have been on this thread, I have become aware there are some people participating here that make me look like a quitter, including by not limited to John Dougherty himself. And we all have access to cheap computers and the internet…so good luck with your long term plan to keep a lid on it.
And I forgot to mention one really important point. All of these people have collectively decided that they are going to try and protect Eric Marsh’s reputation and legacy as much as they can and re-write history to rehabilitate his reputation and legacy where they haven’t been able to control the narrative.
And they have consciously made this decision over improving the odds that this won’t happen again and more wildland firefighters will die because of their behavior and they should be ashamed of themselves. But I know they aren’t, I gave up trying to shame these people into doing the right thing a long time ago.
So now I just take potshots and I will continue to bracket the target until I score a 300 (which is a perfect score when qualifying as a federal law enforcement officer, a score I am very familiar with because one of my many attributes is I am a deadly simulated combat shooter…so there).
That could not be said better. And I see no quitters on this site–even the citizen types have been hanging in there even when there seems like only a thread to hang to. It Donut and company had revealed what they knew from the beginning and a honest report had been forthcoming there would be no qualms. If the state can restrict not only the area where the men died since it so obvious that their actions could not be described as heroic but absolute disregard for their men’s safety, once you see the actual path they took and how freedom of speech and revelations of fact have been hidden under the guise of hurting loved ones feelings–feed them a lie instead of the real truth that it was a fuck up ordeal that killed their loved ones—then the state forest service can paint their fire fighting actions that killed their men as an accident, a God thing and no one can be held accountable for their careless actions that caused the deaths of so many. Structure protection is what they do and so do the men that protect the structure of the system that killed the 19. But that structure protection will continue to kill more wild land fire fighters if it is not addressed and it foibles revealed and remedied. Gary’s metaphor of circling the red wagons is certainly apt. That is the structure protection we see these days. It may be the Indians on the outside shooting the arrows are held back by the big guns inside the circle. But some big guns have begun to amass on the outside. Yellow hair might loose his scalp in this one.
WAR WHOOP!
Slow but getting there Gary–the Amanda Marsh Cabal-Cartel? It stand to reason that the Cabal wants to clean up Marsh’s act but it is a little late. They groomed him and now they need to make sure he looks clean. And I think we all know that he got results but not exactly what he expected. How can someone whose husband created such a disaster have so much influence on the wild land fire fighting community. Is it because they all want the version of accidental death widely published so they look good and people believe they deserve acclamations for a job that was not well done. Killing 19 is serious business and so is killing 18 via Marsh and so 17 with Steed. The old gal on murder she wrote ought to be in on this one.
I think that is a safe bet that is what they want. There is a lot of incentive for one thing. Just look at how big the Arizona Wildfire Academy has become and how important it is to so many of the players who were involved with the crew and who were on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
They would have to start by denouncing the founder of their academy for making the worst mistake in wildland firefighting history and telling everyone…don’t be like our founder…awkward.
Just one more thing in the “You. Can’t. Make. This. Shit. Up” category.
Has there EVER been ( prior to Yarnell ) a Wildland Firefighting Fatality incident whereby one of the persons who was ‘in charge’ of the ones who died ( in the field ) was also the ‘Founder’ of a commercial operation designed to take money from other people to teach them about how to NOT die on a Wildland Fire?
An incident where the REPUTATION of the person involved was already directly tied back to an existing ‘commercial’ operation?
I wonder why people are afraid to post as you say Gary that some have said that your version is not the right one. Then post if Gary has it off some. We can compare the new version and the source. It is easy to get a different e mail and use a different handle so you are untraceable. Of course that might take a few minutes of time, but that was all the GMHS had once they dropped off in that canyon. They deserve that we get the fine details correctly said.
WARNING – What I am about to write will make you feel nauseated and…bad. It will probably get better over time…a really long time. But you deserve to know because you were stakeholders in the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew and you still are. You are paying for their deaths in more ways than one. Even Otis and Rocksteady are stakeholders; although they were not financial stakeholders…they were and still are emotionally vested.
And even though I can’t tell the names of my sources of information, I can tell you that I have received this same information from multiple independent and unrelated sources and therefore I believe it to be true and accurate. Just as importantly, this information matches what the City of Prescott Attorney Paladini said Darrell Willis told him…that Jesse Steed actually radioed “We’re not going to make it.”
This information will also prove what a liar Arizona State Forester and former Coconino National Forest Blue Ridge Hotshot Crew Boss Jeff Whitney is. In addition to what liars all of his flunkies are as well. They have all known for years that THEIR Yarnell Hill Fire supervisor…Division Alpha Eric Marsh ordered the crew to leave the black. There is no doubt in my mind that they also know who Division Alpha was answering to on the radio regarding the crew coming from the heal of the fire. The heal of the fire that was actually the new head of the fire.
But…I did tell you after I broke the news here on this thread that Eric Marsh had been sent home with the Globe Hotshots from the Clear Creek Fire in Idaho when he was an acting squad boss for smoking dope and drinking alcohol on the fire line that I would be THAT guy and I still am. Some people never change, in fact, most people never change. A habitual fuck up is probably always going to be a…fuck up. I wish I could tell this story without the use of profanity…but I can’t and you will soon read why.
This is a verbatim transcript of what I believe were the last radio transmissions between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed;
Marsh – “I’m at the ranch, bring the Crew down” (for the fourth time)
Steed – “We’re in the black” (for the fourth time)
Steed – “We’re not going to make it”
Marsh – “I understand and I’m sorry”
Steed – “You’ve really FUCKED us this time”
Gary there have always been Casual factors and overhead plans that have put Fire Fighters at risk.
That has always been and always will be a factor in Fatalities. My only conclusion and way to combat this influence was to always work under one Factor.
I and only I am responsible for my crew, My Sector, My Division when it comes to Safety
The buck stops here at each level. Its my piece of line I see all the factors and information to make decisions. Follow the 10 and 18 and use them to make your points based on Safety of each and every man/women under you.
That is why we set the first responsibility on Steed and then Marsh. If the DIVS had been any one other than Marsh would Steed have ever left the Black. I think Not—————
I believe that Dr. Ted Putnam has hit on something that has been there for a long time.
The casual factor of directions from above that ignore the basic fire safety rules to accomplish their objectives with out the knowledge of what is happening right there on the ground. The Safety decision making is being taken away from the fire fighter on the line.
It is not happening all the time but it is becoming more frequent as Wild Land Fire becomes more integrated with Structure fire, as well as overhead who take over or promote them selves into higher positions.
IT AINT LIKE THE OLD DAYS ANY MORE.
No…it’s not like the old days anymore and I do understand it’s not going back to be like it was, but maybe it should just a little bit.
And once again, I have always conceded that the primary causal factor in the deaths of the crew was their catastrophic failure to follow even the rule of common sense. But as I have also repeatedly said, I want to know all of the causal factors, including all of the contributing ones.
And as usual Bob, you and I think more alike than we do think differently and so here is my primary example of just how right I have been all along even though it has taken years to get here, which is a very small consolation but it is something.
So…I told you so. (not you Bob, everyone)
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/yarnell-hill-fire-the-granite-mountain-hotshots-never-shouldve-been-deployed-mounting-evidence-shows-6656696
And the following is an excerpt of some of the things I told John in the very beginning. But once again, that was a failure on the part of Arizona State Forestry to save a few bucks by using a short team in the first place and then cannibalizing to fill in critical positions. Which can be done right, but it shouldn’t be your plan going in to save money.
“When the state relinquished control of the situation by making Marsh division supervisor, he had authority to move his crew wherever he believed was necessary, without seeking permission from superiors.
“This removed an important check-and-balance,” Olson says.
If Marsh had been required to contact a state division supervisor — one not influenced by the structural-protection philosophy espoused by Willis — he surely would have been ordered to remain in the already-burned terrain or to move south along the jeep road that provided clear access to a main highway, Olson surmises.
“That is a direct causal factor in their deaths because there wasn’t another level of supervision outside of thinking like a structural firefighter,” Olson says.”
And Willis started out by saying we will just never know why the crew did what they did, which of course was just one of his many lies. He knew at the time he said that exactly why the crew did what they did, but he was and is up to his neck in the cover up.
Oh…and one more thing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making money off of wildfires, I used to do it quite a bit and I am still being paid to a large extent off the 14 years I did that for a living. But only IF you belong there in the first place.
Bob is that the key here? I wondered if methods have changed so that men do not challenge orders that obviously would compromise their safety. Is this a modern thing or is it more an isolated incident related to GMHS type thinking and risk taking to full fill their hybrid expectations.
The thing Ted Putnman is investigating on Mann Gulch proved out to be different to the reports made by the state at that time and Ted has shown that to be an incident caused by an outside source and beyond their sight and control.
It seems society in general has come to rely more and more upon others (authority) for their safety concerns. We see government agents and police take over with strict controls now (Fema) where generally people should be a community that would defend themselves. You look at the riots in LA after Rodney King and people were helpless if they had no defensible weapons since Police would not even go in knowing they themselves would be at risk. People are made to believe that authorities are the answer, while we see to much failure such as the Yarnell incident where authorities–in this case fire departments–took no action. Then when they finally did it seems the same thing inside the GMHS is seen–the men relied too much on authority (and authority speak about safe blankets) to take care for their safety. Obviously that did not happen and because the men allowed it and if they did protest it was a weak one, they were taken to the slaughter as JD aptly described it.
My God, locally we have people turning in people for a dog loose for gods sake in a hamlet like Yarnell. There is a couple here that go around writing down petty infractions of the law. Even worried about my chickens so that the county comes visit me. So we go see that a man charged with a loose dog is looking at up to 4 months in jail and no maximum on the fine–one lady here got a $1400 fine. This is getting to be like the communist system where neighbors become suspect and people work for the system to feed their neighbor to the prison system for minor problems that should be taken care of by neighbors.
When it comes to wild land fire fighting we certainly need specialists that as Gary says know a few simple tasks yet damn well know the safety rules and procedures that insure safe work with bosses that are concerned more for safety and the lives of their men than looking good and seeking out awards and advancement based on their willingness to obey orders despite the risks to their subordinate and despite the slim chance they might do some good protecting structures.
I am for less dependence on local structural fire departments to do any kind of a lightening strike to protect their communities and more inclined to have citizens swarm the thing early on. A strong trained group of non paid men concerned for their own property and others in the neighborhood, to me would seem a good thing to be used only for taking care of such things as lightening strikes. Leave out the local fire departments unless they actually care enough for their community to have due diligence.
I am ears for your comment and it would be a great thing to have men of good ability such as experienced wild land fire fighters to train such groups as to what they could do and what safety measures to be understood.
I wonder at what point, then, Eric Marsh actually decided to simply commit suicide?
Good point about Eric Marsh’s use of the phrase ‘heel of the fire’, even as late as 4:27 PM, when Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble captured Marsh saying that to someone else also working in that Arizona Forestry workplace. Someone who a DIVS would feel obligated to ‘report’ to.
It shows how out of touch with reality Marsh was… even as late as 4:27 PM.
The place where GM had been working most of the day had ceased to be any kind of ‘heel’ of anything long before 4:27 PM.
Long before 4:27 PM… all previous ‘tails’ or ‘flanks’ had become active, running ‘heads’.
Even according to ABC15 Helicopter ‘Air15’ raw video footage taken from above the fire between 3:50 PM and 4:40 PM… the ‘heel’ had long since ‘burned over’ even before Eric Marsh is heard on the radio, at 4:27 PM, telling SOMEONE else in fire command… “They’re coming from the heel of the fire”.
Even when all the full evidence finally emerges… it will still boggle the mind why these men who are all supposed to be known for having ‘courage’ didn’t elect to just tell the truth in the first place. There would still remain the fact that despite ANY orders from above… both Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed had the ultimate responsibility to protect the men under their own charge… and REFUSE the orders.
WTKTT,
You posted: “There would still remain the fact that despite ANY orders from above… both Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed had the ultimate responsibility to protect the men under their own charge… and REFUSE the orders.”
Absolutely and much MORE!
They also had a DUTY and an OBLIGATION to protect the life, safety, and welfare of those under their charge and REFUSE to leave the good black and go anywhere until the explosive fire behavior ceased.
Everyone else, all other WFF’s were told to disengage and retreat to safe locations, and they did.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on April 7, 2016 at 7:42 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Everyone else, all other WFF’s were told to disengage and
>> retreat to safe locations, and they did.
Yes… and I have always wondered if *maybe* ( just maybe? ) Marsh himself might have used this as some kind of bullshit ‘point’ during his (extended) ‘argument’ with Steed while Marsh was just trying to convince this man who he was supposedly ‘tutoring’ to replace him to just “do what I tell you”.
I wonder if Marsh ever resorted to some kind of twisted logic like…
“But Jesse… Gary Cordes already said ‘all Units go to your predetermined safety zones’… and he told us this morning that OURS is that ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’… so we NEED to go there or we’re disobeying an order from Cordes”.
…or some such happy horseshit.
Not very likely… but I’ve always wondered if that ‘everyone go to your predetermined safety zones’ directive from Cordes ever ‘came into play’.
I would like to speak from the depth of my heart here.
Yes, there is yet to come “missing elements” but when we do this
Jesse:
Marsh:
dialogues…
I rather remember them how I saw them that day and I saw them in the morning spent and tired and I can only imagine what frustrations and chaos and clouded communication took place but in the end I personally remember my heroes whole and as good men and as good wildland firefighters not to make me think something they are not but because they were and are-
I personally thank each and everyone of you here for BEING here STILL to this date.
I myself have to do a Marti Reed and take a six month+ breather “unless” I have someone come to me with documented details.
I will probably peak if Sonny is coming here but I am hoping he too can refocus to areas we love and that is to go out there and explore and pioneer- and doing defensible space-
I love the fact that each one expresses themselves and not what one wants to hear-
I choose to remember them as tired and the radios were not working and there was confusion and frustrations and chaos-
These are good men. I see “scapegoating” and everyone that was on that crew that perished plus Donut were tired and if Eric Marsh was at unease spot that day…it lays in the canyon base but not in the top of those mountains and I will not support the idealogy of these arguments and orders unless you knew the men THAT day; THAT moment…and you can show me such…Can we remember these men were tired…they were not suppose to be there that day…why are we not focusing on those areas…those factors…these men did the BEST they could for that day…that moment…a multitude of factors happened that day from all areas…some do need to step up to the plate for their responsibility at YHF vs saying the answers died with the men that day.
These men deserve that respect for the pure manner things need to change so this never happens again to another firefighter.
Things happened quickly in that canyon base…everyone of these men deserve to know they did their BEST on that job that day on a fire they should of been at home asleep and on a rest day.
They did their best that day. Who allowed these men to be there that day initially is in the wrong in my humble opinion.
This was a difficult moment with so much men doing their best of their abilities for they were spent that morning when I saw them…I do think Anthony’s family will one day be open to hike it with me years down the road as I shared my day with Grant’s father and Anthony in all my heart and maybe one day Donut can tell me yes or no but I in my humble thinking think Anthony was to be in Donut’s spot that day or was not to be there that moment and I doubt this book coming out soon of Donut’s will touch base on that morning in the buggy and the hike up and that Weaver ridge and their private talks-
Now, I am going to open my heart right now.
I know, I know I can be YODA and oversensitive and emotional but I do not always tie my heart in all this—truth. Hard thing for me.
Dr. Ted Putnam is a pure pure man. He is focused to the Mann Gulch but I am sure in talks he shared his views on the YHF to people but I was shocked that a public article came out and I am really at peace on it but for the people who state “alleged” like Joy H. and J. Stout- this is not a person like your average joe shmoe unnamed- this is D R . T E D P U T N A M- a man I put on the spot and he spoke with purity- that man has no angle…no agenda but he does want to make sure that lies ARE NOT institutionalized in the firefighting community and I back him up because I walk those mountains and I know those men were tired and I know if the certain ones did not circle immediately around certain widows after the fire– if the elements of purity surfaced we are talking into the millions not a settling of any kind…but we do not live in a kind world like such but you can expect truth and kindness from Dr. Ted Putnam.
I am sooooo happy one area from this fire aftermath healed for me personally.
Some of the people not sharing…are guided to make people have the belief it was the men’s fault or to keep bringing up the LCES and 10&18 to shadow out the ones who might be able to properly bring out clarity to the world really what was going on that SPECIFIC day not prior fires…but until all information is out I stay an outsider from RTS, Bob and many million others that this fire can be guesstimated or directed but NOT properly assessed- and no book or movie can be made RIGHT until that happens yet welcome to HOLLYWOOD because nothing is really real there anyways. BUT Dr. Ted Putnam is for reals. I can state that.
I can tell you what I did learn in all this— there are some you would not want to see in a dark alley or at least myself-
These men are not be talked about like two men did this and that and “scapegoat” them until you share the whole package and not let’s make the world see the screw ups of these 2 men—what the F’ about the others that are not speaking up—what about their responsibility—THEIR screw ups. FOCUS there. What about all those redacted information and what that could tell us…I won’t accept it’s the guys faults…when operations are redacting and omitting—and not being forthcoming—OPEN MIND and be willing to evaluate the WHOLE thing honestly not fixated on these guys only—we need to make good operational decisions and yes the men made mistakes but they are not here to talk about them but there are those who can that were on the fire talk about their own errors—stop being fixated on certain belief systems until all information is out—make good operations.
period and end of story—
Have a great Spring…time to plan some funerals…so taking respite.
Thank you for your contributions, Joy. Take care of yourself and hope you make it back when it’s right for you. I think you had a lot of good things to say right there.
Woodsman
Joy, you know the real world well enough. The Yahoos that ordered Marsh and crew down are not about to take accountability at this late stage. Only people that actually witnessed what went on can come forward and explain what really happened and who was directing the traffic that day that caused the deaths. Anyone on the high streets that parallel Hwy. 89 on the east side (only a couple high streets) could be a lookout and see the progress of the fire and easily pinpoint where the men were on the two track. I think you can even see that from the Ranch House Café. That deputy that told us they knew where those men all the time had to be correct since you can easily see the two track and likely even see the men on the two track from there. You definitely can see that small flag and pole and they were only a couple hundred yards farther on the two track (as the crow flies). With binoculars you could even see if they had their shirt sleeves rolled up and if they had shaved that day. So the statement that no one knew where they were seems lame once you look at the situation and some boss that had to be looking at that mountain and the men and the fire progress either from the Ranch House Café or one of those high streets I mentioned.
Woodsman which brings us back to the statement about strictly obeying orders. How much does that weigh against you when your boss says go down there and take care of those structures. If Marsh repeated four times to get your asses down to Yarnell, how many times did someone repeat to Marsh the urgent order to get your men down there to Yarnell to do what you men do–protect structures. Will Donut and others ever own up to what they heard or will they continue to excuse themselves under the weak guise of not wanting to hurt the feelings of loved ones. Bullshit, the loved ones want the truth except in a few obvious cases.
You cant fix stupid as was written up by one of the fire fighters on this site. But you can tout them as heroes to try to save face for gross errors. Perhaps they are heroes in some sense–maybe someone can explain that one to me. I am at a loss, maybe I better go to the dictionary since I have only a sense of a hero being someone that saves lives not takes them.
I would also like to point out the fact that Steed used the words “this time” as part of his short goodbye statement to Marsh.
Steed – “You’ve really FUCKED us this time”
I hear Steed telling Marsh you just fucked us over for the last time, just like you have done so many times before, but THIS time you have really gone and done it.
Steed, like ALL WFF’s had a CHOICE.
He and all the other WFF’s under his charge, had a CHOICE to refuse the assignment if it was UNSAFE, ILLEGAL, IMMORAL, OR UNETHICAL.
Beyond a shadow of a doubt, it was UNSAFE.
“Steed, like ALL WFF’s had a CHOICE.”
Agreed.
“He and all the other WFF’s under his charge, had a CHOICE to refuse the assignment if it was UNSAFE, ILLEGAL, IMMORAL, OR UNETHICAL.”
Agreed.
“Beyond a shadow of a doubt, it was UNSAFE.”
Agreed.
…and Steed’s choice was NO. He refused.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You reposted my post: ““Beyond a shadow of a doubt, it was UNSAFE.”
The posted: “Agreed. …and Steed’s choice was NO. He refused.”
I’m not a very sharp guy, so please clarify these for me here.
Do you mean Steed’s choice was NO, it was NOT unsafe. So, being a double negative, it was safe?
You also posted: “He refused.”
He refused what? He was instructed by Marsh to head down to the BSR, felt they could not make it, and then went ahead and took them down, thus following Marsh’s instructions..
So then, what did he refuse?
RTS,
Sorry it was confusing for you. The period after “NO” meant I ended my fragment of a sentence and it was just “NO.”
I showed that I was replying to your statements by putting them in quotes with my answer of agreement after each one.
He refused the order to move the crew from the black as evidenced by the argument. Are you claiming that he did not refuse the order to move the crew?
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You posted: “He refused the order to move the crew from the black as evidenced by the argument. Are you claiming that he did not refuse the order to move the crew?”
He refused Marsh’s direction to move the Crew several times, however, he then gave in and followed that direction and left the safe black.
So, yes, I am claiming that he ultimately, in the final moments, did not refuse the order to move. In the end, he obeyed Marsh’s direction to take the Crew down to the BSR.
RTS,
Ah, but I did not ask you what he did ‘ultimately,’ I asked you if you claimed he did not refuse the order.
As you say, Steed refused “Marsh’s direction to move the Crew several times.” I notice that you did not say ‘order’ you said ‘direction.’ I know why you did that. You did that in anticipation of what you know is coming. See, you should give yourself more credit. You’re pretty smart.
Since, according to your own words, Steed refused “Marsh’s direction (order) to move the Crew several times,” how can you possibly attribute Steed’s service as a United States Marine to his affinity to blindly follow orders no matter what? In point of fact, he refused the order several times by your own admission.
Your conclusion on prior military service, and it’s influence when it comes to obeying orders on a hotshot crew, is wrong.
Woodsman
RTS,
Since your next move is predictable & I know what it is, I would like to save you time & energy in cutting and pasting. I don’t require any quotes or references from military personnel, military books, studies, or articles; and I don’t need you to tell me your opinion based on what Steed’s widow thinks of her husband being a good Marine. Steed’s actions proved your conclusion in this regard to be incontrovertibly false.
The premise was constructed on shaky ground and I’ve shown you why it’s false. Whether this was your intention or not, the entire idea is misleading, and serves to place blame where is should not be. When blame is misplaced it does not benefit anybody.
I request that you cease to make this claim in any future presentations, training or accounts to any entity whatsoever. We should provide the best information possible in order to learn from this event & have the best chance of preventing a situation like this from ever happening again.
Thank you.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
AMAZING! Since you claim to know what I think, you must have the unique ability to know what others think as well. So then, we’re all wasting our time here, and we should just allow you to post everything, since you have it all figured out.
Have at it.
But Steed did eventually strictly obey orders as a good marine would do even if it entailed risking his live. What is a big ? on his part was why he did not absolutely refuse to risk the lives of those under him. It seems some big cheese above Marsh must have influenced his decision.
I maybe look at things differently than a wild land-structural fire fighter hybrid. Since I was right at the very point they went down and had perhaps at least an hour before refused to accept going down, I do know that no way you would have convinced me to go down even at that early time. We after all were watching something few get to see–a wild fire in its highest potency–doing what Wooten and Morrison described as releasing as much energy every 15 minutes as a Hiroshima type nuclear bomb releases instantly, then you should have no thought of ever dropping off in an “NO EXIT”, non escapable situation if that inferno decides it wants to turn and come at you. Damn even at that early time common sense should tell everyone, hell no — that Big Dog is gone, stay the hell out of its way and hope if you get entangled because you lack good common sense that it does not come and get you.
Had those bosses watching from a view point, and they had to be to be able to see the situation, then they would have stopped those men from ever descending into the brush. The only thing would be if Marsh disobeyed orders and went against his bosses. That is very highly unlikely–his credo was to strictly obey orders and he did.
Thanks Gary. You were the first man with top credentials to tell the true story of what happened. You rank with Dr. Ted Putnam in credibility. There are a few others that report here that are at the top as well. It is when the media, and these book writers, along with the movie producers come and listen to what you men that have been there, taken care of your crews lives and your own, that good results will come. The bare truth that you and many on this site lay out will save lives of the wild land fire fighter hero. Dead heros we do not need, so your expertise and straight forward talk will minimize that dreadful thought.
I think some people think a civilian has no part or understanding in this melee. But in fact the tax payer has footed a huge bill, and as a Yarnell resident I have to know why I was removed from my abode due to this fire, had to spend time in an evacuation center, live through a shitty martial law situation, wander around on the desert for almost a year as a classified homeless person until I at last was able to purchase a cabin again in Yarnell. We do not want to see this happen again and I know I am not the only one that suffered through this catastrophe that could have been taken care of on the very first day it started.
To Steed’s credit it seemed he refused Marsh’s order four times. But he like Marsh did to his superior cave in. So these fellows are involved in killing at least 17 by negligent action. Steed knew it, Marsh had to have known it was negligent as well, and so did the boss or bosses that gave orders to descend out of the black to a risky structure protection job–something that no wild land fire fighter should even consider unless of course he is with a home owner manning a garden hose and swinging a Pulaski. Seems a dumb thing to think of for a wild land fire fighter that has to risk his life to even try what was impossible for a Pulaski equipped wild land fire fighter in Yarnell to start with.
But there is another responsibility and that needs to be understood and investigated as part of this dreadful cover up. Those men died because three fire departments in the area failed to respond to an emergency situation. The restricted area where the fire killed the men was an off shoot of the lightening fire. That fire, and a noted retire wild land fire fighter told me that he with a couple men could have and would have taken care of that fire on Friday as soon as they could get to it after learning about it. He said night time work is even better on a small strike like that since it is working out of that daytime heat. He in fact had taken care of fires of that order and did not understand why they let this fire balloon into a full fledged wild fire. So I see their failure to do due diligence during the time of extreme fire danger had a great deal to do with the reason for their deaths, half the town of Yarnell burned down, millions in tax money spent, and even the deaths and displacements of Yarnell and Peeples Valley residents.
Maybe these movie producers will study this fire beyond those trying to make this a heroic time and call a Spade a Spade.
Steed and his men were not the only ones screwed here. Yarnell home owners, dead ones after the fire to the tune of 84 and counting, a huge tax payer bill and nothing to help future wild land fighters to understand how the mistakes that GMHS crew made can keep them alive. It was obvious that Whitney did not want to speak and Joy H., the lawyer did not want to talk much. They know more than they want to say.
Thank you Sonny and I’m quite sure they know more than they want to say. And yes, I wish the Yarnell Hill Fire would have been put out with initial attack. Like the Woodsman said they do in an earlier post, hit em fast, hard and safely. That is the way I was taught, but then things eventually started to change to where we are now.
Oh…and one more thing. Thank you for your kind words…but Dr. Ted Putnam is in a different category and head and shoulders above everyone else.
Thanks for this Gary, and for the acknowledgment we’re still here – even if you guys cover a lot of distance in a day and it takes me ages to catch up.
The first time you came close to the exact wording in the “you killed us” dream it shocked me a lot more, and I mean shocked me to the core. It FELT like the sort of thing that really was said.
Therefore, this “exact wording”, well this is no longer a shock, and if it is as close as we all think to the truth…..it saddens me deeply.
Now all we need is for those that witnessed and KNOW what WE here around the campfire already know and have figured out, to come clean, in public.
Thanks Otis, always glad to hear from you. Thoughts from across the ocean are always welcome and valuable perspective.
I am going to post my most recent revelation because I really enjoy two things in my new life as an armchair kibitzer and meddling old fool. Telling people what I think and then telling them, “I told you so.”
1. The next to the last big piece of information that is unknown to you (who are indeed my closest friends and confidants) and me is the verbatim transcript of the last conversation (The Argument) between Marsh and Steed,
2. The last big piece of information is, “who is the mystery person who most of us here on this thread at least believe is on the radio ordering, requesting, cajoling Marsh to order Steed to bring the crew out of the black and to Yarnell di di mau most ricky tick over his objections that the move is not safe.”
But here is where my latest and possibly my most brilliant (yes, I am still having hubris flashbacks even though I have had the confidence kicked and beaten out of me so many times) idea comes in.
The reason this information is still a state secret is because it is far more complicated than that. Although there was only ONE person on the radio talking to Marsh, there were several people behind the “Hail Mary Plan” that did indeed exist and they were trying their best to implement when the crew was killed.
This frantic, last ditch, ill advised and ultimate disastrous plan was indeed a major CAUSAL and CONTRIBUTING factor in the deaths of the crew in spite of Bob and Fred’s (and many others within the system) frequent and continual assertions that is all of Marsh and Steed and no one else.
Drum roll please. EVERYONE was in on the plan. When it is finally revealed in all of its shortsightedness it will be an indictment of the entire deeply flawed and corrupted HYBRID Wildland Firefighting System. Those names will include Able, Cordes, Musser and Willis, at least through known expectations.
This will finally demonstrate without question that it is just as I told JD when he was writing his very first article…the HYBRID nature of the crew is what killed them. The only part I was wrong about, and that is because I was oblivious to just how bad and pervasive the problem has become, is that it was not just a blueprint for disaster for the crew, the entire WF system has become a blueprint (or recipe, pick your metaphor) for DISASTER.
And everyone who is sitting on that information right now, which is probably hundreds of people, are all dependent on that system for their livelihood and they all have a vested interest in propagating that bastardized and deeply flawed system.
And the real story is not that that system was a major causal factor in the deaths of the crew, but that it has been a major contributing factor in the deaths and serious injuries of many firefighters including those from the Esperanza and Twisp Fires.
Oh…and a couple of more things. I didn’t forget about Roy Hall and I assume he was in on the Hail Mary Plan, I’m just not sure how operational he really was. I have gotten the impression he was somewhat isolated in the middle of planning for a transition of the fire to another team.
Plus, I have also gotten the impression that unlike Marsh, Hall was not a micro manager, I think he may have had the philosophy to hire good people (his words) and let them work but I don’t really know much about him, although I do think I vaguely knew him during our early teenage years when we were both growing up on ranches in the White Mountains. He and his brother from a ranching family and me from a ranching family once removed as in, “send Gary there instead of Fort Grant.” We live in a very small world with only six degrees of separation…right? There are a lot fewer in the WF world, usually only one or two degrees at the most.
The other thing? There is no doubt in my mind that Marsh was at the BSR and ran back to the crew once he found out they weren’t going to make it, in effect committing suicide. Which if I am right (and many others are as well) about that, it makes all of this so much sadder because that will prove (probably) that the crew could have escaped to the ranch but they were prevented from doing so by their faith, over reliance and deeply flawed training in their fire shelters (see, The Coffee Can Syndrome).
In addition, I still believe they were slipping into condition black from condition red where they were already experiencing tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and other physiological reactions because their bodies were experiencing enormous adrenaline dumps and therefore they were unable to receive and process new information and alternatives in real time.
Gary,
I’m bringing this up from down below.
They were in an ‘Escalation Commitment,’ very similar to Groupthink, to follow through on a failed plan once they made the decision to leave the safe black and step off the high ridge (mid-slope) road and CONTINUE DOWN deeper into the unburned chute.
They were in a dilemma, mainly from NOT following the basics of LCES.
Taken from Escalating Commitment in in Individual and Group Decision Making posted in Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes, 54, 430-455 (1993) by Glen Whyte.
I have tried posting the link 4 times and failed every time, so just GTS the above to find the article. Well worth reading.
OK…I will, thank you. I would also like you to tell me what the f**** (as you say) three out of the four men whom I believe are responsible for ordering the crew to their deaths were doing while the crew was not following LCES, and many of the 10 and 18, which I have willingly conceded many times.
I grew up in the same U.S. Forest Service that you did (I think), except for your time in R-5 and I have already taken a shot at Bob in the post above, so that’s enough about R-5.
I lived my entire adult life from 1974 until only a couple of months ago, after reading some of the Woodman’s comments, knowing that the two words…Battalion Chief go together just like the words…Space Alien do.
And now here I am tonight…still not entirely sure what a Battalion Chief OR a Space Alien is, what they look like, where they come from or what it is they do? It has literally taken me this long to realize that I am now talking about two of the three men whom I believe ordered the crew to their deaths over the multiple objections of their crew boss were something called…Battalion Chiefs and a fourth man was someone who wanted to be a…Battalion Chief.
I don’t know what Paul Musser, whom I believe is a retired U.S. Forest Service hotshot from the Flagstaff Hotshots of the Mighty Coconino, so I mostly leave him out of this. I know he doesn’t really give a flyin’ F*** if a tree with a door in it burns down…or up, or what he was doing for sure that day, but common sense tells me I really should leave him out of this equation…except he WAS there.
What the f*** is a Battalion Chief and what the f*** are they doing in OUR house? And will somebody PLEASE out take the GARBAGE…because it is stinking up the house that we built.
Gary,
Ah, the Battalion Chief…I can tell you what that creature is.
From Wiki:
“A battalion chief is the rank and title of a subordinate fire chief or commanding officer in the firefighting command structure. The title of battalion chief is usually synonymous with firefighting in the United States and Canada.
A battalion chief is the lowest chief officer in a fire department’s rank structure, above rank-and-file fire station and fire company officers. A battalion chief commands a firefighting battalion, similar to a military battalion. A battalion consists of several fire stations and multiple fire companies. A battalion chief has command over each fire station’s officers and each company or unit’s officers, as well as the uniformed firefighters.
A battalion chief is usually under the command of a division, deputy, or assistant chief, who in turn reports to a chief of department, chief engineer, or a fire commissioner. The Detroit Fire Department, the New York City Fire Department, the Chicago Fire Department, the Sacramento Fire Department , CAL FIRE and the Los Angeles Fire Department all have battalion chiefs in their rank structure.”
Sidenote before I go on because I don’t want to leave it out: Notice CALFire (California Dept of Forestry/CDF) employ BC’s…as I said before, CALFire is the founder and originator of the wildland-municipal hybrid model.
A Battalion Chief is used to being in total command of operations on an incident whether it be a structure fire, motor-vehicle accident, water rescue, hazmat, train derailment, etc………oh, and wildfires too. In modern ICS we operate on the “Unified Command” principle on wildfires. This is supposed to mean that both the wildland agency and the structural fire department employ an incident commander and they “co-command” the wildfire incident. It’s actually codified in some states that the authority of one cannot usurp the authority of the other & vice versa.
A Battalion Chief is used to having authority over multiple fire station officers and fire/rescue personnel on a shift. They are the ‘field generals’ of the structural world. Their culture aligns them with a mindset of being in charge of people and fireground tactics. They give orders and subordinates obey them.
I just came off an IA this week that had multiple BC’s on scene. The power struggle that ensued among themselves was typical and predictable. The suggested tactics were wrong because they didn’t understand wildland procedure and safety considerations. A very interesting comment I heard in the background while I was in the process of doing my job (and ignoring them) was: ” I just wanna DO SOMETHING.”
They are used to being in charge of the entire incident but unfortunately are not qualified to manage developing wildfire incidents due to their cultural DNA. Different types of incidents require different response methods, rules, tactics, and risk analysis. You can’t throw them all together in a box and call them the same but we do. It’s called ‘All Hazard’ response and is part modern ICS.
They demanded to be a part owner of our house and we let them through the evolution of ICS. Wildland agencies saw it as saving money and being a good ‘cooperator.’ Enter FEMA’s NIMS or National Incident Management System. From FEMA:
“NIMS provides a consistent nationwide template to enable all government, private-sector, and nongovernmental organizations to work together during domestic incidents.”
We are all on the same team but come together bringing very different pedigree’s, attitudes, and expectations of one another. They take over and call the shots because that’s just what they do. I can only imagine the orders, demands, and power struggle that ensued that day at Yarnell. “I JUST WANNA DO SOMETHING!”
Ah, the Battalion Chief.
Woodsman
Gary,
Wildland fire academies are created and run in order to provide the proper training for wildfire response. These academies are usually sponsored and run by state forestry agencies and federal land management agencies whom have wildfire management as one of their responsibilities. It has become ‘news to me’ that other organizations are performing these wildfire training academies themselves. Incidentally, these ‘other organizations’ are rooted in a different culture – the structural side.
The goal of the academies is to teach the knowledge and skills required for wildfire response and management to anyone who has wildfire responsibilities. It is a good thing to teach to everyone this knowledge in order to have the most safe and effective wildland firefighting possible. There is a ‘side effect’ though.
The process goes like this. At the academy, war stories are typically shared by wildland firefighters who have traveled to different parts of the country and fought fire. It all sounds so damn exciting and glamorous. Just think, that huge wildfire that they saw on the nightly news in California with the big airshow, that could be them playing a part in the action. THEN THEY WANT A RED CARD. I can’t leave out one other thing – the cash. It is discovered that one can make some good extra money while helping on a wildfire somewhere. More investigation ensues and they figure out the different positions in ICS. (ChaChing!) They are separated by function and given different pay rates. No Battalion Chief is going to stay at the bottom of the pecking order very long if at all…(‘are you kidding me? I’m a Battalion Chief!) and soon task books are flying out the door. BC’s don’t see themselves as basic firefighters but as chief officers. So they are catapulted up the system into supervisor positions. The problem lies in the fact that they haven’t ‘been there done that.’ They don’t possess the context of the big picture through years and years coming up in the system.
So, we trained them. They figured out how to get a red card.,jumped up the system to get into high leadership positions, signed off on each others task books after getting into these positions, created their own academies, obtained the ability to have access to ROSS (national dispatch). and travel the country filling major leadership roles on wildfires. Problem? You tell me.
They did it for money, prestige, power, and to feed their massive egos. I do believe that most just wanted to help but their ego and ignorance is, many times, a hindrance to safe, competent wildfire management. My crystal ball says it will only get worse with FEMA attempting to co-opt wildfire management from NWCG. I hope to get out as soon as possible and go fishing before it gets much worse. We’ll see.
Woodsman
Copy that.
Thank you Woodsman
That is one of the best and strait forward explanations I have seen.
Which brings us to the Urban Interface mess. Before the fire hits Federal lands or comes out of Federal land the who is in charge goes into BOBO LAND in some areas or maybe all.
Thanks Bob.
It’s not just private land in the urban interface I’m talking about here. It’s federal land as well. Even fires originating on federal land. The structure folks are members of Type 1 and Type 2 Incident Management Teams (IMT’s.) now. They are firmly in the system so you will get these folks on any kind of wildfire in any place out there.
Woodsman
Thanks and understood I did not go far enough.
Will add my Son In-law works for the City of Ravesndale Washington. I was totally pulled up short when he went to a Federal Fire in Northern Washington last year as a Equipment camp manager.
Never ever been on a fire but went to the training and was certified.
He is the City Engineer and in charge of the Road and utilities crews.
The new and changing world in wild land fire—–
Woodsman,
You nailed it! I have seen it first hand, get a gold badge and you can do anything/everything. Regardless of experience. Some how the system needs to change to prevent this, not sure how though since now there’s gold badges managing the system.
I have only seen one gold badge STL ( not qualified) realize he was over his head and resigned his STL upon return from his assignment on the Cottonwood fire in 94. A running timber fire that made him realize he couldn’t walk on water!
Norb,
Thanks for your supporting thoughts. I really appreciate that. It helps to hear from multiple people and share their experiences. Truth and honesty, that’s what it’s all about.
Woodsman
Norb,
Thanks for making me think. I at least give credit to the STL that you are talking about that swallowed his pride and admitted he was in over his head as a Strike Team Leader. Since he did that much, I won’t beat him up for doing that when he got home and not on the incident. Stepping down is rare, as you said.
How do we change it? Shame. Accountability, & a check in the system to keep demanding competent supervision. There is a pathway to fireline leadership. It must be followed to the letter. A template was created by the USFS when it was the leader in wildfire management. Get back to the basics. The actual IHC’s have a good system that works in determining their leadership. These leaders typically move on to other fire jobs in the Forest Service and are the one’s who should be filling these roles on Incident Management Teams because they have ‘been there done that.’
Woodsman
Coming from a county department, (no longer – i worked my way out), I too have seen this first hand and was actually a part of it. I’m now part of a national network where this sort of thing is being encouraged and can honestly say I am the only one standing up against it (and getting ridiculed in the process).
I’ve started a nonprofit part of which is wanting to train youth in wildland and Rx. (the rest is beating common sense and responsibility into wui homeowners heads). I’ve teamed up with an organization supporting private contractors who happens to have training MOUs with each region (therefore, we can eventually issue our own redcards). The key to this will be instructors (like YOU woodsman, norb, and any one else who would care to help), who have the ability to pass your knowledge on, and create crews that can start to show the way back to some sort of sanity. Those guys (who will be trained to have a backbone) will then either stay in the private realm or move into and inject some sense and spine into the agency system.
I have no idea if it’ll work, I have no idea if I can run a nonprofit (just a dumbass former firefighter myself)… but I feel an incredible urge to try.
I’ve been following you all for about a year and a half now. The day yarnell happened, I was up in a one-way-in-and-out mountainous, overstocked, and suicidal neighborhood trying once again to beat some sense into the folks living there. As i was driving home I heard the news. Not sure why it struck me so hard, but I got home and puked (which I don’t do very often). I went round and round trying to figure out how and why that could have happened. Then I found you all and started reading all the docs posted online… its become somewhat of an obsession to stay on top of it.
I ran this idea by Gary a while back, and I’d now like to run it by you all. i operate quietly and generally don’t tell folks what i’m doing till it works… but this last exchange made me think that maybe this is the time to speak up and try to get some help with my idea. The worst it can do is fail… but at least i won’t be beating up on myself for not making the attempt.
I also just wanted to express a deep thank you to all of you (and John especially for providing the venue) who have and continue to dig deep to find out what the hell happened. I have a huge amount of respect for each and every one of you.
The space alien is a strange creature Gary. If he is anything like a Batallion Chief then he would be a dark creature with no moral inclinations. The space alien is short in stature but quick of mind and tricks. The space alien is somewhat like the leprechaun but more in the neighborhood of a mechanical being.
Too bad you fellows do not regard your bosses like us miner’s do. We always said a good miner is hard to find, but a shifter is a dime a dozen. The only good shifter I had and was of any help stayed away in his bosses shack until the end of the shift when we would wake him up. He enjoyed good whiskey until he passed out or got drowsy and slept.
As a miner though you did not have a crew to worry about. Just a helper, but you always took the dangerous job yourself before risking your helper’s life. That one cost me being busted up at Standard Oil’s Seboyeta Uranium mine. But had that green one been there he would be dead instead of busted. It goes to show common sense can keep you and your man alive but without it dead in these bad situations.
Is a shifter a shift supervisor?
Yes a mine shifter is a supervisor. He would have from 2 to ten miners depending on the mine to supervise. His supervision amounted to moving the miner to a new working area and keeping an eye on progress. Not much to do for a shifter in a mine since if he were worth his beans he would be mining. Back in the 70’s they would draw maybe $7 an hour like the tungsten mine at Tempaiute Nv with Union Carbide paid them while my helper and I were pulling $26 or better an hour. We got paid for footage, they got paid for bullshit. The mine foreman above them would tell them what to do and then a mine Superintendent above them all had final say. You seldom if ever saw the mine Superintendent or mine foreman except in smaller mines. In the mount hope mine there was no shifter and the mine foreman ran the show. But he too stayed out of the way of the miners.
That is why I wonder why the man on the wildfire line is paid so little. That man is busting ass and doing the dangerous work, while bosses like Marsh can stay out of the way of a fire and the work. Of course you need someone to look out and keep tabs, communication and see that the job is being done. But that man on the line should have about as much sense or more than the boss since he is like the miner on the face. When you turn on a jack leg underground in close quarters everyone scatters that does not have to be there. Also packing a round with dynamite gives bosses good reason to keep away from the area. Then once you blast you are bound to get a powder headache from the powder fumes–good reason for bosses to see you only when necessary.
It can’t be that the bosses in wild land fire fighting hire dummies that do not know how to stay alive and see when they are in a no win situation. In the mines you would quickly be sent down the road if you got into open stopes where widow makers can and do kill many miners. It would seem that these men that go on a line ought to be wise enough to take care of themselves and such things as strictly take order shit taken out of the vocabulary for their benefit.
If they do not follow safety rules just as Marsh and crew did not there could be several reasons.
First they are either ignorant or they are risk takers.
Second they are under strict orders and taught that they must obey and fear their jobs if not. The bosses there enforce an order that in the Yarnell case killed all the men. Marsh’s order did that and it seems he committed suicide when he could have saved his own ass.
There are other contributing factors that Dr. Ted Putnam, Gary, Bob and others talk about like human factors and putting faith in a turkey roaster blanket.
But until you train men to have sense enough to not break rules of engagement when a fire is in the Yarnell Sunday Stage then you will continue to have these deaths. So Gary says all other crews were told to back off by their bosses. But you should know when to back off without a boss. And if you are so ignorant as to do what we saw with the 19 then you do not to be on the line as a wild land fire fighter. Good lord, as a mine I have given a boss the fuck you talk more than once, and that is because we never heard such shit as we must strictly take orders from anybody. Our life and safety did not rest on a bosses decision but our own. However, like in wild land fire fighting, some bosses looked out for your safety but many did not have sense enough–like the one I mentioned at the Ward mine. An old miner boss but 12×12 timbers mushrooming on top did not impress him to back out of that situation. As mentioned here, Marsh the risk taker got caught. So did Bill and his men that followed him–except Bill and company lucked out by finding an air shaft and crawling out on their knees. Fortunately the air shaft was not caved as well since a year later Bill and a helper were still mucking out that cave in a quarter mile back in the main tunnel–Ward mine south of Ely, NV.
So something is bad wrong with the way things are done–certainly in the Yarnell situation and what went wrong needs to be in the fore front. JD had done a great job allowing the wild land fire fighters so much latitude in talking about the Yarnell fire. That is what will save lives.
The other thing is how badly paid these men are. No wonder they wind up using inexperienced people like Donut in one of the most important jobs possible–knowing when the men are in danger when he did not even know when he was about to be burned to death. With poor pay there will never be much desire for qualified people to take these dangerous jobs. Good pay will also cut down on people tempted to pad their hours as was shown in the GMHS books.
Shame on all these bosses for awards given on the Yarnell incident. This was a miserable failure at fire fighting and as far as I am concerned the millions wasted on big memorial parks etc should have went to better the wild land fire fighters. You damn well know Marsh and crew would second that.
Keep right on “tellin’ it like it is”, Irish.
Well we have the best here WTKTT. But it was also nice to have Dr. Ted Putnam in agreement with the general view on this site. He told me tonight that he really has been focused on the Mann Gulch thing and although he knows much about the Yarnell incident he had not intended to yet get started on it. He is bringing me an older GPS since he upgraded. I like older since I am simple enough I can use the older stuff.
We certainly appreciate your work on this fire. I am always humbled by your abilities and range of knowledge and work at getting at the facts. It reminds me of my son who was a straight A student in Chemical Engineering classes. He had an IQ that qualified him for menses though he could converse with the man on the street. He told me Dad the reason I can talk to anyone is because I attended 7 schools in one year when you were a tramp miner. See mines close when the price of metal goes down but there is always a job in another place–maybe two states away but a miner can always get on if he shows up. And if conditions were not right can work a check or two and then haul out to a better situation in a day or two. That is not an option the wild land fire fighter has but ought to have perhaps?
There is wild land fire speak and there is miner speak. Some leave the middle hole of a five hole burn empty–no powder. Some like to load it with a stick of powder (dynamite) but it does not matter if you pull the round. If you don’t then you better figure out why in a hurry. Anyway wild land fire fighters ought not have hangover headaches if they work with the agent orange. The ammonia gas is what we used to cure head aches with by busting a little silk covered vial of ammonia solution and breathing the gas. It is a lung killer as well though but we never knew this. I had to get civilized with a computer to find out the dangers of that shit.
Gary, much respect to you sir. After talking to Ted you are for real and top credibility.–I already knew it but it was nice to hear Ted talk about you and your acquaintance in with him in wild land fire fighting.
Yes, and of course you are right Marsh was a risk taker rather than stupid. And you are right about the pay, but that is NOT the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the lack of benefits or career/job advancement and the fact that they get laid off for really long periods of time when it is hard to make ends meet.
Gary, I had a nice long chat with Ted tonight. He said you and he worked the Battlement fire together. He said he learned a lot from you on that fire that cost three lives. Mentioned that Mann Gulch, Battlement, Storm King and Yanell have a common theme in many ways. One thing was working uphill toward a fire that is down hill from you. He was mentioning how the Mann Gulch had crosses making the deaths of some a quarter mile away from where they actually happened. I forgot to mention that the co ordinates given by WTKTT that he got off records is about 2.5 miles east of where the actual strike took place. Of course that could be just error of writing them down, but then what is more fundamental in an investigation than trying to determine the exact location of the beginning of the fire?
Ted wants to hike to see where the new trail starts up the main and second rise to the top of the Weavers. Fortunately Joy has secured written permission to pass the private land that the trial either crosses or barely skirts on the west end. That guy lost machinery in the fire and has sued for several million. Ted can get a good view of the trail from private land and if it is on the land we will know by his boundary markers. Of course they can pass through his land by Arizona law if he does not have no trespassing signs every 50 ft. and the law numbers on the sign. I don’t know if the state is exempt from their own laws since there are absolutely no signs on the property they say is restricted. Some of the shape shifters will go through anyway.
This is a tough nut to crack when the Battalion Chiefs all are involved. Four? Too many chiefs and not enough Indians, well scouts at least. Someone was working blind when ordering men downhill toward a fire like that one. Even Marsh was blind if he did not see the danger–down hill in a chute wild fire near sounds like a slide into hell.
Listening to my psychic friend she says someone with gray rimmed glasses had much to do with this downhill into devil’s chute thing.
FYI… the same InvestigativeMEDIA article about today’s ‘Beta Staff Ride’ that appeared yesterday was also republished today ( April 5, 2016 ) at Phoenix New Times…
The Phoenix New Times
Article Title: Wildfire Expert Alleges Arizona Forestry Division
Covering Up Yarnell Hill Tragedy
Published: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 3 a.m
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/wildfire-expert-alleges-arizona-forestry-division-covering-up-yarnell-hill-tragedy-8186962
And just about an hour ago… the story has been ‘picked up’ by ‘FollowNews’…
http://www.follownews.com/wildfire-expert-alleges-arizona-forestry-division-covering-up-yarnell-hill-tragedy-1202u
Reply to J. Stout post on April 4, 2016 at 9:01 pm
>> J. Stout said…
>>
>> These are “allegations” that Mr. Putnam has made. Without providing
>> one single shred of evidence to support them. (At least not yet, that is.)
>>
>> But THAT appears to be something that does not matter at all to a
>> few participants of this YHF discussion. Allegations are “all” that’s
>> needed in order for them to say, “There you have it.” And promptly
>> arrive at a judgment. Or, for some, to even leap into the Sentencing
>> phase with a call for heads to roll.
>>
>> It seems that, in spite of the seriousness of this matter, they don’t see
>> any need for testimony that was given under oath … with the benefit of
>> cross-examination, or any kind of opportunity for an examination of the
>> evidence submitted before they are able to rush to announce
>> their guilty verdict.
>>
>> In the early chapters of this discussion, I can recall the suggestion being
>> made (more than once) that sometimes a person needs to stand back …
>> take a few minutes … take a deep breath …
>>
>> Looks to me like that is some good advice that could apply today.
Just as in the case of Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini going to the media to report there he had heard, with own ears, ‘evidence’ that Brendan McDonough had ALWAYS been ‘obstructing the investigations’ and had been LYING ( by omission ) to every investigator who had the misfortune to be in the same room with him…
…it is simply *highly likely* that Dr. Ted Putnam is NOT ‘making anything up’ regarding the information the HE, himself, says he has been ‘exposed’ to.
People with those kinds of solid ‘reputations’ do not generally ‘make shit up’.
That’s just a fact.
Brendan McDonough himself eventually CONFIRMED that Mr. Jon Paladini was CORRECT. I believe the same will happen regarding the information that now seems to be in the possession of Dr. Ted Putnam… but it will take a few more ‘steps’ and a little more ‘time’… just like it did with McDonough.
But regardless… what Dr. Ted Putnam is now saying is not really NEW.
If you have been following along here for 2+ YEARS… there has ALWAYS been ACTUAL concrete ‘evidence’ ( in Testimony, Unit Logs, Radio captures, Videos, etc. ) that the SAIT never revealed everything they knew with regards to what actually happened on June 30, 2013.
