Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, and Chapter XVII.
© Copyright 2015 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Please begin Chapter XIX.
As always… THANK YOU, John.
Direct link to the new Chapter XIX ( 19 ) is as follows…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/
I think the GMH were set up and murdered. The city of Prescott was talking about doing away with the group weeks before. I was sent information that can prove this. Brendan was involved.
Robert the Second says
JANUARY 18, 2016 AT 7:31 PM
Marti,
Because so many here and elsewhere wanted so desperately to place blame on AZ State Forestry, the IMT’s, misc. WFF overhead, the WFF culture, Willis, the PFD, and many others.
Those two were the sole responsible parties.
And I say, “Wait just one cotton pickin’ minute here.”
I used to be a pretty good investigator. After all…Janet Napolitano did present me with a “Special Agent of The Year” award in 1996. I haven’t been hitting on all of my cylinders for a few years now, it’s not so much the years, it was all of the fucking MILES.
I knew Darrell Willis for years BEFORE the Yarnell Hill Fire. I was really tight with one of his very best buddies for decades. They are both hard core what…Christian Fundamentalists? I was an INSIDER once, as deep as any insider can get.
I know who you are RTS. Is there anybody in the entire fucking country who works is in the WFF/Industrial Complex who DOESN’T know who you are at this point, given all of the hints you have given out over the past 2 and a half years?
YOU are what…a Christian Fundamentalist as well (ya…no shit Sherlock)? How many fires have YOU been on with Willis. How many times have your prayed together? You still work in the WFF/Industrial Complex for your bread and butter. Or at least the jam you eat with your bread and butter. You are an apologist for Willis and THEM. Oh shit or dear! We do have one inside the wire! You can’t be trusted. You are a subversive! I have met the enemy and it is YOU!
I need to start paying closer attention regarding my situational awareness and watching my 6. Not every bad guy is going to give me 2 and half years to catch on to them…right? How embarrassing.
Of course you did point out a few months ago that we fought fire together on the Murdock Basin Fire and you fucked me over with a night shift because I was a gung ho can do MF! My crew will do whatever you need done, we are from the Mighty Coconino!
So…of course there is always that. I guess I already knew who you are. My how you have changed. So have I. I am not the same gung ho can do MF I used to be…I know now that many of our fire gods have feet of clay! I AM the bonafide REBEL now!
FYI – for you old timers out there. The Murdock Basin Fire was in the Wasatch Mountains on the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest in northern Utah. It was very cold. We got snowed in…in July. Ahhhh….memories.
please with sincerity wwtktt can you check your email on a private question-
I want to have it all printed to send tomorrow and you know how to do what I need and just need guidance for me to do the work…
Brian wants not home..try again soon.
**
** PRESCOTT CONSIDERS ‘SELLING’ GRANITE MOUNTAIN STATION 7 PROPERTY
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Prescott eyeing city-owned properties for ‘potential disposal’
Published: 1/11/2016 6:00:00 AM
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=153795
From the article…
——————————————————————————————
TOP PHOTO: Granite Mountain Station 7 ( Photo by Matt Hinshaw / The Daily Courier )
PHOTO CAPTION: Prescott Fire Department Station 7, where the Wildland Division and the Granite Mountain Hotshots were based, is one of the many properties the city of Prescott is looking into selling.
PRESCOTT – Nearly three-dozen city of Prescott-owned properties located all around the community are under consideration for sale or lease.
In a continuing effort to deal with the city’s budget-shortfall issues, the Prescott City Council heard a presentation Tuesday, Jan. 5, on a list of “holdings for potential disposal.”
Councilman Steve Blair suggested that the city should look further into the Prescott Fire Station No. 7 on Sixth Street (the wildland station, and the former home of the Granite Mountain Hotshots).
Noting that the station is “valuable commercial property,” Blair said the land (totaling about 1.3 acres) has the potential to help pay for the city’s unfunded obligations in the public-safety pension system (PSPRS).
The city eliminated the fire department’s wildland division this past year, after opting not to replace the Granite Mountain Hotshots crew, 19 of whom died fighting the Yarnell Hill wildfire in 2013.
Police Chief Dennis Light said on Wednesday, Jan. 6, that the Sixth Street wildland fire station currently is being used by the department’s remaining three full-time fuels-reduction employees, as well as about six variable-hour (temporary) employees.
——————————————————————————————
NOTE: The article incorrectly identifies ‘Dennis Light’ as the POLICE Chief of Prescott.
He is NOT. He is the (current) FIRE Chief. Dennis Light succeeded Dan Fraijo as Fire Chief when Fraijo was FIRED from that position just shortly after the Yarnell tragedy.
ALSO NOTE: Former Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble is currently one of the 3 full-time fuels reduction employees referred to in the article above. Ronald Gamble’s ‘office’ is former GM Supertinendent Eric Marsh’s ‘office’ at Station 7.
Ronald Gamble is still accepted as the Blue Ridge Hotshot who shot the video with the filename YARNELL-GAMBLE at 4:27 PM in Yarnell, on June 30, 2013.
That’s the video that has the audio capture of Eric Marsh clearly reporting Granite Mountain’s ‘status’ ( to someone… still unidentified ) at 4:27 and saying (quote) “They’re coming from the heel of the fire”. The voice on the radio prior to Marsh’s response ( also still unidentified ) appears to have been urging Eric Marsh to “Hurry up and get to Yarnell”.
This clearly recorded conversation with Eric Marsh took place right in the middle of the 30 minute time period when the Arizona Forestry SAIT investigation team said there were NO verifiable direct communications with Eric Marsh or Granite Mountain.
Ronald Gamble left the Blue Ridge Hotshots and went to work for the City of Prescott just a few months following the June 30, 2013 tragedy in Yarnell.
Followup…
Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble was never INTERVIEWED by ANYONE… even though the SAIT had that video in their possession long before their report came out.
And that specific video was WITHHELD from Arizona State ADOSH investigators, even though there was a specific Inter-AGency FOIA request from ADOSH for (quote) “ALL materials in the SAIT’s possession related to their Yarnell Hill Investigation”.
So Mike Dudley and Jim Karels SUCCEDED in making sure ADOSH never even knew to TRY and request a specific interview with the person who supposedly shot that YARNELL-GAMBLE video with Eric Marsh’s voice in it.
I STILL think someone should just waltz over to ‘Station 7’ ( before Prescott sells it )… and ask Ronald Gamble one simple question…
“Hey Ronnie… do you happen to remember WHO Eric Marsh felt compelled to report Granite Mountain’s ‘travel status’ TO when you were shooting that video at 4:27 PM?”
CALL SIGN?, perhaps?
**
** DAN SULLIVAN POSSIBLY SEEN IN THE TOM STORY PHOTOS
** STANDING NEXT TO THE AMBULANCE
New public video is online…
http://youtu.be/27EPGgtLK7g
YouTube ‘About’ information…
—————————————————————
Various photos of Dan Sullivan, who was hired to be an ASGS at the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013… including photos of the all-aquamarine ‘Prescott National Forest’ 4-door vehicle he was supposedly driving that day, and some photos of him (perhaps) standing near an ambulance in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.
—————————————————————
In the very first photo that Tom Story took after moving to the BACK of the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot… there is a fairly CLEAR profile view of a man in a ‘ball cap’ with a very neatly trimmed ‘triangular’ beard standing right next to the AMBULANCE on the left-side of the photograph.
Basically just underneath ( and a little to the right ) of the back ‘light’ on the top side of the AMBULANCE.
We can see him from about the waist up… facing to the front of the ambulance, with his head, shoulders ball cap and beard framed against the WHITE background and the LOGO of the AMBULANCE itself.
NOTE: The very ‘point’ of what appears to be his ‘beard’ is actually just part of the background ambulance logo. He does appear to have a ‘triangular’ shaped beard, as Bryan Smith described, but it wasn’t as ‘pointy’ as this photo seems to suggest.
He is NOT wearing a yellow Nomex shirt. Looks more like a very dark grey or dark navy-blue button-down, short-sleeve shirt with a collar, or a Blue T-Shirt with some kind of ‘vest’ over it… just as we see Dan Sullivan wearing in the 2014 Assayii Fire briefing video.
He looks VERY much like the man Bryan Smith has been describing as the one who ‘saved’ him and his cousin Pearl Moore that afternoon, and ( according to Bryan ) saw that they got into an AMBULANCE.
Based on the known timing, it is *possible* that Bryan Smith and Pearl Moore are actually inside the ambulance at the time these Tom Story photos were taken.
That Tom Story photo has a filename of…
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1692.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:26 PM, 6/30/13 ).
3 seconds after taking this photo… Tom Story then took 10 ( TEN ) more photos from that same location at the back of the RHR parking lot, all within a time span of only 42 seconds, with the final photo of that sequence taken at 5:12:08 PM.
For the next 7 ( SEVEN ) photos… the man with the ball cap and the triangular beard is still there, standing alongside the AMBULANCE, but we can only see his ball cap because other FFs are now standing in front of him…
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1693.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:29 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1694.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:30 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1695.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:31 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1696.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:41 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1697.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:47 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1698.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:48 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1699.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:49 PM, 6/30/13 )
By the time we reach Tom Story photo 201303_Yanrell_Hill_1700.jpg, taken at 5:12:01 PM, the man with the ball cap and triangular beard is now standing at the REAR of the ambulance, just to the left of one of the open ambulance back doors.
His head, ball cap and face are now seen again just over the spare tire that is sitting in the back of the red-with-white-stripes ‘Sun City West Fire’ engine in the foreground of the photo.
SIDENOTE: This is also the Tom Story photo that appears to capture OPS1 Todd Abel, and his large ‘handlebar mustache’ walking towards the ‘Sun City West’ engine in the foreground, and coming towards the camera in-between the ambulance and that ‘Sun City West’ engine. He is wearing a yellow helmet, black T-shirt, and yellow Nomex shirt.
The man with the ball cap and triangular beard remains there, at the back of the ambulance… for the final two Tom Story photos taken in this same timeframe in the RHR parking lot…
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1701.jpg ( Time taken: 5:12:07 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1702.jpg ( Time taken: 5:12:08 PM, 6/30/13 )
…but that ‘spare tire’ in the back of the ‘Sun City West’ engine in the foregound obscures his face and beard in those final two photos. All we can see is the top of his ball cap in those last two Tom Story photos.
There is no ‘proof’ this is the same man that Bryan Smith described as ‘saving’ him and Pearl Moore that afternoon, but it’s curious that we now see someone matching Bryan Smith’s exact description of that man standing right near that ambulance that ( at the time these Tom Story photos were taken ) very likely already had Bryan and Pearl inside of it.
Where are we trying to go? What are we trying to do?
I really don’t know anymore.
Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed are responsible for the deaths of themselves and their crew.
Got that. I think we’ve pretty well nailed that.
Does anything else really matter?
If so, what is that? ‘And why?
Why are we still here, arguing?
Sorry Marti
In the Fire world I don’t think so.
We were all looking for a reason other than the crew.
Their may be other factors but I and most of my old friends from the Wild Land Fire Fighters have all concluded Marsh and Steed made the Fatal decisions.
The Granit Mountain Hot Shots had some serious internal problems all of which
set off a final chain reaction. No single factor was responsible.
The overhead as well had their problems but they did not cause the crew to walk into that brush filled canyon. They did that on their own.
There are some hidden pieces to the story but they wont change who is at fault here. In reality their is a lot of blame to go around. Responsibility is the real burden and it rest in one place.
.
I believe we have identified the primary factors in the deaths of the GMIHC and we have identified many of the contributing factors.
Other than that, I think we are in a holding pattern while we wait for additional information because many of us don’t want to quit while there are still unanswered questions and unknown factors.
We can’t make that happen, we just have to do what we can in the meantime and be patient until something breaks that information loose from those that have it..
I have learned a great deal throughout this process about myself, the world of wildland firefighters. life and death. the world in general which certainly includes some interesting people and their ideas.
So…I am pretty happy with the results all things considered and it might even get better and I might learn a lot more before it is finally over. I will continue to take breaks for my mental health and I suggest everyone else to the same….except for WTKTT because he is our robo blogger.
Marti,
Because so many here and elsewhere wanted so desperately to place blame on AZ State Forestry, the IMT’s, misc. WFF overhead, the WFF culture, Willis, the PFD, and many others.
Those two were the sole responsible parties.
I agree except for the 49% that belongs to their sending unit. Although I will agree that I am trying to thread the needle with a very nuanced argument that the City of Prescott has shared responsibility for this disaster because of all of the reasons I have been identifying for years now at this point.
The GMIHC had the overwhelming burden of trying to manage the fact that they were a hybrid crew sponsored by a town that lacked the organizational, management, and fiscal resources to give them the support network every hotshot crew relies to function proficiently in challenging situations and environments.
All we have to do is look at the evidence that has always been right in front of us. There were 2 hotshot crews on the Yarnell Hill Fire. These crews were basically working in the same area (it wasn’t a very big wildfire) with similar responsibilities.
The federal hotshot crew withdrew to a rally point to regroup and “sit on their asses” as WTKTT is so fond of saying, and the hotshot crew sponsored by a small town structural fire department whose jobs were on the city bean counters chopping block and who were under enormous pressure to “save ” the Wildland Fire Division” while being led by a man who was fixated on the bizzaro world philosophy to “risk a lot to save a lot” and who thinks the preferred course of action for wildland firefighting hand crews to run into burning buildings took extraordinary and to date inexplicable measures to beat the fire front to town in order to reengage the in some secret Hail Mary Plan by marching DOWN INTO A BRUSH CHOKED DEATH CHUTE DIRECTLY INTO THE PATH OF A FIRESTORM OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS EVERYBODY COULD SEE COMING and had actually been forecast hours earlier by weather experts who said the fire would do exactly what it did, when they said it would do it!
Why are we still arguing about this? What don’t YOU PEOPLE get!.
And the rest is wildland firefighting history…2 + 2 = 4 Duhhhhhhhhhhhh!
NUANCED ARGUMENT MY ASS! MY ARGUMENT IS ABOUT AS NUANCED AS A BATTLE FORMATION OF M1A ABRAMS TANKS!
In other words, it is not hard to see or understand…just open your eyes and take a peek.
There has been so much time pass and so many examples have gone by I can’t even remember all of them. For example, here’s one. I said more than 2 years ago that if I would have gotten an employee appraisal like Eric Marsh got from Darrell Willis…I would have been looking for another job because I would have felt like I had one foot out the door and the other one on a banana peel (one of my BLM mis-managers actually used that line on me which once prompted me to go to the USDI OIG ASAP with my case report on HIM…he lost).
There was one problem with that idea that we didn’t know at the time, Eric Marsh was ALREADY on his second act after getting the USFS Globe Hotshots sent home from the Clear Creek Fire in Idaho for smoking pot and drinking alcohol on the fire line with a bunch of crewmen which included the saw team when he was on detail as an acting squad boss. Where was he going to go next? Willis was already on his behind because he wouldn’t sign off on the falsified and bogus hotshot crew certification!
Marsh was put in a position (and he put himself in a position) that he had two choices;
1. Meet the expectations of Willis and the City of Prescott Fathers and stay in line to be the next Wildlands Division Chief at more than $90,000 a year by amping up to meet or exceed the revenue neutral criteria and double down on their recent Doce Fire home town hero status; OR
2. Walk down the White Spar Highway (SR 89) kicking a can.after he left Willis’ office because he just got FIRED and replaced by the Magnificent Everybody Just LOVES working with and for Jesse The Greek God Steed!
Hmmmmm, We are going to have to bring Captain OBVIOUS in on this one.
In the meantime….which one do you think Eric Marsh choose on the Yarnell Hill Fire for his future?
Vote early and vote often!
Oh and a couple of more things.
1. WTKTT – I just can’t get excited about joining you on your elaborate and carefully crafted and coreographed chronilogical, laborious and very detailed effort to indict the entire wildland firefighting community at the national level for total and complete incompetence at every level and by every standard.
2. Marti – I’m sorry but I can’t join you in fixing everything that is wrong with the entire wildland firefighting community at the national level as we move on to dissect the Twisp Fire and all of the fires that have been bungled since the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Because….I CAN’T EVEN FIND OUT WHAT WAS SO FUCKING IMPORTANT THAT MADE THE GMIHC LEAVE HUNDREDS OF ACRES OF SAFE BLACK WHILE AT THE SAME TIME THE OTHER HOTSHOT CREW ON THE YARNELL HILL FIRE WAS MAKING A TACTICAL WITHDRAWAL TO REGROUP AND AWAIT FURTHER ORDERS TO A SAFETY ZONE THAT WAS NOT NEARLY AS SAFE AS THE ONE THE GMIHS LEFT…WILLINGLY! ALL BECAUSE THE FIRE WAS GOING TO HELL IN A HAND BASKET….AND NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT, THE YARNELL HILL FIRE HAD ALREADY DONE GONE TO HELL IN A HAND BASKET AND ALL THAT WAS LEFT TO DO WAS PICK UP THE PIECES OF WHAT WAS LEFT!
I was a hotshot crew boss on 2 National Forests for 7 years in hyper hotshot programs on steroids (one I inherited and one I built from scratch) where risk takers and the very boldest were admired and rewarded.
And I either managed to always choose wisely or recover from my fuck-ups so I get to sit here an judge Eric Marsh…but you know (rhetorical question) what?
I was never faced with the choice Eric Marsh had to make on the Yarnell Hill Fire…either double down on what had gotten him that far and win big…or play it safe and stay in the black and lose big.
I can’t honestly say what I would have done if I would have been him that day…and you can’t say for certain what YOU would have done either.
Especially since Marsh had a track record of…how does that go RTS? Prior piss poor decisions with good outcomes?
Fuck it! Roll the flaming dice! That was the logo for Granite Mountain 7…right?
And I have got to say it even though it even though it is so trite…they rolled the dice and came up with Snake Eyes!
How prophetic was that logo? I think I will put a pair of flaming dice (showing a 4 and a 3 or was it a 5 and a 2?) on the cover of the book I will never finish…”The Rise of the Hybrid Firefighter and the True Story of the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster”
Wait…what about the crew? Where did they fit into the machinations of this…abortion of a telenovela without the sex…I think, but with plenty of power grabbing bureaucrats?
They were pawns (I was on my high school chess team) and in the end collateral damage as one old man struggled to hang on to his Golden Parachute as the King of Double Dippers with all of that federal fire pay and one middle aged man’s blind ambition to outlive the seriously flawed decisions he had made as a slightly younger middle aged man plus one Greek God (who unfortunately for 17 young men who were just starting out in their adult lives) had trained as a Marine and had been indoctrinated into the GMIHC culture of black and white tiles who simply wanted to provide for his young family by replacing the middle aged man after he finally got the old man’s job after the old guy had finally gotten his fill at the City of Prescott trough.
You couldn’t make this stuff up. And if you did, you would be accused of creating an over- the- top story line.
May God Bless America!
And here is where Bob (God Bless You) and RTS….OK, may God Bless You As Well get to jump in and say with all of the sanctimonious bluster you can manage….I KNOW WHAT I WOULD HAVE DONE….I WOULD HAVE FOLLOWED THE 10 AND THE 18 PLUS MY LCES TO THE LETTER OF THE LAW….I TELL YOU….TO THE VERY LETTER OF THE LAW!
You didn’t read the fine print in this game. You have to put yourselves in the same position Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed were in, without the benefit of everything you had going for you in your careers. The CULTURE and the HISTORY of the Silver Backed Mountain Gorillas Tribe you belonged to and without the all of the management, organizational and fiscal resources and structure that supported you!
And did I mention the CULTURE and the HISTORY of the organization that both of you benefited greatly from. The organization that gave you the cornerstone and the solid footings from which you able to built your careers upon?
Huh? How about that?
Whoops!
I forgot the MOST IMPORTANT one,TRADITION! All three of us benefited from the rich CULTURE, HISTORY and most of all the deep TRADITION of the finest and most professional wildland firefighting organization the world has ever….or will ever see!
Perfect…WTKTT and Marti?
Not by a long shot, but they are still the best we have or ever will have…deal with it.
Unfortunately….the gene pool was forever diluted and tainted by the mad scientist experiment known as ICS with all of the cross breeding with structural FIREMEN, followed by inbreeding and subsequent unholy mutations!
You young wippersnappers will never see the Glory that my old eyes have seen! Pity.
Double Whoops!
Forgot to name the magnificent organization I am speaking of…The USDA – Forest Service.
Oh…and one more thing.
I am pretty sure my book IS finally finished. You just have to sort through 18 Chapters of other stuff and piece my chapters together to be able to read it since I think I just finished the very last chapter except for a addendum that will finally discuss what part exactly the GMIHC was to play in the poorly conceived and that someone attempted to execute shortly before resigning themselves to the fact they were going to have to order a gross of body bags for all of the elderly citizens everybody thought were for sure piled up in the smoldering ruins of Yarnell and Glen Isla because the evacuation was handled so poorly…or not at all.
You stupid fucks really dodged the bullet (actually a whole bunch of bullets on that one). Giving Gary Cordes an award for that disaster is kind of like giving the Captain of the Titanic and award for dodging ice bergs..
That photo with Tony Sciacca and Cordes grinning from ear to ear is enough to make me throw up a little bit in my mouth.
You don’t get to say “Gee, the wildfire exponentially outperformed all of our expectations” when hundreds of lives are on the line.
OK Sonny and Joy….that was a big finish for me and I said something positive and supportive of all of the Good Citizens of Yarnell and it’s burbs.
Marti Said
>Where are we trying to go? What are we trying to do?
>
>I really don’t know anymore.
Marti, well…..I think we’re trying to get publicity…. for Truth.
…based on what has been discovered here, there is a public announcement, or mainstream media pick up that the official investigations (SAIT/ADOSH) into the Yarnell Hill Fire missed the mark and new ones need to be setup to bring daylight to the truth.
I’m guessing what we don’t want is recognition as individuals – this is not a “Fame” game, we’re not after awards (they could quite easliy be awarded to the wrong people!!!!), I’m not even sure we want recognition that we’ve seen the truth because it clearly hit us in the face everytime we actually looked at the evidence – that’s just standard stuff that anyone with a bit of common could do.
At the moment, we’re clinging to every new insight or lead, especially when it can be shown a bus can be driven through SAIT/ADOSH because of the new evidence, and it ultimately discredits SAIT/ADOSH. Each time we hope that mainstream media will say “Oh Gosh – all that stuff we printed way-back-when was garbage, and fed to us, and Jimminy Cricket – it wasn’t the truth. Lets get to the bottom of this, get through the cover up, and bring the truth to the public.”
While the Yarnell Hill Fire was devastating and tragic to a lot of people, Watergate this ain’t! We (and the avid silent listeners-in to this campfire) are the only ones still interested in “The Truth”, some are probably listening here to see how close they are to being “outed” (and they should be worried – because this group has a habit of callin’ folks out on their lies), I hope most are probably listening silently, wanting the truth to be brought out.
So there we are…. waiting for the day all the lies and BS is cut through, the Truth is out and everyone ELSE knows and accepts what really happens. AND SOMEONE IN WFF TAKES NOTE AND DOES EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO PREVENT IT HAPPENING AGAIN!
of course I could be wrong, we all have our own reasons and drivers for participating here.
Hopefully you read the above from Gary. The things I have said and the things RTS has said.
Reflect on fire seasons 2014 and 2015.
Over 100 IR Hot Shot Crews No Burn overs No deployments.
The lessons have already been learned and refresher training on.
The 10 Standard Orders
The 18 situations that shout watch out.
The lessons learned was the Failure to follow them by GMIHS.
Yes Gary even in my day you had the right to refuse a order if it violated any of the above. The LOOP FIRE Two Hotshot crews refused to do what gung-ho King did with ElCariso and he was right there with the other two Superintendents.
They were not chastised for refusal 1966. Hot shot crews and even some Crew Bosses have been refusing assignments for years. Yes I would have stayed in the Black Putting my entire crew in danger for a promotion was not in my thought pattern, Never was for any reason Yes I was a hard head when it came to safety.
I am posting this to push back against the steady and incessant drum beat to blame the GMIHC for their own deaths and no one else.
I made my bones on this thread by blaming Willis (or someone else in authority) who ordered, advised, requested or simply EXPECTED Granite Mountain to risk a lot in order to try and save a lot and the city fathers who had put them under a cost cutting microscope and thereby created undue stress on Marsh to produce unrealistic results to be revenue neutral AND be home town heroes at the same time with more expected from them the next time every time the deliver the goods the last time. I have since modified that to admit the yes, it was mostly Eric Marsh’s fault but I would still score the tragedy this way…if I was a GOD (with that power)!
Eric Marsh – 51%
Jesse Steed – Pass (Not logical, but I am deciding this as if I am a GOD, so deal with it)
Squad Bosses – 0
Crewmen – 0
Fire Team – 0
Willis, unknown person(s), City of Prescott (Mayor and City Council) and the culture and expectations of the PFD – 49%
I am also going to push back on what I consider to be a misleading theory that GOD was involved in tragedy by taking direct action, specifically in the areas of free will or master planning. I am going to take this plunge even though I fully aware that I am not qualified by any measure to engage in a theological discussion beyond the very basics.
Question
I type:
dmgugynmedmdchdbevwjdkltlh,mshjsgejrfkg,f.b,cnzm/f.rfkgtjgnrf,e/.kxbVBHm33u5mgoou84jnrkg,
Is it part of God’s Plan and my free will that…
1. I am here on this earth?
2. I am here on this earth and able to type?
3. I am here on this earth and able to type on this blog?
4. I am here on this earth and able to type on this blog these characters dmgugynmedmdchdbevwjdkltlh,mshjsgejrfkg,f.b,cnzm/f.rfkgtjgnrf,e/.kxbVBHm33u5mgoou84jnrkg,
5. I am here on this earth and able to type on this blog these characters dmgugynmedmdchdbevwjdkltlh,mshjsgejrfkg,f.b,cnzm/f.rfkgtjgnrf,e/.kxbVBHm33u5mgoou84jnrkg, in this specific order?
6. I am here on this earth and able to type on this blog these characters dmgugynmedmdchdbevwjdkltlh,mshjsgejrfkg,f.b,cnzm/f.rfkgtjgnrf,e/.kxbVBHm33u5mgoou84jnrkg, in this specific order at this exact moment in time (5:11 PM PST on Saturday, January 16)?
7. I am here on this earth and able to type on this blog these characters dmgugynmedmdchdbevwjdkltlh,mshjsgejrfkg,f.b,cnzm/f.rfkgtjgnrf,e/.kxbVBHm33u5mgoou84jnrkg, in this specific order at this exact moment in time once again (5:13 PM PST on Saturday, January 16)?
8. And now stop typing those specific characters in that order ever again for the rest of my life? Just how far down into the weeds does your God get in taking direct action on everything I do?
I always shake my head in disgust every time someone in Tornado Alley stands in front of the rubble of their neighbors houses and gives thanks to God for saving them from disaster because God loves them and has special plans for them in the future while glossing over the fact that the tornado killed an entire family next door to them.
What…God didn’t love their neighbor or have any plans for them in the future? God didn’t have plans for even the babies or the 10 year child who was killed on their birthday?
Wait…I know! God moves in mysterious ways and it is not our place to know or understand his ultimate plan for the family that was spared or the family that was killed. God loved them equally, he just had varied plans for each of those either spared or killed and somehow grouped them together to all either live or die within that specific event and at that specific time and place?
FYI – My God just doesn’t get that involved in everything I or anyone else does. I believe that some things just happen randomly, good, bad and indifferent, without any particular reason and therefore without those things being part of any specific plan.
Whoops forgot some..
State of Arizona, Division of Forestry – 0
CHAOS – 0
Both of these forces get zero, because both of them were doing what they do, and have always done in similar circumstances and will do TOMORROW (and always) if given the chance and that is why it is so important that highly qualified, experienced and competent leaders make correct decisions for those under their command for the right reasons.
“State of Arizona, Division of Forestry – 0”
Although I agree with you on everything else, I’m not quite ready to cede this one, altogether. Especially after the deaths on the Twisp River Fire this summer.
I do believe that if we are going to get at Lessons Learned, in order to minimize the deaths on wildland fires threatening the Wildland Urban Interface Zone, we need to look at the thinking and strategizing on the overhead level.
We still don’t know if there was any kind of influence exerted on or agreed to with Eric Marsh to bring that crew down to “protect structures” in Glen Illah, via the Hail Mary Plan (that we do know,now, existed), all things considered.
Wildland firefighters are getting killed and burned in the WUI more than structural firefighters are.
Shouldn’t asking about whether, maybe, the human factors issues (including the institutional ones) on this fire were in play regarding this, on the management level, be pursued, rather than just accepting “State of Arizona, Division of Forestry – 0”?
And to add to that.
Maybe I’m too much of a Tony Sciacca fan. But he managed the Slide Fire with a number one priority of making sure that the wildland firefighters went home alive, imho.
And I believe (although I have no “proof” to defend that) that he may very well have done that with the Yarnell Fire in mind.
And I really believe that had he arrived at the Yarnell Fire much earlier than he did (thanks to the screw-ups in the dispatching system), we would not be still talking about this because he would have intervened on the GMHS’ ill-fated plan, as well as some other stuff.
Maybe I’m just crazy or idealistic or something, but it seems to me that how a fire is managed by the organization that is managing it matters.
You seem to be saying it doesn’t.
““State of Arizona, Division of Forestry – 0″
I give State of Arizona Division of Forestry at least a 50 for,(in order to save money, dispatching a Type 2 Short Team that didn’t have enough resources, so the Incident Commander spent Sunday plugging in his holes instead of managing his fire), under-resourcing this fire, and then losing it. With the consequences we are still talking about.
Marti,
This situation reminds me of the old joke, “I have taught you everything I know and still you don’t know anything.”
Seriously folks….you really don’t “get” the relationship between ALL overhead and a hotshot crew boss. When it comes to the safety of your crew NO overhead matter, and NOTHING they say and NOTHING they do (short of direct action like starting a back fire below your position) can endanger your crew.
The only thing that can endanger your crew is how you (as the hotshot crew boss) react to anything, any overhead say’s (orders) does. Every hotshot crew boss starts with the assumption that all overhead are idiots who are motivated by factors other than the safety of your crew and then you slowly build from that position.
I wrote about me being sent home from the Scott Fire because the sector boss who was then followed and supported by the line boss when all of them gave me a direct order that was counter to the best interests of my crew and that was back in the day before the turn down protocols.
And then the crew (Santa Fe) was sent home with me after they threw spit cups, soda cans and half eaten fruit and sandwiches at the sector boss when he gave the same order to the crew after I had been relieved of my command.
No overhead can put your crew at risk unless you empower them do do so. The key is to never empower them to be able to do that.
The same thing goes for CHAOS, Arizona State Forestry, the BLM, and every other Tom, Dick and Harry meets Sally…nobody has that power unless you give it to them and if you do….then it is on YOU as the hotshot crew boss.
It is the job of the sending unit (in the case of the USFS…a District FMO who supervises the hotshot crew boss to know he or she will have their backing if they do the right thing for their crew) and that is what empowers the crew boss to do the right thing.
If I hotshot crew boss does the right thing and has the backing of their sending unit, the very worst anybody can do to hurt them is to send them home from a fire and if that happens, that is probably a good thing because the management of the fire is really going south.
The worst thing an incompetent fire team, the State of Arizona (and lots of other underfunded state fire management agencies) the BLM, CHAOS can to to you is kill you AND YOUR CREW!
Choose wisely and then live long and prosper.
Say Hell Ya—Give me a Amen I say a AMEN………….
Thanks Gary, well said. I’m going to expand on that some.
WFF’s talk of the IC being the most powerful entity in the WF world. Yes, they are in a way, however, I feel the ‘old school’ Hot Shot Crew Superintendent is by far THE most powerful being in the WF world.
And the GOOD Hot Shot Crew is one of the most powerful and effective WF resources in the world, and fits in well with the other ‘Best Bang’ For Your Federal Tax Dollar’ entities (NOT in any particular order) along with the Navy Seals, the Army Rangers, the Air Force Para-rescue (PJ) and Combat Control forces, the U.S. Marines, the National Weather Service, the General Accountability Office, and others. However, the GMHS would have some overhead questioning the above knowledge, skills, and abilities of Hot Shot Crews.
Even though the HS Supts. are qualified at the TFLD and/or DIVS level, they think like and manage like an Operations Section Chief (OPS). They are USUALLY very well experienced and fir into the Type A category, open and unafraid of most anything (in the WF world), and very opinionated. In MOST cases they ALREADY have ‘The Plan’ in their head of what NEEDS to be done on/with the fire.
In Southern California, on FEDERAL wildfires, the Resources are directed in their IAP’s (Incident Action Plan) to report to a Drop Point (DP) to gather and meet with overhead to come up with ‘The Plan’ for the operational period.
The Hot Shot Crew Superintendents already have ‘The Plan’ worked out from the HS Crew overhead scouting and planning and such. They present it to the DIVS and the DIVS then presents it to the Branch Director for approval. It works slightly similar in other Regions.
And their Crew overhead (Assistant, Squad Bosses, Senior Crewmembers, and even some Crewmembers) are MUCH MORE QUALIFIED, and certainly experienced, than MOST WF overheard on the IMT’s and as Single Resource Overhead that fill in on IMT’s as seen on the YH Fire.
Sometimes though, it is a ‘Love/Hate’ relationship with Hot Shot Crews and IMT’s. ‘They’ love you when ‘they’ need you and after that, you are a pain in their ass. And they usually have the most personnel issues with time and travel and disciplinary, etc. Understandable
IMT’s and IC’s USUALLY know and appreciate them for what they are; a highly sought after, SAFE, highly skilled, self-sufficient firefighting machine, complete with their own overhead. Not all Hot Shot Crews are created equal. as we know from the YH Fire.
Without Hot Shot Crews fighting fire in the United States, there would be death and destruction in the wildlands and especially in the WUI, and mayhem would abound; whole towns would burn.
Gary,
I believe that it was mostly Jesse Steed’s fault because he was the Acting GMHS Superintendent with the ultimate responsibility for the GMHS safety and welfare NO MATTER WHAT ELSE CAME TO BE! NO MATTER THEIR AGENCY, THEIR BOSS, THEIR DEPARTMENT, THEIR PROPOSED BUDGET, THE WEATHER, THE WFF CULTURE, NO MATTER WHAT!
THE GMHS OVERHEAD KNEW BETTER or SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER TO FOLLOW THE WFF RULES AND STAY PUT IN THEIR PERFECTLY GOOD SAFETY ZONE the afternoon of 30 June 2013. NO MATTER WHAT!
Here’s how I would rate the GMHS fatalities:
Jesse Steed – 50%
Eric Marsh – 20%
Squad Bosses – 10%
Crewmen – 10%
Fire Team – 0
Willis, unknown person(s), City of Prescott (Mayor and City Council) and the culture and expectations of the PFD – 10%
State of Arizona, Division of Forestry – 0
CHAOS – 0
God is in control. He is the Creator and God of the Universe. ALL things happen because He allows them to happen, YET He gives us FREE WILL AND FREE CHOICE to either follow His Will or ignore His Will and follow our own.
I too am amazed and at the same time somewhat in awe every time someone in Tornado Alley stands in front of the rubble of their neighbors houses and gives thanks to God for saving them from disaster because God loves them and has special plans for them in the future. How do you know they are glossing over the fact that the tornado killed an entire family next door to them? It may be that they know and accept that God saved them yet allowed the family next door to die.
God loved their neighbor as much as them yet He had other plans for them in the future. God did have plans for even the babies or the 10 year child who was killed on their birthday because He allowed it. This goes on every day throughout the world as well as incredible blessings of friendship and life and healing and peace and so much more. God tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5:18,: “… in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.”
Yes, God does move in mysterious ways and it is not our place to know or understand His ultimate plan for the family that was spared or the family that was killed. God loved them equally, He just had varied plans for each of those either spared or killed and somehow grouped them together to all either live or die within that specific event and at that specific time and place.
FYI – My God DOES get that involved in everything I or anyone else does. I believe that He is in control of all things. I do NOT believe that some things just happen randomly, good, bad and indifferent, without any particular reason and therefore without those things being part of any specific plan.
RTS said: God is in control. He is the Creator and God of the Universe. ALL things happen because He allows them to happen, YET He gives us FREE WILL AND FREE CHOICE to either follow His Will or ignore His Will and follow our own.
Did you mean follow Willis or His will RPS..
Still think God had no will in this thing–What it does do is to give future fire fighters an example not to follow. I was there that day, and even an idiot could see that the best plan wound not to in any way, shape or form get yourself trapped in some manzanita with the fire already uncontrollable.
I can see that talking here on this site will never help people understand well enough–especially if you are to be in the wild fire fighting business. The worse possible thing is to restrict that area from fire fighters and future fighters to enter the area. Unless you wear the boots of those men by walking their actual path and seeing what they saw and their vantage points you never get the feel of what actually went down. In my estimation it is a gross error to shut people out. To go there should almost be a mandatory thing for young firefighters. There is just too much to learn from the mistakes they made that day–For certain lives would be saved by the education from such a hike. For that is more than a hike, it is a solemn and tearful journey that those brave and lost souls would want every one of their fellow fire fighters of the world to take.
Sonny,
You posted: “and even an idiot could see that the best plan [would] not to in any way, shape or form get yourself trapped in some manzanita with the fire already uncontrollable.”
That’s right. And so you had at least two ‘idiots’ that were well trained and experienced WFF that acted like ‘idiots’ that day, even though they were supervisors. I say they acted like ‘idiots’ that day based on their long habit of making bad decisions and getting away with them. And the GMHS Crewmembers had choices, and they chose to follow even though they knew better.
The YH Fire was the final straw.
Exactly, RTS. Now it behooves the investigators to tell the whole truth of the deadly decisions that were made that day and the influences that caused those decisions.
Because there was an intense desire to paint the GMHS in a good light and especially those who ran the show so badly, we had a cursory investigation and a no blame type investigation. Investigators did their best to avoid anything that might entail a law suit or make someone look bad, that eventhough it is obvious to anyone willing to look into this how terrible the situation was handled throughout.
Exactly and it was strange that a number of those beside Marse and Steed were seasoned wild land fire fighters, yet they too followed Steed down into that basin against all reason. That has to be human factors, something Dr. Ted Putnam follows closely. Understanding those factors and educating fire fighters about those problems will certainly save lives.
They definitely went against all reason and against all the basic safety rules. To say that they just were doing what they were compelled to do (either by their own volition or by orders) to protect structures by risking all makes no sense.
What does make sense is that they were compelled by human factors and humans. Those of wisdom well experienced in smoke jumping and wild land fire fighting have said that the system is ready to protect its reputation at the expense of the safety and lives of future wild land fire fighters.
This is a sad situation. Yet the people we see that want a true investigation and are not afraid to admit that this was a badly managed ordeal are revealing the facts. So we remain optimistic in revealing what really is behind the botched Yarnell fire fighting ordeal.
Indeed, anyone taking on a job as a wild land fighter deserves to be a hero. Yet it is best to be a live hero rather than a dead one, so these matters of safety are of utmost importance. Let the truth express itself toward that goal and here are those contributing toward that goal.
Thanks, JD, and all your friends who respect the truth over a white wash.
Here is a truth that I keep harping on even though I don’t like too much harp music. Harps are fine but fiddles can make you dance.
That 320 acres with a few more million of tax dollars would make an excellent wild land fire fighting training area. The two track and following the GMHS errors would be the greatest education to saving novice wild land fire fighters. To take that two track from beginning to the point of fire origen and back to a base camp at the center of the basin would have to be a highlight of any young fire fighters training. That manzanita is already back strong enough that it would give the young firefighter good learning to bushwhack that dense growth enough to understand the danger of getting caught in the situation they were in. To visit the old grader and know how little protection that was as evidenced by its burned off tires and blued steel plate and despite it had what one would think might be a good place to deploy under one of those fire blankets and despite what seemed to be a cleared out area around it of 30 ft. or so on each side. To look at the melted aluminum cans around it and lead melted out of old carnation cream cans–this kind of thing would educate and save lives. To descend that steep ridge into the death basin and to see and understand what caused those mens deaths and actually bushwhack the area where they erred would be an indelible lifesaver. It would impress upon them to follow the safety procedures even if some outside influences would have them not to.
Tax payers would gladly invest in saving lives that way and it would be a tribute and honor to those GMHS.
Sonny,
I agree on the access and availability of the YH Fire and GMHS fatality Site. We need to be allowed all the way there and above as well at their Safety Zone if we are to truly learn anything. We need to walk where they walked. And it needs to be open to ALL and not just a select few if it’s to be of any value as a training opportunity and Lessons Learned site.
And one more thing, you keep mentioning manzanita, however, what I remember of Yarnell that it was predominately Turbinella or Scrub Oak. I don’t recall seeing any manzanita.
Where the men died was +or- 95% manzanita. There was some shrub oak and cat claw as well. The shrub oak was mostly dispersed on the decline from two track and even a few pinon near the two track. If you look at Joy’s photos, one is right at the spot they died and shows the dense manzanita growth as predominant. At the time they went down it was at waist high to chest high and jumbled together so that certain areas were totally impassable. I called those bear wallows since animals such as bear, dear and javelina had tromped it down enough the stick, much dead, were laying parallel to the ground and mixed into the vertical green growth.
That area where they died we had crossed and argued. It was early morning and breaking day. The fire was still in the boulders some two miles or so from that point to the NW. I wanted to go straight up to the two track, but Joy wanted to go around the north ridge of the basin, then up the canyon to the two track. That meant a greater distance through the manzanita and that was a chore I wanted to avoid as much as possible. It is a tough go even for two people where you wind up back tracking and attempting different paths to get though the dense growth. Much of the time you found yourself on hands and knees or on belly wiggling under the brush. You sometimes wonder when you would come face to face with a rattler, or even a coyote or cougar. To a hiker and mountain lover it is all part of the hike–to be experienced cheerfully or not at all. Not for the light hearted, but excellent boot camp training, or preliminary wild land fire fighting training.
I believe it was mostly Jesse Steed’s fault as well. I have said many times that if I an investigator investigating the Yarnell HIll Fire I would have recommended in the strongest terms possible that both Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed be prosecuted for manslaughter if they would have survived their disastrous, foolhardy and completely reckless choices.
And actually, I give Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed the same score in that they share the 51% blame since I don’t believe the egotistical, easily threatened and insecure Eric Marsh ever really gave up supervision of the GMIHS.
I was just playing a game (I said it wasn’t logical) where I was A God and had the power to give amnesty to Jesse Steed because I have a special place for him in my heart because he was under so much pressure to do what he knew was so wrong.
Things like his Marine Corps training followed by his hotshot crew culture can-do gung-ho indoctrination followed by his real motivation, not wanting to lose his job, the responsibility of providing for his family because Eric Marsh was such an …….
I didn’t mean “amnesty”, I meant that as a God I would pardon Jesse Steed, I would still punish him accordingly, but I would pardon him in the end.
I also be believe that once Marsh and Steed made the decision they did, the squad bosses really didn’t have a choice except to get in line. They may have made their objections known, which they should have done but we will never know, but once they were overridden, I think they had to get in line.
That’s how hotshot crews work (I think) and it almost always works out well, it hasn’t worked out well on only 4 fires in the history of hotshots. That is a pretty good average.
It was fairly common knowledge that there was a great deal of animosity and tension between Marsh and Steed regarding leadership and egos and more, when Marsh was on ‘light duty’ due to his mountain biking accident. One WF supervisor from the Doce Fire remarked ‘they just LOVED working for Steed.’
I believe that Marsh was concerned that he was ‘losing control’ of the GMHS while Steed was managing the Crew and that concerned him a great deal.
I think this came out fairly obviously on the YH Fire during the ‘discussing our options’ Crew Net radio transmissions, heard on the MacKenzie video clips and with what McDonough came forward with to Willis and then the Prescott Town Attorney, regarding the back-and-forth between Marsh and Steed about leaving and bring the GMHS down to the BSR or staying in ‘the black.’.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
January 17, 2016 at 9:56 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It was fairly common knowledge that there was a great
>> deal of animosity and tension between Marsh and
>> Steed regarding leadership and egos and more, when
>> Marsh was on ‘light duty’ due to his mountain biking
>> accident.
“fairly common knowledge”… to WHO?
NAMES, please.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> One WF supervisor from the Doce Fire remarked
>> ‘they just LOVED working for Steed.’
NAME, please.
You are still putting yourself out there as a ‘Tree’, RTS… and if you continue top post statements like this… I’m going to SHAKE you.
Whoops. Typo up above.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
—————————————
You are still putting yourself out there as a ‘Tree’, RTS… and if you continue to post statements like this… I’m going to SHAKE you.
—————————————
Reply to Robert the Second RTS post on
January 17, 2016 at 9:56 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It was fairly common knowledge that there
>> was a great deal of animosity and tension
>> between Marsh and Steed regarding leadership
>> and egos and more, when Marsh was on ‘light duty’
>> due to his mountain biking accident.
Here is a direct link to ADOSH’s second ( of two ) interviews with Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis, on October 10, 2013…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABB7pqfxplG5TR4LfurNJ2ka/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/City%20of%20Prescott%20Fire%20–%20GMHS/Employee%20Interviews%20by%20ADOSH/Transcripts/Chief%20Darrell%20Willis%20Interview%2010-10-13%20redacted.pdf?dl=0
Starting on line 507 ( and continuing for 3 pages ) is where ADOSH investigators were specifically asking Willis about this entire ‘bicycle injury’ that Eric Marsh suffered, and how that led to Jesse becoming the ‘temporary Superintendent’ and ended up being the one signing the ‘certification’ document that Marsh had been refusing to sign.
The ‘questioning’ ( and Willis’ commentary on all this ) continues on through the Doce fire and Marsh’s return to duty.
At NO TIME does Darrell Willis mention any ‘animosity’ and/or ‘tension’ between Marsh and Steed due to all of this.
Quite the contrary.
Willis makes it sound like ALL of that was hunky-dory… and that Marsh and Steed were completely ‘on the same page’ about adding Tom Cooley as a temporary ‘assistant Supt’ and Jesse taking over the crew in Marsh’s absence, with the full understanding that Marsh would be ‘returning to duty’ when he was able to.
According to Willis… the one thing that NO ONE wanted to have happen would be to have to ‘bump’ the Granite Mountain crew back down to a Type 2 IA ( Initial Attack ) rating.
So if you’re going to make the kinds of ‘assertions’ like you just did… I have a right to ‘call you out’ on it and ask for more detail about WHERE you are getting that information.
Are you talking about things you seem to ‘know’ from talking directly to ‘family members’, or WFF people or other ‘fire people’ ( not Willis ) in the Prescott Fire department?
WHO?
WHERE is/was this ‘fairly common knowledge that there was a great deal of animosity and tension between Marsh and Steed” you asserting coming from?
I doubt he will answer you but he might correct or answer me.
He lives close to Yarnell Prescott and next to a couple of Forests.
He is a pickup member of R3 Type 1 and 2 teams.
He is a Fire overhead that goes on fires to fill positions on out of region teams.
He personally knows severial R3 Superintendents as well as other Prescott NF Fire people.
He goes to the Superintendents yearly meetings in R3
He also travels and gives lectures on different Fire training sessions throughout the west and occasionally back east..
Or as I have said before he has a solid in with the FS Grapevine and is well known with current employees.
So yes he gets lots of info you will never hear on hear and he will not give up names for you or even me.
The Fairly common knowledge is who he knows and where he goes and people that talk to him.
So you can take it or leave it that’s all you are going to get.
Calling people out like you did me will get you no where
as you have turned me off others will follow.
Your sounding like Elizabeth again.
Adios MF
Well… if anyone is starting to ‘sound’ like Elizabeth… it’s RTS.
Remember what that consternation ( with EN ) was mostly all about.
Posting PUBLIC ‘assertions’ and then not willing to answer any questions about it, or provide any information about where those ‘assertions’ were coming from.
I don’t really care if it was RTS or anyone else posting what just appeared.
You have to admit… that’s a pretty HUGE assertion to make… as if it is some kind of ‘known fact’ ( As in… ‘fairly common knowledge’… and then not ‘qualify’ WHO it is that ‘seems’ to possess that asserted ‘common knowledge’.
And to also ‘assert’ there was not just a ‘little’ of this alleged ‘animosity and tension’… but a (quote) “GREAT DEAL” of it… as follows…
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It was fairly common knowledge that
>> there was a great deal of animosity
>> and tension between Marsh and Steed
>> regarding leadership and egos and more,
>> when Marsh was on ‘light duty’
>> due to his mountain biking accident.
So regardless if that statement comes from this mysterious RTS guy or not… I didn’t want that to just ‘fly by’ and have people think it’s a FACT… without at least asking the poster to elaborate.
All that being said… it would not actually SURPRISE me to learn that was SOME kind of ‘tension’ between Marsh and Steed in the ‘job description’ category…
…but if someone is asking me to accept that it is ‘common knowldege’ there WAS… and that there was actually a “GREAT DEAL” of it… and also seem to be asserting it might have been a PRIMARY causal factor in the deaths of 19 men…
…I’d like to hear a little more about where that information is coming from.
I’m just funny that way, I guess.
WTKTT,
Then don’t accept it.
Comparing me to the Black Widow Spider Elizabeth sure was low.
Baiting and guilt trips don’t work with me
Reply to Robert the Second post on
January 18, 2016 at 7:39 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Then don’t accept it.
Okay. I don’t ( accept it as anything resembling a truthful statement ).
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Comparing me to the Black Widow Spider >> Elizabeth sure was low.
I was comparing the SITUATION ( regarding this recent assertion of yours ) to previous ( similar ) situations.
And YES… just like what EN used to do.
It involves making some huge ASSERTION and then not being willing to talk more about it and give us more to go on so that we even have a CHANCE of believing what you are saying.
WHO are these people you are asserting have this ‘common knowledge’ of a GREAT DEAL ( and not just a little ) of ‘animosity and tension’ between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed?
And where were THEY getting THEIR information? From Willis? Hearing ‘arguments’ between Marsh and Steed first-hand?
WHAT?
WTKTT,
Such hypocrisy. You allow yourself to make all kinds of assertions in this and previous chapters, that something ‘LIKELY’ occurred, and someone ‘LIKELY’ did or said something, or whatever, yet not allow me to maintain confidentiality.
You “have a CHANCE of believing” what I am saying. You choose not to believe that. Suit yourself.
Neither you nor anyone else will know “WHO are these people” that have this ‘common knowledge’ of a GREAT DEAL ( and not just a little ) of ‘animosity and tension’ between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.”
I’m done.
WTKTT,
Names?
NO NAMES because I keep my word.
You posted: “I have a right to ‘call you out’ on it and ask for more detail about WHERE you are getting that information.”
Yes, you do and I have a right to not give you the answer(s) you are expecting.
You also posted: “Are you talking about things you seem to ‘know’ from talking directly to ‘family members’, or WFF people or other ‘fire people’ ( not Willis ) in the Prescott Fire department?”
My reply is both yes and no.
As far as Willis’ ADOSH interview and him not mentioning any tension and animosity between Marsh and Steed – so what.
In the July 2013 YH Fire News Conference, Willis was doing all he could to defend the indefensible, when he went on his verbal and logical gymnastics voyage, making the statements he made, oft times irrational, regarding the GMHS’ actions and inactions on 30 June 2013.
He did do a lot to reveal the PFD ‘attitude’ regarding risk taking and structure protection and WFF safety and so much more in the areas of human factors.. Those helped me to better understand WHY the GMHS did some of the things they did, leading up to and occurring on 30 June 2013.
These men were Willis’ ‘sons’ as far as he was concerned, and they could do, and did, no wrong in his eyes. I kinda get that in a very marginal way but not really.
So, I see him doing the same thing and following the same pattern in the ADOSH interview regarding the tension and animosity that existed between Marsh and Steed.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> You also posted: “Are you talking about
>> things you seem to ‘know’ from talking
>> directly to ‘family members’, or WFF
>> people or other ‘fire people’ ( not Willis ) in
>> the Prescott Fire department?”
>>
>> My reply is both yes and no.
Thanks for ( yet another ) non-answer answer.
The statement in question was…
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It was fairly common knowledge that there
>> was a great deal of animosity and tension
>> between Marsh and Steed regarding
>> leadership and egos and more, when
>> Marsh was on ‘light duty’
>> due to his mountain biking accident.
You said there was a (quote) GREAT DEAL of it.
You said it was “fairly common knowledge”.( but you still won’t clarify who seems to ‘possess’ this ‘common knowledge’ ).
You are also asserting ( up above ) that this “GREAT DEAL” ( not just a little ) of “animosity and tension” *might* have actually been a PRIMARY causal factor in the deaths of 19 men.
That’s a pretty HUGE assertion.
If there is ANYTHING else you can say about it that might bring this anywhere nearer the ‘believable’ category… here’s your chance.
WTKTT,
You posted: “If there is ANYTHING else you can say about it that might bring this anywhere nearer the ‘believable’ category… here’s your chance.”
Oh, thank you so much for allowing me my opportunity, however, I choose to pass on my ‘chance.’
Baiting, implied threats, and guilt trips don’t work with me.
Gary has good logic here. God had plans for 250 thousand after that Sunami along the Indonesian coast? Did he want to mess up the air water and environment after the Japanese nuclear reactors went down? I guess the Japanese God had plans for those dead ones. Logic says God had nothing to do with this. I think more likely the bad aliens were working on those men that day. They let me go since they had other plans for me–they knew that i was in line for a number of heart attacks anyway.
When you come down to it we wonder how a dumb cowpoke, miner, logger saw the danger they did not see, or maybe they had never before bushwhacked the intense manzanita else the fire gods could not have tempted them down there. The only logical reason phone records were hidden, black out communications declared, and evidence smeared over from day one was that someone else is involved in the deaths of those men. Nothing else makes sense here.
Add to that the excessive back slapping of how well they did the job at Yarnell so news papers put out the bunk and we see what the system that did bad makes itself look good. Tell a lie long enough and well enough they even begin to believe it themselves. The public at large wants to be optimistic and so if you feed them an optimistic God type line then they go for it. But if they get the facts and see how all these deaths were unessary and caused by a carless fire fighting effort and people willing to risk lives just to save houses and equipment, then they begin to cry out for answers.
The FBI doesn’t seem to mind here, or if they do they are keeping quiet just like most of the fire fighters and people who do know the real situation. What about the millions of tax money squandered here when a few hundred would have and should have taken care of the danger from day one. All those millions gained by the enterprises involved in fighting the fire can never take place of the lives lost of 19 young wild land fire fighting men and the loss of many elderly (70+ and counting) since the fire, now only a couple years distant.
Still I believe there are some good souls beyond the few who comtribute to this site who are not willing to accept this investigation through until it is completed and true. There is too much hidden, too many mouths quiet, and too much fear of the truth. And it is for sure many can not handle the truth.
Now I don’t know how Gary leaves Steed out of the Picture? He was the bad ass marine that parachuted in and fought off three bears with his chain saw at night. He was said to be the Greek God of firefighting to the men according to some of the writers. In my estimation and from what Joy has discovered, it looks like he was being groomed to be next in line to Willis instead of Marsh. He certainly had the strength and pizazz to tell Marsh to go to hell.
But then if you want to start properly, you would go back to day one and begin finding out who in the Yarnell and Congress fire departments were too afraid to tackle the fire or whatever else their excuses were to not go put it out on Friday evening. Especially the local Yarnell fire department–I see them every bit as responsible as Marsh and Steed here. If you allow a fire to grow knowing the possible circumstances and you have knowledge as the local fire department did then you had every obligation to treat that fire as an emergency and immediately take action to contain it. They did not, And now if you saw your neighbors house afire and did not take action to awaken them and get them out then you also are a culprit. The same goes for people that see an accident on the highway and instead of rendering aid drive on by and by their refusal to give aid, people die.
God did not have anything to do with killing 19. If he did he would have killed me too.
Joy said it was because I was a tramp miner. When a couple tramp miners were killed after a mine cave in and their spirts went up to the Pearly Gate, St. Peter said we can’t let you fellows in here to heaven. But God was overhearing and told St. Peter–“Let them in. They won’t stay but two or three days anyway.”
That might be cause there ain’t any bars there and they generally don’t like harp music that much.
I think Sonny summed up my God best with his example. My God does not come up with a plan to take an unknown number of souls all home to heaven in one fell swoop by generating a the massive 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake off the coast of Sumatra and the subsequent massive tsunami that devastated most of Indonesia just because he has a plan for that many Indonesian all at once in heaven.
He or She or It just does not do that. Random things like tectonic plates sometimes just shift because that is what they do.and my God neither stopped it from happening nor caused it to happen.
Sometimes bad things just happen to good people and God is not directly involved one way or the other.
God created the universe and everything in it, including the world we live in. He is in control of all of it.
He allows things like tectonic plates to shift and earthquakes and tsunamis to occur. God has the power to stop them from happening, yet sometimes He causes them and/or allows them to happen. He is Almighty God and I accept that is the way it is. I fear and love God, I do NOT fear man.
Sometimes bad things just happen to good people and God IS directly involved. You can believe what you want, however, it is what it is.
Pearl Moore’s ashes had been with the Smith family for a long while but they thought it would be suiting for her to be at the LOOKOUT point going down the Weaver Mountains on highway 89 so every time you drive down Yarnell hill please think of Pearl Moore and how before the fire the only thing she did was taking vitamins and just began the meds for dementia—the lack of initial attack on that fire when it could of been put out and that HEAVY SMOKE and lack of evacuation notice and that retardant drop enhanced her good health to poor and died of lung cancer— please never forget the casualties beyond the 19…
plus Dan Sullivan please visit Brian Smith—you too Gary Cordes and explain the fire to them and your position of who you saved that day
Sonny reached Dan Sullivan—I will let him tell you about that.
“Sonny reached Dan Sullivan—I will let him tell you about that.”
I’m very glad about this. And I really hope he feels free to speak.
And it would be really helpful to know whose Incident Management Team he was a part of in 2913. That shouldn’t be too threatening for him to say.
Even more helpful would be, what, exactly was he doing on the fire. I’d really like to know more about the coordination between the ground forces and the aerial resources on the fire, all things considered.
Namaste, And if you need any financial backing for your legal coverage, please don’t be hesitant to ask for it. I really pledge to have your back.
Oops typo.
Of course 2913 should be 2013.
Dan Sullivan apparantly is not the Dan Sullivan of the fire. He uses that name on his survival web site because he says he has a Romanian name that is hard to pronounce. I thought he was Irish, but he replied no sorry. Well he picked a good Irish name and maybe he liked the song “Danny Boy”.
His site if you go there is very interesting. You can learn a lot on survival–maybe Obama should go there. He wants to prepare you for the worst possible conditions because he escaped those from the Russian situation and had to live through hard times and knows what martial law really can mean. Every dictatorship begins by confication of weapons. All the way from Hitler to communist Pol Pot and now England and America in the bud, when it wants to control the population disarms the people.
FBI, CIA men will tell you not if but when the terrorists do set off a nuclear device in some major city or cities, this country will go into mayhem and the few that are prepared will indeed increase their chances of survival. Do we forget that in the LA mayhem after Rodney King that the only store owners and people that were able to protect their lives and property were those armed? Here we go again and there are some fools that will say well God will protect me. That was what Jim Jones said to 900 and what he did was kill over 900. That 2nd Amendment was put in there to make sure a government did not become a despotic entity. To add to it we are now in a time of history like never before with people from other lands and religions willing to blow up the whole of a city with themselves thinking they will have rewards of virgins–I dont know what the women get maybe young men virgins– just to please a bunch of whacko religionist emams or whatever they ascribe to themselves. I would equal them to Jim Jones in towel head gear and with beards.
This is about fire fighting and it seems to me even the common citizen would do well to learn about it. He likely will need the knowledge.
Reply to Sonny post on January 16, 2016 at 11:05 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Dan Sullivan apparantly is not the Dan Sullivan of the fire.
>> He uses that name on his survival web site because he says
>> he has a Romanian name that is hard to pronounce.
Thank you, Sonny. YES… that’s correct.
This “Survival Sullivan” guy who runs that “Survival” website is most certainly NOT the ‘Dan Sullivan’ from the Prescott National Forest Fire/Aviation Center who was hired as an ASGS for the Yarnell Fire on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013.
The ‘actual’ Yarnell Hill ‘Dan Sullivan’ was ( apparently ) never interviewed by ANY set of investigators… and we don’t even have a ‘Unit Log’ from this guy, even though we KNOW he was there ( working ) at the Yarnell Hill Fire that Sunday.
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 15, 2016 at 4:57 am
>> Marti Reed said…
>>
>> Given what I’ve seen in these aerial photos, it has always disturbed me that
>> they didn’t start that line above Glen Illah. I don’t know why that was the case.
>> I really don’t and it bothers me.
>>
>> On January 15, 2016 at 8:13 am, WTKTT replied…
>>
>> Thomas French himself would later say ( over the Air-To-Air channel ) that that
>> is what he WANTED to do… but he and John Burfiend wasted too much time
>> ‘finishing up’ what they were doing on the NORTH end before (eventually) turning
>> their attention to the SOUTH part of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Here is the ‘followup’ to that statement above, and the exact Air-To-Air radio channel capture where B33 Thomas French was admitting that the line of retardant extending from Shrine Road north was NOT what he ‘wanted to do’ that day… but because he was so late getting to the SOUTH end of the Yarnell Fire… and the column had already begun ‘laying over’ by the time he got down there… he was forced to stay ‘to the north’.
Here he is finally asking DC10 VLAT 910 to ‘come on in’ to the Yarnell Town area from where he had him in a holding pattern SOUTH of Yarnell…
NOTE: At this point in this Panebaker Video… we do NOT hear what VLAT 910 pilot ‘Kevin’ is saying to French on the Air-To-Air channel. All we hear at this point is what Thomas French is saying TO ‘Kevin’…
——————————————————————–
** Panebaker Air-To-Air Radio Channel Capture
** VIDEO 20160630_1643 STARTS AT 1630.50 ( 4:30.50 PM ) ( EXIF timestamp ).
+05:46 ( 1636.36 / 4:36.36 PM )
(B33 – French): Tanker nine one zero… you are cleared in… come on in at… six thousand five hundred with nine eight zero.
+05:56 ( 1636.46 / 4:36.46 PM )
(B33 – French): And I’ve got a project for you.
+06:01 ( 1636.51 / 4:36.51 PM )
(B33 – French): It’s all good, though.
+06:05 ( 1636.55 / 4:36.55 PM )
(B33 – French): That’s affirmative… uh… on the east side… uh… can’t really get in where we really need it we’ll be a little bit further to the north.
———————————————————————-
Thomas French tells VLAT 910 pilot ‘Kevin’…
“…can’t really get in where we really NEED it.”
“…we’ll be a little bit further to the NORTH”.
It was simply too UNSAFE to try and do any retardant drops to protect Yarnell proper, or Glen Ilah, at that point.
The column had already begun to ‘lay over’ by the time French even got down there.
So all they could do was start working on that retardant line to the northwest of Yarnell proper… which is the one clearly seen in the ‘aftermath’ aerial photos.
But that’s not all ( from French ).
Just a little while later… he would tell the inbound relief Air Attack, Rusty Warbis, that the line of retardant there to the north of Yarnell isn’t even what he WANTED to do. He ( French ) WANTED to be “further to the south”.
In the next Air-To-Air radio channel capture…
Bravo 3 ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) have returned to the Yarnell Airspace and are about to take over for French and Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’.
Warbis is now asking French if he wants him to just keep extending that line of retardant which now stretches from just north of the Shrine Road, north and out into the foothills just to the northwest of Yarnell ( as seen in the aftermath aerial photos ).
This is where French LAUGHS and says that isn’t even the ‘line’ he wanted in the first place ( but since he was so late getting to the SOUTH part of the Fire that was all he could safely do by the time he DID get down there ).
———————————————————————-
** Panebaker Air-To-Air Radio Channel Capture
** VIDEO 20130630_1716_EP STARTS AT 1645.19 ( 4:45.19 PM ) ( EXIF timestamp ).
+20:56 ( 1706.15 / 5:06.15 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Bravo Three, Bravo Three Thr… Uh… Bravo Three Three, Bravo Three.
+20:59 ( 1706.18 / 5:06.18 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead, Rusty.
+21:00 ( 1706.19 / 5:06.19 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Ya want me to just look at extendin’ that?
+21:05 ( 1706.24 / 5:06.24 PM )
(B33 – French): Hey Rusty… you (faded) out. Say again?
+21:07 ( 1706.26 / 5:06.26 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Are you lookin’ at just extendin’ that line.
+21:10 ( 1706.29 / 5:06.29 PM )
(B33 – French): Well… ( he laughs)… that’s… that’s not even the line I wanted.
I wanted to be further to the south.
———————————————————————-
Thomas French (LAUGHS) and then tells Rusty Warbis…
“…that’s not even the line I WANTED”.
“…I WANTED to be further to the south”.
By the way…
I was WRONG in my previous post about it taking 30 minutes from the time Thomas French told departing Air Attack Rory Collins ( at exactly 3:50 PM ) that he was “heading down there” ( to Yarnell ) before he ever actually bothered to do that.
It was MORE than that.
It was 40 ( FORTY ) minutes.
See next post.
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 15, 2016 at 4:57 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Given what I’ve seen in these aerial photos, it has always disturbed me that
>> they didn’t start that line above Glen Illah. I don’t know why that was the case.
>> I really don’t and it bothers me.
>>
>> On January 15, 2016 at 6:20 am calvin replied…
>>
>> Thanks marti. I agree. I agree, and per Eric Pane bakers notes, the drops to
>> protect yarnell were suppose to begin around 1550.
You are right, calvin.
3:50 PM ( plus 37 seconds ) is the exact moment when Rory Collins got on the Air-To-Air radio channel and TOLD Thomas French, in Bravo 33, all of the following…
1. There was a (quote) ‘heck of wind shift’ going on.
2. There was now a LOT of fire headed straight for Yarnell ( and Glen Ilah ).
3. They ( French and Burfiend in Bravo 33 ) NEEDED to ‘swing around and take a look at that’.
And Thomas French IMMEDIATELY replied to Air Attack Rory Collins with…
(quote) “Copy… we’re headed that way”.
Rory Collins then LEFT the Yarnell Air Space because his pilot was ‘timing out’, under the impression that French and Burfiend were ‘on their way’ down to the SOUTH end of the Yarnell Hill Fire to take care of this fast-developing situation down there.
They did no such thing.
Thomas French remained pre-occupied with just ‘tidying up’ that line of retardant he’d been working on that afternoon up on the NORTH end of the Yarnell Hill Fire in the Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road area(s)… even though the wind had ALREADY shifted to the SOUTH and the threat to those areas had pretty much now abated.
He used the next TWO available SEATS and the newly-inbound VLAT 911 to just ‘finish off’ that retardant line on the NORTH end of the fire before he even gave any thought to heading down towards the SOUTH end of the Yarnell Hill Fire, as he had told Rory Collins at 3:50 PM he WOULD do.
Between 3:50 PM and 4:20 PM… he just ’emptied’ both those available SEATS and the ‘full load’ of DC10 VLAT 911 on that ‘project’ up there on the NORTH end of the fire.
It wasn’t until 4:25 PM ( 35 minutes after told Collins he would head to the SOUTH end ) that he decided he was ‘satisfied’ with his NORTH end retardant line ‘project’, and that’s when he told the ONLY Tanker now left over the fire with any retardant ( SEAT 413 ) to start heading down to the SOUTH end ( and the EAST side ) and he would ‘meet him there’.
——————————————————————————————
+37:10 ( 1625:08 / 4:25:08 )
(B33 – French): Tanker 413 Bravo 33… uh… plans have changed.
I’ll meet you on the… uh.. east side of the fire… kind of the southeast
side… and… but you can maintain… uh… fifty-five, okay?
——————————————————————————————-
It would then take Thomas French just short of another THREE minutes to even get DOWN there to the SOUTH end of the Yarnell Hill Fire, and even BEGIN to start ‘checking out the situation’ down there.
The smoke column was ALREADY ‘laying down’ at this time.
Only at 4:27:48 PM ( 37 minutes since he told Collins he would head SOUTH ) does Thomas French even BEGIN to start ‘checking out’ the situation there on the south end… and he tells Tanker 413 to ‘standby’ while he even begins to figure out what is possible at that point…
He TELLS Tanker 413 ( at 4:27:48 PM ) “This is my FIRST TIME HERE”…
——————————————————————————————–
+39:50 ( 1627:48 / 4:27:48 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… 413… stay there. ( Garbled transmission ).
We’re… uh… probly gonna be puttin’ somethin’ in in front of
these structures here but… uh… this is my first time here let
me go check it out.
——————————————————————————————–
Incredibly… it then took Thomas French another FIVE MINUTES ( 4 minutes and 50 seconds ) of just ‘flying around’ to even figure out what was now possible to do, safely, there on the SOUTH end of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
He was now TOO LATE to do anything meaningful to protect either Yarnell proper, or any part of the Glen Ilah subdivision.
He had WASTED TOO MUCH TIME up on the NORTH end of the fire, and the smoke column was now already ‘laying down’ on the SOUTH end.
At 4:32:38 French finally gets back to Tanker 413 and tells him what he wants him to do… which is begin the only ‘project’ that was even feasible and/or safe now since he had watied so long… and start dropping retardant on the NORTH end of Yarnell, in the foothills ( the spot that would then show up in the aftermath aerial photos )…
——————————————————————————————–
** Panebaker Air-To-Air Radio Channel Capture
** VIDEO 20160630_1643 STARTS AT 1630.50 ( 4:30.50 PM ) ( EXIF timestamp ).
+01:48 ( 1632.38 / 4:32.38 PM )
(B33 – French): Hey… uh.. four one three… if ya got me in sight… what I’d like to do is pretty much anywhere in here where it’s heavy open flame is in the fuel… right through here…have ya got that?
+01:57 ( 1632.47 / 4:32.47 PM )
(Tanker 413): Yea… is it like starting up the… ah… the ridgetop or anything?
+02:01 ( 1632.51 / 4:32.51 PM )
(B33 – French): Affirmative.
+02:03 ( 1632.53 / 4:32.53 PM )
(Tanker 413): Okay… do what I can
————————————————————————————————-
Thomas French then lined up a ‘drop’ for Tanker 413 there in the foothills to the NORTH of Yarnell proper… and gave Tanker 413 permission to drop…
——————————————————————–
** Panebaker Air-To-Air Radio Channel Capture
** VIDEO 20160630_1643 STARTS AT 1630.50 ( 4:30.50 PM ) ( EXIF timestamp ).
+02:03 ( 1632.53 / 4:32.53 PM )
(Tanker 413): Okay… do what I can
+02:05 ( 1632.55 / 4:32.55 PM )
(B33 – French): Then give me a gentle right turn on the exit
+02:07 ( 1632.57 / 4:32.57 PM )
(Tanker 413): You got it.
+02:24 ( 1633.14 / 4:33.14 PM )
(Tanker 413): Off the drop.
+02:27 ( 1633.17 / 4:33.17 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay follow me around in the right hand and
then… ah… load and return, okay?
+02:31 ( 1633.21 / 4:33.21 PM )
(Tanker 413): Roger that. Load and return.
+02:34 ( 1633.24 / 4:33.24 PM )
(B33 – French): Yea… we liked your drop… I know there was a lotta fire in there… but… ah… (laughter) nicely done
+02:39 ( 1633.29 / 4:33.29 PM )
(Tanker 413): Yea (laughter)… it’s… it’s like spittin’ at it.
——————————————————————–
So Tanker 413 finally did its FIRST drop at exactly 4:33:14 there on the SOUTH side of the Yarnell Hill Fire, used its whole load, and French told him to ‘load and return’.
The TIMESPAN looks like this…
3:50:37 – Thomas French told Rory Collins he was “heading that way” to the SOUTH end of the Yarnell Hill Fire, in reaction to being told there was (quote from Rory Collins ), “A LOT of fire headed towards Yarnell. You NEED to swing around and take a look at it”.
4:33:14 – The first retardant drop anywhere near the town of Yarnell.
That’s a TIMESPAN of 42 minutes and 37 seconds between when Thomas French TOLD Air Attack Rory Collins he would head to the SOUTH side of the fire… and when he finally did that and was able to line up a ‘drop’ anywhere near Yarnell.
Thanks WTKTT.
This is why I think we need both an interview with Dan Sullivan and the Air To Ground Channel recording that I’m 99.999999999% certain exists via the Air Study crew.
You have all along been sounding like you’re assuming that Tom French was “running this show”, disconnected from ground operations. I have NEVER thought that. I have ALWAYS believed the retardant drops were being being coordinated with someone on the ground. That’s the way it happens, for the most part.
Which is why when you linked Sullivan with the “that’s where we want it” “communique,” I thought BINGO.
I want to know how much Brad Sullivan was involved in those decisions to keep the aerial resources focused on the north side of the fire, finishing those ops, while the fire was turning toward the south. I just don’t believe it was purely Tom French. He was just the Lead Plane pilot, not some kind of strategist.
The strategist would have been, imho, Dan Sullivan. Well, Dan Sullivan in conversations with John Burfiend over Air 2 Ground, thus the need for that channel recording to accurately determine who was making what decisions.Those decisions would have been the purview of Dan Sullivan and John Burfiend, imno, and not Tom French.
Namaste.
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 16, 2016 at 6:14 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> This is why I think we need both an interview with Dan Sullivan
>> and the Air To Ground Channel recording that I’m
>> 99.999999999% certain exists via the Air Study crew.
Agree. It’s still fairly inconceivable to believe that ‘Aerial Retartdant Study’, with the amount of MONEY that was obviously being invested in it ( by taxpayers ) would have been making sure they had a recording of all the Air-To-Air radio traffic… and WOULD not have been making a similar recording of the all-important Air-To-Ground channel.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> You have all along been sounding like you’re assuming
>> that Tom French was “running this show”, disconnected
>> from ground operations.
Not ‘disconnected’ from ground operations, no… but “doing his own thing up there most of the time”… yes… that is what the EVIDENCE seems to be saying.
There IS ‘some’ evidence of him making ‘some’ decisions based on input from the ground… but not much.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I have NEVER thought that. I have ALWAYS believed the
>> retardant drops were being being coordinated with
>> someone on the ground. That’s the way it happens, for the
>> most part.
SOME of them ( retardant drops ) WERE being ‘coordinated with someone on the ground’, yes.
But if you listen to the totality of the Air-to-Air radio traffic… MOST of them were NOT.
It was more like just getting a ‘general idea’ about what to be focusing on from the ‘ground’… but the ACTUAL locations for the drops seemed to be totally up to the fellas in the planes. That includes ALL of the ‘Air Attacks’ and ‘Lead Planes’ that worked Yarnell that day… and not just ‘Bravo 33’ after Rory Collins left the fire at 3:58 PM.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Which is why when you linked Sullivan with the “that’s where
>> we want it” “communique,” I thought BINGO.
I would also now EASILY believe that is who we hear John Burfiend ‘finishing’ that conversation with at the start of the original Aaron Hulburd ‘Helmet Cam’ video… just 13 seconds before Jesse Steed’s first pseudo-MAYDAY call.
Burfiend seemed to be specifically responding to someone who had just been specifically requesting what they wanted Air Support to ‘focus on’ there on the south end of the fire. Sounds EXACTLY like something an Air Support Group Supervisor would have been ‘requesting’.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I want to know how much Brad Sullivan was involved in those
>> decisions to keep the aerial resources focused on the north
>> side of the fire, finishing those ops, while the fire was turning
>> toward the south. I just don’t believe it was purely Tom French.
>> He was just the Lead Plane pilot, not some kind of strategist.
I’m with you on this, Marti. I really am.
I would like to BELIEVE that the Air Support that day wasn’t just a bunch of guys in airplanes doing whatever the fuck they felt like doing.
But the EVIDENCE is ( so far ) NOT THERE that there really was any kind of overall ‘contact point’ ( like and ASGS ) there on the ground overseeing the Air Operations that day.
The EVIDENCE still points to the opposite.
Example: There is NO EVIDENCE that, once Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark took over ‘Lead Plane and Air Attack’ at noon… that other than the first few drops which they coordinated with Darrell Willis to try and protect the Double-Bar-A Ranch… that they were then under ANYONE’S ‘direction’.
Warbis and Lenmark decided to waste THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars and time and effort laying that retardant line all across that middle bowl on their OWN… and they SAID SO in their interview.
After making a few drops to try and help Darrell Willis… Warbis and Lenmark said they ‘took their first full turn around the fire’ and assessed the situation completely on their own.
They reported NO OTHER CONTACT with anyone on the ground that day other than that brief interaction with Willis… and then that conversation with DIVSZ Rance Marquez.
OPS1 Todd Abel was even ‘up in the air’ with them on a RECON mission in a helicopter while they were making their own ‘turn around the fire’ recon… and they specifically told ADOSH they did NOT have one single conversation with OPS1 Abel about what they might be supposed to do.
They came up with their OWN plan… by THEMSELVES… and then proceeded to go about doing it without any ‘permission’ or ‘input’ from ANYONE.
They also almost managed to crash a helicopter into a VLAT while they were doing it… because no one was adequately coordinating the helicopter work, either.
So yea… I would LOVE to start seeing some ‘evidence’ that it was just a “do whatever you want” show up in the Air that Sunday… but MOST of the EVIDENCE we DO have indicates that WAS the case.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> The strategist would have been, imho, Dan Sullivan.
>> Well, Dan Sullivan in conversations with John Burfiend
>> over Air 2 Ground, thus the need for that channel recording
>> to accurately determine who was making what decisions.
We actually DO have a fair amount of recorded ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio traffic from the ‘backgrounds’ of those other Panebaker videos ( and the other Aaron Hulburd videos )… and at NO time do we ever really seem to hear any Air-To-Ground radio traffic along the lines of what you are imagining.
We DO hear OPS1 Todd Able talking over ‘Air-To-Ground’ about the situation in the Miner’s Camp Road area ( where he was physically monitoring things there on the ground )… and we obviously DO hear Burfiend finishing a some kind of ‘strategy’ conversation with someone on the ground just 13 seconds before Steeds first pseudo-MAYDAY…
…but other than that… there really isn’t ANYTHING like some central ground/air support person talking up to the aircraft.
Of course we don’t have the WHOLE A2G like we have the whole A2A… but even with all of the A2G traffic we do have you would think we would be hearing at least SOME of what you are imagining… if it really was ever happening that day.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Those decisions would have been the purview of Dan Sullivan
>> and John Burfiend, imno, and not Tom French.
Listen to the Air-To-Air channel recordings again.
Yes… Burfiend was sitting right next to French and was obviously relaying things to him coming up over the A2G channel… but this Thomas French guy was his ‘own man’ and it doesn’t sound ( for the most part ) that he felt like he needed ANY input from ANYONE.
He was up there ‘doing jis job’ and there’s enough A2A traffic capture to hear him making MOST of the decisions about what was going to happen next on his own.
If there WAS anyone on the ground there who was even remotely supposed to be controlling the ‘air show’… then I have no explanation for why Thomas French would be TOLD by the departing Air Attack ( at 3:50 PM ) that the winds had shifted and the most DANGER was no on the SOUTH side of the fire… and Thomas French still just felt free to spend the next FORTY MINUTES just ‘tidying up’ his pretty little retardant line on the NORTH side.
It doesn’t make any sense… considering that ‘pre-occupation’ with a retardant line that wasn’t even all that necessary anymore ( because of the major wind shift ) would then end up PREVENTING him from doing anything useful FORTY MINUTES LATER when he finally got down to where it was now all hitting the fan.
If there was ANY kind of ASGS there that day, doing his/her job… don’t you think that sometime during those FORTY minutes… when OPS1 Abel had already promised Marsh “We’ll get Air Support down there ASAP” ( at 3:50 PM ) and French had ALREADY told Air Attack he was “heading that way” ( again, at exactly 3:50 PM )…
…that sometime in those FORTY MINUTES when he kept not showing up and not showing up and not showing up on the SOUTH side… that someone wouldn’t have jumped on the horn and asked…
“Hey… Air Attack… where the FUCK ARE YOU!”
“We need you DOWN HERE. Like NOW.”
I think the lack of any kind of communication along those lines is a good indicator that there just really WASN’T anyone on the ground who was “in charge” of the fly boys that day.
Whoops. Typo up above.
I typed “was” where I should have typed “wasn’t”
Paragraph above should have read like this…
—————————————————————
So yea… I would LOVE to start seeing some ‘evidence’ that it WASN’T just a “do whatever you want” show up in the Air that Sunday… but MOST of the EVIDENCE we DO have indicates that WAS the case.
—————————————————————-
And… followup to above…
I guess what I was trying to say up above is that from a pure EVIDENCE standpoint… there is really nothing to indicate that there was anything even resembling an ‘ASGS’ or ‘AOBD’ presence in Yarnell that Sunday.
The EVIDENCE record (currently) tends to show that there WAS no one person ( or persons ) ‘organizing’ the overhead Air Support that day.
On the contrary… the EVIDENCE just shows multiple instances of the current ‘Air Attack’ just seeming to do whatever the hell he wanted to do, from the morning onward.
AA Rory Collins even WAS ‘in touch’ with DIVSA Marsh and Collins still just did what HE wanted to do, and not even what a ‘Division Supervisor’ was telling him HE wanted to do.
Collins dumped retardant all over Marsh’s indirect burnouts just because Collins didn’t like his ‘indirect’ approach and Collins FORCED him to do what HE wanted… go direct.
Shortly after that… Collins has to leave to refuel and he ‘tags out’ with incoming Air Attack / Lead Plane ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ).
Warbis and Lenmark then make the first VLAT drops of the day in support of Darrell Willis at the Double-Bar-A Ranch… but that was supposedly arranged via direct como between them and Willis himself ( no intermediary at all ).
After that… Warbis and Lenmark truly just “did what they wanted'”, and SAID SO in their ADOSH interview.
They spent thousands and thousands of dollars and much time and effort throwing that massive retardant line into the middle of unburned fuel without even ASKING anyone if that’s what they should be doing and how they should be spending all those taxpayer dollars that day. Even THEY acknowldeged it wasn’t the ‘best of ideas’ but snce they concluded that Granite Mountains was ‘out of the game’ and just ‘staging’ out to the west… and they saw the other Hotshot crew ( Blue Ridge ) just sitting around their carriers doing absolutely nothing at all… THEY decided it was at least something worth doing because ( in their own words ) “SOMEONE had to start doing SOMETHING to protect Yarnell… because the fire was going to go in there THAT day… THAT burn cycle”.
Then Collins returned and ‘Bravo 33’ showed up and Collins was ‘back in charge’ with Thomas French just doing ‘Lead Plane’.
When Collins left at 3:58 PM… ‘Bravo 33’ then became BOTH ‘Air Attack and Lead Plane’ again.
But nowhere in even that transition back to Collins after Warbis and Lenmark… or then the ‘pass off’ from Collins to French and Burfiend… is there ANY evidence that any DIRECTION was coming from some central ASGS or AOBD ‘coordinator’ on the ground… even though they were SUPPOSED to be there working that day.
Robert Ortlund was ‘ordered up’ as AOBD ( Air Operations Branch Director ) at 10:49 PM the night before, on Saturday, June 29, 2013.
Brad Zettler was ‘ordered up’ as ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ) at the same exact time ( 10:49 PM ) the night before.
Brad Zettler’s resource order was ‘fulfilled’ in the very same minute, at 10:49.
Ortlund’s resource order took a different route.
The ‘Fulfillment records’ show Dispatch trying to contact Ortlund with two different phone calls after the order was posted.
One call at 11:18 PM Saturday night, just 29 minutes after his AOBD order was posted. Then another one the next MORNING at 7:09 AM.
Robert Ortlund’s AOBD order was not actually ‘fulfilled’ until 9:11 AM on Sunday morning.
But then, just 23 minutes later, at 9:34 AM Sunday, an entire NEW order for another ASGS was issued, requesting that new ASGS to be in Yarnell just an hour and half later, at 11:00 AM. That new ASGS order got ‘fulfilled 36 minutes later, at 10:10 AM, with this ‘Dan Sullivan’ guy from the Prescott National Forest Air Center.
And Brad Zettler’s Unit Log says Sullivan did, in fact, arrive in Yarnell circa 11:30 AM.
But Brad Zettler is also the one telling us that this ‘AOBD’ Robert Ortlund guy NEVER SHOWED UP that day ( Sunday, June 30 ).
But then we have Roy Hall telling ADOSH, 2 months later, that his two ‘Air Support’ people in Yarnell that day WERE, in fact, Brad Zettler and Robert Ortlund… with NO mention of anyone named Dan Sullivan ever being there.
Like Roy Hall was just ASSUMING that Ortlund had showed up to his own fire… but never even lifted one finger to verify that and didn’t even know someone ordered ANOTHER ASGS named Dan Sullivan ( to replace the missing Ortlund? ).
So this all remains a huge mystery that needs to be solved.
Robert Ortlund and Dan Sullivan were ( apparently ) NEVER interviewed by ANYONE… and we don’t even have a ‘Unit Log’ from this ‘Dan Sullivan’ guy… even though we KNOW he was there and helping Brad Zettler.
What a mess.
WTKTT,
You posted: “… the EVIDENCE just shows multiple instances of the current ‘Air Attack’ just seeming to do whatever the hell he wanted to do, from the morning onward.
“AA Rory Collins even WAS ‘in touch’ with DIVSA Marsh and Collins still just did what HE wanted to do, and not even what a ‘Division Supervisor’ was telling him HE wanted to do.”
Rory Collins’ actions that day were fairly common and predictable, based on him working for the Douglas Forest Protective Association (DFPA) , in partnership with the Oregon Division of Forestry (ODF). He is an Assistant Unit Forester with the DFPA.
Those agencies both despise burning operations and burning out parallel and indirect lines because they are all about SAVING private and commercial landholdings for timber, by going direct, right on the fire’s edge. That is okay to have those goals, however, this can be very frustrating and dangerous, especially having to go direct against aggressive fire behavior and not burning ones’ lines out. This is Watch Out 11 – “Unburned fuel between you and the line.”
And that is why he was dropping retardant on the GMHS handline that day and frustrating Marsh. Collins was basically taking control of the operation and succeeded in wresting control of the strategy be forcing them to go direct once he doused their burnout attempts. SOP for these guys. No surprises here.
Regarding the ASGS or AOBD Resource Orders that day, I’m sure you checked ‘Block 13. User Documentation’ for WHO requested the order, however, all you’ll likely find is who processed the order under ‘Entered By.’ You’ll have to contact whomever entered the data, but they may have it somewhere on the Resource Order.
Regarding Roy Hall not knowing who he had and/or how many he had working in aviation that day and/or who/what was ordered, that is NOT surprising either. And besides, IC’s usually have a lot on their minds and something like that would maybe considered ‘mouse nuts’ with everything else going on. Filling the Resource Order would/should have been a delegated assignment though for someone in the Air Operations realm. In a Type 3 Organization, if the IC does not delegate the responsibility, then the repsonsibility falls back on him, meaning that HE is the ASGS and/or AOBD.
You posted: “Robert Ortlund and Dan Sullivan were ( apparently ) NEVER interviewed by ANYONE… and we don’t even have a ‘Unit Log’ from this ‘Dan Sullivan’ guy… even though we KNOW he was there and helping Brad Zettler.
“What a mess.”
All part of The Plan I say to avoid telling the truth. I call these ‘selective interviews’ so that ‘they’ can stay with their predetermined story line once ‘they’ have “first established a conclusion, then find the ‘facts’ to fit that predetermined conclusion. A mess indeed.
That person could have been identified in their IMT Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) or delegated by IC Hall, or talked about and then forgotten about, any number of things really.
**
** ROY HALL DIDN’T EVEN SEEM TO KNOW ASGS DAN SULLIVAN WAS
** THERE WORKING THE YARNELL HILL FIRE ON SUNDAY, JUNE 30, 2013
**
** SO WHO ACTUALLY SUBMITTED DAN SULLIVAN’S RESOURCE ORDER?
In his second ( of two ) ADOSH interviews… the ADOSH investigators specifically asked Yarnell Hill Fire IC Roy Hall WHO he had there at the fire in ‘Air Support’ overhead position(s).
From Roy Hall’s second ( of two ) ADOSH interviews… this one was on 10/15/2013…
Q4 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH / WFA Investigator ( Rest in Peace )
A = Roy Hall, Incident Commander at the Yarnell Fire on June 30, 2013
———————————————————————————-
951 Q4: Hey, Roy, I was – I was just wondering if how, ah, how is it that you integrate
952 air into your team operations?
953
954 A: Oh, we’ve got two good ones. I’m glad you asked that. We’ve got two of the
955 best, there – there are in the business, retired Federal, both of them. Bob
956 Ortlund, ah, retired district FMO and air attack and air ops branch director,
957 um, has spent a lot of time in a – in a, a, dispatching off an aircraft desk. Um,
958 he’s our air ops. The air support is a guy by the name of Brad Zettler, ah,
959 retired Federal, um, we recertified him a year ago on the wall of fire but he
960 had an extensive background in air support, helicopter management, helibase
961 management, ah, aircraft capability and limitations, and those were the two
962 guys on the fire.
—————————————————————————————-
So Roy Hall himself was only admitting to having TWO ‘Air Support’ people on the Yarnell Hill Fire ( Brad Zettler and Bob Ortlund )… and NEVER mentions anyone named ‘Dan Sullivan’.
But here again is ASGS Dan Sullivan’s official ‘Resource Order’ for the Yarnell Fire, first entered into the system at 9:30 AM PNT on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013…
From PDF page 141 of the ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document.
————————————————–
Request number: O-30
Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 0934 ( 9:34 AM ) PNT
From: AZ-ADC ( Dispatch ) 800-309-7081
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: AIR SUPPORT GROUP SUPERVISOR (ASGS)
Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 1100 ( 11:00 AM ) PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: AZ-PDC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/13 1010 ( 10:10 AM ) PNT
Resource Assigned Unit ID: AZ-PNF ( Arizona – Prescott National Forest )
Resource Assigned: Sullivan, Dan (AZ-PDC) [EFF/AD]
M/D Ind.: D
Estimated Time Of Departure: 07/01/13 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) PNT
Esitmated Time Of Arrival: 07/01/13 1650 ( 4:50 PM ) PNT
Released Date: 07/03/13 1238 ( 12:38 PM ) PNT
Released To: PHOENIX SKY HARBOR INTL (PHX)
Travel Mode: ( No entry )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688 ( Yarnell Hill Fire )
Special Needs: NAME REQUEST FOR DAN SULLIVAN, RENTAL AOV, POV
Reporting Instructions: ICP MIDDLE CREEK SCHOOL IN PEEPLES
VALLEY 18912 HAYS RANCH ROAD, PEEPLES VALLEY AZ. REPORT
TO BRAD ZETTLER ( Yarnell Fire Helibase Manager )
————————————————–
Notice that whoever placed/requested that Resource Order for Dan Sullivan added SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS for him to ‘report’ to Brad Zeitler… whom Roy Hall WAS admitting was part of his ‘Air Suppot’ overhead in Yarnell that day.
And… once again… here Helibase Manager Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log which CONFIRMS that ASGS Dan Sullivan showed up in Yarnell right around 11:30 AM ( as his own Resource Order had requested him to )…
From Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log…
—————————————————–
1115 ( 11:15 AM )
Received contact information for the manager of Maughn Ranches, Met with Ranch Manager Don Glascow and advised that we needed to create a land use agreement with the ranch for helicopter operations. Also advised that the original helibase site could not meet out needs, and asked if he had any suggestions for an alternate site. He agreed to meet me back at the Incident Command Post for further discussion.
1130 ( 11:30 AM )
Dan Sullivan, a qualified Air Support Group Supervisor from the Prescott National Forest arrived and offered to assist.
1150 ( 11:50 PM )
Dan Sullivan and myself met with Don Glascow at the Incident Command Post and discussed an alternative helibase location. Don offered a private airstrip owned by the ranch. Dan said that he would check out the airstrip to see if it could safely meet our needs.
————————————————————–
Dan Sullivan was never mentioned again in Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log… nor does his name EVER appear in anyone else’s Unit Log ( or ADOSH testimony ).
So if Roy Hall himself didn’t even seem to KNOW someone named Dan Sullivan ( from the Prescott National Forest ) was even THERE working his fire that day… then WHO placed Dan Sullivan’s order THAT morning and was specifically telling him to ‘report’ to Brad Zeitler?
Followup…
** BRAD ZETTLER’S ADOSH INTERVIEW
Brad Zettler was also interviewed by ADOSH, and he DOES mention Dan Sullivan in his ADOSH interview, but no other information than what was also briefly mentioned in Zettler’s Unit Log.
NOTE: ADOSH transcript says his name was ‘Brad Zettler’, but his typed Unit Log on PDF page 25 of the Logs that were released ‘late’ by the SAIT says it was ‘Brad Zeitler’.
The Southwest Area Type 1 Incident Team Roster which is here…
https://sites.google.com/site/swaimt1/team-roster
…says it’s ‘Brad Zettler’, not Zeitler.
From Brad Zettler’s ADOSH interview on August 15, 2013.
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = Brad Zettler, Helibase Manager in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013
———————————————————————————–
491 A: And so there was a person from the Prescott – another air support had come
492 down by the name of Dan Sullivan. And Dan and I were talking with…
493
494 Q1: Uh-huh.
495
496 A: …Don Glassgow, he’s the – he’s the ranch manager from the ranches.
497
498 Q1: Yeah.
499
500 A: Anyway Dan agreed to go – to go survey that site and he left to go look at that.
501 And we just kept the helicopters where they were.
502
503 Q1: Yeah. Yeah.
504
505 A: At that time and we were, you know…
506
507 Q1: Sure.
508
509 A: …trying to do it but we couldn’t…
510
511 Q1: Right.
512
513 A: …kind of had our times – hands tied.
514
515 Q1: So is that where you ended up with the?
516
517 A: No, it – it, uh – as the day progressed, we – we couldn’t – we couldn’t get an
518 answer back on, Dan didn’t like the – the airstrip.
519
520 Q1: The airstrip?
521
522 A: There was plenty of room but there was no access especially for larger
523 vehicles.
————————————————————————————
And just like in his ‘Unit Log’… after the mention of Dan Sullivan arriving and him going to ‘look’ at the Maughan Ranch airstrip as a possible Helibase… Brad Zettler never mentions this ‘Dan Sullivan’ person again in his ADOSH interview.
However… a little later in his ADOSH interview… Brad Zettler says something that directly contradicts what IC Roy Hall told them about ‘Bob Ortlund’ being there on June 30, 2013.
Roy told ADOSH Ortlund was here on June 30, 2013, along with Zettler, and that these were his two ‘Air Support’ people that Sunday.
But Brad Zettler informed ADOSH that Bob Ortlund was NOT there that Sunday, and that he didn’t show up until the NEXT day ( Monday, July 1, 2013 ).
NOTE: In the transcript below, the transcriber apparently thought they heard ‘Bob Orton’… but if you listen to the audio it seems clear that Barry Hicks said ‘Bob Ortlund’… and everybody knew who Barry was talking about, Brad Zettler included.
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = Brad Zettler, Helibase Manager in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013
————————————————————–
1145 A: …trying to find a helibase and so I – I – as soon as the briefing was over I went
1146 and got in my truck (unintelligible).
1147
1148 Q1: Was – was Bob Orton already there?
1149
1150 A: No.
1151
1152 Q1: When did he show up?
1153
1154 A: The next day.
1155
1156 Q1: The next day?
1157
1158 A: Yeah.
1159
1160 Q1: Okay. So he didn’t get there till the next day so, uh – uh, so if they had a team
1161 briefing they did it with – without aviation being in there when they – when
1162 they did that since Bob wasn’t there.
1163
1164 A: Right. I – I don’t know if they had a briefing or not.
1165
1166 Q1: Okay.
————————————————————–
So regardless of how confused IC Roy Hall seemed to be about who was even working his fire… I wonder if Dan Sullivan’s ‘call up’ on Sunday morning was because Bob Ortlund could NOT make it there that day?
And someone ‘replaced’ Ortlund with Sullivan ( for that Sunday )… without IC Roy Hall even knowing about it?
That’s what Roy Hall’s ADOSH testimony would seem to have us believe.
Thanks WTKTT.
What you wrote downstream:
“So Dan Sullivan was NOT part of that original Type 2 SHORT Team order placed the night before.
He WAS part of Roy Hall’s frantic scramble to ‘ramp up’ on Sunday morning itself.
So I still am wondering if that ended up putting HIM in ‘limbo land’ by the time he showed up… just like what happened with his fellow PNF employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell?””
Interesting.
Since I STILL haven’t schlepped all my hard drives around the corner (for a variety of stupid reasons), I”m relegated to just REMEMBERING that there was a chart (pdf) published of the Incident Management Team on the fire on Sunday (that I know I have looked at and have saved on one of those five hard drives). Do you know how to find that?
I was assuming (yeah, yeah, we know about that) that, since Roy’s Team in 2014 included Dan Sullivan, it most likely did in 2013.
It’s really hard to find Incident Management Team rolls after the year they’re active. Which makes this even harder.
Heck, he could have even been a part of Tony Sciacca’s team, for all we know. But I kinda sorta doubt that, since he was on Hall’s Team the next year.
My guess is, now, that he was part of Bea Day’s team, given what you have posted.
Gary Olsen- did you leave message for me on Sonny’s cell?
If not a GARY left me a voicemail and said he would be reading InvestigativeMedia
???????????????
We figured it out Gary…
right on
calvin said JANUARY 13, 2016 AT 3:49 AM
Do you have any idea exactly how many aircraft or how many gallons of retardant were dropped on the YHF between the time we hear “Air support down there” and the time of deployment?
As we know, there was no retardant lines placed to protect Glen Isla or Yarnell in that timeframe
———————————————————————————————–
Via the Air Study Videos we have a very good record of the various drops on the fire during all of that time.
I’m writing this off the top of my head, and way past my bedtime, but I think your question is important.
Until the 4;30-ish drop that the SAIR incorrectly (imho) said Eric said ‘that’s where we want it,” the aerial fire-fighting was going on on the northeast and then east flanks of the fire. Firstly defending areas in the Model Creek Road area, and then in the Sickles Road Area.
After that, in the time framework you are speaking of, the aerial fire-fighting then turned it’s attention to the southwest part of the fire. They then managed to put in one line of retardant at around 4:30 (from, I think, about Shrine Road north-eastward), and then while they were lining up the DC-10 for a line continuing that, the Deployment happened.
After the deployment, they continued dropping retardant from the first line they put in all the way towards the northeast, to defend Yarnell.
The line Bravo 3 dropped, earlier in the day, across the bowl was basically in vain.
However, it looks to me that the lines dropped in the Model Creek Road area and across the top of Yarnell were successful, via the aerial photos in this article on this UK-based Daily Mail Website:
—————————————————————————————-
“Devastation left by ‘firestorm’ that killed 19 Arizona firefighters: Shocking aerial images show town burned to the ground by blaze”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2353353/Arizona-wild-fires-pictures-Shocking-aerial-images-utter-devastation.html
You have to scroll down a bit to come to the actually quite interesting collection of aerial photos that show where the retardant lines stopped the fire. I’ve mapped almost all of these photos, by the way. I have absolutely no clue how they managed to obtain these photos.
So, imho, the story is…………complicated.
OK its more than past my bedtime. Goodnight.
PS. Given what I’ve seen in these aerial photos, it has always disturbed me that they didn’t start that line above Glen Illah. I don’t know why that was the case. I really don’t and it bothers me.
Thanks marti. I agree. I agree, and per Eric Pane bakers notes, the drops to protect yarnell were suppose to begin around 1550. And that is the same time we hear Able tell Marsh air support down there. And, as fucked up as the YIN seem to be, B33 seems to be saying they got a direct call from Marsh about the supposed that is exactly where we want it.
“B33 seems to be saying they got a direct call from Marsh about the supposed that is exactly where we want it.:
We’ve pretty much known forever that that wasn’t Eric saying that.
See below (or above?). It may, logically speaking, have been Dan Sullivan.
And yer welcome. Thanks for asking that. It took me longer than I intended to answer your question. And now look where we are!!!
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 15, 2016 at 4:57 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> PS. Given what I’ve seen in these aerial photos, it has always disturbed
>> me that they didn’t start that line above Glen Illah.
Thomas French himself would later say ( over the Air-To-Air channel ) that that is what he WANTED to do… but he and John Burfiend wasted too much time ‘finishing up’ what they were doing on the NORTH end before (eventually) turning their attention to the SOUTH part of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
They lost the opportunity to ‘get under the column’ and do anything to protect most of Yarnell or any part of Glen Ilah because they had been too pre-occupied with finishing those retardant lines up in the Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road areas ( even though the fire had already turned south and wasn’t really threatening those areas anymore ).
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I don’t know why that was the case. I really don’t and it bothers me.
At 3:50 PM, just 8 minutes before he would depart the fire because his pilot was ‘timing out’… Air Attack Rory Collins called Thomas French and John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ to inform them he was leaving… and he also TOLD them the fire was now “Headed for Yarnell” and they needed to “swing around and take a look at that”.
Thomas French responded with a “We’re headed that way”.
This is EXACTLY the time ( 3:50 PM ) that Todd Abel had just told Eric Marsh “We’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP”.
But Thomas French and John Burfiend did no such thing.
They simply STAYED up on the NORTH end of the fire for almost the next full HALF HOUR just ‘finishing up’ the retardant line work they had been doing in the Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road area(s).
Air Attack Rory Collins left the fire ( at 3:58 PM ) with the full expectation that ‘Bravo 33′ had heard what he told them and that they were “headed that way” to see about defending Yarnell and Glen Ilah… but French and Burfiend did no such thing.
Here is that exact Air-To-Air conversation between Rory Collins and Thomas French circa 3:50 PM…
—————————————————————————————
+2:38 ( 1550.24 / 3:50.34 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Bravo three three… Air Attack.
+2:40 ( 1550.26 / 3:50.36 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead Air Attack.
+2:41 ( 1550.27 / 3:50.37 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a heck
of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah…
Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to
check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine
one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.
+2:58 ( 1550.44 / 3:50.44 PM )
(B33 – French): Copy… we’re headed that way.
+3:00 ( 1550.46 / 3:50.46 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Ground contact out there… ahhhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha
+3:05 ( 1550.51 / 3:50.51 PM )
(B33 – French): Ground contact Alpha.
+3:10 ( 1550.56 / 3:50.56 PM )
(Tanker 413): And four one three is comin’ on scene… I’m on the south side of the ridge.
+3:15
(B33 – French): Okay… four one three… Bravo 33. I’m up at… uh… fifty seven I’m
gonna go to fifty eight. I gotcha in sight. Just standby for now.
Uh… If ya got me in sight I’m about your… uh… oh… two o’clock on the far north…
ah… west corner. I’m poppin’ smoke now. Ya got me?
————————————————————————-
So even right after being informed of the “heck of wind shift” and being told to “swing around and have a look”… and also being informed that the person to contact down there was ‘Division Alpha’…
…as soon as French got off that call with Collins he turned his attention back to making retardant drops on the NORTH end with Tanker 410.
VLAT 910 was about 20 minutes out… but even 20 minutes later… Thomas French still wanted to use the inbound VLAT to ‘finish up’ that work he was doing on the NORTH end before turning his attention to Yarnell.
So by the time Thomas French and John Burfiend actually got down to the SOUTH end of the fire ( almost a full HALF-HOUR after they had told Collins they were “headed that way” )… it was TOO LATE.
The column was now ‘leaning over’ and it was TOO LATE for them to get either ahead or underneath it to do anythinig to protect the majority of Yarnell or any part of Glen Ilah.
By the way… now that we KNOW Air Support Group Supervisor ( ASGS ) Dan Sullivan was right there in the Ranch House Restaurant / Glen Ilah area in this timeframe… then I wonder if HE might have been the one (supposedly) calling up to ‘Bravo 33’ circa 4:37 PM with that “That’s where we want retardant” radio message.
As ASGS… that is EXACTLY something he would have been likely to do.
Just barely waking up.
“By the way… now that we KNOW Air Support Group Supervisor ( ASGS ) Dan Sullivan was right there in the Ranch House Restaurant / Glen Ilah area in this timeframe… then I wonder if HE might have been the one (supposedly) calling up to ‘Bravo 33′ circa 4:37 PM with that “That’s where we want retardant” radio message.
As ASGS… that is EXACTLY something he would have been likely to do.”
Ayep. Can you compare the voices?
I can’t believe ADOSH didn’t interview him (I’ve always felt that way). …….Oh wait……………
I can’t believe the USFS Air Study crew wasn’t recording the Air to Ground radio channel. ………………….Oh wait…………………………………
MOAR COFFEE!
There is also an even stronger possibility now that the conversation we hear finishing between John Burfiend and ( WHO? ) on the A2G channel at the very start of the original Aaron Hulburd ‘Helmet Can’ video ( and just seconds before we hear Steed’s first psuedo-MAYDAY call ) very likely COULD have been this Air Support Group Supervisor (ASGS) Dan Sullivan guy talking to Burfiend.
The content of that conversation seems to be EXACTLY what some ASGS guy WOULD be talking about to an ‘Air Attack / Lead Plane’.
Someone was telling Burfiend WHERE they wanted the Air Operations to focus… and we HEAR Burfiend reporting back that they would “do the best we can but it’s gonna be hard with that valley and all that smoke”.
Someone needs to INTERVIEW this Dan Sullivan guy. Long overdue.
And it has ALWAYS been ODD that the only thing we hear at the start of that original Helmet Cam video is simply the END of that conversation that Burfiend was having with ???? someone.
We ( conveniently? ) never hear the voice of WHO Burfiend was talking TO, at that point.
I still say that if anyone was ‘chopping out’ parts of these Hulburd videos… the easiest ( and most hard to detect ) edits would be to just ‘chop off’ parts of them at either the beginning or the end of any particular video clip.
Could we really be looking at some actual massive attempt to HIDE the fact that this Dan Sullivan guy from the Prescott National Forest was ever there and/or ever actively participating in the Yarnell Hill Fire?
Including ( but not limited to? ) hiding any ‘recues’ he might have performed AND making sure his VOICE never appears on any publicly released video clips?
I would still love to see someone sit down with PNF employee Aaron Hulburd and go over each and every one of those released video clips and have him swear on any stack of books of his own choosing that nothing is ‘missing’ or has been ‘chopped off’ the starts or ends of ALL those video clips of his.
Dickson”s book states 30,000 gallons–I don’t know where he got that data.
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 14, 2016 at 12:32 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I. Just. Can’t. Even. I mean really. WHY?????????
>>
>> I’m completely mind-boggled.
As I (reluctantly) mentioned down below… one of the ONLY reasons I can think of for Gary Cordes to be sitting there telling ADOSH he performed a rescue that he did NOT do… is because it was DECIDED sometime beforehand ( by some individuals? ) that he SHOULD do that.
In other words… someone decided it was better for Gary Cordes to just take credit for BOTH of those rescues ( whether he did one or both of them or not ) just so that ASGS Dan Sullivan wouldn’t show up ‘on the radar’ as another person that needed to be ‘interviewed’.
There is really no doubt that a certain effort was being made to HIDE the fact that ANY Prescott National Forest employees where ever THERE working in Yarnell that day. I’m talking about Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell as well.
There are times ( when reading the SAIT YIN notes ), with all the various mis-spellings of THEIR names in that document whenever they were mentioned… that that might have actually been done on purpose just to make it HARD to tell they were even THERE.
So the same might be true for this Dan Sullivan guy.
Someone decided, for some reason, it was best to try and HIDE that fact that any Prescott National Forest employees were ever even THERE in Yarnell… to prevent anyone ( as in, ADOSH ) from even trying to ‘interview’ them.
They SUCCEEDED.
NO ONE from the ‘Prescott National Forest’ who was there working in Yarnell the day of the tragedy was EVER interviewed ADOSH.
ADOSH didn’t know to REQUEST those interviews because the SAIT did a bang-up job of hiding the fact that they WERE, in fact, there that day and ‘involved’ in what was happening.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> So we’ve got Gary Cordes:
>>
>> 1) Telling Marsh and GM that Boulder Springs Ranch was some kind of a
>> larger-than-it-was “bomb-proof” safety zone.
Even almost 3 months AFTER the incident… Gary Cordes was still over-estimating the SIZE of the ‘safety zone’ ( in his ADOSH interview ) by more than EIGHT TO TEN TIMES.
It was only 3 to 3 and 1/2 acres, max… and Cordes was telling ADOSH it was upwards of 30 acres.
A = Gary Cordes, SPGS1 at the Yarnell Hill Fire… talking to ADOSH investigators…
—————————————————–
A: It’s a very large uh, 20 to 30 acre open site uh, that was real cleaned out and it was pretty – it was bomb proof.
—————————————————–
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 2) Not giving that same “information” to Blue Ridge.
Correct.
Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown had NO IDEA where the Boulder Springs Ranch even was, or that it had been established as the ‘pre-determined safety zone’ that morning ( by Cordes ) for Granite Mountain and any other crew working the same area.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 3) Co-masterminding (with Eric Marsh?) a Last Minute Hail Mary Plan (as the fire
>> was reversing direction) to put in a Dozer Line off of the top of Glen Illah to the
>> driveway of Boulder Springs Ranch (most likely).
From TFLDT(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log…
————————————————–
1445 ( 2:45 PM )
Met with Structure Group 2 ( Gary Cordes ). Plan to use TF2 ( Esquibel’s Task Force 2 ) resources to tie dozer line to rock outcrop on Mountain west of Shrine Road in Harper Canyon.
Blue Ridge IHC AND Granite Mountain IHC ( BOTH Type 1 Hotshot crews ) to improve dozer line.
1632 ( 4:32 PM )
St Group 1 ( Cordes ) request (1) engine to Boulder Spgs. ( and also says to make sure Granite Mountain gets out of there safely ).
————————————————–
From Cory Ball’s Unit Log…
——————————————————
1600
BRIHC one ( Brian Frisby ) informs Structure Group One ( Gary Cordes ) they are pushing engines everyone out of subdivision.
Structure group one ( Gary Cordes ) assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell ( the Glen Ilah area ).
Acquire ATV ( lime-yellow ATV from Yarnell Fire Department ).
Travel into subdivision ( Glen Ilah ) back to Dozer line.
——————————————————
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 4) Apparently, not saying a word to anybody, while the “rescue attempt” was
>> being conceived, in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant,
>> of where he basically figured GM was.
Nope. ‘Apparently’ not.
Even though he seemed SURE where they were ( either already AT or just SHORT of the Boulder Springs Ranch )… Gary Cordes makes NO mention in his ADOSH interview of ever telling ANYONE who was trying to figure out where to start looking for Granite Mountain what he was so SURE of that he said “Bullshit” to Captain Reyes… in that same parking lot… just feet away from those same FFs trying to desperately figure out where to start looking for Granite Mountain.
At that moment… for all anyone knew… more than half those men COULD have been still more than half-alive… and there is no evidence Gary Cordes made any attempt to help anyone try to figure out where to start looking for them.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 5) Claiming that he rescued these two people when, according to one of them, it
>> wasn’t him that did that, but another fire-fighter that turns out to be the
>> fricken Air Support Group Supervisor Dan Sullivan.
See above. The only thing that comes to mind ( to me ) at the moment is that he was TOLD to take credit for something he didn’t do just to try and hide that fact that Prescott National Forest employee Dan Sullivan was even THERE in Yarnell that day.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 6) Accepting a big-time award for “doing that” which he didn’t do, and Dan Sullivan
>> hasn’t said a word about any of this.
>>
>> I am completely mystified.
The simple solution is for someone to INTERVIEW Dan Sullivan.
But actually… that might not be so simple… given that he is USFS.
At this point, it might be easier to get another interview with “El Chapo” that it would be for anyone to get Dan Sullivan to say a word about any of this.
I wonder if Sean Penn is free?
I’ve got some spare ‘burner phones’ if thats what it might take to penetrate the USFS and actually get an interview with one of its employees.
YOU SAID WWTKTT: I wonder if Sean Penn is free?
MY REPLY: Sean Penn and Val Kilmer eat at my local eatery called Nichols West in Congress so maybe I will bump into him again there-
Small world, eh.
Awesome, Joy.
Sean Penn should do a documentary about YOU.
Marti…what?
Me?
Yawn.
That was a great bedtime campfire story.
About RTS…I do have to agree with him being there is no photo or physical evidence in regards to Bryan Smith recollections and due to other retired firefighters we knew he retired and he may be unapproachable and untouchable just like many who need to be talked to like bulldozer operator Paul Morin
I also think the documentary should reflect all even let me use Bob Power’s word..even MF that feel they will show you material about the fire but at an unusual manner like they hold on to gold and it sits on a MF PC and not seen by any not even the person who took it has seen it since a year and a half so I guess I don’t comprehend. I can’t sleep. I am not sure if I am nearing or gearing to the end of my time on the topic of yhf and I guess just frustrated that homeowners put a lot of trust in docs and lawyers when they should if sent their lawyers and investigators and I m their photo and accounts… I really do hate receiving or grabbing material to see how many do not give a shit…Maybe talking out of my ass right now overly tired.
Thanks for pulling my ruminations up to the top, WTKTT.
“The only thing that comes to mind ( to me ) at the moment is that he was TOLD to take credit for something he didn’t do just to try and hide that fact that Prescott National Forest employee Dan Sullivan was even THERE in Yarnell that day.”
This still doesn’t make any sense to me. He was a fricken member of the Incident Management Team. This is not the same thing as the Three Prescoteers, who were there via Bea Day’s Team, a wholly conflicted part of the story.
There was no conflict like that AT ALL regarding his being there on that fire.
Thinking out loud here.
So the USFS decided to (in order to protect its employees, after the post-Thirty-Mile-Fire debacle and the subsequent law) circle its wagons. I understand that. I don’t agree with it (especially in regards to various machinations involving the Blue Ridge Hotshots and maybe also the USFS crew on the Twisp River Fire this summer) in terms of getting the truth out (that needs to be gotten out in order to discuss what needs to be Lessons Learned regarding FireFighter safety and survival. But I can understand it, all things litigiously understood.
But seriously. I still can’t fathom this. There was absolutely nothing “to hide” in this (as they might have chosen to hide in the Blue Ridge testimonies and logs). There was nothing to “protect.”
A USFS guy, who was a part of the totally publicly documented Incident Management Team did this rescue of these people in Glen Ilah, and, somehow someone decided this had to be camouflaged and re-narrated into a narrative that Gary Cordes did it?
I just can’t fathom this.
I could possibly understand how it might have been that Dan Sullivan (for whatever reasons) might have not wanted this story to become a Big Fuckin Deal. But then to have taken his story and wrapped around Gary Cordes as a Big Fuckin Deal, and have him accepting all the kudos and rah-rahs and the award for this???????
Nothing of this is making any sense, whatsoever, to me, at all.
I agree marti
Marti… I’m on a ‘dumbphone’ again so have to keep this short… but I believe there IS a chance that ASGS Dan Sullivan was in the same ‘limbo boat’ that the other PNF employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Howell were that day. They were responding to Yarnell just based on those frantic phone calls Roy Hall started making after HE got to Yarnell… but by the time they arrived the decision had already been made to scrap the bump up to Bea Day’s Type 2 roster and go a step above to a full Type 1 team.
So it’s possible Dan Sullivan was just ‘freelancing’ on the fire the same way Clawson, Hulburd and Howell were.
Hence… (perhaps?)… someone (USFS stooge Dudley?) feeling the need to HIDE the fact that he was even there and participating… the same way the SAIT seemed to be trying to HIDE the presence and participation of Clawson, Hulburd and Howell?
dumbphone typos above, sorry.
It’s Yowell, not Howell.
KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell
Dan Sullivan wasn’t “free-lancing,”
He was on Roy Hall’s (not Bea Day’s) Incident Management Team. Even in 2014 at Asayii. And in 2015 he was still on that IMT, although the IC spot had been passed on to Nate Barrett (google Whitetail Sawmill Fire).
But everything else you are saying stands to reason.
Thanks, Maria Cantwell!
Ah… okay. Still on a ‘dumbphone’ and not near any notes… but I believe Dan Sullivan’s original Resource Order wasn’t even initiated until around 10:30 AM on Sunday morning. In other words… it was NOT initiated the night BEFORE as part of the official ‘Type 2 SHORT Team’ order… but was actually just part of that frantic “I need more help down here” round of phone calls that Roy Hall was making after ARRIVING in Yarnell?
Followup
Actually… I was able to scroll Waaaay down to where I posted Dan Sullivan’s resource order and double-check the time(s).
It was order number O-30, first entered into the system at 9:34 PNT on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013… with an ‘expected to be at work’ time of 11:00 AM PNT that same day.
So Dan Sullivan was NOT part of that original Type 2 SHORT Team order placed the night before.
He WAS part of Roy Hall’s frantic scramble to ‘ramp up’ on Sunday morning itself.
So I still am wondering if that ended up putting HIM in ‘limbo land’ by the time he showed up… just like what happened with his fellow PNF employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell?
Copy. More later, upstream.
Marti,
Thank you!
The entire ‘Dan Sullivan’ Fairy Tale, contrived from extremely tenuous and imagined connections and conversations, from a journey down a steep, slippery slope makes absolutely NO sense to me either.
I would have thought that WTKTT and other Dan Sullivan Fairy Tale supporters would be able to form an actual logically valid and well-supported argument by now.
Well, RTS, even though we can’t be CERTAIN yet as to exactly who rescued those two was, there’s no doubt that it wasn’t Gary Cordes. There’s no way to confuse his red and white truck with a green forest service truck.
What do you have to say about that?
Well Marti,
I’m not sure what to say about the truck color issue.
I do know that Gary Cordes told a a Fire Chief friend of his that, notwithstanding the GMHS deployments and fatalities and rescue missions, and more, that he (Cordes) had to keep fighting fire, saving structures and rescuing citizens, some with serious burns. Cordes said he couldn’t just stop and disengage, there was serious work to be done.
I do know that Bryan said the WFF that allegedly rescued him had a beard, yet Dan Sullivan has NO beard.
Yet, many are strongly concluding that the rescuer was Dan Sullivan even though he has NO beard.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on January 16, 2016 at 8:35 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I’m not sure what to say about the truck color issue.
Then here’s a suggestion…
“It does seem VERY unlikely that someone (anyone) could be THAT mistaken about such a major detail… regardless of the stress they might have been under”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I do know that Gary Cordes told a a Fire Chief friend of his
Who?… NAME, please.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I do know that Bryan said the WFF that allegedly
>> rescued him had a beard, yet Dan Sullivan has NO beard.
In what ‘timeframe’ are YOU now ‘asserting’ ( with such seeming assurance ) that Dan Sullivan “had NO beard”?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Yet, many are strongly concluding that the rescuer
>> was Dan Sullivan, even though he has no beard.
You either missed Joy’s recent post,
or you are choosing to ignore it.
‘Many’ are now ‘concluding’ that the ‘rescuer was Dan Sullivan’… because the actual person that was RESCUED has POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED him as the one doing it ( and NOT Gary Cordes ).
And that was also ( definitely ) ‘with or without beard’.
Just in case you DID miss it…
>> On January 13, 2016 at 7:45 pm, Joy Collura said…
>>
>> I spent 5:33pm-7:08pm with Bryan Smith and his wife Vivian
>> to CONFIRM the recent photos and videos.
>>
>> #1. I showed many types of material of Gary Cordes
>> from photos to videos to text articles—IT IS WITH FIRM
>> CONFIRMATION NOT GARY CORDES THAT SAVED BRYAN
>> SMITH AND PEARL MOORE.
>>
>> #2. The vehicle is SPOT ON IT. No doubts. At +5:37 ( out
>> of 7:52 ) ( In this video… )
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCfqkN3r3T4
>>
>> #3. Dan Sullivan. We showed everyone’s IM videos as
>> well ( the ones containing photos of Dan Sullivan ).
>> He ( Bryan Smith ) says not only does he FEEL IT —
>> he KNOWS it was Dan Sullivan… but he had a beard
>> that day.
Sonny then CONFIRMS the CONFIRMATION…
>> WTKTT asked…
>>
>> Just to be CLEAR… are you NOW saying that
>> Mr. Bryan Smith has POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED
>> Mr. Dan Sullivan as the one who actually
>> rescued him and his cousin Pearl Moore,
>> on June 30, 2013?
>> Sonny responded…
>>
>> YES.
>>
>> HE SAID THE MAN HAD A BEARD /
>> FACIAL HAIR ( on June 30, 2013 ).
Also have a look at this newly posted YouTube video…
http://youtu.be/27EPGgtLK7g
YouTube ‘About’ information…
—————————————————————
Various photos of Dan Sullivan, who was hired to be an ASGS at the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013… including photos of the all-aquamarine ‘Prescott National Forest’ 4-door vehicle he was supposedly driving that day, and some photos of him (perhaps) standing near an ambulance in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.
—————————————————————
The person shown standing next to the AMBULANCE in Tom Story’s Ranch House Restaurant parking lot photos is a ‘close match’ for the SAME person that Bryan Smith has now POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED as ‘Dan Sullivan’, of the ‘Prescott National Forest Fire Center’.
He has a ball cap… AND a ‘beard’ ( on THAT day, June 30, 2013 ), just as Bryan Smith described.
Your ‘problem’ is that even following this ‘confirmation’ from Mr. Bryan Smith, you simply don’t ‘believe’ him.
Fine. Whatever. I ( me, personally ) have no reason ( at this time ) to NOT believe him.
And for anyone who DOES believe that Bryan Smith has now identified the person who actually ‘saved’ him that day… that now also means Arizona Wildfire Academy’s “Firefighter of the Year for 2013”, Gary Cordes, was LYING to ADOSH investigators on September 11, 2013.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Who?… NAME, please.” regarding Gary Cordes.
My reply is that you will get NO name from me.
I guess I’ll have to concede on Dan Sullivan having a beard. The Dan Sullivan I know had no beard.
The statement that none of the FS people were interviewed might have its reasons. One of the things Joy uncovered was that reliable witness discussed with us that a certain official was barking out orders on the Peeples Valley end. This was a federal official — and doing this while it was a State land fire. Perhaps that individual does not want his name out there and who would if he had anything to do with the Yarnell Hill incident. I can say he is the wise one to keep a low profile and the investigators are carless not to have interviewed these forest men. Don’t these people wish all this would be accepted as they arranged it. Little Red Riding Hood isn’t that nicely garbed sheep really sheep shit.
Joy’s attempt to get premission to use photos was not of much avail. I am afraid some citizens have other motives for keeping their photos secret. Rather than help with the truth they might think there is financial gain or perhaps notoriety to be gained by holding on to them, Maybe they are right, Donut seems to have done well by keeping his mouth shut;
Copy.
“One of the things Joy uncovered was that reliable witness discussed with us that a certain official was barking out orders on the Peeples Valley end. This was a federal official — and doing this while it was a State land fire.”
Interesting.
Reply to Woodsman post on
January 14, 2016 at 1:10 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Was Cordes the one, upon being told by (someone?) at the ranch house
>> restaurant parking lot that GM deployed, who said something like,
>> “bullshit, they had plenty of time to get there.”??
>>
>> Can someone ‘clean up’ that part for me? Thanks,
>> On January 14, 2016 at 9:54 am, Marti replied…
>>
>> Yes.
From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ one-and-only ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Gary Cordes, SPGS1 in Yarnell on June 30, 2013
——————————————————-
Q1: Okay. Um, so uh, at, at some point um, air uh, during all of this, um, um, how did you uh, how did you hear of the uh, deployments?
A: That was back when I met with the group uh, before I went in to do the rescues, uh, when I met with Engine 59. It was Engine 59 that told me that they had transmitted over the radio, over air to ground that they had deployed and I, and I, it was Charlie Reyes whose the, whose the engine boss down there and I told him BS, that uh, they didn’t need to deploy ‘cause the safety’s, they were in their safety zone and it was bomb proof and he said no, they never got – made it there, they got cut off. And that’s when I knew obviously something bad had most likely occurred.
Q1: Okay. Um, so there was no, there was no question in your mind though that when, when Eric indicated he was going to the safety zone, he wasn’t talking about the black, he was talking about the, the Helm Ranch?
A: Yes
——————————————————-
At another point in the same interview with Cordes…
——————————————————-
Q1: Uh, he ( Eric Marsh ) tells air attack that he’s going to his designated, pre-designated safety zone…
A: Right.
Q1: …and he doesn’t say where that is, he just says, safety zone?
A: Right.
Q1: And so your assumption is…
A: He had plenty of time to get there and, and he was headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
——————————————————-
SPGS1 Gary Cordes was the ONLY person from the ‘fire command’ ranks at Yarnell who admitted ( to investigators ) that he never had ANY doubts at all that Granite Mountain was NOT ‘in the safe black’ anymore and that they were, in fact, heading towards the Boulder Springs Ranch during the critical timeframe afternoon.
The original SAIR report had this this to say about whether anyone really KNEW Granite Mountain had, indeed, ‘left the black’ and whether anyone really KNEW where they were going…
On PDF page 9 of the original SAIR document…
——————————————————–
Although much communication occurred among crews throughout the day, few people understood Granite Mountain’s intentions, movements, and location, once they left the black. The Team believes this is due to brief, informal, and vague radio transmissions and talkarounds that can occur during wildland fire communications. Based on radio conversations, Operations and other resources had concluded the Granite Mountain IHC was located in the black, near the ridge top where they had started that morning. This resulted in confusion about the crew’s actual location at the time of search and rescue.
——————————————————–
** Key phrase…
“few people understood Granite Mountain’s intentions, movements, and location, once they left the black.”
Keyword: FEW ( people ).
As in… SOME people ( like Cordes ) DID KNOW their ‘intentions, movements and location… once they left the black”, and the SAIT KNEW that these SOME PEOPLE ( like Cordes ) KNEW it. They just didn’t want to talk about that because it didn’t fit their pre-determined narrative.
That piece of ‘SAIR speak’ is right up there with them also saying they had ALMOST no evidence of direct communications with Granite Mountain.
ALMOST? That still means they DID have evidence of ‘direct communications’ with Granite Mountain during their alleged ’30 minute blackout’… but they didn’t want to talk about that, either, for the same reasons. Evidence like that didn’t ‘fit’ their pre-determined narrative.
** Key phrase…
“Based on radio conversations, Operations and other resources had concluded the Granite Mountain IHC was located in the black, near the ridge top where they had started that morning.”
So even in the same paragraph… the SAIT decided to ignore their own statement that SOME PEOPLE KNEW exactly where GM was going, and they finish that same paragraph with a carte-blanche “Operations and other resources had concluded they were in the black, near the ridge top”.
That was NEVER where SPGS1 Gary Cordes thought they were, in the timeframe in question.
Gary Cordes met with OPS2 Paul Musser face-to-face there on the side of Highway 89 AFTER the radio communications that Cordes mentions above to ADOSH which convinced HIM that Granite was, in fact, “on their way to the Boulder Springs Ranch” in that timeframe.
We’re supposed to believe Cordes didn’t mention this to Musser, when the actual PURPOSE of their face-to-face on Highway 89 was to determine ‘who was where’ and what ‘resources’ could be brought to bear in Yarnell?
Yea, right.
** Key phrase ( from the SAIT )…
“This resulted in confusion about the crew’s actual location at the time of search and rescue”.
The “This” part of that SAIR statement is referring to THEIR conclusion that they had no idea where to even start looking for Granite Mountain simply because of ‘bad radio communications and talkaround”.
But there is SPGS1 Gary Cordes telling ADOSH he was so SURE they had already made it to their ‘pre-determined safety zone’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch that his initial reaction to being informed by Captain Reyes they had ‘deployed’ was ( direct quote from Cordes himself ) “BS, that uh, they didn’t need to deploy ‘cause the safety’s, they were in their safety zone and it was bomb proof”
The fact that this is what SPGS1 Gary Cordes believed is also totally backed up by the other evidence of the captured radio conversation with TLFD(t) Tyson Esquibel, a few minutes before the deployment radio traffic.
Cordes TOLD Esquibel to send ‘some engines’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch and also specifically told him to “make sure Granite gets out of there safely”.
Captain Reyes informed Gary Cordes of the ‘deployment’ right there in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant… where we see that group of FFs already huddled and desperately trying to organize a ground rescue mission… and desperately trying to figure out WHERE to even START looking for Granite Mountain.
But ( apparently )… even after being told by Reyes about the ‘deployment’… Gary Cordes made NO attempt to go over and tell this ‘ground rescue mission’ what he KNEW… and what he seemed so SURE of that he would say “Bullshit” to Reyes.
We’re supposed to now believe that, rather than do THAT, Gary Cordes just took off from the RHR parking lot and now explains his absence from those ‘ground rescue mission’ planning operations with stories about going to do RESCUES that there is now evidence he didn’t even do?
For all anyone knew… during those critical moments in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot… more than half those men COULD have still been more than half-alive ‘out there somewhere’.
And Cordes doesn’t even bother to TELL them what he was so SURE of?
That Granite Mountain MUST have been ( as he was so sure of ) either VERY close to, or had already ARRIVED at this place out at the west end of Glen Ilah called the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’?
Big fat WTF.
( NOTE: I wish we could increase the FONT size here and do BOLDFACE… because that’s what I would do with that WTF on the line above ).
WTKTT:
Thank you for clearing all of that up for me. Following the facts to their logical conclusion sure is getting ugly…and it’s probably just the beginning. Good work.
Not necessarily addressed to you:
I think there is a tendency towards FS protecting their own (which I can understand). I know the culture, have worked in it, and there are some really talented firefighters in ‘the business.’ I respect the years of work people like Bob and RTS have put into it but I don’t idolize them (no Joy, I’m not going to stand at attention for them or salute them or whatever.) I agree with B/RTS that by GM agreeing to move how and where they did OR by coming up with that all on their own, is what killed them, but (here is where I disagree with them) if there’s more to the story, it SHOULD come out! What I don’t agree with is that’s the end of the story. What I really don’t understand is why all the anger (MF, Go to hell, etc) towards people presenting facts and pursuing the complete truth. I don’t know what the harm is unless someone is so ‘entrenched’ in the federal wildfire business, that they really get uncomfortable when regular folks start asking questions about ‘the business’. It became ‘plan B’ when the public was denied the truth in the first place…to do what we are doing here. If leadership screwed up and helped kill firefighters, they need to be out of the business (depending on the magnitude of the fuck up.)
Joy, great work interviewing Bryan. Oh, I see he being discredited here…actually by someone you think we should ‘stand at attention’ for…doesn’t surprise me . Keep up the good work and don’t let going to court intimidate you. You can’t be convicted of a crime if you don’t commit one.
Woodsman
YOU SAID:
You can’t be convicted of a crime if you don’t commit one.
MY REPLY:
Have you been through the YAVAPAI COUNTY court system—
let me enclose a link-
I know alot of people that would say that is the way it should be your statement but not how it is…
http://www.examiner.com/article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse
Woodsman
First and foremost I worked my way up thru the FF ranks I am not a a expert nor do I expect you or any on to bow to me.
My feud with WTKTT has been of and on for 2 and a half years.
It came to a head this past couple of months.
If BR which I was not protecting but asking for WTKTT to show specifics that they were almost trapped and that there was none.
WTKTT thinks the entire Federal Fire organization is unsafe I disagree
For several reasons. Had you followed this thread through out you would see I have not been complacent to the FS or BLM including the Fire my Father was killed on
I am a 33 year on the ground FF and I have a long history of disagreeing with Supervisors I have won a few and lost a few.
I got mad and I am still mad at WTKTT snippet remarks on here during his lectures and info posts it has been happening a long time to me and others. When it is no longer a discussion but his personal vendetta he will and has started his arrogant attacks on me and others.
Thus I finally got to the name calling and also like RTS I will not respond to him again personally.
Woodsman I respect you as a FF and what you say Believe that.
Yes I am also deeply FS Green My dad started in the FS when I was 5.
I have been associated with the FS as a child 13 years living in the woods and FS compounds to making the FS a carrier 34 years to drawing a FF Gov. retirement for 23 years many of my close friends Retired and working are FS.
So yes I am part of that Thin Green Line and proud of it and yes I can get pissed if I think some one is pushing the Limits in their remarks. Put that into perspective of where I come from.
What I said about WTKTT still stands he is a MF and he can Go to hell in my book I do not respect him any more and I could care less what he thinks of me.
Just like the person Called Elisabeth. WTKTT out wore his welcome with me.
Woodsman,
You posted a reply to WTKTT: “Following the FACTS to their logical conclusion sure is getting ugly…and it’s probably just the beginning. Good work.”
I have issue with those that are so sure that the entire Dan Sullivan and Gary Cordes debacle is based on FACTS. I contend that it is NOT based on facts, but very flimsy, tenuous, and weak ‘evidence.’ Even the word ‘evidence’ may be too strong here. I believe that it’s possible (lawyers like to say that ‘anything is possible’), NOT very likely that any of it occurred as he claims.
I contend it falls into the Logical Fallacy of ‘Appeal to Ignorance — the claim that whatever has not been proved false must be true, and vice versa.’ Such is the case with the entire Dan Sullivan and Gary Cordes Fairy Tale.
You also posted: “but (here is where I disagree with them) if there’s more to the story, it SHOULD come out!”
So then, it appears that you are afraid to post this directly to myself or Bob Powers, referring to us as ‘THEM,’ and instead appear to be sucking up to WTKTT. Your prerogative.
You posted in conclusion to Joy with reference to her friend Bryan: “Oh, I see he being discredited here…actually by someone you think we should ‘stand at attention’ for…doesn’t surprise me .”
First, I am NOT ‘discrediting’ him as you allege, just calling into question what she claims he saw and heard and such. Nothing wrong with that. Secondly, once again, it appears that you are afraid to post this directly to myself, and instead refer to me as ”SOMEONE YOU THINK WE SHOULD ‘STAND AT ATTENTION FOR.’ What? You don’t have the stones to post/reply directly to me? Once again, your prerogative.
I thought you were above being an obsequious sycophant.
RTS,
I ain’t afraid of nobody. How’s that for grammar?
Look, we disagree. It’s cool. Makes life interesting.
Bob (Mr. RTS sir, if it’s OK with you, I;m going to use one post to reply to more than one person, Gosh, I hope that’s alright…someone might think I’m trying to avoid somebody…………..eyeroll…………..
I completely understand, Bob. You are someone I respect and I always appreciate what you have to say. I would like to sit down with you and have a beer – I know I could learn something. Seriously, thank you for your service and sacrifice.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Dazed and confused?
You realize that Bob (Bob Powers) and Robert the Second (RTS) are TWO separate people, right?
Because here – you posted: “Bob (Mr. RTS sir” and here “I completely understand, Bob.” it’s as if you think Bob and RTS are one and the same.
Interesting Concept
Ill have to think about that????
Just for thought true name—-Robert F. Powers
Not—- Robert T. Second
And the beat goes on.
I spent 5:33pm-7:08pm with Bryan Smith and his wife Vivian to CONFIRM the recent photos and videos.
#1. I showed many types of material of Gary Cordes from photos to videos to text articles—IT IS WITH FIRM CONFIRMATION NOT GARY CORDES THAT SAVED BRYAN SMITH AND PEARL MOORE and both Bryan and Vivian Smith encourage Gary to do a reunion with them.
#2. The vehicle is SPOT ON IT. No doubts.
5:37 out 7:52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCfqkN3r3T4
#3. Dan Sullivan. We showed everyone’s IM videos as well as ran a background and history cached check and he says not only does he FEEL IT—he knows it was Dan Sullivan but he had a beard that day.
On way home I stopped by Jim’s to take a look at his Saturday videos but no answer— try again another time.
Glad I was able to get that video to you on time, Joy. It was a scramble.
This really is mind-boggling.
thank you Marti
You are totally welcome. So glad I was able to help with this.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 13, 2016 at 7:45 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I spent 5:33pm-7:08pm with Bryan Smith and his wife Vivian
>> to CONFIRM the recent photos and videos.
>>
>> #1. I showed many types of material of Gary Cordes from photos to
>> videos to text articles—IT IS WITH FIRM CONFIRMATION NOT GARY
>> CORDES THAT SAVED BRYAN SMITH AND PEARL MOORE and both
>> Bryan and Vivian Smith encourage Gary to do a reunion with them.
Thank you, Joy.
So that means that unless there was some OTHER ‘rescue’ back there in Glen Ilah that afternoon that ended up with almost 100 percent IDENTICAL circumstances AND details to what happened to Bryan Smith and Pearl Moore…
…then Arizona Fire Academy’s “Firefighter of the Year for 2013” award winner, Gary Cordes, was completely LYING to ADOSH investigators about that second rescue he says HE performed ( and was one of the ones for which he was given the award ).
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> #2. The vehicle is SPOT ON IT. No doubts.
>> 5:37 out 7:52
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCfqkN3r3T4
The Prescott Daily Courier ran an article about a grass fire near the Prescott Airport on April 7, 2014. One of the photographs accompanying that article shows the Prescott National Forest’s ‘Prescott Aviation/Fire Center’ there at the airport.
The same vehicle from the GM funeral procession that you are now saying is SPOT ON ( and the one that actually did rescue Bryan and Pearl ) is in that same photograph that accompanies that article, parked in one of the parking spaces adjacent to the ‘Prescott Fire/Aviation Center’ there at the Prescott Airport.
If Dan Sullivan worked as an ‘Air Support’ person for the Prescott National Forest ( as Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log says he did )… then that is most likely WHERE Dan Sullivan worked.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Grass fire ignites near airport
Published: 5/7/2014 6:00:00 AM
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubsectionID=1&ArticleID=131418
Second photograph on the page.
THREE ‘all-aquamarine’ 4-door SUV/Suburban-style vehicles parked right outside this ‘Prescott National Forest Fire/Aviation Center’… including one that is an exact match for the vehicle seen at +5:37 (out +7:52) in the GM funeral procession video up above.
So that would just seem to be even MORE proof that the person who was driving that vehicle that actually rescued Bryan and Peral was *most* likely ASGS Dan Sullivan, from the Prescott National Forest.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> #3. Dan Sullivan. We showed everyone’s IM videos as well as ran a
>> background and history cached check and he says not only does
>> he FEEL IT—he knows it was Dan Sullivan but he had a beard that day.
I think that one got away from you just a little, Joy.
Just to be CLEAR… are you NOW saying that Mr. Bryan Smith has positively identified Mr. Dan Sullivan as the one who actually rescued him and his cousin Pearl Moore, on June 30, 2013?
YES. HE SAID THE MAN HAD A BEARD/FACIAL HAIR. HE WANTS TO MEET DAN WITH GARY CORDES—
Thank you, Sonny.
So that’s it then.
“Firefighter of the Year for 2013” Gary Cordes was LYING to Arizona State ADOSH investigators during his interview.
ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ) Dan Sullivan, who was working for the Prescott National Forest ( and a FEDERAL employee ) on June 30, 2013, was the one who ACTUALLY saved Bryan Smith and Pearl Moore.
Now for the “slowly I turned moment”.
WHY would he stoop to that?
Was he ASKED to ‘take credit’ for that… just so Dan Sullivan himself would NOT be ‘identified’ as the person making that rescue?
The way Gary Cordes related the DETAILS of that rescue ( verbally, and without notes ) to ADOSH during his interview… it’s almost like he had ‘rehearsed the story’ beforehand in order to actually get all those ‘details’ correct.
Very strange.
It also now calls into question pretty much EVERYTHING else Gary Cordes might have been saying during that same interview.
If Cordes was so ready to LIE about this ‘rescue’… then what ELSE was he LYING about during the SAME interview?
And WHY?
Followup…
And if anyone was ever “rolling their eyes” and wondering WHY some of us felt it was so important to get ‘down in the weeds’ and do the best we could to identify WHO was driving WHAT vehicle that day in Yarnell…
…then wonder no more.
THIS is EXACTLY why that kind of information can be very IMPORTANT.
It can help to VERIFY other pieces of evidence… and find out ( like we just did ) whether someone was LYING to investigators, or not.
WTKTT,
So let me get this straight…in 49 hours and 2 minutes you all figured out that someone that claimed to make a rescue (and got an award for it) actually did not, Identified the real rescuer, the vehicle they were driving at the time, with a corroboration from the victim? ….pretty gosh-darned impressive!!
One never knows where the search for ‘the rest of the story’ will lead. Amazing.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
January 13, 2016 at 11:32 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> So let me get this straight…in 49 hours and 2
>> minutes you all figured out that someone that
>> claimed to make a rescue (and got an award for it)
>> actually did not,
Not just any ‘someone’.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
He is now firmly in that same ‘club’ as SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley.
People that have not only been caught LYING with their pants down… but their pants are also fully on-fire down around their ankles.
Gary Cordes remains one of the KEY WITNESSES to this tragedy… and not EVERYTHING he might have been saying to investigators needs to be called into question.
If ( as we have just proved ) he was so ready and willing to LIE to Arizona State investigators about his actual involvement in ‘rescues’ that day…
…then what ELSE was he LYING about during that SAME interview?
And WHY?
Whoops… typo up above.
I typed ‘not’ where I meant to type ‘now’.
Paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
——————————————-
Gary Cordes remains one of the KEY WITNESSES to this tragedy… and now EVERYTHING he might have been saying to investigators needs to be called into question.
——————————————–
“If ( as we have just proved ) he was so ready and willing to LIE to Arizona State investigators about his actual involvement in ‘rescues’ that day…
…then what ELSE was he LYING about during that SAME interview?
And WHY?”
Exactly. See what I’ve written below.
I. Just. Can’t. Even. I mean really. WHY?????????
I’m completely mind-boggled.
So we’ve got Gary Cordes:
1) Telling Marsh and GM that Boulder Springs Ranch was some kind of a larger-than-it-was “bomb-proof” safety zone.
2) Not giving that same “information” to Blue Ridge.
3) Co-masterminding (with Eric Marsh?) a Last Minute Hail Mary Plan (as the fire was reversing direction) to put in a Dozer Line off of the top of Glen Illah to the driveway of Boulder Springs Ranch (most likely).
4) Apparently, not saying a word to anybody, while the “rescue attempt” was being conceived, in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant, of where he basically figured GM was.
5) Claiming that he rescued these two people when, according to one of them, it wasn’t him that did that, but another fire-fighter that turns out to be the fricken Air Support Group Supervisor Dan Sullivan.
6) Accepting a big-time award for “doing that” which he didn’t do, and Dan Sullivan hasn’t said a word about any of this.
I am completely mystified.
Namaste.
And, yes, this, as WTKTT wrote:
“If ( as we have just proved ) he was so ready and willing to LIE to Arizona State investigators about his actual involvement in ‘rescues’ that day…
…then what ELSE was he LYING about during that SAME interview?
And WHY?”
Completely agree. Dumbfounded.
(But, doncha know, we’re just a bunch of conspiracy theorists).
PS. Massive kudos to you, WTKTT, for thinking outside the box at the first on this, even though we had mostly NOTHING to go on regarding that truck, and leading us to Dan Sullivan.
Brilliant.
While I’m absolutely gobsmacked at this should it be true, and if true ….well to be honest I don’t know where it leads legally there in the US, but it defo’needs to be looked at; However – can we all just take a step back.
Are we 100% sure the Bryan Smith is remembering this crystal clear? For instance I have been in some tight situations with friends, where we have all remembered it differently, and those differences sometimes contradict each other.
I dunno – for instance, is it possible that Cordes and Sullivan had been part of the same rescue, just different links in the chain, So Cordes picked up the Bryan and Pearl and passed them onto Sullivan at some point?
Gary Cordes mis-remembers: Thinks he passed them onto an ambulance, which was maybe actually Sullivan?
Bryan Smith mis-remembers: Only remembers Sullivan well enough and confuses him with Cordes who originally picked him up?
Dan Sullivan: nothing……….. :s (and potentially missed out on an award)
I’m not making excuses, consider it more playing Devils advocate.
I think the accusation that the rescue of Bryan and Pearl by one person (Cordes) was a BIG FAT LIE – IS HUGE!!!!!
It would be good to be sure, 100%, without doubt., that there are no other (reasonable) reasons as to why the stories/vehicles/persons/beards etc don’t stack up.
…it sounds to me like you’re all close to 100% on this though.
You guys, as a team rock!
Otis- The account with Bryan is FIRM but Bryan/I are busy looking up the CURRENT contact information to thank Dan Sullivan for saving Bryan and Pearl’s life. We hope the man sends a note back or even visits Bryan to see IN PERSON him. The digging did not just stop there with just getting a FIRM account recollection. We are looking for Gary Cordes current contact information so Bryan can mail him too. No Otis, his memory is very FIRM on it. I hounded that topic and redundantly showed him stuff until it was exhausting because I wanted to make sure even though Bryan was FIRM before I wrote it on here. Also Otis, the stuff that happens in 2016 and I just hired a very expensive lawyer to handle some private points and see how to legally go—just remember the past few years how I gave the folks ample time to SPEAK UP…and when I do speak up it will be guided behind a lawyer this time not just popping my mouth off here. I gave the folks ample enough time (don’t you think) and even an extra year because I had that court order on a matter tied to a comment on this page and as well court order cored to the YHF aftermath so I am much more prepared this time around that what comes out of my mouth is only with the intent to reach clarity of all areas on the fire even who saved who and got awards for it. Had I never saw what I did as a teen I would of never even looked at that area but because I did I said NO STONE will go unturned. I will never do what I did and speak direct to a PUBLIC FIGURE on IM out of frustration because I saw bullying tone from YCSO to then next day get a call with apology from same person explaining the sensitivity of the matter so that is HOW that frustrated comment landed here in the first place—you have a high up YCSO folk talk in tone I saw that day; it would get you frustrated—I won’t write DIRECT on here because I saw up close the impartial ways of the system and I know Gary said once my order was up he had his own plans on topic but at this time I personally would rather not reflect to that spot and keep bringing up more clarity to that weekend and my court case to me only proved Willis is capable of hearsay on the stand to support another yet he can not vote in support of same person along with another person when it came down to a vote at a memorial meeting—where was his support to her then?
Now, what happened to me in court and the tying me to medium bullshit—whatever—anyone who knows me (my family and Sonny’s family and my pals KNOW I have prayed for each time to not happen) Like this week the person was due here but it was rescheduled so maybe just maybe the POWER of prayer is stronger than one might think—
I am not into that shit but I am tied to that area like it or not and here is a solid example. I shared something to a family member that happen to me after my father passed and it was a solid verified event that took place in 1965 before I was even born but it was something my father showed me after his passing that only him and this other person knew about and noone else could of known that so YES I do have something that happens to me when awake that is unexplainable to me and I was whoosh it away with prayer because other mediums say embrace the gift but I whoosh it away and I don’t want it. Another thing after my dad’s passing he guided me to people I never met to let them know he died—I was a toddler—and I have my mom on conference call listening in background as I dial this person I do not know but my mom wants to hear me speak to the man and she was like WHOAH…all those years passed and the person always loved my dad and he just vanished and I gave that man closure for he had been looking for him for forty years…so yes, like it or not I do have some odd thing I like to not admit happens in my life but it does and I am straight forward enough to share it here but THAT was a “focus” in my court case when it should of never been. That was terrible to make me out to something I do not even like to bring light to publicly but I am honest enough to share ME as life happens..I could write a book on those odd moments I refuse to engage in but never imagined it to be a part of a court proceeding about ME because that ain’t ME just an odd factor that is verified by others does happen to me. So Otis I AGREE with you—the FIRM confirmation is not enough and it is in the works to do more on topic—but my question is, where does one go direct link to read these ADOSH readings of Cordes now?
If you come to Yarnell and you meet volunteer AnnaMarie Lechner at the Senior Community Center- ask her what happen recently to her and if I knew something before she did and told her soon to look for something and she too can confirm I do not ENGAGE in what I see nor tell her details but if it will harm someone I will bring focus to them to be focused if I see something. I aint’ no medium person but yes something since my surgery that went wrong in 2006 changed to my life and I don’t like what happen but it is real…I don’t even like it being tied to me because in my life and history I was tied and platformed front and center in front of thousands as a Gospel singer and since a tot I have been tied to my journey to God so it’s a place I rebuke but it still is shown to my life—
Thanks Joy, I had no doubt you would have pursued it with Bryan for all your worth, I just didn’t want to see anyone else (including you) in as much unjustified trouble as you got into last year – I reckon they went after you because you are local, and with your knowledge and contacts, you must scare people that you will be instrumental in finding the TRUTH..
I also get that that serendipity happens to us all, and no one can explain why. I like to think that we get what we need, not what we want, just at the right time. Just like melons!
Without you Joy doing the ground work with Bryan…well how long would it have taken for the confirmation that there were a lot of LIES in those official reports? Thank you.
And be rest assured, next time I make it across the Atlantic, I’ll be looking to try meet up with as many of you as possible and buy you all beers or tipple (be it alcoholic or not) of your choice, just to add to the campfire feel!
my brother will peak here and text me it was before 2006 surgery because I told him he was going on a cruise and have nine months later a baby and he said he is crazy busy with work & not ready for kids and would never go on cruise but soon after I said it—months later he won a Disney cruise and yes nine months later he had his first born…so I do have tp be straight forward it was before the surgery but not so much—
Otis,
Thank you for this post. Thank you for NOT taking a ‘Trip to Abilene’ and just going along with the flow.
I am NOT convinced that Gary Cordes is a liar on the Yarnell rescues.
I think these old folks’ memories were most likely tainted from the extreme stress of the whole near-death YH Fire incident. Stress can and does adversely affect one’s memory.
Once again, I am NOT convinced.
How about these three recent examples of ‘false memories’ featuring Paul Ryan, Mitt Romney, and Hillary Clinton.
Regarding Paul Ryan, in a radio interview, he reported having done exceptionally well in a marathon which he claimed to have completed in just under three hours, however, a follow-investigation by Runner’s World showed that his actual performance was considerably longer.
A more significant memory lapse occurred with Mitt Romney when he described his strong childhood memory of the Golden Jubilee marking the 50th anniversary of the automobile industry despite the fact that it actually took place nine months before he was born!
And we must remember the Hillary Clinton ‘false memory.’ During the 2008 presidential campaign, she described a visit to Bosnia during the civil war when she faced enemy snipers. Based on the recollections of the others who went with her to Bosnia (including her daughter, Chelsea), none of her vivid recollections of ducking gunfire actually happened. Confronted with this evidence, Senator Clinton denied lying about the incident. “I made a mistake. I HAD A DIFFERENT MEMORY. …”
Dr. Elizabeth Loftus, from the University of CA, Irvine has concluded in describing her research, “we’ve done hundreds of experiments involving thousands of subjects showing that IT’S RELATIVELY EASY TO CHANGE PEOPLE’S MEMORY OF THE DETAILS OF AN EVENT THAT THEY’VE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED.”
Dr. Loftus also stated ““If I’ve learned anything from 40 years of working on these issues, JUST BECAUSE A SUBJECT TELLS YOU THAT THEY HAVE A DETAILED MEMORY THAT’S VERY VIVID, THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT IT’S TRUE.”
So then, it’s very possible that these alleged witnesses to their rescuer being Dan Sullivan or someone else, instead of Gary Cordes, had a ‘different memory’ of what actually occurred on June 30, 2013.
How about the alleged recall and memory of GMHS Brendon McDonough and all the people he has talked to and articles and such that he has read, and the countless interviews he’s been through? I wouldn’t believe a word he says when he claims it to be the truth.
Bryan is not old
first off Bryan Smith is not even a person investigating this fire nor even interested in it and I am sure the man knows his colors of vehicles he was saved in—
plus why would I care if he did or did not save the man—I just was asking every area and there is a few areas that NEED MORE FOCUSED ATTENTION to ask people who were there and that is Helm’s area/DeerTrack and Sesame/Manzinita and Shrine area since the firefighters are not talking I am going to the people…That is my focus this year not to make people feel a doubt on Cordes but to get the real information out from the people.
white from aquamarine are a big difference in color
Bryan for sure said the man had a beard-
Cordes does not
I have a woman I am about to see her photos who lived on Deer Track and maybe in them we will see a vehicle photo captured—or something else—
So SHELF THE NEW NEWS; okay but to doubt it— not able to do because this man is not old and is able to recall that day. He would not state Cordes did not save him— why would he state he didn’t unless he didn’t.
and he remembers that day TOO STRONGLY because the aftermath they lost Pearl Moore—
So shelf the news and it was never to create DOUBT but clarity- get more in person information public.
I am just unturning every stone. I laid low in 2015 but reason I had hired lawyer because this year I am going to be the JACK HAMMER and nail this out…
also this could all be solved by Gary Cordes accepting invite from Bryan Smith to meet the man in person who saved his life.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post
January 14, 2016 at 2:34 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> also this could all be solved by
>> Gary Cordes accepting invite
>> from Bryan Smith to meet the
>> man in person who saved his life.
Ditto for Mr. Dan Sullivan.
If he really did rescue Bryan Smith… why would Dan Sullivan NOT want to meet with him and accept his thanks?
This is also a HUGE ‘gut-check’ moment for Arizona media in general, and AZCENTRAL in particular… since THEY are the ones who now appear to have printed that FALSE story in the first place.
We shall see what happens there.
Joy,
What a stellar idea, that this “could all be solved by Gary Cordes accepting invite from Bryan Smith to meet the man in person who saved his life.”
Grand idea. Cordes retired from Central Yavapai FD last year or even 2014 sometime.
Was Cordes the one, upon being told by (someone?) at the ranch house restaurant parking lot that GM deployed, who said something like, “bullshit, they had plenty of time to get there.”??
Can someone ‘clean up’ that part for me? Thanks,
Woodsman
Yes.
Reply to Woodsman post on
January 14, 2016 at 1:10 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Was Cordes the one, upon being told by (someone?)
>> at the ranch house restaurant parking lot that GM
>> deployed, who said something like, “bullshit, they
>> had plenty of time to get there.”??
>>
>> Can someone ‘clean up’ that part for me? Thanks,
>> On January 14, 2016 at 9:54 am, Marti replied…
>>
>> Yes.
From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ one-and-only ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Gary Cordes, SPGS1 in Yarnell on June 30, 2013
——————————————————-
Q1: Okay. Um, so uh, at, at some point um, air uh, during all of this, um, um, how did you uh, how did you hear of the uh, deployments?
A: That was back when I met with the group uh, before I went in to do the rescues, uh, when I met with Engine 59. It was Engine 59 that told me that they had transmitted over the radio, over air to ground that they had deployed and I, and I, it was Charlie Reyes whose the, whose the engine boss down there and I told him BS, that uh, they didn’t need to deploy ‘cause the safety’s, they were in their safety zone and it was bomb proof and he said no, they never got – made it there, they got cut off. And that’s when I knew obviously something bad had most likely occurred.
Q1: Okay. Um, so there was no, there was no question in your mind though that when, when Eric indicated he was going to the safety zone, he wasn’t talking about the black, he was talking about the, the Helm Ranch?
A: Yes
——————————————————-
At another point in the same interview with Cordes…
——————————————————-
Q1: Uh, he ( Eric Marsh ) tells air attack that he’s going to his designated, pre-designated safety zone…
A: Right.
Q1: …and he doesn’t say where that is, he just says, safety zone?
A: Right.
Q1: And so your assumption is…
A: He had plenty of time to get there and, and he was headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
——————————————————-
Gary Cordes was the ONLY person from the ‘fire command’ ranks at Yarnell who admitted ( in interviews ) that he never had any doubts at all that Granite Mountain was NOT ‘in the safe black’ anymore and that they were, in fact, heading towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
The original SAIR report had this this to say about whether anyone really KNEW Granite Mountain had, indeed, ‘left the black’ and whether anyone really KNEW where they were going…
On PDF page 9 of the original SAIR document…
——————————————————–
Although much communication occurred among crews throughout the day, few people understood Granite Mountain’s intentions, movements, and location, once they left the black. The Team believes this is due to brief, informal, and vague radio transmissions and talkarounds that can occur during wildland fire communications. Based on radio conversations, Operations and other resources had concluded the Granite Mountain IHC was located in the black, near the ridge top where they had started that morning. This resulted in confusion about the crew’s actual location at the time of search and rescue.
——————————————————–
** Key phrase…
“few people understood Granite Mountain’s intentions, movements, and location, once they left the black.”
Keyword: FEW ( people ).
As in… SOME PEOPLE ( like Cordes ) DID KNOW their ‘intentions, movements and location… once they left the black”, and the SAIT KNEW that these SOME PEOPLE ( like Cordes ) KNEW it. They just didn’t want to talk about that because it didn’t fit their pre-determined narrative.
That piece of ‘SAIR speak’ is right up there with them also saying they had ALMOST no evidence of direct communications with Granite Mountain.
ALMOST? That still means they DID have evidence of ‘direct communications’ with Granite Mountain during their alleged ’30 minute blackout’… but they didn’t want to talk about that, either, for the same reasons. Evidence like that didn’t ‘fit’ their pre-determined narrative.
** Key phrase…
“Based on radio conversations, Operations and other resources had concluded the Granite Mountain IHC was located in the black, near the ridge top where they had started that morning.”
So even in the same paragraph… the SAIT decided to ignore their own statement that SOME PEOPLE KNEW exactly where GM was going, and they finish that same paragraph with a carte-blanche “Operations and other resources had concluded they were in the black, near the ridge top”.
That was NEVER where SPGS1 Gary Cordes thought they were, in the timeframe in question.
Gary Cordes met with OPS2 Paul Musser face-to-face there on the side of Highway 89 AFTER the radio communications that Cordes mentions above to ADOSH which convinced HIM that Granite was, in fact, “on their way to the Boulder Springs Ranch” in that timeframe.
We’re supposed to believe Cordes didn’t mention this to Musser, when the actual PURPOSE of their face-to-face on Highway 89 was to determine ‘who was where’ and what ‘resources’ could be brought to bear in Yarnell?
Yea, right.
Reply to Marti Reed post on
January 14, 2016 at 12:32 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I. Just. Can’t. Even. I mean really. WHY?????????
>>
>> I’m completely mind-boggled.
As I (reluctantly) mentioned down below… one of the ONLY reasons I can think of for Gary Cordes to be sitting there telling ADOSH he performed a rescue that he did NOT do… is because it was DECIDED sometime beforehand ( by some individuals? ) that he SHOULD do that.
In other words… someone decided it was better for Gary Cordes to just take credit for BOTH of those rescues ( whether he did one or both of them or not ) just so that ASGS Dan Sullivan wouldn’t show up ‘on the radar’ as another person that needed to be ‘interviewed’.
There is really no doubt that a certain effort was being made to HIDE the fact that ANY Prescott National Forest employees where ever THERE working in Yarnell that day. I’m talking about Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell as well.
There are times ( when reading the SAIT YIN notes ), with all the various mis-spellings of THEIR names in that document whenever they were mentioned… that that might have actually been done on purpose just to make it HARD to tell they were even THERE.
So the same might be true for this Dan Sullivan guy.
Someone decided, for some reason, it was best to try and HIDE that fact that any Prescott National Forest employees were ever even THERE in Yarnell… to prevent anyone ( as in, ADOSH ) from even trying to ‘interview’ them.
They succeeded.
NO ONE from the ‘Prescott National Forest’ who was there working in Yarnell the day of the tragedy was EVER interviewed ADOSH.
ADOSH didn’t know to REQUEST those interviews because the SAIT did a bang-up job of hiding the fact that they WERE there.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> So we’ve got Gary Cordes:
>>
>> 1) Telling Marsh and GM that Boulder Springs Ranch was
>> some kind of a larger-than-it-was “bomb-proof” safety
>> zone.
Even almost 3 months AFTER the incident… Gary Cordes was still over-estimating the SIZE of the ‘safety zone’ ( in his ADOSH interview ) by more than EIGHT TO TEN TIMES.
It was only 3 to 3 and 1/2 acres, max… and Cordes was telling ADOSH it was upwards of 30 acres.
A = Gary Cordes, SPGS1 at the Yarnell Hill Fire…
—————————————————–
A: It’s a very large uh, 20 to 30 acre open site uh, that was real cleaned out and it was pretty – it was bomb proof.
—————————————————–
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 2) Not giving that same “information” to Blue Ridge.
Correct. Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown had NO IDEA where the Boulder Springs Ranch even was, or that it had been established as the ‘pre-determined safety zone’ that morning ( by Cordes ) for Granite Mountain and any other crew working the same area.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 3) Co-masterminding (with Eric Marsh?) a Last Minute
>> Hail Mary Plan (as the fire was reversing direction) to
>> put in a Dozer Line off of the top of Glen Illah to the
>> driveway of Boulder Springs Ranch (most likely).
From TFLDT(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log…
————————————————–
1445 ( 2:45 PM )
Met with Structure Group 2 ( Gary Cordes ). Plan to use TF2 ( Esquibel’s Task Force 2 ) resources to tie dozer line to rock outcrop on Mountain west of Shrine Road in Harper Canyon.
Blue Ridge IHC AND Granite Mountain IHC to improve dozer line.
1632 ( 4:32 PM )
St Group 1 ( Cordes ) request (1) engine to Boulder Spgs. ( and also says to make sure Granite Mountain gets out of there safely ).
————————————————–
From Cory Ball’s Unit Log…
——————————————————
1600
BRIHC one ( Brian Frisby ) informs Structure Group One ( Gary Cordes ) they are pushing engines everyone out of subdivision.
Structure group one ( Gary Cordes ) assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell ( the Glen Ilah area ).
Acquire ATV ( lime-yellow ATV from Yarnell Fire Department ).
Travel into subdivision ( Glen Ilah ) back to Dozer line.
——————————————————
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 4) Apparently, not saying a word to anybody,
>> while the “rescue attempt” was being conceived,
>> in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant,
>> of where he basically figured GM was.
Nope. ‘Apparently’ not. Gary Cordes makes NO mention in his ADOSH interview of ever telling ANYONE who was trying to figure out where to start looking for Granite Mountain what he was so SURE of that he said “Bullshit” to Captain Reyes… in that same parking lot… just feet away from those same FFs trying to desperately figure out where to start looking for Granite Mountain.
At that moment… for all anyone knew… more than half those men COULD have been still more than half-alive… and there is no evidence Gary Cordes made any attempt to help anyone try to figure out where to start looking for them.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 5) Claiming that he rescued these two people when,
>> according to one of them, it wasn’t him that did that,
>> but another fire-fighter that turns out to be the
>> fricken Air Support Group Supervisor Dan Sullivan.
See above. The only thing that comes to mind ( to me ) at the moment is that he was TOLD to take credit for something he didn’t do just to try and hide that fact that Prescott National Forest employee Dan Sullivan was even THERE in Yarnell that day.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 6) Accepting a big-time award for “doing that” which
>> he didn’t do, and Dan Sullivan hasn’t said a word
>> about any of this.
>>
>> I am completely mystified.
The simple solution is for someone to INTERVIEW Dan Sullivan.
But actually… that might not be so simple.
At this point, it might be easier to get another interview with “El Chapo” that it would be for anyone to get Dan Sullivan to say a word about any of this.
I wonder if Sean Penn is free?
I hired a lawyer to discuss some areas-
I understand WWTKTT stance but I understand how a comment I made here ended up in court so I hired a top EXPENSIVE lawyer to go over some areas and my consult is soon- *I need to know legally what I can or cannot say—I am not ignoring you WWTKTT but avoiding a repeat in court—k
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 13, 2016 at 3:27 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I hired a lawyer to discuss some areas-
I think that’s a good idea, Joy, given what you’ve already had to go through.
If you had had one representing you back in January, 2015, I don’t think even that original ‘Injunction against Harassment’ would have stayed in place. It didn’t even meet Arizona’s own criteria for filing one in the first place, and Darrell Willis’ ( unrelated ) ‘hearsay’ evidence would have never been ‘admitted’ into the proceedings, etc., etc.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I understand WWTKTT stance
My only ‘stance’ was that after seeing this ‘new’ comment from you…
>> On January 12, 2016 at 7:26 pm, joy a collura said…
>>
>> I know more and saw footage and that in my humble opinion should be
>> spoken public first hand not by me.
…and just in the interest of ‘shaking some trees’ like what was happening before the holidays… I was just WONDERING if there was any way you could just DESCRIBE for the rest of us these things you say you ‘know’ and have ‘seen’ in even the most GENERIC of terms… WITHOUT getting anywhere near any ‘legal trouble’.
I was NEVER suggesting you get anywhere NEAR any ‘legal trouble’. No way.
You’ve had enough of that regarding this crazy incident already.
If there really is no way you can even just DESCRIBE these things you seem to ‘know’ and have ‘seen’ WITHOUT getting into ‘legal trouble’… then I totally understand.
But I still just thought it didn’t hurt to ask (again).
It remains very confusing for the rest of us here to even keep wondering WHAT these ‘things’ might be… and what they even *might* tell us about what really happened.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> I need to know legally what I can or cannot say.
Of course.
>> I am not ignoring you WWTKTT but avoiding a repeat in court
Again… I totally understand. I was just asking, since you reminded us ( again ) that there ARE these ‘things’ that you seem to ‘know’ and have ‘seen’.
Yes it was kangaroo court for sure and since Joy had no lawyer the judge did injustice and allowed the injunction. Pitiful at best and cronies at worst. At that time we could not afford an attorney–reason Joy did not win the case.
Sonny…. there should have never even BEEN an injunction issued OR a ‘hearing’.
The original complaint didn’t even meet the ‘minimum’ criteria established by Arizona Law for even ‘filing’ such a complaint in the first place… with regards to there having to be MULTIPLE ( serious ) incidents taking place prior to the filing.
Especially since the ‘defendant’ had already put herself ‘out there’ as a PUBLIC FIGURE serving on a PUBLIC Arizona Board and the only contact person listed for a PUBLIC Not-for profit organization.
The ‘trip-wire’ for ‘harassment’ complaints increases geometrically for any such PUBLIC FIGURE.
It’s one of the by-products of BECOMING a ‘PUBLIC FIGURE’.
You have to then realize that people ARE going to ( and have the RIGHT to ) ‘talk about you’.
Sorry… brain fart up above.
I meant to say ‘plaintiff’ where I said ‘defendant’.
Paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
—————————————-
Especially since the PLAINTIFF had already put herself ‘out there’ as a PUBLIC FIGURE serving on a PUBLIC Arizona Board and the only contact person listed for a PUBLIC Not-for profit organization.
—————————————-
This whole situation called the Yarnell Hill Fire Incident has given plenty of brain farcs to individuals the world over. I am aghast at all the weaving of lies apparant with the Yarnell fire debacle that makes us either laugh or cry. Sometimes our minds do not know what reaction is appropriate and results in a farc. Even the best get that if you do WTKTT.
What are not brain farcs include the many Yarnell residents unhappy with how this fire was tackled or not tackled. I am certainly glad those fire gods were never in charge of my underground mining jobs. I”d likely be one of the 19 or 74 today directly or indirectly dead because of the fire or their attempts to put it out. When will they admit to their debacle and hand out fuck up awards instead of fireman of the year shit or how great thou art bull shit.
Come on people, where can you really brag on your saving lives or doing a good job when 19 +74 are dead due to your efforts.
WTK said
The fireline ‘blew through’ that retardant line ( like it wasn’t even there ) circa 3:41 PM, just about 1 minute before OPS2 Paul Musser would call DIVSA Marsh on the radio.
I have always wondered exactly how quickly the fire went through the line of retardant. Will you provide whatever evidence you have that the (dry?) retardant line was breached quickly, and had no slowing effect on the fire.
If the dry line of retardant did slow the progression of the fire, did that give the GMH the impression that a fresh line of retardant would have equal or greater effect on the fire?
WTK. Do you have any idea exactly how many aircraft or how many gallons of retardant were dropped on the YHF between the time we hear “Air support down there” and the time of deployment?
As we know, there was no retardant lines placed to protect Glen Isla or Yarnell in that timeframe
WTK said
OPS1 Todd Abel identified his OWN VOICE in that Robert Caldwell video… but then would have us believe he doesn’t even remember having that entire conversation with his DIVSA.
Thanks WTKTT
Yes the fire retardant ;had little effect on this fire. Consider that the winds were fierce at 45 mph evidenced by the trees whipping in videos. We had embers landing on us as we went down the Yarnell Hill on 89 some mile or more from the fire. The south end of Glen Isla was on fire with a mile or so of houses blocking the wind–just look at Bob Cramer’s house right against Hwy 89. That is the very estreme end of Glen Isla where houses were selectively chosen by embers. Now a narrow band of retardant had little effect on this type fire as far as Yarnell and Glen Isla were concerned. Pavement and defenseable space had more effect.
However we had hoped they could drop retardant on the men for the chance it might have saved them. With the wind laying down flames out to 100 ft. and more and the extreme temperatures with embers and smoke shooting out from the end of the flames one has to wonder if even retardant would have sufficed to save them.
More evidence of the flame laying down is seen in the old grader. It looked to Donut to be a clearing large enough for a good place to lay down his safety blanket. Yet the tires on both sides were burned off and the bottom plate that was old and rusty had turned blue from the flame. Those flames last some time from manzanita so you can read Morrison and Wooten, scientists who specialize in wild fire studies. These wild fires in manzanita such as we had give off the energy of a Heroshima type atomic bomb every 15 minutes. WTKTT is correct under the conditions we were witnessing. that day.
Too bad the fire gods did not have this type knowledge in considering the Yarnell Lightening Strike if indeed it were that. I have searched for that point and in any fire investigation I would have thought the first thing would be to locate the exact point of origin and take photos for proof. Any old cowboy can identify a lightening strike, but my efforts have been futile–and the co ordinates given for origin are way off at least 2 miles as far as I can determine. Now I am no sleuth but I certainly would have liked to have seen photos of the place of origin.
Lightening was striking that day, but there are photos of two quads in the area also. Another thing a smart arsonist might think a lightening storm could cover his tracks. Perhaps the investigators would consider all these things and why the point of origin would be thoroughly investigated as would any individuals in the area at the time of the fire. That is how they caught the arsonist fire man in California who had set so many fires. He had been in the area and had left a cigarette pack with matches rubber banded to the pack for a fire starter. So you see both details were covered there to catch him.
I believe Ted Putnam nails a forest ranger for arson in the Mann Gulch Fire that killed 13 wild land fire fighters, but then I have not read his investigative document or book yet, something I hope to get when he is finished.
Sonny—– Mann Gulch was definitely started by Lighting it was so remote on the Forest that they sent Smoke jumpers. I think there were severial other fires on that forest that were started by the same storm.
Tanker drops are ineffective in winds of 20 to 40 MPH the retardant is spread and the heat dissipates it. Putting a drop on the crew would have required less wind and Smoke even if they had the crews location. They just do not fly thru heavy smoke and are grounded in winds 20+.
Lightning fires in brush are very hard to pin point the Point of origin. Some times they hit Rocks and sparks fly in all directions.
Bob, we need to read Dr. Ted Putnam’s report on that before jumping to conclusions in either direction. I don’t know when he will get his report out and his report will likely be referring to a second fire started after the main fire.
Yes Sonny a Second fire was started by the Crew Foreman for a safe area
the crew did not listen and ran up hill being trapped and burned by the main fire and possibly the burn out that in turn save the Foreman and could have saved the rest if they had not panicked.
It was determined his fire was never a factor in the burn over but the main fire that overran the crew the burn out just became part of it.
This all lead to the training and carrying of extra Fusee’s for almost all the years after and became the Burning out of a safety zone working with the fire in the right types of fuel. to protect yourself.
His burn out was in grass and was about 1.5 Ac. before the main fire hit it
He laid down in the burn and survived. The rest of the crew could have done the same but panicked. None of them had ever seen that tactic before and did not know what he was trying to do.
It would be a hard sell to prove otherwise after almost 70 years. This was another main fire that ran up a mountain from below fast and considered a blow up. The crew was moving down to the fire from their jump area when the fire made its run.
Read John Maclean’s Mann Gulch which his Father studied and talked with the survivors and it got put into print.
It is a really factual book that covers the events. I believe a training movie was made as well. It was a training discussion for 20 or 30 years.
Yes Bob, I am glad you posted about that fire. It was the second fire as you say that trapped the men as I learned from Dr. Ted Putnam. Ted had made at least five trips to the area they died and has interviewed survivors and their relatives over a period of years. He has had his heart into discovering the truth on this one and knows all the intricate details probably better than anyone. I hope to be one of the first on his list to get his report or book on that particular fire.
Something about Ted I admire. He, like you, is not in an investigation for the dollar such as the book authors are. Nor does he have cronies to cow tow to. He marches to a different drum and looks only for the truth of a matter as the evidence shows–not sensationalism or questionable statements that bring in the audience and dollars. He has a true concern for the truth and how its proof of saving future firefighting lives.
With John McClean, Dr. Ted told imformed me that he had corrected John on certain statements McClean had made in his book, but those statements were never corrected or retracted. John had used second hand information to write those statements instead of going to the horses mouth. Now he is relying much on Holly Niel for information.
There is too much suspect information out there. Just like the article written up in a Phoenix news paper about Cordes saving Pearl and Bryon there. He never did according to Bryon but he even received awards of his touted wonderful efforts at the Yarnell Hill fire. All this shit would be laughable except 19 fire fighters are dead, and we see over 74 out of 645 population dead since the fire and millions in tax money squandered due to likely the worse fire fighting effort in American History.
It appears that the fire fighting people have gone overboard to make a debacle look like a shining example of great firefighting. Jesus drop me another bottle of Crown Royal out of the sky. The bullshit has gotten boot top high.
Sonny,
“The bullshit has gotten boot top high.”
You got that right. Some current and former wff’s don’t seem to like it that regular people have taken a peek (actually a real hard look) into our world. I think it has made some very uncomfortable. It’s the only explanation I can come up with to attribute some of the reactions here. Keep up the good work. It impresses me how well many non-wff’s are understanding ‘the business.’ Now of course, I will be accused of being a turn-coat by even suggesting some of you are doing great work (being a bonifide wff myself) – actually I’ve already been cleverly indirectly threatened and directly discredited. (to the magnitude that the best course of action was to delete a temporary email address so I didn’t have to read the bullshit.)
I’m an exception to the rule, a rouge. I can’t be intimidated by the fire gods or their minions. I once told a regional forester that the main problem with his region was lack of leadership…….I worked in his region at the time. That, in fact, DID NOT lead to a stellar evaluation that year! It was the truth as I saw it and improvement was more important to me than a promotion. That’s how I roll.
We are seeing some effects of the ‘thin green’ line.
Stay the course and continue to get better!
Everybody – stay the course! Why should it matter if there’s ‘nothing to the story’ to continue to strive for the whole story?
You’re a good old guy, Sonny.
Woodsman
“You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.”
Winston Churchill
You don’t have enemies here Robert 2. Welcome to the advancement of fire fighting safety and helping the dumb citizen cowboy like “Sonny” Tex Gilligan understand the rudiments of firefighting and how 19 good young men could die and half a town burn and more citizens die because of that and retardant dumps and how tax payers don’t mind millions squandered in the mean time. I am writing like Joy now. She never slows up.
RTS,
I always liked that WC quote.
I may provoke you because I disagree with you. I may piss you off because I won’t back down. But, I’m exactly what you looked for back when you were filling your squad boss and crew boss positions.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
WTF over?
You do NOT provoke me and you do NOT piss me off, nor anything you post here.
I know that you are just the type of person I would hire as a supervisor.
NO worries. Chill out. We’re good.
Woodsman, do stay in there. By fortune and luck I have been able to rub shoulders with some of the finest men in the fire fighting profession. And by percentages likely 90% make the grade. Many of those are on this site and ranke high on any firefighting list and include people with decades of fire fighting experience. Like most, people like yourself, Bob Powers, Gary Olsen, Wayne Niel, Dr. Ted Putnam, do not even have to be acknowledged for their expertise and knowledge in how to fight a wild fire. They are not afraid to attend this site and certainly will correct me or anyone else when they believe their expressions are off base.
Best I can tell only the cowards refrain from this site. Perhaps they have fear of jobs, and no one want to jeopardize that. But the ninnys that took awards for a good job for the Yarnell fire are among that class as far as I am concerned. Let them come defend themselves.
If I had done the job I had seen here or even had to clean up what someone else that was left bad, I could never in good conscience take any type of award. But then take my opinions as only a humble citizen. I admire the man on the line and a number of the bosses-namely those I have seen writing here. They have the experience and know how to tell it like it is.
Sonny,
I’m not going anywhere unless I want to…..or I screw up and get myself ‘uninvited’ from IM by Mr. Dougherty.
Beware of ‘experts.’ Sometimes what you really need is an ‘un-expert.’
Woodsman
Reply to calvin post on January 13, 2016 at 3:49 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> WTK said
>>
>> The fireline ‘blew through’ that retardant line ( like it wasn’t even there )
>> circa 3:41 PM, just about 1 minute before OPS2 Paul Musser would call
>> DIVSA Marsh on the radio.
>>
>> I have always wondered exactly how quickly the fire went through the line
>> of retardant. Will you provide whatever evidence you have that the (dry?)
>> retardant line was breached quickly, and had no slowing effect on the fire.
calvin… just letting you know I saw this ( and the other questions above ) and I’m not ignoring it. I’m working on a good response.
In the meantime… you might want to check out FBAN Byron Kimball’s ADOSH interview transcript.
Byron Kimball saw, with his own eyes and from a good ‘vantage point’…. what happened when the fireline reached that VLAT DC10 retardant line that was first laid in by Air Attack Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark when they first arrived over the fire ( right around NOON ).
The first VLAT drops that day were attempting to help Darrell Willis ‘save’ the Double Bar-A Ranch.
They put a pretty good line of retardant between it and the ( at that time ) still north-moving fireline.
It made no difference… given the fuel type and conditions… and Byron Kimball explains ( in his professional opinion ) why in his ADOSH interview.
He SAW the fireline march right over that retardant line with his own eyes.
maybe catch something in the stories or photos here:
http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/our_stories.html
That’s the page where you can read Peeples Valley Firefighter Bob Brandon’s story, in his own words, with no ‘media person’ interpreting anything.
It’s also the place where Bob Brandon describes how he and the other Peeples Valley Firefighters were ‘interviewed’ within 48 hours of the incident by some mysterious ‘investigators’ ( the SAIT would not even be formed for another 48 hours )… and those ‘investigators’ not only took their full despositions but also copies of photos ( and videos? ) from all of their cameras and smartphones.
None of that ‘evidence’ has ever seen the light of day… even though several valid FOIA requests were made for (quote) “ALL material involved in the Yarnell Hill Investigation”.
WTKKT–Maybe I have missed much, but I am glad you attend to Donut. I see him as a farce to the fire fighting profession dwelling off the sadness of the loss of his fellows. I have the world’s smallest fiddle for him–my heart bleads for him and his sorrow. But in real life he has nothing to add to saving lives of any fireman, and his statements are to be taken with a grain of salt. He has withheld crucial information, knows less than I do about safety while I am a stupid citizen, and has consistently lied about what really happened. I have never bothered to even look at one of his videos and think he does well that anyone does.
You know Michael Collins maybe should be my hero in an Irish way since we are Dublinites. But Michael forgot Northern Ireland, his neighbor. He signed away Nothrern Ireland for the benefit of the south. King George, the Engish tyrant was elated since he had now turned North against south. Marti mentioned divide and conquer. The English tyrants (those in charge) are wise in their methods. But perhaps Michael got his just due-a bullet in the head. He thought that appeasing the bully would eventually gain independence was an error. It only diveded–yet has never conquered in the case of the Irish.
When you know the facts, then go with them without division. The liars will take their due, and the effort will save many. It is sad that we see what we see, but even if truth hurts, it in the final will difine us and there will be no reason for awards or accolades or recognitions. We are what truth defines.
what’s new on this?
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/appella/1CA%5CCV%5CCV150349.PDF
**
** TFLD(t) TYSON ESQUIBEL SAYS HE DROVE BOB AND RUTH HART UP TO
** THE ICP IN PEEPLES VALLEY AFTER THEY WERE ‘RESCUED’ IN GLEN ILAH.
Reply to joy a collura post on January 12, 2016 at 7:26 pm
>> joy a collura said…
>>
>> I know more and saw footage and that in my humble opinion should be
>> spoken public first hand not by me.
Totally understand, Joy… but in the spirit of ‘shaking trees’ once more… is there ANYTHING you CAN tell us about what seems to be this ‘terrible secret’ that you keep ‘mentioning’ and that you seem to already know?
Can you at least give us a GENERAL IDEA what this ‘terrible secret’ seems to be?
>> joy a collura also said…
>>
>> I will go to Hart family next and see if Gary Cordes saved them.
There is now ‘more’ to that ‘Bob and Ruth Hart’ rescue story you might want to try and verify with them.
Let me explain…
Once again… from Gary Cordes’ handwritten Unit Log…
—————————————————————————-
1620 – Entered subdivision of Glen Ilah removing 4 stranded
elderly on several trips in and out. Turned over to ambulance for TX.
—————————————————————————-
NOTICE that Gary Cordes seems to be implying that he turned BOTH of the 2 elderly couples over to ‘ambulance for TX’. That becomes important in a moment because, even if he actually did have anything to do with either of the TWO rescues, the ‘turned over to ambulance’ part does NOT appear to be what happened in the case of ‘Bob and Ruth Hart’.
And, once again, here is the way Gary Cordes told BOTH of the ‘rescue stories’ that he was taking credit for ( and would be given the Arizona Wildfire Academy “Firefighter of the Year for 2013” award for ) during his one-and-only ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013.
I’m going to FIRST print his recounting of the SECOND rescue ( supposedly Bryan Smith and his cousin Pearl Moore )… and then print his recounting of his FIRST rescue ( supposedly Bob and Ruth Hart ) after that one…
————————————————————————————————–
** RESCUE 2 ( OF 2 ) – ( Supposedly Byran Smith and Pearl Moore )…
Went back to north and decided to make one more run into the Manzanita area up in there. Came across a gentleman waving me down in the smoke, uh, told him to get into the vehicle… He informed me he had a, he had a uh, handicapped uh, disable neighbor, elderly woman who was – he was trying to carry her out and he couldn’t, uh, he was unable to carry her any farther. I asked him where she was, he pointed uh, on a road that was fairly unattainable, all of the structures on the north side were on fire. So I made an attempt to go down that road and uh, he advised me to be careful so I wouldn’t run her over. She was in the road, and she was. I picked her up, got her into the vehicle… got her over, put her in an ambulance at the uh, back at the Ranch Restaurant.
————————————————————————————————–
Thanks to you and Mr. Bryan Smith… we can now say for sure that Gary Cordes is LYING to ADOSH here… and he did NOT actually perform this particular rescue at all.
It was someone ELSE ( not yet identified ) who was driving an all-aquamarine forestry greenish/bluish 4-door SUV/Suburban style vehicle… the same color used for vehicles from the Prescott National Forest ( or any US National Forest ).
That being said… notice in even Cordes’ own account that he SAYS he ‘put her in an ambulance’.
That becomes important in a moment.
————————————————————————————————–
** RESCUE 1 ( OF 2 ) – ( Supposedly Bob and Ruth Hart )…
At one point I drove up Manzanita Trail uh, structures on both sides of the road were on fire and I saw an elderly couple walking down the road and there was almost zero visibility in there and, and uh, with the smoke laying in there 40 plus mile an hour winds and two elderly people holding hands walking out in their pajamas, and um, so I pulled up, they asked me to uh, if they could please get a ride and I told them to get in the vehicle very abruptly and uh, assisted the elderly woman into the vehicle and the elderly gentleman got in and, and I took them back out to the Ranch Restaurant um, dropped them off with the crews and I re-entered the subdivision.
————————————————————————————————–
Notice NOW that Gary Cordes does NOT say ( for this first of the two rescues ) that he put the two people ( presumably Bob and Ruth Hart ) in an AMBULANCE at all.
For this FIRST rescue… Cordes only says he “dropped them off with the crews”.
That actually MATCHES one of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log entries… and Tyson Esquibel CONFIRMS ( via both first names AND their address ) that these 2 people were Bob and Ruth Hart.
Esquibel says that ‘Bob and Ruth Hart’ were given to HIM… and that HE is the one who then DROVE THEM TO THE ICP ( and did NOT put them in an ambulance at all )…
From TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log…
————————————————————————-
1840 ( 6:40 PM )
leave safety zone, resources to save structures on Hwy 89 from cafe to N of downtown.
(2) evacuees transported to ICP by myself. Bob + Ruth ( Hodge ), 22680 W. Manzinita.
————————————————————————-
So Tyson Esquibel might have gotten Bob and Ruth Hart’s LAST NAME wrong in his Unit Log ( he wrote ‘Hodge’ instead of ‘Hart’ )… but he copied down the address that Bob and Ruth Hart seemed to have given him exactly correct.
22680 W. Manzanita was, in fact, Bob and Ruth Hart’s address in Glen Ilah on june 30, 2013.
The center of the HOUSE at 22680 W. Manzanita, Glen Ilah, Arizona is exactly here…
Decimal Latitude, Longitude: 34.220777, -112.761000
Bob and Ruth Hart sold that house in 2014 to ‘Joel Simmons and June Carol’, but on June 30, 2013 that is where they were living.
From the Yavapa County Tax Assessor’s online PUBLIC database at…
http://gis.yavapai.us/v4/
—————————————————————————-
Yavapai County Parcel Number: 203-03-010
Street Address: 22680 W. Manzanita, Glen Ilah, AZ
Owner(s) as of 01/06/2014: Simmons Joel Lane & June Carol RS
Owner(s) as of 05/29/1998: Hart Robert L, Hart Ruth M, Hart Family Trust
—————————————————————————-
So if you talk to the ‘Hart’ family… see if they can CONFIRM this part of both Gary Cordes’ story and Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log.
Whether or not it was Gary Cordes in his red-and-white Central Yavapai command vehicle ( with camper top and flat light bar on top ) rescuing Bob and Ruth Hart… according to Tyson Esquibel… they were NOT put in an ambulance.
According to Tyson Esquibel… Bob and Ruth Hart rode up to Peeples Valley in HIS large yellow and-white vehicle with camper-top that said GLENDALE FIRE on the side of it ( which is seen there in the RHR parking lot in many of Tom Story’s photos ).
And what happened after THAT… we still don’t know.
YOU SAID:
Totally understand, Joy… but in the spirit of ‘shaking trees’ once more… is there ANYTHING you CAN tell us about what seems to be this ‘terrible secret’ that you keep ‘mentioning’ and that you seem to already know?
MY REPLY:
I have mentioned it WWTKTT—if people go back from the start and really read my comments from day one—I have dropped seeds but I won’t be direct because it is not my position not with people out there who have know problem dropping my ass in court over comments here—come in person and sit down with me but hell no—-ain’t setting myself for court part two—when I do not have the documents to prove it—but I do know there is missing elements and I will stand by that like RTS and Bob stand by their views-
know problem…NO problem I meant
THIS IS A WRITTEN TRUE ACCOUNT OF THE RESCUE BUT WHO RESCUED THEM? CAN CORDES COME MEET BRYAN SMITH AND CONFIRM THAT?
ACCOUNT STATED:
Went back to north and decided to make one more run into the Manzanita area up in there. Came across a gentleman waving me down in the smoke, uh, told him to get into the vehicle… He informed me he had a, he had a uh, handicapped uh, disable neighbor, elderly woman who was – he was trying to carry her out and he couldn’t, uh, he was unable to carry her any farther. I asked him where she was, he pointed uh, on a road that was fairly unattainable, all of the structures on the north side were on fire. So I made an attempt to go down that road and uh, he advised me to be careful so I wouldn’t run her over. She was in the road, and she was. I picked her up, got her into the vehicle… got her over, put her in an ambulance at the uh, back at the Ranch Restaurant.
WWTKTT- I am going to Jim’s tomorrow and I will see if they are around—ok.
Than I will confirm that rescue account word by word-
and ** RESCUE 1 ( OF 2 ) – ( Supposedly Bob and Ruth Hart )…
At one point I drove up Manzanita Trail uh, structures on both sides of the road were on fire and I saw an elderly couple walking down the road and there was almost zero visibility in there and, and uh, with the smoke laying in there 40 plus mile an hour winds and two elderly people holding hands walking out in their pajamas, and um, so I pulled up, they asked me to uh, if they could please get a ride and I told them to get in the vehicle very abruptly and uh, assisted the elderly woman into the vehicle and the elderly gentleman got in and, and I took them back out to the Ranch Restaurant um, dropped them off with the crews and I re-entered the subdivision.
That actually MATCHES one of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log entries… and Tyson Esquibel CONFIRMS ( via both first names AND their address ) that these 2 people were Bob and Ruth Hart.
so maybe we should ask Tyson WHO gave the couple to him?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 12, 2016 at 9:52 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> That actually MATCHES one of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log
>> entries… and Tyson Esquibel CONFIRMS ( via both first names
>> AND their address ) that these 2 people were Bob and Ruth Hart.
>>
>> so maybe we should ask Tyson WHO gave the couple to him?
Certainly stands to reason that HE would KNOW… doesn’t it?
It’s a mystery why he also didn’t name that person in his Unit Log entry.
you got mail.
Joel Simmons and June Carol’, but on June 30, 2013 that is where they were living.—
they did that because Joel and June lost their home in the fire-
You would think Matthew would mention the save in his article when he interviewed them—
http://graphics.latimes.com/yarnell/
By MATTHEW TEAGUE
JUNE 22, 2014 | YARNELL, ARIZ.
Ruth Hart noticed it seemed awfully dark outside.
In her slippers, she stepped into the living room and saw a single orange light, like the tip of a lit cigarette, dance past the window. Strange.
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She stepped outside, in her nightgown, and saw another one. An ember. “Something has caught fire,” she thought.
Inside, Bob was thirsty. The air in Yarnell was so dry this time of year, and he liked to drink a glass of water before bed. In his pajamas, he moved haltingly toward the kitchen until he reached the threshold. There he saw it: a glow outside the window. Something was burning in the garden.
They met each other inside.
Ruth grabbed a bit of money, in case they needed to stay somewhere for the night. They shuffled into the garage, where Bob helped her into his Honda Ridgeline truck.
He slid behind the steering wheel, and when they pulled into the open air, the smoke was so thick, it seemed as though someone had dripped tar onto his windshield.
He knew a ditch lay to the right of their driveway, so he edged to the left, and drove though a grove of manzanita burning in their yard. Their white metal fence drooped, melting in the heat.
By the time they reached the end of the driveway Bob was completely disoriented. He drifted too far to the left and wound up across the street on a neighbor’s property. A steel pipe there, sticking up from the ground, got jammed into the guts of the truck, and the vehicle came to a halt.
Bob tried to open his door and met an inferno. The heat was like a physical blow that knocked him back into the truck. He closed the door, and they sat for a while. The truck’s air conditioner felt so cool on their faces.
I just emailed the journalist questions if he interviewed the Harts or a firefighter? etc…
let you know if I get reply.
Thanky you… Joy… and YES… I have seen that article and the fact that he then NEVER mentions the END of that ‘story’ ( and how Bob and Ruth Hart actually got OUT of that predicament they were in ) has always seemed very, very odd.
It’s almost as if he DID ‘write the end’ of that story…. but some editor came along and told him to ‘take that part out’.
It’s just bizarre that he would go into such detail and then never bother to FINISH the story and report how they actually got OUT of there.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/09/21-videos-show-chaos-surrounding-yarnell-hill-fire-deaths/18763511/
has aquamarine vehicles in this link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6XlX1IISTg
3:42 and 3:51 of 5:12 was all I saw in that procession link but not it. keep looking
I will show this video to Bryan—
I think I found it.
5:37 out 7:52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCfqkN3r3T4
license plate appears to say A 338729
side note. family of mine recently reading here and hearing me share about our family on here…it is hard to see some family more focused to not even saying sorry for your loss but are wondering about other areas and as you read on IM I got one inquisitive red flagged type thinking—my dad was simple. He helped engineered the NY twin towers back in the 60s and he loved his beer and he drank on the job with alot of other men— it was how the times were–The Chase Tower (formerly known as Valley Center and Bank One Center) in Phoenix, Arizona, is the tallest building in the state of Arizona. My dad also was part of the engineering of that too in the early 70’s- He was an officer of Joe Arpaio’s setup— and where I learned how different the world is— and how people FALSELY accept awards and accolades and show the media falsehoods because the very man over at the hotel on Van Buren who took an award for saving a life almost took mine one year in the most vile violent way with others so I know and have a different hawk eye view—yet the monster sat on stage with my father as my father got an award too. It’s a bullshit world—I should be in charge of WHO gets awards—not just bs to get vacations, better position within the company and whole bunch of bs—so maybe WWTKTT we are awaiting these others to SPEAK UP but maybe just maybe I will have my breaking point and start naming off and shake that “cheese and cracker” tree—sorry but it angers me to see those procession videos and the men are not here to tell RTS or Bob or others their side of things…ok so back to my pops—after my mother left him to head back East with the kids it ruined my dad and never recovered and when the 911 happened and the towers crumbled and people we knew were no longer—that was hard—We all cannot GO FORWARD when a trauma or tragedy happens —we can put one foot in the front of the other but you ever see the walking dead show—I seen zombies on there with one foot in front of the other so some of us may look like we went FORWARD with one foot in front of the other but until the day people start sharing more many of us cannot…
should of never happened.
Joy:
SHOW THIS VIDEO (from 2014) TO BRYAN.
It has the DAN SULLIVAN we are talking about in it. I have set it to start at the point (6:29) where Dan starts speaking.
Day 7 – Assayii Lake Fire “largest” fire on Navajo Reservation
https://youtu.be/0dKzc3c7L0I?t=6m29s
“”The winds finally started breaking yesterday, and we were just about able to get all our aircraft in the air,” SWIMT 3 Air Operations Branch Director Dan Sullivan said,”
Great find, Marti.
Yes… that’s a CLEAR picture of the same ‘Dan Sullivan’ who must have been hired as ASGS for Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
It also shows clearly that it seemed to be his ‘habit’ to be wearing a ‘ball cap’ ( as Bryan Smith also described ) when he was out on fire assignments.
As for the additional detail that Bryan Smith provided about the guy having to clear all kinds of ‘maps’ off the front seat of that 4-door all-aquamarine SUV/Suburban-style vehicle… I believe that actually supports the theory that it was ASGS Dan Sullivan back there in Glen Ilah at that time.
It sounds like what I would expect of someone hired as an ASGS. He WOULD tend to have maps ‘spread out’ for reference next to him in his own vehicle.
As for the beard… these images of Dan Sullivan show him beardless but they also show he had kind of a ‘pointy chin’. When a person like that DOES decide to grow a beard… it very often DOES come out looking sort of ‘triangular’, as Bryan Smith also described.
Followup…
If it does actually turn out to be ‘Dan Sullivan’ back there rescuing Bryan Smith and his cousin Pearl Moore ( and NOT Gary Cordes )… what will boggle the mind is how it was that Gary Cordes seemed to know ALL of the DETAILS, to the point where he could have been ‘telling the story’ the way he did to ADOSH.
We tend to forget, when looking at transcripts, that they are NOT ‘Unit Logs’ where someone had time to prepare all that text.
Gary Cordes was SPEAKING that STORY to ADOSH, in real time.
So ALL of those details ( which match exactly the way Bryan Smith himself recalls the whole rescue taking place ) were fully available to Cordes enought for him to ‘tell the story’ like he was ACTUALLY there, doing it.
Very strange.
Joy verified with Bryon that Sullivan was the man that did the heroic deed of taking a few minutes off his regular duty to get Pearl to an ambulance. This Joy is amazing at needling out the truth of a matter. She reminds me of my Dad who had only a fourth grade education, yet read and understood Dana’s System of minerology better than I do with a college bat hide.
what? Actually is age seven fourth grade—
you were close—I have a second grade education 🙂
smiles.
Then you are likely smarter than my Dad. Well you are in certain areas–except going into mine drifts and escaping fires. You rank among the 19 on that. But be it as it may. we are the best old married couple around. She’s married, I’m old.
Joy A. Collura says
January 13, 2016 at 10:16 pm
Then you are likely smarter than my Dad. Well you are in certain areas–except going into mine drifts and escaping fires. You rank among the 19 on that. But be it as it may. we are the best old married couple around. She’s married, I’m old.
Reply to Sonny post on
January 13, 2016 at 8:41 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Joy verified with Bryon that Sullivan was
>> the man that did the heroic deed of taking
>> a few minutes off his regular duty to get
>> Pearl to an ambulance.
And Dan Sullivan honestly deserves the CREDIT for that ( and not Gary Cordes ).
This is also a reminder of what we have been saying ( and doing ) here all along.
EVERY piece of EVIDENCE is IMPORTANT.
EVERY photograph *might* become important, at some point.
It was ALSO Joy who provided the Anna Marie Lechner photo that was the final verification that Gary Cordes WAS driving that red-and-white Central Yavapai command vehicle with the camper top and the flat light bar on top.
With that knowledge… and now Joy + Bryan Smith’s willingness to see this through… we have been able to also CONFIRM that it was NOT Gary Cordes who did this particular ‘rescue’… as he was claiming he did in his ADOSH interview.
This is now a real ‘gut check’ moment for the Arizona media in general… and AZCENTRAL in particular.
Are they now willing to ADMIT that the Arizona Wildlfire Academy’s “Firefighter of the year for 2013”, Gary Cordes, was outright LYING to Arizona State ADOSH investigators… and they have printed a FALSE STORY?
Will they print a RETRACTION?
Will they take it one step farther and try to find out WHY the “Arizona Firefighter of he Year” was LYING to investigators?
We shall see.
Glad you were able to catch this, Joy and WTKTT.
This truly is mind-boggling.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
January 12, 2016 at 11:06 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I will show this video to Bryan—
>> I think I found it.
>> 5:37 out 7:52
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCfqkN3r3T4
I agree. That could be it… but that one is odd in that it is NOT following some of the standard USFS Equipment Identifier regulations and it doesn’t even have the standard ‘white stripe’ down the side. All it has is the US Forestry logo on the side doors.
But it IS a 4-door all-aquamarine SUV/Suburban-style vehicle that most probably belongs to the Prescott National Forest ( and, perhaps, being driven by Dan Sullivan? ).
There are at least THREE other videos of this same procession taken at that same time at that same location in Prescott. Slightly different angles.
There are actually FOUR vehicles in this video that
could match the description being given by Bryan Smith.
+ 3:30
At +3:30 in that video we see the following vehicle…
All-aquamarine 4-door SUV/Suburban-style truck with US Forestry Shield-logo on the passenger door. NO light-bar on the top. No ‘deer chucker’ installed over front grill.
The ‘Unit Designator’ inside the standard US Forestry ‘white stripe’ running down the side of the vehicle, and over the front passenger-side wheel is ‘CH-9’.
** +4:57
At +4:57, there is this vehicle…
All-aquamarine 4-door Ford pickup truck with an enclosed camper top back US Forestry Shield-logo on the passenger door. Flat light-bar on the top. This one DOES have a ‘deer chucker’ installed over the front grill.
The ‘Unit Designator’ inside the standard US Forestry ‘white stripe’ running down the side of the vehicle, and over the front passenger-side wheel is ‘AZ-PNF’ ( Arizona – Prescott National Forest ).
On the side of the enclosed, windowless camper top is another ‘Unit Designator’ in white letters which says “UTL 930”.
** +5:37
At +5:37 is yet ANOTHER vehicle that could be the one…
All-aquamarine 4-door SUV/Suburban-style truck with US Forestry Shield-logo on the passenger door. There is NO light-bar on the top and this time, there is also NO standard USFS ‘white stripe’ down the vehicles side(s) and also NO standard ‘Unit Designators’ of any kind. Also no ‘deer chucker’ installed over front grill.
** +6:22
And again, at +6:22, there is this vehicle, almost identical to the one that passed by at +4:57…
All-aquamarine 4-door Ford pickup truck with an enclosed camper top back US Forestry Shield-logo on the passenger door. Flat light-bar on the top. This one DOES have a ‘deer chucker’ installed over the front grill.
The ‘Unit Designator’ inside the standard US Forestry ‘white stripe’ running down the side of the vehicle, and over the front passenger-side wheel is ‘AZ-PNF’ ( Arizona – Prescott National Forest ).
But unlike the similar one at +4:57, this one has no additional ‘Unit Designator’ on the side of the enclosed, windowless camper top.
** +6:59
At +6:59 is yet another 4-door all-aquamarine truck… but this one has a Unit Designator of AZ-COF ( Arizona – Coconino National Forest ) and the BACK of it is much larger than the others and getting more into the ‘large squareback utility truck’ style. Definitely NO in the SUV/Suburban-style category.
Bob said
We also have a couple of things from the Radio statements.
GM is committed to the Black. This came from a direct statement to OPS about moving to Yarnell.
The fire has crossed the Retardant Line This came fro a direct statement to Marsh from Steed
Bob. Where are you getting the RADIO statement “GM is committed to the black”? And Steed actually reported that the fire had crossed the road not the retardant line
I
The statement ( they’re or we’re ) committed to the Black came from the request on there availability form I believe one of the Ops. or the IC We discussed that a lot. That was on the main fire Freq. and in the interview notes. Part of the Hunker and be safe discussion.
The statement over the Radio to Marsh during the two nine second Videos by Steed informing Marsh of the Fire advance as if Marsh may not have known. Or could not see the Fire. After the fire had pushed McDonough off his look out spot and Frisby had moved him to the Trucks.
The Road? or the Tractor Push? I misspoke on the Retardant line. the Retardant line was to the south of the Tractor push and the fire was moving towards it thanks for the correction.
At that point the fire had nothing to stop its movement to the south. which I believe Steed was concerned about. That’s why they had moved into the Black.
I like you have never kept the notes that WTKTT has and can refer to. So the exact names escape me at times.
Reply to Bob Powers post on January 12, 2016 at 4:24 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The statement ( they’re or we’re ) committed to the Black came
>> from the request on there availability form I believe one of the
>> Ops. or the IC We discussed that a lot.
Yes. We did… ad infinitum… and you are still not remembering things correctly.
At 3:42 PM, OPS2 Paul Musser called out to DIVSA Marsh on a TAC channel.
We HEAR him beginning that one-and-only radio call he says he ever made to Marsh in one of the Panebaker Air-Study videos.
In OPS2 Paul Musser’s part of his SAIT interview notes… there is NO MENTION of him ever making this radio call to DIVSA Eric Marsh.
It only ‘came out’ that he actually did this during his ADOSH interview.
But even then… in OPS2 Paul Musser’s ADOSH testimony… Musser was VERY adamant that he NEVER asked Marsh if he was “Committed to the BLACK”.
OPS2 Paul Musser was adamant that they only thing he asked Marsh is if he ( and his resources ) were still “Committed to the RIDGE”.
In other words… whether they were still committed to their ASSIGNMENT, and NOT whether they were actually already ‘hunkering down’ and/or ‘committed to the BLACK’, or something.
As we have discussed over and over… it’s a subtle ( but important ) distinction to remember and even Paul Musser was ‘making the distinction’ between the two things DURING his ADOSH interview.
Once again… there is no need to take my word for this.
Here is OPS2 Paul Musser, in his OWN WORDS… talking to ADOSH…
Q2 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Paul Musser, OPS2 in Yarnell on June 30, 2013
—————————————————————————
1412 A: Got on the 89 to a vantage point and met with Gary Cordes. Face to face
1413 with Gary. As far as – oh at that point, I’d also called Granite on their radio.
1414 Because Todd was still tied up with Model Creek. I called Granite on the
1415 radio and asked if them and Blue Ridge were still committed on the ridge?
1416 They said that they were committed on the ridge. But Blue Ridge was on the
1417 bottom and may, may be available. I talked with Gary, he said no their
1418 committed to, uh, hold – to prepping and hold the dozer line.
1474 Q2: Okay. When you, uh – let me back up to when you made contact with Granite
1475 Mountain, who – who did you talk to – Eric?
1476
1477 A: I think so.
1478
1479 Q2: But you can’t remember for sure if that was Eric or…
1480
1481 A: I – I – ‘cause I – I think I called division Alpha, not Granite, no.
1482
1483 Q2: Oh, okay.
1484
1485 A: That’s who I would have called.
1486
1487 Q2: Uh, so it would have…
1488
1489 A: Yeah, I wouldn’t have called Granite direct.
1490
1491 Q2: Okay.
1492
1493 A: I would have called – gone through their supervisor.
1494
1495 Q2: Okay.
1496
1497 A: Which at that point was division Alpha.
1498
1499 Q2: Okay. And, uh, so, uh, that conversation was you’re in the black and you need
1500 to stay in the black?
1501
1502 A: No, no that conversation was are you still committed on top of the ridge. And
1503 they said yes we are committed on top of the ridge.
1504
1505 Q2: Okay. And so you’re assumption was they were in the black?
1506
1507 A: If – if they were committed on top of the ridge, they would have one foot in
1508 the black.
1509
1510 Q2: Okay.
1511
1512 A: Because that was their assignment, yes.
—————————————————————
So OPS2 Paul Musser himself ‘corrected’ ADOSH investigator Barry Hicks and made SURE he understood that the QUESTION Musser asked Marsh was about ‘the ridge’ and not ‘the black’.
Musser was ‘assuming’ there WAS ‘black’ up there ( somewhere near where they were working ), but that’s still NOT what he says he ASKED Marsh about when he called him at 3:42 PM.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> That was on the main fire Freq.
Yes. That part is correct. We HEAR Musser beginning this radio call to Marsh at 3:42 on one of the TAC channels that was being captured by the Panebaker video team.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> and in the interview notes.
ONLY in Musser’s ADOSH testimony. The SAIT never mentions this important radio call between OPS2 Paul Musser and DIVSA Eric Marsh.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Part of the Hunker and be safe discussion.
No.
Even according to OPS2 Paul Musser… there was no ‘hunker and be safe’ component in the conversation between OPS2 Paul Musser and DIVSA Eric Marsh at 3:42 PM.
What you are referring to as the “Hunker and be safe discussion” only happened EIGHT minutes later… circa 3:50 PM… when OPS1 Todd Abel is captured in Robert Caldwell’s video speaking to Marsh on a TAC channel.
That’s the conversation where we hear Abel tell Marsh to “Hunker and be safe”… and we also hear Eric Marsh tell OPS1 Abel he was ( at that moment ) “Working his way off the top”.
We know now that this “Working my way off the top” statement from Marsh meant that he was, in fact, ALREADY ‘scouting ahead’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch and was coming ALL the way ‘off the top’ of the Weaver mountains and down towards the Ranch… but he (apparently) did NOT make that clear to OPS1 Todd Abel.
OPS1 Todd Abel testified that he thought they were ‘staying put’ up there, at that point, and that’s when he said “You guys hunker and be safe”.
We still don’t know how that 3:50 PM conversation ended… and what Marsh’s response was to Abel’s “Hunker and be safe” directive.
OPS1 Todd Abel identified his OWN VOICE in that Robert Caldwell video… but then would have us believe he doesn’t even remember having that entire conversation with his DIVSA.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The statement over the Radio to Marsh during the two nine second
>> Videos by Steed informing Marsh of the Fire advance as if Marsh
>> may not have known. Or could not see the Fire. After the fire had
>> pushed McDonough off his look out spot and Frisby
>> had moved him to the Trucks.
>>
>> The Road? or the Tractor Push? I misspoke on the Retardant line.
>> the Retardant line was to the south of the Tractor push
No, it was not.
The heavy retardant line that was laid down by Air Attack ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) all the way from the Weaver Mountains, near the Helispot location, and EAST, across that ‘middle bowl’… was NORTH of the ‘Tractor push’ and the old-grader location.
The fireline ‘blew through’ that retardant line ( like it wasn’t even there ) circa 3:41 PM, just about 1 minute before OPS2 Paul Musser would call DIVSA Marsh on the radio.
In another one of the Panebaker videos… we actually HEAR DIVSA Marsh reporting this event at 3:41 over the radio ( presumably to OPS1 Todd Abel )… and even Marsh is now reporting that the fire is “Headed for town”.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> At that point the fire had nothing to stop its movement to the south.
>> which I believe Steed was concerned about. That’s why they had
>> moved into the Black.
All of the following things happened at roughly the same time, within just a 3 or 4 minute ‘window’ starting at 4:39 PM to about 4:43 PM…
01. Frisby accidentally stumbles across Brendan coming off his lookout mound.
02. Frisby sees the fire heading SOUTH, right at them, with 50 foot flame lengths.
03. Frisby realizes it’s time for him and Brendan to just get the fuck OUT of there.
04. Frisby calls Marsh/Steed, cancels the second face-to-face.
05. Frisby says he has Brendan and will be evacuating him back EAST.
06 Frisby asks Marsh/Steed if they want their vehicles moved.
07. Marsh/Steed say yes… and the GM drivers pipe up on the radio telling Frisby where all the keys are.
08 Frisby calls Brown and says get some drivers to move GM trucks.
09 WHILE Marsh is finishing conversation with Frisby… OPS2 Musser calls him.
10 Marsh finishes talking to Frisby and answers OPS2 Musser’s radio call.
11 Jesse Steed gives the “Tools Up” order and all GM start assembling at anchor point ‘rest spot’.
12 Marsh finishes his radio call with Musser and ( apparently ) ‘takes off to the south, right away, ‘scouting ahead” to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Then… 7 minutes later… at 3:50 PM…
01. OPS1 Abel calls Marsh on a TAC channel. Captured in Caldwell’s video.
02. Marsh tells Abel he is ALREADY “working his way off the top”. ( Marsh is heard breathing hard and exerting himself in that audio capture ).
03. OPS1 Abel doesn’t full understand this means Marsh is already “scouting ahead” to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
04. OPS1 Abel TELLS Marsh to “Hunker and be safe”, thinking they are ‘staying put’ up there.
05. Marsh apparently never makes it clear to Abel he has no intentions of doing so, and that he is ALREADY “scouting ahead” to mark the path for the crew to come down to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Then… 5 minutes later… at 3:55 PM…
01. We see/hear the two 9 second video/audio clips taken by Chris MacKenzie.
02. Marsh is now so far SOUTH ( and out of sight? ) that Steed seems to be assuming he can no longer see what Steed can see… and he feels the need to tell him where the fireline is.
03. Steed tells Marsh fireline has ‘almost reached the road we walked in on’.
Then… sometime in the next 8 minutes ( between 3:56 PM and 4:04 PM )…
01 An argument ensues.
02 Marsh ends up ORDERING Steed to bring the crew down to Ranch.
03 Steed tells the men to ‘gaggle up’ and head SOUTH towards the Boulder Springs Ranch… but still not at ‘double-time’ or even at anything faster than a normal hiking pace.
The rest is history… and 19 people died.
So my first statement was correct it had crossed the retardant line.
The crew was in the Black and Steed pulled them to that location for one reason.
It was a safe area and I still believe he was in the Black for a SZ not a rest area.
But thanks for the lecture WTKTT.
You really don’t want me on here and Calvin has no clue so lecture to him.
Adios MF
One more thing MF——-
They were in the BLACK they moved from the Line to the BLACK.
A picture says a thousand words.
Continue working the line and be next to unburned fuel and have the fire run at your crew and your now worthless line move to the Black.
The Picture says it all Steed pulled them to the Black where they were safe. It was not just a rest area.
Retardant line is only good as long as the retardant is wet. The fire went right thru it. And was almost to the Road/Cat Line they walked in on near the old grader.
To me the Fire which they could see was moving to the South with a 1 mile or so head. Steed was where he needed to be with the crew until he was ORDERED to move by Marsh.
My conclusion Steed was doing the Right thing until he was ordered by Marsh to move the crew. They were not ordered by any one else and Steed caved in. Thus they both hold the responsibility.
Not any Hell Mary or other conceived plans which can happen a lot on fires by many different Overhead. The safety of the Crew is always number one.
Bob… the POINT that you and RTS keep ‘hammering home’ is not lost on me.
Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed killed the men they were responsible for.
I get it.
But ( and without using that trigger word ‘responsibility’ ), I belong to that category of people who still think there is ‘more to the story’ than just that simple fact.
There couldn’t possibly be a more relevant “Lesson to Learn” to carry forward to all line supervisors other than “Please don’t kill the people you are responsible for”… and that SHOULD be HAMMERED HOME for them ( line supervisors ).
But we still don’t have the ‘full story’.
It remains very, very curious to me that OPS2 Paul Musser says he never ASKED Eric Marsh to do anything at all… yet the evidence now seems to show that the MOMENT Eric Marsh finished that 3:42 PM radio call with Musser… Marsh IMMEDIATELY took off to the south “scouting ahead” ( according to survivor McDonough ) so that GM could get down to the Boulder Springs Ranch…. and beyond?
Whatever happened on THAT radio call remains ‘part of the story’.
We also don’t know if, at that point, Jesse Steed even knew WHY Eric Marsh ‘took off’ on this scouting mission.
Yes… they ‘got in the black’ after they saw their own lookout have to be rescued and could SEE that the ‘tail’ was now a ‘head’ and heading SOUTH…
….but we still don’t know if Jesse Steed KNEW if they were going to be ‘moving’, or not.
We just don’t know what Marsh said to Steed when he ‘took off’ to the south to ‘scout ahead’.
WTKTT,
You posted: “I get it” that Marsh and Steed killed the men they were responsible for yet you follow up with this: “But ( and without using that trigger word ‘responsibility’ ), I belong to that category of people who still think there is ‘more to the story’ than just that simple fact.”
What is SO f**king hard to understand that it does NOT matter one bit what anyone said or didn’t say to Marsh or the GMHS the afternoon of June 30, 2013.
There really is no reason to know ‘the rest of the story’ unless you’re writing a book or something. They are NOT victims of anyone’s decision other than their own. It does NOT matter what the conversation was! The GMHS overhead had the RESPONSIBILITY for their Crew’s safety and welfare. THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERED NO MATTER WHAT WAS DISCUSSED!
So along with that, “Whatever happened on THAT radio call” between OPS Musser and Marsh still “remains ‘part of the story” but to me, it does NOT matter one iota.
LCES is what mattered then and the GMHS did NOT completely comply with the “L” or “S” legs.
You posted: “Yes… they ‘got in the black’ after they saw their own lookout have to be rescued and could SEE that the ‘tail’ was now a ‘head’ and heading SOUTH…”
I disagree here. They ‘got in the black’ because it was the right thing to do to comply with LCES. They had BOTH the best vantage point (LOOKOUT) and the best Safety Zone (the black). They were in their SZ LONG BEFORE the tail became the head and started to head south.
You posted: “….but we still don’t know if Jesse Steed KNEW if they were going to be ‘moving’, or not.
“We just don’t know what Marsh said to Steed when he ‘took off’ to “the south to ‘scout ahead’.”
I believe that Steed KNEW that Marsh wanted them to move down to/toward the BSR, and I believe he KNEW they were going to be moving out or not, based on a strong indication from Marsh during the ‘discussing our options’ Crew Net conversations.
I believe that Steed’s Marine Corps training and experience to “follow orders,” along with the two other Marines on the GMHS, knew that IF Marsh insisted that the leave ‘the black’ and head down to/toward the BSR, then they would follow orders, just like Boot Camp Marines do.
Steed KNEW that Marsh was insistent on them leaving the black and heading down and instead of being DIRECT with him, he used what’s known as ‘MITIGATING SPEECH or HINTING.’
Mitigated speech is communication that is deferential or indirect. It is highlighted in Malcolm Gladwell’s book titled Outliers. Gladwell defines mitigation as “any attempt to downplay or sugarcoat the meaning of what is being said.” This is what Steed was doing when replying to Marsh in the “discussing our options’ Crew Net conversation.
This is a link to an article titled: “Why It’s Important to Understand Direct vs. Mitigated Speech” by Andy Naselli.
http://andynaselli.com/why-its-important-to-understand-direct-vs-mitigated-speech
So, instead of Steed DIRECTLY telling Marsh ‘NO we are NOT leaving the black,’ Steed used what is referred to as ‘MITIGATING SPEECH’ when he is describing the fire activity and fire location because he knows Marsh cannot see the fire from his location. He is ‘HINTING’ to Marsh that this is NOT the time to be leaving the good black.
If Marsh could have seen the fire behavior and location, then he would have told Steed, something like ‘copy, that’s what I see or have been seeing’ or whatever. He did not say that.
Steed is also using ‘MITIGATING SPEECH’ and ‘HINTING’ by saying several times “we are in the black.” He is HOPING Marsh will pick up on the hint based on the degrading fire weather and increasing fire activity.
Sonny,
You are spot on for being a NON-WFF on the retardant effectiveness that day. It was too hot, the brush was too thick, and the fire behavior too aggressive. AND air support, e.g. retardant, buckets, etc. MUST be supported by WFF on the ground. Air support alone is worthless.
And on the retardant drops to save them or anyone for that mater, if one has to rely on retardant drops to SAVE them from burning, just like deploying a fire shelter, then someone has really f**ked up!
The notion of retardant drops SAVING WFF is stuff in the movies and Bleeding Heart Liberal media reports. it does NOT happen in real life.
Here are the six (6) levels of ways we make suggestions based in Malcolm Gladwell’s book, Outlier:
Command – “Strategy X is going to be implemented”
Team Obligation Statement – “We need to try strategy X”
Team Suggestion – “Why don’t we try strategy X”
Query – “Do you think strategy X would help us in this situation?”
Preference – “Perhaps we should take a look at one of these Y alternatives”
Hint – “I wonder if we could run into any roadblocks on our current course”
The last one (Hint) is ‘Mitigating Speech.’
Yes, Bob Powers, when you are committed to the black then what omen, consternation, encouragement, order, fear of disobedience causing resulting consequences, etc. could make you do a stupid thing and go down into a canyon knowing that it was a Russian roulette challenge. Eric Marsh was not stupid. I met the man right below the fire line that Sunday morning on June 30, 2013. He impressed me as one of the fellows that would know his business right to left. Of course as an old man and knowledge of the nature of life, I would never take the risk he and Joy were up to. What then when you are comfortable in the black would make you change your mind to take that risk– Now I might alone but 18 more men behind me, then Steed with 17 behind him.
Consider I had only Joy. She weighed 193 and me 145. She has a right that is pretty damn tough. But then neither of us are bosses over the other. Yet she wanted to do a Marsh/Steed gamble. She did not see it as a gamble an hour before they went down.
Those are the human factors we have to mull over.
Reply to Bob Powers post on January 13, 2016 at 8:57 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> So my first statement was correct it had
>> crossed the retardant line.
Yes… it did… and we can HEAR DIVSA Eric Marsh reporting this fact to (presumably) OPS1 Todd Abel right around 3:41 PM, and just moments before OP2 Paul Musser would begin his radio ‘callout’ to Marsh.
It’s the radio transmission where we then hear Eric Panebaker himself ‘joking’ about this report from Marsh about the fire just ‘blowing through’ the retardant line with whoever was with him and saying “Where do we record THAT in the Air Study?”
For all we know…. it was Musser overhearing this very report from Marsh that caused him to want to talk to him at that time.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The crew was in the Black and Steed pulled them to that
>> location for one reason.
>>
>> It was a safe area and I still believe he was in the Black
>> for a SZ not a rest area.
I believe that as well… even though we don’t have any evidence about exactly what Steed might have been thinking at that time, or whether he already knew there *might* be a good chance they would be leaving. That all depends on what Marsh might have said to Steed before he, himself, decided to take off ‘scouting south’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch ( circa 3:44 PM, right after talking with Musser ).
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> You really don’t want me on here
Not the case.
As I have said many, many times… I am NOT the moderator of this forum and I have no control over who posts here and who doesn’t.
But in case you haven’t noticed… MY big ‘thing’ is the EVIDENCE.
Whenever I see something posted ( from ANYONE ) that seems to be blatantly ‘getting the facts we DO know about’ wrong… I feel the urge to jump in and at least try to set things straight… to the best of MY knowledge.
I have been wrong myself ( many times ) about what the EVIDENCE record contains… and I am always GRATEFUL, myself, when someone corrects ME…. because I think the EVIDENCE record is all we have… and we have a responsibility here to try and ‘get it right’ as best as we can.
As for all the opining that goes on here as well… that’s a different thing. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and, as Gary Cordes once said…
“The GOOD thing about this forum is that we all have a place to express our opinions. The BAD thing about this forum is that we all have a place to express our opinions”.
If you notice in what you are calling a ‘lecture’ up above… nowhere am I disagreeing with your expressed OPINIONS.
I was ONLY trying to set the FACTS straight with regards to some statements you made and what you seemed to be mis-remembering.
So I hope you continue to post here. You and RTS have made a good team and your insights have been important to understanding things.
But I also can’t promise that I won’t ever again try to correct you on the FACTS… if I think you are getting them wrong.
I have no problem with reading people’s opinions here as long as I feel like they are basing them on whatever FACTS we have, and not some mis-remembered sequence of events.
There are still so many FACTS missing here that I really do feel it’s important to hang on tightly to the hard-earned ones we DO have, and not let them get ‘distorted’.
And that includes myself.
If I ever get the FACTS mixed up myself… I would hope someone ( anyone ) comes out and slams me for it… and shows me where I got mixed up.
and Calvin has no
>> clue so lecture to him.
>>
>> Adios MF
You are taking all this way too personally, Bob.
Fuck You Go To Hell and when you get there learn a little about Fire.
But you wont fined any Fire Fighters There.
All I can say to something like that is…
Please continue to contribute to this discussion.
Your insights are often valuable.
Bob you will find a lot of old miners in hell. Well God only figures them to stay in Heaven for about 3 days. They can’t stand the harp music unless it is on a Guiness bottle.
It is nice to be a Zombie now. That way people look at you like you;have come out of the grave, maybe so, since i never saw Jesus or all the lights the saints see. But I did have peace and plenty of reason that coming back was no big deal and to die was not either. I can not recount that I was out for ten days, Joy kept track of that. But I always tell people I will be back in ten days. I am not impressed to go to heaven since I do not particularly like harp music and pretty angels that do nothing. And let us not forget that we live life and honesty rules–not me, not Donut, not Cordes, not any human factor, though any human factor can send you to your heaven or hell. Ascribe yourself to any translated BS from thousands of years ago or adhere to the truth of the day. Jesus dropped me good Crown Royal out of the skies and aliens good or bad attacked me more than once. Bullets won’t kill them–they are holograms from hell– but truth dissolves them in a heart beat.
I forgot to add not ‘king Jorge or queen lizzy. Sorry
That about king geo and quene lizzy should go behind Cordes in my comment.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 12, 2016 at 2:42 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I didn’t find a ‘Dan’ or ‘Daniel’ Sullivan in the USFS employee directory but did find
>> one in the Park Service directory. When searching the web, I came across this
>> (at first glance it looked like a dead end, which it still may be………but towards
>> the bottom I found something very interesting.)
>>
>> http://www.survivalsullivan.com/how-to-survive-a-wildfire/
>>
>> Marti replied…
>>
>> “Sullivan” didn’t write that article. Someone named Karen Hendry did.
>> Also not really any “detail” about the Yarnell Fire. Just some boiler-plate
>> about Brendan.
Woodsman… good catch… but Marti is right.
This ‘Survival Sullivan’ guy is not the ‘Dan Sullivan’ who was hired as an ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ) for Yarnell and was there on June 30, 2013… and who worked ( past tense? ) for the Prescott National Forest.
SIDENOTE: Survival Sullivan’s ‘bolier plate’ about Brendan was totally inaccurate… and in one of the comments under the article it appears that ‘Holly Neill’ herself called him out on it. Holly Neill is the one who runs that ‘Safety Matters’ Facebook site where the following comment came from…
—————————————————————————
Reply · Nov 29, 2015 10:38am
Reply From: Safety Matters: A Wildland Firefighter Forum for Change
Some good tips and advice to the public overall. However, you go on to make questionable statements about the Yarnell Hill Fire. Specifically, that McDonough radioed his crew that they should evacuate as well. There is no available evidence to date to suggest that McDonough told his own crew to evacuate, nor any evidence to suggest that they took his advice. It is misleading and an oversimplification to state that he told his team to evac and when they attempted to do so, they died simply because they didn’t have enough time to get out, (get out of, by the way, good safe black to start with). Stick to solid tips for wildfire public safety and your article is helpful. Your statements and assumptions about McDonough need to be reevaluated for accuracy.
—————————————————————————-
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I’m looking over the resource order you posted. Released to Phoenix airport?
>>
>> Marti replied…
>>
>> Off the top of my head, a lot of folks were “released” to the “Airport.” That sort
>> of stymied me for awhile. As it turns out It’s probably kind of a generic term.
>> The Arizona Dispatch Center is at the Phoenix Interagency Fire Center which is
>> located at the Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport in Mesa, AZ I’m pretty sure that’s
>> what that means.
Agree. There were a LOT of ‘Resource Orders’ that show this ‘release’ to the AIRPORT, even if they are LOCAL people and not ‘flown in’, or something.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Also authorized for personal vehicle or rental?
>> May be nothing.
I think that actually DOES indicate something relevant.
If you look at other ‘Resource Orders’ ( like Paul Musser’s, etc. )… this notation about ‘RENTAL AOV, POV’ seems to always mean that the VEHICLE this person will be arriving in is actually ALL THREE of those things.
As is the case with Paul Musser’s entry.
We KNOW now that he was driving that dark-blue 2-door pickup with the government plate, the Arizona ’round’ logo on the door and the ‘Arizona Incident Management Team’ square logo on the side.
It was a STATE RENTAL… which means it was an AOV ( Agency Owned Vehicle ), but Musser appears to have also been able to ‘take it home’ so I guess that means it would also qualify for the POV ( Personal Vehicle ) designation.
So if Dan Sullivan’s entry matches Musser’s… then it’s likely he WAS driving a ‘Prescott National Forest’ owned vehicle that day… and it was ‘all-aquamarine’ forestry bluish/greenish color.
** ANOTHER SEARCH HIT?
Here is another ‘interesting’ search hit for ‘Dan Sullivan’ related to the Yarnell fire.
That name appears in that PHOENIX CBS(5) media story that appeared with even Yarnell FFs testifying that the Yarnell fire definitely COULD / SHOULD have been put out on ‘day one’.
The article was written by Morgan Loew… who I believe Joy Collura has met.
The article is here…
PHOENIX – CBS(5) – WorldNow Online
Firefighter: We could have put out Yarnell Hill Fire on Day One
Published: Feb 26, 2014 9:20 PM CST
http://raycomgroup.worldnow.com/story/24835120/firefighter-we-could-have-put-out-yarnell-hill-fire-on-day-one
From the article…
—————————————————————————————
PHOENIX (CBS5) –
A former Yarnell volunteer firefighter said it was possible to put out the deadliest wildfire in more than three decades, when it was still just a wisp of smoke. Meantime, CBS 5 Investigates found state dispatchers failed to call in some of the closest firefighters and equipment.
“We could have driven up part of the way and walked the rest of the way with shovels and a bucket of water in our hands,” said LeRoy Anderson, who was a volunteer firefighter with the Yarnell Fire Department on June 28. That was the day a lightning strike started the Yarnell Hill Fire.
“The fire, for basically the whole night, was the size of a Buick. It wasn’t very big at all,” said Anderson.
Anderson told CBS 5 Investigates he did not see an urgency to put out the flames, on the part of the Yarnell Fire Department.
“There were convenient reasons not to go. Let’s put it that way,” said Anderson.
** DAN SULLIVAN
Dan Sullivan owns Lynx Wildland Fire Co. He is a private contractor, located in Prescott, just 40 minutes from Yarnell.
Sullivan said the federal government calls him and his equipment into action several times per year, but the state of Arizona rarely does. Despite Sullivan and his equipment’s close proximity to the Yarnell Hill Fire, he was not called into service. He and other private contractors told CBS 5 Investigates they are rarely used by state fire officials, despite the fact that they are fully certified to fight wildland fires.
—————————————————————————————
“Dan Sullivan owns Lynx Wildland Fire Co. He is a private contractor, located in Prescott, just 40 minutes from Yarnell.”
Not sure how this cold be the SAME ‘Dan Sullivan’ who WAS hired as an ASGS for Yarnell on June 30, 2013, but it’s interesting that there would be ANOTHER ‘Dan Sullivan’ there in Prescott running some PRIVATE Wildland Firefighting company.
Is it even POSSIBLE that you could be employed by a local National Forest ( The Prescott National Forest ) AND also be running your OWN private WFF company ‘at the same time’?
More later.
Re:
“Dan Sullivan owns Lynx Wildland Fire Co.”
I really totally hard-corely think that’s a very different Dan Sullivan.
Did a bunch of googling of Dan Sullivan earlier today. The one who (ahem) is related to “fire and aviation.” I still can’t figure out who he is employed by.
But he’s a major player on the Region 3 Incident Management Team circuit.
Here is Dan Sullivan, SWIMT 3 Air Operations Branch Director Dan Sullivan, speaking on Day 7 of the Assayi Lake Fire, on the Navajo Reservation, June 20, 2014, He starts at 6:29 on the video, after Southwest Incident Management Team 3 Operations Chief Todd Abel gives a general briefing.
From the YouTube version:
“Day 7 – Assayii Lake Fire “largest” fire on Navajo Reservation”
https://youtu.be/0dKzc3c7L0I?t=6m29s
“Published on Jun 20, 2014
The Assayii Lake Fire is at 20 percent containment. That’s according to a June 19, 2014, evening fire report from the Southwest Incident Management Team 3. And the fire is also at 13,450 acres, which only a growth of two acres since this morning’s fire briefing at the Tse Hootosi Middle School “Tin House” in Fort Defiance, Ariz., at 9 a.m. and a morning fire report that was released after the briefing.
At this morning’s fire briefing, SWIMT 3 Operations Chief Todd Abel said, “It was a very good day yesterday. The winds calmed down a little bit for us. It was fairly windy but not like the previous days. So a lot of good work was done yesterday. We anticipate today with the lack of wind things will go real good.”
“The winds finally started breaking yesterday, and we were just about able to get all our aircraft in the air,” SWIMT 3 Air Operations Branch Director Dan Sullivan said, “And they’ll support the guys on the line directly. As Todd’s folks are on the line digging line and stuff, we’re coming in with helicopters with water and cooling the fire edge down so they can get right next to it and put a hand line in. So yesterday was a very successful day.”
Sullivan reported that the DC-10 air tanker, which he described as “relatively new,” holds 11,000 gallons of fire retardant and it made three drops on the fire yesterday.
He said that “multiple” other air tankers also made several drops yesterday.
Air operations also has four Type 1 helicopters that can hold about 1,00 gallons of water each and most of them “timed out” after flying for about seven or eight hours yesterday, Sullivan added. “So it was an extremely successful day and we’re looking forward to the same thing today.”
He explained that the high winds of previous days grounded air support because it’s “not safe to fly the aircraft that close to the ground.”
The website where I got that from, as i was following the Assayii Lake Fire in 2014, is here:
Marley Shebala’s Notebook: Keeping an eye on Navajo Government: YOUTUBE VIDEO: DAY 7 – ASSAYII LAKE FIRE “LARGEST FIRE” ON NAVAJO RESERVATION
http://www.dineresourcesandinfocenter.org/youtube-video-day-7-assayii-lake-fire-largest-fire-on-navajo-reservation/
“YouTub Video “Day 7 – Assayii Lake Fire “largest fire” on the Navajo Reservation”, which is a recording of the June 19, 2014, morning fire briefing, is also available for viewing.
At this morning’s fire briefing, SWIMT 3 Operations Chief Todd Abel said, “It was a very good day yesterday. The winds calmed down a little bit for us. It was fairly windy but not like the previous days. So a lot of good work was done yesterday. We anticipate today with the lack of wind things will go real good.”
“The winds finally started breaking yesterday, and we were just about able to get all our aircraft in the air,” SWIMT 3 Air Operations Branch Director Dan Sullivan said, “And they’ll support the guys on the line directly. As Todd’s folks are on the line digging line and stuff, we’re coming in with helicopters with water and cooling the fire edge down so they can get right next to it and put a hand line in. So yesterday was a very successful day.”
Sullivan reported that the DC-10 air tanker, which he described as “relatively new,” holds 11,000 gallons of fire retardant and it made three drops on the fire yesterday.
He said that “multiple” other air tankers also made several drops yesterday.
Air operations also has four Type 1 helicopters that can hold about 1,00 gallons of water each and most of them “timed out” after flying for about seven or eight hours yesterday, Sullivan added. “So it was an extremely successful day and we’re looking forward to the same thing today.”
He explained that the high winds of previous days grounded air support because it’s “not safe to fly the aircraft that close to the ground.”
This video shows VERY CLEARLY what “our” DAN SULLIVAN looks like.
Yes… it does… and it also seems to prove that he was in the ‘habit’ of wearing a BALL CAP on fire assignments.
That matches one of the details Bryan Smith remembers about his rescue.
He has no beard in the video… but he does seem to have sort of a ‘pointy chin’… and sometimes people like that who choose to grow beards end up with that ‘triangular shape’ that Bryan Smith also seems to be remembering.
Even though I couldn’t pin down his employment specifically, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s somehow related, since he had his start as a Prescott Hotshot, to the USFS Prescott Fire Center Henry Y. H. Kim Aviation Facility.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/prescott/about-forest/?cid=fswdev3_009828
“The Prescott Fire Center and Henry Y.H. Kim Aviation Facility was officially dedicated in May 1992.
The Forest Service named this facility in honor of Henry Y.H. Kim, a pilot and Regional Aviation Safety Officer for the Southwestern Region of the Forest Service. A graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, Kim was a naval aviator and retired commander prior to his service with the Forest Service. He died in 1991 while flying a lead plane mission on a forest fire in New Mexico.”
Well the discussion down below by RTS and Woodsman brought me back for a follow up.
GMHS Move to the Black.
2 reasons which I believe Steed moved them to what he considered a Safety zone not a Rest area.
The last to arrive and take seats were the Saws as shown in the 2 videos. They would have been in front of the line construction and the last to arrive at location of the crew.
When Steed could see the Lookout being run out of his location and the increased fire activity That was going to compromise all the line they had been building. ( you can guess what ever from 200 FT. to a Half mile) Go back and look at the Fire Activity not the crew the two 9 second videos are very telling as to what the fire was doing during those 18 seconds the spot where the smoke was laying down to the South- SE says their is a good wind coming out of the North and will push the fire across the flats and up the mountain they are sitting on.
We also have a couple of things from the Radio statements.
GM is committed to the Black. This came from a direct statement to OPS about moving to Yarnell.
The fire has crossed the Retardant Line This came fro a direct statement to Marsh from Steed.
At this point is where the Direct Safety of the Crew falls to Steed.
No matter who asked them to move or redeploy. DIVS or OPS or IC Steed had the Safety to consider.
At that point they had all the safety rules to fall back on to say no and Steed had already confirmed they were Committed to the safe black and that was acceptable to OPS/IC .
At this point they could have said no to any body and been justified.
Except MARSH had any other DIVS asked them to move to the BSR I believe at their location they would have refused. Marsh used his over all control of the crew and steed to force a move for what ever reason.
Steed still had the opportunity to move safely or stay in the black. Evaluating the 18 Situations and the TEN Standard Orders. to determine if they could move safely to the BSR They absolutely needed LCES to move.
Steed needed to have contact with the DIVS and the DIVS needed to discuss the move with OPS to get clearance………..That was not done remember WE ARE COMMITTED TO THE BLACK.
The escape route was not a fast accessible route. and it violated the Lookout and the Escape route protocol. Their were at least 3 watch outs that were ignored that had killed others in the past.
Steed could have stayed in the Black on those alone and said NO.
So my Final Conclusion along with RTS— Steed and Marsh are the Final ones that are responsible.
At that point, The DIVS was not in the discussion had there been a DIVS that was not attached to the crew I believe they would have stayed in the BLACK. I believe that is a key point in this discussion. The Black was the safest place to be based on their location on the fire.
The move went against all the rules. Those are the indisputable Facts. I could put a 100 HS Superintendents in a room and they would tell you the same thing. The supervisors hold the final responsibility. Marsh and Steed killed their crew and them self’s….
Rod Wrench, Larry Boggs, Chet Cash, Mike Dorty, Bill Williams, Cole Johnson, Dale Jarrell to name a few old ones that I have talked with. Severial Superintendents from R3 including Frizby and those that RTS has talked to. Including all the Hot Shot Superintendents retired and not retired that meet yearly in California, of witch RTS and my self belong to.
Woodsman a good DIVS, STLD would make sure their crews were safe and the crews would and should also evaluate their safety right down to a 2 man IA on a Lightening Fire.
Safety starts as you have said with a FF first 40 Hr. training and every year there after with refreshing courses on the 10 and 18. you Said that back a ways and you were right.
.
I get RTS and Bob Power’s facts…
Yet due to missing elements will not stand there yet.
Just because my dad had lung cancer and health problems and dies in his sleep everyone on one area of family are upset I’m doing DNA toxicology on my own pops…its clarity and details and its closure for me and so in parallel I am the same on this fire because had I not met retired higher ups and other firefighters I would say we covered and did our part on yhf but we know there is more and missing elementsh
I understand Joy The closure is with all the information but some times that never comes. the true facts regardless of any requests or orders is each Crew, FF or overhead has the ability to say no based on the 10 and 18. and in this case there was a lot of safety facts to fall back on to turn down what they did. Marsh controlled the crew beyond that no one else controlled them.
Articulate—- the 10, LCES and the portions of the 18 that are significant points.
Say we are safer here than moving down thru a brush filled Canyon regardless of any new assignment.
Our safety evaluation dictates we stay in the black. The move has to many bad points to make it a good choice and outcome. Weather prediction, Time of day, No pre cut trail, the fire is less than 3/4 mile from the route we would take, no Look Out, Verses staying in the Black which has all good outcomes and no violations of the 10 and 18.
That’s all they had to do and 20 min. latter they would have proved their point as the Fire activity escalated the winds picked up and the fire started making its run.
I do not disagree and even encourage people to stand at attention when you both write and nothing you both have stated has been wrong. Facts.
I know more and saw footage and that in my humble opinion should be spoken public first hand not by me. I will go to Hart family next and see if Gary Cordes saved them. Its all about the fire being properly assessed with the ones to speak up…oh geez I had family dramatics today that I totally forgot interview.. Let me go call him…shit…darn shame some in my family can’t get because both my brothers and I have poor health we just want more in depth to know why my pops died in his sleep…but boy the perceptions of another can be way off…
And I state here to the world I stand by RTS and Bob Powers yet for me I just need a select number to speak up and if they don’t than that’s that and hail Mary plan my way to RTS and Bob…
Bob,
Thanks for staying on point with The WFF Basics and the GMHS leadership failure to follow them and heed the Watch Outs. And the GMHS leadership failures that resulted in them getting their Crew and themselves killed.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Matchbox-Chevrolets-Suburban-GREEN-FOREST-RANGER-Tahoe-RED-FIRE-1-64-Loose-/301691356628
this is the way he was describing the vehicle WWTKTT and he was FIRM not flexible on his description.—surburban/van like—four doors.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3342/3183392245_2dbb606c12.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flickriver.com/photos/navymailman/tags/suv/&h=333&w=500&tbnid=6KNSg5O5TLJkKM:&docid=mu143y3KkO5eFM&ei=OpWUVri0KdHgjwORq4OYBQ&tbm=isch&ved=0ahUKEwi4ubqQy6PKAhVR8GMKHZHVAFMQMwhTKC8wLw
https://www.flickr.com/photos/navymailman/3183392245/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/navymailman/3664806214/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/navymailman/3877234704/
im tired—gotta crash but the above vehicles are the ones CONFIRMED by Bryan Smith—the van/suburban four door vehicle with maps/plans rolled up—
That is the vehicle…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 11, 2016 at 11:04 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> The above vehicles are the ones CONFIRMED by Bryan Smith.
>> The van/suburban four door vehicle with maps/plans rolled up.
>> That is the vehicle…
Good job, Joy. And continuing THANKS to Bryan Smith as well.
So that means…
1. It was NOT Gary Cordes
2. It was NOT Prescott National Forest employee Jason Clawson.
3. It was NOT the Blue Ridge ‘Chase’ pickup truck.
As it turns out… there was actually ANOTHER ‘mystery man’ there in Yarnell all day who worked for the Prescott National Forest, and most likely would have been driving an ‘all-aquamarine’ forestry bluish/green vehicle in Yarnell that day.
His NAME was Dan Sullivan.
He was HIRED for Yarnell as an ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ).
We KNOW he was there, thanks to the ‘Resource Order’ records AND because of entries in Yarnell Helibase Manager Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log.
We KNOW that he worked with Brad Zeitler just before NOON helping to talk to Maughn Ranch manager Don Glascow and to try and get a better Helibase going there in Yarnell that day.
But other than that… we still know very little about his involvement with the Yarnell Hill Fire and what he was DOING the rest of the day.
When this ASGS ‘Dan Sullivan’ was discussed before… there was the definite possibility ( and there still is ) that HE could have been one of the ‘mysterious’ voices we hear in some of the Air-To-Air and Air-To-Ground radio captures. He might even be the one who seemed to be urging Eric Marsh to “Hurry Up” in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video.
This Dan Sullivan was NEVER interviewed by ANYONE, nor did he ever submit his own ‘Unit Log’ for Yarnell… even though we KNOW he was there working the fire.
Here are the entries from Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log proving that this ‘Dan Sullivan’ from the ‘Prescott National Forest’ was THERE that day…
Brad Zeitler was Helibase Manager in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013, until the HEB1 that was on order for the Type 1 team arrived.
From Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log…
—————————————————–
1115 ( 11:15 AM )
Received contact information for the manager of Maughn Ranches, Met with Ranch Manager Don Glascow and advised that we needed to create a land use agreement with the ranch for helicopter operations. Also advised that the original helibase site could not meet out needs, and asked if he had any suggestions for an alternate site. He agreed to meet me back at the Incident Command Post for further discussion.
1130 ( 11:30 AM )
Dan Sullivan, a qualified Air Support Group Supervisor from the Prescott National Forest arrived and offered to assist.
1150 ( 11:50 PM )
Dan Sullivan and myself met with Don Glascow at the Incident Command Post and discussed an alternative helibase location. Don offered a private airstrip owned by the ranch. Dan said that he would check out the airstrip to see if it could safely meet our needs.
————————————————————–
NOTE: ‘Dan Sullivan’ is never mentioned again in Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log.
So it is THIS entry in Zeitler’s log that proves Dan Sullivan was from the ‘Prescott National Forest’ ( AZ-PNF ), which ALSO means it was ‘highly likely’ he arrived driving some kind of standard all-aquamarine forestry greenish/bluish vehicle… possibly with 4 doors and possibly the ‘SUV/Suburban’ style that Bryan Smith recalls…
—————————————————
1130 ( 11:30 AM )
Dan Sullivan, a qualified Air Support Group Supervisor from the Prescott National Forest arrived and offered to assist.
—————————————————
And here is ‘Dan Sullivans’ actual ‘Resource Order’ which also proves he was from the Prescott National Forest.
Dan Sullivan ( Air Support Group Supervisor – ASGS ) had a ‘Resource
Assigned Unit ID of AZ-PNF ).
From PDF page 141 of the ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document.
————————————————–
Request number: O-30
Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 0934 ( 9:34 AM ) PNT
From: AZ-ADC ( Dispatch ) 800-309-7081
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: AIR SUPPORT GROUP SUPERVISOR (ASGS)
Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 1100 ( 11:00 AM ) PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: AZ-PDC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/13 1010 ( 10:10 AM ) PNT
Resource Assigned Unit ID: AZ-PNF ( Arizona – Prescott National Forest )
Resource Assigned: Sullivan, Dan (AZ-PDC) [EFF/AD]
M/D Ind.: D
Estimated Time Of Departure: 07/01/13 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) PNT
Esitmated Time Of Arrival: 07/01/13 1650 ( 4:50 PM ) PNT
Released Date: 07/03/13 1238 ( 12:38 PM ) PNT
Released To: PHOENIX SKY HARBOR INTL (PHX)
Travel Mode: ( No entry )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688 ( Yarnell Hill Fire )
Special Needs: NAME REQUEST FOR DAN SULLIVAN, RENTAL AOV, POV
Reporting Instructions: ICP MIDDLE CREEK SCHOOL IN PEEPLES
VALLEY 18912 HAYS RANCH ROAD, PEEPLES VALLEY AZ. REPORT
TO BRAD ZETTLER ( Yarnell Fire Helibase Manager )
————————————————–
Unfortunately, this ‘Dan Sullivan’ remains a ‘mystery man’ ( since no one ever interviewed him and there is no Unit Log from him ).
There also aren’t any pictures of him ( yet ).
Let me try to ‘run this to ground’ some more.
I seem to recall a ‘Prescott National Forest’ command vehicle just like the ones in the pictures about appearing along with a bunch of other ‘Prescott National Forest’ vehicles in the Granite Mountain funeral procession with the 19 white hearses, when the bodies were transported from Phoenix back to Prescott.
Let me go look at one or two of those MANY public videos of that ‘funeral procession’ and I’ll let you know if I see that vehicle in any of them.
Thanks again. Making progress here.
WTKTT:
I didn’t find a ‘Dan’ or ‘Daniel’ Sullivan in the USFS employee directory but did find one in the Park Service directory. When searching the web, I came across this (at first glance it looked like a dead end, which it still may be………but towards the bottom I found something very interesting.)
http://www.survivalsullivan.com/how-to-survive-a-wildfire/
Most of us wff can’t help but talk about in some way. He says Dan Sullivan is a pen name and he is from Romania – sure goes into some detail on the Yarnell fire though.
I’m looking over the resource order you posted. Released to Phoenix airport? Also authorized for personal vehicle or rental?
May be nothing.
Woodsman
“Sullivan” didn’t write that article. Someone named Karen Hendry did.
Also not really any “detail” about the Yarnell Fire. Just some boiler-plate about Brendan.
Interesting article, though.
Also interesting that you can’t find this guy in the USFS directory.
Off the top of my head, a lot of folks were “released” to the “Airport.” That sort of stymied me for awhile. As it turns out It’s probably kind of a generic term. The Arizona Dispatch Center is at the Phoenix Interagency Fire Center which is located at the Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport in Mesa, AZ I’m pretty sure that’s what that means.
Blast from the past;
“[Prescott National Forest] Hot Shots in Minnesota, Canada” from the Prescott Daily Courier, May 7, 1998
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=894&dat=19980507&id=TLUKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gk0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6679,1000200&hl=en
“This year’s Prescott Hot Shots crew consists of Superintendent Tony Schiacca, foremen Jeff Andrews and Curtis Heaton, and firefighters………Jayson Clawson, Dan Sullivan, Julian Magallanaz, Brian Knapp……….”
I’m pretty sure that’s the Dan Sullivan we’re talking about.
OK now it’s REALLY time for me to go back to bed. Curiosity is both my blessing and my curse.
I have no actual proof of this:
“I’m pretty sure that’s the Dan Sullivan we’re talking about.’
But I’d bet dollars to donuts that’s true, all things considered.
I guess I am just waking up via cell but did not like to catch Brian Knapp in Marti comment as a firefighter because it made me feel who now is yhf Craig Knapp in all this and is there any tie now to Knapp and the firefighters community… I am half awake but the name Knapp woke me up… Dan Sullivan… Let me go to Leonard Hunter because I think he has a business card of Dan Sullivan from 6-30-13…be back on that one
LOL!! Just woke up to see your comment.
Sorry, Joy!
I was thinking, I have NO CLUE who the rest of the people are! I was lucky to find Tony Sciacca, Jayson Clawsen, and Dan Sullivan mentioned close enough together to cut and paste them.
Awesome about the biz card!
Kudos to both of you, Joy and WTKTT.
I was awakened by a pretty powerful blood sugar crash (I just love my diabetes) in the middle of the night, and have been sitting here reading this and thinking about it as I sat here radically upping my glucose count while still halfway asleep — always kind of a mind-bending experience in itself.
The thing that was puzzling me was that I didn’t remember seeing a truck like this crossing the Air2Air video camera, other than the “Three Prescotteers” trucks. I do kind of use that as something of a visual data-base for most of the vehicles, generally speaking. Of course, it’s not perfect, but it’s one of the best things we’ve got, along with the Tom Story RHR parking lot collection (which I was also thinking back through with no results). We also have various and sundry photos of the Incident Command Post. Something might show up there.
Didn’t even think about this way of approaching it. Gary Olsen’s right. You have a spreadsheet mind, as well as, I bet, the best actual spreadsheets on the planet regarding this fire (which I’ve always known, anyway).
You might not be right about this, yet. On the other hand, you might not be right. Either way, it’s another chop chop on the whole tree of this fire.
It’s just mind-boggling, however, in its implications, regarding Gary Cordes. Whether or not you have correctly identified who actually rescued these two elders, the reality that it wasn’t Gary Cordes is serious. WTF???
Gary Cordes has some serious ‘splaining to do regarding not only this but a bunch of other things. Whether anybody will actually hold him accountable for these things (and I know you know exactly what I’m speaking of) is anybody’s guess.
OK I’m finally ready to go back to sleep. Again, thank you.
Namaste.
Oops. Typo. Meant to say::
“You might not be right about this, yet. On the other hand, you might be right. Either way, it’s another chop chop on the whole tree of this fire.”
We may never be able to fully identify who was driving that all-aquamarine 4-door SUV/Suburban that rescued Bryan Smith and his cousin Pearl Moore… but the most relevant thing is that we can now say for certain ( thanks to Joy and Mr. Smith ) that it was NOT Gary Cordes.
More to come on this…
Shakespeare, the writer of this wildfire, hits again.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 9, 2016 at 1:48 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> WWTKTT asked some additional questions along with Calvin to Glen Ilah
>> resident Bryan Smith and so I called and did not get and answer but I did
>> not just stop there. I sat down and began to write. When Bryan got the letter
>> he called me today 1-9-16 8:48am and spent over a half hour
>> answering the questions.
Thank you for following up with this, Joy.
I still think it’s important to know WHO actually rescued WHO that day, especially since some people that have already received ‘awards’ for certain things might not actually be the ones who deserve the REAL credit. ( Gary Cordes, etc. ).
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> The forestry truck aquamarine he said it was not a square box but he
>> kept stating “carry all- extended cab Suburban/van like feel to it but not
>> a normal truck if considered one. He is not familiar with firefighter trucks so
>> I am going to ask you WWTKTT to email me some photos of the men and
>> vehicles used that day to show him in person.
Again… thank you, Joy. That’s important information and it pretty much just confirms that it could NOT have been SPGS1 Gary Cordes who was rescuing both Bryan and his cousin Pearl… as he seemed to claim he did in both his Unit Log and during his ADOSH interview.
That ‘all-aquamarine’ forestry greenish truck color is ‘reserved’ for vehicles that are assigned to US Forestry installations such as National Parks and whatnot.
That’s the same ‘aquamarine’ truck color used for all of the following Arizona vehicles…
1. The Prescott National Forest vehicles… including the ‘Prescott Hotshots’. vehicles.
2. The Blue Ridge Hotshot Vehicles ( based at the Coconino National Forest ).
3. Other US Forestry installation vehicles.
The PROBLEM we have now is that other than the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshot’ vehicles that were there working the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013, the evidence record only contains ONE ‘other’ vehicle that might match that ‘all-aquamarine’ description.
That would be ‘off-the-radar’ hire Jason Clawson from the Prescott National Forest.
He WAS driving an ‘all-aquamarine’ 2-door extended cab pickup with a camper top that day the whole time he was in Yarnell.
However… the evidence record also says that once he and fellow PNF ‘off-the-radar’ hires Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell arrived there on Shrine Road in time for Aaron Hulburd himself to film his ‘Helmet Cam’ videos and capture the MADYAY traffic coming from Granite Mountain… Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell definitely appear to have REMAINED there on Shrine Road and never participated in anything that was going on down in Glen Ilah.
The evidence record says that NONE of these men ( including Jason Clawson with his all-aquamarine pickup truck ) ever left the Shrine Road area following the MAYDAY traffic and they were already THERE when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown showed up in their Polaris Ranger on that ‘ground rescue mission’.
Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell then just ‘joined’ Frisby and Brown on that ‘ground rescue mission’ ( in their own ATV/UTVs ) and they all ‘broke through’ together and all five of them eventually ended up at the actual deployment site.
So even though the vehicle that Bryan Smith seems to now be describing SOUNDS like the one that PNF employee Jason Clawson was driving… the evidence record currently suggests there’s just no way that Clawson could have been down there in Glen Ilah being the one to ‘rescue’ Bryan Smith and his cousin Pearl Moore.
And, as has already been established, the evidence record also says that the only other known ‘all-aquamarine’ vehicles there that afternoon were the ‘Blue Ridge’ vehicles and there is no evidence that ANY of those 4 vehicles of theirs ever left the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot during the timeframe in question.
So this one remains a real head-scratcher.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> The door he was to enter was locked and had to make room for him to enter.
It’s still pretty important to know if we are talking about a 2-door, or a 4-door vehicle.
In other words… some people call an ‘extended cab’ pickup one of those where it still only has 2-doors and you have to still sort of ‘crawl’ into the back seat.
Does Bryan remember having to do THAT… or did the vehicle actually have FOUR doors and he was able to just ‘get in’ via his own door once whoever that was just ‘made room for him to enter’.
It would still help a lot in nailing down this vehicle to know if it really did have just 2 doors or whether it was a 4-door truck.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> He said the driver is not Gary Cordes for the thinner younger man than
>> Cordes had a kept up trimmed beard and I do not know who the zig zag man
>> is but he said like zig zag man but no so pointy.
Well… then things get even stranger… because THAT ‘zig zag man’ and the beard description actually means it COULD have still been PNF employee Jason Clawson, who WAS driving an ‘all-aquamarine’ 2-door extended cab pickup that day ( with a camper top and towing an ATV on a trailer ).
Even PNF employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell had that kind of ‘triangle’ beard… but Yowell was driving an all-white pickup with green stripes that day.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> The driver pulled up and said “get in” as he unlocked vehicle and moved stuff
>> to make room for Bryan and Bryan said he had to go get Pearl still..
So… when Bryan first flagged down this ‘all-aquamarine’ vehicle… the driver still had to ‘move stuff’ so that Bryan could ‘ride shotgun’ and get in the passenger side?
Again… I know it might be hard for Bryan to recall… but it would still be helpful if he can remember if it was just one of those 2-door extended cab trucks where you can carry passengers but they have to sort of ‘crawl’ into the back jump seats… or whether it really was a 4-door vehicle.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Than I asked about helmet of driver and he said it was more like
>> a baseball cap—no hard hat/helmet.
Curiouser and curiouser, then.
Jason Clawson, the ONLY other person we know of who was driving an ‘all-aquamarine’ truck that day, was ALWAYS wearing a WHITE Helmet that day… as far as we know.
His fellow PNF employee, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, was, however, wearing a ‘ball cap’ until shortly after the MAYDAY calls and he also has a ‘triangular beard’.
So there are some details here that almost make it SOUND like it could have been Prescott National Forest employee(s) Jason Clawson or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… but the evidence record really also seems to indicate that is impossible.
All that being said… do me a favor and have Mr. Bryan Smith watch the following VIDEO and see if he recognizes either Jason Clawson, his ‘all-aquamarine’ pickup truck, or even ( perhaps ) if he recognizes KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and his ‘camo-ballcap’.
NOTE: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell switched from his ‘camo-ballcap’ to a BLACK Helmet right in the middle of that original ‘Helmet Cam’ video shot by Aaron Hulburd, and then Yowell never went back to his ‘camo-ballcap’ the rest of the afternoon/evening.
The following VIDEO isn’t really a VIDEO at all. It’s more like just a SLIDESHOW.
But it DOES show clearly this other ‘all-aquamarine’ 2-door pickup truck that PNF employee Jason Clawson was driving that day… and it DOES have some clear pictures of what Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, and Aaron Hulburd all looked like that day.
Aaron Hulburd himself is hard to find pictures of, but as this ‘slideshow’ shows, he managed to take a pretty good ‘self portrait’ during his own ‘Helmet Cam’ video.
YouTube video title: PNF-employees-at-YHF
Direct link to this YouTube video…
http://youtu.be/q-QOU1JgEag
YouTube ‘About’ information…
——————————————————————–
Various photos from the public evidence record of Prescott National Forest ( PNF ) employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell working at the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013. Includes photos of the vehicles each one was driving that day. PNF employee Aaron Hulburd is the one who actually filmed all of the ‘Helmet Cam’ videos that were eventually released. Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell also actively participated in the ‘ground rescue’ mission following the deployment, even though they were actually just ‘freelancing’ that afternoon and had no ‘official’ fire command assignments.
——————————————————————–
At +10 seconds into this video is a clear view of the ‘all-aquamarine’ 2-door pickup ( camper top ) that Jason Clawson was driving on June 30, 2013 in Yarnell.
It’s followed by a closeup picture of Jason Clawson ( in profile ) showing that he was, in fact, sporting a very neatly trimmed ‘trianglular’ style beard/goatee that day.
But again… Jason Clawson was ALWAYS wearing a WHITE Helmet that day, and there is no evidence that he ever left the Shrine Road area either just before, or anytime after the ‘deployment radio traffic’.
Either way… thanks once again, Joy… and just see if Mr. Bryan Smith recognizes ANYTHING in this slideshow/video… trucks or people.
Thanks WTKTT.
Real headscratcher. Even with the confusion, I think the really important part is that, apparently Gary Cordes wasn’t the one involved in this rescue. Hmmmmmmm.
Along with a number of other Hmmmmmmmmmms.
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 11, 2016 at 8:20 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Real headscratcher.
Yes, it is. I suppose it is *possible* that Jason Clawson *could* have somehow done all of the following and ended up being the one to rescue Bryan Smith and Pearl Moore ( but you tell me how *likely* ). My guess would be ‘not very’.
1. Jason Clawson left the Shrine Parking lot on his own ( and left Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell there to keep filming things ) and pretty much followed Tony Sciacca out of Shrine Road and down to the RHR.
2. Jason Clawson had a ‘ballcap’ in his all-aquamarine truck and he took his white helmet off and put on the ‘ballcap’.
3. At the RHR… Clawson ‘unhitched’ his trailer with his ATV on it… and ended up one of the ones dashing into Glen Ilah to try and get citizens out.
4. He rescued Bryan Smith and Pearl Moore ( in his all-aquamarine pickup sans trailer now… and sporting his neatly trimmed ‘triangular beard’ and ballcap ).
5. He only did the one rescue, hitched his trailer and ATV back up to his all-aquamarine pickup… and then was BACK up on Shrine Road at the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot again ( with Hulburd and Yowell again ) just in time to appear in the original Hulburd ‘Helmet Cam’ video ( M2U00265 ) which captured the ‘deployment radio traffic’ starting at 4:39 PM.
( Again… my vote on all that having happened would range from ‘not very likely’ to ‘basically impossible’ )
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Even with the confusion, I think the really important part is that,
>> apparently Gary Cordes wasn’t the one involved in this
>> rescue. Hmmmmmmm.
Well… unless Bryan Smith is really, really mistaken about what VEHICLE was rescuing him ( and his cousin Peal Moore ), I guess there really isn’t any ‘apparently’ about it. The only huge mystery now would be WHY Gary Cordes would be taking credit ( in his own words, in his own ADOSH interview ) for a ‘rescue’ that he didn’t perform.
Could it be… ( WARNING: imagineering ahead )… that by the time Cordes did his ADOSH interview there was already this ‘agreement’ that someone ELSE’S presence at the fire needed to be HIDDEN?… so he was taking credit for something he knew the details about ( but didn’t actually do ) in order to help HIDE the fact that person was ever even THERE that day?
Like someone ELSE ( other than Clawson? ) from the Prescott National Forest ) who was there in ANOTHER all-aquamarine vehicle that day?
( END / IMAGINEERING )
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Along with a number of other Hmmmmmmmmmms.
The ONLY other all-aquamarine ‘pickup’ that we know of, OTHER than Jason Clawson’s, would, in fact, be the Blue Ridge Chase truck.
Here’s an interesting photo that you’ve looked at a lot… but look again at the LEFT side of this photo…
The New York Daily News
Article Title: Wildfire in Arizona kills 19 firefighters
Published: Monday, July 1, 2013, 8:02 AM by Bill Hutchinson
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/yeah-article-1.1386796
First photo at top of that article is that now-famous ‘twilight’ blue-tint photo taken by David Kadlubowski, Associated Press there at the RHR parking lot.
It’s the one that shows Paul Musser sitting there in his dark-blue pickup there as it was beginng to get DARK in Yarnell… but look again to the LEFT in that photo.
There is that ‘other’ all-aquamarine 2-door pickup.
It’s actually the Blue Ridge Chase truck ( pretty much exactly where it was seen in the Tom Story photographs ) still sitting there, even though the other three Blue Ridge vehicles had already evacuated back up north to the ICP.
If Bryan Smith looks at THAT all-aquamarine pickup ( 2-door, no camper back like Clawson had ) and says “That’s it!… that’s the vehicle!”… then I guess there is going to have to be another ‘head scratching’ moment figuring out how/when that Blue Ridge Chase truck got away from that RHR parking lot even though other photographic and video evidence says it never did.
Followup…
Not sure if you’ve ever actually seen this… but it’s the VIDEO equivalent of that now-famous ‘David Kadlubowski’ blue-twilight photo.
A VIDEO that was shot at about the same time, from the exact same location.
It is still sitting in the AZCENTRAL Video archive at this URL…
AZCENTRAL – VIDEO ARCHIVES
Raw: Scene from the Yarnell Hill Fire command center
Video Title: The Yarnell Hill fire has engulfed half the town and
claimed the lives of 19 hotshot firefighters from Prescott, Arizona.
http://archive.azcentral.com/video/#/Raw%3A+Scene+from+the+Yarnell+Hill+Fire+command+center/2519031306001
This is the VIDEO version of that same ‘blue-tint’ David Kadlubowski photo taken at the same exact spot this video was shot. I don’t know if Kadlubowski himself shot this video, or not, but if he didn’t then it was by someone standing right next to him when he took that ‘blue-tint’ twilight photo.
This VIDEO also shows Paul Musser sitting there in the RHR parking lot in his dark-blue 2-door pickup.
But notice on the LEFT… there is that all-aquamarine Blue Ridge ‘Chase’ truck again.
Also notice at the VERY start of the video that it was captured ‘moving’.
In the first few frames of the VIDEO we see this BR Chase Truck ‘rolling forward’ and seemingly ‘pulling in’ to that spot where it would then park just before David Kadlubowski would take his now-famous ‘blue-twilight’ photo.
The BRAKE lights are even seen coming ‘on/off’ as that Blue Ridge Chase truck ‘settled’ into that parking spot, and shining its headlights right onto Paul Musser.
This is, of course, WAY LATER than ( hours later ) than any ‘rescues’ that were performed that day… but between this video and the Kadlubowski still-photo it provides a pretty clear view of that all-aquamarine BR Chase truck… and Bryan Smith should be able to say whether there is any chance at all THAT was the all-aquamarine pickup that ‘rescued’ him and Pearl Moore.
so hard to watch Fred Brown’s home on fire here–shew.
http://archive.azcentral.com/video/#/Raw%3A+Scene+from+the+Yarnell+Hill+Fire+command+center/2519031306001
Man.
MY REPLY TO:The ONLY other all-aquamarine ‘pickup’ that we know of, OTHER than Jason Clawson’s, would, in fact, be the Blue Ridge Chase truck.—————
NOPE. I showed that photo to him. Not it.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 11, 2016 at 10:12 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> MY REPLY TO:The ONLY other all-aquamarine ‘pickup’
>> that we know of, OTHER than Jason Clawson’s, would,
>> in fact, be the Blue Ridge Chase truck.—————
>>
>> NOPE. I showed that photo to him. Not it.
Thank you again, Joy. We’re actually making good PROGRESS here, thanks to you and Mr. Bryan Smith.
There is ‘another’ candidate. His name is Dan Sullivan and he was in Yarnell that Sunday as an ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ).
Dan Sullivan WORKED for the ‘Prescott National Forest’, just like Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
Since this ‘Dan Sullivan’ worked for ‘Prescott National Forest’, there is every chance in the world he was there in Yarnell with an ‘all-aquamarine’ forestry bluish/green vehicle the same color as Jason Clawson’s… but possibly ‘4 doors’ and ‘SUV/Suburban’ style.
See this new post above with more about this ‘Dan Sullivan’ guy…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-322464
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 11, 2016 at 8:20 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Real headscratcher. Even with the confusion, I think the really
>> important part is that, apparently Gary Cordes wasn’t the one
>> involved in this rescue. Hmmmmmmm.
Agree… but obviously you can/should SCRATCH my replies above since Joy has now CONFIRMED ( via Bryan Smith )…
1. It was NOT Gary Cordes’ vehicle.
2. It was NOT Jason Clawson’s vehicle.
3. It was NOT the Blue Ridge ‘Chase’ pickup truck.
See the following post up above for a new suggestion as to who it MIGHT have been…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-322464
I am here WWTKTT—busy day.
Sorry for delay—I need a nap.
To the loved one of the GMHS who has come to Yarnell looking to meet us and spend time with us- drop a message at 480-280-5813 and as soon as I get the message I will try and call as fast as I can but heads up I do not check messages too much like others do—but eventually I do. One of my family members do not get my way of doing things and one even said they called me four times well guess what the 480# is somewhere on a cliff that has had all kinds of weather on it so I do not have it so I would not know you rang me four times and if you do not leave a message I won’t even know you ever called.
One thing is Sonny recently mentioned misinformation in regards to my family here and they read this page and you never saw a more pissed off New Yorker so he says the comment and I get the heat. Seems familiar in the aftermath of the fire…
My day outdoors began with husband going over some stuff and giving him my laundry because I like mine washed and dried in dryer not in icy cold weather via clothesline…
We learned alot today at the senior center—one that Monday and Fridays is best time to eat at the center— the lady who lost her home Roberta (Bert) Era (cook) who was not able to rebuild because in that area of Manzanita/Sesame area they required rebuilt had to be stick and her insurance would not cover it nor did the YHRG assist in the process of a rebuilt so I cannot understand that one—???? Yet Lloyd who lost his best pal after the YHF just told us TERESA yes TERESA and no not LONG ISLAND MEDIUM TERESA but our local Teresa had a serious stroke and Raul has been so strong and we told Lloyd to let them know we will shift our plans and spend time with them after lunch and the Yarnell book barn so then I went to post office and mailed off the court thing WWTKTT—
January 11, 2016 , 1:47 pm Acceptance YARNELL, AZ 85362 and headed to Prescott January 11, 2016 , 4:14 pm Departed Post Office YARNELL, AZ 85362
okay. 1/11/16 Monday 3:27pm…going down Deer Track to confirm WWTKTT ?s…”My poor gout” OW!!! I pull in and see Bruce across the street packing to move and since no answer at Bryan’s I walk over to Bruce and we talked about Nancy Knight who I met over the Holidays is his neighbor across the way. We talk about upcoming interview. At 3:40pm Bryan and Vivian Smith pull in—“I adore Vivian” a soul straight from Michigan replanted in Yarnell—I said “You got Bryan running” and she replied “somebody gotsa run- I can’t. Shew” Vivian sat down and at times foreground to Bryan and wanted to talk about her cousin Pearl Moore— I began to show Investigative Media and the videos and emails and all people/vehicles—
Bryan said “no trailer on vehicle” Definitely FOUR doors and not 2 with 2 tiny ones you crawl into—IT IS NOT GARY CORDES—The vehicle looked like Clawson’s vehicle but FOR SURE four doors and was not a camper but more like a carry all connected suburban feel to it-
The driver was tall and taller than Bryan who is six feet tall. Guy was older than guys in photo but younger than Cordes. Bryan got in front seat to drive up to get Pearl out of the road and he held her up and sat in back seat with her—him entering one door and her entering the other but sitting in back together. Bryan felt the driver had to be an engineer/captain/high up/supervisor the way it was laid out as well as the driver had alot ALOT of rolled up maps /plans. Vivian’s voice when she speaks YOU FEEL IT and sometimes it has “cheese and crackers” in it and it comes from deep within and she said if it wasnt for that fire her 85 yo cousin would be with her today because before the fire she only took vitamins and new meds for the new diagnosis of dementia but after the fire she got lung cancer—Their yard when they came back had red retardant powder throughout the yard and lawn furniture and had truck tracks on their property circling all around. The beard topic he said was like a clean trimmed santa claus full face hair beard yet at the chin area reminded him more of some zig zag character but kept shorter not pointy very cleaned up and the beard fit and formed his face like it was part of him where some people wear facial hair and it looks like a man wearing a stache or go-t…normal facial design- nothing different looking—Sonny came over to their place and needed me so I had to cut it after 35 minutes. By 4:29pm I went to Jim Nagel because Trish Edwards stated Jim has an excellent video from Saturday so when I arrive he has note outside “napping. catch you later.” so then I swing by to relay a message to Brent Yadon’s caretaker and than I stopped at Kay and Duane Zuehlke’s place who has resided there since 1986…23016 S Lakewood Dr… .22 acres. it is a 1972/add on 1979 home. It has a great defensible space in front with 2 trees and kept up and clear in back but his neighbor has huge ass trees so the neighbor’s trees are really a concern to their property because here this property is perfect with defensible space yet if their home burned it would of been due to the neighbor’s big ass trees too near to the rear of their home. I just told them I just popped in to see how they are—Kay says still has her vertigo and asthma but “okie dokie” and they explained that 6-30-13 that they did their normal day and did not know about the fire and Sheriff Jeep posse knocked on their door between 3-4pm and told them time to evacuate. It seems Lakewood folks did get a posse warning but the ones who homes were ablazed did not—I think what I am seeing is more chaos and mixed moments each one faced—
I am not a supporter to one thing RTS states and that is solely laying blame on the GMHS when I have had too many even prior GMHS that I think after MISSING ELEMENTS surface RTS will realize than and only then why I do not support his blame game solely on the men. I understand the end result but I also know none of us are seeing the WHOLE PICTURE and the whole picture is not how RTS recently summarized things…and saying they were hungover because many were not hungover nor had any alcohol and they are not followers—
QUESTION- what three men are in the flag rising photo that begins the SAIR?
page one has been proved wrong with this sentence:
“There is a gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the Granite Mountain IHC.”
wtf?
why is that acceptable behavior from an investigation team?
On June 29 2013; at 1924- did they have retardant drops done already and how many?
In SAIR:” What kinds of signals in the fire environment make the hair on the back of your neck
stand up, and why?” I can tell you Sonny would say the smoke signals he saw that day how they turned from skunky white to an inferno hell of black smoke. AND the weather in the distance—
I don’t know of anyone who says there should be no accountability for serious screw-ups on fires, whether or not they result in injuries or deaths. If someone makes a mistake in spite of having been exposed to all of the necessary training and experience, then there should be repercussions commensurate with the act. It could be a written reprimand in a personnel file, suspension from work, removal of fire qualifications, removal from an incident management team, or termination. We need more accountability, not less and less taking awards and accolades and moving your firefighter men and hiding them around here and there because its wrong—SPEAK UP—
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
JANUARY 11, 2016 AT 1:52 AM
Thank you for following up with this, Joy.
I still think it’s important to know WHO actually rescued WHO that day, especially since some people that have already received ‘awards’ for certain things might not actually be the ones who deserve the REAL credit. ( Gary Cordes, etc. ).
MY REPLY:
You are so welcome. I also feel it is important the right person gets known for who saved who and Gary apologizes for taking credit nor ever visiting the couple he saved since the fire—that would be the final confirmation is have Gary Cordes be in same room with Vivian and Bryan Smith and state he saved him and Pearl Moore. I would pay money to see that moment.
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“That ‘all-aquamarine’ forestry greenish truck color is ‘reserved’ for vehicles that are assigned to US Forestry installations such as National Parks and whatnot.”
MY REPLY: Bryan was very firm it was a aquamarine four door with alot of maps/plans rolled up and baseball cap and beard and younger than Cordes and not too much older than Clawson and Yowell and would like more pics of Yowell to confirm NO. .
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What do you think to this:
“As long as the accountability falls on the shoulders of the firefighters…we’re going to have some issues,” Sciacca said.
So how is it RTS is laying accountability there…without having all the pieces public yet?
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I also want to meet the POWER house in the City of Prescott who did some shady areas there in regards to the GMHS/fire? Maybe I already met you, huh.
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For my own investigation- is Tom Tobin related to Andy Tobin who hired Tony Sciacca who Tom hired and retired Tony and HOW did he end up at the YHF? and is he still a trainer? even after the chaos and the mess of the YHF?
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I could see me and Ted Ralston hitting the streets and really TEACH locals on defensible space— He does a decent job.
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I would love to see Rhimes write on here—he was part of the original beginning of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
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I would love some fire author to organize a part of their book with a yearbook feel with sections of
helping the general public see what IS a hotshot/firefighter/wildland firefighter/hybrids…what IS a smokejumper and the different positions and ranks within each organizations of the firefighting community so the general public can get educated like Tony said taking the heat off the firefighters as being held responsible for a homeowner’s lack of understanding and comprehension WHAT IT MEANS to do defensible space. That is the kind of pamphlets that should be at real estate offices when you buy a new home…like Stephen Pyne said the fires are changing…more homes are built in rugged areas—so why if a home is built out there is it a firefighter’s responsibility especially if your home is tucked in dense vegetation especially right against the home with a fireplace?
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Willis said. “That’s what we do, is hit these fires right away.” (7/1/2012 12:01:00 AM)
Ok Willis- you sais this one year one day before your men died…tell me what happened to the YHF? Willis, have you met Nancy Knight or George Dubaskas or the many others who lost their loved one after the fire…can you tell them that you did that on YHF???
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Robert C Jay Jr- would love to see you writing on here.
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I like WWTKTT…for the longest time I felt you were female. The reason I like you is my life is away from my NORM and I have been pioneering and trailing and doing zip to my NORM and so you keep me focused to the questions at hand…if I seem to ramble you have a way to swirl back to the POINTS needed— THANK YOU!
At 9:02pm I did check my voicemails-
it seems someone wants to SPEAK UP and looking at location it is 11:02pm there so be here tomorrow typing what Joe says about the YHF.
Don’t PRAY FOR…but pray with…for His will…and as I said from day one the truth will come out—
Monday January 11 2016 8:13am
son of George Dubaskas left voicemail last night and I felt inappropriate to call late so I just called.
It was an appx. 17 minute call.
17490 W Westward- mobile home and shed and in history of satellite imagery did not have defensible space around home—not that it matters because the fire should of been put out long before this point but reason it quickly burned was a lot of green/fuel around the home and how I try to educate everyone the IMPORTANCE of defensible space…so I am noting it here anyways as a home that it should of never burned yet had it been properly prepared for a fire may have not burned like such and so I hope local firefighters see that 85 y.o. folks who cannot do defensible space for themselves and are on budget should qualify a couple like that to have it done for free by you all versus you all laying and watching tv as I have seen many times at the fire dept when I come announced or unannounced and question the weight of some- those people with weight on the department should be the ones educating themselves and getting the tools to get this handled- my way of thinking versus you having a cop donut gut— get out and be productive! Help the elders and disabled-
Delores was wife of George and died since the fire and the son “Joe” stated she died of deep depression.
On Monday, Sept. 8, 2014, Dolores June Dubaskas peacefully passed away at the age of 85. After losing their home in Yarnell and all of their worldly possessions in the Yarnell fire of 2013, they relocated to Selinsgrove, where they were in embraced by the Dubaskas family.
Currently George, age 85, has very bad dementia/Alzheimer’s and now resides in a nursing home. He does not remember this fire or town at all.
I am sorry for any locals reading this that knew him and this all happened after the fire his health. I am so sorry I just wrote that because I know it will make some who knew them weep. Yet it is true. He is no longer the George we all knew—
6-30-13 and his parents’ account of the fire from the son’s mouth word by word said to me the desert walker—-
“My parents were at church that morning and when they came home they took their hearing aids out and took a nap. Their dogs jumped on the bed awakening them and George went into living room to see what the dogs were trying to tell them. George saw out the window Yetta’s home on fire(next door neighbor and now too deceased) and he remember he is elderly and just woke up & went to get his wife when he realized the back of his shirt was burning and then discovered jumping ashes from the his own on fire hallway did that- his own home was on fire. SO slow due to waking up and age he quickly gathered her purse for her and got her in truck as he went back into the home. He took so long in her mind so she gets out of truck and falls down and injures her shins very bad (mind you all she had to be nervous with being blind and hearing a hissing noise near) so George put her back in truck realizing he had to get truck away from home asap—propane tank was hissing people and as he pulled away it blew up (that propane tank was next to his truck so he was lucky on timing he backed out- could of been another casualty to the fire possibly had the tank blew a few seconds earlier) and they drove away with no one around them—no evacuation notice either. no vehicles present on street where they lived. Then they went to a hotel and their family came out from PA. They stayed there until they could come home and Joe asked the sheriff how come no one alerted his parents? The officer stated we did by intercom of the car driving through subdivision and we could not go door to door for everyone. Joe to this day wonders of the carelessness of the local fire departments early on putting this out. EARLY ON is key part here.
Sorry for your loss Joe and I know you lay a lot of blame on the fire…We will get the TRUTHS out for you…Nothing left— all gone—but the truth does remain!
Thank you Joe for sharing yours and your parents’ account of the YHF.
I am happy you were glad to speak to us- it is MORE accounts like this that need to surface to properly assess a fire versus waiting for it to be published in some book to give an author an income—-
—“Currently George, age 85, has very bad dementia/Alzheimer’s and now resides in a nursing home. He does not remember this fire or town at all.
I am sorry for any locals reading this that knew him and this all happened after the fire his health. I am so sorry I just wrote that because I know it will make some who knew them weep. Yet it is true. He is no longer the George we all knew—’—
Dorman Olsen- local realtor stated today that George started to get dementia before the fire
—-maybe Joe just did not note it being in another state???
Just found this:
“12/10/2015 4:30:00 PM
Attorney advocates for Yarnell fire victims with untested legal theory” from the Verde Independent.
http://verdenews.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=68408
“PHOENIX — An attorney for Yarnell residents who were burned out in the 2013 blaze contends Arizona must compensate them for their losses because it failed to confine the lightning-caused fire to the state trust lands where it started.
In what he admits is an untested legal theory in Arizona, David Abney cited common law going back to England in the 1400s which imposed liability on property owner who lets a fire escape and injure a neighbor. He said it’s irrelevant that the state was not responsible for the blaze in the first place.
“It’s very close to a form of strict liability,’ Abney said.
The somewhat unique claim comes in new legal filings as Abney asks the state Court of Appeals to allow the homeowners to pursue their lawsuit against the state. It is part of his effort to give his clients a chance to make their claim to a jury.
He needs appellate court intervention because Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Richard Gama earlier this year threw out the case after concluding the state, in fighting the fire on public lands, had no duty to specifically protect Yarnell residents and their property. Abney is making various arguments — including the one about neighbor liability — in a bid to have the lawsuit reinstated.”
So I guess that’s the argument the attorney is making.
Further:
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But Abney is not relying entirely on this theory.
He points out that the state did, in fact, try to fight the fire beyond the trust lands. And at that point, Abney said, the state assumed the duty to protect the homeowners — and they had a right to assume it would be done properly.
He compared it to a situation where someone passing by a pond sees a child who is drowning.
“I can just keep walking,’ he said. “I have no liability. I don’t have to rescue the child.’
Abney said all that changes if the person does jump in.
“But if I see a child drowning in a pond and I leap to the child’s aid and try to rescue the child and drown the child because I do it in a negligent way, the I am liable,’ he explained.
The same is true here. He said once the firefighting efforts expanded beyond state lands, those fighting the fire had a responsibility to do it in a responsible fashion.
And Abney said if he is allowed to take the case to trial, the evidence will back him up.
“The Yarnell Hill fire was just a comic opera that ended in complete tragedy, not only for the people of Yarnell but the 19 firefighters that got cut off (from an escape route) and killed because of the state’s utter incompetence,’ he said.
The attorney said “…. but the 19 firefighters that got cut off (from an escape route) and killed because of the state’s utter incompetence.’
He’s obviously NOT been reading these IM posts.
WRONG!
It was the GMHS’s ‘utter incompetence’ leaving a perfectly good Safety Zone, without a required Lookout or notifying AA of their intentions to do so, and traveling through the thick unburned brush into chutes and chimneys and ultimately into a brush choked bowl, fecklessly attempting to cut a Deployment one instead of RUNNING to the BSR, at the worst possible time with aggressive winds and fire behavior!
The AZ State Forestry was utterly incompetent in many ways that day, however, they were NOT responsible for the GMHS utter incompetence – the GMHS were big boys, and they did that all on their own.
I have to respectfully disagree there Robert the Second. The fellow that worked for the state that did not take the lightening strike seriously but told the Yarnell fire department to do as you wish ought to be canned. He should have been screaming to get that fire out under the extreme fire danger conditions. Yarnell should have taken to the hills immediately as well. That indeed was incompetence and the factor that ended up killing 19 men.
Sonny,
You posted: “The fellow that worked for the state that did not take the lightening strike seriously but told the Yarnell fire department to do as you wish ought to be canned.”
No issues whatsoever here. I agree totally on this point.
You also posted: “That indeed was incompetence and the factor that ended up killing 19 men.”
This is where we disagree. But not sure what you are referring to with the word “THAT.” If you’re re3ferring to incompetence, are you referring to (1) the YH Fire mismanagement or (2) the failure to evacuate the town of Yarnell? It really doesn’t matter.
The point I made was that EACH WF RESOUIRCE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY AND WELFARE. The individual WFF Resources are solely and independently responsible for their own safety and welfare, no matter what the IMT’s did or did not do or whether some WF Overhead asked and/or ordered and/or whatever the GMHS to perform some assignment.
They could have and should have followed The WFF Rules and/or declined the assignment and stayed put in their perfectly good Safety Zone.
If you still disagree then we’ll have to respectfully agree to disagree.
That is a fine way to say it Robert 2nd. Looks like you will go a long way and good work toward your fire fighting efforts.
Indeed there was much incompetence here starting from the very beginning. Doesn’t take a genius to see that this fire should have been attended to on the very first hour it began. Much incompetence there but much more down the line.
“The point I made was that EACH WF RESOUIRCE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY AND WELFARE. The individual WFF Resources are solely and independently responsible for their own safety and welfare, no matter what the IMT’s did or did not do or whether some WF Overhead asked and/or ordered and/or whatever the GMHS to perform some assignment.”
Well stated…I would describe this as the fire manager’s ‘wet dream.’ No matter what, overhead is not responsible for the safety and welfare of those below them. All these years I thought the higher I climbed the ladder, the more I get paid and the more responsibility I have. It’s actually more pay and less responsibility. Sweet!
Do you believe that there is not one single ‘atomic molecule’ of responsibility for the deaths of GM on anyone other than the leadership of GM that day? I don’t know the answer so I’m still looking. Can you answer this with 100% certainty?
How about this: Were these individuals “solely and independently responsible for their own safety and welfare?”
•Shawn Blazer
•Scott Charlson
•Edrik Gomez
•Matt Hammer
•Steven Caleb Renno
•Bryan Rich
•David Steele
Does this fit your premise? Should they have known of fuel system issues?
Either I am totally mistaken or I have been trained by a completely different set of Fire Gods.
Thank you.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
YES, I do believe that there is not one single ‘atomic molecule’ of responsibility for the deaths of GM on anyone other than the leadership of GM that day. ABSOLUTELY!
You are a qualified WF supervisor from what I gather, so are YOU PERSONALLY AND/OR PROFESSIONALLY responsible for the ultimate safety and welfare of EACH AND EVERY WFF you supervise OR is their own supervisor(s), e;g. Crew Boss and/or Squad Bosses, responsible for them?
The DIVS Task Book (link below), under the ‘Competency’ heading, states that a DIVS is to “LEAD assigned personnel … and INFLUENCE, GUIDE, and DIRECT assigned personnel to accomplish objectives and desired outcomes in a rapidly changing, high-risk environment.”
Under the section listed as: ‘Behavior – ENSURE the SAFETY, WELFARE, AND ACCOUNTABILITY OF ASSIGNED PERSONNEL, it states that a DIVS is to “9. ENSURE ASSIGNED RESOURCES ARE FOLLOWING SAFETY GUIDELINES APPROPRIATELY.”
Webster’s Dictionary defines ENSURE as “to make sure, certain, or safe : guarantee.”
So, according to the DIVS Task Book, and Webster’s Dictionary definition of ‘ensure,’ it appears that you are correct and therefore, as a DIVS, YOU are responsible for their safety and welfare.
Under the “Behavior: Gather, analyze, and validate information pertinent to the incident or event and make recommendations for setting priorities” section, a DIVS is to:
“27. Identify kind, type, and number of resources required to achieve control objectives.
• CONSIDER weather, fuels, terrain, fire behavior, kinds and types of resources, resource availability, and SAFETY FACTORS.”
The above quotes are cited from the NWCG Division/Group Supervisor (DIVS) Task Book PMS 311-09 and all EMPHASIS IS ADDED.
However, considering the wildland fire Span of Control principle of 5:1, a supervisor is responsible for 3 to 7 employees with the ‘RULE OF THUMB being 5 subordinates.
How can YOU OR ANY OTHER SUPERVISOR be responsible for those beyond that number. That is a Crew Leader responsibility and NOT the DIVS.
I see where you’re going here, I think?
You make a very valid point using the Iron Complex fatalities as an example here. Given that, I’ll have to clarify that EACH WF RESOURCE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY AND WELFARE while on the firelines.
The aircraft issue is quite a bit different and so, there are any number of individuals responsible in that case, e.g. pilots, helitack and helibase personnel, and many others, The same goes for any travel, and those are covered in the Single Resource Boss Task Book. As I told you earlier, neither the DIVS or myself as the SOF2 that Iron 44 day, could stop the tragic, what-would-become-fatal helicopter operation after several hours on the Command frequency with the Branch Director attempting to STOP the operation.
The SINGLE RESOURCE BOSS (Crew Boss, Engine Boss, Heavy Equipment Boss, Felling Boss, and Firing Boss) TASK BOOK PMS 311-13 covers even more safety rules and ‘guidelines.’
I have a real problem with most anything SAFETY being listed as a ‘GUIDELINE’ except for the contentious safety helmet issue while riding a side-by-side UTV. I’m all for them on ATV’s but take issue with them for UTV operations (another issue).
The basic Type 2 WFF in the FFT2 Task Book is responsible for his safety as well as others. “21. LOOK OUT FOR THE SAFETY AND WELFARE OF SELF and other crew members and IMMEDIATELY REPORT ANY THREAT TO THEIR SAFETY & …. IDENTIFY SITUATIONS WHICH WARRANT IMMEDIATE ACTION AND/OR REPORTING, BASED ON THE STANDARD FIRE ORDERS AND WATCH OUT SITUATIONS, AND URBAN INTERFACE WATCH OUT SITUATIONS. …”
According to this Task Book, the Type 2 has a lot of responsibility for being a Rookie and that involves ‘Leading Up’ to the supervisor level any hazards based on The WFF Rules.
I don’t know what else you’re seeking here. I do NOT micromanage when I supervise. It’s Leader’s Intent and go to work after any questions and/or clarifications. I leave it to them to safely and effectively accomplish their duties, which primarily includes their Number One responsibility – ensuring the safety and welfare of those they supervise.
And the GMHS leadership should have declined the unsafe order to leave the black when they did. The GMHS is responsible for their Bad Decisions that day, primarily the GMHS leadership, with some culpability with the GMHS Crewmembers themselves to not speak up and/or force the issue.
By analogy, if you get in an accident and cause fatalities, while driving your car RECKLESSLY, who is responsible for those deaths? The car manufacturer? The state agent that issued your your license to drive? You insurance company? The salesman that sold you the car? You passenger(s)? The other driver(s)? Or you?
RTS:
I agree with a lot of what you just said…mostly the task book/position quotes.
What I’m talking about is trust. You said ‘solely and independently responsible’ and I used the Iron 44 fire to illustrate that sometimes a wff has to trust (or is inclined as part of the job) those around him that they know what they are doing. Aircraft or travel doesn’t get you out of it. When ground support hands me the keys to the rental, I trust it’s been inspected and operates correctly. Nothing would get accomplished at all if we all have to stop the operation a verify for ourselves that everybody is doing their job correctly at all times. I understand GM screwed up……..but I want to see the entire body of evidence before making a determination like you have.
How about coercion? What if someone is asked repeatedly to do something and they say no….
Thanks for answering the question – that you are 100% certain that no one shares any responsibility for the deaths of GM but GM. I find that fascinating given the extensive coverup & redactions etc. That’s sticking to your guns!
I’ll just say that I personally need more evidence to arrive at your level of certainty in this regard.
Woodsman
Thanks for answering the question – that you are 100% certain that no one shares any responsibility for the deaths of GM but GM. I find that fascinating given the extensive coverup & redactions etc. That’s sticking to your guns!
I’ll just say that I personally need more evidence to arrive at your level of certainty in this regard.
Woodsman
MY REPLY:
thank you Woodsman
Joy,
You’re welcome. Sorry about the run-on sentence comment. It was meant as light hearted teasing. I appreciate all of your posts.
Woodsman
I like forward open ways versus bullshitters and no tease… Its how you perceived me for the moment or still do…its all good.
Woodsman,
Don’t know what else to say other than I can confidently say that I have likely been sent home from more fires for refusing unsafe assignments than you have even been on.
Neither myself, nor anyone I supervised AND trained has ever been in a fire shelter or UNEXPECTEDLY burned over. And I base that on God’s will and because they adhered to the WFF Rules.
I trained some of the GMHS, mainly Steed, and so he should have known better. The YH Fire fatalities defy logic. It was purely based on Human Factors.
I trained some of the GMHS, mainly Steed, and so he should have known better. The YH Fire fatalities defy logic. It was purely based on Human Factors.
MY REPLY: oh I wish Dr Ted Putnam would chime in here…where you at Ted? THIS fire is not just based on human factors— ohhhhh noooo….2015 Wildland Convention firefighters we spoke to PLEASE chime in here too….no, not purely based…nope. MISSING ELEMENTS please SPEAK UP!
RTS:
“Don’t know what else to say other than I can confidently say that I have likely been sent home from more fires for refusing unsafe assignments than you have even been on. ”
Is this the moment where we each whip em’ out, flop em’ on the table and measure em’? Yes, you have more experience than me. Don’t stoop to that to shut down the conversation. You’re better than that.
“The YH Fire fatalities defy logic.”
This is why I believe it to be worthwhile to look at all the evidence and deep down, maybe you do too?
We are on a merry-go-round here. You say no one was responsible for GM deaths but the leadership of GM. I say prove it. You say no. I say get those who know to talk. You say not my job – up to them. I say then we don’t have all the evidence. You say no one was responsible for GM deaths but the leadership of GM………..
Around we go.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
No flopping ’em down needed, just trying to make a point about the coercion of some WFF overhead. So the f**k what! Let them coerce. You have the option to accept it or not or give them an option. NO ONE FORCES or makes you do anything.
You posted: “You say no one was responsible for GM deaths but the leadership of GM. I say prove it.”
It’s already PROVEN, don’t you get it? They are DEAD because of their Bad Decisions that day. Yes, it’s really that simple.
The GMHS are dead BY THEIR OWN HAND(S)! NO ONE put a gun to their head(s) and NO ONE forced them to leave their Safety Zone.
WTF is that so hard for you and others to understand?
RTS:
I forgot to answer this:
“You are a qualified WF supervisor from what I gather, so are YOU PERSONALLY AND/OR PROFESSIONALLY responsible for the ultimate safety and welfare of EACH AND EVERY WFF you supervise OR is their own supervisor(s), e;g. Crew Boss and/or Squad Bosses, responsible for them? ”
Yes. With every fiber of my being I will strive to ensure their safety within my capability to do so. I cannot determine an outcome beyond my control. I am responsible for those I supervise and they are responsible for those they supervise.
Which leads to questions a lot of us here have – who did what? Who didn’t do what? Why? etc.
The numerous qualifiers in your question are fun – love those. I do that too.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You posted: “Which leads to questions a lot of us here have – who did what? Who didn’t do what? Why? etc.”
Regarding the Basic WFF Rules, I believe there were LOTS of WFF Supervisors, including plenty on the IMT, that gave direction to and/or requested that Supervisors and/or Resources accomplish certain missions or tasks, knowing that those orders conflicted with The Basic WFF Rules. So then, the onus would be on the one ‘Accepting the Risk’ after taking the assignment stating they would do it or not.
So then, the higher level Supervisor can just put their hands up and say “They know ‘The WFF Rules’ and they knew the risks involved with accepting the assignment and accepted it anyway, so the ball is in their court now. It is out of my hands.”
Why? It’s a common ploy by some WFF Supervisors to do this. They have done it before and gotten Resources to take the assignments and gotten away with it (both Resources and the WFF Supervisors) so what’s the big deal.
And the Resources why? The GMHS had a recurring habit of getting away with risky assignments and had normalized deviance to the point of ‘it’s just another day’ and NOT complying with The Basic WFF Rules of LCES, when they left their perfectly good Safety Zone without a Lookout or notifying AA of their intentions, etc., etc., etc. until their Crew Supervisors killed themselves and their Crew, thus abdicating their primary supervisory responsibilities of Crew safety and welfare.
They had gotten away with it so many times, so why would the outcome be any different this time.
RTS said:
The attorney said “…. but the 19 firefighters that got cut off (from an escape route) and killed because of the state’s utter incompetence.’
He’s obviously NOT been reading these IM posts.
WRONG!”
And I totally agree. To the extent that I almost self-censored myself on quoting that statement. And then decided what the hay.
I really hope this case continues to go forward. For two reasons.
1) Given what Joy has written above about that gut-wrenching escape from this fire by two elders who have died after this fire. To at least some serious extent, as a result of this fire and what I believe was a seriously botched evacuation. That being said, I don’t know who was responsible for “botching” that evacuation. I lean towards Yavapai County Sheriff’s Department. But I really believe Yarnell and Glen Ilah should have been evacuated that morning, just as Peeples Valley was. I’m not sure whose responsibility that was, all things considered.
Yarnell Hill Fire: Evacuation timeline:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131116yarnell-hill-fire-evacuation-timeline.html
2) I think we have a serious “Houston We have a Problem” moment here. And I think this lawsuit could force the necessary conversation of who, exactly, is responsible for what, exactly, when a wildland fire is threatening homes and private property.
Land management agencies, like Az Dept of Forestry, have been, de facto, taking on that responsibility. I mean, really, just about everything they did during the Yarnell Fire was about that. You just can’t avoid that. They weren’t fighting that fire to protect State lands. It escaped State land and was burning private land, and threatening private property. Darrell Willis and his crew spent mucho dineros and plenty of time doing, in vain, “structure protection” of a private “ranch” which, predictably, burned, mostly, to the ground.
And AZDF is saying “We’re not responsible for doing that.” Really?????
On the other hand, there’s a huge extent to that I agree totally with that. It really isn’t their “scope of responsibility” to do that. And I believe it’s high time for the public to begin to understand that.This whole equation, and the thinking related to it, is what is getting wildland fire-fighters burned, maimed, and killed on the Wildland Urban Interface, including the Granite Mountain Hotshots. And also including what happened this summer on the Twisp River Fire and the Valley Fire.
I really hope this case goes further because I think it’s high time to deliberate on what, really, is the responsibility of the various Who’s when it comes to wildfires in/approaching the private property in the Wildland Urban Interface.
Namaste.
Marti,
I agree with you that this needs to go to go forward and go to trial.
Here’s a 2003 California Division of Forestry (CDF) report that compares our wildland fire laws to other countries, including Australia’s “Stay and Defend” practices, titled: “Wildland Fire Evacuation in the U.S.: The Color vs. the Letter of the Law.”
http://www.fire.uni-freiburg.de/summit-2003/3-IWFC/Papers/3-IWFC-060-Hubbard.pdf
It states that “EVACUATION IS A COLLABORATIVE UNDERTAKING AMONG FIRE AUTHORITIES, LAW ENFORCEMENT AND EMERGENCY SERVICE MANAGERS.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
“The decision to evacuate is determined as much by the concern for the safety of firefighters as well as the safety of residents. … The decision to declare an evacuation generally rests with the fire protection agency. … In reality, the decision is collaborative with law enforcement, …”
“In some cases, law enforcement MAY decide on its own initiative to implement an evacuation, independent of the fire control agency. This can be complicated ….”
“Once the fire authority requests an evacuation, LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT IS IN CHARGE OF IMPLEMENTATION. This is typically the county sheriffs office, Highway patrol, state police and other peace officers.”
Wildland firefighting in the WUI is extremely dangerous and carries its own Watch Out Situations, and this definitely needs to be focused on and visited as a key part of any yearly refreshers and/or WFF training. Firefighters seem to take too many unnecessary risks in the WUI.
I will post a link to the ‘159 page document titled: Wildland Fire Protection and Response in the United States – The Responsibilities, Authorities, and Roles of
Federal, State, Local, and Tribal Government’ posted elsewhere on IM in a former chapter.
“Wildland Fire Protection and Response in the United States – The Responsibilities, Authorities, and Roles of Federal, State, Local, and Tribal Government”
https://www.iafc.org/files/wild_MissionsProject.pdf
159 pages. The “Arizona State Forestry Wildland Fire Protection” chapter begins on page 49 (scrolling page 49 and/or page 6 in the AZ Appendix)
The old ‘English Common Law” thing is going to be a long shot… because it actually works both ways ( at least to used to… in ‘English Common Law’ ).
It actually establishes that if ANYONE fails to contain a fire that starts on their own land… then they are responsible for ‘damages’ when it spreads to other people’s lands.
If the judge just rules that the case should go forward on this one ‘legal point’ alone… then he has opened the doors for all kinds of lawsuits with neighbors suing neighbors even if a lightning strike on one person’s property spreads to someone else’s property.
NOTE: Proven arson is always a different story altogether, legally speaking. The concept at play here is for ANY fire spreading from one property to another, and the owner of the origin land being ‘liable’ for damages.
>> From the article…
>>
>> Once the firefighting efforts expanded beyond state lands, those fighting
>> the fire had a responsibility to do it in a responsible fashion.
This is still the best shot, legally speaking.
No English Common Law needed. It’s the EXISTING legal concept of “Assumption of Responsibility”.
>> Also from the article…
>>
>> And Abney said if he is allowed to take the case to trial, the evidence
>> will back him up.
It certainly will.
And that’s still all this about ( just the ability to even HAVE a trial at all ).
It’s about whether a case DESERVES to be ‘fully heard’ and win or lose… let a JURY decide the outcome.
The State of Arizona can argue all day long that their employees NEVER had any ‘responsibility’ to even be trying to protect Peeples Valley, Yarnell or Glen Ilah.
Their employees didn’t KNOW that at the time… and they “assumed the responsibility”.
I still think these ‘damages’ cases have two distinct ‘parts’.
One is related to the firefighting efforts ( from initial lightning strike onward ).
The other is simply related to the ‘evacuation notices’… and wether there were ‘losses’ there that could have been easily prevented if the people in harm’s way had simply had more TIME to do proper evacuations.
Even Mr. Russ Reason ( Rest In Peace ) was only able to save ONE of his vehicles because he simply didn’t even have TIME to go back in and drive the other one out.
There were/are a LOT of ‘losses’ that fall into that category.
If people had simply had more TIME… they could have saved more ‘things’.
In many cases… irreplaceable things.
I still say… just let it go to court. These people DESERVE that, at least.
We hope common law and common sense prevail in this case. The State had a fire started on State lands under the worst possible fire conditions with extreme fire alerts posted at both ends of Yarnell and according to reports we had, the State had set that 320 acres aside as restricted two weeks before the lightining strike precisely because of those conditions. Yet we are told that when the Yarnell fire department asked if they ought to put it out the reply was to do as they wished. The Yarnell fire department was fully aware of conditions, knew or should have known how quickly manzanita can burn and considering the proximity of that lightning strike they should have been rushing to it before it had chance to spread. Local ranchers with retardant could have dropped that evening, yet no one bothered to lift a finger.
I can tell you as Joy and I were camped some ten miles out in the desert where sparse vegetation and a camp fire for cooking smoked a bit, I had firemen on the spot in short time. They were ready to hand out tickets if it were possible, yet the same fire people could not bother to go three miles up that hill on a two track where ATV could have taken them in less than 20 minutes. Well we are of the mind that there were two Yellow and White ATVs there on Friday night. The lady, Cindy, who has now deceased had those photos and said she also saw lights up there on Friday night. Nothing has been said or proven since about that–so I am to assume if they were there they did not bother to contain the fire–and if not why not. Maybe if we can find these people they can get and award too.
By the way, I did hike up the mountain today. The walker the nice people from the VA provided was not used. It was wet and overcast today but I would not have missed it for the world. My daughter was along and Joy–quite pleasant hiking with those two young ladies. You can still get a nice view of the Death Bowl and the flag was waving full mast. My camera was dead on the battery but Joy got some cell phone shots. I am not yet in shape for a longer full hike and one sees how six stents and lethargic living can slow you down. The girls actually kept ahead of me and did stop at times for me to catch up.
We love and respect those fellows that gave their life in this tragedy. I am sorry that Marsh and Steed are taking the blame–facts are facts. But you know I really look at this situation from day one and see that they should have never been here to begin with. I also can not believe that Marsh alone made the decision to go down into the Death Bowl. Someone coaxed him and he passed it down. Those that took any kind of awards for a good job or saving someone deserve to be investigated to the fullest. There are too many lies and cover ups in this, one of the Worlds Worst Firefighting Jobs ever if not the worst.
Just add up the lives lost, homes and irreplaceable heirlooms, and displaced people not to mention millions in tax payer dollars and you want to give someone awards–when in all honesty it was a screw up from day one.
Your daughter and I can confirm you went on small walk to a mound but you were not on any mountain but you were on the doctor’s property that has minimal view to area at way distance much like the view from 89 ranch restaurant and note also Sonny did it but has to walk flat for a bit and no incline because he has been laying flat since and he is not at all ready for any mountain hikes on the Weavers… Keep it real Sonny…kudos to getting out but you were not on the deep steep trails we took all on but a tiny mound on the doctor’s property… Big difference there..the other requires huff and puff steep spots and the mound not so much…going to real estate office to take photo of an aerial to match up to weather channel aerial pic later today
Woodsman says
JANUARY 8, 2016 AT 4:01 PM
I tried but I can’t stay away…
WTKTT: I was wrong when I said you need to work on your technique. Keep doing the excellent work you are doing such as this above. Thank you!
And I said, “I think everyone here is irreplaceable,” But the truth is, WTKTT is the most irreplaceable whether you agree with him or like to take shots at him. And those who used to call me “The Jackhammer” never tried to follow WTKTT’s relentless (and at times robotic) posts because he truly is “The Jackhammer!”
This thread will dry up and blow away the day WTKTT stops posting. Love him or hate him.. As I said two years ago, I have never met anybody who has a mind more like a spread sheet than he (we established that much a couple of months ago) does..
I spent a long while writing and Sonny got hungry and I walked away from pc and he got on and opened a new page and I got back on and went to copy paste the fire link to put on here and when I got here it was blank and I thought cool I saved it before Sonny got it so I am okay EXCEPT I just copied that link so lost it all—
First off the reason real quick I want the IN WRITING expiration date on my order was because it is nowhere online showing expired and for the past year I have had to look around a room and even at times I was FIRST there and my order said if FIRST than Marsh had to leave not me but I did not have her do that at all and I left quietly unannounced each time except one time I was trapped in my town not hers in the Congress Country store as her and a man entered and I went into deep freezer to avoid her seeing me and they alerted me when she left with this man. She used bathroom. I just lost my pops and I have that grief to concern to so it would be nice to get official note that it is expired so I can leave it in history. I think at the time Marsh felt a fear emotion and I hope since she has soothed her views.
I wish my original comment did not vanish because I took alot of time writing it
As Sonny speaks about the science of retardant..
I would like to touch base about the science of miracles-
WWTKTT asked some additional questions along with Calvin to Glen Ilah resident Bryan Smith and so I called and did not get and answer but I did not just stop there. I sat down and began to write. When Bryan got the letter he called me today 1-9-16 8:48am and spent over a half hour answering the questions.
First off Sonny has family due here so when call came in I almost did not take it because I am organizing Sonny’s spot so when I did I asked if we can at a later time speak more in person because I want his words “dropbox” for others to listen to assess his words versus me carrying the dialogue third party. He said yes.
The forestry truck aquamarine he said it was not a square box but he kept stating “carry all- extended cab Suburban/van like feel to it but not a normal truck if considered one. He is not familiar with firefighter trucks so I am going to ask you WWTKTT to email me some photos of the men and vehicles used that day to show him in person.
The door he was to enter was locked and had to make room for him to enter. He said the driver is not Gary Cordes for the thinner younger man than Cordes had a kept up trimmed beard and I do not know who the zig zag man is but he said like zig zag man but no so pointy. Bryan left Pearl at her spot and went down the street and tried to flag this vehicle and driver down as he here’s propane tanks hissing and tires blowing and pop pop pop noises of bushes burning and he had an industrial accident so walking is not easy for him nor for Pearl who had cancer and he had only a 50ft clearance of view due to thick smoke and embers dropping. It was a high emotional moment as he was watching (THESE PEOPLE LIVE NEXT TO HELMS—)Howard and Jerry’s home ON FIRE and Bruce’s home ON FIRE and next door neighbor Larry and Patty McCracken’s garden shed ON FIRE and Russ Reason’s home was engulfed in flames. The driver pulled up and said “get in” as he unlocked vehicle and moved stuff to make room for Bryan and Bryan said he had to go get Pearl still..
Howard still stops by his unbuilt home but his wife will never enter Yarnell or their property again. Traumatized.
We spoke on topic of how fire hydrants were done/tested in January 2013 and the lack of using them during the fire???
Important quiet detail he stated- when they were in ambulance he heard crews talk to ambulance state “19 more coming” and those words lay way heavy spiritually for him and he is not one to do a media article but Patti McCracken told reporter Anne Ryman she was out of the town but her neighbor may share— he was here on 6-30-13; Bryan Smith. So photographer and reporter came out and wrote the article but he is a private stays to himself and his church kind of guy and does not engage in this kind of stuff but he feels it is time to start sharing and giving back for he has grand kids the ages of the 19 so for that he is YES to further interviews and questions on the YHF and he would like to forget it and the Weavers looks better but unsure he will ever forget.
Than I asked about helmet of driver and he said it was more like a baseball cap—no hard hat/helmet.
Now about recent talks on Willis- and God had the plan–
The very words that got me to be less of ME and more of Him because I was offended by his comment as you hear at 2:28/3:13 here and wanted to comprehend the meaning of Willis comment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA0njuVjD2c
I like Willis. A man of God. A man with clout and has a street named after him in Prescott. A man well respected. A man who has had to be there for the loved ones as well as the firefighter community. I know he stated hearsay things in my case and I know he stated after hearing to set it aside and there will be no reason for me to dislike Willis. I know some of his loved ones and friends and what they think of him and the only thing I thought was odd from his family/his support unit was one said call all the media on my case and ask for all references you can…go to the memorial meeting anyways…Number one odd thing said from Willis loved one was KARMA is already affected the private lives and they have no clue how the 19 are protecting the hikers and watching over us and all things will fall into place eventually and that was said couple months after hearing…
I like his wife and she has such a loving spirit about her and a real woman.
I cannot rewrite all I did but maybe soon…it was alot on 2015 and the past month…but ran out of time for now…
Thanks Joy for posting this. A few excerpts I keyed in on are listed below.
Tex says: “What I saw was a group of men that were totally spent, they looked like they were tired; they weren’t somebody you would want to fight a fire, I could tell you that, they needed rest, …. I just saw a situation that seemed to me kinda strange, to see men that depleted going up there. I thought ….”
Spent, not from working, but more likely spent from being hung over.
“Why would you go that way and not the burnt, the black, or the Congress side, because that is a long Joy says: way after being spent, and we saw them in the morning and they were spent and they were here all day in the sun and the smoke and everything and the heat. Why would you all the way over to the dense Manzanita …”
It is likely they went the way they did because of dulled senses and impaired judgement due to their hangovers. And also likely because of an unbroken chain of progressive, Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes, getting away with incrementally more risky behaviors again and again and again.
A Steady Drift Into Failure,
Thanks for this Joy.
Off the top of my head, I don’t remember seeing any fire-fighter-related trucks that looked like the one you are describing.
Is he sure that was a fire-fighter?
Marti… see my ‘Reply’ to Joy above as a new parent comment…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-322326
It has a new VIDEO / SLIDESHOW in it showing vehicles ( and faces ).
Other than the Blue Ridge vehicles ( which never left the RHR parking lot in this ‘rescue’ timeframe )… there WAS at least ONE other ‘all-aquamarine’ pickup truck there that day.
Jason Clawson… from the Prescott National Forest.
And as the new VIDEO shows… he DID have a neatly trimmed’ triangular’ beard that day.
Placing him anywhere near Bryan Smith and Pearl Moore would be problematic, as far as the existing evidence records goes… but there are some eerie similarities going on here with Bryan Smith’s description(s).
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 4, 2016 at 1:00 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_AjhL448ZA&index=14&list=LL7Ddlp39FV7S07qbKPCL2xg
>> he also left late,,,he would be one to ask more details.
Thank you for a reminder about this particular video, Joy.
Yes… this is that now-famous video of that fellow self-evacuating in his car from the extreme western edge of Glen Ilah, at 4:48 PM, with it totally black-as-night, embers falling from the sky, and houses burning all around him as he exits to the EAST and out to Highway 89.
YouTube Video Name: Yarnell Fire
Published on Jul 19, 2013 by Youtube User: fathomsuperfly
YouTube Comment: This is my escape from Glen Ilah, neighborhood that got the worst of the fire.
His trip out of Glen Ilah ( as seen in the video ) started at this address…
Street Address: 22905 Ridgeway Drive
Decimal Latitude, Longitude: 34.217598, -112.764267
Yavapa County Tax Assesor Parcel Number: 203-04-004
Registered Owner: Welborn Ricky L & Roberta J RS
He went north on Ridgeway, took a RIGHT turn and headed EAST on Westward way, and then eventually turned onto Lakewood Drive and exited Glen Ilah via Fountainhill Road. The video then shows him heading NORTH on Highway 89 and he eventually stopped at that Texaco Station in Yarnell where he shot those final video clips of the helicopters.
The vehicle he is following out is a large vehicle with a ‘square’ back, but it does NOT appear to be a fire engine or an emergency vehicle. It could be one of his neighbors driving an RV out ahead of him.
At +1:12 in the video, the dashboard clock in the vehicle he is driving comes into view in the lower right corner of the video frame.
It appears to indicate that the time at that moment is 4:48 PM, even though it was COMPLETELY DARK where he was at that point, heading north on Ridgeway Drive in Glen Ilah, with glowing embers falling all around him.
At +1:48 and again at +1:57, his video camera captures his own driver’s side external mirror and we can see that at least 1 other vehicle is FOLLOWING him out.
At +2:05, just as he reaches the intersection of Lakewood Drive and Manzanita Drive, we see at least TWO sets of vehicle headlights farther west on Manzanita Drive and coming OUT towards the camera. It is too far away to tell what kind of of vehicle(s) they might be, but this COULD be the vehicle(s) coming out that rescued Bob and Ruth Hart right around this same time out there on Manzanita Drive.
At +2:17, on the left side of the video, we get another glimpse of the same TWO sets of vehicles headlights seen 15 seconds ago coming OUT of Manzanita Drive. All we can see are headlights but there are at least 2 other vehicles ‘coming out’ at that point. Perhaps even THREE vehicles.
As he is driving NORTH on Highway 89, in that ‘curve’ between Glen Ilah and the south edge of Yarnell proper, and shooting scenes of the fire off to the west… FOUR vehicles pass by his camera heading SOUTH on Highway 89.
All FOUR of these vehicles would then show up still traveling south on Highway 89 ( and in the same sequential order ), behind Mr. Russ Reason as he was standing there giving his on-camera interview circa 4:55 PM at the northwest corner of the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant.
Here are those FOUR vehicles ( in the order they appear passing his camera and heading SOUTH on Hwy 89 )…
Dark Grey Mini-van
Passes the escaping man’s video camera at +2:27 into his video, heading south on Hwy 89.
Passes behind Russ Reason during his video interview at +43 seconds.
Black 2-door pickup truck
Passes the escaping man’s video camera at +2:28 into his video, heading south on Hwy 89.
Passes behind Russ Reason during his video interview at +48 seconds.
Maroon SUV with spare tire mounted on rear hatchback
Passes the escaping man’s video camera at +2:30 into his video, heading south on Hwy 89.
Passes behind Russ Reason during his video interview at +51 seconds.
White 4-door pickup with no markings or logos. Silver toolbox at the top of the open bed.
Driver appears to be wearing a Yellow Nomex shirt and talking on a cellphone or a radio.
Passes the escaping man’s video camera at +2:32 into his video, heading south on Hwy 89.
Passes behind Russ Reason during his video interview at +55 seconds.
This white pickup *may* have its left blinker on when it passes behind Russ Reason and
it *may* have turned into the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant.
The man who was ‘escaping’ in the video passed all FOUR of these vehicles that would then appear behind Russ Reason moments later as he was heading north on Highway 89 in that ‘curve’ between the Ranch House Restaurant and the south edge of Yarnell, and just before he reached that green-and-white roadsign on the west side of Highway 89 and facing the southbound traffic that says…
———————————————
Congress / Jct SR 71 – 10 miles
Wickenburg – 25 miles
———————————————
That roadsign is exactly here…
34.217808, -112.750308
In other words… all FOUR of these vehicles passed the escaping man’s video camera heading south when they were all only 783 yards ( 2,349 feet ) from where Russ Reason was standing giving his on-camera video at the Ranch House Restaurant.
SUMMARY
There is no exact ‘visual’ evidence of Gary Cordes ( or anyone else ) performing any ‘rescues’ back there in Glen Ilah in this particular ‘escape’ video… but we DO see some ‘headlights’ coming down Manazanita Drive that *might* be whoever it was that was rescuing Bob and Ruth Hart that afternoon. The same 4 vehicles seen passing this man’s camera just 783 yards from where Russ Reason was conducting his on-camera interview also just verifies the TIME we have been assuming for that Russ Reason interview. It really did take place in the 4:50 PM to 4:55 PM timeframe.
I will get confirmation and explain its better to hear it direct from him on sound recorder vs me just repeating it as well. He described Jason truck but Yowell’s beard. I am about to call Joe. Getting prepared than let you know.
I am so sorry I never go on the pc to report yesterday- but everything I say now took place between 3:30-3:55pm 1-6-16 when I was trying to find the Walmart Scooter Tex was riding- he was there one second and vanished and those darn things are SLOW—BUT glad in a way that happened because in search of him down every aisle quickly I first bumped into Cliff DuPuy and his wife the man who stated that the Yarnell dispatcher wanted to run back and get her notes and get rid of them—he the man who knows a lot about the initial attack because he was a dispatcher and he was PRESENT for the start—he who has conflicting stories of Peeples Valley headquarters yet Cliff was present with Yarnell chief at the time Jim Koile (wonder if he was the man in grey rim glasses) but this could be part of the chaos because the one we are about to interview with a few other men who were at Peeples Valley headquarters have not matched Yarnell headquarters from day one and this is not hearsay but first hand eyewitness accounts so maybe some of the chaos lays there—because there is such eyewitness differences on BLM topic. OKAY…next…that happen in food aisle and in center aisle between clothes and food I ran into three men who the one guy’s son is a wildland firefighter Andrew William who fought at YHF and it was so good to catch up with them than I ran into Flagstaff resident retired higher up fire community guy by the baby area in Walmart who I met getting a ginger ale for me at the bar at Bucky’s Casino while some 2015 WildLand Convention was taking place in another area- Tex and I were at the blackjack table trying to win a welder amount of funds…he wanted to be a part in this upcoming interviews and gave me his number and I typed it in and I thought I saw Sonny on scooter so I rushed off but not realizing I did not SAVE it so I told him about this site so IF you Do pop here —I messed up and do not have your number and you hopefully have the hiker’s contact information and know the interview is soon after my court order release—Than it was not Sonny I thought I saw on scooter but over by electronics I met a firefighter who was on the fire that weekend and said he wanted to thank us for everything we have done for the wildland fire community and a lot of us wish we could speak up. I asked was there a gag order on him? He said “no”. I said do you think others were gagged? He said “maybe ones at very critical points due to litigations but overall felt no and that maybe more like “bullying” techniques.” I said could I name you on a public website stating such. “No, I rather keep out. There is bigger people in this that could screw with my career.” I asked one final question- if I could interview him anonymous some critical questions and he said maybe in a few years after it all cools down—Than I am over by an area in the hospital and a lady firefighter who is actually in pending litigations (in pursuit/suing Chief Ben Palm & that dept) spoke brief too— and this person knew one of the GMHS loved ones and told me of “private” behind the scenes talk there that I hope the upcoming interviews will show some more details….also on hospital elevator one thanked us for all we have been still doing like the retardant drop map analysis of deaths ” OKAY and really soon is the one who helps police departments and the FBI and I wish one loved one who wanted to meet this person knows it is coming up soon if still quietly interested—this person has solved too many unresolved deaths and it is an area to just see—so here I am awaiting my father’s death certificate awaiting to sign the UPS thing than head back to Yarnell after I ship and fax the originals off to banks and all the wonderful close of life stuff—like social security…See you within the hour Sonny—OOOHHHHH…the boulders- BIG ones too fell off Weavers and the crew were doing that when I went down hill today— oddly it was between the elephant and lookout point these boulders fell—that might be the missing boulder I mention on here…plus it is the same area men died but on opposite side of the Weavers—this was the highway side going down hill….I gotta run…latest updates from the desert walker who has not walked the desert much lately…
Thank you, Joy ( as always ).
Geesh… that almost sounds like it was “People who know things about Yarnell but are still AFRAID to talk about it” day at the local Walmart.
Seems like every time you turned the corner… there was yet ANOTHER person who KNOWS something and still needs to talk about what they know.