Speaking of which ( real evidence that DOES exist )…
Who do YOU think Eric Marsh was ‘reporting’ to ( as heard in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video shot by Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble ) at exactly 4:27 PM… just 12 minutes before Jesse Steed would make his first botched-MAYDAY call at 4:39 PM?
Or… to put it another way… WHO would a ‘Division Supervisor’ on a fire even feel obligated to report that kind of ‘status’ to over the radio?
Even the dead man’s WIFE has now CONFIRMED that is HIM reporting the ‘status’ of Granite Mountain’s hike progress to SOMEONE… at exactly 4:27 PM.
WHO do YOU think Eric was talking to, at that point?
Just curious.
More about the ‘Staff Ride’ article in a moment… but first this ‘commercial break’…
Brendan McDonough still practicing his declared profession of ‘Survivor’…
Brought to you by ‘Carry the Load’… and ‘Jack Links Beef Jerky and Meat Products’…
AZFamily
Article/Video Title: Yarnell fire survivor will get the ride of his life
http://www.azfamily.com/Clip/12327649/yarnell-fire-survivor-will-get-the-ride-of-his-life
You Just. Can’t. Make. This. Stuff. Up.
Seriously?! There were AT Luke AFB and couldn’t find one single soldier who served in our wars to take that ride? A cop or fireman who saved a life? If Brendan is our new definition of hero, we have lowered the bar so low that even a piece of Jack Links beef jerky can’t fit under it. I know real American heroes. This guy ain’t one of them.
Here is the HOME page for this “Carry the Load” organization…
http://www.carrytheload.org/site/PageServer?pagename=home
Their HOME page contains the following text…
————————————————————–
Carry The Load is a non-profit dedicated to restoring
the true meaning of Memorial Day.
Carry The Load was founded by former Navy SEALS
Clint Bruce and Stephen Holley.
————————————————————–
Brendan is actually called a ‘True American Hero’ by the reporter in the video above… even though it’s an absolute known fact that Brendan has already admitted, publicly, that he was always LYING ( by omission ) to every official investigator that had the misfortune to be in the same room with him.
There is only ONE photo on their HOME page… and it’s a picture of what appears to be Brendan McDonough… carrying the organization’s own flag… walking in FRONT of the group of soldiers lined up behind him carrying American flags.
I kid you not.
And just for the sake of completeness… here is the home page for
Jack Links Beef Jerky…
http://www.jacklinks.com/
Their home page has just one photo that comes up first as well.
It’s s photo of their new ‘Carne Asada Beef Jerky’… and you are right… it would have trouble fitting under the ‘new low bar’.
Followup…
And just in time for the ‘Staff Ride’… ‘Granite Mountain 19 Bike Racks’.
Brought to you by the ‘100 Club of Arizona’…
https://www.facebook.com/100Club/photos/a.434309497728.215970.57331227728/10154703898572729/?type=3&theater
Nothing says remembrance for a wildland firefighter like a bicycle rack, especially one with not just one, but two FIREMAN’S axes on it, not a wildland firefighters Pulaski…a fireman’s ax. Unless of course it is Jack Links Beef Jerky!
I knew you would catch that. It’s also not the only “commemorative” chachki I’ve seen that just uses STRUCTURAL FF branding and logos. I’ve seen more than one “commemorative” patch and/or ball cap doing the same thing.
Observer, you have that statement right. Plenty of vets and fire fighters that deserve recognition but they picked a guy that held back evidence and still does from the get go. It is because people are buffaloed by the cover up and believe a lie if told by certain officials in cronieville.
Well said WTKTT. Since I know Ted personally and converse with him regularly I can vouch for his integrity.
It would be interesting to hear more of Mr. Stouts views and his position on what and why GMHS did drop off the two track into the basin.
https://youtu.be/GiRhG8x7u7o
10:37
John Dougherty since you were there- who is the man asking the back burn question-
at 9:08 who is that man?
http://www.investigativemedia.com/forestry-official-admits-making-comments-to-investigativemedia/
I met Jim Paxon the other day-
He was talking to someone and I went up to him and shook my hands-
it is nice to meet people you chat on phone with and finally see them-
https://youtu.be/qSaQ8A9UeWk
2:17- I stand by what I said in the start-
**
** NEW ARTICLE JUST PUBLISHED BY INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA
** REGARDING TOMORROW’S ‘STAFF RIDE’ ( AND OTHER THINGS )
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article title: Wildfire expert alleges state coverup on eve of hotshot families’ Yarnell field trip
Published: April 4, 2016 By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/
All I know is if Putnam says he has the info he has it he would not put his name on any fabrication of evidence.
thank you Bob Powers- I one hundred percent agree with Bob Powers.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 4, 2016 at 8:54 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> All I know is if Putnam says he has the info he has it he would
>> not put his name on any fabrication of evidence.
Pretty much like Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini… when he finally revealed what Brendan McDonough had been saying to others.
There is absolutely no real reason to believe a person of a certain reputation would put both himself AND his ‘reputation’ on the line… and agree to let his statements be made public… unless someone like that is *most likely* ‘tellng the truth’.
By the way… it eventually WAS proven that Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini was NOT ‘making anything up’. It was the TRUTH. I believe the same thing will eventually happen with regards to Ted Putnam ( and others ). It’s just going to take a little more time.
That being said… I certainly hope all the commentary about the recent article isn’t ONLY going to be about Dr. Ted Putnam.
There’s a LOT more in that recent article to ‘talk about’ than just what Dr. Ted Putnam had to say.
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney is the one who REQUESTED the chance to comment on the article before it was published… and then he ‘chickens out’ just before it started.
What is UP with THAT?
I don’t think Jeff Whitney is an attorney but Joy R. is. I think these men near the top or on the top are afraid of the truth. The least they say the better. You see how quickly Joy terminated the interview.
http://youtu.be/qdcttYOCJEQ
still very odd to me…so many prior GMHS…never publicly spoke up yet..
???
http://youtu.be/aKT6TnRPMy4
this is the man who had some good solid videos on youtube:
https://plus.google.com/110724344305143712029/posts
funny that these men can pose for a photo but ODD none of them are in SAIR or ever talk publicly?
hmm…
https://plus.google.com/photos/110724344305143712029/albums/6038372134406111633/6038372137813459330?sqi=112727709127542996420&sqsi=5b593a30-4523-42d7-a892-d9f2e6ab9882&pid=6038372137813459330&oid=110724344305143712029
hmm..you got a yarnell pic like this and you were on the fire and not in SAIR????
https://plus.google.com/110724344305143712029/posts?pid=5933276874263677474&oid=110724344305143712029
especially when photo was taken when the men died and no one interviews him????
hmmmm.
Date taken 6/30/13, 4:46 PM
Dimensions 2048 x 1536
File name 070.JPG
File size 258.73K
Camera Canon PowerShot A2000 IS
Lens –
Focal Length 18.502mm
Exposure 1/200
F Number f/4.5
ISO 80
Camera make Canon
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Views 115
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wildfire-expert-alleges-state-coverup-on-eve-of-hotshot-families-yarnell-field-trip/
Thanks Joy,
From the article:
“Putnam was provided a copy of the facilitator guide that will be used during the staff ride by InvestigativeMEDIA, which obtained it from the Forestry Division through a request under the Arizona Public Records Law.
Putnam says he has direct information from multiple firefighter sources who were at the fire in conjunction with evidence contained in investigation reports that leave no doubt in his mind that Arizona Forestry Division fire supervisors ordered Granite Mountain to come off the mountain and go to Yarnell.
“I’ve been in this business longer and know more about this than anybody out there and this all this screams at me they were ordered off the top (of the mountain)” Putnam says.
I say they were ordered off the mountain to assist with the evacuation in Yarnell and help protect structures…because that’s what structural fire departments do. The hybrid hotshot crew. Willis explained a lot in his ‘press conference’ at the deployment site. Ordered, pressured, coerced. There you have it.
Woodsman
These are “allegations” that Mr. Putnam has made. Without providing one single shred of evidence to support them. (At least not yet, that is.)
But THAT appears to be something that does not matter at all to a few participants of this YHF discussion. Allegations are “all” that’s needed in order for them to say, “There you have it.” And promptly arrive at a judgment. Or, for some, to even leap into the Sentencing phase with a call for heads to roll.
It seems that, in spite of the seriousness of this matter, they don’t see any need for testimony that was given under oath … with the benefit of cross-examination, or any kind of opportunity for an examination of the evidence submitted before they are able to rush to announce their guilty verdict.
In the early chapters of this discussion, I can recall the suggestion being made (more than once) that sometimes a person needs to stand back … take a few minutes … take a deep breath …
Looks to me like that is some good advice that could apply today.
J Stout,
The most experienced, qualified and respected wildland fatality investigator in the entire country said it, not some armchair quarterback. So, there it is.
Sentencing? Who’s doing that? Testimony under oath? Cross-examination? Great idea! I’d settle for interrogatories as a start. Don’t jump ahead. There’s a process.
If nobody did anything wrong then you shouldn’t have anything to worry about, right? OK then. Take a deep breath.
Woodsman
I agree with Woodsman one hundred percent. Out of all the people we hiked this man Dr. Ted Putnam is pure. I just would like to hear from Dr. Ted Putnam because last I knew he was not involved with YHF and focused to Mann Gulch- how and when did it shift?
Continuing to make the argument that you don’t need to wait for any evidence or any proof which supports the allegations being made tells me all I need to know.
if a man says under oath he would tell the truth- I do believe him. He has been straight forward to me. Yes, he is a man you can trust that if he has a source than he does but now I also agree with J. Stout and what I was saying on other page if I brought John MacLean and Holly Neill to the foreground on Gabbert article than same goes for here…
The evidence is and has been right there in front of those who wish to see it. Your reaction to the article tells me all I need to know as well.
I don’t endeavor to battle it out with you but I’ve been battling since I’ve been here those who claim that no one whatsoever had anything to do with GM’s decision to leave the safety of the black and head down to Yarnell but Marsh and/or Steed. I believe that was NOT the case and when the foremost wildland fatality investigator in the entire US of A says he has “direct information from multiple firefighter sources who were at the fire in conjunction with evidence contained in investigation reports that leave no doubt in his mind that Arizona Forestry Division fire supervisors ordered Granite Mountain to come off the mountain and go to Yarnell”…well, that’s just doggone intriguing.
Tell me, which is more disturbing to you, Dr. Putnam’s statement or the possibility that it’s 100% truth?
Woodsman
While I will wait to see more info from Dr. Ted Putnam As we have discussed before there is and has been that possibility of a plan by some one that brought GM off the Mountain.
The final order was from Marsh and Steed still had the option to move safely. Marsh had the responsibility to make sure the crew moved safely.
No Matter if the IC ordered them or ask them to come to Yarnell they had the responsibility to move safely or refuse to move.
Marsh and Steed are still responsible for the Safety of the Crew and for every thing the crew dose.
I will wait for a name to attach to Dr. Ted Putnam’s information. like I have said before we know what happened the rest is just additional information to add to the story.
Woodsman, that could not be better said. Thanks.
J, Stout?
is that you Janice?
I had to go remember where I saw STOUT besides Sonny’s Guiness-
and I remembered your excellent comment:
Janice Stout says
October 13, 2013 at 10:49 am
Now that it is October and the Yarnell Hill Fire Investigative Report has come out, and it did exactly what many had predicted it would do by ultimately finding “no indication of negligence, reckless actions or violations of policy or protocol” — still, I would be interested in learning what your reactions are to the many aspects of this document.
I am really uneasy with the way this report seems to (and correct me if I am wrong here) promote a trend in firefighting that is away from the Ten Standard Firefighting Orders and the Eighteen Watchout Situations (as if it’s just ‘Old School’ material now) while promoting what appears to be more of a ‘New School’ of guidelines, such as the emphasis on a crew’s “culture of engagement” and other matters.
Feel reasonably sure you probably have many thoughts on what this report had to say (and what it didn’t have to say) as well as what changes may come about as a result of it. And am hoping that the late date in posting this comment (inquiry) is not so late that you are unable to reply.
http://www.redbluffdailynews.com/opinion/20140920/janice-stout-jefferson-state-rhetoric-doesnt-add-up
So J. Stout brings up a good point-
The article states from the highest qualified man to talk fire yet the article does not show the evidence and if I gave John and Holly saying resource/source…I should be doing the same to Ted but thing is I am too one of the people who has heard stuff in confidentiality and just hope the people speak up and for that reason I stand here hoping that happens from this article-
When the truth about 19 wild land fire fighter deaths is at stake and closure for people who are related to the deceased, and even more importantly the significance of what went wrong when future lives are at stake–How can anyone hold back this evidence. We must reveal what evidence there is, witness reports, etc. We owe the truth to the loved ones, the tax payer that foots the bill, and most of all to the lives of future wild land fire fighters.
When Dr. Ted Putnam came forward, I know he has spent the past three years in almost complete silence on the Yarnell affair because he was biding his time in collecting evidence. He did not make that statement on a whim and with the reputation that he has in wild land fire fighting death investigations, he is not about to risk damage to that reputation by making statements he can not back. He is not one to be bullied or bought off. He will stand for the truth–his goal is looking to make wild land fire fighting a safer job and save future lives. What more honorable work can there be than that of finding the truth and revealing it.
also since we are talking with J. Stout here-
this question came up long ago and no one ever answered it so bringing it here again-
J. Stout says
October 17, 2013 at 10:03 pm
Is there anyone who can answer this question for me: Back when the Prescott FD fuels crew (with Eric Marsh as foreman) first attained certification as a hotshot crew, how was Marsh able to automatically be appointed as a Hotshot Superintendent? In firefighting, don’t the positions of “Superintendent” of this particular type of crew have Minimum Qualifications which specify a certain amount, and a particular type, of previous experience on a hotshot crew (in order for a candidate to be eligible and qualified for one of those positions)? How does a person just sort of leap frog into something like that?
I am “J. Stout” and that is a highly inappropriate inquiry which was made regarding my first initial.
Equally inappropriate was the follow-up with an aggressive and very public investigative pursuit of possibilities for determining my full name, as well as other pertinent information that might identify me.
Consequently, this will conclude my participation in this YHF discussion.
Hit a nerve there. We are all here to discuss what we here and what we know. If you do not want to be known don’t use your name or initials. pick a handle.
In appropriate by dome’s perception but I am always going to call to the front I’d names that ring bells to old comments on here. Maybe Janice Stout was too vulnerable early on with light inquiries but when you put alleged and words you are in regards to Dr Ted Putnam I am a very strong supporter of him and John Dougherty and the only 2 humans that know stuff on yhf that others don’t. I am now going to add that on the first anniversary memorial here in Yarnell CYFD spoke amongst themselves down the street of Shrine about to do bag pipe performance and they had no idea I was near and they have something definate to share about last hours of yhf yet they never were interviewed. I have that human right to go jog my STOUT memory and ask you are you the same person who came to IM early on as Janice? If you are not that person than you could care less I asked so seems to me you are…if so be proud of your name and wanting to reach clarity. See Sonny thinks you are a man and I said nope sounds like Janice long ago so all you were doing if you answered yes or no is help Sonny from saying MR Stout
Inappropriate by some not dome
Ted Putnam finally got off the Mann Gulch investigation to comment on the Yarnell Fire. John gave us a good article about the staff ride and how they failed to indicate how the GMHS crew broke every rule in the book and what really led to their demise. Ted does not make a statement unless he has the evidence to back it up.
It will be interesting to know what Joy Hernbrode knows about investigating fire fatalities. She is attempting to dispute Ted’s statements while Whitney would not go on camera to dispute Ted.
So the extension goes beyond Marsh and Steed now. That had to be obvious and we see the pecking order has too much to say with the big peckers at the top.
Does not matter. Too many of the old timers that have done these jobs until retirement, for instance Norb of the Tahoe Fire Department who ran two wild land fire fighting crews along with his other fire fighting and plenty others of his qualifications informed this old cowboy, miner that to drop one of his wild land crews off in that basin would never happen with him. In my very limited experience of fire fighting I have to believe him, Ted Putnam, Wayne Niel, and others that we have hiked that have seen the situation first hand. The state does well to restrict these types of individuals from the area–since they immediately see the error in what was done that day. Ted is correct in saying it is an error to deny the truth of the Yarnell situation. It should be a learning situation that would save lives. But instead make it look like a walk in the Black Forest–beautiful view.
Woodsman said, “I agree with what you said, Super Rooster Powers. You damn right if a seasoned wff could see what was happening with a crew in a bowl full of brush with the outflow winds pushing the fire, with that fire behavior showing itself – it would have been freakin’ pucker time. I propose they had seconds to react and not minutes based on the missing gloves, chainsaws in proximity, rolled up sleeves, fuel containers and hastily deployed fire shelters at the fatality site. By the time they knew they were going to die, it was too late to do much of anything about it. (RIP, GMIHC)”
I read this a little different than you do. I lean towards the option the crew did have minutes, I think it has been estimated over time here by WTKTT that they had many minutes (10? Maybe a few more?) but this is where another critical human factor came into play.
I believe the crew perceived the threat to them advancing at a much slower pace than it really was based on their linear thinking, whereas, the truth was, the threat was growing exponentially and they just couldn’t grasp just how bad it was because of their linear thinking at first, and the they were drifting into condition black from condition red (where they were already experiencing tunnel vision and auditory exclusion) to where their minds could not grasp and analyze the critically growing threat and new information until the last few seconds and then it was too late to ditch the chain saws, put on their gloves and even get under the shelters for many of them.
I believe Dr. Putnam briefly wrote about this human frailty in one of his articles…I think it was “Up in Smoke”, I will have to look it up again. The inability some humans have some of the time (or maybe most of the time) to perceive just how bad things are because of our linear thinking.
Although I am still having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that if they really did have that much time, time enough for Marsh to run back to them, why they didn’t run for the ranch rather than attempt to prep a deployment site that was way too small as we have said, except for the “coffee can syndrome” that was also discussed earlier.
No, it wasn’t “Up In Smoke” it was in an article about Dr. Putnam’s work specially on human factors that is going to take me longer to look up because I am having computer issues right now.
Reply to Gary Olson post on April 4, 2016 at 12:54 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I read this a little different than you do. I lean towards the option
>> the crew did have minutes, I think it has been estimated over time
>> here by WTKTT that they had many minutes (10? Maybe a few more?)
>> but this is where another critical human factor came into play.
The entire (final) radio exchange with Granite Mountain… from the moment Jesse Steed pressed his transmit button and announced “We are in front of the flaming front”… until the moment Eric Marsh released his transmit button after saying his final ( known ) word of “Affirm” in response to Burfiend asking “So… you’re on the south side of the fire, then?”…
…was 2 minutes and 22 seconds.
But since it’s been confirmed that what the SAIT thought was ‘static’ on Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY call was, in fact, just the sound of at least TWO chainsaws already running full blast right there near Jesse… then we KNOW that all of the following things had to have taken place before Jesse would be pushing his ‘transmit’ button at 1639 to make that first MAYDAY call…
1. The ‘moment of realization’ that they were in deep shit.
2. The START of the emergency decision making process, including the time it
must have now taken for all 19 men to ‘pull up’ from a long ‘single file’ line to
an ‘assembled group’.
3. The emergency decision making process… including how long they even considered ( or even explored ) ALL of their options.
4. The END of the emergency decision making process… with the decision and the commitment to ‘deploy’.
5. The SEARCH for the best place to deploy.
6. The assembly of all the men in that chosen place. ( There might have been others out looking in other places before someone found that actual clearing they ended up using ).
7. The ‘organization’ of the efforts at the now-chosen deployment site.
8. Pulling ropes on chainsaws and ‘getting to work’ improving the site.
So ‘task 8’ takes up right up to the moment when Jesse first decided ( or was finally TOLD… by Marsh either in-person or over crew-net? ) to CALL AIR ATTACK.
The chainsaws were already running when he finally made that first MAYDAY call.
So other than the known 2 minutes and 22 seconds going right up to Marsh’s final “Affirm”… how much time are we looking at to get to ‘task 8’ in the list above?
My own ‘guess’ there has always been a minimum of about 5 minutes… possibly up to 8 minutes ( or more? How many minutes passed before they even found the site out there? ).
So let’s say it was 8 minutes.
Then yes… adding the known 2 minutes and 22 seconds to that ‘educated guess’… we are now in the 10+ minute range from ‘Moment of realization’ to Marsh’s final word and it was time for even HIM to ‘jump into his shelter’.
They were only 640 yards away from the western perimeter of the Boulder Springs Ranch… yet they *might* have actually WASTED 10 full minutes “looking for the coffee can”… instead of actually trying to (actually) save themselves.
Followup…
I do see Woodsman’s point up above, though.
There DID, in fact, come a moment when they were just simply ‘out of time’ and had to cease all ‘improvement’ activity and just use the last few SECONDS to try and get into their shelters.
The best proof of that is the WAY they actually deployed.
They ended up deploying in sort of a Horseshoe / “U” shape… with essentially TWO groups separated from each other, and a ‘space’ of 10-12 feet between the ‘two groups’.
See the diagram on PDF page 94 of the SAIR document.
According to satellite imagery taken just 62 days before they were going to deploy in that exact location… there was a little ‘island of vegetation’ in the clearing which they, apparently, ran out of time to ‘clear away’ and they eventually had to just deploy, as best they could, AROUND this little island of unburned vegetation.
There were even some 4-5 foot ‘scrub oaks’ in that ‘island’… and 3 of the firefighters basically ended up sort of deploying almost UNDERNEATH one of those ‘trees’.
According to SAIT investigator Gonzalez’s own deployment site photos… the 4-5 foot burned trunk of one of those ‘scrub oaks’ actually marks one of the corners used by the SAIT to come up with the measured 24 foot by 30 foot ‘square’ that contained ALL of the bodies/shelters.
Three of the ‘chainsaws’ were found off by themselves and away from the majority of where the bodies were found.
They were all sort of ‘in a line’ that parallel to what is now known to be the ‘windward’ side of the deployment area and on the outer edge of it, where the fireline was approaching from.
But ONE of the chainsaws ( Dustin Deford’s ) was found right there in the middle of one of the deployment groups, and right next to Deford.
So it’s possible that Dustin Deford might have been given the task of trying to clear that little ‘island’ of vegetation out of the deployment area, while the other 3 ‘sawyers’ went to work on trying to ‘expand’ the perimeter.
But even Deford might have simply ‘run out of time’… and didn’t near ‘finish’ that task of clearing that little ‘island’… so when it came time to actually ‘deploy’… the men had no choice but to sort of lay down as best they could AROUND that still present little ‘island of vegetation’.
And hence… the final Horseshoe / “U” shape of the actual deployment and that ‘gap’ between those ‘two deployment groups’.
From PDF page 100 of the SAIR…
——————————————————————————
Dustin DeFord, Granite Mountain #15
1. Shelter Condition:
a. Outer Shell: 100% of foil burned away; silica cloth is brittle in some areas.
b. Inner Shell: 90% of foil burned away; 85% of fiberglass burned away.
c. Floor: 15% of foil burned away; silica cloth is brittle in some areas.
d. Seams: End cap seam separated. Floor seam had a 48-inch separation.
2. PPE Items:
a. Clothing: Shirt was mostly intact except for the area of the upper back that was charred and burned away. Much of the back side of the pants was charred and burned away. The front areas of the pants remain mostly intact.
b. Gloves: Both gloves appeared shrunk 10%.
c. Helmet: Most of the helmet was melted.
d. Chainsaw chaps: Edges of the nylon chap shell, nylon webbing and 1-inch buckles were melted. Kevlar pads remained mostly intact.
3. Body position: The firefighter was lying prone with feet towards the northeast.
4. Shelter Use – The firefighter was fully deployed inside the shelter. The burned remnants of a chain saw were next to the right side of the firefighter.
——————————————————————————-
NOTE: “The burned remnants of a chain saw were next to the right side of the firefighter.”
This has since been confirmed in the YCSO photographs of the site taken shortly after all the bodies had been removed. Deford’s chainsaw was COMPLETELY MELTED, with only the saw bar and other metal parts still recognizable.
So… in the end… Dustin Deford didn’t even have time to THROW his saw.
He just had to DROP IT… get in his shelter ASAP… and lay down right next to the saw… gas tank and all.
Thank you for that run down and reminder and yes, I agree with Woodsman as well. Once that 10 plus minutes was gone, they only had seconds to before the end and they clearly ran out of time. Nobody would lay down next to a chainsaw full of gasoline in a firestorm unless they were out of time.
Thanks Gary & WTKTT,
I’ve been thinking about something else. If the fire proceeded around the ridge and blew up the box canyon headed straight at the majority of GM, who announced they were in front of the flaming front…how would Marsh be able to make it to them if he was below their position & close to the boulder springs ranch? He couldn’t pass through that flame front. If he was behind the crew and at a higher elevation, he would have seen first hand the fire’s change of direction putting the crew in danger. The best explanation, to me right now, is for Marsh being able to re- join the crew and not to be able to see the fire’s change in direction, would be for him to be on the 2-track headed to the boulder springs ranch..maybe almost to the boulder springs ranch. Of course, if I am explaining my thought clearly at all, it would mean that Marsh took a different path to the boulder springs ranch the the crew either on purpose or by mistake/miscommunication.
I still believe he was below the crew and closer to the ranch and not above them when the mayday call went out but he couldn’t run through the flame front eating that box canyon. So…………….
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Here is my post from earlier in the week, I totally agree that Marsh would have been on the wrong side of the flaming front.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-331029
Norb,
Maybe what you said got me to think about it. You have hiked it so you would see the possibility of that scenario at the actual site.. Thanks!
Woodsman
I have been thinking about it since you brought it up a few days ago…and I think it is more likely you are right than you are wrong.
Marsh would have literally been chased up that draw by the fire and it never has made any sense that if he could go to them from the ranch, why couldn’t they go to him in about the same amount of time?
Good point.
There was absolutely no way you could get through that brush for 645 yards in 10 minutes WTKTT even with two chain saws ahead of you. It just is not possible. Sadly they were only about 70 yards from the boulder field that was clear of vegetation for about the size of a foot ball field where even there they might have been hot and smokey but should have survived and definitely those that ducked under boulder piles.
We need to ask our selves some research questions.
On the 30th the GM Hotshots reached the heel of the Fire around 0930.
On Squad was assigned to tie into the heel of the fire and back to the line the rest of the crew started, McDonough was with that Squad.
The rest of the crew went to building line and started some burn out around 1030.
That was dropped on by air attack and they went back to direct attack moving back towards the Old Grader and the way they came up.
Some time between 1200 and 1300 March/Steed sent McDonough over to a look out area.
McDonough says no one to that point had gone to the canyon to open a trail to the Ranch.
McDonough also stated the entire crew was briefed on Safety Zones and Escape routes
The first SZ was the BLACK.
The second SZ was to the ranch using the two track.
So at roughly at 1300 that was their SZ Plan.
They were in fact not looking at any condition that would change that plan and had their vehicles in a location That they were working back to. There was no visible threat of the Fire or they would have sent drivers to move their vehicles at 1300.
The fire was slowly moving towards the Look Out until 1515 and the Look Out moved to the Tractor push and was picked up around 1530 and went to move vehicles.
I would say about that time was when a decision was made to pull up in the black and evaluate the situation.
Marsh decided to scout ahead to see if they could move to the Ranch.
In this time period I do not believe any one was sent to cut a escape route there was no reason to consider going to the Ranch (BSR) until 1530 when the decision was made to move the Vehicles.
So with a little research or WTKTT with his vast info at hand we should be able to set some time lines on the above. We also know that JOY and SONNY were in the area from roughly 1000 to 1400.
So when would the 2 hours to build a trail have taken place?
After 1400 why would a saw crew by 1600 and at the BSR turn and go back to meet the crew?
The Crew was getting ready to come to them. So it would have been earlier than 1400.
Joy and Sonny were in the area from 1000 to 1400 Estimated. They saw no saw work or saw or herd any crew in the canyon.
That leaves prior to 1000 the crew was barely on the line prior to then.
So we have a huge discrepancy in when this assumed Trail in the Canyon could have possibly been built.
Why would they even need to build it with their vehicles in the opposite direction?
Until 1500 there was no threat to their vehicles.
Lets work on the Facts first to see where they lead.
Wasn’t the crew carriers sent to the br guys, with their dozer line, to when completed, tie in with the gm crew
The BR Crew picked them up around 3:45–1545 Their crew carriers were all parked to gather. When Frizby dropped McDonough off at the parking area and shuttled guys to drive them out. Moving his to pick up the rest of the BR crew.
Down Below they could have parked at the BSR and hiked up They did not for some reason. The crew carriers were just off the tractor push in a cleared area near the road they drove in on. I believe the walked up the Tractor push and then south to the heel of the fire.
If they were cutting line down that 60 degree slope and in that basin they had to be the dumbest crew in firefighting history. No way, I think. But every action they did that day was a waste of time, then it turned deadly once they got themselves out of sight of the fire. None of that makes sense about cutting line but it is certainly possible that brush was cut to get to the ranch.
Now the other alternative would be that some sawyers were working off the ranch trying to get to the men from another outfit–but had to turn back since they would see the blaze coming their way from the ranch. You indeed would need a sawyer from there to clear a trail to them. So much redaction, keep your mouth shut or risk being demoded or fired, and too much deception to make loved ones believe Marsh and bosses were heroes. The loved ones rather have the truth than versions trying to make heroes out of bosses that make Bozo the Clown look smart on this job. How do you learn how to improve a system that is killing wild land fire fighters by saying that is what they do protect structures, they just could not stay safe, but instead had to break every safety rule in the book and attempt a suicide run to save those houses. With the wild fire of that day they had to know any effort to do that would be futile.
Perhaps Marsh commandeered a chain saw from someone and had cut some to get his way back to the men. But did he even know how to use one?
I mean. Seriously. Why didn’t they park the gm crew carriers and trucks at the ranch house(sz?). Was McDonough that important to being to the shrine area?
GM and BR crew carriers were all parked to gather in a clearing.
I would have to go back and look but I think that the Carriers could be seen from GM rest area.
McDonough was closer to them than he was to the crew.
Bob Powers says
Reply to April 3, 2016 at 2:57 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> GM and BR crew carriers were all parked to gather in a clearing.
>>
>> I would have to go back and look but I think that the Carriers
>> could be seen from GM rest area.
That’s correct. They are even ‘visible’ in some of the final photos taken at that ‘final rest’ spot location. Small ‘white objects’ in the distance, right where they were supposed to be.
In Christopher MacKenzie’s sequence of iPhone and Canon photos, and even in his 2 video clips… we can also actually SEE the moment when Brian Frisby returned ( now with Trueheart Brown in the UTV Polaris Ranger ) to where he had dropped Brendan off by the GM Supt and Chase trucks… so that they could now drive the GM Supt and Chase trucks down south to the clearing where the GM Crew Carriers were.
No… we can’t actually SEE Brendan or Frisby or Brown or the BR Polaris Ranger… but what we DO see in the Mackenzie photos is that one moment there are these two ‘white objects’ right there exactly where the GM Supt and Chase trucks were parked… and then in the next time sequence photo… those ‘white objects’ are GONE from there… and there is now a clearly visible ‘dust trail’ being kicked up in the distance.
That ‘dust trail’ was coming from the GM Supt and Chase trucks actually having just left where they had been parked and driving ‘south’ through the Sesame Clearing area down to where the GM Crew Carriers were.
Once they ( Frisby, Brown and Brendan ) arrived there… Brendan stayed in the GM Supt Truck and would be the one driving it out of there with the Crew Carriers… but Trueheart Brown got OUT of the GM Chase truck and then got BACK in the BR Polaris Ranger with Frisby. Brown ‘passed off’ the GM Chase truck to some OTHER Blue Ridge Hotshot ( identity still uknown ), and that OTHER BR Hotshot was then the one who would drive the GM Chase truck out of there, and in that ‘convoy’ of 4 GM vehicles, all the way over to the Youth Camp.
Frisby and Brown, now both back in the UTV Ranger, would then head east on the Cutover trail in the Ranger and meet the GM vehicles as they arrived over at the Youth Camp.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> McDonough was closer to them than he was to the crew.
Not really.
Actually… even ‘as the bird flies’… Brendan’s Lookout Mound was almost TWICE as far away from where the GM Crew Carriers had been parked that morning as he was from the ‘Anchor Point’, where Steed and the Crew were working.
And that’s just ‘as the bird flies’.
If you add up the actual ‘road distance’… he was MORE than twice as far away from the Carriers as he was from Steed and the Crew.
Distance ‘as the bird flies’ from ‘Lookout Mound’ to ‘Anchor Point’…
0.51 mile(s) / 902 yards / 2,705 feet
Distance ‘as the bird flies’ from ‘Lookout Mound’ to where GM Crew Carriers were parked…
0.87 mile(s) / 1,537 yards / 4,611 feet
Thanks for the run down on distance WTKTT,
Hiking time was probably equal up hill clime to crew verses mostly down hill to the trucks. In the mountains no distance is calculated as the crow flies when estimating time of travel. But your calculations will do for location.
On April 3, 2016 at 7:39 am Bob said:
“Right on Sonny My continued question why would Marsh if he could see the fire from any place in the open mouth of the Canyon to BSR let his men still come down that Shute to the BSR. What the fire was doing by 1630
If seen would have scared a well seasoned FF that was in a canyon full of brush.
Marsh and Crew could not see what the Fire was doing at any time in the Canyon or they would have got the hell out of there.”
I agree with what you said, Super Rooster Powers. You damn right if a seasoned wff could see what was happening with a crew in a bowl full of brush with the outflow winds pushing the fire, with that fire behavior showing itself – it would have been freakin’ pucker time. I propose they had seconds to react and not minutes based on the missing gloves, chainsaws in proximity, rolled up sleeves, fuel containers and hastily deployed fire shelters at the fatality site. By the time they knew they were going to die, it was too late to do much of anything about it. (RIP, GMIHC)
Granite Mountain was an ill conceived idea that was part and parcel of a flawed system of an inbred and hybrid wildland firefighting system created to save money and feed the structural firefighters bias for action, saving boxes of 2×4’s and plywood, money and prestige. The idea was created, implemented, expanded, and unfortunately carried to it’s inevitable logical conclusion. MY problem is that the deeply flawed system is not being addressed and corrected as a result of the tragedy at Yarnell Hill. On the contrary, it’s being run the same way it was before and very few see anything wrong with it. People who were raised in the USFS apparently still think it’s a good idea and participate in it as well.
You can see what I’m talking about in the helmet cam video when Capt True Brown is heard saying something to the effect that ‘he is trying to keep firefighters from killing themselves, GOD DAMN!!!’ He is referring to those from an Arizona ‘Wildfire Response Team’ in peril and he’s trying to tell them to get the hell out of the way of the fire because they’re too stupid, inexperienced and/or arrogant to understand the situation.
The structural fire service has infiltrated the wildland world. The irreconcilable differences between the 2 is a watch-out situation unto itself. We saw the results in a massive way of this hybridization and inbreeding in Arizona. As evidence, I give you the Central Arizona Wildfire Response Team. This is one of several across the state of Arizona. When I first heard of such an organization, my first reaction was yep, I bet they sign their own task books and have their own red card approval process for position qualification. I was right about that and much, much more:
Meeting minutes from April 11. 2012 CAWRT:
“Red Card Committee – Al DiBenedetto talked about the red card committee and how they are running into task books that need more information. When filling out your training logs, make sure you write legibly. Make sure you have all the classes, fire experience and hours that are required. The more information you have to turn in with your trainee book the better.”
So this group of structural fire fighters comprising many fire departments across Arizona is deciding who is qualified for what position on a wildfire. That’s why you have the likes of Cordes and Willis in major supervisory line positions while lacking the true pedigree to do so. This is in total contradiction to the way it is done in the USFS, other federal agencies, and state forestry agencies (who, as Gary pointed out, are ‘mini-me’s’ of the USFS.)
Here is link to the home page of the ‘wildfire response team’ that was involved at Yarnell Hill:
http://www.cawrt.webs.com/
This inbred/hybridization model is a major contributing factor to the deaths of GMIHC. The infiltration of structural firefighters into the wildfire realm is a mistake and until the truth of the matter is acknowledged and corrected, there will continue to be injuries and fatalities on wildfires in this country.
These ‘Wildfire Response Teams’ have also maneuvered their way into having access themselves to the national wildfire dispatch system: ROSS. So you see: they can train themselves, initiate and sign off on their own task books, determine position qualifications, and have a seat at the table of national dispatch. There are a multitude of reasons this is all a very bad idea. It’s how you end up with unqualified people on firelines across the country. It’s how you end up with a Structure Protection Group Supervisor who really is not one or a DIVS who does not possess the requisite skills or experience to be one. A seriously flawed system indeed. I’ll call it an example of the fox watching the hen house.
For those who preach that GM blindly ‘followed orders’ to their own death because of military service – you’re wrong. A hotshot follows the commands of their crew boss or they must find another job. A hotshot also trusts that their crew boss is competent, qualified, and experienced in true wildland fire so that they will not put their crew in harms way. That’s how it works.
Those who apologize for this flawed system or assist in its continuation and expansion are part of the problem. Until we are honest about it and fix what should have never been, firefighters will continue to die.
Woodsman
The GMHS had a better view from the black and could see the fire was totally out of hand about 11 am. They must have gotten to the two track where Marsh marked to go down about 4PM. So their view of the fire was good up until they went down. From where they went down they could not see the side of the north ridge of the basin. Down in there was very thick brush although the north ridge top and toward the lower end of the ridge is full of boulders and very little vegetation. It would have been even a larger area than the south ridge that was boulders devoid or just about devoid of vegetation. So indeed once they did drop off there was no way to see what the north side canyon was doing. We came up early that day through there when the fire was still on top in the boulders. You certainly knew that once the fire got down the mountain you did not want to be caught in those low canyons on the east side dense manzanita. So by 11am that crew was watching the fireworks and all the way to the drop off point. The question is what exact time did the wind change? Marsh had scouted that area coming up so he knew the denseness down there on both sides of the north ridge and below the ridge to the east as well. I do think the men were at first paralleling the fire at that time or at least going almost parallel on the ridge and must have known that fact since they had a view. Seems they went almost perpendicular down the slope then angled off to the BSR with their fingers crossed hoping the wind did not make a sudden updraft up the basin. The basin itself would funnel the fire and turn it even if the wind was going south. So Marsh and his risk taking killed his men. Some time before the men I told Joy that if that wind changed we would have a hell of a time outrunning it even at that time where we were on that two track and they went toward the fire not away from it. We had to get to the top of the Weavers pronto since I also knew we could get out of the brush in a hurry on the opposite side. Reason I went back for Joy–I might have had a murder charge myself since she was depleted and had other plans that would have caught her. Here the east side of the mountain is dense in vegetation, while the west has patches but is generally reasonably bare but it is a steep climb up a ways to get there. There are places that retardant was dropped and places where no retardant was dropped and the fire burned itself out shortly off the hill. Gary has it right–Marsh was playing Russian roulette with three bullets on that particular action. People want to paint him as a hero but the real facts show otherwise. He knew the terrain by his scouting yet took a wild chance on his men’s lives–what he was trying to prove we do not know. I still think he strictly took orders from above just as he expected his men to strictly take his own orders. I understand Steed almost did not but went ahead with the risk–he had to be looking at the fire that Marsh had already known was out of hand, yet from the basin he would not have seen how quickly it was headed their way. This one was the blind leading the blind.
About the hybrid fire fighter. Seems that those fellows would do good if they could get to a lightening strike in a hurry and get it contained. But once the main fire fight is on they would do better in the structure department. Seems wild land firefighting ought to be a special game. Still I would guess that a few good men could do both efficiently.
Looking at some of the young men now here in Yarnell they look healthy enough to get up and get a lightning strike out in a hurry. I hope so anyway because the brush is already back and will increase in density in a few years to where another wild fire is possible. Question is will they do it? Maybe if they have homes here they will.
USFS Southwest Region August 29, 2013 letter to all Forest Supervisors regarding: ‘Guidance and Resource Information on Documentation Related to the Yarnell Hill
Fire’
“File Code: 5100/6270/1570
Route To: LEFT BLANK
Date: August 29, 2013
Subject: Guidance and Resource Information on Documentation Related to the Yarnell Hill Fire
To: Forest Supervisors
The loss of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots is still very much in our hearts and minds. Since this tragedy, some Forest Service employees have been contacted by various sources requesting information and documentation related to the Yarnell Hill fire. It is important to note that the Yarnell Hill fire occurred primarily on Arizona state land and the Arizona State Forestry Division is the lead agency. Additionally, a Serious Accident Investigation Team (SAIT) is actively conducting an accident review of the Yarnell Hill fire.
I want to take this opportunity to share some guidance and resources that I hope will be useful. Please remind your personnel that for all requests, there are specific procedures to follow prior to the release of information. All responses to requests for information, particularly in light of the ongoing investigation, must follow the procedures outlined below.
Media Requests:
• No employee is obligated to speak to the media and no employee should speak to the media in an official capacity without prior authorization.
• If an employee receives a request from news media, they should contact their forest
Public Affairs Officer (PAO) to determine how the USFS will respond, whether it should
be considered a FOIA request, and/or whether it could impede ongoing investigations.
• For more detailed questions regarding media inquiries – contact Karen Carter at 505-842-3290 or [email protected]
Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) Requests
• If an employee receives a verbal request for agency records related to the Yamell Hill
fire, the employee should indicate that such a request should be submitted in writing for processing as a FOIA request. Due to the ongoing investigation and sensitive nature of many records a written request ensures proper processing and response to any such
request.
• All written requests for documents, maps, audio recordings, etc., must be provided to the Forest’s FOIA Coordinator and may be reviewed by the Regional FOIA specialist.
• For more detailed questions regarding FOIA requests – contact Raquel Cantu at 505-842-3121 or raquelcantu@fs. fed.us
Forest Supervisors page 2
Subpoenas:
• An employee has rights as to whether and how to respond to a subpoena and counsel is available to provide guidance.
• If an employee receives a subpoena – they must advise their supervisor and contact Rita Skinner, Regional Litigation Coordinator, at 505-842-3219 or [email protected]
• A subpoena requesting documents is treated as a FOIA and the FOIA coordinator must be involved.
lnvestigation Requests for Interviews:
• An employee has rights as to whether and how to respond to requests for an interview and counsel is available to provide guidance.
• If an employee is requested to provide a statement or interview to assist in an official
investigation of the Yamell Hill fire they should advise their supervisor and contact the
USDA Office of General Counsel, Steve Hattenbach at 505-248-6020 or
[email protected]. gov.
In closing, I want to acknowledge that a tragedy such as this can be difficult for our employees on many levels. The grieving process can take a long time to work through and emotions remain high. This coupled with the uncertainty of litigation and requests from various entities can be overwhelming at times. I want to encourage you to call on the specialists identified above to assist you in navigating through any requests for information.
Additionally, ongoing support to employees is available in the form of Peer Support and Critical Incident Stress Management (CISM) through the Southwest CISM team. To access this support contact the Southwest Coordination Center. Furthermore, should you need other assistance you may contact the Employee Assistance Program (EAP) at 1-800-222-0364 or http://www.foh.dhhs.gov if you feel that you are experiencing any problem which professional counseling might help alleviate. The EAP is strictly confidential and available to you at no cost.
/s/ Gilbert Zepeda (for)
CALVIN N. JOYNER
Regional Forester
Enclosure
cc: pdl 13 fam_FFMO, Raquel Cantu, Karen M Carter, Rita Skinner, Bill VanBruggen, Helen Graham, Steve Hattenbach, Patty Disert
Thus is basically the gist of the alleged ‘gag order’ that never really existed.Still, pretty strong warnings and wording to the USFS employees, which included the BRHS.
Warning from above: PLEASE REMIND ALL YOUR PERSONNEL THAT FOR ALL REQUESTS, THERE ARE SPECIFIC PROCEDURES TO FOLLOW PRIOR TO THE RELEASE OF INFORMATION. ALL RESPONSES TO REQUESTS FOR INFORMATION, PARTICULARLY IN LIGHT OF THE ONGOING INVESTIGATION, MUST FOLLOW THE PROCEDURES OUTLINED BELOW.
One missing element finally forward that we knew…thank you…it helps show one side and we hope that officer shows the gag he got to show other sides than see how come nokne talks…thank you so much because if I posted that than it would be like ???? And those are things people need to see and yeah there are people who want to talk but are currently long term in that system so cannot share
Long sigh…………..Now I am going to have to spend an inordinate amount of time today just to show that although RTS does a working knowledge of the English language he was too institutionalized in the USFS culture in much the same way a convict would be too institutionalized to function at a high level in an open society.
And I did warn him in an email I would have to do this too him if he went ahead and posted this letter.
And Joy…please pay attention when I do so. That is all. I was going to start cleaning my garage right away but noooooooo.
This letter is a smokescreen…not a “gag” order.
1. Although there are specific circumstances where everyone can theoretically be forced to provide information regarding something they have firsthand knowledge of, those instances are limited. If for example, an employee is given a Garrity Warning or immunity from prosecution they can be compelled to answer questions. But in general, no U.S. Citizen has to “talk” so this letter is actually irrelevant.
2. I know that this letter has a sunset time built into it, it is not in effect in perpetuity unless other things happen; I just don’t know what exactly the U.S. Forest Service rules are. And by other things happening, I mean the letter is re-issued for another set period of time. I believe that time period is one year, but some U.S. Forest Service manager would have to answer that one. But if you want to use it as a smokescreen, once again that point is irrelevant, you just wave the letter rather and say simply, “I don’t want to talk to you and this letter says I can’t.” Even state secrets and letters written by the CIA or the President of the United States concerning matters of national security have sunset times built into them.
3. This letter for example, is based on the investigation and the importance of not impeding that investigation. The investigation was completed more than two years ago.
4. This letter addresses how to handle media requests, FOI requests and subpoenas. I don’t fit into any of those categories. I am a retired wildland firefighter who is interested in wildland firefighter safety and I would like to know the circumstances surrounding the deaths of 19 civil servants who happened to work for me and who died while fighting a wildfire where no one should have died if long established procedures had been followed.
5. This letter was not intended to prevent all communication from the Blue Ridge Hotshots for example, to anyone else. I have picked up enough bits and pieces and hints since the YHF to know perfectly well that many people who were on that fire are talking to many other people. They are just being very selective in whom they talk to, but that is based on a lot of things other than this letter…which is okay, they have that right. Take RTS for example, how many times has he hinted that he knows a great deal and that information came from the Blue Ridge Hotshots and nobody has launched an OIG investigation yet and they won’t because that is not what this letter was meant to prevent.
6. Although there is some ambiguity in how we Americans use the word “should”, and in fact we use it incorrectly much of the time, but in this particular case, I think it is safe to assume the Regional Forester knew the difference between the words “should” and “must” when those words were used in their respective contexts.
For example, the letter states in part, “I want to take this opportunity to share some guidance and resources that I hope will be useful. Please remind your personnel that for all requests, there are specific procedures to follow prior to the release of information. All responses to requests for information, particularly in light of the ongoing investigation, MUST follow the procedures outlined below.”
And in another example the letter states in part, “• No employee is obligated to speak to the media and no employee SHOULD speak to the media in an official capacity without prior authorization.” In this example, the word should is clearly being used to mean the most common way we use the word should meaning…”ought to”, not “must.”
6. Furthermore, that same paragraph uses the phrase “official capacity” to describe when and how an employee speaks to the MEDIA. This paragraph is clearly intended to prevent someone from appearing in the media acting in an official capacity and representing and speaking on behalf of the U.S. Forest Service and making official statements. Now…are they happy that employees are either intimidated into not talking to anyone or using this letter as an excuse not to talk to those they don’t want to talk to…yes, they are tickled pink. But none of that makes this a valid “gag” order by any stretch of the imagination, except for the imagination of RTS which apparently knows no boundaries.
That is all…carry on.
Gary,
WTF? I thought you had a pretty good grasp of the English language.
Where do I say that it IS a ‘gag order?’ Where?
Here’s what I posted: “THIS IS BASICALLY THE GIST OF THE ALLEGED ‘GAG ORDER’ THAT NEVER REALLY EXISTED. …
I said ALLEGED. Where TF do I say it actually IS the ‘gag order,’ I don’t at all in any way or fashion nor do I even imply that it is a ‘gag order.’ WTF?
I have never believed there was a ‘gag order,’ and stated that on numerous occasions. I posted only that there were lots of USFS WFF’s that referred to one as such and believed one existed.
You people have been sniveling and whining and wondering about this document for years now, so I finally find it and post it, and WTF, the whining and sniveling continues.
You also posted: “And I did warn him in an email I would have to do this too him if he went ahead and posted this letter.”
Yeah, that’s right, you ad me just shuddering in my boots with your email ‘warning’ …. OMG was I ever scared …
WTF, over?
My mistake…sorry.
I forgive you, but only because you’re a Hot Shot. . You can be SUCH a Richard Cranium at times.
Yes…and a Buckwheat as well.
Thanks for making that clear Gary. If I were an employee of the State Forestry Service I would take the letter as a threat to my job if I talked. What I would to like to have seen was a letter stating something like: If you have any information at all concerning the deaths of the GMHS crew, radio speak, views, photos that might help solve this mysterious death please contact us.
When we tried to offer photos at the Prescott Fire Station we were told that they did not need them–they already knew what happened. They decided after all since Joy had photos of the men that they would take them
Well no wonder people are afraid to talk. They are gagged already and if they say anything their job is as stake. Well thankfully some of the retired people and people not hooked to the Arizona Fire system can have freedom of speech. I don’t see how this is legal in America. With this situation only the Fire Gods have the right to say anything. They will never condemn the sloppy work they did at Yanell– If they tell the truth the tax payer would likely throw the whole bunch out that ran this fire.
How can you change anything if everyone is gagged that works the fire. No wonder they can hand out awards and make a mockery of the truth. Right there is sensitivity–shit the truth is there are 19 dead, how sensitive is that. Get to the truth.
It is really simple Sonny—-
The Above direction letter actually holds your job and carrier over your head.
It is not illegal to talk and give your story but if you get the letter handed to you in a closed door meeting with your Forest FMO and The Forest Supervisor telling you not to talk to any one.
The implied letter and meeting put you on notice you may not lose your job but you will destroy your carrier. They have the power to do that legally.
Firing you is way more complicated.
The whole thing is to protect others from law suits and keep you out of court.
You can and many do File complaints against overhead before any Fatalities.
Once the Fatality happens then your held accountable. If you are a direct connection then you are under investigation. Otherwise stay out of the discussion.
Is it RIGHT no. Is it REAL yes. Your carrier is on the line if you get one of those letters. Make your own decisions based on that knowledge.
And it’s basically what they call a Letter of Direction. And if your supervisor discusses it with you, then you could be disciplined fir Insubordination and/or Failure to Follow Orders if you fail to comply.
And on this same note, suppose you disobeyed Steed and Marsh on the two track–again your job would be in jeopardy (insubordination) –something I would have liked to have seen on that day.
So would you advise them to talk about the fire publicly if they are working for the State Forestry Service? I do believe many do not understand their rights on going public with what they know and whether it might hurt their position in the wild land fire fighting vocation.
An informed reader asked me this question I couldn’t answer, so I thought I would pass it on.
“Even “IF” it was something that did actually take place, since when is cutting a “P-line” in a death trap some kind of meritorious decision that was made? (Seriously, I am looking for someone to explain this to me in case I am being a little unsophisticated about this.)
Why is anybody, anywhere, acting like there is a Gold Star to be awarded to the late Eric Marsh if they can prove it existed? If it really did happen, wasn’t it just another round of playing Russian Roulette with 3 bullets in the chamber?”
Yes, it is like that and that’s basically what I said below. They did this kind of stuff all the time and got away with it. The Rule of 99
This ‘thread’ all ties back to 2 events…
1. RTS reporting that he just recently saw someone doing some kind of ‘presentation’ somewhere about these ‘cut stobs’ found in-between the deployment site… complete with photos… and the ‘presenter’ saying to was (quote) “suggestive evidence”.
2. Holly Neill then coming out of nowhere ( again ) for another ‘drive by shooting’ and, while never confirming that she, herself, might have been this ‘presenter’… she backs it all up anyway by saying that over the course of 15 months… yes… she kept ‘camping out’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch and finding ( incrementally over that YEAR and 3 months ) these ‘cut stobs’ ‘failr near and parallel’ to the deployment site dozer push… but EAST of the deployment site.