Question for you regarding this ‘Injunction Against Harassment’ thing.
Hasn’t it ALREADY expired?
Arizona LAW says that these ‘Injunctions’ automatically EXPIRE exactly ONE YEAR from when they are first issued. Even if there was a ‘hearing’ and the order was ‘modified’ ( but still kept in place )… the ‘effective’ date is still the day it was originally issued, and NOT the day of the hearing itself.
So I believe a FULL YEAR has ALREADY transpired from when that order was ‘issued’.
When do YOU think it actually ‘expires’?
SIDENOTE: I would still advise you to simply request a LETTER from the Court Clerk that states ( in WRITING ) that this original ‘Injunction’ has, in fact, gone ‘off the clock’ and has now EXPIRED. It is your RIGHT to request ( and RECEIVE ) such a ‘letter’ to keep for your own records and for ‘future reference’.
Good idea wwtktt since I do plan to start sharing 2015.
I remember it like yesterday.
I had all these documents I was going to present January 6 2015 meeting and on the 4th my perimeter cameras show ycso served me and I hiked January 5 because Sonny did not have running vehicles and my hearing was to be fifth but judge no showed and today is my one year anniversary that Willis said after hearing he had to show support to loved ones and don’t hold it against him…that we were ok the hikers n him…yet the man did not support the loved ones when he voted against them this Fall….Oorah…loyally to the task at moment or fire community weighs heavier than the loved ones. do I just call or snail mail wwtktt that letter request…yes today is my one year anniversary to my first time ever in a court room and listen to Willis hearsay…I like Willis and his wife even with such hearing.
Wwtktt..sent you email…I was in mountain range…you might think I have the RIGHT but just confirmed with Prescott Court Clerk.. That is not accurate what you stated public.
Reply to joy a collura post on January 8, 2016 at 11:25 am
>> joy a collura said…
>>
>> you might think I have the RIGHT but just confirmed with
>> Prescott Court Clerk.. That is not accurate what you stated public.
You just have to love “Planet Arizona”.
So… you’re saying that an official PUBLIC employee of the PUBLIC Prescott Court system just told you that YOU are not even ENTITLED to know if a court order that the court this PUBLIC employee works for might have issued against you is still ‘in effect’… or not?
It boggles the mind.
By the way… in the very FORM that Amanda Marsh had to fill out it specifically says whatever ‘Injunction’ might result from that form request will ONLY last for 1 year from the day it is SERVED on you ( and not 1 year from the date of any subsequent hearing related to the original injunction ).
http://courts.yavapai.us/prescottjc/orders-of-protectionharassment-injunctions/
Click on OP / IH Forms.
NOTE: Prescott Consolidated Court System uses the SAME form for both an ‘Order of Protection’ ( OP ) request and an ‘Injunction Against Harassment’ ( IH ) request. The only thing that makes the requests different is which CHECKBOXES are checked on the form.
Amanda Beno Marsh requested an ‘Injunction Against Harassment’ with her ‘form’, and not a ‘Protective Order’.
Direct link to a blank copy of the same form Amanda Beno Marsh originally filled out…
http://courts.yavapai.us/prescottjc/files/2012/02/OPHI-Forms.pdf
From PDF page 3 ( of 5 pages )…
4. SERVICE AND EFFECT:
This protective order is valid for one year from the date it is served on the Defendant
So it is ONE YEAR from when it is initially SERVED ( on you )… and NOT one year from whenever the hearing takes place. Even if the order is ‘modified’ during the hearing that does NOT change the 1 year ‘countdown’ on the Injunction. It still starts the day it was SERVED on you.
There is also this in the same form…
11. PUBLIC ACCESS:
Only the information contained in the served protective order, not the petition, will be entered into the state computer system and will be made public on the internet. See next page to keep your address(es) private
What that is saying is that the case/order information is SUPPOSED to be showing up online, but the original petition most likely will NOT.
In other words… the Judge would have to somehow, someway officially SEAL the case in order for it to NOT be appearing in the Public Court Records System along with the proper CASE NUMBER.
So SEALED BY THE JUDGE ( which also has to be officially recorded somewhere if it happened ) you still most certainly have the right to request your OWN copy of the Court Case records… which also MUST contain a ‘resolution’ entry such as “Case has EXPIRED” or “ORDER has expired”.
I repeat my original recommendation.
Given the ‘weirdness’ of this whole thing in the first place… I would still try to obtain something in WRITING which CONFIRMS that this ‘order’ that was originally issued at the start of 2015 is now NO LONGER IN EFFECT.
I wouldn’t settle for some ‘clerk’ just telling you anything over the phone.
There HAS to be a way for a citizen to receive, in WRITING, some kind of ‘notification’ that a ‘court order’ they might have been under is NO LONGER IN EFFECT.
Yes I was about Wal-Mart on one of those electric carts. That certainly is not my style and only when necessary. I am allowing myself a up to six weeks. I want to get back to those hikes.
I have to consider what has laid so many of our Yarnell friends and neighbors down. Most of those people that have died and ( I think I was one of them) are elderly (I am) and generally already had health issues. In a study of what are seven varieties of the LC95-A retardant allowed by the USFS, I have found they contain some very dangerous chemicals. Two of the most dangerous beside the NH3, are hexylene glycol and flouro surfacants.
Ethylene glycol is anti freeze and a little bit will kill your dog. Ten teaspoons over a ten day period will kill you in a very slow and painful way to die. Now we go to Hexylene glycol found in the orange slurry dropped on you or near your home. This stuff is way more dangerous to your health only a little above 25 parts per million when you breath it in can cause fatigue, reduced concentration, nerve effects such as the feeling of pins and needles in your arms and legs, and may affect kidneys, liver and the central nervous system Twenty five ppm is a very small amount.
Next are the flouro surfacants. These dangerous chemicals have plenty of flourine atoms attached to SO3 and they reduce water tension by a half. Flourine is a very poinous substance. Florine gas is highly toxic and will damage kidneys and respiratory systems above 25ppm.
So we see those two chemicals are dangerous in very small concentrations. Add to the the excessive amount of NH3, ammonia gas, another poison that destroys lung tissue and we have no wonder that these elderly people are expired from lung and heart conditions. That count is over 70 since the Yarnell dump of over 30,000 gallons literally in peoples back yards and even in some cases front yards.
Now I see that Monsanto was the original producer of these chemical fire retardants, but then the next known company was Astaris out of Idaho who transferred that part of their business to the Israel Chemical Company, Ltd. So most of this retardant dropped is imported. They will assure you of how safe their chemical is and so will your friendly armed Forest Ranger. But he is not armed with the knowledge to tell you what the 8-16% trade secret chemicals are that you get when this toxin is dumped. I can’t tell you either and only a doctor can know but he can’t let it be known–you might reveal the secret potion to the public and supposedly this will cost the Israeli company competition in producing their toxic slop’ Likely the forester won’t even know that it is an ammonia phosphate base that kills fish by the thousands if dumped in a pond or river as it has done over the US.
All of this reminds me of my old Uranium mining days. We were told and believed that the low level radiation of mines would have no health effects. In those days we needed plenty of Uranium to make bombs to scare Russia with. There were billions of dollars involved and big business enterprises so what value are a few uranium miners or workers lives and health worth against the good for the whole of business and the safety of society. It is after all similar to what a soldier does to defend the safety and good of the nation.
Now we look at the wildfire fighting hero. Consider the millions distributed to the multi million dollar business of agent orange looking LC95-A with its known toxins and unknown toxins hidden under the name of trade secrets. Alike the Uranium miner we must balance the health and life of the wild land fighter against the value of use of that poison Agent Orange like LC-95A retardant. Thousands of dead fish have proven the toxic effects on life and that in itself ought to send out warning to public. Over seventy of the elderly dead since the fire ought to bear and investigation about health effects. Yet you young firefighters like the young Uranium miner will see few or no effects until later in life. Lung tissues and toxic build up will take its time to surface-if not soon then even decades to evolve. I hope you, like the Uranium miner will get a consolation prize for your dangerous work. Some Uranium miners, downwind Uranium exposed persons, Uranium mill workers can get between $150,000 and $270,000 if they have lung cancer or other respiratory or cancerous diseases if they worked before 1973. My time was in after that so I did not qualify even though I have the cancer and COPD connected with those Uranium doses. I did give an application to a neighbor whom had served in the Navy and was exposed while watching the Hydrogen Bomb going off and received a nice dose of fall out–the ash falling like the ash of Yarnell.
But wouldn’t it be better we had an honest appraisal of the effects of these chemicals? Wouldn’t it be a great thing if we had an honest investigation of all the skulduggery that went on connected with the Yarnell catastrophe? Don’t hold your breath, but know this information is readily available and well known by the companies promoting their deadly wares.
Sonny said
except for one thing, Grant McKee was under strict orders to obey his superior so no matter what drugs were in him he did exactly as Marsh and Steed told him to do and the other 16 were in agreement also.
Sonny. If the documentation we have is (remotely) accurate. I believe there is 100% chance Eric Marsh did not contact Grant McKee and order him to the ranch! And I mean that with all of me.
Grant McKee and the GMH were reporting to Jesse Steed at the YHF on 6/30/13. That needs to be acknowledged if there are any Lessons Learned here.
IF there was an argument between Marsh and Steed prior to the GMH descending from the ridge, or leaving their lunch spot, or wherever. That seems to be further evidence of the point I am making.
Bob or RTS has NEVER alleged an argument occurred between McKee (or any other GMH), only Steed. Because Steed would have been in command.. If that even happened, not saying it didn’t.
But. The failure of the SAIT, and all of the ensuing (green blood everywhere) BULLSHIT, has led to a whitewash of what actually occurred that dreadful day.
We can all imagine there was an emergency plan to attempt to save Glen Isla. With a dozer, handline, and fire retardant? What else would the GMH be doing in that location? And the BSR was *most likely* top priority. Mr Helms had direct contact with fire commanders even during the burnover. And arrived BACK to his home (with fire commanders) immediately following the discovery of the deceased 19.
And the omission of important information/ investigation stinks. And I do not believe it is an attempt to cover for the 19. I do believe it is to protect some of the living and the system they all long to be a part of.
On a personal note. I had to euthanize one of my dogs today, first time in my life. May be that is where my anger is coming from.
Reply to calvin post on January 6, 2016 at 9:15 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Grant McKee and the GMH were reporting to Jesse Steed at the YHF on 6/30/13.
>> That needs to be acknowledged if there are any Lessons Learned here.
Yes. And if there was any ‘dissent’ coming from GM Squad leaders and/or crew… that ‘dissent’ would have been being expressed to Jesse Steed himself.
That being said… it’s worth pointing out that if/when this ‘alleged’ argument took place between Jesse Steed and Eric Marsh… the entire GM Crew would have most likely HEARD it taking place.
From the two 9 second video clips we DO have taken by Christopher MacKenzie at that ‘rest spot’… we can clearly hear that it was NOT Jesse Steed’s habit to be using an ‘earpiece’ or otherwise be trying to ‘hide’ his communications over the GM Crew Net from the Crew itself.
Even if they were not in earshot… there were supposedly ELEVEN handheld radios out there with that GM crew and they still would have been able to hear for themselves what was transpiring between Steed and Marsh over the GM Crew Net.
So I think it’s still safe to say that even though the Granite Mountain CREW was ONLY directly answerable to Jesse Steed that afternoon ( on a pure ‘org chart’ level, at that point ), they must have been very much AWARE that the guy who is NORMALLY their ‘org chart’ Superintendent was expressing HIS ‘wishes’ to the guy who is NORMALLY just the ‘Assistant Superintendent’ on that same ‘org chart’.
But there really is no doubt that the only way those men would have left that position, when all was said and done, is if Jesse Steed himself had ‘given the order’ to move.
The only place their ‘free will’ could have then kicked in is if they really did think it was a crazy thing to attempt and they had exercised their own individual rights to turn down any order or directive that they considered ‘crazy’ or ‘too unsafe’
I wish they had.
Even Mike Dudley… the co-author of the document that said no one did anything wrong that day and that there was no ‘negligence’ or ‘overly risky’ behavior had this to say ( in public ) to a roomful of Utah firefighters…
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said…
———————————————————————————————-
There’s a part of me that HAS to wonder… as they stood there on that saddle and they started droppin’ down the slope… I would like to think a few members of the crew had that little gnawing ‘pit’ in their stomach sayin’… “Is this a good idea?”.
But… would any one of ’em have spoken up and argued against the superintendent… or the acting? I don’t know.
———————————————————————————————-
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> We can all imagine there was an emergency plan to attempt to save Glen Isla.
>> With a dozer, handline, and fire retardant? What else would the GMH be doing
>> in that location?
The evidence just continues to mount that that WAS the case that day.
Even in Tyson Esquibel’s handwritten Unit Log we find this, when he was detailing that late-afternoon ‘Cutover Trail’ dozer push assignment that Cordes came up with…
————————————————————————————————-
1445 ( 2:45 PM )
Met with Structure Group 2 ( Cordes ). Plan to use TF2 ( Esquibel’s Task Force 2 ) resources to tie dozer line to rock outcrop on Mountain west of Shrine Road in Harper Canyon. Blue Ridge IHC and Granite Mountain IHC to improve dozer line. Proposed burnout possible in night or evening.
————————————————————————————————–
Notice that it seemed to be Tyson Esquibel’s SPECIFIC impression ( as early as 2:45 PM ) that this ‘new’ dozer line that he was instructed to push ( by Cordes ) on that ‘Cutover Trail’ between the Sesame Clearing and the Harper Canyon area was supposed to then be ‘improved’ ( once finished ) by TWO Type 1 IHC crews… and not just Blue Ridge. Esquibel seems to be saying that BOTH Granite Mountain and Blue Ridge were supposed to ‘improve’ that new, proposed dozer line near Yarnell once it was ‘pushed’ by the dozer that afternoon.
SPGS Gary Cordes himself also seems to CONFIRM this ‘impression’ of Esquibel’s in his own ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013…
Q2 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH / WFA investigator ( Rest In Peace )
A = SPGS1 Gary Cordes
————————————————————————————————
A: So once it was determined they didn’t need the dozer anymore and we now knew that the fire pooched out to the northeast, my concern was if we had wind change it would hook around back towards town, so we came back and just north of the, the ranch on Sesame Street, there’s a, there’s a road that goes um, northeast and towards shrine, so we improved that road to now become the primary um, line and, and then planned on burning that out that evening once we got it all tied into the rock pile,
That was an only masticated area in there, I guess it was cleaned up about three years ago so we had, we did good on that, uh, we tied it into um, into Shrine, back in there, uh, cut it across between, I’m guessing it’s between those, what looks like those two roads in there and we actually were able to um, it was a couple hundred feet that they had to go in and, and I had three engines doing saw work in there to tie it into the rock pile up in there. And that was actively just about done when this fire had uh, blown up and changed direction on us. And then Blue Ridge had picked up, my guys were tying into the, into the rock pile, um, and Blue Ridge was improving that dozer line back on that, on that road going back to Sesame Street from Shrine.
Q2: Blue Ridge was uh, working for Eric?
A: …you know, it initially sounded like he was assigned to alpha. Um, Eric told him he didn’t need him up there and so Blue Ridge was kinda just, kind of um, I guess just, they, they jumped over and started helping me for the most part. They weren’t technically assigned to me but they were, they had jumped in looking, you know, looking for work, so we identified the need in there to improve this dozer line so that was their primary uh, primary goal. My understanding was that, maybe it’s just my interpretation, but I, I thought I had heard some conversation on the radio at one point uh, where Granite Mountain would come in and tie in that uh, western edge of that line and start working that back in. Um, that was my general understanding. Whether that was a face to face with somebody from Blue Ridge or whether I heard that on the radio, but that was my understanding of what the next, next work was gonna be done.
Q2: Well was tying a, some type of hand line into the dozer line?
A: Right…
————————————————————————————————–
So Gary Cordes is almost totally CONFIRMING Tyson Esquibel’s ‘impression’ that he wrote down in his own Unit Log.
Cordes is NOT talking about the ‘plan from the morning’, at this point.
Cordes is now SPECIFICALLY talking about this OTHER plan he came up with later in the afternoon to improve that ‘Cutover Trail’ in the hopes of protecting Yarnell.
He seems to be CONFIRMING what Esquibel thought… that this NEW late-afternoon project ( the ‘new’ dozer push specifically from the Sesame Clearing northwest to the Shrine Road and Harper canyon ) was GOING to then be ‘worked on’ by BOTH ‘Granite Mountain’ and ‘Blue Ridge’ as soon as the dozer was done ‘pushing’ it.
SIDENOTE: Notice also that in this same section from his ADOSH testimony… Cordes is also CONFIRMING that Blue Ridge really were the “lost boys” that day. Even Cordes seemed to know they had NOT been ‘assigned’ to him and were, in fact, ‘assigned’ to DIVSA Eric Marsh that morning… like OPS1 Todd Abel himself said to ADOSH.
But we also seem to see CONFIRMATION here from Cordes that Blue Ridge really did make some kind of offer to go up there and HELP Granite Mountain get that anchor point assignment done and over with in a timely fashion… but Eric Marsh himself seems to have REFUSED their help.
So that’s when they ended up just sitting there near their Carriers in the Sesame Clearing area for the next 4 and 1/2 HOURS until circa 2:45 PM when Cordes and Esquibel came up with this NEW plan and Blue Ridge ( finally ) had “something to do”.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> And the BSR was *most likely* top priority.
Perhaps… but see above.
Tyson Esquibel AND Gary Cords definitely seemed to be under the impression that the ‘priority’ for late afternoon was to push that dozer line over to Harper Canyon, and then have BOTH the Type 1 IHC crews that were there ( BOTH Granite Mountain AND Blue Ridge ) ‘improving’ that emergency ‘keep it out of Yarnell’ dozer line.
If the understanding really was that Granite Mountain was SUPPOSED to get down there and help improve that ‘new’ ‘Cutover Trail’ dozer push WITH ‘Blue Ride’… then the BSR was just a ‘way to get to the assignment’ and not a ‘destination’ in and of itself.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> On a personal note. I had to euthanize one of my dogs today, first time in my life.
My sincere condolences, calvin. Truly.
Been there a number of times and it is NEVER easy.
Followup…
It’s probably also worth noting that while TLFD2(t) Trainee Tyson Esquibel saw fit to detail exactly WHEN SPGS Gary Cordes ‘hatched’ this late-afternoon ‘do something to protect Yarnell’ plan utilizing a NEW ‘dozer push’ on the Cutover Trail… and Esquibel then details ALL of the resources that were supposed to be involved including his own Task Force and TWO (2) IHC ‘Hotshot Crews’ ( BOTH Blue Ridge AND Granite Mountain )…
Gary Cordes’ own (signed) Unit Log contains NO MENTION of this plan whatsoever.
Like it didn’t even exist… or that he was the author of it… or where Esquibel might have even gotten the impression that BOTH Granite Mountain AND Blue Ridge were supposed to be ‘improving’ THAT new dozer line near Yarnell.
Here again is Tyson Esquibel’s 2:45 PM Unit Log entry…
————————————————————————————————-
1445 ( 2:45 PM )
Met with Structure Group 2 ( Cordes ). Plan to use TF2 ( Esquibel’s Task Force 2 ) resources to tie dozer line to rock outcrop on Mountain west of Shrine Road in Harper Canyon. Blue Ridge IHC and Granite Mountain IHC to improve dozer line. Proposed burnout possible in night or evening.
————————————————————————————————–
And here are ALL of the entries in Gary Cordes’ own (signed) Unit Log covering the same timeframe Esquibel mentions…
Gary Cordes makes NO mention of this ‘Cutover Trail’ dozer assignment that Esquibel wrote about in his Unit Log…
————————————————————————
Activity Log ( continuation )
Incident Name: Yarnell Hill
Name: Gary Cordes
ICS Position: Structure Group 1
Submitted/signed on: 7/26/13 – 1400 ( 2:00 PM )
All times are approximate.
6/30 – 0845 ( 8:45 AM )
Dozer arrived – started them to work after briefing on Sesame Street.
Ordered Dozer Boss. Stayed with dozer pushing line until Ball
from Blue Ridge took the Dozer Boss position. Ball was briefed
on operation and intent.
6/30 – 1000 ( 10:00 AM )
Tyson – Task Force Leader with 4 typ 6 and 2 tendors showed up.
Briefed and assigned to recon the community and make a presence.
6/30 – 1230 ( 12:30 PM )
Requested a frequency change to a separate TAC due to increased
activity with STR GRP 2 sharing TAC 2. TAC 3 assigned. All resources
notified and moved to TAC 3
6/30 – 1400 ( 2:00 PM )
YCSO started pre evac notice.
6/30 – 1530 ( 3:30 PM )
Fire turned 90 degrees from NE activity to S / SW from outflow of storm
NORTH of fire. Flank – approx 3 (?) became active head moving S / SW.
6/30 – 1540 ( 3:40 PM )
Yarnell evac trigger point met. Evac requested
6/30 – 1545 ( 3:45 PM )
OPS – Musser met and discussed options.
6/30 – 1550 ( 3:50 PM )
Trigger point for crew removal met. Ordered to start out of assigned area.
6/30 – 1555 ( 3:55 PM )
Fire hitting top of ridge north side of town. Asked OPS Abel to have Air Ops start
dropping at will. Also advised I had lost use of Air to Ground FX.
6/30 – 1600 ( 4:00 PM )
Fire hitting town. Assisting with evac.
6/30 – 1615 ( 4:15 PM )
Met at staging to tie in with assigned resources.
Advised of deployment by E-59 ( Engine 59 – Captain Reyes ).
6/30 – 1620 ( 4:20 PM )
Entered subdivision of Glen Ilah removing 4 stranded elderly on
several trips in and out. Turned over to ambulance for TX.
————————————————————————
The ONLY time SPGS Gary Cordes even admitted to there being such a ‘plan’ involving this ‘Cutover Trail’ and (supposedly) TWO Hotshot crews to ‘improve’ it ( BOTH Granite Mountain AND Blue Ridge ) is when he was being QUESTIONED about it by the ADOSH investigators.
They, themselves, were already aware of this IMPORTANT ‘plan’ that ended up involving LOTS of resources… and they were wondering, themselves, why Gary Cordes made absolutely NO MENTION of it in his own ‘Unit Log’.
I tried but I can’t stay away…
WTKTT: I was wrong when I said you need to work on your technique. Keep doing the excellent work you are doing such as this above. Thank you!
Woodsman
Given that GMHS Grant Scott McKee had several prescription drugs in his blood, this is an interesting and somewhat relevant, 2008 Fire Engineering article titled ‘Firefighter Deaths from Prescription Medications: Two Case Studies.”
Indeed, breathing in the super-heated air and thermal burns from the YH Fire were the cause of death and NOT the prescription drugs for the structural firefighters in the article.
http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-161/issue-12/departments/fire-service-ems/firefighter-deaths-from-prescription-medications-two-case-studies.html
Article below verbatim from Fire Engineering (12/01/2008)
Firefighter Deaths from Prescription Medications: Two Case Studies
12/01/2008
By Tommy Baldwin and Tom Hales
Firefighters have hazardous jobs—jobs that put them at risk for injury and illness.1-5 Many of these injuries/illnesses involve the musculoskeletal system, (2, 4, 5) whose treatment may involve the short-term prescription of painkilling medications, including narcotics. Typically, these injuries/illnesses resolve before work restrictions are needed. However, in some cases, the pain persists and work restrictions, for the condition or for the prescribed medications, are appropriate. This article highlights the potential dangers of taking pain medications by describing the on-duty deaths of two firefighters whose deaths were ascribed to prescribed narcotics and other painkillers. The article includes guidance on this topic as set forth in National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 1582, Standard on Comprehensive Occupational Medical Program for Fire Departments.
CASE STUDIES
Case #1 involved a 31-year-old male volunteer firefighter who responded to his station during a 911 call for smoke in a basement. After arriving at his fire station, he waited for one of the fire department’s driver/operators to arrive and drive him and the engine to the scene. While he was waiting, the first assistant chief arrived at the residence, determined a full response was not needed, and cancelled the response. The driver/operator returned home without arriving at the fire station. About 30 minutes later, a civilian driving by the fire station noticed a collapsed firefighter just inside the station and notified 911. Despite cardiopulmonary resuscitation and advanced life support, the firefighter died. The death certificate and autopsy listed “acute intoxication by the combined effects of propoxyphene (Darvon®) and cyclobenzaprine (Flexeril®)” as the cause of death and “hypertension” as another condition.
The firefighter had a medical history of chronic strained back muscles (not duty related) and had been prescribed pain medications for five years.7 Prescriptions included narcotics (Darvon®, Percocet®, Oxycontin®) and a muscle relaxant (Flexeril®). At autopsy, the firefighter had a propoxyphene blood level of 3.3 milligrams per liter (mg/L), well above the therapeutic level of 0.42 mg/L. He also had a cyclobenzaprine blood level of 0.09 mg/L, well above the therapeutic level of 0.026 mg/L. (7)
The department requires preplacement medical evaluations for applicants and periodic medical evaluations for all members. The physician conducting the department’s periodic medical evaluations was unaware of the firefighter’s history of back pain or narcotic use and cleared him for unrestricted duty two years prior to his death. Medical records suggested the firefighter did not disclose his former and current prescription use or his history of chronic back pain to the department physician.
Case #2 involved a 28-year-old male volunteer chief attending an emergency medical services conference. The evening before the conference, the chief and his wife went to bed at 2230 hours. The next morning, at 0900 hours, the chief’s spouse awoke and found the chief unresponsive. She called 911, and an ambulance responded. From the chief’s clinical condition, it was obvious he had expired some time earlier. Cardiopulmonary resuscitation and advanced life support treatment were not performed, and he was pronounced dead at the scene. The death certificate and the autopsy, conducted by the chief medical examiner, listed “accidental multiple drug intoxication” as the cause of death.
The chief had a history of a back injury with subsequent surgery. He had been prescribed pain medications for eight years, which included narcotics (MS Contin®), muscle relaxants (Flexeril®, Robaxin®, Valium®), antidepressants (Effexor®, Paxil®), and sleeping pills (Ambien®).8 At autopsy, the chief had a morphine (MS Contin®) blood level of <50 nanograms per milliliter (ng/mL); well within the therapeutic level of 80 ng/mL. He also had a diazepam (Valium®) blood level of 514 ng/mL; well within the therapeutic level of 1,000 ng/mL. (8) Although both medicines were within therapeutic level, the chief medical examiner felt the interaction of the two drugs was responsible for the chief’s death.
The department did not require preplacement or periodic medical evaluations. However, according to the department, all firefighter applicants must be in self-reported excellent health and physically fit. The chief’s personal physician was aware of NFPA 1582 guidance regarding narcotic use but cleared the chief for light duty based on the chief’s self-assessment that he did not respond to “emergencies.”
DISCUSSION
These two cases illustrate the dangers of taking multiple pain medications. Table 1 lists the generic and brand names of the medications prescribed over a five- and eight-year period for these two firefighters. These medications are dangerous not only because of the risk of overdosing but because they also have side effects that can impair the performance of firefighting duties. Table 2 lists the side effects of the medications, which can affect firefighter work performance. Taking pain medications when working jeopardizes that firefighter’s safety as well as the safety of other firefighters operating at the emergency scene. This risk extends to the general public if the firefighter is operating apparatus under emergency conditions.
These deaths highlight the importance of periodic medical evaluations by fire departments. During these evaluations, firefighters must provide an accurate medical history to the examining physician. In Case #1, periodic medical evaluations were performed, but the firefighter did not report his medication use to the examining physician. In Case #2, the chief provided accurate information to his private physician, but the department did not require periodic medical evaluations. These recommendations apply to firefighters who respond to emergency calls as well as to some who have other roles—for example, firefighters who don’t respond to real emergencies but participate in live-fire drills.
Propoxyphene (Darvon®) is a narcotic analgesic that has been in clinical use since 1963. It is somewhat less potent than codeine and bears a close structural relationship to methadone. It is available in oral formulations as the hydrochloride (Propoxyphene HCl) or the napsylate salt [Propoxyphene N (Darvocet-N®)]. Both formulations are often combined with aspirin or acetaminophen. Daily therapeutic oral doses of propoxyphene range from 128-390 mg for Propoxyphene HCl and from 200-600 mg for Propoxyphene N.9
Propoxyphene is metabolized to norpropoxyphene, which is one-fourth to one-half as active an analgesic as propoxyphene, but it accumulates in blood plasma because of a longer half-life. The contribution of norpropoxyphene to the efficacy or toxicity of the parent drug has not been thoroughly established (9),10 Propoxyphene has the usual respiratory depressant effects common to all beta-agonist narcotics. (10) Overdosage with propoxyphene can result in stupor, coma, convulsions, respiratory depression, cardiac arrhythmias, hypotension, pulmonary edema, and circulatory collapse.
CONTINUED ON NEXT REPLY
CONTINUATION OF ABOVE FIRE ENGINEERING ARTICLE
Following a single 130-mg oral dose of propoxyphene HCl, plasma concentrations reach 0.23 milligrams per liter (mg/L) at two hours; the plasma concentration of its metabolite (norpropoxyphene) reaches 0.27 mg/L at four hours. Chronic daily doses of 195 mg of propoxyphene HCl were shown to produce average plasma concentrations of 0.42 mg/L propoxyphene and 1.45 mg/L norpropoxyphene two hours after the last administration. (9)
Generally, blood propoxyphene concentrations exceeding 1 mg/L are considered indicative of serious toxicity, and concentrations of 2 mg/L or more are consistent with death. However, fatalities have been reported with blood propoxyphene concentrations <1 mg/L.(9) Seven acutely intoxicated patients who survived because of hospital treatment were found to have average plasma propoxyphene and norpropoxyphene concentrations of 1.6 mg/L and 2.0 mg/L, respectively. (9) In another report of 72 cases in which acute propoxyphene overdosage was the sole cause of death, postmortem femoral blood concentrations averaged 2.8 mg/L (range, 1.3 – 8.1). In most specimens, norpropoxyphene concentrations exceed those of propoxyphene. (9)
To provide guidance for physicians and other health care providers for maintaining a comprehensive occupational medical program for fire departments, the NFPA developed NFPA 1582, Standard on Comprehensive Occupational Medical Program for Fire Departments. (6) Among other issues, NFPA 1582 provides guidance on medication use that should result in restricted duty. NFPA 1582 considers narcotics use to be a Category A condition for candidates, defined as “a medical condition that would preclude a person from performing as a member in a training or an emergency operational environment by presenting a significant risk to the safety and health of the person or others.”(6) Candidates’ use of psychiatric medications and muscle relaxants is considered a Category B condition, defined as “a medical condition that, based on its severity or degree, could preclude a person from performing as a member in a training or [an] emergency operational environment by presenting a significant risk to the safety and health of the person or others.”(6)
NFPA 1582 recommends that any prescription medicine (narcotics, muscle relaxants, sedatives, etc.) that alters mental status, vigilance, judgment, or other neurologic functions should result in temporary restrictions. These medications preclude a firefighter from safely performing the essential job tasks of firefighting (Table 3 not shown).
Other occupations whose job tasks involve public safety also restrict the use of prescription medications. For example, the U.S. Department of Transportation will not issue a commercial driver’s license to “a person taking narcotics unless the drug is prescribed by a licensed medical practitioner who is familiar with the driver’s medical history and assigned duties and has advised the driver that the prescribed drug will not adversely affect the driver’s ability to safely operate a commercial vehicle.”11
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) will defer medical certification for pilots taking mood-ameliorating, narcotic, or sedative medications unless the treatment has been previously cleared by FAA medical authority. During periods in which these medications are being used for treatment of acute illnesses, the airman is under obligation to refrain from exercising the privileges of his airman medical certificate unless cleared by the FAA.12
For police officers, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts considers the use of narcotics, sedatives, and psychoactive agents to be a “Category B” medical condition that could preclude a candidate from performing the essential functions of a police officer because of the safety risk.13
The State of California has determined that medication-induced impairment can place a patrol officer and others at substantial risk of harm. Consequently, all candidates who report the use of medications on a chronic or an intermittent basis must be carefully evaluated to determine their suitability for unrestricted duty.14
NFPA 1582 also addresses fitness-for-duty issues for candidates and members with spine disorders and back pain. For candidates, a history of spinal surgery involving fusion of two or more vertebrae and any spinal or skeletal condition causing pain that frequently or recurrently requires narcotic analgesic medication are considered Category A conditions, precluding them from becoming firefighters.
For members, spinal fusion at two or more levels and a spinal condition with significant radiculopathy resulting in peripheral motor weakness, loss of strength, sensation, and reflexes affecting endurance, strength, flexibility, pain, and/or gait disturbances compromises the member’s ability to safely perform essential job tasks 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 13 (Table 3).
To ensure the safety of firefighters and the public whose lives they protect and to address prescription medication use in firefighters, fire departments should do the following:
Provide post-offer/preplacement medical evaluations to candidates and annual medical evaluations to members in accordance with NFPA 1582.
Ensure members are knowledgeable of, and comply with, fire department requirements regarding reporting any medical condition that could interfere with their ability to safely perform essential job tasks. This must include all medications, prescription and over-the-counter.
Ensure that firefighters are cleared for duty by a physician knowledgeable about the physical demands of firefighting and the various components of NFPA 1582.
References
1. Brandt-Rauf, PW, LF Fallon Jr., T Tarantini, C Idema, L Andrews, “Health hazards of firefighters: exposure assessment,” Br J Ind Med, 1988; 45:606-612.
2. Matticks CA, JJ Westwater, HN Himel, RF Morgan, RF Edlich, “Health risks to firefighters,” J Burn Care Rehab, 1992; 13:223-235.
3. Guidotti, TL, “Human factors in firefighting: ergonomic-, cardiopulmonary-, and psychogenic stress-related issues,” Int Arch Occup Environ Health, 1992; 64:1-12.
4. Magnetti, SM, WD Wyant, J Greenwood, NJ Roder, JC Linton, AM Ducatman, “Injuries to volunteer firefighters in West Virginia,” JOEM, 1998; 41(2):104-110.
5. Reichelt, PA, KM Conrad,”Musculosckeletal injury: ergonomics and physical fitness in firefighters.” In: Orris P, J Melius, RM Duffy, eds. Occupational medicine, firefighter’s safety and health. (Philadelphia, PA: Hanley and Belfus, 1995), (10)4: 735-746.
6. NFPA 1582: Standard on Comprehensive Occupational Medical Program for Fire Departments. Quincy MA: National Fire Protection Association.
7. “Fire Fighter Dies After Responding to a Call–New York.” Morgantown, WV: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, Division of Safety Research. Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program Report No. F2005-24. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200524.html.
8. “Fire Chief Suffers Sudden Death During Training–Alabama,” Morgantown, WV: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, Division of Safety Research. Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program Report No. F2006-01. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200601.html.
9. Baselt RC. Disposition of Toxic Drugs and Chemicals in Man. (Foster City, CA: Biomedical Publications. 7th Edition, 2004), 953-956.
10. Karch SB. Karch’s Pathology of Drug Abuse. (Boca Raton, FL: CRC Press. 3rd Edition, 2002), 372-373.
11. CFR. 49 CFR 391.41, Physical Qualifications for Drivers. Code of Federal Regulations. Washington, DC: National Archives and Records Administration, Office of the Federal Register.
12. Guide for aviation medical examiners: application process for medical certification. [http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/
headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/
app_history/item17a/index.cfm?print=go]. FAA, 2006. Date accessed: January 2007.
13. Municipal police officers’ medical standards and essential functions. Public Employee Retirement Administration Commission. Commonwealth of Massachusetts: Sommerville, Mass., 2004.
14. Medical Screening Manual for California Law Enforcement. California Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training. Sacramento, Ca., 2004.
TOMMY BALDWIN, MS, is with the NIOSH Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program, Cardiovascular Disease Component, Cincinnati, Ohio. He is a National Association of Fire Investigators (NAFI)-certified fire and explosion investigator, an International Fire Service Accreditation Congress (IFSAC)-certified fire officer I, and a former firefighter/EMT and chief. He has a B.S. in fire investigation and an M.S. in loss prevention and safety from Eastern Kentucky University.
TOM HALES, MD, MPH, is the team leader for the NIOSH Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program, Cardiovascular Disease Component, Cincinnati, Ohio. He is board certified in internal medicine and occupational medicine and is a member of the NFPA Technical Committee Fire Service Occupational Safety and Health.
except for one thing, Grant McKee was under strict orders to obey his superior so no matter what drugs were in him he did exactly as Marsh and Steed told him to do and the other 16 were in agreement also.
Here’s a question for RTS: Do you consider it ‘free will’ if a crew boss is urged several times by a supervisor, because he has reservations ie: ‘doesn’t like it’ ‘bad vibe’ etc, to move a crew by a DIVS that happens to be the crew’s superintendent in his regular position, which summarily leads to the death of said crew? Who on the GMIHC do you believe was acting on their own free will that afternoon that led to their death? Only one? Two? Five? Nineteen? How many and whom?
Just bringing this to the top. Not sure if this his stance, but it seems relevant, And I still hope to hear an answer. Seems like the answer is 0, or 19. Yes?
RTS said
Sonny,
The GMHS left their SZ of the own accord. They ‘aaccepted the risk’ as the lawyers say,
and hiked down to their deaths.
Nobody forced them or made them leave.
And I agree that once Marsh realized his bad decision would lead to the death of his Crew, he decided it best to join them, thus committing suicide.
Gary,
You posted: “Do you consider it ‘free will’ if a crew boss is urged several times by a supervisor, because he has reservations ie: ‘doesn’t like it’ ‘bad vibe’ etc, to move a crew by a DIVS that happens to be the crew’s superintendent in his regular position, which summarily leads to the death of said crew? Who on the GMIHC do you believe was acting on their own free will that ?afternoon that led to their death? Only one? Two? Five? Nineteen? How many and whom?”
Yes, I believe it was “free will” for ALL 19 GMHS to follow the order(s) that led to their deaths on June 30, 2013.
DIVS Marsh had possibly been given an ‘order’ to go protect the BSR, although I believe he came up with that one on his own, with possibly suggestions and urging from STPS Cordes. He could have said NO.
I believe Steed was following ‘order(s)’ from DIVS Marsh based on his Marine Corps training and experience as well as the other two GMHS Marines based on ‘free will.’ This MAY have been a catalyst for the other GMHS to follow along with the ‘order(s).’ He/they could have said NO.
And lastly, the entire GMHS Crew was following ‘order(s)’ based on ‘free will’ when they willingly (some reluctantly?) left the black and their Safety Zone to hike to their deaths. They could have said NO individually and/or collectively.
McDonough stated that the GMHS leadership allowed for that kind of discussion and dissent in some of his interviews. I doubt that because I think they would have stayed put if they really did what he said. So, you’ll have to decide whether you want to believe him based on his habit of lying.
NO BODY FORCED THEM. THEY ALL DID IT OF THEIR OWN ‘FREE WILL.’ THEY HAD MANY OTHER, BETTER CHOICES TO NOT LEAVE THEIR SAFETY ZONE.
One of the Hot Shot Supts working on the May 2013 Thompson Ridge Fire (NM -SNF) with the GMHS under Steed, said they were doing a burning operation one evening and encountered a bunch of spotfires. He said there was good, safe black nearby with numerous, good Escape Routes. He also said there was absolutely NO problem with fire behavior or any of the other usual hazards.
This HS Supt. talked with Steed and requested the assistance of the GMHS in containing and controlling the sheer number of spotfires. He said Steed refused based on some safety concern he had.
So, on the Thompson Ridge Fire, with opportunities to aggressively and safely assist the other HS Crew with a lot of spot fires when it was safe to do so, Steed refused to help the other HS Crew.
Yet, on the YH Fire when it was absolutely UNSAFE to leave their Safety Zone and travel through the unburned downhill in chutes and into the brush choked bowl below to their deaths, this was the choice they made.
WTF? I don’t get it.
Sonny,
You posted: “… Grant McKee was under strict orders to obey his superior so no matter what drugs were in him he did exactly as Marsh and Steed told him to do and the other 16 were in agreement also.”
The WFF world is QUASI military, meaning we follow a lot of the military precepts (chain of command, following orders, etc.) and such but we do NOT ‘willingly’ give our lives as the media and some public believe.
WFF are NOT held to the “under strict orders to obey his superior so no matter what” standard. The RX drugs in McKee’s bloodstream, like the ethyl alcohol in many of the other GMHS, definitely IMPAIRED THEIR JUDGEMENT AND REDUCED THEIR ABILITY TO MAKE RATIONAL AND SAFE DECISIONS.
And we do NOT have to blindly follow orders IF they are UNSAFE, ILLEGAL, IMMORAL, and/or UNETHICAL. And STUPID orders as well with the proper response from the WFF to the supervisor.
He and the others had a choice to obey the order or not to obey it. For whatever reason – even though they likely knew and/or felt it was NOT a good idea – they obeyed the order and left their perfectly good Safety Zone.
I believe that Steed was following orders to comply with Marsh’s command to come down to the BSR based on his Marine Corps training and experience. I believe this applied to the other two GMHS Marines as well, and so with the three GMHS Marines accepting and following Marsh’s orders, even though stupid and unsafe, set the stage for the rest of the GMHS to follow.
RTS,
I respectfully disagree with your position here.
I believe handcrews are a ‘tight knit’ group, especially the more elite type 1 crews. A crew culture is developed and cultivating when working closely all fire season long. It is intrinsic to the success of the crew’s to have faithful and obedient members. There are pressures to follow orders and you are correct, that we are trained to speak up, in theory, but in practice how often does it really happen? Would you consider this being common the sign of a good crew member or would you be frustrated by the ‘insubordination’? Honestly? Not how you say it should be but how it IS.
You yourself, as a long, long time HS superintendent made it sound to me like you operated as more than a crew boss but more like a ‘life coach,’ teacher or parent.
You said:
“I encouraged our guys to talk about all kinds of things, instead of and other than mindless sports and/or movie stars and/or science fiction and other blather. I encouraged them to talk about things with substance instead of worthless, mindless fluff.
Some of them could spout off literally HUNDREDS of worthless sports statistics, yet complain that it was SO difficult to memorize ‘The WFF Rules.’ OMG, a whole 50-plus live-saving-truisms.
We even had the ‘Word of the Day’ and you had to define it and use it in a sentence related to something we did.
And I was kind of a stickler on ‘The King’s English’ as well, NOT allowing the infernal DOUBLE NEGATIVES, e.g. “I ain’t go none” and :I ain’t never been there” and the like.”
You were even a ‘stickler’ on how your crew members spoke the English language, what hobbies or interests they had, and vocabulary. It sounds like you ran a tight ship.
I believe the crew was largely young, less experienced wff’s and either would not know to say no OR would not dare to do so because of their crew culture and tight ship under Willis and Marsh.
Your knowledge and experience is invaluable to the conversation, RTS.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Glad you’re back. I knew you would eventually.
You posted: “It is intrinsic to the success of the crew’s to have faithful and obedient members. There are pressures to follow orders and you are correct, that we are trained to speak up, in theory, but in practice how often does it really happen? Would you consider this being common the sign of a good crew member or would you be frustrated by the ‘insubordination’? Honestly? Not how you say it should be but how it IS.
“You yourself, as a long, long time HS superintendent made it sound to me like you operated as more than a crew boss but more like a ‘life coach,’ teacher or parent.”
Yes, I agree that “we are trained to speak up,” and NOT just “in theory.” It has to be talked about and inculcated in practice and in training and in real, everyday work ethic and more, You ask how often really happens, and I say it depends on how you manage your Crew.
I practiced the ‘Team Member’ versus ‘Team Player’ concept. I am NOT a Team Player and I did NOT want them on my Crew. Team Players are ‘yes men’ and ‘kiss asses’ and ‘brown-nosers’ and obsequious sycophants (look that one up).
I wanted Team Members that would follow orders when they needed to, if and when they were good, sound, safe orders and if NOT, then they needed to be COMFORTABLE ENOUGH to speak up. It was in our Standard Operating Procedures (SOP). Yes, it is a might more difficult to manage a Crew that way, but huge payoffs in the end.
I found that the ‘smart asses’ and minor troublemakers made the best Senior Crewmembers and Squad Bosses MOST of the time, because they had no problem ‘pushing the envelope’ and thinking ‘outside the box’ on their own. I did NOT want ‘sheeple.’ I wanted independent thinkers that followed orders when need and spoke up with concerns and options and such when needed.
The Crewmembers were REQUIRED to read leadership books throughout the season AND give verbal book reports. Our Team Building and Leadership training library was rife with military, mostly SEALS, Rangers, Mountaineers, and all types of Outliers, like Quantrells’ Raiders in the Civil War or Pappy Boyington’s Black Sheep Squadron in WWII). There were also some sports and some business leadership books, BUT that’s NOT what we do.
The WF world is quasi-military. Most times, we TRAINED harder than we worked on fires, so the fires were almost easy for them. We trained realistically and we caught some flack for that. Hostile work environment again, but only when we had namby-pamby, spineless, insecure supervisors.
Yes, in many ways, I did in fact operate as much more than a crew boss and instead more like a ‘life coach,’ teacher or parent. Yes indeed, especially when we had to teach these ‘kids’ things that their parents never taught them; like ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ and ‘yes/no ma-am’ and ‘yes/no sir’ and that kind of stuff. We had to put in our SOP that you had to conceal yourself when we pulled over for piss breaks alongside the road because it didn’t ‘bother’ them, even though it said U.S. F**king Government on the sides of the trucks!
And who TF cares about this sports team or player or statistics or whatever and how is that going to keep you alive on the firelines. OMG! Hostile work environment. No, the hostile work environment is the fire and the fireline. It discriminates equally and does NOT care if you are tall or short, blond, brunette, what color you are, or disoriented. The fire does NOT care.
Stuff like that.
And the double negative? We are NOT communicating when they say one thing and I interpret it as something else.
I was fortunate to have an Assistant (former military) that was willing to manage the Crew that way. If I said “yes” to an assignments, he would take the opposite stance and say “no.” And then we would ‘hash it out’ and come up with the best choice. The Crew always thought we were arguing or fighting but we were fleshing out the details to come up with the best option(s), always having a Plan B or even Plan C at times.
And if there were IMT’s that had issues with me or my management style or because I had turned down assignments in the past or whatever, then I had him speak for me and the Crew.
I went to a California Hot Shot meeting after the Stanza Fire fatalities on the Klamath NF on Jul 28, 2002, when my friend Heather was killed in this predictable and preventable Engine rollover/ Anyway, her father came to the meeting and spoke to us, opening his heart and soul to us, telling us that THEY (parent, families, friends, and loved ones) give US supervisors and leaders their family, friends, and loved ones to work for us and to keep them safe and sound. There was hardly a dry eye in the group.
The primary job of a WF supervisor is the safety and welfare of those he supervises. BOSS spelled backwards is ‘DOUBLE SOB.’ We are NOT there to be their FRIEND, we are there to be their BOSS!
So, YES, ‘life coach,’ teacher or parent.
RTS,
I like your style – the fire service needs more leaders with similar style! I have always respected Sups/Eng. Captains that would tell me what they really thought,
Thanks Norb. Those are the kind of supervisors and leaders I learned from and respected them for that too. So may as well pass on what worked and ‘pay it forward’ as they say.
Calvin-
so looking at the couple—I remember a neighbor near him showing his photos so let me go get in touch with him because a retardant drop was done in that area—and he has on ground pics—and they are time stamped correct and maybe there is vehicle pics in it I never took notice to prior.
you hear them talk about their neighbor Yetta Huntimer in video
she is buried same place as my grandfather—
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/azcentral/obituary.aspx?pid=174357158
Marti- we are slowly trying to post here for John Dougherty each street and who died on it since this fire and so we can properly get an analysis started of the amount of deaths and who lived there and who moved away and who is ill or who has died…than eventually WWTKTT can layer on a map the deaths with an overlay of retardant drops—WWTKTT is SUPERB on gathering info and organizing it and if Tex or I die—at least there is a place HERE where I can go street by street and begin sharing who died to come to the end with the accurate number since my research is on a bluff in Lovelock NV…hope that helps you understand me posting links for people so my sources are here public vs in my head or in a file unorganized
Thanks Joy.
I think mapping that is really important.
Joy asked, “Gary, question to you…what is an area you feel we need to speak more about on the YHF…I keep feeling you are holding back on publicly speaking on a topic and I have no clue why but I feel it”
Nope…I have never held anything back, everyone who has been reading my posts know literally everything I know. Oversharing is my problem…not under sharing. And nobody should tell me anything they don’t want me to share. If it can’t be public info, I don’t want to know it. I do want the responsibility of sitting on any information on this topic. I don’t need that guilt trip.
As far as what I think we need to talk about is a moot point. I actually think we are at an impasse without additional information from those who have it. Who knew what and when did they know it. And who did what and why did they do it.
I don’t even want the Blue Ridge Hotshots to share something that is going to cause them problems. If I were a young man who still had a family to support with a wife who expected me to bring home the bacon I would keep my mouth shut as well. I just think they should say, “Fuck you…I am not talking to you because I don’t want to talk to you! I don’t even like you or what you stand for, this is OUR house, stay the fuck out of it, we built it!” Rather than blaming it on a gag order.
And Bob actually missed my point when we were called into the Forest Supervisors Office when they pulled the blinds and ordered us to keep our mouths shut and not to talk to anybody about the Battlement Creek Fire. THAT was not a Gag Order, that was a keep your fucking mouth shut order.
I look back on that fire and I am still amazed by how it was handled, given the peer counseling advisers and all of the concern about mental health these days. Let me make one thing crystal clear, we were mopping up the fire right NEXT to where the bright flagging marked where their bodies had laid early the next morning!
Furthermore, we never even talked about that fire or what happened among ourselves, ever, at anytime. It was like it didn’t even happen. We kept joking about “crispy critters” (Vietnam vet influence) and beyond the initial shock while the event was happening, nothing about that event ever seemed to bother anybody (Happy Jack Hotshot) ever. We didn’t even talk about it while it was happening in real time, we just stood there in silence. Looking back, it was really weird.
And just to clarify what I think the difference is between a “Gag Order” and a “Keep Your Fucking Mouth Shut Order” is the the first is an official order based on some authority, either statutory or by policy or directive authorized by those who are authorized to sign those kinds of orders by statutory authority since unlike the example Otis gave, and WTKTT keeps writing, these are NOT private companies who spent private money and have private employees.
And the latter is based on informal, bullying, unofficial, probably illegal or at least against everything this country theoretically stands for. AND quite the opposite is true, rather then those actions being based on legal statutory authority, those actions are in clear violation of the spirit if not the actual wording of all of the laws that are designed so that the American people will know just what the fuck their government is up to in how they run our country using our tax dollars except when it comes to national security issues or concerns that may violate someone’s right to privacy, so they went in for mental health counseling because of a traumatic event. Other than that, there should not be anything that happened on or in the aftermath of the YHF that we can’t know about.
BUT, we all know there is the way things are supposed to work and then there is the way they do work. And there are a lot of public servants who think the laws do not apply to them and short of some really expensive lawyers to sue them in court or armed rebellion, what can we do about it except blog?
I will confirm the gag order this month as I sit and interview them—
soon….
Hey, I keep my cell EMPTY and I got a strange text-
from lady who is not in my cell at all and yet I know her because she is an actress I know and so here it goes:
Actress: 3:41pm text—- “I’m dealing with screaming baby at the moment, but what can I do?? How can I help??
I was on that cell with VA from 3:20 appx 20 minutes and as I hung up I saw blink of text and read it and I replied at 3:45pm “what is this?” and then I saw text area had scroll bar and I never keep any information on my cell so I scroll up and see which APPEARS to be FROM me to HER at 3:38pm “Please help me!” and one right after “I am in longitude 112.76105512 and latitude 34.2127906 Please help me!”
Soooo I text her I did not send the please help me and have no clue how she got one from me because my cell carries no contact list or information ????—we googled it and it says ruzhou pingingshan henan china and she thought it was even stranger because recently from a warehouse there was a hostage note from CHINA that her mom was involved with knowing about so we are both like ???? so I contacted my cell company but it was weird—anyone else have odd things like that happen???
i relooked at the text and it has “-” before the number and that on google gps came back Sonny’s spot…???
very strange but now I know I was hacked but HOW they got her number is strange because I do not leave any number on that cell
and all my perimeter cameras only show normal wildlife from lion to javelina to quail and hawks and dog and cats but no people…????
how does one hack in and write something dumb like that? on a private cell number only a few even know…???
phone carrier says it takes 4-6 weeks to investigate where the text came from…wow…everything is so fast pace in life EXCEPT investigations, huh
Joy… if you are using an Android based smartphone… then it sounds like it could be something called the ‘Stagefright’ virus.
It uses a known flaw in the Android operating system to ‘take over’ any smartphone just by SENDING a text messages ( also known as an SMS message ) to that phone number.
You don’t even have to OPEN or READ the text message. Once the carrier forwards that malicious text message to your phone and it ‘receives’ it in the background… you are already ‘infected’.
Is it possible this other person is the one that had YOUR phone number on THEIR phone or in THEIR contact list?
If so… then you could just be what’s called a ‘chain target’ and you got the malware text message just because it already found your number in HER ‘Contact list’.
is the phone no good? burn it? toss it?
See the following link…
TechAdvisor Online
Article Title: How to stop Android text message virus: Protect Android phone from Stagefright MMS attack
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/google-android/how-stop-android-text-message-virus-app-3621072/
There is a FIX ( called a ‘patch’ ) for the Android operating system that can ‘fix’ it and prevent it from happening again… but that ‘fix’ is hard to find and install because Google doesn’t want to admit that this vulnerability exists and is already being widely exploited.
Just read the article above regarding ‘what to do’.
What appears to have happened to you might NOT be based on this text message virus… but it sure sounds like it.
Thank you
That about king geo and quene lizzy should go behind Cordes in my comment.
I wonder how many times i have backed up a lie. I have been in jail for that more than once since i am not a rat. I have spent time in jail and looked like the roque of the world for it. So I am in common with the fools that lie on the Yarnell incident. Now that I was not trying to get noteriety but that i wanted to protect ;someone else.
My brother is a rat. He has spent 27 years in an Arizona prison for his greed. He is dangerous, but then I know his life. We grew up together, and I fed the family off the land. My sisters hated my Dad, my brother didn’t give a shit. Brother Jerry used my name in Ireland and I got listed as an attempted murderer. I told that shit when he got 0ut of prison to stay out of my area. I am afraid of him only because I wont kill my own brother. Greed took him down and will keep him down unless he does as every convict does, turn to God. Money-50 grand and a letter from my sis got him out. But as his brother I trust him as much as he can throw a bull with his tail.
Cops and investigators that say they are are no better than what they are into. My Dad told me that the ruling authority was the man on the dolla. True to manny but not all. Too many though. Dad knew of the cronies, knew of the corruption, but he like most of us wanted to survive it all. Joy is righ, trust no one, get the facts, and then know what is right.
No, but I just sent all of the money I have left to Nigeria because as soon as they get it, they are going to release 100 million dollars (.U.S.) to my checking account and I get to keep half of that for paying the Nigerian customs fees for the funds that are currently being held.
Once I get that money, I am going to pay for everybody to go to a YHF conference in Prescott so we can have group hugs, and we are going to give RTS a special big group hug! Drinks will be on ME!
I saw what you did there.
In other words, “they” are using implied threats, intimidation, cold stares, the threat of being ostracized from the “tribe” which is very, very, very powerful tool to maintain silence to get their way and there is nothing in writing based on any authority to do what they are doing. BUT it works very effectively. Which is why I think somebody should send me any anonymous letter to;
Gary Olson
700 Sleater Kinney RD SE,
STE B – 243
Lacey, WA, 98503
“I actually think we are at an impasse”
I agree completely and I think that has been the source of the fear, and thus the anger, and frustration that we have taken out on each other.
We can’t really go any further without information that we know is out there. And so there is a tendency to brow-beat whoever “we” think might have “access” to that information. As if that is going to incline anybody to share that information.
It is, indeed, frustrating.
Also, I find it frustrating to not know how to make what we do know (at the price of two plus years of this conversation and digging) more accessible, publicly, in a meaningful way.
Hasta, Gary.
I can see now your anger and my own by the way at why things at Yarnell were handled the way they were. The blinds and blinders where here as well. In our older wisdom we get angry when we see so many lives destroyed or wrongly altered, and I mean not only the 19 but those that are connected. Yet this whole thing was treated as a “God thing” so no one takes responsibility and we act like it was all a cruise and when the weather turned bad and the captain forgot to have enough lif-e boats on board and was too drunk to turn the ship into the waves and the ship turned over then it was God’s will that most of the people died. except that he got on the first life boat and survived.
This whole damn thing stinks to high heaven for sure, and if these people do not come forward and admit to the whole truth of the matter then they stink to high heaven as well. Being a miner and mucker and a bad mother fucker in my time a stinking mining job never let me deny the truth. I have quit more than one mine and even thrown a pipe wrench at one superintendent for his bull shit. I have taken my check when things were not right and trucked down the road to new and better options. Too many gutless people who fear the truth. Old Jack was right, I do get pissed when people can not handle the truth.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 3, 2016 at 6:14 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> for Gary Cordes to allow a media article to lay this claim — and also gain firefighter
>> of the year and all else tied to this— I think that reporter Anne Ryman who we know
>> should go back and show like we did a photo of Cordes and find out WHO REALLY
>> saved Smith then Pearl in a forestry truck— IT MATTERS!
Joy… long before Anne Ryman wrote that AZCENTRAL article… Gary Cordes had already made the claim in his own Unit Log AND in his testimony to ADOSH investigators about these TWO rescues he performed, saving TWO people each time ( for a total of FOUR people ).
From Gary Cordes’ handwritten Unit Log…
—————————————————————————-
1620 – Entered subdivision of Glen Ilah removing 4 stranded
elderly on several trips in and out. Turned over to ambulance for TX.
—————————————————————————-
In Gary Cordes’ ADOSH testimony on September 11, 2013, his account of these ‘rescues’ he says he performed begins on PDF page 37 of his interview transcript, starting with text line 1619.
NOTE: This is an ‘abridged’ version of his full testimony from that section of his transcript and it just ‘summarizes’ what he said he did, in his own words.
——————————————————–
( After the news about the deployment… ) I went in ( to the Glen Ilah subdivison ) and started scouting, I know the SO was in there, I believe Paul might’ve been in there as well, Paul Musser, but uh, many of us were drivin’ the roads in there just making sure people were getting out. We made contact with a large number of people who had various reasons why they were not going to evacuate.
** RESCUE 1 ( OF 2 )…
At one point I drove up Manzanita Trail uh, structures on both sides of the road were on fire and I saw an elderly couple walking down the road and there was almost zero visibility in there and, and uh, with the smoke laying in there 40 plus mile an hour winds and two elderly people holding hands walking out in their pajamas, and um, so I pulled up, they asked me to uh, if they could please get a ride and I told them to get in the vehicle very abruptly and uh, assisted the elderly woman into the vehicle and the elderly gentleman got in and, and I took them back out to the Ranch Restaurant um, dropped them off with the crews and I re-entered the subdivision.
** RESCUE 2 ( OF 2 )…
I back to north and decided to make one more run into the Manzanita area up in there. Came across a gentleman waving me down in the smoke, uh, told him to get into the vehicle… He informed me he had a, he had a uh, handicapped uh, disable neighbor, elderly woman who was – he was trying to carry her out and he couldn’t, uh, he was unable to carry her any farther. I asked him where she was, he pointed uh, on a road that was fairly unattainable, all of the structures on the north side were on fire. So I made an attempt to go down that road and uh, he advised me to be careful so I wouldn’t run her over. She was in the road, and she was. I picked her up, got her into the vehicle… got her over, put her in an ambulance at the uh, back at the Ranch Restaurant.
——————————————————–
So that’s it for Gary Cordes’ ADOSH testimony regarding any ‘rescues’ he performed, and the FOUR people he rescued… for which he would eventually receive that Arizona Wildfire Academy “Firefighter of the Year” award.
Just the TWO rescues… and TWO people both times.
And he was making this claim in BOTH his (signed) Unit Log and in his ADOSH testimony.
The FIRST ‘story’ seems to match the reports of Bob and Ruth Hart ( both in their 90’s ) getting ‘stuck’ out on Manzanita Drive when their Honda Ridgeline truck got ‘hung up’ in a culvert and they had to exit the vehicle and start ‘walking out’ holding hands and dressed only in their pajamas.
AZCENTRAL also reported about this FIRST ‘rescue’ that Cordes was describing to ADOSH and they are the ones who first reported that it was most likely Bob and Ruth Hart.
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Mystery man lauded for rescues during Yarnell Hill fire
Published: 7:36 a.m. EDT March 31, 2014 by Anne Ryman
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/03/31/mystery-man-rescued-residents-yarnell-hill-fire/7104773/
From that article…
————————————————————
Cordes, who was in a designated safety zone near the restaurant, decided to drive into Glen Ilah to warn people sometime after 4:20 p.m.
He encountered an elderly couple walking down Manzanita Drive, holding hands and dressed in pajamas. A friend of the couple believes this was Bob and Ruth Hart. The Harts declined to be interviewed. But they toldtheir close friend Richard Harris, who lives in Peeples Valley and checks on them regularly, what they remember about that afternoon.
Harris said the couple fled the fire in their Honda Ridgeline truck. In the smoke and chaos, Bob Hart, who is 94, turned the wrong way out of the driveway. He headed into the mouth of the fire — instead of out of Glen Ilah. He tried to turn around, but the truck got hung up on a culvert in a neighbor’s yard. The Harts scrambled out and, gripping hands, began walking out in the intense heat.
“Bob is not a guy who cusses much,” Harris said. But in his slippers with thin soles, he told Harris his feet “got hotter than hell.”
The Harts weren’t sure how long or how far they walked, Harris said, before Cordes found them, picked them up and drove them to the Ranch House.
“The guy took a huge chance,” said Harris, who is a former fire chief for the Peeples Valley Fire Department.”But kudos to him because they probably would have died.”
————————————————————
The SECOND RESCUE reported by Gary Cordes to ADOSH ( above ) is that same ‘story’ that matches exactly what Bryan Smith told AZCENTRAL ( in the same article with link above ) about his own rescue and the rescue of his 85 year old cousin Peal Moore.
However… unless there was some OTHER rescue with details almost identical to what Bryan Smith was saying happened to him and Pearl… then Bryan Smith himself seems to be confirming that it could NOT have been Gary Cordes performing this SECOND ( of the TWO ) rescues he was claiming he performed.
I don’t know if Bob and Ruth Hart are able to ‘confirm’ anything or not… but it would also be interesting to hear THEM describe what the VEHICLE looked like that rescued THEM that day.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Let’s get this story correct so WWTKTT does not use media articles as golden information
The ‘information’ that Gary Cordes rescued FOUR people that afternoon was/is coming from Gary Cordes himself… and THOSE are the claims that got him the “Firefighter of the Year” award.
AZCENTRAL was just trying to ‘match up people’ to the stories Cordes had ALREADYT told in both his signed Unit Log and in his ADOSH interview.
Bryan was snail mailed today with question WWTKTT—let you know as I know…ok.
h t t p://www.usatoday.c o m/story/news/nation/2014/03/31/mystery-man-rescued-residents-yarnell-hill-fire/7104773/
SOURCE OF ARTICLE: “He encountered an elderly couple walking down Manzanita Drive, holding hands and dressed in pajamas. A friend of the couple believes this was Bob and Ruth Hart. The Harts declined to be interviewed. But they told their close friend Richard Harris, who lives in Peeples Valley and checks on them regularly, what they remember about that afternoon.”
sooo….
“a friend of”…is like me saying Grant McKee told me blah blah blah and I post it here when the fact is if Grant wanted you to know the information it should come from him not me and if I say it anyways than it is the public’s job to FACT CHECK being Anne was denied interviews from Cordes due to lawsuits and even the couple than why publish it AS IS based on ADOSH interview which was just a sworn testimony not fact checked like our accounts were fact checked during this whole aftermath—BUT I have the capabilities to follow up on this topic except the Hart’s sold property that burned (will ask Michelle Jacobsen or Steve more on this…and get back to you)—but I do have filed a public video moment they spoke in front of some of the loved ones of GMHS—unable to get to video but it is in one of those dropbox links I posted here on IM that none ever clicked and looked at for it had no views-
or you can reach the man yourself in article who told story on Hart family-
Attn: Richard John Harris
18279 S Country Club Dr
Peeples Valley, Arizona
ZIP Code: 86332-8713
Phone number: (928) 899-7072
or browse through Kurt Florman’s videos—P1050035
https://www.youtube.com/user/kurtsnotes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m303glVqaWQ&index=1&list=FL7Ddlp39FV7S07qbKPCL2xg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_AjhL448ZA&index=14&list=LL7Ddlp39FV7S07qbKPCL2xg
he also left late,,,he would be one to ask more details
looking up history of some videos and I have to say THANK YOU wwtktt because alot of my history is information you shared and thank you for all those video efforts-
thank you for your efforts and time
yet the important one I want to pull has vanished off my history—
My dad who just passed on is with me…I am looking at history and out of the blue on the cell it popped and played this song…Bee Gees was my father’s band and it is raining right now…so strange because he wanted this certain way of life yet never did the work or steps to live it because he had lung cancer since the 80’s and had a slow insidious journey of bad bad health…and figured his capabilities were too limited and I think Marti that is the core to WHY I stretch myself different with the one foot in front of the other motto—my brother does traditional methods for his brain tumor and listens to docs and is on meds and that is what I avoid—no pharmecuticals for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frA2K5oqm54
BEE GEES LYRICS
“How Can You Mend A Broken Heart?”
I can think of younger days when living for my life
Was everything a man could want to do.
I could never see tomorrow, but I was never told about the sorrow.
And how can you mend a broken heart?
How can you stop the rain from falling down?
How can you stop the sun from shining?
What makes the world go round?
How can you mend a this broken man?
How can a loser ever win?
Please help me mend my broken heart and let me live again.
I can still feel the breeze that rustles through the trees
And misty memories of days gone by
We could never see tomorrow, noone said a word about the sorrow.
And how can you mend a broken heart?
How can you stop the rain from falling down?
How can you stop the sun from shining?
What makes the world go round?
How can you mend this broken man?
How can a loser ever win?
Please help me mend my broken heart and let me live again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEJnz2IG9_M
i like raw videos like this—any homeowners with footage like this— can you post it here.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCO9bm5mGf8gGWixYjomeyWg/videos
looking at history I always can watch this one…good stuff in it that compliments videos we seen as well as what was shown to us at casino last Wildland Convention and how we KNOW there is more information out there…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UVL8pxSBJc&feature=youtu.be
to a specific person: I know you finally met the woman of your dreams and had a kid this year…but you could help bring clarity…and so I hope one day you do
you gotta love Dudley-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWm3myJdQO4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qu4YTIkd5I
http://obits.arizonagravestones.org/view.php?id=73651
reason I told John Dougherty it takes a person who knows the community and knows how much after the fire the folks who moved away to get PROPER death account but here above is documented video and evidence of one who died- and left the area…and to lay the deaths upon one of the ones wwtktt does to then lay the retardant drop and do a proper analysis there
Joy… thank you for a reminder about all these videos.
One of your YouTube video links above ‘auto forwarded’ to another Yarnell video that I’d never seen before.
It was shot by Linda Silvia in a car with her husband Paul as they were returning to Glen Ilah on July 8, 2013 only to discover their home at the west end of Glen Ilah was completely destroyed.
It’s one of the best videos of seen of the damage on either side of Fountainhill and Foothill Drives as one heads deep into the west part of Glen Ilah.
YouTube Video
Uploaded July 8, 2013 by Linda Silvia
162 views as of January 4, 2015
Video Title: Yarnell Hill fire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFesqdNeKmg
When the video starts, they are headed west on Fountainhill road.
Then they head southwest on Mountainaire Drive.
Then they head west on Foothill Drive.
Then they take a left and head south on Barker Lane for just a moment, but then take that dirt driveway off Barker Lane west towards what used to be their house.
What used to be their house was exactly here at the end of that dirt driveway…
34.215764, -112.765961
Their residence was one of the western-most houses in Glen Ilah, only 652 yards due southwest of the center of the Boulder Springs Ranch.
The Yavapai County Tax Assessor’s parcel number for their property was parcel number 203-15-001B and the parcel Owner name is listed as Paul J. Silvia.
okay…I have posted that link before on here in prior chapter…it was Paul Silvia’s property and that is the very area we travelled through at end of day for Sonny’s car was parked in front of Susan McCrary’s place who was Paul’s neighbor on 6-30-13…so you have McCrary’s place that was sold at auction same day as 320 acres state land and than Paul’s than the hill behind him is 37.19 acres/hill of ex Goodyear councilman Frank Cavalier that Phoenix New Times covered about 7-8 yrs ago where his wife Dr. Jamie was on the bank board I mentioned on here before and her dad was Charles Scarafiotti who served in the 109th Evacuation Hospital under General Patton. Their property is in hydrology area…that he borders the Helm’s…I thought I would of saw more public involvement from Frank and Jamie since the fire…input or opinion…????
WWTKTT- Barker Lane is Silvia’s place—too funny because that is where we parked in that area and now Sonny lives off Barker Way…
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=302806319879003&id=194387097387593
which that link was originally shown on here
https://www.facebook.com/Yarnell-Hill-Recovery-Group-194387097387593/
https://fundly.com/rebuild-yarnell
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xv/#comment-302300
I mention Bryan
I also mentioned George’s wife here
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xv/#comment-302306
link to when I mentioned Paul
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xv/#comment-302309
The lady on this video says her husband heard mayday calls coming from GMH on a police officers radio. Would like to know more about this
Condolences can be sent to George Dubaskas, 3 Meadowview Dr., Selinsgrove, PA 17870.
So maybe you can try him direct on your questions-
I know when we came back from evacuations it seem I was always for some reason letting them ahead of us anywhere we were and I had no clue he lost his home and his wife just because of my courtesy kindness to my elders—plus they had a freaking lien placed on them due to ambulance visit— I wish he would sit down and tell more of his 6-30-13 account too, Calvin. I cannot tell you how some accounts should be talked about more…
actually Calvin- I feel confident- I will go write it now and snail mail it tomorrow—ok.
I know what I can write about…
Reply to calvin post on January 4, 2016 at 5:23 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> The lady on this video says her husband heard mayday
>> calls coming from GMH on a police officers radio.
>> Would like to know more about this
The Air-To-Ground radio channel ( which we know Steed and Caldwell used for those initial MAYDAY calls heard in Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet Cam video ) was not any kind of ‘secret’ channel.
It was part of the commonly-known bank of channels that Arizona Forestry uses and even someone with a Radio Shack hobby scanner could have been listening to that channel.
So it doesn’t seem all that unusual that police officers who were there that day ( DPS officers especially ) would have had that commonly known Air-To-Ground channel.programmed into their radios and been ‘scanning’ that channel.
The ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel is one of the most popular channels on any fire. It’s where the ‘action’ is and you hear the ground people talking to the airplanes… and the air people telling the ground people what they can see from ‘up there’.
For that reason alone ( because it’s a popular channel )… it still remains a mystery why more people did not testify to hearing that bit of Air-To-Ground radio traffic that supposedly took place between DIVSA Eric Marsh and John Burfiend in ‘Air Attack’ Bravo-33 circa 1637.
The SAIR document has always had this little blurb in it…
——————————————————–
At 1637, ASM2 flies a drop path for a VLAT north of Yarnell west to east and apparently over DIVS A, turning northward to avoid high ground at the end of Yarnell. DIVS A, seeing the flight, calls and calmly says, “[ASM2], Division Alpha, That’s exactly what we’re looking for. That’s where we want the retardant.”
——————————————————–
Yet the ONLY testimony from ANYONE in the public record about this Air-To-Ground radio transmission comes from John Burfiend himself.
Despite ALL the other people on that fire who were KNOWN to be listening to the Air-To-Ground channel… NO ONE ELSE ever reported hearing that same transmission.
And then the SAIT somehow deemed that to be a ‘verified transmission’ and they used THAT specific transmission as the de-facto END of this supposed ‘no one was hearing from them for 30 minutes’ blackout period… despite actually having actual RECORDINGS of MANY ‘other people’ actually conversing with Marsh/Steed during those 30 minutes.
WTKTT~
I’m getting lost in the threads regarding this. I’m sure I’m not the only one.
Could you summarize what’s going on here?
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 4, 2016 at 8:16 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I’m getting lost in the threads regarding this. I’m sure I’m not the only one.
>> Could you summarize what’s going on here?
Well… AFAICT… this ‘Reply’ of YOURS was to that posting I left responding to Joy about where the actual initial reports of Gary Cordes’ ‘rescues’ first came from.
They were NOT first reported in that AZCENTRAL news article.
They were first reported by Gary Cordes himself in his own handwritten Unit Log and then in his one-and-only ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013.
When Gary Cordes was then given the “Firefighter of the Year” award by the Arizona Wildfire Academy ( which was started by Eric Marsh and one of his former wives ), AZCENTRAL ran an article where they THOUGHT they had identified exactly WHO these ‘4 elderly persons’ were that Cordes was saying he had rescued.
Rescue 1: AZCENTRAL said it was probably Bob and Ruth Hart.
Rescue 2: AZCENTRAL said it was probably Bryan Smith and his 85 year old cousin Pearl Moore.
In conversations Joy has had with Mr. Bryan Moore since then… Mr. Moore seems to be saying it was definitely NOT Gary Cordes who rescued him and Pearl.
Joy has apparently showed Bryan a photo of Gary Corders and Bryan says whoever rescued him and Pearl was definitely YOUNGER than Cordes and now ( just in the past few days ) Mr. Smith has also verified that the VEHICLE that rescued them was NOT that Central Yavapai 4-door extended cab red and white pickup with the camper top and flat light bar that we now know was the vehicle Gary Cordes was driving that day.
Bryan Smith has only said ( so far ) that the ‘truck’ that rescued them was ‘forestry green’. No more details yet.
Sonny also said somewhere in all this that he believed whoever actually rescued Bryan Smith and Peal Moore *might* have been a Blue Ridge Hotshot… but he never said why he even thought that might be the case or who he might have even heard that from.
The Blue Ridge vehicles could be ‘construed’ as being ‘forestry green’. ( they were actually aquamarine but I could see someone thinking that’s ‘forestry green’ )… but as I pointed out below… the Blue Ridge vehicles are ALL pretty much fully ‘accounted for’ during these ‘rescue’ timeframes with actual photographic and video evidence. There is no evidence any one of them ever left the Ranch House Restaurant ( once they parked there ) in the timeframe(s) in question.
The only other ‘pickup truck’ I can think of offhand that was known to be there that afternoon and would have been ‘all aquamarine’ ( same color as Blue Ridge vehciles ) was Jason Clawson’s Prescott National Forest command vehicles.
But it was a just a TWO-DOOR pickup with a camper top… AND Jason Clawson was hauling a trailer and his own ATV around that afternoon.
So it’s a big mystery whether or not Gary Cordes ever actually did at least one of those ‘rescues’ that he testified to ADOSH about ( the Bryan Smith / Pearl Moore rescue ).
Maybe he did. Maybe he didn’t.
But something is not matching up at all here.
Gary Cordes’ ‘story’ DOES match what Bryan Smith himself says happened… but Bryan Smith himself seems to be saying there’s no way it was Cordes, as Cordes is claiming.
The rest of it above ( the long list of links to videos )… I’m not sure where that all came from or exactly why.
Apologies.. typos up above.
I said…
————————————————
In conversations Joy has had with Mr. Bryan Moore since then… Mr. Moore seems to be saying it was definitely NOT Gary Cordes who rescued him and Pearl.
————————————————-
There is no ‘Bryan Moore’. I should have typed ‘Bryan Smith’.
Pearl Moore is Bryan Smith’s cousin but they do NOT share the same last name.
So paragraph above should have read like this…
————————————————
In conversations Joy has had with Mr. Bryan Smith since then… Mr. Smith seems to be saying it was definitely NOT Gary Cordes who rescued him and his cousin, Pearl Moore.
————————————————-
Gotcha. Thanks.
**
** TWISP FIRE UPDATE
**
** SURVIVOR DANIEL LYON NOW SAYS HE “REMEMBERS EVERYTHING”
THE SEATTLE TIMES
Article Title: ‘I remember everything … ’: Firefighter works to recover
from deadly Twisp blaze
Originally published December 19, 2015 at 7:20 pm
Updated December 21, 2015 at 8:56 am
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/northwest/i-remember-everything-twisp-firefighter-works-to-recover-from-deadly-blaze/
From the article…
——————————————————————————
Daniel Lyon Jr., 25, spends four hours a day, five days a week in grueling therapy to recover from burns suffered in a deadly summer wildfire. But the physical pain pales next to the mental pain of losing three buddies.
The heat of last summer’s deadly Twisp River blaze has been replaced with the snow of a Montana Christmas, but for Daniel Lyon Jr., the sole firefighter to survive the tragedy, it’s like it happened yesterday.
Reached Saturday at his parents’ retirement home outside Missoula, the 25-year-old reflected on his progress a month after being released from Harborview Medical Center and his struggle to come to terms with the wildfire that killed three others.
“Remembering what happened, knowing that there are buddies I lost,” he said. “The only question I have is how I made it and those guys didn’t. More than anything, I wish I could have turned around and seen those guys running behind me.”
The damage to his hands has been the most challenging, Lyon said. The tips of all 10 fingers had to be amputated because they were so badly burned, and his range of motion is severely limited.
That concerns Lyon, who had just finished training to become a reserve police officer in Milton in Pierce County and hopes to resume a career in law enforcement.
“Losing the tip of your index finger — it’s what you need to shoot a gun,” he said.
——————————————————————————
So good to see his progress… but it looks like a situation is developing identical to Yarnell and the lone survivor Brendan McDonough whereby what this ‘survivor’ actually ‘remembers’ and what he is willing to discuss will remain two separate things.
No one from the Seattle Times seemed to have even ASKED any pertinent questions that still need to be answered… but there also seems to be some situation where even though Daniel Lyons is no longer employed by the US Forestry Service… they may STILL be controlling ‘access’ to him as they did the entire time he was ‘in hospital’… and controlling what QUESTIONS the media is ‘allowed’ to ask him.
We still don’t know who was even DRIVING the engine that ran off Woods Canyon Road when someone told them to RTO from the top of Woods Canyon Road ( where those same other FFs would eventually shelter and suffer only minor injuries ) and sent THEM back down an already-compromised escape route already full of smoke and flames.
Nor do we yet know WHO actually sent them up Woods Canyon Road in the first place to be trying to protect EMPTY HOUSES directly ABOVE a dynamic, uncontained wildfire.
Followup…
There was an interesting comment left by a user using the handle ‘OffTheFarm’ on the recent Seattle Times interview/article about Twisp Survivor Daniel Lyon.
I’m surprised they let this one through… since it wasn’t all ‘Facebooky’ sugary sweet and was actually making a STATEMENT…
What happened to him was WRONG and should have NEVER HAPPENED.
———————————————————————————–
Comment by: OffTheFarm on Dec 20, 2015
Daniel,
I think about you and the firefighters who lost their lives, your friends, often. What happened is wrong. It should never happen. I wish that I could make it be different.
We’ve a home on the south side of the Twisp River, opposite Woods Canyon West Road. It should have burned. It’s just stuff. No one should ever lose their life for stuff. No one. Ever.
I am sorry. I struggle with this. I can’t even begin to imagine how you and the families of the firefighters who passed are dealing with everything.
Take care. I wish you everything good in life. You deserve it.
Sincerely,OffTheFarm
—————————————————————————
Yeah, I saw that and was going to post it, but you beat me to it.
All it’s talking about is what he remembers about what happened after the crash, not before it.
I’m still a bit confused about the driver thing.
I agree they should never have been sent up onto that road in the first place, imho. Those are definitely two things that, if he remembers everything, he most likely has the clues to. Along with, most likely, a few other things.
I’m sure “somebody,” (in a lawyerly fashion) has told him what he “is free” to talk about and what he “isn’t.”
And I’m writing this in the spirit of what Bob has written about this being a result of the law passed after 30 Mile, while also recognizing Gary’s narrative about how it all happened before 30 Mile, anyway.
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 4, 2016 at 6:59 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> All it’s talking about is what he remembers about what
>> happened after the crash, not before it.
Correct. That’s why even now ( when he is obviously HOME and also obviously is no longer employed by USFS ) it seems like ‘access’ to him ( and what questions can be asked ) is still being ‘controlled’.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I’m still a bit confused about the driver thing.
As far as I know it has still NOT been confirmed ANYWHERE who of the other 3 FFs that died was actually drving that engine when it left the road.
It also appears from that CR(A)P Initial Summary report that USFS also has no intentions of EVER releasing that important piece of information.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I agree they should never have been sent up onto that road in
>> the first place, imho. Those are definitely two things that, if
>> he remembers everything, he most likely has the clues to.
>> Along with, most likely, a few other things.
Yep. Like WHO it was that also started waving his arm over his head and yelling at them to RTO ( Turn around and go the other way ) down an already compromised escape-route… when that fellow ( and 2 others ) would end up surviving right where they were ( and where the ones who died could have deployed as well ) with minor injuries.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I’m sure “somebody,” (in a lawyerly fashion) has told him
>> what he “is free” to talk about and what he “isn’t.”
There is no question here that Daniel Lyon was just a ‘seasonal’ employee for the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest.
He didn’t give one hoot-n-crap about being a fireman.
He wanted to be a police officer… and serving on that Engine crew was just a ‘summer job’ to him and a way to make some money.
So I’m sure the USFS is sweating bullets here that this kid will just keep “towing the line” and doing what they want/tell him to do.
USFS ‘PR specialist’ Cathy Dowd has been the one ‘assigned’ to ‘stick like glue’ to this kid from even just hours after he almost burned to death ( and his buddies DID ).
THE WENATCHEE WORLD – ONLINE
Article: Winds shifted shortly before flames overcame firefighters
Published: Aug. 25, 2015, 11:24 a.m. by Dee Riggs
https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2015/aug/23/winds-shifted-shortly-before-flames-overcame-firefighters/
In the photo at the top of that article…
US Forestry ‘PR specialist’ Cathy Dowd is right there between CR(A)P team leader John Phipps ( on the left ) and Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest.Supervisor Mike Williams ( on the right ).
She was ‘assigned’ to Daniel Lyon just hours after the incident and she has ‘stuck like glue’ to him ever since and was the one ‘arranging’ all the press conferences with his parents at the hospital the whole time he was there.
She ( and other USFS management types ) must have every finger and toe crossed that this Daniel Lyon doesn’t start to have his OWN “Slowly I turned moment” and start asking HIMSELF…
“Wait a minute. What the fuck WERE we doing up there risking our lives for EMPTY houses… and why the fuck DID someone send us down a compromised escape route without knowing if it was safe, or not?”
Here’s a photo link below from ‘the guardian’ (UK) article titled: “Obama declares state of emergency at site of out-of-control Washington fires,” with a 21 August 2015 date.
The three WFF fatalities occurred on 19 August 2015.
The photo shows four (4) WFF, some walking and some appear to be running, all of them along a paved road, in an orderly fashion.
You’ll also notice a fire vehicle (possibly a Type 3 Engine) backed in, at the house in the upper-middle background and a small spotfire along the roadside (off the tip of the third-from-right WFF’s tool).
The caption under the photo DRAMATICALLY reads: “Firefighters flee as the Twisp river fire advances unexpectedly near Twisp, Washington on Friday.” Photograph: David Ryder/Reuters
Fleeing may be a bit dramatic and over-the-top here and whether the “fire advances unexpectedly” may also be a bit dramatic because this fire is giving plenty of indicators here that it’s time to maybe disengage and relocate or move elsewhere.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/9086ea4b8b5cc26615cbe8f0e366fa3571ce6f23/0_0_3200_1920/master/3200.jpg?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=82281c09b17af62706b472fcd2a5c044
WTKTT said;
“So good to see his progress… but it looks like a situation is developing identical to Yarnell and the lone survivor Brendan McDonough whereby what this ‘survivor’ actually ‘remembers’ and what he is willing to discuss will remain two separate things.”
Do you really believe the situation with Daniel and Brendan is identical? Daniel and Brendan are vastly different individuals and the investigations are absolutely different.
Do you see it could be possible that Daniel isn’t conveying his entire experience until the joint USFS and State report is released? The investigation is still on going! Perhaps Daniel has respect for the process and no one is controlling access to him, yet you are making something out of nothing. We should all be grateful that some POS report wasn’t puked out in the first few months just to satisfy the masses.
Reply to Fire20+ post on January 6, 2016 at 4:38 pm
>> Fire20+ said…
>>
>> Do you really believe the situation with Daniel and Brendan is identical?
What I said was that “it looks like a situation is DEVELOPING” that *may* end up being fairly ‘identical’, in terms of what this person may (eventually) choose to say or not say.
“Identical’ in the sense that we are talking about LONE survivors from crews where everyone else died and that individual is probably the ONLY one who can answer some key questions with regards to ‘what really happened’…
…and they *may* or *may not* end up telling everything they know about what happened.
We already KNOW ( for a fact ) that Brendan McDonough CHOSE to not tell investigators everything he had heard that day when he was first talking to the people legally tasked with finding out exactly what happened.
Whether Daniel Lyon has already ( or will ) make the same ‘decision’… we shall see.
>> Fire20+ said…
>>
>> Daniel and Brendan are vastly different individuals
In some respects, yes… in other respects… they appear to be quite similar.
Very much ‘loyal’ to the ‘brotherhood’ and very much ‘grateful’ for the employment situation they had.
Just like McDonough, Daniel Lyon has already said that the thing he valued most was the ‘brotherhood’ thing, even though this was only Lyon’s FIRST season working as a WFF.
From the first time Daniel Lyon was ‘allowed’ to talk to the press in that public press conference held on November 18, 2015, as he was being released from that Harborview medical center…
“Those guys were truly brothers to me.”
“For Andrew, Tom and Rick and their families – I don’t want their legacy to stop here.”
And now quotes from Brendan McDonough… in one of his first ( or many ) press interviews BEFORE any reports were released. This one was on August 7, 2013, barely more than 30 days after the tragedy and Brendan is already saying the same thing that the SAIT would eventually say. “There were no bad decisions that day”.
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=122030
All quotes from Brendan McDonough… just a little more than 30 days after the tragedy and more than a MONTH before any official ‘report’ would be released and he was already ‘echoing’ the ‘narrative’ that SAIT report would present…
“It wasn’t just a job, it was a brotherhood”.
I’ll always stand behind my 19 brothers and support them, and I’ll make
it known that there was no bad decision made”.
“No one’s at fault for what happened”.
“I’ll make sure that they’re remembered”.
And Brendan McDonough told Bill Gabbert at Wildfire today about what he WOULD have said even if he had been ‘deposed’ ( which he never was )…
“Nothing crazy or new would have come out of it,” says McDonough. “It would have been more of a reconfirmation of what I saw that day and trying to make sure my brothers were not going to get blamed for something they didn’t do. That was the biggest thing. There have been a lot of fingers pointed … I just wanted to make sure that I was standing up for my brothers. I wanted to make sure I wasn’t letting people tell stories that weren’t true.”
But even then… Bill Gabbert didn’t even ASK and Brendan (again) never bothered to SAY what “stories” he was even referring to.
>> Fire20+ also said…
>>
>> and the investigations are absolutely different.
Not sure about that, really. Even they ( the investigations ) could be very much ‘similar’ in that once an appropriate ‘narrative’ has been decided upon… we will only be fed that ‘narrative’ and the true details will remain a mystery. We shall see.
But they ARE already ‘absolutely different’ in one important way.
TIME.
The (finished) SAIR document was released on September 28, 2013, almost 3 months to the day after the Yarnell incident took place.
It’s already been almost FIVE MONTHS now since the Twisp fatalities took place and there is STILL no set ‘date’ for THAT ‘finished’ report to be released.
>> Fire20+ said…
>>
>> Do you see it could be possible that Daniel isn’t conveying his
>> entire experience until the joint USFS and State report is released?
Sure… that’s possible.
Except you seem to forget that the CR(A)P Initial Summary report that has ALREADY been ‘shoved out the door’ has ALREADY stated that the ‘final’ report will not change in any significant way other than the ‘analysis’ section.
So regarding the DETAILS of what happened… it would seem that John Phipps and his CR(A)P team have already “told the story” there and they don’t intend to elaborate on it.
So in one sense… it IS time for Daniel Lyon to be adding details… if he can.
>> Fire20+ said…
>>
>> The investigation is still on going!
Yes… it is. Almost FIVE MONTHS and counting, with no ‘release date’ in sight.
>> Fire20+ said…
>>
>> Perhaps Daniel has respect for the process and no one is
>> controlling access to him,
Perhaps, yes.
But see above.
*Perhaps* ( like McDonough ) Lyon has no intention of sharing ‘everything he knows’ from much the same motivation(s) as McDonough.
>> Fire20+ said…
>>
>> yet you are making something out of nothing.
I don’t think it’s making ‘something out of nothing’ to simply point out that now that a sole survivor of a tragic incident DOES ( apparently ) ‘remember everything’ and IS ( apparently ) being allowed to talk to the media… that no one is even asking him even basic fundamental questions about “What happened”.
It’s unusual.
If the article had said “Reporters were not allowed to ask certain questions” or “Daniel was not permitted to answer certain questions because of the ongoing investigation”… that would have been different.
The article doesn’t say anything of the sort… so you have to wonder what the REAL situation is.
>> Fire20+ also said…
>>
>> We should all be grateful that some POS report wasn’t puked
>> out in the first few months just to satisfy the masses.
I’m not talking about some POS report.
There are still very BASIC and FUNDAMENTAL questions about what happened that day that remain unanswered.
Like… WHO was driving the Engine that left Woods Canyon Road?
The THREE who died in that Engine were…
Tom Zbyszewski, 20, Richard Wheeler, 31, and Andrew Zajac, 26.
Richard Wheeler remains the most likely candidate for the one who was driving that Engine that afternoon… but there’s been no confirmation on that.
Ditto for WHO it was that even told that Engine Crew to be up there ABOVE a dynamic, uncontained wildfire just risking their lives to protect EMPTY houses.
And… did a TIRE blow out… or NOT?
John Phipp’s CR(A)P report seemed to suggest that was possible.
Well… when do we find out ( and from who, if not Daniel Lyon ) if that really happened, or not?
Followup…
Here’s the ‘blurb’ from the ‘Next Steps’ section of the ALREADY PUBLISHED “Twisp River Initial Summary Report” which states that the narrative ALREADY PUBLISHED isn’t going to change much ( if at all ) even if/when some ‘final report’ comes out…
From PDF page 24 ( of 25 pages )…
——————————————————-
Next Steps
Twisp River Learning Review Phase 3
We are now engaged in Phase 3 of the Twisp River Fire Fatalities and Entrapment Learning Review. The LR team will use the narrative and conditions of influence (derived from interviews, on-scene inspection, review of participants’ background, assessment of work/task loads, fire behavior, information available to crews and leadership, and any other relevant information) to build a thorough understanding of the event from the perspectives of those involved. As described in Phase 3 (above), this becomes the starting point for a thorough examination of the system and how it can be improved.
The information received from each focus group will inform the next in a growing understanding of the actions leading up to the accident and the influences that made those actions make sense to those involved at the time. The focus groups will also explore if the conditions are widespread throughout the organization or if they were unique to Twisp.
The narrative will not be changed by these discussions.
——————————————————-
One more time… for good measure…
“The narrative will NOT BE CHANGED by these discussions”.
So it’s quite possible that namby-pamby ‘narrative’ of what happened on Woods Canyon Road that the CR(A)P team has ALREADY published does, in fact, represent their FINAL narrative.
No more details ( unless someone can get Daniel Lyon to provide some ).
Thanks, I’ve read it and I know all about Brendan. I do understand what you’re saying about the brotherhood thing…Daniel is young and considers his working relationships as a brotherhood. What I was getting at is the honor and goal driven nature differences in them. Huge difference! Let’s all give Daniel a chance, we don’t even know what’s in the entire, complete narrative.
The narrative is the facts and the preliminary report narrative isn’t whole or complete, only highlights. The Frog Fire is under the same circumstance, what was released so far was incomplete. The Line Officers and Agency Administrators beckon for information to be shared because somebody above them is insisting. I have understanding that Phase 3 of the CRP (why go there with calling this new way of looking at wildfire fatalities as CRAP?) process will not change the narrative and it shouldn’t because the narrative contains the facts laid out so we can all understand the content.
Well…I have finally made it full circle with this project. This is just about where I came in when I first contacted John Dougherty so I could tell him some things that I thought were important for the public to understand about wildland firefighter safety. Many of my comments made it into this article;
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/yarnell-hill-fire-the-granite-mountain-hotshots-never-shouldve-been-deployed-mounting-evidence-shows-6656696
This is a verbatim record of some of what I told John when I first talked to him when I nailed it from my dining room in Flagstaff, Arizona.
“If you accept that this horrific catastrophe — unprecedented in the history of hotshots — is because God had a different plan for those 19 men, then you’re not going to go beyond God’s will for causal factors, and that means you’re going to leave the door open for this to happen again,” says Gary Olson, a former superintendent of Arizona’s Happy Jack Hotshots, founder of the Santa Fe Hotshots, and, later, a U.S. Bureau of Land Management criminal investigator.”
I thought the only difference between Darrell Willis and the fundamentalist Muslim fanatical extremists we are fighting was…NOTHING!
And now, RTS has said the very same thing in the following comment;
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-321568
So…I am once again just as dumbfounded as I was when I first learned that almost an entire hotshot crew had been killed in this day and age of enlightenment after decades adding to and refining the very first real attempt to formalize wildland firefighter safety in 1956 with a report to the Chief of the U.S. Forest Service. All because I just found out we have one inside the wire.
Poor old God gets the blame for murdering 19 good fire fighting men? You sure you aren’t talking about Allah here?
Gary and Sonny,
You guys obviously do NOT get it, do you?
God did NOT murder anyone. We have FREE WILL and FREE CHOICE to make either good or bad decisions, and God ALLOWS us to do that.
On June 30, 2013, I allege, the GMHS, under the leadership of Steed and Marsh, made their final, fatal decision(s) which tragically turned out to be the final fatal link in a long chain of bad decisions with prior good outcomes, beginning in 2009, their first official year as a Type I Interagency Hot Shot Crew.
This is somewhat summed up in Kyle Dickman’s book ‘On the Burning Edge’ when former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch ( who only left GM after the Thompson Fire in May 2013, shortly before Yarnell ) on page 54. that ONE of the reasons Brandon Bunch applied for a transfer to another crew prior to the 2013 season is because: “The more seasons Bunch worked for Granite Mountain, the more he felt that under Marsh’s command, the Hotshots were ALWAYS having to PROVE THEMSELVES.”
First off, Dickman was confronted by Joy because he said he had interviewed us. That was a lie. We never met the man and he wrote things that we never said. I put his work in the fiction section since like Donut you never know what is
fact from fiction unless you do your own investigation.
Yes Gary gets it and if you follow his line you will get fact not fiction. Now myself I can not defend since I am not an experienced fire fighter in any form yet consider that I was there the day they died and Joy says 48 minutes before they went down I did not because I knew better–either from long term living outdoors or maybe God gave me sense enough not to.
Oh I forgot to say Dickman told Joy to talk to his lawyer. He said since he did not use our personal names but called us the hikers that it did not count that he made up his own story. Whew what lengths people won’t go to defend their bull shit.
Bingo.
That Bingo was for Gary. But RTS, while I’m here, I respect your belief that it was part of God’s plan that day as Willis said. So, if God’s plan is to let us do whatever (Free Will), then it isn’t really a plan is it? Why even bring God and his “plan” into it? But, being a good Christian, I’m still gonna include you in the virtual internet group hug. THAT is part of God’s plan.
Observer,
Fair enough question. I’ll do my best to answer it, which includes using Biblical references, God’s Word, something that certain people here just loathe.
In Proverbs 3:5-6, we are to “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.”
We are supposed to “surrender our will to God’s will.”
Many times when we say we are seeking God’s will, what we are really wanting to say to God is this: “OK, God, here’s what I’m planning to do. Now I need you to rubber stamp my plan, alright?” This is not really effective in finding God’s true will.
Before God will begin to reveal His will to us, we must be committed to doing whatever it is that He desires for us to do. God will likely be slow to show us His plan if He knows we will likely not do that plan anyway.
He revealed to the GMHS to stay put in their SZ, and I believe He was slow to show them His plan, however, the GMHS, or at least Marsh and Steed, already had their minds made up. Marsh insisting that they come down to the BSR even though Steed told him either “we’re NOT not going to make it” or ” we can’t make it.” And Steed, being the Marine and used to following orders, reluctantly gave in to Marsh’s ‘stupid and clearly unsafe orders” instead, and likely emboldened by the GMHS’ likely SILENCE by some being construed as approval, Groupthink, and The Abilene Paradox of not wanting to ‘rock the boat’ and ‘going along to get along.’
God’s will also tells us to seek godly input. One key component to finding God’s will is to seek the input of godly advisors in our life.
Proverbs 11:14 is a good one: “Where there is no counsel, the people fall; but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.”
So, even though the GMHS, a somewhat inexperienced Crew, had plenty of WFF that did have the experience to know that staying in their SZ was a GOOD idea, they did NOT listen to the counsel of those that likely told them to stay put in their perfectly good SZ.
We are to take a look at your circumstances BEFORE we make our decisions based on God’s will. God often clearly demonstrates His plan for our lives by lining up situations in obvious ways. And He also shows us what His will is NOT for us to do in that same way.
On the YH Fire, the tried and trued ‘WFF Rules’ obviously demonstrated (or should have demonstrated) to the GMHS what was the right thing to do (stay put in their perfectly good SZ) and what NOT to do (leave their perfectly good SZ).
And finally, God’s Word tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5:18 to “Be thankful in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you who belong to Christ Jesus” and in Ephesians 5:20 to “always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
And that is a real tough one for both Christians and non-Christians alike, to give thanks in ALL things, especially in situations like the YH Fire.
Thanks for this, RTS.
I hadn’t weighed in on this because I figured your thinking about it was more subtle and complex than it was originally coming across.
And I figured it was kinda sorta along these lines that you have written.
I’ve also been horrified by Willis’ statement. And how the whole thing has been mythified into “God took our Granite Mountain Hotshots up in to Heaven that day so they could watch out for us from now on.”
I’ve just never been able to think that way about God. The more that people (well-meaning, I’m sure) said to me, “What happened to your brother was God’s Will,” the more I increasingly hated that idea.
I can’t believe in a “God” that intentionally gets people killed and maimed and causes suffering for some “plan,” including Jesus. And that’s what Willis’ statement sounded like, to me.
I don’t know what Willis meant by “God had a different plan for them.” Maybe he meant it more like what you are saying. I don’t know. Maybe you do.
But it can be a really off-putting thing to say, Either from you or from him.
Sometimes things need translating.
Especially in a society in which an increasing chunk of the population have no clue as to what’s even in the Bible, and Christians disagree considerably over what the terms and conditions of Christianity actually include.
Heh. After being a UCC Minster for decades, I started teaching Middle High Sunday School in a Unitarian-Universalist Church. Everything went great until the year in the four-year cycle where we taught The Bible. OMG.
All of a sudden I found myself surrounded by a large group of minds who had no clue about ANY of even the most basic stories and tenets contained in the Bible.
They were the off-spring of parents who had, for good reason, fled some of the worst experiences of what gets done and taught in “the Name of Christ” and the LAST thing they were gonna do was teach their kids about Christianity.
Needless to say, it was an interesting year.
Namaste
Marti,
Thanks for the reply. I have no problem whatsoever discussing religion or defending my faith.
Like I said, both Christians and non-Christians have a really tough time accepting that a loving God would allow such tragic events and tragedies. But He is The Man With The Plan!
Well I don’t think God is a Man. Much less “The Man.”
I think the Universe is intelligent (vastly more than we are) and, ultimately, supportive of us children of the Universe.
And also that the laws of physics not only apply, but rule, in the material realm. We don’t get protected from that by any God-Man-With-A-Plan. So maybe that is somewhat equivalent to “A Plan.”
I agree with you that “God’s Plan” was not in alignment with GMHS’ disregarding every rule in the book, so that what they did was in violation of “God’s Plan.” I can totally agree with you on that, although, personally, I would use different terms to describe it.
But I’m no longer a “Christian,” just a student and follower of Jesus (among others).
Do you think that what Willis said is in alignment with what you are saying?
And what do you think about the, apparent, heavy-duty proselytizing on the GM crew?
Do you agree with that?
Marti,
Yes, I believe I am in alignment with what Willis stated that day at the Fatality Site News Conference, because we have talked about it.
And yes as well to the “apparent, heavy-duty proselytizing on the GM crew.”
I agree with that wholeheartedly. No harm at all in that because the guys on the GMHS Crew itself were the ones doing it on their own.
In other words, it wasn’t being initiated and brought to bear from on high (the Crew supervisors), so there is clearly a difference there, because otherwise the guys might feel intimidated that they MUST follow along because the Boss it doing this. If the Crew supervisors got involved with the rest of them, that’s fine, as long as they didn’t initiate it.
I encouraged our guys to talk about all kinds of things, instead of and other than mindless sports and/or movie stars and/or science fiction and other blather. I encouraged them to talk about things with substance instead of worthless, mindless fluff.
Some of them could spout off literally HUNDREDS of worthless sports statistics, yet complain that it was SO difficult to memorize ‘The WFF Rules.’ OMG, a whole 50-plus live-saving-truisms.
We even had the ‘Word of the Day’ and you had to define it and use it in a sentence related to something we did.
And I was kind of a stickler on ‘The King’s English’ as well, NOT allowing the infernal DOUBLE NEGATIVES, e.g. “I ain’t go none” and :I ain’t never been there” and the like.
“accepting that a loving God would allow such tragic events and tragedies.”
I definitely accept that, “Allow” is a whole different thing than ’cause.”
What Willis said sounded more like ’cause.” Which is why, I think, so many, including me, took suh offense.
What you are saying is “allow.” To that I say, yes.
And, yes, this is really hard to grapple with. Always has been.
Marti,
God also causes thing to happen as well.
“And we know that in all things, God causes all things to work together for the good to those who love” him, “to those who are called according to his purpose.” Romans 8:28
Either way, both allowing and/or causing bad things to happen by a loving God is very difficult to accept and understand, whether one is a Christian or a non-Christian, ESPECIALLY for non-Christians.
Again, regarding this:
“accepting that a loving God would allow such tragic events and tragedies.”
I came to believe, after lots of years of struggle, that the message of “The Gospel” is that the power of love is more powerful than the power of death.
After my brother died, in his horrific death, I had a very strong sense that he was OK.
I am not a “materialist.” I think the laws of physics rule the physical universe. We don’t get a pass on that.
But I do believe in the power of the spiritual. Which is not quantifiable (which is why materialists discount it). And which, I think, is far more complex than even Christianity understands it to be.
I do believe that the spirits of the Granite Mountain Hotshots are, in some way, “keeping watch” over their families and loved ones.
But I don’t believe that that was the “reason” they were killed on the fire (and I now understand that you don’t believe that, either).
And I don’t like that hagiography that has emerged regarding that. A hagiography which, I think, is related to what is going on regarding the Memorial [Shrine].
I should have written:
“I am not a ‘materialist.’ BUT I think the laws of physics rule the physical universe. We don’t get a pass on that.”
Marti,
I understand and yes, I do NOT believe that the “reason” they were killed on the fire was to watch over their families, friends, and loved ones.
Admitting my ignorance here – I had to look up what ‘hagiography’ meant. So, yes to that as well. I do NOT like what is going on with the whole memorial site debacle. It reeks of greed and hypocrisy.
And PS. It has been my discipline for all my adult life to give thanks in the morning for whatever will happen that day. It’s not an after-thought, or a “thank you for the gifts you gave me,” but more of an acceptance, ahead of time, that whatever the day will bring is always something of a gift, and it’s my responsibility to comprehend what the nature of that gift is. Even if I have to wrestle with that “gift” in order to receive it.
I’m not saying that, after a life-time of struggling to do this, I’m 100% good at it. I’m still pretty crappy at it. I do my share of grumping. But it is a part of my world-view and my discipline — i.e. my “religion.” And I do believe it has even kept me alive and still kicking.
My furnace went out yesterday. I’m finally enjoying enough heat (after finally getting it fixed) to actually be able to type. I’ve been shivering all day.
It was not certain that my furnace company was going to be able to get someone out here today to fix it. And a snowstorm is coming in tonight. So I bundled up in blankets and turned the oven on to 350 degrees, and opened it, and sat next to it, all day, and wondered what to do next.
Welp, the repair man managed to show up and repair my furnace. I’m no longer shivering too much to type (for better or worse).
I sighed in relief and said, “Thank you Grandmother.” I have my own reasons for saying that.
And because my discipline has made it possible to approach things like this, I could also say, to myself, OK Lessons Learned — get the furnaces checked out every fall (I had lapsed on this) because it’s better to fix stuff before it becomes a crisis.
And I had a great convo with the repair guy who actually asked me how my daughter was doing, because he had worked on this furnace while she was living here. He even remember she was thinking of going off to graduate school the last time he talked to her. Great guy!
I really do think it takes that spirit of giving thanks to even survive and make the best of life (and we, ourselves) throw at us.
I actually learned that more viscerally from Native Americans than from Christians.
Marti,
I understand that one because I lived on the Navajo Reservation between Fire Seasons for several years.
Sounds like having a good wood-burning stove (NOT a pellet stove) would be in order. They can be a little messy at times, but It would save on your heating bill.
Yes on the woodstoves!
I was seriously wishing for one!
After living with them for ten years,, I have always missed them but never put one in my Quincy house. I guess, other priorities.
But definitely thinking of putting one here in the Monroe House.
I really love having a FIRE to talk to.
Marti,
And soothing as well as fragrant since you have a good access to juniper.
Go for it if you;re able so you can enjoy it this Winter.
Just imagine ….
I doubt that I’ll get there this winter, all things considered.
But, yeah, I think I’ll make it a goal for 2016.
Along with a Kitty Door.
Agree about juniper. Just splitting juniper gave me a charge. And then there’s pinyon. Slower to burn but yum.
And solar panels. The whole front of my current (was “the family”) house is a greenhouse (that my dad built on a solar tax credit during the Carter administration.. Need to bone up on how to “manage” it.
It was strange how that all panned out. We have knowledge that there was a bungled situation where residents were not given ample early warning time to evacuate so now we have firemen being awarded for heroic deeds of getting people out. I can’t believe that awards were dished out so easily..
There was a whole group of volunteer jeep posse people that were knocking on doors because there was no foresight of the Fire God Bosses to give ample time for citizens to evacuate. Where and when were their awards given out. If Cordes got a hand shake and a write up and award then why not the sheriffs jeep posse not also written up and awarded. They after all were risking their own lives because of the errors of the fire gods. And beside that there were plenty of citizens whom risked their lives helping to evacuate neighbors and elderly–no mention there either.
Is this how you make a bad situation look good–make a bunch of heroes out what should have been accomplished earlier with a timely evacuation order. To my way of thinking anytime you act like a hero because you go back and cover things you allowed and did not properly do in the first place, then you have no right to any award. Granted it was a hectic time and by the time we started down the mountain you could barely see the vehicle tail lights ahead of you and Joy’s photos show the embers hitting the windshield of my old vehicle. But awards? Give me some slack, that was a mess and a bungled fire management effort.
In my own opinion there should have been no awards handed out and ADOSH proved that with their fines and investigation even as cursory as it was, and that with much effort to get people to give out true information. Where are the people that ran this fire being chastised so they hang their heads for what went down. Just as one of the fire investigators said to me, they paint the fire fighting effort in a pretty light at the cost of lives in the fire fighting profession. Without addressing the truth ithere is no improvement in fire fighting safety and methods. Firefighters lives will continue to be sacrificed.
Shame on anyone of that fire fighting command to take any kind of award related to the Yarnell Hill Wild Fire. This was a National Tragedy right in our back yard that was totally preventable, yet totally mismanaged.
Sonny,
Yes, I agree with you in part on your “Shame on anyone of that fire fighting command to take any kind of award related to the Yarnell Hill Wild Fire. This was a National Tragedy right in our back yard that was totally preventable, yet totally mismanaged.”
Here’s a link to a story about a Washington state-based satellite company that found that “most of the 569 buildings in Yarnell did not have proper buffer zones — areas sufficiently cleared of chaparral, shrubs and trees.”
So, MORE THAN HALF of the “buildings” (with no reference to what number were homes) did NOT have sufficient Firewise mitigation around them with reduced fuel loading, e.g. cutting and removing the surrounding extremely volatile, scrub oak or Turbinella oak (gasoline on a stick) in a brush choked community that had NOT burned in almost 50 years. That’s significant!
What is remarkable, but not surprising is that “Only 63 buildings had appropriate buffer zones — and 95% of them survived the fire.” That is even more significant than the number of buildings lost.
Pete Morrison, the executive director of the Pacific Biodiversity Institute, the author of the report stated: “What happened there was totally predictable, It was totally normal from an ecological perspective. We need to acknowledge that it was going to happen. It was inevitable.”
Risk Management consultant Gordon Graham has said repeatedly “What’s predictable is preventable.”
Randy Eardley, National Interagency Fire Center talking head stated that residents in fire-prone areas needed to understand that federal, state, and local fire departments cannot post a fire engine at every structure. Eardley said that clearing brush 30 feet away from a structure can make a huge difference.
“It would just be nice if people just recognized that living in those areas comes with some sort of responsibility and doing the things they need to do,” he said.
“There really is an attitude where, if there is a fire, that there is going to be an engine at my house that will help me,” Eardley said.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jul/19/nation/la-na-nn-ff-yarnell-fire-arizona-20130718
And you posted: “Without addressing the truth there is no improvement in fire fighting safety and methods. Firefighters lives will continue to be sacrificed.”
Total agreement on the addressing the truth as a must to firefighting safety and methods.
However, on the WFF lives issue – THEY, the WFF are KILLING and sacrificing themselves by NOT knowing and following the WFF Rules. They are merely victims of their own failures, so the burden is completely on them, and NO one else.
No one held a gun to their heads and told them they had to do what they did, literally or figuratively, NO one made them do it!
Sonny,
And one more thing. There were a ton of fire management f**k ups that day, however, there were some good, competent WFF doing their jobs well. I think Gary Cordes was one of them. Even though he could have done a much better job notifying the IMT members of the GMHS ‘plan’ that day, the one that he knew about.
And there was also the BRHS and the successful actions they took that day both in an around Yarnell and The Shrine areas. even though some here with absolutely NO WF experience blister at the thought of them allegedly sitting on their asses for hours doing nothing.
I agree that the vast majority of the IMT was responsible for blatant mismanagement and the only recognition they should get is what we are doing here and exposing it.
CORRECTION: It should be “BRISTLES at the thought of …”
Then again, he may be getting blisters as well.
Yes RTS, except there seems to be some story writing in the news where Cordes saved one cousin of Bryan Smith, Pearl whom is deceased now. Joy had checked that news paper article and had shown both Pearl and Bryan the photo of Cordes before Pearl died. They both said it was not Cordes that saved Pearl and just yesterday we drove over to Bryan’s house and she went in and he again confirmed that the photo does not match to the person that took Pearl out to the Ranch House. It seems strange that Cordes never contacted the paper and corrected the story and later took a firefighter award of the year from his cohort, Ted Sciaaccia and that award was for his efforts and so call heroism during the Yarnell screw up. We need more facts about this award business since it seems to be going along like the lies we keep getting about the fire.
Now I know news writers like a sensational story but the readers deserve the truth. Cordes if he for sure and I have to believe Bryan Smith, did not save Pearl then he likely knows who was driving the green forest truck that did save Pearl. And what of the other people he was touted to save? We want to know the people and circumstances that would get anyone an award for doing what all of us were doing where we could==that is give rides or help a neighbor get out.
Of course, I am not sure if this man is taking awards under false pretenses or if this is some sort of mix up. You would have thought after reading the paper, which I am sure he did, there would have been a retraction and correction. Give that award to the man who did save Pearl and we know Bryan if he sees a photo will know that person since he had a long ride to the Ranch House with him.
Do they give awards away that easily in the fire fighting world? It is well known that some of the Viet Nam soldiers were getting purple hearts for scratches. Maybe all VietNam soldiers deserve a purple heart and maybe all wild land fire fighters deserve the fighter of the year award. All how you want to address it I suppose.
Yes and a good idea to leave the God thing out. Religion and politics are a dangerous discussion and opinions like assholes everbody has one, some are one.
Sonny,
They rarely ever dole out awards for WFF that I’m aware of. The only ones I’ve ever heard of were for lifesaving accomplishments.
Yes, you would think a retraction would be in order if he was awarded for an event that he was not a part of.
I have no problem defending my faith or discussing it nor religion or politics.
**
** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE
** PUBLIC YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD?
Reply to Sonny post on December 29, 2015 at 8:34 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Does Amanda really represent all the families or just her own purpose
>> for pushing this thing to be a private land deal and memorial off of tax
>> payer money?
Sonny… this is a ‘followup’ to the previous answer to your question and it contains something I meant to mention… but forgot to.
As I detailed in the previous reply… YES… Amanda Marsh’s ‘Position 9’ ( out of 14 positions ) on this Arizona State PUBLIC Yarnell Memorial Site Board was SUPPOSED to be as a ‘representative’ of ALL the ‘relatives’ of the men who lost their lives at the Yarnell Hill Fire…
…but Amanda’s ‘Position 9’ on this PUBLIC Board was not the ONLY one that was being designated for that (same) purpose.
The OTHER position that was actually meant for pretty much the same
purpose was also ‘Position 8’.
That ‘Position 8’ was defined in both the original AND the final ‘versions’ of the Arizona State Legislature House Bill HB2624 as the following…
8. A SURVIVING MEMBER OF THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOT CREW OR A RELATIVE OF A MEMBER OF THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOT CREW WHO LOST HIS LIFE FIGHTING THE YARNELL HILL FIRE, WHO IS APPOINTED BY THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
Notice the ‘OR’ in there.
‘Position 8’ was created to be EITHER a Suvivor of the Crew ( only one option there ) OR a ‘Relative of a member of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew’.
In other words… the exact same ‘definition’ as Amanda Marsh’s ‘Position 9’.
And as with Amanda Marsh… Brendan McDonough was simply ‘appointed’ by (then) Arizona Speaker of the House Andy Tobin to fill ‘Position 8’ on the PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board.
Presumably because he said he WANTED to be on that Board, and he understood WHY.
Not to represent his own personal agenda… but to also be another ‘voice’ for those who knew and loved the Granite Mountain Hotshots and would ‘represent’ THEIR interests.
Brendan McDonough only ever attended the first few meetings of this PUBLIC Board.
He has been listed in the minutes of every meeting since then as simply an ‘absent Board member’.
However… in the September 18, 2015 minutes from that meeting of this PUBLIC Board, Brendan McDonough seems to have now been DROPPED from the Board itself, and he is no longer even showing up listed as an ‘absent Board member’.
In the minutes from the Board’s September 18, 2015… we find this…
—————————————————————————–
C. INTRODUCTION OF BOARD MEMBERS
Role was taken.
Board Members Present
Chairwoman Sue Black; Senator Steve Pierce; Representative Karen Fann; Amanda
Marsh; Jeff Whitney; Lenora Nelson; Chuck Tidey; Chief Ben Palm; Darrell Willis;
Yavapai County Supervisor Rowle Simmons
Board Members Absent
Mayor Marlin Kuykendall; John Flynn;
——————————————————————————
NOTICE that ‘Bredan McDonough’ is now suddenly no longer even being listed as ‘absent’ from the meeting, as he usually has been for all prior meetings he has ‘missed’ ( which is just about all of them ).
There is nothing in the minutes of this PUBLIC Board to indicate that they have simply now ‘given up’ on Brendan McDonough ever fulfilling his responsibilities to this Board, or that he requested he be officially removed from the Board position he volunteered to fill.
There is also nothing in the minutes about now making any attempt to find a REPLACEMENT for McDonough and that ‘Position 8’ on the Board.
Brendan is the only living person who can satisfy the ‘Surviving member of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew’ criteria for this Board position… so if he is no longer willing or able to be that ‘Position 8 Board member’, then his replacement MUST be ANOTHER ‘Relative of a member of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew’, exactly as described for Amanda Marsh and her ‘Position 9’.
So unless this PUBLIC Board is going to just ‘limp along’ without a member on the roster ( as designated by the LAW that created it ) they are SUPPOSED to have…
…then Amanda Marsh will remain the SOLE Board member designated to specifically “Represent ALL the relatives of the Granite Mountain Hotshots’.
It’s also worth noting that at the same time the minutes for this September 18, 2015 meetiing just ‘suddenly’ appeared ( 3 months late and in violation of Arizona Open Meetings laws )… someone also just added the following BLURB to the online page where the agendas and the minutes of this Public Board are required to appear…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
From that PUBLIC page on the Arizona State Parks site…
————————————————————————
Arizona Revised Code § 41-519.01 established the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board.
The primary purpose for the board is to determine whether to establish a memorial
site honoring the 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew that perished
on June 30, 2013 in the Yarnell Hill Fire.
The Park is currently closed to the public while under development.
There are no public roads or trail access available.
The Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board meeting date schedule will be posted when available.
Minutes are posted after each subsequent meeting, after they have been reviewed and approved by the board.
Please contact Monica Enriquez (602) 542-6997 or menriquez(at)azstateparks.gov for further information.
————————————————————————–
Notice this NEW ‘blurb’ added to the page…
“Minutes are posted after each subsequent meeting, after they have been reviewed and approved by the board.”
That is still NOT what the Arizona Open Meetings laws say they are allowed to be doing.
The minutes of any Arizona PUBLIC Board meeting that takes place where a quorum was present are REQUIRED to be published within 72 hours following that PUBLIC meeting… regardless of whether they are DRAFT ( not yet approved by that Board ) minutes, or not.
Once ‘minutes’ are approved at a subsequent meeting… you are allowed to remove the ‘DRAFT minutes’ indicator from the published version… but the law does NOT require OR allow you to ‘withhold’ the minutes until the next meeting.
This Arizona PUBLIC Yarnell Memorial Site Board remains under the (mistaken) impression that they are allowed to be ‘editing’ and ‘approving’ even the DRAFT versions of minutes they publish in order to choose what the PUBLIC should or should not be allowed to see.
The ‘minutes’ from their LAST meeting, held more than TWO MONTHS ago on October 23, 2015, are STILL being ‘withheld’ in direct violation of Arizona Open Meetings law(s).
It is pretty obvious that the Committee has been operating illegally. It would seem all their decisions would be null and void. It seems to me that this whole sham is being run through as a means to elevate reputations under the pretense that these members are doing the right thing for the deceased 17 whom had been sacrificed by deceased Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed for their ignorance and lack of respect for safety rules, for Amanda Marsh, and supposedly all the loved ones that we have never seen polled, and for the heart torn public whom does not at this point know all the facts, and all wild land fire fighters and the generous tax payer willing to add a tax burden and expend tax funds so that a few widows can go there to privately look at the death site and grieve at that horrible site.
Mayor Kuykendahl once told me at Carl’s Junior in Prescott that common sense goes a long way. Now I see why he does not attend the Committee he is a member of and why Willis and the only other wild land fire fighter on the Committee are opposed to making a memorial and the site a private site off taxpayer money for a small special interest group. Common Sense would tell you that the death site is not a grave yard and those men are buried in Prescott where the widows and public people of interest can go mourn their loved ones. A memorial plaque and flag at the site for men that worked for the nation on tax payer money is the only proper thing to do. Add to that honesty and you will put on the memorial at the site exactly why these men died–a tragedy caused by not following the 10 and 18 and for strictly following orders, because some of us have to believe there were men among them that knew better than going down in that basin, yet succumbed to their better instincts of not following the basic rules of staying safe. You might want to add to the memorial plaque that this was a lesson not to mix and risk wild land fire fighters to the hybrid work of both wild land firefighting and structure protection. Pulaski’s and five gallon bladder bags are just about useless against burning houses.
Now I can see that very few of those members have common sense or if they do they are not using it. There has to be other agendas working here for sure. We know that all this money wasted on a million dollar memorial for Amanda’s sake (and a few others?) and we don’t know how much more the tax cost will escalate is fool hardy considering that those funds would do wonderful things if they were instead expended to improve training for future wild land fire fighters, improve and increase badly needed equipment, improve fire fighters wages so they would not be tempted to pad wages as we have seen some of the GMHS people do and even set up better management so screw ups like the Yarnell catastrophe
I am certain even Willis would second that motion and just about every wild land fire fighter I have had the good pleasure to meet would agree to those good uses of tax payer funds.
I have not mentioned the 70 plus people that have passed in the small town (population 645) of Yarnell all since the fire. Half the town was destroyed since two fire departments would not bother to contain a fire that could have easily been stopped on Friday, June 28, 2013. Thirty thousand gallons of that so called inert agent orange like ammon sulfate fire retardant with 8% unkown chemicals added was literally dumped into our back yards at Yarnell. People here complain of lung problems and it would seem that someone in EPA or WHO or FBI would be concerned that 74 deaths since the recent Yarnell Fire is way off the chart. We have instead a Senator and a Representative on the board more interested in a few and a psuedo memorial of high tax payer cost than in addressing real problems that offend locals as well as the future fire fighting community. If you study the LC95 ammonium sulfate problem that has already killed thousands of fish by accidental dumping in rivers, you will find there has been no long term studies of what this crap does to human health. Wild land firefighters will likely find themselves suffering an excess of COPD, lung diseases and other heath problems in their retirement years. As a former Uranium miner I know the things they assure you of now so they make their big bucks dropping the retardant may not be of benefit to your future health. How about some of that tax money you want to expend to make this glorious memorial going toward a study the effects of that orange crap they dump? I know for a fact ammonia gas destroys lung tissue that is irreplaceable, What is that 8% trade secret chemical that goes along with the ammonia gas and what are we breathing when we are doused with what I call Agent Orange #2.
Do right and use common sense in this matter of memorial. An if you are going to put up a million dollar memorial then we have a precedent and now would you neglect the Storm King people of 14 that died and how about Mann Gulch of 13 and on and on. We need to address the hundreds that have died as a National Tragedy, not some private tax payer funded ordeal. Yes 19 deaths is a National Tragedy but let them be listed on a memorial along with hundreds of other wild fighter names across the country. A Viet Nam type wall on the Prescott Court House Lawn makes good sense and a list of every tragedy and names of those heroes and their outfits would be a remarkable tribute to the GMHS and every Wild Land Fire Fighter and smoke Jumper that lost his life in action. The country would like that and it would be a wise investment for the tax payer dollar.
2016-01-03 5:28:52pm
Confirmation from Bryan Smith-
The truck was not Gary Cordes but a forestry green truck with radio communication active within truck and the driver who saved him NOT CORDES was younger and slimmer and had to move things around because that truck was too crowded for him to just get in the truck than they drove from near George DeLange’s/Squirrel Drive towards where he lived and found Pearl Moore collapsed on the asphalt than they were taken to an ambulance at the Ranch House Restaurant where Bryan went back to the driver and thanked him. He confirms the article where Gary Cordes lays claim he saved Pearl does not pertain to them and maybe someone else-
Vivian who was out of town 6-30-13 just had to let me know I put on alot of weight this Holiday so I reckon the lack of hikes are doing me in—need to get out there and walk—
. If you have any other questions for him, he is open to answer any of them and all he saw was this truck and no other ones in that area at that time.
Well the report from Smith again confirms that a forestry truck green in color did the rescue of Pearl. Smith was along and he says the radios were working as well. I have just returned from taking Joy to Smith’s house so this info is
valid.
also for Gary Cordes to allow a media article to lay this claim — and also gain firefighter of the year and all else tied to this— I think that reporter Anne Ryman who we know should go back and show like we did a photo of Cordes and find out WHO REALLY saved Smith then Pearl in a forestry truck— IT MATTERS! Last we heard from Anne was 4-30-15 yet we originally met her at Yavapai College in the evacuation shelter with Eddi Trevino…. [email protected] or put an interest out the world and call her direct at 602-844-8072 or twitter her at @anneryman or follow her on facebook Anne Ryman but let’s get this story correct so WWTKTT does not use media articles as golden information as we have had articles done on us inaccurate so it can happen— and it did here with Anne Ryman not confirming with a photo of Cordes to Smith or even do a special reunion than Smith would of known that was not the man…
it is articles like this THAT DO NOT FACT CHECK that makes things appear what they are not—
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubsectionID=1&ArticleID=131952
this saying was given to me from Holly Neill long ago that is tied to the GMHS and is fitting here:
“Esse quam videri”
To Be, Rather than seem to be
Seems Cordes needs to open up and tell us the people and area he saved lives—we can point out who we saved 6-30-13 and have fact checked that out to make sure what we said was true so why not you Cordes—
http://azwildfireacademy.org/2014-Final-Report.html
This link shows AWIMA Coordinator Tony Sciacca presents Gary Cordes with an engraved pulaski for his Firefighter of the Year Award
My, My what have we here? Two boys that worked the Yarnell Fire debacle awarding and hand shaking each other. Isn’t that chummy. But that is how this political world works. No one wants to admit their skrew up and instead we can cover the truth with awards and congratulations for a job well done but by all evidence was one of the world’s worse fire fighting debacles.
From that online page…
———————————————————-
Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy
2014 Final Report
** Southwest Firefighter of the Year Award – Gary Cordes
Gary Cordes was awarded the 2013 Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year. Gary the training Officer for Central Yavapai Fire District was nominated for demonstrating the characteristics needed to be Firefighter of the Year during the Yarnell Hill Fire, when he selflessly went into a threatened housing area and saved the lives of at least 4 elderly people that could not escape on their own. He definitely demonstrates Leadership, Duty, Respect, Integrity and Community Service in all that he does. Congratulations Gary!
———————————————————-
Followup…
Sonny… I suppose it is POSSIBLE that the reason Gary Cordes’ direct testimony to ADOSH about things he said HE did ( and the rescue he says HE performed ) matches almost EXACTLY what AZCENTRAL reported after their interview with Bryan Smith regarding the rescue of Smith and his 85 year old cousin Pearl Moore…
…is that ( perhaps? maybe? ) there really were TWO almost IDENTICAL rescues going down there in Glen Ilah that afternoon?
If there were not ( TWO almost identical rescues ), then one of the only other possible explanations is that the Arizona Widlfire Academy’s Firefighter of the Year for 2013 ( Gary Cordes ) was LYING to ADOSH.
Here is a ‘side by side’ comparison of the ( supposed ) FACTS being reported by Gary Cordes to ADOSH about one of HIS ( supposed ) ‘rescues’… and the same FACTS being reported from AZCENTRAL’s interview with Bryan Smith.
In order for there to have been TWO almost ‘identical’ rescues out there that day… then they would have to have all of the following ‘details’ in common…
C = Gary Cordes, from his ADOSH testimony
S = Byran Smith, as quoted in the AZCENTRAL article/interview
—————————————————————-
C: Came across a gentleman waving me down in the smoke, told him to get into the vehicle
S: Rounding a corner, he saw a vehicle, flagged it down and got in.
C: He informed me he had a, he had a uh,handicapped uh, disable neighbor, elderly woman who was – he was trying to carry her out and he couldn’t, uh, he was unable to carry her any farther.
S: Pearl Moore grew too tired to continue. Smith had chronic lung disease so he couldn’t carry her. He made the decision to leave her by the road and go for help.
C: I made an attempt to go down that road and uh, he advised me to be careful so I wouldn’t run her over.
S: Smith warned Cordes to be careful so they wouldn’t run her over in the heavy smoke.
C: I picked her up, got her into the vehicle.
S: Cordes picked her up and carried her into the vehicle.
C: Got her over, put her in an ambulance at the uh, back at the Ranch Restaurant.
S: He took them to the Ranch House Restaurant, where they were transported to Prescott and treated for smoke inhalation.
—————————————————————
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 3, 2016 at 5:47 pm
>> Joy said…
>>
>> Confirmation from Bryan Smith-
>> The truck was not Gary Cordes but a forestry green truck
>> with radio communication active within truck and the driver
>> who saved him NOT CORDES was younger and slimmer
>> and had to move things around because that truck was too
>> crowded for him to just get in the truck
Thank you, Joy.
Well… that makes the AZCENTRAL article AND Gary Cordes’ direct testimony to ADOSH a bond-fide ‘mystery’, then.
>> Joy A. Collura said.
>>
>> If you have any other questions for him, he is open to answer any
>> of them and all he saw was this truck and no other ones in that
>> area at that time.
Does he remember ANY more details about this ‘truck’?
Such as… was it just a regular pickup truck ( I would assume it had to have been an extended CAB pickup truck )… or… perhaps… one of those LARGER ‘Diesel’ type trucks with the big SQUARE backs on them?
Remember… as far as we know… ALL of the ‘Blue Ridge’ vehicles that could be called ‘forestry green color’ ( more like aquamarine but who’s counting ) seem to be totally ‘accounted for’ with photographic evidence from the time they left the Shrine Road Youth camp to where they were parked ( and remained ) at the Ranch House Restaurant during this entire timeframe.
I am still willing to believe this ‘rescue’ *might* have been performed with one of the Blue Ridge vehicles that could be construed as ‘matching that color’… but it’s going to take more details to even try to nail that down.
Does Bryan remember if this driver of this ‘truck’ was wearing anything on his head?… Such as… a BLUE Helmet ( or ANY kind of Helmet or ball cap with any kind of LOGO on it? )
This is probably a long shot considering the circumstances… but does he remember seeing ANY kind of LOGOS or WRITING anywhere on the ‘truck’?
wwtktt- can you email me pics of men you think it may be and I will show him the pictures-
I called him at 6:45pm and no answer.
Vivian was watching a loud movie so may of not heard the ringing-
I than wrote it down your questions and I will snail mail it tomorrow being their email is not with me-
The questions are good ones and I did ask him to describe truck and that is how he said it so for more details I will ask direct-
any other questions for him let me know by morning so I can add to the paper-
Glad to see Bob Powers back here.
I can now gather as much detail as needed and post it.
Now, what area is more a focus in question; Shrine area or Sesame area or Helms area?
So I know where to go direct—
Remember in about a week when I feel a freedom to share I will be trying to unload in a timely space versus dumping all I learned in 2015—thanks to the Wildland and Structural Firefighters we met at casino part after they were at the 2015 Wildland Convention. Without those men we would not know much and soon I will feel more free to speak than I have been—
Gary, question to you…what is an area you feel we need to speak more about on the YHF…I keep feeling you are holding back on publicly speaking on a topic and I have no clue why but I feel it…in your folks you know can you find out how I can get FOIA on the evaluations of these men because my gut says something lays in those documents…The mayor’s office said 5/27/15 to run requests to Prescott City Clerk Dana DeLong for instructions 928-777-1272 or [email protected] because there was information in a book out this year on YHF that the city of Prescott is based on bureaucracies in regards to GMHS and we would like to get the information out for the loved ones vs books that are out and articles that are out THAT ARE NOT FACT CHECKED yet published— so we have been trying different areas to get the information of the financial gain the city received for having the GMHS and how the funds were shared among-st who and where—Patti Crouse has been extremely helpful as well as ADOSH and Cathy David of YCSO –thank you to KAM Alliance Private Investigators for their ability to assist if we give ya a call— thank you to Sara Sullivan of fs/fed/us. Carrie Dennett is owed a great deal from all of us who really had her working hard a good while at azsf.gov—HUGE thank you to the loved ones of Willis that we learned a great deal about him and Karen and other loved ones of GMHS-
very special thank you to Eddi Trevino for all her efforts in the YHF in the start before she changed careers-
Look forward to people pre-ordering that Santos, Fernanda us.macmillan the fire line book
HUGE thank you during a low time for me for http://www.cblawyers.com/attorneys/james-belanger/ for even making time to explain things to me…when I was flustered…clouded and for wishing me good luck…no promises you said but you really made me feel confident in decisions I had to make this year and if I had loads of funds I would gift it to James Belanger for what he did for my well being—as well to Marti Reed and her efforts because of her I did important tests to refocus an area in my health and had I not had such support I would not have known and may not be here today—
“How is your Situational Awareness? Similar terrain, extreme fire behavior…”
How many lives? How many years? before we see change…
Just stumbled upon this.
“Lawyer: Twisp River Fire most likely caused by powerline failure
by ADMIN on Nov 30, 2015 • 4:31 pm No Comments
By Marcy Stamper
http://methowvalleynews.com/2015/11/30/lawyer-twisp-river-fire-most-likely-caused-by-powerline-failure/
“The status report on the Twisp River Fire fatalities indicates a point of origin on a map, but does not discuss any cause of the fire. But sources close to the investigation are fairly confident that the fire was caused by a powerline failure, according to attorney Rodney Nelson.
Nelson, a partner with the Yakima law firm of Abeyta Nelson who specializes in helping people recover wildland fire losses not covered by insurance, said he has been told by sources in the field that “it’s a powerline case.””
——————————
“The powerlines on that part of Twisp River Road, about 6 miles west of town, are part of the network operated by the Okanogan County Electric Co-operative. David Gottula, general manager of the co-op, said earlier this month that the utility did its own investigation and provided the information to the U.S. Forest Service for their investigation.”
FWIW Dept.
Another Twisp link I just found that I hadn’t come across yet:
A combustible combination of climate change and bad
luckhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/national/-a-combustible-combination-of-climate-change-and-bad-luck/2015/11/10/9afce5f4-7ca2-11e5-b575-d8dcfedb4ea1_story.html
The video’s worth watching.
Oops I botched the link.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/-a-combustible-combination-of-climate-change-and-bad-luck/2015/11/10/9afce5f4-7ca2-11e5-b575-d8dcfedb4ea1_story.html
The power pole ( and lines still ‘in the air’ ) that appear in that photograph at the very TOP of the CR(A)P ‘Initial Status Report’ for the Twisp fire are definitely ‘owned and operated’ by the Okanogan County Electric Co-operative ( OCEC ).
You can easily trace those power lines with ‘Google Maps’ going EAST on Twisp River Road, and then turning NORTH around the Elbow Coulee road and tying into another OCEC grid farther to the North near Winthrop.
.But… ( interestingly enough )… that HOUSE right there by that pole where the Twisp fire started is owned by ANOTHER ‘Electric Company’.
The Douglas County Electric Co0operative. ( DCEC ).
The DCED purchased that house there off Twisp River Road in 2010 and they added it to their ‘Salmon spawning facility’ which is right there directly across the road from it on the SOUTH side of Twisp River Road.
WTKTT said, “No one here is irreplaceable” or something like that?
And I say, “I strongly disagree with that assessment.” I think EVERYONE here is irreplaceable because there are so few people participating on this thread in the first place and we never know from whom or in what form a critical piece of information or analysis will emerge.
I certainly feel that Bob Powers is irreplaceable because of his extensive and variety of wildland firefighting experience. My experience was limited to being a hotshot in the old days when even being a grunt was different and fighting fire from an office setting. In addition, I lack the emotional stability when it comes to what happened to the GMIHC to provide a balanced, objective and professional analysis of the facts.
Bob was the rock representing the interests of all wildland firefighters here on what is the only forum where this historic event is being actively researched and debated. Therefore, I am making a public plea to Bob to return to the IM thread because we all owe it to the young people who are on the fire line today and who will be on the fire line during all of the tomorrows to come to get this right.
Your country needs you Mr. Bob Powers! Please report for duty!
Do I hear a second?
I second.
I third
You bet. We need Bob and plenty more like him to keep the ball rolling.
So, who is this “observer” that just popped in, your might ask? I have been a long time (2 year or so) reader of this site. I have admired the dedication of so many here. I have also been really irritated at times with some of the goings on. But you all are doing good work and I think that you all have good intentions, even if it gets a little sideways at times. So carry on, and let’s hope that Bob comes back.
Thank you so much for your observations…observer. And they say if one of the silent majority weighs in in writing, it counts for at least one thousand who don’t. So…Bob?
I am Silently reading and here. we need input from the last of those that know
something that were on Yarnell. I will wait and see.
Observer — Ill be with you for a while.
I second second second or whatever.
I think we need all of us. At least to continue in any meaningful way.
I keep asking about what is the fear behind the anger here. And nobody has responded. Crickets. What are we afraid of that we lash out in so much anger? I really don’t think we are going to be able to comprehend and, thus, mitigate, the anger that has split us apart, since Christmas (ironic?) until we, individually and collectively, are willing to self-reflect on our fear.
So I’ll go first. To be perfectly honest, and after having pondered on this during this whole spat, MY BIGGEST FEAR is that the work I and we have done over this past two plus fricken years is IN VAIN. I fear there is no place it is going. And I think it’s a justifiable fear. It’s a constant companion to me every day. Why should I keep doing this for, apparently, NOTHING???? When I, actually, REALLY need to be doing a whole bunch of other things?
Does anybody else feel this way? If not, what are you afraid of that is causing you to lash out at others in your interactions here?
As I have said, I mostly haven’t felt all that much anger towards others here, and the blow-up since Christmas has really mystified me.
But, maybe, on the other hand, this two plus year old campfire has outlived its usefulness. Maybe it can’t do what we need it to do anymore. Maybe it hasn’t been able to actually do that for a long time. And maybe that has caused a build-up in frustration that finally went BOOM.
I hate doing META. But sometimes it is necessary. I’d much rather do content.
I think we’re at a place that we can’t continue to put a bandaid on.
I have really loved, learned from, and been challenged in strong ways from, being engaged with all of you over these two plus years. Thank you, all of you, for that.
I truly don’t know where we go from here. That’s a source of both fear and anger for me.
Namaste.
Marti,
I appreciate your frustration and fear that things may be at a dead end. But I urge you and others to remember that there is a reason that law enforcement continues to work “cold cases” and solve crimes years after they were committed. Not that I’m saying a crime, necessarily, was committed in the YHF. Just that dogged determination can reveal the truth. And, many of those cases are solved when a witness or piece of evidence is uprooted. If you and so many others here, including JD, hadn’t pursued this endeavor, we would have been left with the SAIT and gone on our way believing no one did anything wrong and it was just bad luck, changing weather and/or “God’s plan.” (I would personally like to figuratively punch Willis in the mouth for that little tidbit.)
I think the reason for the frustration, manifesting itself as anger, is because you all feel like you are at at point that, unless you can get information that you believe is out there but being kept from you, the case has stalled.
Here is my meta–I believe the truth always comes out in the end. It may be a long time. The delay may cause others harm. But it always comes out AS LONG as the TRUTH is PURSUED!
Now, it may be that Marsh and Steed just made the FUBAR of all FUBAR’s. Maybe their mistake was because of something that other’s implored them to do. Maybe the Blue Ridge fellows are afraid to speak out or the fraternity of WFF’s keeps them from calling out one of their own (see: Military brotherhood). Maybe there is more. Maybe it wasn’t God’s will (#)&’ing Willis) , but the will of man. I don’t know, but I do know this. We know much more than we did on Jan 3, 2016 than we did on Jan 3, 2014. Thank you for that and don’t give up.
BTW: I saw the recent blow up coming from a mile away. When this many invested folks who really care about the firefighters and want to prevent another YHF hit a dead end and are as strong willed as the contributor’s here are, there is going to be blow up eventually. But, I would bet a significant amount of money that if you all got together in a bar there would be hugs all around. I’d buy you all a round, including a purple wine for Sonny! .
Observer,
I’m going to take issue with you on a couple things you posted, one a figurative threat to PFD Wildland Battalion Chief Willis. I have been one of the first to criticize Willis and his actions leading up to June 30, 2013 and statements he made at the July 2013 News Conference, trying to defend the actions of the GMHS. However, I completely agree with him on what he said about the GMHS fatalities being part of God’s plan.
I am NOT challenging your beliefs, just your statements in response to what Willis said.
One of the statements he made has been quite controversial indeed, both to Christians and non-Christians alike, when he said: “You can call it an accident. I just say GOD HAD A DIFFERENT PLAN FOR THAT CREW AT THIS TIME.” That’s what he said and I wholeheartedly agree with that statement, i.e. “that little tidbit.” And it was most definitely NOT an accident.
Giving kudos to the IM contributors, and where those that are curious about why the GMHS fatalities occurred, and where the curious would be without the IM contributors, you posted: “… we would have been left with the SAIT and gone on our way believing no one did anything wrong and it was just bad luck, changing weather and/or “GOD’S PLAN.” (I WOULD PERSONALLY LIKE TO FIGURATIVELY PUNCH WILLIS IN THE MOUTH FOR THAT LITTLE TIDBIT.)”
First off, I have met very few people who believe that it’s IMPOSSIBLE to do everything right and kill 19 firefighters. Only the sheeple believe that in that bureaucratic drivel in the alleged “FACTUAL and Management Report.”
Please add me to your list of those you want to “figuratively punch … in the mouth.”
You also posted: “Maybe there is more. Maybe it wasn’t God’s will (#)&’ing Willis) , but the will of man.”
Also, please add me to your cursing list as well – (#)&’ing Robert the Second).
I believe that everything that occurs everyday is God’s will, including what occurred on June 30, 2013. As human beings, we have FREE WILL. God gives us choices and the GMHS made some very BAD CHOICES that day. It was NO accident and it was NOT bad luck.
Please count me out on the group hugs. Happy New Year.
True Marti, Anger is generally not good for the soul, mind and body yet we humans are subject to it as were the Gods of old. Maybe we inherited it or the Gods inculcated it into our Psyche. Fortunately it is generally fleeting and we don’t bear grudge but do forge ahead with a common goal of getting at the truth of this tragedy and all related tragedies that are avoidable. I sometimes have that Irish temper and try my best to hold it in check and indeed there must be plenty of us that are not at all happy with the way this Yarnell tragedy and its subsequent investigation were handled.
I am reminded that old Jesus got pissed in a temple and took a whip to the money changers hanging around and acting like so many religious do-gooders but to their own agenda and profit base. We have plenty modern day equivalents. I noted that the Presbyterian control of monies donated to the cause of Yarnell by so many good citizens forgot to help the local bar yet distributed to others including businesses here that had lost because of the shut down and martial law closing of Yarnell. Hundreds of thousands were available, but no need now to help Barbara since the local pub is now closed due to her stroke and now she is totally hospitalized and incapable of reopening the business. She was 40 years a resident and business owner and still forgotten by those people that had all that donated cash. Yet Joy did not forget her and fostered a party there. Joy ran adds in the Wickenburg Sun news and local Yellow Sheet news that are quite strange. It cost me a $100 or so but then I went along. The ads were on the line of who is the lucky lady to be Sonny”s seventh wife. Come meet her at the Yarnell Pub and enjoy the wedding reception, live music and free meal but buy your own drinks, bring cash since there is no credit system at the bar. Lots of speculation as to who my seventh wife might be and a lot thought it was Joy, yet she has a husband so she would have been a Nomron, that is Mormon spelled backwards since she would have multiple husbands instead of wives. She has written on the back window of my 73 Chevy pickup “The Old Married Couple”–He’s old, She’s married.
So as it turned out the ordeal helped Barbara, bless her heart and as far as the seventh wife, about the only seven was a bottle of Jack Daniels Number 7 setting in front of me at the bar that night. I might have made a good Mormon except I like my wives in order not all at once.
So about the anger issue–not really what people think with fear behind it and in the Yarnell case you could say rational thinking is often behind the anger at how this fiasco was handled. Fear is not always behind anger, and in todays world and in this situation of the Yarnell incident you can see that too many people are too fearful to get angry.
I say we certainly do not want to be angry with our little mistakes and misunderstandings among ourselves–keep the common goal above that. I happen to enjoy a bit of the debating here–keeps my mind moving enough I don’t become a dead pan. Too many flat liners out there that won’t come join in the fray. Now that is fear in its ugliest form.
Reply to Sonny post on January 2, 2016 at 2:47 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Once again excellent discovery work by WTKTT.
>> There was one blue ridge guy that picked up Pearl, elderly lady that was
>> wandering through the smoke. It was happenstance and I think
>> he was going to check on the dozer operator at the time.
Sonny… are you talking about Pearl Moore, the 85 year old cousin of Bryan Smith ( 63 years old )?
That ‘rescue’ has never been ‘attributed’ to anyone who worked for the organization known as the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’.
That ‘rescue’ is the one for which Gary Cordes received the 2013 “Firefighter of the Year” award.
That ‘rescue’ of Pearl Moore was originally reported here…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Mystery man rescued residents during Yarnell Hill Fire
Published: 10:44 a.m. MST March 31, 2014, by Anne Ryman
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/2014/03/31/yarnell-hill-fire-mystery-man-rescued-residents/7101035/
From the article…
————————————————————–
Bryan Smith, 63, had no car that Sunday afternoon because his wife had taken it for a trip. So he and his 85-year-old cousin, Pearl Moore, walked out when the fire hit. Embers fell on their arms and hair. Trees caught fire on the sides of the road. They heard car tires exploding from the heat.
Moore grew too tired to continue. Smith had chronic lung disease so he couldn’t carry her. He made the decision to leave her by the road and go for help. Rounding a corner, he saw a vehicle, flagged it down and got in.
Firefighter Gary Cordes was at the wheel, but there was no time for introductions.
“Thank you, Jesus,” Smith remembered thinking.
The two rushed to find Smith’s cousin. Smith warned Cordes to be careful so they wouldn’t run her over in the heavy smoke.
When they found Moore, Cordes picked her up and carried her into the vehicle. He took them to the Ranch House Restaurant, where they were transported to Prescott and treated for smoke inhalation.
Cordes didn’t go back into Glen Ilah. He assumed there were fatalities among residents. It would be days before law enforcement could confirm that all of the residents got out safely.
During his interview months later with investigators, Cordes still found it difficult to continue talking about the rescue. He took a moment to collect himself.
“We thought we had a, a fair amount of fatalities in there, which, obviously, I felt was my responsibility. So that’s why it became an emotional issue for me,” he said.
————————————————————–
The details of this ‘rescue’ of Pearl Moore and this AZCENTRAL reporting has always ‘matched’ pretty much exactly what Gary Cordes himself testified to in his one-and-only ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013…
Q = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator
A = Gary Cordes, SPGS1 at the Yarnell Fire
————————————————————–
1652 …decided to make one more run
1653 into the Manzanita area up in there uh, which by now most of the structures
1654 were burning fairly aggressively in there. Um, just trying to make sure every
1655 effort was made to recover anybody. Came across a gentleman waving me
1656 down in the smoke, uh, told him to get into the vehicle, he said he could not
1657 leave the area. By this time I’m getting a little annoyed because of the, the uh,
1658 the responses of why they can’t leave. He informed me he had a, he had a uh,
1659 handicapped uh, disable neighbor, elderly 1659 woman who was – he was trying to
1660 carry her out and he couldn’t, uh, he was unable to carry her any farther.
1661
1662 Q: You need to take a minute?
1663
1664 A: Uh, just, yeah, if I can take a second.
1665
1666 Q: No problem.
1667
1668 A: It was obviously fairly emotional, during all of this. Um, at this time I asked
1669 him where she was, he pointed uh, on a road that was fairly unattainable, all of
1670 the structures on the north side were on fire. So I made an attempt to go down
1671 that road and uh, he advised me to be careful so I wouldn’t run her over. She
1672 was in the road, and she was. I picked her up, got her into the vehicle and,
1673 and uh, uh, unfortunately he op- he opened the other side of my vehicle that
1674 was full of burning embers, and I probably yelled something unkind to him,
1675 but got the vehicle shut up and, and uh, got out of there. So uh, we thought she
1676 was burned, he had some blisters to his face, um, got, got her over, put her in
1677 an ambulance at the uh, back at the Ranch Restaurant. That was the last uh, I
1678 didn’t go any farther back in after that. We assumed we had fatalities.
————————————————————–
Joy tells me Gary Cordes was not the one that saved Pearl. Joy got this information from Pearl and Bryan and Joy confirmed this by showing Pearl and Bryan a photo of Gary and they both said no that was not the man, he was Joy:s age, much younger that Cordes. Joy could not see how he went along with misinformation in the media and accepted fire fighter award of the year. Personally I can’t see how anyone that had anything to do with the Yarnell fire fighting screw up would take any kind of award.
I should add we believe the person that rescued Pearl was a Blue Ridge fellow, but we have not confirmed that yet., Maybe that person will come forward or someone whom knew who rescued Pearl. She would like to publicly thank that person.
Reply to Sonny post on January 2, 2016 at 7:06 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> I should add we believe the person that rescued Pearl
>> was a Blue Ridge fellow, but we have not confirmed
>> that yet., Maybe that person will come forward or
>> someone whom knew who rescued Pearl. She would like
>> to publicly thank that person.
Thank you, Sonny.
Let us know if you find out anything else.
Yes… whoever actually did perform that particular rescue deserves the credit for it.
If it turns out it was NOT Gary Cordes… it will still remain very strange that Gary Cordes’ account to ADOSH of what HE did matches almost exactly what Bryan Smith told AZCENTRAL… right down to the detail of Smith telling Cordes to ‘drive carefully’ so he wouldn’t run Pearl Moore over.
As for it being someone employed by the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshot’ organization… I suppose that is possible but I’d still say ( based on the evidence record we have so far ) that it was ‘not likely’.
All of the Blue Ridge regular vehicles are ‘accounted for’ from the time they left the Shrine Road Youth Camp until they arrived at the Ranch House Restaurant and remained there for the next few hours, while the fire burned through Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
That only leaves the possibility of either Cory Ball ( who was driving around on a 1-seater ATV, or ( perhaps ) Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown who are known to have entered Glen Ilah AFTER the burnover in the 2 seat Polaris Ranger just with a carry bed over the rear axles.( full of medical equipment, at that point ).
It would have been difficult to effect the rescue described in either a single-seat ATV or with the BR Polaris Ranger already loaded with equipment.
There is (also) still no mention in any Blue Ridge unit log of anyone involved with that organization either attempting, or assisting with, any actual ‘citizen rescues’ that afternoon.
Bryan Smith is in his 60’s and I believe Peal Moore is 84. I think they would have recognized Cordes if he were the one. I don’t know if the ones you mentioned were younger since they said the rescuer was younger and the photo Joy had of Cordes did not match up to who they saw that day.
Reply to Sonny post on January 2, 2016 at 8:32 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Bryan Smith is in his 60’s
Yes. AZCENTRAL article ( see above ) said he was 63 and suffering from chronic lung disease..
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> and I believe Peal Moore is 84.
The AZCENTRAL article I pointed to above says she was 85.
Both of those ages would, of course, have been what AZCENTRAL elected to report them at on March 31, 2014, when their article was first published.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> I think they would have recognized Cordes if he were the one.
Me too. Hard to forget what the ‘face’ of someone who is rescuing you looks like, especially when you end up riding in their vehicle with them as the article above described.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> I don’t know if the ones you mentioned were younger
>> since they said the rescuer was younger
Yes. If it happened to be Cory Ball ( on his single-seat ATV ) or Brian Frisby or Trueheart Brown ( in their 2-seat UTV Polaris Ranger. )… all three of those men would be YOUNGER than Gary Cordes.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> and the photo Joy had of Cordes did not match up to
>> who they saw that day.
Yes. I understand.
So we’re back to it being a ‘mystery’ who that might have been effecting that rescue… and then the deeper mystery ( if it wasn’t Cordes ) of WHY Cordes’ ADSOH testimony matches almost EXACTLY the details of the ‘rescue’ that Bryan Smith gave to AZCENTRAL.
Let me just add that at the same time I agree with you that they certainly SHOULD have recognized Gary Cordes in whatever photo you showed them… I would, likewise, also expect them to fully remember if they had to ‘ride out of there’ on a single-seat ATV ( Cory Ball ) or an equipment-packed 2-seat Polaris Ranger UTV ( Frisby and Brown )… if that’s how it went down.
Whoever that was rescuing them over there on Deer Track Lane… with the fire burning all around them… I’d say it remains pretty much a given it had to have been someone in a regular enclosed vehicle with a passenger compartment.
Let us know if you find out anything more about all this.
Joy knows the both of them WTKTT. This is a mystery for sure–too bad if the media does not check this account out with Bryan. Joy just told me Pearl has since deceased so Bryan is the only one now to verify information. So many of our elders have died since the fire.
People do strange things. I had a neighbor in Phoenix, Oregon that used to do pow wows with his teepee. He was supposed to be Indian and claimed so many things about the tribe he would pow with. I remember reading all the good stuff about his Indian heritage and all the good things he was connected with on the Reservation. Next thing I know the tribe contacted the news paper and this man and the reporter were having to retract everything he had fed the newspaper. Some Indians were angry and it was found that he was actually a white man trying to play Indian. It had to be an embarrassing moment to be exposed for his BS. I did read the retraction and I wondered if he was ever accepted back to the pow wows.
So when do we start receiving awards for taking people out of a fire zone? Joy and I took out a hysterical Penny, seven dogs and cats and her birds in my old station wagon. She was elderly and had no transportation to get out. Isn’t this something people just do anyway without a big write up and award. Shit if you did not help a neighbor or a person that needed a ride then what kind of person would you be. No one deserves to be rewarded for something like that. Whoever did it did not risk their life to give a ride no more than Joy and I did for Penny. But I suppose it looks good on your resume if you are looking for a promotion and want to be touted as a hero for giving an elder a ride.
Sonny…
If you ever run into Bryan Smith again I would suggest just asking him if he remembers any details about the VEHICLE that this person he ‘flagged down’ was driving.
We know pretty much for sure now, thanks to Joy obtaining that Anna Marie Lechner photo, that Gary Cordes was driving that big 4-door extended cab red and white Central Yavapai command vehicle with the camper top and the flat light bar on top.
But I wouldn’t ask Bryan if he specifically saw THAT vehicle.
Just let HIM try and recall what that VEHICLE looked like without any prompting.
Right on that WTKTT. Thanks for the advice on how to do that. Maybe Joy can bring other photos as well. She is working on her Dad’s death now–five other relatives had died in their sleep under her Grandma’s care. Well detectives told Joy that death in the sleep mode is a common thing and likely just concidences but Joy wants an autopsy against every one elses wishes. You see how from this that people want the truth when it comes down to the death of a family member.
WTKTT,
I am sure I am posting in the wrong place but I want to get this out before I get the blue screen of death on my computer.
I have been thinking about the lack of assignment for BRIHC, trying to look at it from the OPS perspective (that’s the position I held the last 8 years before retirement). In my mind if the priority was to establish an anchor point and flank (bread and butter of firefighting) why weren’t they assigned to augment the efforts of GM? Two shot crews can certainly punch more line than one. However if OPS already knew that plan was no longer viable why didn’t they pull GM off and re-evaluate.
Hot Shot crews are a highly regarded, valuable resource so it’s rare to have them “sitting”. I have held shot crews twice in my career, both times because the fire was going to shit and our plan was no longer viable. But, as soon as a new plan was established they were put to work.
So, I am frustrated that BR was not utilized earlier on this incident, but for me it was a failure (once again) on the IMT to organize and manage there resources.
Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 2, 2016 at 10:54 pm
>> Norb Szczurek said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> I have been thinking about the lack of assignment for BRIHC, trying
>> to look at it from the OPS perspective (that’s the position I held
>> the last 8 years before retirement).
As I stated somewhere down below recently… I ( personally ) don’t care if some people reading or posting here think discussing Blue Ridge’s involvement and participation in the Yarnell Hill Fire is some kind of ‘third rail’ that isn’t supposed to be touched.
There are still things that need to be talked about with regards to Blue Ridge and what they were ( or weren’t ) doing that day… and WHY they were ( or weren’t doing it ).
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> In my mind if the priority was to establish an anchor point and flank
>> (bread and butter of firefighting) why weren’t they assigned to
>> augment the efforts of GM?
They WERE, Norb.
Field OPS1 Todd Abel said that WHILE the 9:00 AM ICP briefing was just starting up at the Model Creek ICP… he ‘button holed’ them in the parking lot of the Model Creek School and did TWO things.
1. He ASSIGNED THEM to DIVSA Eric Marsh ( and the project he was already working on with Granite Mountain ).
2. He told them to go ‘stage’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire Station until it became more clear what they were actually supposed to be doing.
That’s why Blue Ridge ‘missed’ that important 9:00 AM briefing up at the ICP.
Todd Abel sent them down to ‘stage’ at the Yarnell Fire Station at the exact same time that important briefing was just getting started.
From Field OPS1 Todd Abel’s one-and-only ADOSH interview on August 22, 2013…
Q1 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH / WFA investigator ( Rest In Peace )
A = Todd Abel, Field OPS1 at the Yarnell Hill Fire
————————————————————————–
872 Q1: I hope you’re, uh – don’t mind us laboring through (unintelligible). Okay. So
873 then we say that, um, you staged Blue Ridge.
874
875 A: Mm-hm.
876
877 Q1: At the station and then assigned Blue Ridge to Eric.
878
879 A: Yes.
————————————————————————–
Just a few moments later, in the same interview, Field OPS1 Todd Abel then says that AFTER the ICP briefing… he ‘ran into’ Blue Ridge down there at the YFD station, exactly where he told them to go ( and what caused them to miss the briefing itself )… but now Todd Abel himself is saying that HE ( OPS1 ) just wanted to ‘stage’ them there and keep them in HIS (quote) “back pocket”…
————————————————————————–
894 A: So we went down there, uh, after the briefing ran into, um, Blue Ridge out
895 there, um, and they said hey, what would you like us to do? I said hey, why
896 don’t you guys go stage at the school. I’m not sure exactly where I wanna put
897 you guys yet. But I wanted that hotshot crew in my back pocket.
898
899 Q1: Right.
900
901 A: So we staged them there.
———————————————————————————
So yea… this all remains VERY confusing as far as what Blue Ridge was being told when they first arrived at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Their own Unit Logs confirm the ‘confusion’.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> Two shot crews can certainly punch more line than one.
You damn betcha.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> However if OPS already knew that plan was no longer viable
>> why didn’t they pull GM off and re-evaluate.
We still have no idea when ( or even IF ) any OPS ( Field OPS1 Todd Abel or Planning OPS2 Paul Musser ) realized that this ‘push dozer line and maybe burn it out in the evening’ plan from that morning became a useless exercise.
The crux of the ADOSH citations, however, cited this very thing.
The crews out there working on ALL of those ‘dozer lines’ should have been pulled off their assignments well before they ever actually had to ‘self-evacuate’.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> Hot Shot crews are a highly regarded, valuable resource so
>> it’s rare to have them “sitting”.
There isn’t even any real evidence that anyone in fire command ( OPS1 Abel or DIVSA Eric Marsh ) ever even ASKED the entire crew to relocate from the Yarnell Fire Station all the way out there to the Sesame Clearing area.
The ONLY thing that is indicated is that yes… SPGS1 Gary Cordes was tired of ‘baby sitting’ the dozer out there by about 10:00 AM and he asked for someone to relieve him ‘out there’… and OPS1 Todd Abel then requested Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball to go all the way out there and ‘relieve’ Gary Cordes as HEQB/DOZB so Cordes could get back to Yarnell and run ‘Structure Protection’ stuff like he’d been hired to do the night before.
Somewhere in the 10:00 AM timeframe, then, when this call to get Cory Ball ‘out there’ came from OPS1 Todd Abel… we suddenly find the entire Blue Ridge Hotshot Crew ‘saddling up’ and leaving the Yarnell Hill Fire Station where they were told to stage until they had an ‘assignment’.
So they all left the YFD and schlepped all the way out to the Sesame Clearing area to the same place where the Granite Mountain buggies were parked.
And that’s where they ( the Blue Ridge Crew ) sat on their asses for the next FOUR AND 1/2 HOURS with absolutely nothing to do but watch the helicopters and the VLATS almost crashing into each other and take pictures/videos.
Even pilots Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark said they could ‘see’ them just sitting down there and wondered themselves why they were doing nothing at all. It factored into their own decision to start laying retardant line across that middle bowl. They said ( in their interview ) that Blue Ridge needed to either “engage the fire or get out of there”… and when they realized they were doing neither… they said they realized “someone had to do something to try and protect Yarnell because the fire was GOING to be going in there that day… THAT burn cycle”.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> I have held shot crews twice in my career, both times because
>> the fire was going to shit and our plan was no longer viable.
>> But, as soon as a new plan was established they were put to work.
Well… late in the afternoon… a ‘new plan’ was established ( by SPGS1 Gary Cordes ) and even though Blue Ridge had ( according to OPS1 Todd Abel ) been assigned to DIVSA Eric Marsh… Blue Ridge now found itself suddenly ‘taking orders’ from the Structure Protection guy in Yarnell.
Cordes told Ball and the Dozer to start improving that ‘Cutover Trail’ from the Sesame Clearing over towards the Shrine Youth Camp… and that when the dozer was finished the Blue Ridge guys should ‘improve that dozer push’.
So that was the ‘new plan’ and the Blue Ridge crew finally got their FIRST work assignment for the entire day… after having just sat on their asses for almost SIX HOURS, at that point.
They only actually got to put in a few minutes of real work ( and only 1 tank of saw gas, according to one of the BR sawyers ) on that assignment before they got the RTO order and the ‘bumpout WITH URGENCY’ order from Frisby and Brown.
>> Norb Szczurek also said…
>>
>> So, I am frustrated that BR was not utilized earlier on this incident,
>> but for me it was a failure (once again) on the IMT to organize
>> and manage there resources.
It remains an absolute conundrum WHY, if that ‘anchor point’ assignment up there on that rough ridge was so all-fired important… WHY Blue Ridge wasn’t up there ‘helping’ the other Type 1 Hotshot crew “get ‘er dun”.
Especially since….
1. They had no other assignment and sat on their asses within hiking distance for FOUR and 1/2 HOURS.
2. In the end… Granite Mountain wasn’t even able to FINISH that ( all fired important? ) assignment even after working on it alone for SIX HOURS.
We also still have no complete idea what BR Supt. Brian Frisby and DIVSA Eric Marsh really talked about for a full half-hour during their face-to-face up on the high west ridge from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM.
There is no record if they even TALKED about Blue Ridge coming up there to help them even though they had no assignment at all and were just sitting on their asses by their Carriers down there by the Granite Mountain Crew Carriers.
Could it be that Brian Frisby even OFFERED to bring them up there to help Granite Mountain finish that assigment in a timely fashion and get the hell off that ridge and back down to their Carriers ( and other assignments )…
…but DIVSA Marsh and/or GMIHCS Steed REFUSED their help?
We still don’t know.
Maybe one day Brian Frisby and/or Trueheart Brown can finally tell us what else they talked about up there from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM with Marsh and Steed other than bad briefings, bad clones and “Hey… can you give us some cubies and Gatorades?”.
Did they ever actually talk about the FIRE?… and what could/should be actually done about it given that Blue Ridge had NO assignment from ANYONE?
Either way, from the Overhead perspective you cant assign a resource to a Division, then decide you want them in your “hip pocket” without communicating that to the assigned Div.
Continues to be a mess!
Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 3, 2016 at 12:56 am
>> Norb Szczurek said…
>>
>> Either way, from the Overhead perspective you cant
>> assign a resource to a Division, then decide you want
>> them in your “hip pocket” without communicating that
>> to the assigned Div.
>>
>> Continues to be a mess!
Agree.
What remains ‘astounding’ to is something I referenced above.
Even though OPS1 Abel told ADOSH he just “wanted Blue Ridge in his hip pocket”… there is no evidence that OPS1 Todd Abel was even AWARE that at 10:00 AM, Blue Ridge just ‘up and left’ the place where he wanted them to ‘stage’ ( at the YFD station ) and they then self-staged all the way out in the Sesame Clearing area where the Granite Mountain Crew Carriers were.
Again… with absolutely NO actual ‘assignment’.
But now… ( apparently )… they weren’t even where Todd Abel thought they were and he wasn’t even aware they decided, apprently all by themselves, to just go out and do nothing in the Sesame Clearing rather than sit around and do nothing at the YFD station.
Bizarre.
Copy.
I’m down with a cold, and my furnace went out today, so I’m wrapped in blankets (sitting next to my open oven at 300 degrees to heat my kitchen where I still have my computer set up) trying to keep from getting even colder, but yes. To both you and WTKTT (thanks for the further details).
This has ALWAYS bugged me, uninformed civilian monday morning quarter-backer that I am.
Someone (Gary?, Bob?) wrote slightly downstream that “being staged” for hours on end is a part of “normal.” So I thought, in response, well, OK.
So I appreciate you saying this, Norb.
Three frickin IHCs were ordered Saturday night. So, apparently, SOMEBODY thought there was some kind of potential need for them to do something related to this fire.
According to Gary, what Hotshots do is build line and fire it. In spades. For a reason.
Apparently someone thought that was going to be needed to be done on Sunday.
One of those Hotshot Crews didn’t even manage to make it there.
One of them mostly sat around for the most part of the day doing basically nothing.
While the third spent most of the day putting in a really small fraction of that line. With not one molecule of help from the Hotshot Crew that actually managed to get there.
I have never been able to understand this. But I’m just a desktop internet warrior, so I just assumed I didn’t know enough about this stuff to say anything about how mystified I was about this.
So thanks, Norb, for asking your questions. It makes me feel a little less ……. stupid. Or something.
And thanks, WTKTT, for detailing it out.
accidents happen and nobody has a perfect day every day all day allways…../ judgment and perception is ops on a fire…..!!1! people who nver had a mistake ora close call never done ops on a fire…… hindsight always 2020
Reply to Dale1 post on January 2, 2016 at 8:16 am
>> Dale1 said…
>>
>> …hindsight always 2020
Not always. In this case… we still do NOT have the 20/20 ‘hindsight’ necessary to have the best chance of making sure ( as much as humanly possible ) nothing like this ever happens again.
There is still so much that is NOT known about everything that was going down that entire weekend that you can’t call the hindsight more than about 15/15.
And so… the ongoing ‘discussions’ ( like this one ) and the hopes of INCREASING the actual ‘hindsight’.
They fucked up. That’s always been pretty obvious.
But, like we would all hope for even ourselves, they should be HONORED for their accomplishments and not DISHONORED for their failure(s), now that they are GONE.
The Granite Mountain Hotshots proved that you only get to make one mistake of that magnitude when fighting a fire… and you will most likely pay for it with your life.
But they should not be ‘remembered’ for that one, fatal mistake.
That being said… those who remain alive owe it to them ( and everyone else still being sent into harm’s way ) to know as MUCH as possible about what REALLY happened… and WHY… in order to have the BEST chance of it never happening again.
This was no accident but a major screw up that killed 19 Dale 1. All the fire fighters tell me that and say this type tragedy needs to be addressed and exposed so to minimize future death tolls of wild land fire fighters. It is known that nearly all if not all accidents are not accidents but preventable incidents if proper protocol is followed and safe procedures adhered to. There was absolutely no good reason to risk 17 young lives with chain saws and empty five gallon bladders and Pulaski’s to protect structures. On that note I hope those men were not doing that type of structure protection before. Even fire engines have hell to put out house fires with all their gear and water tanks and hoses to run off fire hydrants. I think citizens with fire hoses have a better equipment and chance than wild land fire fighters crossing dense manzanita and playing Russian Roulette to try to protect structures with their puny equipment. Let the Big Dog Eat I say.
**
** NATIONAL CENTER FOR ATMOSPHERIC RESEARCH ( NCAR )
** PUBLISHES ITS OWN 3-D MODEL OF THE YARNELL HILL FIRE
AtmosNews :: NCAR & UCAR Science on YouTube
Yarnell Hill Fire: Coupled weather-wildland fire modeling at NCAR
New 3D fire model of Yarnell published December 7, 2015
NOTE: In order to see exactly where Peeples Valley, Yarnell and the deployment site are on the topographic undermap, you pretty much have to watch this whole video at least once to see the extent of the fire spread into those areas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S3m0hiZQs0
The comments posted along with this video…
—————————————————————————————
Published on Dec 7, 2015 by…
The National Center For Atmospheric Research ( NCAR )
On June 30, 2013, 19 firefighters were killed during the Yarnell Hill fire when a gust front coming from the northeast blew across the fire, changing its direction and making it spread rapidly across the area where the firefighters were sheltered.
The animation depicts a CAWFE coupled weather-wildland fire model simulation of the Yarnell Hill Fire. The horizontal resolution was 370 m, a vector is shown each 4 model grid points. It begins at 2 am on 6/30/13. The fire is initialized in the model using the ~3 am VIIRS active fire detection map. Each frame is 1 minute apart, the sequence extends until 8:15 pm on 6/30. The fatality occurred around 4:45 PM.
The color bar on the right indicates the heat flux (watts per square meter) from the fire, with more intensely burning areas in bright yellow and white, and less intensely burning areas in darker reds. In the simulation, solar heating stirs up the boundary layer circulations throughout the day. Convection occurs in outer domains (not shown) to the northeast (upper right), creating high-based convective clouds as upper level air flows southeast over the Mogollon Rim. Rain falls into a very dry boundary layer, creating a broad gust front that reaches the south edge of the fire at frame 936. Comparison with the fatality report suggest the simulated timing for the gust front reaching the northeast edge of the fire and the fatality site are within 15 minutes of occurrence.
Category: Science & Technology
License: Standard YouTube License
————————————————————————————-
Followup…
National Center For Atmospheric Research ( NCAR ) scientist Janice Coen is the one who created that new Yarnell Hill 3D simulation of the 2013 Yarnell Hill fire in Arizona, which killed 19 firefighters.
This Yarnell Model was used to specifically TEST a brand new Wildfire prediction computer modeling system that is ready to go into trial use in the state of Colorado.
Here is more about this NEW technology for predicting wildland fire behavior which could become a de-facto NEW STANDARD in a very short period time…
PHYS.ORG – ONLINE
Article Title: NCAR to develop wildland fire prediction system for Colorado
Published: December 9, 2015
http://phys.org/news/2015-12-ncar-wildland-colorado.html
From the article…
——————————————————————————-
Photo Caption…
NCAR scientist Janice Coen used the CAWFE modeling system to create this simulation of the 2013 Yarnell Hill fire in Arizona, which killed 19 firefighters.
The state of Colorado is turning to the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) to establish the country’s most advanced system for predicting wildland fire behavior, including where and how quickly the blazes will spread.
To accurately forecast a wildland fire in detail, a computer model has to simulate highly localized winds that drive the flames. Adding to the complexity, a major blaze alters local weather, creating winds within the fire that may be more than 10 times stronger than those outside. These internal winds can contribute to potentially deadly accelerations, increases in intensity, unexpected shifts in direction, or splits in which the flames go in multiple directions.
This interplay between fire and weather is particularly pronounced in Colorado and other western states, where clouds produce strong outflows and winds can rush down mountainsides and vary from one valley to the next.
To tackle this problem, the Colorado forecasting system will use a breakthrough computer model developed by NCAR scientist Janice Coen, who has studied wildland fires for more than 20 years. NCAR’s CAWFE modeling system (derived from Coupled Atmosphere Wildland Fire Environment) combines weather prediction with fire behavior simulations to capture the highly complex interplay of fire and weather.
By restarting the model every few hours with the latest satellite and aircraft observations of an active fire—a process known as cycling—Coen and her research partner, University of Maryland professor Wilfrid Schroeder, have shown that it is possible to accurately predict the course of a blaze over the next one to two days. They can keep refreshing the model, making it possible to simulate the entire lifetime of even a very long-lived fire, from ignition to extinction.
“Even though fires are complex and rapidly changing and often described as unpredictable, much of a fire event can be foreseen by this more sophisticated model,” Coen said.
The system will provide unprecedented detail about interactions between weather and fire, which can create dangers for firefighters on the ground as well as for firefighting aircraft. It will build on a specialized computer model that was developed at NCAR with support by the National Science Foundation, NASA, and the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
“This technology represents the next generation of wildland fire prediction,” said NCAR science manager William Mahoney
——————————————————————————-
Thanks for this WTKTT. When I watched it this morning I thought “I’ve seen that before.”
It was actually first published by Wildfire Today on June 6, 2014. I’m sure it was published with an article, but I’m looking at their YouTube Publication.
Yarnell Hill Fire, simulation of fire spread and wind
https://youtu.be/bl_0WFMmVsI
“Published on Jun 6, 2014
This is an animation developed by Janice Coen, Ph.D., a Project Scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado. It simulates the spread of the Yarnell Hill Fire and the wind direction and speed. On June 30, 2013 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots were overrun by the fire when the winds from a thunderstorm cell northeast of the fire changed the direction of spread of the fire, surprising the firefighters, resulting in their entrapment.”
Although I haven’t watched it enough, it really is quite remarkable and deserves serious further discussion. I wish the timestamps on it were more useful. It’s hard to follow, timewise-specifically.
I think it has ‘resurfaced’ because they are ready to start testing that new computer model of Coen’s out there in Colorado.
It really is about time there was a ‘leap forward’ in computer based predictive modeling for widlfires.
I’m as sorry as I can be that it might have taken the deaths of 19 men on one single fire to ‘ramp up’ this technology… but I’m glad it’s finally happening.
Pretty hard to say how this will actually WORK, though, even when it is made available to existing fire management teams.
I mean… how much is it going to COST and what hoops is someone going to have to jump through to have access to that computing power ( and special satellite tasking/feeds ) there in Colorado?
Type 1 incidents only?
Even then… during a busy fire season… only SOME ‘Type 1 incidents’?
Who gets to set the ‘priority’ for the computer time?
Reply to calvin post on January 1, 2016 at 5:38 am
>> calvin said ( to Woodsman )…
>>
>> My contributions to this thread are quite small, maybe even insignificant
Surely you jest, calvin.
In addition to the list below ( and Marti’s additions about your vigilance regarding the dozer and its operator and that continuing potential significance )… you were the one who FIRST took a look at the following THREE pieces of evidence and realized they might be related and all “telling us something important”…
1. Eric Marsh heard telling OPS1 Todd Abel, at 3:50 PM in the Caldwell video, that he was (quote) “working his way off the top”.
2. Eric Marsh later being captured in a background radio conversation at exactly 4:27 PM ( known as the YARNELL-GAMBLE video presumably shot by Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble ) telling someone who was directly asking him about Granite Mountain’s status that they were (quote) “Coming from the heel of the fire”.
3. Eric Marsh presumably NOT having been with Steed and the crew when Steed made his first pseudo-MAYDAY call at 4:39 PM… and Marsh only appearing on the radio some 2 minutes AFTER that ( meaning he had to run TO their location ).
These three things alone were the basis for the ‘pull’ theory… that Eric Marsh *might* have been out AHEAD of Steed and the crew that day instead of the ‘push’ theory, which suggested that Marsh was ‘behind’ them and trying to just ‘catch up’.
You were always pointing out the following about these THREE separate pieces of evidence…
1. When Marsh told Abel at 3:50 PM he was (quote) “working his way off the TOP”… TOP didn’t just mean the higher point of the Weavers north of the anchor point. TOP meant Marsh was already headed SOUTH from the anchor point by 3:50 PM and was already coming all the way OFF the high ridge and down towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
2. When Marsh said “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”… this verbiage meant that they really were, at that point, coming TO his location ( out ahead of them ) FROM the ‘heel of the fire’.
3. Marsh had perhaps gotten all the way to one of those ‘mounds’ just west of the Boulder Springs Ranch and it was from there that he ( perhaps ) made that radio transmission mentioned in the SAIR about “That’s it. That’s where we want the retardant”… and it was from THERE that he then chose to RUN BACK WEST to Steed and the Crew and join them at the deployment site.
You put all this together long BEFORE there was even any mention by John Maclean and Holly Neill ( at Bill Gabbert’s Widlfire Today site ) that they *thought* they were hearing Marsh say something like “I’m at the house” in one of the background radio captures.
And to this day… I have already admitted that ( for my own part, anyway )… I was resisting buying into the ‘pull’ theory versus the ‘push’ theory for only one big reason.
It was simply ‘inconceivable’ ( to me, anyway ) that Eric Marsh could have been anywhere
out ‘ahead’ of Jesse Steed and that crew… with any kind of ‘eyes on the fire’… and he would
have still allowed them to keep coming forward to their deaths.
My other reason for resisting the ‘pull’ theory was the fact that if Marsh really was already on his way down to the Boulder Springs Ranch at 3:50 PM when we hear him talking to OPS1 Todd Abel… that means that when Abel specifically told Marsh to “Hunker and be safe”… Marsh ALREADY obviously had no intentions of doing any such thing and then apparently hid this fact from his own OPS1 Field Supervisor.
But if we accept as TRUE what Brendan McDonough admitted to hearing over the GM Crew Net in that eventual softball interview with Bill Gabbert… then that really does look like that’s what happened that day… and the ‘pull’ theory is the only viable one.
I still believe we might be looking at some tragic ‘miscommunication’ scenario here that might go something like this…
Jesse Steed and Eric Marsh DID ‘argue’ about this move, and everything that Prescott City attorney Jon Paladini says he heard from Brendan McDonough ( via Darell Willis ) is TRUE. Eric Marsh DID ( eventually ) just ORDER Steed to bring those men out of safe black and down to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Since Eric Marsh WAS ‘out ahead of them’ that day… Jesse Steed then just ASSUMED that Marsh was acting as ‘forward lookout’ and if there was ANYTHING they might need to be warned about… he would certainly TELL them… right? Why would he NOT… right? Easy assumption to make.
Similarly… Eric Marsh was ‘assuming’ Steed and the men were making better TIME on their “coming from the heel of the fire” than they really were.
Marsh might have had a ‘feeling’ they could ‘make it’… but was only basing that on his own perceived TIME it had taken HIM to get near the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Marsh might have simply been totally not realizing that however quickly HE had been able to traverse the route was NOT going to be how long Steed and a line of 17 other men with packs and chainsaws trying to stay single-file through that maze of manzanita was really going to take.
Hikers Joy A. Collura and Tex ( Sonny ) Gilligan have said many times that it would have been hard for ANYONE to make good time in that maze-like esplosive vegetation on that box canyon… but ONE PERSON, traveling by themselves and without having to make sure anyone behind them was ‘keeping up’ would always have a much BETTER chance at makinig better time than 18 men trying to do it in ‘single file’ mode.
So when Eric Marsh told someone ( we still don’t know who ) over a TAC radio channel at 4:27 PM (quote) “They’re coming from the heel of the fire”… Eric Marsh himself might have actually thought they were just about to come walking out of the brush at his location… and he had NO IDEA they were so ‘bogged down’ out there in the canyon and still hundreds and hundreds of YARDS away from safety.
So although we may never know the full ‘strategic’ part of this story ( as in… exactly what PLAN there might have been in place and WHY Marsh had ordered Steed to ‘come down’ )… the ‘tactical’ part of it ( the move itself ) really might have just become this tragic case of miscommunication and misunderstanding and bad assumptions.
1. Steed was ASSUMING Eric Marsh would warn them if they should stop coming forward.
2. Marsh was ASSUMING they were making much better time than they were and that they were about to ‘appear’ at his location… so he felt no need to WARN them.
Classic Catch-22 of ‘assumptions’ gone bad.
Anyway… thanks for all your efforts here, calvin.
Glad to know you are still following and please continue to contribute.
You are ( and have been ) a “steely-eyed rocket man” when it comes to looking at the actual EVIDENCE.
I’ve never discounted the “pull” theory, but the more its talked about and the more I think about it, there must be something to it.
If Marsh was with the crew all the time why have a conversation with Steed over the radio where Steed says something like “…I knew we were gonna be asked to do that”. He must not have been with them at that point.
IF we say Marsh was not with the crew, then unless anyone has his GPS tracker, or triangulated his phone, all we can say is he was somewhere between the BSR and the deployment site and he was ahead of the crew. Without any other proof, those like Holly, who say he WAS actually at so-and-so place can’t possibly know, and can’t pinpoint it.
And IF Marsh wasn’t with them at the time when the crew first realised they were in real trouble and cut off, how did he make it back to them? Could he see them from wherever he was? Was visibility that good? Or did he just head back the way he came and followed the sounds of the chainsaws?
Reply to Otis post on January 1, 2016 at 4:14 pm
>> Otis said…
>>
>> If Marsh was with the crew all the time why have a conversation
>> with Steed over the radio where Steed says something like “…I
>> knew we were gonna be asked to do that”. He must not have
>> been with them at that point.
Yes. You’re talking about what we hear them saying to each other in those two 9 second video clips filmed by Christopher MacKenzie there at that ‘anchor point’ rest location.
The SAIT was always wrong about the TIME ‘at that point’.
We have already proven here ( thanks to calvin and others ) that Christopher MacKenzie’s Canon camera had it’s time set about 8 minutes AHEAD of ‘real time’ that day. So instead of those 2 video clips being shot at (supposedly) 4:04 PM… the time was actually around 3:56 PM.
Something else that Steed said was “And it’s ( the fire ) almost made it to that road that we walked in on”.
Again… it was calvin himself who pointed out something this most likely meant.
It meant that where Marsh was, Jesse Steed was pretty much assuming he could no longer see what he and the crew could see… so THAT is why he was choosing to INFORM Eric Marsh about the current location of the fireline.
Again… just one more piece of evidence that Marsh had, in fact, already taken off to the SOUTH circa 3:49 ro 3:50 PM when we hear him telling his OPS1 ( Todd Abel ) “I’m making my way off the top”.
>> Otis also said…
>>
>> IF we say Marsh was not with the crew, then unless anyone has
>> his GPS tracker, or triangulated his phone, all we can say is
>> he was somewhere between the BSR and the deployment
>> site and he was ahead of the crew. Without any other proof,
>> those like Holly, who say he WAS actually at so-and-so place
>> can’t possibly know, and can’t pinpoint it.
OR… unless SOMETHING was said over the GM CREW NET that would help pinpoint his location… and someone who had access to that radio channel ( Brendan McDonough, Blue Ridge Hotshots, others? ) heard it.
It is still HIGHLY likely that ALL of those people ( who had access to the GM CREW NET ) heard things… but whether there was anything specific enough to help pinpoint anyone’s location at any given time that afternoon will remain a mystery until those people come forward and tell us what they heard… or what they did NOT hear.
>> Otis also said…
>>
>> And IF Marsh wasn’t with them at the time when the crew first
>> realised they were in real trouble and cut off, how did he make
>> it back to them? Could he see them from wherever he was?
>> Was visibility that good? Or did he just head back the way
>> he came and followed the sounds of the chainsaws?
Well… if we accept what Brendan McDonough said in that softball interview with Wildfire Today’s Bill Gabbert… that Eric Marsh WAS ‘scouting ahead’ of Steed and the crew that afternoon… then it stands to reason that wherever Marsh was he had already ‘marked the way’ with pink ribbon/flagging as was his habit.
That means he would have had his OWN ribbon/flagging to follow BACKWARDS if/when the time came to do that.
That COULD have made it possible for him to cover a lot of ground out there in that bowl in just the 2 minutes he seems to have had to make it back to them.
There is still this other rumor that even BEFORE the initial MAYDAY call at 4:39 PM, Jesse Steed said something over the GM CREW NET along the lines of “We’re not going to make it”.
That means Eric Marsh could have been well on his way BACK to them even some time before they even located the deployment site they were going to use and before Steed ever even attempted to contact “Bravo 33”.
Every minute backward that gets added to the moment when Eric Marsh himself ( wherever he was ) KNEW the men were in deep shit just adds time and distance to where his actual location out ahead of them *could* have been.
It all still remains a conundrum.
I have always said that if there ever did turn out to be proof that Eric Marsh was anywhere out AHEAD of those men that day… instead of BEHIND them, catching up, and just as blind to the fire as they were for that critical time period…
…then that would RAISE a whole lot of OTHER questions that would then need to be answered.
And that remains the case.
The SAIT initially reported that Jesse Steed’s first pseudo-MAYDAY at 4:39 PM was ‘over-modulated’ and ‘broken’. Once they finally admitted to having the Aaron Hulburd Helmet-Cam video and we could hear that for ourselves it was obvious that was NOT the case.
What they described as ‘over-modulation’ was at least TWO chainsaws ALREADY running in the background very near to Jesse Steed… and he was YELLING just as much to hear HIMSELF talking as to make sure his words were getting out over the radio over the din of the chainsaws.
So that has always meant that some fair amount of time and decision making searching for a deployment site and beginning to ‘prepare it’ had ALREADY taken place before we ever hear Jesse Steed attempting to talk to “Bravo 33”.
We don’t know how much TIME that really was.
Eric Marsh could have become aware of their predicament several minutes BEFORE that first pseudo-MAYDAY call from Steed.
He even might have been radioing instructions to Steed WHILE he was running back towards him. Things like “find a deployment site” or “start cutting out around yourselves” or even “get on the radio and call Air Attack”.
All things Steed himself might have already been getting ready to do but Marsh might still have felt the need to be telling him those sorts of things, anyway.
If there was ANYTHING like that going down over the GM CREW NET in those final minutes… then a lot of people who are still alive most likely heard it.
Those ‘things’ still might not tell us exactly WHERE Eric Marsh was when the shit started to hit the fan out there… but anything like that most certainly would give us a better picture of what was really happening in those final minutes.
You can bet Eric was ahead of the men and had flagged the route down to the Helms. We watched him flag going up and that was even along the two track. Also I found that pink flagging that had melted into a ball right at the place where they descended. So yes he would have been able to back track to get to the men. Also it makes sense that he would have passed right through that sand draw where they deployed some 70 yards or so to the North of the South rim. That sand draw did afford some short distances of clearing and would have been a slightly quicker route to get through the manzanita. Sadly they cleared out instead of moving quickly to the boulders only that short distance from the sand draw to an area that about the size of a football field. I really saw those boulders as an area of last resort for Joy and I since there are areas on the West Side of the Weavers similar to that near the Helms. To the North they had about 100 yards and a larger area of boulders. Both areas were devoid of vegetation and in my mind the only way they would have been able to survive the fire. The theory that they might not have been able to see those areas due to smoke does not fit well since they were seeing the Helms and headed that way before the fire changed direction.
Thanks Otis for the observation that Marsh was out of sight or at least a distance away from the men that he had to use radio to communicate with Steed. That was exactly what we saw that day–Marsh away from the men alone or once with a singular person, a photo of that Joy has. I saw him as a second lookout and as keeping ahead of the men to lay pink ribbon where he picked out the path for them.
Minor correction for the post above.
I implied that Jesse Steed actually KNEW exactly where Eric Marsh was circa 3:56 PM… when we hear him talking to Marsh over the radio in those two 9 second video clips shot by GM Hotshot Christopher MacKenzie.
I don’t think that is actually the case.
If you accept the ‘pull’ theory… and that Marsh was ALREADY on his way south and “working his way off the TOP” ( of the western ridge ) when we hear him say that to OPS1 Todd Abel at 3:50 PM ( in Robert Caldwell’s video )…
…then 6 minutes later… circa 3:56 PM, there’s no telling how far SOUTH Marsh might have been when we then hear him talking to Jesse Steed in the MacKenzie video clips.
He could have easily been ‘out of sight’ from Jesse’s viewpoint there near the anchor point by then ( and probably was ).
So ( as calvin originally noted ) the REASON we hear Jesse Steed saying “And it’s almost made it to that two-track road we walked in on” was BECAUSE Eric Marsh must have been ‘out of sight’ to Jesse, at that point, and Jesse just wanted to be sure Marsh knew where the fireline was at that point just in CASE he couldn’t see it anymore.
So that section I wrote above really should have read like this…
—————————————————————————-
Something else that Steed said was “And it’s ( the fire ) almost made it to that road that we walked in on”.
Again… it was calvin himself who pointed out something this most likely meant.
It meant that WHEREVER Marsh was circa 3:56 PM, Jesse Steed was pretty much assuming Marsh could no longer see what he and the crew could see… so THAT is why he was choosing to INFORM Eric Marsh about the current location of the fireline.
Again… just one more piece of evidence that Marsh had, in fact, already taken off to the SOUTH circa 3:49 ro 3:50 PM when we hear him telling his OPS1 ( Todd Abel ) “I’m making my way off the top”.
————————————————————————
Thanks WTKTT. Two firemen are smarter than six and know what is right for the situation. I have to agree with Willis on that one I know he is an intelligent fire fighter person. I think if I were in his shoes with the crowd he is dealing with I might be tempted to do what he does. I have never really understood how he could have testified against Joy for Amanda. Joy has never harmed any one and her efforts have been honest. She does not like bull shit and will confront anyone even those of the highest credentials. She has fought to stay alive and against Doctors prognosis and predictions been able to survive. I think why the Fence play had so much about her was because its director, Erin Matthews knew her history and the tragedies in life she has had to overcome. She is a survivor and deserves the titile DESERT WALKER. She has earned that.
I for one do not believe Amanda speaks for the majority of the loved ones and friends of the GMHS. I know she does not speak for the tax paying citizen. Be that as it may we all feel the loss of all the loved ones. Despite those that want to go on without further inquiry, the people on this site believe that would be a travesty considering the future of wild land fire fighting safety. Just as WTKTT and others on this site have said, this is a National Tragedy that killed 19 good people. The loved ones and the world have every right to know every detail of what caused this and how and what can remedy this type of tragedy from happening again.
JD deserves the award of the year for his continued efforts at getting to the bottom of this white wash. He is indeed able to wipe his brow at all the accusations thrown at him and continue his quest to doing the right thing and exposing liars and white washers. Thank you JD and all helping his efforts.
I am celebrating this New Year with a glass of purple wine visiting with Son and granddaughter. All this is good for the heart. Reminds me how fortunate to have been associated with all of you on this site. I know how little I really know about fire fighting wild fires and thanks to you all you have taught me so much, but not only fire fighting but life itself and how you care. You have shown me perseverance and how to carry the torch of truth without wavering or backing down. You have not folded, much like JD, we have followed your and his example to continue the struggle even though we appear to be in the detested minority at times. Those here to the great majority have no financial or other axes to grind. Instead each freely gives of time, finances and expertise to help toward what 19 losts souls cannot now give. None seek accolades or ego aggrandizement but want to add to what will save their fellow person or clear up what is fixable.
Some may wonder why a non fire fighter like myself would give so much to this effort. For one thing I lost a son needlessly, much like the loved ones did of the GMHS crew. I can scarcely walk past the monument where we passed the 19 without weeping. Unless you have lost a son or daughter you would not know that. Actually I have lost both a son and daughter. That will be burned into the loved ones the rest of their lives and anything like the monument will trigger that sadness of loss.
Then it is just the right thing to do. If fire fighting continues without looking into why the scew up happened from day one and why management was so bad and how could well trained men take on a suicide mission needs to be understood else future lives and screwed up fire management will continue to take innocent lives. You see, I was there and Joy nearly sacrificed her life by being stubborn. Joy tells me that 48 minutes after we were on the spot they descended to their deaths, they did go down. Now I had lost 40 minutes of precious time to go back down from the top of the Weaver Range to retrieve Joy and I realized that we were on precious escape time even on the two track. I have sometimes had a tinge of guilt since I am older, a mountain man of old time, and had knowledge even without formal fire fighting training that to descend there could and would mean certain death with a wind change. But I realize those Steed and Marsh would have laughed at an old head who had not experienced the wild fires they had. I had felt that change when I topped the Weaver where you could feel the change. That was a good reason to go back and once more argue with a hard head, and fortunately I did.
Say what you will against me on these accounts but I was there and eye witness and kept yelling at Joy to photograph things. She did not realize the magnitude of what was going down==yet we were watching a horrendous fire devour a mountain in less than fourteen minutes and that was with minimal wind or none when the fire was going in the direction of Peeples Valley. Even at that time at 11:30 and the fire a mile to a mile and half away I knew how quickly the wind could reverse and how hard it would be to outrun it. Time was of essence and it was no time to stay in that green. We later saw how a piece of PVC pipe in the center of that two track right where they went down melted to a charred snake like form and a ribbon had melted to a round ball that looked like a meteorite until I handled it and it fell apart to expose the pink inside. Milk cans of old at the grader site, Donuts planned deployment place, had melted the lead out of the center while the plate on the rusted bottom of the grader cab had turned blue from the heat. `
Seems someone needed education on the temperatures and distance from a manzanita fire to be safe and survive. Why I have always maintained that site ought to be a training area for future firemen. A half acre will more than cover the so called grave site that are not but death sites You can easily and cheaply build a brick wall with locked gate so no one but widows that want it that way can see in and if you put Constantine wire atop the wall you won’t even need a guard there to keep the curious out. The rest of that will train future fire fighters of all the hazards of traversing mottled manzanita, scrub oak, catclaw and bear wallowed brush as well as problems of going downhill to flank a wild fire with an obvious storm headed your way. Call it what you want but supervisors should have been screaming for those men to stay put in the black in those conditions.
I have shed a lot of tears on those men’s behalf as many others have I have also mourned the loss of our elders to the tune of 74 last count out of 650 residents since the fire. They lost their homes and had cracker box replacements that most are grateful for. Fortunately I only lost my rental of Apartment #15 at the Oak Ridge Motel. We and several others were evicted after the fire but I have since purchased a rock cabin that survived the fire. I like it except I wish it were in the middle of the five acres I have ten miles out of Aguila where the nearest neighbor I three miles to the South and to the North is adjoining BLM and nothing for a hundred miles. I can shoot my 06 out the back door and run naked if I like or yell my wounded lungs out if I please without offending a soul. Well the coyotes might not like it but that is to keep them at a distance anyway–they love chicken meat as much as I love my desert egg layers.
I have said enough here. Keep up the good work and my gratitude to all of you for making this past year a blessing.
One can only appreciate your efforts to do what is right and good. Your rewards I am afraid from me will just have to be a free hike anytime you feel you want–that is after another few weeks of my health recovery.
Whew, do not dare leave this site Bob Powers, Your input is too important to this site. You have contributed immensely to the ongoing investigation and there is much more to be revealed. We are talking about 19 lives here and it is all important that no one leaves this–we are all indebted, future wild land firefighters, the 19 GMHS, their loved ones and friends, and the tax paying citizen to see this through. You after all are a key player here and we need your input, indeed much more than mine and equal or more to anyone on this site. Now I have had at least three heart attacks within the past three weeks , don’t give me another.
Happy New Year to every one. Be careful the cops and the non professional drunks are out tonight. I will be riding my Harley home tomorrow from Phoenix where I am visiting my son. But not tonight for sure.
Sonny-
You beat me to it.
We are a family unit here. Some have to realize this is not just a page of data from diverse set of people but a lot of pure love was put into this whole site. The frustrations and not being on same perception does not mean walk away for good- I mean, I could not imagine the site without any of you—
It’s not like we are a divorced family here or going off to college— a lot of us are retired folks tired and so go have a great Holiday night and Happy New Year and see you some time next year— probably when we get those interviews and we will know and see then if there is a gag order.
I have not been reading here much due to funeral stuff and Sonny’s family stuff but it was terrible to get the news on Bob— because we all have to remember we are all so different and we are all allowed our different humble views on the topic—
Well Happy New Year – Blwyddyn Newydd Dda!
I’m hoping normal service will be restored by everyone, now we’re looking at another year gone by without the full truth being out.
Sonny/Joy you guys crack me up. Could run naked Sonny? Really? Well whatever floats your boat, it’s probably on a lot of bucket lists, might as well take the opportunity! Joy keep telling the stories, they always seem to have a moral in them.
For the record, I’m born and bred Welsh, and not offended by being mistaken for American 🙂
I only attempted to join in way back when everyone was trying to sort out what make and model some of the video/photo cameras were, and stuck around because I think this whole situation deserves resolution for the future. Twisp is a prime example of lessons not learned. I think in our heart of hearts we all know why GM died, and we’re just trying to fill in the gaps and colour in the big picture.
I really do hope we’ve not lost anyone from here, even those that read and never post, the more interest that remains, the more likely a truthfull outcome.
Here’s to 2016 being THE year we/you finally get to the bottom of the reasons for the deaths and they are stated publicly on here, with many thanks to JD.
Otis-I see you must be kin. Many of those Welsh are miners and seems that is in my Irish blood as well. I think it is our independent spirit that drives us to such jobs–something I see in the smoke jumpers of these wild fires.
See how Dr. Ted Putnam would not sign off when he saw the 14 death Storm King investigation was not up to par. He could save men that did not have the experience and time in he had as a smoke jumper. That kind of independent thinking coupled with experience is what we wish was available during the Yarnell crisis.
Ha, Otis, when I met Joy some five years ago I was living off to myself north of Dolan Springs. Don’t get property there if wind isn’t to your liking. It must blow 300 days out of the year and during the winter months they get cold. Well I had an outdoor shower at the time and there was Joy out in the shower with snow coming down. I though what kind of Eskimo have we got here. I had a bath tin tub inside to heat water on the wood stove, but she did not know the way of the wild at that time.
The old Irish warriors used to go into battle naked–that in itself should have scared the opposing army. But not good advice to run naked here in this Arizona sun–better to have a sheet over you at least–kind of like those Arabs. Black ninja clothes in that Aguila sun will roast you in a hurry. I wonder how those men could wear that clothing they were wearing the day we passed them in the 100F heat they were in. I would have been suffering heat prostration and no wonder you heard of a few suffering from heat exhaustion and even heat stroke. I was feeling it that day and so was Joy even lightly dressed as we were. It did get up to 106F and afternoons here in Arizona stay hot even up to sun down. Phoenix is a bad case, I was jumping in a swimming pool every half hour until 2:30 am in the morning to keep cool when using a camper to visit a son there. God have mercy if the electric goes off there–a lot of elders will succumb to the heat problem.
Reply to Sonny post on December 29, 2015 at 8:34 pm
>> Sonny asked…
>>
>> Does Amanda really represent all the families or just her own purpose
>> for pushing this thing to be a private land deal and memorial off of tax
>> payer money? –- how more selfish can you get.
The ( final ) version of Arizona House or Representatives Bill HB2624 that was sponsored by Arizona State Representative ( R – Prescott ) Karen Fann ( and others ) and was passed by both the Arizona House and Senate and signed into law by (then) Arizona Governor Jan Brewer on April 30, 2014 is here…
http://www.azstateparks.com/publications/downloads/House_Bill_2624.pdf
The ‘position’ on the Board that Amanda Marsh was ‘appointed’ to is position number 9 out of the 14 Board positions established by the legislation…
9. A RELATIVE OF A MEMBER OF THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOT CREW WHO LOST HIS LIFE FIGHTING THE YARNELL HILL FIRE, WHO IS APPOINTED BY THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
There is no record and/or documentation of exactly HOW Amanda Marsh was ‘appointed’ to this position by (then) Arizona Speaker of the House Andy Tobin. She just was.
There is also no record that any/all of the other “Relatives of a member of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew” were even notified or made aware they were ‘eligible’ for this Board position.
The most likely scenario that cause Amanda Marsh to be ‘appointed’ to this Board position is that Bill Sponsor Karen Fann knew already knew that Ms. Marsh WANTED to be on this Board… and she simply gave her name to Speaker of the House Andy Tobin as the one and only ‘designee’ for the position… and he simply obliged Karen Fann and made the appointment.
Remember that State Representative Karen Fann and Amanda Marsh ALREADY had an ’employer/employee’ business relationship prior to the Yarnell incident and the creation of this Arizona PUBLIC Board.
Amanda Marsh is known to have been Karen Fann’s ‘farrier’ and had been paid to take care of Karen Fann’s many horses… so the ‘quid pro quo’ aspects of the appointment are still real questions.
The PURPOSE of ‘Board position 9’ was obviously meant to be someone who would represent ALL of the ‘Relatives of the Granite Mountain Hotshots’, and not just someone who would be pushing their OWN personal agenda.
The minutes of the meetings ( the ones that have been published, anyway ) indicate that on a number of occasions… and because of her ‘Position’ on the Board as a ‘representative’ of the ‘relatives’ of GM Hotshots… Ms. Marsh was asked to ‘poll’ the relatives and family members for their ‘opinions’ about certain things.
There is no record of HOW Ms. Marsh went about doing this, or whether ALL of the ‘relatives’ were ever included on these informal ‘polls’ the Board asked her to do and then simply ‘report back’ to them on the ‘results of her informal polls’.
Case in point…
At the July 31, 2015 Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board… the issue of PUBLIC ACCESS to the eventual new Arizona State Park came up… and the ‘minutes’ say this…
——————————————————————————-
Amanda Marsh stated that she wanted to make sure the families were ok with people having access down to the fatality site and wanted the families to have a vote.
——————————————————————————-
The Board agreed to this ‘voting’ process being requested by Amanda Marsh and their instructions to her were then as follows…
——————————————————————————–
Amanda will contact families in two-weeks.
If there is a split among the family members, the Board would vote.
————————————————————————————
There were ( once again ) NO specific instructions to Board member Amanda Marsh about how to go about doing this ‘informal polling/voting’ or how to make sure ALL of the relatives and family members got to have their say/vote.
That important ‘process’ was completely left up to Ms. Amanda Marsh.
( See below about the Board itself eventually realizing this was never the best of ideas ).
The next scheduled meeting of the Board, at which Ms. Amanda Marsh was supposed have completed this informal ‘polling/voting’ and come back with RESULTS, was scheduled for TWO months later… on September 18, 2015.
That meeting came and went… and the ‘minutes’ of that specific meeting were NEVER released until only recently ( in violation of Arizona Open Meetings laws ).
When they finally were released ( just recently, more than 3 months late ) we finally got to see what happened with Amanda Marsh’s ‘informal polling’ of family members, and what the Board then decided to do about PUBLIC ACCESS.
But only kinda-sorta.
Even these ‘minutes’ do NOT contain any DETAIL about what Amanda Marsh reported back to the Board.
All the minutes said was that the Board ‘discussed’ the ‘canvassing of the families to determine access ( and design ) to the fatality site’.
There are no detailed RESULTS, as supposedly presented by Amanda Marsh.
Here is all the minutes have to say about this part of the meeting…
————————————————————————————–
Discussion was then had by members of the board regarding the fatality site that included:
– Canvasing the families to determine access and design to the fatality site
– Erosion control at the site
– Material the crosses will be made out of granite, marble or other?
– How do we keep the public from walking where the 19 perished?
– Should there be a trail from the overlook to the fatality site?
– Social trails will be made if a trail is not constructed
– Other hotshot fatality sites around the country allow for individuals to come all the way up to the cross markers
– Allowing access to some and not others walks a fine line, and how would we enforce who gets to enter
– The public wants to pay respect to the fallen, and they want to leave mementos
– A compromise can be made that a trail is constructed down to the fatality site but access
to the actual place where the 19 fell would be further discussed
Chairwoman Black suggested a motion be made regarding trail access to the fatality site
More discussion was then had by all the member of the board in regard to protect and respect of the fatality site
– What material should the barrier be made out of: gabion, fence, boulders from the surrounding area, or granite
– If there were no barrier, what would stop people from walking onto the gravesites?
– People have respect of the site and will treat it accordingly.
– Having a barrier will elevate the site, and elevate the value of the site
Chairwoman Black asked for a motion and the design sub-committee will work on the design.
Motion: Rowle Simmons moved that the design sub-committee move forward in the redesign
of the fatality site with a barrier around the fatality site; and that a trail is constructed from the
overlook site to the fatality site. Also, in the design, take into account a place to leave mementos.
Chuck Tidey seconded the motion.
Darrell Willis and Jeff Whitney opposed.
Motion passed 8 – 2.
————————————————————————————–
NOTE: Even the actual codified MINUTES from this meeting contain the word GRAVESITES in reference to the area where the GM Hotshots deployed. That means that some members of this Board ( Karen Fann included? ) were STILL using that word GRAVESITES to reference the area even AS they were talking about what the PUBLIC ACCESS should be.
So that’s it, then.
We do NOT get to see what Ms. Amanda Marsh reported back.
We ONLY get to see ‘snippets’ of the discussion that then took place.
All we get to see is that the discussion DID lead to a VOTE to LIMIT PUBLIC ACCESS and put a BARRIER in place to prevent the PUBLIC from accessing what the minutes themselves refer to as “the GRAVESITES”… and that the already-approved design for the memorial should be ADJUSTED to reflect these new NO -PUBLIC-ACCESS to the GRAVESITES requirements.
In the end… it is more than ironic that the two Board members who voted NO to this ‘limited access’ policy were…
Former Prescott Widlland Division Chief Darrell Willis.
Current Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney.
The only two actual FIREMEN on the Board OPPOSED this ‘limited access’ decision.
So Amanda Marsh and a limited sub-set of family members ( pretty much ) got their way, after all… and we still don’t know if it was in accordance with the actual wishes of a majority of ALL the OTHER family members or just some personal agendas and preference(s) for how this PUBLIC money should be spent.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> and does Karen Fan represent all the tax paying public?
In the last revision of the Bill before it was passed into law… Karen Fann herself added 2 more ‘positions’ on the Board so that SHE, herself, could be appointed to it.
She was ‘appointed’ by her friend, Speaker of the House Andy Tobin, to this Board position…
13. ONE MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WHO REPRESENTS THE DISTRICT IN WHICH THE YARNELL HILL FIRE OCCURRED, WHO IS APPOINTED BY THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AS AN ADVISORY MEMBER.
Notice that this Board position is only supposed to be in an ‘advisory capacity’.
There is no specific language in this position description to say that she is supposed to be representing ‘all the tax paying public’… but it is most certainly ‘implied’.
She represents the Arizona ‘House’ ( Position 14 represents the Senate )… and that automatically means she is the ‘representative’ of the ‘representatives of the tax paying public’ who are footing the bill for ALL of this.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> I would like to see some signatures and responses from all the family
>> members and a response from an informed public after all the facts
>> of this case are revealed.
In the September 18, 2015 Board minutes… there is the following entry…
———————————————————————
A recommendation was given that all future correspondence to the families are formalized.
———————————————————————
This is, apparently, a realization on the part of the Board itself that it has probably never been totally ‘appropriate’ to just have been allowing Ms. Amanda Marsh to act as the sole ‘middle person’ between the Board and the families and relatives of the deceased, and it was never appropriate for them to not have ‘formalized correspondence’ with the family members for important matters such as DESIGN and ACCESS decisions.
But a little late.
The DESIGN and the ACCESS POLICIES are now ( literally ) ‘fixed in stone’ and it all ALREADY happened with just Ms. Amanda Marsh conducting her own, unsupervised, informal ‘polling’ of ‘family members’ of her own choosing.
Thanks WTKTT. Two firemen are smarter than six and know what is right for the situation. I have to agree with Willis on that one I know he is an intelligent fire fighter person. I think if I were in his shoes with the crowd he is dealing with I might be tempted to do what he does. I have never really understood how he could have testified against Joy for Amanda. Joy has never harmed any one and her efforts have been honest. She does not like bull shit and will confront anyone even those of the highest credentials. She has fought to stay alive and against Doctors prognosis and predictions been able to survive. I think why the Fence play had so much about her was because its director, Erin Matthews knew her history and the tragedies in life she has had to overcome. She is a survivor and deserves the titile DESERT WALKER. She has earned that.
I for one do not believe Amanda speaks for the majority of the loved ones and friends of the GMHS. I know she does not speak for the tax paying citizen. Be that as it may we all feel the loss of all the loved ones. Despite those that want to go on without further inquiry, the people on this site believe that would be a travesty considering the future of wild land fire fighting safety. Just as WTKTT and others on this site have said, this is a National Tragedy that killed 19 good people. The loved ones and the world have every right to know every detail of what caused this and how and what can remedy this type of tragedy from happening again.
JD deserves the award of the year for his continued efforts at getting to the bottom of this white wash. He is indeed able to wipe his brow at all the accusations thrown at him and continue his quest to doing the right thing and exposing liars and white washers. Thank you JD and all helping his efforts.
I have a few comments before I move on (hopefully) with my life, as I’m getting tired of obsessing with this and I think Mr. Powers is correct when he says that I already know the answer(s) as to why the GMIHC is dead. They broke the rules. In the interest of getting back to normal sleep habits and getting the shit done around the house that I should be doing in my off time, I have to wrap this up for me.
1. I don’t know who Calvin is but you got an answer out of me concerning wearing helmets when operating a UTV…I avoided agreeing or disagreeing with the question of it being “mouse nuts” that Frisby wasn’t wearing one. I’ll address it head-on now: it was “mouse nuts.” It’s not an indicator of whether a crew is competent or not. Our agency policy is a hardhat or motocross style helmet. The point of helmet or no helmet in the discussion of BR is insignificant. Don’t get caught up in the bullshit information and stick to the important stuff.
2. Thank you Bob. I have been contemplating, figuring, etc. as to what went wrong with GM. You told me that I already know and you are correct – the 10 & 18. There is a lot of information that I don’t know but I know what’s needed to keep me and those I’m responsible for safe – the 10 & 18.
3. RTS: thank you as well. You have given me an expanded knowledge and understanding of human factors relating to firefighter injuries and fatalities. You’re kind of an odd bird (I’m going to attribute that to too much smoke over the many years you have been in this business) but what you have been pointing me to has been received and appreciated. You may have kept me from getting my ass whooped by a hotshot crew and I’m too old for that bullshit. I’m at the age now that if you’re going to try that, you had BETTER be sure to kill me, understand? My animosity towards you has been based on the fact that I think you know facts and should share them or get others to share them – and I endeavored to make you spill it. It’s understandable to me now why that’s not so easy to do or realistic. They have to do it themselves.
4. I’m not a full-time federal wildland firefighter (thank God). I am state and only get involved in the federal system as an AD casual hire in the summer fire season. So take everything I say with that understanding. The 2 worlds are different. At home we shine on initial attack. We put them out quickly, aggressively, and safely. This is due, in part by not having so much red tape as the feds have to deal with. Over the years I have worked with enough hotshots crews to know that they are in fact elite resources. A smart middle line supervisor would be wise to listen to what they have to say. That’s one of the many reasons that I was dumbfounded to learn of the death of almost an entire one! When I found out that a city fire department managed to create one, well, that’s when my rage set in. Rage is not healthy so I’m taking steps to mitigate that.
5. Sonny, God bless ya man. You have some very good questions that deserve answers. You are a wise and good man. I hope you get better soon and stay that way as long as possible!
6. Marti, Gary is telling you truth and giving you tough love. I know it’s hard but understand that.
7. Joy, your posts are the most difficult to decipher. You have perfected the run-on sentence. You have a big heart. Keep up the good fight for truth as GM deserves it.
8. WTKTT, you are a skilled analyst. You have obvious legal training or at least advanced logic. I like that. You can stir the pot like the best of them. That can be a valuable skill to have. I believe that there quite possibly be no way in hell anyone will come forward at IM with such scrutiny. I agree that everything should be scrutinized but there’s a way that could be more understanding. You remind me of a prosecutor that thrives on having someone in the ‘hot seat.’ There’s nothing really wrong with that and I have enjoyed your rebuttals A LOT. You just need to work on technique to get what you want. Maybe think about fostering a more low-key environment that makes folks want to speak up. I realize that I have instigated a hell of a lot here for scrutiny. I really have. On more than one occasion, I have been just so pissed at the bullshit positions stated here. I have been trained to know when someone is lying and I pounce. Your skills are very important to the investigation so I would just give you my unsolicited advice on working on ways to be more relaxed in your ways. (THIS is the hardest suggestion I have because I am used to ‘dropping the sledge hammer’ as well, and I really like to do it.)
9. Gary (Ye Olde Codger Yet Magnificent Bastard), you will be hurting for the rest of your days for the GMIHC. You will be hurting about Battlement Creek as well. Keep doing what you are doing for the betterment of wildland firefighters in the future. You’re a good, good man. You’re also one tough son-of-a-bitch with a huge heart. You know the federal system both from a HS perspective and a law enforcement one. We share similar career paths and thought processes. Your writings have been the most useful of all to me here (probably because it’s like reading myself to myself). Thank you!!! The wildland firefighting world employs some seriously tough assholes like you………and like me. We would both have been in some serious trouble if we had worked together. We would have been so useful, yet so irritating to management, they just wouldn’t know what to do with us!!! Haha!
10. So my intentions, of showing up at some media blog and commenting, has to become a better fireline leader. To increase my knowledge and skill level so as reduce or eliminate the possibility of killing myself or those I am responsible for. I have done that. I’m heartbroken for GM and all who loved them. Take care of yourselves and happy new year to all!!!
Keep it real
Woodsman
REPLY TO-
Woodsman says
December 31, 2015 at 12:05 pm
I have a few comments before I move on (hopefully) with my life, as I’m getting tired of obsessing with this
REPLY: I will try to participate in a way you can decipher. Are you aware of my brain tumors Woodsman? Are you aware of my seizure capabilities and passing out? Are you aware of the additional health stuff? I may ramble and acknowledge I ramble because my father, Gary, Sonny and you state so yet in the end I do not roll my life to fit how another needs me to fit in their way of living…I just do my thing..I like what I do and I do what like….I could care less if no one even read my comments especially when they seem to be the ONLY comment from IM that ended up being used in a court setting with a man who could of easily told me he was going to be at the court room against me but every detail he said in that room was based on third party hearsay and he had nothing really but he went along with it and I accepted that—Now, I will keep popping on when I feel like sharing even if I was thrown tomatoes and told stay the hell off here—you are not even welcome nor fit in this here campfire and I also will keep coming HERE not OSHA or SAIT who gave up already CASE CLOSED and share ANY additional information as it comes and in 2016 I am going out of my way to interview and interview and interview and interview even if it exhausts me for 2016 I am making sure every freaking unturned stone is turned over-
That’s my new year resolution—-some here plan not to return here
and I accept that but I hope we all can remain the original family with all of us even you Woodsman because it is not an OBSESSION as you perceive but a fight that is worth staying in for—too many losses over time—it has to stop…
as far as my heart—don’t know if I will ever be able to share that openly and cannot even say I have even attempted but I do know I see things from a kid’s way of thinking—so from an innocent perspective I do come from…yet I know TOO MUCH on this here fire and to open up with heart—I do not know if I am even capable of it…heart wrenching some of these here MISSING ELEMENTS.
Woodsman–You have been there and done that. Joy forgot to say we both appreciate your comments and expertise that you contribute. Your experience and knowledge is worth three of mine and we know that your intentions are worthy. Joy is one of those if you stop for a ten minute burger espect it to be an hour. My son Ted was that way. He made friends with anyone at any time, maybe Joy and Ted had something to teach me==patience, something you need to read her blogs. I used to call Ted the Tortuga (turtle). Yet he was three times class president since he ran only three. Then he managed thousands of dollars for his Diving School out of Seattle Washington and would never forget the downtrodden when they were treated his equal even while he qualified for Mensis. There is so much to learn from men like yourself and we do much appreciate your input. Thank you and may your new year bring many blessing to you and yours.
First off- folks who are in my immediate know for Sure this statement from Sonny is off base
“Joy is one of those if you stop for a ten minute burger espect it to be an hour. ”
my reply: Sonny, before meeting you I would dine with a fellow neighbor ever so often and talked about normal things not the topics I have heard from your unique style way of living…AKA cookie cutter conversations I had- and it was not a ramble— it was not even small talk— and never was a hour unless a server was taking too long—or place was packed—
(except the small phase with govt’/celebs did entail 10 hours of many different eateries in one evening—called hotspotting/networking—)
Now YOU Sonny in my almost five years knowing you can spend in one week HOW MANY times in an establishment talking to fellow folks on aliens and other unique areas for HOW MANY HOURS? Oh okay— this comes from the same man who tells his family and others I am the avid one to IM yet he equally spends time here…I find it funny you think I am the one who can carry on yet you do too—you cannot lay out exempt on that one…you are just the same as me WHEN YOU WANT TO you can talk and ramble just as much…NOW FACTS. Both Joy and Sonny roll in this here life BEST every ten days in the society way of things….otherwise we keep to ourselves and family— Now, that is more facts. It depends on the company if I ramble…I feel at ease here at IM even if one says I am hard to decipher-(don’t pay others view of me much mind)–so I do not use PERIODS or COMMAS or normal lingo—tried a few times and I just choose to stay with me…I am not in any profession that requires such…I never knew an old school culinary ice artist who did care what others thought—and that’s how I roll—
Happy New Year Sonny…yet I am Joy…and if you think it’s not your way of doing…you know which trails to go—and roll—If you are in my life; great…if you are not; great. I don’t have the time to change life now to fit others desires…I just make sure I get the nutrition, vitamins, amino acids, minerals, heart exercise/circulation, massages, and keep certain docs/alcohol/smokes/etc far away from me and squeeze in once a month a Hershey with almond bar…I really encourage people to pass over since day one my comments or skim ’em but I come here because it is a free spot to express our perspectives and emotions…but Sonny you have your views but we are not in agreement in areas like how you PRESS ON on certain areas I have let it rest…leave Holly out of it..she is a fine lady. You floor me the bold ways of that tongue yet I am the only one from I M who was in court cored to comments here so someone was able to decipher it enough out there—
When I point a finger I usually have four coming back my way with a hand grenade. I stand corrected but then that is OK. I have the right to be wrong even if it I most of the time and unintentional, The truth is Joy is way superior in quick intelligence and smarts. I don’t mind admitting this, wish the Sair people and managers could do the same concerning the Yarnell tragedy.
Hey Sis Joy~
I admit I was one who thought OMG can’t she write something readable when I first began reading your posts. But I was edumacated as a writer, and I edited everything my daughter wrote from about second grade through graduate school. Thus, I always have had to write, firstly, for my “readers” and not for me. I do think it’s the responsibility of a writer to make it so the reader can easily understand what the writer is saying.
That being said, as I continued to read what you were writing, often from a cell-phone (hello!), I started realizing what you were trying to write was really important, even if you maybe did not know how to write it in the way I was trained and practiced in writing.
Seriously, I more and more would sit here at my iMac computer and read what you were writing, out loud, in order to comprehend the gyst of what you were saying. Because I realized that what you were/are saying is important.
Yeah, it would be cool if you could miraculously turn into a Better Writer™ for all of us here at IM. But that would be a waste of your time. You have more important things to do.
Just keep going after those interviews and photos and on-the-ground stories and hikes and helping folks make their homes more fire-wise and such, and taking care of yourself, and putting one foot in front of the other (as you have inspired me to keep doing, in spite of it all) now that it’s 2016, and if you ever need it, I promise I’ve got your back. Even though I suck at attending to my emails. Just as you suck (ha ha) at writing.
You rock!!!
Namaste.
Woodsman
I have been participating on this blog and others for 2 plus years. You honestly have never read my posts? Or was that an attempt to discredit me?
Either way.
My contributions to this thread are quite small, maybe even insignificant
I am the one who first (publicly) identified the GPS being carried by Robert Caldwell at the YHF. I still wonder if this GPS (or another) was used by the SAIT to draw the line that indicated the point and route of descent of the GMH.
I am also the one who noticed the pair of safety glasses being put into a work glove in the Mackenzie video that facilitated finding the proper order (chronologically) of the Mackenzie camera and phone. Also. I first (publicily) identified Andrew Ashcraft, and challenged Holly Neils assertion that a group of sawyers left the handline prior to the other hotshots, captured in the Mackenzie photos/video. Ashcraft is clearly seen sitting at the last photographed spot of the GM crew in Mackenzies photos/video.. This finding also calls into question the SAIRs finding that the crew left the black SZ at 1604. Were they using the incorrect time of the Mackenzie camera to determine departure time?
I have spent many hours studying this topic and other topics related. It is my choice to do this. I am not a blogger on any other topics.
I understand you leaving the conversation. I hope you do not get your ass kicked, or killed. As you suggested above.
Ayep to all the above, Calvin, and thank you for all of that.
NOT TO MENTION, however ….
You were the one who kept CONSTANTLY raising the question of What TF was going on with the DOZER??? A question whose answer we could not figure out.
Over and over and over again. You kept asking. We kept trying. And it would always lead to ……….. ????
Until late last spring when Joy handed us a document and a photo that were the two pieces we needed to uncover and fit together the Last Ditch Hail Mary Plan.
We still don’t know what, exactly, happened with the Dozer. And its operator.
But we know a heck of a lot more than we would have if you had not kept asking the question.
So Bravo to you, Calvin. Thank you and have a Happy New Year.
Namaste.
Reply to calvin post on January 1, 2016 at 5:38 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> My contributions to this thread are quite small, maybe even insignificant
Surely you jest, calvin.
See this longer ‘Reply’ up above where I ‘add to the list’ of things we would have probably never noticed in the EVIDENCE if not for you…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-321317
Well…I just got back from driving my dear wife all around the northern Cascades looking for something fun to do and I struck out. And now, I catch up on the thread and discover to my dismay that YOU people could not do the one simple thing I asked you to do in my absence….don’t act like me. Galloping around on my horse shooting from the hip and writing anything that pops into my head in is my shtick.
Now…Marti, I apologized to you and I expect you to have the necessary grace to accept my sincere apology like the ordained minister that you are. Forgiveness is holy…or something like that?
Matthew 18
15 “If your brother sins against you,[b] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[c] 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”
P.S., Listen to Otis…he fucking nailed it downstream, and he isn’t even an American!
Now…WTKTT! We DO need to work on your people skills. I used to say you are a DICK, but you have too much of a machine like quality to your arguments…so I’m afraid I am going to have to upgrade you to a DILDO! You are not human enough to be a DICK.
Joy – We definitively determined last year, or the year before, this is all starting to blend together in my head, that everyone with a Noms de guerre, pseudonym, pen name or alias would be referred to as a “Fred” because EN kept seeing Freds everywhere. Don’t you remember?
It seems to me that this latest brouhaha is mostly arguing whether the Blue Ridge Hotshots are the best hotshot crew in the nation or whether they just really didn’t do shit to earn their money on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And so of course I want to weigh in on this and I am going to base what I have to say on everything I have been saying for more than two years now.
1. The Blue Ridge Hotshots arrived at the fire later than someone expected them to. So what? That kind of stuff happens nonstop when Chaos is managing a wildfire for the first 36 to 48 hours.
Maybe longer on a dynamic fire that is exceeding everyone’s worst expectations and the threat and the response level is growing exponentially. Anyone who has ever driving from the Mongollon Ranger Station (home of the Blue Ridge Hotshots) which is out in the middle of nowhere, actually the Happy Jack Hotshot used to be in the middle of nowhere, and the Blue Ridge Hotshots are about 50 miles past that, to Camp Verde and back ass country Arizona byways and then to Prescott and then on down to Yarnell on Arizona Highway 89 following dog leg hair pin turns that would make a fighter pilot sick all in a convoy all based on somebody’s best guess of a best guess of a best guess for their ETA, which of course means ESTIMATED Time of Arrival, would understand that argument is a non starter.
And as to why that information wasn’t passed on to the fire to update their records…everybody had a lot more on their minds than that, it turned out to be important, but the 1 million other times it happened in the history of wildland firefighting it wasn’t, all things considered.
2. The Blue Ridge Hotshots did everything everybody expected them to do that day. That means they got a 100%, A+ rating. As we have said many times, hotshots are like the marines (smokejumpers are like the prima donnas of the opera world).
Hotshots are like cogs in a machine, nobody should expect cogs in the machine to be evacuating civilians. That is not what they are trained to do…it is above their pay grade. Evacuating civilians is the job of LAW ENFORCEMENT after they have been advised by the wildfire command staff when that should be done.
The how was up to the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office. If the sheriff’s office would have requested the assistance of fire personnel to help them and the Incident Commander would have decided that is a good idea and furthermore that using HOTSHOTS are the appropriate representatives to assign this task to, and that order then works its way down the chain of command and the hotshot crew boss buys into it, which I NEVER would have as a hotshot crew boss, so be it. Otherwise that is not something they should be engaged in.
Have you ever heard how much citizens can bitch their heads off when they are ordered to evacuate an area and then the threat doesn’t materialize to the extent the authorities expected it to. Or something else go WRONG with the evacuation. The Blue Ridge Hotshot were responsible for evacuating themselves only. They did that…end of story.
Would you want to be the GS-3 hotshot who got called onto the carpet to explain why they decided to initiate an evacuation of a town just because they were leaving to regroup? However much sense it makes to us in hindsight. It just doesn’t work that way nor should it. End of argument. I just don’t get what the fight is about.
The Blue Ridge Hotshots got to the fire in the best time they could, no hotshot crew ever dawdles going to a fire, except that one from R-5 who decided to lay around the pool in Phoenix and lick their nuts because their chase truck was broken down? The problem is…hotshots ALWAYS drive too fast to a fire. WTF…Over?
They got to the fire, they went to their assigned area, they went out to go to work, the fire was just about to overrun their position, and they left the area in a timely manner and went to regroup and await further orders from the commanders running the fucking fire. Absent that, yes, they got to stand around and wait for that to happen. Do you know what we always said? It all pays the same. In the meantime, follow the basic hotshot rules;
Never run when you can walk. Never walk when you can stand. Never stand when you can sit. Never sit when you can lay down. Never lay down when you can sleep, always eat whenever it if offered to you, you never know when it will be offered again, and fuck it, it all pays the same. Excuse me…I have to hurry up and wait while I go find a line to stand in. Who cares? Hotshots are not encouraged to think about shit like this. Hotshots get paid to;
a. Cut hand line and burn it out.
b. Cut hand line and back fire it.
c. Cut hand line and burn it out and back fire it.
3. News Flash…Hotshots are high performance wildland firefighters and risk takers. They (almost) always push the envelope. There is the right way, the way that Bob and RTS say it should be done, and of course they are 100% correct, that is the way it should be done all of the time. And then there is the real world. And then there is the real world on the Mighty Coconino, which has always had a hyper hotshot program on steroids. Every day when I was a hotshot crew boss I strived for perfection, and every day I failed.
And just for arguments here, the State Of Oregon has a bunch of anal retentive Oregonians who must have all been potty trained at gunpoint by their mothers when it comes to ATV safety riding rules and they don’t even require drivers or riders to wear helmets while operating side by sides in the Oregon Dunes or anywhere else in Orgeon. Side by sides have seat belts for one thing and roll bars. They are like driving a little Jeeps, except more fun. A hard hat will not do you any good in an ATV crash or rollover.
You need to have quality ATV helmet, ours cost about $500.00 and the best ones were closer to 1K. AND without avionics, which of course they do not have, it was far more important for the Frisby and Brown to be listening to their radios and listening for the cries of dying hotshots than wearing DOT approved helmets…lighten the fuck up!
And I swear by all of the fire gods and all things I consider holy…WTKTT/ Dildo, if you take one more fucking shot at Frisby or Brown I’m going to be really mad at you.
You got sick reading the autopsies reports…they experienced it and lived it. They saw it, they smelled it, they touched that horror that would have sent me to my knees and incapacitated me. Eric Tarr, Brian Frisby and True Brown and a bunch of other guys from that god forsaken and cursed fire are TRUE AMERICAN HEROES, and all of us, owe them the most respect we can possibly muster and we will owe it to them forever.
If they don’t want to talk about what happened on that god forsaken and cursed fire all they have to say is, I don’t want to talk about it. I am betting they live it again and again and again on far too many nights, and sometimes during the day. They have already given us far more than should ever be asked from anybody.
Gary, I completely accept your apology. Thank you!
And I apologize back in return. I did a bit more research. I think falling is different than burning, and you are right. And both are horrific.
Speaking of downstream. It has taken me about a day to read through most of it.
I think it was Woodsman who said that, in essence, nobody wants to talk here because nobody wants to be put under our microscope. Or magnifying glass (remember those ants?). I think that metaphor is absolutely perfect.
Even I don’t feel comfortable openly talking here, now. Which is where I kind of felt I was ending up with you.
I appreciate WTKTT’s insistence that we try, as best we can, to stick to “the evidence.” And that’s not always easy, given how messy and voluminous and hard-to-keep track of that “evidence” is. (Witness the on-going convoluted conversations regarding “The Trucks,” in which i had to overcome my pride, eat my words, and spend about three weeks (and counting — it’s still not done) re-writing my database and re-shuffling my narrative, and re-discovering a whole lot MORE questions, as a result).
And this is a hard format to do that in.
But “the evidence” is the only thing we all have in common. Everything else is personal.
But I have to admit, even I think WTKTT can go a bit overboard passionately beating upon dead (or almost-dead) horses, to the point where people start pounding back. I happen to agree with WTKTT regarding the “evidence” regarding BR, but I think his put-downs of them and hyperbole about their situation are way over the top. And that’s NOT HELPING. But that’s just my opinion.
I’m much more willing to agree to disagree. I don’t feel any need to change someone else’s mind. I am, however, always willing to have my mind changed. Sometimes my mind can become too wed to my narratives. That’s been one of the biggest lessons I have learned working on this. I’m still struggling with my “Chris’ Camera” narrative, that’s how wed I was (and proud of it) to it. (And there’s still the possibility that that narrative is actually still true).
And I didn’t mean to offend RTS when I “went off” down below regarding religion. So I’m sorry, RTS, if I did.
However, we have had some LONG conversations regarding the possible role a particular kind of “religion” may have had on the GMHS crew, including, even possibly on the Yarnell Fire, as a Human Factors issue.
If we’re gonna look at the “culture” of the GMHS. and even the Prescott Fire Department, I think it is not unjustified to include “religion” in that culture. And I think an offshoot of that “religion” is still playing itself out in the hagiography of the Mythical Granite Mountain Hotshots. Which, I think, includes what’s going on with the “Memorial Site,” or should I say “Shrine.”
I don’t care what anybody’s religion is. Mine is a mix of all kinds of things. It’s just a worldview which shapes the way I live my life, which is actually the anthropological definition of “religion.”
And, as long as I’m talking to people who have said they’ve left, I just want to say to Bob Powers how much I appreciate what you wrote about “Trigger Points.” That was really eye-opening to me, given how much everybody talked about “Trigger Points’ on this fire, and how uncomfortable I felt about that, but it was just a vague feeling and I didn’t know why. You really helped me with that.
And, along that line, when we discuss “warnings” regarding the Youth Camp area, Gary Cordes sent word to “his crews” (ordered?) at about 3:50 PM that it was time for them to prepare to evacuate. Apparently some of them seem to have either not gotten that word, or not taken it seriously.
I still believe anger is rooted in fear. What are we, personally and collectively, so afraid of that we get so angry with each other these days?
I”ve been asking myself that a lot. I think the angriest I’ve gotten (well, excluding how angry I got w/EN and that was mostly just out of exasperation) was in our argument, Gary. I have periodically felt angry with you for your assumption that you know more about me than you do. I don’t like being projected upon. I think my fear in that is being objectified. I’m my own person, not yours, or a figment of your imagination. I’ve had to fight for my own voice all my life.
Other than that, I really haven’t felt that much anger during this enterprise, at anybody here. My anger is towards the Powers That Be and all the etceteras that go with that.
I think what has been depressing me is seeing all the anger flying around between people I basically like working with, with all our various brilliances and foibles, gifts and liabilities, prides and prejudices.
What are you/we/all of us so afraid of? What is WITH that??
Namaste, y’all. Seriously.
Addendum.
When I said:
“But “the evidence” is the only thing we all have in common. Everything else is personal.”
I should have added to it. I don’t discount the “everything else” that is “personal.” That is what each of us uniquely brings to this, as we sift through “the evidence.” Those are the gifts we bring. They are VERY important.
ANd they’re the major source of disagreement. That’s a matter of course. It’s just the way it is.
When we disagree on this “personal” “everything else,” I think we need to do it with mutual respect and kindness, not put-downs and insults and such. We NEED each others differences. That’s the richness of this enterprise. That’s what I have loved about this, and learned so much from.
When someone says “Ouch” we need to respect that and back off. There’s probably a reason for that “Ouch” somewhere.
Either that, or we’re going to become a conversation of one.
I beg to disagree with you Gary on one point. I think Otis is about as true blood American as you could find and would be welcome in my house as such any time and I am about as Irish as you can find.
I will admit to disagree with Gary from my vantage point makes me look like Don Quijote tilting against windmills–that is when it comes to investigations and wild land fire fighting wisdom. Well I did have to good fortune to be married to one Linda Evans right out of Norfolk England if I spelled that right. I think she was the forth of my six wives and I have to say probably the best of all. Damn and I am Irish. Sometimes I say I am half black because my mothers maiden name was Black. She had some English in her and being a true Texan and with some great great grand uncle that died in the Alamo would not even attend my wedding to the first wife whom was Mexican. The Pancho Villa relatives did not mind and I have three fine kids all very smart–college degrees and doing well as good cookie cutter citizens. Isn”t life grand. Well I use the Alias “Sonny” instead of my real name Tex because I was born in Nevada and not really a Texan as the family wanted me to be. So the world is not always as it appears, and we know this Yarnell fire is the same.
I agree with you about Otis Sonny. And I think Otis knows how much I appreciate his participation in this thread and that my comment was just another one of my stupid off humor jokes. And yes, I would welcome Otis to the shores of this great nation and former colony of the Crown anytime he care to grace us with his presence. After all…aren’t we all part of the United Kingdom at heart, which of course always will be our closest ally and friend.
Gary says for the hot shot work you:
a. Cut hand line and burn it out.
b. Cut hand line and back fire it.
c. Cut hand line and burn it out and back fire it
Now I understand reason they were back firing or burning out just above the Shrine. I do not understand yet why that U Tube video we saw in July after the fire was deleted. Now I am also of a mind that someone was backfiring below the Helms and on the north boundary of Glen Isla. That dozer was there cutting line and more than likely some back firing was going on too. That is why we want some honest sharing from people that witnessed or knew about this.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on December 29, 2015 at 12:32 pm
>> Joy A. Collura asked…
>>
>> any additional information WWTKTT on Holly’s earlier this year article
>> about Marsh being at Helm’s—any proof or documents or source come out of that?
None that I am aware of.
As you yourself know… Holly Neill ended up spending some time there in Yarnell ( and staying at the Boulder Springs Ranch itself, I believe ) and “looking for evidence” there near the compound itself.
Before Bill Gabbert chose to WIPE OUT all the PUBLIC comments on his article that contained that softball interview with Brendan McDonough… Holly Neill talked about finding ‘saw cuts’ there near the BSR compound itself on this “research stay” of hers at the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Some people ( myself included ) pointed out that these could have easily just been the saw work of FFs who already testified to ADOSH that on the day following the fire… they were assigned to ‘improve’ the dozer push out to the deployment site.
Holly Neill acknowledged that as an obvious possibility… but whether she ever tries to claim that any of this ‘evidence’ she was finding near the compound is some kind of PROOF that Eric Marsh was there ( with some sawyers, as she seems to still believe )… we don’t know.
There’s no telling WHERE any/all of this ‘extensive research’ Ms. Neill says she has always been doing will ever see the light of day.
John MacLean’s book? Her own ‘Safety Matters’ BLOG? Her own book?
Who knows.
Bottom line is that ( as far as I know ) there is still NO proof that Eric Marsh was ever actually out ‘ahead’ of those men other than the last thing Bendan McDonough had to say in that vague softball interview with Bill Gabbert over at ‘Wildfire Today’.
Brendan DID say ( in no uncertain terms ) that he DID hear ( over the GM Crew Net ) that Marsh was “scouting ahead” of Jesse and the crew prior to them having to deploy.
Bill Gabbert didn’t even have the good sense to try to nail Brendan down on a TIME with regards to when he heard that… so it remains no real proof of how FAR Eric Marsh might have been “out ahead of them”.
>> Joy A. Collura also asked…
>>
>> If Marsh was at Helm’s — what time did he end up with the men?
The only thing that seems certain is that Eric Marsh did NOT appear to be with them at 1639 ( 4:39 PM ) when Jesse Steed finally got around to making his first psudeo-MAYDAY call… and that about 2 minutes then transpired before Eric Marsh suddenly appears on the radio at that same location.
So wherever Marsh was at 1639 ( 4:39 PM )… it’s pretty much a given that it could have only possibly been ( at a maximum ) about a 2 minute full-tilt-boogey RUN ( through dense, maze-like manzanita ) away from the deployment site.
It is ALSO still possible that Marsh WAS already WITH those men when Jesse made his first psuedo-MAYDAY call at 1639 ( 4:39 PM ).
Marsh *might* have already been there and directing the “burning out around ourselves” operation and had just TOLD Steed ( and eventually Caldwell ) to get on the radio and talk to “Bravo 33”.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> That article back then haunted me to this day—needs more resources and knowledge
I’m beginning to wonder if even John Maclean will ever get around to publishing HIS version of events ( based on Holly Neill’s research? ).
Maybe even he isn’t even going to bother.
**
** MORE THAN ONE BLUE RIDGE HOTSHOT DROVE THE GM CHASE TRUCK
** AND HAD FULL ACCESS TO THE GM CREW-NET RADIO.
The poster known as ‘Robert the Second’ ( RTS ) recently proposed that there was some kind of ‘evidence’ that the Blue Ridge Hotshots were somehow directly involved with ‘saving citizens lives’ that afternoon in Yarnell.
I pointed out that the official public record contains NO such evidence of anything like that, and RTS then admitted that he was just basing that on some things he had heard through this mysterious ‘grapevine’ that he has access to. He produced a few psuedo-quotes ( from memory ), only one of which had anything to do with ‘citizens’… and then also refused to provide any more detail such as WHERE this ‘interaction with citizens’ might have even taken place that afternoon.
In the course of checking the actual (signed) Blue Ridge Unit logs looking for ANYTHING that might resemble what RTS was only now saying he ‘heard’… ( I found nothing )… I came across something I had not noticed before in these Unit Logs.
( Which is just more proof, as I have always said, that the evidence ALWAYS deserves more ‘going over’ because you never know what might ‘pop out’ that might have been missed ).
We KNOW that BR Captain Trueheart Brown was the one who FIRST drove the GM ‘Chase’ Truck down from where it had been parked that morning to the point south of there where the GM and Blue Ridge Crew Carriers were parked. He drove the GM ‘Chase’ truck down from there and Brendan McDonough drove the GM Superintendent truck down.
Trueheart Brown SAYS he did this in his own ( typed and signed ) Unit Log…
This is also the TESTIMONY from Trueheart Brown that WHILE he was DRIVING the GM ‘Chase’ truck, not only did he have full access to the GM CREW NET frequency ( the priority channel in the truck’s onboard radio ) and was LISTENING to it…. Trueheart Brown also USED that radio and that CREW NET frequency to have an extended conversation with Marsh/Steed.
From Trueheart Brown’s typed ( and signed ) Unit Log…
————————————————————–
I jump in their ( GM’s ) Chase truck and the GM lookout and we pick up our guys in their buggies who fall into the convoy. I then get confirmation that OUR ( Blue Ridge’s ) trucks are at the Youth Camp from ( xxxxxx Redacted ). At this time I jump on THEIR CREW RADIO and talk with ( xxxxx Redacted. Marsh? Steed? ) about where we are taking the buggies and the situation down here. I explain about what we are doing and what the fire behavior is doing. (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted ). I also reiterate that we are going to keep their lookout with us until we tie in with them later. I explain that we will keep their rigs with us, too, because things are very dynamic now and ( xxxx Short Redaction. Most likely ‘Eric’ ) mentions that they are trying to come down off the hill, he mentions traveling through the black. I also get positive confirmation that ( xxxx Again… a very short 4 letter Redaction that must be ‘Eric’ ) understands where the trucks will be parked because he can see the trucks driving out and I orient him to the rocky area north along the dozer line ( end of shrine rd) that we are taking them to. We drive around to the youth camp and park their rigs with ours. We then get positive conformation that the area that the Granite Mountain trucks were just in was burned, from ( xxxxx short 4-5 character redaction that could be ‘Eric’ or ‘Jesse’ ) via the radio. I jump back in the ranger and ( xxxx short redaction most likely ‘Brian’ ) and I drive back up via the dozer line to the main two track we pass ( xxxx short redaction ) and then we head west towards the fire to see exactly what the situation is. I have the drivers get geared up to assist the rest of the crew.
————————————————————–
So that’s a LONG conversation that Brown appeared to be having with Eric Marsh WHILE he was in the process of leading that vehicle convoy OUT of the Sesame area, through Glen Ilah, north on Highway 89, then west on Shrine Road to the Youth Camp.
And he says he was using THEIR CREW RADIO for this conversation.
Since the GM Crew-net was the priority channel in the truck he was driving… one has to assume this long conversation was taking place on the GM Intra-Crew frequency itself.
There’s also no background radio captures on any TAC channel that includes ANY of this LONG conversation between Brown and Marsh so that would seem to more proof that conversation was taking place on the GM Crew-Net frequency.
We KNOW that Brown himself was one of the three ‘drivers’ that was helping to move the GM vehicles over to the Youth Camp.The other TWO were ( according to Brown himself ) simply the last two guys on the west end of the Blue Ridge line as they were ‘spread out’ there on the Cutover Trail.
Brown says he just “grabbed the last two guys” on his way out to the Sesame Area to begin humping the GM trucks around.
However… all that being said…
Captain Trueheart Brown was NOT the one who would drive the GM ‘Chase’ truck AWAY from the Youth Camp when it came time to “Bump out WITH URGENCY” ( as the Blue Ridge logs say ).
There was ANOTHER BLUE RIDGE HOTSHOT who then became at least the FOURTH BR Hotshot to now have full access to whatever was transpiring on the GM Crew-Net radio frequency.
From one of the other (unnamed) Blue Ridge Unit Logs
( not Frisby’s or Brown’s or Ball’s or Fuller’s )…
——————————————————————————-
Immediately after tieing in with them we receive instructions to head in ( on the dozer line ) and tie in with the rest of our crew. We begin hiking in but only get about 40 yards from vehicles when we received the order to RTO ( Reverse tool order ) and head back to the trucks. Everyone JUMPS in a vehicle and prepares to bump out. I am in Granite Mountain’s Chase truck, ready for the call to bump out. At this point fire is getting VERY close and is moving FAST, the sky all around us is DARK and we can hear the fire’s fury. The rest of the crew arrives at the vehicles and loads up QUICKLY. As soon as they are all loaded up I get the call to bump out WITH URGENCY. I began leading the convoy out.
——————————————————————————-
Key phrase(s)…
“Everyone JUMPS in a vehicle”
“I am in Granite Mountain’s Chase truck”
“I get the call to bump out WITH URGENCY”
“I began leading the convoy out”
So whoever THIS Blue Ridge Hotshot is… HE ( and NOT Trueheart Brown ) became the one actually driving the GM ‘Chase truck’ out of the Youth Camp and all the way to the Ranch House Restaurant.
According to the other Blue Ridge Unit logs… the DRIVERS used for the GM
vehicles as they were bumping out ( WITH URGENCY ) were the same ones
used just minutes earlier to move them around from the Sesame Clearing
to the Youth Camp.
So that seems to indicate the following…
1. BR Assistant Superintendent Trueheart Brown was the one driving the GM ‘Chase’ truck down from where it was parked that morning to where the Blue Ridge and GM Carriers were parked, farther south in the Sesame Clearing area.
2. WHILE Trueheart Brown was driving the GM ‘Chase’ truck was when he had that long conversation with Marsh and/or Steed about what was taking place and what the the fire was doing “down there” at that time… and he had this conversation with them using the ONBOARD CREW RADIO and ( it seems ) over the actual GM CREW NET frequency.
3. When McDonough ( driving the GM Supt. Truck ) and Trueheart Brown ( driving the GM ‘Chase’ Truck ) reached everyone else there where all the Carriers were parked… Trueheart Brown then appears to have REMAINED in the GM ‘Chase’ truck and was, in fact, the driver of it for that ‘hump’ all the way south through Glen Ilah, north on Highway 89, and then northwest on Shrine Road out to the ‘Youth Camp’.
4. When Brown arrived at the Youth Camp and got OUT of the GM ‘Chase’ truck.. someone ( Frisby? ) had already arrived there with the Polaris UTV Ranger and Brown then got BACK in the UTV and started ‘bombing around’ again with Brian Frisby. They headed back out onto the ‘Cutover Trail’ with the UTV Ranger.
But that was it for ‘Trueheart Brown’ and ‘driving the GM Chase truck’.
5. Some OTHER Blue Ridge Hotshot ( not Brown ) would then be the one to “jump in the GM Chase truck” after never even getting more than 40 yards away from the vehicles at the Youth Camp before being ordered to RTO / bumpout WITH URGENCY.
6. This same OTHER Blue Ridge Hotshot would then be the one driving the GM Chase Truck all the way down to the Ranch House Restaurant ( as per his own Unit Log ).
So that now makes FOUR Blue Ridge Hotshots who, by the very act of being inside THREE different GM vehicles that afternoon had FULL access to the GM CREW NET radio frequency, which was the priority channel for ALL the GM vehicle onboard radios.
Brendan McDonough was always driving the GM Supt. Truck and there is no evidence he ever even got out of it from the time he was dropped off by Frisby where it was until he parked it at the Ranch House Restaurant some 1 full HOUR after that.
So that still remains a full HOUR of time when Brendan had nothing to do at all but listen
to whatever radio traffic was on the GM Crew Net from about 3:45 PM to 4:45 PM.
It’s also worth noting that this NEW ‘Unit Log’ entry which proves a FOURTH Blue Ridge Hotshot could have easily heard radio traffic on the GM CREW NET is also one of the most heavily REDACTED Blue Ridge Unit logs.
It’s still VERY important to know what ANY of these Blue Ridge Hotshots who had easy access to the GM CREW NET radio frequency that afternoon might have ‘heard’ transpiring on that radio frequency.
One day… we WILL find out what they heard… if anything.
Either via unredacted copies of their own Unit Logs… or by them just finally opening up about it all and TELLING us what is beneath ALL of those heavy redactions in their (signed) Unit Logs… and then some.
Followup…
The following OTHER blurb from a Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit Log is related to the post above and seems proves 2 more things…
1. Trueheart Brown really was NOT the BR Hotshot who drove the GM Chase Truck away from the Youth Camp. The next time Brown got in the GM Chase truck was shortly after arriving at the Ranch House Restaurant with Frisby in the BR Polaris UTV Ranger and only then does he say he ‘jumped BACK in’ the GM Chase truck to specifically start using the onboard GM CREW-NET radio frequency to try and contact GM.
2. As I have been saying from day one… the GM Crew-Net really was the priority channel for the GM vehicles and all you had to do was turn the key to start hearing whatever is transpiring over the GM Crew Net. That’s what Brown himself describes in his Unit Log.
From Blue Ridge Assistant Superintendent ( Caption ) Trueheart Brown’s
typed and signed Unit Log…
————————————————————————————-
Radio traffic is overheard on A/G or TAC about Granite Mountain IHC needing to deploy shelters and they were in the process of cutting deployment site and trying to burn out around it. No other radio traffic is heard from Granite Mountain over TAC or A/G. We arrive at the Ranch House Restaurant staging area and I jump in Granite Mountain’s chase rig and try to listen to listen on their crew channel and all I hear is a keyed mic. I try to raise them but with no success. I tell ( xxxxxxxxx ) to sit in the truck and monitor their crew channel for any traffic.
————————————————————————————–
So Brown himself says he just “jumped in the GM Chase truck” and he was immediately able to hear if anything was transpiring over the GM CREW NET radio frequency.
He does say he heard a “keyed mic” over that channel and this would have been DURING the burnover itself out in the box canyon.
He then also says he “tried to raise them” over their own GM CREW NET, but got no response.
Then he instructs some other Blue Ridge Hotshot ( name still unknown ) to just sit in the vehicle and listen for ANY possible traffic over the GM CREW NET.
So this is all just more proof that it is highly unlikely any of the Blue Ridge Hotshots who were driving any of the GM vehicles ever just reached down and ‘fiddled’ with another Crew’s radios while they were drving this other crew’s vehicles.
The radios most likely were ALL set to just ‘come on’ when the key was turned and were already set to receive/transmit on the GM CREW NET channel as the ‘priority’ channel.
Again… making it all the more likely that no less than FOUR ( instead of just THREE, as previously thought ) Blue Ridge Hotshots probably heard a LOT of radio traffic that was transpiring over that GM CREW NET frequency between about 3:45 PM and 4:45 PM.
Maybe even ALL of it.
Once again excellent discovery work by WTKTT. There was one blue ridge guy that picked up Pearl, elderly lady that was wandering through the smoke. It was happenstance and I think he was going to check on the dozer operator at the time.
Sonny… I ‘Replied’ to this with a longer post up above… which is HERE…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-321416
And this comment just appeared over on the other IM article about the autopsy reports.
Even people who have no been ‘following along’ are easily putting ‘two and two’; together all on their own…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/after-years-of-delay-the-granite-mountain-hotshot-autopsy-records-are-released-to-the-public/#comment-320232
————————————————————————–
On December 22, 2015 at 9:44 am, Bdelong said…
In the search for answers, it would be interesting to speak with the Blue Ridge Hot Shots as Blue Ridge relocated GM’s crew carriers to a different location during the burnover. Surely there was crew channel radio traffic (between Marsh & Steed) that hasn’t been published or heard by everyone else working the fire. All crews have internal communication channels and surely Blue Ridge heard something when moving those crew carriers? Just a thought…
—————————————————————————
Yes WTKTT, Holley seems a little sneaky at times. Joy confronted her on that account and when I was living in my Jeep up in Montana she forgot to tell Dr. Ted Putnam I was there even though Joy had informed her. Well I know I am not that important but Ted said he would have appreciated it if I had gone with him to Mann Gulch. We are friends and I would have appreciated it more than Ted since how often do you get to hike with a man of his caliber? Well I can understand how people forget a common fellow like myself so I am smiling right now that I even mention this.
Funny how people try to cover yet are exposed. Be true or be screwed on your integrity I observe.
WTKTT You still don’t get it This Blog is done.
Adios M F and that dose not mean MY FRIEND
Enjoy this Blog and all your one sided opinions Its time to close the Book.
I am not handling my recent loss well.
Bob Powers, after all this time and all we shared…I think if you state you are not coming here…I am not a follower yet I will stand by your side and as well do the same to show my respect…
I respect you.
Friends do not lead or follow or tell another this is what it is…
we lift another best we can
This is my last post too until I see Bob Powers writing here once again.
I am not SIDING with anyone but I strongly stand by Bob’s side to stay away and Bob, I will post interviews on Sitta’s bootcamp—and the photos too.
I am sorry to finally make time to read some posts—just to read bologna
you ever come back Bob—let me know—otherwise have a good 2016 y’all
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 30, 2015 at 4:58 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Well you finally admitted you do not have the real story
I never said I did. I have only been pointing out to YOU ( because you seem to just continually keep forgetting ) what the actual evidence record actually says.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> but you keep pushing your side and I keep pushing mine.
The only SIDE I am pushing is let’s stick to what is actually IN the evidence record and not fall subject to people like you and RTS seeming to ‘forget’ what is or isn’t there ( in the evidence record ).
On December 25, 2015 at 3:29 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
———————————————————————————————
Brian Frisby and tHe BRHS are one of the most competent HS in the nation as far as I’m concerned. They were instrumental in providing the needed leadership that day as well as saving citizens’ lives that day.
———————————————————————————————-
The first part of that RTS statement is obviously just pure opinion ( and he acknowledges that in the statement itself ).. but the second part has him trying to establish some FACTS that are NOT supported by any evidence.
I think that has been settled.
Despite RTS falling back on just some hearsay that he says he heard someone say to someone and then some someone told him… there is no VERIFIABLE evidence ( available to US ) to support RTS’s statement that Blue Ridge was, in any way, directly responsible for ‘saving citizens lives’ that day.
They saved THEMSELVES… and ( as I have always said )… I am damn glad they did.
They had the good sense to come RUNNING off that Cutover Trail instead of just ‘strolling along’, which they did NOT have time for.
As for what the whole discussion then ‘morphed’ into regarding ‘how close is close’…
You already said ( three times below ) that Blue Ridge’s exit from the Cutover Trail COULD be construed as a ‘close-call’… just not as close as the other guys in Harper Canyon.
Bob Powers says
On December 29, 2015 at 9:00 am, Bob Powers said…
—————————————————————————————-
While they cut it close they still had more time to spar than some of the other Eng.crews.
This was not as close a call as you are making it out to be for BR.
They were close but actually ahead of the power curve.
That is why they were never mentioned in the investigation and never in a position of entrapment.
That’s my professional opinion based on 33 years of Fire experience.
——————————————————————————————
“They cut it close…”
“…not AS close a call ( but still in the ‘close’ category )”
“They were close…”
Soo… even YOU are convinced “it was close”, just nothing that deserved a workplace citation as was issued for the OTHER group of FFs that came “Running like HELL” out of the woods out in that location.
So where is the disagreement?
I don’t recall having EVER said that the Blue Ridge situation SHOULD have become the FIFTH ‘close-call’ workplace safety citation issued by ADOSH for Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Not my call to make.
ADOSH was never able to interview ANY Blue Ridge crew members and get their own take on the situation as they were able to do with the other FFs that also came “Running like HELL” out of the same area at right around the same time.
( By the way… you are, in fact, WAY OFF on your ‘timing’ as described to calvin somewhere below… but that’s for another post ).
Please re-read the ACTUAL Blue Ridge Unit logs… which ADOSH didn’t even HAVE until just prior to the timeline for their investigation coming to an end and their report already drafted.
Those Unit Logs DO suggest that Blue Ridge had ( as you also suggest ) their own ‘lookout’.
He remains ‘unnamed’ but was ( supposedly ) up on some ‘rock’ somewhere ( also not made clear ).
But even that ‘supposed’ lookout ( like the other THREE that were in place… Matt Keehner,
Sun City Crew at the Prescott Mining Company, and Gary Cordes out on Highway 89 ) gave
absolutely no WARNING to anyone.
It wasn’t until Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown just got a ‘feeling’ they should take the Polaris Ranger north in the Sesame Clearing area to ( in Brown’s Unit Log words ) “see how much time we really had” that they accidentally discovered they were ALREADY “out of time”… and then the order was immediately radioed back to the crews on the Cutover Trail to RTO and get back to buggies ASAP.
In other words… Frisby and Brown had to jump in with the RTO order because whoever was the lookout was NOT even seeing what they could now see… that they were all about to be in deep shit and it was time to “get the hell out of there”.
So if not for that ‘accidental sighting’ by Frisby and Brown… how long would it have taken their OWN lookout to reach the same conclusion if, as he was, apparently unable to actually SEE the actual fireline well enough from wherever he was? Another 1 minute? 2 minutes? 5 minutes? 10 minutes?
I won’t go any higher on the minutes estimate because if those men had only been told to RTO and evacuate upwards of 10 minutes after it did happen that day… then there was a VERY real chance that their half-mile escape route back to the Youth Camp could have already been compromised and they would have had to take their chance with their already-decided-on second ‘plan’… Haul ass WEST back out to the grassy Sesame Clearing, burn-out there, and deploy.
I am not making this all up ( the way it seems to have ACTUALLY gone down ).
It’s all there in the ( signed ) Blue Ridge Unit logs.
The only part missing now is what both you and I still don’t know.
How did this CREW feel about these circumstances and the timing of it all?
How ‘close’ of a ‘close-call’ did THEY consider it to be?
Something they’ll be telling their grandchildren ( since they DID have the good sense
to stay alive that day )… or what?
If you can get them to talk… ask them to talk about THIS part of the day.
If what is already there in the evidence record really IS, somehow, wrong… then tell these boys to pull up their shorts and CORRECT the public record once and for all.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> So maybe we could get back to civil and you could look at my information instead
>> of denying it as it is not any different from your information we neither one have any
>> facts fro the Crew. But I also have facts that you ignore to promote your story..
If we both agree that the exit from the Cutover Trail was ‘close’… then what FACTS am I ignoring? I am AGREEING with you. I think it was a little ‘closer’ than you do but ‘close’ is ‘close’ and still a situation that can contain “lessons learned”.
But regardless.. there ARE at least what need to be considered SOME FACTS ‘from the Crew’, unless they want to go public and CORRECT any of it.
Their ( signed ) testimony in their own Blue Ridge Unit logs… which you keep saying you have read but I’m continually ‘not sure’ you actually have.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Your statements are Challenging the BR Crew in a negative fission
If we are ONLY now talking ( as you seem to be locked into ) this “how close was close” thing… then YOU, yourself said it falls into the ‘close’ category.
See your own statement(s) above.
In that regard… I don’t think EITHER one of us is ‘Challenging the BR Crew in a negative fission’.
What happened is what happened… as far as the available evidence goes.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I am telling you if you were face to face with them you would be in deep shit
>> I have seen fist fights start with a whole lot less, and they would still tell you nothing.
You fire guys slay me. You really do.
Was that some kind of veiled and/or relayed THREAT?
ADVICE: Please don’t respond to that either way on this PUBLIC forum. That’s never a good idea.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You are going about your tree shaking wrong and you are causing some serious
>> fractures in this as has been said Camp Fire group.
Serious fractures? What… just because I called RTS out on something HE said and now you’re pissed I upset your friend who pisses the same color green?
Give me a break.
I already said this… Both YOU and RTS are TREES, Bob.
We KNOW that you KNOW things…. and the two of you have gone out of your WAY to make SURE the rest of us here KNOW that you KNOW things you can’t talk about for your own self-assigned reasons.
Soo… just “shakin’ the trees” here, Bob ( which was YOUR own idea ).
I thank you once again for your response to my ‘tree shaking’ down below when I asked you to remind us all WHY you won’t say more about this ‘secret contact’ you had over the video.
I DO believe we now ( finally ) know all you know about that… so thanks for letting some things fall out of THAT important TREE.
I’m just sorry you don’t know more or didn’t know how to pursue it and FIND OUT more.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> What your saying will not change my mind and what I am saying will not change yours.
My ‘mind’ can be changed in a hearbeat… with more VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE and not just some more ‘hearsay from the grapevine’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> RTS will not answer or talk to you any more
I’m heartbroken.
RTS has NEVER needed to ‘talk to me’.
RTS is here for his OWN reasons… and I hope he doesn’t pick up his toys and go home.
MOST of the time… he has relevant and interesting things to say.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> so I think its time to Back up and start over.
>>
>> Your attack on the BR crew will not be tolerated by me or RTS.
God… you are DENSE… aren’t you?
I am NOT ATTACKING your precious little hookum-skookum best damned Hotshots in the Wild West Blue Ridge boys.
I am pointing out to both YOU and your buddy RTS what is ALREADY in the EVIDENCE RECORD.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Find a different approach.
Like what?… something like “IGNORE what is ALREADY in the EVIDENCE RECORD”?
Sorry. Can’t do it.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I did not make my self clear on the Gag order.
>>
>> ( Insert more ‘past experience’ stuff )
You are still only going on and on about ‘past experiences’ and what you THINK might have happened with regards to the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
All fascinating reading… but ( speaking only for myself but *probably* others ) I no longer CARE what happened on OTHER FIRES or in the distant past.
NONE of what you have said helps us determine if there really IS some official, legal gag-order in effect for ANYONE on the Yarnell Hill Fire… or WHO might have ORDERED it and what FORM it may have taken.
If someone TOLD someone ( anyone ) to “keep your mouths shut or else”…
…I ( and others ) want NAMES… TIMES… DATES… PLACES… and ‘documents’, if they exist.
Go back to your ‘grapevine’ ( converse with RTS and use HIS… if that’s all you’ve ever been doing ) and ask ‘the grapevine’ this…
If the entire complement of Blue Ridge Hotshots ( seasonals included ) was ORDERED to “keep their mouths shut”… then WHEN did this happen?
In that classroom at the Peeples Valley Middle school when they were all asked to sit in the kiddie desks and write their initial Unit Logs?
If so… WHO ‘gave the order’. Just Frisby himself… or whoever was ‘collecting’ the Unit Logs?
I want a NAME.
If it happened AFTER that… then it must have been ‘conveyed’ to the entire crew somehow, somewhere. WHERE was that? Was there now some EMAIL that Frisby was ‘reading to the crew’ or was this just Frisby himself passing along either some VERBAL relay ( from who? again… I want a NAME )… or did Frisby himself just make this up himself because it’s what HE wanted?
( Continued next Reply )
( Continued from previous Reply )
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> So I am saying lets burry the hatchet here and try to understand what each
>> of us are saying and fined neutral ground.
I can’t say anything else other than what I have already said a few times already to convince you I am NOT ‘attacking’ your precious little Blue Ridge boys… if that is what you think.
If that’s what you think I am doing by just pointing out what is ALREADY in the evidence record, and also pointing out all the obvious QUESTIONS that still need to be answered regarding their experiences at the Yarnell Hill Fire… ( Why were they SO LATE?, What communications did they hear that we still don’t know about, etc, etc. )
…then you are now ‘the wall’ and there’s no use dulling any drillbits on it.
The many QUESTIONS that still need to be answered by Blue Ridge personnel are NOT ATTACKS… they are just QUESTIONS that deserve answers.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If we can not get back to that neutral ground this experiment is over.
No one person started it. No one person can end it. That’s how this works.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You would have a hard time with out our Fire background and we would be
>> hard pressed with out your and others input and research.
Let’s not kid ourselves, Mr. Powers.
Your contributions have been helpful… as have mine… and ditto for RTS and his
‘grapevine’ that we only get to see a little of… but NONE of us is ‘irreplaceable’.
This ‘National Historic Tragedy’ will continue to be researched. analyzed and looked at whether any one currently posting here continues to do so, or not.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> As Gary said although wrong color. Forest Service lifers bleed green start
>> cutting to deep and we get defensive.
And what the fuck is ‘cutting too deep’ supposed to mean?
Don’t dare to disagree with anyone else who pisses the same color I do, or you then get a full blown multiple-source ‘green stream’?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You have seen that with severial FS people who have been on here or still are.
Yes… and like I’ve said before… you fire people slay me. You really do.
If ‘cut too deep’ really does mean ‘don’t disagree’… keep your band-aids handy while we continue to “shake some trees” here.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Rest for now .your turn.
Back atcha.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 30, 2015 at 8:34 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I explained the Gag Order down below.
The only thing you explained (below) was what you THINK took place.
The DISCUSSION down below where you chimed in with your “this is the way it is, people” explanation(s) was simply about whether any such gag-order really DOES exist.
Gary Olson says HE has heard ( on HIS ‘grapevine’ ) that it does NOT… and NEVER did.
That issue remains unresolved, despite your lengthy “this is how it is” assumptions.
There is still no PROOF that anyone involved with this Yarnell incident has EVER been under ANY kind of legal gag-order.
We are still just waiting to see if that proof surfaces.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> If some BR Crewman are no longer employed by the FS they are free to say what they
>> want if they want here or any place else.
Correct. So let them pull up their big-boy shorts and DO that.
There have been MANY shake-ups and turnovers in the Blue Ridge roster since the tragedy.
Trueheart Brown left Blue Ridge but is still an AFMO for USFS down in southern Arizona.
Cory Ball ( the DOZB/HEQB from Yarnell ) is now Brian Frisby’s Assistant Superintendent.
Ronald Gamble LEFT Blue Ridge ( and USFS ) shortly after the tragedy and now comes to
work every day and sits in the same fucking office that Eric Marsh once occupied.
How’s that for irony? ( Someone still needs to just walk over there and interview him ).
It is VERY likely that MANY of that crew ( seasonals in 2013 ) no longer work for USFS.
So let them come forward.
TELL them ( if you can ) to come forward and “tell their own stories” about their involvement in what will forever remain a National Tragedy… as the First Amendment allows them to do.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They have been talking within the grape vine as RTS and I can attest to .
And THAT is why the two of you are simply a ‘tree’ that ALSO needs to be SHAKED, as we are doing right now… and as YOU suggested we all do.
Yes, Bob… the first QUOTE below about “Let’s shake the tree and see what falls out” is YOURS…
On December 16, 2015 at 1:58 pm, Bob Powers said…
I guess we keep shaking the tree till everything falls out..
On December 16, 2015 at 6:21 pm, Gary Olson said…
I agree with Bob Powers that we should keep shaking the tree until everything falls out, one way or the other.
On December 29, 2015 at 11:08 am, Norb Szczurek says
It’s important that we keep shaking the tree to see what else falls out.
On December 18, 2015 at 12:52 am, WantsToKnowTheTruth said…
The tree IS ‘shaking’ a little (lately)… and some things ARE ‘falling out’. Let’s keep at it.
Etc…. etc…
Complete agreement ( with YOUR suggestion, Bob ) that ‘shaking some trees’ is the next best thing to do.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> More RTS because he is still going on Fires and Meeting those that were on
>> the Yarnell Hill Fire. You all want the Who which neither of us will give up until
>> the who speaks up. We are giving them that.
Yes. BOTH YOU and RTS are known ‘TREES’ that need to be shaked BECAUSE of all this talk of ‘access to the grapevine’… and that’s what’s been going down. You both KNOW THINGS that you have decided you won’t talk about until the sources do.
That’s fine… but it makes you both TREES… and you KNOW that.
You and RTS are known ‘trees’ ( with known access to the ‘grapevine’ ) so hang in there for some ‘shaking’ ( as you suggested we all do ).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Attacking their crew will not give them a reason to talk.
Fer cryin’ out loud.
Speaking for myself… I am NOT “attacking the fucking Blue Ridge crew”.
Pointing out what is ACTUALLY in the public evidence record ( which is all I have been
trying to do ) so that people can make up their own minds is NOT ‘attacking’ anyone and
it’s absurd for you to make it sound that way.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Everything that WTKTT has conjured up has a lot of open places in it
>> that he can not prove without the BR info.
I am NOT ‘conjuring up’ the fact that there is NO evidence in the public record that
anyone involved with Blue Ridge was ever directly involved in saving any ‘citizen’s lives’
that day… as RTS tried to assert with this carte-blanche statement…
On December 25, 2015 at 3:29 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
———————————————————————————————
Brian Frisby and tHe BRHS are one of the most competent HS in the nation as far as I’m concerned. They were instrumental in providing the needed leadership that day as well as saving citizens’ lives that day.
———————————————————————————————-
I’m no magician. I can’t ‘conjur up’ something that’s NOT THERE.
There is NO VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE that what RTS now claims is, in any way, true.
If anyone is doing the ‘conjuring’ there… it’s RTS.
Unless he is willing to supply more information about all these “things he has supposedly heard”, or help us run his hearsay to ground… then it remains UNVERIFIED information and all we have to go on is what’s in the public evidence record.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> My assumption are just that and are only based on what I have read and
>> on my Past experience. Take your choice I made mine.
>>
>> BR did what they were trained to do Brown and Fresby made sure their crew was safe.
>> And then did what ever they thought they needed to do.
>> Evidently the ADOSH felt the same.
ADOSH was NEVER allowed to interview ANY Blue Ridge Hotshot and they VERY much wanted to.
They had testimony of TWO different groups of FFs that came “Running like HELL” out of the woods out there in the Harper Canyon / Youth Camp / Cutover trail area.
They had ENOUGH ( verifiable ) testimony to issue a close-call workplace ‘citation’ for one group that came “Running like HELL” out of the woods… but not the other, because they were totally DENIED any chance to INTERVIEW that ‘other group’.
Dem’s the fact as far as ‘what ADOSH did’ goes.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Whether WTKTT likes it or not that’s the Real Story
This isn’t about me… or what I like or don’t like.
I do NOT even HAVE the ‘Real Story’.
Neither do you.
All I have been doing is trying to keep this ‘Blue Ridge’ thread grounded in what we DO know… and that is only what is CURRENTLY in the public evidence record.
If these Blue Ridge people feel that evidence record needs to get ‘updated’ and/or ‘verified’… then TELL THEM TO SPEAK UP.
TELL them to pull up their big-boy shorts and find a way to “tell their own stories”.
Just “shakin’ the tree” here, Bob… as YOU SUGGESTED we do.
Well you finally admitted you do not have the real story but you keep pushing your side and I keep pushing mine. So maybe we could get back to civil and you could look at my information instead of denying it as it is not any different from your information we neither one have any facts fro the Crew. But I also have facts that you ignore to promote your story..
Your statements are Challenging the BR Crew in a negative fission I am telling you if you were face to face with them you would be in deep shit I have seen fist fights start with a whole lot less, and they would still tell you nothing.
You are going about your tree shaking wrong and you are causing some serious fractures in
this as has been said Camp Fire group.
What your saying will not change my mind and what I am saying will not change yours.
RTS will not answer or talk to you any more so I think its time to
Back up and start over.
Your attack on the BR crew will not be tolerated by me or RTS find a different approach.
I did not make my self clear on the Gag order.
First Gary after every thing he said about there not being such a thing turned around and said he and his crew were put under one by his forest FMO in a Closed room the law was laid down now that was in the 80’s.
After the law was passed by congress things changed in 2002. with that change came the meeting with Federal Lawyers. You can call it what you want their are legal terms.
The blue color guys call it a Gag Order. Yes I have seen it in use not to me but to a Hot Shot Crew. They were on a fire that 2 Helitack were killed on every one knew the District ranger was responsible all Federal Employees that were on the Fire were Gag Ordered on that one on that one.
A friend of mine that was a Safety Officer on a Team him and several other Team Members were brought up on criminal charges but just after the fire the were individually put on Gag Orders. In a Room with a closed Door with the Forest Supervisor and the fire people involved the Federal lawyer and their own lawyer in the case of my friend.
Buy the way the criminal case fell apart and he was found innocent but they took him off Fires for 2 years then he went back at the Safety Officer level till he retired. So even if you go thru the hoops the good old boys will have the last say.
So yes it is there and still alive today. It all evolved because of the ability to file criminal charges. Right or wrong the legal system changed the rules along with that came the new investigation system No one did any thing wrong don’t identify the rules that were violated and by whom. We will figure out the lessons learned out side the investigation .format.
They are all big boys shorts or not— some with Carriers a good job and a family to support and promotions in the future they will never open up this can of worms and loose their position in life.
So I am saying lets burry the hatchet here and try to understand what each of us are saying
and fined neutral ground.
If we can not get back to that neutral ground this experiment is over.
You would have a hard time with out our Fire background and we would be hard pressed with out your and others input and research.
As Gary said although wrong color. Forest Service lifers bleed green start cutting to deep and we get defensive. You have seen that with severial FS people who have been on here or still are.
Ill Rest for now .your turn.
t.
Just for info I knew 2 weeks before the Coroners report came out on here what was in it but did not put it on here. The alcohol levels but not the full reports that John put out.
So ya I do not talk when I say I wont. Shaking my tree won’t change that.
Thanks for confirming that you do, oftentimes, ‘know things’ but won’t speak about them until someone else lets them come out as public knowledge.
For the rest of us… that just also confirms you are one of the TREES that needs to be ‘shaken’ from time to time ( like now ) to “see if anything falls out”.
Wow – the season of Good Will to All “men” huh?
I think Marti had it spot on “Circular Firing Squad!”
This is NOT aimed at any individual or group or “side”, I’m totally neutral.
So somehow THEY did it, divide and conquer. Whilst the campfire buddies are squabbling amongst themselves, the real answers go…well unanswered. (THEY being those that want the truth to be that detailed in the official investigations – THEY that don’t want to hear what truths are being said here).
I don’t really care who started what, who bitched at who and called someone names, and came up with some great and sometimes funny soundbite quotes, this really has to stop, and the respect for each other that endured here should be returned. YES it is frustrating not having the answers, and thinking we know WHO does have SOME answers. YES it is frustrating given the leaps that have taken place recently and then come to (almost) a sudden stop. But until someone steps in with what they know – we’re never gonna know. And if we make this place hostile – who in their right mind is gonna come on here and spill?
C’mon guys, it’s easy to get the questions raised that require answers WITHOUT all the put downs. By all means we can still have disagreements, no one will agree all the time, but there’s no need for all this shit to be thrown at each other. Someone will be driven away, or not join in, and the investigation will be poorer for it!
So please, lets leave hostility/grudges etc at the door and get down to business.
As an aside, regarding Gag Orders, every single company I have ever worked for, had an entry in the contract (that I put my signature to before starting work) stating that I couldn’t discuss company business outside of the company with anyone who wasn’t in the company. – would have been a disciplinary if I did.
New Year is a coming….lets get to the bottom of this once and for all.
Good advice from Otis
Otis. Good advice. But bob continues to mislead this group. And occasionally, he gets challenged. And then all hell breaks loose. He will not stand down, and attempt to bully non fire fighters, including myself. I am glad to see wtk call him out. I will agree to just stick to the facts. But not Bob’s version of the facts
Calvin Prove me wrong ——you are the one that started the Fuck You.
I think my 33 years and my experience along with the facts makes good points.
Lets see—- the Engine operator said he Saw the Crew running down the Cat Trail and wondered what was going on.
If he wondered that and saw no fire following them. Then the Close call starts looking whole lot different. So the Engine waited until a Fire official came along and told him to leave then he blew his Siren and waited for his crew driving slow so they would get there and load up and get out ahead of the fire.
Now my guess is they were at least 15 Minuets behind the BR crew that’s a guess but they were still ahead of the Fire which gave plenty of time for the BR crew to have loaded and left the area.
The Crew had their own Lookout the Crew made their own decisions and left well before the other Engines were even told to leave.
My conclusion the BR Crew was way out ahead of any entrapment.
If that’s misleading the group and not the actual facts then prove me wrong_____
I think I am Right and I think you and WTKTT are wrong.
WTKTT takes an added step when he says the crew was in immediate danger and should have been cited by ADOSH . That is pure BS.
ADOSH had enough information from other sources to make that conclusion with out talking to the Crew. And the BR crew buy then was under Federal Attorney protection. They could have still Sequestered the individuals and their Attorneys. They evidently did not feel that was necessary.
End of story— You can not say they were in danger based on those facts
Prove me wrong ?????? You have not given any proof yet just your Statements on agreement with who ever.
WTKTT has his scenario but there is a big hole of proof when he leaves out the information departed by the Engine operator that saw them leaving and he did not know why. Because he did not see any fire chasing them.
Actually… it was RTS I was originally ‘calling out’ when he suddenly made this carte-blanche statement…
On December 25, 2015 at 3:29 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
———————————————————————————————
Brian Frisby and tHe BRHS are one of the most competent HS in the nation as far as I’m concerned. They were instrumental in providing the needed leadership that day as well as saving citizens’ lives that day.
———————————————————————————————-
There is NO EVIDENCE currently in the public record that anyone involved with the Blue Ridge Hotshots ever lifted a finger to ‘save citizen lives’ that day.
Bob Powers just jumped in and started ‘defending’ RTS and then making it sound like I was ‘attacking’ Blue Ridge just because I was pointing out that there is no evidence to support something his ‘friend’ just said.
It was Bob Powers himself who recently (first) suggested…
On December 16, 2015 at 1:58 pm, Bob Powers said…
I guess we keep shaking the tree till everything falls out..
Then many others immediately AGREED with him…
On December 16, 2015 at 6:21 pm, Gary Olson said…
I agree with Bob Powers that we should keep shaking the tree until everything falls out, one way or the other.
On December 29, 2015 at 11:08 am, Norb Szczurek says
It’s important that we keep shaking the tree to see what else falls out.
On December 18, 2015 at 12:52 am, WantsToKnowTheTruth said…
The tree IS ‘shaking’ a little (lately)… and some things ARE ‘falling out’. Let’s keep at it.
What RTS and Mr. Powers are getting their shorts in a knot over right now is that they, themselves, have already established themselves as TREES with all this talk of their own access to “grapevines” and “I have heard things but I can’t say from who”.
And they are objecting to being ‘shaken’ to ‘see what might fall out’ EXACTLY the way Mr. Powers himself suggested we all do.
Reply to Otis post on December 30, 2015 at 8:54 am
>> Otis said…
>>
>> As an aside, regarding Gag Orders, every single company I have ever
>> worked for, had an entry in the contract (that I put my signature to before
>> starting work) stating that I couldn’t discuss company business outside of
>> the company with anyone who wasn’t in the company. – would have been
>> a disciplinary if I did.
Keyword: “Company”.
I’m assuming you are referring to PRIVATE companies?
Every person who was ‘working’ the Yarnell Hill Fire was a PUBLIC servant.
Every dollar that was spent in that workplace was PUBLIC tax money.
We’re not talking about Exon Mobile here.
The issue below was whether or not there REALLY is any PROOF that any kind of official, legal gag-order was ever REALLY imposed on any of these ‘civil servants’ who were there earning PUBLIC money that day… especially with regards to the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
Gary Olson has heard through HIS “grapevine” ( I’m really sick of this grapevine stuff but that’s another story ) that there is NOT NOW nor has there EVER BEEN any such ‘official’ gag-order.
Mr. Powers replied with one of his “let me tell you all how it really is” posts which was just another “tales of the past” sort of thing and NOT any direct proof one way or the other with regards to the Yarnell Hill Fire, specifically.
Likewise… RTS seems to have “These men are under an official gag-order” sitting on a function key macro, or something, but not matter how many times he posts that it still is not definitive PROOF of anything, one way or the other.
It’s the PROOF we are now seeking.
We’re taking TIMES, DATES, NAMES and copies of emails, documents or text messages, if they exist.
Gary Olson’s source says we won’t find these things… because they NEVER EXISTED.
A couple of my friends that do not communicate on here are saying that WTKTT is driving away
and keeping the Blue Ridge crew from coming on here.
Throwing new blame at them which is way out of reality is not helping bring any truth to the discussion.
Just thought I would say we are as Marti said getting way to negative to each other.
while I do not agree with you I do not need a lecture either. My opinion is based on my experience
and what I see and read on the Blue Ridge Crew. Their plan their action and Their drive out.
I see no Fire at the time chasing them out nor any info what so ever to indicate that happened.
Brown and Frisby were very active but did not seem worried about their crew. They were pushing others to get out so they must have felt their crew was safe they had Radio Communications with them the entire time. So I say they were out and gone with no problem well ahead of the fire.
I will not change my view until I see written proof they barely escaped the inferno with their shirt tails on fire and their truck tires melting. OK
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 29, 2015 at 6:42 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A couple of my friends that do not communicate on here are
>> saying that WTKTT is driving awayand keeping the Blue Ridge crew
>> from coming on here.
Absolute horseshit.
If ANY of the Blue Ridge Crew have finally found some spinal fluid and want to “tell their story”… then what I ( and others ) may or may not have to say about it should not stop them for one second.
They DO realize that WHEREVER they finally start to “tell their story”… it WILL be subjected to public comment, right?
If they didn’t get ENOUGH spinal fluid injected yet… then let them get together with Mr. Bill Gabbert who can then shut off all public comments like he did for Brendan McDonough.
It doesn’t matter WHERE they start to “tell their story ( unredacted )”.
It only matters that they DO tell it ( someday ).
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Throwing new blame at them which is way out of reality is not helping
>> bring any truth to the discussion.
The TRUTH I am trying to bring to the discussion about the Yarnell Hill Fire is what REALLY happened that day… and not some ‘glorified’ version of it.
How many times do I have to say the following.
I am GLAD that none of those Blue Ridge boys died that day.
I am GLAD they had the good sense to watch out for their own safety and come
RUNNING out of those woods when the time came, instead of just walking.
I am GLAD they went home to their families that day, like they were supposed to.
But I’m not going to give them any awards, either.
There are plenty of QUESTIONS still remaining about their involvement with the Yarnell Hill Fire and what may or may not have actually happened.
They don’t get a ‘free pass’. They are ‘key witnesses’ to a National Tragedy and they should come forward and speak openly and honestly about all of it.
WHY were theyTWO to TWO and 1/2 hours LATE getting there?
WHY did those men sit around on their asses for almost FOUR and 1/2 HOURS out there in that Sesame clearing when it was clear in the early morning that improving the already-pushed dozer lines was what the 3 Type 1 IHC Crews were ‘ordered up’ for in the first place?
WHY did one of the Blue Ridge crewmembers write in his (signed) testimony that even when THEY knew they had been ordered to evacuate… they told some citizens they didn’t know if any evacuations were in motion yet and they should just ‘get ready’ in case they had to leave?
WHAT else did Frisby and Marsh talk about for 30 minutes during that first face-to-face from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM other than shitty briefings and Marsh asking Frisby if they could have more ‘cubies and Gatorade’? Did they just stare at each other for the other 25 minutes?
WHY did Marsh request that second-face-to-face with Frisby after the fire had already burned through the middle-bowl retardant line and was headed for Yarnell? Did Marsh give ANY reason ( to Frisby ) about WHY he wanted Frsiby to drop everything else he was doing and eat dirt for 2 miles just to ‘see something’ rather than just TELL Frisby on the radio whatever it was he wanted to tell him? If Marsh really wanted Frisby to SEE something… then what was it?
I didn’t invent these ( and many other ) obvious questions.
They have been there all along, and they still deserve to be answered.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I will not change my view until I see written proof they barely escaped
>> the inferno with their shirt tails on fire and their truck tires melting. OK
You said somewhere down below that you would now be willing to at least use the phrase ‘close call’ for their exit from the Cutover Trail.
It really doesn’t matter what you think or what I think.
What MATTERS is how did the CREW feel about it?
Did THEY consider it a ‘close call’, as they were Hauling-Ass-RUNNING out of those woods and jumping back into their Carriers?
Maybe one day ( soon ) we’ll find out.
I have to agree with WTKTT on this count. I believe if the BR fellows have any truck with what has been said by WTKTT then they ought to have the balls to come on here and refute what he has said. Marsh or Steed can’t testify or defend their reasons for ordering those 17 to their deaths. Dead men don’t talk, but their cohorts on the fire that heard and know what went down can.
The world stands waiting–Donut’s testimony with its omissions is suspect so we need some input from BR et. al. and I can’t see why they would fear answering WTKTT. Maybe they can explain to Bob (secretly of course) what their fear is. Perhaps WTKK is right, the Bill Gabbert protection program might be a better outlet for them. And if truly you fellows are afraid of losing your job then do your post under a fictitious name. Use a code like YH for the BR to protect your identity. If you go too far maybe we can get you into the FBI identity protection program.
Sonny,
You posted: “if the BR fellows have any truck with what has been said by WTKTT then they ought to have the balls to come on here and refute what he has said. Marsh or Steed can’t testify or defend their reasons for ordering those 17 to their deaths.”
If you actually believe this then you are as full of shit as WTKTT.
The GMHS went to their deaths by their own hand and by their own bad decision to leave the perfectly good black without a lookout and at the worst possible time.
Then did you hear the radio transmissions and the phone conversations and have phone records of June 30, 2013 so you know for absolute fact that those men are the only ones responsible for the deaths of their subordinates? Explain to me why BR is so closed mouth on this subject and why there are so many redactions and even videos removed showing evidence that much went on that is suppressed. I see WTKTT as seeking evidence and not purposely pointing a finger–except to those that are withholding evidence.
Adh Mor Ort–mair agus ceadiagh mair–
When I topped out the Weavers and left Joy behind at the very spot the GMHS later dropped down, I thought hey that lady had a hard head and was intent on going her way–but I thought hell I got to go back and get her for her ignorance of what a wild fire can do. I also thought the State would likely charge me for murder since I knew better than her and had left that stubborn woman to her own devices. I wonder if Marsh also worried he would be charged with murder after he realized he had done the wrong thing–so he charged out there on a suicide mission to attempt to make a last ditch effort to rectify his gross error. He lucked out with Donut, the inexperienced look out that got out only by a quirk of luck.
You think I am full of it for the premise that there were several that influenced Marsh’s decision to drop off into that obvious death trap?
The only reason I can see that there has been so much cover up in this case is that no one wants to taint the image of the operation management–that whole job a royal screw up from day one.
Now I am not a fire fighter nor claim to be. Having been a cowboy, logger and mostly miner my posts are light weight to say the least. You can take them with a grain of salt as the GMHS took Rick McKinsey’s admonition to those men when he saw them that morning before the hike. He is close to 400 pounds weight, tall and not a man to go unnoticed. He is a cowboy and family roots here for 150 years. When he advised them by saying you boys don’t get caught in that manzanita with that fire moving–they took his advice with a grain of salt. Sad.
Much more to this story–and yes, I would agree you men of long history of fire fighting experience far outweigh civilian opinion. But some on this site, including WTKTT are finding out evidence that can only help save lives in this profession.
Sonny,
The GMHS ‘accepted the risk’ as the lawyers say and left their SZ on their own accord. No one MADE them go.
And I agree that Marsh basically committed suicide because he realized his bad decision would result in his Crews’ deaths
Sonny,
The GMHS left their SZ of the own accord. They ‘aaccepted the risk’ as the lawyers say,
and hiked down to their deaths.
Nobody forced them or made them leave.
And I agree that once Marsh realized his bad decision would lead to the death of his Crew, he decided it best to join them, thus committing suicide.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 29, 2015 at 8:21 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The GMHS went to their deaths by their own hand and by
>> their own bad decision to leave the perfectly good black
>> without a lookout and at the worst possible time.
And on that point… we are in total agreement.
Always have been.
This is a very interesting ‘third rail’ that seems to have been touched here just by pointing out to everyone what the evidence record has always shown and by pointing out the many QUESTIONS that still need to be answered involving the Blue Ridge Hotshots and their actual involvement/experiences in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
And it boggles my mind how some seem to think that discussion is, in any way, suggesting that Blue Ridge had ANYTHING to do with why those 19 men died on the same fire they happened to be working.
Things are NOT black and white here.
We do NOT ( as some have been trying to suggest lately ) have a situation where the bestest, most hookum skookum Hotshot crew in the nation was working right alongside the worstest most muckum skuckum Hotshot crew in the nation… and guess who died?
Some people might like to just “put it in a bottle that way” to look at it and have it make sense to THEM… but that’s not what happened.
In the interest of telling the COMPLETE ( TRUE ) STORY. There are still MANY questions about what was really going on with BOTH of those Type 1 IHC Hotshot crews that day.
RTS… I’m glad you didn’t pick up your toys and go home just because I finally got you to answer some questions.
I still thank you for your (eventual) responses below.
Looking forward to more, when you have the time and the inclination.
In the meantime… I will repeat what I said below.
If you have a chance… PLEASE tell your Blue Ridge friends to try and reach down and pull up their big-boy shorts and find SOME way to finally talk openly and honestly ( with SOMEONE / ANYONE ) about their involvement and experiences in what will forever remain a National Tragedy.
WTKTT
How did the crew feel about their Escape from Yarnell?????
They went on to fight fires the rest of 2013.
2014 and 2015 with no deployments no entrapments lets say 75 large fires over a period of 16 months of summer fire fighting.
Just another day at the office. Work hard keep safe have a plan and follow the 10 and 18. I am betting Blue Ridge has never deployed a Fire shelter—- WHY because they do the job the right way with good supervisors.
The only thing with that day was they lost fellow hot shots some they knew maybe some were friends we know they had worked to gather before. So that day at the office had some bad memories. BR were all OK and they moved on to the next fire. and the next 2 1/2 seasons.
If that dose not give you an idea of how they felt, then I am talking to a wall.
They would tell you they got the hell off that Cat line to their trucks and got the hell out of there to the highway and then watched the son of a bitch burn. Then they found out GM didn’t make it. They walked into an unburned fuel bed in a canyon.
What the hell were they thinking. On to the next FIRE.
You have to be right Bob–they went on to the next fire–Willis said that is what they do— and we read the sign here at Yarnell memorial telling us what it means to be a GMHS. You have to strickly take orders on a daily basis. If the boss says jump, you jump–do fifty then you do fifty. On to the next fire, Kemo Sabe–
I keep trying to explain one more thing.
The new legal system—Lawyers tell you the federal employee not to say anything about the fire because other Federal employees could be implicated and have criminal charges levied against them for their decisions or lack there of on the fire.
None of you are getting that it is the new legal backlash fro the law passed by Congress that allows families and the justice system to bring charges against fire supervisors on Criminal charges be cause of fatalities
due to decisions made or not made in a very dynamic situation.
Like it or not its the new way of doing business to stop law suits and protect Employees.
Thus the real and factual GAG ORDER. .
This type of gag order must have been around for a long time. Dr. Ted Putnam is investigating a criminal situation involving a forest ranger that had the same problem over 60 years ago. The state did not want to be sued so covered up and stretched evidence so that no law suit would ensue. The guy got away with murder and arson
It seems to be a similar situation here where State and Federal people are afraid of the lawsuits. Seems like no matter how bad a fire is managed the system is going to hand out awards and these fellows will continue to manage fires just as they did in Yarnell.
Well I do believe it will take some guts for people to come forward That after all is the right thing to do considering how it will have effect on future fire fighting safety. Even the memorial on these men should tell the truth that Marsh and Steed made fatal error that killed 17 young lives and how that came about. To not address these issues is a flat out lie. And then the memorial should address why this SAIT investigation was so sloppy and had its own narritive. People are afraid of looking bad first I think. The suits against the government and state seem to me to be a low priority in this matter since your government is paying out tax payer money anyhow and the entities working there are exempt except if they really did wrong. I keep hearing that in Yarnell no one but Marsh and Steed were at fault, yet I believe it was negligence from day one. But as one firefighter told me, I don’t know shit. Maybe the facts do though.
Sonny,
Dr. Putnam told me the Ranger had to testify first and that NO ONE was allowed to contradict his testimony. What’s up with that?
Sonny,
You posted: “You have to strickly take orders on a daily basis. If the boss says jump, you jump …”
Well that was likely how the GMHS operated, but not so with almost every other Crew.
That bad attitude and poor leadership style has all kinds of implications for trouble, e.g. Groupthink, ‘Taking a Trip to Abilene,’ The Morality of Obeying Stupid Orders, whatever.
And I think all that AND dulled sense snd impaired judgement from hangovers is why the GMHS left their perfectly good SZ that day and died. They knew or at least should have known better.
You want to have a Crew that follows orders when it’s right, when it’s safe, and NOT to follow them, and give you reasons why, when it is obvious or should have been obvious that they would likely die. WTF!
In other words, you do NOT want a bunch of sheep!
Who made the comment “fuck it, lets just go for it?” Oh yes. It was Brian Frisby. Leader of the safest hotshot team in the USA.
And your point is still MUTE.
Driving thru a short area on a 4 wheeler was not as hazardous as you would make it, on a road at speed was really simple if you have any knowledge of both Fire and the speed and ability of your vehicle.
The Video of this is really self explanatory. There was no wall of flame the power lines were down and out the Propane tank was venting. All positive signs. No big deal.
I see I twisted your Tail down Below and we are now at Fuck You.
You do not cover your tracks very well protecting Elizabeth and supporting her here and on her worthless Blog.
No you will get no Apology from me.
By the Way if you go back thru this 2 and a1/2 year discussion you will see severial times where I have made mistakes and said so.
and I will have a happy new year thanks.
Bib. What is Elizabeth’s blog name? I will go check it out
Really– You quoted from it on here several times.
You are a real treat enjoy your self Calvin.
Attempting Ignorance Oh Well————-
Your memory does work bob. Why can’t you remember things from the evidence available? Why do you keep misquoting? Is it imtentional?
Hay Calvin Show me the proof you have yet to lay out your Theories.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 30, 2015 at 8:20 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> There was no wall of flame the power lines were down and out,
>> the Propane tank was venting. All positive signs. No big deal.
No big deal?
Power lines down AND OUT?
Where are you getting that from?
You, yourself, were wondering back in Chapter 10 if the power lines were actually ‘live or dead’ during this Blue Ridge “Fuck it… let’s go for it moment”.
I answered your question and pointed out that NO… there was NO evidence the power had been cut off to those lines when they decided to “fuck it… let’s go for it”… and almost got clothes-hanged by them ( as seen in Aaron Hulburd’s video ).
You yourself admitted ( after watching the video ) that probably the only reason they didn’t get hung up in the ( possibly LIVE ) power lines was because they were in UTV/ATV and you yourself said it would have probably been too dangerous to even think about trying it with a regular vehicle and that’s why they radioed for no one to follow them because it was “too dangerous” ( which is documented in Blue Ridge Unit logs ).
The following is from my Reply to you from the evidence record.
NOTE: Even TWO HOURS after Frisby and Brown’s “Fuck it… let’s go for it” moment over on Shrine Road no one was SURE the power had been cut to Yarnell or Glen Ilah, and they were still trying to VERIFY.
From Chapter XI ( 11 )…
———————————————————-
On February 12, 2015 at 9:29 am, WTKTT replied to Bob Powers
Bob… you also wondered if the power lines were still ‘live’.
There is no definite proof that the ‘grid’ had been shut down circa 1735 ( 5:35 PM ) or so when this ‘breakthrough’ took place… but OPS2 Paul Musser DOES talk about getting the ‘grid’ shut down at some point in his ADOSH interview.
The following ‘cut’ from Musser’s ADOSH interview seems to suggest that no one got with APS ( Arizona Public Services Co. ) to make sure all the power lines were dead until sometime AFTER the bodies were discovered and they then started figuring out how they were going to push that dozer road from the Helms’ place out to the deployment site.
NOTE: At this point in the interview… when Musser says “The people on the ridge came down to the deployment site” he is referring to Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown, and PNF employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and the moment when they pulled their UTVs up to the Saddle point and then ran/walked on foot down the same path GM had took to get to the floor of the canyon.
Q2 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH
A = OPS2 Paul Musser
————————————————————————————-
A: The people off the ridge came (down) to the deployment site and then started trying to find ground access. Uh, to get us in there. Still active fire going on structures and stuff. Uh, a lot of power lines down. Um, so we had to figure how we could get in and get around the power lines and stuff like that…
Q2: Right.
A: …to gain ground access. Met with, uh, APS – several different people in APS to make sure that everything was dead. Which took us a while to do. ‘Cause we had confirmation that it was dead, but I couldn’t talk to the person that gave that confirmation, so…
Q2: Oh yeah.
A: …so I had to talk to them personally that everything was dead, um, because we were gonna bring a dozer in to, uh, help clean up and create access. Tried to get them to cut the lines, they said just push it over and move on. Which then tangled up in the dozer
—————————————————————————————
Bob continues to misguided the conversation. He has to be fact checked every time he opens his mouth. And, he will not back down when he is called out. Who is pulling YOUR chains, BOB?
Calvin you really want a pissing fight here you have nothing to offer but Elizabeth’s little Games.
I think you are proving your self to be a TROL
I haven seen you fact check any thing just follow WTKTT and
put Elizabeth’s two Cents in to stir the pot.
No one is pulling my Chains —- But it looks like I am pulling yours.
Enjoy or be constructive.
Just imagine the frustration. After everything they did that day fucked up. Then the dozer gets stick in power lines. What a sad day!
WTKTT
And the lines were down and out right the dozer did not get fried.
Yes the lines were hanging but high enough for a 4 wheeler to get under not a pick up till the lines were checked. Evidently they were buy your above statement
Do you even READ these posts before replying?
It was TWO HOURS AFTER the Frisby/Brown “Fuck it… let’s go for it moment” and the near-clothes-hang on ( possibly still LIVE ) power lines when OPS2 Paul Musser still wasn’t sure the power lines were dead and he was still trying to VERIFY that.
TWO HOURS after, Bob.
The very phrase “Fuck it… let’s go for it” also automatically means Frsiby and Brown KNEW what they were planning to do had a very high RISK element to it… but they did it anyway.
The LEGAL definition for that kind of (provable) behavior is something called DEPRAVED INDIFFERENCE.
Let me see if I understand. Gary calls bullshit on your gag order that apparently does not exist. Then bob says wtk is THE reason br guys do not post on IM? Is that what bob just said?
Ah your twisting the story again why do I feel like there is the Hand of EN in your questions Calvin.?????
I explained the Gag Order down below. If some BR Crewman are no longer employed by the FS they are free to say what they want if they want here or any place else. They have been talking within the grape vine as RTS and I can attest to .
More RTS because he is still going on Fires and Meeting those that were on the Yarnell Hill Fire. You all want the Who which neither of us will give up until the who speaks up. We are giving them that. Attacking their crew will not give them a reason to talk. Every thing that WTKTT has conjured up has a lot of open places in it that he can not prove without the BR info.
My assumption are just that and are only based on what I have read and on my Past experience. Take your choice I made mine.
BR did what they were trained to do Brown and Fresby made sure their crew was safe. And then did what ever they thought they needed to do.
Evidently the ADOSH felt the same. Whether WTKTT likes it or not that’s the Real Story———-
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 30, 2015 at 8:34 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I explained the Gag Order down below.
The only thing you explained (below) was what you THINK took place.
The DISCUSSION down below where you chimed in with your “this is the way it is, people” explanation(s) was simply about whether any such gag-order really DOES exist.
Gary Olson says HE has heard ( on HIS ‘grapevine’ ) that it does NOT… and NEVER did.
That issue remains unresolved, despite your lengthy “this is how it is” assumptions.
There is still no PROOF that anyone involved with this Yarnell incident has EVER been under ANY kind of legal gag-order.
We are still just waiting to see if that proof surfaces.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> If some BR Crewman are no longer employed by the FS they are free to say what they
>> want if they want here or any place else.
Correct. So let them pull up their big-boy shorts and DO that.
There have been MANY shake-ups and turnovers in the Blue Ridge roster since the tragedy.
Trueheart Brown left Blue Ridge but is still an AFMO for USFS down in southern Arizona.
Cory Ball ( the DOZB/HEQB from Yarnell ) is now Brian Frisby’s Assistant Superintendent.
Ronald Gamble LEFT Blue Ridge ( and USFS ) shortly after the tragedy and now comes to
work every day and sits in the same fucking office that Eric Marsh once occupied.
How’s that for irony? ( Someone still needs to just walk over there and interview him ).
It is VERY likely that MANY of that crew ( seasonals in 2013 ) no longer work for USFS.
So let them come forward.
TELL them ( if you can ) to come forward and “tell their own stories” about their involvement in what will forever remain a National Tragedy… as the First Amendment allows them to do.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They have been talking within the grape vine as RTS and I can attest to .
And THAT is why the two of you are simply a ‘tree’ that ALSO needs to be SHAKED, as we are doing right now… and as YOU suggested we all do.
Yes, Bob… the first QUOTE below about “Let’s shake the tree and see what falls out” is YOURS…
On December 16, 2015 at 1:58 pm, Bob Powers said…
I guess we keep shaking the tree till everything falls out..
On December 16, 2015 at 6:21 pm, Gary Olson said…
I agree with Bob Powers that we should keep shaking the tree until everything falls out, one way or the other.
On December 29, 2015 at 11:08 am, Norb Szczurek says
It’s important that we keep shaking the tree to see what else falls out.
On December 18, 2015 at 12:52 am, WantsToKnowTheTruth said…
The tree IS ‘shaking’ a little (lately)… and some things ARE ‘falling out’. Let’s keep at it.
Etc…. etc…
Complete agreement ( with YOUR suggestion, Bob ) that ‘shaking some trees’ is the next best thing to do.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> More RTS because he is still going on Fires and Meeting those that were on
>> the Yarnell Hill Fire. You all want the Who which neither of us will give up until
>> the who speaks up. We are giving them that.
Yes. BOTH YOU and RTS are known ‘TREES’ that need to be shaked BECAUSE of all this talk of ‘access to the grapevine’… and that’s what’s been going down. You both KNOW THINGS that you have decided you won’t talk about until the sources do.
That’s fine… but it makes you both TREES… and you KNOW that.
You and RTS are known ‘trees’ ( with known access to the ‘grapevine’ ) so hang in there for some ‘shaking’ ( as you suggested we all do ).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Attacking their crew will not give them a reason to talk.
Fer cryin’ out loud.
Speaking for myself… I am NOT “attacking the fucking Blue Ridge crew”.
Pointing out what is ACTUALLY in the public evidence record ( which is all I have been
trying to do ) so that people can make up their own minds is NOT ‘attacking’ anyone and
it’s absurd for you to make it sound that way.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Everything that WTKTT has conjured up has a lot of open places in it
>> that he can not prove without the BR info.
I am NOT ‘conjuring up’ the fact that there is NO evidence in the public record that
anyone involved with Blue Ridge was ever directly involved in saving any ‘citizen’s lives’
that day… as RTS tried to assert with this carte-blanche statement…
On December 25, 2015 at 3:29 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
———————————————————————————————
Brian Frisby and tHe BRHS are one of the most competent HS in the nation as far as I’m concerned. They were instrumental in providing the needed leadership that day as well as saving citizens’ lives that day.
———————————————————————————————-
I’m no magician. I can’t ‘conjur up’ something that’s NOT THERE.
There is NO VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE that what RTS now claims is, in any way, true.
If anyone is doing the ‘conjuring’ there… it’s RTS.
Unless he is willing to supply more information about all these “things he has supposedly heard”, or help us run his hearsay to ground… then it remains UNVERIFIED information and all we have to go on is what’s in the public evidence record.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> My assumption are just that and are only based on what I have read and
>> on my Past experience. Take your choice I made mine.
>>
>> BR did what they were trained to do Brown and Fresby made sure their crew was safe.
>> And then did what ever they thought they needed to do.
>> Evidently the ADOSH felt the same.
ADOSH was NEVER allowed to interview ANY Blue Ridge Hotshot and they VERY much wanted to.
They had testimony of TWO different groups of FFs that came “Running like HELL” out of the woods out there in the Harper Canyon / Youth Camp / Cutover trail area.
They had ENOUGH ( verifiable ) testimony to issue a close-call workplace ‘citation’ for one group that came “Running like HELL” out of the woods… but not the other, because they were totally DENIED any chance to INTERVIEW that ‘other group’.
Dem’s the fact as far as ‘what ADOSH did’ goes.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Whether WTKTT likes it or not that’s the Real Story
This isn’t about me… or what I like or don’t like.
I do NOT even HAVE the ‘Real Story’.
Neither do you.
All I have been doing is trying to keep this ‘Blue Ridge’ thread grounded in what we DO know… and that is only what is CURRENTLY in the public evidence record.
If these Blue Ridge people feel that evidence record needs to get ‘updated’ and/or ‘verified’… then TELL THEM TO SPEAK UP.
TELL them to pull up their big-boy shorts and find a way to “tell their own stories”.
Just “shakin’ the tree” here, Bob… as YOU SUGGESTED we do.
What I say that some one else told me has no verifiable check.
so for one I would be crucified by every one with out the name and a statement from them.
Also I am still one of those who believes if I give my word to not say any thing or who told me I stick by that until the Person themselves brings it forward.
All of you saw what happened when I put the Argument out there wit the Fact that Marsh was at the BSR. I would not give a name and I was crucified for what I said I had been told.
Then the Prescott City attorney sad almost the same thing after I had given it to IM severial months earlier.
So those are the reasons I wont go down that road again
I believe those are the same reasons that RTS wont say any thing about what he knows on here either.
So you can quit shaking our trees and move on. it is what it is..
It’s all perfectly understandable, Mr. Powers.
But it STILL makes you a TREE that needs to be ‘shaken’ from time to time… as per your OWN recent suggestion.
I still THANK YOU for providing an update to what you do or don’t know about this mysterious video that could be THE most important piece of evidence that remains to be ‘uncovered’.
I believe you when you say you wouldn’t even know how to recontact this person even if you wanted to.
But both you and RTS have made it clear that you ARE ‘hearing things’ on this mysterious ‘grapevine’ you both seem to share access to.
So from time to time… you’re gonna get ‘shaken’ to see what ‘grapes’ might fall off the vine.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 26, 2015 at 5:56 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> To WTKTT~
>>
>> I would really like to be able to get on to Sitta’s site. Sitta has not responded
>> to my email. Neither the name “Marti” nor my email address will get me on
>> to the site. I don’t know what’s going on.
>>
>> I would really like to look at the stuff you wrote about downstream. I wrote you
>> an email asking you if I could “borrow” your info to at least look at stuff this weekend,
>> because next week is going to be a beast for me.
>>
>> Help?
Marti… check your GMAIL email box.
Sitta is the de-facto creator and moderator of that ‘site’… but I just discovered that even as a ‘Guest’ I appear to be able to create temporary (other) ‘Guest’ accounts up there.
So I just did that and that ‘Guest account’ has your name on it.
What I BELIEVE happens next is you should be getting a new ‘invite’ to join that Basecamp as a ‘Guest’… and that email showing up at your GMAIL account should have a ‘Link/Button’ on it that allows you to come straight into that Basecamp as a ‘Guest’.
I am still not all that familiar with this BaseCamp thing Sitta chose to use, but I believe that’s what happens.
The only thing that is really there is still this test ‘ISSUE Document’ format that Sitta and I were working on and the scenario we chose for a TEST was that “ISSUE: What vehicle was OPS2 Paul Musser driving?” test case.
It’s under the “Documents” Folder there on that Basecamp home screen.
That’s where all the annotated photos are and the stillframes from Hulburd video M2U00264 that seem to prove that OPS2 Paul Musser was, in fact, driving that dark-blue single-cab pickup with the white tailgate and the “Arizona Incident Management Team” logo on the side.
Let me know if you get this ‘Guest invite’ from that Basecamp and/or if it allows you in.
If not… then I’ll look at a way to just ‘dump’ all that text and all the embedded photos and videos onto some other PUBLIC site.
Just found this. Like I said, I’m swamped this week.
Will check my email, and thanks!!
I added that ‘Guest account’ ( I think? ) for you yesterday, so you should already have that ‘Invitation’ in your GMAIL box from this ‘Basecamp’ thing.
If you don’t… then I guess that didn’t work.
Let me know if you did/didn’t get that email.
BTW: According to the ‘Basecamp’ Help screens… even as a ‘Guest’ you should be able to do pretty much anything any other Basecamp user can do on that site except ( I think ) actually add your OWN ‘Guest accounts’.
You SHOULD be able to add your OWN comments to anything so be sure to test that out if you actually get in there.
OK I FINALLY got on.
I had to download Firefox and use that because Basecamp doesn’t allow Safari 6 which is what I still have. (I need to upgrade LOTS of stuff).
Thanks for helping me with this WTKTT!!
Marti said, “This is the most depressed I have become, regarding what is going on on this site, since I joined it two years and four days ago.
And then invested 20 hours a week of my unpaid time contributing to it.
We have had plenty of fights during this time. But nothing like what I’m seeing/experiencing right now.
And this, after a pretty good stint over the past couple of months, at least as I had experienced it.
It has become a circular firing squad, this week, imho.
And I no longer feel safe saying much of anything, including this. And I don’t even have my job “on the line” regarding talking about this fire.
Congratulations, everybody.”
And I say, “I can’t help but think I have a great deal to do with that Marti, so I would like to explain myself.
1. I strongly disagreed with Fred that there ever was a true gag order, what there was, was an abortion, misconstrued, exaggerated, implied, cold stare bullshit administrative order that forbade government employees to give information that might conflict with the federal government interests, especially to the attorneys of the other side through written statements or depositions that could be used to implicate the federal government in the worthless and frivolous lawsuits by the families that had grandiose and majestic stated objectives and we found out how long those lasted when they were told “take the 50 grand and go away or you won’t get a fucking penny!”
And furthermore, we are going to pay for it by taking $15,000 from each of the families that didn’t file a worthless and frivolous lawsuit to make the squeaky wheels go away. And whatever was there is no longer there, because those lawsuits are over and the asshole attorneys have gotten their blood money and they are on to other fish to fry.
And now the Blue Ridge Hotshots and other others COULD talk without worrying about any gag order or any facsimile thereof, except the major reasons why they have never talked in the first place are still present.
a. They don’t want to cross the thin yellow line, law enforcement types have thin blue lines, the round hats have a thin red line, but wildland firefighters have a thin yellow line, (I stole that analogy) and for lots of other reasons, most of them are good ones, loss of friends, promotions opportunities, etc.
b. And Fred and Bob, bless their true blue hearts, are covering for the boys, because that is what they do, they are still very much insiders compared to me, and as you all know, I AM OFF THE FUCKING REZ AND I’M NOT GOING BACK!
2. I strongly disagreed with Bob that Mackey was well qualified complex fire overhead at the Division level. If he would have been, he wouldn’t have killed himself and been the primary person responsible for 13 other deaths. Don Mackey was every bit as responsible for the deaths on the South Canyon Fire as Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed were for the deaths on the Yarnell Hill Fire. He violated almost all of the same rules in the same way and some more for good measure. Smokejumpers are the special forces of wildland firefighting, they are typically not accustomed to managing large complex fires, they are really in their element working on small fires in the middle of nowhere with other smokejumpers. They typically don’t play well with others.
There are exceptions, but that is a general rule. HOTSHOTS are accustomed to going on and managing large complex fires with lots of other resources involve. The BLM management should NEVER have put Mackey in that position, he was in over his head from the minute he left that airplane. Shit Fire…it wasn’t a jump fire anyway. It was right next to the interstate. If the fire resources would have gone in from the bottom, they would have worked up from the bottom like they were supposed to. It was just a case of “we happen to have a bunch of bored smokejumpers who want some fire time and they are in the area, what the fuck…send them and some hotshots can be flown in by helicopter to meet them on top. And then can WORK down to the uncontrolled and unanchore4d fire below them. That’s a good fucking idea!
3. I strongly disagreed with you that the GMIHC were near unconscious or out of it in any way while they were being burned alive and I think to suggest otherwise to make ourselves feel better does a real disservice to their memory.
4. I only have one way of disagreeing with people…and that is head on and giving it all I have. That is the why I was a hotshot crew boss on the Mighty Coconino at age 23 and was given the opportunity to start the Santa Fe Hotshots and retired as I am so fond of saying….as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator – Senior Special Agent working for the USDI BLM Washington D.C., Office of Law Enforcement & Security. If I only disagreed strongly with people I don’t like, instead of everyone in the same way including those I love and respect, I would not have any credibility. So I have to go after you as hard as Willis et al.
5. You know how much I love you and how much I appreciate everything you have done here for this cause, I have told you that many, many, times.
6. I have said many times that I am an asshole, and that I am not here to build my Christmas card list and that I have always been goal oriented and tried to keep my eye on the ball and accomplish whatever objective I was assigned to accomplish without letting anything or anyone get in my way. And now you also know why I never went higher than a field level operational supervisor, I did good work but I left too many bodies on the trail and top managers never wanted to have me over to their houses for dinner. Please stop being disappointed when I act like an asshole. And please keep up the good work.
Now…my dear wife and I are going to have our Christmas at a resort up in the northern Cascades, please try to keep this blog going while I am gone because I am now a serial blogger and addicted to spewing out all of my random thoughts out here and while oversharing.
Fred? Who is Fred? Nobody by that name on here. WTF?
LOL!
Conspiracy!!!!
But then I”m just a sock-puppet of WTKTT, obviously.
Curiously, I was never accused (by “our counselor”) of being a sock-puppet of you.
I’m so glad those days are over.
But, then, obviously, we’re all just a bunch of Conspiracy Theorists. At least that’s what “the system” and “the status quo” considers us to be.
But if you and Bob, as Gary said, are just sellouts defending the system, how can you be called “Conspiracy Theorists”?
This is just all so confooooosing.
OK. I get it now, upon further contemplation.
You (heh whoever you are) are boldly proclaiming your version of Christian Values here. WTKTT doesn’t like it. Sonny challenges your version. I don’t agree with your version, but then, I don’t really give a sh*t, personally. We’re all who we are, and we all say stuff about our personal selves here, for better or worse.
However. The Granite Mountain Hotshots were, apparently, decidedly supporting a particular version of religious ideology, as evidenced by their attempt to “convert” Brendan McDonough on the Doce Fire, i.e. on “company time.”
An ideology that possibly included “trusting on the Lord” to “protect us and defend us and save us” as they headed into overwhelmingly negative odds in order to support a last ditch Hail Mary Plan to save structures (if not lives — what the hey) in the troublesome (especially for wildland firefighters) and, now infamous, Wildland Urban Interface.
But then a bunch of them went out to the Moctezuma Bar (I DO remember that place, believe me) on Saturday night, and got overly inebriated before the Yarnell Fire, and were, probably, still wandering around in OverHang Zone on Sunday. What does that say about their, at least to some extent, institutionalized “Christian Values”???
I’ve been thinking about where we’re at right now, on and off again, all day. It’s clear that, as Bob Powers wrote downstream, the basic cause of what happened to the GMHS is their obvious violations of the 10 and 18, the basic rules of going home alive.
The problem is, I think, that knowing that is not enough.
What is driving us, and keeping us here (and I don’t agree that this is mental masturbation, because that implies some kind of pleasure, and I, to be honest, have never experienced much pleasure as I have participated in this) is really the more complex collection of Human Factors issues.
Which, as a result of the SAIR, were SUPPOSED to have been further investigated by the NWCG, but are the ONLY things on the recommended list that HAVEN’T been addressed by the NWCG — what’s THAT all about?
(And those Human Factors issues also impact us and how we relate to each other).
The question we are still struggling with is “WHY?”
I think we have made massive inroads into that question. But those inroads have also led to further questions.
And a serious sense of frustration that we, gathered around our sputtering two-plus year old campfire, are doing that exact (unpaid) work that the (highly paid) investigators never bothered to do, and struggling with our questions about “what do we fricken do about THAT?”
I think that’s the source of our interpersonal tension here. And our fear, and thus anger with each other.
I didn’t originally intend to go where I went with this comment. I started with just playing around with the LULZ. But that led into my more serious reflections about what I’ve been thinking about.
We’re obviously just a whole bunch of sock-puppet Conspiracy Theorists cloned off of YOU, RTS, so……..
Everything is YOUR FAULT!!! Obviously!!! So FiX IT ALREADY!!! (Just Kidding).
Unveil your TRUE IDENTITY and everything will be instantaneously SOLVED!!!!
Namaste.
Marti,
Wow, that was quite the harangue. Good job, you’ve figured it all out.
reply to- But then I”m just a sock-puppet of WTKTT, obviously.
—-I like sock puppets—
how do you like my PI sock puppet look:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_-jA4iF9s1o/UCabdmMvoAI/AAAAAAAAADA/rQ_McfbZTno/s1600/sockie.jpg
(soft giggles)
I like your comment Marti—
I also do not have any concern if WWTKTT or RTS remain anonymous or even if others join in anonymous—the more the merrier—As WWTKTT mentions it is just about providing where one comes to what they talk about—resources and sources and I get that. I really know I don’t have much to contribute but personal lately but when it comes down to it when I do get stuff I can state public I do and if it something I know and unable to mention public I encourage others to speak up first hand. Awaiting more information at times is like being in a boat without an anchor, not rooted to anything, anywhere. I mean the piss ass investigation this fire got–it rips me up so bad– it was not rooted nor properly assessed— it was a bad joke and I am not laughing.
Sharing/Caring and opening up with purity not worrying about jobs or hurting others or society bullshit—honesty is a steadying force…it can be heavy. It ANCHORS us to the earth, to reality, and to one another and why I do not mind anyone coming to IM anonymous. Anyone withholding information first hand not hearsay or third party are selfish people- not thinking about the important questions/answers or who it impacts just how it impacts them and their lives if they spoke yet reality is they are ALIVE and 19 men are not as well as a community of losses too—it is not Bob or Gary or RTS or the hikers position to speak up—first hand is the only way.
Anyone with first hand information who lacks the courage to look at the truth is a coward- simply said.
For the ones I have met and spoke to and are okay to talk to us but not here or public—at the end of the day, at the end of one’s life, what do you have besides your good name or your reputation?
During my losses and there is many—when I think things are falling apart, they are actually falling into place….one foot in front of the other is my motto…and I am glad we face a time of feeling lost/confused in this all because its amazing to look back and one day say wow one hell of a journey we had to get here…
my vision requires action so I am not considered some passing daydreamer and I demand a change in the way they fight fires.
We saw action without vision= YHF
and that was a nightmare I live with daily.
For the ones who do know more MISSING ELEMENTS—it’s the scary, stressful choices that end up being the MOST worthwhile.
Without pain, there would be no change. But remember, pain, just like everything in life, is meant to be learned from…RTS if someone rubs you wrong for a bit because they focus to you and not me—step above and remember your actions is now one step higher and closer to Him…and nothing another says about your faith deserves a defense—
Remember also if someone speaks open like WWTKTT did, RTS- I’d say I rather have that honest opposition than someone who calls themselves my friend and my discernment knows they are lying—that stings!
All affected by the fire when it seems hate or anger seeps in even violent passing thoughts remember things will eventually be okay. Maybe not today but eventually-
Always here for the ones affected and seek the YHF to be properly assessed-
Joy,
This is really great:
“We saw action without vision= YHF ”
That is going to useful to me in teaching others. Thank you!
Who has more love for a another, one who lies or one who tells the truth? One who coddles, protects, and worries about feelings or one who tells it like it is in REAL terms?
Woodsman
http://deeperwants.com/ratboys_anvil_2/Bible%20Thumper.jpg
xoxo,
Bambi
Who has more love for a another, one who lies or one who tells the truth? One who coddles, protects, and worries about feelings or one who tells it like it is in REAL terms?
actually measurement of love is not based like the questions above because it lays in lifestyle and environment and a lot of baby boomers mean well but they are not straight forward people- very few…it was how they were raised to coddle and protect—and my generation a lot do not have the proper roots and obedience and so I would disagree with above based on the fact the percentage is more high of folks who protect and coddle vs just tee it up…I think a lot of females who become mothers and in divorces really screw the dynamics of the family unit and the kid pays the price and well I just want the children today ADULT tomorrow to know there is one kid here (me) so call ADULT who has their back trying to figure out what the heck happen that weekend-
it is what the adults on the fire line should be doing—even young adults like Donut…
So to measure love with those kind of questions- than perception falls into play—I like a straight shooter even if I am sensitive but I do not like when someone says something to me to make me THINK a way they want but as time unfolds they are behind my back not expressing TO ME their true intentions and I am too smart and I watch and catch it all. Reverse psychology works in this modern bullshit world versus being a straight shooter, Woodsman is what I have seen with folks who have peculiar personalities that say “friends” yet cannot even be human enough to TALK to you to work things out just try to bullshit ya and behind your back be orchestrating their angles and agendas. From this point on in my life I know who my true friends are and ones who just want me to be there but really do not comprehend what the true meaning of a friend is…it is not someone you don’t allow to be who they are and you want them to be who you want them to be…Once I do hit the trails with my back pack only no one will ever see me again…my times here will have ceased…people I knew will be no more…hope for more answers is the only reason I have stuck around…and I once again be the desert walker on a solo journey to the unknowns away from any modern society…and Woodsman, going out there I know who in my life loves me—no question or measure chart needed—these 19 men and the other losses deserve that kind of closure to know they were loved enough to open up with the information so this area can be closed but maybe some people do not want it closed and maybe they want to keep this area open as a place to go but I am one who feels eventually the answers WILL come out and this page will only be a campfire spot of “hello” reunions—“how are you”…and we all moved on yet we cannot move on until the ones who know do the right thing.
http://www.reverendfun.com/index.php?date=20110304
This is interesting – I have also been feeling extremely frustrated and angry with this whole thing, Not at the posts or people on this site, although I don’t always agree with everyone. Over the last few weeks I have been trying to figure out why the frustration and anger. I guess the obvious answer is because we tragically lost 19 firefighters and that should not of happened then or ever again. That is something none of us can change and Bob has the bottom line on this, had they followed the well established 10,18’s, and LCES they would be here today. I get that, but I still want to know the answers to why they left the safest place on the fire to move into Yarnell. It’s important that we keep shaking the tree to see what else falls out. At the same time I think this adds to my frustration, why wasn’t this done by the SAIT? I must say that in my opinion RTS is right on – they(SAIT) had the story then found or created the facts to support that. I have also seen this done several times in my career.