RTS complicated things by saying that he also says he heard someone say they heard someone else say ( yes… three persons removed, at least ) that they actually SAW some FFs near the BSR and actually heard chainsaws ‘out there’ at as-yet-unkown mysterious times. I still think this 3rd person removed heresay could have been Thompson’s Sn City Engine stationed at the extreme end of West Way just ‘thinking’ they heard chainsaws coming from the BSR direction… when it was actually just that brief amount of saw work that Blue Ridge was doing out on the ‘Cutover Trail’… but I haven’t had time to elaborate on that. It’s a know fact that Thompson was ‘directionally challenged’ in what little testimony he did give and he had a wrong idea in his head WHERE the BSR really was that day.
But back to the main issue… the ‘stobs’.
Holly Neill is ‘on record’, in an actual email to the absolute HEAD of the ADOSH investigation ( Marshall Krotenberg ) as saying that her PRIME-DIRECTIVE for looking for, and presenting new evidence… was to leave a “more postive legacy for the GMIHS”… and she SIGNED her letter to him as “A FAN of GMIHS”.
It is Holly Neill’s fervent HOPE that evidence can/will be found that proves Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed were being ‘good little hotshots’ at all times that day… and so everyone can just stop wondering if they ever did anything wrong.
I don’t think Holly Neill realizes, to this day, that even things like proving Eric Marsh was out ahead of the crew that day doesn’t automatically make him a ‘good little hotshot’ and/or automatically ‘exonerate’ him. Quite the opposite, really. It’s things like that which end up raising even MORE disturbing questions such as… “Okay… fine… let’s say Eric Marsh made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch and he was just hanging around petting the Llamas there… somehow without the owners ever even seeing him”.
Doesn’t that make for even MORE TOTAL FAILURE?
I even asked her that question directly over at Wildfire Today on that infamous comment thread under Brendan’s final admission that he had ALWAYS been LYING ( by omission ) to every investigator who had the mis-fortune to talk to him.
But that’s the ‘thread’ where just after I asked that question… and Holly gave a weird answer… Bill Gabbert WIPED OUT that entire public discussion and it’s never been restored.
I didn’t even time to save what Holly Neill said in reply to the question about whether or not she thought Eric Marsh, if he had been out ahead of his men, then failed horribly as a ‘forward lookout’… but her response was along the lines of she wasn’t thinking that far ahead… and she would still rather know that Eric Marsh had been doing what he was supposed to be doing… and so there must be some OTHER reason why they all died.
So there you go.
It’s all about desperately hoping that ‘evidence’ can be found to prove that Eric and Jesse were, at all times that day, being ‘good little hotshots’… and just leave it that.
Forget about any questions that come AFTER that… like… oh… I don’t know… something along the lines of…
“If they did everything they were supposed to do… had lookouts everywhere and maybe even HAD scouted, marked, timed, improved, cut a runway you could land a plane on all the way from the saddle to the BSR… dusted it off and added solar lighting…
…then why did 19 men still end up dying horrible deaths on the floor of a blind box canyon full of explosive unburned fuel?”
That’s all just ‘extraneous detail’… right?
Good lord of the Irish–I could not imagine that 63 went to 72 comments so quickly. You mean that after three years people are still interested in why 19 died and have not got the full answers? Well thank you WTKTT for hanging in there, and all else that are concerned why 19 young men are dead. It torchers more than my soul and the devil smiles at all the cover ups that aid the son of a bitch. The Irish are warriors, they fought the English naked and were considered barbarians by those knee bowing English that still thin the Crown shit doesn’t stink. Well here is news from an Irish sonny, I need not bow the knee to anyone. I looked those English elite over and shit keep them out of my camp.
But this isn’t a war against the bull shitters in England. See one of my wives was right out of Norfork England if I spelled that right. Linda Evans taught me a hell of a lot about their ways there. A small country, bigger than Ireland, but so small you have to keep a coat and tie handy in case royalty shows up. Shit maybe the royalty should keep a bag of potatoes handy in case they show up at my place. But what has this to do with fire fighting. Well dealing with the Queen would be like dealing with a wild fire.
Like I told that German at the legion tonight you Germans did emigrate from Ireland–why we like to stay neutral fighting Germans–they are our brothers and their good intelligence came from us. Well again what has that got to do with wild land fire fighting. A non German told me tonight that common sense goes a long ways. Nineteen dead men does not happen by happenstance. I agree to that statement.
Bullshit is bullshit and we have been treated like dummies. To tell us this is a god thing or an accident is like saying to me I am a fool. Sorry but you fire men that do this dangerous work have all said, no, no accident. Foolish actions. No I would not take my crew down there, no way considering all known and what the bosses knew that day.
I talked to a man today that went to school with Rick McKensey. He said Rick was different. How was he different? He knew that you do not get trapped in manzanita with a wild fire near.
Who are the heroes here? I want to meet them, please come visit me and tell me how heroic you were during the Yarnell fire. Well don’t, I do not like bull shit. This was history’s worst fuck up in a long time. No one saved anyone here. In fact, if you took someone out, Joy and I did, it was because that is what you do. But it has no reason to accept awards, especially when 19 men died, half the town burned and tax payers are still doling out hundreds of thousands of dollars to appease the loved ones for a trail to nowhere.
It reminds me of when I was a kid and D_9 bull dozers took our desert home down under eminent domain because they needed an over pass to nowhere. But you see, we needed interstates everywhere to move our army about the states. Eisenhower did this and he was right. He did not know we never got a dime for our property, well, Dad’s property. Dad was a miner after being a machine gunner in WW1. He got there late in the war, and at 15 yr. I am not sure how many Germans fell to his and his partners machine gun. He said they fell like cord wood, while the French did nothing to stop them. He did say his partner shit his pants when they opened up on the Germans and asked him what to do. Dad said take your pants down and wipe your ass. I believe this to be a true account, and I wonder what it would be like for a young man to know that death is eminent. But wild land fire fighting is not war in that sense. It should not be that a young man faces eminent death such as we saw here at Yarnell.
This all has me with two still unanswered questions. 1. Was Marsh alone when he scouted off the mountain? 2. If there was no hotshot going ahead to improve the route, does that mean there was a open trail all or most of the way to the bsr?
Reply to calvin post on April 2, 2016 at 2:34 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> This all has me with two still unanswered questions.
>>
>> 1. Was Marsh alone when he scouted off the mountain?
ALL of the existing ‘evidence’ says that he WAS.
That he simply did exactly what was his established ‘habit’ and what he had been doing the entire day. He remained ‘separate’ from Steed and the Crew and he was off “doing his own thing”… scouting and tying pink ribbons/flagging on stuff.
That being said… NONE of the existing evidence has ever proven, without a shadow of doubt, that ALL of the 19 other Hotshots were, in fact, present at that ‘final resting spot’ where Christopher Mackenzie shot his photos and videos.
I still ( me, personally ) believe they WERE all there… just ‘out of frame’ for all the photos and videos. Most likely BEHIND Christopher and he just never happened to ‘turn around’ for any of those photos to show them there because his FOCUS was the ‘fire’ out there in the middle bowl.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> 2. If there was no hotshot going ahead to improve the
>> route, does that mean there was a open trail all or
>> most of the way to the bsr?
There has ALWAYS been an “open trail all or most of the way to the bsr”.
It was CLEARLY visible to Eric Marsh and Gary Cordes and anoyone else who had been looking at that area via Google Maps on Dean Fernandez’s iPad during the very first breifing that morning at the Yarnell Fire Station.
Gary Cordes himself told ADOSH that during that breifing… he and Eric went off by himself and Cordes was SHOWING Marsh the BSR via Google Maps on Fernandez’s iPad and ( quoting Cordes himself ) “the ROADS that are in that area”.
This “CLEAR path all the way to the BSR” is what became known in the SAIR as the “alternate escape route”.
According to Gary Cordes’ own testimony… that “CLEAR path/road/trail” clealy visible on Google Maps was NOT The ALTERNATE escape route at all. It’s the one that Eric Marsh SAW on that iPad and Cordes was assuming it to be the PRIMARY ESCAPE ROUTE ( not the alternate ).
So for Eric Marsh to have tied that pink ribbon that Sonny (Tex) Gilligan eventually found indicating he wanted Steed to put his “left blinker on” up at that Saddle and descend into a blind box canyon full of explosive unburned fuel has always meant that, in Eric Marsh’s agenda, TIME was of the essence ( and NOT SAFETY ).
Marsh must have ‘thought’ that was going to be the ‘shortcut’ that would accomplish whatever his real agenda was at that point.
Otherwise… there was NO REASON for both Marsh AND Steed/Crew to have not simply stayed on that “CLEAR path” all the way to the BSR.
Personally… I still think it was only Marsh who SAW that “CLEAR path” that morning on Dean Fernandez’s iPad.
In other words… when Marsh hit the saddle on his ‘scouting ahead’ jaunt… HE knew very well well that two-track led all the way around to the BSR and that he COULD have stayed on it… but when Jesse Steed hit that ‘pink flagging’ Eric had left indicating he should LEAVE the two-track and drop into the canyon… Jesse Steed had no such knowledge.
So it would have been difficult for Steed to argue about STAYING on the two-track at that point.
It also introduces another possible tragic component that Eric Marsh, even though he KNEW that two-track eventually arrived at the BSR… was HIDING that information from Steed and not even giving Steed that option… because that’s not the option that Marsh wanted him to have.
Marsh wanted him to drop himself and the men into the canyon… toot sweet… because Marsh thought that was a major shortcut and the key to getting ‘back in the game’ as fast as possible.
The absolute TRAGIC part of all of this is that we have already done the MATH here and discovered that given a ‘clear hiking path’ versus dropping into that maze in the canyon… it really wasn’t even the ‘shortcut’ that Marsh must have thought it was. If they had all just stayed on that two-track and just followed it around like anyone with a smartphone and Google could have seen in seconds… they would have all still arrived at the BSR in roughly the same timeframe as any attempt to reach it through that blind box canyon.
WTKTT, good work that sounds reasonable. Steed, as the Acting GMHS Supt, still had the responsibility to ensure that short cut was scouted.
And to NOT go any further into the unburned chute, because once they bailed of into it, they were blind and more or less committed.
And Steed also had the responsibility to have the two track(s) to the BSR scouted, timed, marked, and made known.
Agreed.
What Type 1 IHC Superintendent would/should ever just sit back and say… “That’s not my job… my DIVS is supposed to do that for me/us”.
This touches on a very important point, though.
There is still NO concrete evidence ( that I know of ) which absolutely places Jesse Steed AT that first morning briefing there at the Yarnell Fire Station. The one where we DO have the testimony ( from Cordes ) that he and Eric Marsh absolutely DID use Dean Fernandez’s iPad to ‘look at’ a Google Map of the area, and Cordes was first pointing out the BSR to Marsh *AND* ( according to Cordes ) “the roads that lead to it”.
It remains an absolute mystery whether Jesse Steed was ALSO seeing the same thing… or whether he was even ‘in the room’… or whether he was even standing outside in the YFD parking lot when that crucial ‘look see’ on that iPad was taking place.
There is only INDIRECT evidence that Jesse Steed was ever even AT that morning briefing.
When asked about this… Brendan McDonough verified that the GM Crew itself was NOT there. They had remained up at the Model Creek School ICP to have breakfast, use the restrooms, fill up water bottles, etc. That’s also when local resident and lifelong hunter Rick McKenzie went up to them WHILE they were having breakfast and WARNED them about the ‘environment’ they were about to go to work in. That is when McKenzie specifically TOLD them… “Watch out for that manzanita. Don’t go down in that stuff. It can BLOW UP on you like ‘gasoline on a stick'”.
Here is exactly what Brendan told ADOSH.
Brendan says that Marsh AND Steed DID ( both ) go ‘down’ to that Yarnell Fire Station briefing… along with ‘some others’…. while the rest of GM just stayed there at the Model Creek School…
A = Brendan McDonough
————————————————————-
198 Q2: Ah, that day, what time did you guys get there?
199
200 A: To completely honest on timeframes I’m not really, um, I don’t know.
201
202 Q1: And you don’t have to be precise, we’re just wondering roughly.
203
204 Q2: Yeah.
205
206 A: Um…
207
208 Q2: Okay. Ah, did you guys have a – th- th- overhead – go to a briefing? Or hear
209 a…
210
211 A: Yeah. They went to a briefing at Yarnell Fire Department.
212
213 Q2: Fire Department?
214
215 A: Mm-hm.
216
217 Q1: Who – who all went? Was it, ah, Eric and some more there?
218
219 A: Eric and Steed and few other of the overhead.
220
221 Q1: Okay.
222
223 A: At that point we were just making sure we had our water and had everything
224 we needed.
————————————————————-
But there is still no other testimony that puts Jesse Steed himself INSIDE that meeting and not either off gassing up the Chase truck or getting water himself or even just standing around in the YFD parking lot.
So it’s unbelievable that a report would come out that was totally focused on just “What options they thouught they had” at various places… but the same report ( the SAIR ) never even lifted a finger to verify what INFORMATION the ‘decision makers’ may or may not have had.
We still have NO IDEA if Jesse Steed EVER saw the same ‘iPad map’ of the area that Eric Marsh did… or whether Jesse Steed ever even KNEW that the high-ridge two-track did, in fact, go ALL the way to the BSR.
It would have been the responsibility of BOTH Marsh and Steed to share information and to seek it out.
It would have been disingenuous and/or irresponsible for March not to mention any of it to Steed, to brief him. And it would have also been irresponsible for Steed and/or one of his Squad Bosses not to seek out such information, especially if you missed an important briefing..
Still in complete agreement.
But if all we are left with is to ponder WHY certain men made the decisions they did, at certain times…. it still seems absurd that we don’t even really know what INFORMATION those men had.
In this case… Jesse Steed.
There are MANY people left alive who SHOULD be able to answer some of these SIMPLE questions…
1. Was Jesse Steed actually ‘in the room’ that first morning breifing at the Yarnell Fire Station?
2. If not, WHY not?
3. If so… then was Jesse Steed ALSO in that ‘huddle’ with Eric Marsh and Gary Cordes and looking at the same iPad they were… and seeing the same image of the BSR on a Google Map that ALSO ( clearly ) showed that two-track leading ALL THE WAY TO IT.
4. If not. WHY not?
If Steed was never even ‘in the room’ at that meeting, then it remains total conjecture whether Eric Marsh ever actually SHARED the same information he received/saw in that briefing.
But surely it must still be possible to ‘narrow down the possibilities’ and VERIFY whether this man who would eventually consent to dropping OFF that two-track was ever IN that meeting… and whether he ever definitely knew that staying ON that two-track was “one of his options”.
Calvin–no cutting, Marsh was always ahead of his men until they got into trouble because of his disregard for their safety but also because someone above him or maybe more than one wanted his crew to protect structures. They though the Pulaski’s and garden hoses might help I assume never mind the fire was breathing 100 foot flames according to Donut and there was no hope of doing anything but saving your own asses by staying in a safe zone and watching. I saw that with my own weak eyes and know that 1000 wild land fire fighters would have been useless against that fire.
Calvin on the open trail bit. No way unless Marsh had a baby chain saw tied to his side and cut trail for the other guys. I never saw him lift anything but a radio and a roll of pink tape when we were there. There was no trail, only dense freaking brush and yes by nip and tuck Marsh could get through like a ballet dancer making moves back and forth and under thick brush. You don’t wear shorts and shower shoes in that shit if you think anything of your hide, but you know that you been there. Joys photos of that very area shows a sea of dull green manzanita. It is the state bush, a killer too if you get caught up in it.
Gary I had not thought of it that way. Holly trying to protect the sensitivity of Amanda by finding stobs that indicated Marsh had his men in the highest possible risk situation building line down in that canyon out of sight of the fire that he knew was just around the ridge with wind conditions changing and no lookout and no escape so “No EXIT,’ then she just put a bullet hole though the golden star he has been awarded for his touted good works. Right–Good Work Eric, you just killed 18 and committed suicide if it were written up correctly.
It is sad, but is there anything about unintentional suicide here. That might be the charge, but the other is serious to the nth degree. That one is the neglence that killed the others and that negligence goes back to Friday, June 28, 2013. How the distribution goes would take a WTKTT and a few others including Gary, Bob, Ted, and maybe 10 more to add the tab of guilt to 100% fuck up. No awards in this debacle please. Even miner, cowboy, and logger types can see what this was.
Sonny—-Do you have knowledge of or concur with Joy that there was no Chainsaw work in the Canyon while you were on the mountain?
What were your times from seeing Marsh till you left the area where you could no longer see the crew?
Bob, you have already said it. No way they would have bothered to even think of cutting a line in that brush. We never heard it and the only known cutting was when they built up brush around themselves to help warm the blankets. That is all bullshit about cutting brush. They saw the fire exactly as we did–it was a total wild fire and there was nothing to do but let the Big Dog Eat and it did. Only a fool would challenge it–there was only one thing to do and my heart was racing when I saw the fire works–stand back find safety and keep out of the way. Good lord have you seen the videos of what came after them–Melted aluminum, melted lead out of tin cans, tires burned off at the grader and at helms ranch–but they saw this early on–yet were convinced to risk lives in a trap. There was no cutting until they though the turkey roasters in a cut out area would save them. Only reason Marsh came back to them because he believe the same–he was not suicidal but thought he and the men would survive. He did not know shit about manzanita fires.
No chain saw work Bob. I know chain saws–Logger for White Sands Lumber out of Alamogordo I felled trees for them almost a year until Sierra Club shut them down due to the spotted owl habitat and its threatened existence so I cut wood for a living another ten years until I got tire paying fines for over loads, etc since I was able to do two cords a day while five of that sheriff possie still had not done one. It takes years to learn that type work and you just do not go out and think you can do logging or wood cutting even or sawyer work that GMHS did without experience and know how. There were 17 loggers and one had a Stihl and 16 had Husqvarna saws. Well I had a Husky, but now I bought a new one and when I tried to adjust the carb the think is fucked made in China and I had to bust the plastic shit they now put on it so I could get it to run properly. Plumb different since the carbs used to be made in Ireland and I could fix them quick. Maybe the Sthill is the better way to go these days, I do not know–they used to be slower than Huskys but I used to be faster too. Same with Husqvarna rifles, best ever. Those Swedes never let one go that would not shoot under an inch at 100 meters. They would pull the barrel and either melt it or sell it to the Russians. Probably their new rifles are made in China too. Well they say a few Chinese things are good. Inform me what they are.
The idea is, they had heavy Sthils–and they did not do any down cutting, did not need to unless they did cut out a bit before the final cut out to lay down their turkey roasters–Bob’s term, not mine.
Bob thinks you shouldn’t carry them but they would beat newspapers if you get cold at night.
Sonny———-Do you have a time frame you can share as to when you met Marsh till when you could no longer see the Canyon area and here any Saw work in there. If there was no saws in there in the morning and how late into the Afternoon. Your observations and time frame are real testimony as to whether there was in fact ever a trail built prior to the crew descending into the Canyon.
If they were not there in the morning how late?
If Joy sat where she could see the canyon When?
What time did you bail out of there?
Thanks for any info on the above.———
Bob, Holly never mentioned any stobs to us in that area. She was sharing everything with Joy and Joy was reciprocating with all we knew. I highly doubt that, but I would go look if the state had not closed the area. I rather talk to Wayne Neil on that one–He would give the straight of it all.
Followup…
It still sort of sickens me to think that Eric Marsh might have known very well that the two-track/trail did, in fact, ‘wind around’ and eventually ‘end up’ right there near the BSR Safety Zone… but that he NEVER shared that ‘intel’ with Steed…
…but I still believe that was the case.
It remains simply ‘not credible’ to me that, if Jesse Steed had that same knowledge, that he would have consented to dropping down into that blind box canyon full of explosive unburned fuel.
I still believe that when Jesse, himself, reached that pink ribbon that Marsh had left there indicating Marsh WANTED him to ‘drop into the blind box canyon’… all Jesse saw at that point was the two track appearing to just go off towards the SOUTH and the boondocks, with no knowledge that it was going to eventually turn EAST and take him and his men to the BSR.
But ( apparently ) Marsh simply didn’t WANT Jesse to even ‘have that option’.
Marsh wanted him to just ‘follow the ribbons’.
Do it MY way. Do it NOW.
I am really struggling with the idea of Marsh being at BSR. While driving today this random thought popped into my head. What if Marsh was both in front of the crew and then behind the crew? In front while flagging the two track for their way out, then behind when the crew dove off into the bowl and he was up the two track and out of sight. So the crew turned left when they should have stayed right on the two track (even though the next 75 yards became very steep uphill). Then when the crew radioed that they were in front of the flaming front Marsh came off the two track down into the bowl to join them.
So what about the roll of flagging that Sonny found? That could have been accidentally dropped from any crew member including Marsh. I have yet to wrap my head around the fact that the crew was trapped in front of the flaming front, which was between them and BSR. That would be the same flame front that Marsh would have to go through or get around to get back to the crew from BSR.
I probably should just listen to the radio when I drive!
Reply to Norb Szczurek post on April 2, 2016 at 6:36 pm
>> Norb said…
>>
>> What if Marsh was both in front of the crew and then
>> behind the crew? In front while flagging the two track
>> for their way out, then behind when the crew dove off
>> into the bowl and he was up the two track and out
>> of sight. So the crew turned left when they should
>> have stayed right on the two track (even though the
>> next 75 yards became very steep uphill).
There are actually still a lot of ‘scenarios’ that remain “in the realm of possibility”.
I’ll go you even one better.
What if Eric Marsh had done ‘double time’ ( since he was alone doing the scouting ) and he, himself, actually STAYED on that ‘two-track all the way to the BSR… since we pretty much know for sure that at least Eric Marsh saw that road on that iPad that morning and KNEW that it ‘turned EAST’ but still went all the way down there.
Then what if there WAS no ‘pink flagging’ telling Jesse to put his ‘left blinker on’ and drop into the canyon?
What if that CRUCIAL decision actually had nothing to do with Marsh and it was something Jesse and his Squad leaders decided to do all on their own the moment that Ranch came into sight?
And ( in turn )… what if Eric Marsh, at some point, became totally amazed himself that Steed and the men had opted to try for that ‘shortcut’?
Bottom line is that we do NOT know WHERE Eric Marsh was at any point after 1540, when we KNOW he was at the anchor point and still expecting Brina Frisby to arrive there at any moment for that second face-to-face Marsh had requested at 1528.
>> Norb also said…
>>
>> Then when the crew radioed that they were in front
>> of the flaming front Marsh came off the two track
>> down into the bowl to join them.
I’m not following you on this one.
Wherever Marsh was at 1639… he could ONLY have been ( at the most ) 2 minutes and 30 seconds hard-run away from their location because that is when he, himself, came on the radio and said he was (now) “WITH Granite Mountain”.
It still remains possible that Marsh was already there with them even when the first 1639 botched-MAYDAY went out on the A2G channel.
Marsh might have ALREADY been there and the one ‘directing’ the clearing and the burnout operations and he just TOLD Steed to get on the horn with ‘Air Attack’… and for even the next 2+ minutes, Marsh was letting them handle that while he continued to direct the ‘burning out around ourselves’ operation.
It remains just another ‘possibility’.
>> Norb also said…
>>
>> So what about the roll of flagging that Sonny found?
>> That could have been accidentally dropped from
>> any crew member including Marsh.
Yes. There is no denying that has always been ( and remains ) just another possibility.
>> Norb also said…
>>
>> I have yet to wrap my head around the fact that the
>> crew was trapped in front of the flaming front, which
>> was between them and BSR. That would be the
>> same flame front that Marsh would have to go
>> through or get around to get back to the crew from BSR.
Pretty much… yes.
We will ( apparently ) forever be faced with the conundrum that WHEREVER Marsh happened to be at 1639, when the first botched-MAYDAY call hit the radio… that if HE had time to reach Steed and the Crew from wherever HE was at that moment… then physics says Steed and the Crew would have ALSO had the same amount of time to have also made it from where THEY had been… to where Marsh was.
>> Norb also said…
>>
>> I probably should just listen to the radio when I drive!
The only thing that is ever going to take away some of these other ‘possibilities’ is for the people who are still alive who have ANY ADDITIONAL INFORMATION to come forward with it voluntarily… or someday be FORCED to provide it.
WTKTT,
I’m not following you on this one.
Wherever Marsh was at 1639… he could ONLY have been ( at the most ) 2 minutes and 30 seconds hard-run away from their location because that is when he, himself, came on the radio and said he was (now) “WITH Granite Mountain”.
So where I was going with this is he would have a down hill, partially on two track to get back to them – which might explain the 2minutes and 30 seconds.. In stead of coming from BSR and dealing with that flame front.
Reply to Norb Szczurek post on
April 2, 2016 at 9:19 pm
>> Norb said…
>>
>> So where I was going with this is he would
>> have a down hill, partially on two track to
>> get back to them – which might explain
>> the 2 minutes and 30 seconds.. Instead of
>> coming from BSR and dealing with that
>> flame front.
Ah… okay… thank you.
So you’re saying that for whatever reason Marsh might have found himself BEHIND all those men ( and even still up on the two-track )… that he might have had time to basically THROW himself DOWNHILL and reach them in time to both appear on the radio… and then DIE with them.
Let me just say that if that’s what you were considering… we actually DO have a REAL-TIME example of someone doing that very thing… in that very location ( except for the dying part ).
Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown.
When DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 first found the deployment site, they radioed out the GPS coordinates.
At that moment… Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown, and the 3 off-the-radar hires from the Prescott National Forest ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) were all ‘on the ground’ up at the anchor point and still searching THERE for any signs of the shelters.
Trueheart Brown was OUT of the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV at that moment, and was ‘waking around’ at the anchor point when these coordinates came over the radio.
Brown had his handheld GPS Unit WITH him, in his hand, and he punched in the coordinates.
The minute his GPS Unit showed him where those coordinates were… Brian Frisby’s own handwritten Unit Log says that is when Trueheart Brown simply ‘took off running’ to the SOUTH on that high-ridge two-track… and as FAST as he could possibly run.
Brown continued to just RUN ( as fast as he could ) until he reached that same ‘Descent Point’ down there on the saddle above the box canyon… and then Trueheart Brown literally just THREW HIMSELF down that slope and towards the deployment site… as FAST as he could go.
Here is Brown’s exact GPS data showing him ‘approaching’ the exact spot where Sonny found the pink flagging, and then him liteerally THROWING himself down to the floor of the box canyon and then his ARRIVAL at the deployment site…
NOTE: The short ‘comments’ about what each GPS data reading represents was added manually…
———————————————————–
1821 – 34.223189, -112.783359 – 0505.706 – 05.75 – Heading south on two-track towards box canyon
1822 – 34.221823, -112.782125 – 0715.249 – 08.13 – At bailout point and already left two-track starting descent
1823 – 34.221024, -112.780913 – 0459.679 – 05.22 – Descending in drainage area
1824 – 34.220944, -112.780441 – 0131.291 – 01.49 – Descending in drainage area
1825 – 34.220760, -112.779878 – 0177.553 – 02.02 – Descending in drainage area
1826 – 34.220570, -112.778891 – 0321.836 – 03.65 – Descending in drainage area
1827 – 34.220503, -112.778188 – 0222.092 – 02.52 – Descending in draingae area, almost to deployment site
1828 – 34.220490, -112.777668 – 0156.980 – 01.78 – At deployment site now
———————————————————–
So starting with the 1822 PM reading, which was almost exactly at the point where Sonny Gilligan found that burned-up ball of pink flagging… and ending with Brown’s actual ARRIVAL down there at the deployment site…
It took him just 6 minutes.
And that’s with the entire area already ‘moonscaped’ and no Brush or ground visibility issues.
That represents an INCREDIBLE rate of descent… and he’s probably lucky he didn’t break his neck… but that’s still 3 minutes and 30 seconds longer than your suggestion that Marsh might have done the same thing in only 2 minutes and 30 seconds… WITH all the Brush still there.
Good example, but what I am saying is “maybe” Marsh was not that far in front of the crew. After taking that hike with Sonny and Joy I can see that if Marsh was 100/200 yards in front the crew would have lost sight of him, especially at the left turn right turn junction. Because the right went up a significant climb in which you would not see anyone out in front of you. Or he could have been further along that two track to a point that it would have been even closer to descend into the box canyon to meet the crew. Just not convinced he was at BSR.
I hear ya, Norb.
Yes… since we still have no earthly idea WHERE Marsh REALLY was after 1540 PM… there are still a LOT of ‘possibilities’.
The very fact that we are even here having this discussion… and dwelling on ALL of the ‘possibilities’ is, itself, proof of the amount of TOTAL FAIL that was going on out there that day.
The ‘C’ in LCES
“Communicate CLEARLY and EFFECTIVELY”
And that includes… WHERE you are… WHAT you are doing… and WHY you are doing it.
Absolutely, when I made that post I wondered if there was any communication – and how simple it would have been to communicate the route to follow, stay on the two track, fairly steep pitch but then it flattens out. Oh, and if we need to we can dive off toward Congress, very steep but the fire probably wont follow.
This helps my heart. Now that Norb has been on the two track he can talk and his life as a wild land fire fighter boss speaks well. Thanks for helping us try to determine why 19 are dead for no good reason.
WTKTT, if you hiked the alternative and we have many times–you would know that it might have been a better option. Death would have been quicker since that narrow canyon would have been and was a better blow torch effect than the basin. You see the time factor would have caught them either way except the brush and up draft in that narrow canyon above the cattle pond was far hotter and quicker than the basin. These are things you know by hiking. Maybe Norb will give his take since he did go down the alternative where they could have gone and Joy keeps saying she wanted to go. Norb will tell you we did see some cutting after the fire and how steep it is–but he does not know how dense the vegetation was before the fire, I do.
Marsh’s only sensible thing to do was keep his men safe once the fire went wild. He failed, but instead had orders and strictly obeyed them as a good example to his men. Well his strict obedience and the men’s trust in he and Steed cost their lives. I hope that future trained firemen are tested in that manzinita, cat claw ( ask Norb about that since it ate his legs badly) and scrub oak so they know more than their bosses that do not tackle that shit, so they can give a finger to the boss when their life is at stake. Some bosses are better off riding bikes than trying to manage the lives of young men that know no better than their boss.
Yes… Sonny… you are right.
Even sticking to the ‘alternate escape route’ might have simply just provided a ‘quicker death’ that day.
I am on record, way back when we were doing the MATH and the TIMING on that ‘alternate escape route’ as saying that EVEN IF they were able to maintain the exact same PACE on that leg of the journey that they had apparently been able to achieve on the ‘first leg’ hiking away from the anchor point and down to the ‘Descent Point’… they would have simply still been trading one explosive fuel-filled blind-box-canyon for another.
And the MATH also says that they most PROBABLY still would have had to ‘drop packs and run’ to have any chance at staying alive, even on that ‘alternate escape route’.
But either way…. the MATH still supports the fact that choosing the path they did was by NO MEANS any kind of ‘shortcut’… and if that has anything to do with WHY they chose to go that way… then they were lacking in the kind of ‘situational awareness’ that these (supposedly) ‘elite’ hiking men are SUPPOSED to possess.
The only ‘cure’ that day was ‘prevention’.
They should have STAYED WHERE THEY WERE.
Anything else… was just a BAD ( eventually fatal ) decision.
Reply to Charlie at 10:05 p.m.
In reference to Eric Marsh you stated:
“He failed, but instead had orders and strictly obeyed them as a good example to his men.”
I hope you are not trying to represent this statement as being “fact.”
It is not an established fact. Readers of this discussion need to be aware of what is fact and what is speculation.
J. Stout,
Thanks for posting this. I agree with you.
Again, WTKTT, this is the motto of being a good Boy Scout–Be Prepared. But the GMHS motto was Be Prepared to take orders–from Marsh’s superior, then from Marsh, then from Steed. In the army they told me if they needed any shit out of me they would squeeze my head. Listen up mother fucker, we give the orders, you do as I say. Strictly obey or your ass is grass.
There needs to be a T-Shirt for these guys/gals that they can wear which says…
“I’m here to get the job done… and I’m willing to follow the ‘direction’ of others who know more than I do about how to do that… but if I had wanted to join the fucking MILITARY;…. I would have done that instead.”
Firefighting is NOT THE MILITARY.
It is a CIVIL SERVICE job.
The one consolation that Steed would have had if he had taken the known alternative route–Norb took it with us and will tell you–Steed and company could have for some time dropped off the mountain to the west and been safe. By the time he got to the head of the steep canyon I can imagine that the fire would have already gotten around the north slope of the basin and his look out (Marsh) near the ranch would have said go the other way, do not descend to the BSR since my whiskers are being singed here.
Right on Sonny My continued question why would Marsh if he could see the fire from any place in the open mouth of the Canyon to BSR let his men still come down that Shute to the BSR. What the fire was doing by 1630
If seen would have scared a well seasoned FF that was in a canyon full of brush.
Marsh and Crew could not see what the Fire was doing at any time in the Canyon or they would have got the hell out of there.
Bob,
You posted: “Marsh and Crew could not see what the Fire was doing at any time in the Canyon or they would have got the hell out of there.”
They were in an Escalation Commitment, very similar to Groupthink, to follow through on a failed plan once they made the decision to leave the safe black and step off the high ridge (mid-slope) road and CONTINUE DOWN deeper into the unburned chute.
They were in a dilemma, mainly from NOT following the basics of LCES.
Taken from Escalating Commitment in in Individual and Group Decision Making posted in Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes, 54, 430-455 (1993) by Glen Whyte.
I have tried posting the link 4 times and failed every time, so just GTS the above to find the article. Well worth reading.
Posting some Brendon McDonough interview excerpts from the Dropbox link Joy posted along with comments and questions. (ALL EMPHASIS IS MINE)
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABDK7guZcOW4ICbvbJy35GUa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/City%20of%20Prescott%20Fire%20–%20GMHS/Employee%20Interviews%20by%20ADOSH/Transcripts/Brendan%20McDonough%20Interview%208-20-13.pdf?dl=0
INTERVIEW WITH BRENDAN MCDONOUGH
“518
Q2: WHERE – WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT A SAFETY ZONE? When would you talk about that? WHERE – WHERE WAS IT?
520
521
A: I – ONE OF OUR SAFETY ZONES WAS BACK IN THE BLACK.
522
523
Q2: Right.
524
525
A: AND THEY HAD ANOTHER ONE FOR THE RANCH [BSR].
526
527
Q2: Oh, that big…
A: THAT CLEARING.
530
531
Q2: …big ranch thing? Okay.
532
533
A: IT WAS CLEARED OUT.
534
535
Q2: Yeah. We saw that.
536
537
A: ‘CAUSE IT HAD A, I MEAN, THERE WAS A NICE TWO TRACK LEADING PRETTY MUCH RIGHT TO IT ALMOST.
According to this, the GMHS had ALWAYS considered the BSR to be an alternative and/or “another” Safety Zone. And a ‘nice two track leading pretty much almost right to it [BSR] almost” .
.
543
544
Q2: So that’s where you got – THAT – WAS THAT THE ESCAPE ROUTE IF YOU DECIDED THAT – YOU DECIDED EITHER YOU WERE GO[ING TO] STAY IN THE BLACK OR GO TO THE RANCH
547
548
A: FROM WHAT I WAS INFORMED, YES. But I had moved to a different position.
This conversation is obviously based on the ‘discussing our options’ GMHS Crew Net
radio conversation between Marsh and Steed that McDonough would have clearly heard on his GMHS Crew Radio. It’s a moot point that he moved to a different position because it was line of sight from him to the GMHS above. He would/could have heard everything.
Q2: IF THEY WERE GONNA DO A – A SAFETY ZONE AT THE RANCH, AH, WHAT WAS THEIR PREPLANNED ESCAPE ROUTE? WHAT – WAS IT ALONG, I MEAN, WAS IT ALONG THE RIDGE?
730
731
A: THERE’S A TWO TRACK UP THERE.
732
733
Q 2: Right. SO THAT WAS IT? THE PLAN?
734
735
A: FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND. YES.
This is obviously referring to their “PREPLANNED ESCAPE ROUTE … ALONG THE RIDGE” as the mid-slope road and/or high ridge road that led from ‘the black’ Safety Zone and passed right by the drop-off point above the BSR.
8-20-13/1:00 pm
Case # McDonough
Page 18
Going back to the – to WHEN THEY WERE GONNA THINK ABOUT GOING TO THE RANCH AND THEY WERE GONNA GO ALONG THE TWO TRACK ON THE RIDGE. THAT BEING THEIR PLAN? DID THEY – DID THEY SEND A SAW TEAM BACK TO SPRUCE THAT UP SOME?
778
779
A: IT WAS CLEAR.
780
781
Q2:It was clear. Okay. So they didn’t.
782
783
A: NO
A . NOT. I DON’T KNOW.
784
785
Q1: Not when you were there or anything?
786
787
A: NOT WHEN I WAS THERE
No need for a chainsaw because the two-track road was clear. And somewhat disingenuous first saying it was clear and then he didn’t know. The two track was either clear or it wasn’t.
Q1: Okay. Okay so, ah, but it’s best, ah, we can understand this maybe the spot that was the ranch that they talked about as a safety spot. Is that? THEY TALKED ABOUT A RANCH BEING A SAFETY ZONE.
886
887
A: YES SIR
Once again, the GMHS are already IN a good Safety Zone, i.e. the black, but yet they talked about the BSR being a Safety Zone. Why even have that discussion?
There is never a time to leave one good Safety Zone to travel to another Safety Zone if where you are is safe and especially with the forecast strong winds and observed and expected fire behavior clearly visible below them..
Now Dave, that looks like a two track right there.
1465
1466
A: THAT’S THE TWO TRACK THAT WOULD BE HAVE BEEN THE ESCAPE ROUTE THAT THEY TOOK.
1467
1468
Q1: Oh okay.
1469
1470
A: KINDA MID SLOP ALONG THE RIDGE.
1471
1472
Q2: Right. WHEN IT WAS TIME TO GO TO THE RANCH, THAT’S WHAT THEY WERE GONNA USE?
1473
1474
A: I BELIEVE SO.
1475
1476
Q1: Okay.
1477
1478
A: I DIDN’T SEE THEM
So, the upper ridge two-track road ans/or mid-slope two-track were tentatively identified by McDonough as the GMHS Escape Route, even though he is being somewhat disingenuous by saying he “didn’t SEE them.” He would have HEARD them talking about it on the GMHS Crew Net. That sure sounds like predetermined and/or preplanned to me.
A: AND THIS TWO TRACK TIES ALL THE WAY – IT GOES ALL THE WAY AROUND FROM WHAT I’VE HEARD TO BACK DOWN…
1550
1551
Q2: BACK DOWN — YEAH IT DOES. WE – WE HAD A GUY WALK IT FROM BEHIND THE RANCH UP AND AROUND.
1553
1554
A: MM-HM. YEAH.
At least someone from the SAIT walked it and verified it. And “from what I heard” kinda suggests maybe McDonough heard that on the GMHS Crew Net radio ‘discussing our options’ radio conversation
1849
Q1:So, you-you’re TRIGGER POINT and – YOU AND STEED , ah, IT’S TIME FOR YOU TO LEAVE.
1851
1852
A: And ERIC and STEED had talked about these trigger points before I even left. WE ALREADY DISCUSSED ‘EM WITH BLUE RIDGE…
1854
1855
Q1:Right. And so, um, DOES BLUE RIDGE HEAR THAT YOU’RE GONNA DEPART AND …
1856
1857
A: THEY COULD SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON AND THEY ALREADY HEADED THERE WHEN I WAS LEAVING. To my knowledge to go down, BEFORE I EVEN CALLED THEM ON THE RADIO HE’S ALREADY THERE.
1860
1861
Q1: He was coming to…
1862
1863
A: Yeah.
1864
1865
Q1: COMING TO THAT POINT SO THAT – THAT CAME TOGETHER REALLY WELL. YOU DIDN’T …
1866
1867
A: YEAH
1869
((Crosstalk))
1870
1871
A: I MEAN, HE TOLD ME.
1872
1873
Q1: Yeah.
1874
1875
A: I – I TRUST HIM.
GMHS Lookout McDonough’s escape plan had already been discussed and agreed upon. There was NO drama here. So, this strongly suggests that the entire alleged dramatic rescue of GMHS Lookout McDonough by the BRHS is bogus. Pure drama. The BRHS did NOT just happen to come across him and rescue him because it was discussed and preplanned by the BRHS and the GMHS.
1905 Before we even leave I’m loading my stuff up and I HAND MY RADIO TO BLUE RIDGE SO HE CAN TALK TO ERIC AND STEED AND LET THEM KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON.
1906
1907
Q1: Okay.
1908
1909
A: Just give ’em some more information on what he’d seen from a different vantage point.
1911
1912
Q1:
Right.
1913
1914
A: And what he’s gonna do with me and that we were gonna move the vehicles.
This is why – this is really quick…
1916
1917
((Crosstalk))
1918
1919
Q2: Sure
1924
1925
Q1: WHAT – HOW DID HE DESCRIBE THAT LOCATION, AH?
1926
1927
A: OFF THE HIGHWAY. That he would move them along. IF ERIC HAD NEEDED THEM HE WOULD HELP GET THEM.
“IF ERIC HAD NEEDED THEM HE WOULD HELP GET THEM strongly suggests that Marsh was MICROMANAGING in GMHS business rather than perform his Division A duties and allow Steed to make the GMHS decisions and run the Crew.
This also could relate to the entire leaving the black to head down to the BSR, including the radio transmissions from Cordes to Esquibel about meeting the GMHS coming down to the BSR.
1930
Q1: Get them. Get him to that spot.
1931
1932
A: GET THEM [THE GMHS CREW CARRIERS] TO – TO WHEREVER THEY [GMHS] WERE.
1933
1934
Q1: So they didn’t pick an actual end point. JUST THAT HE WAS GONNA GET THEM OUT OF THE WAY AND ….
1936
1937
A: OFF THE HIGHWAY
2011
Q2: So when you – you went and they picked you up and you moved vehicles and all that stuff that’s going on, DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE – WHAT THE CREW WAS DOING? WERE THEY MOVING TOWARDS THE RANCH?
2014
2015
A: THAT WASN’T RELAYED TO ME. I JUST TOLD – ‘CAUSE I KNEW – I knew the storm was coming in. I KNEW THEY WEREN’T — I mean, you don’t want to sit there and be a Chatty Cathy on the radio. ‘Cause I told them, “Hey if you guys need anything? I’ll be with Blue Ridge.” They knew that.” Um, just let me know. And I’ll get ahold of you AND I’LL SEE YOU GUYS SOON.”
McDonough is being disingenuous again. He was listening to the GMHS Crew Net radio ‘discussing our options’ conversation, so it did NOT have to be “RELAYED” to him. And he told them “I’LL SEE YOU GUYS SOON” because he was listening to them talk about leaving the good black and heading down to the BSR. He KNEW they were leaving the black and heading down to the BSR.
2057
A: I mean in my personal opinion and what I seen from the ground IT’S JUST A FREAK ACCIDENT. You – you always plan for things, but IT HAPPENS. IT – IT’S HAPPENED BEFORE.
Yeah right, a “freak accident.” It just happened that they died that day, they didn’t do anything at all to cause and/or contribute to their deaths. And “it’s happened before.” Really? When?
I think it’s pretty clear that the GMHS fully intended to leave the black and their Safety Zone for at least the latter part of the day. I also think that the GMHS used their ‘preplanned Escape Route’ along the high ridge and/or mid-slope road INITIALLY, at least to the drop off point, and then, RATHER THAN follow out the two track that led down to the BSR as McDonough and the Interviewers discussed, the GMHS instead dropped down from the point above the unburned chute that dropped down into the bowl, POSSIBLY along a pre-cut P-line route through the brush.
It would make NO sense to drop down through the unburned in a chute on an unscouted route, especially with the current and expected weather conditions and fire behavior.
“POSSIBLY along a pre-cut P-line route through the brush.”
Hrrrrrmmmmmpppphhhhhbullshit
Pre scouted or being scouted and Flagged route.
P-Line I seriously doubt it. Not time spent earlyer that day.
The crew moved when March decided they could make that route work.
Follow the flagging……………….
I disagree, they had ALL day. Plenty of time. A P-line could have been accomplished in less than 2 hours.
Possibly??????????????
The above interview says McDonough said no one was working on any Escape route at least not when he was there.
I would think he would have herd discussions on that part thru Crew net even when he was at the Lookout spot.
The only escape route he had knowledge of was the two Track.’
So if they cut a Escape route what took them so long to get to BSR?????
Sorry I just ain’t Buying It.
I would also have no Doubt that any one at BSR would have herd the Chain Saws up at the Fire line GM was Building.
Sonny and Joy would have herd them as they were in the area as well
Did they see any crews in the Canyon????
The final question why would Marsh leave the crew on the hill if he already knew of the Escape route? They should have all headed out together.
We were in area pretty late day and no chain saw noise heard on two track road and did not see anyone in box canyon as I was sitting in front of it
Thank you, Joy.
A lot of people keep forgetting…
You and Sonny were OUT THERE that morning and early afternoon… in the timeframes being discussed.
Bob,
You posted: “So if they cut a Escape route what took them so long to get to BSR?????”
Don’t know. It seems like they f**ked around all day doing nothing after they finished their line. They could have hiked down to the other Safety Zone at the BSR at any time, but instead waited until the worst possible time.
And I believe they based their travel time to the BSR, which was NOW THEIR SAFETY ZONE GOAL, on the fire behavior that had been witnessing all day and NOT on the expected fire behavior that blow-torched through the bowl pushed by the outflow winds.
Experienced WFF’s in The Shrine area specifically and the YH Fire generally, said they saw explosive fire behavior and rates of spread never witnessed before by any of them with the north outflow winds pushing it south and then into Yarnell and the BSR.
You posted: “The final question why would Marsh leave the crew on the hill if he already knew of the Escape route? They should have all headed out together.”
I have ALWAYS believed that Marsh was near the BSR. He was spatially separate from the GMHS doing his DIVS A duties. McDonough says as much down below.
March was still very much connected to the GMHS through the GMHS Crew Net instead of on TAC and he even micromanaged them, especially about the Crew Carriers.
And I also believe that McDonough is/was being disingenuous and vague and evasive in his interview trying to protect his GMHS “brothers.”
“McDonough, though previously interviewed by fire investigators and the media, has NEVER ANSWERED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE ACCIDENT UNDER OATH. …. recent claims that McDonough OVERHEARD A CRUCIAL RADIO TRANSMISSION BETWEEN THE HOTSHOT CREW’S BOSSES.” Source: az central.com March 21, 2015 – ‘Yarnell Fire survivor gets book deal amid controversy’
“If the things he is going to put in the book are the things state Forestry want him to testify about, THEN IT IS DISINGENUOUS,” Paladini said. “Why didn’t we know this a year and a half ago? THIS IS STUFF WE SHOULD ALREADY KNOW.” Source: az central.com March 21, 2015 – ‘Yarnell Fire survivor gets book deal amid controversy’
“He adds that he didn’t hear a radio conversation between the two about why the crew left the black. HE DID HEAR, though, A DISCUSSION ABOUT MARSH GOING ON AHEAD TOWARD THE RANCH TO MAKE SURE THE ROUTE WAS GOOD, AND MARSH LATER TOLD STEED THEY SHOULD MAKE THEIR WAY DOWN THERE.” Source: Wildfire Today – August 31, 2015
“…he [McDonough] certainly didn’t blame Marsh for what had happened. “It was just weighing heavy on my heart … everyone was trying to blame them and I just wanted people to know that these guys were amazing men and THEY GOT CAUGHT IN A REALLY BAD SITUATION. ERIC MARSH DIDN’T KILL EIGHTEEN OTHER PEOPLE HIMSELF. That’s the way I felt like people were portraying him.” Source: Wildfire Today – August 31, 2015
““It would have been more of a reconfirmation of what I saw that day and TRYING TO MAKE SURE MY BROTHERS WERE NOT GOING TO GET BALMED FOR SOMETHING THEY DIDN’T DO. That was the biggest thing. There have been a lot of fingers pointed … I JUST WANTED TOMAKE SURE I WAS STANDING UP FOR MY BROTHERS. I wanted to make sure I wasn’t letting people tell stories that weren’t true.” Source: Wildfire Today – August 31, 2015
““I would never … if my brothers did make mistakes, I would never keep that a secret to put in a book. THERE’S NOTHING THAT IS GOING TO BE IN THERE THAT PEOPLE DON’T ALREADY KNOW.” Source: Wildfire Today – August 31, 2015
““I’m sharing the stories and the great memories I have of them, and I’m telling my stories about Yarnell – what I saw, how I felt, AND WHAT I THINK HAPPENED.” Source: Wildfire Today – August 31, 2015
So then, the YH Fire and GMHS story of what really happened – according to McDonough in other than SAIT and ADOSH interviews.
RTS
As a trained investigator I am just sitting here with a whole lot of open doors. In other words to many different things that just do not match up.
The left at 1604 and were trapped at 1642
that’s 38 min. to cover 1.5 Miles down hill open trail all the way to the Ranch. 14 to 15 Min. Max gear and all. Gravity walking down no real taxing effort.
Along with every thing I said above it dose not Compute.
Joy just said they herd no saws and saw no one in the canyon they were on the Two track. in the early afternoon. McDonough went over as lookout around noon or one. So the morning is shot and the Afternoon
has some witness’s that say not possible.
People remember strange things after people die that end up not fact. He herd chainsaws. Later he remembers
Yellow and Hard Hats ( it was my friends in the canyon they died in) The time stamp when morning early afternoon WHEN? Some people create an illusion did it really happen? TIME STAMP?
Bob,
I agree that the time frame may be off, however I just made that hike and it’s not all downhill. It has some gradual uphill, but worse yet was the downhill, fairly steep and rocky – not exactly a track. I would guess 20 to 25 minutes for the entire crew, to the dive off point, obviously more if they had any issues such as injuries.,
Still Sufficient time, but glad you took a first hand look at the canyon. I did not see any thing in the Autopsies that indicated a serious injury.
So I am still at the Brush slowing them down enough to only get to the deployment site in
38 Min. Which might have been around 15 with a trail. and another 5-8 to BSR. Once they hit the Mouth they would have been on a double time. All the smoke hanging over them on a trail I think they would have been going down that canyon double time if there was a trail.
The word is still IF.
Seems like when Donut says that Marsh didn’t kill 18 men himself, Donut is implying that there was someone else that pushed Marsh to do the unthinkable.
Like I said, POSSIBLY, and I base that on the ‘suggestive evidence’ of ‘yellows and hardhats’ seen and chainsaws heard by a Phoenix are Type I Engine FF in the morning to early afternoon hours.
Just because something is not ‘officially’ written down and documented is NOT evidence that it never occurred. Triple negative there, so how about something can actually occur and not be documented, like SO MANY things that occurred on the YH Fire that day.
Amen RTS…amen
Wait…are you seriously trying to make the argument that either Steed or Marsh or both of them send saw teams to work for an estimated two hours to create a path through that brush down that chute prior to them going down it to their deaths later in the day when they simply could have followed the two track, stayed in the black, waited for the fire to pass, or chosen another way?
At what point would this decision have been made that the fire was going to reverse, they would even want or need to go down it? I just explained to you and everyone else down below that nobody does that! I’m sorry but I do have to ask this question with all due respect…are you CRAZY?
Whoops…wrong place, I meant to ask RTS if HE is crazy, I already know about YOU….LOL,
I meant to say, I already know YOU are NOT crazy….right?
Gary,
Not crazy. Nobody does it is absolutely correct, however, it appears that the GMHS did do just that.
What they did that day defied all WFF logic and WFF common sense.
And I say their fatal move was based on Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes where they had gotten away with similar risky actions before on other fires, e.g Holloway Fire (2012).
My amen was to sentence not all the evidence is in writing yet
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on April 1, 2016 at 1:05 pm
RTS… that’s a pretty good ’roundup’ on things that McDonough said during his interview(s) with ADOSH… and some of your ‘assumptions’ appear to be ‘correct’… but based on some other ‘known’ evidence… some of your ‘assumptions’ also appear to be wrong.
Pressed for time at the moment… but here is just one of the ‘wrong’ ones…
>> RTS said…
>>
>> GMHS Lookout McDonough’s escape plan had already been discussed
>> and agreed upon. There was NO drama here. So, this strongly suggests
>> that the entire alleged dramatic rescue of GMHS Lookout McDonough by
>> the BRHS is bogus. Pure drama. The BRHS did NOT just happen to
>> come across him and rescue him because it was discussed and
>> preplanned by the BRHS and the GMHS.
You are wrong.
It is Brendan McDonough himself who has always been mistaken that the appearance of Brian Frisby at his location was because Frisby was already told to come and get him ( by someone ), or that Frisby was doing that on his own initiative or according to ‘the plan’.
That was NOT the case.
It was Brian Frisby HIMSELF who said, in no uncertain terms, that he just accidentally ‘stumbled upon’ Brendan standing in the road that day, as he was headed west to simply ‘tie in with Eric’…
Fom the followng posting just back in the previous chapter ( 19 )…
—————————————————————————————————
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-324945
WTKTT’s reply to calvin post on February 4, 2016 at 3:51 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> video m2u00271 seems to capture Frisby saying Eric decided the
>> trail that follows the ridge in the green?
Correct.
What he ( Brian Frisby ) actually says there in Hulburd video M2U00271 is…
———————————————————
+0:31 ( 1729:31 / 5:29:31 PM )
( Brian Frisby – speaking to PNF employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… in the green… ( ? that that’s the route )… and that lookout was down below… and I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… ( ? rest of ’em )… and I grabbed him… and then we got the rigs out.
———————————————————-
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> next sentence is frisby saying he found the lookout.
Yep.
Actually what Brain Frisby (clearly) says there is “I just happened to STUMBLE upon the lookout”.
That’s a CONFIRMATION ( from Frisby’s own mouth ) that it really WAS a complete ‘accident’ that he came across Brendan when he did.
——————————————————————————————
Eric going to green that Frisby went that day that I watched was not the box canyon but the trail that led to ol grader….the current staff ride and its layout is spot on except I question one certain area and also how come they stop where they did versus going up to helispot area and original GPS lightning strike fire.
Also someone stole LOVE DAD TURBYFILL rock from our memorial site area we did and few other items and rocks gone. I pulled some weeds to make sure 19 shows and never gets in the weeds and disappear because 19 should always just be.
WTKTT,
Thanks. And I think I already knew that as well and just spaced it.
The ‘elephant in the room’ there, however, is that even though Brendan McDonough has always been WRONG when he believes the reason Frisby showed up when he did is because Frisby was ( quoting Brendan ) “aware of his situation” and was was simply “coming to get him”…
…you have to do a “slowly I turned” moment here and as the question…
“Wait a minute… why DIDN;T someone already call ‘Blue Ridge’ and tell them they needed to do what they had said they would… go and get Brendan ‘if he needed them to’?
There is still NO EVIDENCE that even though both Jesse Steed and Eric Marsh were fully aware that Brendan was evacuating his lookout position because the fire was getting ‘too close for comfort’… that either one of them ever DID lift a finger to notify Blue Ridge and have them begin to ‘go and get him’ like they said they would.
Even months after the tragedy… when talking to ADOSH… Brendan still thinks that is what happened. That his ‘brothers’ were looking out for him and were ‘coming to get him’.
Even then… months later… Brendan still seemed to not be comprehending that NO ONE DID THAT… and that it really was a complete fucking ACCIDENT that Brian Frisby ‘accidentally’ “stumbled across him” ( Frisby’s own words ) that day.
ADOSH looked at all this… and they DID decide that Brendan was one of the ‘negligence based’ possible entrapments that happened in that workplace that day. They issued the most ‘fines’ they could, as allowed by law.
But Brendan STILL thinks his ‘brothers’ were all ‘looking out for him’ that day.
Not so much. Not until they HAD to.
Mackenzies video from his camera (#0888) captures Andrew Ashcraft, and Scott Norris. Both of these men were photographed (with the same camera) moments earlier carrying chainsaws. Another GMH is also in video #0888 holding a chainsaw.
Thanks to Holly for sharing what she has found.
If Marsh was out ahead, and was utilizing a sawyer to Improve the route. How many people would be there to pull the brush?
In other words, how many people were possibly with Marsh? 1, 2 4?
NONE– He went to flag a route. McDonough pretty much stated that Marsh was ahead of the crew. The sawyers were moving up to the Black rest area and I believe Steeds SZ.
Marsh was already off the mountain and scouting the route.
The Sawyers would have been the last to arrive because they were in front of the crew.
When the crew moved off the line to the Rest Area—SZ
calvin… I think Holly Neill still believes that just because those ‘Sawyers’ seem to be exiting to the RIGHT in MacKenzie’s photos… that means they were now ‘leaving the area and heading SOUTH’.
That is, at least, something she seemed to be saying she ‘believed’ way back when she first talked about all this in conjunction with John MacLean over at ‘Widlfire Today’.
I don’t think Holly Neill realizes that has been fully disproven here… and in no small part thanks to YOU.
Yes… they are seen exiting to the RIGHT as Christopher was facing NORTH and taking some of those photos of his… but that was only because they were about to just circle around BEHIND Christopher and walk on UP to where we would then see them in the OTHER photos, at that ‘resting spot’ with Steed just sitting there on that rock with his RED helmet.
They were NOT ‘leaving the area and heading south’ at that time.
They were just headed UP the slope to that ‘gathering place’ that has become known as the ‘final resting spot’.
It appears to me the Sawyers were headed south. I wonder if this could indicate the point where Marsh and Steed began disagreement. Marsh ordered the Sawyers with him, and then Steed recalled them to the rest spot. Or Marsh git to the drop off and realized no improvementsuch were needed.
Also. Could the fire crews in and around the BSR have made the cuts that Holly found?
Reply to calvin post on April 1, 2016 at 3:34 am
>> calvin said..
>>
>> It appears to me the Sawyers were headed south.
If we’re still talking about the ones in the MacKenzie photos that were taken down by the ‘notched rock’ ( which you first noticed was an ‘anchor’ landmark in almost ALL of the MacKenzie photos ), then no, they were not. They were simply going to walk UP that ‘draw’ where they had been working and directly ‘up’ to that ‘final resting spot’ where MacKenzie would then capture them again in his subsequent photos/videos at THAT location.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> I wonder if this could indicate the point where Marsh
>> and Steed began disagreement. Marsh ordered the
>> Sawyers with him, and then Steed recalled them
>> to the rest spot. Or Marsh git to the drop off
>> and realized no improvementsuch were needed.
Again… if we are still talking about the sawyers that MacKenzie photographed, there wasn’t TIME for ANY of that to happen in-between the time MacKenzie photographed them down by the ‘notched rock’… and then photographing them AGAIN just minutes later up at the ‘resting spot’.
All that being said… it remains an absolute fact ( and always will be ) that at NO time do we have photographs of ALL of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots being physically located at that ‘final resting spot’.
It has been ( and is still ) assumed they were all gathered there in that location… but some of them were simply BEHIND Christopher ( to the WEST of him ) when he took his photos and videos there… but there is no ACTUAL photographic evidence of that.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Also. Could the fire crews in and around the BSR have made
>> the cuts that Holly found?
Yes. Holly Neill is now reporting that she spoke to some subset of FFs who were in/around the BSR following the tragedy… but she still makes no specific reference to having spoken with the ‘Peeples Valley’ FFs that fellow Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon says were specifically given the assignment to ‘mop up’ some heat and (quote) “small trees and bushes” along the deployment site road the very morning after the tragedy.
Maybe she will supply more ‘detail’ about exactly WHO she did ( or didn’t ) talk to ( as in, NAMES ) if/when she ever gets around to ‘publishing’ whatever this research is she says she did over a 15 month period.
It makes no sense cuts down in the basin except those that GMHS used to make themselves a deployment area. Their mission was to protect structures as noted by D. Willis in his talk–that’s what they do–protect structures. However the sawyers may have had to cut out some brush in places where it was too thick to get through since in that area there were many areas that we had to crawl under the brush–something they would not likely do. I should think there would be some stobs found where they had to go through but above the deployment site. However, if Marsh did not have a sawyer with him he would have had to crawl under brush on his belly in a number of instances. But Marsh does not seem the type to have a man with him just to cut brush so he alone could go through. I would bet donuts that his was laying the trail for those boys since he had them partially in a sand draw–deceivingly easy but short spurts of less brush then problems again. He had them close to the boulders, but I don’t think he saw them as a possible “safe zone”.
What makes sense is that ball of pink tape burned to a circle and witnessed by Joy and John McCain when and where I picked it up on the two track was the starting point of Marsh’s trail off the two track toward the BSR which is no ranch but Helm’s residence and machine shop. We did make a small pile of rocks and put the melted ball of pink ribbon in that rock pile. It marks where they approximated where the men went down. Going down you would have to believe they scattered some so that they did not slide into or fall into the man in front. If they went down single file then that would indeed be a slow progress.
Based on my experience, hotshots always walk in a single file and in their tool order. They never scatter.
Agreed, always single file.
They could spread out so they were not bumping into each other. There were plenty of brush to hold on to as the descended. After the fire there was nothing to hold on to.
Then if they do the lock step toward the ranch the descend would be slower and the slowest man would be the speed of all.
Calvin said “Also. Could the fire crews in and around the BSR have made the cuts that Holly found?”
That’s my choice, this entire discussion was started by my expressing my opinion the cut stabs found by Holly were not made by the crew improving a route to BSR not withstanding the use of pioneer lines for a fire line to later follow which sounds nothing more to me than what has always been done.
The sawyers go first clearing the brush will the crew follows constructing the line itself and the sawyers are always working in front of the crew with their swampers and whether you call it a P line or the first stage or beginning of the fire line, it is a far different thing than using sawyers to make a trail easier for hotshots to walk down by removing brush we would have simply walked around or pushed through. Even though it was thick, had thorns and kicked nasty shit up into your eyes, nasal passages and throat.
As I already said, I think the entire concept has always been a red herring and a distraction.,
Gary I do not think they would have done more than cut an opening to get thru. Small hand line down thru the Canyon would have never held a fire.
As I am sure you know.
As you have said get from point A to B and to clarify you are right part of the time they would be using open areas. Only cutting where needed to move forward when necessary. The top part looked pretty thick but there were openings and small trails as the canyon opens up.
I think we are both thinking the same thing just no getting it across.
Yes, my point was actually sarcastic, I don’t believe anybody cut a P line or any other kind of line or trail down that drainage. They simply went down it and through the brush as best they could in a single file line without any prep work to make their trail easier, that’s my opinion.
And on the prep work you could be right.
We just do not know how much cutting or no cutting they did.
It would have been more pick and chose than any thing major.
Twisting and winding through the brush can be a slow process
finding openings and getting around obstacles like rocks.
Waiting for brush to be cut would also take longer.
That has to be how they handled getting through that brush. Cut, move through, cut again when blocked. Is that what Holly found and where was it, I would think between the two tack and deployment. No body else has noticed stobs in that area, but could be.
Would they crawl under brush to get through as a crew or would the sawyers lead the way?
And this.
While we do see Ashcraft and Norris at the final resting spot circa 1555. We do NOT see their saws. Is it possible two other Sawyers grabbed the 2 saws from Ashcraft and Norris and followed Marsh?
From a pure possibility standpoint… yes.
See above. It is still ( and will remain ) a fact that at NO time do we have any photographic evidence showing ALL of the 19 GM Hotshots fully assembled there at that final ‘resting spot’.
The only people left alive who probably know whether anything like what you are suggesting took place would be Brendan McDonough and the ( at least ) 3 Blue Ridge Hotshots who were sitting in the other 3 GM vehicles in the same timeframe as Brendan and possibly hearing more about exactly what was ‘going down out there’ over the GM intra-crew radio.
A lot of suggestions here that do not match normal Hot Shot procedures.
First that late in the day with what the fire was doing if marsh and Steed decided to open a access to the BSR. The entire crew would have moved out and followed.
Second had the team of sawyers cut clear to the BSR the normal procedure would be to wait for the crew to get there not turn back.
No reason to go back and meet the crew just to turn around and walk back with them.
Marsh flagging say to the mouth of the canyon then turning to go back and hurry the crew would not be uncommon.
Last The sawyers with the saw assignments normally do not turn over the saw and gear to some one else. Just not a common practice that was their assignment and normally 99% of the time it was always their assignment on Fire. It would be considered the pecking order or line up of the crew and pride in their pecking order with in the crew. It is the next notch down under the 2 squad bosses. Assigned Sawyers have a lot of pride as well as qualifications in there positions.
As a Division Supervisor Marsh should have taken the time during the day to scout and flag a route to the BSR if he had determined that was there SZ. That is a DIVS responsibility to establish that route and the SZ.
Or decide that it would be better to use the BLACK and notify the Crews under him of what to do for a SZ. That is one of the DIVS jobs. On this fire the Black was well burned 400 Plus Ac. next to the crew and truly the first choice for a SZ.
As a former hotshot sawyer I say no…no one ever took my saw and went off to do some work with it unless I was dead. Which never happened so no one ever took my saw and went off with it to do some work without me. They could take my saw AND me whenever they wanted to to do whatever needed to be done. All other hotshot sawyers I knew felt the same way. It is normal to bond with your saw, you spent hours sharpening it, cleaning it and caring for it in every way and no one else used it.
A few thing you don’t lend- your gun, your wife, and definitely not your saw. First thing a guy does that does not know your saw is ruin the chain by driving it into the dirt or a rock or he fucks it up by not oiling correctly or runs it with a dull chain and stretches your chain or forgets to use or mix properly two cycle oil in the gasoline and galls the piston. My saws cost me over $900 apiece. I wasn’t about to let a dummy use them, or even a guy who claimed he knew something. Would he fork over the money to replace them if he screwed them up? However I have an old craftsman saw here that I don’t give a shit about. Let him ruin that one.
I cut a ton of brush the last couple days. I had gotten rid of my 270xp in Montana thinking that living in my Jeep Wagoneer I wouldn’t be needing it. Well I repurchased the thing since getting this cabin in Yarnell. Its replacement is a 545 now–supposed to be a top of the line thing at $950 about the same price of the old 266 and 270 I used in the 80’s. Well Husky fans, my opinion went down with this saw. Two fucking holes in this Chinese carb and the adjustments are plasticized and it is now a cookie cutters nightmare. I have cut a ton of brush here in the past two days but not happy with this saw so I will watch the flea markets to get back a 266 or 270 of the old style with the single hole Irish carb and swede build with swede steel. The only time I ruined a 266 was when it fell off my 250 ford flying down the road with a load of wood at a goodly speed. I saw it bounce too many times and even used it after a replacement of a broken head and other bent parts. I wont get a Sthil since I don’t know jack shit about one and yet they might be a better product than the new Husky saw. Well what do you expect, the Chinese use slave labor and prisoners to do their work–and I think they enjoy selling the dumb ass American like Sonny a fucking piece of shit. But I won’t go for a second fucking.
When I logged you damn sure did not borrow my saw. There is about a 1000 bucks in that little money maker. Someone hang it up in felling a tree or let the tree fall on it and you would be back to jack rabbit stew. Few people know how to handle a chain saw and how to maintain it or keep it right. Too many don’t know that you need to mix two cycle oil and if they do what amount to a gallon. They can ruin a $1000 item in minutes.
Bob makes sense here from what we saw that day. Marsh always apart–flagging and ahead of the crew by almost an hour. At no time did we actually see Marsh with any of the crew and once with a mystery man Joy has in a photo –likely a boss and that was before the crew arrived.
What makes sense Marsh could and did get to the ranch and then when he saw they would be trapped rushed back to try to help them get to the ranch. He had a better viewpoint from the ranch to see what the fire was doing as it came around. He would have done better to stay at the ranch but must have figured some of his men did not know how to use the turkey roasters and thought he would be OK in one himself. A semi-heroic action after making the ignorant blunder of having his crew come down into that basin.
After talking to Ted I decided those blankets are like the damn thing that looked like a stainless canteen and about that size we used in the mine. We were shown once how to use it incase we got into radon gas–an instant killer like the wild fire. You couldn’t practice with it since you ruined a $50 item if you opened it. I wouldn’t have never been able to use the damn thing and it was an accouterment I had to wear every day I mined–a bulky piece of shit since if you did breath in radon you were dead anyway. Radon cant be seen and four miners died in a low spot where it was concentrated before anyone realized they had died of breating in that shit. You can breath it in but not our so you suffocate. Two died, two went in for rescue and died–two more figured it out and got their masks on before dragging out the bodies. I think the fire blanket is a similar thing only it gives a false sense of security–you are better off dying quickly than roasting slowly in my way of thinking.
Calvin,
You posted: “Is it possible two other Sawyers grabbed the 2 saws from Ashcraft and Norris and followed Marsh?”
This is NOT very likely because your saw is your saw. Most of the sawyers even gave them women’s names. Your saw was a very personal thing.
I gave mine a non-gender specific name…Heavy Buckin’ Bitch!
This is a general question that has bothered me for some time, but maybe Bob is the best suited to answer it given his long history of fighting wildfires in Southern California.
During all of my years (10) as a hotshot, we never used a saw team to go in front of the crew just to improve a path for the crew to hike on as is being discussed down below and has been discussed many times on this thread. In addition, I have never seen any other crew doing that either, nor have I ever heard of a crew doing that. Frankly…it seems preposterous to anyone would devote that kind of resource and time to simply improve a path.
In addition, I spent another 22 years working in all kinds of terrain including heavy brush while eradicating marijuana or on special operation drug interdiction and most of that time was spent searching for all of the above by hiking through the back county. During those 22 years, it never occurred to me to think, “Gee…I wish I had a hotshot crew saw team here to improve this path I am trying to take for my hiking pleasure.”
If the brush was that bad, and there was a specific reason to need to go into the brush and through it, that is what I did. But most of the times, I simply picked a path AROUND the heavy brush area.
My experience in this area includes my years as a very active teenager in the outdoors going hunting, hiking and camping around the Prescott area, So…let me repeat, the thought of spending an enormous amount of time and energy simply improving a path through brush is not only impractical to me, frankly I think the very idea itself is ridiculous and is something I have never been able to relate to.
If it is that bad, you will save time and a lot of work by simply choosing another path. WTF?
I can also tell you that given all of my experience in the brush of Arizona, Southern California and beyond…if I would have been standing on that overlook, looking down that arroyo or looking down that nice little Jeep trail, I would have stayed on the nice little two track even if I didn’t know it curved around to the Helms ranch jsut to see if there was a better place to go down to the valley below…even without the oncoming fire.
I for the life of my cannot wrap my head around WHY anybody would choose to go down that chute that was so choked with brush unless there was a bad guy hiding in it or a marijuana plantation in the middle of it or some really good reason to do so. It boggle my mind and what boggles my mind just as much…is sending a saw team ahead to improve it. I have seen them do that in movies with machetes in the jungle but that is it.
I think this entire discussion is…and always has been a red herring…a false trail and complete and utter BULLSHIT!
Has anyone else done it or seen it done, or heard of it being done?
P line. I think that is what rts called it
Well then…maybe RTS can enlighten me what I missed out on?
Gary,
Calvin is correct, it’s a “P-Line” and stands for Pioneer Line (I think), pretty common in the fireline construction world.
Our firelines are almost always our Escape Routes, so cutting P-lines, especially through the chaparral and heavy fuels, allows your Crew broken down in small modules of a Saw Team and some diggers, to leapfrog much easier and faster and safer.
The completed fireline follows afterwards.It’s no extra effort. It’s all about rapid and safe access.
It just needs to be shoulder width wide and with the stobs cut low and the P-line marked so that it can be located and followed in the smoke and such.
And if you construct Parallel Line across several fingers, then you cut P-Lines into the good black so you can readily access your safe areas and/or Safety Zones.
A very cool concept.
Once again, we are talking about apples and oranges. I am NOT talking about a pre-line in order for you fire line to follow,
I was asking if you sent sawyers out in front of the crew to cut a path from point A to point B, when you simply could choose to go follow point C to point B.
Is anybody talking about perhaps the crew was building a P Line down the chute as a precursor to a fire line whether it is really cool in the fire line construction world or not?
Small wonder the fires are getting bigger today, it sounds like everybody is spending all of their energy and time building lines to nowhere.
Gary, we cut P-lines all the time, especially in the chaparral, especially if it was going to be where out main line was to follow.
You posted: “Small wonder the fires are getting bigger today, it sounds like everybody is spending all of their energy and time building lines to nowhere.”
They’re getting bigger for a multitude of reasons, least of which are P-lines AND they do go somewhere, wherever your completed line is headed.
You also posted: “I think the entire concept has always been a red herring and a distraction.”
It is NOT a red herring because a red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue, so how are P-lines and/or the discussion thereof, misleading and/or distracting?
Apparently this is only a distraction to you.
No..it is a distraction to those who have a problem with comprehension, understanding what they have read. This really is getting tiresome, but I am going to try ONE more time to see if I can get you up to speed.
1, I said, “Small wonder the fires are getting bigger today, it sounds like everybody is spending all of their energy and time building lines to nowhere.” Obviously a joke…yes, I know there are many reasons fires are getting bigger other than P lines…things like GLOBAL WARMING, so thank you.
2. I didn’t start off even taking about “P” lines, others did. As it turns out a “P” or a Pioneer Line is nothing more than the beginning of a fire line cut by the sawyers that the crew will follow digging the primary fire line…big fucking deal! It took some real brainiacs to think that one up, kind of like figuring out how to call hotshot crew bosses…Superintendents. No change….new word.
3. What is a distraction are NOT “P” Lines, those are irrelevant to this discussion. What is a distraction is NEILL”S entire theory that any kind of trail was cut down that chute by the sawyers because some random stobs were found by miscellaneous people over a period of years over a widespread area.
All of that was done by NEIL and others in attempt to prove that the Marsh had his shit together and took due diligence so as not to kill his crew which is bullshit and a distraction because he did not do his due diligence.
Marsh went ahead of his crew by himself, went down that drainage, flagged it for his crew to follow, forgot that 19 men, some with heavy tools and all of them loaded with heavy gear…too much gear, could not make anywhere near as good as time as he did going down the chute. He then miscalculated how fast the fire was moving in addition to how slow his crew would move and ordered them to their deaths.
4. And NEILL and the wildland firefighting foundation she is part of should accept that before they are responsible for the deaths of more firefighters in the future by continuing to lie about what happened on the YHF in their efforts to rehabilitate the reputation of Eric Marsh who is going to go down in WF History as the Biggest Fuck Up who ever saddled up to hit the fire line.
I used to think you were smart, now I think you have been smoking too much dope….LOL, just kidding, you know what a great kidder I am.
Whatever ….
There is some consolation in big fires–except the ones that kill so many like Yarnell, Big fires, big money. Jobs for men, and lightening strikes a natural way to clean up the area. I thought Yarnell was an uncontrolled controlled burn. Just look at the extra work three fire departments got by letting that thing go. I understand Peeples valley worked Yarnell while Yarnell worked Peeples valley since there is better pay if you work out of each others district. Who lost on this one? GMHS damn heavy–so did residents. Who gained much at least in the monetary realm. You firemen know better than I but those tanker drops could not be cheap.
Too bad Marsh and Steed were not better trained and informed wild land fire fighter bosses. They would have given a finger to structure protection under the circumstances. It stands to reason this 19 burning was unnecessary. I don’t think there was a Buddist in the bunch.
Gary– Yes almost all the time two things with So. Cal. Crews.
We had 24 Inch Bow Bars ( Brush Saws ). Back then they went out in the early 80’s.
If the brush was thinner we used the 2 Brush hook Guys that were Swampers for the Saws.
Some times we had to open a path to the heal of the Fire. I would have never done what GM did. Never ever with out a doubt with a uncontrolled fire that close.
If I had to come off the mountain I would have bailed off the South side into the Dessert and headed for the Hwy. 89. Roughly 2,5 miles all in virtual safety.
To Sonny—-Even if the crew was ordered off the mountain they still had a responsibility to do it according to ALL THE SAFET RULES. A order dose not eliminate your responsibility to follow the rules. To evaluate your situation and act accordingly. The other thing herd over the radio the crew was asked if they could come to Yarnell and the reply was no we are in the black. So who other than Marsh
would have gave them that order. Steed still had his options but caved to March.
Marsh and steed killed the Crew regardless of any other requests, orders, threats or
Reengagements. Been here before LCES, The 10 and 18 a Safe move plan that has no percentages of outcome other than 100%. Safe any thing less is a no go.
They wrote #11 for a reason Look Out UNBURNED FUEL BETWEEN YOU AND THE FIRE. Fire fighters have died over and over for not taking that one watch out seriously. Good HS Crews say NO when the request is un safe always have always will. GM made an exception and Died with all the others. Extreme conditions in Brush are no place to push the rules or ignore them. I personally have seen Brush Fires take out 10,000 Ac. in 10 minuets, you just can not get out of the way, so don’t put your self in the way.
Back to the Powers way one foot in the black. bring the Black with you it is the safest place on the whole dam mountain. You will never need a Fire Shelter.
Well…that doesn’t answer my question and I used a bow bar as a sawyer as well in brush country. That is what I was using on the Battlement Creek Fire.
And we would cut a path to get to the heal of the fire as well, that is the same thing as a dope grow or a bad guy in the middle of the brush…I reason to go there.
I am talking about cutting a path from A to B when you could simply choose another path to B…say C to B, or D to B, or E to B, or F to B, etc.
Oh…and we used Swedish Brush Hooks also, there is a lot of brush below the Rim in Arizona and lots of other states, like the lower elevation in Colorado. I still never cut or saw anyone cutting a path from A to B, I went around it or through it if I had to, but only if I had to.
I was talking Real Man Southern Cal Brush Hooks.
The ones that cut through 4 inch wood. Not Swedish 4 inch weed whackers. I forgot Arizona did not use those Right????
Bob,
The Prescott hotshots emblem features 2 brush hooks crossed in reference to their use of the tool in the past so I’m going to speak for them & say at least one crew in Arizona used them. Type 1 since 1973.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/prescott/home/?cid=stelprdb5343404
Woodsman
A dig at Gary’s Swedish Brush hook.
But then we from Southern Calif. Never thought any one else could use them. And we always said so.
Bob,
I know. I don’t have a dog in this fight…just having a good time with it. I did remember Prescott IHC’s emblem though.
Thanks for being a ‘bring the black with you’ advocate like me. You are a wise old manly socal brush hook swinger!
Woodsman
Well…you are probably right about that. It took a lot of practice to learn how to use one and I always felt like I was one swing away from amputating half of my foot. I hated those things and avoided them if I could.
The worst mistake was using them like a Ax.
The are a swing and pull tool that is what the hook is designed for.
As RTS said the bigger ones with the strap at the end of the flat run could be 12 inches long and the metal width was narrower really, really able to sharpen them like a knife and they were
dangerous in the wrong hands. I could use one but I could never master it like some FF could.
I guess I don’t know…are you saying the brush hooks we used were Magina Brush Hooks? OMG What does a So Cal brush hook look like? Will it fit in a bread box? I am going to have to Google that one.
Please post a link to a photo of a Manly Brush Hook so I can compare it to a Mangina Brush Hook.
Never mind, I already looked it up, my mistake…we did not use Mangina Brush Hooks we used Manly Brush Hooks
http://www.hatchetsandaxes.com/brush-axe-swedish
We used these, they call them Surveyor’s Brush Hooks…I guess they don’t know they are called Real Man Southern Cal Brush Hooks. You should write them a letter.
http://www.engineersupply.com/Sokkia-Surveyor-Bush-Hook-813010.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=ES2283&gclid=CJzH_raM7MsCFQeRfgodAgAOcg
Now you may know the difference.
Ditch bank Brush Hook???????????????
No…we didn’t use Ditch Bank Brush Hooks, we used these,
http://www.engineersupply.com/Sokkia-Surveyor-Bush-Hook-813010.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=ES2283&gclid=CJzH_raM7MsCFQeRfgodAgAOcg
and if anyone knows 4 inch wood, it’s Bob…
You would to if you have been in California 20 Ft. brush.
4 to 8 inch Bases.
Bob,
Thanks! You’re a good man! Seriously.
Woodsman
Gary,
They call those Strap Hooks, very efficient, compared to Club Hooks, without the strap.
This “conversation” has really veered off path, I don’t actually care all that much about brush hooks, I was asking about something cutting a path to walk down…oh fuck it never mind.
Looking at the fade video I would say the first half of the travel off the Saddle was really thick brush. Again one person could make better time than 18 crewman.
RTS called it a P line.
I called it cut a quick path with one saw. a simple passage route.
Look at the last part of the Picture from the Fade from the Deployment site to the Saddle about the only thing that could get through that was a Jack Rabbit,
I didn’t ask what it is called, Calvin already told me RTS called it that. Is there an echo on this thread? I asked IF YOU DID IT to simply get from point A to say…point B?
And my answer was yes and very fast I might add we were not cutting line Gary.
Hhhhrrrruuumjbullshit!
OK, OK…you guys were the Fastest!
Now…I know that if all of the stories are true about the crew’s commitment to physical conditioning under Jess Steed are to be believed, it did exceed what I was accustomed to but still?
I always did what I needed to do, but I really bought into the, “Never Stand When You Can Sit, Never Sit When You Can Lie Down, Never Stay Awake When You Can Sleep, Never Run When You Can Walk, Always Eat Whenever You Food Is Offered Because You Never Know When It Will Be Offered Again And Never Lose Altitude On a Slope Unless You Must Because You Are Just Going To Have To Hike Up There Again and Again…Repeat” concept.
Be like water and take the path of least resistance. Stay on the two track…know what I mean?
For one thing, weeks of dust, pollen and only the Creator knows what else settles on every branch and leaf and in every crook and cranny in that shit and it all gets kicked up into your eyes, nasal passages and throat when you force your way through it., AND it takes longer. So I repeat…WTF. Cut a path through it with a saw team, that would take WAY too long for any practical purpose.
I mean…it’s not that I was lazy per se, I just learned the hard way I needed to pace myself so I could be like a coiled rattlesnake and STRIKE when I had to…know what I mean? SSSSSTRIKE!
Brandon mentioned the two track winds around and down above the ranch and he is correct. They must have scouted it earlier or someone did and knew. However that was a narrower chute than the basin and even thicker in brush. It burned out clean but already when we hiked down it lately someone had been cutting out brush to get through. It made it a bit easier to get through.
That trek if they had taken it went from where they went down up a steep incline then down and up again another steep incline, then around a large boulder hill. It was and is hard to discern the path since once on top the trail begins to disappear when you approach the hill to go around before descending. If you do not know the path you would easily loose it. It is then a steep down slope that winds and finally takes you just above the cattle pond above the Helms. There is another about three or four hundred yards to the bomb puff area of the of the Helms. Puff not proof–tires burned on the edge of that area so it might have been the tennis court protection idea. The approximation of time difference if they went that way would be about the same and either way they would have been cut off if they only got as far as they did going the basin way. I don’t know if the two track and the area that must have been dozed out down toward the cattle pond were done at the same time–likely the 60’s, maybe 68 or 66 we are told a wild fire was worked. But you would think the narrow canyon was earlier since it was so badly grown over and eroded and hard to follow. But that could be due to the narrowness of canyon where water run off was funneled down the trail.
I truly believe we would have been burned as well had we taken that route. It was too risky with the brush and fire change possibilities–though we did have a good head start–too bad they had only to top out the Weavers and drop off the west side but once they committed to the ranch and made the basin there was not hope to turn back.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on March 31, 2016 at 9:29 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Woodsman,
>> You posted below regarding PFD Willis’ time on the GMHS:
>> “When you say Willis did well as a hotshot, can you describe in what way(s) he did well?”
>>
>> As far as I recall, he worked as a Crewmember and maybe even a Squad Boss
>> and even as a Trainee >> Crew Boss.
>> I recall he was interested in leadership, both learning and sharing.
>>
>> “Did you work on fires that Willis was working as a hotshot and witness his performance?”
>>
>> Yes, some, but I don’t remember when or which ones.
>>
>> “I’m having a hard time envisioning …”
>>
>> How come you’re having a hard time? Maybe because you don’t want to believe it?
In Darrell Willis’ first ADOSH interview… he was being asked how Granite Mountain would
handle ‘disputes’ over ‘assignments’… and that’s when he said that he had witnessed
that himself because he (quote) “rolled with them three or four times”.
He wasn’t pressed for any details… but he did say “three or four times”.
Just enough to make you an expert in Wildland Firefighting, right?
This is also the part of Willis’ testimony where, despite all his “God, Guts and Glory”, and
“They died with HONOR” crap that he spewed at that first press conference at the
deployment site… Darrell Wills admits that he, himself, was ( his word ) “SHOCKED”
to discover they had all laid down to die in a place that was 30×30 and not survivable.
From Darrell Willis’ first ADOSH interview on August 19, 2013…
——————————————————————————————-
2135 A: I – I’ve been – you know, I’ve – I’ve rolled with them three or four times, and
2136 I’ve seen – they’ll talk about it. They’ll talk about things, and they come to
2137 consensus. And it’s – it’s – the number 20 guy can bring up an issue, or number
2138 1. It doesn’t matter. They can bring it up and, uh, they – that guy will – number
2139 20 won’t get, uh, you know, uh, any dis- uh, you know – it – he won’t get
2140 ragged on or anything. It’s just – it’s just kinda how they operate. They’re
2141 cohesive.
2142
2143 Q: Mm-hm.
2144
2145 A: They get through it. I – I can – you know, and I made this statement and I’ll
2146 make it again that, uh, I have total trust in those guys. And they had to have
2147 that, because there’s no way that you’re gonna have 19 guys that weren’t
2148 seeing the same thing end up in a 30 by 30 area deploying shelters. It just
2149 doesn’t happen. Somebody’s gonna run. Somebody’s not gonna stay with it.
2150
2151 Q: All right.
2152
2153 A: It – it – uh, they were disciplined and cohesive. Uh, that’s the shocking part to
2154 me. That – you know, there’s been a lot of entrapments, there’s been a lot of
2155 near misses and stuff and there’s – you know, you look at South Canyon.
2156
2157 Q: Mm-hm.
2158
2159 A: People escape. Some people got out of there.
———————————————————————————
That’s correct. He said those things and much more. Never said I agreed with him. These 19 men that died, were like his own sons. He was merely defending their actions, even though it clearly exhibited Groupthink and all its insidious results.
It’s been a while, so I’ve lost track.
Would someone be able to give an update on what is going on in Yarnell with the State Park and memorial (commission minutes have a long lag getting out), site accessibility, and the Yarnell Hill staff ride that was supposed to be part of the state forestry settlement? Also, just what does “deeded to the families” mean?
This weekend our local VFDs will take rt130 in Tierra Amarilla, NM; it will be interesting to see if we get a Yarnell discussion segment.
It’s possible to be a hero…and at the same time make a bad choice or risk.
Besides the info from some former GMH shots, other FF, and family interviewed by Kyle Dickman for his book, how thoroughly were Eric Marsh’s prior management decisions chronicled?
Pat has been a long while—one of the starters to IM- welcome back
I am going to like WWTKTT chime in on details here but strange only Brandon Bunch and Renan Packer was the only willing to contribute to the book-
what about Mando; Philip Maldonado? Shane Arollado? Matthew Barton? Scott Bowers? Austin Carmen? Matt DeMenna? Brady Higgs? Daniel Loghry? Elliot Logan? Sean Balboa? Ian Owen? Dan Fraijo? Carl Matthes? Geoff Phelan? Adrian Magallanez? Alan Sinclair? Cory Moser? Jeremy Sarge? Matt Mayhall? Nate Seets? Chase Madrid? Justin Kaoni? Tom Cooley?Shone Do? Daniel McCarty?
could of been a powerful book with more alumnis
Pat we are glad you are back and it is a good time. Tax payers are funding a 13 vehicle stop off to a trail that starts from half way down Yarnell Hill from Yarnell and winds its way up the steep mountain to the top of the Weavers. The trail is being done by volunteers while the taxpayer is footing the $670,000 parking lot. My understanding is that you will need the local Yarnell Fire Chief’s permission to use the trail since tax payer money did not pay for that. But at least you will be able to look at the trail from the parking lot since tax payer money paid for that. There might be a toll fee to park–nothing on that yet.
The local fire chief is an EMT so make sure he checks your heart out before you go up. That is a son of a bitch hike with much steepness and distance. There are shorter ways to go but you need to be in the know and have a few permissions to cross private lands. State land in Arizona also requires a permit so also have a land walking permit which you can get on line for $20 else I think it is $500 and up to 6 months in jail for that misdemeanor. So don’t get caught by a game warden or sheriff type or BLM land man–they have to do their duty and write you up.
Common sense goes a long ways here. Water, snake bite kit (I carry a nice pocket knife–is that legal these days?) a phone in case you need a helicopter to get you out. Be fore warned a copter ride to the closest Emergency Unit for heart problems runs close to $40,000. That one is in Prescott–for other injuries like broken legs from falls off the boulders on the trail might be some cheaper since the hospital in Wickenburg has doctors sufficient to do that. Don’t mean to scare anyone at all but the facts are facts. Still people climb Mt. Everest without the slightest idea of how to survive in that type environment. If you watch the movie Everest, you will see the similarities to the Yarnell tragedy. Those guys were paying $60,000 a pop to go to the top, and the guide that directed the party was negligent in several ways that ended up in the deaths of several green horn as well as professional mountain climbers. We saw that with the guides here in the Yarnell so called incident as well.
So keep us posted, we are open ears and happy to see some more interested in how things turned out so sour at Yarnell.
Reply to Pat Byrnes post on March 30, 2016 at 11:37 am
>> Pat Byrnes said…
>>
>> It’s been a while, so I’ve lost track.
>> Would someone be able to give an update on what is going on in
>> Yarnell with the State Park and memorial (commission minutes
>> have a long lag getting out), site accessibility, and the
>> Yarnell Hill staff ride that was supposed to be part of the state
>> forestry settlement? Also, just what does “deeded to the families” mean?
The 360 acres that constitutes the “South half of Section 9, Township 10N, Range 05W” was NOT ‘deeded to the families’.
That land was ‘purchased’ by the Arizona State Parks department, and on June 30, 2016, is scheduled to officially open to the public as the “Yarnell Hill Fire Memorial State Park”.
The “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” that was established by the Arizona Legislature to manage the $500,000 also allocated by the Legislature will ‘disappear’ at the end of this year… and from that point on… the ‘Park’ will be completely managed by the Arizona State Parks Board.
The last official ‘meeting’ of this ‘Yarnell Hill Site Board’ was way back in October of 2015.
The official place where the meetings were being ‘announced’, and where Arizona Law required the meeting Agendas and Minutes to be posted is still here…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
It hasn’t been updated since October 23 of 2015, and it even still says that’s when the ‘next’ meeting of the Board is supposed to be.
For many months, this PUBLIC Board continued to violate Arizona Open Meetings laws and they were refusing to publish the ‘minutes’ of their PUBLIC meetings. ( Law requires publication of meeting minutes within 72 hours, even if just unapproved ‘draft’ form ).
As the months went by… they incrementally got around to actually ‘catching up’ and publishing most of the minutes of most of the meetings… but even as of this writing they remain in violation of Arizona Law by not publishing the ‘minutes’ of their last meeting, 5 months ago, on October 23, 2015.
At the meeting just prior to the October 23, 2015 one, Board Member Amanda Marsh presented the results of a mysterious ‘informal polling’ she (supposedly) conducted with (supposedly) ALL of the ‘family members’ to get their ‘votes’ about whether the actual deployment area at this PUBLIC park should ever be open to the PUBLIC, or not.
There is NO documentation on how Amanda Marsh might have gone about doing this ‘polling’ of the family members… or what the actual results were.
All we see in the minutes of that meeting is that after hearing from Ms. Marsh… the Board decided to put it to a VOTE ( amongst themselves ) whether or not to ‘restrict access’ to parts of the new PUBLIC park, or not.
That VOTE went 8 to 2 ( only 10 members of the Board were present ) in FAVOR of ‘restricting access’ to some parts of the park.
Oddly enough.. the only 2 dissenting votes came from the 2 most important FIREMAN on the Board itself. Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney and former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.
Both Whitney and Willis were AGAINST imposing any ‘access restrictions’ on the PUBLIC… but the small subset of family members that WANTED these ‘restrictions’ held forth in that vote and, as far as we know, that was the ‘final decision’ on that.
The rest of the minutes from that meeting see them instructing the architects and designers of the site to now go back and REDESIGN parts of what had already been agreed on in order to accomplish the new ‘public access restrictions’ the Board had just voted 8-2 to impose.
We still can’t see the minutes of the LAST meeting they had, following this ‘vote’, so there is no final word on exactly what kind of REDESIGN took place for the site to accomplish these ‘access restrictions’ that the subset of family members wanted.
It would APPEAR that yes… the public WILL be allowed to ‘come down off the high ridge’ and get NEAR the actual ‘deployment site’… but the PUBLIC will not be allowed to go near the actual ‘markers’… and the site was redesigned to prevent that from happening.
The PUBLIC will also, apparently, not be allowed to get near enough to the white marble-cross markers to actually leave any ‘mementos’, and part of the REDSIGN was to make sure there is some ‘other designated area’ for the PUBLIC to do that sort of thing.
Keep in mind… that in the last ‘minutes’ we can see… this area where the ‘markers’ will be was STILL being referred to by some members of this Board as “the gravesites”.
That was actually IN WRITING in the ‘minutes’ of the meeting.
As if some members of this PUBLIC Board will still believing, in their minds, that this is a CEMETERY and that the Granite Mountain Hotshots are actually BURIED there.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
** STAFF RIDE(S)
The ‘Staff Ride’ that Arizona Forestry was to organize, as part of the settlement with those 12 family members represented by Prescott attorney Patrick McGroder is under-way.
There has already been an ‘Alpha’ test of this ‘Yarnell Staff Ride’ back on February 18, 2016, with 22 or so ‘selected participants’. The next scheduled ‘test’ of this ‘Staff Ride’ is a ‘Beta’ test happening next week, April 4 and 5, and THIS is the one that has only ‘family members’ as the ‘participants’. There will be a ‘Charlie’ test at the end April and a few more ‘test runs’ before this Staff Ride has it’s ‘opening day’ on June 30, 2016… the same day that the new Arizona ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial State Park’ is scheduled to be ‘open to the public’.
Arizona Forestry couldn’t obtain permission from landowners to gain ‘access’ to the new State Park from Yarnell itself… to the ‘trailhead’ to the new start park starts down on the part of Highway 89 that leads south out of Yarnell… and then includes a VERY STEEP 2 mile hike across Arizona State Trust Lands which winds up on the high ridge, near the spot where the Granite Mountain Hotshots left the two-track and descended into that blind box canyon full of explosive, unburned fuel.
That ‘trail’ is being built by vounteers from the “Amercian Conservation Experience” group ( ACE ).
The ‘parking lot’ at the trailehead is being built by a private contractor.
Arizona State Representative Karen Fann is on the “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board”, and the contract to build the parking lot went to her BROTHER’S constructions company ( Fann, Inc. ). It was originally supposed to contain 40 parking ‘stalls’ but will now only have about 13.
The COST for the ‘parking lot’ at the trailhead was right around $670,000.
That’s $170,000 dollars MORE than even the original allocation of $500,000 from the Arizona Legislature for the entire ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial’ project.
No one really knows where that additional $670,000 just for a ‘parking lot’ is coming from, or whose ‘budget’ it is being taken from. The funds *might* be just being ‘absorbed’ by Arizona Department of Transportation ( ADOT )… but wherever it’s coming from… it’s an additional $670,000 of taxpayer money on top of the $500,000 already set aside to purchase the land and develop the ‘park’ itself.
>> Pat Byrnes also said…
>>
>> This weekend our local VFDs will take rt130 in Tierra Amarilla,
>> NM; it will be interesting to see if we get a Yarnell discussion segment.
>>
>> It’s possible to be a hero…and at the same time make a bad choice or risk.
Of course.
>> Besides the info from some former GMH shots, other FF, and family
>> interviewed by Kyle Dickman for his book, how thoroughly were
>> Eric Marsh’s prior management decisions chronicled?
Basically “not at all”.
Whoever has ‘insights’ into that ( dozens and dozens of people that used to work for Marsh and that GM organization ) still isn’t talking.
It remains totally mysterious that with SO many Granite Mountain Hotshot ‘alums’ out there… that NONE of them have ever really had anything to say about what it was like to work for Darrell Willis, Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain organization.
No one has really had anything to say about it… either good, bad or ugly.
That’s still really WEIRD.
FYI – I spent some time looking at the ACE website because I was very curious who would “volunteer” to do that job. The fact is they are really not volunteers at all. They are more like indentured servants but they still cost money.
1. After they complete about 900 hours of volunteer work they get about $3000.00 in an educational grant.
2. They get a daily stipend to pay for food, essentials, spending money and housing although right now they are camped out so housing is probably minimal as long as they can keep them camping out.
3. I don’t believe the people who run ace are volunteers at all. It is probably a not-for-profit but as we have all learned over the past few years many of these not-for-profits pay themselves healthy if not exorbitant salaries and they often enjoy many perks like meetings on the beach in Hawaii and expensive cars to drive.
4. Hells Bells…that web site they have isn’t FREE. There is a lot of money there that is coming from somewhere.
So…I don’t think we should let ourselves be fooled…SOMEBODY is paying a lot of money to have that trail built. How much it is, where it is coming from and who is paying it is probably very cloudy which is just the way the Queen of Quid Pro Quo Karen Fann wants it.
I mean c’mon, how much do those vans they are driving cost per month AND per mile plus maintenance, or how about the equipment they are using, is all of that “volunteering” as well?
Indentured servants are just the kind of people who asshole republicans love to hire to do their shit work. Let me explain to YOU people what is wrong with this country. Those people working on that trail are college kids who want to enter the middle class just like their parents did, but they can’t even afford college today. The State of Arizona COULD be paying them the Arizona minimum wage, but no…they want to see just how cheap they can get someone to do that work for with the promise of a bright future that will never come for most of them.
My dear wife and I fit smack dab in middle of the ideal republican voters. We are old, white, affluent, from conservative small towns with religious upbringings in conservative families. I worked in LE my wife is a nurse, and I am a retiree and my dear could is she wanted to.
I have figured out the republicans are destroying the middle class of this country and they have almost finished giving almost everything to the very rich, what? the Walden Family of Wal-Mart have as much as the bottom 40% of all other people in this country and it goes on and on. And that was BEFORE Donald Trump, who has tremendous support in Arizona, took over the Republican Party!
The only good news…is that the Republican Party is going to get slaughtered in the national elections. There is going to be carnage for that party unlike anything they have seen since the Great State of Arizona put Barry Goldwater forward as the republican nominee. And then maybe somebody can start to turn this country around and maybe when building the next white elephant in Arizona, the laborers will at least be paid minimum wage.
I have my piece of the pie and I lived the American Dream, how is it going for you and your kids?
And then there is my good friend Bob…bless his heart, who I love like a misinformed, healthier, smarter and better looking and older brother. He retired and then worked until he was 69 years old (as a very healthy, robust, and athletic man whose erections and mind worked better than 9 out of 10 men half his age) for a wage just barely above the minimum wage as a part time employee so they didn’t have to pay him any benefits and he didn’t earn anything towards a 401k or any kind of pension and he thinks he worked for a professional well run law enforcement department.
I am used to Wal-Mart, Walgreens and that idiot who makes better pizza with better ingredients paying their employees starvation wages and keeping them under 40 hours a week so they don’t have to pay them any benefits while they enjoy record breaking profits and they have been squealing like stuck pigs ever since Obama Care (thanks Obama) was introduced because they might have to give a little something back to the people who make their businesses successful.
I don’t know about you Bob…but when I call for HELP from my local police department, I don’t want to get a part time employee who is a retiree who is working without benefits for a wage they could almost match at the local McDonald’s unless it is you and that is not happening. If I want that, I will go ask the door greater at Wal-Mart for help and since you aren’t coming to my aid, I want the next best thing…a professional law enforcement officer who works for a professional law enforcement department.
Preach it brother!!!!
Okay…I will. What my good friend Virile Bob doesn’t understand is that I am his advocate as well. He should have been paid at least $40,000 per year plus full benefits with a good dental plan to to do that job. Anytime anybody straps on a gun and goes to work or picks up a briefcase and goes to teach our children they should be making a living wage, even in Bumfuck, Idaho.
If Bob would have had a minimum level of benefits…he would now be retired a second time. Bob should have earned his second retirement after doing 10 years. That is what the State of New Mexico does and like I said, they always compete with Arizona and Mississippi for the bottom of the pile.
I will bet you a million bucks that the asshole’s who cooked that scheme up are as follows;
1. A Republican Sheriff and
2. A Republican County Commissioner and
3. A Republican Board of County Supervisors and
4. An overwhelming Republican voter base.
Using part time commissioned law enforcement officers at a low wage without benefits is what fucks law enforcement up. That is what they do in third world countries and that is why there is and always has been a problem with bribes and corruption in law enforcement.
And by the way, just to show you that my Bachelor of Science Degree in law enforcement really paid off, I am going to share something I learned in college and it is just about the only specific thing I do remember learning. The word “cop” comes from our country’s English heritage meaning to steal something.
To cop something is to steal it…right? We all know that, but did you know that is why cops are called cops? That is why I hate the word cop and never use it and I am offended when cops call themselves cops. It is kind of like using the “N” word and they don’t even understand how demeaning, derogatory and insulting that word really is.
You missed the main point I could have gone to the Full Post.
I did not want Full Time work RETIRED OK
I was being Paid at the Deputy 1 Wage.
Certified Level 1 reserve Officers are Trained Idaho State Post
Many Sheriff offices and City Offices establish a Reserve program. Twin Falls County Had 14 Reserves when I started Five were level 1 and 2 of us were very active. Their Deputy turnover was High because of Pay and Benefits They needed Level 1’s to cover shifts Patrol and Jail. Being retired I was always available. It was a Hoot and crazy to.
As a part timer you do not get retirement which by the way was a peace of shit in TF County. They did not get Percy till this year. Also my Fed. Health Insurance was far superior to their Plan.
I was happy to make what I was making. It bought me a few toys as well as my Wife’s Toys. A new truck, A couple of new horses a Camp Trailer. Not to mention all the Practice and Pistols I bought and was furnished. Along with the AR15 Practice. Shot a lot of free Ammo.
You missed my point, you said, “Their Deputy turnover was High because of Pay and Benefits They needed Level 1’s to cover shifts Patrol and Jail.”
And no…I didn’t understand you were like a substitute teacher except working as a substitute officer…too weird. And yes…I do know about being a Reserve Officer, I was one all through college. But reserve officers always worked with full time officers on patrol.
Whoops got lost, “You missed my point, you said, “Their Deputy turnover was High because of Pay and Benefits They needed Level 1’s to cover shifts Patrol and Jail.”
They should make their benefits better!
Certified level 2 Reserves worked with regular officers.
Certified level 1 Reserves were fully certified to Patrol, Transport, work the jail all by them self’s we spent 300 hours ride time to certify Patrol after POST. My lowest year doing Patrol was 400 HRS.
My highest was 1000 Hrs. over a 17 year period
That’s what I put in on top of Court security and Transport Prisoners.
They did about 12 years ago they raised the pay. the Health Insurance is the same and they just went to Persy after a long battle.
They are comparable to the rest of the State which is still way less than most of the states around Idaho and some city’s.
Well…it sounds like being a Level 1 Reserve would have been very cool and a good way to make money on the side.
Your situation as it turns out was a bad example to use in my passionate plea for everyone to kick the asshole republicans out of office so we start rebuilding a middle class again so we can keep this country great…not make it great again.
I wish I wan’t so old so I could move to Bumfuck Idaho and get certified and go kick some ass with you.
Give em’ three from the ring and nine from the sky knee drop em’ and make em’ do the funky chicken…LOL. Just kidding. I;m such a kidder.
I love you Gary
I Went to work at 50 for The Sheriffs Department.
Reason 1 I had only 14 quarters of SS I built that up to over 40 and at 65
I also went on SS as a additional Supplement to my income.
I also was working 25 t0 35 hours a week at the starting wage of a Deputy. 16.00 per hour. In Idaho that ant bad Part Time.
So were a couple of others.
I was certified and trained just like you—–Maybe better those Federal
BLM Law BOYS Sage brush rangers. OK enough Poking each other.