So I continue to struggle with the frustration even though lots of good work has been and continues to be done by the folks on this site. I have come to the conclusion that my anger and frustration not only comes from the loss of 19 firefighters, but really comes from the lack of sharing the real lessons learned from this tragic event. We have identified some lessons over the last 2 plus years, but I am thinking we need to pull those together so the FF’s that are lurking in the weeds can learn from them, even if its just on a personal/crew level. Some of the lessons learned will be nothing more than enforcing or reinforcing things that already exists, for example’
The 10, 18’s and LCES (Bob)
Communications impacting operations must be done on assigned channel, not via cell phone or crew net (RTS)
The Crew Supervisor is ultimately responsible for the safety of his/her personnel
Differences between a Safe Zone and a Deployment Zone and appropriate sizes for each
Then there are some that don’t already exist but need to’
A standardized MAYDAY procedure
Using handcrews for structure protection
Using a Crew Sup as a Division with his own crew as a resource
These are just some examples off the top of my head, I know that there are lots of variables in the last two, maybe those are more “watch outs” than anything else.
Identifying the lessons we have learned on this site seems like a positive way to start the new year. Hopefully sharing those lessons will keep FF’s safer in the coming seasons.
Exactly Norb. Your input was excellent as was the native German, Norbert Hoefler. Norbert informed us a lot about Donut whom he had interviewed. He also showed us a map of locations of people during the fire.
https://plus.google.com/photos/112068160404980104272/albums/5922175655744920065/5950680775932673314?pid=5950680775932673314&oid=112068160404980104272&authkey=CNDDgaG_gt2UAQ )
Reply to Norb Szczurek post on
December 29, 2015 at 11:08 am
>> Reply to Norb Szczurek
>>
>> Over the last few weeks I have been trying to figure out
>> why the frustration and anger. I guess the obvious answer
>> is because we tragically lost 19 firefighters and that should
>> not of happened then or ever again.
Of course that is part of it.
But it’s the ‘ever again’ part that keep adding to the frustration.
What?… are we really the ONLY ones who care enough to keep trying to make the ‘ever again’ part an actual reality, as much as humanly possible?
Seriously?
As for the past few weeks ( and frustration/anger ), you can’t discount what has actually happened.
We have ACTUALLY now seen proof positive that SOMEONE was tampering with crucial evidence in this case ( via the information in the autopsy reports ) and we also ACTUALLY now have proof positive that a lot of people know a lot of things and they have, for many many months ( years now? ) just been CHOOSING to not speak up.
The drive-by press release by Holly Neill, the subsequent statements and admissions by Eric Marsh’s own widow, the clarification from Bob Powers about the video and how real it probably is, the continual discovery that RTS knows more than he’s ever williing to say, and, of course, even MORE from Joy about these great gobs of people who KNOW things and her continual urgings to them to SPEAK UP.
So what do you call “Conspiracy Theorists” when the evidence is already emerging that they have ALWAYS been mostly RIGHT?
One of the antonyms of “theoretical” is the word “factual”.
“Conspiracy Factualists”?
Thanks also for the rest of your ( as usual ) well-thought out and well-spoken comments/suggestions.
Fred came on some time ago—we never knew if he were a she or whether that person was real. The comments Fred made were quite off base. I have not bothered too much with them and never thought they had much credence. If you review some of the old postings he will be there. Likely Elizabeth the lawyer can point right to them–and maybe a few others here if you are interested.
Fred schoefler has been on this site, disguised as rts. For those who do not know. The latest thing I saw from Fred was just a few weeks ago he posted a comment wanting the video of the “gm crew carriers being rescued” returned to public (via you tube I think) Also, didn’t Schoefler give a presentation alongside another former participant from this site?
Corrections. Fred Schoefler commented on a video posted via vimeo by someone named Colby Drake.
OK Gary the thing that drives me nuts and should every one else is the on simple fact.
Well qualified fire fighters have made the stupid fucking decisions broke the rules and have killed those under them.
That is the real cold hard facts they should have known better they were trained to know better and yet in the end for all the different reasons or lack there of they Fucked up.
Then look at all those that didn’t fuck up they were not better qualified they just put the rules first and followed them. They were the ones that went home and RETIRED.
So the real question is why did they not follow the rules they knew them they trained and used them and then they didn’t??????????????????
And the real ‘action item’ that still remains in all of this is whether or not it was all about ‘attitude’ towards the safety rules of one’s own profession… and whether Granite Mountain was ‘unique’ in considering them to be ‘Hillbilly’ and ‘optional’.
If their attitudes were NOT ‘unique’… then HOW MANY OTHER Hotshot crews are still ‘out there’ that are nothing but an accident waiting to happen?
THOSE are the ones there’s still time to do something about.
If one even cares about their employees NOT dying, that is.
Once again–the GMHS route is almost a mandatory hike for new firemen to see what happened and why. This hike would indeed be an eye opener and save lives. Why we need that place as a training area–let them transverse that manzanita to get a real feel of the dangers of getting caught in it while flanking a wild fire. Nothing like hands on and knees down experience going through that shit to make a believer out of you. Go down and up that decline from the two track and see how you balance through those boulders and tangled brush.
We witness the game of no blame rather than these cookie cutter committee people removing their eye blinders to make a learning experience and educating people of what went wrong and how to avoid it. Small memorial yes, big teaching and training area a priority and boo coos of money on that where it belongs. Put that memorial big in Prescott where those men are from and their families can be near. Little crosses and big training above the Helms to my way of thinking and I can bet my Stetson that a majority of Yarnellites would agree with me.
Sonny… now that the PUBLIC Arizona State-sponsored Yarnell Hill Memorial Board has decided to stop breaking the existing Arizona Open Meetings laws and has decided to finally publish the minutes of their Septermber, 18 2015 meeting here…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
We also now know they there will be NO FULL PUBLIC ACCESS to the actual place where they Hotshots deployed… and there will only be some kind of small pre-defined TRAIL down from what they are calling the ‘observation point’ up on the ridge to somewhere near ( but not too near ) the deployment site.
In other words… it is still not clear if ANYONE will ever be allowed to walk ANYWHERE but on this small ‘trail’ they intend on doing themselves.
A small subset of family members has now SUCCEEDED in ‘locking down’ the area the way they wanted to.
The vote was 8-2 in FAVOR of NOT allowing full public access to the actual deployment site.
Oddly enough ( and actually to their credit )… the ONLY 2 dissenting votes came from the only two actual FIREMEN serving on the board.
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney
and
Former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.
So it ended up NOT being any actual FIREMEN’S decision at all what the ACCESS was going to look like.
The votes to LIMIT ACCESS were led by State representative Karen Fann and Public Board Member Amanda Marsh ( who represents the families ).together with 6 other non-firemen Board members also in support of limiting access.
Followup…
This PUBLIC Yarnell Memorial Site Board STILL continues to violate Arizona Open Meetings laws and they have STILL not published the minutes of ALL of their meetings…
…but at least they finally published the September 18, 2015 minutes where the Board actually did vote 8-2 to DENY the PUBLIC full access to the deployment site area.
Thanks WTKTT for posting this and keeping us informed of the committee actions. You pointed out the desires of the firemen vs. the desires of those other civilian board members. Their decisions are certainly not what the GMHS would want and I seriously doubt they are even close to what the majority of the loved ones want. You notice that the loved ones, friends, locals and especially firemen have not been polled on this important decision. It is just a little collection of non-firemen, some whom have special interests, and others who think they know something that go along with special interests. It is a farce to behold and a detraction from the truth when all is considered. Prescott and Yarnell will both loose and these people should be called Yarnell’s folly group.
Amazing how little they have researched and know, but the dollar is almighty and king cover up has them addled.
It reminds me of the million dollar overpass that was put in on I-10 seven miles west of Lordsburg, NM when I was still a Senior in High School of 1961. Through eminent domain, it took our land, destroyed our home and rock shop business, set my Dad and set the family out into the desert in a cold windy February month, all because some small Yahoo group thought it a good idea. Truth is, it was and is an OVER PASS TO NOWHERE. There is nothing there now but desert on each side and the Gary town that it supposedly led to was no more than a railroad side track. A simple side road with cattle guard for the dirt road to the rail road would have sufficed, but then a million dollar project made someone some money at the expense of tax payer dollar and destruction of our home and livelihood.
As a side note, Dad never accepted the $2500 they offered to settle with him and in the finality of it all never got a dime. But someone did make a bundle putting in the overpass to nowhere. He soon after died of cancer and broken since he had invested $100,000 of hard earned money from years before and the previous sale of a business he had built over a 20 year period.
Those are some of the roads to hard knocks that Gary Olsen talks about. Also why I hate to see a small group so adamant to disturb people with private land and Yarnellites that have been here for years and years–infringed upon to the benefit of a few who under the guise of honoring the GMHS are doing no more than filling their pockets and feeding their egos. We ought to put them on a memorial placque as well so we can remember their folly.
A travesty considering tax payer money is paying for this and that all firemen and all persons who pay taxes ought to have free access to this site to see how this bungled operation killed those 19 men, destroyed half the town of Yarnell and left a legacy of dying elders after the fire. It is obvious the idea is to hide the fuck up and play along with the no blame game as if those ninnies that ran the show were completely innocent.
There are two on that memorial, if they were alive, that would be brought up to account for their screw up that killed 17 men and endangered the survivor Donut, namely Marsh and Steed and I doubt the charges would be light. I doub if that information would be on the memorial because someone has already blamed God and laid this thing to an accident. It was no accident but plain outright screw up of operation from day one, Friday, June 28, 2013. It smells of graft to my way of thinking and bilking of the tax payer. This is even continuing into the memorial thing that is another tax payer event. The whole thing stinks and until cleaned up will continue to stink.
any additional information WWTKTT on Holly’s earlier this year article about Marsh being at Helm’s—any proof or documents or source come out of that?
If Marsh was at Helm’s — what time did he end up with the men?
That article back then haunted me to this day—needs more resources and knowledge
With Holley’s article did Marsh Leave the questionable “bomb proof” place of the Helm’s knowing he had committed a gross error of following commands or as they tell us suggestions to order the men down to the Helms. He must have known he was committing suicide to leave there and hook up with his crew.
Does Amanda really represent all the families or just her own purpose for pushing this thing to be a private land deal and memorial off of tax payer money–how more selfish can you get–and does Karan Fan represent all the tax paying public? I would like to see some signatures and responses from all the family members and a response from an informed public after all the facts of this case are revealed.
In a free and democratic society we do not secretly advance projects that are financed by the general public and their tax dollars. These people are tunnel vision sufferers, else they would be pushing for better equipment, more training, a training site there, and exposing the real reasons those GMHS died. They would be interested in the future fire fighters lives and safety after seeing the gross errors of this catastrophic fire fighting effort and its obvious failures.
Reply to Robert the Second post on December 28, 2015 at 1:02 pm
NOTE: This is regarding the specific issue from the thread below about whether the Blue Ridge Hotshots did anything to ‘save citizen lives’ on Sunday, June 30, 2013… as RTS originally claimed in this post…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-320550
On December 25, 2015 at 3:29 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
———————————————————————————————
Brian Frisby and tHe BRHS are one of the most competent HS in the nation as far as I’m concerned. They were instrumental in providing the needed leadership that day as well as saving citizens’ lives that day.
———————————————————————————————-
>> RTS has now said…
>>
>> I can’t show you any “evidence they lifted any fingers to help citizens.”
>> And no one offered any evidence in the form of photos of the BRHS lifting
>> any fingers, but I’ll keep digging for you. If someone sees and hears something
>> firsthand, like those OTHER WFF’s that were there and they tell you what they
>> saw and heard, that suffices for proof to me as a FACT. And those OTHER WFF’s
>> then passed that FACT on to me. But that’s NOT good enough for you, is it?
No, it’s not.
You just ‘danced around’ again and STILL didn’t answer my (original) simple question.
WHAT is it that you have even HEARD they ( Blue Ridge ) might have done that day that could, in any way, be construed as “saving citizens’ lives”?
What FACT are you referring to with your “OTHER WFF’s then passed that FACT on to me” statement?
I’m (always) perfectly willing to admit there’s something I don’t (yet) know.
So just TELL me what I don’t know.
WHAT ‘FACT’ are you talking about?
WTKTT,
How about FACTS instead?
Like these actions that OTHER WFF witnessed the BRHS doing that day:
By telling people to hurry up and leave because the column is shifting to the south.
By telling people to hurry up and leave because the column is shifting even more to the south.
By telling people to hurry up and leave because the column is now beginning to stand up and shifting even more to the south.
By telling people to hurry up and leave because the column is leaning over and into Yarnell.
By telling people to hurry up and leave because the column is really leaning over and into Yarnell.
By telling people to leave now because the column is really leaning over and into Yarnell.
By telling people to get the f**k out NOW because the column is really leaning over and into Yarnell.
By telling people to stop packing stuff in their cars, just get in the the f**king car NOW and get the f**k out of here NOW because the column is coming into Yarnell.
NOW people, NOW!
How about these? Is that enough for your satisfaction? Clearly paraphrasing and from memory since I wasn’t taking notes on those occasions.
So then, now how about addressing this for me?
I posted: “And I am NOT PREACHING. If you want to read some preaching, just go to some of Sonny’s or Joy’s posts. They’re preaching a whole lot lately, but you give them no flak.”
How about providing an answer on the disparate treatment you accord me and no other. You are soooo hypocritical at times, railing on me about not answering something, yet you do it regularly when it’s not to your liking.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on December 28, 2015 at 3:04 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> How about FACTS instead?
>> Like these actions that OTHER WFF witnessed the BRHS doing that day:
( Insert list of a bunch of double/triple hearsay items. )
It is documented that, at the last minute, Frisby and Brown ‘bombed around’ the Youth camp in the Ranger yelling at other FFs to “get the hell out”.
Those aren’t ‘citizens’.
The only thing in your list that appears to have anything to do with ‘saving citizens’ was the last paraphrased/hearsay item…
———————————————————
By telling people to stop packing stuff in their cars, just get in the the f**king car NOW and get the f**k out of here NOW because the column is coming into Yarnell. NOW people, NOW!
———————————————————-
WHERE did this happen?
Were one or two of them just yelling out the window of the Crew Carriers as they went out Shrine Road?
Or did this have nothing to do with the CREW or the CARRIERS?
Are you suggesting this was something Frisby and Brown did as THEY also traveled east on Shrine Road in the UTV Ranger?
That they were either just yelling at people they saw, or something?
There is absolutely no mention of ANY of this in their own signed testimony.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> How about these? Is that enough for your satisfaction?
Nope. Not enough detail to even consider it ‘evidence’.
What OTHER WFF are you referring to?
If you are still maintaining they had interactions with ‘citizens’… then WHERE did these ‘interactions’ take place?
The only thing in the evidence record that comes close to backihg up what you are saying has always been this mysterious blurb in one of the unnamed Blue Ridge Hotshot ( signed ) Unit Logs…
——————————————————————————–
Concerned public begins approaching vehicles demanding answers
about evacuations and asking US why WE are leaving. We respond
there is no official evacuation in progress but we recommend you to be ready.
——————————————————————————–
That is from the SIGNED testimony of one of these (unanmed) Blue Ridge Hotshots and that does NOT match what YOU are reporting.
Far from it, actually.
The testimony from one of the Blue Ridge Hotshots above indicates that even though they KNEW they were already told to “get the hell out” out of Dodge… and even after concerned citizens had to approach THEM with questions and they were making no effort of their own to approach them… they still treated the safety of these citizens as pretty much none of their concern and only told them ( to their faces ) they should probably get READY to leave.
How do we now jive your ‘hearsay’ with this SIGNED TESTIMONY from one of the Blue Ridge Hotshots?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Clearly paraphrasing and from memory since I wasn’t taking
>> notes on those occasions.
What ‘occasions’ are you referring to?
How MANY ‘occasions’ (plural) are you referring to?
Did you actually conduct interviews, or something, or were these ‘occasions’ just “shooting the breeze” with these mysterious ‘OTHER FFs’?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> So then, now how about addressing this for me?
>>
>> ( Insert more whining about being asked to keep the volume
>> down on the outright preaching ).
I already did ( address that for you ).
I am NOT the moderator of this site.
Post whatever you like and if the actual moderator of this site lets it appear then it’s none of my concern. I will tolerate it.
If it matters we cab get video sound recorder of homeowners accounts that on shrine and throughout glen ilah mainly foothill and deertrack and manzanita had a blue helmet man on quad come through and another in a truck but I showed Cordes and Blue Ridge pics and Cordes was not picked out but brhs blue helmet men were
Joy… thanks to you… there is ALSO that photo now which definitely seems to show Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball standing there in the middle of the road at the intersection of Lakewood and Fountainhill in Glen Ilah, just a few hundred yards west of the Ranch House Restaurant.
There were some residents there at that time, already evacuating.
We still don’t know WHY Cory Ball stopped there or what he might have said to anyone.
It might have just been part of that ‘scouting mission’ he was (apparently) still on at the time as ordered by SPGS1 Gary Cordes to try and find potential emergency dozer line opportunities there near Glen Ilah.
There was a ‘good’ view of the fire in the distance, approaching Glen Ilah, from that location where that photo was taken.
Brent Yadon is in the VA right now but he said blue helmet man stopped where you said when Sherriff Posse Jeep had stopped by his home.
if I can get the video footage of homeowners talking- can someone put it together and place it on here like dropbox?
Do it by street accounts?
Brent today when visited will come to site and view it and he said he only saw sheriff posse not blue helmet but there is pictures of that in front on Brents as I gave them here awhile back. Sounds like brent may decide to share first hand and if he don’t..he don’t but sonny asked him to stop by and give first hand account versus us but he did not see blue helmet but did have sheriff jeep posse there
And as far as me posting RTS…most skim my stuff but I am pretty sure we all READ your posts.
WTKTT,
Well now, you’re finally going to get what you want.
Indeed, it appears that your ‘illusory superiority’ and your imagined higher virtues are mere hypocrisy, and spring from your delusional, selfish desire to be superior to the rest of us.
You can find yourself some other Whipping Boy and scapegoat.
I’m done.
.
If at all possible… please try and encourage your Blue Ridge Hotshot friends to find a way to talk openly and honestly about their experiences and involvement in what will always remain a historic National Tragedy.
Brian Smith had looked at photos and he too said it was not Cordes who made it to media saving them but brhs did.
Praise Him.
Always.
And praise RTS too for his comment.
I agree.
Why not pick on me.
In a few weeks we will have information to pick on.
If you read my posts, no preaching, just opinion. I am just as happy if you are an atheist (maybe more so) than if you are a so called Christian. Your belief in this country belongs to you and mine to me. And WTKTT comments cover me as well as all others so I am not offended but take your comments and all comments here to good consideration and good intent.
I indeed am slow, but old. This investigation by all the good men and women on this site is slow also. The facts are having to be squeezed out in a dribble but pennies make dollars and in time we reap the benefits of truth.
One truth we have learned from this site was made famous by Jack Nicholson, and indeed SOME CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH.
If you feel like Jack in ONCE OVER THE COO COOS NEST then you are probably right at home on this site.
I have said it many times that I do this for the children and I always felt the children who are now growing and being guided a new life and a new way will one day be adults and I hope parents, aunts/uncles, grandparents are clear that these kids one day become adults and there may be missing elements revealed from such because I am a child of trauma and I hold on to many missing elements that even though I have the knowledge it does not solidify another’s future to remain in prison but it may help avoid it from happening again but educating what I know so it may take a decade or two to see the truth clarified with more details yet in all my heart I do know the TRUTH will PREVAIL. I also believe these children DESERVE the truth. I get sick to my stomach when the adults in this are not bold and trying to figure out what happen. If I am THE EYEWITNESS and I am saying something ain’t right— look and see is this eyewitness talking out of her ass or is there something there- WWTKTT is right on to QUESTION anyone who does come forward with information without documentation. RTS is right to protect the information he received because it has not been easy to obtain the information we seen as well and we too give choices to the folks yet always encouraging them to SPEAK UP! We all are right to question ANY pop-in visits making a heavy statement without proof as we have seen people do here on IM and over at Bill Gabbert’s. Gary is correct to be so damn BOLD in his way of delivering information- Bob Powers shines when he emphasizes the 10 & 18 because I was like who the hell is this man with this 10 $ 18—LEARN IT AND LIVE IT and really put it in your hard hat- SITTA and his bootcamp is an area we need to focus versus slowly dribbling there because we have a platform in private and I am just awaiting our interviews and it will be documented there so lookie loos in the shadow cannot come to this page and gain knowledge and judge and hate like I have seen…MARTI, Marti, Marti is the soul of the investigation of photos and her expertise has been so appreciated and she has taught the hikers a lot. J Stout’s pop-ins I wish they were more and who is Fred? I still have not got that one figured out. Is he on here? Thank you everyone for the continued efforts and in a few short weeks I will be sitting down with video camera and sound recorder to record a milestone interview which should of been done by investigators—Thanks to Ered Matthews for his continued contributions as well. He does not come here but he honors the 19 and all involved- Katie Cornellius too.
I have a feeling my father’s passing will bring new information because he knew a lot of bold people, old loggers and fire folks so when that memorial happens I sure hope to see more there-
I just learned from my cousin Robbie he did not know about me and the fire but knew the 19 men died and a mechanic in Flagstaff knows some details and he is going to look into that for me. Some where and some day it will come forward and once it happens my heavy heart may be able to pump and flow healthy again but this bullshit of sweeping it under the rug after too many fire fatalities—that’s one hell of a huge rug by now—
SPEAK UP!
Adh Mor Ort Joy–ni dealraitheach –Good luck Joy, not likely.
Bringing this to the Top it is way down there for WTKTT On the BR Crew.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-320773
And here is my Reply”brought to the top” as well…
NOTE: The discussion below is more of that ‘revisit’ of what Blue Ridge did or didn’t accomplish that Sunday in Yarnell…
>> On December 28, 2015 at 2:06 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth said…
>>
>> Reply to Bob Powers post on December 28, 2015 at 12:31 pm
>>
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> 1. Assigned to improve the line for Burnout. That is a legitimate work assignment
Of course it is. Who said it wasn’t?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> 2 Miles of tractor line that is also a lot to cover.
You are totally wrong.
Did you read the previous post?
The ‘dozer line’ they were finally asked to work on after sitting on their asses all day was only 0.68 miles long.
Just 1,202 yards / 3,605 feet.
But even with that short line… it was TOO LATE in the day. By the time they even got ‘spread out’ on the dozer line it was pretty much time to RTO, abandon the assignment, and evacuate.
So they did not ACCOMPLISH anything at all.
THAT is/was the whole POINT of this re-visit of what Blue Ridge did or didn’t do that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I agree it is a easer job than building line but still a job that needed done before
>> Burn out which I believe they were assigned to as well. That just did not happen.
Thank you. Now you are CORRECT.
It “didn’t happen”.
Blue Ridge didn’t really DO anything at all but BEGIN to undertake the assignment before they RTO’ed and evacuated.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> 2. The crew followed their assigned retreat to the trucks and were out of
>> the way in quite a short time.
Yes… but only because they came Hauling-ass-RUNNING “out of the woods”, as described by eyewitness Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon.
I am GLAD they had the good sense to RUN.
If they had just been ‘strolling along’ on that RTO exit like they had all the TIME in the world ( like GM was on that first leg of their journey south )… there really *might* have been a few more bodies to haul out Yarnell that weekend.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I would say it was not as close as you believe and if the trucks did not get
>> singed and the crew did not get first degree burns and they had time to
>> convoy out then it was not a live or die run to the trucks and drive out.
Nothing you just said actually ended up happening to either the men or the trucks involved in that other operation just west of the Youth Camp… ( the Harper Canyon crew ) but ADOSH still issued a ‘near-entrapment’ citation for THAT situation.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> To much melodrama here for what actually happened.
There are still a lot of details lacking for what DID actually happen out there by that Youth Camp.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They had a PLAN they followed the PLAN and they got out safely to the Highway.
So did the men working in Harper Canyon.
Their ‘plan’ ( blow the sirens on the trucks at the Youth Camp to indicate “get out now” ) was executed, and they ‘evacuated’ according to their PLAN and no one actually died.
That’s GOOD.
But ADOSH issued a ‘near-entrapment’ citation for ONE group of FFs that came “running out of the woods” in that area… but not the other.
>> Bob Powers…
>>
>> GOOD JOB BLUE RIDGE
Yes. I am as GLAD as I can be they didn’t end up more bodies that would have had to have been hauled out of Yarnell that weekend…
…but still… let’s not try to rewrite history.
The Blue Ridge Hotshots ( the CREW ) did not ACCOMPLISH anything at all that day except eventually ‘save themselves’ and stay alive.
Well we have been here before WTKTT.
What you said above is pure Bull Shit.
The two incidences are totally different and there was no unplanned occurrence by BR. The other crews were not relying on a Look out and puled out only after they were warned to do so..
The Tractor line was to have been 2 Miles long that did not happen.
They were suppose to fire out that did not happen due to the fire.
They did and were improving the Tractor line when they were told to pull back to the trucks.
They were doing what they were told. Prove to me they did nothing all day.
Check the tracked locations of Brown he was with the Crew on the Tractor line.
Did the Tractor hold them up from starting the Line Clean up and prep.
You normally do not walk along behind a tractor building line.
Rolling Rocks, Falling trees the tractor backing up and moving forward to name a few.
You are the one trying to wright a different history than what happened.
You are way off base here and I know you have never been on a Fire Line during its construction or have the number of combined years I, RTS and Gary have.
Your conclusions do not meet the test here. They were not in any danger they followed the plan they evacuated to their trucks and left the fire no flames were lapping at their ass. those are the facts no rewrite there WTKTT.
You are trying to lecture professional Fire Fighters You have no background to do so. You are assuming more than you understand.
Blow your sirens is not a safety plan.
FF Order# 7 Maintain Prompt Communications????
I believe all the Fire Fighters on here will stand with me not you on this one.
Blue Ridge had Look Outs— Blue ridge had Radios ” Communications”— Blue Ridge had a plan– a Escape route– and a SZ —all that worked.
Yes a Good Job you could ask for nothing more.
ADOSH as much agreed no yellow flags no violations no citations
They investigated it and found no fault with BR.
That means a Radio or Close enough for verbal NOT DONE————–
The last line should have been under Blow your sirens is not a safety plan.
That means a Radio or close enough for verbal NOT DONE——
Also sitting at a truck where you can not see the fire is no LOOK OUT——–
WTKTT
Replying to your BS down below.
First—-A trigger point is the worst thing to hang your hat on in a changing fire situation as is proven over on over on this fire.
Buy waiting for a trigger point you lose control of all the other factors that drive a wild land fire.
Weather Fuels and Topography. along with the Burning period.
If the Fire changes direction and increases in intensity waiting for it to hit a Trigger point is wreck less and not a good indicator of when you should get the hell out of there
The trigger points became the defining factor of almost entrapping several crews. Causing the late call to evacuate the residents and
severely misjudge the capability of the fire to out run the anticipated
spread.
A lookout should be more concerned with the changes in the Fire the predictions of weather change the immediate change in the wind and if the fire has switched in direction and intensity. NOT A TRIGGER POINT.
Never ever in my entire carrier did I ever set a trigger point as a lookout or as a supervisor. I biased my decisions on moving to safety on all the Fire behavior training I had along with a plan of LCES.
You and any one else here want a lesson learned.
As a lookout never set a imaginary line in the brush TRIGGER POINT.
Your real trigger point to give your people time to get to a SZ is the Fire activity its self. The predictions of weather change and where you are.
Proven fact over and over Trigger points can be over run at the blink of an eye in highly flammable fuel a 20 MPH wind change can blow a fire into an inferno with intensity and spotting.
The Yarnell Fire indicators were all there.
Time of Day
Temperatures over 100 humidity’s low, wind predictions and change in directions due to storm cells
Fuel type and previous days activities.
Lots of indirect line or line not tied in.
The idiots that set some kind of trigger points were way behind the curve with all the predictions of weather and every thing you could see as a fire fighter happening was way outside there plan.
WE said it before people should have been pulled off the line by 1400
2 PM and evacuations should have started that morning.
Your Scenario is way out of proportion to the facts. Blue Ridge moved to their vehicles in a group. They loaded and left their tires were not melting with the flames up their ASS they had the time to move to the road well ahead of the Fire. Show where they were that close to being
overtaken by fire. When the fire turned on the indirect line they evacuated they were not trapped, the fire was not lapping at their asses
they got in their trucks and drove out they were never in a critical situation. The BR crew stayed ahead of the power curve and executed their escape route and left in their trucks ahead of the Fire.
As a Fire Fighter I never set trigger points I acted on current and expected Fire behavior on what was happening at any given time
had a plan and a SZ and– Short escape route—-.
Base all actions on current and expected Fire Behavior.
Know what your Fire is doing at all Times.
Keep informed on fire weather and forecasts, time of day, Temp, Humidity, wind, cloud fronts and predicted wind changes.
Trigger points never ever set one in brush fuel or Grass that is a fools day dream.
I will say one last thing the BR crew pulled out before any one else even thought about it. They saw the change and acted they did not count on some line TRIGGER POINT they acted on the Fire change and stayed ahead of the power Curve.
That’s my conclusion as an experienced Fire Fighter Should they have left sooner YES. Did they leave in time and safety YES.
Been There Done That –with room to spare, which BR had
Read the facts the fire turned the crew could see the Black smoke their Lookout ordered them to their trucks they left as a unit dose it say any where that the flames were lapping at their ass NO.
They had time to get to their trucks load and drive out was the fire so close it was blistering the Paint on their trucks NO.
While they cut it close they still had more time to spar than some of the other Eng.crews. This was not as close a call as you are making it out to be for BR. The were close but actually ahead of the power curve.
That is why they were never mentioned in the investigation and never in a position of entrapment.
That’s my professional opinion based on 33 years of Fire experience.
That same experience tells me Steed should have stayed right where he was based on what they could see the fire doing they were in the safe Black— why in gods name walk down into a brush filled canyon with the fire burning towards that canyon a half mile away??????
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 28, 2015 at 3:32 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Well we have been here before WTKTT.
>> What you said above is pure Bull Shit.
Yea… we have been here before, haven’t we? Many times?
Regardless… pushback is good. It allows conversations to continue in a medium like this.
Let me preface all other comments below by reiterating that I am as GLAD as I can be that no one had to haul any Blue Ridge bodies off that fire that day. I really am… and in that sense… yes… they did things RIGHT.
They went home from work that day, like they were supposed to.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The two incidences are totally different and there was no unplanned
>> occurrence by BR.
I ( me, personally ) believe there was.
The ‘unplanned occurrence’ was that no one warned them how close the fire was getting to the location where they had only started to work on a late-day assignment… and they had to ‘figure that out’ all by themselves with no help from no less than THREE different ‘lookouts’ that had been designated to be watching for these ‘trigger points’ that Gary Cordes had established.
If they had any clue about how fast that fire was moving in their direction BEFORE they had agreed to ‘spread out’ on that dozer line ( only to have to immediately RTO and haul ass back to their carriers )… then WHY would they have even agreed to the assignment?
So they ‘planned’ on getting some work done on that Cutover Trail, and THOUGHT ( erroneously ) they had TIME to do so.
The ‘unplanned occurrence’ was that the fire was much closer ( and moving much faster ) than they thought when they even agreed to take on ‘the assignment’
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The other crews were not relying on a Look out
Yes. They were.
Honestly, Bob, for the length of time you have been following this discussion I thought you had absorbed more of the details than you sometimes demonstrate.
I’ve pointed all this out before ( what’s in the EVIDENCE record ).
Feels like a number of times.
There were THREE LOOKOUTS designated for the crews that SPGS1 Gary Cordes told TLFD(t) Trainee Tyson Esquibel to ‘put to work’ out there in the Youth Camp / Harper Canyon area.
These same lookouts were then supposed to ALSO be watching out for the Blue Ridge Hotshots working on that ‘Cutover Trail’ when that assignment got made by SPGS1 Cordes very late in the afternoon and involved the same general area.
Both Gary Cordes and Tyson Esquibel VERIFIED this in their ADOSH interviews.
The THREE designated LOOKOUTS for ALL of those crews working on this PLAN of Gary Cordes’ were…
1. Gary Cordes himself… from a spot on Highway 89 north of Yarnell that ended up totally inadequate for performing any real LOOKOUT responsibilities for ‘Harper Canyon’ OR the ‘Youth Camp’ OR the ‘Cutover Trail’.
He set himself THREE different ‘trigger points’ and then proceeded to park his ass on a spot off Highway 89 where he couldn’t even really see ANY of his own ‘trigger points’ very well… if at all.
2. The Sun City engine crew that was assigned structure protection work at the west end of West Way, about in the middle of Yarnell proper but at the extreme west end of the structures there. They ended up on high ground out at what Tyson Esquibel told ADOSH was something called the “Prescott Mining Company”.
They were RIGHT HERE ( about 1/2 mile due southeast of the Youth Camp )…
34.222760, -112.755840
Please see the MAP that accompanies Tyson Esquibel’s ADOSH interview.
He WROTE ‘Lookouts’ on that MAP in BOTH of these places ( where Cordes was and where the Sun City Crew was ) in his own handwriting DURING his ADOSH interview.
3. Matt Keehner of the Peeples Valley Fire department was specifically assigned LOOKOUT duties for everyone working that area from a spot up on the side of Boulder Mountain itself. He was the first ‘Lookout failure’ of the three because he CAME DOWN after simply hearing the weather report but didn’t know what it meant.
From the PUBLIC MEDIA article…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: A Narrow escape: Peeples Valley firefighters recount that frightening day
Published: 6/30/2014 6:00:00 AM
http://dcourier.com/Main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=133345
——————————————————
Capt. Brandon had placed Peeples Valley firefighter Matt Keehner as a lookout on a hill of boulders where the fire line was supposed to end. The hill was between the firefighters and the fire. About 3 p.m. Keehner came down, telling Brandon he heard on the radio about a change in the weather but he was unclear about the nature of the change.
——————————————————
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> ( The other crews )
>> pulled out only after they were warned to do so..
The only warning the Harper Canyon crew got was the pre-arranged signal from Bob Brandon that he would sound the sirens on the engines if they needed to get the hell out of where they were. Designated LOOKOUT Matt Keehner had come DOWN from his excellent lookout position on Boulder Mountain and lost sight of the fire… but they didn’t know that until Bob Brandon hit the ‘sirens’.
These are the sirens we can HEAR in the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video where we also hear Eric Marsh reporting to some supervisor on the radio that Granite Mountain was “Coming from the heel of the fire”.
The other TWO LOOKOUTS for the men in Harper Canyon and, indeed, for Blue Ridge working nearby on the same project ( Gary Cordes on Highway 89 and the Sun City crew at the ‘Prescott Mining Company’ ) had both also already failed miserably in their ‘lookout’ responsibilities and there was no appropriate/timely warning from THEM, either.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The Tractor line was to have been 2 Miles long
More like THREE miles if you are talking about the plan from the MORNING of ‘burning something off later on Sunday evening’ all the way out to the anchor point.
The distance from the Youth Camp to where GM had been working was 2.90 miles.
>> Bob Power also said…
>>
>> that did not happen.
>> They were suppose to fire out that did not happen due to the fire.
Correct. There had also been absolutely no attempt on Blue Ridge’s part to do ANY ‘improvement’ to the ‘middle bowl’ dozer line that had been pushed that morning, even though they sat out there near it by they Carriers for most of the day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They did and were improving the Tractor line when they were
>> told to pull back to the trucks.
There is no real evidence they were able to do ANY real ‘improvement’ work at all on that ‘Cutover Trail’ before being forced to evacuate.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They were doing what they were told.
>> Prove to me they did nothing all day.
I already did… but if you need another SUMMARY… here’s a quick one…
1. The Dispatch record on Saturday night says ( unequivocally ) that Blue Ridge had accepted the Yarnell assignment and that they would RON in Camp Verde… but that they WOULD ARRIVE read to go to work in Yarnell at 6:00 AM.
2. They didn’t even leave the Comfort Inn hotel in Camp Verde unto 6:30 AM, a full half-hour AFTER the time they had previously already said they would “arrive” in Yarnell itself.
3. They didn’t actually ARRIVE for work ( in Yarnell ) until around 8:00 to 8:30 AM ( Depending on which Blue Ridge Unit Log you read ).
4. They had already missed the important early morning briefing at the YFD station where, had they been on time, they would then have possessed the same knowledge about “pre-determined safety zone” and the Boulder Spring Ranch that Eric Marsh received. There might even have been a ‘role-reversal’ that morning and Blue Ridge might have actually gotten the ‘nod’ to be the crew to go out west and do ‘anchor point’ stuff. Granite Mountain got assigned that task that morning because they were the ONLY one ( out of three ) Type 1 IHC crews ordered up the night before that had even showed up to the fire yet.
5. No one recalls them attending the NEXT important briefing at 9:00 AM up at the ICP. Their own Unit Logs say they had already been told ( by someone? Probably OPS1 Abel? ) to go ‘stage’ at the YFD and just wait for an assignment, so that’s why they missed THAT important briefing.
6. They sat around doing nothing at the YFD for an hour until Cordes asked Frisby to send Cory Ball out to the boondock to relieve HIM as DOZB/HEQB on the dozer that failed to show up that day with anyone red-carded OR with even a radio.
7. In the course of delivering Cory Ball… Frisby decided to restage the ENTIRE Blue Ridge crew out there in the Sesame Clearing area, even though the crew itself had still received no actual work assignment.
8. The Blue Ridge Crew Carriers arrived out at the Sesame Clearing area at 10:30 AM.
That’s where the Blue Ridge CREW would then just sit on their asses ( around their Carriers ) for upwards of the next 4 1/2 hours ( FOUR and ONE HALF hours ) doing absolutely NOTHING at all but waiting for someone to give them some kind of work assignment.
9. Later in the day… SPGS1 Gary Cordes asked the dozer to ‘push’ a line from the Sesame Clearing area NORTHEAST to the Youth Camp. Only when that dozer push was ‘completed’ ( even later in the afternoon ) was Blue Ridge FINALLY given an actual work assignment. They were asked to ‘improve’ that 0.68 mile ‘Cutover Trail’ dozer push when it was finished.
10. They proceeded to ‘gear up’ and get ready to do that, but by the time all the BR Hotshots got ‘spread out’ on the Cutover Trail to do any significant work at all… the fire was now charging their position and they had to RTO and haul ass off that Cutover Traile, back to their Crew Carriers now staged at the Youth Camp… and evacuate toot-sweet back to Highway 89 and down to the Ranch House Restaurant.
So other than maybe a few scrapes of some hand tools on that dozer push way too late in the day to make any difference to anything at all… it’s YOUR turn to show me WHERE in that SUMMARY they ( the BR CREW, specifically ) actually did anything useful that day.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 28, 2015 at 3:32 pm
** CONTINUED from previous message above…
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Check the tracked locations of Brown he was with the Crew
>> on the Tractor line.
>> Did the Tractor hold them up from starting the Line
>> Clean up and prep.
The evidence says that they didn’t even start ‘lining out’ on the ‘Cutover Trail’ until the dozer operator reported being completely DONE pushing that line all the way over to the Youth Camp, and then started heading back west.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You normally do not walk along behind a tractor building line.
>> Rolling Rocks, Falling trees the tractor backing up and moving
>> forward to name a few.
The only photo we have of the BR Crew actually beginning to ‘line out’ on the Cutover Trail ( one of Cory Ball’s photos ) doesn’t show them doing much of anything, even then, but they DO appear to be ‘walking along behind the tractor’… exactly what YOU now say you are NOT supposed to do.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You are the one trying to wright a different history
>> than what happened.
Nope. I’m just pointing out ( once again ) what the EVIDENCE says regarding what DID ( or did NOT ) happen that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You are way off base here and I know you have never been on a
>> Fire Line during its construction or have the number of combined
>> years I, RTS and Gary have.
That’s great. Ya’ll provide a good perspective to the ongoing discussion.
But you don’t have to have slung a hand tool on a fire line to just read this public evidence record. THIS part of ‘the story’ is already there… minus some details.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Your conclusions do not meet the test here. They were
>> not in any danger.
I beg to differ. I really do.
ALL of those men working out in that area who received no notice at all about what was about to happen to them ( because of the failure of no less than THREE different ‘lookouts’ ) were very much ‘in danger’ by 4:00 PM.
What I am GLAD about is that they ALL, somehow, managed to not DIE that day.
I am GLAD that the Blue Ridge crew had the good sense to come RUNNING off that Cutover Trail that afternoon, and not just ‘strolling along’ towards their Carriers.
They didn’t have time for a ‘stroll in the woods’, at that point.
They NEEDED to HURRY ( and they DID… as FAST as they could, thank goodness ).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> they followed the plan they evacuated to their trucks and
>> left the fire no flames were lapping at their ass.
You don’t need flames ‘lapping at your ass’ in order to ALREADY be in ‘danger’.
You know that.
See below about listening to exactly what Frisby told Cordes over the radio about the ‘situation out there’ and how dangerous it had ALREADY become before they even left the area.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You are trying to lecture professional Fire Fighters.
I’m not trying to LECTURE anyone and I’m sorry if you are taking it that way.
I’m trying to tell you ( once again ) what the EVIDENCE records says, because you ( and others ) seem to either not be aware of what it ALREADY says… or you just keep forgetting what it already says.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> You have no background to do so.
>> You are assuming more than you understand.
You don’t need any ‘fire work background’ to read this evidence record and realize that the Blue Ridge CREW ( not talking about Frisby, Brown or Ball ) did basically NOTHING that entire day… and that there is no real ( currently verifiable ) evidence they ever lifted a finger to ‘save citizen’s lives’ that day, as RTS was recently asserting with a lot of “I heard someone say something” stuff that doesn’t even match signed testimony in existing Blue Ridge Unit logs.
The most IMPORTANT thing they did all day was to remember to “watch out for their own safety” and get themselves out of there alive.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Blow your sirens is not a safety plan.
Well… regardless… it probably saved the lives of those men in Harper Canyon.
We still don’t know if Darby Starr heard the sirens BEFORE or AFTER he, himself, got that ‘bad feeling’ out there.
There’s still a LOT we don’t really know about everything that went down that afternoon out there at that Youth Camp.
Bob Brandon and the other Peeples Valley FFs who were out there gave complete testimony and supplied MANY photographs ( and videos? ) to some ‘mysterious’ investigators just 48 hours after the tragedy ( and 48 hours BEFORE the SAIT was officially formed )… but ALL of that evidence has ‘mysteriously disappeared’ and was NOT supplied to anyone despite many valid FOIA requests to Arizona Forestry for “all investigation material related to the Yarnell Hill Fire”.
Withholding information from valid FOIA requests is a punishable offense.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> That means a Radio or Close enough for verbal NOT DONE
>> Also sitting at a truck where you can not see the fire
>> is no LOOK OUT——
They ( Brandon and Keehner ) DID ‘see the fire’ from where they were.
That’s why they executed the pre-determined ‘plan’ of hitting the sirens.
Keehner should NOT have come down from his designated LOOKOUT position as early as he did… but at least when they saw the fire coming over Cordes’ THIRD trigger point ( Cordes’ AW-SHIT ridge )… they did what they could to warn those other men.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> FF Order# 7 Maintain Prompt Communications????
>> I believe all the Fire Fighters on here will stand with me
>> not you on this one.
And what ‘stand’ are you saying I’m making with regards to FF Order #7 and how it might differ from whatever it is you are thinking about it?
The failure of all THREE LOOKOUTS for that area was not that they could NOT ‘Maintain Prompt Communications’ if they needed to. Their FAILURE was not to notice what the fire was really doing and WARN the crews they were supposed to be ‘looking out for’. And that includes SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
Matt Keehner ABANDONED his LOOKOUT position ( the best of the THREE ), and the evidence record says they ( He and Brandon ) didn’t even bother to TELL the poor bastards out in Harper Canyon that he wasn’t even ‘up there’ anymore.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Blue Ridge had Look Outs—
WHO, specifically… and WHERE, specifically?
The ONLY reason the RTO “get back to Carriers ASAP” order came from Frisby is because he and Truheart Brown got the ‘feeling’ they should take a trip in the UTV north in the Sesame area. They only got about halfway up that clearing and realized there was absolutely NO TIME to even attempt to do any more work on that ‘Cutover Trail’ and they better get their crew the hell off it before their escape route back the Carriers got ‘cut off’ by that fast-approaching fireline.
Frisby and Brown ( nor anyone else on that Cutover Trail ) were in a position to SEE this… UNLESS they had accidentally decided to take that little trip in the UTV when they did.
Didn’t YOU just say above… “Sitting where you can’t see the fire is NO LOOKOUT”?
If another 5 or 10 minutes had gone by WITHOUT them accidentally getting that ‘feeling’ they should put themselves in a better ‘lookout position’ than they were in… a lot of things might have been different.
Just take a moment to actually LISTEN to what Brian Frisby was telling SPGS1 Gary Cordes over the radio at the very start of Aaron Hulburd’s M2U00264 video, WHILE even the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers were only then emerging from the Youth Camp.
He was telling Cordes there were already MULTIPLE SPOTS all over the fucking place out where he was, and the wind was ‘pushing hard’ at that location.
I don’t care how you try to ‘spin it’, Bob.
Given those extreme conditions that day ( and, indeed, at that HOUR ), and the volatile fuel, and the chances for ‘area ignition’ out there… that’s getting into ‘close call’ territory and you know it.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Blue ridge had Radios ” Communications”—
>> Blue Ridge had a plan– a Escape route– and a SZ —all that worked.
Thank goodness… yes.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Yes a Good Job you could ask for nothing more.
>>
>> ADOSH as much agreed no yellow flags no violations no citations
>> They investigated it and found no fault with BR.
My… how quickly we forget.
ADOSH was NOT ALLOWED to interview ANY of the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
They WANTED to… very much.
They WANTED to know exactly what went down out there with THEM and whether there was any evidence that they, too, had ‘waited too long’ to get the hell out of where THEY were that afternoon and whether that might have been just ANOTHER bona-fide close-call in that workplace that day.
They were NOT ALLOWED TO TALK TO THEM and successfully make ANY of those determinations for themselves before they had to issue their findings.
The Blue Ridge Unit Logs only showed up from USFS days before ADOSH was scheduled to release their findings and even ADOSH pointed out that they were so filled with REDACTIONS as to make them ‘useless’ for proving anything one way or the other.
If ADOSH had been allowed to ACTUALLY interview those men ( the Blue Ridge CREW itself ), it would have been interesting to hear their individual take(s) on having to “come running like hell out of the woods” like the Harper Canyon crew also did that day.
It would STILL be interesting to hear them ( Frisby, Brown AND each of the individual BR Crewmembers ) talk openly and honestly about it all.
To this day… I wonder if some of that BR Crew ( not management ) talks about Yarnell using the ‘close-call’ terminology when “telling the story”.
I admit that when I said that I believe BR saved everyone they could possibly save that day, in hindsight I wasn’t basing it on facts known to me. I fell into a mind trap, as a wff, of basing it on what I hoped to be true. I actually know very little of BR activity that day.
I was attempting to build rapport with someone in order to convince them to have others ‘do the right thing’ and come forward…for whatever that’s worth.
Woodsman
I should add that I’m not flipping my position the other way and saying BR did anything wrong, I just don’t have the facts to make a determination.
Woodsman
Thanks for owning up to your statements. Too bad rts and Bob wont. How do you feel about the mouse nuts? Do you feel like helmets should be optional while riding or driving a utv?
OK Calvin—-EN’s mouth piece.
What have I not owned up to I stand by all my statements. AND Yes I bleed Green not Blue. I am proud to have lived and spent 67 years of my life in the Forest Service.
But I am in no way protecting Blue Ridge they did all the right things. ADOSH found no fault with their actions
They did their assignment as it was given to them.
If you had paid attention on here you would have noted that I did not protect my Dad either he failed to post a lookout. That cost him and the other 14 their lives.
Woodsman I hope has spent the Time reading all the Reports and Statements in the Documentation and Investigation Reports that WTKTT thinks I haven’t and likes to think he is a superior being.
Neither WTKTT or YOU have enough of any background in Wild Land Fire to understand the assignments and how they are carried out.
While I am at it here Calvin every body here has a right to use a name other than their own. Including you. We moved past the who is who after Elizabeth was eliminated for her Stalking of Peoples names and backgrounds and then attacking them.
Bob. The problem I have with you is that you will never admit it when you are wrong. You said the poster calvin was really elizabeth, and you were wrong. You knew then you were wrong and you still have my apologized. But I guess you have taken a new position, and now i. Am Elizabeth’s mouthpiece. Fuck you bob, happy new year
Calvin,
Should ff’s wear helmets when operating a utv? Yes, either a fire helmet or motorcross style. Anyone out of a vehicle engaged in suppression should always have their helmet on.
Now as to the ‘mouse nuts.’ Well I guess that’s saying that it’s no big deal. I don’t know if it is or it isn’t. I wear my lid and require those I’m responsible for to wear theirs when out of the a motor vehicle (non-aircraft.)
I believe one of the reasons people aren’t coming forward is because they don’t want to be ‘under the microscope.’ They believe that an instance such as this: observation of no helmet while operating a utv, will be used to paint them with a broad brush and come to the conclusion that they suck as a HS crew and may have contributed to the deaths… so they have clammed up! Just my opinion as you got me thinking about how to answer your question.
Thanks!
Woodsman
I do not much like atvs/utvs but have used them but the best person to ask this question to is retired firefighter and on Congress Fire Board/Term Exp: 2016 being born in 1933 makes him currently 82 year old local neighbor of mine Jack Adrian what a ATV/UTV can do to you as it recently changed his life…last I heard was he may not make it due to ATV accident…so YES to safety gear..but I was a stunt adrenaline gal in my day and depending on trick I wore won and it was usually when learning how to run super-fast and flip off the side of a building…as I learned it and did it over and over and KNEW it—I did not wear any safety gear once I was confident and focused to the art and style I was achieving for the stunt at hand…you do not see cheerleaders wear helmets and as cheerleaders we did some crazy tricks in the day—any stunt cheer gal knows what I am saying…safety until you got it–
so I am not a firefighter but from a civilian standpointit’s a toss up for me but not hearing Jack’s details yet I may change my thinking there…because he ain’t one to get into a spot like that so who knows how it played out.
I wore won=== I wore one
Woodsman. Thanks for responding. I do not k ow if rolled up sleeves are Co sidereal a mouse nut type of rule or not, but it amazes me that hotshot crews Co tinge to create youtube videos showing this occurrence. Are you guys aware that is how rts and Bob opened the dialogue that GMH were unsafe?
I am still bothered by the torches being used just above the Shrine that both Joy and I saw some time ago. Maybe that was BR and so they might have done a bit of work there. Strangely the continuation of that video is now on U tube showing a truck video immediately below that area and even Mark Danielson’s truck leaving the area (the tan pickup). Mark was the one believed to have committing suicide after the fire devastated his abode where he had resided a number of years. No body has been found and Joy and I searched areas he might have hiked to with a borrowed weapon.
Maybe that video of a burn out will reappear somewhere and I have no explanation of its deletion from U tube.
Sonny,
I’d like to know more about all the burn-out operations as well. That’s a real damn good reason to keep good communication with crew location and movements!
Woodsman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c75JUb3pKpY
This is the extension of the video that was deleted from You tube. Here you see Shrine Road and the video we looked at is just above the Shrine where the pavement ends and the dirt road begins. The wind was whipping the trees in the same direction and at the same velocity–this video is followed up and can’t be made more than 5-15 minutes after the one that was deleted. There is Mark Danielson’s vehicle we were able to identify in this video–Danielson is believed to have committed suicide shortly after the fire. His whereabouts unknown and bank accounts, etc untouched since the fire. What Joy and I saw on the left hand side of that dirt road was firefighters using drip torches and lighting bushes along the road. Well someone had that video removed and you can see that they did not want that to be seen. We could have downloaded the video but at that early stage of the investigation we did not know what those men were doing lighting fires there. Since both Joy and I have wished we had copied the video because we now understand what they were doing. Joys excellent memory tells me we saw it third week in July of 2013 so you can see we did not yet have the knowledge we have now gained from all our contacts with you firefighters.
Another thing we saw that was deleted on line was the document dated June 16, 2013 that set aside the 320 acres as a restricted area–that is the land a few widows have so persistently pursued to set aside as a restricted area for their own use as a memorial. I commented that whoever signed it must have been drunk and wrote the wrong date or else they knew it was going to be burned and had it restricted before hand. Someone told us that two weeks before the fire Helms had cleared around their place. Maybe there is no connection–but deleting that document certainly looked suspicious as did deleting that U tube of the men lighting along that dirt road. If you get the video we recognized it because of a low rock wall along the dirt road–we had hiked through there several times and knew the area — we had at first believed it was a peoples valley video where they were doing back burns. I hope someone is able to retrieve that video so the professionals on this site can analyze it.
Bringing up to the top:
RTS, I believe that you know some members of the BRHS very well that were at the Yarnell Hill fire. My conclusion is based on your strong defense of their actions that day (which I agree with.)
You said:
:Brian Frisby and tHe BRHS are one of the most competent HS in the nation as far as I’m concerned. They were instrumental in providing the needed leadership that day as well as saving citizens’ lives that day.”
And because you said this and I agree:
“We most definitely need to learn as much of what happened on all these fires to truly benefit from Lessons Learned.”
And because you said this and I agree:
“Those that hid and/or suppress the truth definitely pay a toll on their emotional, mental, and spiritual health. PTSD and its offshoots abound in various stages with these folks and the powerful yet subtle ‘triggers’ that remind them of the past do NOT just go away unless they’re admitted they exist and then dealt with.”
I said and asked this down below:
“Do you have any other strategies you can think of that would mitigate the fear of speaking up to benefit the future of wildland firefighting? I’ll throw out an easy example to help out: send out info to a anonymous po box, type written with no contact name on it – OR setup an interview with a reporter that would agree in writing to keep you anonymous. There’s 2 to get the thought going.
I know for a fact that firefighters are talking so the fear must not be that bad. Like you agreed to before, it has the potential to be adverse to people’s health to tuck it all away forever.
I know that you are close to people that were there (I can tell by the way you strongly defended BR’s actions, and I agree with your assessment there.) I want to know if you have any desire to help them find a way to get it off their chest and set the record straight. I believe the families of GM deserve that at the very least. I also believe future firefighters deserve that. I know you agree. How strong is your desire, if any, to find a way to make that happen?
Thank you
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Sorry, but I’m not gonna take the bait, however, I will contribute by providing a link to the comprehensive website for the (EMDRIA) International Association of the Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing therapy (EMDR).
http://www.emdria.org/?page=2
This is a very effective (PTSD) Post Traumatic Stress Therapy treatment that has worked successfully for MANY YH Fire survivors, e.g. WFF’s, WFF Supervisors, Yarnell residents, GMHS families, friends, and loved ones.
They all say they don’t know HOW it works, just that it works.
I’ll post a YouTube link below this to a television 20/20 segment that gives a very good overview of the therapy.
Woodsman,
Here’s the YouTube of the television program 20/20 segment titled: “EMDR: Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing – 20/20 Report.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTLLfdcJE0Q
You will hear testimonies from several PTSD victims, e.g. one female that was brutally raped and two Vietnam veterans and the woman that discovered the process.
AMAZING!
RTS,
It’s apparent to me that don’t have any desire for the truth to be told about Yarnell Hill – you won’t even engage in a conversation about any feasible way to make that happen. That’s a shame because I showed up to attempt to find out what happened so I can be a better line supervisor and pass knowledge onto others. I’ll be expecting my new, revised, super Nasa approved fire shelter any time now (like that will do anything but cost more money and create a false sense of security for those going forward.)
‘The System’ is alive and well!
I do appreciate the dialog, RTS. I’ll look at the bright side…I got a huge amount of super-bitchin’ quotes!!! So I got that going for me. Thanks!!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Well pack the bags Buckweat, we’re going on a guilt trip. Nice try. Taking lessons from WTKTT are you?
I’m doing my fair share revealing the truth about the YH Fire. Much more than you know!
If you’re willing to share an email address (NOT your personal one) I’ll send you what I’ve done so far on Human Factors Influenced the GMHS Fatalities.
Do NOT use your regular email address. Sign up for a NEW Yahoo or Hotmail or Gmail account.
[email protected]
This is the most depressed I have become, regarding what is going on on this site, since I joined it two years and four days ago.
And then invested 20 hours a week of my unpaid time contributing to it.
We have had plenty of fights during this time. But nothing like what I’m seeing/experiencing right now.
And this, after a pretty good stint over the past couple of months, at least as I had experienced it.
It has become a circular firing squad, this week, imho.
And I no longer feel safe saying much of anything, including this. And I don’t even have my job “on the line” regarding talking about this fire.
Congratulations, everybody.
Marti,
I apologize for any part I have played in making you feel uncomfortable here. My frustration with the entire Yarnell Hill fire boils over with me at times. I am often in the position to be responsible for wff under me and strive to learn all I can to keep them safe. It means a tremendous amount to me. A cover-up of this magnitude is shameful.
I also apologize to RTS.
Keep up the good fight and thank for your contributions! I hope my words have not diminished your determination to help in this matter.
Woodsman
“I apologize for any part I have played in making you feel uncomfortable here.”
No problem whatsoever with your contributions. No apologies needed at all.
I have really appreciated your comments here.
Don’t despair, Marti.
The current ’round of drinks’ might be because I asked Bob Powers to clarify for us WHY it is we can’t seem to know everything HE might know about this (supposed) video that captures the argument between Marsh and Steed.
That ONE piece of evidence still has the potential of solving what are still the MOST pressing ‘mysteries’ about what REALLY happened that afternoon.
I think Mr. Powers really did tell us everything he knows, just short of WHO was actually imparting that information to him.
I believe him when he says he didn’t even save the phone number in order to trace it back to a ‘source’… and that he has no way of actually re-contacting that person.
Somehow ( as things go around here ) that ‘shot off’ to ( yet another ) discussion of who really might have actually ALSO heard the same ‘argument’.
Enter RTS… with his comments that he actually believes the BR Hotshots who were driving the other vehicles reached down and turned the GM radios OFF, or just blocked out the GM Intra-Crew, or whatever it was he was really suggesting below.
I’m also the one who then asked RTS to please distinguish for us whether this was one more thing that he seems to KNOW ( from his obvious Blue Ridge sources ) or whether ( this time ) it was just what he THOUGHT happened.
He did that. He clarified that this was not just more ‘inside information’ coming our way and it’s what he honestly just believes those BR Hotshots might have done.
And I’m going to say this again for about the 20th time.
I ( me, personally ) still appreciate whatever it is that RTS has chosen to share with us regarding what he KNOWS… and I ACCEPT whatever his own self-imposed limitations are for sharing ALL he knows.
But even RTS has to realize that the rest of us get pretty frustrated hearing from anyone ( including the recent Ms. Holly Neill drive-by self-serving press release about cellphone records ) who just keeps ‘hinting’ that they have answers… but won’t tell what they really know.
There’s just way, way TOO MUCH of that going around… and for reasons that become increasingly ‘not understandable’.
So hang in there, Marti.
There really HAS been an awful lot of new ( verifiable ) information appearing lately and maybe we can all finish discussing THOSE things rather than dealing with these “I know but I can’t tell you” people.
I will clarify for you guys even more.
The person who called me would only say he was a fire fighter who knew the GM family’s and worked in the area.
That’s it except he thought that the info would be released in the Court proceeding which we now know is over and no court proceeding happened. I have hope this will show up but I am waiting like all of you.
I think maybe McDonough will dump in this new book nd then we will have to decide what is true or false????????
Some times when you are getting information you have to go with the flow my personality and giving my word are part of me. The one family member that Talked to me said the Attorney that was representing them had a lot of information that had not seen the light of day. I guess we wont see that either. Yes I am frustrated as well
I will say again if you want the reasons for the Fatalities.
It is easy to sit down and pick out the 10 and 18 and list he ones that were violated. The rest is just information, human factors, and maybe a Hail Mary added in.
It is and always will be the Crew leaders Marsh and Steed that failed the Crew by not Following the very rules that would have protected their crew.
LCES
TEN STANDARD ORDERS
18 SITUATIONS THAT SHOUT WATCH OUT
Every thing else is just the story information found and not found.
The crew ignored every thing and all the rules when they left the SAFE BLACK SZ.
For Gary and Woodsman
I retired in 1994 The Storm king disaster was that summer.
I read it got a little info on it decided they made a bad decision working down hill into a understory burn which as we all know is a real peace of shit to build line in.
Other than reading a little about it and the fact that I knew 3 of those that died I moved on. At that point I was tired of the FS was happy to be no longer employed and had no reason to linger there any more.
As you all know I got into Yarnell because GM memorial was July 9 which was the Day my dad died on the Rattle Snake Fire.
The rest of the story won’t change why the Granit Mountain HS Died.
They failed to Identify the Risks and Follow the rules.
THE 10 and 18
Woodsman you know that so dose RTS and the rest on here who have been or still are Fire Fighters.
Follow the rules every minute. Every Hour. Every day never let your guard down never ignore the 18. set your safety with LCES never stretch your safety beyond your control.
Memorize the 10 and use them with every decision. And every change.
The Best Fire Shelter is the 10 standard orders. PERIOD
Your Dad deserves a million dollar memorial easily as much as those being memorialized here. Now that we have the Yarnell precedent it behooves us to go back and do the same for all the wild land firefighters, not a bad idea. Maybe a Vietnam type wall in Prescott with all the names on it for their honor. I don’t like the idea of putting it here in an obscure spot that disturbs the natural flow of things as it were in Yarnell. People had enough here loosing homes, now we want to confiscate land, disturb private people and have a spot that will be scarcely visited considering its out of the way position. Why not put it right there on the court house lawn in Prescott where thousands visit every week and would have access to honor all the fire men who have lost their lives engaging these fires. That way even the bosses who did manage this fire can be reminded of their work as well and we as citizens will never forget the ultimate sacrifice these men made.
I ought to add that people tend to forget the loss of 70+ lives lost from Yarnell since the fire. That is nearly 4 times the loss of life that the Yarnell Fire caused on June 30, 2013. Certainly these people deserve mention since it is obvious that many if not most died as a direct result of the fire. The retardant drop of poisonous orange chemical emitting NH3 in the amount of 30 thousand gallons in our back yard facilitated the deaths of many of our elders here. I am not happy with my own health deterioration after the fire But then I am considered an elder at 71 and any comprising of my lung tissue is a bad thing toward my health–years of mining has already done enough damage there. Don’t use household ammonia without good ventilation. It exudes NH3, the same as that agent orange slurry retardant. NH3 destroys lung tissue that never regenerates. As a miner we used to break little silk covered vials of that ammonia shit to smell and cure dynamite headaches. We did not know the cure was also destroying lung capacity. These things you learn later, like my having over twenty cancers removed (I am getting another part of my nose cut off soon due to squamous cell carcinoma) because I worked in those Uranium mines and did not have sense enough to realize that later I would pay for my helping create the bombs and polluting nuclear light plants. Maybe I deserve it, but in those days I did not find or take the time to research the destructive health effects caused by radiation. These big business people are no different to the cigarette people. They want you to believe low grade uranium is safe and that agent orange slurry is inert. Bullshit.
Bob,
Thanks. Don’t count on McDonough telling anything even close to the truth in his book.
Agree.
I agree also.
If Donut is good at anything it is omission of facts. He and Dickman belong on the fiction shelves with their books.
A lie is predicated on the deceiver’s intent. Is an omission only a lie when there is an expectation of a truthful answer to a question, where the answer was deliberately used to hide the truth?
A deliberate omission can surely be considered a lie if the lack of information alters the outcomes. If you are withholding relevant information in order to sway a person’s judgment, then you are in fact lying.
The word ‘lie’ in any dictionary is, in essence: a false statement made knowingly and deliberately. But what about lying by omission?
Omission seems to become a lie when you intentionally hide something from someone. If you know what you are omitting is truly relevant, and you have a specific motive, then that is most definitely a lie. Any attempt at deception is the same as a lie, regardless if it is done through delivering false information or the omission of critical information. The end result and overt attempt is exactly the same.
Ultimately, I believe omission is the same as lying if you withhold something relevant that the other person needs to know or should know.
McDonough is clearly LYING BY OMISSION and I believe Gary said that law enforcement personnel consider that the same as outright lying.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 28, 2015 at 1:46 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> McDonough is clearly LYING BY OMISSION.
Of course he is/was.
Brendan McDonough has ALWAYS had his OWN AGENDA here, and still does.
The very fact that he cancelled a scheduled ‘under oath’ testimony just 48 hours before it was to take place for the sole reason that he thought he better obtain a ‘criminal defense attorney’ proves that he KNEW he was “LYING BY OMISSION” to the State officials legally tasked with investigating the incident.
The word is actually “mendacity”.
From the Latin root word mendacium, or “lie.”.
But ‘mendacity’ covers the act of LYING whether you are actually telling a FALSEHOOD, or simply NOT telling something you know and you KNOW you are withholding that information on purpose.
Tennessee Williams wrote all about ‘mendacity’ in his works. To some of his characters, it was a way of life.
Mendacity is another appropriate word. Thanks.
OK, I’ll try to say this, although I’m not sure I can.
For me it’s the TONE. The past two, or three or four, weeks have been increasingly HOSTILE in tone.
I’m feeling like I’m, increasingly, in a hostile work environment. It’s not like that hasn’t happened before. It has.
And when it has happened before, that hostility has seriously disrupted meaningful conversation.
But since last spring, when our worst “hostile disrupter” finally left, we had a long spell of constructive back and forth and progress.
For me, the last four weeks (ish) have been increasingly awful. Attacks attacks attacks attacks.
I don’t believe attacking each other leads to meaningful or constructive conversation.
Each of us has our “strengths” and our “weaknesses.” And, also, each of us has what others perceive as our “strengths” and our “weaknesses,” whether those are real or just opinions/projections in the eyes of our beholders.
I really appreciate and honor and respect the presence of everybody who is still gathered around this sputtering two year old (plus) campfire. For whatever this campfire (and conversation) is worth.
For whatever this conversation is worth (or isn’t worth –which is a legitimately debatable topic) it’s the only place on the whole fricking internet where this fire is still being critically looked into and discussed, as far as I know.
The only reason those of us uniquely fallible people are still here is because each of us still gives a damn about “We Will Never Forget.” In each of our uniquely fallible ways.
Why are people here increasingly attacking each other? What good does that do? Are we incapable of speaking with each other (even in disagreement) with mutual respect?
Once upon a time, I discovered that when I was really really really angry with someone, that anger was rooted in fear. That discovery was truly enlightening for me.
I realized I needed to deal with that anger by figuring out what I was afraid of and, then, mitigate that perceived danger.
When people here attack each other here, is it possible that those attacks are rooted in some kind of fear?
And, if so, what is that fear all about? What are “we” (both individually and collectively) afraid of?
I believe that if we are going to tone down the attack mode that I am increasingly experiencing here, each of us needs to ask ourselves what we are afraid of, before attacking someone else.
Feel safe Marti. I for one like your contributions and see them of great value here. Don’t give up amid the storm–some of these guys give a bumpy ride, maybe they have had a good rasping or suffer compartmentalization from PTSD. I have a dog with that ptsd problem, but then we got her out of the dog pound and a couple of those pounders would have given even me PTSD. Most there are the best though while there are always a few bad apples. I wonder where they get their common sense–maybe out of a cracker jack box.
Thank you Sonny!!!
As Joy says, One Foot In Front Of the Other!
We had a blizzard today. It wasn’t as bad in Burque as it was in places east of us. I still had to dig out my car.
Keep the (Whatever) Faith!!
With that attitude I would hope to hike you along the trail of the 19 so you could see first hand the situation. They say in 6 weeks I will be back in working order. Did make a trip today to Phoenix, held up ok and me and old Jesus are having a glass of wine together tonight. Merlot–they say it is good for the heart and it ain’t bad. Never was a wino but a bit of this ought to help celebrate life.
We know that those that do hike the trail are grateful and come back with fresh thoughts on fire fighting safety.
With that I forgot to say if health improves enough then all that are interested are invited. I think to deny anyone would be a sin and old Jesus or some of the Irish Gods and Goddesses would hound my ass.
Nollaig Shona agus Athbhliain faoi Mhaise Duit, Sonny.
( Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, Sonny )
In case no one has told you lately…
You’re an amazing man.
Thanks WTKTT. I am humbled by your work on this site and do appreciate and read all your contributions. You indeed are a keen mind and a challenge for some that want to hide the truth.
I totally wish I could.
I’m sitting here at my kitchen table dealing with 26-year-old diabetes and its related neuropathy in my feet and legs. Not even remotely as bad as what both you and Joy are dealing with, though it does constrain me severely.
Which is why both you and Joy keep pushing me forward as I say to myself:
“No Excuses !!!!”
Marti–Joy has been doing that and now I am now doing the one foot in front of the other situation. I actually had to use an electric cart to get around the grocery store the other day. The walker the nurse gave me I threw out in the yard. So now I am walking and expect to be hiking back up the hill in a few weeks. Joy is my walker–she calls herself the Desert Walker and really a help and inspiration. If you know her history from the past she is an amazing example of a survivor and has beat the odds and not given up when doctors had told her it was hopeless and to get her affairs in order since they did not expect her to live another year. That was eight years ago and she is still doing well. We made it to the American Legion tonight and enjoyed a chicken dinner and each time a little more can be done.
You soften things for us on this site and that balances the harshness we see sometimes. This thing is frustrating at times and I have said more than once that I would quit this whole thing. Then I realize there is no quitting here until all is put right.
There has been a great learning curve for me. I am one of the slow ones so I am glad I have Joy here with a quick mind and on this like a moth on a lamp light. You couldn’t stop her if you tried. She has bouts of wanting to get away but is right back on this getting what she can to keep the thing in motion.
It is good to see new blood coming onto the site. I know plenty people are reading this site and we need their input. They can always contribute anonymously and perhaps start a new e mail under an alias.
Reply to Woodsman post on December 26, 2015 at 7:13 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> You ( RTS ) said:
>>
>> :Brian Frisby and tHe BRHS are one of the most competent HS in the
>> nation as far as I’m concerned. They were instrumental in providing
>> the needed leadership that day as well as saving citizens’ lives that day.”
>>
>> And because you said this and I agree:
Woodsman ( and RTS )… there are enough ‘mysteries’ still surrounding this tragedy already before we need to stoop to rewriting history and what we DO know.
The Blue Ridge Hotshots ( the CREW itself ) didn’t do jack shit that day.
There are only THREE individuals whose paychecks come from that ‘Blue Ridge’ organization that could even remotely construed as having made any contributions to anything on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
That would be BR Supt. Brian Frisby, BR Captain Trueheart Brown, and BR crewman Cory Ball.
The others did NOTHING all day long but sit around near their crew carriers, eventually walk out onto the Cutover trail, and then almost immediately were forced to RTO and had to come hauling ass out of the woods to get back to their own Crew Carriers in the nick of time to even save themselves that day.
There is also NO evidence ( if there is, please point it out to me ) that even Frisby, Brown or Ball ever lifted one finger to either warn or ‘save’ any ‘citizens lives’ that day. Where are you even getting the idea that happened?
The only things even Frisby and Brown might have done that day that could be even remotely regarded as ‘positive contributions’ would be…
1. Frisby ACCIDENTALLY coming across Brendan McDonough near the old-grader, and then having the good sense to know it was time for both of them to get the fuck out of there.
2. Frisby and Brown ACCIDENTALLY noticing ( after the BR crew had begun to spread out on the Cutover Trail ) that the fire was much closer to that position than anyone thought, and without any warnings from any of the 3 lookouts who were supposed to be monitoring that work area. And they just happened to ‘notice it’ for themselves with just enough time for their own crew to get the hell off that ‘Cutover Trail’ and back to their Carriers ( but even then they had to HAUL ASS ).
3. Frisby and Brown ‘bombing around’ that Youth Camp area before leaving and telling others to “get the hell out” because they, too, had received no warning from any of the 3 lookouts who were supposed to be watching out for them in the Harper Canyon area.
RTS… question for you.
I think I asked you this before but never got an answer.
Do YOU know WHY Blue Ridge was so LATE getting to Yarnell that day?
They did an RON at a Confort Inn hotel in Camp Verde the night before and their Resource order says they were ‘needed in Yarnell’ at 6:00 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Even the DISPATCH log itself confirms they were EXPECTED ( and hired ) to be in Yarnell at 6:00 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
From document “I-Dispatch Records.pdf”…
————————————————————————–
06/29/2013 2052 LG notification from Rob at FDC, Blue Ridge crew leaving in 15
minutes, RON in Camp Verde, arrive at Yarnell Hill incident tomorrow 6/30 at 0600.
————————————————————————–
Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log says they never even left the hotel in Camp
Verde until 6:30 AM, a full half-hour AFTER they were supposed to
have already arrived for work in Yarnell..
————————————————————————–
0630 – Blue Ridge IHC departs Comfort Inn Camp Verde AZ.
0800 – Blue Ridge IHC arrives at Yarnell Hill ICP and checks in.
————————————————————————–
Cory Ball’s Unit log confirms the 6:30 AM departure from the Comfort
Inn in Camp Verde… but Ball has them arriving at the ICP a full half-hour
LATER than BR Captain Brown says they did…
————————————————————————–
0630 Left Camp Verde enroute to Yarnell Hills Fire
0830 Arrival at Peoples Valley School. Received radio clone, No briefing.
————————————————————————–
So by arriving 2 to 2 and 1/2 hours LATER than they were supposed to, Blue Ridge missed the same critical early briefing at the Yarnell Fire Station that GMIHCS Eric Marsh attended. They missed getting the same information Marsh did that morning and they missed learning that Granite Mountain had been ‘assigned’ a place called the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ as their ‘pre-determined safety zone’.
That would prevent Frisby and Brown from understanding what Marsh was saying later in the day, and they would remain clueless about their intentions and their destination even when they heard they were ‘moving’.
So WHY were they 2 to 2 1/2 hours LATE that morning?
There’s never been an adequate explanation for that.
And as for…
“one of the most competent HS in the nation ”
Remember that the photographic evidence shows that at NOT TIME that day was Brian Frisby ever wearing a helmet whole riding in the Polaris Ranger UTV ( only his black ball cap ) and driver Brown was NEVER wearing gloves.
Both are direct violations of all codified safety procedures for using UTVs on a fireline.
So if their supposed to be “one of the best HS crews in the nation”… I’d hate to see the known WORST ones and how THEY respect safety procedures.
Yes… SOME lives probably got saved that day because of Frisby and Brown… but let’s not try to rewrite history here.
Other than those moments involving the UTV Ranger… The Blue Ridge Hotshots did absolutely jack shit at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
WTKTT,
I have posted and reposted this several times hoping you would reply, but you have not. So, I suggest a fair trade.
“Robert the Second says December 20, 2015 at 10:47 am
WTKTT,
I did a quick search for the “God” word and who posted it in both Chapters XVII and XVIII and found the following:
“God” was posted 47 times in Chapter XVII and 36 times in Chapter XVIII, by the following posters in both chapters, in descending order:
(XVII) Sonny + Gary + Joy + WTKTT + RTS + Bob
(XVIII) Gary + Sonny + WTKTT + Joy + Woodsman + RTS + Bob
So, it is very clear to me that I was the only one chastised and/or warned by you. Sonny, Joy, and Gary mention “God’s” name many more times than any of us, yet they received no such chastisement. Nor did anyone else.
Therefore, it appears that I am already fitting the “try to keep THAT kinda stuff to a minimum” standard that you have set for me alone and nobody else. And your reason for the disparate treatment is what?
In Psalms 14:1 and 53:1, the Bible states ” The fool has said in his heart “There is no God.”‘ NOT preaching here, just verifying like we do with all other postings.”
We’ll trade. You give me the answer(s) I seek here and then I’ll answer your questions.
Well the Muslims say the same about Allah (you’re a fool if you don’t believe) and will whack your head off if you happen to show up in Allah’s land–say at a mosque praying to Jesus or God or even the Irish Goddess Dana. So you’d be a Christian fool doing that I would say. There are lots of fools around–some of them that don’t adhere to safety rules and get themselves killed that way. That might be a fool from ignorance or maybe a fool for disdain of safety rules. Well we can’t tell sometimes if it is a bird or if it is Superman.
Sonny,
Convert to Islam or die they say. But wait!
They claim to be the Religion of Peace!
We would be happy to send a number of them to their 79 virgins as they want to send us to meet Jesus or whatever God we might see or not see. All religion involves war and conversion. The God of the old testament did plenty of genocides for not listening to his commands. Jesus himself in Luke said sell your cloak and buy a sword and Revelation speaks of war when Jesus returns. Catholics were good at burning people at the stake while many of their saints were child molesters ==see the modern day record but that is not just Catholics since these problems are found in all religions and in mankind in general and even the latter day saintly Mormons are found to have some nasty traits.
If you study the Sumerian clay tablets and Gods of the India world you see them all wiping out a bunch of humans like so many cattle. Now there were some Gods (Aliens if you prefer) who are said to have liked their creations of man and even intermarried with their subjects. Some say they brought in a line of blue bloods such as the Queen and the Bush family rulers who can even shape shift. I do say the Queen and the Bush family are pretty beady eyed but I don’t know about the shape shifting–I doubt they would let me get close enough to see being I am of Irish descent. So you can see this God thing has been around for a long time and thousands of years even before the Jewish texts of the Bible.
To my way of thinking there is a lot of hoo doo in religion, and a man will best find himself his own god of sorts–do well and keep honest–I see plenty of atheists often of more character and honesty than many so called Christian and Muslim practitioners. I think the old Jesus I know would like them better than the fakers and that goes for old Jesus I met on a bar stool down in Mexico.
Your masters want to keep you under control and take your power away. Few leaders are worth a shit and the higher up the ladder they go the more you see their ass. Religion is just one of the tools but along with it are cronyism, deceit and subterfuge. It is a mess to understand it all, especially if you have any shreds of decency left in you by the time you get indoctrinated with their bullshit.
Sonny-
odd to hear all this—you have one of those bathides in religion just because you do not hang your certificate on some wall—you are one of them that you are talking about
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I am confused. You say PHD really means Piled Higher and Deeper yet in my way of thinking why feel such way as you express versus tying in the best way we can in this modern society TOGETHERNESS versus sabotage another-
Live and let live, right?
Well how can we LIVE AND LET LIVE if we pop on Investigative Media and see less talk on the fire and more on how others view a topic that has such a diversity-
I think Marti is correct in the manner that she does have every right to feel depressed because there are just too many lookie loos like Gary said hiding in the shadows but not on here sharing—that is depressing and Woodsman has been a nice addition to this site- and when Woodsman boldly says his needs to help be a better man on the line—RTS, than you and I and Sonny and Bob and Gary and few others who do have private knowledge of more it is not our duty to share but yes Woodsman it is someone’s duty and that is direct from the source not hearsay third party.
Losing my father has been a journey because I know he is with me more now than when he was alive-
I see things out of the sorts that I know he is orchestrating-
He is doing his damndest to get my back on the trails as the pistol packing mama but I want the world to know the unique love I have for Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) is unlike anything else one can have…I think it is safe to assume I will remain in his life until the end…and with four heart attacks in 3.5 weeks and docs throwing mortality shit out you it starts to feel closer than later but being around him 24/7 I know he is going to make it until 125-
not 125 days or minutes or seconds either-
he has this spark unlike any other—called SURVIVORSHIP- you either have it or you don’t-
he has it.
I have reconnected to all his old paths except Pine, Ca mining days and Kentucky and if I go there you better have loads of cash because I am getting me the finest hat to go to the derby—and as well Minnesota and WA/MT— I did the surrounding areas of this here state I love and many despise….I love a place I can wear my weapon and that is my right to bear arms—you take that right away from me — that’s a bad thing.
We live in a bullshit world— it’s a bullshit.
What happen to the 19 and the disrespect of properly assessing the YHF—
it is what it is—
BE HAPPY!
No matter what it is…don’t lock on the BS…
do what you like and like what you do!
all I have to say— just funny to hear Sonny talk about preachers when he is legally one.
Joy we are talking about human factors all important in the deaths of 19 young souls.
La vida es no mas que un puno de tierra. Jesus told me that on a bar stool–Life is no more than a hand full of dirt. We are just passing through so may our passing be of good and proper purpose.
The truth matters and matters in so many ways concerning the Yarnell Hill wildfire. We have had so many that have tried to discourage that quest, yet we see those here steadfast and determined, even bold to speak their minds. These are the watchers, those who do not fear but with good intentions light the path of darkness we have seen after the Yarnell tragedy.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
December 27, 2015 at 9:37 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> In Psalms 14:1 and 53:1, the Bible states ” The fool has said in his
>> heart “There is no God.”‘ NOT preaching here, just verifying
>> like we do with all other postings.”
>>
>> We’ll trade. You give me the answer(s) I seek here and
>> then I’ll answer your questions.
Okay… as much as I think your little “let’s make a deal” offer is twisted and I’m starting to think you have some screws loose… I’ll “take the bait” and play your little game.
1. Your recent PREACHING caught me at a bad moment. I had just finished reading ( word for word ) 19 autopsy reports and have joined a small club now that knows, first hand, what some people think ( you included? ) “God’s other plan for those men” looked like… in gory detail.
2. Your little ‘search’ for the word ‘God’ across many, many chapters of this forum is not a legitimate stack of ‘evidence’ that I am ‘picking on you’. If you do your search again… you’ll already find TWO more references to ‘God’ showing up via a GREP search. The ones in THIS post. ( Actually THREE since I even typed it again after the word TWO in the last sentence ).
3. All that being said… forget what I said. That one bit of PREACHING of yours just caught me at a bad moment and while I still think it’s inappropriate for this PUBLIC forum, and what it’s supposed to be about, I am NOT the moderator of this forum.
Repeat: I am NOT the moderator of this forum.
Post whatever you want. Start dumping entire Bible passages instead of just the fortune-cookie blurbs and if the actual moderator of this forum let’s it through… then it’s none of my concern.
Happy now?
Okay then… deal’s a deal.
Tell me what you know about WHY Blue Ridge was 2 to 2 and 1/2 hours late for their assignment that morning, and didn’t even leave the Comfort Inn until a half-hour after both their Resource order and the Dispatch log says they were supposed to already be ‘at work’ in Yarnell?
WTKTT,
Thanks for your reply. I have a lot of respect for all your insightsd and contributions here, always have and always will. And I also tend to think a lot of what you do here as well is twisted and I’m starting to think you have some screws loose also. And sometimes I think you act a bit EN-esque with your attitude toward just me regarding God. And I am NOT PREACHING. If you want to read some preaching, just go to some of Sonny’s or Joy’s posts. They’re preaching a whole lot lately, but you give them no flak. Oh well, I’m taking it all in stride. Maybe you should as well.
“God’s other plan for those men” is what it is, in all it’s gory detail. Yes, indeed. I agree with you that the GMHS Autopsy Reports should be required reading for all WFF’s. And I already am posting entire Bible passages here, so I’m not clear what you want.
To answer your immediate question, I do NOT know WHY Blue Ridge was 2 to 2 and 1/2 hours late for their assignment that morning, and didn’t even leave the Comfort Inn until a half-hour after both their Resource order and the Dispatch log says they were supposed to already be ‘at work’ in Yarnell.”
Those Resource Orders are only ESTIMATES of when the Requesting Unit needs you. The Resource (BRHS) should notify the Requesting Unit (ASF) if they’re going to be late and it looks like that was NOT the case here. Someday, maybe I’ll find out and you’ll be one of the first to know.
I’ll try to answer several of your other BRHS questions. First, about the BRHS and what they were doing on June 30, 2013. It’s very typical for a WFF Supervisor to have his Crew or whatever Resource just “keg up” or stand-by until he gets all his scouting accomplished. And that could take hours depending on all the fuels, weather, topography, and fire behavior factors. And they know to just STAY PUT UNTIL they are told to move BY THEIR SUPERVISOR ONLY.
What were they doing all day? From the Wildland Fire Associates report: “The Blue Ridge Interagency Hotshot Crew (BRIHC) spent part of their time waiting for an assignment and part of their time working on improving the dozer line.”
But yet, you post: “The [BRHS] others did NOTHING all day long but sit around near their crew carriers, eventually walk out onto the Cutover trail, and then almost immediately were forced to RTO and had to come hauling ass out of the woods to get back to their own Crew Carriers in the nick of time to even save themselves that day.” Where did you come up with this? I assure you, I think it was NOT that dramatic.
So, the BRHS did some work that day prepping their at least 2-mile dozer line, meaning cutting overhanging trees and branches out of the line, bucking and removing any logs and such, to make it a cleaner, more secure fireline. Evidently, this was NOT to your satisfaction, the amount of work “the others” accomplished.
You posted: “Frisby ACCIDENTALLY coming across Brendan McDonough near the old-grader, and then having the good sense to know it was time for both of them to get the fuck out of there.”
On that issue, the GMHS McDonough lookout was responsible for his own safety and welfare and also under the responsibility of the GMHS overhead (Steed) and NOT the BRHS! They were doing the GMHS a favor. Remember, we discussed the cavalier attitude the GMHS overhead had for the safety and welfare of their Lookout?
And regarding your concerns about “There is also NO evidence ( if there is, please point it out to me ) that even Frisby, Brown or Ball ever lifted one finger to either warn or ‘save’ any ‘citizens lives’ that day. Where are you even getting the idea that happened?”
I got the FACT that happened that day from OTHER ANONYMOUS SOURCES OTHER THAN THE BRHS. Remember, there were scores of other WFF’s on the YH Fire in Division Z. That should be sufficient for you.
And there’s more! You have issue with Woodsman and I, but MOSTLY me, claiming that the BRHS are “one of the most competent HS in the nation.”
You posted: “… the photographic evidence shows that at NO[] TIME that day was Brian Frisby ever wearing a helmet [while] riding in the Polaris Ranger UTV ( only his black ball cap ) and driver Brown was NEVER wearing gloves. … Both are direct violations of all codified safety procedures for using UTVs on a fireline.”
Yes, you are correct on the “codified safety procedures,” however, these are what I refer to as MOUSE NUTS. They are so small as to NOT rise to the level of concern you attempt to give them. In other words, they are pretty insignificant given the entire scope of things at the time.
And this post is one of my favorites: “So if their supposed to be “one of the best HS crews in the nation”… I’d hate to see the known WORST ones and how THEY respect safety procedures.”
Really? And you’re telling me that you don’t know who that is/was? Really? How about the FORMER GMHS being the “known WORST one[ ] and how THEY respect safety procedures.” Surely, you already knew the answer to that one, right? And why? Just refer back to all the other posts in all the other Chapters referring to their piss poor safety attitude.
I still believe, that the BRHS, under the leadership of Brian Frisby, is one of the most competent AND safe AND skookum Hot Shot Crews in the US.
Thanks for the opportunity to respond.
I’m posting a link to another very comprehensive 2014 research paper by Dan Guenthner (PhD, ABD, MS, Fire Service Organization, Management, Leadership, and Ethics (FSOMLE)) titled “Wildland Firefighter Safety and the USFS” that I know you’ll enjoy as will others. It’s 29 pages and features several of the most recent fatality fires we have discussed here AND the YH Fire. He pulls no punches and rightly lays into the Forest Service and their safety practices.
https://www.academia.edu/7938782/Wildland_Firefighter_Safety_and_the_USFS
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
December 27, 2015 at 2:37 pm
>> RTS originally said…
>>
>> We’ll trade. You give me the answer(s) I seek here and
>> then I’ll answer your questions.
>>
>> RTS then eventually said…
>>
>> To answer your immediate question, I do NOT know
>> WHY Blue Ridge was 2 to 2 and 1/2 hours late for their
>> assignment that morning.
Somehow I knew your little “let’s make a deal” game was going to result in that sort of “What I know is… NOTHING” response, but it was worth playing along ( because we never seem to know WHAT you do or don’t know ) just in case you DID actually know something THIS time.
Regardless. That still qualifies as an ‘answer’, so thanks.
Ya rolls ya dice… ya takes ya chances.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The Resource (BRHS) should notify the Requesting
>> Unit (ASF) if they’re going to be late and it looks like
>> that was NOT the case here.
Just to clarify ( because you didn’t )… are you now saying it “looks like that was NOT the case” in reference to the FIRST part of you sentence, or the SECOND part?
In other words… are you trying to say it “looks like it was NOT the case” that they were, in fact, LATE for their work assignment… or are you saying it “looks like that was NOT the case” to the fact that they KNEW they were going to be late but ( apparently ) made no attempt to notify anyone?
The way you actually worded that, it could go either way.
Remember… there was absolutely NO ‘ambiguity’ in the DISPATCH log just after ‘Rob at FDC’ had spoken directly to Blue Ridge at 8:52 PM on Saturday night…
From document “I-Dispatch Records.pdf”…
————————————————————————–
06/29/2013 2052 LG notification from Rob at FDC, Blue Ridge crew leaving in 15 minutes, RON in Camp Verde, arrive at Yarnell Hill incident tomorrow 6/30 at 0600.
————————————————————————–
“ARRIVE at Yarnell Hill incident at 6:00 AM”.
There is no ‘maybe’ in there. That’s when they SAID they would be there and they ended up 2 to 2 and 1/2 hours LATE.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> What were they doing all day? From the Wildland Fire
>> Associates report: “The Blue Ridge Interagency Hotshot
>> Crew (BRIHC) spent part of their time waiting for an
>> assignment and part of their time working on improving
>> the dozer line.”
Based on Blue Ridge’s own UNIT logs… that statement in the WFA report would have been more accurate if it was worded this way…
“The Blue Ridge Interagency Hotshot Crew (BRIHC) spent MOST of their time that Sunday waiting for an assignment and a SMALL amount time just BEGINNING to improve a dozer line before they were ordered to abandon even that late-day assignment, RTO and return to their buggies.”
”
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> But yet, you post: “The [BRHS] others did NOTHING all
>> day long but sit around near their crew carriers,
>> eventually walk out onto the Cutover trail, and then
>> almost immediately were forced to RTO and had
>> to come hauling ass out of the woods to get back
>> to their own Crew Carriers in the nick of time to even
>> save themselves that day.”
>>
>> Where did you come up with this?
ONE place would be… the Blue Ridge Unit Logs… signed by each crewman.
Go and read them ( It appears you have not done so yet ).
They all say the same thing.
By the time the crew even got ‘spread out’ on the Cutover Trail dozer line, and by the time the BR crew that had bumped the vehicles over to the Youth Camp were just starting their hike out to meet the others on the dozer line and BEGIN the assignment… they were told to RTO and get BACK to the buggies.
The ones who were hiking in from the Youth Camp to even BEGIN their part of the assignment only got 40 yards from the vehicles before the RTO order came and the assignment was abandoned.
Pay particular attention in the BR Unit log to phrases like “It isn’t more than a FEW MINUTES and crew is heading BACK towards the buggies” and “we only hiked for two minutes” and “we only got about 40 yards”… “bump out WITH URGENCY” and “FIRE CONSUMING EVERYTHING”, etc. etc.
Just a few examples…
From what appears to be BR Squad Boss Travis Fuller’s typed up ( and signed ) Unit Log…
——————————–
The crew gets closer to getting an ACTUAL assignment and in the early afternoon, after structure protection is discussed, instead will prep a dozer line leading from just below the staged buggies and going to the drainage and the Boy Scout ( Youth ) camp.
It isn’t more than a FEW MINUTES and the entire crew is heading ( BACK ) towards the buggies and disengaging from this prepping assignment. All the guys load up and head back to Hwy 89 and the Ranch House Restaurant.
————————————-
Another (unnamed) BR Unit Log…
————————————-
We were instructed to prep the dozer line back towards the rest of the crew. We hiked for TWO MINUTES and were told that we were disengaging from the line due to Extreme Fire Behavior. Everyone drove the same vehicles as earlier back out to Hwy 89. The subdivision was not completely evacuated at this time. Fire personnel were close to the FIRST ones out. We regrouped at a restaurant south of Yarnell with all vehicles.
—————————————–
Another (unnamed) BR Unit Log…
—————————————–
We started heading in toward where the rest of our crew was constructing line and fire intensity was at the point of making the decision for everyone on Blue Ridge to discontinue the plan. We retreated back to the vehicles to get ready to move out once the remainder of Blue Ridge made it back to the vehicles. We kept the same drivers in the same vehicles and started driving out towards Highway 89.
——————————————
Another (unnamed) BR Unit Log…
——————————————
Blue Ridge was going to hike down the dozer line and START improving (it). Large black smoke was visible for about 1/4 mile. The fire gets hit with a wind shift. The vehicle bumpers begin to tie in with the rest of the crew. We get the order to R.T.O. back to the buggies and drive to the highway. Fire is CONSUMING EVERYTHING.
————————————-
Another (unnamed) BR Unit Log…
————————————-
BRIHC will prep dozer line to N/NE back to drainage leading to Boy Scout Camp. Crew begins prepping dozer line for burnout operations. Crew instructed to disengage and move back to Buggies.
————————————-
Another (unnamed) BR Unit Log…
————————————-
Immediately after tieing in with them we receive instructions to head in ( on the dozer line ) and tie in with the rest of our crew. We begin hiking in but only get about 40 yards from vehicles when we received the order to RTO ( Reverse tool order ) and head back to the trucks. Everyone jumps in a vehicle and prepares to bump out. I am in Granite Mountain’s Chase truck, ready for the call to bump out. At this point fire is getting VERY close and is moving FAST, the sky all around us is DARK and we can hear the fire’s fury. 1655 The rest of the crew arrives at the vehicles and loads up QUICKLY. As soon as they are are all loaded up I get the call to bump out WITH URGENCY. I began leading the convoy out.
————————————-
Just look at this last ‘example’ alone…
So this Blue Ridge Hotshot ( the one who was going to be driving the GM Chase truck out and would then also have access to the GM Intra-Crew frequency for as long as HE was in this vehicle ) recalls the fire being VERY CLOSE and MOVING QUICKLY and he could already “Hear the fire’s fury” BEFORE the rest of the Blue Ridge Crew even ‘appeared’ ( running ) from out of the Cutover Trail to even START getting into the buggies.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I assure you, I think it was NOT that dramatic.
Oh… so it’s a USUAL thing to see an entire Hotshot Crew come Hauling ass ( RUNNING ) out of the woods as fast as they can? ( Bob Brandon’s independent, non-media controlled testimony ) and to have their own Unit Logs saying things like “bump out WITH URGENCY” and “FIRE WAS CONSUMING EVERYTHING”, etc., etc.?
That happens ALL the time, you think?
Also… see that last example BR Unit Log above with that BR crewman describing how bad things were getting BEFORE he even saw his crewmates come RUNNING out of the woods.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> So, the BRHS did some work that day prepping their at
>> least 2-mile dozer line,
Way off. Like… by about a MILE and a HALF.
The only ‘assignment’ Blue Ridge ever got… and too late in the afternoon for it to make ANY difference, was to TRY and do some cleanup on that ‘Cutover Trail’ dozer line.
Total length of Cutover Trail, from the NORTHEAST point where it met the dirt part of Shrine Road, to the SOUTHWEST point where it met the other two-track road that runs north/south through the Sesame Clearing area…
0.68 mile(s) / 1,202 yards / 3,605 feet.
By the time they even got all ‘spread out’ on that trail and even started to do anything useful there… it was time to RTO and get back to their Buggies.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> meaning cutting overhanging trees and branches out
>> of the line, bucking and removing any logs and such,
>> to make it a cleaner, more secure fireline.
You really haven’t read the actual BR Unit Logs, have you?
You are IMAGINING things if you think they actually had time to do anything like what you describe.
They did not.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Evidently, this was NOT to your satisfaction, the
>> amount of work “the others” accomplished.
My satisfaction has nothing to do with it.
They ( the Blue Ridge CREW ) simply did NOT accomplish anything useful that day. That’s a fact.
So let’s not try to rewrite history.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And regarding your concerns about “There is also
>> NO evidence ( if there is, please point it out to me )
>> that even Frisby, Brown or Ball ever lifted one finger
>> to either warn or ‘save’ any ‘citizens lives’ that day. Where
>> are you even getting the idea that happened?”
>>
>> I got the FACT that happened that day from OTHER
>> ANONYMOUS SOURCES OTHER THAN THE BRHS.
>> Remember, there were scores of other WFF’s on
>> the YH Fire in Division Z. That should be sufficient for you.
And… ??? So…. ??? What FACT(s) are you referring to?
I said “If there is evidence they lifted any fingers to help citizens”… show it to me.
YOU doing another one of your “I know something but I won’t tell you” dances doesn’t answer the question.
WHAT is it they are supposed to have done?
Or is that supposed to be some kind of ‘secret’, too?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Yes, you are correct on the “codified safety procedures,”
>> however, these are what I refer to as MOUSE NUTS.
>> They are so small as to NOT rise to the level of concern
>> you attempt to give them. In other words, they are pretty
>> insignificant given the entire scope of things at the time.
>>
>> I still believe, that the BRHS, under the leadership of
>> Brian Frisby, is one of the most competent AND safe
>> AND skookum Hot Shot Crews in the US.
Pretty insignificant? The chances of injury in a vehicle accident?
So… some rules are rules but others are just sorta kinda rules and we’ll just observe the ones we don’t think are “Hillbilly”?
( Sound familiar? )
That’s still the mark of “a really competent AND safe AND skookum” group of public servants?
Is that really what you just said?
I agree with wtktt
As a Fire Fighter with all my time and background I disagree with WTKTT.
1. Assigned to improve the line for Burnout. That is a legitimate work assignment 2 Miles of tractor line that is also a lot to cover. I agree it is a easer job than building line but still a job that needed done before Burn out which I believe they were assigned to as well. That just did not happen.
2. The crew followed their assigned retreat to the trucks and were out of the way in quite a short time.
I would say it was not as close as you believe and if the trucks did not get singed and the crew did not get first degree burns and they had time to convoy out then it was not a live or die run to the trucks and drive out.
To much melodrama here for what actually happened.
They had a PLAN they followed the PLAN and they got out safely to the Highway.
GOOD JOB BLUE RIDGE
Well put and to the point Bob.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
December 28, 2015 at 12:31 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> 1. Assigned to improve the line for Burnout.
>> That is a legitimate work assignment
Of course it is. Who said it wasn’t?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> 2 Miles of tractor line that is also a lot to cover.
You are totally wrong.
Did you read the previous post?
The ‘dozer line’ they were finally asked to work on after sitting on their asses all day was only 0.68 miles long.
Just 1,202 yards / 3,605 feet.
But even with that short line… it was TOO LATE in the day. By the time they even got ‘spread out’ on the dozer line it was pretty much time to RTO, abandon the assignment, and evacuate.
So they did not ACCOMPLISH anything at all.
THAT is/was the whole POINT of this re-visit of what Blue Ridge did or didn’t do that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I agree it is a easer job than building line
>> but still a job that needed done before
>> Burn out which I believe they were
>> assigned to as well. That just did not happen.
Thank you. Now you are CORRECT.
It “didn’t happen”.
Blue Ridge didn’t really DO anything at all but BEGIN to undertake the assignment before they RTO’ed and evacuated.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> 2. The crew followed their assigned retreat
>> to the trucks and were out of the way in
>> quite a short time.
Yes… but only because they came Hauling-ass-RUNNING “out of the woods”, as described by eyewitness Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon.
I am GLAD they had the good sense to RUN.
If they had just been ‘strolling along’ on that RTO exit like they had all the TIME in the world ( like GM was on that first leg of their journey south )… there really *might* have been a few more bodies to haul out Yarnell that weekend.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I would say it was not as close as you
>> believe and if the trucks did not get
>> singed and the crew did not get first
>> degree burns and they had time to
>> convoy out then it was not a live or die
>> run to the trucks and drive out.
Nothing you just said actually ended up happening to either the men or the trucks involved in that other operation just west of the Youth Camp… ( the Harper Canyon crew ) but ADOSH still issued a ‘near-entrapment’ citation for THAT situation.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> To much melodrama here for what
>> actually happened.
There are still a lot of details lacking for what DID actually happen out there by that Youth Camp.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They had a PLAN they followed the PLAN
>> and they got out safely to the Highway.
So did the men working in Harper Canyon.
Their ‘plan’ ( blow the sirens on the trucks at the Youth Camp to indicate “get out now” ) was executed, and they ‘evacuated’ according to their PLAN and no one actually died. That’s GOOD.
But ADOSH issued a ‘near-entrapment’ citation for ONE group of FFs that came “running out of the woods” in that area… but not the other.
>> Bob Powers…
>>
>> GOOD JOB BLUE RIDGE
Yes. I am as GLAD as I can be they didn’t end up more bodies that would have had to have been hauled out of Yarnell that weekend…
…but still… let’s not try to rewrite history.
The Blue Ridge Hotshots ( the CREW ) did not ACCOMPLISH anything at all that day except eventually ‘save themselves’ and stay alive.
WTKTT,
Thank you for your detailed responses on the BRHS heavily redacted unit logs BTW about their time on the dozer line and its length. I have indeed read them, just could not find them when I needed them. Overall though, you really do NOT get it, do you? And it seems you’re getting your panties all in a bind.
Regarding the BRHS being late to the YH Fire and missing the morning briefing, again I say SO WHAT! In the long run it made NO difference that BRHS missed it, based on the final, fatal outcome of the GMHS fatal decision to leave their perfectly good SZ. I say SO WHAT that the BRHS did NOT know exactly where to look for the GMHS at the BSR. The GMHS and their leadership are the only ones to blame for their own deaths, NOT the BRHS, and NOT anyone else. It’s my professional opinion, Marsh was NOT going to listen to anyone that day about leaving or not leaving the black or travel routes or anything else. He had his mind made up and no one was going to change it. It’s what we had been experiencing for years and our individual and collective experienced WFF peer pressure obviously failed to change anything. And so he did what he wanted to do and the BRHS attending the morning briefing would NOT have made any difference.
You posted: “Somehow I knew your little “let’s make a deal” game was going to result in that sort of “What I know is… NOTHING” response, but it was worth playing along ( because we never seem to know WHAT you do or don’t know ) just in case you DID actually know something THIS time.”
It’s NOT a game. You asked and I told you what I knew.
You posted from the other day: “we never seem to know WHAT you do or don’t know ) just in case you DID actually know something THIS time.” WTF is that supposed to mean? NEVER? REALLY? “DID ACTUALLY KNOW SOMETHING THIS TIME.” REALLY?
It’s pretty clear that I was referring to the BRHS NOT notifying ASF that they would be late. That was the issue in question I thought.
You posted: that in the BRHS unit logs they had to “bump out WITH URGENCY” and “FIRE CONSUMING EVERYTHING”, etc. etc. Okay, so what’s your point? Obviously the BRHS are doing their job here and Fire Order No. 3 kicks in to Base all actions on CURRENT and EXPECTED fire behavior and they’re moving out. The fire consuming everything comment was LIKELY them looking at it from a distance and NOT right up on them. Such drama!
You posted: “Your recent PREACHING caught me at a bad moment. I had just finished reading ( word for word ) 19 autopsy reports and have joined a small club now that knows, first hand, what some people think ( you included? ) “God’s other plan for those men” looked like… in gory detail.”
Welcome to the club. I’ve known about the horrors of burning to death in my first season as a WFF talking to those with experience. The 1976 Battlement Creek fatalities sure verified it, then there was the 1990 Dude Fire fatalities and autopsy reports. Yet, you focus on the “God’s other plan for those men” instead of focusing on the GMHS stupidity in NOT following The WFF Rules. I assure you, the GMHS knew, or should have known the consequences. They were just so used to “getting away with it” on fires all the time, so why would this one be any different?
You posted: “And… ??? So…. ??? What FACT(s) are you referring to?” in response to your allegation that certain BRHS did nothing that day to help out citizens.
“I said “If there is evidence they lifted any fingers to help citizens”… show it to me.
“YOU doing another one of your “I know something but I won’t tell you” dances doesn’t answer the question.
“WHAT is it they are supposed to have done?
“Or is that supposed to be some kind of ‘secret’, too?”
Well, I wasn’t there, so I can’t show you any “evidence they lifted any fingers to help citizens.” And no one offered any evidence in the form of photos of the BRHS lifting any fingers, but I’ll keep digging for you. If someone sees and hears something firsthand, like those OTHER WFF’s that were there and they tell you what they saw and heard, that suffices for proof to me as a FACT. And those OTHER WFF’s then passed that FACT on to me. But that’s NOT good enough for you, is it?
You posted in regard to the UTV protective equipment: “Pretty insignificant? The chances of injury in a vehicle accident?
“So… some rules are rules but others are just sorta kinda rules and we’ll just observe the ones we don’t think are “Hillbilly”?
“( Sound familiar? )
“That’s still the mark of “a really competent AND safe AND skookum” group of public servants?
“Is that really what you just said?”
Obviously, that’s EXACTLY what I said and you know that. Like I said, you just don’t get it, do you? Or you don’t want to get it.
First off, UTV’s are one of the safest of the all-terrain-vehicles due to the wider wheel base and roll bar. So, the chances of an “injury in a vehicle accident” are …. ready for this … “pretty insignificant.” Get over it!
When there is the choice of say …. burning to death …. or the very unlikely rolling of a UTV, most of us would tend to not focus so much on the UTV policies that were brought about by the “Good Idea People” out of the Washington Office. Instead, we would focus on the more important WFF Rules, that have been brought about from the firelines, based on WFF dying.
You’re using the Fallacy of False Analogy here comparing what Hillbilly McDonough said about the Fire Orders to what the BRHS did (or did not do) regarding ATV/UTV protective equipment. The ‘Rules are Rules’ thing doesn’t hold water here. It’s MOUSE NUTS. Once again, your lack of actual on-the-ground WF experience shows and that’s okay.
You posted: “That’s still the mark of “a really competent AND safe AND skookum” group of public servants?”
In my PROFESSIONAL OPINION, yes indeed, “That’s still the mark of “a really competent AND safe AND skookum” group of public servants.”
You also posted: “My satisfaction has nothing to do with it.
“They ( the Blue Ridge CREW ) simply did NOT accomplish anything useful that day. That’s a fact.
“So let’s not try to rewrite history.”
YOUR satisfaction has EVERYTHING to do with it, otherwise we wouldn’t be going round-and-round on this. And the “They ( the Blue Ridge CREW ) simply did NOT accomplish anything useful that day. That’s a fact” statement is merely your OPINION!
What the BRHS did that day, albeit fairly minor, was useful at the time based on the planned use of that dozer line. And opinions are NOT facts, especially those coming from someone with NO WFF experience. And I feel that you are the one trying to rewrite history here based on your total lack of WFF experience.
As a side note regarding ATV PPE, the 2013 NM SNF WFF Captain Token Adams, while looking for the Schoolhouse Fire, died from an ATV rollover while actually wearing FULL ATV PPE, including the required wrap-around helmet. And though not in the official report, it was the helmet that very likely contributed to him breaking his neck, killing him, according to those familiar with the investigation.
Amazing
Yea.
Still won’t even say what this FACT is he says he was told by ‘other FFs’.
To WTKTT~
I would really like to be able to get on to Sitta’s site. Sitta has not responded to my email. Neither the name “Marti” nor my email address will get me on to the site. I don’t know what’s going on.
I would really like to look at the stuff you wrote about downstream. I wrote you an email asking you if I could “borrow” your info to at least look at stuff this weekend, because next week is going to be a beast for me.
Help?
I saw your request. I’m not ignoring it.
I am not able to do anything about it at the moment.
Push comes to shove… I will duplicated that ‘ISSUE document’ ( and all the photographs in it ) at some other PUBLIC place so you can access it.
Thx, WTKTT.
Couldn’t I just use your email address to log into the site, thus saving you the hassle?
No. That’s not how this ‘Basecamp’ software works.
When I got the ‘invite’ from Sitta… I just clicked on a link that showed up in a GMAIL account. That ended up using the default ‘Login from GMAIL option’.
In order for you to ‘pretend to be me’, I’d have to give you the password for that GMAIL account, and I’m not willing to do that.
Let me see if I can go there and change my OWN ‘account preferences’ ( at this Basecamp thing ) and use some OTHER way of “Logging in” that doesn’t involve doing it FROM a GMAIL account.
Woodsman says
DECEMBER 26, 2015 AT 1:06 PM
Thank you, RTS, for continuing the conversation…you are helping a younger generation wff out.
In your opinion, does a strategy exist that would mitigate these fears and allow those with information to make it known in order to prevent these events from occurring in the future?
Because, I gotta tell ya, if not, isn’t all we are doing here is engaging in an elaborate exercise in mental masturbation?…and with little or no chance of achieving positive change?
These are serious questions. I’m asking not from a defeatist point of view but a realists’ one.
Woodsman
And I say “I like that one, “mental masturbation” and I must be out of lube because I am starting to really piss everybody off AGAIN, so I am going on another hiatus.”
And furthermore, I think Woodsman brings up some very good points, we are chasing our tails here. What does come next? I have done everything I can think of to get someone to come forward and nothing has worked. Like I said before, the CIA should move their farm to Prescott, it must be something in the air or water there. Usually a secret can’t be kept if more than one person knows about it.
Patience is a virtue. Dr. Ted Putnam worked for years, spent his good money and time, and this is to expose a cover up on the Montana Mann Gulch affair that happened over 60 years ago. Information is trickling out here and whiskey is not good until it is aged a bit. Time works in truths favor–some will not come clean until they are on their deaths bed–and maybe a few not even then. But we will get enough revealed to help those down the line–maybe even save some of the pork barrel spending and tax payer dollars as well.
WTKTT has a point–what were the BR boys doing that caused them to show up late to a terrible fire about to burn Yarnell and kill 19 quickly? I have a kid that shows up when he shows up and two others I can count on to be there when they say. Who do you think gets my inheritance of lands and property? I expect people to be there at the appointed time and why I am there or have a damn good reason not to be when I say I will be there.
The two responsible ones will keep the inheritance and take care for the one who would squander it–in his older age he will need that help so it works out for the best that way.
And as far as fire fighting goes, it does the citizenry well to know what is truly going on in this fire fighting big business world. The tax payer needs to know where and how their tax dollars are being spent into the millions and how and why so many lives, homes and resources are destroyed. That is a right to know and any cover up of those facts and wrong doings is criminal and we hope punishable and enforceable by law. We nail shoplifters, but do we nail fire fighters stealing hours of wage money? Worse are the blokes allowing simple fires to balloon into multi million dollar projects. That is worse than stealing since it involves killing young men and destruction of homes-another form of arson. Murder and Arson are two offenses that never expire. No statute of limitations means the perps are liable to get an arrest warrant at any time the rest of their lives. Not a good thing to lie on their pillows to think about — especially if they read the JD site and realize what they have to live with.
Sonny,
You posted: “WTKTT has a point–what were the BR boys doing that caused them to show up late to a terrible fire about to burn Yarnell and kill 19 quickly?”
See my post above to WTKTT. The BRHS were in NO way responsible for the deaths of the 19 GMHS. The GMHS did it all on their own.
I believe that the BRHS showing up ‘on time’ would NOT have made any difference in the fatal outcome.
You are absolutely right the BRHS show up time would have made no difference once that fire was out of hand. In fact the GMHS that were already there would have made no difference once it turned into a wild fire. Blue Ridge were both at the Shrine and Sesame street as well. Maybe they can tell us about the back burn we saw on u-tube and who did that one.
No they would have no blame and I think BR Brian should be commended for saving Donut even if it were by accident. It will be interesting when their gag order is lifted if it ever will be. Maybe you can talk to one and see what gives, off the record that is.
I do believe some of them will let the cat out of the bag somewhere along the line. Maybe even anonymously on this site.
It would be interesting to know why they were late that day since they seem to be one of the more punctual groups and with better understanding of the rules to keep alive than we saw with GMHS.
Brhs…the only way I c it…they are never too late to join this campfire
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
December 27, 2015 at 2:47 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I believe that the BRHS showing up ‘on time’ would NOT have
>> made any difference in the fatal outcome.
We ( you and I, anyway ) will ALWAYS just need to ‘agree to disagree’ on this point.
I believe there’s a chance it MIGHT have made all the difference in the world.
There are MANY things about what happened that entire weekend where it’s valid to supposed that if even some ONE thing had happened differently… then 19 men would still be here with us.
THIS is one of those things.
If Blue Ridge had actually arrived in Yarnell when they were SUPPOSED to ( at 6:00 AM )… that would have made THEM the FIRST Hotshot crew on scene.
That means it most likely would have been Brian Frisby ( and Trueheart Brown ) having that initial “What do you think we should do?” conversation in the Yarnell Fire Station parking lot that morning.
Granite Mountain didn’t arrive in Yarnell until about 6:45 AM.
Eric Marsh would have most likely ALSO then shown up a the YFD station and participated in that first ‘planning meeting’… but if Frisby had been there first then the actual out-on-the-ridge secure-anchor-point assignment might have ALREADY gone to Blue Ridge… NOT Granite Mountain.
So there very well could have been a complete ‘role-reversal’ that day if Blue Ridge had arrived when they said they were going to.
It could have been Blue Ridge ‘out there’ in the boondock that day and Granite Mountain in closer to town, like Blue Ridge ended up doing.
Complete conjecture, fer sure, but no more so than the myriad of other things that one can point to that weekend and say “If only…”.
So yea… it’s STILL pretty important to know why a Type 1 IHC Hotshot crew that was assigned to Yarnell the night before ended up 2 to 2 and 1/2 hours LATE for their assigned arrival time.
Followup…
At the very least… if Frisby had been there at that first planning meeting at the the YFD… it’s pretty much a given that he would have also been looking at the same iPad that Gary Cordes was using to show Eric Marsh where the Boulder Springs Ranch really was.
How that knowledge might have ‘changed the outcome’ that day is also a matter of conjecture… but we at least KNOW that there wouldn’t have been all this confusion on Frisby’s part about WHERE Granite Mountain was heading when they said they were using their “pre-determined escape route from this morning”.
Like Cordes… Frisby would have then at least been the SECOND person on the Yarnell side of the fire who knew EXACTLY what that meant.
Whether ( from Frisby’s perspective once hearing that ) that might have cause him to do an “intervention” and say something like “You do NOT have time for that… stay where you are”…
…we’ll never know.
But at least it wouldn’t have taken 2 hours to find the bodies ( or 2 hours to finally reach any of them who *might* have still been alive of things had gone a little differently ).
Frisby would have known exactly what Marsh and Cordes knew, and SOMETHING might have turned out differently because of that ‘knowledge”.
WTKTT,
I agree that “there very well could have been a complete ‘role-reversal’ that day if Blue Ridge had arrived when they said they were going to.”
And if the BRHS was the HS Crew in the perfectly good SZ, they would have stayed put and likely the GMHS would have not killed themselves in Yarnell-proper, and we wouldn’t be discussing this.
As far as the benefit of the BRHS attending the briefing, see my reply to you below.
And no harm, no foul, on the agree to disagree point. It’s NOT personal.
Marti,
This is a little off topic, but what’s new with that? And it may interest you because I think you are a person who is interested in the whole metaphysical thing. Plus, my wife just left for work and there isn’t anything good on TV and it’s too early to start drinking shots of Tequila.
It has been a few years since I told my car accident story and I was trying to give the Readers Digest version because I was into “the whole brevity thing” (The Big Lebowski).
And on a side note RTS, I know I shouldn’t really believe I am Unbreakable, that was just a play off one of my favorite movies…”Unbreakable”, because that is how I feel even though it is not logical. I should have been killed that day. I have a tumor in my brain that may be killing me, but I will not die from trauma…because I am Unbreakable.
We had been doing about 80 miles an hour (or more) which used to be the accepted way to cross the vast and barren Navajo Reservation, especially if you had red and blue lights hidden in your grill guard. We came up behind that semi and the driver (my boss, the Special Agent-in-Charge) was forced to slow down because it was on hill with double yellow lines which I am sure saved my life.
So in the end, I am confident that I had much less time to assess the situation than either your brother or my father had to assess theirs. When I first saw the oncoming car it was coming off the nose of that semi like a fullback from hell head down and giving it all he had first and goal. We were probably the standard distance behind the semi for going 60 miles an hour….about the length of one car.
So…I am sure I had only a couple of seconds or less to evaluate my status. The New Mexico State Police accident reconstruction expert determined that we impacted at MORE THAN 120 miles per hour. My supervisor had stuck his handgun in the crack between our seats and the force of the impact was so terrific that the site from that gun ripped through my heavy Levi pants and tore a gash down the side of my thigh. Of course I have never experienced anything like that accident before or sense. The energy that was released inside that vehicle shortly after impact was like nothing I can even try to describe.
But here comes the metaphysical part and it is no bullshit…even though I am a bullshitter. My mind was able to slow down the time and space continuum so that I was able to watch what was happening in slow motion like I was watching an old fashioned movie where the individual frames click by one after the other. It was really weird.
I actually had time to see what was about to happen, analyzing the situation for possible corrective action and then decide the situation was hopeless and the impending collision could not be avoided. All in the amount of time it took us to close the length of a semi truck at more than 120 miles per hour. The mind is a very powerful force…if you can control it.
I’m not even remotely comprehending what you are saying here, Gary:
“Marti,
This is a little off topic, but what’s new with that? And it may interest you because I think you are a person who is interested in the whole metaphysical thing. Plus, my wife just left for work and there isn’t anything good on TV and it’s too early to start drinking shots of Tequila.”
But I’ll riff off of it.
I’ve had a nice laid-back Xmas, with a brunch with my daughter, complete with tamales and red chile infused wine and I’m not sure what you mean by the metaphysical thing. But I’m sitting here drinking my usual hot orange juice and rum, which I typically do to put myself to sleep.
I’m not, actually, that much of a “dreamer,” metaphysically or otherwise. I’ve definitely experienced/survived my share of real-life stuff. But I still push myself to believe in my ideals and attempt to fight for them (as I think you, obviously, do, also).
And, I really appreciate your responding to what I said about my brother’s (who was also, by the way, an Eagle Scout at the age of 15 when he died) horrific death. When I was told what I was told about him, maybe going into shock before he hit the ground on his head, I was a grand total of 13 years old.
What I was told may not have been true (as your description of your accident may indicate). But it helped me carry on as best I could. Which, given the chaos that surrounded me in my family, at least helped me sleep at night, at that very young age. I appreciate your graphic description of what the GM Hotshots were experiencing. I am old enough now to imagine what my brother probably experienced, also.
Metaphysically, the most I can say is that I believe in a Universe that is both evolving and vastly more intelligent (in its own way) than we can even imagine. I am no longer a Christian (after 35 years of being a United Church of Christ Minister, including pastoring First Congregational Church of Flagstaff), although I try to follow the teachings of the brown Aramaic brother Jesus.
I have no fricking clue what happens to us when we die. But I do love and value indigenous teachings that our spiritual identities, as a product of the Universe, are reclaimed by that Universe, in some way, and, thus, continue to speak to us. I believe our Ancestors speak. I believe everything speaks.
I am a child of both Science and Spirituality. I think both are in play in the Universe. I was employed by Lowell Observatory in Flagstaff for two years, to write about what the astronomers there were working on. I was hired to do that by the Director of Lowell Observatory, who was also a member of the church that I had been the Pastor of, because of my understanding of science. That had nothing to do with “dreaming.”
That Lowell Observatory Director taught a two-semestor course on Cosmological Evolution at NAU which, because I was writing about the Observatory, I was “allowed” to audit, ie, attend.
When I was the Religious Network Coordinator of the Legal Office, located in Flagstaff, set up by the Sovereign Dine Nation to attempt to stop Relocation, and I was coordinating 300 global religious organizations fighting Relocation, my work was a combination of both idealism and “realpolitik.” I saw the best and the worst.
I spent hours sitting across the desk with John McCain, arguing with him. My chief opponent, who I went head to head against, in the press, was a Hopi woman who was a shill for Peabody Coal Company, who, in that fight, basically owned the power-brokers of the Hopi Nation.
We, and the Dine resisters, lost that fight, I believe, because our very own lawyers colluded with our opponents. I could write a freaking book (like you are working on) about that whole corrupt thing. I know too much about that and I know too much about this.
I am in no way shape or form a “dreamer.” But I still hold to my ideals. And I totally appreciate that you do, also. Thank you for being a part of this citizens investigation.
Namaste, and a very merry Christmas to you, Gary. I really hope we can meet some time face to face.
Marti, You might find this story interesting given your background on the Rez… http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/dark-days-on-black-mesa-6423140
Thank you John.
I really appreciate your work on this.
Peabody and the British Company working out the water of the Hopi and the lawyer playing both sides and screwing the Hopi. Sounds like good old British and American greed at work. The Mormon Udall speaking about the conflict of interest but what is he doing about conserving the Hopi interests in their water?
Mormons have a special interest in Indian affairs and necessarily by their religious belief are behooved to protect Native American interests. Lets hope he follows through.
All those big mining companies have left plenty pollution, use of Native American resources and land damage behind. That Uranium mining is in close proximity to the coal mining at Gallup. There was plenty of dump of Uranium ore brought to the surface at Seboyeta, NM on the Laguna reservation to taint surface waters as well as ground waters above the Uranium deposits deep below the surface rock.
But this is not the only way reservations are raped. If you get onto the Apache reservation out of Ruidoso, NM you will see where the timber companies have left a thin line of trees along the roads to cover barren land that had been strip cut. That was managed by BIA and we wonder how that could happen under their management. Sure the Indians did profit but at the cost of their resources and beautiful forest turned to barren waste land.
The article brings me back to Yarnell. Likely those mine tailings just off the graded road leading down the hill to Stanton are loaded with cyanide. That is about a quarter mile from Glen Isla to the SE but likely would be more of a hazard to people using surface water toward Stanton. We do know the Congress mine tailings are fenced off and a great hazard to Congress both due to surface pollution as well as ground water pollution. People in Congress are downhill from the mine and only a couple miles from this poisonous cyanide dump.
There on the Weavers near where the fire was purported to start are some old gold mines. The size of the dumps indicate that they were worked for a number of years. Where was the ore milled? That mine is definetly a source of pollution for waters in Yarnell since rain and snow runoff runs directly into Yarnell. I did look at the water sheets from our local water company. It encouraged me to install a water purifier in my cabin here. I don’t suggest you drink the tap water here.
Good article John writes exposing how the big companies put profit before preservation of reservation and life.
We were discussing what happens in your mind, in particular the mind of your brother when he fell off the 350 cliff and the doctor told you he probably went into shock and near unconsciousness as he fell to his death so that implied the fall wasn’t all that bad for him because he was out of it as he fell to his death and then you equated that with hoping that the Granite Mountain Crew was hopefully somehow sedated through some kind of metaphysical out of this world (as in what a dreamer would think) zen induced mind control so they didn’t know they are about to die or feel any pain as they were being burned alive while coughing up their burning lung tissue so hard it dislocated their tongues from the back of their mouths. Do you remember now?
And then I said NO, it is quite the opposite from my personal experience that when you are faced with what you believe is imminent death the very opposite occurs your mind sharpens, your situation becomes crystal clear and all of your senses are focused like a laser beam because countless thousands of years of genetic engineering kicks in as your mind searches desperately for a way to enable your body to survive what is coming at you, either the rocks and earth as you fall through the air to your death in the case of your brother and my father or a fire storm of biblical proportions in the case of the hotshots or a 5000 pound missile driven by a drunk person in mine?
“HELLO MCFLY, ANYBODY HOME?” (Back To The Future_
And you may not be a dreamer who is into the whole metaphysical thing by your standards, your associations and your background but by mine, (and I will admit that I lack the vocabulary or life experiences to describe who you are but I try to relate in my own clumsy way because if it wasn’t for this thread you and I are so different neither one of us would ever consider trying to relate to the other one unless we were stuck in an elevator for a few day together)..
AND furthermore, I found it very offensive that you would imply somehow that what the GMIHC experienced could possibly have been lessened even one iota by equating their impending deaths with what your brother experienced and that somehow because you believe your brother went into near unconsciousness which made his death easier on him to experience you or you to deal with.
And yes, you may have been 13 when the doctor told you that and good for the doctor to tell that to a 13 year old to help her deal with her brothers tragic death but you aren’t 13 anymore and you told the same story today as thought somehow it could be true in order to help me….or us….or the families? Deal with the deaths of those hotshots by making us feel better just as the doctor made you feel better.
I think we I owe it to my father to understand the terror he felt as he fell do his death, and I think it is important for you to understand the terror your brother felt as he fell to his death and I certainly think the world owes it to the Granite Mountain Hotshots to understand the terror and pain they went through before blessed death released them from their agony and maybe, just maybe, if wildland firefighters now and in the future maybe will follow the safety rules better so they don’t put themselves in the same situation, especially if they are supervisors so they won’t put those who they are responsible for into those situation to experience what the hotshots went through.
We can best do that by being honest we ourselves and others and accepting the truth. Son-of-a-bitch…I find trying to get through to you a real challenge.
whoops
and maybe, just maybe, if wildland firefighters now and in the future maybe will follow the safety rules better so they don’t put themselves in the same situation, especially if they are supervisors so they won’t put those who they are responsible for into those situation to experience what the hotshots went through IT WON’T HAPPEN AGAIN FOR A LONG, LONG TIME, HOPEFULLY NEVER!.
“I find trying to get through to you a real challenge.”
Wow, Gary.
You got through to me in your first response to my honest but mistaken thought. I was not trying to justify anything, and I now really wish I had said nothing.
For some reason you have decided you need to keep pounding it into me. You don’t. I get it. I got it the first time.
Have a nice day.
Marti said:
“I’m not even remotely comprehending what you are saying here, Gary:
But I’ll riff off of it.
I’ve had a nice laid-back Xmas, with a brunch with my daughter, complete with tamales and red chile infused wine and I’m not sure what you mean by the metaphysical thing. But I’m sitting here drinking my usual hot orange juice and rum, which I typically do to put myself to sleep.”
And I say,” I don’t know where I could possibly have gotten the idea that you needed the concept pounded into you….”
Oh…wait a minute now I remember it’s because you said this,
“I’m not even remotely comprehending what you are saying here, Gary:
But I’ll riff off of it.
I’ve had a nice laid-back Xmas, with a brunch with my daughter, complete with tamales and red chile infused wine and I’m not sure what you mean by the metaphysical thing. But I’m sitting here drinking my usual hot orange juice and rum, which I typically do to put myself to sleep.”
And there are many police departments across the country who specifically forbid their officers from using the phrase;
“Have a nice day”
at the end of a contact with a citizen because in circumstances like this, at the end of an argument, what it really means is….FUCK YOU
Oh…Jeez…is that news to you as well? That is NOT what you really meant? You are just too nice and former Prescott College mellow yellow to say or think that AND you really meant “Have a nice day” as opposed to “Fuck You Asshole”
Unlike you, I am not interested in buying a bridge that connects Brooklyn with the rest of New York City.
So…Have a nice day!.
I don’t even know how to respond to you any more, Gary.
So I guess I just won’t.
Maybe those falls are different for different folks. I once fell more than 30 ft. in a raise I was driving for Fierro mines out of Silver City NM. About all I had time to think was aw shit then hit a wet muck pile and sunk up to my groin. Then I felt shaky and did have a time getting my rubber boots out., That well could have been my last fall since a jack leg was following me down but fortunately did not land on my head. No broken bones and just sloshy boots. The other fall I fell off in an 80 foot shaft that had already killed a 7 year old girl. Fortunately I had a rope tied to a mesquite above and fell only ten or 15 feet before hitting the end of the rope and swinging back and forth over that hole. That one was kind of fun looking down that shaft and knowing I wasn’t going to hit the bottom. I climbed out thanking myself I had taken a notion to tie off. Miners have no safety rules except wearing glasses and being told to stay out of open stopes. Maybe they want you to tie off if you hang off a mine hole but I was never told.
I can say that when I was having that heart attack November 30 and even though I hate flying, this time I had no fear what so ever. In fact I did not care if that copter would crash and we had to attain a high altitude to go from Congress at about 3000 elevation to over the weavers at 5800 elevation. I hated to go back to that hospital that had operated on me the 12th of November. And on that time I had died according to doctors but their efforts, shocks, and cpr brought me around. When I did come alive I kind of wish I had not since now I was in pain, especially once the morphine wore off. I did not see Jesus, white lights, out of body or any of what some see–just black and peaceful.
So dying isn’t so bad, it is just getting there that can be painful.
Thanks Sonny.
Spent some time doing some reading around yesterday. And, yeah, I think it depends, when it comes to falling. Whew, read some amazing stuff. People have survived some INCREDiBLE falls. And then there’s 9-11, Yikes.
But sometimes the actual impact can happen faster than the body’s ability to transmit neurological signals and the brain to process them. So, from what I read, it is possible, in a fatal fall, for somebody to not actually consciously “experience” the impact before they die because of these time-lags.
And the extreme adrenaline rush, due to extreme fear, can do some interesting things, also, including cause an actual fatal heart-attack before impact. From what I read, that could have been the case for some of the 200 people who jumped/fell from the Twin Towers on 9-11.
I’ve experienced what Gary experienced in terms of that slow-down of perception, also. A couple of times in “almost” auto crashes that didn’t happen. Because of that, I really get what he is saying about that. I don’t know what causes that, and I didn’t come across that yet, but I do know it’s real. I don’t dispute that.
My own actual worst experience was being thrown into a Redwood Tree in King’s Canyon from a horse running at top speed. It doesn’t compare with what either you or Gary or my brother experienced, I don’t think. But I was seriously SLAMMED into that tree as the Hungarian that I was riding (at top speed) reared, turned, and slammed me backwards into that tree. I actually don’t remember hitting the tree under the weight and force of that horse.
The results of that impact were nothing like what Gary is describing in his accident. But what I remember is a sense of both slow and fast chaos and then “going” unconscious. Before, during, or after impact, I don’t know. But I don’t remember the actual hit. I just remember coming out of it. The hit knocked me unconscious. I didn’t “feel” the hit.
I just remember “coming to.” Everybody was gathered around me. My coach slowly got me moving, examined my back, and, as soon as he ascertained that my back was not injured, nor my head (although in these days that might have been done differently), he made me get back on that horse and continue riding/jumping it. We were jumping redwoods in Kings Canyon. He knew that if I didn’t do that, I’d probably never get on a horse again.
My back, without any broken bones or whatever, was scraped and bruised seriously. It slowly became incredibly painful. But that wasn’t immediate. I was given a bunch of salve and stuff for that. The next week was Thanksgiving, and I went home for that.
I had to have my mother rub that stuff into my back. She didn’t ask, and I didn’t tell her, exactly what had happened. She would have completely freaked out if she had known, all things considered.
My jumping horses was my way of counter-acting her total (and justified) freak-out regarding my brother’s death. She became hyper-protective of me, and I, in my rebellious youthfulness, did everything I could in opposition to that.
Anyways, I’m not saying any of this applies to how the 19 experienced that horrific burnover.
I’m also not saying none of this applies. I don’t know. I’m not sure anybody does.That’s where I was trying to begin to go/think about. Before Gary took complete and total offense to it. All things considered, it’s probably a subject left unbroached here. Whew.
Which is why I really do appreciate your actually responding to me in a non-reactionary and non-judgemental manner.
Best of everything to you Sonny. Keep Kicking!
Now that the piranha-like feeding frenzy has slowed and the bloodied waters have cleared ….
WTKTT,
You POSTED: “For a moment there, in this thread, it simply seemed like you were trying to do another one of your “I know something but I can’t tell you how I know it” dances.”
And what if I was doing that? So what? Dances? Highly unlikely in this category. WTF!? You have every right to ASK the question(s) and I have every right to NOT answer them. And it’s not that I can’t tell you how I know, it’s that I chose NOT to tell you. So PULEEEEZE get over it.
Regarding the GMHS Crew Carrier radios. I am NOT with Woodsman on this one. Who says ‘you simply don’t ‘fuck with [the] truck’ when it’s NOT yours.” I’ve NEVER heard that one before. It’s Government property and you’re performing official business, so you have every professional right to use it. And Fire Order #7 requires it!
And next, says who again? – “You do NOT get into some other Hotshot Crew Carrier and start ‘touching’ ANYTHING.” Really? Since when? See above for same answer.
And says who once again? – “Not even radio switches.” Since when? Again, see above for identical answer.
And says who even once more? – “You just drive it … And listen to the radio…and you then HEAR things.” Really? Once again see above. If their Crew Net is priority, then that’s ALL you hear and that’s just NOT enough. Again, see above. Fire Order #7 demands it!
Regarding the BRHS and the Sesame Clearing and Cutover Trail alleged Escape Route and/or Safety Zone issue you’re SOOOO concerned about, I think they did just fine and you are definitely taking a HUGE leap down the Slippery Slope here on the ‘for the sake of just a few minutes’ they would have been cut off and ‘probably have had to deploy” blather. WTF!? Really?
“ADOSH never issued any citation for THIS near-miss entrapment of Blue Ridge ….” Sooooo dramatic when they were just following The Rules and going about their business. Running is always the preferred alternative to burning or shelter deployments. Or ‘Running as fast as they could’ just MAY have been to get to their Crew Carriers because their supervisors had another mission or priority for them. The BRHS made plenty of GOOD Decisions With GOOD Outcomes on the YH Fire that day in spite of what you want to believe as well as many WFF that day.
As far as Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon’s concerns, they are a separate Resource responsible for themselves and those they supervise, for their own safety. “… So what aren’t we seeing?” He asks. Exactly, … they weren’t seeing the impending wind shift and bending smoke column. NO lookout or maybe NOT listening to his adjoining forces talking about changing conditions or maybe even though there were tons of indicators to clue in on to be getting the heck out of there. How about MOST of the Fire Orders ………
And the reason the BRHS left in time was likely BECAUSE of their lookout(s). There was NO “complete an[d] utter failure of each of the 3 lookouts.” Please explain.
Where do you come up with “… Since all THREE of the ‘lookouts’ that had been designated for the work in Harper Canyon …. Had failed miserably in those ‘lookout’ tasks.” What are you talking about here? Failed miserably? Really?
Cluster f**k? Sure, you bet, for the Engine Crews in The Shrine area and yes, Yowell and Brown “…makin’ sure IDIOTS aren’t burn in’ themselves up …” Pretty typical with Engine Crews. And some of us seem to watch out over them and help them out more than others.
“Bottom line: After the complete an[d] utter failure of each of the 3 lookouts… It was an absolute fluster cluck out there at the end of Shrine road … And ALL those firefighters out there (Blue Ridge included) were lucky they didn’t become just more bodies that would have been hauled out of a Yarnell that weekend.” Once again, such DRAMA. Yes, the Engine Crews were definitely not as skookum as they should have been or could gave been. But you really like to launch down the Slippery Slope on this stuff.
What do you mean by this statement: ” … Where is the accompanying criticism of the process that put them into that “damn lucky to be alive” category in the FIRST place?”
What ‘process’ are you referring to here? And I do NOT believe in luck, so WHAT is the “‘damn lucky to be alive’ category?” How many ‘lucks’ does a person get in their life?
Sun City West FD FF Darby Starr and The Shrine area where at least these FF were following The WFF Rules and paying attention to the changing fire weather and escalating fire behavior. Fire Orders #1 and #3 and #5 and at a minimum, that triggered Fire Order #4 to get the heck out of there!
Gary Olson
Glad to hear you’re an Eagle Scout. I hired Eagle Scouts without ever checking their references and they ALWAYS worked out.
NO ONE on this Earth is ‘unbreakable’ – not even you.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
RTS – Why thank you. I was actually well above an Eagle Scout in rank. Most people don’t know that 21 merit badges (about half are electives) earns you the rank of Eagle Scout (plus a bunch of other stuff like an Eagle Scout project the candidate designs and implements) but I earned three palms (palm leaves) above Eagle Scout, Bronze (5 merit badges) Gold (10 merit badges) and Silver (15 merit badges) I was also a Grand Canyon hiking fanatic. And then I turned 16 and got a drivers license and it all went to hell in a hand basket.
And I do want to apologize for writing that either the Blue Ridge Hotshots or you are lying to me; I keep telling everyone I am an asshole. I don’t think any of you are lying, but I don’t think the gag order is in effect anymore if it really ever was for anything other than keeping government employees from saying or writing anything that could be counter to the government interests in the civil cases that are now all null and void because the families folded just like I said they would because they didn’t have a case in the first place. The only thing worse than an asshole that is almost always right, is one that say’s I told you so. So…I told you so.
Like I said many times on this thread, I actually think they would have had a shot at winning but they needed to cross that Rubicon in their minds they were unable and unwilling to ford. They needed to blame the people who were responsible for the deaths of their loved ones. Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, Darrell Willis, Dan Fraijo and the culture of the Prescott Fire Department and the lack of adequate training to be able to recognize that if the area you are thinking about deploying is not survivable…you must run!
That is because of the exaggerated hyper program on steroids to get wildland firefighter to shift from thinking fire shelters are nearly worthless gimmicks and band aids designed to apply to sucking chest wounds to believing they will save their lives in even the most extreme and catastrophic circumstances where nothing short of (as you said) their very own person size black box (that is actually orange) with an independent oxygen supply would have saved them. That and substandard (substandard hell…I bet it’s nonexistent) training to understand the basic mathematics of “how big is big enough” as I have harped on numerous times on this thread but I never seem to get any traction with it.
Those Grade A assholes in the suits sure can put the fear of God into a working man though. And it’s not what they put in writing or necessarily say, it’s the tone they say it in, the cold stares and the implied threats…that’s what is spooky. And then they always come to your work and talk to your boss first and explain to him or her that they need a quiet place to speak with you privately and they are there to ask for your cooperation in a matter that is critical to the interests of the U.S. Government and then they ask your boss to call you into the conference room without any warning after you have been called back from your normal duties to the office unexpectedly…oh no, wait a minute, that’s what I used to do. Sorry, got lost taking a little trip down memory lane.
I will tell you one thing though, after listening to that Grade A asshole Mike Dudley in that tape downstream, I can tell you man is as of a dark grey of a manager as I have ever had the displeasure of not actually meeting. That son-of-a-bitch would sell his own mother for his next promotion; he is as dirty as they come.
People probably really get tired of reading me brag about my career and talk the talk. The only problem is…I can back it all up because I walked the walk and got the T-shirt.
For example, here is an excerpt from my book that I am currently editing.
“Our fire gods ordered us not to talk about the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster upon our return to the Coconino National Forest from Colorado, even among ourselves and so we never did. We buried everything that happened on the slope of Battlement Mesa in dark places in our minds were it stayed until no one cared any longer about what happened there. The Happy Jack Hotshots were professional wildland firefighters who worshiped their fire gods and so we remained silent while they betrayed us and everyone else with an elaborate deception that is now accepted as the truth. Now I know that many of our fire gods had feet of clay.”
I will tell you how they rolled in 1976. They didn’t even need to bring in any suits for that Kabuki Theater. All they did was bring us into Flagstaff to the Forest Supervisor’s Office, sit the entire crew around a big table in the conference room, close the blinds so the room was dim and have the Forest Fire Management Officer who we all loved and feared in equal parts give us our orders.
You could have heard a pin drop while Bill Buck was ordering us not to discuss the fire with anyone, at anytime, or anywhere. And it worked, we never did. And now nobody gives a shit, hardly any of you have even downloaded my free chapter that tells you how this shit goes down. What makes you think anybody is going to care about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire in a few more years. That sorry bought and paid for son-of-a-bitch Mike Dudley and his masters have already won.
Hey…on a lighter note, Santa just left a few minutes ago. We had some milk and cookies, a few laughs and he was pretty good to me. I hope he finds you as well.
My presents all came in boxes marked with lettering that spelled out…Sig Sauer.
HO HO HO! MERRY CHRISTMAS!
OK…tried to go to sleep but I didn’t make it, so I am going to try this one more time to see if I can get through to any of you out there in cyber space.
The Battlement Creek Fire Disaster is important and relevant because;
1. It is one of four fires where hotshots died in the history of hotshots.
2. It resulted in fire shelters and nomex trousers being required nation wide by all wildland firefighting agencies by the next fire season. Fire shelters were only being carried by fire fighters in R-5 (California) up until the Battlement Creek Fire, even thought the Chief of the U.S. Forest Service HAD ORDERED all hotshot crews to carry fire shelters on all fires in the fuel types that were exactly like were present on the Battlement Creek Fire after 12 El Cariso Hotshots were killed on the Loop Fire of 1966. The Chief ordered that to happen in 1967…about a decade BEFORE the Mormon Lake Hotshots were killed on the Battlement Creek Fire by the Happy Jack Hotshot back fire that was started by me and the other sawyer. I watched this shit GO DOWN! The official Battlement Creek Staff Ride lies and say’s that the Mormon Lake Hotshots a LEFT THEIR FIRE SHELTERS IN FIRE CAMP THAT DAY! It say’s that as of TONIGHT ON THE OFFICIAL WEB SITE AND IN THE TRAINING PROGRAM that is what happened even thought I told them (the NWCG) that wasn’t true in 2006 as a SME and a member of the Battlement Creek Staff Ride Development Committee!
3. The Battlement Creek Fire burned only about THIRTY MILES as the crow flies from the next disaster fire that killed an entire squad (nine) of Prineville Hothshots, 2 helitack, 2 smokejumpers, and 1 fire warden on Storm King Mountain in 1994. These fires burned in exactly in the same kind of fuel, only about 2 weeks apart in the fire season, were both grossly mismanaged fires by the BLM probably about as bad as the Yarnell Hill Fire was managed, and both killed OUT OF STATE HOTSHOTS AND SMOKEJUMPERS who were unfamilar with how explosive frost killed Gamble oak burned! That are too many other similarities between the Battlement Creek and the South Canyon Fires (on Storm King Mtn.) to mention here in this format.
4. The same EXACT THING WAS THE PRIMARY CAUSE OF DEATH OF THE EL CARISO, AND THE MORMON LAKE HOTSHOTS THAT KILLED THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS! And althought I do deeply appreciate the 20 or so people who have shown any interest in the Battlement Creek Fire, that sure as fuck is never gong to help me find a publisher, and like we were alwasy told by the U.S. Attorneys who gave us lectures during our in-services…
whoops, zigged when I should have zagged.
“IF IT ISN’T WRITTEN DOWN…IT DIDN’T HAPPEN!”
So guess what…the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster didn’t even happen! And if we aren’t able to change the trajectory of the Yarnell Hill Fire myth, it might as well didn’t happen either.
I don’t think most of YOU even get it…even after all of this time and effort!.
Well…because I accidentally hit the post button, that tirade has a lot more errors than most of my tirades do because I didn’t event get the change to go back and do any editing, but I think you can still get the gist of it…if any of you are really interested.
And I am not taking about the loyal followers and those who comment on this thread with my disparaging remarks. All of you have proven YOU care,
I am taking about all of the looky loos who hide in the shadows and contribute nothing to this effort. Do something for God’s sake, especially you families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, you had a bully pulpit but you squandered your opportunity with worthless lawsuits, multiple ridiculous wildland firefighter safety foundation run by no-nothings or even worse, those who are pushing harmful agendas.
Don’t any of you care about the next set of wildland firefighter families who are next in line to go through exactly what you went through for exactly the same reason?
SHAME ON ALL OF YOU!
Oh…and one more thing. Being the widow of a dead hotshot doesn’t mean you know shit from shinola about wildland firefighter safety. My God! The absolute arrogance and stupidity of some people!
My dear wife is a very intelligent, highly trained medical professional with more than 35 years of experience as an Intensive Care RN, a Cardiac Care RN who now works with patients who have suffered severe neurological damage to their fucking brains and she makes $120,000 a year doing it AND she was married to a hotshot for 10 years and a hotshot crew boss for 7 years and she has listened to me spout off about this shit for 40 years now and I wouldn’t put her in charge of ordering the fucking coffee for a wildland firefighter safety foundation. WHAT A JOKE!
Gary,
I too am an Eagle Scout with just as many merit badges. Also Brotherhood Order of the Arrow.
I went on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride a few years ago.
I know one of the causal factors was the Crew Boss (Supt) at the time was ‘playing’ (burning out) when he should have been supervising his Crew and paying more attention to the overall operations. And he never delegated someone on the Crew to fill in as Supt. and likely NO lookout.
Another causal factor was the radio warning by the Sector Boss about fire coming up the hill. All the Sector Boss heard was a DOUBLE CLICK response and he ASSUMED it was Morman Lake HS. It was NOT.
The DOUBLE CLICK response was started by the Smokejumpers and still persists today. The problem with this is you don’t know who responded. It could be anyone. Without an actual voice or a name saying ‘copy’ you just never know.
And thanks for the detailed description on the alleged ‘gag order’ bullshit. You’re correct, there was no gag order but it’s what they called it.
Well…Brother Scout. I too am Order of the Arrow but I didn’t think anyone would know what that meant so I didn’t mention it.
And yes, Tony Czak had his head down burning. And now that we have gone this far down into the weeds I will see if I can succinctly state what I KNOW was the primary casual factor in the deaths of 12 El Cariso, 3 Mormon Lake and 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots, which included all of their crew bosses.
I am not forgetting the 9 Prineville Hotshots, but they were an outlying to the most common reason all other hotshots have died simply because unlike the Yarnell Hill Fire, the fire team, if you can it that, that was running the South Canyon Fire under the leadership of 2 poorly qualified men in way over their heads (BLM Engine Foreman Blanco and BLM Smokejumper Mackey) really are responsible for their deaths. Although even though the Prineville hotshot crew boss surrendered control of his squad to others, he did not lose the ultimate responsibility for their welfare.
Now…please keep in mind that this is the Readers Digest Version and there are several nuances that are not appropriate to list in this format. And of course this in not for your benefit, but for the benefit of all of the idiots who are following this thread who still think Denial is only a river in Egypt.
“All of these hotshots died because their crew bosses violated almost all of the safety rules at one time that are in place to keep wildland firefighters alive because of their burning desire to prove that their crews, and therefore THEMSELVES were the very best of the best.”
And right now, there is absolutely nothing in any wildland firefighter history or corrective training that acknowledges this very sad fact. And gullible people are contributing money at this moment to build a multi-million dollar state park in Arizona to memorialize a fraudulent version of history to satisfy the selfish desire of a group of hotshot families and guilt ridden agency, civic and political leaders.
This grotesque edifice to gross incompetence very well may ultimately be a primary casual factor in the deaths of young people who visit the park and believe the lies there that will be carved there in stone who are, or will become wildland firefighters.
Correction, I think Mackey was USFS. I will go back and check that.
In any case, it was the BLM bass ackwards policy of the “first jumper out of the door” that put him in charge when he wasn’t qualified to even be a squad boss much less an IC on a wildfire going to hell in a hand basket, and especially not when teamed up with an equally unqualified engine foreman to play alternating IC that ended up meaning their was no IC, just a bunch of wildland firefighters running up and down Storm King Mountain working above an uncontrolled wildfire fueled by explosive frost killed Gambel oak known with a special identifier of Fuel Type X by the Colorado State Forestry Division because it was known to carry a fire so fast it could run down and kill fleeing deer.
NEWS FLASH…
Yes, the Yarnell Hill Fire burned hot and fast and was unforgiving…but it was far from the first wildfire in history that did the very same thing.
I have to agree to this one. Tax payer dollars for a false memorial that ought to be directed to the benefit of training, equipment and resources badly needed in all areas for wild land fire fighters. I wonder how many of those memorial makers know the truth yet continue the façade. Truth in this incident would have a memorial stating this is one of the worse fuck ups in wild land fire fighting history. Although these bosses thought they knew what they were doing, their mismanagement from the start of the fire resulted in the deaths of men inexperienced enough to break all the rules of wild land fire fighting safety. This should be a training area instead of a memorial area with a memorial on how not to do wild land fire fighting management if you want your men to stay alive and well.
That is exactly how I have read all of the information pertaining to the South Canyon Fire and as I understand Mackey’s reputation to have been within his circle.
Thank you for stepping forward and agreeing on this, .all of our credibility is at stake if we say Eric Marsh did everything wrong while at the same time we say;
“I knew Mackey and he was a well qualified FF
A DIVS the last I knew Storm King Happened the Year I retired and I worked with and was on training sessions with him. He still made a major mistake and some of the Jumpers on the Line knew better. I knew a couple that Died for several years.”
And I am not going to put my credibility at risk to cover for Mackey. In spite of how much respect I have for Bob and what he has accomplished.
A well qualified FF and A DIV does NOT make all of the mistakes Mackey made and he certainly did not make “A” mistake, he broke almost all of the rules at once without a back up plan just as much as Eric Marsh did.
Gary– I knew Mackey and he was a well qualified FF
A DIVS the last I knew Storm King Happened the Year I retired and I worked with and was on training sessions with him. He still made a major mistake and some of the Jumpers on the Line knew better. I knew a couple that Died for several years.
They were FS out of McCall Idaho.
Well excuse me Bob, but I know someone very well who I respect even more than you based on his experiences and accomplishments as all things wildland firefighter who knew Mackey very well and he has quoted to me several times that Mackey WAS NOT QUALIFIED TO EVEN BE THE EQUIVALENT OF SQUAD BOSS MUCH LESS AN IC OF A COMPLEX FIRE!
So…I am going to go with his recommendation on this BOB and completely disregard your assessment because you are at times too much of an apologist for the system..
And if we simply disregard either your opinion of Mackey and the opinion of my source and look at what we know about Mackey’s record, HE WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST FUCKING IDIOTS WHO EVER SUITED UP BECAUSE HE HAD EVERYBODY ON HIS FIRE WORKING ABOVE AN UNCONTROLLED WILDFIRE IN FUEL TYPE X ON A FIRE THAT WAS NOT ANCHORED AFTER IT HAD ALREADY EXPERIENCED THE UNDER STORY BURNING WHICH EVEN FURTHER DRIED OUT THE OVER STORY OF THE FROST KILLED GAMBLE OAK.
Mackey violated all of your fucking precocious never to be violated rules all at once and he killed a lot of people. There are way too many people running around out there with DIV that should not be one. Eric Who?
I”m sorry to be the one to tell you this Bob, but your buddy was a Grade A Fuck Up.
I know that I am right because he is dead and I am sitting here blogging about it.
And if I used this persons name Bob, you would say, “Excuse I stand corrected, I guess jsut becaue I put on a training sessijion with a guy doesn’t mean he qualified to be an IC of a complex fire because now that I think about it, he did kill a bunch of wildland firefighters because he viloated the most basic rules, he was working them ABOOVE AN UNCONTROLLED AND UNANCHORED WILDFIRE IN AN EXPLOSIVE FUEL TYPE!”
It’s OK Bob, I knew and worked with some fuck ups too, and some of them are dead as well.
“What did he [Mackey} do wrong?”
“EVERYTHING!” (Black Mass)
Gary,
Thanks for opening up and sharing about the several historical fatality fires and the common, SERIOUS lack of and/or piss poor leadership. And that includes Don Mackey, whom the Smokejumpers (SJ) idolize as a hero. And he was Forest Service.
There was quite a bit of animosity over him getting his permanent position over those that were much more qualified.
I think SJ in general lack leadership skills. Way too cavalier and unsafe for me. Mackey wanted to be everyone’s friend rather than The Boss. And so, BOSS spelled backwards is Double S-O-B. You’re NOT there to be everyone’s friend, you’re there to be the BOSS.
There were SO many things wrong that led up to their deaths, e.g. Lack of Leadership, ignoring fire weather and fire behavior indicators, serious Human Factors issues, including ignoring the concerns of various WFF on scene (totally blacked out witness statement excerpts) on “WTF are we doing here, why are we doing this?,” and the need to cut lower the pungi-stick-like brush stabs that seriously hindered their escape time along their established Escape a Route from their lunch spot to,the helicopter saddle area.
LOTS of lies and coverup on this fire.
OK All I said was he was qualified I also said he Fucked up along with several others on the crew who were as well Qualified as he was.
I knew him he was not a personal friend I worked on a couple of Fires with him and a couple of training sessions at NIFC.
If you reread my statement they FUCKED UP.
I think where you ‘stepped in it’, Bob, is when you described Mackey as a “WELL qualified ff.” It’s that word ‘well.’…implying above and beyond just plain ol’ qualified. Others apparently have it on good authority that was not true at that time.
It’s alright, I have to clean my boots all the time.
Woodsman
The Smokejumper (SMJ) that did things right on the 1994 South Canyon Fire was named Dale Longanecker. He didn’t even carry a fire shelter that day, and had his sack lunch in the shelter case instead, which is fairly common knowledge in the WFF circles. And, best of all, he sought refuge in a safe area with other SMJ’s.
Here’s the link to the very comprehensive Colorado Fire Camp series of the 1994 South Canyon Fire on Storm King Mountain, Colorado.
http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/south-canyon-fire/chronology-2.htm
Pay special attention to the photos in FIGURE 29 and note the airbrushed areas in all 3 photos. That’s where the dead WFF’s were airbrushed from the photos in the name of ‘sensitivity.’
Gary, your experience of setting a back fire at the Battlement Creak Fire rings to the Yarnell incident. Joy and I saw a back fire being lit above the Shrine area and that was before we were educated about these back fires. There is a u tube that is not deleted that is a continuation of the u tube showing the fire fighters lighting with their torches along the dirt road just above the Shrine. The wind was whipping trees just like you see in the continuation photo and they show to be whipping toward the SW same as the wind would have been as those fire fighters were lighting. The u tube video you see is just minutes after the one we saw that was deleted. If you study where they were back burning and considering the extreme wind conditions directed toward the Helms you can know that that back burn had something to do with trapping the 19. Of course those men doing that backburn had no idea that it would do that since I would expect they believed the GMHS were in the black or knew enough not to drop down into a trap. It shows how the elite bosses were way off base that day doing things they had no idea would kill 19.
Sonny, could you provide the link to the video you are talking about?
Does box say A M M O or G U N S?
Merry Christmas
Well, first of all, Sig Sauer does not make ammo to my knowledge, and secondly, it is BOXES not BOX! Hee, hee, hee
Santa was very good to me because I have been a very good boy this past year.
And Merry Christmas right back at you.
I know a lot about weaponry —and you probably been on IM a bit much and its been over a year that I remember when ammo was introduced to that manufacturer-
Sonny sent this above message when I walked away to go use the bathroom which was incomplete and I was not going to post it like that- but it is facts that I do know about certain topics and YHF unknowns is not one and knowing people but my immediate circle is another and well yes I know a lot about guns except reloading like Sonny knows but never was much an interest either because in this cookie cutter world I went to Sportsman Warehouse or Cabela’s and got my needs but because of Sonny he taught me how to walk the desert and take brass and taught me how to use used brass and how to clean it up and reload vs being cookie cutter and walking into a store…I am on ol’ trick gun slinging pistol packing mama in the early days much like Annie Oakley—I just came back from Congress Holiday day and came here to Sonny’s PTSD hyper dog Agnes…read your comment in disbelief you had no idea Sig had ammo line…the only thing still in question are they the real manufacturer behind the product—Does it function/cycle normally? reasonably accurate? how does it perform compared to other available self-defense loads? I’m no ballistics expert, so I’ll leave it to you to examine the information out there in cyber world but I have my line I like and its not Sig—you would love to come to Congress and shoot all the old WWI and WWII weapons the old timers have and usually is done Spring time—a few good fellas died in the past few years but it is a fun day of shooting with good ol’ folks—Hey, anyone having to face a loss this Holiday…sorry for your loss- I am learning what it means— you want answers and not seeing the answers quick enough or the right investigation on it—what just happen to me made me think of the unknown answers of the YHF I now have on my own father—strange world we live in—strange. However it was cool to reconnect to people from my childhood and one of the main people was Wally Pottle from Payson, Arizona who is a logger—he was my dad’s best pal in the 70’s/80’s and in talking to him he mentioned a man named Cody (Payson EMT)—HI CODY, would you like to come to IM and talk about the YHF…or are you much like many and its the past and move on…also with the loss of my father I learned my cousin Mike Roselle who works at Prescott Post Office- his daughter Nacole` knew one of the men and knows one of the widows and so maybe through his passing I will gain more clarity to the YHF because right now his passing is unsettling for me—
I am happy to say I was one to read that first chapter. That ought to be required reading for the fire fighting professionals, Mike and Darrell would both benefit greatly and any green horn immensely. I as an uneducated person on wild land fire fighting have gained much from Gary’s work–but also from all contributing here. Thank you. . That stuff seems too dangerous to me so I am glad we have the brave men doing this good work. They deserve the best in pay, equipment, instruction and education into the realities of firefighting methods and procedures and rules that will keep them alive. Some of the books I have read on the Yarnell Hill Fire and other wild fires make for fun reading but belong on the fiction shelves. Gary’s book will sting some but it is factual and non-fiction.
Well in my younger days and even today I would be glad to run up the hill and take a stab at putting out a beginning fire such as that lightening strike that happened on Friday two days before it killed 19 men on June 30, 2013. You see my Dad and I had handled lightening strikes by pick and shovel back in my youth when we lived in an army tent while he did his mining and prospeting with hand steel and single jack and 40% Apache powder packed in his four foot drill holes with a wooden tamping stick. He taught me how to light fuses with a short piece of dynamite fuse split on the end. It shoots out sparks and you can light ten or twelve fuses rather quickly with the sparks shooting off the end of the short igniter fuse.
You see in those days with no phone and no cell phone even existing and a forest ranger station some 38 miles away with rough dirt road to get out we had best take care of those strikes ourselves if we wanted to keep the camp from being burned out by a spreading fire. Now we had more climbing and no roads to take us anywhere near those strikes. They were more than a mile and approximately the steepness of what the GMHS crew went down on their decline to the death basin.
Still we were able to contain three of those in one day, then the next day Dad did make a trip into Silver City, NM to tell the forest rangers about the still smoldering trees that he feared might get past our brush clearing. It goes to say that today if Yarnell area were to get a strike and the conditions were as we had that day of June 28, 2013 then I personally would climb up there with a shovel and ax and go to work on it myself and anyone who was sensible enough to know that you do not allow a lightening strike to move in conditions and situations that we have here. I had believed with two fire departments viewing the fire that this situation would not need a fellow such as myself to do their work so I did not respond. You see we had lunk heads here who do not understand wild land fires–they might do well as EMTs and did save my life by putting me on a copter last week and dropping me off in Prescott but they surely do not know that a fire near manzanita in dry hot conditions is an absolute emergency akin to my heart attack–needs immediate attention or the results may be the same–death and destruction. In the Yarnell scenario, it was 19. At the hospital Joy tells me there were about 9 in ICU, while I was in, mostly heart victims, and she had calls that I was the only one that came out alive. Maybe I was ignorant like Donut cause I sighned myself out against advice.