I might add the last 4 years I also worked for a Small city here in the County Part Time. The Chief asked me at 64 to come help them back up there officers time offs. Those were 1 officer shifts 12 hours your in charge you make the decisions you make the arrests I averaged 4 shifts a month. I also helped set up a reserve program for them and ran that.
I pulled the pin on my Police carrier at 69. I am slower today but don’t bet any money you could take me down.
Older Officers sometimes connect better with the community. they also have a better head on their shoulders when it comes to conflicts.
Enough said I had what I call a great second carrier.
Super Rooster Powers said to Ye Old Magnificent Bastard::
” I am slower today but don’t bet any money you could take me down.”
Well boys, you both know there’s only one way to solve this.
I’ll bring the ointment, oxygen and ice packs. Make sure you boys warm up & stretch really well.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You posted below regarding PFD Willis’ time on the GMHS:
“When you say Willis did well as a hotshot, can you describe in what way(s) he did well?”
As far as I recall, he worked as a Crewmember and maybe even a Squad Boss and even as a Trainee Crew Boss.
I recall he was interested in leadership, both learning and sharing.
“Did you work on fires that Willis was working as a hotshot and witness his performance?”
Yes, some, but I don’t remember when or which ones.
“I’m having a hard time envisioning …”
How come you’re having a hard time? Maybe because you don’t want to believe it?
Wrong spot but OK.
You corrected me and told me that Willis WAS in fact a hotshot who served on the GMIHC BUT you also added that he did well. OK.. Tell me why you believe he did well. What did he do well?
Woodsman
Woodsman,
He did well physically. I thought he learned more about wildland firefighting coming from the Municipal world, and maybe he just got suckered back into that mindset.
I don’t know how he did with the other Hot Shot duties, knowledge, and skills.
Woodsman I prefer Night Sticks at Dawn—–
I posted about Dr. Leroy Anderson–tells me those men were ordered down–I was at the Yarnell PO when he said that. I do hope NO EXIT gets hold of him–he is concerned and wants them to. Since he is part of the business you and Norb do I hoped you fellows would get hold of him. He wants to talk and talks firemen lingo–I think he might have been in law enforcement also. So I will leave that one to you and fellows that want to talk to him. He has even written a synopsis of things and published some of it. A no bull shit guy.
Sonny… tell him he’s free to post anything he wants right here as part this ongoing discussion.
Bob, You are one in ten thousand…at the least.
Followup…
I wonder if it dawned on anyone involved with this Yarnell Memorial State Park that if they were willing ( and able ) to spend a whopping $670,000 for just a parking lot with only 13 stalls… and almost 2 miles away from the deployment site…
…then wouldn’t that kind of money have gone a LONG way towards solving the original ‘problem’ of none of the land owners with property adjacent to the new State Park parcel giving enough of a crap about the effort to work out easements and/or access from Yarnell itself?
Arizona Parks got the entire 360 park parcel for a ‘fair value’ of only $304,000.
The parking lot with only 13 stalls and 2 miles away is costing MORE than TWICE what they paid for the entire frickin’ State Park land itself.
Something is SERIOUSLY WRONG with that picture.
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/mar/30/firehouse-subs-awards-19800-grant-cyfd/
WTKTT A couple of questions for you on your video crossfade.
The smoke pictures are from the helicopter, What was the date of the map you used from goggle earth for the location info?
Was the Google earth close to the date of the Fire?
I saw a 4-2013 date on the top.
The reason I am asking is there are several trails visible on the Map some would be animal but some also look hand made. also some closer to the ranch look like 2 track or 4X4 trails.
Can you zoom a closer look at the deployment site to see what trails if any are there and what could be possibly man made.
I think you can see where I am going —–Would like to see if the private property owners were maintaining any types of trails in the location below the Deployment site.
If the Goggle was just before the burn April 2013 it might revel more than you were first looking for
Or maybe not.
I still contend—-HAD THERE BEEN A CUT TRAIL TO THE BSR FROM THE SADDLE THE CREW SHOULD HAVE MADE THAT DISTANCE IN 10 TO 15 MIN. NOT THE 40 IT TOOK TO THE DEPLOYMENT SITE.
I BELEIVE THEY CUT TRAIL AS THEY WENT FOLLOWING THE FLAGGING. A BUSH HERE AND THERE AND PROBABLY A LOT OF BRUSH FROM THE SADDLE TO THE MORE GENTAL SLOPE IN THE CANYON.
Reply to Bob Powers post on March 30, 2016 at 7:31 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT A couple of questions for you on your video crossfade.
>>
>> The smoke pictures are from the helicopter, What was the date of the
>> map you used from goggle earth for the location info?
>> Was the Google earth close to the date of the Fire?
>> I saw a 4-2013 date on the top.
** THE SHORT ANSWER
The date for the satellite imagery in that video was 4/28/2013… just 62 days before the tragedy.
** THE LONG ANSWER
ABC15-clip-18-crossfade
Footage taken from Helicopter Air15 over Yarnell on June 30, 2015.
Includes ‘crossfades’ from actual video to equivalent Google-Earth ground imagery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSYpnPMfPmc
That ‘bar’ you are seeing in the upper left corner of the ‘fly-around’ part of the video is what is called the ‘Historical Imagery’ slider bar in Google Earth. Slide the bar left or right and the entire view changes to either earlier or later satellite imagery.
Here’s the complete set of satellite imagery that Google ‘offers’ for this part of Arizona…
11/06/2015 ( November 6, 2015 )
01/04/2014 ( January 4, 2014 )
04/28/2013 ( April 28, 2013 ) ( Satellite imagery from just 2 months before the tragedy )
05/14/2011 ( May 14, 2011 )
09/09/2010 ( September 9, 2010 )
04/01/2009 ( April 1, 2009 )
06/20/2007 ( June 20, 2007 – Color – First imagery showing the BSR )
06/28/1997 ( June 28, 1997 – Black and White satellite imagery No BSR yet )
The DATE of the imagery I was using in Google Earth for the ‘fly-arounds’ was, in fact, the 4/28/2013 satellite imagery… taken just 2 months ( 62 days ) before the tragedy.
I used that imagery on purpose for this, since it shows the vegetation as it was just before the tragedy… and what was there for the FIRE to ‘consume’.
And as you can see from this set of satellite imagery just 2 months before the tragedy… there were literally great ‘pools’ of thick vegetation for the fire to consume, and Granite Mountain decided to hike right THROUGH one of those ‘pools’, in that box canyon.
It’s also easy to see that once that fireline got around those ‘mounds’ out there in the middle bowl… there were also these thick ‘pools’ of vegetation sort of ‘flowing’ directly to the box canyon… which is exactly what that fireline did. It ‘flowed’ right to the mouth of that canyon.
>> Bob Powers also asked…
>>
>> The reason I am asking is there are several trails visible on the Map
>> some would be animal but some also look hand made. also some
>> closer to the ranch look like 2 track or 4X4 trails.
Yes.
In ALL of the satellite imagery available for that location ( see the list above )… there is, in fact, what appears to be a visible ‘hiking trail’ that was just south of where the dozer line was going to be ‘pushed’ on the night of June 30, 2013.
It leads from the western perimeter of the Boulder Springs Ranch and through that last bit of thick vegetation there just to the west of it, and out into a ‘clearer’ area. It appears to have been just a ‘hiking trail’ so that you could get from the Boulder Springs Ranch compound, through that thick brush, and out into the ‘clearer’ area, if you were inclined to go that way from BSR itself.
The fact that it is ‘visible’ in ALL of these satellite images also tends to indicate that it was being ‘maintained’… as in… someone *might* have been out there with a chainsaw just making sure that ‘hiking trail’ stayed navigable on an ongoing basis even long before June 30, 2013.
If Holly Neill says she was finding ‘cut stobs’ just SOUTH of where the actual deployment site ‘road’ was pushed… then that is exactly where this ‘hiking trail’ appears to be in ALL of this satellite imagery… going back YEARS before the tragedy.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Can you zoom a closer look at the deployment site to see what trails if
>> any are there and what could be possibly man made.
Already did that.
It’s now a known fact that what we are calling the ‘deployment site’ used to be a ‘mining camp / panhandling camp’ that was cleared down to mineral soil for many years… and it had TWO man-made roads/trailes leading to it and away from it.
One was on the SOUTH side of the floor of that box canyon, and
one was on the NORTH side of the floor of that box canyon.
See the posting I did about this in the previous chapter ( Chapter 19 ) with links to aerial photos going back to 1968 and showing this ‘camp’ there at what we now call the ‘deployment site’.
The road on the NORTH side of the floor of the box canyon led EAST and over to what some have called the ‘mule trail’ that, today, leads north and away from the BSR and is, in fact, the road that recent ‘Alpha Test’ of the Yarnell Staff Ride used.
The road/trail on the SOUTH side of the floor of the box canyon connected up to the Candy Cane Lane area. There was NO Boulder Springs Ranch there in 1968.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I think you can see where I am going —–Would like to see if the private
>> property owners were maintaining any types of trails in the location
>> below the Deployment site.
See above. Yes. According to satellite imagery is it ‘highly likely’.
The satellite imagery shows what appears to be a ‘man made’ / ‘man maintained’ ‘trail’ coming out of the western perimeter of the BSR and allowing one to ‘hike’ through all that mess of vegetation just west of the BSR and over into a ‘clearer’ area in order to continue ‘hiking’… or whatever.
It ‘runs’ just south of what is now the ‘dozer road’ that was pushed out to the deployment site and ( apparently ) exactly where Holly Neill says she was finding ‘cut stobs’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If the Goggle ( imagery ) was just before the burn April 2013
It is. April 28, 2013. Just 62 days before the tragedy.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> it might revel more than you were first looking for. Or maybe not.
>>
>> I still contend—-HAD THERE BEEN A CUT TRAIL TO THE BSR
>> FROM THE SADDLE THE CREW SHOULD HAVE MADE THAT
>> DISTANCE IN 10 TO 15 MIN. NOT THE 40 IT TOOK TO THE
>> DEPLOYMENT SITE.
If there really is ever some evidence found that indicates there had been any ‘improvement’ to that ‘shortcut’ they were taking through that box canyon full of explosive fuel… then just like finding ‘proof’ that Eric Marsh really was out ahead of those men that day…
…that ‘evidence’ RAISES even more ‘disturbing’ questions than it would answer.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I BELEIVE THEY CUT TRAIL AS THEY WENT FOLLOWING THE
>> FLAGGING. A BUSH HERE AND THERE AND PROBABLY A LOT
>> OF BRUSH FROM THE SADDLE TO THE MORE GENTAL SLOPE
>> IN THE CANYON.
It remains absolutely astounding that the SAIT investigators were never competent enough to make these kinds of determinations as to whether that sort of ‘evidence’ existed, or not.
It’s also pretty clear that was just another “drive by shooting” on Holly Neill’s part regarding the ‘stobs’. She appears to have no intentions of answering even simple questions about yet another one of her ‘postings from the blue’.
You and I both know how ‘easy’ it can/should be to tell the AGE of these ‘cut stobs’ that she says she kept ‘finding’ for a 15 month ( A full YEAR and 3 month ) period, or at least be able to tell whether the ‘cuts’ were made either BEFORE or AFTER an inferno ‘moonscaped’ everything in that area.
Holly Neill clearly stated her ‘agenda’ in her emails to ADOSH investigator Marshall Krotenberg.
Her ‘prime directive’ ( or maybe a better term would be ‘prime hope’ ) throughout all this ‘investigating’ she was doing was to ( in her words to Marshall Krotenberg ) “lead to a more positive legacy for the GMIHC”.
And she SIGNED her initial email to Krotenberg with “A FAN of GMIHC”.
Her ‘hope’ has (apparently) ALWAYS been to find ‘evidence’ that Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed were ‘good little hotshots’ and that they actually DID “mark, time, scout, and/or improve” that ‘escape route’ through that bowl of explosive unburned fuel before asking the crew to go through it.
The ONLY evidence that seems to exist ( so far ) to support that ‘theory’ is Brendan McDonough finally admitting he was always LYING ( by omission ) to investigators… and that he DID hear that Marsh was “scouting ahead” late in the afternoon, while Steed and the Crew sat there ‘waiting’ back at the anchor point.
The tragic part about that, of course, is that we know now that the TIME Eric Marsh wasted at that late point in the afternoon, doing something that SHOULD have been done earlier, was the exact ‘time’ that Steed and the crew needed to actually stay alive that day.
Correction for above. I type ‘2015’ where I should have typed ‘2013’.
Helicopter ‘Air15’ was, in fact, over the Yarnell Hill fire for that crucial 50 minute period from 3:50 PM until 4:40 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
ABC15-clip-18-crossfade
Footage taken from Helicopter Air15 over Yarnell on June 30, 2013..
Includes ‘crossfades’ from actual video to equivalent Google-Earth ground imagery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSYpnPMfPmc
Thanks I remember you information on the old Mining Camp just did not put it together when I was looking at the Fade video.
I thought I could see definite trails coming from the BSR.
The could be hiking or even Horse riding trails you would need to keep open every couple of years. So could well have been recently maintained and have
current cuttings or even old ones.
Once the fire burned them you would not know by looking if they were a week old or 5 years old or maybe even longer.
It would take some serious testing to determine when they were cut.
Just some information no one has checked on or considered.
A little to much assuming with out full investigation. A good wild land fire investigator who understands burn patterns would have helped.
You are right it is unbelievable the things the SAIT did not do (investigate) or maybe they did not want to know.
It also looks like there is a bigger open area just above where they deployed
Not big enough but bigger.
Thanks for the info.
Reply to Bob Powers post on March 30, 2016 at 8:34 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Thanks I remember you information on the old
>> Mining Camp just did not put it together when
>> I was looking at the Fade video.
>> I thought I could see definite trails coming from the BSR.
Click this link to see the 1968 aerial photo of the deployment site area which shows that something was right there ( and cleared down to mineral soil ) and it had two distinct ROADS leading to it on either
side of the floor of the ‘box canyon’…
http://historicaerials.com/?layer=0&zoom=15&lat=34.220278&lon=-112.7775
NOTE: The ‘map’ that first appears will be defaulting to the 2013 satellite imagery for that location.
You have to CLICK on the ‘1968’ tab to the left of the map to actually ‘load up’ the 1968 imagery for the same location ( there at the deployment site ).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The could be hiking or even Horse riding trails you
>> would need to keep open every couple of years.
>> So could well have been recently maintained and have
>> current cuttings or even old ones.
Yes. It’s possible. I don’t know if Lee and DJ Helm were ‘riders’… but if they were… they would have needed SOME kind of small ‘path’ that leads from the west edge of their property that gets them out to that ‘clearer’ part where they could then ‘ride’ north or south. Horses don’t like manzanita and catclaw and all that other crap that was out there.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Once the fire burned them you would not know by
>> looking if they were a week old or 5 years old or
>> maybe even longer. It would take some serious testing
>> to determine when they were cut.
Yes… but definitely possible.
That’s why I asked Holly Neill ( down below ) if the one ‘stob’ she now reports was actually pulled from the ground and ‘taken away’ was because someone was going to do some testing.
But no answer ( of course ) from Neill.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Just some information no one has checked on or
>> considered. A little to much assuming with out
>> full investigation.
>>
>> A good wild land fire investigator who understands
>> burn patterns would have helped.
Yep. Professionals are always the better way to go, versus amateurs.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You are right it is unbelievable the things the SAIT did not do
>> (investigate) or maybe they did not want to know.
I don’t think there’s any MAYBE about it.
The quality of that SAIT report cannot ALL be totally attributed to ‘amateur hour’ and ‘incompetence’.
The SAIT was NOT interested in finding out what REALLY happened.
That’s pretty much a given at this point.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> It also looks like there is a bigger open area just above
>> where they deployed Not big enough but bigger.
You are absolutely correct… and this hasn’t been discussed much.
Even the place where they CHOSE to lay down and die wasn’t even the BIGGEST ‘cleared area’ out there.
The area just WEST of where they CHOSE to lay down and die was even BIGGER.
They either weren’t even AWARE of it… or they were just so totally freaked out at that point that they had totally lost the ability to make any real decisions.
No… it wasn’t ‘big enough’… but it WAS BIGGER… and maybe ( just maybe? ) there *might* ( maybe? ) have been a slightly different outcome.
Awful lot of maybe’s there… I know… but you do have to wonder.
Thanks for the info.
REPLY TO”
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The could be hiking or even Horse riding trails you
>> would need to keep open every couple of years.
>> So could well have been recently maintained and have
>> current cuttings or even old ones.
Yes. It’s possible. I don’t know if Lee and DJ Helm were ‘riders’… but if they were… they would have needed SOME kind of small ‘path’ that leads from the west edge of their property that gets them out to that ‘clearer’ part where they could then ‘ride’ north or south. Horses don’t like manzanita and catclaw and all that other crap that was out there.
MY REPLY: I was told the Helms right before the fire that area around them was cleared and cleaned so my question was always beyond the wired/wood fence or by their home? if so the stobs all are seeing could that be from the clearing the Helm’s did couple weeks before the fire or did I jump in a topic not reading it all and we are talking about saddle area and deployment area…if you look at my photos it shows the Helms back area that very morning–
Bob, no way — it took me 20 minutes to just get to where the men died on moonscape. Bret could move fast and did. Reason is the steepness and getting around boulders and sliding. The brush where they would have went down would have slowed even that and the idea of 18 men getting in the way of each other. You have to do it to know that they would have needed at least 30 if not 45 minutes to get to where they died. Now the only way to prove how hard the maybe 10-20% slope time to the ranch would be is to actually try brush like that with a crew. There is plenty around to do that. The down slope would have helped but that shit was no joke to get through. I can see that Mr. Marsh could singly beat their time but as fast as he or the Marathon runner Bret can move it does not make a difference. There is no way to run or make time through that kind of brush and with 6 heart stints you are not going to be much ahead of me in that kind of brush even if you can do the mile in less than 4.
My experience in the forest is you can generally run. Except those forests I have been in like Washington and sometimes things are so thick it is a challenge getting through similar to this brush.
This brush with cat claw is even worse. Even the scrub oak part has nettles. Why these local firemen need the real environment to train in often. You get them sick enough of being entangled in that shit, having cat claw dig gouges in your hide, and stumbling in and crawling under shit a bear has better sense than tackle, they get the understanding of cowboy Rick McKensie’s advice: “Don’t get caught down there in that brush”. Rick knew it from being a cowboy and living here. The GMHS didn’t know shit when it came to going toward a fire in that brush.
See this post- EVEN AFTER THE ADOSH INVESTIGATION CAME OUT MARSHALL CAME HERE SO THERE IS ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO”S HEARTS WEIGH HEAVY TO FIND CLARITY—
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-v-comments/#comment-13009
Marshall Krotenberg says
March 22, 2014 at 3:12 pm
WTKTT – Thank you for the detailed post.
I only new Dave for a short time but during that time I learned that he was extremely passionate about his trade, his peers, and his family. He worked hard, thought deeply, and was thoughtful of others.
What ADOSH investigator Marshall Krotenberg was commenting about there was the comment posted back in Chapter 5 about the sudden passing of Mr. Dave Larsen, who was one of the ADOSH / WFA investigators.
Dave Larsen, a former Helena Hotshot, passed away not long after the ADOSH and WFA final investigation reports were released.
So yes… even AFTER the ADOSH / WFA reports came out, we learned that people like ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg were, in fact, “reading this forum” on a regular basis.
——————————————————————————–
** On March 22, 2014 at 2:24 am, WTKTT said…
**
**
** DAVE LARSEN, ONE OF THE AUTHORS OF THE
** ADOSH WFAR REPORT, HAS DIED
Mr. Dave Larsen personally felt VERY strongly that Wildland Firefighting and
Structural Firefighting ‘cultures’ should NOT be ‘mixed’ and is quoted ( even in
his own obituary reprinted below ) as saying that he could “Never understand
risking lives to save structures”.
The last paragraph of his actual obituary ( below ) is worth reading. It is all about
how he hoped his work on the ADOSH WFAR report would someday help to
save lives.
Rest in peace… Dave Larsen.
( snip – lots of other information about Dave Larsen was included in the posting )
** DAVE LARSEN’S OBITUARY
Dave Larsen’s Obituary ( with a photo of him )…
http://helenair.com/news/local/obituaries/dave-larsen/article_1ab8f7ee-96e3-11e3-89f9-001a4bcf887a.html?comment_form=true
—————————————————————————
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/sh/eedzcsi1dpeczak/vRGDU9CIpx/Reduced%20Photo%20Images/1%20%28142%29.JPG?token_hash=AAGqQKbREb0yMp88nKg-tR9VdXMfGRn9RxBsV3o8LU35CQ
just look at how lush and dense it was…so when Sonny said bear wallow area in some spots- this shows it right behind the helms-
thank u wwtktt as I go back into archives I am seeing links I never noticed by you-
thank you
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/XZ137_JeS3/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails/N9589%20Notes%20redacted.pdf
look at how many firefighters on this handwritten sheet never made it to full interviews- and re-interviews—
The weather, fire behavior, safety zones, escape routes. I mean, what we
502
could expect, what they kn
ow. To try to get a lookout established, ah,
503
communication plans. Things like that. Just hazards that we might run into.
504
S
nakes
from https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABDK7guZcOW4ICbvbJy35GUa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/City%20of%20Prescott%20Fire%20–%20GMHS/Employee%20Interviews%20by%20ADOSH/Transcripts/Brendan%20McDonough%20Interview%208-20-13.pdf?dl=0
Brendan- before the fire and even now after the fire and to anyone hiking the area that I have done now for over 13 years…do not need to be afraid of snakes. I wore flip flops to snake boots and just be mindful is all and look on the ground and all around unless you are Sonny than you just walk normal and if a snake is about to hit you- grab it by its throat and choke it or put it around your waist and bring it in your nearest bar and buy the snake a drink- soft smiles.
Snakes are not to be feared or scared of but it is great to understand that terrain has hybrids of Mojave/diamondbacks but a lot more black tailed and black rattlesnakes and peach to pink rattlers and sand and boas…mainly black and black tail up here but on the Congress side the hybrids and peach/pink tiger and speckled rattlers…hope that helps you for next time Brendan
, high heat, um, to make sure we were hydrated and bring extra water.
505
506
Q1:
Were there sn
akes in that area?
507
508
A:
There
–
yeah,
there has to be. I wouldn’t.
509
510
Q1:
What? W
ell, it looks like it to me.
511
512
A:
Yeah.
513
514
Q
2
:
We were afraid.
515
516
Q1
:
Yeah.
517
518
Gary-
all the glaze of ouchies…(rat’s ass)…I have a question to you-
Taking a LOOK at Eric Marsh.
He loved his men. He loved his job. He was going up for a possible promotion. He had great future plans for the organization and it was his baby so why would you be so harsh to isolate STEED or MARSH that word murder—it seems like horseshit. With information OUT I see you bring it up but what if more information comes out and shows another view- you going to feel bad for such ouchies already said?
I know…I know…you are not here to make friends but we are your supposed confidantes
and from that I was hoping by speaking up you just remember your hero Dr. Ted Putnam and how he has that box with 1. Mental (Mindset) (focus) 2. Physical 3. Culture 4. Organization….if we can take that and incorporate it here and have the mindset to 2.,3.,4. 🙂
where is Sitta?
this might help get off topic
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vi-comments/#comment-13117
Eric says
March 22, 2014 at 6:42 pm
Folks, let’s quit the back and forth bullshit of arguing and insinuating amongst ourselves. I have been in the fire service too long to have any patients for this! No one is getting paid to post in here or do the hours of research they have done. ANYONE!.. Let’s knock off all the copy and pasting and ” this one said this and that one said that!”
Agree to disagree and move on!…..Everyone here, is here because they give a crap about knowing the truth of June 30, 2013. So let’s get off this path to nowhere and back onto the road to what matters and open sharing of information. If you are unable to share sources, that is understandable, however those conversations are best not discussed on this thread. There are no sides here, we are all for the same cause….
Reply
Sitta says
March 22, 2014 at 8:13 pm
Well said. It’s easy to get frustrated because the stakes are high (the truth, the reputation of those living and those gone, the feelings of the loved ones, and the safety of current and future WFFs).
Eric is right. We are ultimately on the same side, and we are all invested in this. We’ve learned we should keep the private conversations separate from this public thread; we can move on from here. It looks like JD’s posted plenty of new ADOSH info that can use some eyes:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/ZbnvFe9JW5
Reply
Eric says
March 22, 2014 at 9:26 pm
Sitta, I do not want to see good people leave this discussion because of the b.s. back and forth stuff. We are all guily of it at one time or another but we need to bring focus back..
Reply
and also sometimes when you back to the start and see who is talking and then focus to who ISNT talking- that was where I ended up going to look then when I really looked at this link
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AACY0gafJDqleNtPDSlireV4a/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/City%20of%20Prescott%20Fire%20–%20GMHS/Eric%20Marsh%20Personnel%20File.pdf?dl=0
I looked at what it says and doesn’t say-
How one year it changed and what was new and different from that one year to the next —what happened new to the team —and all the bad decision bad outcomes- how come that lingo never made it to evaluation annually-
I have to note this- I wish my neighbor gave me a 4% raise recommendation-
there is things I have not liked since day one and really reading the evaluations and what is there and what is not there and what it says…
so that is another reason I always felt wait and see if more comes out—
Joy…you really are a challenge. In a world of challenging people, you manage to stand out. Over the past several years there has been several examples of men in particular, who have left their very young children in car seats in hot cars where they die. It seems like there have been several examples in Phoenix alone in the last few years.
These men usually are smoking pot, having an affair, taking a nap, or stopping by their local bar and having a few with the boys after they pick up the very small child from daycare when it is out of their normal routine and then they forget about them because they are smoking pot, having an affair, taking a nap or getting drunk.
All of these men loved their babies but they fucked up. They are always charged with manslaughter…not murder because there is no premeditation. Now…I am going to type this very SLOWLY and very LOUDLY so you can try to keep up and understand.
Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed broke almost all of the rules at once in their actions to march the men they loved and themselves into the path of a firestorm of biblical proportions when everything (the circumstances) and everyone says they should not have done that and should have known that their actions could result in their own deaths and those of the men they loved.
Everything they did meets the very definition and all of the “elements” of a federal MANSLAUGHTER charge not MURDER, and 17 men besides themselves are dead as a direct result of their reckless actions.
The only thing that could possibly make me rethink my position on this is if we find out those 17 men are not really dead after all. Other than that, there was a crime committed and Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed committed it.
Now…people like you are the reason our jury system is so flawed, you let your personal opinions, emotion, and bias cloud your judgement and ability to read and comprehend the law and so we very well might not get a guilty verdict but that doesn’t mean a crime wasn’t committed…it’s called jury nullification.
You can explain things to people on a jury until you are blue in the face, but you can’t fix stupid or stubborn or stupid and stubborn. That is not to say you are stupid or stubborn, but many people on juries are. You are however, a real…challenge.
Stubborn might be the word for Joy. She does know–think it is hard, I live with her. By all accounts, living with Joy has its trials–but she says living with Sonny has its trials. I am glad there isn’t a jury on this one–but what could be better than a Sunny day full of Joy.
It is well put that of course we know that there were absolutely no intentions on the part of Marsh or Steed or anyone else involved in this case to kill anyone. I even go back to day one when the local fire departments for whatever reason or motive did not take care of an emergency. Here though is where you and WTKTT would come in to describe the crime of negligence as you both have to a very good degree so that we, the jury can decide where those fellows that were in charge lie. What I would want to know is where people that were in charge of decisions to allow the fire to fester on Friday night June 28, 2013 would be charged on the negligence issue. Norb tells me that he would have taken care of that fire on Friday evening and if needed the night time as well. He indicated that night work in these hot climate temperature can actually be better to do that the daytime. He told me that working around the boulders there was entirely a thing that could and would be done in a case like that. It makes me feel that someone was absolutely negligent to allow that fire to continue until it got down into that dense manzanita where it would be totally uncontrollable and anything could happen–which did culminate in the deaths of the 19–half Yarnel gone-millions in tax money squandered. Those are not light charges and it makes me wonder how the responsibility would lie and be spread. Your comments and others like WTKTT that I think is either a genius or a lawyer, maybe both, would be appreciated. A dumb cowpoke like myself fits in this somewhere, I even have a bit of guilt. I should have done my homework and known these local fire departments at the time did not take lightening strikes seriously–and believe it or not had I known I would have been headed out to make sure it did not escape the boulder area. So maybe even I have some culpability as small as it might be. Now that I have six heart stents, that culpability has gone way down considering I loose breating capacity in a hurry now.
Sonny said: “She does know–think it is hard, I live with her. ”
you have lived with me on an “adventure” with an unusual dysfunctional twilight zone layer to it but the normal way people do- nope- you have not “lived” with me.
Your challenges with me Sonny is because you are mountain man and I am cookie cutter plus I don’t drink or have the capabilities to understand how countless times a person is held accountable in “your” mind but you cannot “get” how that accountable spot even came about; hmmm….your other dark side from drinking- you cut that dark side out- we have zero challenges. We get along fine. It has been proven.
Sonny said “She does know–”
I know what? I am not a challenge but I do challenge people to change their brain…I know I have neurological concerns but I have 2 brain tumors so I have an excuse- what is yours to back up this kind of ugliness? Think about it Sonny. These loved ones were bombarded since June 30, 2013 from I cannot tell you HOW MANY types of people-
look at us the hikers and HOW MANY came to us…just imagine that…they were not giving the proper privacy to mourn a world wide known tragedy of their loved one so maybe I have to challenge the brain to make sure it can help you see the kind of language mechanism here has made me feel at times intoxicated in it and I engaged but I will come here but I am not going to go back and forth on topic and I accept we disagree- I will not be the next xxfullsailxx/EN back and forth- you know where I stand and that’s enough,
Sonny said: “Sunny day full of Joy. ” you mean Sonny day full of Joy…it is time to start looking at the markers here. I am anti medication and anti-throwing pills at people and I am looking at this as biochemical and we cannot balance when we chemically mismatch but we can agree we dysfunctionally work. We just be.
It bothered me in one of the SAIT interviews with us that did not make it to report on us that helicopter was brought up but also they tried to layer me as the one who pointed our way out that day- I pointed to two track and with finger said we would go from right to left on top of the Weavers- I never once mentioned Helms and so I am innerly pissed off there was any layer of orchestrating to make me a part of why they went that way- I have no clue and it makes me sad- so I like to think these 2 men did not lead them but had additional chaos elements in such bad decisions
With all do respect Sonny…Norb didn’t work for the Arizona Division of Forestry so what Norb, or I or anyone else would have done is relevant. I have explained this numerous times, but because I like you so much, I am going to go over it one more time for an ole” cowpoke even though you play the same game I played so successfully for so many years. Gee whiz, gosh all mighty, I am just a big fat dumb Swede who don’t know nothin’ about nothin, you sure are smarter and better than me”…right up to the point I had them right where I wanted them…and then I gutted them and they never even saw it a – comin’, until it was too darn late to save them.
The Arizona State Legislature does NOT fund the Arizona State Forestry to fight ALL wildfires ALL of the time, actually the U.S. Congress doesn’t fund the U.S. Forest Service to fight ALL wildfires ALL of the time, but Arizona is especially bad. Bad even compared to New Mexico which normally sets all of the low bar standards except for Mississippi, which normally does worse on everything.
So…the employees for Arizona State Forestry, Russ Shumate in this particular case have to make judgement calls based on their education, training and experience which fires to go after and how hard while staying within the budget that has been set for them excluding a catastrophic fire when they could go back to the legislature and ask for more money for a special circumstance. If they don’t stay within their allocated budget…they get demoted and eventually fired.
That is the way Arizona State Forestry has always fought fires, that is the way they are fighting fires today and the way they will always fight fire until the Arizona State Legislature funds them at an adequate level to fight more fires, more often. Fires like the Yarnell Hill Fire usually just creep around in the boulders and then they go out after you send up some nearly free prison labor to put a chicken scratch around it. It has worked TENS OF THOUSANDS of times just like that successfully and you know nothin’ about them, because that tactic worked.
Only this time was different, It was a perfect storm of circumstances and variables and things went to hell in a hand basket. Your beef is with state representative Karen Fann and others like her. Talk to her about increasing Arizona State Forestry’s budget. But FYI…that won’t work because then all of the bitchy penny pinching old people and asshole republicans in her district, mostly in Prescott, won’t elect her into office again and she will lose her job. So she won’t do that.
Now…the next time you ask that question, the answer is going to be the same, just like it was the last time you asked that question.
Oh…and one more thing. I understand that you don’t like that answer and neither do I, but is it the answer. And because Norb, who worked for a more professional and better funded outfit that Arizona State Forestry and you and I don’t know what the policies, protocols, procedures and guidelines (their strategy) that Russ Shumate was operating under, we can’t possibly know what we would have done had we been employees of the Arizona Division of Forestry in Shumate’s place.
But there is no doubt in my mind that Russ Shumate (who I don’t know) is NOT a rogue employee and was NOT operating outside of their specified guidelines. We just don’t agree with or like their guidelines.
And here is the scary part I also keep mentioning…nothing has changed since the Yarnell Hill Fire. Have you noticed your state taxes going up or have you read in the newspaper that there had been huge funding increases for the Arizona Department of Forestry?
Probably not…so that means they are doing exactly the same thing today as they were doing back then. Arizona is usually in a race for the bottom with New Mexico and Mississippi…and sometimes they WIN!
This is like boot camp–the seasoned Sarge who had been there and done that trying to get the grunt to understand. It took us 13 weeks before they figured we were ready to be shot at. We do need a refresher course now and again.
Yes we do need more funds toward the Forest Fighting resources in Arizonastan as you call it Gary Olsen. We wonder why we can spend over a million on a memorial, multi millions to put out the fire due to ignorance and negligence but pinch penny funds for the wild land fire fighting needs. Yarnell proves how badly the wild fire resources need to be upgraded.
You can bet Karen Fann and a number of important people read this site and are learning that fact and how many civilians want to save money, resources and lives by an upgrade ==something only millions like were spent on the Yarnell incident can do. I don’t mind if they redact statements out of my plea so this can be presented if that redaction would bring more funds toward the wild fire community.
I say immediately double wages bottom up–that will attract the best and people can compete on an honest basis to get these jobs. Verified credentials and experience a must–If you worked on the Yarnell fire, your credentials, and resume would be double checked for truthfulness.
Then, better radios, equipment and academic work that includes visitations to sites where men were lost so that the understanding of how one can fuck up and destroy lives, even your own would be seen and understood and felt first hand. Manzanita tramping would be mandatory in this area and I mean enough to make the bosses and men sick of that shit. Manzanita is a protected plant in Arizona but a bit of the millions of acres around here are worth tramping. Actually a bear cant hurt that shit going through it so I don’t understand the idiot that would have it protected. This same idiot must have been in on passing a law to charge people to cross fucking desert. He would have been one of those to go toward Helms.
So yes, exactly–Thanks Gary for keeping us in the right path and not tangled up in the manzanita patch.
You really got me to thinking Joy, maybe there are some other reasons why I wouldn’t think both Marsh and Steed would be guilty of manslaughter if they would have surived other than the men are still alive.
What if someone held a gun to to their heads and made them give those orders to their men or they would be killed…that would be an extenuation circumstance. Do you know if someone held guns to their heads?
Or something else like that. Other than that I am just going to have to put my college degree in Police Science, more than one year with my butt in a chair at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, dozens of other advanced courses, and my 22 years as a Federal Agent plus the Arizona Peace Officers Academy I graduated from and my time as a deputy sheriff in Coconino County up against your what…instincts, feelings, beliefs, emotions, experience, training, powers of deductive reasoning…what? Other than this elusive new information that you insist is out there that someone who is unknown to us but known by you will eventually be coming forward with to enlighten us.
And I do have some more really bad news for YOU taxpayers out there, if Joy and all of the firefighters out there who are in denial are right and I am wrong, millions of your tax dollars were wasted to get me up to the level where I can read and comprehend the federal manslaughter well enough to apply it in a real world setting. So…
And I do have some more really bad news for YOU taxpayers out there, if Joy and all of the firefighters out there who are in denial are right and I am wrong, millions of your tax dollars were wasted to get me up to the level where I can read and comprehend the federal manslaughter LAW- Statute well enough to apply it in a real world setting. So…
Oh…and one more thing Joy…the federal manslaughter law, which I have posted here numerous times for your enlightenment, is relatively short, straight forward and easy to understand…so what exactly is your problem?
no but did you ever think how many things were going wrong that very day—the frustrations of just that day—the frustrations of coming back off leave and seeing things are different and I just will state one final time without all the information one cannot properly assess this fire is my humble opinion…Sonny can say what he wants- he is a free man but I am not him. We get swallowed as the hikers like a group vs individuals but the world has to know we are not THE HIKERS commenting here unless we say we are- and we have come here as THE HIKERS than that means we support another’s public comment
Well I have read the federal manslaughter law which is relativity short, simple and easy to understand and it doesn’t say anything about it being okay to deliberately take grossly reckless actions that you either knew or should have known could cause the deaths of others because you are working on your day off and you are frustrated, thirsty, hung over, and want to get out the heat or back in the fight.
You still can’t jeopardize other people’s lives and if you do and they die, you should be prosecuted. Now, of course the Arizona State law pertaining to manslaughter is the one that would apply in this situation but all of those laws read more or less the same. You can’t recklessly endanger other people without some consequences if they get hurt or die or none of us would be safe anywhere at any time..
RTS said:
I do not know what day it was when he took the photos. The photo and GPS coordinate of individual stob was the same day. He did clarify that only ONE of four stobs found was one that he, the presenter, located with the others being ones Holly Neil located. In other words, Holly Neil originally got the stobs that she allegedly ‘found’ from Dr. Ted Putnam.
Holly Neill replies: There were five cut stobs found, not four. I took all photos and each one is time, date and GPS stamped, with the following exception: The “presenter” took a photo of the stob he found after he found it and removed it, before I could photograph in situ. I took a photo of the location where he found the stob, the location was marked with a rock and an upright stick, and the location was GPS’d.
I took GPS readings with my camera, photographing all stobs in situ when found, (except the one noted above).
I did not “originally get any stobs” from DR Ted Putnam.
Putnam had identified some small diameter burned branches on the steep east facing descent slope that Granite came down..
No wonder Mr. Schoeffler is confused. Clearly Mr Schoeffler never verified the Putnam stobs for himself or their location in comparison to my research findings. If he had, he would realize the following:.
1.. Putnam noted what he thought was possible cut material (angled tips of small burned branches) on the steep east facing descent slope. Our findings were located between the fatality site and the Helms Ranch, in the valley bottom.
I would encourage Mr. Schoeffler to scout and investigate the steep slope for possible evidence of cut material similar to what Putnam “found.”, BECAUSE:
When Wayne and I scouted the steep slope, and gridded ACROSS the steep slope, we noticed that MANY small diameter burned branches were present along the entire slope. They exhibited the same “cut” angle as Putnam’s, indicating a BURN PATTERN that could clearly be found across the slope, not just in a path or an isolated area, perhaps indicating route improvement.
In other words, many branches with the same burn pattern, the angled tips of small diameter burned branches, were found across the slope. They were obvious and common and abundant. They did not appear to have been cut by chainsaw.
Again, the stobs found by our efforts were east of the fatality site, south of the dozer line and NOT on the steep descent slope.
I would encourage Mr Schoeffler to get his facts straight by carefully and methodically investigating this issue, instead of first making inaccurate assumptions and ugly accusations..
We will be releasing our research project findings soon, with all details including PowerPoint, photographs and Google Maps
.
Here are some of my research project details for now:
I took my first trip to Yarnell, AZ in July 2013 with my husband Wayne Neill, to attend the GMIHC Memorial Service. I returned again in November of 2013 and viewed the GMIHC fatality site from above. The dozer line that was pushed in from the Ranch to the fatality site was prominent.
I began to wonder if anyone had scouted or investigated the area between the Ranch and the fatality site for any additional evidence along the escape route, before the dozer line was put in. I made numerous inquiries to officials and was able to conclude that this area had not been investigated beforehand. This left the possibility that evidence may have been destroyed by the dozer line, or may still exist. I was interested in scouting the area to rule in or out whether GMIHC improved the escape route to the Ranch.
Wayne and I were able to return and scout the dozer line in March of 2014. Wayne found a stob cut by chainsaw just east of the fatality site. This was quite possibly from the GMIHC as they were cutting a deployment site. Time did not permit further scouting.
I was able to return again for the first year anniversary, June 30, 2014. I spent two nights at the Helm’s Ranch and on June 29 I asked Alan Sinclair to join me in scouting the area between the fatality site and the Helms Ranch.
Alan found a chainsaw cut stob much closer to the Ranch and south of the dozer line.
We returned again in November 2014 for additional scouting. This time our group consisted of Wayne and me, along with John Maclean and a former Hotshot and friend. During this trip we were able to conduct a more extensive grid search of the area between the fatality site and the Helm’s Ranch. Wayne and others found additional cut stobs, also located closer to the Helms Ranch than to the fatality site, in the same vicinity of Alan Sinclair’s find. These stobs were also found on the south side of the dozer line. I returned by myself in June of 2015 and found another cut stob in the same vicinity.
I photographed each cut stob in situ (except where noted) and I took GPS coordinates at each location. I then plotted each GPS location onto a Google Earth map. It was interesting to note that the cut stobs were all located south of the dozer line in relative alignment, and collection occurred over a 15 month timeframe, from March 2014 to June 2015.
I made numerous inquiries to Lee and Diane Helm, the Ranch owners. To their knowledge, I asked, was any chainsaw cutting done in the area west of their property, pre or post fire, or had any cut wood been put there by them or anyone else? I queried several firefighters who were on scene after the fatalities occurred, from the evening of June 30 to the following morning and into the next day. Was any chainsaw work done in this area, either along the dozer line or for mop up purposes? All answers were “no”. There were some mop up efforts around the Ranch perimeter with hand tools, but chainsaws were not used.
The PowerPoint presentation makes it clear that these findings are inconclusive and suggestive only. It is unfortunate that the dozer line was put in before this area could be scouted for any indication that an escape route may or may not have been improved. It is also unfortunate that official investigators drew absolute conclusions without a thorough investigation of the area.
The presentation also makes it clear that the SAIR encourages additional research:
“We challenge every wildland fire organization to identify issues and questions raised in this report that resonate within their organizations, and to initiate and facilitate ongoing discussions.” (SAIR pg. 46)
The questions remain:
Did GMIHC mark, time, scout, or improve their escape route to the Ranch?
What is the meaning of Granite’s “predetermined route”, or their “escape route from this morning?”
Thank you, Holly.
A few (quick) questions.
With ANY of these ‘stobs’ that were ‘found and photographed’ over that 15 month period…would you say that it was ‘obvious’ they were made BEFORE the burnover… or obvious they were made AFTER the burnover… or “unable to tell”.
As Mr. Bob Powers has pointed out already…
If they were made BEFORE the burnover ( in that area you describe )… they would have been ‘burned on the ends’ in the ‘inferno’ and would look just like the ‘stobs’ that ARE visible in some of the deployment site photos.
If they were made AFTER the burnover… they would be showing ‘white wood’… or at least not the obvious charring one would expect of any ‘stobs’ subjected to the inferno.
Was any of this ‘clear’ on the ‘evidence’ you were finding… or would you just characterize it as ‘hard to tell’?
For the one ‘stob’ you describe as having been REMOVED from the area… was that for ‘testing’ purposes? If so… what were the ‘results’ of that ‘testing’?
Holly
Your last two questions are and have been our questions.
We have some clues.
The crew was busy completing line with no real fire activity near them until roughly 1530 when the Lookout was forced out of his location.
McDonough has said nothing about a small crew with Chainsaw or saws building a trail or escape route to the BSR.
My belief is that if a chainsaw crew had gotten to the BSR they would have stayed there and not returned to the crew. Common since says they would have been
there waiting for the crew rather than returning with full gear.
My previous experience says they would have had to leave the top at the rest area
by 1430 to 1500 to cut a trail to the BSR by 1604 when the crew left the Rest area.
Taking 1 saw and a couple of swampers to make a trail and get to the BSR.
Had there have been a trail cut the crew would have made way faster time to the BSR and been there in a max of 20 min. or 1625. and the saw crew would have had a prefect Look Out spot. No indication that ever happened.
So back to the Flagging done by Marsh we have one clue the ball of pink tape at the Saddle. So the real question is how far did Marsh Flag before returning to the crew. If he got to the BSR he surly would have seen the complete change in the fire and the immediate impending threat to the crew.
We know he turned back at some point to meet the crew as he was with them 2 min. after the first Steed statement “we are in front of the flaming front”.
I would say Marsh never got to the BSR nor did any Chain Saws.
No time, no reason to go back to the crew with saws.
It just dose not make any common since that GM was at BSR cutting Brush.
Our escape route from this morning—–
The only tie in here is the discussion of the BSR as a Safety Zone (Bomb proof)
To get to the BSR there were 2 ways the 2 tract or the canyon.
I think Marsh may have been clearer in what he said. There was no specific escape route mentioned in the briefing “from this morning.”
Only the BSR SZ or of course the BLACK.
Which meant they could have been moving off the line and into the black.
Or they were taking a route to the SZ BSR.
I do not remember any statement about a–( predetermined route ) by Marsh.
They could as well have followed the 2 track had they had the time to check it out
There was a lot less brush cutting evolved there and may have been faster.
I go back again to a last minuet decision to bail off at the saddle and not a pre planed move. If there had been any time for pre scouting the 2 tract would have been checked.
There was no preplanned route to BSR . Marsh was looking for the fastest route off the mountain and made a horrible mistake by going down into a canyon that left them blind to the fire and put them at a very high risk by moving thru unburned heavy Chaparral. Or what is known as a dead zone.
From there I guess you can make your own conclusions those are mine based on 15 years fighting brush fires in Southern Calif. with crews including Hot Shots.
33 years as a Engine Boss, Crew Boss, Sector Boss, Division boss, type 2 IC and OPS. An instructor for 30 of those years in Basic FF, weather, line construction.
Fuels etc. . I have been to every training session up to the 500 classes.
The crew violated every rule the were taught to follow. Ignored every Watch Out and put themselves in the place they died. Lead by Marsh and Steed.
There is nor will there ever be any justification for what they did.
Just talked to Dr. Anderson at the Yarnell PO.WTKTT has all his credentials-we happen to know him personally. We also know he is not happy with the way things went here. He was privy to much we were not–for example he was in the fire department and overhearing much where our presence would not be welcome. He told me outright that those men were ordered down there and it was an order from above Marsh. Now I have no idea of his evidence or testimony–I did not ask, but I am certain any investigator that would contact him will get a solid and trustworthy answer. He is not one to bull shit anyone.
I mentioned that he ought to be one to help with the movie “NO EXIT”. He said he hopes so too since he lives here, was an official of the Yarnell Fire Station and has a very close relationship and understanding of the situation. But I won’t hold my breath since he was never interviewed by SAIR. Morgan Lowe, who we did hike up the upper portion of the trail they are now making did interview him for Investigative Reporter channel 5. Morgan Lowe is now a commentator for channel 5, Phoenix–grew up on a ranch and very respectable when it comes to understanding the situation that killed the men.
Reply to Charlie post on March 30, 2016 at 7:04 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Just talked to Dr. Anderson at the Yarnell PO
>> .WTKTT has all his credentials.
>> we happen to know him personally.
You’re referring to former Yarnell Fire Chief Peter Andersen, right?
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> We also know he is not happy with the way things went
>> here. He was privy to much we were not–for example
>> he was in the fire department and overhearing much
>> where our presence would not be welcome. He told
>> me outright that those men were ordered down there
>> and it was an order from above Marsh.
Did you get the impression that he’s simply SURE it had to be an ‘order from above’… but he isn’t sure WHO… or that he actually KNOWS exactly WHO gave that order?
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> He was never interviewed by SAIR.
That’s correct… and that remains ‘astounding’ given his reputation, and the fact that he WAS speaking to Shumate and others on both Friday and Saturday.
But he WAS interviewed by InvestigativeMEDIA… and he was one of the first experienced firefighters to start calling a “spade a spade”…
InvestigativeMEDIA
Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation Ignored Major Mistakes by the State
Published: October 17, 2013 – By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/
———————————————————————–
Former Yarnell Fire Chief Peter Andersen sat under a tree in his front yard having his morning coffee on Sunday, June 30, when the Granite Mountain Hotshots drove past his Glen Ilah home.
“At 8:03, [their] two buggies went by,” Andersen says. “Right after they went by, the leaves started to blow. I shook my head. [The state] didn’t listen to me.”
Andersen, who resigned as Yarnell chief in 2011 after 12 years of service, was aggravated because he had warned an Arizona Forestry Division fire manager the night before that it was crucial to attack the steadily expanding fire in the hills above Yarnell at dawn, before prevailing southwesterly winds picked up about 8 in the morning.
“I said, this being summertime, it will give you three hours . . . without wind at your backs to be able to get this thing under control,” Andersen says he told a fire manager.
Seeing the hotshots roll past so late on Sunday morning was yet another signal to Andersen that the Forestry Division was failing to aggressively attack a wildfire that started TWO DAYS EARLIER.
For reasons that remain unknown, the Granite Mountain Hotshots left their safe spot in a burned-over area on a ridge sometime after 4 p.m. and dropped down the side of the mountain. About 4:40 p.m., they hiked through dense chaparral at the base of one of the canyons, apparently attempting to reach Boulder Springs Ranch, which had been designated as a safety zone because the owners had cleared a wide swath of vegetation from around the property.
Suddenly, the fire swept around the northern flank of the canyon’s wall and surged toward the 19 men, covering the last 100 yards in 19 seconds. The crew had less than two minutes to react to the 2,000-degree firestorm that quickly engulfed their position. There was no chance of survival.
Like tens of thousands of people who’ve closely examined the circumstances leading up to the hotshots’ deaths, Anderson doesn’t understand why the crew was in the box canyon in the first place, much less at a time of day when wildfires typically display their greatest intensity and when thunderstorm warnings had been issued.
“Anybody who has ever taken a wild-lands class is warned about box canyons,” Andersen says. “You might as well be standing in a fireplace with the flue open.”
The question of why the men were there haunts Andersen. And, he says, the lack of substantive conclusions in a report issued September 28 after a state-commissioned investigation into their deaths has left him unsatisfied.
“I think it’s a big cover-up, a big snow job,” he says. “It tries to take any semblance of blame off anybody.”
———————————————————————–
Whoops.
Ignore the post above.
I just found another where ‘Charlie’ clarifies that was Dr. Leroy Andersen he was referring to above, and not former Yarnell Fire Chief Peter Andersen…
—————————————————————
On March 31, 2016 at 10:22 am… Charlie said…
I posted about Dr. Leroy Anderson–tells me those men were ordered down–I was at the Yarnell PO when he said that. I do hope NO EXIT gets hold of him–he is concerned and wants them to. Since he is part of the business you and Norb do I hoped you fellows would get hold of him. He wants to talk and talks firemen lingo–I think he might have been in law enforcement also. So I will leave that one to you and fellows that want to talk to him. He has even written a synopsis of things and published some of it. A no bull shit guy.
——————————————————–
Holly,
Thanks for the clarification and details. I knew you’d come on to clear things up. I look forward to your presentation.
I saw this and thought I think that is why we all come here to look for gained clarity but some of us get frustrated and such—it’s being human…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vi-comments/#comment-22177
I have been reviewing all comments. I have been through the Forest Service docs and OSHA docs. Since I was taken out to the Incident Site (I am the mother to Andrew Ashcraft) I knew this was not a tragedy caused by just happenstance.
I don’t post because there are days when I think some of the discussions are just ridiculous. But there are times when I see something that reminds me of a clue or fact that needs to be examined in more depth.
The truth of what happened that day will come out. We will learn lessons from this only when the truth is complete. I do want to caution several of you: until you walk the path the guys walked (and I mean actually put your feet on the path in Yarnell) – if you did not know this crew on a personal/professional level watch your assumptions – if you think you know it all be careful.
If any of you ever want to send the 12 families standing together for truth feel free to send me the info ([email protected]) – it will remain confidential if you choose.
I brought that archived comment to the front to show you Gary a lot of people read this that want clarity not to hear that ugly descriptions-
fingers crossed…
I am not an advocate for the families, that is someone else’s job.