If things like this are not brought out and truth revealed then how will we save future lives in this profession. My good friend and also a top investigator, long time smoke jumper, is disgusted with how these things are handled and goes along much with Gary here and I quote him
“With most the people associated with the Yarnell Fire not telling the truth as they know it…lying that is…digital copies of talks are at a premium. I personally do not trust what most the witness have told us. Too many have told me they did not yet told the whole truth. Net effect is that firefighters will continue to die. Not much of a fire cultural legacy we live in. We would rather let each other die horrible deaths than dirty our collective images. Sigh!”
I could not find better words to describe what we are seeing here and what Gary described in the previous cover ups he has witnessed.
Merry Christmas, I am hoping to get a copy of Gary Olsen’s book before next Christmas. I really believe it will be a best seller for truth is stranger and to me more interesting than fiction.
Thank you so much Sonny! And I got another one of my Christmas wishes because Sonny is still here with us, sharing the wisdom and insight he gained during a lifetime of attending the University of Hard Knocks.!
RTS:
Merry Christmas!
I didn’t say “don’t fuck with the truck,” WTKTT did. All I was trying to say was that the BR drivers had their BK’s on their chest harness and it wouldn’t make sense to me for them to turn off the crewnet (possibly set to priority) on the GM buggies. If the ‘owners’ of the vehicles they were moving tried to talk to them, having their crewnet available would be one more channel of comm.
I agree that WTKTT has made some leaps about BR being lucky to not be one more casualty out there. I think that’s bull. They showed that they were following the rules and did what competent HS crews do. I think WTKTT has picked up a lot of what we do pretty damn well but lacks experience in order to grasp it all fully. Hell, I don’t and I’ve done it for 16 years!
I exist it a state of utter frustration at the way the entire Yarnell has gone down. If I read something here that I think needs to be questioned or challenged, I do it. I respect you and your experience. The fact is this is not about me, you, Bob, Gary, or anyone else. To me it’s about learning about the truth of Yarnell and taking whatever measures are needed to prevent anyone from having to go through it again…no matter who’s feelings get hurt. I also welcome being corrected because the end game is truth, honesty, honor and improvement in the way we ‘fight’ wildfire. (an old timer told me one time: ‘don’t’ “fight” the fire….just put it out.”)
So no you don’t have to answer anyone’s questions or tell them how you know it, BUT, I sure wish folks that are sitting on all of this information would help with closure in this. A hotshot crew doesn’t die without something seriously having gone wrong. You have seen first hand the coverups, let’s make this one better for the future wildland firefighters and those who love them. I would think that it would be hard on those sitting on critical evidence to have to live with that…keeping it tucked away in a dark place. That must be torture. I can’t help but think there are those that want an opportunity to get it all off their chest but don’t know how. That adds to the tragedy in my opinion.
Thank you for the discourse and Merry Christmas!!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I merely quoted from his reply. I felt pretty confident you didn’t say that about the HS radios. I knew what you were trying to say. Like I said, Hot Shot radios are Government property. And even if they were other than HS radios, it’s The Kings business. And they’ll get over it.
I think WTKTT and Marti have come a very long way in understanding what WFF need to do to stay safe while getting the job done while following the WFF Rules. WTKTT is pretty intelligent and that he thrives on his self-induced drama and histrionics at times.
Brian Frisby and tHe BRHS are one of the most competent HS in the nation as far as I’m concerned. They were instrumental in providing the needed leadership that day as well as saving citizens’ lives that day. Notwithstanding the GMHS, there would be mayhem, death, and destruction without good, content Hot Shot Crews.
I think I understand your frustrations about the YH Fire and other fatality fires. We most definitely need to learn as much of what happened on all these fires to truly benefit from Lessons Learned.
There are ALWAYS going to be WFF and Supervisors and Managers and Chiefs and Directors that have good information that will cower and hide like cockroaches rather than reveal the truth. They will be lock-step with the ‘Party Line’ and do and say (or not say) whatever they’re told to do.
And you will ALWAYS discover information on these fatality fires a YEARS later. I’m still finding things out about the Dude Fire from 1990 and the 1994 South Canyon Fire and the 1949 Mann Gulch Fire. Those that hid and/or suppress the truth definitely pay a toll on their emotional, mental, and spiritual health. PTSD and its offshoots abound in various stages with these folks and the powerful yet subtle ‘triggers’ that remind them of the past do NOT just go away unless they’re admitted they exist and then dealt with. It’s difficult but needs to be done. TALKING about what happened and why and much more is good for healing and certainly good for trying to rectify the system and the process, as WTKTT says.
“Have nothing to do with the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” Ephesians 5:11
CORRECTION: should read “…. Without good, COMPETENT Hot Shot Crews.”
RTS,
Below you told me that if you were in the same situation as those that were under some sort of ‘administrative orders to keep mouths shut,’ you would talk and tell the whole truth…what makes you different from them? What do you believe is the reason there has not been anyone that would handle this the way you would?
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Because I believe the MANY biblical verses that tell us not to fear man. Here’s one: “When I am afraid, I will trust in you. In God, whose word I praise, in God I trust; I will not be afraid. What can mortal man do to me?” Psalm 56:3-4
FEAR! I believe FEAR is the reason that there have not been others willing to get involved, to speak up, and to reveal what they know.
Tolerance WTKTT, tolerance.
What do you believe is the object(s) of their fear, RTS?
I’m not trying to set you up here. I sincerely want to know.
Thank you.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
The objects of their fears are the usual numerous fears, e.g. Lack of career advancement, lack of friends, fear of being labelled as a troublemaker, fear of potential disciplinary action, e.g. Insubordination and/or Failure to Follow Orders because they were told NOT to talk about it, and more.
Not cowards per se but cowardly actions by these individuals.
Thank you, RTS, for continuing the conversation…you are helping a younger generation wff out.
In your opinion, does a strategy exist that would mitigate these fears and allow those with information to make it known in order to prevent these events from occurring in the future?
Because, I gotta tell ya, if not, isn’t all we are doing here is engaging in an elaborate exercise in mental masturbation?…and with little or no chance of achieving positive change?
These are serious questions. I’m asking not from a defeatist point of view but a realists’ one.
Woodsman
I like that one, “mental masturbation” and I must be out of lube because I am starting to really piss everybody off AGAIN, so I am going on another hiatus.
Gary,
STARTING to piss everybody off again? You? Really?
Winston Churchill said:
“You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.”
Woodsman,
You already know my strategy and it’s available to anyone who chooses to use it. I choose Jesus.
Some people engage in self deception, whereby they just make something up and “that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.” Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception (Wikipedia).
And we often hear of the difference between ‘truth telling’ and ‘truth revealing’ in the relevant literature on the subject, as if there really is such a thing. Or how about justifying telling half-truths or white lies or as Gary pointed out – lying by omission which is the same as lying.
There’s a good “Online Journal For Issues in Nursing” article titled “Strategies on Moral Courage.”
It uses the acronym CODE:
“C = Courage to be moral requires:
O = Obligations to honor (What is the right thing to do?)
D = Danger management (What do I need to handle my fear?)
E = Expression and action (What action do I need to take to maintain my integrity?)”
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.” – Edmund Burke
Here’s a CNN online article titled: “Soldier: Army ordered me not to tell the truth about Tillman” and how the Army released a “manufactured narrative” how Tillman allegedly died. It also covers the lies and intimidation concerning the capture of Army soldier Jessica Lynch in Iraq.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/04/24/tillman.hearing/
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
And here are some quotes on “Truth Telling and Breaking Silence:”
Truth never damages a cause that is just. –Mahatma Gandhi
It’s not sincerity, it is truth which frees us, because it transforms us. It tears us away from our inmost slavery. – Henri de Lubac
Never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against injustice and lying and greed. If people all over the world…would do this, it would change the earth. – William Faulkner
What is the source of our first suffering? It lies in the fact that we hesitated to speak. It was born in the moment when we accumulated silent things within us. – Gaton Bachelard
Seek the truth, not what is comfortable. Seek the real, not the easy. – Gerald May
We need more people speaking out. This country is not overrun with rebels and free thinkers. It’s overrun with sheep and conformists. – Bill Maher.
Honesty is more than not lying. It is truth telling, truth speaking, truth living, and truth loving.
– James E. Faust
Proclaim the truth and do not be silent through fear. – Catherine of Siena
Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. – Elie Wiesel
Silence becomes cowardice when occasion demands speaking out the whole truth and acting accordingly. – Mahatma Gandhi
But I suppose the most revolutionary act one can engage in is… to tell the truth. – Howard Zinn
Woodsman,
You may recall from English Socialist George Orwell’s book, 1984, that his twisted Orwellian DOUBLESPEAK was language that deliberately disguised, distorted, or reversed the meaning of words, e.g. love is hate, peace is war, black is white. Even more dangerous was the insidious DOUBLETHINK: grasping onto two opposing thoughts as being true at the same time, e.g. black is white, hot is cold, etc.
And there was also his Ministry of Truth, that’s purpose was to really manufacture LIES:
“The Ministry of Truth, Winston’s place of work, contained, it was said, three thousand rooms above ground level, and corresponding ramifications below.
“The Ministry of Truth concerned itself with Lies. Party ownership of the print media made it easy to manipulate public opinion, and the film and radio carried the process further.
“The primary job of the Ministry of Truth was to supply the citizens of Oceania with newspapers, films, textbooks, telescreen programmes, plays, novels – with every conceivable kind of information, instruction, or entertainment, from a statue to a slogan, from a lyric poem to a biological treatise, and from a child’s spelling-book to a Newspeak dictionary.
“Winston worked in the RECORDS DEPARTMENT (a single branch of the Ministry of Truth) editing and writing for The Times. He dictated into a machine called a speakwrite. Winston would receive articles or news-items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to alter, or, in Newspeak, rectify. If, for example, the Ministry of Plenty forecast a surplus, and in reality the result was grossly less, Winston’s job was to change previous versions so the old version would agree with the new one. This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs – to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance.
“When his day’s work started, Winston pulled the speakwrite towards him, blew the dust from its mouthpiece, and put on his spectacles. He dialed ‘back numbers’ on the telescreen and called for the appropriate issues of The Times, which slid out of the pneumatic tube after only a few minutes’ delay. The messages he had received referred to articles or news-items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to rectify.
“In the walls of the cubicle there were three orifices. To the right of the speakwrite, a small pneumatic tube for written messages; to the left, a larger one for newspapers; and on the side wall, within easy reach of Winston’s arm, a large oblong slit protected by a wire grating. This last was for the disposal of waste paper. Similar slits existed in thousands or tens of thousands throughout the building, not only in every room but at short intervals in every corridor. For some reason they were nicknamed memory holes. When one knew that any document was due for destruction, or even when one saw a scrap of waste paper lying about, it was an automatic action to lift the flap of the nearest memory hole and drop it in, whereupon it would be whirled away on a current of warm air to the enormous furnaces which were hidden somewhere in the recesses of the building.
“As soon as Winston had dealt with each of the messages, he clipped his speakwritten corrections to the appropriate copy of The Times and pushed them into the pneumatic tube. Then, with a movement which was as nearly as possible unconscious, he crumpled up the original message and any notes that he himself had made, and dropped them into the memory hole to be devoured by the flames.
“What happened in the unseen labyrinth to which the tubes led, he did not know in detail, but he did know in general terms. As soon as all the corrections which happened to be necessary in any particular number of The Times had been assembled and collated, that number would be reprinted, the original copy destroyed, and the corrected copy placed on the files in its stead.
“In the cubicle next to him the little woman with sandy hair toiled day in day out, simply at tracking down and deleting from the Press the names of people who had been vaporized and were therefore considered never to have existed. And this hall, with its fifty workers or thereabouts, was only one-sub-section, a single cell, as it were, in the huge complexity of the Records Department. Beyond, above, below, were other swarms of workers engaged in an unimaginable multitude of jobs.
“There were huge printing-shops and their sub editors, their typography experts, and their elaborately equipped studios for the faking of photographs. There was the tele-programmes section with its engineers, its producers and its teams of actors specially chosen for their skill in imitating voices; clerks whose job was simply to draw up lists of books and periodicals which were due for recall; vast repositories where the corrected documents were stored; and the hidden furnaces where the original copies were destroyed.
“And somewhere or other, quite anonymous, there were the directing brains who coordinated the whole effort and laid down the lines of policy which made it necessary that this fragment of the past should be preserved, that one falsified, and the other rubbed out of existence.”
Hopefully, you can see some parallels here to how the ‘Powers That Be’ suppress and then deliberately twist ‘The Truth’ through the ‘manufactured narratives’ in their talking points and press releases and the like through their (Dis)Information Officers.
RTS,
The strategy you would use to mitigate these fears and allow those with information to make it known in order to prevent these events from occurring in the future is Jesus.
Alright, by choosing Jesus, what would you DO to allow those with information about the Yarnell Hill fire to bring it to light so that it may be properly analyzed and changes made to how we fight fire (if deemed necessary) that would save future firefighters from the same fate as GM and other crews? What would you DO?
I read your 1984 quotes and I have a firm grasp on how and why disinformation is used, so I’m good there.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I don’t need to DO anything. It’s up to them to DO what they need to DO based on their own free will.
RTS,
Fair enough, YOU don’t need to do anything, they do.
Do you have any other strategies you can think of that would mitigate the fear of speaking up to benefit the future of wildland firefighting? I’ll throw out an easy example to help out: send out info to a anonymous po box, type written with no contact name on it – OR setup an interview with a reporter that would agree in writing to keep you anonymous. There’s 2 to get the thought going.
I know for a fact that firefighters are talking so the fear must be limited in some way. Like you agreed to before, it has the potential to be adverse to people’s health to tuck it all away forever.
I know that you are close to people that were there (I can tell by the way you strongly defended BR’s actions, and I agree with your assessment there.) I want to know if you have any desire to help them find a way to get it off their chest and set the record straight. I believe the families of GM deserve that at the very least. I also believe future firefighters deserve that. I know you agree. How strong is your desire, if any, to find a way to make that happen?
Thank you
Woodsman
Those Bible verses are a few thousand years old. The translations and re translations have us wondering what was really said and their meanings. The Catholic Church fathers mangled them again in the year 300 AD and then 53 fellows under King Edward VIII did another job re translating the Bible. Then today we have everything from the Revised Standard to a dozen or more modern translations that inform us that their editions are a better version. The Apocrypha from the Catholic Bible was dropped and on and on. If you want to argue Bible then go to a Southern Baptist meeting and you can have all kinds of fun. And if that is not enough get hold of a Mormon or Jehovah Witness and he will try to convince you that you will go to hell in a handbasket if you don’t espouse his version of the secrets of God. Shit it gets to be a melee of bull shit all around and most of these fellows think they want to be in the 144,000 that in the end times will meet Jesus and rule the world for a thousand years. I would say out of 6 and a half billion people your chances are pretty slim. But if you send me $50 I will put a word in with Jesus for you and maybe a couple of the Irish Goddesses I like. And I am not anxious to go to heaven where they play too much harp music. I am Irish and like that harp on Guinness but rather listen to a good fiddle or guitar. Most religion in my humble opinion is a way for a lazy man to have power and rake in plenty of bucks and maybe even make a lay or two with the girls he bull shits. Now that is not to say there are not some honest preachers who believe in their spiel and try to do well. I want to test them first by having them drag a heavy, say 83 pound cross from Prescott valley to Prescott up that hill to see how their meddle is. Get drunk with Jesus a few times and live out in a cave like old John the Baptist did according to history. Then do not charge a dime or accept anything beyond a cold sandwich and then you might have a fellow who has sampled the spiritual world a bit. Still the mind is a strong thing and people who believe something can cure them sometimes find results even from the fakers who play like they have a pipeline to God. There are after all 66 books in the King James Bible and 666 is a bad number to some. Maybe the extra book in the Catholic edition has a better number at 67. Take old Jesus advice and use only two commandments Love your neighbor and Love your God but I might add love your self too but not too much.
Merry Christmas–but be careful some say old Saint Nick was a child molester too.
This old redhead with her dust-covered Masters in Divinity and her frayed Ordination papers and her 35 years of being a UCC Minister agrees with everything you said here, Sonny.
Problem is, in some versions of the story, Jesus said, when you pray, go into a room by yourself, and close the door, and then pray, don’t stand on a street corner and publicize it. As in, your relationship with “God” is not even remotely about the advertising.
In other versions of the story, Jesus said, you are the light of the world and don’t hide your light in a basket (I love how those huge old Italian Nativities include bazillions of baskets of all shapes and styles — ah, the world before paper and plastic bags became ubiquitous).
So the conflict we are having here is built right into the story. Gosh, I wonder how that could have happened.
As Joy would say: ~giggles~
OK…I am going to get down into the weeds here with an explanation of what I think is going on with the gag order or lack thereof. I have given a version of this before, but it has been awhile.
Whenever lawsuits or criminal cases are filed in either state or federal court and the “other” side wants to either talk to, interview, depose or have call government employees subpoenaed to testify, the government attorneys (either civil attorneys called Solicitors or criminal attorneys called Assistant U.S. Attorneys) control all of these options very carefully and they rarely allow any of them to take place.
If the actions are taking place in state court, they file motions to have it moved to federal court and then they file motions to have the requests denied by the federal judge. Most of you people have no idea of how much power your federal government has because they exercise most of it behind the curtains.
So….that is what happened when all of this started with these lawsuits, the federal government through the USDA and USDI Office of Solicitor General’s clamped down and put a tight lid on all information coming out of government employees to the other side. This is always Standard Operating Procedure and does not mean the government has anything to hide; they just do it because that is what attorney’s do. But they might have something to hide, it’s hard to tell.
If you get involved in either a civil or criminal case and you hire an attorney, the very first thing that attorney will do is to tell you not to talk to anyone about your case…period. It’s just that federal government attorneys have a lot more power when they do it because they have the weight of the federal government behind them and because of Sovereign Immunity where the Crown can do no wrong…according to federal law.
This is a good thing because these attorneys are representing YOU and if the government is held liable for something…YOU pay for it. So they are really just protecting YOUR interests. That is what YOU pay them to do. Do you feel better now? Good.
So here is what I think happened and is happening now. These restrictions don’t have to be put in writing for each case, every time there is one. These regulations always exist carte blanche and permanently enshrined in the great big books most employees never read until it’s too late to save their necks from the hangman. In the case of the U.S. Forest Service these books are called the Forest Service Manual (FSM) and in USDA Departmental manuals and directives. Violate them and your ass is in a sling big time with disciplinary action up to and including termination. Any hint of any of this can really put the fear of God into any employee.
None of that has anything to do (Oh yes it does, it is all a grey area, who wants to touch the third rail to see if it is really hot) with any employee talking about what happened to their friends, significant others, other employees, the news media etc., or ME, especially after the fact which is where we are at now. But there is definitely a transition period that every employee who was caught up in the original dragnet goes through that can only be mitigated by time and space. The further out we go, the more people will talk, but it will obviously take awhile.
I might have gotten some of that wrong and if I did, please write in and correct me, but that is the gist of it. So…neither the Blue Ridge Hotshots or RTS are lying per se, they just aren’t telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but my door is always open.
Like I have said before, when I first became an Eagle Scout I thought the world was black and white and there were good guys and bad guys. It wasn’t until I went up a few rungs in the ladder that I found out the world and the people in it only come in shades of grey. And the further I went up the ladder, the grayer the world became. Whoa…that is pretty deep for an ex hotshot and ground pounder!
Discuss amongst yourselves!
Thank you, Gary…
…but the VERY confusing element in all of this is the same phrase you used above.
“Sovereign Immunity”
On a certain level… why should the FEDS even give one single fuck which of their employees is saying anything to anyone.
Even if that ‘testimony’ uncovers wrongdoing… they can still just cast their long SI blanket over them and protect them from prosecution.
Seems like an awful lot of trouble for them to go through trying to GAG people when there isn’t much anyone ‘up there’ can be held accountable for, anyway.
Very informative, maybe we can get one person we know who has a letter ordering him to keep his mouth shut to allow us a copy with his name blacked out. This guy is one I would believe and at some point wants to talk once he sees he can do it without jeopardizing his job. That may be some time.
Happy Holidays and I hope Santa treats you well –good tidings.
Thank you Sonny, and yes, I would very much like to see that letter or any other documentation anyone has on this topic.
Like a lot of things, the devil is always in the details. So…I don’t mean any disrespect, but the first question I would have is whether that letter is from a federal agency and to a federal employee.
But that is just for openers. I have never seen a letter or any other documentation pertaining to what we are talking about. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, it just means I haven’t seen it. But I would really like to if it exists.
All of those people kind of look the same if you know what I mean. Green shirts, brown shirts, grey shirts, off green shirts, off brown shirts and shades of grey shirts, who can tell them apart?
Once we determine who it is from and who it is to, I would really be interested in the details of that documentation and exactly what it says and what authority it is based on.
I really will virtually prostrate myself on the cyber ground just for anyone to do with me what they will just to get a shot at dissecting one of those letters and analyzing exactly what it contains.
This would be an officer of the State, so I would think his letter comes from a state boss. No reason this man should lie considering his credentials. Joy is better at getting information like this but then as you know we would not jeopardize his job–he has to make those decisions What he has said to us is off the record. This is however an honorable and honest person and he too is disgusted with the way this investigation went and the narrative fed to the public. Eventually these things will come out and once retired and out of the system we certainly will get copies of his letter.
For all who want an explanation of why we have Attorneys and redactions along with gag orders.
Go to Wildfire Today and listen to Tom Harbor explain the law that was passed by Congress that
created the Criminal investigations that we have today on FF Supervisors.
2002 things have started to change after the 30 Mile Fire. Federal Only Employees.
This also includes the new way of doing investigations and assessing no fault or failure to follow the 10 and 18. to help elude law suits thru the investigation frame work.
Arizona State was totally different under this Federal Jurisdiction Law.
What a muddy mess we have today————-
I want to do everything I can to clear up any misconceptions or misunderstandings regarding my involvement in this thread. You can say anything you want to about me or my motivations for participating here, some of it might even be true, hell…all of it may be true. I DON’T CARE!
When the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died, they did not simply take in a deep breath of super heated gasses that collapsed their lungs, which in turn caused them to go to the great hall of my people to drink with Odin in Valhalla.
No. When the Granite Mountain Hotshots died, they experienced a “gross protrusion of their frenums.” Your frenum anchors your tongue to the back of your mouth.
This means that they were coughing up their own burning lungs so hard that their tongues stuck so far out their mouths they broke their frenum attachment and their tongues remained protruded. They didn’t stop coughing up their own lung tissue until they were dead.
Yes…that was very hard for me to write and for you to read. Now just imagine how hard it was for them to experience.
We all owe it to these 19 wildland firefighters to find out all of the truth regarding all of the circumstances surrounding their deaths and the aftermath even as we mourn the loss of their lives.
And if I make somebody angry in the process…so be it.
Merry Christmas
Merry Christmas back to you, Gary.
I don’t want to artificially lesson the brutality of what you are saying here.
But something I have wondered all along.
When my brother died, falling 350 feet off of a cliff in the Jemez and landing on his head, I was told by a physician that he most likely went into shock before he hit the rock on which he died. That the body goes into shock when something extreme like that happens. Not completely unconscious, but very close to it.
I have always wondered if maybe something like that happened with these young men. Maybe what that physician told me was just to help me not totally freak out about what my brother experienced. I don’t know.
No offense Marti…BUT!
You have always been one of the top dreamers on this thread, if not the very top dreamer.
It’s too bad that physician didn’t have a bridge that connects Brooklyn to the rest of New York City to sell you. It sounds like you would have bought it, even if you had to make payments.
Oh…and one more thing. THAT Merry Christmas was intended to be sarcastic to anyone who doesn’t like what I posted as in, Merry Christmas………
But to you and everyone else, I want to wish you a sincere Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year in which all of the laggards will finally realize that there will never be a Perry Mason moment in which they will have the opportunity to reveal all that they know and they will finally come forward with the secrets they have been keeping so we can finalize this chapter of wildland firefighting history and move on.
OK…not to pick on Marti on Christmas Eve day, but just one more thing.
As all of you know by now, I do like to tell a colorful story whenever I get the chance on this thread to make a point because if I tell anymore to my dear wife and we are in a car going down the freeway…she will jump out. She already did it once and it wasn’t a pretty site.
I was involved in a head on collision on the job in 1990. I was the passenger in a 1989 Ford Cougar (a very light car) and we were hit head on by a 1970’s huge and very heavy some kind of four door dinosaur sedan full of drunk people on a lonely highway in New Mexico on the Navajo Reservation.
We were going more than 60 miles an hour and I don’t know how fast they were going, but I do know that we bounced back more than five feet from the point of impact.
The driver instinctively swerved at the last second so the impact was on my side of the car. My head and neck snapped off the headrest post. It felt like someone had broken all of my ribs and stuck them into my lungs. There weren’t any air bags back then.
The semi truck in front of us swerved out of the way of the oncoming car in our lane at the last second, leaving the impact for us without very much warning. I probably had about as long to assess the situation as your brother had falling down that cliff or my father had falling down that mine shaft if he wasn’t already dead.
Guess what? I didn’t go into shock or near unconsciousness from fright but I did have time to say to myself, “We are going to hit that oncoming car head on.” And then we did.
I walked away from that accident.What I always believed as a hotshot is true. I am Unbreakable.
And you know me, one way I like to overshare is to post photos on my electronic bulletin board when they help make my point and sometimes even when they don’t. So here are two photos of the car I was in after the accident..
The first photo was taken while I was still in the car and they couldn’t get the door open because it was jammed shut and the second one was taken the day after the accident and the car had been towed to the BLM Farmington Field Office.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
There was quite an exchange below regarding the “Agency imposed Gag Orders” or lack thereof and so I would very much like to clear up this misunderstanding.
And if I am wrong, I will virtually prostrate myself upon the cyber ground for any and all to do with me what they will.
But if I am right, I wish everybody would please shut the fuck up about this non-existent gag order because it is starting to really piss me off.
If you have a copy of the Gag Order, you can scan it and email it to me at:
[email protected]
If you don’t have access to a scanner you can mail it to me at:
Gary Olson
700 Sleater Kinney RD SE,
STE B – 243
Lacy, WA, 98503
However I receive it, I will then post it on my virtual bulletin board for everyone to read.
Or you can probably mail it to John Dougherty at IM and he will put it on line in his drop box.
Thank you for your attention in this matter, I look forward to either receiving said Gag Order or having you please shut the fuck up talking about something that doesn’t exist.
NOW we’re gettin’ somewhere…
There you go, folks, free shots at Gary. Who wouldn’t like that? Deal of the century. A Christmas miracle!!
Party A asserts claim.
Party B disputes claim.
Burden of proof is on Party A to substantiate said claim.
Woodsman
Well while I will not throw rocks at Gary I will try to explain.
Due to the Law suits from past fires the Feds have Attorneys that are assigned to advise ALL Federal Employees.
All of those who were on the Yarnell Hill Fire were contacted soon after they made their Written Statements.
TWO Things happened.
First the Lawyers made sure that all statements were reviewed and any thing that was of possible litigation or involvement in the legal statements were Redacted.
Your attorney has that authority since there was no statement of rights given and signed off by the Federal Employees. There for can not be used in the investigation with out a new statement with the Government Lawyer in attendance.. As witnesses they can be required to be questioned in a court of law.
Thus the first Phase.
Second The Employee is called into the Forest Supervisors Office with His Supervisor. The Lawyer is present to meet each Employee. Explain the process
and Tell the Employee his rights and request that he not talk about the Information he has on the Yarnell Hill Fire. He and his Supervisors along with the Attorney Sign a Agreement—–GAG Order as it is called. It can be held internally as a Personnel document. It can be used internally to cost you your Job, Promotions and the paid for use of the Federal Lawyers should you be called as a witness.
Remember all the Federal Employees on the Fire????
The Supervisors that made decisions are being protected from any and all Statements by other Employees that heard this or that that might cause litigation to
the Supervisors. Thus all Government Employees on the Fire were put under the Same Umbrella and protection buy the Government.
A GAG ORDER—You are ordered not to discuss the Yarnell Hill Fire with ANY ONE
AS A Government employee you will be held accountable for your agreement.
There was surly a lot more talk behind those closed doors I gave you the Basics.
Yes Gary there is such a thing and the Government will cut the cord if any one steps out of bounds.
It is no different than a Lawyer or a Judge telling you, you can not discuss any of the information you have out side a court of law and a legal summons to Appear
With your Lawyer for deposition or questioning in a trial.
ALL OF YOU That are my Friends or here adding your two cents Please have
A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS
Thank you, Bob,for this explanation, and a very merry Christmas to you, too!
I do vaguely remember us having, somewhere back in the past, conversations about this very thing, I think.
Now I’m heading out to see if I can find some useable avocados. So much for procrastination.
Namaste!
That my old friend…was a lot of bullshit. I know you have heard the saying, “you bullshit a bullshitter.”
Whoops,
“you CAN’T bullshit a bullshitter”
My dear wife is on her way to work and our dogs don’t know it’s Christmas Eve…so I can go all night? You up?
I still don’t have my hard drives, so I can’t access all of my related documents.
The narrative of the “gag order” began with the fact that the Forest Service blocked BRHS crew members (and other USFS people and, possibly some BLM people) from being interviewed by ADOSH.
As was described in John Dougherty’s article in the Phoenix New Times:
“GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS WERE ASKED IF THEY COULD PROTECT YARNELL”
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/granite-mountain-hotshots-were-asked-if-they-could-protect-yarnell-6644145
“But ADOSH’s attempt to interview Frisby directly was blocked repeatedly by the U.S. Forest Service. The Blue Ridge Hotshots are assigned to the Coconino National Forest and based in the small Mogollon Rim community of Happy Jack.
“It should be noted that the United States Department of Agriculture-Forest Service denied ADOSH’s requests to interview” the Blue Ridge Hotshots, the report mentions.”
That narrative is in a bunch of other places, but this one is one of them.
And even David Turbyfill speaks of a “gag order”:
“I know Breadan and others heard Radio traffic from GMHS, but none has come forward to any official investigator, Blue Ridge is on Gag orders”
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/posts/1585154888389628:0
Talk, talk, talk, talk of gag orders, but who has seen one?
Or more to the point, who can send me one?
Exactly.
I’m just saying where the narrative began and about what.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on December 23, 2015 at 4:18 pm
From WAAAAY down below…
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> I think the only BRHS monitoring the GMHS Crew Net while driving around
>> to was True Brown, driving the GMHS Chase (Supt?) truck with McDonough.
Fair enough. That is clear now. That is simply what YOU ‘think’.
For a moment there, in this thread, it simply seemed like you were trying to do another one of your “I know something but I can’t tell you how I know it” dances.
BTW: The current evidence is that Brendan McDonough was driving the GM Superintendent Truck, Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown was driving the GM ‘Chase’ truck ( and actually USING the onboard CREW RADIO to talk to both Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed WHILE he was driving it )… and the two GM Crew Carriers were being driven by those two other as-yet-unnamed Blue Ridge Hotshot crew members that Trueheart Brown says he just pulled ‘from the end of the line’ as he headed west on the Cutover trail out to where the GM vehicles were.
Any arguments, corrections, ( or inside knowledge ) to add there?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> So, I’m NOT sure who you refer to when you say “THEY.”
I am ( and always have been ) referring to the OTHER two Blue Ridge crew members who were driving the GM Crew Carriers.
I ( me, personally ) do NOT ‘think’ they just reached down and switched ANYTHING off.
I think from the moment they turned the key… the onboard radio came on… and it had the GM Crew-Net set as its PRIORITY channel… so they were hearing everything that might have been going down over that channel as long as they were in or near the Carriers with the power on.
I’m also with Woodsman on this one.
You simply don’t “fuck with truck” when it’s NOT yours.
You do NOT get into some other Hotshot’s Crew Carrier and start ‘touching’ ANYTHING.
Not even radio switches.
You just drive it… and listen to the radio… and you then HEAR things.
Being a City of Prescott/Prescott fire department crew, I’d venture to say a whole lot of folks in the fire department may have been able to copy GM’s radio traffic on their crewnet if they wanted to. Line of sight, not repeated, right?
Woodsman
I would say so to if they were not busy on their assigned Freq. that day.
Reply to Woodsman post on December 24, 2015 at 1:31 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Being a City of Prescott/Prescott fire department crew, I’d venture
>> to say a whole lot of folks in the fire department may have been
>> able to copy GM’s radio traffic on their crewnet if they wanted
>> to. Line of sight, not repeated, right?
There is still no evidence that EITHER of the ‘official’ investigations into the tragedy ( SAIT or ADOSH ) even bothered to TRY and find out who did or did NOT have the Granite Mountain Intra-Crew frequency programmed into their radios.
Jason Clawson was right there that afternoon.
He was GM’s actual SUPERVISOR for the two fires they worked the two days before the tragedy.
The “West Spruce” fire on Friday, June 28 and
The “Mount Josh” fire on Saturday, June 29 ( the one where it’s been confirmed Granite Mountain was cheating the system and submitted a timesheet that says they were working overtime until 10:30 PM Sat evening… when they had actually all been ‘dismissed’ and sent home arond 7:00 PM ).
So what are the odds that Jason Clawson had the GM Intra-Net on his radio?
Pretty high, I’d say.
And that’s just one person.
There were MANY people there that day that could have easily known what the GM Intra-Crew frequency was and had it programmed into their radios.
WTKTT:
My understanding of HS’ crewnet channels is that they are use for intracrew communication. I’ve never had it as a middle line supervisor nor did I want it. I would communicate with their leadership when necessary. A shot crew is tool and a very good one…point shot crew in the direction of work and pull the trigger. Typically a shot crew would have it just on the crew not anybody else. It’s used to cut down on radio chatter over the division tac/command. Ie: the whole div doesn’t need to know that Johnny is going to bump some torch fuel or something like that. I’m not sure if different HS crews on a fire ‘share’ these or not. My thought above that being a city crew, maybe all kinds of folks, not traditionally involved with using these ‘private freq’s’, may have pulled them up. It sounds like Willis’ was on it and he was on the opposite side of the fire. Of course he was their ‘wildland chief.’
I expect and hope to be corrected on any errors by the former shots here.
Woodsman
Many of the new Radios can now be programed to the Different HS Nets
all you need is the FREQ. Some times Locals and adjacent resources will have them already programed. Possibly BR? or GM having BR.
Also GM would have their Local city freq. We were stuck with what we had till the new programmable’s came along.
It’s pretty safe to say that even after having worked with GM before on other fires… and even after Frisby and Brown had that face-to-face with Marsh and Steed from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM on the day of the tragedy…
…Frisby did NOT have GM’s Crew Frequency punched into HIS hand-held that day.
When Frisby couldn’t get hold of Marsh or Steed right away at that moment he was ‘rescuing’ Brendan McDonough near the old-grader… it is documented that Brendan had to hand Frisby his own physical BK radio in order for Frisby to try to raise Marsh or Steed on the GM Intra-Crew.
So yea… ( as you say above )… a Hotshot crew USUALLY keeps their own assigned intra-crew frequency to themselves… but it is certainly POSSIBLE for others to have it.
All they have to do is have it.
And this GM Crew was ‘very unusual’ in many ways.
Granite Mountain was owned/operated by the City of Prescott and the City of Prescott Fire Department. That’s unusual.
So it’s POSSIBLE that GM’s intra-crew was pretty much common knowledge for anyone who even worked for Prescott Fire Department.
We KNOW Willis had it. It’s not conceivable that he didn’t, or that he wouldn’t have been ‘scanning’ it that day ( whether he had the time to listen to that traffic or not ).
There were many other Prescott Fire Department personnel working that same fire that day.
My point above is that regardless of what it NORMAL… or who USUALLY only has access to some Hotshot intra-crew frequency… neither set of investigators ( SAIT or ADOSH ) seemed to realize the importance of finding out WHO really had access to that frequency ( and was still alive ) and who did NOT.
They should have.
It became immediately obvious following the tragedy that ANYONE who even MIGHT have been hearing ANY conversation over that GM Intra-Crew *might* have heard some very important things regarding figuring out how 19 supposedly trained professional Wildland Firefighters just walked straight into a wall of flames and burned to death.
Just a thought.
Tony Sciacca cloned his radio directly off of Darrell Willis’.
So might that not mean he had GM’s Crewnet on it?
And he wasn’t busily doing something else.
I think he was busily trying to figure out WTF was going on.
WTKTT,
Good points here. And it’s very likely there were A LOT of WFF listening to, monitoring the GMHS Crew Net frequency that day, especially any former GMHS employees working for other agencies and/ or in other PFD positions.
And Marti is right.
Any NUMBER of people ended up getting their radios ‘cloned’ from Darrell Willis’ because of how screwed up the command post was for this fiasco known as the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Reply to Robert the Second post on December 23, 2015 at 7:40 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The information came from OTHER anonymous sources because those men
>> are under Agency imposed gag orders and they are steadfastly abiding by
>> that order. And I will honor that.
Well, I for one appreciate every piece of information you HAVE been able ( and willing ) to share.
But as for this ‘bottom line’ you keep quoting about why you can’t seem to share ALL that you know… it’s still ‘fair game’ to ask YOU questions.
Did these SOURCES of you tell you HOW this ‘gag order’ was imposed?
Was it IN WRITING?
Was it just VERBAL ( As in Frisby told them all at a gathering to keep their mouths shut? )
Was it an email? ( From USFS? From Frisby? )
Was it a TEXT message?
It’s a VALID question and just wondering if YOU know the answer.
If you do… I don’t see how you could ‘stand on your shield’ and say you won’t answer THAT one, either.
This ‘gag order’ had to take some FORM of DELIVERY… or it’s just a figment of their imaginations.
Is there ANYTHING you can tell us about where this thing you are so SURE they are ‘steadfastly honoring’ even CAME from… and WHEN… and HOW?
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on December 23, 2015 at 7:58 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>>
>> I totally agree with you and also believe the conclusion that the BRHS saved
>> EVERYONE THEY COULD POSSIBLY SAVE at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Including themselves.
For the sake of just a few minutes… their own ‘escape route’ back to their vehicles would have been ‘cut off’ and they, themselves, would probably have had to deploy out there on the ‘Cutover Trail’ where they had been working.
They MAY have been able to make it to the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area at the west end of the cutover trail, which was already established as their ‘alternate escape route’, but was by no means a valid ‘Safety Zone’.
ADOSH never issued any citation for THIS potential near-miss entrapment of Blue Ridge, even though they came “running as FAST as they could ” out from the Cutover Trail and back to their buggies.
From Peeples Valley Firefighter Bob Brandon’s own account of what was happening out there at that Youth Camp, told ‘in his own words’, by his own hand… on the Yarnell Recovery Group website…
http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/os_bob_brandon.html
—————————————————————–
We looked up behind Boulder Mountain and we noticed that the fire was standing straight up, right behind Boulder Mountain about 100 feet high. And we’re thinking, That’s not right. Because the fire was way north of us, clear up to Peeples Valley.
As the sky started to darken, we were getting really nervous about what was going on. Well the Hot Shots from Blue Ridge came running out of the woods, and I mean just as fast as they could go, and this was heavy forest. They just came running out of the woods, jumped in their trucks and left. And I’m thinking, Wait a minute. They’re professionals. We do this on a volunteer basis, so what aren’t we seeing?
—————————————————————
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> They were INSTRUMENTAL in LEADERSHIP ROLES AND MUCH, MUCH MORE
>> saving lives in Yarnell and in The Shrine area as well.
Notice above that Bob Brandon doesn’t recall anyone from Blue Ridge being the least bit concerned with their welfare of the others working in the Youth Camp area.
He says…
“They just came running out of the woods, jumped in their trucks and left.”
There IS some evidence ( in Frisby’s own handwritten Unit Log ) that Frisby and Brown drove around the area in the Polaris Ranger yelling at people to ‘get the hell out’… but this is not ‘Blue Ridge’ as a whole. We are only talking about two guys in a Polaris Ranger making any effort along those lines.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And we also need to remember Sun City West (Peoria) FD firefighter Darby Starr
>> for his actions that day recognizing the imminent downdrafts from outflow winds.
Yes… since all THREE of the ‘lookouts’ that had been designated for the work in Harper Canyon ( including SPGS1 Gary Cordes ) had failed miserably in those ‘lookout’ tasks.
But here is even Blue Ridge Captain Brown’s professional opinion of the competency level of his fellow ‘brothers’ working out there in Harper Canyon.
As captured in Hulburd video M2U00264… here is what Brown said to PNF employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell as he and Frisby drove up to the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot that afternoon, just 3 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first attempt at a MAYDAY radio call would be showing up on the A2G channel…
———————————————————–
+3:09 ( 1636.32 / 4:36.32 )
(KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): How ya doin’, guy?
+3:12 ( 1636.35 / 4:36.35 )
(BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Fuckin’ makin’ sure IDIOTS aren’t burnin’ themselves up. God DAMN!
———————————————————–
Bottom line: After the complete an utter failure of each of the 3 lookouts… It was an absolute fuster cluck out there at the end of Shrine road…. and ALL of those firefighters out there ( Blue Ridge included ) were lucky they didn’t become just more bodies that would have to have been hauled out of Yarnell that weekend.
So at the same time people like Starr and Frisby and getting ‘complimented’ for at least having the smarts to stay alive… where is the accompanying criticism of the process that put them into that “damn lucky to be alive” category in the FIRST place?
FYI – There is no gag order.
there is on the ones we meet soon to interview–who are you speaking about Gary?
What do you hope to get from interviewing someone under a gag order? Wouldn’t all the answers be like : “…………………………………………….” , “……………………………..” etc.?
I’m starting believe what Gary says: there is no gag order.
unless the gag orders have an expiration date?
yes. expiration date Woodsman.
Ask them to show you the gag order.
they are going to share it all including the court stuff, Gary.
Joy,
We are not talking about Amanda Marsh misusing the court system by filing a bogus protection order against you to punish you for being you and exercising your God given rights anywhere except where that bitch (non gender specific) disingenuous U.S. Constitution Trampler Karen Fann holds sway, like in the entire state of Arizona. We are talking about something much bigger here.
We are talking about the mythological Gag Order that never existed and was made up out of whole cloth (as WTKTT has said) by federal government employees who don’t want to talk about what they experienced or know about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire to the GMIHC and they lacked the courage to say, “I don’t want to talk to you” and instead felt the need to say, “I don’t want to talk to you because of an agency imposed Gag Order.”
And like a dumb shit…I bought it until I put two and two together through my superb investigative skills. OK, OK, I can’t lie to you, you are among my closest and best friends…somebody finally told me the truth and I went, Oh! No Shit? Really? I feel like a gullible dumb ass. .
Gary,
That’s what the Agency folks call it. I’m sure there is a more bureaucratic, official-sounding name for it. The principle is the same and it has the same effect. They are honoring it and keeping their mouths shut.
Well, they could just call it a “I don’t want to tell you what I know” instead of LYING about a fictitious “Gag Order”, but then that would require them to tell the truth by saying something like, “I don’t want to tell you what I know” instead of “I can’t tell you what I know.”
In the first version, the person can blame an imaginary person or group for their failure, in the second scenario, the person accepts responsibility for their own actions or lack thereof.
The law treats an OMISSION in the same way it treats a LIE.
No one has to talk to me or anyone else to incriminate themselves because our wise Founding Fathers said so, but I always prefer it when someone tell me the truth by saying “I don’t want to talk to you” rather than “I can’t talk to you.”
I keep hearing and reading there are a lot of people out there who know the truth about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire to the GMIHC and that they were all waiting for the court case for the time when they would be under oath and then they would tell everyone what they know.
There is only one little problem with that…I TOLD EVERYONE MORE THAN TWO YEARS AGO THERE WOULD NEVER BE A COURT CASE BECAUSE THIS CASE WOULD BE SETTLED OUT OF COURT!
And all of the dreamers were either unwilling or unable to believe me. So now, here we are. There never was going to be a court case, there is never going to be court case.
What comes next? Do any of you people who have been waiting for something to come that is never going to come have a Plan B for when you are going to do the right thing?
“Do any of you people who have been waiting for something to come that is never going to come have a Plan B for when you are going to do the right thing?”
This is what I was talking about below when I was sincerely asking for RTS to help with his leadership, love of truth, honor, love of wildland fire, and knowing folks who were there (BRHS)…by convincing them and others to do the right thing.
Woodsman
That sounds like a good Plan B to me.
What about it RTS? Like we both admitted downstream, I was always a “We like it, we love it, we want more of it!” kind of hotshot. While you on the other hand, had some real bona fides as a rebel and one who speaks truth to power.
Although I am still having a little trouble using that in a sentence without grimacing, it sounds so…corny, Truth to Power!
RTS said, Gary,
“That’s what the Agency folks call it. I’m sure there is a more bureaucratic, official-sounding name for it. The principle is the same and it has the same effect. They are honoring it and keeping their mouths shut.”
That is a LIE. Either they are lying to you, or you are lying to me. The Agency(ies) did not issue any order to any employees not to talk about what they know about what happened on the Yarenell Hill Fire to the GMIHC.
Maybe one or more supervisors or managers said to one or more employees at a tail gate meeting at the back of somebody’s pickup truck something like, “You know…if it was me, I would keep my fucking mouth shut, those fucking assholes who pay our salaries and for this truck we are standing behind don’t need or deserve to hear the truth…so fuck them!”
And just for the record, I listened to the tape with that really tough talking bad person (remember I am no longer channeling my back of the bus self, that was someone else talking in the previous paragraph) by the name of Mike Dudley and I wasn’t impressed.
Give me two hours and a Garrity Waiver form for that Son-of-a-bitch (that one is on me) to sign and I will have the truth and him crying like a baby when I show him what his life will look like when the U.S. Attorney and I get done with him if he doesn’t. Dirty rotten lying SOB.
In other words, you can call an imaginary concept that you make up anything you want to call it…because it is imaginary and made up by you.
We all hear about Gag Orders issued by judges in court cases on TV, so I guess Gag Order sounds good.
But even if you put lipstick on a pig and buy it dinner…it is sill a pig. So…
Agree, Gary.
It could even be a simple case whereby some FFs ‘out there’ just think because they HEARD something about a ‘gag order’ or ‘redacted Unit Logs’… that they then ALSO think that applies to THEM ( for reasons they make up in their own head ).
Example: Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
What makes THEM seem to think THEY are under any kind of ‘gag order’?
Just because they heard a RUMOR that Blue Ridge people *might* be?
Some people are most likely saying they are GAGGED when the only thing that’s really sticking in their mouths is their own fist.
( Like the Saturday Night Live Dan Ackroyd ‘evil toy salesman’ sketch where the only thing he could do to prove a competitor’s toy was ‘dangerous’ was to reach out and grab it an stuff into his OWN MOUTH ).
If there are ‘secret memos’… let’s SEE them ( we paid for the paper ).
If there are ‘secret emails’… let’s SEE them ( we pay for the IP connections )
If there are ‘secret verbal commands’… let’s HEAR about them ( We pay the salaries of the mouths they belong to ).
If there are NONE of those things… then let’s know THAT, too.
Oh Man…I used to love those sketches..Consumer Probe interviewing Mr. Irwin Mainway of Mainway Toys.
WTKTT said “Some people are most likely saying they are GAGGED when the only thing that’s really sticking in their mouths is their own fist.”
And I say, “I pick that one.”
Re: The man who lost his home in the fire stated he both received a letter and verbal command to keep his mouth shut. This fellow is not one to lie but whether he will give a copy with name blacked out I do not know. I do know some people have plenty to say once they get unhooked from the system.
Sonny, can you say who he got the letter from?
I want to bring something back to the top due to running out of space…
I asked RTS:
“RTS,
I would like to ask you one question at this time. If you were put into the same position as the BR shots, gagged by your agency and told to withhold critical information about the most horrific loss of life of a shot crew in the history of shot crews and thus diminish the possibility of gaining the most insight we can to prevent it from happening again, what would YOU do and why?
Thanks!”
RTS replied:
“Woodsman,
I would tell the truth and here’s a few reasons why:
“In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” George Orwell
“Truth is dangerous. It topples palaces and kills kings. It stirs gentle men to rage and bids them take up arms. It wakes old grievances and opens forgotten wounds. It is the mother of the sleepless night and the hag-ridden day. And yet there is one thing that is more dangerous than Truth. Those who would silence Truth’s voice are more destructive by far.
“It is most perilous to be a speaker of Truth. Sometimes one must chose to be silent, or be silenced. But if the truth cannot be spoken, it must at least be known. Even if you dare not speak the truth to others, never lie to yourself.” Frances Harninge
“Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.” Sir Walter Scott
“The search for truth implies a duty. One must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true.” Albert Einstein
“Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth.” Mahatma Ghandi
“Anyone who doesn’t take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either.” Albert Einstein
“The truth will ultimately prevail where there are pains to bring it to light.” George Washington
“By doubting we are led to questioning, by questioning we arrive at the truth.” Peter Abelard
“Some think the truth can be hidden with a little cover-up and decoration. But as time goes by, what is true is revealed and what is fake fades away.” Ismail Haniyeh
“The truth is rarely pure and never simple.” Oscar Wilde
“Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief, or ignorance.” W. Clement Stone
“Silence is the residue of fear.” Clint Smith
“No denial of the truth will ever invalidate it.” Nikki Rosen
“There are two ways to be fooled: One is to believe what isn’t so; the other is to refuse to believe what is so.” Soren Kierkegaard”
I say:
You really gave it the ol’ ‘high volume’ approach, didn’t you? There is one important issue that you left out that I hoped you would address……………..the “Agency imposed gag order” that you mentioned repeatedly and with emphasis. How would you handle this based on your belief of truth? If you are telling me that the truth is most important and you would strive for truth and honesty above all else, I applaud you, sir!!!!THAT’S Leadership!
You also added:
“Woodsman,
Telling the truth is often uncomfortable and almost always controversial. I will NOT succumb to political correctness or hide behind it as a pretext or ruse in order to suppress the truth.”
Again, I commend you.
I would like a favor from you……no on second thought how about a service to all the present and future wildland firefighters across America and those that love them. Share with others your leadership and love of truth! It may be our best chance at both honoring GMHS and prevention of events such as these from happening in the future. You have the power, sir.
Thank you, RTS, thank you!
Woodsman
RTS,
My experience with gambling was limited to dorm room or hotshot barracks poker nights, but it sounds to me like the Woodsman called.
Are you going to show us your cards? All of us have put our money in the pot so we have already paid to see your cards…right?
Gary,
The closest thing to gambling for me is buying stocks from time-to-time and I do NOT play cards.
So, my cards will remain hidden because I am NOT going to show them.
The information came from OTHER anonymous sources because those men are under Agency imposed gag orders and they are steadfastly abiding by that order. And I will honor that.
“The information came from OTHER anonymous sources because those men are under Agency imposed gag orders and they are steadfastly abiding by that order. And I will honor that.”
Is this the truth, RTS? The truth you stand for so strongly?
If those men, that are under “Agency imposed gag orders” have in fact abided by this “Agency imposed gag order,” there WOULD NOT BE ANYTHING THERE FOR YOU TO “HONOR,” now would there, Mr. RTS.
You said it yourself in one of your quotes:
“Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.” Sir Walter Scott”
What is it you are exactly having to “honor?”
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You have come to your conclusion. Kudos to you. As the saying goes: “Stick a fork in me, I’m done.”
Gary — about the Gag orders given to civilians as well as the BR, etc.–What justifications do officials have for doing them?
Thanks Woodsman for defining the TRUTH. The laws are universal and here we see how hard it is for those involved in this disaster to come forward with the truth. I see the value of what Dr. Ted Putnam said when he told me he could not sign off on the Storm King fire near Glenwood, Colorado, 1996 that killed 14 wild land firefighters. He told me he knew that it would jeopardize his career going against the pressure and grain of the group of investigators he was working with so he had the choice of putting his name to something he recognized as an incomplete and improper investigation or do the right thing and refuse to sign off until things were in proper perspective and reflected evidence that would affect lives of future fire fighters and their right to safety.. The decision did cost him and he has been black balled in many instances since for that decision, yet I saw that he continues to take that stand so many on this site have. Truth will save future lives and the deception we have seen here will only foster more deaths. The people involved in these deceptions and deliberate omission of a proper investigation certainly know this but their cowardice for holding back is no reward or honor to the profession. People whom gagged these people deserve to be stripped of their so called honorable positions. Yet we live in a world where the dollar, power and a deceptively clean image is more important than the lives of honorable men on the front line of danger to serve the people, resources, and property. They deserve the Truth for their safety and the best available equipment and better pay for their efforts. All aspects and angle of this tragedy need to be addressed and we see the people here as those interested to see that this is properly completed.
Merry Christmas. Happy Holidays and may whatever befits your belief bless you and yours with good tidings. I love the Irish Goddesses, they say a lot and bear the truth.
Thanks Sonny but RTS deserves the credit. He got me to think and I appreciate that.
Wishing you a merry Christmas and good health!!
Woodsman
I like Woodsman participation here-
Merry Christmas
**
** AMANDA MARSH TELLS INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA SHE JUST ‘THREW ERIC’S PHONE AWAY’
I’m not sure everyone over in this ongoing discussion ‘caught this’ in the last few days, but just 48 hours after this Ms. Holly Neill person inserted herself into the conversation about Eric Marsh’s cellphone now being KNOWN to have been found sitting his shirt pocket, Amanda Marsh herself called InvestigativeMEDIA to ‘talk about it’, AFTER having already declined to be interviewed prior to the story being published.
And InvestigativeMEDIA published a separate ‘follow up’ story detailing this ‘interview’ with Amanda Marsh about Eric’s cellphone and cellphone records ( see below ).
** THE TIMELINE…
** Wednesday, December 16, 2015 – Morning
On the morning of December 16, 2015, John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA published his article about the fact that the newly released Granite Mountain autopsy reports proved ( without any doubt ) that Eric Marsh’s cellphone had been found in his shirt pocket at the start of his autopsy examination at the Maricopa County Medical Examiner’s office.
Eric Marsh’s cellphone never entered the possession of the Yavapai County Sheriff’s office investigators who were THERE at the autopsies to ‘collect evidence’, and any/all ‘electronic devices’ being found were known to be of the highest priority.
The article also details OTHER ‘electronic devices’ that were being found at the start of the autopsies that ALSO never ‘entered the YCSO’s chain of evidence’, such as Christopher MacKenzie’s Canon Digital Camera, also found in HIS shirt pocket.
Amanda Marsh refused a request to be interviewed prior to this article being published.
InvestigativeMEDIA
Key evidence in Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy never provided to official investigators
Published: December 16, 2015 – by John Dougherty – 25 comments
http://www.investigativemedia.com/key-evidence-in-yarnell-hill-fire-tragedy-never-provided-to-official-investigators/#comment-320005
** Thursday, December 17, 2015 – 7:50 PM
On the night of Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 7:50 pm, someone named Holly Neill left a comment on that new article directed to “John Dougherty et al” in which SHE claimed that SHE had been given Eric Marsh’s cellphone records by Amanda Marsh, even though those cellphone records had been denied to ‘other people and organizations’. Ms. Neill said that Amanda Marsh had been refusing to supply them to ‘others’ who had requested them because she didn’t consider them to be (quote) “professional or trustworthy persons”.
Ms. Neill stated that SHE supposedly knew for a fact that there were no calls to or from Eric Marsh’s cellphone following a 1:11 PM call between Eric Marsh and his direct upline OPS1 Field Supervisor Todd Abel. Todd Abel himself testified he remembered receiving that call from Eric and it was about the ‘arguments’ he had just had with DIVSZ Rance Marquez.
** Friday, December 18, 2015 at 8:47 am
On Friday morning, December 18, 2015, at 8:47 am. John Dougherty replied to Ms. Neill and made it clear that InvestigativeMEDIA had, in fact, been at least one of the ‘organizations’ that had requested Eric Marsh’s cellphone records but that request had been DENIED.
John Dougherty said ( to Ms. Neill )…
———————————————————————-
Holly, Please provide a complete copy of Eric Marsh’s cell phone records.
I requested the records from the City of Prescott through the Arizona Public Records Law in 2013 and was turned down, just like ADOSH.
As you must know, the undisputed fact that the cell phone arrived with Mr. Marsh’s body at the Office of the Maricopa County Medical Examiner and did not move into evidence is a story no matter what’s on the cell phone records.
The fact the SAIT never looked at the cell phone records is a story.
As far as I am concerned, there is no evidence whatsoever about Marsh’s cell phone records until they are publicly provided.
————————————————————————————-
** Saturday, December 19, 2015
Amanda Marsh had refused to be interviewed prior to the publication of InvestigativeMEDIA’s December 16 article.
But on Saturday night, 48 hours after this attempt by Ms. Neill to talk ( in public ) about the cellphone records she was now saying SHE had seen, Amanda Marsh contacted InvestigativeMEDIA herself.
All of sudden… NOW she was ready to talk to InvestigativeMEDIA herself about Eric’s cellphone and the call records for that phone.
** Sunday, December 20, 2015
The following day… after being contacted by Amanda Marsh… InvestigativeMEDIA then ran this ‘follow up’ story…
InvestigativeMEDIA
Eric Marsh had no cell phone communications in hours before deployment, his widow says
Published: Saturday, December 20, 2015 – By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/eric-marsh-had-no-cell-phone-communications-in-hours-before-deployment-his-widow-says/
Excerpts from the article…
—————————————————————————————
(Story updated at 9:05 a.m., Dec. 21, 2015 to include Amanda Marsh’s statement
that Eric Marsh only carried one cell phone.)
Granite Mountain Hotshot superintendent Eric Marsh did not make or receive any cell phone calls in the three hours leading up to the burn over that claimed his life along with 18 other members of his crew during the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013, his wife Amanda Marsh said Saturday.
The question of whether Marsh was in cell phone communication with fire commanders in the hours leading up to the tragedy has lingered for more than two years after two state investigations failed to examine his cell phone records.
“There was nothing after 1:11 p.m.,” Amanda Marsh said. “That call was with Todd Abel.” Abel was a senior commander directing fire suppression operations.
Abel has told investigators he had a cell phone discussion with Marsh at that time to discuss a disagreement Marsh had with another fire commander.
But the call was about three hours before Granite Mountain moved from a safe zone on a ridge in the Weaver Mountains west of Yarnell and descended into a box canyon where the crew was trapped by flames at about 4:40 p.m.
Amanda Marsh contacted InvestigativeMEDIA Saturday evening, three days after it was reported her husband’s phone arrived with his body to the Office of the Maricopa County Medical Examiner on July 1 but was not later included as evidence collected by the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office.
The YCSO collected other cell phones that arrived with the bodies of hotshots and sent them to the Arizona Counter Terrorism Information Center for analysis to determine whether data could be recovered.
Amanda Marsh said a Prescott firefighter later gave her Eric’s cell phone a few weeks after the fire. The firefighter, who she said was not in a command position, met her near the Yavapai County Courthouse in downtown Prescott.
“The phone was destroyed,” she said. “I threw it into a garbage can near the square.”
Amanda Marsh said there were also no text messages. “Eric used a flip phone and it was difficult for him to text,” she said.
She said Eric Marsh only had one cell phone. She noted that sometimes the crew took a satellite phone into remote areas, but she didn’t believe the satellite phone was used in Yarnell.
Amanda Marsh said no one from the Serious Accident Investigation Team that was contracted by the state to conduct an investigation into the disaster ever contacted her to obtain Eric’s cell phone records.
The SAIT released its Serious Accident Investigation Report on Sept. 28, 2013. The report found that no one did anything wrong despite the fact the hotshots were killed in a box canyon that wild land firefighters know are death traps.
Retired wildfire death investigator Dick Mangan has sharply criticized the SAIT for failing to obtain cell phone records, not only from Marsh, but everyone else working on the fire on June 30.
The use of cell phones during wildfires has become more common and has become a source of controversy since crucial decisions could be made privately that typically are done over radio channels that many firefighters can hear.
Amanda Marsh said she declined to provide the cell phone records in the past to InvestigativeMEDIA because she was trying to move on with her life.
She also said she knew the records didn’t show any communications between her husband and fire commanders in the moments leading up to the crucial decision around 4 p.m. to leave their safety zone.
The Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health in December 2013 issued three citations and levied fines against the Arizona Forestry Division totaling $559,000 for its management of the fire.
But like the SAIT, Amanda Marsh said ADOSH investigators never contacted her about Eric’s cell phone records.
—————————————————————————————
There are STILL some unsettling things about this ‘new’ information, even coming from Amanda Marsh.
Not the least of which are…
1. She was, apparently, willing to just ‘talk’ about the cellphone records, but still not supply any original copies to InvestigativeMEDIA. There is no mention even in this followup article of InvestigativeMEDIA having an opportunity to VERIFY what is being said by inspecting whatever actual cellphone records seem to be in Ms. Marsh’s possession.
2. She apparently still refuses to NAME the person who actually GAVE her Eric’s cellphone back, after it ‘walked out of the Medical Examiner’s office’ the day of Eric’s autopsy and this crucial evidence item never entered the possession of the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office investigators who were THERE to specifically ‘collect’ such items as ‘evidence’.
3. Eric’s phone appears to have been returned to her in some kind of ‘special meeting’ with some (unnamed) Prescott firefighter on the Courthouse square… like it was some kind of ‘drug deal’, or something. This cellphone appears ( according to this interview ) to have been returned to her SEPARATE from the other two items that were known to have been found in the same shirt pocket. Eric’s Compass and Signal Mirror.
This seems to be proof that the ‘cellphone’ itself went on a ‘separate journey’ than even the other two items that were found in the same pocket at the start of Eric’s autopsy.
WHY?
4. “The phone was destroyed,” she said. “I threw it into a garbage can near the square.”
Not only is this not really all that ‘credible’… when Amanda Marsh first admitted she had received Eric’s cellphone back along with his Compass and Signal mirror in a public interview around the time of the first anniversary of the tragedy… she makes no mention of having done this. She only described the phone’s condition at that time as ‘non-working’, and there was no mention of if having been ‘destroyed’ and/or ‘disposed of’.
I DO find it hard to believe that someone who has been publicly stating that she ‘cherishes’ anything she got back that belonged to Eric would have just tossed his cellphone into a gargabe can moments after receiving it via this ‘mysterious meeting’ on the Prescott Courthouse Square.
Besides… Amanda Marsh herself is in no way qualified to know whether a modern electronic device is ‘destroyed’ to the point where no data could be salvaged from it. The fact that the phone never entered the possession of Official Investigators and had the chance to be examined by EXPERTS remains as ‘mysterious’ a set of circumstances as it has always been.
Followup…
Amanda Marsh has now CONFIRMED that US Forestry Official and SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley is an absolute bald-faced LIAR.
** Mike Dudley – SAIR Co-Leader – Presentation – June 2014
On June 20, 2014, a YouTube user named Fitz Petersen published the following PUBLIC video of a presentation given by Mike Dudley, the Co-Lead of the Yarnell Hill SAIT Investigation, to a gathering of the Utah Unified Fire Authority…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWm3myJdQO4
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said ( publicly )…
—————————————————————————————
+1:08:14
One of the things that we did try to look into was… was there any undue influence given by a key member of the Prescott Fire Department by telephone. Not by radio… by telephone… pushing them to get off that spot… and we can validate that there wasn’t. There wasn’t anybody getting in the way of saying “Hey… you guys… get off your ass and get down here”… other than the one suggestion from the OPS “Can you come down?”… and it’s okay to ask that… but it’s also okay to say “No… we can’t… we’re not in a position to do that”.
—————————————————————————————
Dudley is obviously referring to the theory that emerged almost immediately after the tragedy that there might have been some attempt by Darrell Willis himself ( who was Eric’s boss and working the same fire ) to CALL Eric and somehow ORDER him to get Granite Mountain ‘to town’, regardless of how dangerous it was.
Dudley says ( unequivocally )…
“we can validate that there wasn’t.”
According to Amanda Marsh’s new testimony… US Forestry Official Mike Dudley is a LIAR.
His pants are not only on fire… they are also now burning down around his ankles.
If the SAIT never even requested Eric Marsh’s cellphone records… then it was NOT possible for them to be sure someone ( Willis, or anyone else ) had NOT called Eric and suggested/directed/ordered him to “get those men to town right now”.
It does sound like Amanda Marsh could be a partner in crime along with her husband Eric Marsh, both complicit in a crime she apparently would like to cover up for her own benefit. Sadly it does no good for future wild land firefighters whom need to understand the seriousness of breaking the 10 and 18, lack of respect for the same and procedures that killed 17 men willing to follow their leaders unknowingly and innocently believing they were doing the right thing. The idea that each man must strictly obey orders every day must have been pounded into their minds to a high degree to follow orders bound to kill them
Reply to Robert (RTS) the Second post on December 22, 2015 at 12:23 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Everyone KNEW the GMHS were in ‘the black; safe and sound,
You really need to qualify ‘Everyone’ in that statement.
LOTS of people ( including people in fire command ) KNEW that was NOT the case.
At 4:13 PM, Eric Marsh himself ANNOUNCED ( over open radio channels ) that was NOT the case, and anyone/everyone whose radios also ‘locked on’ to that conversation now knew it as well.
They were headed ( in Eric’s own words ) “SOUTH… using the escape route from this mornin'”.
But it was ONLY SPGS1 Gary Cordes who fully understood what “escape route from this mornin'” really meant… because HE is the one who ‘assigned’ that Boulder Springs Ranch to GM as their ‘pre-determined’ escape route… and then failed to do the same thing for the NEXT Hotshot crew that was then going to be working on the same ‘project’ as GM. Brian Frisby was NEVER told this “Boulder Springs Ranch” even existed so he had NO idea what “escape route from this mornin'” meant.
But he certainly DID know that Granite Mountain was “on the move” some time before the tragedy.
He just didn’t understand HOW or TO WHERE.
But OTHERS knew ALL of that.
The WHERE, the HOW, and ( no doubt ) also the WHY.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> so only those already monitoring the GMHS Crew Net were privy to what they were
>> talking about, ‘discussing our option’ and Marsh and Steed arguing about it.
>>
>> Therefore, there was NO reason for the BRHS to be monitoring the GMHS Crew
>> Net in the GMHS Crew Carriers. With the flip of a switch that channel is silenced.
>> Done – now they can concentrate on all the other stuff going on, and there was plenty.
I hear ya. That has always been a possibility ( that all THREE of the Blue Ridge crewmen driving all THREE of those GM vehicles switched off the onboard GM radios )…
…but we still have that public testimony from SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley that MULTIPLE people had reported to the SAIT that they heard this argument between Marsh and Steed.
And when Mike Dudley made that public statement… the most curious thing was that it was him ‘interrupting’ himself when he was already talking about the “Blue Ridge Hotshots”.
If you actually WATCH the public video of that speech at that point… it really does look like the fact that he was now talking about “Blue Ridge Hotshots” had suddenly “jogged his memory” and that’s when he interrupted himself and stated that “some people told us they heard this argument”. As if he was suddenly remembering that it was, in fact, ‘some’ of the Blue Ridge Hotshots ( as in… MORE than just one ) who had made those statements to the SAIT.
Again… here is what Dudley said… including what he was saying just BEFORE suddenly recalling that “some people said there was an argument”…
** Full VIDEO of Mike Dudley’s public speech in June of 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWm3myJdQO4
————————————————————————————–
+1:04:10
* Question from audience member: Do you know of any… uhm… dissention
* within the crew… did they try and split off at any point prior to or during
* the deployment?
Mike Dudley: The question is… was there any decision… dissention within the crew
and did any folks try to split off. Ah… Blue Ridge made the comment.. a number
of those folks… they said “you know what… when they left the lunch spot…
they were ALL in lock-step with one other”… because that was a pretty cohesive
crew. Uh.. they were very, very close to one another.
+1:04:46
Ahm… so no… there was no indication… now… there’s some allegations that
there was an argument between the Captain and the Superintendent about
which way to go… from that saddle. We can’t validate that.
Some people made that allegation. We don’t have any evidence of that.
—————————————————————————————-
So beyond the fact that Dudley talking about “Blue Ridge” and what they seemed to have heard over the GM Crew Net ( they were ALL in lock-step ) seemed to jog his memory about something ELSE they heard… something about an argument… you have to look at the following statement from Dudley by itself and wonder if that isn’t him confirming that ‘some’ number of the Blue Ridge Crew WERE listening to the GM ‘Crew Net’ and reporting what they had heard to the SAIT alone…
Mike Dudley said…
———————————————————————————————————-
Blue Ridge made the comment.. a number of those folks… they said “you know what…
when they left the lunch spot… they were ALL in lock-step with one other”
———————————————————————————————————-
That one single statement from Dudley really has always seemed to indicate that when the Blue Ridge Crew was being interviewed by the SAIT… they WERE telling them things they could have ( most likely ) only heard over the GM Crew Net.
Maybe what Dudley did in his BRAIN here is the following…
1. He was trying to answer the question from the audience about whether there had been any ‘dissension’ amongst the GM Crew.
2. He then recalled some Blue Ridge crew members testifying that they had HEARD them arrive at some ‘agreement’ about making the move ( over the GM Crew Net ), and that by the time they LEFT… they were all in ‘agreement’ and in ‘lock-step’.
3. But then he interrupted himself and remembered the full CONTEXT of what the Blue Ridge crewmen who had been listening to the GM Crew Net had actually heard.
4. He then ‘backs up’ and starts talking about an ‘argument’ that ‘some people’ also said they heard. Perhaps the SAME Blue Ridge crewman he had just then QUOTED about them being in ‘lock-step’.
5. So maybe the actual ( sequential ) testimony that Dudley is now recalling to try to answer this question from the audience was that FIRST the Blue Ridge Crewmen had told the SAIT they heard an ‘argument’ over the Crew Net… but THEN they told the SAIT that they eventually ALSO heard ‘agreement’ and what Dudley is now characterizing to this audience as “In LOCK-STEP when they left the lunch spot”.
You really do have to watch the video and watch Mike Dudley very closely on this one.
His own reaction to him reporting ( specifically ) that “Blue Ridge Crew members” had told the SAIT they heard GM in “lockstep leaving the lunch spot” seemed to be like a light bulb going off in his head and causing him to then remember something ELSE those SAME GUYS had mentioned. Something about an argument they couldn’t validate.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Maybe AFTER everyone realized that the GMHS had f**ked up by leaving their
>> perfectly good SZ at the worst possible time and headed downhill through
>> heavy unburned fuel in chutes and chimneys, and ultimately into their death
>> trap in the BOWL – THEN MAYBE the BRHS guys started monitoring the
>> GMHS Crew Net. But up until they aware aware of their predicament, I think not.
That’s still a valid scenario… but see above.
Mike Dudley really DOES seem to be telling us that the same Blue Ridge Crew members who testified to the SAIT that they HEARD the GM Crew “In lock step” when leaving the lunch spot were most likely the SAME ‘people’ that testified to hearing the argument which Dudley says they couldn’t ‘validate’.
THAT scenario is ALSO still valid ( until we find out otherwise ).
Correction for above.
I said “escape route” in a place I should have said “safety zone”.
Paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
———————————————————————
But it was ONLY SPGS1 Gary Cordes who fully understood what “escape route from this mornin’” really meant… because HE is the one who ‘assigned’ that Boulder Springs Ranch to GM as their ‘pre-determined’ safety zone… and then failed to do the same thing for the NEXT Hotshot crew that was then going to be working on the same ‘project’ as GM. Brian Frisby was NEVER told this “Boulder Springs Ranch” even existed so he had NO idea what “escape route from this mornin’” meant.
———————————————————————
In all the testimony that was heard… there was plenty that established the fact that it was SPGS1 Gary Cordes who had pointed to some map showing on BLM Rep Dean Fernandez’s iPad and said to Eric Marsh… “See that Boulder Springs Ranch there on the map? It’s bomb-proof. That’s your designated Safety Zone”…
…but there is still no evidence or testimony whatsoever that Cordes had also discussed any specific ‘escape route’ with Marsh.
There is NO evidence that Cordes then drew his finger across that map in a line heading SOUTH from the anchor point and said to Marsh…
“You can take this two-track south if you have to and I guess you could even cut-across whatever this open ground is here ( the box canyon ) to get to that Ranch if you need to.”
As far as we know. That never happened.
As far as we know… Cordes just thought they would stay on that two-track that was showing on the iPad and take THAT route all the way to this Boulder Springs Ranch, if/when they needed to.
WTKTT,
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Everyone KNEW the GMHS were in ‘the black; safe and sound,
WTKTT posted: “You really need to qualify ‘Everyone’ in that statement.”
Fair enough. Everyone that heard them on the radio THOUGHT ‘GMHS were in ‘the black’ safe and sound.
RTS… in any of your contacts or conversations with members of Blue Ridge since the incident… did you ever happen to learn WHO the three Blue Ridge Hotshots WERE who were driving those other three GM vehicles that day?
WTKTT,
Those men are under their Agency imposed gag orders.
Do you know if they all still work for USFS?
There’s been a lot of ‘shake-ups’ and turnovers in Blue Ridge Hotshots.
WTKTT,
Those men are under their Agency imposed gag orders.
WTKTT,
Here’s the USFS ‘Employee Search’ link. You know who you’re interested in, so go for it, search for yourself to find the answers to your questions.
http://www.fs.fed.us/about-agency/contact-us/employee-search
Employees transfer or lateral or promote for many reasons, mostly for family or personal development reasons.
Already did that. ( I’m aware of that link ).
The Blue Ridge Hotshots ( on June 30, 2013, anyway ) that appear to have been the ‘candidates’ for the ones tasked with driving the other three GM vehicles that day no longer show up in that system.
Most of them were SEASONALS and probably wouldn’t have shown up there, anyway, right?
So that’s why I was ‘probing’ to see what you might know.
It’s no secret that you know some/all of these people.
We just still don’t REALLY know what you do or don’t know.
Hence… the questions.
WTKTT,
Forgot about the seasonal employee possibility.
And the rest, you are correct and that’s the way it’s going to be until ….
RTS,
I would like to ask you one question at this time. If you were put into the same position as the BR shots, gagged by your agency and told to withhold critical information about the most horrific loss of life of a shot crew in the history of shot crews and thus diminish the possibility of gaining the most insight we can to prevent it from happening again, what would YOU do and why?
Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I would tell the truth and here’s a few reasons why:
“In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” George Orwell
“Truth is dangerous. It topples palaces and kills kings. It stirs gentle men to rage and bids them take up arms. It wakes old grievances and opens forgotten wounds. It is the mother of the sleepless night and the hag-ridden day. And yet there is one thing that is more dangerous than Truth. Those who would silence Truth’s voice are more destructive by far.
“It is most perilous to be a speaker of Truth. Sometimes one must chose to be silent, or be silenced. But if the truth cannot be spoken, it must at least be known. Even if you dare not speak the truth to others, never lie to yourself.” Frances Harninge
“Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.” Sir Walter Scott
“The search for truth implies a duty. One must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true.” Albert Einstein
“Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth.” Mahatma Ghandi
“Anyone who doesn’t take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either.” Albert Einstein
“The truth will ultimately prevail where there are pains to bring it to light.” George Washington
“By doubting we are led to questioning, by questioning we arrive at the truth.” Peter Abelard
“Some think the truth can be hidden with a little cover-up and decoration. But as time goes by, what is true is revealed and what is fake fades away.” Ismail Haniyeh
“The truth is rarely pure and never simple.” Oscar Wilde
“Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief, or ignorance.” W. Clement Stone
“Silence is the residue of fear.” Clint Smith
“No denial of the truth will ever invalidate it.” Nikki Rosen
“There are two ways to be fooled: One is to believe what isn’t so; the other is to refuse to believe what is so.” Soren Kierkegaard
Woodsman,
Telling the truth is often uncomfortable and almost always controversial. I will NOT succumb to political correctness or hide behind it as a pretext or ruse in order to suppress the truth.
RTS said:
“Therefore, there was NO reason for the BRHS to be monitoring the GMHS Crew
>> Net in the GMHS Crew Carriers. With the flip of a switch that channel is silenced.
>> Done – now they can concentrate on all the other stuff going on, and there was plenty.”
My opinion is that it’s highly unlikely that the BR personnel that were moving the GM buggies would turn off the radios in their buggies. You say there was no reason to keep them on and I say there’s no good reason to shut them off. It doesn’t make any sense to me to do that…especially since everything was going to hell…they would want to have as much information as possible. I would never cut someone off like that just especially since I was moving their truck at the time.
I am also of the opinion that not everyone knew or assumed that GM was locked into the safe black up on the ridge. Until we get sworn testimony from everyone involved, I just can’t make that leap.
I appreciate the opportunity to ask questions about statements here (mine included) so that we can all have a better understanding of the YH fire.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I never said the BRHS guys turned the GMHS crew carrier radios OFF. I said they switched the GMHS Crew Net off.
RTS,
Thank you for the clarification of what you said. I’ll change my opinion to:
“My opinion is that it’s highly unlikely that the BR personnel that were moving the GM buggies would turn off the GM CREWNET frequency on the radios in their buggies.”
I’m not sure why you would make such an affirmative statement unless you know for a fact that they did turn off that channel? It makes me believe that you know the BR members that made that vehicle relocation happen (drivers) and have talked to them. Did you? What did they say? Did they say that they turned off the GM crewnet channel when they moved the buggies? Seems kind of odd to do that, don’t you think? If I’m moving someone else vehicle, I ain’t touchin’ shit on it unless I have to. They may attempt to make radio contact with me on their crewnet, since I’m moving their vehicles, etc. Fill me in on what I don’t know.
Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Those men are under Agency imposed gag orders.
The tactical channel is the proper means to communicate BETWEEN Crews. The Crew Nets are for the respective Crews. As a DIVS, I monitored our Crew Net but talked to the Crew on Tactical, never on Crew Net.
RTS…. there is TESTIMONY from at least one of the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ that was DRIVING one of the GM vehicles that WHILE they were in the vehicle and ‘humping’ it around to the Youth Camp… they were USING the onboard GM Crew-Net channel to talk with Jesse Steed.
From Trueheart Brown’s typed Unit Log…
————————————————————–
I jump in their ( GM’s ) Chase truck and the GM lookout and we pick up our guys in their buggies who fall into the convoy. I then get confirmation that OUR ( Blue Ridge’s ) trucks are at the Youth Camp from ( xxxxxx Redacted ). At this time I jump on THEIR CREW RADIO and talk with ( xxxxx Redacted. Marsh? Steed? ) about where we are taking the buggies and the situation down here. I explain about what we are doing and what the fire behavior is doing. (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted ). I also reiterate that we are going to keep their lookout with us until we tie in with them later. I explain that we will keep their rigs with us, too, because things are very dynamic now and ( xxxx Short Redaction. Most likely ‘Eric’ ) mentions that they are trying to come down off the hill, he mentions traveling through the black. I also get positive confirmation that ( xxxx Again… a very short 4 letter Redaction that must be ‘Eric’ ) understands where the trucks will be parked because he can see the trucks driving out and I orient him to the rocky area north along the dozer line ( end of shrine rd) that we are taking them to.
————————————————————–
So that’s a LONG conversation that Brown appeared to be having with Eric Marsh WHILE he was in the process of leading that vehicle convoy OUT of the Sesame area, through Glen Ilah, north on Highway 89, then west on Shrine Road to the Youth Camp.
And he says he was using THEIR CREW RADIO for this conversation.
Since the GM Crew-net was the priority channel in the truck he was driving… one has to assume this long conversation was taking place on the GM Intra-Crew frequency itself.
There’s also no background radio captures on any TAC channel that includes ANY of this LONG conversation between Brown and Marsh so that would seem to more proof that conversation was taking place on the GM Crew-Net frequency.
We KNOW that Brown himself was one of the three ‘drivers’ that was helping to move the GM vehicles. The other TWO were ( according to Brown himself ) simply the last two guys on the west end of the Blue Ridge line as they were ‘spread out’ there on the Cutover Trail.
Brown says he just “grabbed the last two guys” on his way out to the Sesame Area to begin humping the GM trucks around.
Correction for above…
I said…
————————————————
RTS…. there is TESTIMONY from at least one of the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ that was DRIVING one of the GM vehicles that WHILE they were in the vehicle and ‘humping’ it around to the Youth Camp… they were USING the onboard GM Crew-Net channel to talk with Jesse Steed.
————————————————-
In actuality… Brown’s Unit Log seems to suggest this LONG conversation he had using the GM CREW RADIO was with ‘Eric Marsh’, not ‘Jesse Steed’.
Every time there is a ‘redaction’ in Brown’s log in this section, it is a very SHORT 4-character redaction… which pretty much means the only WORD it could be is ‘Eric’.
WTKTT,
You posted: “From Trueheart Brown’s typed Unit Log…
————————————————————–
I jump in their ( GM’s ) Chase truck and the GM lookout and we pick up our guys in their buggies who fall into the convoy.”
Yes, True was in the GMHS CHASE TRUCK and NOT any of the GMHS Crew Carriers. His BRHS Crewmembers were in the GMHS Crew Carriers and NOT Trew Brown.
I have never disputed that anyone in the GMHS Supt (Chase?) truck was monitoring the GMHS Crew Net.
Those men are under Agency imposed gag orders and I honor that.
RTS,
you said:
“Yes, True was in the GMHS CHASE TRUCK and NOT any of the GMHS Crew Carriers. His BRHS Crewmembers were in the GMHS Crew Carriers and NOT Trew Brown.”
I say:
Why are you ‘clarifying’ something that is obviously factually correct on its face…that True Brown was driving GM’s chase truck (he said so in a written statement) and not performing the super-human feat of driving more than one vehicle at the same time?
And RTS also said up above:
“I never said the BRHS guys turned the GMHS crew carrier radios OFF. I said they switched the GMHS Crew Net off.”
To which RTS replies now:
“I have never disputed that anyone in the GMHS Supt (Chase?) truck was monitoring the GMHS Crew Net.”
It seems like you are ‘circling the wagons’ around BRHS. I’m not sure why. Let me give you my opinion on something…all the information I have leads me to the conclusion that the BRHS saved EVERYONE THEY COULD POSSIBLY SAVE at the Yarnell Hill fire. I really believe that.
Oh and one more thing sir, if BRHS is under an Agency (your emphasis) imposed gag order (according to your numerous repeated declarations), then how do you know this information that you provide here…if they are under an Agency imposed gag order?
Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
It came from anonymous sources because those men are under Agency imposed gag orders and they are steadfastly abiding by that order.
Woodsman,
I totally agree with you and also believe the conclusion that the BRHS saved EVERYONE THEY COULD POSSIBLY SAVE at the Yarnell Hill Fire. They were INSTRUMENTAL in LEADERSHIP ROLES AND MUCH, MUCH MORE saving lives in Yarnell and in The Shrine area as well.
And we also need to remember Sun City West (Peoria) FD firefighter Darby Starr for his actions that day recognizing the imminent downdrafts from outflow winds.
“As the Fire District of Sun City West’s engine boss for wildlands fire assignments, Starr and three colleagues — one each from Sun City West, Peoria and Glendale — had seen the late-afternoon winds become terribly erratic as they helped fight the Yarnell Hill blaze on June 30, 2013. Starr noticed what seemed to be fire moving in the opposite direction of where it had been headed all day. He even thought he heard some claps of thunder.
“Then came the spritz of rain.
“As soon as I felt that rain, that’s when I decided we needed to pull out,” he said.
“It was a decision colleagues believe prevented further loss of firefighter lives in the blaze that claimed 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots in the deadliest day for U.S. Forest Service firefighting since 1933.”
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/arizona/yourwestvalley/article_b45e044e-ff70-5326-a7fa-16b09de28e9f.html
Below is a link to a 30 June 2014 article titled: “Additional lessons that could be learned regarding Yarnell Hill Fire – What the after action reports and videos do not state” in a USNG (US National Grid) Florida . I found it on today’s (December 22, 2015) Wildfire Today.com site in the ‘Tactical Mapping and Photography Apps’ article in the COMMENTS section by “Al.”.
Among other things, it talks about the lack of GMHS using the MAYDAY alert to their troubles on 30 June 2013. They also talk about the use of the LUNAR system, i.e. “LUNAR; Location, Unit ID, Name, Assignment, Resources needed.” They also refer to the use of Smart Phones and it’s GPS capabilities, and other mapping and location apps.
Here are a few statements they make, obviously buying into the SAIT SAIR Party Line, and obviously NOT reading what’s been going on in the Investigative Media blog:
(1) “The Granite Mountain team left the ridge in route to the safety zone ranch.”
NO, not quite; the GMHS left their perfectly good SZ in ‘the black’ to allegedly go to ‘protect structures’ at the BSR, referred to as “the safety zone ranch.”
(2) “By not issuing a position report, the tanker that was in the air at the time could never assist them or find them soon after they were burned over.”
Having to rely on air support, e.g. airtankers, helitankers, bucket drops, whatever, is a REALLY BAD idea and VERY UNRELIABLE. AND it also means you have gotten yourselves into deep shit!
(3) “Just to state it clearly, US National Grid alone, would not have saved the Granite Mountain Hotshots. The conditions that day were extraordinary and the crew did leave the black preventing constant direct visualization of the fire.”
Really? “… the crew did leave the black PREVENTING CONSTANT DIRECT VISUALIZATION OF THE FIRE.” WTF!? How about, the crew f**ked up by NOT following The Basic WFF Rules, e.g. LCES, i.e. LOOKOUTS and/or at the very least, notifying either AA or B33 what their intentions were (leaving the black and their perfectly good SZ) and/or where they were headed, their destination (the BSR).
This is a worthwhile read that has some very good, fairly detailed images from the USNG product.
Still. this is only PART of the solution AFTER following the required, tried-and-trued WFF Basics of the 10 and 18 and LCES! We have safely and successfully fought fire for years without these ‘tools.’ Knowing by heart, understanding, and following the Ten Standard Fire Orders and as well as Knowing by heart, understanding, recognizing, and mitigating the 19 Watch Out Situations are responsible for saving tens of thousands of WFF lives EVERY SINGLE YEAR!
https://medium.com/@USNGFlorida/additional-lessons-that-could-be-learned-regarding-yarnell-hill-fire-7cfc3d545c94#.j560kem0y
Reply to Robert the Second post on December 22, 2015 at 12:09 pm
>> From the article…
>>
>> “The conditions that day were extraordinary and the crew did leave
>> the black preventing constant direct visualization of the fire.”
>>
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Really? “… the crew did leave the black PREVENTING CONSTANT DIRECT
>> VISUALIZATION OF THE FIRE.” WTF!? How about, the crew f**ked up by
>> NOT following The Basic WFF Rules, e.g. LCES, i.e. LOOKOUTS and/or at
>> the very least, notifying either AA or B33 what their intentions were (leaving
>> the black and their perfectly good SZ) and/or where they were headed,
>> their destination (the BSR).
From SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s own lips, in that PUBLIC speech he made to that roomful of Utah firefighters…
“I will say this. There is this point where… well… you can see the
dialogue… and that’s one of the key components.
It was almost as if Granite Mountain was bein’ DELIBERATELY vague.”
And when the article says THIS…
>> “The conditions that day were extraordinary and the crew did leave
>> the black preventing constant direct visualization of the fire.”
That is said in a way as to suggest “Well… of COURSE they lost direct visual sight of the fire because the ‘left the black’. Doesn’t everybody”?
No. They don’t.
Whether you are MOVING or not… having NO LOOKOUTS watching the fire FOR you… and then actually losing sight yourself of what the fire is DOING for even one minute is about the stupidest thing ANYONE could ever do ‘out there’.
Just BECAUSE you decide to leave some ‘safe black’ doesn’t *automatically* mean you also lose your situational awareness and your “eyes on the fire”.
Those are TWO different choices.
Sonny said DECEMBER 21, 2015 AT 4:27 PM:
“The lady and Joy named her, has lately deceased and had the photos of the two quads that were at the fire and lightening strike on Friday as the fire started. No investigator official has looked into that. Because the yellow and white copter that we saw fan the fire accidentally or on purpose? on Sunday the 30th around 10:300-11:30 am was also the color of the quads. I thought they might be also a BLM ownership. Dr. Putnam told me not necessarily so. Totally unimaginable that investigators did not look into that evidence.”
In George DeLange’s two June 29, 2013 photos of the Yarnell Fire Department, one taken in the afternoon and the other taken at night, there is a yellow UTV parked there in the parking lot.
http://www.delange.org/Yarnell_Forest_Fire/Yarnell_Forest_Fire.htm
I currently think that is the UTV that Cory Ball borrowed to go into Glen Ilah.
Maybe it was also one of the ones that “the lady” had in her photo?
The reason I’ve been thinking that yellow UTV is the one Cory borrowed, is because, in one of David Kadlubowski’s photos of the RHR parking lot scene, there is someone, way over to the left, on a yellow UTV with a blue helmet on. It’s not the Blue Ridge UTV, which I think you can see over to the right surrounded by some f the fire-fighters.
I haven’t dug into this a lot, so I’m open to being corrected (as usual).
Here’s an article that includes that photo. You have to scroll about half-way down to see the photo.
“In the Valley of Fire”
By MATTHEW TEAGUE JUNE 22, 2014
Los Angeles Times
http://graphics.latimes.com/yarnell/
Thanks Marti. We had asked around and there were other witnesses that had seen that quad but this is the first we find who had it. There is a question as to the time it was up at the fire line. The neighbor of the lady that passed said Friday, but this photo shows Saturday and that is the Prison Crew there near the Quad. So at least we know that there was a yellow Quad and now that would demand that those photos be located to see when they were time stamped.
You see the lady that had the photos was private and Joy finally met Cindy who had the photos and she had promised to give Joy copies but then she died before that happened. It is said either her sister or Laura has the photos now. I wonder why we are doing this type of investigation when I had ;put this information out there many times. You would have thought the official investigators would have jumped on that one. Of Course, with the situation of Cindy being deceased we will wait some time to approach them about the photos. It seems the state could care less about the photos that might be a key to this mystery, although, I now wonder if the photos are of a Saturday run up to the fire where it was smoldering among the boulders on the south end as they would have seen it from their residence in Yarnell. Consider that these people were discussing photos some months or years after they had taken around the time of the fire. So actual photos would be time stamped I hope.
We are headed to Phoenix in a bit. Joy’s Dad died yesterday and she has to sign off as POA before the body can be moved? Dumb Arizona law that you can not move a body until POA signs.
I had a nice glass of wine at the get together Ered had of all the actor and actesses
that made the play “The Fence” that brought in monies for the cause of loved ones and honored the GMHS. We were invited and it was good to see the comradery among the many actors and actesses. Ered had expended much time diredting the play, even visiting us on our desert camp when Joy and I were living outdoors for a long time after the burning of Yarnell. He expended thousands of his own money producing the play while many volunteers that acted helped him produce the play. He says he intends to put it on again and also hopes to get it into a movie. So much appreciation goes to Ered Matthews for his good work at honoring those men and his heartfelt empathy for the loved ones and friends of the GMHS crew. I wish him good tidings in his efforts to go forward in his good work.
We appreciate your identifying those quads since when had not personally seen Cindy’s photos and I was beginning to think those were ghost quads. Now we know they were there after all. Amazing how much is discovered by those on this site.
“this photo shows Saturday and that is the Prison Crew there near the Quad. So at least we know that there was a yellow Quad and now that would demand that those photos be located to see when they were time stamped.”
Yes, that’s the prison crew.
The photos are, in fact, time stamped.
The afternoon photo was taken at 5:45:02 PM. The night photo was taken at 8:03 PM.
It’s also worth noting that for the 2 hours and 18 minutes ‘between’ those two photos… that lime-yellow ATV doesn’t appear to have moved even one inch…
…nor has the white pickup with the trailer attached… which seems to obviously be the trailer that lime-yellow ATV came OUT of?
SIDENOTE: Even though it’s a known fact that Russ Shumate had tasked Jake Guadiana with ‘finding a way to hike to the fire’ on Saturday morning… the evidence suggests that Guadiana did that ‘scouting’ in his own command vehicle… and that’s when he came back and told Shumate there was “no way to hike to the fire”.
There is no mention of any ATV or UTV ( lime-yellow or other color ) being part of that ‘scouting’ effort on Saturday, even if the DOC really did bring one with them in that white pickup with white trailer seen in the photos.
“Joy’s Dad died yesterday and she has to sign off as POA before the body can be moved? Dumb Arizona law that you can not move a body until POA signs.”
Wow. that’s really weird. I was POA for both my dad and my mom, and I never had to do any “signing” off for either of them when they died. But, sitting here, thinking, I’m not even sure how that worked.
We have long-standing relationships with our mortuary, so that may be relevant. Interesting. When both my parents died, our mortuary just came and got them. I hadn’t even thought about that.
Went to our Credit Union today to close out the Trust Account, my mom’s account, and transfer her IRA to me. After going to Manzano Del Sol, where my mom lived, for lunch. A really awesome retirement center that my dad, basically, invented and actualized. Everybody there was really glad to see me. I’m realizing that community of old, and often dying, people had become one of my extended families, and I hadn’t been there since March.
Putting one foot in front of the other.
giggling Marti-
That yellow ATV was likely one of those in Cindy’s photo. I now remember Cindy, saw her at the library with Joy. She had also seen lights up there on Friday night at a little after nine, ( Joy just reminded me of the time as well as Bruce’s friend Laura C had the quad photos on the Weavers). Where would the other ATV be from if that was one or could they have been off loaded from the Peeples Valley area. That two track can be approached from another direction since it goes along the weaver then down toward Peeples Valley. There are also branches coming from Peeples Valley. We remember Cindy to be healthy appearances in her 50’s and were quiet surprised that she had deceased considering her healthy appearance and good attitude.
These things left without being investigated, gag orders on BR, attempts to totally gag Joy, alleged shredding of documents said by Cliff DuPuy, false information about reasons for going to the Ranch and supposed loss of communications with GMHS, deletion of documents on line, Donut’s hiding and holding back important evidence, gag orders on others not even fire men who heard conversations, refusal to allow renowned investigators to independently see the site, cursory investigative reports that are more narrative than face, and I could add many more and so could you and WTKTT, Bob Powers, Gary Olson, et. al. investigative savy people.
And the likes of Holly Niel think we should just let this thing go and dry itself up. What a wimpy idea considering we are looking at all this unfinished business.
**
** THE MACKENZIE CAMERA, THE BLUE TRUCK, ETC…
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 20, 2015 at 8:16 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> The thing that I was so sure was a camera that drew me into in the first place….
>> I realized must not have been.
I would just still put at ‘might not have been’ ( a Canon Camera on the ground at deployment site ).
It STILL sure as hell looks like that’s what it MIGHT be.
Until this new evidence emerged establishing ( as a fact ) that a Canon Digital Camera owned by MacKenzie was found sitting in his left shirt pocket at the start of his autopsy… it has always been a ‘consensus’ that the object at the deployment site most likely WAS a ‘Canon Camera’ and it most likely WAS the one that belonged to MacKenzie.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> That still doesn’t excuse the fact that Chris’ camera and Eric’s (etc) cellphones
>> and Robert’s (et als????) GPS units were plucked out of the chain of evidence
>> (by whom and when and why??).
Most certainly doesn’t. With regards to Christoper’s Canon camera, in particular, this new evidence actually means the situation with THAT piece of evidence is even WORSE than we thought.
I won’t use the word ‘believable’… but I’d say it was almost more ‘plausible’ to believe that MacKenzie’s camera didn’t enter the evidence chain because that *might* have been it lying on the ground at the deployment site. Many people would have had ‘access’ to it who were NOT directly involved in the ‘investigation’ ( As in… PFD FFs just tasked with ‘cleaning up’ the deployment site ).
The fact that we know NOW it WAS simply in Christopher’s lef shirt pocket at the start of his official AUTOPSY, but STILL ended up walking out of the Medical Examiner’s office and not entering the official chain of evidence is a WORSE scenario. That means there were just a few LIMITED people who could have had access to it and might have been responsible for it NOT being collected as ‘evidence’ there at the Medical Examiner’s Office.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Hope you find this and read this way down here in the weeds.
I did… and I brought it back up here as a new parent comment to continue the thread.
>> On December 20, 2015 at 8:29 pm, Marti also said…
>>
>> And PS.
>>
>> All of this underscores the serious value of all of us questioning and fact-checking and
>> wrestling with each other regarding what we are saying.
>> And of us being open to that happening. Even when it’s seriously inconvenient,
>> time-consuming, and uncomfortable.
Agree. Bound to be ‘twists and turns’ on a road like this.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And, again, do you agree or not agree with me that that big guy hanging out with
>> Cougan Carothers in the RHR parking lot was Gary Cordes?
I lost track of which exact photographs we were discussion on that, so can’t say for sure.
The only thing I know is that now that we are sure Gary Cordes MUST have been driving that Central Yavapai red-white command vehicle with the camper top and the flat-light bar on top… then we can be equally sure that Gary Cordes is somewhere there in those Tom Story RHR photos… because Cordes’ VEHICLE is defintely there parked over near the RHR.
I still believe he *might* be the white-helmet FF seen THROUGH the back metal cage of the Blue Ridge Polaris UTV… and he might ALSO be the FF with the white helmet seen standing on the porch of the RHR just beyond where his vehicle was parked ( in the Russ Reason video… a different timeframe than the Tom Story photos ).
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And, also, regarding all of this, I’m still a little obsessed with wondering who TF
>> was driving that blue truck with the AZDF IMT decal on it that is ubiquitous in so
>> many photos, that I thought, all things considered, was Cougan Carothers’.
I think you can stop wondering.
Time to practice the old “Re-evaluate assumptions based on new evidence” dance.
I think there is ‘new evidence’ that establishes, without a doubt, that the Blue Pickup with the “Arizona Incident Management Team” logo on the side was defintely being driven by OPS2 Paul Musser that day.
The NEW evidence ( in a nutshell ) is…
1. After a meticulous frame-by-frame look at that Aaron Hulburd M2U00264 video where we definitely see OPS2 Paul Musser in the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine, there’s little doubt now that the Blue Pickup seen ‘turning around’ in that parking lot ( just before Trueheart Brown and Brian Frisby appear from the west in their Polaris Ranger UTV ) is Paul Musser now ‘turning around’ and LEAVING that parking lot in the driver’s seat of the Blue Pickup.
Previous assumption was that just because we first see that Blue Pickup entering the video frame from that RIGHT side… that meant it was someone who had just ‘driven up’ to the Shrine parking lot area from the EAST.
That does NOT appear to be the case.
Close examination of this video ( frame by frame ) reveals that that Blue Pickup did NOT ‘arrive from the east’ and it was ALREADY THERE when the video began, parked BEHIND Aaron Hulburd and his video camera. Paul Musser was already there when the video began, as well. When he crosses behind Hulburd and disappears… the next thing we see is that Blue Pickp ‘turning around’ and the driver is yelling to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… “Is that it? Is everyone OUT now?”.
The driver also LOOKS like Paul Musser.
So I believe all we are seeing here is Paul Musser ‘turning around’ after having been parked BEHIND Hulburd’s camera, and beginning to leave that parking lot area driving that Blue Pickup.
See more about this below ( and in the ‘Replies’ ).
2. Byron Kimball ( one of the only other valid candidates for being the driver of that Blue Pickup ) testified that, in no uncertain terms, did he EVER go down any ‘side roads’ like Shrine Road that day. He stuck to Highway 89 that day in the timeframe in question.
3. There is a NEW photograph of that Blue Pickup parked up there outside the main entrance of the Model Creek Elementary School ICP… and it’s in the pre-NOON timeframe ( 11:55 AM ) and it ALSO clearly shows the license plate number of that ‘Blue Pickup’.
The license plate number of the ‘Blue pickup’ is “G (space) 309G0”
or possibly “G (space) 30960”. Only 1 digit is not clear.
** THE ‘YHF COLLABORATIVE’ PAGE – AND THE BLUE PICKUP
A few weeks ago, when Sitta started that new “YHF Collaborative” page, one of the things being ‘tested’ was whether or not the ‘Messaging’ or the ‘Documents’ interfaces over at this free ‘Basecamp’ thing was going to be adequate.
As it turned out… the standard ‘Messaging boards’ do NOT really have the right ‘Editing’ capabilities to use for ongoing discussions… but it appears the ‘Documents’ section DOES.
So I suggested to Sitta we ‘test fly’ what I was then calling ‘ISSUE’ documents.
These ‘ISSUE’ documents would be just what you would think.
A particular ISSUE could just a ‘document’ ( created by anyone ), and the top level document would be ‘Editable’ and could then be ‘changing’ as more evidence comes to light or the ‘story’ about that ISSUE itself changes.
So the IDEA was to have the top level ISSUE document always be the latest/greatest information and/or consensus about that ISSUE… and the COMMENTS section for that ISSUE document the place where the ‘details’ get ‘hashed out’.
This makes it very similar to what you are doing at DailyKos with your “Diary”.
There is a ‘top level article’ ( which can be updated )… but the COMMENTS that follow are just the place where that ISSUE is being DISCUSSED… complete with the ability for people to post PHOTOS and VIDEOS in the comments themselves.
To make a long story short… the ISSUE I chose to create over there and the one that Sitta and I were ‘test flying’ was this ongoing issue which vehicle OPS2 Paul Musser was driving.
Direct link to the “YHF Collaborative” home page…
https://3.basecamp.com/3118669/projects/82009
Cick on the ‘Docs and Files’ box in the lower right corner on this page.
Second ‘document’ from the left on this next page is an ‘ISSUE’ document
with the title…
ISSUE: Which vehicle was OPS2 Paul Musser Driving?
( Continued next Reply )
( Continued from previous message )
I meant to do this in the last chapter… but it started filling up too fast, and then I meant to post it at the start of the new chapter ( 18 )… but a lot of ‘news’ started ‘popping’… but here is that top-level ISSUE document from over in the “YHF Collaborative” site that Sitta created…
———————————————————————————————-
YHF COLLABORATIVE – ISSUE DOCUMENT
ISSUE: Which vehicle was OPS2 Paul Musser Driving?
The following is a PUBLIC photograph of OPS2 Paul Musser that was taken in 2003 and accompanied the following
Arizona Daily Sun article about his firefighting related trips to Australia…
The Arizona Daily Sun
Article Title: Local man fights fire in Australian Outback
Published: March 09, 2003 11:00 pm
http://azdailysun.com/local-man-fights-fire-in-australian-outback/article_09b94202-9c72-5ce6-a92b-acb3d17f5169.html
Photo filename: Paul musser headshot 03257299 eb0d 5c58 9561 cdada361c662.image
Photo caption: PUBLIC photo of Paul Musser taken in March, 2003
It would appear that OPS2 Paul Musser was driving that small single-cab dark-blue pickup with the “Arizona Incident Management Team” logo on the side in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
The most compelling evidence comes from one of the Aaron Hulburd videos that wasn’t released by the US Forestry Service until long AFTER the Arizona Forestry SAIT and the Arizona ADOSH investigations had already completed.
In Aaron Hulburd video M2U00264, OPS2 Paul Musser is clearly seen standing right in front of Hulburd’s camera when the video begins. He is standing in the parking lot of the Shrine of St. Joseph there at the west end of Shrine Road. The TIME is just moments before the final group of vehicles that were working back at the Shrine Road Youth Camp would be seen ‘evacuating’ and heading EAST on Shrine Road, and only about 9 minutes before the first “We are in front of the flaming front!” MAYDAY call would be heard in the next Hulburd video.
Shortly into the video, Prescott National Forest employee and Arizona Forestry contractor KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell is seen entering from the right side of Hulburd’s camera. A moment later, Yowell greets OPS2 Paul Musser with a “Hiya, Paul!”.
That is when OPS2 Paul Musser says to Yowell “Everything’s goin’ to shit” and Yowell laughs and agrees with Musser.
So that really is OPS2 Paul Musser in the WHITE Helmet with the black strap on it, yellow Nomex shirt, and tan pants being filmed in this Hulburd M2U00264 video.
There are also ‘frames’ in this video that clearly show Paul Musser’s face, which match other known photos of Paul Musser.
A short while later… we see/hear Paul Musser cross BEHIND Hulburd and his camera and start walking EAST. Moments later… that small dark-blue single-cab pickup with the “Arizona Incident Management Team” logo appears in the video and we hear the driver call out to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell “Is that the last group?”.
That driver has the same WHITE helmet with black strap on that Paul Musser was seen wearing just moments before in the same video, and the voice of the driver matches other recordings of OPS2 Paul Musser.
It was once believed that this small dark-blue single-cab pickup had ‘arrived’ in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot by coming in from the EAST on Shrine Road DURING the video and just moments before it appears. A close inspection of the M2U00264 video reveals that is not the case. There are moments in the video just before this dark-blue pickup appears where the camera was turned to the EAST and there are NO vehicles approaching that area from the EAST.
So that means this small single-cab dark-blue pickup now being seen in the video was ALREADY THERE when the video began and we see OPS2 Paul Musser standing right in front of the camera.
It had to have been ‘parked’ right there to the RIGHT of where Aaron Hulburd was filming as the video begins… but BEHIND him and not visible in any frame of the video until it is seen ‘turning around’ there in the parking lot.
In some of the frames of the video where this dark-blue pickup is now seen ‘turning around’ in the video the FACE of the driver also appears to be a match for Paul Musser.
So what we are really seeing here is NOT someone ARRIVING from the EAST in that dark-blue pickup with a WHITE helmet on… we are seeing Paul Musser having crossed BEHIND Aaron Hulburd, gotten into this dark-blue pickup that was already parked there, and beginning to LEAVE the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot. As he leaves he decides to head WEST in the parking lot for a moment in order to have that verbal exchange with KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and ask him “Is that the last group?”.
The significance of establishing exactly which vehicle OPS2 Paul Musser was driving that day is because the photographic and video record can then provide his whereabouts when he made his admitted radio callout to DIVSA Eric
Marsh at exactly 1542 ( 3:42 PM ) that day. That is the radio call where Paul Musser testified he actually ASKED Eric Marsh if he and Granite Mountain were still (quote) “committed to the ridge” and he also testified that Eric Marsh told him ( at 3:42 PM ) “Yes… we are committed to the ridge. If you need Hotshots… try Blue Ridge… they are already down there”.
If Paul Musser was really driving that small single-cab dark-blue pickup that day ( as would appear to be the case ) then that also means he made that 3:42 PM ‘availability check’ radio call out to Eric Marsh at least 12 minutes BEFORE he ever met up with SPGS1 Gary Cordes on the side of Highway 89.
One of the Panebaker Air Study videos actually captures this same single-cab dark-blue pickup heading EAST on Hays Ranch Road ( from the Sickles Ranch Road area where Musser says he was ) and towards Yarnell at exactly 1551 ( 3:51 PM ).
That’s 9 ( NINE ) minutes AFTER Musser made his radio call to Eric Marsh at exactly 1542 ( 3:42 PM ).
At 3:51 PM, when Musser passed that Panebaker camera there on Hays Ranch Road, he would have still been another 2 or 3 minutes away from arriving where SPGS1 Gary Cordes was staged there on the side of Highway 89. That makes it at least a 12 to 13 minute ‘time gap’ between when Musser made that radio call to Eric Marsh and when he finally met ‘face-to-face’ with SPGS1 Gary Cordes on the side of Highway 89.
There are some who have always believed that Musser was already ‘face-to-face’ with SPGS1 Gary Cordes when he made his 3:42 PM ‘availability check’ radio call to Eric Marsh… but if Musser really was driving that single-cab dark-blue pickup that day ( as appears to be the case ) then that is an impossibility.
Thoughts? Disagreements? Other evidence that proves something else?
Please post additional comments about this ISSUE down below in this document.
——————————————————————————————
END OF ‘ISSUE’ DOCUMENT ON THE “YHF COLLABORATIVE” SITE
NOTE: The ‘Replies’ to this ISSUE document then started detailing things and testing the new ability to post PHOTOS and VIDEOS in the ‘comments’ themselves to support any theories being discussed.
I’m also going to post a few of those comments here… but you won’t be able to see the PHOTOS that appear in the comments themselves over at “YHF Collaborative”.
And here are some of the ‘Followup comments’ posted on that ISSUE document over at “YHF Collaborative”, which were just Sitta and I ‘testing’ whether or not this approach to discussion ISSUES was going to work, or not.
You won’t see any of the BOLDFACE or ITALICS formatting or any of the PHOTOS that appear in these ‘comments’ over at “YHF Collaborative”… but here is the TEXT part of the ‘comments’, at least…
——————————————————————————————–
YHF COLLABORATIVE – ISSUE DOCUMENT
ISSUE: Which vehicle was OPS2 Paul Musser Driving?
*** COMMENT
WTKTT, WantsToKnowTheTruth
Followup comment…
COMMENT TITLE: Byron Kimball told ADOSH he never left Highway 89 or went down the Shrine Road that afternoon.
The other ‘candidate’ for the driver of that small single-cab dark-blue pickup with the “Arizona Incident Management Team” logo on the side of it has actually always been FBAN Byron Kimball.
However… Byron Kimball himself testified to ADOSH that while he DID drive down to Yarnell in roughly the same timeframe as OPS2 Paul Musser… Kimball specifically said he NEVER went down the Shrine Road, or any other ‘side street’. Kimball told ADOSH he stayed on Highway 89 and just stopped in one or two places to take photos as he made his way down to the staging area at the Ranch House Restaurant.
So that makes it impossible for Byron Kimball to have been the one seen driving that single-cab dark-blue pickup filmed out there ‘turning around’ at the west end of Shrine Road in Aaron Hulburd’s M2U00264 video.
So even without the other ‘visual’ evidence that it was Paul Musser driving that dark-blue pickup as seen in Hulburd’s video… the fact that it could NOT have been Byron Kimball leaves Musser as the only other viable candidate.
Here is Byron Kimball’s actual testimony to ADOSH when he was specifically asked if he, himself, ever went down Shrine Road that afternoon. He said he did NOT and that he (quote) “didn’t get off 89” that afternoon.
————————————————————————————-
2520 Q2: Right. Ah, Shrine Road – Shrine Road is off…
2521
2522 A: Shrine Road is off…
2523
2524 Q2: …Harper Canyon?
2525
2526 A: Shrine Road is further north from where the ranch is. It’s…
2527
2528 Q2: Runs…
2529
2530 A: Glen Ilah…
2531
2532 Q2: …East and West.
2533
2534 A: …the Glen Ilah Road kind of runs east-west…
2535
2536 Q2: Uh-huh.
2537
2538 A: …off 89. Shrine is another three or four roads further north in um, in Yarnell.
2539
2540 Q2: When the fire was coming down did you have an opportunity to go down that
2541 road?
2542
2543 A: I did – I did a- no, no, no, no. I didn’t get off 89.
2544
2545 Q2: Okay.
2546
2547 A: As the fire was moving across that – as the fire was moving across there I’m
2548 looking at that going nope.
2549
2550 Q2: Were they using that road to your knowledge?
2551
2552 A: I do not know. I do not know. I – at that point in time I would have hoped, my
2553 feeling would’ve been that I would’ve hoped that there would not have been
2554 anybody down in any of those – down in any of those roads. They were one
2555 and a half lanes at best…
2556
2557 Q1: Mm-hm.
2558
2559 A: …heavily overgrown and very limited visibility.
2560
2561 Q1: Yeah.
2562
2563 A: And so those – those were areas that I would just…
2564
2565 Q2: Well that’s what I was going to ask you as you were driving south I mean it
2566 would probably be very concerned about who was down in those areas?
2567
2568 A: Yeah. I would – I would, you know, to me that’s okay. That’s the structure
2569 protection guys. But I also was – I think I – I can’t hazard a guess but I – I, you
2570 know, to my way of thinking I would not have wanted to be in there as that
2571 fire was moving across, not without very large open areas that I could go out
2572 and sit in the middle of.
————————————————————————————-
There definitely was a U-tube video of fire fighters lighting a back burn right above the Shrine. Joy and I identified that video by a short rock wall to the left or south side of the dirt road and about one hundred yards or so above the pavement ending and parking lot area for the Shrine visitors. Those trees were showing extreme wind velocity and I would suspect they must have been in a direction away from the Shrine. If they had reversed then they would have been approximated to the SW and that would have been OK in relation to the Shrine but also would have been toward the Helms and flanking Glen Isla along its northern border. That would have been OK unless the wind shifted more eastwardly then Glen Isla would have suffered. Either way it would have been heading toward the “bomb proof” Helms and would also been headed to the death canyon just above Helms. Time and distance and wind velocity would give details as to the possibility that would have trapped the GMHS rather than the fire that was a canyon over or whether either or both fires had a factor trapping the men. That U tube video was deleted when we tried to find it later and if it can be retrieved is one of the very important evidences to this tragedy.
The License plate above could it have been GS White plate blue letters.
That would be a Government plate. I cant remember if the s is Small.
also would have U.S. Government across the top.
Just wondering could be just a rental as well.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 21, 2015 at 6:57 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The License plate above could it have been GS White plate blue letters.
Yes. That;s exactly what it is.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> That would be a Government plate.
>> I cant remember if the s is Small. also would have U.S. Government
>> across the top.
>> Just wondering could be just a rental as well.
There is NO DOUBT it’s a ‘government plate’.
Also… the ‘Travel mode’ field in OPS2 Paul Musser’s Resource Order has his confusing entry…
“AOV / POV / Rental”
So which is it?
AOV = “Agency Owned Vehicle”
POV = “Personally Owned Vehicle”
Rental = ??? Lease rentatl… or what?
Paul Musser’s ‘Travel Mode’ field is, I believe, the only one in the entire ‘Resource Orders’ document that is listing all THREE of these potential entries on the same resource order.
If it is a one year lease/rental or longer the Government puts their plates on those Lease vehicles.
Also if the truck was blue would be more likely a lease.
the white ones could be either owned or leased.
I believe the ‘dark blue’ color for this single-cab blue pickup with the white tailgate and the “Arizona Incident Management Team” logo on it is no coincidence.
It’s the same ‘dark blue’ color as the SHIRTS worn by people belonging to this “Arizona Incident Management Team”.
So it could be this pickup ( and others like it? ) were being specifically ‘rented’ for “Arizona Incident Management Teaml” members and one of the ‘perks’ of being on that roster was that you get to take it home and treat it as a ‘Personal Vehicle’ even though it’s a State Rental.
And another ‘test’ comment for this ‘ISSUE’ document over at “YHF Collaborative”.
Again… you won’t see any of the TEXT formatting or the PHOTOS that appear in this comment over there at “YHF Collaborative”…. but here is the TEXT part of the comment…
——————————————————————————————–
YHF COLLABORATIVE – ISSUE DOCUMENT
ISSUE: Which vehicle was OPS2 Paul Musser Driving?
*** COMMENT
WTKTT, WantsToKnowTheTruth
Below is a link to that actual Aaron Hulburd M2U00264 video ( sitting on YouTube) as released by US Forestry. It shows OPS2 Paul Musser interacting with Prescott National Forest employees Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell out in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot just shortly before the deployment MAYDAY traffic would hit the Air-To-Ground radio channel.
The single-cab dark-blue pickup with the “Arizona Incident Management Team” logo on the side is seen ‘turning around’ in the latter half of this video at the +2 minute mark.
NOTE: The white-with-red-stripes ‘Prescott Fire Department’ pickup with the camper top seen in this video is actually ‘Safety Officer’ Tony Sciacca also seen ‘turning around’ and ( after driving west for a moment to talk to Prescott National Foresty employee Jason Clawson there on the north side of the road ) leaving the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot area to head EAST back towards Highway 89.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t75k7o_L6B8&feature=youtu.be
And here is an ’embedded’ copy of the video itself. Just click the PLAY button…
( EMBEDDED VIDEO )
*** NEXT COMMENT by WTKTT, WantsToKnowTheTruth
Comment Title: FRAMES FROM AARON HULBURD’S M2U00264 VIDEO
The following are all ‘still frames’ from Aaron Hulburd’s M2U00264 video.
This FIRST one comes at the very start of the video itself.
The FF in the WHITE Helmet standing on the left side of the frame is OPS2 Paul Musser. Notice that he was wearing a ‘black holster’ on his right side that day.
The white-with-red-stripes ‘Prescott Fire Department’ pickup with the camper top that is seen ‘turning around’ in the parking lot there at the start of this video is being driven by ‘Safety Officer’ Tony Sciacca.
Photo caption: M2u00264 frame 1 medium size
Photo filename: M2U00264-frame-1-medium-size.jpg 17.1 KB
This next frame from Hulburd’s M2U00264 VIDEO comes at +39 seconds.
It’s a CLEAR view of OPS2 Paul Musser standing there in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot just beyond Prescott National Forest ( PNF ) employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
Notice Musser’s black-strap and the yellow side-stripes and the logo on his WHITE helmet, the shape of his moustache, the ‘orange tag’ over his right shirt pocket, and the Bendix-King radio with the red battery clamshell in his RIGHT hand…
Photo caption: M2u00264 frame 2 medium
Photo filename: M2U00264-frame-2-medium.jpg 16.2 KB
This next frame from Hulburd’s M2U00264 VIDEO comes at +1 minute and 59 seconds into the video.
Paul Musser has crossed BEHIND Aaron Hulburd and gotten into the single-cab dark-blue pickup that was already parked there behind Aaron Hulburd as he was filming and Musser is now ‘turning around’ in the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine. He heads WEST on Shrine Road for a moment with the apparent intention of asking KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell a question before he leaves. This video frame is the moment when OPS2 Paul Musser was actually shouting out from the driver’s seat to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell “Is that the last group?”
The video is too grainy for an absolute positive ID on Musser’s face… but notice the same WHITE helmet ( with black strap ) that Musser was seen wearing just moments before in this same M2U00264 video ( and shown in the other frame above ).
The round logo on the door of this single-cab dark-blue pickup is the standard Arizona Forestry logo, and the side of the bed of this pickup is where the larger, square “Arizona Incident Management Team” logo is located.
Photo caption: M2u00264 frame 3 medium
Photo filename: M2U00264-frame-3-medium.jpg 10.7 KB
And here is a comparison between the WHITE Helmet that OPS2 Paul Musser was wearing that day ( as seen in Hulburd’s M2U00264 video ) and the WHITE Helmet that SPGS1 Gary Cordes was wearing.
OPS2 Paul Musser is on the RIGHT down below, and on the LEFT is a closeup of SPGS1 Gary Cordes from one of Tom Story’s photos taken at the Ranch House Restaurant that day.
Notice the difference in their Mustaches.
Gary Cordes ( on the left ) had a larger mustache than Musser ( on the right ).
BOTH of them have a ‘black band’ on their WHITE helmets… but the LOGOS on their helmets are different and Gary
Cordes’ yellow stripes are clearer, brighter and not as ‘faded’ as the ones on OPS2 Paul Musser’s Helmet…
Photo caption: Cordes and musser white helmet comparison 1
Photo filename: Cordes-and-Musser-White-Helmet-Comparison-1.jpg 15.4 KB
——————————————————————
And another ‘test’ comment for this ‘ISSUE’ document over at “YHF Collaborative”.
Again… you won’t see any of the TEXT formatting or the PHOTOS that appear in this comment over there at “YHF Collaborative”…. but here is the TEXT part of the comment…
—————————————————————————————-
YHF COLLABORATIVE – ISSUE DOCUMENT
ISSUE: Which vehicle was OPS2 Paul Musser Driving?
*** COMMENT BY: WTKTT, WantsToKnowTheTruth
COMMENT TITLE: Photos of the ‘blue pickup’ taken at the Model Creek School ICP
* ICP PHOTO 1 – 11:59 AM
The following photo that was in the Arizona Forestry ‘Miscellaneous Photos’ folder of the original SAIT FOIA release shows that single-cab dark-blue pickup with the WHITE tailgate parked right outside the entrance to the Model Creek School ICP at 11:59 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
That single-cab dark-blue pickup is inside the RED CIRCLE in the photo below…
Photo caption: Img 20130630 115945 706 showing blue pickup at icp
Photo filename: IMG_20130630_115945_706-showing-blue-pickup-at-ICP.jpg 67.5 KB
Here is a CLOSEUP of the back of that single-cab dark-blue pickup with the WHITE tailgate as seen in the larger photo up above…
Photo caption: Azf photo of blue pickup at icp at 1159 am
Photo filename: AZF-photo-of-blue-pickup-at-ICP-at-1159-AM.jpg 42.3 KB
NOTE: This photo shows the LICENSE PLATE on the back of this single-cab dark-blue pickup. It is obviously a GOVERNMENT issue plate ( starting with a G and a SPACE ). It is all-white ( no Arizona logos ) with grey/black letters and seems to be one of the following license numbers…
“G (space) 309G0”
or possibly “G (space) 30960”
or possibly ?? something else ??
Here is a ‘sharpened’ closeup of the LICENSE PLATE and what the letters and numbers APPEAR to be…
Photo caption: Blue pickup license plate closeup
Photo filename: Blue-pickup-license-plate-closeup.jpg 54.8 KB
——————————————————————————-
WHOOSH!!!
Coming into this late. My life is pretty intense right now.
THANK YOU WTKTT!
I’m starting to see what you are seeing. I have some differences in details, especially regarding what you are saying re Gary Cordes. I still think the guy seen thru the windshield of the BRHS UTV is Paul Musser and not Gary Cordes. And I still think Paul Musser, and not Gary Cordes, is one of the two seen in white helmets over the hood of the white truck with the Incident Command Team decal on it (and I’m still mystified as to who was driving that). And I think, all things considered, Tony Sciacca is the other. I still think Gary Cordes is the one “hanging out with” Cougan Carothers.
But, yeah, I’m now seeing what you are seeing regarding that possibly being Paul Musser driving the blue truck in the video.
If that is Paul Musser driving that blue truck, that would then mean that it isn’t him driving that truck that dropped off Cory Ball at the Yarnell Fire Department. Maybe it actually was Gary Cordes?
So many quickly moving parts in all of this.
I don’t, realistically, think I will be able to make it to Sitta’s site until after the beginning of January, all things considered. I’m really wrapped up in dealing with stuff having to do with my family’s trust and estate before Dec. 31.
And thanks for, upstream, not thinking I’m insane regarding what I saw that I thought was Chris’s camera on the Deployment Site.
If Paul Musser was driving the blue truck, that might indicate that that is him (and not, as I have previously thought Tony Sciacca) standing there in the 4:17 video, between the blue truck and Gary Cordes sitting in his truck, with Cougan Carothers to the side and someone from the helitack crew walking away, during that conversation that led into “waz yo status?”
PS What do you think of that photo, IMG_20130630_141459_148.jpg taken up near the ICP. Do you think that is Paul Musser in that? That photo has stumped me, since I thought Rance was driving that truck and, obviously Rance was not that person
The guy in that photo has a black short-sleeved shirt on, which is not how we see Musser later. So, maybe it’s still some random person. (thinking out loud).
Again I say, so many moving parts. Hard to do this on the fly.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 21, 2015 at 9:42 pm
>> Marti Reed said…
>>
>> I’m starting to see what you are seeing. I have some differences
>> in details, especially regarding what you are saying re Gary
>> Cordes. I still think the guy seen thru the windshield of the BRHS
>> UTV is Paul Musser and not Gary Cordes.
Over in that “YHF Collaborative” TEST ‘ISSUE document’ is a full-closeup side-by-side comparison of the known ‘head-and-shoulders’ shots of OPS2 Paul Musser and the similar ‘head-and-shoulders’ shot of whoever that is seen there through the rear grate of the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger.
The HELMETS are different.
Same ‘black strap’ on the visor of the Helmets, but the LOGOS are different and the ‘mustaches’ seem to also be ‘different’.
Problem there is that in these Tom Story photos… that ‘Blue Truck’ is definitely already there at the northwest corner of the RHR parking lot, parked heading ‘north’ as if Musser approached the RHR from the SOUTH ( like, perhaps, after he had just been down Lakewood Drive but returned to the RHR ).
So now we have BOTH Gary Cordes’ and Paul Musser’s vehicles there in the RHR parking lot in the same timeframe as both the Tom Story photos and the “Russ Reason” video.
But if you look at those ‘side-by-side’ head and shoulder shots in the “YHF Collaborative” ISSUE document… I’d still say it’s pretty safe to say the guy seen through the BR Polaris grate is NOT Paul Musser, and is, in fact, Gary Cordes.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And I still think Paul Musser, and not Gary Cordes, is one of the
>> two seen in white helmets over the hood of the white truck with
>> the Incident Command Team decal on it (and I’m still mystified
>> as to who was driving that). And I think, all things considered,
>>
>> Tony Sciacca is the other. I still think Gary Cordes is the
>> one “hanging out with” Cougan Carothers.
See above. We now seem to have proof they were BOTH there in RHR parking lot in the same timeframe(s). So it’s still hard to be sure ‘which WHITE helmet ( and mustache ) is who’.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> But, yeah, I’m now seeing what you are seeing regarding that
>> possibly being Paul Musser driving the blue truck in the video.
>>
>> If that is Paul Musser driving that blue truck, that would then
>> mean that it isn’t him driving that truck that dropped off Cory
>> Ball at the Yarnell Fire Department.
Yes.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Maybe it actually was Gary Cordes?
I doubt it. Since Joy provided that new picture ‘Lechner’ photo of Gary Cordes only heading into Yarnell proper and heading for the RHR circa 4:45 PM… doesn’t look like it was possible for him to have been in Yarnell schlepping anyone around.prior to that time.
So that brings yet another ‘mystery person’ into the mix that must have known why they were bringing Cory Ball to the Yarnell Fire Station and why ( all of a sudden ) it was so dang important for Cory Ball to be needing his own ATV to go do some ‘scouting’.
In other words… ANOTHER person who must have been aware of this last-minute ‘scouting’ attempt and/or the ‘Hail Mary’ plan.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I don’t, realistically, think I will be able to make it to Sitta’s site
>> until after the beginning of January, all things considered. I’m
>> really wrapped up in dealing with stuff having to do with my
>> family’s trust and estate before Dec. 31.
One of the big DRAWBACKS Sitta and I discovered is that while this “YHF Collaborative” site DOES allow you to upload pictures and videos and reference them directly in your comments there ( like DailyKos articles )… it’s also ‘protecting’ the photos and videos behind a LOGIN.
In other words… I can’t even just post a link to all the photos I uploaded there showing the side-by-side headshots of Musser and Cordes and the closeups of the license plate.
That ‘Basecamp’ software still won’t just allow ‘free range posting’ of links to the things that are uploaded. It will still divert to a LOGIN screen if you just post links to the photos.
So, for now, some of the more interesting ‘photos’ trying to explain what I’m saying here are only available when logged into the “YHF Collaborative” thing.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And thanks for, upstream, not thinking I’m insane regarding
>> what I saw that I thought was Chris’s camera on the
>> Deployment Site.
There was a CONSENSUS regarding that. There was AGREEMENT that that was most likely what it was and it STILL might be a camera of some kind. Even ANOTHER Canon Camera that, itself, never found its way into evidence.
I’m just going to say now that given the NEW evidence ( thanks to Mr. John Dougherty ), I don’t know WHAT that object is. Needs another good looking at and review ( like lots of things as more and more evidence emerges ).
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> If Paul Musser was driving the blue truck, that might indicate that
>> that is him (and not, as I have previously thought Tony Sciacca)
>> standing there in the 4:17 video, between the blue truck and
>> Gary Cordes sitting in his truck, with Cougan Carothers to the
>> side and someone from the helitack crew walking away, during
>> that conversation that led into “waz yo status?”
Again… this got covered over there in that TEST “ISSUE document” at “YHF Collaborative”.
It DOES appear to be Tony Sciacca seen standing there ( outside any vehicle ) in his WHITE helmet, incuding that little brown strap on his shirt collar.
It still matches Sciacca’s own testimony that that is where he was at that time.
My best guess at this point is that Yes… that really is Sciacca there in that white helmet… but Musser might have been INSIDE Cordes’ vehicle and that’s where this known ‘discussing their own options’ conversation took place.
By the way… it appears ( after other close examination ) that Jake Guadiana had the time on his camera set about 10 minutes ahead of REAL time that day.
If you match his photos and videos from over at the ICP of the fire approaching that group of vehicles with other Smartphone-based photos taken of the same event… Guadiana’s timestamps come out about 10 minutes ahead of when it was actually happening.
So that ‘roadside video’ MAY have been taken more like 4:07 PM than 4:17 PM.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> PS What do you think of that photo, IMG_20130630_141459_148.jpg taken
>> up near the ICP. Do you think that is Paul Musser in that?
No. Again… this is covered over in that “YHF Collaborative” ISSUE document complete with side-by-side closeup photos of Musser from Hulburd’s M2U00264 video and that person standing at the back of the ‘Blue Truck’.
Sitta and I worked this one together and ‘compared the photos’.
We are BOTH seeing differences like different PANTS, BELT… different WAIST measurements, and different BOOT between whoever is standing there at the back of that Blue truck by the ICP and the known good ‘full body’ glimpses of Musser in the M2U00264 video.
I don’t know who that is. I also doubt it could be Byron Kimball… but that dark-blue shirt is no accident. That’s the ‘dark-blue’ used for “Arizona Incident Management Team” members. ( Also why I don’t think the dark-blue of the pickup truck itself is any accident ).
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> That photo has stumped me, since I thought Rance was driving
>> that truck and, obviously Rance was not that person
>>
>> The guy in that photo has a black short-sleeved shirt on, which
>> is not how we see Musser later. So, maybe it’s still some random
>> person. (thinking out loud).
Here’s the TEXT of the comment over at “YHF Collaborative” about this ‘mystery guy’ at the back of the dark-blue pickup when it was parked up at the ICP ISSUE: Which vehicle was Paul Musser driving?
COMMENT: Person standing at back of blue pickup truck up at the ICP
https://3.basecamp.com/3118669/buckets/82009/documents/19421268
————————————————————–
* ICP PHOTO 2 – 2:14 PM
The following photograph was taken at 1414 ( 2:14 PM ) up at the Model Creek Elementary School in Peeples Valley. The school was being used as the Incident Command Post ( ICP ) on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
It clearly shows this single-cab dark-blue pickup parked there outside the ICP.
It also clearly shows that this pickup had a WHITE tailgate.
The person seen standing at the rear of the vehicle does NOT appear to be Paul Musser and he remains unidentified.
Photo caption: Adosh photos and videos miscellaneous img 20130630 141459 148 medium size
Photo filename: ADOSH-Photos-and-Videos-Miscellaneous-IMG_20130630_141459_148-medium-size.jpg 46.7 KB
Here is a CLOSEUP of the person seen standing at the rear of the vehicle…
Photo Caption: Person standing at back of blue pickup
Photo Filename: Person-standing-at-back-of-blue-pickup.jpg 38.7 KB
An argument might be made that this really could be Paul Musser standing at the back of his dark-blue pickup circa 2:14 PM and before he became actively engaged in the fire as the second fully functioning ‘Field OPS’ that day… and that he simply had not put on his yellow Nomex shirt and WHITE Helmet yet.
Here is a ‘comparison’ of Paul Musser seen standing in the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine on Shrine Road later in the afternoon and this person seen standing at the back of the blue pickup circa 2:14 PM up at the ICP.
There ARE similarities between the two men, but Musser appears to have been wider around the waist and there are other differences such as the hair, the belts, the pants and the boots.
Photo Caption: Comparison between musser and person at back of blue pickup at icp
Photo Filename: Comparison-between-Musser-and-person-at-back-of-blue-pickup-at-ICP.jpg 30.5 KB
TEXT from the photo…
Different Belts
Different GIRTHS ( Waistlines )
Cargo pants versus no cargo pants.
Different boots.
———————————————-
Thanks, WWTKTT
I can’t get on to the site. How do I do that again?
I know Sitta posted the directions, but that was WAY downstream.
Heh I hadn’t seen that photograph of the truck. I guess there’s a lot more stuff in that folder than there used to be.
Well, I emailed “[email protected]” as I think sitta invited us to do, but I haven’t heard anything back, so I still can’t look at your images, WTKTT.
Am I missing something?
Typo.
I emailed “[email protected]
Marti… that’s the same email address I used to just send an email to Sitta when first requested ( the email didn’t need anything in it… it was just whatever email I wanted to use as a username to join to this Basecamp.
Next thing I knew I got this ‘Reply’ from the ‘Basecamp’ thing the moment Sitta added me as a user with that same email address…
——————————————————-
Sitta added you to a Basecamp:
YHF Collaborative
Basecamp’s a place that helps everyone stay organized and on the same page. It’s really straightforward and easy! To join Sitta, click this button:
BUTTON ( Join Sitta in Basecamp )
—————————————————-
I clicked the BUTTON up above and I was then immediately taken to a page for my new Basecamp profile and was able to customize it.
So all Sitta needed was an ’email’ address to use.
Did you ever send that original ’email’ invite?
Your NAME ( Marti ) is already showing as a USER there at this ‘Basecamp’.
Weird.
I didn’t get a response from Sitta and it is recognizing neither my email address or “Marti.”
This is frustrating.
Could I borrow yours?
I’ll email you.
I really want to look at this stuff.
And I’d really like to look at it this weekend because next week is going to be insanely busy for me.
Thx.
Wanted to bring this to the Top To answer
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-319726
WTKTT
Check the above request you made to me it was down so far I brought it up here.
I did. Thank you.
Obviously this is still HUGE and could represent the absolute best chance at solving many of the remaining mysteries.
The most fascinating part of this story remains the mention that the reason a family member might have this video is because they received it in real time that afternoon, probably as an attachment to an email or text message, just PRIOR to the tragedy.
I’m still not asking you to break any promises you made or violate any confidences… but I do have more questions you might be able to answer without doing so.
Here’s just a few…
1. Did you get any impression, or even direct information, from your source that the ‘family member’ who is actually in possession of this video was AWARE that this ‘source’ was contacting YOU and telling you about it?
2. Did you get the impression, or any direct information from this ‘source’ that they, tthemselves, had actually SEEN this video… or that the ‘source’ was only reporting what they had Benn told the video contains?
3. Did you get the impression. or even direct information from your source that there wwould be any circumstances whereby this family member would ever admit to having this video and get it to the proper authorities without being forced to do so? Such as ( perhaps? ) after the cessation of all litigation?
WWTKTT-
to answer your ADOSH question—recently we went to give ADOSH information and this was the reply—
so any new information is denied by the ones who investigated this professionally due to time limitations-
see:
Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:00 PM
Sonny/Joy,
ADOSH cannot reopen this case. We have one shot at it, and the case must be submitted within the first 6 months.
Sorry,
Brett
WTKTT
#1———Not sure I think the person was close to the family only because of what he told me. Again I had no name and did not save the Phone # as requested. When I make a promise I keep it and unless they call back I have no contact.
#2 –They had seen and heard the Argument on the Audio/video.
They also said that there was one or more people on the fire who
had heard the conversation on the radio yes it was crew net.
#3—- I got the impression it was being held for the litigation/trial.
I believe this to be the same info that McDonough had from crew net and what he passed on to Willis. I believe he told Willis because he knew there was more people that heard the conversation and possibly the Video/Audio.
We know two things
Dudley stated there was information out there of the Argument.
The City Attorney gave a release to the News on the info he got from Willis. And noted what was told to Willis was important enough to rush to Phoenix to the AG Office.
Will we ever see or hear that Video/Audio taken on a cellphone???????
Or maybe a Video camera ?????
I still believe there are others besides McDonough who heard the Argument. Probably BR Drivers maybe someone else who had GM Crew Net.
Bob and WTKTT,
There was also those listening to the GMHS Crew Net based on Willis’ News Conference statements: “… WE were able to monitor the radio frequencies” and knew they had finished their assignment and were heading south to the BSR structures (paraphrasing outside quotes).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1lBgicPq5A (Part 1) Part 2 is a separate link
And there are also those that have heard the GMHS Crew Net “discussing our options” on the UNCUT Helmet Cam video/audio to consider.
There are also other PFD employees that heard the GMHS Crew Net “discussing our options” conversation as well.
Lots and Lots of info to be put forth just takes one to open the flood gates.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on December 21, 2015 at 5:06 pm
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And there are also those that have heard
>> the GMHS Crew Net “discussing our options”
>> on the UNCUT Helmet Cam video/audio
>> to consider.
>>
>> There are also other PFD employees that heard
>> the GMHS Crew Net “discussing our
>> options” conversation as well.
I’d always thought there was a good chance that this mysterious ‘video/audio’ of the argument that supposedly exists might have been one of these persons you now mention having recorded it themselves while monitoring the GM Crew Net. ( as in… one of the 3 BR crewmen who was sitting in one of the other 3 GM Crew vehicles ).
But now that doesn’t match what Bob Powers seems to be saying.
He seems to be saying that the video that supposedly exists was shot by one of the GM Crew, and then ‘texted’ or ’emailed’ out to family member BEFORE the tragedy.
That means that instead of it being just a ‘Crew Net’ radio capture… we might actually he hearing Jesse Steed talking to Marsh in ‘real time’ ( with the camera actually close to him and capturing his non-radio modulated voice ) similar to those two 9 second video clips MacKenzie shot.
And like those MacKenzie videos… we might ALSO be hearing some ‘comments from the crew’ in the foreground, in-between radio transmits between Marsh and Steed.
There could be a WEALTH of information about how the CREW itself felt about this ‘decision making’ process and what Eric Marsh was trying to convince them to do.
I’m having a difficult time believing this ‘other video’ might have been a ‘missing’ MacKenzie video, because there is no evidence MacKenzie was making any attempt to ‘send’ anyone anything in real time that day, and there is no solid evidence ( yet? ) that anything is ‘missing’ from what was eventually released and attributed to MacKenzie.
I’m thinking this ‘other video’ might have been shot by someone like Parker… who WAS known to be in the habit of ‘texting out’ photos and messages to family members the moment after he took them.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> There was also those listening to the GMHS Crew
>> Net based on Willis’ News Conference
>> statements: “… WE were able to monitor the
>> radio frequencies” and knew they had finished
>> their assignment and were heading south to
>> the BSR structures (paraphrasing outside quotes).
Which has always been a confusing statement because Granite Mountain NEVER ‘finished their assignment’ at all.
Steed had told Frisby circa 3:30 PM that they needed at least another hour to finish what they were doing… but Frisby already knew they didn’t HAVE another hour. Granite Mountain went ‘tools up’ and abandoned what they were doing just minutes after that conversation and that’s when they all began assembling in that ‘final rest spot’ where all the photos / videos would be taken.
There’s even what seems to be a real-time radio capture from that day of Brian Frisby himself INFORMING someone that “Granite Mountain didn’t complete the work they were doing”.
Here’s a link to the complete post about this way back in Chapter 10 entitled…
** VOICES IN THE STATIC – HULBURD VIDEO M2U00264
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/#comment-208941
Here’s just part of that posting…
—————————————-
THIS one is that loud HUM followed by that ‘voice in the static’ heard in Aaron Hulburd’s video M2U00264.
This is the transmission that took place just prior to the first MAYDAY call from Jesse Steed where both KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd say ( during the transmission ) that they are sure it is coming from either Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed.
Aaron Hulburd says ( during the transmission ): “That’s gotta be… Eric or Jesse.”
Then KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell immediately replies with: “That’s gotta be them, yea.”
That does NOT appear to be the case.
I’m not hearing a voice match for either Marsh or Steed. Not really…
…but the transmission DOES contain a conversation ( coming from SOMEONE? Brian Frisby? ) first about them ( Granite Mountain ) not needing to do something because they didn’t finish the work they were doing… and then about how they were told to ‘pick it up and monitor the weather’.
What is actually being said inside that static appears to be this…
——————————————————————————-
Because they didn’t need to. They didn’t complete the work that..
uh… they was doin’ this morning… then they got directed to pick
it up and monitor the weather.
——————————————————————————-
It is not clear WHO this person was talking TO ( since the radio only locked onto the channel in mid-conversation ).. but if I had to venture a ‘good guess’ who the one who is reporting to someone about Granite Mountain is… I would say it’s a very close VOICE MATCH for Blue Ridge SUP Brian Frisby.
This HUM and STATIC ( with conversation in it ) comes just after SPGS1 Gary Cordes has instructed TFLD2(t) Tyson Esquibel to send at least one Engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch… and to tell that ‘Engine’ to get with Granite Mountain there and make sure they get out safely.
————————————————-
“They were told to pick it up and monitor the weather”.
If that’s what’s really being said..;. then there’ little doubt this was a reference to Granite Mountain and someone talking about overhearing the radio como between OPS1 Todd Abel and DIVSA Marsh as well.
This is exactly what Todd Abel said the nature of one of his late afternoon radio calls was about. “The Weather”.
WTKTT,
Thanks for the very detailed explanation.
You posted: “I’d always thought there was a good chance that this mysterious ‘video/audio’ of the argument that supposedly exists might have been one of these persons you now mention having recorded it themselves while monitoring the GM Crew Net. ( as in… one of the 3 BR crewmen who was sitting in one of the other 3 GM Crew vehicles ).”
I’m NOT so sure on this one. The BRHS that were driving the GMHS crew carriers would likely NOT have been monitoring the GMHS Crew Net at that time. There was NO need to, everything was fine – they were “in the black” and everyone knew it. The BRHS Crewmembers would certainly have been monitoring their own Crew Net as well as Command, various Tactical channels, and A/G.
Regarding the GMHS Crew Net conversation, you posted: “That means that instead of it being just a ‘Crew Net’ radio capture… we might actually he hearing Jesse Steed talking to Marsh in ‘real time’ ( with the camera actually close to him and capturing his non-radio modulated voice ) similar to those two 9 second video clips MacKenzie shot.”
The ‘real time’ conversation between Steed and Marsh would have still been over the GMHS Crew Net because the GMHS and Steed were up high, in the black and Marsh was down low at/near the BSR.
Right?
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 22, 2015 at 10:22 am
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I’m NOT so sure on this one. The BRHS
>> that were driving the GMHS crew carriers
>> would likely NOT have been monitoring
>> the GMHS Crew Net at that time.
I think you’re looking at it like they ( the BR crew tasked with driving the vehicles ) would have needed the GM Crew Net frequency punched into their own radios and ‘selected’ as part of the ‘scan bank’ in order to be ‘monitoring the GM Crew Net’.
That is NOT the case. I think we’ve already established that the moment those Blue Ridge Crewmen got into those 3 other GM vehicles and started them up… the GM Crew Net was probably immediately broadcasting over the priority channel on the truck’s own radio.
So they could have been doing BOTH.
Listening to their own handhelds ( if they even had them? ) AND listening to the radio in the truck.
But I hear ya. It was not the BR crew’s JOB to be listening to some other Hothsot team’s crew net. Even if they were just sitting in the trucks listening to it they might have found it annoying and switched it OFF.
Only some full and honest testimony from these 3 Blue Ridge crewman ( soneday ) will tell the real story there.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Regarding the GMHS Crew Net conversation,
>> you posted: “That means that instead of it
>> being just a ‘Crew Net’ radio capture… we
>> might actually he hearing Jesse Steed
>> talking to Marsh in ‘real time’ ( with the
>> camera actually close to him and
>> capturing his non-radio modulated voice )
>> similar to those two 9 second video clips
>> MacKenzie shot.”
>>
>> The ‘real time’ conversation between Steed
>> and Marsh would have still been over the
>> GMHS Crew Net because the GMHS and
>> Steed were up high, in the black and
>> Marsh was down low at/near the BSR.
>>
>> Right?
Yes. That;’s right.
I though I explained what I meant but let me try again.
If Bob powers is RIGHT, and this mysterious video that supposedly captures the ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed WAS shot by one of the GM crew… then it will probably resemble the two 9 second clips we DO have that were shot by MacKenzie.
We will probably HEAR ( and SEE ) Jesse Steed talking to Marsh over the Crew Net… but we will be able to hear Jesse’s REAL voice as he, himself, is talking into the radio… just like we hear ( and see ) in the MacKenzie clips.
And in-between the ‘transmits’… we might ALSO be hearing the other GM crew ‘comment’ on this conversation in real-time… just like we hear them ‘commenting’ ( and laughing and spitting on the ground ) in the MacKenzie clips.
WTKTT,
Okay, a little clearer to me with that.
However – everyone KNEW the GMHS were in ‘the black; safe and sound, so only those already monitoring the GMHS Crew Net were privy to what they were talking about, ‘discussing our option’ and Marsh and Steed arguing about it.
Therefore, there was NO reason for the BRHS to be monitoring the GMHS Crew Net in the GMHS Crew Carriers. With the flip of a switch that channel is silenced. Done – now they can concentrate on all the other stuff going on, and there was plenty.
Maybe AFTER everyone realized that the GMHS had f**ked up by leaving their perfectly good SZ at the worst possible time and headed downhill through heavy unburned fuel in chutes and chimneys, and ultimately into their death trap in the BOWL – THEN MAYBE the BRHS guys started monitoring the GMHS Crew Net. But up until they aware aware of their predicament, I think not.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
post on December 22, 2015 at 12:23 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> everyone KNEW the GMHS were
>> in ‘the black; safe and sound, so
>> only those already monitoring the
>> GMHS Crew Net were privy to
>> what they were talking about,
>> ‘discussing our option’ and Marsh
>> and Steed arguing about it.
I replied to this with a new parent comment up above… which is here…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-320263
I know you already found it but if anyone else wants to jump to the continuation of this conversation just click the link above.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Therefore, there was NO reason for
>> the BRHS to be monitoring the
>> GMHS Crew Net in the GMHS
>> Crew Carriers. With the flip of a
>> switch that channel is silenced.
>> Done – now they can concentrate
>> on all the other stuff going on, and
>> there was plenty.
RTS… there is TESTIMONY that not only was one of the Blue Ridge crew tasked with driving the other three GM listening to the GM CREW CHANNEL… they were actually USING it to communicate with Eric Marsh about where they were taking the vehicles and whatnot.
See this other post up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-320328
WTKTT,
I think the only BRHS monitoring the GMHS Crew Net while driving around to was True Brown, driving the GMHS Chase (Supt?) truck with McDonough.
So, I’m NOT sure who you refer to when you say “THEY.”
Joy… if you are referring to the Holly Neill and ADOSH correspondence reprinted below… Ms. Neill did not seem to be asking ADOSH to actually ‘reopen the case’ in that email she sent them a full MONTH after they had released their report and their findings of negligence in that workplace and the accompanying citations and fines.
I believe what Ms. Neill was asking them was if they still had the ability to issue an ‘addendum’ to the public documents. Ms. Neill seemed to believe that what she thought she was hearing in a background radio capture would somehow ‘exonerate’ Eric Marsh ( and Steed and the crew ) from even any suggestion of ‘wrongdoig’ and it seemed to be her intent to try to get the ADOSH report to be ‘ammended’ to that effect.
We don’t actually see ADOSH’s official (final) response to Ms Neill… but we DO see that even a MONTH after releasing their report they were still perfectly willing to receive whatever this ‘new information’ was and they DID have their own experts review the ‘new evidence’.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
December 21, 2015 at 4:46 pm
Joy… if you are referring to the Holly Neill and ADOSH correspondence reprinted below… Ms. Neill did not seem to be asking ADOSH to actually ‘reopen the case’ in that email she sent them a full MONTH after they had released their report and their findings of negligence in that workplace and the accompanying citations and fines.
NO WE SENT NEW INFORMATION TO ADOSH NOT HOLLY- AND THAT WAS BRETT’S REPLY ABOVE-
We went to the event THE FENCE private party and it was beautiful—
all of it from fine food and fine company but wish Chelsea and Melody could of been there- Chelsea was amazing in THE FENCE..
Right when we arrived my mother informed me my father died-
So I will be off InvestigativeMedia this week to handle that as I am the main person to handle all that area—so Merry Christmas everyone.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
December 21, 2015 at 9:55 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> NO WE SENT NEW INFORMATION TO
>> ADOSH NOT HOLLY- AND THAT WAS
>> BRETT’S REPLY ABOVE-
Ah… okay. I see. Thanks for the reply.
I’m not sure it’s EVER happened that ADOSH ended up reopening any investigation after completing it.
I’m also sure the SETTLEMENT with just those GM family members using Patrick McGroder as attorney would prevent anything like that from ever happening.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> Right when we arrived my mother informed
>> me my father died- So I will be off InvestigativeMedia
>> this week to handle that as I am the main person
>> to handle all that area—so Merry Christmas everyone.
That’s terrible news, Joy.
So sorry for you and your entire family.
My sincere condolences to you ( and your family ).
awaiting Sonny to wake up— finally arrived—teeth day for him—so since I have a few minutes before my day gets jam packed—let me share—
Well Thanksgiving week on my visit with my father it was like I was a child again or 11/12 age and it was my best visit because normally I had either over the decades my husband or Sonny present but my last visit Sonny was in Phnx VA hospital so I was able to visit alone and it was my top memory in decades with my pops—
I had sold off some assets again to help a certain person with the aftermath of the YHF and to help another family who lost their father and did not have immediate resources to make it to proper arrangements. I had to sell some way under market value due to timing and stuff I really did not want to but my heart laid heavy in doing that asap (it was not massage fund kind of letting go either—I let go of stuff I loved this time but still just possessions)
that person called me during visit with my father and when he heard that person talk to me—it made him weep.
“That’s my girl.”
and when I showed my father my personal behind the scenes photos of my hikes he thought it was special because in the start of my http://www.zazzle.com/Congress_arizona* I would show EVERYTHING from my hike until one day a local hunter said thank you for saving the beautiful bobcat and I said you are welcome just to have hunter tell me it made him a nice taxidermy sale— he trapped and killed it. I had to stop placing certain birds, badger, mountain lion, javelina, deer and bobcat photos on my hiking page because locally it became a gps hit to the hunters. I learned in the aftermath of the YHF and my hiking page it is very hard to be pure in this modern world and share my life as it happens yet I do my best to be that person.
The recent news that Marsh had one cell phone makes me want to meet with original person who told us Marsh had more than one type of communication on him- I actually believe the recent news of the one cell phone yet it contradicts a person who knows a lot behind the scenes in purity to this YHF- so it needs more research.
Gary- my father was a Leo and I read some of your posts to him last visit and he wanted me to tell you and it slipped my mind that he was proud to see a fellow Leo being the strong one in this blog area but I would say bold and outright out of my way of thinking and doing and my father would say from the kid who talks with no ending; right…ok.
My father had the thickest NY accent from Staten Island—stood a giant—almost leaping to seven feet tall—he was my tower—and yet this NYer was one of the men who spent a lot of his youth and years building the Twin Towers and losing loved ones and those towers- he was never the same since—he had lung cancer and the lung removed and yet smoked one after the other—I am having autopsy performed as he died in his sleep and I want more facts than family’s’ perception being its my pops but my mother gave a good assessment of how and why he died but curious being I am having my own very serious health concerns and I am his kid and it seems we share a liked dna of poor health- I have the power to request it and I plan on doing it for my own peace-
Last visit I predicted in 3.5 weeks he would die as I told my uncle that day when I last saw my dad and it’s what happened—I want to share that God has led to me the dying so I know what near death and death looks like and that is what my father looked like on last visit so this was no surprise to me- especially the fact when he was very low income and sent my brother and I funds with a note and he never done that in his entire life but he sent me funds to get my six shooter engraved DESERT WALKER and a dvd to respark me to get back into my fast gunslinging Annie Oakley ways versus living my life for others—just go out and do what I do best and that is desert walk and share Jesus-
My father was always embarrassed as a married woman I started trailing with an ol miner/logger/cowboy— he said that was not his daughter but someone else’s kid–in his thick heavy NY accent he would tell Sonny you take care of my daughter or I will kill you and maybe that tower of a giant’s words sat heavy on Sonny’s mind that 6-30-13 and why he came back for me. He did have a serious mafia tone about him…My father wants to be remembered whole and as a hero for the lives he saved when he was employed under Sheriff Joe Arpaio…
I love you daddy
https://plus.google.com/photos/112068160404980104272/album/5911726150683632913/5911726705545533538
and for you children affected by the YHF not just ones who knew the men but here locally who since lost their daddy too—I will always remain in getting clarity to this fire…
REMEMBERING OUR DADDIES THIS HOLIDAY-
Bob Power’s too…
Again thank you for having an open free area to share my joys and pains and the YHF…
Merry Christmas-
even to us heart heavier ones
also one more thing—
if you are unhealthy or of weight just remember it begins with one foot in front of the other—
and when you see you can’t go too far- that is okay.
Each time you will get stronger.
but it all cores to ONE FOOT IN FRONT OF THE OTHER not laying in bed or on a couch…or reading I M all day.
xoxo,
The Desert Walker
Joy. My bestest to you and your family. I’m so sorry to hear this.
I’m sitting here in this “time-window” of:
Thanksgiving
My birthday (Nov 25)
My dad died (November 29)
Winter Solstice
Christmas
My brother’s birthday (December 29)
New Years
My brother died (January 5)
My mom died (February 4)
Valentines Day
My daughter’s birthday (February 19)
And yes, one foot in front of the other. You are my inspiration.
My mom was the Leo. My dad was Libra. I’m on the cusp of Scorpio and Sagittarius. My daughter is REALLY on the cusp (as in hours) of Aquarius/Pisces.
Namaste and take good care of yourself!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c75JUb3pKpY
go to about minute and eight seconds-
just relistening to this and the man says THEY DID GET A HOLD OF ERIC AND HE IS THE ONE WHO FINALLY TOLD THEM THAT THEY WERE PREPARING FOR A DEPLOYMENT SITE AND THAT HE WOULD CALL THEM …PROBABLY IN THEIR SHELTERS RIGHT NOW— THEY ARE IN HERE—RIGHT HERE AS THE ONE MAN SAYS “WHY?”
this video was stated to be made at 16:50 June 30, 2013 on one point he states it on there.
how did they get a hold of Eric?
To my humble opinion there is more information Blue Ridge is required to share on this fire to properly assess the fire—the man that Jason was removing from the area was none other but suicide hiker Mark Danielson—could Mark have provided IMPORTANT details to this YHF—I am awaiting my FOIA from YCSO cold case investigator Paul Chastain on the update for locals on Mark and as well as another recent suicide for neighboring lady wanted that update—what did these innocent bystanders know—I can tell you this; Cindy who had important photos has since died and her sister does not even realize the photos she has is from Friday night (the quads)—both our health are more failing after this fire—I don’t know—maybe Sonny is right—maybe there is these Gods and Goddess he talks about since day one of knowing him. When we were just pen pals he would mail me books on Sumerian tablets and libraries that existed of thousands of years before the bible and my closed mind thinking kept it in the bathroom and eventually took it on my desert trails and really read them and thought how closed minded I really was to the Universe of things…many of the tablets give stories that are later paralleled in the Bible—refer to historian Sitchen if interested in the old Sumerian tablets. Sonny has such a depth in his knowledge of religion that I use to really get offended alot when he said “Jesus loves me when I can find a brand new bottle and flask of Crown royal amongst the desert—Crown of all things—like Jesus/Crown” and yet it is true that I saw it with my own eyes- I rid of his whiskey one night threw it so hard against a boulder and Sonny did not care just thought crazy white Indian woman and walked off and there it was in the desert —CROWN ROYAL sealed and delivered so who else who do that for Sonny but Jesus…so another area I always got offended in these saloons he would say I got drunk with Jesus…
Religon is a such a sensitive topic it seems but Sonny makes it seem so vast and Universal-like and he is so in tune with his Irish Gods but more so his Goddess especially Danu and Latis who is the Goddess of beer and water-
Anyways enough on the topic but it is unusual how we all perceive our faith—
Yet I never judge for my simplicity ways may be not enough—maybe I haven’t opened doors I need to—
http://www.zazzle.com/ brian_whoah_postcard-239666264174600538
The religious aspect: Whew, some gal at the legion said Sonny is definitely a warlock–no one could survive four heart attacks have six stents applied and still look as good as he does. Christianity does use the Irish Goddess Eorstre for its Easter sunrise service, They just do not realize they are honoring that Irish Goddess. Well I don’t mind they do that. Some of our Irish Goddess are good at shape shifting–something we see some of the presidents do. Watch out for the crow–we saw more than the normal amount of crows and squirrels the day of the loss of the 19. Any good Indian will tell you seeing too many crows is a bad omen. Maybe they will tell us what too many squirrels means.
My sister is a Mormon, a religion offspring of the Masonic faith. Joe Smith was a 33 degree and well impressed by Moroni the fellow who channeled him well. I personally don’t jive with any organized religion or sect but to each his own. I have seen some strange things and would be the last person to tell you which Goddess to invoke or God or Gods to use or not use. About the time you think you know something about religion and things of the other side new discoveries will perhaps open a closed mind. The Psychic medium called us the other night and so many of the things she had said before like they had been delayed because of injuries seems to be verified by the autopsy reports after all. She had mentioned also someone with grey rimmed glasses had a big part in all this. I looked at lots of photos and there is Dan Frejole with grey rimmed glasses in a photo. Who else has grey rims? That was early on and this lady is afar off in another state and at that time had not any knowledge of the 19 disaster until we asked her if she would give it a go. It does appear certain people have a knack for those sorts of things. For instance those church fathers that wear squares on their underwear are said to be saints and a common ass such as myself would not be allowed into their underground secret chamber ( I might taint it). Also a woman or black would be suspect–but you know what–I am happy as a lark not to go there. And what they have I don’t want any more than they want what I have. If you don’t like my Irish Goddesses and a few Gods, let it be so. I am sure they are as unconcerned and I am. You can’t convert me to Christianity since I was converted long ago except I see the money grubbers that use it so they don’t have to do a decent days work to make a living. Brother Jesus and I have had a few good drinks together and may the devil and bad asses run the other way. Liars, Cheats, and Deceivers as we see in the Yarnell investigations –what should we do? What damage do they do in the long run? That is up to the Goddess of Justice and where they lie on the scales. Live and let live and may Karma do her job.
http://www.zazzle.com/sonny_got_drunk_with_jesus_postcard-239966207372417289
Chastise me all day…im ok with it…jesus is in my blood…God judges not me.
I will say it when I was seven and had no clue what it means and I will say it almost 44 yrs old and still not really have a pure clue what it means because the God loving people God led me were corrupt/tarnished from my ever having that pure connection and that is — JESUS IS MY SAVIOR! — it is a juggle for my life yet I KNOW this JESUS is in MY blood and I would not be here today if He wasn’t—I leaned on Him alot in my life versus people….
AMEN to RTS for taking the time to show WWTKTT how many times God is used on IM—
37 times its mentioned in the bible
see:
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Chastisement
Robert the Second says
December 20, 2015 at 10:47 am
WTKTT,
I did a quick search for the “God” word and who posted it in both Chapters XVII and XVIII and found the following:
“God” was posted 47 times in Chapter XVII and 36 times in Chapter XVIII, by the following posters in both chapters, in descending order:
(XVII) Sonny + Gary + Joy + WTKTT + RTS + Bob
(XVIII) Gary + Sonny + WTKTT + Joy + Woodsman + RTS + Bob
So, it is very clear to me that I was the only one chastised and/or warned by you. Sonny, Joy, and Gary mention “God’s” name many more times than any of us, yet they received no such chastisement. Nor did anyone else.
Therefore, it appears that I am already fitting the “try to keep THAT kinda stuff to a minimum” standard that you have set for me alone and nobody else. And your reason for the disparate treatment is what?
In Psalms 14:1 and 53:1, the Bible states ” The fool has said in his heart “There is no God.”‘ NOT preaching here, just verifying like we do with all other postings.
REPLY TO:Therefore, it appears that I am already fitting the “try to keep THAT kinda stuff to a minimum” standard that you have set for me alone and nobody else. And your reason for the disparate treatment is what?
I WON’T STOP BEING ME AND MENTIONING GOD OR JESUS BASED ON ANOTHER’S LIFESTYLE AND PERCEPTION—THIS IS MY WAY…MY LIFE…MY PERCEPTION…MY TIME ON HERE TO SHARE JUST AS ITS OTHERS TIME ON HERE TO SHARE AS WELL—YOU DO NOT LIKE IT…LIKE I SAID MANY TIMES PASS OVER MY COMMENT…EASY AS THAT…AS I LEARNED MY WAY IN EXPRESSING ON THIS SITE ENDED UP IN COURT RTS—SO YOU MAY WANT TO LISTEN TO WWTKTT—MAYBE JUST PROTECTING YOU FROM WHAT I SAW BY MY EXPRESSIONS CORED TO HERE
The following are not my thoughts but in quotation marks. They are from a retired wild land fire fighter and because they are from a private e mail to me, I will not identify. But be assured these come from a person highly respected with experience and wisdom in all aspects of the fire fighting community.
“Lot’s of people were talking to Eric all afternoon so very surprising and suspicious that no one called him on that phone. So it may have been tampered with before Holly…or Amanda saw it. Eric is said to have always carried 4 communication devices: a cell phone, a SAT phone, a crew radio and a Fire Net radio. I remember but am not sure that Abel and Eric talked around 1600 on a cell phone. So a fifth such device could have been the company cell phone as opposed to his personal cell. With most the people associated with the Yarnell Fire not telling the truth as they know it…lying that is…digital copies of talks are at a premium. I personally do not trust what most the witness have told us. Too many have told me they did not yet told the whole truth. Net effect is that firefighters will continue to die. Not much of a fire cultural legacy we live in. We would rather let each other die horrible deaths than dirty our collective images. Sigh!”
Gives us hope people will start appreciating the purpose of the JD site.
Sonny,
Thanks for sharing your confidential email and keeping it anonymous.
sorry for delay- spent last hour taking jumping cholla needles out of my kitten-13 of them made its way on my kitten all over–must of been climbing a mesquite bush and fell—
Sonny–be there today just after I write this message I want to do bills and maybe try and eat that meal that has been sitting in front of me since 10am—but be there and text or call if u need an asap person because Steph is next door—and I am 11 minutes away.
After meeting all I know public and private that knew Eric Marsh—“it is very surprising and suspicious that no one called him on that phone especially at the crucial time where the SAIR said there was this gap. So it may have been tampered with before Holly got her copy-”
that is my assessment of the recent comment as well as another’s-
I am very sorry for my lack of participation lately—I added new vitamin supplements and I have been very seriously toxic ILL and yesterday when Sonny was typing on here I was projectile vomiting and he was like “WWTTT said or Marti said” and I am thinking this guy really does have no hearing because from 4-6pm I was violently loud ill and all he can think of was this site and here I am going from both areas bad bad ill…but to credit the man he is recovering and he is weak and he does not hear but very frustrating on my end going through it because if I go to some damn ER or if he had dumb nerve to call 911 than it’s a bullshit—putting tubes down your throat and pump the stomache and a high medical bill later for what so I just jammed in warm water intake and the severe pain in my head was way too much that by midnight I almost went to urgent clinic for that pain because of my brain tumors but than I finally vomited one seriously violent 2minute 13second straight and it was way wrong to be in my body living through it but shit I faced more bs in the aftermath of this fire that I kept telling myself it is only temporary—get it out—get the toxins out—(actually what some firefighters should do in regards to YHF—get toxins out & tee it up) I am making my way back to Sonny’s soon but I had to get to Congress on to my wedged pillow and be in solitude to get it out because I was very angry through this awful time—angry I thought; how come?
Because how can one state on this site knowing it is a two way discussion spot not a PR moment to drop a b*mb like that without more documentation when its obvious by people we met – Eric Marsh did not just keep one communication device on him that Holly just reported did not have any calls- not buying it.
Eric was said to have always carried 4 communication devices: a cell phone, a SAT phone, a crew radio and a Fire Net radio.
Red flag is it is in evidence the late afternoon call with Abel-
let me guess–God was their middle guy of communicator between Abel and Marsh, right? There was no actual radio or cell or normal communication used—not buying it.
by the way wwtktt–it is a personal journey getting to know the bible and one’s faith in what direction they want to lead it and what type of lifestyle but it is right that anyone should be free to share their love and passion for Him yet we live in a world that judges or restricts versus allowing people to learn and grow and accept what they are going through in their journey with their faith—Sonny has a masters—one of his degrees is psychology (NMU) and another geology and another religion but you never see him say call me Dr. but he will say his PHD means PILED HIGHER & DEEPER…he knows the bible inside and out and its omissions and deceptions and yet he does not preach nor do what I do…he is a LIVE and LET LIVE person—if you meet Sonny—he is a man who when you leave his space you are a happier person—six wives later have their own perceptions but for me—Sonny=happiness.
I seen poverty up close and I guarantee you being hungry and homeless is NOTHING in comparison to being unwanted unloved and uncared for—
These firefighters who don’t seek truth or change will do anything to degrade us.
I seen it. It is sad.
Everyone honors these men in their own way and none are the wrong way—
our keeping the oil on the burning light is not an obsession BUT a “necessity” the fire people do not want to hear so Holly’s SAFETY MATTERS is heard loud and clear not just in her way and her platform but many millions want change…and they are allowed their way and their platform to express yet the core to it is all IS saftey does matter!
People have been telling me offline—
“So a fifth such device could have been the company cell phone as opposed to his personal cell. With most the people associated with the Yarnell Fire not telling the truth as they know it…lying that is…digital copies of talks are at a premium. I personally do not trust what most the witness have told us. Too many have told me they did not yet told the whole truth. Net effect is that firefighters will continue to die. Not much of a fire cultural legacy we live in. We would rather let each other die horrible deaths than dirty our collective images. Sigh!”
NMU? close enough though. Las Cruces NMSU began as an Agricultural College and eventually expanded to other fields. Oddly they have not included medical studies, but then it is not far to Juarez, Mexico where you can get a medical degree. That would be a nice thing to help interpret these autopsy reports, but even so, some on here are doing a pretty good job of helping us understand these things.
I was interested in how so many showed fractures and was glad that WTKTT explained thoses so we could better understand their significance. It seems any previous fractures that anyone might have incurred while on a march or during work duty might be mistakedly interpreted as heat fractures. Then the is the blunt force injuries of Whitted and we wonder if those could be from a myriad of things, even a fight the night before, actual falling down a steep decline. Consider the place they were making line was approximately as steep and rocky as the place they descended off the two track toward the Helms. I even imagined someone might have pounded on him during their time on the hill side. Strange things happen during times people are facing extreme danger. Remember the story of how Pulaski pulled out his revolver to detain men from running from the cave choked with smoke and hot air–his drastic means of controlling his men is said to have saved their lives, since to run would have been into a flaming front. The Pulaski move into a mine tunnel made me think that a move into the boulders might have been the correct move after all. Those boulders, if you get to inspect their area on both sides, you will see that there were many huge enough that a number of caves were formed underneath the piles where several men could actually find shelter from the heat and smoke above.
Joy and I have been in among the boulders and my belief is that they would have had time and been saved if they had rushed to them instead of taking time to cut out and pile brush in their small clearing. That area would be an excellent area to experiment with these ideas so men would know whether to head to a boulder clearing or play with the hope of clearing and deploying with those shiney blankets.
To add to that, the brush is already back to a good degree. In a couple years from now you would be able to actually make brush runs to allow men to experience first hand what it takes to get though that brush. Despite Willis saying that ordinary people couldn’t get through that stuff, while Hot Shots can, shit I would say if it were a Bear with a Hot Shot Suit on, even he would have a problem. The bears up there just wallow through. Their thick hides need a good scratching and you will see what are called bear wallows and where they wallow it breaks down the brush so bad that you have to find a way around those places. Humans can’t wallow that well even if they are Hot Shots.
It does seem we as humans are more interested in memorials and moving on than we are looking at the long run of things. We would do better to focus on the tragic errors made than learning from a situation that was out of hand. All the honors and accolades in the world will not improve fire fighting safety if we forget to focus on errors so change can be made to save future men on the line. It is a shame to spend millions on memorials while your fire men run around with second class radios, lack of atv.s and worst of all inadequate training and understanding of the importance of safety rules along with storm and fire behavior interaction. Donut’s lack of knowledge of all these things was astounding considering his youth and the dangers he entailed. But his ignorance gave us a clue to how this tragedy could have come about and a reason to look more closely at how these young men are taught before they are allowed to go out on these dangerous missions
Piled higher and deeper, but then there is experience. I think what kept me safe most of my life in the mines was that I had helped my Dad since I was nine years old. There is nothing like experience, but then you have to be told and see what can kill you and how to avoid it. That is why we like to see men of long experience lead these teams. Even years later when I was a young miner I had great respect for bosses that had gotten too old to handle the Jack Leg but could advise well and sometimes see things to save your ass that you were overlooking or too busy to notice. When I logged you soon learned that a leaner was one of the most dangerous things to approach. You knew to leave it alone if you were smart since a gust of wind or just by action alone it could fall and it was not the trunk likely to get you but a big branch off the trunk that would break an arm or perhaps decapitate you. When the Sierra Club and the spotted owl shut the logging business down in New Mexico, I made a business for ten years or so selling wood. Plenty of that time was spent clearing pivate land for ranchers where I was rewarded with the wood or paid a small price per cord for the wood. But all these jobs take time and experience to do well at them. And one thing I did learn was that on hot days when you get fatigued you best pull back from the work and get some time off and rest. I have a nice long chain saw gash on one leg that proves that. Fortunately later model chain saws have a safety device that shuts off the chain motion else I would be missing one leg. Also fortunately I learned the lesson and after that took notice when overly tired. However had I been under a Supervisor that ordered me to continue despite my condition—what would have been my reaction. I hope it would been like that one at the Ward Mine south of Ely. NV. I told that Super to write my check–not going back in with mushrooming timbers.
great site Sonny you mentioned yesterday of Marti’s
when I come up soon we will have to look at it more-
Tomorrow is Ered Mathhew’s play event- just alerted him we will go even though we both are on the weak side—
he mentioned all this food and drinks and I ran to the bathroom and vomited and my meal still sits here from 10am—
just rolling slow but be there Sonny—
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 17, 2015 at 12:32 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I just published my first “diary” regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire on Daily Kos:
>>
>> “We are collectively killing our Wildland Firefighters”
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2015/12/17/1461017/-We-are-collectively-killing-our-Wildland-Firefighters#comment_58640527
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Thank you to everybody for helping me get to the place where I finally feel capable
>> of at least beginning to write about this on a site that gets a million hits per day.
>> On December 17, 2015 at 11:02 pm, Marti also said…
>>
>> Yikes, my diary has just exploded tonight.
>> Many many comments.
>> People are really interested.
They most certainly ARE. Nice work, Marti.
TONS of comments and counting ( and they are no SMALL comments, either ).
Yes… it’s taken off like a ROCKET.
MANY people (obviously) WANT to talk about this.
Fascinating ( intelligent ) discussion right off the bat.
This is obviously where the people ‘hang out’ who are sick and tired of the endless narcissism of Facebook and the banal photo posting… and the folks who are also fed up with the “Wuz up! / Nuttin’ Waz up wit you?” Twitter bullshit.
Nice to know these folks are still ‘out there’ with something to REALLY say instead of all the juveniles ( of any age ) who just want to stay in their ‘safeplace’.
From the bottom of czana’s comment…
“I grew up on the lee side of the Mogollon Ridge, but northern Arizona is one large town in an enormous landscape. I didn’t know the Yarnell crew, but they’re part of the family. Not this, not ever again. We pay respect by learning from our loss and never making this mistake again.”
And the last line of the long comment from ‘ladywithafan’…
Simply stated…
“The families of the Yarnell hill 19, and all our dedicated fire fighting teams DESERVE the FACTS.”
Thanks for the good read Marti. These things you wrote are a positive addition to the fire fighting profession and give food for thought.
You are so totally welcome, Sonny.
I hope you are doing well.
I went to the church I was “born,” raised, and ordained in, this morning. It’s a pretty awesome church………finally.
When the (feminist) minister walked through the congregated, with a microphone, inviting people to speak of those uplifted for prayers, I spoke of you.
I haven’t engaged in the convo downstream, yet, regarding religion. Which, all things considered, I probably will tomorrow.
Just wanted to say I lit a metaphorical candle for you this morning.
Namaste.
Thanks for the prayers.
Thanks for spotlighting this WTKTT!
It was a great conversation for me with people whose experience includes wildland and structural fire-fighting, WUI policy, and fire ecology.
I have no idea where I will go with this, but I decided to just throw it out there, and see what would happen, and use that to develop it all further.
PS Look downstream for my response to you regarding Chris’ camera and my thinking regarding it, which was mistaken. I will write more about this in the next day or two. I’m pretty overly busy right now. But we really need to be open to having our carefully figured out theories corrected, even when it’s difficult, painful, time-consuming, embarrassing, and other versions of hard.
Namaste to everybody.
John Dougherty’s article about key evidence definitely going ‘missing’ in the Yarnell Hill fire investigation and somehow bypassing the possession of YCSO investigators ( Eric Marsh’s cellphone, Christopher MacKenzie’s camera, etc, etc.. ) was also re-published in the Tucson Weekly…
The Tucson Weekly
Article Title: A New Twist in the Death of Granite Mountain Hotshots During 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire
Published: Wednesday, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:00 AM – By Jim Nintzel
http://www.newsjs.com/url.php?p=http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange/archives/2015/12/16/a-new-twist-in-the-death-of-granite-mountain-hotshots-during-2013-yarnell-hill-fire
From that article…
—————————————————————————
Journalist John Dougherty’s Investigative MEDIA organization uncovers a strange wrinkle in the investigation of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire in which 19 Granite Mountain Hotshot firefighters lost their lives:
( Original article reprinted )
—————————————————————————
WTKTT Thanks for the link on JD’s article. A good read for anyone interested in the truth coming out about the Yarnell Hill Fire. It is good news to see some of the media getting facts out to the public and JD is doing a good job informing.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 15, 2015 at 7:24 pm
>> Marti Reed said…
>>
>> “NIOSH releases report on CR 337 fire, fatality in Texas”
http://wildfiretoday.com/2012/05/15/niosh-releases-report-on-cr-337-fire-fatality-in-texas/
“The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has released a report on the death of BLM Hotshot crewmember Caleb Hamm, who died from hyperthermia, a heat related illness (HRI). Mr. Hamm was working on the CR 337 fire near Mineral Wells, Texas with the Bonneville Interagency Hotshot Crew when he collapsed and died July 7, 2011.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Still trying to figure out what, exactly, can trigger a NIOSH investigation
>> into a Wildland Fire LODD.
Still not sure what that ‘trigger’ is, but I think the ‘trigger’ for the ‘Caleb Hamm’ incident was pretty clear.
It was obviously a ‘dropped dead’ situation and since NIOSH’s parent company is the CDC ( Center For Disease Control )… this one was ‘right up their alley’ and undoubtedly within their ‘area of expertise’.
It was hyperthermia. Heat stress plus.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> They actually offered to investigate Yarnell, but were (ahem) “turned down.”
If there had been any real evidence of any ‘illness related’ issue or cause… I think that MIGHT have also resulted in their own ‘approved’ investigation.
For now… the USFS seems to acknowledge that if it DOES appear to be ‘heat stress’ or ‘medically’ related… then yea… what the heck… let the CDC guys have a look at it.
For anything else… fuhgetaboutit.
I think the Structural FF people are still ‘stinging’ over that frap regarding respirators and the fact that the OSHA recommendation actually came out and instituted the ‘2 man rule’. ( No one goes into a burning house anymore without at least 1 ‘lookout’ doing NOTHING but monitoring that ingress until all FFs are OUT again ).
OSHA was supposed to just do their OSHA thing and make recommendations about new respirators.
They did that… AND they ended up also telling the FFs ‘how to go about their business in the future’.
Shock wave of shock waves.
“Bunch of ‘geeks’ tryin’ to tell us what to to. What do THEY know! To hell with them!”.
That really was the initial reaction of most Structureal FFs to OSHA’s ‘Two man rule” when it was published as part of that respirator study.
What the ‘geeks’ ( NIOSH ) ‘knew’ was that yes… the respirators needed improvement… but as it typically the case when you set these kind of professionals and experts loose on something… they know how to do their jobs WELL.
They did TONS of research and discovered that WAAAY too many FFs were dying going into burning buildings ( and never coming out )… but the old-design respirators were just a SMALL part of ‘the problem’ they were now asked to look at.
It was perfectly obvious that MOST of the LODD deaths in this category had MORE to do with old, faulty PROCEDURES as well.
So that’s where the new “2 man rule” came from.
Their job was to look at a NationWide ‘Occupational and Safety Health” issue… and they did what they were supposed to.
They looked at ALL the data and ALL the research and came up with the BEST way to solve the obvious problem(s) and keep more FFs ALIVE.
But the FFs still reacted badly. Some ‘Health and Safety’ people actually now TELLING them what to do? Can’t have THAT shit.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on December 19, 2015 at 2:18 pm
>> Joy said…
>>
>> The discussion of injuries- it is a very good topic in all this and to really have the
>> original medical examiner interviewed to confirm some questions on this area.
The only way to tell the difference between ‘fractures’ that might have happened BEFORE the burnover and ones that happened as a RESULT of the burnover would be if the Medical Examiner had seen fit to do full X-Rays of all those rib, femur, knee and foot/ankle ‘thermal fractures’ being reported in the various autopsy reports.
There is nothing in the reports we have seen ( so far ) to indicate they did that… or that the possibility of injuries BEFORE the burnover ever even occurred to them.
They seemed totally unconcerned about these ‘fractures’ they were discovering on the bodies and oblivious to the fact that they could be of vital importance in explaining how these ( supposedly ) ‘professional’ firefighters could have ALL burned to death the way they did.
>> Joy also said…
>>
>> is it even possible one of the men had an injury where two of them stayed with
>> that man as the others travelled a little ahead of them.
That has always been a possibility.
The autopsy report for Clayton Whitted contained no evidence that any kind of BANDAGE had been wrapped around his head when he died… but if the injury happened on the hike they probably would have only taken the time to apply a BANDAGE to his head if he had obviously been bleeding from the head wound(s).
The autopsy report says these ‘Blunt Force’ injuries were ‘subscalp hemorhages’, meaning the skin had not been broken and the ‘bleeding’ was UNDER the skin.
But the injuries were not small. The report says he had these ‘blunt force’ injuries on BOTH sides of his forehead. One was just slightly smaller than a standard book of matches, and the other one was about half that size.
That’s evidence of a big enough ‘blow to the head’ to have caused a ‘concussion’, and if it happened on the hike itself then Whitted could have easily been in pain and/or weak and confused following the injury. So even though he may have been still ‘on his feet’… it would have been VERY slow going continuing the hike down into the fuel-filled box canyon with someone who had sustained that kind of head injury.
>> Joy also said…
>>
>> REMEMBER THIS— this fire we are given limited knowledge
>> because Holly never told me private or public this news
>> and I really like her and her efforts—
>> She did “generalize” in a recent talk that when she got
>> crucial information ADOSH would not accept the
>> information for case closed as I have seen the same
>> treatment but she never said what that information (was).
If Holly Neill is telling anyone that ADOSH ‘would not accept’ information she wanted to share with them, she is totally and completely full of shit.
‘Accepting’ information is one thing. ‘Agreeing’ with what the person is telling you SHE thinks the information ‘means’ is something else altogether.
ADOSH did the former, but (apparently) not the latter.
On December 5, 2013, the Arizona Department of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) released its final report about the Yarnell Hill Fire and its findings of ‘negligence’ in the Yarnell Hill Fire workplace and the accompany fines and citations, which amounted to the MAXIMUM amount(s) that agency is ever even allowed to impose on an employer.
Almost a month later ( to the day ) is when Ms. Holly Neill first contacted ADOSH ( via email ).
On Monday, January 6, 2014, Ms. Holly Neill sent her first email directly to the Arizona Department of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) regarding ‘evidence’ she thought she had ‘discovered’ relative to the Yarnell Hill Fire and the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
She sent her email DIRECTLY to the ADOSH Yarnell Hill Lead Investigator, Marshall Krotenberg.
She was asking him if ADOSH would be allowed to print an ‘addendum’ to their now-1-month-old Yarnell report, based on ‘new evidence’ she said she had which would (quote from her email) “correct the errors reportedly made by Marsh/GMIHC”.
So even in her first email to ADOSH she made it clear that her intention ( and her AGENDA ) was to try and ‘exonerate’ Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and all the GM Hotshots from ANY ‘wrongdoing’ on June 30, 2013.
There is an ENTIRE document in the ADOSH investigation ‘Correspondence’ folder that is completely dedicated to this ‘exchange’ between ADOSH and Ms. Holly Neill.
That folder is sitting HERE in the InvestigativeMEDIA copy of the ADOSH records…
ADOSH Investigation / ADOSH Notes and Emails / Krotenberg
A direct link to that online folder is as follows…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABe80KXlut_cz_6Ymv7e9gea/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails?dl=0
In that folder.. the file named “N9589 January 2014.pdf” is the one that is completely dedicated to the correspondence ADOSH was receiving from this ‘Holly Neill’ person.
She refused to use her real name on her intial email to ADOSH, but then started using it for all followup correspondence.
Holly Neil’s original email to ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg ( and the followup emails the same day where ADOSH said they WERE interested in what she might have and we seem arranging a ‘telephone call’ to talk about it )…
PDF page 2 ( of 11 pages )
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 7:18 PM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: question about GMIHC
Hello Marshall,
I have been researching the Yarnell Hill Fire. I am a retired wildland firefighter.
I need to ask you a question. If evidence exists that would correct the errors reportedly made by Marsh/GMIHC would you be interested in knowing about it? What would be the outcome to this?
Would you be able to print an addendum to the report to add clarity and additional details to the original report? The goal would be to give the Families and the WFF community the TRUTH so that we can all move forward, heal and apply lessons learned that are clearly based on the actual circumstances.
At this point I would like to know if an addendum is even possible, especially considering the litigation climate? Or is your report considered complete and closed and unable to be revised?
Please advise on the ADOSH position on this kind of thing and if you would be open to talking with me.
Thank you, a fan of GMIHC
————————————————————————-
Notice how Neill SIGNED her very FIRST opening letter to ADOSH.
She calls herself “A FAN of GMIHC”.
Her obvious BIAS ( and her ‘agenda’ ) was showing even in that initial contact.
NOTE: The very next morning, Marshall Krotenberg replied…
————————————————————————-
From: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP)
To: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Tue, Jan 7, 2014 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: question about GMIHC
Can you call me to discuss further?
Marshall Krotenberg, CIH, CSP
Safety Compliance Supervisor
Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
800 W. Washington Street
Phoenix, AZ 85007
direct: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
fax: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
————————————————————————-
NOTE: 40 minutes later, Holly Neil replied to Marshall Krotenberg…
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 10:30 AM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: Re: question about GMIHC
Hey, Will you be your office this afternoon? I can call you after 2pm MTN time or set up a convenient time for you?
————————————————————————-
NOTE: 10 minutes later… Krotenberg responded to Neill…
————————————————————————-
From: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP)
To: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Tue, Jan 7, 2014 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: question about GMIHC
How about 4:00 pm MST today?
Marshall Krotenberg, CIH, CSP
Safety Compliance Supervisor
Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
800 W. Washington Street
Phoenix, AZ 85007
direct: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
fax: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
————————————————————————-
NOTE: 1 hour and 13 minutes later, Neill responded to Krotenberg…
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 11:53 AM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: Re: question about GMIHC
OK, I’ll call you at 4pm, my area code is 505 for your caller ID.
————————————————————————-
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…
( Continued from previous message )…
** THE REST OF HOLLY NEILL’S CORRESPONDENCE WITH ADOSH…
In the rest of this ADOSH ‘Correspondence’ document we then see ADOSH accepting material from Holly Neill along with her ‘analysis’ and her OPINIONS regarding things like what is being heard in background radio transmissions and how certain MacKenzie photographs should be interpreted.
This is where she was first informing ADOSH that she was convinced she is hearing Eric Marsh say ‘at the house’ in that 1613 ( 4:13 PM ) radio exchange, and where she first makes the ( FALSE ) claim that just because two ‘sawyers’ are seen exiting the right frame of MacKenzie’s camera at the ‘rest spot’ that this ‘automatically’ meant ( to her? ) they were leaving that area and heading SOUTH along with Eric Marsh to help ‘improve the escape route’.
Both of these claims of hers have since been proved to be FALSE assumptions.
After the presentation of all her (supposed) ‘new evidence’… Ms. Neill tells ADOSH…
———————————————————————
I have used the above audio file to make some comparisons to the SAIR and WFA reports to illustrate some of the possible implications of this audio. CHANGES would need to be made to ADD this additional information and CORRECT previous assumptions. I believe this will lead to leaving a more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC; providing more clarity for their families, and adding a BETTER understanding of possible lessons the entire WFF community can learn.
Holly Neill
———————————————————————
So if Ms. Holly Neill ever tries to say that ADOSH refused to ‘look’ at her ‘new evidence’ or listen to her opinions about it… she is full of shit.
Her full back-and-forth exchanges with ADOSH are all fully recorded in t
hat “N9589 January 2014.pdf” file in the ADOSH “Notes and emails” folder(s).
So ADOSH accepted ( and discussed ) all her ‘new evidence’.
But they did NOT do what she ( Neill ) wanted. ADOSH did NOT attempt to ‘amend’ their already published reports. There was nothing in this information that was going to change their findings of ‘negligence’ in the Yarnell workplace.
So just two weeks later ( on January 19, 2014 ), Ms. Holly Neill then shows up as being ‘teamed up’ with John N. Maclean and they are both putting their names to a PUBLIC posting of the same ‘assumptions’ Ms. Neill had already provided to ADOSH.
Wildfire Today
Discoveries in Yarnell Hill Fire recordings provide new information about location of Eric Marsh
Published on January 19, 2014 by Bill Gabbert
————————————————————–
Was Eric Marsh at the Ranch When the Hotshots Headed Down the Hill?
By Holly Neill and John N. Maclean
Contrary to assertions in the Serious Accident Investigation Report and elsewhere, and just minutes before the crew was entrapped, Marsh told incident supervisors “I’m at the house” and that his crew was “coming down from the heel of the fire.” Marsh’s radio transmissions that placed him at the house (presumably the Boulder Springs Ranch where the crew was heading), upset official and unofficial notions of where Marsh was and what he was doing.
More…
————————————————————–
>> Joy also said…
>>
>> we spoke on phone right before Christmas and she never
>> mentioned the article she was about to have on Bill
>> Gabbert’s page and my feedback I placed on his page
>> I did not privately speak to her because it hurt that here
>> I tell her information as she asked for but she could
>> not tell me on phone it before it happened
Joy. See above. Holly Neill published her ‘new assumptions’ on Wildfire Today just two weeks after sharing the same ‘assumptions’ ( in writing ) with ADOSH.
>> Joy also said…
>>
>> I believe in Holly.
>> I believe she deserves the respect to listen to her without picking it apart.
Asking simple questions and trying to establish if what someone is carte-blanche ‘declaring’ on a public forum WITHOUT actually supplying links to the REAL evidence is not ‘picking something apart’.
It’s the minimum that any sane person should expect when making ‘public press releases’ with those kind of BOLD statements in them… but refusing to provide the ACTUAL evidence.
A WFF supervisor colleague passed this Australian ABC News article on to me regarding two WFF ‘bushfire’ deaths – not from the fire itself – but from falling hazard trees, the result of storm cell outflow winds. He noted that “Whitewashes are apparently not a uniquely USA reality….” referring to the YH Fire.
In Australia, their Provincial Governments have a much more formal process investigating their bushfire fatalities, e.g. Royal Commissions, Inquiries, and in the present case – ‘inquests’ – instead of SAIT’s. Two WFF were killed by a 100 foot hazard tree that fell on their truck, blown over by strong outflow winds. And there were also weather warnings that played into the deaths, both similar to the YH Fire.
“The inquest previously heard senior firefighters had raised concerns about falling trees in the days before the accident, while others were uneasy about the management of the fire ground.”
“Mr Davis said some had wanted to leave the fire ground on the day of the tragedy before they were ordered to.”
“You can’t possibly tell me that when people who are fighting a fire believe they should get out, and that through no fault of their own, bureaucracy takes an hour-and-a-half to catch up with them, that there isn’t a problem with that,” he said.”
“That is just not right.”
“THAT TWO FIREFIGHTERS COULD BE KILLED AND THAT NO-ONE IS TO BLAME AND NO-ONE DID ANYTHING WRONG … completely fails to acknowledge what happened on that day in Harrietville.”
Sound familiar? “The [YH Fire SAIT] found NO INDICATION OF NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS ACTIONS, OR VIOLATIONS OF POLICY OR PROTOCOL.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-17/system-failed-two-firefighters-killed-by-falling-tree-coroner/7038868?section=vic
Thanks for the article Robert 2. I see the similarity of situations between the two incidents. Failure to let the big dog eat and pull troops out when the situations is out of hand must be killing lots of men throughout the world in the wild fire professions. Again management is suspect, especially when they know there are storm conditions in the vicinity.
To Holley Niel, thanks, any little tidbit adds to help us understand the white wash. We have been informed that Eric always carried two cell phones, one personal and one for the fire fighting work. Did any of your correspondence with Amanda verify that to be the case? It seems your inside information gained from Amanda, the Helms, et al, would add much to our understanding of how and why these men died and how so many millions of tax dollars continue to be squandered on this tragedy.
I had thought that the tax payer money spent on this memorial should be increased a few million to make that into a first class training field for new wild land fire fighters. They could learn so much from the errors and bad management of this debacle and it certainly would be indelible on their minds the lessons left behind by the GMHS crew. This was no accident and no God thing but a tragic case of culpability.
For those whom have never met Wayne, let me say I have the highest respect for him. He and Dr. Ted Putnam educated me to a great degree how to stay alive on the fire edge. I can tell you after their hikes with us that had either one of those men been along with the GMHS that day, all would be alive today. Those young men indeed were killed because someone in charge, starting with Marsh and Steed and I suspect influences from above caused it. God did not have a damned thing to do with this one.
Be that as it may if that area were turned into a training area, as it should be, I would hope men of the caliber of your husband would be a trainer. He was excellent with patience in explaining the wild fire fighting work and his interest to make sure future fire fighters know how to stay alive.
I still wonder about the idea that wild land fighters can also be structure protectors. Remember Willis stated that is what they do, protect structures and implied that they could not just set there in the black, but wanted to drop down to protect structures. I don’t know if that was wanted or ordered since it was said communications, phone records, etc were lost or disappeared as they did from evidence. Gag orders were put out and threats to job security and even U-tube showing a back burn or burn out were deleted — that being in the Shrine are with brisk winds swaying the trees like so many sheets in the wind. Conspiracy theory or by all we have seen so far, maybe it is Conspiracy fact. Seems to me there was more than a little collusion that the tax payer has been contending with.
It would also be delightful to hear from Wayne on his ideas and recommendations. Dr. Ted Putnam has been tied up with his Mann Gulch findings that covered up the evidence that a Forest ranger turned arsonist caused those deaths that he has found little time to concentrate on the Yarnell Hill Fiasco. I do believe men of his ilk, and there are many that contribute to this JD site, will continue to pursue and expose the truth of all the details that caused this debacle.
It has been more than 60 years since the Mann Gulch fire of Aug. 5, 1949 killed 13 men and left a cover up that Dr. Putnam has spent years and good money, trips and interviews to reveal hidden facts. He had been a 15 year veteran smoke jumper and knew this business through his experience in the trenches before becoming one of the worlds most respected fire death investigators. He has no motive for profit but an honorable motive to save lives through honest evaluation of facts and reasons people are led to make such gross errors as we saw with the GMHS. I know there are plenty other expert men and women who read and appreciate this site and the insights brought here.
I am always glad to see new ideas and views come here, even though I am a humble citizen with no wild land fire fighting experience. Even concerned citizens, for instance Otis from the UK, gives us insights that help keep the ball rolling toward the strike.
+ Let us hope it does not take 60 years to clean this one up and I can’t see that it will considering the internet, good people contributing, and JD’s web site allowing free speech and new facts to be revealed.
Thanks John Dougherty.
I forgot to identify Wayne Niel as Holly’s husband.
Sonny
You posted: “This was no accident and no God thing but a tragic case of culpability.:
Yes, I agree on not being an accident and a tragic case of culpability. However. I believe it was definitely a God thing. He’s the author of all things. It’s a God Thing
that we are alive and breathing and posting comments here.
And you also posted: “Those young men indeed were killed because someone in charge, starting with Marsh and Steed and I suspect influences from above caused it. God did not have a damned thing to do with this one”
I believe that God had everything to do with what happened that day …. and everyday.
God gives us choices. Marsh and Steed and the entire GMHS made very bad, fatal choices that day. They were not listening to the “still, small voice” telling them otherwise.
RTS… I have all the respect in the world for you… but could you please keep your ‘imaginary friends’ and/or whatever ‘voices ( small or large ) you hear in your head’ OUT of the discussion?
Thanks.
But I DO AGREE with you on these 2 points you made…
>> Sonny said…
>> “This was no accident and no God thing but a
>> tragic case of culpability.:
>> RTS sais…
>>
>> Yes, I agree on not being an accident and a tragic
>> case of culpability.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Marsh and Steed and the entire GMHS made very
>> bad, fatal choices that day.
WTKTT,
Whoa now! I have to tolerate you, so you have to tolerate me. It works both ways. I thought this was an open forum here.
You posted: “…could you please keep your ‘imaginary friends’ and/or whatever ‘voices ( small or large ) you hear in your head’ OUT of the discussion?”
There’s no ‘imaginary friends’ about it. It’s a verse in the Bible, in 1 Kings 19:12.
Check it out for yourself. “And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.”
Reply to Robert the Second post on
December 19, 2015 at 1:00 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>>
>> Whoa now! I have to tolerate you, so you have to
>> tolerate me. It works both ways. I thought this
>> was an open forum here.
It is. And we ALL need to ‘compliment ourselves’ for the usual level of tolerance that is displayed…
…but that was just pure ‘preaching’ on your part.
I was only ‘requesting’ that you try to keep THAT kinda stuff to a minimum… and I am ONLY speaking for myself.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You posted: “…could you please keep your
>> ‘imaginary friends’ and/or whatever ‘voices
>> ( small or large ) you hear in your head’ OUT
>> of the discussion?”
>>
>> There’s no ‘imaginary friends’ about it. It’s a
>> verse in the Bible, in 1 Kings 19:12.
>>
>> Check it out for yourself. “And after the earthquake
>> a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire; and after
>> the fire a still small voice.”
( Heavy sigh )
WTKTT,
Tolerance My Friend, tolerance.
( Heavy sigh )
If you continue to keep ‘preaching’… yes… I will ‘tolerate’ it… because other than that kind of crap you are one of the most valuable posters here.
So let me rephrase ( as one person trying to tolerate another )…
Can you PULEEZE keep the ‘pure preaching’ or ‘making witness’ or whatever you want to call that kind of stuff to a minimum?
I ( for one ) would simply ‘appreciate it’.
Well my only thoughts here.
When you face hell and the Flames of heat as your chosen occupation you always go with God Jesus and your guarding angels and listen to their voices in your head. Dangerous jobs require both Faith and training.
Whether its your sub conches or something else there has always been a voice not my own that gave me warnings that I learned to follow.
So yes God is there in every thing you do and gives you choices in life.
I do not preach much so that’s it for me.
WTKTT,
I did a quick search for the “God” word and who posted it in both Chapters XVII and XVIII and found the following:
“God” was posted 47 times in Chapter XVII and 36 times in Chapter XVIII, by the following posters in both chapters, in descending order:
(XVII) Sonny + Gary + Joy + WTKTT + RTS + Bob
(XVIII) Gary + Sonny + WTKTT + Joy + Woodsman + RTS + Bob
So, it is very clear to me that I was the only one chastised and/or warned by you. Sonny, Joy, and Gary mention “God’s” name many more times than any of us, yet they received no such chastisement. Nor did anyone else.
Therefore, it appears that I am already fitting the “try to keep THAT kinda stuff to a minimum” standard that you have set for me alone and nobody else. And your reason for the disparate treatment is what?
In Psalms 14:1 and 53:1, the Bible states ” The fool has said in his heart “There is no God.”‘ NOT preaching here, just verifying like we do with all other postings.
Actually my interest in the firefighters deaths when we were hiking out there after the fire as we NORMALLY do as HIKERS and learned from a CA firefighter the area had planned to be only to loved ones indefinitely and that was mid July 2013 and I thought “strange” — but ok for investigative purposes possibly but indefinitely does not make sense not even today it still makes no sense when its selective who can go yet you look at other fire tragedies and it all OPEN so don’t add up— we would hike the area we last saw them and my interest also cored when I got an email that this man was talking about the area the men died and so I listened in and caught terrain errors and emailed him on it-
that was from this link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1lBgicPq5A
Willis said he could hear the radio transmissions and acknowledged they were going to move out and start going into a southerly direction—
Willis is correct that without the men being alive a lot of this is just discussions yet this site has proven the SAIR wrong and helped ADOSH with obtaining their facts and
Jim Paxon said WE WILL NEVER KNOW- facts died with the 19.
KINDA LIKE SAYING —nothing here. MOVE ON.
—there is no confirmation radio transmission
and that God had a different plan for that crew at this time—
I think Willis gets a lot of not needed heat and I feel there is pieces of information that can still shed clarity by others sharing—
The discussion of injuries- it is a very good topic in all this and to really have the original medical examiner interviewed to confirm some questions on this area and if I was investigating this I would ask a few family members that came to the scene to remove the firefighters from the deployment site. Eric Tarr and Medical Examiner and YCSO some questions and through FOIA public information records I will obtain some of those answers to my questions there.
I know that terrain—I sat right where they descended not too long before they died that day—I know that loose rock steep decline and it is a bitch in that tight knit manzanita/cat claw maze- you can travel a ways in and have to back track —it really was a maze-
there is no evidence of witness talking yet in forensic science the autopsy says a lot and it requires a LOOKY LOOKY from a professional who can talk to the original medical examiner– not us here to figure—
is it even possible one of the men had an injury where two of them stayed with that man as the others travelled a little ahead of them and that the radio transmissions was such a frustration that day from the location of fire retardant drops to tying into DIV Z to comfort levels when Marsh was out scouting and I have proof I injured 12 ribs on that same descend and Bruce Hanna injured himself and I know of other private individuals who were injured on same area so it is something NOT TO RULE OUT in the factors leading the men but I still stand firm the man with grey rim glasses that was speaking aloud and had a dispatcher repeating him on the radio—I feel once that person comes forward than I am one step closer to being able to MOVE ON as Holly said—
Yet had I not had SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many come to the hikers from loved ones to people on the fire to people who the men sharing their stories we may of moved on but after God leading that I knew we had to remain until ALL affected by the YHF got the clarity they needed—
the LORD’s purpose will prevail.
I do not believe God had that for their plan—yet for the MISSING ELEMENTS; God has the last word….the Lord judges your motives….
Be loyal and faithful that more will surface…
When I hear people talking negative about me—I just feel it is all part of the grieving process and there is not one person I would shut off or out in this all.
Not one.
As the eyewitness to this horrific fire tragedy we can experience a range of reactions—
Us in our own lives (survivor emotions) but also the loved ones who can range in emotions because we were the last civilian hikers to see them and well first off we never want to lose a loved one and to have a stranger be the last ones to see them and try and be a voice for locals can rub some who knew the men wrong because well I would not want some COMPLETE stranger mention my loved ones name ever so for that I look back and think that as much as I talk about my weekend—it is done with reluctance because I do not want the others to think what I would think if it was my husband they spoke on—so for that I can see disliking me simply for that but that cannot be a reason for me to MOVE ON when I already know more is due to come and I want to be present until its all completed.
We all have our grief phases and for that reason I won’t shut off anyone.
God is omnipresent so RTS is correct in some sense yet I think if the other factors speak up and more clarity is brought forward than one would learn it was not the plan…
the word accident and avoidable are huge to me and my life and this was no accident 6-30-13 and was avoidable—
examine the causes.
result of predictable and preventable occurrences?
REMEMBER THIS— this fire we are given limited knowledge because Holly never told me private or public this news and I really like her and her efforts—
She did “generalize” in a recent talk that when she got crucial information ADOSH would not accept the information for case closed as I have seen the same treatment but she never said what that information yet I did not anticipate it because my history was I hiked with her, she asked me to keep her in the loop of every detail and she would do the same and it went that way November/December 2013 than we spoke on phone right before Christmas and she never mentioned the article she was about to have on Bill Gabbert’s page and my feedback I placed on his page I did not privately speak to her because it hurt that here I tell her information as she asked for but she could not tell me on phone it before it happened so it was the first break than she has since explained the Charley Moselely moment in regards to her and MacLean. Than nothing until she said she was going to be very busy in Prescott and would catch me at Yarnell Memorial 2014 and would I mind to skip the support to the locals here and hike her friends and Eric Marsh’s best friend and Storm King loved one Jim Roth and his lovely wife and so I let some locals know to alert other locals I would see them later after event after her hike and after Michael Kodas so again I can state that Holly did send me stamp funds as I mailed many in the research of this all- She is also the one who sent us two special WFF long sleeve tshirts and introduced us to her cause SAFETY MATTERS! and than nothing until recently she wanted me to know by phone she did not have anything to do with MacLean smokejumper speaking event and we made a connection and all was really let go from the gaps to assumptions—
I believe in Holly.
I believe she deserves the respect to listen to her without picking it apart.
I believe she is very connected to the loved ones in a way I think takes on as down right special—
I feel she does deal with loved ones who feel numb, disconnected, and unable to trust other people. This fire result was unexpected and no one can prepare for this kind of heart ache— and what came after.
It has to be very difficult to want to peak to this site to see if anything NEW but see strangers writing on a person you love immensely.
Yet I stand firm this site is the only public site to discuss the YHF with complete freedom- and from it I have heard from many blog owners/journalists/authors gained their facts from this site.
Joy,
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
December 19, 2015 at 12:34 pm
“RTS… I have all the respect in the world for you… but could you please keep your ‘imaginary friends’ and/or whatever ‘voices ( small or large ) you hear in your head’ OUT of the discussion?”
It appears that “… {this] public site to discuss the YHF with complete freedom- ….” is NOT necessarily the case according to some on this PUBLIC site.
My turn for a ‘Whoa’.
Of COURSE this is the place to post whatever you want, as long as you are respecting the wishes of the moderator of this forum ( which is NOT me ).
It’s also the place where you should ( at any moment ) expect some ‘push back’.
I certainly am ( always ready for ‘push-back’ ).
Asking someone to ‘turn down the volume a little’ on some aspect isn’t any indication of non-tolerance. It’s just a simple request with some fingers and toes crossed.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
December 19, 2015 at 2:18 pm
>> Joy said…
>>
>> REMEMBER THIS— this fire we are given limited
>> knowledge because Holly never told me private
>> or public this news and I really like her and her efforts—
>>
>> She did “generalize” in a recent talk that when she got
>> crucial information ADOSH would not accept the
>> information for case closed.
If Ms. Neill is telling ANYONE that ADOSH would not ‘accept’ information from her… she is completely full of shit.
There is an entire PDF document sitting in the ADOSH information folder that is completely dedicated to that attempt Ms. Neill made ( a month after the ADOSH report came out ) to get them to REWRITE their own Yarnell report.
ADOSH ‘accepted’ everything Ms. Neill wanted to share with them.
She just didn’t get what she wanted.
They decided there was nothing there that would warrant them REWRITING their month-old findings report, or change anything related to the findings of negligence in that workplace and the associated MAXIMUM fines they imposed.
See a longer post up above about this… with the PROOF that ADOSH went ‘out of their way’ to ‘accept’ ( and diligently evaluate ) what Ms. Neill was trying to share with them in January, 2014.
She signed even her intial contact letter to ADOSH with the handle “A FAN of the GMIHC”. Her bias ( and agenda ) were clear from the start.
That longer post is here…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-319974
RT2 No small still voice for me, but my subconscious was screaming get the hell out of here once I saw that spotty fire amongst the boulders had advanced down the mountain and entered the thick manzanita. Common sense looking at the lightening storm to the NE was enlarging told me that the barrage of fire could turn our way any moment. Know that we were right where the men later went down and Joy and I argued at that very point. I was not about to go into that trap, small voice or not. Yet even with all those signs, your trained GMHS crew dropped off there. Willis explained it though===that is what they do protect structures. They couldn’t just set there where they were planted in the black and safe at that time.
Sonny,
You heeded that ‘still. small voice’ and they did NOT.
Among MANY other things. I believe the GMHS had the dangerous ‘Municipal/Structure/Wildland Fire ‘protect structures at all costs’ attitude and mentality that day, carried over from all the kudos on the Doce Fire about 2 weeks prior.
And that is NOT to disparage all the good work they did on the Doce Fire under the leadership of Jesse Steed.
Yes we did understand that they were a hybrid firefighting team. Someone else knew that there were millions of dollars in the Helms ranch that needed protection in my opinion at least. That we have been told by good sources. Now that leads me to the idea that someone else knew they were dual fighters and also thought the risk worth taking to protect those valuables. This is of course only conjecture but we keep looking to evidence to try to understand why these men would undertake a suicide mission. Well Joy was of a mind to do what would have killed her, she thinks to this day she would have made it by skirting along the boulders, yet she had her boots off and still mesmerized by the fireworks. Actually I know the heat of the day, exhaustion and a desire to attempt what would seem easier than tackling the sharp incline behind her to top out the weaver ridge. What they nor Joy had not factored in was how quickly that fire could reverse and some of the earlier video shows this error in Australia that killed a number of men. Too many think they can flank a fire and then get caught. But sadly I have since learned by the many experienced firefighters that those men broke all the rules. Before that I had never known there were guidelines taught to wild land fire fighters, but after reading them they all make common sense.
Much is to be learned by this event. I think a good house cleaning is in order, but in this game of wild land fire fighting it appears that people involved are covering the facts and cronyism is at its best.
Listen carefully.
I just left the Yarnell Post Office.
In line behind me was two men talking about the grief of the state and government and what areas were being taken over out there of theirs and others and they did not seem or appear pleased on the topic of the loss of properties for their purpose or goal….
MY EARS PERKED UP.
..listened thoroughly…
trying to make out the names..
I assumed Don Glasgow by cowboy nice appearance but confirmed the man’s first name is Don as the other man in nicely dressed teal shirt and khaki all crisply ironed and very neat in appearance said “goodbye Don”—
As I was leaving I heard “Ralph”—so maybe that was his name.
someone out there is being asked who OWNS property to share their 100 acres-
let me go do my Nancy Drew and keep you updated-
Now as far as the recent topic on here-
FAIR IS FAIR!!!!!!
Heartache to heartache; we stand.
My question to people who keep thinking “conspiracy theorists”= this site
“Do we stand in your way from what you need to see happen from this YHF because from my ground and as well as on top of the Weavers that 6-30-13 I see this site is ONLY trying to get CLARITY and ANSWERS that people KEEP HOLDING ON TO THEMSELVES IMPORTANT INFORMATION AND AS WE JUST SAW ON RECENT TOPIC THAT FALLS UNDER CRUCIAL POINTS NOW BEING TOLD ABOUT ERIC MARSH’S CELL PHONE AND OTHER HIDDEN EVIDENCE—
I know there is more folks like Holly who know information and those people need to educate the world with resources and documented sources and how they reached that conclusion by sharing this information came from this than that—too general in my opinion the recent comment with no interaction discussion—it reminds me of the Hollywood days when I hung out with celebs and they would have their PR manager place to media what they wanted people to know but not necessarily what was the reality and I saw that first hand in Hollywood. Hollywood does a disservice as well with all the bullshit illusions and deceptions which is much like this YHF aftermath—only this one involved LIFE and DEATH— so as I see it—IT IS A DO OR DIE SITUATION—meaning they DO MAKE CHANGES or FURTHER PEOPLE KEEP DYING”
Won’t anybody help us?
What are we waiting for?
Read more: Pat Benatar – Invincible Lyrics | MetroLyrics
Speak Up!
It seems some are speaking out—but I am asking to SPEAK UP!
YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!
Sonny is 100% right— HONESTY and sharing is the only way.
I know I have come here and said SPEAK UP so many times that some say YOU SPEAK UP— and I will when every piece falls in order so that when I do there is no doubt or speculation or insinuations can be made—
Simply put Joy, the Maughan Ranch people are not at all happy that the State wants to confiscate their private land so that turists and others invade their holdings. I can go along with that considering how difficult and round about it would be to go through their private land and the cost factor to the tax payer. It is obvious that Maughan is happy the way his ranch is and so am I.
Consider that a road just below the Helms would make a quick, easy and direct route to the site if we must have it there instead of Prescott where the fellows are all buried. The 320 acres are no grave yard or site but only where the men met their demise. There history and legacy is at Prescott some 40 miles away from Yarnell. All their momentos lie in storage in a building at Prescott. These are Prescott heros and their memorial belongs there and tax payer money is better spent there than Yarnell where further confiscations and complications cause more damage to locals. Prescott after all has all the amenities, motels, Buckeys for gambling, restaurants, shin digs, swap meets, history, whiskey row, excellent library, museum and history to augment visits, actual grave sites of the GMHS where loved ones certainly have access and concerned ones can visit a memorial dedicated to the GMHS. It only makes sense to do it that way instead of making Yarnell the site of any memorial beyond what is already here. Has any of the planning committee bothered to get an honest poll from locals and loved ones on whether they should spend the tax payer money here or feel as I do that it would be better spent in Prescott so the loved ones have easy access.
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 16, 2015 at 6:21 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Oh…and one more thing. I agree with Bob that we should keep shaking the
>> tree until everything falls out, one way or the other.
Something just fell out.
It is VERY unlikely that this Holly Neill person would have come onto this ‘much-hated’ discussion to talk about Eric Marsh’s cellphone records unless she had Amanda Marsh’s permission to do so.
So the tree IS ‘shaking’ a little… and some things ARE ‘falling out’.
Fascinating to know ( after ALL this time ), that Ms. Amanda ‘Beno’ Marsh has ALWAYS had her own ‘copies’ of Eric’s cellphone records and she was just ‘picking and choosing’ who SHE wanted to give them to.
Spoliation of evidence
From Wikipedia
The spoliation of evidence is the intentional, reckless, or negligent withholding, hiding, altering, fabricating, or destroying of evidence relevant to a legal proceeding.[1] Spoliation has two possible consequences: in jurisdictions where it is the (intentional) act is criminal by statute, it may result in fines and incarceration (if convicted in a separate criminal proceeding) for the parties who engaged in the spoliation; in jurisdictions where relevant case law precedent has been established, proceedings possibly altered by spoliation may be interpreted under a spoliation inference, or by other corrective measures, depending on the jurisdiction.
For Holly Neill to now come out with some one-and-done “press release” ( and not even answer any further questions about the information ) and try to say something along the lines of…
“YES… there seems to have been a BOTCHED investigation… and maybe some weird things were going on… but I assure you I know no one seems to have ‘contacted’ Marsh via cellphone after he talked to Abel about the screw-ups with DIVSZ Marquez… and so no harm done. Move along. Nothing to see here.”
…fails to take the following into account.
From the moment the incident took place, until the moment every single autopsy was finished, law enforcement is REQUIRED to default to believing it *might* be a ‘crime scene’ and is also REQUIRED to treat it that way.
Until the Medical Examiner TELLS law enforcement there is no evidence of ‘foul play’ on ANY of the 19 ( NINETEEN ) bodies they were required to examine… EVERYTHING is important and under THEIR jurisdiction.
When the 19 ( NINETEEN ) autopsies were finished… we can see now that none of the Medical Examiners performing the autopsies found any evidence of any gun-shot wounds, or STAB wounds, or skull fractures.
There was only one significant ‘blunt force injury’ to the head of Clayton Whitted, but that Medical Examiner didn’t think much of it and offered no explanation as to its cause.
So all 19 ( NINTEEEN ) autopsy results ended up officially ‘Accidental Death’.
But now we have evidence in those same autopsy reports that even BEFORE those final determinations were made ( and signed off on by the lead Maricopa County Medical Examiner )… certain critical ‘items of evidence’ were just getting up and walking right out of the pockets of dead men lying on tables and walking out the door of the Medical Examiner’s office, apparently unbeknownst to law enforcement officers who were right their ‘collecting evidence’.
And then only SOME of what ‘walked out the door’ ever made it back to the next group of taxpayer-funded individuals who were legally charged with ‘investigating’ a historic, National Tragedy.
Apparently ( to this day ) the ONLY reason we ever saw any of those photos and videos taken by Christopher MacKenzie ( with that Canon camera that was right there in his left shirt pocket when his autopsy began )… is because of Christopher’s own FATHER and his sense of what was ‘important’.
It is still not clear WHO handed Christopher’s Canon back to his father… without it having entered the possession of the Yavapai County Sheriff’s office first.
But ( as the story still goes )… the moment Christopher’s father saw it was still totally functional and became aware of what was on it… HE had the integrity to make SURE that those responsible for investigating why his son ( and ALL of those sons and husbands ) had burned to death SAW that ‘evidence’.
That ain’t how it’s supposed to go down.
It’s not supposed to end up ‘an accident’ that ONE FATHER would be the only one to know what is important for investigators to have.
**
** CONFIRMATION THAT THE SAIT NEVER EVEN TRIED TO OBTAIN
** CELLPHONE RECORDS?
>> On December 17, 2015 at 7:50 pm, Holly Neill said…
>>
>> I obtained Mr. Marsh’s cell phone records from his wife Amanda Marsh over
>> a year ago, in Nov. of 2014 after requesting them much earlier. According to
>> her at that time, no professional or trustworthy person had requested them
>> beforehand.
>>
>> Therefore, was this an incomplete investigation? YES.
So… I’m not sure it was Ms. Neill’s intention to do so… but she basically just PROVED that Florida State Forester Jim Karels and USFS official Mike Dudley ( Co-leaders of the SAIT ), and others on that Arizona Forestry contracted SAIT team were flat-out LYING in their official report.
One has to assume that Ms. Amanda ‘Beno’ Marsh WOULD have considered a request for cell records from that Arizona Forestry SAIT team to be a ‘valid’ request… and coming from ( in her mind ) “professional and trustworthy people”… yes?
Well… then Ms. Neill is CONFIRMING that that request NEVER TOOK PLACE, and the SAIT remained absolutely CLUELESS about whether the man in charge of those other men that day did, or didn’t ‘communicate’ with anyone using his cellphone in the critical time leading up to their deaths.
So that makes absolute poppycock out of the following statement in the SAIR…
From PDF page 39 ( of 122 pages ) in the SAIR document…
—————————————————————————-
Analysis
There is a gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the Granite Mountain IHC. From 1604 until 1637, the Team cannot verify any communications from the crew, and we have almost no direct information from them.
—————————————————————————-
Key phrase…
“the (SAIT) Team cannot verify any communications from the crew:
Ms. Holly Neill is now CONFIRMING they didn’t even TRY.
If they did NOT actually request the cellphone records of the person who was leading the crew itself as part of their ‘investigation’… then they had no right making any statements to the effect that they ‘could not verify’ something.
To get anywhere near the ‘truthful’ range, then, that published statement from them should have read more like this, then…
—————————————————————————-
Analysis
There SEEMS to be a gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the Granite Mountain IHC from 1604 until 1637. The Team made very little effort to VERIFY whether or not anyone was directly communicating with them… so there MIGHT have been some direct communications via cellphone in the critical time period leading to their deaths… but we just don’t know. Sorry.
—————————————————————————-
You also still have to love the ‘clever’ choice of words in this statement…
“we have ALMOST no direct information from them”
ALMOST?
We all know the times where ‘almost’ only counts… but in this context ‘almost’ means they DID have at least SOME ‘direct information from them’, but they didn’t WANT to mention it.
There is also a simple question here????????????
The records being spoken about. Are they from the Cell phone billing.
Did Marsh have to break down each month what was private and what was Work?
Did Marsh File this info with The city if so then Marshes wife would have done that to get the partial payment from the city on the Cell Phone.
The reason I am saying this the records may be no more than billing records of out going calls. These would be sorted at each billing period. They could as well be in the Phone records under Received, Missed and Dialed and not a printed record if the phone was functional. I am betting there was some printed record that Marsh turned in to the city Monthly for justification for reimbursement.
Seems logical but then what has ever been logical here.
I am still dumb founded that the phones and camera’s were not taken as evidence for further study. That is just crazy and a poor example of the YCSO and their investigative protocol.
All good points, Bob.
As Mr. Dougherty said down below… we can’t know WHAT Ms. Neill is really referring to unless we SEE it.
If the records she has do NOT reflect the same ‘inbound’ call to his phone that Darrell Willis’ ‘outbound’ call records show at 4:50 PM ( when Willis tried to call Marsh just after the deployment but it went to voice mail )… then I would say that’s proof she has ‘incomplete records’.
We also don’t know if Amanda Marsh was simply HANDED some copy of something that someone else actually obtained ( like Prescott Human Services department ).
In other words… is Ms. Neill trying to say that Amanda Marsh obtained the call records herself ( via direct contact with the carrier )… or does Ms. Neill just have some -‘fourth person removed’ copy of something someone else just ‘handed’ to Amanda Marsh, at some point?
Many questions ( and I doubt Ms. Neill is going to answer ANY of them ).
She just came here to do a ‘press release’… not ‘take questions’.
“She just came here to do a ‘press release’ … not ‘take questions’.”
It certainly looks that way to me. And there’s no mistaking on who’s behalf that ‘press release’ was conducted.
However, since Ms. Neill claims she is not receiving any pay whatsoever for all her research work, then perhaps her job moonlighting as Amanda Beno-Marsh’s official PR person is little more lucrative?
Reply to J. Stout post on December 19, 2015 at 10:38 am
>> J. Stout said…
>>
>> “She just came here to do a ‘press release’ … not ‘take questions’.”
>>
>> It certainly looks that way to me. And there’s no mistaking
>> on who’s behalf that ‘press release’ was conducted.
She is ( and has always been ) a known ‘back-channel consultant’ to a subset of the widows and family members.
It is HIGHLY unlikely that Ms. Neill would have done what she just did unless she had Amanda Marsh’s expressed permission ( or even encouragement ) to do so.
Juliann Ashcraft stopped by her house in Farmington, New Mexico on her “Spread the Better” all-50-states bus tour she did with the converted RV ‘land yacht’ she purchased and had this to say on her PUBLIC blog about the visit with Ms. Neill…
Juliann Ashcraft “Spread the Better” PUBLIC Blog…
BLOG article Title: HOLLY and WAYNE – Farmington NM
Published: Wednesday, April 29, 2015
http://bebetterbrigade.blogspot.com/2015/04/holly-and-wayne-farmington-nm.html
From this PUBLIC article…
—————————————————————-
Throughout the years, Holly and Wayne have been closely associated with several incidents involving wildland firefighting fatalities. They have lost brothers amidst the blaze and have been affected by the grief that follows such a tragedy. Storm King was among those fires, and afterwards, Holly and Wayne reached out and took an active role in assisting the families of those who were lost. Likewise, they immediately became involved when they learned that our men died on June 30, 2013.
Since that time, and throughout the past two years, Holly and Wayne have been completely engaged and committed to finding the truth. Holly told me that there hasn’t been a single day since the Incident Report was released with the initial “findings” that she hasn’t been researching all of our unanswered questions. With their knowledge of fire behavior, the operations and procedures on a fire line, the dynamics of a hotshot crew, and the purpose of incident command, they have expert knowledge in areas that others of us did not. At a time when the family members who were seeking the truth were solely carrying the weight of sorting through all the cover-ups and deceit, and being overcome with desire for understanding, Holly and Wayne offered a much needed helping hand.
Holly has walked the path taken by our own GMIHC in Yarnell, over and over again…taking note of anything that may lead to a better understanding of the events that took place there that fateful day. She has been a beacon of hope that the truth will unravel as she has uncovered many pieces of information that have already assisted in more closure and more healing for our family. Because of the immense work Holly and Wayne have put into discovering the truth, I believe that one day I will be able to tell my children the facts about what happened to their Daddy and his 18 friends and why they didn’t come home to us.
Holly allowed me to pick at her brain and ask countless questions during our visit. Without fail, I feel empowered, hopeful, and a sense of peace whenever I speak to her. She is a true blessing and a dear friend.
Juliann Ashcraft
—————————————————————-
So it’s perfectly obvious what Ms. Neill’s motivation is.
She wants to be the ‘oracle’ for the family members and tell them what SHE thinks happened.
And the family members who are listening to her seem to be believing whatever she is telling them as “the way it really happened”.
Again… this statement from Juliann Ashcraft…
“Because of the immense work Holly and Wayne have put into discovering the truth, I believe that one day I will be able to tell my children the facts about what happened to their Daddy and his 18 friends and why they didn’t come home to us.”
Immense work?
Where?
Some of Ms. Neill’s conclusions ( whenever she has bothered to say what they are ) have been proven to be FALSE on any number of occasions.
With or without being ‘paid’… she has a PRIVATE AGENDA.
So “buyer beware”.
Mr. Powers is correct. Unless she says specifically what she considers to be ‘cell phone records’… she could simply be looking at a copy of the Verizion bill for that phone for the month of June.
That is NOT, in any way, a complete accounting of ALL calls made to/from that phone… and which ones might have gone to ‘voice mail’.
Darrell Willis’ cell phone records prove that he tried to call Eric at 4:50 PM that day when they were trying to figure out WHERE they were ( because they had failed to communicate effectively with anyone that afternoon ).
Willis’ call went to voice mail.
We do NOT know if it went STRAIGHT to voice mail ( which would indicate the phone was OFF and not ‘pinging’ on the network ) or if the phone RANG and RANG and RANG… and THEN went to voice mail ( which would indicate the phone was powered on and ‘visible’ on the celluar network… but no one answered it ).
If whatever Ms. Neill has does NOT also show this call from Darrell Willis… then it is not a valid set of the cell phone records for that phone for that day.
“Buyer beware” — that’s for sure. Even more so since it is a PRIVATE AGENDA on the part of someone lacking any credentials establishing her as an “expert.”
Reply to J. Stout post on
December 19, 2015 at 1:27 pm
>> J. Stout said…
>>
>> “Buyer beware” — that’s for sure. Even more so
>> since it is a PRIVATE AGENDA on the part of
>> someone lacking any credentials establishing
>> her as an “expert.”
In January of 2014, a full MONTH after the ADOSH report had been released and the multiple citations for negligence were issued… Ms. Holly Neill contacted ADOSH and said she had ‘new evidence’ that she had gleaned from listening to background radio captures and now PUBLIC photographs.
She refused to give her real name on her initial email to ADOSH and signed it only as…
“A FAN of the GMIHC”.
She also asked ADOSH if they would be able to print an ‘addendum’ to their now-1-month-old Yarnell report, based on ‘new evidence’ she said she had which would (quote from her email) “CORRECT the errors reportedly made by Marsh/GMIHC”.
So her motivation was clear right off the bat.
As a “FAN of GMIHC”… try to CORRECT information now in the PUBLIC record that GMIHC made ‘mistakes’ that day.
So yea… “Buyer Beware”.
In that initial letter to ADOSH, the only ‘credentials’ she was claiming was the she was a “retired wildland firefighter”.
SIDENOTE: Even that has already been debunked and the consensus was that she never had nearly enough time put in to even claim she could be officially ‘retired’. She just ‘stopped doing it”. Not the same as actually ‘retiring’.
There is an ENTIRE document in the ADOSH investigation ‘Correspondence’ folder that is completely dedicated to this ‘exchange’ between ADOSH and Ms. Holly Neill.
That folder is sitting HERE in the InvestigativeMEDIA copy of the ADOSH records…
ADOSH Investigation / ADOSH Notes and Emails / Krotenberg
A direct link to that online folder is as follows…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABe80KXlut_cz_6Ymv7e9gea/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails?dl=0
In that folder.. the file named “N9589 January 2014.pdf” is the one that is completely dedicated to the correspondence ADOSH was receiving from this ‘Holly Neill’ person.
Here is Holly Neil’s original email to ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg ( and the followup emails the same day where ADOSH said they WERE interested in what she might have and we seem arranging a ‘telephone call’ to talk about it )…
PDF page 2 ( of 11 pages )
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 7:18 PM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: question about GMIHC
Hello Marshall,
I have been researching the Yarnell Hill Fire. I am a retired wildland firefighter.
I need to ask you a question. If evidence exists that would correct the errors reportedly made by Marsh/GMIHC would you be interested in knowing about it? What would be the outcome to this?
Would you be able to print an addendum to the report to add clarity and additional details to the original report? The goal would be to give the Families and the WFF community the TRUTH so that we can all move forward, heal and apply lessons learned that are clearly based on the actual circumstances.
At this point I would like to know if an addendum is even possible, especially considering the litigation climate? Or is your report considered complete and closed and unable to be revised?
Please advise on the ADOSH position on this kind of thing and if you would be open to talking with me.
Thank you, a fan of GMIHC
————————————————————————-
Again… notice how Neill SIGNED her very FIRST opening letter to ADOSH.
She calls herself “A FAN of GMIHC”.
Her obvious BIAS ( and her ‘agenda’ ) was showing even in that initial contact.
Holley is working for MacClean and as writers go they want an exclusive and as much evidence and facts hidden as possible until their book is published.
Not to split hairs here… but if ( as Ms. Neill has supposedly asserted ) she is not getting PAID for her work… then she is not ( technically ) ‘working’ for anyone.
She is simply ‘assiting’ him with HIS for-profit venture.
So it would still be safe to say Ms. Neill is INVOLVED and ASSISTING with a ‘for-profit’ venture, regardless of whether she is on a 1099 or a W4 ( or just a ‘handshake’ ).
WTKTT In all considerations of the Holly post, I don’t think she has anything and I suspect this was just a verbal exchange between her and Amanda. Otherwise she would do the right thing and post any documentation she has.
Reply to Sonny post on December 19, 2015 at 12:09 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> WTKTT In all considerations of the Holly post, I don’t think
>> she has anything and I suspect this was just a verbal
>> exchange between her and Amanda.
If she has anything at all… it might just be ( as Bob Powers pointed out ) a copy of the regular Verizon phone bill for that cellphone number. Perhaps Amanda Marsh gave her a copy after she got it in the mail.
That is NOT a valid record of ALL the calls that might have been made to/from that cell phone.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> Otherwise she would do the right thing and post any
>> documentation she has.
Ms. Holly Neill does not appear to have ANY intentions of ever ‘publishing’ anything. She is enjoying her role as ‘back-channel oracle’ to a small subset of the widows… and she has apparently been successful in getting them to believe whatever HER version of the events area.
The only thing she might do more of is what she just did.
Just ( occasionally ) post messages on sites where people are still trying to find out the real truth and say “There’s nothing to see here… move along… move along”.
Holly Neill pees forest green just like most former Hotshots.
She has a PRIVATE AGENDA… so “buyer beware”.
Again, this reminds me of the Donut syndrome. Too many people are holding back proof, facts, testimony that would help bring truth to this investigation. Their excuses for doing so range from greed (profit motive) to fear (loss of job, retirement friends, etc.) to outright legal orders to quash the truth by gag orders.
It is a sad state in American history that this affront to justice is orchestrated. I continue to applaud the professional work we see on this site. WTKTT continues to forge ahead with many other talented investigators on the JD site. I am baffled how anyone anytime can object to the duty and honor of getting at the truth considering the rewards it will give.
(Might as well post here, too.)
To John Dougherty et al:
After reading your latest article on speculation and insinuations concerning cell phones and records, you need to know that Eric Marsh’s cell phone records prove that there were no calls to him or from him after 1:11 PM on June 30, 2013.
The last call was between Eric Marsh and Todd Abel at 1:11pm and it lasted for 8 minutes. This conversation included information from Marsh to Abel about earlier communications between Rance Marquez and Eric Marsh.
There’s no smoking gun here with “hiding” his cell phone or withholding his cell phone records as evidence, for any reason.
I obtained Mr. Marsh’s cell phone records from his wife Amanda Marsh over a year ago, in Nov. of 2014 after requesting them much earlier. According to her at that time, no professional or trustworthy person had requested them beforehand.
Therefore, was this an incomplete investigation? YES.. Was there a Conspiracy? NO.
At the very least I hope you will stop the shameful insinuations and conspiracy theories when it comes to Marsh’s cell phone records, and MOVE ON.
Holly Neil,
You posted “The last call was between Eric Marsh and Todd Abel at 1:11pm and it lasted for 8 minutes. This conversation included information from Marsh to Abel about earlier communications between Rance Marquez and Eric Marsh.”
And you can prove this how? Do you also have transcripts of those conversations as well?
OSHA did request and were denied the records. I would say they are both professional and trustworthy — we did hike Brett Steurer and Bruce Hanna the route of the GMHS on September 2013, investigators for OSHA. Then we hiked you, you husband Wayne, Dr. Ted Putnam and on a second hike John MacClean the author in November 2013. So I am curious how investigators were denied yet you could get the record. Was anything redacted after that length of time? Why would you withhold all this information for all this time. When you hiked with us that was one of our number one concerns and we told you that yet you never mentioned that you had the records. Now you say to move on when there is plenty yet to say and plenty of photos and testimony that we do know will come out.
As far as OSHA goes they did the right thing as far as they went or were allowed to go and did uncover many foibles in operations that day. But there is much more to the story that has cost those lives, Yarnell lives, almost half the town residences, a number of Peeples Valley homes, and millions of dollars in tax payer money that could have and should have been avoided. I do not think we will move on until all is known despite so many that hope that happens. Too much at stake here including illnesses mostly among the elderly as I myself can attest to. The short and long term effects from NH3 and the 8% trade secret chemicals that fumed the residents of Yarnell and Glen Isla has yet to be investigated as well. There has been no long term study on that eventhough NH3 is a lung cell killer and has been known to kill tens of thousands of fish when accidentally dumped into rivers. The 30,000 gallons plus of that ammonium phosphate that was dumped as an agent orange slurry in our back yards needs to be studied since the amount of deaths, especially among the elderly and even a younger asthma sufferer is way over the amount of deaths we would expect under normal conditions.
If we indeed have a memorial let it be a legacy of honesty. The errors made by the GMHS will be a testimony to save lives in future wild land fire fighting. Perfuming a stinky rotten situation is not good work.
Just this very day we met a very important witness and there are a group of these witnesses that have vowed to come forward with more important revelations about this fire. That is their plan and their time. So we are not about to move on at this point
Reply to Sonny post on December 17, 2015 at 9:18 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> If we indeed have a memorial let it be a legacy of honesty.
>> The errors made by the GMHS will be a testimony to save lives
>> in future wild land fire fighting. Perfuming a stinky rotten situation
>> is not good work.
Well said, Sonny.
But as for the first sentence…
“If we indeed have a memorial let it be a legacy of honesty”:
…it is, I’m afraid, too LATE for that.
The only way to achieve that ‘legacy’ was to make SURE it was being achieved from the get-go. There’s too much evidence now that points to the ‘prime-directive’ being exactly the opposite of ‘honesty’.
There is basically irrefutable proof there now just ‘sitting in plain view’ that these men were ‘cheating the system’ even on the very day before they died and were earning ( collectively ) thousands of dollars of overtime working on a fire they weren’t even at.
And there’s no way now to ‘take back’ the fact that only surviving member of the crew had always been ‘withholding information’ ( in at least THREE separate interviews ) from the people who were legally charged with finding out the truth about this incident.
And that’s just the Granite Mountain CREW itself.
There’s also too much evidence to NOT assume there are many others who may have done exactly what Brendan McDonough did and played some kind of “ask me the right question and I *might* give you the right answer” GAME with official investigators during THEIR interviews.
All in all… the ‘legacy’ is ALREADY not pretty at all… and it’s too late to recover.
SIDENOTE: The minutes of the September, 2015 meeting of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board that have just been released indicate that Brendan McDonough has now been (quietly) DROPPED from this PUBLIC Board tasked with creating a proper memorial for his crewmates due to his continued FAILURE to even ATTEND any of the meetings of this Board that he agreed to serve on.
WTKTT – Correction well taken. I did not want to say legacy of dishonesty. However it would be an honest report of the dishonesty that haunted their ranks, lack of respect for the wild land fire fighters safety rules as parroted by Donut (the “Donut Syndrome”) and the defective and suspect official SAIR reports.
We have been called insensitive for pointing these things out. But if these official Croney reports don’t care to reveal the truth of how and why the GMHS people went to their deaths then how insensitive they are not to consider how the Yarnell adverse actions unrevealed will only bring on more deaths. We can only learn from the facts, not by some excuse laying the blame to God or chance. These were not accidental deaths and had causes. Those causes revealed and widely published have the effect of teaching others and saving lives, homes, resources and bundles of taxpayer money.
Reply to Sonny post on December 19, 2015 at 9:56 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> We have been called insensitive for pointing these things out.
>> But if these official Croney reports don’t care to reveal the
>> truth of how and why the GMHS people went to their deaths
>> then how insensitive they are not to consider how the
>> Yarnell adverse actions unrevealed will only bring on
>> more deaths.
Agree. I someone wants to talk about ‘insensitivity’… are they forgetting that some members of the family actually STOOD UP at the meeting when the SAIR was first released and were YELLING at Jim Karels and Mike Dudley saying… “WHY won’t you just tell us the TRUTH”?
There ARE ( and have ALWAYS been ) family members who know for a fact they have just been being bullshitted from day one… and they have said so… and they are STILL angry about it and “Want To Know The Truth”.
What simply doesn’t sink in to the heads of people who say they are in ‘disbelief’ that we would still be looking at this incident looking for the FULL story is that we, ourselves, are equally in ‘disbelief’ that they could care so little about their loved ones that they do NOT want to know what REALLY happened to them.
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> We can only learn from the facts, not by some excuse
>> laying the blame to God or chance. These were not
>> accidental deaths and had causes. Those causes revealed
>> and widely published have the effect of teaching others
>> and saving lives, homes, resources and bundles of
>> taxpayer money.
Once again… spot on, Sonny.
Totally agree.
Holly Neil,
You posted “The last call was between Eric Marsh and Todd Abel at 1:11pm and it lasted for 8 minutes. This conversation included information from Marsh to Abel about earlier communications between Rance Marquez and Eric Marsh.”
And so you have documented proof of this? You have recording GS and/or transcripts of these earlier communications between Marquez and Marsh?
Holly Neil.
CORRECTION: my post should read as follows: “You have recordings and/or transcripts of these earlier communications between Marquez and Marsh?”
Good Questions to my knowledge the only thing you can get would be the calls made and the time of each as well as the calls received there is no way to get a recording of those calls. Unless some one was monitoring Marsh’s Phone Like it was bugged????
She would have had to talk to Todd Able to find out what the call was about.
So are we hearing a new game of Lies as Holly seems to Play. Your word aint no proof lady a complete investigation of the Phone by a professional would be better served. I do not really care about a Conspiracy. I care about a real legal investigation with Facts. That phone is Evidence and should be turned over to the authorities.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 17, 2015 at 9:51 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> She would have had to talk to Todd Able to find out what the
>> call was about.
C’mon, fellas. There’s plenty to talk about in this ‘announcement’ from this Holly Neill person… but whether Marsh called Abel after DIVS Marquez blew off his assignment down there on the south side of the fire isn’t open for debate.
Tod Abel TESTIFIED that it happened… and that it was about Marquez… and even though the actual Field OPS on the fire then didn’t seem to give a shit that one of his Division Supervisors had just ‘walked away’ from is assignment… at least he (apparently) said…
“Well… did you guys at least work something out?”
Ms. Neill,
Thanks for weighing in. I’m trying to learn the facts about the Yarnell Hill fire.
It will help me if you can tell me what part(s) of Mr. Dougherty’s article were factually incorrect. Do you have an official copy of Mr. Marsh’ cell phone records?
The last call made was to Todd Abel at 1:11PM, according to your records. You say the conversation was about earlier communications between Mr. Marsh & Mr. Marquez? Did you interview Mr. Abel to find out the content of the conversation? Do you know anything else about this conversation?
I really appreciate your help with this. You seem to have some very valuable information.
Thank you.
Woodsman
Reply to Holly Neill post on December 17, 2015 at 8:03 pm
>> Holly Neill said…
>>
>> ( Might as well post here, too. )
Yea. Me too. Increases the chances you might actually answer questions this time.
I’m just one of the ( many ) ‘et al’… but still hoping you won’t just do a ‘hit and run’ this time.
Maybe you’ll ‘stand and deliver’… for once. ( See QUESTIONS below ).
>> Holly Neill said…
>>
>> Eric Marsh’s cell phone records prove that there were no calls to him
>> or from him after 1:11 PM on June 30, 2013.
First and foremost… thank you for taking the time to contribute to this ongoing discussion.
It’s good to know at least SOMEONE ( even though you are not an investigator ) has had a chance to ‘see’ those cell phone records.
That being said… it is also documented in Darrell Willis’ cell phone records that he DID attempt to call Eric Marsh at 4:50 PM that afternoon, during that time when everyone at the Ranch House Restaurant was trying to figure out where the hell they WERE.
Darrell Willis’ cellphone records indicate the call went to voice mail… which ( I believe ) should ALSO then be showing up on the cell phone records YOU have… if they are accurate.
>> Holly Neill also said…
>>
>> The last call was between Eric Marsh and Todd Abel at 1:11pm and it
>> lasted for 8 minutes. This conversation included information from
>> Marsh to Abel about earlier communications between Rance Marquez
>> and Eric Marsh.
I’m assuming that you, yourself, are also just ‘assuming’ that was the content of that conversation because of the other public testimony.
I think that is, in fact, a ‘safe’ assumption.
It matches other testimony that once Rance Marquez basically ‘gave up’ on trying to figure out how to handle the south side of the fire as an assigned ‘Division Z’ and he just went back to the north side of the fire to see if he could make himself useful up there… Eric Marsh DID feel the need to call OPS1 Todd Abel and explain that Marsh had to “get a little rougher than I normally like to” with the guy ( Marquez ) because of their inability to agree on a Division Boundary.
>> Holly Neill also said…
>>
>> There’s no smoking gun here with “hiding” his cell phone or withholding
>> his cell phone records as evidence, for any reason.
You are asking us to just take your WORD for that.
You are also missing the point whereby it doesn’t matter if the resulting examination of a crucial piece of evidence produces ‘results’, or not.
Tampering with ‘evidence’ in any way ( such as making some effort, however small or large, to prevent investigators from even having it )… is a CRIME.
There are OTHER ‘electronic devices’ that went ‘missing’ from that ‘scene’, such as the Garmin Oregon 450 portable GPS device that was KNOWN to be attached to Robert Caldwell’s right pack strap.
Brendan McDonough also testified to ADOSH that they ( GM ) normally had even up to 4 or 5 portable GPS units out there with them that day.
NONE of those GPS units ( and the very important evidence THEY might contain ) ever entered the chain of evidence.
It’s also not possible they all could have ‘melted away to nothing’ because some of the components in them were forged at temperatures even higher than anything that was present in or around that deployment site. There WOULD, at least, have been enough left of any modern handheld GPS device to at least still identify it as such.
At least one ( perhaps more )… the one Christopher MacKenzie photographed ‘attached’ to Robert Caldwell that very day… just ‘got up and walked away’ from the deployment site.
Ditto for another crucial piece of evidence.
Christopher MacKenzie’s Canon digital camera.
We seem to know for a FACT now ( thanks to InvestigativeMEDIA and Mr. John Dougherty ) that it, also, just ‘got up and walked out’ of the Maricopa County Medical Examiner’s office and bypassed all YCSO policeman whose were THERE to ‘collect evidence’.
Christopher’s Canon Digital camera was right there in his left shirt pocket when they began the autopsy. His cell phone was also right there in the right pocket of his PANTS.
Chrsitopher’s cellphone ended up in the official YCSO ‘evidence chain’.
His ‘working’ ( as even noted by the Medical Examiner’s ) Canon camera did NOT.
There has to be an ‘explanation’ for that.
The only reason anyone EVER got to see that ‘crucial evidence’ that was sitting right there on Christopher’s camera is because Christopher’s own FATHER took it upon HIMSELF to make SURE that evidence ‘reentered the investigation’.
Just like Eric Marsh’s cellphone… we KNOW now that these things were FOUND directly on the bodies themselves… but they NEVER entered the official ‘chain of evidence’ at the time they were supposed to… but somehow ( magically? ) WERE returned to family members.
Again… tampering with evidence is a CRIME, even if no ‘foul play’ charges result from the investigation.
Eric Marsh’s cell phone is now KNOWN to have simply been sitting in his front shirt pocket along with his compass and signal mirror.
His autopsy report then ( inexplicably ) only reports the signal mirror and the compass being entered into ‘evidence’ and entering the possession of the YCSO police detectives legally charged with investigating the incident… and commonly known to be placing a HIGH evidentiary value on any/all electronic devices.
Eric Marsh’s cell phone then NEVER enters the YCSO ‘chain of evidence’.
But then it suddenly is ‘returned’ to Amanda Marsh.
Can you fill in any of the ‘blanks’, there?
WHO gave Eric Marsh’s cellphone BACK to Amanda Marsh?
>> Holly Neill also said…
>>
>> I obtained Mr. Marsh’s cell phone records from his wife Amanda Marsh
>> over a year ago, in Nov. of 2014 after requesting them much earlier.
>> According to her at that time, no professional or trustworthy person
>> had requested them beforehand.
Is Amanda Marsh including ADOSH in that list of ‘not professional or trustworthy’ persons?
ADOSH specifically requested Eric Marsh’s cellphone records from the City of Prescott.
The City of Prescott was paying Eric Marsh a ‘stipend’ for that phone… so as his employer, they had every right to go direct to the carrier and request call records… just as they did for Darrell Willis’ phone.
Inexplicably… the City of Prescott told ADOSH they could not obtain Eric Marsh’s call records, and they ONLY supplied the call records for Darrell Willis.
Was Ms. Marsh AWARE that this State or Arizona agency charged with investigating the incident DID want those call records?
Who else did Ms. Marsh consider ‘not ‘trustworthy or professional’?
Anyone who didn’t once wear Nomex?
>> Holly Neill also said…
>>
>> Therefore, was this an incomplete investigation? YES..
See above. There is now substantial evidence that it WAS an ‘incomplete investigation’ because there MAY have been some amount of ‘tampering with evidence’… which is, in and of itself, a CRIME.
>> Holly Neill said…
>>
>> Was there a Conspiracy? NO.
Do you, yourself, then, have any explanation why items that were removed directly from the bodies at the start of autopsy examination, with police officers present to ‘collect evidence’… never entered their possession… yet… somehow… magically ‘showed up’ in the hands of family members?
Deborah Pfingston ( Andrew Ashcraft’s mother ) left a comment on this very ongoing discussion that said “Anyone who knew Eric knew that he always carried TWO cellphones with him”.
Did that ever come up in your obviously extended contact/conversation with Ms. Amanda Beno Marsh?
Perhaps Ms. Marsh can contradict Ms. Pfingston and put THAT to rest once and for all?
>> Holly Neill also said…
>>
>> There’s no smoking gun here with “hiding” his cell phone or withholding
>> his cell phone records as evidence, for any reason.
Then you should have NO problems or hesitations at all in answering the following question.
WHO gave Eric Marsh’s cellphone BACK to Amanda Marsh?
*** L:ast ( but not least )…
How is Mr. Maclean’s book coming?
Any word on when it might be finished?
Holly, Please provide a complete copy of Eric Marsh’s cell phone records.
I requested the records from the City of Prescott through the Arizona Public Records Law in 2013 and was turned down, just like ADOSH.
As you must know, the undisputed fact that the cell phone arrived with Mr. Marsh’s body at the Office of the Maricopa County Medical Examiner and did not move into evidence is a story no matter what’s on the cell phone records.
The fact the SAIT never looked at the cell phone records is a story.
As far as I am concerned, there is no evidence whatsoever about Marsh’s cell phone records until they are publicly provided. Put up, or shut up.
I have no intention of MOVING ON. Your doing this to make money. I’m doing this to get to the truth.
John Dougherty
http://www.InvestigativeMedia.com
well said.
You know what?
Given this new statement from this Ms. Holly Neill person…
“I obtained Mr. Marsh’s cell phone records from his wife Amanda Marsh over a year ago, in Nov. of 2014 after requesting them much earlier. According to her at that time, no professional or trustworthy person had requested them beforehand.”
And then this CONFIRMATION from Mr. John Dougherty about his own legal, valid Arizona Open Records request…
“I requested the records from the City of Prescott through the Arizona Public Records Law in 2013 and was turned down, just like ADOSH.”
….it seems it is now reasonable to assume the following.
When these Arizona Public Records requests were received by the City of Prescott for the call records of a phone THEY had been PAYING for… they still then somehow contacted Ms. Amanda ‘Beno’ Marsh and allowed the fulfillment of those Arizona Public Records request to be HER ( personal ) decision.
Darrell Willis TESTIFIED to ADOSH that Eric Marsh was using a ‘company phone’, just like HE was.
Other (public) records indicate that the City of Prescott WAS paying Marsh a ‘stipend’ for his cellphone.
The City of Prescott ( as employer ) did NOT need anyone’s ‘permission’ to fulfill those Arizona Open Records request and obtain/supply the requested records.
Darell Willis’ cell phone records were supplied without incident.
Eric Marsh’s were NOT.
It indicates that the City of Prescott was leaving the ‘decision’ about who should or should not receive the records to someone ‘else’… like Amanda ‘Beno’ Marsh.
It’s worth pointing out right here that just in the last week… this ‘Yarnell Memorial Site Board’ ( that Amanda Marsh herself chose to serve on in a public way ) has suddenly stopped breaking ‘Arizona Open Meetings’ LAWS and they have finally ( and suddenly ) published 2 of the 3 transcripts of their PUBLIC meetings that have always been MISSING for months and months now.
The second to last meeting is when Amanda Marsh was supposed to have returned to this PUBLIC board and report to them about her ‘private polling’ of family members regarding who should or should not be allowed full access to the new Arizona State park, once completed.
The minutes don’t report what she had to say… but the result was that this PUBLIC Board decided, right then and there, to VOTE ( themselves ) about this issue of what members of the PUBLIC should have full access to the PUBLIC park.
They voted 8-2 to NOT allow ‘the PUBLIC’ ( in general ) to have full access to all parts of the park… including ( specifically ) the place where the Hotshots actually died.
The motion that passed 8-2 also contained a DIRECTIVE to the architects and designers of the site to REDESIGN and make sure there is a physical BARRIER present to prevent the PUBLIC from accessing the part of the PUBLIC park that they don’t want them to.
In the official MINUTES… this area is still ACTUALLY being referred to ( in writing ) as…
“The GRAVESITES”.
I kid you not.
Here is a link to those minutes that were finally published, after months of breaking Arizona Open Meetings laws by choosing to NOT publish them within 72 hours following the meeting…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
From the (finally) published minutes of their September 18, 2015 PUBLIC meeting…
——————————————————————-
Discussion was then had by members of the board regarding the fatality site.
Material the crosses will be made out of granite, marble or other?
Should there be a trail from the overlook to the fatality site?
Other hotshot fatality sites around the country allow for individuals to come all the way up to the cross markers.
.
Allowing access to some and not others walks a fine line, and how would we enforce who gets to enter?
.
More discussion was then had by all the member of the board in regard to protect and respect of the fatality site
.
What material should the BARRIER be made out of: gabion, fence, boulders from the surrounding area, or granite
.
If there were no BARRIER, what would stop people from
walking onto the GRAVESITES?
Motion: Rowle Simmons moved that the design sub-committee move forward in the REDESIGN of the fatality site with a BARRIER around the fatality site; and that a trail is constructed from the overlook site to the fatality site. Also, in the design, take into account a place to leave mementos.
Chuck Tidey seconded the motion.
Darrell Willis and Jeff Whitney opposed.
Motion passed 8–2.
——————————————————————-
Both Amanda Marsh and Arizona State Representative Karen Fann voted in FAVOR of instructing the architects to REDESIGN the memorial so the PUBLIC is physically prevented form accessing the area of ( their word ) the GRAVESITES.
Oddly enough… the ONLY two of the 10 PUBLIC Board voting members present who realized this would then make this Wildland Firefighter site different from ALL other existing sites… and saw fit to vote NO to this idea…
Were former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis and
the current Arizona State Forester… Jeff Whitney.
So the actual FIREMAN on the Board were OPPOSED to this idea… but it looks like Amanda Marsh has gotten her way and the wishes of some small subset of family members is now what has determined the actual PUBLIC access policies for this new ( totally taxpayer funded ) Arizona State Park.
I just published my first “diary” regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire on Daily Kos:
“We are collectively killing our Wildland Firefighters”
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2015/12/17/1461017/-We-are-collectively-killing-our-Wildland-Firefighters#comment_58640527
Thank you to everybody for helping me get to the place where I finally feel capable of at least beginning to write about this on a site that gets a million hits per day.
I’m totally bleary-eyed after being up most of last night preparing this story.
Namaste.
Nice work, Marti.
And some GREAT comments already! ( 11 and counting )
Consensus seems to already be…
“YES!… Let’s know EVERYTHING that can be known about what happened that day in order to have the BEST chance of preventing it from happening again.”
Also.. on a handheld in another airport right now so have to keep this short… but just checked Mackenzie autopsy report again.
The Canon camera was found in his left front shirt pocket and not just loose in the body bag. His cellphone was found in his right PANTS pocket
This is completely confusing to me.
How could it be that:
“The Canon camera was found in his left front shirt pocket”
When all the photographs from the Deployment Site show that very same camera sitting in the middle of it.
I am right now sitting here in a state of total and complete cognitive dissonance.
Am I missing something?? Or is someone else?
Or else WTF??
There is a Canon Powershot camera photographed sitting in the middle of the Deployment Site in the photographs taken during the SAIT investigation.
Can anybody prove me wrong on that?
On the other hand, maybe I am wrong and have been wrong all along.
I’ll re-dig through the photos tomorrow.
Marti. Could you post a direct link to the picture that shows what you think us the camera at the deployment site. Thanks
The ‘photo in question’ was first published at the top of an early InvestigativeMedia Article.
It was the first photo we had seen that was taken at the site, following deployment, and it was BEFORE Mr. Dougherty was kind enough to put in all the work he did and make ALL the photos available online.
Here’s the article where that ‘photo’ first appeared…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/twelve-granite-mountain-hotshot-families-file-wrongful-death-claims-seeking-237-5-million/
The photo was taken July 3, 2013 late in the evening ( 6:56 PM ).
That’s the day AFTER all 19 autopsies were performed at the Maricopa County Medical Examiner’s office.
Just after the article appeared is when Marti asked us all to first turn our attention to that ‘object’ on the ground, inside that round metal flange at the right end of that ‘shelter’ remnant where the two investigators were bent over looking at something else.
Direct link to that Photo ( LARGE size ) that was used in the article…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Yarnell-03-July-042-copy.jpg
And here is Marti’s actual (original) post about it, which was the FIRST post she even made in this ongoing discussion…
Direct link to that first comment Marti Reed made…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/state-forestry-divison-fined-nearly-560000-for-mistakes-in-managing-yarnell-hill-fire-that-killed-19-hotshots/#comment-6442
————————-
On December 22, 2013 at 7:03 pm,
Marti Reed said…
You don’t know me from a hole in the wall, but I’ve been following these threads closely for various reasons (including I went to Prescott College and I photograph climate change stuff in Albuquerque). I’m a semi-professional photographer who uses a Canon T3i, and, before I moved into Rebel DSLRs, used higher-end Canon Powershots.. If you start w/the radio they’re looking at and follow straight right to the end of the shelter, I would bet big money you will see the Canon Powershot.
——————————-
Many others ( myself included ) then AGREED with her that the object there on the ground at the ‘end of the shelter’ was, most likely, a Canon camera.
And it has been a ‘consensus’ ever since that that is most likely what that ‘object’ is sitting there on the ground.
By the way… see that spiral notebook that one of the SAIT investigators is obviously holding in his hand?
That notebook has still NEVER surfaced despite many ‘Arizona Open Records’ requests for ALL ‘notes’ and ‘evidence’ used by the SAIT to come up with their final ‘investigation report’.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 17, 2015 at 11:10 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> This is completely confusing to me.
>>
>> How could it be that:
>>
>> “The Canon camera was found in his left front shirt pocket”
>>
>> When all the photographs from the Deployment Site show
>> that very same camera sitting in the middle of it.
It’s time to consider that maybe that is NOT a ‘Canon camera’ sitting there on the ground in those photos.
Maybe it really is just the charred, round end of a water bottle.
One should ALWAYS go back and look at ‘assumptions’ when NEW evidence comes to light. It’s just part of the process.
Direct link to that ‘photo in question’ ( LARGE size ) that was used in the InvestigativeMEDIA article where it first appeared PRIOR to any of the SAIT or ADOSH material being available ‘online’…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Yarnell-03-July-042-copy.jpg
And here is Marti’s actual (original) post about it, which was the FIRST post she ever made in this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/state-forestry-divison-fined-nearly-560000-for-mistakes-in-managing-yarnell-hill-fire-that-killed-19-hotshots/#comment-6442
————————-
On December 22, 2013 at 7:03 pm,
Marti Reed said…
You don’t know me from a hole in the wall, but I’ve been following these threads closely for various reasons (including I went to Prescott College and I photograph climate change stuff in Albuquerque). I’m a semi-professional photographer who uses a Canon T3i, and, before I moved into Rebel DSLRs, used higher-end Canon Powershots.. If you start w/the radio they’re looking at and follow straight right to the end of the shelter, I would bet big money you will see the Canon Powershot.
——————————-
“It’s time to consider that maybe that is NOT a ‘Canon camera’ sitting there on the ground in those photos.
Maybe it really is just the charred, round end of a water bottle.
One should ALWAYS go back and look at ‘assumptions’ when NEW evidence comes to light. It’s just part of the process.”
Ayep!
That’s where I wound up late that night. The thing that I was so sure was a camera that drew me into in the first place………….. I realized must not have been.
I’ve been really busy doing other things since that couple of nights ago when I sat here and thought, wow.
Another vote for the scientific method.
I have a bazillion things to do tomorrow, but I will write a post about this. It’s kind of in the same category as the trucks.
And thanks for spotlighting my DKos diary upstream. Really interesting experience for me.
And OMG the Hollie stuff. Both her thinking and my thinking illustrate how easy it is to come up with a theory and then get wedded to it.
That still doesn’t excuse the fact that Chris’ camera and Eric’s (etc) cellphones and Robert’s (et als????) GPS units were plucked out of the chain of evidence (by whom and when and why??)..
Hope you find this and read this way down here in the weeds.
More later.
Namaste.
And PS.
All of this underscores the serious value of all of us questioning and fact-checking and wrestling with each other regarding what we are saying.
And of us being open to that happening. Even when it’s seriously inconvenient, time-consuming, and uncomfortable.
And, also, regarding all of this, I’m still a little obsessed with wondering who TF was driving that blue truck with the AZDF IMT decal on it that is ubiquitous in so many photos, that I thought, all things considered, was Cougan Carothers’.
And, again, do you agree or not agree with me that that big guy hanging out with Cougan Carothers in the RHR parking lot was Gary Cordes?
OK I’ll re-write this stuff tomorrow.
Gnite.
Yikes, my diary has just exploded tonight.
Many many comments.
People are really interested.
And I am exhausted.
92 comments and counting ( and they are no SMALL comments, either ).
Yes… it’s taken off like a ROCKET.
Fascinating ( intelligent ) discussion right off the bat.
Last line of the long comment from ‘ladywithafan’…
Simply stated…
“The families of the Yarnell hill 19, and all our dedicated fire fighting teams DESERVE the FACTS.”
And from the bottom of czana’s comment…
“I grew up on the lee side of the Mogollon Ridge, but northern Arizona is one large town in an enormous landscape. I didn’t know the Yarnell crew, but they’re part of the family. Not this, not ever again. We pay respect by learning from our loss and never making this mistake again.”
Marti,
Nice work on your website and blog. You certainly have your work cut out for you.
Nice link, thanks Marti for that.
GO FUND ME CAMPAIGN UPDATE
In the process of developing the content for my Go Fund Me campaign, some of the key words I was using triggered an automatic suspension of my campaign because it is a violation of Go Fund Me’s polices to “give monetary rewards, including gift cards.”
And rather than try to figure out how to explain I wanted the money for monetary rewards without using any language saying that, I have asked Go Fund Me to cancel my campaign and refund all of the money contributed so far by donors. I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this effort or was planning on contributing in the future. We tried.
SO…I HAVE A NEW IDEA!
Please send my any information you have that will help us understand what happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew on the Yarnell Hill Fire and I will ask your God, or if you don’t have a God, I will ask mine…to bless you.
I have already paid for the “drop box”, which is a dedicated mail box at a UPS mail box center and rather than ask for a refund, I am going to keep it active for one year in the hope those who have additional information will share what they know.
I can promise you I will keep all information pertaining to you confidential. However, I also encourage you to send me the information anonymously without using your name or return address.
This address is,
Gary Olson
700 Sleater Kinney RD SE,
STE B – 243
Lacy, WA, 98503
Oh…and one more thing. I agree with Bob that we should keep shaking the tree until everything falls out, one way or the other.
Thank you Gary-
I have always been told from people who went to elementary/many HSchools/college with me to now that the one thing they hate about me is what they love about me—
I never give up—
I am in it until the end.
May it be any area to my life-
thousands of homeless ONE ON ONE encounters can say I have shared the tools to have the life that they want for them in a modern society homeless or tools to have the life they want.
Currently helping one in his 90s and his son as they had tough time in YRCH and they had to get to Carson City on the lowest income and 1/2 tank of gas and I guided them on their trails to the places to keep warm, get meals, and help them to get to their goal South Carolina after Carson- He has seizures and is treated different not just because of his disabilities and homelessness but his persona— a woman from ICU waiting room and I shared a common spot and she just lost her husband and I told her anytime of the day call me—I will be there. We are strangers but anyone who sits 16-20 hours in a waiting room awaiting increased health for another- her and I both were there to educate this homeless man and his cute dog Bella as his father was doing rough in ICU. I will never teach a homeless person hand out/enabling behaviors but I will build their confidence to have the kind of life they want even if its on the street because believe it or not a lot of people like the homeless life and I know that world—and I know how harsh but how amazing it is too—perception is key.
Everyone, I know Sonny has been typing lately here but I am not reading what he is saying because my online time is limited- he has rekindled areas from his past and is thinking his life anew-
He reminds me of the hiking trail times March/April 2013 in Sedona right before the YHF— so at peace and calm and really has been a pleasant week—
Sonny is not a tv man but now at ease he is on here or there or reading and he sees these infomercials so he has the NINJA extractor and we do that a lot through the day so if anyone has a special NINJA recipe—share it because I am a oyster juicer kinda gal and this is a new path for me—
We will be celebrating with some from the YH fire this Holiday season so hopefully after my documented project is done I can share but no way after what treatment I saw already in this county will I be premature just because WWTKTT speaks kindly “Joy alleges these mysterious folks”…
THERE IS NO MYSTERY-
THESE ARE REAL PEOPLE-
THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE
AND WELL UNTIL I DO THE PROPER GATHERING OF PROPER DOCUMENTS WHICH DOES NOT HAPPEN QUICKLY I WILL SHARE MOST LIKELY PRIVATELY MAILING FIRST OSHA BRETT STEURER THAN DR TED PUTNAM THAN JOHN DOUGHERTY/IM FOLKS FOR FROM MY EYES I SAW THESE MEN/WOMEN AS THE VITALITY STRENGTH OF BOLDNESS AND REALISM FOR THE CAMPAIGN FOR CHANGE OF THE WAY THEY FIGHT FIRES WITH OUR TAX PAYING DOLLAR AND IN HOPES IT WILL SAVE FUTURE FIREFIGHTERS LIVES—
I AM A STRONG BELIEVER IN THE END IN HIS TIME EVERYTHING WILL BEGIN TO SURFACE AND I KNOW THE PEOPLE WHO DID NOT SPEAK UP AND I BRING IT TO THE FRONT AND YOUR NAME IS ON THERE AND YOU AWAITED FOR ME TO DO IT—IT WON’T BE A GOOD THING FOR THE MISSING ELEMENTS TO KEEP IT IN—
ALL AFFECTED BY THE YHF PLEASE STRONGHOLD THE FAITH—
I WOULD NOT PUT OUT FALSE HOPE OR AN ILLUSION OF POSSIBLE MYSTERIES-
–THAT WWTKTT WILL UNDERSTAND I AM THE WRONG PERSON TO SPEAK UP UNLESS I HAVE ALL MY COOKIES IN ORDER—
and I will always be there for all affected by the YHF.
SMILES.
Matter of fact I meet with someone soon to interview them with sound recorder in regards to them being on the YHF.
I am very much gathering all the proper documents so when I do come forward there will be no doubts from any areas. When I do come forward the MISSING ELEMENTS will be faced with TRUTH as well as CONSEQUENCES and I can look back and say “I always asked with PLEASE to SPEAK UP and you choose not to—bet now you wish you did SPEAK UP before the documents surface”
Merry Christmas World-
happy NEW YEAR 2016…
The Desert Walker
**
** NEW ARTICLE ABOUT CRUCIAL EVIDENCE THAT ENDED UP ‘MISSING’
** AND WAS NEVER EXAMINED BY YCSO POLICE OR THE SAIT…
**
** …INCLUDING ERIC MARSH’S CELL PHONE, WHICH IS NOW KNOWN
** TO HAVE BEEN RECOVERED FROM HIS SHIRT POCKET
InvestigativeMEDIA
Key evidence in Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy never provided to official investigators
Published: December 16, 2015 – by John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/key-evidence-in-yarnell-hill-fire-tragedy-never-provided-to-official-investigators/
Joy was able to get phone records with only her phone number allowing her to know what time she had called her mom and her mom called back on June 30,2013. She talked to other people and those times she had been talking to Marsh and same time her Mom had called so she was able to pinpoint the exact time we met Marsh. Also she had talked to others on the phone and this phone record time gave her the ability to know times related to what we were seeing at various times. I can say Joy is a prolific talker and has so many people to communicate with while due to only about 17% or less hearing I do very little communicating. She makes up for my loss of hearing–and perhaps fortunately some people I can not hear at all–mostly the high pitched types. Joy says that all you need is the phone number since she had lost her phone at the time she requested and got her phone records that day.
Indeed more red flags are up now that I know Amanda refused to give up her phone and the video camera of Chris were not put into evidence even though these were of utmost importance as prime evidence to unveil the real facts of what caused the death of those men. This thing stinks to high heaven.
Joy has written that there are missing elements. I hope when her gag order is expired she tells what the missing elements are. But Joy shouldn’t feel isolated in this matter She is among too many good citizens and even law enforcement authorities who also have been gagged both by verbal and written orders. Whew do we ever have more evidence of collusion and there are certain entities out there deeming us conspiracy theorists.
JD has written a beautiful expose in his last article of the Yarnell fire. Well written and I was glad to see he mentioned Dr. Ted Putnam and another investigator that were both on the South Canyon death investigation that involved the deaths of 14 wild land firefighters. These are the investigators we need who are concerned when obvious prime evidence is dismissed in a death investigation as seen when the camera and Marsh’s cell phone were omitted by the SAIR people.
It is an enigma that some want the truth hidden to keep everyone involved in the deaths of the 19 GMHS crew in a bright light by covering up the real story. We have to face the facts and statues and bull shit will not do justice to the truth. If people were ill suited and poorly trained with disdain for safety rules and cheats on their time sheets then this information needs to be public. Too many want to paint this pretty for selfish reasons, yet forget the people that lost homes and lives lost as an aftermath of this fiasco.
Not insignificant is the negligence that has cost the taxpayer into the millions. Yet we have too damn many people wanting to just shake it off as a God incident that just happened by accident. There is after all said to be no such thing as an accident in this world. Every incident has a cause and there were plenty of contributing factors that culminated in costing millions of dollars and not least the loss of lives, homes, resources. This debacle demands that every factor be brought to light.
Shame on people that have knowledge of facts and have not revealed them. Shame on Donut for his denial and refusal to come forth with what he knows. His PTSD excuse is no excuse when lives and millions of tax payer money are at stake. Shame on anyone withholding evidence as considering the pain and horror the loved ones have had to endure. And may those ass holes that took accolades when they should have hung their heads low in humility—may God give them the Karma treatment in good measure.
Praise goes to men such as we see getting at the truth on this site and expecially John Daugherty for his brave efforts at exposing the truth so avoided by the fire gods and their friends on the state investigating teams. Special thanks for the brilliance of WTKTT, Marti, Gary Olsen, Bob Powers and many others contributing to this site. They are doing what any good soldier would do; the right thing even though there are no monetary rewards and darts instead of accolades. May Karma, God, and many Gods and the Spirits of Good Tidings bless you all and reward you well for the good work you are freely and justly doing for all those affected by this tragedy.
If you take a trip back in the chapters you will see what I told you I had herd.
Their was a Argument between Steed and Marsh
There is a Video with Audio of that argument that a family member has a copy of.
and one or more people that herd this argument over the GM Crew Net.
It is still out there and needs to be released. That is what Dudley eluded to and what McDonough told Willis that Willis took to the City Attorney and to the Attorney Generals office.
This article may be the key to that Video/Audio where it was and who has that specific information.
There is enough proof out there to show Marsh and Steed had this argument and Marsh ordered Steed to bring the crew off the mountain out of the Black and to the Ranch.
I got called a few names for saying that way back but I still believe it to be true and covered up Held back for the obvious reasons.
So I guess we keep shaking the tree till every thing falls out.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 16, 2015 at 1:58 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> If you take a trip back in the chapters you will see what
>> I told you I had herd.
>>
>> Their was a Argument between Steed and Marsh
>>
>> There is a Video with Audio of that argument that a family
>> member has a copy of. and one or more people that herd
>> this argument over the GM Crew Net.
Bob… remind us again… why we can’t know more about WHO you heard this from… or WHO has the video?
Is there ANYTHING you can tell us that might help us ‘run this to ground’?
Are the people involved just waiting for some ‘trigger’ event before they come forward with this… or ( based on what you seem to know already )… is it likely they never will unless FORCED to do so?
Just curious.
WTKTT The info came to me from a source that did not want their name released.
The Info was their is a Video/Audio of An argument between Marsh and steed also can be confirmed from 1 or more people that heard it over the Radio. A Family member received it from their son before the burn over.
There were three requests from Marsh for Steed to bring the Crew down to the Ranch/Z. The last request was a order to Steed to come to the Ranch.
This is the same info that was Confirmed by the Prescott City attorney that he had learned from Willis who heard it from McDonough.
They evidently took this to the State Attorney.
This I also believe is the Argument mentioned by Mr. Dudley.
No Name I was given and only a Phone number I did not copy as I promised I would not release.
My question was maybe there is more video not released from the phone that included that???????? with the other 9 sec. clips.
Or its another sent message from another crewman??????
I was not given who sent the message or Parent name.
Only that it was out there.
Because if it was the third communication that Marsh made a stern order that Steed take the men to the Ranch, then Marsh must have been ordered to take the men down–how else would he have been so adamant. Whether he communicated that there were millions of dollars of important equipment to guard or other justifications or threats that convinced Steed he should risk the men’s lives in a suicide attempt. We do not know but can bet that many who have testified part of the truth and held back crucial evidence will eventually come forward. Donut is one that already admitted to his half truth testimony and ought to be up on criminal charges for withholding evidence. But he was not the only one privy to those conversations. Was there a back burn started or to be started to protect the Helms and North Glen Isla? With the dozer unloaded and busting a wall along north Glen Isla border I do not know if there was also evidence of a back burn or a dozer line started so GMHS were ordered down to do a back burn there.
The lady and Joy named her, has lately deceased and had the photos of the two quads that were at the fire and lightening strike on Friday as the fire started. No investigator official has looked into that. Because the yellow and white copter that we saw fan the fire accidentally or on purpose? on Sunday the 30th around 10:300-11:30 am was also the color of the quads. I thought they might be also a BLM ownership. Dr. Putnam told me not necessarily so. Totally unimaginable that investigators did not look into that evidence.
I remembered this quote by Columbian drug dealer Pablo Escobar from the TV series title ‘Narcos – “LIES ARE NECESSARY WHEN THE TRUTH IS TOO BAD (DIFFICULT) TO BELIEVE.”
That may be one of the justifications the SAIT settled on this conclusion: “The [SAIT] found NO INDICATION OF NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS ACTIONS, OR VIOLATIONS OF POLICY OR PROTOCOL.” (emphasis mine) SAIR (2013) p. 4
“5. The [SAIT] recommends that the State of Arizona request the NWCG and/or Wildland Fire Leadership Council (WFLC) to charter a team of interagency wildland fire and human factors experts to conduct further analysis of this event and the wildland fire communications environment.” SAIR (2013) p. 44
The latter SAIT recommendation has NOT been accomplished or even discussed as of November 2015 based on my AZ Records Request for public records on this.
“First establish a conclusion, then find the facts to fit that conclusion” – Hochderffer Fire Shelter Deployment Investigation – Human Factors briefing (AZ COF – 1996). ALL fatality and/or serious incident fires, i.e. Los Alamos – Cerro Grande Fire (2000) use this method.
“The search for truth implies a duty. One must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true.” Albert Einstein
Robert the Second says December 20, 2015 at 10:47 am
WTKTT,
I did a quick search for the “God” word and who posted it in both Chapters XVII and XVIII and found the following:
“God” was posted 47 times in Chapter XVII and 36 times in Chapter XVIII, by the following posters in both chapters, in descending order:
(XVII) Sonny + Gary + Joy + WTKTT + RTS + Bob
(XVIII) Gary + Sonny + WTKTT + Joy + Woodsman + RTS + Bob
So, it is very clear to me that I was the only one chastised and/or warned by you. Sonny, Joy, and Gary mention “God’s” name many more times than any of us, yet they received no such chastisement. Nor did anyone else.
Therefore, it appears that I am already fitting the “try to keep THAT kinda stuff to a minimum” standard that you have set for me alone and nobody else. And your reason for the disparate treatment is what?
In Psalms 14:1 and 53:1, the Bible states ” The fool has said in his heart “There is no God.”‘ NOT preaching here, just verifying like we do with all other postings.
Just recently landed on this after an insanely busy day. Yikes.
What I wrote on JD’s article:
“Thank you for publishing this, JD!
As the one who first followed/documented Chris’s camera, my mind is right now a bit boggled by this new information you have provided here.
“Autopsy records for MacKenzie show a cell phone and a Canon camera were present in the body bag that contained MacKenzie’s remains. ”
I’m really having a cognitive dissonance regarding the reporting that his camera accompanied his body. Because his camera was photographed on the site after his body had already been transported to Phoenix.
There is a whole bunch of massively fishy going on here.”
Chris’s camera was photographed on the deployment site. There is no way it could have been transported to Phoenix with his body.
As I pieced together what most likely happened to his camera, all things considered, was that the folks (ahem) from the Prescott Fire Department most likely had to have been the ones who gathered up his camera from the site after the photographs were taken.
There is some seriously hard-corely weird stuff going on here.
WTKTT you wrote about 26 phone records. Where are you getting that 26 number? Are you saying there were 26 phones? I’m completely confused.
BOOM!!
JD’s article is a block-buster. I’m so glad he has decided to return to the fuster-cluck that is the Yarnell Fire. We need his amplifier.
The reason I determined that it was, most likely, the Prescott Fire Department that picked up Chris’s camera from the site was this.
As the site was being photographed during the SAIR visit/investigation, the items on the site were being numbered and photographed as the YCSO was removing them from the site. Via the photographs, Chris’s camera was not removed from the site during that visit/investigation. It was like it was INVISIBLE.
It was never tagged, or numbered, or focused on, or ANYTHING.
After the visit/investigation, whatever was left was turned over to the Prescott Fire Department to remove and decide to do what they decided to do with.
That would have included Chris’s camera.
I can’t even remember right now, what I wrote way back when, about what happened next. According to what I read etc the next thing that happened was that it did go to Chris’s father when he picked it up in Phoenix.
I’m thinking out loud here. And having a hard time doing that.
I thought that, since Chris’s camera must have been picked up by PFD, it must have been taken first to Prescott and then to Phoenix. And I blamed Darrell Willis for having had a hand in that. And I was seriously PO’d about that. Because I was seriously PO’d about the fact that it was never entered into the chain of evidence. And I wondered WHY??
Somebody, after the deployment site was investigated/photographed/cleared, took possession of that camera and, eventually, delivered it to Phoenix. But it didn’t go with the body. It truly didn’t. No matter what anybody is saying. It didn’t.
Details. Details. Details. Do they matter?
Reply to Marti Reed post December 17, 2015 at 12:09 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Details. Details. Details. Do they matter?
Of course they do.
When people are trying to bullshit you… that’s pretty much ALL that matters.
Real details. Real FACTS.
Whether that REALLY is ‘another’ Canon camera sitting out there at the site inside that round metal flange… you can still feel free to remain totally PO’ed about the obvious attempt(s) to prevent Christopher’s Canon from entering the official chain of evidence.
Based on what we know NOW ( thanks to John Dougherty ), it’s actually even WORSE than we suspected.
Christopher’s camera appears to have walked right out the door of the Medical Examiner’s office after it was actually, physically removed ( and inspected… and detailed as ‘working’ ) from his DEAD BODY.
And right under the noses of police officers who were there for the specific purpose of COLLECTING such items.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 16, 2015 at 11:34 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> “Autopsy records for MacKenzie show a cell phone and a Canon
>> camera were present in the body bag that contained MacKenzie’s remains. ”
Not just any Canon Camera, either.
The exact same make/model as is recorded in the EXIF metadata
of the MacKenzie photos and videos that eventually appeared in the SAIT
investigation FOIA release.
>> Marti also said
>>
>> I’m really having a cognitive dissonance regarding the reporting
>> that his camera accompanied his body. Because his camera was
>> photographed on the site after his body had already been
>> transported to Phoenix.
Yes.
So either MacKenzie had TWO of them… or the one they say was found
in his body bag is the same one also seen sitting on the ground out at the deployment site AFTER his body had already gone to the coroner’s office.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> There is a whole bunch of massively fishy going on here.”
>>
>> Chris’s camera was photographed on the deployment site.
>> There is no way it could have been transported to Phoenix with his body.
This certainly deserves a ‘better’ explanation.
Autopsy was performed July 2… but the date of the report we are seeing now is some time AFTER that autopsy was performed.
Creative writing?
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> WTKTT you wrote about 26 phone records. Where are you getting
>> that 26 number? Are you saying there were 26 phones?
That is EXACTLY how many cellphone numbers SAIT Co-Lead Jim Karels was asking Verizon Wireless to ‘preserve’ the RTTs on in that FAX he sent them on July 11, 2013… jus tshortly after the tragedy.
Look in the ‘Correspondence’ folder of the SAIT Dropbox. There’s only one PDF file in it and it contains a copy of this FAX from Jim Karels to Verizon Wireless.
The 26 cellphone numbers he was asking them to preserve the RTTs for are all REDACTED so we don’t know exactly what numbers they are… but there are definitely 26 ‘blacked out’ cellphone numbers in Jim Karel’s FAX.
Soooooooooo. A little ways downstream, I brought up the possibility of a NIOSH investigation. WTKTT replied:
“WantsToKnowTheTruth says DECEMBER 14, 2015 AT 10:31 PM
Reply to Marti Reed post on
December 14, 2015 at 5:06 pm
>> Marti Reed said…
>>
>> I couldn’t agree more.
>>
>> NIOSH has already been investigating
>> wildfire fatalities. I’m sure they would
>> be delighted to expand.
Well… I don’t think anyone will be ‘delighted’ to now have the primary responsibility to figure out why some dead Wildland Firefighters got themselves dead… but I hear ya.”
To which I replied:
“Marti Reed says DECEMBER 15, 2015 AT 6:34 PM
Yes, perhaps “delighted” was not the best adjective to use.
But I do think they are concerned.
I’ve been collecting some links to some articles, etc, documenting what they are doing regarding Wildland Fire LODDs. It’s pretty significant imho.
Still trying to figure out what, exactly, can trigger a NIOSH investigation into a Wildland Fire LODD.
They actually offered to investigate Yarnell, but were (ahem) “turned down.”
Their focus is, also, not to “assign blame.” But they ARE focused on recognizing, documenting, and advocating for organizational and systemic changes to stop fire-fighters (including wildland fire-fighters) from being relentlessly killed on fires.
For that, I think they are worth paying attention to, which I am.”
From Wildfire Today, May 15, 2012:
“NIOSH releases report on CR 337 fire, fatality in Texas”
http://wildfiretoday.com/2012/05/15/niosh-releases-report-on-cr-337-fire-fatality-in-texas/
“The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has released a report on the death of BLM Hotshot crewmember Caleb Hamm, who died from hyperthermia, a heat related illness (HRI). Mr. Hamm was working on the CR 337 fire near Mineral Wells, Texas with the Bonneville Interagency Hotshot Crew when he collapsed and died July 7, 2011.
His parents, including his mother, Lynette Hamm, believe the official BLM report on the fatality has errors and suspects that the agency has not been completely forthcoming in an attempt to hide errors or mistakes in judgement. Ms. Hamm has said she wants all the facts to be disclosed so that other parents of firefighters will not have to bury their sons and daughters.”
The NIOSH investigation basically concurred with the BLM investigation, but it also highlighted the need for increased awareness of the potentially fatal dangers of hyperthermia on fires.
Apparently, according to the comments, there are still conflicting narrative regarding both reports’ narratives.
When I said:
“They actually offered to investigate Yarnell, but were (ahem) ‘turned down'”, that came from this, from FireFighterNation (2013):
From Investigation to Action
“The history of NIOSH’s Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program, and how the fire service can better apply lessons learned from this vital program”
http://www.firefighternation.com/article/firefighter-safety-and-health/investigation-action
“If the cliché version of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, some could argue that many in the U.S. fire service should be running an asylum.
It has been 15 years since the National Institute for Occupational Health and Safety (NIOSH) began its Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program (FFFIPP). Those familiar with the program are generally pleased with the investigations, which conclude with recommendations on how to prevent similar incidents in the future.
While the FFFIPP has surely done its part to reduce firefighter fatalities since 1998, perhaps the same can’t be said for some people in the fire service who seem to ignore NIOSH findings, therefore perpetuating the still-alarmingly high rate of firefighter fatalities. After all, firefighters in 2013 are not dying in any new way; they are dying from the same things that killed firefighters 15 years ago: poor incident command, lack of proper training, lack of risk vs. gain analysis … the list goes on.”
“The FFFIPP would like to get more involved in wildfire fatality investigations, which are now usually handled by state wildfire groups, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) or the National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG). Assistance was offered, but declined, for the Yarnell Hill Fire that resulted in the deaths of 19 firefighters in Arizona in June. The Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation Report has been criticized by some as being too benign, unwilling to hold any organization or person accountable.”
I found it really interesting reading this article. The parallels between the systemic problems they are seeing, regarding structural fire LODDs, and what we are seeing, regarding wildland fire LODDs, are striking, imho.
>> While the FFFIPP has surely done its part to reduce firefighter
>> fatalities since 1998, perhaps the same can’t be said for some
>> people in the fire service who seem to ignore NIOSH findings.
Take the OS out of the acronym and you have a new acronym that actually defines the problem…
NIH = Not Invited Here
FIFTEEEN YEARS this program has been up and running… and they still aren’t even allowed to even compel ANY witness to testify even when they ARE investigating something.
They are a RESEARCH organization. People with slide rules ( and college educations… oh my! ).
The fire ‘mafia’ just thinks they are a bunch of ‘geeks’ who need to mind their own fucking business.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 15, 2015 at 7:24 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I’ve been collecting some links to some articles, etc, documenting what they
>> are doing regarding Wildland Fire LODDs. It’s pretty significant imho.
Yes. These people are a branch of the CDC ( Centers For Disease Control ) and they take their responsibilities seriously.
As you can see in the “Texas hyperthermia” case report ( Caleb Hamm… but THEY are NEVER allowed to use any NAMES or even the names of any Fire Departments )… they like to leave “no stone unturned”.
However… the problem is they “never have access to all the stones”.
No power to force any interviews, no sworn statements, no authority to ever even determine ‘compliance’ issues or influence ‘compliance’ with anything.
So only in rare cases do they even ‘get the full story’ since they have no POWER to make SURE they do.
All interviews are VOLUNTARY.
Big fat red flag.
>> Marti
>>
>> Still trying to figure out what, exactly, can trigger a NIOSH investigation
>> into a Wildland Fire LODD.
Me too. Best I can figure is that once they hear about one… they start sending “Oh please, pretty please… please Mr. Fireman, sir… can we come and figure out how you killed your people? We really do WANT to. Pretty please?”
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> They actually offered to investigate Yarnell, but were (ahem) “turned down.”
Of course they were.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Their focus is, also, not to “assign blame.”
It’s not just their ‘focus choice’. They have NO AUTHORITY to do it.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> But they ARE focused on recognizing, documenting, and advocating for
>> organizational and systemic changes to stop fire-fighters (including
>> wildland fire-fighters) from being relentlessly killed on fires.
Yes.. but ONLY in the context of the scope of their parent company… the Centers For Disease Control.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> For that, I think they are worth paying attention to, which I am.”
Yes. They are. I’m not ‘downplaying’ their ABILITIES ( Just read the Hamm report. Wow. They’ve got some serious geek-power there ).
It’s just that they have NO POWER or AUTHORITY to be an ‘Investigative Agency’.
They are a RESEARCH organization… under the CDC.
That’s gonna be a huge bridge to gap.
About like suddenly asking the Brookings Institution and the ‘geek-power’ they have to suddenly be responsible for investigating the mafia.
Maybe the following sums it up.
It repeats some of what you said above but this is the actual DISCLAIMER from the bottom of their OWN investigation into the ‘Texas hyperthermia’ case ( Not even allowed to use Caleb Hamm’s NAME ).
Notice the SERVER where their ‘reports’ get published.
The PARENT company’s server… at the ‘Center For Disease Control’. ( CDC.GOV )…
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face201117.html
Their own DISCLAIMER at the bottom of the report…
——————————————————————————–
The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), an institute within the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), is the federal agency responsible for conducting research and making recommendations for the prevention of work-related injury and illness. In 1998, Congress appropriated funds to NIOSH to conduct a fire fighter initiative that resulted in the NIOSH “Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program” which examines line-of-duty-deaths or on duty deaths of fire fighters to assist fire departments, fire fighters, the fire service and others to prevent similar fire fighter deaths in the future. The agency does not enforce compliance with State or Federal occupational safety and health standards and does not determine fault or assign blame. Participation of fire departments and individuals in NIOSH investigations is voluntary. Under its program, NIOSH investigators interview persons with knowledge of the incident who agree to be interviewed and review available records to develop a description of the conditions and circumstances leading to the death(s). Interviewees are not asked to sign sworn statements and interviews are not recorded. The agency’s reports do not name the victim, the fire department or those interviewed. The NIOSH report’s summary of the conditions and circumstances surrounding the fatality is intended to provide context to the agency’s recommendations and is not intended to be definitive for purposes of determining any claim or benefit.
—————————————————————————————
Both Joy and I did suffer hypothermia that day of the deaths of the GMHS. We had to stop several times and I knew I was being adversely affected by the extreme heat of the day, yet we pressed on in spite of the exposure and thermal sickness we were both experiencing. Fortunately we did since I had no idea until I saw that video on U-Tube of the back burn being done above the Shrine. That video has since been deleted but definitely was there seen by both Joy and me and who knows who else. That was damn close to the Helms and once the wind reversed blew up over that ridge and straight up toward the Helms, causing my surprise that we only escaped by ten minutes or so. You see the main fire was quite distant north of the bowl when we left to the west side of the Weaver Range to get into a safer area with sparse vegetation. We could have dropped off to Highway 89 but had our vehicle on Foot Hills Drive and there should have been ample time to cut across to it, yet we did not know that video why people were already fleeing from the Foot Hills area just below the Helms.
So there are a couple factors to consider.
Joy just got off the phone with a lady that just lost her husband that was in ICU the same time I was. She informed Joy that there were ten people in ICU the day I was brought in and that it was known I was considered the most critical of all the patients in ICU. In fact they had called Joy to come there to sign me off life support since I had previously signed a paper saying not to keep me on life support if it appeared I was gone anyway. Joy signed since
she has authority by me to do so. I continued to live but sadly all the nine others that were on ICU have since deceased and here I am writing you. Well I looked at my odds to live out another year after the four heart attacks and they are one in ten that I can make it for another year. How about those for odds==I was the one who disobeyed orders and ran for the rocks and boulders–they liked me and saved me.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 15, 2015 at 7:24 pm
>> Marti Reed said…
>>
>> “NIOSH releases report on CR 337 fire, fatality in Texas”
http://wildfiretoday.com/2012/05/15/niosh-releases-report-on-cr-337-fire-fatality-in-texas/
“The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has released a report on the death of BLM Hotshot crewmember Caleb Hamm, who died from hyperthermia, a heat related illness (HRI). Mr. Hamm was working on the CR 337 fire near Mineral Wells, Texas with the Bonneville Interagency Hotshot Crew when he collapsed and died July 7, 2011.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Still trying to figure out what, exactly, can trigger a NIOSH investigation
>> into a Wildland Fire LODD.
Still not sure what that ‘trigger’ is, but I think the ‘trigger’ for the ‘Caleb Hamm’ incident was pretty clear.
It was obviously a ‘dropped dead’ situation and since NIOSH’s parent company is the CDC ( Center For Disease Control )… this one was ‘right up their alley’ and undoubtedly within their ‘area of expertise’.
It was hyperthermia. Heat stress plus.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> They actually offered to investigate Yarnell, but were (ahem) “turned down.”
If there had been any real evidence of any ‘illness related’ issue or cause… I think that MIGHT have also resulted in their own ‘approved’ investigation.
For now… the USFS seems to acknowledge that if it DOES appear to be ‘heat stress’ or ‘medically’ related… then yea… what the heck… let the CDC guys have a look at it.
For anything else… fuhgetaboutit.
I’m posting the Yavapai County Sheriffs Office report (and link) that includes a lot of information on the GMHS cell phone evidence chain VERBTIM from the narrative.
“The only items that were separated from the personal belongings were cell phones. Data down loads will be attempted for the state investigators and the phones will
then be returned to the fire department and eventually the families.”
“On 07/08/13 I spoke to Det. Josh Brazell who said he would not be able to
Cellebrite most of the phones due to their condition. Cellebrite is a program
that can pull data off of a phone. Brazell did say he was able to cellebrite
the phone associated with Christopher MacKenzie. He was not able to cellebrite
phones #401 and #405, which were collected at the scene on 7/3/13, due to their
condition. He was not able to cellebrite the phone associated with Robert
Caldwell because it is a password protected Apple phone. #401 and #405 are not
associated with any particular fire fighter at this point. I had evidence assign
#326 to MacKenzie’s phone and #327 to Caldwell’s phone.”
“On 07/09/13 I received the cellebrite information for item 326 (MacKenzie
phone). I made a copy of the information for YCSO as a backup and gave Randy
Okron with the state investigators team a copy. I was advised that another phone
was located at the scene during a final comb through by the fire department and
that phone had been melted to a backpack. There was apparently some coloration
left on the phone and the information I received was the only firefighter that
had a phone of that color was Clayton Whitted. I picked up the phone from PFD
the next day (7/10/13) and I assigned it number #324. The phone was an I Phone.
It should be noted that in the packaging for this phone were a number of nails
and eyelets that appeared to come from a boot or boots. I separated these from
the phone, placed them in their own package, and assigned these items number
325. I articulated in the evidence sheet that items 324 and 325 had been
packaged together.”
“On 07/09/13 I spoke to Capt. Harrison 602-478-2954 of ACTIC. ACTIC analyzes many of the phones we have problems getting data out of. Capt. Harrison indicated they would gladly assist.
“From shelter #305 a cell phone (320) and a knife (322) were removed. It should be noted that we did not previously attempt to remove any items attached to the shelters as we left those items in place for the state investigators.”
“On 07/11/13 I dropped off phones #320, 324, 327, 401, and 405 to ACTIC. Analyst
Roger Hoover took the items. Roger called me back later and said he could not
bypass the password on 327. He was going to contact Apple. He asked if he could
pry open the burnt phones to get to the motherboard of the phones as he may able
to retrieve data in that manner. I told him data retrieval was important and to
do what was necessary but while doing so I asked him to preserve the integrity
of the phones as much as possible as these may be going back to the families. An
ACTIC Examination Request Form was filled out and that form articulates what I
asked ACTIC to do with the phones. A chain of custody form was also filled out.
On 07/12/13 I spoke to Randy Okron (406-531-1570) and told him we were having
trouble getting into one of the phones and asked if he had any contact with the
family liaisons. Randy told me he did and would see what he could do about
getting a password for the Caldwell phone. Randy was provided a copy of the
ACTIC form I filled out.”
“This has been my involvement in this case up to this point.
“Date, Time, Reporting Officer:
Tue Jul 16 10:43:08 MST 2013 Det J McDormett #5472
Report Approved:
Sergeant John Johnson #6863
Wed Jul 17 09:58:46 MST 2013”
http://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/images/incidents/documents/2013-06-30-yarnell-19-yavapai-co-sd-case-rpt.pdf
Ayep. Thanks for posting this, RTS.
We worked on this a lot, way back when these records were published.
I think we may have thought, then, that, eventually, something would be “released” regarding them.
But, apparently, what ever was mined from those phones has gone into that big locked filing cabinet that contains a whole lot of other stuff, including the licked and sealed envelope that includes the unredacted Blue Ridge Hotshots notes that, WOOPS, weren’t redacted enough to redact Cory Ball’s statements regarding being assigned by Gary Cordes to go (using a Yarnell Fire Department ATV) into Glen Ilah to check out the possibility of putting a last-ditch Hail Mary Dozer line in.
I’m working on a list (started in the last days of Chapter XVII) of things that REALLY need to be FOIA’d. Thanks for reminding me to add this to my list.
Marti,
How about this reminder to answer my email Prescott College question in an email back.
And remember that FOIA is Federal only and Records Requests are for State and Municipal
Joy wonders why in the beginning when the media showed the loved ones, the people who knew them, people who were on the YHF in the media, etc that were deeply distraught on the loss and have come to the hikers in private and even hiked some—how come they never engage to humanize the tragedy for us- how come Joy has to be a voice for the locals and you. What holds you back? The comments like Bill Gabbert who feel it is time to move forward and lessons are learned. It can’t be without all details. Just the lessons the HIGHER UPS want you to know or learn.
Sonny==You knew a certain narrative was being constructed when important individuals and investigators were being discouraged from visiting the area where the men worked and went down. Men well known in fire death investigations with credentials well known were denied access so that they had to turn to the hikers to find a legal way in to see and assess by their professional experience what had occurred to cause 19 deaths. Their sole intentions were to determine what could be learned from this debacle that would save future wild land fire fighter lives. An honorable intention indeed. You would think the Fire Fighting gods that run the show would have jumped on the honor of having others who carry such knowledge and experience in these fire deaths add their evaluations to the investigation. But no, suspiciously they were busy or otherwise denied access to these people. We gladly as hikers took the honor of hiking those people that were denied or could not find access and directions to the area legally. And Joy made sure that each had proper land passes–something many did not know were needed. I would and will do it again, even after three heart attacks, Gary Olsen would be the first with his great expertise in investigations but WTKTT, Marti, Bob Powers and any other concerned citizen would be welcome. This access in a legal way can not be denied any person interested in seeing the area and its relevance to the death of those men and how tax payer dollars covered this catastrophe.
four heart attacks. typo.
Gary Olsen was refused.
???
we eyewitnessed that fire and we are not only refused access but Joy was served officially.
???????
**
** ALTERNATE SAFETY ZONE FOR BLUE RIDGE WAS TO ‘BURN OUT’
** THE SESAME CLEARING AREA WHERE THEIR BUGGIES WERE PARKED
>> On December 10, 2015 at 7:51 pm, calvin said…
>>
>> Rts. Just imagine the video Brian Frisby could have taken when he was in the
>> green picking up McDonough? Also. Per memory. The BRH were planning
>> to burn out around themselves if they were trapped. According to SAIR?
>> On December 10, 2015 at 8:15 pm, Robert the Second (RTS) replied…
>>
>> Calvin, NOT so from what I know and from the SAIR. I just searched the
>> SAIR again and found NO reference to that.
>> On December 11, 2015 at 4:24 am, calvin replied…
>>
>> I do remember reading that the BRH SZ was on highway 89, or burn out
>> around themselves, or their buggies. But honestly, I can not remember
>> where that was stated.
You are exactly correct, calvin… but it was in the YIN ( not the SAIR ).
From PDF page 8 of the SAIT’s ‘Yarnell Investigation Notes’ ( YIN ) document,
in the middle of the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ interview notes…
———————————————————————————————–
1300-1400 Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown drive the road Hwy 89, it’s lined with random people, media. They had about an hour before the fire was going to be hitting Hwy 89 based on the fire behavior they were seeing. Cory Ball was working the dozer pushing it back to the Shrine trying to establish some line.
Around 1500 they want to pull the dozer out to go north for structure protection.
On the north end they hear confusion and this is before the column starts to rise. They are seeing black smoke, it’s dark, flame lengths are impressive, spotting to the north, the fire is running towards the ICP.
Jason Clawson says “Another western day!”
They say they have an hour before the trigger point to start evacuating.
BR knows they don’t have an hour.
Tied in with Cordes for the first time, at this time he didn’t want to evacuate Yarnell, the trigger point was the ridge. They needed 4 people to move the buggies at 1530, they briefed the crew there.
First escape route was to the highway and out.
Second escape route was back to the junction and burn out the grass.
—————————————————————————————————–
Wtk. What is the distance of the two escape routes BR identified? Starting from the location of the br crew and dozer known from Cory Ball’s pictures? Thanks in advance. Also. There was a comment over at wildfire today (possibly from a BR crewmember) stating they would have made the same decision as GM. I agree that the autopsy reports should be required reading. Especially for the ICT of the YHF.
Reply to calvin post on December 15, 2015 at 4:01 am
>> calvin asked…
>>
>> What is the distance of the two escape routes BR identified?
>> Starting from the location of the br crew and dozer known
>> from Cory Ball’s pictures? Thanks in advance.
Well, calvin, as you well know… the YIN document is all ‘helter skelter’ and it’s hard to trust that things are being reported ‘sequentially’… but if you read that section above the only conclusion to make is that the Blue Ridge crew was being briefed about these TWO different ‘escape routers’ right around the 1530 ( 3:30 PM ) timeframe, as they were now all ‘spread out’ on that Cutover Trail and beginning to ‘improve’ it.
That also matches the TIME of that picture that Cory Ball took of BR Captain Trueheart Brown standing there on that Cutover Trail looking at the dozer and some of the BR crew a few hundred feet away.
That’s the photo where you definitely noticed the word ‘Brown’ on the back of his Blue Helmet.
Cory Ball IMG_1882
EXIF Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 15:26:58 ( 3:26:58 PM )
Photo of Captain Brown taken on the Cutover Trail with dozer in the background.
NOTE: Device was a network-connected Apple iPhone 4s so time can be trusted.
Captain Brown’s GPS location for 1526 ( 3:26 PM ) is 34.226187, -112.763903
This puts him standing exactly on the Cutover Trail itself, at the WEST end of it.
*** First escape route was to the highway and out.
The FULL distance from where Brown is seen standing in that IMG_1882 photo all the way over to the Shrine Road, and then on out to the point where Shrine road intersects with Highway 89 would be…
1.31 mile(s) / 2,313 yards / 6,940 feet
Keep in mind, though, that at this time ( 1526 / 3:26 PM ), the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers and other vehicles were already ‘staged’ at the Youth Camp out there at the end of Shrine Road, less than half the distance to Highway 89 itself.
The distance from where Brown was standing in IMG_1882 to where the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers were staged at the Youth Camp was…
0.66 mile(s) / 1,155 yards / 3,465 feet
*** Second escape route was back to the junction and burn out the grass.
The YIN note from the Blue Ridge interview specifically says ‘the junction’.
Since the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers were ( at 1526 ) already ‘staged’ over at the Youth Camp at the end of Shrine road… then this ‘junction’ reference must simply mean that point where the Cutover Trail ‘intersected’ with the Sesame Clearing area to the WEST of where they were now working.
Given that assumption… the distance from where Brown was standing in IMG_1882 out WEST, to the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area ( the grass ) was VERY, very short… and only…
0.1 miles(s) ( 1/10 of 1 mile ) / 168 yards / 503 feet.
Whether that ‘area’ there at that ‘junction’ was a valid ‘Safety Zone’… I don’t know.
Remember that a valid ‘Safety Zone’ is always a place where you are supposed to be able to just sit comfortable in a lawn chair and ‘watch the pretty fire’… and NEVER have to ‘go for your shelter’ OR be exposed to either smoke inhalation or thermal injury.
But it certainly looks like if Blue Ridge had been ‘cut off’ from their primary escape route to the northeast and back to their buggies… they could have probably survived a ‘deployment’ out there at that ‘junction’ of the Cutover Trail and the Sesame Clearing Area.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Also. There was a comment over at wildfire today (possibly from a BR
>> crewmember) stating they would have made the same decision as GM.
Do you have a LINK to that comment and/or article?
The only person I can remember saying they would have probably “done the same thing” Granite Mountain did was Task Force Leader Trainee Tyson Esquibel, when he was being interviewed by ADOSH.
He said ( basically ) “Yea… it’s all about structures and trying to help the PUBLIC”.
From PDF page 100 of Tyson Esquibel’s ADOSH interview…
Spoken like a true ‘Hybrid Firefighter’.
Q = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator
A = TLFD(t) – Task Force Leader Trainee – Tyson Esquibel
————————————————————————
4452 Q: Is that something that as a firefighter, wild land person, you’re gonna be
4453 thinking about or as a crew boss?
4454
4455 A: Yeah. I’m not sure what they were thinking up there. Again, I don’t wanna
4456 speculate on what they were thinking, but, yeah, I think, uh, I would wanna be
4457 somewhere where I could help and, uh, and – and make a difference, try to
4458 help people out.
4459
4460 Q: Right.
4461
4462 A: Yeah.
4463
4464 Q: So, if we got, uh, any opportunity to get down there, ‘cause we know there’s
4465 people wandering around. We gotta help ‘em, structures, whatever, we might
4466 go.
4467
4468 A: Yeah, if I was up there and our – our safety was taken care of and now we’re
4469 looking at public safety – there’s definitely a threat to public safety there…
4470
4471 Q: Right.
4472
4473 A: …then yes, we would wanna be down there.
4474
4475 Q: So you’re gonna move?
4476
4477 A: If I was up there, I (unintelligible).
4478
4479 Q: So you’re crew boss. You’re gonna take the 20 guys and you’re gonna move.
4480
4481 A: I’m not sure what they did – what their decisions were.
4482
4483 Q: Well, I’m saying you.
4484
4485 A: Um, yeah, probably as…
4486
4487 Q: I don’t – I don’t know if we’ll ever know…
4488
4489 A: …as long as…
4490
4491 Q: …what he’s thinking.
4492
4493 A: …as long as I had our safety accom- — uh, taken care of, and it wasn’t
4494 compromised, then yeah, I would wanna go help out the public if – if they
4495 were in danger, yes.
————————————————————————
If Arizona Forestry wins its current appeal in court… then someone needs to then
INFORM Mr. Esquibel that he is NEVER, EVER to think it is in ANY way his
duty to protect THE PUBLIC… and it never HAS been.
If Arizona Forestry wins their current appeal… then they are now forever and
anon ONLY responsible for what is directly ON ‘State Forest lands… and NOTHING ELSE.
No ‘citizens’, no ‘structures’.. End of story.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> I agree that the autopsy reports should be required reading. Especially
>> for the ICT of the YHF.
I think reading these autopsy reports alone could do more to change the attitudes of some Wildland Firefighters towards SAFETY and the RULES OF THEIR PROFESSION than any number of detailed ‘accident reports’.
After reading these reports ( closely )… if any WFFs are still under the impression that if/when your time comes that thing happen quickly… OR that you can just stand up, take a deep breath, and go sit at the right hand of Valhala, or something…
…then they need to read the reports AGAIN… because they didn’t ‘get it’.
The only cure is prevention.
WTKTY,
You posted: “Remember that a valid ‘Safety Zone’ is always a place where you are supposed to be able to just sit comfortable in a lawn chair and ‘watch the pretty fire’… and NEVER have to ‘go for your shelter’ OR be exposed to either smoke inhalation or thermal injury..”
Mostly untrue. A Safety Zone I d somewhere to retreat to where NP FIRE SHELTER is needed.
I’ve been in many hot, very smokey, ember stormy, Safety Zones and felt perfectly safe.
Auto-correct CORRECTION
Where NO fire shelter is needed.
The statement I referenced above was made on June 27 2014 on the article from the same day. The author of the comment seems to be named Robert. Sorry, I do not post links. Thanks for responding.
WTKTT and Calvin,
I’m not totally convinced on the BRHS wanting or needing to quickly burn out a Safety Zone based on the reference below. Many times, grassy areas are identified as a S/Z and
You cite the following: “First escape route was to the highway and out.
Second escape route was back to the junction and burn out the grass.”
I think that they’re referring to a pre-planned LCES strategy here for both E/R #1 and E/R #2 and so, to me, this refers to a safe area, however, it requires burning it out to become a TRUE Bona Fide S/Z. A true S/Z is implied, that’s for sure. However, it could be to get an anchor for a firing operation because that was discussed.
In the past several years, prior to the YH Fire, Temporary Refuge Areas or TRA”s have become fairly common especially in WUI situations, which the BRHS were surrounded within.
http://www.firefighternation.com/article/firefighter-safety/temporary-refuge-area-considerations-and-options
The excerpts below are from the ADOSH Investigation documents of the BRHS hand written and/or typed statements, notes, and unit logs.
“1540 – crew gears up to start prep of dozer line >> 1* and 2* (the * symbol represents a ‘degree’ symbol in the original text) Escape Routes and Safety Zones identified. (The BRHS are no slackers because they have mentioned PLURAL Escape Routes and Safety Zones and in the proper order. You must use an E/R first, to get TO a S/Z, unlike the GMHS perversion of being in a perfectly good S/Z and using some twisted notion of an Escape Route FROM avSafety Zone.
“1622 – we were told to leave the dozer line via 1* Escape Route towards the vehicles.” Once again, the BRHS are on the ball here, planning to escape rather than burn out a Safety Zone as mentioned above.
Moreover, in Chapters VII and XII you mention the Yarnell Investigation (YIN) Notes in PDF format, however, I cannot locate them anywhere even though these references are often cited. Help please? Thanks
RTS,, this hasn’t actually been discussed much, and there ended up no corresponding ADOSH citation… but the truth is that for the sake of just a few minutes… the Blue Ridge Hotshot themselves might have been another set of BODIES that would have had to have been hauled out of Yarnell.
They made it back to their buggies that were ‘staged’ there at the Youth Camp in the NICK OF TIME.
See the post to Calvin above and that photo of Captain Brown standing there at the WEST end of the Cutover Trail at exactly 1526 ( 3:46 PM ).
He is standing at the EXTREME ‘west’ end of that Cutover trail, only 168 yards ( 503 feet ) from the ‘grass’ of the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area to the WEST… and a good portion of the Blue Ridge Crew is right there near him ( seen in the photo )..
The distance from where Brown was standing in IMG_1882 to where the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers were staged at the Youth Camp was…
0.66 mile(s) / 1,155 yards / 3,465 feet
More than 6/10 of a mile in the OTHER direction.
If Frisby and Brown hadn’t noticed ( themselves ) when they did that it was time to get the hell out of there… then their ‘escape route’ back to the buggies COULD have easily gotten ‘compromised’ and they would have had to fall back on ‘Plan B’ and go back west to the Sesame Clearing area and take their chances there.
I think they might have survived a ‘deployment’ out there… but it was by NO means any kind of valid ‘Safety Zone’.
There IS eividence that teh Blue Ridge Hotshots themselves had come ‘running like hell’ out of that Cutover Trail area and back to their buggies… and the Hulburd videos do show them getting out of there ‘in the nick of time’.
But there was no ADOSH citation for THAT ‘potential ‘Blue Ridge’ entrapment’. Only for the FFs who were out in Harper Canyon.
WTKTT,
Moreover, in Chapters VII and XII you mention the Yarnell Investigation (YIN) Notes in PDF format, however, I cannot locate them anywhere even though these references are often cited. Help please? Thanks
They’ve always been sitting in InvestigativeMEDIA’s online Dropbox that contains all of the other SAIT investigation data.
It’s in the “Interview Notes” folder up there.
Here is a direct link to the PDF file sitting up in that ‘Dropbox’…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAD0Mx98JeLOmV7peH2I3zqja/Interview%20Notes/N-%20InterviewNotes%20-%20redacted.pdf?dl=0
Yes seems there were lots of burn out deals that day. We know from u tube video that the shrine area had one going or else a back burn and now that the video is delete we did not get a time but that wind was really picked up when they were torching there. I did not notice the direction of tree sway and since that was when we were early on and not cognizant that there was a cover up going on we did not take notice of things such as that else we would have taken copy of the video. We had no idea of what great lengths the fire gods would go to in order to produce a “no blame” narrative. Gag orders, redactions, shredding, threats, omissions and commissions, lies and denials and false information–all to cover up shoddy management at the Yarnell Fire Debacle.
I do realize with remembering the extreme wind conditions when they were torching that day of demise that if the wind indeed had change to the south or southwest then it would have quickly approached the Helms and also trapped the GMHS instead of the main fire that was farther to the north of the bowl. I have since thought that was the reason we nearly got trapped by cutting across to get to our vehicle when we could have dropped off to 89. One needs that video that was on u tube so the time of that burn out could be known. Also I wonder if the GMHS were indeed sent to make a burn out at Helms and below along that dozer line they did or intended to do but the wind change and fire proximity stopped their efforts.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 14, 2015 at 7:03 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> They ( taxpayers ) got exactly what is outlined in the SAIT procedures.
>> They ( the SAIT ) did what the investigation outline told them to do.
They ( Jim Karels and Mike Dudley ) most certainly did NOT.
I’m going to reproduce a post I made about this back in Chapter 13.
Remember the ALJ Hearing files?
During all that back and forth… even ADOSH realized that Jim Karels and Mike Dudley had totally failed to produce what the Governor of Arizona had told them ( and PAID them ) to produce… and the ADOSH LAWYERS wanted to know WHERE the contracted ‘Management Report’ was.
On April 13, 2015 at 10:53 am WantsToKnowTheTruth posted…
** ADOSH LAWYERS WANT TO SEE THE SAIT ‘MANAGEMENT REPORT’
** THAT THEY WERE REQUIRED TO PRODUCE.
Still combing through the latest ALJ Hearing file document(s) that were posted just a week ago ( April 6 ).
In the latest document covering exchanges ( so far ) in April… there are more responses from Arizona Forestry to ADOSH’s requests for things that are SUPPOSED to be in Arizona Forestry’s possession.
This is all still part of the ‘Discovery’ process taking place and that the ‘Exchange of documents/evidence’ that has been taking place since last year.
In this latest ALJ document we now learn that ADOSH wants Arizona Forestry to produce the ‘Management Report’ that was SUPPOSED to be one of the ‘paid for’ deliverables coming out of Jim Karel’s and Mike Dudley’s ‘Special Accident Investigation’.
We also now see the Arizona Forestry lawyers ‘playing STUPID’ on this and pretending they have no idea what ADOSH is even referring to.
The strategy there ( on the part of Arizona Forestry ) is that if they simply ‘PLAY STUPID’ on this… then they don’t have to explain to either ADOSH or Judge Mosesso why Jim Karels and Mike Dudley never even bothered to even DO this ‘Management Report’ that the were contracted to produce.
The latest ALJ Hearing File document ( uploaded on April 6 ) is…
“2015_04 Updated 04.06.15.pdf”
From that document…
—————————————————————————————-
ADOSH: REQUEST FOR PRODCUTION NO. 16:
Produce the “Management Evaluation Report” relating to June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire
ASFD: RESPONSE TO REQUEST FOR PRODCUTION NO. 16:
Respondent ( Arizona Forestry ) is unfamiliar with a document entitled “Management Evaluation Report” ( the “Report” ) and therefore cannot produce the Report. If ADOSH is more specific as to the document to which the Request refers, ASFD is willing to undertake additional steps to respond to the Request. As it stands, ASFD does not possess responsive documents to this this Request.
—————————————————————————————–
The ‘Management Evaluation Report’ that ADOSH is referring to is the one that Jim Karels and Mike Dudley were specifically REQUIRED to produce along with the ‘Factual Report’ as one of the paid-for ‘deliverables’ coming out of their SAIT investigation.
They were specifically ORDERED to produce that ‘Management Evaluation Report’ in the actual ‘Delegation of Authority’ letter that created the SAIT itself.
The official “Delegation of Authority” letter, signed by Arizona State Forester Scott Hunt on July 3, 2013, is the document that allowed the “Special Accident Investigation Team” to start investigating the Yarnell Hill Incident on behalf of Arizona State Forestry.
It is also the document that specifically told the SAIT what their JOB was, and the ‘deliverables’ ( documents ) they were REQUIRED to produce.
Here is the full text of that “Delegation of Authority” document that was reproduced in the actual SAIR report itself as ‘Appendix G’…
—————————————————————————————–
To: Janice K. Brewer – Governor of Arizona
From: Scott Hunt – Arizona State Forester
Arizona State Forestry Division
Office of the State Forester
1110 W. Washington St., Suite 100
Phonenix, AZ 85007
(602) 771-1400
Serious Accident Investigation Team Delegation of Authority
On the afternoon of June 30, 2013, nineteen members of the Granite Mountain Type 1 Hotshot Crew from Prescott, Arizona were killed while fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire.
As the State Forester of Arizona, I authorize Jim Karel’s Serious Accident Investigation Team to conduct the accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
This delegation is to perform the serious accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire with the final objective of providing a FACTUAL and MANAGEMENT report for accident prevention.
I also authorize Mike Dudley as the Deputy Team Leader.
Your duties INCLUDE but are not limited to:
1. Organizing, conducting, and controlling the accident investigation.
2. Providing for in briefings and out briefings with affected agency officials.
3. Coordinating information exchange between team members, local law enforcement, coroner’s office, and others.
4. Requesting techincal, logistical, or other support as required to conduct the investigation.
5. Assist the State Forester’s information staff with addressing the media on your makeup, purpose, methodology, and estimated timelines, including attending press conferences if necessary.
6. The Forestry Division shall be the final repository for all team paperwork and reports.
7. Provide the following formal briefing reports:
A) Expanded Report ( 72 Hours )
B) Factual AND Management Report.
SIGNED by…
Scott Hunt – 7-3-13
Jim Karels, Team Leader, SAIT – 7-3-13
Mike Dudley, Deuputy Team Leader, SAIT – 7-3-13
—————————————————————————————–
The two relevant parts of this ‘Delegation of Authority’ document are…
—————————————————————————————–
This delegation is to perform the serious accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire with the final objective of providing a FACTUAL and MANAGEMENT report for accident prevention.
Your duties INCLUDE but are not limited to:
7. Provide the following formal briefing reports:
A) Expanded Report ( 72 Hours )
B) Factual and Management Report.
—————————————————————————————–
That’s a ‘Factual’ AND a ‘Management’ report ( TWO different reports ).
So Arizona Forestry knows damn well what ‘Management Report’ ADOSH is referring to.
But as long as the Arizona Forestry lawyers ‘STAY STUPID’ about it and pretend they don’t even know what ADOSH is referring to, then they don’t even have to explain why this ‘Management Report’ that the SAIT was REQUIRED to produce was never actually done.
This MANAGEMENT report was SUPPOSED to NOT be one of these ‘Facilitated Learning Analysis’ (FLA) style reports and was SUPPOSED to be just a detailed report targeted for Fire Service Management about what ACTUALLY happened that day.
Jim Karels, Mike Dudley ( and the SAIT ) CHOSE to NOT produce this report, even though they were being PAID to do so, and Arizona Forestry was OK with that.
If ADOSH comes back and clarifies this request ( easily done )… it’s going to be hard for the Arizona Forestry lawyers to keep ‘PLAYING STUPID’ on this and we might ( finally ) see an explanation as to WHY this critical ‘Management Report’ ( which the Arizona taxpayers were PAYING for ) was never even produced.
YOUR POINT?????? They used the National Interagency Fire Center Fire Fatality outline for the investigation. The direction by the State was not written in concrete the NIFC was the official direction signed off by all Co-op Agencies.
The new direction is not to point fingers remember. Not at the State Not at the overhead, Not at the fire fighters. It is to complex for the investigation to point fingers let OSHA do that……
I thought the POINT was obvious.
That DELEGATION OF AUTHORITY letter was a LEGAL CONTRACT between Arizona Forestry and the individual ‘contractors’ ( Karels and Dudley ) and they ALL SIGNED it… and then it was sent to the GOVERNER OF ARIZONA for HER approval. She gave it… and now expected these ‘contractors’ ( Karels and Dudley ) to do exactly what they has just ( legally ) agreed to do.
One more time… but this time ONLY 5 important sentences from ‘the contract’…
——————————————————————————–
As the State Forester of Arizona, I authorize Jim Karel’s Serious Accident Investigation Team to conduct the accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
This delegation is to perform the serious accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire with the final objective of providing a FACTUAL and MANAGEMENT report for accident prevention.
——————————————————————————-
My POINT was that even after AGREEING TO ( and SIGNING ) this legal contract… Jim Karels and Mike Dudley then just proceeded to do whatever the fuck THEY wanted to do.
There is NOTHING in there about them being allowed to just forget this contract they just signed with the State of Arizona and then go off and willy-nilly decide to ONLY come up with some bullshit “Facilitated Learning Analysis”.
Do YOU see the letters ‘FLA’ anywhere in this ‘contract’ they both signed?
Also… ( once again… in case you didn’t see it below )…
———————————————————
MISAPPROPRIATION OF PUBLIC MONIES
The illegal practice of accepting public tax dollars earmarked for a specific purpose and spending the money on something for which it was not intended.
———————————————————
I think the taxpayers of Arizona still deserve every penny BACK that was spent on that SAIR thing. They did NOT get the ‘deliverables’ they ‘contracted’ for and for which those taxpayers dollars were being spent.
Your assumptions are high but have no reality.—-
They did the investigation not according to State request but according to the National direction which the State had signed off on When ever and agreed to as the way to follow the protocol
Thus there was no as you put it Misappropriation of public money___________
The Investigation Team did exactly what was required by the Federal guidance
They answered what the State requested even if You and I do not agree with the Final Document.
Its a bitch but the State is a partner in the National Interagency Fire Organization. and the agreed to Fatality investigations.
ADOSH was responsible to the State to Investigate the work place violations and determine if there were any violations there.
Yes I disagree with the way its being done but that is how it is today and I do not see it changing back to the way it use to be.
They do not want to name names and assign blame describe what happened and let others discuss and find Lessons learned.
There is no more showing what Orders were violated or what Watch outs were ignored. As in the past.
One classic example in the report about the Black safety zone they were already in and left.
We do not know why they left the black—–
We need to ask the Question what is Safe Black?????
What is Safe Green?????
That is all your going to get you aint gona get no more in Layman terms.
The seasoned FF out there know exactly the answer to that……RIGHT
To say they should never have left the black and they should never have gone down a brush filled canyon that violated severial different things.
Would have assigned Blame and Fault That is not done any more.
It dose not take a Collage education to figure that out. Just start following the Investigations backwards till you run into the Old system where they start naming the 10 and 18. There you have it Safety is a FOUR LETTER WORD.
———CRAP—————
Bob
Thanks. And the four letters that ALWAYS keep you out of CRAP are LCES. Every time!
If we hold nobody accountable then anything and everything is permissible. The New,Age perception is reality blather.
HOW FAR HAVE WE COME????????????????
To forget our roots and turn our backs on the 10 and 18
Its like any Commercial or Large company Safety rules in their work place are there for a very important reason.
The Safety rules are there to keep you safe fail to use them and bad things happen like injury and death.
So WTKTT shows us that what Dudley and Karel are saying by omission of the Management Report is exactly what we have seen. The Yarnell Hill Fire was very badly managed and that was from the very beginning when our local Yarnell Fire Department and the Congress Fire Department, both within short distance of the actual fire had the option to either let it run or put it out on Friday, June 28, 2013. Buford told me to look at lightening strikes before that. He said that there is no money to be made if you rush up and put out a small fire, and one wonders why the Sair people don’t consider the possibility that this is a pattern of allowing wild fires to develop so that millions of tax dollars are expended to line the pockets of certain individuals playing the game. Well we saw how GMHS people were stealing hours with someone looking the other way on that account. How about looking at the bigger picture that involves a fire that for a few hundred in man hours could have avoided the million dollar tax payer expense and 19 lives of elite wild land firefighters, not to mention the many residences of Yarnell and Peeples Valley burned to the ground, the tension, suicides and deaths of residences related to the loss of homes here, and the misery of loosing lost loved ones in the fire. Those loved ones can never be replaced with a check. Definitely parents and siblings are done a disservice by omission of facts–a part of the healing process denied by omission of facts and management problems obvious to all involved in the fire debacle. Dudley and Karol failed miserably in that duty to report and it appears were in direct violation to the orders from the governor to give that report. How can the state investigate itself in matters so serious as this one is? When we see such obvious gold painted bull shit spread out, while millions in tax payer dollars are thrown to the wind because of neglect of duties, and most importantly many good men are led to their deaths, then we wonder why Federal Agents are not on top of a proper investigation. Are 14 in San Berndino more important than 19 of the front line defenders lost in Yarnell–add to that the expenditure of millions of tax payer dollars and loss of locals and their homes as the aftermath of this debacle?
Some have said that people on the JD site are just stirring the pot. Well how else will we ever get the truth out of these people that are instructed to paint this ugly situation white. Indeed it would be nice to have seen an honest report from the beginning, but shredding, gag orders and obvious cover up and neglect of proper investigation leave concerned parties no alternative but to keep probing. Indeed fear has been invoked in some even locals by threatening their jobs and livelihood if they speak out. That in itself ought to be investigated as a crime in a free society, yet too many of us are accepting the infringement on our god given constitutional rights. People are forgetting that these state people all are servants of the people. They are paid by our tax dollars and must preform their duties properly and in good regard to their hire or be replaced. That includes the Govenor and Representatives who direct these State entities who were doing the shoddy work and investigating at Yarnell.