**
** CENTRAL ARIZONA WILDLAND RESPONSE TEAM ( CAWRT )
**
** 2016 DRILL / REFRESHER
**
** PRESENTATION ABOUT “HUMAN FACTORS” AND THE YARNELL HILL TRAGEDY
This year’s Central Arizona Wildland Response Team’s 2016 drill/refresher ( conference ) was held last week at the Glendale Regional Public Safety Training Center.
On Drill Day 2 ( March 24 ), 26 year Hotshot veteran Fred Schoeffler gave an official ‘presentation’ in the main lecture room about “Human factors involved in the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire fatalities”.
Someone updated the Glendale Regional Public Safety Training Center’s PUBLIC Facebook page with a photo of this ‘presentation’ being given by Fred Schoeffler.
That photo is at the following PUBLIC link…
https://www.facebook.com/201969799880168/photos/pcb.987922664618207/987921821284958/?type=3&theater
From that PUBLIC page…
——————————————-
Central Arizona Wildland Response Team (CAWRT)
Like This Page – March 24
( Photograph of Fred Schoeffler standing at the podium )
Photo Caption:
Presenter Fred Schoeffler speaking about human factors involved in the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire fatalities — at Glendale Regional Public Safety Training Center.
——————————————-
In the photo… Fred Schoeffler is standing at the podium in the tan jacket.
He has a ‘slide’ from his presentation showing on the ‘big screen’ behind him.
The parts of that ‘big screen’ that are visible in the photo contain the following text…
——————————————-
“?? Fixation” – locking on to one explanation of your (?) behavior
is driven by events and difficult to anticipate and ( influence ?)
( future? ) circumstances”.
“In times of the highest stress trained individuals fall back on their
highest level of overtraining”.
South Canyon Fire – (1994) CO BLM – 14 fatalities – ( ? )
Thirtymile Fire (2001) WA FS – 4 fatalities – ( ? )
Yarnell Hill Fire – (2013) AZ ASF and Private – 19 fatalities
DIVSA and acting GMHS Supt refer to GMHS as “Granite Mountain 7” – formerly
a Fuels Crew named “Crew 7” and DIVS A answering for GMHS instead of DIVS A
in response to AA… and being emboldended by
their “…long chain of Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes”.
——————————————-
( Yes… I know… that sentence in the middle seems to have too many ‘DIVS A’ references and doesn’t really hold together, but that really does appear to be what it was saying in the ‘slide’ showing on the ‘big screen’ ).
It seems like the full presentation was allowed to proceed and there are no reports of anyone getting “kicked out” of this conference.
So it looks like CAWRT ( at least ) is/was ‘ready’ to start openly discussing the “Human Factors” elements of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
That’s good.
WTF Fred…you got OLD! Which I guess is better than the alternative…you got DEAD!
THAT’S the dude that has been calling ME sensitive? Hahahahahahahha! Too fuckin’ funny. Please. Ya gotta stop. Yer killin’ me!!!
Wildland Response Team, eh? I gotta investigate THIS shit. I wonder if there are any Battalion Chiefs involved with that? Engines, EMT’s? Well let’s just take a look see here and find out.
Woodsman
Make sure all your spare ‘shock collars’ are fully ‘charged up’.
The top level ( PUBLIC ) Facebook page for CAWRT is here…
https://www.facebook.com/Central-Arizona-Wildland-Response-Team-CAWRT-201969799880168/
There last ( PUBLIC ) Facebook POST is this one… ( March 25 ) and it was ‘summing up’ this year’s ‘refresher training’ at the Glendale Public Regional Safety Training Center…
————————————————————————–
Central Arizona Wildland Response Team (CAWRT)
March 25 at 9:49am ·
Around 250 students received their annual fire line refresher training (RT-130) during the past 2 days at the 2016 CAWRT Drill held at the Glendale Regional Public Safety Training Center. Special thanks go out to all of the cooperators that made the drill a success including our federal, state and local partners that served as a part of the instructor cadre or on the command and general staff.
The 2017 CAWRT Drill will be held in March of 2017 at the Goldfield Work Station on the Tonto National Forest.
Russ Shumate, Brian Perrone, Lance Frawley and 2 others like this.
——————————————————————
Look who was the first CAWRT ‘Facebook friend’ to ‘LIKE’ the post.
Russ Shumate. The Arizona Forestry ‘Duty Officer’ on Friday, June 28, 2013 who then became the ICT4 for the “Yarnell Hill Fire” for June 28 and June 29… and who let that thing get away from him that Saturday.
Hay I was gray at 45. Looks can be deceiving. Any body that was on and ran a Hot Shot crew for 26 years add a lot to your age.
Of course none of us look like we looked when we were 30.
Bob, you don’t need to defend RTS or Fred every time they come up. That was a slight dig because I thought that I was the only that got old. I expect everyone to look like they did when I last say them, but usually they don’t…they look older.
Now…just for the record. I’m very sure that all of you, Fred, RTS and you are just as healthy, vibrant, youthful, full of vitality and all of you can still achieve and maintain you manliness for as long as you want to and your minds are without a doubt even sharper than they ever have been because not only are you as smart as you ever were, but now you have all of the wisdom and knowledge that only a life well lived can bring. You and Fred are like fine wines, you got better with age. The gray and the wrinkles are like a glowing patina on your youthful but yet gracefully ages faces that are somehow even more striking than they ever have been. It must be because you both worked on an R-5 hotshot crew, maybe it was the water…like the Fountain of Youth?
You are supermen! I’m not, I got old which is better than I got dead…I think?
OK?
That’s better –was not defending Fred as much as going back to
the older guys can still work on fires if they are in Great Health and Physical Stamina. And they have a lot to depart in training.
I was all gray before I went to work for the Sheriffs department
and at 69 decided my physical abilities were getting to a point I was a liability so I quit.
Also though I don’t know for sure I put Fred at 12 Years younger than me at about 61 my guess based on his first work with Oak Grove in 73.
Fred-
I seen him…not met him..but seen him in my lifetime. I want to ask that man in the photo—first off,…DIV A; should he accepted the assignment that Saturday night? and when he did after looking at certain records why did donut become the lookout that Sunday vs another? When Div A was out scouting and at times I seen him with another man, I saw him like a rabbit all over up and down; no sweat for him…I also have another civilian question. We watched the retardant drop errs…how come the men did not make decision to leave when Sonny sensed the danger and was adamant for me to get going? why so late in the afternoon? Just to keep them safe in the black? If there was a conflict in communication which led to chaos and frustrations and Div Z and there was Donut and his location just seems like I watched not a solid safe day with the many elements and I just want to know from firefighters point of view…and I did learn a lot from Wayne and Holly and John MacLean and Dr. Ted Putnam and Norb Szczurek; a lot. I really think it is important for locals to get these kind of opportunities to walk with firefighters- it is a life changer and I know some behind the scenes compare here to Peyton Place but I also want to add the commenters here that are firefighters- you are priceless…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on March 29, 2016 at 6:35 pm
>> Joy A. Collura asked…
>>
>> why did donut become the lookout that Sunday vs another?
That has never been made clear in the evidence record.
Apparently, the ‘decision’ to even HAVE a ‘lookout’ for GM that day wasn’t even made UNTIL sometime between 11:55 AM and 12:25 PM… during that 30 minute face-to-face between Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown.
But we’ve also never gotten a complete accounting of exactly WHAT those men actually TALKED about for 30 minutes up there… other than some pissing and moaning about bad/no briefings, some radio issues, and whether Frisby and Brown could ‘give’ Marsh and Steed all the extra gatorade and ‘cubies’ ( snacks ) they had onboard the Ranger.
There has never been any real testimony about exactly WHY Marsh and Steed suddenly decided ( after already working the area for 2 hours ) they even ‘needed’ a lookout.. or whether that decision was actually a result of either Frisby and Brown ASKING them “Where’s your lookout?” and then having Marsh and Steed reply “We don’t have one”.
It’s still possible that either Frisby or Brown were then the ones to ‘inform’ Marsh and Steed “You’re SUPPOSED to have a LOOKOUT”.
As for the choice of Brendan himself… the story also goes that it is known that Brendan had been off for two days due to a bad cold… and Yarnell was his first day back on the line. He was ‘supposedly’ recovered from that cold but its highly likely that he was NOT… and by NOON that day… the 108 degree temps had already ‘toasted’ him to the point where Marsh and Steed felt he was no longer able to work like the rest of the men and so THAT is why they just sent him down to the ‘lookout’ mound.
Just to give him a ‘break’ from the heat.
Remember… Kyle Dickman’s book states that John Percin was the one that had suffered an ACTUAL ‘heat stroke’ just the day before when GM was working the Mount Josh fire.
So Marsh and Steed might have been very worried that Brendan would have his own ‘heat stroke’ that day unless they let him just go down and ‘rest’ on that lookout mound.
And Brendan might not know any of this.
Brendan had written “Hell YEAH!” as his ‘ready status’ on GM’s ready-board back at Station 7 that morning… and Brendan himself might have thought he was still ‘rarin’ to go’ circa noon… but Marsh and Steed might have known better.
Marsh and/or Steed might have noticed that by NOON that day… in 108 degree temps and recovering from a recent illness… Brendan’s “Hell YEAH!” had turned into a big “Fuck NO”… and they might have chosen Brendan to go down and sit on that lookout mound for his own good… whether he was aware of that or not.
Joy,
You are on the right track with why Brendon McDonough was chosen as the GMHS Lookout on June 30, 2013.
Keep pressing. Keep inquiring.
I shall RTS
Go to the lessons learned website, go into the Lessons learned database and read the Valley Fire Structure Protection (2015) document.
I am sure they meant it as a “We Done Good” document, but my read was more like “You Got Lucky Dummies”, but I will let you form your own opinions. Be interesting to see what GAry and Bob think…
14 guys going into a cul-de-sac (only 1 exit) doing structure protection in front of the incoming fire, suing hand tools and garden hoses from peoples houses…
Until the HERO mentality changes, more people will die… This could have easily been on the Twisp Fire..
were your ears ringing…just mentioned u last night
you and xxxfullsailxxx we thought of…we even went back and had a rocksteady…xxxfullsailxxx memory lane…too funny.
we went back to read your ol’ stuff.
I try to stay out of the weeds and only post on the stuff I know about…
but you are well liked and I know firefighters said they weed out like you said to read you-
Thank you Joy. I take that as a compliment..
After 33 years in doing this job, I have never had a fatality or serious injury that I feel responsibility for (I have never had a fatality on a fire, some major injuries by the victims own stupidity).
The day my decision making hurts or kills someone, is the day I toss the badge on the desk and clean out my personal belongings… End of story, no excuses,no scapegoat, just an “I fucked up, I gotta leave before a reoccurrence happens”
🙂
I do not care about trees. …we can plant more
I do not care about houses… Have insurance and rebuild…
I will NECER tolerate the loss of a firefighter…
Pretty simple “rules to live by”… No???
Yes
Reply to Rocksteady post on
March 29, 2016 at 7:35 pm
>> Rocksteady said…
>>
>> I do not care about trees…
>> We can plant more
>>
>> I do not care about houses…
>> Have insurance and rebuild…
>>
>> I will NEVER tolerate the loss of a firefighter…
>>
>> Pretty simple “rules to live by”… No???
Now there’s a ‘sane’ firefighter.
Fight it ( safely ) if/when you can.
Othewise… get the FUCK out of the way and go HOME to the people that love you.
Anyone who even EXPECTS more out of a civil-service employee has some huge screws loose.
So I take it you have never radioed your Type 1 Hotshots in the ‘field’ and said…
“You’ve got to HOLD THAT LINE at ALL COSTS!”
( Darrell Willis ).
Good way to put it–The cul de sac mentality fight the wild fire with Pulaski’s and water pistols.
Yup… Can probably get away with it 98 times out of a hundred, sort of like going cross country in unburned chaparral/manzanita to get to a bomb proof safety zone, but when you roll snakes eyes on that 2% look what the result is
I think “You Got Lucky Dummies!”
Well…let me put it another way. I don’t give a rat’s ass about how Mrs. Eric Marsh feels compared to how I feel about all of the children whose fathers are never going to come home from fighting something that did not have malice in its heart or a plan in its brain because it did have either one. That something was a wildfire that did exactly what it was predicted to do, exactly when it was predicted it would do it, and that fucking idiot Eric Marsh marched his crew in front of it.
Now…I am a bonafide Subject Matter Expert what life can be like when daddy doesn’t come from work. Amanda Marsh wrote me an email, which just one of many emails that I have gotten from people who do not like my position on this subject and told me that I broke Eric Marsh’s father’s heart. That is very sad. But do you want to know what breaks me heart? What breaks my heart is when I think of what Mrs. Jesse Steed told her very young children. “Daddy can’t come home because he’s in heaven.”
So…I think all of those allegedly tough straight talking wildland firefighters out there who have been hanging their heads in shame while they let Mrs. Eric Marsh tell them how to run their training sessions SHOULD STOP DOING THAT. And I am specifically talking about when they tell all of the new wildland firefighters how to stay safe out there and watch out for the number one cause of deaths among the best of the best…the now infamous hotshots. The number one cause of death is of course hotshot crew boss hubris. And for those of you who have been keeping score with me…there are 34 hotshots dead from crew boss hubris and 9 dead from the stupidity and incompetence of others.
Now I understand that none of these new recruits are going to be among the best of the best right away unless they know somebody who knows somebody like Grant McKee did. Or they have as few as one season that can be as little as three months with 40 hours of training behind them, but death from above relates to all wildland firefighters, it’s just that we are talking about hotshots in this example.
And just in case YOU people (the general taxpaying public) haven’t figured this out by now…the whole hotshot thing about them being the best of the best when it comes to every hotshot or even most hotshots, doesn’t exist and never has. YOU don’t put enough money into these crews to make that feasible in any meaningful way…so wise up.
You are getting what YOU pay for. And that is mostly okay because the truth is, most hotshots only need to know how to do three things, cut line (some say dig line), cut more line and stop cutting line. Other than that, if the crew boss what’s to know what you think (your shit) he or she will squeeze your head. Meaning…shut the fuck up and cut line until you are told to stop. It’s the hotshot crew leaders who are the best of the best. The crew boss, the squad bosses and the senior crewmen….people.
Hotshot crews are built around them, which is why Darrell Fucking Willis should never have propped open the back door and put the guy who just happened to be running the City of Prescott’s brush disposal crew who had pencil whipped (FAKED) hotshot creds in charge of a mighty Type 1A plus front line crew. And now Darrell Fucking Willis is going out as a full-fledged Type 1 ops chief in the sunset of his golden years where he is going to actually be making the plans of where young wildland firefighters go and what they do when they get there…FUCK ME, you can’t make this stuff up!
And by the way…all hotshot crew bosses, squad bosses or senior crewmen need to know in order to do their jobs and do them safely is;
1. How to cut line and burn it out and;
2. How to cut line and back fire it and;
3. How to cut line and burn it out and back fire it.
4. DON’T DO ANY OF THAT ABOVE OR IN FRONT OF A WILDFIRE!
It is all really pretty simple…and everyone goes home after every wildfire. End of story.
Corrections,
1. Well…let me put it another way. I don’t give a rat’s ass about how Mrs. Eric Marsh feels compared to how I feel about all of the children whose fathers are never going to come home from fighting something that did not have malice in its heart or a plan in its brain because it did NOT have either one.
2. And now Darrell Fucking Willis is going out as a full-fledged Type 1 PLANS Chief in the sunset of his golden years where he is going to actually be making the plans of where young wildland firefighters go and what they do when they get there…FUCK ME, you can’t make this stuff up!
Thank you…ops chief, plans chief…it’s all mumbo jumbo to me after they round filed the LFO in favor of bringing the round hats on board. And yes, Darrell Fucking Willis…Un-Fucking-Believable.
As I have said before, wildland firefighting is not particularly dangerous, exciting yes, challenging, yes, even fun…yes. However, I still believe that being a convenience store clerk is a much more dangerous job but it would take some real number crunching to find out just how much more dangerous. Everyone SHOULD go home after every fire…except in the case of a bonafide ACCIDENT.
Okay…what exactly is a bonafide accident? A widow maker (a loose branch shook loose by chainsaw vibrations) comes down on a sawyers head. One came down on a smokejumpers head I remember several years ago and killed him. Was that an accident…nope, that was a fuck-up. Why…you may ask? Because he didn’t have a spotter to watch for widow makers to pull him out of the way. There are several shots of me as a hotshot sawyer in my favorite video because it has a lot of photos of my favorite subject…me.
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
In all of those photos you will see I have my swamper watching for widow makers that can come down and kill me.
How about if a chopper augers into the side of a mountain…is that an accident? It depends. A few months ago I saw on the news where a lengthy (10-12 years) federal prison sentence for a helicopter executive was upheld because he had falsified the capabilities of his helicopter in order to get a contract flying wildland firefighters around and one of his choppers went down and killed several firefighters and a pilot.
If one does augers in, did it have the proper maintenance, was the pilot within the rules for a work/rest cycle, did the helislacks run the numbers right on weight, ambient temperatures, and elevations and did they secure the equipment, gear and tools in the baskets properly, did the pilot get briefed on power lines in the area or cables across a river, did the pilot look for and ask about those things before lifting off? Plus a whole bunch of other things. Could it be a bonafide accident…yes, but it is most likely a fuck-up.
How about if several young inexperienced wildland firefighters who don’t know how to control their adrenaline dumps get sent up a narrow dead end road without sufficient turn arounds above a wildfire…an accident or a fuck-up? You know the answer as well as I do. I could go on and on but why? You probably have already picked up what I’m putting down. There are very few bonafide accidents that seriously hurt or kill wildland firefights…mostly they get hurt and die from fuck-ups…theirs and mostly other peoples, people who should have known better.
I have tried to figure out reasons for the cover up of the fuck up at Yarnell.
16:33 on this link where Amanda Marsh publicly stands in front of radio host Tom Steele This is what you will have to deal with if you challenge or are perceived as a challenge to Amanda:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SgogCOhvHI
Sonny- like I said to you before…it’s lifestyle..ones likes and dislikes…perceptions…economy…your faith…a combination of many different elements so as its obvious this is what about a month after the tragedy…after hearing both sides there is stuff there I opt not to touch and say this when you google the man in video it does not seem to say much and only found Tom Steele in these links:
he said “How extensive is cronyism, nepotism and favoritism in small-town Prescott’s Yavapai County Courthouse? “My exposure to a few cases in Yavapai County, and knowing a few of the players in the court system, I’m dismayed by the ignorance of the law and the cronyism within our legal community,” said long-time Yavapai County political activist Tom Steele.”
http://www.examiner.com/article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse
http://www.chinoazfire.com/AgendaMinutes/2014/03152014JMAMinutes.pdf
http://centralyavapaifire.org/index.cfm?Section=9&PageNum=270
Below down in the comments I will explain an area I need to apologize- but maybe all of us should look at that video above…LOOK AT IT…this young lady is YOUNG…look at how God was there…He helped that interview indeed. Here is a young lady that just lost her best friend and husband and father to her kids and look how well she spoke with the power of God there- I saw it- so maybe Gary your adjectives are like Woodsman says— firefighters are not always nice— but maybe we can BE BETTER in how we communicate our thoughts. I know I stand first in line to fail as I lash when I could reach out and find out first…I have the biggest lessons to learn…one is I know who the man is at 16:33
Sonny. There was an ugly argument between him and her but do you remember where we were when we met him first? Yes. We were at Jersey Lily’s as you visited the mayor. It begins to make my jaw drop. Here is the radio host interviewer to Ashcraft asking her to name names and we are there in same room with mayor and him. Hmmm? Please explain that to me Sonny….
maybe there is something to her slogan… BE BETTER…less bitter and MORE better 🙂
I apologize so far to John Dougherty…Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 11:48 AM I wanted a moderated comment not to make it here…it is one of my rash moments versus looking into it—I have met in person and we communicated it through and I think I am the only female energy here without Marti Reed so I am kind of out of my element with my posts but I want you all to know I fully comprehend the lces and 10&18 and home language of woodsman…I just wish less “rat’s ass” and more on how the quad ride was today with that snappy wind-
I have a public question I kept quiet but I want to know-
Because I know that terrain BEFORE
when they cut there
how did they do it
did they burn in front of them…around them…behind them?
Sonny- like I said to you before…it’s lifestyle..ones likes and dislikes…perceptions…economy…your faith…a combination of many different elements so as its obvious this is what about a month after the tragedy…after hearing both sides there is stuff there I opt not to touch and say this when you google the man in video it does not seem to say much and only found Tom Steele in these links:
he said “How extensive is cronyism, nepotism and favoritism in small-town Prescott’s Yavapai County Courthouse? “My exposure to a few cases in Yavapai County, and knowing a few of the players in the court system, I’m dismayed by the ignorance of the law and the cronyism within our legal community,” said long-time Yavapai County political activist Tom Steele.”
http://www.examiner.com/article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse
Below down in the comments I will explain an area I need to apologize- but maybe all of us should look at that video above…LOOK AT IT…this young lady is YOUNG…look at how God was there…He helped that interview indeed. Here is a young lady that just lost her best friend and husband and father to her kids and look how well she spoke with the power of God there- I saw it- so maybe Gary your adjectives are like Woodsman says— firefighters are not always nice— but maybe we can BE BETTER in how we communicate our thoughts. I know I stand first in line to fail as I lash when I could reach out and find out first…I have the biggest lessons to learn…one is I know who the man is at 16:33
Sonny. There was an ugly argument between him and her but do you remember where we were when we met him first? Yes. We were at Jersey Lily’s as you visited the mayor. It begins to make my jaw drop. Here is the radio host interviewer to Ashcraft asking her to name names and we are there in same room with mayor and him. Hmmm? Please explain that to me Sonny….
maybe there is something to her slogan… BE BETTER…less bitter and MORE better 🙂
I apologize so far to John Dougherty…Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 11:48 AM I wanted a moderated comment not to make it here…it is one of my rash moments versus looking into it—I have met in person and we communicated it through and I think I am the only female energy here without Marti Reed so I am kind of out of my element with my posts but I want you all to know I fully comprehend the lces and 10&18 and home language of woodsman…I just wish less “rat’s ass” and more on how the quad ride was today with that snappy wind-
I have a public question I kept quiet but I want to know-
Because I know that terrain BEFORE
when they cut there
how did they do it
did they burn in front of them…around them…behind them?
http://www.chinoazfire.com/AgendaMinutes/2014/03152014JMAMinutes.pdf
http://centralyavapaifire.org/index.cfm?Section=9&PageNum=270
Even under the circumstances I saw Amanda’s behavior inappropriate. The man was asking a legitimate question to another person. Then to be attacked for his question in that manner? What about the others she confronts — and inappropriate manner she attacked you. Listen, Eric Marsh fucked up royally when he killed his crew due to negligent actions. Amanda and the world need to admit this and quit trying to make a silk purse out of a nasty pigs ear’s action. To keep saying that Eric, Jesse, and others involved in sending those men down there were doing heroic actions is to keep bullshitting the wild land fire fighting community and the public.
The evidence is out and known although Amanda and others keep denying the truth. This does nothing to help clean up what is wrong. When my kid had his arm removed from his body due to a faulty valve (he got caught up in a huge boat winch that literally tore it loose from his body) the facts came out. The equipment failure was known but not taken care of. You can bet that after the fact that the faulty valve was taken care of and maintained. You see, my son, being new to that work did not know the valve was even faulty, yet those bosses did and knew the danger if that thing got stuck and you were hooked into the mess. They knew also it was faulty for a long time and the danger but failed to inform him or take action to cure the fault. Their negligence cost his arm and that eventually killed him due to the meds and complications over time.
So all that keep dodging the responsibility of the negligence here at Yarnell incident site are allowing the error to continue. Those individuals that have the power to hide the facts and continue to do so are allowing this type negligence to continue. In my way of thinking they are culpable to various degrees in future deaths of wild land fire fighters. I would go further and say those that failed to take care of this incident on Friday evening and night are culpable of more–they failed to take care of an emergency condition that cost not only lives but half the town of Yarnell and millions in tax dollars. Amanda, Holly and others may not like my expressed opinions but in America I have every right to lay them out. I see that I am joined in these opinions by some very intelligent and experienced wild land fire fighting elite–those that are working now and those that have retired without the loss of even one of their wild land fire fighting crews. Also there are many civilians, local and some on this site that one would consider elite of mind, and to add to that even astute investigators of wild land fire deaths that agree. Now these opinions and theirs have been formulated after long thought and study of the condition–which it does not require if you visit the area that is being hidden and restricted from the interested individuals and the public that footed the millions of dollars this debacle cost.
You people ought to be ashamed of yourselves for hiding the truth of why those men are dead. Instead you brazenly work a net around the truth by your redactions, restrictions, and continual push to make yourselves and those you want to elevate look good. Bullshit, sorry but the world deserves to know what really happened at Yarnell from Friday, June 28, 2013 until Sunday, June 30, 2019 when 19 young men died in the worst way possible, and then the three year aftermath of the deaths of 84 in the Yarnell population and the so called “We will rebuild stronger and better” slogan here.
I just talked to Joy about Penny Duncan. She was the nice lady that worked at the Senior Center as a volunteer. We hauled her and her seven dogs, two cats and two parakeets down the hill that Sunday of evacuation. That lady had to move out some months after due to the fire events and now she lives afar off suffering from ill health due to lung problems. We have had suicides and attempted suicides (something like a shot though the chest missing the heart by inches), people that died of broken heart due to their home being lost and all their heirlooms, sadness, anger, people moving away, photos, memorabilia, irreplaceable possessions handed down for generations lost, friends moved away, and all that goes with these kinds of disasters. New cracker box homes. and money can not replace the lives and things destroyed in this so called incident which properly named in history will be known in history as a debacle of historical proportions.
Do I seem angry. Well I feel it. I am not a fire fighter, but have put out lightening strikes as a teen with my Dad, and can tell you would have went there singly if I had know the three local departments take these things as they did under the conditions of extreme fire danger. Tell me this was good heroic work at Yarnell and I don’t get it. I don’t think the loved ones do either–except a few that keep trying to paint a pretty picture with only
I did not finish the above and it posted before I reviewed it–but I think it is enough said– the end was trying to paint a pretty picture with only shit available.
Yes I am angry because millions in tax money had denied the area that tax money has paid for to only a few. How much more wrong can you get in America when people can do things like this. It is not that they don’t want us to go to the fence–it is that they want to hide the scene from the public eye- and maybe more so from the wild land fire fighter eye wise enough to see the negligence involved.
One important correction –those wild land retired fire fighting bosses I have talked to that should have read had not lost even one life for those under their command. They also were appalled at Eric’s action to take the men down into that basin.
That is a very scary public demonstration of just how aggressive Amanda Beno Marsh is Sonny…thank you. Now I know why so many allegedly tough wildland firefighters have been acting like they have manginas when it comes to dealing with her. She is scary. She was actually trying to control that reporter and keep him from asking a legitimate question with physical force.
I think you can see what Joy went through in court with the Judge having to tone Amanda down and I can imagine what that guy at the academy had to deal with–you have to admit she can get in your face.
Yes…I have to admit that. And I can tell that from listening to the recording, but seeing IS believing.
Gary,
I HAD to verify this because it’s almost too unreal to believe:
“And now Darrell Fucking Willis is going out as a full-fledged Type 1 ops chief in the sunset of his golden years where he is going to actually be making the plans of where young wildland firefighters go and what they do when they get there…FUCK ME, you can’t make this stuff up! ”
Yep. There it is:
http://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dispatch_logistics/overhead/imt/Rosters/SWA_ROSTERS_Type_1_Team_1.pdf
Shock collars is the answer to the question.
Woodsman
You forgot Identifying SAFETY ZONES
Find a good tennis court ———
Reply to Woodsman post on March 29, 2016 at 9:47 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I HAD to verify this because it’s almost too unreal to believe:
>>
>> “And now Darrell Fucking Willis is going out as a full-fledged
>> Type 1 ops chief in the sunset of his golden years where he is
>> going to actually be making the plans of where young wildland
>> firefighters go and what they do when they get there…FUCK ME,
>> you can’t make this stuff up! ”
>>
>> Yep. There it is:
>>
http://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dispatch_logistics/overhead/imt/Rosters/SWA_ROSTERS_Type_1_Team_1.pdf
Yep.
Good ‘ol ex-triple-dipper now only a double-dipper, structurally trained, ex-City Fire Chief, only went out as a sub as a Hotshot on a few fires, “God Guts and Glory”, “Hold that line at ALL costs”, “They DIED with HONOR!”, “God had a different plan for those men”, Darrell Willis.
———————————————————————–
ROSS – Resource Ordering and Status System Reports
SWA IMT – TYPE 1 – TEAM1
Southwest Area Incident Management Team – Type 1 – Team 1
Bea Day, Incident Commander
Catlog Item code: OSC1
Catalog Item name: OPERATIONS SECTION CHIEF, TYPE 1
Restriction Name: Qualified Only
Role: PRIMARY
Res Name: Willis, Darrell
Res Prov Unit Code: AZ-PNF ( Prescott National Forest )
Inc Name:
Inc Number:
——————————————————————–
And right underneath Darrell Wilis…
——————————————————————–
Catlog Item code: OSC1
Catalog Item name: OPERATIONS SECTION CHIEF, TYPE 1
Restriction Name: Qualified Only
Role: PRIMARY
Res Name: Clawson, Jason W
Res Prov Unit Code: AZ-KNF ( Kaibab National Forest )
Inc Name:
Inc Number:
————————————————————————-
Yep.
The man who had absolutely no ‘resource order’ ever showing
he was working the Yarnell Fire and ended up being the one
standing over the dead Granite Mountain Hotshots and the first
to confirm their deaths over the radio… but has never even
been INTERVIEWED by anyone… Mr. mysterious…. Jason Clawson.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Shock collars is the answer to the question.
There’s actually a much cheaper solution in order to be ‘better safe than sorry’ when engaging with this team… and it only involves THREE LETTERS…
UTF
WTKTT,
I picked this out for ‘clarification’
“only went out as a sub as a Hotshot on a few fires, ”
There’s no way Willis was ever on any hotshot crew. A city chief wouldn’t make it an hour. You must mean some type 2 crew a couple of fires. I doubt a city chief would have done much either way.
I know I’m being picky here but I don’t want anyone to believe he was a former hotshot in any way if he wasn’t.
Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Willis filled in on the GMHS several times during their first few years, and he did well since he was in good shape.
Thank you for the correction. I was wrong, wtktt and you were right.
Willis served on the crew several times as a fill-in their first few years and did well because he was in good shape. Just when I thought I knew something, I don’t.
I’m just typing it out in order to attempt to wrap my head around the idea. I believe you if you say it’s true… Houston, we have a problem.
Woodsman
My understanding of a Hotshot crew is not the same as everyone else in the world, apparently. It’s a strange world out there. Head’s up, young guys!
Woodsman
Fred,
When you say Willis did well as a hotshot, can you describe in what way(s) he did well? Did you work on fires that Willis was working as a hotshot and witness his performance? I’m having a hard time envisioning it so I’d like your help.
Woodsman
GARY SAID: And just in case YOU people (the general taxpaying public) haven’t figured this out by now…the whole hotshot thing about them being the best of the best when it comes to every hotshot or even most hotshots, doesn’t exist and never has. YOU don’t put enough money into these crews to make that feasible in any meaningful way…so wise up.
MY REPLY- keep in mind they became type one way too fast if you look at it all from day one. It is quite apparent that politics advanced them not experience in that county and in this state and I say that because we met other types like the GMHS and hear their firefighting history stories- Let’s look at Marsh’s neighbor Duane than to Darrell than just keep watching…as the start began to the end. Look at the positions and how things fell into place- I am not taking this as my view but what I learned hearing others-
There’s no question that there was a ‘stange ascension to leadership’ that went on regarding the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
If you read the personnel files obtained by ADOSH ( PUBLIC records ) you seen that Eric Marsh seemed to be sure that he would replace Duane Steinbrink as “Prescott Wildland Division Chief” when Steinbrink decided to go lay on a beach somewhere.
He didn’t.
Steinbrink obviously didn’t think Eric Marsh was ‘qualified’ to replace him and so they went out and brought a RETIRED guy in ( Darrell Willis ) who had hardly any experience at all in Wildland Firefighting and paid him $90,000 a year to do a job he was only ‘questionably’ qualified to do himself..
So that’s how strongly Duane Steinbrink felt that Eric Marsh was NOT ‘leadership material’. Thay ‘passed over him’ for a retired guy with almost no wildland firefighting experience at all rather than promote Marsh to ‘Wildland Division Chief’.
There is also the fact that even though ADOSH obtained all of Eric Marsh’s personnel records… the ONLY ‘job application’ that Eric Marsh ever really filled out for the City of Prescott was when he got involved with the early-incarnation “Prescott Fuels Crew”.
ALL of Marsh’s other ‘upwardly mobile’ promotions to Fuels Crew Chief… and then Type 2 IA Chief… and then his being ‘grandfathered in’ as a ‘Type 1 Superintendent’ just because they passed some ‘evalaution period’ ( We still don;’t know who the three ‘evaluators’ were that thought Granite Mountain was ‘ready’ for Type 1 status ) were a result of “standing still” and letting the changing status of the original “Fuels Reduction Crew” automatically ‘bestow’ those promotions onto him.
Somewhere, somehow, this ‘promoting from within’ was part of the tapestry of what was GOING to ( eventually ) happen in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
It’s complicated… but it’s REAL and SHOULD serve as a ‘Watch Out’ situation for other organizations following the same path.
Example: If/when a Type 2 IA crew is EVER deemed to be a ‘Type 1 Crew’… that ‘evaluation’ should happen BETWEEN fire seasons ( and not DURING… as it did with Granite Mountain )… and it should then be a REQUIREMENT that the Supervisory positions for that ‘new’ Type 1 organization be posted NATIONALLY, as required for ALL other Type 1 organizations.
If the people who were running the previous Type 2 IA Crew that is now going up to Type 1 status appear to actually be the most-qualified of the nationally-responding candidates… then so be it.
If not… then go with the BETTER candidates for your Type 1 Supervisor(s).
I wouldn’t say it should be a RULE that the people who were running the ‘Type 2’ that is now bumping to ‘Type 1’ should ever be ‘excluded’ from appying for the new positions with the ‘Type 1’… but it should never be a given that whoever was simply running the former ‘Type 2’ organization should AUTOMATICALLY become the leaders of the new ‘Type 1’ Nationally-available organization.
Just ADVERTISE the positions ( nationally )… and let the BEST candidates win.
wwtktt said: It’s complicated… but it’s REAL and SHOULD serve as a ‘Watch Out’ situation for other organizations following the same path.
MY REPLY- thank you; you said it better than I could…
I wish I could of sat in on this presentation-
https://www.facebook.com/201969799880168/photos/br.AboYPViWaH4u_oHqsi_d-BFC6RDc4YVLdKLmz2bFAWG0QwfLmK5U3pQuySC_f4v7_liT1SF0slxqTcibmttgaZxLQt0dNmLjflLGnEYdrmyCXEPkwvQShcn_nx-c_GlFyu0/987921871284953/?type=1&theater
How does one get to go to one of these?
http://contacts.mesacc.edu/alan.sinclair.jr
can anyone take these classes on safety?
I have been thinking a lot about what Sonny said this evening versus what WTKTT said, and I am going to have to go with Sonny on this one. Now granted…my information is anecdotal, but I see and hear people all of the time on my TV set who say they never have and never will get over the death of their child, but I see and hear very few people say they never have and never will get over the loss of a spouse through divorce, or death.
There had been a lot of that going around over the past few years (decades) since our War Of Choice in Mesopotamia, as n…that fucking Allah forsaken place has been fucked with a capital F for several millennium now, what in God’s name made the three stooges, Bush, Cheny and Rumsfeld think they could fix it with another invasion by a colonial power? Now of course my mother was an exception, there was never another man in her life after my father was killed which says something about either my mother or my father…or both.
Now if my dear wife of 40 years, although frankly it seems like it has been MUCH, MUCH longer on most days, left me…yes, I would grieve, but then I would go live like a laid off hotshot which is when I was the happiest in my life anyway except now my half of my retirement would be more than my unemployment insurance used to be so that would be a pretty sweet deal. But if one of kids where to be gone from my life tomorrow, well now…that would be something else entirely. So…
Now take Amanda Marsh for another example. If she would have lost HER son on the fire, I don’t think she would already have another son to replace him. Now don’t get me wrong Joy, I am very happy Amanda Marsh has found someone to replace Eric Marsh in her life which is why I think she should keep her big fucking mouth shut and quit running around the country telling the families who have 18 DEAD sons and trying to convince everyone else that Eric Marsh did not fuck up on the YHF and kill their FLESH & BLOOD.
If that too harsh?
Oh…and I forgot to tell all of you, since you are my closest friends and confidants, that if my dear wife did leave me and take our dogs with her…I sure would miss those dogs. So…
He danced for those at minstrel shows and county fairs
throughout the south
He spoke through tears of 15 years how his dog and him
traveled about
The dog up and died, he up and died
And after 20 years he still grieves
I’m sure Sonny is glad you are ‘on his team’ on this one… but I’m sticking with my ‘story’…
No one has the right to judge what someone else might mean, or HAVE meant, to someone else. It’s personal.
I know the story WTKTT about the dog and agree. A dog can become like a child and in so many ways are. My dog loves me no matter what and I value that dog even though I call it my PTSD dog. Joy and I rescued it from a pound so you never know the history of how the dog is brought up-abused or not by former owners–this one definitely suffers a degree of PTSD. But all the same attached itself to me so I can understand the love people have for their pets. I am sure if there is some sort of heaven as people want it to be, there will be plenty pets there. So WTKTT, point well made.
In the Yarnell affair there are many as you say with differing ways to go through the stages of loss of loved ones. It is a fact that people grieve in different ways, some never get the closure they need when such a tragedy comes about. We continue to loose folks here locally. Some of this is definitely due to the tragedy–suicide due to loss, broken hearts from lost homes and having to relocate,
It is sad that the truth never surfaced from the start and that it has taken so long to get past the farce put up to protect sensitivities. To do that has prolonged closure for many. It is always better to face early on what eventually will be found out anyway. There are to many future wild land fire fighter lives at stake when the facts and truth in an incident like this are hidden. Donut is only a small factor in this but a good example of a person who perhaps was coerced into hiding much of the truth, but he is only the tip of the iceberg since there are many more who do know the truth but hide it due to their fear–perhaps cowardice to reveal all. Use the excuse of sensitivity to loved ones but that does no justice to cleaning the errors and mistakes that can in the future be remedied and avoided so such tragedies can be avoided in the future.
There appears to be many who still want to paint the Yarnell fire fighting effort in a light where there is no blame. But there is blame, people do err and in this case the error was of historic proportions. Nineteen lives and the real reason they are gone must not be taken lightly.
Good voyage to Norb–a fire fighting ace. He is another of our good wild land fire fighters with a great legacy. The heros like Norb are now retired after a long history of wild land fire fighting and leaving those he commanded intact. We salute you Norb and those like you who do justice to the fire fighting legacy. Your concern for your men had saved them more than once.
Thank you Norb for the pure education and taking out the time to educate us. You will get credit when I make my fuels abatement map. Great idea. All the defensible space I did I can map it out by years and color shade code to properties so in case a fire happens again I have proof areas I made personally fire wise. Thank you Norb for taking the time and hear Bryan Smith story on Gary Corded or the human factor in listening a long time to homeowners who lost their homes and touring area to see who died and did not outside the 19 since the fire. Thank you for seeing from highway 89 that memorial trail for what it is. I stayed quiet in 2015 and will continue but it does disappoint me to relisten to audio to obviously know Amanda was not told that by me but it was told to Holly and A Sinclair. Shame to hear that plus why is it OK for you to speak about me that way behind my back but than call me friend. Guess I can lash when hurt or frustrated or backed in a corner but last I knew that was normal to tee it up versus bottle it up and pretend. Sonny I’m heading home. Had nice time with you all. Travel safe.
oh yeah and thank you John Dougherty because without this open page I would of never met and learned from Norb-
JOY SAID: but it was told to Holly and A Sinclair.
MY REPLY:I said above and I owe an apology…it was confirmed in person today that the source was not them but most likely from me blogging on here on topic so I am trying to find source to post it. I think her taking the time to meet vs online or text or email was spot on and forever grateful we could discuss it and remedy the fact she is not the source and him and probably something I wrote on here and it could be- so I am sorry. I guess I spoke because it hurts me to hear the audio and I am sure it does another- I do not get why Sonny encourages Gary on topic but I am not asking you to change me or vice versa but maybe we can be less bitter and BE BETTER-
I can tell you as soon as I typed it than when I saw it went into moderation I thought maybe I could “stop” it but John is right he is not here to edit or delete—I understand…I just was like why did he choose a Holiday and why did he feel it helps piecing the fire…I guess I am humiliated by the case because I never thought I would ever be in a court room so now the world can hear it versus they have to get their own to assess…plus I do not think Sonny comprehends HOW MUCH masculinity I am surrounded by that this female time was so appreciated to me. Thank you-
NOTHING on that comment…keep looking…I went back to that hike day and my post- here it was:
I agree with Bob Powers says
(http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vii-2/#comment-51722)
June 29, 2014 at 5:45 pm
I will not be here 6-30-14 and today at the Yarnell Memorial I met some real fine folks—firefighters- just the best people and saw Holly Neill— I left the Memorial after a short bit to see Doug and see if I can peak out on his property to where the back burn area was suppose to happen and until I review the photos and videos again after sitting on top of Doug’s area—I just cannot conceive it so PLEASE I ask all people that have photos and videos from 6-30-14 lawyered up or not SHOW THE RIGHT PEOPLE and that are investigative firefighters who feel as STRONGLY as me that the SAIR and the recent video on youtube by Mike Dudley just does a great disservice of the men and I am not wanting to think there was a back burn until you all realize YOUR information MATTERS!!!! Any media can write what they want but its YOUR information NEEDED to properly assess the YHF so PLEASE share—
Oh my it was hard to meet one person today who knew one of the GMHS dearly and I don’t want to get into but it was eery for me yet I understand WHY God led it that way- just so torn up this weekend with the losses, seeing Yarnell faces and Sonny/my properties in Vernon still in threat of loss—but AH is ok.
Also I miss my hiking pal. He seems so far away. I am going again to Glen Ilah and Yarnell tomorrow then to the Prescott 19 memorial at 4pm….it is just too hard to see the t-shirts sales and crap like that on this kind of weekend—seems insensitive but remember I am born July 1st so I am the extra-sensitive kind—keep you posted if I learn anything.
going down memory lane of archived chapters- sure miss Marti Reed…Hi Marti!
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
June 12, 2014 at 10:34 pm
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vii-2/#comment-49268
Yikes.
This really is like Joy Collura has said… though. The tree only falls after a certain number of hits with the axe.
Just keep swingin’… and takin’ chunks out… and eventually the whole thing comes down.
I never saw this comment but I was focused to posting on a cell on Sonny then—I get it—it was not pin-pointing just in general-
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vii-2/#comment-49234
Deborah Pfingston says
June 11, 2014 at 3:22 pm
I regularly follow this site. I have several comments that I keep to myself. I am glad that all of you are passionate about finding the truth of what happened that day. But please be careful at assuming you know what the boys were thinking, planning, doing, had done, knew or were capable of. Some of the assumptions make me sick with anger. You were not there. You did not know them. You are working on finding out the truth – please do this without condemning those you did not know or work with. I only want to hear you opinion of what they thought or did from those who did work with GMIHS. This will led to the truth faster if we do not have to swamp threw your personal misleading comments.
whatever happen to:
The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says
I chuckled STUCK IN THE PAST
I never saw that with Bob
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vii-2/#comment-49163
DAVID TURBYFILL says
June 5, 2014 at 4:10 pm
Bob, sorry that you and others are stuck in the past, please join the rest of us in the 21st Century. The fact that some current, veteran, and retired wildland firefighters have the idea that there is not an issue with the current fire shelter, this is a laughable thought. According to statistics from the US Forest Service, from 1910 through 2013 there were approximately 1091 total fatalities due to all wildland firefighting operations. During that same period 504 of them were due to burn over or entrapments. That is approximately 50% of all fatalities. Since 1994, the burn over fatality rate has dropped to approximately 20% of all fatalities. With the events of 2013, is now nearly 25%. The fire shelter most certainly is a problem
I want to give you an opportunity to see a test that I conducted at my facility. Here is a link to the YouTube video http://youtu.be/Ps-0cG70hps . Recently I received a copy of a memorandum from Dan Smith, Chair, National Wildfire Coordinating Group Executive Board, with the announcement of Fire Shelter Project Review based on a request from the Forest Service Washington Office of Fire and Aviation Management. They are directing that the US Forest Service, Technology and Development Center in Missoula, Montana initiate a review of the fire shelter system in 2014 instead of 2015.
I am reasonably happy that the US Forest Service is conducting a review on their Fire Shelter Systems. Although with that being said, they are only accelerating the review process and it could be another 3 to 4 years before anything comes of it. I do not believe that it needs to take a three-year study to find a suitable replacement of fire shelter materials and implementation. The materials shown in my video were procured within 30 days of the Yarnell Hills fire. The fire shelter system and materials should be a constantly changing and improving as material science progresses, not once a decade.
I have the belief that all Wildland Firefighting Agencies, with emphasis coming from USFS, BLM and the BIA, which set the standards for all the other wildland firefighting agencies, should more aggressively attack fires in the early stages. Here is a link to information supporting my belief that the Governing Agencies, Wildland Fire Commanders, Wildland Firefighters themselves, and Private Contractors are not aggressively taking action when the opportunity is there. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1427341110837674.1073741832.1425471334357985&type=3
The photos, noting the timestamps, and the subsequent loss of containment later in the day, makes me wonder how a crew that was flown in at approximately 10:30 AM on Saturday morning, the 29th with the fire barely showing smoke could lose a handle on this unless they were not effectively working or intentionally left the fire to burn fuels in an effort to effect a Fuels Reduction Policy in the wildland environment. This is where I believe that Wildland Fire Management and Policy cost the lives of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.
My professional background is manufacturing. In the manufacturing world, as a part moves through the shop and a defect is found during inspection or if a part fails in the field, as in an auto or plane crash, we have corrective action policies in place that look for and assess, Root Cause Analysis. In my opinion, the Root Cause of why the Granite Mountain Hotshots perished on June 30.
• Ineffective Initial Attack and Wildland Management on June 29.
• Inadequate Fire Shelters
In addition, there are other factors that did play a role in the outcome of Yarnell fire. For example, fire behavior, weather conditions, Incident Command, communications, locations of the crew, etc. for the outcome to be different. All these other factors would need to be removed. The two critical points named above remain the Root Cause
Yes. Holly I did send private link in chapter two and shows photo link —one seem to work and one not and I will look at the link to see if on RIGHT side mentions it but nothing yet but still looking down memory lane…and so much hard work was done here by Bob Powers/Gary and Marti/WWTKTT and more—
I never saw that post:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vi-comments/#comment-33409
Deborah Pfingston says
April 25, 2014 at 10:07 am
Mr. Powers – I am thankful that you are an OLD fire fighter. BUT GMIHS did not leave the black because they were ignorant of what was around them. They were ordered off the ridge -period. What needs to be discussed is who would have the power to insist they leave the black. Who would call them and require this movement? What are the human factors that these men worked under (City of Prescott & Forest Service)? They knew the last time they turned a directive down they were punished. They had eyes on the fire (Eric). They were told by someone that they had enough time to get to the ranch. Who possibly started a back burn that whipped up the canyon? Who is not talking that knows the truth? Who is being haunted by the memories of knowing a mistake was made? Who will finally step up and talk – standing up for the Granite Mountain Hotshots – finally stopping those voices that say it was them being cowboys? These men may have been young wildland firefighters but they knew the rules, they knew fire, they knew the fuels, they had their eyes on the fire, they would not take risks with their lives. I think a lot of good conversations are happening here – but – pressure needs to be placed on the so called leaders who do not accept the responsibility of leadership: “honesty”, “strength”,”courage”.
Joy spent a good couple hours with Holly. Holly after all is a wild land fire fighter with years in. I did not go. But I will forgo my comments since being a cow poke with no experience in what the gals do and what they say I best refrain.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on March 29, 2016 at 8:22 am
As usual… very well said, Sonny.
Grieving loved ones is never a ‘contest’. ( My grief is greater than yours ).
It is what it is… for each of us… a road that no one can walk for us.
You also just coined a very interesting ( and relevant ) phrase…
>> Charlie ( Sonny said )…
>>
>> “The EXCUSE of sensitivity to loved ones”.
People tend to forget… on the very DAY that the SAIT released its report… MANY of the ‘loved ones’ IMMEDIATELY ‘cried foul’ and one or two of them even stood up at the very press conference where Arizona Forestry was presenting this worthless document and SHOUTED at them ( on the stage ) “Why don’t you just tell us the TRUTH!”.
Even in THEIR ‘grief’… MANY of these ‘loved ones’ knew that the BEST path for them to ‘healing’ was to KNOW… as much as humanly possible… WHY this incident happened.
But it was ( at that time ) Arizona Forestry who WANTED the ‘loved ones’ to be so distraught and so beside themselves that they would not NOTICE they were ACTUALLY being BULLSHITTED.
And I think that is very much still the case.
“We were only thinking of the poor pitiful grieving loved ones” is SUCH and easy, easy ( as you described it ) EXCUSE for (supposedly) explaining nefariousu behavior like…
1. Cameras and cellphones going ‘missing’ from the official POLICE evidence chain… but still ending up back in the hands of “loved ones”.
2. Important “key witnesses” NOT being asked any ‘hard’ questions during their interviews… even when you know that THEY know more than they are telling you about what happened.
3. Withholding ‘evidence’ and photos and Unit Logs and videos and other testimony from valid ‘Open Records’ or Freedom of Information Act ( FOIA ) requests.
4. Trying as best you can to ‘suppress’ any additional evidence or testimony or ‘truth’ from coming out and doing all you can to ‘disredit’ both “loved ones” and members of the public when they DO discover ‘new evidence’.
( I could go on ).
It is SO, SO easy to say that you were ( and are still ) doing ALL kinds of ‘nefarious’ things for some kind of ‘greater good’ like “for the sake of the poor, poor pitiful grieving families”…
…but NEVER admit that you are only talking about a SUBSET of these same ‘loved ones”. The ones of your CHOOSING… and that you have also chosen to treat SOME of the ‘other loved ones’ like shit.
Some of the ‘concern’ for the ‘loved ones’ has, in fact, been sincere.
But a large part of it has been because of a ANOTHER ‘agenda’.
Admit no guilt. Make it go away.
Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.
Thanks for this post WTKTT. I was beginning to think Amanda was the only mouthpiece for the loved ones. That some did stand up and ask for the truth I had not known. I had believed they were all silent except I had known Turbyfill doing the work on the fire blankets and his deep hurt over the loss of his son.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
March 28, 2016 at 8:14 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I saw a YH Fire presentation last week that used a new tyerm to me.
>> The term “SUGGESTIVE EVIDENCE” was used when the presenter,
>> a WFF on the YH Fire, talked about finding about half a dozen
>> chainsaw-cut brush stobs leading down toward the BSR.
What DAY did this ‘presenter’ say he/she actually ‘found’ these ‘stobs’?
And what was he/she doing out there even looking for them?
On a ‘lunch break’ and nothing better to do?
Is this someone who ended up on the SAIT and had a REASON to be in that location looking for just this sort of thing?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The presenter’s photos definitely revealed recent chainsaw cuts.
How ‘recent’?
What DAY were the photos taken?
Were the photos taken the same day he/she supposedly first observed these ‘stobs’… or later?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The presenter GPS’d these stobs
WHEN? Same day as he/she first ‘observed’ them? Or later?
>> and they lined up fairly close to and parallel to the dozer line constructed
>> to retrieve the deceased GMHS.
Explain ‘fairly close’.
Feet? Yards?
Was any part of the actual ‘dozer push’ visible in the photographs along with these ‘stobs’?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The GPS location and alignment of the photographed chainsaw-cut stobs
>> I saw, likely were NOT due to any suppression efforts near the BSR
>> along the dozer-pushed road.
Well… that’s why I asked you to explain your FIRST description.
That they were “lined up FAIRLY CLOSE and PARALLEL to the dozer line”.
This SECOND statement of yours seems to contradict your FIRST statement.
So ‘how close’ was ‘FAIRLY CLOSE’?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The presenter said he talked to WFF’s that were in the BSR area on 30 June 2013
What TIME?