There is too much at stake to leave this one alone.
Thanks for that, WTKTT. I was trying to find that order/statement by Gov Brewer yesterday but couldn’t.
I think what Bob is saying is also apropos.
On the other hand, even if what Bob is saying is true, which I agree with, why didn’t AZDF’s lawyers just say so? Why didn’t they just describe the process and say that’s why there’s no Management Report?
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 15, 2015 at 2:48 pm
>> Marti asked…
>>
>> On the other hand, even if what Bob is saying is true, which I agree
>> with, why didn’t AZDF’s lawyers just say so? Why didn’t they just
>> describe the process and say that’s why there’s no Management
>> Report?
Because they ( the lawyers ) KNEW that Karels and Dudley had NOT fulfilled the terms of that contract they signed ( the Delegation of Authority ) with the State of Arizona.
They signed it… and then they just did whatever the fuck THEY wanted to do.
One more time… but this time ONLY 5 important sentences from ‘the contract’…
——————————————————————————–
As the State Forester of Arizona, I authorize Jim Karel’s Serious Accident Investigation Team to conduct the accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
This delegation is to perform the serious accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire with the final objective of providing a FACTUAL and MANAGEMENT report for accident prevention.
——————————————————————————-
There is NOTHING in there about them being allowed to just forget this contract they just signed with the State of Arizona and then go off and willy-nilly decide to ONLY come up with some bullshit “Facilitated Learning Analysis”.
Do YOU see the letters ‘FLA’ anywhere in this ‘contract’ they both signed?
Also… ( once again… in case you didn’t see it below )…
———————————————————
MISAPPROPRIATION OF PUBLIC MONIES
The illegal practice of accepting public tax dollars earmarked for a specific purpose and spending the money on something for which it was not intended.
———————————————————
I think the taxpayers of Arizona still deserve every penny BACK that was spent on that SAIR thing. They did NOT get the ‘deliverables’ they ‘contracted’ for and for which those taxpayers dollars were being spent.
Just read the following statements flowing out of Mike Dudley’s own mouth when he was talking to that roomful of Utah firefighters… and you tell me if you aren’t listening to someone publicly admitting that even though he knew he was contracted to do ONE thing… that HE ( and his buddy Karels ) just DECIDED to do ‘something else’…
——————————————————————
Ya look at Yarnell Hill report… that WE did… and then there’s also an Arizona Department of Safety and Health which is the state OSHA… they did their report.
Two totally different styles. That was deliberate… especially on our part… because our part was NOT a compliance review. We weren’t tryin’ to do a 10 and 18. We we’re tryin’ to understand why the crew made the decison that they made that led them to their location.
But… we were not sitting there… under… and… we were delegated by the State of Arizona for this report… but we were not there to specifically point fingers unless we had come up with something that was criminal intent… which was not the case.
Two different styles of the reports.
We can talk a little bit about that… about where the Wildland fire… uh… community… where we were tryin’ to head with these kinda documents.
Ah… we released our report on September the twenty eigth.
The ADOSH report… uh… was released the first week of December, which went into a heavy compliance report, pointing fingers.
So… let me tell ya about the team and if ya look at the report you’ll see the team members. Ah… the primary focus was… this was a State report delegated to us by the State of Arizona.
First few days we negotiated the delegation of the authority from the State Forester of Arizona as to what HE wanted.
If you were to go to the NWCG website… you would see the guide for the Serious Accident Investigation guide… and at that time it was the 2005 version.
We KNEW that we HAD a PROCESS but we didn’t WANNA do a compliance.
So… we… were looking for a new way to try and do that… and within the Forest Service we’ve been doin’ what’s called FLA… Facilitated Learning Analysis. We’re not tryin’ to point blame. We’re tryin’ to gather the truth and try and figure out what happened for people to learn from.
—————————————————————————-
Key quote…
“We ( He and Jim Karels ) had a process ( the existing SAI FACTUAL and MANAGEMENT report format which they agreed to do by signing that letter )
but we didn’t WANNA do a compliance.”
So Mike Dudley and Jim Karels THEMSELVES decided… the hell with the usual FACTUAL and MANAGEMENT report(s) and this ‘compliance’ shit ( which they had already specifically agreed to produce by signing that Delegation of Authority document ).
Let’s just forget what we AGREED to do and what Arizona taxpayers are PAYING us to do… and do one of them fancy-schmancy “Facilitated Learning Analysis” thing-a-ma-bobbies.
Yea… that’s the ticket.
**
** THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN AUTOPSY REPORTS
**
** EVIDENCE OF PHYSICAL INJURIES PRIOR TO DEPLOYMENT
Well… I’ve now read through all the reports at least 3 times now, word for word, and first just let me say that if there is ANY Wildland Fireghter out there who thinks for one second that the hard-wrought SAFETY RULES and RULES OF ENGAGEMENT for this profession ( already paid for with many lives ) are, in any way, ‘Old school’ or ‘Hillbilly’ or even ‘Optional’… I think they should be forced to sit their asses down in a chair and read ALL of these autopsy reports, word for work, like I just did.
I believe they will (permanently) have a different ‘attitude’ towards fireline safety and the existing rules of their profession when they finish reading them.
Actually… I would bet MONEY on it.
That being said…
There have ALWAYS been rumors that perhaps one of the reasons the Granite Mountain Hotshots’ forward progress for the latter part of their hike towards the Boulder Spring Ranch seemed to slow down to almost a ‘crawl’ *might* have been due to some kind of ‘physical injury’ taking place on the crew which remained ‘unreported’ via radio.
So it seemed very much worth a detailed look at the ‘autopsy reports’ to see if there is/was actually any EVIDENCE to support such a theory.
I think it’s now safe to say NO… there is no such evidence.
There ARE mention of some ‘fractures’… but the Maricopa County Medical Examiner’s office was attributing ALL of those ‘fractures’ or ‘bone separations’ ( except for ONE, see below ) to ‘normal’ thermal (heat) related causes.
The ONLY non-thermal related physical injuries being reported by the Medical Examiners that *may* have happened prior to the burnover are some ‘blunt force’ injuries to just TWO of the Hotshots.
Christopher MacKenzie had some kind of impact injury to the back of his right HAND, and Clayton Whitted showed HEAD injuries that seem to be consistent with falling down ( face forward ) and hitting his head on something.
** FRACTURES
Only 5 ( FIVE ) of the 19 ( NINETEEN ) reports mention ‘fractures’…
Various ‘thermal fractures’ and ‘disarticulations’ ( bone separations ) involving ribs, elbows, feet, knees and femurs ( upper leg bone ).
NOTE: The Medical Examiner attributes ALL of these ‘fractures’ and ‘disarticulations’ to THERMAL (HEAT) influences, and not something that might have happened BEFORE the deployment.
There is only ONE ‘disarticulation’ of anyone’s ANKLE where the Medical Examiner did NOT specifically say that the ‘disarticulation’ was ‘thermal related. That would be for Garret Zuppiger’s LEFT ANKLE.
Direct quotes from the report(s)…
Sean Misner – Thermal fracture of the right femur.
Christopher MacKenzie – Thermal related fractures of the right foot.
Andrew Ashcraft – Heat related disarticulation present in the right knee. There is also heat related disarticulation present in the right elbow.
Clayton Whitted – Thermal related rib fractures are identified.
Garret Zuppiger – Fire fracturing of the right ankle, foot and digits. Disarticulation of the left ankle, foot and digits.
** BLUNT FORCE INJURIES
Only 2 ( FIVE ) of the 19 ( NINETEEN ) reports mention ‘Blunt force trauma’…
Christopher MacKenzie had some kind of impact injury to the back of his right HAND, and Clayton Whitted showed HEAD injuries that seem to be consistent with falling down ( face forward ) and hitting his head on something.
Direct quotes from the report(s)…
Christopher MacKenzie – Additional nonthermal related injuries include a 1/4-inch red abrasion of the dorsum (back) of the right hand.
Clayton Whitted – Evidence of blunt force injuries include a 4 x 3 cm area of left frontal subscalp hemorrhage and a 3 x 1 cm area of right frontal subscape hemorrhage.
** SUMMARY
Let me also just say, in light of some recent comments, that if anyone is still upset that people who are still interested in learning the TRUTH about this incident are continuing their inquiries… they need to remember that there was a ‘golden opportunity’ to learn the FULL facts of what happened that weekend and put a lot questions to rest way back in the weeks following the incident itself.
It’s called ‘making sure you do a good investigation’.
We all know now that the original Arizona Forestry contracted “Special Accident Investigation” was neither ‘Special’… nor was it a real ‘Investigation’.
They published a report that was so absent of facts and conclusions that it was INEVITABLE there would be MUCH more to come, especially in this day and age when information is readily accessible to the public and there was no aspect of that workplace ( personnel or equipment ) that was NOT totally taxpayer funded.
This was NOT an accident that took place on an Exxon Mobile oil rig, with a PRIVATE company in charge of that workplace.
These were 19 CIVIL SERVANTS, being paid to work in a PUBLIC workplace ‘owned and operated’ by an equally public and wholly-taxpayer-funded Department of the State of Arizona.
Even the documents just released for inspection have ALWAYS been “Public Documents”, wholly owned by the people who PAID for them to be produced.
So if anyone is still consternating about why there are still people who want to know the truth about what happened in/around Yarnell the entire weekend of Friday, June 28, 2013 through Sunday, June 30, 2013… then they need to have their own “slowly I turned” moment and start taking a good look at the agencies and the individuals who failed to ‘do the right thing’ in the weeks following the incident.
If THEY had ‘done their jobs’ correctly and not presented a worthless report that was filled with more ‘mysteries’ than it was with ‘facts’… there wouldn’t be so many lingering ‘questions’ that beg to be answered… and WILL be answered, given time.
They also need to remember that it is now a known FACT that some key witnesses to the events of that weekend had ALWAYS been ‘withholding’ critical evidence and information from those people who had been legally tasked to investigate the incident… and there is still evidence that is the case for many others.
Even at this moment… attorneys from the Arizona State attorney general’s office who have been ‘assigned’ to represent Arizona Foresty are arguing before an Arizona Appeals Court that Arizona Forestry does NOT now, nor has it EVER had, any ‘duty’ or ‘responsibility’ whatsover to ever lift one single finger to either DEFEND or PROTECT Citizens OR Structures that do NOT directly reside or occupy space on Arizona State Trust Land.
That argument automatically makes even the very actions and proposed motivations on the part of Arizona Forestry employees ( and contractors ) that led to this tragedy acts of gross negligence, with AZF employees and contractors taking actions that were completely outside even their legal scope of authority and responsibility, as now being argued in a Court of Law by Arizona Forestry itself.
And as a Prescott Judge has been known to say in his own open courtroom…
————————————————————————————
I’m afraid that the tragedy that happened June 30, 2013 was something that we’re all gonna be livin’ with the rest of our lives. It was a kick in the gut for the whole community. Countywide plus statewide, nationwide.
It’s one of those great tragedies that is just one of those things that one can remember where one was when one first heard about something like that… and that’s gonna be a great emotional impact on EVERYBODY.
And because of it being such a major event… that means people are gonna continue to have opinions about it, talk about it, have meetings about it, have memorials about it… all the different things that come along with great national tragedies like that.
There are just things that people WILL talk about or whatever… and it’s something, I’m afraid, that’s just something one has to live with… the fact that there WILL be PUBLIC discussion and there WILL be PUBLIC opinions about what happened and why things happened or who… who was or was not responsible… or whatever.
————————————————————————————
So the inquiries related to this ‘great national tragedy’ ( and the discussions ) WILL continue.
That’s just the way it is.
Yes, the words that a Prescott Judge has been known to say in his own open courtroom do state the facts of the matter rather well. Perhaps I should print out his words and send them to State Representative Karen Fann.
Thanks WTKTT for an excellent explanation of reasons we will not allow the shoddy investigation stand as the final word on the cause of 19 deaths, a deliberate dereliction of duty to immediately put out a lightning strike on Friday. June 28, 2013 while the Yarnell Fire District was under extreme fire danger, suicides and many other deaths of locals as an aftermath of what included stress from loss as well as NH3 inhalation and other chemicals released from more than 30,000 gallons of agent orange looking ammonium phosphate slurry {includes 8% unknown chemicals deemed trade secret]. the burning of half the town homes, and expenditures of millions of taxpayer dollars. I do indeed mourn the loss of the nineteen young firemen. Yet this obviously goes beyond that in that this is a public matter that has affected people near and far. Withholding the information that will save future wild land firefighters is tantamount to murder and the death toll of about 70 out of 600 Yarnell residents since the fire begs a thorough investigation. Mistakes that have caused these deaths and cost the taxpayer millions must be revealed. Fortunately we have professional people working on the cover up. Meant to make a bungle look like God’s good old way of doing things or this screw up was just an accident and don’t rock the boat won’t work in these times of internet and sharing. Too many know that the public has been fed a line and now too many are digging at the golden rule-truth.
Thanks also to Gary Olsen who has put a good argument in for the use of that public land as a learning center for future firemen. How many lives indeed would be saved by training young inexperienced firemen in the area even pointing out mistakes made by the GMHS leaders and perhaps dry runs to boulder areas that could have been an alternative to deploying in that manzanita. Remember there was not one good reason to drop into a death trap or attempt to protect structures with Pulaski’s or five gallon water bags when you had 19 good men in a safe area and a raging fire dumping heat energy equal to that of a Hiroshima type bomb every 15 minutes. Read the professional manual about the Yarnell Fire written by Wooten and Morrison for more scientific data on the fire.
We cannot accept a gloss over investigation. Joy says every stone must be overturned until all is known and this matter is properly assessed. I agree.Thanks for an excellent explanation of reasons we will not allow the shoddy investigation stand as the final word on the cause of 19 deaths, a deliberate dereliction of duty to immediately put out a lightning strike on Friday. June 28, 2013 while the Yarnell Fire District was under extreme fire danger, suicides and many other deaths of locals as an aftermath of what included stress from loss as well as NH3 inhalation and other chemicals released from more than 30,000 gallons of agent orange looking ammonium phosphate slurry {includes 8% unknown chemicals deemed trade secret]. the burning of half the town homes, and expenditures of millions of taxpayer dollars. I do indeed mourn the loss of the nineteen young firemen. Yet this obviously goes beyond that in that this is a public matter that has affected people near and far. Withholding the information that will save future wild land firefighters is tantamount to murder. Mistakes that have caused these deaths and cost the taxpayer millions must be revealed. Fortunately we have professional people working on the cover up. Meant to make a bungle look like God’s good old way of doing things or this screw up was just an accident and don’t rock the boat won’t work in these times of internet and sharing. Too many know that the public has been fed a line and now too many are digging at the golden rule-truth.
Thanks also to Gary Olsen who has put a good argument in for the use of that public land as a learning center for future firemen. How many lives indeed would be saved by training young inexperienced firemen in the area.
I apologize for the rewrite on the last post. I don’t know what happened there. Maybe God wanted it that way==likely I ought to be honest and own up to my own screw up. Well I did have a Psychic write and tell me she does not see me being healthy enough between now and my transition time. She had some good other advice as well. So there are many Gods or One depending upon how you want to view things. Isn’t our great country wonderful in allowing us freedom of speech and personal views of religious ideas. When my heart stopped beating lately I did not see any lights, only peaceful black. Maybe I was not dead long enough.
Not a problem, Sonny.
Tá roinnt rudaí atá fiú a rá faoi dhó
( Some things are worth saying TWICE! )
WTKTT- The blunt force and other injuries you pointed out in the autopsy reports would be consistent with going donw that steep incline from the two track to the not so steep bottom of the basin. That was proven with our own descent from where they went down to their deployment area. OSHA investigators Brent and Bruce timed that descent at between twenty and thirty minutes for four people. This was on a pleasant day and with all the brush burned away so that the only deterrent to the descent was its steepness. Though not trying I was the first to the fence ahead of Brent Steurer by only a minute so. He was a marathon runner with long legs and in good shape but this does not help when maneuvering through steep rocky terrain; The point is it takes years and plenty of experience to come down such a place at a good pace. Falling on your face coming down that decline would be easier than falling off a log–that is how steep it is with loose rocks ready to slide out from under your feet as you descend. In fact, both Bruce Hanna and Joy Collura fell on there way down and were some ten minutes behind Brent and I. Bruce hurt himself really bad and would have shown blunt force injury I even joked to him that he would need to take disability leave for injury on the job. It was though a truly serious injury and I wonder if it had bothered him since. Joy on the other hand fell but her bruises soon healed in a few days. Note that none of us were trying to rush but mainly to go at a pace comfortable enough we could make it without injury.’
So now we consider 19 hardy souls but tired, heat exhausted to one extent or another in 100F and higher heat not to mention all the brush to encounter before the burnoff. Some of that brush included catclaw that c digs into your flesh and rip holes in your epidermis like so many sharks teeth that they mimic on a smaller scale. It and other brush such as mesquite is why men like McKensie wear chaps when working cattle in those areas. Also that scrub oak that has needles protruding from its leaves to constantly annoy you but even the tangled grass and manzanita to hid rocks that slide from under your feet or else trip you up if you move too quickly. So descending under those conditions would find not a few of those GMHS falling at some point regardless of how careful they descended. You can bet the burns they received covered many bruises that coroners could not see. Those they did see were consistent with the reality of their descend,
Forgive those typos above. To you that climb the Weavers forget getting a helicopter ride in if you don’t have insurance and get hurt so you can not walk out. My bill from Congress to Prescott Hospital just came in at $38,711.45. That makes those $29 helicopter rides you can get out of Vegas to fly over the Hoover Dam and the Colorado river seem cheap. Better to buy your own helicopter or figure something else. What happened to the good old days when people helped people in trouble without making a racket out of it. Well if nothing else this will encourage people to go into that business or racket if you prefer. Maybe that will bring prices down or perhaps Obama will require us to get helicopter fee insurance if we are hikers.
“Even at this moment… attorneys from the Arizona State attorney general’s office who have been ‘assigned’ to represent Arizona Foresty are arguing before an Arizona Appeals Court that Arizona Forestry does NOT now, nor has it EVER had, any ‘duty’ or ‘responsibility’ whatsover to ever lift one single finger to either DEFEND or PROTECT Citizens OR Structures that do NOT directly reside or occupy space on Arizona State Trust Land.
That argument automatically makes even the very actions and proposed motivations on the part of Arizona Forestry employees ( and contractors ) that led to this tragedy acts of gross negligence, with AZF employees and contractors taking actions that were completely outside even their legal scope of authority and responsibility, as now being argued in a Court of Law by Arizona Forestry itself.”
You know I agree with you on that, as regards this moment in time regarding this fire.
However.
As I have been wandering around looking for “discussion” regarding wildland firefighters getting themselves killed, burned over, maimed, whatever, in the wildland urban interface, and what policies (and strategies and tactics) need to be changed, I am seeing a change being called for, and that change is in alignment with what AZDF is claiming here.
It’s a change I intend to write about more here, and probably elsewhere, in the future.
There are two things being “protested.” One is about no more killing fire-fighters to protect structures, especially when those structures are not being protected by their owners. That “protest” is being spearheaded in Montana.
The other is no more spending billions and billions of (at this point Federal, but the idea could trickle down, at least somewhat, to state levels) taxpayer dollars paying for land management agencies fighting fires to protect relatively local and private lands and properties. It’s really a transfer of wealth, and some are increasingly seeing it in those terms. And I find myself agreeing.
Even the USFS is increasingly reiterating that it is not their mission to protect private property in the wildland urban interface. And, I am increasingly agreeing with that reiteration. It’s a fool’s mission.
The horse is in the process of leaving the barn on this one. As well it should, I think.
I don’t know if that will play out retro-actively here. It’s completely obvious that AZDF, via its strategies and tactics, was ALL about “protecting the wildland urban interface” on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
I do believe this will be a land-mark case. In many many ways. Along with the case in Washington State.
The paradigm needs to change big time.
Namaste.
And, I might add, what plays out regarding the Twisp River Fire, may, also become a part of this necessary shift in the paradigm.
And when I say:
“The horse is in the process of leaving the barn on this one. ”
I should add that the horse has not yet left the barn. It’s just decided it’s high time to get the hell out.
In the interest of full disclose and my penchant for over sharing, I want to share even more with you, because as I have said many times, you are among my closest friends and confidants.
Frankly, I don’t know why I am still here. I don’t really enjoy driving up and down sand dunes all that much on my quad, that is something my dear wife wanted to do. And she is an old lady, so she mostly just drives up and down the beach…slowly. It is hard to enjoy life after you have seen the elephant with so many…so many times.
I have relearned so many old lessons since 6/30/13, and even some new ones. One of the old lessons I have relearned is to be careful what you ask for because you might get it. I have repeatedly asked people to email me their thoughts on the Yarnell Hill Fire and its aftermath. And today a very special person did just that. I was not asked to keep this email confidential, so I am not going to. Nor am I going to keep my response confidential because I like to over share.
I know this isn’t about me, but I would really appreciate it if no one would reply to this post. I have enough to deal with right now.
From: Amanda Beno Marsh
To: “[email protected]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2015 4:25 AM
Subject: Amanda Marsh
If it is my tears you are after, you have them. If it is my deep sadness you want, you have it. If you want to know that you have broken me, for now you have. If it is Eric’s father’s tears that you want, you have them, too. For his heart is absolutely broken, and that breaks me.
gary olson
Today at 10:45 AM
To Amanda Beno Marsh
Amanda,
I am completely at a loss for words to describe how bad I feel for you and all of those who loved Eric. I have said many times how much I respected Eric, how much I identify with him and his frailties. I have written how smart and how very capable I think he was. Starting the wildfire academy in his living room is just one example of how much potential Eric had.
I did everything I could to talk my son into trying to get a job on the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew and I even paid for him to attend Eric’s training and I bought his Nick’s boots. I wish he would have gotten White’s, but he never does anything I want him to do. My son knew Eric, just as hundreds, if not thousands of others who did become wildland firefighters because of him and his wildland fire academy knew him.
I wasn’t there, but one night my family was having dinner in Prescott and Eric was sitting at a table with several other old time wildland firefighters. My son, Eric, proudly told my wife, that’s Eric Marsh, he’s the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew Boss, dad used to fight fire with some of those guys.
I said many times when this thread first started how many good things I had heard about Eric and what an outstanding crew the Granite Mountain Hotshots were because I was in the loop with some of that crowd from the old days. I wished that I would have been there that night so I could have gone over and said hello and introduced myself to Eric, because I had heard so many good things about him.
I have written many times how much I identify with Eric, including his flaws and that if he were here today, I would give him a man hug and we would cry as together as we grieve for our dead. I have said that I could see my son’s face through my tears as I went through the faces of those on the crew shortly after the fire.
I have admitted that Eric was a better hotshot than I was, he was much more physically fit, probably smarter and more determined that I was and probably not even as flawed of a person as I am. I wrote that I was worse than Eric in some of the risks I took, but I was luckier than he was because I never fought a fire as unforgiving as the Yarnell Hill Fire. I have said how bad it makes me feel that I survived and he and his crew did not. Life is not fair.
I don’t think however, you should have gotten publicly involved as the face of this tragedy, especially in the area of making public policy. That should be left to the bureaucrats; they don’t have anything else better to do. By that kind of exposure, you opened yourself up to criticism from those who do not hurt as much as you or Eric’s parents hurt, no one else can hurt that bad, but hurt nevertheless. The wildland firefighting community, and I self identify as a retired wildland firefighter, was shocked to their very core by the enormity of this horrible tragedy. And we wanted to do something to help…in some way as best we could.
I understand how empty what I am about to write will seem to you, but I believe that if Eric were here today, he would still be willing to give me a man hug and let me cry with him as we grieved for our dead and he would comfort me and say, “I know…I’m sorry.”
I am going to pray that you and everyone else who loved Eric will be able to forgive me some day. In the meantime, I am going to pray that you find the strength to use the power that you have to call for a legitimate investigation of the worst fire disaster in the history of wildland firefighting. And that furthermore, you ask the Granite Mountain Hotshots State Park Memorial Board to move the memorial site to Prescott so the statues and crosses won’t be vandalized or disrespected in some other way and the park itself be turned into a learning ground that will help save wildland firefighters lives in the future. And that a simple fence with a retaining wall be built around that God forsaken and cursed deployment site. May God Bless you and everyone who loved Eric Marsh. I’m sorry.
Gary
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on December 13, 2015 at 1:00 pm
>> RTS said…
>> The GMHS was definitely NOT even performing basic Ground to Air procedure
>> ( learned at the basic training levels but certainly at the Crew Boss level ) by
>> initiating the communication with the ATGS/AA/B33 to notify them WHERE
>> they were and WHAT their intentions were.
From PDF page 48 of the totally taxpayer-funded
Arizona Forestry ‘Serious Accident Investigation Report’…
—————————————————————————————————
Conclusions
The Granite Mountain IHC was a fully qualified, staffed, and trained hotshot crew. They were current with the REQUIRED training and met work/rest guidelines. The crew followed ALL STANDARDS AND GUIDELINES as stated in the Standards for Interagency Hotshot Crew Operations and the Arizona State Forestry Division’s Standard Operational Guideline 804.
The judgments and decisions of the incident management organizations managing this fire were reasonable. Firefighters performed within their scope of duty, as defined by their respective organizations. The Team found no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.
Have a nice day!
Yours; Jim Karels, Mike Dudley, and the entire Arizona Forestry contracted SAIT team.
—————————————————————————————————-
Firefighter Nation – MAYDAY 101 – How to make a proper MAYDAY call
Published Friday, March 20, 2009 ( FOUR YEARS prior to the Yarnell tragedy )
http://www.firefighternation.com/article/training-0/mayday-101
—————————————————————————-
The word MAYDAY is derived from the French word m’aider
which means “come help me!”
It is IMPORTANT to DRILL on how to call a mayday so your crewmembers know exactly how to best ensure their survival.
NO FIREFIGHTER in this country should call for their FIRST mayday at a real incident.
Many firefighters don’t call them because they feel their training and experience will get them out of trouble. They also don’t want to call a mayday because they don’t want to be embarrassed by the fact that they got into trouble on the fireground and had to call for help. Consistent drilling on mayday calls can help overcome both of these stigmas, while also ensuring firefighters follow a standardized format.
If your department doesn’t have a standard operating procedure (SOP) for when and how to call a mayday, as well as a standardized set of actions that firefighters should perform during a mayday, develop them IMMEDIATELY.
—————————————————————————-
THE MAYDAY PROTOCOL
Say ( loudly and clearly) the word MAYDAY three times…. as in
MAYDAY!, MAYDAY!, MAYDAY!
Then IMMEDIATELY supply the following information.
DO NOT WAIT FOR A RESPONSE OR FOR PERMISSION TO CONTINUE!!
SUPPLY THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IMMEDIATELY…
WHO you are ( Your Unit ID or call sign or vessel name ).
WHERE you are ( Your EXACT location, in the BEST way you can describe it ).
WHAT is wrong ( The nature of distress or difficulty ).
WHAT KIND of assistance is desired.
Add the word “OVER” and wait for a response.
If there is no quick response… then REPEAT the entire MAYDAY call again,
complete with ALL the same information.
————————————————————————
I haven’t responded to this idea before, but I have always thought it is a great idea and should be implemented immediately if not sooner nationwide. It’s kind of a no brainer….I can’t imagine why somebody hasn’t thought of this before and if they have, why it wasn’t implemented already.
If this is the only thing cut in stone that ever comes out of this thread, it will be worth it if this plan is implemented. The only reason I can think of why it might not be, is because “they” have already proved to me countless times since 6/30/13 just how petty and small minded they really are.
It was part of my training way back at the beginning in the early 60’s
MAYDAY–MAYDAY–MAYDAY State Name or call sign and break for Radio silence.
MAYDAY CALL SIGN/NAME WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE AND LOCATION BREAK FOR RESPONSE.
That was standard during my 33 years WTF??????????
The MAYDAY protocol was ‘invented/created’ in 1923 by a senior radio officer at Croydon Airport in London, England.
The reason a FRENCH word/phrase was used is because a lot of the radio traffic in and around the English Channel involved French aviators and marine vessels.
NAME and LOCATION and NATURE OF EMERGENCY have ALWAYS been the very FIRST things… and including ALL of that information in even your very first transmit ( without WAITING for a response or ‘permission to speak’ ) has ALWAYS been part of the protocol
So your first description above of what you were taught…
MAYDAY–MAYDAY–MAYDAY
State Name or call sign and break for Radio silence.
…is WRONG… but your second description above…
MAYDAY
CALL SIGN/NAME
WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE AND LOCATION
BREAK
…is more CORRECT.
The reason you say MAYDAY-MAYDAY-MAYDAY three times is because shortly after the protocol was implemented they realized that the moment a MAYDAY radio call goes out… then there will be OTHER radio traffic that is now DISCUSSING the MAYDAY situation itself.
So the rule is to say MAYDAY-MAYDAY-MAYDAY three times fast in order to distinguish radio traffic coming FROM the source of the emergency from other radio traffic that is also ‘talking’ about the MAYDAY call itself.
Sorry WTKTT but you first have to get an open channel with all the traffic going on trying to talk over every body else dose no work. that was our training for Fires—————————-
You have already seen the confusion with all the traffic in the Air Plane the same is on the ground that’s why you first ask for a clear channel.
Normally the air or ground unit will then call you back or you call them.
If you start telling you emergency without a free open channel you may get transmitted over or as we say walked on.
You need to get an open frequency to talk on immediately.
They learned very quickly that what happened in the Air in the War was different than what happens on the ground on a Fire with severial different channels being monitored at once. So there are different protocols and that was ours from the 60’s into the 90’s.
“Sorry WTKTT but you first have to get an open channel with all the traffic going on ”
Well that may be true in a general sense……..in general…….
But in the case of Yarnell, specifically, it’s not apparent that the Air2Ground channel, which GM was using, was congested, at that time.
There are indications that they may have initially attempted to send out a signal on their Tac channel. Before they gave up (too much traffic to “get through”?) before going after Air2Ground (and even getting the callout protocol to that wrong under stress).
If there had been a trained/disciplined/activated protocol followed including what RTS and WTKTT are saying is, actually, in place (although much that I have read indicates a bunch of confusion regarding this). even if there had been too much noise on the Tac Channel, they should have been able to successfully communicate, via this protocol, with Air Attack, via Air2Ground, using this protocol.
I agree with both RTS in that some fault lie with GM on this, and also with WTKTT that some fault lie with Air Attack on this. Just another piece of the fuster-cluck that was playing itself out on this fire.
In the report on the Valley Fire, it was said that the crew sent out a “MayDay” call. There’s no more detail about this in that report.
I’m really confused by all that I have read that there is, actually a functioning protocol that is actually working regarding this.
Marti remember that AA is in fact monitoring and talking on Air To Air, Air to Ground and on VHF with air tankers and any other air craft a lot goes on in that cockpit. I have done it a few times.
You are responsible for keeping air craft apart getting info on drops and relaying that info to lead plane and Air Tankers.
The crew where they were may not of herd other Ground to Air talk and only the AA side.
I wont argue the point that’s the way I was thought by my first FMO and he was very adamant about it. Every one else in California did it that way. I never had to use it but I have herd others for severial reasons use it. None as horrific as a Fatality
but for other Accidents
Reply to Bob Powers post on
December 14, 2015 at 4:55 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Sorry WTKTT but you first have to get an open
>> channel with all the traffic going on trying to talk
>> over every body else dose no work. that was our
>> training for Fires—————————-
Well… we now have a complete VIDEO and AUDIO capture of how well THAT approach works, don’t we?
There was NO HEAVY RADIO TRAFFIC going on at the moment Jesse Steed initiated his first MAYDAY call. If he had followed the established protocol… then it also wouldn’t have taken 2 FULL HOURS to even find their bodies.
The STANDARD is that you DO NO WAIT FOR PERMISSION TO SPEAK before supplying critical information like LOCATION.
Even if the person you might WANT to talk to doesn’t hear you at first… someone else monitoring the same frequency most likely WILL hear it… and if you then become unable to respond… there’s still a good chance the critical information you just gave will have been heard by SOMEONE and become generally known.
I think your training was FLAWED… and I’m glad it wasn’t YOUR voice we were hearing for almost 3 fucking minutes just waiting for ‘permission to speak’.
2 minutes + is long enough time to provide a lot of potentially very important information…
WTKTT I think your information is Flawed OK Pay attention
After you mayday and Break you come back in 2 or 3 seconds if no one calls you.
And you give your emergency and location to who ever you can contact. On the Forest The Dispatch came back with ALL UNITS CLEAR FOR TRAFFIC SO AND SO WHAT IS YOUR MAYDAY?????????? The same for Fire dispatch, AA or who ever could hear the Party.
You haven’t been there you have no Fucking Idea And I will State one last time that is how we did it I did it and how the old FMO that started and did it in the early 40’s
It worked with the fucking Radio systems we had and the new multi channels they have to day and before I retired.
You have not been on a Fire to understand the Radios you monitor multi channels with one channel selected as priority if that channel is busy then those on it will not hear any other calls on other frequency’s. You select the Frequency that you can receive and talk out on and Call your Mayday at the first break in traffic.
It worked for over 50 years weather you agree with it or not
In an Air Plane its a dedicated frequency and a Mayday followed by the problem and location is easy to get a cross to a dispatch or control tower.
Without a Mayday ground to air dose not get a lot of priority when a AA is busy coordinating Helicopters Fixed wing and Air Tankers.
One last thing the AA and all other air craft are hearing the trans missions thru a head set with their priority channel The AA at a minimum is listening to 5 or 6 different frequency’s and one is priority which means that channel will cut out all others when some one keys the mike.
Bob,
Calm down. Seriously. Calm down, Ol’ buddy. I’m not sure why you’re getting so riled up. I’m current, bro. The ATG traffic was NOT so busy that he couldn’t answer. Give me an ever loving break. Pick another battle.
Woodsman
Ok— I realize the Air to Ground was not busy but realize that the Air to Air 2 Helicopters an Air Tanker and a Lead plane were at that point heavily involved in attacking the Fire Blow up.
Those things can take the AA in to another dimension keeping air craft separated from each other and saving structures and fire line and working on the Radio with OPS.
I like battle I am familiar with and this is one.
Sorry you disagree.
I was a red carded Type 2 Air Attack Boss.
You want responsibility action and decision making its a stressful position.
I never realized how much traffic goes thru the radios in that seat till I spent time there.
Bob… we HAVE a full capture of ALL the A2A traffic and what Thomas French WAS doing/saying in that timeframe.
Answer: Not much at all.
He, himself, has just told pilot Kevin in the VLAT “We’re ALONE on the fire now”.
He was lining up a run with Kevin… but even the A2A channel was NOT THAT BUSY at that time.
Remember, also, that even when almost 3 minutes had been WASTED just trying to get this ‘permission to speak’ you seem to keep talking about…
When Eric Marsh himself was finally given that ‘permission to speak’… he also BLEW IT.
He described their situation… but FAILED to provide their exact LOCATION.
Burfiend made one last vague attempt to clarify that asking “Sooo… you’re ( somewhere? ) on the south side of the fire, then?”
But even then… in his final transmit… Marsh didn’t provide the critical information like “640 yards west of Boulder Springs Ranch”.
All he said was “Affirm”
( SOMEWHERE on the south side of fire ).
It then took TWO HOURS to even find the bodies.
We are looking at a TOTAL FAIL here… and the WFF industry should get its head out of its ass and make sure nothing like THAT ever happens again.
WTKTT we seem to not be communicating with each other.
First I totally agree with you the Marsh and Steed did not indicate there emergency to get the attention of AA. I agree with every thing you said but one thing.
The AA can not read into we are in front of the Flaming front what should have been a MAYDAY.
You want to blame the AA for not understanding what was being said.
Do you think that discussing the approach and the drop was done with hand signals????
He is talking to his pilot and showing the lead plane where he wants the next drop the access in and out for the run.
A simple MAYDAY or 3 MAYDAYS would have got every body’s attention. Marsh should have given precise information of emergency and their exact location.
Thus the rest of the confusion.
Hollering over a radio to a AA with a head set on did not help him understand what was being said. Stop Hollering Head sets magnify the transmission..
Sorry if I am not getting this info to you in this format Yes and NO the AA could have also been more understanding about the call.
All I was saying you have to ask for the radio first thru a MAYDAY or what ever to get the attention and ability to give your information.
Then you have to be a lot more precise with a planed response of exact location if you are going to ask for an mediate drop I doubt they could have been seen from the air at that point.
“The Team found no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.” Really?
What pure bullshit this statement is. How is it possible to do everything right and yet kill 19 WFF?
It’s NOT possible! This is the biggest coverup and whitewash in WFF history!
WTKTT,
“The crew followed ALL STANDARDS AND GUIDELINES as stated in the Standards for Interagency Hotshot Crew Operations and the Arizona State Forestry Division’s Standard Operational Guideline 804.”
More bullshit. If they had in fact “followed ALL STANDARDS AND GUIDELINES as stated in the Standards for Interagency Hotshot Crew Operations and the Arizona State Forestry Division’s Standard Operational Guideline 804,” then they would have stayed in the black and still be alive today.
Once again, I allege the YH Fire SAIT and SAIR was the biggest coverup and whitewash in WFF history!
RTS,
I couldn’t agree with you more, why waste the money and effort for this BS. I am embarrassed to be apart of the WFF organization if this is what our ” leadership” is willing to accept and be apart of! Total BS!!
Norb,
The thing most disturbing to me is that most of it, the lies and coverup, was intentional. They meant to do this. Some incompetence, but mostly intentional. They think we are stupid or not able to handle the truth.
That is truly the new way of investigations they are directed not to find individual fault or assign Names to failed use of rules.
That started causing all the law suits and legal mumbo jumbo.
So the new direction. Don’t identify the 10 standard orders that were violated or those that violated them.
Just provide the info of the accident and let the reader come to their conclusions. The CRAP investigation is just a refined one from the Yarnell Hill SAIT. they are still tip toeing around the facts with a little different approach. It is still going to be a piece of shit.
We are already seeing this year.
No One Did Any Thing Wrong Find your own lessons learned.
CRAP —That pretty much says it all in four letters.
Bob… I think you are right… but if that’s all they are ever going to do then I want them to STOP wasting your taxpayer dollars ( and mine, and everyone else’s ) doing it.
It’s a WASTE OF TIME ( and TAXPAYER dollars ).
If the industry isn’t really seriously interested in LEARNING the whole TRUTH about its own internal accidents… then fuck it… don’t waste any money or time ‘pretending’.
Just let OSHA do ALL the workplace accident investigations… just like they do for every single other ‘business’ and ‘workplace’.
The only reason we have ANY real idea what happened in Yarnell is because ADOSH at least got to SOME of the truth.
Same for Twisp. We aren’t going to really know WHAT was actually going down until we see that OSHA report.
So why is USFS even wasting your ( and everyone else’s money ) for worthless dog-and-pony feel-good reports?
Totally agree !!
I couldn’t agree more.
NIOSH has already been investigating wildfire fatalities. I’m sure they would be delighted to expand.
The problem is they State or Federal are totally charged with investigating Fatalities.
It seems to be the new way of doing it use to be Call a Spade a Spade and detail what happened and why.
We are now living in a touchy feely world that no one wants to upset the Family, Public or fellow workers with the real facts that end up in court which they are still doing so who is winning this game?
Bob:
Agreed. And the law of unintended consequences rears its ugly head…the age of ‘everybody gets a trophy’ will end up making it all far worse because of the cover-up instead of the truth.
Woodsman
Reply to Marti Reed post on
December 14, 2015 at 5:06 pm
>> Marti Reed said…
>>
>> I couldn’t agree more.
>>
>> NIOSH has already been investigating
>> wildfire fatalities. I’m sure they would
>> be delighted to expand.
Well… I don’t think anyone will be ‘delighted’ to now have the primary responsibility to figure out why some dead Wildland Firefighters got themselves dead… but I hear ya.
The KEY thing is to get PROFESSIONAL INVESTIGATORS involved. People who do THAT for a LIVING… and not some tossed-together group of FFs who don’t have the faintest idea how to conduct a professional level accident investigation.
Yes, perhaps “delighted” was not the best adjective to use.
But I do think they are concerned.
I’ve been collecting some links to some articles, etc, documenting what they are doing regarding Wildland Fire LODDs. It’s pretty significant imho.
Still trying to figure out what, exactly, can trigger a NIOSH investigation into a Wildland Fire LODD.
They actually offered to investigate Yarnell, but were (ahem) “turned down.”
Their focus is, also, not to “assign blame.” But they ARE focused on recognizing, documenting, and advocating for organizational and systemic changes to stop fire-fighters (including wildland fire-fighters) from being relentlessly killed on fires.
For that, I think they are worth paying attention to, which I am.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 13, 2015 at 10:45 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> “The crew followed ALL STANDARDS AND GUIDELINES”
The reason I posted that blurb from the SAIR was in response to you pointing out how ‘botched up’ the Air-To-Ground communication really was.
It was in NO WAY even CLOSE the ‘STANDARDS AND GUIDELINES’ for initiating an emergency radio call… on any planet.
Yet… “No one did anything wrong that day. Move along. Move along”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Once again, I allege the YH Fire SAIT and SAIR was the
>> biggest coverup and whitewash in WFF history!
And we still have no final figure on how much that COST you and me and anyone else who pays their taxes.
We ain’t talkin’ just 6 figures here. Easily 7+.
Personally… I still want a REFUND.
I would settle for some charges of “misappropriation of public money”.
WTKTT,
The money issue means nothing to these alleged ‘Investigators.’ I know of investigations where they KNOW force fact something occured yet they state “it is not our responsibility to question other findings or conclusions” or “we will not investigaye this area necause it was not in our Delegation of Authority.”
They have the Federal Treasury you draw from, what’s the big deal, it’s your Tax Dollars at work here. Trust us. We work for the Government, we’re here to help you.
Like RTS says just a drop in the bucket of Fire expenses and yes it was charged to the Fire ARZ. STATE not the Feds even though many were Federal Employees It is added to the Fire cost Charge number as far as I know.
Between 150,000 and 400.000 including travel and lodging at a Minimum. .
They got what they asked for AZ Fire paid with out complaint for the investigation It probably cost them more for the Law Suits ????
MISAPPROPRIATION OF PUBLIC MONIES
The illegal practice of accepting public tax dollars earmarked for a specific purpose and spending the money on something for which it was not intended.
The taxpayers of Arizona pad for a…
“Special Accident Investigation”.
What they GOT ( instead ) was a pre-determined narrative, a whitewash, a coverup, and their tax dollars being spent on something OTHER than a ‘true investigation’.
In most states… it’s a FELONY.
They got exactly what is outlined in the SAIT procedures.
The State is happy they beat the Legal Challenges using the SAIT as ground work.
You will never reach there as a Felony or any thing else.
They did what the investigation outline told them to do.
Do I like it Hell No
We are not going to change it only the National level will change it and they did not do it this year. They just created a different direction with the same out come.
The only great thing they did was name it CRAP!!!
“The only great thing they did was name it CRAP!!!”
Truly.
How tone-deaf could that possibly be?
Sheesh..
Bob and Martin,
CORRECTION: I may be Captain Obvious here, but WE few at IM appropriately named it CRAP from the Agency acronym of CRP, the Coordinated Response Protocol.
CRP is CRAP! It will NOT use the Ten Standard Fire Orders or The Eighteen Watch Out Situations as objective standards. Instead, it fails to find fault or lay blame; it’s much more s e n s i t i v e. How warm and fuzzy and squishy.
WFF fatalities do NOT just HAPPEN. You do NOT just discover you are trapped as the NASA fire shelter article stated. Somebody f**ked up. It’s someone’s fault. Get over it. WTF!
Therefore it’s worthless as far as I’m concerned, it’s CRAP!
CORRECTION: auto correct went from Marti to Martin. Sorry Marti
Please be advised that I am making a significant change in my on-line personality. Although I have enjoyed channeling my olde back-of-the-hotshot-bus self, I have not made the progress in learning the truth surrounding the Yarnell Hill Fire I had hoped for over the past 2 and ½ years.
Therefore, I am going to leave the happy place in my mind and start channeling my old federal agent self. And since we all eventually revert to our training and our experiences when faced with obstacles in our lives, I am going to try this new approach in the hope I can make more of a positive difference than I have made up until now.
As a result of my new thinking, I have decided to make an existential leap by continuing to develop a Go Fund Me campaign. The money collected by this campaign will eventually be dispensed to Sources of Information by the same standards (Standard Operating Procedures) used by federal law enforcement agencies when paying for information.
The funds raised in this campaign will be paid to cooperating sources of information in exchange for verifiable information regarding the facts that are unknown to the general public pertaining to the Yarnell Hill Fire and its aftermath.
I am going to continue to develop the current Go Fund Me campaign page over the next few days and refine it over the next few weeks. In truth, the site will never be finished since there will always be new material to add and/or modify. But in the meantime, the following are some general guidelines that I am using as a framework to build the campaign around.
1. I am not looking for Confidential Informants or snitches, I am searching for legitimate Sources of Information who are willing to do the right thing for the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew, their families, the wildland firefighting community and the general American taxpaying public at large.
There is a big difference. Snitches have pending charges hanging over their heads and they have to cooperate more or less. I am looking for individuals who are interested in participating in a business transaction. We will compensate them for their knowledge, time and professional risk. There is actually a relatively small pool of potential sources for the specific information we are interested in and we know most of them by name.
2. I have set a goal to raise $100,000 in the campaign. This money will be paid out in increments of $5000.00, with up to a total of $25,000 per individual for verifiable and pertinent information. The full story gets the full $25,000. I would like to fund up to four sources. The money will be paid out according to federal law enforcement standards for SOI payments (an area where I happen to have had a lot of experience) and the payments will be witnessed by a credible second person who will be identified later.
3. I will gather initial information through the mail by creating a specific drop box (UPS Office Box Site) to receive written submissions that I will pay for. Emails and telephone calls will not be used to prevent any security breaches or to create a scenario where someone tries to compel me to turn over emails or telephone records with a court order.
We must maintain OPSEC at all times just as a matter of maintaining good habits. Therefore, I do not want anyone to contact me by telephone or email. Use only GSA DoD approved Type 3AC (Air Combustible) lacquer based rice paper for all written communication (just joking…old habits die hard) and DO not write me using invisible ink.
4. SOI’s will be guaranteed confidentiality come hell or high water. I cannot be compelled to surrender information. I rent where I live and what I drive, I have very few possessions and retirement funds are off limits by law to everyone except the IRS, so nobody can seize anything I have. This is NOT a criminal matter where I could be subpoenaed and forced testify, these payments will be a business transaction is a civil matter at worst, but will most likely never be anything more than an administrative case.
Marti was actually wrong when she stated why I am as bold (as Joy says as) as I am. It is not because I live in Washington State. That is actually more problematic for me than if I lived in Arizona. I can still be sued by anybody at any time for any reason whether I live in Washington or Arizona and serving me court papers is just a matter of hiring a process server here in Washington instead of Arizona.
Going back to Arizona to hire a lawyer to defend myself is my problem and would be at my expense. It would be far better to be sued if I were in Arizona instead of here. And may I remind Marti and everyone else, I did live in Flagstaff for more than one year when Willis did threaten to sue me and I didn’t back down. I would have sued me if I was him and I still would. I actually have a different plan if I am sued. I have always wanted to be an expat.
5. Of course my time will be donated to the project and my travel will be compensated according to GSA federal government per diem and travel regulations if there is any travel to meet with sources of information. I do have 3 trips to the southwest planned for 2016 to go Jeeping in Utah, Colorado and New Mexico. If I can meet with anyone who wishes to help us while I am down there during those times, the fund will not be charged travel for me to go on into Arizona.
Any money that is left over because it is not payable to a qualified SOI after two years will be donated to Investigative Media to fund further investigations into the Yarnell Hill Fire. John Dougherty has invested many hundreds if not thousands of hours of non compensated man hours into this investigation since June 30, 2013, and no matter how much we are able to donate to him after this campaign is shut down, it will not be as much as he has spent since time is money.
http://www.zazzle.com/congress_arizona* sends you support today-
you just answered and channeled my prayers
I have had the private snitches in my humble opinions but I want that firefighter we saw your footage to be first to get your $5,000 or $25,000 so praying he sees this—
that footage alone is an important documentation-
oorah gary oorah
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on December 11, 2015 at 2:32 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I found this AMAZING, COMPREHENSIVE (Arizona Industrial Commission) ICA
>> Commission/ADOSH report of 175 pages containing a blend of ADOSH citations
>> and supporting documentation, photos and images, select images and photos
>> and more from the YHF SAIR, the Wildland Fire Associates GMHS Entrapment
>> and Burnover Investigation report, and more.
>>
>> https://cryptome.org/2013/12/yarnell-hill-fire-13-1204.pdf
>>
>> BE PATIENT, it takes awhile to download 175 pages with lots of images.
Yes. I’ve seen that document before and there’s no doubt that there are some ‘charts’ and ‘diagrams’ in there that the Wildland Fire Associates ( WFA ) contractors did that never got much attention.
Charts showing BOTH ‘firelines’ at various times ALONG with standard ‘WIND direction’ notation, stuff like that.
But I just looked through the whole thing again and I saw something I MISSED before.
It might be VERY important, given what we know now about the very real possibility that both Musser and Cordes had set this ‘Hail Mary’ plan into action in order to try and save some/all of Glen Ilah.
On PDF page 135 ( of 175 pages ), there is ‘Figure 15’.
Caption for ‘Figure 15’ is…
———————————————————————
Figure 15. Yarnell Hill Fire’s final outline perimeter ( thick, orange outline ).
Topographic map showing PROPOSED burnout and DOZER LINE.
Deployment site marked with a green circle.
———————————————————————
On the RGHT side of this ‘Figure 15’ is an ‘annotation box’ that says
“Proposed Dozer Line”, and it has an ARROW pointing to the location of
that ‘Cutover Trail’ that Blue Ridge had been told to ‘improve’ as a firebreak,
but they ran out of time to even use more than 1 tank of saw gas on it
before they had to evacuate that day.
But it’s not the ARROW that is interesting.
It’s the complete ‘RED SQUIGGLY LINE’ that someone drew representing
this “Proposed Dozer Line” there near Yarnell / Glen Ilah.
The ‘RED SQUIGGLY LINE’ representing this “Proposed Dozer Line” doesn’t
STOP at the ‘Sesame clearing’ area, as one might have thought from reading
most of the ‘interviews’ and Blue Ridge’s own Unit Logs.
Whoever drew that ‘RED QUIGGLY LINE’ that supposedly represented the “Proposed
Dozer Line” has it extending ALL THE WAY SOUTH to where the pavement of Lakewood
and Manaznita Drives ended there at the WEST end of Glen Ilah.
In other words… ALL THE WAY to where the Dozer LOBOY and the Blue Ridge Chase
truck had been STAGED since that morning.
The DRIVEWAY that goes out to the Boulder Springs Ranch begins right there near this spot, and that BSR driveway was an IDEAL ‘firebreak’… ALREADY IMPROVED.
It was a solid 24 feet wide and clean as a whistle, with mostly rock formations on either side of it all the way out to the BSR.
There was/is also a perfectly visible DRY CREEK BED that extends from that point where the Dozer loboy was staged and CONNECTS over to this BSR DRIVEWAY.
It really would have been a no-brainer to just ‘connect’ the south end of what this DIAGRAM is showing as the complete “Proposed Dozer Line” with the ready-to-go BSR driveway to the WEST with just a short 100-200 yard ‘Dozer push’. through that DRY CREEK BED…
…and Voila!… a pretty good ’emergency fire break’ extending ALL THE WAY from the Boulder Springs Ranch itself, around the west end of Glen Ilah, north in the Sesame area, and then EAST towards the Shrine Youth Camp.
This really is the first I’ve seen of anyone drawing a DIAGRAM of that “Proposed Dozer Line” that was supposedly Gary Cordes’ original idea and drawing it ALL THE WAY down to where the Dozer loboy was staged… and ending just 100 to 200 yards away from the driveway to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
If you really did think there was time for a ‘Hail Mary’ plan to ( fingers crossed ) try and make the fire skirt AROUND Glen Ilah… then this ‘RED SQUIGGLY LINE’ showing on this ‘Figure 15’ would have been exactly the RIGHT ( the ONLY? ) plan you would have time for….
…buy you still might be thinking you’d need some ‘Hotshots’ to just finish off that final 100-200 yard dozer push through that DRY CREEK BED to ‘connect the dots’.
Followup…
And these 2 crucial ‘points’ between the south end of the ‘RED SQUIGGLY LINE’ just discovered in that ‘Figure 15’ and the start of the ‘ready-to-go-as-part-of-a-firebreak’ beginning of the Boulder Spring Driveway would have BOTH been perfectly visible to DIVSA Eric Marsh that day.
From where he was circa 3:45 PM, when Frisby has jsut abandonded his ‘face-to-face’ with Marsh and was now ‘rescuing’ Brendan McDonough… Marsh could have seen BOTH of these ‘points’ out there in the distance.
That is also now the time we KNOW that Eric Marsh decided to leave the safe black himself and just high-tail it down to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Maybe this ‘connect those two dots down there’ plan was actually what Marsh wanted to SHOW Frisby from his vantage point… and why he had requested that new ‘face-to-face’ in the first place.
Also… Marsh had actually DRIVEN the south half of what “Figure 15” is now showing as the “Proposed Dozer Line” himself that very morning.
That’s the exact route he took himself to get out to the top of the Sesame clearing area that morning, and he would have still had a ‘visual’ in his head on that in addition to what he could clearly see circa 3:45 PM from his vantage point out on that ridge.
The only ‘part of the plan’ that remained to be ‘scouted’ was how to quickly connect that south end of the ‘RED SQUIGGLY LINE’ now discovered in “Figure 15” with the actual start of the Boulder Springs Driveway.
So maybe that’s what Cory Ball’s ‘assignment’ from Gary Cordes was.
Just ‘scout out’ the fastest way to connect those ‘two points’ out there at the WEST end of Glen Ilah.
Interesting. Thanks, both of you. I started reading the report last night, but dang the typing is hard for my already tired eyes to stick with for long. And I wasn’t sure how much of what is included is stuff I hadn’t seen before. But it’s good to go back over it.
OK. Looking at the map.
What confused me was this:
” ALL THE WAY SOUTH to where the pavement of Lakewood
and Manaznita Drives ended there at the WEST end of Glen Ilah.”
To me, that’s really the north end of Glen Ilah. Whatever.
I’m finding it hard to visualize what you’re saying using this map itself. I can’t even see Boulder Springs Ranch on this map, much less the driveway to it. Am I missing something?
BUT. Since we discussed this route of this proposed line last spring, I can see it in my head better (since we were using, I think Google Earth). Yes, this is what we were discussing. This would have been the most likely scenario for Gary Cordes’ “plan.” It was a no-brainer.
And, apparently, who-ever drew up this map saw it as obvious, also.
And, yes, I agree, Eric was MOST likely to have been able to see it. And, I agree he was probably intending to point it out to Brian Frisby.
Maybe he even discussed it over a cellphone with Cordes? Or even Musser? Since it was such a no-brainer? Maybe they even had maps on their cellphones? Maybe even Cory Ball also did? Wow. Maybe it’s the 21st Century, after all?
Good catch, WTKTT. Thanks!
Can’t read the report now, only have cell phone. I have said before that is the only explanation a crew would leave the safety of the black( still not justified) and I can guarentee that the person ( s) who came up with that plan would WANT a HS crew to carry it out due to the increasing complexities in making it ( the Hail Mary ) a successful operation.
At the moment Brendan McDonough was forced off his lookout mound ( 3:35 PM )… there was already not a goddamn thing any group of guys with wooden sticks and metal heads and the odd chainsaw were going to be able to accomplish other than “Hunker and be safe” ( as they were ORDERED to do by their direct up-level OPS1 Field Supervisor ) and make sure they got home to their families.
To even attempt to do anything other than that, at that time, in those conditions, or to ASK or ORDER anyone else to attempt to do so… still amounts to “criminal negligence” with a fairly large “depraved indifference” component.
“Depraved indifference” is a legal term that is usually the waterline between whether someone is charged with “Manslaughter 1” or “Manslaughter 2”.
WTKTT,
This is an interesting Wildfire Today article on this subject. One of the interesting quotes from an attorney is: “… convictions were likelier on cases involving issues such as ALCOHOL, DRUGS, or horseplay. ”
It highlighted the 2001 30-Mile Fire in WA when 4 WFF died. This SAIR was another blatant coverup and whitewash.of what caused these fatalities.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2010/07/24/issue-of-firefighters-charged-with-manslaughter-discussed-at-firehouse-expo/
“Some factors can make a case indefensible, according to the attorney.
Date: Dec 12, 2015 6:22 PM
Subject: 19 site
Hey Joy Are you over at the site? Are you sending out signals? Someone is out there with a blue light comes on and then it get really bright yellow/orange and goes out. It has happened 3 times since I’m been looking out the side window.
————————————————————-
19 SITE police— go check it out— I was just asked if I was there…I have perimeter cameras that prove where I am and I took a photo of the tv screen watching a movie resting with gps and timestamp…for the record, the unjust I seen this here desert walker will NEVER lay foot on the Yarnell side of the Weavers so the world rest assure go see who is there and taking your bronze statue— to me after all the hikes and my health the state serving me and only me such rubbish—oh you bet I have a distaste for the area—and how I was treated—not even Tex was served—
I only have in my head is the noise of a judge’s gavel…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbEuMTOA3fo
JUSTICE WAS SERVED!
>> Someone is out there with a blue light comes on and then
>> it get really bright yellow/orange and goes out.
Sounds very much like someone is simply out there WELDING something.
it was the Helms place—next morning I got another email saying they used binoculars and it was a new style light over there not site 19
First let me say I am Struggling to go thru the Reports as they are bringing back old memories I thought I was Past. I have only managed 9.
One question that WTKTT brought up.
My understanding is the Held or hold on the tissues and other samples—-
That means they took the samples but did not run any additional lab work unless the Sheriff wanted more info or checks on the information they did provide.
If additional info and conclusions were done, they would be on a seperiate form with analyses of the lab information. There– may or may not– be this additional report.
It dose seem strange that there was not some follow up on the 1 Drug finding and the BAC levels on the other 13. The samples were taken and I assume stored for each person.
Based on what I have gone thru so far that seems to be the case.
I may be wrong but I believe the County would have to pay for the additional reports???????
Just a note on my memory recall- The Rattle Snake Fire– all the Bodies there were burned beyond recognition. The only reason they knew the body was my dad was because of his Oklahoma A&M belt buckle and his FS Badge That’s It. Many of the other 14 were not Identified for Quite a while. No Nomex clothing and no Fire shelters back then. 4th degree burning including the boots and clothes totally consumed.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 12, 2015 at 2:05 pm
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> My understanding is the Held or hold on the tissues and other samples—-
>>
>> That means they took the samples but did not run any additional lab work
>> unless the Sheriff wanted more info or checks on the information they did provide.
That would make sense. It would also explain the use of the word HOLD instead of using the word PENDING.
PENDING means the additional tests are ‘underway’ but results were not available yet.
HOLD would mean those ‘additional tests’ are NOT underway yet, and will NOT be unless someone says they NEED them.
The strange science of Dr./Medical Examiners or what have you??????
We got the stuff tell us what you want or need.
Beats me. This was a ‘National tragedy’ and an historic event.
They knew that already, by the time they started their work on July 2.
To render any kind of definitive opinion on the BAC results that they knew were ‘forthcoming’… I would think they would have AUTOMATICALLY required ALL of the other relevant testing to proceed in parallel with the blood work in order to be able to (ultimately) compare ALL results and issue a ‘definitive opinion’ in these (historic) cases and in such a large industrial accident case.
But it looks like they never did that.
WTKTT,
Here’s a relevant excerpt ‘regarding the recommended Alcohol and Drugs’ protocol from a very comprehensive NFPA FEMA publication titled:”Firefighter Autopsy Protocol. The link is at the bottom of the excerpt for the report. The report also notes that each state may have different protocols.
iii.4 Alcohol and drugs
A relatively routine examination as part of any autopsy is an alcohol and drug screen .these analyses are provided as part of toxicology reports .toxicology reports in most autopsies document the positive and negative findings of a series of tests conducted to detect specific substances that may have caused death . Such tests commonly include tests for the presence of pharmacological agents and illegal drugs . Blood tests for the presence of ethyl alcohol are conducted to determine whether the deceased was under the influence of an intoxicating beverage at the time of death . in the case of fire victims, the toxicology report should include analyses of blood, urine, other body fluids, and tissues for the presence of combustion products and other toxicants and their biomarkers (see section below), as well as alcohol and drugs .
it is extremely important that, in the determination of alcohol levels, the effects of postmortem changes and specimen storage be accounted for . Blood alcohol concentrations obtained at autopsy are valid until putrefaction begins . this may vary from several hours to a few days, depending on the environment . Most autopsy procedures recommend the addition of sodium fluoride at a concentration of 10 mg/ml of blood to the sample and the storage of the sample in a refrigerator . Considerations for evaluation of blood alcohol levels include
■ if the blood is analyzed soon after withdrawal or if the blood is kept in the refrigerator, results usually are reliable, even if no sodium fluoride has been added .
■ if the air space about the blood sample is large, alcohol can evaporate and a falsely low blood alcohol level can result .
■ Putrefaction changes before autopsy or during storage may cause a falsely high blood alcohol concentration . ethanol can be produced in the specimen container, usually in the absence of a preservative, as the fluoride inhibits bacteria far more effectively than fungi . higher fluoride concentrations are required for inhibiting fungal growth .13
■ Although there is no major difference in alcohol concentrations of blood samples from the intact heart chambers and the femoral vessels, autopsy samples from pooled blood in the pericardial sac or pleural cavity are unsatisfactory; blood should be withdrawn from peripheral vessels .
■ Blood alcohol concentrations vary from vitreous, urine, or tissue samples as compared to alcohol determined through stomach contents .these variations depend on whether blood alcohol concentrations were increasing or decreasing at the time of death .
13 harper D .R . and J .e .l . Correy . “Collection and storage of specimens for alcohol analysis .” In Medicolegal Aspects of Alcohol, J .C . garriott, ed . Phoenix: lawyers and Judges Publishing Co ., 1997, pp . 145-169 .
14 Caplan y .h ., “Blood, urine and other tissue specimens for alcohol analysis .” In Medicolegal Aspects of Alcohol, J .C . garriott, ed . Phoenix: lawyers and Judges Publishing Co ., 1997, pp . 74-86 .
the principal drugs for analysis include those for common narcotics, barbiturates, amphetamines, hallucinogens, or cannabinoids .tests for other prescription and nonprescription drugs are performed occasionally to detect such compounds as common steroids, analgesics, and other indicators of coexisting illnesses/conditions, as well as of drugs used in emergency resuscitation attempts . Methods typically used in these analyses are described in table 2 .
table 2. common methodologies for toxicological Analysis
Technique
Volatiles by Gas Chromatography (GC)
Specific drug screening by Enzyme- Multiplied Immunoassay (EMIT)
Specific drug screening by Enzyme- Linked Immunosorbent Assay (ELISA)
Drug screening by Thin-Layer Chromatography (TLC)
General drug screening, identification, and quantification by High-Performance Liquid Chromatography (HPLC)
Specific drug identification and quantifi- cation by Gas Chromatography linked to Mass Spectrometry (GC/MS)
How Used
Usually used for testing ethanol content; testing is applied as part of a general panel to detect and quantify numerous volatile compounds that include methyl, ethyl, and isopropyl alcohols and ketones. t-Butyl alcohol is used as an internal standard because it does not occur naturally.
EMIT can detect but not quantify dependence drugs of abuse. Specific test panels are avail- able for cocaine metabolites, tricyclic antidepressants, barbiturates, cannabinoids, amphet- amines, opiates, and propoxyphene. The technique does not detect drugs at parts per billion (ppb) levels.
ELISA uses antibodies as a more effective technique compared to EMIT (which it is supplant- ing). ELISA can detect drugs at ppb levels.
TLC is used a general drug screen in lieu of EMIT and ELISA, which use panels for specific drugs.
HPLC is used most commonly in place of TLC, given its greater sophistication and use of computerized compound matching. HPLC can be used as a general screening technique, but also has been configured for specific drug or substance analyses. HPLC is preferred for drugs that decompose in GC/MS injection procedures.
GC/MS is now the preferred overall technique for analysis of specific drugs. Gas chromatog- raphy provides the separation of compounds in wet sample fluids while the mass spectrome- try provides the identification and quantification of each analyte using computerized matching compound libraries. Specific separation techniques must be applied to identify specific drugs.
Advances are being made each year in progressively more capable and sensitive analytical equipment and procedures that can be applied to the analysis of substances in autopsy tissues and fluid samples. it is important to apply the most up-to-date techniques when conducting specific analyses for alcohol and drug levels . A number of references are provided at the back of the protocol on the subject of alcohol and drug testing .
https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/firefighter_autopsy_protocol.pdf
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 13, 2015 at 8:28 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Here’s a relevant excerpt ‘regarding the recommended
>> Alcohol and Drugs’ protocol from a very comprehensive
>> NFPA FEMA publication titled:”Firefighter Autopsy
>> Protocol. The link is at the bottom of the excerpt for
>> the report. The report also notes that each state may
>> have different protocols.
Thank you, RTS.
Yes… most of that lines up with all the other information I’ve seen.
The use of ‘stabilizing agents’ in the samples such as sodium fluoride ( and others… even anti-coagulants ) is essential.
Unfortunately, even the reports just released don’t even mention whether that industry standard was followed. I suppose we just need to ASSUME it was.
It’s all about TIME here… the rate of decomposition… and the quality of the samples.
Here is just one link online about it taking up to FIVE DAYS ( 120 HOURS ) for a post-mortem fermentation process to produce a BAC content as high as 0.08 g%, which amounts to ‘legally drunk’ in all 50 states.
TWO of the Granite Mountain Hotshots ended up with BAC content readings of even MORE than that ( 0.09 g% ) after only 19 hours and 47 minutes ( less than even ONE day ) between ‘Time of Death’ and ‘Cadaver Stabilzation’ ( cold storage of the cadaver ).
Fermentation in DUI Blood Tests
http://losangeles.california-drunkdriving.org/blood_fermentation.html
From the article…
————————————————————-
Candida albicans, the most common microbial culprit of ethanol production in blood samples, can produce ethanol. Blume, Bacterial Contamination on BAC Stability, 60 American journal of Clinical Pathology 700 (1973). Specimens stored at room temperature for MORE THAN FIVE DAYS showed significant alcohol formation (up to 0.08 percent maximum) in a study by Chang arid Kollman, The Effect of Temperature on the Formation of Ethyl Alcohol by Candida Aihacans in the Blood, 34(1) JFSCA 105 (Jan. 1989).
————————————————————-
I’m still researching this… but AFAICT… to have TWO samples of MORE than 0.08 g% BAC showing up in two bodies from the same incident, with matching circumstances and LESS than even 1 day before ‘stabilization’… and to have that be solely the result of post-mortem fermentation of alcohol… would be highly, highly UNUSUAL.
Almost unheard of.
More later.
WTKTT,
Agreed. Most of those with BAC were unfit for duty that morning. They were hungover all day. Decomposition was de minimus, only a very small sampling.
Red herring and Straw man fallacies trying to draw people away from the truth.
I just want to say that I do not mind, and have never minded, being corrected in any of my assertions. I have no personal dog in any of this. (Even when I had to spend a whole bunch of time re-working and re-thinking the entire narrative I had concocted inside of my mind after WTKTT challenged me on “the trucks.”)
I have personally put forth some theories that have, in my own mind, been kind of “pushing the envelope,”
Including that the Yarnell Hill Fire turned into a rotating double column.
And that Paul Musser was involved in executing a last-ditch Hail-Mary plan to create a dozer line and burn it out, that involved the Granite Mountain Hotshots, and that he, also, provided the transportation (and acquisition) for Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball to acquire an ATV from the Yarnell Fire Department in order to help carry out that plan. (Publishing that kind of freaked me out, seriously).
And, also (and this was my first one), that Darrell Willis manipulated the evidence stream regarding Chris McKenzie’s camera, for what reason I don’t know, but that that says something about him. (Publishing that also kind of freaked me out, also).
None of these claims have ever been refuted.
But I have always said that I am open to anybody doing so.
I am more interested in discovering the truth than I am in protecting any kind of agenda.
I just think that this is a good time and place to affirm that this is where I am coming from.
Marti,
Here’s the link for the IC document quotes above
https://cryptome.org/2013/12/yarnell-hill-fire-13-1204.pdf
Always some good thoughts and ideas from you Marti. Keeps us thinking. Thanks Sonny.
I don’t know how to take some of my results and so let me run it by some specialists— I am actually looking up my insurance company to learn how to establish a nephrologist to handle an immediate area…but before I log off remember this people who have not spoken up—19 died—
In a blink of an eye your life can change FOREVER just like the 19 and many homeowners and people who died since the fire…think about it—SPEAK UP!
Wishing you the best, Joy. And yes, I understand.
Marti,
These are not in chronological order. The order is how they were listed in the above ICA report which has a lot of ADOSH. citations.
“At 1327, the ASFD District Forester (Jim Downey) and Hall developed a complexity analysis. Based
upon the analysis, Hall recommended ordering a full Type 2 IMT. However, Downey and Geyer
changed the recommendation to a Type 1 IMT and placed the order through ADC at 1413 hours.”
page 21
“ASFD District Forester Jim Downey was assigned as the person in charge of the entire fire suppression effort.” page 40
“”The fire was in the assigned area of District Forester Jim Downey. Downey assigned a Type 4 Initial Attack Incident Commander, Russ Shumate (Assistant Fire Management Officer) working out
of Prescott to the fire.” page 47
“At 1337 on Sunday, June 30, 2013, nearly 34 hours after the fire had started, District Forester Jim
Downey and Type 2 Incident Commander Roy Hall completed a fire complexity analysis. Their analysis using the industry standard “Incident Analysis Type 1 & 2” checklist mistakenly indicated that the existing level of incident command (Type 4) would be sufficient for the fire. However, a hand written note at the bottom of the check[l]ist indicated “Rates Type 2 -Upgrade to Type 1.” page 47
“ADOSH performed the analysis using the same “Incident Analysis Type 1 & 2″ check[l]ist and consideration of known conditions. This analysis indicated that on the evening of June 29, 2013 the Yarnell Hill Fire was transitioning to a Type 1 complexity fire. The correct incident complexity as eventually chosen by Downey and Hall; however, it was more than a day late and resulted in the
exposure of hundreds of firefighters to complex fire hazards that may have otherwise been controlled by an adequately staffed fire response operation.” page 47
“By the time Downey and Hall completed their analysis of fire complexity, the fire was completely out of control, and had burned an estimated 1,000 acres and four structures. By the end of that day, and before the arrival of the Type 1 Incident Management Team on July 1, 2013 at 1800, the fire burned over 8,000 acres, over one hundred structures, exposed dozens of firefighters to smoke inhalation, burns, and death,and resulted in the entrapment death of 19 firefighters.”
page 48
“On the evening of Friday, June 28, 2013, a lightning strike ignited a small fire on the west side of the Weaver Mountains (State Trust Land) north and west of Yarnell, Arizona. Due to the location of the fire the Arizona State Forestry Division (ASFD) took control of the fire. ASFD District Forester Jim Downey was assigned to manage the fire.” page 51
“ASFD fire management (Geyer, Downey, Shumate, Hall, Abel, Musser, and others): …” page 63
Copy. Thank you.
LInk?
I think what you are saying here is moving in the direction of what I am/have been thinking/saying. But I am not positive.
Do you agree with my humble opinion that the decision Saturday night to dispatch Hall’s Type 2 Short Team instead of Bea Day’s Type 2 Full Team was a “mistake”?
Do you think that had to do with “penny-pinching”?
Do you think that Jim Downey played a role in that decision?
Namaste.
PS I still have other questions regarding decisions made Friday night. But my big bugaboo is around the decisions made Saturday night.
OK. As long as I’m sitting here, I will just go ahead and ask this. Because you, RTS, are so much closer to “the scene.”
What happened Saturday really bothers me. I’ve been thinking about this for a long, long time.
Saturday morning was, seriously, something of a fuster-cluck. A slooooooow fuster-cluck. Nobody really got onto that fire until after noon. Because the Type 2 Team, apparently, was not capable of hiking into the fire (really??) and the BLM helicopter (that included a helitack team that didn’t get there until hours later) was also slow to get there.
Prescott National Forest had a helitack/rappel crew. About an hour (driving time) away. Why wasn’t that helitack/rappel crew dispatched to do the Initial Attack? They could have fricken nailed that fire Saturday morning before noon (in my humble opinion). This has always bothered me.
I know I know I know that, I guess, the reason the BLM helitack crew (instead of the Prescott helitack/rappel crew) was dispatched was because a BLM IC was, I think, involved in the ordering of things.
So, maybe my issues with all of this are inconsequential, in the greater organizational scheme of things.
But really?
I don’t expect you to be able to answer my questions about this.
But really?
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 11, 2015 at 10:42 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Prescott National Forest had a helitack/rappel crew.
>> About an hour (driving time) away. Why wasn’t that
>> helitack/rappel crew dispatched to do the Initial Attack?
>> They could have fricken nailed that fire Saturday morning
>> before noon (in my humble opinion). This has always
>> bothered me.
On both Friday, June 28 and Saturday, June 29, ‘Assistant Fire Management Officer ( AFMO ) for the Prescott National Forest ( yes… Jason Clawson ) was literally ‘running around putting out fires’.
Granite Mountain was assigned to the ‘West Spruce Fire’ on the PNF about 11:00 AM Friday afternoon… and they worked well into the night cutting line.
They (supposedly) caught a little sleep in some PNF campground, got up, and Jason Clawson put them to work for a little more on the ‘West Spruce’… then Clawson wanted them to go work the ‘Mount Josh’ fire further south on the PNF, near Skull Valley.
They did that… got finished around 6:30 PM… turned in a timesheet that said they were going to be working that fire until 10:30 PM Saturday night… and they all went back to Prescott to have dinner with their wives/famillies circa 7:00 PM plus.
But it seems obvious now that the ‘Prescott National Forest’ was holding their own ‘resources’ ( Hotshots and Helitack ) ‘close to their chest’ just to handle mopping up the lightning hits that started on June 28 and they were dealing with themselves all during the same time Russ Shumate was down there in Yarnell dealing with THAT lightning strike.
Example: The Prescott National Forest Hotshots were NOT evening showing as ‘available for new assignment’ on Saturday night. AFMO Jason Clawson was still showing them as ‘assigned’ to the ‘West Spruce Fire’ all day Saturday and all night Saturday night.
Even on the morning of Jne 30, 2013, the SWCC ‘ready screen’ that showed up in the SAIT ‘Dispatch Logs’ document showed the ‘Prescott Hotshots’ still assigned to the “West Spruce Fire” that started on June 28.
Jason Clawson hadn’t ‘released them’ for a new assignment yet.
Probably the exact same thing for the ‘Helitack’.
Keep ’em HOME ( on their own forest ) just in CASE another lightning smolder gets active on ‘home turf’.
WTKTT,
That is very typical and legal to keep a Resource ‘committed’ to a fire or a P-number. Partly to ensure the Resource is not ‘available’ to be reassigned to another fire and to ensure it is available to work the P-code fire until released. This is very common with aircraft, especially as fire danger increases. If it is released it is ‘up for grabs’ by anyone that orders it. There are always times to charge to P-numbers for refurbishing of ones equipment and vehicles as well.
Generally, if you are assigned to a P-code, you should be performing duties directly linked or related to that fire, which could also be on ‘stand-by’, ready to go to another fire. And that would mean one had to remain ‘fit for duty.’ A beer or two with a meal would be acceptable. For example, as recounted by Ms. Caldwell, the beer that Robert Caldwell had with dinner while showing time charged to a P-code is acceptable,
Thank you… RTS. Yes… I believe you ‘covered this ground’ already in the last chapter whereby it’s common practice to not ‘release’ resources until you are SURE you don’t need them anymore.
Even if it’s just to ‘keep them in the neighborhood’, so to speak.
Regarding the difference between ‘being released from your current fire assignment’, or NOT…
When Granite Mountain was ‘assigned’ to the Doce Fire… the Granite Mountain crew was being allowed to return to their own Station 7 every day at ‘end of shift’… but they were NOT allowed to ‘go home’… any of them… no matter how close their homes might have been to ‘Station 7’.
They were remaining ‘actively assigned’ to the Doce fire and just using their own Station 7 as a ‘campground’.
Marsh, however, WAS letting the ‘wives’ come and visit with the men in the parking lot each evening just so long as no one left the grounds of Station 7.
In his book… Kyle Dickman tells this story about it.
On page 172 of Dickman’s book, in the ‘Doce’ chapter…
———————————————————-
Another perk of fighting fire in their hometown was that the hotshots, unlike the out-of-town crews, could skip the chaos and discomfort of a crowded fire camp. After the Juniper Tree assignment on the Doce, the hotshots spent five more shifts improving indirect dozer line miles away from the main fire. Running a chainsaw in the heat made for long, hot, and physically taxing days. After their days on the line, the hotshots slept at the station. ( Station 7 in Prescott ).
Steed and Marsh wouldn’t let the hotshots leave since they were technically on assignment… but they let the men’s families visit every evening.
The station had the atmosphere of a carnival.
Leah ( Grant McKee’s girlfriend ) came the first night.
“What do you want be to bring?!” Leah texted Grant.
“Beer!” ( Grant replied ).
But Grant knew Leah couldn’t bring beer, and not just because she wasn’t twenty-one. Decades earlier, hotshots could drink on fire assignments, but that ended in the 1960’s when a hotshot crew got drunk on a fire in Oregon and rioted, throwing chairs and tables out the window of a scenic train they’d taken on the way home from an assignment.
Marsh and Steed wouldn’t let Granite Mountain drink at the station.
So Leah brought Grant his backpack with speakers in it and his preferred vice… candy.
———————————————————-
Compare that with what went down on Saturday, June 29.
The men were DISMISSED from their ‘assignment’ on the ‘Mount Josh’ fire around 6:30 PM.
They were allowed to ‘scatter to the winds’ with the full understanding that the following day was going to be a FULL DAY OFF.
No fire assignment.
No ‘light duty’ at Station 7 like June 27 and 27.
They were FREE to do whatever they wanted to do when they know they don’t even have to wake up the next day and they were all most likely ‘hard at play’ before there was EVER any RECALL sent out.
Thanks to Claire Caldwell’s recent ( public ) comments over on the InvestigativeMEDIA ‘reports released’ article… we know now that even Squad boss Robert Caldwell didn’t get this RECALL notice until 9:20 PM that Saturday night.
He had had dinner… and ONE beer by then… but there’s no telling about all the other Hotshots who had been released at 6:30 PM and had now had 3 hours to be ‘on the town’ or doing whatever else they do when they think the next day is a FULL DAY OFF.
It was a BAD situation that Saturday night.
Marsh and Steed had no idea that at the same moment they were DISMISSING the entire crew at 6:30 PM that evening, with the promise of a FULL DAY OFF… Russ Shumate was only then facing reality down in Yarnell and admitting that he had totally LOST his day-long Initial Attack on the Yarnell fire.
The timing was BAD.
When that call then finally went out for Hotshot crews circa 8:00 PM Saturday night… the fact that the crew had already DISPERSED and were most likely ‘hard at play’ somewhere thinking they didn’t even have to wake up the next day SHOULD have FACTORED IN to Marsh’s decision making.
Marsh REALLY should have made SURE that none of the crew hadn’t already compromised their ‘readiness’ for the next day before ‘accepting’ that assignment.
Or just ‘UTF’ed it altogether because of the ‘bad timing’ and his inability to be SURE he’d have a ‘sober – ready to work’ crew just 9 hours later ( at 5:00 AM rollout time ) following the incoming ‘request’ for them.
He didn’t.
He just ‘assumed’ that wherever they all were, and whatever they were all doing by 9:00 PM… it didn’t matter.
Followup…
Notice above that I am purposely ‘leaving out’ any blurb about Marsh needing to evaluate his OWN ‘readiness’ circa 8:00 PM when those ‘late’ requests were coming in from the desperate Russ Shumate down in Yarnell.
That’s because we still can’t be sure how ‘hard at play’ Marsh himself might have been by then as well as the crew… if you get my drift.
Thanks, both of you, RTS and WTKTT.
Have to admit, I was not thinking about that, and should have been, all things considered.
What I had been thinking about was possibly the Dean Park Fire’s impact on resources. I know that was a problem on Sunday.
Thanks for detailing the P status info.
Woke up to three inches of snow this morning. Beautiful. Yippee!
Marti,
Here’s the link for the ICA document you asked about
https://cryptome.org/2013/12/yarnell-hill-fire-13-1204.pdf
FYI – I am working on some guidelines for my Go Fund Me site, but I wanted to get this out ahead of the power curve. There have been 4 people today contribute $50.00, and the campaign is not really ready yet. I believe the MOST anybody should contribute is $20.00 so…
Once I get it done, I am going to ask everybody to forward the link to people you know and post it other places in case there you know people who want to contribute, but this is the kind of thing that should be made of of thousands of small donations and not hundreds of larger donations, in my opinion.
And yes Marti…I am playing up my law enforcement credentials (hee, hee, hee) to help reassure the general public they can trust me with their hard earned money. And yes…I know the 1980’s called and they want their porn star mustache back.
“I believe the MOST anybody should contribute is $20.00 so…”
Well I can keep that up for …. forevers.
But just in case, I can go much higher. After the Holidaze.
I will let God forgive those who do not SPEAK UP and withhold information that were on the fire but I myself cannot imagine HOW you sleep each night—maybe you can watch Little Boy dvd and at the end of movie imagine yourself in that little boy’s position and imagine that is me— I DO believe one day you will surface and SPEAK UP
Well…I can tell you what was REALLY hard on me and I am quite sure it was just as hard on everyone else, and that was reading those autopsy reports. If anyone needs an excuse to speak up…I know right where they can find 19 of them. So….
Copy that. It’s a tough read, fer sure.
I’ve made it through about half of them ( every word ) and keeping a list of whether there are ANY indications of ANY ‘physical injuries’ other than ones that can be directly attributed to thermal heat or direct flame contact.
In other words… is there ANY evidence ( as has long been suspected there might be ) that one ( or more ) of these men might have suffered some kind of foot, ankle or leg injury during the hike that would have SLOWED down the entire column that day.
So far… nothing… but stay tuned. I’m not done reading yet. Stay tuned.
Followup…
As I read these reports… a part of me is thinking that this should really be ‘required reading’ for ANYONE who thinks the existing WFF safety rules and procedures are ‘Hillbilly’.
I’ll bet they’d be ‘singing a different tune’ by the time they got done reading.
I’ve been meaning to say this, periodically, but haven’t.
Donut’s comment, to me, sounds like the most “hillbilly” thing I can even think of.
The irony of it.
It’s completely “DUH,
I should just not BOTHER to pay attention to the balance in my checking account. Or the oil indicator in my car. Because doing that is just so “hillbilly?”:
I can’t even begin to read the autopsy reports.
Heck I haven’t been able to watch the memorial videos, except for some of the earlier ones that I needed to watch in order to identify what all the GMHSs looked like so I could try to identify them in all the photographs. I can only stand so much gut-wrenching.
So thanks to you who are doing that.
Not going to pull any punches here, Marti.
Yes… there are some ‘passages’ in most of those reports that… well… all I can say is if you are not fully PREPARED to read a document like that… then don’t.
I’m also beginning to think that even you do NOT think the hard-wrought WFF safety rules and regulations and protocols are “Hillbilly”…
…these documents should still be “required reading”.
Remember the movie “mechanized death” that used to be REQUIRED ‘viewing’ in order to get your driver’s license?
Might not be a bad idea to start the same sort of thing for the WFF business… and they can start with these historic autopsy reports being REQUIRED READING.
It might save some ( a lot of? ) lives.
Wow… bad typo above.
I made a statement sound like it was directed at YOU, Marti… and it was NOT. I also left out the word ‘if’ which further botched things up.
I said…
—————————————–
I’m also beginning to think that even you do NOT think the hard-wrought WFF safety rules and regulations and protocols are “Hillbilly”… these documents should still be “required reading”.
—————————————-
What I MEANT to say was…
—————————————–
I’m also beginning to think that even if someone ( any WFF ) does NOT think the hard-wrought WFF safety rules and regulations and protocols are “Hillbilly… these documents should still be “required reading”.
—————————————-
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131116yarnell-fire-evacuations-chaotic-flawed.html
I am going to give you one area that someone said was ALLEGED by hikers because we wrote it on here—think it was Marti—but immediately after the return of the fire I saw a true person yet agitated talking to a news reporter and I listened and they talked on shredded dispatcher documents on YHF so I am giving you the SOURCE to links as well in private can give you his number and you can ask him direct because he was too a Yarnell dispatcher—it was not made up details—
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130705yarnell-fire-time-critical-events.html
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131204report-lauded-by-some-yarnell.html
Cliff’s honesty cost his family’s local business called PATTY AND SONS antiques and more on the aftermath of the fire by all these articles and news coverage on him and we were told his honesty is why many on the fire never spoke up because they gotta eat…and Cliff was looked at different after the fire for opening up.
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1086&articleID=123965
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubsectionID=1&ArticleID=124023
http://www.yarnellfire.com/YVFDBoard/2013/RM-09162013.pdf
http://www.yarnellfire.com/YVFDBoard/2013/SM10813.pdf
https://www.facebook.com/garnet.dupuy
this is Cliff’s wife—
see—
to be a huge part of this town and HAVE HIS VOICE as he did—it was not welcomed so you see how this individual was judged
http://www.yarnellfire.com/YVFDBoard/2013/RM-08192013.pdf
http://www.yarnellfire.com/files/CR_May_2013.pdf
http://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130719yarnell-thirtymile-fire-tragedy.html
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1505300
you see- I always said I like reading numinastics, history and guns/ammo, old west sites—
http://www.delange.org/Yarnell_Forest_Fire/Yarnell_Forest_Fire.htm
Just want to say I have opened all those pages.
But it’s really late and I’m falling asleep.
Will pursue them more tomorrow.
Thank you Joy.
I found this AMAZING, COMPREHENSIVE (Arizona Industrial Commission) ICA Commission/ADOSH report of 175 pages containing a blend of ADOSH citations and supporting documentation, photos and images, select images and photos and more from the YHF SAIR, the Wildland Fire Associates GMHS Entrapment and Burnover Investigation report, and more.
https://cryptome.org/2013/12/yarnell-hill-fire-13-1204.pdf
BE PATIENT, it takes awhile to download 175 pages with lots of images.
Yarnell Victims’ Lawyer Citing 15th Century Law In Renewed Effort To Sue Arizona
By KJZZ News
December 11, 2015
http://kjzz.org/content/236157/yarnell-victims-lawyer-citing-15th-century-law-renewed-effort-sue-arizona
Wow. Is this ever getting convoluted.
From the article…
—————————————-
The original suit was thrown out after a trial judge ruled the state had no duty to protect the owners of adjacent property, since lightning sparked the fire on nearby state trust land.
—————————————-
THE STATE HAD NO DUTY TO PROTECT THE OWNERS
OF ADJACENT PROPERTY.
This is the issue that must be decided, and it is going to affect ALL WILDLAND FIREFIGHTING efforts across the nation.
If the appeal is UPHELD… then almost every single thing that was being done in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 automatically becomes ‘negligence’ as State employees were acting totally OUTSIDE their authority ( and ‘duty’ ).
Baby… meet bathwater. Watch your head as you get ‘tossed out’.
Also from the article…
——————————————
Abney says if given the chance he’ll prove to a jury the state was negligent. The fire destroyed 120 homes and resulted in the deaths of 19 firefighters.
——————————————-
And you can be he WILL, too.
Keyword: ‘chance’.
That’s all these taxpayers want here.
The CHANCE to let a jury of their peers decide this.
Win or lost… It’s something that we ALL deserve.
Does this contain stuff we haven’t seen/had access to before?
It’s a great packaged compendium, though, so thanks.
JD’s Dropbox is kinda sorta a mess. Especially without a sitemap for it.
Yes, lots of good information. Lots to read and research
Gotcha. Thank you.
I am bringing this (truncated and slightly modified) post back up to the top because it got such short shrift and it deals specifically with the ATGS (Air Attack Group Supervisor) /AA duties and responsibilities that we have been discussing.
Robert the Second says December 10, 2015 at 5:13 pm
Lessons Learned?
LCES
C – COMMUNICATIONS – ‘MAINTAIN PROMPT COMMUNICATIONS WITH YOU SUPERVISOR, CREW, AND ADJOINING FORCES.’
It was up to GMHS to notify AA/B33 of their location and intent and could have easily done that BEFORE they were in deep shit.
THEY HAVE THEIR OWN ATGS/AA FIRE ORDERS!
ATGS (AA) Fire Orders
The following ATGS (AA) Fire Orders highlight the most critical responsibilities and concerns of the Air Tactical Group Supervisor. Strictly adhere to these time tested orders. They will guarantee an effective and safe air operation.
A – Assign air resources based on fire size-up, hazard assessment, resource capability and tactical plans.
T – Terminate aviation operations that are unsafe or ineffective.
G – Guarantee flight safety by practicing good radio frequency management and air space management.
S – Strictly adhere to and enforce agency policies, FARs and standard operating procedures.
F – Fight fire aggressively but provide for safe ground and air operations.
I – Inform Operations when tactics are completed, ineffective or unsafe – recommend other options.
R – RECOGNIZE AND ALERT GROUND PERSONNEL OF FIRE CONDITIONS AND AIR OPERATIONS THAT MAY JEOPARDIZE FF SAFETY (“YOU ARE THE EYES IN THE SKY!”)
E – Ensure instructions are clear, accurate and expressed in standard terms.
O – Organize air tactical operations to provide continuous supervised air tactical support.
R – REQUIRE CONTINUOUS COMMUNICATIONS WITH GROUND PERSONNEL AND ASSIGNED AIR RESOURCES.
D – Determine and assign safe flight routes and patterns with adequate vertical and horizontal separation.
E – Establish communications procedures to ensure good coordination, positive aircraft separation and flight safety.
R – Remain in control of all air resources at all times.
S – Stay alert, keep calm, think clearly and act decisively
The ATGS Watch Outs include two that are especially relevant to the YH Fire:
7. POOR OR INTERMITTENT COMMUNICATIONS WITH GROUND RESOURCES and other air resources.
8. GROUND RESOURCES ARE NOT CONTINUOUSLY MONITORING AND COMMUNICATING ON THE TACTICAL AIR-TO-GROUND FREQUENCY.
It’s up to the ground resources, i.e. GMHS to establish communications with the ATGS/AA FIRST using a combination of radio, signal mirror, flagging on a tool, whatever. It is NOT up to THE ATGS/AA to READ THEIR MINDS OR ASSUME SOMEONE IS HERE OR THERE OR WHATEVER.
“R – RECOGNIZE AND ALERT GROUND PERSONNEL OF FIRE CONDITIONS AND AIR OPERATIONS THAT MAY JEOPARDIZE FF SAFETY (“YOU ARE THE EYES IN THE SKY!”)”
As far as EVERYONE knew, the GMHS were “ON THE RIDGE, IN THE BLACK, IN GOOD BLACK”and told to “HUNKER AND BE SAFE” by OPS. GMHS did NOT contact AA/B33 to let them know anything UNTIL they were in deep shit.
“R – REQUIRE CONTINUOUS COMMUNICATIONS WITH GROUND PERSONNEL AND ASSIGNED AIR RESOURCES.”
See above, regarding the other ‘R.’
And the Watch Outs?
“7. POOR OR INTERMITTENT COMMUNICATIONS WITH GROUND RESOURCES and other air resources.”
“8. GROUND RESOURCES ARE NOT CONTINUOUSLY MONITORING AND COMMUNICATING ON THE TACTICAL AIR-TO-GROUND FREQUENCY.”
That is EXACTLY what was occurring!
Thank you for wtiting this.
We see more of the Rules and LCES’s regarding fire fighters on the ground. We almost never see what principle are operating regarding Air Attack.
I’m seeing that the fuster-cluck that happened (via both you and WTKTT) as being kind of 50/50.
Marti,
It’s up tone Ground Resources to initiate radio contact with the aircraft by means of signal mirror, flagging on a toil , and radio communication.
The aircraft personnel don’t know where you are bless you comma ate with them.
GMHS was acting in a typical disingenuous, coy, sneaky manner UNTIL they were in deep shit
It was 50/50, Marti.
Granite Mountain was completely ‘untrained’ on how to property execute an emergency radio call… and Johh Burfiend seemed completely untrained and unprepared to handle one coming AT him…
…because there was no ‘agreed-upon’ EMERGENCY PROTOCOL to follow.
From Granite Mountain’s end… it was all just “keep asking some guy in an airplane for permission to speak ( for almost 3 fucking minutes ) before actually TELLING HIM how dire your situation is”.
From Burfiend’s perspective… it was just assuming that some dipshit yelling at you over the radio is just another panicked GRUNT who wants some retardant ( because… you know… don’t they ALL want that! ).
There could not possibly be a more clear LESSON TO LEARN hear for the entire WFF industry.
They need to get their heads out of their asses and IMPLEMENT a common EMERGENCY radio protocol… and make sure everyone is USING it ( or at least READY to use it… at any moment ).
There is even evidence that this current situation of the WFF industry having its head so far up its ass about this that the whole world looks BROWN to them came into play in Twisp.
Similar situation. Lots of YELLING on the radio with people ACTUALLY in trouble and nobody could figure out what the fuck was really happening until a lot of TIME had been wasted… and might have COST LIVES.
Still waiting for the OSHA report on Twisp.
That CRAP ‘Initial Report’ is worthless.
Marti and WTKTT,
The GMHS was definitely NOT even performing basic Ground to Air procedure (learned at the badic training levels but certsinly at the Crew Boss level) by initiating the communication with the ATGS/AA/B33 to notify them WHERE they were and WHAT their intentions were. The aircraft does NOT know you are there until and unless you communicate that by a combination of signal mirror or waving a tool with bright flagging and radio communication, e.g. ‘We’re out your right door at 3 o’clock low or whatever.
Typical GMHS being disengenuous, coy, and sneaky.
RTS… I posted a ‘Reply’ to this up above as a new parent comment…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-319234
I have decided to take the plunge and start a Go Fund Me campaign to pay for Sources of Information (SOI) for unknown details pertaining to the Yarnell Hill Fire. You can check on the progress of this experiment in social media by going to;
https://www.gofundme.com/ayeeqb9w
All funds that are collected and that are not paid out after two years to sources of information will be donated to Investigative Media to support further investigations into the Yarnell Hill Fire and related investigations.
Oh Man…this if the most fun I’ve had since…since…since…I can’t remember when. We have already received THREE (3) donations! May God Bless America and all of those who can afford to donate and all of those who can’t!
I just cut out my massage for the week so I was able to help-
I will continue help when able-
You have already given more than your share Joy.
Excellent idea Gary. Those donations couldn’t go for a better purpose and with your long time experience and expertise in investigations of this sort we know the monies will be well spent. JD is well deserving in receiving funds not used. Thank you again for your help at uncovering the truth. The real facts must be known to the loved ones for proper closure but also the public as well. We need to know how a thousand dollar fire ballooned into a multi million dollar fiasco, why basic rules of safety were disregarded, who and why someone was so adamant that those men should go down into that death trap when Marsh or Steed clearly said in their so called last communication that we are in the Black send Blue Ridge or someone else, why people have been threatened concerning their jobs and retirements with even letters to the effect, why Joy who made over 1500 photos that day documenting conditions and positions of vehicles and her ongoing interest to get things corrected cost her a trip to court and a restraining order and even a warning from the state to not hike the area even the legal way, why legitimate complaints about document shredding at the Yarnell Fire Dispach system were not investigated, why photos purported to be in existence of two yellow and white quads at the fire edge on Friday when the fire started were never investigated when names of persons owning the photos are known, why known documents were deleted from on line were seen by both Joy and I that clearly showed the restricted area of 320 acres were actually restricted on June 16, 2013 two weeks before the actual fire that lasted from Friday to Sunday June 30, 2013,
why we saw actual torching going on of a video on U-tube for an obvious back burn just above the Shrine also removed from U tube archives (can that be retrieved), why the Yarnell Fire Department have the option to quench the fire immediately yet took no action, why awards were given to people after the Yarnell disaster that killed 19 of America.s finest while many of those leaders if not all should have shunned awards and been hanging their heads in disgust and sorrow as to how things were handled during the fire.
Fortunately Joy has interrupted my train of thought or I could list at least as many more unanswered questions that lead us to believe that the investigation by the State has been a white wash and attempt to cover ugly doings.
Obviously the millions wasted on this fire did little good in saving the lives of 19 men or saving have the homes in Yarnell area. Those funds would have been better spent on better equipment and training both of which the GMHS group was in dire need of. Now that they have deceased in their war against the elements, common sense would tell us those men would want as their memorial to have the truth be known to the public of the real reason for their deaths and all factors and persons that contributed to it.
Gary is well respected in the fire fighting he has done and the years of professional investigations he has been involved in. You can bet the donations for this good and proper cause will be used wisely. Thank you again Gary Olsen.
Sonny, I should be there by noon-12:30—almost done, I had an alarm concern on one of my properties and fixing some camera concerns and as well my life alert necklace updated/low battery and stuff so almost done…I have a black box to anyone that thinks they want to fool me on cameras—got you anyways—duh…
I stated this as MY history on topic of cell records and I am not talking ABOUT or DIRECT to EN. I will ignore any further incoming on topic-
see:
“Cell phone records was what I asked for from Elizabeth Nowicki when she first introduced herself to the hikers but never did see any results there. That was back of Fall 2013.”
shoosh away to the person feeding bullshit that I deliberately posted and that I am doing it in a way that makes it sound like EN withheld cell phone records— She asked the hikers how she could help us and that has been my main beef from day one and the fact is NOTHING has come to light there until YCSO Sheriff Mascher’s assistant Cathy David attached the proper forms for me to gain such knowledge on topic and that was at 8:07am today
this post IS NOT FROM ME but Sonny- he is at place using laptop I used earlier so he probably did not update name in name box—
Joy A Collura says
December 11, 2015 at 10:20 am
but this is from me:
Joy A Collura says
December 11, 2015 at 9:26 am
I just cut out my massage for the week so I was able to help-
I will continue help when able-
You have already given more than your share Joy!
OK so I donated. A pittance, for sure, cuz………Christmas. But more will be coming after the New Year.
You rock, Gary! Your selfie is awesome!
But no button to push for Twitter — I’ve pretty much given up on Facebook. But I’ll tweet it anyway!
We. Will. Succeed. At. Climbing. This. Mountain.
Namaste.
OK. I finally found the Twitter button.
Peace?
Always.
I couldn’t figure out those buttons either but I don’t have those accounts so I had better get them.
Buttons can be …… challenging.
So Chris MacKenzie had a Canon camera in his pocket upon time of autopsy. Does that mean he had two cameras on 6/30? Because Marti has already identified his other camera at the DZ, right? Meaning, 2 cameras plus a cellphone
Calvin,
Correct, MacKenzie had a cell phone and Cannon Camera in personal effects that also don’t show up as evidence.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on December 10, 2015 at 5:20 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> And we must recall that Gary Cordes KNEW the GMHS was heading for
>> the BSR. He told TFLD(T_ Tyson Esquibel to take two engines and meet
>> GMHS coming down (paraphrasing)
Yes. VERY important point. Always has been.
And when Captain Reyes informed Cordes that there had been a deployment ( Cordes says he did not hear the deployment radio traffic ), his immediate reaction was “BULLSHIT! They are IN their safety zone ( the BSR ) and they had plenty of time to get there”.
Captain Reyes then had to tell Cordes. “No. They never made it. They got cut off”.
So that would most likely mean that not only did Gary Cordes KNOW they were all headed to the BSR, he also thought they had ALREADY arrived there when he was giving those instructions to Tyson Equibel to “send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch” to make sure they “get out safely”.
And those ‘instructions’ to Esquibel came BEFORE the MAYDAY calls.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And yet we never him him on the radio directing anyone to their KNOWN location
And now that we know which vehicle Gary Cordes was actually driving ( The red/white Central Yavapai extended pickup with the camper top and the ‘light bar’ on top )… there is also no doubt that Gary Cordes was THERE in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant while the photos also show those ‘group huddles’ and everyone trying to organize the medical teams and determine the absolute MOST important thing to know in those minutes following the deployment.
WHERE WERE THEY.
Yet ( apparently ), even though Gary Cordes was right there where those men were desperately trying to ‘figure that out’… he said NOTHING.
Think about that for a moment.
At that moment in time… the only thing anyone knew for sure is that Granite Mountain HAD ‘deployed’ out there somewhere… but they were now simply NOT hearing from them.
For all anyone knew in those desperate moments to try and ascertain where to even start looking for them… SOME or ALL of them might have still been very much ALIVE… but so badly injured they were unable to use their radios… or that their radios were all simply ‘unusable’ at that point.
So for ANYONE to have been withholding ANY relevant information about exactly WHERE they might have been meant they were (perhaps) more concerned about “covering their ass” than whether some of those men might live or die depending on how FAST they could be located.
And I am including Tyson Esquibel in that list of people who seemed to have known that Granite Mountain was SUPPOSED to be at ( or near ) the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Just minutes before the MAYDAY call… Tyson Esquibel was the one who Cordes TOLD to ‘send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch’ and to also ‘make sure Granite Mountain ‘gets out of there safely’.
But Esquibel also knew he did NOT do that.
So for him to not say to someone in those ‘group huddles’. something like… “Hey… I don’t know if this matters but just before the MAYDAY calls Cordes told me to send engines to that Boulder Springs Ranch thing and he also mentioned something about getting Granite Mountain out of there”… is… well… I don’t know. Can you find the ‘right word’ for it? I can’t.
SIDENOTE: Now that we can actually ( finally ) see the autopsy reports and see that the Medical Examiners never even lifted one finger to actually determine a “Time of Death” for ANY of those men… the fact that SOME of them might not have actually expired immediately ‘out there’ remains a real possibility.
In other words… all that time that was wasted just trying to even figure out where they WERE ( even though people in that same parking lot were sure where they were headed ) and whether that meant the difference between ‘life or death’ for some of them might not be a ‘hypothetical’ scenario at all anymore.
The Medical Examiners did NOT try to determine any actual “Time of Death” for any of them.
They would simply end up taking someone else’s WORD for a good ‘guesstimate’ and then allowing that ‘guesstimate’ to appear on all the official death certificates.
Unbelievable.
Tying back to a previous trail of thought around Marsh’s location prior to the deployment…
What IF Cordes had heard from Marsh (maybe via cell phone) that he (Marsh) was at or near the BSR (before making the mad dash back to the GMHS when it all went to hell)? And thus resulting in Cordes mistakenly thinking ALL the GMHS were at the BSR and results in him saying “BULLSHIT! They are IN their safety zone” ( the BSR ) “and they had plenty of time to get there”
…and any such calls/texts would be in the phone records, which were investigated right? Oh no, they weren’t my mistake – Doh!
Otis compliments on the fire accounts we heard at 2015 wildfire convention… The man from Flagstaff would you please speak up…this is your time to reply to Otis here. Thank you ahead of time for what you are about to do and speak up. The lackadaisical manners of people who were on the fire or people who DO have more details I will say this with my new growth on my head that if I don’t make it for a long life..all you have to know what I know won’t die with me..the information will come out… I am scared this week because I remember September 2008 when Frankie Serros had me feel a lump two inches about his right ear…he was my hiking pal I watched along with Indian Joe/Gerald Sutich/his wife Gladys and daughter Cheryl and Mandy as well… We all watched his horrific battle with brain cancer and I already have two..so today when the labs come back from yesterday I will immediately assess the concern because I love life and want more of it…but yes I am a bit worried I may face same battle and Sonny thinks its the caves Frankie Snakeman and Bryant went in that were high in arsenic cyanide mercury that gave me this journey but my family has family history plus we lived in Toms River NJ during the chemicals dumped in water time but if my time is up the kids of the gmhs will know I tried to change the way they fight these fires… Cell phone records was what I asked for from Elizabeth Nowicki when she first introduced herself to the hikers but never did see any results there. That was back of Fall 2013.
Otis… you might be absolutely correct.
Ayep.
It’s definitely not impossible.
Good catch, Otis!!
WTKTT Back when you were forcing me (ha ha not really, but just kidding — you were just prying my cold dead hands off of my long-established theories) to have to completely change my thinking (and my keywording and my timelining etc etc etc) on “the trucks,” I said that I thought that that large man hanging out with Cougan Carothers in the parking lot was Gary Cordes. I think I asked you if you thought that might be the case, also, but I don’t think you ever responded.
This new line of conversation is quite disturbing, for sure. It’s also kind of interesting that we didn’t “get here” until now (as far as I can remember). It really doesn’t “make sense” at all, so I guess that’s why we never “got here” before. At least I didn’t. Probably because it wouldn’t have “made sense.”
So thank you, RTS, for popping this slide back onto the light-table.
So how about this:
It really really doesn’t make any sense, but it is currently appearing to be true (or at least probable,given the evidence — I keep referring to WTKTT’s framework of analysis). Apparently, Gary, who “knew” where the crew was headed, and assumed they were either there or close, didn’t help direct the rescuers (including the helicopter) to where he “knew” they were or were close to.
We had various conversations around how, apparently, Donut didn’t either.
Then there were conversations about how, when the UTV-brigade headed out, they first went up Sesame, and did that mean they “knew” or even “thought” GM was “near Boulder Springs Ranch”. But, then, if they had, why did they abandon that route and go out (with a high time-cost) to Shrine Road, etc etc etc.
The biggest take-away was that nobody knew.
We never quite got to………….Except Gary Cordes?
It still doesn’t make sense. But it’s sitting right here on the light-table in front of us.
Namaste.
What was going on at 4:17-ish PM when the video was captured of the seriously UBIQUITOUS blue truck (that I mistakenly attributed to Rance Marquez for a BUNCH of reasons but I NOW have no clue who was driving it), Cougan Carothers, probably Safety Officer Tony Sciacca, and GARY CORDES sitting in his truck, all of them watching (ahem) the fire?
(And this is when I, originally, though Gary Cordes was all busily engaged in that neighborhood just northeast of Shrine Road, so was not paying attention to what Granite Mountain was doing — ahem).
What was happening was he Air-To-Ground radio conversation starting with confusion about what Air-Attack was seeing regarding to GM movements on the ground that led to the “waz yo status” question.
A conversation that we would most likely know WAY more about if the Air2Ground radio recordings (that I, earlier bet my annual income EXIST SOMEWHERE, all things considered) were available to the public, who paid for them.
Just to add a little context.
How could you do a no blame cover up job if you included the air traffic study along with Marsh’s phone traffic with his superiors. Not possible I should think. Thanks Marti for pointing the facts out ==only people needing to cover would use these tactics of evidence omission. Sadly they are obviously helped by people that did not need the cover, yet apparently either had a hammer over their head or were cronied up to the point they would do such thing. This has done no good for the wild land fire fighting community and has failed the trust of the public that pays their check but even more is giving fake closure to the loved ones, and even more so to the safety of future firefighter. No wonder that so many consider this JD site anti- their interpretation. It is revealing too much and some on here are not afraid to call a spade a spade. They are not afraid to bear the truth.
Just the idea that they should have had a mayday sig nal pre arranged is a simple idea that can save lives. If nothing else comes of this, that fellow that accented that fact is a person worth honorable mention.
Joy mentions that the local cell towers would have records of sorts about communications that day and perhaps pinpoint the time of death to the second.
You would believe with all the evidence of omission and wrongful acts exposed by this site we would have had a federal investigation going on by now. How can the state investigate itself and protect its comrads ==simply investigate itself is the answer. They have managed to make a silk purse out of the pigs ear and to top it off the general public and many of the loved ones have endorsed the narrative like so many flies on dung.
Thanks for the continuing fresh air–nothing more enjoyable than to see so many wolves clothed in sheep hides now exposed.
I agree that Burfiend in B33 was ignoring the emergency air traffic. The question is why?
Reply to calvin post on December 10, 2015 at 7:54 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> I agree that Burfiend in B33 was ignoring the emergency air traffic.
>> The question is why?
Well… the OFFICIAL explanation that Jim Downey and Mike Dudley ( and whoever else was cooking up that SAIR narrative ) tried to give was that Burfiend didn’t know it was ‘Granite Mountain’ trying to call him and he thought it was just some panicky ground crew wanting to ask for a retardant drop.
From the SAIR…
>> static-filled transmission comes over the air-to-ground frequency at 1639:
>> “Breaking in on Arizona 16, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of
>> the flaming front.”
Bullshit. It wasn’t a ‘static filled transmission’. It was clear as a bell. We can hear that for ourselves. Jesse was YELLING because there were already at least two chainsaws running full blast right there near him and he was YELLING as much to hear himself as to make sure he could be heard over the radio.
>> Following this is a very broken, with wind in the microphone, transmission:
>> “Air-to-ground 16, Granite Mountain, Air Attack, how do you read?”
Bullshit. Listen to the recordings. It was not BROKEN.
Notice also that the SAIT is now admitting that ‘Granite Mountain’ was definitely PART of BOTH of these two initial transmissions… but in a moment they are going to ask us to believe that John Burfiend simply had no idea it was ‘Granite Mountain’ calling him.
>> Due to poor reception, ASM2 can only understand fragments of these
>> communications.
Bullshit. John Burfiend says TWICE in the actual recordings that he was “copying that traffic”.
>> The fire’s rapid advance toward Yarnell is generating a lot of radio traffic
>> about structure protection
Also mostly Bullshit. We can HEAR Aaron Hulburd’s radio monitoring the TAC and the A2G channels during this timeframe and there is NOT the kind of ‘crazy radio traffic’ going on at that time the SAIR is trying have us believe.
>> so ASM2 assumes the broken and unclear transmission
More bullshit. The transmissions were NOT ‘broken and unclear’… and Burfiend himself says TWICE in the radio captures themselves that he was “copying that traffic”.
>> is one of the structure protection units calling to request a retardant drop.
>> He does not suspect it’s Granite Mountain since they were safe when he
>> talked to them earlier.
The best piece of Bullshit.
“I didn’t answer because I didn’t even ‘suspect’ it could have possibly been the Granite Mountain Hotshots trying to call me”.
So obviously the REASON Karels and Dudley ( and whoever else cooked up that text for the report ) were trying to ‘sell’ for why Burfiend wasn’t responding was bullshit.
As for the REAL reason.
Only John Burfiend could say.
ADOSH was NEVER allowed to interview anyone flying in B33 that day.
Not Thomas French.
Not John Burfiend
And not Clint Cross, the ATGS(t) Trainee who was the THIRD person in that plane that afternoon and hearing EVERYTHING as well.
Whoops. BIG typo up above.
I typed “Jim Downey” when I meant to type “Jim Karels”.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
Well… the OFFICIAL explanation that Jim Karels and Mike Dudley ( and whoever else was cooking up that SAIR narrative ) tried to give was that Burfiend didn’t know it was ‘Granite Mountain’ trying to call him and he thought it was just some panicky ground crew wanting to ask for a retardant drop.
WTKTT,
Jim Downey was a major player in the initial stages of the YH Fire, following his typical pattern of always pinching pennies on Resources, including Crews and aircraft to save money.
Yes… I know. The reason his name slipped in up there instead of ‘Jim Karels’ is because his name was still ‘on the tip of my brain’, as they say.
I had just finished trying to ascertain his whereabouts on July 2, during the autopsies and evidence collection, and whether he was there along with Deputy State Forester Jerry Payne.
“Jim Downey was a major player in the initial stages of the YH Fire, following his typical pattern of always pinching pennies on Resources, including Crews and aircraft to save money.”
Question regarding Jim Downey.
I’m not looking at my files, so writing out of my memory-banks.
The hiring of a Type 2 Short Team, when there was a Type 2 Long Team ready and available, to take over the fire on Sunday has long been a bone of contention to me. Especially since Roy Hall spent most of Sunday filling in the holes in his team with members of the aforementioned team, instead of paying attention to the fire that he was hired to fight.
Shumate ordered a Type 2 Team late Saturday night. There was much confusion. Bea Day’s Team thought, or heard, or whatever, that they had been ordered/dispatched, apparently. Roy’s Team was actually dispatched. Shumate went Whatevers!
And then Roy and his Team were about five light-years behind the curve all day Sunday. While Bea Day’s Team was moving in and doing WHATEVERS on the fire.
This whole mess has bugged me all along. I’ve really wanted to know exactly WHO was involved in this decision and exactly WHY they decided what they decided.
Since I don’t have my files at hand, can you tell me where was Downey “located” in all of this, and do you think he might have been involved in this what-I-consider “penny-pinching” screw-up?
Just asking for a friend.
I have some other questions I could ask regarding what you wrote, but this is the big burning one, for me.
PS. I’m really glad we got over our dust-up. Your voice of on-the-ground and still-active experience is truly valuable to me (and, I think, us), and I’m REALLY thankful for your participation here at this time.
Marti,
Thanks Marti.
I found this in the ICA AZ Industrial Commission report link above:
Robert the Second saysDecember 11, 2015 at 2:32 pm
https://cryptome.org/2013/12/yarnell-hill-fire-13-1204.pdf
It’s big, 175 pages, so be patient.
“ASFD District Forester Jim Downey was assigned as the person in
charge of the entire fire suppression effort.”
So, given that, he could have been ANYWHERE, however, I recall reading somewhere he was actually in Yarnell. I’ll keep looking.
**
** ERIC MARSH’S CELL PHONE *WAS* DEFINITELY IN HIS ‘SHIRT POCKET’,
** BUT THEN ‘GOES MISSING’ EVEN IN HIS OWN AUTOPSY ‘EVIDENCE’ REPORT.
Now that we can see the actual documents ( thanks to InvestigativeMEDIA )… RTS
was absolutely correct about the Medical Examiner actually reporting that Eric
Marsh’s CELLPHONE was right there in his shirt pocket when they received the
body in a sealed YCSO transport pouch.
It was right there in the same shirt pocket as his compass and his signal mirror.
But now that we can see the ACTUAL document and written record of this… something
WEIRD happens in the exact same document.
Just a few paragraphs below the one where the Medical Examiner reports the
CELLPHONE as definitely being there along with his compass and signal mirror,
it suddenly ‘disappears’ a few paragraphs later in the same document.
In the ‘EVIDENCE’ section of the SAME DOCUMENT… suddenly only the ‘compass’
and the ‘signal mirror’ are being listed as ‘collected as evidence’.
Eric Marsh’s autopsy report is now online at this link…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/w9n6xov9yic9e9k/AADU4g1JbiKkIco0IXFb433Ia/Eric%20Marsh.pdf?dl=0
From the document…
——————————————————————————
Subject: Eric Marsh
EXTERNAL EXAMINATION
The body is received in a zippered body pouch secured by evidence seal # 026414
COTHING AND PERSONAL EFFECTS
The body is clad in the items of clothing as detailed in the property invetory list.
1. Remnants of upper part of green pants ( size 30-34 regular ).
2. Belt with metal buckle with engraving “Granite Mountain” on the top
and “Hotshot Crew” on the bottom.
3. Partially preserved front portion of the yellow coat; back portion is
completely burnt out.
4. Pair of boots ( size 8-1/2 E ).
5. Preserved remnant of the black tee shirt with logo “Granite Mountain
Interagency Hotshot Crew”.
6. Left glove, mostly preserved.
7. Two pair of socks.
8. Gray underwear ( size 36-38, Hanes ).
9. White metal ring on the left fourth finger with mountain design on
outside and engraved letters “MSK” on the inside.
10. CELL PHONE, mirror and compass in the shirt pocket.
Then… a few pages down in the same report… we see this…
EVIDENCE
The following items of evidence are collected:
1. All items of personal protective equipment.
2. Signal mirror.
3. Compass.
—————————————————————————————–
In that ‘EVIDENCE’ section… there is suddenly now NO MENTION of the CELL PHONE that was just mentioned as item 10 in the preceding ‘Clothing and Personal Effects’ section.
The CELL PHONE is suddenly NOT being listed as one of the items ‘collected as evidence’.
What happened to the CELL PHONE in-between those two ‘sections’ being typed up?
The YCSO evidence seal on the zippered bag for Marsh was: # 026414.
Does YCSO NOT have any record of this CELL PHONE being recovered from the same shirt pocket that held the compass and the signal mirror?
If not… WHY not?
If Eric Marsh’s CELL PHONE was right there in his shirt pocket when the body was received at the Maricopa County Medical Examiner’s office… then how is it that it never officially entered the YCSO Police ‘chain of evidence’ and how is it that Amanda Marsh would one day report in a public interview that she eventually DID receive Eric’s CELL PHONE back?
WHO gave it to her?… and how did THAT person come into possession of it?
WTKTT,
Good job, just knew you wee going to get to do this yourself.
Did you notice that there were always TWO “Persons Present at Examination” for each autopsy?
These observers were ALWAYS Jerry Payne from AZ Forestry and one YCSO officer, ALWAYS.
YCSO had jurisdiction and control over all of the ‘evidence’ from the YHF GMHS fatality site, correct?
if I am correct. SOMEONE (of authority?) saw and/or gave permission/allowed SOMEONE (of authority?) to take Marsh’s cell phone ‘out-of-evidence’ for some purpose and then somehow, carefully and very discreetly return said cell phone back in-to-evidence without any attention being brought to it, UNTIL NOW.
Right?
TYPO
It should read “just knew you WERE going to get to do this yourself”
Weird. Totally. Why your comments are ending up way down here doesn’t make any sense to me.
Usually this doesn’t happen until the chapter is at about 1000 comments.
I have no idea who/what these comments are responding to.
And I wrote this comment in response to your “Well I got half of my assumptions correct” comment.
What is going on? Is it my browser? I have no clue. And there isn’t even a full moon tonight.
It’s definitely not my browser.
Reply to Robert the Second post on December 10, 2015 at 8:31 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Did you notice that there were always TWO “Persons Present
>> at Examination” for each autopsy?
Yes.
>> These observers were ALWAYS Jerry Payne from AZ Forestry
>> and one YCSO officer, ALWAYS.
The YCSO reports make it clear that the detectives also made it clear from the moment they stepped onto that ‘accident scene’ that any/all ‘electronic devices’ were of the highest priority.
And any YCSO police officer would have known that, anyway.
So that leaves ‘Payne’ as ( perhaps ) saying… “Ooooo… I’ll take that!”
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> YCSO had jurisdiction and control over all of the ‘evidence’
>> from the YHF GMHS fatality site, correct?
Yep. And just in case any moron didn’t already know that… it even
says so right in the autopsy report(s).
Jurisdictional Agency: YAVAPAI SO ( Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office )
By: svp. Tox. 1/2000, DAWN
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> if I am correct. SOMEONE (of authority?) saw and/or gave
>> permission/allowed SOMEONE (of authority?) to take Marsh’s
>> cell phone ‘out-of-evidence’ for some purpose
Yes.
>> and then somehow, carefully and very discreetly return
>> said cell phone back in-to-evidence
NO.
That’s the conundrum. There is NO EVIDENCE that ANY cell phone that was being identified as having belonged to Eric Marsh was EVER part of the ‘evidence record’, at any time, and was NEVER one of the cellphones that was submitted to the Arizona Department of Homeland Security Field Office for data retrieval.
Once it ‘went missing’… it STAYED ‘missing’… until some moment when someone put it into Amanda Marsh’s hand.
Also… don’t forget that “Missus Leviticus” ( Deborah Pfingston ) has also commented on this very forum that “Everyone who knew Eric knew that he always carried TWO cellphones with him”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> without any attention being brought to it, UNTIL NOW.
>> Right?
Wrong. Since day one… we have been ‘tracking’ Eric Marsh’s cellphone(s) and trying to discover WHY they were never showing up in the evidence record.
It has ALWAYS been obvious that something ‘funky’ was going on there.
What we know ‘NOW’… is that it’s even worse than we thought.
That there is this evidence about EXACTLY where at least one of his possible two cellphones was… and no one at the YCSO Sheriff’s Office even noticed these little ‘blurbs’ in the very reports they were being given copies of.
Next big step in this puzzle…
WHO, exactly, put that cellphone back into Amanda Marsh’s hand?
Then we know WHO to direct the NEXT question to…
How did YOU get it?
Bringing this forward from the end of the previous chapter, since it’s even more relevant now that it was before…
Once again… two VII ( Very Important Items ) from Eric Marsh’s
autopsy report…
———————————————————————–
CLOTHING AND PERSONAL EFFECTS
5. Preserved remnant of the black tee shirt with logo “Granite Mountain
Interagency Hotshot Crew”.
10. CELL PHONE, mirror and compass in the shirt pocket.
——————————————————————–
Amanda Marsh herself has posted PUBLIC photos of ‘Item number 5’.
Here is a link to that PUBLIC photo Amanda ( Beno ) Marsh posted back in September of the charred remains of Eric’s T-Shirt…
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/photos/a.718463201580199.1073741828.706170532809466/907651632661354/?type=3&theater
She posted this one to her PUBLIC ‘Eric Marsh Wildfighter Foundation’ Facebook page and the following is her own comment that accompanies the photo…
————————————————————————–
September 23, 2015
I received all the stuff that Eric had on him when he perished. I found his boots and his socks and what was left of his belt. Most importantly I found what remains of his t-shirt. Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew is all that’s left of his crew shirt. So amazing. It makes me realize how strong the crew was and is and how it will never really die. I am so grateful to have this. It has brought so much happiness to me.
————————————————————————–
This photo of that only remaining piece of Marsh’s T-shirt with the burned edges DOES include most of the ‘pocket’ of the T-Shirt as well as the GM logo above it.
So, theoretically, this picture proves that if his cell phone really was in either this pocket, or his Nomex shirt pocket, it might have survived intact.
What is still NOT CLEAR in the ACTUAL ‘reports’… is which ‘shirt pocket’ they were talking about that contained ALL of the following…
1. Eric Marsh’s CELLPHONE
2. His compass.
3. His ‘signal mirror’.
I’m going to say now that they are most likely talking about the front shirt pocket of his Nomex shirt… and NOT the pocket of his black T-shirt ( seen in the PUBLIC photo that Amanda Marsh posted ).
But since the PUBLIC photo that Amanda Marsh posted shows that that area of Marsh’s chest ( his left side ) was somehow ‘isolated’ from the worst of the flames and the pocket of the under-shirt was able to survive… then it’s not a far stretch to believe that the SAME left-side shirt pocket of the outer Nomex shirt, containing the CELLPHONE, the Compass and the ‘signal mirror’ would have been a spot that was also NOT receiving much flame exposure… and anything in THAT pocket had a good chance of surviving intact.
In other words… if the compass wasn’t totally melted… then the cellphone probably still worked.
WTKTT,
I think it’s safe to say that “. 1. Eric Marsh’s CELL
PHONE
2. His compass.
3. His ‘signal mirror’.”
were found in tact in his Nome Fire Shirt.
No WFF that I know would carry especially his cell phone in his Tshirts under his fire, shirt due to sweat
It would ruin the phone.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 10, 2015 at 10:19 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> No WFF that I know would carry especially his
>> cell phone in his Tshirts under his fire, shirt due to sweat
>> It would ruin the phone.
Good point.
Also… just discovered that it is NOT a fact that there were always two other people present for all the autopsies.
There was actually ( according to the autopsy report ) NO ONE listed as being ‘present’ ( other than the Medical Examiners ) during Eric Marsh’s autopsy.
More about this later… but here’s a quick TABLE that just shows the TIMES of all the autopsies in sequential order, and whether or not the official autopsy for each individual lists any other ‘persons’ as being PRESENT for that autopsy.
Notice also from the TIMES that it looks like they had at least 3 autopsies going at once all day long in order to get all 19 done by the end of the day.
When ‘other people’ WERE being listed as ‘present’… it was always the following two individuals…
Arizona forestry Division: Deputy State Forester Jerry Payne
Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office: Lieutenant Tom Boelts
Also NOTE that Lt. Boelts wasn’t just ‘some YCSO officer’. He was ( and would remain ) one of the LEAD DETECTIVES for YCSO on this and the one who was actually responsible for interfacing with the Arizona Department of Homeland Security and getting ALL of the cellphones that actually DID enter the ‘evidence chain’ ( but not Marsh’s ) evaluated.
Times of Autopsies ( all performed July 2, 2013 )…
———————————————————
BP = Boelts and Payne both present
XX = No persons listed as being present
———————————————————-
0800 – BP – Scott Norris:
0805 – XX – Travis Carter:
0810 – BP – Sean Misner:
0813 – XX – Grant Quinn McKee:
0824 – BP – John Percin:
0935 – BP – William Warneke:
0946 – XX – Anthony Rose:
1007 – BP – Christopher MacKenzie:
1027 – XX – Andrew Ashcraft:
1058 – BP – Dustin Deford:
1100 – BP – Wade Parker:
1112 – XX – Robert Caldwell:
1136 – BP – Clayton Whitted:
1310 – BP – Joe Thurston:
1314 – XX – Eric Marsh: ———- No one present for Marsh’s!
1345 – XX – Travis Turbyfill:
1354 – BP – Kevin Woyjeck:
1355 – XX – Garret Zuppiger:
1429 – XX – Jesse Steed:
———————————
WTKTT,
Excellent Sherlock Holmesian deductions.
Well I got half of my assumptions correct
As I go thru the Toxicology reports three things are standing out.
1. Most all are in early to Moderate decomposition stages. That is not sufficient with the amount of and degree of Burning sustained to create much if any BAC.
2. The Hart and arteries are showing very little if any collapse or shrinking to indicate any Decomposition including the stomach and intestines showing beginning signs of gastric fluids.
3. I am confounded by the lack of any information from the Samples of the Liver, Kidneys and Other Samples. If They were taken statements should have been listed on contents Alcohol and other possible information either 0 to what ever. Nothing is listed. That’s not common if the testing was done the results should be part of the report.
What, exact information are you looking for, from the liver, kidneys, etc?
Calvin— Note what WTKTT said below pretty much covers it.
Some would be the follow up on the BAC info to determine where the Alcohol
is from ingestion or Decomposition. A legal question that is answered by other
tests. As far as I can see not done. The lack of hart and valve change to me indicates very early start of decomposition which means a inability for the alcohol to be caused or influenced by decomposition.
That should be stated in the report in some form thru further tests.
Where the hell is that information?????
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 10, 2015 at 7:01 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> As I go thru the Toxicology reports three things are standing out.
>>
>> 1. Most all are in early to Moderate decomposition stages.
>> That is not sufficient with the amount of and degree of Burning
>> sustained to create much if any BAC.
From what I have been able to read online myself about ‘toxicology’, I would tend to agree.
I’ve actually found some ‘tests’ that were done to specifically study the RATE as which post-mortem ethyl alcohol can be produced… and one study shows that it took at least FIVE DAYS of ‘Moderate’ decomposition to even hit the 0.08 g% ( legally drunk ) BAC level.
Two of the GM Hotshots were even above that, at 0.09 g%, after only a maximum of 20 hours from “Time of Death” to “Cadaver Stabilzation” ( Refrigeration ).
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> 2. The Hart and arteries are showing very little if any collapse or
>> shrinking to indicate any Decomposition including the stomach and
>> intestines showing beginning signs of gastric fluids.
Agree. Noticed that as well.
I’m also not seeing ANY detailed testing done to *actually* determine the *actual* amount of ‘decomposition’ being observed at the very start of the examinations.
From everything I’ve read… that is SUPPOSED to be done so that it can, in fact, be used as a ‘base context’ with which to evaluate the toxicology reports when they are finished… ESPECIALLY in the case of an ‘industrial accident’ of this kind and the possibility of legal action in the wake of the incident.
Unbelievable.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> 3. I am confounded by the lack of any information from the Samples of the
>> Liver, Kidneys and Other Samples. If They were taken statements should
>> have been listed on contents Alcohol and other possible information either
>> 0 to what ever. Nothing is listed. That’s not common if the testing was done
>> the results should be part of the report.
Yes.
Eric Marsh’s autopsy report is now online at this link…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/w9n6xov9yic9e9k/AADU4g1JbiKkIco0IXFb433Ia/Eric%20Marsh.pdf?dl=0
From that report…
—————————————————————————-
TOXICOLOGY SPECIMENS
Samples of the blood, vitreous flud, bile, urine, spleen, liver,
kidney and psoas muscles are collected and submitted for
toxicological testing.
—————————————————————————-
NOTE: The psoas muscles are centrally located muscles on either side of the lumbar spine.
Yet here is the ENTIRE ‘Toxicology’ report.
Similar list of ‘specimens collected’ in this report ( including Bile, Kidney and Liver ) but absolutely NO mention of any results from the ‘bile’, ‘liver’ or ‘kidney’ samples, and ( curiously enough ) they ARE giving ‘Brain and Lung’ sample results when the ‘TOXICOLOGY SPECIMENS’ section back in the autopsy didn’t even list those as having been ‘collected’.
The entire Toxicology report for Eric Marsh…
————————————————————————
MARICOPA COUNT OFFICE OF THE MEDICAL EXAMINER
REPORT OF TOXICOLOGY EXAMINATION
Case Number: 13-04435
Decedent: ERIC SHANE MARSH
Date Submitted: 07/02/2013
Report Date: 08/02/2013
Specimens Collected: KNOWN HEAD HAIR, NASAL CAVITY SWABS, SUBCUTANEOUS ADIPOSE TISSUE, BLOT/FILTER PAPER, VITREOUS, ILIAC BLOOD, BILE, URINE, SPLEEN, LIVER, PSOAS MUSCLE, KIDNEY, LUNG, BRAIN.
Medical Examiner: VLADIMIR SHVARTS, MD
RESULTS*
* If results are not listed for any specimen(s), that/those specimen(s) is/are deemed to be on “HOLD”.
Vitreous:
None detected for ethanol, methanol, isopropanol and acetone
Iliac Blood:
Positive for Ethyl alcohol 0.03 g%
None detected for methanol, isopropanol, acetone, amphetamine, methamphetamine, phencyclidine, cocain, benzoylecgonine, methadone, morphine, codeine, benzodiazepines, barbituates, anithistamines, phenothiazines, tricyclic antidepressants, fentanyl, oxcycodone, acid neutral drugs and carboxyhemoglobin saturation
Brain and Lung:
Positive by GC/MS for Benzene, Toluene
Urine:
Nonen detected for amphetamine, methamphetamine, phencyclidine, cocaine, methadone, codeine, anithistamines, phenothiazines, and tricyclic antidepressants.
SIGNED: Norman A. Wade
Labratory Director
Jurisdictional Agency: YAVAPAI SO ( Yavapai Sheriff’s Office )
By: svp. Tox. 1/2000, DAWN
————————————————————————
So does the fact that ‘liver’ and ‘bile’ samples WERE ‘collected’, but there is NO MENTION of them in the toxicology involved THIS mysterious *asterisked* statment in the report…
*If results are not listed for any specimen(s), that/those specimen(s) is/are deemed to be on “HOLD”.
Are we supposed to assume, then, that the fact that the report contains no mention of the RESULTS of some ‘samples’ that were collected means it’s because those RESULTS are officially ‘on HOLD’, and ‘still pending’… or something?
What the hell does ‘on HOLD’ mean… and where are THOSE results?
When are they not ‘on HOLD’ anymore?
As with everything else to do with this incident… SOME answers just lead to MORE questions.
It’s like this ongoing game of ‘incompetence’ and “incomplete information”.
This is Chapter 18 of the ongoing discussion.
Direct link to the previous Chapter ( 17 ) is as follows…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/
Thank you . Last chapter took awhile to navigate via cell.
In defense of John Burfiend…
While in the air doing air attack, the crew (pilot and Air Attack Officer” can be totally bombarded by radio traffic depending on the incident.
They may be monitoring:
-tactical channel for that division
-air to ground
-Command Channel
-Repeater to District or Regional co-ordination centre
-Repeater to air tanker base.
-Bombing frequency with other aircraft
-possibly air traffic frequency for the nearest airport
-plus conversations between the pilot and Air Attack as to where they should fly to next.
I do not believe it is fair to automatically conclude that John was ignoring the GM crew. He may have been up to his ear lobes in radio chatter. Due to the nature of this incident a exploding, threatening Yarnell and everything going in the proverbial toilet, I think this may be the case.
Lets give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. There are so many other confirmed major screw ups on this incident, that accusing John on this minor item is not necessary.
In response to Woodsman where he said he wanted to crawl into the plane and say “Answer the damn call”, there are times when you are doing air attack or even bucketing or ignition operations that you feel like broadcasting on all channels “Everyone just STFU for a minute”…
I basically agree with you, here,, rocksteady.
I actually think B33 was doing a terrific job, all things considered.
Which reminds me, now that we’re in this new room.
We left Chapter XVII discussing all the stuff that still needs to be FOIA’d.
I forgot that something else that, imho, is “missing in action” is the Air To Ground radio recordings from the Air Study Crew that I would bet more than my annual income exist somewhere.
I think John Burfiend, under the circumstances mentioned by rocksteady:
“They may be monitoring:
-tactical channel for that division
-air to ground
-Command Channel
-Repeater to District or Regional co-ordination centre
-Repeater to air tanker base.
-Bombing frequency with other aircraft
-possibly air traffic frequency for the nearest airport
-plus conversations between the pilot and Air Attack as to where they should fly to next.”
Air Attack hears EVERYTHING!
Burfiend took all this very hard. It really affected him very deeply because he was the last one to talk to them.
Reply to Robert the Second post on
December 10, 2015 at 1:14 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Air Attack hears EVERYTHING!
We’ve been over this countless times.
Burfiend WAS hearing those MAYDAY calls. ALL of them.
He SAYS he was “copying that traffic” ( TWICE ) in the actual recordings.
He was CHOOSING to not respond for almost 3 minutes, until OPS1 Todd Abel himself couldn’t understand WHY he wasn’t even attempting to ANSWER those calls and OPS1 Todd Abel finally had to ORDER him to respond to those men.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Burfiend took all this very hard. It really affected him very
>> deeply because he was the last one to talk to them.
Real sorry about that. Maybe the ‘constructive’ thing he cold do, then, is be one of the strongest advocates for the WFF industry finally adopting the same MAYDAY radio protocols that everybody else in the world uses.
If there’s any ‘benefit of the doubt’ here… it’s the fact that even with all the yelling on the A2A channel and the desperate attempts to get the ‘Air Attack’ to even RESPOND to them… no one was using any words like ‘MAYDAY’ or ‘EMERGENCY”.
Even so… listen to the recordings and read all the testimony transcripts.
Even without a specific MAYDAY or EMERGENCY word in the transmissions… the ONLY one who was hearing that radio traffic and didn’t seem to realize ( right away ) that this WAS some kind of ’emergency’ was the very person those men were calling… John Burfiend.
Whoops… typo above.
I typed A2A when it should have been A2G.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
If there’s any ‘benefit of the doubt’ here… it’s the fact that even with all the yelling on the A2G channel and the desperate attempts to get the ‘Air Attack’ to even RESPOND to them… no one was using any words like ‘MAYDAY’ or ‘EMERGENCY”.
Followup…
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Burfiend took all this very hard. It really affected him very
>> deeply because he was the last one to talk to them.
Again… sorry about that… but I’m even more ‘sorry’ that he didn’t become the ‘last one to talk to them’ at least 2 minutes and 30 seconds EARLIER that day.
It’s been well discussed and established that those because of those ‘lost’ 2 minutes and 30 seconds following the first MAYDAY from Steed while Burfiend was NOT responding to them… a critical opportunity was lost to find out not only EXACTLY where they were… but (perhaps) more about what the fuck they were actually DOING ‘out there’ or how they got themselves into that predicament.
It’s pretty much a given that even if Burfiend had responded right away and not forced them to waste precious time just trying to get him to respond… it would NOT have led to any kind of ‘retardant drop’ that would have made any kind of a difference in the outcome…
…but that still remains more than 2 minutes and 30 seconds of critical ‘communication’ and/or ‘information exchange’ time that was lost forever… because he wasn’t responding.
If Burfiend HAD responded right away… then whatever ‘information’ might have then been exchanged WOULD have also been recorded by Aaron Hulburd… AND there might not have been that LONG period of time spent ‘searching’ for them because no one knew exactly where the hell they were, even though they had at least 3 minutes to TELL someone exactly where they were… but they had to waste that time just trying to get the Air Attack guy to even answer their radio calls.
By the way… I hope the WFF industry sees the obvious “Lesson Learned” right there as well.
When you are making an EMERGENCY call… or trying to get some guy in an airplane to talk to you.
Do NOT waste precious time waiting for him to say “Go ahead” before supplying critical information.
Your EXACT location should be INCLUDED in your emergency call so that EVERYONE can hear it and it’s not dependent on you waiting for just one guy to answer you ( because be might end up choosing to not answer you until he is ordered to do so ).
Get any/all IMPORTANT information right into the radio callout… right away. It matters.
WTKTT,
Thanks for the clarifications. I listened again. I stand corrected.
I have ALWAYS had a really hard time with all this AA/B33 communication for several reasons.
First, LCES requires that you communicate with your supervisor, crew, and adjoining forces. There is NO ‘requirement’ for communications with Air Attack and the like but there is with your LOOKOUT.
Second, LCES requires a LOOKOUT. AA is a LOOKOUT when you ask them to do that for you. GMHS could have and should have contacted AA and established their location, explained their plan, and their proposed route, etc. They did NOT do this. Being disingenuous.
Third, instead they wait until they are in deep trouble and THEN call for help. WTF!?
Fourth, if you must rely on aircraft to save your life with an airtanker drop or a bucket drop or the one a few years ago when a TLLD rode out INSIDE a helicopter bucket when the pilot told him he was in an unsafe area, then you are in deep shit. It’s likely too late.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2012/10/24/followup-on-firefighters-extraction-from-fire-by-helicopter-water-bucket/
Fifth, I put most of the onus back onto the GMHS and NOT so much on AA.
I agree that GMHS should have used ‘EMERGENCY’ or ‘MAYDAY’ or whatever but they didn’t for whatever reason. Even IF they did, it would NOT ave mattered anyway.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I agree that GMHS should have used
>> ‘EMERGENCY’ or ‘MAYDAY’ or whatever
>> but they didn’t for whatever reason.
The ‘whatever reason’ is because they were not TRAINED to do it… because the WFF industry still has its head up its ass in this regard.
There is no other multi-billion dollar business I can think of where radios are essential to operations that does NOT have an established MAYDAY or EMERGENCY radio protocol.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Even IF they did, it would NOT have
>> mattered anyway.
See comments to Woodsman below.
He used the word ‘outcome’
You’re using the word ‘mattered’.
I’ll repeat what I said below…
If ‘matters’ means… did the wasted 3 minutes and the failure to establish their location prevent a retardant drop that might have saved them… the consensus on that scenario is still “bit fat NO”.
But in any scenario where any of those men *might* have initially survived the burnover but were now out there dying of their wounds or inhalation trauma… it ‘matters’ very much that those 3 minutes were ‘lost’ and that no one had bothered to establish their exact location.
It ain’t just Real Estate where the most important thing is ‘location, location, location’.
If Burfiend had gotten his head out of his ass just 30 seconds earlier then his vague question “So… you’re on the south side of the fire then?” and Marsh’s “Affirm” could have been (quickly) followed with…
Burfiend: We need to know EXACTLY where you are.
Marsh: We’re about 640 yards west of the Boulder Springs Ranch.
It also still boggles my mind that Marsh’s only response to Burfiend finally getting his head out of his ass and finally trying to ascertain their location was the work “Affirm”.
I know the fire was ( by now ) right in front of him and he was barely going to have time to jump into his shelter because Burfiend had wasted those 3 prior minutes ignoring them…
…but if Marsh had time to say “Affirm”… he also had time to say “64o yards west of Ranch”.
Even if Burfiend didn’t really know what that meant… a lot of other people hearing that same radio traffic WOULD have understood what Marsh meant… and it wouldn’t have taken almost 2 fucking hours to find them.
“Lessons to Learn” here just from this one ‘breakout’ situation alone? You damn betcha.
As others are fond of doing…
And another thing ( as long as I’m angry about all of this all over again )…
Just take a laser focus on that one, last final exchange one more time.
An Air Attack finally give people who have been desperately calling him out to him for almost 3 minutes ‘permission to speak to him’.
A Division Supervisor ( and not just some grunt yelling in a radio ) comes back and says…
We’re burning out around ourselves.
We’re going to deploy.
We are probably going to fucking die.
Over to you.
And then all this ‘annoyed’ dimwit in an airplane can think to ask is some vague question like…
“So… you’re on the south side of the fire, then?”
The ONLY thing he should have said in response to this “we’re about to die… how are you?” message from a DIVS was…
Burfiend: Tell me EXACTLY where you are.
And I mean EXACTLY. Over.
WTKTT,
You posted: “But in any scenario where any of those men *might* have initially survived the burnover but were now out there dying of their wounds or inhalation trauma… it ‘matters’ very much that those 3 minutes were ‘lost’ and that no one had bothered to establish their exact location.”
It ain’t just Real Estate where the most important thing is ‘location, location, location’.
I agree completely. Yet it was up to the GMHS, the GMHS’s RESPONSIBILITY to notofy the ATGS/AA of “their exact location.”
See my post below for more details:
Robert the Second says December 10, 2015 at 5:13 pm
Lessons Learned?
It’s a TWO-WAY communication and the GMHS did NOT do their part.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS)
post on December 10, 2015 at 6:12 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It’s a TWO-WAY communication
>> and the GMHS did NOT do their part.
We are in TOTAL agreement on that.
If you read anything I’ve ever had to say about this… you will see that I’m not sure WHICH is ‘more astounding’….
1. That GM spent 3 minutes just trying to get ‘permission’ from some asshole in an airplane who wasn’t responding to them instead of just announcing WHERE they really were so that ANYONE listening would know.
** OR )
2. That some asshole in an airplane was purposely choosing to IGNORE them and was NOT ‘giving them permission’ to speak to him, and NOT trying to OBTAIN the critical ‘location information’ until there wasn’t even enough TIME to get it from them.
Obviously MAYDAY protocols only work when BOTH sides understand how it works.
So yea… it’s a ‘two way street’.
My point is, cause I have been there done that, is that most helicopters or fixed wing will have radios capable of transmitting on 1 freq, while monitoring a 2nd. Most do not have the ability to scan 8 channels at one time.
SOme aircraft I have been in will have 2 separate radios. 1 for pilot (again with 1 transmit, 2nd being guard) and so will the AAO. This only provides for the listening of 4 channels all total, if both radios were set to monitor 4 different freqs. out of the list of possibilities that I listed above.
Even though he says he copied the traffic, he may have been only catching snippets of it, while in conversation with another party on a different channel, finishing that convo before he switched over to the GMIHC call for help…
I have been in situations where the radio is blasting non stop on the channels we were on to the point where you could not break in even if you tried..
I, personally, am not ready to hang AA out to dry, without him giving a statement to investigators.. Hint hint…
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 10, 2015 at 10:33 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> We left Chapter XVII discussing all the stuff that still needs to be FOIA’d
>>.
>> I forgot that something else that, imho, is “missing in action” is
>> the Air To Ground radio recordings from the Air Study Crew that
>> I would bet more than my annual income exist somewhere.
Agree.
It remains ‘not credible’ that they would have been getting paid to do that extensive ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ and NOT have been recording BOTH The A2A and the A2G channels.
Eric Panebaker himself SHOULD have been interviewed by BOTH the SAIT and ADOSH.
He was not. Nor was anyone else on that ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ crew who were obviously monitoring ALL the radio traffic that day over their own handhelds ( because we hear them doing in their own recordings ).
Just add Eric Panebaker ( and the rest of that crew ) to the LONG list of people that SHOULD have been interviewed following this incident… but were NOT.
Exactly.
Reply to rocksteady post on December 10, 2015 at 8:51 am
>> rocksteady said…
>>
>> In defense of John Burfiend…
>>
>> While in the air doing air attack, the crew (pilot and Air Attack
>> Officer” can be totally bombarded by radio traffic depending
>> on the incident.
Yes… “depending on the incident”.
That was NOT the case at “this incident”… at THAT time.
Just moments before the first MAYDAY call from Steed, the A2A ( Air To Air ) radio channel capture has B33 pilot Thomas French TELLING pilot ‘Kevin’ in the VLAT… “We’re alone on the fire right now”… as they were lining up a drop.
Besides… Burfiend was NOT responsible for ‘lead plane’ duties nor was he responsible ( at that time ) for monitoring the entire A2A channel traffic. He and French had decided to SPLIT the ‘double duty’ of being both ‘lead plane’ AND ‘air attack’ because Rory Collins had left the airspace at 3:58 PM because his pilot was ‘timing out’. French had A2A. Burfiend had A2G.
We’ve been over this many times before and every time we revisit this someone says ‘Yeah… but he might have been really busy doing other things”.
He wasn’t.
LISTEN to the recordings.
Burfiend SAYS he was ‘copying that traffic”. TWICE. To OPS1 Todd Abel, and even after saying that ( twice ) he was making no attempt to respond.
He was CHOOSING to not respond for almost 3 minutes.
He ONLY responded when OPS1 Todd Abel ORDERED him to.
Rocksteady,
I will concede the point as I have only heard a small ‘snapshot’ of ATG traffic and therefore don’t know the entire context of what went down that afternoon.
It was the snarky response that hit me wrong. He probably regrets saying it like that. I don’t want to unfairly ream someone.
Woodsman
Woodsman… no need to ‘concede’ anything.
Just prior to the MAYDAY calls… Pilot Thomas French told VLAT pilot Kevin that they were now ‘alone on the fire’. There was NO heavy A2A traffic at all.
And John Burfiend himself SAYS he was ‘copying that traffic’ ( including the initial call from Steed ) right in the captured radio traffic itself.
It wasn’t until almost 3 minutes after the intial callout ( and at least 2 more attempts on GM’s part to get him to answer them ) that OPS1 Todd Abel himself couldn’t understand why Burfiend would say ( twice ) that he WAS ‘copying that traffic’ but was still not even attempting to respond.
After almost 3 minutes… OPS1 Todd Abel had to ORDER John Burfiend to respond to those men.
This is all IN the capture recordings.
Yeah, having regrets about conceding anything with that.
He ignored them. I’m sure he wish he didn’t do that. They were desperately calling out to Air Attack and in obvious distress…thus the screaming that was irritating to Mr. Burfiend. I’ve got a David Clark headset too…it would be loud but there was a reason for that…no one was answering. We can’t change that but maybe there is a small lesson of value there.
I’m not saying that it would necessarily have any effect on the outcome that day. Being a ground guy for so long, the desperation in the traffic from the crew is painful to me…having it go unanswered.
I’m guessing he took it hard because of refusing to answer & not immediately recognizing it as the distress call is was, not just because he was the last one to communicate with them. I would too.
There is way more to this incident than what happened here but since I brought it up and it was refuted, I want to share my honest thoughts about it.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on December 10, 2015 at 3:17 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> He ignored them.
Yes. He did.
Less than 8 seconds after Steed’s first MAYDAY call… OPS1 Todd Abel himself knew IMMEDIATELY that something was ‘bad wrong’ here just from the tone of Steed’s voice… and less than 8 seconds after that FIRST radio call… he called directly to Burfiend saying…
“Bravo 33… are you copying that traffic on Air to Ground?”
Burfiend then proceeded to ignore THAT radio query from OPS1 as well, even though he would admit in the recordings a few minutes later that he HAD been ‘copying that traffic’.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> it would be loud but there was a reason for that…no
>> one was answering.
>>
>> I’m not saying that it would necessarily have any effect
>> on the outcome that day.
Well… when you say ‘outcome’… if you mean whether there would have been time ( given those wasted 3 minutes that might have been used to obtain EXACT location information from GM ) to organize/target/execute a retardant drop on their exact location ( once known )… the consensus is still pretty much a big fat NO.
However… if ‘outcome’ includes the fact that because of the wasted 3 minutes and the inablity to establish their exact location… it then took almost 2 hours to ascertain THAT important piece of information… then YES… what actually happened DID have an ‘effect on the outcome’ that day.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> maybe there is a small lesson of value there.
There is no ‘small’ about it.
I have always maintained there is a HUGE ‘lesson of value’ sitting right there like a turd on a coffee table with regards to this botched MAYDAY sequence.
If those recordings didn’t prove that is IMPERATIVE for the WFF business to finally get their heads out of their asses and establish/implement/mandate a common MAYDAY / EMERGENCY radio protocol like everyone ELSE who uses radios has had for a long, long time now… then I don’t know what would.
Taking the ‘Lesson to Learn’ thing on this alone a little farther…
Here’s some big WHAT IF’S… but follow me for a moment.
What if that deployment zone had been about 6 times the size it was, and they had had even just a little more time to ‘clean it’.
What if most of them had simply just been badly burned and unable to respond post-deployment, or unconscious due to smoke/heat inhalation.
Because GM botched up those radio calls and had no established MAYDAY protocol to fall back on… and because John Burfiend himself botched up that final radio exchange… it STILL would have taken the same 2 hours or so to even FIND them even if they had actually survived the burnover ( but were now incapacitated ).
How much more important do you think those 3 wasted minutes we can now hear with own ears would have become if there had been ANY evidence that SOME of those men had survived the initial burnover… but then ended up dying, anyway, because no one knew where they were and the final 3 minutes of radio contact had been wasted just trying to get some guy in an airplane to even answer them?
Only when OPS1 Todd Abel finally ORDERED Burfiend to respond did he even begin to do what he should have been doing for the previous 3 minutes.
Ascertain their exact LOCATION.
But still ( with time running completely out now ), all Burfiend could think to ask for a ‘ballpark estimate’… as in…
“So… you’re on the south side of the fire, then?”
Marsh only had time to say “Affirm” at this point.
If that question had been asked even only 30 seconds earlier… it could have been followed with…
Burfiend: I need to know EXACTLY where you are.
Marsh: We are about 640 yards west of the Boulder Springs Ranch.
That would have saved upwards of 2 hours of searching and, in the hypothetical scenario of any of them having actually still been alive for a little while after the burnover… it would have SAVED LIVES.
So yea… there is no SMALL “Lesson to Learn” here in this ‘breakout’ situation from that tragic day.
There is still a HUGE ‘Lesson to Learn” here for both ground and air forces that COULD save lives in a similar situation.
That’s one of the ongoing things about this tragedy.
People think it is ALL about just finding out ( as best as possible ) what led GM to being where they were, when they were.
Yes… that’s still of ‘uber importance’… but there are ( and have always been ) these other ‘breakout’ situations that are offering their own “Lessons to Learn” that could, potentially, save lives in the future…
…and they are all still worth talking about.
WTKTT;
Agreed! Great job!!!
Woodsman
I have always thought the GMH were found soon after the smoke cleared enough for the helicopter to get in the proximity of the deployment site.
Reply to calvin post on
December 10, 2015 at 4:59 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> I have always thought the GMH were
>> found soon after the smoke cleared
>> enough for the helicopter to get in the
>> proximity of the deployment site.
The “M- Law Enforcement – no redactions.pdf” document in the public evidence record confirms that DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 didn’t even spot what looked like ‘shelters’ on the ground until approximately 1810 ( 6:10 PM ).
Ranger 58 made two ( aborted ) attempts to land directly by the shelters they spotted ( and probably severely ‘disturbed’ the deployment site evidence with the rotor wash ), and then ‘backed off’ and searched for a place to land over by the Boulder Springs Ranch.
At approximately 1814 ( 6:14 PM ), Ranger 58 landed in a clearing just to the north of the BSR ( by that cattle pond ) and DPS Medic Eric Tarr began a +600 yard hike towards the deployment site to try and verify if that’s where ALL the firefighters really were.
It wasn’t until 1835 ( 6:35 PM ) that DPS Medic Tarr was finally able to VERIFY that all 19 firefighters were, in fact, at that location they spotted from the air and that there was no need for any ‘medical attention’.
So that’s just 4 minutes shy of 2 full hours from the time of Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY call at 1639 ( 4:39 PM ) and the final verification of where they were ALL ‘located’ at 1835 ( 6:35 PM ).
Lessons Learned?
LCES
C – COMMUNICATIONS – ‘MAINTAIN PROMPT COMMUNICATIONS WITH YOU SUPERVISOR, CREW, AND ADJOINING FORCES.’
It was up to GMHS to notify AA/B33 of their location and intent and could have easily done that BEFORE they were in deep shit.
They have their own AA Fire Orders:
ATGS (AA) Fire Orders
The following ATGS (AA) Fire Orders highlight the most critical responsibilities and concerns of the Air Tactical Group Supervisor. Strictly adhere to these time tested orders. They will guarantee an effective and safe air operation.
A – Assign air resources based on fire size-up, hazard assessment, resource capability and tactical plans.
T – Terminate aviation operations that are unsafe or ineffective.
G – Guarantee flight safety by practicing good radio frequency management and air space management.
S – Strictly adhere to and enforce agency policies, FARs and standard operating procedures.
F – Fight fire aggressively but provide for safe ground and air operations.
I – Inform Operations when tactics are completed, ineffective or unsafe – recommend other options.
R – RECOGNIZE AND ALERT GROUND PERSONNEL OF FIRE CONDITIONS AND AIR OPERATIONS THAT MAY JEOPARDIZE FF SAFETY (“YOU ARE THE EYES IN THE SKY!”)
E – Ensure instructions are clear, accurate and expressed in standard terms.
O – Organize air tactical operations to provide continuous supervised air tactical support.
R – REQUIRE CONTINUOUS COMMUNICATIONS WITH GROUND PERSONNEL AND ASSIGNED AIR RESOURCES.
D – Determine and assign safe flight routes and patterns with adequate vertical and horizontal separation.
E – Establish communications procedures to ensure good coordination, positive aircraft separation and flight safety.
R – Remain in control of all air resources at all times.
S – Stay alert, keep calm, think clearly and act decisively
The ATGS Watch Outs include two that are especially relevant to the YH Fire:
7. POOR OR INTERMITTENT COMMUNICATIONS WITH GROUND RESOURCES and other air resources.
8. GROUND RESOURCES ARE NOT CONTINUOUSLY MONITORING AND COMMUNICATING ON THE TACTICAL AIR-TO-GROUND FREQUENCY.
It’s up to the ground resources, i.e. GMHS to establish communications with the ATGS/AA FIRST using a combination of radio, signal mirror, flagging on a tool, whatever. It is NOT up to THE ATGS/AA to READ THEIR MINDS OR ASSUME SOMEONE IS HERE OR THERE OR WHATEVER.
“R – RECOGNIZE AND ALERT GROUND PERSONNEL OF FIRE CONDITIONS AND AIR OPERATIONS THAT MAY JEOPARDIZE FF SAFETY (“YOU ARE THE EYES IN THE SKY!”)”
As far as EVERYONE knew, the GMHS were “ON THE RIDGE, IN THE BLACK, IN GOOD BLACK”and told to “HUNKER AND BE SAFE” by OPS. GMHS did NOT contact AA/B33 to let them know anything UNTIL they were in deep shit.
“R – REQUIRE CONTINUOUS COMMUNICATIONS WITH GROUND PERSONNEL AND ASSIGNED AIR RESOURCES.”
See above, regarding the other ‘R.’
And the Watch Outs?
“7. POOR OR INTERMITTENT COMMUNICATIONS WITH GROUND RESOURCES and other air resources.”
“8. GROUND RESOURCES ARE NOT CONTINUOUSLY MONITORING AND COMMUNICATING ON THE TACTICAL AIR-TO-GROUND FREQUENCY.”
That is EXACTLY what was occurring!
Sorry, I am NOT going to concede on any of these, however, I will admit ATGS/AA/B33 could have and should have done a better job getting back to them a bit quicker
As far as “other ‘breakout’ situations that are offering their own “Lessons to Learn” that could, potentially, save lives in the future… and they are all still worth talking about – definitely establish some type of emergency response protocol (I think MAYDAY is reserved for aircraft only? but not sure). Mainly, FOLLOW THE WFF RULES – LCES – TEN STANDARD FIRE ORDERS – WATCH OUT SITUATIONS = ETC.
And we must recall that Gary Cordes KNEW the GMHS was heading for the BSR. He told TFLD(T_ Tyson Esquibel to take two engines and meet GMHS coming down (paraphrasing)
And yet we never him him on the radio directing anyone to their KNOWN location
A Holloway Fire VIMEO video clip test
http://vimeo.com/48411010
Looks like SOP. Slevees up, no gloves. This video does not represent emergency saving of GMH buggies. Right?
It works!
This is a VIMEO video clip of a Contract Type 6 Engine Crew where they “save Granite Mountain’s buggies.”
http://vimeo.com/48411010
Turn off the volume so the music does not distract you. At 02:26 you see the Contract Engine Crew squirting water on hot-spots and active fire, then it pans right and you see a slopver and/or spot fire over the line about 20
feet or so from one of GMHS crew carriers.
Beginning at about 02″54 you will seen in upper mid frame a WFF with black helmet (GMHS!?) running down the slope and fireline toward the carriers until about 03:00.
Just freeze-frame from 2:54 to 3:00 for much better viewing.
This WFF was presumably the GMHS lookout? yet they left no one to actually guard them in the likely event of something like this whan one parks in the unburned next to a hot perimeter.
Fire Order #3 – Base all actions on current and expected fire behavior.
Calvin,
There may be other portions of the video where the WFF have “Sleves up, no gloves” however, it the video clip from 02:36 to 0303 when the Contract Engine Crew is working hotline with their hose, they are CEARLY wearing proper PPE, properly – sleeves DOWN and gloves ON. Watch it again and freeze frame it.
Rts. Just imagine the video Brian Frisby could have taken when he was in the green picking up McDonough? Also. Per memory. The BRH were planning to burn out around themselves if they were trapped. According to SAIR?
Calvin,
“… Just imagine the video Brian Frisby could have taken when he was in the green picking up McDonough? There are some of McDonough photos in the IM Dropbox showing some very active fire behavior. He waited WAY TOO LONG to get out of there. AND his GMHS buddies in their SZ above him could/should have told nim long before that he was going to hit his trigger point and needed to get out of there. Very caviler safety attitude as far as I am concerned.
“Also. Per memory. The BRH were planning to burn out around themselves if they were trapped. According to SAIR?”
NOT so from what I know and from the SAIR. I just searched the SAIR again and found NO reference to that.
Did you review the VIMEO video clip again to verify that the Contract Engine Crew was in fact wearing ALL thier PPE at the time they were ‘saving Granite Mountains buggies”?
Rts. Yes. The engine guys do appear to be wearing proper ppe when spraying water around the gm buggies. But not throughout the video. Like when you see the video Grapher not wearing his safety helmet. But I will stop arguing these small points. I do remember reading that the BRH SZ was on highway 89, or burn out around themselves, or their buggies. But honestly, I can not remember where that was stated.