>> that heard chainsaws and yelling above them.
If ‘the presenter’ was trying to say that whoever he/she had ‘talked’ to was suggesting they heard GM out in the canyon… then that totally contradicts direct testimony from Lee and DJ Helm ( to ADOSH ) that they NEVER ‘saw’ ( or heard ) ANY firefighters near or around their property in the hour or so leading up to the tragedy… even the whole time they were OUTSIDE and putting up their animals.
Zero. Zip. Nada.
Not even these ‘WFFS’ that seem to be reporting they were ‘there’ in that same timeframe to hear any ‘chainsaws’ or ‘yelling’.
So we are back in ‘rumor land’ again with stuff like this.
Unless you want to tell us more… there’s no way to even BEGIN to ‘verify’ any of this.
Do you happen to know what these FFs were even DOING ‘in the BSR area’ at whatever TIME this was? What was their ‘assignment’?
And how/when did THEY get ‘out of there’… or did THEY ‘ride it out’ at the BSR?
WTKTT,
The presenter is an experienced WFF with a keen interest in the YH Fire tragedies and wants to discover truths like the rest of us. He was on his own time and made several trips to the site and BSR area.
I do not know what day it was when he took the photos. The photo and GPS coordinate of individual stob was the same day. He did clarify that only ONE of four stobs found was one that he, the presenter, located with the others being ones Holly Neil located. In other words, Holly Neil originally got the stobs that she allegedly ‘found’ from Dr. Ted Putnam.
The stobs ‘fairly close’ to and ‘parallel to’ the dozer line were BOTH – ‘fairly close’ and parallel to the dozer line. How many feet? How many yards? He said “it varied.” He said he chose the ‘easiest route’ for the dozer, which would also likely have been the easiest route for anyone hiking the same route. It was presented as ‘suggestive evidence’ and not conclusive.
Who heard and saw the WFF’s yelling and chainsaws near the BSR? An experienced WFF from one of the Phoenix area Type I Engines that was at the BSR as a ‘political presence.’ He was high-pointed (not their Lookout) where he could see The Shrine area dozer line and the ridge running down to what would eventually become the deployment/fatality site. In other words, he had a great view!
He heard chainsaws and WFF’s yelling above the BSR early in the morning and early afternoon. He said he could see ‘hardhats and yellows’ in the brush. The chainsaw technique and style he heard was based on his wildland experience, and he felt it was similar to how a Hand Crew would cut, rather than an Engine Crew. Once again, it is merely ‘suggestive evidence.’
You posted: “If ‘the presenter’ was trying to say that whoever he/she had ‘talked’ to was suggesting they heard GM out in the canyon… then that totally contradicts direct testimony from Lee and DJ Helm ( to ADOSH ) that they NEVER ‘saw’ ( or heard ) ANY firefighters near or around their property in the hour or so leading up to the tragedy… even the whole time they were OUTSIDE and putting up their animals.”
It does NOT contradict what the Helms’ said. I have no reason to doubt the high-pointed WFF heard chainsaws and yelling and saw ‘yellows and hardhats’ in the brush above the BSR, in the morning and early afternoon hours. No doubt whatsoever.
I’m sure that the Helms’ didn’t hear anything “in the hour or so leading up to the tragedy.” Big difference there between morning and early afternoon and when the Helms’ were outside in the later afternoon.
All this was presented as ‘suggestive evidence’ – nothing more, nothing less. Take it for what it’s worth.
How did the Type I Engine get there and how did they get out of there? Really? They drove in and they drove out. They did NOT ‘ride it out’ in the BSR! Way too much drama.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on March 29, 2016 at 11:51 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> How did the Type I Engine get there and how did they get
>> out of there? Really? They drove in and they drove out.
>> They did NOT ‘ride it out’ in the BSR! Way too much drama.
You could have avoided even the ‘questions’ if you has just said, in the first place, that the TIMEFRAMES you were talking about weren’t even anywhere NEAR the actual deployment/burnover of Granite Mountain.
Thanks for letting us know that this ‘yelling’ and the ‘chainsaws’ you say someone said he heard someone else say ( if you lost count… that’s 3 persons removed ) was NOT in the timeframe of when it could have possibly been anyone from Granite Mountain.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I’m sure that the Helms’ didn’t hear anything “in the hour or
>> so leading up to the tragedy.” Big difference there between
>> morning and early afternoon
Yes, it is. VERY big difference… because it’s also a FACT that Lee and DJ Helm weren’t even AT their property until later in the afternoon, after returning from running errands.
So yea… now that we know you are NOT talking about any kind of timeframe when Lee and DJ Helm were actually there ( in the hour leading up to the deployment )… then of course it makes sense that they might not have ‘seen’ or ‘heard’ this activity.
What still ( obviously ) doesn’t make any sense is who the fuck would have been out there ( wherever ‘there’ really was ) doing that kind of work… for whatever reason… or that there would be no record of this work appearing in ANYONE’s Unit Log or interviews with ADOSH.
You are describing too much activity taking place by too many men for it to have been completely ‘off the radar’.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> All this was presented as ‘suggestive evidence’ – nothing more,
>> nothing less. Take it for what it’s worth.
Of course I will.
I’ve just got my usual ‘dentistry tools’ out and trying to figure out if it’s WORTH anything at all.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Thanks for letting us know that this ‘yelling’ and the ‘chainsaws’ you say someone said he heard someone else say ( if you lost count… that’s 3 persons removed ) was NOT in the timeframe of when it could have possibly been anyone from Granite Mountain.”
Say what? “…. NOT in the timeframe of when it could have possibly been anyone from Granite Mountain.” Really? And why not?
The GMHS had all day to accomplish such a task because they were there in the area. Once again, it is merely ‘suggestive evidence.’
You also posted: “What still ( obviously ) doesn’t make any sense is who the fuck would have been out there ( wherever ‘there’ really was ) doing that kind of work… for whatever reason… or that there would be no record of this work appearing in ANYONE’s Unit Log or interviews with ADOSH.”
Those that heard chainsaws that day and saw WFF’s SUGGESTS that SOMEONE(S) were out there using chainsaws.
Just because there is NO ‘official’ record, e.g. ‘unit logs or interviews’ and such, does NOT preclude that possibility.
I take for what it is, ‘suggestive evidence.’
WTKTT,
Please recall from the many written and recorded sources which you are so fond of, regarding the GMHS traveling their ‘PREDETERMINED ROUTE.’
This implies that (1) the route was scouted, (2) the route was marked, i.e. flagging, and (3) the route was cleared, i.e. a ‘P-line.’
I would think that the GMHS did at least some things properly with their ‘PREDETERMINED ROUTE,’ in spite of all the things they should NOT have done – like leave their perfectly good Safety Zone at the worst possible time, rather than arguing over the Crew Net about staying or leaving.
Now you are starting to sound like Holly Neill.
She still believes that just the phrase “predetermined escape route” and Eric Marsh’s quote ( on the radio ) of “escape route from this morning” represents some kind of ‘evidence’ that Granite Mountain had been ‘good little hotshots’ and had actually SCOUTED the route to the BSR sometime that morning.
The evidence doesn’t support that.
Read Brendan McDonough’s ADOSH interviews (plural).
In BOTH of his (separate) ADOSH interviews… Brendan confirms that the moment he and GM finally arrived up at the anchor point the first thing that morning… Eric Marsh gave them all a briefing the moment they arrived and Marsh was already calling the two-track heading south towards the ranch a ‘predetermined escape route’. THAT ‘morning’. As soon as they ‘arrived’.
So that’s where “escape route from this morning” comes from.
Marsh was talking about what he TOLD the crew the moment they arrived at the anchor point ‘that morning’.
Marsh had already seen that the two-track headed ‘south’ to the BSR when he and Gary Cordes were looking at Dean Fernandez’s iPad at the 7:00 AM briefing… and Cordes pointed at the BSR and said “That’s your predetermined Safety Zone”.
And Cordes added… “We also looked at the roads and stuff that went there”.
So before Marsh even left that 7:00 AM briefing… he ALREADY had been told the BSR was his “predetermined Safety Zone”… and that the two-track he had also already seen on the iPad was the viable ‘escape route’ to reach it.
Hence… “escape route from this morning”.
Something I must say –It is a hell of a lot harder to loose a son than a husband which you can easily replace with a boy friend or new husband. I had 6 wives, and I am over all them, but my son Ted I will never get over his loss. I grieve him greatly but those 6 wives are gone and forgotten–they all have new men and doing well–and I am happy for them.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) March 28, 2016 at 8:22 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> Something I must say –It is a hell of a lot harder to loose a son than a husband
Well… then something I feel compelled to say as well.
That’s pretty harsh… and not for you to say.
No one can every really know how much someone might mean to someone else.
Only that person truly knows.
Not sure what you mean WTKTT. Had you lost a son? Had you lost a wife? That is when you can speak on the subject. I have lost both a son and daughter and wives. The kids come before wives and husbands–at least in my way of thinking.
There is something else, I think after three years we need to quit riding the sympathy wagon and get down to the brass tacks. We want the truth out of this. I see that many have the heart break of loss–I have that and have shed enough tears for my loss–now is the time to get the truth out. That in the beginning would save lives and change what caused the death of 19. Screwing with the system to protect the reputations of an erratic system will not do if you want to save lives, tax money, and resources. WTKTT can correct me anytime–but I am looking at the reality of seeing a sick game. Making a $670,000 parking lot to a restricted trail to nowhere and playing sympathy to gain and giving awards for a faulty fire fighting actions does not set right with me nor any other person who knows we have been handed a bowl of shit about the heroics of this fire.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) March 28, 2016 at 9:01 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> Not sure what you mean WTKTT. Had you lost a son?
>> Had you lost a wife? That is when you can speak on the
>> subject. I have lost both a son and daughter and wives.
>> The kids come before wives and husbands–at least
>> in my way of thinking.
You’re the last person I’d ever want to pick a fight with, Irish, but I just had to call you out on that one.
It doesn’t matter how many loved ones I have had to bury.
It doesn’t matter how many loved ones YOU have had to bury.
Neither one of us has the right to say what the loss of someone might really mean to someone/anyone else.
It’s personal.
Como se dice? Pues, muy bien. Nosotros somos hermanos. La vida es no mas que un puno de tierra. Pero mi Corazon duele mucho. Por Dios es que su Nino nunca muere antes su padre. We are brothers–but for God my heart hurts much since no child should die before his parent.
While true it is that no one can estimate the hurt of loss of another. These are truly personal feelings–I have seen people who do not love even their own child. So I concede to that.
missed –the life is no more a hand full of dirt–an old Mexican -Irish saying–La Vida es no mas que un puno de tierra.
wwtkttGo raibh maith agat-
Ma’ lorg an fhirinne dealraitheach don roinnt mar stirring an phota, ansin is e’ an rud anha’in a dheanamh a chuardach le haghaidh nios mo’ spu’no’ga.
Well I did say I have about a 4th grade education in wild land fire fighting. Then I have a friend with great experience and credentials say well then you would make a great division boss.
That last comment was made in fun Gary.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
March 28, 2016 at 9:58 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> wwtktt… Go raibh maith agat-
>> Ma’ lorg an fhirinne dealraitheach don
>> roinnt mar stirring an phota, ansin is e’
>> an rud anha’in a dheanamh a chuardach
>> le haghaidh nios mo’ spu’no’ga.
Yes, Joy, I agree.
Old Irish saying.
“When simply seeking the truth begins to be described by others as ‘stirring the pot’… the thing to do is start passing out more spoons.”
Whoah…very wrong…you OK? I know you are sad about your son but no need to compare…its all awfully sad
What do you know about zombies? What does this have to do with wild land fire fighting?
Now that the investigation is over, no more blame game, we know who did it.
that’s enough.
AMANDA says
August 1, 2013 at 12:34 pm
This article angers me to no end. Our town if devastated by the loss of these men and to have someone pass the buck by playing the blame game is absolutely horrible! I think before anyone else opens their mouth they need to wait until ALL reports/investigations have been done.
Happy Birthday Turbyfill.
Woodsman–thanks for your input. Here is the thing–clean up the shit on the Porch–we need to know how. Problem is we got people with agendas, we got people that tell us the Academy that trains fire fighters is more worried about sensitivities than truth (allow outside people to stop talk about GMHS mistakes) and I can bet you that when the real men that know wild land fire fighting speak they will say they are history–we now have scientific methods that put these old fellows out of focus. Meantime the GMHS whole crew is dead–but then the scientific methods do not explain that fact or the fact that those men took orders that seasoned (by that I mean retired bosses that never lost one man) are aghast at their actions.
I am called a mis fit–that one is true since I am a true zombie. I have come back from the dead and I wish every one of those 19 could with my son but that will not happen–what better happen is the truth so this kind of shit on the porch does not.
To clean up the shit we found on the porch:
Figure out how it got there. Who, When, Why, How? ALL of the contributing factors that led to the physical presence of a turd on the porch of the house that many before us built. And then scrub like hell.
To prevent another pile from being deposited on the porch in the future:
Dismantle 90% of the directives, procedures and protocols enacted in the last 35 years in wildland firefighting in the United States.
Start with chucking the fire shelter is the garbage can forever. Put them all through a fucking wood chipper.
Eliminate the false concept of escape routes and safety zones and stick with “one foot in the black.”
Reverse the notion that anyone with a pulse who attends a couple of S-clases and takes a pack test from Anywhere Fire Department USA is allowed to operate in a leadership position on a wildfire. I’m talking ANY leadership position.
Fit all Battalion Chiefs across the country with a shock collar with radio transmitter that activates at level 11 if they attempt to travel more than 25 feet from their chief’s vehicle.
Train wildland firefighters to win every single time instead of laying down in a ‘shelter’.
Line up all the citizens of the nation whose homes are indefensible AND believe that wildland firefighters should put their lives on the line to save it – line up ALL of them and one-by-one slap them 17 times across the face with a new pair of FSS Forest Worker gloves (replenish gloves and slappers as needed.)
Tell FEMA to stick to floods,earthquakes, or whatever but stay the HELL out of wildfire.
Never allow anyone in a leadership position to tell anybody what to do if they have not had to do it themselves in the past.
I can go on for pages…but this is what I would do on the first day. Have to save something for day 2…
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Tallyho, why don’t you tell us how you really feel.
Please reconsider Escape Routes, we definitely need those. I’m reposting the Wildland Fire LLC video the several WFF’s recounting their harrowing experiences on fires.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2korLntp75A
The Chief of the USFS wants the DHS and FEMA to take over wildland fire suppression because of the so-called ‘Mega-Fires’ that he deemed as ‘natural disasters’ so that the USFS won’t have to fund them any longer.
How about massive fuel loadings, IMT incompetence, IMT indecisions, and the like being responsible for the alleged ‘Mega-Fires.’
RTS,
If I missed the mark, in your opinion, on only 1 point…I’ll take that as a small victory. I’m going to stick with 1 foot in the black. How about an ‘escape route’ to the black…which is right there beside us, does that count? I know what your saying. It’s just that I’m hardheaded. Bob will vouch for me and he is smart enough to live in Idaho so, yeah, there’s that.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
No doubt about you being smart. I like ridges a lot and there are many times that you just cannot go direct without trenching and holding issues. And only Hot Shots or good Type 2 IA Crews and Type 2 Crews can hold and mop-up those firelines.
Now of you’re talking ‘one foot in the black’ on fired out INDIRECT line, then I’m with you.
RTS,
Yeah, you’re right about that. I’m accustomed to bringing the black with us on indirect by torch and usually behind a dozer. I added the shelters through the wood chipper comment for you – I knew you would appreciate that. Thanks!
Woodsman
Still the same Concept Bring the BLACK with you.
When in this new undiscovered land of Extended drought going to indirect line is a Safety Night Mare.
Anchor and stay as direct as you can keep the Black close.
Warning, Warning, Warning—Unburned fuel between you and the Fire. Immediate and necessary close Safety Zones
The Black is always a steep away.
I will confess I have been on a lot of indirect line and Have burned (Back Fired) a whole hell of a lot of it but never in these type of Drought Conditions. As a Back firing Specialist we spent a lot of time planning any indirect line and burn out.
Building said line by hand or Tractor is a serious situation that
MUST ALWAYS HAVE LCES and a very alert Overhead.
These Droughts have changed the way we need to look at Line construction and Safety.
When in Doubt go direct. Anchor and flank.
Fire Shelter Best it can do is 1000 Degrees.
A running blow torch according to current info is reaching over 2000 Degrees.
The conclusion is simple—- Plan to never use it.
The Fire shelter when first built could withstand 600 Degrees
The Shelters that GM had were not much better.
Any questions??????????
Woodsman You are on the right track. Ask a simple Question.
How many Fire Fighters would Change their tactics if they did not have a Fire Shelter? Would they be more alert to the LCES?
Bob,
You got to the meat of the matter right here:
“How many Fire Fighters would Change their tactics if they did not have a Fire Shelter? Would they be more alert to the LCES?”
The answer to that question is one that will illuminate the fundamental flaw of the whole idea of having the ‘safety blanket’ in use in the first place. The way the shelter is portrayed in training and doctrine, my hunch is a whole hell of a lot of wff’s are OVER-RELIANT on it’s use. They are duped into thinking it will provide a ‘margin for error.’
I never wanted to use that thing. I have trained many and always have a feeling that it’s wrong when doing so. The one time I could have justified using it, I didn’t because I knew that would indicate that I royally screwed the pooch and I didn’t want to have to explain myself to supervisors. I was a new guy.
I’m far, far from knowing it all but I damn sure know light years more than I did back then,
Woodsman
Need to spend some time reviewing what Canada has done and the outcome of there change to no Fire Shelters.
I think there is some really shocking evidence that can be evaluated about Canada’s WLFF.
Mike from Canada has a lot of the info if he is reading and would jump in.
Bob and Woodsman,
Excerpts take from an article titled:
“Why emergency fire shelters aren’t used in Canada” and a subtitle: “Canada takes a much different approach to fighting wildfires than the U.S. does.”
By Emily Chung, CBC News Posted: Jul 03, 2013 5:02 AM ET
“NO FIRE SHELTERS IN CANADA SINCE 2005
In Canada, fire shelters are no longer used at all. Marc Mousseau, chair of the fire equipment working group for the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, said they were never widely deployed, and B.C. became the last province to stop deploying them in 2005.
Lucy Tower, manager of B.C.’s fire equipment depot, told CBCNews.ca Tuesday that the decision was made because the province’s firefighters are never put in a situation where they would need to deploy a fire shelter. Much of the terrain where wildfires occur in Canada is also densely forested.
That type of terrain is unsuitable for using the shelters, said John Flinn, equipment coordinator for the New Brunswick provincial fire warehouse.
“You have to have some place open … where you can get away from adjacent fuels,” he said in a phone interview Tuesday. “There’s no place in the Maritimes you can do that, really.”
In general, Canadian wildfire fighters are equipped with the view that firefighters should avoid putting themselves in harm’s way to begin with.
For example, there is a national standard for their heat-resistant clothing, which is far lighter than what urban firefighters wear, Mousseau said.
“The intent of the clothing is that if you do get into trouble, it will save you as you are leaving,” he says.
Mousseau noted that bush and forest firefighters are in their clothing for up to 16 hours a day, several days in a row, so they can’t wear anything heavy or bulky.
Less protective clothing, in many cases, may actually be safer, said Flinn, as too much protection dulls the senses.
“If you can’t feel the heat on your hands,” he said, “you’re going to be in harm’s way longer than maybe you should be.”
Canadian forest-fire fighters don’t carry breathing equipment such as respirators either. Mousseau said that’s partly because of the nature of what is burning. In an urban setting that may include plastics and toxic chemicals, while the fuel tends to be mainly plant matter in a grassland or forest fire.
But it’s also because, like fire shelters, special breathing equipment isn’t considered necessary.
“Our general consensus is that if you can’t breathe, you should leave,” he said.
Communication, planning are key
In fact, to stay safe, wildfire fighters rely far less on their protective equipment, and far more on communication and planning, Canadian fire officials say.
All wildfire operations are carefully planned and mapped based on where the fire is and is expected to move, and all firefighters are thoroughly briefed in advance and are in constant communication with a command centre, where the weather conditions are monitored and where everyone knows where each firefighter is and should be, New Brunswick’s Flinn said.
A key part of every fire operation, he added, is an established escape route to a safety zone, an area nearby that is safe from the fire because of its natural geography, or perhaps because it has already been burnt over.
Meanwhile, Mousseau said improving communications technology, such as better satellite phones, GPS and instant messaging, has also “certainly” improved safety for wildfire fighters, by making it possible to change and communicate plans on the fly based on the latest data.
“Accurate information is more readily available.”
And this gem from a CDF Helitack WFF that deployed his fire shelter on the California Valley Fire (September 2015) along with four others, all receiving serious burns on their faces and hands.
“It wasn’t until the weather conditions changed that we felt like we weren’t in a good spot,” Matteoli said. “That was when the northeast side of that ridge went off and sent a fire front at us.”
No shit? You mean changing weather conditions mean a change in fire behavior?
One of the main points of the article is that the WFF were burned because the plastic bag containing the fire shelter, melted making it difficult to open.
How about ignoring the multiple Watch Outs and failing to heed The WFF Rules being a causal factor.
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/4610899-181/why-did-valley-fire-crews?gallery=4568969&artslide=38
Bob and Woodsman,
And another titled: “Personal fire shelters are not used in Australia.”
http://www.smh.com.au/national/personal-fire-shelters-not-used-in-australia-20130702-2p9m2.html
Thanks Bob–Yes that 320 acres now given to the widows to keep fire fighters like you and other concerned citzens out of the area so they can not see the conditions and whys and hows of 19 deaths was restricted June 16, 2013. That was two weeks before the deaths of the men and quite a long time before the 320 acres was handed over to the widows. The restriction was we are told in that very area extreme to the top so that you should not even be caught smoking a cigarette in the area. So dense and dehydraded area certainly deserved that classification and restriction.
Three fire departments knew of that area, must have surely known also the danger of that lightening strike getting out of the boulder area and into that brush it would become a devastating wild fire that no amount of resources or men could detain. Yet while it is in the boulders it is easily contained. A man retired and successful commander of wild land fire crews stated to me no matter it was in the evening–even better to contain a small fire like that at night since it is cooler and knowing the danger in that particular terrain he and a few men have contained such lightening strikes quickly. He said to me, yes that would be easily tackled and to his opinion this was a mistake to allow it to burn for any length of time. Immediate action should have been taken.
Gary and I agree that Marsh erred badly even to deserving heavy felony charges if he had survived. Yet Gary, do you not think there was negligence on the part of people who could have but did not take action considering their position and knowledge of what might happen if they did no action? Would this in some degree mitigate the actions of Marsh and Steed and whomever might have commanded them to do structure work?
The damage is done of course–lives, millions spent, broken hearts, and sadness and sickness from this mess. No one wants to take responsibility but there is responsibility and unless it is faced and dealt with from the truth we will continue to see these negligent actions create these tragic events. Thanks Gary for being so bold and forward with the way things are.
Damn good way to train. What do you think of putting your men through the manzanita maze once a week to see if they can improve their times. Get them to hate what would kill them if they get caught in it with a wild fire near–at least to know how much time they have to live if the fire changes direction.
Question to Donut only
and only you can answer this-
Was Anthony Michael Rose the one who was to be the look out that day and you were put into that position on 6-30-13?
That has been my question for a long while and now I got it off my chest-
I truly wish without the MISSING ELEMENTS we could simmer down with the blame and all this horseshit and pay close attention to me…I watched Eric Marsh that day from morning until afternoon-
he was not “hot dogging” it solo and on his own at times to that day YET that individual NEVER made it to the SAIR; how come?
Why discredit Eric Marsh when there is a lot of information not yet shown-
I get you Bob Powers and RTS and Gary but again I do not believe Marsh was at the ranch and I do believe he felt hopeless and frustrated and helpless due to radio concerns and miscommunications-
I would rather lean that there were MANY incidents within the incident on this yhf but 19 died so why do more paperwork- No fault- nothing wrong here- Eric had priors and that’s enough but it is not enough…it was a multitude of chaos—misdirection—a lot of frustration—it is very SAD that not a soul LIVING that was on the fire that I am not the only one and others know that there is ones who should take responsibility on the information you keep withheld and these radio problems was generally addressed in the SAIR but there was more there—I want to make it CLEAR that none of these men would want people to point fingers- they would like for current & future firefighters to know the reality to that day so it never happens again.
Also never forget there could of been an incident with an incident that was not reported from the GMHS because enough chaos/frustration and bullshit happen that day and they were tired and just wanted to get off the hill and maybe just maybe Marsh main concern was his men and getting them safe off that mountain and others chaos messed with that task- SOOOOO please know I will never stand with you all there and we need to stop “scapegoating” Eric Marsh and what others feel he did in 10&18/LCES errors…and focus to the assholes who feel some of us who do know some details have to carry that—and it should be YOU who should SPEAK UP!
Also someone out there that reads this who claims to be my friend…I know what you are doing to me behind the scenes- I will state like I do—have your fun; whatever.
and what I mean is maybe the 19 would be alive today if others creating the frustrations and chaos around Marsh (the other contributing factor) screwing with Marsh’s plans- then those should talk because if we institutionalize it was Marsh and Steed and not the others included and blame just the dead- than the system will continue breeding lies-
Well I did learn I am a called a mis fit–that is cute and who are those that don’t fit into my cowboy ways? Cookie cutter types of course. I am an optimist too. I do believe we will get to the truth despite the deception.
Ok that was a beautiful way the 19 are planted in the cemetery at Prescott. If you have not visited that grave site you should. There is no restriction there and all can pay their respects. I replaced the plastic flowers that had blown out of Marshe’s grave. He is the head of all the men there. Whoever designed that deserves recognition. There is a sadness when you review all the GMHS something like visiting my own son’s grave or the Vietnam Wall. All those deaths were due to bad judgement of those that bossed the situation.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on March 28, 2016 at 6:48 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> Ok that was a beautiful way the 19 are planted in the
>> cemetery at Prescott.
You DO know that they are not ALL really ‘buried’ there, yes?
No, where are they buried? Is it at that restricted spot? They did not restrict me from the cemetery. Is there a law to keep me away from graveyards?
I don’t have the list in front of me… but the ‘remains’ of MANY of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots were all ‘flown home’… and they were actually ‘buried’ back where they came from.
That ‘area’ at the Pioneer Cemetery is just designed to make you THINK they are ALL actually buried there together.
They’re NOT.
Followup…
YAOIS ( Yet Another Old Irish Saying )…
Fiú i bás mheabhlaireacht minic
“Even in death there is often deception”.
A memorial is no more than a road side cross.
Bob since the Storm King , Mann Gulch, etc. have only simple crosses to mark the places they fell, what situation do we have at Yarnell that we now restrict an area where the men died and deed that land to widows so they only and perhaps a few that need get permission from widows or a local fire chief can pay respects? It certainly makes no sense to me and perhaps you and a few others here can explain this to me.
WTKTT is on top of things and straightened me out on the memorial I thought was a grave site in Prescott. Actually those are just markers for a number of men whom are actually buried in their respective home places. I did replace Marsh’s flowers, his had blown out and I guess for Easter the 18 others had flowers placed for Easter–their flowers were all intact. Steed’s marker or grave lies in the middle of the men on the right side line and on the left side Marsh heads the line of markers or graves. This actually is beautifully done and those men deserve every bit of this sad but wonderful place to pay respect. I suppose because I believe this is truly ample and exactly where the memorial belongs I was satisfied with this tribute to their wild land fire fighting efforts.
To describe it a little better, each has a large about 2×3 ft brass plaque engraved with their face, family or whom they associated closely with and below information as to what they did with fireman classification. I did not understand why Misner was set aside at the end with the two rows on each side. Fate usually does justice and he is at the head of all the others in the middle of the two rows at the North end, much like the North Star is at the head of the earth. I surmise that he was the odd number so wound up there and Norb explained that he was a top sawyer and had an excellent classification showing much experience. Maybe when Donut passes they will put him at the South end next to Marsh.
Bothe of those fires are on Federal land.
The crosses were set to note the location of each fatality for those that wished to review the incident.
I have never thought the crosses to be more than a location of the fallen. They could have been posts metal or otherwise. Some have to much of a hang up on a cross at a memorial site.
Thanks for pointing that out WTKTT.–I would have thought they were all there at the cemetery. It is similar to co ordinates given describing the location where the fire started–miles away and to the east of the Weaver’s from my GPS. Absolutely off, but where it originated does not seem to have been checked out or possibly the person that posted those co-ordinates made error since actually the latitude would have been approximately right. But longitude took me east from the two track several miles. That fire started to the west of that old gold mine that is above the old grader, That gold mine would be maybe a hundred yards south of the latitude line but then the fire would have had to been perhaps between 50 to 100 yards to the west of the top of the Weavers.
the day is April 23rd 2pm-
Location: Naples Ristorante where I was a chef
Incident: involved GREEN HORN busboy and a GREEN HORN day manager while owner was in Italy-
I was a type of chef that they had an area that was glass enclosed with granite counters and a wood burning stove and I cooked for the world to watch how I did it and I would set certain dishes with liquor ablaze and come to your table to do some magic tricks and present the food to you as one would ohhh and ahh I cannot touch this masterpiece as they usually had camera in hand to photograph it before diving in…I was a sure one of a kind character as people all over the world made their annual trip to make sure to stop in and dine there just to see what new magic trick I would pull on them or prank. That day I had 3 special events and had to prep for Saturday’s baby shower at 11am knowing full well I had gobs of company in town because I was marrying on the Superstition Mountains at 4pm that Saturday. Most females would call out of work for that special day but “people” always were more important to me than my own life happenings and came first- Well, I had this idiot new day manager and this new busboy not get the RULES and SAFETY of the kitchen as they come darting around a blind spot corner not calling CORNER and the huge type stew pots where I had boiling hot water splash of olive oil and salt and fresh pasta made it on me and the burnnnnn was so intense I could not imagine what just happen (INCIDENT WITH AN INCIDENT HAPPEN AFTER WITH THE MANAGER’S AS THEY TRIED TO HELP BUT IT JUST ADDED CHAOS so I am very close to knowing avoid the paperwork because I had 75 people I was cooking for and I had a deadline and I also had four hours later 215 people coming after a golf event to cook for and I was it so I did not contact the owner in Italy and tell him he had hired an idiot day manager and a green horn kid busboy and my task was just that get the quality food out but I had chaos messing me up and pulled it off and the next day I made my tiramisu style collosal wedding cake out it in fridge and the green horn kid was putting his fingers eating it saying it was delicious and I thought what the F…my wedding cake? idiot. I still had to do the baby shower food and then let Antanosio take over so I can shower and get ready for my wedding that Saturday and I can tell you the worst part was not getting married but having a body burn like I did that needed hospitalization and putting that heavy materialed wedding dress on….that was PAIN….but you know what with all the chaos and the bullshit I was not going to call the owner about this plus I never wanted to do paperwork but maybe I am thinking of my own life history of worst case scenarios that happen 6-30-13 and want to still give much credit to Marsh because all the MISSING ELEMENTS remain hidden so until all information I will remain in my bubble. I always hiddenly did wish the green horns left the job but I did by my bday July 1993. I could not stand their green horn ways…created chaos
my point above…was not share personal tidbits but a piece of my own experience to why I come to think how I do….its MINDSET of 6-30-13 and how all areas were that day not just Steed and Marsh- the other chaos that could of affected the decisions and MINDSET of that day so I do not agree that the answers died with the men and I live in my bubble.
Joy,
I have a few personal opinions that I’d like to share with you.
The missing elements, as you call them, aren’t coming. They have had more than ample time to come fourth and apparently have not chosen to do so. Because of this, I and others have decided we will figure it out ourselves. We have the body of evidence to examine and experience of various individuals to assist in the search for the truth.
I’m personally willing to entertain any scenario anyone comes up with…….but, only if there is evidence to back up the claim. The burden of proof is on the party making the claim.
I sense your frustration about the missing elements but if someone is getting false blame or being ‘scapegoated,’ why don’t you steer the discussion in the proper direction with evidence to support your claim?
One more thing, most of us wff’s are not ‘nice.’ Actually ‘nice’ means a person is foolish, silly or ignorant in Old English, French, and Latin respectively. Most wildland firefighters are rough folks who have a low tolerance for bullshit. We have rules, policies and procedures. When something like this happens (Yarnell) we’re saddened, frustrated and pissed-off. It was a totally unnecessary loss of life.
There are those here that spent a major part of their lives building the wildland firefighting house. (By the way, it’s falling down & has been for a while. I have my reasons why that is but that’s a topic for another day – I just hope we can save the foundation) There are those, such as myself, whose job it is to maintain the house that others built for us. Just the same, our orders are to pass the keys to those in the future whose job it will be to maintain the house as well. Now, there seems to be a pile of shit somebody left on the front porch and we’re still trying to scrape it off. We (if I may be so bold to speak for others) would also like to make certain nobody drops another load on said porch until it’s someone else responsibility to be on the neighborhood watch – then it’s their job.
Like I said, most of us are anti-bullshit & rough people…until you get the title of ‘management.’
Woodsman
This is so true Woodsman. Bull shit on the porch is what wild land fire fighters have and the tax payer paying hundreds of thousands for memorials while neglecting the men that on the line today. They have shortages and those shortages cost lives and I mean not only in money but in training and equipment and better wages.
Now I have seen those videos of men training up dirt roads and doing push ups and fancy hand stands but I never saw one of men training through the situation of tangled manzanita so it can be understood and timed so that men know the truth of what they must encounter and how much hinderance they have if a fire is near. Instead we have them riding bicycles and lifting weights–all good except they fail in the real environment that those men did die in. I doubt Marsh knew the implications of subjecting his crew to what he did or if he did he was ignorant in all counts of taking care of his men first and telling anyone wanting structure protection to go to hell. So yes, better management in the Yarnell history for sure. But looking around I have met Norb personally, Dr. Ted Putnam, and others beside meeting these top men who have retired with not one loss of life simply because they had the experience and knowledge to keep their men’s lives as priority.
So indeed at least in some of these late fire fighting efforts we have seen too much cover up that needs to be clean up.
Woodsman— you forgot to add we get and are Hard Headed.
Bob,
Yep. The hardheadedness of wildland firefighters is actually off the scale of both the Brinell Hardness Test AND the Rockwell scale. That’s why we need to stick with the fundamentals forged by the sacrifice of those that came before us. The same rules apply as in your day.
Woodsman
Amen to that, Woodsman.
Woodsman,
Well said.
I saw a YH Fire presentation last week that used a new tyerm to me. The term “SUGGESTIVE EVIDENCE” was used when the presenter, a WFF on the YH Fire, talked about finding about half a dozen chainsaw-cut brush stobs leading down toward the BSR. The presenter’s photos definitely revealed recent chainsaw cuts.
‘Suggestive evidence’ is inconclusive evidence that suggests the possibility that something occurred and/or was present.
The presenter GPS’d these stobs and they lined up fairly close to and parallel to the dozer line constructed to retrieve the deceased GMHS. He did NOT know if the dozer line had damaged any unscouted and/or undiscovered chainsaw-cut stobs closer to the BSR.
The presenter said he talked to WFF’s that were in the BSR area on 30 June 2013 that heard chainsaws and yelling above them.
The same Engine Boss that was asked by STPS Cordes to check on the GMHS Crew carriers that day, said he was aware of ‘a trail in the brush’ leading down to the BSR (no other details), having scouted while at the BSR.
So then, these are all ‘suggestive evidence’ that at some time, someone(s) had cut a line through the brush with a chainsaw(s), above and leading down to the BSR and/or from the BSR uphill in the brush.
Some interesting Things There—
It first would not surprise me to find Chainsaw cut brush coming off the Saddle.
The crew would have been Cutting brush out of the way as they moved down hill.
The thing about a trail going up from BSR would not surprise me although what they may have seen was a Animal Trail as from what I have seen the only water was at or near BSR.
It would not surprise me that there are animal trails thru that brush in the Canyon some big some small.
If there was a trail the Crew should have made way better time.
If there was a trail from BSR why did they not run to BSR.
One clear thing in the Fade Video The crew had a hell of a lot of smoke hanging over them or blowing over them to realize they were in a bad– no Terrible location. Kick it in gear and get the fuck out of there.
Leaves me doubtful there was any precut trail. ——————
Bob is right on that–no cutting down that steep slope to the death basin. You could barely stand up going down that slope–Even Norb thinks there was no way he would have his men ford that steep slope with a fire near. It was no place to be cutting brush–in fact in places it might stop or slow your descend. Remember Bruce and Joy both took a nasty fall just going down in the black. I suggested Bruce apply for federal disability –he actually got hurt pretty badly. No place to be cutting brush–that cutting was only around their deployment area.
One of the reasons people took falls going down that burned slope was because there was NO brush left to grab on to for balance on the way down.
We have hiked through and built firelines on slopes that steep and steeper in brush that thick and thicker. It’s much easier going downhill through brush with gravity than uphill against gravity.
We trained in being able to maneuver through the brush because it was almost everywhere in the West.
I would agree to that RTS–I have felled trees in steeper terrain with snow on the ground and the wind whipping the tree who knows if the hinge will hold. True to have brush to hold on to. But no, not any cuts of the many examinations on the slope–I think they used the brush to hold on to going down. It was thinner on the slope–the real problem was once they were in the basin. We know since we crossed that basin that very early morning with much difficulty. Joy’s photos remind me of the denseness of brush.
RTS,
Never heard the term ‘suggestive evidence’ so I checked it out. Seems its use comes from the medical research field. Was the presenter an firefighter/EMT by chance or have any medical/lab background? Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
He is a WFF and was an EMT but don’t know where he picked up the term.
It’s also used a lot in aircraft and marine accident investigations as well as military research on sleep deprivation, and much more.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on March 28, 2016 at 8:14 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I saw a YH Fire presentation last week that used a new tyerm to me.
>> The term “SUGGESTIVE EVIDENCE” was used when the presenter,
>> a WFF on the YH Fire, talked about finding about half a dozen
>> chainsaw-cut brush stobs leading down toward the BSR. The
>> presenter’s photos definitely revealed recent chainsaw cuts.
It is still very likely that ‘cut evidence’ was just part of the ‘cleanup’ that was ordered for the dozer push itself, the morning after the tragedy.
From Peeples Valley Firefighter Bob Brandon’s ‘testimony’ about Yarnell… in his own words…
http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/os_bob_brandon.html
———————————————————————–
We got up the next day ( Monday, July 1, 2013 ) and went back to the Ranch House, which was our sector, and they told us what they’d like for us to do was to drive down into Glen Ilah. They gave us different roads we were supposed to go in on and put out whatever we could to keep the fire from spreading any farther because there appeared to be some houses that hadn’t burned.
We spent the day putting out fires all over in the west end of Glen Ilah.
Our other men, two of the other firefighters from Peeples Valley, went in with the team to where the 19 firefighters passed away. And they were basically fire suppression up to the Helms house so the investigation could go in and take care of it. So they actually had an assignment for that day to put out little trees and bushes and things like that so they could actually get into that location.
The next day they took us in and debriefed us. This was two days after the incident with the 19. They went through and looked at my pictures and took a flash card of them. And I don’t know what they did with them, but it was pretty good because my pictures had timelines on them, so they could see what happened at what time.
Then they took information off our cellphones because that’s how we talked to, texted, each other. And those all had timelines on them, too. What time we were there. What time we were aware that the fire was about to overtake us. What time we got out. And some of the texts about whether we were safe.
————————————————————————
So there is THIS part…
————————————————————————
Two of the other firefighters from Peeples Valley, went in with the team to where the 19 firefighters passed away. And they were basically fire suppression up to the Helms house so the investigation could go in and take care of it. So they actually had an assignment for that day to put out little trees and bushes and things like that so they could actually get into that location.
————————————————————————
If those FFs were assigned the task of making SURE the ‘dozer path’ out to the deployment site was free of fire and any ‘smolderings’… ( quote: “put out little TREES and BUSHES” )… then it stands to reason they would have been using chainsaws as well to remove things ( trees, bushes, etc. ) from the side of the dozer path.
Ex-WFF Holly Neill has said ( in public comments on forums ) that she, herself, has ‘investigated’ these ‘saw cuts’ that have supposedly been found in-between the deployment site and the Boulder Springs Ranch. When it was pointed out to her that all of that COULD have been the work of the men assigned to ‘clean up’ the dozer push the very next morning after the tragedy… she also said that she was aware of that ‘work’ and that she had actually TALKED to those men.
It’s also been reported that Holly Neill basicallly ‘camped out’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch for a number of days just to do this kind of ‘investigative work’… even before the land was sold to Arizona State Parks and was under the ‘closure order’ imposed by Arizona State Trust Lands department.
But all that work Neill *might* have been doing was, apparently, just part of the ongoing research she has been doing for author John Maclean… and Holly Neill has never ( to my knowldeged ) actually said what any of HER ‘conclusions’ were even after focusing on all this.
SIDENOTE: Is there ANY ‘word on the street’ about when ( or even IF? ) author John Maclean is EVER going to ‘chime’ in anywhere, anytime, about this historic loss of life in the WFF world?
By the way… speaking of ‘never’… NONE of that entire ‘body of evidence’ ( testimony, photos, possibly videos and cellphone and text messages ) that Bob Brandon says was ‘collected’ from ALL of the Peeples Valley FFs just 48 hours after the tragedy has ever seen the light of day.
NONE of it was on that ‘hard drive’ that the SAIT was required to hand over to ADOSH which was supposed to contain ALL of the ‘evidence’ that had anything to do with the Yarnell Hill Fire.
WTKTT,
The GPS location and alignment of the photographed chainsaw-cut stobs I saw, likely were NOT due to any suppression efforts near the BSR along the dozer-pushed road.
There was nothing left to mop-up because it was moon-scaped. Maybe around the BSR itself but not those that paralleled the dozer line.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
March 28, 2016 at 9:44 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The GPS location and alignment of the photographed
>> chainsaw-cut stobs I saw, likely were NOT due to any
>> suppression efforts near the BSR along the
>> dozer-pushed road.
Ah… okay. Thank you.
Where were they, then?
Up on those ‘mounds’ that the ‘dozer push’ actually cuts through?
Do you know ( or did the presenter even know? ) WHEN these ‘GPS’ed photographs were actually taken?
How long AFTER the tragedy?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> There was nothing left to mop-up because it was
>> moon-scaped. Maybe around the BSR itself but
>> not those that paralleled the dozer line.
Copy that. Then I don’t fully understand that ‘assignment’ that Bob Brandon says those FFs were given. If there was nothing to ‘mop-up’ along the dozer push… then why would he be saying that was what their ‘assignment’ was the very morning after the tragedy?
I don’t expect you to know the answer there.
Simply —a Mop up assignment is what it is there may or may not be any heat or smokes but you need to do a through check.
It is dirty time consuming work to insure the fire is out.
You can tell if the Chain saw cuts were before or after the Fire
based on the burn pattern. Burned cuts will be black.
Fresh cuts will show white wood. From what we have seen of the burned area it was as RTS said a moon scape I doubt you would find many cut stabs that had not burned.
Wow—Thanks to Gary I found out you guys changed to a new chapter.
So I am back on board.
Our motto is “Never leave a man or woman behind!”
FYI – All of the recordings from Joy’s and Amanda Marsh’s hearing are now on my website here,
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
1. They are posted in 12 segments just like they came from the court, each one is about 5 minutes long.
2. I should have been able to stop them from auto playing, but I couldn’t, so it sounded like the Tower of Babble. Therefore I had to create a separate web page for each recording, no big deal, but you have to go to different pages for each one via the new navigation bar.
3. The recordings came in an obscure format used by asshole attorneys and judges (except for Judge Markham, he is a pretty cool customer, and a few more) to keep us peons in the dark, but they have been converted to a format that opens with Windows Media Player for your listening pleasure. Hopefully they work on Mac’s with Quicktime?
Happy Listening!
;
Gary… I tried accessing the files from an Android hand-held and no-go.
Something about the Google Chrome Browser not liking the ‘Active X’ wrappers,
or something.
The easiest way to access the sound files is to just call up the actual location where they appear to be stored ( as shown below ).
All modern browsers know ‘what to do’ with an MP3 file and the ‘script wrappers’ really aren’t even necessary.
The following direct-links all seem to work AOK for Androids…
http://ourfiregods.com/media/Prescott-Consolidated-Court-20150108-Part-01.mp3
http://ourfiregods.com/media/Prescott-Consolidated-Court-20150108-Part-02.mp3
The other ‘direct links’ will follow as ‘Reply’ messages…
http://ourfiregods.com/media/Prescott-Consolidated-Court-20150108-Part-03.mp3
http://ourfiregods.com/media/Prescott-Consolidated-Court-20150108-Part-04.mp3
http://ourfiregods.com/media/Prescott-Consolidated-Court-20150108-Part-05.mp3
http://ourfiregods.com/media/Prescott-Consolidated-Court-20150108-Part-06.mp3
These are the two parts that contain Darrell Willis’ testimony on behalf of Amanda Marsh.
Willis takes the stand about halfway through Part-07.
http://ourfiregods.com/media/Prescott-Consolidated-Court-20150108-Part-07.mp3
http://ourfiregods.com/media/Prescott-Consolidated-Court-20150108-Part-08.mp3
These are the two parts that contain Dr. Ted Putnam’s testimony on behalf of Joy Collura.
He actually takes the stand near the end of Part-08, but doesn’t really start speaking until the beginning of Part-09.
http://ourfiregods.com/media/Prescott-Consolidated-Court-20150108-Part-09.mp3
http://ourfiregods.com/media/Prescott-Consolidated-Court-20150108-Part-10.mp3
http://ourfiregods.com/media/Prescott-Consolidated-Court-20150108-Part-11.mp3
http://ourfiregods.com/media/Prescott-Consolidated-Court-20150108-Part-12.mp3
I told myself I would not listen but I listen to five seconds and it reminded me the falsehoods because the five seconds I heard she said I contacted her about psychics and that is a lie. It was a email communication between Jerry and the hikers and his wife stepped in not getting the whole story on topic she jumped on it so again Amanda had it not true but there was a lot of areas I know she can never come up with evidence to back up her words because it never happened ed…it was a grief phase is how I took it being at time I was not the only one getting those injunction warnings… I will not address her direct again since I know the depth of her pain and I won’t be a part in it but at that time I hated to go outside because everywhere I went it was Amanda wants you arrested so word travelled so fast in three months that when ycso did what they did then a firefighter I made a frustrated comment but no more…that was enough for me to listen to it…saddens me the world has to hear and see it because only my immediate folks know but her timing in doing it was a challenging phase for me. Because of her people who use to hug me now say “here’s trouble” that week so Sonny says so many support me about topic but I lost long time friendships because of this stir the pot area based on one you bet respectfully yours and a frustrated comment after months of bs so its a topic and audio I opt to not hear and hope many others opt the same.
Actually in that five seconds I also have to note she said I said something to her Amanda but poor Holly and A Sinclair Eric’s friend..Amanda in court mentioned something that was discussed in private to you two not Amanda. I may listen to the audio more at another time but again Holly you know that five seconds had to do with us three not Amanda so I know you are the one who talks to me one way but glaze me as a misfit on this Jerry Springer site here…as I told E …I am now publicly saying Holly is not welcome to reach me again because the tiny audio I heard was not Amanda involved but a topic on a hike with Eric’s friend A Sinclair and Deanna and her husband and Jim Roth and his amazing wife and Holly Neill.
Shame. I was going to call and email Holly to privately find out why but recently how I learned Holly talks about me behind my back I opt to state it here. Don’t call me or email me. Go listen to audios and claim your 15 minutes… I don’t want or need fame…could care less…its better I go do other things and avoid the audio because it just reminded me of the lies not just under oath and the hearsay… What a bullshit…
We met in person today and I am now publicly apologizing and finding source to place here to— I must of said it on IM and she got it here not from them
Reply to Gary Olson post on March 27, 2016 at 11:47 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I didn’t want to be a tease (any longer) and since I know there are
>> inquiring minds out there who want to know, I have posted the transcript
>> before I unloaded my rigs. It will take a little longer to load the actual
>> recordings, but the transcript is much better anyway.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
Thanks for posting the transcript of the PUBLIC Court proceeding.
As is/was required by LAW… that court proceeding was recorded by the Clerk of the Prescott
Consolidated Court, and ANYONE can request a copy of it. It is a PUBLIC record.
I think the part that relates most to what just happened at the 2016 Arizona Wildfire Incident and Management Academy ( AWIMA ) is the part where the Judge is informing Amanda Marsh what he is NOT going to do.
1. He tells her he is NOT going to order any member of the public to NOT attend a public meeting.
2. He tells her he is NOT going to order any member of the public to NOT talk about what is now a historic, national ( global ) tragedy.
3. As per number 2… he is also NOT going to order any member of the public to NOT talk
about her husband and his involvement in this historic, national tragedy.
And he was very specific as to WHY he was NOT going to ‘order’ these things.
From that part of the court proceeding where the Judge is telling Amanda what he is NOT going to do…
——————————————————————————-
Ms. Beno-Marsh… I have to say that basically is it as far as what I’m gonna tell her not to do.
I’m afraid that the tragedy that happened June 30, 2013 was something that we’re all gonna be livin’ with the rest of our lives. It’s just a… it was a… a kick in the gut for the whole community. Countywide plus statewide, nationwide. One of those great tragedies that just… ya know… it’s one of those things that one can remember where one was when one first heard about something like that… and that’s gonna be a great emotional impact on everybody… and because of it being such a major event… that means people are gonna continue to have opinions about it, talk about it, have meetings about it, have memorials about it…
all the different things that come along with great national tragedies like that.
I’m NOT gonna tell Ms. Collura to not go to public meetings.
I’m NOT gonna tell her to not hike the mountains, or go to the site if, in fact, it’s open to public or not.
I figure it’s up to State land department or, indeed, if somebody buys the property to have the legal right… if they do… to say that somebody can or cannot go to the property under what conditions. That’s beyond what I’m doing here today.
And I’m NOT telling her, I’m afraid, to not speak about your husband.
The fireman Marsh certainly was a hero… but was one of the 19… and certainly was a supervisor… and there’s just things that people talk about or whatever. I’m afraid that’s just something one has to live with… and the fact that there will be PUBLIC discussion and PUBLIC opinions about what happened and why things happened or who was or was not responsible or whatever.
And so I’m NOT gonna order her, likewise, to not speak about your husband or, indeed, about tragedies or about whatever opinions she might have.
———————————————————————————
Yes…and the way I read it, here it the “real” translation of what Judge Markham said:
“The fireman Marsh certainly was a hero… but was one of the 19… and certainly was a supervisor… and there’s just things that people talk about or whatever [your husband was in charge of those men and he ordered them to their deaths]. I’m afraid that’s just something one has to live with… and the fact that there will be PUBLIC discussion and PUBLIC opinions about what happened and why things happened or who was or was not responsible or whatever [your husband is responsible for the deaths of those men].”
Whoops…I guess since we try to watch our proper use of the English language as much as possible on this website I had better correct my incorrect tense…I think it should be “your husband WAS responsible for the deaths of those men.” since he is no longer with us either.
But in any case…I think that two very pregnant “WHATEVERS” say a whole bunch don’t you agree? I wonder how many times a judge who is obviously as learned, intelligent and articulate as Judge Markham uses “whatever” in his courtroom. Yea…whatever.
And some old business I have is this…I agree with Bob, I think there might be something a little off with Dale1. Dale email…lots of people have and tell me who you are and I will vouch for you. Nobody said WF are always learned folk, you don’t have to be when your only mission in life is to “cut fireline, cut more fireline and stop cutting fireline.” It was a very simple life that I loved because it was so simple.
Like I said in Chapter One of my book whenever people said to me, “Say…you work for the Forest Service, what kind of tree is that?” I would always reply, “I’m a firefighter, there are only two kinds of trees…those that are on fire and those that are not. That one is the kind that is not on fire.”
Double Whoops…it should be Dale email ME and I will vouch for you after you tell me who you are and where you work so I can Google you. Everyone is only a few clicks away, what a Brave New World (Aldous Leonard Huxley) we live in.
And of course I am speaking specifically of hotshots when I say all you need to know is to cut line, cut more line or stop cutting line, you do have to know more to be a tanker (engine) slug or a helislack, or a drum role please….a smokejumper.
That is why I could never be more than a hotshot. Engine crews need to know all about psi and how much pressure it takes to get one gallon of water up every 1 foot of elevation and reducers going downhill so they don’t blow out their lines.
And helitack guys need to know how to calculate weights, temperatures and elevations so as not to exceed the limits of their helicopter plus they need to know how to lay around motel swimming pools and lick their nuts.
And then there are the, drum role please…the smokejumpers. Of course smoekjumpers need to know their count…one, two, three…three…three, what comes after three?
So…it’s not ALL as easy as it sounds.
Sounds like a miner–Besides all you need to know to be one you also need to know how to keep you and your helper alive.
My father missed that memo.
Hey Sonny…I just posted a photo for you (and all of my other close friends and confidants on this web blog) of my father standing near the mine where both of you worked and he was killed in New Mexico.
He looks every bit the Marine who served his country in the South Pacific during WWII. He was killed less than two months after this photo was taken as I have said before, when he was struck by heavy equipment and knocked down a mine shaft.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
Take a little stroll down memory lane on me…just don’t stay there too long. It is a dark place full of bad memories…right?
Added thanks for the photo Gary. Brings back old times in the mines. I’m sure he is in heaven–God lets all us miners in.
And yes, the one, two, three…three…three, what comes after three? is from the Smokejumper versus Hotshot video on YouTube, but it is a classic that NEVER gets old.
That photo brings back memories of those Uranium days. Looks like your dad is suited up and has his belt-so maybe was getting ready to go to work. If he had just come out his face would have been like a coal miner’s face. That black pitchblende in sandstone when you drilled came out looking almost like black oil. When you came out your face was covered with that shit so you could have been a coal miner.
I can see his wet suit pants have a few tears–means he wasn’t a green horn and had been working for some time at the mine.
Damn sure a hero and deserves recognition. He lost his life producing the stuff that won WW2 — and doing it on the front line just as every wild land fighter does.
Thank you very much for the insight Sonny. I knew I could count on you!
I almost don’t want to comment anywhere near recent topic.
However I feel a need to share.
I am sorry my actions on this site went to a level where I sat in a court room with me as one of the people involved.
Still bewilders me.
When others talk about her and stuff.
I never thought me being followed and called out by ycso to others from so many different towns for a few months that my frustrated blog comment would mar my perfect record. That part was hard in the start for me. I am hard to keep away from hiking unless physical proper legal signage and fencing in place and it was never to make a point but I hiked it ten years before the fire…I am the common housewife slash desert desert walker who has travelled a slice of a twilight zone lifestyle since my health shifted. I am sorry to see my personal attacks of falsehoods towards me are now for the world to see especially choice of day…a holiday. I do not know Amanda nor hold ANY grudge even though she publicly marred my record based on number one communication you bet respectfully as first communication than the comment on here and Willis hearsay. It seem like a waste of the judge’s hour. I am sorry for her grief and if at any time my life and its actions make her feel her perceptions. I really do care so there is not much to say or comment on the case except I firmly feel there was falsehoods stated and in person I can share to anyone what areas were but I do feel the energy of Gary talking about some areas I just don’t want to engage in an area that put me in that crony system which was so apparent when I saw the body languages that day.
And one more fact I was not the only person in this aftermath process that got an injunction for harassment warning…a radio man up there got one and an editor-author got one that I know of and there is two other unnamed that now know her that at first had tough time…I am glad if its true that she found someone… She deserves happiness.
Gary. You make folks eyes widen…Fann probably is wondering why you call her name out…I know I wondered.
Is your jeep fixed yet?
ATV rife day?
Also remember a lot of the times I came here is to filter or buff what Sonny says because he has his life and thinking but I do not think the same. Someone recently said you the hikers use to come here as the hiking duo but that shifted when Sonny would write what he did and I would be like -oh my- but he has that right to be him but again we don’t share a lot of the same views.
I had plenty of time to make it to the vehicle 6-30-13 had I went my way.
No, my Jeep isn’t fixed yet, I was mad at myself for breaking it so I drove it home with a broken shock bracket and a bent shock to teach myself a lesson…slow down.
And I am sorry Joy, about posting the transcript from your court case…no I am really not sorry at all. That is just something we think we are supposed to say. FYI…posting that transcript is not about you.
Whoever is interested in getting the truth out about the YHF and what happened to the crew needs to know what kind of person Amanda Beno Marsh is. She is the kind of person who is willing to jeopardize the lives of wildland firefighters in the future to try and protect the reputation of Eric Marsh. So…
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on March 20, 2016 at 7:08 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> You won’t get Paul Harvey, ‘the rest of the story’ but you will get more of the story.
Thank you.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The anonymous person met with the AZ Wildfire Academy IC and Deputy IC
>> to ask some questions and briefly discuss the matter after confirming they
>> were aware of the issue.
>>
>> He asked them (1) what he allegedly said and did and where and (2) what was
>> the YH Fire and GMHS briefing that they gave to everyone else at the AZ Wildfire
>> Academy that he did not receive.
>>
>> The first question was verified as posted here. And yes, Naumetz was the one
>> that got it rolling by going to Amanda Marsh.
So… just to be clear… the thing that Naumetz was ‘reporting’ to this person selling T-Shirts in the lobby was that someone had, in fact, mentioned GM and the Yarnell Fire in an actual CLASS… or was Naumetz just talking about some ‘debate’ he might have overheard two other people having as a PRIVATE conversation at the banquet dinner?
In other words… was everyone getting bent out of shape just because of some ‘private’ conversation between two individuals at a banquet dinner… or because of something that was actually presented ( at least once? ) during one of the CLASSES…
…or was it BOTH things that were getting people ( or actually just ONE T-Shirt selling person? ) all ‘worked up’?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The second answer was very solid and from the heart. The IC accepted total
>> ownership in NOT providing anyone at the Academy with a YH Fire and GMHS
>> briefing. He acknowledged the still-high emotions and the sensitivity of the issue(s).
>>
>> He thanked the anonymous person for bringing the issue up and the IC promised
>> to address the YH Fire and GMHS briefing in future AZ Wildfire Academies.
>> He also said he would talk to the AZ Wildfire Academy Coordinator about it.
>> The issue was resolved after their discussions with a good, satisfactory outcome.
Okay… here ( to me ) is the ‘scary’ part.
What you are saying is that people running the Academy acknowledged that there had been NO BRIEFING given to ANYONE at THIS year’s Academy about GM and the Yarnell Hill fire being ‘off limits’ for discussion at the Academy…
…but then these same people have now decided there, By God, WILL be ‘such a briefing’ at the NEXT Academy?
That’s the ‘scary’ part.
That there now ( apparently ) WILL be directives given ( in the future ) to instructors and/or guest speakers at this accredited Wildland Firefighting Teaching Academy to NOT discuss ( at all ) the greatest blunder in the history of Wildland Firefighting and how it might be prevented from happening AGAIN.
Astounding.
WTKTT,
The ‘YH Fire and GMHS briefing’ thing was more to do with the lingering, raw emotional and sensitivity issues surrounding the overall tragedy and NOT that participants would be prohibited and/or censored from talking about either the YH Fire and/or the GMHS.
And the precipitating issue was someone talking about the YH Fire and the GMHS in one of the class sessions
Ah… okay… thank you.
An honest question, then.
WHEN, do you think, it will be AOK to just freely ( and honestly ) discuss this tragedy in classroom situations… WITHOUT really having to worry about all the ’emotional’ components… or whether there’s a widow of one of the Hotshots in the lobby selling T-Shirts?
2 more years?
5 more years?
10 more years?
WTKTT,
I don’t really know how long it’s gonna take. Several years for sure though.
At a Wildland Fire Refresher Training last week, with the theme being Human Factors and the YH Fire, there were numerous Municipal, Structure, Wildland FF’s NOT from the Prescott area, that were on the YH Fire on 30 June 2013; and they were still pretty traumatized and emotional about all that happened there. And these were grown men!
Prior to the event, Amanda Marsh had called the RT-130 Refresher IC to inquire about the details of the presentations and how they related to the GMHS and Eric Marsh. Amazingly, this woman holds a lot of sway at the AZ Wildfire Academy and here at the Refresher Training and probably anywhere the YH Fire and GMHS issues are discussed.
The truth and Lessons Learned from the tragic YH Fire will never be realized as long as WFF’s and other, interested and entrenched people live in denial and want to believe that the GMHS supervisors are heroes, that the big, bad fire killed them, that it was nobody’s fault, and there was nothing anyone could do to prevent their deaths.
As long as the GMHS families, friends, and loved ones maintain the ‘victim’ attitude and are not open to evidence to the contrary, then there will be no real healing and no Lessons Learned and NO Truth about WHY they died.
RTS said, “The truth and Lessons Learned from the tragic YH Fire will never be realized as long as WFF’s and other, interested and entrenched people live in denial and want to believe that the GMHS supervisors are heroes,”
Slight correction, I actually think they WERE heroes. They are just heroes that fucked up once too many times. It’s complicated.
That’s the way I read it. I read it that AMANDA BENO MARSH was the running the AZ Wildfire Academy, which is astonishing except that it is not really, not if you have been paying attention the past three years.
Prescott and the surrounding area are filled with guilt ridden wildland firefighting overhead, civic leaders and politicians. All of these people know they contributed to the deaths of the crew by their own actions or lack thereof in the time leading up to those deaths and during the event itself.
This group has many people as members, but certainly Todd Abel and Karen Fann are two of its leading participants who practice self-flagellation on a regular basis. Todd Able because of what he did on the fire that helped kill the crew and Karen Fann because she was a leading state legislature that historically and habitually underfunds the Arizona State Forestry so low they have to fight wildfires the way they fought them before the Yarnell Hill Fire and ever since the Yarnell Hill Fire because nothing has changed. Almost everyone in Prescott because they know their penny pinching leaders set the crew up for failure…catastrophic failure.
Fighting wildfires, especially fighting wildfires as a hotshot is not for amateurs or habitual fuck ups, even if they have a long track record of good outcomes for prior bad decisions. That kind of thing has a tendency to catch up with people…eventually.
So…anyway, now that I am back from my Jeeping and ATVing tour in and around the center of the Jeeping universe Moab, Utah, I am going to do what I promised to do a long time ago just as soon as I get my rigs unloaded. I am going to publish the transcript from the hearing that Amanda Marsh cooked up just to punish Joy for being a sweet person who does nothing except try to help people in her own way.
Unfortunately for Joy, her own way really pissed off Mrs. Beno Marsh and Mrs. Pfingston while poor ole’ Mr. Pfingston go reamed out by his wife for being in cahoots with someone who Christian Fundamentalists consider to be a bad person because she thinks a little differently than they do.
There is no smoking gun in this transcript but you can gain some interesting insight into Amanda Beno Marshes mindset as you listen to her spew her venom as she tries to manipulate poor Judge Markam with her sob story of how she is the “widow of a national tragedy” and how everyone wanted a piece of the “Golden Boy”, her now departed husband. Although I did notice that she was able to replace him and pretty quickly in her life, unlike my mother did after her personal tragedy. Is that catty on my part and a cheap shot? Too bad, I can’t count Amanda Beno Marsh’s cheap shots, because she takes most of them from the shadows and while hiding behind others.
Anyway…Judge Markham, who I now have a tremendous amount a respect for unlike Mrs. Beno Marsh’s bitches (non-gender specific) Todd Able and Karsn Fann et al. Judge Markham really shoots her down and tells her in no uncertain terms that people ARE going to talk about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire for a very long time and there is nothing she or anyone else can do about it, which he is mostly right about, except in Arizonaistan. The rules are different there.
If you also read and listen to what Judge Markham says very carefully…he actually tells Mrs. Beno Marsh that the Golden Boy killed his crew. So…if Judge Markham is aware of this truth, that tells me almost everyone else in and around Prescott is as well. They just keep playing out their own little Kabuki Theater of the absurd for their own selfish purposes even though if they told the truth about the fire and what happened to the crew it might save the lives of some wildland firefighters in the future. How very sad these people are…and they are criminals as well.
I didn’t want to be a tease (any longer) and since I know there are inquiring minds out there who want to know, I have posted the transcript before I unloaded my rigs. It will take a little longer to load the actual recordings, but the transcript is much better anyway. The only added value of actually listening to the recording is that you can hear the sweetness and confusion in Joy’s voice and the venom and indignant and holier-than-thou anger in Mrs. Beno Marsh’s voice.
Amanda Marsh has obviously moved on with her life, except that she gets so much sadomasochistic pleasure from rolling in the aftermath of the Yarnell Hll Fire and the celebrity status it bestows upon someone who otherwise is a very unremarkable person, at least according to her Facebook page. Why can’t she help the families move ahead with their lives as well?
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
Just finished reading the transcript. Thanks for posting it, Gary. “Golden Boy” she says? Only in Amanda Beno-Marsh’s illusions of grandeur was Eric Marsh ever a Golden Boy.
That cross-fade video recently posted here (thanks WTKTT) removes all doubt about what the fire looked like and where it was headed when Eric Marsh brazenly ordered 18 of his subordinates to march down off that ridge and into the path of a raging inferno. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSYpnPMfPmc) The video presents a painfully clear depiction of just how much ‘Depraved Indifference’ was involved on the part of the person who issued that order.
And there’s just not an ‘effin’ thing golden about Depraved Indifference.
The ways in which the truth can help the lives of some wildland firefighters in the future is something which (unfortunately) Ms. Beno-Marsh and her ilk will never concern themselves. You are so right in pointing it out, Gary, that their own egos are all that will ever matter to them.
From…
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-depraved-indifference.htm
What is ‘Depraved Indifference’?
Depraved indifference is a legal standard used to show “mens rea” (latin), or the state of mind of a defendant. It is commonly used in the law to determine whether a defendant is guilty of murder, manslaughter or another similar crime. Countries such as The United States and England have used the depraved indifference standard as a basis for determining the legal state of mind of a defendant, although it is known as “depraved heart” under English common law.
Although courts might vary somewhat with regard to the exact definition of what constitutes depraved indifference, the prosecution generally must show that the defendant caused a death by knowingly engaging in conduct that simply CREATED a grave risk of death.
A person acts with depraved indifference when he or she shows such utter disregard for human life that it is apparent he or she was completely indifferent about even CREATING a risk of death to another human being.
Some jurisdictions also use the depraved indifference standard to enhance what would otherwise be a manslaughter charge to murder.
Manslaughter often requires only a showing of recklessness. Although malice aforethought or premeditation are common hallmarks of a murder charge, in cases where the defendant acted with depraved indifference, he or she might be charged with murder despite the fact that the death was unintentional.
Just talked to a man with top credentials in wild land fire fighting– He is going to do some posting. He has run crews and he said no way he would do an Eric Marsh.
There is every reason to restrict that area since people in the know about wild land fire fighting immediately recognize the irresponsible actions taken that day by the men in charge that resulted in so many deaths. But to Beno Marsh’s credit she did say once that Eric would first be loved then hated. Seems she knew more than she wanted to say since she needed the sympathy that might not be afforded to a man that would likely have been charged for the deaths of those men he ordered down into that death basin knowing he was risking 19 lives if you include him. Donut as well was left in a death situation as well and by his lucky rabbit foot was rescued by chance with a BR.
Hero they all are but then how do you class risking young men’s lives like Marsh, Steed and whoever else was above them on the chain of command that wanted them to protect structures.
Beno Marsh does not seem to understand that to hide the truth will only contribute to more deaths down the line.
Sonny… this fellow you just talked to with the ‘top credentials in wild land firefighting’… is there any chance he lives in Idaho?
Just curious.
This guy is Norb–he headed two wild land crews and is now retired. He has posted before and says he will post more soon. We enjoyed a couple days of his company and if the wind permits he is headed out on his life’s journey. Did again meet up with Dr. Ted Putnam–he is still working on the Mann Gulch debacle and will eventually put out a documentary or book on the subject he has spent so much time and energy on.
That mystery man in Joy’s photo actually ordered Marsh down to tell us to leave the area. So Marsh had a mystery man come off the yellow and white copter to give him orders face to face.
Question to WTKTT: Do you know when Todd Able was up on the Weaver’s. This mystery man was there right above where they were cutting line.
Some thought on that–they were not long cutting line there so was that the time the mystery man might have said that they should head down to Yarnell after the short line work?
I am planning on meeting with Norb in May when I am in South Lake Tahoe. He lives about 45 Min. from there. Will be there for the Oak Grove Hot Shot Reunion 24 and 25 of May.
Sonny,
Mystery man who landed to talk to Marsh face to face? What time of day? Where did they land? Where was Marsh when this happened? What type of PPE was he wearing? Color of helmet? Flight helmet? Hardhat? Any other details?
The flight should be documented.
My hunch is this would be OPS but with everything else I have learned so far, who the heck knows.
Woodsman
Woodsman…
Yes… Joy took a photo that shows TWO men standing together on the top of the Weavers before Jesse Steed and the rest of the GM Crew even arrived up there.
This was ‘much discussed’ in previous chapters… and best guess at this point is that this was the LAST of the men who had spent the night up on the ridge and were being actively flown out of there by yeloow/white BLM helicopter N14HX at the same time Granite Mountain was ‘hiking’ in.
( Why they didn’t coordinate that so that at least some of Granite Mountain could have been being ‘delivered’ out to that spot on the ‘return trips’ of N14HX to retrieve the men who had spent the night up there is still anyone’s guess. More mis-communication and left hands not knowing what right hands are doing? )
It was actually mostly likely Justini Smith… Russ Shumates ICT4(t) trainee from Saturday who ended up spending the night up there with those DOC Lewis crewman.
Also might have been Helitack Nate Peck, who spent the night up there as well and might have been the ‘last man out’ on Sunday morning.
But ( big but )… there is still no evidence that anyone was ‘delivered’ out there during this ‘dust off’ for the men who had spent the night. It still appears to have been an ‘extraction only’ operation.
More about this later.
Yes, and that is why if Marsh and Steed would have survived, and I had done the investigation…I would have had to recommend in the strongest possible terms to the U.S. Attorney’s Office that they both be prosecuted for manslaughter.
You are right on that one Gary. But I still believe some mitigation for Marsh and Steed due to the chain of command. I know this is not the military but if your higher rank gives you an order (must strictly obey orders on a daily basis) then you are going to do everything possible to fulfill the order (but what human factor pushes you to risk lives?)
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on March 24, 2016 at 7:26 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> WTKTT that was definitely the Shrine area–we identified the tan
>> truck going out as well which was in the video at the time. That tan
>> pickup was Mark Danielson evacuating. He was the one no one has
>> been able to locate and believed to be dead in the rocks
>> somewhere –suicide after the fire destroyed his residence.
The video that shows Danielson ‘evacuating’ from his home there at the west end of Shrine Road is that one that Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd took with the filename M2U00266R.
As Danielson is exiting his driveway, he stops and asks the other Prescott National Forest employee, Jason Clawson, if he would help him ‘drive out’ his ‘other’ vehicle still at the end of the driveway. Jason Clawson agrees to do so and we also see Clawson driving that ‘other’ vehicle of Danielson’s out of his driveway and then EAST on Shrine Road.
There is nothing in that video showing anyone attempting any kind of ‘burnout’ near that address, not is there any evidence in that video itself that anyone did so prior to that video being shot.
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) also said…
>>
>> Yes there was and 89 burn out along the main paved highway and
>> also video of burn out on dirt road in Peeples Valley.
Those videos of the ‘burnout’ up in Peeples Valley were also ( apparently ) shot by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd and were the first 3 of those 21 videos finally ‘released’ by US Forestry. They ( the FFs in the video ) were actually ‘burning out’ the south side of the road that leads to the Double-Bar-A ranch as they were ‘evacuating’ from there.
Those are the ‘videos’ with the filenames…
0630131532.avi, 0630131533.avi, 0630131534.avi
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) also said…
>>
>> We have been to all those places–nothing like the Shrine area
>> though–those trees are tall and at 89 no trees only bushes.
>> Had the wind again shifted back to the east then another wild fire
>> would have gone east from 89. There is plenty of brush east of 89
>> but only a few houses around the Ranch House Café.
Copy that.
>> On March 24, 2016 at 7:28 pm, Charlie ( Sonny ) also said…
>>
>> Danielson was about the last house before the Shrine–and above
>> the Shrine that rock wall that is still there –nothing in the area
>> comes close to how it is.
Agreed.
>> On March 24, 2016 at 7:31 pm, Charlie ( Sonny ) also said…
>>
>> Perhaps I should add that even if we can show a burn out there above
>> the Shrine and it was on the west side of the dirt road–the time factor
>> wound be necessary to estimate if it would have anything to do with
>> the GMHS.
That’s correct. In order for it to have had ANYTHING to do with what happened to Granite Mountain, then there’s only a certain ‘window of time’ when it could have been ‘started’, since there was a LOT of ‘ground’ to cover between the Shrine area and the Boulder Springs Ranch area.
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) also said…
>>
>> That video was in the last hour or so of the fire with wind whipping trees like
>> that. It is only a factor to look at and only if we ever retrieve the video with time line.
So you are SURE, then, that the video you saw of FFs using ‘drip torches’ near some ‘rock wall’ on Shrine Road was also already showing the ‘wind whipping trees’, even as they were trying to do this ‘burnout’?
If so… that itself puts a ‘timeframe’ on it that would have been much too late in the afternoon for it to have had anything to do with what actually happened to Granite Mountain.
Let me say again that I am as open to any/all ‘theories’ about things that might have happened that day as anyone on the planet… but there is still NO EVIDENCE that any kind of ‘manual burnout’ somehow ’emerged’ from the Shrine Road area and went on to have anything to do with what happened to Granite Mountain.
And there is ‘other proof’ that this is the case.
Firefighter Jerry Thompson was a ‘crewman’ for Sun City Type 6 Brush Truck BR131.
He and his engine were ‘staged’ out at the far end of ‘West Way’. They were the ones who had been designated as one of the THREE ‘Lookouts’ for the firefighters working in the Youth Camp / Harper Canyon area. ( The other TWO lookouts were Matt Keehner of Peoples Valley Fire department… and SPGS1 Gary Cordes himself, out on Hwy 89 ).
Jerry Thompson took a number of photos and videos from that location on West Way. ALL of them are looking due northwest and back towards the ‘Shrine Road’ area in the same timeframe where there might have been any ‘burnouts’ initiated there.
Jerry Thompson’s photos/videos show nothing of the kind either ‘starting’ or ’emerging’ from the Shrine Road area.
These photos/videos taken by Jerry Thompson are here in the online SAIT Dropbox…
SAIT / Photos and Videos / Jerry Thompson Photos Videos
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACjXUZXUTol5xdSHlORGsTqa/Photos%20and%20Video/Jerry%20Thompson%20Photos%20Videos?dl=0
Jerry Thompson took all of his photos and videos from on top of a ‘rockpile’ just to the northwest of that ‘structure’… which is exactly here…
34.223091, -112.756211
That location was exactly this far due south of the parking lot of the Shrine of St. Joseph…
0.35 mile / 608 yards / 1,824 feet
ALL of these photos videos show the view from that ‘rock pile’ looking BACK towards the Shrine Road and Harper Canyon area(s).
NONE of them show ANY evidence of any ‘manual burnouts’ originating in that area.
VIDEOS…
IMG_1101.3gp – 1524 ( 3:24 PM )
IMG_1134.3gp – 1627 ( 4:27 PM ) – Contains same sirens heard in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video
IMG_1135.3gp – 1628 ( 4:28 PM )
IMG_1136.3gp – 1630 ( 4:30 PM )
PHOTOS…
IMG_9446.JPG – 1557 ( 3:57 PM )
IMG_3751.JPG – 1608 ( 4:08 PM )
IMG_8567.JPG – 1608 ( 4:08 PM )
IMG_8573.JPG – 1613 ( 4:13 PM )
IMG_1898.JPG – 1624 ( 4:24 PM )
IMG_5682.JPG – 1630 ( 4:30 PM )
Jerry Thompson’s own notes about his IMG_5682 photo…
“I took this last pic right before hiking to our truck and out to our safety zone,
we are approx 3/4 mile south of Blue Ridge Hotshots at this point, they
where working NW of the shrine, and believe GM is 3/4of a mile southwest of us.”
The Sun City Brush Truck that was ordered for Yarnell came with FOUR crewmembers…
Jerry Thompson (FFT2), Matthew H. Lohr (FFT2), Doug Corrie (ENGB) (T-A), Mike Godleski (ENGB).
The actual resource orders for Engine T6 – AZ-SUN – LIC #G086FW – BR131
and its crewmembers begin with order number E-8 in the “J – Resource Orders” document.
Sonny.
Wwtktt is right and yet a glaze of not right.
You see wwtjtt stated it to you wrong.
There is no PUBLIC evidence anymore but we were not the only ones who saw video so there was at one time in the start other firefighters putting their camera footage on vimeo and YouTube so there is evidence but no longer public as it once was…
Joy… as I’ve been trying to point out… I cannot DISPROVE that there was, at some point in time, some video showing FFs with drip torches starting a burnout at some rock wall just west of Danilson’s place on the dirt part of Shrine road…
…but if it ever actually happened… in any kind of timeframe where it would have made any difference as to what happened to Granite Mountain… I believe it would be ‘visible’ in the Jerry Thompson photos/videos.
It’s not. There’s nothing there but the ‘regular’ ( natural ) fireline, advancing towards Yarnell.
Sure about the drip torches being used in there–The clip was short and you could not determine how much they had gotten burning. I think you are likely correct WTKTT, that it seems like it may have been too late in the afternoon to have had any effect: however if a time line can be determined and that video again found then we would know. It seems not too many were aware that the GMHS were dropping off in toward Glen Isla in the green until they were already in danger. I would guess also that the other fire fighters would figure the GMHS knew what they were doing–especially structure fighters who would not be able to second guess any actions the GMHS crew would do. We have been going through videos, yet have to find what we saw. We will look at those you have–has to be a low rock wall about 2 ft in height in the video and looking NW the drip torches were on the left of the dirt road. Perhaps the investigators knew but the time line made it a non-factor.
Video you posted is not what we saw.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on March 26, 2016 at 12:35 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> Video you posted is not what we saw.
Yes, I know. I wasn’t suggesting that it was.
Those Jerry Thompson photos/videos were taken from the extreme end of ‘West Way’, and looking BACK towards the Shrine Road, Youth Camp and Harper Canyon area(s).
I was just pointing out that if there had been any manual ‘backfire’ started in any of those areas out ahead of the approaching (natural) fireline… and in any timeframe to have somehow ‘swept south’ in time to be a factor in what happened with Granite Mountain… then that should be VISIBLE in the Jerry Thompson photos/videos.
It’s not.
I’m still not suggesting, for one second, that you didn’t see what you are sure you saw. I’m just pointing out that there is OTHER tangible evidence that there were NO manual burnouts ever initiated that afternoon in the Shrine Road area.
WTKTT and Sonny,
The other day, I talked with one of the Engine Captains that was working in The Shrine area on June 30, 2013. He told me that he was one of the last ones to leave The Shrine area that day, and he said none of them lit any burnouts on their egress nor did he see any burnouts taking place at all that day in The Shrine area.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
March 26, 2016 at 3:19 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The other day, I talked with one of the Engine Captains
>> that was working in The Shrine area on June 30, 2013.
>> He told me that he was one of the last ones to leave
>> The Shrine area that day, and he said none of them
>> lit any burnouts on their egress nor did he see any
>> burnouts taking place at all that day in The Shrine area.
Thank you, RTS. Yes… that matches what TLFD(t) Tyson Esquibel testified to when he was interviewed by the SAIT.
He said they actually ‘thought’ about ‘laying fire on the way out’ ( from the Youth Camp area ) but decided AGAINST doing that. He also said hey had ‘no torches’ with which to do that.
From the SAIT Yarnell Investigation Notes ( YIN ) document…
————————————————-
Tyson Esquibel
• When the push happened, we got a spritz of rain and the wind started circling.
• Fuel load too heavy to hike through
• Too much time to organize the burnout on the way out
• No place to tie in
• Thought about laying fire on the way out but decided against it.
• Didn’t know where the other crew was
• We were there to cut line only
• No torches
————————————————-
WTKTT,
He also said that before he went to The Shrine area, STPS Cordes had him go ‘check on the GMHS Crew Carriers’ like he didn’t trust them parking them in a safe area. The Engine Captain said he found them parked in a grassy area and would have needed a dozer line around them for protection. The BRHS finally relocated them to Yarnell.
They were parked exactly where the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers were, as well ( all day )… but since Blue Ridge never had anything to do until late in the afternoon that day… the BR Crew was right there ( all day ) to move them in a heartbeat, if needed.
Given the evidence ( from Air Attacks Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) that even as early as 12:45 PM when they talked to him… DIVSA Eric Marsh KNEW that the assignment Granite Mountain had started working on that morning was ‘pointless’… it still remains ‘unbelievable’ that Granite Mountain would have stayed up there working on this ‘useless assignment’ for another 3 hours… and would have NOT returned to those Crew Carriers in time to ‘hump out’ exactly when Blue Ridge did.
Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown testified in his typed Unit Log that at NOON that day, when he and Frisby met with Steed and Marsh for that ‘face-to-face’… Brown noticed they only had 100 yards of line built up there.
The FINAL estimate of ‘completed handline’ for GM that day was only in the 145 to 200 yard range.
So that means that from NOON to 3:30 PM ( 3 and 1/2 hours ), this (supposdely) ‘elite’ GM Hotshot crew only completed another 45 to 100 yards of handline.
They should have just COME DOWN the way they went up… long before it became TOO LATE to do so.
At a minimum, they should have left drivers for each vehicle because they were parked in the unburned. No Lessons Learned from the Holloway Fire, i.e. VIMEO video clip.
Even leaving just two behind would have done it.
It would have just taken 3 trips if/when the time came.
And with the amount of recorded ‘work completed’ after 6 and 1/2 hours up there… there was NO REASON to have even taken the ‘whole crew’ up there in the first place.
Surely 17 Type 1 Elite Hotshots could have built a pitiful 145 to 200 yards of handline in 6 and 1/2 hours just as slowly as 19 Type 1 Elite Hotshots.
Correction for above.
The Blue Ridge Crew Carriers WERE parked in the same ‘grassy area’ where the GM Crew Carriers were… but they were not there “all day” as I said above.
What I meant to say was that they were right there next to the GM Crew Carriers for MOST of the day.
Blue Ridge only decided to re-stage their own Crew Carriers over to the Youth Camp when they finally got an ‘assignment’ that day… later in the afternoon.
It wasn’t until SPGS1 Cordes asked them to do some work on improving that ‘dozer push’ from on the ‘Cutover Trail’ that they ( Blue Ridge ) decided to move their Carriers over to the Youth Camp.
That was a ‘better place’ for them to be while the crew was going to be working on that ‘Cutover Trail’ project. The egress off the ‘Cutover Trail’ and to the Youth Camp was now mostly ‘downhill’… and a faster ‘egress’.
If Brian Frisby had not ‘accidentally’ been on that ‘run’ to the west in the UTV for that second face-to-face that Marsh requested… and Frisby had not ‘accidentally’ noticed how fast that western edge of the fireline was approaching Brendan’s lookout position… and then asked Marsh if he wanted his GM vehicles moved…
…there is actually no telling what would have happened to ALL of the GM vehicles.
If not for these ‘accidental’ things happening with Frisby and him ending up OFFERING to ‘move them’… when else would that have become an ‘issue’?
And by the time it did… would there have really been any time for ANYONE to get out there and move them?
Even if Granite Mountain had survived that fire… their vehicles might have ALL been lost that day… quite easily.
Norb thinks he saw the video as well. But it may be a moot point anyway since it would seem to be too late in the game to have had any effect. Either way that wind at 45mph gusts was moving that fire plenty fast so that when it did change direction they had only minutes to live. They were seeing the same thing Joy and I were looking at only I interpreted it different–get down in that basin, no way. I have since calculated that at 11 mph–(Willis estimate?) that fire would make a mile in 5.45 minutes. They had two miles or less distance between them and where they blindly dropped off in that canyon. Just to get down to the place they died took 20 minutes, then the followers at 33 minutes when we timed it with ADOSH. And that was after it looked like the moon surface, though both Bruce and Joy fell on the way down, Bruce with a substantial injury. Take 18 men and the brush intact the time would be greatly increased and perhaps some injuries as well. The steepness and boulders added to the danger, not to mention the heat and exhaustion they exhibited.
As far as a wind and uphill direction of the fire, Norb tells me that 11mph estimate might be wrong–it could be a lot faster. Either way they were skunked once the wind changed–yet I understand they did have warnings that winds were headed their direction before descending into that trap.
There is a question about how long it would take them to get to their drop off point from the black where we knew they were standing. It is timed at 30 minutes (by timing of my own walking) and I believe that might be a good estimate approximating their condition and the heat and even a possible injury. I do not think the injury was there even though they worked a steep boulder area for a 150-200 yards down toward the old grader. I say that becase after they had worked that area we witnessed them in leisure after the line they cut. It was sometime after we left then they had to take that 30 minute hike to the top of where they were about to commit the unthinkable.
There is some discussion about the time they needed through the dense manzanita brush ahead of them (about 600 yards). There definitely is no lock step though that crap. Joy and I forged through that and I don’t care what kind of superman you might be, you will find yourself greatly hindered. In fact they were about half way between the two track and the so called safe zone when the fire caught them. The time they took coming down that mountain had to be much more than Joy and Bruce made it at 33 minutes. You might easily add another 10-15 minutes with brush to work around coming down–so 40 minutes say ought to be a conservative estimate for 18 men, exhausted and roasted from that late June Arizona sun. And I can tell you since Joy and I had forged that very area that early morning of June 30, 2013 that they would have needed at least another 40 minutes to get to the Helms safety zone and I doubt it were unless the doors were open with those blazes. So they were betting 80 minutes against a fire that could take them in a matter of 11 minutes or less if 11mph is slow. Not a good bet with weather reports as they were.
That estimate is pretty good. When we saw Marsh first we just emerged from the brush onto the bottom of the hill at 8:11 am. We left Apt. 15, Oak Park Motel at 3:30 am to start our hike. That means we spent almost 5 hours of hike time getting through about I think only three miles of terrain. You never saw a happier guy than Sonny once we hit that trail and got loose of that manzanita entanglement. This hike was done over my objections, but I wasn’t about to let Joy go alone and she had her mind made up to go come hell or high water. And she had some good arguments–there might be people to warn and one argument that her house and people she knew in Congress might be at risk. I laughed at that one but she was serious.
Now I do hope someone with a crew does take on a hike through that manzanita to let us know the time it actually takes to go half a mile in that shit. Very good information, something Marsh could not have known considering how long it would take to get to the not so safe zone of Helms versus the few minutes the fire would overtake them. 80:11 odds against them–=though they had boulders near enough that I still believe were even better than the Helms– If you go into them and I have been, you will find caves in numerous places due to the huge boulders piled so you can get under them and away from the blast. Helms after all had locked up and left, though I suppose a Pulaski through a doo might have remedied that.
https://youtu.be/_wtnqGBLhKw
my heroes are in above video-
Happy Easter World
Sonny said:
” I said no way that fire could be that close and of course the streets slowed its advance while embers flying through the air were picking and choosing patches of growth between streets and igniting houses. I have since come to conclude that the back burn we saw on video along Shrine road was a factor of that fire getting to the Helms so quickly when winds reversed.”
I want to know if it is possible that GM calculated that they had time to make it to the Helm’s ranch -even though it was a high risk choice to travel through the manzanita- but became trapped by the firing operation that Sonny has mentioned numerous times. Is it POSSIBLE?
Is it possible that since GM buggies were about to be threatened by the fire and had to be moved – this was kept out of being full knowledge by all personnel in the area. Overhead assumed that a hotshot crew would return to their buggies when coming off the hill. Firing of the line proceeded not knowing the path GM was taking off the hill and it trapped them? Is this possible?
Did a firing operation contribute to entrapment of the crew?
Woodsman
Woodsman–We saw what we saw and then to be sure Joy and I went to the rock wall to verify that we were looking at the dirt road above the Shrine. We both saw the drip torches at work. Yavapai Central Fire Department and Sun City Fire Department were in that area, but I have no way of knowing who would be using those drip torches and how much they did light up. The video showed the drip torches being used on some bushes but the clip was not long enough to give a lot of information other than the trees were swaying. Again we have no video, a U tube posting and at the time were not believing this would turn into a situation where very few things were investigated. Mid July or around the third week is what we think we remember of 2013, yet when later we wanted to refer to it, the video was not to be found.
If a back burn were set in that area depending upon the time it was set then it certainly could have been a factor the GMHS did not know about and with the winds as strong as they were in the video, I will let the pros figure that one. As far as Joy and I seeing it –for sure. As far as proving there is one, if deleted can it be revived off U tube? I don’t know that answer. One fire fighter thinks he saw the same video. Thing was we knew there were back burns being set and at first though we were mistaken that it would be Peeples Valley since there are also videos and people that we know who were there seeing those. That is why we had to make a trip back to be sure it was the same low rock wall to identify the video. We are not the only who might have seen the video. But no video, no evidence.
Reply to Woodsman post on March 23, 2016 at 12:04 PM
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I want to know if it is possible that GM calculated that
>> they had time to make it to the Helm’s ranch -even
>> though it was a high risk choice to travel through the
>> manzainita- but became trapped by the firing operation
>> that Sonny has mentioned numerous times. Is it POSSIBLE?
In a word… NO.
I know that Sonny has been mentioning this ‘Shrine Road burnout’ a lot lately… and as anyone who has been following along here knows… I am as open to any/all theories about what happened that day as anyone on the planet… but this has all been covered at length in other ‘Chapters’ and there is still ( currently ) absolutely NO EVIDENCE that anyone ever attempted or initiated ANY kind of manual ‘burn out’ ANYWHERE near the Shrine Road that day.
Especially not any official fire personnel that would have had FIRA or FIRB ratings and using actual ‘drip torches’.
TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel testified to ADOSH that at one point, as they were evacuating the Youth Camp, some consideration was given to ‘lighting up’ that area as they left… but that did NOT happen.
The only manual ‘burnouts’ known to have been initiated that afternoon by any official fire personnel were on the EAST side of Highway 89 and over near the Ranch House Restaurant… to try and protect some structures over there AFTER the fire had already ‘spotted’ over Highway 89. And yes… there are some ‘rock walls’ over in that area as well.
The following video shows pretty clearly that the fireline that would eventually kill Granite Mountain was pretty much the exact same ‘western’ component of the fire that they were sitting there watching with their own eyes ( and taking pictures of ) circa 3:50 PM at that ‘rest spot’. It continually picked up speed in a DUE SOUTH direction the entire time they were hiking south towards the box canyon ( and they should have been able to see this themselves the whole time ).
It swept AROUND those two ‘mounds’ out in the middle bowl that we have been calling ( for lack of any better names ) “Little Round Top” and “Big Round Top”… and then it headed directly for the mouth of the box canyon. The winds and the ‘chimney effect’ helped it make a ‘left turn’ and spread due west in the canyon towards the deployment site.
The following video was developed from that ‘raw footage’ taken by ABC15 Helicopter ‘Air15′ as it was over the Yarnell Fire for a 50 minute period on June 30, 2013 from 3:50 PM to 4:40 PM.
Helicopter Air15 ( Five Hotel Delta ) called Thomas French on the Air-To-Air channel to say they were ‘done filming’ and leaving the area DURING the actual MAYDAY radio call sequence.
Here is the link to the VIDEO…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSYpnPMfPmc
NOTE: When the video above starts… you can see that ‘western part’ of the fireline that was going to eventually kill Granite Mountain in the upper right corner of the video. At the time this video was taken… it was ALREADY ‘flowing around’ the ‘Little Round Top” and “Big Round Top” mounds out in the middle bowl… and heading straight for the mouth of the box canyon.
WTKTT,
I copy. Thank you!
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on March 23, 2016 at 12:04 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Is it possible that since GM buggies were about to be threatened by the
>> fire and had to be moved – this was kept out of being full knowledge
>> by all personnel in the area.
If anyone there had any intentions of keeping the ‘movement’ of Granite Mountain’s vehicles out of harms way some kind of ‘secret’… they weren’t trying very hard.
The Granite Mountain vehicles were driving OUT of the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area the way they all arrived out there that morning. First SOUTH through the Sesame Clearing area to that point where the pavement of both Lakewood and Manzanita begins ( which is where the dozer loboy and one of the BR support trucks was staged ).
Then they drove the GM vehicles right through Glen Ilah, on Lakewood drive, then NORTH on Highway 89 and right through downtown Yarnell ( like a PARADE! ), then they all turned west onto Shrine Road and drove all the way through THAT ‘neighborhood’ and on out to the Youth Camp.
Nah… it was “no secret at all” that the GM vehicles were being ‘moved’. A lot of the discussion about it ended up on the TAC channel(s).
.>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Overhead assumed that a hotshot crew would return to their buggies
>> when coming off the hill. Firing of the line proceeded not knowing
>> the path GM was taking off the hill and it trapped them? Is this possible?
There is still absolutely NO EVIDENCE that anyone ( fire personnel or otherwise ) started any ‘backburns’ that day on the south side of the fire… other than the ones that were known to have been used later in the day on the EAST side of Highway 89 near the Ranch House Restaurant, in order to try and protect some structures over in THAT area.
WTKTT,
Thanks for taking the time to explain all of that. I appreciate it.
Woodsman
Odd that a burn out was started on the East of 89 by the ranch house. Seem like that was a little burn out happy day–that one cost at least one home.
Note the Shrine is a dead end road and was closed off — Actually the Shrine is the end of pavement and just about a hundred yards above it is private property with fenced gate and no entry allowed — what we saw was on the south side of the dirt road. Maybe it was not a burn out but zip torches were lit and bushes being lit. But the clip of that part did not last but maybe 20 or 30 seconds then the camera was turned away. Bummer we could not retrieve that video nor have we been able to get the signing of the document setting the 320 acres restricted on June 16, 2013. However we were told the restriction was in effect earlier than the fire due to extreme fire danger restrictions, and later it became because the GMHS were killed in that area.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on March 23, 2016 at 9:36 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> Odd that a burn out was started on the East of 89 by the
>> ranch house. Seem like that was a little burn out
>> happy day–that one cost at least one home.
The existing evidence for those ‘manual burnouts’ on the EAST side of Highway 89 ( Circa 7:00 PM ) near the RHR comes from TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s handwritten Unit Log… AND his ‘testimony’ to ADOSH.
Here are the last 6 time-stamped entries in TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s handwritten Unit Log…
—————————————————————————-
1750 ( 5:50 PM )
plan to re-engage structures but is too hot and winds increase from N.
1840 ( 6:40 PM )
leave safety zone, resources to save structures on Hwy 89 from cafe to N of downtown. (2) evacuees transported to ICP by myself. Bob + Ruth ( Hodge? ), 22680 W. Manzinita.
1900 ( 7:00 PM )
added E-287 + Phx WT 54 to TF2, resources doing sm burnout on E side of Hwy 89 around Cafe, other units foaming cafe and structures in vicinity, lots of ember wash.
2020 ( 8:20 PM )
DIV Sachara ( Mark Sachara ) takes E-103, E-287, E-131 to Yarnell Hill area for structure protection of threatened homes.
2100 ( 9:00 PM )
resources will either work thru night or keep in rotation, one person awake to monitor, E-156 will work Glen Ilah area thru night, will mitigate all resources in morning.
2200 ( 10:00 PM )
DIV Philbin ( Dan Philbin ) takes night shift DIV.
—————————————————————————-
The following is the ‘entry’ in his Unit Log where he testifies that at 7:00 PM, after the fire had already ‘burned through’ Yarnell… a ‘small manual burnout’ took place to try and protect structures on the EAST side of Highway 89, near the Ranch House Restaurant…
————————————————————————–
1900 ( 7:00 PM )
added E-287 + Phx WT 54 to TF2, resources doing sm burnout on E side of Hwy 89 around Cafe, other units foaming cafe and structures in vicinity, lots of ember wash.
————————————————————————–
Esquibel also mentions these same ‘Unit Log’ entries and the same structure protection efforts on the EAST side of Highway 89 when he was being interviewed by ADOSH.
From TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s one-and-only ADOSH interview
on August 28, 2013…
Q = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator
A = Tyson Esquibel, TFLD(t) at Yarnell, under SPGS1 Gary Cordes
————————————————————————-
2947 A: We had a couple people with us, that, uh – uh, didn’t have transportation and
2948 their stru- — uh, they – they said their house had burned, so we drove them into
2949 ICP…
2950
2951 Q: Okay.
2952
2953 A: …around 1840.
2954
2955 Q: You drove them back up to, uh…
2956
2957 A: Peeples Valley, yeah.
2958
2959 Q: The Model Creek School?
2960
2961 A: Three or 4 miles, yeah.
2962
2963 Q: Okay. So you just stayed out there, 1900, and then you got burnout, foam. So
2964 what’s 2020?
2965
2966 A: Uh, we got a new division trainee. Um, Sachara. He took a few engines, um,
2967 up towards, uh, Yarnell Hill.
2968
2969 Q: Uh-huh.
2970
2971 A: And, uh, they did structure protection, because there was fire encroaching on
2972 those homes.
2973
2974 Q: Okay.
2975
2976 A: And they were successful with that.
———————————————————————–
WTKTT that was definitely the Shrine area–we identified the tan truck going out as well which was in the video at the time. That tan pickup was Mark Danielson evacuating. He was the one no one has been able to locate and believed to be dead in the rocks somewhere –suicide after the fire destroyed his residence. Yes there was and 89 burn out along the main paved highway and also video of burn out on dirt road in Peeples Valley. We have been to all those places–nothing like the Shrine area though–those trees are tall and at 89 no trees only bushes. Had the wind again shifted back to the east then another wild fire would have gone east from 89. There is plenty of brush east of 89 but only a few houses around the Ranch House Café.
Danielson was about the last house before the Shrine–and above the Shrine that rock wall that is still there –nothing in the area comes close to how it is.
Perhaps I should add that even if we can show a burn out there above the Shrine and it was on the west side of the dirt road–the time factor wound be necessary to estimate if it would have anything to do with the GMHS. That video was in the last hour or so of the fire with wind whipping trees like that. It is only a factor to look at and only if we ever retrieve the video with time line.
Charlie says
March 23, 2016 at 7:53 am
OK WTKTT, we will get you a measure of the exact length of the line cut by GMHS. That will clear up some of what you are talking about and what time they spent after Trueheart Brown was at the line with GMHS. Did you have a time for that visit by Trueheart? If not it could maybe be estimated by the 100 yard time line. You cover the details so well, a book by you or at least a synopsis once this is completed would be a great addition from the civilian perspective. You have encouraged much of my own interest–beside my own personal tragedy and the fact we were on the line, lived the evacuation like the Katrina people in that GYM, then did the desert again including 8 months near Congress, Alamo Lake west side almost a month in that March heat, then wandering all over hell. A friend, Matt lent us a cabin in the Navajo Lake area but we could only stand that 9000 ft level for about a month and never were able to acclimate to that high altitude. So it was off to Nevada for a while, then attempts to purchase a property failed so Joy and I disagreed and separated, so I was off to Montana, even meeting Dr. Ted Putnam while I was living in my jeep in the Wal Mart parking lot in Helena for a time still looking for a place to reside.
I truly believe those many hikes we did with important individuals concerned with the fire did me and Joy in. It has taken me some study and time and seeing all these locals die and that I could no long acclimate to anything higher than 6000 ft., then a heart attack in Montana and three more here that I realized my lungs were compromised from the emissions we got here in Yarnell. Most of the NH3 is dissipated over time but the enormous amount that was dropped near Yarnell has taken its toll on the locals. I knew something was wrong not too long after the fire when I was finding myself at times unable to get across a parking lot at Wal Mart without stopping for breath. I was riding bike around Helena for transportation yet suffering all the while and having to stop being winded fast. I fought the chest pains all along and now here at Yarnell after six heart stints and three heart attacks found myself in the worse condition ever as far as stamina and health. I have come to realize it is the elderly that took the brunt of this problem since younger folks can stand to loose a great amount of lung capacity and actually even older folks operate on a slim lung basis.
I will take Joys father who just recently passed for example. He had one lung, even so, smoked 5 packs of cigarettes a day, did no exercise, yet had another mass on the other lung and still lived after the lung was removed in 1987 until 2015–that is 28 more years after the lung was gone and the cigarette habit and other bad lung still in process. It makes me wonder how in 3 years we loose over 83 people in this small town–is there a catalyst among the hidden 8-13% hidden to go along with that lung killing NH3 that make it even more deadly?
Joy’s Dad’s obituary is in today’s Wickenburg sun–I am sure it will tell it as it is–she is that way, including mentioning his enjoyment of Budweiser. You have got to love people like Joy, they tell it as they see it and believe it which means she is not a sheep, but someone not afraid to express the facts.
So the fish killing orange shit now manufactured in Israel and with a goodly amount of secret chemical ingredients dumped near residents is suspect. You wild land fire fighters look the other way as I did as a Uranium miner because that is the occupation you enjoy and want to do just as I did as a miner. You, like myself from Uranium mining won’t know the effects until you are older since it is a time release thing. It only affects those already depleted in health and lung power. You may not even attribute those problems you later find to the hellacious amount of retardant and its emissions you breath in. Your bosses will lie to you since they are brain washed by the chemical companies that this stuff is inert. So was I lied to as a Uranium miner–the small doses you get won’t hurt you. Never mind by now I have had over 20 cancers removed from my body including melanoma, yet none of my three siblings have ever had one removed.
Will this retardant ever have a study for its health effects? Don’t hold your breath–this is a multi-billion dollar chemical industry. They will tell you it is safe as a baby. I think it is safer to smoke cigarettes at 5 packs a day than it is to breath this shit in –especially if you are and elder.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on March 23, 2016 at 9:05 am
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> OK WTKTT, we will get you a measure of the exact length of the
>> line cut by GMHS. That will clear up some of what you are
>> talking about and what time they spent after Trueheart Brown
>> was at the line with GMHS.
In all honesty, Sonny, I don’t think that’s really worth the effort.
The SAIT investigators themselves were ‘out there’ and their final estimate for the total amount of ‘completed handline’ by GM up in that area ended up being represented by that ‘green line’ on their map on page ‘ii’ of the SAIR.
That ‘green line’ is a little ‘fuzzy’ on that map… but it absolutely represents only about 145 to 250 yards of ‘completed handline’.
If you look at that ‘expected line production rates’ chart in the NWCG, that difference between a minimum measurement of 145 yards and a possible maximum measurement of 250 yards only amounts to difference of 45 minutes.
So anyway you ‘cut it’ ( either just 145 or up to a possible 250 yards )… the STORY is still the same. They didn’t accomplish more than what would normally have been just 1 hours worth of work, or perhaps 1 hour 30 or 1 hour 45 minutes.
That doesn’t come anywhere near the 6 ( SIX ) hours they were actually there working in that location.
And that’s why I was just saying that even being someone who is a stickler for details, I myself don’t think it’s worth the effort it will take to determine whether it was REALLY just 145 yards, or REALLY just 200 yards.
Either number still represents a ‘pitiful’ amount of actual ‘productive work’ for 19 (supposedly) elite Type 1 Hotshots working that area… and it doesn’t change the STORY represented there… and/or the indications that those men were already exhausted, sleep-deprived, hungover, or just plain ‘sandbagging’ it that day.
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) also said…
>>
>> Did you have a time for that visit by Trueheart?
Yes. That is an absolute known ( and taken from Brown’s own GPS unit ).
The Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV with Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown in it ARRIVED up there at the anchor point for that face-to-face with Eric and Jesse Steed at exactly 11:55 AM.
The ‘face-to-face lasted almost exactly 30 minutes.
At exactly 12:25 PM… the Polaris Ranger is now ‘on the move’ again and leaving the anchor point to go and drop Brendan McDonough off down at the old-grader.
So call it exactly NOON when Trueheart Brown said in his own typed Unit Log that he ‘noticed’ that Granite Mountain only had 100 yards of line ‘secured’.
Granite Mountain went ‘tools up’ right around 3:30 PM, after Byron Kimball’s 3:30 PM weather report.
So that leaves 3 and 1/2 hours ( between NOON and 3:30 PM ) for Granite Mountain to have added to that 100 yards of ‘line work’ that Brown reported seeing at NOON.
Ok thanks WTKTT. I will see if I can add anything to details when I get them.